00:00:04 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:01:15 <Sgeo> colorForth hasn't been touched since 2001?
00:01:53 <oerjan> OBVIOUSLY THAT'S WHEN IT REACHED PERFECTION
00:02:37 <Sgeo> The instructions for using colorForth want me to boot into DOS and ... hmm, this should be doable.
00:02:41 <Sgeo> The question is, is it worth it?
00:04:32 <elliott> pikhq: http://ezusb.free.fr/compo/shots/fractal.png This fit into a boot sector.
00:07:04 <pikhq> Sgeo: Well, you could load up DOSemu.
00:07:21 <Sgeo> pikhq, anything wrong with booting Win98 into DOS mode?
00:07:25 <elliott> dd if=COLOR.COM of=/dev/fd0
00:07:45 <Sgeo> I thought COLOR.COM would write stuff to the fd
00:07:47 <elliott> Or just of=floppy.img and then putting that in a VM.
00:07:55 <elliott> Or just putting COLOR.COM as the floppy in a VM.
00:08:02 <pikhq> Sgeo: Well, DOSemu is better and more awesome.
00:08:21 <elliott> You would need a full x86 emulator.
00:08:43 <pikhq> elliott: The question is, will it work in virtual 8086 mode?
00:09:39 <pikhq> (hint: DOSemu != DOSbox)
00:10:19 <Sgeo> "You must start COLOR.COM under DOS. It is an operating system, and takes over the computer. You can then write a bootable floppy. Alternatively, Unix can copy COLOR.COM to a bootable floppy with cp or dd.
00:10:24 <Sgeo> DUR, I need to learn to read
00:10:33 <elliott> Sgeo will give up on colorForth as soon as he sees that it uses a variant of Dvorak.
00:10:41 <elliott> DOSBox would probably work because it emulates full x86.
00:10:52 <pikhq> elliott: DOSemu actually uses a full x86.
00:11:06 <elliott> Sgeo: Just set COLOR.COM as floppy image in VirtualBox or similar. actually qemu.
00:11:11 <pikhq> As it's just sufficient virtualisation to use virtual 8086 mode.
00:11:21 <Sgeo> I'm too lazy to play with qemu now
00:11:32 <pikhq> (on x86-64 it uses a 16-bit x86 emulator instead)
00:12:01 <Sgeo> VirtualBox wants COLOR.COM to be in some format
00:12:23 <Sgeo> *some format that it understands
00:12:39 <elliott> http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=14089 maybe just scenesters could get forth in 512B
00:13:30 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:13:36 <elliott> "My forth OS so far is going pretty well but running out of space fast(now at 470 bytes)..
00:13:37 <elliott> It will print `ok` at the end of commands. It supports a stack of 4096 bytes. It supports the standard +,-,@,and ! words/operators. Also, I put in 2 extensions for `^` and `&` for writing and reading the current segment data will be writtent o(respectively)"
00:13:41 <elliott> Doesn't sound like a proper compiler...
00:14:18 <pikhq> Insufficient immediate words!
00:15:22 <Sgeo> colorForth is infinitely valuable, apparently
00:15:29 <elliott> Does colorForth even have immediate words?
00:15:50 <elliott> Sgeo: Floppy images have no format.
00:15:56 <elliott> Sgeo: Try padding it out to 1.44M.
00:16:14 <Sgeo> elliott, right now, I'm going to run it under Win98's DOS
00:16:18 <oerjan> now: sloTH, the forth variant where _nothing_ is immediate
00:16:31 <elliott> dd if=/dev/zero of=floppy.img count=2880
00:16:38 <elliott> dd if=COLOR.COM of=floppy.img conv=notrunc
00:17:23 <pikhq> elliott: Hmm, I don't think it does. Though, obviously, its use of color is semantically equivalent to the one necessary for Forth.
00:17:36 <Sgeo> Just did COLOR.COM
00:17:39 <Sgeo> The graphics went weird
00:17:47 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, it has : built in as colour...
00:18:01 <Sgeo> The VirtualBox logo, horribly distorted
00:18:26 * Sgeo gives up for now
00:19:16 <Sgeo> I'm too tired to play with that now
00:19:17 <elliott> please do not waste my time by giving the impression that you're finding any advice useful if you're not going to follow it.
00:20:04 <pikhq> Sgeo: qemu is a very good emulator, and it behooves you to have it.
00:20:13 <pikhq> Also, I ♥ the word "behooves".
00:20:33 <Sgeo> Isn't VirtualBox based off of qemu slightly?
00:20:39 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:21:20 <pikhq> Sgeo: It'd be a GPL violation for VirtualBox to be based off of qemu, as there is a proprietary version of VirtualBox.
00:23:00 <pikhq> Also, I'd imagine that Bellard's work wouldn't integrate well with the more bureaucratic stuff coming out of Sun.
00:23:27 <Sgeo> qemu is Linux-only?
00:23:48 <Sgeo> Erm, there's a Windows port
00:23:54 <Sgeo> I don't know how up to date it is
00:24:07 <Sgeo> "Stops updating.(2007/03/10)
00:24:07 <Sgeo> Thank you for your help."
00:24:13 <pikhq> It builds on Windows in mingw just fine, IIRC.
00:24:30 <Sgeo> http://homepage3.nifty.com/takeda-toshiya/qemu/
00:24:49 <pikhq> http://wiki.qemu.org/Download Here, have something useful.
00:25:04 <pikhq> Only real dependencies are GCC and SDL.
00:25:26 <Sgeo> I don't know if my MinGW is non-borked
00:25:37 <elliott> http://homepage3.nifty.com/takeda-toshiya/qemu/qemu-0.13.0-windows.zip would work fine...
00:26:03 <elliott> pikhq: Ha ha @ thinking Sgeo knows how to use a C compiler.
00:26:19 <elliott> (OK, s/knows how to use/will use/ for some incomprehensible reason.)
00:26:21 <Sgeo> elliott, in Linux, I'm comfortable enough...
00:27:08 <pikhq> Congrats. You can use a C toolchain anywhere.
00:27:16 <elliott> Exactly the freakin' same as Linux.
00:27:22 <elliott> If you have MSYS, it's even bash.
00:27:31 <Sgeo> I may have screwed up my copy of MinGW
00:27:34 <elliott> cd foo; ./configure; make.
00:27:35 <pikhq> The C build environment is very similar pretty much everywhere; it's pretty much defined as "what UNIX does".
00:27:36 <Sgeo> Trying to get various things to work
00:28:02 <elliott> pikhq: Unless you use VISUAL STUUUUDIOOOOOOO
00:28:05 <pikhq> ... You, sir, fail at computers. I hereby ban you from ever touching anything with more than two transistors.
00:28:15 <pikhq> elliott: Even there it ships with a make.
00:28:30 <pikhq> Okay, true, nmake sucks ass.
00:28:36 <elliott> Sgeo: How on earth can you screw up MinGW?
00:28:51 <elliott> cp /dev/null mingw.exe? That can't be it, Windows has no /dev/null.
00:28:52 <Sgeo> By installing Git Bash?
00:28:59 <elliott> http://homepage3.nifty.com/takeda-toshiya/qemu/qemu-0.13.0-windows.zip
00:29:05 <Sgeo> elliott, I downloaded it
00:29:23 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
00:30:03 <Sgeo> Maybe I should read QEMU documentation before playing with it...
00:30:17 <pikhq> Maybe you should read a man page. Like a real man.
00:31:27 * pikhq should kill people who use "womyn" seriously.
00:31:46 <elliott> Sgeo: qemu -fda color.com -vga std. If you can't make that work, pray and perhaps god will have mercy on your soul.
00:32:25 <Sgeo> I wasn't planning on playing with colorForth just yet, but ok
00:33:19 <pikhq> Dear *God* you morons, Indo-European languages have gender neutral/male and female words. Now SUCK IT UP AND ACCEPT THAT "MEN" IS GENDER NEUTRAL AND HAS BEEN SINCE BEFORE THERE WAS FREAKING WRITING IN EUROPE.
00:33:39 <pikhq> Oh, and make me a sandwich. :P
00:34:10 <Sgeo> elliott, blackness
00:35:23 <elliott> pikhq: Still, those who complain about gender-neutral terms because they're "stupid" ignore the fact that it does have a definite subconscious effect...
00:35:28 <elliott> Of course "woman" is perfectly fine.
00:35:42 <elliott> It does not derive from the word man-as-in-man, after all.
00:35:42 <Sgeo> elliott, not working
00:36:36 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
00:36:51 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq: Still, those who complain about gender-neutral terms because they're "stupid" ignore the fact that it does have a definite subconscious effect...
00:36:52 <elliott> <elliott> Of course "woman" is perfectly fine.
00:36:52 <elliott> <elliott> It does not derive from the word man-as-in-man, after all.
00:37:00 <pikhq_> elliott: Many of those gender-neutral forms are really, insanely awkward though.
00:37:27 <elliott> pikhq_: You should read this. http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html
00:37:46 <pikhq_> Think "he or she" instead of "he" or trying to replace gender-neutral use of "men" in phrases such as "All men are created equal".
00:38:10 <elliott> Also, while "men" there is gender-neutral in origin, the word "men" is _not_ gender neutral today.
00:38:12 <pikhq_> Yeah, there's an annoying one.
00:38:21 <elliott> pikhq_: What, singular "they"?
00:38:26 <elliott> I use it all the time, it is perfectly acceptable.
00:38:31 <elliott> Shakespeare used it for god's sake.
00:38:40 <elliott> Seriously, read http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html.
00:39:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:41:32 <coppro> I prefer Spivak pronouns myself though
00:41:41 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:42:25 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
00:42:40 <pikhq_> elliott: Okay, finished reading.
00:43:42 <elliott> I find it's a very good article to expose people's unrealised cognitive biases...
00:44:09 <Sgeo> Lubuntu boots slowly in qemu...
00:44:46 -!- copumpkin has joined.
00:46:14 <pikhq_> elliott: Decent piece of rhetoric, pitiful for making a rational case.
00:46:43 <elliott> It is actually a satire of (the late) William Safire's corresponding view on gender-neutral language.
00:47:10 <elliott> Anyway, it is surely not intended to convince outright; it is intended only to expose unknown biases, because without that knowledge it is pointless to try and debate.
00:47:23 <pikhq_> And at that, it certainly does an admirable job.
00:49:41 <elliott> pikhq_: As far as I'm concerned, consider if people with blue eye colour were referred to as blues, and people with green eye colour (let's assume these are the only two eye colours for this line) were keblues, but that both of these derived from the eye-colour-neutral word "blue" in a previous language. And consider also that there was a long, long history of discrimination against and inequality for keblues, and that almost every word referring
00:49:41 <elliott> to a person in some way brought up their eye colour in this way...
00:49:57 <elliott> What the word meant in the past is irrelevant compared to what it means today.
00:49:58 <Sgeo> Is QEMU 0.11.1 acceptable?
00:50:20 <elliott> Obviously this cannot be fixed outright in English. But where its solution is not jarring -- for instance the perfectly-cromulent singular they -- it is recommendable.
00:50:32 <elliott> There is no need to distinguish any property in pronouns.
00:50:54 <Sgeo> Yes, I'm actually going to use a GUI with Qemu
00:52:06 <pikhq_> elliott: I assert that changing the language in the name of diminishing inequality does not in any way affect *actual* inequality, and is as such little more than a exercise in navel-gazing.
00:52:26 <elliott> But it is an inequality in and of itself.
00:52:52 <elliott> pikhq_: It's been shown that the default choice of "he" leads to this kind of male-centrism... if an even-female author started fleshing out and writing dialogue for a character with no yet-decided gender, you could bet that if you asked her what her impression of eir gender is, she would respond "male".
00:52:57 <elliott> Consider Hofstadter, the author of that piece I linked.
00:53:01 <pikhq_> A fairly minor and inconsequential one, perhaps.
00:53:13 <elliott> In Gödel, Escher, Bach there is a turtle, in the Achilles/Turtle dialogues.
00:53:31 <elliott> There is nothing whatsoever in the book to suggest e is male apart from the automatic use of the pronoun "he" -- which, let's say, is neutral, because that is the position.
00:54:11 <elliott> Yet when the French translator of the book asked Hofstadter if they could change the turtle's gender, for in French the word "turtle" is feminine (or something of that sort) and as such a male turtle character would be exceedingly torturous to write without seeming awkward -- this surprised Hofstadter immensely.
00:54:42 <elliott> As we can see, the default of "he" assigned a character's gender to be male when there was no inherent reason for them to be either male or female, and this notion got cemented.
00:54:45 <elliott> So there is a real inequality.
00:55:46 <pikhq_> Does changing the language in this manner affect more notable issues, such as the difference in male/female pay, or the rather pitiful presence of females in politics, engineering, science, math, etc.?
00:56:24 <variable> at least in experimental studies where people were asked to use gender neutral terms were more likely to
00:56:49 <variable> rate people equally at a task than if they used gender specific terms (even female specific terms)
00:57:11 <pikhq_> Ah. Well, then, perhaps we *should* strive to engender a more gender-neutral language.
00:57:43 <pikhq_> elliott: I felt obligated.
00:58:09 <variable> pikhq_: I attempt to use gender neutral terms when able. However there are times when it is purely awkward to do so
00:58:42 <variable> and I won't use words like "xe" unless they become mainstream
00:59:22 * pikhq_ still insists on singular informal "thou". :P
01:00:25 <variable> pikhq_: by the way - while said tendency to rate different based on gender is global -- the particular traits are culture specific
01:00:50 <pikhq_> variable: Well, yes, that would make sense; it'd probably be based upon cultural gender rôles.
01:01:06 <variable> pikhq_: sort of - its actually based on language & gender roles
01:01:19 <variable> (let me type for a sec - this is a bit long)
01:04:21 <variable> for example: In English nouns have no gender - and as such English speakers associate neutral traits with the word "chair". However Hebrew speakers associated male traits with the word "כסא" because it is a male noun. However people were more likely to associate _gender_ with gender roles. Meaning that English speakers were more likely to call "kitchen" a "feminine" but were NOT likely associate "feminine" traits [ I'm not sure where this
01:04:21 <variable> list came from - but things like "warm" "caring" "loving" ] with "kitchen"
01:04:24 <Sgeo> QEMU seems to be _slow_
01:05:37 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Do you have hardware virtualisation?
01:05:58 <Sgeo> ...I didn't realize it could be off
01:06:05 <elliott> pikhq_: kqemu is linux onl
01:06:21 <Sgeo> elliott, QEMU Manager has an option to install KQEMU
01:06:38 <pikhq_> KQEMU is for Linux and Windows.
01:06:45 <variable> elliott: its for FreeBSD as well
01:06:57 <variable> pikhq_: did my wall-of-text above make sense?
01:06:57 <Sgeo> Is 0.11 significantly slower that 0.13?
01:07:00 <elliott> variable: Let's pretend I left it out just to troll you.
01:07:17 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Believe it or not, software emulation is pretty much always slow.
01:07:37 <pikhq_> variable: That... Makes quite a bit of sense.
01:07:44 <Sgeo> VMware seems to be speedy with Lubuntu...
01:08:28 <Sgeo> QEMU Manager doesn't seem to like fullscreen
01:08:31 * Sgeo gets pissed off
01:09:02 <elliott> pikhq_: VirtualBox's x86 emulation is faster than hardware virt. circa 2007 IIRC
01:09:23 * Sgeo gives up for now
01:09:25 <pikhq_> elliott: Uh, Imma call bull.
01:09:40 <variable> pikhq_: I recall some experiments relating to gender neutral words and assumptions about whether the characters in the story were male/female. Problem is that I don't remember anything else :)
01:09:45 <elliott> pikhq_: VB's x86 emulation is stupidly optimised.
01:09:59 <variable> that said - changing language in such a manner is *hard*
01:10:20 <pikhq_> elliott: Its x86 "emulation" is almost certainly executing user-mode code directly.
01:10:23 <variable> elliott: stupidly optimized == very good or very bad ?
01:10:42 <pikhq_> And as such doesn't work outside of x86.
01:10:53 <elliott> [[Since 2006, Intel and AMD processors have had support for so-called "hardware virtualization". This means that these processors can help VirtualBox to intercept potentially dangerous operations that a guest operating system may be attempting and also makes it easier to present virtual hardware to a virtual machine.]]
01:11:05 <variable> modern emulators just trap syscalls but run usermoe code directly
01:11:28 <variable> elliott: all that means is that it is running as the hypervisor and intercepting syscalls
01:11:31 <pikhq_> variable: qemu doesn't.
01:12:00 <variable> pikhq_: I'm not very familiar with qemu - but that would make it *much* slower than vbox
01:12:16 <elliott> Qemu is ridiculously slow but ridiculously accurate.
01:12:18 <pikhq_> qemu can't, really — it's a platform-independent emulator.
01:12:22 <elliott> Only Bochs can compete in slowness and accuracy :P
01:12:36 <elliott> Yeah, qemu's portability is the thing.
01:13:47 <pikhq_> Not to mention it emulates a variety of CPUS.
01:14:25 <pikhq_> The list is... x86, x86-64, MIPS, SPARC, ARM, SH4, PPC, CRIS, and MicroBlaze.
01:14:35 <pikhq_> (not all of them are whole-system emulators)
01:15:58 <zzo38> I have used Bochs.
01:16:22 <zzo38> (Bochs won't work if you assign only one megabyte of memory, you need to assign at least two megabytes of memory to make it work?)
01:16:48 <pikhq_> elliott: Uh, yes, it does, just not whole-system emulation.
01:17:08 <pikhq_> Hmm, I'm also seeing an m68k emulator here.
01:18:16 <pikhq_> Gotta love userspace emulation.
01:27:27 <elliott> 14:21:42 <fizzie> U+23E5 FLATNESS: ⏥. Certainly, that is the concept of flatness, compressed into a single symbol.
01:27:27 <elliott> 14:21:54 <ehird> fizzie: That’s not… well… flat.
01:27:27 <elliott> 14:22:01 <ehird> It’s poking upwards.
01:27:27 <elliott> 14:22:11 <fizzie> You probably have to just look at it in the right way.
01:27:28 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
01:27:28 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host).
01:27:28 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
01:28:10 <elliott> 14:22:21 <fizzie> Become one with the flatness, you know.
01:30:55 <elliott> 14:32:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the bash builtin time is more accurate
01:30:55 <elliott> 14:32:48 <AnMaster> three decimals
01:30:55 <elliott> 14:33:00 <Deewiant> Oh noes the inaccuracy!!
01:30:55 <elliott> 14:33:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for cfunge it matters. it is so quick
01:30:59 <elliott> 14:33:15 <Deewiant> I knew you'd say that
01:30:59 <elliott> 14:33:18 <Deewiant> And you're wrong
01:30:59 <elliott> 14:33:24 <Deewiant> It doesn't matter, precisely because it is so quick
01:31:01 <elliott> 14:33:37 <Deewiant> If you get to the point that the wall clock time is 0.00s... you're done
01:31:02 <elliott> 14:33:48 <Deewiant> All you have to do then is get a slower computer :-P
01:37:44 <zzo38> I do not have the font for U+23E5 in my computer
01:45:00 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:45:14 -!- pikhq has joined.
01:52:12 -!- yorick has joined.
01:53:00 -!- azaq23 has joined.
02:00:23 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:10:05 <ominovorol> "<elliott> There is no need to distinguish any property in pronouns." <<< it makes a good point
02:10:28 <elliott> ominovorol: hey i wouldn't mind a language where people are referred to as the it equivalent
02:12:08 <Sgeo> What does Lojban do? Refers to earlier in the ... sentence-equivent structure, I think?
02:12:11 <Sgeo> I barely remember
02:12:16 <Sgeo> tswett, you here?
02:14:04 <ominovorol> "<pikhq_> Aaaand another B on a math test, simply because I have little ability to pay attention to small details." worst typoing of "suck" i've ever seen
02:17:00 <elliott> 07:47:08 <Deewiant> Haha 'I only use Gentoo with -fbroken-math, -fno-stack, and -finfinite-loops.'
02:17:00 <elliott> 07:47:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, who?
02:17:00 <elliott> 07:47:31 <AnMaster> also that is a joke obviously
02:17:01 <elliott> 07:47:42 <ais523> what would -finfinite-loops do, anyway?
02:17:01 <elliott> 07:47:49 <ais523> the other two I can sort of guess
02:17:01 <elliott> 07:47:51 <Deewiant> It inlines finite loops
02:17:15 <elliott> infinite loops then become truly infinite in the generated code.
02:18:22 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
02:18:31 <elliott> 07:57:38 <Deewiant> AMD64 I can understand, x86_64 I can't.
02:18:31 <elliott> 07:57:56 <Deewiant> Nor the banal x64.
02:19:00 <ominovorol> "<Phantom_Hoover> What happened was that I confronted a teacher about some dubious claims she had made to my parents, which resulted in them phoning my parents directly and making even *more* dubious claims (read: lies)." <<< aren't you in high school?
02:23:08 <ominovorol> "<elliott> ominovorol: hey i wouldn't mind a language where people are referred to as the it equivalent" <<< in finnish, people usually say it for people
02:23:33 <elliott> ominovorol: now i'm even more indecisive about learning trollspeak (finns) vs moonspeak (japs) :(
02:23:52 <ominovorol> japanese is all about making a difference between living and nonliving things
02:24:33 <ominovorol> "<elliott> why?" <<< calling parents in high school?!? that would never happen in finland
02:24:48 <ominovorol> i mean come on, no one lives at home in high school
02:24:48 <elliott> <ominovorol> japanese is all about making a difference between living and nonliving things
02:25:04 -!- pikhq has joined.
02:25:36 <ominovorol> pikhq: would you agree that japanese makes a very clear distinction between living and nonliving things
02:25:41 -!- ominovorol has changed nick to oklopol.
02:26:01 <oklopol> i may be completely wrong about things like this, having inferred them form rather few examples
02:26:24 <elliott> oklopol: it totally reflects the cold impersonal nature of finns
02:26:26 <elliott> and loving, warm nature of japs
02:26:57 <oklopol> personally i couldn't care less if my own brother died of cancer
02:27:02 <oklopol> i would be a bit surprised ofc
02:28:08 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:28:48 <pikhq> oklopol: The language? Little bit of difference between humans and anything else.
02:29:12 <oklopol> oh also i occasionally say "he" for nonliving things
02:29:13 <pikhq> Most obviously, "iru" is used for humans and "aru" for everything else.
02:29:56 <elliott> 09:42:02 <fizzie> Heh, the likelyhasbetween(x,m,n) macro in http://www-graphics.stanford.edu/~seander/bithacks.html#HasBetweenInWord is by mooz.
02:30:04 <oklopol> something about "ni" has also given me a very livingness-aware feeling of the language
02:30:12 <pikhq> oklopol: Uh, how so?
02:30:38 <oklopol> maybe that'll be easier to answer once someone actually teaches me how ni is used :)
02:30:58 <pikhq> It, like all of the other grammatical particles, has a lot of use.
02:31:04 <oklopol> currently i seem to get sentences right if i just use "ni" for absolutely everything with humans.
02:31:29 <oklopol> like "ni" for both giving to and receiving from
02:32:01 <pikhq> Yeah, you're not getting the full idea of its semantics.
02:32:19 <oklopol> as i said, guessing from rather few examples :)
02:32:39 <pikhq> http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar Here. Read.
02:32:45 <oklopol> i'm learning kanji now, and i've learned some vocab, will start learning grammar on my own once my thesis is finished
02:32:48 <elliott> 10:04:17 <fizzie> Quite a large program, if there were 18446744073709551522 non-space elements on row 0.
02:32:48 <elliott> 10:05:14 <fizzie> Something like... 10 % larger than Mycology, eh?
02:33:36 <oklopol> the agent thing can just be used for humans, and it's very flexible in that case
02:33:57 <Ilari> With the depletion rate in last two months (46 058 240 addresses in 59 days), APNIC would deplete in about 2.5 months (mid May). Ugh.
02:34:03 <oklopol> (this is not from examples, this is from a grammar)
02:34:35 <pikhq> oklopol: Tae Kim is the only Japanese grammar I've run into that I don't despise for blatantly lying at you.
02:34:36 <oklopol> so probably the answer is no
02:34:40 <pikhq> RTK = Remembering The Kanji.
02:34:53 <elliott> pikhq: link me to that tae kim thing later
02:35:05 <oklopol> well no not that one, i'm using flashcards
02:35:11 <elliott> go through rtk ... stuff...
02:35:18 <elliott> oklopol: erm i think rtk is to be used in conjunction with cards...
02:35:19 <pikhq> oklopol: Flashcards and RTK are not even vaguely exclusive.
02:35:24 <elliott> rather than just rote memorisation
02:35:32 <pikhq> In fact, flashcards are expected.
02:35:32 <elliott> which is obviously ineffective even to a moron like me :)
02:35:56 <Ilari> 28th, NTT allocate a /9(!!!) from APNIC. One fairly rarely sees blocks of that size.
02:36:16 <pikhq> oklopol: And RTK will probably take you a month or two.
02:36:50 <pikhq> For, uh, the whole thing.
02:37:08 <pikhq> elliott: RTK 1 + 3 is 3,000.
02:37:15 <elliott> it's sumthin' 'bout decomposin' teh kanjis
02:37:20 <pikhq> Lemme check the exact figure.
02:37:31 <oklopol> 3007 is how many i have in the flash card set
02:37:45 <pikhq> Some 2042 in here.
02:37:57 <Ilari> Wonder if APNIC will deplete before world IPv6 day. At least before it depletes, it will make mincemeat out of IPv4 DFZ routing table.
02:38:41 <oklopol> the flashcard set i'm using doesn't even have readings, so it prolly makes rather little sense to do it without a book
02:38:53 <pikhq> elliott: It's better than "radical", actually, IMO.
02:38:56 <Ilari> Which will cause problems of its own.
02:39:11 <elliott> oklopol: readings are the whole point of rtk i think
02:39:16 <elliott> pikhq: please say kanjoids in future
02:39:20 <oklopol> prolly easy to assign readings once you have a mental slot for every kanji
02:39:26 <pikhq> elliott: As "radical" technically only refers to the kanjoids that are used for dictionary lookup.
02:39:39 <elliott> oklopol: but but with the kanjoids you need less sluts!
02:39:45 <elliott> but also the slut requirements decrease
02:40:03 <pikhq> oklopol: The point of RTK is to get you a rough indication of the kanji's semantics, and *much more importantly* to decompose kanji into kanjoids and learn them that way.
02:40:47 <oklopol> i can decompose into kanjoids myself tho
02:41:21 <oklopol> i might get some wrong etc but erm so what's the point of knowing the kanjoids?
02:41:26 <elliott> kanjoids are like haemorrhoids. but japanese.
02:41:29 <Ilari> Some do think that the final downfall of IPv4 will be the DFZ table size.
02:41:31 <pikhq> oklopol: What order are you learning them in?
02:42:16 <oklopol> pikhq: the order the flashcards are in, they usually come in a rather nice order that teaches me a small thingie and uses it in about 20 kanji
02:42:34 <pikhq> oklopol: What's the name of the flashcard set?
02:42:43 <oklopol> occasionally i give my own meaning to a part tho
02:42:51 <oklopol> heisig's remember the kanji
02:43:04 <oklopol> some of the cues are pretty insane
02:43:11 <pikhq> oklopol: Uh, I'm advocating the book that goes along with that flashcard set. :P
02:43:11 <Ilari> Wonder when IPv4 allocations growth rate will turn negative.
02:43:17 <oklopol> well, dunno if you could find better ones
02:43:32 <oklopol> pikhq: yeah i've consider that, briefly :D
02:43:32 <elliott> <oklopol> heisig's remember the kanji
02:43:35 <pikhq> oklopol: The Anki deck.
02:44:24 <oklopol> pikhq: but maybe i could learn all of them first and then read the book, that sounds like something a crazy like me would do.
02:44:28 <pikhq> elliott: 数 is a second-grade kanji. 了 is left for middle-school.
02:44:35 <pikhq> elliott: You may now WTF.
02:44:47 <elliott> one on the right is a spiky penis
02:45:58 <oklopol> the one on the right is "complete", the left one i can't really make sense out of, is it that "he/she" or something thing i learned from watching kyle xy with chinese kanji subtitles maybe?
02:46:08 <pikhq> oklopol: It's "number".
02:46:29 <oklopol> i don't know that one yet, which is kinda weird since i'm up to something like 500
02:46:31 <pikhq> elliott: The ordering used for Japanese education of kanji is perhaps the single stupidest thing ever.
02:47:30 <elliott> oklopol: then you know over hyakugojyuuichi. ...well i totally failed to blend that with "over 9000"
02:47:47 <cheater00> it's not like you need to know about spiky penises before middle school anyways
02:48:27 <Ilari> But, IPv6 migration is going to be messy to say the least.
02:48:45 <elliott> oklopol: i'm referencing http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/pika.
02:48:48 <cheater00> as long as the .cx TLD makes it through i'm happy
02:49:32 <elliott> oklopol: you do now. go watch it. it'll learn you japanese.
02:50:08 <pikhq> THAT IS FUCKING CRUELTY.
02:50:19 <elliott> pikhq: Where does hyakugojyuuichi come in
02:50:43 <pikhq> elliott: Hyaku, go, juu, and ichi are all first-grade.
02:50:57 <elliott> is there one big messy kanji with all of hyakugojyuuichi packed in, say yes
02:51:05 <Sgeo> elliott, is it sad that I at first thought it was based off that ... scientology thing? Also, I think I saw this before (unless this isn't the original). I don't think it is, but I remember one pa.. oh, it was that tribute that I'm remembering
02:51:11 <elliott> what's go in japanese again
02:51:18 <elliott> pikhq: that's multiple kanjae.
02:51:32 <pikhq> elliott: You could stick them into a single one just fine.
02:51:52 <pikhq> Unicode, however, does not permit encoding such a thing.
02:53:04 <oklopol> you are allowed to stick them into a single kanji?
02:53:06 <elliott> does shift-jis do that? or one of the other jap encodings :P
02:53:12 <elliott> agglutinative character set!
02:53:20 <oklopol> can someone buy me a better japanese course plz
02:53:56 <pikhq> oklopol: Neologism, bitch.
02:54:19 <elliott> oklopol: remembering the poopji
02:54:30 <elliott> for the three-year-old in you
02:54:33 <pikhq> oklopol: What, if any, Japanese course are you using?
02:54:45 <oklopol> i was referring to the course at the uni
02:54:46 <elliott> pikhq: Retarding the Kanji
02:55:00 <pikhq> That one perpetuates LIES
02:55:15 <pikhq> Most damnable lies!
02:55:39 <pikhq> Polite form before dictionary/plain form is wrong, stupid, wrong, stupid, and also wrong.
02:55:50 <pikhq> Did I happen to mention it's stupid and wrong?
02:55:59 <oklopol> at least, we've finally gotten past those
02:56:23 <oklopol> in the sense that we now use grammatical constructs that require short form
02:56:23 <pikhq> That is definitely the most damnable lie in Japanese pedagogy, and almost every course does it.
02:56:45 <oklopol> so we use short form with those, and long with everything else
02:56:45 <elliott> http://genki.japantimes.co.jp/index.en.html
02:57:33 <pikhq> Polite form before dictionary form involves something absolutely, completely nuts. It involves teaching people *reverse conjugation*.
02:58:23 <pikhq> For the dubious benefit of being able to speak politely as you recite phrases from a phrasebook-in-the-head.
02:58:34 <elliott> that's the best idea i've ever heard
02:58:59 <pikhq> Hint: if you're so very obviously not a competent speaker, the Japanese speakers aren't going to *care* if you're insufficiently formal.
02:59:11 <Sgeo> Or maybe they will!
02:59:16 <Sgeo> I can imagine some caring
02:59:19 <pikhq> Quite honestly, they'll just be damned surprised you know more than "kon'nichiha".
02:59:58 <pikhq> elliott: "ha" is the proper encoding of that grammatical particle, even though it is pronounced "wa".
03:00:09 <elliott> pikhq: HAHAHA YEAH NO FOOLING ME
03:00:19 <pikhq> This is one of the three orthographic inconsistencies in the language.
03:00:24 <oklopol> yeah the reverse conjugation thing was pretty absurd
03:00:36 <pikhq> (the others are "wo" and "he", also particles)
03:00:47 <elliott> what does reverse conjugation even...mean.
03:01:01 <pikhq> elliott: You go from a conjugated form to a plain form.
03:01:58 <oklopol> basically, we are taught mimasu and tabemasu, sees and eats, and then later on, we are taught how to get the basic forms miru and taberu, even though that's how they are already given in the vocabulary list
03:02:18 <pikhq> "oyoimasu" -> "oyogu", "tabemasu" -> "taberu", "imasu" -> "iru", "simasu" -> "suru", and so on.
03:02:24 <elliott> i... mimasu it, i tabemasu it.
03:02:45 <elliott> oklopol: pikhq is illiterate as we have already established
03:02:59 <pikhq> I don't think I've seen that outside of -te form more than once.
03:03:01 <oklopol> well i hadn't read the rest of the list, so i was scared it was a form i didn't know
03:03:36 <elliott> pikhq: I thought you might like this reaction from my friend who I pasted a few of these lines to: [["shimasu" ¬____¬ romanisation is there for a reason]]
03:03:40 <elliott> I've already built my bomb shelter
03:04:01 <pikhq> elliott: I was using an ISO standard romanisation!
03:04:07 <pikhq> WHAT MORE DO THEY WANT
03:04:25 -!- wth has joined.
03:04:34 <elliott> pikhq: just talk in your personal romanisation scheme in future, he'll be too confused to understand you
03:04:44 <elliott> gonna paste this to him now
03:04:44 <oklopol> speaking of japanese, i should be doing my japanese homework
03:04:51 <oklopol> i have to write a diary USING SHORT FORMS
03:05:01 <pikhq> elliott: sonohitokàhì'kurinihàkatàyo'!
03:05:36 <oklopol> it's great how everyone's finding it really hard to say "mita" and "minai", but "tabeteimasendeshita" comes easy to everyone
03:06:04 <elliott> pikhq: "That's not a nice thing to say :("
03:06:05 <oklopol> because we started with long forms and -te forms
03:06:19 <pikhq> elliott: He actually got it? Fuck yeah.
03:06:32 <elliott> pikhq: he might have been referring to my calling him an idiot, lemme check :D
03:06:59 <pikhq> oklopol: "Bikkuri-ni" is "surprisingly" or "shockingly" or the like.
03:07:05 <elliott> pikhq: He got it, yes, he's terribly offended
03:07:21 <oklopol> i certainly have seen that word
03:07:24 <elliott> really bad at being offended that guy
03:07:28 <elliott> as well as bad at everything
03:07:41 <pikhq> elliott: Ask him how well he reads Japanese.
03:07:49 <pikhq> elliott: Say, how hard is Wikipedia in Japanese?
03:08:05 <elliott> pikhq: probably badly, he doesn't actually know any ;D
03:08:20 <oklopol> i can read wikipedia in japanese just fine, because it's in katakana hahahaha
03:08:27 <elliott> i love how i'm trashing his reputation in front of him
03:08:38 <elliott> pikhq: "I am really quite bad at it"
03:08:43 <pikhq> elliott: Just the word "Wikipedia".
03:08:43 <oklopol> "wikipedia" is in katakana
03:08:50 <elliott> straight from the horse's mouth itself and that horse is NOT a metaphor
03:08:58 <pikhq> elliott: ウィキペディア <-
03:08:59 <oklopol> an old joke from the bible
03:09:24 <oklopol> i was all like "wikipediakuu"?
03:09:43 -!- wth has left (?).
03:09:57 <oklopol> even though ku is not katakana, written like that
03:10:22 <pikhq> oklopol: ... Eat Wikipedia?
03:10:25 <pikhq> WTF is wrong with you.
03:10:34 <oklopol> it's scary talking about japanese with pikhq, he really makes you feel like you should not suck at something you supposedly do
03:11:16 <oklopol> pikhq: you're the one talking about eating wikipedia
03:11:27 <oklopol> i'm just reading it and going wtf myself
03:11:53 <oklopol> something like "kue" means "EAT MOTHERFUCKER"
03:11:58 <oklopol> well, maybe not that strong
03:12:08 <pikhq> "kuu" is a fairly informal "eat", yeah.
03:12:09 <elliott> nah it's more like "EAT BITCH"
03:12:16 <oklopol> but i mean imperative, "eat" didn't convey that so i added the motherfucker, which puts it in imperative.
03:12:18 <pikhq> Or samurai-like, depending on context.
03:12:39 <pikhq> elliott: Context can make it that.
03:12:47 <oklopol> yeah english has two ways to do imperatives, the motherfucker and the bitch forms
03:14:08 <oklopol> our english teacher said you also use fucker but that that's a more advanced topic
03:14:14 <elliott> man i'm like a two-way irc client for my friend
03:14:17 <elliott> i should just drag him in here
03:14:21 <elliott> so pikhq can mock him directly
03:14:33 <oklopol> can't even read wikipedia, lol
03:14:52 <oklopol> i opened it once and could read one of the kanji just fine
03:14:54 <elliott> so when was the last time you read ja.wikipedia oklopol ;D
03:15:26 * pikhq can't read it *out loud* fully, but hey, who needs to do that? :P
03:15:52 <oklopol> elliott: fall, i hadn't learned any kanji back then
03:16:01 <pikhq> elliott: Aye, laddy!
03:16:28 <pikhq> oklopol: Probably the worst bit about a formal Japanese course is how mind-bogglingly slow it is.
03:16:42 * Sgeo surrounds the space where elliott's heart should be with stones
03:16:56 <Sgeo> </too-elaborate-to-be-funny?
03:16:57 <oklopol> yeah it's mind-bogglingly slow, but people are having a really hard time anyway
03:17:02 <pikhq> You will be about able to discuss with a somewhat boring 4 year old by the time you're done with Genki.
03:17:23 <oklopol> i just listened to the second book's last listening comprehension
03:17:26 <pikhq> No, sorry, a *particularly* boring 4 year old.
03:17:36 <oklopol> and it was about something like "can you play the guitar?"
03:17:56 <oklopol> that kata thingie or what was it
03:18:20 <oklopol> erm or was koto sometimes used for that kinda thing
03:18:34 <oklopol> well in any case, point was it was something very simple :)
03:18:38 <pikhq> Oh, -u koto ga aru?
03:18:53 <oklopol> so have you done something
03:19:06 <oklopol> do you have the personal event of playing the guitar
03:19:16 <pikhq> What really gets me with that shit is that ALL OF THIS COMES ENTIRELY NATURALLY FROM "koto" and "aru"!
03:19:40 <pikhq> I mean, really, you could "teach" that by just saying it a few times and someone who doesn't suck would get it.
03:19:47 <pikhq> Oh, wait. "someone who doesn't suck".
03:20:03 <oklopol> well it comes naturally from thinking koto is the event of you doing something
03:20:12 <oklopol> but i'm not sure that's what it is
03:20:36 <oklopol> maybe i've rationalized it wrong, genki just says "copy paste this sentence, change words X and Y"
03:20:49 <pikhq> Yeah, see, that's horribly wrong, and you should read Tae Kim.
03:20:54 <pikhq> And drop that course.
03:21:12 <pikhq> You'd be more productive if you just watched anime during the time you'd be taking that course, *and did nothing else*.
03:21:30 <oklopol> i agree, but i can't "drop a course"
03:21:31 <pikhq> (to specify further: anime, without subs, in Japanese)
03:21:36 <elliott> he's a superfag and spent 10 minutes saying he was leaving too quickly to use webchat.freenode.net as opposed to the three minutes it'd take to get mocked mercilessly here
03:22:21 <oklopol> pikhq: i also believe that, but i don't actually enjoy anime
03:22:26 <Ilari> Heh. During last two months, APNIC allocated on average 9.035 IPv4 addresses per second.
03:22:34 <pikhq> oklopol: Anime is a fairly broad medium.
03:22:46 <oklopol> yes, and i seem to dislike all of it, except for death note
03:22:55 <oklopol> well i've only seen like maybe 30 or so
03:23:00 <pikhq> See, what's popular *in the US* tends to be Japan's Saturday morning cartoons.
03:23:12 <pikhq> Yes, this includes Death Note.
03:24:00 <pikhq> My three absolute, utter favorites are Kino's Journey, Baccano!, and Mushishi.
03:24:47 <oklopol> my friends all watch one piece xD
03:25:07 <oklopol> if that's not a kid's show in japan, i'm a shoe
03:25:35 <elliott> oklopol will you be here tomorrow
03:25:41 <elliott> sync up, i'll get the fag to come in here
03:25:45 <oklopol> i will never be here again
03:25:53 <elliott> oklopol: great, how does midnight UTC sound
03:26:32 <pikhq> (キノの旅 -the Beautiful World-, バッカーノ！, and 蟲師, respectively)
03:26:39 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, I probably will be.
03:27:36 <pikhq> oklopol: I also rather enjoyed Death Note, Cowboy Bebop, Tengen Toppa Gurren-Lagann, Fullmetal Alchemist, Code Geass, Hellsing, and Elfen Lied.
03:28:15 <pikhq> Gurren-Lagann is mostly notable for being completely and utterly over-the-top.
03:28:33 <pikhq> Hooray, mechs throwing galaxies as shuriken.
03:28:37 <oklopol> are those all morning cartoons?
03:28:48 <elliott> elfen lied is the most morning cartoon of them all
03:28:55 <oklopol> because cowboy bebop sucks, fullmetal alchemist sucks, code geass sucks and elfen lied sucks
03:29:07 <pikhq> ... You disliked Cowboy Bebop?
03:29:16 <elliott> he's oklopol, he's not allowed to have conventional opinions
03:29:17 <oklopol> well that one i actually haven't seen that much
03:29:34 <pikhq> At the very least, it is mandatory you like the music.
03:29:50 <oklopol> alchemist certainly sucks, was elfen lied the one with a lot of blood
03:29:57 <oklopol> or was that that thing with blood in its name
03:30:03 <pikhq> Elfen Lied was uber-violent.
03:30:05 <pikhq> elliott: It wasn't.
03:30:10 <pikhq> elliott: It aired at like midnight.
03:30:14 <oklopol> well needless killing is nice of course
03:30:17 <elliott> pikhq: that's just really early morning.
03:30:21 <elliott> kids are probably up by then.
03:30:49 <pikhq> Fullmetal Alchemist and Code Geass were kids cartoons.
03:30:50 <oklopol> code geass i may have just heard about :P
03:30:56 <pikhq> As is Gurren-Lagann.
03:31:04 <oklopol> well fullmetal alchemist is so obviously a kids' cartoon my ass is on fire
03:31:24 <elliott> it's full metal jacket you illiterate fucks!
03:31:33 <pikhq> oklopol: Yeah, it is.
03:32:26 <pikhq> Baccano!, Mushishi, and Kino's Journey, BTW, are *nothing* like the other anime I had mentioned...
03:33:14 <pikhq> Well. Baccano! has alchemists, so I guess it'd be vaguely related to Fullmetal Alchemist.
03:33:27 <oklopol> okay, point taken. there's also this guy who suggests i watch actual japanese programs with people in them
03:33:57 <pikhq> oklopol: Can't comment much, except to say that I liked Great Teacher Onizuka, and their variety shows are solidly WTF.
03:34:15 <oklopol> i've watched a few shows, and the overall impression is that japs can't act
03:34:27 <pikhq> Not the impression I've gotten.
03:35:16 <oklopol> i've never seen acting as bad as in the shows i've seen on tv. of course the shows were incredibly bad and probably have never been shown on tv in japan either.
03:35:26 <oklopol> that may have been hard to parse
03:35:40 <oklopol> on western tv, i have never seen acting as bad as in the jap shows i've seen.
03:35:50 <pikhq> Music, I find a little bit hard, because I absolutely *despise* J-pop, and that's what people in America are familiar with, so that's all I've heard *much* about.
03:35:55 <oklopol> it's like they were trying to be anime characters
03:36:45 <elliott> pikhq: how can people even like j-pop
03:36:52 <elliott> is it just because they're fuckin' weeaboos
03:37:01 <elliott> oh no western pop is vapid and shitty because it's like
03:37:07 <elliott> so culturally insensitive and terrible
03:37:07 <oklopol> i only listen to music where you can't make out the lyrics anyway
03:37:12 <elliott> but the japanese are platonically perfect amazing beings of light
03:37:14 <oklopol> so music is kinda useless for learning languages
03:37:17 <elliott> and their pop is liquid ambrosia in music sex form
03:38:13 <pikhq> The only Japanese band I really listen to *currently* has "it is difficult to classify this band" on its Wikipedia page...
03:38:20 <pikhq> Which is... Pretty awesome, really.
03:38:28 <pikhq> Sakanaction (サカナクション)
03:38:55 <oklopol> i wish i knew what action is in japanese, so i could translate that
03:39:15 <pikhq> Doesn't matter, it's Engrish. :P
03:39:25 <elliott> "To them it reflects their wish to act quickly and lightly, like fishes in the water, without fearing changes to the music scenes."
03:39:34 <pikhq> elliott: I SAID IT WAS ENGRISH.
03:40:05 <pikhq> You have to get a bit of a thick skin to Engrish if you do Japanese.
03:40:54 <pikhq> These are people who think "Sperm" is an entirely unnoteworthy name for a store.
03:41:19 <pikhq> Or was it "Semen"?
03:41:28 <elliott> visit sperm on semen alley
03:42:40 <pikhq> I swear, would it kill people to just *ask* an English speaker?
03:42:54 <pikhq> Oh, right, moronic immigration policy.
03:43:46 -!- Alex_Megaroide has quit (Quit: leaving).
03:44:41 <oklopol> link a good song from sakanaction
03:45:23 <pikhq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS6wzjpCvec
03:45:59 -!- wareya has joined.
03:47:33 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:47:40 <Sgeo> With no sins in mind...
03:52:08 <oklopol> pikhq: i did not find that song particularly anything
03:53:03 <oklopol> a few surprises ofc, japs are less afraid of having a tiny bit of originality in their songs
03:54:42 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaoYJLKG03o but come on, real music exists, why listen to that
03:57:44 <oklopol> although i have to admit faceless has taught me very little japanese
03:58:33 <oklopol> i'm sure it has expanded my mind in every direction
03:59:06 -!- pikhq has joined.
03:59:08 <oklopol> although faceless is the reason i now enjoy music i found extremely braindead before
03:59:17 <elliott> pikhq: oklopol hates the song.
04:00:11 <oklopol> the background stuff was fun, but i couldn't really make any of that out further than that
04:00:15 <pikhq> HATRED is no doubt reserved complete bullshit "music", rather than differing tastes.
04:00:30 <pikhq> Erm, reserved for.
04:00:31 <oklopol> oh i don't really deal out hatred
04:01:32 <oklopol> and i don't really understand music where the main melody is sung, it all sounds the same to me
04:01:39 <oklopol> so yeah can't comment much
04:02:06 <elliott> when oklopol listens to acapella
04:02:12 <pikhq> I'm afraid the closest I get to your suggested "real music" is the Black Mages.
04:02:25 <pikhq> Which... Isn't very.
04:02:31 <oklopol> do you like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Cz2dFTlSA&feature=related
04:03:05 <pikhq> oklopol: So far (first... 15 seconds?), yeah.
04:03:30 <pikhq> I dislike growl "singing".
04:03:42 <oklopol> you have to learn to take it seriously
04:03:51 <pikhq> Otherwise, I totally approve of awesome, well-executed guitar.
04:04:18 <elliott> can anyone do growling and falsetto simultaneously
04:04:27 <elliott> because that would be amazing. also hilarious.
04:04:42 <pikhq> I'd probably be more into metal if it were instrumental, TBH.
04:04:44 <elliott> what's that lowest vocal thing
04:04:51 <oklopol> i didn't understand the point of growling for years, but it grows on you... i guess singing grows on you too if you let it
04:05:17 <elliott> i ask all these serious questions and you're like myeh myeh myeh
04:05:56 <oklopol> pikhq: unfortunately most of it is to a large extent based on the growling.
04:06:02 <pikhq> elliott: Vocal fry register.
04:06:12 <elliott> can you do that and falsetto at once
04:06:22 <pikhq> I highly doubt it.
04:06:30 <pikhq> I think I've tried, though.
04:06:44 <pikhq> oklopol: I can do vocal fry register.
04:06:52 <oklopol> yeah sorry wasn't reading every line
04:07:22 <oklopol> i must have not read ANY of the lines.
04:07:59 <oklopol> oh right pikhq sings and is a bass right?
04:08:25 <pikhq> Though it's been a couple years since I was in a choir.
04:08:40 <oklopol> you told that at least once but that was before i knew your irc persona
04:08:48 <pikhq> oklopol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G1pTgyO-O8 Opine, you.
04:09:08 <elliott> oklopol: "your irc persona"? :P
04:09:25 <pikhq> I have no persona unique to IRC!
04:09:58 <oklopol> people sometimes dislike when you tell them you know them
04:10:08 <oklopol> perhaps you aren't in that set.
04:10:33 <pikhq> I do not consider my presence on IRC to be in any way distinct from my presence anywhere else, except in terms of the medium.
04:10:34 <oklopol> i have high confidence in being able to learn to know someone on irc
04:10:49 <oklopol> well that makes 3 of us, then, prolly
04:11:34 <elliott> so did oklopol know pikhq before eso or sth
04:12:11 <pikhq> "The very lowest part of the register can extend in rare cases to 20–50 pulses per second." FUCK YEAH, I'M A RARE CASE.
04:13:47 <elliott> i'm going to 0g o to slepp
04:13:47 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:14:03 <pikhq> Damned puberty took the whistle register from me, though.
04:14:10 <oklopol> pikhq: this is good, perhaps a bit too happy for my taste
04:14:53 <pikhq> oklopol: This is what happens when a composer of vaguely classical soundtrack music feels like doing metal.
04:15:16 <oklopol> most metal fans i know like classical music
04:16:08 <oklopol> or at least they say this, possibly they just want to sound like they appreciate music because of its complex smartnessity instead of because growling sounds cool.
04:16:30 * pikhq puts on some Led Zeppelin. :)
04:16:43 * Sgeo vaguely worries about his step-mother
04:16:54 <oklopol> the only problem with classical is once you get used to drums, you feel like something's missing if they're not there
04:17:00 <oklopol> you get over that quickly ofc
04:17:27 <pikhq> That's a problem for fans of nearly any modern musical form, though.
04:17:42 <pikhq> It's pretty much all got a beat defined by drums. Even freaking pop.
04:18:01 <oklopol> well pop is all about drums and singing
04:18:14 <pikhq> And by "singing" you mean "autotune".
04:18:33 <oklopol> not all pop uses autotune yet
04:18:47 <oklopol> i'm not really following its... ""progress""
04:18:47 <pikhq> I can freaking tell when autotune is being used extensively.
04:19:03 <pikhq> (my sisters and mother listen to top 40 radio. Gag.)
04:19:41 <pikhq> I can't quite describe what it is, except to say that it's kinda like the harmonics on the singing are all... Wrong.
04:20:09 <pikhq> Almost as though it's coming from an eerily good voice synth.
04:20:14 <pikhq> Which arguably it is.
04:20:18 <Sgeo> My dad's not home yet. My dad staying late has never been a good sign.. except with my step-mom, in which case he's probably just staying over or something
04:20:19 <oklopol> well you certainly learn to know it once you've listened to people who do their singing in it completely
04:20:24 <Sgeo> I'm still on edge from last week
04:20:48 <pikhq> Freaking Kanye West.
04:20:52 <Sgeo> My dad was still elsewhere, despite it being very late at night
04:21:05 <Sgeo> The last time I remember was like that was when my step-mom's sister's bf died
04:21:38 <Sgeo> I asked about my step-mother's mom, how she was. "So-so". That was a lie, he didn't want to tell me over the phone
04:22:16 <Sgeo> But.. my step-mom's not in the hospital or anything, so there's no real reason to worry
04:22:18 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
04:22:54 <oklopol> i'm not sure i'm following you, why exactly is your step-mom sad
04:24:03 <Sgeo> oklopol, her mom died last week...
04:24:38 <oklopol> "I asked about my step-mother's mom, how she was." read this as "i asked my step-mother's mom"
04:24:46 <oklopol> made everything a bit confusing
04:26:31 <pikhq> *gag* Why am I recalling idol singers? And why do my ears feel like they need to be punctured?
04:27:09 <pikhq> Well, no, I try to ignore them.
04:27:12 <pikhq> I'm recalling the concept.
04:27:17 <oklopol> i succeed in ignoring them
04:27:43 <oklopol> hey wanna hear more about how sucky my jap course is
04:28:25 <oklopol> not what i was gonna say but our teacher is already very crappy for the simple reason she sucks at english
04:28:38 <oklopol> you can't ask anything, because she'll just repeat what she already told.
04:28:49 <pikhq> Oh, dear, you've got a teacher with nihonjinron precepts as *well*.
04:29:18 <oklopol> asking stuff takes a huge effort, not everyone is confident about their english to do it
04:29:26 <pikhq> Your teacher likely has the preconception that foreigners will never attain fluency at Japanese.
04:29:39 <oklopol> the ones that do, like me, aren't really the ones that have questions related to the material at hand
04:29:54 <oklopol> we have this language circle thin
04:29:59 <oklopol> where you can talk to japs and shit
04:30:06 <oklopol> she told us DO NOT GO THERE, YOU CANNOT SPEAK JAPANESE
04:31:10 <pikhq> This person probably also thinks you shouldn't read manga because it's not "real" Japanese or some shit.
04:31:11 <oklopol> yeah so what i was originally going to say was
04:31:19 <oklopol> today, we have a "dialogue test"
04:31:32 <oklopol> this means we MEMORIZE THREE CHAPTERS OF THE BOOK
04:32:13 <pikhq> </scream at="top of lungs">
04:32:20 <oklopol> we did have another one where we memorized more useful sentences like "i have a car", so it's not all bad ;)
04:32:36 <oklopol> hey i know the "lung" kanji
04:32:41 <oklopol> but i can't make it out...
04:32:48 <oklopol> it should be a moon and a market right
04:33:03 -!- TLUL has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
04:33:08 <pikhq> "BAKABAKASHII!", BTW.
04:33:24 <pikhq> Or, translated, something akin to "YOU COMPLETE IMBECILE!"
04:34:17 <oklopol> but, anyhow the teacher does tell the second year students they should watch anime and read manga, i think
04:34:27 <pikhq> Don't take a second year.
04:34:36 <pikhq> Get a time machine and undo the first year.
04:35:05 <oklopol> not taking the second year would feel like failing
04:35:28 <oklopol> LET ME WASTE MY TIME IN PEACE AND COMPLAIN TO YOU ON A DAILY BASIS!
04:35:50 <pikhq> But, seriously. What you've learned so far should have taken you maybe a week.
04:36:54 <oklopol> i doubt many could learn everything i know in a week, although certainly in a month.
04:38:23 <oklopol> but it's kinda crazy, we have like 8 ways to conjugate a verb and people are still struggling with them, i mean come on you have to know like 15 rules
04:38:40 <oklopol> how can that take more than an hour
04:38:46 -!- asiekierka has joined.
04:38:56 <oklopol> here's how we practise short forms
04:39:19 <oklopol> teacher: "oyogimasu", us: "oyogu", teacher: "mimasu", us: "miru"
04:39:45 <oklopol> the class is lulled into a "remove the masu" trance
04:39:45 <pikhq> That is retarded. Positively retarded.
04:40:01 <oklopol> sure, after 10 hours of that, you will know the rules to some extent!
04:40:49 <oklopol> and in the end, everyone will have their own "oh so this is how it goes" moment later, when these start actually getting used
04:41:45 <pikhq> http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/classes-suck
04:41:53 <pikhq> Imma just leave that there.
04:43:14 -!- azaq23 has joined.
04:44:23 -!- TLUL has joined.
04:50:25 -!- TLUL has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
04:55:10 -!- TLUL has joined.
04:59:01 -!- sandrstar has joined.
04:59:06 -!- sandrstar has left (?).
05:02:43 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
05:22:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:48:20 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*).
06:02:01 -!- augur has joined.
06:55:40 -!- uniqanomaly has joined.
07:24:33 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
07:24:37 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:21:00 -!- uniqanomaly_ has joined.
08:25:06 -!- uniqanomaly has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
08:29:14 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
08:30:42 -!- quintopia has joined.
08:30:42 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host).
08:30:42 -!- quintopia has joined.
08:37:44 -!- oerjan has joined.
08:57:16 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
08:57:42 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
09:00:09 -!- nik340 has joined.
09:00:09 -!- nik340 has left (?).
09:18:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game).
09:24:46 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
09:25:57 -!- cheater00 has joined.
09:48:55 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
09:49:13 -!- pikhq has joined.
10:31:37 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
10:36:11 -!- Zuu has joined.
10:51:10 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:00:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
11:01:31 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:11:31 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
11:13:45 -!- cheater00 has joined.
11:17:04 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
11:21:14 -!- oklopol has joined.
11:28:57 -!- invariable has joined.
11:30:07 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
11:36:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
11:52:31 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
12:06:08 -!- cheater00 has joined.
12:09:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:10:07 -!- sebbu has joined.
12:31:43 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
12:33:19 -!- coppro has joined.
12:34:37 -!- choochter has joined.
13:04:19 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
13:30:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
13:31:59 <Ilari> APNIC stats jumped to 4.42 (3.42 after removing the 1 reserved block). Apparently they added ERX blocks to the stats.
13:33:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:34:12 -!- elliott has joined.
13:35:58 <elliott> 20:20:48 <pikhq> Freaking Kanye West.
13:36:12 <elliott> pikhq: but Pitchfork LOVED his new album, THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY HE COULD BE SHITTY
13:39:19 <Ilari> 58 854 144 addresses (3.508 blocks) left according to extended delegations file.
13:44:14 -!- ais523_ has joined.
13:46:01 <Ilari> Largest IPv6 blocks APNIC has available: /17s.
13:48:52 <ais523_> so only twice as many as the number of /16s in anything, such as IPv4
13:50:24 <ais523_> I should be marking right now, but the person I'm meant to mark hasn't turned up
13:50:45 <ais523_> which is weird given that she was here a) yesterday, b) earlier today
13:51:18 <oklopol> can we choose which one is true?
13:52:04 <ais523_> well, they both are, so you'd be correct no matter which choice you made
13:52:17 <elliott> The second character, }, means “sea” and it is made up of three
13:52:17 <elliott> parts. To the left you see Y, the three drops of water, indicating that
13:52:17 <elliott> it has something to do with water. The upper right two-stroke
13:52:17 <elliott> combination ” is an abbreviated form of Þ which is one of the
13:52:17 <elliott> many forms for grass and anything that flourishes luxuriously like
13:52:19 <elliott> grass. Below it is a slightly simplified form of ª, the pictograph of
13:52:21 <elliott> two breasts, meaning “mother.” Together, the right side is an image
13:52:23 <elliott> of a woman with her hair up"
13:52:25 <elliott> pikhq: is heisig insane or is chinese insane :)
13:52:40 <elliott> i'll just assume pikhq is so much of a kanji wizard he can infer
13:53:08 <ais523_> over here, each character seems to have become a single character of Latin-1
13:53:33 <elliott> it's from what looks like a tex document
13:53:49 <elliott> ais523_: of course i sent it as utf-8 since my client does
13:53:54 <elliott> "Whereas î has only one reading in Chinese, shang, in Japanese it
13:53:54 <elliott> has at least 10 recognized pronunciations, 6 of which all school
13:53:59 <elliott> ok, there's an insane language here, and it's not chinese
13:54:18 <ais523_> the common latex->pdf algorithm works by inventing an encoding specific to that document, and embedding it in the PDF
13:54:27 <ais523_> because you can specify your own encodings in PDFs
13:54:40 <elliott> "2 standard Chinese (on) readings: jõ and shõ
13:54:40 <elliott> 4 s t a n d a r d J a p a n e s e (kun) r e a d i n g s : kami, ue, a[garu],
13:54:40 <elliott> no[boru], (and 3 more, if you include variations on these
13:54:44 <ais523_> PDF readers that try to copy-paste the text stream of the document therefore get confused
13:54:45 <elliott> 4 rare Japanese readings: hotori, kuwa[eru], tate[matsuru],
13:54:48 <elliott> Which reading is used in which situation? It all depends on the
13:55:07 <elliott> ais523_: I wonder if luatex might fix that
13:55:12 <elliott> say, by using unicode internally, which I think it does
13:55:19 <ais523_> is that like a lua version of tex?
13:55:26 <ais523_> if not, it needs a better name
13:55:28 <elliott> ais523_: yes; it's the Perl 6 of TeX
13:55:42 <elliott> (albeit, not officially approved like Perl 6 is, but then LaTeX isn't either)
13:55:53 <elliott> ais523_: basically it's the successor of pdfTeX...
13:56:09 <elliott> indeed, it uses utf-8 input
13:56:20 <ais523_> how many of latex's character codes (including the ones in commonly used libraries such as amsmath) are in Unicode, I wonder?
13:56:32 <ais523_> I'd be surprised if it's all of them
13:57:21 <ais523_> macros that produce exactly one character, from a typesetting point of view
13:57:43 <ais523_> and which are "purely functional" in that it's always the same character no matter what
14:00:18 <Gregor> My impression was that at this point the vast majority weren't Unicode.
14:04:08 <elliott> Gregor: ais523_ was only referring to common characters
14:04:22 <elliott> Everything in the core is in Unicode, I believe...
14:04:32 <elliott> as far as AMS goes, things like \hat and \widehat or whatever aren't
14:04:38 <elliott> because they make very little sense from a unicode point of view, well
14:04:48 <elliott> because it stretches over N glyphs
14:05:51 <elliott> ais523_: heh, all this blabber about unicode, and he's gone and inserted blatantly non-Unicode symbols into this document
14:06:03 <elliott> "For the English speaker, the word flower is linked with the memory or visual perception of an actual flower, ‘. This link goes both
14:06:03 <elliott> ways, so that thinking about or seeing a ‘ the word flower comes
14:06:03 <elliott> to mind at once, just as speaking or reading the word flower calls
14:06:03 <elliott> up an image, however vague, of a ‘."
14:06:54 <Gregor> Whoah, thinking about a closing single quote DOES bring the word "flower" to mind!
14:13:19 <ais523_> are you sure there are no flowers in Unicode
14:13:26 <ais523_> there are some really weird things added to the astral planes recently
14:16:29 <elliott> pikhq: are japanese displays higher-dpi than average?
14:16:40 <elliott> I had to zoom this in so that kanji were anything but tiny squiggles of unreadability
14:17:42 <ais523_> I know that some computer games that use kanji draw them at double the font size they use for kana, just so they're legible
14:18:07 <ais523_> although kana are more common in computer games as they're typically marketed at children who may not know all the kanji used yet
14:20:53 <oklopol> jap kids must be pretty stupid, i knew every letter when i was 5
14:21:01 <elliott> i wonder when my procrastination lobe will give up and start me learning the kana
14:21:30 <elliott> i'm not exactly anticipating the hardest time :p
14:22:06 <elliott> "As the Japanese do not use word spaces (except for children)"
14:22:13 <elliott> oklopol: very stupid, they even forget to use the spacebar
14:22:21 -!- sftp has joined.
14:23:10 <oklopol> i used all KINDS of spaces when i was a kiddo
14:23:42 * Sgeo hits everyone with a
14:23:50 <elliott> 15:56:48 <GregorR> I need something to do ... Anybody have any ideas for someting (non-esolang-related) for me to implement?
14:24:09 <elliott> if i keep insulting him w/ log lines for long enough it'll become a running gag and therefore acceptable
14:25:55 <oklopol> erm insulting Gregor has been a long going gag anyway
14:26:09 <elliott> well yeah... but it's not a running gag just because you do it
14:26:15 <elliott> those would be some pretty weird running gags.
14:26:21 <elliott> this is our first line of defence.
14:26:35 <oklopol> the reason is that Gregor has one of the most stable brains there is, so as scientist we have to see if we can make him cry
14:26:50 <elliott> that's a really good point
14:26:53 <elliott> Gregor: i killed your parents
14:27:02 * elliott slinks over to the observation chamber
14:29:42 -!- asiekierka has joined.
14:31:32 -!- choochter has quit (Quit: lang may yer lum reek..).
14:34:16 <Deewiant> fizzie: Why d'ya need a preliminary name
14:35:21 <Deewiant> elliott: That information is available on a need-to-know basis
14:35:32 <elliott> Deewiant: I logread, what more do you want!
14:36:26 <Deewiant> That doesn't constitute a need
14:39:40 <elliott> Deewiant: What if I ask the Make a Wish foundation?
14:40:42 <Deewiant> If they have the answer they'll surely give it
14:40:55 <fizzie> Deewiant: So that I can tell you if your preliminary name is already taken. :p
14:41:02 <elliott> fizzie: WHAT ARE YOU EVEN THE TALKING ABOUT
14:41:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: (About 30-40% of registrations come without the preliminary name, though.)
14:41:26 <elliott> 15:48:26 <bsmntbombdood> I see the early days of #esoteric were quite quiet
14:41:26 <elliott> 15:48:44 <lament> no, the early days were just fine.
14:41:26 <elliott> 15:48:57 <lament> the middle ages were quiet.
14:41:26 <elliott> 15:49:38 <lament> all secular thought was suppressed.
14:42:27 <Deewiant> fizzie: Fair enough I suppose :-P Can I do it privmsg-style or would that be too complicated
14:42:42 <elliott> YOU FINNS ARE WAY TOO SECRETIVE.
14:42:53 <elliott> If fizzie wasn't an op I'd have you all banned for sliminess.
14:43:48 <oklopol> hey no one's sharing with me :(
14:43:49 <fizzie> Deewiant: I guess you can, but then you don't get my canned-template "registration acknowledgement" email.
14:43:55 <ais523_> <elliott> well yeah... but it's not a running gag just because you do it
14:44:25 <Deewiant> fizzie: You can always copy-paste it
14:44:30 <elliott> ais523_: hey i was like the official o ambassador for #esoteric
14:44:40 <elliott> fizzie: Deewiant: Ha, a SCHISM in the Finns.
14:45:02 <fizzie> Deewiant: http://p.zem.fi/ha5f
14:45:26 <fizzie> (It's non-automatical, that's why the ad-hoc format.)
14:45:32 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:46:01 <fizzie> The link also reveals all the sordid details of what this was about.
14:46:04 <elliott> I think you two are just elaborately trolling.
14:46:16 -!- sebbu has joined.
14:46:19 <elliott> I bet the "course T-93.4400 AI tournament" doesn't even exist.
14:46:36 <elliott> But hey, good to know you're finally letting the world know about your, ehm, relationships... with goats.
14:46:37 <fizzie> You have seen through our ruse.
14:46:49 <elliott> (LOGREADERS FROM A TIME WHERE P.ZEM.FI NO LONGER EXISTS: PAY ATTENTION.)
14:47:11 <elliott> (FUTUREGOOGLE: Heikki Kallasjoki goat legality of marrying a goat goat-human relations)
14:48:34 <elliott> "Transaction completed." -- Finn communication 101
14:48:48 <fizzie> There's a logo saying "COMMIT;" in the side of a building on my regular bus route.
14:48:49 <elliott> Instead of "Hello", you say "Prepare to merge this information with your existing knowledge database."
14:49:03 <elliott> Instead of saying "How are you?", you say "".
14:50:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
14:50:38 <fizzie> Speaking Finnish with Deewiant is a really strange and somehow "wrong" feeling.
14:50:49 <fizzie> 'td'be like speaking Finnish with oklopol.
14:50:50 <Deewiant> I could also have asked you when I almost physically ran into you this morning but I didn't.
14:51:16 <oklopol> i wonder if i'd speak finnish with fizzie irl
14:51:42 <ais523_> Deewiant: would it have been in English or Finnish?
14:51:51 <ais523_> or in Finnish except with lowercase letters and no full stops?
14:52:10 <fizzie> I don't think it's so weird when spoken-spoken, just when written-spoken.
14:52:38 <oklopol> written-spoken? like one of us writes and the other one speaks
14:52:42 <Deewiant> I'm not sure how lack of uppercase applies to speech
14:52:54 <elliott> i dunno if i've ever seen oklopol speak in finnish
14:52:55 <fizzie> Perhaps a monotonic prosody.
14:53:30 <oklopol> well i've demonstrated sentences not that rarely
14:53:36 <elliott> yeah but that's not talking
14:54:05 <oklopol> kyl m puhuu voin hei jos on kova tarvis kuulla totanoinniin
14:54:38 <Deewiant> kantsiiks hei puhuu jos kukaan ei tajuu mistään mitään
14:56:24 <oklopol> noo oha toiki totta mut toisaalt ei tuu bannei ku ainoo oppi online tajuu kummiski :DD
14:56:49 <elliott> täääääääs ookan kaämaan :)
14:57:25 <oklopol> i have to say that was rather obnoxious finnish
14:57:28 <Deewiant> oikeestaanhan ei oo ketään oppii paikal ku hää meni just
14:58:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:58:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:58:33 <oklopol> elliott: you can't have a and in the same word
14:58:58 <elliott> lol you're not funny Deewiant.
14:59:10 <ais523_> isn't that a contradiction?
14:59:14 <elliott> ais523_: yeah, making up fake finnish words like that
14:59:19 <elliott> oh, no, it's funny in like a really pathetic way!
14:59:22 <Deewiant> What if it's funny that one isn't funny
14:59:26 <ais523_> I mean, nowadays people seem to use "lol" to indicate "not really funny"
14:59:32 <ais523_> which is more or less the opposite of its actual meaning
14:59:33 <elliott> deewiant, although horrendously unfunny gets it right
14:59:36 <oklopol> i suppose ka, and maan could all be words.
14:59:42 <fizzie> Deewiant: Compounds don't count.
15:00:10 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
15:00:20 <oklopol> you mean like "ka, lentv penis!"
15:00:59 <elliott> what is your language even.
15:01:07 <oklopol> oh, i thought that was always kaa
15:01:17 <fizzie> Them Swedes have some silly one-letter words.
15:01:33 <elliott> haha yes, you mock _swedes_ after that insanity
15:01:39 -!- invariable has changed nick to variable.
15:02:38 <ais523_> although Agora uses e, and zzo38 seems to use o as a word, although I'm not entirely sure what it means
15:02:43 <elliott> (beyotch is the fourth single-letter word)
15:02:49 <elliott> ais523_: O is in the Bible isn't it
15:02:57 <ais523_> oklopol: probably not with the same meaning as zzo38, thouhg
15:02:59 <elliott> zzo38 uses it to mean "O" even though it doesn't really mean O.
15:03:03 <ais523_> elliott: possibly, it likely depends on the translation
15:03:06 <elliott> zzo38 uses it to mean "Oh" even though it doesn't really mean oh.
15:03:27 <oklopol> o is an old way of setting the "you" variable
15:03:32 <fizzie> oklopol: Was it so that Turku was one of your position distribution maxima?
15:03:37 <elliott> "That is what the dihistomic modulator is used for."
15:03:56 <oklopol> if you wanna come visit and clean my apartment
15:04:06 <ais523_> oklopol: hey, that word has both a and ä in too
15:04:22 <elliott> i'm trying to find a wp article for "O"
15:04:25 <elliott> maybe wiktionary would work
15:04:33 <elliott> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/o jesus christ
15:04:38 <ais523_> you'd think [[o]] would at least contain a link to it
15:04:44 <elliott> (archaic) (always capitalized) The English vocative particle, used before a pronoun or the name of a person or persons to mark direct address.
15:04:44 <elliott> O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? -- Galatians 3:1 (King James version).
15:04:52 <elliott> ais523_: OK, so what zzo38 does is at least Wiktionary-approved, if bizarre.
15:04:56 <ais523_> that's not quite the same thing as "oh"
15:04:56 <oklopol> '<oklopol> o is an old way of setting the "you" variable' is the definition of vocative
15:05:06 <fizzie> Not now; but we'll be in the city for some hours on some day; forgot the specifics though. It was in April.
15:05:10 <elliott> i was just getting the wiktionary srrrce
15:05:18 <oklopol> well obviously it's in there, it's not that rare
15:05:34 <ais523_> elliott: I did tell you that zzo38 is always technically correct, if not in this reality, then in some other
15:06:20 <oklopol> fizzie: great, it's much faster if there's two of you
15:06:28 <oklopol> but you should allocate a bit more than two hours
15:06:35 <elliott> ais523_: like one where insane phonetic spelling is the correct way to write English?
15:06:58 <ais523_> after all, it's the correct way to write German
15:06:59 <elliott> ais523_: ("Old mesiges ar being crosed out")
15:07:27 <ais523_> "crosed" is incorrect even with insane phonetic spelling, though
15:07:35 <elliott> ais523_: Then zzo38 is technically incorrect?
15:07:39 <ais523_> as it would indicate the o as long
15:07:44 <elliott> ais523_: zzo actually said that.
15:07:50 <ais523_> elliott: no, he's just not using insane phonetic spelling, but spelling based on a different basis again
15:08:07 <elliott> ais523_: You realise that everything anybody says is technically correct in a specific universe?
15:08:10 <ais523_> which probably has phonetics involved, but likely other things too
15:08:13 <elliott> Except for self-contradictory statements.
15:08:19 <elliott> Which are correct only in inconsistent universes :P
15:08:36 <ais523_> elliott: yes; except that most people at least try to get that universe to match the one everyone else seems to be in
15:08:46 <ais523_> rather, he invents his own
15:09:00 <elliott> They just try and convince everyone else to start living in their own world
15:10:41 <elliott> ais523_: wait, why are you saying he?
15:10:47 <elliott> we don't have a single piece of evidence zzo38 is male
15:11:14 <ais523_> I thought it was established, although I'm not sure what evidence that basis is on
15:11:15 <oklopol> well not as concrete as a penis but come on
15:11:30 <elliott> oklopol: this is /zzo38/ we're talking about
15:11:33 <elliott> ais523_: I don't think it has been
15:11:45 <oklopol> well, perhaps you are right
15:11:58 <oklopol> but i would be very surprised
15:12:06 <oklopol> zzo38: are you male or female?
15:12:08 <elliott> oklopol: zzo38 is pretty surprising
15:13:37 <ais523_> I suppose one issue is if you asked zzo38 about gender, you couldn't be certain he would be using the same definitions of "male" and "female" as everyone else does
15:13:56 <elliott> I doubt he would tell us anyway.
15:13:57 <oklopol> maybe i'll just ask for a naked pic
15:14:14 <elliott> he's refused to tell us his age, and "Gender: Not Telling" --http://www.digitalmzx.net/forums/index.php?showuser=1941
15:15:02 <oklopol> i'd be less surprised if he were god than if he were she
15:15:21 <oklopol> actually that may be true in a rather small amount
15:15:45 <elliott> let's have a conversation about someone else behind their back, like say... Gregor!
15:15:53 <ais523_> when did ais523 (no underscore) quit?
15:16:06 <ais523_> I suspect it's just a connection drop; I hope nobody's stolen my laptop
15:16:11 <elliott> 05:33:42 --- quit: ais523 (Remote host closed the connection)
15:16:32 <ais523_> but I was here as ais523 earlier today
15:16:40 <elliott> argh, my client doesn't know when i joined in this window
15:16:46 <elliott> convert the time yourself :P
15:17:02 <elliott> "today" in clog time, you have always been ais523_
15:17:08 <elliott> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/11.03.01
15:17:21 <elliott> yeah, what's this america thing, it's just clog time.
15:17:23 <ais523_> I assumed you'd be using your own timezone...
15:17:30 <elliott> ais523_: i don't display timestamps :D
15:17:57 <ais523_> looks like just a connection drop, it was being dodgy
15:18:01 <ais523_> but normally it stays up while I'm not using it
15:18:07 <ais523_> which is bizarre, come to think of it
15:18:27 <elliott> do you just leave your laptop lying around opened? :D
15:18:40 <Gregor> Is there a "manwiki" (less gay than it sounds, I mean a wiki based on man pages)
15:20:04 <elliott> Gregor: I dunno if that'd actually be a good thing
15:20:09 <elliott> man pages are pretty well written when they exist
15:21:04 <Gregor> I'm thinking not to edit the man pages directly, but maybe be able to insert comments in between paragraphs ... things like "Note that malloc(0) has different behavior on different OSes" on the malloc page. Keep the base there, but add comments ... or something like that.
15:21:20 <elliott> Gregor: Wouldn't POSIXWiki be better for that :P
15:21:41 <elliott> Admittedly glibc's man pages are more useful/well-written than POSIX.
15:23:31 <ais523_> and BSD's are better still
15:23:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:23:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host).
15:23:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:24:10 <elliott> ais523_: are they? I haven't seen BSD libc documentation
15:24:14 <elliott> well, probably have, in OS X
15:24:25 <ais523_> I don't know first-hand, this is secondhand
15:24:33 <ais523_> BSD fans normally praise it over man page quality compared to Linux
15:24:43 <elliott> BSD fans praise everything about BSD over Linux.
15:24:49 -!- copumpkin has joined.
15:24:56 <ais523_> yes, but that in particular, and I wouldn't expect them to focus on something BSD was bad at
15:25:18 <elliott> ais523_: they don't think BSD's bad at anything :P
15:28:46 <Gregor> elliott: Where's NoGNU/Linux?
15:29:26 -!- pumpkin has joined.
15:30:45 <ais523_> a sort of reverse Debian GNU/kFreeBSD?
15:31:17 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
15:31:18 <elliott> ais523_: Kitten is basically NoGNU/Linux.
15:31:30 <ais523_> so is Android, come to think of it
15:32:01 <ais523_> but it's still using Linux as the kernel
15:32:09 <ais523_> I don't see why you have to be a UNIX to get slash notation
15:32:33 <ais523_> it seems perfect for explaining that you have something other than coreutils above the kernel, such as a JVM-alike
15:32:53 <ais523_> anyway, going back to ais523, these students seem unlikely to turn up now, and it's their fault they missed it if they do
15:33:06 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
15:37:30 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:56:58 -!- cheater- has joined.
15:57:22 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:19:35 <Gregor> Come to think of it, Android is a sort of NoGNU/Linux, innit?
16:19:45 <elliott> <ais523_> so is Android, come to think of it
16:19:53 <Gregor> Yes, I'm quoting that.
16:20:07 <Gregor> Oh, I didn't realize I was quoting the same phrasology in reverse :P
16:20:13 <elliott> I'd have said "IS a sort".
16:20:19 <Gregor> Does it have /any/ GNU software at all?
16:20:51 <ais523> http://danieltemkin.com/blog/post/Interview-with-ais523.aspx <--- ontopic
16:20:59 <Gregor> Typically it has busybox, doesn't have glibc ... still uses GCC and binutils, but those don't ship with it (bleh)
16:21:06 <elliott> Interview with ais523, this will be EXCITING
16:21:07 <ais523> also http://danieltemkin.com/blog/post/Interview-with-Keymaker.aspx if it hasn't been linked here yet
16:21:11 <elliott> oh, it's that daniel temkin guy
16:21:22 <ais523> just some random blogger who happens to be interested in esolangs, I think
16:21:29 <ais523> particularly Velato for some reason
16:21:31 <elliott> ais523: he invented Velato
16:21:41 <ais523> ah, that would explain his interest
16:21:58 <elliott> "He (Keymaker is anonymous but identifies as male)"
16:22:09 <elliott> THANK YOU FOR THE ELABORATION ON HOW THIS IS POSSIBLE, I AM NEW TO THESE INTER NETS AND AM UNFAMILIAR WITH ITS CULTURES
16:22:37 <elliott> at least keymaker capitalises brainfuck right
16:22:50 <ais523> and we both use capital B at the start of a sentence
16:23:04 <elliott> ais523 is anonymous but identifies as male/female
16:23:04 <ais523> Daniel Temkin gets it right too
16:23:09 <elliott> (re: "* ais523 [...] his/her")
16:23:11 <ais523> well, my real name is available
16:23:22 <ais523> although "Alex" isn't a particularly male or female name either
16:23:22 <elliott> ais523 is not anonymous but identifies as male/female
16:23:32 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:23:53 <elliott> ais523: I find it quite surprising that Keymaker isn't a programmer
16:24:23 <ais523> it's not that surprising, I suppose; "real" programming languages aren't all that interesting compared to esolangs
16:24:50 -!- elliott has left (?).
16:24:53 -!- elliott has joined.
16:24:54 <wareya> Now what's interesting is analyzing code that takes advantages of the pitfalls and errors in "real" languages.
16:25:12 <wareya> elliott: I find it fascinating
16:25:30 <Gregor> <ais523> although "Alex" isn't a particularly male or female name either // The sound "Alex" isn't specifically male or female, but AFAIK the spelling "Alex" is?
16:25:48 <ais523> Gregor: no, I've met female Alexes with the same spelling
16:25:55 <ais523> the spelling Alix is specifically female, but very rare
16:26:09 <Gregor> Usually the kind of people who name their daughters "Alex" are also the kind of people who name their daughters "Alix" or "Alyx" or "Ayliughx"
16:26:13 <ais523> and Alex is much more common even among female people named with a variant
16:26:23 <elliott> ais523: ++ temkin for referring to you as the C-INTERCAL maintainer :P
16:26:24 <wareya> I should make Alex not ping me.
16:26:28 <elliott> Gregor: Ayliughx. Brilliant.
16:26:41 <ais523> hmm, now I can make a guess as to your name
16:26:50 <wareya> ais523: It's my real name and I'm male.
16:26:55 <Gregor> elliott: My mom teaches kindergarten. Last year she had a student whose name was "Shyanne"
16:26:57 <ais523> now I don't have to guess
16:26:58 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
16:27:04 <Gregor> Worst name ever? Quite probably.
16:27:17 <ais523> how do you pronounce that?
16:27:48 <elliott> shayanne mountain facility
16:27:56 <Gregor> Like Cheyenne, but spelled by a retard.
16:28:35 <wareya> What's even worse is when a christian family names their son Krys.
16:29:39 <Gregor> Not sure which of those words is "correctly" spelled as "zchghe" :P
16:30:56 <Gregor> Here's my new name: Ghudjraieoughaiouxrh
16:31:05 -!- elliott has changed nick to Ghudjraieoughaio.
16:31:08 -!- Ghudjraieoughaio has changed nick to elliott.
16:31:52 -!- wareya has changed nick to Alyk_Meigatzroyd.
16:32:29 <Gregor> Heavens to Meigatzroyd!
16:33:19 -!- lambdabot has joined.
16:34:06 <elliott> DOES ANYTHING NOT PING YOU
16:34:38 <elliott> Alyk_Meigatzroyd: Srsly? :P
16:35:58 <elliott> ais523: CAN I INTERVIEW YOU
16:36:32 <elliott> hmm, I wonder if I can date this precisely with the Shiro mention
16:38:02 -!- oklopol has quit.
16:40:42 <elliott> "For instance, Unlambda has an i combinator that's equivalent to ``skk, but the language is much mathematically neater with it included, and it feels like it should be part of the language."
16:41:19 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it vastly reduces the size of most combinators.
16:43:22 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
16:46:05 <elliott> Some of the easiest ways to contact me are via IRC (I'm usually on #esoteric on the Freenode IRC network, irc.freenode.net, as "ais523"); email (if you're logged in on this wiki and have an email address verified, visit Special:Emailuser/Ais523; note that using that form will show me your email address, so that I can reply); and wiki talk page (edit User talk:ais523, and I'll see your message and be able to send replies via your own talk page, or
16:46:05 <elliott> on mine if you don't have an account).
16:46:08 <elliott> ais523: your ais-nesting is showing
16:50:35 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:53:10 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
16:54:55 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:55:07 <oerjan> <elliott> ais523: your ais-nesting is showing
16:55:19 <elliott> oerjan: ais523's patented English style
16:55:26 <elliott> AFAICT ais523 thinks in infix Lisp
16:55:46 <elliott> i.e. expr := (expr* op expr*) | obj
16:56:01 <elliott> and then that gets converted into parentheses, semicolons, commas, sentences, paragraphs
16:58:54 -!- pumpkin has joined.
16:59:01 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
16:59:38 <elliott> ais523: "It was nice to see my language Velato appear next to some of the old favorites like INTERCAL, brainfuck, and Whitespace." --Temkin
17:01:02 <tswett> He's a very inventory person.
17:02:56 <oerjan> tswett: he carries _everything_ with him, i take
17:05:04 <oerjan> ais523 + i, a complex combination
17:06:04 <tswett> You know, it seems like only recently does "inventory" mean "the stuff you're carrying".
17:08:07 <elliott> tswett: It's from text adventure games, obviously.
17:08:14 <elliott> Because "> inv" produces an INVENTORY of what you were carrying.
17:08:25 <elliott> Which caused the obvious linguistic evolution among nerds.
17:08:42 <elliott> Because object X is "not in your inventory", which is obviously ambiguous in the right way.
17:09:25 <tswett> Likewise, only recently does "account" mean "electronic record of a person". It used to just mean "record of money possessed or owed".
17:10:10 <tswett> (Or "description of what happened".)
17:14:28 <elliott> 18:23:28 <Sukoshi> I forget, do you enjoy functional programming Pikhq ?
17:14:28 <elliott> 18:24:01 <Pikhq> Sukoshi: Meh.
17:14:33 <elliott> 18:24:11 <Pikhq> I'm more of an imperative thinker.
17:14:52 <tswett> pikhq is Josiah Worcester, right?
17:15:15 <elliott> He makes Worcestershire sauce.
17:15:24 <tswett> Is the shire named after him?
17:15:48 <oerjan> proving that pikhq is a hobbit
17:16:01 <tswett> Worcestershire has been around for quite a while. How old is pikhq, anyway?
17:16:04 <elliott> oerjan: That's a bad hobbit you've got there.
17:16:09 <elliott> tswett: Older than Worcestershire.
17:17:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Worcestershire was established in antiquity, apparently.
17:17:35 <tswett> So pikhq is pre-antiquitous?
17:17:39 <oerjan> elliott: well we have to do something when it's 40 comics until next DMM hobbituary
17:19:51 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: impossible. Oxford is the oldest thing in the world.
17:20:04 <elliott> MY FRIEND AT OXFORD CONFIRMS.
17:20:17 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, oh, so you're an Oxfordist, a believer in a breakaway sect of Last Thursdayism?
17:20:18 <elliott> In fact, Oxford is older than time itself.
17:20:32 <tswett> Oxford is exactly 900 years old, which is the oldest that anything can possibly be.
17:20:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Shut up, everybody knows you're a Cambridgean shithead.
17:20:40 <tswett> Once something gets that old, it stops getting older.
17:20:45 <tswett> And, unless it's Oxford, it vanishes.
17:20:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: YOU THINK CAMBRIDGE IS OLDER THAN OXFORD.
17:20:52 <elliott> tswett: I like this theory.
17:21:00 <elliott> tswett: So will the Earth eventually disappear leaving only Oxford floating in space?
17:21:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WE ALL KNOW YOU THINK IT
17:21:34 <tswett> elliott: only if Earth reaches 900 years old. It might stop sooner than that.
17:22:23 <tswett> Carbon dating has shown Earth to be about 850 years old. Since it appears that Earth was around when Oxford was founded, most people believe that Earth has stopped getting older.
17:22:35 <tswett> Leaving Oxford as the oldest thing in the world.
17:23:03 <elliott> 19:02:17 * oerjan will propel things into the age of Aquarius for food.
17:23:03 <tswett> Others believe that Earth is actually older than Oxford, but it's exempt from the disappearing law, since Earth is not exactly "in the world".
17:23:08 <elliott> oerjan: is that offer still good?
17:23:13 <oerjan> it's good that earth knows its limitations
17:23:32 <oerjan> elliott: I'M PROPELLING AS WE SPEAK
17:24:04 <elliott> oerjan: will you reach your destination in december 2012?
17:24:19 <oerjan> depends what the destination is
17:24:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: same thing
17:24:58 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, no, Cincinnati is the place to be when the world ends.
17:28:32 <elliott> <elliottcable> elliott: (elliottt?) damn you for stealing my name
17:28:33 <elliott> <elliottcable> elliott: every single message you send (or that is sent to you) fuckin’ hilights me! D:
17:28:39 <elliott> Ha, revenge for him being an irritating prick.
17:32:41 <elliott> <elliottcable> elliott: I’ve been very prolific on Freenode for half a decade now
17:36:03 -!- cal153 has joined.
17:37:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:37:27 <elliott> my design question in #haskell has been met with the resounding response of zero people
17:37:30 <elliott> therefore, it falls to oerjan
17:37:46 <elliott> <elliott> I've been thinking about how to structure a certain pattern of code in my program. It's an interpreter. When any instruction fails in a specific way, I halt the execution of the rest of the instruction, run an error handler, and go immediately on to the next instruction, but *without* reverting the state changes caused by the failing instruction. I don't need any kind of error messages -- there is one and only one way to handle "an erro
17:37:47 <elliott> <elliott> . In practice, there are usually three ways this error is caused: (1) An IO error fails. I have a special liftIO variant for this, which catches IO exceptions, and throws my own special exception type with the current state, where it is restored by the handler and continued with. This is very ugly. (2) A map lookup or similar yielding Nothing, so that my code looks like "case x of { Nothing -> handleErr; Just x -> do ... long stuff ...}
17:37:51 <elliott> <elliott> ntation rapidly piles on and it gets very ugly. And (3), basically the same as (2), is "if bad then handleErr else (lots and lots of stuff)". I'm wondering what the most elegant way to handle this in Haskell in my monad stack would be. Possibly having the instruction-executing actions be "MaybeT MyMonad" rather than "MyMonad", and handling the Nothing? Basically, I want to be able to have this kind of failure support without nesting my
17:38:00 <elliott> <elliott> inity and writing lots of boilerplate every time I want a Just.
17:38:02 <elliott> <elliott> Perhaps the continuation monad would help?
17:39:51 <cheater-> that might be because your question has the coherence of a five year old's question about how trees work
17:42:33 <Gregor> oerjan: Why is the sky blue?
17:43:06 -!- azaq23 has joined.
17:44:34 <Gregor> elliott: I actually see elliottcable all over the damned place :P
17:45:00 <elliott> Gregor: Then you'll know he's incredibly irritating.
17:45:08 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:45:19 <Gregor> elliott: I said "see", not "talk to" :P
17:45:25 <elliott> (Maybe he's improved in the last year or so, but seriously, he tarnished the name "elliott", and that's coming from me, not exactly the least irritating person around.)
17:45:46 <elliott> Gregor: He's a major Apple fanboi, lives in Alaska and votes Republican -- this goes up to likes Sarah Palin
17:47:48 <elliott> oerjan: FIGURED IT OUT YET
17:48:15 <elliott> Well, I'm pretty sure he voted/would vote for her.
17:48:21 <elliott> I don't think he's actually said "I LIKE SARAH PALIN", but yeah.
17:48:41 <elliott> Anyway he's pretty much the worst in every respect any person could possibly be the worst; he maximises worseness.
17:49:10 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
17:49:27 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
17:49:41 <elliott> He maximises terribleness in far, far more subtle ways.
17:50:06 <elliott> Agonisingly he's actually been here before. But he was so boring that nobody paid any attention.
17:52:02 <Gregor> <elliott> ... I LIKE SARAH PALIN ...
17:52:21 <Gregor> <elliott...> I LIKE SARAH PALIN
17:53:08 <Gregor> elliottcable is also in every JS-related channel btw.
17:53:24 <Gregor> 'cuz mixing JS and Haskell = classy
17:54:50 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, he's a Web 2.0 Ruby fag.
17:55:46 <Gregor> "HEY GUYS THEY ADDED RUBY TO HTML5 <trollface/>"
17:56:30 -!- Behold has joined.
17:57:03 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: FIGURED IT OUT YET <-- um the "argh" meant basically that my brain refused to try
17:57:14 <elliott> oerjan: but i gave TWO possible solutions!
17:57:53 <oerjan> the programs i write in haskell are usually _not_ heavy in monad stacks.
17:58:34 <Gregor> elliott: This is because oerjan is better than you, and you should feel bad.
17:59:10 <elliott> oerjan: my monad stack is just StateT IO, sheesh
18:00:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:04:03 <elliott> oerjan: well is it appropriate for #haskell-in-depth do you think, maybe people will listen there ;D
18:04:09 <elliott> you're probably too old to know that :D
18:04:42 <oerjan> yes i've never been there
18:07:24 <Gregor> #haskell-so-deep-ooh-yeah-baby-map-my-functor
18:08:07 <Ilari> APNIC down N/A: 32k+16k+1k to Japan, 1k+256 to India, 1k to Malaysia, 64k to Australia, 512+/32 to Indonesia, 4k to New Caledonia, /32 to <unknown(AP)>.
18:10:44 <Ilari> The only allocations that <AP> has is 2x/32s, diffrent holders, both allocated this year.
18:10:58 <Ilari> ... From APNIC that is.
18:12:14 <oerjan> Gregor: i think that should be #haskell-zygohistomorphic-prepromorphisms
18:13:28 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:13:40 <cheater-> oerjan: i think it should be #oerjan
18:14:43 <Ilari> AP is reserved country code (and the meaning it usually has would be pretty insane for present purposes).
18:18:03 * oerjan notes how Ilari doesn't actually mention which country it is
18:20:19 <Gregor> I don't think ap is reserved for any particular country, it's just reserved as a two-letter domain for that purpose.
18:21:35 -!- cal153 has quit.
18:24:07 <fizzie> "In addition, the ISO 3166/MA will not use the following alpha-2 codes at the present stage, as they are used for international intellectual property organizations in WIPO Standard ST.3: AP: African Regional Industrial Property Organization"
18:27:09 <elliott> pikhq_: What's 512 in moonspeak
18:28:07 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:28:16 -!- copumpkin has joined.
18:28:22 <elliott> fizzie: Hey, can I get your nasm-mode again?
18:28:47 <fizzie> It most likely still is wherever I put it.
18:28:57 <fizzie> zem.fi/~fis/nasm-mode.el perhaps.
18:29:47 <fizzie> So's half the world. (There are 714 files there. Should clean up some day.)
18:29:58 <elliott> Or send us a directory listing.
18:30:16 <fizzie> There might be SECRETS.
18:30:56 <elliott> fizzie: You Finns have way too fucking many secrets.
18:33:26 <Gregor> (Not as good as having way too many fucking secrets)
18:34:52 -!- cal153 has joined.
18:36:39 <elliott> revelation of the day: "priveledge" makes my blood curdle
18:37:47 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:37:49 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:39:51 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:40:49 <elliott> hey olsner, link me to your protected mode thing again :P
18:42:59 -!- pingveno has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:43:22 -!- pingveno has joined.
18:47:51 -!- Behold has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:47:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:54:34 <elliott> olsner: don't laugh, clearly what 512 byte forth floppies need is protected mode code.
18:55:18 <olsner> I have a newer version of that code in my git repo... but I think the changes to that part of it are all related to long mode
18:56:03 <olsner> it's up to 2.7k or something nowadays
18:56:45 <Gregor> Do you REALLY need 512 bytes for Forth? :P
18:56:50 -!- impomatic has joined.
18:57:24 <elliott> Gregor: It's actually 510 bytes you have... and seriously, 512 bytes is tiny.
18:57:30 <elliott> ¸^A$Í^Uú^O^A^V0|^O À^L^A^O"Àê6|^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@ÿÿ^@^@^@<9a>Ï^@ÿÿ^@^@^@<92>Ï^@^W^@^Xü^@^@ôëþ^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^
18:57:31 <elliott> @^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^
18:57:32 <elliott> @^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@^@Uª
18:57:37 <olsner> and I think over a hundred of the bytes go to getting into protected mode
18:57:41 <elliott> ^ That's more than the entire boot sector space.
18:57:44 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, I know, I'm just being obnoxious :P
18:57:45 <elliott> (More because of the ^@ escape :P)
18:58:01 <Gregor> 512 bytes IS pretty darn small.
18:58:01 <elliott> olsner: yeah... i'm doing everything the imperfect way to cram it all in
18:58:02 <olsner> i.e. not even usable by the forth part
18:58:12 <elliott> impomatic: yep, to run Forth
18:58:43 <elliott> impomatic: It's not going to be easy X-D
18:59:19 <elliott> impomatic: In what, Redcode?
18:59:38 <olsner> elliott: can't be *that* hard, can it?
18:59:42 <elliott> I'm doing it in flat protected mode because having instructions to futz with the segment register doesn't sound fun.
18:59:52 <impomatic> Gregor: http://corewar.co.uk/assembly/forth.htm
18:59:54 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:00:01 <olsner> elliott: no-one does segmentation in protected mode
19:00:15 <elliott> olsner: I mean, no protection at all.
19:00:22 <Gregor> impomatic: Outstanding.
19:00:25 <elliott> olsner: Dude, a Forth requires a compiler, a linked-list dictionary with built-in words like @ and ! built in...
19:00:34 <elliott> olsner: Oh, and I'll need to handle keyboard input.
19:00:42 <elliott> And since I'm in protected-mode, no BIOS to do it for me.
19:00:47 <elliott> tl;dr this is going to be anything but easy.
19:00:50 <olsner> yes, paging is a bit irksome to set up, at least compared to not doing it
19:01:09 <elliott> well it's Forth, you should be able to poke to random locations and read it back later :D
19:01:18 <impomatic> Gregor: it's only a subset. One day I might code the full ANS standard in Redcode ;-)
19:01:19 <elliott> like typing into a commodore 64, except...forth, and x86
19:01:31 <olsner> you can write the paging in forth after that if you like
19:01:41 <elliott> gonna have some kind of machine code instruction
19:01:45 <elliott> : + [ 39847349538495349759834 asm ] ;
19:01:59 <elliott> ok, so i'll probably only do hex literals :P
19:02:08 <elliott> impomatic: hmm, have you got a link to your x86 forth?
19:02:24 <elliott> i like your stack notation on the underload page, btw
19:03:03 <olsner> hmm, why bother with hex even, just write the bytes directly with some kind of escaping mechanism?
19:03:17 <impomatic> elliott: it's not online because I'm still playing with it.
19:03:17 <Gregor> I think the hardest thing to fit with Forth will be the initial dictionary.
19:03:45 <elliott> impomatic: No fair, I wanna steal your code :)
19:03:59 <elliott> olsner: Can't do that on a keyboard without extra code to handle that X-D
19:04:04 <elliott> Gregor: With an asm word, you don't need niceties such as +.
19:04:16 <impomatic> elliott: see eForth and Jones Forth. They're pretty easy to understand.
19:04:17 <elliott> Gregor: In fact, even @ and ! can be defined later, though I'd really rather they weren't.
19:04:23 <elliott> impomatic: Yeah, but jonesforth is really big.
19:04:35 <olsner> elliott: hmm, that's true...
19:04:39 <elliott> Gregor: I mean, at the bare minimum you need, like, :, [, ], and some asm instruction.
19:04:55 <elliott> Gregor: Actually I hope to avoid [ and ], I think colorForth has no immediate words, which will be simpler to do than the traditional way.
19:04:55 <Gregor> elliott: Just don't name the asm word "asm" :P
19:05:07 <elliott> Gregor: I was thinking I'd call it "x86" :P
19:05:08 <olsner> hmm, keyboard handling might be messy if you do everything yourself ... it's not as if the keyboard sends ascii characters
19:05:21 <Gregor> elliott: No, give it one character, that saves you two bytes ;)
19:05:37 <elliott> Gregor: Uhh, not if I pack names into 1.5 words!
19:05:49 <impomatic> Why not code top down from the outer interpreter and only code words actually required to get it working.
19:06:04 <elliott> olsner: well maybe i'll just index the dictionary with scancodes!
19:06:11 <elliott> impomatic: Top down Forth?
19:06:21 <elliott> Isn't Forth the *definition* of bottom-up? :)
19:06:28 <impomatic> I've seen a Forth that stores word names as the first two characters plus the length. That might save some space.
19:06:38 <elliott> Anyway, I'm going to get into protected mode before I start on the Forth. And maybe get keyboard input going.
19:06:45 <elliott> Nice uniqueness guarantee :P
19:06:53 <Gregor> Two chars PLUS LENGTH!
19:07:33 <Gregor> I suppose every bit you save by clever packing costs you many more than one bit in writing an unpacking algo :P
19:07:57 <impomatic> The code for NEXT is called at the end of every machine code word. Maybe use INT 3 for NEXT.
19:08:02 <elliott> Actually the GDT is uncomfortably big.
19:08:05 <elliott> I wonder if I can just not load any gdt at all.
19:08:16 <elliott> impomatic: That would require enabling interrupts and setting up an interrupt table thing.
19:08:31 <olsner> I think you can overwrite the GDT after loading segment registers from it
19:08:40 <elliott> I was thinking something like
19:09:30 <olsner> but afaik the only way to get proper values into the segment registers is to have a GDT to load them from
19:09:33 <elliott> olsner: Can't I just have a 0 base, 0 limit GDT table?! :P
19:09:49 <olsner> you can, but then you can't load anything from it
19:10:01 <elliott> olsner: So I'd have a completely empty memory space? :P
19:10:22 <olsner> no, you'd still have the segment values as they were given to your from real mode
19:10:30 <olsner> so you have like 5x64k addressible
19:10:44 <elliott> olsner: that sounds good enough to me!
19:10:59 <elliott> olsner: that's 640 sectors, after all
19:11:07 <elliott> wait isn't it 640k, not 320k?
19:11:26 <olsner> right, sectors are small
19:11:57 <olsner> no, because your addressible memory space is limited by the number of segment registers you have
19:12:26 <olsner> each one has a limit of 64k left-over from real mode, and can point to different places in the first 1MB
19:12:52 <olsner> and you can't load them with nice protected-mode values unless you have a GDT to load from
19:13:05 <elliott> in letting me load my segment registers
19:13:35 -!- augur has joined.
19:14:06 <olsner> the cpu is really picky about not letting you access the useful (invisible) part of the segment-register state
19:14:33 <olsner> there is/was an undocumented instruction for loading all state, including the shadow state, from memory
19:14:49 <olsner> but I doubt that ends up shorter than setting up a gdt
19:16:50 <pikhq_> Well, that was pointless.
19:17:02 <elliott> olsner: maybe it won't fault like the gdt is doing :D
19:17:09 -!- copumpkin has joined.
19:17:21 <pikhq_> For various reasons that I'd rather not talk about, I got referred to a psychiatrist to gauge my level of "disability" from autism...
19:17:57 <pikhq_> What this actually consisted of was the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale, or as it is more commonly known, an IQ test.
19:18:01 <elliott> Pshht, loser, I relayed EVERY DETAIL of the unit and you won't even write us a novel on the channel!
19:18:33 <pikhq_> elliott: Okay, fine, fine.
19:18:51 <pikhq_> elliott: I was strongly encouraged by my parents to apply for Supplemental Disability Income from Social Security.
19:18:54 <olsner> elliott: I suspect the opcode simply means a completely different thing on modern cpus
19:18:55 <elliott> so wait what was the iq result, tarded out of 200?
19:19:04 <pikhq_> elliott: Dunno, just took it.
19:19:38 <pikhq_> But judging from how I completed sections of it, and the test is designed so that you only do as much of each section as you are capable...
19:20:07 <pikhq_> Of course, my *intelligence* is not in doubt by anyone even vaguely sane.
19:20:14 <pikhq_> A hell of a lot of other things, perhaps, but not that!
19:22:16 <olsner> since you failed to emulate human behavior (which would be failing the test), you are clearly very badly disabled by your autism
19:22:24 <pikhq_> One of the portions of the test, curiously enough, is actually noted to be performed *significantly better* by autistics.
19:22:44 <pikhq_> Even those who are incapable of, say, speech.
19:23:07 <elliott> pikhq_: Maybe they're looking for a HIGH score :P
19:23:16 <elliott> "You did way too fucking well at this, you're probably autistic."
19:23:29 <elliott> olsner: so wait, why can't i just pop random shit into the segment registers
19:23:44 <elliott> pikhq_: "Dude, the test involved arranging blocks into certain patterns for SIX HOURS. You completed ALL of them."
19:24:15 <pikhq_> elliott: That is the test that autistics perform better than normal, actually.
19:24:34 <olsner> elliott: mov cs, foo means "look up index foo in the GDT and load the information into the shadow part of CS, also set the visible part of CS to foo"
19:24:40 <pikhq_> 1 hour for the whole thing.
19:24:46 <olsner> the visible part is a useless index in protected mode
19:24:54 <elliott> olsner: hmm, could I do that in real mode put poke the right things in so i get a nice protected mode segment? i suppose not
19:25:53 <pikhq_> Hmm. It seems to me that you actually *could* use this IQ test as a gauge of autism. "Performance IQ" should be significantly higher than "Verbal IQ".
19:25:56 <olsner> no, when you do mov cs, foo in real mode, that means "set the shadow part of CS to base foo*16 and limit 64k"
19:26:04 <elliott> olsner: this shit is laaame
19:26:08 <olsner> limt 64k makes it suck
19:26:22 <elliott> "Because LOADALL did not perform any checks on the validity of the data loaded into processor registers, it was possible to load a processor state which could not be normally entered, such as using real mode (PE=0) together with paging (PG=1) on 386 class CPUs[3]."
19:26:28 <elliott> olsner: real mode + paging, best thing ever?
19:26:48 <elliott> Yeah, loadall's table takes way too many bytes :P
19:26:48 <olsner> or you could get unreal mode without paging, probably more useful for your case
19:26:59 <elliott> hmm, i don't actually load an idt
19:27:04 <elliott> that's probably bad, isn't it?
19:27:11 <elliott> or do you not actually need one of you keep interrupts off
19:27:11 <pikhq_> elliott: "Real mode + paging" is 286 protected mode...
19:27:46 <pikhq_> ... Waitwaitwait, loadall could get you actual real mode with actual paging?
19:28:18 <olsner> with interrupts off, you only need an IDT if you cause faults
19:28:26 <olsner> (so don't do that unless you have an IDT :P)
19:29:03 <olsner> but maybe you want an IDT to get keyboard interrupts anyway?
19:29:08 <elliott> i guess i'm assuming that the bios sets the segments right for tht
19:29:20 <elliott> hmm, keyboard interrupts... can't you just talk to the keyboard port?
19:29:43 <olsner> is that an attempted jump into protected mode? the bios does *not* set up the right kind of CS for that :P
19:30:29 <olsner> (erase that, that makes no sense since a far jump sets CS anyway)
19:31:22 <elliott> hmm, fixed my stupid bug and it still doesn't work, i hate how that happens
19:31:29 <elliott> "OH! this is it!" "or nrot"
19:32:25 <olsner> hmm, 0 is a special selector, so I don't think that works
19:33:09 <olsner> not sure how much of that is actually validated, but the first entry in the GDT is reserved because the null selector is reserved
19:33:20 <elliott> https://gist.github.com/657234/53d3f5ea07972cd7b02b27b030a5b22e652d2726
19:33:30 <elliott> what segment do you start it at there :D
19:33:47 <elliott> define_descriptor 0xffff,0,0,RX_ACCESS,0xcf,0
19:34:09 <elliott> so if i make a label to it koed i want to jmp to (koed-gdt):prot
19:34:11 <olsner> yes, that's 8, which is what code_seg is equ'd to
19:34:38 <elliott> hmm, can you avoid specifying the null segment somehow i wonder :)
19:34:39 <Gregor> So glad I've never written boot sector code >_>
19:34:56 <olsner> I *think* that you can store anything in there really
19:35:25 <olsner> why would you end up reading the entry for a selector you can't load anyway
19:36:20 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:37:05 -!- copumpkin has joined.
19:39:41 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:40:59 <olsner> hmm, apparently you are free to load the null selector, but as soon as you use it you'll get a #GP
19:41:14 <elliott> olsner: what if i trap the gp and ignore it!
19:42:00 <olsner> then you're stuck with ignoring GP:s and retrying a faulting instruction for ever
19:42:18 <olsner> or, if you skip the instructions that fault, a program that fails to do a lot
19:42:34 <elliott> does the gdt need to be aligned 4?
19:43:03 <elliott> olsner: hmm, can you not have a segment that's +rwx?
19:43:08 <elliott> do you really need two identical +rw and +rx ones?
19:44:16 <olsner> I think it's really a bit that says "Code" or "Data" segment, and that you can only run code from code segments
19:44:29 <elliott> olsner: but can you poke data in code segments?
19:44:30 <Ilari> AFAIK, segment can't be RWX. Because only code segments can be executable and only data segments can be writable.
19:44:49 <elliott> Ilari: does that apply to original x86 or only modern things?
19:44:51 <olsner> no, you poke in a different segment that happens to share memory with the code segment :)
19:45:00 <elliott> olsner: but that's _extra_ _bytes_
19:45:11 <olsner> elliott: just xor with 8 after loading cs, then load ds
19:45:31 <olsner> I *think* that should work :)
19:45:35 <elliott> olsner: err, but it still has to be in my gdt, doesn't it?
19:45:45 <elliott> are you SURE that's legal :D
19:45:50 -!- Behold has joined.
19:46:18 <Ilari> At least appiled to original x86. On modern things, I don't even recall if you have to define segments for ordinary segments.
19:46:25 <olsner> I think it's fairly well-defined when the segments are reloaded, because everyone does weird shit that relies on old shadow state being left
19:47:10 <Gregor> "Well defined" is so much different from "defined well" :)
19:47:12 <elliott> that xor prolly isn't valid
19:47:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:47:45 <elliott> olsner: well x86 is generally a dick about what you can dereference
19:47:50 <elliott> i'd expect to have to move rw into eax first :)
19:48:06 <elliott> hmm, what are es, fs, gs, ss again :)
19:48:36 <elliott> gdtr:dw gdt_end-gdt-1 ; limit
19:49:10 <impomatic> There was a bootsector writing contest last year... http://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=170511#p170511
19:49:30 <elliott> are es, fs, gs, ss data segments?
19:49:40 <elliott> oh, stack segment, "extra segment", general purpose segments
19:49:46 <elliott> so, they should all be data segments basically
19:49:54 <olsner> yep, all data segments
19:50:14 <elliott> hmm, is "mov ax, LIT; mov [defgs]s, ax" shorter than "mov [defgs]s, LIT"? :-P
19:50:43 <elliott> actually... i can probably leave fs and gs unset, can't I?
19:50:56 <elliott> because, well, the basic Forth won't use it!
19:51:10 <olsner> es is used by string instructions, so is useful to have pointing to the same as ds
19:51:37 <elliott> does the stack need to be in ss? :D
19:51:58 <olsner> yes, the stack instructions use the ss segment :)
19:52:00 <fizzie> And there is no "mov segreg, immediate" at all; it's just mov segreg, reg16/mem16.
19:53:46 <elliott> olsner: But fs and gs I can neglect :P
19:54:01 <olsner> yes, unless you find a use for them
19:54:14 <elliott> I don't have enough bytes to find uses.
19:55:21 <elliott> sixth.s:14: error: expression syntax error
19:55:29 <fizzie> ES is I guess only used implicitly by the ES:DI pair of the string instructions, so you can ignore that too if you don't use MOVS/STOS/SCAS (LODS uses DS:SI). Of course if you're saving bytes, the string instructions themselves often do that.
19:55:35 <elliott> unless seg is a keyword or whatever
19:56:23 <fizzie> SEG's a NASM operator, yes.
19:56:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:56:34 <fizzie> It returns the segment of the argument.
19:56:41 <olsner> you can save one byte by loading the immediate in 16-bit mode before jumping into 32-bit
19:56:48 <elliott> fizzie: i like how you don't highlight it :)))
19:57:14 <elliott> now it's the much more readable "sg"
19:57:58 <elliott> wonder if xor word or whatever is shorter than xor byte :D
19:58:01 <fizzie> elliott: You can add it to the nasm-named-operators list; actually I feel like I already did this once, maybe the copy is old. (Or maybe I just thought I should.)
19:58:29 <olsner> elliott: check the output in a disassembler, and/or ask for a listing file from nasm
19:58:48 <olsner> but the immediate is obviously one byte larger in word form
19:59:26 <olsner> the byte form might use a special byte-opcode, while the word-form in 32-bit mode might end up using a operand size prefix
20:00:03 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:00:04 <elliott> can you lgdt something that's not [foo] then?
20:00:10 <elliott> JUST THINKIN' OUT LOUD HERE
20:00:30 <olsner> you can also try the btr or btc instruction instead of xor
20:00:44 <olsner> or bts, I forgot if you're setting the bit or clearing it
20:01:21 <elliott> lol, i can't use ndisasm olsner :/
20:01:29 <elliott> to get the 32-bit parts to disassembly correctly
20:01:32 <elliott> 00007C16 EA1B7C08008035 jmp dword 0x3580:0x87c1b
20:01:32 <elliott> 00007C1D 367C00 ss jl 0x7c20
20:01:32 <elliott> 00007C20 0008 add [eax],cl
20:01:45 <elliott> because of the previous 16-bit code
20:01:46 <fizzie> You can ask for the listing file, though.
20:01:54 <olsner> use the -e flag to ignore the prefix then
20:02:10 <elliott> olsner: I dunno whether I'm setting it or clearing it :-D
20:02:12 <olsner> fizzie: I told him about the listing file first! :P
20:02:18 <fizzie> nasm ... -l foo.lst or something.
20:02:35 <olsner> he didn't listen though :(
20:02:48 <elliott> 20 0000001B 8035[36000000]08 prot: xor byte [rw], 8
20:03:07 -!- augur has joined.
20:03:07 -!- cheater- has joined.
20:03:13 <olsner> oh my, a 32-bit offset :(
20:03:46 <olsner> no, you just flip the code/data bit
20:03:55 <elliott> can't you have read but no write or exec? :D
20:04:10 <olsner> look at the values of RX_ACCESS and RW_ACCESS :)
20:04:28 <olsner> they only differ in one bit
20:05:33 <fizzie> Incidentally, I hope you're using "-Ox" when assembling? NASM won't always use the shortest forms automagically if not.
20:06:29 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:07:09 <elliott> olsner: so i turn off bit 3
20:07:17 <elliott> (with least-significant = bit 0)
20:07:34 <elliott> i'll try btc or btr or whatever
20:07:36 <olsner> I hope that's how bt* counts it anyway :P
20:08:24 <olsner> (well, obviously it is because I'm using it like that and it works)
20:08:43 <elliott> hmm, how do you use btr :D
20:09:03 <elliott> also is its argument lsb=0 or msb=0?
20:09:21 <elliott> anyway what does the [] stuff mean
20:09:51 <olsner> it just indicates which part of the instruction is the offset, I think
20:10:12 <elliott> "btr 3, [rw]" isn't right apparently :(
20:10:31 <olsner> no, destinations go on the left
20:11:20 <fizzie> I don't think it's any shorter either, since the BT* immediates are one byte too.
20:11:24 <fizzie> But of course it might.
20:11:31 <elliott> i should learn to read the "BTR r/m16, r16" things
20:12:41 <olsner> try with btr dword[foo]
20:13:09 <elliott> ...but then i'd have to change the offset :D
20:13:25 <olsner> istr getting hit by that - even though there is only a single valid combination of operands, you have to specify that you mean it
20:13:32 <Sgeo> Ok, I was full of myself as a kid
20:13:37 <Sgeo> "One of the core aspects of this demo"
20:13:48 <olsner> elliott: no you don't, the first bits are in the same place regardless
20:13:50 <fizzie> olsner: Probably word for 16-bit-mode code?
20:13:51 <olsner> little-endian you know
20:14:06 <Sgeo> ..() //Call parent
20:14:13 <elliott> 20 0000001B 0FBA35[37000000]03 prot: btr dword [rw], 3
20:14:16 <olsner> I think he's in 32-bit here
20:14:20 <elliott> what if i relocated the gdt :)
20:14:24 <Sgeo> I wish I commented this code better. Preferably without comments such as that.
20:14:25 <elliott> olsner: of course i am, i'm loading the segments
20:14:29 <elliott> can you load the segments in 16-bit code?
20:15:08 <olsner> hmm, you should be able to, I think
20:15:31 <Sgeo> Ok, I see what I did?
20:15:32 <olsner> dunno if it's the CS that decides what you mean by loading segment registers, or if it's the PE flag that does that
20:15:33 <elliott> then it has to start as +rw
20:15:40 <Sgeo> Does anyone want to see code I wrote as a kid?
20:15:42 <elliott> so i need to set cs manuall
20:15:50 <elliott> which may just end up longer.
20:15:58 <Sgeo> I'll take that "y" to mean "yes"
20:16:19 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/1622151
20:16:19 <olsner> just load data segments, swizzle the bit, then far jump?
20:17:18 <elliott> saved one byte over the previous 58 bytes
20:17:41 <elliott> which is less good than the previous behaviour i think
20:17:57 <olsner> hmm, where does it fault? when loading the ds or in the jump?
20:18:26 <elliott> olsner: err, you think i'm using bochs or some other similarly helpful thing?
20:18:32 <elliott> it's qemu, if the screen flickers it's rebooting constantly.
20:18:42 <elliott> ========================================================================
20:18:42 <elliott> Message: dlopen failed for module 'x': file not found
20:18:46 <elliott> bochs is going well already
20:19:31 <elliott> how do i get it to tell me the cause of the fault :D
20:19:50 <elliott> 00561669756e[CPU0 ] check_cs(0x0008): not a valid code segment !
20:19:50 <elliott> 00561669756e[CPU0 ] interrupt(): gate descriptor is not valid sys seg (vector=0x0d)
20:19:50 <elliott> 00561669756e[CPU0 ] interrupt(): gate descriptor is not valid sys seg (vector=0x08)
20:19:50 <elliott> 00561669756i[CPU0 ] CPU is in protected mode (active)
20:20:03 <elliott> olsner: so i guess "bts dword [rx], 3" isn't doing what i want it to do.
20:20:18 <oerjan> ^ul (()(^)()()(^)()(^:^^:^)()()(^^)):^^:^
20:20:49 <oerjan> ^ul (()()()(^^(^))()(^)()()(^)()()(^)()(^:^S:^^:^)()()()()(^^^^)):^^:^
20:20:50 <fungot> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ...too much output!
20:21:16 <oerjan> those were the conversion of (:^):^ and ((^)S:^):^, respectively
20:21:55 <elliott> oerjan: here's my conversion of the former
20:22:54 <oerjan> it's a good sign that the test programs run right, you'd think
20:23:41 <oerjan> ^ul (()()()(^^(^))()()(^)()(^:^S)()()()()(^^^^))(()(^)()()()(^^^(:))()()(^)()(^:^S)()()()()()(^^^^^)):^^:^^:^^^:^
20:23:52 <oerjan> that was ((^)S)((:)S):^!^
20:24:38 <elliott> or a sex position, same thing
20:24:52 <olsner> elliott: oh! you're probably getting the segments the wrong way around now
20:25:14 <oerjan> elliott: there's a slight chance it might become rather large, i think :D
20:25:31 <olsner> if you're loading ds first, the initial contents has to be the data one, and you need to use the right bit-fiddling to make it into a code one
20:25:39 <elliott> olsner: SEE, IT'S PERSCHFET
20:25:43 <elliott> i'm not that much of a moron dude moron
20:25:57 <elliott> ;rw:db 10011010b ; +rx -- this changes into +rw later
20:25:58 <olsner> <elliott> i'm not that much of a moron dude moron <elliott> oh wait
20:26:26 <elliott> relink me to that gist agani
20:26:38 <olsner> you don't have undo close tab?
20:27:24 <elliott> olsner: i think the bts is doing the wrong thing somehow
20:27:27 <elliott> because the rest is all perfect
20:27:30 <elliott> and it only complains about cs
20:27:42 <elliott> 00098292206i[CPU0 ] | CS:0000( 0004| 0| 0) 00000000 0000ffff 0 0
20:27:42 <elliott> 00098292206i[CPU0 ] | DS:0008( 0005| 0| 0) 00000080 0000ffff 0 0
20:27:42 <elliott> 00098292206i[CPU0 ] | SS:0008( 0005| 0| 0) 00000080 0000ffff 0 0
20:27:42 <elliott> 00098292206i[CPU0 ] | ES:0008( 0005| 0| 0) 00000080 0000ffff 0 0
20:27:42 <elliott> 00098292206i[CPU0 ] | FS:0000( 0005| 0| 0) 00000000 0000ffff 0 0
20:27:42 <elliott> 00098292206i[CPU0 ] | GS:0000( 0005| 0| 0) 00000000 0000ffff 0 0
20:27:56 <elliott> maybe it doesn't show you the new value of cs
20:28:01 <elliott> if it complains while doing a far jump to set cs
20:28:06 <olsner> hmm, you're not changing the *first* byte of the segment descriptor are you?
20:28:27 <olsner> the flags is like the sixth byte or something
20:28:40 <olsner> right. not that at least
20:29:19 <elliott> maybe it's just my ram flipping bits thanks to cosmic things
20:29:25 <elliott> to teach me about how useful ecc is
20:29:37 <olsner> well, what is the actual contents of this memory at this point?
20:30:13 <olsner> the relevant parts, duh
20:30:27 <elliott> which parts are relevant, or wait
20:30:29 <olsner> the parts pertaining specifically to the issue at hand
20:30:32 <elliott> do you want me to get out a debugger and print rw?
20:30:37 <elliott> because, jeez, that sounds complicated :/
20:30:53 <elliott> asm needs a printf statement
20:31:06 <elliott> just prints to the most useful console available :D
20:31:40 <olsner> hmm, these protected-mode segments you just loaded have 0 as the base
20:31:55 <olsner> maybe that doesn't match the segment you're trying to address rw relative to
20:33:20 <olsner> *the segment nasm thinks you're trying to
20:34:44 <elliott> olsner: that line was stolen from you, so yeah
20:35:37 <olsner> actually, that origin is off by around 0x7c00 bytes
20:35:56 <olsner> 0x8000 in my case, 0x7c00 in your case
20:36:03 <elliott> i didn't even paste my gdtr dude :P
20:36:12 <elliott> but right, i forgot 0x7c00...
20:36:24 <elliott> now why did it work before
20:36:27 <elliott> anyway, woop, still faults
20:36:45 <olsner> it might have worked before because you were using an old ds set up by your bios, instead of the protected-mode ds
20:38:12 <olsner> (so probably the origin of 0 is actually right, technically, for real-mode)
20:42:21 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
20:45:31 -!- pumpkin has joined.
20:45:33 <elliott> olsner: are you sure "jmp foo:bar" in nasm works properly to set cs? :D
20:46:05 <olsner> have you fixed the offset to rw?
20:46:32 <elliott> do you mean that "bts dword [rw], 3" is wrong? :)
20:46:49 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:46:50 <elliott> i'm not sure what i need to do to fix that actually
20:47:19 <olsner> ... you just changed to a ds with a different offset, right?
20:47:20 <oerjan> ...not _immensely_ good, that :D
20:47:39 <elliott> olsner: ...well right, the offset is 0
20:48:00 <elliott> do the segments overlap properly there...
20:48:03 <elliott> or does rw actually become inaccessible
20:48:45 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:48:46 <olsner> segments overlap what?
20:49:40 <elliott> hmm [rw+0x7c00] doesn't work either
20:49:58 <elliott> 00056386678e[CPU0 ] check_cs(0x0008): not a valid code segment !
20:49:58 <elliott> 00056386678e[CPU0 ] interrupt(): gate descriptor is not valid sys seg (vector=0x0d)
20:49:58 <elliott> 00056386678e[CPU0 ] interrupt(): gate descriptor is not valid sys seg (vector=0x08)
20:49:58 <elliott> 00056386678i[CPU0 ] CPU is in protected mode (active)
20:49:58 <elliott> 00056386678i[CPU0 ] CS.d_b = 16 bit
20:49:58 <elliott> 00056386678i[CPU0 ] SS.d_b = 16 bit
20:50:00 <elliott> 00056386678i[CPU0 ] EFER = 0x00000000
20:50:04 <elliott> 00056386678e[CPU0 ] exception(): 3rd (13) exception with no resolution, shutdown status is 00h, resetting
20:50:34 -!- Mannerisky has left (?).
20:51:37 <olsner> well, hmm, set a breakpoint before the far jump, check what's in the gdt at that time?
20:53:49 <elliott> how do you set... breakpoints... again :DDD
20:54:22 <olsner> elliott: there's a command for it
20:55:53 <oerjan> !underload http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/underload/minskyconv.ul
20:56:38 <oerjan> that's 28 in reverse binary
20:57:08 <olsner> locked in a refridgerated container: "let's sit down on the floor so we freeze to death quicker!" ... stupid tv people
20:57:36 <oerjan> i may have missed a ^ when i simplified it
20:57:41 <elliott> eval (':':p) (x:xs) = eval p (x:x:xs); eval ('^':p) (x:xs) = eval (x++p) xs; eval ('(':p) xs = eval p' (x:xs) where (p',x) = quote p
20:58:01 <olsner> Gregor: just being annoyed at stupid ways to fail to keep warm, being shown on tv
20:58:31 <Gregor> olsner: Well, if the floor is stone or metal, that is in fact a very good way to fail to keep warm, as air is a better insulator.
20:58:45 <Gregor> olsner: I'm however "huh"ing at this being on TV at all :P
20:59:03 <olsner> Gregor: good yes, but stupid since failing to keep warm is not the objective :)
20:59:33 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:59:33 <elliott> Gregor: I think it was actually more likely "Let's sit down on the floor so we rest our legs until we can escape"
20:59:49 <elliott> oerjan: implementation of the turing complete Rockbottomload ():^ :-P
20:59:52 <elliott> (given appropriate quote function)
20:59:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
21:00:04 <Gregor> olsner: Ahhhh, OK, the way you came across made it sound like dying fast was the objective, which is an odd objective but a very achievable one :P
21:00:21 <elliott> Gregor: They just don't have TIME to die slowly!
21:00:42 <Gregor> elliott: It's the only way to get out of the rat race!
21:01:19 <elliott> Gregor: They don't want to spend their lives sitting around waiting for the world to catch up with them and expire!
21:01:25 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:04:07 <oerjan> !underload http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/underload/minskyconv.ul
21:04:23 <oerjan> subtracted one from it
21:04:34 <oerjan> to make it compatible with the original
21:04:59 -!- elliott_ has joined.
21:05:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I hate the way that whenever we're on-topic I always missed the start and am completely out of my depth by the time I notice.
21:05:26 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: this is oerjan, he starts out out of everyone's depth
21:05:45 <elliott_> oerjan: is that a definitive yes?
21:06:01 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
21:06:07 -!- elliott_ has set topic: ():^ is TURING COMPLETE! EVERYBODY PARTY!!!! http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:06:42 -!- elliott has quit (Disconnected by services).
21:06:43 <oerjan> i'll just clean up the haskell a bit before uploading
21:06:52 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott.
21:06:54 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
21:06:54 -!- elliott has joined.
21:07:08 <elliott> just did: /ms send ais523 ():^ is Turing-complete!
21:07:15 <oerjan> olsner: a command subset of underload
21:07:16 <elliott> olsner: underload, with only () and the commands : and ^
21:07:25 <elliott> previously, ():^ was thought to be sub-TC
21:07:33 <elliott> with :!()^ the smallest known subset
21:07:39 <olsner> reading what the hell underload is, is still on my TODO
21:07:48 <elliott> olsner: it's just a simple esolang
21:07:57 <elliott> oerjan has been reducing it over the past N
21:08:10 <elliott> oerjan: sry for saying ():^ it is of course :()^
21:08:18 -!- elliott has set topic: :()^ is TURING COMPLETE! EVERYBODY PARTY!!!! http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:08:25 <elliott> oerjan: ...how can it even be TC...
21:08:29 <olsner> :^() makes for a smiley with a nose
21:08:36 <elliott> it's a quining language without any actual operations :D
21:08:49 <elliott> oerjan: hmm, :()^ would not be TC if ^ ignored the rest of the program, right?
21:08:55 <elliott> i.e. eval ('^':_) (p:xs) = eval p xs
21:09:01 <elliott> I wonder what the minimal subset is assuming that
21:09:30 <oerjan> like pure continuation passing
21:10:20 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: sry for saying ():^ it is of course :()^ <-- for some reason i try to follow the order of the commands on the wiki
21:10:37 <elliott> it's nicer that way, despite being completely illogical
21:14:19 <elliott> olsner: are you SURE setting segments is OK post-gdt, pre-protected??
21:14:27 <elliott> still hacking on it, reducing the bytes to get into protected mode
21:14:36 <elliott> it's some 57 right now, i'm trying to shrink it further
21:15:05 <olsner> elliott: SURE, no :) but you are post-protected at that point, you're just still in a 16-bit code segment
21:15:36 <olsner> and afaik, the segment stuff is decided by protect-enable rather than by the code size of CS
21:15:55 <elliott> and the osdev wiki, at least, tells me that after setting cr0, i MUST MUST MUST jump into a new cs
21:15:58 <elliott> that might be bullshit though
21:16:08 <olsner> you have to at least enable protection before setting the protected-mode segments
21:16:29 <elliott> hmm, fixed that obvious error and it still faults
21:16:30 <olsner> but you can do lots of stuff with protect enabled in a 16-bit code segment
21:16:34 <elliott> are you sure you can set cr0 without jumping after?
21:17:03 <elliott> still 57 bytes and now it doesn't work, nice :)
21:18:32 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
21:18:38 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Changing host).
21:18:38 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
21:18:55 <elliott> 21:08:15 <GregorR> Give me a rational reason for the illegalization of consensual bestiality.
21:19:01 <olsner> I rewrote my code to set data segments after setting PE, but before jumping, works fine (it doesn't modify the gdt though)
21:19:02 <elliott> Gregor: WAS THIS PART OF AN ELABORATE BUILDUP TO FURRY FURRY BONDAGE GIRLS
21:19:31 <elliott> 00042125034i[BIOS ] Booting from 0000:7c00
21:19:31 <elliott> 00042125231e[CPU0 ] check_cs(0x0008): not a valid code segment !
21:19:32 <elliott> 00042125231e[CPU0 ] interrupt(): gate descriptor is not valid sys seg (vector=0x0d)
21:19:32 <elliott> 00042125231e[CPU0 ] interrupt(): gate descriptor is not valid sys seg (vector=0x08)
21:19:32 <elliott> 00042125231i[CPU0 ] CPU is in protected mode (active)
21:19:57 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/underload/ULDisclaim2.hs
21:20:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Client Quit).
21:22:25 <elliott> oerjan: now put it on the wiki and give ais a heart attack :D
21:22:31 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:22:53 <elliott> [rw+0x7c00] to [rw] fixed it
21:22:57 <elliott> because segments make no sense!!
21:23:28 <Gregor> elliott: I was just pointing out how things that we find implicitly offensive are often very difficult to rationalize as offensive *shrugs*
21:23:46 <elliott> Gregor: I don't disagree, but bro, gimme a chance to make a BF Joust reference.
21:24:35 <elliott> 21:14:58 <wildhalcyon> Now, before I start picturing goats mounting gregor, I must go to bed
21:24:54 <elliott> (In my version, the goats are wearing hats; you're welcome)
21:25:07 <elliott> 21:15:22 <GregorR> Just thought I'd put that question out there, since I was asked it today XD
21:25:09 <elliott> 21:15:33 <wildhalcyon> lol... by a goat?
21:25:10 <elliott> 21:15:49 <GregorR> And one /hot/ goat if I might add.
21:25:10 <elliott> 21:15:59 <wildhalcyon> no doubt. Most goats are.
21:25:44 <elliott> 21:19:40 <GregorR> (In Romania, bestial porn is legal and sold commonly)
21:25:45 <elliott> 21:19:52 <GregorR> Err, not romania.
21:25:45 <elliott> 21:19:54 <GregorR> Hungary.
21:25:51 <elliott> Gregor: YOU KNOW WAY TOO MUCH FOR THIS NOT TO BE SUSPICIOUS
21:25:59 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:26:01 <elliott> 21:20:03 <Robdgreat> You know a lot about this, eh
21:26:01 <elliott> 21:20:09 <Arrogant> Wikipedia
21:26:01 <elliott> 21:20:09 <GregorR> Wikipedia :)
21:26:13 -!- dbc has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:27:08 * oerjan isn't sure which way is up
21:27:37 <Gregor> It's actually vertical
21:27:41 <oerjan> is that a blind guy with a retarded tongue or a guy with a cap who refuses to speak
21:27:43 <Gregor> The guy got punched in the face.
21:28:22 <elliott> oerjan: Oh wow, the blind-guy-with-retarded-tongue interpretation looks hilarious X-D
21:29:25 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:29:36 <elliott> bts word rather than dword in real mode
21:30:19 <elliott> 10 00000006 0F0116[2A00] lgdt [gdtr]
21:30:23 <elliott> are you sure "lgdt eax" isn't valid? :D
21:31:11 <elliott> actually it's only 53 bytes, the 3 extra were "x: hlt; jmp x"
21:33:03 <olsner> hmm, I think it probably takes any memory operand
21:33:41 <elliott> well [eax] there is only 52 bytes
21:33:59 <olsner> but why would it be shorter to put the offset in ax before lgdt [ax]?
21:34:20 <elliott> olsner: probably wouldn't be, also, lgdt [ax] isn't valid, it seems to want an operand size qualifier
21:34:23 <elliott> but i can't figure out which one it wants :)
21:34:38 <olsner> I wonder what nasm calls it
21:34:55 <olsner> it's a 48-bit memory operand :)
21:35:42 <elliott> 15:16:35 * {^Raven^} has to go assist an elevted member with stuff
21:35:43 <elliott> 15:16:55 <GregorR> Is that code for gay sex?
21:35:43 <elliott> 15:17:08 <GregorR> It /sounds/ like code for gay sex :P
21:35:52 <elliott> olsner: well a dword is 32
21:36:00 -!- TLUL has joined.
21:36:06 <elliott> dword * 2 = qword, let's say
21:36:22 <elliott> so what's between double and quadruple...
21:36:53 <elliott> but it doesn't give any invalid keyword massive
21:36:58 <elliott> like it does with "tworsdjgdfg"
21:37:07 <elliott> i am as genius as the nasm creator!
21:37:27 <elliott> Almost any x87 floating-point instruction that references memory must use one of the prefixes DWORD, QWORD or TWORD to indicate what size of memory operand it refers to.
21:37:54 <olsner> I guess it's an octaword
21:38:21 <elliott> else { //Instruction == LGDT
21:38:21 <elliott> GDT.Limit = Source[0..15];
21:38:21 <elliott> GDTR.Base = Source[16..47] & 0xFFFFFF;
21:38:22 <elliott> else { //OperandSize == 32
21:38:23 <elliott> GDTR.Limit = Source[0..15];
21:38:26 <elliott> GDTR.Base = Source[16..47];
21:38:36 <fizzie> olsner: No, that's OWORD, I think. My guess would be a ten-word 80-bit x87 float.
21:38:37 <elliott> (from http://siyobik.info/index.php?module=x86&id=156)
21:38:45 <elliott> "If operand-size attribute is 32 bits, a 16-bit limit (lower 2 bytes of the 6-byte data operand) and a 32-bit base address (upper 4 bytes of the data operand) are loaded into the register. If the operand-size attribute is 16 bits, a 16-bit limit (lower 2 bytes) and a 24-bit base address (third, fourth, and fifth byte) are loaded. Here, the high-order byte of the operand is not used and the high-order byte of the base address in the GDTR or IDTR is
21:39:15 <fizzie> "BYTE, WORD, DWORD, QWORD, TWORD, OWORD or YWORD" seems to be the nasm size-specifier list.
21:39:31 <elliott> Gregor: PUT HANGMAN BACK IN EGOBOT.
21:39:38 <elliott> fizzie: but, but, what about 3 words?!
21:40:23 <fizzie> I don't think they have a word for that; anyway, the lgdt mem16:32 is pretty weird.
21:40:58 <olsner> hmm, ax can't be used as an offset in real mode, obviously
21:41:32 -!- cheater- has joined.
21:41:39 <olsner> elliott: do you, by any chance, get "invalid effective address" when trying to lgdt [ax]?
21:42:36 <olsner> lgdt doesn't take an operand size since it's, you know, special
21:42:56 <elliott> i get an operand size mismatch
21:43:10 <elliott> invalid effective addesresress
21:43:26 <elliott> so wait, what's this smaller operand size for lgdt, does it let me save bytes :D
21:44:19 <olsner> you have to use one of the registers that are valid offsets (bx, bp, si, di), at least until you reach protected mode
21:44:22 <fizzie> As far as I can decode from the manual, it will have the 48-bit memory address always; the "operand-size" just refers to 16/32-bit mode. (You can see how it talks about 6 bytes in both the 32-bit and 16-bit mode descriptions.)
21:44:41 <elliott> fizzie: you know that fast befunge-93 impl you have?
21:44:50 <fizzie> "In legacy and compatibility mode, the pseudo-descriptor is 6 bytes; in 64-bit mode, it is 10 bytes."
21:45:02 <olsner> if the sixth byte is ignored in 16-bit mode, that means you can use it
21:45:13 <elliott> fizzie: You should store the fungespace array such that up, down, left, and right of any cell is a constant away from it. (Or at least an approximation of that.)
21:45:26 <elliott> Maybe one of them space-filling fractals might be useful? I hear those do that kind of thing quite well.
21:45:36 <elliott> olsner: nice, how do i use the 16-bit mode :P
21:45:43 <olsner> elliott: you're in it, I think
21:45:47 <elliott> <olsner> you have to use one of the registers that are valid offsets (bx, bp, si, di), at least until you reach protected mode
21:46:04 <olsner> but that should be *reach the 32-bit code segment
21:46:31 <fizzie> Well, yes, the offset is always constant even with a regular 2D grid; I mean, it's just +1/-1/+width/-width.
21:46:32 <olsner> yeah, don't use bp with a 0 offset, it requires an offset byte anyway
21:47:01 <elliott> fizzie: Err, right. I meant, + small constant.
21:47:08 <elliott> fizzie: Because, you know, locality, and.
21:47:32 * oerjan realizes that his last algorithm can remove ! from _any_ subset containing :()^
21:48:02 <oerjan> because every single instruction is cancelable
21:48:11 <oerjan> *a version of his last algorithm
21:48:33 <elliott> oerjan: now prove )^ complete
21:50:04 <oerjan> mind you the problem of printing remains (only cancelable strings can be used freely for printing)
21:50:57 <Phantom_Hoover> IN WHICH A REDDITOR FAILS AT UNDERSTANDING USER INTERFACES
21:51:07 <elliott> oerjan used to come in as oerjanj?
21:51:21 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/gccM1.jpg <-- lmao
21:51:35 <olsner> in which elliott links to the same picture again
21:51:40 <elliott> someone space out some large windows icons to look exactly like that and set a wooden background :)
21:51:44 <elliott> olsner: BETTER THAN QUOTING HIS ENTRIE LINE
21:52:10 <elliott> where is the stack by default in x86?
21:52:26 <fizzie> olsner: Also, it just says "if the operand size is 16 bits, the high-order byte -- is not used"; it doesn't say you need to be in 16-bit mode. So I think you could just stick a 66h prefix in front of the LGDT (in NASM, "O16 LGDT ...") to use that mode. But then you would be paying the single-byte prefix in order to use the shorter 5-byte descriptor. (So I guess being in proper 16-bit mode is the only way you can actually benefit from that.)
21:52:53 <olsner> elliott: I think you left it pointing some random place
21:53:06 <elliott> except with protected mode on
21:53:09 <olsner> it's where you point the esp register in the ss segment
21:53:21 <elliott> olsner: right. so i should set that up later
21:53:25 <olsner> you're in protected mode in a 16-bit code segment :)
21:53:45 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan used to come in as oerjanj? <-- huh? i cannot recall that
21:53:46 <elliott> olsner: (I'll have two stacks, data and return, and just swap esp to be those)
21:53:55 <olsner> elliott: if you want to use the stack :) but you probably do, because stack operations are short and sweet
21:53:58 <elliott> /home/elliott/esotericlogs/06.09.27:08:35:31 --- join: oerjanj (n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no) joined #esoteric
21:53:58 <elliott> /home/elliott/esotericlogs/06.09.27:10:06:35 <oerjanj> hello
21:54:07 <elliott> <oerjanj> hi razor-x, did jix ever get hold of you? from reading the logs you seemed to behave like Superman and Clark Kent...
21:54:20 <olsner> iirc all the push/pop of GPR:s are single byte, for example
21:54:30 * oerjan realizes his previous statement was wrong, a and * cannot be implemented without at least each other
21:54:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: do not look in to that man, he is pure horrible
21:54:51 <elliott> i would pulverise his skull given the chance
21:55:12 <elliott> olsner: right, although i dunno how long
21:55:27 <elliott> compared to the "manual" way
21:55:30 <elliott> (that would be for the return stack)
21:55:56 <fizzie> olsner: You can use either esi or edi for an almost-stack, by setting the DF properly and then using either LODSD or STOSD to do pop/push. (And then explicit mov/add/sub/lea/whatever for the other, missing operation.)
21:56:09 <oerjan> elliott: hm maybe it was before i discovered i could get the nick released
21:56:31 <elliott> fizzie: what more operations on a stack are there than push and pop :)
21:56:46 <elliott> <fizzie> olsner: Also, it just says "if the operand size is 16 bits, the high-order byte -- is not used"; it doesn't say you need to be in 16-bit mode. So I think you could just stick a 66h prefix in front of the LGDT (in NASM, "O16 LGDT ...") to use that mode. But then you would be paying the single-byte prefix in order to use the shorter 5-byte descriptor. (So I guess being in proper 16-bit mode is the only way you can actually benefit from that.
21:58:16 <olsner> I guess you want to use the "normal" stack for control flow since there are call/ret instructions using it, and the fake stack for data?
21:58:26 <fizzie> elliott: No, I mean, you can get either pop (by using esi and lodsd) or push (by using edi and stosd), not both at the same time, since lodsd/stosd use different registers (and only do post-increment/decrement anyway; not pre-).
21:58:41 <elliott> olsner: forth doesn't use call/ret
21:58:46 <elliott> threaded code, remember? :)
21:58:53 <olsner> or switch and use native stack for everything, but switching may be costly
21:59:02 <elliott> which is just "pop from return stack, goto" admittedly a lot like ret
21:59:10 <fizzie> On ARM you could just use any general-purpose register for stackery. (Except that I think in THUMB code quite many of the post-increment/pre-decrement ones are hardcoded to only use the one that's the "usual" stack pointer.)
21:59:13 <olsner> yes, so NEXT might be RET, if the stack is set up to support that
21:59:26 <elliott> i could start every primitive with
21:59:38 <elliott> that sounds like a good idea. anyway.
22:00:11 <olsner> the byte that's not used: the last one
22:00:51 <elliott> so if i'm in "bits 16", nasm will automatically be calling that, right?
22:01:41 <olsner> since you're in a code segment with a 16-bit operand size :) bits 16 is just a hint for nasm to generate code that matches the mode you're in
22:02:09 <elliott> so... 8 bytes gdt, 6 bytes gdtr, so 14 bytes total for gdt stuff... and the rest is code
22:02:16 <elliott> so 14 bytes gdt, 40 bytes code
22:02:22 <fizzie> elliott: "xchg eax, esp" is a byte shorter than "xchg [any other register], esp"... but of course eax is often required for many things -- and included in other shorter opcodes -- so you might not want to keep your data stack.
22:02:30 <elliott> it's actually 51 without the inf loop :D
22:02:38 <elliott> so 37 bytes of code to get into protected mode
22:02:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:02:51 <elliott> fizzie: Yeah, eax seems to useful to waste like that, since I'd be clobbering it all the time.
22:04:03 <elliott> can i load cr0 into al directly instead of wasting all the time putting it in eax? ;D
22:04:23 <olsner> you could maybe use (e.g.) ebp for the data stack, and just address and decrement it instead of pushing and popping
22:04:37 <elliott> <fizzie> olsner: You can use either esi or edi for an almost-stack, by setting the DF properly and then using either LODSD or STOSD to do pop/push. (And then explicit mov/add/sub/lea/whatever for the other, missing operation.)
22:04:39 <elliott> that's what the man said :P
22:04:51 <olsner> or is it very common to push and pop single items?
22:05:17 <elliott> olsner: well every instruction pops something or pushes something
22:05:29 <fizzie> If it's a forth and you don't do any tricks, yes, quite many primitives do just single items.
22:06:17 <elliott> indeed, chuck moore hates 90% of words that pop more than one thing i bet :)
22:06:25 <elliott> keyboard input without interrupts
22:06:29 <fizzie> Of course with zero-stack-effect primitives, you don't need to alter the stack pointer, you can just [blah] it if it points to the topmost real existing element.
22:06:52 <olsner> you could save, like, 4 bytes on not switching stacks - but of course lose some from not having the stack primitives accessible
22:06:57 <elliott> IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE I ASK YOU
22:07:05 <fizzie> If you poll often enough, sure, I don't see why not.
22:07:15 <olsner> elliott: bah, stop asking and prove it possible
22:07:20 <elliott> that's what i'm doing olsner :P
22:07:33 <olsner> also, I have no idea how to talk to keyboards without a BIOS
22:07:37 <elliott> fizzie: The interpreter loop as I'm currently planning it is just going to be "Read word from keyboard terminated by space, feed it to the interpreter, repeat".
22:07:47 <elliott> So it's pretty much completely hung on keyboard input when it's not interpreting.
22:09:25 <fizzie> olsner: If I recall correctly, the keyboard controller has a single-byte "buffer" register which you can read whenever; and you can poll the status register for the "is there input in the buffer" bit.
22:10:01 <fizzie> http://www.computer-engineering.org/ps2keyboard/ and especially the "kbRead" code snippet seems reasonable to me.
22:11:14 <olsner> oh, that looks very reasonable
22:12:05 <fizzie> You even get key-repeat for free, since it's done by the keyboard.
22:13:49 <pikhq_> And the key-repeat rate is set by your polling rate. Awesome.
22:14:24 <fizzie> It's set by the "Set Typematic Rate/Delay" command.
22:21:01 -!- caramel1991 has joined.
22:21:35 <fizzie> In that sense it's a bit limited; I remember the Sun/Sparc keyboard was a lot more flexible w.r.t. repeat delays and rates. (The x86 one has just two bits for the delay -- 0.25s, 0.5s, 0.75s, 1s -- and five for the rate -- 2 ... 30 chars/second.)
22:22:09 <olsner> configurable key repeat is over-rated
22:22:15 -!- caramel1991 has left (?).
22:22:57 <pikhq_> Turing-complete keyboards are over-rated.
22:28:39 <fizzie> pikhq_: Quote from a computer retailer, about a gamer-oriented keyboard: "Integrated turbocore and 2MB built-in memory".
22:28:49 <fizzie> (They do not explain what a "turbocore" does in a keyboard.)
22:29:28 <olsner> accelerate your typing, obviously
22:29:30 <fizzie> (Also: keyboards with gold-plated connectors.)
22:31:04 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:32:33 <cheater-> what about gold-plated clackers
22:32:42 <olsner> elliott: so, you running any forth code yet?
22:32:52 <cheater-> i mean you can only expect your model m to last so long
22:33:03 <cheater-> gold makes terminals go longer i guess
22:33:15 <elliott> busy showing gregor around autismland
22:33:23 <cheater-> but i guess due to mechanical properties silver is better
22:35:23 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:36:41 -!- pumpkin has joined.
22:37:36 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:44:06 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:46:42 -!- dbc has joined.
22:49:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:49:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
22:51:19 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
22:53:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:53:26 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
22:56:51 -!- augur has joined.
23:00:38 <pikhq_> 16:08 < elliott> busy showing gregor around autismland
23:01:09 <pikhq_> cheater-: Well, gold *plating* connectors at least has a vaguely legitimate use.
23:01:30 <pikhq_> Though I doubt corrosion is a big problem on what's a few-bits-per-second bus.
23:06:39 <cheater-> even parts which are 20 years old will still work.
23:06:59 <cheater-> i think it's up to 200 hz with overdrive by the way
23:07:14 <cheater-> remember setting my ps2 clock to crazy rates like that in windows 98
23:20:16 -!- copumpkin has joined.
23:20:49 <elliott> fizzie: olsner: Hey, will "hlt" still do the right thing if interrupts are off?
23:20:55 <elliott> Like, stop the keyboard-polling loop be a CPU-eater?
23:23:43 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:25:44 <fizzie> Yes, in the sense that it will halt and not wake up again. (Well, except if you manage to get a non-maskable interrupt -- or RESET or INIT -- from your hardware.)
23:25:54 <fizzie> No, in the sense that it'd be very useful.
23:26:17 <fizzie> "Before executing a HLT instruction, hardware interrupts should be enabled. If rFLAGS.IF = 0, the system will remain in a HALT state until an NMI, SMI, RESET, or INIT occurs."
23:26:33 <fizzie> I also think I'll sleeb.
23:26:50 <elliott> Anyhow, that kbRead thing returns scancodes, right?
23:27:01 <elliott> fizzie: Can you answer in -minecraft though? :P
23:27:22 -!- Behold has joined.
23:28:09 <elliott> Erm, what's a good thing to crash the processor again?
23:28:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:32:51 <elliott> olsner: Yay, turns out all the things I thought were successful workingnesses... were just me forgetting to readd the signature
23:32:55 <elliott> CODE IS SO BUGGY WHOOP WHOOP
23:33:16 <pikhq_> lidt 0; int PICK_A_NUMBER
23:33:19 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
23:33:39 <elliott> pikhq_: You mean for using int for keyboard stuff?
23:33:48 <elliott> Yah, but then I'd have to have interrupt handlers, and I'm trying to stuff this into *512 bytes*.
23:33:49 <pikhq_> elliott: No, for crashing the processor.
23:34:02 <pikhq_> elliott: Sets the interrupt descriptor table to 0 and then tries to do an interrupt.
23:34:07 <pikhq_> Thereby causing a triple fault.
23:34:17 <elliott> 00056166961e[CPU0 ] fetch_raw_descriptor: GDT: index (f) 1 > limit (e)
23:34:17 <elliott> 00056166961e[CPU0 ] interrupt(): gate descriptor is not valid sys seg (vector=0x0d)
23:34:17 <elliott> 00056166961e[CPU0 ] interrupt(): gate descriptor is not valid sys seg (vector=0x08)
23:34:17 <elliott> 00056166961i[CPU0 ] CPU is in protected mode (active)
23:34:55 <pikhq_> Oh, and on qemu you'll get a core dump.
23:39:53 <elliott> pikhq_: <elliott> 00056166961e[CPU0 ] fetch_raw_descriptor: GDT: index (f) 1 > limit (e)
23:39:57 <elliott> what does it even meaaaaaaaaan
23:40:06 <elliott> I guess I'm trying to use some totally-invalid segment
23:47:16 -!- Mannerisky has joined.
23:52:24 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:53:55 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
23:56:42 -!- copumpkin has joined.
23:57:26 <elliott> olsner: your fancy plan doesn't work at all
23:57:51 <elliott> /after/ loading the gdt and protecting mysel
23:58:00 <elliott> olsner: I bet you have to be in a 32-bit code segment to set segments.
00:02:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:06:29 <elliott> Doing it post-protected doesn't work either.
00:16:12 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:19:07 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:22:38 <elliott> ok, lgdt _isn't_ ignoring the last byte :-/
00:27:13 <elliott> pikhq_: btw, it's actually *lidt [0]
00:27:32 <elliott> pikhq_: I bet you use AT&T syntax too.
00:28:59 <elliott> 00028083494e[CPU0 ] write_virtual_checks(): no write access to seg
00:29:00 <elliott> 00028083494e[CPU0 ] interrupt(): gate descriptor is not valid sys seg (vector=0x0d)
00:29:00 <elliott> 00028083494e[CPU0 ] interrupt(): gate descriptor is not valid sys seg (vector=0x08)
00:29:06 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:29:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
00:30:16 <elliott> olsner: I'm beginning to think that this change-the-descriptor idea is really stupid.
00:32:11 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:36:56 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:40:13 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
00:42:22 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
01:00:19 -!- Behold has joined.
01:04:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
01:05:33 <elliott> [[When the 8042 recieves a valid scan code from the keyboard, it is converted to its set 1 equivalent. The converted scan code is then placed in the input buffer, the IBF (Input Buffer Full) flag is set, and IRQ 1 is asserted. Furthermore, when any byte is received from the keyboard, the 8042 inhibits further reception (by pulling the "Clock" line low), so no other scan codes will be received until the input buffer is emptied.
01:05:34 <elliott> If enabled, IRQ 1 will activate the keyboard driver, pointed to by interrupt vector 0x09. The driver reads the scan code from port 0x60, which causes the 8042 to de-assert IRQ 1 and reset the IBF flag. The scan code is then processed by the driver, which responds to special key combinations and updates an area of the system RAM reserved for keyboard input.
01:05:35 <elliott> If you don't want to patch into interrupt 0x09, you may poll the keyboard controller for input. This is accomplished by disabling the 8042's IBF Interrupt and polling the IBF flag. This flag is set (1) when data is available in the input buffer, and is cleared (0) when data is read from the input buffer. Reading the input buffer is accomplished by reading from port 0x60, and the IBF flag is at port 0x64, bit 1. The following assembly code illus
01:05:42 <elliott> hmm, does that imply that i have to specifically tell the keyboard to not do the interrupt method first?
01:08:47 <elliott> 00014041760i[CPU0 ] WARNING: HLT instruction with IF=0!
01:09:13 -!- cal153 has joined.
01:17:50 <elliott> hmm, maybe the keyboard thing causes a hlt in bochs
01:47:29 -!- augur has joined.
01:50:35 <Ilari> Nope, something calls HLT. And when it is called, interrupts are better to be enabled.
01:51:29 <elliott> Ilari: Nope, I did not execute hlt.
01:53:02 <elliott> So I bet the keyboard controller does it ... or something ... it's when I talk to the keyboard, anyway.
01:53:03 <Ilari> HLT somewhere in BIOS?
01:53:10 <elliott> Ilari: Nope, no BIOS calls at this point either.
01:53:17 <elliott> Lemme find the exact instruction where it happens.
01:53:26 <Ilari> Jump to hyperspace?
01:53:55 <Sgeo> Darnit, catch fire, elliott!
01:54:01 <elliott> I actually do hlt later on X-D
01:54:08 <elliott> Okay, so it's getting input from the keyboard even though there are none.
01:54:39 <Ilari> The code jumps somewhere far far away that isn't even code.
01:55:03 <elliott> Mm, seems not. Wait what ...
01:55:19 <Ilari> If there is paging enabled, usually to non-paged area (crashing instantly). But in real mode nearly every address is executable.
01:55:23 <elliott> In bytes, [0xB8000] = first char, [0xB8001] = first attribute, right?
01:55:33 <elliott> Ilari: In fact I have flat protected mode without paging.
01:56:25 <elliott> Heh, okay, so characters are actually coming through.
01:56:42 <Ilari> I think the proper way to use HLT is to first to CLI, check conditions, then STI followed _immediately_ by HLT.
01:57:44 <Ilari> Because IIRC, immediately after STI is executed, interrupts are not checked (and that would be actually important here).
01:58:40 <Ilari> Because if you check interrupts immediately before HLT, you have a race condition.
01:58:51 <elliott> Ilari: When I did that (sti hlt; I disabled interrupts way before) it actually rebooted, so I'm assuming that an interrupt came in somehow.
01:59:03 <elliott> Anyway, polling the keyboard controller itself seems like it might work.
01:59:15 <elliott> Ilari: Of course the _real_ problem will be fitting this entire Forth system into 512 bytes!
02:00:03 <elliott> (basically, boot up -> flat protected mode -> Forth compiler with very few built-in words -> type in a word, press space, it executes, then "ok" prints and you're on to the next line)
02:00:10 <elliott> In 510 bytes (2 for signature)...
02:00:47 <Ilari> There are three ways to initiate a reboot: 1) Jump to BIOS init vector in real mode (FFFF:0000). 2) Toggle the reset line (connected to keyboard controller, what else)? or 3) Triplefault the CPU.
02:01:25 <Sgeo> Is Ilari ignoring me too, or just not responding to me?
02:01:53 <Ilari> Sgeo: The only ignore I have set in this client is global CTCP ignore.
02:03:04 <elliott> Also, I believe the IBM PC design philosophy goes something like "How should we-" "Attach it to the keyboard controller."
02:03:08 <elliott> "But-" "KEYBOARD CONTROLLER!"
02:03:26 <Ilari> A20 line is also controlled by the keyboard controller.
02:03:50 <Ilari> I think CTCP is a special form of /msg.
02:03:58 <elliott> Ilari: So you cannot see /mes?
02:04:31 <Ilari> Well, whatever CTCP block in this client actually blocks (it doesn't block /me)
02:04:41 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:04:47 <elliott> Ilari: Blocks VERSION requests, at least :P
02:05:07 <elliott> But but but HOW WILL WE EVER KNOW WHAT CLIENT YOU USE ;_;
02:06:40 <elliott> The secret code of Gregor's race reached its fifth revision today.
02:06:46 <Ilari> I configured that when some jokers did CTCP spamming to some channels (that also got chanmode +C implemented).
02:06:57 <elliott> "Gah. They totally ignored my bug report."
02:06:59 <elliott> [[It's the mysterious U+1F4A0 DIAMOND SHAPE WITH A DOT INSIDE code point, which is even more mysteriously listed as meaning "cute".
02:06:59 <elliott> It turns out it is inherited from a proprietary Japanese text messaging encoding, where it is indeed listed as meaning "cute", and represented by a tiny pixelated image, which if you look quickly at it might look a little like a "diamond shape with a dot inside".
02:06:59 <elliott> However, it is actually a crude picture of a flower.]]
02:07:44 <elliott> Gregor: FINALLY WE HAVE "PILE OF POO".
02:09:00 <Gregor> Why can't I change my skin ...
02:09:53 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, I have a skin, skins just don't load properly right now.
02:11:02 <elliott> Gregor: ... also, wrong channel :P
02:11:39 <Sgeo> To the diamond with dot inside thing?
02:26:36 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*).
02:31:23 -!- wareya has joined.
02:35:01 -!- Alyk_Meigatzroyd has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
02:50:14 <elliott> but i forgot to ask him what i was going to
02:50:15 <Gregor> DAMN YOU SOMALIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
02:52:51 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
02:54:30 <pikhq_> elliott: Actually, IBM PC design philosophy is based around "We want this functionality. *God dammit*, the keyboard controller is the only place to add it."
02:54:40 <elliott> pikhq_: I think they secretly liked it.
02:55:40 <pikhq_> elliott: For instance, the A20 line on the keyboard controller is there because there was no way to implement the address wrapping you'd expect on an IBM PC on a 386, except to turn off the A20 line...
02:56:25 <pikhq_> And the only way to be able to *control* that without adding an expensive microcontroller was to use the only microcontroller on the motherboard which wasn't fully used: the keyboard controller.
02:58:13 <Ilari> Actually, A20 appeared on the 286.
03:01:04 <Ilari> (286 had 24 address lines)
03:02:56 <Gregor> elliott: DAMN YOU SOMALIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
03:10:42 <pikhq_> Still. *That* brokenness is working around Intel's failed backwards-compatibility.
03:11:15 <elliott> Forth in 510 bytes may not be possible without significantly more juju than I possess.
03:11:59 <Ilari> So it would need to load more sectors from floppy? :-(
03:12:46 <elliott> Ilari: That may be so. I haven't started the actual Forth part yet.
03:12:58 <elliott> I'm just thinking that all my protected mode stuff is already 51 bytes or so.
03:13:06 <elliott> Keyboard handling will probably take about 30 at least.
03:13:21 <elliott> Then I have to fit the compiler in, and enough basic words to be able to actually do anything...
03:13:30 <elliott> Not that I'm going to give up.
03:13:31 <pikhq_> How small could you make a compressor? >:D
03:13:37 <elliott> pikhq_: Definitely not small enough.
03:13:39 <pikhq_> Well, decompressor, really.
03:13:47 <elliott> It's not like x86 machine code would RLE well.
03:14:05 <pikhq_> Yeah, so it'd have to be a vaguely intelligent compression scheme.
03:15:03 <pikhq_> You have to admit that it'd be pretty awesome to have a self-extracting boot sector.
03:15:12 <Ilari> Heh. Boot code that would read the entiere floppy into extended memory, switch to pmode and then jump to the image. :-/
03:16:05 <pikhq_> elliott: Hmm. Pre-Forth threaded code?
03:16:19 <elliott> pikhq_: That's... assembly that calls a lot of functions.
03:16:49 <elliott> pikhq_: I'm reading the free sample chapter of RTK 1 right now, btw.
03:16:55 <elliott> And wondering whether to learn the kana first or after.
03:17:21 <pikhq_> Only really a gain if you use each sequence of threaded code more than once, though.
03:18:03 <elliott> pikhq_: "1 is 1 on its side. 2 is two 1s. 3 is three 1s. 4 is "mouth" plus "human legs"."
03:18:25 <pikhq_> elliott: Mnemonics ≠ etymology.
03:18:35 <pikhq_> Also, all this is from China.
03:18:47 <elliott> pikhq_: I don't wanna learn Japanese and then see 4 and think "MOUTHS AND LEGS".
03:18:58 <pikhq_> elliott: You won't. Not for long, anyways.
03:19:02 <elliott> What's "hello", "mosquito" + "hell" + "burn" + "unicorn" + "concrete" + "smiles"?
03:19:21 <elliott> Haha it even looks like a mouth devouring a pair of innocent legs. This is going to be bad for my sanity.
03:19:30 <elliott> pikhq_: It's assuming I know any kanji at all; so not fair.
03:20:39 <pikhq_> Well, if you knew any, they'd be, at a minimum, 一二三四五六七八九十.
03:21:01 <elliott> "6: The primitives here are top hat and animal legs."
03:21:06 <elliott> HOW DO YOU INVENT TOP HATS BEFORE THE NUMBER "SIX"
03:21:18 <pikhq_> elliott: THAT'S NOT THE BLOODY ETYMOLOGY.
03:21:35 <elliott> "And, yes, this part should be six inches high" "Sorry, what?" "Six in-" "'S...ix'?"
03:21:52 <pikhq_> elliott: Also, the names for the kanjoids are largely Heisig inventions.
03:21:54 <elliott> "We can make top hats five inches high, and seven inches high, what is this 'six'?!?!?!?!?!"
03:22:43 <pikhq_> ("mouth" and "legs" aren't, though considering 四 as composed of them is.)
03:22:53 <elliott> I like how 7 and spoon would be confusable with bad handwriting.
03:24:05 <elliott> For the Japanese, "8" is "infinity".
03:24:11 <elliott> ME NO SO GOOD WITH NUMBERS
03:24:23 <pikhq_> Not really; they tend to use Arabic numerals more than Chinese.
03:24:45 <pikhq_> Also, 見 and 貝 are a much better example of "confusable with bad handwriting".
03:25:23 <elliott> "As a primitive, we shall use this kanji to mean baseball team or simply baseball. The meaning, of course, is derived from the nine players who make up a team."
03:25:52 <pikhq_> elliott: Actually, baseball is more popular in Japan than in America.
03:28:14 <elliott> So wait, is that what it actually means, or just the mnemonic?
03:28:18 <elliott> If the latter, I prefer "waffle" :P
03:28:23 <pikhq_> It actually means rice field.
03:29:12 <elliott> pikhq_: But I want it to mean waffle instead.
03:29:19 <elliott> Also, how often does THAT get used alone nowadays :P
03:29:38 <pikhq_> elliott: Extensively in names.
03:30:08 <elliott> Agh, I'm really worried that learning a graveyard tombstone image for "old" will end up turning my mind into a slurry of ridiculous associated visions when processing words :P
03:30:28 <elliott> "five mouths: 2 nostrils, 2 ears, and 1 mouth."
03:30:30 <elliott> Great job at counting, bro.
03:30:36 <elliott> (Don't correct me, I'm just mocking.)
03:30:55 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: Because it sounds like fun. (Whatcha got against Japanese?)
03:31:12 <Zwaarddijk> why learn japanese when the world has fantastic things like nahuatl to offer
03:31:21 <elliott> And because learning another completely different writing system and a language sounds like more fun than just learning another language with a similar alphabet.
03:31:37 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: Because I'm a mainstream loser.
03:31:44 <Zwaarddijk> (I've tried learning nahuatl. I can't parse it. the grammar entirely evades me. it's like you take the model of the world that Finnish has and invert it)
03:32:05 <pikhq_> Oh, it's that strongly synthetic?
03:32:20 <elliott> pikhq_: Wait... how is "I" made up of four mouths?
03:32:28 <elliott> I see one mouth, and then a weird shape on top that maybe has most of one mouth in it.
03:32:45 <pikhq_> elliott: Which number?
03:32:48 <Zwaarddijk> the inflections have roles that are like the complete opposite of what Finnish does
03:32:55 <elliott> pikhq_: It's not an actual numeral if that is what you mean
03:33:18 <pikhq_> elliott: Uh, "five mouths". It has 五 and 口.
03:33:32 <elliott> pikhq_: OH, literally "five" + mouths.
03:33:39 <elliott> Not "five compositions of the 'mouth' character".
03:34:08 <pikhq_> Though 品 is three compositions thereof. :P
03:34:11 <elliott> At least I'm decomposing things that an hour ago would have looked atomic to me, even if they are simple...
03:34:21 <elliott> pikhq_: What does that mean, "gargantuan Cthulhuesque horror from hell"?
03:34:32 <pikhq_> It's on the next page.
03:35:16 <elliott> Great... "month" can mean "flesh". Apparently Heisig won't tell me why until a later chapter.
03:35:32 <elliott> pikhq_: SO KANA FIRST OR KANA LATER
03:35:48 <Gregor> SOMALIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
03:36:12 <pikhq_> It'll be absurdly easy later, and somewhat annoying now.
03:36:41 <pikhq_> The kana, in a very technical sense, are kanji, you see.
03:37:02 <elliott> pikhq_: How many Bible references do I have to plan for, I realise this guy is a philosopher of religion but that's two in a row :P
03:37:14 <pikhq_> elliott: Uh, I think there's maybe 3 or 4 more?
03:37:31 <elliott> "Bright = sun + moon" is more clearly explained as "The sun and the moon are the two bright things in the sky." than that reference to me :-P
03:37:48 <pikhq_> Feel free to ignore his suggestions if you have something better.
03:38:22 <elliott> "And if you've ever held a diamond up to the light," NOT ALL OF US ARE AS RICH AS YOU, HEISIGGY
03:38:41 <elliott> tl;dr three suns would sparkle a lot because your eyes would burn.
03:41:53 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:41:55 <elliott> pikhq_: Does "frame N" refer to the kanji-box marked N?
03:42:25 <pikhq_> elliott: Uh, it should, yeah.
03:42:51 <pikhq_> I'm... Not sure on the reasoning for that either.
03:43:14 <pikhq_> It has nothing to do with the phrase "the land of the rising sun", BTW.
03:43:32 <elliott> Ehh, Heisig says it's that kanji which is the nickname for the flag.
03:43:38 <elliott> Which would imply to me that it _does_ have something to do with that phrase.
03:44:25 <elliott> "This character is a sort of nickname for the Japanese flag with its well-known emblem of the rising run."
03:45:12 <elliott> "Nightbreak" is an elegant character.
03:45:29 <elliott> I also kind of worry that I'll end up decomposing kanji into the _English_ mnemonics, which would impede my fluency... but I suppose I will grow out of that, so to speak.
03:46:04 <elliott> Gall bladder = part of body + nightbreak. Not even gonna try and understand that one.
03:46:11 <pikhq_> Oh, sure enough, 旭 is the first bit in 旭旗, which refers to the 日の丸.
03:46:33 <elliott> pikhq_: "Sun rising land", by any chance?
03:46:39 <elliott> At least, I recognise sun.
03:46:49 <elliott> And that last one looks like... that one... 9? Plus an extra line.
03:46:53 <pikhq_> elliott: No, that's "the circle of the sun".
03:47:01 <pikhq_> Which is the usual name for the Japanese flag.
03:47:09 <elliott> What is the last character, and was my guess of 9 + an extra line (on the curvy swoop) correct?
03:47:17 <elliott> (I forget 9 already. But hey, this is "progress".0
03:47:24 <pikhq_> 丸 is "round", and it is 9 + a stroke.
03:47:41 <pikhq_> "The land of the rising sun" is a poetic translation of 日本国, the official name for the country of Japan.
03:48:07 <elliott> What is the literal translation?
03:48:19 <pikhq_> "The root of the sun".
03:48:31 <pikhq_> Well, "The country of the root of the sun."
03:49:04 <pikhq_> Quite obviously coming from the Chinese seeing the sun rise in the east, out towards Japan.
03:50:18 <pikhq_> "Japan" itself is 日本 after traversing through a variety of languages.
03:51:06 <elliott> pikhq_: What does /that/ translate to?
03:53:39 <elliott> Welp, I suppose I should start writing these things down in a day or two when I buy it and start properly.
03:53:46 <elliott> My handwriting is atrocious though.
03:54:12 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
03:54:45 <pikhq_> Don't anyone tell elliott this, but there's a lot of atrocious handwriting in Japan.
03:55:17 <Sgeo> Feel free to tell clog to tell him
04:09:45 -!- augur has joined.
04:11:13 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
04:21:47 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
04:23:02 -!- azaq23 has joined.
04:23:27 -!- aloril has joined.
04:27:59 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
04:41:21 -!- aloril has joined.
04:41:28 <Gregor> SOMALIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
04:48:50 <pikhq_> Gregor: What's this about Somalia, anyways?
04:49:02 <Gregor> pikhq_: You'll see SOON ENOUGH
04:49:12 <Gregor> Any time within the last 24 hours lololol DAMN YOU SOMALIA
04:49:50 * pikhq_ concludes that Somalia has gotten a fucking government, making it less valuable in thwarting anarchists
04:50:13 <Gregor> Fucking government: The best kind of government?
04:51:13 <pikhq_> I approve of government-by-orgy.
04:59:47 <pikhq_> Nay, I heartily applaud it.
05:15:42 -!- asiekierka has joined.
05:42:09 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:43:01 -!- wareya has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:49:47 -!- wareya has joined.
06:15:15 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
06:15:47 -!- augur has joined.
06:46:26 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game).
06:47:05 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
06:48:49 -!- augur has joined.
07:42:14 -!- oerjan has joined.
07:44:29 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
07:45:52 -!- cheater00 has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:14:44 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
08:15:47 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.16/20101130074636]).
08:22:24 -!- wetneb has joined.
08:27:41 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
08:28:21 -!- copumpkin has joined.
08:39:56 -!- wareya_ has joined.
08:39:57 -!- wareya_ has quit (Client Quit).
08:58:51 -!- wetneb has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
09:35:52 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
09:45:19 <quintopia> if Kalastajat is fishermen, what is Kalastajatorppa?
09:45:43 <oerjan> `translatefromto fi en torppa
09:46:36 <fizzie> 1. croft -- (a small farm worked by a crofter)
09:46:42 <fizzie> 1. A fenced piece of land, usually small and arable and with a crofter's dwelling thereon.
09:47:10 <fizzie> a. A piece of enclosed ground, used for tillage or pasture: in most localities a small piece of arable land adjacent to a house.
09:47:21 <fizzie> 2. A small agricultural holding worked by a peasant tenant; esp. that of a crofter n.1 in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland (see quot. 1851).
09:47:27 <quintopia> so a Kalastajatorppa is a fish farm?
09:48:11 <fizzie> Well, to me it evokes the image of a sort of rustic cottage-style building owned by a fisherman. (I mean, if we're going literally.)
09:48:24 <fizzie> (It's also a relatively expensive restaurant.)
09:49:17 <fizzie> The name is, I think, a bit whimsical.
09:49:45 <fizzie> "Kalastajatorppa (Fisherman’s cottage) park in 1915" translates a Wikipedia article about the region.
09:50:13 <fizzie> "Hotel Kalastajatorppa (Fisherman’s cottage), Kalastajartorpantie 1 and 2-4. The new part is from 1975 and is planned by Einari Teräsvirta. The old congress part is built in 1937 and 1939, architect Jarl Eklund. The original crofter’s cottage that gave the hotel its name was demolished in 1936, but a local famous basketball team established in 1932 still has its name after that - Torpan Pojat, which means cottage boys in English."
10:06:49 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
10:08:08 -!- cheater00 has joined.
10:14:18 -!- pikhq has joined.
10:14:59 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
11:43:31 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:47:21 -!- ais523 has quit (Excess Flood).
11:47:37 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:01:07 <oerjan> ais523: http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/underload/minskyconv.ul
12:01:42 <ais523> wow, it is possible after all?
12:01:47 <ais523> that language deserves a name of its own
12:02:12 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/underload/ULDisclaim2.hs
12:04:05 <ais523> it might even be worth a research paper
12:04:09 <ais523> heh, and I just noticed the topic
12:05:13 <oerjan> ...not that i've actually checked for previous work, mind you
12:05:29 <ais523> is it exactly likely in this case?
12:05:36 <ais523> although I haven't checked either
12:07:04 <ais523> I'm not even sure what the search terms should be
12:08:11 <ais523> there isn't anything relevant on Google Scholar for "underload programming language", but I'd have been massively surprised if there were
12:12:23 <oerjan> "Much of the original work on concatenative language theory was carried out by Manfred von Thun.
12:23:44 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
12:23:58 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
12:29:57 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
12:33:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
12:39:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:40:43 <ais523> oerjan: can you explain how your !-replacement works?
12:43:13 -!- aloril has joined.
12:45:09 <oerjan> like with the ~:!()^ case, it is a mechanism for turning a program into an equivalent one which can be run in either such a way as to emulate the original program or to delete itself.
12:45:44 <oerjan> however without ~ it gets tricky to actually give the program an argument to test for what to do
12:45:56 <ais523> yep, I can see how that would be problematic
12:46:21 <ais523> because the only way to delete code is to get it to run in such a way as to cancel itself out, as ^ is the only data-deleting command
12:49:06 <oerjan> however inspired by the :!()^ minsky automaton, we do a change of perspective: : can be seen as a command that gives the element on the top of the stack an extra argument, namely _itself_.
12:50:25 <oerjan> the next clue is to consider when the top of the stack is of the form (^P). then you get to run P either once or twice by using ^ or :^, respectively.
12:51:12 <ais523> by adding two copies to the program if it's :^
12:52:40 <oerjan> now consider a program R containing only : or ^, and not ending with : (R could be empty)
12:54:05 <oerjan> now construct L as follows: for every block of :'s followed by ^ in R, L contains ()(^), for every single ^ L contains (), in the reverse order of the corresponding R parts
12:54:28 <oerjan> then we can see that LR is equivalent to the null program.
12:54:53 <ais523> and LRR is thus equivalent to R
12:55:40 <oerjan> incidentally whenever LR is equivalent to the null program, R is equivalent to something of that :^ form. (L might not be just ()'s and (^)'s though)
12:56:07 <oerjan> (this can be seen by reducing all quotes in R away.)
12:57:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
12:57:24 <oerjan> anyway, {R} = L()(^R) is now a program such that {R}^ is null and {R}:^ is R
12:58:11 <oerjan> we should notice that ^ and :^ are _themselves_ of this R form. this means it will be convenient to use such conditionals to control each other.
12:59:22 <ais523> and the rest is just trying to get your existing Minksy machine into that form?
13:00:05 <oerjan> not quite. we also need to handle quotes, which certainly cannot be R's.
13:01:14 <oerjan> so consider the more complicated case of a program P that cannot be canceled only by something on the left, but which can be canceled by something on the left and right _combined_. i.e. LPR is null for some L and R.
13:01:57 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
13:02:18 <oerjan> also let L'R be null (we could make L' = LP but P may be much larger than necessary for this.)
13:02:55 <oerjan> then we can define {P} = LR'()(^RP)
13:03:28 <oerjan> and once again, {P}:^ is P
13:03:31 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
13:03:40 <ais523> you haven't defined R'
13:03:56 <oerjan> *then we can define {P} = LL'()(^RP)
13:04:22 <oerjan> got a bit confused by L' being a function of R, more or less
13:05:07 -!- cheater00 has joined.
13:05:08 <ais523> so executing it with ^, we get LL'RP = LP, and with :^, we get LL'RPRP = LPRP = P?
13:05:38 <oerjan> note that for this complicated case we don't have a unique command to delete
13:06:01 <ais523> hmm... but we can delete LP by running R, and thus L'RR
13:06:12 <ais523> and we can run L'R in order to not delete anything
13:06:38 <ais523> ah, just thinking out loud
13:06:47 <ais523> I don't think that method would work directly
13:08:23 <oerjan> now this variability of ^R is a bit of a problem, we need a common API so to speak for things that are put on the stack
13:08:44 <oerjan> but as i said, these conditionals can control each other.
13:09:26 <ais523> ah, I see, you're using ^R to delete, and :^ to run
13:09:32 <ais523> and the issue is that ^R is not always the same thing
13:09:54 * oerjan needs a new type of bracket
13:11:13 -!- nddrylliog has joined.
13:11:26 <oerjan> since ^R is something left cancelable (by L'()), we know that {^R} is deleted by ^. this means that <P>^:^ is P
13:12:07 <ais523> surely you need L' to actually be there, in order for ^ to delete it?
13:12:46 <ais523> as in, merely being left-cancellable isn't enough for something to be deleted by ^, you need the actual left-canceller to cancel it
13:12:47 <oerjan> by ^R being left cancelable by L'() i mean that L'()^R is null
13:13:09 <ais523> oh, I missed the braces around {^R}
13:13:33 <ais523> so {^R}^ = null, {^R}:^ = ^R?
13:15:25 <oerjan> this will be the "API" for running/deleting programs of the kind that are put on the stack.
13:15:36 <oerjan> and inside translated quotes
13:15:36 -!- augur has joined.
13:15:39 <ais523> so you now have ^:^ and :^ as a second set of booleans, which unfortunately aren't left-cancellable
13:16:11 <ais523> it's ending with : that makes something uncancellable
13:17:34 <oerjan> as i mentioned above, whenever LR is null, R is automatically equivalent to these left cancelable things
13:18:13 <oerjan> (or alternatively, my haskell program constructs cancelable blocks with R's of this form, anyway)
13:19:08 <ais523> that reminds me a bit of my 2,3 proof, actually; it has cancelling-out constructions as well
13:19:28 <ais523> where it arranges sections of tape to cancel each other's effects out (although only for a finitely long length of time)
13:22:09 <oerjan> we now have the API settled, so we can translate individual commands: ! -> ^:^, ^ -> ^^:^ and : -> :
13:26:05 <oerjan> now assuming we have recursively translated nested quoted programs, the quotes in the program will be cancelable solely from the right.
13:27:29 <oerjan> ^ is cancelable from the left, as is :'s followed by ^. a : alone needs a combination.
13:27:31 -!- nddrylliog has quit (Quit: used jmIrc).
13:28:30 <oerjan> so we now split up a subprogram (with quotes already handled recursively) into blocks where each block is cancelable.
13:30:10 <oerjan> P = QP1P2..Pn. QQ', LiPiRi being null.
13:30:43 <oerjan> (the special Q is just for a bit of efficiency.)
13:31:33 <Ilari> Haha: "He also said that they understand that IPv6 is not ready because OS vendors have not implemented IPsec. Talk about a bozo filter..." (from NANOG list).
13:32:50 <oerjan> and now we define <P> = Q{P1}{:^P2}..{:^Pn}{^Rn()(^)...^R2()(^)^R1Q'}
13:32:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:33:27 <oerjan> (n should be >= 1 btw, we can add a dummy P1 if needed.)
13:34:47 <oerjan> and this still obeys the same API as for a cancelable P
13:35:34 <oerjan> *and now we define <P> = Q{P1}{:^P2}..{:^Pn}{^Rn...^R2^R1Q'}
13:36:01 <oerjan> erroneously mixing in an L-part there :)
13:36:41 <oerjan> ais523: and that's about it, i think
13:36:51 <ais523> yep, that seems a pretty good description
13:37:27 <ais523> it's both logical and beautifully non-obvious, and reveals something that seems moderately profound about programming
13:41:28 <oerjan> each Pi block constructed by my program tends to be of the form :^::^^:(...)...(...), with : and ^ (and sometimes S) first and quotes last
13:42:29 <oerjan> the quotes and half a final : cancel from the right, the ^'s and most of the :'s from the left
13:43:41 <oerjan> oh and Q is just quotes, thus the name :D
13:43:51 <ais523> well, I think that's provably the minimum Underload minimization
13:44:11 <ais523> to go any lower/different, you'd need to change some of the commands
13:44:27 <oerjan> yeah you should ask elliott about that, he had some suggestions
13:48:38 -!- Deewiant has quit (Quit: Viivan loppu.).
13:57:42 <Gregor> SOMALIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
14:22:49 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
14:23:58 <Ilari> Trying to figure out how to construct turing tape block in Pointer-B. What it needs to do is fairly simple. Coding it is another matter since it involves loading a number of numbers (oh, and the numbers needed depend on the amount of code loading other numbers, and sometimes also the number itself takes).
14:24:55 -!- augur has joined.
14:28:23 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
14:37:01 -!- asiekierka has joined.
14:43:19 -!- azaq23 has joined.
14:52:09 -!- copumpkin has joined.
14:57:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
14:59:28 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:01:37 -!- cheater00 has joined.
15:06:39 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
15:09:31 <fizzie> In the "selected Unicode character names" series today: U+1F192 SQUARED COOL.
15:09:38 <fizzie> (It is, in fact, just the word "COOL" in a box.)
15:11:59 -!- pumpkin has joined.
15:13:50 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
15:17:29 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
15:20:19 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:20:20 <quintopia> woah. when did the topic thing happen?
15:20:57 <fizzie> No, the next char is U+1F193 SQUARED FREE.
15:21:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:23:28 <fizzie> There's SQUARED CL, COOL, FREE, ID, NEW, NG, OK, SOS, UP WITH EXCLAMATION MARK and VS.
15:24:08 <Gregor> fizzie: Not as good as LOVE HOTEL
15:24:12 <fizzie> And SQUARE DJ, which is just DJ without the enclosing square.
15:31:13 -!- cheater00 has joined.
15:31:55 -!- copumpkin has joined.
15:33:24 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
15:34:08 -!- pikhq has joined.
15:34:43 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
15:39:04 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
15:43:36 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
15:47:02 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:48:18 -!- cheater00 has joined.
15:51:00 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
15:52:31 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:56:16 -!- haze_skw has joined.
15:59:03 -!- copumpkin has joined.
15:59:03 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
15:59:03 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:00:33 -!- haze_skw has left (?).
16:01:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:01:27 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
16:08:43 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
16:13:23 <ais523> I don't see how you plan to do S, Eodermdrome is very bad at copying things
16:14:03 <ais523> I mean, it's /possible/ due to being TC, bu doing it directly would be difficult
16:14:44 <ais523> the obvious way to copy data in Eodermdrome would be to unzip it DNA-style
16:14:52 <ais523> which might be quite interesting, actually
16:15:18 <ais523> do you know how DNA is copied?
16:15:31 <ais523> most proteins in human cells have the same localish view of reality that Eodermdrome does
16:15:46 <ais523> and no, it isn't, e.g. Minksy machines don't; but S copies things, or else shares them
16:15:49 <ais523> and sharing would be messy too
16:16:09 <ais523> trying to work out which line was which
16:16:15 <ais523> it's the basic problem of eodermdrome
16:16:50 <ais523> trying to work out which connection is which
16:17:03 <ais523> as nothing is labeled graph shapes as labels
16:17:37 <ais523> I think my client is screwing up again (due to stray touches on touchpads)
16:20:24 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:25:20 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:25:25 -!- pumpkin has joined.
16:27:12 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:28:00 * Phantom__Hoover wants to redirect DNA-Sharp to MONOD, but suspects that this would not go down well with ais.
16:28:20 -!- Slo912 has joined.
16:34:29 <Gregor> Why do we immediately jump all over anybody who joins :P
16:37:13 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net).
16:42:20 -!- Slo912 has quit (Quit: Slo912).
16:45:11 -!- Vorpal has joined.
16:51:54 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, err what? (note I have no scrollback. I just rebooted after a kernel upgrade)
16:52:36 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:53:08 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, where is elliott's logging bot btw?
16:55:29 <Vorpal> I'm now on fancy 2.6.37.2 btw
16:55:47 <Vorpal> still seems like the same old world
16:55:48 -!- Deewiant has joined.
16:56:13 <Vorpal> most importantly... Still no flying cars.
17:02:54 -!- augur has joined.
17:06:46 <olsner> hmm, elliott disappeared
17:12:11 <Vorpal> how strange. radvd randomly unconfigured itself. As in the config file was wrong.
17:12:17 <Vorpal> well time to track that down...
17:13:22 <Vorpal> (good thing I keep /etc in version control!)
17:14:04 <Vorpal> the package moved from aur to main distro repos. And the config file location changed. Right.
17:19:20 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:25:03 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:27:27 <oerjan> <quintopia> woah. when did the topic thing happen?
17:27:51 <oerjan> i've been working on it for about the past week
17:28:39 <oerjan> and yesterday my conversion program was finished, so i could test the theory
17:29:04 -!- wetneb has joined.
17:29:23 <oerjan> wet nebs, the best kind of nebs
17:29:58 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.04: 8k to Bangladesh, 512k+2k+1k to Japan, 2x64k+2x1k+2x256 to Australia, 64k+2k to Indonesia, 4k to China. No IPv6 allocations.
17:30:19 <ais523> Ilari: do you think APNIC's going to run out first? RIPE and ARIN have relatively scary burn rates too
17:31:32 <oerjan> <ais523> and sharing would be messy too
17:31:44 <oerjan> hm it might still be more efficient than copying...
17:32:32 <oerjan> might leak memory, i imagine
17:32:59 <Gregor> Non-leakiness is not a requirement for TC :P
17:33:02 <ais523> yep, you'd get detached bits of graphs
17:33:08 <ais523> Gregor: we know Eodermdrome's TC anyway
17:33:41 <Ilari> ais523: I hope those aren't even remotely as scary as APNIC. And I don't think those are.
17:34:25 -!- Gregor has left (?).
17:34:29 <oerjan> ais523: although you might manage reference counting too... well if you can fit it within the 26 letters.
17:34:30 -!- Gregor has joined.
17:34:48 <ais523> you could count references in unary, but it'd still be nasty
17:34:56 <oerjan> although hm, deleting something when reference count reaches 0 is probably as hard as that DNA zipping
17:36:50 <Vorpal> oerjan, is the topic about the subset of underload that consists of :()^ ?
17:36:55 <ais523> it'd be more efficient though
17:37:01 <ais523> Vorpal: I'm not oerjan, but yes
17:37:08 <ais523> well, you're allowed to put things inside the parens
17:37:21 <ais523> but just :, ^, and more parens
17:37:22 <Vorpal> ais523, "<oerjan> <quintopia> woah. when did the topic thing happen?" "<oerjan> i've been working on it for about the past week"
17:37:39 <Vorpal> ais523, so that is what I responded to :P
17:38:41 <Vorpal> so why do you expect me to ask you specifically? Or did you apologize for answering in his place? (Why would someone apologize for that?!)
17:39:01 <oerjan> Vorpal: http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/underload/minskyconv.ul and http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/underload/ULDisclaim2.hs
17:39:16 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:39:27 <oerjan> the first one is a minsky machine example
17:39:34 <Vorpal> will look at those a bit later
17:40:08 <ais523> Vorpal: I was apologising for answering in his place
17:40:09 -!- copumpkin has joined.
17:40:18 <ais523> and I generally do that when answering a question specifically aimed at someone else
17:40:23 <oerjan> Vorpal: also ais523 is the only one who has got a full explanation (unless you read the logs) so he is somewhat qualified
17:40:28 <ais523> there was a "oerjan," at the start of the line
17:40:57 <oerjan> (i _suppose_ others might have been reading too, but they didn't say so)
17:42:11 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:44:43 -!- cheater99 has joined.
17:45:13 <Ilari> December-February (90 days) current unreserved pool and linear estimate: RIPE NCC: 1.612/3.30 (184 days). ARIN: 0.947/4.19 (398 days). APNIC: 3.693/3.37 (82 days!)
17:45:45 <Ilari> Of course, that doesn't take panic and demand shifting into account. But APNIC is depleting far far faster than other RIRs.
17:46:48 -!- augur_ has joined.
17:46:57 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:46:58 <Ilari> Darn that I can't get good figures about free pool size for any other RIR than APNIC.
17:48:51 <Ilari> Anyway, the errors in pool sizes are by far insufficient for it to really be even near.
17:50:00 <pikhq> Oh jeeze. Peak oil is insanely close.
17:50:42 <pikhq> Estimates start at the end of this year.
17:50:48 <Ilari> Are you sure it even is in the future?
17:51:11 <pikhq> That is, if it hasn't happened right about now.
17:51:13 -!- pumpkin has joined.
17:51:16 <pikhq> Which is genuinely possible.
17:51:42 <pikhq> Shit's going to get *baaaad*.
17:51:48 <ais523> what definition of peak oil are you using, btw?
17:52:19 <pikhq> ais523: No further increase in oil production, and *likely* a begin in decrease of oil production.
17:52:38 <ais523> are people really insane enough to rely on oil production /increases/?
17:52:38 <pikhq> Erm, start in decrease.
17:52:53 <ais523> that's like the definition of a deficit, the amount of extra debt a country gets year on year
17:53:09 <ais523> the fact that the definition even exists is scary
17:53:12 <pikhq> ais523: Keep in mind that much of the world-wide economic development has relied on increases in oil production.
17:54:15 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:54:18 <pikhq> If oil production begins to *decrease*, the US is going to have some *really* bad shit happening.
17:55:07 <ais523> it could start by increasing the price of oil to something sane
17:55:40 <ais523> it's held artificially high in the UK via taxes, which among other things means that a decrease in production, causing a price rise, could be at least partially absorbed by lowering taxes
17:55:44 <pikhq> Political suicide.
17:56:20 <pikhq> Recall that Americans, as a whole, *depend* on oil being cheap.
17:56:27 <Ilari> And whenever peak oil is/was one has to remember oil production (by almost any defintion) has been aproximately flat since 2004/2005.
17:56:53 <pikhq> Ilari: Ah, fuck, you're right.
17:57:21 <ais523> hmm, this probably explains the rise of biodiesel in the US
17:57:32 <ais523> there aren't many other explanations for it, as it seems to make not much economic sense
17:57:47 <ais523> but if it's a case of relaxing capacity issues on crude supply, there might be a reason for it
17:58:01 <Ilari> And biofuels stuff is completely insane. The EROEI is just plain horrible.
17:58:11 <ais523> and you can just conclude lobbyists or something for why it's done in such an insane way
17:58:31 <pikhq> ais523: Corn subsidies weight the whole thing against sanity.
17:58:51 <pikhq> Remember, the cost to produce corn is negative.
17:59:03 <Ilari> And looks like the economy is now in oscillatory mode caused by hitting oil supply constraints...
17:59:52 <pikhq> Ilari: Actually, the severe oscillation can be more accurately blamed on unregulated finance.
18:00:06 <pikhq> Though oil isn't helping things any.
18:00:21 <Ilari> And of course, the unrest in muslim countries doesn't help matters any.
18:00:47 <oerjan> i recall there was an oil price inflation just before the financial crisis hit
18:01:02 <oerjan> but the crisis sort of nullified it, iirc
18:01:03 <pikhq> Yeah. The economic situation is the result of a whole *ton* of stupid decisions and just straight-up bad fortune.
18:01:22 <Ilari> Of course, push things to extreme and disasters happen.
18:01:27 <pikhq> oerjan: Yeah, but it certainly didn't *cause* the financial crisis, even in the US.
18:02:05 <oerjan> pikhq: No, i meant it the other way around, the financial crisis stopped it
18:02:19 <pikhq> Yeah, it seems to have put a temporary hold on it.
18:02:35 <pikhq> Though we're seeing the price of oil skyrocket again.
18:02:51 <ais523> hmm, did the financial crisis actually hurt anyone, as in deaths, etc.?
18:02:56 <ais523> or did it just reduce quality of life?
18:03:12 <pikhq> ais523: In the US, it certainly caused deaths.
18:03:12 <oerjan> i'm sure there were _some_ suicides and stuff
18:03:33 <pikhq> Remember, unemployment means no non-ER health care.
18:03:47 <ais523> oh right, the US health system is insane
18:03:51 <Ilari> And it pushed financial system to really really edge. And thus the massive bailouts.
18:04:52 <pikhq> Oil is at about $100 a gallon.
18:05:26 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_of_petroleum
18:05:33 <oerjan> still a bit up to the top
18:08:10 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:11:08 <Ilari> And of course, SAD (Standard American Diet) doesn't help things any.
18:12:27 <Ilari> It seems that out of diets that aren't blantantly massively deficient, diets that rollercoaster blood sugar, resulting in massive snacking are the absolute worst.
18:13:42 -!- ais523_ has joined.
18:14:36 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services).
18:14:37 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
18:14:38 <Gregor> SOMALIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
18:16:24 <Ilari> Whatever the diet, at least have a diet that one can follow and isn't blatantly deficient. Otherwise, you will end up snacking a lot, and those foods are the absolute worst.
18:16:41 <Gregor> SOMALIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
18:18:23 <Ilari> Loads of sugar, loads of industrial trans fats (yes, those do still exist), loads of "fat" that isn't even fat anymore and other bad-for-you stuff...
18:20:58 <Gregor> SOMALIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
18:21:14 <Ilari> Oh, and apparently lots of that third group of trans fats (polyunsaturated non-conjugated trans fats), of which very little is known.
18:22:27 <Gregor> Except that they're delicious.
18:22:55 <Ilari> I don't think those things even taste good.
18:24:34 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:24:38 -!- cheater00 has joined.
18:26:19 * Gregor turns back to the channel and away from his tub of Imitation Butter Flavr polyunsaturated non-conjugated trans fat meal to disagree. Then curse Somalia.
18:28:13 <oerjan> polly unsaturated, wants a cracker!
18:32:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Reboot).
18:37:26 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:01:21 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:07:42 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:14:16 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:19:20 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:21:00 -!- cheater00 has joined.
19:23:51 -!- augur has joined.
19:24:07 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:24:12 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:25:33 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:32:23 -!- copumpkin has joined.
19:42:40 -!- pumpkin has joined.
19:43:51 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:45:14 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
20:06:02 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:07:11 <Sgeo> I think my Statistics professor may be an idiot
20:07:17 <Sgeo> But I'm not sure, I want to ask in here
20:08:16 <Phantom__Hoover> a) you do, b) they are because only an idiot would voluntarily teach at a place called "Farmingdale".
20:08:55 <fizzie> To quote the 8-ball: ALL SIGNS POINT TO YES. [Disclaimer: the earlier may not be construed as the opinion of me.]
20:09:03 <Sgeo> So, problem: X represents how many times 1 appears on a fair die in 3 rolls
20:09:07 <Gregor> I'll bet Farmingdale doesn't even have a better Poultry Sciences department than Purdue.
20:09:26 <fizzie> Gregor: I bet they just Farmville all the time.
20:09:35 <Phantom__Hoover> Gregor, yeah, but Purdue has poultry science facilities beyond the dreams of avarice.
20:09:52 <Sgeo> He proceeds to show the possibility (I forget the exact term) space as such:
20:10:38 <Sgeo> Then says that the probability of P(0) = 1/8
20:10:39 <Gregor> "not 1" is a poor way to represent a fair die :P
20:10:58 <oerjan> Sgeo: i'd be worried if the etc. doesn't include 1 not1 1
20:11:07 <Sgeo> oerjan, it does
20:11:17 <Gregor> Technically he didn't say how many sides the die has.
20:11:24 <Gregor> It could be a two-sided die (also known as a coin)
20:12:17 <Phantom__Hoover> It's 1-(5/6)^3, which is trivial if you know any probability at all.
20:12:21 <Sgeo> He explains the discrepency between what the formula got and what he did there as the difference between "discrete" and "binomial" (I may have forgotten the exact term there) variables
20:12:33 <Gregor> Phantom__Hoover: Number of 1s, not 1 appearing at all.
20:12:47 <Gregor> Phantom__Hoover: (Which is even more trivial)
20:12:57 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: um P(0) is (5/6)^3, no 1-
20:12:59 <Gregor> Oh, or maybe I misunderstood the question *shrugs*
20:13:58 <Sgeo> He says that the 1/8 is considering it as a discrete variable, and the formula as binomial
20:14:26 <Phantom__Hoover> Sgeo, please inform him of this and that the disagreement is backed up by an unemployed mathematician, a programmer whose greatest achievement is a JS game and a 16-year-old.
20:14:29 <fizzie> I guess by his logic, P(X=3) = P(X=0) = 1/8?
20:14:47 <oerjan> Sgeo: he is wrongly assuming uniformity of the two options he has made for each coin
20:15:12 <fizzie> oerjan: Oh, so now it *is* a coin? :p
20:15:20 <Sgeo> I think I ended up questioning that in the middle of class. Once as me just being confused, and once as me trying to explain why the answers were disagreeing
20:15:52 <Phantom__Hoover> He *thinks the sum of the probabilities on a dice roll are 3.*
20:15:57 <oerjan> Sgeo: you should have made him a large bet :D
20:16:18 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, where did I say he thinks that?
20:17:02 <oerjan> well he is obviously forgetting that the binomial distribution has a parameter for the probability of the even you count
20:17:32 <Phantom__Hoover> Sgeo, "fair dice" and the fact that P(X) = P(¬X) → sum is 3.
20:17:32 <fizzie> The whole "discrete"/"binomial" thing sounds rather confused too.
20:17:34 <Sgeo> oerjan, it's not like he left that out of the formula he gave us...
20:18:29 <Sgeo> According to him, (as a discrete variable), P(0) = 1/8, P(1) = 3/8, P(2) = 3/8, P(3) = 1/8
20:18:42 <Sgeo> So no, that doesn't equal 3
20:18:59 <Phantom__Hoover> Sgeo, erm, I mean in terms of the sum of the die rolling each face.
20:19:02 <oerjan> well that's of course correct for a coin.
20:19:50 <Sgeo> I kept telling him that the possibility space he should be expanding the not1, so 1 1 not1 -> 1 1 2, 1 1 3, etc. And he kept saying that then it wouldn't be binomial
20:20:16 <oerjan> Sgeo: there is absolutely no need to expand the not1 if you know what you are doing, though
20:20:44 <oerjan> you just need to take into account that the probability of a single not1 is 5/6, not 1/2
20:21:19 <Sgeo> Is there any context in which his answers make sense?
20:21:26 <Sgeo> Some weird phrasing of the question
20:21:48 <Sgeo> Besides P(success)=1/2
20:22:17 <fizzie> A coin, the fairest of dice.
20:23:17 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, hmm?
20:23:32 <Sgeo> He was showing us with a coin on Monday. That wasn't what he wanted to illustrate
20:24:16 <fizzie> I think the "wouldn't be binomial if you expand the not1" does sort-of make sense, since the binomial distribution is for the number of successes of yes/no Bernoulli trials.
20:24:17 <Phantom__Hoover> Anyway, in non-idiot news, I'm thinking of doing an Eodermdrome implementation.
20:24:56 <fizzie> (But still, you can't assume p=0.5 for those trials.)
20:26:07 <Gregor> ARGH. SOMALIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
20:27:27 -!- FireFly has joined.
20:27:37 <Gregor> Wow, somebody figured it out
20:27:55 <Gregor> I've just been screaming "SOMALIAAAAAAAAAAA" all day wondering whether anybody would "get it" :P
20:28:46 <Gregor> oerjan: Are you offended by my quest for awesome domain names?
20:28:47 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:29:36 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:29:36 <oerjan> no, i was assuming you were talking about some news that somehow i never saw...
20:30:07 <oerjan> i mean there was this danish family but i didn't think that would cause such a reaction.
20:30:33 <Gregor> The news that the .so landrush is over, and they will be assigning domains within the previous 24 hours or so.
20:30:52 <Gregor> In theory I may already own libc.so
20:30:57 <Gregor> In practice I don't know.
20:31:12 <Gregor> Phantom__Hoover: Not REALLY
20:31:13 <oerjan> *mainstream news, you dolt
20:31:41 <Sgeo> Did you just accuse Gregor of not knowing of a US President who resigned?
20:31:42 <Gregor> Phantom__Hoover: But the transitional government that controls about 1/4 of the capitol and a few other outposts is all about technology, so they got .so up and running :P
20:32:39 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: that would seem the only explanation. but didn't it do that long ago?
20:33:25 <Sgeo> http://www.fark.com/comments/5351459/Michael-Savage-I-dont-know-of-an-American-president-whos-resigned
20:33:28 <Phantom__Hoover> I am also totally disappointed at the lack of interest in my plans for an Eodermdrome implementations.
20:33:37 <Gregor> oerjan: Fine fine, but at least the money actually goes to Somalia, instead of some random company in the US or something.
20:33:58 <fizzie> Phantom__Hoover: The language is cursed: people always just talk about implementing it, but never do. (Did oklopol have an eodermdrome thing or how was it?)
20:35:16 <fizzie> Phantom__Hoover: I thought about recommending the NAUTY library, because it has a silly name, but it seems that it's only really useful for full-graph isomorphism testing, not for the subgraph isomorphism problem.
20:35:57 <Phantom__Hoover> There's an algorithm for that, but I'm failing to understand it due to procrastination.
20:36:19 <fizzie> There's an app for that.
20:37:10 <fizzie> [2008-07-17 19:06:16] < oklopol> i implemented eodermdrome
20:37:21 <fizzie> I think it was horribly inefficient, though.
20:37:21 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: well it is NP-complete
20:38:15 <oerjan> although with subgraph size limited to 26, maybe it's not a problem.
20:38:48 <oerjan> (well that means it's in _principle_ only a P sub-problem.)
20:45:04 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:45:06 <fizzie> The eodermdrome graphs-to-match-against-the-subgraphs-of-the-state-graph are also constant over the lifetime of the program, which might help in some algorithms if they happen to involve some preprocessing on them. (Can't say I've looked at subgraph isomorphism algorithms at all.)
20:46:09 <fizzie> Maybe there ought to be a "Planar Eodermdrome" variant when you want efficient code; I think it was an easier problem there.
20:48:59 <Phantom__Hoover> I was thinking that a variant where copying things was easy would be nice, but I'm not completely sure how to do that.
20:51:13 -!- Zuu has joined.
20:52:05 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:56:38 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.13/20101203075014]).
20:58:01 <oerjan> it seems to me that defining what to copy gets awkward when the graph isn't acyclic
21:01:01 <Phantom__Hoover> Hm? I was thinking simply that there would be a mechanism for having a closed node appear twice in the replacement subgraph, and then deleting the original subgraph except for that node, then building the replacement for the whole graph from two such components and the rest of the replacement subgraph.
21:01:45 <Phantom__Hoover> Erm, the component is the set of vertices reachable from the duplicated node when the rest of the match subgraph is deleted.
21:02:05 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:03:21 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:03:21 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
21:03:21 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:04:29 <fizzie> The coincidentalism is astounding: you start talking about eodermdrome, and at the same time an ad for "An excursion into algebraic tools for combinatorial problems" seminar -- which seems to be mostly about graph-related combinatorics -- drops into my INBOX.
21:05:09 <fizzie> SYN, Chron... I, city?
21:05:20 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
21:05:32 <fizzie> fungot: The sword alone can't stop!
21:05:32 <fungot> fizzie: like, thanks princess. i'll take that under advisement!!
21:05:49 <fizzie> That bot needs to learn some manners.
21:06:26 <oerjan> hey fizzie is _so_ a princess name
21:08:17 <oerjan> well it would be short for fizzonica or something, but still
21:09:28 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:09:41 <Gregor> Princess Fizzonica of Carbonium
21:10:25 <fizzie> "Disney Pretty Princess Fizzie Macic Wand Gift Set ( Fizzie Wand, 15 Tnted Bath Fizzies, Body Wash and Body Lotion )" (amazon.com)
21:11:05 <oerjan> tnt'ed bath fizzies, sounds dangerous
21:11:29 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:11:58 <fizzie> For the "X-treem" bathers, for which the usual bath salts and the like are too tame.
21:12:42 <Gregor> Their bath salts are just sodium, no chlorine.
21:13:18 <fizzie> Hah, http://www.alilg.com/arcade-games/Fizzie-15731.html "Game description: Simple, fun and addictive, the goal is simply to maneuver Fizzie around the screen and capture the rising bubbles." I seem to be... quite spiky.
21:13:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:13:42 <fizzie> "Click the mouse button to make Fizzie go Move the mouse around, and Fizzie will follow the cursor Holding the mouse button down and aiming the cursor towards a bubble is a great way to get Fizzie to catch the bubble Avoid the red enemies"
21:13:56 <fizzie> Yes, I tend to have this urge to follow the cursor around.
21:14:18 <Gregor> I assumed he means CE certification.
21:15:36 <fizzie> The CE/BCE pair is not as nice as AD/BC, since the lengths differ.
21:17:18 <Gregor> We should just use a single number starting from the big bang. DONE. Also, relativity be damned.
21:17:33 <Gregor> It's the Kelvin of time :P
21:17:47 <fizzie> "The Kelvin of time" is a great phrase.
21:19:53 <Gregor> Given current estimates, we should be able to choose a starting year within 110 million years. We could "conveniently" choose one that ends in 2011
21:22:57 <fizzie> Also forget the whole year/month/day nonsense, maybe? Just seconds (it's the SI unit of time) since the big bang.
21:25:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:25:42 <Gregor> As a person who lives on Earth, I have certain reasons to desire the use of years :P
21:26:25 <fizzie> Goal: deprecate all legacy date formats by 2020... uh, I mean, let's say provisionally by 433620000000000000, give and take a few million "old-style years" depending on what the authorities will set the start time at.
21:27:44 <olsner> seconds are too small for most time scales, but it seems well chosen for the shortest timespan since it's easy for humans to approximate
21:30:16 <oerjan> > 433620000000000000/86400/365.2425
21:31:29 <fizzie> oerjan: It was done with the 365-day approximation, sorry about that. Still, it falls in the 13.75 ± 0.11 range, anyway.
21:31:41 <fizzie> The microfortnight, for when the seconds are almost suitable but just a bit too short.
21:31:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:33:26 <Zwaarddijk> who ever figured KDE4 was a good move?
21:34:24 <oerjan> white king captures black queen on E4
21:34:34 <oerjan> looks like a pretty good move to me
21:34:52 <oerjan> the notation is a _little_ off, i think
21:34:55 <Ilari> Ah, NIST got around publishing paper about SHA-3 finalists selection... Finally.
21:35:22 -!- wetneb has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
21:36:43 <Phantom__Hoover> Alternately someone who really knew what they were doing, but more probably an idiot.
21:37:48 <Zwaarddijk> yeah right, you can basically force the king to eat the queen, and then checkmate him, in some circumstances, but I'd consider that a checkmate by the point the queen threatens him already
21:39:41 <fizzie> http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1387595 -- here's a king-captures-the-queen game, courteously provided by Google, fed through an onerous Javapplet.
21:41:25 <fizzie> (I was hoping to find some sort of a number as to how often that happens in "real" chess games.)
21:57:45 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:57:51 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
21:57:52 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:59:30 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
22:03:25 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
22:03:55 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:09:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
22:13:01 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:13:50 -!- Patashu has joined.
22:13:51 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
22:16:51 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:17:16 -!- Behold has joined.
22:17:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:32:44 <Phantom__Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/fvvd4/iama_member_of_congress_rep_john_garamendi_dca_ama/
22:40:42 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:41:44 <Mathnerd314> q: is it true that you've been bribed into secrecy?
22:46:26 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:48:04 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:52:25 -!- elliott has joined.
22:52:27 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:54:29 <elliott> 19:54:45 <pikhq_> Don't anyone tell elliott this, but there's a lot of atrocious handwriting in Japan.
22:54:40 <elliott> pikhq: my handwriting is that of a 3 year old
22:55:23 <elliott> "US looking at new moves on Somalia piracy-Clinton"
22:55:31 <elliott> BUT HOW WILL THEY GET THEIR MUSIC AND SOFTWARE
22:57:31 <pikhq> With the other form of piracy.
23:00:03 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:01:59 <elliott> 09:06:46 <olsner> hmm, elliott disappeared
23:02:01 -!- copumpkin has joined.
23:02:06 <elliott> olsner: don't worry, i came back
23:02:12 <elliott> what do you wish to consult me on, pilgrim?
23:03:18 <elliott> 09:40:57 <oerjan> (i _suppose_ others might have been reading too, but they didn't say so)
23:03:27 <elliott> my future self was with you during that explanation.
23:05:33 <elliott> 10:03:47 <ais523> oh right, the US health system is insane
23:05:33 <elliott> 10:04:01 <ais523> work or die
23:05:37 <elliott> "it's not a bug, it's a feature!"
23:05:56 -!- Slereah has joined.
23:07:13 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom__Hoover> Gregor, yeah, but Purdue has poultry science facilities beyond the dreams of avarice.
23:07:23 <HackEgo> 328) <Phantom__Hoover> Gregor, yeah, but Purdue has poultry science facilities beyond the dreams of avarice.
23:08:19 <elliott> 12:14:26 <Phantom__Hoover> Sgeo, please inform him of this and that the disagreement is backed up by an unemployed mathematician, a programmer whose greatest achievement is a JS game and a 16-year-old.
23:08:24 <elliott> together, they fight crime!
23:08:39 <elliott> 12:14:47 <oerjan> Sgeo: he is wrongly assuming uniformity of the two options he has made for each coin
23:08:39 <elliott> 12:15:12 <fizzie> oerjan: Oh, so now it *is* a coin? :p
23:08:42 <elliott> yes, those pesky six-sided coins!
23:08:56 <elliott> 12:15:57 <oerjan> Sgeo: you should have made him a large bet :D
23:09:33 <elliott> 12:23:33 <Phantom__Hoover> Sgeo, die rather than coin.
23:10:44 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:11:28 <elliott> 13:05:32 <fizzie> fungot: The sword alone can't stop!
23:11:29 <elliott> 13:05:32 <fungot> fizzie: like, thanks princess. i'll take that under advisement!!
23:11:29 <fungot> elliott: i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! geez! i see you're dressing...normally again!? you're joking!?
23:11:29 <fungot> elliott: there! there it is! but by the time we're through with you, you'll be in danger. open hatch.
23:11:43 <elliott> at least if i remember my fungot correctly.
23:11:43 <fungot> elliott: that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop, crono!
23:12:26 <elliott> 13:13:18 <fizzie> Hah, http://www.alilg.com/arcade-games/Fizzie-15731.html "Game description: Simple, fun and addictive, the goal is simply to maneuver Fizzie around the screen and capture the rising bubbles." I seem to be... quite spiky.
23:12:34 <elliott> fizzie: no, that's Fizzie; you're obviously fizzie.
23:12:59 <elliott> 13:13:35 <Phantom__Hoover> Is it just me who hates "CE"?
23:12:59 <elliott> 13:14:13 <Phantom__Hoover> No, instead of "AD".
23:12:59 <elliott> THEY'RE TAKIN' OOR CHRISTIANITY
23:14:22 -!- copumpkin has joined.
23:14:58 <elliott> 14:41:44 <Mathnerd314> q: is it true that you've been bribed into secrecy?
23:15:36 <Mathnerd314> elliott: the government is clearly involved in a conspiracy
23:15:45 <elliott> Mathnerd314: No, it's not.
23:16:16 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:16:16 <elliott> Mathnerd314: Burden of proof is on you; you are the one making the extraordinary claim.
23:16:49 <Mathnerd314> elliott: it is more likely for a conspiracy to exist than for one not to exist
23:16:54 <elliott> Mathnerd314: By what evidence?
23:17:50 <Mathnerd314> elliott: by the evidence that conspiracies are common
23:18:12 <elliott> Mathnerd314: What is your evidence for that? And how does it generalise to the fact that the US government is *huge* and not exactly centralised?
23:18:16 <elliott> And what exactly is this conspiracy's goals?
23:18:40 <Mathnerd314> I don't know that much about the conspiracy; just that it exists
23:20:12 <elliott> Mathnerd314: I don't know why I keep humouring you by prodding your inane assertions with requests for clarifications, you're clearly an idiot who tries to appear intellectual by spouting unsubstantiated bullshit.
23:20:55 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:21:28 -!- pingveno has joined.
23:21:47 <elliott> I'm sure the conspiracy is to cover up how powerful term rewriting is.
23:26:02 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:30:46 -!- copumpkin has joined.
23:31:24 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:31:32 <elliott> pikhq: Hundred = one drop sun. WELL DUHHH
23:43:35 * Lymia sees insane people
23:43:38 <Lymia> Nothing out of the ordinary.
23:48:50 <pikhq> I really get the strong feeling that math education's ordering is based on when things were first discovered, rather than anything that makes sense at all.
23:49:04 <pikhq> On up through post-secondary.
23:50:51 <pikhq> Can anyone give me a rationale for defining many different objects and reïterating, except much more tediously, that they form a group, a monoid, a field, etc., before teaching those damned concepts?
23:51:42 <fizzie> An advocate of New Math, then?
23:51:50 <pikhq> fizzie: Not *quite*.
23:52:54 -!- shachaf has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:53:00 -!- shachaf has joined.
23:53:18 <elliott> pikhq: That Tae Kim fellow doesn't appear to like Remembering the Kanji
23:53:23 <pikhq> fizzie: But there is no damned reason to teach these after you're already dealing with the concept of freaking vector spaces.
23:53:40 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, yeah, yeah, he seems to misunderstand RTK.
23:53:51 <elliott> pikhq: CLEARLY HE IS A MORON
23:54:17 <pikhq> elliott: No, his conception of RTK seems to be defined by some of the morons who have started on RTK.
23:54:21 <elliott> fizzie: the problem with new math was that it wasn't preceded by New Logic and English wasn't eliminated and ;D
23:54:36 <elliott> (ok new math was probably a legitimately bad idea, but i'm aaaall for teaching useless theory to 3 year olds)
23:55:04 <elliott> "I hope this ranks #1 in google for “Heisig douche bag” (Updated)"
23:55:08 <pikhq> elliott: Some people actually think that finishing RTK will get you full, complete literacy.
23:55:39 <elliott> "Even so, after over 50 comments, nobody has stepped forth and met my challenge by saying, “Yes, I can write whole words and sentences like a native using his methods.”"
23:55:45 <elliott> o ya, i forgot the part in the preface where he was all like
23:55:51 <elliott> and if you know all the kanji (all of them)
23:55:55 <elliott> you will be able to WRITE SENTENCES!!
23:56:10 <pikhq> When really, all it will do is make kanji not a barrier to entry.
23:56:34 <elliott> [[If that’s not enough to incite you into commenting, here some more fodder.
23:56:34 <elliott> I think it’s better to teach casual Japanese before polite Japanese. It sounds crazy I know, but first of all, it’s how all native speakers started out as kids so it can’t be that bad. Second, it’s much more useful grammatically and socially if you’re in high school or college. Finally, I worked at one of the largest, oldest, and most traditional Japanese companies in Tokyo and “business Japanese” was just putting “desu” and “
23:56:34 <elliott> masu” at the end of every sentence. The rest is knowing phrases like 「いつもお世話になっております」, honorific/humble, and vocabulary that’s too difficult for beginners anyway.]]
23:56:39 <elliott> err does heisig actually contradict that
23:56:43 <elliott> or is he just trying to get people to flame
23:56:52 <pikhq> No, Heisig doesn't ever claim that at all.
23:57:04 <pikhq> Erm, doesn't contradict it at all.
23:57:23 <pikhq> I seem to recall some interviews with Heisig saying that his further Japanese learning involved comics and talking with kids.
23:57:37 -!- pumpkin has joined.
23:57:38 <pikhq> Which suggests that he first learned casual Japanese. :P
23:58:38 <pikhq> So, yeah, Tae Kim seems to be trolling there.
23:58:51 <elliott> pikhq: hmm, do comics et al (SHUT UP I KNOW IT'S "ETC", "ET AL" IS NICER) not use the politeness crap?
23:59:16 <pikhq> elliott: Manga and anime in particular are much less likely to use the politeness crap.
23:59:47 <elliott> pikhq: what about like, novels
00:00:15 <pikhq> elliott: Narration will generally be polite, but not necessarily, and dialog will be, well, entirely natural.
00:00:50 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:01:04 <pikhq> Also, the transformation from casual to merely *polite* form is actually fairly trivial.
00:02:24 <pikhq> It's the higher forms of politeness that are somewhat difficult, courtesy in large part to having to replace certain verbs with more humble or honorific verbs.
00:03:02 <pikhq> (though even then, it's *maybe* 20 verbs that do that, and for the rest it's a regular transformation?)
00:03:45 <pikhq> And, as I said, that feature of Japanese seems to be in the process of dying out.
00:04:47 <pikhq> Anyways. Yeah, Tae Kim seems quite misinformed on Heisig. But his guide on grammar I still find to be an invaluable resource.
00:06:29 -!- cheater- has joined.
00:09:04 <pikhq> Really, most everyone's idea on how to introduce basic Japanese grammar is motherfucking retarded.
00:09:11 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:09:30 <Ilari> BTW, regarding oil prices, it seems that WTI prices are exceptionally low (in the past, WTI and others have been highly correlated, but seems that the correlation has broken a bit lately).
00:11:22 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:14:44 <Sgeo> So, Other again failed to realize that it was me texting.
00:25:25 -!- copumpkin has joined.
00:26:45 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:45:44 <pikhq> Y'know, ICANN *really* need to be made independent of the US.
00:48:01 <pikhq> For those who are unaware, ICANN *contracts with the US federal government* to administrate DNS. I am not fucking kidding.
00:49:01 <pikhq> ... Oh, and all of IANA.
00:51:31 -!- pumpkin has joined.
00:52:40 -!- Ladyboy_Who_Smel has joined.
00:53:54 <pikhq> It boggles the mind that the US could, if sufficiently insane, bring down DNS.
00:54:11 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:54:57 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:55:07 <Sgeo> Hi Ladyboy_Who_Smel
00:55:38 -!- Ladyboy_Who_Smel has left (?).
00:55:45 <elliott> Alas poor Ladyboy_Who_Smel.
00:56:01 <elliott> I knew him and/or her and/or it well.
00:58:43 <pikhq> I mean, gah, the President of the United States could order the Department of Commerce to distribute an empty root zone, and bam. DNS is down.
01:00:38 -!- mtve has joined.
01:01:14 <Sgeo> M T V E, M T V E
01:01:22 <Sgeo> Dammit, that didn't come out as I wanted
01:03:10 -!- comex has quit (*.net *.split).
01:07:28 -!- comex has joined.
01:08:27 -!- pumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
01:09:32 -!- comex has quit (*.net *.split).
01:11:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
01:11:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host).
01:11:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
01:15:11 -!- comex has joined.
01:15:56 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:19:04 <Sgeo> Would this be a fair way of describing what happened:
01:19:19 <Sgeo> "I either win the lottery or I don't. Therefore, I have a 50% chance of winning"
01:23:36 <pikhq> Clearly fallacious.
01:24:36 <Sgeo> pikhq, is that pretty much what he did, or is there any merit in the claim that it somehow depends on whether it's discrete or binomial (and the lottery question is an example of just one of those)?
01:25:22 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's a straight-up fallacy.
01:26:23 <pikhq> Sgeo: The presence of two possibilities *in no way* indicates that there is a 50% chance of either one.
01:26:58 <Sgeo> I think whatever his "clarification" on Monday is, I'll present it here. Until then, I'm going to continue assuming he's an idiot.
01:31:12 -!- copumpkin has joined.
01:37:25 <Sgeo> copumpkin, how do you deal with idiot professors?
01:39:23 -!- augur has joined.
02:31:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:43:48 -!- augur has joined.
02:51:59 -!- comex has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net).
02:52:23 -!- comex has joined.
03:18:09 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
03:32:03 -!- IntelMeth has joined.
03:35:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:43:57 -!- augur has joined.
04:27:03 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:32:03 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
04:34:08 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
04:34:41 <RodgerTheGreat> it's been a while since I stopped by, but I just finished a project you folks might be able to appreciate
04:35:13 <RodgerTheGreat> It's a simple Forth VM and compiler written in PostScript: https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Four.Ps
04:45:48 <pikhq> What a coincidence; elliott (was ehird) (seems to have pinged out and probably went to sleep) has been trying to get an x86 Forth in a boot sector.
04:46:33 <pikhq> Though, given that it's elliott, he may have given up on that.
04:47:25 <RodgerTheGreat> well, 512 bytes is *probably* enough for at least a bootstrap compiler
04:47:26 <pikhq> And given that that's insanely tiny even by Forth standards, well, I wouldn't blame him. :P
04:48:19 <RodgerTheGreat> the main challenge is that most designs require some sort of basic dictionary to begin with, and they can eat up a lot of space
04:48:49 <pikhq> Be a bit easier if there were enough space to get a decompressor going.
04:49:17 <RodgerTheGreat> I think that only eats up a little over a hundred bytes
04:50:52 <RodgerTheGreat> http://upx.hg.sourceforge.net/hgweb/upx/upx/file/8a3a08e9ed7f/src/stub/src/i086-dos16.exe.S ?
04:51:13 -!- IntelMeth has left (?).
04:53:00 <pikhq> The actual decompression code is probably big.
04:53:41 <RodgerTheGreat> but I know a modified form of UPX has been used in 4k intros, so the decompression stub is pretty tiny
04:55:06 <RodgerTheGreat> there is also Crinkler, which reportedly has a decompressor that is about 220 bytes: http://crinkler.net/
04:56:46 <pikhq> Possible issues: not bare metal.
04:57:44 <RodgerTheGreat> as in you think crinkler takes advantage of windows stuff, or are you pointing out that a bootloader has to kick into protected mode, etc in addition to whatever work you want done?
04:58:21 <pikhq> It's likely it takes advantage of Windows stuff.
04:58:43 <pikhq> IIRC elliott had getting into protected mode down to something pretty tiny.
04:59:24 <RodgerTheGreat> I think it's usually only a handful of instructions, but they would probably have to go outside the decompressor
05:06:40 <RodgerTheGreat> anyways, if anyone thinks my postscript thing is spiffy just let pikhq know and I can drop by again later
05:06:51 -!- asiekierka has joined.
05:07:06 -!- RodgerTheGreat has left (?).
05:19:45 <pikhq> For those confuséd, RodgerTheGreat and I still have an IRC channel in common.
05:25:18 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:28:40 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
05:28:44 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
05:36:35 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
05:51:09 -!- augur has joined.
06:16:09 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
06:18:37 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
06:47:45 -!- Sgeo has joined.
06:49:43 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
07:01:07 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
07:02:27 -!- Sgeo__ has joined.
07:04:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
07:05:15 -!- Sgeo has joined.
07:05:31 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
07:06:30 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
07:07:21 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
07:09:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
07:21:52 -!- oerjan has joined.
07:29:30 <oerjan> <elliott> I'm sure the conspiracy is to cover up how powerful term rewriting is.
07:29:50 <oerjan> (x): -> (x)(x), (x)^ -> x, bitches!
07:30:19 <oerjan> THWART THE GOVERNMENT, PUT THAT ON T-SHIRTS!
07:31:21 <oerjan> 15:43:35 * Lymia sees insane people
07:31:21 <oerjan> 15:43:38 <Lymia> Nothing out of the ordinary.
07:31:33 <oerjan> it's the dead insane people you should be worried about.
07:34:09 <oerjan> <pikhq> Can anyone give me a rationale for defining many different objects and reïterating, except much more tediously, that they form a group, a monoid, a field, etc., before teaching those damned concepts?
07:34:47 <oerjan> well i think maybe you need at least a couple examples first to show that the general concepts are _useful_.
07:38:04 -!- Sgeo has joined.
07:38:04 <oerjan> <elliott> "I hope this ranks #1 in google for “Heisig douche bag” (Updated)"
07:38:11 <oerjan> sadly just #3, it seems
07:41:04 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
07:49:10 <oerjan> <Sgeo> pikhq, is that pretty much what he did, or is there any merit in the claim that it somehow depends on whether it's discrete or binomial (and the lottery question is an example of just one of those)?
07:49:19 <oerjan> binomial _is_ a form of discrete.
07:51:39 -!- uniqanomaly_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
07:55:22 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
07:57:52 -!- cheater- has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:01:30 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game).
08:03:54 -!- uniqanomaly has joined.
08:05:08 -!- wareya_ has joined.
08:08:45 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
08:17:51 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:18:18 -!- uniqanomaly has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
08:18:20 -!- Sgeo has joined.
08:22:54 -!- uniqanomaly has joined.
08:26:41 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
08:48:45 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
08:51:47 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
08:54:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
09:18:21 -!- Behold has joined.
09:20:37 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
09:22:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
09:25:54 -!- quintopia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:26:01 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:39:34 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
09:40:13 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
09:45:55 -!- pingveno has joined.
10:37:20 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
10:37:48 -!- cheater00 has joined.
10:53:33 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
10:53:38 -!- fizzie has joined.
10:59:42 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
11:01:12 -!- cheater00 has joined.
11:06:54 -!- myndzi has joined.
11:13:34 -!- pikhq has joined.
11:13:48 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
11:24:04 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
11:24:57 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
11:52:13 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:53:46 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
11:53:56 -!- pikhq has joined.
11:59:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:59:54 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
12:05:03 -!- oerjan has joined.
13:09:32 -!- webquint has joined.
13:10:17 <webquint> must have waited too long to pay >.>
13:12:38 <webquint> is there a way to start a process, and then later connect other processes' stdout to that process's stdin temporarily? or is this the sort of thing one must use sockets for?
13:13:49 <fizzie> You could use a named fifo as the stdin of the first process; then you can write into it from different sources.
13:15:54 <webquint> oh wait! fifos! couldn't i have a process watch /several/ fifos?
13:16:20 <webquint> also, how does one create a fifo from C?
13:17:49 <fizzie> If you're writing the code that is to be the process, sure, you can watch multiple pipes if you like.
13:18:11 <fizzie> Also, if you're doing all the process creation from within a single program, you can just use pipe(2) and unnamed pipes.
13:18:47 <webquint> no, i want to be able to start all processes separately from the command line
13:19:11 <fizzie> Well... you can use mknod(2) to create named pipes.
13:19:51 <fizzie> With mknod(pathname, S_IFIFO, 0).
13:20:09 <fizzie> A nitpicker would say this is POSIX and not C, though.
13:21:48 <webquint> heh, ias long as my target system has it, i don't mind using it
13:24:14 <webquint> does the creator become the listener on this pipe or the sender?
13:24:56 <Vorpal> webquint, for pipe(2)?
13:25:29 <Vorpal> webquint, don't you mean mkfifo(3) then?
13:26:13 <Vorpal> webquint, you will what?
13:26:19 <webquint> Vorpal: i will use mkfifo(3) instead
13:27:09 <Vorpal> webquint, anyway as far as I can see, you need to open the newly created fifo after the mknod/mkfifo call
13:27:30 <Vorpal> webquint, you probably want to use open() not fopen()
13:27:49 <webquint> okay but here's my new quandary
13:28:16 <webquint> i only want one process to read it, but a bunch of processes to write it. will the file system handle the locking for me?
13:28:48 <Vorpal> webquint, I don't know if that is possible
13:29:00 <webquint> if X opens it to read, then Y open it to write, writes, and closes it and then Z opens, writes, and closes, will X read both messages?
13:29:03 <Vorpal> multiple writers sound like it wouldn't be supported
13:29:13 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
13:29:30 <webquint> okay then what would be the best way to do that?
13:29:39 -!- copumpkin has joined.
13:29:40 <Vorpal> webquint, well it depends on what you want
13:30:27 <fizzie> mkfifo equals mknod with S_IFIFO, but I guess it's more clean w.r.t. intent.
13:30:43 <Vorpal> webquint, maybe a multiplexer program handling multiple fifos and then mixing the data up in one output fifo (if you need to work with programs you didn't write for the input and final output this might be easiest)
13:30:53 <Vorpal> webquint, or you might prefer unix sockets
13:31:07 <Vorpal> or maybe even shared memory
13:31:29 <webquint> i want a central "server" process that any process, upon being started, can notify of its existence.
13:31:31 <fizzie> Also, writes of less than PIPE_BUF bytes are required to be atomic, when it comes to multiple concurrent writes.
13:31:46 <webquint> Vorpal: shared memory. how to do that?
13:31:47 <Vorpal> webquint, then the question follows: to what end?
13:31:50 <fizzie> (On Linux I think that's one page, i.e. 4k bytes.)
13:32:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, so you can do multiple writers to a single fifo?
13:32:52 <Vorpal> well then webquint can use that
13:33:07 <webquint> actually, i think i'm required to use that.
13:33:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:33:37 <Vorpal> and then the question follows: required to use what? pipes? shm?
13:33:40 <fizzie> But the writes can get interleaved if they are more than PIPE_BUF bytes and happen at the same time.
13:33:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, right. You have to adjust your data format for that
13:34:40 <Vorpal> webquint, anyway it looked like you needed your fifo reader in non-blocking mode if I understood "<webquint> if X opens it to read, then Y open it to write, writes, and closes it and then Z opens, writes, and closes, will X read both messages?" correctly
13:35:14 <fizzie> I don't see why that would need a non-blocking pipe.
13:35:34 <fizzie> But the FIFO reader needs to not give up on EOF, since I think a pipe reads as EOF if all the write ends are closed at the moment.
13:35:49 <webquint> Vorpal: "All of the data carried in this service must be done in shared memory."
13:36:00 <fizzie> Oh, so it *is* an exercise.
13:36:01 <Vorpal> webquint, if you only want to notify (no payload data) simply sending SIGUSR1 or should would be easier
13:36:09 <Vorpal> webquint, which type of shared memory?
13:37:03 <Vorpal> shm_overview(7) on linux. You could use mmap as well.
13:37:07 -!- quintopia has joined.
13:37:07 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host).
13:37:07 -!- quintopia has joined.
13:37:08 <fizzie> That's a rather strange assignment if they don't tell you.
13:37:15 <Vorpal> there are yet other ways
13:37:39 <fizzie> Wasn't the SysV shared-memory API also included in POSIX?
13:37:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, possibly. I haven't used shared memory much
13:38:18 <Vorpal> webquint, in all cases with any sort of shared memory you will need some sort of locking unless you do cleaver atomic stuff
13:38:31 <Vorpal> cleaver as in "tricky to get right"
13:38:37 <quintopia> Vorpal: http://pastebin.com/uXBDHGXm this is what i am given. suggest a good structure
13:38:38 <fizzie> Cleaver as in meat-cleaver.
13:39:09 <Vorpal> especially since you, no offence meant, seem a bit clueless about these sort of things...
13:39:54 <Vorpal> quintopia, *ahem* It *is* your exercise. Also xen?
13:40:16 <fizzie> Xen's just an example there.
13:40:36 <quintopia> Vorpal: and i'm going to do it myself, ain't i?
13:40:41 <fizzie> Anyway, you could go with POSIX shared memory and message queues, that sounds like a reasonable fit.
13:40:53 <quintopia> how does posix shared memory work?
13:41:01 <Vorpal> quintopia, first: I have no idea about the QoS stuff there.
13:41:14 <fizzie> You create a shared memory object, then map it into the memory space of more than one process.
13:41:18 <fizzie> Then they all see the same things there.
13:41:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about shm with mmap?
13:41:31 <quintopia> and i have to handle all the mutexes myself?
13:41:53 <fizzie> POSIX has semaphores for that; a mutex is just a special case for a semaphore, after all.
13:42:07 <fizzie> But you do need to use them explicitly, yes.
13:42:08 <Vorpal> quintopia, of course you might get away with compare and exchange and such, depending on what you do.
13:42:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, can't you send fds over unix sockets I seem to remember?
13:42:49 <fizzie> As for POSIX message queues, I guess whether you can use those or not depends I guess on how literally you read the "all of the data" part of the assignment.
13:43:18 <quintopia> fizzie: i take it to mean "any data bigger than a uint" :P
13:44:02 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
13:44:12 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
13:44:23 <fizzie> Well, in that case you could use message queues to pass around pointers into in-a-shared-memory-block requests, to get at least a queue abstraction for free.
13:44:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, I know of three shared memory mechanisms in a POSIX environment: shm, mmap with shared flag, the stuff that happens between threads. Especially the first two look like duplicated functionality to me
13:44:59 <quintopia> so message queues i can do with fifos, but what is the interface for creating process-shared memory?
13:45:21 <fizzie> Read that shm_overview man page for that.
13:45:45 <Vorpal> quintopia, message queues are a special thing I *think*
13:46:20 <fizzie> Message queues are special, yes. But you could use a pipe as a message queue as well if you like that more.
13:46:43 <fizzie> Message queues have the priority thing there.
13:47:13 <fizzie> Probably not useful at all for the QoS fairness thing; it's just that it's a priority queue instead of a FIFO queue.
13:47:39 <fizzie> Read mq_overview if you want to use them; but it doesn't really buy you that much over a pipe, I guess.
13:47:46 <quintopia> i was planning on using multiple-queues-per-process to get the fairness-by-slice stuff
13:48:13 <fizzie> It does do the "divide the stream into messages", but if all your messages are of fixed length, that's not much of a win either.
13:48:37 <quintopia> so how does one-reader-many-writers work again?
13:48:58 -!- webquint has quit (Quit: Page closed).
13:50:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, why would you need a pipe at all btw? Isn't shm alone enough?
13:50:47 <quintopia> Vorpal: so that new processes know where to find the shared memory when they start up?
13:50:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not really; you need to notify the server process somehow of a request. It can't exactly keep polling the shared memory for changes.
13:51:00 <Vorpal> hm can't you name shm objects?
13:51:21 <fizzie> You could use a shm object + a POSIX semaphore for signaling, I guess.
13:51:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, you could sleep on a mutex on a shm page, no?
13:51:31 <fizzie> Yes, but that's not "shm alone".
13:51:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is all on top of shm however
13:52:00 <fizzie> I wouldn't start hand-building a mutex, though.
13:52:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, but doesn't posix have that already?
13:52:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway another way if you just want to wake up the server would be sending something like SIGUSR1
13:52:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway you still need a mutex... what if the server is processing another request already when you try to touch the shm?
13:53:04 <fizzie> Signals aren't "shm alone" either; and no, I don't think POSIX has "addess in a shared-memory" style mutexes, just the POSIX semaphores, which are a different object.
13:53:16 <fizzie> Well, yes, that's why I said a shm object alone isn't enough. :p
13:53:45 -!- asiekierka has joined.
13:53:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, but fifos + shm wouldn't help since you could still get the multiple requests at once scenario
13:53:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, also: mutexes are just a special case of semaphores
13:54:24 <fizzie> <fizzie> POSIX has semaphores for that; a mutex is just a special case for a semaphore, after all.
13:54:34 <fizzie> (I was looking for that in the backscroll.)
13:55:07 <fizzie> Anyway, fifos + shm is probably enough if you let the calling process be responsible for managing the shared memory, and use a separate SHM object for each "connection".
13:55:28 <fizzie> It's a bit awkward if the reply will end up needing more space than the client provided, though.
13:56:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm. see output of ipcs(1). I once ran into an issue with something fcgi-ish crashing and leaving stale open objects... (forgot which type)... Found out when I got an error it couldn't create a new one XD... Thus I'm strongly against one shm per connection
13:57:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway you might get away with cmpxchg on an shm page
13:57:42 <quintopia> so here's what i wanted to do: when a process starts, it notifies the server, and the server replies telling it where the shared memory is and where any queues are that it is watching. when a client has a request, it puts it in a queue and includes to some pointer to where it expects the answer. the server constantly loops over all of its queues, responding to the top request in each one by putting its reply in the specified place and then wr
13:58:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: That sounds like a recipe for cpu-wasting polling.
13:58:29 <Vorpal> split a page/number of pages into request slots. Have a byte at the start indicating if they are in use. You could do CAS on that to atomically allocate a request slot
13:58:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, if you limit yourself to linux there are futexes iirc.
13:59:26 <quintopia> does that sound like a reasonable arrangement?
13:59:27 <fizzie> There are, but they're not especially pretty.
13:59:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, and I'm pretty sure modern CPUs support MWAIT which iirc means wait for write on system bus on given address. That might be kernel only though
13:59:34 <fizzie> quintopia: You got cut off at "wr".
13:59:48 <quintopia> iting a "message processed" message back to the requesting process.
14:00:58 <fizzie> If the reply sizes are hard to guess in advance, you might want to make the server responsible for all memory management, so that it just tells the client where (in shared memory) the answer can be found.
14:01:24 <quintopia> eh, i get to decide what the service is
14:01:44 <quintopia> i can fix reply sizes to be...an int :P
14:01:47 <Vorpal> quintopia, also your solution doesn't seem to sleep when there is nothing to do: "the server constantly loops over all of its queues"
14:02:22 <quintopia> Vorpal: good point. should the clients send a sigusr1 also?
14:02:37 <fizzie> That depends on what the queues are built from, really.
14:03:32 <Vorpal> quintopia, there are many ways to do wakeup. signal is one of the easier ones certainly. Not sure what happens when you get a SIGUSR1 while you are processing another though
14:04:21 <fizzie> If the queues are pipes, you can just select()/poll() over the whole set, and easily receive the "these K queues out of the set of N have requests pending" info.
14:04:59 <fizzie> No, the select/poll will already sleep until something happens.
14:05:09 <fizzie> (You can set a timeout though.)
14:05:25 <quintopia> how to do it over the whole set i mean
14:05:34 <Vorpal> IF you can limit yourself to linux it looks like there is a system call to sleep on a specific address
14:05:55 <Vorpal> To reiterate, bare futexes are not intended as an easy-to-use abstraction for end-users. (There is no wrapper function for this system call
14:05:55 <Vorpal> in glibc.) Implementors are expected to be assembly literate and to have read the sources of the futex userspace library referenced below.
14:06:11 <fizzie> quintopia: Well, for poll(2), you just build an array of struct pollfd's, and then call poll() on that. It will wait until something happens or your timeout expires.
14:06:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's why I said "they're not especially pretty".
14:06:35 <Vorpal> "there is no wrapper function" should definitely put you off this. I just think it should be included for completeness
14:08:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, sometimes I have to say that working closer to hardware is nicer. I mean, wouldn't it be nice to just write an interrupt handler into a table and then execute some sort of sleep instruction :P Of course it would be hard to make that work efficiently on a PC in a multitasking environment...
14:09:38 <quintopia> and i could fill the "events" and "revents" fields with request ids.
14:09:49 <fizzie> No, you can't decide those.
14:10:07 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:10:08 <fizzie> You just fill in what sort of events you are looking for in .events, and get a bitmask of which ones happened in .revents.
14:10:38 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
14:12:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, it seems like it would be easier to just use a semaphore and then when you wake up scan the queues and process any requests, then go back waiting. Hopefully this won't miss requests that come in while you are processing
14:12:52 <Vorpal> (as in, if there were any such it would wake you up from waiting on the semaphore right away)
14:13:02 <quintopia> it looks like i set events by ORing together a bunch of these POLLIN POLLOUT POLLPRI etc. things, and revents is set by poll when it returns?
14:13:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, I know this can be done with threading stuff at least
14:13:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't see how that's at all easier than an old-fashioned poll/select when the requests are coming in from file descriptors. Especially with that "hope you don't miss any wakeups" problem.
14:13:51 <fizzie> At least poll will unambiguously say "there's data waiting in this here pipe" to you.
14:14:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, well that bit is solved by poll and such
14:14:18 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:15:17 <Vorpal> so: wakeup, read a number of bytes, process anything you find. go back to poll. The data in the pipe wouldn't matter
14:16:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, still this has the issue of allocating requests in the shared memory... hm
14:16:22 <fizzie> What's this "wakeup" from? I mean, if you "go back to poll", do you mean "wake up from poll"?
14:16:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, wakeup == wakeup from poll telling you there is stuff on the pipe
14:17:29 <fizzie> Nurr, so confused. So if that's what you advocate -- and it's exactly what I said, too -- how exactly is using a semaphore easier?
14:17:41 <quintopia> bah, i don't see any reason to actually use shm anymore. i think i could just run all data through the queues :P
14:18:07 <fizzie> Shared-memory communication can theoretically speaking be a bit more efficient.
14:18:16 <fizzie> No need to copy things via a pipe buffer and so on.
14:20:03 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Nurr, so confused. So if that's what you advocate -- and it's exactly what I said, too -- how exactly is using a semaphore easier? <-- conceptually it is!
14:22:00 <fizzie> Regarding the far-earlier thing about Unix domain sockets and file descriptors, yes, you can pass the latter over the former. (So you could build a system where the Unix domain socket is the way how your client finds the server; and then the server pipe(2)s some unnamed fifos for per-client communications, and sends those over the socket to the client.)
14:22:12 <fizzie> I'm not sure how much that feature is actually used.
14:22:25 <fizzie> Certainly haven't run across any system doing it.
14:22:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm what is the function for sending a fd?
14:23:07 <quintopia> "The only portable use of mknod() is to create a FIFO-special file. If mode is not S_IFIFO or dev is not 0, the behav- ior of mknod() is unspecified."
14:23:09 <fizzie> A shm_open()'d handle is, I think, technically a file descriptor too, so you could pass those too instead of using names.
14:23:15 <quintopia> in other words UDS is not portable
14:23:46 <quintopia> qi probably could get away with using it, though
14:23:51 <Vorpal> but you don't use mknod for unix sockets afaik
14:24:03 <fizzie> Unix domain sockets are created with socket() and bind() and friends, portably.
14:24:28 -!- augur has joined.
14:24:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway I can't find the function for sending a fd
14:24:30 <fizzie> Well, as portably as they go; it's not called "Unix" domain socket for nothing.
14:24:30 <quintopia> what are the advantages of that solution?
14:24:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, if I knew it I would nm -D /usr/bin/* and grep for it
14:25:23 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think it's done with sendmsg() and some of the struct msghdr fields, but I'm not entirely sure how.
14:25:48 <fizzie> That "ancillary data" mechanism.
14:25:51 <quintopia> fizzie: does it make more sense to use the socket to register new clients?
14:26:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, I only see stuff for sending uid there
14:26:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: See SCM_RIGHTS.
14:26:41 <fizzie> "Send or receive a set of open file descriptors from another process."
14:27:09 <Vorpal> oh well, hard to grep for that
14:27:16 <fizzie> quintopia: More sense than to use what?
14:27:43 <quintopia> a multiple-writers fifo with a commonly-known name
14:28:03 <fizzie> Well, the socket does let you send some answers back more easily.
14:28:11 <fizzie> A fifo is strictly one-directional, after all.
14:28:49 <fizzie> If you want to answer with something like "here's the queue just for you, and here's the shared memory object name I want you to use", or whatever.
14:30:05 <quintopia> oh, it didn't occur to me that the client would have anything to send to the server upon appearing
14:30:44 <quintopia> still can't think of anything the client would need to say to the server actually
14:30:51 <variable> Is there a way to *search* the channel logs (without downloading them and running grep)
14:31:24 <variable> You don't have permission to access /~coreyr/ on this server. *sigh*
14:31:31 <fizzie> quintopia: "multiple-writers fifo" == your clients hold the write end; the server can't say anything to the clients via that.
14:32:18 <quintopia> i just thought of some things they might want to tell the server
14:34:09 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
14:37:11 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:37:23 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
14:37:52 <quintopia> so socket with AF_UNIX creates a UDS...seems like datagrams would be sufficient here...it's been so long since i've used these functions O_O
14:41:41 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
14:41:45 <fizzie> Then you usually bind() it with a sockaddr_un structure that has a path name in it.
14:41:54 -!- yorick has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
14:43:31 <quintopia> and then the client connects using connect() with the same path?
14:44:08 <fizzie> Well, with datagram sockets you don't need to connect() them necessarily.
14:46:11 <quintopia> fizzie: it looks like you need to in order to use a socket on the client end? how else would it work?
14:47:14 <fizzie> If it's a SOCK_DGRAM socket you can send without connecting, with sendto or sendmsg with the name field specified.
14:47:33 <fizzie> A connect() call just sets a default target address for it.
14:48:27 <quintopia> and how would the client receive dgrams from it? poll(2)?
14:48:44 <fizzie> Uh, you just recv/read.
14:49:28 <fizzie> Not quite sure how it works with unnamed datagram unix sockets and reply-sending, actually.
14:49:56 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
14:50:43 <fizzie> With stream sockets, your server would listen() + accept() a second socket that would represent a connetion between the client and the server.
14:51:33 <fizzie> If you just send a datagram from an unnamed socket, I'm not sure if it can be replied to.
14:51:44 <quintopia> the goal for the client would be to write to it then immediately block on reading from it. the goal for the server would be to read from it next opportunity it gets, and write back to it.
14:52:42 <fizzie> Yes, but I don't know how you "write back", since you certainly can't just write back to the server socket you've bound to the well-known path.
14:52:55 <fizzie> Since that socket isn't connected to anything.
14:53:22 <quintopia> wharrgarbl. if i were to switch to connection-based sockets, then what's the point of using fifos to begin with? might as well do everything over the socket!
14:54:18 <fizzie> Since you already have a nice bidirectional queue there.
14:54:58 <quintopia> a server like that is usually handled by having a different thread for each connection
14:55:08 <quintopia> which means i could kill two birds with one stone here
14:55:27 <fizzie> Not really; single-threaded select/poll-driven servers are pretty viable too.
14:55:39 <quintopia> is there a pre-built way to do QoS with pthreads?
14:55:59 <quintopia> a nice standard fractional scheduler?
14:56:17 <fizzie> The assignment description makes the server sound pretty single-threaded.
14:57:00 -!- copumpkin has joined.
14:57:00 <quintopia> it might be...but that's up to me isn't it? :P
14:57:09 <fizzie> As for pthreads, I think the thread scheduling is pretty implementation-defined.
14:57:21 <quintopia> i will do it single-threaded if that's the only way to do QoS
15:03:35 <Gregor> SOMALIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
15:04:53 <fizzie> The pthread scheduling functions I can see seem more related to the realtime threads; there's the SCHED_FIFO/SCHED_RR schedulers, but they're I think the same as sched_setscheduler, and for usually-superuser-only realtime-ish threads, not for some sort of inside-a-process fractional scheduling. (Besides, the assignment descrption makes it sound like you have to count requests, not amount of time used to service those requests.)
15:10:01 -!- azaq23 has joined.
15:10:15 <fizzie> quintopia: May I suggest, incidentally, using my IPC library I wrote for an earlier course? It does between-process communication by sending morse code with SIGUSR1 and SIGUSR2. It's the obvious choice when efficiency is at premium.
15:16:09 <Ilari> APNIC down N/A: 16k to Indonesia, 2k+1k to Japan, 3x512k+2x256k to China, 1M+256k to India, 512+256 to Thailand. No IPv6 allocations.
15:16:41 <Ilari> Another day, another ~0.20 burned. :-/
15:17:15 <fizzie> What's the N/A there? (I've wondered this earlier.)
15:17:39 <Ilari> In this case, the figure does not seem to be available yet.
15:18:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:18:24 <Ilari> Ah, just got it: 0.21.
15:19:06 <fizzie> And why it's "No IPv6 allocations" every day?-)
15:19:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, for the more with sigusr1/usr2 do you do some feedback? iirc duplicate signals can merge
15:20:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, I just do it slow enough.
15:20:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, you should send a sighup back for every signal you get. Unless you use FEC?
15:21:04 <fizzie> So's UDP. You can do an app-level protocol for that.
15:21:33 -!- pumpkin has joined.
15:21:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, when you said morse, did it encode using morse or did it just use them for 0/1 ?
15:22:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, udp still does checksum though, no?
15:23:13 <Vorpal> <Gregor> SOMALIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA <-- what about it? (should I check the news today?)
15:23:25 <Gregor> Vorpal: SOMALIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
15:23:25 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
15:23:46 <fizzie> It does the morse code encodings with USR1 = short, USR2 = long, and then timings (pauses) for symbol boundaries.
15:23:46 <Vorpal> Gregor, why Somalia as opposed to, for example, Sudan?
15:23:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes but does it use the morse alphabet I meant
15:24:02 <Gregor> Vorpal: SOMALIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
15:24:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, so you have to base64 or something first to send binary data? XD
15:24:37 <Vorpal> Gregor, I conclude it is just you being random then
15:24:43 <fizzie> Should've used just USR1 with timings tho.
15:25:06 <Gregor> Vorpal: People have already figured out why I'm screaming SOMALIAAAAAAAAAAAA
15:25:35 <Vorpal> Gregor, that is a very generic statement. What set of people?
15:25:55 <Gregor> SOMALI MINISTRY OF POST AND TELECOMMUNICATIOOOOOOOOOOOOOONS
15:26:38 <Sgeo_> Vorpal, people here
15:26:48 <Vorpal> SMPT, If it had worked out to SMTP...
15:28:30 <Sgeo_> Not that type of link
15:28:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:32:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, Gregor's ultimate aim in life is to own libc.so.
15:33:13 <Sgeo_> Oh come on, let him fgure it out himself
15:33:18 <Sgeo_> I gave a crappy hint..
15:33:39 <Phantom_Hoover> You can't really figure it out without having seen it mentioned.
15:36:39 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:36:39 <Gregor> Eh, somebody could figure it out maybe :P
15:38:34 <Gregor> "Hotels and other businesses have hired private security militias to provide protection and ensure the normal course of business." Somalia sounds like an awesome tourist destination.
15:39:53 -!- copumpkin has joined.
15:41:04 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/fwdb3/maybe_an_odd_question_but_what_exactly_are_these/
15:42:40 <Gregor> I'm $AGE, my dad is an accountant and my mom is a teacher, and I've worked in cubicles my whole life. My question is, what ARE these labor jobs? How do you work all day lifting, breaking, cutting, carrying, or building things?
15:42:44 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
15:43:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, that bit is a bit stupid, but I have never actually learnt what such people *do*.
15:54:17 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
15:55:43 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
16:10:59 -!- augur has joined.
16:13:10 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:13:25 <ais523> does anyone here happen to know of any good open source Algol 60 compiles?
16:13:36 <ais523> (I'm guessing no, but hoping...)
16:13:54 <ais523> Gregor: we're trying to work out whether call-by-name Fibonacci is faster in hardware or software
16:14:09 <ais523> (we had it physically running on an FPGA a few minutes ago)
16:14:12 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, Gregor's ultimate aim in life is to own libc.so. <-- oh that. For some reason it seems I tried hard to forget that.. :P
16:14:29 <ais523> and the issue is, where are we going to find a call-by-name programming language for the software test?
16:14:56 <Gregor> ais523: Maybe http://www.gnu.org/software/marst/
16:15:40 <ais523> hmm, I'm not filled with confidence based on the homepage, but I'll likely try it anyway
16:16:21 <Gregor> But beggars can't be choosers :P
16:16:42 <Vorpal> <ais523> (we had it physically running on an FPGA a few minutes ago) <-- I suspect there are ways much more suited to an FPGA to calculate Fibonacci.. Such as a simple iterative algorithm counting up.
16:17:11 <ais523> the point isn't that it's a good way to do fibonacci, because it isn't
16:17:11 <fizzie> I have here somewhere a book about how you manually and mechanically translate an ALGOL-60 program to FORTRAN-II or FORTRAN-IV. But I wouldn't exactly suggest that.
16:17:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, how comes you have such a book!?
16:17:51 <ais523> it's that it's a terrible way to do fibonacci, but it works on hardware anyway even though it's really badly suited to it
16:18:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: Got it for 2 EUR or 5 EUR or something like that from the university library's semi-annual "let's get rid of some old books we have that nobody needs" event.
16:18:41 <fizzie> It's mostly full of computer-model-specific stuff.
16:18:58 <Vorpal> ais523, of course it works on hardware, since software runs on hardware that means it must be possible in hardware if it is possible in software.
16:19:25 -!- ais523_ has joined.
16:19:26 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services).
16:19:29 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
16:19:33 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> ais523, of course it works on hardware, since software runs on hardware that means it must be possible in hardware if it is possible in software.
16:19:50 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, but I mean without cheating by embedding an interp
16:20:41 <ais523> hmm, this seems to work
16:20:45 <ais523> next step: learn algol 60
16:20:55 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
16:21:25 <ais523> it shouldn't be too bad, because I deal with idealized algol, the mathematical idealization of it, all the time
16:21:32 <ais523> all I need to do is learn pointless things like syntax
16:21:53 <Vorpal> ais523, idealized algol? pseudo code?
16:22:07 <ais523> no, it's algol minus all the things that make it practical
16:22:19 <Vorpal> ais523, why do you use that!?
16:22:22 <ais523> basically, lambda calculus, plus a few imperative things like if and while, plus variables
16:22:36 <ais523> and because it's a good model for imperative and functional programming
16:26:26 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:26:45 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:42:09 <ais523> here we go: http://sprunge.us/APhW
16:42:12 <ais523> that didn't take long to write at all
16:42:29 <ais523> the main issue was placing semicolons in the wrong places, because Algol and C use them with different meanings
16:42:55 <ais523> also, the indentation there is weird, I fear that's what GNU indentation style looks like for Algol 60
16:49:13 <ais523> the homepage seems a little out of date, seven years to be precise
16:49:18 <ais523> and the compiler's moved on at least slightly since then
16:49:47 <ais523> more surprisingly, the resulting C, while obviously generated, I didn't find too hard to read, and it corresponds to the Algol program relatively literally
16:50:04 -!- wetneb has joined.
16:56:09 <Gregor> I wonder if it's intended as an Algol->C transition tool more than a Algol compiler that happens to use C.
16:56:52 <ais523> it's full of thunks and that sort of thing
16:58:16 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
17:00:49 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:01:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:03:55 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined.
17:04:16 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:06:35 <quintopia> fizzie: rofl. thanks for the offer. i would if external code were permitted ;P
17:07:16 <Gregor> I notice FFSPG is still on top (where they belong)
17:10:25 -!- azaq23 has joined.
17:10:56 -!- azaq23 has changed nick to 45PABVJ9N.
17:12:22 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:13:12 -!- fungot has quit (*.net *.split).
17:14:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: I tried to find the book and couldn't; weird. I did find two other books from the same place: Seven-Place Values of Trigonometric Functions, compiled by Dr. J. Peters (contains sin and tan in 0.001 degree increments with 7 decimal digits of accuracy, printed in 1942) and Automata Theory: Machines and Languages.
17:15:20 -!- fungot has joined.
17:16:22 <fizzie> The trig-table book has this on a sticker inside the front cover: "This book has been presented to Finland by the Government of the United States of America, under public law 265, 81st congress, as an expression of the friendship and good will which the people of the United States hold for the people of Finland."
17:16:25 <fizzie> So, y'know, thanks for that, people of the United States on-channel.
17:17:27 <Gregor> " During the years 1950-67, Finnish academic libraries received books, periodicals, and other materials, such as microfilm readers, as gifts in excess of $650,000 from the United States. The activity was based on a law passed by the U.S. Congress that had turned Finnish payments on the interest and principal of loans acquired from the United States after World War I into a fund. Out of the fund, grants for travel in the United States were given to Finnish rese
17:17:27 <Gregor> archers and specialists so that they could acquire American scientific and scholarly books as well as technical equipment for Finnish higher education institutions. "
17:18:29 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:18:58 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
17:21:12 -!- fungot has quit (*.net *.split).
17:21:26 <Gregor> tl;dr: US ♥ Finland, Finland ♥ USA
17:21:53 <Gregor> Also US ♥ USA. It's sort of a love triangle.
17:23:14 <quintopia> did not know compose < 3 gave a heart
17:25:35 -!- FireFly has joined.
17:26:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:28:53 <fizzie> Your hearts show up as "?" signs to me; while Gregor's are hearts.
17:29:50 -!- elliott has joined.
17:29:57 <Gregor> (They're ?s to me too, I'm pretty sure they actually are just ?s though :P )
17:31:25 <elliott> oh dear god rodgerthegreat came back
17:32:31 <elliott> 21:19:45 <pikhq> For those confuséd, RodgerTheGreat and I still have an IRC channel in common.
17:33:56 <quintopia> i can see both mine and gregor's hearts...
17:34:10 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
17:34:40 <elliott> quintopia: if it's not utf-8, you are as unto a murderer
17:35:30 <elliott> 05:35:49 <webquint> Vorpal: "All of the data carried in this service must be done in shared memory."
17:35:31 <elliott> 05:36:00 <fizzie> Oh, so it *is* an exercise.
17:35:37 <elliott> i see #esoteric has finally become #homework-help
17:38:19 <elliott> 06:30:51 <variable> Is there a way to *search* the channel logs (without downloading them and running grep)
17:38:22 <elliott> variable: download them and run grep
17:38:32 <quintopia> but this may be because i can't send unicode because i recode it to ISO_8859-1 before sending...
17:38:32 <elliott> variable: use Gregor's hg repository
17:38:36 <elliott> it's only about 70 megabytes
17:38:37 <fizzie> Your hypothesis, it is reasonable.
17:38:58 <quintopia> fizzie: so the way i'd go about using shm is 1) shm_open some commonly known named memory object 2) have each process mmap that object and sem_init a semaphore at the beginning of it 3) have each process sem_wait on that semaphore before writing, and when that returns 0, it means that process has locked the object and can write it?
17:39:07 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
17:39:07 -!- shachaf has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
17:39:08 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
17:39:29 <elliott> 06:44:58 <variable> meh - script + grep works
17:39:33 -!- shachaf has joined.
17:39:35 <elliott> variable: don't use a script, use the hg repo :P
17:39:46 -!- 45PABVJ9N has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer).
17:40:24 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
17:40:24 -!- sebbu has joined.
17:42:16 -!- azaq23 has joined.
17:42:17 -!- azaq23 has quit (Changing host).
17:42:17 -!- azaq23 has joined.
17:43:46 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
17:43:46 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
17:43:46 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
17:46:11 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:46:46 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:47:22 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:47:23 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
17:47:34 -!- Zuu has joined.
17:48:30 <elliott> 09:22:37 <quintopia> no, it's a ? triangle
17:48:30 <elliott> 09:23:00 <quintopia> oh neat
17:48:31 <elliott> 09:23:14 <quintopia> did not know compose < 3 gave a heart
17:48:31 <elliott> 09:23:21 <quintopia> ? compose key
17:48:33 <elliott> Your client, it is the broken.
17:49:14 <quintopia> no. your attitude is broken and i don't appreciate it.
17:49:20 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:49:52 <elliott> quintopia: Your face is broken.
17:50:04 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
17:50:14 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
17:50:15 <quintopia> i can send ♥ just fine when i want to
17:52:21 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:52:21 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:52:27 <elliott> desirable output line width (50 <= nnn <= 255);
17:52:34 <elliott> hmm, marst must be at least partly meant to be a readable translator
17:53:11 -!- fizzie has joined.
17:53:55 -!- cheater00 has joined.
17:54:51 <quintopia> here's a nifty feature i didn't know my client had
17:56:05 -!- comex_ has joined.
17:56:15 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:56:15 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:56:15 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:56:58 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined.
17:57:23 -!- Zuu has joined.
17:57:23 -!- Ilari has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:57:29 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host).
17:57:29 -!- Zuu has joined.
17:57:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
17:57:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host).
17:57:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
17:59:17 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has changed nick to Ilari.
18:01:18 -!- Ilari_ has joined.
18:02:47 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:05:26 -!- Ilari has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:06:00 -!- Ilari_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:06:36 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:07:38 -!- Zuu has joined.
18:09:23 -!- Ilari has joined.
18:11:04 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
18:12:34 -!- iamcal has joined.
18:13:23 -!- Ilari_ has joined.
18:13:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:13:30 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:13:32 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
18:13:32 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:13:33 <elliott> 03:17:40 <fizzie> There was a good brainf*ck debugger somewhere?
18:13:36 <elliott> Ha ha, fizzie is the prude.
18:13:42 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host).
18:13:42 -!- Zuu has joined.
18:13:49 -!- Ilari_ has changed nick to Ilari_antrcomp.
18:13:59 -!- p_q has joined.
18:13:59 -!- p_q has quit (Changing host).
18:13:59 -!- p_q has joined.
18:14:22 <variable> elliott: where is the hg repo ?
18:16:26 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:19:40 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
18:19:41 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
18:19:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:20:07 -!- tswett has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
18:21:53 -!- pingveno has joined.
18:27:21 -!- tswett has joined.
18:32:07 -!- olsner has joined.
18:32:20 <olsner> elliott: are you running forth code yet?
18:33:44 <elliott> olsner: haven't got keyboard input working yet :)
18:33:58 <elliott> olsner: scancode->ascii is going to take quite some bytes unless i'm reaally smart
18:34:19 <olsner> well, just store everything as scancodes? :P
18:34:29 <elliott> olsner: text memory is in ascii
18:34:44 <olsner> hmm, didn't think about that
18:35:13 <elliott> took me a minute to realise too :)
18:35:34 <olsner> getting vga to display scancodes as text may very well be harder than translating scancodes to ascii to start with
18:37:06 -!- wetneb has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
18:37:48 <fizzie> BIOS has the translation table somewhere, most likely, since it needs to offer keyboard handling routines.
18:37:56 <fizzie> Even though you can't call them, you could lift data from there.
18:38:07 <elliott> fizzie: That sounds, er, portable X-D
18:38:26 <fizzie> Well, yes, you just provide different builds for each BIOS vendor/version/build/hotfix combination.
18:38:50 <olsner> maybe you could run the BIOS's keyboard interrupt handler in VM86 mode? :D
18:39:06 <elliott> olsner: getting in and out of vm86 mode seems like it'd take a lot more code than anything else :P
18:39:33 <fizzie> Yes, and you can even quasi-portably perhaps lift the interrupt handler address from the interrupt vector table you see at boot-time.
18:40:01 <fizzie> Alternatively, just use the scancodes as ascii, and tell the user your system is using an "improved" keyboard layout.
18:40:49 <elliott> couldn't i call the bios in real mode?
18:40:51 <olsner> you could have code to switch back and forth between PM and RM and use the bios' read character function
18:40:57 <elliott> that's just flipping the relevant bit of cr0 twice per bios call
18:41:26 <olsner> I think it's not quite that simple, but not THAT much harder
18:41:53 <olsner> the bios is likely to change a lot of segment registers to get its work done
18:42:06 <olsner> (so it's a lot like the original bootstrap switch to PM)
18:48:00 <elliott> olsner: I could easily make "protect" a routine :P
18:48:18 <elliott> olsner: I don't think the BIOS clobbers segments, though
18:48:29 <olsner> clobbers, but restores
18:48:33 <elliott> olsner: then it's no problem
18:48:39 <elliott> people use unreal mode for the express purpose of flat memory with bios calls, after all
18:49:07 <olsner> it can't restore them to the unreal-mode segments
18:49:45 <olsner> because the meaning of loading a value into a segment register changes depending on which mode you're in
18:49:58 <elliott> olsner: but the bios is magical, isn't it?
18:50:04 <elliott> it'll just set the shadow things directly
18:50:41 <olsner> if it reads out the selector "8", stores (address/16), then stores back "8", that now sets the base to 8*16 and the limit to 64k :)
18:51:04 <olsner> no, the bios is not magical :) it's just code
18:52:08 <olsner> it might use unreal mode internally, I guess, or even system-management mode, but I think it still can't possibly tell that the 8 (or whatever) you gave it is supposed to be an offset in a GDT
18:53:30 <olsner> so unless it makes sure not to touch any segment registers at all, bios calls should mess up unreal mode
18:53:51 <elliott> olsner: the bios is magical code!
18:54:06 <elliott> olsner: anyway the whole _point_ of unreal mode is to use the bios
18:54:43 <elliott> "Also, the bigger DOS apps already run in 32-bit mode and just pop back to real mode when needing the BIOS."
18:56:32 <olsner> yeah, actual real mode is simple
18:57:01 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:57:35 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
18:57:43 <elliott> olsner: maybe I'll write a program that takes an {input,output} table and tries to write the shortest-assembling x86 code to map them
18:58:22 <olsner> sounds like fun actually :)
18:58:30 <oerjan> UNDECIDABLE PROBLEM HURF DURF
18:58:38 <elliott> sounds incredibly non-trivial... are there any executable semantics of x86? :-D
18:59:01 <olsner> you can choose a subset of useful instructions and their flags
18:59:04 <elliott> oerjan: turingmachineologist!</j-invariant
18:59:32 <elliott> olsner: I have a feeling US scancodes and ASCII are unrelated enough that it'd basically end up as big as a table
18:59:41 <elliott> mind you, i don't need a full table
18:59:48 <elliott> 0-9, a-z, maybe A-Z, some punctuation
19:00:28 <olsner> I think the scancodes are just whatever bits come out of the keyboard matrix when you press those keys
19:00:56 <elliott> olsner: which is why i doubt there's a convenient table
19:01:07 <elliott> because of qwerty being so random :)
19:01:11 <elliott> maybe if i made the alphabetical keys be alphabetical
19:01:15 <elliott> then digits and alphabet would be fine :P
19:01:18 <elliott> but typing would be a bitch
19:01:38 <fizzie> On the other hand, all the important scan codes are small numbers.
19:01:43 <fizzie> So you don't need a full table.
19:01:51 <olsner> with only a-f and 0-9 you can input hex
19:02:19 <elliott> I don't even need the return key. :p
19:02:20 <fizzie> a-z and A-Z are the same scancodes, anyway.
19:02:37 <elliott> Unfortunately I do need to handle shift for some punctuation...
19:02:42 <elliott> actually i might be able to avoid that
19:03:04 <elliott> . has its own unshifted key :D
19:04:13 <fizzie> If you do scancodes up to space (57), you'll end up getting pretty much everything in the "main block", plus esc.
19:04:39 <olsner> so, 58 bytes of scancode map?
19:04:59 <olsner> are there *any* that map to consecutive ranges of ascii?
19:05:19 <elliott> Well, I don't need tab, or caps lock, or any modifier keys. Backspace would be nice.
19:05:20 <fizzie> The 0 comes after 9 in scan code order.
19:05:47 <elliott> If it really takes about 75 bytes (optimistic guess) to read and translate keyboard input, then that's like 130 bytes for keyboard and protected mode.
19:05:57 <elliott> Leaving only a worrying 380 for, you know, Forth.
19:06:30 <fizzie> The tabs and enters and ctrls like that are interspersed in-between the qwe, asd, zxc rows, annoyingly.
19:07:05 <elliott> fizzie: At least I can just put dud entries in there...
19:07:09 <elliott> What's the first "useful" character, say, 1?
19:07:16 <elliott> i.e. how many bytes can I chop off?
19:07:22 <elliott> I would guess pretty low, alas.
19:08:38 <olsner> must be more than, say, three to make sub foo,n pay off
19:08:56 <elliott> olsner: Well, I expect the F-row comes first.
19:09:16 <olsner> I suspect so too, depends on if it's row-major or column-major?
19:09:37 <elliott> <fizzie> The tabs and enters and ctrls like that are interspersed in-between the qwe, asd, zxc rows, annoyingly.
19:09:57 <fizzie> No, it's ESC first, but then almost instantly digits.
19:10:16 <elliott> *Preferably* the F-keys and the like would just do nothing, but I would also accept random behaviour and crashes if it saves bytes. :p
19:10:17 <fizzie> The Fx keys come after the main block, for some reason.
19:10:40 <olsner> hmm, there are three sets of scancodes though
19:11:05 <olsner> apparently the keyboard controller automatically translates to set 1, but I wonder if that can be turned off :)
19:11:17 <elliott> fizzie: Define "almost" instantly, anyway. :p
19:11:43 <elliott> hmm, I can handle backspace in a few bytes, I think
19:11:56 <elliott> either just decrementing the result string pointer, or restarting the read-word procedure
19:12:03 <Gregor> Backspace is for the weak.
19:12:10 <Gregor> Real men don't make mistaks.
19:12:33 <olsner> maybe you can handle Esc to clear all input and restart
19:12:42 <elliott> Hmmhmm, word names. The alphabet fits into 5 bits.
19:12:57 <elliott> So I could pack 6.4 letters-plus-a-bit into one word.
19:13:18 <elliott> Well, actually, that gives me 6 free characters.
19:13:27 <elliott> Maybe I could do some fancier encoding.
19:13:43 <Gregor> That .4 letters is really valuable.
19:14:17 <fizzie> Quite a lot of the standard Forth words have non-alphabetic names (@, ! and so on) but of course you can just ignore that.
19:14:36 <elliott> Gregor: In reality it's 6 32-choices plus a 4-choice
19:14:40 <Gregor> He still has space for some non-alphabet
19:15:09 <elliott> Like I was saying, if I had some "fancier encoding", I could even make those have less-than-five-bit representations. But that maybe isn't worth it.
19:15:22 <Gregor> Of course, is the process of converting that to/from ASCII for read/display more expensive than storing it that way?
19:15:25 <elliott> In fact, I could make the dword be [two flags][name as 6 x 32-choices].
19:15:34 <elliott> Dunno what the flags would be, though :P
19:15:49 <elliott> Gregor: Well, obviously the name field won't be in ASCII.
19:15:50 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
19:16:02 <elliott> Arguably read-word should return a name thing.
19:16:11 <elliott> But I do need to turn things into ASCII eventually. :p
19:16:19 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, 's my point :P
19:16:47 <elliott> Anyway, what's a Forth dictionary entry again usually?
19:16:51 <olsner> you could just store ascii-64, and 0 will be @
19:16:56 <elliott> Name, pointer to interpreter, plus code?
19:17:03 <elliott> Where "code" is likely to be a list of words or whatnot.
19:17:12 <elliott> (Or in fact valid asm threaded code.)
19:17:29 <elliott> olsner: that wouldn't fit all the stuff I need into 5 bits, I don't think
19:17:41 <Gregor> Also, he does still need NULL completion ...
19:17:49 <Gregor> s/completion/termination/
19:17:58 <Gregor> Or SOMETHING termination anyway.
19:18:06 <Gregor> Since not all words are exactly 6 characters long.
19:18:08 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, I was planning to reserve 0 for termination.
19:18:10 <fizzie> Something-padding, maybe.
19:18:34 <olsner> 6 characters should be enough anyway, so just make every identifier exactly 6 characters long?
19:18:48 <elliott> Alternatively, I could terminate with "a"s.
19:19:01 <elliott> So @ = @a = @aa = @aaa = @aaaa = @aaaaa.
19:19:18 <Gregor> elliott: That's not terrible, but maybe use something a tad more obscure than 'a'
19:19:35 <elliott> Note that this character set doesn't include digits...
19:19:45 <elliott> But OTOH, the only time you really need digits is for actual integer literals.
19:19:47 <olsner> using 'a' for that is plenty obscure I think
19:19:49 <Gregor> Digits are for pussies.
19:19:53 <elliott> And you could consider them as not actually real words.
19:20:04 <elliott> colorForth does this packing-name-into-a-word thing, but it uses Shannon coding or something similarly fancy.
19:20:18 <elliott> Rather than a string of 8-bit characters, colorForth interprets pre-parsed words. A word starts with 4 bits that indicate its color and function - text, number, etc. Then 28 bits of left-justified, Shannon-coded characters, averaging 5.2 bits each. Numbers are stored in binary. Each word occupies 1 or more 32-bit memory locations.
19:20:38 <elliott> Hey, one of those two free bits could be used to indicate "integer".
19:20:45 <elliott> So integer literals would be 30-bit.
19:20:58 <elliott> Where the x is a flag for... something.
19:21:13 <Gregor> olsner: But how will I gag lady gaga?
19:21:27 <elliott> fizzie: Name, interpreter pointer, code -- what else goes into a Forth dictionary entry again?
19:21:30 <elliott> Apart from a "next" pointer. :p
19:21:47 <elliott> (I think I might make my dictionary an actual contiguous array, to avoid all those expensive pointers and whatnot.)
19:22:16 <olsner> Gregor: looks like you were cut off after "But how will I g" ...
19:22:27 <elliott> <Gregor> olsner: But how will I gag lady gaga?
19:22:55 <elliott> The point is that you'd just compare words for equality directly.
19:23:04 <elliott> Just that whenever read-word encounters a space, it "a"s out the rest :P
19:23:43 <Gregor> Which is all fine and dandy, I just think that 'a' isn't sufficiently obscure since I want to gag lady gaga (I actually couldn't find any other ambiguities like this X-P )
19:24:17 <elliott> Well, if I'm doing qwerty, maybe "q" would work as a terminator somehow. :p
19:24:24 <elliott> If I keep letters in qwerty-order.
19:25:04 <Gregor> Keeping letters in QWERTY-order.
19:25:24 <elliott> Gregor: Well, it's how the keyboard sends them X-D
19:25:55 <Gregor> Is that still true? I thought that true layout scancodes had dropped off.
19:26:03 <elliott> fizzie: olsner: CONFIRM/DENY
19:26:10 <elliott> Gregor: Well, it translates them into the "common" scancode format before sending, I think.
19:26:16 <elliott> At least olsner implied that!
19:26:24 <fizzie> It might not be true for an USB HID keyboard, physically speaking.
19:26:44 <Gregor> I am no hardware guy, don't trust me :P
19:26:45 <olsner> USB uses the same scan code set actually
19:26:49 <elliott> Right. But I'm talking ports and stuff.
19:28:34 <fizzie> If you don't mind having only 5 letters per word, you could just store lowest 6 bits of the scancode to make the reading part slightly simpler... but not by much, assuming you actually want to provide keyboard echo for the user.
19:29:00 <Gregor> Either way he's going to have to translate to ASCII, but he doesn't want to store in ASCII.
19:29:20 <Gregor> So storing in 6-bits-o-scancode or 6-bits-o-ASCII is basically equivalent :P
19:29:29 <elliott> fizzie: I'm thinking that I'll make the reading for "hello" go like qqqqqq -> hqqqqq -> heqqqq -> helqqq -> hellqq -> helloq, internally. And I'll just have some kind of "replace-screen-line-with-word".
19:29:33 <elliott> So read-word will basically go:
19:29:39 <elliott> Read char; merge in; replace screen line with word; repeat.
19:29:45 <elliott> That handles keyboard echo and also "output".
19:29:59 <elliott> Actual string output is left as an exercise to the reader, but you will probably be able to do something like
19:30:01 <fizzie> 6 bits of scancode has more reasonable values, I think. But of course 6 bits of ascii-64 is very good too.
19:30:05 <elliott> And maybe it'll do what you want :P
19:30:07 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:30:45 <elliott> What about five bits of ascii-64? :P
19:30:50 <elliott> That requires ASCII translation.
19:30:57 <elliott> Any such trickery should be done with scancodes only :P
19:31:05 <elliott> What's 5 bits of scancode like, apart from terrible?
19:31:13 <elliott> I might be able to do without the letter "m"!!!
19:31:49 <elliott> In which Chuck Moore doesn't understand compression:
19:31:50 <elliott> "Incidently, the resulting bit string is not only compressed, but encrypted. A casual viewer can make no sense of it. Without this description and appropriate software it is not comprehensible. Looking at a dump of the bit string is extremely confusing. I'll prepare some examples of decompressed and compressed code soon."
19:31:55 <fizzie> So you'd get qwertyuiopas from the alphabet.
19:32:49 <elliott> What's the BIOS thing to read a key from the keyboard?
19:32:55 <oerjan> qwertyuiopas sounds like a rather bad disease to catch
19:33:04 <elliott> I'm gonna see if going into unprotected mode will "work" X-P
19:33:53 <fizzie> I'd say "look it up from Ralf Brown's interrupt list", but that thing is so huge finding anything is a chore.
19:34:10 <elliott> fizzie: Well, yes, I'm trying that.
19:34:16 <elliott> /keyboard/ in both the 10 and 13 lists yields naught.
19:34:22 <elliott> I've done this before tho :P
19:34:30 <elliott> *though; what an annoying abbreviation.
19:34:31 <olsner> ffffffffuu, "character bios" has a meaning in the other world
19:34:38 <elliott> olsner: Which other world...
19:34:51 <fizzie> The "bios" category is sensible.
19:34:57 <elliott> "read key with bios" helps a little bit.
19:35:07 <elliott> fizzie: I'm just using an interrupt-number-indexed list with garish background.
19:35:16 <elliott> http://www.ctyme.com/intr/int-10.htm
19:35:17 <elliott> http://www.ctyme.com/intr/int-13.htm
19:35:21 <olsner> wikipedia says there is such a thing as int 16h, function 00h
19:35:33 <elliott> http://www.ctyme.com/intr/int-09.htm
19:35:51 <olsner> 09hIRQ1: Called after every key press and release (as well as during the time when a key is being held)
19:35:55 <elliott> http://www.ctyme.com/intr/rb-1754.htm
19:35:57 <fizzie> I can't read them pages.
19:36:03 <elliott> One wonders if this actually yields ass-key.
19:36:17 <olsner> the IRQ could also be used, of course :D
19:36:37 <olsner> http://webpages.charter.net/danrollins/techhelp/0229.HTM
19:36:41 <fizzie> The get-keystroke gives scan codes.
19:36:46 <fizzie> "The BIOS scan code is usually, but not always, the same as the hardware scan code processed by INT 09. It is the same for ASCII keystrokes and most unshifted special keys (F-keys, arrow keys, etc.), but differs for shifted special keys."
19:36:52 <elliott> fizzie: I swear there's a convenient BIOS ass-key function for this ...
19:37:14 <olsner> That page says: AL ASCII character code or extended ASCII keystroke
19:37:27 <elliott> ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
19:38:11 <elliott> I do remember a biographies function that did it rather than going straight to the keybored.
19:38:15 <elliott> (biographies = BIOS. Obviously.)
19:38:44 <elliott> There I go again with my funny spe-lungs.
19:39:47 <olsner> I wonder if 16h may depend on IRQ1 being serviced
19:41:07 <elliott> Well, it waits for my key then reboots. :-)
19:41:08 <olsner> ~1 should also work though, nasm evaluates constant expressions
19:41:24 <elliott> Except in Bochs it waits for my key and... wait, what
19:41:36 <elliott> OK, it's HLTing and complaining that I'm hlting, but I "sti" before doing the interrupt.
19:41:39 <elliott> WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THIS.
19:42:41 <elliott> 03.01.21:02:12:04 <fizzie> ah, re befunge, just wrote an interpreter with forth. so our unofficial befunge-interpreters-in-obsolete-but-non-esoteric-languages project now has forth, fortran-77, algol-60, plus few less interesting ones. maybe should do cobol next.
19:42:41 <elliott> 03.01.21:02:13:12 <lament> fizzie: go to #forth and say it's obsolete, i dare you
19:43:12 <olsner> BEGIN ESOTERIC-SECTION.
19:43:39 <elliott> 04.02.10:16:14:35 <fizzie> btw, what languages do we have befunge interpreters in? I know of implementations in C, javascript, algol (algol60?), fortran (two, actually) and forth, plus two unfinished ones (sed, 6502-assembler-for-8bit-nes-nintendo). any others?
19:43:39 <elliott> 04.05.27:08:07:58 <fizzie> kinda. oh, and it includes a "system information" command, which has the side-effect (can't remember if this was in the standard) that you can use it like the PICK word from forth.
19:43:44 <elliott> fizzie: Funge-98, what is even that!
19:44:29 <olsner> oh, the sed one is unfinished? sed needs more fun stuff
19:44:45 <fizzie> olsner: Well, *my* sed one is unfinished; there might well be a finished one.
19:50:34 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:04:34 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:11:22 <elliott> olsner: If I go into protected mode and don't set up interrupt handlers, then deprotect and do "sti", it's still gonna fail on any interrupt, right?
20:11:27 <elliott> Because the "default" interrupt handler is GONE FOREVER
20:12:15 <olsner> hmm, no, I think the real-mode interrupt handlers are at a fixed address (like 0)
20:12:31 <olsner> the vectors anyway, not the handlers
20:13:25 <elliott> olsner: well I say this because
20:13:40 <elliott> [deprotect cr0] sti; xor ah, ah; int 16h; cli; [protect cr0] does this in bochs:
20:13:48 <olsner> hmm, no, there is an IDTR, dunno what happens to that register when you switch modes :)
20:13:53 <elliott> it starts up, hangs, bochs warns about "omg hlt when blah blah!! it will never finished!"
20:17:26 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
20:17:45 <olsner> based on the information I have, this all points to something having been done wrong
20:18:36 <elliott> olsner: I suspect that the bios calls HLT as part of its keyboard code
20:18:59 <elliott> olsner: And that the interrupts don't get fixed by disabling protection.
20:21:26 <olsner> I think you should add a couple of long calls to reset cs to/from real-mode
20:22:34 <elliott> olsner: Why, can't I use the bios from a 32-bit cs? :)
20:22:35 <olsner> dunno if that's the problem, but that could cause the incoming keyboard interrupt to mess things up instead of neatly returning to after the hlt
20:22:36 <Ilari> Looking at number of diffrent blocks allocated by APNIC in December-Feburary: 8M: 1 (8M), 4M: 1 (4M), 2M: 4 (8M), 1M: 16 (16M), 512k: 16 (8M), 256k: 28 (7M), 128k: 25 (3.13M), 64k: 48 (3M), 32k: 22 (0.69M), 16k: 33 (0.52M), 8k: 42 (0.33M), 4k: 50 (0.20M), 2k: 63 (0.12M), 1k: 85 (0.08M), 512: 20 (0.01M), 256: 58 (0.01M).
20:22:54 <olsner> (the hlt presumably in the bios' int 16h)
20:23:06 <olsner> (which is probably waiting for IRQ1)
20:23:37 <elliott> Added some long jmps, still doesn't work :(
20:23:46 <elliott> olsner: I swear that interrupts won't work after deprotecting :P
20:24:47 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:25:00 <elliott> olsner: Because going into protected mode gets rid of all that magical interrupt goodness?
20:25:10 <elliott> And I doubt flicking cr0 back adds the magic again.
20:25:59 <olsner> you could try a lidtr to explicitly reset back to the real-mode interrupt vectors
20:26:17 <elliott> olsner: yeah, but what are the vectors?
20:26:59 <olsner> should be at 0, since 8086 didn't even support moving them
20:27:20 <elliott> assuming it's dd, i forget lidtr..
20:27:47 <olsner> ... though I don't think it should be necessary at all
20:28:09 <elliott> still reboots even with that :)
20:28:38 <elliott> "getHostMemAddr vetoed direct read, pAddr=0x000a2722"
20:28:45 <elliott> *"prefetch: getHostMemAdrr
20:29:34 <elliott> gdtr:dw gdt_end-gdt-1 ; limit
20:29:37 <elliott> it doesn't like something there, at least
20:29:42 <elliott> idtr is just one val right?
20:29:45 <olsner> unfortunately, none of this new information changes my previous theory
20:30:03 <olsner> the idt has a limit, at least in protected mode
20:30:15 <elliott> same error though, even with that idt
20:43:57 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:44:49 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:48:43 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:50:18 -!- Patashu has joined.
20:51:57 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:55:12 <fizzie> Isn't the IDT descriptor the same 6-byte thing than the GDT; two bytes for the limit and four for the base? Which would mean dw 0, dd 0 makes a zero-size limit and any interrupt would then go outside it. (But I don't really know if the IDT is checked for real-mode interrupts.)
20:55:52 <fizzie> Oh, it does in fact check IDT in real mode.
20:56:20 <fizzie> And as far as I can tell it only uses the base address.
20:56:48 <fizzie> So dw 0, dd 0 should be reasonable. But if you don't relocate it anywhere with an earlier LIDT, I suppose it shouldn't move anyway.
21:00:00 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 .).
21:00:28 <fizzie> Someone's example code does do LIDT [RealModeIDT] with RealModeIDT: dw 0x03ff, dd 0x0000.
21:01:02 <elliott> fizzie: Perhaps my reboot is for Other Reaz0ns.
21:01:09 <elliott> Does the keyboard thing take parameters? :P
21:01:32 <olsner> not according to that page I found at least
21:01:54 <fizzie> I don't think it should, no. Well, except for the AH = 00h function-selector part.
21:02:05 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:02:06 <olsner> elliott: you should probably do a 'show int' before going into the bios
21:02:13 <olsner> to print interrupts that happen
21:02:20 <elliott> olsner: er, is that an instruction or something?
21:02:26 <elliott> i haven't used bochs bugger
21:06:26 <fizzie> What did your code look like?
21:06:57 <fizzie> After flipping the bit in CR0, you do need at least that far jump, I believe.
21:07:32 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:09:25 <fizzie> Thwarting them, I'd guess.
21:09:51 <fizzie> The thwarthog: bane of everyone with goals.
21:11:18 <fizzie> Sounds like something that drops rares.
21:13:50 <fizzie> About 2,500 results (0.23 seconds); if it's a term, it's not a very wide one, I guess.
21:14:10 <fizzie> "wich monsters drops rares ??? hey can anybody telle ma about all drops possible out of monsters in looting plz :D :D :)"
21:17:03 <olsner> you should do like the guy in HHGG who has to insult every living being in the universe, visit every site on the internet and ask that question
21:17:18 <elliott> doesn't have to, just wants to
21:18:02 <olsner> seemed like an obsession to me, but I guess it is voluntary
21:19:36 <fizzie> Well, he wanted a project to keep himself busy.
21:19:42 <Vorpal> <olsner> Thwarthog Goalsbane <-- sounds like a boss in some sort of parody game
21:20:02 <fizzie> I could imagine a Thwarthog Goalsbane high-level monster in Munchkin.
21:20:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, isn't munchkin rather parody though? ;P
21:22:17 <pikhq> So. The USA is an officially secular state and has "In God We Trust" on its currency. The UK is an officially Christian state and has Darwin on the £10 note...
21:22:40 <pikhq> I get the feeling that a state religion isn't necessarily a bad thing. :P
21:23:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, I get the feeling that state religion is pretty much disconnected for actual state of affairs :P
21:23:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, for your conclusion to be valid I think you need some more evidence
21:23:26 <Vorpal> like how it works in other countries.
21:23:51 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, yes, I'm aware that in the UK, like *most* European countries with a state religion, only has the state mandated religion in existence for hysterical raisins...
21:24:03 <elliott> doesn't sweden have state religion
21:24:36 -!- uniqanomaly has quit (Quit: uniqanomaly).
21:24:41 <Vorpal> Sweden has no official state religion (since a number of years. 15? 20? something like that) and we have... no god mentions on our money
21:25:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, but yes hysterical raisins indeed
21:25:13 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:25:17 <pikhq> elliott: In 2000 the Church of Sweden ceased to be the state church.
21:26:28 <fizzie> I think officially the Evangelical-Lutheran Church of Finland is not a "state church" either, but I think it still enjoys some special privilege bits.
21:27:23 <fizzie> "The main Lutheran and Orthodox churches are constitutional national churches of Finland with special roles in ceremonies ..."
21:27:40 <fizzie> I guess they still count since they have special mentions in some laws here and there.
21:27:45 <pikhq> Finland has *two* state churches, then.
21:27:47 <Zwaarddijk> in that if the king wants to convert from lutheranism, he must abdicate
21:27:56 <Vorpal> I think there is some special privilege related to being able to perform marriages that only the church has over here
21:28:09 <Vorpal> so for other religions you need to get a non-religious marriage
21:28:19 <Zwaarddijk> Vorpal: captains of ships have that right too, here, as do certain secular officials
21:28:20 <pikhq> Zwaarddijk: And if you get a non-Lutheran king in the first place?
21:28:24 <oerjan> Ilari: http://blog.tanyakhovanova.com/?p=311 seems connected to your recent string subsequence stuff
21:28:30 <olsner> Zwaarddijk: we're aiming to go from "a bit odd" to "odd" within the next 3-year period
21:28:30 <Vorpal> <Zwaarddijk> in that if the king wants to convert from lutheranism, he must abdicate <-- is that still the case? heh
21:28:30 <Zwaarddijk> pikhq: that can't happen in Sweden (I'm not Swedish)
21:28:49 <pikhq> That's bullshit. (not the claim itself, the state of affairs)
21:29:22 <pikhq> Not that it matters *too* much; the monarch is a mere symbol of the state at this point, anyways.
21:29:38 <olsner> hmm, I guess that means some portion of the king's tax-paid allowance is guaranteed to go to church tax
21:29:45 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:29:46 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes indeed. Besides our king is dyslexic and what not.
21:30:23 <pikhq> Oh, hah. The monarch isn't required to be *Lutheran*. Any Protestant denomination will do.
21:31:23 <olsner> pikhq: does that include the church of the flying *protestant* spaghetti monster?
21:31:27 -!- SimonRC has joined.
21:31:32 <oerjan> Vorpal: norway is in the process of abolishing our state church, however the king himself insisted that they keep his requirement to belong to it in the constitution
21:31:44 <Zwaarddijk> there's actually an odd thing in Finnish public broadcast legislation re: that
21:32:09 <Vorpal> <Zwaarddijk> there's actually an odd thing in Finnish public broadcast legislation re: that <-- oh?
21:32:15 <fizzie> pikhq: We have a new-ish "Freedom of Religion Act" (from 2003; I mean, we had one before, but this is the latest revision) which says basically that anyone can belong to any "religious organization" that they wish, and that a "religious organization" is either the Evangelical-Lutheran or the Orthodox Church, or any organization registered according to law X; and that the two official churches have some legislation controlling how they operate.
21:32:32 <pikhq> Argh, no, not really. "Art. 4. In accordance with the express provision of Article 2 of the Instrument of Government of 1809 that The King shall always profess the pure evangelical faith, as adopted and explained in the unaltered Confession of Augsburg and in the Resolution of the Uppsala Meeting of the year 1593, princes and princesses of the Royal House shall be brought up in that same faith and within the Realm. Any member of the Royal Fami
21:32:57 <pikhq> (translated version of the "Successionsordningen", on Wikisource)
21:33:01 <Zwaarddijk> Vorpal: one may not broadcast religious services from non-trinitarian congregations as tohugh they were services.
21:33:29 <Zwaarddijk> that is, there's a specific concept of televised service, which only extends to trinitarian christians :|
21:33:57 <Zwaarddijk> pikhq: pure evangelical faith is clearly lutheranism there.
21:34:00 <oerjan> poor members of the royal famine
21:34:05 <pikhq> Zwaarddijk: Yeah, quite clearly.
21:34:15 <pikhq> You Europeans really need to go further with this whole seperation of church and state thing.
21:34:24 <Zwaarddijk> pikhq: actually, I think it's done us a world of good
21:34:45 <pikhq> And meanwhile Americans need to get the concept *beaten into their freaking head over and over again*.
21:34:50 <Vorpal> <pikhq> (translated version of the "Successionsordningen", on Wikisource) <-- they have a translated version of that?
21:35:02 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Act_of_Succession_of_Sweden
21:35:09 <Zwaarddijk> pikhq: see, this way, the state has had an option of influencing the churches (by making sure to require that the clergy has reasonable education, etc)
21:35:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, ... why on earth
21:35:25 <pikhq> Oh, it's apparently the official translation by the Swedishgovernment.
21:35:32 <pikhq> Erm, add space as appropriate.
21:35:38 <Zwaarddijk> tht way, I think the european state churches (at least in northern europe) have helped making europe relatively secular
21:35:59 <Zwaarddijk> this way, also, we've gotten spared from idiots like ... uneducated clergymen arguing against interracial marriage and such
21:36:20 <pikhq> Zwaarddijk: The issue is that you guys have gotten rid of insane religiosity without getting rid of actual church-state ties.
21:36:29 <oerjan> some of our clergymen have no trouble arguing against gay marriage, mind you
21:36:32 <pikhq> Zwaarddijk: And we've gotten rid of actual church-state ties without getting rid of insane religiosity.
21:36:47 <Zwaarddijk> pikhq: yes, and I much prefer the previous alternative there
21:36:57 <olsner> oh, that was probably a reply to oerjan?
21:37:03 <pikhq> And people don't even accept the *existence* of seperation of church and state here.
21:37:13 <pikhq> *Literally do not believe that that is how things work*.
21:37:34 <Zwaarddijk> if we now got rid of the church-state ties in a badly thought out way, the chances of greater amounts of stupid appearing in the majority church is overwhelming
21:37:49 <Zwaarddijk> such stupid does exist in the non-state-churches, like the baptists and the free lutherans and such
21:41:41 <pikhq> I still find it incredible that people in the US do not merely advocate against the seperation of church and state, but advocate that that *is not even the state of affairs*.
21:43:16 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:43:30 <fizzie> Zwaarddijk: Just out of curiosity, can you provide citations for the religious service broadcast thing. The obvious search ("jumalanpalvelus*") in Finlex doesn't really hit anything relevant.
21:44:00 <Zwaarddijk> maybe it's in yles charter or somesuhc?
21:45:53 <Zwaarddijk> pikhq: the only churches with the relevant size in the US to be able to make any claim for state-church status would be like southern baptists and the catholics, no?
21:46:23 <Zwaarddijk> wonder how well the catholics gaining that status would go over with the protestants :)
21:50:01 <variable> elliott: where is the hg repo ?
21:50:50 <pikhq> Zwaarddijk: You'd probably only get state churches for individual states.
21:51:40 <variable> pikhq: people believe what they want is what is and what was. This is well known in cognitive psychology
21:54:05 <pikhq> Zwaarddijk: Aside from an ability for sufficiently large religious organizations to be able to have a church tax taken out, there is not a state church in Germany.
21:54:49 -!- Behold has joined.
21:55:05 <fizzie> They did have that "blasphemy" bit in the criminal code, but in 1998 the section was renamed to "disturbance of religious peace"; it still does mention "God", but also in the same sentence "or other similar religious observances" or some-such.
21:55:33 <pikhq> Seems that the seperation of church and state was first enacted in the Weimar Republic.
21:57:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:59:21 <Zwaarddijk> oh right, there's one ~federation-like thingy with state churches, how could I forget
22:02:03 -!- mileva has joined.
22:02:48 * variable finds it silly that we still have 'god' in our pledge of allegiance - but meh
22:08:27 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:08:41 <pikhq> variable: People use that as reasoning that this is a Christian nation and that as such we should make laws based on their interpretation of Christianity.
22:09:20 <variable> pikhq: don't get me started on logical fallacies by theists.
22:09:30 <variable> (unless of course you care :-])
22:09:46 <pikhq> variable: As a recent convert to atheism, I'm still at the point where I give a crap! :P
22:13:19 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:15:50 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:15:51 <mileva> hmm... i'have to learn it
22:18:13 <variable> Mathnerd314: website isn't loading
22:25:39 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:27:35 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:30:21 -!- p_q has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
22:31:28 <Phantom___Hoover> <pikhq> variable: As a recent convert to atheism, I'm still at the point where I give a crap! :P ← really?
22:31:59 <mileva> agnosticum vitae forman milos
22:35:25 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: Really what
22:36:25 <Zwaarddijk> variable: I find the entire contect of a pledge of allegiance (allegiance to a cloth design, even) to be rther silly
22:37:14 <Phantom___Hoover> If you listed the things about the US that everyone else finds silly you'd be there all day.
22:37:27 <Zwaarddijk> how does one violate such an allegiance?
22:37:30 <mileva> so, it's maybe like a fish as the science, kindof bycicle usefull to birds ?
22:37:40 <oerjan> mileva: are you human?
22:39:03 <oerjan> the evidence isn't quite convincing yet...
22:39:20 <mileva> maybe i do not understud all :(
22:39:24 -!- fungot has joined.
22:39:39 <fizzie> (Something just reminded me of fungot.)
22:39:40 <fungot> fizzie: that is just a pair of trousers by sewing. :p
22:42:54 <pikhq> Phantom___Hoover: ?
22:43:51 <mileva> i'm pretty shure, i do not undertud the entire world :)
22:44:44 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to Alex_Megaroide.
22:45:56 <mileva> turing is an apple's ghost
22:46:03 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
22:47:05 <mileva> yep, like G.Tell on his son's head ?
22:47:33 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
22:47:46 <pikhq> oerjan: じゃ、教えろうね。僕は人間で生まれたので、人間だと思う。
22:50:29 <mileva> soio, tokyo hostel, myo-cardio bouldu buldou fidjii
22:50:44 <oerjan> pikhq: なぜあなたは、あなたが今の人間だと思う人が生まれた私に言うのですか？
22:50:57 <pikhq> oerjan: That. Doesn't. Parse.
22:51:58 <pikhq> The Japanese you pasted was... Unparsable.
22:52:24 <oerjan> pikhq: Oh, i pasted was unparsable.
22:52:47 <pikhq> "Why did you, you now-human think person birth I to said?"
22:53:14 <oerjan> pikhq: Oh, i i nowhuman think person birth you to said.
22:59:27 -!- mileva has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:15:38 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:20:57 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:34:45 <Sgeo> IokeHurricane is spamming #ioke
23:36:09 <elliott> fizzie: olsner: I bet what you're thinking is, "I really want to look at elliott's terrible asm and debug it".
23:46:17 -!- cheater- has joined.
23:49:18 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:59:59 <elliott> olsner: the long jump won't work in real mode
00:00:04 <elliott> because the gdt is still active!
00:00:28 <elliott> "I/O APIC read at address 0xfec008fe spans 32-bit boundary !"
00:02:20 <oerjan> cheater-: um i'm pretty sure it is
00:02:52 <oerjan> for one thing, i think it has equivalents to all of :()^
00:04:21 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
00:05:40 <oerjan> cheater-: you can read the irc logs from yesterday or was it the day before, i haven't finished the wiki markup yet
00:05:57 <oerjan> (also the wiki section on the minsky machine)
00:06:08 <elliott> i would totally mention something involving the words cheater and feed but it'd be cliche and i'm a conversational hipster
00:06:27 <elliott> or a conservational hipster. man, I help to save this totally obscure animal, you've probably never heard of it.
00:06:47 <oerjan> *the wiki section in underload
00:07:30 <oerjan> elliott: ok so postscript being tc is pretty obvious, it has many more commands than that
00:07:42 <elliott> oerjan: err, i was just talking about the fact that cheater- is a troll.
00:07:49 <elliott> postscript being tc is very obvious
00:07:53 <elliott> especially as a lot of anagolfers use it :)
00:07:55 <oerjan> but it _is_ at base pretty much a concatenative language like underload
00:08:07 <cheater-> that must be about some other person using your nick :D
00:08:26 <elliott> yeah oerjan is really stupid obviously.
00:08:28 <elliott> that's what i know oerjan for.
00:10:14 <oerjan> elliott: well you never know, maybe i do something that puts him in so much awe that he repents and stops trolling
00:10:35 <oerjan> and starts genetically engineering airborne pork instead
00:10:40 <elliott> oerjan: you realise saying that will make him not shut up for hours :)
00:11:26 <cheater-> oerjan: it's not obvious to me
00:11:40 <cheater-> oerjan: we were talking in -blah about postscript and i was wondering if it's tc
00:11:58 <elliott> ok something is very wrong here.
00:11:59 <cheater-> and i thought i remembered it was, but decided to ask here for confirmation and for making conversation
00:12:27 <cheater-> yes, tkae a shower elliott, we can cut the air with a cheese knife :X
00:13:31 <cheater-> oerjan: so how did you have the idea to use the minsky machine?
00:13:43 <cheater-> was it your first approach or just a consecutive one?
00:14:55 <elliott> oerjan: have fun for the next N hours
00:15:03 <elliott> i sure won't be, fucking bios :(
00:16:56 <oerjan> ~ = exch, ! = pop, : = dup, ! = exec, = = S, those are the commands i find in http://www.math.ubc.ca/~cass/courses/ps.html that correspond to underload. i also think { = ( and } = ).
00:17:44 <oerjan> cheater-: i started with the turing machines, then when i got down to trying !:()^ i realized i didn't have enough to get that but a minsky machine worked
00:17:53 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:18:02 <oerjan> (since it only needs one stack symbol)
00:18:08 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:18:20 <cheater-> so do you see a minsky machine as a simpler to implement turing machine?
00:19:18 <elliott> turing machines are sooo much easier
00:19:27 <elliott> basic application of logic oerjan
00:19:48 <cheater-> we're having a private conversation here
00:20:35 <cheater-> oerjan: now what is the shortest proof that you can come up with? o_o
00:21:35 <oerjan> i think underload a = [ exch ] essentially
00:21:54 <cheater-> well he's come up with the minimal system so far
00:22:04 <cheater-> now he needs the minimal proof of that minimal system :D
00:23:21 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
00:23:25 <cheater-> i guess implementing a lang based on that?
00:25:02 <oerjan> the implementation is already done, it's called underload.
00:25:10 <oerjan> just don't use four of the commands.
00:25:47 <oerjan> alternatively you can use postscript, joy or FALSE.
00:26:21 <oerjan> those four commands are pretty common in functional concatenative languages
00:26:25 <elliott> hmm, what's joy's equivalent of a?
00:26:47 <oerjan> :()^ are dup [] i, though
00:27:06 <cheater-> oerjan: but what about something that takes a well-supported language and compiles it down to :()^?
00:28:22 <oerjan> . and , are going to be a bitch
00:28:39 <oerjan> not to mention that minsky machines have exponential overhead
00:29:11 -!- azaq23 has joined.
00:31:39 -!- copumpkin has joined.
00:33:01 <oerjan> elliott: i don't know many joy commands, but it should be doable with map...
00:33:42 <elliott> oerjan: er you mean list map?
00:33:47 <elliott> like treating quotations as lists?
00:33:52 <elliott> oerjan: if you have that it's just [] cons...
00:34:04 <oerjan> elliott: you were talking about joy
00:34:12 <elliott> oerjan: if you have that it's just [] cons...
00:34:40 <oerjan> i didn't know joy had cons
00:34:52 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
00:35:01 <elliott> oerjan: what kind of language has lists and no cons?
00:35:35 <Sgeo> I think maybe I like Fancy
00:40:03 <Zwaarddijk> is there any known automaton that, with finite space is known to be weaker than a turing macine with finite space, but thiss distinction magically disappears when there's infinite space?
00:42:42 <elliott> define weaker than a turing machine with finite space?
00:43:54 <elliott> Oh dear god not again http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Joy_(programming_language)_(2nd_nomination)
00:46:14 <Zwaarddijk> well, turing machines can reject/accept any recursively enumerable language
00:47:01 <Zwaarddijk> but for a finite tape we get what's called a decider, no?
00:47:06 * elliott lets oerjan handle this one ;D
00:47:24 <oerjan> it's not ambiguous, it's hideously ambiguous.
00:48:15 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
00:48:24 <Mathnerd314> Zwaarddijk: turing machines accept recursively enumerable languages, and loop infinitely on non-examples of the language
00:50:26 <Zwaarddijk> so anyways, a machine that w/ finite tape accepts context-free grammars (or maybe something inbetween CFG and R, or between R and RE), but with infinite tape accepts RE
00:53:30 <Ilari> With finite tape, it can at most decide (some subset of) regular languages.
00:54:04 <Ilari> And even the weakest language classes above regular can require unbounded memory to recognize.
00:55:20 <Zwaarddijk> so ok, is there any machine that accepts CFG or even just a slighlty smaller set of langs than R with finite tape, but RE with infinite tape?
00:56:14 <quintopia> the question doesn't make sense :/
00:57:06 <quintopia> you're asking about a single TM...designed to recognize two different languages?
00:57:43 <Zwaarddijk> turing machines recognize different languages depending on whether they've got finite or infinite tapes
00:58:05 <quintopia> a specific TM will be designed to recognize a particular language
00:58:19 <quintopia> i mean, all you're doing is changing the tape length
00:58:35 <Zwaarddijk> this still doesn't make the question make no sense
00:58:40 <quintopia> which means you aren't changing the language it is designed to recognize...
00:59:22 <Zwaarddijk> should I rephrase the question like this:
00:59:42 <Ilari> Well, with finite memory and even weakest non-regular languages, you can't even recognize all "yes" cases.
00:59:43 <Zwaarddijk> does infinite tape make bigger difference for recognizeable languages for some weaker machine
01:00:20 <Ilari> Or, you could have algorithm that always says "yes" if it belongs to the language, but might say "yes" even if it doesn't.
01:00:45 <quintopia> Ilari: i know such a machine. Algorithm: for all input, accept.
01:01:06 <Zwaarddijk> that algorithm has a ratehr fantastic running time
01:01:31 <Ilari> Or actually, machine that could return 3 outputs: Yes, No or Maybe
01:02:17 <Ilari> For some languages, one needs insanely long output to overwhelm even very quite low amount of memor available.
01:04:18 <Ilari> Just consider a^n b^n and how much string length it takes to overwhelm a counter of given length.
01:06:14 <Ilari> Then there are languages that are recursive but may require insane amounts of memory even for very short strings.
01:10:37 -!- zzo38 has joined.
01:11:04 -!- zzo38 has set topic: :()^ is TURING COMPLETE! EVERYBODY PARTY!!!! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
01:12:49 -!- quintopia has set topic: :()^ is TURING COMPLETE! EVERYBODY PARTY!!!!!| http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
01:13:20 <elliott> Hey quintopia, wanna debug my assembly!
01:13:59 -!- zzo38 has set topic: :()^ is TURING COMPLETE! EVERYBODY PARTY???? | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
01:14:59 <elliott> why is this all the fucked. it's bads.
01:15:32 <elliott> Adding "int 99" does something.
01:16:19 <Sgeo> I feel torn between Fancy and Ruby. Fancy is like a fixed Ruby with keyword-based methods. But Ruby is popular
01:20:07 <pikhq> So's stupid. Your point?
01:20:32 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
01:20:54 <elliott> pikhq: Can we just collectively agree to not feed Sgeo's insane languagebation?
01:20:57 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
01:21:43 <Sgeo> Are Fancy's fixes and other niceties worth devoting time into Fancy that I'd otherwise spend in Ruby?
01:23:12 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't know.
01:23:34 <zzo38> (I did look it up in Wikipedia and still I don't know)
01:27:08 <pikhq> elliott: I DESPISE IT
01:27:12 <elliott> pikhq: DO YOU LIKE DEBUGGING IT
01:27:21 <pikhq> elliott: THATS WHAT I DESPISE ABOUT IT
01:27:35 <elliott> pikhq: SO YOU WANT TO DEBUG MY 512-BYTE FORTH INTERP'S KEYBOARD HANDLING CODE?
01:28:41 <elliott> pikhq: WHY ARE YOU AN EVIL
01:29:44 <pikhq> Because I'm an atheist.
01:29:54 <pikhq> Now if you'll excuse me, I need to roast some babies.
01:30:14 <elliott> make sure to rape them first, it brings out the juice
01:30:45 <elliott> and convert some innocent christians to evil
01:32:36 -!- sftp has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
01:33:05 -!- sftp has joined.
01:44:04 -!- sftp has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
01:45:33 -!- sftp has joined.
01:49:11 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:49:17 -!- pikhq has joined.
01:55:54 <variable> psychoceramics -> study of crackpots :-)
02:08:49 <Ilari> Haha... A typical timeline to
02:09:20 <Ilari> deployment might be: Support in 20% of implementations (open source helps at this stage): X.509: Never
02:34:06 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:52:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
02:54:52 -!- Sgeo has joined.
02:56:39 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:56:44 -!- elliott_ has joined.
03:14:01 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
03:14:10 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
03:19:39 <Lymia> I just had an idea.
03:19:45 <Lymia> A programming language who's encoding is an MIDI file.
03:19:58 <Lymia> In essence, a musical programming language.
03:20:44 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to MonadsSuck.
03:21:23 <variable> Lymia: that sounds interesting
03:22:45 <Lymia> In it, "syntax" is carried by relative pitch, or something similar, and so, a program can be made musical.
03:23:02 <zzo38> There are a few of that already in esolangs, but you can make up a new one if you want to.
03:23:23 <Lymia> If you want to down the evil path, make failure at harmony, etc an compiler error.
03:23:32 <zzo38> MonadsSuck: Did you look it up in Wikipedia?
03:24:42 <Lymia> Make useful programs semi-musical.
03:24:50 <Lymia> Make music execute, but in an excessively useless way.
03:25:10 <MonadsSuck> too many functors and natural transformations
03:25:21 -!- MonadsSuck has changed nick to copumpkin.
04:01:03 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:04:01 <elliott_> <Lymia> A programming language who's encoding is an MIDI file.
04:08:44 <Lymia> Not /exactly/ what I had in mind.
04:08:59 <Lymia> Less of a programming language with an MIDI encoding, and more of one more directly related to the represented music.
04:09:01 <zzo38> Lymia: OK then make up your own ideas
04:09:04 <Lymia> ....I have no idea how to have this work...
04:13:18 <zzo38> Make one with music that isn't 12-TET....
04:16:08 <pikhq_> Ooooh, microtonal music.
04:16:32 <pikhq_> (note: I have never actually heard such music, I merely find the idea interesting in the abstract)
04:17:02 <zzo38> You have not written a program to play such a music?
04:18:45 <zzo38> I have made a variant of PPMCK to allow you to make a scale of whatever tones you want to (however it is still up octave doubles frequency, up to ten letter names, and up to sixteen notes per octave; other than that you can have whatever tones you want to)
04:19:03 <zzo38> pikhq_: Then write a music/program!
04:19:40 <Lymia> pikhq_, I'm trying to figure out how to make a program result from features that are already found in music.
04:20:07 <Lymia> Then using ordered combinations of these to create programs.
04:20:34 <zzo38> Lymia: Do you mean number of notes in one bar, or repeat marks, or major/minor/augmented/diminish chord, non-chord note, etc?
04:22:56 <Lymia> Not the former two.
04:31:36 -!- augur has joined.
04:33:30 -!- elliott_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
06:35:15 -!- clog has joined.
06:35:15 -!- clog has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:08:30 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
08:08:39 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
09:38:34 -!- FireFly has joined.
10:30:16 <fizzie> Well, *that* was interesting. The "Machine Learning: Advanced Probabilistic Methods" lecturer called me 08:50am, said he's having a "situation" (I'll not go into details here), and someone needs to go and give the 10:15--12:00 lecture to students.
11:03:20 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
11:03:40 -!- pikhq has joined.
11:22:44 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
11:23:10 -!- copumpkin has joined.
11:23:44 -!- Mannerisky has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
11:47:12 <fizzie> It was already; it's 14:23pm here.
11:47:35 <quintopia> but wishing you luck late is better than not at al
11:48:47 <fizzie> I just spoke half an hour about the software blob they need to use for the course assignment (a mixture-of-multivariate-bernoulli-distributions thing for dealing with binary 0/1 matrices) and then showed half an hour of video from the Stanford University "Machine Learning" course they've graciously youtubed with a Creative Commons license.
11:49:39 <fizzie> Approximately 30-40% of the people bothered to stay for the video.
11:49:59 <quintopia> so you were babysitting basically :P
11:51:45 <fizzie> Pretty much, yeah. "Show them a video" was my wife's suggestion, since that's what all the substitute teachers at elementary school used to do.
11:52:43 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me).
11:52:59 -!- rodgort has joined.
12:06:03 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me).
12:06:15 -!- rodgort has joined.
12:08:09 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
12:21:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
12:28:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:35:15 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
12:47:21 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
12:53:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Most awesome rendition of Toccata and Fugue in D Minor EVER?
12:57:14 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
12:59:16 <Zwaarddijk> I don't think there's any really consonant triads in that tuning for that instrument
13:01:00 -!- aloril has joined.
13:07:13 -!- augur has joined.
13:19:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
13:34:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
13:46:44 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me).
13:46:58 -!- rodgort has joined.
13:50:55 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
13:56:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:04:59 -!- Alex_Meg1roide has joined.
14:07:32 -!- Alex_Megaroide has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:13:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
14:28:48 -!- Behold has joined.
14:29:44 -!- pikhq has quit (*.net *.split).
14:29:47 -!- Vorpal has quit (*.net *.split).
14:29:47 -!- lambdabot has quit (*.net *.split).
14:29:48 -!- Gregor has quit (*.net *.split).
14:32:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
14:33:50 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
14:38:00 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
14:38:44 -!- Slereah has joined.
14:39:03 -!- Lymia has joined.
14:39:03 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host).
14:39:03 -!- Lymia has joined.
14:45:57 -!- javawizard has joined.
14:47:58 -!- jcp has quit (*.net *.split).
14:47:59 -!- javawizard has changed nick to jcp.
14:49:17 -!- Gregor` has joined.
14:49:27 -!- pikhq has joined.
14:51:25 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
14:52:13 -!- Vorpal has joined.
14:52:50 -!- sftp has joined.
15:02:55 -!- asiekierka has joined.
15:17:21 -!- copumpkin has joined.
15:28:28 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
15:28:36 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:51:18 -!- clog has joined.
17:51:18 -!- clog has joined.
17:51:21 <Sgeo_> I think my last long disconnect was yesterday
17:51:47 <oerjan> Sgeo_: about 2 hours 20 minutes
17:52:04 <oerjan> assuming it hasn't switched time zones again
17:52:06 <Sgeo_> I was here that entire time.. except for the random minute long disconnects...
17:52:23 <oerjan> it's still in a strange minute, at least
17:53:39 * oerjan recalls writing his first BASIC programs without a computer
17:55:25 <oerjan> <Sgeo_> oerjan, I don't think mental stability is required for logs. <-- no but not dropping any task the first moment you're bored is. reference: herobrine.
17:55:46 * oerjan does _not_ claim to be any better, mind you
17:56:11 <impomatic> I've been writing MSP430 programs without a chip or emulator to run them on :-)
17:59:48 -!- MigoMipo has quit (*.net *.split).
17:59:48 -!- Alex_Meg1roide has quit (*.net *.split).
17:59:48 -!- rodgort has quit (*.net *.split).
17:59:48 -!- myndzi\ has quit (*.net *.split).
18:01:02 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
18:01:02 -!- Alex_Meg1roide has joined.
18:01:02 -!- rodgort has joined.
18:01:02 -!- myndzi\ has joined.
18:04:34 <Sgeo_> oerjan, I thought it was just to provide what logs I happened to have lying around as of clogs recent temporary demise
18:05:54 <oerjan> Sgeo_: oh. i guess you're qualified for that. ;D
18:15:04 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:15:32 -!- mtve has joined.
18:20:18 <fizzie> Perhaps I might be what?
18:20:32 <oerjan> fizzie: stable enough to log this channel
18:21:00 <fizzie> I do log this channel, but the bouncer log format is rather on the ugly side.
18:22:32 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.27. 2x32k+8k+2x4k+2k+/32 to Japan, 8k to Taiwan, 1M+2x512k+2x128k to China, 2k to Indonesia, 4k+/32 to Papua New Guinea, 4k to India, 2M to Vietnam, 256+/32 to Australia, /32 to Malysia.
18:26:09 <Ilari> Well, at least that included /30 worth of IPv6 space. :-)
18:29:17 <oerjan> HOW CAN I SUBTRACT WITHOUT HER
18:31:26 <Ilari> 2^98 IPv6 host addresses, that is.
18:34:02 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:36:30 <zzo38> fizzie: Can you modify the program?
18:37:32 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
18:38:36 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:38:36 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
18:39:16 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
18:39:42 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
18:39:42 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
18:40:16 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:40:16 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
18:40:16 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:41:29 -!- SimonRC has joined.
18:42:50 -!- jcp has joined.
18:44:16 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:44:16 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
18:45:18 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:46:52 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:49:03 <fizzie> zzo38: Theoretically, but I already have quite a lot of logs in the old format. I might just convert them for reading.
18:50:18 * oerjan liked elliott's idea of storing as raw irc format and just converting on the fly
18:51:48 -!- olsner has joined.
18:52:08 <zzo38> I invented a IRC log format.
18:52:20 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:52:21 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
18:52:21 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:52:35 <fizzie> oerjan: I like that too; and in fact the bouncer's log format *is* pretty close to timestamps + direction + raw message, except someone's gone and tried to make it a tiny bit human-readable unfortunately.
18:53:20 <zzo38> fizzie: My format is also a bit like that.....
18:55:19 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:57:33 <fizzie> Probably the author of the bouncer. And now that I look at it, it's not really that close to raw after all, except it uses the full nick!user@mask triplets in most places where they are in the IRC messages themselves.
18:59:44 -!- aloril_ has joined.
19:00:30 <zzo38> fizzie: Do you have an example of a few lines?
19:02:14 <fizzie> zzo38: http://p.zem.fi/wnjr
19:03:22 <zzo38> My format looks like this (note there is a tab after each timestamp, and CRLF is required at the end of each line even in UNIX): http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/irc_log/ADMIN/1291325292
19:04:35 <fizzie> Well, that's quite more rawish.
19:08:04 <zzo38> In fact every message which is sent to everyone on the channel is also sent to the log file. (The lines with * are metadata lines and are added before)
19:21:20 -!- aloril has quit (*.net *.split).
19:21:20 -!- ineiros has quit (*.net *.split).
19:21:21 -!- dbc has quit (*.net *.split).
19:29:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:29:53 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:34:15 -!- cheater- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:34:34 <variable> zzo38: what are you using to generate that log format?
19:34:46 * variable should set up a bouncer at some point
19:34:56 <zzo38> variable: The server is generating the log file.
19:35:27 <variable> zzo38: ah, which server is that? Your own?
19:35:48 <variable> zzo38: you wrote the SW as well?
19:36:28 -!- cheater- has joined.
19:36:48 <zzo38> I took the software for ngIRCd and made some modifications and called the new one CthulhuIRCd.
19:37:11 <variable> What kind of modifications? Just log stuff or other things as well?
19:37:34 <zzo38> Other things too. Such as, adding the SUMMON command.
19:37:46 <zzo38> I also plan to add ! type channels later, too. (Currently it supports #&+ but not !)
19:38:06 <zzo38> And even a few more, too.
19:38:39 <fizzie> Opless and local channels, if I recall correctly.
19:38:45 <zzo38> + is modeless and & is local
19:39:09 -!- ineiros has joined.
19:39:09 -!- dbc has joined.
19:40:20 <zzo38> ! is a channel that is safe from taking over by netsplit
19:40:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:40:48 -!- augur has joined.
19:40:53 <variable> basically - create it with !! and join with ! + random token IIRC
19:41:07 <fizzie> You can join with just "!foo" if there's only one !xxxxxfoo in the network.
19:41:28 <fizzie> If there happens to be multiple, you have to specify which one you mean by using the "full name".
19:41:50 <fizzie> Normally there shouldn't be multiple, but it can happen during split-time.
19:42:02 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, it works like that. That is the purpose of ! type channel.
19:42:38 <zzo38> Note that only # is vulnerable to taking over. Types & ! + are all immune to being taking over, but for different reasons.
19:43:16 <variable> + because it makes no sense and & cause its local only and thus splits don't matter :-)
19:44:06 <zzo38> + because it is modeless, so the state cannot change after or before a split. You are correct about &
19:45:02 <zzo38> O, other thing I added in the IRC server, is a few new configuration settings (to select which channel types are available, and where logs go, and a few other things), and a way to add new commands by a external script.
19:45:28 <variable> it makes to sense to take over a modeless channel
19:45:42 <zzo38> variable: O, that is what you mean. OK, then you are correct.
19:45:59 <variable> also - please make said changes available to the public :-)
19:56:02 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
19:59:35 <zzo38> variable: OK, I try
20:04:17 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:05:02 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:08:41 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:08:42 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
20:08:43 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Client Quit).
20:12:48 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:13:28 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:13:41 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:26:41 <Ilari> APNIC down total of 1.07 this week. Wow.
20:27:19 <ais523> more than a one /8 in a week?
20:27:26 <ais523> my mind's having trouble comprehending that
20:27:32 <ais523> well, more than 1.0 /8
20:29:04 <Ilari> Now there are 2.89 blocks left (excluding setaside block).
20:30:42 -!- elliottx has joined.
20:30:51 <elliottx> 09:55:25 <oerjan> <Sgeo_> oerjan, I don't think mental stability is required for logs. <-- no but not dropping any task the first moment you're bored is. reference: herobrine.
20:30:57 <Gregor> elliott X is elliott FROM THE FUTOOR
20:30:57 <elliottx> um i didn't exactly "give up" on herobrine
20:31:09 <elliottx> it was running fine, it just disconnected due to a situation that it was meant to recover automatically from
20:31:16 <elliottx> and i haven't bothered to restart it because clog still works :)
20:31:27 <elliottx> Gregor: elliott from a time where his computer won't route to freenode
20:31:36 <elliottx> it is in the FUTURE ... of the past\
20:31:40 <oerjan> INSULT SUCCESSFUL. PROGRESS TO NEXT LEVEL.
20:31:53 <elliottx> oerjan: one day I _will_ find out where you live
20:32:10 <elliottx> so what happened when the logs were offline, gay orgy?
20:32:17 <Ilari> Well, APNIC also has twice allocated entiere /8 at once. :-/
20:32:26 -!- pumpkin has joined.
20:32:41 <elliottx> 10:50:18 * oerjan liked elliott's idea of storing as raw irc format and just converting on the fly
20:32:51 <elliottx> oerjan: what was herobrine's ip again
20:32:55 <elliottx> the server has no domain name for me to log in to :D
20:33:26 <oerjan> it's just about slipped off my address bar
20:33:46 <elliottx> herobrine's survival depends on it.
20:33:54 <elliottx> i'm not quite motivated enough to check on the slicehost panel
20:35:14 <elliottx> oerjan, oerjan, oerjan, your blatant disregard for life is showing
20:36:10 <elliottx> why must you destroy my leverage
20:36:37 <oerjan> elliottx: it took a bit of time because i selected the wrong link in my logs
20:36:40 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:37:02 <oerjan> also i had to guess how long ago it was
20:37:31 <oerjan> what is +v again, anyhow
20:37:42 <elliottx> lets you speak when +m is on, and shows how 1333337 you are
20:37:50 <Ilari> APNIC blocks free (starting from /10): 4, 10, 28, 68, 151, 319.
20:37:50 <elliottx> nobody has ever called me leet *sniff*
20:38:01 <elliottx> ok i have no idea which ruby process is herobrine and which is the web server
20:38:20 <elliottx> oerjan: your words are hollow.
20:38:31 <Ilari> Also overrides some other stuff that would normally prevent sending to channel (like matching +q).
20:38:54 -!- Herobrine has joined.
20:39:39 <oerjan> \o/ \o/ \m/ \m/ \o| |o/
20:39:59 <Gregor> FOURTH GUY IS FLASHING US
20:40:02 <Ilari> When there is no longer sufficiently large free blocks, address space starts to become quite fragmented.
20:40:48 <Ilari> Wonder when /10s run out for APNIC.
20:41:27 <ais523> elliottx: hmm... e111077x?
20:41:43 <elliottx> oerjan: btw the lesson here is that insulting me is the best way to get me to do something.
20:42:03 <ais523> grr, looks like Deewiant improved allegro while I wasn't looking
20:42:32 <ais523> ah, is elliottx like ais523_?
20:42:50 <elliottx> * Looking up irc.freenode.net * Connecting to chat.freenode.net (93.152.160.101) port 6667... * Connection failed. Error: Network is unreachable
20:43:00 <elliottx> the internets are falling apart
20:43:08 <Deewiant> ais523: Not any time recently :-P
20:43:27 <ais523> well, I've been busy recently
20:43:33 <ais523> but just spent a day writing a new program
20:43:40 <ais523> after I finished bugs it beat all but three existing programs
20:43:48 <ais523> and I'm busy tweaking constants to complete the set atm
20:43:56 <ais523> but it seems I was working against old versions of allegro
20:44:02 <elliottx> it's probably a chainlance bug instead ;)
20:44:14 <ais523> elliottx: this is using egojoust
20:44:19 <ais523> to be precise, a fixed version
20:44:21 <elliottx> oh, then it's an egojoust bug.
20:44:30 <ais523> it did have bugs, but I fixed some of them
20:44:38 <ais523> although it still has that efficiency on % issue
20:45:16 <ais523> oh, spookygoth and sexyghoul dropped off?
20:45:22 <ais523> they were an interesting challenge to beat
20:45:34 <ais523> and I think my program's better for knowing how to beat their strategy
20:47:52 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
20:50:58 <Ilari> APNIC Last 30 days: 1.81(!!!) blocks
20:52:15 <impomatic> Oh. I only have 2 BF Joust programs left :-(
20:52:32 <impomatic> elliottx: Did you complete the Forth?
20:52:55 <Ilari> Do I smell panic? :-)
20:53:20 <elliottx> I'm working on keyboard input.
20:53:24 <ais523> impomatic: three, fizzie reposted spookygoth
20:54:28 <impomatic> It'd be neat if Egojoust had an age for programs
20:54:35 <oerjan> Ilari: yes, impomatic is clearly panicking
20:55:18 <ais523> impomatic: there's a last-modified in the directory listing
20:55:21 <impomatic> No panic. I'll just write something else ;-)
20:55:28 <zzo38> Do you like Japanese chess and/or Chinese chess?
20:55:48 <impomatic> I meant age = number of challenges survived.
20:56:21 <impomatic> Like on the corewar hills http://sal.math.ualberta.ca/hill.php?key=tiny
20:56:33 <Ilari> Last 60 days: 3.19 blocks. Wow. Just Wow.
20:56:44 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
20:57:29 <Ilari> That's almost 900k addresses per day.
20:58:14 <olsner> elliottx: status report on your forth project?
20:58:46 <elliottx> olsner: I'm trying out switching into real mode to do the keyboard, still (dude, I just got on the computer...); I'm not sure it'll end up smaller than manual jiggery, though.
20:58:54 <elliottx> Although storing the first six bits of (ascii-64) is a huge advantag.e
20:59:10 <ais523> !bfjoust waterfall3 http://sprunge.us/iIZL
20:59:15 <olsner> does "ascii-64" mean 6-bit ascii here?
20:59:20 <ais523> it's not quite perfect, but still pretty good
20:59:53 <olsner> fwiw, when I said that the other day I meant ascii (subtract) 64
21:00:01 <ais523> the loss against wireless_frownie is based on precise details of timing, if I add or change the number of dots in one place it completely changes the result
21:00:08 <zzo38> elliottx: Did you try to use unreal mode?
21:00:48 <elliottx> zzo38: that's basically what I'm trying
21:00:56 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_waterfall3: 31.8
21:01:00 <elliottx> olsner: ascii-64 means take the 8-bit ascii, subtract 64, and store the lower 6 bits
21:01:09 <elliottx> if not that, then I'll use that 5-bit manual packing
21:01:35 <ais523> hmm, that result's different from egojoust's
21:01:49 <elliottx> it's either chainlance bugs or egojoust bugs
21:01:58 <Gregor> Some of the contestants now on the hill won't run on egojoust.
21:02:11 <elliottx> Gregor: ais523 has a """fixed""" egojoust
21:02:42 <ais523> I fear it might not be fixed enough, though
21:02:55 <ais523> in this case, I need chainlance or something like that to have any chance of competing
21:03:25 * ais523 asks egojsout for a third opinion
21:03:30 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:03:52 <Ilari> Seems like run-on-APNIC scenario has come to pass... Now I'm not sure APNIC pool will make it even to May (which would mean depleting it even faster than APNIC estimates (3-6 months) in early February).
21:04:11 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:04:31 <ais523> egojsout agrees with egojoust
21:04:33 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:04:39 <ais523> so either both ego* are buggy, or chainlance is
21:05:01 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:05:16 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:12:02 <ais523> !bfjoust waterfall2 http://sprunge.us/WMEa
21:12:08 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_waterfall2: 31.4
21:12:13 <ais523> anyway, waterfall3 will never top the leaderboard, it tends to win closely
21:12:20 <ais523> but it does beat almost everything
21:20:45 -!- Alex_Meg1roide has changed nick to wareya.
21:28:25 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:29:10 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:31:44 <elliottx> ais523: egojsout isn't buggy, chainlance is
21:32:15 <elliottx> ais523: the chances of egojoust and egojsout sharing a bug is very low since their architecture is basically completely different
21:32:25 <elliottx> and chainlance has been buggy before
21:33:27 <ais523> elliottx: I think I agree with you
21:33:41 <ais523> anyway, it beats the furry girls and ties with allegro, regardless of what chainlance says
21:33:59 <ais523> I advise you don't try to look at what it's doing in egojsout, just because it takes far too long
21:34:20 <ais523> it's been known to timeout on a game it'd win eventually before now, just because it's doing so much
21:34:34 <ais523> meanwhile, have a look at this:
21:34:42 <ais523> !bfjoust triplock3 >>>>(-)*3<(+)*5<(+)*100<<(-)*41>(+)*120 [](+)*100>(+)*15[-]<[](+)*100>>(+)*15[-]<< [[](+)*100>>[>]->([-{[<+]}])%12<[<]<] <((++-)*100)*1000
21:34:49 <ais523> a defence program in one line of IRC
21:34:55 <ais523> that actually does moderately well
21:35:10 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_triplock3: 37.6
21:35:16 -!- pumpkin has joined.
21:35:21 <ais523> better than waterfall, according to chainlance
21:35:26 <elliottx> Oh, because you have (+)*100 and the like in there
21:35:29 <ais523> and *100000, which is the cycle limit
21:35:35 <elliottx> [22:12] <ais523> !bfjoust triplock3 >>>>(-)*3<(+)*5<(+)*100<<(-)*41>(+)*120 [](+)*100>(+)*15[-]<[](+)*100>>(+)*15[-]<< [[](+)*100>>[>]->([-{[<+]}])%12<[<]<] <((++-)*100)*1000
21:35:48 <ais523> because egojoust is buggy on *100000
21:38:26 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:39:31 <ais523> yep, it interprets it as *10000
21:39:41 <ais523> that's a trivial fix, but I wasn't sure if I'd have to run it on an unfixed egojoust at some point
21:40:12 <ais523> anyway, I think it may have been Gregor who invented the triplock (I'm not sure), but I spent ages looking into how to make it work better
21:41:14 <ais523> the code reduces all numbers over 10000 to 10000
21:41:22 <pikhq> So. I picked up some Don McLean albums, simply because I felt sorry that the only song of his that anybody knows is "American Pie".
21:41:25 <elliottx> no, it's all numbers over 100000 or under 0
21:42:05 <elliottx> ais523: oh, i was going to ask you something, but forget what
21:42:06 <ais523> anyway, pre-bugfix egojoust was much faster at running (()*3)*3 than ()*9
21:42:14 <ais523> for reasons I don't fully understand
21:42:18 <elliottx> ais523: you know how you were going on about call by name being the most general of the calling conventions?
21:42:24 <Deewiant> Feel free to submit more programs that beat FFSPG but not allegro
21:42:34 <ais523> Deewiant: it draws with allegro
21:42:44 <elliottx> ais523: You may want to read http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~pbl/cbpv.html -- hey, *wow*, bham.ac.uk, I never even noticed! (No, seriously)
21:42:44 <ais523> chainlance is wrong about the result
21:42:59 <Deewiant> I, of course, refer only to the actual hill
21:43:12 <elliottx> Possibly then you already know of call-by-push-value.
21:43:24 <ais523> he's one of the people who has to approve my interim reports on how I'm doing in the PhD
21:45:45 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:47:33 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:48:33 <elliottx> ais523: in call-by-name languages, can foo(v) change the value of v? I'm not very familiar with the convention because it's so fucked-up :)
21:49:36 <ais523> elliottx: generally things you can assign to and things you can't are different types
21:49:40 <ais523> but if it's assignable, yes
21:50:02 <elliottx> ais523: right; consider a lazy call-by-name language where everything is assignable :)
21:50:11 <ais523> the best analogy for call-by-name is that it works like #define macros and can do everything they do, except it's scoped properly
21:50:15 <elliottx> (I forget what else I was thinking of to make things more confusing)
21:50:21 <ais523> so if you call f(x), you give it your x rather than its x
21:50:44 <elliottx> ais523: Preferably, if f(x) is x = x/2, then f(x+1) is x = (x+1)/2 - 1
21:50:48 <ais523> you can do things like this too: f(x,x+1) then x assigns 4 to its first argument, now its second argument is 5
21:51:00 <ais523> it's parenthesised properly too
21:51:39 <elliottx> ais523: what, "x+1 := 3" works in call-by-name languages?
21:51:45 <elliottx> what about f(x) := y for arbitrary f?
21:51:51 <ais523> no, x+1 isn't assignable
21:52:01 <ais523> or to be precise, you have to dereference x before you can add 1 to it
21:52:02 <elliottx> ais523: that's what I mean, a language where everything is assignable
21:52:10 <ais523> everything is assignable in INTERCAL
21:52:17 <elliottx> f(x+1) works where f is f(x) = { x := x/2 }
21:52:21 <ais523> although the existing impls aren't very good at it
21:52:30 <elliottx> turns into { x+1 := (x+1)/2 } === { x := (x+1)/2 - 1 }
21:52:43 <elliottx> obviously, you just have to define an inverse with every function
21:53:06 <ais523> C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL try to calculate it automatically, but often can't
21:53:15 <ais523> to make it easier, they'll change the value of constants if necessary
21:53:40 <ais523> analogy: if you do x+1 := 5, and x is 3, it might change 1 to 2 rather than x to 4
21:53:41 <elliottx> hmm, I was about to ask for a language where reverse(x) is x^-1, but iirc oerjan proved that every such language is trivial a while back :)
21:54:03 <ais523> it's a similar principle
21:54:10 <ais523> although in INTERCAL, all that changes are the literal constants
21:54:16 <ais523> and in CLC-INTERCAL, literal line numbers too
21:54:27 <ais523> it doesn't change things like intermediate results in calculations like Forte does
22:00:54 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
22:00:56 <zzo38> SUBROUTINE MUTATE(N) N=3 RETURN After calling MUTATE(2) in some FORTRAN implementations, you find that 2=3
22:02:25 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:03:13 <elliottx> ais523: hmm, call-by-name is annoying because I'm having a hard time inventing a convention _more_ insane
22:03:19 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:03:20 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
22:03:20 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:03:32 <ais523> `addquote <elliottx> ais523: hmm, call-by-name is annoying because I'm having a hard time inventing a convention _more_ insane
22:03:33 <zzo38> You should use call-by-telephone, then.
22:03:42 <ais523> elliottx: yep, you should just have asked zzo38
22:03:54 <elliottx> ais523: what about: variables are named by expressions; every parameter becomes a variable named by its expression, initialised to the same expression's value
22:03:57 <elliottx> ais523: the variable is then passed by reference
22:04:15 <ais523> in fact, I'm going to modify the quote to add zzo38's response, it works pretty well
22:04:24 <elliottx> but because "42" means the value of the variable "42" in the current scope
22:05:09 <ais523> oh, HackEgo isn't here
22:05:58 <elliottx> ais523: please tell me that's at least as insane as call-by-name...
22:06:03 <elliottx> and the variables are dynamically-scoped
22:06:14 <ais523> well, I think call-by-name is sane, if a little hard to work out mentally
22:06:47 <ais523> yep, it's an implication that I might not be the best person to ask for advice
22:07:22 <elliottx> ais523: Fine, is this convention MORE sane than call-by-name :P
22:07:37 <zzo38> In QBASIC we have the default is to pass the pointer in the subroutine unless it is BYVAL or it is not specified as a single variable name. By combining that with VARPTR, I can do a few things with pointers.
22:08:12 <ais523> zzo38: I tried that once when I was younger, but got confused
22:08:36 <ais523> after a while I realised that for pointers to SINGLE type values, it was easier to copy them into a new SINGLE type value, rather than try to figure out their value from the individual bytes
22:09:02 <zzo38> ais523: You can use TYPE and LSET to copy bytes from one type to another
22:09:39 <elliottx> 05:07:27 --- join: ais523 (n=chatzill@chillingi.eee.bham.ac.uk) joined #esoteric 05:07:45 <ais523> Sorry about that, I forgot to join #esoteric before I started sending messages to it
22:10:06 <ais523> was that my first message that ever reached the channel?
22:10:09 <zzo38> Also, what I was doing didn't even do like that, instead, I pass pointers to the subroutine and then check to see if it is pointing to a specific variable, and those things, too.
22:10:31 <zzo38> It has +n I think you cannot send to a channel you are not joined to.
22:10:44 -!- elliottx has changed nick to elliott.
22:10:49 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
22:10:49 -!- elliott has joined.
22:10:49 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
22:10:49 -!- elliott has joined.
22:11:05 * elliott makes #esoteric-minecraft -n
22:11:12 <elliott> +s and -n, the best combination
22:11:35 <zzo38> What happened now to the gateway/ and unaffiliated/ ??
22:11:40 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: nobody can see it in whois and channel lists unless they're in it, but you can send messages to it without joining
22:11:57 <ais523> zzo38: elliott's cloaked so when he identifies it hides his IP
22:12:05 <ais523> but you can't hide your IP via web access
22:12:05 <elliott> ais523: wow, that message worked
22:12:15 <ais523> so Freenode changed it, then overruled itself and changed it again
22:15:01 <ais523> I imagine most people don't even know how to send a message to a channel they aren't in
22:15:13 <ais523> but I'm completely unsurprised that zzo38 does
22:15:27 <elliott> ais523: it was actually a notice
22:15:44 <zzo38> You send the message the same way that you send a message to the channel that you are in!
22:15:46 <ais523> well, it's much the same
22:16:03 <ais523> zzo38: yes, just most clients hide the fact
22:16:45 <zzo38> Do most clients hide that too?
22:16:57 <ais523> hmm, why does clog put my hostname in a notice?
22:17:09 <ais523> zzo38: they put it behind a command /notice, rather than sending a privmsg which has no prefix
22:17:23 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: yes, they're meant for automated responses, like bot replies
22:17:29 <elliott> ais523: "which has no prefix"?
22:17:32 <elliott> NOTICE is the IRC command to do it
22:17:36 <ais523> elliott: I mean in the client
22:17:41 <ais523> I know how it's done "by hand"
22:18:01 <zzo38> Phantom__Hoover: You can send a notice to a channel or user with NOTICE instead of PRIVMSG (some clients will do it in different way)
22:18:48 <ais523> the funny thing is, clients tend to make a big deal out of notices
22:18:57 <ais523> even though they're specced to be things you shouldn't make a big deal out of
22:19:53 <zzo38> My client doesn't treat notices any different, except that when information is requested, the request must use PRIVMSG and the response must use NOTICE
22:20:13 <ais523> hmm, triplock3 seems to be doing the best of all my programs
22:20:22 <elliott> ais523: btw, I've been working on a boot-sector Forth
22:20:31 <elliott> it turns out this is excruciatingly difficult
22:20:32 <ais523> also, now I'm curious; /did/ Gregor invent the triplock?Ii can't remember
22:20:39 <ais523> elliott: that seems doable, although a bit tight
22:21:03 <elliott> ais523: consider that the absolute minimum to get into flat protected mode is about 54 bytes for me
22:21:04 <zzo38> elliott: You can fit it in the boot sector? I do not think you could fit all of the primitives in there, so it should still require manual initialization?
22:21:28 <elliott> ais523: (I overlap the first unused segment with the rest of the program, and only use one actual segment, which I change from read-write to read-execute with a xor right before setting cs)
22:21:37 <elliott> ais523: (and I only set A20 with the short-but-not-universally-supported BIOS method)
22:22:03 <elliott> now consider keyboard handling code... bios requires unprotecting and reprotecting, manual handling involves translating scancodes
22:22:08 <elliott> zzo38: I'm going to use a stripped-down set of primitives
22:22:24 <ais523> why use the keyboard at all?
22:22:33 <elliott> ais523: it isn't a Forth without a prompt...
22:22:43 <elliott> a non-interactive Forth isn't worthy of the name
22:22:49 <elliott> (actually being able to save your work is much less vital)
22:22:55 <elliott> (OK, so not really, but as far as the Forth nature goes)
22:23:17 <elliott> ais523: I'm planning to back word names into a 32-bit dword :)
22:23:29 <elliott> I can have a 32-long alphabet, enough for letters and some punctuation, and have names of max 6 chars, while still having two bits left over
22:23:36 <elliott> (names are padded out with 0; in this case, probably "q")
22:23:41 <elliott> (scancode-order, obviously)
22:23:49 <elliott> the problem is that i still need to translate to ascii to print to the screen
22:24:06 * Phantom__Hoover wonders why the A20 gate crap hasn't just been replaced with "I'm doing this on AMD64, and if you don't have that you're an idiot and deserve the boot crashing and burning on you".
22:24:10 <ais523> OK, it makes no sense that triplock3 is doing this well
22:24:14 <elliott> (that padding has the fun effect that abc = abcq = abcqq)
22:24:22 <ais523> I should submit triplock2, which is a) marginally better, and b) not a oneliner
22:24:40 <zzo38> I just used unreal mode and used the BIOS calls for keyboard, it will return the ASCII codes so that you can write to the screen
22:24:45 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: x86's backwards-compatibility is one of its main selling points
22:24:58 <elliott> zzo38: Unreal mode still has the overhead of going into protected mode, though
22:24:59 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:25:00 <ais523> !bfjoust triplock2 http://sprunge.us/DcXF
22:25:20 <elliott> can you lgdt without going into protected mode, and have it work properly?
22:25:22 <elliott> I would be very surprised if you could
22:25:26 <zzo38> Yes, but you can switch out of protected mode afterward
22:25:26 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_triplock2: 42.5
22:25:29 <ais523> why are you going out of real mode?
22:25:39 -!- Patashu has joined.
22:25:53 <zzo38> If you are writing a system that small you should not ever need to go out of real mode, though.
22:26:00 <elliott> ais523: because dealing with segment addresses in Forth code is just perverse
22:26:01 <Phantom__Hoover> If you're talking to zzo38, it's because he's a nutcase and reason just doesn't factor.
22:26:16 <elliott> @ and ! being indices into a gigantic flat memory space is a vital part of the Forth philosophy
22:27:16 <zzo38> You can make a system that the data area is only 64K and the native code area is another 64K?
22:28:10 <zzo38> If you want to make it on GameBoy too, the one on GameBoy you cannot even address more than 64K memory.
22:28:42 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: I don't think he's any less sane than anyone else in this channel
22:28:42 <ais523> hmm, if I'm never going to get waterfall on top of the leaderboard, how will I get to do a crazily long and detailed explanation of it?
22:28:47 <elliott> ais523: I suppose I could just say "oh, just use one segment"!
22:28:51 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:28:57 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
22:29:09 <elliott> I'll try real mode, I suppose
22:29:15 <elliott> but still, I'll ping olsner to ask about my insane idea :)
22:29:49 <Phantom__Hoover> He seems to be incapable of rational thought, at least on the same precepts as everyone else, and he is _incapable_ of dealing with the fact that other people are not exact duplicates of his mind state.
22:30:22 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: his thought process is entirely rational, it just starts from different premises to everyone else's
22:33:15 <ais523> if you know what you two mean...
22:33:31 <ais523> Deewiant: that table is bugged, I don't trust it
22:33:53 <ais523> allegro does do better than waterfall3 in my local testing, though (over 1200 compared to just under 1100 wins-losses)
22:36:52 <Deewiant> foldl :: (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a
22:40:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:41:40 -!- augur has joined.
22:44:17 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:44:56 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:46:01 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:47:39 <oerjan> New Underload wiki section up
22:49:09 <pikhq_> Remember: Dick Van Dyke's "British" accent sounds legitimately British to many of us.
22:49:32 <Phantom__Hoover> That's not as extreme to me due to lack of personal experience.
22:50:01 <pikhq_> American trying to do Cockney.
22:51:03 <Phantom__Hoover> I already knew that you all think that Scotland consists entirely of the Highlands, but being the same as Ireland...
22:51:25 <pikhq_> "Eh, the accents are both rhotic. Close enough, right?"
22:52:14 <pikhq_> Yeah, but it's a UK rhotic accent!
22:52:59 <pikhq_> Look: we can't even honestly portray regions of our own country consistently. Much less other countries. :P
22:54:22 <pikhq_> If it's between the east and west coasts, expect high levels of bullshit.
22:54:58 <Phantom__Hoover> [[(Note that what is marketed as a Mars bar in the UK more closely resembles the American Milky Way bar than the American Mars bar.)]]
22:55:23 <pikhq_> I haven't even freaking seen a Mars bar here.
22:55:28 <ais523> you get Milky Ways in the UK too
22:55:39 <ais523> and they're vaguely similar to Mars bars, but there are obvious differences
22:55:41 <pikhq_> Freaking Mars company.
22:58:01 <pikhq_> http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/the-world-according-to-americans.jpg Any further questions?
22:58:08 <Sgeo> sgeo.diagonalfish.net is down until further notice
22:59:13 <Phantom__Hoover> Honestly, that's such a huge oversight I can't even begin to comment.
22:59:21 <pikhq_> You mean that's a seperate landmass?
22:59:42 <Sgeo> My karaoke may be infected!
23:00:31 <Sgeo> Retrieve it now, tell me when you're done
23:02:05 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:04:12 -!- hallvabo has joined.
23:04:19 <Sgeo> It's gone undealt with since Oct. 2010
23:06:05 <Sgeo> Some stress thingy, this time
23:06:15 <Sgeo> It's happened before
23:09:02 <Sgeo> So the stress website points to another
23:09:26 <Sgeo> Specifically, to a site that is down
23:10:10 <elliott> [23:32] <ais523> you get Milky Ways in the UK too
23:10:13 <elliott> yep but they're not the same as in the us
23:12:45 <ais523> how beautifully muddled
23:13:03 <ais523> one thing that surprised me is that McDonald's chips/fries are not the same in the UK and Canad
23:13:21 <ais523> (the ones in Canada are much better IMO, and are more similar to Burger King chips in the UK than McDonalds chips)
23:13:28 <ais523> pikhq_: the UK ones are relatively tasteless
23:13:59 <pikhq_> Given that McDonald's has a freaking obsession with consistency.
23:14:02 <ais523> presumably because they think Brits just don't care
23:14:15 <elliott> ais523: clearly a sufficient portion of brits don't :)
23:14:17 <ais523> well, they make a big deal in the UK about selling British food
23:14:20 <Sgeo> I'm going to bring everything back online as it gets cleaned
23:14:34 <ais523> e.g. the Big Macs are made from British beef
23:14:53 <pikhq_> ais523: Yes, it's company policy to locally source ingredients, actually.
23:15:21 <pikhq_> But aside from that, they try and make it so that for each product that you can get internationally, it is the freaking *same* everywhere.
23:15:30 <elliott> ais523: *British beef-based product
23:15:42 <elliott> "100% beef" doesn't mean, you know, 100% actual beef meat.
23:15:50 <elliott> It just means 100% made out of stuff that came from cows.
23:16:02 <elliott> (And yes, McDonalds and other fast food chains do rely on this difference.)
23:18:12 -!- hallvabo has left (?).
23:18:53 <pikhq_> elliott: More importantly, they rely on factory farming to make their meat nearly devoid of cost.
23:20:23 -!- Mannerisky has joined.
23:20:51 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:23:25 -!- pumpkin has joined.
23:24:09 <elliott> yes, but nobody *doesn't* add it.
23:24:19 <elliott> so it's part of mcdonalds chips by any reasonable definition
23:24:53 <ais523> in the UK, McDonalds add the salt themselves before serving
23:25:00 <ais523> although extra salt is available
23:25:09 <ais523> and Burger King serve the chips without salt and don't provide salt
23:25:11 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:25:13 <ais523> but rather, potassium chloride
23:25:36 <ais523> I think I hit upon the trick of taking the extra salt from McDonalds to Burger King once
23:25:41 <ais523> but I rarely have fast food anyway
23:25:56 <Mathnerd314> ais523: potassium chloride is a salt... can you really taste a difference?
23:26:05 <ais523> and nowadays, don't add salt to things (although I eat things that contain salt naturally, or had it added by the manufacturer)
23:26:08 <ais523> Mathnerd314: it's quite an obvious difference
23:26:43 * Mathnerd314 will some HCl and mix it with some potassium to try
23:27:04 <ais523> possibly a bad idea, they might not cancel out exactly
23:27:20 <ais523> also, you want to mix with potassium hydroxide
23:30:17 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:36:26 -!- Zuu has joined.
23:41:09 <pikhq_> Is my freaking hard drive dying or something?
23:41:21 <elliott> THE EVIL HAPPINESS CARTELS
23:41:35 <pikhq_> I'd love to test, but EVERYTHING THAT DOES A DISK ACCESS LOCKS UP RIGHT NOW
23:41:51 <ais523> pikhq_: that sounds kind-of bad
23:42:22 <elliott> ais523: it's fine, just ask Sgeo; if you lose a disk, *don't* take it out of the computer, *don't* try and recover it, instead, just try and boot it a lot so that it gets even worse!
23:42:42 <elliott> days later, act amazed that recovering data from the disk might be impossible, and then give up when you learn it'll take about a day to run ddrescue
23:42:54 <elliott> this is a tried-and-tested method of data nonrecovery
23:43:13 <Sgeo> I never gave up!
23:43:28 <elliott> Sgeo: orly? so you have your data now?
23:43:30 <Sgeo> The project is just on... hiatus from lack of suitable computer.
23:43:38 <elliott> the data is permanently gone.
23:43:45 <ais523> elliott: I had a hard drive break due to the power supply breaking and taking out some things connected to it with it
23:43:46 <elliott> you had a few days, you blew it. you gave up by not proactively rescuing it in that time.
23:43:55 <ais523> the data's still on it, but the hard drive can't physically be turned on
23:44:12 <ais523> I just restored from backups rather than trying to repair it
23:44:13 <Sgeo> elliott, it degrades when it's not doing anything?
23:44:13 <elliott> ais523: in Sgeo's case, it was dropping it. I'm not sure how one drops a hard disk so hard as to badly damage it without covering your fingers with butter, or not living on the same dimensional plane.
23:44:17 <Sgeo> It's inside no computer.
23:44:29 <elliott> I wish I had my normal client with all my fancy ignores.
23:44:36 <ais523> it also broke the CD drive, although obviously that didn't damage the CD in it
23:44:56 <elliott> ais523: I'd like to see an optical drive that, if damaged while a disc is inside, damages the disc
23:45:02 <elliott> say, one that constantly spins the CD incredibly fast?
23:47:33 <elliott> hmm, what's a good name for the function f : Generator a -> Generator (Int, a)?
23:47:43 <elliott> i.e. f [a,b,c] == [(0,a), (1,b), (1,c)]
23:47:45 <elliott> Python calls it "enumerate"
23:48:02 <elliott> oerjan: that's a terrible name, that would be something like [0, 1, -1, 2, -2, ...] enumerating all the ints
23:48:06 <elliott> at least, that's what it suggests to me
23:48:39 <pikhq_> The drive is currently 56 Celsius, which is covering *severe* lags.
23:48:48 <elliott> oerjan: but that isn't what it is!
23:48:52 <pikhq_> What I'm going to do is shut down and try and identify cooling problems.
23:48:58 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Quit: Here's hoping.).
23:49:12 <oerjan> zipBracketZeroDotDotEndBracket
23:50:12 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:51:00 <ais523> elliott: pairWithIndex?
23:52:27 -!- quintopia has joined.
23:53:35 <elliott> enumerate is better than all of these :P
23:56:34 <elliott> heh I just realised that Haskell lists are isomorphic to generators
23:57:10 <elliott> newtype Generator a = Generator { next :: Maybe (a, Generator a) }
23:57:20 <elliott> newtype Generator a = Geberatir (Maybe (a, Generator a))
23:57:24 <elliott> Generator a = Maybe (a, Generator a)
23:57:28 <elliott> Generator a = Maybe (a * Generator a)
23:57:36 <elliott> Generator a = (a * Generator a) + 1
23:57:48 <elliott> data List a = Nil | Cons a (List a)
23:57:58 <elliott> List a = Nil | Cons (a * List a)
00:11:53 <elliott> Hmm, can I tell nasm to generate a 32-bit mov instruction in 16-bit code? :P
00:11:59 <elliott> As in, the same mov it'd use when using "bits 32"...
00:21:29 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:24:13 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:24:41 <fizzie> You can just "bits 32; mov blah; bits 16" to get exactly that, but it doesn't sound like a thing that'd usually make sense.
00:25:13 <elliott> fizzie: For "not-actually-protected" mode X-D
00:25:21 <elliott> ais523: argh, why isn't vi the same as your conception of vi?
00:26:12 <Ilari> Uh, oh: http://www.networkworld.com/news/2011/030411-ipv6-home-routers.html
00:26:30 <ais523> elliott: because ais523-mental-vi is like anything of zzo38's
00:26:50 <elliott> ais523: but c^ makes _sense_!
00:27:09 <ais523> so does zzo38's stuff, it just doesn't fit existing practice
00:27:44 <elliott> ais523: I want to live in a world where c^ works; I'm deathly afraid that one day I will live in zzo38's world.
00:27:56 <elliott> I suspect that this holds true of anyone who (1) isn't zzo38; and (2) uses vi a lot.
00:28:04 <elliott> Or at least they wouldn't think it _bad_ if c^ worked.
00:28:30 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: Later).
00:29:15 <ais523> what does it do instead?
00:29:34 <elliott> I'm secretly waiting for Gregor or some other vim user to pop up with "oh, just use X" so I can get this done
00:29:40 -!- jcp has joined.
00:30:18 <fizzie> Ilari: Friend-of-a-friend who apparently works in related field told that one big reason why no IPv6 on consumer routers is that (to save on the CPU power they need) they offload quite a bit of processing to the network chipset, and the hard/firm/software for those (Broadcom was specifically named as a culprit) is very much IPv6 only; so it doesn't really help that it's a Linux-based box, since the whole IPv6 side would work on software only, and they don't hav
00:30:18 <fizzie> e enough MIPS to do that on link speeds.
00:30:25 <ais523> and if it does, could you use d^i as a replacement?
00:30:48 <fizzie> s/IPv6 only/IPv4 only/
00:31:04 <elliott> ch does, though, so it's not like you can't replace behind you
00:31:32 <Ilari> Wonder if DSL modem I have could do IPv6. It is in bridging mode after all.
00:31:38 <elliott> oh well, did it the proper way with s// instead :)
00:33:01 -!- Wamanuz5 has joined.
00:35:46 <Ilari> Routing mode surely not, but bridging mode might be another matter.
00:36:07 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:42:57 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:43:34 <pikhq> Okay, rewired things more cleanly and got rid of dust...
00:45:33 <fizzie> Ilari: The one I have (ZyXEL P660-something) passes IPv6 just fine when bridging, at least. But that's not surprising, it's pretty much a layer 2 device only in that mode.
00:45:58 <pikhq> And I can conclude from SMART that my hard drive is not at risk of failure. However, if my system gets too hot again, I am going to need a new case.
00:46:32 <Ilari> Some overly "smart" modems filter IPv6 (among everything else non-IPv4).
00:49:07 <ais523> pikhq: ah, it was an overheat?
00:49:20 <pikhq> ais523: When I shut my system down it was at 56°C.
00:49:39 <ais523> don't they start losing data at 52?
00:49:50 <ais523> or did I misremember that?
00:50:06 <pikhq> Well, SMART shows 0 bad blocks.
00:50:10 <Ilari> Not that low. But hard drives don't like high temperatures.
00:50:27 <pikhq> But it was apparently causing issues seeking.
00:50:41 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:51:44 <pikhq> My hard drive has so spun up 72 times.
00:51:55 <pikhq> Seems a bit young to start failing.
00:52:43 <Ilari> Why it even overheats?
00:53:14 -!- pumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
00:54:44 <pikhq> And it doesn't help matters any that my home filesystem is approx. insanely fragmented right now.
00:56:36 <Ilari> Hmm... Accoding to extended stats file: Total APNIC address space: 866 929 152 addresses (51.67 blocks). Free space: 66 832 128 (3.98 blocks). 92.29% depleted.
00:59:04 <Ilari> Accoding to the pie graph on APNIC site: 51.58 blocks total, 3.89 blocks free. 92.5% depleted.
01:00:02 <Ilari> The entiere APNIC free pool would fit in a /6.
01:07:22 <oerjan> <elliott> I'm trying to do c^<-- works fine in vim...
01:08:22 <elliott> maybe it's because i was in vi mode
01:08:32 <elliott> yay, set nocp makes it work!
01:08:36 <elliott> that's why child porn is immoral.
01:08:59 <ais523> what sort of compatibility mode would stop a command working and replace it with nothing?
01:09:21 <elliott> ais523: vim in compatibility mode is really strictly vi
01:09:27 <elliott> for instance, : has no command completion
01:09:38 <elliott> "set nocp" basically turns vim into vim :P
01:16:00 <pikhq> Shame I don't have a terabyte drive handy.
01:16:19 <ais523> hmm, according to Reddit, PHP's ?: operator has broken associativity
01:16:25 <pikhq> As far as I'm aware, the only real way to "defragment" a filesystem is a mass copy to an empty filesystem.
01:16:35 <ais523> so instead of doing a ? "a" : b ? "b" : c ? "c" : d or whatever
01:16:35 <pikhq> At least, on Linux.
01:16:47 <ais523> you have to write it a ? b ? c ? "c" : d : b : a
01:16:56 <ais523> umm, a ? b ? c ? "c" : d : "b" : "a"
01:17:02 <pikhq> Aaaand because this filesystem here has been near-full at several different points, I have uberfragmentation.
01:17:10 <ais523> because I really screwed up my metasyntactic stuff there
01:17:43 -!- elliott_ has joined.
01:17:52 <elliott_> chat.freenode.net doesn't work
01:17:56 -!- elliott has quit (Disconnected by services).
01:17:58 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott.
01:18:03 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
01:18:03 -!- elliott has joined.
01:19:44 <pikhq> A mere 111 GiB free in my volume group ATM...
01:20:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:21:08 -!- javawizard has joined.
01:22:00 -!- iconmaster_ has joined.
01:24:32 -!- iconmaster_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:27:49 -!- jcp has quit (*.net *.split).
01:27:49 -!- ineiros has quit (*.net *.split).
01:27:49 -!- dbc has quit (*.net *.split).
01:27:51 -!- javawizard has changed nick to jcp.
01:28:40 -!- ineiros has joined.
01:28:57 -!- dbc has joined.
01:39:52 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:40:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
01:49:53 <Sgeo> elliott, do you think I should try Linux From Scratch?
01:54:04 -!- pikhq has joined.
02:24:29 <cheater00> I͞͞ ̷́a͏m͟͝ ͜͝t̢h͠e̴ e̕͘l҉e̕͝c͘҉t̀͏r̢o͡͡ń̴i͝c҉ ̷̸in̸̷͟car͜n͢á̕t̛io͘n̴̷ ͟͜o̧f̢ ̴̛th̴͞͝é́̕ ̀ć́͠há͡o̸̸̧s̕͢ fo̵r͘͝m̴͡ì̢̡n͜͝g͟͡ ͏͝ţh͏̵e͜͠ ̀h̀͏̵i̴̧ve͜͞m͏i͘nd̶͞ ҉
02:43:48 <pikhq> Theatrical rereleases of the Star Wars movies...
02:43:55 <pikhq> Starting with The Phantom Menace.
02:44:00 <pikhq> Seriously, that's the one you start with?
02:44:16 <pikhq> The one that people would rather jab out their eyes than see a second time?
02:45:05 <pikhq> Oh, yeah, and it's a 3D conversion.
02:45:05 <elliott> Hmm, how can I tell what inetd-alike I have installed on Debian
02:45:39 <pikhq> "Standard" 3D shooting is just a bit of a silly gimmick.
02:46:06 <pikhq> 3D *conversion* is just sending a two-year-old with crayons into an art gallery.
02:47:24 <pikhq> In the case of the prequels, an art gallery displaying someone throwing shit at a canvas, mind, but still.
02:47:43 <elliott> pikhq: The Minecraft soundtrack is out and it is amazing.
02:47:58 <elliott> s/soundtrack/WITH MUSIC FROM, AND MUSIC INSPIRED BY,/
02:48:38 <pikhq> And would it *kill* Lucas to freaking give a proper, unedited release to the original trilogy?
02:49:07 <pikhq> Literally the best extant copies are Laserdisc.
02:49:38 <pikhq> (okay, and a rip of the Laserdisc which got put on DVD, as a special feature on a 2008 DVD release)
02:59:18 -!- copumpkin has joined.
03:01:34 <elliott> 00014592522i[CPU0 ] LOCK prefix unallowed (op1=0x46, attr=0x0, mod=0x0, nnn=0)
03:01:35 <elliott> 00014592537i[CPU0 ] LOCK prefix unallowed (op1=0x46, attr=0x0, mod=0x0, nnn=0)
03:01:43 <elliott> Do you still have to fuck with segments in unreal mode? :P
03:01:54 <pikhq> And I *seem* to have magically fixed my cooling problems.
03:02:33 <pikhq> Okay, not so much "magic"; I did get rid of dust and work hard to improve airflow.
03:05:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:08:20 <Ilari> elliott: What instruction are you trying to use LOCK with and why?
03:08:47 <elliott> At least I like to blame all my problems on the BIOS.
03:08:49 <Ilari> Well, what instruction is it complaining about?
03:09:02 <elliott> Good question, good question, I guess it's time to figure out how Bochs' debugger works
03:09:59 <elliott> Ilari: In fairness, I'm doing something that I am pretty sure you are not allowed to do
03:10:18 <elliott> (Loading a GDT, setting the segment registers, then jumping into the code segment, but with 16-bit code.)
03:10:21 <elliott> (And without turning on protection.)
03:10:30 <elliott> it is probably interpreting my code as 32 bits...
03:10:44 <elliott> I wonder what that will mean, if I do not change cr0?!
03:11:16 <Ilari> op1=0x46? That would be INC (E)SI?
03:12:04 <elliott> Ilari: Well, like I said, 32-bit code segment, 16-bit code, is my bug...
03:12:30 <elliott> But now I'm busy wondering what it means to turn off A20, load a GDT, and jump into a 32-bit code segment, without ever flicking protection on in cr0.
03:12:49 <Ilari> AFAIK, how many bits the code has is determined by loaded CS segment descriptor.
03:13:06 <Ilari> And there's no way to load a 32-bit one in real mode.
03:13:21 <pikhq> elliott: A 32-bit code segment will often break in the BIOS, because it won't try to reload the high 16 bits of the instruction pointer at all.
03:13:27 <Ilari> Not even the way 32-bit data selectors can be active in real mode.
03:13:35 <elliott> pikhq: I didn't even have "bits 32" :P
03:13:59 <elliott> Ilari: Sure, but I've loaded a GDT. Or are you saying that segments will still be loaded in the real mode style, even with a GDT loaded, because the CR0 flag is not set?
03:14:07 <elliott> And so I jump into -- pwzoom -- hyperspace?
03:14:38 <Ilari> I don't think x86 uses GDT in real mode at all.
03:16:03 <Ilari> Actually, it can't because the way GDT works is totally incompatible with real-mode addressing.
03:18:16 <Ilari> Things like 0x0042 and 0x0043 both loading the same descriptor, etc.
03:19:51 <Ilari> So as far as I know, all code in real mode is 16 bits.
03:20:05 -!- zzo38 has joined.
03:20:21 <zzo38> I might have broke something in my OpenID (even though I didn't change it).
03:21:51 <elliott> Don't not change it, then.
03:22:16 <elliott> Ilari: Really what I want is a protected mode that can access the BIOS :P
03:22:36 <elliott> variable: Yeah, but it's what I *want*.
03:22:45 <elliott> variable: I'm trying to pack this into 510 bytes!
03:23:20 <variable> anyone know a better word than "Extracurricular activities" to describe things like ACM participation for a resume?
03:23:30 <elliott> Hmm, storing 6 bits of ascii-64 gives me 5 characters with two bits left over...
03:23:44 <elliott> variable: Academic associations?
03:24:55 <elliott> @ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~\x7f
03:25:08 <zzo38> As it turns out, I can still login to Hackiki.
03:25:34 <zzo38> elliott: Then you wouldd have to add a code that makes \x7f to ! and that would make it too large
03:26:07 <zzo38> Or, the other way, move the starting number backward a bit and omit the lowercase letters
03:26:11 <elliott> It seems that talking to the keyboard directly and doing my own translation is the most prudent, perhaps.
03:28:03 <zzo38> So instead of starting at @ you go !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_
03:28:11 <zzo38> Which means also you have numbers, which is also important.
03:29:18 <elliott> zzo38: Actually I do not need numbers.
03:29:25 <elliott> This is only for regular words.
03:29:52 <zzo38> But what about such words as 2DUP and stuff like that?
03:30:42 <zzo38> When I try to login on my own OpenID consumer I get the error message "Call to a member function on a non-object in f:\\html\\openid\\Auth\\OpenID\\Server.php" do you know what is wrong with this?
03:31:26 <elliott> It means you're using Windows to host a server, and that's wrong
03:33:02 <zzo38> It works everywhere else, just not on my own! I think I might have programmed the consumer program incorrectly!
03:35:22 <pikhq> elliott: Seems that what you'll need to do is actually go *fully* into protected mode before you have unreal mode running.
03:35:43 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, but unreal mode would end up more code than just talking to the keyboard directly in protected mode, I think, especially because I have to do the packing manually _anyway_.
03:35:57 <elliott> I have immense doubts this shit will work.
03:36:25 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
03:36:37 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, to get unreal mode you should just need to set and unset CR0.
03:36:59 <elliott> pikhq: I'm saying that the BIOS isn't useful enough to make the extra bytes there pay off.
03:37:17 <elliott> Admittedly though 16-bit code would be smaller.
03:37:18 <elliott> Woot, works in bochs but not qemu
03:37:22 <elliott> I'll work on the assumption that qemu is borked
03:37:30 <pikhq> Which is generally safe.
03:37:44 <pikhq> elliott: A generally safe assumption.
03:38:17 <Ilari> Heh. Isn't the VGABIOS Bochs uses from qemu?
03:38:36 <elliott> Dunno. All I know is that my screen writes aren't appearing in qemu.
03:38:51 <elliott> Maybe it doesn't think that modifying the GDT between two segment loads is the kind of thing a sane virtual machine should support.
03:38:53 <Ilari> And that VGABIOS is borked.
03:39:23 <Ilari> That has perfectly sane semantics.
03:39:50 <pikhq> Ilari: qemu often makes shortcuts in its emulation, though.
03:40:15 <pikhq> It's not so much an x86 emulator as it is an emulator of the subset of x86 that common OSes use.
03:40:18 <elliott> <Ilari> And that VGABIOS is borked.
03:40:38 <elliott> pikhq: If only common OSes weren't painfully slow in qemu :P
03:40:47 <pikhq> elliott: Compare with bochs.
03:40:55 <elliott> pikhq: Compare with VirtualBox :P But yeah.
03:41:02 <elliott> (I realise VB wasn't out at the time.)
03:41:39 <pikhq> And qemu doesn't implement its emulation in a way that it can take advantage of x86-on-x86-ness...
03:42:11 <pikhq> IIRC, it bytecode-compiles all the architectures it supports into a single bytecode, and then JITs that.
03:42:24 -!- zzo38 has joined.
03:42:46 <elliott> Gahh, it seems like the keyboard is sending separate key-down and key-up requests. Well. I knew that.
03:42:57 <elliott> But it's still irritating.
03:43:03 <zzo38> I found the problem with OpenID. The problem was the trust URL and return URL did not agree with each other.
03:44:50 <Sgeo> My browser hallucinated that LFS said to use kernel 2.6.35
03:45:19 <elliott> Which bit controls keydown vs keyup in a scancode
03:47:25 <Ilari> elliott: Bit 7 is clear on keydown, set on keyup (except for E0/E1 bytes).
03:47:38 <Ilari> E0/E1s are always E0 / E1.
03:47:47 <elliott> Ilari: You are a veritable font of knowledge. (What's E0/E1?)
03:48:08 <Sgeo> I started doing stuff JUST as LFS gets updated to 6.8
03:48:10 <Ilari> E0 is prefix for 2-byte keycode (E1 is 3-byte).
03:48:10 <elliott> What. The. Fuck... my keyboard code only works if I write to VGA memory in the poll-keyboard loop.
03:48:16 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
03:48:25 <elliott> It's not about cycle timing, adding in a "nop" doesn't make it work.
03:48:34 <elliott> And if I keep typing with the broken code the keyboard buffer fills up.
03:48:43 <Sgeo> elliott, I am entertaining the LFS people
03:48:50 <elliott> My bet is: Bochs only updates the keyboard controller when some "system" stuff is accessed, e.g. BIOS, interrupts, or say VGA memory.
03:48:55 <elliott> And since I have interrupts disabled...
03:49:09 <Ilari> Like Enter is 0x1C(0x9C), keypad enter is 0xE0 0x1C (0xE0 0x9C).
03:50:53 <pikhq> elliott: Perhaps it's simply not assuming anyone would actually directly poll the keyboard?
03:51:18 <elliott> So it was in *some* kind of busy loop.
03:52:23 <elliott> Not every write to VGA ram works.
03:52:41 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: terribl indeed
03:54:23 <Ilari> What about DOSBox? It has its own BIOS and AFAIK can load disk images.
03:56:10 <Ilari> Yup. IMGMOUNT and BOOT.
03:56:26 <Zwaarddijk> there's terrible lag between the srever my irc is on and my home computer :|
03:56:43 <Zwaarddijk> so I actually thought I was writing that in another channel, in response to a thing :|
03:57:35 <elliott> Ilari: heh, that sounds like fun
03:57:42 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: oh. i assumed you were drunk on absinthe
03:58:49 <pikhq> Oh, can't be much worse than any other hard liquor.
04:00:11 <Ilari> Ah, you don't need IMGMOUNT, just BOOT.
04:00:20 <Ilari> 'BOOT <imagefile>'.
04:08:45 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
04:10:21 -!- zzo38 has joined.
04:12:38 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:18:52 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:23:40 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
04:23:45 -!- pikhq has joined.
04:23:59 <Sgeo> Compiling binutils :D
04:25:56 <Sgeo> I'm probably going to need to sleep while it runs
04:41:17 -!- copumpkin has joined.
04:51:31 -!- zzo38 has joined.
04:58:49 <pikhq> Lectures on Youtbe > TV
05:03:04 <Mathnerd314> hmm... I want to try NixOS, but LFS or Arch looks easier
05:03:40 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
05:03:46 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
05:03:58 <Mathnerd314> clearly I should learn more about package management
05:06:09 <zzo38> Look at this: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/texwiki/view.php/0
05:09:18 <Sgeo> zzo38, have you ever done Linux From Scratch?
05:09:35 <zzo38> Sgeo: I have been planning to do so.
05:09:47 <zzo38> I will do so when I get another computer.
05:09:56 * Sgeo is doing it in VirtualBox
05:12:59 <zzo38> Would you like to try stuff with this wiki?
05:14:14 * Sgeo doesn't want to be owned
05:14:45 <zzo38> That "I own you!" is just something I put for testing... that file is not locked, so anyone with account can modify it.
05:15:01 <zzo38> (Select "[Admin]" to check if a file is locked.)
05:15:42 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
05:17:28 <zzo38> It no longer says "I own you!" Now it says "I invented this wiki."
05:20:30 <zzo38> Now what do you think of it?
05:20:37 -!- augur has joined.
05:27:09 <Sgeo> I think I need sleep
05:27:53 <zzo38> OK, probably I will sleep too.
05:28:00 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: now sleep).
05:47:29 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
06:11:24 <pikhq_> Man. It is *really* nice not having to do mental gymnastics just to accept both professed faith and reasonable scientific observations as true.
06:28:47 <pikhq_> Nicer still to not have to do mental gymnastics just to accept chapter 1 and chapter 2 of the same damned book simultaneously. :P
06:37:06 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
06:37:50 -!- cheater00 has joined.
07:03:20 -!- zeotrope has joined.
07:14:42 -!- asiekierka has joined.
07:37:12 -!- mtve has joined.
07:37:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
07:40:04 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
07:41:40 -!- cheater00 has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:18:24 <olsner> <elliott> but still, I'll ping olsner to ask about my insane idea :)
08:18:31 <olsner> and now he's gone, great
08:23:50 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 .).
08:27:48 <olsner> he doesn't seem to mention it anywhere near the line where he pings me, somewhat uselessly
09:08:58 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Really? The site gave me an enormously difficult trig differential. Something like d/dx 2 sin(2x). Maybe you and I have different definitions of "simple"?]]
09:13:05 <olsner> hmm, that is an easy one, right?
09:16:15 <fizzie> Yes, it's just 4 cos 2x.
09:17:56 -!- pikhq has joined.
09:18:08 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
09:20:22 <olsner> phew, then I got it right
09:30:17 <Phantom_Hoover> It's how one considers there to be easy trig differentials if that is tremendously difficult that puzzles me.
09:32:21 <fizzie> I think it's "(enormously difficult, trig) differential" there, not "enormously difficult (trig differential)".
09:35:40 <Phantom_Hoover> (That CAPTCHA thing is a bit iffy, though: there's only one variable, so I think they're just using the partial d to confuse people.)
09:36:30 <fizzie> Which captcha thing is this?
09:36:34 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
09:37:30 -!- cheater00 has joined.
09:37:31 -!- FireFly has joined.
09:37:41 <Phantom_Hoover> It gives you a relatively simple derivative and asks you to solve it.
09:48:13 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
10:03:08 <Lymia_> Phantom_Hoover, good way to keep out a large portion of the human popluation!
10:06:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:17:03 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:19:18 -!- cheater00 has joined.
10:43:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
10:43:33 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
10:55:49 -!- leonid has joined.
10:56:06 <leonid> i'm going to livestream my codegolfing
10:56:13 <leonid> i'm going to golf in ruby and python
11:09:20 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
11:25:32 <leonid> http://www.livestream.com/leonid
11:28:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
11:33:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
11:37:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
11:38:53 -!- oerjan has joined.
11:44:35 -!- asiekierka has joined.
11:45:21 <oerjan> <pikhq> Oh, yeah, and it's a 3D conversion.
11:45:27 <oerjan> now even more jar-jarring
11:48:26 <Phantom_Hoover> 02:03:08 <Lymia_> Phantom_Hoover, good way to keep out a large portion of the human popluation!
11:48:50 <Lymia_> There are times where you'd want that.
11:49:40 <Phantom_Hoover> And, with irony the likes of which has not been seen since that guy was crushed to death in a church while thanking God for saving his life, it allows most computers in.
11:51:50 <Lymia_> Is it polynomial-derivative level easy?
11:52:01 <Lymia_> I suppose you could complicate OCR enough to make that the main challenge.
11:52:09 <Lymia_> As opposed to the actual mathematics.
11:53:16 -!- Lymia_ has changed nick to Lymia.
11:53:19 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host).
11:53:19 -!- Lymia has joined.
11:53:27 <Lymia> How complex are the derivatives in question.
11:53:33 <oerjan> Lymia_: you cannot make a hard derivative with common functions.
11:53:54 <oerjan> it's a simple mechanical process, even for humans.
11:54:23 <oerjan> now integrals are worse - but still computers would beat humans by far
11:54:50 <oerjan> this is the kind of captcha that can only work because spammers would never bother to target it.
11:56:58 <oerjan> of course people who's brains don't really comprehend math could still consider a derivative difficult
11:58:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Lymia: have you considered grouping Lymia_ with Lymia?
12:01:34 <cheater00> oerjan: what's better, coq or agda
12:02:15 <oerjan> i haven't used either, but elliott would say coq is better i think
12:02:39 <cheater00> i'm not sure i want to think about what elliott would say
12:02:47 <oerjan> agda being too badly designed
12:03:47 <oerjan> iirc, agda is a dependent programming language that pretends to be a theorem prover without giving any of the convenience for it that coq does
12:04:28 <oerjan> also i said elliott because he is the first person here that i remember has been interested in them
12:05:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
12:05:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
12:05:53 <oerjan> cheater00: that would be so like him :D
12:06:03 <oerjan> note: proving things in coq is _still_, afaiu, a lot of work.
12:06:39 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, Agda doesn't really pretend to be a theorem prover as much as idiots make it out to be one.
12:07:32 <oerjan> clearly ais523 did it earlier, and then implemented it in hardware
12:07:51 <cheater00> no, he first implemented hardware in it
12:08:05 <cheater00> then took the software and implemented the software implementing hardware in hardware.
12:08:34 <cheater00> and then, this hardware was running software.
12:08:52 <cheater00> and it was a br*infuck virtual machine.
12:09:20 <oerjan> that's the only logical conclusion to that scenario.
12:11:30 <cheater00> oerjan: no, because according to the technological singularity theory, YOU are a computer program running inside that bf VM
12:11:55 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i wasn't, but you're obviously correct.
12:12:06 <cheater00> so you're being dreamt of, in fact, you're just an episodic nightmare ^^
12:12:22 <cheater00> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_Singularity
12:12:52 <oerjan> cheater00: sounds too likely for comfort.
12:15:13 <cheater00> oerjan: basically the omega point theory says that at some point the humanity reaches the ability to simulate everything we ourselves see as the universe. the whole real universe is then converted into a molecular computer.
12:15:41 <cheater00> oerjan: then it goes on to calculate the probability of whether it's yet to happen or has already happened, and the probability it has is overwhelming ^^
12:16:19 <oerjan> cheater00: i also find it likely that something singularity-like has already happened
12:16:44 <cheater00> but it's coming up - i'm going to the toilet
12:16:47 <oerjan> quite possibly before the universe was created
12:18:16 -!- pikhq has joined.
12:18:52 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
12:38:17 <cheater00> oerjan: i always wondered what was before the big bang!
12:39:00 <cheater00> oerjan: was it just a singularity where all the wave functions went into destructive interference making the sum of all of them the theta vector?
12:39:16 <oerjan> well that goes without saying.
12:40:32 <cheater00> i wonder how the laws of physics might have looked "before the big bang"
12:40:50 <cheater00> but you know, we can't even prove that the laws of physics are the same in all of our universe
12:41:12 <cheater00> it might very well be that we humans are in some sort of invisible sphere and suddenly as you exit it gravity stops working or something like that
12:48:05 <cheater00> oerjan: i just don't understand people who use vim and put their esc key in the upper left corner of the keyboard.
12:52:41 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
12:54:23 -!- cheater00 has joined.
12:54:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
13:22:06 -!- azaq23 has joined.
13:37:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
13:49:37 -!- Deewiant has quit (Quit: Maintenance).
14:00:26 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
14:01:43 -!- cheater00 has joined.
14:28:38 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
14:29:27 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
14:54:46 -!- Deewiant has joined.
15:01:56 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
15:11:58 <Phantom_Hoover> "I don't think that Debian can really compete with Gentoo. Sure it might be okay, but when it comes to dependencies, you probably are still going to have to get them all on your own. Or is there something like portage in the Debian world as well?" — http://web.archive.org/web/20040603174302/http://funroll-loops.org/
15:26:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
15:32:53 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
15:33:55 -!- pikhq has joined.
15:36:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:37:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:47:57 -!- asiekierka has joined.
15:58:35 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
15:58:40 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
16:28:22 -!- pikhq has joined.
16:28:23 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
16:41:51 <nooga> i want DEC PDP-11/40 front panel!
16:42:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:52:14 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, says like the kind of thing I'd say if I knew little about anything other than Gentoo
16:52:22 <Sgeo> Except I wouldn't write it to an email list
16:53:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, I'm assuming you would at least know the slightest thing about a rival OS before denigrating it.
16:53:47 <Sgeo> Hmm. I guess. I probably wouldn't include the insult
16:54:03 <Sgeo> Although I did recently insult HaXe due to a misunderstanding [I took it back though]
17:07:50 <olsner> "PHP : You can compile a haXe program to .php files." <- 'nuff said?
17:11:01 <olsner> it probably means something that the first page doesn't say anything about what it actually is
17:18:03 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:25:03 <nooga> gentoo is too problematic
17:25:23 <Sgeo> problematic how?
17:25:43 <nooga> my c2d laptop is too slow to compile everything
17:26:12 <nooga> i need a system up and usable for everyday tasks within less than 2 hours
17:26:44 <nooga> core 2 duo based laptop*
17:28:35 <nooga> i'd try gentoo on my pc
17:28:45 <nooga> with this new and shiny core i7
17:29:37 <nooga> but then the speed wouldn't be noticable since it has 24GB of RAM and SSD drives for system and recent data
17:29:45 <nooga> and everything works fast on it
17:29:46 <olsner> well, compiling will pretty much always take longer than not compiling
17:30:39 <nooga> even ubuntu in virtualbox under windows 7 runs fast on it
17:32:38 <Sgeo> And I thought I'd be happy with my 2GB of RAM
17:32:44 * Sgeo goes off into a corner
17:34:48 -!- elliott has joined.
17:37:03 <olsner> elliott: you were trying to say something about an "insane idea" earlier, so I'll just leave IRC now and read a book
17:37:19 <elliott> olsner: i was going to try lgdt without changing cr0
17:37:23 <Sgeo> Was it an insane idea to be rid of me forever?
17:37:26 <elliott> but it seems that how segment loading works depends on cr0
17:38:45 <olsner> btw, I read that segment limits aren't actually reset by reloading segment registers in real mode
17:40:20 <nooga> elliott: what are you doing?
17:41:45 <elliott> nooga: trying to stuff forth into 510 bytes
17:42:15 <nooga> yesterday i thought about implementing forth in asm
17:42:33 <elliott> doing it in 510 bytes with no operating system is not
17:42:46 <nooga> but then it turned out i'm too lazy and started watching photos of DEC PDPs for several hours
17:44:42 <nooga> elliott: are you using an assembler?
17:44:56 <elliott> I'm not quite insane enough to write machine code by hand.
17:45:44 <nooga> elliott: it's just numbers
17:46:07 <elliott> nooga: Yes, but it's a lot easier to use an assembler. And it removes no power from me: I regularly read the listing files and tweak my code to shorten them.
17:46:18 <nooga> Phantom_Hoover: ultimate haxorness feeling
17:46:19 <elliott> nooga: There's basically no advantage to writing in direct machine code.
17:46:29 <elliott> nooga: Oh, and nasm with -Ox does branch optimisation stuff.
17:46:36 <elliott> Which is a localised, but very useful, optimisation.
17:46:51 <elliott> (It just optimises branch offsets.)
17:46:55 <nooga> no, seriously, once i've build an OISC on a protoboard and set up 8 LEDs and 8 switches
17:47:03 <nooga> then i programmed it using the switches
17:47:03 <elliott> 10:40:54 <Lymia_> Phantom_Hoover, good way to keep out a large portion of the human popluation!
17:47:09 <elliott> looked like a space in the logs
17:48:01 <elliott> 12:43:21 <cheater00> i think ais did all that earlier
17:48:05 <elliott> um ais has done nothing with theorem proving systems at all.
17:48:15 <elliott> 12:43:52 <oerjan> note: proving things in coq is _still_, afaiu, a lot of work.
17:48:18 <elliott> well that's not really true.
17:48:29 <elliott> verifying functional libraries with it is rewarding.
17:48:32 <elliott> proving pure mathematical theorems is not
17:48:47 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
17:50:02 <elliott> oh gosh, oerjan getting "schooled" (ignorant bullshitted) on TEH SIGNULARITY Y0 by cheater
17:50:12 <nooga> elliott: are you limiting forth words somehow?
17:50:35 <elliott> 13:16:07 <cheater00> oerjan: i always wondered what was before the big bang!
17:50:35 <elliott> you and everyone else before they realised that's a stupid question.
17:52:05 <nooga> are you setting some limits on how such word should look like or rather permitting every string of characters without space
17:52:32 <nooga> and are you storing length or rather use null terminated words
17:53:06 <elliott> The name is going to fit into one 32-bit dword.
17:53:16 <elliott> 5 bits per char = 6 chars in a name with two bits left over
17:53:25 <elliott> = lowercase letters + 6 punctuation
17:53:30 <elliott> nooga: instead of storing the length, I'll 0-pad
17:53:35 <elliott> now, as I'm reading and translating scancodes
17:53:38 <elliott> the alphabet will be in scancode-order
17:53:43 <elliott> so it'll be padded out with zeroes which is the letter q
17:53:54 <elliott> so @ = @q = @qq = @qqq = @qqqq = @qqqqq
17:54:13 <elliott> nooga: I'm not sure how i'll read integers at this point
17:54:25 <elliott> I don't know how normal Forth behaves when you tell it to read a word and you give it some digits
17:54:28 <nooga> oh, i just wanted to ask about integers
17:54:31 <elliott> since 42 actually compiles to {INTEGER, 42} or similar
17:54:53 <elliott> nooga: I was thinking about making the first bit indicate whether the rest of the word is a name or a 31-bit integer, but really I have no idea how the word-reader should react to digit strings
18:01:05 -!- aloril_ has joined.
18:02:34 <elliott> "Never underestimate an Australians desire for beer. Now we have space beer we might even start our own space agency. We have our priorities right down here."
18:02:39 <elliott> Time until first kangaroo in space...
18:10:47 <pikhq> elliott: Depends: do you mean kangaroo meat?
18:11:03 <pikhq> Probably going to be a while, then.
18:11:35 <pikhq> No point launching a kangaroo into space until you have enough space in your space station to have kangaroo kickboxing in space.
18:12:56 <elliott> pikhq: Well, they just have to invent the space barbie first.
18:13:05 <elliott> Since they have space beer --
18:13:08 <elliott> http://www.sify.com/news/oz-firms-develop-first-beer-that-can-be-consumed-in-space-news-international-ldbnEpdabje.html
18:13:13 <elliott> (The comment I quoted was from the reddit thread of that.)
18:14:00 -!- lambdabot has joined.
18:23:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:28:47 <nooga> elliott: how big is this forth at the moment
18:29:12 <elliott> nooga: it isn't even a forth :)
18:29:18 <elliott> I'm trying to talk to the keyboard at this stage
18:31:54 -!- azaq23 has joined.
18:36:46 <Gregor> I think my oak soda needs less sugar.
18:41:18 <pikhq> I think your sugar needs less oak soda.
18:41:34 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/03/05/exclusive-nasa-scientists-claims-evidence-alien-life-meteorite/#comment
18:42:09 <pikhq> Only if we can get all of Fox News there first.
18:46:30 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:55:17 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
18:55:41 <myndzi> > He gave FoxNews.com early access to the out-of-this-world research, published late Friday evening in the March edition of the Journal of Cosmology.
18:55:42 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `of'
18:55:56 <myndzi> i'm not sure i trust the science of someone who would do this
18:56:33 <pikhq> myndzi: At least he actually sent it to a peer-reviewed journal *as well*.
18:57:01 <myndzi> but it sounds like a publicity play
18:57:21 <myndzi> “The exciting thing is that they are in many cases recognizable and can be associated very closely with the generic species here on earth,”
18:57:26 <pikhq> And if this turns out to be BS, his career is probably ruined.
18:57:32 <myndzi> "they look an awful lot like earth life!"
18:57:45 <myndzi> lol tell that to whatsisname with the vaccination-autism shit
18:58:05 <myndzi> he lost his license to practice, got thoroughly debunked, and his original article was withdrawn
18:58:12 <myndzi> and he's still doing well for himself it seems
18:58:18 <pikhq> I'd consider that a ruined career.
18:58:31 <myndzi> andrew wakefield, that's it
18:58:35 <pikhq> He is still doing well for himself, only because there exist stupid people with money.
18:58:53 <myndzi> at least not in a tangible sense
18:58:55 <pikhq> But he is horribly unlikely to ever do science again.
18:59:05 <myndzi> it's arguable he wasn't doing science before
18:59:41 <pikhq> Anyways, point is, now his career depends on the whim of crackpots.
19:01:00 <myndzi> “Maybe life was seeded on earth -- it developed on comets for example, and just landed here when these things were hitting the very early Earth,” Shostak speculated. “It would suggest, well, life didn’t really begin on the Earth, it began as the solar system was forming.”
19:01:14 <myndzi> obviously god got bored one day, so he invested snowballs with life and played a game of darts
19:03:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Seriously, after reading the SCP wiki I didn't sleep at all for an entire night.
19:03:35 <myndzi> scared of dead alien bacteria?
19:04:02 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Vell, ve simply remove ze amygdala.
19:04:47 <myndzi> trepanation for fun and profit
19:05:02 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Not without damaging other portions of the brain.
19:05:15 <pikhq> Like, say, the neocortex.
19:07:18 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:07:22 <pikhq> How do you feel about abstract thought?
19:07:41 <Ilari> Facebook comments system for other sites... Anybody else think of "security nightmare"?
19:08:51 <Sgeo> myndzi, http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/
19:13:14 <elliott> It's like OpenID but centralised!
19:13:49 <Ilari> At least OpenID doesn't have to be a security nightmare.
19:14:29 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:17:16 <pikhq> All of the Web stuff is a security and taste nightmare.
19:17:45 -!- augur has joined.
19:20:02 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: well, of course you can't sleep if you're up all night reading SCP instead :)
19:20:35 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, but I stopped, and was then incapable of sleeping
19:21:13 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:23:15 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:23:23 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:23:38 -!- elliott has joined.
19:42:23 <elliott> oerjan: I wonder if some kind of modified Burro couldn't fit this
19:42:29 <elliott> no pasting! paste is immoral
19:42:58 <elliott> oerjan: like the inverse of (a/b) is (b'/a')
19:43:03 <oerjan> well kayak sort of does reverse(P) = P^-1
19:43:11 <Sgeo> Hey Phantom_Hoover, there's a device that might make improvements to you
19:43:23 <oerjan> although it doesn't work with non-termination
19:43:25 <elliott> all the basic commands have to become two characters, of course
19:43:32 <elliott> unless they're their own inverse
19:43:35 <Sgeo> I don't remember the details
19:43:42 <elliott> so + has to be ab and - has to be ba, say
19:43:57 <elliott> < has to be xy, > has to be yx
19:44:01 <oerjan> elliott: it might very well be possible to find a set of basic commands that _are_ their own inverse
19:44:11 <elliott> oerjan: I think I just did it with reverse(P)
19:44:29 <elliott> burro where +, -, < and > are two chars, and )b/a( means (a/b)
19:44:39 <oerjan> elliott: take a look at kayak
19:44:41 <elliott> actually )a/b( means (a/b)
19:44:52 <elliott> oerjan: i think this was actually my inspiration :)
19:45:02 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, it has robotic arms
19:45:30 <elliott> oerjan: hmm is )a/b( ambiguous with (a/b) :)
19:45:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I've seen some of his other videos: he draws holograms by hand.
19:45:52 <oerjan> elliott: kayak doesn't quite reverse on brackets
19:45:57 <elliott> the other parsing has three /s
19:46:23 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I didn't know the hologram thing
19:46:33 <Sgeo> But I've seen his hypotheses about traffic
19:46:57 <oerjan> elliott: hm a command which does (a,b) = (b+1, a-1)
19:47:06 <oerjan> that would be self-inverse
19:47:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUy8lELWhJg&feature=relmfu
19:47:37 <oerjan> and then you combine with other swapping things
19:48:22 <elliott> oerjan: are you saying that
19:48:37 <elliott> oerjan: i don't see how this gets around your proof
19:49:23 -!- nooga_ has joined.
19:49:45 <oerjan> elliott: i'm just considering how to make all the base commands self-inverse, it won't apply to combined ones of course
19:50:09 <elliott> oerjan: could it if you made a sufficiently complex sequencing command? :-P
19:50:31 <oerjan> a = -a is an obvious one
19:51:25 <oerjan> those two combined still don't change overall parity though
19:51:30 <elliott> oerjan: if you have a stack then P(x) := if TOS = x then pop else push x is an obvious one
19:51:34 * Sgeo wonders how well or poorly KT-AT would deal with those holograms
19:51:58 <oerjan> elliott: um no, what if there are two x on top
19:52:32 <elliott> oerjan: P(10)P(10)P(10) === P(10)
19:52:36 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, increment your "Sgeo facepalm avoid" counter.
19:52:38 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, did you just call her God?
19:52:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: :()^ is TURING COMPLETE! EVERYBODY PARTY???? | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:52:49 <oerjan> elliott: um are you implying you _cannot_ have two consecutive equal elements on the stack? i suppose that might work
19:52:56 <elliott> oerjan: i'm asking how it matters
19:53:15 -!- elliott has set topic: DANGEROUS AARDVARKOIDS | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:53:31 <oerjan> elliott: it matters because if there are two x on top of stack then two of that command pops both
19:53:58 <elliott> oerjan: ah. well, just have P be the only function to push
19:54:03 <elliott> then there's no way to get TOS = SOS
19:55:06 <elliott> oerjan: of course your "P(a) P(b) -> P(b+1) P(a-1)" (using P() to do underload-style stack notation) will need adjusting
19:55:12 <elliott> in case b == a-2 or similar
19:55:59 <Sgeo> Her vision isn't exactly great.
19:56:38 <oerjan> elliott: i wasn't imagining a stack language for that one, anyway
19:57:03 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, yes.
19:57:10 <Sgeo> Although it's a bit worse than that
19:57:23 <elliott> oerjan: if even then +1 else -1
19:58:00 <Sgeo> I can tell you that, but it would be a lie.
20:00:39 <oerjan> commands that flip a flag under some condition (which must not involve that flag) is an obvious candidate
20:00:48 -!- impomatic has joined.
20:01:09 <oerjan> in fact i think your if even then +1 else -1 can be considered that way
20:01:18 <Sgeo> Use of only half of her good eye
20:01:25 <elliott> oerjan: hm surely with such a self-cancelling language, reverse(P) becomes the inverse of P where atomic elements of P (including compound commands) are considered as one element
20:01:31 <elliott> oerjan: and reversing inside compounds
20:01:36 * impomatic wonders if elliott's forth is complete yet?
20:01:39 <oerjan> elliott: it's just flipping the last bit always :D
20:01:47 <elliott> impomatic: it's difficult man :D
20:01:55 <elliott> oerjan: if odd then +1 else -1!
20:02:08 <oerjan> ...that's a bit more awkward, with all that carry
20:03:02 <Sgeo> In terms of holograms, as opposed to "how bad is vision", I don't think it makes much difference
20:03:57 <oerjan> elliott: however recall how burro needs to disallow all but the global loop to avoid the non-termination issue
20:04:09 <Sgeo> Do you really need to know all these details
20:05:08 <Sgeo> What is there to judge?
20:05:24 <oerjan> elliott: instead of ordinary brackets, the language needs to use something isomorphic to the alternating " ' quoting style
20:05:41 <cheater00> elliott was pasting my quotes and talking shit about me because he's insecure
20:05:45 <oerjan> that way you don't need to change any characters
20:05:56 <cheater00> <elliott> 13:16:07 <cheater00> oerjan: i always wondered what was before the big bang!
20:05:56 <cheater00> <elliott> you and everyone else before they realised that's a stupid question.
20:06:01 <elliott> oerjan: you could define 0 as _|_ :D
20:06:09 <elliott> and then an infinite loop is the inverse of every program!
20:06:12 <Sgeo> As in, one side of the field of vision
20:06:40 <oerjan> elliott: erm... that's not the kind of inverse we are considering here
20:07:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, obligatory jibe: at least that explains why she wanted to date you!
20:08:34 <Sgeo> I think that would have been better if it were ever actually clear that she wanted to date me
20:09:07 <oerjan> other than that, i'm going to ignore this.
20:09:09 <Sgeo> That's even worse, I think. Even the blind don't want to date me QQ
20:09:35 <oerjan> now if i could just manage to write in the right window, everything would be perfect
20:10:35 <oerjan> (wait no, it wouldn't.)
20:10:53 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:11:12 <elliott> oerjan: but but it would bring about world peace :(
20:13:10 <oerjan> elliott: oh. okay then.
20:13:21 <zzo38> What would bring about world peace?
20:13:27 <zzo38> I do not think something would.
20:13:56 <Sgeo> zzo38, it was a joke
20:14:01 <Sgeo> <oerjan> now if i could just manage to write in the right window, everything would be perfect
20:14:04 <Sgeo> oerjan> (wait no, it wouldn't.)
20:14:13 <pikhq> DEATH OF ALL THE PUNY MORTALS
20:14:45 <oerjan> some war droid Sgeo is infatuated with
20:15:44 <nooga_> i'm infuriated with it
20:15:53 * Sgeo is most certainly NOT infatuated with PHP!
20:16:37 -!- sebbu has joined.
20:16:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
20:16:37 -!- sebbu has joined.
20:17:01 <Sgeo> N..not .. not currently
20:17:20 <cheater00> Sgeo: oh, i'm sorry, i hope you guys get together
20:17:33 <cheater00> Sgeo: did you break up or something?
20:18:01 <Sgeo> I have a crush, some reason to believe it's not returned, some to believe it might be
20:18:07 <Sgeo> I'm just confused
20:18:48 <Phantom_Hoover> She's an idiot and you're clearly just indulging your previously-stated attraction to girls who have undergone some kind of hardship.
20:18:52 <cheater00> i've got a hint for you if you allow me to give you one
20:19:28 <cheater00> don't let it drag on for too long or else you'll become the best friend
20:19:35 <zzo38> I made up a wiki for TeXnicard, now.
20:19:44 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:19:47 <Sgeo> cheater00, that may have already happened
20:20:05 <cheater00> Sgeo: well there are multiple ways out of it
20:20:10 <zzo38> You have to notify me if you want an account (even if you just want to try things with it)
20:21:02 <zzo38> Accounts is all logging in by OpenID.
20:21:31 <cheater00> Sgeo: one way is... you usually start spending time together and have some sort of habit of doing things
20:21:50 <cheater00> like you'll call her up every thursday, or you guys will watch movies or go eat lunch
20:22:35 <cheater00> next time this happens, show up late and be real irritated and keep it up like that, and be generally a bit pissed off about her (because hey, there's a reason for it anyways)
20:22:52 <Sgeo> cheater00, how about I not be an asshole?
20:23:00 <oerjan> cheater00: i _just_ told elliott in the other window i didn't think you needed banning, and then you start doing this.
20:23:05 <zzo38> How many of you have OpenID, I am curious to know that?
20:23:28 <oerjan> Sgeo: he is obviously trolling you.
20:24:45 <cheater00> Sgeo: anyways, then she'll start asking herself what's going on, and when she asks you what's going on you can go all out
20:24:53 <zzo38> cheater00: I also think you do not need banning. At least, that is simply my opinion.
20:25:10 <cheater00> zzo38: i have no idea why i would need banning
20:25:12 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, trying to give me "advice".
20:25:32 <elliott> i'm not sure oerjan still thinks that. :)
20:25:37 <Sgeo> cheater00, or I can just ask her directly if she sees me in terms of being a friend, or more
20:25:47 <Sgeo> That's my current plan
20:25:53 <cheater00> Sgeo: that's the worst thing you can do
20:26:02 <cheater00> this moves you from best friend to creep
20:26:29 <cheater00> see the thing is that being best friend means on emotional scale you are somewhere of a +2 for her
20:26:40 <Sgeo> I think, secretly crushing on someone who sees me as a friend is also "creep"
20:27:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, you don't need to worry about *becoming* a creep.
20:27:27 <cheater00> what you want is to get her to react to you, romance works in highs and lows, sometimes you have to provoke a low to get a high afterwards
20:28:06 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: smooth
20:28:30 <cheater00> and when you're best friend it's this curse impossible to break through by doing only positive things, because she'll always think "oh, he's such a nice boy, i love having him as a friend"
20:29:03 <cheater00> because you're always dependable and nice and courteous and stuff
20:29:39 <cheater00> but then you start noticing that girls like assholes
20:29:56 <cheater00> and it's not really about that, it's just about the fact that the right boyfriend for a girl makes her life interesting
20:30:30 <cheater00> a bit of excitement and emotional drama is definitely well placed in a balanced relationship between two people who were not lobotomized
20:30:50 <Sgeo> The impression I get from reading various things is that the correct way to avoid into the "nice guy" trap is to be more direct, not to be an asshole
20:31:12 <cheater00> some people see being direct as being an asshole
20:31:26 * Phantom_Hoover is confident that he will never be viewed as a nice guy.
20:31:39 <cheater00> but the problem here is, 99 times out of 100 when you go to her directly and ask her what she feels it will turn out to be pleading
20:31:42 <Sgeo> That's a mistaken impression that I'd imagine "nice guys" might have
20:31:54 <cheater00> and the problem there is that she's emotionally neutral towards you
20:32:19 <cheater00> Sgeo: you want to do it when she's very emotionally biased towards you
20:32:29 <Phantom_Hoover> DO NOT TAKE RELATIONSHIP ADVICE FROM A MAN WHO LIES ABOUT SPYING ON 14-YEAR-OLDS IN BALLET LESSONS.
20:32:38 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, what?
20:33:08 <cheater00> either because you give her the most amazing day of her life (not likely) or because you pull the right strings and get her confused and a bit angry about what's going on (it also gets her to appreciate you more)
20:33:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, he claimed he lived in some big house wherein ballet lessons took place.
20:33:15 <Sgeo> cheater00, I want to know what she feels, not what I trick her into feeling
20:33:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Given his general disposition on IRC, I call bullshit on that bit at least.
20:33:32 <cheater00> Sgeo: you don't trick people into feeling things.
20:33:46 <cheater00> Sgeo: you just let their feelings free by doing what you do.
20:34:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Put you on so that I don't have to listen to this crap.
20:34:27 <cheater00> Sgeo: there's no reason to shy away from the bad feelings (actually i wouldn't call that bad, because it's just constructive chaos)
20:34:46 <cheater00> Sgeo: simply because good things come out of it.
20:35:16 <cheater00> Sgeo: if you ask her what she feels you'll come off as a creep, because she's grown up and she can give you all the signs of what she feels towards you
20:35:27 <cheater00> no signs = no feeling, or ambivalence
20:35:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Damn the proximity of the backspace and return keys. Anyway.
20:35:36 <zzo38> Not using X is a waste of paper because then xdvi won't work.
20:36:45 <Sgeo> cheater00, I'm not putting you on ignore, but I won't be responding after thiis.
20:37:38 <zzo38> Did you agree or disagree with me about that?
20:39:11 <zzo38> cheater00: About X and xdvi, that is (I told you just in case you thought I meant something else)
20:39:49 <cheater00> zzo38: i find a graphical user interface is indispensable for, well, graphical things which dvi is after all
20:40:50 <pikhq> I find that every interface sucks.
20:40:56 <pikhq> Some more than others.
20:41:17 <zzo38> Even though, when I am on that computer (at FreeGeek), I rarely use anything other than the command shell (often I use multiple tabs), and Firefox (since it is required for redmine), and xdvi (so that I can preview the file before printing it).
20:41:25 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I think you are correct.
20:42:07 <zzo38> pikhq: That is why I would write my own window manager instead. (It still isn't good; but it is better than the other one, at least for me it is better than the other one)
20:42:28 <pikhq> Windows probably has the most damnable set of interfaces, though...
20:43:00 <pikhq> As it is not even considered *desirable* to have an interface consistent with the other ones there. Gag.
20:45:33 <zzo38> That is because everyone disagree about everything, and it make it mixed up, also that some things works badly in Windows which is why they try to do it in different way
20:46:31 <pikhq> Also, I have real issues with how tabs are done...
20:46:37 <cheater00> pikhq: i'm happy that ubuntu is ditching x
20:46:58 <pikhq> Namely, how it damned well isn't the application's job.
20:47:16 <pikhq> cheater00: Not yet; as soon as Wayland is stable.
20:47:25 <pikhq> At which point essentially everyone will ditch X.
20:48:33 <cheater00> pikhq: yeah, i'm talking about purely their plan to do it
20:48:49 <cheater00> pikhq: and that they allocated resources towards that actually happening
20:49:03 <pikhq> cheater00: Not just Ubuntu that's doing it.
20:49:34 <pikhq> Still. Damned good thing.
20:50:14 <zzo38> Can Athena widgets work on Wayland?
20:50:24 -!- Patashu has joined.
20:50:29 <pikhq> zzo38: X can work on Wayland.
20:50:32 <zzo38> I would like to use Athena widgets but a bit modified for keyboard use too.
20:50:41 <cheater00> zzo38: wayland can have an X inside it
20:50:55 <cheater00> but of course, you don't want that because it's like windows 98 mode in win xp.
20:51:04 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, I don't think you understand just how much people will cling to things that are familiar.
20:51:27 <elliott> windows xp has no windows 98 mode
20:51:33 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think you understand how little this affects the morons.
20:53:19 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: X, as far as these people are concerned (and, really, as far as most programs are concerned), is just the thing that puts pixels on the screen.
20:53:26 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Wayland does that with less bullshit.
20:53:55 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, I have seen at least one blog post bitching about Wayland.
20:54:09 <pikhq> About the only thing that they'll actually *notice* is that all of a sudden, Linux graphics work better.
20:54:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Does this mean I won't have to suffer terrible stability in my drivers any more?
20:55:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: they'll be DRI-based, so yes.
20:55:41 <pikhq> Wayland still uses some of the same driver stack.
20:55:53 <zzo38> Can a window manager be written with Wayland?
20:55:57 <elliott> most X drivers don't use DRI
20:56:10 <pikhq> zzo38: Full-on compositing manager.
20:56:23 <Sgeo> X is dying?!?!
20:56:24 <Phantom_Hoover> *note: every time I conclude this I shrink back due to innate stinginess.
20:56:43 <Sgeo> The authors of The UNIX Haters' Manual are crying.
20:56:44 <pikhq> elliott: They'll probably be forced to in not-too-long.
20:56:47 <Sgeo> [Out of happiness]
20:56:55 <elliott> pikhq: or just refuse to support wayland
20:56:58 <elliott> thus stopping it ever being adopted
20:57:24 <zzo38> And how does it deal with mouse pointer?
20:57:28 <pikhq> elliott: Not likely. *When* Ubuntu starts shipping with it out-of-the-box, what do you think they'll do?
20:57:40 <elliott> pikhq: Ubuntu won't if the proprietary drivers aren't there.
20:57:50 <pikhq> elliott: Ubuntu isn't sane.
20:57:53 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I can't get the whole Herobrine log for today to load.
20:57:58 <elliott> pikhq: Ubuntu value their market share.
20:58:00 <pikhq> elliott: Remember, these guys switched to Pulseaudio before it even worked.
20:58:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Try refreshing a lot.
20:58:18 <elliott> Wayland without drivers will not "work".
20:58:30 <pikhq> elliott: Besides which, this issue will only really affect Nvidia.
20:58:44 <zzo38> Can you do black/white/transparent mouse pointer with some built-in, with it?
20:58:51 <pikhq> *Presuming* the ATI drivers improve a bit.
20:59:10 <Ilari> Watched "The End of Suburbia". Doesn't look good for the US. :-/
20:59:32 <pikhq> Ilari: Yeah, the next 20 years or so will probably *hurt*.
21:00:32 <zzo38> If I use Wayland, I would have to change some things, including window manager, and mouse pointers, keyboard, make a library that does it with fixed-pitch bitmap font, widget, etc.
21:01:37 <zzo38> I do not want windows drawn with shadow, with glass, etc
21:03:06 <cheater00> i think you can expect wayland to be very gnome-like.
21:03:06 <Ilari> One major goal would be to avoid full-blown systems meltdown. If that happens in wide areas... The death toll woll be horrible. :-/
21:03:08 * Phantom_Hoover remembers that Scotland has several services dependent on Westminster subsidising us for no good reason.
21:03:26 <zzo38> I should have no 3D windows, no dragging icons between windows....
21:03:31 <zzo38> Maybe I should just use X instead.
21:03:58 <Phantom_Hoover> (Free tuition and medication being a large part of this.)
21:04:05 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:04:12 <Sgeo> pikhq, what's this about switching to PulsAudio?
21:04:22 <Phantom_Hoover> (There are students I know protesting Scotland's tuition rises. I find them extremely obnoxious.)
21:05:09 <cheater00> pikhq: have nvidia somehow said they don't support wayland?
21:06:10 <pikhq> Wayland *only* replaces freaking X. Still going to have Qt or GTK on top...
21:06:12 <pikhq> cheater00: I dunno.
21:08:29 <cheater00> pikhq: it doesn't really replace x, yet it does
21:08:35 <cheater00> pikhq: it's a bit weird isn't it :D
21:09:17 <pikhq> cheater00: It replaces X entirely. People seem to have this bizarre misconception that replacing X involves replacing the entire GUI stack.
21:09:35 <pikhq> When really it's just replacing the part of the GUI stack that causes pain and agony.
21:10:02 <cheater00> pikhq: but not really because wayland is something that x can PLUG INTO
21:10:26 <cheater00> so it's more like, it replaces the part of X which does direct interfacing with the hardware..
21:11:06 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
21:11:29 <pikhq_> cheater00: Yeah, but now X serves as a compatibility layer.
21:11:57 <pikhq_> Rather than the center of all hardware interaction, based around 80s conceptions of what needed to be done.
21:12:07 <pikhq_> Oh, and absolutely *retarded* conceptions of how to do it.
21:12:17 <cheater00> so is gtk going to get implemented for x?
21:12:30 <pikhq_> GTK already has a Wayland backend.
21:12:53 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:12:56 <pikhq_> It's really not hard to make one...
21:13:05 <cheater00> what about existing apps - they're mostly compiled with shared usage of gtk right?
21:13:19 <cheater00> so basically switching my gtk out with the wayland version should make all gtk apps use wayland?
21:13:27 <pikhq_> Qt also has a Wayland backend in the works.
21:13:50 <pikhq_> Even better, GTK now has switchable backends. Environment variable and voila, your GTK apps will use Wayland.
21:14:07 <cheater00> pay-for operating systems would need you to recompile everything or something
21:14:34 <cheater00> and this means of course waiting 5 years for the next os iteration and praying they do it this time around
21:15:12 <pikhq_> Also, this should allow *significantly* better graphics performance.
21:15:38 <cheater00> in turn maybe high performance graphics could come to linux
21:15:44 <cheater00> including, you know, computer games
21:15:57 <pikhq_> Hooray, cutting out pointless context switches.
21:15:58 <cheater00> and as much as i hate to admit, this is the one step needed to make linux mainstream
21:18:01 <cheater00> pikhq_: i think if computer games came to linux it could really show how much more performance you can get from the system
21:21:26 <variable> Ah - the ubuntu non-network-transparent X replacement?
21:21:37 <pikhq_> s/Ubuntu/Freedesktop.org/
21:21:51 <pikhq_> Ubuntu isn't responsible for it, they merely intend to use it in the future.
21:22:02 <Phantom_Hoover> variable, you say "non-network-transparent" like it's a bad thing,
21:22:11 <elliott> variable: it's not ubuntu's
21:22:21 <elliott> variable: also, network-transparency should be done at the toolkit level
21:22:24 <elliott> which is what is happening
21:22:28 <pikhq_> Also, it's not *inherently* non-network-transparent.
21:22:30 <elliott> that allows for MUCH more efficient network-transparency
21:22:39 <elliott> with much less complexity in the server, and more speed too
21:22:43 <pikhq_> The toolkits *or* the compositer server can easily do network transparency.
21:23:40 <pikhq_> variable: Basically, Wayland is a new API for programs to communicate with a display server, with *signficantly* reduced complexity.
21:23:56 <variable> pikhq_: yes - I figured that once cheater00 said its "Not X" :-)
21:24:11 <pikhq_> Because, in essence, every bit of complexity in X has either been moved elsewhere or made irrelevant.
21:24:15 <elliott> but at least that one is correct
21:24:30 <variable> I was involved with X for a bit, supplied some patches and whatnot. I'll have to check out wayland
21:25:12 <elliott> X is a good contender for my least favourite program
21:25:43 <elliott> "The X server has to be the biggest program I've seen that doesn't do anything for you." --ken thompson
21:25:43 <variable> I've also seen some talk about "X12" but meh - I'll look into wayland :-)
21:29:01 <pikhq_> X12 almost certainly isn't happening.
21:29:25 <pikhq_> There is basically nothing in the X design that deserves to remain.
21:29:57 <pikhq_> It still boggles the mind that X11 traditionally has literally all the device drivers in the X server.
21:33:58 -!- zeotrope has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:37:44 <olsner> wayland seems very similar to android's graphics system
21:38:54 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:39:01 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:50:01 <elliott> Is Guile 1.8 the same as Guile 2? X-D
22:17:10 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:23:20 <olsner> "madvise - give advice about use of memory"
22:23:53 <oerjan> while cackling maniackally
22:24:21 <olsner> hmm, actually, that's probably correct... I'm guessing the verb is spelled with s and the noun with c
22:24:44 <elliott> advise the advice that it's very helpful
22:25:39 <olsner> but it does look like a case of misspelled api that has to be supported forever
22:25:46 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:26:14 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
22:27:29 <elliott> olsner: just turn it into a neologism, like referer
22:28:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the referring page
22:28:58 <elliott> i.e. the page the link you clicked was on
22:29:46 <oerjan> rfrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
22:29:58 <olsner> but this is odd, sbrk fails after allocating only 130MB - for some reason I just get a miniscule piece of heap between the stack and the last piece of the executable
22:31:40 <elliott> olsner: what are you doing? :p
22:31:59 <olsner> making my own malloc, of course
22:33:07 <olsner> I'm going to rewrite it to use mmap for everything, but was trying to postpone that and live a little more conveniently with a contiguous heap as long as I can get away with it
22:38:11 -!- wareya_ has joined.
22:40:07 <elliott> olsner: use some fancy functional structure for mmap! :-P
22:41:00 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:41:26 <Sgeo> Dear God the Slackware FAQ is old
22:42:19 <olsner> elliott: no, but I am currently using purely functional data structures as my guide to all things data structurey
22:42:35 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:45:45 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Referer is an infamous misspelling in the HTTP spec.
22:46:31 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referer :)
22:50:03 -!- Deewiant has joined.
23:00:31 <elliott> Hey Deewiant, what does it mean if Guile segfaults on any evaluation
23:01:14 <oerjan> clearly it's an evil scheme
23:04:25 <oerjan> these pesky kids and their pun recognition
23:10:30 <elliott> oerjan: what does it mean if i and the.
23:11:53 <oerjan> how could i possibly know the
23:12:51 <Sgeo> "To amend the Clean Air Act to prohibit the Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency from promulgating any regulation concerning, taking action relating to, or taking into consideration the emission of a greenhouse gas to address climate change, and for other purposes"
23:14:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:14:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host).
23:14:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:14:42 <oerjan> What is a really bad idea, Alex?
23:16:23 <elliott> oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan
23:16:26 <elliott> what does it mean if the guile and the
23:17:08 <oerjan> it means you need more badgers.
23:17:15 <elliott> oerjan: i'm using ALL the badgers
23:18:00 <pikhq> Badger badger badger badger
23:18:09 * oerjan gives pikhq some cough drops
23:19:01 <oerjan> repsils with orange taste
23:19:17 <pikhq> oerjan: Insufficiently friendly with fishermen!
23:19:33 <oerjan> i didn't know you to be a fisherman
23:19:49 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
23:23:02 <oerjan> elliott: LSD? are you mad?
23:23:12 <oerjan> just a tiny bit of cyanide, is all.
23:23:34 <elliott> oerjan: Oh come on, you can't keep the trolls and kill off all our valuable assets :P
23:24:49 <elliott> oerjan: sheesh, stop ruling the channel by way of homoeroticism
23:25:07 <oerjan> who _are_ our neighbors, anyway?
23:25:18 <elliott> In the United Kingdom and Sweden markets Renckitt Benckiser a throat tablet under the name Strepsils with exactly the same package as the Norwegian Repsils (apart from the first two letters). Also, an "S" which is part of the package design is continuing on the Norwegian seal. The name comes from Strepsils Streptococcusbakterien. Unlike the Norwegian Strepsils lozenges contain also amylmetakresol and 2.4-diklorobenzyl who has a mild antiseptic ef
23:25:18 <elliott> fect. Strepsils brand name was bought from Boots in 2006 and has been in production from 1958.
23:25:25 <elliott> oerjan: The rest of freenode.
23:25:58 <oerjan> #eroticism and #estrogen
23:26:13 <elliott> It doesn't count if the channels don't actually exist :P
23:26:13 <oerjan> i'm sure they're _very_ scared
23:26:23 <oerjan> i'm afraid to use /list
23:26:33 <elliott> oerjan: well. you may want to
23:26:45 <elliott> (echo 'USER joidsfoi joisdfo oisdjf oijsdf'; echo 'NICK odjfisdjf'; echo LIST) | nc irc.freenode.net 6667 >list
23:26:57 <elliott> actually forgot you don't use a real os there
23:27:12 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
23:29:25 -!- augur_ has joined.
23:30:29 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:35:07 <elliott> 07:43:07 <Sgeo> I pledge, for this year, to only learn programming languages that an employer will be likely to have me use.
23:35:07 <elliott> 07:43:09 <Sgeo> Who is with me?
23:35:13 <Phantom_Hoover> http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2011/03/a-virus-so-large-it-gets-viruses.ars
23:35:15 <elliott> LET'S RALLY BEHIND DOING BORING SHIT TO GET TERRIBLE JOBS
23:35:24 <elliott> it would be better than his current "learn every fucking shitty language ever"
23:35:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: thought it was referring to computotron viruses
23:35:54 <elliott> 08:11:08 --- join: ais523 (n=chatzill@chillingi.eee.bham.ac.uk) joined #esoteric
23:35:54 <elliott> 08:11:19 <ais523> msg nickserv identify 523kk
23:35:54 <elliott> 08:11:38 <ais523> Damn, I'll have to change my password now
23:36:01 <Sgeo> Did I even keep that pledge?
23:36:32 -!- z^ck has joined.
23:38:29 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:39:00 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:48:14 <Sgeo> How does Audacity manage to support Vista but work badly on 7?
23:50:49 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
23:52:18 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:52:34 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
23:54:49 -!- cheater- has joined.
23:57:55 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:02:23 <cheater-> so there's been a birthday today in the kitchen area upstairs
00:03:04 <cheater-> and i'm hanging out with the girl doing the drinks and i tell her there's tango in the ballroom downstairs and we go downstairs to check it out
00:03:10 <cheater-> and everyone's dressed like a pirate. wtf?
00:13:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:21:19 <elliott> 14:56:09 <lament> fortunately integers are not 'real' in any way :)
00:21:19 <elliott> 14:56:24 <lament> PUN NOT INTENDED AND I SHALL SMITE YOU IF YOU MAKE IT
00:21:19 <elliott> 14:58:40 <oklopol> lament: ACTUALLY INTEGERS ARE REALS, THEY'RE A SUBSET OF REALS
00:21:19 <elliott> 15:01:33 --- mode: ChanServ set +o lament
00:21:20 <elliott> 15:01:37 --- kick: oklopol was kicked by lament (lament)
00:21:22 <elliott> 15:01:37 --- join: oklopol (n=villsalo@194.251.102.88) joined #esoteric
00:21:26 <elliott> 15:01:43 --- mode: lament set -o lament
00:28:02 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:28:35 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:28:37 -!- elliott_ has joined.
00:29:07 <zzo38> Dangerous aardvarkoids?
00:39:26 <zzo38> If it wasn't for C, we'd be using BASI, PASAL and OBOL.
00:54:08 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
01:01:14 -!- TLUL has joined.
01:15:13 -!- SgeoN2 has joined.
01:15:14 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:34:04 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
01:34:15 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
01:36:47 -!- elliott_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:37:21 -!- elliott has joined.
01:41:21 <Sgeo> Is zzo38 hallucinating?
01:42:15 <zzo38> I do not have any hallucination mushrooms.
01:42:15 -!- SgeoN2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:42:41 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
01:44:16 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:46:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: Leaving).
01:47:08 <zzo38> Is there some kind of HTTP response code to tell it not to try to download favicon.ico file multiple times?
01:56:55 -!- wth has joined.
01:57:54 -!- wth has left (?).
02:00:04 * oerjan detects a chinese ipv6'er approaching a crash course in english acronyms...
02:01:56 <elliott> i guess it might mean what the hell
02:02:12 <zzo38> No, it means "with" but they forgot the "i"
02:09:00 -!- F019 has joined.
02:14:52 <elliott> oerjan: monad comprehensions in ghc 7.2!
02:16:07 <elliott> oerjan would be better if his name was jeroan
02:16:27 <zzo38> Is "najreo" better?
02:17:20 <elliott> oerjan: your name is now oerjan
02:17:26 <elliott> i hope you like this new name!
02:17:38 <oerjan> it's so new and shiny!
02:18:40 <F019> lee monad in ghc 7.19
02:19:22 <elliott> i think we have another markov bot
02:19:34 <elliott> * [F019] (~molly@212.203.98.114): polly
02:19:36 <elliott> the last one was molly too
02:19:38 <F019> markov chained
02:19:41 <pikhq_> F019: How Markovian of þee
02:19:49 <elliott> F019: YOUR FUHRER IS DEAD!!
02:19:54 <elliott> F019: i'm all for nazism. except when... chips
02:19:58 <elliott> F019: peckity peckity peckity roo
02:20:01 <elliott> F019: camber amper amper sand
02:20:03 <elliott> F019: ffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
02:20:08 <elliott> F019: DEPLOY THE HATCHLINGS
02:20:10 <pikhq_> elliott: BUT MEIN FÜHRER LIVEÞ
02:20:15 <elliott> oerjan: if it's a human we'll get "...wtf /parts" in a few seconds
02:20:27 <F019> heim!! Fourreur
02:20:27 <oerjan> F019: congratulations on finally breaking elliott's brain
02:20:29 <elliott> F019: TARSKI WAS AN ONLY CHILD
02:20:36 <elliott> F019: BUT YOU ARE HIS BROTHER
02:20:44 <F019> Tasrski and Hultchm
02:20:58 <elliott> i made that up, but F019 stole it
02:21:15 <elliott> F019: toblerone is the solution to all the world's problems
02:21:19 <elliott> F019: luke i am your toblerone
02:21:27 <elliott> oerjan: maybe it's not a markov bot
02:21:36 <elliott> at least, milka is also chocolate, and has none of the letters in toblerone
02:21:56 <F019> Triangle Toblerone is
02:22:19 <oerjan> elliott: lee monad was a pun. whether this is a very advanced ai i cannot say
02:22:32 <oerjan> (clearly punny ais are very advanced)
02:22:44 <F019> a lee monad pour une panachee beer
02:23:13 <F019> today..... not so bad gag coffee
02:23:29 <elliott> F019: Bonjour! Bienvenue à cette chaîne!
02:23:46 <F019> merci Monsieur Elliott
02:23:47 <elliott> F019: Hello! Tere tulemast kanal!
02:24:14 <elliott> F019: Malheureusement personne ne sait ici française, je suis juste en utilisant Google Translate.
02:24:25 <elliott> Toutefois, aussi, la bienvenue.
02:24:27 <zzo38> F019: What kind of language can you understand?
02:24:50 <pikhq_> elliott: Eh, it was *technically* correct. Just somewhat awkward-sounding.
02:24:52 <F019> hihi---- google-TR or RT .... that's a FAQ ?
02:24:55 <oerjan> Kefir mjølk, kefir ikkje kaffi
02:25:15 <elliott> F019: Qu'est-ce que la caféine?
02:25:27 <F019> kefir, is a yaourth ?
02:25:35 <oerjan> Je m'appelle tres bien aussi
02:26:00 <F019> a viens du caf... it saturate some coffee
02:26:26 <elliott> Un banquier fait chaussettes de roses alors que les chèvres spectatrice s'assit à laquelle le bonheur serait en décroissance conséquents bucolique.
02:26:57 <elliott> F019: J'ai une chèvre, une autre chèvre, et un plus de chèvre. Combien d'autres chèvres dois-je?
02:27:25 <elliott> De chèvre. De chèvre. De chèvre. Quel est le nombre de chèvres?
02:27:27 <F019> heu.... pour faire combien de chvre ?
02:27:45 <elliott> F019: Avec un engin de chèvre de décision.
02:28:11 <zzo38> F019: That is a bad UTF-8 code.
02:28:22 <F019> yes or not 2 be free
02:28:35 <F019> 3 ? .... three?
02:28:51 <zzo38> (Maybe it is the xchat plugin that automatically types messages for you while you are away?)
02:28:56 <elliott> F019: Ne laissez pas, même si vous êtes un robot de chaîne de Markov, vous êtes un remarquablement ingénieux. Nous soutenons l'égalité des droits de l'homme-robot.
02:29:17 -!- pikhq has joined.
02:29:22 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
02:29:28 <F019> yes, viva lay roboten, raaaa dioooooo activitaaaaate
02:30:28 <F019> or not bitall ?
02:30:44 <elliott> Pour bitall, ou de ne pas bitall? C'est la quesiton.
02:31:25 <F019> Pro didjy or not to be djiiii ?
02:31:41 <F019> l'hypothese du continue, l'axiome du choix
02:31:56 <elliott> F019: En vérité, et de ce que c'est faire comme lui non quand de l'intervalle sur le son et?
02:32:21 <oerjan> elliott: c'est le math
02:32:22 <elliott> F019: Quelqu'un at-il vraiment été bien même décidé d'utiliser même aller voulez faire ressembler davantage?
02:32:22 <F019> En vrai, j'en ai pas la mooindre idea
02:32:29 <elliott> oerjan: oh. your specialty!
02:32:42 <F019> Viva el mathos
02:32:43 <elliott> points to the first person to translate my last question without using google
02:33:11 <elliott> Les idées de la lune? La lune lunaire dans la poubelle lunaire huard?
02:33:47 <F019> repeat the question, please after me, learning britishka englishka
02:33:54 <oerjan> elliott: i guess it starts with "has anyone been" but i cannot recall the rest
02:34:15 <zzo38> F019: Is that why you cannot write clearly?
02:34:46 <elliott> F019: Désolé - Je dis simplement que des bêtises. Je ne peux pas parler français. Je suis acceptable en anglais, mais :-)
02:35:27 <F019> or not mee too
02:36:01 <zzo38> How are we going to type, English or French?
02:36:30 <elliott> Nous type de hybrid of Anglais and French.
02:36:38 <F019> we are going to huuuu..... i let Tell Guillaume :)
02:36:47 <elliott> Il sera the greatest language jamais inventé!
02:37:01 <F019> hype Bride of Fronkonstinne
02:37:06 <elliott> oerjan: Best idée, or best idée?!
02:38:06 <zzo38> Is Frenglish like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franglais
02:38:15 <F019> brk.... are we some kind of Hezo Terrific langage growing up to this sheltering sky or why not?
02:38:24 <oerjan> elliott: Har nokon verkeleg vore langt like så bestemt å bruka sjølv dra ville gjera sjå meir som?
02:39:39 <elliott> oerjan: Il me semble at sekoittaminen språk 運命づけられています to fail!
02:39:43 <F019> Gluk wunch Herltitzch fr our Mazeltoff FAQ
02:39:58 <F019> yes, a little morceau
02:40:47 <oerjan> Ich bin ein Berlinerkranz
02:40:58 <zzo38> Perhaps there is nobody at the computer, because I told them to fix the UTF-8 and no proper reply, just the same mess as before
02:41:09 <elliott> oerjan: Offensichtlich ist die deutsche the one true language!
02:41:10 <F019> the one of Berline
02:41:20 <elliott> zzo38: he's making sense in French
02:41:29 <elliott> I think his grasp of English is limited :-)
02:41:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:41:44 <F019> hu..... maybe :)
02:42:17 <zzo38> elliott: That may also be the possibility, yes.
02:42:18 <F019> wir sind die robote
02:42:27 <zzo38> (I don't know because I am not French)
02:42:38 <elliott> oerjan: Kaffe laget av perle øyne.
02:42:45 <F019> svenskaia ? or ja-ja mo.... yoyoma?
02:44:21 <F019> i'm making some loosy blog in french
02:45:03 <elliott> oerjan: Totem av spir, et gripende syn, å bli sett kun med fly lys eller salt.
02:45:04 <oerjan> elliott: Høres merkelig ut
02:45:07 <F019> so i'm little busy working girl
02:45:34 <F019> ut the bruk of gluk duke marbadul ? or molly?
02:45:55 <elliott> oerjan: Ved krefter uten sidestykke, en demonstrasjon av vidd, i bytte, elementer av pengeverdien, som brukes som dekorasjon i en hall av forestillinger. Og så videre, men likevel så videre.
02:46:02 <zzo38> F019: Try the French channel?
02:46:19 <elliott> does norwegian not use ; or something?
02:47:23 <elliott> oerjan: "Soot av trær!" den blinde mannen utbrøt; sot av trær JA! Og det, kjære leser, var en spøk.
02:48:00 <oerjan> elliott: are you translating something? i cannot google it...
02:48:38 <oerjan> except soot would be either a misspelling or horribly archaic...
02:49:05 <elliott> Nei, yay, ja, men likevel ikke. etc.
02:49:20 <F019> but canadian's have kick me ban off, haha...
02:50:11 <elliott> oerjan: Canucks & kanoer, en roman av Yynn Brok.
02:50:13 <oerjan> elliott: i mean it looks like free form poetry of some sort
02:51:01 <oerjan> oh wait that soot is obviously a failed translation
02:51:57 <oerjan> elliott: dammit i cannot google it even if i try translating it back
02:53:21 <elliott> oerjan: I antikken var en kule laget, laget for å bli sparket bare av høyere medlemmer av karnevalet, jo høyere medlemmer av pavens karneval. Så tåpelig som folk som folk liker å være, så da det var uunngåelig, og på den fjerde juni, 1761, ble en kule skutt inn i skogen av ro.
02:54:11 <elliott> oerjan: En ensom Filosofen gikk inn i en bygning. "Au!"
02:55:36 <elliott> oerjan: it's just randomness :D
02:55:47 <elliott> tell me you laughed at that last line
02:55:49 <elliott> <elliott> oerjan: En ensom Filosofen gikk inn i en bygning. "Au!"
02:56:19 <elliott> oerjan: think i could get a book of my freeform norwegian poetry published?!?!??!?!?!?!?!
02:56:26 <oerjan> absurd humor. a slight misspelling.
02:56:52 <elliott> more like a misgrammaring then?
02:57:24 <oerjan> a lonely the philosopher
02:59:08 <zzo38> Does J timezone exist? I found a list of timezone with all letters A-Z except J.
03:00:38 <oerjan> was it http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/military/ ? that also lacks J
03:00:44 <pikhq> zzo38: Huh, it doesn't exist.
03:01:00 <pikhq> I is UTC+9, K is UTC+10, and there is no J.
03:01:13 <elliott> hey oerjan told tswett oklopol's name but not me
03:02:02 <oerjan> elliott: if you look carefully at something you pasted above you will find all but one letter of oklopol's name in it
03:02:15 <elliott> 19:01:01 <oerjan> tswett: see msg (he doesn't really want it in the open iirc)
03:02:22 <elliott> oerjan: you are now legally obligated to tell me
03:02:27 <pikhq> F019: Irrelevant to nautical timezones, which are based entirely on latitude.
03:02:35 <zzo38> pikhq: Why is there no J? +14 is M+ and has no letter by itself?
03:02:57 <oerjan> elliott: i gave you a damn good hint.
03:03:44 <oerjan> elliott: i meant consecutively, in such a way that you might guess it's his name
03:04:30 <elliott> oerjan: you realise i cannot actually read the norwegian output :)
03:04:34 <oerjan> also i don't think i'm going to confirm it
03:04:47 <oerjan> elliott: er i meant something you pasted much further up
03:04:58 <elliott> <elliott> oerjan: Il me semble at sekoittaminen språk 運命づけられています to fail!
03:05:09 <oerjan> elliott: in a previous discussion today
03:05:25 <elliott> so much easier to tell me, man!
03:05:29 <oerjan> and if you find it, you will know.
03:05:36 <elliott> i talk so much in a day, oerjan.
03:05:51 <elliott> also, why do you think i have magical oklopol-name-recognition powers X_X
03:06:29 <elliott> 15:24:49 <elliott> oerjan: sheesh, stop ruling the channel by way of homoeroticism
03:06:33 <elliott> oerjan: is oklopol's name Homoqeroticism
03:07:01 <F019> wath for a Mook ?
03:07:03 <oerjan> elliott: the thing you pasted was _by_ oklopol
03:07:16 <elliott> i quoted oklopol today? :/
03:07:22 <elliott> 16:21:19 <elliott> 14:58:40 <oklopol> lament: ACTUALLY INTEGERS ARE REALS, THEY'RE A SUBSET OF REALS
03:07:50 <elliott> unless i pasted something BY oklopol without the <> line
03:07:52 <elliott> which i don't think i did.
03:08:17 <elliott> oerjan: did I _know_ oklopol wrote it?
03:08:32 <oerjan> define "wrote" but otherwise yes
03:08:54 <elliott> I fucking hate you, oerjan
03:09:34 <oerjan> i thought i was making it simple for you XD
03:09:38 <elliott> oerjan: wait is this an actual-day or an oerjan-day
03:09:44 <elliott> do i have to grep two days back in the logs
03:09:57 <oerjan> oh possibly oerjan-day
03:10:15 <elliott> oerjan: wait ville sallo is actually his real name?
03:10:33 <elliott> oerjan: i distinctly recalled we googled for that ages ago and concluded it couldn't possibly be that
03:10:37 <zzo38> I found another list, M for +12, M' for +13, and M'' for +14, M^ for +12:45
03:11:04 <oerjan> ville is a common finnish name
03:11:11 <F019> this time.... it's rainy again ?
03:11:22 <elliott> http://www.facebook.com/Villyyns <-- undoubtedly oklopol
03:11:37 <elliott> damn, there's like fifteen ville salos :(
03:12:13 <oerjan> maybe it's the finnish version of john smith
03:12:18 <zzo38> I found an answer why there is no J. J is used to indicate local time.
03:12:27 <elliott> 08:38:47 <nooga> jix: can't u understand that we don't have any Apples or any PearPCs or elsethingys
03:12:48 <elliott> Wow, Gregor used J ... like an astronaught.
03:13:29 <elliott> oerjan: would it be excessively snarky if I made a website that kept track of Ørjan Standard Time?
03:13:42 <elliott> either just going forwards by one hour each day, or using your irc talking as a guide
03:13:48 <elliott> oerjan: would it be ban-worthy?
03:14:08 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
03:14:16 -!- pikhq has joined.
03:14:45 <Gregor> elliott: Ohyeah, the editor.
03:14:48 <Gregor> elliott: Yuh, I used it.
03:15:18 <F019> SPACE is HIGH LOCK
03:15:51 <elliott> 15:00:06 <GregorR-W> Actually, you're generalizing a lot, the US is a big place :P
03:15:51 <elliott> 15:00:17 <GregorR-W> And England is ... well, not ;)
03:16:22 <elliott> Gregor: what you need to realise in the past is that the US is basically 20 Waleses or something
03:16:26 <elliott> we prefer to keep our Wales
03:16:26 <oerjan> the sun never sets on the us empire
03:16:28 <elliott> and therefore our sheep-fucking
03:16:40 <elliott> you're all about the sheep-fucking.
03:16:45 <elliott> Gregor Richards, sheep-fucker, everybody.
03:18:39 <oerjan> "But you fuck _one_ sheep..."
03:19:09 <F019> swiss-sheep are beating my a$$ till i'm dude
03:20:57 <pikhq> oerjan: If you count military bases, it really doesn't.
03:21:31 <pikhq> There are really US military bases in every time zone.
03:21:52 <pikhq> And this is fucking nuts.
03:22:11 <F019> adiom is the one and base idiom of all idioms of and only if it is
03:22:31 <pikhq> oerjan: Yes, the Army is headed by a rabid squirrel ATM.
03:22:37 <F019> Viva el Squirrelsinkalinka
03:23:02 <F019> Army Swiss Kniff :)
03:23:02 <pikhq> It's convinced that there's nuts in Iraq.
03:23:48 <F019> so bombarding with squirrels on Nutzy Pootzy
03:24:22 <elliott> eir sentience has been demonstrated
03:24:39 <elliott> you're talking about the squirrel :D
03:26:58 <F019> petit rongeur arboricole
03:30:15 <elliott> 19:12:47 <ihope_> Okay, the Recent Changes consists ENTIRELY of spam and reverting of spam.
03:30:15 <elliott> 19:13:04 <ihope_> *All* of this spam was done by unregistered users.
03:30:15 <elliott> 19:14:16 <GregorR> You're right - this situation must be resolved.
03:30:15 <elliott> 19:14:19 <GregorR> I shall log in and spam.
03:31:31 <oerjan> Gregor, the always helpful one
03:34:00 <elliott> 18:13:33 <graue> kipple: just now I forbade the string '<div' and required edit summaries from anonymouses...
03:35:00 <F019> <div> Squirrels are like a fool </div>
03:35:38 <oerjan> elliott: i'm starting to lean towards sentience myself
03:36:04 <elliott> oerjan: he was coherent in French, and made reasonable replies to statements messages after they were made.
03:37:38 <pikhq> Just non-fluent in English, one presumes.
03:37:54 <F019> good presumption
03:38:23 <F019> the river is fluent
03:38:23 <oerjan> to flu or not to flu, that's the question
03:38:46 <F019> pop.... oho i'd flu
03:44:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
03:48:24 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, and was banned on the French channels (which is why they are on this channel)
03:52:10 <elliott> oh Rune on the wiki is kipple?
03:53:23 <elliott> 09:20:31 --- quit: ChanServ (ACK! SIGSEGV!)
03:57:34 <zzo38> pikhq: I can type only ASCII in my client. (However, other messages with Unicode work OK.) And at least now I know how to pronounce because I looked it up in WWWJDIC
03:58:37 <F019> it is true.... pikhq: Yes, and was banned on the French channels (which is why
03:59:01 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
04:04:18 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
04:04:24 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
04:05:10 <F019> or i'm a Fighter FA/19 ??
04:17:05 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
04:30:54 -!- F019 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
05:34:00 -!- pikhq has joined.
05:34:12 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
05:35:41 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
05:42:13 <pikhq> So. The Libyan rebels have declared a republic.
05:53:13 -!- asiekierka has joined.
05:58:12 -!- wth has joined.
05:59:55 -!- wth has left (?).
06:00:53 <zzo38> I invented some 'patamagic feats.
06:12:32 <zzo38> Do you think you can use Maximize Spell on Teleport to make it always do ten damage whenever there is a mishap?
06:15:41 -!- augur has joined.
06:23:04 <Ilari> Heh. Write a brainfuck interpretter in pointer-B. Swapping between the code and data makes that real fun.
06:25:17 <zzo38> What is pointer-B?
06:25:30 <Ilari> One esolang I designed.
06:25:46 <zzo38> I cannot find article.
06:26:39 <Ilari> http://esolangs.org/wiki/PointerB
06:27:03 <zzo38> O, there is no hyphen. Why did you type hyphen, then?
06:27:44 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:28:33 <Ilari> Maybe I misremembered the name... Or something.
06:28:50 <zzo38> If you can write the brainfuck interpreter, and you can see it is proper, then you can know it turing complete.
06:30:06 <Ilari> I think it is turing complete via self-modifying code (instructions 52, 53 and 54 of main instruction set access code space).
06:30:52 <Ilari> Without self-modification, no way it is turing complete (one stack and finite storage space).
06:31:13 <Ilari> That is '4', '5' and '6'.
06:32:13 <zzo38> Yes I can see that.
06:33:10 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*).
06:34:33 <Ilari> No conditional branch. But one can compute addresses to jump to.
06:36:12 <zzo38> How many other programming languages have that feature of no condition branch (but possibly can compute address to jump)?
06:41:16 -!- TLUL has joined.
06:42:59 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
06:44:44 <pikhq> Yeah, quite sure that computed goto is sufficient for TC-ness.
06:44:56 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I think so, too.
06:45:05 <pikhq> Erm, assuming infinite storage space, of course.
06:45:15 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes I was just about to mention that.
06:47:15 -!- augur has joined.
07:09:31 <Sgeo> LF codepoints?
07:32:25 <zzo38> I have managed to make up some of the \if... conditions in TeX without using \if...
07:33:23 <Sgeo> zzo38, can you manage to cause me to desire food?
07:33:41 <zzo38> Sgeo: Are you going to die from not eating?
07:34:12 <Sgeo> No, but I tend not to eat more than I should. I tend to eat a bit less than I should.
07:34:36 <zzo38> Then, no, I don't.
07:51:06 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
07:52:54 -!- cheater- has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:18:47 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
08:18:52 -!- pikhq has joined.
08:19:12 <Ilari> Sgeo: Just look some Epic Meal Time videos?
08:20:56 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
08:32:56 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
08:34:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
08:35:11 -!- cheater- has joined.
08:44:28 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.17/20110121150729]).
08:47:05 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game).
08:55:30 -!- Patashu has joined.
09:01:11 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:42:13 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
10:13:35 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
10:13:56 -!- pikhq has joined.
10:28:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I just loaded YouTube's homepage to discover that they had a pretty explicit thumbnail on it, *when they don't give me access to anything deemed inappropriate*.
10:29:28 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
10:29:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
10:30:04 <olsner> they're just out to get you, and have already e-mailed your parents about your transgressions
10:40:03 -!- asiekierka has joined.
11:21:34 -!- FireFly has joined.
11:26:32 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> I just loaded YouTube's homepage to discover that they had a pretty explicit thumbnail on it, *when they don't give me access to anything deemed inappropriate*. <-- just for you. I don't see anything such
11:27:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, did you know: YouTube's front page is generated dynamically!
11:27:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes I know. But if I refresh it like a minute later it still looks the same
11:27:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it takes a while to change :P
11:28:21 <Phantom_Hoover> a) I was logged in, dramatically influencing the layout. b) I am in a different country than you, altering the featured videos enormously.
11:28:45 <Vorpal> a) ah, I was not. b) oh that explains why they featured a Swedish video
11:29:12 <Vorpal> though all but one video on the front page for me is actually English
11:29:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway I can only say it's a pity I missed out on the explicity :P
11:33:37 <Phantom_Hoover> It's still there if you want the link to satisfy your sick cravings.
11:34:48 -!- leonid has left (?).
11:37:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, there's a "5" in the top-left corner of the thumbnail.
11:43:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, does it?
11:43:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, is that some TV channel over there or?
11:44:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, yes, and it's owned by Richard Desmond, porn baron extraordinare.
11:44:45 <Vorpal> by the way, I checked on xkcd today, to see if it was still as bad. The last comic was so meta it wasn't funny.
11:45:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, do you agree?
11:58:27 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 .).
12:18:04 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*).
12:24:32 -!- pikhq has joined.
12:24:55 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
12:55:33 -!- azaq23 has joined.
12:56:37 <fizzie> Nothing Finnish on youtube front page for me, but I guess that's not terribly surprising.
12:59:52 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
13:21:37 -!- asiekierka has joined.
13:25:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
13:59:19 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
13:59:53 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
14:01:40 <asiekierka> so i want to make Brainf**k in my sandbox game, 64pixels
14:01:53 <asiekierka> the point is the only current possible tape design only lets me do a uni-directional tape
14:02:10 <asiekierka> it's of a limited length so i could time it, but still
14:18:55 <asiekierka> so i'm looking for a very minimal esolang
14:20:30 <cheater-> is unidirectional tape even TC
14:21:10 <asiekierka> look, i can't make it infinite because of the limitations of the game
14:21:21 <asiekierka> and i'm not adding yet ANOTHER block type just to make it TC
14:42:43 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
14:44:21 -!- pikhq has joined.
14:44:27 <fizzie> It's not much of a "tape" if you can only move in one direction; it's more of a single cell-sized variable that you can reset to zero (assuming a zero-initialized "tape").
15:06:12 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
15:10:18 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:11:09 -!- sebbu has joined.
15:11:09 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
15:11:09 -!- sebbu has joined.
16:02:06 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:02:35 -!- calamari has joined.
16:19:13 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:19:19 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
16:24:12 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:24:57 <ais523> hmm, this week's mystery: why does Konversation always load with Akregator's icon, even if Akregator isn't running?
16:25:06 <ais523> I think I'll go reinstall it, be back in a moment
16:25:07 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:26:10 <Sgeo> Today I Learned: ais523 is a KDE person.
16:27:03 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:27:17 <ais523> no idea how that happened...
16:30:54 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
16:31:04 <ais523> calamari: apparently there's a maintained fork of KDE 3
16:32:56 -!- zzo38 has joined.
16:37:09 <ais523> Gregor (and everyone else who cares): I was fed up with the egobot BF Joust hill still being buggy and all the apparently working impls either not working or being vaporware or being egojsout and so not running as part of the hill
16:37:16 <ais523> so I wrote this: http://sprunge.us/JRMI
16:37:58 <ais523> I'm not sure if it works for nested (({{}})%)%-style things (it should work but is untested on that), but I've tested everything else, and it's producing the same results as bugfixed-egojoust but a lot faster
16:41:44 -!- asiekierka has joined.
16:42:12 <calamari> I looked at the joust description but couldn't figure out how you actually got points lol
16:42:37 <ais523> for beating other programs
16:43:01 <ais523> there's a hill which contains all the best submissions of the past
16:43:14 <ais523> when you submit a program, it's run against all the submissions on the hill
16:43:32 <ais523> and gets points according to what it beats, and on what proportion of tape lengths and polarities
16:43:48 <calamari> apparently my communications skills are lacking.
16:43:54 <ais523> (better opponents give more points)
16:44:03 <ais523> oh, you mean how are individual runs judged?
16:44:07 <ais523> the two programs run on the same tape
16:44:30 <ais523> and a program loses if it tries to move off the end of the tape, or its flag (the tape element it starts on) becomes 0 for two turns in a row
16:45:16 <ais523> so generally speaking, good programs try to do that to their opponent
16:45:35 <ais523> trying to zero the enemy flag is the usual strategy
16:45:40 <calamari> cool, thanks for the explanation
16:46:44 <ais523> if you look at the animations linked from the wiki strategies page, most of them will try to find the enemy flag and set it to 0, and most of the strategies are based around a) doing that more efficiently, or b) making it harder for the opponent to do that
16:47:09 <ais523> and the major issue is that the flag looks much the same as any other tape cell
16:48:36 <Gregor> ais523: The hill is currently running fizzie's cranklance, which is not known to be buggy. If I snag a few minutes I'll see if this gets different results.
16:49:03 <ais523> Gregor: waterfall3 vs. allegro was giving me the wrong results when I tried it a couple of days ago
16:49:11 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
16:49:37 <Gregor> ais523: Talk to fizzie :P
16:50:03 <ais523> as in, different from egojsout, bugfixed-egojoust, and juiced (the name of my impl)
16:50:22 <Gregor> ais523: Talk to fizzie :P
16:50:49 <ais523> indeed, I pinged him then and didn't get a response (I don't actually /know/ that fizzie is male, but I'm guessing)
16:51:46 <Gregor> To quote a high-school English teacher "English is a male language, if you don't know somebody's sex then you should use 'he', deal with it."
16:52:43 <ais523> from 10 to 30 cells long, games are done on all lengths
16:52:54 <ais523> it's important that the programs don't know how long it is because then finding the flag would be trivial
16:53:13 <ais523> so you say, for instance, that one program beats another on 15 out of 21 tape lengths
16:53:54 <ais523> when comparing two programs, you also do a second run where + and - are swapped in one of the programs, to prevent degenerate behaviour based on polarity dependence
16:53:58 <ais523> so there are 42 runs in all
16:55:13 <pikhq_> Gregor: English is not a male language! It is the language of males and the sexless!
16:55:36 <pikhq_> Gregor: You see, the English were discriminatory towards *women*. Those devoid of gender are perfectly fine by them.
16:55:52 <ais523> pikhq_: *against women, surely?
16:56:10 <Gregor> pikhq_: And yet, we have no gender-neutral living pronouns...
16:56:12 <pikhq_> I still haven't had my morning cup of coffee.
16:56:25 <pikhq_> Gregor: We have a male-or-genderless pronoun.
16:56:30 <pikhq_> Gregor: Which is my point.
16:56:40 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, the English were discriminatory towards women because they were SUCH BETTER PANSIES
16:56:52 <Gregor> pikhq_: OK, fair point :P
16:57:41 <calamari> babies are sometimes referred to as "it"
16:58:04 <Gregor> Pfff, babies aren't living until they're one year old.
16:58:26 <Gregor> This is why abortion is allowed until 21 months after pregnancy.
16:58:39 <Gregor> s/pregnancy/conception/
16:59:11 <pikhq_> Gregor: I'm pretty sure that abortion after birth will get you tarred and feathered in most jurisdictions.
16:59:43 <Gregor> But merely tarred and feathered :P
16:59:53 <pikhq_> Oh, no, that's just the start.
17:00:00 <pikhq_> You'll then be aborted.
17:00:20 <ais523> I thought being tarred and feathered was generally fatal
17:00:56 <pikhq_> ais523: No, just permanently scarring.
17:02:58 <Gregor> MERELY permanent scarring.
17:14:44 <ais523> hmm, I conclude that the vast majority of YouTube comments are actually parodies of each other
17:15:08 <ais523> the proportion of people making fun of the typically stupid YouTube comments has actually risen above the proportion of people making stupid comments
17:17:29 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
17:22:45 <fizzie> Oh, my name's been mentioned.
17:23:25 <ais523> fizzie: I'm accusing your BF Joust interps of being buggy
17:23:37 <fizzie> Yes, I see. Well, it wouldn't be the first time.
17:23:39 <ais523> try running waterfall3 vs. allegro, and comparing to egojsout
17:24:18 <ais523> or to juiced, which I pastebinned in the channel a little earlier today
17:26:38 <fizzie> Yes, time to compare some traces, I guess.
17:31:35 <fizzie> (Your problematic programs are always awfully long.)
17:31:53 <ais523> my guess is a parsing problem related to ({}({})%)%
17:32:03 <ais523> as egojoust had one of those before I fixed it
17:32:48 <fizzie> Also I still can't read egojsout trace format.
17:34:20 <fizzie> What does it mean when it shows "(128 + )128 (9 > )9" where all three of ")128", "(9" and ">" are highlighted in red? That it "executed" all three during that cycle?
17:34:53 <ais523> I think it means that the ()*128 loop ended, the ()*9 loop started, and it executed the >
17:38:46 <fizzie> Oh yes, it is a parsing "bug".
17:39:10 <fizzie> For the value of "bug" that equals "does not ignore whitespace when looking for digits after *".
17:39:23 <fizzie> (I may have mentioned I'd really like to have a definitive spec for the language.)
17:40:18 <ais523> the exact parsing details after * and % are a little tricky, in the end I just aimed for compatibility with other interps
17:41:25 <fizzie> Well, I'll make {crank,gear}lance ignore spaces there. I do think I recall hearing that some other interps do.
17:41:52 <ais523> all others do because nearly all my defend programs have spaces there to make it clearer what they're doing
17:42:11 <ais523> I suppose I could remove them if really necessary, but it'd make them uglier for not much gain
17:42:12 <fizzie> You could just left-align your numbers instead of right-aligning them.
17:42:31 <fizzie> Anyway, I'll conform to the quasi-spec soon enough.
17:47:06 <ais523> anyway, now I know what I need to do to fix my program for the egobot hill
17:48:40 <ais523> !bfjoust waterfall3 http://sprunge.us/IaPS
17:49:00 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_waterfall3: 61.4
17:49:43 <ais523> 28 | + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + | 61.4 | 27.9 | 28 | ais523_waterfall3.bfjoust
17:49:51 <fizzie> Gregor: http://git.zem.fi/chainlance/blob_plain/HEAD:/gearlance.c is the fixed version.
17:50:03 <ais523> amazingly, it isn't first, because allegro's wins are more convincing
17:50:37 <fizzie> A straight-"+" row is impressive none-the-less.
17:56:03 <ais523> there are a few programs where the result depends a lot on constant tweaking, I used a program to automatically tweak the constants for those
17:57:18 -!- zeotrope has joined.
18:01:31 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/egostats/ updated with that latest hill; based on http://zem.fi/egostats/plot_dpoints.png you indeed have some quite close cases (almost grey squares) there.
18:02:04 <fizzie> Also seems to do most of the winning on longer tape lengths.
18:02:21 <ais523> most of the close places are polarity dependences
18:02:31 <ais523> the strategy's rather different on the two polarities
18:04:53 <ais523> if you want a hilarious run to watch, watch one of its wins on longer tapes against lead_acetate_philip
18:05:08 <fizzie> Waterfalls 2 and 3 have an interesting valley near the home flag in http://zem.fi/egostats/plot_tapeabs.png
18:05:43 <ais523> is that to do with time spent on the cell?
18:06:11 <fizzie> It's an average of the absolute value at that point at the end of the match.
18:06:38 <ais523> ah, that makes sense, because the cell 2 away from the flag is left deliberately blank
18:06:59 <ais523> waterfall actually uses the tape for calculations, which is almost unheard of in BF Joust
18:07:04 <fizzie> There's also quite a regular structure in the http://zem.fi/egostats/plot_p28_ptapemax.png plot, which is "maximum value in the cell when the program >d or <d away from it" averages.
18:08:09 <ais523> yep, that's showing the decoy/tripwire structure
18:08:35 <zeotrope> zzo38: what is the default starting position and direction of a Memfractal program?
18:18:02 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
18:49:12 <ais523> the other interesting thing about waterfall3 is that, despite its length, it was basically written entirely by hand
18:49:27 <ais523> although a few of the constants were overfitted to the hill by computer in order to get that perfect record
18:50:50 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:51:19 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:53:32 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:55:20 <fizzie> Well, it's still no FFSPG when it comes to size.
18:55:29 <fizzie> [('Gregor_furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls', 87949),
18:55:29 <fizzie> ('Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls', 50264),
18:55:29 <fizzie> ('quintopia_space_elevator', 15601),
18:55:29 <fizzie> ('ais523_definder2', 5536),
18:55:29 <fizzie> ('ais523_waterfall3', 5488),
18:55:47 <fizzie> (Program length using a rather arbitrary measure.)
18:56:14 <ais523> !bfjoust waterfall3 http://sprunge.us/hHGW
18:56:20 <ais523> OK, that's only a very marginal improvement
18:56:25 <ais523> but I want to get above allegro somehow
18:56:35 <ais523> perhaps I'll just submit a program that beats allegro and a bunch of other things, but loses to waterfall
18:56:41 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_waterfall3: 62.1
18:57:32 <fizzie> Deewiant: Ping, pong, your leadership is being threatened.
18:58:12 <fizzie> I'm sure he's got some sort of a "poll bfjoust report, send SMS when other programs get threateningly close" system set up, though.
18:59:04 <fizzie> (Note to self: a possible new service for fungot?)
18:59:04 <fungot> fizzie: i'm not up to coding a 4k. :p ( copyright should expire soon.)" yzi/ fit, on unrealistic demands? that sounds as a likely translation, considering the beep, not the
18:59:17 -!- elliott has joined.
18:59:35 <ais523> !bfjoust fast_rush_slow_clear <
18:59:39 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_fast_rush_slow_clear: 0.0
18:59:52 <fizzie> Close, but not *quite*.
19:00:03 <ais523> I'll put it back when I'm done, presumably
19:00:35 <ais523> !bfjoust decoybooster2 <
19:00:42 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_decoybooster2: 0.0
19:00:58 <ais523> now I'll put those two back again
19:01:16 <ais523> (yes, looking for programs of mine that waterfall3 does worse against than allegro does and deleting them is a cheap tactic)
19:01:21 <fizzie> This was a... curious exercise.
19:01:33 <ais523> !bfjoust fast_rush_slow_clear >>>>>>>>(>[+++++[-.]])*21
19:01:36 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_fast_rush_slow_clear: 19.2
19:02:01 <ais523> !bfjoust decoybooster2 (>)*7++<(-)*85(<(-)*85<(+)*85)*3(-)*43(>)*8(>[(+)*5[-.]])*21(+(.)*5)*10000
19:02:03 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_decoybooster2: 21.5
19:02:11 <ais523> fizzie: I wanted to get onto the notable programs list on the wiki
19:02:18 <ais523> which is for former hill leaders only
19:02:25 <fizzie> Ah, there's a rule like that.
19:03:01 <ais523> I've been busy winning the egojoust (well, cranklance) hill
19:03:18 <ais523> also, I wrote my own BF Joust interp because lance is still vaporware
19:03:21 <ais523> (it's linked in the logs)
19:05:25 <elliott> Gregor just didn't respond to the ping and integrated cranklance before he noticed
19:05:33 <elliott> and it's less buggy than cranklance too
19:05:53 <fizzie> You just missed the latest "bug".
19:06:15 <fizzie> (I'm pretty sure that would be UNDEF in mycology terms, though.)
19:06:26 <ais523> elliott: have you posted it anywhere?
19:06:32 <ais523> elliott: cranklance didn't like * whitespace number
19:06:45 <ais523> and I left-justified the numbers in waterfall3 as a workaround
19:06:46 <elliott> ais523: no, because what's the point if cranklance is already integrated?
19:06:55 <ais523> because more interps publically available is a good thing?
19:07:03 <elliott> ais523: There's one parser bug I have to fix to make it "work", I was going to integrate it after the fixed-point scoring system was done.
19:07:13 <elliott> ais523: Since Gregor jumped the gun on cranklance without seeing my ping, I haven't bothered to do so.
19:07:30 <ais523> anyway, waterfall3 is even creatively named!
19:07:39 <ais523> I could have just called it defend18 or something...
19:07:46 <ais523> you should be happy for me
19:08:18 <ais523> it was top of the hill for a moment (because I totally just suicided a couple of my programs that allegro beat by more than it did), and still beats all opponents in their individual matches
19:08:49 <ais523> it's going to take a while to explain how it works, though, as it uses pretty much every defensive technique in existence, as well as several new ones
19:09:05 <ais523> if you want to see hilarious, watch one of the matches it wins against lead_acetate_philip on a longer tape
19:09:16 <ais523> which it does by detecting it and deleting its own decoys in order to prevent it changing strategy
19:11:12 -!- elliott_ has joined.
19:11:37 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:21:12 <Gregor> I don't give one flying fuck which BFJ engine is in EgoBot, but please god PLEASE somebody else integrate it :P
19:21:19 <Gregor> Gimme a hg bundle and I'll use whatever.
19:21:29 <elliott_> Gregor: If you do the fixed-point scoring, maybe. :p
19:21:46 <ais523> it's less urgent now that fizzie told me how to work around the bug
19:22:28 <elliott_> Buying a month of reddit gold for someone with 51 hours to live... makes sense
19:22:47 <ais523> that's an oddly precise numbre
19:23:34 <ais523> two significant figures seems surprisingly accurate for a survival time estimate
19:23:41 <elliott_> ais523: "On Tuesday I'll finally end my battle with cancer thanks to Oregon's Death with dignity act."
19:24:36 <fizzie> Gregor: There's an updated gearlance.c if you like to fix that latest incompatibility. (I still can't bring myself to call it a bug without putting quotes around it.) Incidentally, would you want me to change the sign of the printed score value in my official copy too?
19:25:10 <elliott_> ais523: dude, yell at fizzie how it's not a bug. i got enough abuse for opposing it :-P
19:25:13 <ais523> I was annoyed enough at having to make juice handle ({})* (interpreting it as ({})%) to handle one of Gregor's programs
19:25:34 <elliott_> ais523: template for you: "BRAINFUCK WHITESPACE INSENSITIVE"
19:25:35 <ais523> even though that was actually done by removing rather than adding code
19:25:47 <elliott_> ugh @ ({})*, we agreed that wasn't equal
19:25:47 <ais523> elliott_: do you mean, how it is a bug?
19:25:55 <elliott_> ais523: no, I mean, fizzie is MOCKING its bugliness
19:26:06 <elliott_> when I said it was WONTFIX, you yelled at me for hours :P
19:26:09 <ais523> BECAUSE SINCE WHEN WAS BF SENSITIVE TO WHITESPACE
19:26:10 <elliott_> he needs the same treatment! equality!
19:26:15 <ais523> yep, but I've done it once alreayd
19:26:18 <elliott_> fizzie: See, feel bad. You've made ais yell. He never does that.
19:26:23 <elliott_> You should probably just cry a bit now.
19:26:41 <fizzie> ais523: Ignoring whitespace (and whitespace only) seems very un-bf thing to do.
19:26:58 <ais523> fizzie: I was arguing that it should delete everything that wasn't numbers
19:27:03 <ais523> but that would be incompatible with everything
19:27:17 <elliott_> we agreed on an interpretation
19:27:21 <ais523> for bonus points, I had to implement *-1 even though that's ridiculous parsewise
19:27:23 <elliott_> fizzie: all the digits must be together
19:27:26 <elliott_> but anything can come before the digits
19:27:27 <ais523> that's why I used the past tense
19:27:44 <ais523> oh, juiced allows only whitespace before the digits atm, although that's easy enough to change
19:27:47 <elliott_> this is because a number is an atomic code element, and also because it's convenient
19:27:51 <ais523> I was trying to remember what the agreed-on interpretation was
19:28:04 <elliott_> ais523: well, it's the one i unilaterally decided and everyone else was ok with :)
19:28:08 <ais523> I'll fix it at whatever point it matters
19:28:26 <fizzie> Crank/gear also allows only whitespace too, since that's what I was complained about.
19:28:51 <ais523> it was actually made out of my bug fixes and enhancements to egojoust
19:28:55 <ais523> I just changed the engine underneath them
19:29:10 <fizzie> Arguably though you could say (...)*[]42 should still be not-fine.
19:29:33 <elliott_> The grammar is '*' comment digit+.
19:29:46 <elliott_> comment is any character apart from +-<>.*%()[]
19:29:48 <ais523> that needs a special case in juiced's parser, and I'm not at all convinced it's useful
19:29:53 <ais523> given that - is a command in its own right
19:29:57 <elliott_> The grammar is '*' comment (optional '-') digit+.
19:30:15 <ais523> at least, - being context-sensitive like that irritates me a bit
19:30:44 <ais523> it's inelegant in a different sense
19:30:56 <ais523> if there was some other representation of negative numbers, it would be elegant
19:31:04 <ais523> perhaps I should insist on a Unicode minus rather than a hyphen there
19:31:10 <ais523> but that would mean parsing Unicode
19:31:40 <fizzie> ais523: Well, (42) is -42 in some (accounting-related?) contexts.
19:31:46 <fizzie> But that's even worse, I guess.
19:32:28 <zzo38> fizzie: If it is red...
19:32:28 <oerjan> <elliott_> ais523: template for you: "BRAINFUCK WHITESPACE INSENSITIVE" <-- it would be a bit annoying if it interpreted *5 blah blah 10 as *510 though...
19:32:36 <ais523> I've seen superscript minus for unary minus before now
19:32:46 <ais523> oerjan: indeed, I think that was one of the counterarguments
19:32:51 <ais523> especially as I use numbers in comments a lot
19:33:04 <ais523> elliott_: I suppose I need to update esolangs.el's syntax highlighting too
19:33:15 <ais523> atm it only does )* whitespace number (and the equivalent with %)
19:34:23 <elliott_> where number = digit+ | '-' digit+
19:35:21 <oerjan> <elliott_> oerjan: RTFrest of the talk <-- NO! BACKSCROLL ALL THE WAY!
19:35:38 <ais523> elliott_: for bonus points, is , a comment in that context?
19:35:45 <ais523> I think it's technically still reserved
19:35:51 <ais523> just in case someone other than zzo38 finds a use for it
19:35:58 <ais523> (zzo38's definition never really caught on)
19:36:35 <ais523> it reads output from the opponent's . or a random number if they haven't output anything
19:36:51 <ais523> it could actually be brokenly good depending on how the randomization works
19:36:58 <ais523> due to being able to change a value at faster than lightspeed
19:37:53 <zzo38> Because of the way of working now, just ignore the randomization and have it just do the same as . if there is no opponent output
19:38:15 <ais523> hmm, the issue is still that using . would be dangerous on a low-valued cell
19:38:25 <ais523> in case its value was used to instantly zero your flag
19:38:39 <zzo38> (The randomization can be used for a kind of 2-player game instead)
19:39:35 <ais523> a randomization command would actually be genuinely useful in writing programs (one potential semantics is to reverse all + and - in the program with a 50% chance), but a complete pain to run on hills because results would no longer be deterministic
19:39:47 <fizzie> elliott_: Coincidentally, your quasi-formal grammar doesn't work: if "comment is any character apart from [that list]", then numbers are comments too, and "* comment number" will have comment matching those numbers. Not to nitpick on the fact that you could read that as single-character-only comments.
19:39:57 <elliott_> fizzie: That list included numbers.
19:40:01 <elliott_> Or if it didn't it was a mistake.
19:40:04 <zzo38> ais523: Exactly what is my thoughts on it. Randomization would only be used in 2-player game, not in hill game.
19:40:07 <fizzie> <elliott_> comment is any character apart from +-<>.*%()[]
19:41:35 <fizzie> If that's the case, then it's a bit strange that you can put in random numbers when there's no preceding * or % for them.
19:42:09 <ais523> I should go and write a wiki description of waterfall3
19:42:16 <ais523> also of space_elevator, given that I understand how it works quite well by now
19:42:19 <ais523> even though I didn't write it
19:43:12 <elliott_> ais523: here's a fun segfault for you: http://sprunge.us/CgJK
19:43:14 <ais523> I doubt I'll be able to add an egojsout animation, though, it takes a huge amount of time to beat simple
19:43:25 <elliott_> (the alternative is *subscribing to a gnu.org mailing list*, and that's terrifying enough that I'm just going to prevent you with a trace first)
19:43:31 <elliott_> also, my theory down at the bottom must be wrong
19:43:36 <elliott_> because even if expr were changed
19:43:44 <ais523> what's that a segfault in?
19:43:51 <elliott_> ais523: mcmap, when calling Guile
19:43:53 <ais523> it looks like a scheme interp
19:43:57 <elliott_> on scm_c_eval_string(foo) where foo is "2"
19:44:23 <ais523> try using valgrind, I find it gives better explanations of segfaults than gdb does
19:44:58 <elliott_> ais523: the segfault is in Guile code, which makes me suspect that Shit is Verily Up
19:44:58 <ais523> you've never used valgrind? seriously?
19:45:26 <ais523> oh, and had a Mac for ages, on which it doesn't run
19:45:29 <ais523> that probably has something to do with it
19:45:30 <zzo38> I find gdb works for fine for me, I never use valgrind.
19:45:34 <elliott_> 08.02.04:13:22:18 <ais523> I wonder if it's possible to use valgrind as a garbage collector?
19:45:39 <elliott_> first time you mentioned valgrind in here
19:45:45 <elliott_> I was hoping it would be "valgrind? what's that?!"
19:46:09 <elliott_> ais523: I was probably put off using Valgrind by Vorpal's religious devotion to it
19:46:29 * ais523 tells egojsout to do waterfall3 vs. simple on tape length 25, at the cost of most of eir computer's CPU cycles
19:47:21 <ais523> gah, it's only up to 1500 or so, and I suspect it goes near the cycle limit to beat it
19:47:33 <elliott_> Want me to run it on this SUPERCOMPUTER :P
19:47:39 <ais523> it takes something like 99700 cycles to beat allegro on tape length 30
19:48:12 <ais523> in fact, it even changes to a rush strategy at one point when it has a perfect lock, just to stay within the cycle limit
19:48:23 <ais523> (it uses the lock to set up decoys, which is much faster than a full-tape clear)
19:48:32 <elliott_> meanwhile, I've been itching to make a language that's like the union of Haskell, Lisp and C#
19:49:35 <elliott_> actually one thing I've realised is that you can easily do Lisp-style macros in a language with complex syntax, as long as it has pattern matching
19:49:45 <elliott_> because any sane such language will have quotation and unquotation
19:50:09 <elliott_> invert {if ,x then ,y else ,z} := {if !,x then ,y else ,z}
19:51:11 <elliott_> do I need any special compiler flags to use valgrind?
19:51:42 <ais523> no, although -g produces better output
19:51:46 <ais523> because then it can give line numbers
19:52:37 <elliott_> ==2849== Use of uninitialised value of size 8
19:52:37 <elliott_> ==2849== at 0x5B4CB40: GC_mark_and_push_stack (mark.c:1396)
19:52:41 <elliott_> oddly mcmap has exited immediately
19:52:48 <elliott_> but I can see the boehm GC is going to cause some noise...
19:53:02 <ais523> how does a GCed program segfault anyway?
19:53:23 <elliott_> ais523: Guile isn't really a "GC'd program"
19:53:32 <elliott_> it's a Scheme implementation that uses the boehm GC to
19:53:38 <elliott_> *Boehm GC to implement Scheme garbage-collection
19:53:48 <elliott_> ==2849== Invalid free() / delete / delete[]
19:53:48 <elliott_> ==2849== at 0x4C27D71: free (vg_replace_malloc.c:366)
19:53:48 <elliott_> ==2849== by 0x6536A0A: free_mem (in /lib/libc-2.12.1.so)
19:53:48 <elliott_> ==2849== by 0x65365A1: __libc_freeres (in /lib/libc-2.12.1.so)
19:53:48 <elliott_> ==2849== by 0x4A2366B: _vgnU_freeres (vg_preloaded.c:62)
19:53:53 <elliott_> ==2849== Address 0x4045980 is not stack'd, malloc'd or (recently) free'd
19:53:57 <elliott_> mcmap doesn't run in Valgrind!
19:54:11 <ais523> valgrind segfaults-fast
19:54:25 <ais523> but I've never tried it on a garbage-collected program
19:54:30 <ais523> I imagine the result would be kind-of messy
19:54:52 -!- impomatic has joined.
19:55:05 <elliott_> Which probably means that it's incredibly tedious :-P
19:55:21 <elliott_> oh, it does indeed segfault immediately
19:55:27 <impomatic> elliott_: are you still working on your Forth?
19:55:42 <ais523> well, it's nice to get the segfault where the bug is rather than later
19:55:43 <elliott_> impomatic: Yes, though right now I'm busy integrating mcmap with Guile.
19:55:56 <elliott_> ais523: I don't think there's a bug, I think it's just Boehm GC doing undefined things that Valgrind decides it doesn't like
19:56:11 <elliott_> "The Boehm GC performs all manner of dark magic, most of which valgrind doesn't like. It's normal." --Google
19:57:43 <ais523> hmm, /me exits egojsout
19:57:49 <ais523> it'd only gone up to 6000 cycles or so
19:58:04 <ais523> it can more or less handle the awesomeness of triplock3 in terms of reporting results, but not in terms of reporting debug info
19:58:15 <ais523> it's a netbook, what do you expect?
19:58:20 <impomatic> elliott_: I'm still in the race then :-P I just started my top-down implementation :-) http://twitcode.org/show/251/forth-outer-interpreter
19:58:32 <ais523> impomatic: is it being written in Redcode?
19:58:47 <elliott_> impomatic: Top-down Forth... what madness!
19:58:58 <elliott_> impomatic: also, error reporting?? that's ridiculous!
19:59:03 <elliott_> just crash on invalid words, it saves bytes
19:59:16 <elliott_> impomatic: well, assuming you're trying to do this in 510 bytes without an oS
19:59:59 <ais523> oh, that reminds me, I hit upon an improvement to triplock3 while writing waterfall3
20:00:09 <impomatic> 8086 implementation to get it running followed by MSP430 as soon as the hardware arrives :-)
20:00:23 <elliott_> impomatic: But in one sector? :p
20:00:35 <elliott_> Maybe if you stored that interpreter word pre-compiled.
20:01:14 <ais523> heh, triplock3 times out on one polarity against simple modified to be vulnerable against its strategy
20:01:32 <impomatic> elliott_: we'll see. I'll be happy if it's under 1K. I think the full ANS core would take approx 4K
20:01:38 <ais523> impomatic: I've been busy dominating the egobot BF Joust hill
20:01:45 <elliott_> impomatic: don't bother with ANS compliancy
20:01:50 <elliott_> impomatic: not even Chuck Moore does
20:01:58 <ais523> 28 | + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + | 62.1 | 28.3 | 28 | ais523_waterfall3.bfjoust
20:04:02 <ais523> thanks for writing sexyghoul/spookygoth, beating them was actually really intellectually interesting
20:04:13 <ais523> especially as I mostly try to beat the strategy rather than the individual program
20:04:48 <impomatic> ais523: http://bit.ly/cwyE4s = MSP430 :-)
20:05:08 <ais523> hmmm, what's with the URL shortener?
20:05:14 <elliott_> x86 needs ten times more registers
20:05:32 <ais523> floating-point systems have thousands of registers
20:05:39 <impomatic> Sorry :-) http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/MSP430_LaunchPad_(MSP-EXP430G2)
20:05:55 <elliott_> ais523: why did RISC lose again?
20:05:56 <ais523> so that they can context-switch quickly
20:05:59 <ais523> there's a different set of registers for each thread
20:06:02 <olsner> infinite registers? but that'd probably make it turing complete!
20:06:08 <ais523> so there's no need to actually swap them out
20:06:13 <ais523> olsner: not if you need to name them by hand
20:06:35 <ais523> on the other extreme, I've seen systems that have only one register, or from another point of view the whole memory is registers
20:06:39 <ais523> and they work quite well too
20:07:47 * elliott_ tries to figure out how to organise memory
20:08:10 <ais523> what about one of those ringbinders full of plastic wallets you can put paper in
20:08:16 <olsner> elliott_: you can think of memory as an array
20:08:26 <elliott_> i don't want things to overlap
20:08:33 <elliott_> and i want certain things to be able to grow to fill all of memory
20:08:37 <elliott_> but i can't just pick random constants
20:08:41 <elliott_> because (1) low enough, there's the bios and stuff
20:08:45 <elliott_> (2) high enough, you might not have that kind of memory
20:10:06 <elliott_> hmm, ok, how to do the packing
20:10:25 <elliott_> subtract 64, and with 0x111111, and then pack
20:11:22 <ais523> I thought you were taking every fourth bit for some hashing reason, or whatevert
20:12:47 <calamari> design a file system with no dedundancy so that fsck is never needed
20:12:58 <Vorpal> <elliott_> Well, Vorpal did it. <-- did what?
20:13:06 <Vorpal> elliott_, run a gced program in valgrind?
20:13:10 <Vorpal> elliott_, depends on which GC
20:13:19 <Vorpal> elliott_, you can do it for something using libpython.
20:13:20 <olsner> calamari: you mean one that is guaranteed not to leave anything fsck can salvage?
20:13:22 <Vorpal> elliott_, can't be done
20:13:27 <Vorpal> elliott_, completely incompatible
20:13:33 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:14:04 -!- sebbu has joined.
20:14:05 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
20:14:05 -!- sebbu has joined.
20:14:11 <Vorpal> elliott_, as far as I understood it the incompatibility is on a fundamental level
20:14:19 <oerjan> <ais523> hmmm, what's with the URL shortener? <-- filthy [kg]ah?d*h?af*[iy] supporter!
20:14:27 <Vorpal> elliott_, as in, would require a complete redesign of either valgrind or boehm
20:15:33 <Vorpal> I can get "kadafi" out of that I think
20:15:39 <olsner> Vorpal: it's a regexp matching khaddaffi or whatshisname
20:15:46 <ais523> it's probably a reference to the .ly domain
20:15:57 <elliott_> Qadaffi is the preferred, I think.
20:16:01 <elliott_> But with some apostrophicals in there.
20:16:09 <Vorpal> elliott_, don't know how it is spelled in English
20:16:30 <Vorpal> elliott_, trans-whatever then
20:16:35 <Vorpal> elliott_, hm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi
20:16:49 <Vorpal> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi#Name
20:16:52 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_al-Gaddafi#Name the diagram there is awesome
20:16:54 <elliott_> Plenty transliterations are valid.
20:17:50 <oerjan> elliott_: i've seen k used, although you're right q should be there too
20:18:17 <elliott_> He's Khedhdhafy or Khuzzai from now on to me
20:18:31 <Vorpal> elliott_, I think the Swedish newspapers use some spelling with K
20:19:38 <elliott_> How to pack the bits with few code...
20:20:35 <elliott_> :(, 2*si isn't a valid address?
20:20:39 <oerjan> <Vorpal> elliott_, don't know how it is spelled in English <-- the whole point of my regexp there was that his name is spelled so many different ways it's a joke in itself
20:21:26 <olsner> it'd be something like (Q|[KG]h?)[aeu](...)aff?[iy], with (...) being a regexp for the variations between d and zz
20:21:26 <oerjan> i think maybe i should have used + on the d and f...
20:21:33 <Vorpal> elliott_, also doesn't guille suck?
20:21:42 <elliott_> And for what reason would it suck?
20:21:59 <Vorpal> elliott_, you said it did before. Compared to what is now racket
20:22:05 <elliott_> It used to be pretty bad at R5RS, but they've got a new release now.
20:22:08 <elliott_> Vorpal: Dude, it's for embedding into a program.
20:22:14 <elliott_> Racket is utterly inapplicable.
20:22:20 <olsner> it's almost (dh?|th|z){1,2}, but not exactly
20:22:39 <elliott_> NOW WHY ISN'T [fs:2*si] A VALID ADDRESS
20:22:55 <Vorpal> elliott_, in what system?
20:22:56 <oerjan> <elliott_> Gandalf. <elliott_> That's his name. <-- IT EXPLAINS SO MUCH
20:23:28 <oerjan> it had to happen eventually
20:23:54 <elliott_> <Vorpal> elliott_, in what system?
20:24:07 <olsner> elliott_: 64, 32 or 16-bit? I think you mean esi
20:24:24 <elliott_> If you complain about using readable Intel syntax rather than AT&T's ((fs(%si,*2,*2,), then I'll kill you.
20:24:24 <Vorpal> elliott_, oh registers?
20:24:27 <olsner> also, remember that the fs: segment override costs a byte
20:24:36 <elliott_> and it's OK, it's just VGA memory
20:24:46 <Vorpal> elliott_, what /are/ you doing?
20:26:06 <elliott_> olsner: are the lines that have invalid effective addresses.
20:26:32 <zzo38> Can you use the BIOS call for keyboard characters? And then use ASCII codes 0x20...0x5F? Does that works?
20:26:49 <elliott_> zzo38: That's my current plan, but actually the BIOS call gives me the scancode too!
20:26:56 <elliott_> Which means that I should be able to do the 5-bit packing I wanted to.
20:28:20 <ais523> !bfjoust waterfall2 http://sprunge.us/dSER
20:28:21 <impomatic> elliott: why not mov ah, 0x07 / mov word [fs:2*si], ax
20:28:24 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_waterfall2: 44.4
20:28:28 <ais523> may as well left-justify the numbers for posterity
20:28:49 <elliott_> impomatic: Because ah is the scancode that I would rather not clobber.
20:28:51 <ais523> even though it hurts waterfall3 somewhat
20:29:01 <elliott_> impomatic: I could copy it to another register, but I still don't think [fs:2*si] is an OK address
20:29:05 <ais523> waterfall2 vs. waterfall3 is incredibly close and constant-tweaking-dependent a lot
20:29:10 <ais523> so it's up to me to decide which way that match goes
20:29:37 <ais523> and waterfall2 seems to only have six losses and one tie, that's not bad
20:29:39 <elliott_> ais523: why keep multiple versions of a program on the board at once?
20:29:47 <elliott_> if they're similar and one is just an improvement I think it's bad to have both on the board
20:29:51 <ais523> the strategy is actually somewhat different
20:29:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:30:07 <ais523> waterfall3 attempts to adapt to the opponent's strategy
20:30:14 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
20:30:14 <ais523> whereas waterfall2 doesn't, apart from rushing against nonattacking enemies
20:30:25 <ais523> waterfall1 isn't up there because it's an older version of 2
20:30:32 <fizzie> elliott_: AFAIK the SIB byte addressing modes (anything with *2/*4/*8) can be done in 32-bit code only.
20:30:40 <ais523> normally I have two versions of a program, the dumb version and the clever version
20:30:57 <elliott_> Hey, can I jump into a 32-bit code segment without going into protected mode? :-)
20:31:00 <ais523> like defend12/defend13
20:31:08 <ais523> or arguably defend7/defend9
20:31:09 <Vorpal> elliott_, isn't that unreal mode?
20:31:17 <elliott_> Vorpal: no, that's the opposite of unreal mode.
20:32:07 <fizzie> elliott_: The 16-bit mode operand encodings can do [{bx,bp,si,di}+N] (with no/8-bit/16-bit N) and also [{bx,bp}+{si,di}], but that's it.
20:32:33 <fizzie> You can shift di by one.
20:32:38 <fizzie> At least I think you can.
20:32:42 <olsner> elliott_: obviously you can't load a 32-bit code segment outside PM :)
20:32:49 <elliott_> olsner: I CAN DO WHATEVER I WANT
20:33:00 <ais523> <elliott_> Oh, right. <-- no, left
20:33:02 <Vorpal> elliott_, do it on an avr instead
20:33:09 <ais523> rightshift would divide by two
20:33:10 <olsner> elliott_: ... but you can't use a SIB byte in 16-bit code?
20:33:24 <fizzie> olsner: As far as I can tell, no.
20:33:49 <fizzie> olsner: My "ModRM Memory References, 16-Bit Addressing" table contains no encodings that would use a SIB byte.
20:34:01 <elliott_> which way around do I want to pack
20:34:07 <elliott_> I think starting at LSB for first char
20:34:09 <olsner> fizzie: just pointing out that elliott_'s powers were unable to fix x86's instruction encodings :)
20:34:18 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:34:19 <impomatic> Elliott_: forget the AVR, it's Harvard architecture.
20:34:28 <Vorpal> impomatic, oh good point
20:34:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Scale-index byte", the thing that's used to encode the "register*4 + register" sort of address modes.
20:34:53 <Vorpal> elliott_, nothing wrong with harvard. It is common on embedded systems
20:34:57 <olsner> not scale/index/base byte?
20:35:08 -!- wareya has joined.
20:35:31 <fizzie> olsner: Oh, right, yes, it has "base" in it too. Otherwise "SIB byte" would join the "PIN number" crowd. :p
20:35:32 <Vorpal> <elliott_> x86 is the worst. <elliott_> Harvard is the WORST
20:35:39 <elliott_> OK, so, anyone have a QWERTY scancode table?
20:35:41 <Vorpal> since "worst" is absolute
20:35:45 <elliott_> I wanna see how much I need to offset and the like to get a good range of chars :P
20:35:52 <olsner> fizzie: not that there's anything wrong with repeating the last component of an acronym, IMO
20:36:06 <calamari> elliott_: I think there's one in ralf browns interrupt list
20:36:20 <ais523> olsner: IMO /opinion/?
20:36:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, also "cd disc", not as common in English as "CD-skiva" is in Swedish though
20:37:07 <elliott_> just need to tweak ah to be right now then
20:37:11 <ais523> I think it depends on the acronym in question
20:37:28 <ais523> to be precise, repeating the last component makes sense if it's a general class of nouns and you use the acronym to say which in particular
20:37:34 <ais523> as in, "the sort of machine that is an ATM"
20:37:57 <Vorpal> ais523, Asynchronous Transfer Mode machine?
20:38:07 <olsner> elliott_: Esc was 1 in the table I found
20:38:17 <ais523> Vorpal: Automatic Teller Machine machine
20:38:38 <ais523> one of the most common repeated-last-component acronyms
20:38:39 <elliott_> Science has yet to device an Automatic Penn Machine.
20:38:48 <olsner> what's "teller"? a person who works in a bank?
20:39:07 <elliott_> impomatic: How are you going to pack word names?
20:39:17 <Vorpal> ais523, http://www.google.com/search?q=ATM <-- hit 1 is Asynchronous Transfer Mode, hit 2 is Automatic Teller Machine. And no I'm not logged in
20:39:34 <ais523> Vorpal: it customizes results even if you aren't logged in
20:39:38 <ais523> in fact, I fear it does even if you block cookies
20:39:46 <Vorpal> ais523, hm how. I have dynamic ip
20:39:58 <ais523> perhaps based on other people in the same IP range
20:40:01 <ais523> or maybe just geolocation
20:40:05 <Vorpal> ais523, also I block click tracking
20:40:08 <impomatic> Elliott_: just as an ASCII string. I'm aiming for a small forth, not minimal at any expense :-)
20:40:19 <Vorpal> ais523, geolocation fails badly for me. My ISP use a country-wide pool
20:40:24 <elliott_> impomatic: hey, but even colorForth packs names! and it takes up whole _kilobytes_!
20:40:24 <Vorpal> and it rotates quickly
20:40:29 <olsner> en... automatisk banktjänstemannamaskin
20:40:42 <ais523> the UK mostly geolocates quite well
20:40:42 <olsner> glad we picked bankomat instead
20:40:53 <ais523> Wikipedia knows I live in Birmingham, for instance, using its geolocation database
20:41:03 <ais523> (although that's hardly a secret given my email address)
20:41:05 <Vorpal> olsner, damn you beat me to it
20:41:16 <fizzie> elliott_: ESC is 1 in the "set 1" scancodes that the keyboard controller uses by default, I think.
20:41:22 <elliott_> olsner: "banktjänstemannamaskin", amazing
20:41:28 <fizzie> It's 110 in the "set 2" AT keyboard scancodes that go over the wire.
20:41:37 <calamari> elliott_: http://www.ctyme.com/intr/rb-0045.htm
20:41:43 <Vorpal> elliott_, it backtranslates to "bank official machine"
20:41:56 <olsner> and sounds like a machine that makes tellers
20:41:58 <zzo38> I expect a small system would fit in conventional memory even without packed names, although still make difficult to make the kernel in 510 bytes
20:42:01 <Vorpal> elliott_, and what is amazing about it
20:42:36 <elliott_> the maximum scancode I can store is 41
20:42:53 <elliott_> I need to filter out most of this punctuation
20:42:58 <olsner> would be fun if you could just strangle the staff when they're being difficult and the automatic teller machine would just make a new one
20:43:01 <elliott_> maybe packing ascii would be better :/
20:43:49 <calamari> just use morse code for data entry ;)
20:44:21 <elliott_> calamari: why, it's only logical.
20:44:22 <olsner> calamari: still has to be converted for display...
20:44:30 <fizzie> Even if you start from Q, un-remapped 5 bits only goes up to 2fh, so you'd miss the B, N and M keys from the alphabet set.
20:44:43 <elliott_> Great, "or ebx, al" isn't okay :P
20:44:52 <fizzie> What would that even mean?
20:44:55 <elliott_> Thankfully I can or bl instead.
20:45:37 <elliott_> fizzie: Alas, 6 bits of ascii-64 does not include !.
20:45:56 <elliott_> It *does* include the uppercase alphabet, however.
20:46:00 <elliott_> Which I could possibly reuse...
20:46:05 <elliott_> Vorpal: I'm packing it into 32 bits.
20:46:15 <Vorpal> elliott_, the whole program
20:46:17 <zzo38> elliott_: Which is why I suggested starting at 0x20 instead of 0x40
20:46:40 <fizzie> elliott_: If you're going to use 6 bits, you could consider ascii minus 32.
20:46:42 <Vorpal> lambdabot, no I meant ‽
20:46:56 <zzo38> That way you have ! as well as other punctuation common in Forth. (The punctuation {|}~ is not as common in Forth)
20:47:03 <fizzie> elliott_: That one has everything that's printable in ascii except the backtick, a .. z, and {|}~.
20:47:13 <fizzie> Oh, zzo38 said it first.
20:47:23 <zzo38> And you can make Forth without doing ` or lowercase
20:47:25 <elliott_> It'll be uppercase-only, but who cares.
20:47:32 <elliott_> fizzie: What would five bits of ascii minus 32 give me?
20:47:48 <fizzie> elliott_: Lots of punctuation, the digits, no alphabetic characters or @. :p
20:47:57 <olsner> btw, when I suggested ascii-64, that was with 5 bits (giving you @, A-Z, [\]^ and _)
20:48:32 <zzo38> With 6 bits ASCII-32 you do get @, A-Z, [\]^, _
20:48:37 <Vorpal> elliott_, it is a 5 bit encoding
20:48:48 <zzo38> And I would expect using all of these in Forth.
20:49:09 <olsner> zzo38: yes, but using a whole extra bit too
20:49:10 <elliott_> fizzie: I don't need the digits :P
20:49:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: VGA doesn't have a Baudot font in ROM, though.
20:49:26 <zzo38> Vorpal: I know Baudot, too. Although you need a letter/figure shift..... otherwise you have only letters and no number/punctuation
20:49:42 <zzo38> elliott_: Yes, I would have put A immediately after 9 if I designed it
20:50:08 <elliott_> I'd have lowercase first and uppercase last, since uppercase is less common.
20:50:10 <Vorpal> elliott_, compact the range
20:50:13 <elliott_> To allow for storing fewer bits.
20:50:27 <Vorpal> elliott_, you can shift the high range down
20:50:32 <Vorpal> no need to use the same range
20:50:41 <elliott_> Vorpal: Show me the low-byte x86 for it :P
20:50:58 <Vorpal> elliott_, well no. I don't do much x86 asm
20:50:59 <zzo38> I wouldn't have lowercase first, still I would order things very differently and possibly have a few differences in control characters and stuff too
20:51:07 <Vorpal> elliott_, but I would start with using rax. Which you can't
20:51:15 <fizzie> elliott_: In any case, to summarize, with ascii you'd probably want either 6 bits starting from 32 (just about everything except lowercase stuff), or 5 bits starting from 64 (the alphabet and @[\]^_, but no other punctuation).
20:51:21 <elliott_> 64-bit code would be huge, even ignoring the long mode dance.
20:51:35 <elliott_> fizzie: I could always make ^ write to memory instead.
20:51:43 <fizzie> Yes, it's !y enough for that.
20:51:54 <zzo38> Also, like ASCII really is, still have ('0'&0x0F)==0
20:52:10 <Vorpal> zzo38, why is that good?
20:52:29 <olsner> 32-bit code in 64-bit mode is pretty much the same size as in 32-bit mode really (most of the stuff has the exact same encoding and meaning)
20:52:35 <elliott_> *Seems* like my word-reader is under 47 bytes.
20:52:43 <olsner> (but it definitely wouldn't be shorter)
20:52:46 <zzo38> Vorpal: Isn't it obvious why the low four bits of the code for '0' should be all zero?
20:52:58 <zzo38> Especially if 'A' would come immediately after '9'?
20:53:13 <Vorpal> zzo38, I don't do much crazy asm golfing
20:53:26 <calamari> lol complaining about ascii.. hen use ebcdic
20:53:27 <Vorpal> zzo38, I code in stuff that generally uses utf-8 anyway
20:53:28 <zzo38> Although if I did that, perhaps '0' would then come at 0x40 instead of 0x30
20:53:51 <Vorpal> zzo38, no it isn't obvious
20:53:51 <ais523> calamari: the "bcd" in "ebcdic" stands for "binary-coded-decimal"
20:54:11 <zzo38> Vorpal: It isn't because of golfing, it is just logical!
20:54:26 <calamari> just saying, there are much worse than ascii :)
20:54:41 <zzo38> calamari: Yes, I agree
20:55:23 <Vorpal> ah I'm not the only one who doesn't get it
20:55:34 <zzo38> Vorpal: Now you have bits 0b01000000=='0' and 0x4A=='A' it makes sense isn't it?
20:55:49 <elliott_> so that the alphabet looks right in hex
20:56:05 <elliott_> that's a pretty weak justification IMO
20:56:20 <zzo38> And since it is 0x40 instead of 0x30 that means the bits are aligned better for that purpose, too.
20:56:30 <zzo38> Including if you use the entire alphabet.
20:57:05 <zzo38> elliott_: Then 0x50=='G' and so on...
20:57:33 <Vorpal> zzo38, how would 0x50=='G' make sense?
20:57:45 <zzo38> Vorpal: Because it comes after 'F'.
20:57:54 <Vorpal> zzo38, yes I get how it happens
20:57:58 <Vorpal> zzo38, but shouldn't it be
20:58:20 <Vorpal> zzo38, that would be a LOT more logical :P
20:58:44 <zzo38> There is no 0x4G is not a hex number, you need to do it in binary, you use hex just to make shorter typing, instead of binary.
20:59:04 <zzo38> In case of computer with 9 bits in one byte, you should use octal instead.
20:59:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: You said "0x", though.
20:59:39 <Vorpal> elliott_, not in an alternate reality!
20:59:46 <Vorpal> where base 23 is called mex
21:00:09 <Vorpal> elliott_, I prefer 16#F00
21:00:55 <Vorpal> elliott_, awesome idea
21:01:07 <Vorpal> elliott_, actually wouldn't that be base 69?
21:01:17 <elliott_> Oh man, look at the comedy spewing out of Vorpal's mouth.
21:01:24 <zzo38> Sometimes they use things like $42_{\rm ten}$ for forty-two, and so on
21:01:24 -!- Lymia has quit (Quit: ==(>^w^)> ==(> >.<)>).
21:01:30 <Vorpal> elliott_, no I'm not claiming it is good
21:01:46 <Vorpal> zzo38, yes that happens in literature
21:02:21 <zzo38> fizzie: That is used too, sometimes.
21:02:56 <zzo38> elliott_: Which is why, to using the words...
21:03:22 <elliott_> But "ten" is just as ambiguous as 10.
21:03:34 <zzo38> If you mean the hexadecimal number 0x10 then you write "tex" not "ten"
21:03:36 <fizzie> Wikipedia's hex table uses "hex", "dec" and "oct" subscripts.
21:03:55 <Vorpal> zzo38, no then people would think you mean /usr/bin/tex
21:04:04 <zzo38> And "hundrek" for 0x100
21:04:23 <fizzie> So is 0o100 a "hundo"?
21:04:31 -!- elliott_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:04:34 -!- elliott has joined.
21:04:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, woudln't it be hundro?
21:04:42 <zzo38> I do not know if anyone made up words for saying octal numbers
21:04:48 <zzo38> But there is some for hexadecimal numbers.
21:05:01 <Vorpal> olsner, could be a dog too
21:05:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'unno, "hundo" sounds like a dialecty "hundred".
21:05:55 <zzo38> Perhaps today you can make up octal speeching. So, we can have decimal, hexadecimal, octal speeching, now.
21:05:56 <fizzie> Urban dictionary "hundo": "An increment of 100 dollars. Normally used when reffering to spending habits."
21:06:12 <fizzie> Also two other entries much like that.
21:06:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, so only incrementally used?
21:06:55 <fizzie> No, more generally too. Apparently "100%" can also be said "hundo".
21:07:00 <Vorpal> zzo38, what about septal and niertal (or whatever you call it?)
21:07:47 <zzo38> Vorpal: You can do that if you want, but probably is not quite commonly that it could be used enough.
21:08:12 <zzo38> While hexadecimal would be used secondly to decimal, and octal maybe thirdly?
21:08:37 <Vorpal> I have written 0b a lot more than 0 in C
21:08:43 <Vorpal> (that was C where I knew the compiler
21:08:48 <calamari> had to use octal the other day due to Java
21:09:17 <Vorpal> Specifically I used 0b prefix in C when dealing with IO register masking on some embedded systems
21:09:27 <zzo38> Yes octal is rare. However, a lot of TeX: The Program uses a lot of octal numbers, although I think it would be clearer if hex is used instead (WEB supports both... Pascal supports neither...)
21:09:35 <calamari> yeah I couldn't figure out how to exter a character in hex, so I used '\ooo'
21:10:13 <zzo38> I have, however, occasionally found octal useful. I find octal clearer than hexadecimal when entering the bit patterns for a seven-segment display, is one thing.
21:11:24 <zzo38> Do you understand?
21:12:21 <zzo38> calamari: Can you use \x like you can in C?
21:12:40 <calamari> I could do that in a string but it didn't like it in the char constant
21:13:01 -!- mycrofti1 has joined.
21:13:16 -!- nooga__ has joined.
21:14:02 -!- comex_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:14:02 -!- mycroftiv has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:14:03 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:14:39 <olsner> couldn't you just have done char foo = 0xff; if it was a constant?
21:14:45 <olsner> or (char)0xff or whatever
21:14:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: Septenary and nonary.
21:15:01 <zzo38> olsner: I would think that too, at least in C, but maybe in Java it doesn't do?
21:15:03 -!- comex has joined.
21:15:48 <zzo38> However, it is possible to write a Java program in C, if you have a C compiler to target JVM
21:16:05 <olsner> wouldn't surprise me if conversions to/from char are needlessly limited
21:16:12 <fizzie> You can cast a number into char, but it does need the cast.
21:16:31 <fizzie> And character literals indeed only do \nnn with octal, or \uxxxx with hex.
21:16:43 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> However, it is possible to write a Java program in C, if you have a C compiler to target JVM
21:16:46 <olsner> one funny thing is that Java allows \uxxxx escapes in code too - useful if someone uses µ in an identifier
21:17:18 <olsner> (blackberry has stuff like that in their api)
21:18:08 <zzo38> In my programs, if I want Greek letter in an identifier, I will do something like, @f mu TeX and now it will print in Greek, even though I did not type it in Greek.
21:19:23 <zzo38> And even Hebrew, a bit.....
21:20:07 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: Septenary and nonary. <-- I prefer ninerary then
21:21:23 <oerjan> HOW DARE YOU MANGLE ALREADY MANGLED LATIN
21:21:36 <Vorpal> oerjan, because niner is an awesome spelling
21:21:45 <Vorpal> oerjan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICAO_spelling_alphabet
21:21:58 -!- Patashu has joined.
21:31:23 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.17/20110121150729]).
21:32:03 -!- zeotrope has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:33:06 <zzo38> Just because I can, I have made up some conditional functions in TeX without using any of the primitive conditional commands at all.
21:34:42 <zzo38> Of course it is not how you would do in actual documents, it is just to show how it can be done.
21:35:10 <zzo38> Now see if you can figure out any of them by yourself, too.
21:44:13 -!- augur has joined.
21:50:07 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
21:50:21 <oerjan> YOUR ESOLANGS WEBSITE IS BROKEN
21:50:32 -!- Lymia has joined.
21:50:32 <oerjan> elliott: NO THIS TIME I HAD EXCELLENT CAUSE
21:50:32 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host).
21:50:32 -!- Lymia has joined.
21:51:20 <elliott> Can you make it with macros? --Zzo38 03:29, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
21:51:20 <elliott> We couldn't implement the functionality of macros in this first version due to time constraints. But we thought about it and we suggested to allocate a special buffer in the infinite tape to host the macros. May be that will be for future versions of the ClearBF Compiler. Yasser 21:08, 03 March 2011 (UTC)
21:51:25 <elliott> MACROS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TAPE
21:53:09 <ais523> WHAT IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE THEM AT RUNTIME
21:53:43 <elliott> ais523: WELL IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW
21:54:13 <FireFly> * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
21:54:36 <ais523> I like the way oerjan manages to do that more or less completely out of the blue every now and then
21:55:11 <oerjan> http://firefly.nu/diverse/esolangs/migol09/bf.mgl in particular
21:56:20 <oerjan> also http://firefly.nu/diverse/esolangs/Migol09/miGoL.mgl and for that matter the entire diverse/ directory afaict
21:56:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Two ladders rest in opposite sides of a room. One is 10 feet long, while the other is 12 feet long."
21:56:38 <FireFly> Yep, cause it's actually Diverse, but it used to be on a shitty windows server
21:57:00 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: HA HA HA).
21:57:00 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
21:57:05 <FireFly> now the former should work
21:57:18 <FireFly> and the latter, if you change the casing of the Migol09 directory
21:57:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "I tried it again. This time I measured the apparent parallax movement of my thumb to an object twelve feet away. Extrapolating from that ratio in arcseconds, I calculated that the opposite wall is 0 AU away. X = 0 AU."
21:57:55 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:58:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://i.imgur.com/QXqoj.png
22:01:19 <ais523> elliott: you have to admit, that value of 0 AU is probably accurate to quite a lot of decimal places
22:03:20 <ais523> hmm, BF Joust is stuck in my head
22:03:23 <ais523> much the same way songs can be
22:03:38 <ais523> even though I'm mostly done with waterfall3, as I can't think of much of a way to improve it
22:03:47 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/fy9gq/rmath_im_learning_my_first_language_this_semester/
22:03:48 <ais523> special-casing short tapes doesn't help as it weakens the program on everything else
22:04:14 <ais523> and generally speaking, given a sufficiently long tape it beats more or less every other strategy
22:04:19 <ais523> except for lead_acetate_philip on one polarity
22:04:29 <ais523> and some draws against shudders
22:04:34 <Ilari> Pfft... Solving 4th degree equation numerically. 4th degree equations can be solved symbolically as well. :-)
22:04:47 <elliott> "I thought FORTRAN was *the* science language, but I'm confused why it can't handle as big as 3^10."
22:05:01 <ais523> 59049 should be in range, surely?
22:05:16 <ais523> and yes, I know that number off by heart because of Malbolge
22:05:24 -!- TLUL has joined.
22:05:26 <ais523> although it comes up in TriINTERCAL too
22:05:28 <oerjan> FireFly: ok i fixed the links on EsoInterpreters, Migol and your user page, unfortunately i have no idea how to search for the rest efficiently if there are any
22:05:32 <elliott> I like how they "calculated" the maximum FORTRAN integer to be 2^31 - 1.
22:05:58 <elliott> "Haskell handles the so-called "bignums" transparently and its syntax is probably as close to mathematics as you can get."
22:06:04 <elliott> HASKELL'S SYNTAX IS NOT MATHEMATICS THAT DOESN'T EVEN MEAN ANYTHING
22:06:17 <elliott> ais523: Hey, uh, how do you enable core dumps.
22:06:18 <FireFly> oerjan, oh, thanks. No more that I know of, at least
22:06:29 <ais523> elliott: in bash, ulimit -Sc 1024000 or whatever number you like
22:06:39 <ais523> it's in kilobytes, IIRC
22:06:45 <elliott> <mark_weaver> enable core dumps and then look at the backtrace in gdb
22:06:48 <elliott> Backtrace of... the core dum,p?
22:06:51 <ais523> using -Scnot just -c lets you change your mind leater
22:06:54 <elliott> IUNNO WHAT I'M MEANT TAH DO
22:07:01 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it allows you to increase the limit
22:07:08 <ais523> normally, ulimit limits are set hard and unchangeable
22:07:13 <ais523> so you can use them for security
22:07:17 <ais523> and core dumps have backtraces
22:07:27 <ais523> that you can see by opening them in gdb and running the backtrace command
22:09:24 <Phantom_Hoover> The Casio FX-83ES is more sophisticated than the 85ES.
22:09:45 <elliott> I like how core dumps go to core
22:10:03 <elliott> in this modern gnu world I would expect mcmap.2897598734545.elf-dump or something else similarly ENTERPRISEY
22:10:36 <elliott> i'll let ais523 explain the whole
22:10:45 <fizzie> There's a kernel config thing where you can write a pattern for the
22:11:00 <elliott> I thought you were SLEEPING, anyway.
22:11:11 <fizzie> It can have all kinds of %x expandables too.
22:11:39 <fizzie> Pids, uids, gids, name of executable, hostname, so on.
22:11:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, the classic "This calculator only does FRACTIONS AAAH I HATE IT"
22:11:48 <fizzie> So that you can be the enterprise.
22:12:53 <elliott> Be the enterprise you wish to see in the world.
22:14:37 <fizzie> echo '%h.%e.%t.%p.%u:%g.%s.core' > /proc/sys/kernel/core_pattern
22:14:59 <fizzie> Though the expanded name might be longer than the limit of 64 chars.
22:15:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I like the fact that Amazon includes a scientific calculator as an "office product".
22:16:09 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:29:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:31:05 <elliott> pikhq_: Hey look, it's like that stock market thing! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MERS
22:34:26 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:35:28 -!- HackEgo has joined.
22:35:29 -!- EgoBot has joined.
22:39:41 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:39:48 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:53:41 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
22:54:07 -!- azaq23 has joined.
22:56:36 -!- azaq231 has joined.
22:57:13 -!- azaq231 has quit (Client Quit).
22:57:40 -!- azaq231 has joined.
22:58:26 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:02:18 <elliott> "HarperCollins says US libraries can lend its ebooks only 26 times as print books have to be replaced after that"
23:04:02 <copumpkin> I had no idea print books were replaced
23:04:18 <elliott> copumpkin: "Basically this asshat pulled that number out of his butt. I used to work in at a library and books easily last way more than 26 borrowings (e.g., bestellers get borrowed over 20 times in just their first year). A library couldn't economically survive if books didn't last more than 26 borrowings, which btw is why libraries only stock hardback versions."
23:04:48 <elliott> copumpkin: Not only is it yet another water-is-not-wet argument for copyright (are there any others?), but it's based on false premises too.
23:04:56 <elliott> Well, not that I don't expect HarperCollins really believes that shit.
23:05:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:21:17 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:22:21 <cheater-> show me a water-is-not-wet argument based on correct premises.
23:22:30 <zzo38> I tried to make up a code table to see how I might have done it if I had made a code instead of using ASCII and it is somewhat like that - http://sprunge.us/cOaE
23:23:26 <zzo38> How can you decide how many times you lend the books based on whether or not water is wet?
23:24:05 <zzo38> cheater-: Do you think it is a bit better job than ASCII?
23:24:25 <zzo38> (It is not even complete yet, however)
23:24:43 <cheater-> now here's an additional problem
23:25:02 <cheater-> make sure that it withstands adding random noise to the signal
23:25:13 <cheater-> or rather, that it's more resilient than ascii
23:25:51 <zzo38> To do that you need to add an extra error correction, it is not part of the character coding. That would be a separate thing.
23:26:00 <cheater-> this means for one thing being able to easily notice erroneous characters
23:26:09 <cheater-> no, no need for error correction, just sanity correction
23:26:28 <cheater-> e.g. words usually don't have capital letters in the middle unless they're all caps
23:26:51 <cheater-> or the fact that words are made out of letters or that in a computer language certain characters come in pairs
23:27:07 <zzo38> Hopefully you should be able to tell, but some of redundancy in language is also depending whether or not you write in English.
23:27:54 <cheater-> i think the most basic thing is, looking at those characters that come in pairs, that flipping just several bits doesn't give you another character of that type
23:28:04 <cheater-> and certainly that the distance to the dual character is maximized
23:28:23 <cheater-> so you'd probably want [ to be ] with all bits flipped or something like that
23:28:25 <zzo38> Maybe you can try making a simulation to see what will happene
23:28:56 <zzo38> cheater-: Doing some of those things, however, might mess up other aspects of the code
23:33:42 <zzo38> Like, if [ is ] with all bits flipped, then it might disrupt other patterns in this code.
23:34:27 <zzo38> I did not design it for noise correction.
23:40:02 <Patashu> onew of my programs is on the hill still
23:43:01 <elliott> Patashu: it's been like that for years
23:43:31 <Patashu> unless you think bf joust has depth?
23:43:35 <elliott> BF Joust has depth, certainly.
23:43:39 <elliott> You are not aware of the new developments?
23:43:45 <elliott> Incredibly advanced hybrid-defence programs have been written.
23:43:48 <elliott> That is, part defence, part attack.
23:43:48 <Patashu> but, stuff like fyb and core wars
23:43:53 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
23:43:57 <elliott> Patashu: FYB has no depth; it is fundamentally broken.
23:44:02 <elliott> Was demonstrated on this channel a while back.
23:44:10 <elliott> Gregor admitted it, at least.
23:44:20 <elliott> I firmly believe that BF Joust has the same depth as Core War.
23:44:31 <elliott> Patashu: Here's some good reading material.
23:44:38 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/quintopia_space_elevator.bfjoust
23:44:38 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ais523_defend9_75.bfjoust
23:44:44 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ais523_waterfall3.bfjoust
23:45:11 <elliott> Also the completely insane http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/Gregor_furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls.bfjoust, which contains its own generator program.
23:47:42 <elliott> Patashu: Note that all the ones linked are partially computer-generated (well, dunno about waterfall3).
23:48:11 <elliott> space_elevator because it's basically a bunch of mechanical repetitions of the same basic strategy, defend9.75 because it's incredibly complex, and FFSPG because... I don't know, Gregor is a madman.
23:49:38 <oerjan> AT LEAST BFJOUST KEEPS HIM OFF THE STREETS
23:51:07 <zzo38> I noticed someone edited my Wikipedia userpage by adding the text "Why the heck did MFGGer link to page of this?" with the summary "This page has DRM in it" and then changed it back in five minutes. What kind of stuff is that?
23:52:01 <zzo38> If by "has DRM in it", you mean that the letters "DRM" appear like that, then it is correct it probably does.
23:53:39 <zzo38> Do you like to use redundant userboxes that are redundant?
23:59:16 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:59:18 <Sgeo> I once made a userbox that was supposed to be randomly colored
23:59:24 <Sgeo> Then #rand was eliminated
00:00:10 <zzo38> Can you use something based on the current time of day?
00:00:27 <Sgeo> Hmm, didn't think of that
00:03:24 <zzo38> Maybe you can try now see what happen?
00:05:38 <Sgeo> Not too interested, tbh
00:07:54 <zzo38> I made a wiki, it has no colors but you could do things based on the time of day. However, if we want more random numbers I should implement that in addition because the time of day is only in minutes
00:10:33 <zzo38> I play a card game called Yomi, do they have a userbox for that, maybe?
00:19:55 <Patashu> it's kind of tempting to try and hack at the bfjoust hill again
00:20:08 <Patashu> but I think I'd need to write my thesis on it to have any chance at this current state of development
00:20:12 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:22:55 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:35:08 -!- azaq231 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
00:35:20 -!- azaq23 has joined.
00:36:58 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 .).
00:38:20 <Ilari> Wow: "When just one person is using certain P2P networks at home, I have seen 30 or more TCP SYNs _per second_ going out - over a 2Mbit ADSL."
00:44:32 <Ilari> Also, CGNs tend to have low state timeouts (as low as 1 minute has been spotted).
01:09:15 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
01:09:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:21:55 <elliott> <Patashu> it's kind of tempting to try and hack at the bfjoust hill again
01:21:55 <elliott> <Patashu> but I think I'd need to write my thesis on it to have any chance at this current state of development
01:22:06 <elliott> he'd be surprised, what with Gregor's quick rise from cheap tricks :D
01:39:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:52:26 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:52:52 -!- elliott has joined.
02:23:31 <zzo38> Have I missed anything important in making a wiki system?
02:27:52 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
02:27:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host).
02:27:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
02:35:19 <oerjan> nah he's just an egghead
02:37:23 <oerjan> things are a bit fishy in freefall today
02:41:24 <zzo38> My userpage in Wikipedia is fixed now, isn't it?
02:43:29 <zzo38> Or is it broken more now?
02:44:58 <oerjan> at least the brokenness is self-referential
02:46:04 <zzo38> Actually I think I fixed it more and I also broke it more, too.
02:48:54 <zzo38> All the new things I added to the bottom (except for a HTML comment near the top)
02:51:36 <zzo38> Some of them I (or others can) might change to template pages so that it can be transcluded instead
02:52:21 <zzo38> Wikipedia has no article about "Yomi (card game)"!
03:07:48 <zzo38> What kind of cleric domain would you make for this spell? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/options/Good_Insane_Spell.s
03:08:22 <zzo38> (I think domain clerics ought to cast it sometimes?)
03:09:11 <zzo38> pikhq_: Do you think domain clerics ought to cast it sometimes?
03:17:11 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:17:40 -!- zzo38 has joined.
03:18:15 <zzo38> Sorry, it was connection error.
03:29:21 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
03:45:06 <Ilari> Hah. Two of temperature sensors report alarms on this computer. Except those aren't "temperature too high", it is "temperature too low".
03:45:06 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:45:15 -!- elliott has joined.
03:45:18 -!- pizearke2 has joined.
03:45:40 -!- pizearke2 has quit (Client Quit).
03:59:54 <zzo38> Ilari: What should be the minimum temperature, then?
04:00:37 <Ilari> Those minimum temps seem way too high.
04:01:06 <zzo38> Can you try to figure out the reason for that, and if it is not good reason, adjust the minimum setting to a lower number?
04:04:53 <zzo38> Do you agree that UNIX is better than SpectateSwamp Desktop Search?
04:09:38 <elliott> 08:26:10 <Sgeo> Today I Learned: ais523 is a KDE person.
04:10:01 <Sgeo> elliott, then explain the use of Konversation and Akregator
04:10:53 <Sgeo> zzo38, a lump on a log is better than SpectateSwamp Desktop Search [slight exaggeration]
04:10:55 <elliott> 08:50:49 <ais523> indeed, I pinged him then and didn't get a response (I don't actually /know/ that fizzie is male, but I'm guessing)
04:10:55 <elliott> 08:51:46 <Gregor> To quote a high-school English teacher "English is a male language, if you don't know somebody's sex then you should use 'he', deal with it."
04:11:10 <elliott> I would totally argue this, except me and variable just argued with and subsequently convinced pikhq about this issue mere days ago, so I can't be arsed.
04:11:27 <Gregor> I was just quoting a teacher :P
04:11:54 <elliott> To quote Hitler, "We should kill all the Jews."
04:12:00 <elliott> "Especially Gregor Richards."
04:12:01 <zzo38> Sgeo: Better for what?
04:12:34 <elliott> 08:56:10 <Gregor> pikhq_: And yet, we have no gender-neutral living pronouns...
04:13:07 <Sgeo> zzo38, anything. And anyone. Except maybe SpectateSwamp. He might find use out of it.
04:14:06 -!- azaq231 has joined.
04:14:34 <zzo38> No, not anything. Bump on the log is probably no good if you want to share videos? (Unless you have a video camera, in which case you should use the video camera instead)
04:15:11 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
04:15:26 <elliott> 20:10:01 <Sgeo> elliott, then explain the use of Konversation and Akregator
04:15:32 <elliott> it is impossible to install kde programs in gnome
04:16:56 <Sgeo> SSDS is no good if you want something usable by anyone outside the set of {SpectateSwamp, zzo38}
04:17:36 <zzo38> I do not find it a very good program either
04:18:09 <zzo38> I rarely work with videos anyways.
04:23:01 <pikhq_> elliott: GNOME excludes all.
04:23:13 <elliott> Every time you log in, GNOME removes all non-GNOME programs. Permanently.
04:23:16 <elliott> Including all associated data.
04:23:42 <Sgeo> What's so great about Konversation and Akregator though that makes them worth using on GNOME?
04:24:03 <Sgeo> I've kind of always had a prejucide for keeping GTK+ apps on GNOME and Qt on KDE
04:24:16 <Sgeo> Well, hmm, not that much
04:24:22 <Sgeo> GNOME apps on GNOME and KDE apps on KDE
04:30:09 <pikhq_> Well, KDE apps on GNOME works quite well these days.
04:34:49 * pikhq_ wonders how Ferrero has the balls to claim that Nutella is an exceptionally healthy food.
04:35:29 <pikhq_> (corn syrup in the US)
04:40:55 -!- lifthras1ir has changed nick to lifthrasiir.
04:47:31 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:59:12 -!- pikhq has joined.
04:59:13 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
05:02:15 -!- asiekierka has joined.
05:04:29 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
05:04:34 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
05:06:20 -!- calamari has joined.
05:07:20 <Gregor> "Bieng diagnsoed with a seriuos illenss or giong throguh a divocre ofetn triggres derpession."
05:07:27 <Gregor> Wouldn't want derpession.
05:07:54 <pikhq_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2k9JwGpm1w Some days, I ♥ BBC.
05:08:07 -!- azaq231 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
05:08:12 <elliott> you haven't seen look around you?
05:08:23 <elliott> only the best TV show on earth
05:08:34 <pikhq_> elliott: No, it doesn't air in the US.
05:08:41 <elliott> pikhq_: You have the Internet.
05:08:48 <pikhq_> elliott: Hence why I'm seeing it now.
05:08:56 <pikhq_> Erm, well, hence *how* I'm seeing it now.
05:08:57 <elliott> And it doesn't air in the UK either, there are two series and they each have like six episodes, like all British programs :P
05:09:08 <elliott> (And the second serious is wildly different.)
05:09:39 <pikhq_> elliott: Yes, but the point is, *quality TV basically doesn't happen in the US*.
05:09:50 <elliott> Kinda like your mom. ...what?
05:09:57 <pikhq_> Except when it does, in which case it gets freaking milked for all it's got.
05:10:12 <elliott> Wait until you get to the music episode.
05:10:27 <elliott> Hey now little mouse / I hope we understand one another / Hey now little mouse / Show me what to do.
05:10:30 <elliott> THE MEANING, IT IS SO DEEP.
05:11:08 <coppro> look around you is truly awesome
05:11:18 <coppro> and yeah, the US is lacking in quality TV
05:11:54 <elliott> 17:16:11 <Pikhq> %.b : %.bfm
05:11:54 <elliott> 17:16:19 <Pikhq> *Surely* pfuck.0.b matches that.
05:11:55 <elliott> 17:16:51 * GregorR never uses that syntax.
05:11:55 <elliott> 17:16:59 <GregorR> .bfm.b:
05:12:03 <elliott> Gregor came here from the 70s to let us all know that, 70s!
05:12:45 <pikhq_> coppro: Oh, it definitely has some quality. And this quality gets spread out into as many seasons as it takes for the quality to stop.
05:16:05 <Gregor> elliott: And you came here from 200(something) to tell us that ...
05:16:24 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
05:30:29 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
05:50:40 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
05:52:00 -!- FireFly has joined.
05:53:21 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving).
05:58:20 <pikhq_> Man. ATI drivers are kinda weird with Flash video.
05:58:32 <pikhq_> Full-screen performance > normal performance.
05:58:44 <pikhq_> (judging from smoothness of video & lack of tearing)
06:02:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:13:38 -!- myndzi\ has joined.
06:15:54 -!- SimonRC has quit (*.net *.split).
06:15:55 -!- rodgort has quit (*.net *.split).
06:15:55 -!- myndzi has quit (*.net *.split).
06:20:13 -!- rodgort has joined.
06:21:23 -!- SimonRC has joined.
06:31:50 -!- augur has joined.
07:11:22 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:11:50 -!- sebbu has joined.
07:11:50 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
07:11:50 -!- sebbu has joined.
07:13:51 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
07:55:41 -!- ais523 has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:11:15 <cheater00> pikhq_: if you're in linux and using ff, try installing flash-aid
08:11:28 <cheater00> pikhq_: i've had the same problems as you because of a wrong version of flash being installed
08:13:24 <pikhq_> cheater00: It's just that I get video tearing from Flash not v-syncing *unless* it's full screen.
08:13:39 <pikhq_> Which doesn't really suggest any actual *problems*, except incompetence.
08:23:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
08:26:48 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
08:32:02 -!- Slereah has joined.
08:36:03 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
08:38:41 -!- cheater00 has joined.
08:38:53 <cheater00> pikhq_: yeah, i've had that too. give it a go.
08:43:44 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
08:43:44 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
08:43:44 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
08:44:20 -!- pikhq has joined.
08:44:26 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
08:46:20 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
09:03:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game).
09:23:33 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*).
09:29:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
09:29:18 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
09:31:18 -!- Patashu has joined.
09:33:35 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
09:36:37 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
09:38:08 -!- arw has joined.
09:38:58 -!- arw has left (?).
10:21:00 <fizzie> http://fuckyeahnouns.com/bfjoust
10:21:14 <fizzie> (I sure hope it'll return the same image for everyone.)
10:23:30 <fizzie> Deewiant: You might find http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/tmp.gif amusing too; the reference might be lost on non-.fi people, though.
10:40:35 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
11:06:35 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:10:32 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
11:47:49 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_suicide: 0.0
11:48:44 <ais523> (waterfall3 was losing to the program at the bottom of the hill and none of the programs above it, so I bumped it off to regain a flawless record)
11:49:35 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_nop: 4.1
11:50:25 <ais523> hmm, it seems no-ops still have a vague chance on the hill
11:51:11 <ais523> also, wow, all the numbered defenders have fallen off the hill
11:53:58 <fizzie> !bfjoust trivial (>)*9(+[[-]].>)*21
11:54:04 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_trivial: 15.4
11:54:05 <fizzie> Just in the interests of experimentation.
11:54:22 <ais523> !bfjoust defend9.75 http://sprunge.us/JKFa
11:54:29 <ais523> that's with the whitespace bug fixed
11:54:31 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend9_75: 43.2
11:54:34 <ais523> or workarounded, anyway
11:54:46 <ais523> it should do rather better now that it's repeating 9 times rather than 1
11:55:05 <fizzie> Actually if you had whitespace, it was interpreted as *0.
11:55:49 <ais523> good to see waterfall3 still beats it
11:55:55 <fizzie> I did (...)*[garbage] as *0 since it was giving parse error for Gregor's "let's put some Perl inside (...)*0" thing.
11:56:28 <ais523> that was a very chaotic match, because they keep trying to full-tape-clear each other, which is always messy
11:56:33 <fizzie> I don't know if Gregor installamated the bugfixed gearlance; perhaps not.
11:56:52 <fizzie> !bfjoust trivial ((>)*9(+[[-]].>)*21)* 1
11:56:55 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_trivial: 4.2
11:57:52 <ais523> btw, triplock is targeted specifically against the sequence ]]]
11:58:11 <ais523> you'll see trivial's score drop if you change the [[-]] to [[[-]]], not that there's any reason to really do that directly
11:58:22 <ais523> it's because things like [-[++[+]]] are quite common that it's a good tactic
11:58:48 <ais523> (things like ]]...] also fall to it)
11:58:58 <ais523> (where you can interpret the ... as an ellipsis, or as waiting three cycles)
11:59:42 <fizzie> !bfjoust trivial (>)*9(+[[[-]]]>)*21
11:59:45 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_trivial: 8.6
12:00:14 <ais523> let me try that against triplock3 in egojsout, to see if it actually finishes in a plausible length of time
12:07:07 <ais523> looks like it'll "only" be ten thousand cycles or so
12:07:30 <ais523> fizzie: I thought of a new statistic for you to graph, btw: for each program, the average length of time before it wins, and before it loses
12:07:50 <ais523> (before it draws would potentially be useful, but only if there were simultaneous-loss draws rather than timeout draws, and I'm not sure if there are any on the hill)
12:09:17 <fizzie> I'll try that out at home. I already have an average-duel-length graph, but it's sorted according to left/right program, not the win/loss result.
12:09:42 <ais523> if a program tends to win slowly but lose quickly, for instance, it's likely defence
12:17:36 <ais523> I also want to adapt juiced to attempt to determine the reason for a win or loss
12:17:47 <ais523> which obviously can't always be done automatically, but there are some cases where you can make a good guess
12:21:44 <fizzie> Since you're not above using cheap tactics, here's a mostly-constant evo4 tweak that I think beats waterfall, purely to screw up your +-row. (At least it did in egojsout unless I misran something.)
12:21:48 <fizzie> !bfjoust evo4 ((-)*8>)*9((-)*128.[.(-)*1]+.>)*21
12:21:59 <EgoBot> Score for fizzie_evo4: 15.1
12:22:01 <fizzie> Whoops, I forgot the underscore in the name.
12:22:29 <fizzie> At least it's at the bottom so you can displace it easily. But the table has a - in it now.
12:22:42 <ais523> wow, Epiphany is so much faster than Firefox at egojsout
12:22:51 <ais523> which is strange, because Chromium wasn't when I tested
12:23:43 <ais523> but then it crashes/freezes when I try to run the animation
12:24:06 <cheater00> i think they had a js engine update at some point late last year
12:24:42 <cheater00> ais523: can you link me up to bfjsout?
12:24:59 <ais523> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/
12:25:02 <ais523> it's actually called egojsout
12:26:41 <ais523> the plot thickens: Epiphany itself was working fine, just the egojsout tab itself was broken
12:28:13 <cheater00> so ais523 how does bfjoust work exactly?
12:28:15 <ais523> could someone else try this run: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/?l=f9ca4256e24ba262ba77e3ff7c182288baff4dee&r=e334674b466455690582d51437a4400e7dab8f98
12:28:24 <ais523> cheater00: what do you mean by that?
12:28:33 <ais523> the language itself? the competition ecosystem?
12:28:53 -!- nooga__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
12:29:18 <ais523> basically, there's a "hill" here in #esoteric, which contains the top 48 or so programs of the past
12:29:34 <ais523> whenever anyone submits an entry, it's run against all the programs on a hill, and gains points for beating them
12:29:45 <ais523> you get more points by winning by a wider margin, or against better enemies
12:29:57 <ais523> likewise, the better the enemy or the wider the margin, the more points you lose from losing
12:30:13 <ais523> if you end up with more points than the worst program previously on the hill, you end up on the hill yourself
12:30:26 <ais523> and 42 games are run, at each of the 21 tapelengths and each of the 2 polarities
12:30:47 <ais523> (switched/reversed/"kettle" polarity is where one of the programs has all its + and - swapped to avoid trivial dependencies on which way round the program was written)
12:31:40 <cheater00> as in, how do you know which program wins?
12:31:59 <ais523> oh, a program loses if it goes off either end of the tape, or the cell it started on becomes 0 for two cycles in a row
12:32:10 <ais523> you're the second person to ask that recently, which implies to me that it should be clearer on the wiki page
12:32:26 <cheater00> i was unable to find the wiki page by googling
12:32:39 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
12:32:58 <ais523> what /did/ you find by googling, if not that?
12:34:49 <ais523> also, isn't looking on Esolang typical for finding definitions of esoprogramming langauges?
12:35:54 <fizzie> Google for me when searching for "bfjoust" is all "Showing results for joust. Search instead for bfjoust."
12:36:19 <fizzie> But after searching-instead like it suggests, the wiki-page is first.
12:38:11 <ais523> aha, "bfjoust" or "BF joust" gives Esolang
12:38:24 <ais523> but hits for "brainfuck joust" are retroprogramming (impomatic's blog) and Agora
12:38:51 * ais523 creates redirect at [[Brainfuck Joust]]
12:43:45 * cheater00 is at a lowered mental capacity today
12:43:56 <cheater00> yup, mensa was definitely wrong about me :D
12:45:31 <ais523> I don't see how expanding an abbreviation and not realising that would confuse Google is a sign of stupidity
12:45:32 <ais523> given that normally it makes Google less confused
12:46:41 <Gregor> Latest xkcd: Worst ever?
12:47:45 <cheater00> ais523: well according to elliottt everything i do is a sign of stupidity :)
12:47:55 <ais523> Gregor: I think it's just a complaint in comic form
12:48:19 <ais523> (a reference to the fact that many sites, when visiting any of the pages on their main site on a mobile, redirect to the homepage of the mobile site, not the corresponding page on the mobile site)
12:48:21 <Gregor> With no comedic value whatsoever.
12:48:42 <cheater00> haha that's cool, they sneaked zalgo into google search results
12:53:34 <variable> ais523: *cough* reddit *cough*
12:56:25 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
13:11:03 -!- oerjan has joined.
13:16:27 <ais523> hmm, I just went and clarified http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust, and removed most of the gratuitous italics
13:25:27 <oerjan> • pikhq_ wonders how Ferrero has the balls to claim that Nutella is an exceptionally healthy food.
13:25:34 <oerjan> ferrero has the _best_ balls
13:26:55 <oerjan> <Gregor> "Bieng diagnsoed with a seriuos illenss or giong throguh a divocre ofetn triggres derpession."
13:27:01 <oerjan> also apparently dyslexia
13:27:53 <oerjan> or wait are they doing it on _purpose_ to avoid filters?
13:28:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
13:30:08 -!- ais523 has joined.
13:50:01 <cheater00> oerjan: http://chzmemebase.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/memes-you-code-in-c-son-i-am-disappoint.jpg
13:50:04 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
13:53:07 <Gregor> oerjan: It's intentional, I just enjoyed "derpession" :P
13:57:02 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
13:59:51 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:01:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:05:38 <quintopia> why have i been repeatedly pinged about space elevator?
14:06:37 <oerjan> i vaguely recall ais523 was about to write something on the wiki about it
14:07:26 <fizzie> It was also on my list of 5 longest programs on the hill.
14:08:45 <oerjan> with that name, ought to be _the_ longest
14:09:02 -!- pikhq has joined.
14:09:10 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
14:23:03 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
14:28:01 <quintopia> well, it was _the_ longest when i first submitted it, which was part of the reason for giving it that name
14:29:10 <fizzie> It still is, if you just discount Gregor's "Big Girls" series (FFSPG/FFLDG).
14:34:56 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
14:40:40 <fizzie> What, it's not an official name?-)
14:42:26 <quintopia> well, i suppose it is still the longest program that was hand-assembled (the only generated parts are the defend sequences)
14:51:40 <Gregor> My program was assembled by the loving hands of Perl :P
14:55:46 -!- augur has joined.
15:00:31 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
15:01:01 -!- cheater00 has joined.
15:01:22 <ais523> quintopia: waterfall3 was assembled by hand, with a bit of help from copy and paste
15:01:28 <ais523> but I think it's probably a bit shorter
15:01:51 <quintopia> ais523: so sayeth fizzie's measurements earlier.
15:03:32 <ais523> meanwhile, I just spent an hour or so benchmarking recursive hardware
15:03:53 -!- mariolone has joined.
15:03:54 -!- mariolone has left (?).
15:03:59 <ais523> using the famously inefficient fibonacci example as the benchmark (the fib(n) = fib(n-1) + fib(n-2) definition, plus base cases, without memoization or anything like that)
15:04:13 <ais523> it can be, although it's fun seeing your code running on the hardware
15:04:27 <ais523> the CPU still outperforms it, but only by a factor of 4 or so
15:04:58 <ais523> if it's only slower by a factor of 4, it's going to be much much faster when parallelised; the FPGA's quite capable of running 50 or so copies of the code at once
15:05:15 <ais523> not that that code's at all useful to run multiple copies in parallel, but the concept generalises to more useful programs
15:05:45 <quintopia> what CPU are you comparing to? is it something pipelined?
15:06:07 <ais523> it was my supervisor's MacBook
15:06:25 -!- copumpkin has joined.
15:06:57 -!- augur_ has joined.
15:07:08 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:07:19 <quintopia> was the macbook experiment run with the fib program set to run at real-time priority?
15:07:33 <ais523> no, but we weren't trying to measure that accurately
15:08:00 <ais523> (and I'm not even sure quite how you set something to realtime priority on a Mac; nor am I at all convinced that setting a process that doesn't yield and takes 30 seconds or so to run to rt priority is a good idea)
15:08:11 <quintopia> so basically, even while it was multiplexing 30 odd system services and apps, it still beat the FPGA by a factor of four? :P
15:08:26 <ais523> but I used user-time rather than realtime as the measurement, because it's more accurate to the time that a CPU-bound program takes
15:08:40 <ais523> and of course, it's a single-threaded program, so the CPU and FPGA were both executing completely sequentially
15:08:41 -!- FireFly has joined.
15:08:53 <ais523> the CPU has a faster clock rate, so you'd expect it to be faster
15:09:12 -!- asiekierka has joined.
15:10:23 <Gregor> Mac OS can't do realtime anyway.
15:10:29 <Gregor> It's even worse at realtime than Windows.
15:11:17 <ais523> and Windows is even worse than Linux
15:11:35 <ais523> which is far from good at it, without a whole bunch of customizations
15:12:48 <ais523> hmm, earthshatteringly important question: does "Brainfuck Joust" have a lowercase b when not at the start of a sentence?
15:12:52 <ais523> my guess is no as that would just be weird
15:13:30 <quintopia> i can see why you had to ask though
15:14:00 <quintopia> the earth slows down its rotation speed while such an important question hangs in the air
15:14:54 <ais523> such a pity that elliott isn't here
15:15:11 <Gregor> Correct capitalization is bRAINfUCK JOUST
15:15:14 <ais523> he'd give a definitive answer that everyone would agree with
15:15:34 <ais523> in that case I'd rather stay incorrect
15:15:43 <Gregor> ais523: Yup. I decree it canon.
15:15:44 <ais523> I suppose I should ask Kerim Aydin about it, he invented the sport in the first place
15:17:46 <coppro> I refuse to accept that Gregor might possibly even be maybe correct
15:18:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:19:30 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it is you get a crown?
15:19:51 <ais523> hmm, I can't remember; were you playing Agora when BF Joust was created?
15:19:56 <ais523> did you see the phenomenon start?
15:21:26 <ais523> hmm, I'm trying Chromium on that triplock example; it runs the actual runs quite fast, and doesn't crash on the animation, but the animation is very slow for some reason
15:22:33 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
15:23:59 <coppro> ais523: I joined after it died
15:24:30 -!- cheater00 has joined.
15:33:04 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:34:52 -!- mariolone has joined.
15:34:53 -!- mariolone has left (?).
15:36:19 <ais523> what's up with mariolone?
15:36:26 <ais523> that's the second time they've joined and quickly parted again
15:37:38 -!- mariolone has joined.
15:37:39 -!- mariolone has left (?).
15:40:33 <ais523> it's parting rather than quitting, so it's not a k-line
15:42:36 -!- mariolone1 has joined.
15:42:36 -!- mariolone1 has left (?).
15:47:11 -!- mariolone has joined.
15:47:11 -!- mariolone has left (?).
15:50:53 -!- elliott has joined.
15:51:29 <elliott> i think cheater is paid to advertise flash-aid whenever anyone has a problem with flash
15:51:34 -!- mariolone has joined.
15:51:35 -!- mariolone has left (?).
15:51:57 * Sgeo looks at Circa
15:52:01 <elliott> ais523: just uninstalls "wrong" flash versions and installs the "right" one for ubuntu, it's a firefox plugin
15:52:14 <Sgeo> I get the impression that the current syntax was hastily designed
15:52:18 <elliott> cheater suggested it because pikhq was having flash v-sync issues.
15:54:29 <elliott> 11:02:44 <fizzie> Deewiant: You might find http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/tmp.gif amusing too; the reference might be lost on non-.fi people, though.
15:54:29 <elliott> I'm pretty sure at least 80% of people in the world* know at least Jukka Korpela's site, but I'm struggling to find the reference. (The character encoding?)
15:54:33 <elliott> *figure not made up, absolutely true
15:58:42 <elliott> 13:55:46 <ais523> hmm, I just went and clarified http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust, and removed most of the gratuitous italics
15:58:42 <elliott> 13:55:48 <ais523> is it better now?
15:58:48 <elliott> ais523: did you fix the terrible organisation?
16:00:00 <elliott> ais523: at least, calamari looked at the wiki page and had to ask in here to figure out HTF you won a match; I have a feeling that the losing condition isn't prominent enough... blergh, it's terribly rewritten, I'll rewrite it once I finish integrating Guile into mcmap
16:00:30 <ais523> I fixed the formatting and added more explanation
16:00:37 <ais523> but it could still do with being organised a bit better
16:01:29 <ais523> fun fact: on tape length 29, kettle polarity, waterfall3 takes 97389 cycles to beat simple, and at the time its flag has value -11 and is being cleared upwards with a 2-cycle clear
16:01:39 <ais523> in other words, there are only 22 cycles in it after 97389
16:02:04 <ais523> it'd make a great example for the wiki, except it'd kill everyone's browsers
16:02:11 <ais523> shall I put it in anyway? waterfall3 doesn't really win on short tapes
16:02:24 <ais523> also, did you update interior_crocodile_alligator? it's started beating waterfall3 for no obvious reason
16:03:25 <ais523> especially as it should lose to it quite badly, strategy-wise
16:03:58 <elliott> probably chainlance got another shiny bug or something
16:05:13 <ais523> it's fizzie_evo4, updated to beat waterfall3
16:05:25 <elliott> 15:52:11 <ais523> hmm, earthshatteringly important question: does "Brainfuck Joust" have a lowercase b when not at the start of a sentence?
16:05:25 <elliott> 15:52:15 <ais523> my guess is no as that would just be weird
16:05:30 <elliott> there's no such thing as Brainfuck Joust
16:05:38 <elliott> If you really wanted to expand it, maybe "brainfuck joust"
16:05:41 <ais523> it was called Brainfuck Joust in the original contract
16:05:46 <elliott> Or Brainfuck Joust at the start of a sentence!
16:05:52 <elliott> ais523: yes, but we don't play a game anything like that any more.
16:06:00 <ais523> people still search for it, though
16:06:19 <ais523> two people had to ask for the win condition, one couldn't find it in the wiki page, the other couldn't find the wiki page via Google
16:06:20 <elliott> ais523: no, cheater searches for it, and cheater is a troll and a (possibly on-purpose) idiot
16:06:32 <elliott> calamari's confusion was due to bad wiki page organisation :P
16:06:41 <elliott> 15:54:17 <ais523> such a pity that elliott isn't here
16:06:41 <elliott> 15:54:37 <ais523> he'd give a definitive answer that everyone would agree with
16:06:41 <elliott> hey, I still think , should give 0 on EOF for majority compliance
16:06:45 <elliott> and you never agreed to that
16:06:51 <ais523> is that majority compliance?
16:07:05 <ais523> I'm not sure there's enough evidence, considering how many crappy BF interps there are
16:07:13 <elliott> ais523: well, all the implementations that matter use , = 0 on EOF, apart from dbc's, which use no-change
16:07:28 <ais523> I think programs should be written to allow no-change or 0 on EOF, with a trivial fix for if it's actually -1
16:07:33 <ais523> but that's another matter
16:07:40 <elliott> else if( z->c == ',' ){ m[mp] = getchar(); continue; }
16:07:47 <elliott> I don't think EOF is guaranteed to be -1
16:07:51 <ais523> also, I think interps with more than an 8-bit tape should use -1 or no-change
16:08:00 <ais523> but there aren't many of those
16:08:00 <elliott> 8-bit tape is also canon :P
16:08:25 <elliott> also, , being 0 is more elegant in most code
16:08:30 <ais523> so, should I post this 97389-cycle monstrosity on the wiki as an example of waterfall3?
16:08:32 <elliott> because the loop structure is fundamentally based on 0
16:08:39 <elliott> using my wonderful template
16:08:49 <ais523> even though you need a powerful computer to run it and a browser really good at JS?
16:08:56 <ais523> I'm definitely going to describe the program on the wiki
16:09:04 <ais523> but I need to know which example to use
16:09:13 <ais523> and that one shows off quite a lot of what the program can do, but it's so long
16:10:33 <elliott> <ais523> even though you need a powerful computer to run it and a browser really good at JS?
16:10:42 <elliott> This is where we see the fine border between ais523
16:10:48 <elliott> This is where we see the fine border between ais523's universe and everyone else's universe.
16:11:02 <ais523> also, what's the wikisyntax for kettle polarity?
16:13:38 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
16:14:27 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:14:58 -!- cheater- has joined.
16:15:01 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
16:15:12 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:15:13 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Inverted polarity for people who have a problem with being clear.
16:15:14 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, +-
16:16:12 -!- elliott has joined.
16:16:37 -!- elliott has changed nick to Guest97317.
16:16:46 <Phantom_Hoover> It heard you saying you were going to leave it for Wayland.
16:16:46 <Guest97317> 16:26:14 <Phantom_Hoover> http://i.imgur.com/5FkE7.jpg 16:26:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I *really* hope this is genuine.
16:17:04 -!- Guest97317 has changed nick to Guest97318.
16:18:04 <Gregor> elliott: Just not happy with that guest number? :P
16:18:18 -!- Guest97318 has changed nick to Guest97319.
16:19:49 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:20:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Phantom__Hoover.
16:20:20 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:20:23 -!- Phantom__Hoover has changed nick to Phantom___Hoover.
16:20:42 -!- Phantom___Hoover has changed nick to Phantom____Hoove.
16:20:56 -!- Phantom____Hoove has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
16:21:46 -!- fungot has changed nick to fungou.
16:21:57 -!- fungou has changed nick to fungov.
16:22:01 <fizzie> Oh no, it's contagious!
16:22:25 -!- Guest97319 has changed nick to Guest97320.
16:22:34 * Gregor is now known as Gregor
16:22:43 -!- Guest97320 has changed nick to Guest194640.
16:22:57 -!- Guest194640 has changed nick to Guest389280.
16:23:08 -!- Guest389280 has changed nick to Guest15153891840.
16:23:23 -!- Guest15153891840 has quit (Quit: overflow).
16:23:23 <Vorpal> as long as it isn't Ackermann
16:24:39 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
16:25:28 -!- elliott_ has joined.
16:25:42 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott.
16:25:55 <elliott> And that, friends, is why you always identify.
16:26:14 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
16:26:26 -!- cheater- has joined.
16:28:39 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:30:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Exponentials.
16:31:05 <fizzie> Oh, the silliness has passed?
16:31:07 -!- fungov has changed nick to fungot.
16:31:33 <elliott> char is always at least 8 bits, right?
16:32:17 <fizzie> At least in C99 it is.
16:32:27 <fizzie> Might well be in earlier editions too.
16:32:27 <elliott> packet_add_byte(p, (jbyte) scm_to_char(scm_car(scheme_field)));
16:32:38 <elliott> At least I think jbytes are signed.
16:33:02 <fizzie> So the name would suggest so.
16:36:18 <ais523> btw, before anyone shouts at me, waterfall3's constants were tweaked by a genuine genetic algorithm, not just evolutionary
16:36:26 <ais523> it even did crossover/sexual reproduction
16:37:09 <Phantom_Hoover> What's the difference between genetic and evolutionary?
16:37:25 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
16:38:04 <ais523> genetic's a subtype that has reproduction and a genotype, IIRC
16:39:35 -!- cheater- has joined.
16:42:40 <variable> ais523: I'm taking a bio class now *sigh*
16:46:21 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
16:47:47 <ais523> heh, my description of waterfall3 is really long compared to the others
16:48:11 <ais523> but I was trying to explain what the program actually did, and it's less simple than most of the other descriptions as there are so many cases
16:49:15 <ais523> anyway, I think the triplock is going to turn up a lot more in the future
16:49:22 <ais523> given that two of the best current programs use it
16:52:06 <ais523> also, how come ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys is doing so well
16:52:15 <ais523> is 4 decoys the most common number at the moment?
16:52:48 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
16:52:49 <variable> elliott: char is always 8 bits in all versions of C
16:53:03 -!- cheater- has joined.
16:53:09 <variable> ais523: in C89 it is. In C99 it is. perhaps pre-standard it wasn't
16:53:16 <ais523> it's allowed to be more than 8, although the only other values I know of it having are 9 (some old mainframes), and 32 (DSPs)
16:53:23 <ais523> why do you think CHAR_BIT is in the standards?
16:53:29 <ais523> it does have to be 8 in POSIX, though
16:53:34 <ais523> !bfjoust triple_tripwire_avoider (+)*20(++>)*4(-->[>>(>[+[--[(-)*120[-]]]])*21])*23(>++[-])*2
16:53:36 <variable> ais523: erm your right. I should have said "at least 8 bits"
16:54:04 <variable> ais523: I was thinking at least but didn't type it. Meh
16:54:56 -!- elliott_ has joined.
16:55:44 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
16:55:47 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
16:55:50 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:55:50 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
16:55:50 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:56:28 <elliott_> ais523: more chainlance bugs? ;)
16:56:34 <variable> !bfjoust do_nothing_forever [.]
16:56:36 <ais523> no, it hasn't even started
16:56:57 <ais523> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/report.txt
16:57:10 <ais523> and http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/breakdown.txt is stats for the last/current run
16:57:17 <ais523> it's still showing the last run, which is a sign that it hasn't started
16:57:47 <variable> I'm curious to see how well do nothing will do
16:58:51 <EgoBot> Score for variable_do_nothing_forever: 5.7
16:58:51 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_triple_tripwire_avoider: 37.7
16:59:20 <variable> wow - I won Gregor_ill_bet_you_have_four_decoys.bfjoust vs variable_do_nothing_forever.bfjoust
16:59:28 <ais523> it's a tripwire avoider
16:59:39 <ais523> !bfjoust _double_tripwire_avoider <
16:59:55 <EgoBot> Score for ais523__double_tripwire_avoider: 0.0
17:00:00 <ais523> !bfjoust quadruple_tripwire_avoider (+)*20(++>)*4(-->[>>>(>[+[--[(-)*120[-]]]])*21])*23(>++[-])*2
17:00:13 <variable> <EgoBot> Score for variable_do_nothing_forever: 5.7 --> heh
17:00:23 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_quadruple_tripwire_avoider: 26.3
17:00:32 <ais523> !bfjoust quadruple_tripwire_avoider <
17:00:35 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_quadruple_tripwire_avoider: 0.0
17:00:47 <ais523> !bfjoust quintuple_tripwire_avoider (+)*20(++>)*4(-->[>>>>(>[+[--[(-)*120[-]]]])*21])*23(>++[-])*2
17:00:59 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_quintuple_tripwire_avoider: 24.3
17:01:11 <ais523> !bfjoust quintuple_tripwire_avoider <
17:01:14 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_quintuple_tripwire_avoider: 0.0
17:01:20 <ais523> !bfjoust sextuple_tripwire_avoider (+)*20(++>)*4(-->[>>>>>(>[+[--[(-)*120[-]]]])*21])*23(>++[-])*2
17:01:23 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_sextuple_tripwire_avoider: 23.5
17:01:28 <ais523> !bfjoust sextuple_tripwire_avoider <
17:01:31 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_sextuple_tripwire_avoider: 0.0
17:01:34 <ais523> looks like 3's optimum on the current hill
17:02:08 <ais523> I suspect optimal tripwire avoidance count will rise as time goes on, with current strategies
17:02:38 <ais523> I should say, current trends
17:04:21 <ais523> attack and defence are so different nowadays
17:04:29 <ais523> as you get to try a whole load of different defences if you like
17:04:34 <ais523> but when you use an attack, you have to commit to it
17:04:48 <ais523> unless it's a really slow one, which is counterproductive
17:07:35 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:09:08 <variable> !bfjoust this_change_anything [.<>.]
17:09:11 <EgoBot> Score for variable_this_change_anything: 0.0
17:09:14 <variable> !bfjoust this_change_anything [..]
17:09:23 <EgoBot> Score for variable_this_change_anything: 4.4
17:10:33 <ais523> the score of a nop is a reflection of the number of tripwire-avoiders on the hill, more than anything else
17:11:00 <ais523> (pure draws don't add to score for whatever reason, so it doesn't count pure defenders as well like you might expect it to, not that pure defenders really exist nowadays)
17:13:45 <EgoBot> Score for variable_just_do_this: 4.2
17:14:08 <variable> ais523: I enjoy seeing how simple strategies do in various games.
17:14:16 <EgoBot> Score for variable_just_do_that: 0.0
17:14:27 <EgoBot> Score for variable_just_do_that: 4.2
17:14:43 <EgoBot> Score for variable_only_add: 5.9
17:15:01 -!- copumpkin has joined.
17:15:01 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
17:15:01 -!- copumpkin has joined.
17:15:42 <ais523> hmm, after reading through discussion at Agora, it's struck me that if I were very evil I could submit a huge number of copies of waterfall3 and push all other programs off the hill (this always happens if you have a program that beats everything, and submit enough copies of it)
17:15:53 <ais523> but I won't, because there wouldn't be much point
17:17:39 <ais523> of when BF Joust was created
17:17:52 <elliott_> ais523: hmm, would that still apply with the fixed point scoring system?
17:19:06 <ais523> given that it obviously draws with itself, that might make a foothold hard to gain
17:19:09 <ais523> it's not obvious either way to me
17:19:40 <ais523> it's automatically backed up
17:19:42 <ais523> but I wouldn't suggest it
17:19:47 <ais523> it'll definitely work on the /current/ hill
17:19:52 <elliott_> Gregor: Back up the entire hill manually
17:19:56 <ais523> it's all hypothetical future hills that the issue's about
17:20:10 <Gregor> The hill is in Mercurial anyway.
17:20:42 <elliott_> !bfjoust ais523_waterfall3_1 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ais523_waterfall3.bfjoust
17:20:48 <EgoBot> Score for elliott__ais523_waterfall3_1: 55.6
17:20:49 <elliott_> !bfjoust ais523_waterfall3_2 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ais523_waterfall3.bfjoust
17:20:53 <EgoBot> Score for elliott__ais523_waterfall3_2: 53.5
17:21:16 <ais523> anyway, time to go home
17:21:19 <elliott_> ais523: they're actually getting a worse score each time
17:21:27 <elliott_> also, wow, this one is going slowly
17:21:38 <elliott_> Gregor: the question is whether it'll push everything else off
17:22:00 <Gregor> It will, it'll get lower scores but still form a higher block.
17:22:16 <ais523> yep, that's obvious on the current hill
17:22:17 <elliott_> Right. Which is a flaw in the scoring system :P
17:22:23 <elliott_> I'll stop now, Gregor should probably revert that.
17:22:26 <ais523> I recommend you put the hill back to normal, anyway, at some point
17:22:36 <elliott_> better to revert, since things will have been pushed off
17:22:36 <ais523> to protect it from elliott's evil experimentation
17:23:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:27:25 <Gregor> !bfjoust i_regret_everything <
17:27:28 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_i_regret_everything: 0.0
17:30:50 <Gregor> Easiest way to get it to rerun the hill :P
17:36:13 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:37:39 -!- copumpkin has joined.
17:37:39 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
17:37:39 -!- copumpkin has joined.
17:38:34 -!- cheater00 has joined.
17:39:14 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:53:50 <variable> Gregor: where is your hg repo of the channel logS?
17:57:22 <elliott_> Gregor: I thought they were public now
17:57:51 <Gregor> They're public if they're in the /topic X-P
17:58:00 <Gregor> Idonno, I may or may not care, I vacillate on that :P
17:58:27 * elliott_ sets up a bot to download all of Gregor's logs every five seconds.
17:58:50 * variable watches elliott_'s internet connection slow down
17:59:24 <variable> is there a difference - lets see
17:59:34 <elliott_> those programs are literally identical
17:59:41 <elliott_> if they get a different score it's because of things being pushed off the hill
17:59:53 <Gregor> Somebody should make a scientific computing botnet ... spread a virus, hack a bunch of machines, then use them to cure cancer :P
18:00:03 <EgoBot> Score for variable_one: 4.1
18:00:03 <EgoBot> Score for variable_two: 4.1
18:00:15 <elliott_> Gregor: It's called Folding@Home
18:00:24 <Gregor> The keyword here is "botnet"
18:00:31 <Gregor> As in "spread by virii"
18:00:54 <Gregor> Oy, that is so many levels of bullshit.
18:00:57 <elliott_> ("Hey, you, install F@H! Join my team!" "Okay!")
18:01:10 <elliott_> Gregor: Fictional Richard Dawkins FUMES AT YOU
18:01:48 <Gregor> Somebody should box up Folding@Home with an actual worm, thereby forcing anybody too stupid to upgrade from Windows $OBSOLETE to at least cure cancer :P
18:02:02 <variable> Gregor: how are memes bullshit ?
18:02:06 <elliott_> Gregor: It has been bandied about too many times that someone should make a virus that upgrades IE.
18:02:25 <elliott_> (Upgrades it to Firefox, say X-P)
18:02:40 <Gregor> variable: The description of that as a virus, given my previous statements, is just being a contrarian asshat.
18:02:56 <variable> elliott_: on any windows computer I touch I replace IE with with FF and change the image icon to the IE logo
18:03:05 <elliott_> Me? A contrarian asshat? My my!
18:03:18 <elliott_> variable: You should probably not touch too many Windows computers.
18:03:18 <Gregor> elliott_: I know, it's so unlike you!
18:04:56 <elliott_> Ooh, there's an interesting GC concept. I should steal it for @.
18:05:15 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
18:05:55 <elliott_> Gregor: @ = elliottOS, my pie-in-the-goddamn-sky pipe dream of an OS; and
18:06:09 <elliott_> Gregor: http://wingolog.org/archives/2011/02/25/ports-weaks-gc-and-dark-matter grep /garbage collectors, yo/
18:06:17 <elliott_> (It's a meta-post-of-posts, the rest is irrelevant.)
18:06:34 <elliott_> (The Linux/x86 stuff is of course irrelevant, it's the GC concept itself that would work well in an OS environment.)
18:08:01 <Gregor> Oh that's clever, using the page fault as your barrier.
18:08:33 <elliott_> And an OS might actually be able to get away with constantly running a GC...
18:08:40 <Gregor> Seems like it would be difficult to guarantee that /eventually/ all pointers get changed, so it's not clear from this tiny description how to ever reuse memory space, but *eh* :P
18:09:09 <elliott_> Actually I wonder if you don't _have_ to run the GC _all_ the time...
18:09:12 <elliott_> As in, just have it as a regular thread.
18:09:18 <elliott_> (I was thinking about devoting an entire core to it.)
18:09:36 <elliott_> (Consider that 4, 6, 8 core systems are becoming ubiquitous. 4-core, at least.)
18:10:08 <elliott_> Gregor: Mind you, in the context of @, it's going to be GC'ing *disk*.
18:10:13 <elliott_> Which is going to be ... interesting ...
18:10:14 <Gregor> Eventually having only one core for GC won't scale, but for the time being *shrugs*
18:10:23 <elliott_> Oh, I just mean one core constantly in use :P
18:10:40 <Gregor> Eventually having only one core constantly in use for GC won't scale.
18:10:51 <elliott_> Gregor: Specifically, because in @, memory is just cache of disk, and both memory and disk map to artificial 64-bit address space...
18:11:00 <elliott_> So GC happens at the disk level, basically.
18:11:25 <elliott_> Although probably 90% of GC will be done at the memory level, partial GCing of the disk does have to happen *occasionally* (preferably very spread out).
18:11:29 <elliott_> Like say when you run out of disk.
18:11:43 <elliott_> Doing it partially would be far preferable to scanning the whole disk, though X-D
18:12:42 <elliott_> * Gregor slowly backs away from the madman.
18:14:21 <elliott_> Gregor: That's Gregor for "slowly backs away from the madman", right?
18:16:26 <Gregor> *eh* (i): An interjection meaning, roughly "I find this so unlikely to reach fruition that its details are irrelevant."
18:17:20 <elliott_> Gregor: Hey man, I've written SEVERAL boot sectors.
18:17:35 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:18:13 <Sgeo> What were my suggestions for polarity names?
18:18:43 <Sgeo> Source and Antisource I think
18:22:51 * pikhq concludes that elliott needs an injection of time
18:23:46 <elliott_> pikhq: I wish to become a TIME JUNKIE.
18:24:05 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, CLEARLY YOU NEED TO ACCELERATE THE EARTH TO RELATIVISTIC SPEEDS
18:27:02 <elliott_> "I don't know Guile, so forgive me for asking, but why all the parentheses (particularly closing parentheses)? Even with my most parentheses ridden JavaScript or Python code, I've never seen so many. o.o
18:27:02 <elliott_> Even with a text editor that highlights matching pairs of paren's/brackets with good accuracy, I would think it'd be difficult to keep track with that many."
18:27:18 <elliott_> THERE ARE PYTHON AND JAVASCRIPT PROGRAMMERS WHO DO NOT KNOW WHAT LISP IS
18:28:49 <elliott_> What is it with libertarians and pretending to be confused to express their idiotic viewpoints?
18:28:51 <elliott_> "I'm confused, why should the government have any say in whatever negotiations I make with an employer?"
18:28:53 <elliott_> Seriously, they do it all the time.
18:29:05 <elliott_> It's always phrased as the innocent question borne of ignorance; the genuine confusion.
18:29:18 <elliott_> Gregor: LAUGHING IS NOT CRYING, THIS SITUATION CALLS FOR CRYING.
18:29:32 <cheater00> i'm confused, why would you be deciding about what a libertarian should or should not be saying?
18:33:17 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:34:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
18:34:28 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:37:17 <elliott_> pikhq: Wanna try and answer my Haskell code structure question? :-P
18:38:09 <Sgeo> "In Australia, you don't have to put .au"
18:38:51 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/06/AR2011030602662.htmlhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/06/AR2011030602662.html
18:39:08 <cheater00> i can't believe elliott is infecting this channel with questions about mainstream programming langs
18:39:17 <cheater00> might as well start talking about php
18:40:11 <Sgeo> No, my professors are the worst.
18:40:56 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, you have cheater00 on ignore
18:41:30 <elliott_> Everybody has cheater on ignore.
18:41:33 <cheater00> Phantom_Hoover: no, that was after you dropped off the deep end!
18:41:38 <elliott_> Well, at least three channel regulars (including me).
18:41:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo doesn't, and was coming dangerously close to taking relationship advice from him.
18:42:00 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: I know, I was watching.
18:42:00 <cheater00> elliott_: are the other two channel regulars other personalities in your head?
18:42:41 <cheater00> Phantom_Hoover: how cute, you'd see Sgeo have a shitty life rather than have me talk to him.
18:42:56 <Sgeo> cheater00, I'm not going to become an asshole.
18:43:17 <Sgeo> cheater00, which is why I'm ignoring your advice
18:43:31 <cheater00> Sgeo: the world has enough assholes as it is.
18:43:56 <Phantom_Hoover> The only way to get rid of him is if oerjan comes to his senses and bans him or noöne feeds him.
18:44:13 <elliott_> Talking about this in-channel is feeding.
18:49:12 <olsner> elliott_: how goes the shenanigans?
18:49:34 <elliott_> olsner: Well, I think the packing stuff will work. Haven't worked on it much; have been busy integrating Guile into mcmap.
18:49:58 <olsner> but... how will that help bring forth a boot-sector forth?
18:50:11 <elliott_> Obviously I'm going to rewrite it in SCHEME
18:50:14 <elliott_> With a 10-byte Scheme runtime.
18:54:19 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:02:14 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:02:24 -!- cheater- has joined.
19:05:34 <elliott_> "PAD is a catalog of the author's attempt to lift each and every item in his apartment with his dick. Nothing is spared his strength—from the furniture to the walls, from the coins in the coin jar to the cards in the card decks." --an actual book.
19:07:06 <elliott_> It reads like a parody book description :P
19:07:24 <elliott_> As in, a parod...ical {book description}
19:08:16 -!- copumpkin has joined.
19:20:38 -!- Patashu has joined.
19:28:28 <elliott_> Patashu: you should be able to get on the current bf joust hill without studying extensively; Gregor (and quintopia) started out doing silly programs that only won in certain cases, and their strategies gradually evolved to what they are now
19:29:46 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
19:30:02 <Gregor> Why did you parenthesize quintopia :P
19:30:44 <elliott_> Because ISTR quintopia did slightly less stupid things than you to startwith :)
19:31:25 <Gregor> !bfjoust gregor_still_does_stupid_things (>)*9([[-]]>)*21
19:32:31 -!- elliott_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:33:00 -!- elliott has joined.
19:33:01 <EgoBot> Score for Gregor_gregor_still_does_stupid_things: 17.0
19:34:59 -!- copumpkin has joined.
19:38:05 * oerjan swats Gregor for stupid naming -----###
19:38:22 <olsner> Gregor: what happened to your naming convention? it should be masochistic_slave_gregor or something
19:39:36 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
19:44:55 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:47:07 -!- copumpkin has joined.
19:51:21 <Gregor> oerjan, olsner: Come on, this was a once-off :P
19:53:21 <olsner> no excuse, you need to be careful about these things
19:53:30 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
19:54:23 <elliott> let's kill Gregor with forky knives
19:55:06 <olsner> treat him to ye olde plastic forks with serrated edges
19:56:20 <olsner> I hate it when they display the whole episode before it happens, and/or show a recap of the previous episode, but in a way that it's not clear which it is
19:57:37 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.09: 128k+64k+32k+8k+2k+3x1k to Japan, 512k+8k to China, 2k to Cambodia, 4k to New Zealand, 2k+/32 to Australia, 512k+256k to Thailand, /32 to Pakistan.
19:58:33 <elliott> olsner: i hate it when flies die.
19:58:41 <oerjan> > chr $ 128+64+32+8+2+3
19:59:03 <olsner> elliott: no you don't, you don't care the least
19:59:18 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Int'
19:59:34 <elliott> ghc is the only compiler with like three error messages
20:00:00 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:00:36 -!- Behold has joined.
20:01:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:04:35 -!- TLUL has joined.
20:07:45 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:09:14 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:09:50 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:10:16 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:21:28 <oerjan> YOUR FREE PREVIEW IS OVER
20:50:29 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a Debian problem and noöne on #debian cares, so I'll have to grin and bear it.
20:51:45 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:09:26 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
21:10:17 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:14:34 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:20:24 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:24:56 -!- TLUL has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:26:15 <Ilari> Heh. If >0.35 blocks more are used by APNIC this week (there's 4 days for that), then the equivalent of whole APNIC ERX space (~1.55 blocks) has been wiped out in 2 weeks. :-/
21:28:59 <Ilari> Apparently ERX space is 1.58 blocks or thereabouts.
21:30:59 -!- mtve has quit (*.net *.split).
21:30:59 -!- Mannerisky has quit (*.net *.split).
21:33:36 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:34:31 -!- wareya has joined.
21:42:32 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:45:11 <Slereah> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/02/17/y-combinator/
21:51:26 -!- pumpkin has joined.
21:53:40 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:59:14 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:04:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:10:27 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:13:15 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:23:28 -!- pumpkin has joined.
22:24:45 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:35:49 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
22:36:24 -!- augur has joined.
22:40:06 <pikhq_> So, APNIC is going nuts.
22:41:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:46:20 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:48:23 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:48:49 <pikhq_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Baarle-Nassau_-_Baarle-Hertog-en.svg That is one crazy section of border.
22:50:31 <pikhq_> And that's a single town.
22:50:36 <pikhq_> Well, de jure two towns.
22:50:47 <pikhq_> And yes, the border *does* go right down the middle of buildings.
22:56:43 <cheater-> does it go right down the middle of rooms though?
22:57:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
22:57:55 <cheater-> i could put a couch right on the border
22:58:18 <cheater-> and be like "hey netherlands, can you reach me the potato chips"
22:58:31 <pikhq_> Thank goodness that Europe has gotten relatively sane, and so if you're entitled to be on one side of the border you're entitled to be on the other side.
22:59:00 <cheater-> and he'd be like "sure belgium, let me order my diplomats to do just that."
22:59:04 <pikhq_> I think before Schegen, it could have *technically* been illegal for you to sleep on the wrong side of your own house.
23:00:10 <cheater-> but i don't think so because in many countries border citizens (people who live in the very vincinity of the border) are usually allowed on both sides
23:01:32 <pikhq_> Though there are exceptions for those buildings that are physically on the border, allowing you to be anywhere *in the building* without going through customs.
23:01:46 <pikhq_> But if you leave through the wrong door, you're screwed.
23:01:55 <cheater-> wait are you talking about state borders?
23:02:00 <cheater-> there are customs on state borders?
23:02:17 <cheater-> well that's stupid but it's MORE understandable
23:02:48 <pikhq_> The Constitution *bans* customs on state borders, IIRC.
23:03:30 <pikhq_> And there's quite a lot of stuff crossing state borders. What with there being 50 states and all...
23:08:02 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:10:02 <fizzie> pikhq_: The Finland/Sweden border has this thing on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:M%C3%A4rket_Island_map.svg -- it's not *quite* as complex as your map though.
23:10:25 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:10:46 * pikhq_ would like to see a fractal border.
23:11:07 <fizzie> The rationale for that goes approximately "whoops, we built this lighthouse on the wrong side, and now we can't change the coastline and/or the overall land area".
23:12:59 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:34:03 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:34:08 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:35:43 -!- mtve has joined.
23:40:46 <variable> Is there any brainfuck variant with fork like command?
23:41:14 <variable> I'm thinking a fork and set cell to zero so the parent and child could do different things
23:42:03 <Ilari> Ugh... "Thanks for pointing this out. I never anticipated such high burn rate when I initially programmed the dashboard…" (Lagerholm about site bug report).
23:47:18 -!- cheater00 has joined.
23:47:41 <fizzie> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfork
23:48:09 <oerjan> fizzie: dammit i was about to type this snarky comment...
23:50:50 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:55:00 <Ilari> At the beginning of this year, APNIC had (including future allocations from IANA but excluding setaside blocks) 6.18 blocks free. It is now down to 2.80 blocks (more than 50% relative depletion in little over 2 months).
00:04:27 <coppro> what's the LaTeX for the irrational numbers?
00:06:01 * oerjan cannot quite recall a frequent single symbol for those
00:06:34 <Ilari> Contrasting to last years, how soon would that amount be used: 2010: July 1st. 2009: August 20th. 2008: August 5th. 2007: September 2nd. 2006: Would last entiere year.
00:10:04 <Ilari> We aren't even out of 1Q2011 and already APNIC has used more addresses than the entiere 1H2010 (and that year was pretty crazy there).
00:12:47 <Ilari> Old saying was that APNIC uses up a block in 6 weeks. The rate now is block in 3 weeks.
00:15:20 <Ilari> At this rate, the depletion would be end of April, begnning of May. And the rate might very well be underestimated.
00:48:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Reboot).
00:52:25 -!- oerjan has joined.
01:03:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
01:04:52 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:19:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
01:19:53 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
01:42:58 -!- augur has joined.
01:43:21 -!- elliott has joined.
01:51:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:56:10 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:57:51 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
02:10:02 -!- Patashu has joined.
02:15:42 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:18:18 -!- copumpkin has joined.
02:19:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
02:19:55 -!- klkl0000 has joined.
02:20:21 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
02:22:38 -!- klkl0000 has quit (Client Quit).
02:48:37 -!- augur has joined.
03:04:30 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:04:37 -!- pikhq has joined.
03:12:06 -!- zzo38 has joined.
03:13:38 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
03:21:35 <pikhq> The US national motto is "In God we trust".
03:22:19 <pikhq> Source, 36 U.S.C. § 302.
03:22:47 <pikhq> Any opinions on how that can possibly be anything *but* a law respecting the estabilishment of religion?
03:23:05 <pikhq> http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/36/302.html
03:23:41 <zzo38> I think it is simply a law of the motto. The reason for such motto would be becasuse the people who made up that law are religious.
03:24:02 <pikhq> Except that they are forbidden from doing such by a higher law.
03:24:52 <pikhq> Also pretty shameful, when it could have been E PLVRIBVS VNVM.
03:24:55 <Sgeo> pikhq, do you think wikisuperosity.com 's new policy is draconian?
03:25:26 <Sgeo> It's difficult for genuine new users to join
03:25:27 <zzo38> pikhq: I do not live in United States.
03:26:07 <pikhq> zzo38: 1st Amendment to the Consitutition of the United States.
03:26:30 <zzo38> What is the first amendment?
03:26:52 <pikhq> "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
03:30:12 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
03:30:23 <zzo38> I can see it is respecting the estabilishment of religion, but it does not prohibit free exercise, free speech, etc. There are other laws to prohibit the other things. I, howver, do not consider such motto law to be serious wrong thing because it is simply the motto and does nothing else.
03:30:42 <zzo38> As long as you are free to not use it, it is OK.
03:30:50 <pikhq> It's on all of our currency.
03:31:28 <pikhq> And religious people use it as justification for this being a "Christian" nation.
03:31:47 <zzo38> Yes I have seen United States money, it is on there. However there are other problems with the United States currency, too, such as the ten cent coin saying "one dime" instead of "ten cents" (Canadian coins do say the amount of cents/dollars).
03:32:33 <zzo38> pikhq: They would have to make some statutory holidays based on some things of Christian, but then they should not call them Christian holidays in that context.
03:33:01 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Sheesh).
03:33:52 <pikhq> zzo38: The only federal holiday which could be *considered* Christian is Christmas. Which, as you well know, is more a secular celebration and has been well into antiquity.
03:34:10 <zzo38> Yes I do know that, too.
03:34:34 <zzo38> In Canada we have other statutory holidays based on Christian too, not only Christmas.
03:34:36 <pikhq> Not to mention that the only thing that being a "federal holiday" means is that most federal employees get the day off.
03:35:03 <pikhq> Yes, but Canada is nominally ruled by a monarch with power bestowed by God.
03:35:04 <zzo38> Still, we should do the same, that you should not consider them Christian; just say they fall on these days
03:35:46 <zzo38> Yes I also know Canada has the queen, although the queen is really the queen of England and Canada is no longer ruled directly by the queen anyways
03:36:46 <zzo38> However is probably better to have both queen/king and government in case one does bad thing, the other side can argue to them
03:37:18 <pikhq> Nevertheless, all power in your state comes, in name, from Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.
03:37:35 <pikhq> Whereas here, all power in the states comes from the just consent of the governed.
03:38:17 <zzo38> OK, that is their title, I did not know that. I think somewhere I read an even longer title for the queen...
03:38:40 <pikhq> That is merely the title for her in her role as Queen of Canada.
03:39:26 <pikhq> She possesses an *extremely* long list of titles.
03:40:38 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> However is probably better to have both queen/king and government in case one does bad thing, the other side can argue to them
03:40:58 <elliott> <pikhq> Whereas here, all power in the states comes from the just consent of the governed.
03:41:19 <elliott> *comes from the monopoly on force.
03:41:33 <elliott> Do *you* consent to be governed by the current administration?
03:41:39 <pikhq> elliott: I am discussing the legal theory under which it operates, not the realities.
03:41:58 <pikhq> She is Queen of 14 states, Duke of Normandy, Lord of Mann, member of every order of the various commonwealth realms, an insane number of foreign honors, a number of hard-earned degrees and military awards.
03:42:10 <zzo38> In the past they would have had to do it with God and religious stuff, in these days it is not necessary but the titles are kept because of tradition; still we can have separation of church and state without having to adjust these titles as long as you still have freedom of religion; Church of England can still be as long as they are not considered part of the government.
03:42:25 <HackEgo> 329) <zzo38> However is probably better to have both queen/king and government in case one does bad thing, the other side can argue to them
03:42:41 <pikhq> zzo38: The Church of England is not merely *part* of the government.
03:42:44 <zzo38> And that no religious law exist. Statutory holidays are different thing because you can simply make the law saying which days of the year are statutory holiday, such as December 25, and so on.
03:42:57 <pikhq> zzo38: Certain bishops are in the legislature, *by merit of being bishops*.
03:43:06 <elliott> <pikhq> She is Queen of 14 states, Duke of Normandy, Lord of Mann, member of every order of the various commonwealth realms, an insane number of foreign honors, a number of hard-earned degrees and military awards.
03:43:25 <pikhq> elliott: She refuses to accept honorary degrees.
03:43:33 <pikhq> But she has 4 doctorates.
03:43:46 <elliott> pikhq: Are they "not honorary" in that she had to do the absolute minimum required work?
03:44:18 <pikhq> She received them before becoming Queen.
03:46:12 <pikhq> Yes, and she wasn't expected to become Queen.
03:47:31 <pikhq> She was 3rd in line of succession when she was born.
03:47:42 <zzo38> How is their gender relevant, except for the words you use that you are crowned with the title "Queen"?
03:48:16 <pikhq> And then shit happened.
04:04:04 <elliott> http://groups.google.com/group/net.lang.c/browse_thread/thread/afe9a2e964cffb6d#
04:04:21 -!- copumpkin has joined.
04:04:58 -!- copumpkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:05:13 -!- copumpkin has joined.
04:06:06 <elliott> http://groups.google.com/group/net.lang.c/browse_thread/thread/429e89764b656e3c#
04:07:33 <elliott> http://groups.google.com/group/net.lang.c/browse_thread/thread/1b454ad8916c2ef8# so glad this didn't catch on
04:14:33 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
04:18:44 <pikhq> *Jeeze* I've got some crazy-ass bufferbloat happening somewhere on this network.
04:19:02 <pikhq> No joke, 40ms latency to the home router.
04:22:30 <pikhq> And that's just saturating my uplink.
04:22:36 <pikhq> *Internet* uplink.
04:23:10 <pikhq> A 100Mbps link should not be showing bufferbloat from that load.
04:23:27 * pikhq tries swapping out the switch with an old 10Mbps hub
04:27:23 <pikhq> Okay, not the switch at all.
04:31:52 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
04:33:29 -!- asiekierka has joined.
04:34:30 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:34:37 -!- asiekierka has joined.
04:41:58 -!- pikhq has joined.
04:42:20 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
04:43:15 <pikhq> So, that switch seems to have immense trouble starting.
04:43:29 <pikhq> "LAWL, BROADCAST PACKETS? WUT R THOSE"
04:50:03 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:02:56 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
05:06:47 -!- Patashu has joined.
05:13:44 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
05:13:44 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
05:25:07 <zzo38> I invented some metamagic and 'patamagic feats.
05:25:41 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, 'patamagic is something I invented.
05:26:41 <zzo38> Why don't you want to know?
05:46:12 -!- FireFly has joined.
05:46:50 <zzo38> How heavy is a 12 cu.ft. solid block of gold-plated lead?
05:48:41 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
05:50:07 -!- Gregor has joined.
05:50:33 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest30242.
05:52:08 <zzo38> Actually, I figured out its mass (and a lot of other information) on Wolfram|Alpha.
05:56:26 * Sgeo dips zzo38 in.. stuff... and makes gold-plated zzo38
05:56:35 <Sgeo> Electroplating?
05:58:33 <zzo38> Why do you need gold-plated zzo38?
05:58:34 <pikhq_> ... People are convinced that Wiccans do animal and/or human sacrifice?
05:59:40 <pikhq_> Pretty sure the basic tenant is "An it harm none, do what ye will"...
06:00:27 <zzo38> Yes, I know that things, but many people are ignorant of things
06:00:46 <pikhq_> s/ignorant/maliciously wrong/
06:02:10 <zzo38> People are wrong about Christians (including Catholics) too, not only Wiccans and Pagans. Perhaps "maliciously wrong" is what Jack Chick is... his stuff is not even logical.
06:03:21 <pikhq_> The thing is, Chick is quite genuine in presenting his own beliefs.
06:04:27 <zzo38> Yes, he might be, but it is still illogical.
06:04:55 <zzo38> (Not only the words, but the pictures are also inconsistent with each other.)
06:05:01 <pikhq_> If Chick is maliciously wrong, so's every religious person, to an extent.
06:05:26 <pikhq_> Well, regarding his presentation of his own religious beliefs.
06:05:39 <pikhq_> He most *certainly* is maliciously wrong about almost everything else.
06:05:50 <pikhq_> (C.S. Lewis a Satanist? Wut?)
06:06:14 <zzo38> Yes, is what I meant, I meant maliciously wrong about everything else.
06:27:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:33:08 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
06:33:13 -!- pikhq has joined.
06:48:41 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
06:48:53 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
06:50:01 -!- augur has joined.
07:15:03 <zzo38> I want to printout the TeX logo in Wikipedia but it won't let me.
07:18:10 <zzo38> There is a SVG file, I can use that.
07:19:11 -!- mariolone has joined.
07:19:12 -!- mariolone has left (?).
07:46:56 <zzo38> Wikipedia has some technical difficulties now
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:08:56 <cheater00> i just got a captcha from a maths book
08:09:19 <cheater00> how on earth would i enter that :)
08:09:24 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game).
08:26:35 <fizzie> I would've put in A_{ij} instead, but that's just me.
08:26:57 <fizzie> reCAPTCHA does pull in math from time to time. And also non-latin scripts.
08:27:53 <zzo38> I would have put "Aij" there since it is probably how most people would have filled it in. However there was one Greek text once, I tried to do the best I could by selecting the Greek letters from the character map.
08:28:17 <zzo38> (And it did accept that.)
08:28:37 <fizzie> These three are all from reCAPTCHA: http://zem.fi/~fis/faircaptcha.png
08:29:18 <fizzie> (It was a commenting thing somewhere-or-other and I didn't have anything to say, so I didn't try filling those.)
08:30:23 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
08:31:07 <dbc> I suspect those will get thrown out because too many people who get the other word of the pair right get those wrong.
08:31:30 <dbc> (i.e. thrown out before being used to block access...)
08:31:39 <dbc> At least the Greek one.
08:35:49 <fizzie> "In ScienceSLAM each participant has 10 minutes to present their research topic to the critical audience and win their support. The form of presentation is free and can range from a more traditional talk to a dance choreography or a self-composed song. But watch out, an entertaining and informative performance is at least as important as pure scientific value! Everything is allowed to win the hearts of the crowd. And it is them to choose the hero of the night,
08:35:49 <fizzie> the winner of ScienceSLAM!"
08:43:28 -!- mariolone has joined.
08:43:28 -!- mariolone has left (?).
08:53:10 <zzo38> ScienceSLAM does seem strange thing, but they can do that if they want to.
08:54:06 <fizzie> As far as I can tell, there's no actual prize: the winner... wins, but that's it.
08:54:50 <zzo38> fizzie: I guess that is good enough. I sometimes do things and win without expecting to win a prize.
08:55:02 <zzo38> So probably other people do, too.
09:30:51 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
09:30:57 -!- cheater- has joined.
09:44:57 <cheater-> http://technabob.com/blog/2009/06/08/combimouse-if-it-aint-broke-break-it/
10:04:52 -!- augur has joined.
10:08:29 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:08:30 -!- augur_ has joined.
10:35:22 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:07:45 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
11:08:07 -!- cheater- has joined.
11:26:57 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:53:25 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
11:53:27 -!- invariable has joined.
11:53:54 -!- Patashu has quit (*.net *.split).
11:53:55 -!- myndzi\ has quit (*.net *.split).
11:53:55 -!- EgoBot has quit (*.net *.split).
11:53:55 -!- HackEgo has quit (*.net *.split).
11:53:55 -!- comex has quit (*.net *.split).
11:53:55 -!- aloril_ has quit (*.net *.split).
11:53:55 -!- ineiros has quit (*.net *.split).
11:59:24 -!- Patashu has joined.
11:59:24 -!- myndzi\ has joined.
11:59:24 -!- EgoBot has joined.
11:59:24 -!- HackEgo has joined.
11:59:24 -!- comex has joined.
11:59:24 -!- aloril_ has joined.
11:59:24 -!- ineiros has joined.
12:07:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
12:08:58 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
12:09:01 -!- pikhq has joined.
12:11:07 -!- copumpkin has joined.
12:22:01 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
12:35:25 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
12:36:58 -!- pingveno has joined.
12:45:44 -!- Guest30242 has changed nick to Gregor.
12:56:44 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN: Patashu@hotmail.com , Gmail: Patashu0@gmail.com , AIM: Patashu0 , YIM: patashu2 .).
13:28:23 -!- pumpkin has joined.
13:31:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
13:42:16 -!- asiekierka has joined.
13:46:54 -!- oerjan has joined.
13:58:55 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
14:02:04 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
14:03:14 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:07:55 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
14:08:09 -!- pikhq has joined.
14:10:26 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:13:04 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
14:24:07 -!- aloril_ has joined.
14:33:34 <ais523> !bfjoust waterfall3 http://sprunge.us/QVGQ
14:33:38 <ais523> take that, trivial clone of waterfall3!
14:35:36 -!- azaq23 has joined.
14:35:51 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_waterfall3: 56.9
14:54:05 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:58:33 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
14:59:09 -!- pikhq has joined.
15:03:20 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:05:53 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
15:08:19 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
15:13:49 -!- pikhq has joined.
15:22:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:23:52 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/fanart/in-soviet-russia.png
15:27:31 -!- elliott has joined.
15:31:35 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.03: 38x256(???)+32k+256k+/48 to Australia, 16k to Japan, 2k+256+/48 to India, 64k to China, 256 to Pakistan, 512+/32 to Indonesia, 8k to Taiwan.
15:31:53 <Ilari> I guess most of those 38 /24s to AU were for reachability testing.
15:38:30 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
15:38:31 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
15:40:44 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
15:41:53 <cheater-> Ilari: what is reachability testing?
15:41:55 <elliott> logs today were so boring.
15:43:05 <Ilari> Actually, quality-testing the newly-allocated blocks. How largely BGP annoucements for those propagate and how much junk traffict those blocks have.
15:43:56 <coppro> why are you keeping this record?
15:47:15 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
15:47:20 -!- cheater00 has joined.
15:47:56 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:06:40 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
16:23:20 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:40:06 -!- Vanny has joined.
16:40:29 -!- Vanny has left (?).
16:52:27 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:56:38 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
17:04:55 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
17:12:05 <elliott> Debian is irrelevant, ZDNet confirms it.
17:12:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The rattling makes it bearable!
17:14:58 <elliott> "For example, the default Debian distributions won’t include any proprietary firmware binary files. While that will be popular with die-hard free software fans, users who just want to use their Wi-Fi hardware and to get the most from their graphics cards won’t be happy."
17:15:00 <elliott> This is the worst article ever.
17:19:37 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
17:21:41 -!- cheater00 has joined.
17:27:09 -!- azaq23 has joined.
17:33:38 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:33:38 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:37:40 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Can't watch now, qu es?
17:38:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, Pachalbel's Canon on 4 music boxes and 2 tapes.
17:39:31 <Gregor> Gee, if only Pachelbel's Canon wasn't SATAN'S MUSIC.
17:49:49 -!- invariable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
17:50:55 -!- invariable has joined.
17:57:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:11:43 -!- augur_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:18:43 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:24:56 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:35:22 <Gregor> I wonder if BSD has something similar to GNU's backtrace(3) ...
18:38:11 <fizzie> GCC has builtins for getting stack traces, but I'm not sure if it supported symbol extraction. Perhaps not.
18:38:38 <Gregor> In my case I actually don't care about symbol extraction since most of the backtrace is functions I built at runtime :P
18:41:22 <fizzie> __builtin_return_address takes a "level" parameter and looks that many levs up the stack.
18:41:38 -!- augur has joined.
18:44:10 <fizzie> "On some machines it may be impossible to determine the return address of any function other than the current one; in such cases, or when the top of the stack has been reached, this function will return 0 or a random value."
18:44:24 <fizzie> It's not a very friendly function.
18:44:31 <Gregor> Those machines suck and are boring.
18:44:31 <fizzie> Especially that last bit.
18:47:31 <elliott> Gregor: Psht, I'm trying to stay strictly GNU C99-conformant in mcmap!
18:47:48 <elliott> This includes not assuming that any pointer can fit into a pointer of any other type :P
18:48:11 <elliott> I even have it marked as a bug that I assume a SCM object can fit inside a (void *), even though not doing so would make passing SCM arguments around SO SLOW.
18:48:16 <Gregor> elliott: Uhh, talkin' about something totally unrelated here.
18:48:19 <elliott> And even despite the fact that Guile's internal architecture assumes that.
18:48:26 <elliott> Gregor: I'm saying that your rabid standards incompliance SICKENS me.
18:48:32 <Gregor> elliott: You realize of course I write almost all C code to compile with -Wall -Werror -ansi -pedantic :P
18:48:58 <Gregor> And although I would be willing to use backtrace(3), I would conditionalize it on the appropriate support and autoconf it to detect.
18:48:59 <elliott> Gregor: I was about to ask why not C99, but OH YEAH, there's no full C99 compilers out there!
18:49:28 <elliott> Gregor: Ah! Autoconf! So that all your portability effort is worth naught on any machine that isn't at least vaguely GNU-or-modern-Unix and has a shell. :p
18:49:36 <elliott> (I suppose you could write your own Makefile for the rest.)
18:49:59 <Gregor> So, to be clear, all my portability effort is for naught if I run it on ... OS/2?
18:50:05 <elliott> Gregor: You should write K&R-compliant code instead; after all, there's that compiler C-INTERCAL works with, that compiles K&R C to 16-bit real mode code.
18:50:27 <elliott> Gregor: Also, uh, last I checked Windows doesn't have a shell. (OK, you can get a native bash/zsh for Windows, but I've never been able to run a configure with those + GNU ports.)
18:50:39 <elliott> Cygwin hardly counts, since it can't really create a Makefile that compiles with a native compiler.
18:50:46 <Gregor> SO MUCH SOFTWARE is ported that way to Windows.
18:50:55 <Gregor> But elliott's too lazy, therefore it doesn't work.
18:51:12 <elliott> Gregor: By **native** port, I mean **native**.
18:51:15 <elliott> As in, no cygwin DLL or similar.
18:51:37 <Gregor> So? That's just compile-time.
18:51:47 <elliott> Gregor: It's also a (pseudo-)GNU.
18:51:58 <elliott> So you still can't compile it on a non-pseudo-GNU-or-modern-Unix system.
18:52:07 <Gregor> That's not even vaguely true.
18:52:08 <elliott> What I'm saying is, write a configure.c.
18:52:17 <Gregor> auto* work on fucking SunOS 2.6
18:52:24 <elliott> Gregor: That's "modern" Unix.
18:52:25 <Gregor> Nothing works on HP-UX :P
18:52:55 <elliott> 2.6 came out before February 1986; modern.
18:53:25 <Gregor> If you're using a version of Unix that's older than I am, there will be NO portable build solution that works both there and on modern systems.
18:53:35 <elliott> Gregor: Like I said, configure.c.
18:53:38 <Gregor> elliott: Do you have any recollection of the fact that I worked for years at Intel doing builds of F/OSS software across various unixen on various architectures? We PRAYED for autoconf.
18:53:47 <elliott> Gregor: You realise I'm basically trolling you?
18:53:55 <elliott> For reference, 7th Edition Unix is not modern.
18:54:00 <elliott> 8th Edition is (it's just a modified BSD).
18:54:23 <elliott> Gregor: If you coded in K&R C and had a configure.c script, you could easily work on both V7 Unix and modern-day Linux.
18:54:58 <Gregor> Yes, I could easily work on exactly those two platforms :P
18:55:04 <Gregor> And I could add support for one more platform at a time!
18:55:27 <elliott> Gregor: If you write portable code, you will not require many checks at all. :p
18:55:48 <elliott> Gregor: And you can cut out all the broken-sh-workarounds in configure.
18:55:52 <elliott> Instead you get broken-libc-workarounds.
18:56:06 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
19:01:31 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:17:34 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:18:00 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:18:30 -!- elliott has joined.
19:20:06 -!- elliott_ has joined.
19:20:06 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:38:26 <Gregor> The great thing about #!/usr/bin/env is that even though #! only allows binaries, /usr/bin/env lets you use scripts as the interpreters for scripts.
19:38:40 <Gregor> With #!/usr/bin/env, it's turtles all the way down.
19:40:54 <elliott_> Gregor: The great thing about #!/usr/bin/env is that WHY DOESN'T UNIX ALLOW MORE THAN ONE ARGUMENT
19:41:04 <Gregor> Well yeah, that's very annoying ...
19:41:05 <elliott_> #!/usr/bin/env some-interp --behave-sanely --disable-breakage
19:41:11 <Gregor> There should be a #!/usr/bin/args :P
19:41:21 <elliott_> Gregor: Except that Unices can chop it after like 15 chars, I think :P
19:41:32 <elliott_> Gregor: At least with #!/usr/bin/perl you can stick a "-w" after; admittedly most languages are unbroken enough to let you do it directly.
19:41:38 <elliott_> But more than once I have had to use a fugly #!/bin/sh polyglot.
19:41:43 <elliott_> And then promptly shot myself.
19:42:02 <Gregor> #!/usr/bin/env perl\nuse strict;\nuse warnings;\n :P
19:42:42 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:42:54 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:46:25 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:58:09 -!- augur has joined.
19:59:12 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:01:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:08:25 -!- mycrofti1 has changed nick to mycroftiv.
20:11:31 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:11:44 -!- Behold has joined.
20:12:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:14:50 -!- elliott_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:15:34 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:18:25 -!- iamcal has quit.
20:23:30 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:23:31 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
20:23:31 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:27:21 -!- cal153 has joined.
20:27:53 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:29:50 -!- cal153 has quit (Client Quit).
20:30:25 -!- cal153 has joined.
20:32:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
20:32:44 -!- Behold has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:49:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:49:27 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:49:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:53:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Have I mentioned how much describing 2 as the "only even prime" annoys me.
20:56:05 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
20:56:58 <Gregor> I mean, yes, its own primality guarantees it to be the only even prime, but that doesn't make it untrue :P
20:57:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but there are so many more interesting properties of numbers that it cheapens the rest.
20:59:15 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:13:34 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:19:24 <Gregor> PL, or do you want more specific than that?
21:19:39 <Gregor> Programming languages.
21:20:17 <Phantom_Hoover> YOUR ABILITY TO OPINE ON MATHEMATICS HANGS IN THE BALANCE
21:20:26 <Gregor> When you're a grad student, CS is no longer a "specialty" :P
21:20:56 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: If done properly, CS is a form of math degree, so hey.
21:21:37 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, well, yes, but it's still a (broad) specialisation.
21:21:42 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:22:11 <Phantom_Hoover> (And depressingly few places do it properly, as APT Guy shows.)
21:23:36 -!- Behold has joined.
21:24:51 <Phantom_Hoover> APT Guy is a guy at my school who is involved at a rather hazy (but probably low) level with Ubuntu; he is pretty awful at maths, having failed the qualification you do in 5th year, and has an offer to go to Strathclyde (current home of Epigram, no less) conditional on him getting a C on his second attempt.
21:25:11 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:25:12 -!- cheater- has joined.
21:25:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Strathclyde *appeared* to be one of the places that did it properly.
21:26:33 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:44:05 -!- elliott_ has joined.
21:51:16 -!- Patashu has joined.
21:53:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
21:53:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host).
21:53:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
21:54:04 -!- Behold has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:55:27 -!- elliott has joined.
21:55:28 -!- elliott_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:55:37 <elliott> I swear to god this thing is less stable than recent Windowses.
21:55:43 <elliott> CLOSING MINECRAFT CRASHES X
21:57:07 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
21:58:18 <elliott> olsner: I swear they're deliberately trying to make X worse.
21:58:30 <Patashu> and I thought you guys would be above playing minecraft :p
21:58:36 <elliott> It's a big, big program that does nothing at all for you.
21:58:39 <pikhq> The X Windowing System, Version 11.
21:58:43 <elliott> Patashu: #esoteric-minecraft :-P
21:58:45 <olsner> it's an evil plot from the X maintainers to make wayland take over faster so they don't have to maintain the shit anymore
21:58:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Patashu, the thing which displays windows and stuff on basically all the Unix systems.
21:58:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: *fails to display
21:59:05 <pikhq> AKA a program that exists to get in between programs and devices for no reason.
21:59:32 <pikhq> Though until recently it had effectively all the drivers for the GUI.
21:59:39 <elliott> olsner: maybe i'll just use the console until wayland takes over.
21:59:56 <elliott> Maybe I'll switch to Windows :P
22:01:30 -!- augur has joined.
22:01:40 <olsner> switch to wayland, then use X-on-wayland for compatibility?
22:01:56 <elliott> olsner: compatibility: with everything, i.e. X will still own me
22:02:08 <elliott> maybe i'll just boot into OS X, except everything else about OS X sucks
22:02:52 <olsner> dunno how the X-on-wayland stuff works, but if there's either a separate "X server" for each program, or it's just libX pretending to talk to a server, you'd only crash the program itself and nothing else
22:03:24 <elliott> possibly. bet wayland is quite buggy right now though :)
22:03:25 <olsner> but it seems a bit more likely that the thing that exists is a single X server that has all the X windows and puts them all on wayland
22:03:35 <pikhq> olsner: It's a rootless X server, as on OS X.
22:03:53 <olsner> exactly, i.e. you'd be just as screwed when it crashes
22:03:55 <elliott> olsner: I know! I'll run a Windows VM with a Windows X server on it, and X-forward-via-ssh all my Linux programs there
22:04:05 <elliott> now to make virtualbox output to a framebuffer
22:06:26 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:07:15 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, why? <-- i was just checking that the read function doesn't require a decimal point in the input for Doubles
22:08:27 <elliott> but since "1" is valid syntax for a Double, it should read like that too
22:11:03 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: Read and Show don't attempt to be completely compatible with all haskell syntax you'd use in a program
22:11:54 <oerjan> the other day we noted it ignores associativity of operator constructors in data types
22:12:33 <oerjan> basically the main real requirement is that what show outputs should be parsable by read
22:13:59 <oerjan> Infinity is _not_ a legal Double value as a haskell expression
22:15:40 <elliott> oerjan: well that's a bug.
22:15:51 <elliott> <oerjan> the other day we noted it ignores associativity of operator constructors in data types
22:15:56 <elliott> yes, but it produces valid output anyway
22:16:09 <elliott> oerjan: I'd have that output infinity and have
22:16:09 <oerjan> elliott: except the haskell standard _has_ no portable expression for infinity
22:16:13 <elliott> infinity :: Whatever a => a
22:16:29 <elliott> oerjan: well then I'd do it the Scheme way, have invalid expressions show specially
22:18:37 <oerjan> might have used "(1/0)", perhaps
22:19:37 <oerjan> anyhow my impression is Read is discouraged for "real" parsing
22:21:32 <elliott> oerjan: who cares about efficiency, this is about purity!
22:21:52 <elliott> yes, 1/0 would be nice because it's valid in exactly the places the input is
22:23:27 <olsner> inefficient? that can all be optimized away!
22:24:01 <elliott> X11 applications are supported through an X server, optionally rootless, running as Wayland client, although currently it only supports Intel X.org drivers.[21]
22:24:12 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:24:16 <Patashu> 1/0 is complex infinity because you don't know if it's positive or negative
22:24:20 <Patashu> making it just 'infinity' is a loss of information
22:24:39 <elliott> Patashu: Lern2floatingpoint
22:25:11 -!- Behold has joined.
22:25:17 <Patashu> no the real answer is 'you'll never need that information ever'
22:25:26 <elliott> Patashu: that's not necessarily true
22:25:31 * oerjan swats Patashu -----###
22:25:31 <elliott> consider interval notation
22:25:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:27:07 <elliott> oerjan: implicit admission that you used 1/0 to stand for an infinity in interval notation in your phd thesis!
22:27:11 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:27:14 <elliott> AND BECAUSE OF THAT ONE AMBIGUITY OF SIGN
22:27:20 <elliott> YOUR WORK'S INHERENT FALLACIOUSNESS WENT UNDISCOVERED FOR ALL THESE YEARS
22:27:26 <Patashu> no wait I know how to solve this
22:27:45 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:27:45 <olsner> *oerjan's INHERENT FALLACIOUSNESS
22:27:48 <oerjan> elliott: doubtful, i'd have used \infty (iirc)
22:27:57 <elliott> oerjan: but that's positive infinity! maybe!
22:29:47 <oerjan> elliott: well i'm thinking that if you use the one point compactification of the real line, there's only one, and you get a circle, and if you interpret intervals as alway going the same way around the circle, the notation makes sense. also [2, 0] becomes everything >= 2 _or_ <= 0.
22:30:06 <elliott> but your degree is as good as revoked.
22:30:14 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
22:30:45 <Patashu> so you loop through infinity and come around the other side
22:30:50 <Patashu> like with negative temperatures?
22:31:19 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:31:27 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:31:42 * oerjan thinks the interval exchange systems article in his thesis _might_ be sort of close to this, vaguely
22:32:00 * elliott starts writing Ørjan Johansen: Fraud, or Nazi?
22:32:07 <elliott> to be published in a mathematical journal near you
22:33:27 <oerjan> mind you that is sort of identifying 0 and 1, not -infinity and infinity. or rather, we ended up splitting points _up_ a lot, and 0 and 1 becomes a split pair
22:35:32 <Sgeo> I'm going to assume no one's interested in hearing about KT-AT?
22:36:26 <Sgeo> She clarified that we're just friends.
22:36:43 <Sgeo> Re-clarified, I guess
22:36:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Good, now go and be creepy to someone who isn't an idiot.
22:38:52 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure I'm downgrading by talking to Other
22:40:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Are you just especially attracted to idiots or something?
22:40:20 <Phantom_Hoover> (ARE THEY THE ONLY ONES WHO WILL INDULGE YOUR SICK BLOOD FURRY FETISH)
22:40:49 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> Are you just especially attracted to idiots or something?
22:40:58 <elliott> You think there's anyone who's NOT an idiot at his ""college""?
22:41:05 <fizzie> Ooh, nice terms for the (rented) cable modems of the local cable TV/ISP hybrid: if you "replace the firmware" (which I think includes also firmware upgrades from the manufacturer, not just third-party hacks) you're responsible for paying the operator the full purchase price. (Apparently because the device is permantently "tainted" after that, and unfit for any purpose.)
22:41:08 <Sgeo> Other does not go to this college
22:41:31 <elliott> It will always have the mark.
22:41:33 <fizzie> elliott: WATER MEMORY.
22:41:38 <elliott> Kind of like rape, except... firmware!
22:41:51 <elliott> fizzie: CIRCUIT MEMORY; it's what SSDs are based on.
22:42:17 <fizzie> Yes, the conductors remember every signal that has ever passed through them. That's how homeopathy works.
22:42:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:42:46 <elliott> fizzie: It's electric water.
22:46:44 <Zwaarddijk> but uh, I heard homeopathy worked through nanobottery
22:47:30 <Zwaarddijk> the pro-homeopathy people keep changing their explanation to whatever sciencey thing is not properly understood enough by enough people, so I never keep up
22:49:02 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
22:50:58 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
22:52:13 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:52:40 -!- elliott has joined.
23:01:28 <elliott> Sweet, VirtualBox is non-deterministic.
23:05:13 <Zwaarddijk> I take it this is not the usual use of "non-deterministic" as found in complexity science and discussions of automata and such?
23:06:09 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: No, it's the usual engineering sense.
23:06:16 <elliott> Which is related, admittedly :P
23:06:19 <elliott> But I'm using it in a broad sense.
23:06:48 <Zwaarddijk> out of all people writing comp.sci. bachelor's theses at my uni currently
23:06:53 <elliott> I installed an OS and now I can't reinstall it, getting the same error each time, with completely separate VMs :P
23:07:00 <Zwaarddijk> I am the only one writing a theoretical thesis :|
23:07:01 <elliott> (Maybe it updated and I just didn't notice, though.)
23:07:17 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: Transfer immediately.
23:07:44 <Sgeo> This is r/shittyadvice, right?
23:07:54 <Deewiant> Bachelor's theses tend to be fairly nontheoretical at least around here.
23:08:11 <Gregor> Bachelor's ... theses ...
23:08:23 <elliott> Gregor: HE HAS SO MANY OF THEM.
23:08:33 <elliott> I think that's correct, though.
23:08:39 <elliott> (Bachelor's thesis)s -> Bachelor's theses.
23:08:41 <Gregor> That's not what I was referring to.
23:08:48 <Gregor> The pluralization is clearly fine.
23:09:00 <Gregor> The notion of a thesis for a bachelor's degree.
23:09:17 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Apache.
23:09:22 -!- Apache has changed nick to Sgeo.
23:09:37 <Gregor> Sgeo: That's not an Apache bug, it's an HTTP bug.
23:09:38 <Sgeo> Of course Apache woulf be registered
23:09:41 <Zwaarddijk> Gregor: unless master's theses, these don't contain any theoretical advances, they're just .. summaries of some topic
23:10:09 <elliott> (It was actually Phillip Hallam-Baker, but that's boring.)
23:10:25 <Zwaarddijk> I consider trying to summarize why relativization doesn't cut it for the P=?NP problem
23:10:27 <Sgeo> Apavhe came to mind as some radnom web thing
23:10:43 <elliott> Ha ha, you silly illiterate product of inbreeding. Wait what?
23:10:53 <elliott> Also Swedish and Finnish at the same time; twice as bad.
23:11:04 <elliott> "No drives were found." Well that's a new one.
23:12:33 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:13:18 -!- azaq23 has joined.
23:15:49 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:17:19 <Vorpal> <elliott> "No drives were found." Well that's a new one. <-- where is that from?
23:17:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Windows 7 installer. Why I'm installing it in a VM, I'm not sure. Why it isn't working, I'm even less sure.
23:18:00 <elliott> But, dammit, I can't let any problem go unresolved.
23:18:29 <Vorpal> elliott, I managed to install windows 7 pro in virtualbox. 64-bit.
23:18:43 <Vorpal> that was some time ago though
23:18:47 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm trying Ultimate (pirated of course) 64-bit ... and this worked just days/weeks ago.
23:18:53 <elliott> I'm thinkin' some VirtualBox update broke compatibility.
23:18:58 <elliott> But you'd think they'd test this stuff.
23:19:01 <elliott> (The old VM still /boots/>0
23:19:17 <Vorpal> elliott, also I think mine is RTM. Since I got it from MSDNAA before windows 7 was available in the stores.
23:19:21 <elliott> Hmm, still 3.2.8; I think that's what I had before. And this is stable Ubuntu so they wouldn't really update.
23:19:37 <elliott> Vorpal: I think I have the release candidate on some drive somewhere. :p
23:19:44 <elliott> (But the whole Internet got access to that.)
23:20:52 <elliott> Still the same error past the first bootup.
23:21:39 <elliott> "That error code is often due to the BIOS not being recognised as fully ACPI
23:21:39 <elliott> compatible. Do you have the latest BIOS update on the laptop?"
23:22:13 <elliott> "I think this problem may be associated with APIC (Advanced Programmable
23:22:13 <elliott> Interrupt Controller, not ACPI (Advanced Configuration and Power
23:22:25 <elliott> Apparently enabling APIC might help, but that's strange because I did not enable it in the other VM...
23:28:05 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:32:59 -!- augur has joined.
23:35:33 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:36:11 <elliott> { x = {valueOf: function () { fire_ze_missiles(); return 42; }}; y = 69; /* now var z=0; for(i=0;i<x;i++) z += y; and x*y both fire ze missiles, but a different number of times */ }
23:36:21 <elliott> (No but seriously, who's idea was valueOf?)
23:36:38 -!- wareya has joined.
23:37:16 <Gregor> OMG, things can have side effects NOOOO
23:37:27 <elliott> Gregor: I wouldn't mind e.g. + being overloadable...
23:37:38 <elliott> Gregor: But you can make an object that acts exactly like an integer except that mentioning it has side-effects.
23:37:54 <Gregor> s/mentioning it/using it in math/
23:38:52 <elliott> Gregor: Surely it triggers for == too?
23:39:04 <elliott> Gregor: Well that's just even more fux0red.
23:39:11 <Gregor> Errrrwait, for == not for ===
23:39:27 <elliott> And comparisons + arithmetic == pretty much all you can do with an integer :P
23:40:18 <Gregor> <Gregor> js> var x = {valueOf: function() { this.acc++; return 42; }, acc: 0}; var z = false; if (x == 42) z = true; [x.acc, z]
23:40:18 <Gregor> <gbot2> Gregor: [1,true]
23:40:25 <Gregor> Yup, it triggers for ==
23:40:31 <Gregor> So yeah, for math *shrugs*
23:41:31 <elliott> Gregor: What about array indexing. Ohwait, forgot you don't have arrays.
23:41:38 <elliott> lol @ your language is a language that is a toy language
23:41:56 <Gregor> ... uhh, yeah, JS has arrays, it just doesn't have a uniquely array indexing operator.
23:42:21 <Gregor> However, since the index has to be a primitive, I suspect that'd valueOf too.
23:42:40 <elliott> <Gregor> ... uhh, yeah, JS has arrays, it just doesn't have a uniquely array indexing operator.
23:42:44 <elliott> Nope, it has objects that pretend to be arrays. :p
23:42:59 <elliott> (By being half-array, half-monstrosity.)
23:43:16 <Gregor> ... yeaaaaaaaaaah, OK.
23:43:27 <Gregor> I care not for your trollery.
23:43:54 <elliott> Seriously though, JS is a terrible language.
23:44:04 <elliott> Almost as bad as Italian or your mom.
23:45:02 * Sgeo pours elliott a cup of Objective-J
23:55:42 <Ilari> Throw the DOM and various DOM incompatiblities on top and it is even worse. :-)
00:00:06 <elliott> Ilari: Now you'll get Gregor started.
00:00:15 <Gregor> I don't defend the DOM.
00:00:29 <elliott> Yep, but you do defend JS as being separate from the DOM :P
00:00:31 <Gregor> The DOM is a mess of incompatible garbage thrown in from a bunch of different places with incompatible APIs.
00:00:59 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
00:01:29 <Sgeo> Aren't things like jQuery supposed to paper over the DOM?
00:05:29 <quintopia> is there anyway to put collapsible spoilers into the wiki?
00:06:11 <quintopia> because ais's explanation of waterfall3 is almost as long as the program it describes.
00:06:25 <elliott> quintopia: yes, it's called a scrollbar
00:06:33 <elliott> his explanation is valuable, no need to compact it
00:06:52 <elliott> it needs more formatting though.
00:06:53 <quintopia> listen. i need a way to compact that wall of text
00:07:03 <elliott> it looks like it has them but the formatting is breaking them
00:07:20 <quintopia> that's like an entire article's worth of info :/
00:07:35 <quintopia> some articles are only a few paragraphs
00:07:53 <elliott> fixed the paragraph breaks. could do with a bit more, but that's ais' job
00:08:05 -!- TLUL has joined.
00:08:10 <elliott> it takes about 1s to scroll past it with a scroll wheel, dude :P
00:08:12 <quintopia> imagine if every program that goes on that page from now on has that much description :/
00:08:26 <elliott> quintopia: that will only apply if every program that gets added is that complex
00:08:32 <elliott> in which case, a long description is warranted
00:08:53 <elliott> if we get like five programs with longcat-is-long descriptions after another, we can make them all spoiler-type things if possible, or separate articles
00:08:58 <elliott> but for now I hardly think it matters :P
00:09:05 <elliott> ais isn't exactly known for his concision, though :)
00:09:20 <elliott> don't do that, i mentally pronounced feyn as feign
00:09:59 <elliott> lol, i clicked the trace link for waterfall3
00:10:11 <elliott> the animation is really slow though
00:10:16 <elliott> i guess the warning is useful then :P
00:10:22 <elliott> my browser hates me with that page open
00:10:29 <elliott> Gregor: THIS IS WHY YOU NEED TO MAKE THE TRACE SCROLLABLE
00:10:59 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:11:41 <quintopia> i would be down with moving the list of major programs to its own article. There's no doubt that that section is as long as the rest of the article and is only going to get longer.
00:11:54 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services).
00:13:10 <elliott> quintopia: btw so far your new page organisation has driven one person to ask in here what on earth the winning condition _is_ >:D. shouldn't mention that, i promised to rewrite it after all.
00:13:38 <quintopia> yes, yes you did. but you seem to be far too lazy.
00:14:12 <quintopia> (also, that person must have been stupid, considering how blatantly i spelled out the winning condition)
00:14:16 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
00:14:30 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:14:36 <elliott> quintopia: blatantly, but when you Emphasise Absolutely Everything, you emphasise nothing and it gets lost in noise
00:14:43 <elliott> also, it was http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:calamari
00:15:12 <elliott> oh, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Jeffry_Johnston is maybe a better link
00:17:53 <quintopia> well, i didn't know that anything in particular needed to be emphasized over anything else, so i just organized it the same way a manual for a board game would organize it, and emphasized nothing.
00:19:13 <elliott> quintopia: well, you "blatantly spelled" everything out :P
00:19:25 <elliott> did Gregor ever implement the fixed-point scoring?
00:20:08 <quintopia> the top scorer would no longer be in the 50-60% range
00:22:21 -!- wareya has quit (Quit: leaving).
00:22:42 -!- wareya has joined.
00:24:03 <quintopia> i don't know which code to edit or how to get eigenvectors in C
00:25:28 <elliott> quintopia: btw, I strongly disagree that it's most useful to consider the tape to have negative numbers
00:25:38 <elliott> I find that interpretation extremely unintuitive
00:26:54 <quintopia> so you think it should be a setting in egojsout to have the tape at the bottom and all the decoys above the line?
00:27:40 <elliott> quintopia: well, that's how *I* would have done it. but:
00:27:47 <elliott> I think it's OK for visualisation
00:27:53 <elliott> but I never think about the tape that way, and I don't think most people do either
00:28:10 <elliott> I don't see "negative" values in egojsout either, anyway, it's just an arbitrary division from my POV
00:28:11 -!- iconmaster_ has joined.
00:28:19 <elliott> but then, I don't really think the animations are *that* useful
00:28:31 <elliott> (I think the traces are visual enough while providing information useful to /fix/ your program)
00:28:47 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)).
00:28:52 <elliott> (but then that's from the perspective of a cheating little single-target author :P)
00:28:55 <quintopia> i just find it easier to think about it as "distance from zero" since settign something to zero is the goal
00:29:02 <iconmaster_> Hi guys. The craziest thing happened to me today.
00:29:15 <elliott> iconmaster_: You... gave birth?
00:29:53 <iconmaster_> I have an essay in English class. For fun, I passed the essay through a Markov text generator and printed it.
00:30:50 <iconmaster_> She looked at it for 10 minuotes, read it all, and told me it was a 'really great essay.'
00:31:22 <Sgeo> Maybe she's not a native English speaker...
00:31:45 <Sgeo> ^^techncailyly irrelevant
00:31:58 -!- rodgort has joined.
00:32:06 <iconmaster_> Its at my sxhool computer, ill pastebin it tomorrow
00:32:11 <elliott> <elliottcable> I’m going to sound like a dick for saying this, but I really wish I’d registered elliott when I had the chance. Then I could be even more of a dick now and just ghost him. <,<
00:34:52 <iconmaster_> An exerpt from the printed essay: Napoleon was sucsessful in Spain touched on these honorable or corrupt and made his brother Europe. He improved cheap food, drinks, establishing stop his life was promoted the Hôtel des Invalides.
00:35:12 <elliott> oerjan: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~megacz/coq-in-ghc/HelloWorld.pdf
00:35:24 <elliott> iconmaster_: That's basically the best two sentences ever written in the English language right there.
00:35:33 <elliott> Especially "sucsessful", though that one was probably your innovation :P
00:36:06 <elliott> oerjan: A proof that main = putStrLn "Hello, world!" (or similar) is well-typed, in natural deduction style.
00:36:11 <elliott> (http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~megacz/coq-in-ghc/)
00:37:50 <iconmaster_> Another one: After his departure tge Peninsular leader- Honor, Courage, and Honor, Courage and honorable leader- Honor, could be charmless.
00:38:17 <elliott> Ah yes, the famous tge Peninsular leader, whose motto was Honor, Courage, and Honor, Courage.
00:39:39 <elliott> iconmaster_: No no no, that was his honorable leader, Honor.
00:39:43 <elliott> Honor could be charmless, but usually chose not to.
00:40:40 <iconmaster_> @ the first quote: HAVE YOU TURNED A SIBLING INTO ANY CONTINITES LATELY?
00:42:23 <elliott> Quite interesting that we're all (well, OK, a good portion of this channel is) living in Napoleon's brother.
00:42:50 <elliott> I wonder if this channel is actually predominantly European... the idlers must throw off the stats a bit.
00:43:02 <elliott> But then three very-regulars are American, so maybe the idlers are the key to European purity.
00:44:54 <Sgeo> elliott, but beginning my fear is a very Siney thing to do!
00:46:57 <oerjan> quintopia: so what will you do if the eigenvector isn't unique *MWAHAHAHA*
00:47:32 <oerjan> (probably not very likely, but...)
00:47:34 <Sgeo> oerjan's been taking "Lose Your Marbles" too seriously
00:47:40 <Sgeo> [I loved that game once]
00:47:49 <oerjan> Sgeo: never heard of it
00:49:12 <quintopia> oerjan: that's not possible i think
00:49:56 -!- iconmaster_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:50:08 <oerjan> quintopia: if the warriors divide into two blocks that always draw against each other >:)
00:50:14 <quintopia> i know the transition function is aperiodic. pretty sure that it's also irreducible since every program plays every other program
00:50:40 <quintopia> does that make two non-communicating classes though?
00:51:01 <oerjan> it was my impression that it would
00:52:41 <quintopia> it can be modified slightly so that draws are a benefit to the underdog, and that would remove that possibility. however, i'm willing to gamble on the vanishingly small odds that that would happen.
00:54:24 <Sgeo> In case anyone cares, this is probably the fourth time Other has asked me "Who are you?"
00:58:17 * oerjan keeps thinking of The Other from Girl Genius
00:58:21 <quintopia> oerjan: actually, i think it already does that. if they draw, each program pays half 1/n of its score to the other. thus, if the two blocks always tie, they are still completely interconnected. so yeah, that wouldn't ever happen. the eigenvector is unique.
00:58:30 <oerjan> just be glad she doesn't squish you like the bug you are
00:59:13 <Sgeo> I am not an error!
00:59:26 <oerjan> quintopia: um i thought it said no points were exchanged in the case of a draw
01:00:45 <oerjan> also it doesn't actually help paying both ways if the actual matrix entry ends up 0
01:01:14 <quintopia> oerjan: ohhhh, you're saying that EVERY SINGLE ROUND of EVERY MATCH between the two classes is a draw
01:01:23 <oerjan> Sgeo: The Other would consider you one
01:01:24 <quintopia> i thought you just meant every match was a draw
01:01:36 <elliott> Other is a terrible name. I deem her to be TA-TK, That Alluded-To Kitty-kat.
01:01:36 <oerjan> quintopia: yeah every round. i didn't say this was likely :D
01:01:47 <elliott> KT-AT 2: Electric Boogaloo is also acceptable.
01:04:10 -!- zzo38 has joined.
01:04:58 <oerjan> quintopia: it would happen if a warrior is submitted twice, wouldn't it? still doesn't turn the entire matrix into two blocks, though
01:05:22 <quintopia> oerjan: wouldn't averaging together all the eigenvalues take care of it?
01:05:50 <oerjan> quintopia: yeah but which average do you take
01:06:33 <oerjan> Sgeo: quintopia's matrix-based BF Joust scoring system
01:06:45 <quintopia> oerjan: the scores don't have to make sense man! as long as the final leaderboard shows the top warrior of each class as outranking all the other warriors in the same class, i call it a success
01:07:07 <quintopia> (and so on down the line, of course)
01:07:41 <quintopia> a straight mean of the 1-valued eigenvectors would get you that
01:08:39 <quintopia> (which is to say, the mean of the basis of the 1-valued eigenspace)
01:10:22 <elliott> Design overview of the Tunes Migration Subproject: "Modules are migrated according to heuristics. These heuristics are computed according to static and dynamic feedback."
01:11:10 <Sgeo> I thought Tunes was dead?
01:11:38 <oerjan> just very, very static
01:12:31 <quintopia> oerjan: it took you way too long to notice i didn't sign the scoring post btw. i realized i didn't sign it like 30 minutes after i posted it, but it took you half a month :P
01:12:46 <oerjan> quintopia: perhaps you could weight each eigenvector according to its number of non-0 coordinates
01:12:53 * oerjan swats quintopia -----###
01:13:18 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
01:15:10 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
01:15:33 <quintopia> oerjan: so that the champion of the larger class gets more credit? what if the largest class is one mediocre program and a bunch of shitty programs designed to lose to it but draw with every other program?
01:15:56 <quintopia> what if all the programs are shitty?
01:16:03 <quintopia> what if all the programs are shudder?
01:16:10 <oerjan> quintopia: it's just that i think that is closest to your description of "assign equal points to all warriors, then iterate"
01:16:53 <oerjan> it fails if there's a warrior that always loses, though, since its coordinate would get 0 always
01:17:39 <quintopia> where both classes have only 1 good program
01:17:48 <quintopia> they both have exactly 1 non-0 coordinate
01:18:32 <oerjan> however you could say that if a warrior always loses, you should simply throw it out completely
01:19:01 <quintopia> that is what we do anyway, isn't? that's how suiciding-as-deleting is made to work
01:19:03 <oerjan> and then that weighting gives the result, i think
01:19:08 <elliott> the tunes critique of Scheme is fun
01:19:29 <elliott> <oerjan> however you could say that if a warrior always loses, you should simply throw it out completely
01:19:29 <elliott> <quintopia> that is what we do anyway, isn't? that's how suiciding-as-deleting is made to work
01:19:34 <elliott> it only happens on the _next_ submit
01:19:40 <elliott> because whenever a program is added, the bottom one is thrown off
01:19:45 <elliott> and < always goes to the bottom
01:20:19 <quintopia> elliott: then how do we get less than the maximum number of programs on the hill? i think all suiciders get deleted after their score is posted
01:20:34 <elliott> quintopia: we don't, usually
01:20:43 <elliott> quintopia: check report.txt in some seconds:
01:20:52 <elliott> !bfjoust WHOAAAAAA_IM_STILL_ALIVE_YEAAAAAH <
01:21:01 <oerjan> quintopia: maybe if there's a tie for the bottom?
01:21:18 <quintopia> same difference for what we're considering though
01:21:29 <oerjan> yeah throwing out all 0 would be that too
01:21:51 <Gregor> The hill always adds new warriors, then reports the result, THEN throws away any low ranking adversaries.
01:22:00 <quintopia> and when you write the leaderboard, you put all the zeroes at the bottom in whatever order.
01:22:49 <oerjan> elliott: accountability?
01:23:04 <oerjan> you'll have immediate losers at least registered that way
01:23:42 <Gregor> So the report will have "more" than the limit whenever new ones are added.
01:23:42 <Gregor> (It's not really more, since I already kicked them off, they're just putzing around 'til somebody touches it again :P )
01:23:57 <Gregor> elliott: So that you can always at least be shown on the report :P
01:24:05 <Gregor> Otherwise it may seem like nothing even happened if you add a shitty competitor.
01:24:23 <elliott> Gregor: It'll make sense once you get the absolutely-fucking-terrible result back :P
01:24:30 <elliott> Also, "any low ranking adversaries" -- what definition of low ranking?
01:24:55 <quintopia> Gregor: do you know which is the most standard library for doing diagonalization in C?
01:25:13 <Gregor> elliott: Beyond the hill size limit.
01:25:16 <elliott> quintopia: http://cantor.org/
01:25:34 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_WHOAAAAAA_IM_STILL_ALIVE_YEAAAAAH: 0.0
01:26:21 <elliott> quintopia: http://libgeorg.cantor.org/
01:26:27 <elliott> libgeorg, from the cantor project
01:26:34 <elliott> great for diagonalization.
01:26:50 <elliott> quintopia: WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
01:26:55 <elliott> gale force fuckin' WIND of whoosh
01:27:59 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
01:28:35 <elliott> LAPACK is the "industry standard" thing.
01:28:44 <elliott> but Gregor was very adamant about not using LAPACK in a fuckin' bf joust scoring system.
01:28:46 <Sgeo> Yesterday, my statistics professor was trying to get us to understand how there's an infinite amount of numbers between two numbers
01:28:49 <elliott> It'll certainly be fast :-P
01:29:36 <Sgeo> And he did the whole "Divide into two unequal pieces thing, etc. etc.". I mean, sure, that's good enough for teaching, and it is adequate, but.. I guess it bothers me that it doesn't illustrate everything. I think
01:29:46 <Sgeo> No, I did not complain
01:29:53 <Sgeo> There's nothing to complain about
01:30:03 <Sgeo> I think I'll just shut up now.
01:30:50 <quintopia> i feel like every high schooler should be given a completely sequence of Hilbert's Grand Hotel problems in calculus.
01:31:06 <quintopia> up to the point of showing 2^N is uncountable
01:39:01 <zzo38> I want to see what is differences in different processors which best way of machine codes to reverse a C string in-place?
01:40:45 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
01:41:58 -!- pingveno has joined.
01:43:04 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:43:36 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
01:48:13 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:48:16 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
01:50:21 <invariable> quintopia: don't kill their chances of *enjoying* that type of math by teaching it in high school
01:50:51 <elliott> Perhaps quintopia would change the rest of high school too :-P
01:51:07 <coppro> easy solution: reduce the halting problem to it
01:51:39 <invariable> elliott: I would eliminate high school; move university earlier; and start having students doing research from yr 1
01:52:03 <quintopia> i would do high math like lockhart
01:52:03 <elliott> invariable: Year 1 as in, first year of any school at all?
01:52:17 <elliott> invariable: I think you'll find that a good portion of students would not be interested in doing research ...
01:52:23 <quintopia> already i'm making it more fun...the infinite hotel is fun!
01:52:28 <invariable> elliott: erm - I was thinking yr 1 of new university; also it wouldn't be _required_
01:52:42 <Sgeo> "We tried to put a Mardi Gras mask on and ended up with a Mardi Gras subnet mask. Only residents on Bourbon St. can connect now."
01:52:45 <elliott> invariable: Lame! Year 1 of schooling! :p
01:52:48 <elliott> Really, a *good* reform of the schooling system would require the full cooperation extremely well-educated, rational-minded parents.
01:52:57 <elliott> And those are in extremely short supply.
01:53:17 <invariable> elliott: then again my dream world students would not be anti-learning because they wouldn't have been through was passes for education
01:53:57 <elliott> I firmly believe that children could be advancing at a much, much faster rate than they do now, but it would require exceptional parenting.
01:54:13 <invariable> I think most of calculation should not be taught
01:54:22 <elliott> (A large part of our current schooling system's brokenness is that we try and teach things that require logical thought, like mathematics, without even touching on the subject of logical thought itself.)
01:54:22 <invariable> and programming should be taught instead
01:54:49 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:54:58 <elliott> Of course having explicit "logic lessons" isn't going to work, so you have to figure out how to teach logical thought itself from scratch -- and that's not easy.
01:55:33 <invariable> elliott: it is not easy - but not hard. Encourage *questions* and work with students on developing those questions
01:55:34 <elliott> ...aaand this may provide a good clue why the more intelligent tend not to particularly want kids: gotta do it right!
01:55:47 <invariable> also remember that younger kids tend to think concretely
01:55:50 <elliott> invariable: Good luck explaining a fallacy to a kid, though.
01:56:18 <elliott> Once you teach them one, the rest are probably much easier.
01:56:41 <elliott> The failure to do so leads to mass pandemics like religion ;)
01:57:25 <invariable> elliott: I can't find it now - but I read an article about a third grade class publishing a research paper
01:57:37 <Zwaarddijk> there's few people as annoying as atheists that are irrational
01:57:42 <Zwaarddijk> because they have no excuse for being irrational
01:57:51 <Zwaarddijk> I grasp why religious people fail at understanding it
01:57:56 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: see richard dawkins forum >:)
01:58:16 <elliott> I'm quite happily unaware.
01:58:26 <Zwaarddijk> where the majority of people from the rd forum went
01:58:30 <elliott> It's quite a shame because Richard Dawkins himself is a fine guy.
01:58:32 <invariable> elliott: yeah - there was a massive fallout with the moderators
01:58:47 <Zwaarddijk> where rationality only is tolerated some days
01:59:02 <Zwaarddijk> in fact, any claim that makes a religion look bad is automatically true
01:59:19 <Zwaarddijk> so if I claim that Moses raped Mickey Mouse in front of his daughter
01:59:30 <Zwaarddijk> that claim would probably be held to be true by a majority there
01:59:49 <elliott> Everyone knows the Bible is infallible.
02:00:51 <elliott> This channel has such a high rate of mentions of "Hitler".
02:01:01 <elliott> * Topic for ##unavailable is: You've tried to join an unavailable channel. Perhaps the group was never here or has moved off-network ( http://freenode.net/policy.shtml#termination ). Check their website for more information. Your client may be flapping in and out of channel; in this case, check with channel staff. The channel may be clone-infested; please consult freenode network staff.
02:01:04 <elliott> #hitler: BANNED ON FREENODE
02:01:43 <zzo38> I can create Hitler channel in my own server if you request it and have good reason for it.
02:01:51 <zzo38> But you should specify good reason at first.
02:01:57 <elliott> zzo38: For discussion of Hitler.
02:02:31 <zzo38> OK, just wait a few minutes while I configure it
02:02:54 <zzo38> (If I do configure it, that is...)
02:06:33 <zzo38> Hopefully I did configure it and I am not just lying.
02:06:40 <zzo38> O no, now it is bad because Hitler used it.
02:07:21 <Sgeo> It's kind of sick to say this, but I'm.. morbidly amused by " She was buried, at her request, next to her father at the Church of St. Mary Magdalene in Hucknall, Nottingham."
02:07:50 -!- pikhq has joined.
02:07:55 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
02:08:23 <zzo38> The #hitler channel in Freenode you cannot join, you must be invited. And you cannot be invited either even if you KNOCK. Because, they configured that channel to be broken and unusable that's why.
02:08:31 <Gregor> HitlOS would be a good name for an OS.
02:08:51 <oerjan> the final solution to all your OS problems
02:09:13 <zzo38> Gregor: OK. Find someone whose name is Hitler and then write "this operating system is bad because Hitler used it" and then write that such logic is wrong logic and that such thing does not make it bad.
02:09:19 <elliott> just to make sure even fewer people use that
02:09:38 <elliott> invariable: see, this is what we need to be teaching our children!111
02:09:41 <elliott> I demand Hitler be used as the example
02:09:49 <Zwaarddijk> a Swedish newspaper in the early 40s found a guy with the family name Hitler, and another with the name Stalin, and had them meet up
02:10:06 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: and then they got married and adopted kids
02:10:12 <elliott> This is my brother, Hitler Stalin.
02:10:37 <Sgeo> Hitler supposedly liked dogs
02:11:13 <Zwaarddijk> but .. the fact that they were union members, makes you think, doesn't it?
02:11:18 <elliott> STALIN MEETS HITLER FOR A CHAT
02:11:40 <zzo38> I read that someone their children was named "Hitler" so they wanted to order a cake but the cake service refused to write "Hitler" on it, so they should write it themself at home, instead
02:11:49 <Gregor> Surely by now any living people with the name Hitler have it because they're white supremacists, and not because it's a long-lasting family name.
02:11:57 <elliott> Naming your child Hitler. What a brilliant idea!
02:12:02 <elliott> If it was their first name, that is.
02:12:16 <elliott> To be honest, I think the family name Hitler is pretty much fucked at this point :P
02:12:21 <Gregor> elliott: The child's name was actually something like Adolf Hitler <last name>
02:12:34 <invariable> zzo38: erm no; #hitler -> ##unavailable
02:12:36 <Sgeo> Campbell? Cambell?
02:12:37 <zzo38> O, so Hitler was their middle name.
02:12:38 <elliott> What's a stereotypically Jewish surname Gregor
02:12:41 <elliott> invariable: BROKEN AND UNUSABLE
02:12:52 <Gregor> elliott: Anything ending in "stein"
02:13:02 <elliott> Was the kid named Adolf Hitler Goldstein
02:13:09 <zzo38> invariable: It results in "you must be invited" if you have usermode +Q
02:13:10 <elliott> Because that's the best name ever?
02:13:30 <Sgeo> I was right, it was Campbell
02:13:39 <Sgeo> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/05/adolf-hitler-campbells-pa_n_672045.html
02:13:46 <zzo38> invariable: It does that too.
02:13:56 <invariable> zzo38: what does +Q do? googling is not helpful
02:14:48 <Sgeo> zzo38 is mortally offended by Google.
02:14:52 <elliott> * umode : +Q - Prevents you from being affected by channel forwarding.
02:14:55 <elliott> invariable: /raw help umode
02:14:59 <elliott> invariable: prepare for zzo38 rant on how your client is broken
02:15:02 <zzo38> It is not forbidden, but you should not use it all the time, especially in this case.
02:15:14 <elliott> invariable: no, it just provides its own help command
02:15:17 <elliott> that is probably more useful than freenode's
02:15:25 <Sgeo> I feel like I'm kaing fun of zzo38 when I shouldn't
02:15:57 <invariable> elliott: it should forward other commands it doesn't know about to the server...
02:16:04 -!- augur has joined.
02:16:27 <elliott> invariable: it knows about /help, though
02:16:38 <elliott> so it tells you there's no help to give
02:16:40 <zzo38> It is not a client command it is a command to send to server, please.
02:17:03 <zzo38> Therefore you have to specify it as such.
02:19:21 <zzo38> elliott: Of course there is no UMODE command but it is a help topic on the server, so there is help to give.
02:19:59 <Sgeo> zzo38, elliott was explaining to invariable
02:20:25 <zzo38> Sgeo: I know, but still, there actually is such a help topic.
02:22:01 <Gregor> You have 3 .so Landrush Application(s). If you are the only applicant for a domain at the end of the Landrush period (1st March 2011) then you will be awarded the domain.
02:22:10 <zzo38> I made a game that says "This game is bad because Hitler played it"
02:23:27 <elliott> Gregor: Can I have an email redirect @libc.so, that would be possibly the most amazing thing ever :-P
02:23:44 <Gregor> elliott: I will give out redirects, but only of valid libc functions.
02:23:53 <Gregor> I reserve a few memory-related ones for myself.
02:23:55 <elliott> I want to be known as gets@libc.so forever.
02:24:01 <Gregor> elliott: Uhhh, if you want gets ...
02:24:11 <elliott> Gregor: I'm just trying to capitalise on all the famous ones :P
02:24:22 <elliott> Gregor: posix_fadvise@libc.so
02:24:35 <Gregor> This all depends on whether I actually get it though :P
02:24:36 <elliott> I am making good decisions today
02:24:52 <zzo38> elliott: Are you sure?
02:25:04 <elliott> Gregor: libc.a would be better... quick, let's find a country whose name starts with A that has no TLD.
02:25:14 <elliott> And give them a fibre-optic link.
02:25:24 <elliott> Preferably a country just called "A", so that you can't have a second letter in the TLD.
02:25:28 <Gregor> All country codes are two characters :P
02:25:29 <elliott> Let's ask Sealand to rename themselves.
02:25:33 <Gregor> They would probably make that .aa
02:25:41 <elliott> This standard defines for most of the countries and dependent areas in the world:
02:25:41 <elliott> a two letter (ISO 3166-1 alpha-2)
02:25:41 <elliott> a three-letter (ISO 3166-1 alpha-3), and
02:25:41 <elliott> a three-digit numeric (ISO 3166-1 numeric) code.
02:25:56 <elliott> (OK, so the relevant ones are two-letter.)
02:26:06 * Sgeo ponders neural nets for cartoon character recognition
02:26:18 <elliott> User-assigned code elements are codes at the disposal of users who need to add further names of countries, territories, or other geographical entities to their in-house application of ISO 3166-1, and the ISO 3166/MA will never use these codes in the updating process of the standard. The following alpha-2 codes can be user-assigned: AA, QM to QZ, XA to XZ, and ZZ. For example:
02:27:44 <elliott> Gregor: Register sudo.su :P
02:28:08 <Gregor> elliott: Even if it wasn't taken, .su domains are CRAZY-expensive.
02:28:17 <Gregor> Since they're "trying" to phase them out.
02:28:18 <elliott> Really? I've seen individuals with them before.
02:28:22 <elliott> But I guess that was an old registration.
02:28:41 <elliott> Gregor: But yah, it will never be phased out ever :P
02:28:50 <zzo38> In Soviet Russia, domain name register YOU!! That is why you cannot register them easily
02:29:00 <elliott> Gregor: Nope it will be phased out, or nope, I agree, it will never be phased out ever?
02:29:14 <elliott> zzo38: Congratulations, you're as funny as Yakov Smirnoff.
02:29:31 <Gregor> elliott: I agree, it will never be phased out.
02:29:57 <elliott> Gregor: One day, the most well-known legacy of the Soviet Union will be its TLD, which will still be around in post-Singularity 3142 AD.
02:30:08 <elliott> And we *still* won't have migrated off IPv6 yet, grumble, sigh.
02:30:25 <elliott> (Turns out that incredibly-advanced alien cultures have a SHITLOAD of sentient beings who want personal websites.)
02:30:29 <Gregor> Off? We won't have migrated TO IPv6 yet :P
02:31:03 <elliott> Gregor: The Singularity did that for us.
02:31:10 <elliott> After resigning us all to Five Minutes Self-Hatred for not having done it yet.
02:32:46 <zzo38> Is there any kind of 'patamagic that you like? Is there any kind of metamagic that you like?
02:33:54 <Sgeo> I like terminating zzo38 because he's an INFRARED and is wearing white clothes...
02:34:26 <zzo38> I am not wearing white clothes right now.
02:34:37 <zzo38> But at least some of it is almost white.
02:34:55 <Sgeo> How dare you question Friend Computer?!
02:35:34 <oerjan> what color clothes _are_ infrareds allowed to wear, anyhow
02:35:58 <Sgeo> Black, I'd assume.
02:36:18 <Sgeo> INFRARED stuff is black, ULTRAVIOLET is white
02:36:31 <zzo38> Actually I have blue clothes at this time, and white socks.
02:40:28 <invariable> Gregor: how do you apply for a .so domain?
02:40:46 <Gregor> invariable: Carefully.
02:41:09 <zzo38> What country is that?
02:41:15 * invariable wants a vanity domain name - but all the good ones are taken
02:42:16 <Sgeo> Gregor, did you get yours?
02:42:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
02:42:18 <zzo38> invariable: Which vanity domain names did you want?
02:42:32 <Gregor> Sgeo: If I knew, I wouldn't have had that message to paste :P
02:42:51 <invariable> zzo38: I wanted 0xdeadbeef.com, cryp.to, a few others
02:43:14 <invariable> Gregor: where does one apply for the domains?
02:43:57 <Gregor> invariable: Presently you can't buy .so domains, as the landrush period has ended but general availability hasn't started yet. General availability is April 1st.
02:44:09 <Gregor> invariable: nic.so has a list of registrars
02:44:29 <invariable> If you would like to sell .so domains, please feel free to contact us below. ---> interesting
02:44:51 <Gregor> invariable doesn't know much about the domain name system, does 'e :P
02:45:22 <invariable> Gregor: considering I follow dns-operations and nanog I'd say I'd know some things - I don't follow the politics of it though
02:45:46 <Sgeo> Is it interestling like "She requested to be buried in XYZ" interesting?
02:45:54 <Sgeo> As in, it seems weird if you don't think about it
02:45:59 <invariable> Gregor: curious what data you think I do not know. I'm always open to learning new things
02:46:19 <Sgeo> Or did invariable actually not think about it, and think it makes no sense?
02:46:20 <Gregor> invariable: Well, it's just that "If you would like to sell .so domains, please feel free to contact us below." is not interesting at all, as that's how almost every TLD works :P
02:46:29 <Gregor> They always delegate to general registrars.
02:46:41 <Sgeo> Hah! I was right!
02:46:47 <invariable> Gregor: my interesting was "oh - maybe I'll sign up"
02:46:56 <Gregor> invariable: Sign up ... to be a registrar?
02:47:01 <Sgeo> Isn't being a registrar.. expensive?
02:47:11 <invariable> Sgeo: to contact them doesn't cost monies
02:47:23 <invariable> I want to see how much they charge and what proccess they go thru
02:47:33 <Gregor> Why do you want to be a registrar?
02:48:09 <invariable> <invariable> I want to see how much they charge and what proccess they go thru
02:48:11 <Sgeo> He wants to know what it takes to be a registrar
02:48:16 <Gregor> OK, well I'm sufficiently boggled :P
02:48:19 <Gregor> Anyway I just want libc.so
02:48:24 <Gregor> I'm probably not getting it, but I WANT IT
02:48:32 <invariable> Gregor: darn it. I'd love that domain too
02:48:36 <Sgeo> What do you mean, "probably not getting it"?
02:48:51 <Gregor> Sgeo: Landrush = any number of people can register, if more than one do then they auction it.
02:49:01 <Gregor> I registered during landrush, but don't yet know if anybody else did.
02:49:05 <Gregor> invariable: I registered libm too :P
02:49:08 <Sgeo> Also, shouldn't you find a country with country code 6?
02:49:43 <Gregor> invariable: I couldn't tell people :P
02:49:49 <Gregor> invariable: I didn't want any competition!
02:49:56 <invariable> Gregor: as I said - all the good vanity domain names are taken
02:50:15 <Sgeo> Is it libc.so.6? Or something else?
02:50:17 <Gregor> I've been wanting libc.so for YEARS, I actually had a cron job to check nic.so every week :P
02:50:52 <elliott> Gregor: You are one dedicated motherfucka.
02:50:55 <Sgeo> Did nic.so exist in any form back then?
02:50:58 <elliott> <Gregor> I'm probably not getting it, but I WANT IT
02:51:02 <elliott> Is only some small subset being granted?
02:51:03 <oerjan> gregor, the strangest person to root for somalian government
02:51:03 <Sgeo> Or were you guessing
02:51:07 <invariable> elliott: <Gregor> Sgeo: Landrush = any number of people can register, if more than one do then they auction it.
02:51:07 <elliott> Or do you think someone else is as genius as you?
02:51:17 <Gregor> elliott: That's my fear :P
02:51:20 <elliott> Most people aren't as brilliant as Gregor.
02:51:23 <elliott> This is not because Gregor is brilliant.
02:51:27 <elliott> This is just because most people are stupid.
02:51:35 <Gregor> There only needs to be one more on Earth :P
02:51:59 <Gregor> codu.org is a good domain name :P
02:52:03 <elliott> Gregor: Yeah, but it's also someone as brilliant as you, *and dedicated enough to spend bucks on it*.
02:52:09 <elliott> Unless the starting bid is ridiculous.
02:52:55 <Gregor> Anyway, Somalia is still lettin' me down here :P
02:53:01 <Gregor> I should know whether I got it any week ago.
02:53:18 <Sgeo> Gregor, imagine if you typoed your email address...
02:53:26 <elliott> Gregor: Oblig. http://www.weebls-stuff.com/songs/Somalia/
02:53:51 <elliott> Gregor: "Oblig." for a reason.
02:54:25 <Sgeo> agooddomainname.com
02:54:31 <elliott> I would have registered ehird.org by now, but elliott@ehird.org is ugly.
02:55:15 <invariable> Sgeo: taken http://www.einsteinindustries.com/
02:55:17 <Gregor> invariable: I could give you a vanity email address @libc.so :P
02:55:28 <elliott> Gregor: But only if it's a libc function.
02:55:33 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
02:55:38 <Gregor> Well, not necessarily function, but symbol
02:55:39 -!- wareya has joined.
02:55:39 <elliott> invariable seems like a memset guy to me.
02:55:52 <elliott> Gregor: What about a libc macro?
02:55:52 <Gregor> I'll give you errno if you want it.
02:55:56 <elliott> That's not technically in the .so.
02:56:03 <Gregor> elliott: I said stderr is OK :P
02:56:06 <elliott> invariable: I WILL BATTLE YOU TO THE DEATH
02:56:12 <elliott> invariable: You can have it :P
02:56:19 <elliott> Gregor reserved "some memory allocation functions".
02:56:22 <elliott> I'm guessing this includes malloc.
02:56:26 <Gregor> I've reserved malloc, free, realloc, brk and sbrk for me.
02:56:31 <elliott> But what if I changed my gender and name to Mary Alloc?
02:56:37 <elliott> Gregor: Would you say you have...
02:56:40 <Sgeo> I want calloc@libc.so
02:56:44 <elliott> YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
02:56:54 * Gregor punches elliott in the face.
02:56:58 <Sgeo> [It's just I noticed you didn't mention it]
02:57:11 <elliott> Gregor: Can I have common Unix syscalls
02:57:13 <Sgeo> What're brk and sbrk?
02:57:16 <elliott> sbrk isn't actually in libc.
02:57:22 <invariable> Gregor: could I have puts@ and gets@ ?
02:57:33 <elliott> invariable: ALREADY RESERVED GETS
02:57:39 <Gregor> invariable: elliott asked for gets, I don't understand why that's such a popular choice :P
02:57:46 <Gregor> gets: Shittiest function ever.
02:57:48 <elliott> Because it's terrible and being removed in C1x :P
02:58:04 <elliott> (It's technically in libm though :P)
02:58:09 <elliott> (But I don't think libm is POSIX.)
02:58:17 <Gregor> If I get libm.so, you can have that @libm.so :P
02:58:28 <elliott> j0@libm.so would be good for someone called Jo or Joe.
02:58:46 <Gregor> jn@libm.so would be good for Jane!
02:58:54 <elliott> Gregor: ULLONG_MAX@libc.so plz
02:59:05 <elliott> Gregor: Can we have things that are going to be in C1x?
02:59:15 <Sgeo> #include@libc.so
02:59:20 <elliott> That's like twenty you've reserved now :P
02:59:20 <Gregor> elliott: Ultimately it just comes down to whether I think it's lolly enough :P
02:59:27 <elliott> write@libc.so actually has quite a nice ring to it...
02:59:37 <Gregor> Nobody's reserved anything, and I'll give one person EXACTLY ONE.
02:59:59 <elliott> Gregor: fegetexceptflag@ plz
03:00:08 <elliott> I'm just going through Wikipedia's list at this point :P
03:00:29 <Gregor> "What's your email address?" "Faggot except flag at libc dot so."
03:00:55 <invariable> why does everyone else get all the good domains :-(
03:00:59 <elliott> Gregor: creal@libc.so, for my rapper friend C. Real
03:01:09 <Gregor> invariable: So far I don't have ti :P
03:01:37 <elliott> Gregor: Also _IOLBF@libc.so
03:01:40 <invariable> Gregor: but also things like cryp.to, 0xdeadbeed, blah blah blah -> every domain I think of someone has taken
03:01:40 <Sgeo> oh, right, C doesn't even cast like that
03:01:45 <Gregor> Sgeo: None of your @s are libc symbols X_X
03:01:53 <Sgeo> Gregor, I know
03:01:59 <Sgeo> Wait, none? I thought I had one earlier?
03:02:14 <Sgeo> calloc isn't a libc thing?
03:02:22 <elliott> Gregor: xor_eq@libc.so. Thanks.
03:02:28 <elliott> (It's a macro that expands to ^=. Seriously.)
03:02:28 <Gregor> sin@libm.so is gonna be hotly debated :P
03:02:36 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iso646.h
03:02:56 <elliott> What's your email address?
03:03:18 <Sgeo> reinterpret_cast@libc.so
03:03:19 <invariable> why do I get the feeling that elliott loves abbot and Costello
03:03:29 <elliott> Gregor: LDBL_MIN_10_EXP@libc.so
03:04:03 <Sgeo> Gregor, I want reinterpret_cast@libc.so
03:04:09 * Sgeo ducks into a postincrement
03:04:14 <elliott> Gregor: __bool_true_false_are_defined@libc.so
03:04:15 -!- invariable has changed nick to variable.
03:04:36 <Sgeo> Gregor, you know I'm doing this deliberately, right?
03:04:39 <elliott> Whatever game we're playing, I just won it.
03:05:10 <elliott> qsort might be a good one.
03:05:19 <Sgeo> I even went outside C. How much more blatant can I get/
03:05:54 <Sgeo> unsafePerformIO@libc.so
03:06:22 <Sgeo> Gregor, are you going to call that fail?
03:06:37 <elliott> Gregor: zPLR@libc.so. Hey, it's in my strings(1) output.
03:06:40 <oerjan> of course not, fail is properly monadic
03:06:44 <elliott> __gconv_transform_ucs4le_internal
03:06:48 <elliott> __gconv_transform_ucs4le_internal@libc.so
03:07:09 <Sgeo> What symbols are only in glibc?
03:07:15 <elliott> ((((__const uint32_t *) (sin6->sin6_addr.__in6_u.__u6_addr32))[0] == 0) && (((__const uint32_t *) (sin6->sin6_addr.__in6_u.__u6_addr32))[1] == 0) && (((__const uint32_t *) (sin6->sin6_addr.__in6_u.__u6_addr32))[2] == (__extension__ ({ register unsigned int __v, __x = (0xffff); if (__builtin_constant_p (__x)) __v = ((((__x) & 0xff000000) >> 24) | (((__x) & 0x00ff0000) >> 8) | (((__x) & 0x0000ff00) << 8)
03:07:15 <elliott> | (((__x) & 0x000000ff) << 24)); else __asm__ ("bswap %0" : "=r" (__v) : "0" (__x)); __v; }))))@libc.so?
03:07:18 <elliott> (Also in my strings output.)
03:07:18 <Sgeo> As opposed to regular libc?
03:07:29 -!- MrMandelbrot has joined.
03:07:37 <elliott> __extension__ ({ size_t __s1_len, __s2_len; (__builtin_constant_p (&zone_names[info->idx]) && __builtin_constant_p (__tzname[tp->tm_isdst]) && (__s1_len = __builtin_strlen (&zone_names[info->idx]), __s2_len = __builtin_strlen (__tzname[tp->tm_isdst]), (!((size_t)(const void *)((&zone_names[info->idx]) + 1) - (size_t)(const void *)(&zone_names[info->idx]) == 1) || __s1_len >= 4) && (!((size_t)(const voi
03:07:37 <elliott> d *)((__tzname[tp->tm_isdst]) + 1) - (size_t)(const void *)(__tzname[tp->tm_isdst]) == 1) || __s2_len >= 4)) ? __builtin_strcmp (&zone_names[info->idx], __tzname[tp->tm_isdst]) : (__builtin_constant_p (&zone_names[info->idx]) && ((size_t)(const void *)((&zone_names[info->idx]) + 1) - (size_t)(const void *)(&zone_names[info->idx]) == 1) && (__s1_len = __builtin_strlen (&zone_names[info->idx]), __s1_len
03:07:38 <elliott> < 4) ? (__builtin_constant_p (__tzname[tp->tm_isdst]) && ((size_t)(const void *)((__tzname[tp->tm_isdst]) + 1) - (size_t)(const void *)(__tzname[tp->tm_isdst]) == 1) ? __builtin_strcmp (&zone_names[info->idx], __tzname[tp->tm_isdst]) : (__extension__ ({ __const unsigned char *__s2 = (__const unsigned char *) (__const char *) (__tzname[tp->tm_isdst]); register int __result = (((__const unsigned char *)
03:07:42 <elliott> (__const char *) (&zone_names[info->idx]))[0] - __s2[0]); if (__s1_len > 0 && __result == 0) { __result = (((__const unsigned char *) (__const char *) (&zone_names[info->idx]))[1] - __s2[1]); if (__s1_len > 1 && __result == 0) { __result = (((__const unsigned char *) (__const char *) (&zone_names[info->idx]))[2] - __s2[2]); if (__s1_len > 2 && __result == 0) __result = (((__const unsigned char *) (__co
03:07:47 <elliott> nst char *) (&zone_names[info->idx]))[3] - __s2[3]); } } __result; }))) : (__builtin_constant_p (__tzname[tp->tm_isdst]) && ((size_t)(const void *)((__tzname[tp->tm_isdst]) + 1) - (size_t)(const void *)(__tzname[tp->tm_isdst]) == 1) && (__s2_len = __builtin_strlen (__tzname[tp->tm_isdst]), __s2_len < 4) ? (__builtin_constant_p (&zone_names[info->idx]) && ((size_t)(const void *)((&zone_names[info->idx])
03:07:56 <elliott> And at that, my IRC client decided I couldn't enter more.
03:07:59 <elliott> But it's longer than that.
03:08:25 <zzo38> What does __extension__ means?
03:09:07 <elliott> Lets you use GNU statement expressions in ANSI-strict code.
03:09:12 <Sgeo> elliott, that may be close to being a legal email address
03:10:07 <elliott> It's the IO interface to Elliott.
03:10:28 <elliott> Best thing Gregor? Best thing?
03:11:24 <oerjan> ET, the Elliott transformer
03:13:34 -!- MrMandelbrot has left (?).
03:14:15 <elliott> olsner: so what's the longer-term plan for your OS?
03:14:21 <elliott> I mean, once it can actually do tasks
03:18:36 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
03:25:01 <elliott> maybe I will have another stab at implementing my OS
03:27:51 <elliott> "I'm not at all an expert in either linux nor the Mac OS 10.6 flavour of it."
03:28:09 <elliott> quintopia: someone clearly thinks that os x is based on linux
03:28:12 <elliott> because, you know, it's unix!
03:28:18 <oerjan> elliott: I'M GONNA TRUST HIS JUDGEMENT ON THAT
03:28:40 <pikhq> ... OS X isn't even very GNUy.
03:28:50 <quintopia> elliott: the question is where did you find a person who believes this
03:29:03 <elliott> pikhq: nope, in fact OS X is closer to real Unix than a lot of operating systems; certified after all (but that is meaninglses)
03:29:23 <pikhq> elliott: Somewhat more importantly, OS X is genetic Unix.
03:29:28 <elliott> pikhq: although it's horribly broken in several respects, of course, and the User Operating System layered on top of it -- the graphical interface and applications -- is almost completely unrelated to Unix
03:29:46 <elliott> making OS X about as tempting a Unix environment as Windows + coLinux or similar
03:30:33 <Gregor> Honey is REALLY tricky.
03:30:40 <Gregor> It's so freaking acidic.
03:30:45 <Gregor> And nowhere near as sweet as it should be.
03:30:54 <Gregor> elliott: Just as a sweetener/acidifier, not primary flavorant.
03:30:58 <elliott> Also, are we talking like...
03:31:03 <elliott> Honey is nowhere near as sweet as it should be, what.
03:31:08 <elliott> Honey is, like, one of the sweetest things.
03:31:20 <elliott> Gregor: P.S. Do maple syrup next. I am in a committed relationship with maple syrup.
03:31:21 <Gregor> It's not as sweet as sugar, it's not even as sweet as corn syrup.
03:31:25 <elliott> It is the best thing and goes with everything.
03:31:29 <elliott> And IS sweeter than anything :P
03:31:38 <elliott> Though I guess it's not terribly acidic, but who cares, maple syrup.
03:31:40 <Gregor> Yes, maple syrup is definitely crazysweet.
03:31:54 <Gregor> It doesn't have to be acidic, I can always use citric acid *shrugs*
03:32:08 <Gregor> I have maple extract :P
03:32:16 <Gregor> But I failed HARD at making maple soda by using maple extract.
03:32:32 <elliott> My experience with maple syrup is that, whenever you feel like using sugar, just use maple syrup instead and it'll be so amazing.
03:33:30 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
03:33:41 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
03:35:37 <zzo38> My experience with maple syrup is that, using with waffle/pancake.
03:38:54 <quintopia> my experience with maple syrup is that it's acidic and gross
03:39:05 <quintopia> maple-flavored corn syrup is clearly superior
03:41:16 <pikhq_> Maple syrup is the embodiment of delicious.
03:41:27 <quintopia> you're probably one of those people who likes tomatoes and olives too
03:41:47 <pikhq_> I only like either as ingredients.
03:42:47 <Gregor> I like to take two tomato slices and put olives and mayo between them
03:43:33 <elliott> pikhq_: He's joking, you moron :P
03:43:39 <elliott> Unless he's really really stupid.
03:43:48 <elliott> Also, I hate tomatoes and olives :P
03:44:19 <Sgeo> elliott, I have no idea if he's joking or not. I have little experience comparing food. Does this make me stupid?
03:46:53 <elliott> Hey quintopia, give me endless grant money to work on @.
03:47:30 <oerjan> endless £ or endless $?
03:47:33 -!- copumpkin has joined.
03:47:49 <elliott> oerjan: the former, much better rates
03:47:54 <Sgeo> endless Zorkmids!
03:48:20 <quintopia> elliott: i'll give you one hundred billion ZWD right now
03:48:37 <elliott> quintopia: (ZWD got reset recently.)
03:48:42 <elliott> quintopia: (Well, right before it got deprecated.)
03:48:44 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
03:48:45 <elliott> So that's a fair amount of money.
03:49:06 <elliott> On February 2, 2009, the RBZ announced that a further 12 zeros were to be taken off the currency, with 1,000,000,000,000 (third) Zimbabwe dollars being exchanged for 1 new (fourth) dollar.[21] New banknotes were introduced with a face value of Z$1, Z$5, Z$10, Z$20, Z$50, Z$100 and Z$500.[22] The banknotes of the fourth dollar circulated alongside the third dollar, which had to remain legal tender until
03:49:06 <elliott> 30 June 2009.[23] The new currency code was ZWL.[24]
03:49:09 <quintopia> i only have the bills from before the reset. sorry.
03:49:35 <elliott> love this caption: "The 100 trillion Zimbabwean dollar banknote (1014 dollars), equal to 10627 pre-2006 dollars."
03:49:36 <quintopia> it had hyperinflated again before it was deprecated
03:49:54 <elliott> quintopia: it was basically ignored
03:49:57 <elliott> since everyone dollarizified
03:50:20 <quintopia> the point is, any amount of ZWD is worthless now, yes?
03:50:33 <elliott> well. they basically don't exist. but if you _could_ convert them.
03:50:39 <elliott> then 4th gen zwd would be sweet.
03:53:21 -!- pikhq has joined.
03:59:55 <Gregor> I JUST WANT THE ETERNAL WAIT TO BE OVER
04:06:47 <elliott> Gregor: You could make that into a song!
04:06:58 <elliott> Gregor: A little ditty about how hard done-to you are by Somalia.
04:07:11 <Gregor> And not even any pirates :P
04:07:16 <elliott> Why, Somalia, why / I just want the eternal wait to be over / When, Somalia, when / Will you give me my domain
04:07:18 <elliott> IT WILL BE AWESOMETERRIBLE
04:07:22 <Gregor> Unless pirates have taken over the Ministry of Post and Telecommunications
04:07:35 <cheater00> elliott: well done waking up on that
04:08:03 <cheater00> elliott: next you'll be trolling about the use of the us dollar as the main currency in russia in the 90s
04:08:07 <zzo38> I found out how to make chess notation with morse code.
04:08:39 <cheater00> zzo38: is there some specific trick? or do you just use normal chess notation and transcribe it?
04:09:43 <zzo38> Files are AEIOOIEA and ranks are BDFGHKLP. The file letters are duplicated because you put the file letters first for queenside and ranks letters first for kingside.
04:10:11 <zzo38> So the queen's rook's 1 might be "AB" and the king's rook's 1 might be "BA", for example.
04:14:15 <zzo38> Now I want to make chessboard fonts with METAFONT.
04:15:27 <Sgeo> Oh, cheater00's here
04:20:52 <elliott> http://pinguy-os.sourceforge.net/ Time until Sgeo uses this piece of "Macdows" crap: 3s
04:21:11 <Sgeo> elliott, maybe tomorrow
04:21:15 <Sgeo> I need to sleep soon
04:21:33 <Sgeo> It looks boring
04:22:01 <elliott> Sgeo: How can you say that, you've used Lindows!
04:22:04 <Ilari> Of nifty. Plant "Vitamin A" is much less effective (>6x difference at least) than true vitamin A (from animals). And often is labeled the same. :-/
04:22:06 <elliott> You have NO BASELINE of crappiness.
04:22:19 <Sgeo> Pinguy OS : Linux Mint :: Linux Mint : Ubuntu?
04:22:32 <Sgeo> elliott, I've used Freespire.
04:23:09 <Sgeo> Actually, Freespire and Ubuntu are the only Linux distros I have used as a primary OS. Unless Kubuntu counts separately from Ubuntu
04:23:13 <Ilari> Ah, this site reports 12x difference.
04:23:14 <elliott> Sgeo: Pinguy OS = Macdows.
04:24:08 <Sgeo> It's an OS. Therefore, it's at least marginally more interesting than the video I got upon googling "Macdows".
04:24:22 <Sgeo> Then again, some chicken walking around is more entertaining
04:24:33 <Sgeo> http://www.archive.org/details/Macdows
04:25:54 <Sgeo> Things that are more entertaining than the Macdows video:
04:25:59 <Sgeo> A glacier moving.
04:26:01 <elliott> http://www.freespire.com/ ;; wonder how much of this is bullshit.
04:26:08 <Sgeo> An empty house.
04:26:09 <elliott> "- FACT: Michael Robertson, a self-proclaimed agnostic, went to great lengths to unsuccessfully try and have a Christian church kick out one of their members who was a former employee whom Robertson held a grudge against. Robertson made false allegations to the church of criminal activity by the former employee. UBER creepy, we know. (The Anti-Christian Expose' coming soon.)"
04:27:39 <Sgeo> I'm sad that Xandros no longer has a community edition
04:29:23 <cheater00> Ilari: yeah, gotta watch out with this new-age crap
04:29:35 <elliott> 05:05:03 <Sgeo> http://www.archive.org/details/Macdows
04:31:53 <Ilari> There are even worse practices: Like labeling industrial trans fats (extremely unhealthy stuff) as saturated fat "because they have similar chemical properties" (which is just plain mis-/disinformation).
04:32:47 <Ilari> There is a world of a difference between industrial trans fats and any other kind of fat.
04:32:49 <Sgeo> elliott, xkcd sets off adblockers
04:33:13 <cheater00> wait till you get to things like children's food.
04:33:49 <Ilari> Apparently industrial trans fats are not just heart health hazard. They are diabetes hazard as well.
04:34:25 <cheater00> yesterday we've compared a children's semolina pudding and grown up's semolina pudding
04:34:57 <cheater00> children's has 0% protein and 39% sugar.
04:35:11 <cheater00> grown ups' has 0% sugar and normal protein.
04:37:40 <quintopia> and someone else pasted me the alt text cuz i didn't care enough to view the source
04:38:16 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
04:38:21 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
04:38:41 <elliott> Well, today's xkcd is yet another instance of "it annoys me, but it's not funny. What should I do? Ooh, I remember, I have a comic!"
04:39:05 <elliott> "Comics don't have to be funny, right? What's that? They're meant to be interesting if not funny? Hmm... well, it's too late to turn back now. *hits Publish*"
04:39:43 <quintopia> all of the above is definitely true for comics released on a strict schedule
04:40:04 <Ilari> Oh, and there's also confusing industrial and natural trans fats. Again a world of difference.
04:40:19 <quintopia> it all depends on rather you prefer three mediocre comics a week or one funny one every now and again
04:40:41 <cheater00> "<elliott> i leverage myself by looking down on something that others look up to because i have no value of my own."
04:40:48 <elliott> <quintopia> all of the above is definitely true for comics released on a strict schedule
04:40:59 <elliott> I dunno, IWC regularly manages to be funny, but of course it is subjective.
04:41:10 <elliott> The key is backlog, backlog, backlog, and if Randall doesn't have a backlog I'll eat my hat.
04:41:15 <Ilari> Natural trans fats have strong negative correlation to heart disease. Industrial ones have very strong positive correlation (amounts measured from fatty tissue).
04:41:17 <elliott> I'm pretty sure he's just stopped caring.
04:41:36 <quintopia> or maybe he has no idea what people think is funny
04:41:40 <elliott> Or has run out of all good ideas but, hey, I still get money from it.
04:41:47 <elliott> quintopia: Counter-evidence: almost every comic before #400 or so.
04:41:48 <quintopia> i know some people who thought this one was funny
04:41:55 <elliott> Yes, but those people have broken heads.
04:42:26 <elliott> Old xkcd is universally liked; new xkcd is mainly liked by the diehard fans. There is definitely a *difference*.
04:42:33 <quintopia> elliott: go back and read those comics. they're not as funny as you think they are. also, i think many of them predate the three-a-week schedule
04:42:41 <elliott> quintopia: I have; they are.
04:42:54 <Ilari> The top to bottom ratio is something like 0.5 for natural trans fats (1 is neutral, the smaller the better), and 5 for industrial ones.
04:43:01 <elliott> Old xkcd also seems much more authentic to me -- not in a hipster "had-it-on-vinyl" way, but they've seemed quite strained for a while now.
04:43:19 <elliott> But those five minute comics of late were *good*.
04:43:30 <elliott> I think what's happened is that with popularity, he's ended up overediting them all.
04:44:45 <Gregor> My ad blocker blocked today's xkcd.
04:44:53 <elliott> Gregor: See: LINES JUST ABOVE
04:45:10 <Gregor> I don't want to read that much.
04:45:10 <Gregor> I just saw "xkcd" and "sucks"
04:45:37 <Gregor> Also, apparently nobody said anything about adblockers.
04:45:53 <Gregor> Oy, WAY too far back :P
04:46:01 <elliott> quintopia: I'm not saying every comic before #400 was good.
04:46:07 <oerjan> Gregor's adblocker is so good it even blocks irc conversations about adblockers
04:46:11 <elliott> I'm saying that xkcd was a regular source of funny.
04:47:07 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:48:11 -!- elliott has joined.
04:48:15 <elliott> 16:52:39 --- quit: EgoBot (K-lined)
04:48:17 <elliott> 16:52:40 --- quit: GregorR (K-lined)
04:49:12 <elliott> i cannot sleep until Gregor replies
04:49:16 <elliott> and it's 5:30 am reply you fucker
04:49:59 <elliott> 18:07:24 <bsmntbombdood> * EgoBot has quit (K-lined)
04:49:59 <elliott> 18:07:24 <bsmntbombdood> * GregorR has quit (K-lined)
04:49:59 <elliott> 18:07:40 <graue> why'd that happen?
04:49:59 <elliott> 18:07:47 <ihope_> Apparently it was for spamming.
04:49:59 <elliott> 18:08:10 <lament> spamming who
04:50:07 <elliott> 18:10:56 <bsmntbombdood> "Broken client, apparently .. not sure the details", "I'm speculating, but usually that reason means it was disconnecting/reconnecting/etc.. or joining/rejoining/etc.."
04:50:36 -!- elliott has quit (Client Quit).
05:01:56 -!- asiekierka has joined.
05:05:30 <zzo38> I ready made up a program in TeX to read Forsyth-Edwards Notation.
05:06:38 <zzo38> And it will currently print out the board in ASCII, although I can make the chessboard fonts and make it print out using chessboard fonts with light squares and dark squares.
05:08:54 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
05:09:33 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
05:12:55 <zzo38> Making TeX understand the rules of chess in order to interpret the notation correctly is a bit complicated.
05:13:42 <zzo38> Although I could probably make many simplifications in these rules
05:13:59 -!- oklopol has joined.
05:14:13 <zzo38> Like, the notation it can understand for board setup is like the following: \def\FIDEsetup{\FENsetup{rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR}}
05:14:22 <zzo38> cheater00: Formal proof of what?
05:14:38 <cheater00> that your function will correctly spit out the right chessboards
05:16:27 <zzo38> Chess boards and displayed moves (as opposed to inline moves) are printed using display math mode.
05:18:13 -!- pikhq has joined.
05:18:24 <cheater00> that's ok, but how do you know that your decoding is correct?
05:18:48 <zzo38> I have no formal proof, although I could test it with various inputs to see what happens.
05:18:48 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
05:21:40 <cheater00> would you say it's impossible to write formal proof?
05:22:04 <zzo38> cheater00: I don't know.
05:22:25 <zzo38> But if it can, the formal proof can also be typed using TeX.
05:22:28 <cheater00> i would be interested if you were to find a way to do a general proof of it
05:24:25 <zzo38> Here is the main part of the code that parses FEN, in case you want to see: http://sprunge.us/DELA
05:25:28 <zzo38> I am not exactly sure how to write formal proofs of computer programs, anyways.
05:25:34 <Sgeo> cheater00, BTW, I decided to do my own thing. While I'm not thrilled with the outcome, I'm pretty sure I like it better than the probable outcome of doing what you suggested
05:26:34 <cheater00> Sgeo: are you trying to prove you're a non-lobotomised human with own thoughts?
05:27:11 <cheater00> Sgeo: i'm asking because it's the third or fourth time you're mentioning you'll do something else, and it seems like over-compensating.
05:28:11 <cheater00> zzo38: i think you could start by defining the input data structure and based on that proving that the output data structure will always be a correct chess board
05:28:58 <zzo38> cheater00: It won't be a correct chess board if the input is bad. It doesn't verify that the input is correct.
05:29:25 <cheater00> zzo38: yeah, the idea is to prove it given the assumption that the input is correct.
05:30:40 <cheater00> zzo38: right now you can not say that your program, given correct input, will produce a chessboard (much less a chessboard of correct format, and even less that it will be the single chessboard that you want)
05:32:15 <zzo38> I have not implemented moves yet, only board setup. However the board setup can place the pieces wherever you want, so you can setup the board to be the position after a few moves have already been done. Next I will implement move notations as well.
05:32:36 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
05:32:57 <zzo38> And chessboard fonts, so that the board can be displayed using the common chess diagrams.
05:33:33 <cheater00> (i must say, i really dislike the old bitmap chess fonts though
05:34:21 <zzo38> You can suggest other ways in which they should be drawn. I know METAFONT, although I don't know a lot about typeface design. So, if you know the good way of drawing of the pieces, I can program them into METAFONT.
05:36:49 <zzo38> I might also add a few icons for pieces that are not in chess, in case of some variants, such as chess with checkers added, and so on.
05:38:54 <cheater00> i'm sorry, i don't know any alternatives that i could identify by name
05:39:49 <zzo38> In fact, I once play chess with my brother, he added checkers in front of pawns as a joke but then I said we can play that way, and both of us immediately knew what the rules for this new varaint were even though neither of us had played before. And we happened to be in complete agreement of the rules.
05:40:15 <zzo38> cheater00: Alternatives of what?
05:40:47 <cheater00> <zzo38> You can suggest other ways
05:41:37 <zzo38> cheater00: I didn't mean naming them. I mean describing their shapes in a way that I can program in.
06:00:27 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:07:14 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:07:29 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
06:09:45 -!- FireFly has joined.
06:14:29 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
06:22:15 -!- augur has joined.
06:28:57 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game).
06:34:48 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
06:35:23 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
06:35:30 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
06:44:45 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
06:44:45 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
06:44:45 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
06:47:32 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
06:52:42 -!- TLUL has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
07:03:10 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
07:03:22 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
07:28:09 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
07:42:05 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:42:58 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
07:43:01 -!- pikhq has joined.
07:58:01 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
07:58:57 -!- cheater00 has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:23:07 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
09:19:57 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
09:23:36 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:01:28 -!- Tritonio has joined.
10:17:37 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
10:33:51 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving).
10:51:51 -!- asiekierka has joined.
10:54:51 <Ilari> Ah, I think I figured out why I misremembered name of the language: There was earlier design called pointer-A that never went past initial ideas stage (never even got to spec stage). That name really had a dash in it.
11:14:33 -!- cheater- has joined.
11:14:37 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
11:17:08 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
11:44:14 <variable> HTML5 + CSS3 = turing complete :-\
11:56:37 <oklopol> your mom was turing complete last night
11:57:44 <oklopol> maybe i should've chosen my first words better.
12:15:21 <Ilari> variable: Got more info about that?
12:20:18 <variable> Ilari: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4222
12:29:15 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:43:07 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
12:43:09 <Ilari> But can one write HTML5+CSS3 that "halts" only if Goldbach's conjecture is false (such program can be written in every TC language)?
12:53:23 -!- nooga_ has changed nick to nooga.
12:56:25 -!- Gregor has joined.
12:56:43 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest28480.
12:58:35 -!- Guest28480 has changed nick to Gregor.
13:05:32 <nooga> where the elliott is hell
13:06:16 <fizzie> Where the elliott is, he'll.
13:07:17 <Gregor> The "where" elliott is: Hell.
13:11:32 <fizzie> Hitler wheelies the toll.
13:13:46 <variable> why does EVERY tv show or movie that involves a bomb HAVE to have a "which colour wire do I cut?" scene. I I ever made a bomb I'd make all the wires red so that this couldn't happen!
13:16:36 <Gregor> There's no sink in this room!!!
13:17:23 <coppro> MAYBE there's a source?
13:21:24 <fizzie> Then you can just time-reverse it.
13:42:47 -!- FireFly has joined.
13:43:49 -!- augur has joined.
13:44:22 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:50:19 -!- ais523 has joined.
13:50:49 <ais523> !bfjoust slowpoke http://sprunge.us/hcQD
13:53:58 <Deewiant> ais523: 2011-03-09 09:16:05 --> EgoBot (~EgoBot@codu.org) has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
13:54:15 <fizzie> You poked it straight off the net.
13:54:38 <ais523> well, for the record, slowpoke beats every other program, convincingly in most cases, including waterfall3
13:55:31 <fizzie> Yes, it's very convenient the bot isn't here to disprove. Almost an unimaginable coincidence, hmm? Makes you think.
13:56:14 <ais523> run it locally if you like
13:56:38 <ais523> I fear the strategy shown there may have actually broken BF Joust somewhat, it appears to be more or less completely fatal to defence programs
13:56:45 <fizzie> I'd sneak it into the visualization system but the computer's off.
13:56:54 <ais523> although hopefully it's suboptimal due to doing slightly worse against attack programs
13:58:34 <ais523> the attack uses a timer clear, which basically spends around 4000 cycles on a two-cycle clear, then switching to a five-cycle clear in the other direction if it still hasn't finished
13:58:38 <ais523> on the basis that it's probably being locked
13:59:07 <ais523> the program as a whole is a combination of that idea with a deep poke that leaves a trail
13:59:18 <ais523> or other programs that act much the same way
13:59:23 <ais523> see http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies
13:59:30 <oklopol> what are the rules of bf joust even? :P
13:59:36 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
13:59:58 <ais523> I could explain in-channel, but it'd just take longer for no benefit
14:00:11 <oklopol> for no benefit to anyone except me, no
14:00:27 <ais523> not for you either, unless you'd prefer IRC for some reason
14:00:32 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
14:00:58 <ais523> the way the game works is that two programs are each trying to set a particular cell in a shared memory tape to 0
14:01:22 <ais523> the programs themselves are written in Brainfuck, except without I/O (the . command exists but just does nothing for one cycle)
14:01:45 <ais523> each program starts at opposite ends of the tape, and > moves "forwards" towards the opponent's end, with < moving backwards towards their own end
14:02:05 <ais523> and the programs run simultaneously, every turn one command from each is evaluated and applied simultaneously
14:02:37 <ais523> (if + or - runs at the same time as [ or ], the increment/decrement's done after the flow control command; apart from that, the combined effect of two commands is typically obvious)
14:02:58 <ais523> now, the difficulty is that the programs don't know how long the tape is (it could be any length from 10 to 30 inclusive)
14:03:25 <ais523> and although the main loss condition is that the cell you started on is 0 for two cycles in a row, there's a secondary loss condition that you lose if you go off the end of the tape
14:03:40 <ais523> the tape starts with 128 at each end and 0 on every other cell, by the way, 8-bit wrapping
14:04:27 <ais523> so strategy mostly evolves around trying to set each cell along the tape in turn to 0 for two cycles in a row, on the basis that if doing that doesn't immediately win then it obviously wasn't the cell the opponent started on
14:04:47 <ais523> or else, trying to make it harder for the opponent to do that, to give yourself more time to do so
14:05:06 <oklopol> this sounds like a game that doesn't really work
14:05:19 <ais523> oh, the other thing to note is that BF Joust programs are pretty much always run-length-encoded (as (ab)*5 = ababababab)
14:05:30 <ais523> and it's been working quite well, people keep discovering new strategies
14:05:44 <oklopol> okay so now what was yours
14:05:45 <ais523> the length of the strategies page is testament to that, and comes complete with animations to show how they work
14:05:58 <fizzie> There's also the polarity flip thing, but I'm not sure how notable that is.
14:06:12 <ais523> so the one that program uses is to try to clear a cell, and change strategy if it doesn't seem to be working
14:06:22 <ais523> fizzie: as in [-]>[+]>?
14:06:35 <fizzie> No, the sieve/kettle thing.
14:06:54 -!- augur has joined.
14:07:02 <ais523> oh right, I didn't mention tournament rules at all, but it's much the same as the basic two-player rules
14:08:21 <ais523> in order to keep things deterministic, programs are run on all tape lengths, then again with + and - swapped in one of the programs (as otherwise changing the polarity of a program leads to degenerate and boring changes in results)
14:10:17 <ais523> as otherwise (changing the polarity of a program)
14:10:21 <ais523> I think you misparsed the sentence
14:10:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:10:52 <oklopol> i tried both parses and didn't get it
14:11:17 <oklopol> what do you mean degenerate and boring changes in results
14:11:54 <ais523> well, say you have a simple program like [>[-]+], and your opponent's using [>[-]-]
14:12:23 <ais523> the opponent's going to win massively, because it takes them 2 cycles to clear each element of your trail, and it takes you 508 cycles to clear each element of theirs
14:12:38 <ais523> if you swap your program into [>[+]-], now it's suddenly the other way round and you win massivelyh
14:12:43 <oklopol> right, that's why i don't see how this kind of thing could work
14:12:43 <ais523> even though it's fundamentally the same program
14:12:59 <ais523> so running with both polarities gets rid of that sort of issue
14:13:04 <oklopol> because there's always a strategy that beats everything sofar
14:13:10 -!- augur has joined.
14:13:26 <oklopol> and it's trivial to find one
14:13:31 <oklopol> i mean surely this can't be the case
14:13:41 <ais523> no, beating every other existing program is very rare
14:13:51 <ais523> although admittedly, I've done it twice recently
14:13:53 <oklopol> in any case, any single one you wish to beat
14:14:04 <ais523> beating a single program is generally quite easy, yes
14:14:10 <ais523> but it's normally at the cost of making you lose to everything else
14:16:36 <coppro> the US is literally going to tear itself apart
14:16:49 <oklopol> so how can you spend 4000 cycles in a clear and then stop
14:16:52 <coppro> the political divide keeps widening
14:17:05 <coppro> eventually the two sides won't be able to coexist at this rate
14:17:39 <ais523> even though the actual two main parties are very similar
14:18:08 <coppro> they are similar in policy, but they hate each other
14:18:15 <oklopol> wouldn't a bf joust be fun where YOU are the program, on each level you have a bf joust opponent and you don't know its code
14:18:17 <coppro> and they differ on key points
14:18:23 <ais523> oklopol: the code's kind-of complex; in slowpoke the operative code is ((+)*9[-[-([-[-{[...+[...+]]>}]][+--[+--]]>(+)*9)%1000]]>)*21
14:18:23 <oklopol> ofc, would need to have some sort of fast forward
14:18:43 <ais523> which is heavily compressed, as usual
14:18:48 <ais523> it'd be kilobytes long if written out in full
14:19:08 <ais523> although ofc the preprocessor doesn't add to the power of the language, just makes programs shorter and easier to read
14:19:09 <oklopol> and so why does that win the program that walks 9 and starts emptying?
14:19:35 <ais523> slowpoke does a lot of other stuff first in order to slow the opponent down
14:19:43 <ais523> so it can get away with a slightly slower clear loop
14:28:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:39:58 <ais523> Gregor: where'd EgoBot go?
14:40:52 <fizzie> You're just BURNING to submit your new killer program, aren't you?-)
14:44:29 <ais523> <Slashdot> 0ryan0 writes "Utah lawmakers passed a bill today to force public school teachers to teach that the USA is a republic, not a democracy, because a "Democracy" would have "Democrat" in it.
14:45:02 <fizzie> Gregor really should carry an "Egobot Emergency" pager around.
14:45:07 <ais523> coppro: oh, btw, there are some signs of that voting reform thing in the UK; I haven't heard anything about it officially or on the news, but I've seen a couple of adverts trying to persuade me to vote in a particular way on AV
14:46:23 <ais523> hmm, opinions on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Java' and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Java''?
14:46:33 <ais523> someone just created them, and I'm not sure how to react
14:49:06 <ais523> gah at LtU/proggit claiming that HTML5/CSS3 is TC based on a finite rule 110 example
14:49:17 <ais523> rule 110 is only TC if given an infinitely long initialisation
14:49:29 <ais523> it /definitely/ isn't TC given only a finite playfield, for really obvious reasons
14:52:47 <oklopol> yeah it easily follows from ramsey theory
14:53:36 <oklopol> ais523: remove them, clearly we aren't in on the joke, whatever it is.
14:55:47 <ais523> I think it's an attempt to create an esolang by removing a feature of a language that's essential to its existence
14:56:02 <ais523> because in Java everything inherits from something other than Object, if you remove Object, the idea is that you wouldn't get a language at all
14:56:21 <ais523> but I think the page is an attempt to argue that it's still TC anyway
14:57:47 -!- oerjan has joined.
14:58:00 <coppro> ais523: oh, cool. referendum then?
14:58:08 <ais523> yep, by the look of it
14:58:15 <ais523> although I haven't heard anything "official"
14:58:24 <coppro> a quick google says it's set for may 5
14:58:50 <coppro> http://everything2.com/user/Auduster/writeups/The+UK+Alternative+Vote+Referendum%252C+2011
14:59:11 <ais523> wow the adverts are early in that case
14:59:59 * coppro casts vote FOR times a billion
15:01:34 <coppro> ais523, ehird: I consider it your duty to explain to people why this doesn't suck
15:01:39 <coppro> and try to get as many votes for it as possible
15:01:49 <coppro> people are dumb and will probably naturally oppose it
15:02:07 <ais523> I need to check to make sure that it doesn't suck myself, first
15:02:18 <ais523> good ideas with terrible implementations is something that the government does quite a lot
15:02:29 <ais523> and I haven't looked at the details of what's being suggested
15:04:36 <coppro> AFAICT it just changes the balloting system from FPTP to instant-runoff
15:05:10 <coppro> not quite a proportional system, but infinitely superior
15:05:25 <ais523> what sort of instant runoff? the French system whereby there's a second ballot with the top two candidates? that one's insane
15:05:47 <ais523> or the system by which you enter preferences, and it repeatedly eliminates the candidate with the fewest first choices then recalculates the ballot?
15:05:55 <coppro> the former is not instant
15:06:11 <ais523> so it's actually instant n-minus-1 runoffs
15:06:21 <ais523> ofc the second method isn't instant in the UK either, votes are counted by hand by volunteers
15:06:43 <coppro> it just means there isn't a second round of balloting
15:08:57 <coppro> I also really like the Condorcet method
15:09:19 <coppro> (the winner is the one who would beat everyone else in a runoff)
15:09:27 <ais523> sometimes not producing a result is not really ideal for typical elections
15:09:37 <ais523> although condorcet + tiebreak for when that happens is used in several open source project elections, IIRC
15:11:00 <coppro> yeah, a tiebreak should be used
15:11:23 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:11:26 <oklopol> what does it matter what is used?
15:11:42 <coppro> oklopol: The balloting system is vital
15:11:49 <coppro> FPTP favors established parties
15:11:57 <oklopol> well right, that kinda thing
15:12:23 <coppro> FPTP also means that in a highly fragmented riding, the winner may not be the least objectionable alternative
15:12:49 <coppro> instant-runoff and condorcet systems are primarily aimed at picking as a winner the least objectionable alternative
15:13:39 <oklopol> ah that kind of thing as well
15:14:07 <oklopol> and i love hitler, but love isn't transitive.
15:14:12 <coppro> this is actually really significant here in Canada, actually
15:14:32 <coppro> outside of Quebec, there are two big parties (liberals and conservatives) and a third party (the NDP) who win seats
15:14:37 <oklopol> oh how i wish it was commutative :'(
15:15:05 <oklopol> i don't actually wish that but that what a poetic thing to say.
15:15:09 <coppro> NDP and Liberal supporters tend to be far closer toghether where the Conservative supporters are a completely different camp
15:15:35 <coppro> in practice, many NDP supporters vote strategically for the Liberals
15:16:11 <coppro> in the riding I'm currently living in, the Conservative candidate won last election by 17 (yes, you read that right) votes
15:16:18 <coppro> he would have lost in any other form of balloting
15:16:29 <oerjan> oklopol: itym symmetric
15:17:00 <oklopol> but maybe i should specify a bit more then
15:17:03 <oerjan> um this is a relation not an operator
15:17:27 <oklopol> i'll just union with bools
15:17:40 <oklopol> right eh? :DSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
15:18:59 <oklopol> the image is in 0, 1, and 0 is a zero element, then commutativity = symmetry right
15:20:54 <oerjan> i think there's some technical reason why that's bad to do in foundations
15:21:39 <oklopol> (aRb => a*b = 1 = b*a => bRa; a*b = 1 implies aRb => bRa => b*a = 1, and b*a = 1 implies a*b = 1)
15:21:52 <coppro> because relations are properties that have to be taken, fundamentally, as axiomatic
15:22:40 <oklopol> relations are subsets of a cartesian product
15:22:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:23:15 <oklopol> if we define the set {(0, 1)}, then 0 and 1 are axiomatically in a relation
15:23:44 <oerjan> the relations are at the bottom in logic, before you even start defining sets
15:24:12 <oklopol> well okay, but you'll have to buy me a beer.
15:24:49 <oklopol> anyhow i don't care what you start with, that's not what i mean by a relation
15:24:58 <oklopol> by a relation, i mean a subset of a cartesian product
15:26:17 <oerjan> WHO MADE A MODULE SYSTEM FOR MATH
15:26:21 -!- Mannerisky has joined.
15:27:06 <oklopol> so what's the difference between a relation and a set?
15:27:32 <oklopol> assuming a relation can have any arity, i still don't know what your definition is
15:27:46 <oklopol> i've always taken sets as axiomatic
15:29:07 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
15:29:29 <oklopol> and what do you call a subset of a cartesian product then?
15:29:38 <oklopol> functions are not relations?
15:29:41 <oerjan> i was thinking of predicates, i guess
15:29:51 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:31:37 <oklopol> it is my understanding predicates are something more technical than sets, and i do not speak of them because i don't have any idea what they are
15:32:45 <oklopol> i assume the fundamental stuff is pretty trivial and stupid, but i would certainly like to learn that stuff
15:35:39 <coppro> ais523: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11243595
15:36:39 <Zwaarddijk> so england is getting into a rotten-boroughs like situation again?
15:37:27 <coppro> it's just the issue that fptp sucks
15:41:38 <Zwaarddijk> I have a feeling switching to AV will cost more than $156
15:45:12 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:20:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:24:02 -!- augur has joined.
16:36:56 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:42:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
16:43:04 -!- Behold has joined.
16:43:06 -!- Behold has quit (Changing host).
16:43:07 -!- Behold has joined.
16:55:49 -!- azaq23 has joined.
16:55:59 <quintopia> can poll(2) be used to detect changes to named semaphores?
16:57:33 -!- elliott has joined.
16:58:39 <elliott> 06:06:07 <Sgeo> cheater00, BTW, I decided to do my own thing. While I'm not thrilled with the outcome, I'm pretty sure I like it better than the probable outcome of doing what you suggested
16:58:40 <elliott> 06:07:07 <cheater00> Sgeo: are you trying to prove you're a non-lobotomised human with own thoughts?
16:58:40 <elliott> 06:07:44 <cheater00> Sgeo: i'm asking because it's the third or fourth time you're mentioning you'll do something else, and it seems like over-compensating.
16:58:44 <elliott> Sgeo: troll. feeding. stop.
16:59:56 <quintopia> elliott: can poll(2) be used to detect a change in a list of named semaphores? i can't seem to find an answer to this question anywhere.
17:00:24 <elliott> quintopia: dunno, I tend to avoid bugs like that (POSIX anythings)
17:00:37 <elliott> um do semaphors actually have fds?
17:00:56 <elliott> quintopia: "poll() performs a similar task to select(2): it waits for one of a set of file descriptors to become ready to perform I/O."
17:01:00 <elliott> quintopia: do read() and write() work on them?
17:01:48 <elliott> 14:37:26 <ais523> I fear the strategy shown there may have actually broken BF Joust somewhat, it appears to be more or less completely fatal to defence programs
17:02:01 <quintopia> well, i don't know. i only know that the sem_ functions work on them. i suppose you could always read a semaphores value though.
17:02:30 <elliott> quintopia: then it might work. TIAS.
17:02:30 <ais523> elliott: don't worry, I thought of a way to defend against them on the way home
17:02:35 <ais523> although I'm not sure it's practical, at least it exists
17:02:57 <ais523> but I'm still worried it may make defence programs not really worth it
17:03:00 <oklopol> do you need aoc to prove its existance
17:03:22 <elliott> oklopol: are you trolling with this "BF JOUST CAN'T POSSIBLY WORK" stuff in the logs :)
17:03:25 <ais523> ofc, if it drives defence programs out of existence, there'll be no reason to use it, especially as it makes you weaker against opposing non-defence programs
17:03:38 <ais523> elliott: I think he just made the same mistake as Gregor
17:03:46 <elliott> oklopol: it's trivial to beat any given program, but you don't just play against one program
17:03:48 <ais523> i.e. concluding that a game in which there was a counter to every strategy wasn't interesting
17:03:50 <elliott> you play against an entire hill
17:04:05 <elliott> so you can't just target one, because everything else will beat you
17:04:07 <ais523> my opinions are the other way round, games in which there's a strategy that can't be countered aren't interesting!
17:04:47 <oklopol> no i think a random program will beat every program with equal probability, as long as it's the correct kind of random
17:04:51 <oklopol> but maybe there's no such kind
17:05:06 <ais523> a random program would lose to even a very simple attacker
17:05:19 <ais523> due to not aiming for a win condition, whereas the attacker would be
17:05:27 <oklopol> erm, what if it's the kind of random that only produces your unbeatable program?
17:05:35 <oklopol> i'm not saying a random bf program wins everything
17:05:44 <elliott> oklopol: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies#2011 you may want to read the defend13, furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls and -strapon_pegging_girls, and waterfall3 entries
17:05:49 <oklopol> i'm saying something really vague and meaningless
17:05:50 <ais523> my program isn't unbeatable, it just wins against everything on the hill atm
17:05:59 <elliott> there's also allegro, current top of the egobot hill, but without explanation
17:06:14 <ais523> although I am seeing worrying centralisation; slowpoke, space_elevator, and FFSPG are quite similar
17:06:21 <ais523> although the details are different
17:06:37 <ais523> the funny thing about slowpoke is that it was beating all but 3 programs more or less immediately upon writing it
17:06:44 <ais523> and then beat all the rest with merely bugfixes
17:06:47 <elliott> yah i would have told oklopol to read the space_elevator entry but nobody will ever write one
17:06:56 <elliott> ais523: btw, shrink your waterfall3 description, it's tl;dr verbose :)
17:07:01 <ais523> I did some constant-tweaking, but only for increasing the victory margin
17:07:01 <elliott> ais523: (quintopia wanted to put it in a spoiler block)
17:07:30 <ais523> the issue is, any abbreviation would come to "Tries lots of different locks, trying a new one every time a previous one fails"
17:07:38 <ais523> which isn't particularly informative
17:07:47 <ais523> the reason it's so long is that it has so many control paths, all of which do different things
17:08:06 <elliott> 15:25:57 <ais523> coppro: oh, btw, there are some signs of that voting reform thing in the UK; I haven't heard anything about it officially or on the news, but I've seen a couple of adverts trying to persuade me to vote in a particular way on AV
17:08:23 <elliott> and thus far superior to first-past-the-post
17:08:30 <ais523> elliott: yes, but I'd heard multiple definitions of instant-runoff
17:08:33 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting :-P
17:08:43 <ais523> also, I still need to see the details to be convinced that the way it's implemented isn't insane
17:08:59 <elliott> ais523: can't be any more insane than our current system.
17:09:09 <ais523> I'm not quite sure how the government could mess it up, but am not convinced that they won't find a way anyway
17:09:15 <elliott> 15:29:56 <ais523> gah at LtU/proggit claiming that HTML5/CSS3 is TC based on a finite rule 110 example
17:09:15 <elliott> 15:30:06 <ais523> rule 110 is only TC if given an infinitely long initialisation
17:09:46 <elliott> ais523: re Java' and Java'': remove them, they're not even fleshed out/coherent enough to be joke language entries
17:10:06 <elliott> or add [[Category:Shameful]]
17:10:17 <elliott> which -- ha -- has still avoided Graue rage
17:10:39 <ais523> adding [[Category:Shameful]] is a good idea, but someone else can do that
17:10:51 <elliott> let's add it to every BF derivative
17:11:10 <ais523> elliott: that incident (the CSS rule 110) made me register a reddit account just to try to correct people
17:11:17 <ais523> I should have made it a novelty account, really
17:11:25 <ais523> your_system_is_not_turing_complete or something
17:11:28 <elliott> ais523: Turing_Completeness_Does_Not_Work_That_Way? :p
17:11:33 <elliott> worst novelty account ever
17:11:43 * elliott immediately buys ais523 reddit gold (not really)
17:11:51 <elliott> 36 months of it for $89.97!
17:12:06 <elliott> ais523: wow at the reply to http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/g0d5g/breaking_news_html5css3_is_turing_complete/c1k03fg?context=3
17:12:10 <elliott> WebForms 2: TURING COMPLETE
17:12:42 <elliott> 15:42:24 <coppro> ais523, ehird: I consider it your duty to explain to people why this doesn't suck
17:12:42 <elliott> 15:42:30 <coppro> and try to get as many votes for it as possible
17:12:42 <elliott> 15:42:39 <coppro> people are dumb and will probably naturally oppose it
17:12:48 <ais523> what is reddit gold anyway?
17:12:51 <elliott> coppro: the standard propaganda against is "ONE PERSON, ONE VOTE: THAT'S DEMOCRACY!"
17:13:10 <ais523> elliott: actually, the adverts here are mostly along the lines of "it's too expensive and won't make any difference"
17:13:12 <elliott> ais523: Condé Nast's desperate attempt at making money off its unwise purchase
17:13:29 <elliott> We plan to continually add features over time. Right now we're offering:
17:13:29 <elliott> The ability to turn off sidebar ads, sponsored links, both, or neither
17:13:29 <elliott> The option of seeing twice as many comments at once without having to click "load more comments"
17:13:29 <elliott> New comment highlighting: see what's been posted since the last time you visited a thread
17:13:30 <elliott> Friends with Benefits™ -- you can add notes to your friends to help you keep track of them all
17:13:32 <elliott> Access to a super-secret members-only community that may or may not exist
17:14:44 <ais523> that reminds me of slashdot subscriptions
17:15:03 <elliott> ais523: I know how to ensure AV passes!
17:15:19 <ais523> the funny thing is, on slashdot the main subscription-only feature (turning off adverts) is available to anyone with sufficient karma
17:15:29 <elliott> use the Overton window: run adverts advocating stochastic elections
17:15:40 <elliott> immediately, AV seems like the most safe, comforting system on the planet
17:16:07 <ais523> even though stochastic elections would probably produce better results in practice?
17:16:38 <elliott> (I believe it's an Actual Theorem Fact(TM) that the only system where voting for your true preference is always the rational decision is stochastic elections)
17:16:46 <Gregor> My advisor points out that if you speak French better than you speak typography lingo, then "Comic Sans" reads as "not funny"
17:16:58 <elliott> Comic Sans as typography lingo... I weep
17:17:07 <Gregor> "Sans" as typography lingo
17:17:12 <elliott> 15:54:58 <oklopol> and i love hitler, but love isn't transitive.
17:17:12 <elliott> 15:55:28 <oklopol> oh how i wish it was commutative :'(
17:17:12 <elliott> 15:55:56 <oklopol> i don't actually wish that but that what a poetic thing to say.
17:17:22 <Gregor> Since of course it just means "without", but is implied to mean sans serif.
17:17:24 <elliott> But that what a poetic thing to say, oklopol.
17:17:42 <elliott> 15:57:20 <oerjan> oklopol: itym symmetric
17:17:42 <elliott> 15:57:38 <oklopol> well not necessarily
17:17:42 <elliott> 15:57:43 <oklopol> commutative works too
17:17:42 <elliott> 15:57:51 <oklopol> but maybe i should specify a bit more then
17:17:43 <elliott> 15:57:54 <oerjan> um this is a relation not an operator
17:17:45 <elliott> 15:58:11 <oklopol> why not
17:17:47 <elliott> 15:58:17 <oklopol> i'll just union with bools
17:17:49 <elliott> 15:58:31 <oklopol> right eh? :DSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
17:18:40 <oklopol> i made oerjan leave by asking him about predicate logic in pm :(
17:18:45 <oklopol> i think he doesn't like me anymore
17:18:47 <elliott> 16:22:20 <Zwaarddijk> cool typo in the article
17:18:47 <elliott> 16:22:30 <Zwaarddijk> I have a feeling switching to AV will cost more than $156
17:18:47 <elliott> 16:22:35 <Zwaarddijk> whoops wrong key
17:18:47 <elliott> 16:22:37 <Zwaarddijk> £156
17:18:55 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: nah, that's like $384,172,489,189
17:18:57 <oklopol> maybe predicate logic is his one weakness
17:20:39 <elliott> ais523: terrifying idea: get zzo38 to play Agora
17:21:37 <oklopol> so this asbestos thing, is it all a big hoax? we rented this... thing, and there are these asbestos pipes that are rather decayed, and people have drilled huge holes in them
17:21:56 <elliott> oklopol: it's a big hoax, if hoax is defined as absolutely not a hoax
17:22:04 <elliott> also, I'm scared that you can't think of a better word than "thing".
17:22:23 <oklopol> well we rented an official office
17:22:39 <elliott> how much money do you bastards have anyway
17:22:50 <oklopol> we work, so... incredible amounts?
17:22:57 <ais523> oklopol: asbestos particles in the air do gradual irreversible lung damage
17:23:06 <elliott> ais523: it's ok, oklopol is immune to lung damage
17:23:06 <oklopol> i manage to use about a fifth of my salary
17:23:11 <ais523> solid asbestos in itself isn't dangerous unless something releases it into the air, I think
17:23:15 <oklopol> and i get less salary than people usually do
17:23:18 <elliott> oklopol: just allocate the rest to hookers and cocaine
17:23:47 <Gregor> oklopol is a sophisticated chatterbot.
17:23:49 <oklopol> ais523: i'm aware, but to what extent? and is it enough to have pipes with a few holes?
17:24:08 <elliott> oklopol: have you ever been sick
17:24:28 <elliott> ais523: "Nope. While this very clever person was able to create a Turing-complete machine in HTML and CSS, it doesn't run by itself. The user has to repeatedly click to step it."
17:24:29 <oklopol> we have pointed the pipes out to many people in the building who should be in charge of this sort of thing, and they're like "oh, asbestos, right, maybe someone should do something about that."
17:24:35 <ais523> oklopol: I don't know either
17:24:35 <elliott> ais523: so HTML/CSS is as powerful as a single regexp :P
17:24:35 <oklopol> "i'm gonna go home now, have fun here"
17:24:39 <elliott> ais523: with a "do it again" button
17:24:52 <Gregor> elliott: ... HTML + CSS is TC? *brain axplote*
17:25:02 <ais523> both reddit and LtU are trying to claim it is
17:25:07 <ais523> and I'm trying to explain the holes in the proof
17:25:12 <elliott> it's rule 110; not only do you have to click to step, but it's finite
17:25:29 <ais523> there are a huge number, but the one I mentioned was the one that Wolfram got wrong in his own proof that a 2,5 machine was TC (it is, but the proof it was was wrong)
17:25:40 <ais523> elliott: it isn't actually click to step
17:25:40 <oklopol> "[20:05:18] <elliott> oklopol: have you ever been sick" <<< yes, i'm sick occasionally
17:25:45 <ais523> you step by pressing tab and space alternately
17:25:46 <elliott> ais523: well, it's press buttons to step
17:26:44 <ais523> I think of buttons as referring to mice
17:27:07 <oklopol> elliott: i even had a headache today
17:28:38 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
17:28:46 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:28:48 <elliott> i'm trying to figure out what the worst program is, anyone have any opinions
17:31:01 <ais523> "worst program" needs to have some set of programs to find the worst of
17:31:06 <ais523> do you mean "all programs ever written"?
17:33:46 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.09: 256k+3x128k+4x64k+2x32k to China, 2x256k to Malaysia, 64k+8k+/32 to South Korea, 16k to Singapore, 4k to Taiwan, 4k+2k to Japan, 4k+1k+2x/32+/48 to Australia, 512+/48 to Indonesia,
17:34:58 <elliott> ais523: either all programs that anyone uses any more, or all programs ever written
17:35:06 <elliott> and badness is defined by the amount of pain it causes
17:35:15 <Gregor> That is, Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing
17:35:18 <elliott> i.e. a really blandly terrible program doesn't really count as worse
17:35:23 <elliott> because nobody will bother using it
17:35:38 <elliott> my contender is X11, because every Unix user has to deal with it :)
17:36:21 <Gregor> Not even close, X11 nowadays is basically just bloated by history, you can do SO MUCH WORSE.
17:36:39 <quintopia> i'm going to go with with...the entire windows operating system. it causes pain to far more people.
17:37:42 <elliott> Gregor: Uhh, no, X11 was pretty thoroughly terrible from the start. :p
17:38:00 <Gregor> elliott: BlahblahblahIwurvetrollingXyaaay
17:38:12 <elliott> quintopia: hmm, does Windows cause the problems, or does the malware?
17:38:33 <oklopol> Ilari: you prolly know everything about asbestos btw?
17:38:54 <quintopia> elliott: what's the difference again?
17:39:29 <fizzie> "You don't pay for the malware", isn't that the canonical response?
17:40:12 <Ilari> oklopol: Not really... But you can ask.
17:40:33 <oklopol> http://i55.tinypic.com/140j8js.png here's the pipe in question
17:41:08 <oklopol> Ilari: mainly, should we be at all worried about asbestos pipes that are in very bad shape, or only if we actually start cutting them
17:41:25 <oklopol> i can imagine balls may fly at them etc
17:41:52 <elliott> oklopol: that pipe looks like THE SAFEST THING
17:41:59 <Ilari> oklopol: Only if you start cutting them.
17:42:30 <Ilari> But of course, if they are in very bad shape, soon somebody might start cutting them. :-/
17:42:45 <oklopol> Ilari: did you look at the picture? :P
17:43:04 <oklopol> you touch that thing and all kinds of stuff falls down
17:43:54 <Ilari> What falls down is likely just paint.
17:44:30 <oklopol> second question, that doesn't look very professionally done, is there a chance of redidual dust stuff still being in the air?
17:44:39 <elliott> yes. there is all the chances.
17:45:02 <oklopol> even after X years, where X can be determined to be rather big from the pic
17:45:20 <oklopol> elliott: the air changes all the time, and the particles are practically weightless
17:45:39 <elliott> the chances... are not bounded.
17:45:49 <quintopia> oklopol: you can get a lot of money suing if you contract mesothelioma
17:45:51 <oklopol> so it's clear that they leave, but if you had 3% of them originally, and say 0.000001% is fatal, then again hard to say.
17:46:04 <elliott> quintopia: didn't you hear
17:46:07 <elliott> he already has all the money.
17:46:13 <Vorpal> quintopia, on the other hand, having that condition is probably not worth that money
17:46:17 <oklopol> quintopia: i'm sure i'll be have all the money i need in 10-40 years
17:46:28 <oklopol> when you'll see the first symptoms
17:46:45 <quintopia> elliott: no you have all the money. all the ZWD in zimbabwe!
17:46:49 <Ilari> I have never heard of asbestos paint. Asbestos generally isn't used that way.
17:46:51 <elliott> EVERYONE HAS ALL THE MONEY.
17:47:12 <oklopol> asbestos is used in all kinds of stuff afaiu
17:47:16 <Vorpal> <Ilari> APNIC down 0.09 [...] <-- compared to when?
17:47:21 <oklopol> in walls, in pipes, in glues
17:47:22 <elliott> there's a reason tey call it as-best-os
17:47:32 <Vorpal> Ilari, okay that's pretty large
17:47:36 <oklopol> elliott: there's a city named something liek that
17:47:53 <elliott> so oklopol, is your os done yet, ubuntu is annoying
17:47:54 <oklopol> there's this van of AsBestMen in the parking lot of that place :P
17:48:03 <quintopia> if everyone has all the money, how come bill gates gets to decide what to do with so much of it, and i get to decide what to do with so little of it?
17:48:06 <Vorpal> oklopol, not any longer. At least in Sweden it has been banned for new installations for several years.
17:48:12 <elliott> quintopia: you just have to use all the money.
17:48:34 <oklopol> Vorpal: here too i think, but it's still in use in practically every building that's done before 90's
17:48:55 <oklopol> )before that there was no buildings probably)
17:48:56 <Vorpal> <elliott> so oklopol, is your os done yet, ubuntu is annoying <-- he is making one? But surely you would only find your own one usable?
17:49:09 <oklopol> oh i'm making one with fine fine progress
17:49:18 <elliott> Vorpal: he pretended he was going to make one years ago ;D
17:49:25 <elliott> and, well, it'd be close enough. to develop @ on.
17:49:39 <elliott> <oklopol> )before that there was no buildings probably)
17:49:56 <oklopol> when were buildings invented anyway?
17:50:02 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: he pretended he was going to make one years ago ;D <-- sounds familiar... hm... Oh wait, I was thinking of you...
17:50:25 <oklopol> i made a lot of theoretical progress on my os
17:51:14 <Vorpal> oklopol, nice. I don't remember what made your OS different from previous ones. Could you please mention the main points of it?
17:51:15 <elliott> quintopia: the best OS possible
17:51:30 <elliott> Vorpal: it was oklotalk and you just manipulated objects from the interwebs.
17:51:32 <quintopia> elliott: the best at achieving which goals?
17:51:33 <elliott> (had to try and do it in one sentence)
17:51:34 <oklopol> Vorpal: well you know, perfection and stuff.
17:51:37 <elliott> (some accuracy may be lost)
17:52:01 <Vorpal> elliott, and that is why it fails. You have god damn first system syndrome.
17:52:09 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: buildings go back to 7000BCE at least, iirc?
17:52:15 <quintopia> elliott: will it get me sex with all the best-looking ladies?
17:52:15 <Ilari> oklopol: Looks like that pipe leaks a bit around the valve and that's the reason why that paint has peeled away.
17:52:23 <oklopol> my only programming goal atm is to make a nice text editor
17:52:27 <elliott> Vorpal: no i don't, i just haven't put in all the things that break it
17:52:38 <elliott> oklopol: hey i did that a while ago :/
17:52:47 <elliott> it wss awesome but i never finished. also, you'd probably hate it.
17:53:11 <Vorpal> elliott, so it is a minimalist OS?
17:53:33 <oklopol> elliott: you probably didn't make the kind of text editor i want
17:53:41 <elliott> Vorpal: http://tunes.org/ <-- let a web server spend hours talking to you instead
17:53:48 <oklopol> and i'm not interested in going into detail on that
17:53:55 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: apparently, buildings go at least 42k years back
17:54:00 <oklopol> because it's not really a top priority
17:54:15 <elliott> oklopol: it was just a big window of text where every single change got saved automatically, it indented for you, and it made the file all pretty colours.
17:54:20 <oklopol> Zwaarddijk: i don't do si, is 42k before or after the 60's?
17:54:37 <oklopol> elliott: that's kind of 90.
17:54:53 <elliott> oklopol: no, most 90s editors had menus and toolbars and shit
17:55:30 <oklopol> Ilari: perhaps, perhaps. the surface under the brown stuff doesn't really look very nice and smooth irl tho
17:55:38 <elliott> oklopol: the other features of mine were: non-stupid searching, and you can run some code to do all your boring editing for you :P
17:55:43 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: scholarly consensus is that Elvis may indeed have left some building at some point
17:55:43 <elliott> who needs regexps when you can just use the language's regexp lib
17:55:58 <Vorpal> all you need is a text area, a mode line and a minibuffer
17:56:28 <oklopol> elliott: that's still kind of 50's compared to mine
17:56:37 <elliott> oklopol: yah, i'm old skool
17:56:41 <oklopol> mine just has manual editing + magic
17:56:44 <elliott> oklopol: really though, who needs any better until @ exists
17:56:50 <oklopol> well that's the great part
17:56:58 <oklopol> i'm not entirely sure myself either
17:57:01 <Vorpal> elliott, so how would you do auto completion in a vt? Pop ups would be kind of messy there
17:57:29 <elliott> what you should do is just morph the bottom of the screen into the appropriate input form as required.
17:57:32 <Vorpal> elliott, with popups I meant like auto completion menus in GUI IDEs
17:57:38 <elliott> so like a minibuffer on crack, except not there 99% of the time
17:57:48 <elliott> for completion, sure, you can do that with an intellisense-kinda thing, but whatever, I don't use completion
17:57:49 <Vorpal> elliott, right. Basically auto-hiding mini buffer
17:57:55 <elliott> Vorpal: no, minibuffer just does one line of text
17:58:07 <elliott> LOL REPLACE WITH WHAT: ...[RET]
17:58:11 <ais523> the Emacs minibuffer grows to multiple lines if necessary nowadays
17:58:21 <ais523> but its definition of "necessary" is rather restrited
17:58:37 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, mutli-line auto hiding mini buffer. Sure.
17:58:48 <elliott> Vorpal: it's not about multiline
17:59:05 <elliott> Vorpal: there's text boxes, that's like saying a preferences dialogue is jus ta bunch of lines
17:59:06 <oklopol> the best text editor would be one where you just hit random keys and magically: the correct thing happens
17:59:08 <elliott> that doesn't even make any sense
17:59:12 <elliott> there could be checkboxes too for instance.
17:59:17 <Vorpal> elliott, uh. Depends on the dialog.
17:59:20 <elliott> e.g. "[ ] Case-insensitive"
17:59:23 <elliott> is that just another input line? no.
17:59:27 <Vorpal> elliott, emacs customisation stuff is just a bunch of lines
17:59:49 <oklopol> [20:40:17] <oklopol> the best text editor would be one where you just hit random keys and magically: the correct thing happens
17:59:49 <oklopol> [20:40:19] <elliott> that doesn't even make any sense
17:59:49 <oklopol> [20:40:20] <oklopol> i'm aiming for this
17:59:54 <oklopol> i should've said the elliott part too
17:59:55 <Vorpal> elliott, also I seen such check boxes in ncurses or similar :P
18:00:48 <oklopol> that's also how my os works
18:00:50 <Vorpal> <oklopol> [20:40:17] <oklopol> the best text editor would be one where you just hit random keys and magically: the correct thing happens <-- why hit keys at all? I suggest you aim further! It should just make stuff make sense without any input
18:01:00 <oklopol> Vorpal: lol, that's impossible
18:01:13 <Vorpal> oklopol, not more so than your :P
18:01:30 <elliott> oklopol: so that mind-interface thing
18:01:38 <quintopia> oklopol: but you can still do better. have your text editor interface with a webcam. images of the user's face are sufficient input, no?
18:01:53 <oklopol> no when i realized mine was broken and that i was too lazy to send it back, i sort of stopped playing with it
18:01:56 <Vorpal> elliott, hey you correct my spelling quite often
18:02:12 <Vorpal> elliott, so will I then
18:02:14 <oklopol> only two of the sensors work, and i didn't exactly want any extra challenge
18:02:26 <elliott> oklopol: maybe you're just not trying hard enough
18:02:33 <elliott> oklopol: anyway that'd be a better edit interface
18:02:36 <elliott> think things, magic happens
18:02:40 <oklopol> "[20:42:49] <quintopia> oklopol: but you can still do better. have your text editor interface with a webcam. images of the user's face are sufficient input, no?" <<< yeah but i don't like showing my face to my underlings
18:02:55 <elliott> "By installing Java, you will bea ble to experience the power of Java, brought to you by Oracle."
18:11:06 <elliott> oklopol: can i have infinite memory?
18:12:31 <quintopia> elliott: i can. i have a stick of RAM with infinitely many bytes, but each byte is half as wide as the preceding one.
18:13:24 <quintopia> i can't use it because i don't know what to do with 2^-1024 of a bit. :/
18:17:48 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
18:18:18 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
18:18:46 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:23:51 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:24:56 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
18:28:22 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:31:29 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
18:39:24 <nooga> http://pastie.org/1652618
18:42:17 <elliott> nooga: random c generator again?
18:42:34 <nooga> trying to improve it
18:42:43 <elliott> nooga: please, please write a function to breed two C expressions, and then evolutionify it
18:43:30 <elliott> nooga: try and generate fibonacci :)
18:43:37 <elliott> maybe remove pointers first though, to give it an easier time
18:51:37 <Vorpal> <elliott> nooga: please, please write a function to breed two C expressions, and then evolutionify it <-- would be cool but *how*?
18:51:53 <elliott> Vorpal: just pick some arbitrary combination method :P
18:52:01 <elliott> breeding linear stuff is much easier ofc
18:52:58 <olsner> ooh: https://github.com/elitheeli/oddities/blob/master/rule110-grid.html
18:53:00 <Vorpal> elliott, genetic algorithms are hard to get right even for linear stuff (lots of fudge factors such as population size, mutation rate, and so on). Your suggestion is near impossible.
18:53:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Um, it's not like genetic programming isn't done.
18:53:24 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. But not on C code!
18:53:27 <elliott> olsner: we've seen; it does not prove TCness of anything
18:53:41 <elliott> olsner: not only is it finite, but you have to manually step onwards (by that metric, a single regexp is TC)
18:54:45 <Vorpal> elliott, are you sure manually stepping forward a regex would be TC?
18:55:26 <elliott> Vorpal: you can do a BCT step in one regexp... or was it three, anyway, same thing
18:55:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:56:00 -!- Behold has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
18:56:57 <elliott> zzo38: what was that very short code you had for clearing the vga text screen?
18:57:47 <olsner> something involving rep stosd?
18:58:02 <zzo38> elliott: http://sprunge.us/gRUV This boots the operating system too, after clearing the screen.
18:58:24 <zzo38> (Actually it write "p" but you can change it to make it black instead)
18:58:30 <zzo38> (Or any other color)
18:59:11 <zzo38> olsner: It does involve repeat STOSB
19:00:38 <zzo38> elliott: Why do you need this?
19:00:57 <elliott> zzo38: for my one-sector Forth
19:01:04 <olsner> if you're in real mode, maybe there's a bios call for clearing the screen
19:01:12 <elliott> arguable whether it's shorter, though
19:01:21 <elliott> hmm, is there a short way to say "move this variable to the next multiple of 80"?
19:01:27 <olsner> set ax, int foo, should be pretty short
19:02:01 <zzo38> Do the AAM and AAD instructions help?
19:02:49 <zzo38> Probably you can use BIOS calls for a lot of things, and you should not need any mode other than real mode.
19:03:34 <elliott> olsner: looks like the bios clear screen call takes a ton of parameters
19:04:34 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't you say 510 bytes? Isn't a sector 512 bytes?
19:05:06 <olsner> the 2 kast bytes must be the correct magic
19:05:30 <zzo38> That is, to boot from the disk.
19:05:56 <Vorpal> olsner, doesn't it have to contain a MBR as well+
19:06:09 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
19:06:17 <zzo38> No, just the last 2 bytes are necessary for the BIOS to boot from it.
19:06:28 <olsner> but you mean a partition table? no, only if you use partitions :)
19:06:28 <Vorpal> god I hate the PC architecture
19:07:01 <elliott> hmm, if I pack after displaying, then the code is two bytes shorter
19:07:04 <elliott> but OTOH, everything shows as normal ascii
19:07:12 <elliott> so you have no idea how your word is being tortured :)
19:07:31 <elliott> Vorpal: that's why you should run @/Reduceron
19:07:58 <zzo38> I guess as long as it is still being unique/OK it can work like packing like that
19:08:02 <Vorpal> elliott, You made a suggestion where one component is technically not vaporware!
19:08:46 <zzo38> You can just use low six bits for packing, and it should be enough, no add/subtraction is necessary.
19:09:24 <zzo38> (and punctuation can be used with no difficulty)
19:09:54 -!- Lymia has joined.
19:09:54 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host).
19:09:55 -!- Lymia has joined.
19:10:10 <olsner> don't you still want to subtract to get rid of the first 32 characters? the control codes and stuff
19:10:22 <elliott> hmm, now it isn't working :(
19:10:33 <elliott> for ! I'm going to use ^ :-)
19:10:36 <zzo38> olsner: If you pack only after displaying, no need to subtract anything.
19:10:43 <elliott> olsner: not sure what to use for : and ; though
19:11:35 <zzo38> You are using 0x40 to 0x5F? OK. Perhaps then use [[ and ]] instead of : and ;
19:11:51 <elliott> ah, that could work; except I'm doing it colorForth style, so : and ; don't necessarily balance
19:12:28 <elliott> (same as normal forth : hello if else loop then ; )
19:12:35 <olsner> or ` and , if those are in range?
19:13:41 <zzo38> No it isn't in range
19:14:19 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, that is correct.
19:14:29 <elliott> so then only [ and ] are left
19:14:47 <zzo38> There are commands [ and ] in Forth, although they are not needed in colorForth.
19:15:18 <elliott> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/talc/ typed assembly language!
19:15:29 <elliott> actually it'd be cool to have an assembler where the registers a subroutine clobbers are part of its type
19:15:54 <zzo38> Actually if it is like colorForth then : is not needed either because you can change the color. Although maybe your system does not do that. I don't know yet.
19:17:21 <elliott> Yes, I do not have colour; really in colorForth the colour is just invisible mode switching words
19:17:33 <elliott> So it's simpler to have the words themselves when aiming for speed.
19:17:46 <elliott> \ will simply, upon seeing another \, finalise the word it is creating, and go on to the next one
19:17:59 <zzo38> Yes it is like that. So, then you can just have the words themself. But then you would need something to switch out of compile mode.
19:18:13 <zzo38> If you use normal Forth [ and ] then you can just use [ to switch out of compile mode
19:18:48 <elliott> Perhaps \ will simply return when it sees [
19:19:13 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:21:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:21:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:22:23 <elliott> nah, bios would involve clobbering
19:26:53 <elliott> mov dword: possibly not actually space-saving in 16-bit code! :P
19:27:14 <fizzie> Is "char" a literal here? Because "mov ax, 0x0a00|char" is probably a byte shorter in 16-bit code.
19:27:39 <elliott> But I gave up on that avenue anyway.
19:27:40 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:27:43 <elliott> Directly writing to VGA memory is shorter.
19:27:48 <elliott> mov dword [es:0], 0x07520746
19:27:48 <elliott> mov dword [es:4], 0x07480754
19:27:52 <elliott> here's what i'm currently trying to shrink :P
19:28:14 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:28:20 <olsner> use di to point to vga memory, use string-writing?
19:28:39 <elliott> olsner: hmm... might work, but i dunno, those movs are only a few bytes
19:28:44 <elliott> 14 0000000D 2666C7060000460752- mov dword [es:0], 0x07520746
19:28:44 <elliott> 16 00000017 2666C7060400540748- mov dword [es:4], 0x07480754
19:28:50 <Vorpal> <elliott> actually it'd be cool to have an assembler where the registers a subroutine clobbers are part of its type <-- nice idea
19:28:57 <elliott> olsner: actually I use di to point to vga memory position / 2; si is di*2 in my read word routine
19:29:20 <olsner> why is di divided by two instead of being a usable memory offset?
19:29:31 <Vorpal> elliott, you could possibly have some sort of "automatically assign register to this bit" then that you would look at things you call
19:29:38 <elliott> olsner: ...good question, I think I used di for something else at one point
19:30:13 <fizzie> 2666C706000046075207 is quite an enormous opcode; that 4-byte offset and 4-byte immediate value is quite a winner.
19:30:15 <olsner> a series of mov al,52; stosw; mov al,y; stosw might be shorter than all of that
19:30:24 <elliott> elliott@elliott-MacBookAir:~/Code/sixth$ make >/dev/null; wc -c sixth.o
19:30:24 <elliott> elliott@elliott-MacBookAir:~/Code/sixth$ make >/dev/null; wc -c sixth.o
19:30:59 <olsner> lodsb would work if it's an actual constant and you can affort to make ds:si point to it
19:31:12 <zzo38> Perhaps instead of "FRTH\n" just display "ok" on the screen. That would probably make it shorter.
19:31:17 <elliott> olsner: I can't really afford that :P
19:31:33 <elliott> I can even have a "display ok" routine. :p
19:31:56 <elliott> Yes; the "ok" at the end of the previous line is the prompt :P
19:32:16 <Gregor> Turn that into "> " and you don't even need a newline :P
19:32:22 <elliott> Gregor: Ew so anti-Forthy.
19:32:32 <elliott> Gregor: I'd still have to increment si by four :P
19:33:06 <Vorpal> I hate x86 and I hate the PC platform.
19:33:30 <zzo38> Gregor: If you do "> " then you will need a newline before it, but not after it.
19:33:32 <elliott> Vorpal: ha ha, you've fallen into The Trap
19:33:35 <fizzie> You don't *need* the newline with the traditional "ok" prompt either, it's just a quality-of-implementation issue.
19:33:41 <elliott> not long until you're complaining that every OS sucks
19:33:45 <Ilari> Increment SI by four. Four INC SI's would be 4 bytes. ADD SI, 4 might be shorter.
19:33:47 <Vorpal> elliott, I have held this opinion for a long time...
19:33:55 <olsner> add si,4 should be two bytes
19:33:57 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, but you're going to start bothering everyone else with it, like me >:D
19:34:00 -!- cheater00 has joined.
19:34:17 <elliott> fizzie: in my case, I do need a newline because I don't do screen wrapping :)
19:34:25 <olsner> I think Vorpal is just hopping on the PC-hating bandwagon
19:34:30 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:34:33 <elliott> who isn't on that bandwagon
19:34:34 <olsner> has he even written a boot sector? :P
19:34:42 <Vorpal> olsner, did that ages ago.
19:34:49 <Vorpal> elliott, that bandwagon
19:34:54 <elliott> the pc is the worst thing ever.
19:34:59 <olsner> Vorpal: then I can finally take your hate seriously
19:35:02 <Vorpal> olsner, and no I never written a boot sector
19:35:14 <elliott> <olsner> I think Vorpal is just hopping on the PC-hating bandwagon <Vorpal> olsner, did that ages ago.
19:35:16 <Vorpal> olsner, I answered to the "hopping on" line
19:35:17 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, that bandwagon
19:35:36 <olsner> Vorpal: your hate is feeble and conformist
19:35:58 <Vorpal> olsner, I know enough about the boot sector to decide to not write one.
19:35:59 <elliott> olsner: i've written like three boot sectors, and small parts of post-boot-sector asm code, and know the basic principles... i still hate the pc, can i have a cookie?
19:36:14 <elliott> Vorpal: meh, it's just freestanding asm code
19:36:21 <elliott> you're running on the comfortable OS known as "BIOS"
19:36:22 <fizzie> olsner: Does it count if the boot sector just writes out a dirty message on screen?
19:36:34 <Vorpal> olsner, but if I did write one I would put a "load n sectors after MBR and jump there" bit into the MBR.
19:36:40 <elliott> the BIOS is more fully-featured than DOS
19:36:44 <Vorpal> olsner, then after jumping there I would go into protected mode
19:36:44 <olsner> fizzie: I guess it counts, but only a little :)
19:36:54 <elliott> <Vorpal> olsner, but if I did write one I would put a "load n sectors after MBR and jump there" bit into the MBR.
19:36:59 <elliott> WHAT A RADICAL THING TO PUT IN A BOOT SECTOR
19:37:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I believe that is what grub does though
19:37:19 <olsner> yeah, the MOST CREATIVE place to put a boot loader :P
19:37:35 <elliott> why is x86 not orthogonal.
19:37:45 <olsner> use the aam cheat instead of div
19:37:46 <Vorpal> olsner, and sure it is bloated. But only because x86 sucks
19:37:50 <elliott> olsner: i don't know the aam cheat ;D
19:38:33 <Vorpal> elliott, also as you said before: yes most OS are crap. But I think writing my own would be too much work. And the theoretical good ones aren't practical for everyday use. I'm afraid I'm a bit pragmatic here.
19:38:35 <fizzie> There is quite a little you can div/idiv.
19:38:43 <olsner> not sure if it's completely applicable, it seems to work on al only
19:38:50 <elliott> Vorpal: meh, all you need is a good OS + an emulation layer
19:39:07 <Vorpal> <elliott> why is x86 not orthogonal. <-- most CPUs aren't?
19:39:07 <elliott> Vorpal: something that can run a POSIX kernel and multiplex the IO streams it offers to the rest of the system
19:39:24 <elliott> (with the kernel running at a lower privilege level)
19:39:56 <olsner> elliott: just be glad you don't have to divide manually :P
19:40:05 <elliott> what, "mov al, si" isn't valid
19:40:09 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, most systems have some parts that aren't completely orthogonal.
19:40:16 <elliott> olsner: hey i wrote a few bytes of 6502 asm once!
19:40:20 <elliott> didn't quite see the appeal.
19:40:36 <Vorpal> elliott, usually it is because it would become bloated on the silicon level
19:41:15 <elliott> div just takes one operand.
19:41:18 <fizzie> Also re GRUB (pre-2), it has a "stage 1" which fits in a MBR (even with a partition table), and the typical way to set it up indeed is to load "stage 1.5" from the 60-odd immediately following sectors; then that code will load the "stage 2" which can be in a place that gets moved.
19:41:25 <Vorpal> elliott, err? is the register it operates fixed?
19:41:29 <fizzie> Yes, it can never divide anything else than dx:ax.
19:41:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, right. How does grub 2 do it?
19:41:58 <elliott> <fizzie> Also re GRUB (pre-2), it has a "stage 1" which fits in a MBR (even with a partition table), and the typical way to set it up indeed is to load "stage 1.5" from the 60-odd immediately following sectors; then that code will load the "stage 2" which can be in a place that gets moved.
19:41:59 <fizzie> (Well, or edx:eax or rdx:rax, yes. But still.)
19:42:16 <Vorpal> elliott, it contains file system reading code iirc
19:42:17 <fizzie> elliott: I think stage 1.5 is about 30k, yes; it has the filesystem drivers and so on.
19:42:34 <Vorpal> elliott, that is why unlike lilo you don't need to run a command as soon as you installed a new kernel
19:42:57 <elliott> Vorpal: doesn't need 60 sectors.
19:43:03 <Vorpal> elliott, to read ext4?
19:43:12 <Vorpal> though wait, only grub2 does that iirc
19:43:38 <elliott> (did you see my funny wordplay.)
19:43:40 <Vorpal> elliott, agree on x86 and pcs. Disagree on other statements.
19:43:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think GRUB 2 is quite similar, except the names have changed a bit. There's "boot.img" in the MBR, and that contains a fixed LBA48 sector address; it loads the first sector of "core.img", which then loads the rest of "core.img"; and at that point it can start loading modules from non-fixed locations.
19:44:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah. I haven't switched yet
19:44:01 <zzo38> Vorpal: Do you prefer ARM? Or something else?
19:44:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, I go by "don't mend what isn't broken" when it comes to bootloaders
19:44:30 <fizzie> The core.img on this system is 23817 bytes.
19:44:38 <elliott> hey olsner, gimme some code to move si to the next multiple of 80 :)
19:44:52 <olsner> elliott: I only have ugly and verbose code for that
19:45:02 <elliott> olsner: non-ugly, non-verbose code please; thanks
19:45:02 <Vorpal> zzo38, well arm is a bit better than x86. PPC is quite nice in some respects. AVR is very nice apart from being Harvard (but then most SOC in that "class" are)
19:45:14 <olsner> move the registers, use the hideous div thing, mess around some more, and you end up with stuff
19:45:24 <Vorpal> I hate PIC12-series asm
19:46:12 <olsner> elliott: one idea, if you have a spare register (!), is to just store the next 80-multiple somewhere
19:46:24 <oerjan> 17:59:35 <oklopol> i made oerjan leave by asking him about predicate logic in pm :(
19:46:28 <oerjan> 17:59:39 <oklopol> i think he doesn't like me anymore
19:46:40 <zzo38> Vorpal: When I make a new kind of computer, I can decide what kind of processor to use. Such as ARM, or PPC, or whatever.
19:46:48 <oerjan> actually internet crashed for a moment back then.
19:47:10 <elliott> olsner: spare register... maaaybe
19:47:16 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, when you suggest orthogonal instruction sets... Does that mean you hate RISC?
19:47:24 <olsner> or if you need to support several 80-multiples from the beginning of the last line you started, save the last one and have a loop to move forward until you've gone past the writing pointer
19:47:31 <oerjan> clearly this was the universe's way of sparing me from having to explain.
19:47:38 <elliott> Vorpal: you mean because risc can't do shit to ram?
19:47:43 <Vorpal> <olsner> elliott: one idea, if you have a spare register (!), is to just store the next 80-multiple somewhere <-- spare register on x86 in 16-bit mode? I laugh in scorn.
19:47:48 <elliott> naw, because you just need to omit the [] notation from the assembler
19:47:49 <elliott> <Vorpal> <olsner> elliott: one idea, if you have a spare register (!), is to just store the next 80-multiple somewhere <-- spare register on x86 in 16-bit mode? I laugh in scorn.
19:47:53 <elliott> i use the stack for everything :D
19:48:05 <fizzie> Gregor: I do hope someone already complained about the Ego-lack while you were here and active.
19:48:11 <elliott> the only register i need is basically
19:48:14 <elliott> to store the data stack location
19:48:20 <oklopol> "[22:28:03] <oerjan> actually internet crashed for a moment back then." <<< good save
19:48:29 <elliott> to store the screen position
19:48:34 <oklopol> anyway i suppose we can continue now
19:48:36 <Vorpal> elliott, two technically. Though you get the other one for free.
19:48:38 <olsner> I think the (e)bp register has shorter opcodes for reading at offsets
19:48:43 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
19:49:01 <olsner> (i.e. possibly suitable for the other stack)
19:49:10 <Vorpal> elliott, and I refer to whatever eip/rip is called in 16-bit mode (I forgot)
19:49:22 <Vorpal> ALSO: a good architecture should have only one mode
19:49:33 <Vorpal> be it 8, 16, 32 or 64-bit
19:49:38 <Vorpal> but it should stick to one.
19:49:50 <Vorpal> especially what x86 does is a major mess
19:50:26 <fizzie> olsner: I don't think it's any shorter than the other valid registers (si, di, bx); the only difference I think is that plain [bp] is still encoded with a useless single-byte offset of 0, because what would "logically" be [bp] is in fact an absolute 16-bit displacement.
19:50:28 <olsner> Vorpal: yeah, I wonder what'd have happened if intel said "hey, we have a new low-cost 64-bit microprocessor for that PC XT thing you're building"
19:50:40 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: you mean because risc can't do shit to ram? <Vorpal> elliott, yep <-- then that convo died.
19:50:52 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm interested in what you think about it
19:50:57 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:50:59 <elliott> <elliott> naw, because you just need to omit the [] notation from the assembler
19:51:02 <olsner> fizzie: don't you need a SIB byte for non-bp registers?
19:51:11 <elliott> if you can put a name somewhere
19:51:18 <elliott> then it should be able to go anywhere another name can go :)
19:51:22 <elliott> i can make like one exception, for the IP
19:51:37 <Vorpal> elliott, what about the status register?
19:51:40 <elliott> so basically, mov should be
19:51:53 <Vorpal> elliott, also you can't really put a data label anywhere on a RISC.
19:51:56 <elliott> mov :: (dst:Writable) -> Readable -> [Clobbers dst]
19:51:57 <olsner> hmm, 16-bit doesn't even have a SIB byte does it?
19:52:09 <fizzie> olsner: No; in 16-bit there's ModRM encodings for (exhaustive list) [{bx,bp}+{si,di}] and [{bx,bp,si,di}+N] with no, 8-bit and 16-bit N; and that's all. There are no values that'd use a SIB byte.
19:52:18 <Vorpal> then that foo label can not be put everywhere
19:52:21 <Vorpal> elliott, see what I mean?
19:52:36 <elliott> i'm not quite sure what you mean.
19:52:43 <elliott> obviously, you should have to load foo before accessing it, because it's in memory
19:52:51 <olsner> ah, there! I found the table with 16-bit addressing modes in the manual
19:52:54 <Vorpal> elliott, yep. And thus it isn't really orthogonal.
19:53:36 <elliott> lda :: (dst:Writable) -> Readable[Contains (addr:Address)] -> [Clobbers dst, Reads addr]
19:53:53 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway if you do have a memory orthogonal system then it probably isn't really. Memory mapped IO registers tend to have strange limitations
19:53:55 <elliott> sta :: Readable -> Readable[Contains (addr:Address)] -> [Writes addr]
19:54:18 <elliott> now I really want this assembler :)
19:54:23 <elliott> wonder if I could do it in Haskell
19:55:13 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway what about branching instructions. They aren't orthogonal in general. They tend to depend on status flags in some sort of status register.
19:55:20 <elliott> lda :: (Writable dst, Readable src, ContainsAddress src addr, Clobbers r dst, Reads r addr) => dst -> src -> X86 r
19:56:22 -!- TLUL has joined.
19:56:25 <elliott> olsner: WRITTEN THE SHORT ELEGANT CODE YET
19:56:48 <olsner> Vorpal: ARM has pretty orthogonal branching - every instruction is predicated, and so are jumps
19:56:49 <fizzie> olsner: Anyway, even in 32-bit mode you can use [{eax,ebx,ecx,edx,ebp,esi,edi}+N] with equally long encodings; it's just [esp+N] that you need a SIB byte for.
19:57:14 <fizzie> olsner: Except when you're working in THUMB mode, when all the pretty orthogonality goes down the drain again.
19:57:33 <Vorpal> oh yes that is one reason to dislike ARM. Multiple instruction modes.
19:58:22 <fizzie> Well, it's not like you'd *have* to write Thumb code at all.
19:58:26 <olsner> Vorpal: that's not a bad thing at all IMO - code that benefits from ARM instructions can use them, stuff that would better be smaller can use thumb
19:58:43 <olsner> and it's pretty easy to call back and forth (it's not like x86's instruction modes)
19:59:25 <Vorpal> also something I dislike with x86: LEA
19:59:32 <fizzie> Oh, they've deprecated the direct JVM bytecode execution mode (Jazelle DBX) in favour of "ThumbEE", which is a Thumb variant slightly tweaked to be easy to JIT managed code to.
19:59:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:59:49 <olsner> Vorpal: not weird at all
19:59:54 <Vorpal> <olsner> Vorpal: that's not a bad thing at all IMO - code that benefits from ARM instructions can use them, stuff that would better be smaller can use thumb <-- yes on a practical level. But it is messy still.
20:00:21 <olsner> but other cpus only have simple addressing modes so that the most complicated LEA instruction would be equivalent to "mov reg,reg"
20:00:28 <Vorpal> olsner, Okay true. But the way it is used to do arithmetics by compilers is
20:01:16 <olsner> elliott: takes a memory operand, calculcates the address and stores the address instead of loading from memory
20:01:20 <Vorpal> olsner, and yes I prefer ISAs with simpler addressing modes.
20:01:44 <Vorpal> elliott, often used to do multiplications with constants by C compilers such as GCC.
20:01:47 <elliott> Discover Why Thousands of People are "Jumping" to Change Their Life
20:02:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: Then you'd hate to write DSP code; they have all kinds of bit-reversed (for fast FFT (okay, so that's like PIN number)) and hardware-assisted circular buffer addressing modes.
20:02:29 <fizzie> Fast FFT Fourier Transform.
20:02:29 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it's unstructured programming for the quantum age.
20:03:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, direct, indirect and offset is enough for me. Sure indirect with inc/dec might be nice. But only on systems where you can only load a single size into registers.
20:03:34 <nooga> i can't learn haskell ;C
20:04:21 <elliott> nooga: it's because your brain is broken
20:04:41 <elliott> hey fizzie, YOU write me some code to increment si to the next multiple of 80!
20:05:03 <Vorpal> elliott, a power of two would be easier
20:05:04 <elliott> Vorpal: width of vga screen
20:05:11 <Vorpal> elliott, damn. Can't you change video mode?
20:05:11 <olsner> elliott: I already told you, stow some stuff and do it with additions
20:05:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Not easy on x86.
20:05:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean with a power of two it would be AND + ADD
20:05:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: need to stick this into 510 bytes
20:05:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: ST B, *AR0+0% || MPY *AR1+, B (a representative line of DSP asm).
20:06:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh my god. What does it do?
20:06:21 <nooga> elliott: because haskell is messy
20:06:31 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I don't think it can really be done without either division or modulo.
20:07:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: Actually I mistyped, it doesn't really make sense like that; maybe ST B, *AR1+0% || MPY *AR2+, B instead.
20:07:14 <elliott> Deewiant: div is a mess :)
20:07:26 <Phantom_Hoover> x86 is ridiculously stupid with arithmetic opcodes, at least in 16-bit mode.
20:07:32 <fizzie> Deewiant: Elliott doesn't like it how div has those fixed-register operands.
20:07:38 <Deewiant> elliott: So you clobber ax, is that somehow "not easy"?
20:07:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, also this is why I like the ISA of AVR. It is mostly sane. A pity it is Harvard though. (Only insane bit I can think of is that LSL and LSR take one parameter, register to shift. And shifts one step. Same for ROL/ROR, but at least that can be blamed on the carry flag there)
20:07:55 <elliott> Deewiant: Fitting things into 510 bytes here.
20:08:05 <Deewiant> Since it's a constant, you can of course not do an actual divide
20:08:14 <Deewiant> elliott: And? Are you already running out of room?
20:08:19 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: Actually I mistyped, it doesn't really make sense like that; maybe ST B, *AR1+0% || MPY *AR2+, B instead. <-- this is same but with AR1/2 not 0/1?
20:08:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes. I'm writing a description at the moment.
20:08:31 <elliott> Deewiant: No, but this thing is going to have a Forth in it, and I've already devoted about 60 bytes to word reading.
20:08:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, highly non-orthogonal I guess
20:08:45 <Deewiant> elliott: Dude, worry about it later.
20:09:13 <elliott> Deewiant: Ah, you see, the code to do it that way is _also_ extremely ugly. :p
20:10:16 <olsner> multiplication is exactly as horrific as division on x86 :)
20:10:16 <Vorpal> my dream architecture would be a 64-bit RISC. With lots of GPR. A handful of SIMD registers and some floating point ones.
20:10:25 <Vorpal> so pretty much PPC so far
20:10:38 <Vorpal> olsner, PPC has more GPR iirc
20:10:40 <elliott> Vorpal: my dream architecture is a reduceron.
20:10:53 <Deewiant> olsner: imul goes to an arbitrary register
20:10:55 <fizzie> olsner: No it's not: there's even a three-operand multiplication.
20:11:13 <Vorpal> elliott, well sure, but that is sadly unrealistic currently.
20:11:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: It stores the value at AR1 (what AR1 points at, I mean) into B, then increments AR1 by the value in AR0 except that the postincrement is done modulo a (base, size) pair stored in the circular buffer control registers; at the same time on the other ALU it fixed-point multiplies the value in the T register (notably not mentioned in the instruction) by the value pointed by AR2 (and postincrements AR2), and stores that as the new value of B.
20:11:55 <Vorpal> ALSO it should have sane instruction encoding
20:12:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, right, *architecture*.
20:12:22 <olsner> fizzie: ooh! imul is way less horrific than div/idiv :)
20:12:26 <Vorpal> only a handful of different sizes (come on, jump with immediate operand would be hard otherwise)
20:13:10 <fizzie> olsner: In fact is is borderline saintly, since it can do "A = B*N" (where N is 8-bit immediate) often saving you a mov.
20:13:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, wait a second...
20:13:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:13:32 <elliott> fizzie: *angelic AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH noise*
20:13:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, "ST B, *AR1+0% || MPY *AR2+, B" does NOT mention AR0 yet you said it used it?
20:13:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's the "0" in the "+0%".
20:14:06 <fizzie> And anyway it uses T without mentioning, too, so...
20:16:08 <elliott> <fizzie> Vorpal: It stores the value at AR1 (what AR1 points at, I mean) into B, then increments AR1 by the value in AR0 except that the postincrement is done modulo a (base, size) pair stored in the circular buffer control registers; at the same time on the other ALU it fixed-point multiplies the value in the T register (notably not mentioned in the instruction) by the value pointed by AR2 (and postincrements AR2), and stores that as the new val
20:16:30 <fizzie> Sadly that was the only instruction in this project to use one of the "foo || bar" double-instructions, of which there is a very limited set. And there are all kinds of additional limitations for the operands; not all of the (8, IIRC) ARx registers are usable in all those positions; only the "dual operand addressable" subset.
20:16:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
20:17:06 <fizzie> In fact I'm not entirely sure if AR2 is quite kosher there. (This is from a macro and I didn't bother looking up what it was called with.)
20:17:26 <olsner> so something like... imul by the inverse of 80 then inc then multiply by 80? could that work?
20:18:34 <fizzie> (And AR0 had to be initialized to 1 for that to work, because the "+%" addressing mode is not allowed in that particular dual-instruction, only the "+n%" variant.)
20:19:14 <Vorpal> <olsner> so something like... imul by the inverse of 80 then inc then multiply by 80? could that work? <-- imul by inverse of 80 sounds tricky. Inverse of 80 sounds tricky to do in integer encoding.
20:19:56 <olsner> you multiply by 2^16/80, and then divide (shift) by 2^16
20:20:25 <olsner> 16 could be other things though, it depends on how much precision you need and the input range and whatnot
20:20:35 <Vorpal> hm right remembered another bit where AVR isn't orthogonal. Integer multiplication has fixed destination registers.
20:20:39 <olsner> for instance, you know that the value is 0..24
20:20:42 <elliott> olsner: the input range is
20:21:00 <elliott> si = 80*n + m for 0 <= n < 25 and 0 <= m < 80
20:21:05 <elliott> and I want the output to be
20:21:29 <fizzie> elliott: Just do an exhaustive search for the shortest possible code that gives the valid output for those inputs.
20:21:41 -!- Behold has joined.
20:21:46 <Vorpal> and of course you can use IN/OUT to address the IO registers. But that is really an alias to access the lowest memory addresses. Since they are memory mapped right after the registers.
20:22:06 <olsner> elliott: maybe you can find that paper that did that for a bunch of common operations and steal their framework for bruteforcing instruction sequences
20:22:13 <Vorpal> LDS/STS take two bytes after all.
20:22:21 <elliott> olsner: or maybe you could do your 2^16 magic for me!
20:23:15 <Vorpal> <olsner> elliott: maybe you can find that paper that did that for a bunch of common operations and steal their framework for bruteforcing instruction sequences <-- ooh the super compilation to generate loophole optimisers one?
20:23:41 <olsner> yeah, that's probably the same one
20:23:49 <quintopia> i am now able to successfully identify which wiki pages were written by zzo38 without looking at the page history. does this mean today is my #esoteric zzoversary?
20:23:53 <Vorpal> why on earth did I write loophole...
20:24:44 <elliott> olsner: so what should 16 be :P
20:24:50 <elliott> <olsner> you multiply by 2^16/80, and then divide (shift) by 2^16
20:24:51 <Vorpal> olsner, awesome concept though
20:24:51 <elliott> <olsner> 16 could be other things though, it depends on how much precision you need and the input range and whatnot
20:24:58 <olsner> elliott: n, for some value of n
20:25:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
20:25:34 <olsner> n is what 16 should be?
20:25:40 <Vorpal> elliott, be careful if you want to be able to claim you wrote this thing. So you don't have to write "by olsner with some help from elliott"
20:25:45 <elliott> olsner: i'll just pick at random ;D
20:25:56 <Vorpal> hey you are doing extreme programming. Pair programming over internet.
20:26:05 -!- Patashu has joined.
20:26:08 <elliott> Vorpal: aww yeah, IRC has never been more homoerotic!
20:26:33 <Vorpal> elliott, so write out the constant?
20:26:49 <olsner> left-shift is called <<
20:27:21 <elliott> apparently "mul ax, 12" isn't valid
20:27:26 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you need a 32-bit register to contain 2^16?
20:27:36 <Deewiant> Because mul takes a single operand, not two.
20:27:40 <olsner> elliott: imul has the magic, mul doesn't
20:27:58 <elliott> Vorpal: but not (2^16)/80!
20:28:05 <Vorpal> olsner, which one is signed now again?
20:28:08 <elliott> hmm, i should fix rword before doing ok :)
20:28:33 <Gregor> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
20:28:37 <Gregor> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
20:28:42 <Gregor> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :( :( :( :( :(
20:29:03 <Gregor> Surely somebody can guess
20:29:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I have a suggestion: serial terminal. I don't know how messy that is on x86. Only done serial programming on AVR
20:29:31 <olsner> Vorpal: lol, that would make far too much sense
20:29:32 <elliott> Gregor: you didn't get it?
20:29:35 <Vorpal> where you just enable some bits in the USART control register and then write some interrupt routines.
20:29:49 <Vorpal> olsner, eh? He doesn't have to deal with anything more than \n then
20:30:14 <elliott> serial with x86 sounds like a pain
20:30:20 <olsner> so what happened to Gregor?
20:30:30 <Vorpal> olsner, but I presume the UART (hell x86 doesn't even have a USART!) programming on x86 is a pain?
20:31:07 <olsner> Vorpal: I can only guess, but of course it is painful :) it would however speak ascii since the thing you connect to it speaks ascii
20:31:25 <olsner> hell, why even bother with screen output if you're doing input over serial anyway
20:31:29 <fizzie> elliott: I *think* it is possible to program the VGA registers so that you have a text mode that has a virtual screen size of 128x25 characters, of which you are showing a 80x25-sized window. That would make the row addresses be multiples of 128, not 80.
20:31:35 <Vorpal> olsner, this was for output I meant
20:31:41 <Vorpal> olsner, and yes do both that way
20:31:48 <elliott> fizzie: yeah but i'd still have to warp at 80 :)
20:32:04 <fizzie> Maybe, but rounding up to next multiple of 128 is easier.
20:32:25 <elliott> well. that sounds difficult
20:32:27 <olsner> hmm, and qemu can probably connect the serial port directly to your host terminal
20:32:33 <Deewiant> Or always leave the rightmost 16 columns blank and use a 64x25 screen in practice
20:32:39 <Gregor> libc.so is up for auction.
20:32:40 <elliott> Deewiant: oh, that would work!
20:32:46 <Vorpal> elliott, oh? you would just do AND + ADD to jump to next multiple
20:33:42 <Vorpal> WHY DOESN'T x86 HAVE AN USART!?
20:34:02 <olsner> that'd make for some neat packaging, you just have a 512-byte boot sector embedded in a shell script that runs qemu on it as a floppy image and connects to stdin/out
20:34:33 <elliott> olsner: i kinda want to be able to walk up to some ancient 386, put a floppy in it, and be greeted to forth, though :P
20:34:52 <elliott> hmm, trying to get this imul/shl thing working...
20:35:01 <olsner> for extra points, polyglot the wrapper shell script into the boot sector
20:35:22 <fizzie> Deewiant: That doesn't really help if you have that single-value linear address that you want to directly correspond to VGA memory offset, since you'd need to round that to a multiple of 80 (well, 160) anyway. Admittedly you could keep 64x25 screen offsets and then extract (row, column) and compute the memory address, but still.
20:35:30 <elliott> olsner: uh, didn't you say shl
20:36:04 <olsner> I think I said divide by 2^n
20:36:23 <elliott> well, olsner, it's not my fault i'm retarded :/
20:36:49 <elliott> hmm, this doesn't even seem to be doing anything to si
20:37:12 <fizzie> Anyway, there's a single "Offset" VGA register value that gives the number that is added to the memory address in order to move from one scanline/text-line to another. That should be a simple thing to change to get a VGA screen that has the lines in memory at power-of-two multiples.
20:37:33 <elliott> <Deewiant> Or always leave the rightmost 16 columns blank and use a 64x25 screen in practice
20:37:36 <elliott> or i could just do this :)
20:37:51 <Vorpal> elliott, "<fizzie> Deewiant: That doesn't really help if you have that single-value linear address that you want to directly correspond to VGA memory offset [...]"
20:38:07 <Vorpal> elliott, read fizzie's full line
20:38:31 <fizzie> To convert from a 64x25 screen offset into a memory address, you'll need to split it into (row, column) and then compute row*80+column. Admittedly it doesn't need the divide-by-80 step there.
20:38:55 <fizzie> Since it's just "low 6 bits column, things above that the row".
20:39:01 <elliott> olsner: are you sure imul overflows?
20:39:25 <olsner> can you tell VGA to use 64-char lines instead of 80-char ones? will that make it display the beginning of the next line in the last 16 columns? :)
20:39:54 <fizzie> olsner: If you start reprogramming VGA, I think you should just change the offset between lines so that they are multiples of 2^K.
20:40:13 <Vorpal> why is an idle serial line always high? Wouldn't that waste power?
20:40:40 <olsner> fizzie: yeah, what I meant was: what if you make that offset shorter than the line? (because it still displays 80 chars per line?)
20:41:23 <fizzie> olsner: Well, it would show the last 16 characters of the previous line at the beginning of the next line, yes. Or alternatively you can think of it the other way around.
20:42:33 <elliott> olsner: i'm not sure there's enough precision to make this work :P
20:43:21 <elliott> Vorpal: vga=two bytes per char
20:43:43 <Vorpal> elliott, oh nice. What does it use the second byte for? I doubt it uses UCS-16...
20:44:08 <elliott> it should totally use UTF-16, though
20:44:28 <elliott> text vga mode is pretty fine :P
20:44:30 <Vorpal> elliott, that isn't what is wrong
20:44:31 <Ilari> Sure, you can program VGA display width. But that's changing VGA timings.
20:44:38 <Vorpal> elliott, what is wrong is not just having a framebuffer
20:45:02 <fizzie> Ilari: Again, you can just change the in-memory offset between lines, and keep the traditional 80x25 text mode on screen.
20:46:01 <Vorpal> what instructions does the MBR magic encode?
20:46:11 <Vorpal> just wondering if they can be used for anything
20:46:58 <olsner> you can use them as a two-byte operand to the last instruction
20:47:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: As themselves the encode "stosb; push bp".
20:47:11 <olsner> or part of a longer operand, of course
20:47:36 <Phantom_Hoover> http://soundcloud.com/r2bl3nd/windows-7-x64-ms-paint-exe
20:47:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, looks pretty useless to me
20:48:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw the string instructions on x86. They are not atomic wrt. multitasking I assume? How does resuming work there?
20:48:56 <olsner> Vorpal: they stop in the middle and save the register values that'd make them continue where they were
20:49:00 <Gregor> Who's willing to donate to the Gregor Owning libc.so Fund :P
20:49:18 <olsner> but there's also a flag to control some of the details for compatibility
20:49:47 <nooga> elliott: how is your forth?
20:49:52 <elliott> nooga: working on the display code
20:50:19 <Phantom_Hoover> But the annoyance that is conducting transactions over the internet sadly makes it difficult.
20:50:21 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> http://soundcloud.com/r2bl3nd/windows-7-x64-ms-paint-exe <-- that was surprisingly like electronic experimental music.
20:50:24 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: How much are you willing to donate? Donations will grant you first dibs on libc.so email addresses :P
20:50:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but how the fuck can mspaint be large enough to take that long to play
20:51:10 <olsner> oh, is that libc.so the *domain name*?
20:51:25 <Gregor> I'm one of thirteen bidders.
20:51:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I bet the 95 or 3.0 versions were a lot shorter
20:51:34 <elliott> Gregor: What's the current bid?
20:51:35 <Gregor> I rate my chances of actually getting it as "very low"
20:51:35 <Phantom_Hoover> (I'm actually surprised at the nature of that; repetition I would have understood, but why does it actually change?)
20:51:41 <Vorpal> Gregor, go for libc6.so :P
20:51:43 <Gregor> elliott: Bidding doesn't open 'til the 28th.
20:51:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: tables, I bet
20:51:52 <Gregor> Vorpal: WOW THAT'S SO CLEVER CUZ IT'S NOT A REAL FILENAME
20:51:55 <elliott> I bet the noise at the start is all the code
20:52:05 <elliott> Gregor: libc.so isn't either, it's libc.so.6 everywhere :)
20:52:10 <elliott> <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> http://soundcloud.com/r2bl3nd/windows-7-x64-ms-paint-exe <-- that was surprisingly like electronic experimental music.
20:52:15 <elliott> Wasn't "surprisingly like"; was.
20:52:19 <elliott> Although not terribly experimental :P
20:52:24 <Gregor> elliott: libc.so is a real filename, it's the one -lc looks for.
20:52:29 <Vorpal> elliott, I fear your music taste :P
20:52:36 <elliott> Vorpal: It's more perfectly normal chiptuney stuff interrupted by insanity every few seconds.
20:52:38 <Gregor> elliott: It's typically either a symlink, or on GNUy systems a bizarre linker script.
20:52:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
20:52:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host).
20:52:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
20:53:16 <Gregor> elliott: With that setup, people who want to link against libc :P
20:53:17 <Vorpal> Gregor "Weird Linker Script" Gregor
20:53:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I would totally buy Windows Programs: The Album.
20:53:27 <olsner> I expected it to be more like white noise actually
20:53:32 <elliott> Vorpal: X "Name" X is my trademark.
20:53:43 <Vorpal> elliott, I seen it elsewhere
20:53:50 <elliott> No, X "Name" Y is traditional :P
20:53:56 <Vorpal> elliott, that is more common
20:53:59 <elliott> e.g. Gregor "Memory leaks, what memory leaks?" Richards.
20:54:00 <olsner> what is causing the repetition that makes a tone, and even that recurring melody?
20:54:04 <elliott> My innovation was EXTENDING IT TO ANY NAME
20:54:09 <elliott> olsner: Like I said: I suspect either tables or padding.
20:54:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: domain names are expensive
20:54:19 <Vorpal> elliott, I claim prior art exists
20:54:32 <olsner> elliott: yeah, I guess
20:54:35 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I don't know what the bid will be, I'll place an undisclosed amount measured in hundreds of USD on it, but every little bit helps. I'll only actually call in on donations if the bid goes above my undisclosed max.
20:54:50 <elliott> Gregor: I demand more than one email for your donation.
20:54:51 <olsner> elliott: tables or padding
20:55:02 <Gregor> elliott: If you donate, I will give more than one email address.
20:55:07 <elliott> Gregor: Also, I demand the full governmental transparency that you are not demonstrating. :-P
20:55:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://soundcloud.com/cpngn/sets/selected-tracks-from-apt Apparently these are partially based on programs too, but who knows how much.
20:55:24 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:55:24 <elliott> (In the comments of that one.)
20:55:29 <Gregor> elliott: It's undisclosed because I don't know how much I'll bid on libm.so, which goes up for auction first X-P
20:55:42 <elliott> Gregor: libm.so is really a lot less impressive to own :P
20:55:51 <elliott> I wouldn't bother bidding on it.
20:55:52 <Gregor> But there are only two bidders including myself :P
20:55:54 <elliott> Even if it does have better emails.
20:56:02 <Gregor> So I can probably get it for like $20 :P
20:56:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't see why that is better than strlen@libso.so
20:56:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Consider a person named Jo or Joe.
20:57:10 <Vorpal> elliott, but Gregor isn't named that so he would gain nothing
20:57:16 <elliott> Vorpal: He's giving emails to other people.
20:57:50 <elliott> Gregor: Do the emails come with subdomain records :P
20:57:51 <fizzie> pcre_get_stringtable_entries@libpcre.so, the most-wanted thing ever.
20:58:04 <Gregor> elliott: Hmmm, I would be willing to give subdomain records with sufficient donations.
20:58:16 <elliott> I personally want SOME_INCOMPREHENSIBLE_MANGLED_NAME@libstdc++.so
20:58:27 <elliott> /usr/lib/libopcodes-2.20.51-system.20100908.so
20:58:28 <olsner> fizzie: not too bad at all actually, it has humor
20:58:43 <Gregor> It's too late to register anything :P
20:58:46 <Vorpal> elliott, if you want THAT then go for libboost.so
20:59:22 <fizzie> elliott: _ZN5boost10filesystem24basic_directory_iteratorINS0_10basic_pathISsNS0_11path_traitsEEEE6m_initERKS4_@libboost_filesystem.so
20:59:23 <olsner> libBrokenLocale.so perhaps? no idea whatsoever what that does, but it has a funny name
20:59:23 <elliott> hmm, how can I get a list of symbols libc.so exports?
20:59:42 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
21:00:05 <elliott> Deewiant: strings gives unrelated crap on libc
21:00:12 <elliott> lots of what looks like macro expansions
21:00:30 <elliott> what, gnu sort can't sort by length
21:00:34 <Vorpal> elliott, running nm -D /usr/lib/lib*.so.*.* | awk '{print length($NF),$NF }' | sort -n | tail -n20
21:00:39 <Vorpal> elliott, lets see what it finds
21:00:42 <Deewiant> Of course it does, it gives crap on any binary :-P
21:00:47 <fizzie> "nm -D" seems nicely sorted.
21:00:48 <elliott> Gregor: Hereby reserving ffs@libc.so and ftw@libc.so
21:01:01 <elliott> ffs, ffsl, ffsll - find first bit set in a word
21:01:03 <elliott> ftw, nftw - file tree walk
21:01:11 <Vorpal> <fizzie> "nm -D" seems nicely sorted. <-- on what? Address it seems
21:01:17 <Gregor> WHY DID I NEVER KNOW ABOUT ffs
21:01:18 <elliott> Or or, do I want abs, or tee, or err, or dup...
21:01:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's sorted on symbol names here.
21:01:24 <Vorpal> 1384 _ZNK5boost6spirit7classic4impl15concrete_parserINS1_8sequenceINS1_6actionINS1_4ruleINS1_7scannerISt20_List_const_iteratorINS_4wave8cpplexer9lex_tokenINS9_4util13file_positionINSC_11flex_stringIcSt11char_traitsIcESaIcENSC_9CowStringINSC_22AllocatorStringStorageIcSH_EEPcEEEEEEEEENS1_16scanner_policiesINS1_28skip_parser_iteration_policyINS1_11alternativeINST_INS1_5chlitINS9_8token_idEEESW_EESW_EENS1_1
21:01:24 <Vorpal> 6iteration_policyEEENS1_12match_policyENS1_13action_policyEEEEENS1_15closure_contextINS9_8grammars8closures16cpp_expr_closureEEENS1_5nil_tEEEN7phoenix5actorINS1C_9compositeINS1C_9assign_opENS1D_INS1C_14closure_memberILi0ENS1C_7closureINS17_13closure_valueENS1C_5nil_tES1J_S1J_S1J_S1J_EEEEEENS1D_INS1C_8argumentILi0EEEEES1J_S1J_S1J_S1J_S1J_EEEEEENS1_11kleene_starINST_INST_INST_INS4_ISW_NS5_IS1B_NS1D_INS1E_
21:01:25 <Gregor> I've wanted that function LITERALLY ONES OF TIMES
21:01:25 <Vorpal> IS1F_S1M_NS1D_INS1E_INS16_4impl22operator_binary_lesseqES1M_S1P_S1J_S1J_S1J_S1J_S1J_EEEES1J_S1J_S1J_S1J_S1J_EEEEEEEENS4_ISW_NS5_IS1B_NS1D_INS1E_IS1F_S1M_NS1D_INS1E_INS1U_23operator_binary_greateqES1M_S1P_S1J_S1J_S1J_S1J_S1J_EEEES1J_S1J_S1J_S1J_S1J_EEEEEEEEEENS4_ISW_NS5_IS1B_NS1D_INS1E_IS1F_S1M_NS1D_INS1E_INS1U_20operator_binary_lessES1M_S1P_S1J_S1J_S1J_S1J_S1J_EEEES1J_S1J_S1J_S1J_S1J_EEEEEEEEEENS4_ISW_N
21:01:30 <Vorpal> S5_IS1B_NS1D_INS1E_IS1F_S1M_NS1D_INS1E_INS1U_23operator_binary_greaterES1M_S1P_S1J_S1J_S1J_S1J_S1J_EEEES1J_S1J_S1J_S1J_S1J_EEEEEEEEEEEEEES14_S1I_E16do_parse_virtualERKS14_
21:01:37 <Vorpal> elliott, take that one
21:01:51 <Gregor> elliott: If you actually donate, I will give vanity ALL SORTS OF WHATEVER YOU WANT
21:01:52 <Vorpal> elliott, 1384 bytes long symbol name
21:02:05 <elliott> Gregor: I cannot parse that line :P
21:02:31 <elliott> 33 posix_spawn_file_actions_addclose
21:02:31 <elliott> THE LONGEST THING EXPORTED BY LIBC.SO
21:02:36 <elliott> Is that in cfunge yet, Vorpal?
21:02:40 <Gregor> elliott: How 'bout this: I will give you one extra @libc.so address for every 15USD you donate :P
21:02:46 <Vorpal> elliott, it is in /usr/lib/libboost_wave-mt.so.1.45.0
21:02:56 <elliott> Gregor: You realise I'm the only person who's even remotely likely to donate in this channel :P
21:03:04 <elliott> Vorpal: But, posix_spawn_file_actions_addclose might be useful!
21:03:15 <Vorpal> elliott, posix_spawn is just stuipd
21:03:22 <Vorpal> have you even looked at that stuff?
21:03:31 <Gregor> Come on people, EVERY LITTLE BIT HELPS! I will try my best to make it worth the money! Think of how awesome it would be to know the person who owns libc.so!
21:05:08 <elliott> "You've made me...... wordfree. What's the word?" "'Speechless'?" "Right, that one."
21:05:13 <zzo38> I do not have very much United States money.
21:05:23 <elliott> zzo38: yes you do, it's just stored in the form of canadian money
21:05:41 <elliott> just like i have literally ones of ponies
21:05:49 <zzo38> Then I have to convert it.
21:06:16 <elliott> Gregor: Today I learned that most libc symbols have boring names.
21:06:35 <elliott> Gregor: WHY CAN'T THERE BE SOME FATAL ERROR FUNCTION CALLED wtf()
21:06:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I tried -CD (to demangle)
21:06:43 <Vorpal> elliott, it is too long to paste on irc
21:06:50 <Vorpal> it is too long to fit in my terminal window
21:06:59 <elliott> IT IS LONGER THAN TIME ITSELF.
21:07:28 <elliott> olsner: If I omit the add, it reliably returns to the start of the current line
21:07:34 <elliott> but that was just as buggy :D
21:07:37 <elliott> despite being 10x more logical
21:07:39 <Vorpal> god damn over 10 000 chars long.
21:08:05 <olsner> Vorpal: OVER NINE THOUSAAAAND?
21:08:16 <Vorpal> olsner, dude too late :P
21:08:17 <Vorpal> http://sprunge.us/YHRR
21:08:33 <Vorpal> I have to say that the name mangling does a good job.... considered
21:09:04 <Vorpal> I wonder how they wrote that thing
21:09:22 <olsner> well, templates is code generation, pretty much
21:09:23 <Vorpal> I mean, not even boost developers would end up writing out such a long line
21:09:33 <olsner> and typedefs for compressing duplicated parts
21:09:43 <oerjan> <Gregor> elliott: If you actually donate, I will give vanity ALL SORTS OF WHATEVER YOU WANT <-- prediction, Gregor gets the domain and then goes bankrupt from all the resulting obligations
21:10:13 <Gregor> oerjan: Prediction: I actually accept giving out only vanity email addresses and subdomains :P
21:10:16 <Vorpal> olsner, does the mangled variant compress duplicate sections?
21:11:01 <olsner> but it should be fairly obvious whether it does
21:11:03 <Vorpal> olsner, how does it manage to compress it into 1384 bytes then
21:11:29 <elliott> why isn't "div 80" valid in nasm
21:11:30 <Vorpal> olsner, the unmangled one is 10339 chars after all
21:11:35 <oerjan> Gregor: THE AMOUNT OF SUBDOMAINS WILL BE SO ENORMOUS YOU GO BANKRUPT FROM BUYING THE DNS SERVER
21:11:40 <Vorpal> elliott, went back to div instead of imul?
21:11:56 <olsner> looks like it's using the namespaces to say "outer namespace::sequence" rather than "boost::spirit::classic::sequence"
21:12:07 <elliott> Vorpal: because the imul solution is unworkable
21:12:39 <Vorpal> elliott, why not switch to the 128 line length stuff
21:12:41 <fizzie> elliott: You can only divide by a reg/mem8 or reg/mem16, not by an immediate.
21:12:47 <elliott> hmm, wow, my archive binging actually failed
21:12:58 <elliott> after over a week of binging, i haven't continued :)
21:13:14 <elliott> which is WAY TOO DAMN LONG
21:13:59 <olsner> elliott: is homestuck == http://www.mspaintadventures.com/ ? (that's the first google hit)
21:14:11 <elliott> olsner: homestuck \elem mspaintadventures
21:14:22 <fizzie> Homestuck is horribly long, yes; I recently (three months ago?) read through it manually, but then haven't actually continued following it; it was all just so much.
21:14:48 <elliott> fizzie: One of my friends follows it and as far as I can tell it eats about ~99% of his time. :p
21:15:52 <olsner> 3600 that's just an hour if you spend 1s per page
21:16:26 <elliott> olsner: uh, more than 3600 I believe
21:16:46 <elliott> olsner: anyway, pages have sometimes-long narration, and can have usually-long chatlogs, plus that's ignoring all the flash updates
21:16:58 <olsner> hmm, where did I get that number? you didn't tell me how long it was
21:17:06 <elliott> which are (up to the point I read, anyway) up to a few minutes long. also the ... "games" (is it a game if there's only one outcome?), which of course take an arbitrary amount of time
21:17:18 <elliott> olsner: well the comic id starts at like 1900 I think, and it's at 5xxx for some xxx
21:17:19 <fizzie> "approximately 3,600 pages as of the end of February, 2011"
21:17:33 <fizzie> (From the mspaintadventures wikia.)
21:17:34 <elliott> 5500-1900 = 3600, so yeah.
21:17:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: lol, looks like a face
21:17:57 <fizzie> But there's quite often some complicated flash things to navigate and all that.
21:18:04 <fizzie> So "one second per page" doesn't really work.
21:18:14 <elliott> fizzie: Sheesh, I just said that :P
21:18:21 <fizzie> Oh, I missed it in the babble.
21:18:40 <elliott> i suppose there are games with only one outcome
21:18:51 <elliott> and other such advenchoor gaymes
21:19:18 <elliott> argh, I think the problem is
21:19:23 <elliott> that the "ok" is being accounted for wrongly
21:24:10 <fizzie> Anyway! mov dx, 0x03d4; mov al, 0x13; out dx, al; inc dx; mov al, 0x80; out dx; and that should (very theoretically; probably doesn't work) leave the display card using 256-byte offset between text lines in memory. (Assuming VGA, and assuming it's in the CGA mode and not the Hercules/MDA mode. And like I said, probably won't work.)
21:24:35 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
21:25:13 <fizzie> elliott: Have you remembered to zero dx there? Or if not, you probably want div bl.
21:25:39 <fizzie> Since "div bx" will divide dx:ax by 160 there.
21:25:59 <fizzie> Of course then you'll end up with quotient in al and remainder in ah.
21:26:07 <fizzie> (If you divide by bl.)
21:27:08 <elliott> hmm, do imuls on al overflow into ah?
21:27:43 <fizzie> You can't imul a byte.
21:28:10 <fizzie> Or, hmm, yes, you in fact can, with the single-operand form.
21:28:30 <elliott> ok:mov dword [es:si], 0x076b076f
21:29:16 <fizzie> For one thing, you could "mul bl" in place of "xor ah, ah; imul ax, 160".
21:29:28 <fizzie> Assuming you still have 160 in bl, that would multiply al by bl and put the result in ax.
21:29:50 <elliott> 24 00000022 89F0 mov ax, si
21:29:50 <elliott> 25 00000024 B3A0 mov bl, 160
21:29:51 <elliott> 29 0000002C 89C6 mov si, ax
21:29:54 <elliott> At least they're short instructions.
21:30:14 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:30:44 <olsner> inc ax should be a single-byte instruction
21:31:13 -!- pingveno has joined.
21:31:35 <olsner> (I know because the single-byte inc instructions have been reused as REX prefixes in long mode)
21:32:16 <elliott> aha, if I use di for the screen pointer it's shorter by two bytes!
21:32:28 <zzo38> elliott: Well, you started OK. There is still more room left.
21:32:40 <elliott> except that using di like that breaks it
21:32:43 <elliott> probably the bios call clobbers it
21:33:21 <zzo38> Save to stack if necessary?
21:33:26 -!- Behold has joined.
21:33:37 <elliott> simpler just to use si, I think
21:33:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:33:50 <zzo38> Yes use si if it doesn't break
21:34:01 <elliott> OK, so now I have keyboard input, apart from numbers... I should probably write an interpreter word
21:34:04 <elliott> Here's what I'm thinking for the dictionary:
21:34:17 <elliott> <32-bit name (2 bits unused; don't know what to do with them)> <code pointer> <data pointer>
21:34:23 <elliott> Just lots of them consecutively in memory.
21:34:35 <elliott> Actually, do I need a separate code and data pointer?
21:34:39 <elliott> Can't I just generate machine code on the fly, and just have
21:34:48 <elliott> Even for integers, possibly.
21:34:52 <olsner> what does the data pointer do?
21:35:26 <elliott> olsner: for instance, if code pointer = LITERAL (I forget the exact name), it pushes the data to the stack
21:35:29 <elliott> because the data is the integer literal
21:35:35 <elliott> normally, the code pointer is just a stub that jumps to the data, IIRC
21:35:41 <elliott> zzo38 can probably correct me on this :)
21:35:50 <olsner> right, so you could just generate code that includes that literal?
21:36:02 <elliott> olsner: that's what i'm thinking
21:36:43 <elliott> the dictionary will not be terminated yet, so any invalid word will just crash the forth :)
21:37:54 <elliott> apparently dword [ds:ax] is an invalid effective address :(
21:38:08 <fizzie> Yes, only bx/bp/si/di work there.
21:38:31 <olsner> ax is ineffective as an address :)
21:38:53 <fizzie> And they call their registers "general-purpose"...
21:39:24 <elliott> more like general porpoise
21:41:03 <elliott> hey, I can use a 16-bit code pointer!
21:41:09 <elliott> so just 6 bytes per dictionary entry
21:41:45 <olsner> are you doing this in real mode completely now?
21:42:07 <elliott> hmm, with "org 0x7c00", is the code segment 0 or 0x7c00?
21:42:52 <elliott> ok, I have what is ostensibly an interpreter word
21:42:54 <olsner> that means the code segment is supposed to be 0x7c0(0)
21:43:10 <olsner> ostensibly is a good word
21:43:56 <fizzie> olsner: What it means is that starting from there, the assembler assumes the current address is 0x7c00; I don't think that works at all if cs=0x7c0, since then you'd have "org 0" code?
21:44:12 <elliott> hmm, or should I inline the machine code of every word into the dictionary :D
21:44:14 <elliott> to avoid having to juggle memory
21:44:19 <olsner> fizzie: hmm, so I have it backwards then? yuck
21:44:44 <Ilari> Doesn't BIOS jump to loaded boot block at 0000:7C00?
21:44:49 <elliott> "error: words can only call up to 10 other words"
21:45:06 <elliott> Ilari: Apparently some do 7c00:0, but that's hearsay.
21:45:39 <fizzie> You mean 7c0:0, but anyway. Sounds rather nasty.
21:46:05 <Ilari> From one emulator: Emulated: BIOS output: Booting from 0000:7c00
21:46:08 <elliott> olsner: hmm, I should pick a location for my data stack, and a register to put it in :)
21:46:15 <elliott> Ilari: I think all _sane_ ones do it that way.
21:47:01 <olsner> elliott: use si instead of di for reading the dict, then you can use string instructions :P
21:47:05 <elliott> oh wait literal _doesn't_ work that way
21:47:07 <elliott> it looks at the return stack
21:47:15 <elliott> so the assembly is literally
21:47:21 <elliott> [call LITERAL]; <some value>
21:47:29 <elliott> depends where it returns to
21:47:33 <elliott> <olsner> elliott: use si instead of di for reading the dict, then you can use string instructions :P
21:47:35 <elliott> olsner: could I really? :P
21:48:08 <olsner> at least if you can use a 32-bit lodsd from 16-bit mode
21:48:12 <elliott> I use si already for the screen, but that sounds like a bigger win
21:48:16 <elliott> olsner: problem is, each entry is 6 bytes
21:48:25 <elliott> (4 byte dword name + 2 byte code pointer)
21:48:35 <olsner> si is for reading and di is for writing :) swap them
21:48:42 <elliott> with a data pointer, I could do indirect threaded code
21:48:51 <elliott> which WOULD allow for "LITERAL, 42"
21:48:59 <elliott> olsner: well i don't use any special features of it, it's just so that [es:foo] is short
21:49:09 <elliott> I even do it separately like
21:49:19 <elliott> (ah contains the scancode)
21:50:54 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:51:13 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:51:26 <fizzie> If you have 4-byte names and 2+2-byte pointers, you *could* even use some sort of "repne scasd" thing for automagically scanning the dictionary for a word; with the "minor" drawback that if the data/code pointer concatenated happens to look too much like a word, you'd then interpret the following word name as data:code pointers.
21:51:57 <elliott> fizzie: Hmm, so having another pointer in the dictionary might actually save me bytes ... and would let me do indirect threaded code...
21:52:16 <fizzie> (scasd uses di, though, not si.)
21:52:16 <olsner> I think scasd is a win anyway, since it both increments si and compares
21:52:18 <elliott> fizzie: You mean if a code/data pointer was the same as the name entered?
21:52:25 <elliott> That would be unfortunate, but seems unlikely.
21:52:42 <fizzie> If a code:data pointer concatenated, assuming words were 4 bytes and pointers 2.
21:53:03 <elliott> fizzie: That seems a bit unlikely.
21:53:52 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
21:54:03 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:55:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:56:15 <elliott> Just realised I'm devoting large amounts of effort to writing a completely buggy implementation of a quarter of Forth :P
21:56:56 <fizzie> Oh, there's a bit of an issue in that the string opcodes use either ds:si or es:di; so scasd, which uses di, actually uses es:di instead, and if your es points to video memory, that's not very good.
21:57:21 <elliott> fizzie: I could always initialise si to video memory, but then newline would be a pain :P
21:57:26 <elliott> Unless 0xB800 is a multiple of 80.
21:59:12 -!- nescience has joined.
21:59:32 -!- sftp has joined.
22:00:11 <elliott> OK i tried running it i have problems with it . this is what i get. when it asks the first quistion i say yes it hangs completely then reboots. i say no then i enter the code failure how do i boot it? Your os looks like windows 1.0 buty has way more features. When is the next release coming out ? Why not turn this into a comunity prodject ? its opensource. We make it secure and give it more aplications.
22:01:30 <elliott> OK, I think I will include a data pointer.
22:01:38 <elliott> Not sure how to pass it to the routine though. Maybe ax.
22:02:01 <olsner> using one of the many registers available for such things :D
22:02:55 <elliott> There are many things the x86 has many of, like design flaws, but registers of any kind are not one :P
22:03:39 <nescience> you guys might be good to ask; any of you familiar with range encoding?
22:04:43 <elliott> try it when the clever people are on, not dolts like me and olsner
22:04:53 <elliott> <olsner> hey, I resemble that remark!
22:05:43 <nescience> I am trying to figure out if there's a clean way to do a range encoder that outputs in base 192375
22:06:03 <nescience> or is that 193275? something like that. 3*3*3*3*5*5*5*19
22:07:29 <nescience> anyway it obviously won't divide very many times evenly
22:07:29 <olsner> "clean" way? no, all possible ways will cover you in excrement
22:07:47 <nescience> clean as in I don't lose data to rounding
22:08:09 <nescience> but I don't think that's possible / likely using a fixed buffer
22:08:13 <elliott> yeah, you have to use the range_encode_and_cover_author_of_code_in_excrement subroutine
22:08:18 <elliott> available in most language's standard libraries
22:08:49 <nescience> so failing that, I don't know if it will be better than huffman
22:09:23 <nescience> I can store 17 bits of huffman output in 192375 symbols but there is waste
22:09:55 <nescience> I can store 35 in 192375^2 which gains a bit but is still wasteful
22:10:19 <nescience> I don't know how much waste there would be from trying to use range coding to fit the output better is all
22:13:02 <elliott> out of curiosity, what are you doing?
22:16:48 <nescience> encoding binary data into mirc control codes
22:17:09 <nescience> if I update it to mirc 7 which has italics I bet I could get rather more efficiency
22:17:34 <nescience> but it's not been so long, maybe some clients would still display it
22:19:33 <nescience> right now it expands the data by 272% about
22:19:44 <nescience> which is pretty good, it used to be 400%
22:20:14 <nescience> and it's block based so there's some waste there and also in transmission of the huffman data
22:21:47 <nescience> I'll also accept a way of outputting huffman or range encoding to variable length symbols ;)
22:22:02 <elliott> nescience: Cheat. gzip it before encoding :-P
22:22:12 <nescience> I have an idea or two on that count actually, but no idea if it'd be optimal
22:22:22 <nescience> I already huffman compress it first
22:22:39 <nescience> I never got around to full deflate
22:22:55 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
22:22:58 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host).
22:22:58 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
22:22:59 <Gregor> They're not allocated yet, but they are reserved for me.
22:23:14 -!- nescience has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:23:40 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:23:40 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:23:40 <elliott> gzgets <-- why does this even exist
22:24:23 <elliott> olsner: I need to write a program to pack names into their dwords so I can pre-fill the dictionary without tearing my hear out :)
22:24:27 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:24:48 -!- nescience has joined.
22:25:53 <elliott> olsner: that sounds "difficult" in nasm
22:27:05 <nescience> right so anyway, the challenge is to encode data efficiently in mirc control codes; I can approach 261 or something like that by lengthening the block size but that'd be a shitload of permutations
22:27:49 <nescience> of which I don't know an efficient way to calculate either the total values or a specific permutation, that'd be nice too
22:28:26 <fizzie> Nothing is "just general-purpose"; dx is at least special in that it's the only thing you can stick an IO port, there's "out imm8, al/ax/eax" and "out dx, al/ax/eax" but that's it.
22:28:35 <fizzie> Possibly it doesn't have any other special features.
22:28:53 <fizzie> Well, and it's the upper half of the dx:ax construction for div/mul.
22:29:24 <elliott> fizzie: huh what what's that in reply to
22:29:33 <fizzie> <elliott> hmm, what's dx again?
22:29:33 <fizzie> <elliott> just general purpose?
22:29:44 <elliott> well, right. i meant it's not stack or anything.
22:29:54 <elliott> what will usually be there is a pointer, but all my pointers are pretty much used up :)
22:36:13 <Gregor> I should go on ##c and ask people to donate :P
22:37:13 <elliott> Gregor: Err, have you ever been in ##c?
22:37:27 <Gregor> Yeah, it's not a good idea X-P
22:37:30 <elliott> Responses will fall into a few categories:
22:37:35 <elliott> (1) PoppaVic saying something incoherent as usual
22:37:50 <elliott> (2) LIBC.SO HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH C, WE EXECUTE C ON PURE PLATONIC MEDIUMS DISTINCT FROM ANY COMPUTER, YOU ARE EVIL NON-PORTABLE NON-C FUCK!!
22:38:10 <elliott> (4) This is a channel to flame^Wdiscuss C, stop bringing the level of discourse down, you monkey-shitting fucknuts!
22:38:23 <elliott> But mostly, PoppaVic saying something incoherent.
22:40:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:40:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
22:42:29 <nescience> actually, nth permutation is not computationally hard, that must not be what held me up
22:42:50 <nescience> hm, I guess it would be summing the number of values in each permutation
22:43:30 <nescience> along with deriving how many combinations of symbol lengths fit into N characters
22:43:59 <elliott> Prof. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. First Last
22:44:05 <nescience> probably fast enough to use in C but not mirc script
22:45:24 <nescience> Dr Dr Dr Dr Dr Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo......
22:48:48 <nescience> I am imagining this to the tune of BADGER BADGER
22:51:06 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:51:49 -!- cheater00 has joined.
22:55:03 <oerjan> nescience: YOU ARE INSUFFICIENTLY MYNDZI
22:55:46 <nescience> of course my phone doesn't run mirc scripts
22:57:20 <nescience> it would be kind of amusing to have a different script that put like, two more beneath him like acrobats :P
22:57:43 <nescience> but it'd get me kicked from everywhere surely
22:57:46 <oerjan> ...just beware of loops
23:00:01 <elliott> "Nicholas If-Jesus-Christ-Had-Not-Died-For-Thee-Thou-Hadst-Been-Damned Barbon" BEST NAME EVER
23:00:10 <elliott> "His unusual middle name, given to him by his strongly Puritan father, is an example of the religious "slogan names" given in Puritan families in 17th-century England."
23:00:27 <elliott> "Nicholas Barbon was the eldest son of Praise-God Barebone (or Barbon), after whom the Barebone's Parliament of 1653—the predecessor of Oliver Cromwell's Protectorate—was named.[1][2] Praise-God's reputed Christian name was "Unless-Jesus-Christ-Had-Died-For-Thee-Thou-Hadst-Been-Damned",[2] a variant of his son's middle name. He became a religious separatist with Millenarianist beliefs, with fervent views in favour of infant baptism in particu
23:02:41 <nescience> I think "hadst" is improper grammar there?
23:03:25 <elliott> I just hope everyone referred to him by his full name.
23:03:35 <elliott> "Hi there, Nicholas If-Jesus-Christ-Had-Not-Died-For-Thee-Thou-Hadst-Been-Damned Barbon!"
23:03:41 <elliott> (started typing that out but then gave up and copy-pasted)
23:03:51 -!- nescience has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:05:13 * oerjan thinks "hadst" is correct
23:05:36 -!- nescience has joined.
23:05:45 <oerjan> * oerjan thinks "hadst" is correct
23:06:11 <oerjan> "Additional archaic forms are second-person singular present tense hast and second-person singular past tense hadst or haddest."
23:07:10 <oerjan> If-Jesus-Christ-Had-Not-Died-For-Thee-Thou-Hadst-Been-Damned
23:07:30 <nescience> what it is supposed to be is "would have been"
23:07:43 <nescience> which, without thinking overmuch, should be would hadst
23:07:54 * oerjan swats nescience -----###
23:08:15 <oerjan> you don't put hadst instead of an _infinitive_!
23:08:17 <nescience> but I'm not sure, that cdoesn't sound quite right either
23:08:52 <elliott> nescience: logs are in topic
23:08:59 <oerjan> it could be archaic grammar as well - "hadde ... hadde" is completely correct in norwegian
23:09:07 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:09:15 <elliott> hadst is archaic anywhere :D
23:09:28 <Sgeo> Kubuntu is once again working as an equal OS on my laptop.
23:09:37 <Sgeo> However, it's unusable: No battery meter
23:09:38 <oerjan> elliott: i mean not needing "would have" for the consequence part
23:10:48 <oerjan> Hadde jeg hatt den hatten jeg hadde, så hadde jeg hatt hatt.
23:11:01 <nescience> I'm drawing a blank her cause I'm at work and can't think about it
23:11:10 <oerjan> (If i'd had the hat i had, then i would have had (a) hat)
23:12:29 <elliott> olsner: there's a strange bug in my forth code :)
23:12:34 <elliott> it's close to being able to run a primitive word...
23:13:02 <elliott> olsner: specifically, the screen background is purple. i am unable to ascertain why.
23:13:32 <elliott> so, er, i wonder if my packing is right
23:13:48 <elliott> by packing five bits of ascii-64
23:13:57 <elliott> and shifting the value left by 5 bits each time
23:15:12 <olsner> now you should change it so the background is intentionally purple
23:16:18 <elliott> olsner: yeah, purple is a nice colour
23:17:13 <elliott> Wow at the SumatraPDF installer.
23:17:54 <Gregor> If Ulrich Drepper has a bid in on libc.so, my fund to get libc.so itself could get a boon from the "prevent Ulrich Drepper from getting libc.so" crowd :P
23:18:23 <elliott> Gregor: Likelihood of him having a bid on that: -1
23:19:09 <Gregor> I'd say it's extremely unlikely, but not THAT unlikely. It has not actually violated the rules of probability theory with its unlikelihood.
23:20:07 <oerjan> elliott: don't be so negative
23:20:15 <elliott> oerjan: I'M ABSOLUTELY NOT
23:24:14 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:27:04 <elliott> Cool, Apple now charge people for the privilege of programming their own computer.
23:27:21 <elliott> (OK, so Python and Ruby and whatnot come by default, but the C compiler (i.e. Xcode) costs money.)
23:27:27 <elliott> Well. The Mac Shit Store version does.
23:27:32 <elliott> Perhaps there's some other way to download it.
23:27:48 <elliott> Apple have moved from jerks to insidious, especially considering the iPad's utter unprogrammability.
23:28:14 <elliott> Gregor: To be fair, Microsoft does this too. :p
23:28:22 <elliott> But I don't know of any third-party gcc distribution as popular as MinGW.
23:28:37 <Gregor> Errr, wait, I thought MS had some free "Express" version?
23:28:46 <elliott> Hmm, right, it does; it's terrible, of course, but yes.
23:28:54 <elliott> Apple: WORSE THAN MICROSOFT
23:28:55 <Gregor> XCode is terrible too :P
23:28:55 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:29:01 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:29:01 <elliott> Gregor: Xcode is just the vehicle to get gcc :P
23:29:07 <elliott> Microsoft don't have the decency to give you even gcc.
23:29:09 <elliott> What happened to the days where C64s booted up to BASIC prompts, that's what I want to know. :/
23:29:14 <Gregor> Well yeah, but XCode itself is abysmally bad.
23:29:55 <elliott> Gregor: I dunno... compare with Visual Studio...
23:30:03 <elliott> (OK, I jest, Visual Studio is actually pretty advanced :P)
23:30:13 <elliott> Gregor: P.S. It's Xcode, lowercase c.
23:30:21 <elliott> Think Xbox, another retardedly-capitalised product.
23:30:24 <Sgeo> Mnesia sounds fascinating
23:31:52 <elliott> Meanwhile, lol wat: http://notes.kateva.org/2007/01/sarbanes-oxley-means-no-features-in.html
23:31:56 <elliott> variable: Ouch! You've corrupted my memory!
23:31:59 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
23:32:16 <fizzie> variable: Careful, you'll change your display border color accidentally.
23:33:50 <Gregor> variable: Donate to the Help Gregor Get libc.so Fund!
23:33:55 <elliott> "Microsoft charges $549 for Visual Studio Pro, but at least you can get the command-line compilers and Windows API bindings for free as part of the Windows SDK."
23:34:03 <elliott> Heyho, a terrible compiler sans the IDE.
23:34:08 <variable> Gregor: and who are you bidding against!?
23:34:15 <Gregor> variable: TBD, but any donated money will be returned if I don't get it; it's a closed auction.
23:34:19 <Gregor> Twelve anonymous bidders.
23:35:43 <variable> Gregor: my budget atm is $0 :-\
23:36:10 <Gregor> How's your budget on the 28th look? X-P
23:36:16 <Gregor> (That's when the auction actually opens)
23:36:56 -!- cheater- has joined.
23:37:52 -!- nescience has quit (Quit: -a-).
23:40:05 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:43:50 <elliott> hmm, what was that insane scientific programming langauge again
23:50:48 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:53:59 <elliott> Video: Visual COBOL Launch – technical demo
23:53:59 <elliott> See what excited the COBOL world this January. The demo shows how to build COBOL applications within VS2010, and Eclipse IDEs integrating with .NET and other UI technologies… and much more, including COBOL applications running on an Android phone!
23:55:07 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
23:55:58 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
00:00:19 <Sgeo> elliott, just pretend I never took any interest in COBOL.
00:00:29 <elliott> oerjan: do you just make up puns all day, say yes
00:03:06 <oerjan> i also sometimes eat and drink
00:04:37 <elliott> oerjan: HOW OFTEN, COMPARED TO PUNNING, ON AVERAGE, WOULD YOU SAY
00:05:06 <elliott> "Somewhere in the region of... zero, perhaps?"
00:05:17 <oerjan> NO A BIT HIGHER THAN THAT
00:05:37 <oerjan> well depends on region size, i guess
00:06:40 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:16:47 <elliott> oerjan: what is it with the french? i ask you.
00:17:26 <Gregor> WHY IS HONEY NOT SWEET
00:17:33 <Gregor> I've been lied to my whole life!
00:17:36 <elliott> Gregor: Too busy being delicious.
00:17:47 <Gregor> Even when I eat honey it's lying to me, it pretends to be sweet BUT IT'S NOT
00:18:58 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
00:19:05 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +o Gregor.
00:19:26 <Gregor> elliott: Now unban me from #esoteric-minecraft or I ban you from #esoteric :P
00:19:33 <elliott> Gregor: You're banned in -minecraft??
00:19:41 <elliott> Wait, did my unban not work? X-D
00:19:49 <elliott> * #esoteric-minecraft Banlist: Wed Mar 9 05:25:36 *!*Gregor@*.org elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott
00:20:22 -!- Gregor has set channel mode: +b honey!*@beehive.insectopia.us.
00:20:32 <elliott> Gregor: Just stay being an op.
00:20:43 <elliott> Knowing that someone who isn't a weirdo is an op.
00:21:05 <elliott> Hmm, banning feels an awful lot like swatting.
00:21:59 <elliott> HAH. Tunes does the exact same memory-disk unification as me.
00:22:10 <elliott> I have this horrible feeling that all my ideas have been previously invented during Tunes.
00:22:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:25:22 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b noteda*!*@174.122.*.
00:25:42 <oerjan> a spammer from a while ago
00:25:49 <elliott> I don't suppose you're gonna solve the persistent problem :-P
00:26:34 <oerjan> there are all these bans that are so old i have no idea who they are
00:26:57 <elliott> perfect time to start anew, with fresh, exciting, relevant, modern bans.
00:27:27 <elliott> well a few should probably stay. some i don't quite understand.
00:27:32 <elliott> * #esoteric Banlist: Wed Jan 19 06:33:28 *!*@unaffiliated/reikon sendak.freenode.net
00:27:55 <elliott> oerjan: the person who Quadrescence bought in to taunt fax for ~a whole day
00:28:08 <elliott> which ended up having about 90% of the trolling getting trolled for ridiculous hours until i convinced you to ban them both.
00:28:11 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*@unaffiliated/reikon.
00:28:17 <elliott> but then dixon appealed on quad's behalf. but quad is now gone now. so there should be no problem.
00:28:55 <elliott> oerjan: Libster was the guy who (pathetically, admittedly) tried trolling us for like a few days. unlikely to return.
00:29:07 <elliott> the .mx one looks like an anti-spam one. I suspect the "email" ones too
00:29:35 <elliott> /home/elliott/esotericlogs/07.08.20:21:40:24 --- join: darfur (n=darfur@c-24-11-26-71.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) joined #esoteric
00:29:35 <elliott> /home/elliott/esotericlogs/07.08.20:22:16:02 --- mode: lament set +b *!*n=darfur@*.hsd1.mi.comcast.net
00:29:45 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*Libster@*.bltmmd.east.verizon.net.
00:29:50 <elliott> after being an irritating cock
00:29:57 <elliott> 21:43:55 <darfur> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
00:29:57 <elliott> 21:43:58 <Conceptual> Could someone please ask someone to repeat this request?
00:29:57 <elliott> (about 100 repetitions of this)
00:30:10 <elliott> oh, and a full recital of 99 bottles of beer triggered by him.
00:30:24 <elliott> 22:17:08 <oerjan> i see i just escaped the action.
00:30:24 <elliott> 22:17:13 --- mode: lament set -o lament
00:30:24 <elliott> 22:17:24 <oerjan> makes the logs rather quick to read...
00:30:24 <elliott> 22:20:20 * lament blows the smoke off the tip of the gun and puts the gun back into the belt
00:30:24 <elliott> 22:21:51 <lament> putting retards out of their misery since 2007
00:30:25 <elliott> 22:23:21 * oerjan cunningly detects a ddarius inspiration
00:30:50 <elliott> /home/elliott/esotericlogs/10.10.16:19:46:40 --- join: hyper_cube (4859958e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.89.149.142) joined #esoteric
00:30:50 <elliott> /home/elliott/esotericlogs/10.10.16:19:57:31 --- mode: oerjan set +b *!*4859958e@*.72.89.149.142
00:30:54 <elliott> that was Sgeo's beyond-retarded pal.
00:31:15 <elliott> oerjan: EXCUSE ME I AM DOING YOUR RESEARCH FOR YOU?
00:31:48 <elliott> sheesh, fuckin' rude ops these days
00:32:00 <elliott> oerjan: the shutup@ bans, those are all mistakes, absolutely
00:32:06 <elliott> you should remove all of them. now.
00:32:49 <elliott> he was the ghetto-speak guy
00:32:58 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*darfur@*.hsd1.mi.comcast.net.
00:33:24 <elliott> /home/elliott/esotericlogs/07.08.19:13:19:57 --- join: Conceptual (n=Conceptu@d14-69-59-38.try.wideopenwest.com) joined #esoteric
00:33:24 <elliott> /home/elliott/esotericlogs/07.08.20:21:39:17 --- join: Conceptual (n=Conceptu@d14-69-59-38.try.wideopenwest.com) joined #esoteric
00:33:24 <elliott> /home/elliott/esotericlogs/07.08.20:22:16:43 --- mode: lament set +b *!*@d14-69-59-38.try.wideopenwest.com
00:34:06 <elliott> 17:24:23 <lament> smuckers: so, please explain why you insist on vandalizing our wiki.
00:34:06 <elliott> 17:25:00 <smuckers> intense boredom
00:34:12 <elliott> maybe leave that ban there :)
00:34:25 <elliott> 17:25:19 <FunnyMan3595> smuckers: And vandalism helps?
00:34:26 <elliott> 17:25:36 <smuckers> no, i still feel so empty inside
00:34:26 <elliott> 17:26:01 <bsmntbombdood> maybe a cock in you would fill you up
00:34:33 <elliott> #ESOTERIC, THE HOME OF GOOD ADVICE
00:34:53 <elliott> that's the same as the other email guy
00:35:04 <elliott> bsmntbombdood: hi. we're cleaning out the ban list.
00:36:27 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*4859958e@*.72.89.149.142.
00:37:01 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*@67.15.72.46.
00:38:26 <oerjan> i have this strange intuition not to unban that wideopenwest guy, so i won't.
00:38:46 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:39:38 <elliott> oerjan: but how will you ever gauge the accuracy of your intuition if you don't test it?
00:39:51 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
00:41:17 <elliott> oerjan: I think I've found the source of Unlambda's perversity.
00:41:25 <elliott> "I believe (though Faré disagrees) the starting point for Tunes should be Hurd+Guile."
00:41:56 <oerjan> ...what does that have to do with unlambda? oh hm.
00:47:11 <elliott> hmm, how does one express the iota combinator with SKI?
00:48:59 <oerjan> specifically, the iota combinator
00:49:19 <elliott> oerjan: as seen in the language ``Iota''
00:49:27 <elliott> coming to a Chris Barker near you
00:49:41 <elliott> the simplest definition would be nice :p
00:49:46 <elliott> (i.e. one that reduces to xSK almost directly...)
00:50:36 <elliott> S(SI(KS))(KK)x -> (SI(KS))x(KKx)
00:50:45 <elliott> S(SI(KS))(KK)x -> SI(KS)x(KKx) ->
00:51:07 <elliott> S(SI(KS))(KK)x -> SI(KS)x(KKx) -> Ix((KS)x)(KKx)
00:51:12 <elliott> S(SI(KS))(KK)x -> SI(KS)x(KKx) -> Ix((KS)x)(KKx) -> x((KS)x)(KKx)
00:51:18 <elliott> S(SI(KS))(KK)x -> SI(KS)x(KKx) -> Ix((KS)x)(KKx) -> x((KS)x)(KKx) -> xSK
00:51:31 <elliott> oerjan: (Writing a Lazy K implementation; having Iota would be inelegant!)
00:52:41 <elliott> oerjan: actually I can't really figure out a "clean" way to do Lazy K in Haskell, the "FFI" so-to-speak between the lazy k and the Haskell to generate the list of church numerals seems difficult to do elegantly
00:53:46 <oerjan> well you don't have to express them directly in SKI...
00:53:57 <elliott> oerjan: yes, but the point is that I don't want to have to pattern-match or whatever
00:53:59 <elliott> I want to be able to write
00:54:29 <elliott> unlist f = f (\x y -> x : unlist y)
00:54:58 <elliott> oerjan: I suppose I could do
00:55:11 <elliott> data Foo = Fun (Foo -> Foo) | Int Integer | List [Foo]
00:55:21 <elliott> oerjan: but the issue with that is that each parameter would have to know how to operate on Ints, etc.
00:55:21 <oerjan> you need at least a newtype wrapper...
00:55:44 <elliott> i.e. what's the result of S (List []) (Int 4) (List [Int 3])?
00:57:09 <oerjan> maybe something higher-rank...
00:57:39 <elliott> oerjan: define "higher-rank" :P
00:57:45 <oerjan> the types get in the way there...
00:58:21 <elliott> oerjan: I suppose I could do "data Foo = Fun (Foo -> Foo) | YouCan'tApplyThatLol Foo Foo | ValueThings" where the middle one is generated when trying to apply non-functions
00:58:24 <elliott> but that seems awfully hacky
00:59:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:00:37 -!- copumpkin has joined.
01:04:46 <elliott> oerjan: Wanna elaborate on that higher-rank remar? :P
01:05:09 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
01:05:32 <oerjan> i'm not sure that actually would help
01:06:02 <oerjan> the thing is there is nothing in the type of a combinator that tells whether it actually _should_ be usable as a number
01:06:13 <elliott> oerjan: hmm, I think the key in
01:06:16 <elliott> <elliott> unchurch f = f (+1) 0
01:06:17 <elliott> <elliott> unlist f = f (\x y -> x : unlist y)
01:06:21 <elliott> is that you _never_ apply them to anything else
01:06:28 <elliott> so all you need is something like
01:06:51 <oerjan> i mean you have no way to know whether you pass it an f that would try to apply (+1) to S, or something
01:07:07 <elliott> you can just error out when applying an int or whatever... I _think_
01:07:20 <elliott> oerjan: in fact I think that's what a Scheme implementation would do
01:07:26 <elliott> (representing them as pure lambdas
01:07:35 <elliott> -> if it applies the 0, fail
01:07:39 <elliott> -> if it applies the 1+ to a function, fail
01:07:52 <elliott> but it would be nice if _everything_ could evaluate without error
01:07:58 <elliott> (you could just infiniloop, but that's chetaing)
01:08:09 <elliott> because from an LC point of view, you can treat a piece of data as anything you want
01:08:13 <elliott> functions all have infinite arguments :)
01:08:32 <elliott> oerjan: btw your swattage is required: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:FireFly/Enterbrainfuck&action=history
01:09:30 <elliott> whoa, jwz moved off livejournal
01:10:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
01:10:39 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Changing host).
01:10:39 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
01:18:06 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
01:18:08 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
01:30:30 <elliott> I wonder if implementing the underlying @ objects on top of an existing system would be useful for prototyping the higher-level materials before porting the lower-level ones to x86-64.
01:34:36 -!- augur has joined.
01:40:05 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
01:41:29 -!- augur has joined.
01:41:45 -!- Slereah has quit.
01:41:56 <elliott> pikhq_: I HIRE YOU TO WORK ON @.
01:42:01 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
01:47:54 -!- pikhq has joined.
01:48:12 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
01:48:13 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
02:08:26 <elliott> pikhq: Did you say RTK2 was any good or not? ...or was it the kana volume that's no good
02:08:36 <elliott> Ah, RTK2 looks Chinese-focused.
02:19:02 <elliott> olsner: is "call [di]" actually ok?
02:19:08 <elliott> i.e. di contains the address of a subroutine to call
02:22:45 <elliott> i should probably set up a stack before trying to call
02:22:47 <elliott> except it's working anyway
02:26:26 <pikhq> elliott: RTK2 is the reading volume, and it's not really worth it.
02:26:43 <elliott> pikhq: What would you suggest as a substitute?
02:27:01 <elliott> I'm intending to buy RTK1 and 3 (together to help shipping costs) at least.
02:27:30 <pikhq> elliott: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/about/overview-page
02:27:41 <elliott> pikhq: YOUR DEFLECTION IS SO DEFLECTY, MY FRIEND.
02:27:57 <pikhq> elliott: "Learn to read aloud 10,000 gramatically correct, native-like Japanese sentences/phrases (confession: I only learned ~7500 in the 18-month period, but you are better than me).
02:28:14 <pikhq> There. That'll do it.
02:28:34 <elliott> pikhq: Yeeees... but that doesn't exactly help.
02:28:47 <elliott> "To learn Japanese, learn Japanese." "Okay, how?" "By taking actions such that you will learn Japanese."
02:29:03 <Sgeo> That sounds like a very zz038 thing
02:29:35 <elliott> pikhq: I HOPE YOU CAN SEE THE ISSUE HERE.
02:31:15 <pikhq> elliott: I suggest you simply straight-up start learning Japanese after RTK1, rather than brute-forcing vague rules for how to remember one of the readings for the kanji.
02:31:30 <pikhq> You'll get the readings without much work, trust me.
02:31:50 <elliott> pikhq: Staring at a bunch of kanji won't magically impart upon me the ability to read them, unless I either have a defective definition of "read", or the human brain has magical powers.
02:33:06 <elliott> pikhq: Define "read", maybe I'm misunderstanding.
02:34:12 <pikhq> elliott: Basically, I am suggesting you do as Khatzumoto did: pick a sentence. Learn how to read it. Learn enough to understand it. Be sure to be able to write it. Stick it in your SRS. Repeat.
02:34:51 <elliott> pikhq: "Stick it in your SRS" -- this requires the ability to type Japanese text on the computer, which AFAIK involves knowing the readings; do you propose I pick characters out from a map?
02:35:25 <pikhq> elliott: First, after *not very long* you will know *a* reading for most of the kanji. Second, http://jisho.org/kanji/radicals/
02:35:40 <pikhq> elliott: Third, have a text file containing Heisig keywords & kanji.
02:35:53 <pikhq> elliott: Fourth, there's some site that lets you draw a kanji and it'll try to OCR it.
02:36:25 <pikhq> elliott: Fifth, if it's on the web you can copy-paste. Sixth, dude step two is "learn how to read it".
02:37:01 <elliott> pikhq: (1) By what logic? Like I said, *I am not going to learn readings just by staring at kanji*. (2) Yes, a friend pointed me to this; it looks quite nice, but I wouldn't want to write out an entire sentence like that. (3) That sounds nice; wonder if there are any available to download, since I'm lazy. (4) Fair enough; still sounds tedious, though. (5) True. (6) How -- magic? I'm asking for *resources* here.
02:37:23 <pikhq> elliott: You look them up.
02:37:28 <elliott> You're answering "so how should I learn the readings?" with "Loop: learn a reading. Repeat." which is not helpful.
02:37:48 <elliott> <pikhq> elliott: You look them up. ;; Where? jisho.org?
02:37:55 <pikhq> Among other things, sure.
02:38:09 <pikhq> The thing is, RTK2-ing things is not going to help you much.
02:38:12 <elliott> pikhq: "Among other things" -- I'm explicitly asking for resources here.
02:38:30 <pikhq> elliott: jisho.org is the one I usually use.
02:38:44 <elliott> http://jisho.org/kanji/details/%E6%9B%B8 ;; picking at random, the "Readings" section here does not include a Japanese entry. Am I looking in the wrong place, or does this kanji not have a reading or something? (I literally picked at random.)
02:38:54 <elliott> (And have, of course, very little idea what I am talking about.
02:39:06 * Sgeo WTFs at Weebls-stuff's Owls song
02:39:14 <elliott> Or are the Chinese readings the relevant ones?
02:39:19 <pikhq> elliott: Look at "Japanese kun" and "Japanese on".
02:39:41 <elliott> pikhq: Need I learn both, or is one vastly more useful than the other?
02:39:58 <pikhq> You will *undoubtedly* learn both.
02:40:28 <pikhq> Kun readings are used primarily for words of native Japanese origin, and on primarily for Chinese origin words.
02:40:34 <pikhq> And both are *extremely* common.
02:40:48 <pikhq> And RTK2 only covers the on readings.
02:41:03 <pikhq> Actually, only *one* on reading per character; some have multiple.
02:41:07 <elliott> pikhq: So is there a pre-available text file of Heisig's readings and the kanji? Entering that sounds like a bitch because of the aforementioned can't-fucking-type-it problem.
02:41:25 <pikhq> Lemme find a nice one for you.
02:41:27 <elliott> Also, are IMEs based on the kun or the on? Please forgive my stupid questions.
02:41:54 <pikhq> IMEs are based on whichever reading is appropriate in context.
02:42:09 <elliott> pikhq: Now would be a bad time to mention that I fucking hate context.
02:42:10 <pikhq> You just type in how it would actually be said, and it figures it out.
02:42:23 <elliott> It occurs to me that I have a trouble committing to any long-term endeavour unless I know all the steps beforehand. :p
02:44:07 <pikhq> http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/data/Heisig_complete_v3.rtf Annoyingly, it's RTF.
02:44:58 <pikhq> But includes the keywords, stories when available, and relevant kun readings.
02:46:05 <pikhq> As for learning how things work based on context: the human brain is magic.
02:47:30 <copumpkin> pikhq: holy shit, that's all the characters and stories?
02:47:54 <copumpkin> he only includes the first 500 or so?
02:48:13 <pikhq> The RTK Yahoo! group.
02:48:35 <copumpkin> what's the license on that? and are the first 500 or so stories heisig's or theirs?
02:49:01 <elliott> Come on, all it needs is "<kanji> <mnemonics>".
02:49:03 <pikhq> Could probably find another one containing the same info, buut that's the first one I found, and it seems decent.
02:49:21 <elliott> Oh yay, it's in a retarded format so I'll have to convert it specially to get something greppable.
02:50:09 <elliott> pikhq: Wouldn't it be far more effective to have a file with _just_ the mnemonics without the flavour text, so that one can grep the memorised mnemonics to get the kanji...? >_<
02:50:10 -!- augur has joined.
02:50:54 <pikhq> elliott: Probably?
02:51:20 <elliott> pikhq: Just thinking that there's no computerised way to go from list of mnemonics --> kanji character.
02:51:22 <pikhq> elliott: I think you could tell Anki to export a CSV containing just the kanji & mnemonics values from the RTK deck you have.
02:51:38 <elliott> It'd be nice if those post-500 stories were included in the book, too. :p
02:55:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:57:03 -!- SimonRC has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
02:57:47 <elliott> pikhq: So in summary, all I need to buy is RTK1&3 and if I'm feeling TOTALLY EXTRAVAGANT, RTKana.
02:57:58 <pikhq> elliott: RTK3 isn't even all that necessary.
02:58:15 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but I might be able to save on shipping costs if I buy both together, and I might as well get it.
02:58:25 <oerjan> <elliott> It occurs to me that I have a trouble committing to any long-term endeavour unless I know all the steps beforehand. :p <-- well you're not alone :)
02:58:40 <pikhq> And you'll probably be making extensive use of BitTorrent.
02:58:45 <elliott> yeah, oerjan refused to be born until the whole process was explained to him
02:58:52 <elliott> "so after I get my Ph.D., what then?"
02:58:57 <elliott> "You know what, fuck you, you're going in."
02:59:07 <elliott> ...and that's why oerjan is spending his days in here!
02:59:12 * elliott prepares for extreme swattage.
02:59:17 <elliott> Swattage of a kind never seen before.
02:59:41 <elliott> oerjan: STOP STARING AT ME IT'S WORSE THAN SWATTING.
02:59:49 <elliott> Gregor: BAN HIM IF HE DOESN'T STOP STARING AT ME
03:00:41 <elliott> Clearly oerjan's connection has died.
03:01:07 <oerjan> elliott: THAT EXPLAINS SO MUCH
03:01:15 <elliott> oerjan: took you a while to type that
03:01:33 <oerjan> i was in the backscroll
03:01:33 <elliott> oerjan: see the rest of us did it the smart way, we just asked for the instruction manual.
03:02:56 <elliott> > length "87E55BFF3787E5C3" `div` 2
03:05:02 -!- augur has joined.
03:05:11 <elliott> hmm, so about five bytes of overhead
03:06:27 -!- SimonRC has joined.
03:07:39 <elliott> quick! what do I call >r and r> if I have no > :P
03:07:48 <elliott> I could do to_r but that's boring
03:08:24 <elliott> eh, tor and fromr are good enough
03:11:06 <elliott> I should probably implement integer literals at some point
03:11:58 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, one other source for readings.
03:12:16 <pikhq> elliott: Material intended for children and/or learners of Japanese has furigana.
03:12:31 <elliott> Furigana looks TOTES BORING though.
03:12:37 <pikhq> (furigana, BTW, is where the reading of kanji is written beside or above the kanji, depending on writing orientation)
03:12:46 <Sgeo> What're >r and r>?
03:13:39 <elliott> "In Japan, by law, newspapers using kanji outside the jōyō kanji list must annotate them with furigana."
03:13:49 <elliott> Is Japan just trying to make things really easy for foreigners or something?
03:14:18 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:14:59 <pikhq> That practice started before Japan had a high level of literacy in the population.
03:15:04 <elliott> "Hiragana are sometimes used to write words which would normally written with katakana to make them appear more "feminine", particularly in comic books and cartoons for young girls." --omniglot.com
03:15:11 <elliott> Well there's the stupidest idea I've ever heard right there.
03:15:25 <pikhq> And wrong, anyways.
03:15:43 <pikhq> Writing in all-hiragana just seems a bit childish.
03:15:57 <pikhq> Because, well, how many kanji do kids know, anyways?
03:16:14 <elliott> 348957938457348957983457834975983457
03:17:28 <elliott> pikhq: IT'S A FACTUAL FIGURE.
03:19:51 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:20:02 <elliott> "Often the speed advantage of C/C++ (as well as the relative portability) out-weighs the use of other languages."
03:20:10 <elliott> I wish this myth of speed would die.
03:20:50 <elliott> pikhq: JOIN ME IN PURGING THE WORLD OF MYTHOLOGY.
03:21:47 <Sgeo> elliott, myth of "speed" being so important, or is C/C++ not relatively fast for similar straightforward code? Can you please explain the latter? (I grok the former)
03:23:42 -!- jcp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:31:26 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
03:31:38 <Gregor> The myths w.r.t. speed have a lot more to do with slowness of other language than speed of C.
03:32:36 <elliott> Gregor: Except that other languages *aren't* slow; other languages are *slower*.
03:32:44 <elliott> (Ignoring Ruby and the like, which really are just slow.)
03:33:05 <elliott> Gregor: Well, so it's not valid.
03:33:31 <elliott> Gregor: Especially considering that in any "modern" OS, a program's time is spent in something like 100% syscalls (rounding up from 99.9%)
03:33:40 -!- jcp has joined.
03:33:42 <elliott> Which is, of course, why @ has syscall inlining. :p
03:33:45 <Gregor> Depends on the program, but yeah, that's true, and people don't realize that :P
03:33:58 <elliott> THE JOYS OF RUNNING EVERYTHING IN RING 0
03:35:13 <Gregor> STILL ACCEPTING LIBC.SO DONATIONS
03:36:34 <Sgeo> Gregor, have you received any donations?
03:37:05 <Sgeo> Did you count self-donations in that?
03:37:16 <Gregor> Self-donations aren't donations.
03:38:19 <elliott> EXPERT RESEARCHERS HAVE DISCOVERED THE ONE THING THAT WILL RESURRECT THE ADVICE ANIMALS MEME'S FUNNINESS.
03:38:30 <elliott> I've invented a completely revolutionary form of breakfast technology
03:39:34 <oerjan> elliott: extra points if you manage to get the real wolfram to sue
03:39:46 <elliott> "I took a dump today and it was shaped like a möbius strip
03:39:52 <elliott> oerjan: THIS HAS SO MUCH POTENTIAL.
03:39:58 <elliott> "In 1876, Alexander Graham Bell invented the telephone
03:39:58 <elliott> And that's why I'm a genius"
03:40:27 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
03:42:12 <elliott> "Here's the simplest universal Turing machine
03:42:12 <elliott> Discovered by the most advanced intellect on the planet"
03:48:03 <elliott> "Oh, hi, Reverend! Want a cup of tea?
03:50:10 <elliott> Hmmhmm, in a perl -ne '...' a b c invocation, is there a way to get at the current filename?
03:54:11 <elliott> oerjan: doesn't that just give the first filename?
03:54:14 <elliott> or are they actually popped off?
03:54:18 <elliott> also, oerjan knows perl? :)
03:54:26 <oerjan> $ARGV contains the name of the current file when reading from <>.
03:54:32 <oerjan> i know how to do man perlvar
03:56:30 <elliott> so oerjan, if you're so smart, how do I print a variable quoted (i.e. with " escaped) >:)
03:57:15 * oerjan switches to man perlfunc
03:57:42 <elliott> You kids and your fancy manpages.
03:57:45 <elliott> Back in my day, we just asked oerjan.
03:58:37 <oerjan> print "\Q$VAR"; possibly
03:59:01 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:59:03 <elliott> \Q$VAR\E for longer things, it seems
03:59:04 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:59:13 <elliott> seems to escape an awful lot, though :)
03:59:18 <elliott> seems to be intended for regexps
03:59:37 <elliott> it even escapes spaces X_X
04:00:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
04:01:05 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 195M 2011-03-10 04:41 esoteric.pl
04:01:08 <elliott> don't let the extension fool you
04:01:16 <elliott> now to feed it into gprolog and hope it doesn't die.
04:01:30 <elliott> oerjan: \Q is way too overzealous :P
04:03:41 <oerjan> yeah it just uses perl's simple backslashing rule
04:06:20 <elliott> oerjan: WELL MAYBE I DON'T WANT A SIMPLE RULE
04:06:22 <elliott> MAYBE I WANT A CLEVER RULE
04:06:38 <oerjan> then write a substitution. i hear perl is good for that.
04:08:03 <elliott> oerjan: Your snarkiness is unmatched, bro.
04:08:52 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
04:10:07 -!- azaq23 has joined.
04:10:49 <elliott> pikhq: Tomorrow I'll buy RTK1&3, I think.
04:11:41 <Gregor> pikhq: DONATE TO DA LIBC.SO FUND DOIT
04:12:31 <elliott> WHAT ARE THE VALID STRING ESCAPES IN PROLOG BITCHES
04:12:37 <elliott> THAT'S WHAT I BITCHINGLY ASK YOU
04:15:18 <pikhq> elliott: It's not always true that a program spends 100% of its time in syscalls.
04:15:26 <pikhq> Just true for some 99% of the programs people care about.
04:15:41 <elliott> 100% of programs spend 100% of their time in syscalls.
04:15:48 <elliott> And 100% of the time spent in syscalls is spent waiting for IO.
04:16:46 <oerjan> the world of computing is waiting for the new supercomputer optimized for waiting
04:19:56 <elliott> ugh, all i want to do is query #esoteric with prolog :)
04:22:13 <elliott> whoa, gwern used to be in here
04:25:11 <elliott> 17:42:39 <ehird> there's an O(n) one for base-16 isn't there?
04:25:11 <elliott> 17:44:12 <pikhq> No, from what I understand O(n^2) is the best one.
04:25:11 <elliott> 17:44:21 <pikhq> (for finding arbitrary digits)
04:25:19 <elliott> am i misinterpreting this or was 2009-pikhq MISINFORMED
04:25:56 <elliott> 18:32:36 * pikhq wishes that getting a digit of pi were a function of the previous digits
04:25:59 <elliott> It's a function of the position :P
04:26:09 <pikhq> That was *really* stupid.
04:26:19 <elliott> Yeah. You were pretty much the WORST!
04:26:45 <oerjan> well blaim it on his youth
04:27:14 * oerjan blames his spelling on senile old age
04:27:16 <elliott> i used to think pikhq was like 24
04:27:46 <elliott> but Gregor was older than i expected, at 30
04:30:26 <lambdabot> "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *E...
04:30:39 <lambdabot> *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Ex...
04:30:59 <elliott> first time show has ever REMOVED a quote :)
04:31:37 <oerjan> lessee that probably defaults to () inside...
04:32:00 <oerjan> show . error is obviously a string
04:32:12 <elliott> oerjan: show . error just time limits, though
04:32:19 <elliott> (fix error) afaict should not output "
04:32:23 <oerjan> yes i'm just wondering why
04:32:26 <elliott> unless error's return value is defaulting to string
04:32:31 <lambdabot> against inferred type `[GHC.Types...
04:32:41 <oerjan> elliott: i think lambdabot does something special with errors
04:32:47 <elliott> because fix is (a -> a) -> a
04:32:52 <elliott> so it goes to show the string
04:33:04 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:33:54 -!- wareya has joined.
04:33:55 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:57:39 -!- asiekierka has joined.
04:58:18 <pikhq> *Gaaah*, US immigration.
04:58:26 <pikhq> We have a quota of 700,000 per year. Total.
04:58:37 <pikhq> 50,000 of that is divided out in a lottery. Literally a lottery.
04:59:27 <pikhq> 40,000 is for people with advanced degrees.
05:00:48 -!- wth has joined.
05:03:23 -!- wth has left (?).
05:04:58 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
05:11:07 -!- wth has joined.
05:14:33 -!- wth has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:26:48 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
05:29:47 <oklopol> the last 6 nights, i have had a dream containing exactly one person i know, in all cases they have done something that is just slightly not characteristic to them
05:34:08 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
05:34:30 <oklopol> and does elliott want to learn japanese? that sounds crazy
05:40:12 <pikhq> oklopol: Quite honestly, I'll be pleasantly surprised if he keeps it up for a week.
05:42:55 <oklopol> well i find the wanting interesting
05:46:27 <oklopol> i couldn't manually start obsessions in his age either, or at least the skill started developing thereabouts
05:51:53 <oklopol> is 700,000 very little? you have what 500 million people or what?
05:52:52 <oklopol> i wish there was a webpage where you could look this stuff up
05:54:39 <pikhq> 700,000 is freaking tiny.
05:55:09 <pikhq> We have 308 million people.
05:55:14 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
05:55:39 <oklopol> i suppose they don't want to ruin your pure american blood
05:55:49 <pikhq> It's even worse when you consider that a *gigantic* chunk of those you basically get for luck.
05:56:06 <pikhq> The easiest way to immigrate, though, is to marry an American.
05:56:15 <pikhq> You immediately get permanent residency.
05:56:21 <pikhq> None of this *waiting 10 years* bullshit.
05:56:25 <oklopol> do they organize temporary weddingings for this stuff
05:56:34 <pikhq> It happens sometimes.
05:57:22 <pikhq> You have the green card; you're not freaking losing it.
05:59:13 <oklopol> so there's this girl in the graph theory course, she told us she knows how to solve the discrete logarithm problem: "instead of logarithms, you take the integrals. then, you take the discrete version instead, because that's easier to think about. now, the crucial thing is that they come from the other dimensions, and you can call them in *every point*." "erm, call what?" "well... umm... all of them! and then the you take the ring, and they keep circlin
05:59:28 <pikhq> Ultimately, it seems easier to immigrate to Japan than the US. And Japan has an *infamously* difficult immigration system.
05:59:48 <oklopol> then person x asked what the discrete logarithm is, and i explained, and the girl was like "oh that's what it is? lol, i was solving a much harder problem"
06:00:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
06:00:52 <oklopol> this "girl" is actually like 40 but anyway
06:01:18 <pikhq> (Japan has: no quotas. No "temporary worker" visas. No waiting lists. 5 years after being in the country and you can apply for citizenship. Permanent residency is an absurd bitch, though)
06:01:33 <pikhq> (Yes, permanent residency is harder than citizenship)
06:02:34 <oklopol> i don't really know how things work in finland either
06:02:41 <oklopol> so i have little to compare with
06:02:46 <oklopol> i assume we do things in a relatively sane way
06:02:54 <oklopol> because we're one of the normal countries
06:03:25 <oklopol> the BORING countries :((((((((((((
06:03:46 <oklopol> i have never even seen a massacre
06:04:24 <pikhq> Not sure on how the visas work, but citizenship seems relatively sane.
06:04:49 <pikhq> Also, visas only relevant for non-Schengen.
06:05:05 <oklopol> usa is awesome though, we had this researcher from allah country x, and he could never get to the conferences in usa because of that
06:05:50 <oklopol> maybe he wrote INFIDELS MUST DIE in the application paper, dunno
06:08:52 <pikhq> At worst, you could immigrate to Finland by immigrating to the easiest EU country to immigrate to, get citizenship, and move.
06:10:25 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:12:22 <pikhq> Ah, seems that to immigrate to Finland you need to just have family there, intend to study there, or intend to work there.
06:12:40 <pikhq> Voila, you get a residence permit.
06:12:51 <pikhq> Be there for 6 years, and you can get citizenship. Voila.
06:15:10 <pikhq> Though you need to know one of Finnish, Swedish, or Finnish sign language to become a citizen.
06:15:54 <pikhq> Still. Entirely sane and manageable.
06:17:03 -!- elliott has joined.
06:17:14 <oklopol> swedish is essentially english, and finnish is essentially estonian
06:17:49 <elliott> Sleep schedule upside-down.
06:17:55 <elliott> oklopol is pleasant surprise, hello.
06:18:43 <elliott> 06:15:46 <oklopol> and does elliott want to learn japanese? that sounds crazy
06:18:44 <elliott> 06:21:29 <pikhq> oklopol: Quite honestly, I'll be pleasantly surprised if he keeps it up for a week.
06:19:05 <oklopol> elliott: i've been sleeping 7pm-3am lately
06:19:05 <elliott> it's menial busywork, it's not like projects where I can architecture myself way out of space and then realise it'll be an unholy bitch to do
06:19:19 <elliott> oklopol: oh, that's the worst. well 8pm-4am is the absolute worst, IMHO
06:19:26 <elliott> oklopol: I'm on 6 am - 4 pm, basically
06:19:36 <oklopol> yeah i've done a lot of that stuff
06:20:01 <oklopol> but the pmtoam is new to me, and it seems to work better than a normal sleep schedule
06:20:14 <elliott> oklopol: midday/1pm wakeup is ideal imho
06:20:26 <elliott> nice warm afternoon wakeup, late sleepytime
06:22:50 <oklopol> well see i love being at the university, alone in the darkness
06:23:23 <elliott> oklopol: i like nighttime, but when i don't get much daytime at all when i wake up it fucks me up a bit
06:23:34 <pikhq> elliott: True, it will be much easier for you to estabilish inertia.
06:24:06 <elliott> punctuation is too hard :))
06:24:11 <elliott> wanna sleep already, this is not goodgoing
06:24:13 <oklopol> "elliott: you suck" "pikhq: haha typo"
06:24:29 <oklopol> those were like what you prefix your things with
06:24:39 <oklopol> elliott: you are a fucking idiot
06:24:46 <pikhq> elliott: I'm sleep deprived and should be going to bed right now. I'm tired.
06:24:56 <elliott> pikhq: haha join the club it's the best club *hi5*
06:25:02 <elliott> pikhq: i woke up at 4 pm, it's now 7 am
06:25:14 <elliott> <pikhq> ... I am not worthy
06:25:21 <pikhq> I've just been cutting sleep short an hour or two the past week.
06:25:34 <oklopol> i went to sleep at 23 and woke up at 8
06:25:35 <pikhq> Nothing near as crazy as that, because I have class.
06:25:54 <elliott> oklopol: why's it sound crazy though, legit interested
06:26:01 <elliott> (me wanting to learn moonspeak)
06:26:12 <oklopol> elliott: dunno, just kinda random
06:26:14 <pikhq> oklopol: Linear algebra, differential equations, logic, and current political issues.
06:26:17 <oklopol> who'd want to learn japanese
06:26:31 <oklopol> pikhq: ah the four classics
06:26:39 <oklopol> i took those on my first year
06:26:56 <pikhq> oklopol: 皆！皆が日本語を勉強したいぜっ！
06:27:14 <oklopol> elliott: i want to learn japanese because i already know some of it, originally i just wanted to learn *a* language
06:27:33 <elliott> oklopol: it's agglutinative, doesn't have a boring latin-derivative alphabet, and, I dunno
06:27:38 <oklopol> pikhq: all! all will japanese want to learn ze
06:27:44 <elliott> the other contestant was Finnish. but your alphabet is boring.
06:27:54 <pikhq> oklopol: Everyone! Everyone wants to learn Japanese!
06:27:54 <elliott> even if your agglutinativity is better i guess. whatev.
06:27:59 <pikhq> elliott: I bet that looks much less like moonspeak to you now.
06:28:07 <oklopol> i would've translated it better if i'd known i'd know all the kanji
06:28:14 <elliott> pikhq: no, it looks exactly like moonspeak. i didn't continue with the sampler
06:28:25 <elliott> at least i can see that they're theoretically made out of multiple bits at least :D
06:29:49 <oklopol> so that all kanji, is minna one of its readings?
06:30:00 <elliott> oklopol: but ehh, with finnish i'd have to like get down to the business of actually learning the shits quickly
06:30:12 <elliott> oklopol: no funky alphabet
06:30:19 <elliott> oklopol: with japanese I can trick myself into thinking it's easy enough to continue because I have to learn all dem kanjae first
06:30:29 <oklopol> well it doesn't take you that long
06:30:30 <elliott> which is trivial but time-consuming.
06:30:53 <elliott> oklopol: rtk1&3 is ~3 months i think
06:31:33 <oklopol> i have spent quite a lot more than 3 hours on the kanji :D
06:31:44 <oklopol> at least hmmhmm 50 hours maybe
06:32:02 <elliott> they're pretty too. although finnish is also pretty
06:32:06 <oklopol> and i still don't know that many
06:32:19 <elliott> but really, "kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen", who can ever understand words like that, finnish is too hard
06:32:26 -!- augur has joined.
06:32:58 <pikhq> If you just add a few more vowels, it could almost pass for Japanese. :P
06:33:09 <elliott> note: i invented that word.
06:33:14 <elliott> with MINIMAL aid from oklopol.
06:33:28 <elliott> 06:50:10 <pikhq> At worst, you could immigrate to Finland by immigrating to the easiest EU country to immigrate to, get citizenship, and move.
06:33:29 <elliott> isn't "emigrate" more correct here
06:33:40 <pikhq> kakusikyammentanerujatsunchiaikakaushitamanhettakinen.
06:33:49 <elliott> pikhq: what does that mean, doorknob testtube?
06:34:05 <pikhq> elliott: It's Japanese-sounding gibberish.
06:34:31 <pikhq> elliott: Coming from an actual Japanese speaker.
06:34:53 <pikhq> And it's tortoises all the way down.
06:35:02 <oklopol> quick, what's the square root of two?
06:36:37 <oklopol> it is my dream (one of many) to sneak up on pikhq one day and start speaking to him in fluent japanese
06:36:42 <oklopol> i don't wanna go to japan on anything
06:37:00 <elliott> oklopol: let's do it TOGETHER
06:37:07 <elliott> let's get on a flight to japan pikhq is taking
06:37:16 <elliott> and then immediately get a return flight
06:37:35 <elliott> got any vodka, need to make him forget :/
06:37:56 <pikhq> EXCEPT THAT I SHOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN THIS 42 GALLONS OF EVERCLEAR
06:38:13 <oklopol> well there's the slight glitch in the plan that he probably won't share his whereabouts that easily
06:38:25 <oklopol> if i knew where you people lived, i'd have come visit many times already
06:38:40 <pikhq> oklopol: Uh, I have. Several times.
06:38:44 -!- FireFly has joined.
06:39:00 <oklopol> oh well i have not paid attention i suppose
06:39:16 <oklopol> anyhow usa is kind of different because i don't really know a cheapish way there
06:39:20 <elliott> he's in colorado springs... in the past
06:39:28 <pikhq> elliott: And present.
06:39:41 <pikhq> Well, just outside of Colorado Springs.
06:39:44 <oklopol> but yeah supposedly it came up in the "hey we're fucking each others' neighbors" thingie
06:39:44 <elliott> or was that just into the clitty
06:39:50 <pikhq> I did. Back to Colorado Springs.
06:39:55 <oklopol> i don't remember who the other guy was
06:39:58 <elliott> pikhq: where were you before that, buttfuck colorado?
06:39:58 <oklopol> but pikhq and someone else
06:40:03 <elliott> missouri = buttfuck colorado
06:40:31 <pikhq> elliott: Missouri is 12 hours of driving from here.
06:40:35 * elliott yawnzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
06:40:41 <elliott> pikhq: buttfuck coloradozzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
06:40:45 <oklopol> pikhq: didn't you and someone else here notice you were each others' neighbors
06:40:51 <elliott> oklopol: you're oklopol, you're meant to be immune to the yawn STD
06:40:54 <oklopol> only like 50 miles between
06:41:06 <elliott> wasn't he in colorado sploots
06:41:08 <pikhq> Oh, 50 miles between? Right, bsmntbombdood.
06:41:20 <pikhq> He was in, like, Boulder, wasn't he?
06:41:21 <elliott> i picked that up by logreading
06:41:31 <elliott> hey oklopol, what's your full address
06:41:46 <elliott> oklopol: but i wanna get on a plane today .........
06:41:54 <oklopol> there's a spa called caribia pretty close tho
06:42:04 <elliott> i think you've told me before
06:42:07 <elliott> so it's really just jigging my memory.
06:42:23 <pikhq> elliott: The distance from here to Missouri is longer than the distance from the southernmost point of the UK to the northernmost point. Now shaddup about Missouri being buttfuck Colorado.
06:42:36 <elliott> pikhq: its like the nether in minecraft, the distances in the usa are just multiplied
06:43:11 <pikhq> That would give the US positively ridiculous population density.
06:43:23 <elliott> pikhq: that's hardly the most ridiculous part of the USA :)
06:43:59 <pikhq> 1,264 people per km² is what it would come down to.
06:44:44 <pikhq> Instead of what it actually is, 33 km².
06:44:55 <elliott> you forgot a people and a slash
06:45:11 <oklopol> elliott owns at debating atm
06:45:19 <elliott> i'm seeing the inner structure of arguments
06:45:25 <elliott> turns out, mostly the inner structure is just trivial bullshit.
06:46:07 <oklopol> okay time to go, we have this great thingie on automata and number theory
06:51:35 <elliott> how much do you know about x86
06:51:51 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
06:52:12 -!- pikhq has joined.
07:06:19 <elliott> pikhq: 00:58:01 <ams> as for your code, i cannot read intel assembler.
07:06:30 <elliott> pikhq: There aren't enough sigils, and the operand order is too logical.
07:06:53 <elliott> Also, I'm not burdened by having to spell out the obvious operand sizes in every instruction name.
07:15:51 <elliott> pikhq pikhq pikhq. how much x86 know you
07:16:33 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5230043/computational-cost-of-applicative-style
07:35:28 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:35:38 -!- elliott has joined.
07:39:30 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
07:48:03 <elliott> pikhq: talking to ams is like a ticking timebomb
07:48:08 <elliott> just waiting for him to get annoyed at something i say
07:48:10 <elliott> or realise he ignored me once
07:49:41 <elliott> <ams> anyway, we named the OS GNU, please call it that when refering to GNU.
07:51:05 <elliott> fizzie: ams is a major GNU zealot.
07:51:34 <elliott> fizzie: I'm busy trying to blow his mind by mentioning that Kitten has (will have, would have) almost no GNU software.
07:51:37 <fizzie> With a name like that (edit distance of 1 from rms) he'd sort of have to be.
07:51:43 <elliott> Probably I will blow his mind right with me on to his ignore list.
07:51:49 <elliott> fizzie: He's a "well-known" IRC malcontent/troll.
07:52:02 <fizzie> I am not very much in the "scene".
07:52:07 <fizzie> Maybe I should join more channels some day.
07:52:43 <elliott> fizzie: This is hilarious: he's arguing that GNU have naming rights to a system with almost no GNU software, just because they were, you know, there at the right place at the right time.
07:52:54 <elliott> "we named the OS GNU", honestly, what a god complex.
07:53:06 <elliott> <SunTzu> besides, Linus holds the trademark to Linux, not GNU nor ~rms
07:53:06 <elliott> <ams> SunTzu: people saying lies can always say lies.
07:53:06 <elliott> <ams> SunTzu: we hold a trademark on GNU btw.
07:53:38 <elliott> The hard part here is keeping up this schtick long enough to irritate him without annoying him so much outright that he just concludes I'm a troll.
07:54:07 <fizzie> GNU coding standard quotation of the day:
07:54:08 <fizzie> Please don’t use “win” as an abbreviation for Microsoft Windows in GNU software or documentation. In hacker terminology, calling something a “win” is a form of praise. If you wish to praise Microsoft Windows when speaking on your own, by all means do so, but not in GNU software. Usually we write the name “Windows” in full, but when brevity is very important (as in file names and sometimes symbol names), we abbreviate it to “w”. For instance, t
07:54:08 <fizzie> he files and functions in Emacs that deal with Windows start with ‘w32’.
07:55:27 <elliott> <ams> elliott: it is also immensly rude to those who wrote the OS to give credit for someone who only did a small work (in the grand scheme of things)
07:55:48 <elliott> Wait, I think I understand now.
07:56:01 <elliott> He maintains GNU inetutils, implementations of ping etc. that absolutely no distro uses.
07:56:09 <elliott> --> HULK SMASH RUDE GNU HATERS
07:56:09 <fizzie> You must start calling it Linux/GNU/God. Because, you know, the grand scheme of things.
07:56:29 <fizzie> Or in the other order, maybe.
07:56:37 <elliott> <ams> most people actually say and write GNU/Linux these days anyway.
07:56:37 <elliott> <ams> most people actually say and write GNU/Linux these days anyway.
07:56:38 <elliott> <ams> most people actually say and write GNU/Linux these days anyway.
07:56:38 <elliott> <ams> most people actually say and write GNU/Linux these days anyway.
07:56:38 <elliott> <ams> most people actually say and write GNU/Linux these days anyway.
07:56:39 <elliott> <ams> most people actually say and write GNU/Linux these days anyway.
07:56:59 <elliott> fizzie: Can you like... put that in the ChanServ welcome message?
07:57:02 <elliott> I feel we can never quote it enough.
07:57:06 <elliott> Shouldn't it be Electricity/GNU/Linux
07:57:11 <elliott> (Started to copy fizzie's troll.)
07:57:15 <elliott> <ams> most people actually say and write GNU/Linux these days anyway.
07:57:41 <fizzie> http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Linux&word2=GNU%2FLinux
07:58:01 <elliott> fizzie: Can't link that to him, it requires Flash, which is a tool of the evil empire
07:58:29 <elliott> <ams> elliott: you would be correct if you go back a few years, then it was more common to refer to GNU/Linux incorrecly as Linux.
07:58:31 <elliott> <ams> but these days the opposite it true, which is good
07:58:35 <elliott> <ams> and you can help us clear up the mess
07:58:54 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, he's explained it.
07:58:54 <elliott> fizzie: <ams> elliott: google will filter out the slash
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:00:09 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
08:00:55 <fizzie> Yes, it sort-of does, which is why searching for "GNU/Linux" also hits some pages that just say "GNU Linux" in addition to the ones that say "GNU/Linux".
08:01:07 <elliott> <SunTzu> ams "we" do not hold, FSF holds on our behalf, but I object to tacit procuration; who (as in the People) appointed FSF holder of anything; it's people who delegate by contract to FSF to hold their surrendered rights, and thus lose those rights. what is mine is no longer mine when i transfer rights to another.
08:01:30 <fizzie> Sounds almost as topical as this channel.
08:01:54 <elliott> <ams> SunTzu: that makes absolutley no sense, and you are spouting lies.
08:01:58 <elliott> Idiots arguing with idiots.
08:02:58 <fizzie> He's sprouting lilies.
08:03:58 <elliott> <ams> SunTzu: i can saftley say we seeing i've been part of the GNU project for some odd 20+ years
08:03:58 <elliott> <ams> SunTzu: even before we applied for TM of GNU.
08:04:32 <elliott> <SunTzu> linux didnt exist before '93; i started using Linux in '94.
08:04:33 <elliott> <ams> you started using gnu in 94.
08:04:46 <elliott> Hey fizzie, what operating system are you running?
08:05:14 <fizzie> I'm running the GNU/GNU/GNU/GNU/GNU/Lie-nux, because I want to GIVE RESPECT to the MAN.
08:05:26 <elliott> fizzie: WRONG. You're running UNIVERSE.
08:05:30 <elliott> That's the most important contributor in the scheme of things.
08:05:52 <fizzie> http://www.trademarkia.com/gnu-76627381.html ← must be the trademark he's talking about.
08:06:02 <elliott> fizzie: Quick, what's the -ology of naming?
08:06:07 <elliott> Chronological = ology of time.
08:08:26 <elliott> <ams> elliott: what happened in 92 or whatever, was that a bunch of people took a basic GNU system, and ported it to work with the Linux kernel.
08:08:32 <elliott> fizzie: do you think this guy actually believes what he's saying?
08:09:14 <fizzie> Based on the quotes I've seen, he does sound like a True Believer.
08:09:58 <elliott> fizzie: he maintains his blog as an info page... yeah, must be truly insane
08:12:12 <elliott> <ams> if we are refering to the same tunes...
08:12:13 <elliott> <elliott> ams: Faré tunes, tunes.org TUNES? Expediency and whatnot?
08:12:13 <elliott> <elliott> Dead as a thing that is quite thoroughly dead?
08:12:13 <elliott> <ams> elliott: TUNES is a Useful, Not Expedient, System?
08:12:18 <elliott> fizzie: I think he uses the rms Web Browser.
08:12:22 <elliott> i.e. another machine running a mail daemon and wget.
08:15:37 <fizzie> IMve understood one point of that is to reduce distractions; spending time arguing in IRC sounds rather defeatingous then.
08:16:31 <elliott> fizzie: It distracts from vital Toe-Picking-and-Eating time
08:17:02 <elliott> Provided without context: <ams> can i be your first groupie?
08:19:01 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, but I must quote something more.
08:19:02 <elliott> <ams> "When will TUNES be done?"
08:19:02 <elliott> <ams> prolly something like that ;-)
08:19:02 <elliott> <ams> SunTzu: the Hurd has had three releases.
08:19:15 <elliott> Only the Head Zealot could with a straight face defend the Hurd as not being vapourware.
08:20:04 <fizzie> 2011 - year of Hurd on Desktop?
08:21:31 -!- elliott_ has joined.
08:21:42 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:21:45 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott.
08:21:50 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
08:21:50 -!- elliott has joined.
08:31:52 <elliott> Are there any PEG parsers that automatically rewrite left-recursive rules as not?
08:32:12 <elliott> oh, hmm, apparently ometa actually supports direct left recursion...
08:32:16 <elliott> not linear time complexity but
08:32:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game).
08:42:11 <elliott> <elliott> Forth's simplicity in comparison is a testament to that.
08:58:28 <fizzie> "Forms: Also ME testement, ME–15 testment."
08:58:39 <fizzie> (ME in this context being Middle English.)
09:00:49 <elliott> <SunTzu> oh and learm more about fpga's
09:00:50 <elliott> <elliott> the Reduceron is implemented on an FPGA :)
09:00:50 <elliott> <elliott> it's basically purely-functional symbolic hardware
09:00:50 <elliott> <SunTzu> damn, i need to write (;code)
09:00:54 <elliott> <ams> SunTzu: may i recommend learning english first.
09:00:56 <elliott> <ams> i find it quite sad that computer programmers often tend to have immensly bad grammar, and vocabulary usage. we who are so precise in communicating with computers can't even use a stupid spoken language properly..
09:04:37 <elliott> Why Chuck Moore doesn't respond to emails: "I won't respond to these emails, except on future postings. 'Cause I don't know who you are, and the the web is full of predators."
09:04:42 <elliott> Chuck Moore -- secretly a child.
09:15:41 <elliott> fizzie: The guy is IRCing from a vt320.
09:15:44 <elliott> fizzie: I am not, in fact, kidding.
09:16:36 <fizzie> Well, it's not a bad terminal.
09:17:04 <fizzie> What does *he* run, anyway? GNU/Linux too?
09:17:20 <elliott> fizzie: I suspect that it is perhaps the only display device he has anywhere near him; he said I would have to convert to a Tektronics vector image to see it.
09:17:33 <elliott> fizzie: (I was trying to paste a particularly complicated kanji to make a point about vocabulary, but obviously he can't see that.)
09:17:42 <elliott> (I was going to use the GIMP to make a nice big png of it.)
09:19:21 <elliott> fizzie: UNFORTUNATELY it seems he has taken it upon himself to learn something about 99% of the languages on earth, so he knew "asztal" when I tried that at first. (Thanks to #esoteric for teaching me the single word of Hungarian I know.)
09:19:37 <elliott> Previously he put me on /ignore for quoting a revised C99 specification when he asked a question about C99.
09:19:43 <elliott> He said I was a liar because C99 didn't come out in 2007.
09:20:02 <elliott> OBVIOUSLY the behaviour of free(NULL) changed since 1999.
09:21:00 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*).
09:22:57 <fizzie> Yes, it must be so that it was the same (do no action) in C89 and in your (I guess it's the "adds the three Technical Corrigendum revisions" one) draft, but briefly different in C99.
09:24:01 <elliott> fizzie: And as a liar, I should be /ignored.
09:24:12 <elliott> Wow. Friendster still exists.
09:24:23 <elliott> Like, "looks different to how it used to look" still exists.
09:24:59 <fizzie> "Over 90% of Friendster's traffic comes from Asia. In Asia, Friendster has more monthly unique visitors than any other social network."
09:25:04 <fizzie> Seems to be a Thing there.
09:25:38 <fizzie> Maybe that's why it looks... like that...
09:25:56 <elliott> I think the homepage thing is randomificatified.
09:27:05 <elliott> fizzie: YOU MUST SCREENSHOT
09:27:10 <elliott> It's like... a rule... god i'm tired
09:27:29 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendster ;; uh, nice formatting fail here (Chrome).
09:28:24 <fizzie> http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/friendster.png is what I got; it's mostly empty thanks to noscript.
09:28:43 <elliott> Me no so good with spelling.
09:28:53 <elliott> So, err, Friendster is all about games, apparently.
09:29:09 <elliott> And fizzie uses slight, greyscale hinting with err... not Clearlooks Classic...
09:29:13 <fizzie> It seems to be a "social gaming destination".
09:29:26 <elliott> Is it just the stock Ubuntu one, pre whenever?
09:29:30 <elliott> (Whenever = when it was redesignified.)
09:30:02 -!- Lymia has joined.
09:30:02 <fizzie> This is Ubuntu 9.10 at the moment, and I haven't really touched the settings much.
09:30:39 <elliott> fizzie: But you did change font hinting.
09:32:38 <fizzie> There's a mass upgrade to 10.10 scheduled this month, actually.
09:32:58 <fizzie> Also apparently 60 TB of new disk space.
09:33:05 <elliott> <elliott> Veggie oil; it's generated by burning vegetarians.
09:33:20 <elliott> I think it might be time for me to exercise _my_ magical /ignore.
09:33:26 <elliott> But first, to figure out how on earth to respond to that.
09:33:35 <elliott> fizzie: Dude, it's GNU, it's all about freeee looove.
09:33:39 <fizzie> Maybe he's just trying to be friendly.
09:33:53 <elliott> Also I think this is the first time anything has dumbfounded you enough to warrant an ellipsis on a line of its own.
09:34:29 <fizzie> It came out of the proverbial "left field".
09:34:30 <elliott> I think I will just pretend to be afk. :p
09:35:03 <elliott> fizzie: Can we get a, you know, preemptive ban on him in here? :-p
09:35:33 <fizzie> Ask Gregor, he seems to be pre-emptively +o'd and all. (Tut tut, raising the channel temperature like that.)
09:35:56 <elliott> 05.11.24:06:59:34 <fizzie> ...
09:35:56 <elliott> 08.08.16:16:40:40 <fizzie> ...
09:35:56 <elliott> 08.08.21:01:20:05 <fizzie> ...
09:35:56 <elliott> 08.08.22:09:46:59 <fizzie> ...
09:35:56 <elliott> 08.08.27:12:55:59 <fizzie> ...
09:35:57 <elliott> 09.10.13:08:31:26 <fizzie> ...
09:35:59 <elliott> 10.10.06:11:46:53 <fizzie> ...
09:36:01 <elliott> 10.12.17:07:49:31 <fizzie> ...
09:36:03 <elliott> 11.02.24:12:56:21 <fizzie> ...
09:36:25 <Lymia> elliott, respond with "Sorry, I'm /not/ gay."
09:36:27 <Lymia> Alternatively, the opposite.
09:36:38 <elliott> "Sorry, I'm female. And gay."
09:37:00 <elliott> Maybe this is a cunning plot by him to make me shut up.
09:37:23 <elliott> Ooh, he has a FACEBOOK ACCOUNT; that's not very GNU of him.
09:37:29 <elliott> Oh god my #forth tab is now red. I am scared to click.
09:37:38 <elliott> <SunTzu> elliott you is goil?
09:38:15 <elliott> fizzie: please join #forth and say something totally irrelevant but Forth-related. The madness must end!
09:38:33 <elliott> <SunTzu> keep it in your pant, ams
09:38:53 <fizzie> Well, the 09.10.13 was just "..." in the sense of "what I pasted above goes on"; as was the 10.12.17 instance. But the 10.10.06 one was a "real" one, as a reaction to fungot.
09:38:53 <fungot> fizzie: and here i was going to change
09:39:03 <fizzie> fungot: Oh, but you must never change.
09:39:04 <fungot> fizzie: do you like? have you considered making an interactive programming language for scientists, mathematicians and engineers that is also the explicit value of the arguement bpb
09:39:37 <elliott> 12:56:03 <fungot> fizzie: i am your mother.") for online help, try /msg minion cliki? writing a cv in latex is not hard to do,
09:39:38 <fungot> elliott: and then we can all be haf. i don't want
09:39:42 <elliott> fungot sure does amaze its creator.
09:39:43 <fungot> elliott: lunarcrisis pasted " fibonacci" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ 6949 ( unnamed in fnord
09:40:00 <fizzie> He doesn't want to be haf.
09:40:13 <elliott> <fizzie> wah wah wah neglect social responsibilities
09:41:32 <fizzie> I'm such an irresponsible guy.
09:41:59 <elliott> fizzie: I bet you go around having SEX with RANDOM PEOPLE ON IRC.
09:42:12 <elliott> The irresponsibility, bounds, it knows none of them.
09:45:55 <elliott> 12:24:03 <fizzie> Quite a lot of names in the nick list compared to the ones that actually appear in the discussion; discuss.
09:45:59 <elliott> fizzie: please ban all lurkers.
09:46:12 <elliott> fizzie: yiyus and pingveno definitely have to go.
09:46:35 <elliott> AFAICT yiyus has never said a single thing
09:55:50 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
09:56:03 <elliott> hey fizzie, did you actually sleep
09:56:57 -!- cheater- has joined.
10:23:14 -!- cheater00 has joined.
10:23:40 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:34:28 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:36:06 -!- cheater00 has joined.
10:45:22 -!- cheater- has joined.
10:46:30 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:57:11 -!- cheater00 has joined.
10:57:24 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
11:00:55 <elliott> fizzie: The Saga Continues: <ams> SunTzu: you are assuming i'm a guy
11:07:08 -!- Guest1055 has joined.
11:07:32 <nooga> the cup is empty and i'm too lazy to make myself another tea
11:07:38 <nooga> i guess i will have to eat leaves
11:09:39 <elliott> nooga: go write my os for me
11:10:35 <fizzie> Now you inspired me to go look at how Hurd's been doing in the previous decade: "From 2004 onward, various efforts were launched to port the Hurd to more modern microkernels. The L4 microkernel was the original choice in 2004, but progress slowed to a halt. -- Since 2005, most of the developers' time has gone into thinking about Coyotos -- but progress was slow. In 2008, Neal Walfield began working on the Viengoos microkernel as an alternative. In April 2009, S
11:10:35 <fizzie> hapiro announced that work on the Coyotos project had ceased. As of 2011, development on Viengoos is paused due to Walfield lacking time to work on it. In the meantime, others have continued working on the Mach variant of Hurd."
11:10:45 <fizzie> Sounds like it's almost there.
11:10:55 <elliott> fizzie: It still doesn't support USB.
11:11:37 <fizzie> Well, you know, it's the Thunderbolt age now, or so I hear. Maybe they can just skip USB.
11:11:53 <elliott> Yes, I've mentally prepared myself to be all old-farty about that.
11:12:07 -!- cheater00 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:12:14 <elliott> It is taking surprisingly little effort.
11:12:16 <fizzie> They have that chaining thing.
11:12:22 <elliott> But hey fizzie, I'm sure you'll have no problem, being basically 40.
11:12:23 <fizzie> "A single Thunderbolt port supports hubs as well as a daisy chain of up to seven Thunderbolt devices; up to two of these devices may be high-resolution displays using DisplayPort."
11:12:26 <fizzie> It's almost like SCSI.
11:12:33 <elliott> fizzie is a person that is almost 40.
11:12:37 <elliott> In fact he is practically 40.
11:12:50 <elliott> My tauntings are ineffective. or more effective than intended.
11:12:58 <elliott> why do you make things so hard for me fizzie :(
11:13:03 -!- cheater00 has joined.
11:13:09 <fizzie> 30 is closer, yes; and both are still off in the same direction.
11:13:28 <elliott> fizzie: You've been getting older at a rate of one year per year; aren't you 28 now?
11:13:55 <fizzie> 28 in about a month, I think.
11:14:16 <elliott> It's OK, just means that you've only got ...
11:14:44 <elliott> How far through 75 are you, if you're 30, as a fraction. X_X
11:14:46 <elliott> My brain, it is the tired.
11:15:01 <elliott> Meanwhilstly, http://www.wolframcdn.com/sponsor-ads/Mathematica-ring-a.png
11:16:33 <elliott> fizzie, prove to me that you're not a robot.
11:16:52 <fizzie> How would you like me to do that?
11:19:15 <fizzie> s" fizzie" s" robot" compare . -1 ok
11:19:30 <elliott> fizzie: That's engineering, I want science.
11:19:32 <elliott> Try proving it in HOL Light.
11:19:41 <elliott> fizzie: Calculate it with Fortran.
11:20:32 -!- cheater- has joined.
11:20:46 <fizzie> That may take me a moment; my FORTRAN is rusty.
11:21:03 <elliott> But seriously though fizzie, did you sleep at some reasonable time and I just didn't noticed?
11:21:08 <elliott> I feel this is disturbingly possible.
11:21:15 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
11:21:24 <fizzie> Yes, I did; from about 02~03am to 09am in our time zone.
11:22:10 <elliott> So, err, fizzie, you know x86, what was I going to ask about x86, um.
11:22:17 <elliott> HOW MUCH DO YOU KNOW ABOUT FORTH, FIZZIE
11:23:30 <fizzie> Not very much, I'm afraid; barely enough to get myself into trouble with it.
11:25:06 <elliott> fizzie: well you see i'm doing this indirect threaded code SHIZZAT -technical term- where
11:25:10 <elliott> ok so a dictionary entry is
11:25:21 <elliott> for a "primitive", data=0, and code just points to the asm
11:25:29 <elliott> data points to a list of pointers into dictionary entries
11:25:50 <elliott> {ptr to @ entry, ptr to LITERAL entry, 1, ptr to + entry, ptr to RETURNOFSOMEKIND entry}
11:25:58 <elliott> fizzie: BUT THE PROBLEM IS, the word that threads these right!
11:26:02 <elliott> it has to keep track of its data pointer
11:26:14 <elliott> all it can push on to the return stack is, you know, an address of its internal code
11:26:24 <elliott> everything else might get clobbered -- and WILL get clobbered, if you call another defined-in-Forth word
11:26:38 <elliott> I think the traditional solution to this is... I don't know, I think the normal method is more "direct"
11:26:48 <elliott> sneaking another value on to the return stack sounds ugly to me
11:26:53 <elliott> fizzie: impart infinite wisdom to tired soul
11:29:42 <elliott> i feel like fizzie is a givings up.
11:32:19 <elliott> nooga: why hath fizzie forsaken me
11:32:29 <fizzie> When it comes to Forth, I'm really more of an user than an implementor; when it comes to ITC all I know is that I've seen a lot of confusing rambling about it.
11:33:46 <elliott> i could do it the sane way maybe
11:34:25 <elliott> http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/threaded-code.html mips assembly
11:35:29 <elliott> ; Assumes that the first DWORD of a descriptor points to the intended code to execute.
11:37:26 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
11:39:00 -!- cheater- has joined.
11:42:07 <elliott> and i don't need the return stack any more.
11:44:26 -!- sftp has joined.
11:45:57 <elliott> ok so, [di] is the main thing.
11:47:05 <elliott> fizzie: is it usual if I end up having no return stack?
11:48:09 <fizzie> It sounds unusual, since quite often people do use r> and >r.
11:49:11 <fizzie> And for nesting those loop counters, maybe.
11:50:12 <elliott> fizzie: yeah i think it's this thing known as umm
11:50:24 <elliott> fizzie: summon impomatic for me
11:50:38 <elliott> he'll know what to do. wait. fuck. what. how does this even.
11:50:47 <fizzie> I'm all out of candles for the pentagram.
11:52:44 <elliott> hey. what if i just do it the ghetto way.
11:52:48 <elliott> direct subroutine threaded code.
11:55:00 -!- ais523_ has joined.
11:56:07 <ais523_> hmm, since when did qwebirc use a fixed-width font?
11:56:26 <ais523_> it used to be proportional sans-serif for me
11:56:45 <elliott> meanwhile, /me is working on his 510 byte forth
11:56:52 <ais523_> also, there's something wrong with the rendering of it, I think the characters are too far apart
11:57:15 <ais523_> dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
11:57:43 <ais523_> oh, I see, the characters don't line up within their bounding box
11:57:49 <elliott> which has caused me to start writing (not on IRC) in ais523_-speak
11:57:51 <ais523_> elliott: you should try it, it's quite relaxing
11:58:02 <elliott> I'm, uhh, realigning my schedule mumble.
11:58:32 <elliott> http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/2011/02/formal-comments-and-stylistic-lag.html?showComment=1299755098290#c5941692649704322889 <-- an impressive accidental emulation of ais523_'s style to make the exact opposite point that he'd make
11:59:29 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
12:00:41 <elliott> ais523_: um, AFAIK the author's name isn't known; but it's one of the best programming language blogs in existence
12:00:50 <elliott> ais523_: and I am sure I have reacted incredulously to you not noticing me linking to it before
12:00:58 <elliott> so let's just pretend we went through all that again
12:01:13 <ais523_> hmm, if so I don't remember
12:01:13 -!- cheater- has joined.
12:01:23 <elliott> (It's linked from the Loper OS site, but I don't think that's how I found it.)
12:01:24 <ais523_> and that comment doesn't match my style, it has two semicolons on the same indentation level
12:01:45 <elliott> ais523_: what, can you not have a tri-pronged nesting, where all three parts are equal?
12:02:57 <ais523_> hmm, I think what's up with the font is that this computer's had a different set of fonts installed, for whatever reason
12:03:07 <ais523_> and now it's showing websites like they want to be shown, rather than forcing the font to something sane
12:03:32 <ais523_> (this reminds me of my Epiphany custom stylesheet that forces a background and foreground !important onto everything, with a differently colored foreground for links)
12:04:41 <ais523_> hmm, proggit are talking about the price of Xcode changing from 0 to $4.99, and how bizarre it is for the price to be positive but that low
12:05:22 <ais523_> I'm just trying to figure out their reasoning
12:05:28 <elliott> ais523_: Mac App Store apps are low-priced.
12:05:54 <ais523_> but IDEs don't really seem to fit into the model of impulse purchases
12:06:01 <elliott> ais523_: And since it evidently isn't a _great_ issue for them (they did give it away for free, after all)...
12:06:01 <ais523_> especially not the main IDE for a system
12:06:04 <elliott> No reason to break the mould.
12:06:09 <elliott> I think it's just rabid dogfooding.
12:06:17 <elliott> ais523_: It is a shame, though; Apple have been consistently pushing back programmability. Sure, the same is true of Windows, but on Windows, MinGW etc. are widely-supported and useful.
12:06:34 <elliott> On OS X... well, I think you could probably use a prebuilt binary plus MacPorts to get yourself a gcc toolchain.
12:06:44 <elliott> But it wouldn't work with the Apple extensions and APIs (or the latter at least not very well).
12:07:06 <elliott> This is just moving further away from the Commodore 64, like I said earlier.
12:07:23 <fizzie> Vague "meh" here too; as far as I understand it, iPhone development has been non-free all the time, and it certainly doesn't seem to hurt them commercially.
12:07:44 <elliott> In other notable news today, I have been propositioned by a prominent GNU maintainer over IRC.
12:07:58 <elliott> Err, what was the bug, I've forgotten...
12:08:03 <ais523_> the lead developer of llvm commented saying it was for accounting reasons, on the basis that if you give something away free and then provide updates it plays hell with accounting
12:08:18 <ais523_> whereas it's much easier with an explicit price tag
12:08:18 <elliott> ais523_: I think that was debunked.
12:08:25 <elliott> ais523_: one, that act has been around much longer
12:08:35 <elliott> ais523_: two, they have been giving it away for free
12:08:43 <elliott> and the accounting only applies to _free_ updates to _paid_ products
12:10:00 <ais523_> well, I think the argument was that there's a specific accounting rule for free updates to paid products
12:10:05 <ais523_> but not one for free updates to free products
12:10:21 <ais523_> so if you use the version with the rule in, at least you know what you're supposed to put on the balance sheet
12:11:21 <elliott> ais523_: nothing, that's why it's free!
12:11:47 <ais523_> nah, balance sheets work both ways, money in and money out
12:12:06 <ais523_> you're not directly getting money in, but you still need to allow for the money it costs you to produce the stuff you're giving away
12:12:27 <elliott> fuck accounting. clearly invented by people who had eight hours sleep the previous night.
12:14:39 <elliott> ok, i... think i can write an interpreter word now
12:14:56 <fizzie> The pcworld article makes it sound like the free Xcode download was only for people registered in the iPhone or Mac developer programs, which is non-free. I distinctly remember it being really-free (well, you had to make a free account on the dev site) back around Xcode 2, I don't suppose that's changed? (There was something I couldn't find for free recently, can't recall what it was.)
12:14:58 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
12:15:07 <elliott> fizzie: It is really-free.
12:15:13 <elliott> I downloaded it, free, when I bought this.
12:15:23 <elliott> fizzie: It also comes on the installation DVDs.
12:15:28 <elliott> Perhaps that will continue, though it would be queer.
12:15:38 <elliott> (I had no installation DVD, as this is a MacBook Air, which is TOO COOL FOR OPTICAL MEDIA.)
12:16:10 <fizzie> Yes, I remember it came with the DVD too.
12:16:31 <fizzie> "If you are not a member of either the Mac or iOS Developer Program, you may purchase Xcode 4 from the Mac App Store for $4.99. If you are registered as an Apple Developer, you can download Xcode 3 for free at http://developer.apple.com/xcode."
12:16:34 -!- cheater00 has joined.
12:17:09 <fizzie> Hmm'kay, so up to 3 it's still free-free (well, with registration); but the 4 is only free download if you're in the Prograsms.
12:17:28 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
12:17:46 <elliott> The ams saga is progressing at a super-slow pace.
12:18:02 <elliott> 02:53:35 <ams> SunTzu: you are assuming i'm a guy
12:18:02 <elliott> 04:05:25 <SunTzu> what is your gender?
12:18:05 <elliott> The exciting last few chapters.
12:19:03 <elliott> <ams> SunTzu: does it matter?
12:19:03 <elliott> <ams> and what if i do not have a gender?
12:19:09 <elliott> fizzie: This be some deep philosophical shiat, yo.
12:19:29 <elliott> FACEBOOK REVEALS THAT AMS IS IN FACT A FROG
12:19:31 <elliott> http://en-gb.facebook.com/people/Alfred-M-Szmidt/1318123348
12:20:10 <elliott> <SunTzu> I am conducting a survey of real and supposed genders online. this is a follow-up on a survey done during the mid-90s/
12:20:10 <elliott> <SunTzu> anyone here using fasm?
12:20:15 <elliott> It's going to get so much more boring if ams doesn't chime in soon.
12:20:29 <elliott> <SunTzu> you dont speak for anyone but yourself.
12:20:33 -!- copumpkin has joined.
12:20:42 <elliott> I could never have relations with anyone who used gas.
12:22:32 -!- pumpkin has joined.
12:22:35 -!- pumpkin has quit (Changing host).
12:22:35 -!- pumpkin has joined.
12:22:50 <elliott> 12:19:49 <ams> nixness: don't use amazon, use your local library
12:22:57 <elliott> fizzie: he does the "boycott amazon" thing too
12:23:00 <elliott> this guy is a literal clone of rms
12:25:06 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
12:43:31 <elliott> fizzie, x86 expert: if I want like
12:43:42 <elliott> pointing to the end of the dictionary
12:43:46 <elliott> I'd have to use it like [[foo]] right?
12:43:50 <elliott> because foo is the pointer
12:44:30 <fizzie> I'm not sure how that's a x86 thing, double-indirection.
12:46:01 <elliott> fizzie: and how many hours of sleep did YOU have last night>
12:46:09 <elliott> it's just ugly cuz it eats a register :(
12:47:21 <elliott> Z E R O ( 0 DEC, 0 HEX, 0 OCT )
12:47:34 <fizzie> Yes, I've been briefed.
12:48:54 -!- asiekierka has joined.
12:49:38 <quintopia> i see you've slept as much as I have in the last 24
12:49:44 <elliott> fizzie: But have you been DEBRIEFED? -- and that's how the opening to the Worst Porn Ever goes.
12:49:46 <quintopia> but i finished that damned IPC project
12:57:57 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
12:59:32 -!- cheater00 has joined.
13:00:43 <elliott> 13:21:04 <tusho> <ais523> okoing?
13:00:44 <elliott> 13:21:07 <tusho> <oklofok> ais523: okokokokokokokokoko
13:00:44 <elliott> 13:21:10 <tusho> <ais523> why would anyone do that?
13:02:03 <quintopia> 08:42 < elliott> 13:21:04 <tusho> <ais523> okoing?
13:02:07 <quintopia> 08:42 < elliott> 13:21:07 <tusho> <oklofok> ais523: okokokokokokokokoko
13:02:12 <quintopia> 08:42 < elliott> 13:21:10 <tusho> <ais523> why would anyone do that?
13:02:27 <elliott> <quintopia> 08:42 < elliott> 13:21:04 <tusho> <ais523> okoing?
13:02:27 <elliott> <quintopia> 08:42 < elliott> 13:21:07 <tusho> <oklofok> ais523: okokokokokokokokoko
13:02:27 <elliott> <quintopia> 08:42 < elliott> 13:21:10 <tusho> <ais523> why would anyone do that?
13:03:32 <elliott> 13:49:48 * ais523 manoeuvers through a door standing on one leg and balancing a laptop on the other
13:04:02 -!- pumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
13:15:33 <elliott> this log is quite a fun, first fax is all "I'M NOT SURE I BELIEVE THE UNIVERSALLY-ACCEPTED PROOF OF THE HALTING PROBLEM", then pikhq is all "WELL-FOUNDED RECURSION? YOU'RE MAKING THAT UP. HOW CAN YOU EVEN ENFORCE THAT. AND WHAT KIND OF TYPE SYSTEM DOESN'T ALLOW SKI"
13:15:48 <elliott> 19:30:10 <pikhq> madbrain: My point is that that's bloody hard without making something that's completely and utterly useless.
13:15:49 <elliott> 19:30:23 <quantumEd> oh you are one of these pragmatists
13:24:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:30:44 -!- copumpkin has joined.
13:51:53 -!- cheater- has joined.
13:55:03 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:02:21 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
14:02:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
14:02:46 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
14:02:55 -!- augur has joined.
14:04:51 <Gregor> augur: Donate to the Gregoran Somalian Relief Fund!
14:05:44 <Gregor> (AKA the Help Gregor Get the libc.so Domain Name Fund)
14:07:52 -!- asiekierka has joined.
14:11:31 <augur> Gregor: Donate to the Augur's 25th Birthday Fund!
14:13:56 <Gregor> augur: How about you donate $50 to the Help Gregor Get the libc.so Domain Name Fund, and I'll donate $25 to the Augur's 25th Birthday Fund :P
14:15:01 -!- FireFly has joined.
14:17:55 -!- pikhq has joined.
14:17:58 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
14:18:58 <elliott> Was about to congratulate you on your economic skill
14:20:39 -!- Sgeo has joined.
14:20:50 <Sgeo> http://ultimateedition.info/Ultimate_Edition_2.8/107themes.png
14:21:04 <Sgeo> They... combined an OSX look and a Aero look?
14:22:21 <coppro> looks pretty good actually
14:22:22 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
14:22:31 <Sgeo> I was... upset by it at first, but.. yeah
14:22:37 <Sgeo> It does look kind of nic
14:22:54 <Sgeo> nice even. I don't think you have to get a domain name or anything to use it
14:28:08 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:36:04 <elliott> but first I have to figure out a suitably inappropriate language to write it in
14:37:33 <elliott> ais523: now _that_ sounds painful
14:37:51 <ais523> ADVENT was written in Fortran, it was one of the worst possible languages for it
14:37:57 <ais523> but at the time, the only real alternative would have been COBOL
14:38:03 <ais523> which is just as inappropriate
14:38:05 <elliott> which would have been perfect
14:38:14 <ais523> elliott: well, definitely, given the langs available at the time
14:38:29 <ais523> but I'm not sure if LISP would have been widespread in terms of people knowing and using it
14:38:32 -!- Gregor has set channel mode: +b lisp!*@ai.mit.edu.
14:38:32 <elliott> text adventure game == symbolic manipulation (parsing) + list manipulation (inventory, objects, map)
14:38:38 <ais523> it's always been a sort of language for hipster academics
14:38:45 <ais523> I don't think it's ever been mainstream
14:39:09 <elliott> ais523: "Crowther met and married Pat Crowther while at MIT."
14:39:21 <elliott> ais523: so he was probably at MIT in the 60s
14:39:32 <elliott> ais523: good chance he knew of LISP
14:39:34 <Sgeo> "Google Chrome can't display the webpage because your computer isn't connected to the Internet.
14:39:46 <elliott> ais523: Don Woods was at Stanford, I'd be very surprised if he didn't when he extended the game, but of course by then it was too lat
14:40:01 <ais523> Sgeo: are you sure you're connected to the Internet? you could try contacting someone over IRC to check
14:40:32 <ais523> elliott: well, it's known he knew SNOBOL (due to writing INTERCAL-72 in it), and it would have been a pretty appropriate language too
14:40:41 <elliott> I didn't see his line, clearly his internet tubes are broken.
14:40:58 <elliott> ais523: ah, SNOBOL's possibly the only language _more_ suitable
14:41:23 <ais523> Sgeo: elliott's topic about facepalming just got thrown into sharp relief for me
14:41:34 <Sgeo> ais523, I'm not allowed to joke?
14:42:01 <ais523> not if it's even more obtuse than Vorpal's jokes
14:42:06 <elliott> Sgeo: you do realise that pretending to be stupid for the purpose of humour all the time will eventually cause you to be indistinguishable and therefore identical to a stupid person?
14:42:38 <ais523> when I'm pretending to be stupid for the purpose of humour, I generally make my statements pretty obviously self-contradictory to make sure
14:44:09 <Sgeo> Need to go to school, bye
14:44:30 <fizzie> FOTRAN and networking sounds a bit of an odd fit. I guess with the C interop stuff you could just use the BSD sockets API, but still.
14:44:46 <ais523> fizzie: elliott did ask for an inappropriate language
14:44:53 <ais523> and I was trying to pick one that was genuinely useful, just not for that purpose
14:45:11 <elliott> i need a big (two hundred megabyte) list of bytestrings that i can select randomly from
14:45:16 <elliott> that are read from files that i lightly string-process
14:45:22 <elliott> that would not be fun in Forth
14:45:32 <ais523> nor in most of the other langs suggested
14:45:39 <elliott> maybe I'll use C++, the most esoteric of languages!
14:45:49 <ais523> although I imagine it'd be relatively simple in Ursala, actually
14:45:53 <ais523> that is, compared to the rest of Ursala
14:46:12 <elliott> can ursala even do networking?
14:47:19 <ais523> it likely has a library, or at least FFI, for it
14:47:27 <ais523> worst case you could just loop the program through netcat
14:49:30 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
14:50:37 <elliott> if J had networking it'd be a good choice :)
14:50:43 <elliott> but it's probably complicated.
14:52:48 <elliott> ais523: how does overlambda fare?
14:57:43 <ais523> I'm busy at work, thus everything is stalled temporarily
14:58:13 <elliott> ais523: I mean, at the problem of optbot
14:58:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
15:03:11 <ais523> oh, currently badly because I still haven't decided how to do I/O
15:03:28 <ais523> it's such an ugly blemish on the pure maths of just calculating things
15:04:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:07:17 <ais523> wow, I just typoed to a one-character web address (r.com) and found it a 404
15:07:25 <ais523> who'd have a one-character .com, and not put a web page there?
15:08:39 <ais523> gah, someone on Reddit claims that my argument that that rule 110 thing isn't a TCness proof is flawed because real computers don't have infinite memory either
15:08:42 <ais523> and is more upvoted than me
15:09:49 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:10:19 <Sgeo> So... I missed my bus
15:10:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, quick, http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/g0d5g/breaking_news_html5css3_is_turing_complete/c1k03fg?context=3
15:11:23 <Sgeo> "Programming languages can be in the abstract, if they don't insist on infinite memory"
15:11:28 <elliott> hmm, was gonna go all "jeez PH you are always so harsh", but then the guy really was stupid
15:11:41 <elliott> i think i'm just going to have to upvote every comment ais523 makes on principle, though
15:12:03 <elliott> ais523: you should have added "AND I WON THE WOLFRAM PRIZE SO YOU SHOULD ALL LISTEN TO MY EXPERTISE"; instant karma
15:12:54 * elliott reads Wolfram blab about what software he uses.
15:13:03 <elliott> my guess: Mathematica, Mathematica, Mathematica, all running on a kernel made out of Mathematica.
15:14:04 <Sgeo> Ooh, mathematica kernel?
15:15:28 <elliott> "What would be your dream setup?
15:15:28 <elliott> Mathematica + Wolfram|Alpha everywhere!"
15:17:02 <Sgeo> I'm tired. I opened SyllableOS page and ReactOS page, looked at the Syllable page, and was ... interested in ReactOS's new BeOS-based design
15:17:48 <Sgeo> I need sleep maybe
15:24:09 <elliott> I have no idea what you are talking about.
15:24:28 <elliott> I have no idea what you are talking about.
15:24:41 <Sgeo> I only remember due to a r/circlejerk post that was rather... mean
15:24:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Okay, uh, question: Seriously?
15:25:08 <elliott> If yes: Stay classy, Gawker.
15:25:10 -!- pikhq has joined.
15:25:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Source plz.
15:25:50 <Phantom_Hoover> http://twitter.com/Adrianchen/status/45054116405325824
15:25:54 <elliott> "Have a feeling lucidending is about to have a Second Coming on @reddit... Maybe this is the start of our first e-religion?"
15:26:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That sounds like a ``joke''.
15:26:11 <elliott> You may be unfamiliar with the ``term''.
15:26:33 <Sgeo> elliott, read the rest of the tweets
15:26:40 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I do have problems with detecting jokes which give no indication of being such, yes.
15:27:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I have a confession to make: I am secretly President of the World.
15:27:21 <elliott> Unqualified, blunt extravagant claim that makes no sense == joke.
15:27:36 <Sgeo> "I don't think anyone was hurt by lucidreaming. It just made Reddit's hardheaded skepticism seem absurd and selective."
15:27:52 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:27:54 <Sgeo> ...lucidreaming?
15:28:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, it doesn't.
15:28:16 <Sgeo> I have seen some suggestion that it was a hoax
15:28:37 <elliott> Hello oerjan, fill the topic with things that aren't so tediously stupid as to agitate my incredibly sleep-deprived self.
15:29:43 <Sgeo> http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index.ssf/2011/03/post_45.html
15:29:50 <elliott> Show me where he is acting entirely seriously about it.
15:30:46 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, FFS, *saying that he was behind an IAmA which had no verification is not absurd*.
15:31:26 <Sgeo> He does seriously consider it to be a major hoax, at least.
15:31:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: please do not irritate me with your failure to detect jokingness in offhand Twitter posts when I've had this little sleep.
15:32:06 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, then please get some sleep rather than just saying I'm wrong and being confrontational.
15:32:45 -!- oerjan has set topic: ZYGOHISTOMORPHIC PREPROMORPHISMS | LATIMERIA CHALUMNAE | CLASSIFICATION OF FINITE SIMPLE GROUPS | BULLET CLUSTER | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:33:19 -!- asiekierka has joined.
15:33:36 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, "@owengood haha yeah, I did some research on that today and came to the same conclusion. Reddit is so full of shit."
15:34:05 <Sgeo> I think Adrianchen considers it to be a hoax proving Reddit's gullibility in some circumstances, but may have been joking about being the one who started it.
15:36:38 <Sgeo> I have a Scumbag Ola Bini to make
15:38:43 <oerjan> what did poor Ola do to be called a scumbag
15:39:06 <Sgeo> Seph is supposed to have immutable objects, but mutable lexical variables
15:39:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
15:39:26 <Sgeo> Closures will close over those mutable lexical variables and allow them to be mutated...
15:40:03 <Sgeo> foo: #(n, #(i, n += i)),
15:40:16 <Sgeo> Um, I don't know what that last , is
15:40:22 <Sgeo> but bar = foo(1)
15:40:36 <Sgeo> Those will mutate n
15:41:32 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
15:42:14 <Sgeo> Although hmm, just because it's abusable doesn't make it evil. Maybe.
15:42:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
15:42:41 <oerjan> so basically Ola Bini is an evil hybrid of me, Vorpal and Gregor.
15:43:21 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:43:32 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.06: 32k to Cambodia, 8x64k+4x32k+16k to China, 8k+3x4k+2k+1k to Japan, 4k to Taiwan, 1k to India, /48 to Indonesia, /32 to Australia.
15:43:37 <Sgeo> Mind you, I don't mind the mutable lexical variables, just closures giving write access to those as opposed to read-only access
15:44:12 <oerjan> Gregor: the source of his hat is obvious!
15:44:13 <Sgeo> Anyways, school: Take two
15:44:19 -!- Gregor has set channel mode: -b lisp!*@ai.mit.edu.
15:44:26 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:44:38 <Sgeo> BeholdMyGlory is a dialect of Lisp.
15:44:38 <Gregor> Honey's still banned though.
15:44:58 <Sgeo> School: Take two: For real
15:45:04 -!- cheater00 has joined.
15:46:39 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
15:49:15 -!- augur has joined.
15:50:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
15:57:16 <oerjan> <elliott> it's menial busywork, it's not like projects where I can architecture myself way out of space and then realise it'll be an unholy bitch to do
15:57:30 <oerjan> THEY WON'T RECOGNISE JAPANESE ONCE YOU'RE FINISHED WITH IT
16:02:03 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
16:02:10 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
16:06:27 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:09:21 <elliott> oerjan: i like the idea that i can butcher japanese to the point when i've learned a complete language that nobody else in the world has
16:09:46 <olsner> you're going to fork japanese?
16:14:50 <ais523> I was in a meeting, and saw I'd been nickpinged but didn't respond to it because someone else was looking at my scren
16:15:36 <elliott> I have a dream, where we all live in a world where IRCing at arbitrary points is socially acceptable!
16:15:41 <ais523> (I didn't see who'd done it as I didn't have IRC focused)
16:18:26 <elliott> wow, IE6 is "only" 3,482 days old
16:22:00 <ais523> heh, just noticed on reddit: hg fetch == git pull; git fetch == hg pull
16:22:10 <ais523> well, as equivalent as you can be for two fundamentally different DVCSes
16:22:30 <elliott> ais523: fundamentally different?
16:22:33 <elliott> git and hg are almost identical :)
16:22:43 <elliott> well, as identical as they come
16:25:11 <elliott> bleh, all languages suck at being amusingly imperfect for a certain task
16:33:14 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: well, being amusingly imperfect for a certain task is _hard_).
16:34:28 <ais523> hmm, The Old New Thing posted the topmost window story again, this time ending with a list of things that programs might to do be really topmost
16:34:36 <ais523> and the comments have come up with more and more ridiculous ideas
16:45:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:45:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Seriously, get some sleep if it means you're going to be like this.
16:46:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I do, in fact, have things to do other than sit on IRC, strange as it may seem.
16:47:30 <elliott> well, no, i am always right
16:47:54 <ais523> wow, I just got what looks like probably a 419 scam, that's so confused I can't even follow what it's actually trying to do
16:48:10 <ais523> although I like the way they typoed "scan copy" as "scam copy" later
16:48:24 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I'm fairly sure you've been wrong but I am not so petty as to keep a list for easy reference.
16:48:59 <ais523> I think they're offering to send me a Mastercard with $10.000,000.00, MILLION DOLLARS
16:49:17 <ais523> as long as I pay a $650 shipping charge via Western Union
16:49:21 <elliott> ais523: that's a... good amount of millions!
16:49:37 <ais523> obviously, that's a massively large shipping charge for one credit card, they're clearly trying to rip me off
16:49:52 <ais523> also, the card apparently ends with ten zeros
16:50:03 <ais523> which is suspicious in its own right
16:50:46 -!- cheater- has joined.
16:52:45 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
16:56:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
16:56:04 <oklopol> elliott has been wrong many times
16:56:34 <oklopol> you have been wrong AT LEAST 0 times.
17:00:52 <oklopol> i suggest you say something stupid a few times to cover your tracks
17:01:02 -!- Behold has joined.
17:01:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
17:09:53 <oklopol> do you directly see "if G is an undirected graph, G^c is the graph where (u, v) is an edge iff it's not an edge in G. show that for all undirected G, either G or G^c is connected"
17:13:02 <oklopol> do you directly see the solution
17:13:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Erm, wait, I was missing something, but I think I can extend what I had.
17:14:11 <elliott> oklopol: lol ur homework on irc
17:14:40 <oklopol> yeah this was today's homework
17:15:08 <oklopol> i mean we presented the solutions today
17:15:35 <oklopol> this one takes about 5 seconds if you've played with graphs a lot, i'm just wondering if it's noobie friendly
17:15:47 <oklopol> well i'm sure it took me at least 20 seconds
17:16:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not exactly a noobie to graph theory, but I've not exactly covered it in depth.
17:17:25 <oklopol> have you done a lot of problems, or have you read some stuff on wp?
17:18:34 <oklopol> not really, i was hoping anyone could do this
17:18:48 <oklopol> there's this guy who's wondering if he should take math or cs
17:19:05 <oklopol> and i'm trying to find something fun for him to prove so he'll learn to luv the mathies :(
17:25:44 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
17:29:22 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
17:32:33 -!- variable has joined.
17:33:58 <elliott> geometry should be outlawed
17:34:16 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes, we know you've been scarred by GCSE "geometry".
17:34:47 <elliott> well because topology is what they call geometry that isn't shit and here you insert the troll face unicode codepoint
17:38:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh also I actually came up with a decent name for my computer.
17:39:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WHAT IS IT
17:40:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Considering adrienchen referred to lucidending as "lucidreaming" in his second Tweet, the probability of it actually being him has crawled down to -24.
17:40:15 <elliott> oklopol: my friend at oxford is doing topology and he's such a bitch about it, but that's because he's stupid, unlike you
17:40:19 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes, but if I get another one I can call it "dyson" and I will have a SYSTEMATIC NAMING SCHEME
17:40:25 <elliott> (he's also the guy who's stupid about japanese, basically a total life failure)
17:40:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: dyson has to be a Mac: a bunch of marketing claiming innovation for shit that's been done for decades.
17:41:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: He isn't, I just like shitting all over his reputation on IRC and then pasting the aftermath to him.
17:42:01 <elliott> I get the feeling it quite upsets him, but, haha, he can't do anything about it. Except all the things he can do about it.
17:42:29 <elliott> or just like not talking to me
17:42:35 <elliott> he still hasn't ventured into this chan because he's like a total noob
17:42:43 <elliott> would you like to flame him, i could arrange for him to come in now
17:43:17 <oklopol> i thought people at oxford only research the hip topics
17:45:09 <oklopol> well i don't know, that algebraic topology stuff?
17:45:28 <elliott> oklopol: he apparently "reefuses", i think he might be illiterate
17:45:39 <cheater-> Suppose in each G and G^c there are exactly two classes of points which create connected subgraphs, A1, A2, B1, B2. By intersecting the partitions (finding common sub-partitions of the set of points of G) we will get {Cij = Ai n Bj}, a partition of the set of points of G. For a fixed i, Cij are all pairwise connected in G, and for a fixed j, in G^c. For two certain pairs (k, l) != (m, n) there is a set Ckl. In Ckl no points from Bl are G^
17:45:39 <cheater-> c-connected to points in Bn, this means then that all points from Ckl c Ak are G-connected to points from Cin for all i, specifically to points of Cmn. This means that Cmn c Am is empty.
17:45:44 <oklopol> and what do you mean by "being a bitch"
17:46:06 <elliott> all these questions cannot be explained by science.
17:46:20 <elliott> mostly he just mentions he's doing topology work to me and i'm like DUDE stop bothering me with all this TRIVIAL BULLSHIT, that's my job
17:46:44 <oklopol> cheater-: did you get a contradiction?
17:46:56 <cheater-> oklopol: DID i get a contradiction?
17:47:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: since the holy hand of oerjan decreed it so.
17:47:14 <elliott> he is our comforting guide.
17:47:26 <cheater-> oklopol: what does it tell you that all Cmn are empty?
17:48:49 <cheater-> notice how i went from having a finite amount of sets in the beginning to having an arbitrary later on without changing my assumptions
17:49:22 <oklopol> not that it looked wrong anyway
17:49:28 <cheater-> it's just cause normally people see an example with an arbitrary amount of elements and they forget to check what happens if you have 1 element or 2 elements
17:49:41 <cheater-> so i decided to point out that possibility specifically
17:50:14 <cheater-> no, it's still correct because it's just a proof for the basic situation where you have two disconnected subgraphs each
17:50:36 <cheater-> but change the first sentence to A1, ..., AN, B1, ..., BM and you then have the general situation
17:52:34 <oklopol> why is Cmn empty as a conclusion?
17:53:00 <cheater-> because otherwise Cmn and Ckl are G-connected and G^c-connected
17:53:28 <cheater-> this can only take place if those sets are empty
17:54:00 <cheater-> remember, it's either connected in G XOR G^c
17:54:04 <cheater-> never both!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111
17:54:14 <cheater-> or else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111
17:54:56 <elliott> oklopol does not know the secrets of the unvierses
17:56:42 <oklopol> well maybe i'll start asking questions, since i can't see what you mean
17:56:44 <oklopol> "For a fixed i, Cij are all pairwise connected in G"
17:57:29 <oklopol> you mean, for every j != j', two vertices v, v' in Cij and Cij' respectively, there's a... path? between v and v'
18:00:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:00:40 -!- sebbu has joined.
18:06:10 <oklopol> anyhow i'll give a solution just for fun: let G be disconnected. then consider any two connected components G_1 and G_2 of G. then for all v \in G_1 and w \in G_2, there is an edge (v, w) in G^c. this means: if you take u and v in G, if they are in different components, there's an edge between them. if they are in the same component H, then take w \notin H, and you'll have the path u, w, v
18:07:54 <cheater-> type it again if there were any errors
18:08:10 <oklopol> you can choose w because G is disconnected, and the edge (v, w) must be in G^c because otherwise v and w are in the same component.
18:08:20 <oklopol> well just two obvious remarks
18:08:42 <cheater-> and is that it for your proof?
18:08:47 <oklopol> let G be disconnected. then consider any two connected components G_1 != G_2 of G. then for all v \in G_1 and w \in G_2, there is an edge (v, w) in G^c. this means: if you take u and v in G, if they are in different components, there's an edge between them. if they are in the same component H, then take w \notin H, and you'll have the path u, w, v
18:09:02 <oklopol> cheater-: yes, that's it, that shows G^c is connected
18:09:09 <oklopol> i give an explicit path between any u and v
18:10:42 <oklopol> you assume that both G and G^c are disconnected, and find a contradiction, but i don't really know how to interpret some of your claims, probably because i'm slow, but anyway.
18:11:41 <cheater-> you haven't proven that G connected => G^c disconnected
18:11:56 <oklopol> well no, but that's not true anyway
18:12:02 <oklopol> you just have to prove one of them is
18:12:14 <oklopol> well it's obviously not true
18:12:21 <cheater-> maybe G connected and G^c connected
18:12:54 <oklopol> well that's a valid point i guess. whatever it means
18:13:19 <cheater-> i thought you were trying to prove G connected <=> G^c disconnected
18:13:37 <cheater-> but you're only trying to prove G connected or G^c connected.
18:13:56 <oklopol> it's so obvious the xor is not true that it didn't occur to me
18:14:01 <oklopol> nah, maybe it's not that obvious
18:14:16 <oklopol> but it's true: consider a path of length 3, u-v-w-z
18:15:14 <cheater-> just take a square with an antenna for G, and G^c is connected too
18:15:35 <cheater-> square with an antenna is a five point graph which contains a square, and additionally has a point which is connected to one of the square's vertices.
18:15:36 <oklopol> or that, but mine is the smallest example
18:16:17 <oklopol> (that's not why i chose it, but at least it's a good rationalization)
18:17:16 <oklopol> so if your proof works for the xor thing, maybe you have some detail wrong in there and i don't have to continue trying to guess what you mean
18:18:37 <cheater-> it proves you can't have G and G^c disconnected at the same time.
18:19:15 <cheater-> have you read about the khan academy oklopol
18:20:12 <cheater-> it's some sort of funny school where they do homework at school and lectures individually at home
18:20:24 <cheater-> every time i read someone talking about it i think
18:20:31 <cheater-> KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNN!!!!!!!!!!!! academy
18:20:58 <cheater-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnSnfiUI54
18:22:03 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I don't actually have ChanServ access, so I'm only an op as long as my connection remains stable :P
18:22:14 <cheater-> and today it's a double feature of beyonce and eminem
18:29:35 -!- elliott has changed nick to optbot.
18:30:40 -!- optbot has changed nick to elliott.
18:36:47 <elliott> Hey Gregor, guess what simple operation Python makes low-level and hard
18:38:37 <elliott> Reading a line from a socket. Although it seems there's some newish API to do that automatically.
18:45:51 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:48:09 -!- cpressey has joined.
18:48:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, <oklopol> do you directly see "if G is an undirected graph, G^c is the graph where (u, v) is an edge iff it's not an edge in G. show that for all undirected G, either G or G^c is connected"
18:49:12 <elliott> Productivity is a myth, or something.
18:50:49 <cpressey> sos. at pycon. surrounded by pythonistas. it's creepy. send reinforcements kthx. sos
18:51:29 <elliott> Mistake 2: Go to PyCon, do not prepare for pythonistas.
18:51:59 <elliott> I like this new SOS-over-IRC, though.
18:52:06 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:53:19 <elliott> :optbot!~optbot@91.105.95.39 JOIN :#estoteric
18:53:19 <elliott> :asimov.freenode.net MODE #estoteric +ns
18:53:19 <elliott> :asimov.freenode.net 353 optbot @ #estoteric :@optbot
18:53:19 <elliott> :asimov.freenode.net 366 optbot #estoteric :End of /NAMES list.
18:53:22 <elliott> look at my coding skill. look at it.
18:53:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo has left in fear of the sheer difficulty of the trivial problem.
18:53:57 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: he solved it!
18:55:35 -!- optbot has joined.
18:55:36 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | but you can *create* data structures.
18:55:42 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | <Ilari> But some people do expect the EV criteria to slide (race to the bottom in same manner as has happened to DV certs). <-- DV?.
18:56:02 -!- optbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:01:56 -!- optbot has joined.
19:01:56 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | SyntaxError: invalid syntax.
19:02:41 -!- optbot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:03:04 <elliott> oh, i actually filtered out highlights and things...
19:03:22 -!- optbot has joined.
19:03:22 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | Perhaps somebody would be converted..
19:04:05 -!- optbot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:06:39 -!- optbot has joined.
19:06:39 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | hmm, /me thinks.
19:06:55 -!- optbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:07:22 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:07:33 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
19:08:58 <cpressey> "You had me at Py_INCREF(Py_None);..."
19:09:12 <elliott> Getting a reference to None?
19:09:22 <elliott> Does this imply that None could theoretically be garbage-collected?
19:09:31 <elliott> The philosophical implications are astounding.
19:10:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think cpressey is pioneering the Emergency Write-Only IRC Link.
19:11:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: This is because he wrote the emergency client in Python, which has no convenient socket readline function, as I have recently discussed.
19:11:18 <elliott> I suggest we send in five USB sticks containing different versions of GHC.
19:11:24 <elliott> And by god, let's hope of them gets to him.
19:11:33 <elliott> Plus a prerelease CD of @ of course.
19:12:02 <Phantom_Hoover> He's a Pythonista; I could send him in to infiltrate the ranks and carry supplies.
19:12:15 <elliott> You think he would carry GHC?
19:12:27 <elliott> He'd take one look at it and say, "this has punctuation and things. That's not Pythonic.
19:12:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They can SMELL it.
19:13:00 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, pretend it was something else by encrypting it?
19:13:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Their sense of smell can break RSA encryption.
19:14:07 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, hmm. Write one program to transform arbitrary files into vaguely-valid Python programs.
19:14:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: YOU CANNOT DEFEAT THE PYTHONISTA'S NOSE FOR PYTHONICITY.
19:15:06 <cpressey> Yes, Py_None is a Python object like any other. When you assign a variable to it, you have to increment its usage count.
19:15:31 <elliott> cpressey: Please don't tell me Py_None is allocated on the heap.
19:15:38 <elliott> The fact that small integers are is bad enough (with a CACHE for the first 256).
19:15:41 <cpressey> I have no idea & I'm not going to check.
19:15:53 <elliott> It would be awesome if, like, True and False were garbage-collectable.
19:16:43 <elliott> Maybe Python's garbage collector is Turing-complete.
19:28:22 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: oh, i forgot about those. yeah. i should totally give a lightning talk on "Implementing numerical types between Real and Complex"
19:30:31 <cpressey> cheater-: I dunno but the Python docs suggest they went to great lengths to allow it.
19:30:57 <cheater-> cpressey: oh, that's what you mean
19:31:18 <cpressey> i don't like the fact that i knew that you had to pay for XCode 4 before Phantom_Hoover mentioned it.
19:31:26 <cpressey> i have no business with such information.
19:31:49 <cheater-> i'm successful at forgetting things i shouldn't know.
19:31:49 <cpressey> i'm implementing LNUSP in Java during the breaks to keep myself sane
19:32:17 <cheater-> cpressey: what about implementing a reactive asynchronous programming framework in haskell?
19:32:20 <elliott> cpressey: implementing things in java.
19:32:24 <elliott> that's how i stay sane too!
19:32:56 <elliott> Implement Java in Sierpiński numbers.
19:33:04 <elliott> That sounds far more practical, realistic.
19:33:09 <cheater-> Implement sierpiński in java numbers.
19:33:16 <Phantom_Hoover> (Note: I have no idea if either addition or multiplication are closed.)
19:33:27 <cheater-> i'm the only person who has ń on their keyboard without sticky keys.
19:37:59 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: trivially not closed under addition
19:38:52 <oklopol> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierpinski_number talking about this?
19:39:58 <oklopol> hmm right i suppose that might not contain all of R :)
19:40:43 <Phantom_Hoover> It's the set of points in the Sierpiński gasket embedded into C.
19:41:47 <oklopol> most certainly not if it contains two straight lines
19:42:04 <oklopol> i don't really know how you do the embedding
19:51:15 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:51:15 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
19:51:15 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:53:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
19:54:44 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
20:01:41 <cheater-> oklolol: how come you're studying graphs right now?
20:01:59 <oklopol> er i'm just taking a few courses at random
20:02:23 <oklopol> no, i'm not doing any geometry
20:02:42 <cheater-> then what course has this come up in?
20:03:31 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:03:46 <oklopol> i'm taking graph theory, cellular automata, group theory (representation stuff) and complexity theory atm
20:04:13 <oklopol> graph theory is geometry? i suppose they both have lines and points.
20:04:24 <elliott> graph theory = topology = geometry = peano arithmetic
20:04:26 <cheater-> graph theory is very much geometry.
20:04:43 <cpressey> how do you represent an angle in... never mind
20:04:46 <oklopol> well it's a really simple course on ct, we're just doing the basic stuff like showing things np-complete
20:05:14 <elliott> cpressey: asking questions. that's the first mistake.
20:05:24 <oklopol> i don't really see what the connections between graph theory and geometry are, but maybe there are some
20:05:49 <elliott> oklopol: the connections are elaborately laid out in the theory of "cheater is a stupids"
20:06:26 <oklopol> i have a lot of benefit of the doubt to spare.
20:06:30 <cheater-> oklopol: well there are several connections such as simplex geometry, topology, etc
20:06:38 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, read logs
20:06:40 <elliott> i'm all out of benefit of the doubt, can i have some oklopol?
20:07:01 <cheater-> iddiott, i would appreciate it if you actually learnt some of what you're yapping about, as opposed to copypasting reddit.
20:07:01 <oklopol> simplices give a sort of connection. i don't know anything about them.
20:07:02 <Sgeo> Why did you paste that at me?
20:07:13 <Sgeo> elliott, to see what I missed, in terms of things directed at me or about me
20:07:46 <oklopol> what do you do with them except implement groups?
20:07:48 <cheater-> oklopol: mainly because they bring a lot of geometry stuff down to finite numbers
20:07:56 <Sgeo> Also, I don't know graph theory
20:08:09 <oklopol> you can implement fun stuff as fundamental groups of simplicial complexes right?
20:08:18 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:08:24 <cheater-> well the euler characteristic is one powerful tool that's easy to use with a simplicial complex
20:08:57 <cheater-> it's a number that is the same for the same kinds of shapes
20:09:17 <oerjan> ha ha oklopol doesn't know what euler characteristic is
20:09:24 * oerjan will now be murdered by elliott
20:09:34 <oklopol> i certainly don't know the term no
20:09:42 <elliott> it's about how you oil things
20:10:00 <oklopol> so it's an invariant of some sort?
20:10:02 <cheater-> also quite often if you get a theorem that works on a simplicial complex you can generalize it to anything
20:10:42 <cpressey> and if you get one that doesn't work, you can generalize that to anything, too.
20:11:03 <Sgeo> Maybe I shouldn't complain about things written iin 1991 being boringly old
20:11:36 <cheater-> now for any orientable surface you get a graph which is that orientable surface but deflated
20:11:49 <elliott> everything is everything else (proof follows by induction0
20:11:57 <oklopol> i don't even know the definition of an orientable surface
20:12:08 <cheater-> well think for example of "genus" surfaces
20:12:21 <cheater-> sphere, donut, donut with two holes, ...
20:12:39 <elliott> an orientable surface is one that can't pronounce Rs
20:13:12 <Sgeo> I don't remember why I gave up on Mercury
20:13:17 <elliott> <elliott> an orientable surface is one that can't pronounce Rs
20:13:21 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:13:34 <cheater-> Sgeo: it makes you psychotic even in very low amounts?
20:13:41 <oerjan> elliott: somehow i couldn't read your line correctly
20:13:44 <cheater-> Sgeo: it gives you kidney failure?
20:13:51 <oerjan> must be a temporary disorientation
20:14:26 <Sgeo> If "IRC?" is not blatantly only pretending to be dumb, how is what cheater said...
20:15:03 <elliott> i need an autoresponder script.
20:15:17 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:15:22 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:15:23 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
20:15:23 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:15:23 <oerjan> elliott: that was not a troll, i almost made such a pun myself
20:15:37 <elliott> oerjan: I never said that line in particular was a troll.
20:16:25 <oklopol> yeah, just everything he says
20:17:26 <cheater-> oerjan: now if you deflate a surface and get the graph, they have the same fundamental group
20:17:41 <oklopol> what's the fundamental group of a graph?
20:17:57 <oerjan> cheater-: you don't need to explain algebraic topology to me
20:18:23 <cheater-> sorry, i was just thinking "that guy starting with o"
20:18:40 <cheater-> oklopol: have oerjan explain it to you :D
20:18:54 <oklopol> i don't need it explained, i need it defined
20:19:55 <cheater-> oklopol: seriously though, it's the same as in a continuous space
20:20:03 <cheater-> it's just the set of different loops.
20:21:11 <cheater-> just imagine you embed your graph in R^n, and imagine the fundamental group there
20:21:14 -!- pumpkin has joined.
20:21:14 -!- pumpkin has quit (Changing host).
20:21:15 -!- pumpkin has joined.
20:22:34 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklopol> i don't really know how you do the embedding
20:23:00 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:23:06 <cheater-> you take some points somewhere randomly
20:23:14 <Phantom_Hoover> You put the triangle with one side on the [0,1] interval and the point in the positive imaginary direction.
20:24:03 <oklopol> so what graph could you get this way for instance?
20:24:27 <oklopol> what graph has Z^2 as its fundamental group
20:25:09 <Phantom_Hoover> (I did actually come up with a possible practical use for this, but it was even more crazy.)
20:25:27 <oklopol> you get a free group from that
20:25:43 <oerjan> oklopol: ok that may be tricky
20:25:44 <cheater-> oh right you were answering the later question
20:26:03 -!- ab5tract has joined.
20:26:18 <oerjan> i was thinking abelianized fundamental group (aka H_1 homology)
20:26:49 <elliott> truly the most inspired thing i've ever said.
20:26:50 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, "abelianised" is such a cool word I am going to drop it into every conversation I can.
20:26:56 <cheater-> well the torus surface has Z^2
20:27:09 <cheater-> how do you get a graph this way.. hmm
20:27:12 <elliott> "what did you do to my dog?"
20:27:18 <elliott> "its organs are everywhere."
20:27:20 <oerjan> cheater-: erm not as fundamental group, no
20:27:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone give me a name for a piece of software to call "osmium".
20:27:42 <cheater-> oerjan: surface, not the donut with the inside
20:27:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Uh. Osmium?
20:27:59 <cheater-> or... wait, what is the fundamental group there?
20:28:20 <oerjan> cheater-: still not. the two directions you can circle don't commute
20:28:30 <oklopol> the fundamental group of a doughnut is Z^2
20:28:54 <oklopol> and that's impossible to implement as the fundamental group of a graph i think
20:29:00 <oerjan> oklopol: erm reference
20:29:03 <cheater-> The fundamental group of the torus is just the direct product of the fundamental group of the circle with itself:
20:29:04 <cheater-> \pi_1(\mathbb{T}^2) = \pi_1(S^1) \times \pi_1(S^1) \cong \mathbb{Z} \times \mathbb{Z}.
20:29:09 <oklopol> oerjan: i just heard the definition, i don't have one
20:29:25 <cheater-> oklopol: yes, i was talking about the donut, not the torus surface
20:29:50 <elliott> <oerjan> wait wtf i'm wrong
20:30:04 <oerjan> "More generally, the fundamental group of any graph G is a free group."
20:30:12 <oklopol> sorry about being unclear, i'm of course talking about the outside, because the inside is just the circle, topologically
20:30:12 <oerjan> elliott: actually i'm not quite sure
20:30:22 <elliott> oerjan: you're probably right :-))))
20:30:26 <oklopol> well fundamental groupally
20:30:30 <Sgeo> I should learn emacs
20:30:38 <Sgeo> Just about every fun language I read about has an emacs mode
20:30:46 <Sgeo> Erm, not that I don't know the basics of emacs
20:30:53 <Sgeo> I just need to force myself to use it
20:31:26 <cheater-> oklopol: yes, but the circle can get reduced to a graph too
20:31:32 <oklopol> i mean if you have a path that's a circle, then obviously that path is just... well, that path
20:31:34 <elliott> oklopol and oerjan mathsing, Sgeo making us all palm our faces
20:31:35 <cheater-> (finite number of elements = easier for counting)
20:31:54 <oklopol> cheater-: yeah but that's a trivial case
20:32:03 <oklopol> even your silly definition of a fundamental group works there
20:32:13 <oklopol> so i didn't take it as a counterexample of it not being silly.
20:32:32 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Notepad%2B%2B_screenshot2.png
20:32:38 <Sgeo> Emacs works well for Clojure, as far as I can tell. It probably works well for most languages someone wrote a major mode for.
20:32:40 -!- TLUL has joined.
20:32:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I've changed my mind, that's the best tab completion thing ever.
20:33:12 <oklopol> cheater-: well because it just gives you free groups
20:33:46 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: That was some PHP code, and explode is a common PHP function ...
20:33:53 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, please tell me you've at least heard of Clojure, even if you're morally opposed...
20:34:25 <oerjan> ok i was definitely wrong
20:34:28 <oerjan> "Intuitively speaking, this means that a closed path that circles the torus' "hole" (say, a circle that traces out a particular latitude) and then circles the torus' "body" (say, a circle that traces out a particular longitude) can be deformed to a path that circles the body and then the hole."
20:34:29 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, what's so horrible about Clojure?
20:34:32 <elliott> People code Lisp dialects in non-Emacs?
20:34:40 <Sgeo> Besides being on the JVM
20:34:42 <elliott> That sounds like Welcome to Pain City, Pain Population: You.
20:34:57 <Sgeo> elliott, what about DrRacket?
20:35:06 <oklopol> oerjan: what were you wrong about?
20:35:07 <fizzie> Vim's Scheme indentation mode used to suck incredible amounts of suck. It's better nowadays.
20:35:36 <elliott> fizzie: Well, it's written in vimscript. I have a feeling even writing suck in that is a chore.
20:35:42 <oklopol> no, fizzie is stating a statistic: people considered it sucky before
20:35:56 <Sgeo> So one or two people in some IRC channel don't know elementary CS math
20:36:05 <Sgeo> Big whoop. Unless it was Rick
20:36:15 <oerjan> oklopol: about the torus giving a free group.
20:36:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, at least one of them was directly involved in the language.
20:36:34 <oklopol> did you say the torus gives you a free group?
20:36:45 <oklopol> as its topological fundamental group?
20:37:19 <cheater-> no torus gives you Z or Z^2 depending on which torus you mean (full or hollow)
20:38:03 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.taxfreegold.co.uk/osmiumpricesusdollars.html
20:38:08 <elliott> Gregor: For context, not a single person in #clojure would state outright that O(log_32 n) = O(log n).
20:38:30 <elliott> Gregor: A majority argued that they were the same in theory but not in practice, and a small minority argued that it was just harmless semantics.
20:38:41 <elliott> Gregor: SO ONE OR TWO PEOPLE IN SOME IRC CHANNEL DON'T KNOW ELEMENTARY CS MATH HURP DERP
20:38:48 <cheater-> elliott: probably because this notation is illegal.
20:39:09 <cheater-> elliott: but that just might be coming up after you get out of high school.
20:39:34 <oklopol> oh right elliott is just a little kid xD
20:39:44 <oklopol> cheater-: are you a mathematician
20:40:22 <oklopol> elliott: well after he pointed out that you are younger than him, i immediately understood why order notation is illegal
20:40:23 <Sgeo> cheater-, let's just say that even I know what the notation is.
20:40:33 <elliott> oklopol: has he used the hilarious name "idiott" yet
20:40:51 <cheater-> Sgeo: there's no such thing as O(x) = O(y) in mathematics.
20:40:56 <oklopol> he clearly knows more math than me and oerjan put together
20:41:23 <Sgeo> cheater-, so how would I describe that O(2) and O(1) are the same thing?
20:41:26 <oklopol> cheater-: O(f) is the set of functions g such that there exist n and c such that g(x) <= cf(x) for all x >= n?
20:42:10 <Sgeo> oklopol, you'll have to repeat that to me later.
20:42:19 <Sgeo> I'm not entirely certain of the exact definition.
20:42:25 <Sgeo> Although I guess you just said it.
20:42:31 <Sgeo> I'll need to stare at it more
20:42:35 <oklopol> (i should hope so, at least)
20:42:43 <cheater-> oklopol: the problem is that traditionally using equality on the object O(f) is to be interpreted as an \in sign.
20:42:52 <oklopol> cheater-: erm, that's just notation
20:43:08 <Sgeo> He is arguing about notation. I think.
20:43:33 <cheater-> oklopol: sure, so following your train of thought 8=2 is valid mathematics
20:43:38 <oklopol> notation that often makes stuff easier to state in number theory and that's completely useless in cs
20:44:01 <elliott> hurp derp pedantry is mathematics
20:44:07 <oklopol> cheater-: the difference is everyone knows what the O notation means
20:44:10 <elliott> that's why all math notation is unambiguous
20:44:23 <Gregor> 8=2 is true in the group of R modulo 6 :P
20:44:29 * Sgeo hits someone with pi(20)
20:44:29 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, it is even so that Vim nowadays has a "LISP indentation" mode built-in (well, when compiled with +lispindent). It used to be scripted and amazingly slow; several seconds of waiting when you pressed enter inside a dozen-line expression.
20:44:44 <cheater-> Gregor: in which case it'd be 8 == 2 :p
20:45:20 <elliott> 8==2? sorry what's this ==
20:45:38 <elliott> i have never seen it before.
20:45:41 <elliott> that's not real mathematics.
20:46:00 <elliott> ==, though, def. not mathematics
20:46:01 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: You're right, it's a set. I suck at pedantry :(
20:47:36 <cheater-> i'm afraid your fancy character set isn't compatible with the rest of the internet
20:48:02 <elliott> Yeah, UTF-8, who uses that.
20:48:06 <elliott> Certainly not anyone on IRC.
20:48:12 <elliott> fizzie: you ever used UTF-8?
20:48:39 <fizzie> elliott: Isn't that the thing they put in strawberries to keep the shine?
20:49:13 <elliott> It's when your still-alive dinner has an orgy with eight others.
20:49:48 -!- cheater00 has joined.
20:50:52 <Sgeo> "C++ is crime against humanity, and its creator is the programming equivalent of Saddam Hussein."
20:51:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I like the fact that this gold tracking site also tracks everything in the platinum group.
20:52:02 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:54:33 <Sgeo> yes, although this URI has t-a-w in it
20:54:36 <Sgeo> http://t-a-w.blogspot.com/2007/02/right-to-criticize-programming.html
20:54:50 <elliott> Yes, I suppose taw.blogspot.com was taken.
20:56:07 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*).
21:02:30 <elliott> pikhq: ams is more insane than previously believed.
21:03:10 <elliott> pikhq: I present a three-line snippet from #forth today, provided with all the context it had originally, i.e. none whatsoever:
21:03:13 <elliott> <elliott> Veggie oil; it's generated by burning vegetarians.
21:03:40 <pikhq> That's not ams's insanity, just his sense of humor.
21:03:42 <oerjan> I SEE NOTHING INSANE ABOUT THAT
21:03:49 <pikhq> At least, I *strongly* hope so.
21:04:07 <pikhq> elliott: Not especially.
21:04:10 <elliott> oerjan: Oh come on, the 40 year old paedophile thing is so cliché.
21:04:26 <pikhq> Few people have come ahead betting against humans being insane.
21:04:42 <elliott> 01:37:32 <SunTzu> elliott you is goil?
21:04:42 <elliott> 01:37:47 <elliott> Not that I'm aware of.
21:04:42 <elliott> 01:37:52 <SunTzu> just chking
21:04:42 <elliott> 01:38:16 <SunTzu> keep it in your pant, ams
21:04:45 <elliott> 02:53:35 <ams> SunTzu: you are assuming i'm a guy
21:04:47 <elliott> 04:05:25 <SunTzu> what is your gender?
21:04:49 <elliott> 04:18:30 <ams> SunTzu: does it matter?
21:04:51 <elliott> 04:18:40 <ams> and what if i do not have a gender?
21:04:53 <elliott> pikhq: FURTHER ADVENTURES INTO CRAZY
21:05:10 <elliott> your kind of ugly; lets have s'ex anyway
21:05:14 <elliott> GRAMMAR WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN
21:05:20 <pikhq> elliott: It's easier to just call him an asshat.
21:05:26 <pikhq> It's demonstrable.
21:05:51 <elliott> pikhq: Before that he was arguing for the "GNU/Linux" term with abject sincerity, and then *honestly strongly implied that the Hurd was not vapourware*.
21:05:58 <elliott> Even from the GNU System maintainer, I mean... seriously.
21:06:18 <pikhq> Well, they do have *something* to show for their decades of effort.
21:06:19 <elliott> 00:13:38 <SunTzu> yea, that was spam and the one prev was dehtml scrubbed clean, so i dont know what it said. no significant content
21:06:19 <elliott> 00:13:54 <ams> "When will TUNES be done?"
21:06:20 <elliott> 00:13:59 <ams> prolly something like that ;-)
21:06:20 <elliott> 00:14:02 <SunTzu> like Hurd, never
21:06:20 <elliott> 00:14:17 <ams> SunTzu: the Hurd has had three releases.
21:06:21 <elliott> THREE VERY SERIOUS RELEASES
21:06:26 <pikhq> So I guess technically it isn't vapourware.
21:06:27 <elliott> Supports everything except USB, and everything else.
21:06:35 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:06:41 <pikhq> Just an insanely slow development process.
21:06:50 <pikhq> elliott: Well, yeah. It has a Linux 2.2 driver stack.
21:07:37 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/g165z/what_is_the_name_of_that_saxophone_song_thats/ best reddit thread ever
21:08:09 <Phantom_Hoover> http://blog.fogus.me/2011/03/09/recursion-is-a-low-level-operation/
21:08:42 <Phantom_Hoover> (Actually, his point is perfectly sane, but he uses Clojure so I hate him.)
21:08:56 <pikhq> I wouldn't necessarily call it "low-level", but it certainly should be avoided in functional languages when possible.
21:09:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oh come on, fogus is a good guy.
21:09:12 <elliott> And plenty of sane people use Cojure, it's just an honest mistake and whatnot.
21:09:31 <elliott> Even the Arcane Sentiment guy has good things to say about it; it's everyone involved with it who _isn't_ the language creator who's the problem.
21:09:43 <elliott> Seriously though, your hate gland is even more hyperactive than mine.
21:09:50 <pikhq> Build your functions out of other clearly understandable functions that happen to be implemented recursively. This makes shit not mind-bending.
21:10:04 <elliott> pikhq: Tail recursion is iteration, which is low-level.
21:10:11 <elliott> Non-tail recursion is higher-level.
21:10:16 <elliott> But it's still not natural.
21:10:28 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, tail recursion is definitely a low-level.
21:10:36 <Gregor> Tail recursion: All the flavor of recursion, but with no more fat than iteration!
21:10:54 <pikhq> Gregor: I can't believe it's not imperative! :P
21:11:06 <elliott> ANYWAY. Tomorrow I am buying RTK1 and maybe 3. Today, it turns out, that there is a level of sleep deprivation, at which it is impossible to use amazon.co.uk.
21:12:34 -!- treederwright has joined.
21:13:08 -!- ab5tract has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:13:22 <elliott> treederwright: http://esolangs.org/ has more on our mystical order.
21:13:25 <quintopia> what? am i being asked if i'm a girl? i don't understand!
21:13:26 <Gregor> No, it's a channel, which is to say a particular partition of the communication through a network which are all tagged with a relevant channel identifier. It has no physical substance, and is as such not a room.
21:13:31 <elliott> Isn't that right, brother oerjan.
21:13:40 <elliott> O! The Godly One Gregor speaketh towards us.
21:13:43 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, you should totally be stocking up on osmium rather than gold.
21:13:55 <pikhq> Gregor speaketh of the mystical Multiplexing. Hallowed be the concept.
21:13:58 * oerjan ponders the mystical wisdom of letting elliott being our welcoming committee
21:13:58 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: i've already cornered the market in osmium
21:14:07 <elliott> AUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
21:14:10 <elliott> AUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
21:14:18 <elliott> oerjan: how's that goat doing, any blood left in it yet
21:14:24 <elliott> treederwright: BAHAHAHA! Of course!
21:14:32 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: none. how much more is it worth than platinum?
21:14:36 <pikhq> treederwright: Doubtful; this is esoteric in the sense of esoteric programming languages, not in the sense of esotericism.
21:14:46 <elliott> pikhq: You speaketh foul of our intents.
21:14:49 * Gregor looks at the @ next to his name and twiddles his thumbs.
21:14:51 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, its cost per gram is about half that of gold.
21:15:00 <elliott> pikhq: Has't teou a malice in'st thou intention?
21:15:23 <pikhq> elliott: I haþ neiþer malice nor ſlander in mine intents.
21:15:26 <Phantom_Hoover> *But* it looks awesome, is the second-hardest and the densest metal, and can be used for chemical warfare in a pinch.
21:15:29 -!- cal153 has quit.
21:15:41 <elliott> pikhq: Habetis igitur verbum herba.
21:15:46 <Gregor> Why yes, yes you are :P
21:15:53 <elliott> This is for Rosicrucian only.
21:16:02 <pikhq> elliott: Do you even know what that *is*?
21:16:03 <elliott> Please - ignore the misleaders.
21:16:05 <oerjan> treederwright: sadly we've never found a better irc channel to point people like you to
21:16:10 <elliott> They are intended only to filter out the True Believers.
21:16:21 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: :P
21:16:34 <elliott> pentagrams have four sides
21:16:34 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Twiddle.
21:16:40 <Twiddle> How is this nick not taken!
21:16:47 <elliott> `addquote <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
21:16:53 <oklopol> is pentagram the circle of 5?
21:17:01 <elliott> that sounds like a charlie sheen quote
21:17:08 <Phantom_Hoover> treederwright, what're the dimensions of the matrix of solidity?
21:17:08 <elliott> ENTER MY OCTAGON AND FACE MY MATRIX OF SOLIDITY
21:17:10 <Twiddle> elliott: Hallo thar is no HackEgo and I can't bring it back up right now :P
21:17:36 <Twiddle> Twiddle: My home router went kashits and I can't ssh in.
21:17:51 <oklopol> treederwright: the determinant of my matrix is 0 :<
21:17:57 <oklopol> the WORST kind of solidity
21:18:01 <pikhq> Is the matrix of solidity square? Is it invertible?
21:18:08 <pikhq> Apparently oklopol's matrix is not invertible.
21:18:08 <Twiddle> I WILL BE YOUR EIGENVECTOR
21:18:10 -!- treederwright has left (?).
21:18:16 <elliott> oklopol: I hear there's new treatments nowadays for that kind of stuff.
21:18:22 <elliott> noooooo, the one person who could save us
21:18:31 <Phantom_Hoover> WE WILL NEVER FIND THE INVERSE OF OUR MATRIX OF SOLIDITY
21:18:45 <pikhq> elliott: Perhaps all our matrices are submatrices of the matrix of solidity.
21:19:01 -!- elliott has set topic: The Residence of the Entrapments of the Matrix of Solidity | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
21:19:02 <quintopia> oklopol: are you living in a post-singularity world?
21:19:16 -!- elliott has set topic: The Residency of the Entrapments of the Matrix of Solidity | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
21:19:41 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: platinum is a metal. it doesn't have an ass.
21:20:02 <pikhq> quintopia: Certain samples of platinum possess an ass.
21:20:09 <pikhq> And iridium can kick the ass of such samples.
21:20:36 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, um, but, yeah, surely if you're stocking up on precious metals for your crazy survivalist plans you should at least use one with *some* practical application once civilisation collapses.
21:21:08 <Phantom_Hoover> There won't exactly be much demand for catalytic converters.
21:21:13 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Iron!
21:21:28 <pikhq> And get skill at smithing.
21:22:04 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, well yeah, but iridium is basically like diamond in Minecraft.
21:22:18 <Phantom_Hoover> It's really hard and it's very resistant to corrosion.
21:22:39 <elliott> I dream of a day where every physical object is explained in terms of Minecraft.
21:22:46 <elliott> Including activities such as "mining".
21:22:58 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: the precious metals are only to be used as portable trade items. the most important feature such a metal can have is rarity.
21:23:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You're arguing with a guy who prioritises trade of meaningless goods over survival in a post-apocalyptic scenario.
21:23:22 <pikhq> Yeah, iridium makes gold look like candy.
21:23:25 <elliott> There is no reasoning to take place.
21:23:55 <pikhq> They mine three tons every year. Total.
21:24:02 <elliott> quintopia: wasn't that the thing you were saying.
21:24:07 <elliott> it might not have been you.
21:24:50 <quintopia> elliott: ah, no. in a post-apocalyptic scenario a portable trade good is not exactly top priority. highest priority is food shelter clean water guns and ammunition :P
21:25:00 <elliott> i'd like a ring made out of iridium or something.
21:25:04 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, yes, and iridium is actually *useful* there.
21:25:14 -!- rodgort has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:25:16 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I want one made of osmium because it has an awesome colour.
21:25:26 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: where can i buy iridium coins *now*?
21:25:33 <elliott> quintopia: Why guns, perfect time to start an anarcho-syndicalist commune :P
21:25:44 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:25:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Except then I found out that its oxide is really toxic and forms from air. But then I found somewhere else saying that it was perfectly safe as a solid.
21:25:50 <quintopia> elliott: to defend the anarcho-socialist commune from people with guns
21:26:04 <elliott> quintopia: but what if EVERYONE starts their own commune of one
21:26:27 <quintopia> elliott: then i'd be in my own commune of one
21:26:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Osmium_cluster.jpg
21:26:35 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, http://www.advent-rm.com/materials/Iridium.htm
21:26:39 <quintopia> (i think you could have worked this out on your own)
21:26:40 -!- variable has joined.
21:26:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Alternately go for osmium because it's also pretty hard and unreactive enough.
21:27:04 <elliott> so what's the rarest thing that's rare
21:27:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the rarest elements are all ultra-radioactive and hence worthless.
21:27:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Nah, you can only get a few atoms in a lump of uranium ore.
21:28:16 <elliott> what's the rarest thing that isn't super-radioactive :-P
21:28:39 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, more specifically, http://www.advent-rm.com/catalogue/lines.aspx?criteria=material&materialid=20
21:29:06 <pikhq> There's 3 elements rarer than iridium on Earth.
21:29:15 <pikhq> Rhenium, ruthenium, rhodium.
21:29:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ...click a product line number
21:29:27 <elliott> http://www.advent-rm.com/catalogue/items.aspx?criteria=line&linenumber=IR5248
21:29:35 <elliott> oh 0.5 isn't much there's more
21:29:44 <pikhq> (exempting highly unstable elements)
21:29:58 <pikhq> quintopia: Dude, *gold* isn't even that tradable.
21:30:08 <pikhq> Y'know what's tradable? Canned goods.
21:30:14 <elliott> http://www.advent-rm.com/catalogue/items.aspx?criteria=line&linenumber=IR1619
21:30:16 <elliott> last one is most expensive
21:30:24 <quintopia> you know what goes bad in a year? canned goods.
21:30:47 <pikhq> If everything collapses, people aren't going to *give a shit* about shiny.
21:30:51 <quintopia> (not always a year. but they lose nutritional value after at least a few)
21:31:23 <quintopia> pikhq: ah, it's not that it's shiny. it's that it is portable and has a long-established value association.
21:31:34 <quintopia> sure, tools and useful goods are best for trade
21:31:34 -!- rodgort has joined.
21:31:41 <quintopia> but what if you don't have anything that person needs
21:31:59 <pikhq> It also possesses no innate use when you're fighting for your life.
21:32:32 <quintopia> i think you're looking too far ahead
21:33:08 <pikhq> I think you're being far too optimistic in your assessment of a worst-case scenario.
21:33:11 <quintopia> it's most valuable during the apocalypse. the transition period immediately after fiat money becomes valueless but stores still have wares to sell
21:33:22 <elliott> you think stores will still be operated post-apocalypse?
21:33:23 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I'm looking as far as "I want some of this, screw the apocalypse."
21:33:47 <quintopia> the ones that have guns and valuable stuff for survival will
21:33:59 <quintopia> but later stores will happen again
21:34:03 <pikhq> Hah. Hah. No. They'll be fucked.
21:34:12 <elliott> where's the book of shitty unrealistic libertarian fantasies you took this from :)
21:34:20 <elliott> stores will happen again...sure
21:34:32 <pikhq> If fiat money goes away, expect looting.
21:34:33 <elliott> but day 3 after the apocalypse, nobody's gonna be running that store.
21:34:43 <elliott> come on. revolutions cause major looting.
21:34:57 <pikhq> elliott: Heck, just a sufficiently bad natural disaster does it.
21:35:03 <quintopia> explain to me exactly how someone with a warehouse full of guns and enough people to defend it couldn't profit immensely by continuing to operate after economic collapse?
21:35:13 <pikhq> quintopia: "Enough people to defend it".
21:35:22 <elliott> if everyone had guns everyone would live in liberty and peace and equality
21:35:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Vs. a market price of $400 per troy ounce which comes to...
21:35:31 <pikhq> You're assuming the store owner has a small army.
21:35:33 <elliott> the core of every libertarian nutjob fantasy
21:35:47 <quintopia> pikhq: yes. and when you have a warehouse filled with guns and most people have knives, that's probably not very many.
21:35:52 <pikhq> And will continue to do so when the average person has *no currency*.
21:36:02 <elliott> WAREHOUSES FILLED WITH GUNS
21:36:20 <oklopol> does this apocalypse involve the destruction of mathematics?
21:36:20 -!- azaq23 has joined.
21:36:21 <pikhq> quintopia: Oh, please, people will loot Walmart first.
21:36:28 <elliott> all graphs will be destroyed.
21:36:41 <elliott> oklopol: you get to make them up all over again
21:36:54 <quintopia> pikhq: sure. that'll get five people 20 rifles a piece. there will still be demand.
21:36:57 <oklopol> brought a little tear in my eye
21:37:08 <pikhq> quintopia: And no currency.
21:37:10 <elliott> oklopol: cause the apocalypse and it will all be yours
21:37:11 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, no, I mean which market does it cost that on?
21:37:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: THE EXPENSIVE SHIT MARKET
21:37:46 <oklopol> shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich
21:37:46 <elliott> The Frugal Buyers of Expensive Shit Market.
21:37:48 <pikhq> quintopia: And the owner of all these guns isn't going to care about your shiny rocks.
21:37:52 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:37:53 <elliott> pikhq: Guns guns guns guns guns guns guns.
21:37:59 <pikhq> quintopia: Food, sure. But shiny rocks?
21:38:04 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich
21:38:04 <pikhq> What's that good for, slingshot ammo?
21:38:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:38:41 <quintopia> pikhq: maybe. maybe not. at the very least, it will be worth recognizably more than slips of cotton.
21:38:44 -!- Leonidas has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:38:45 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:38:51 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:39:01 <pikhq> quintopia: Okay, true, it will possess more worth than fiat currency.
21:39:01 <Twiddle> Remember that the apocalypse is May 21, so you've got to work fast here too.
21:39:09 <elliott> "I was not Lucidending... OR WAS I? (No, seriously, I wasn't.) http://gaw.kr/fchwHH" --Adrian Shit
21:39:12 <pikhq> Though I doubt worth *much* more.
21:39:17 <oklopol> oerjan: how about a graph that's complete in EVERY topology?
21:39:17 <elliott> "Why the Internet Thinks I Faked Having Cancer on a Message Board"
21:39:23 <elliott> This article is going to be so, so classy.
21:39:28 <elliott> So classy I can't help but read it.
21:39:31 <pikhq> Still, the fiat currency would, in this hypothetical, be devoid of any use except burning and novelty.
21:39:56 <oklopol> oerjan: i'll leave you with this thought, have to go now tho
21:39:56 <elliott> "But for the rest, here is the story of how a dumb late-night joke tweet led one of the Internet's largest message boards to believe I am a horrible person." You are, but ha ha, I was rigt, Phantom_Hoover was wrong, I'm so tired, fuidjklvck
21:39:57 <pikhq> Or, in the case of metal coins, smelting.
21:40:07 <elliott> SMELT EVERYTHING IN A FURNACE WITH COAL
21:40:31 <quintopia> pikhq: name something else that is small, useful post-apocalypse, highly valuable, and does not lose value over time.
21:40:41 -!- jix has joined.
21:40:47 <elliott> "Also, what terminally ill person would spend even one of his last hours answering questions on a message board? (And why Reddit, when 4chan would have come up way more interesting questions?)"
21:40:51 <elliott> Yes. 4chan ask interesting questions.
21:41:00 <elliott> This is a factual thing that is known to be a true factual fact which is true.
21:41:24 <oklopol> shit has no value and thus doesn't lose any, is useful for getting rid off and can be small. it's not highly valuable though.
21:41:37 <elliott> "There are plenty of reasons for this differential, but chief among them is Reddit's female problem. The board, with its ridiculous "Men's Rights" forum, often displays what one twitter user calls "loony anti-woman rage." Lucidending was a dude."
21:41:38 <oklopol> but you can't have all the answers
21:41:46 <elliott> BECAUSE ANYBODY CAN CREATE A SUBREDDIT, REDDIT IS THE SEXIST
21:41:48 <pikhq> quintopia: Name to me anything that is small, *useful post-apocalypse*, highly valuable, and does not lose value over time.
21:42:08 <quintopia> pikhq: yes. i added that because you insisted that any valuable trade good be useful
21:42:17 <quintopia> therefore you must say what such thing exists
21:42:51 <oklopol> you can throw shit at your enemy?
21:42:56 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, you know about how crazy people are; what on earth is that $400/ozt figure coming from?
21:43:08 <pikhq> quintopia: Sorry, but most commodities tend to lose value over time. But *oh well*, because commodities can be obtained later when shit stables out.
21:43:48 <pikhq> quintopia: And the simple fact is, if all hell breaks loose, mere hypothetical value is the furthest thing from people's minds.
21:44:01 <pikhq> Direct, immediate use is all that's relevant.
21:44:05 <oklopol> yeah people will start checking all the graphs are intact
21:44:07 <quintopia> then you can't name anything better for a long-lasting stockpile than gold? (long-lasting meaning i won't immediately start consuming it)
21:44:18 <oklopol> they won't have time for silly things like that
21:44:33 <pikhq> Heck, you'd probably have better luck storing some water.
21:44:33 <quintopia> pikhq: all hell doesn't last very long. people start asserting control a lot quicker than you would expect
21:44:43 <pikhq> *Especially* if you're in, say, Arizona.
21:45:11 <oklopol> yeah once you've checked a few small graphs, you can get the rest by induction
21:45:14 <quintopia> pikhq: i would start consuming water immediately. because, you know, it goes bad and stuff.
21:45:17 <oklopol> and then you can try to put out the fires
21:45:20 -!- Leonidas has joined.
21:45:25 <oklopol> and then onto groups prolly
21:46:03 <oklopol> those free ones are so damn fickle
21:46:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Hang on, that thing has iridium pegged at a lower price than rhodium.
21:46:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, rhodium production is over 8 times that of iridium.
21:47:05 <oklopol> are rodeos built out of rhodium
21:47:30 <oklopol> maybe i can learn more tomorrow ->
21:48:09 <pikhq> Funny, I'm consuming water that's been around for billions of years.
21:48:30 <oerjan> oklopol: what do complete graphs have to do with topologies
21:50:12 <elliott> tiuhduiwhuiuihhudhuidhnffhdhrhfhghfhjdndjkj
21:50:17 <elliott> inveny lNGUAG wher is word
21:50:24 <quintopia> pikhq: you're drinking water that's recently been purified.
21:50:52 <oklopol> <- never too late for topology!
21:50:57 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:51:01 <quintopia> water filters might be a good commodity to have. afaik, they don't go bad until you start using them.
21:51:15 <Leonidas> Phantom_Hoover: NEVER PLAYED IT, JUST GOD OF WAAAAAAARRRRR!
21:51:29 <oerjan> oklopol: the usual meaning of complete graph does not involve any afaik
21:52:01 <oklopol> oerjan: who know's though?
21:52:02 <Leonidas> osmium? i thought there was some indie-game by that name.
21:52:21 <elliott> INDIE GAMES? O U MEAN LIEK MINDKRAFT
21:52:42 * oerjan swats some sense into oklopol -----###
21:52:55 <Leonidas> MINDKRAFT Y U HAVE NO FANCY GRAPHICS?
21:53:11 <oklopol> i think i have to go now, no matter HOW topology.
21:53:12 <elliott> Leonidas: TOTES PREEMPTIVELY BANNED FROM #ESOTERIC-MINECRAFT
21:54:44 <Leonidas> can I like, adopt 10 kittens and dress them in hipster clothes and make nice youtube videos to wash away my sins?
21:55:20 <oerjan> Leonidas: you can do everything up to the word "make"
21:55:28 <oerjan> then it starts getting tricky
21:56:12 <elliott> Leonidas: you'd need to craft a youtube video first
21:56:15 <oerjan> because the latter part is obviously incompatible with the former
21:56:46 <Leonidas> to craft a youtube video, I'll first have to craft the universe
21:56:57 <elliott> Minecraft needs apple pie.
21:57:05 <elliott> You have to craft a universe, enter it, and then make apple pie.
21:57:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's an abstract algebraic object. it has no volume, duh, you can't say how loud it is!
21:57:31 * elliott enters the Mandatory Swatting Booth
21:57:45 * oerjan performs the Mandatory Swatting -----###
21:59:49 <elliott> oerjan: HE'S THE PERFECT SIZE
21:59:57 <elliott> so oerjan, what timezone are you in now, when are you going to sleep :D
22:00:23 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:00:29 -!- jix has joined.
22:00:48 -!- elliott has changed nick to optbot.
22:01:04 -!- optbot has changed nick to elliott.
22:01:21 <elliott> oerjan: it's important for meterological purposes
22:01:29 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torus#Geometry
22:01:35 <elliott> oerjan: ANSWER MY QUESTIONS FIRST
22:02:51 <elliott> oerjan: no i mean your 25-hour day timezone
22:03:01 <elliott> when are you going to sleep/when did you get up, so i can calculate the true UTC offset >:D
22:04:06 <oerjan> elliott: in about [REDACTED] hours
22:04:31 <elliott> oerjan: WHAT IS SO SECRET ABOUT THAT. I _will_ use IRC logs if necessary
22:04:51 <oerjan> incidentally øst is norwegian for east
22:05:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Cool, that actually means you could get enough for a ring for a reasonable price.
22:05:40 <elliott> oerjan: do you just want to make it a "challenge"
22:06:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Seriously? Sweet.
22:06:56 <elliott> which is that, iridum or osmium
22:07:13 <elliott> Man, I'm not even hallucinating.
22:07:17 <elliott> Sleep-deprivation like this, I want to hallucinate.
22:07:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: >_> HOW ABOUT THAT IRIDIUM EY
22:07:35 <Phantom_Hoover> And that's in pellet form; actually making it ring-shaped would be much harder.
22:07:48 <elliott> it's only been 30-31 hours
22:07:57 <elliott> i just wanna see pink giraffes and stuff :(
22:08:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Melting it is not a easy task, given that it actually melts at a lower temperature than iron boils.
22:09:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: tips for inducing hallucinations after 30-31 hours of no sleep plz
22:09:07 <Phantom_Hoover> And it reacts with oxygen quite readily, complicating things even more.
22:09:23 <elliott> that might work. don't think there's any lying around though.
22:09:49 <Phantom_Hoover> My parents have a friend who knows about metalworking; perhaps I should ask her.
22:10:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that's the boring way
22:10:29 <elliott> learn all there is to know about metalworking for yourself instea
22:11:13 <pikhq> 7x10x4 for my new and improvéd minecart station.
22:11:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Osmium is probably not amenable to standard techniques.
22:11:44 <Phantom_Hoover> It's really hard, has a really high melting point and reacts readily.
22:12:22 <elliott> hmm, how heavy would a ring of osmimsimsimsimum be?
22:12:26 <Phantom_Hoover> (This is assuming my finger radius though, which is almost certainly greater than yours.)
22:12:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, 1.15g for a torus 2cm in diameter and 1mm in tube diameter.
22:13:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, find out how wide your finger is and work it out.
22:13:50 -!- EgoBot has joined.
22:13:56 <elliott> rolling my eeeeyes arouuuuund
22:14:03 <elliott> somehow i think that more than lack of seelp is required to hallucainte
22:14:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: way too tired.
22:14:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: wide i guess
22:15:23 <Twiddle> Why didn't HackEgo reconnect?
22:15:44 <elliott> Twiddle: because it doesn't love you any more
22:16:10 <Twiddle> elliott: That's OK, I only used it for sex.
22:17:25 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:17:35 -!- EgoBot has joined.
22:18:10 -!- HackEgo has joined.
22:19:03 <elliott> `addquote <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
22:19:11 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich
22:22:02 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 34K Mar 10 23:04 quotes
22:22:28 <elliott> `addquote <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
22:22:29 <HackEgo> 330) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
22:22:32 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich
22:22:34 <HackEgo> 331) <oklopol> shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich
22:22:41 <elliott> Twiddle: really i want to quote the entire treederwright exchange, but :)
22:22:49 <elliott> matrix of solidity is good enough.
22:23:57 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, hmm, looks like osmium tetroxide production is sufficient even in the solid that a ring would be inadvisable.
22:24:10 <HackEgo> <oklopol> shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich
22:24:20 <elliott> oerjan: how does that even
22:24:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: TRY IT FOR SCIENCE
22:24:42 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's///g' quotes
22:24:48 <HackEgo> <oklopol> shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich
22:25:10 <elliott> oerjan: what you tryin'a accomplish :D
22:25:27 <elliott> impressive that it replaced ALL the empty strings in the quotes file with empty strings in finite time
22:25:29 <oerjan> elliott: removing the color codes?
22:25:39 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, iridium would be doable, but probably more expensibe.
22:25:57 <oerjan> elliott: i am seeing lots of inverted H's
22:26:18 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich
22:26:21 <HackEgo> 331) <oklopol> shit would make great currency, because everyone would have it and you could literally be filthy rich
22:27:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm still disappointed that osmium is too reactive to use.
22:28:00 <oerjan> obviously it's great for osmosis
22:28:43 <elliott> so oerjan, how many hours of your day do you NOT spend on IRC, I ASK PURELY OUT OF _CURIOSITY_
22:29:01 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, iridium is off-white, though, rather than blue-grey.
22:29:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Iridium2.jpg
22:29:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Try off-sexy.
22:29:35 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Iridium-2.jpg ;; less so, but still pretty neat.
22:30:24 <elliott> THEN OERJAN WON'T BE ABLE TO TURN DOWN MY PROPOSAL
22:32:33 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Iridium2.jpg ;; this in ring form i would totally love, but i fear that under different lighting it would look less impressive.
22:32:36 <elliott> still, it'll always be shiny
22:32:44 <Phantom_Hoover> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Ruthenium_a_half_bar.jpg
22:32:46 <elliott> guess what my ring's made out of
22:33:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: RUTHENIUM/IRIDIUM HYBRID
22:33:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Not as expensive so you lose the bragging rights, though.
22:33:41 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ununoctium i want a ring made out of this
22:33:53 <elliott> ooh ooh wait, can i have a hydrogen ring
22:34:20 <Phantom_Hoover> RINGS MADE OUT OF PLATINUM GROUP METALS ARE THE ONLY ONES
22:34:58 <elliott> Bismuth is the only metal.
22:35:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Bismuth crystals are cool but that wouldn't carry over to a ring, I suspect.
22:35:59 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: now now, a sodium ring would also be hot stuff
22:36:01 <elliott> Safe to say that I with others have retrieved a copy of the International Journal of Bismuth from a public library.
22:36:20 <elliott> (After being misheard for the far-more-reasonable-subject-for-a-journal "business".)
22:37:09 <Phantom_Hoover> 1g of ruthenium is a bit more expensive, but it's also a larger volume than osmium.
22:37:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, as entertaining as silly rings are, I really ought to sleep.
22:40:06 -!- optbot has joined.
22:40:06 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | test.
22:40:17 -!- optbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:40:26 -!- optbot has joined.
22:40:26 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | hello: test.
22:40:32 -!- optbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:40:37 <elliott> return re.sub(r'^[a-zA-Z[\]\\`_^{|}][a-zA-Z0-9[\]\\`_^{|}]+:\s+', '', line)
22:40:40 <elliott> CLEARLY MY REGEXP IS INSUFFICIENT
22:40:45 <elliott> oerjan: dance that optbot is coming back
22:41:12 <oerjan> that looks like the kind of regexp that gives you two problems
22:41:24 <elliott> it's just the valid chars in an irc name :)
22:41:31 <pikhq> A sub-Turing tarpit.
22:41:49 * pikhq wonders if there's any better syntax for expressing regular expressions...
22:42:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:42:20 <oerjan> pikhq: heck, there might even be a _worse_ one
22:42:52 <elliott> * pikhq wonders if there's any better syntax for expressing regular expressions...
22:43:21 <elliott> oerjan: i need your operopinion
22:43:28 <elliott> the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric | random line
22:43:32 <elliott> oerjan: that was old optbot's format
22:43:49 <elliott> how do you suggest I modify it, keeping in line with the fact that we now have two log links, and use /?C=M;O=D, and the fact that my logs aren't really the ENTIRE backlog,
22:43:54 <elliott> and the fact that that prefix will be really long?
22:44:14 <elliott> maybe putting the logs second? but it feels weird to have optbot's zaniness at the start :)
22:45:32 <elliott> oerjan: this is a serious matter. respond.
22:45:34 <oerjan> they were never entire anyway
22:45:45 <elliott> oerjan: well, no, but close enough.
22:46:03 <elliott> the entire backlog of #esoteric: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/
22:46:44 <elliott> oerjan: how about you put my log link in the chanserv welcome message so i can avoid that ;D
22:47:30 <oerjan> i don't think the chanserv welcome message is very noticable.
22:47:43 <elliott> good point. put tunes there instead ;D
22:48:35 <oerjan> what's wrong with "Logs: " given it has to be short
22:49:04 <elliott> oerjan: I tried "logs: " but it's still quite long
22:49:10 <elliott> conn.write('TOPIC #esoteric :logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | %s\r\n' % (random_line(),))
22:49:33 <elliott> oerjan: hm wait what if I used a url shortener... ais wouldn't click the links, but everyone else would
22:49:45 <oerjan> well i'm not used to the whole topic showing in irssi top line anyway
22:50:00 * elliott makes a goo.gl one, because that's a name you can trust!
22:50:48 <elliott> template = 'logs: http://goo.gl/54yE4 and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | %s'
22:50:57 <elliott> oerjan: do you find this acceptable? btw, i wouldn't care about the length,
22:51:00 <elliott> it's just that topics can get cut off
22:52:25 <elliott> i guess 301 chars is enough :)
22:52:35 <elliott> oerjan: just seems like it hides the optbot wisdom, yaknow
22:52:39 <elliott> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
22:55:44 * elliott updates logs from hg, runs gen.py, uploads 90 meg file to server
22:58:25 <elliott> It is said that he who holds the file of the lines holds the true secret to the Earth.
23:00:02 <elliott> lines 18% 15MB 51.8KB/s 22:10 ETA
23:00:04 <elliott> it should not be so slow...
23:00:12 <elliott> oerjan: i'm transferring ALL THE KNOWLEDGE.
23:03:32 <elliott> oerjan: it's going to be so relaxing not having to come up with witty topics all the time
23:03:41 <elliott> oerjan: we'll have that lovely predictable 6-hour clockwork schedule of topic changes
23:03:48 <elliott> with optbot! if we ever don't like the current one
23:03:55 <elliott> those were the blissful days.
23:06:45 <elliott> lines 46% 39MB 44.7KB/s 16:41 ETA
23:06:54 <elliott> oerjan: can you feel all the knowledge streaming across the tubes.
23:07:29 <oerjan> CAN YOU FEEL THE LOVE TONIGHT
23:07:59 <elliott> oerjan: now imagine THIS: when you were thirteen years old, transferring merely the sum total of our blabber that I am currently quickly zipping off to a remote server would be an expensive, unrealistic, and painfully slow endeavour, with a sneakernet solution being hundreds of times faster
23:13:43 <elliott> i did, got nothing useful, but grokked it manually
23:14:37 <oerjan> hm it was a way down on the google page
23:14:57 <oerjan> especially as google insisted on suggesting "YNGEL"
23:15:27 <oerjan> which incidentally is precisely the kind of word a grumpy old norwegian might use to describe kids trespassing
23:16:28 -!- Twiddle has changed nick to Gregor.
23:16:31 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:16:42 <zzo38> I wrote a chess program in TeX.
23:18:59 <zzo38> Now we can write a book about chess, by using TeX.
23:19:01 <oerjan> especially since he already mentioned starting it
23:19:21 <elliott> hm in future i should use rsync to update this lines file.
23:19:42 <zzo38> I still didn't finished, but I finished the part to parse move notations. Now it will parse all algebraic move notations correctly.
23:20:12 <zzo38> And also Forsyth-Edwards Notation.
23:20:20 <zzo38> (Do you know Forsyth-Edwards Notation?)
23:21:21 <elliott> try x264 with quantisation set to 0
23:21:37 <zzo38> elliott: What is that?
23:22:47 -!- optbot has joined.
23:22:48 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | yes, that must be done.
23:22:56 <optbot> elliott: ais523, what'd he do?
23:23:07 <optbot> elliott: Are you sure you aren't just living in a nice area?
23:23:12 <elliott> optbot: I'm sure. ais would be nice anywhere.
23:23:13 <optbot> elliott: Try timecube :P
23:23:19 <elliott> optbot: That sounds ungood for my sanity.
23:23:19 <optbot> elliott: like the first one
23:23:22 <optbot> elliott: I _think_ that Daeva has an attack that actually scratches test spawner, and ANtaeus doesn't
23:23:29 <optbot> elliott: wth is up with http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/what_foolishness_is_this.png
23:23:40 <oerjan> elliott: not to mention ais523's sanity. optbot is really testing you here.
23:23:40 <optbot> oerjan: That would be a really useless program.
23:23:44 <elliott> thought oerjan pinged me there, i was very confused.
23:23:51 -!- rusopro has joined.
23:24:13 <elliott> <optbot> elliott: wth is up with http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/what_foolishness_is_this.png
23:24:13 <optbot> elliott: that way it's as shitty as IE
23:24:19 <elliott> optbot: what's as shitty as IE?
23:24:23 -!- rusopro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:24:25 <elliott> optbot: don't be so opaque!
23:24:28 <optbot> elliott: anyway, this time it seeds exactly twice at the start of the program
23:24:40 <elliott> optbot: you just use Python's standard seeding mechanisms
23:24:40 <optbot> elliott: (Proof: Imagine a regexp that executes, say, a single step of brainfuck except instead of [] you have | which pushes the code after it to a stack, ; which stops executing, : which pops off stack and executes, and ? which runs the next instruction iff !=0)
23:24:51 <elliott> optbot: That's... not a proof of that at all.
23:24:51 <optbot> elliott: meh. but that one runs on Parrot. fuck that.
23:25:01 <optbot> elliott: Are you referring to the shape, or the placement?
23:25:05 <optbot> elliott: i have my doubts
23:25:09 <elliott> optbot: I know what I talk about.
23:25:09 <optbot> elliott: are the lengths known?
23:25:15 <elliott> optbot: They're TOO LONG TO KNOW.
23:25:21 <optbot> elliott: i've done more that 20 bf-interpreters
23:25:29 <elliott> optbot: Over 9000 BF interpreters.
23:25:30 <optbot> elliott: i dont actually want anything from think geek, but even so
23:25:35 <optbot> elliott: well then let's use that. :)
23:25:39 <optbot> elliott: Deewiant, ok but fix the core bugs first!
23:25:44 <zzo38> What should be the space factors for chess notations?
23:25:52 <elliott> optbot: oerjan is Deewiant; bug him.
23:25:52 <optbot> elliott: the NNSSSNSNSNSSN line is the cube's code?
23:25:56 <optbot> elliott: but my numpad usage is a bad habit
23:26:02 <optbot> elliott: what was it, btw?
23:26:04 <optbot> elliott: i just remember it
23:26:07 <optbot> elliott: Days, bah. I offer 3 days max wait ;)
23:26:12 <zzo38> And what size should chess icons on the board?
23:27:08 <oerjan> elliott: your obvious attempt to get me banned for spamming is doomed
23:27:32 <elliott> oerjan: um optbot conversations are exempt from all spamming rules
23:27:48 <optbot> elliott: or was it just... totally random byte values?
23:27:48 <optbot> fungot: no need. finding out the answer is a project i will have forgotten in a few days
23:27:57 <fungot> elliott: heh, thanks, also, i think it tries whether h reflects or something
23:28:00 <optbot> elliott: DID YOU KNOW: bbc's online radio player is hell to get working on linux
23:28:08 <elliott> oerjan: only fizzie can use that
23:28:08 <optbot> elliott: i love pickled vaginas
23:28:19 <oerjan> elliott: i hoped it would at least list it...
23:28:20 <elliott> problem is you can't addquote anything optbot says because it just repeats :D
23:28:20 <optbot> elliott: But I can't change it without changing the font size for ALL documents, including IRC, because it's the DEFAULT SIZE.
23:28:33 <optbot> elliott: that makes sense when you're dealing with scalar values... but not values that are the combinations of scalars.
23:28:44 <optbot> elliott: vjn.fi, just follow the games link
23:28:56 <elliott> i have a bad feeling about those two bots waking up.
23:29:01 <elliott> i didn't really bother to rate-limit it.
23:29:27 <zzo38> elliott: You can do so by private message, then.
23:29:49 <zzo38> (To send add quote)
23:30:01 <elliott> zzo38: I mean, everything optbot says is just a repeat
23:30:05 <elliott> so quoting it would be starnge
23:30:35 <elliott> oerjan: i'm torn between trying out optbot! and the fact that I like this topic
23:30:36 <optbot> elliott: I've yet to shave :D
23:30:49 <zzo38> elliott: Then figure out how often it repeat......
23:31:01 <optbot> HackEgo: there's a shortcut for that
23:32:10 <quintopia> Gregor: write me a js implementation in checkout. i need to have full-featured 3D javascript games.
23:32:19 <elliott> quintopia: ask optbot to do that.
23:32:19 <optbot> elliott: it gives you a bit more appreciation for what Windows actually gets right
23:32:25 <elliott> all you kids come after optbot
23:32:26 <optbot> elliott: that's how it is
23:32:33 <elliott> it was the most bitching thing ever and now it's back, hi5 optbot
23:32:33 <optbot> elliott: I thought they would drop the + operator, since it's not in most pi calculus conventions
23:32:43 <optbot> elliott: I have no idea what "Programming languages are usually designed to prevent unintended ELIZA effects by restricting keywords and carefully avoiding potential misinterpretations" means
23:33:01 <oerjan> elliott: i do not think either of the bots reacts without the correct prefix
23:33:17 <elliott> so optbot can't actually loop non-babblers
23:33:18 <optbot> elliott: maybe #5 should be Hesse's "Glass Bead Game"
23:33:21 <elliott> and the only babbler, fungot, blocks it
23:33:21 <fungot> elliott: there go my minutes of research!!
23:33:30 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> elliott: there go my minutes of research!!
23:33:32 <HackEgo> 332) <fungot> elliott: there go my minutes of research!!
23:34:05 <elliott> optbot: So what do you think of fungot?
23:34:05 <optbot> elliott: The english translation is complicated
23:34:14 <optbot> zzo38: it's like INTERCAL, only the bits you actually try to run have to make sense
23:34:14 <fungot> zzo38: tail recursion goes without saying though. the original paper on twobit, too.
23:34:16 <elliott> optbot: True, its... translation... is a bit "complicated".
23:34:17 <optbot> elliott: and key features
23:34:21 <elliott> optbot: What are fungot's key features?
23:34:21 <optbot> elliott: this is why I like atimes
23:34:21 <fungot> elliott: something a bit " messy" ( eg. keep precision when adding, subtracting or multiplying) wasnt executed at all.
23:34:29 <optbot> elliott: norway, sweden or denmark would be nice.
23:34:37 <elliott> optbot: Secret oerjan sympathiser!
23:34:37 <optbot> elliott: oklocod, it is the fruit of a type of tree
23:34:47 <elliott> optbot: So *that's* what the famous oklocod is!
23:34:47 <optbot> elliott: ISO-standard Lisp X-D
23:34:50 <elliott> zzo38: I don't know why it ignored you.
23:34:53 <optbot> elliott: or was it a modified fastcall?
23:34:55 <optbot> elliott: on a new string
23:35:15 <zzo38> elliott: I know why it ignored me. I put a CTRL+O in the middle of the words.
23:35:35 <elliott> optbot: How what the of it's only?
23:35:35 <optbot> elliott: i'll implement arithmetic while yo udo
23:35:46 <elliott> optbot: Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
23:35:46 <optbot> elliott: and isn't ifdeffed out either
23:36:00 -!- cheater- has joined.
23:36:22 <elliott> oerjan: and thus oerjan's punnes terribáles bot was reborn.
23:36:31 <elliott> (What, it was OerjansTerriblePuns -> otpbot -> optbot.)
23:36:31 <optbot> elliott: besides you can do it even in C89, using nested parens
23:37:21 <oerjan> as long as it isn't cannibáles
23:38:54 <elliott> oerjan: talk to optbot. he's really friendly.
23:38:55 <optbot> elliott: also the subtitle pun
23:39:21 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:39:46 <elliott> oerjan: :( you are making him sad.
23:40:03 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:40:46 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:40:47 <optbot> oerjan: because most roguelike games on public servers are streamed over telnet
23:40:58 <optbot> oerjan: first_input=input[1]; do mid[first_input,5,8] to [sub:ret]; Length(sub); i guess
23:41:14 <oerjan> optbot: yeah that would do it.
23:41:14 <optbot> oerjan: but seriously, just use sprite fonts
23:41:24 <oerjan> optbot: NO. NO SPRITES:
23:41:24 <optbot> oerjan: ignoring the fact that i changed my name to RatherUnnecessar to try and test it
23:41:45 <oerjan> optbot: well what that necess... oh.
23:41:45 <optbot> oerjan: when I was your age...
23:41:58 <elliott> optbot -- older than oerjan.
23:41:58 <optbot> elliott: I'm not sure what your concern is
23:42:00 <oerjan> optbot: YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN MY AGE
23:42:00 <optbot> oerjan: .pid file seems the easiest.
23:42:07 <elliott> oerjan: optbot never lies.
23:42:07 <optbot> elliott: when I used it (I was young and innocent, I didn't know better!)
23:42:14 <Gregor> Just finished easily my most complicated soda syrup batch yet.
23:42:44 <oerjan> Gregor: _and_ it didn't bring about the end of civilization!
23:43:00 <Gregor> I actually have gum arabic now.
23:43:22 <oerjan> Gregor: i'm sure that is a restricted substance, just by the name
23:43:57 <Gregor> Gum arabic is a somewhat outdated name for what is also called gum acacia.
23:44:04 <Gregor> And it's usually made in the Indian subcontinent :P
23:44:28 <oerjan> those filthy arabs, stealing gum and numbers
23:45:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
23:45:35 <elliott> Gregor: what do you think of OPTBOT
23:46:05 <quintopia> i don't like the arab numbers. i like the modern english number much better
23:46:39 <elliott> optbot gazes disapprovingly, quintopia.
23:46:39 <optbot> elliott: See my code you learn how the string functions help and how ES segment is used and so on
23:46:53 <zzo38> Even modern English are based on the Hindu-Arabic digits, I think.
23:47:01 <elliott> $ grep 'See my code you learn how the string functions help and how ES segment is used and so on' *
23:47:02 <elliott> 10.11.27:13:03:39 <zzo38> elliott: See my code you learn how the string functions help and how ES segment is used and so on
23:47:31 <quintopia> zzo38: modern american is based on british english too, but that doesn't mean that american isn't so much betterer!
23:47:34 <zzo38> elliott: Out of context it does not mean much.
23:47:52 <zzo38> quintopia: I didn't say anything was better or not.
23:48:12 <zzo38> (Also, different people have different opinion what is much better English language)
23:54:25 <quintopia> what is the real tangible advantage of quattuorsexagesimal computer systems? it seems like they are not strictly faster than duotrigesimal systems on average...
23:59:41 <zzo38> What is a good point size and square size for pieces on a chess board?
00:00:12 * Sgeo really, really wants to do what he's previously been told was impossible
00:00:33 <zzo38> Sgeo: What things are that?
00:00:48 <Sgeo> zzo38, booting into an .iso stored on the hard drive
00:01:25 <zzo38> Sgeo: Try figuring it out...
00:01:56 <zzo38> quintopia: Why do I want to know what?
00:02:19 <quintopia> zzo38: the best sizes for pieces on a chess board?
00:02:43 <zzo38> quintopia: To make the TeX chess program and METAFONT chessboard.
00:03:09 <quintopia> so by point sizes you mean, as in font points?
00:04:08 <quintopia> my answer: there is no best. it all depends.
00:04:22 <zzo38> OK, I guess that does make sense.
00:04:28 <zzo38> However I ought to put in some default.
00:15:15 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:22:14 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:28:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:38:29 <pikhq> Bleck. DST starts up again soon.
00:38:41 <pikhq> I DESPISE YE AND YOUR POINTLESS TIME FUCKING
00:38:49 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
00:41:59 <Sgeo> pikhq, you there/
00:42:24 <Sgeo> Is there only one Suzumiya Haruhi movie, or is there another, meaning I'm risking watching in the wrong order?
00:53:42 <Ilari> National pastime being screwing around with DST rules (it is in some countries) would be even worse.
00:54:08 <zzo38> I do not like DST either
00:55:29 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:56:25 <Ilari> Heh. I set this script to print high pings in red (normal ones in red). The threshold is 1ms.
00:57:13 <Ilari> (yes, it classifies 1.2ms ping as high)
01:08:03 <myndzi> lol @ risking watching in the wrong order when it comes to haruhi
01:08:13 <myndzi> it's funny you should mention that... ;)
01:12:41 -!- pumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
01:21:33 <Gregor> Obsession, thy name is libc.so!
01:23:04 * variable secretly bids against Gregor and forces him to pay me for the domain name
01:23:12 <variable> oops - did I say that in channel?
01:23:16 <Gregor> variable: Closed auction.
01:23:43 <Gregor> The fact that it's a closed auction is the only reason I have a chance :P
01:36:31 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:04:40 -!- copumpkin has joined.
02:34:02 <pikhq> Sgeo: So far, there is only one susùmiya haruhi movie.
02:54:27 <Sgeo> So, the spoiler I saw some time ago is apparently a very severe one
02:58:07 <pikhq> What, Haruhi being omnipotent?
02:58:17 <pikhq> That's not really a spoiler, that's more the premise.
02:59:38 <Sgeo> pikhq, I meant for the movie specifically
02:59:46 <Sgeo> Not ... the premise of the series
03:00:08 <Sgeo> (Although I've seen speculation about Kyon actually being the omnipotent one)
03:08:54 -!- augur has joined.
03:13:27 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
03:19:32 <Sgeo> Someone needs to put a warning for photosensitive epileptics on this movie
03:24:23 <pikhq> You'd think Japan would know that.
03:24:36 <pikhq> Considering the infamous episode of Pokémon only aired there...
03:24:44 <pikhq> And put hundreds in the hospital.
03:31:30 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
03:36:23 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
03:36:25 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
03:37:35 <Ilari> Lots of flickering?
03:43:16 -!- azaq231 has joined.
03:43:52 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
03:52:55 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
04:00:39 <Sgeo> pikhq_, should I seek out the Suzumiya Haruhi mangas?
04:05:57 <pikhq_> Sgeo: You may, however, wish to seek out the novels.
04:06:03 <pikhq_> As those are actually the original media.
04:07:08 <pikhq_> The anime, BTW, covered roughly the first volume.
04:07:30 <Sgeo> I saw the occasional spoiler on TV Tropes
04:08:40 -!- azaq23 has joined.
04:08:52 -!- azaq231 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
04:09:17 <pikhq_> Sweet. The Jefferson Bible is getting digitised.
04:09:39 <Zwaarddijk> I don't see how that's particularly sweet
04:09:49 <pikhq_> Zwaarddijk: I take it you're unfamiliar with the Jefferson Bible.
04:09:58 <pikhq_> Zwaarddijk: I take it you're unfamiliar with the Jefferson Bible.
04:10:08 <Zwaarddijk> it's the subset that jefferson considered uh, good.
04:10:45 <pikhq_> Among other things, it is devoid of supernatural claims.
04:11:01 <Zwaarddijk> anyone can see which claims in the bible are supernatural, so it's pretty trivial to filter those out?
04:11:29 <Zwaarddijk> of course, here's the point about "anyone can do that" "yeah so, it's trivial in retrospect" etc ...
04:11:58 <Zwaarddijk> and yeah sure, it has some historical relevance in that we can learn something about 19th century progressive-religious thought
04:12:18 <pikhq_> I'm sorry that I like the digitisation of important historical documents. :P
04:12:32 <Zwaarddijk> but when it comes to religious scholarship i kind of prefer the historical-critical methods in actual use by irreligious scholars
04:12:55 <Zwaarddijk> I think there's more important historical documents to attend to
04:13:38 <Zwaarddijk> and I don't see why that's particularly interesting. (a friend of mine's been collecting copies of nahuatl codices from just after the spanish conquista, I think those'd be more valuable, for one)
04:15:33 <Zwaarddijk> how much impact did the Jefferson bible have in America, btw?
04:15:56 <Zwaarddijk> did it inspire lots of people to become somewhat more moderate christians in america?
04:16:08 <Zwaarddijk> or did those that became moderate become so because of other reasons?
04:17:14 <Zwaarddijk> I'm not opposing the digitization, but uh ... I guess I'm a bit difficult to excite
04:17:29 <pikhq_> Absolutely no impact, because Jefferson did not publish for fear of getting lynched.
04:17:46 <pikhq_> However, Jefferson *himself* had an absurd amount of impact in the US.
04:18:09 <Zwaarddijk> but I think he, like pretty much everyone has even more impact as a kind of
04:18:22 <Zwaarddijk> uh, canvas onto which people project their own idealization
04:19:00 <pikhq_> I also think it's somewhat important to have a digitisation just so that I can shove it at people who claim that "This is a Christian nation; after all, the founding fathers were Christian."
04:19:16 <pikhq_> Jefferson took God out of the Bible, your argument is invalid!
04:20:50 <Zwaarddijk> but those people won't read the first paragraph of the jefferson bible even if you stick things in their eyes to keep the eyelids open
04:21:18 <pikhq_> In which case I'd much prefer a normal Bible.
04:21:28 <pikhq_> Significantly heavier object for beating clue into people.
04:21:46 <Zwaarddijk> I recommend you get a seriously commented edition
04:21:47 -!- augur has joined.
04:22:13 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
04:22:57 <Zwaarddijk> you could probably use them for sailing ballast, even
04:24:53 * pikhq_ is a preacher's child. Those suckers are fucking *heavy*.
04:25:17 <Zwaarddijk> I like the kind of language game that eisegesis and exegesis really is
04:25:27 <Zwaarddijk> I would like a game that basically just is a big book
04:25:53 <Zwaarddijk> which may be why I feel so attracted to the talmud
04:26:01 <Zwaarddijk> I know some games like nomic kind of get close
04:26:06 <pikhq_> Only problem is that it may evolve into a world religion.
04:26:29 <Zwaarddijk> if you make the content incomprehensible enough
04:26:41 <Zwaarddijk> I'm not saying stupid enough, I'm saying genuinely meaningless
04:26:49 <Zwaarddijk> the bible does contain meaning, it's just mistaken meaning
04:26:58 <Zwaarddijk> this should be meaning that barely registers as such
04:27:14 <pikhq_> And you'll get bible code shit coming out of it.
04:28:08 <Zwaarddijk> taken to ~trolling christian fora just for the sake of playing the game of exegesis/eisegesis
04:28:19 <Zwaarddijk> in general, I know the bible and christian history better than them anyway
04:29:04 <Zwaarddijk> I know the bible better than the other trolls too :|
04:29:21 <Zwaarddijk> mostly because of my interest for the talmud, though
04:29:57 <Zwaarddijk> and going off on tangents that you can spend days trying to figure out why that tangent even came up
04:30:59 <Zwaarddijk> in a way, I'm happy with the state of computational linguistics the day a computer actually can sort of understand what the talmud is on about
04:31:20 <Zwaarddijk> because then, we have conquered language games.
04:35:44 <Zwaarddijk> zen koans could maybe be another test case
04:52:20 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
05:04:45 -!- asiekierka has joined.
05:06:05 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:06:35 -!- Sgeo has joined.
05:14:52 -!- myndzi has joined.
05:22:34 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | Contrary to public belief[2], portals do not conserve momentum..
05:33:16 <pikhq_> ... Wut? There is a JVM written in .Net.
05:33:32 <pikhq_> I put a VM in your VM so you can VM while you VM.
05:41:45 <fizzie> It has an ahead-of-time compiler too if you don't wan't to VM while you VM. (Though "double JIT" does remind a bit of Battle Programmer Shirase.)
05:46:43 <pikhq_> I'm a bit surprised that it works *well* though.
05:53:41 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
05:58:32 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
06:14:05 -!- FireFly has joined.
06:35:29 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:58:23 <cheater-> pikhq_: there's python written in python.
07:06:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:08:59 <cheater-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qukCulDOJzg
07:28:26 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
07:31:11 -!- augur has joined.
07:34:26 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:33:20 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
08:33:20 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
08:33:20 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
08:36:00 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
09:17:46 <fizzie> The glitziest thing ever: http://mbostock.github.com/d3/
09:37:58 -!- cheater00 has joined.
09:40:11 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
09:41:32 -!- pikhq has joined.
09:41:36 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
10:18:48 -!- cheater- has joined.
10:20:32 -!- cheater- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:21:08 -!- cheater99 has joined.
10:21:31 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
11:02:04 <fizzie> "Don't fret, it's been defretted"?
11:22:23 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | we're compiling via a functional language.
11:41:10 -!- cheater00 has joined.
11:41:41 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
11:43:44 -!- FireyFly has joined.
12:09:34 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly.
12:12:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
12:17:26 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
12:17:26 -!- Deewiant has joined.
12:17:26 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
12:17:26 -!- clog has quit (ended).
12:17:31 -!- clog has joined.
12:17:31 -!- clog has joined.
12:18:26 -!- copumpkin has joined.
12:21:07 <quintopia> so this japan thing...haven't read the news...is it an eqrthquake or a tsunami?
12:21:23 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
12:21:26 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
12:22:50 -!- cheater00 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
12:23:03 -!- cheater00 has joined.
12:24:38 -!- cheater00 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:24:51 -!- cheater99 has joined.
12:37:31 <Ilari> The earthquake caused a tsunami
12:39:28 <Ilari> Reportedly the wave height at shore was ~10m in some places. Tsunami from earthquake top off at about 35m wave height (at shore). Some other mechanisms can generate huge tsunamis with 500m+(!!!) wave height.
12:40:22 <Ilari> Yes, over half a kilometer height.
12:42:10 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
12:58:02 <Ilari> Not really. Even if it was a huge wall of water (~250m).
13:00:35 <Ilari> I think it was that...
13:06:49 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
13:07:30 -!- elliott has joined.
13:08:37 -!- cheater99 has joined.
13:11:28 <nooga> microsoft xna is so lame
13:12:26 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
13:12:27 -!- elliott_ has joined.
13:12:33 <elliott_> 00:42:03 • Sgeo really, really wants to do what he's previously been told was impossible
13:12:35 <elliott_> 00:42:24 <zzo38> Sgeo: What things are that?
13:12:37 <elliott_> 00:42:38 <Sgeo> zzo38, booting into an .iso stored on the hard drive
13:12:39 <elliott_> Possible, but *only* with both bootloader and kernel support.
13:12:49 <elliott_> The kernel runs on the bare metal; it *must* know where to find its files, and thus know to mount the filesystem the iso is on and read it.
13:12:54 <elliott_> Only some versions of Linux can do this.
13:13:07 <elliott_> You can do this with GRUB 2 and some versions of Linux.
13:13:43 <elliott_> 01:23:51 <Sgeo> pikhq, you there/
13:13:43 <elliott_> 01:24:15 <Sgeo> Is there only one Suzumiya Haruhi movie, or is there another, meaning I'm risking watching in the wrong order?
13:13:43 <elliott_> Yes, this is _definitely_ a hard-to-Google question.
13:15:27 <Phantom_Hoover> It's like the guy in my school who allegedly posed as a girl in order to coerce naked pictures out of lesbians.
13:15:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Because there's a shortage of pictures of naked lesbians.
13:16:18 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: The only thing there are more naked pictures of than lesbians are people pretending to be lesbians.
13:17:10 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, even if he is some kind of lesbian photo connoisseur it's still way more effort than it's worth.
13:17:20 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: I WAS AGREEING WITH YOU
13:17:59 <Phantom_Hoover> In other news I want to get the latest version of Chrome but I have no idea how.
13:18:36 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
13:19:05 <elliott_> Chromium or Chrome, and which latest version?
13:19:18 <elliott_> i.e. for Chrome, which channel; for Chromium, which release or... uhhh... VCS commit
13:21:19 <Phantom_Hoover> It's just for a fractal viewer thing that looks interesting.
13:21:26 <elliott_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/WebGLScreenShot.png "Screenshot from a WebGL-based game running in a web browser"
13:22:20 <elliott_> Anyway, presumably you just want to switch to the official "ever-so-slightly-closed-source" Google version that updates through apt.
13:22:32 <elliott_> That's easier than building Chromium and keeping it up to date.
13:22:59 <elliott_> So remove Chromium and install the deb from http://www.google.com/chrome (it adds an apt repository, installs from it, and then self-destructs).
13:23:14 <elliott_> That's the stable channel, which should be fine (it has WebGL).
13:23:53 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, meet optbot. He died, but I revived him.
13:23:53 <optbot> elliott_: due to the way floating-point works
13:24:10 <elliott_> Yes. optbot's revival was entirely due to floating-point minutiae.
13:24:14 <optbot> elliott_: Version information is in manifest/*.ver within each zip. Contents
13:24:24 <optbot> elliott_: well so was this
13:25:01 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: He sets our channel topic every six hours and babbles in the same way.
13:25:06 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, in other stupid-ring-related news, turns out that rhenium looks awesome but has unknown toxicological effects, so it's unwise.
13:25:08 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Like the good old days.
13:25:14 <elliott_> EXCUSE ME, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT OPTBOT.
13:25:23 <fungot> fizzie: my english is too bad, but if it did not exceed fnord per gcc session.' then x is done.
13:25:32 <elliott_> fizzie: Erm, considering that optbot inspired fungot's babbling in the first place... :P
13:25:33 <optbot> elliott_: well, at least they're honest
13:25:33 <fungot> elliott_: arcus translation is better, amiga or atari.
13:25:43 <elliott_> optbot: fizzie is NOT honest at all
13:25:44 <fizzie> It's still competition.
13:25:49 <optbot> elliott_: "nor will they nerver be integrated"?
13:26:04 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:26:06 <elliott_> optbot: I hope you're never integrated with fungot, at least. That sounds wrong.
13:26:06 <optbot> elliott_: and he thought that the outside of that boundary-line was "definition" and then he asked me: What do you think is on the inside of that boundary?
13:26:06 <fungot> elliott_: or at least a month, and wasn't quite done ( modulo stuff like ipv4/ 6), still, i don't
13:26:21 <elliott_> optbot: You shouldn't talk to that other bot. He's a bad influence. Also crazy.
13:26:24 <optbot> elliott_: Also, you can't share Gmail messages.
13:26:28 <optbot> elliott_: Well, that was a fun experiment anyway :P
13:26:38 <elliott_> optbot: It may have been fun, but talking to fungot is NOT good for your health.
13:26:39 <fungot> elliott_: is that something you are looking for more bdb like approach. feeley doesn't agree. it " should replace the implementation of tco.
13:26:45 <elliott_> optbot: It's not good for your... Windows?
13:26:45 <optbot> elliott_: It's interesting how a beautiful mathematical framework can look all contrived and stuff once you turn it into a programming language
13:27:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Which beautiful mathematical framework is he talking about?
13:29:21 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: mv .config/chromium .config/google-chrome
13:29:32 <elliott_> (Remove the target directories first, obviously.)
13:29:37 <elliott_> (And close Chrome before all of it.)
13:29:45 <elliott_> <Phantom_Hoover> Which beautiful mathematical framework is he talking about?
13:29:50 <elliott_> How should I know? He's a bot.
13:30:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I know, but these are pulled from the logs, are they not?
13:32:32 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: How would I know?
13:34:09 <Phantom_Hoover> [[The "matter at hand" I was addressing was the double standard in ais523's argument, which is relevant, even if you don't understand why.]]
13:34:28 -!- copumpkin has joined.
13:38:36 <elliott_> how on earth does that moron still have 4 points
13:38:45 * elliott_ upvotes MatmaRex for being the only non-stupid reply
13:39:25 <elliott_> One of them is stupid, and the other one, MatmaRex wrote.
13:39:47 <elliott_> "To anyone who thinks this discovery has only dry theoretical importance, you're mistaken: It is no longer possible to righteously chastise people who claim to "program in HTML"." --the same idiot, top of the thread
13:39:56 <elliott_> The discovery could be said to only have "dry theoretical importance"...
13:40:03 <elliott_> yet it only "proves" something in "practice", not in "theory"...
13:40:23 <elliott_> Hey copumpkin, how's your downvote brigade these days
13:41:17 <elliott_> "Nope. While this very clever person was able to create a Turing-complete machine in HTML and CSS, it doesn't run by itself. The user has to repeatedly click to step it."
13:41:18 <elliott_> "ahem, Turing-completeness is about problems, not machines."
13:41:26 <elliott_> (Thankfully this one has -4 points.)
13:42:49 <elliott_> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/KindFact
13:43:02 <elliott_> I might just be saying that because Conor proposed it.
13:44:56 <quintopia> where is the whole html/css TC debate?
13:50:16 <quintopia> i thought it was going to be a bunch of folks being idiots. but it was just one guy.
13:51:03 <quintopia> i upvoted wreckerone though. very insightful
13:51:18 <elliott_> All six actives, of which ten or Finnish.
13:55:02 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.diamondworld.net/contentview.aspx?item=4242
13:55:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Based on the listed prices for the .5mm iridium wire, it actually seems relatively cheap to make a ring from it.
13:56:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Admittedly, metalworking costs need to be accounted for, but still.
13:59:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, I need to make the final draft of that Comic Sans essay.
14:15:32 -!- asiekierka has joined.
14:16:27 -!- cpressey has joined.
14:17:42 <elliott_> The Pythonistas are everywhere.
14:17:45 <elliott_> They could be in here right now.
14:18:14 <cpressey> the keynote speaker started her talk with a quine in python. this had nothing to do with the rest of her talk, so i guess it was there to prove that she's smart.
14:18:35 <cpressey> and she was like, "now try writing this in C!" howls of derisive laughter.
14:18:40 <elliott_> `addquote <cpressey> the keynote speaker started her talk with a quine in python. this had nothing to do with the rest of her talk, so i guess it was there to prove that she's smart. <cpressey> it was a cheat-quine
14:20:02 <elliott_> optbot: What is your opinion on Python?
14:20:02 <optbot> elliott_: what direction?
14:20:09 <elliott_> cpressey: What direction is all the Python?
14:21:14 <cpressey> all i know is it's got me down
14:21:18 <optbot> elliott_: I found this, rather interesting: gopher://blubb.ch/11/software/fbf
14:21:20 <cpressey> http://en.literateprograms.org/Quine_%28Python%29
14:21:24 <elliott_> cpressey: Gopher will set you free.
14:21:49 <elliott_> "Another way of implementing quines is to have them print the contents of their own files. This is made possible by the fact that Python is an interpreted language; in C, such a quine would be impossible, due to the difference between source code and executable file."
14:21:59 <cpressey> the slide was only up for a moment but I believe it was one from that page:
14:22:01 <cpressey> a= 'print "a=",repr(a);print "exec(a)"'; exec(a)
14:22:01 <elliott_> I like the part where these programs aren't literate at all
14:22:15 <elliott_> cpressey: hmm, I'm not sure that counts as a cheat
14:22:31 <elliott_> well right, that's pretty lame
14:22:47 <elliott_> very lame, but maybe not a cheat quine (i'd reserve cheat for programs that read their own source literally)
14:22:54 -!- pumpkin has joined.
14:22:56 <elliott_> (with the empty program not being considered a quine at all)
14:23:02 <elliott_> cpressey: well there's that standard lisp quine
14:23:07 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
14:23:27 <elliott_> ((lambda (x) (list x (list 'quote x))) '(lambda (x) (list x (list 'quote x))))
14:23:34 <elliott_> quote is... sorta... like repr... kinda
14:23:43 <elliott_> well, (list 'quote x) is sorta like repr. kinda.
14:23:46 <elliott_> hmm what was the one with eval
14:24:07 <elliott_> `addquote <cpressey> the keynote speaker started her talk with a quine in python. this had nothing to do with the rest of her talk, so i guess it was there to prove that she's smart. <cpressey> it was a cheat-quine
14:24:22 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: RTFEverything else :P
14:24:23 <HackEgo> 333) <cpressey> the keynote speaker started her talk with a quine in python. this had nothing to do with the rest of her talk, so i guess it was there to prove that she's smart. <cpressey> it was a cheat-quine
14:24:29 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: < cpressey> a= 'print "a=",repr(a);print "exec(a)"'; exec(a)
14:24:52 <elliott_> scheme@(guile-user)> ((lambda (x) (list x (list (quote quote) x))) (quote (lambda (x) (list x (list (quote quote) x)))))
14:24:53 <elliott_> $2 = ((lambda (x) (list x (list (quote quote) x))) (quote (lambda (x) (list x (list (quote quote) x)))))
14:25:27 <elliott_> cpressey: that quine thing on the literate programmings site just makes it a worse rosettacode...
14:25:33 <elliott_> they don't even print the <<filename>>= part of the program!
14:25:35 <cpressey> it's not really that it was a cheat-quine that makes me ill. it's that it had nothing to do with the rest of the talk, wasn't explained, and was apparently lifted off a web page with no credit given
14:25:54 <elliott_> the language source itself is the result of compilation, that's like a "quine" that prints out its own machine code
14:25:59 <elliott_> (not that that wouldn't be impressive)
14:26:15 <elliott_> especially if it stored its own source and compiled it on the fly :)
14:26:24 <cpressey> the rest of the talk was dippy too, actually, and the whole thing is just pissing me off.
14:26:43 <elliott_> cpressey: you haven't told us what exciting pythonicity it was about!!!
14:26:58 <cpressey> elliott_: it was about... "data science"!
14:27:10 <elliott_> It's about doing science on data.
14:27:13 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, elliott_ wants a picture of Guido van Rossum looking disappointed.
14:27:18 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: ALREADY FOUND ONE
14:27:34 <elliott_> (Actually I'd like to see him angry now, please get Guido really angry and/or disappointed and snap a picture.)
14:28:03 <elliott_> And, um, made it force everyone to use tabs.
14:28:18 <elliott_> And since you work for Microsoft it's going into Visual Studio 2012.
14:28:27 <elliott_> And being advertised as Microsoft Python.
14:28:34 <elliott_> Actually don't say that, he might cry.
14:29:20 <elliott_> "I write voting machines that give every vote to the Republicans. And it wouldn't have been possible, without Python."
14:31:46 <cpressey> http://us.pycon.org/2011/blog/2010/10/02/first-pycon-keynote-speaker-announced-hilary-mason/
14:32:16 <elliott_> cpressey: "I'm a computer science professor, data scientist, and web geek."
14:32:22 <elliott_> cpressey: WHY IS SHE A PROFESSOR
14:32:31 <cpressey> this is not the talk, but it is another talk by the same person, this year, so you can experience the /kind/ of pain I just went through: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWszSUm-x2Y
14:32:32 <elliott_> "She has discovered two new species, loves to bake cookies, and asks way too many questions."
14:32:54 <elliott_> "[LOL IT'S EARLY COFFEE JOKE]"
14:32:59 <elliott_> cpressey: _must_ i sit through this?
14:33:04 <cpressey> i have to decide now whether to kill myself or go on a month-long binge of exotic drugs
14:33:24 <elliott_> "I want to talk about data, and data, and people who work with data."
14:34:35 <elliott_> WORK WITH DATA BUILD INFRASTRUCTURE FOR DATA
14:34:35 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: just be prepared... for anything
14:34:46 <elliott_> cpressey: Liveblog or no reinforcements!
14:34:55 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, we might be able to get a flash drive with GHC on it through.
14:35:22 <elliott_> Honestly, if I could be in either cpressey's position, or in the position of someone endangered by the events in Japan...
14:35:50 <elliott_> cpressey: Is GHC 6.4 acceptable? 7 won't fit on the hundred floppy disks we have allocated to the task.
14:36:06 <elliott_> They will be dropped from a helicopter. Please be prepared to dodge as the roof falls.
14:36:24 <cpressey> i dunno about liveblogging but i'll keep you abreast of any further sickness.
14:36:44 <elliott_> cpressey: We're going to drop them so as to hit as many Pythonistas as possible.
14:36:44 <cpressey> that's just what this needs, actually
14:36:58 <elliott_> cpressey: Please purchase a device that can read 3 1/2" floppy disks.
14:37:27 <cpressey> i'll see what i can do. need to dive back into the fray now
14:37:30 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
14:38:35 <elliott_> pikhq_: So, is RTK3 actually worth buying, in the long run? 'TIS MONEYCOSTING
14:40:43 -!- augur has joined.
14:42:42 <quintopia> whoa. cpressey came back for...minutes!
14:43:07 <elliott_> quintopia: he was here yesterday too.
14:43:13 <elliott_> we don't know how much longer he'll last.
14:43:27 <elliott_> the 100 floppies should get there in a few hours
14:43:30 <elliott_> quintopia: because pycon is the worst thing ever
14:43:58 <elliott_> PyCon, from the root words pyc (torture-rape) and on (demonic-place), is more commonly known as "Hell".
14:45:45 -!- sftp has joined.
14:47:26 -!- cpressey has joined.
14:47:39 <cpressey> i only have an hour of battery
14:47:40 <elliott_> cpressey: * cpressey (~cpressey@conference/pycon/x-mcktulsevreylzfb) has joined #esoteric
14:47:52 <elliott_> cpressey: use webchat.freenode.net so it overrides it with your ip
14:48:03 <cpressey> i'm at a talk about celery. it's dull. THAT'S GOOD.
14:48:16 -!- Gregor has set channel mode: +b *!*@conference/pycon/*.
14:48:27 <elliott_> I wholeheartedly approve... but actually remove that :P
14:48:29 -!- Gregor has set channel mode: -b *!*@conference/pycon/*.
14:48:38 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
14:49:03 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: OK YOU WANT TO REPLACE "YOU ARE" WITH "YOUR" AND "YOU'RE" WITH "YOUR" AND "THEIR" WITH "YOUR"
14:49:15 <elliott_> i'm going to assume he means literally celery
14:49:16 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: THEN REPLACE "YOUR" WITH "YORE"
14:49:16 <elliott_> not http://celeryproject.org/.
14:49:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, NO I WANT YOU TO HELP ME SAY HOW AWFUL COMIC SANS IS
14:49:37 <cpressey> yeah, and my laptop is freaking out
14:50:14 <elliott_> cpressey: it can smell the python.
14:50:23 <elliott_> I suggest uninstalling it from your system to reassure it.
14:50:49 <cpressey> quintopia: http://us.pycon.org/2011/schedule/presentations/1/
14:51:00 <Gregor> Comic Sans is French for "not funny"
14:51:13 <cpressey> i can barely type -keystrokes dropped or repeated
14:51:23 <elliott_> cpressey: SUDO APTITUDE PURGE PYTHON
14:51:33 <elliott_> -2.5 or -2.6 or -25 or whatever :P
14:51:39 <cpressey> i read that as "sudooooooooooooooooooooooooooo appetite"
14:51:44 <cpressey> well, not the ooooooo part so much
14:51:51 <Gregor> elliott_: I'm bending it a bit to make it grammatically meaningful :P
14:52:09 <elliott_> Sudo Appetite, the worst superhero.
14:52:30 <oklopol> "<Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, NO I WANT YOU TO HELP ME SAY HOW AWFUL COMIC SANS IS" <<< you're still on this?
14:52:40 <Gregor> Apatite, the best mineral there is.
14:53:42 <oklopol> i don't get any of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWszSUm-x2Y
14:54:20 <oklopol> except that amazing stuff is going on
14:54:21 <elliott_> How PyCon orders partners: Media, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Diamond.
14:55:23 <cpressey> oklopol: is that the link i pasted earlier?
14:55:47 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, WHY ARE NEITHER IRIDIUM NOR RUTHENIUM ON THAT LIST
14:55:50 <nooga> Media, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Ladder.
14:57:00 <cpressey> oklopol: welcome to data science
14:57:34 <oklopol> i've taken courses like that
14:57:50 <oklopol> well. less hype, but anyhow something about data. i didn't get it.
14:59:02 <cpressey> i hould try to save battery for more objectionable moments than this talk.
14:59:23 <elliott_> and tell him to say hi to #esoteric
14:59:46 <Phantom_Hoover> So should I try to get APT guy into PyCon as an agent?
15:02:09 <elliott_> Meanwhile: http://i.imgur.com/rcna5.jpg
15:03:19 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
15:04:14 <quintopia> so chris is interested in testing eh
15:04:41 <elliott_> quintopia: I have this feeling he's there because of his employer :P
15:05:32 <elliott_> quintopia: Cat's Eye Technologies.
15:06:29 <quintopia> well, he signed up for a testing BoF tomorrow...
15:07:10 <elliott_> he's just a code monkey afaik. which involves involves writing tests in this Enlightened Age
15:07:28 <elliott_> http://us.pycon.org/2011/schedule/
15:08:10 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
15:09:03 <quintopia> code mlnkey seems okay. you have a chair and you get paid. then you can think about whatever you want when you get home
15:09:04 -!- copumpkin has joined.
15:10:03 <elliott_> quintopia: except it's Python.
15:10:11 <elliott_> You have to deal with the Pythonistas and their Pythonicness.
15:10:22 <elliott_> Extreme Programming Best Practices Design Patterns
15:10:40 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, I am so glad I have never heard anyone say these things.
15:10:52 <quintopia> YES, DEALING WITH PEOPLE IS THE DOWNSIDE OF THE JOB
15:11:04 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Just wait for the First International #esoteric Conference.
15:11:18 <elliott_> I'm going to give a talk on Extreme Design Pattern Practices and how to use your code fu to become a ninja rockstar.
15:11:25 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Whoa, that many?!
15:11:28 <quintopia> elliott_: eh fixing their code is easier than talking to them
15:12:01 <elliott_> Finland would be the "logical" choice to maximise participants, but then anywhere in that part of Europe is pretty much interchangable, flights take like 0 seconds and cost £0.
15:12:21 <elliott_> There's a non-negligible amount of American here after all.
15:12:33 <elliott_> Probably the UK or Finland would be the best choice... not that anyone would show up.
15:12:53 <quintopia> is it still normal to say a certain building is "in" a certain street in british english?
15:13:08 -!- blueraf has joined.
15:13:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, coppro, elliott_, fizzie, Ilari, oklopol, me (I hope), pikhq_, quintopia, Sgeo (arguably), Vorpal (*very* loosely).
15:13:55 -!- blueraf has left (?).
15:14:41 <tswett> I don't respond to pings in this channel. Sorry.
15:14:46 <elliott_> Everyone else almost certainly doesn't care enough to come :-P
15:14:56 <augur> it was my birthday yesterday
15:15:04 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: fizzie would drag him along.
15:15:08 <elliott_> augur: Congratulations on not dying.
15:15:18 <elliott_> tswett: I wonder if that's a script.
15:15:22 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, congratulations, you have successfully allowed time to affect you.
15:15:26 <tswett> I don't respond to pings in this channel. Sorry.
15:16:08 <elliott_> oklopol: yes, just like a woman!
15:16:11 <tswett> I don't respond to pings in this channel. Sorry.
15:16:30 <elliott_> tswett: Either you have rand() calls, or that's not a script :P
15:16:32 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Y'know what normal users who aren't idiots do? Contribute to the Gregoran Somalian Relief Fund
15:16:58 <tswett> I don't respond to pings in this channel. Sorry.
15:17:41 <tswett> I don't respond to pings in this channel. Sorry.
15:17:46 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:17:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, I AM SORRY BUT I AM NOT ALLOWED TO GIVE MONEY TO YOU BECAUSE YOU MIGHT BE A PAEDOPHILE
15:18:01 <elliott_> Donate to me; I'm *definitely* a paedophile.
15:18:41 <oklopol> haha you mean you like kids your own age
15:18:48 -!- wareya has joined.
15:19:59 <oklopol> wait tswett doesn't respond to pings on this channel?
15:20:06 <tswett> Come, now. I don't just say "dicks dicks dicks". I say specific things about dicks.
15:21:38 <Phantom_Hoover> `addquote <Warrigal> My penis is definitely way smaller than that.
15:21:39 <HackEgo> 333) <Warrigal> My penis is definitely way smaller than that.
15:22:14 <elliott_> In the the famous Sizes of Things as Compared to Tanner Swett's Genitalia?
15:22:24 <tswett> No, on reddit. I got about 70 karma points for that one.
15:22:37 <elliott_> And then promptly exchanged those karma points for money.
15:22:39 <tswett> Okay, 61 karma points.
15:22:54 <tswett> And yes, the wording and punctuation and everything are all correct.
15:23:00 <tswett> http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/ch7hq/it_takes_7_seconds_for_food_to_pass_from_mouth_to/c0sk64d
15:23:19 <elliott_> Your penis is indeed definitely smaller than that 404.
15:23:31 <Gregor> http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/GregorRichards/hdtva_actual_size.png
15:23:49 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: some guy once redeemed his karma for a golden reddit alien torso.
15:23:55 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: It can buy several goods such as blowjobs and blowjobs.
15:24:05 <tswett> Someone click on Gregor's link and tell me what it's a picture of. :P
15:24:08 <elliott_> It is a currency based on blowjobs.
15:24:30 <elliott_> tswett: It's a picture of your penis as compared to the sizes of other objects.
15:24:59 <elliott_> Gregor: Oh, that's an aerial? :P
15:25:19 <tswett> I can't tell what that big long thing on top is.
15:25:37 <elliott_> Scientists have yet to discover what the big long thing on top of tswett's penis is.
15:25:40 <tswett> I guess it's an aerial, like Gregor said.
15:25:55 <elliott_> tswett: Quick, go downvote ais523 and upvote __j_random_hacker! http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/g0d5g/breaking_news_html5css3_is_turing_complete/c1k03fg
15:26:01 <elliott_> Here I am using the psychological principle of reverse psychology.
15:26:10 <tswett> That thing's a good fifteen feet long.
15:26:18 <tswett> (Metric conversion: about 5 meters.)
15:27:13 <Gregor> http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/GregorRichards/hdtva_really_actual_size.png
15:27:44 <tswett> Is that a picture of an HDTVA?
15:28:12 <tswett> Oh, it's a picture of this: http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=hdtva&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=8433157347537932007&sa=X&ei=ZUl6TZvfDsHirAGsleiQBg&ved=0CEAQ8wIwAg#
15:28:18 <elliott_> Gregor: Expect next picture to compare it to the Milky Way.
15:28:34 <tswett> Here's a better link to it: http://www.google.com/products/catalog?cid=8433157347537932007
15:29:26 <elliott_> (The aerial is slightly smaller)
15:29:35 <tswett> The next picture will compare it to itself.
15:29:55 <elliott_> tswett: Excuse me, having executed a successful Jew joke, the thread of discussion is now over.
15:30:09 <Gregor> elliott_: http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/GregorRichards/hdtva_the_one_true_and_real_actual_.png How'd yah know :P
15:30:12 <tswett> Is Gregor of Jewish descent?
15:30:23 <elliott_> tswett: You misspelled ``kikeular''.
15:30:49 <elliott_> Gregor: OBSERVABLE UNIVERSE, THEN YOUR NOSE, KTHX
15:30:52 <tswett> But "kike" isn't a Latin root ending in a consonant.
15:30:53 <oklopol> executing jews is NOT a joke
15:31:04 <elliott_> That Hubble picture would work too.
15:31:05 <oklopol> even if they're succesful jews.
15:31:10 <elliott_> http://www.firstpr.com.au/astrophysics/hubble-deep-field/Hubble-Deep-Field-1024-wide.jpg
15:31:20 <Gregor> elliott_: I made these YEARS ago :P
15:31:30 <elliott_> Gregor: You must complete the sequence.
15:31:50 <elliott_> Ending with it resting on top of your nose.
15:32:34 <oklopol> i'm so gonna go out to drink with some friends now
15:34:28 <elliott_> memetech.com now completely replaced.
15:34:39 <elliott_> I will have to attempt to contact the owner.
15:35:29 <elliott_> oiu manifesto + cap system pdf.
15:38:37 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: See http://web.archive.org/web/20080411221531/http://www.memetech.com/, though that lacks the cap stuff.
15:39:48 <Phantom_Hoover> You'd've thought that with all these people trying to make essentially the same OS, some tangible progress would have been made.
15:41:13 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: There's no way everyone's trying to make the same OS; the most common property is distinctness from Unix.
15:41:36 <elliott_> The fact that their bases (plural of basis!) share quite a bit of material is due only to the *sheer obviousness* of those ideas.
15:42:01 <elliott_> Yes, because you have to try hard to be stupid to invent a filesystem if you ignore Unix.
15:46:49 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
15:48:57 <elliott_> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god. <Phantom_Hoover> I've become a metallurgy hipster. <Phantom_Hoover> Iridium is way too mainstream.
15:48:57 <HackEgo> 334) <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god. <Phantom_Hoover> I've become a metallurgy hipster. <Phantom_Hoover> Iridium is way too mainstream.
15:52:32 <tswett> I know the tiniest bit about metalworking.
15:52:51 -!- Zuu has joined.
15:52:53 <tswett> Metals melt when you get them hot enough. Liquid metals can be mixed.
15:53:10 <tswett> Metal is easier to work when it's hotter.
15:53:39 <tswett> When metal is cooled slowly, it ends up relatively soft; if it's cooled quickly, it ends up harder.
15:54:04 <elliott_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/HEUraniumC.jpg ;; perfect ring material
15:54:18 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, in case you missed it, I spent yesterday evening looking up platinum group metals and their practicality as rings.
15:55:10 <tswett> Which of the platinum group metals is the cheapest?
15:55:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Osmium looks really cool, but it has the obnoxious property of oxidising in air to a highly toxic gas.
15:55:37 <Phantom_Hoover> There's not really a single source that I can find that's grounded in reality.
15:56:18 <elliott_> [Name]... will you marry me? [PSSSSSSSSSSSHT] "Well, our love will persist beyond the grave."
15:56:42 <elliott_> (PSSSSSSSSSSSHT is the noise osmium makes when it oxidises into a highly toxic gas.)
15:56:57 <elliott_> OXIDISES INTO HIGHLY TOXIC GAS
15:57:01 -!- asiekierka has joined.
15:57:16 <Phantom_Hoover> But I still wouldn't want it around my finger for protracted periods.
15:57:17 <tswett> Looks like at the moment, palladium is in fact cheaper than platinum.
15:57:46 <elliott_> Palladium is quite the borings.
15:57:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Same goes for ruthenium, although it's normally electroplated AFAICT.
15:57:57 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: DEMAND RADON RING
15:58:27 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Demand solid radon ring.
15:58:47 <tswett> And rhodium appears to be more expensive than platinum.
15:58:49 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, I did find a source for iridium and osmium which listed prices.
15:59:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, rhodium is really rare and really useful, hence expensive.
15:59:49 <Phantom_Hoover> I found samples of osmium and ruthenium on eBay, although I suspect they'd be even harder to use than wire.
16:00:00 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: ^{286}Uut ring please.
16:00:10 <elliott_> Half-life of ~20s, that's good enough for anyone.
16:00:24 <Phantom_Hoover> (Rhenium has the second-highest melting point of any metal.)
16:00:53 <tswett> Roentgenium is more noble and more discovered than ununtrium.
16:01:10 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: the highest is tungsten, right?
16:01:17 <elliott_> tswett: On the other hand, your mom is more noble than ... things.
16:01:37 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: I really want a ring made out of CP.
16:01:39 <tswett> My chemistry teacher once said something like, "Why don't we make rings out of lithium? Because they would burn your hand off."
16:01:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, it does appear that others have considered rhenium rings, but it's still hipsterish enough.
16:01:59 <tswett> elliott_: made out of... carbon phosphide?
16:02:13 <elliott_> Also known by mainstreamers as CoPernicium.
16:02:23 <elliott_> Unfortunately for SOME reason it was assigned Cn instead of Cp.
16:03:10 <tswett> I wonder what the heaviest element with a Wikipedia article is.
16:03:22 -!- cpressey has joined.
16:04:02 <cpressey> was at a talk about unit tests. it was relatively sane, so i listened.
16:04:12 <cpressey> i'm about to experience: http://us.pycon.org/2011/schedule/presentations/245/
16:04:36 <elliott_> cpressey: found a socket to charge yet?
16:04:38 <cpressey> yeah, i'm doing this one for your entertainment.
16:04:45 <tswett> Looks like it's untriseptium.
16:04:46 <elliott_> wow, this is a metapresentation.
16:04:51 <cpressey> and no, they haven't turned on me yet.
16:05:02 <elliott_> but have they turned you on?! obligatory, had to, move along
16:05:13 <tswett> Darn atomic instability. I want every possible chemical element to be possible.
16:05:29 <cpressey> there are two categories of talks, afaict: 'novice' and 'extreme'.
16:05:34 <elliott_> I WANT RING MADE OUT OF AN ALLOY OF EVERY SINGLE ELEMENT.
16:05:45 <elliott_> --http://us.pycon.org/2011/schedule/
16:05:59 <elliott_> this does not appear to be an extreme course. so maybe we can handle it.
16:06:22 <cpressey> all extreme talks are given in henry rollins style!
16:06:31 <elliott_> that's a pycon i could support.
16:07:20 <elliott_> cpressey: How much do we have to pay you to get you to run up on stage and yell about how unChristian this evil feminist tripe is?
16:08:12 <Phantom_Hoover> MAKE EVERYTHING OUT OF STUPIDLY RARE METALS THAT YOU GET FROM THEM
16:08:17 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Read as "asteroid naming"; well, they already do theorems and stars and things.
16:08:33 <elliott_> I wonder what the most promiscuous possible alloy is.
16:09:39 <elliott_> I MEAN THE ONE WITH MOST CONSTITUENT ELEMENTS JEEZ
16:10:33 <cpressey> i have to wait for the most embarassing possible moment
16:16:50 <elliott_> 13:29:59 <SimonRC> Is there anything like the Internet WRT that affair?
16:16:50 <elliott_> 13:30:27 <SimonRC> I can't think other time that taking firm action against a problem makes it 100,000 times worse.
16:16:50 <elliott_> Sure thing, Barbara Streisand.
16:32:01 <elliott_> 08:31:10 <pikhq> There is no OS but GNU, and Linux is one of it's kernels.
16:32:39 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, YOU ARE NO LONGER A MEMBER OF THE SET OF COOL PEOPLE
16:47:12 <elliott_> 13:30:08 <CakeProphet> ...you made a program that...
16:47:12 <elliott_> 13:30:10 <CakeProphet> prints itself?
16:48:00 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
16:59:41 -!- elliott_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:02:52 -!- elliott has joined.
17:04:47 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | could it be rescripted so that the ball, as soon as it hits it, just disappears and you lose a point?.
17:13:37 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:20:44 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish#The_language_defined_by_the_Revised_Revised_Revised_Revised_Revised_Report_on_the_Algorithmic_Language_Scheme
17:20:46 <elliott> NEW DEADFISH IMPLEMENTATION
17:22:12 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | !kill 2.
17:27:45 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | the protocol must be a valid URI protocol..
17:27:47 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | Yeah, I suppose it could be used like that.
17:27:48 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | @unpl flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip.
17:28:07 <Phantom_Hoover> @unpl flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip
17:28:07 <lambdabot> (\ cg cj -> cg cj (\ g h i -> g i h))
17:28:18 <Phantom_Hoover> @unpl flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip
17:28:19 <lambdabot> (\ cj cm -> cj cm (\ g h i -> g i h))
17:29:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's unpl.
17:30:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It expands things that are used in pointfree code.
17:30:14 <elliott> flip is one of those things.
17:30:15 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Functor f) => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b
17:33:23 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:34:08 <oerjan> argh the bubble wrap of topics
17:34:22 <elliott> @unpl flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip
17:34:23 <lambdabot> (\ cg cj -> cg cj (\ g h i -> g i h))
17:34:39 <elliott> @unpl flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip
17:34:39 <lambdabot> (\ cj cm -> cj cm (\ g h i -> g i h))
17:34:41 <oerjan> elliott: i thought you might which is the only reason i resisted
17:34:58 <elliott> @unpl flip flip flip flip flip
17:35:00 <elliott> @unpl flip flip flip flip flip flip
17:35:39 <oerjan> flip and fmap, are there any others like that...
17:37:15 <oerjan> flip flip flip flip = flip flip flip, surely...
17:37:49 <oerjan> oh right that's what you said
17:38:01 * oerjan read it as flip^(3+n) === flip^n
17:46:57 <elliott> oerjan: quick, we need more deadfish implementations!!!!!
17:48:37 <oerjan> i'm afraid my dinner is not useful for computation. not until the results reach my brain, anyhow.
17:49:50 <elliott> oerjan: no no i just mean it in general
17:49:59 <elliott> i've done the language defined by the Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme
17:50:06 <elliott> but we only have 22 implementations
17:50:22 <oerjan> ah. i may have a certain experience in the matter.
17:50:34 <elliott> cpressey has done falcon :D
17:51:05 <elliott> it doesn't use oob though :(
17:51:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Most awesomely crazy Falcon idea: store numbers in arrays of arbitrary objects.
17:52:08 <elliott> Store a natural as a list of log_2 random numbers.
17:52:20 <elliott> Or even log_2(n) empty lists.
17:58:56 -!- Vonlebio has joined.
17:59:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Waste of time (I'm in #falcon preemptively, mind you)
18:07:08 -!- Vonlebio has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:07:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit, Falcon always beats me when it comes down to stupidity.
18:07:54 <elliott> Drag to level, beat with experience, etc.
18:08:33 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, incidentally, I have decided that iridium is a pretty terrible investment.
18:10:06 <Phantom_Hoover> As the suppliers I have found have been technical suppliers.
18:10:45 <Phantom_Hoover> So I wouldn't count on the prices being either stable or indicative of the "worth".
18:11:05 -!- cpressey has joined.
18:11:14 <Phantom_Hoover> As actually refining the rarer platinum group metals is a very tricky process.
18:11:32 <cpressey> "a raw string cannot end in a single backslash (since the backslash would escape the following quote character)"
18:11:42 <elliott> <cpressey> "a raw string cannot end in a single backslash (since the backslash would escape the following quote character)"
18:11:50 <elliott> I like how raw strings aren't actually raw, mind you.
18:11:55 <cpressey> literal string syntax in python is a trainwreck
18:12:29 <elliott> cpressey: I kinda liked James Hague's idea when he suggested that strings should have no escapes at all, and that \n should be added "by default" with printing functions...
18:12:38 <elliott> With a few symbolic constants for the few common ones.
18:12:45 <elliott> (And chr() or similar for the rest.)
18:12:55 <elliott> I print \n quite a lot, so I'm not sure I totally agree. Maybe just have string interpolation, but no escales.
18:13:06 <elliott> So if char syntax has \n, you'd say ${'\n'} or whatever for a newline.
18:13:10 <elliott> ($ is a bad choice though.)
18:13:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Same way you put other escapes.
18:13:30 <cpressey> i'm at the end of my first "extreme" talk; i couldn't find much difference with the "novice" talks in terms of complexity of content, but the speaker *does* have a kind of gravelly voice
18:13:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes it is...
18:14:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought the point is that "foo\n" => "foo\n" and the \n is only substituted when printed?
18:14:42 <elliott> For reference, my jaw is currently situated on the floor.
18:14:52 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> cpressey: I kinda liked James Hague's idea when he suggested that strings should have no escapes at all, and that \n should be added "by default" with printing functions...
18:15:09 <elliott> Uhh, that just means that print(x) should add a newline.
18:15:10 <cpressey> i may be misremembering his post
18:15:30 <elliott> http://prog21.dadgum.com/76.html
18:16:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No. That's an unbelievably terrible idea.
18:16:17 <cpressey> i don't like the idea of i/o functions "executing" escape sequences
18:16:24 <cpressey> well, or maybe i do, but i don't think so
18:16:32 <elliott> Maybe if it was some kind of expand() function.
18:16:37 <elliott> <elliott> Uhh, that just means that print(x) should add a newline.
18:16:38 <elliott> <elliott> Uhh, that just means that print(x) should add a newline.
18:16:38 <elliott> <elliott> Uhh, that just means that print(x) should add a newline.
18:16:51 <cpressey> expand() function seems to make more sense, but... lazy/streaming
18:16:52 <elliott> And lawd knows everyone loves printf!!
18:16:59 <Phantom_Hoover> So it is a message to the print function, not the parser?
18:17:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: THERE IS NO \N
18:17:09 <elliott> print(x) := print(x); printnewline()
18:18:29 <elliott> hmm, i should write a real forth os rather than trying to finish this 510-byte thing :)
18:18:38 <elliott> butbutbut i almost have a compiler...
18:18:41 <cpressey> in haskell it should be Ln . putStr
18:18:52 <elliott> cpressey: that... almost makes sense
18:19:02 <elliott> data Output = Str String | Ln [String]?
18:19:35 <cpressey> well, Ln x just appends a newline to the string x... then you putStr it.
18:19:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's ugly.
18:20:00 <elliott> cpressey: that would be "putStr . Ln".
18:20:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I know you have high standards, but how can you mess up an output function that simple?
18:20:06 <elliott> but then Ln would have to be a constructor, not a function.
18:20:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: IT'S NOT A BAD FUNCTION
18:20:18 <elliott> You're misinterpreting simple statements a lot today :P
18:20:23 <cpressey> elliott: that's what i wanted to write, but i forgot which compose operator did which
18:20:33 <elliott> cpressey: there is no operator for the other way around (unless you define one)
18:20:36 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, at no point did you indicate you were talking about the name rather than the function.
18:20:49 <cpressey> wonder what i was thinking of then
18:20:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Considering that cpressey's and my points were names...
18:20:53 <elliott> <elliott> cpressey: haskell
18:21:11 <elliott> Demonic Functional Language from Hell? AKA: Scala?
18:21:17 <elliott> Demonic Functional Language from Hell? AKA: F#?
18:21:20 <elliott> Demonic Functional Language from Hell? AKA: Haskell?
18:21:34 <elliott> cpressey: everyone must learn Scala, or every other language
18:21:38 <cpressey> Scala is the hot new thing because no one uses it
18:22:15 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
18:24:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I cannot attribute Sgeo's behaviour to anything other than languagephilia.
18:25:28 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, "neo" in the sense of "I haven't used it before".
18:28:08 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=271521
18:29:51 <variable> Chuck Norris is the only person who knows how bad jokes about him ar
18:30:24 <elliott> Order Chuck's brand new book, "The Official Chuck Norris Fact Book: 101 of Chuck's Favorite Facts and Stories"
18:30:24 <elliott> Read more: U.S. public schools: Progressive indoctrination camps http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=271521#ixzz1GJtbVKvc
18:30:27 -!- cheater00 has joined.
18:30:56 <variable> Phantom_Hoover: Re is a chemical. That is all :-)
18:32:42 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
18:37:45 <tswett> http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=878UP&x=0&y=0
18:38:05 <tswett> Serial number A-113. Model "CARL FREDRECKSENS". Experimental balloon-type aircraft.
18:44:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:44:27 <tswett> Of course, the picture is much more interesting than that information.
18:45:54 <elliott> tswett: I like the part where you didn't show us a picture.
18:45:54 <tswett> http://i.imgur.com/tC1aZ.jpg
18:46:32 <tswett> It would be kind of silly if it weren't real.
18:46:32 <elliott> hmmbut, i thought some totally sciency people concluded you'd need like, so many balloons :|
18:46:35 <elliott> how can i believe this picture.
18:46:45 <tswett> "Hey, we made an imaginary thing based on an imaginary thing. Isn't that awesome?"
18:46:51 <tswett> I suppose the house is really light or something.
18:47:04 -!- pumpkin has joined.
18:47:41 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:47:58 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:47:58 <tswett> Besides, these balloons are big.
18:48:42 <elliott> That's what... she... said?
18:48:46 <elliott> In response to seeing that picture.
18:55:04 <oerjan> <elliott> cpressey: there is no operator for the other way around (unless you define one) <-- Control.Arrow.>>>
18:55:20 <elliott> oerjan: yeah, if you're an elitist academician
18:57:07 <tswett> @unpl flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip
18:57:07 <lambdabot> (\ cg cj -> cg cj (\ g h i -> g i h))
18:57:29 <tswett> @unpl flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip
18:57:29 <lambdabot> (\ cj cm -> cj cm (\ g h i -> g i h))
18:57:46 <tswett> @type flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip flip
18:58:47 <tswett> @unpl flip flip flip flip
18:58:56 <tswett> It looks like flip flip flip = flip flip flip flip.
18:58:59 <elliott> flip flip flip flip === (flip flip) flip flip === flip flip flip
18:59:22 <elliott> flip flip flip X === (flip flip) flip X === flip X flip.
18:59:48 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:00:02 <tswett> But flip^(3+n) === flip^n means that this thing has period 3. It doesn't; it has period 1 starting at 3.
19:00:48 <elliott> You may now commit seppuku.
19:00:53 <tswett> Let n = 1 in "flip^(3+n) === flip^n". Tell me what you get.
19:00:54 -!- Deewiant has joined.
19:01:28 <elliott> I meant === flip^3, of course.
19:01:53 -!- Gregor has set topic: Please coperate with this channel's strict diaeresis mark requirements | I couldn't think of a more relevant word with a diaeresis ... | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
19:01:58 <elliott> tswett: Alternateively: NOPE IT'S RIGHT CLEARLY YOU'RE RETARDED
19:02:10 <tswett> You're right about one thing.
19:02:23 <tswett> At least one thing, I mean.
19:02:38 <tswett> Out of all the things you've ever said.
19:02:44 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | but you're only supposed to pass things in the char range or EOF as arguments to it.
19:02:49 <elliott> Gregor: Excuse me, optbot has returned.
19:02:49 <optbot> elliott: [1 % 2,1 % 8,0 % 1,(-1) % 192,0 % 1,1 % 2880,0 % 1,(-17) % 645120,0 % 1,31 % 14515200,0 % 1,(-691) % 3832012800,0 % 1,5461 % 5115781120,0 % 1,(-929569) % 64134053888,0 % 1,(-3202291) % 3593732096,0 % 1,221930581 % 16817061888,0 % 1,(-4722116521) % 2090860544,0 % 1,968383680827 % 12415139840,0 % 1,(-14717667114151) % 7415529472,0 % 1,2093660879252671 % 11005853696,0 % 1,86125672563201181 % 5637144576,0 % 1]
19:02:56 <elliott> Please follow Optbot Topic Policy, i.e. HE OWNZ UR SHIT
19:03:05 <elliott> (Note: POLICY NOT ACTUALLY A POLICY)
19:03:09 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | doesn't work..
19:03:16 -!- Gregor has set channel mode: +t.
19:03:16 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -t.
19:03:36 <Gregor> My @ gives me no real power :(
19:03:42 -!- Gregor has set topic: Please coperate with this channel's strict diaeresis mark requirements | I couldn't think of a more relevant word with a diaeresis ... | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
19:06:13 <elliott> you know oerjan, I'm fairly sure you can add ops to chanserv >:D
19:06:31 <oerjan> yes, i'm pretty sure i can do that
19:07:14 <elliott> so you should do that now.
19:07:25 <oerjan> i'm not quite so sure of that.
19:07:52 <Gregor> You could add the relevant access to, say, some long-lasting, relatively-mild-mannered user with a capitalized nick.
19:08:12 <oerjan> yes i could also do that.
19:08:22 <elliott> You should give it to oklopol
19:08:34 <pikhq_> You could also add the access to fungot, our most important member.
19:08:34 <fungot> pikhq_: that's not too difficult to implement than malloc.
19:08:49 <elliott> oerjan: Wait, give it to Deewiant. or ais523. Nobody could ever possibly object to them ever.
19:08:58 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: For which purposes?
19:09:51 <Gregor> I object to Deewiant. He's a deewiant.
19:10:07 <Gregor> I think he might be Russian too.
19:10:27 <oerjan> you may notice lament is already an op.
19:10:38 <Gregor> I was making a bad joke w.r.t. v->w :P
19:10:44 <tswett> Gregor: I'm guessing it wouldn't be very hilarious if you opped me. How can I convince you that opping me is what you want?
19:10:45 <elliott> he's in Finland. same thing
19:11:04 <elliott> Ah, tswett approach to the AI Box problem: "Hey human, how can I convince you to let me out of the box?"
19:11:14 <oerjan> Gregor: i am not aware that russian uses overly much w's...
19:11:18 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Iridum. Covered in precious gemstones.
19:11:28 <pikhq_> (avoid the diamond; those suckers have no real value)
19:11:36 <tswett> elliott: it's a good approach to some things that are not the AI Box problem.
19:11:42 <elliott> tswett: But not getting opped :P
19:11:51 <tswett> I don't know. Gregor hasn't spoken yet.
19:11:57 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
19:11:58 <tswett> Maybe he's planning to op me but hasn't gotten around to it.
19:14:43 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, the ultra-relevant quote in question is <HackEgo> 334) <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god. <Phantom_Hoover> I've become a metallurgy hipster. <Phantom_Hoover> Iridium is way too mainstream.
19:15:09 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BitZ fml
19:15:12 <tswett> For a non-mainstream metal, I suggest...
19:15:19 <oerjan> I was into iridium before the stars started producing it.
19:15:57 <pikhq_> I was into hydrogen before atoms.
19:17:21 <tswett> Osmium... that's definitely way too mainstream.
19:17:28 <elliott> But Osmium was Phantom_Hoover's favourite!
19:17:37 <elliott> Unfortunately, Douchebag Osmium:
19:17:48 <elliott> OXIDISES INTO HIGHLY TOXIC GAS
19:18:07 <pikhq_> How's about some californium?
19:18:09 <elliott> That's multiple letters away from semen!
19:18:19 <tswett> If you want a non-mainstream metal, go with samarium.
19:18:28 <elliott> Go with [insert metal band here]
19:18:50 * pikhq_ can't name any non-mainstream metal bands, so.
19:19:13 <pikhq_> I mean, sure I could *say*, say, Black Sabbath, but that's pretty mainstream.
19:19:43 <optbot> tswett: for some the length mod 3 might be important ;)
19:19:45 <elliott> optbot: Talk to tswett. He's lonely.
19:19:45 <optbot> elliott: Universe hates you?
19:19:49 <pikhq_> Alt rock ≠ metal, you jerk. :P
19:20:04 <elliott> pikhq_: And Nirvana =/=/==/=/=/ alt rock!
19:20:31 <tswett> optbot: say something coincidentally relevant to the situation, so I can feel awesome!
19:20:31 <optbot> tswett: Seems to work.
19:20:41 <elliott> It works to make you feel awesome.
19:20:48 <elliott> Anyway, it's not coincidence, it's strong AI.
19:21:08 <pikhq_> elliott: You crazy Brits.
19:21:11 <tswett> I think a quote from the movie Rango is appropriate here.
19:21:15 <tswett> "Damn." --Rattlesnake Jake, "Rango"
19:21:35 <elliott> I think a quote from the movie [insert movie here] is appropriate here.
19:21:43 <elliott> "Yes." --[character], "[movie]"
19:21:59 <tswett> Hey, that's also a Rango quote.
19:22:09 <tswett> "Yes." --Rango, "Rango"
19:22:27 <tswett> I think Rango also said that.
19:22:41 <tswett> Though he might have said "them" instead.
19:22:48 <elliott> Maybe he didn't and you just didn't notice.
19:22:51 <elliott> (As part of a line, of course.)
19:22:53 <tswett> Oh, he did say "the" in some other instance.
19:23:04 <elliott> tswett: MAYBE HE NEVER USED THE WORD "E" THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE MOVIE
19:23:13 <tswett> He said, "I'm the law." Or maybe, "I am the law."
19:23:35 <Gregor> "I [...] love [...] s [...] e [...] x [...] with [...] men." -- Rango, "Rango"
19:23:53 <tswett> I don't know if he said "love" or any word containing "x".
19:24:07 <tswett> He probably said "with", but I don't know about "men".
19:24:18 <pikhq_> "[...] lay with men as you would lay with woman [...]" — God.
19:24:19 <Gregor> Note: I haven't watched the movie, and don't intend to :P
19:25:02 <elliott> "Stone [...] women." --God
19:25:21 <tswett> Oh, he definitely said "with". The phrase "with just one bullet" was said many times by multiple characters.
19:25:38 <pikhq_> elliott: I'm pretty sure you can just go with "Stone women [...]".
19:25:51 <elliott> "[...]get [...] stone[...]d." --God
19:26:02 <pikhq_> As you are suppose to stone women who exhibit infidelity.
19:26:18 <elliott> Yah, but is it in that order i nthe Bible :P
19:26:29 <pikhq_> In at least one translation.
19:26:44 <tswett> In the Bible, it's more like "[...] nmw ntS".
19:26:52 <tswett> Except the words are Hebrew.
19:27:07 <elliott> tswett: What did this channel ever do without your stunning intellect? :-P
19:27:10 <pikhq_> tswett: Thy win is evident.
19:27:23 <tswett> elliott: you'd probably all be dead.
19:27:25 <elliott> Note: "nmw ntS" is a common Welsh idiom.
19:27:36 <tswett> Actually, no. You'd probably all be alive if it weren't for me.
19:27:46 <elliott> tswett: Darn, I hate being dead.
19:27:48 <tswett> Don't be ridiculous. "ntS" doesn't have any vowels.
19:28:01 <elliott> Um, the joke is that Welsh has no vowels :P
19:28:07 <elliott> I expect you realise this.
19:28:18 <pikhq_> Sadly, it actually does.
19:28:23 <pikhq_> Vowels such as "w" and "y".
19:28:33 <tswett> My joke is that I'm recognizing your joke and choosing to ignore it.
19:28:53 <tswett> You can tell that I got the joke by the fact that I picked "ntS", which indeed has no vowels, rather than "nmw", which does have a vowel. :P
19:29:53 <oerjan> <elliott> Note: "nmw ntS" is a common Welsh idiom. <-- WHY ISN'T NDRYLLIOG HERE TO CONFIRM...
19:30:00 <tswett> You cannot effectively stone me! I am this big!
19:30:08 * tswett holds up his hands, a certain distance apart.
19:30:10 <elliott> tswett: We have SO MUCH CANNABIS.
19:30:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Smelly. Unwashed.
19:30:30 <oerjan> tswett: by that do you mean you're too small for us to hit you, or to big for the stones to have any effect?
19:30:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yeah, but they hate the English too so I need to like them to count as Scottish.
19:30:53 * oerjan casually picks up a nearby mountain.
19:30:56 <pikhq_> At least the Normans had the common decency to *invade*, rather than just be wine-drinking artfags mocking us! :P
19:31:19 <tswett> oerjan: just a casual question: where are you, relative to the mountain, as you're holding it?
19:31:24 <elliott> pikhq_: Please refrain from usage of "us", Americunt.
19:31:35 <pikhq_> elliott: I'm of British descent, now shaddup.
19:31:41 <elliott> pikhq_: SO'S EVERY FUCKING AMERICAN X-D
19:31:53 <elliott> GREGOR is of British descent.
19:31:55 <pikhq_> elliott: German is the most common ancestry.
19:31:58 <elliott> Yet shows no signs of ``humour''.
19:32:11 <elliott> (He unfortunately shows irritating symptoms of ``humor'' on a regular basis.)
19:32:15 <tswett> I have no idea what sort of descent I'm of. It must be mostly European, since I seem to be white.
19:32:40 <pikhq_> tswett: Definitely South African.
19:32:46 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> (Bloody French, never came through for us.) <-- i vaguely recall reading recently they _did_ try to help some scottish faction against the english at one time...
19:32:53 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: England.
19:32:54 <tswett> There are white Africans out there, but, you know. A black swan in the hand does not imply causation.
19:33:05 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, there's something called the "Auld Alliance" but I never actually found out what it entailed.
19:33:09 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Worcestershire, to be specific.
19:33:35 <elliott> `addquote <tswett> There are white Africans out there, but, you know. A black swan in the hand does not imply causation.
19:33:38 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Worcester, to be even more specific.
19:33:40 <HackEgo> 335) <tswett> There are white Africans out there, but, you know. A black swan in the hand does not imply causation.
19:33:42 <elliott> What is it with crazy people and being quotable.
19:33:55 <tswett> pikhq_: your ancestors are from Worcester? That would explain a lot.
19:34:02 <oerjan> <tswett> oerjan: just a casual question: where are you, relative to the mountain, as you're holding it? <-- as i'm using the famed munchhausen method, i am above it.
19:34:08 <Phantom_Hoover> But there were all kinds of weird olde-European alliancy things, like Queen Mary marrying the dauphin.
19:34:09 <pikhq_> tswett: Yes, hence the last name of "Worcester".
19:34:32 * tswett climbs on top of the mountain and shoots oerjan.
19:35:00 <elliott> Gregor: -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 0 2011-01-13 23:45 11.02.29
19:35:05 <tswett> Gee, I sure hope there are no hawks up here. That would make me really regret this piece of gratuitous exposition.
19:36:14 <oerjan> <elliott> What is it with crazy people and being quotable. <-- now is _that_ correlation or causation?
19:37:27 <tswett> oerjan: yes, hawks. They're the only thing mentioned in the movie that I'm afraid of.
19:37:53 <elliott> oerjan: hmm for arrow purposes (a,b) behaves like (\x -> if x then b else a), right?
19:37:55 <tswett> Why did they mention my fears in that movie? I'm not a movie character.
19:38:06 <elliott> can't have polymorphic return.
19:38:13 <elliott> Bool -> Either a b, then. except that's not right either.
19:38:28 <elliott> (a,b) acts like how you do tuples in LC, then :-P
19:38:28 <oerjan> tswett: in fact you were lucky, when you shot me i briefly lost my grip and the mountain fell and crushed some hawks.
19:38:36 <oerjan> also a small city, but never mind.
19:39:22 <elliott> oerjan: (a,b) acts like (\x. x a b) in the LC for Arrow instance purposes, right?
19:39:47 <elliott> tswett: http://goo.gl/IYgRQ
19:40:10 * tswett shoots at his computer screen.
19:40:33 <oerjan> elliott: oh you want a (,) instance? i don't think you can do that as both type arguments are covariant...
19:40:47 <elliott> oerjan: err ((,) t) is an arrow.
19:40:52 <lambdabot> forall (a :: * -> * -> *) b c b' c'. (Arrow a) => a b c -> a b' c' -> a (b, b') (c, c')
19:41:00 <lambdabot> forall (a :: * -> * -> *) b c c'. (Arrow a) => a b c -> a b c' -> a b (c, c')
19:41:02 <oerjan> elliott: arrows take _two_ type arguments
19:41:10 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `t1 -> t2 -> t'
19:41:29 <oerjan> elliott: how in the world would you implement arr
19:41:31 <elliott> well, right, you can't do arr and pure :D
19:41:39 <elliott> oerjan: i just kinda assumed ;(
19:41:49 <elliott> because of all the *** and &&&s involving tuples :D
19:41:52 <oerjan> elliott: it's essentially a monad, Writer
19:42:12 <elliott> oerjan: arr f = (x, f x) where x = undefined
19:42:15 <pikhq_> We need to convince Kevin Bacon to do a movie with a bunch of mathematicians as extras.
19:42:26 * pikhq_ wants someone to have an Erdős-Bacon number of 2!
19:42:30 <elliott> pikhq_: A film about Paul Erd\Hos, too.
19:42:38 <elliott> JOIN THIS FILM, INCREASE YOUR NUMBERS
19:42:50 <oerjan> elliott: the tuples are in _addition_ to the arrow type. also i'm pretty sure you're supposed to have arr id >>> x = x and such things
19:42:53 <elliott> * pikhq_ wants someone to have an Erdős-Bacon number of 2!
19:43:18 <elliott> oerjan: WELL OK MR SMARTY FANCY PANTS
19:43:18 <pikhq_> elliott: Actually, because of *just that* happening, Erdős has an Erdős-Bacon number of 3.
19:43:30 <elliott> pikhq_: I'm trying to COMBINE the concepts.
19:43:45 <elliott> omg, Er\Hdos and Bacon can have an Er\Hdos-Bacon number of 1.
19:43:47 <pikhq_> If only Kevin Bacon were in it.
19:43:55 <elliott> just make a KEvin Bacon film with stock footage of Erd\Hos.
19:44:04 <tswett> Is it Er\Hdos or Erd\Hos?
19:44:16 <oerjan> <tswett> Why did they mention my fears in that movie? I'm not a movie character. <-- synchronicity, duh
19:44:23 <pikhq_> Actually, can't get Kevin Bacon to have a Bacon number of 1; Erdős is dead.
19:44:37 <tswett> Is it Erdös or Erdõs? :P
19:45:00 <elliott> pikhq_: Anyway, appearing in a film with stock footage of Erd\Hos has been counted for your Erd\Hos number.
19:45:03 <pikhq_> tswett: It's Erdős, not Erdös. Erdős was Hungarian.
19:45:07 <elliott> So Bacon could easily get an Erd\Hos number of 1.
19:45:13 <elliott> And Erd\Hos a Bacon number of 1.
19:45:18 <elliott> Giving them both an Erd\Hos-Bacon number of 1.
19:46:15 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but the Erd\Hos number is for papers, not films.
19:46:36 <elliott> Playing ping-pong with him should count!
19:46:44 <elliott> Or maybe only if you're doing it doubles, and he's on your side.
19:46:49 <oerjan> <elliott> omg, Er\Hdos and Bacon can have an Er\Hdos-Bacon number of 1. <-- i think you're missing the "joint paper" part...
19:47:05 <elliott> oerjan: the "films count" was used by someone fairly prominent or at least interesting. iirc.
19:47:59 <oerjan> elliott: someone desperate to get low erdős-bacon numbers, obviously
19:48:01 <elliott> "It seems that older historic figures such as Leonhard Euler (born 1707) do not have finite Erdős numbers." --Wikipedia
19:48:04 <elliott> augur: HOW FUNNY I MADE THAT JOKE TOO
19:48:11 <elliott> oerjan: it wasn't very low even counting that :D
19:48:21 <elliott> oerjan: it was tongue in cheek, but then so are Erd\Hos numbers.
19:48:22 <augur> elliott: yes that may be
19:48:35 <augur> elliott: but you werent suggesting he actually cum on your face or other body parts
19:48:45 <elliott> augur: i said women though, so probably you automatically ignored the line
19:48:54 <oerjan> <pikhq_> tswett: It's Erdős, not Erdös. Erdős was Hungarian. <-- mind you hungarian does have ö as well, long vs. short vowel.
19:49:50 <pikhq_> Still, it explains ő being valid.
19:50:14 <elliott> 19:43:32 <thematrixeatsyou> one thing that you wouldn't know: i have made two esoteric programming languages and i'm actually 15.
19:50:20 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:50:33 <oerjan> basically hungarian puts ´ on any vowel to make it long, if there are dots already they get replaced with ´'s.
20:00:48 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:00:48 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
20:00:48 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:02:00 <ais523> !bfjoust slowpoke http://sprunge.us/hcQD
20:03:14 <elliott> somehow I've got myself into a veritable OS dev rut.
20:03:25 <elliott> (anywhere I can't printf debug counts as a rut)
20:03:26 <cheater00> i heard the ipad2 waiting line is real tough today
20:03:52 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
20:04:27 <ais523> oerjan: Hungarian also seems to use the letter y as an accent (after the letter, rather than on top of it which would be bizarre)
20:04:31 <elliott> you made egobot go the slow!
20:04:37 <ais523> it hasn't even started processing slowpoke yet
20:04:45 <ais523> also, slowpoke, despite its name, runs pretty quickly
20:04:47 <elliott> okind of like e or u on top of the letter instead of diaeresis
20:04:48 <ais523> much faster than waterfall3
20:04:52 <oerjan> ais523: that's for consonants, it uses lots of combined letters
20:05:07 <ais523> oerjan: ly, gy, ny, sz
20:05:10 <oerjan> gy and ty, but also sz, cs ...
20:05:28 <ais523> I don't remember seeing any of those when I actually went to Hungary
20:05:47 <oerjan> hm maybe i'm misremembering
20:05:49 <elliott> THE KEY TO BECOMING AN EXPERT
20:06:11 <elliott> "The difference between <PERMABLINK> and <BLINK> is that there is no </PERMABLINK>.
20:06:11 <elliott> Using <PERMABLINK> causes all Web sites people see after yours to blink. Forever."
20:07:06 <oerjan> confusingly sz is what most other countries would consider s, while s is similar to english sh.
20:07:25 <ais523> elliott: is that a zzo38 quote?
20:07:32 <oerjan> (remember that when pronouncing erdős)
20:07:36 <elliott> ais523: err, no, that would be a terrible zzo38 quote
20:07:46 <ais523> for English loanwords, they actually transliterate s into sz
20:07:52 <ais523> so you see shops marked "szupermarket"
20:09:04 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:09:21 -!- EgoBot has joined.
20:09:24 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:09:43 <ais523> it was halfway through running my relatively simple program, too
20:09:48 <ais523> !bfjoust slowpoke http://sprunge.us/hcQD
20:09:49 <cheater00> ais523: yeah, it's funny to hear people try to pronounce Riesz theorem
20:09:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
20:09:51 <elliott> CHAINLANCE: EXCELLENT NON-BUGGY WIN
20:10:01 <elliott> it crashed EgoBot, i can be as sarcastic as i like now
20:11:08 <ais523> elliott: is its debug output as pretty as juiced?
20:11:13 <oerjan> <elliott> it's ``humour'' <-- zzo38 sometimes says things which one might detect as humor. not necessarily what most people would consider humor, but humor nonetheless. and i think i've chuckled at some time.
20:11:22 <elliott> ais523: the most prettiest. well it could be.
20:11:27 <elliott> oerjan: yes but it's unintentional :)
20:11:32 <Gregor> <elliott> Gregor: -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 0 2011-01-13 23:45 11.02.29 <elliott> Gregor: hg fail // hg fail how?
20:11:37 <elliott> and wouldn't be punctuated in such a way as to draw attention to the humour
20:11:38 <ais523> also, I don't see why we don't post all these BF Joust interps rather than posting them somewhere
20:11:47 <elliott> it created an empty 11.02.29 file
20:11:49 <Gregor> elliott: That's more like it :P
20:11:50 <oerjan> elliott: no i mean he says things that are obviously _meant_ to be humor.
20:11:55 <elliott> ais523: <ais523> also, I don't see why we don't post all these BF Joust interps rather than posting them somewhere
20:12:05 <ais523> umm, rather than keeping them secret
20:12:09 <oerjan> it's rare, but i'm sure i've seen it.
20:12:14 <elliott> oerjan: I have a strong feeling those are just bit-for-bit copies, or at least minor mutations
20:12:20 <ais523> people who want to try to run BF Joust programs locally atm have no option but to write their own interp
20:12:33 <elliott> ais523: err, chainlance is open source
20:12:37 <elliott> i dunno if it has an actual license
20:12:47 <ais523> I mean, I don't have a copy, nor any links to it
20:12:55 <elliott> ais523: that's your problem?
20:13:11 <elliott> http://git.zem.fi/chainlance -- but it's so buggy, why would you :)
20:13:37 <elliott> Perhaps I'll write a LANCELANCE, that compiles them to ANSI PORTABLE C.
20:13:52 <ais523> elliott: that's an HTML page
20:13:58 <oerjan> <cheater00> ais523: yeah, it's funny to hear people try to pronounce Riesz theorem <-- the trap here is you need to know whether the name is hungarian or polish, because polish uses s/sz in the exact opposite way
20:14:00 <ais523> I just tried to wget it...
20:14:22 * oerjan didn't actually know riesz was hungarian
20:14:26 <elliott> ais523: I'm not your personal web browser; you get to find the appropriate download link yourself.
20:14:40 <ais523> it's just that the link was misleading
20:14:49 <elliott> gitweb is hardly uncommon.
20:14:56 <elliott> In this case it seems that there's no convenient tarball link.
20:15:01 <elliott> I suspect git://git.zem.fi/chainlance may be right.
20:15:22 <elliott> But having a checkout of the git repository is more useful, as you can get new bugs fizzie introduces more conveniently.
20:15:23 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_slowpoke: 78.0
20:15:23 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_slowpoke: 78.0
20:15:47 <ais523> 22 | + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + | 78.0 | 36.4 | 22 | ais523_slowpoke.bfjoust
20:15:50 <ais523> wow that's a good score
20:15:51 <elliott> Gregor: YOU'RE NOT AT THE TOP, BAN AIS523
20:15:52 <Deewiant> Heh, it does better against allegro than any of my others
20:16:12 <elliott> !bfjoust elliott__ais523_waterfall3_1 <
20:16:16 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_elliott__ais523_waterfall3_1: 0.0
20:16:19 <Deewiant> ais523: Well, waterfall3 had the same wins, just less score :-P
20:16:23 <elliott> TIME TO WRITE ANTISLOWPOKE
20:16:29 <elliott> It'll get like 60 points just from beating it.
20:16:52 <ais523> 78 is still rather insane, given that allegro has 55
20:17:05 <ais523> btw, FFSPG /almost/ beats it
20:17:10 <elliott> ais523: prepare for death by egojsout!!!!!
20:17:12 <ais523> it generally loses by around 20 clock cycles
20:18:08 <elliott> Gregor: [>] is bugged in egojsout
20:18:45 <ais523> elliott: I doubt it, triplock3 uses and runs correctly there
20:18:57 <ais523> and waterfall3 embeds many copies of triplock3, and runs them sometimes
20:19:18 <elliott> hmm, how can one generate [>], >[>], >>[>], etc. with ()%?
20:19:23 <Gregor> It figures my computer would go bonkers right after I tpyo 78 as 89 X_X
20:19:26 <elliott> hmm, actually that's wrong
20:19:28 <ais523> you can't, I don't think
20:20:15 * oerjan is wondering if the ie in riesz should actually be pronounced as two vowels or not
20:20:38 <oerjan> it could be germanized, so just one
20:21:34 <oerjan> "He had an uncommon method of giving lectures: he entered the lecture hall with an assistant and a docent. The docent then began reading the proper passages from Riesz's handbook and the assistant inscribed the appropriate equations on the blackboard—while Riesz himself stood aside, nodding occasionally."
20:21:39 <cheater00> oerjan: Riesz is not a polish name tho :p
20:22:04 <cheater00> does this show up unstyled for y'all? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riesz-Fischer_theorem
20:22:11 <oerjan> cheater00: yeah it looks like it could be either german or hungarian to me
20:22:43 <oerjan> cheater00: looks fine to me
20:23:04 <oerjan> cheater00: i think sz is archaic german spelling, so might still hang on in names?
20:23:32 <cheater00> if it's in a name then it's a foreign name.
20:23:44 <cheater00> germans are very strict about their spelling
20:23:52 <cheater00> even names get strict spelling updates
20:25:16 <elliott> ais523: can you get [-[--[---[---[---?
20:26:01 <elliott> ais523: gah, antislowpoke is hard; anti space_elevator was easy :)
20:26:12 <oerjan> cheater00: i said it was just fine. i think styles are separate files so might fail to load separately, try reloading.
20:26:37 <oerjan> has happened to me before
20:26:38 <cheater00> sorry, i thought you said Riesz looks fine to you
20:26:55 <cheater00> yeah the wird thing is that the style for all other pages in wikipedia works
20:27:00 <oerjan> cheater00: well that is also true
20:27:25 <oerjan> cheater00: shift-reload?
20:28:50 <elliott> ais523: well i can draw with slowpoke some of the time :D
20:29:06 <elliott> < < < < < = = = = = < = = = = < = = = = =
20:29:06 <elliott> < < < < < > > > < < < < < < < < < < < < <
20:29:13 <oerjan> <elliott> hmm, how can one generate [>], >[>], >>[>], etc. with ()%? <-- all uses of ()% expand to ()*...()* if you ignore [] matching
20:29:36 <elliott> i meant with nesting and stuff
20:29:43 <fizzie> "<elliott> unfortunately it sucks" "<elliott> http://git.zem.fi/chainlance -- but it's so buggy [..]" "<elliott> [...] you can get new bugs fizzie introduces more conveniently." ← are you trying to participate in some sort of "bitterest man on earth" competition here?
20:30:20 <elliott> fizzie: You crashed EgoBot, you deserve it :-)
20:31:10 <oerjan> <cheater00> germans are very strict about their spelling <-- ok germans, but hungarians etc. might still use archaic spellings for names that are originally german. on the other hand as ais523 said hungarians do replace s by sz in loanwords so it might be that too.
20:31:44 <elliott> wonder if I can ignore only _quotes_... although replies would be good too and i already wrote that :)
20:31:48 -!- cpressey has joined.
20:31:55 <cheater00> but then germans replace S with Z in their pronounciation
20:32:13 <oerjan> <elliott> i meant with nesting and stuff <-- i meant i don't see how to do it with plain ()* either.
20:32:24 <cpressey> i'm surrounded by... jythonistas.
20:32:35 <cpressey> or, at least, people attending a talk about jython
20:32:36 <elliott> oerjan: it needs to be like... ((>)*n[>])*(n=100) :-D
20:32:48 <cpressey> there seems to be less -ista here
20:33:03 <elliott> cpressey: those are javadroids :D
20:33:40 <oerjan> <cheater00> o no, shift worked <-- i believe shift causes it to ignore already cached content in case there's something wrong with it, while without shift doesn't if the page's modified date hasn't changed.
20:33:45 <cpressey> the intersection between the two sets seems rather small
20:35:20 <cpressey> there is like no one here. i was going to attend "extreme network programming in python" but it was really crowded and i forgot that i don't really care about low-level network protocols
20:36:38 <oerjan> and i'm not entirely sure, but without shift might also be less clever about following included content. (this is all just my impression.)
20:38:17 <ais523> <elliott> ais523: well i can draw with slowpoke some of the time :D <-- haha
20:38:27 <elliott> ais523: btw, optbot is back
20:38:27 <optbot> elliott: i'll try think more about it now
20:38:49 * oerjan thinks that was a zzo38 comment
20:39:46 <elliott> oklopol seems plausible, but it could also be any non-native speaker
20:39:57 <elliott> 05.06.07:14:09:02 <Keymaker> i'll try think more about it now
20:40:04 <cpressey> oklopol often seems quite implausible to me
20:40:22 <oerjan> cpressey: HE DOESN'T REALLY EXIST
20:40:29 <oerjan> it's all a bug in reality
20:40:32 <ais523> oh, how come I didn't notice cpressey was here earlier despite him having made lots of comments already?
20:40:48 <elliott> cpressey: do an impromptu talk on esolangs; start it with announcing that you are "THE... yes, THE ... Chris Pressey".
20:40:51 <cpressey> PlauseError: HE DOESN'T REALLY EXIST
20:40:53 <elliott> ais523: he's at PyCon, dying
20:41:14 <elliott> cpressey: when nobody applauses, throw something angrily and stomp off
20:41:35 <elliott> cpressey: come on, that's the best idea ever.
20:41:55 <cpressey> no, not being here is the best idea ever
20:42:01 <oerjan> elliott: an applausible idea
20:42:04 <elliott> cpressey: second-best, then.
20:42:30 <oerjan> cpressey: but it's the perfect setup for not being there afterward
20:42:40 <cpressey> i could post a card on the board for an "Esolang BoF" and watch no one else show up
20:43:39 <Gregor> Bestiality-only Family
20:43:40 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birds_of_a_Feather_(computing) lame
20:44:25 <Gregor> Gonna stick with Bestiality-only Family
20:44:37 <oerjan> hm is feather slightly named after twoducks?
20:45:15 <elliott> cpressey: ok, here's a less coherent idea: yell "ATTENTION EVERYBODY, THIS IS NOW AN UNCONFERENCE! That means you have to dance!", and start dancing
20:45:18 <elliott> punch everyone who does not dance
20:45:31 <elliott> now to increase my toxication levels to get something even better
20:46:04 <elliott> yeah ais523 better admire my amazing lingotalk.
20:46:06 <ais523> altohugh it might as well be
20:46:52 <oerjan> there's this fairy tale about the feather that turned into five hens
20:47:04 <elliott> 17:01:19 <GregorR> If you solve the game and make it so that the AI literally cannot lose, it's different. If you win, you suck, if you lose, you're brilliant.
20:47:04 <elliott> or if you win, you're *really* brilliant
20:48:09 <oerjan> http://hca.gilead.org.il/no_doubt.html
20:48:56 <elliott> oerjan: how big is your personal library?
20:49:29 <oerjan> elliott: it contains google
20:49:41 <elliott> oerjan: THE BIGGEST LIBRARY
20:50:01 <oerjan> although i probably have the andersen fairy tales stored away somewhere physically too
20:50:03 <elliott> I wonder if there are more pages on Google than there are pages on the internet (discounting infinite page generators, other search engines)
20:50:10 <elliott> and not counting 0-result googles
20:50:21 <elliott> but counting every string that return something
20:50:28 <elliott> (and _not_ assuming that google has crawled every single page)
20:51:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well right, because you have at least the number of words in the page that return that page
20:51:18 <elliott> so it blows up quite quickly :)
20:51:29 <cpressey> also, google indexes its own results pages
20:51:33 <elliott> The Googles: bigger than the internets.
20:51:37 <elliott> cpressey: well, not counting that. but does it really?
20:52:01 <elliott> "Error 404 (Not Found)!!1" --title of Google's (new) 404 page
20:52:20 <Gregor> slowpoke's behavior looks stunningly similar to FFSPG :P
20:52:40 <elliott> as ais523 said, FFSPG almost wins
20:52:53 <elliott> loses by about 20 cycles IIRC
20:52:53 <cpressey> elliott: no. i am lying freely
20:52:57 <Gregor> Yeah, FFSPG is really close.
20:53:09 <elliott> Gregor: Fix it, even if it makes it slightly worse on other programs, you'll get a shitload of points for it :P
20:53:13 <oerjan> elliott: NEEDS MOAR ELEVEN
20:53:32 <elliott> Gregor: Although not in the fixed-point system I think.
20:53:33 <ais523> I could make it win by a lot rather than a little at the cost of performance against some other programs
20:53:47 <ais523> I didn't actually notice how close it was until after the program was already finished
20:57:09 <ais523> Gregor: slowpoke was just designed around "let me make a deep-poke program", but it turned out quite similar
20:57:24 <ais523> however, its decoy setup is rather different from FFSPG, it's a fundamentally different strategy there
20:57:27 <ais523> and its attack is different too
20:57:37 <elliott> Furry furry deep poking girls.
20:57:41 <elliott> Or is that where the SP name comes from.
20:58:29 <elliott> was the original poke deep?
20:58:51 <ais523> it stops as soon as it sees a nonzero cell
20:59:04 <ais523> whereas FFSPG and slowpoke look for other values near zero too
20:59:05 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
20:59:19 <ais523> the idea of poke was to find the opponent's first decoy and set up nine squares from it
20:59:26 <ais523> so as to be able to make more decoys, and attack sooner
20:59:47 <ais523> slowpoke uses the poke to know where to start attacking, but it has different secondary purposes
21:00:00 <ais523> for one, it tries to trip enemy tripwires
21:00:12 <ais523> causing them to screw up their synchronization by starting too early
21:00:24 <elliott> Deewiant: Quick, make [insert type of train here].
21:00:26 <ais523> and causing programs to think slowpoke is fast-rush and use an inappropriate response to it
21:00:48 <elliott> Or use allegro as a transition to music names :P
21:01:59 <ais523> <bhaak> wow, sometimes you wonder how many people respobsible for POSIX get shot by disgruntled programmers <Xjs> 362'881 <Xjs> why are you asking?
21:02:18 <ais523> ^ this explains why POSIX sucks, it was designed by a /very large/ committee
21:02:35 <elliott> rest in peace POSIX committee members.
21:03:09 <elliott> ais523: it was mostly defined by the ridonkulously huge committee of "every unix system vendor and hackers thereof"
21:03:24 <Deewiant> !bfjoust train (>)*8(>[-][-])*21
21:03:30 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_train: 16.6
21:03:44 <elliott> Deewiant: Does it beat slowpoke?
21:03:54 * Sgeo wonders what a war between the Integrated Data Sentient Entity and an aware Haruhi would be like.
21:04:01 <Sgeo> Of course, that would destroy the premise
21:04:17 * Phantom_Hoover wonders how much thought has been put into clockwork computing.
21:04:17 <ais523> slowpoke can't beat fast rush programs on tapes shorter than 14 or so, unless it's lucky
21:04:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Not enough.
21:04:32 <cpressey> i guess this one's next --> http://us.pycon.org/2011/schedule/presentations/137/
21:04:42 <cpressey> i'll let you know if it's actually interesting :)
21:04:45 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
21:04:58 <ais523> wasn't the Analytical Engine clockwork?
21:05:18 <Phantom_Hoover> My children, let us consider the theological implications of Guido van Rossum.
21:05:36 <Sgeo> I've seen ++variable as a useful trick
21:05:43 <ais523> elliott: did you notice that I slightly tweaked waterfall3 to beat your copy of it, btw?
21:06:05 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:06:08 <ais523> you gave the wrong name
21:06:16 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:06:16 <Deewiant> elliott: You didn't specify that, you just wanted a train.
21:06:22 <elliott> Deewiant: I specify it now.
21:06:23 <ais523> 30 | + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + - + + + + + + - + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + | 53.4 | 24.6 | 30 | elliott__ais523_waterfall3_1.bfjoust
21:06:24 <ais523> 31 | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - | 0.0 | -47.0 | 31 | elliott_elliott__ais523_waterfall3_1.bfjoust
21:06:32 <elliott> !bfjoust _ais523_waterfall3_1 <
21:06:43 <elliott> lesson: don't ever have a nick X_Y if someone has the nick X.
21:06:46 <EgoBot> Score for elliott__ais523_waterfall3_1: 0.0
21:06:47 <Deewiant> Where's the interpreter that's currently used on the hill
21:06:56 <elliott> Deewiant: http://git.zem.fi/home-of-bugs/
21:07:02 <elliott> (Or "chainlance", you decide.)
21:07:27 <ais523> anyway, I can't think of any way to tweak waterfall3 to beat slowpoke
21:07:55 <elliott> ais523: If I figure out how to do an antislowpoke, maybe it'll revive the hill strategy set a bit :)
21:07:55 <ais523> other than detecting it (not too hard) and switching to a strategy designed specifically to beat it
21:08:02 <elliott> interior_crocodile_alligator was surprisingly interesting.
21:08:17 <ais523> elliott: it was, it actually inspired me to invent the triplock
21:08:25 <ais523> well, I didn't invent it, Gregor did
21:08:28 <elliott> mostly it's because anti- programs don't really do anything logical
21:08:30 <ais523> but it inspired me to remember it existed
21:08:34 <elliott> which tends to confuse anything that does any thinking
21:08:57 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck&curid=1138&diff=21473&oldid=21035 SOME KINDLY RUSSIAN PLEASE RESPOND
21:09:00 <ais523> well, I think timing-based defence (defend9, etc) is more or less dead nowadays
21:09:46 <Deewiant> elliott: {chain,crank,gear}lance?
21:10:18 <elliott> Deewiant: It's the one that doesn't do any statistics output.
21:10:43 <ais523> elliott: what does defend8mwahahaha or whatever it's called do?
21:10:44 <elliott> "Carmack: Direct3D is now better than OpenGL" What joy.
21:10:54 <ais523> I tended to defeat it by accident too much, and never really looked into it
21:10:59 <elliott> ais523: I have nooooooo idea
21:11:08 <elliott> ais523: I probably just tweaked it randomly
21:11:12 <elliott> scores were nondeterministic back then
21:11:15 <ais523> (note: slowpoke wasn't tweaked to defeat anything particular, apart from one of the trains, and that was just a bugfix)
21:11:33 <ais523> (although I think I continued by tweaking it to beat one of the programs it was already beating more convincingly)
21:11:42 <elliott> does anyone here know nasm?
21:12:42 -!- cpressey has joined.
21:14:34 <elliott> Deewiant: Is nasm part of the everything you're an expert in?
21:14:40 <elliott> (Yes, I looked at the manual. :p)
21:15:48 <elliott> Oh, how thoroughly *weird*.
21:15:58 <elliott> '\' is how you do a backslash.
21:16:04 <elliott> '\\' is interpreted as a string, and packed into a word.
21:16:10 <elliott> fizzie: plz2be fix nasm mode to handle '\' :P
21:18:11 <Deewiant> !bfjoust antislowpoke (>)*8(>++[-])*21
21:18:13 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_antislowpoke: 13.1
21:18:57 <elliott> Deewiant: Does it work? :P
21:19:22 <Deewiant> Not always, but more often than not
21:24:09 <cpressey> and is in fact introducing it.
21:24:57 <cpressey> (he's getting to implementing it entirely using decorators)
21:28:43 <elliott> cpressey: Ask for Funge-98.
21:29:10 <elliott> also, a reverend saying fuck?! *gasp*
21:29:33 <cpressey> he didn't say its name, and his slide said "BRAINF*CK"
21:30:46 <pikhq> Expertise in fasm should carry over to nasm.
21:31:26 <pikhq> What with it being an masm-esque assembler.
21:32:32 <ais523> elliott: how do you do a single single quote? '''?
21:33:19 <Deewiant> Why not, '' is invalid, after all
21:33:27 <elliott> Deewiant: not necessarily true
21:33:45 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:33:46 <Deewiant> '' would just mean 0 and thus isn't very necessary
21:43:36 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:47:01 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
21:47:16 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:48:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, http://www.gamepro.com/article/news/218476/top-story-katamari-hack-will-destroy-your-productivity/
21:49:34 <elliott> It has multiplayer, the one thing Gregor was too stupid to do!
21:49:35 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: ... damn, hard to compete with that.
21:50:04 <elliott> SO IMPOSSIBLE TO DO WITH A LAPTOP
21:50:09 -!- cpressey has joined.
21:59:56 <cpressey> LOTS OF CAPS IN THIS CHANNEL LATELY
21:59:57 <fizzie> elliott, ais523, Deewiant: nasm does escape characters (with a quite traditional set of escapes) when you put the string in backquotes; so `\\` would do a backslash too. And I think the official way how you do a single quote is "'". (".." and '..' are completely equivalent, except you can put 's inside ""s and vice versa; and `..` works otherwise the same except enables those escapes.)
22:00:19 <elliott> fizzie: But nasm-mode fails at '\'! :p
22:00:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: havenworks is gone
22:00:58 <Gregor> I didn't make a mirror of havenworks :P
22:01:27 <elliott> ooh, can't wait for december
22:01:46 <Gregor> I did? Then I guess I did :P
22:01:51 <Gregor> I just don't remember :P
22:03:15 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, egostats hasn't updated like you said you were going to
22:03:43 <elliott> he didn't say would just could iirc
22:03:58 <ais523> I thought he said he was going to add slowpoke to it while EgoBot was down
22:04:03 <ais523> in order to get in first, or something
22:04:06 <ais523> not that it massively matters
22:04:30 <fizzie> ais523: I think I said "perhaps I should", or some such matters.
22:04:42 <fizzie> Since it's now officially in, I think I'll just hg pull.
22:06:26 <fizzie> It takes awfully long to draw those per-program plots; I was thinking of just exporting the data as json and doing most of the graphics client-side, at least for per-program (or maybe even per-match, though I guess egojsout is a better platform for that) visualizations.
22:06:44 <Deewiant> !bfjoust antislowpoke (>)*8(>++[-]---)*21
22:07:24 <ais523> Deewiant: heh, that probably does work
22:07:36 <Deewiant> There's already a working one up
22:07:56 <elliott> does it beat it in all configurations?
22:08:13 <Deewiant> !bfjoust NOTAREALantislowpoke (>)*8(>++[-]---)*21
22:08:26 <Deewiant> <<<<<<>><<<<<<<<<<><< <<<<<<<><<<<<<<<<<X<< 33
22:08:54 <elliott> ais523: get on writing a program to make an anti- automatically
22:09:11 <ais523> but if I did, I'd do it to anti the whole hill and get a perfect score
22:09:23 <elliott> ais523: null program draws with slowpoke
22:09:26 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, how often are you told that you need to vote in response to political whinging?
22:09:57 <ais523> strangely, I tried to run allegro vs slowpoke in egojsout
22:10:03 <ais523> and allegro just sat there doing nothing, not even setting decoys
22:10:08 <ais523> I assume it was some sort of egojsout glitch
22:10:19 <ais523> race condition in parsing, perhaps
22:10:37 <ais523> it was being very weird for me earlier
22:11:48 <Deewiant> Well anyway, the current one does <<<<<<>><>><<<<>><<<< <<<<<<<><<X<>X<<X<>X< 20
22:11:55 <elliott> So what's a good clear loop these days? :P
22:12:10 <ais523> you can steal the one from slowpoke if you like
22:12:19 <elliott> ais523: to use in antislowpoke? brilliant
22:12:21 <ais523> although I think it can actually be marginally improved to do better versus shudder
22:12:35 <elliott> what is it? I haven't read slowpoke
22:12:42 <Deewiant> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ais523_slowpoke.bfjoust
22:12:42 <elliott> I do antis purely on traces
22:12:47 <elliott> Deewiant: that doesn't show me the clear loop
22:13:06 <ais523> ((+)*9[-[-([-[-{[...+[...+]]>}]][+--[+--]]>(+)*9)%1000]]>)*21 is the clear loop
22:13:12 -!- iconmaster has joined.
22:13:16 <ais523> hmm, it'd be interesting to see how that does on its own
22:13:53 <ais523> anyway, if you want to beat slowpoke, specialcase the tape values +/- 2, 30, 32, 98
22:13:55 <elliott> !bfjoust (>)*8(>(+)*9[-[-([-[-{[...+[...+]]>}]][+--[+--]]>(+)*9)%1000]]>)*22
22:13:58 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
22:14:06 <elliott> !bfjoust camber (>)*8(>(+)*9[-[-([-[-{[...+[...+]]>}]][+--[+--]]>(+)*9)%1000]])*22
22:14:06 <ais523> EgoBot: you mean *21 at the end
22:14:12 <elliott> ais523: nope, see start of loop
22:14:19 <ais523> not that it'll matter, that clear loop is incapable of falling off the tape anyway
22:14:26 <ais523> if you move the > to the start
22:14:30 <ais523> as you want to move at most 29 times
22:14:56 <ais523> oh dear, egojoust has got muddled again
22:15:00 <elliott> ais523: is slowpoke's loop any good if you remove the (+)*9?
22:15:03 <ais523> you two should both submit your program again
22:15:08 <ais523> elliott: that's an offset
22:15:18 <elliott> !bfjoust camber (>)*8(>(+)*9[-[-([-[-{[...+[...+]]>}]][+--[+--]]>(+)*9)%1000]])*22
22:15:20 <elliott> ais523: yes, but a slow offset
22:15:36 <ais523> well, you can change it to an offset clear or non-offset clear or whatever
22:15:40 <ais523> but who uses non-offset clears these days?
22:16:04 <ais523> what I will say is that against slowpoke, the optimal offset size is probably either 2 or 30, or maybe 32
22:16:37 <elliott> your clear is lame, it does badly on your own decoys
22:17:16 <ais523> well, that clear is incredibly inflexible
22:17:26 <ais523> it just beats defence programs trivially
22:17:31 <elliott> ISTR my interior_crocodile_alligator one being okay
22:17:40 <ais523> no existing defence program, or even existing defence /strategy/, will work well against it
22:17:50 <ais523> I've thought of a couple that might
22:17:56 <elliott> ais523: what about "assume opponent is using perfect RNG"?
22:18:00 <ais523> but I fear they'd be rather detail-dependent
22:18:02 <elliott> hmm, kinda hard to counter :P
22:18:06 <ais523> elliott: and how do you lock that?
22:18:24 <elliott> grr, in_egobot isn't loading
22:18:29 <ais523> you use your own perfect RNG with your same seed, that might work
22:18:40 -!- variable has joined.
22:18:42 <elliott> what kind of perfect RNG has a seed?
22:19:01 <elliott> i suppose it makes sense. kinda.
22:19:01 <ais523> a reproducible perfect RNG, ofc
22:19:10 <ais523> being reproducible is generally good in an RNG
22:19:11 <elliott> if you had a functional definition (which would have to be infinitely-long)
22:19:14 <ais523> especially if you have an infinite seedspace
22:19:21 <ais523> I mean, if you allow arbitrary real numbers as seeds
22:19:31 <ais523> then everything is just fine
22:19:40 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:20:03 <ais523> anyway, it might be interesting if BF Joust had a nested loop limit
22:20:12 <ais523> in order to remove timer clear strategies
22:20:16 <ais523> that is, if they prove to hurt the gameplay
22:21:24 <elliott> I forgot ICA's clear is insane
22:21:35 <elliott> [-[++[(-)*128([-{([+{[-]}])%64}])%64]]]
22:21:39 <ais523> and very culnerable to triplocks
22:21:49 <ais523> very very very vulnerable to triplocks
22:22:01 <ais523> triplocking works against programs with three or more ] in a row
22:22:06 <ais523> and that program has, umm, 129?
22:22:56 <ais523> (admittedly, they have to be actually executed for the lock to work, and at the right moment)
22:23:04 <ais523> but they would be in that clear
22:23:11 <ais523> the triplock is IIRC how waterfall3 beats ICA
22:23:13 <Phantom_Hoover> http://tourdelisp.blogspot.com/2008/03/lisper-first-look-at-haskell.html
22:23:30 <ais523> also, ICA is an acronym I use all the time in my day job (idealized concurrent algol) so seeing it in this context is weird
22:23:42 <elliott> ais523: I hope you don't use CMT too.
22:23:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:24:23 <ais523> that one's used a lot on certain Internet forums
22:24:28 <ais523> but not by me, and it's not so much of a jar
22:24:32 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
22:25:28 <elliott> err, that sounds like a really irritating gthing to say
22:25:38 <fizzie> ais523: It's also Independent Component Analysis, a blind source separation thing our lab's been involved in; somewhat known in the "cocktail party problem" context.
22:25:39 <ais523> which in trading forums, translates to "you have something I want, look at what I have to see if there's something you want too"
22:25:53 <elliott> looks like egojsout doesn't handle {}
22:26:05 <ais523> I'm relatively sure it does
22:26:11 <elliott> time to troll fizzie a bit
22:26:16 <elliott> fizzie: voice input is useless
22:26:34 <fizzie> I don't think I'm up to the "no it's not" repetition this time, sowwy.
22:26:58 <elliott> fizzie: so can your system understand that "sowwy" is sorry
22:27:13 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: "Stuff."
22:27:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Kills kittens for fun and profit.
22:27:26 <elliott> I lie; he's a professional IRCer.
22:27:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: err, ais523 was the javateacher
22:27:35 <fizzie> I haven't really taught Java; that's more of an ais523 thing.
22:27:51 <elliott> ais523 just kills young CSers' minds for profit!
22:27:53 <ais523> this month's exercise is effectively "recreate Zork"
22:27:56 <elliott> (I kid, I kid, they probably deserve it.)
22:28:00 <ais523> although it's not me that set it
22:28:06 <ais523> elliott: I'm trying to improve the average skill of Java programmers
22:28:06 <fizzie> There's an ICA poster on the wall in a nearby corridor at work; it's really quite a cheat.
22:28:09 <ais523> which admittedly isn't difficult
22:28:12 <elliott> ais523: not exactly the worst exercise in the world
22:28:18 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, ISTR him marking Java programs a while ago...
22:28:28 <elliott> unless you mean the bot tournament
22:28:36 <elliott> which is the most interesting thing i know nothing about.
22:29:16 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: The AI tournament uses Java, right, but that's just my "side job"; it's not even our department's course.
22:29:55 <elliott> He summarises #esoteric every day.
22:30:01 <fizzie> Noise-robustness for speechy stuff, in the most general sense.
22:30:02 <elliott> Unfortunately they're under an NDA.
22:30:09 <elliott> fizzie: Yeah, yeah, your cover story.
22:30:16 <elliott> Nobody would ever REALLY work on something so pointless.
22:30:28 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, is it capable of comprehending the Scottish accent?
22:30:37 <elliott> NOT EVEN HUMANS ARE CAPABLE OF THAT
22:30:47 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_NOTAREALantislowpoke: 14.2
22:30:47 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_foo: 4.2
22:30:47 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_antislowpoke: 0.0
22:30:47 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_antislowpoke: 0.0
22:30:47 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_camber: 19.6
22:30:47 <EgoBot> Score for elliott_camber: 19.6
22:31:14 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_foo: 0.0
22:31:35 <Deewiant> !bfjoust NOTAREALantislowpoke (>)*8(>++[-]---)*21
22:31:38 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_NOTAREALantislowpoke: 14.8
22:31:45 <Sgeo> pikhq_, why is Suzumiya Haruhi trying to teach me math?
22:31:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:32:13 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Our system's been evaluated mostly for Finnish, really. I don't think anyone in our group is doing English dialects.
22:32:39 <fizzie> The acoustics lab guys have some sort of "recognize speech when the speaker's yelling" thing, I think that's curious enough.
22:35:31 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Cause that's susùmiyaharuhinoyûutu for you.
22:35:53 <Sgeo> I think... there might be an issue with this piece of math though
22:36:04 <Sgeo> There seems to be an undeserved assumption
22:37:34 <Sgeo> With the house with the Planar Graph Theorem thing, it should be impossible to determine whether x=vertices and z=sides (as assumed by Koizumi) or x=sides and z=vertices
22:38:27 <Deewiant> !bfjoust ALMOSTantislowpoke +(>)*8(>[++[-]]+)*21
22:38:45 <pikhq_> Oh, what does koisùmi know about math anyways? :P
22:39:21 <Sgeo> pikhq_, am I mistaken?
22:40:00 <pikhq_> Damned ambiguities in kana.
22:40:17 <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_ALMOSTantislowpoke: 19.2
22:40:35 <pikhq_> (sù and tù are pronounced *exactly the same*, and often get romanised the same.)
22:43:09 <Deewiant> elliott: <<<<<<<><<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<><<<<<<<<<<<<< 38, feel free to fix it.
22:43:19 <elliott> Deewiant: I'm already working on my own. :p
22:43:36 <Sgeo> pikhq_, answer me! (please)
22:43:57 <pikhq_> Sgeo: I don't know why susùmiyaharuhi is trying to teach you math at all!
22:44:24 <Sgeo> pikhq_, so I'm likely to just be correct in this matter?
22:45:33 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:50:51 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:50:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, is it that an Euler characteristic doesn't change if you swap faces and vertices?
22:52:25 <Sgeo> The equation in the book certainly seemed to be saying that
22:57:36 -!- jcp has joined.
23:02:27 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:22:01 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | which is not the same thing as Windows Services for UNIX, based on the Interix subsystem.
23:24:12 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
23:24:51 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:28:23 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | your parents should add a filter.
23:28:26 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | hm.
23:28:28 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | [22:51:47] virsys [n=virsys@or-67-232-64-36.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit IRC: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out).
23:28:30 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | │ │ (0x1000000) Alignment value to which kernel should be aligned │ │.
23:28:32 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | A bit silly to have to open a Chromium for web browsing when the while thing is Chromium.
23:28:35 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | ais523, it is 20" btw.
23:28:36 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | well exactly, people read "strcmp foo bar" and think foo==bar.
23:28:39 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | Oh, if it's a shell/dispatcher thingy, that's not too bad..
23:28:41 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | Ibwasnt running much.
23:28:43 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | Phantom_Hoover, it was like in the lab recently. Some prankster had taken all the female-female-serial-cable-converters and hooked them up into something that was almost a complete circle.
23:28:47 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | I wish that web browsers would do justified text rendering, though....
23:28:50 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | If Station V3 actually had a website, it would probably suck me into a dimensional portal or something.
23:28:52 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | u.
23:28:53 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | any non-variable merely advances the ip.
23:28:55 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | dependent on your logic that might _be_ an axiom..
23:29:06 <elliott> Deewiant: Hey, advancing optbot repeatedly is Traditoin.
23:29:07 <optbot> elliott: oh, and y should tell the program which is the case?
23:29:09 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | Set one awsistor to 1 and a different one to 0 for 1, and visa versa for 0, and send a pulse when something changes?.
23:29:11 <Sgeo> Rust uses reference counting for immutable stuff, and GC for mutable stuff
23:29:13 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | Is good..
23:29:18 <Sgeo> That makes a twisted kind of sense.
23:33:38 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
23:36:22 <Sgeo> Oh, the FAQ may be out of date
23:36:33 <Sgeo> There's an immutable later, a state layer, and a gc layer
23:38:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:40:49 <Sgeo> notations are marked using a special form of bracketing, such that a reader unfamiliar
23:40:49 <Sgeo> with the extension can still parse the surrounding text by skipping over the bracketed
23:40:49 <Sgeo> extension text"
23:40:54 <Sgeo> This puts me in a good mood
23:48:09 <Sgeo> Hmm, prove is a keyword
23:50:36 -!- azaq23 has joined.
00:00:13 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:09:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
00:10:00 <elliott> s x y z c = x z (\xz. xz y z c); k x y c = c x
00:10:18 <elliott> skk = \x c. s k (\sk. sk k x c)
00:10:28 <elliott> skkFOO = \c. s k (\sk. sk k x FOO)
00:10:45 <elliott> skkFOO(id) = s k (\sk. sk k FOO id)
00:10:53 <elliott> and at this point i get too lazy
00:11:03 <elliott> and also, realise that each partial application needs a c.
00:12:26 <elliott> 14:33:02 <ihope_> Did Jesus have a sacred hammer?
00:12:27 <elliott> 14:34:02 <GregorR-W> Well, he was a carpenter, and a lot of people would probably consider just about anything he ever touched sacred.
00:12:28 <elliott> 14:34:04 <GregorR-W> So I'd have to say ye.
00:12:32 <elliott> 14:34:28 <ihope_> He was a carpenter?
00:12:36 <elliott> 14:35:09 <GregorR-W> How can anyone in the western hemisphere not know that.
00:12:38 <elliott> 14:35:55 <ihope_> I take it I'm in the western hemisphere...
00:12:42 <elliott> 14:36:25 <GregorR-W> I am stunned.
00:15:57 -!- cheater- has joined.
00:16:38 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.02: 256k+64k+16k+8k+4k+1k to China, 16k+1k+512 to Indonesia, 32k to China, 1k to South Korea, 2k to Vietnam, 2k to Singapore, 64k to Thailand.
00:19:06 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:19:32 * pikhq_ notes that the Greek did not actually specify "carpenter". It used a more general term for what amounts to a skilled laborer.
00:19:44 <pikhq_> Could very well have been a mason, or a smith, or whatever else.
00:20:10 <elliott> 15:05:31 <oerjanj> hei kipple (=rune?)
00:20:10 <elliott> 15:06:31 <oerjanj> det var stille her
00:20:10 <elliott> 15:06:54 <kipple> det er ikke akkurat den mest aktive kanalen i verden nei
00:20:11 <elliott> 15:06:58 <oerjanj> i wondered if keymaker was here he seemed interested in my last language
00:20:13 <elliott> 15:07:28 <oerjanj> det var mer liv sist men det var litt senere på kvelden
00:20:16 <Gregor> Or just somebody who listed himself as a skilled labor because it helped him cheat on his taxes.
00:20:20 <pikhq_> The interpretation of Jesus as carpenter is, well, fan fiction.
00:20:23 <elliott> Gregor: I approve of this interpretation.
00:20:30 <elliott> That's why he was such a dick to taxy-men.
00:20:35 <pikhq_> Just like almost all details of hell.
00:21:02 <pikhq_> And essentially all practices of a modern church except communion.
00:21:47 <pikhq_> Oh, and baptism of believers. That's actually in there, too.
00:22:01 <pikhq_> Gregor: Communism is not a practice of the modern church.
00:22:09 <Gregor> *baptism of infants too young to be capable of having distinguished beliefs
00:22:13 <pikhq_> Gregor: Though a form of it *was* a practice of the early church.
00:22:23 <pikhq_> Baptism of infants is mostly a Catholic thing.
00:22:36 <elliott> well it does something i thought impossible. but is useless.
00:22:52 <elliott> oh wait, ihope already wrote that. in 2006. :)
00:23:03 <pikhq_> And rejecting it is actually the raison d'etre for many Protestant sects.
00:23:24 <pikhq_> Including, of all things, the Amish.
00:23:37 <elliott> can you swap two tape cells in BF?
00:23:39 <elliott> without using a third value...
00:23:50 <Gregor> Without using a third? No.
00:24:26 <pikhq_> I think you may be able to pull it off in 1-bit BF.
00:25:22 <elliott> if { right; if {} else {flip left flip} } else { right; if {flip left flip} else {} }
00:25:36 <pikhq_> That's almost valid PEBBLE.
00:25:38 <elliott> umm, so basically if x==y then flip both :)
00:26:01 <elliott> pikhq_: what's it in pebble?
00:26:10 <elliott> hm wait I can do this I think
00:26:30 <elliott> if { right; flip; if {left flip} else {flip} } else { right; if {flip left flip} else {} }
00:26:41 <elliott> if { right; flip; if {left flip} else {flip} } else { right; flip; if {left flip} else {flip} }
00:27:31 * elliott looks up how to do if in regular bf
00:27:56 <elliott> wait I can't use a regular if
00:28:10 <pikhq_> if is destructive, yeah.
00:28:30 <pikhq_> And if-else requires a temporary cell, I think.
00:28:35 <elliott> while { right; flip; if {left flip **LOOP WILL END AFTER THIS**} else {flip **LOOP WILL CONTINUE AFTER THIS**}}
00:28:55 <elliott> while { right; flip; if {left flip **LOOP WILL END AFTER THIS**} else {flip; right **LOOP WILL END AFTER THIS, BUT ONE CELL TOO FAR**}}
00:29:14 <elliott> while { right; flip; if {left flip right **LOOP WILL END AFTER THIS, BUT ONE CELL TOO FAR**} else {flip; right **LOOP WILL END AFTER THIS, BUT ONE CELL TOO FAR**}}
00:29:34 <elliott> while { right; flip; if {left flip right} else {flip right} } left
00:29:40 <elliott> except that the else crept back in :D
00:29:43 <pikhq_> You realise you need to actually implement if-else for that to work, right?
00:29:52 <elliott> while { right; flip; if {left}; flip right } left
00:30:06 <elliott> while { right; flip; while {left}; flip right } left
00:30:15 <elliott> since left is *true* here...
00:30:20 <pikhq_> while {left; flip} will.
00:30:31 <elliott> pikhq_: yes, but gives the wrong result for the rest of the code :)
00:30:40 <elliott> this can be done as a truth table
00:30:49 <elliott> will have both 1s in the output
00:31:08 <elliott> so there is no way to do an if, I think...
00:31:21 <elliott> you can't halt after generating "1,1" with []
00:31:29 <elliott> without moving outside those bounds
00:33:13 <pikhq_> Well, you *could* successfully flip 0,1 and 1,0 around. :P
00:33:40 <elliott> I think you can swap two bits with one extra bit trivially.
00:34:44 <elliott> while {right right flip left left flip}; right; while {left flip right flip}; right; while {left flip right flip}; left; left
00:35:54 <elliott> you can't swap the two registers of a minsky machine
00:40:05 <elliott> ǃqháa̰kūǂnûmǁɢˤûlitêǀèdtxóʔluǀnàeǂʼásˤàa̰
00:40:06 <elliott> giveMPO:4PROtwogenital:22-PASS:3stench:3DAT:3PROCOM:2fat:22
00:40:06 <elliott> "Give them their stinking genitals with the fat!"
00:40:15 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/!X%C3%B3%C3%B5_language
00:40:45 <Gregor> What is the nonsuckiest of program argument handling libraries?
00:41:03 <Gregor> Or better yet, one-header macromess :P
00:41:58 <pikhq_> Gregor: Here's a katana.
00:42:01 <elliott> Gregor: But really it's one of the many simple problems that the C language has no convenient facility for dealing with: an option is essentially best described by an ADT.
00:42:23 <elliott> In C, any sufficiently rich option parser will be using a big struct with a bunch of enums, which never leads to a nice API.
00:42:30 <pikhq_> Now, to commit se'hųku properly, you need to be able to write 口 correctly...
00:42:44 <Gregor> Hence "nonsuckiest", not "best" :P
00:42:45 <pikhq_> And a skilled swordsman to assist you in case you screw up.
00:44:13 <elliott> Gregor: Weeeeell, since it's easy to implement there's no shortage of choices, but I don't know anything I'd consider as "good"; usually I just use getopt (even getopt_long) or hack up my own thing. Or not write the program in C (my favourite).
00:44:29 <elliott> There's always the GNUUUUUUUUUUU choice: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/resources/courses/2005/17423/doc/libc/Argp.html
00:45:31 <Gregor> Yeah, I guess I'll just stick with self-hackery, just wondering if something nonsuck had cropped up while I wasn't looking.
00:45:44 <elliott> What're you working on? Or just a general question?
00:46:06 <elliott> Also, lol @ the idea of something new in C ever cropping up :)
00:46:19 <elliott> Not since, uhhhh, Duff's Device?
00:47:14 <Gregor> Fythe. AKA "program you will now find some facet of to ridicule"
00:47:29 <elliott> Gregor: Actually I was thinking of working on my own Fythe-esque VM... :p
00:47:39 <elliott> Gregor: Remember that Fythe is essentially a slight perversion of an idea I gave you wholesale :P
00:47:44 <elliott> (Obviously, I invented Forth.)
00:48:12 <Gregor> Actually it's turned into a huge perversion that has greater resemblance to Lisp except really has no resemblance to either :P
00:48:43 <elliott> It's stack-based and words can control the parsing stream (I think); that's Forth.
00:48:58 <elliott> If they can't control the parsing Scheme, way to defeat the whole point of the extensibility Forth gives you :-P
00:49:03 <Gregor> It's not stack based and word's can't control the parsing stream ... per se.
00:49:10 <elliott> Gregor: I thought it was stack-based.
00:49:30 <elliott> The whole point with me giving you the idea is that there would essentially be an (automatically-executed) "plof" definition that took over the parsing stream with a regular (extensible) Plof parser.
00:49:37 <Sgeo> I know I've seen the suggestion of separate tail-cal vs. not-a-tail-call thing before, but Rust actually does it
00:49:55 <Gregor> elliott: Uhh, THAT'S what I already had :P
00:50:22 <Gregor> Fythe was to add a more powerful controllable compilation layer to it such that you could create output code that doesn't suck.
00:50:28 <elliott> Gregor: The point is that you could, given a Fythe REPL of some sort, write "c int main() { return 42; } HEY C WORD, THIS IS YOUR CUE TO END 1 +"
00:50:36 <elliott> (Given that c pushes the return value of the program.)
00:50:42 <elliott> Gregor: At least that was /my/ point.
00:50:58 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, that's what I already had :P
00:51:12 <Gregor> elliott: Not an implementation of C in particular, but yeah.
00:51:50 <Sgeo> I really, really like log and note
00:52:26 <Gregor> The problem was that the way I defined it made it much easier to do very local compilation ... basically taking each expression independently and treating its arguments as a black box. This produces shittacular code.
00:52:45 <elliott> Gregor: Shittacular but elegant!
00:52:52 <Gregor> Yes. But shittacular :P
00:52:55 <elliott> Gregor: Is Fythe JITted? If not: TOTAL OPPORTUNITY MISSED THERE YO
00:53:01 <elliott> (Wait, wait, JITting isn't ANSI C PORTABLE.)
00:53:13 <Gregor> The JIT in particular is GNUy :P
00:53:14 <elliott> Gregor: Please tell me every damn JITting part has a huge ifdef mess to optionally not JIT :P
00:53:25 <Gregor> It has no non-JIT option right now.
00:53:54 <elliott> The reason I'd do a Fythe-esque VM rather than using Fythe, apart from NIHness, is for hosted implementation of @...
00:54:26 <Gregor> Well, Fythe has its flaws and weirdnesses anyway, it'd be cool to see what somebody who isn't me would write with the same basic premise.
00:54:31 <elliott> JITting might actually be a downside there insofar as portability would be nice, but OTOH who cares about non-Linux.
00:55:09 <Gregor> Uhhh, non-/Linux/? My JIT works ARM, x86, x86_64, and on Linux, Windows and Mac OS X.
00:55:23 <elliott> Wrote it before your line.
00:55:32 <elliott> Gregor: Sure. It'd not "really" be Fythe, though, because the language would be designed to be possible to write semi-complex pieces of software in without too much of a headache. (After all, @'s super-advanced high-level language's compiler has to be implemented in it.)
00:55:45 <elliott> OTOH a lot of that could be built up in the language itself.
00:55:55 <Gregor> I thought @ was an OS ... so I don't understand how "non-Linux" fits in since it ... is ... non-Linux ... ?
00:56:14 <elliott> Gregor: Like I said, hosted implementation of @. Like a 16-bit OS considers the BIOS, hosted @ considers Linux.
00:56:32 <elliott> Gregor: This wouldn't be exclusive, just a first step, since hosted "only" OSes are just shitty programs.
00:56:59 <elliott> (The idea is that 99% of @ code in the long run would be portable, so ostensibly I could just write the low level x86-64 parts in the future and it'd all work. Ostensibly.)
00:57:08 <elliott> (Drivers and such might get in the way a bit. :p)
00:57:31 <elliott> "The formal meaning of TC describes abstract systems that are not necessarily physically realisable. If ais523 intended the formal meaning, then "HTML+CSS+infinite starting pattern" is TC, and the fact that this is not realisable is irrelevant. He cannot use "the pattern shown there" or "the example shown" as evidence against TC-ness of the abstract system."
00:58:13 <elliott> Does this person even posses... a brain...
00:58:38 <Gregor> NEW SOLUTION: I was planning on having a way for Fythe programs to pull arguments off the argument "queue" anyway, and Fythe programs of course have a way of parsing Fythe programs (sort of by definition), so I'll just implement the argument parser as a Fythe program. Solution problemed! ... I mean problem solved!
00:59:06 <elliott> Gregor: Make it EXTENSIBLE.
00:59:12 <elliott> Through ILL-DEFINED MEANS.
00:59:31 <elliott> Gregor: Like, if I want to, I can swap out any program using a common "get an option" API to use a / prefix rather than --... EVEN IF THAT PREFIX IS EMBEDDED INTO THE GET AN OPTION API
00:59:41 <elliott> (Although that's easy, by just redefining it wholesale.)
00:59:48 <elliott> (But it's the cort that thounts.)
01:00:29 -!- oerjan has joined.
01:01:12 <elliott> ØST SUCCESSFULLY CALIBRATED
01:01:27 <elliott> oerjan: what you're saying is, you didn't sleep.
01:01:51 <elliott> ... ASSUMING oerjan isn't being a jerk by being inconsistent, he got up around 1:25 UTC, let's say.
01:02:16 <oerjan> given how this is going, i think i'll keep this as a challenge...
01:02:19 <elliott> oerjan: what's your "natural" feeling wakeuptime
01:02:25 <elliott> you know, when your 25 hour thing wraps around properly
01:02:33 <Gregor> ... well this is creepy.
01:02:51 <elliott> Gregor: He REFUSES to provide scientific data.
01:03:21 <elliott> Gregor: How else will I make a website telling the world the current UTC offset of Oerjan Standard Time?!?!?!?!?!??!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!!?!??!?!?!?!?!!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
01:03:27 <elliott> ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!???!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!!
01:03:32 <elliott> that's it, i'm going to analyse irc logs.
01:07:44 <oerjan> • pikhq_ notes that the Greek did not actually specify "carpenter". It used a more general term for what amounts to a skilled laborer.
01:08:02 <oerjan> NEXT YOU'LL BE TELLING ME THERE WEREN'T THREE WISE KINGS, EITHER
01:08:37 <oerjan> and no virgins anywhere to be seen.
01:09:23 <oerjan> <elliott> 15:09:47 <ihope> Swedish?
01:09:32 <oerjan> what is this, make ihope look stupid day?
01:10:25 <elliott> 19:14 -> 19:19 -> 18:58 -> 20:10 -> 23:44 -> gap -> 1:06 -> 2:11 -> 5:41 (?!?!?!) -> 13:50 (?!?!??!) -> 17:00 (?????) -> 15:55 -> 15:45 -> oerjan is fucking with me in the past
01:10:58 <elliott> i conclude that "Good night" has no relation to (1) whether it is night; (2) whether the quit constitutes a valid ØST recalibration
01:11:01 <oerjan> 01:03:37 <pikhq_> And essentially all practices of a modern church except communion.
01:11:05 <elliott> either that, or oerjan is just a dirty filthy liar.
01:11:08 <oerjan> 01:04:22 <pikhq_> Oh, and baptism of believers. That's actually in there, too.
01:11:34 <oerjan> i distinctly recall reading the protestants cut the sacraments down to those two presumably for that reason.
01:12:20 <oerjan> i think "Good night" usually describes my intent at the moment, at least.
01:12:38 <oerjan> whether i actually manage to go to sleep then, may vary.
01:13:14 <elliott> ok so I just need to find some samples that /do/ advance properly, and then interpolate from there ;D
01:13:24 <elliott> Gregor is now edging slowly away from me.
01:14:58 <oerjan> i assume the fact that i even in usual circumstances frequently take a break from irc while awake does not help.
01:16:34 <elliott> oerjan: that's why i only grepped for "Good night"
01:18:44 <oerjan> <pikhq_> Baptism of infants is mostly a Catholic thing.
01:18:53 <oerjan> norwegian church does that too...
01:19:46 <pikhq_> oerjan: Hence why I said "mostly".
01:20:09 <pikhq_> Some Protestant churches *do* keep many Catholic-origin traditions, after all.
01:20:32 <oerjan> <pikhq_> I think you may be able to pull it off in 1-bit BF.
01:20:55 <oerjan> no. the cell from which you leave the last loop must have a fixed final value.
01:22:23 <oerjan> (for more context <elliott> can you swap two tape cells in BF?
01:24:08 <oerjan> <elliott> you can't swap the two registers of a minsky machine
01:24:18 <oerjan> that would seem to be a stronger version of this, yes
01:24:40 <elliott> indeed, as I mentally swapped (ha!) "two values, infinite tape" and "infinite values, two-long tape"
01:25:27 <oerjan> elliott: which is what i did in my previous underload construction, too
01:27:04 <oerjan> <pikhq_> Now, to commit se'hųku properly, you need to be able to write 口 correctly...
01:27:11 <oerjan> <pikhq_> And a skilled swordsman to assist you in case you screw up.
01:27:22 <oerjan> those japanese take their calligraphy seriously.
01:28:20 <pikhq_> oerjan: Yes, you really, really do write a simple kanji in your stomach to commit seppuku.
01:29:26 <oerjan> which appropriately means "opening".
01:31:08 <oerjan> <Gregor> Actually it's turned into a huge perversion that has greater resemblance to Lisp except really has no resemblance to either :P
01:31:26 <oerjan> you might want to consult with someone else with a name starting in "gre"
01:38:14 <Sgeo> 8 math questions, 100 minutes
01:38:36 <oerjan> well could, if you could stay off irc.
01:39:38 <Sgeo> Have my SGU music playing
01:41:09 <Gregor> oerjan: Gre...enReaper?
01:41:53 -!- iconmaster has quit (Quit: What?! Open source isn't good enough for you? Bersirc 2.2 [ http://www.bersirc.org/ - Open Source IRC ]).
01:43:20 <oerjan> "Laurence "GreenReaper" Parry (born 1982) is the founder of WikiFur, editor-in-chief of Flayrah, and an amateur photographer."
01:43:27 <oerjan> Gregor: WELL IF YOU INSIST...
01:44:44 <oerjan> Gregor: GOOGLE EXISTENCE FAILURE
01:45:57 <oerjan> "Grezhnev, VA (V A) :: [A device for automatic determination, calculation and storage of parameters in cardiointervalography]
01:46:41 <oerjan> parameters after my heart
01:47:32 <oerjan> in fact the first one was closest.
01:47:37 -!- iconmaster has joined.
01:49:04 <oerjan> i fail to see how these are closer than the first one.
01:49:40 <Gregor> But will continue to guess.
01:51:19 <oerjan> how can anyone be Benevolent with a name like Guido, anyway
01:51:27 <Gregor> grep -i '^[^ ]* <gre[^g]' * | cut -d' ' -f 2 | sort | uniq
01:52:19 <Gregor> Some person who has never been in this channel? :P
01:52:30 <oerjan> i doubt he has been here...
01:52:46 <Gregor> WELL THEN THE GUESSING SEEMS PRETTY HOPELESS
01:53:04 <oerjan> we are talking about someone with expertise in lispy perversions.
01:54:10 -!- iconmaster has quit (Quit: Darn ANSIIIIIIIIIIIIIII).
01:54:24 <Gregor> Oh ... then I'm unlikely to be able to guess :P
01:54:35 <oerjan> you just need to put the right spin on it.
01:57:47 <Gregor> Why would the only sideways letter in Unicode be sideways O ...
01:58:58 <oerjan> well are you _sure_ they don't have sideways X as well
01:59:05 <Sgeo> Dear Wolfram Alpha: FCUK YO
01:59:40 <Sgeo> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=(15+choose+3)(.65^3)((1-.65)^(15-3))+%2B+(15+choose+2)(.65^2)((1-.65)^(15-2))+%2B+(15+choose+1)(.65^1)((1-.65)^(15-1))+%2B+(15+choose+0)(.65^0)((1-.65)^(15-0))+%3D
01:59:48 <Sgeo> Why won't you accept it as choose?
02:00:03 <Sgeo> Well, that's interesting
02:00:06 <Sgeo> It was due to the =
02:00:56 <oerjan> wolfram alpha contains a bug ridden implementation of all of mathematica
02:01:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
02:02:31 <elliott> http://www.iwriteiam.nl/Ha_bf_numb.html ah, this is a wonderful page, i forgot.
02:02:42 <elliott> <oerjan> "Laurence "GreenReaper" Parry (born 1982) is the founder of WikiFur, editor-in-chief of Flayrah, and an amateur photographer."
02:02:43 <elliott> <oerjan> Gregor: WELL IF YOU INSIST...
02:03:53 <elliott> oerjan: Grohn McCarthy?!?!??!?!!
02:04:39 <elliott> hm i find it hard to believe a 40 char bf program can't generate a larger number than 1172812402960.
02:04:49 <elliott> iirc dbc had some short program outputting a very large number in here years ago.
02:05:04 <oerjan> naggum is dead. if Gregor has means of consulting with him, be very careful.
02:05:48 <elliott> oerjan: HE LIVES ON IN SEXPRESSIONS.
02:10:41 <oerjan> maybe i should point out it's not the first name which starts with gre.
02:10:57 <elliott> so if I got up at 10:45. hmhm
02:12:37 <elliott> 35 hours. hey, that is not bad.
02:12:40 <Sgeo> Finishe my homework
02:13:15 <elliott> well, last time it was... about 34 hours.
02:13:28 <elliott> oerjan: two all-nighters in a row: best way to resynchronise?
02:14:39 <oerjan> elliott: i've had that backfire before
02:14:52 <elliott> i woke up well-rested today. thankfully.
02:15:05 <elliott> the whole problem is that i overslept, waking up about an hour and forty-five minutes later than i should have.
02:15:14 <elliott> and now I've been unable to get myself to bed on time (time = 1 am or so)
02:15:23 <oerjan> by oversleeping enough to flip right back again...
02:15:38 <elliott> oerjan: indeed, but thankfully i already did my oversleeping
02:15:41 <elliott> which is why i haven't been tired today
02:15:49 <elliott> oerjan: plus, i'll likely only last until about 9 pm.
02:15:53 <dbc> I had a short program generating Fibonacci numbers. But that page is talking about putting large numbers in a cell, which is unportable and slow and totally the wrong way to do things anyway.
02:15:56 <elliott> oerjan: so oversleeping is a /benefit/
02:16:08 <elliott> oerjan: otherwise i'd wake up at 5 am :)
02:16:27 <elliott> 12 hours of sleep puts me awake at 9 am, a perfectly cromulent time to get up.
02:16:48 <elliott> dbc: hmm, I'm sure you had a program to do that in the logs.
02:16:54 <elliott> anyway, the unportable/slowness is irrelevant.
02:16:57 <elliott> the point is purely theoretical :)
02:17:05 <elliott> it's basically busy beaver problem
02:17:25 <elliott> since it takes cycles to generate a number, etc.
02:18:43 <elliott> oerjan: also i might go out and walk about a bit in the daytime to keep me awake. (i'm more sane than to go on your pattern of "GO FOR A BRISK WALK IN THE COLDEST SEASON OF A VERY COLD COUNTRY AT THE COLDEST, DARKEST TIME OF NIGHT")
02:19:36 <elliott> 05:34:07 <GregorR> I'm in Keswick (pronounced Kezik for some reason). Bye :-P
02:19:36 <elliott> THE REASON FOR ITS PRONUNCIATION IS A CLOSELY-GUARDED BRITISH SECRET.
02:21:58 <oerjan> obviously it was at one time conquered by a stray turkish battalion, and you are trying to hide the embarassment
02:24:42 <dbc> Okay, I just spent a minute or so dinking with the problem afresh, without too much luck. I'll see if it's in my logfiles on this computer now.
02:26:47 <elliott> Read as "drinking"; alcohol is a great way to get BF inspiration.
02:26:55 <dbc> Not recent enough.
02:27:27 <elliott> I could grep, but I would have trouble finding a decent regexp.
02:27:45 <elliott> 18:55:14 <dbc> Did anyone do anything with your busy beaver task?
02:27:46 <elliott> 18:55:26 * immibis wonders what ihope__ and dbc are talking about
02:27:46 <elliott> 18:55:34 * immibis reads the irc log
02:27:46 <elliott> 18:55:46 * immibis sees that you are running a BF factorial program.
02:27:49 <elliott> Well, that seems plausible.
02:28:17 <elliott> 04:43:56 <dbc> !bf >>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<<++++[>++++++++++[>++++++++++[>.<-]<-]<-]
02:28:18 <elliott> 04:44:00 <EgoBot> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
02:29:27 <elliott> oerjan: If I'm yawning now things are going well, right?
02:29:58 <elliott> oerjan: it's 3 am. SO gonna go outside at the crack of dawn*
02:30:12 <dbc> That last one is clearly not it.
02:30:16 <elliott> clearly writing this forth os will sharpen my mind.
02:30:22 <elliott> dbc: Well yeah, but it's a BF program!
02:31:00 <elliott> hmm, with a bignum tape, you can do 2^x for any x with constant overhead, right?
02:31:02 <oerjan> i think that just calculates 4*10*10
02:31:35 <elliott> so it stands to reason that M(l+k) >= 2^M(l), where M(l) is the largest integer a halting BF program of length l can leave on a bignum tape.
02:32:00 <dbc> 2^x (or 3^x or whatever) using x commands plus constant overhead, yes.
02:32:38 <oerjan> elliott: um that page you linked clearly explains how to do powers
02:32:42 <dbc> Or less if x is biggish.
02:32:45 <elliott> dbc: Using x commands? Ah, well, right. No, what I meant was that if you have a program of length l that calculates n,
02:32:51 <elliott> then you just append the 2^ code, and get 2^n.
02:32:57 <elliott> So it does not even have to be a straight run of +s.
02:33:04 <elliott> It could be a more compact method of generating a large number.
02:33:15 <elliott> there is also http://www.iwriteiam.nl/D0904.html#15
02:33:42 <oerjan> in fact the Brainfuck constants page contains several examples of the method.
02:35:07 <elliott> Meanwhile, [on googlefight] 23:37:25 <thematrixeatsyou> whoever's repeatedly doing god vs s***n can piss off
02:35:44 <elliott> 23:38:28 <Arrogant> http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=jesus+porn&word2=furry+porn
02:35:45 <elliott> 23:38:36 <Arrogant> That is ... frightening.
02:35:48 <oerjan> i mean without garfunkel to protect him.
02:36:06 <elliott> Garfunkel obviously IS god.
02:36:19 <elliott> hard to reason sitting down
02:36:55 <elliott> oerjan: So did the Garfield [WORD THAT SOUNDS LIKE MINUS] Garfield thing finally die?
02:37:06 <elliott> ah, "Garfield Skynet Garfield: Judgment Day" really did end them :D
02:37:23 <dbc> Something like [[>]+[<]>-]>>[<[>++<-]>>] is reasonably concise, though imprecise.
02:37:24 <oerjan> elliott: i recall dmm saying something about taking a break at least.
02:39:04 <elliott> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/comics/0629.png this is nice
02:39:09 <dbc> It doesn't produce powers. It produces big power-y numbers.
02:51:08 <elliott> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=652
02:52:50 <elliott> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/comics/0655.png
03:04:47 -!- shachaf has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:09:00 <elliott> 12:09:16 <fizzie> Anything I do that's related to the silly prototype phone is probably automagically under the NDA I signed when starting there.
03:18:15 <pikhq_> He can neither confirm nor deny it.
03:20:40 <elliott> 11:20:10 <ihope> ```si`k``si`k``sii``s``s`kski
03:20:40 <elliott> 11:21:06 <ihope> I think that's the Church numeral for Steinhaus's Mega.
03:20:40 <elliott> 11:30:14 <ihope> And ```si`k``si`k``si`k``sii``s``s`kski is much, much bigger...
03:20:40 <elliott> 12:15:32 <ihope> Now here's a nice sequence: !1 = 2, !2 = 8, !3 = 402653184*2^402653184.
03:28:32 -!- shachaf has joined.
03:36:11 <olsner> elliott: was it you who were trying to say something to me somewhere past my scrollback?
03:37:28 <elliott> 05:44:13 <Keymaker> done; http://koti.mbnet.fi/yiap/stuff/selfmd5.py
03:37:29 <elliott> 05:45:32 <Keymaker> it's md5 (and output) is (or at least should be) b1f532d69db9c1366389ff855da9ae04
03:37:49 <elliott> well hexdigest of that string isn't same :P
03:46:07 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
03:46:09 -!- pikhq has joined.
03:46:16 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined.
03:48:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:54:01 -!- variable has quit (Quit: /dev/io failed).
03:55:52 <olsner> "I thought 4.3 billion potential addresses would be adequate for conducting the experiments to prove the technology. If it worked, then we could go back and design the production version. Of course, it is now 2011, and the experiment never exactly ended." :D
03:56:45 * elliott watches no red pandas do absolutely nothing -- live
03:56:48 <RodgerTheGreat> I still contend that the ugliness of IPv6 addresses is a major stumbling block to adoption over v4
03:56:53 <elliott> The wonders. Of the internet.
03:57:02 <elliott> RodgerTheGreat: DNS was invented decades ago to solve the ugliness of IP addresses.
03:57:15 <elliott> (he says, while hosting logs at "208.78.103.223")
03:57:45 <RodgerTheGreat> see also LANs and a million other places where people like us work with IPs
03:58:07 <elliott> RodgerTheGreat: Anyway, considering that IANA is completely devoid of IPv4 addresses (apart from strongly reserved ->IPv6 transitional blocks), and the RIRs are running out fast, quibbles like that really don't matter any more. :)
03:58:08 <RodgerTheGreat> at the end of the day we'll have to look at the damn things
03:58:15 <elliott> In that if IPv6 isn't adopted, there just is no internet.
03:58:22 <elliott> RodgerTheGreat: If they are internal addresses, you can assign them how you want with IPv4...
03:58:45 <elliott> IPv4 isn't going to "go away" any time in the next trillion years, it'll just be relatively useless externally in the long term.
03:59:04 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm not saying IPv6 isn't going to be adopted, I'm saying it kinda sucks and represents a missed opportunity/misstep
03:59:28 <elliott> Secure, decentralised, human-meaningful: pick two.
03:59:32 <elliott> IP addresses *must* be decentralised.
03:59:39 <elliott> IP addresses *must* be secure (in that you can't just pick the same IP as someone else).
03:59:44 <elliott> Therefore they cannot be human meaningful.
03:59:55 <elliott> That needs to be handled at a separate layer, i.e. DNS.
04:00:05 <elliott> BTW, there's no reason you can't assign internal hostnames either, at the router level.
04:00:45 <RodgerTheGreat> tacking on another couple of .FF suffixes would've solved the problem without making them nasty to parse and look at
04:01:05 -!- augur has joined.
04:01:06 <elliott> "Couple"? 32-bit vs. 128-bit :P
04:01:50 <elliott> Clearly we all need to use the @DN instead.
04:01:55 <elliott> Until then, IPv6 is perfectly cromulent.
04:04:36 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
04:05:06 <RodgerTheGreat> in other news I have built a partial implementation of itertools for forth: http://pastebin.com/kMsZRR8U
04:06:35 <elliott> Wow... it'll offend both Forthers and Pythonistas (hate that term) alike.
04:07:14 <elliott> It looks a bit un-factored, especially range/sequence/slice/filter/chain/zip having very similar structure to my eyes. But fun.
04:07:22 <elliott> A pain to manage the memory manually though.
04:07:34 <elliott> Also I think standard convention is to put the ; on the last line, but who cares...
04:07:50 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I haven't implemented repeat and cycle, so I don't have to do dynamic allocation
04:08:15 <elliott> So map destroys the original iterator?
04:08:53 <elliott> In HASKELL, generators/iterators are exactly equivalent to lists. >:)
04:09:06 <RodgerTheGreat> I am currently using defining words that build anonymous words to function as closures
04:09:27 <elliott> ("newtype Generator a = Gen (Maybe (a, Generator a))" is directly algebraically transformable into the list type.)
04:09:29 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, well in Forth I know what actually happens when I use generators
04:09:43 <elliott> I know what happens in Haskell, too. :p
04:09:50 <elliott> But that's because I know the language and stuff.
04:09:54 <olsner> elliott: and in PYTHON, generators are merely retarded >:)
04:10:10 <elliott> olsner: Whaddya do when you have a limited set of control structures and they all suck.
04:11:05 <RodgerTheGreat> in my language none of the control structures are primitive
04:11:37 <pikhq> Heck, I've actually directly implemented Haskell-like lists in C.
04:11:42 <pikhq> ... A few different times.
04:11:55 <elliott> (Well... "if x then y else z" is, but that's a wart; you can just as easily rewrite that as a function (though without the then/else, but those are warts in themselves))
04:16:06 <elliott> oerjan: if your language has no way to distinguish any two values, then you're not going to be able to implement every other control structure :D
04:16:17 <elliott> (you could do it Church style in Haskell I guess, buuuut...)
04:16:17 <RodgerTheGreat> forth could conceivably be extended to act like haskell. Dunno why anyone would want to do that, though.
04:16:24 <elliott> RodgerTheGreat: To get a high-level language?
04:16:41 <pikhq> Indeed, Forth is both low-level and highly flexible.
04:16:54 <pikhq> Pretty much any bending/breaking of the language is permissible.
04:17:02 <elliott> I like Forth, but I'd rather write a large program in Haskell than Forth by far.
04:17:12 <elliott> It's just about levels of expression and abstraction.
04:17:23 <elliott> At a certain point in Forth, to go further you have to write your own interpreter loop.
04:17:31 <elliott> And at that point you can't reasonably claim you're programming in Forth any more.
04:17:50 <RodgerTheGreat> forth is somewhat hampered by the general "anti-library" culture
04:18:19 <elliott> RodgerTheGreat: Well... it excels in writing self-contained systems.
04:18:22 <elliott> So that's hardly surprising.
04:18:26 <elliott> (Embedded work is a subset of this.)
04:18:50 <elliott> "It's 2011, and my IDE still doesn't have a REPL!" ;; the title of a blog post written by somebody using the wrong IDE.
04:19:32 <RodgerTheGreat> part of this is because the language is only half of "forth". The other half is an engineering approach that is about agressive simplification. If you don't have a closed system, unnecessary complexity from the outside world will leak in and make your forth uglier and more complex
04:19:53 <elliott> Sure... which is a direct argument *against* libraries.
04:20:12 <elliott> That kind of thing works for many tasks, but Forth tends to fall apart when it comes into contact with large *inherent* complexity.
04:20:36 <elliott> Like I said, you can do it, but you end up writing an ad-hoc, probably buggy and flawed language, and then writing your actual program in that language.
04:20:50 <pikhq> Moore would hate MPEG.
04:21:00 <elliott> I don't think he would. I don't know Moore as a person who says things that are blatantly wrong.
04:21:13 <elliott> RodgerTheGreat: Uh, actually, he did this talk on colorForth where he suggested someone write a web browser.
04:21:37 <RodgerTheGreat> but his argument isn't completely flawed. Browsers could be much, much simpler than they are
04:21:41 <elliott> The web is of course totally accidental/engineered overcomplexity. But not everything fits directly into Forth as cleanly as it might in another language.
04:21:58 <elliott> Oh, I hate the web, who doesn't? It's incredibly badly architectured.
04:22:21 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm imagining he'd like something more like wget with a graphics package
04:22:35 <elliott> wget? That involves all the complexity of TCP.
04:22:39 <elliott> wget? That involves all the complexity of HTTP.
04:23:03 <elliott> I'd imagine he'd just load arbitrary Forth programs off the wire... I'm not sure he'd add any security to it either :
04:23:21 <elliott> ...which is a worse design than the web, but at least a simpler one.
04:23:36 <elliott> It can be critiqued in a few lines, rather than the book it'd take to dissect the web.
04:24:19 <elliott> Right. Then the problem is transferring stuff out (but it wouldn't be too hard).
04:24:24 <RodgerTheGreat> and given how easy forth-in-forth can be it wouldn't be that ridiculous to implement
04:24:31 <elliott> RodgerTheGreat: Unfortunately a sandbox would take quite a bit of work in Forth, since words usually touch the hardware very directly.
04:24:34 <elliott> I don't think it would be elegant.
04:25:09 <pikhq> Perhaps the worst bit of that design is that it would be very hard to design pages *well* in such a scheme.
04:25:12 <RodgerTheGreat> if you don't care about speed it comes down to a handful of "dangerous" primitives like ! @ and execute
04:25:17 <pikhq> Much like HTML, to be honest.
04:25:24 <elliott> RodgerTheGreat: and p@ and p! (in cforth)
04:25:32 <elliott> probably dozens of others that access memory without asking :)
04:25:45 <pikhq> Though at least you wouldn't be spending your time working around straight-up misfeatures.
04:25:49 <RodgerTheGreat> there are really only a handful that can't be implemented in terms of others
04:26:09 <elliott> RodgerTheGreat: So now you've complicated the problem of an information system into a Forth implementation.
04:26:14 <RodgerTheGreat> and again, if speed is not a consideration you can build a huge percentage of a forth system in high-level forth
04:26:20 <elliott> Imagine implementation incompatibilities in *that* :)
04:26:27 <elliott> RodgerTheGreat: Sure, but then you're not taking advantage of Forth really.
04:26:30 <elliott> You can implement Forth in anything.
04:26:36 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Why yes, you can write a Lisp in anything.
04:26:50 <elliott> My Pet Solution to the web is simply distributed object retrieval.
04:26:55 <elliott> (Where object is _not_ used in the OOP sense.)
04:27:09 <elliott> (Well... slightly. But >90% of OOP is bunk.)
04:27:18 <RodgerTheGreat> if it's a mirror of how the underlying system works, it isn't a significant increase in the complexity of the whole, which is really what I see as the issue
04:27:21 -!- copumpkin has joined.
04:27:53 <elliott> One thing is that systems like Haskell seem complex and inscrutable *only* because we approach them from a background biased against them; take a look at your x86.
04:28:04 <RodgerTheGreat> OOP isn't necessary for programming per se. OOP is useful for sawing up tasks and distributing them across multiple programmers. It's a teamwork methodology.
04:28:13 <elliott> Consider if we all had Reducerons, a CPU with no instruction set: http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/reduceron/
04:28:19 <elliott> It's a symbolic graph reducer on a chip.
04:28:26 <elliott> From that, Haskell would seem a billion times more natural than Forth or C
04:28:40 <elliott> So simplicity can often be a misleading concept, because it's relative.
04:28:55 <elliott> <RodgerTheGreat> OOP isn't necessary for programming per se. OOP is useful for sawing up tasks and distributing them across multiple programmers. It's a teamwork methodology.
04:29:03 <elliott> I could believe this if people did not include inheritance in OOP.
04:29:19 <pikhq> elliott: I certainly don't call inheritance mandatory for OOP.
04:29:26 <elliott> But people use inheritance in OOP.
04:29:33 <elliott> And inheritance breaks APIs.
04:29:41 <pikhq> Which can often cause pain and agony and sorrow.
04:29:50 <elliott> Any time composition can't do something and inheritance can, that is because of a design flaw somewhere.
04:30:01 <elliott> And inheritance impedes distributed teamwork with its intense coupling of code.
04:30:13 <elliott> Inheritance is a tool to break an object's interface.
04:30:31 <elliott> RodgerTheGreat: What can inheritance do that composition can't, that does not arise from a design flaw?
04:30:54 <elliott> Anyway, re tool-improperly-you-will-bleed: by that argument, assembly is perfectly OK for teamwork.
04:31:09 <elliott> The fact that it has a huge possibility for error and messing beyond API boundaries -- hey, apply improperly and you'll bleed.
04:31:46 <RodgerTheGreat> inheritance and composition are of equivalent expressive power. Lemme go fire up my turing machine.
04:32:38 <elliott> RodgerTheGreat: No. Because a subclass of class A can be used as an A, despite the fact that its implementation may break the Liskov substitution principle. (And this can be VERY tricky to get right, even if it does not seem so). (Note: Eiffel avoids this. Most people do not use Eiffel.)
04:32:51 <elliott> Also, in many languages subclasses can access data that the rest of the world can't... which is just *wrong wrong wrong*.
04:33:15 <RodgerTheGreat> I will parenthetically note that C++ is OOP in name only
04:34:03 <elliott> Paraphrase of Alan Kay: "I invented the term OOP, and I can tell you, I didn't have C++ in mind. [laughter] Not Smalltalk, either.
04:34:12 <elliott> (This is usually quoted without that last sentence; one may speculate freely on the reasons why.)
04:34:28 <elliott> (I would paste the real quote but it is impossible to find; Google only yields the incomplete versions.)
04:39:33 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | it's done, the only thing it doesn't do is annotate a paste.
04:39:36 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | ;P.
04:39:38 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | heh.
04:39:39 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | + Nick change: AntiGarlicMonste -> ais523.
04:39:41 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | its hard to see the fractals :(.
04:40:40 <optbot> elliott: what pikhq said
04:40:40 <optbot> fungot: System to take template file and packages and build bit-exact ISO from those.
04:41:18 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
04:41:31 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
04:41:41 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq_: dude, you really need to do something about your net connection
04:41:47 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
04:42:16 <pikhq_> It's my stepdad's new router. It sucks ass. And he thinks he's better at tech than I. And is paranoid.
04:42:22 <pikhq_> So I can't do anything about it at all.
04:42:46 <pikhq_> I live at home, for I am cheap.
04:42:57 <elliott> <pikhq_> It's my stepdad's new router. It sucks ass. And he thinks he's better at tech than I. And is paranoid.
04:43:58 <RodgerTheGreat> in my opinion living at home to save money is a rather egregious false economy.
04:44:20 <elliott> RodgerTheGreat: Only if you can get decent work.
04:44:26 <elliott> I'm looking at you, America.
04:44:40 <pikhq_> The money to move out isn't going to come out of thin air. And employment is hard to find ATM.
04:45:02 <RodgerTheGreat> especially if you have enough brain cells to rub together for undergrad research
04:45:24 <pikhq_> Community college, because I can't bloody well afford to do otherwise.
04:45:49 <elliott> "Well, at least I'm not going to Sgeo's."
04:46:17 <pikhq_> elliott: Not even joking, an associate's from here would be worth more than a bachelor's from there.
04:46:35 <pikhq_> IT REQUIRES MORE BUSINESS CLASSES THAN MATH CLASSES FOR GOD'S SAKE
04:46:41 <elliott> Or a Ph.D. from there. God, they'll actually do Ph.D.s, won't they.
04:57:50 -!- azaq23 has joined.
05:21:50 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | very fine... just got back from holidays..
05:22:19 <oerjan> optbot: so where did you have your holiday?
05:22:19 <optbot> oerjan: computer records.
05:28:39 -!- asiekierka has joined.
05:51:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:55:56 -!- augur has joined.
06:04:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:14:06 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:16:35 -!- asiekierka has joined.
06:23:18 <RodgerTheGreat> I am constantly baffled at the things people post online
06:23:41 <elliott> RodgerTheGreat: it's not about online. it's just that you only see it because it's online
06:24:07 <elliott> unless people regularly tell you about people 6 degrees separated from you and how they talked to this idiotic person they know
06:24:41 <elliott> the more ignorant and prejudiced, the less realising of that they are.
06:24:43 <RodgerTheGreat> it surprises me that people say stuff like that in a public forum
06:25:09 <elliott> it seems obvious that they thought their original point was totally unobjectionable, and then just tried to save face badly when their social peers reacted badly
06:25:11 <RodgerTheGreat> but you're right, it shouldn't really be that hard to believe
06:25:33 <elliott> I'd like to live in a world where such things _do_ elicit legitimate incredulity.
06:26:38 <pikhq_> I'm worried about the 5 "likes".
06:27:04 <elliott> Ehh, I'm sure "like" is applied to things people hate but lol at.
06:27:18 <Sgeo> Depends on the liker, probably
06:27:19 <elliott> (Someone else can confirm/deny this, I don't use facebook.)
06:27:20 <pikhq_> There needs to be a "Fuck you" button.
06:28:05 <elliott> Thought: emacs : unix :: facebook : the internet.
06:28:13 <elliott> "Emacs is a great OS, but I prefer Unix."
06:28:52 <elliott> 06:05:03 <oerjan> optbot: so where did you have your holiday?
06:28:52 <optbot> elliott: making this is so hard :D
06:28:52 <elliott> 06:05:03 <optbot> oerjan: computer records.
06:28:52 <elliott> 06:05:10 <oerjan> ...i see.
06:28:52 <optbot> elliott: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Defcalc
06:29:03 <elliott> oerjan: it traversed into another data structure :)
06:29:40 <olsner> oh, the horror when people start thinking facebook "is" the internet like they think google is
06:29:47 <olsner> or maybe they already have
06:30:16 <elliott> olsner: Maybe they have. Let's put it this way: facebook has all but *replaced* the Internet for some people.
06:30:22 <elliott> It literally does everything but packet switching.
06:30:26 <elliott> And this is fucking scary.
06:31:01 <elliott> (Email? Yep. IM? Yep. Usenet...sorta? Yep. Social networking? Yep. Casual games? Yep. ...)
06:34:29 <pikhq_> And yet I find myself spending maybe 10 minutes on Facebook a day.
06:34:51 <pikhq_> Only really got one to shut people up.
06:35:21 <pikhq_> Okay, well, I suppose I'm *logged in* 24/7. Logged in via Jabber and all that. :P
06:35:50 <elliott> I had one, but never ever ever used it, and then one day I noticed that occasionally people actually noticed it existed, so I deleted it.
06:36:05 <elliott> AFAICT this doesn't bother anyone because I'm boring anyway.
06:36:14 <pikhq_> Man. The Simpsons has been running for *21 freaking seasons*.
06:36:36 <pikhq_> ... And is almost exactly as old as I am.
06:37:17 <elliott> And almost as unfunny HAHAAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAhem.
06:37:36 <pikhq_> elliott: For the first, oh, 9 seasons, it was brilliant.
06:38:28 <oerjan> we must conclude that pikhq_ was hilarious as a child.
06:38:57 <elliott> (picking on innocents//=my favourite pasttime)
06:39:24 <pikhq_> ... If The Simpsons ends, do I die?
06:39:24 -!- augur has joined.
06:39:44 <olsner> pikhq_: it shall be the end of you
06:39:52 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:39:53 <elliott> It is, after all, not EXACTLY as old as you.
06:39:57 -!- augur has joined.
06:40:02 <elliott> pikhq_: BETTER GIVE MONEY TO RUPERT MURDOCH.
06:40:26 <pikhq_> So, if I can just make The Simpsons about as likely to end as, say, Superman comics, I'll be immortal?
06:40:31 <oerjan> hm death, or money to murdoch. decisions, decisions.
06:41:06 <oerjan> olsner, always with his win-win options.
06:41:47 <pikhq_> Step one will have to be death to Murdoch. If The Simpsons gets genuinely popular again, rather than carrying on on inertia, then it's fucked with Murdoch at the helm.
06:42:20 <elliott> pikhq_: note that as the Simpsons gets shittier, so will you.
06:42:38 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Quit: RodgerTheGreat).
06:42:38 <elliott> if "The Simpsons" gets televised weekly and it's just a pile of sludge steaming for half an hour... that's what you will be.
06:42:57 <pikhq_> elliott: Which, again, is why I must bring death to Murdoch.
06:43:06 <elliott> pikhq_: note that matt groening is still mortal.
06:43:38 <pikhq_> Okay, then I'll have to make Groening immortal somehow.
06:43:41 <elliott> pikhq_: (his life depends on, believe it or not, Family Guy.)
06:43:49 <elliott> you must do a great many terrible things to stay alive.
06:44:17 <elliott> pikhq_: and Seth MacFarlane depends on goatse.
06:44:29 <pikhq_> Dammit, Seth MacFarlane is immortal!
06:44:35 <oerjan> wait i'm pretty sure matt groening is older than family guy
06:44:55 <elliott> matt groening will die [the difference] before family guy ends.
06:45:09 <pikhq_> Which would also suggest Family Guy will never end, so Groening is immortal.
06:45:33 <pikhq_> elliott: Memes do not die.
06:45:33 <elliott> That is not dead which can eternal lie,
06:45:42 <elliott> And with strange aeons, even Seth MacFarlane can get sick of the sound of his own voice.
06:45:45 <wareya> Did someone say memes?
06:45:53 <oerjan> that guy who was born the same day as mickey mouse truly has it made.
06:46:18 <pikhq_> oerjan: Oh, dear God, he will probably outlast the heat death of the Universe.
06:46:31 <elliott> there will only be mickey mouse.
06:46:45 <elliott> ...for his copyright to expire
06:46:50 <oerjan> until his copyright _finally_ expi...dammit
06:47:08 <pikhq_> And then he said, let there be light. And there was light, and he saw that it was good.
06:47:18 <oerjan> i guess it's not the first time we've done that meme
06:47:37 <pikhq_> After all, Mickey Mouse will need humans around to extend copyright.
06:47:40 <elliott> pikhq_: I approve of this Mickeymouseology.
06:51:17 <wareya> I'll become a mickeymousetian if you set up the mickeymousefunhouse.
06:52:20 <elliott> That sounds slightly paedophilic.
06:52:58 <pikhq_> Saint Pedobear approves.
06:53:34 <elliott> ok, i need to figure out how to enable bochs' debugger. this is ridiculous.
06:54:33 <pikhq_> SANCTVS PAEDOBARIVS, you mean.
06:54:49 <oerjan> pikhq_: i don't think church latin is that capital intensive
06:54:53 * pikhq_ disbelieves in lower-case Latin
06:55:27 <pikhq_> Church Latin is blasphemy.
06:55:45 <elliott> so is molestation, doesn't stop 'em!
06:56:12 <oerjan> i'm not sure the bible outlaws molestation anywhere
06:56:14 <wareya> I have the formation of the last word wrong
06:56:30 <pikhq_> oerjan: It outlaws sexual activity outside of marriage.
06:56:41 <wareya> I passed latin 1 with a 60. That's how good at it I was.
06:56:52 <pikhq_> Marriage at birth is entirely permissible, however.
06:56:55 <oerjan> as long as it wasn't latin 60 with a 1
06:57:25 <pikhq_> Also, the Catholic church mandates celibacy in its clergy.
06:57:26 <oerjan> (void in regions where lower characters are better)
06:58:51 <oerjan> wareya: i think OMNIA is perfectly appropriate plural neuter accusative
06:59:15 <oerjan> whether that is the form you intended, i cannot say
07:00:02 <wareya> pikhq_: I learned church latin :<
07:00:33 <pikhq_> wareya: That's about as valid as learning txt nglsh.
07:00:38 <elliott> oerjan: that's good. it's funny!1
07:00:54 <elliott> http://www.mezzacotta.net/ads/finland.png
07:01:00 * pikhq_ especially "loves" the bit where they pronounce Latin using Italian pronunciation rules.
07:01:24 <elliott> (relevant fodder for oerjan)
07:02:27 <oerjan> ï hävë nö ïdëä whät ÿöü ärë tälkïng äböüt
07:03:45 <pikhq_> Ï ẗöö ẅöüld lïkë ẗö knöẅ ẗḧäẗ.
07:06:58 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
07:17:34 -!- asiekierka has joined.
07:26:40 <Ilari> APNIC Depletion predicted 3rd June (Huston). I recall when 3rd June was predicted APNIC deplation date.
07:26:47 <Ilari> *IANA depletion date.
07:32:18 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
07:35:12 -!- azaq23 has joined.
07:35:13 <elliott> olsner: its built in debugger flags syntax error with no info on almost any input, and the inputs that do work don't give me anything helpful like, say, the line _my_ code executed, not the bios
07:35:25 <elliott> (the stack trace was just a bunch of seemingly-random hexs, not related to my program locations.)
07:35:39 <elliott> also even though i specify -q it still brings up a menu when it starts :)
07:36:59 <olsner> yes, it's very very simple, the debugger
07:37:06 -!- azaq23 has quit (Client Quit).
07:37:13 <olsner> simple in the retarded sense, I guess
07:38:04 <olsner> I still find it more useful than no debugger, and I've decided not to complain about crappy debuggers but be happy about the luxury of a debugger even existing
07:40:06 <elliott> olsner: I would, except I literally can't figure out how to do the simplest task
07:40:42 <olsner> hmm, that could just be you being stupid though
07:53:07 <pikhq_> ... *What the hell George Lucas*.
07:53:20 <pikhq_> Y'know the cantina scene in "A New Hope"?
07:53:29 <pikhq_> That genre of music, in-universe, is called "jizz".
07:53:37 <pikhq_> I am *not* fucking kidding.
07:54:11 <olsner> next time you see it, think of it as George Lucas jizzing in your living room
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:00:34 <pikhq_> And it's *still* less embarrassing than the Holiday Special.
08:03:15 <pikhq_> Y'know it's bad when it makes its actors start doing crack.
08:03:33 <pikhq_> Erm, cocaine. Not crack cocaine.
08:07:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
08:07:24 <elliott> hello Phantom_Hoover, i've not slept again, prepare for criticism
08:28:17 -!- wareya_ has joined.
08:30:48 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
08:34:36 <fizzie> Database terminology is so colorful: "If the primary server fails and then immediately restarts, you must have a mechanism for informing it that it is no longer the primary. This is sometimes known as STONITH (Shoot the Other Node In The Head), which is necessary to avoid situations where both systems think they are the primary, which will lead to confusion and ultimately data loss."
08:39:25 <elliott> do tracks/sectors/heads start from 0 or 1
08:44:34 -!- azaq23 has joined.
08:45:56 <fizzie> I think the cylinder and head values are 0-based, but the sector count starts from 1.
08:46:12 <fizzie> The table at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_Block_Addressing#CHS_conversion seems to agree.
08:49:29 <fizzie> Well, you *could* use the LBA version -- http://www.ctyme.com/intr/rb-0708.htm -- though constructing that data structure for the address would probably cost more bytes.
08:49:38 <fizzie> What do you need disk reading for?
08:50:47 <elliott> fizzie: I just want something that loads some kilobytes of kernel and jumps to it. It seems to be working.
08:50:55 <elliott> (Decided the best break from a Forth bootsector is a Forth OS.)
08:51:09 <elliott> It even makes a nice little | / - \ spinner while it loads, too!
08:51:18 <elliott> And on real hardware you might even see that for half a second!
08:51:35 <fizzie> Got tired of sticking everything into 510 bytes, I see.
08:52:30 <elliott> fizzie: it can be... frustrating
08:52:55 <elliott> 45 0000003D 64C70600007C0F mov word [fs:0], vgachar('|')
08:53:00 <elliott> That instruction; it is uncomfortably long.
08:54:25 * elliott turns on a20 using the bios, because does anything NOT support that?
08:54:52 <fizzie> Segment override prefix (64h), opcode (C7h), modrm byte for operand (06h), 16-bit offset (0000h) and data (7C0Fh)... they do add up.
08:55:53 <fizzie> If you happened to have bx or si or di 0 at that point, "mov word [fs:di], ..." would be shorter. But I guess they most likely hold real values.
08:57:15 <fizzie> On MIPS you could use r0, the best register of them all. (It's hardwired to have the value 0.)
08:58:49 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
09:00:24 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
09:00:46 <fizzie> IIRC the assembler pseudo-op "li r8, 0x1234" is internally encoded as "ori r8, r0, 0x1234" or some such.
09:01:05 <elliott> <fizzie> If you happened to have bx or si or di 0 at that point, "mov word [fs:di], ..." would be shorter. But I guess they most likely hold real values.
09:01:17 <elliott> I think si/di are free, it's just a boot sector. But it's tiny, so I don't really care that much :P
09:01:31 <elliott> Can we get a register for every word?
09:21:07 <oklopol> elliott: do you know japanese yet
09:21:25 <elliott> oklopol: no, been a bit busy not sleeping and such, i plan to figure out how to operate amazon with no cognition today
09:21:37 <elliott> i suppose that would let me purchase book things that could be helpful
09:21:38 -!- elliott has left (?).
09:21:40 -!- elliott has joined.
09:21:45 <elliott> why do keys do things when you press them
09:23:58 <elliott> so what are the things, oklopol.
09:28:05 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Reboot).
09:32:15 -!- asiekierka has joined.
09:32:39 <oklopol> except learning japanese, and reading a paper
09:33:10 <oklopol> i have an exam on monday tho so will have to work a few hours at some point
09:34:37 <elliott> erm oh right this channel exists?
09:34:49 <oklopol> and i'm asking you what the things is
09:34:53 <elliott> i haven't had much sleep. in fact, any
09:34:57 <elliott> 12:45:10 <fizzie> Out of curiosity, what should happen if a Funge-98 IP were to hit the > on the line ";>#;"? (Quotes not part of the line, obviously.)
09:35:18 <elliott> now does # skip over ; or not, lemme check funge
09:35:36 <elliott> ok so the > goes onto the #
09:35:39 <elliott> then that goes on to the ;
09:35:41 <elliott> which wraps around to the ;
09:36:11 <elliott> oklopol: _not_ explicitly wrapping
09:36:20 <elliott> if you have "a#" on a line, it goes to a, because # moves to the space to the right of it
09:36:56 <elliott> the # moves us into the _space_
09:38:47 <elliott> 23:36:20 <AnMaster> ais523, there?
09:38:48 <elliott> 23:36:29 <AnMaster> ais523, seems c-intercal was added to portage(!)
09:38:48 <elliott> wonder how hideously out of date it is now
09:38:53 <elliott> oklopol: logreading, i am also logreading
09:39:04 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
09:40:12 <elliott> oklopol: so any plans for december?
09:41:43 <elliott> oklopol is all...what's december, right now
09:47:11 <Phantom_Hoover> I think someone on RW is claiming to have worked out how to factorise numbers very quickly.
09:47:26 <elliott> 22:29:30 <oklocod> GregorR: computers are turing complete, and 0..2^64-1 is an infinite set
09:47:26 <elliott> 22:29:57 <GregorR> By what stretch of the imagination is 0..2^64-1 an infinite set?
09:47:27 <elliott> 22:30:15 <oklocod> GregorR: it's reeeeeally big
09:47:43 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Saloon_bar#Friday_conundrum
09:48:03 <Phantom_Hoover> He doesn't actually give any evidence or even any indication how fast it is, though.
09:48:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Uhh, that's a joke/hypothetical.
09:48:20 <elliott> I refuse to provide any more justification for this obvious fact than "Adrian Chen".
09:49:01 <elliott> Additional evidence: Nobody actually asks actual dilemma-related questions in that way.
09:50:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Who blocked pi.
09:51:02 <elliott> Also this SusanG person talks way too much.
09:51:08 <elliott> And has an irritatingly non-textual signature.
09:51:15 <Phantom_Hoover> No idea; it's almost certainly one of RW's many frivolous blocks.
09:51:51 <elliott> "I won't comment on any LQT page. No matter how much I care about the subject. I think it's terrible as it stands."
09:51:55 <elliott> Well, at least there's that.
09:52:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://rationalwiki.org/w/images/3/3b/Blue2pwnage.png
09:52:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ENJOY YOUR BLOCK
09:53:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I also like how nobody responded to that factoring thing with an even vaguely ethical response.
09:53:35 <elliott> Well, I mean at the top level.
09:53:36 <elliott> 1) Tell me. 2) Exploit it for every penny you can. DeltaStarSenior SysopSpeciationspeed! 15:57, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
09:53:46 <elliott> OK, so there's exactly one.
09:54:50 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3455095/Extreme-supermoon-said-to-set-Earth-up-for-weather-chaos.html
09:55:01 <elliott> anyway, Phantom_Hoover sucks, i'm coding more os
09:55:16 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Some amateur scientists warn it could trigger extreme conditions all over the world, from earthquakes to tsunamis.]]
09:55:18 <elliott> "Some amateur scientists warn it could trigger extreme conditions all over the world, from earthquakes to tsunamis."
09:55:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It will cause them RETROACTIVELY
09:55:39 <elliott> THE MOON IS MAGIC AND DEFIES TIME.
09:55:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Published: 09 Mar 2011"
09:55:56 <elliott> THE SUN: Ahead of the curve.
09:56:00 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Oh Dear. Looks like John Kettley should have listened to his physics teacher. Quakes rock Japan news just in. Gravitational force increases inversely by the square of the distance. Half the distance, and you quadruple the force between those two objects. Of course the moon can cause earthquakes and tsunamis!! The force between earth and the moon can move billions of tons of water, and the earth's mantle too!!]]
09:56:20 <elliott> "Coo another excuse for them to hike petrol prices up, they don't need decent excuses you know."
09:56:30 <elliott> "if it gets too close the PM will invent a tax for us looking at it"
09:56:43 <elliott> "Tell the moon not to stop too close as it might get a parking ticket"
09:56:46 <elliott> My god, the right wing, it hurts.
09:57:11 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Of course a planet moving closer to Earth can cause an earth quake, what would a weather man know.
09:57:11 <Phantom_Hoover> They only get it right now because of satellite coverage, I can predict my own weather by watching live satellite imagery.]]
09:57:13 <elliott> "oh no, stock pile endless cans of spam, panic buy bread and milk, nail crooked bits of wood across the doors and windows to keep out the mutant zombies, WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE.........
09:57:14 <elliott> or maybe nothing at all will happen, and I can get on and watch Emmerdale..."
09:57:14 <elliott> Stockpiling food for fear of zombies, and watching Emmerdale: two equally bad situations.
09:57:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sarcasm, I *think*.
09:57:48 <elliott> Anyway, laugh at my hee-larious Emmerdale quip.
09:58:07 <elliott> "LOL the scientists say it's moving several metres a year away from us, and now they say it's the closest in 18 years? okay then, the scary thing is, that a repeat of the 2004 tsunami could happen again."
09:58:17 <elliott> "The last time Haleys comet passed by the Earth it rendered me impotent for years,luckily Viagra fixed it and now the wife is over the moon !."
09:58:38 <elliott> "Well I blame the Government LOL!" "I blame immigrants." ;; first one probably joke, second one joke
09:58:45 <elliott> "Well personally I blame the "Global warming folks". Even George Bush knew they were nutters and now they have caused the moon to collide with Mars......Oops, sorry! I mean Earth. What are we to do? I have the answer. Let's put up some more of those wind-turbines. Perhaps we can blow it of course at the last minute.
09:58:45 <elliott> I hope you will excuse me now as I have to return to the real world."
09:59:20 <elliott> "The moons gravity does have an effect on magma under the earth, just like the effect on water it is being pulled, therefore one of a possible number of causes of earth quakes."
09:59:33 <elliott> "we will get taxed for increased flood risks"
09:59:37 <elliott> "could we be taxed for this? ...like is it our fault in any way"
09:59:51 <elliott> "The Liberals will try and conjur another tax out of this." ;; TAXES
09:59:56 <oklopol> "<elliott> oklopol: so any plans for december?" no
10:00:00 <elliott> "They've missed an oppotunity to blame it on global warming there" ;; CLIMATE CHANGE
10:00:23 <elliott> "What's the good news, well if it happens as stated, there is nothing we can do about it, we will probably be told it is down to global warming, but, no matter what happens to this world, it' all down to NATURE, only nature will decide what will or will not happen, those who keep shouting that humans are causing the CO2 causing Global Warming are talking rubbish, one Volcanic eruption covers the world in many gases, including CO2, when Krakatoa e
10:00:23 <elliott> xploded early in the 1800s, according to records, some of those gases were still in the atmosphere in 1960, since then we have had many volcanic eruptions, Iceland, Hawaii, and the ring of fire, only nature will decide in most cases whether we live or die." ;; WHAT
10:00:55 <elliott> "It probably also means that people will start going mental. The human body is made up of 70% water after all..." ;; NO, JUST NO
10:01:23 <elliott> "Maxnex.. No green tax but if its too close then It will be subject to Londons congestion charge!" ;; FFF
10:01:35 <elliott> It is a wonder the government or the EUC has not asked the tax payers for an additional "green" tax on this.
10:01:44 <elliott> shut up about taxes and global warming you shitpots
10:01:47 <Phantom_Hoover> It's at times like this you wonder how anyone with the slightest hint of rationality doesn't go around punching people.
10:01:57 <elliott> good question, right now it's because i'm tired
10:02:16 <elliott> oklopol: you know. that thing.
10:02:56 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/g1r53/it_is_possible_to_translate_any_turing_machine/
10:03:30 <elliott> "Something tells me that Turing would have been very fond of Wang had he lived into the 1960's..."
10:03:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Which is the top comment for you?
10:03:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Try setting the sorting to best, it's quite good.
10:03:55 <elliott> Although RANDALL MUNROE made it so it sucks.
10:04:04 <elliott> "Doesn't that involve solving the halting problem? Isn't that impossible?" ;; hey, i've lost the ability to rage at this
10:04:16 <elliott> "Linked page says “[the halting problem] is highly undecidable” (emphasis mine). Can anyone explain to me what highly means, in that context? Isn’t a problem either decidable or undecidable?" IT'S LIQUIDS!!!
10:04:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, that's just a misunderstanding and jesus I really need to get going.
10:04:37 <elliott> get going for what, DEATH??
10:04:40 <elliott> we all get going for death.
10:05:16 <elliott> ojooojoijojiwerwerwerefwefwefwefjooijoijoifefwefewwefwewefojiijjiooijwfewefiojojiwefweiojjiwefewfjiojiowefwefjoiowefoijoiweffweojiojiwfewfejiowefojiwefojiwfeoijojiwfewefojioijwefioi
10:05:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ohgod]h;'juklo\p[p]\
10:05:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/g0d5g/breaking_news_html5css3_is_turing_complete/c1ker31
10:06:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: fun game: try and find any meaning in this comment
10:06:16 <elliott> (Cook is the one who proved /rule 110/ TC.)
10:06:24 <elliott> (I almost googled "Cook html css turing".)
10:07:25 <Phantom_Hoover> So do I continue goading him into saying "I daresay I know more about this than ais" and then pounce?
10:07:46 <elliott> that's a childish waste of time, even i've abandoned that alley since he didn't call me out on it :)
10:08:00 <elliott> i'd just stop bothering, i've totally got it covered by way of him ignoring me
10:08:19 <oklopol> "<elliott> oklopol: Oh. So you lied." <<< i did?
10:12:20 <oklopol> i suppose i didn't make it a plan, but assumed i'll just happen to do it anyway?
10:12:40 <elliott> oklopol: it was a plan. and for it to work, you have to remember.
10:12:52 <oklopol> to rape you so you won't win the 50 pounds?
10:13:23 <oklopol> to... kill you so you won't win the 50 pounds?
10:13:56 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
10:14:09 <elliott> oklopol: you will remember, on the day. and it will be glorious.
10:16:15 <elliott> holy shit qbasic has a repl
10:16:18 <elliott> why did fizzie never tell me.
10:16:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:23:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
10:30:09 <Phantom_Hoover> [[misinformation about drugs kills infinitely more people than drugs themselves.]]
10:31:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: When that's in your opening line what :P
10:31:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I severely question the sensibility of the rest of the essay.
10:35:15 -!- azaq23 has joined.
10:44:26 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:44:30 -!- elliott_ has joined.
10:44:50 -!- elliott_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:44:55 -!- elliott has joined.
11:04:34 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:17:33 -!- elliott has joined.
11:20:51 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
11:21:06 -!- pikhq has joined.
11:21:39 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | Anywho, I actually wanted an ereader /primarily/ for reading. For anything else it wouldn't be worthwhile..
11:23:49 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
11:25:56 -!- asiekierka has joined.
11:38:10 -!- FireFly has joined.
11:48:01 -!- aloril has joined.
11:52:39 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
11:55:34 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:03:00 -!- elliott has joined.
12:09:32 -!- cheater00 has joined.
12:11:22 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
12:12:21 -!- cheater99 has joined.
12:14:14 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
12:15:15 -!- aloril has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:24:54 -!- aloril has joined.
12:34:53 <elliott> "This is my husband. His name is the Berlin Wall and he was born on August 13, 1961. I expect you've heard of him; he is quite a celebrity. He lives in Berlin.
12:34:55 <elliott> I used to work in a pharmacy. Now I own a museum. My husband's job was to divide East and West Berlin. He is retired now."
12:35:37 <elliott> "It was very much a long distance romance as neither of us likes to travel."
12:38:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: THESE THINGS ARE NOT THINGS THAT I AM MAKING UP
12:39:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: She changed her last name to Berliner-Mauer (Berlin Wall) after getting married to it.
12:39:56 <elliott> (http://www.berlinermauer.se/)
12:40:16 <elliott> "Animism is the belief that inanimate objects are sentient beings, i.e. they have intelligence, feelings, and are able to communicate. Animism is the foundation of objectum-sexuality. My belief in Animism is that artifacts (objects) have the same level of awareness as human beings. I don’t see them as superior beings, which is claimed in some encyclopedias and other literature. That I do NOT believe in. I see artifacts as equal to human beings,
12:40:36 <elliott> "We even made it through the terrible disaster of November 9, 1989, when my husband was subjected to frenzied attacks by a mob."
12:40:40 <elliott> This is the best thing ever.
12:40:57 <elliott> "The Berlin Wall - Brandenburger Tor - 1989 and this will be the ONLY such picture on my site. I hate to see this disaster."
12:48:51 -!- variable has joined.
12:50:32 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
12:52:25 -!- MigoMipo__ has joined.
12:53:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
12:54:11 <cheater99> breaking news: pokemon creator died in earthquake
12:56:19 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
12:56:30 -!- impomatic has joined.
12:57:19 <impomatic> Elliott: any progress on the Forth?
12:57:55 <elliott> impomatic: Yes, I'm taking a break from it to write an OS with significantly more than 510 bytes to it :-)
12:58:06 <elliott> But at least I think I know how I'd do a compiler compactly with quite some space left over.
13:01:06 <elliott> impomatic: Any progress with yours?
13:02:28 <impomatic> No, I've been ill so I've had a rough week. Planning to start again on Monday.
13:04:26 <elliott> Ah, ok. Hope you're feeling better soon etc.
13:04:32 <impomatic> My MSP430 devboard hasn't arrived yet anyway. I've bought another couple of devboards too. It's amazing how many are under £10 on eBay.
13:04:55 <elliott> That interpreter word you wrote -- how do you plan to actually execute it? Running it through the compiler (written in asm)?
13:05:03 <impomatic> elliott: it's only toothache :-) At least that's what my girlfriend tells me.
13:05:24 <elliott> Now I just have to think of the worst possible thing a toothache could be.
13:05:40 <elliott> Unless I'm seriously mistaken, toothaches can't be cancerous, so logic dictates that you're probably fine.
13:06:30 <impomatic> It is toothache, but with a jaw infection. I tried about a dozen different things but nothing killed the pain :-(
13:07:02 <elliott> I bet you're feeling better already.
13:07:13 <Phantom_Hoover> impomatic, I swear I typed that before it turned out that was basically what you have.
13:07:51 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
13:08:16 <impomatic> Yes feeling better. Most of the week I was trying to sleep alway the pain. Now I'm on a couple of antibiotics and painkillers it's not so bad :-)
13:09:13 -!- sebbu has joined.
13:09:13 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
13:09:13 -!- sebbu has joined.
13:11:31 <Phantom_Hoover> impomatic, but you could have died the death of TUTANKHAMEN!
13:14:16 <impomatic> Thankfully I didn't. I still have work to do.
13:14:44 -!- MigoMipo__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:16:14 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
13:37:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:09:17 -!- cpressey has joined.
14:10:04 <cpressey> i'm starting to think all programming language criticism boils down to "these two things should be next to each other, but aren't"
14:11:00 <cpressey> the problem of course is that there are always multiple ways to sensible co-locate things
14:12:11 <cpressey> that sort of leads to the idea of storing the program in a database, and reading/editing it under various views
14:12:56 <elliott> cpressey: like TUNES to the max
14:13:08 <elliott> TUNES stores all the objects in fancy databases :P
14:14:18 <cpressey> exactly -- it'll never work ;)
14:15:10 <cpressey> guido's talking about stuff, something about threads and callbacks, i'm not paying attention
14:15:25 <elliott> I think I get to swat people for that.
14:15:46 <cpressey> tunes is a useful, not existent, system
14:16:33 <elliott> well hey, @ matches up with TUNES in almost every aspect in which TUNES has a solid vision, so clearly that's doomed too
14:16:44 -!- iconmaster has joined.
14:16:58 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, what do you mean by "these two things should be beside each other"?
14:17:27 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: for some two things x and y
14:18:47 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: program more. you'll figure it out
14:21:29 <cpressey> by "program" i mean, make changes to >20KLoc programs
14:21:50 <cpressey> writing little elegant programs in scheme doesn't count
14:23:11 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
14:23:14 <elliott> cpressey: Making changes to >20 kloc programs doesn't sound like my idea of fun.
14:23:24 <elliott> (Unless they're written in Haskell maybe.)
14:23:37 <elliott> (But then it's probably a nuclear reactor if it's that long, and I don't want to touch one of them.)
14:23:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:23:59 -!- copumpkin has joined.
14:25:32 <cpressey> thus the programming language criticism
14:28:36 <elliott> I think I'd agree if you said that shallow criticism came down to that. At least I don't think you can argue asm vs. Haskell based on things being beside.
14:30:09 -!- elliott_ has joined.
14:30:09 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:30:13 <cpressey> i'm not sure they aren't just more abstract "things" that you want beside in that case. but i haven't thought about it much
14:30:33 <cpressey> http://us.pycon.org/2011/schedule/presentations/90/ looks somewhat interesting
14:31:39 <elliott_> cpressey: In entirely the wrong way, perhaps.
14:31:52 <elliott_> "This is a good thing! Only the best ideas survive the python-dev gauntlet!"
14:31:56 <elliott_> Or the lowest-common-denominator ones.
14:32:37 <oklopol> that looks like it could be interesting, because they are actually listing facts
14:32:56 <cpressey> oh, well obviously i wouldn't be going to it to agree with that message. rather, to get a look into their thought/selection process.
14:33:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:33:32 <cpressey> "they rejected *that*? for *that* reason? interesting..."
14:33:57 <elliott_> cpressey: Well hey, Guido removed fold because "it confuses me and for loops are better".
14:34:01 <elliott_> At the very least it will be entertaining.
14:34:25 <elliott_> (I still can't believe he didn't know that TCO != TRE.)
14:35:20 <cpressey> i don't know what those mean either
14:35:50 <oklopol> total cost of ownership and thyroid response element
14:35:55 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
14:36:10 <elliott_> tail-call optimisation and tail recursion elimination
14:36:16 <elliott_> acronyms don't matter, knowing that the latter != the former does
14:36:26 <elliott_> guido thought that TCO was useless because "you can just use a for loop"
14:36:30 <elliott_> which is true for TRE only, ofc
14:36:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
14:37:57 <oklopol> that's a pretty ridiculous argument, yes
14:38:13 <oklopol> i'm not sure it's because he's confusing the terms though
14:38:25 <elliott_> oklopol: in the next post he was like
14:38:32 <elliott_> "o, i see, so tco is where you do MUTUAL things
14:38:35 <elliott_> [shows example of mutual recursion]
14:38:43 <elliott_> i was skooled on this, didn't know, lol, not that i'm gonna change my mind"
14:40:06 <oklopol> Producing such code instead of a standard call sequence is called tail call elimination, or tail call optimization.
14:40:15 <oklopol> ignore that, was a bit too hasty
14:40:18 -!- asiekierka has joined.
14:40:55 <oklopol> tail recursion elimination can't really be misunderstood, but tail call optimization sounds a bit more ambiguous
14:42:04 <elliott_> oklopol: i like r5rs' solution to this, just says "when you do tail calls, the implementation has to behave exactly like it has an infinite stack" :D
14:42:27 <elliott_> also its approach to memory management is "Scheme is defined assuming infinite memory, and objects are never freed, you can optimise that if you want tho"
14:43:41 <oklopol> i assume that's always the case in high-level languages? erm, except python. and probably others
14:44:11 <elliott_> python doesn't even have a spec :P
14:44:19 <elliott_> i dunno about haskell, i think it's too abstract to even talk about memory ;D
14:44:36 <elliott_> but r5rs' wording is a bit more blunt about it than i would expect most others to be
14:45:14 <oklopol> we have a course on ml and hol soon btw. if you still care about that stuff.
14:45:25 <oklopol> if you care, that may be almost interesting news :)
14:45:37 <elliott_> ml doesn't really have much to do with hol, but yeah sure
14:45:39 <oklopol> because then i'll learn to love it
14:45:49 <oklopol> well you can use hol to prove ml programs correct
14:45:49 <elliott_> but it's a theorem prover, so yeah
14:46:19 <elliott_> ML's a decent language, it has some warts and it's not as overall coherent as Haskell, but some parts are nicer.
14:46:26 <oklopol> but yeah maybe i should've said just hol
14:46:27 <elliott_> hol is cool because every theorem prover is cool :)
14:50:07 <oklopol> i'm so gonna prove that something's true
14:51:24 <elliott_> oklopol: i prefer proving things that are false.
14:52:11 <oklopol> you have an eye for them challenges right
15:04:34 <oklopol> them challenges being the provings of them false things
15:05:58 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
15:06:13 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
15:29:46 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
15:30:28 -!- copumpkin has joined.
15:59:14 <elliott_> Delivery to the following recipient has been delayed:
15:59:15 <elliott_> Message will be retried for 2 more day(s)
16:05:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:05:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host).
16:05:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:07:33 -!- Zuu_ has joined.
16:07:35 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:08:19 -!- Zuu_ has changed nick to Zuu.
16:22:44 <elliott_> "Lady Gaga's approach to clothing seems like hacking to me." --rms
16:22:50 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined.
16:25:38 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
16:26:06 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
16:29:43 -!- Behold has joined.
16:31:28 -!- cheater- has joined.
16:31:43 -!- iconmaster has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:33:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
16:33:07 -!- iconmaster has joined.
16:35:12 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:05:06 -!- asiekierka has joined.
17:12:53 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott.
17:12:55 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
17:12:55 -!- elliott has joined.
17:16:20 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:17:37 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:19:08 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
17:21:28 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | max(X, Y) -> Y..
17:23:33 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | ^show cho.
17:23:35 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | For programming or not, there is many things discussed in this channel.
17:31:52 <oklopol> have you ever lived next to a microwave and a fridge? it's awesome
17:38:13 <oklopol> i also live on top of an armchair, but i that's probably not at all uncommon
17:40:02 <pikhq_> It's a bit more problematic living next to a 48" TV in addition to that.
17:40:07 <pikhq_> And several game consoles.
17:40:11 <pikhq_> In the space of a dorm room.
17:41:11 <elliott> just put the tv on the floor and walk on it PROBLEM SOLVED???
17:43:12 -!- cpressey has joined.
17:43:30 <cpressey> indeed there is many things discussed here
17:45:36 <cpressey> this environment is making me want to design a production language & that makes me sad
17:46:32 <cpressey> at least it's not making me want to build a python library, upload it to pypi, and promote it shamelessly
17:47:07 <cpressey> well it sort of is but that's easier to deal with
17:47:35 <elliott> cpressey: make a binding to haskell, it'll annoy EVERYONE!
17:49:00 <elliott> cpressey: i don't know, but it'll upset the pythonistas
17:49:37 <elliott> I guess something that lets you write haskell.run_io(haskell.eval("putStrLn").call(Thunk(lambda: haskell.make_string("Hello, world!"))))
17:51:56 <cpressey> i don't understand how people think
17:53:24 <cpressey> "The goal of the project: [...] 3. Not a goal per se, but I wanted [...]
17:53:31 <cpressey> if you wanted it, it was a goal
17:54:33 <elliott> cpressey: now we're all stuck in a quote.
17:55:58 <cpressey> now it's a misquote and *I'm* buggin'
17:57:25 <cpressey> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/Python/2.5 <-- Python is a package for Python.
17:58:01 <iconmaster> ( Quotes are the least of your problems.
17:58:06 <elliott> cpressey: I like how it explains Python in depth.
17:58:18 <elliott> cpressey: if you liked Python, why not try Python, an interpreted, interactive, object-oriented programming language [...]
17:59:15 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `}'
18:00:38 <elliott> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
18:02:28 <elliott> feather isn't done yet, you fool!
18:05:41 <iconmaster> We need a language where all parens must be unmatched. This would make annoying-looking code.
18:07:31 <iconmaster> Once I make the language, I will paste programs here and wreck unprecedented havoc.
18:10:33 <iconmaster> []{}<>() would be 8 commands, so ] would be a good BF variant... but i'm going for something more original.
18:13:10 <cpressey> ok, apparently being a pythonista causes you to forget that '**' is a workaround for environments where you are not able to depict an actual superscript.
18:13:17 <cpressey> slides are not such an environmen
18:15:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
18:18:08 <cpressey> so, a talk on continuous deployment which didn't really address any of the hard issues about continuous deployment
18:18:33 <cpressey> "deploy to a few machines first in case theres a regression" was about it
18:18:41 <elliott> cpressey: continuous deployment and continuous integration sound like they should be much better concepts than they are
18:18:51 <elliott> I'm thinking every single fraction of a diff is integrated and deployed
18:18:52 <cpressey> oh yeah, neither is actually continuous
18:18:58 <elliott> even if you only change one character
18:19:06 <elliott> it ends up integrating half-a-character change
18:19:10 <elliott> it would be beautiful and make no sense.
18:19:12 <cpressey> "frequent integration" doesn't sound sexy enough
18:19:35 <cpressey> yes, that... is... beautiful nonsense
18:19:46 <oklopol> "<elliott> Sorta kinda like nopol :P" toi has that ({} thing
18:20:06 <elliott> cpressey: yes. i eagerly await your esolang based on the noise.
18:20:32 <olsner> eugh, mistranslated prepositions... "waiting on a friend"
18:20:43 <elliott> olsner: um that sounds ~right to me
18:21:13 <olsner> elliott: really? isn't waiting "on" people what a waiter does?
18:21:36 <elliott> but you can definitely wait on an event and/or person
18:21:36 <olsner> and you'd generally be more likely to wait *for* a friend
18:21:48 <oklopol> waiting on your friend means you're on top of your friend, waiting for something
18:22:10 <olsner> oh, didn't know 'on' worked like that too
18:22:14 <olsner> don't think I've seen that
18:22:50 <oklopol> yes, "on" can mean "on" sometimes
18:22:59 <elliott> <olsner> and you'd generally be more likely to wait *for* a friend
18:23:06 <oklopol> erm what? i'm certainly not wrong
18:23:08 <elliott> "oh, yeah, i have a commit to do that, but I'm waiting on dfgjiodfg to approve it"
18:23:25 <elliott> oklopol: well. yes it's technically correct, it could mean that. no, nobody has ever, or will ever, say that and mean that :)
18:24:20 <oklopol> well after saying "on top of a friend" a few hundred times, it gets kinda annoying.
18:25:19 <oklopol> "are you waiting on a table or a shelf btw?" "neither, actually, i'm waiting on a friend"
18:28:03 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:29:29 <oklopol> also if you can "cheer someone on", in a race, you can naturally also "wait someone on" in a race, waiting can be encouraging
18:29:39 <oklopol> but i'm not sure wait on a friend is very natural then
18:30:13 <elliott> pikhq_: should I even bother getting rtk3, or should I just buy rtk1 and rtk3 later if I feel the need?
18:30:15 <oklopol> "why are you waiting?" "my friend is running a marathon, so we're all waiting him on" "oh, waiting on a friend i see, i'll join ya"
18:30:57 <oklopol> i should write an english a learn it book
18:32:27 <pikhq_> elliott: RTK3 isn't particularly necessary.
18:32:55 <elliott> pikhq_: Yah, but I save on shipping if I buy it now, so if I'm *likely* to find it useful, I'd like to buy it now ...
18:33:15 <pikhq_> By the time you're done with RTK1, you'll be automatically decomposing kanji and memorising them that way, so it's not like you'll be using it for anything more than a list of kanji Heisig felt were important.
18:33:35 <oklopol> pikhq_: should i maybe buy a golden cape for when i become the king of the universe?
18:33:54 <pikhq_> oklopol: Only iridium!
18:34:18 <oklopol> alright. i'm just wondering since i'm buying a pizza and it's easier to buy those two together than to go to the shop twice
18:34:32 <elliott> pikhq_: How long will it take me to be done with RTK1 anyway? :-P That is, define "done".
18:34:47 <elliott> If "done" by your definition = a few weeks, I'd prefer to get RTK3 now. If it's more like a month or two by your definition, I'll get it later.
18:35:00 <oklopol> pikhq_: will it take me long to finish the pizza btw? would be nice to get to that king stuff as quickly as possible
18:35:19 <oklopol> pikhq_: why am i doing this?
18:35:35 <elliott> bewks are not cheep o'er 'ere.
18:36:17 <pikhq_> elliott: Month or two.
18:36:43 <elliott> rite, i'll just buy rtrkjtkrtjkrtkrtjkrtkjrktjkrjtkrtk11111111111111111111 then
18:36:51 <elliott> hey free shipping if i get it from amazon
18:37:04 -!- cpressey has joined.
18:37:59 <cpressey> I would say I'm waiting for dfgjiodfg to approve it, but *it* is waiting *on* dfgjiodfg's approval
18:38:15 <cpressey> anyway it occurs to me that i've never bootstrapped a compiler for a high-level language
18:38:39 <elliott> cpressey: PIXLEY! given a specialiser.
18:38:43 <elliott> ok that doesn't even vaguely count.
18:38:50 <cpressey> int is 12 bytes in python. jeez
18:39:38 <cpressey> oh, i was more surprised when i thought it was 12 bits
18:39:38 <elliott> (at the risk of mentioning one thing TOO MUCH in too short a span of days, first quote from http://prog21.dadgum.com/39.html is relevant)
18:40:52 <elliott> pikhq_: what's the good and bad std for snes roms again. istr something like that. so complicated.
18:40:56 <elliott> is goodsnes the one that's the bads
18:42:08 <cpressey> i'm pulled in too many different directions now
18:42:23 <elliott> cpressey: like python!! what?
18:42:35 <elliott> cpressey: ooh, ooh, bootstrap a compiler for a python subset. to maximise self-hatred.
18:43:03 <elliott> pikhq_: what's the good one.
18:43:55 <cpressey> elliott: icould skip a step and just hate rpython, it wdoul save time
18:44:02 <cpressey> hi non-woking keyboard i missed you
18:44:17 <elliott> cpressey: tinypy is more what i was thinking.
18:44:51 <elliott> pikhq_: hmm, nice, europe vs. usa versions of the same game, that's... so easy to decide :D
18:45:31 <iconmaster> look at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Right_bracket )
18:46:08 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:46:35 -!- GregorOpMonger has joined.
18:46:40 -!- Gregor has set channel mode: +o GregorOpMonger.
18:46:53 <Gregor> Just protecting a scarce resource :P
18:47:02 -!- copumpkin has joined.
18:47:08 <elliott> pikhq_: How big is that torrent of aaaaaaaaaaaaaall the SNES games? :P
18:50:28 <cpressey> so,the productive suffixes of fans of programming languages: "-ista", "-ist", and "-er" at least
18:50:46 <pikhq_> elliott: Something like 8 gigs?
18:50:46 <cpressey> i want there to be a "-nik" but i will be disappointed
18:52:07 <cpressey> quintopia: i gather from your statement that you told a friend of yours who is at PyCon that I am at PyCon and that he or she should look for me
18:52:20 <elliott> pikhq_: Hmm, I can only find 2.6 gigs...
18:52:26 <quintopia> i gather from your statement she did not
18:52:31 <pikhq_> Okay, so I seriously overestimated.
18:52:39 <elliott> pikhq_: http://torrentz.eu/6a74b187e40ef0414b52588eb3d1a36b47f3f97a
18:53:06 <elliott> pikhq_: Oh, there's this smaller one: http://torrentz.eu/f525add4936c1b11853b5a96247a98961ced6dda but I know not what "(merged)" means there.
18:53:19 <cpressey> quintopia: does your friend have any interest in esolangs?
18:53:47 <elliott> cpressey: BAND TOGETHER AND OVERTHROW PYCON
18:53:59 <quintopia> cpressey: ruby is an esolang, right?
18:54:54 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
18:55:10 <quintopia> enjoy your pizza and beer at the tip bof
18:55:15 <cpressey> fun was not expected... i'm surviving, that's all i ask
18:55:35 <elliott> cpressey: what kind of insanity made you think this was in any way something you could do?
18:56:01 <elliott> pikhq_: I conclude you got them from a wizard.
18:56:42 <elliott> how many kazoos does it involve?
18:56:57 <cpressey> i'll probably be attending 2 other conferences this year, both very different -- more academic
18:57:44 <elliott> "Theoretical BDSM" and "The Python-induced Crippling Alcoholism Support Group".
18:58:25 <elliott> Wizardry should be illegal.
19:00:32 <elliott> optbot: what do you think of wizardry?
19:00:32 <optbot> elliott: http://zem.fi/~fis/cont.png -- none of those look very non-essential to me. Although I'm not quite sure what "Program handler" does.
19:03:47 <elliott> "Oh well", I'm sure 20080712 is new enough.
19:05:24 <cpressey> i've noticed that when i have irssi running, when a talk gets dry, i can't concentrate on it
19:05:40 <cpressey> ah well most of these could be compressed to 10 minutes anyway
19:08:12 <cpressey> hg clone http://hg.python.org/cpython/
19:09:07 <elliott> cpressey: please tell me you're going to crash some ad-hoc meetup where they're sharing code and go all "oh this doesn't work in my cpython"
19:09:13 <elliott> and it's because you've added a prng to every damn function
19:09:21 <elliott> and nothing does what it's supposed to any more
19:09:38 <elliott> *sigh* ONE DAY i'll go to python conferences ON MY VERY OWN and prank them all.
19:09:42 <cpressey> i didn't have that in mind but i will admit it is brilliant
19:10:32 <cpressey> "i installed the included batteries backwards"
19:10:52 <elliott> oh, the re module? yeah, a bunch of functions for Religious Education... this _is_ a library after all
19:11:25 <elliott> "well what did you *expect* 2.0 + 2.0 to give apart from 5? this is floating point you know, it's imprecise!"
19:11:53 <elliott> pikhq_: WHY ARE YOU THE BAD
19:12:44 <optbot> cpressey: as a toggle marker
19:12:53 <elliott> cpressey: um yes. he used to be here a while back.
19:12:57 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:13:00 <elliott> cpressey: it sets the topic every 6 hours
19:13:03 <elliott> and also when you say "optbot!"
19:13:04 <optbot> elliott: it is not ransom
19:13:08 <elliott> and also replies to mentions of its name.
19:13:14 <elliott> all messages come from random log entries
19:13:23 <elliott> it was what inspired fungot's babble generator.
19:13:23 <fungot> elliott: a yucca clone might be nice to them.
19:14:03 <elliott> this time it's... python BUT
19:14:14 <elliott> I was trying to think of the language most amusingly unsuited to the task at hand
19:14:21 <elliott> but rejected Fortran and J for just being WAY TOO MUCH OF A PAIN
19:14:25 <elliott> so I picked the next best thing, Python
19:15:50 <elliott> i think cpressey is still judging me.
19:15:59 <cpressey> ett's ssseeeeeeeeeeeeeeee if mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmy hg clone makes any progres by time this tkis over
19:16:13 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:16:18 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:16:20 <elliott> your keyboard. it's impressive.
19:16:26 <cpressey> elliott: you should come here, give talk on it
19:16:50 <cpressey> i suspect the keyboard driver for this laptop in ubuntu is not perfect
19:16:52 <elliott> line = random.choice(lines)
19:16:52 <elliott> return re.sub(r'^[a-zA-Z\\[\]\\`_^{|}][a-zA-Z0-9\\[\]\\`_^{|}]+:\s+', '', line)
19:20:31 <elliott> gmail's keyboard shortcuts are awesome.
19:27:36 <cpressey> configuring and building this puppppp
19:27:41 <cpressey> *pupppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp
19:29:04 <elliott> write a python->pixley compiler!!198379328
19:29:10 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
19:29:18 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o GregorOpMonger.
19:29:44 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o Gregor.
19:30:00 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
19:30:08 <oerjan> i think that got a little out of hand.
19:31:00 <elliott> cpressey: quick, change the lexer to parse { as INDENT and } as DEDENT
19:31:21 <elliott> then add a semicolon at the end of the statement rule
19:32:36 <cpressey> Python 3.3a0 (default:9e70e818d434, Mar 12 2011, 14:13:12)
19:33:20 <cpressey> looking through source dir for interesting source file to modify
19:33:44 <elliott> cpressey: excuse me i just gave you the best ideas?
19:33:54 <elliott> also swap [] and (), just because.
19:34:14 <elliott> print["good morning", "abc"(2)];
19:35:09 <elliott> cpressey: yes. the most boring part of an esolang.
19:35:15 <cpressey> (&#&)@^ have to modify both the grammar and the parser???
19:35:18 <elliott> but also the easiest, and who wants to waste time on python
19:35:38 <cpressey> it might think i want to do a more than trivial change
19:36:16 <cpressey> changed the syntax for newstyle classes to
19:36:47 <elliott> i'm joining in the fun too
19:37:15 <cpressey> yeah, it can't even finish building because it tries to load existing python code, looks like
19:37:25 <elliott> cpressey: just add it as an alternative >:D
19:37:38 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
19:39:20 <pikhq> elliott elliott elliott
19:39:46 <elliott> pikhq: WHENCE DO I ILLEGALLY PROCURE AT A SPEED GREATER THAN THAT OF A TORTOISE THIS MYSTICAL COLLECTION, FOR THE BITS, THEY RUN TRY EVERYWHERE THE GOOGLES CAN LOCATE
19:40:46 <elliott> pikhq: Shoot me Chrono Trigger or something so I can test this bsnes build? :-P
19:41:27 <cpressey> Fatal Python error: Non-statement found: -13824 8308512
19:41:39 <cpressey> I added an '*' alternate to the grammar
19:41:42 <elliott> cpressey: THIS IS SO MUCH FUN
19:42:01 <cpressey> stop making such good suggestions!
19:42:25 <cpressey> maybe i'll go to the ast talk after all
19:42:36 <elliott> but unfortunately, the most difficult.
19:42:50 <cpressey> in docstrings? but that would be so cheating
19:43:30 <elliott> yield_expr: 'yield' [testlist]
19:43:39 <cpressey> it might be easier here than in a non-offside-rule langauge
19:43:52 <elliott> cpressey: python isn't really offside rule though in the way haskell is
19:44:06 <cpressey> no, but i only mean, it cares more about the column than, say, ruby does
19:45:36 <elliott> every function call f(x,y,z) becomes x.__getfunc__('f')(y, z)
19:45:44 <elliott> object.__getfunc__('f') just returns the global symbol f by default.
19:45:54 <elliott> unless f is an attribute of this object and a function
19:45:56 <cpressey> cheater-: make cpython crash, apparently
19:45:57 <elliott> in which case it returns that
19:46:09 <elliott> so f(x,y,z) == x.f(y,z) if f is defined on x
19:46:25 <elliott> and f(x,y,z) and f(x',y,z) can behave totally differently according to x and x''s whims!!
19:47:19 <elliott> SyntaxError: 'yield' outside function
19:48:02 <elliott> suite: simple_stmt | NEWLINE INDENT stmt+ DEDENT | NEWLINE '{' stmt+ '}'
19:48:27 <elliott> nice, had to make twice to get it to recompile
19:49:17 <cpressey> blurg need to shut down again battery gasping
19:49:21 <elliott> hmm, doesn't work, oh well
19:49:36 <elliott> pikhq: So disappointed in you. SO disappointed
19:50:15 -!- Lymia has joined.
19:52:52 <cheater-> https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-VWFCAOgti6g/TXqUxvpr9lI/AAAAAAAACdQ/mdX79YsluRY/s1600/google_vintage.jpg
19:53:54 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:18:15 <elliott> all this sobbing, there's a person at the centre of this sobbing, who doesn't care, that person is pikhq, folks
20:19:58 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:20:09 <elliott> pikhq is an evil space demon
20:22:27 <elliott> My bsnes compile remains UNTESTED, my computer's performance UNCERTAIN.
20:22:37 <elliott> All because of evil space demons.
20:23:06 <oerjan> elliott: they clearly had to think of something that could top that earthquake they made
20:23:30 <pikhq> Fukushima-Daiichi reactor explosion.
20:24:13 <pikhq> Appears to have just affected an outer wall. Still, eeek.
20:24:41 <oerjan> i'd expect the japanese to take some care while building reactors.
20:24:56 <pikhq> Yes. They didn't expect a 9.0.
20:24:56 <elliott> pikhq: ONE MEASLY LITTLE ROM
20:25:17 <oerjan> pikhq: um this is JAPAN. how could they not expect it.
20:25:25 <elliott> oerjan: because japan doesn't get 9.0.
20:25:32 <pikhq> oerjan: What, one of the largest earthquakes ever?
20:25:40 <elliott> it's actualy 8.8-8.9 but w/e
20:25:52 <pikhq> Significantly larger than it was previously believed *possible* to get there?
20:26:16 <olsner> they really should expect the largest earthquake ever, because they regularly get those
20:26:22 <elliott> ok, so pikhq is an undercover agent of the MPAA.
20:26:58 <ais523> hmm, time to write a compiler backend from desugared Algol 60 syntax trees, minus recursive data types or any sort of memory allocation, but including recursion, to hardware: 2 days
20:27:18 <ais523> I'm quite proud of that, although it explains why you haven't heard much from me recently
20:27:21 <pikhq> It's also the largest earthquake to ever hit Japan...
20:27:54 <oklopol> there's this guy in finland who SWEARS he once felt the earth move a bit
20:28:16 <elliott> i'd totally ask random people for the rom except i distinctly recall asking before and only pikhq had it >:)
20:28:19 <oklopol> that was big news some years back, i hear
20:28:53 <oklopol> this is one damn exciting country
20:29:23 <oklopol> also this one time it rained so much there was a 5x5 meter pond outside, pretty insane
20:29:35 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Skåne_County_earthquake
20:29:41 <olsner> sweden has earthquakes too!
20:29:50 <oerjan> oklopol: i thought finland had plenty of water...
20:30:09 <oklopol> oerjan: well yes but not disasterous INTERESTING water
20:30:51 <elliott> pretty sure pikhq caused the tsunami.
20:31:28 <oerjan> norway isn't actually earthquake territory either. on some outlying islands they sometimes feel a bit, i think.
20:31:42 -!- cpressey has joined.
20:31:49 <ais523> <oklopol> also this one time it rained so much there was a 5x5 meter pond outside, pretty insane <-- for some reason that implies to me that the pond was exactly square
20:31:52 <ais523> which would indeed be insane
20:31:56 <oklopol> "The Oresund Bridge between Sweden and Denmark was investigated for cracks and other problems but nothing was found." holy SHIT, and here i thought scandinavia was a safe place
20:31:57 <oerjan> elliott: no it was his mom taking a dive
20:32:17 <oklopol> but no, a bridge was almost damaged
20:32:17 <cpressey> i figured out what class Foo*: should mean. it should mean that Foo inherits from itself.
20:32:30 <ais523> does that operation actually do anything, though?
20:32:32 <elliott> cpressey: you are truly a great visionary of our time
20:32:36 <pikhq> ais523: Minecraftian pond.
20:32:42 <ais523> it'd cause the equivalent of super() to go into an infinite loop, and make no difference the rest of the time
20:32:53 <cpressey> CONCEPTUALLY IT IS PERFECTLY WELL DEFINED
20:32:56 <elliott> ais523: he's hacking up cpython, he can do whatever he wants!
20:33:05 <ais523> I suppose that makes perfect sense in an esolang
20:33:12 <oerjan> pikhq: minecraftian ponds in the real world would be rather lovecraftian. despite being euclidean.
20:33:16 <ais523> much like Claudio Calvelli's unary division
20:34:11 <ais523> (defined as (x / (x >> 2)), which nearly always returns 2 except for when there are rounding errors)
20:34:35 <ais523> hmm... IIRC, the behaviour is "normally return 2, except occasionally return 3 or crash"
20:35:34 -!- cpressey_ has joined.
20:37:07 <ais523> all unary ops in INTERCAL are op(x, x>>1)
20:37:21 <oklopol> i haven't actually used these silly operators, because bits are so 50's
20:37:28 <ais523> except there's some sort of rotation involved too
20:37:30 <ais523> which I forgot to allow for
20:37:34 <oklopol> so i figured maybe i don't understand how they work
20:37:51 <ais523> oklopol: TriINTERCAL uses trits instead, and unary division is well-defined there too
20:37:56 <ais523> although still pretty useless
20:38:27 <oerjan> ais523: (x>>1) | ((x&1) << 31) ?
20:38:45 <ais523> ah, I just looked it up
20:38:54 <ais523> it normally does a pure rightshift in inconsistency to the rest of the INTERCAL
20:38:59 <ais523> but you can change it to a rotation with a compiler option
20:39:03 <ais523> *to the rest of the INTERCAL operators
20:39:19 <ais523> <clc> CLC-INTERCAL 1.-94.-4 introduced a new unary operator, division. This differs from normal unary operators because it is arithmetic, not bitwise. The operation is as follows: the operand is shifted right arithmetically, then the original value is divided by the result of the shift and truncated to an integer. Note that the most frequent result is the base, since a right shift is equivalent to a division by the base, truncating the result to an
20:39:21 <ais523> integer. For example, in base 5, unary division of #62 is #62 divided by #12, which just happens to be #5. However, the operation can also return other values, for example in base 5 unary division of #12 is #6. And of course any value smaller than the base produces a division by zero splat. A compiler option, bitwise-divide, changes the unary division to behave like a normal unary operation, performing a bitwise rotate of its operand and so on. You
20:39:22 <ais523> can figure out what it does.
20:39:59 <Gregor> Why hasn't somebody written fuse-hg yet >_>
20:40:00 -!- cpressey_ has left (?).
20:41:06 <Gregor> elliott: AFAICT there's no good gitfs either.
20:41:26 <oerjan> > [x `div` (x `div` 2) | x <- [1..]]
20:41:29 <elliott> This PEP is rejected. It is considered a feature that None raises
20:41:30 <elliott> an error when called. The proposal falls short in tests for
20:41:30 <elliott> obviousness, clarity, explictness, and necessity. The provided Switch
20:41:30 <elliott> example is nice but easily handled by a simple lambda definition.
20:41:30 <elliott> See python-dev discussion on 17 June 2005.
20:41:33 <oerjan> > [x `div` (x `div` 2) | x <- [2..]]
20:41:34 <lambdabot> [2,3,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,...
20:41:34 <cpressey> i'm in the "myopic language improvement suggestions" talk
20:41:46 <elliott> > filter (/= 2) $ [x `div` (x `div` 2) | x <- [2..]]
20:41:50 <oerjan> ais523: not very much 3 there...
20:41:56 <elliott> that should at least produce [3,
20:42:26 <Gregor> elliott: If you get sgfs working, I will switch Hackiki to Scape🐐
20:42:35 <ais523> elliott: no, 2 / (2 / 2) is 1
20:42:41 <elliott> ais523: <lambdabot> [2,3,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,...
20:42:47 <elliott> it should produce [3, before timing out
20:42:53 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:42:57 <oklopol> ais523: are you sure 2/2/2 is 1
20:43:12 <ais523> but 3 / (3 / 2) is 3 if you use integer division
20:43:20 <oklopol> your points are rather floaty today
20:43:20 <ais523> and 1 / (1 / 2) is divide-by-zero
20:43:53 <oerjan> > 1:let f x = f (x+1) in f 1
20:43:57 <zzo38> Now I completed making a chess program with TeX. http://sprunge.us/QSWX http://sprunge.us/MdJW http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_13/texchess1.png
20:44:11 <Gregor> elliott: btw, I have no idea what the conceptual advantage of Scape🐐 is over any other VCS :P
20:44:12 <zzo38> Probably the pieces is a bit too small?
20:44:14 <cpressey> "hiding flow control inside of macros is a bad idea" -- raymond chen
20:44:23 <ais523> zzo38: does it generate the annotations itself?
20:44:26 <Gregor> Nor, really, what concept is unique to Scape🐐 at all.
20:44:41 <cpressey> what is that character after Scape?
20:44:47 <ais523> cpressey: C-INTERCAL not only hides flow control inside macros, but hides it inside a postprocessor
20:44:50 <elliott> Gregor: Explaining it more in-depth has been known to put people who aren't me and ais523 to sleep, so I won't bother.
20:44:50 <Gregor> elliott: Mandelbrot is dead.
20:44:52 <zzo38> But it does parse the moves itself and draw the board itself.
20:44:54 <olsner> cpressey: nice, I guess he uses only inline-assembly for control flow then
20:45:13 <oerjan> > 1:let f x = f (x+1 :: Double) in f 1
20:45:23 <elliott> Gregor: The end effect is that it does merging properly :P
20:45:52 <oerjan> elliott: i think it's just that lambdabot doesn't produce anything if it times out before filling the output buffer
20:45:54 <Gregor> How properly is "properly" :P ... I mean, neither git nor hg SUCK at branching and merging, though there's always room for improvement.
20:46:15 <ais523> elliott: ah, is it just that my attention span is so variable that it's impossible to tell if I'm paying attention or not?
20:46:29 <zzo38> ais523: If you want to see what the TeX chess generates, look at the example source file, everything not typed in the example file but is shown in the picture, is the things it makes by itself.
20:46:30 <elliott> ais523: Err, I meant people who aren't either me or you
20:46:32 <elliott> Gregor: git and hg both have a "dumb" view of the repository: they just see it as a bunch of trees stuck together. All the knowledge of patches is hacked on to this.
20:46:47 <elliott> Gregor: This is inherently more limited than scapegoat, which keeps track more than just the textual content of lines changed in its patches.
20:46:51 <ais523> elliott: I know, I was trying to figure out why I'd been singled out as an exception?
20:47:00 <elliott> ais523: because you're the one who explained it to me
20:47:03 <elliott> and I assume you didn't put yourself to sleep
20:47:05 <ais523> ah, is Scape a sort of easier-to-implement version of Scapegoat?
20:47:11 <ais523> I hadn't noticed the name connection
20:47:19 <elliott> that's scape[unicode goat character]
20:47:43 <Gregor> ais523: I call Scape🐐 Scape🐐 because Unicode goat > Unicode 'g' 'o' 'a' 't' :P
20:47:45 <ais523> that character isn't parsed by my client
20:48:01 <Gregor> Then your clients suck ... mine can't render it, but it knows that it's there :P
20:48:07 <elliott> Gregor: Basically, instead of having patch operations like "insert STRING between STRING and STRING in FILE", it has "insert STRING between CHANGE and CHANGE".
20:48:19 <ais523> as in, it doesn't even figure out the encoding correctly
20:48:23 <cpressey> everything that hides anything anywhere sucks
20:48:29 <elliott> Gregor: Each file has its own SOF and EOF changes.
20:48:40 <zzo38> My client does display the unicode correctly but I have no font to display it.
20:48:54 <oklopol> cpressey: does this guy prefer copy paste over functions?
20:49:08 <Gregor> elliott: "insert STRING between CHANGE and CHANGE" <-- more details plx
20:49:26 <cpressey> oklopol: raymond chen? i have no idea; that quote influenced someone else to reject a proposed feature
20:49:35 <cpressey> i hear raymond chen is awesome but i forget who he is
20:49:40 <elliott> Gregor: Change := start of file <fileid> | end of file <fileid> | insert string between change and change | replace change with string | delete change | move (change,change) between (change,change)
20:49:47 <elliott> cpressey: the old new thing
20:50:00 <elliott> Gregor: Basically, sg changes have a very trivial merging algorithm (topographically sort each change by its dependencies (changes it mentions), apply in order; if a patch fails, there is a conflict), that can trivially be shown to never "do the wrong thing".
20:50:02 <cpressey> i didn't say i wanted to remember
20:50:20 <zzo38> When trying to look up "Raymond Chen" in Wikipedia I get "MSDN Blogs". So maybe that is who Raymond Chen is.
20:50:30 <elliott> Gregor: A line is identified by the change that creates it.
20:50:45 <elliott> Gregor: So consider "insert 'hello' between (SOF,EOF)". Call this change <c1>.
20:50:46 <zzo38> It is "The Old New Thing", according to Wikipedia.
20:50:53 <elliott> Gregor: Let's say you turned this file into 'hello\ngoodbye'.
20:50:53 <cpressey> ugh this is painful (not the talk, it's interesting, it's what it's making me think about language design
20:50:55 <Gregor> I think I'm starting to conceptualize it here ... in a sense the repository ends up forming an (implicit) lattice instead of a tree.
20:51:02 <elliott> Gregor: The corresponding change is "insert 'goodbye' between (<c1>,EOF)".
20:51:09 <ais523> it's one of the better MSDN blogs
20:51:25 <elliott> Gregor: (In practice, you give a hash to every change and identify changes with that.)
20:51:33 <ais523> cpressey: heh, those unbalanced parens were worrying me too
20:51:52 <elliott> Gregor: Changes can also be a set of changes, and in fact the change "changeset {c1,c2}" produces a merge of c1 and c2.
20:51:57 <olsner> cpressey: is that a talk available online somewhere?
20:52:07 <Gregor> elliott: And so, you don't create false dependencies just because you happened to make a change in one branch, even though it applies to all branches.
20:52:16 <cpressey> olsner: it might be, in the future, but i can't find them online yet
20:52:21 <elliott> hmm, I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, maybe ais523 knows because he's slept :)
20:52:39 <elliott> Gregor: The same basic principle with changes on files is applied to directories, except that since directories are unordered, you say "insert <entry> into <change that created directory>".
20:52:44 <elliott> Where <entry> can be e.g. an empty directory itself.
20:53:02 <Gregor> elliott: Well, I frequently fix something in hg, then go "aww shit I fixed it in branch <X> but I should have put it in default so that things will merge properly" ... but your changes aren't assigned to "branches", they're just assigned to dependent changes, so fixes like that wouldn't be so affixed to the branch you happened to be working in.
20:53:21 <ais523> Gregor: yes, it avoids the problem where a VCS doesn't have enough context to know what a chain means
20:53:23 <elliott> Right, in fact with scapegoat there's not much of an explicit concept of a branch...
20:53:31 <elliott> In fact all possible changes platonically exist in every repository :-)
20:53:41 <elliott> (And the One Big Repository has shitloads of branches.)
20:53:44 <ais523> the definition's done the other way round, a branch is defined by which changes you happen to allow into it
20:53:48 <elliott> The question is just what you whitelist.
20:53:53 <Gregor> elliott: Well, I would hope that you could label a set of changes in some way, then call that a "branch", just for human convenience.
20:54:03 <Gregor> elliott: Although like I was saying above, if it's a lattice then conceptually there's a shitload of branches.
20:54:07 <elliott> Gregor: This can also be extended to language-aware changes -- consider "insert argument <x> between <y> and <z>", where y and z are arguments to some application.
20:54:44 <elliott> Gregor: This would produce totally kickass merging, but it would be a pain to get the mode resilient :P
20:54:54 <elliott> (But really you shouldn't be committing invalid code.)
20:54:56 <cpressey> i don't know what you two are talking about but it is awesome, please continue
20:55:29 <elliott> Gregor: BTW most of this stuff are ais523's ideas, I just kept prodding him with questions until I had a vision of a coherent system in my head :P
20:55:42 <elliott> cpressey: Unfortunately I must tell you everything.
20:55:43 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, so I was told :P
20:56:11 <Gregor> elliott: You realize of course that now that I'm starting to have some conceptualization of it, I'll go implement it and trounce your implementation and you'll go "awwww no"
20:56:20 <elliott> Gregor: Yeaaah, good luck with that.
20:56:30 <elliott> Gregor: There is a lot more :P
20:56:46 <elliott> For instance, in a theoretical platonic model, you can define a branch as a predicate that takes a patch and returns whether it's in the branch or not.
20:57:01 <elliott> (Whether this is feasible or even useful in an actual implementation is up for debate.)
20:57:49 <Gregor> There is a correctness criterion for said predicate, namely that if it evaluates to true for change X, it evaluates to true for all parents of X, and as a result I question the value of defining it so abstractly.
20:57:53 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, and one of the parts of sg I made was that you can push ANY changes by simply recursive cp.
20:58:18 <elliott> Gregor: (Assuming a directory-based store.)
20:58:23 <elliott> (If not, there'll be a trivial command to merge two databases.)
20:58:40 <elliott> Basically every object in the database is assigned a longcat hash, and things are never addressed without it :P
20:58:45 <elliott> <Gregor> There is a correctness criterion for said predicate, namely that if it evaluates to true for change X, it evaluates to true for all parents of X, and as a result I question the value of defining it so abstractly.
20:58:51 <cpressey> I HAVE TO MOVE TO ANOTHER ROOM NOW
20:59:38 <cpressey> so scapegoat is some kind of VCSWiki
20:59:39 <Gregor> elliott: Dependency. I suppose "parent" is a bit of a strong implication for that, but *eh* :P. A change named by the given change.
20:59:50 <cpressey> with a language for describing changes
20:59:53 <elliott> cpressey: Mmm, if by VCSWiki you mean nothing like a wiki at all, then yes, absolutely.
21:00:08 <cpressey> i thought Gregor mumbled something about replacing giki with it
21:00:16 <zzo38> They do describe thing about broken stack in MSDN Blogs, which is something I have sometimes had problem with too (although I was using gdb instead).
21:00:21 <elliott> Gregor: I've been thinking of those as "dependencies", but they are pretty close to parents.
21:00:34 <elliott> Gregor: It's just that most VCSes don't have like fifty parents per change :P
21:00:49 <cpressey> So that just means he'd just be dropping the wikiness from his site, I guess?
21:00:55 <elliott> Gregor: (Consider that every individual line insertion is addressable, as it must be to be referencable in further commits.)
21:00:58 <Gregor> cpressey: I'm talking about replacing one COMPONENT of Hackiki, and sg is just a thought.
21:01:09 <elliott> Gregor: (An efficient way to store this -- probably inline with some kind of lookup table -- will have to be found.)
21:01:12 <Gregor> cpressey: Hackiki uses a VCS as its store.
21:01:21 <elliott> (This would cause ridiculous inode blowup, thus why I'm partial to using an object database file.)
21:02:26 <elliott> Gregor: A nice thing about the "you can literally just shove any two repositories together" thing is that a hypothetical ScapegoatHub can just store everything in one big honking repository and get deduplicative storage of forks for free :P
21:02:52 <Gregor> elliott: Of course, naming the "repository" (in the classic sense) that you want to check out is a bit painful :P
21:03:08 <elliott> Gregor: Well, a "repository" is essentially defined by its tip commit.
21:03:11 <elliott> You work backwards from there.
21:03:16 <olsner> elliott: btw, git starts blowing up at around 30 parents of a commit
21:03:28 <elliott> Gregor: Note that in the naïve case, checking out an sg commit is slooooooooooooow, because you have to simulate every change back to the beginning of time.
21:03:38 <elliott> Gregor: A sane implementation would store full copies of files every N revisions or so.
21:03:56 <cpressey> you should be able to uncheckout as well as checkout and it should keep reference counts and should garbage collect changes that no one is using
21:04:12 <elliott> A garbage collect is basically copying the tip and all its dependencies to a new repo, then removing the old one.
21:04:14 <Gregor> elliott: But there are no commits, only changes, so a "tip" commit is artificial on top of that. You can't from any given change (thinking of them as lines for ease) necessarily trace your way back to every other change, since you'd have to trace forwards too ...
21:04:28 <Gregor> elliott: Commit == multiple changes
21:04:30 <elliott> ais523 defined the tip precisely, I think.
21:04:47 <elliott> The oldest commit with most dependencies?
21:04:55 <Gregor> Presumably it would be the set of all changes representing the current view with no dependents.
21:05:01 <elliott> Basically it's "good practice" in sg to commit two conflicting changes to the tip without merging immediately.
21:05:06 <elliott> And you don't want either to become the tip.
21:05:14 <elliott> So you have to be careful with the definition.
21:05:14 <olsner> elliott: you don't have to store forward deltas though - e.g. git will usually store the head as non-delta, then make older commits deltas of newer ones
21:05:22 <elliott> (Consider that "conflicting changes" is basically the definition of an sg branch.)
21:05:33 <elliott> olsner: Indeed, but, eh, that's "implementation details".
21:05:34 <Gregor> olsner: That becomes a bit tricky with this design, it's not so linear.
21:05:50 <elliott> Right, sg sorta discards conventional notions of time and whatnot X-D
21:06:08 <elliott> Every possible change exists, and you just pick which ones you like.
21:06:10 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
21:06:15 <elliott> Usually by making them manually and running "sg commit".
21:06:59 <elliott> Gregor: An sgfs could, I think, work, but I have no idea what you'd actually expose via it...
21:07:16 <elliott> A scapegoat repository is essentially a big hash-indexed object store.
21:07:21 <oerjan> <Gregor> There is a correctness criterion for said predicate [...] <-- hm a closed set in a finite topological space...
21:07:26 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:07:47 <elliott> ais523: oerjan is now going to ruin our version control system.
21:07:50 <elliott> Soon it will become topology.
21:08:16 <ais523> elliott: don't worry, he'll end up getting stuck into trying to work out the theoretical basis behind darcs
21:08:36 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:08:39 <elliott> ais523: He's a theoretical mathematician. He hand-waves over the utterly nonsensicality of his models on a *daily basis*.
21:09:42 <elliott> Gregor: sg was apparently born after the TAEB guy looked into darcs and concluded its merging algorithm made no sense at all, FWIW :P
21:10:07 <Gregor> I thought it was born after ais523 went "lol VCS sux I'mma make my own"
21:10:19 <oerjan> <elliott> Gregor: Note that in the naïve case, checking out an sg commit is slooooooooooooow, because you have to simulate every change back to the beginning of time. <-- isn't this like a problem with darcs too, without further optimization?
21:10:20 <ais523> it was the other person working on TAEB::AI::Planar, which is a side project of mine
21:10:34 <ais523> oerjan: well, obviously
21:10:40 <ais523> it's a problem even with CVS in the really naive case
21:10:40 <elliott> Gregor: I would like to take credit for convincing ais523 that for the time being, the turtles do not have to go down to per-character-change granularity.
21:10:50 <elliott> (With complete editor integration on every keystroke)
21:10:53 <ais523> wait, are they still called turtle?
21:11:04 <elliott> ais523: I was implicitly invoking the all-the-way-down story.
21:11:05 <ais523> do we really not have a better name for them?
21:11:07 <Gregor> Per ... modified block?
21:11:11 <elliott> ais523: I'm calling them changes :P
21:11:26 <elliott> Gregor: As in, every single character insert or removal generates a commit.
21:11:33 <elliott> It should be noted at this point that ais523 is slightly insane.
21:11:42 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, but what is the current thoughts on it?
21:11:43 <olsner> if sg is as general as that would imply, it'd be neat to actually call them turtles
21:11:53 <Gregor> Change = "sequence of modifications with no intervening unmodified character"?
21:11:55 <elliott> Gregor: Commits happen only manually, and line-basedb y default :-P
21:12:13 <Gregor> Well, commits happening manually is totes acceptable :P
21:12:14 <elliott> I'm open to non-line-based suggestions, but it's what every VCS uses, and it's hard to merge two changes to the same line.
21:12:25 <elliott> The ideal solution is language-aware change types.
21:12:32 <ais523> Gregor: changes are mostly defined recursively as bundles of other changes, although there has to be a bottom level somewhere
21:12:44 <ais523> elliott convinced me that it's best to be flexible about where it is, depending on what you're versioning
21:13:01 <Gregor> There needs to be a common solution too, you can't integrate every language :P
21:13:08 <elliott> Gregor: Well, yah. Line-based.
21:13:13 <elliott> But really, why can't you? There's an Emacs mode for every language.
21:13:16 <ais523> for the time being we're basing it on lines, as they're the most commonly meaningful
21:13:20 <olsner> so then there's a bottom level, and it's turtles all the way *up*?
21:13:26 <elliott> But yeah, this is pie-in-the-sky talk for now.
21:13:30 <Gregor> elliott: I'mma go write a new language HEY WHERE'S MY EMACS MODE
21:13:32 <ais523> olsner: heh, that's one way to describe it
21:13:42 <ais523> Gregor: I can ship you a copy of brainfuck-joust-mode if you like
21:13:48 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, and the SOF/EOF commits created for each file use the file identifier... and the file identifier is just the hash of the {directory-change} that added the file to a folder.
21:14:08 <oerjan> <elliott> Soon it will become topology. <-- finite topological spaces are rather trivial, that "including ancestors" or "including descendants" thing is basically all there is to them. also, this is the same as a finite partial order.
21:14:10 <ais523> I wrote it in the latest BF Joust spate, in order to get decent syntax highlighting and indentation
21:14:51 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, and technically the directory change structures would be POSIX-specific at first... mostly because if you cater to working well on Windows, you can't version things like symlinks, and that's incredibly irritating.
21:15:07 <elliott> I suppose you could translate them to NTFS links or whatever, but at the present time the amount I care about Windows is ~0.
21:15:25 <Gregor> Windows is made of fail, nobody cares.
21:15:31 <olsner> NTFS links don't work like symlinks anyway
21:15:41 <olsner> only kind of similarly in certain circumstances
21:15:44 <elliott> ais523: btw, I really like how sg's merge algorithm can be implemented in a dozen lines in just about any language :)
21:15:48 <elliott> without even a built-in topological sort
21:16:01 <ais523> implementing it efficiently is rather harder
21:16:10 <elliott> Topological sort by dependencies, apply each in resulting order; if any fail, the changeset fails.
21:16:20 <ais523> but it's got the property of Underlambda that I like: easy to implement, possible to implement efficiently
21:16:34 -!- fungot has quit (Quit: server upgrade time).
21:16:56 <ais523> wow, that quit message from fungot seemed almost intelligible
21:18:45 <elliott> Gregor: Anywho, implementing scapegoat's basics is really quite trivial, it's making it actually "work" that's significantly more difficult.
21:19:07 <elliott> I mean, for one, the change-generator needs to recognise moves, replacements, etc.
21:19:18 <elliott> Gregor: (Note: sg is the only VCS I know of to handle splicing a file properly :P)
21:19:21 <ais523> elliott: remember we were discussing Paul Levy a few days ago
21:19:27 <elliott> i.e. splitting x.c into a.c and b.c
21:19:29 <ais523> he unintentionally gave me some advice on Feather
21:19:33 <elliott> git, for instance, sees it as renaming x.c to one of them
21:19:36 <elliott> and creating an entirely new file for the other
21:19:42 <elliott> in sg, you move both halves of the file out to the new one
21:19:45 <elliott> then remove the resulting empty file
21:20:01 <ais523> he was explaining the theoretical basis behind continuation-passing-style
21:20:33 <elliott> "It's all about call-by-push-value, you see."
21:20:45 <elliott> "And call-by-push-value's theoretical basis is itself."
21:20:55 <ais523> and I realised that although it's hard to track the control flow of a program when you retroactively modified what it was doing, it's much easier to track it in CPS
21:20:56 -!- cpressey has joined.
21:21:17 <ais523> (the problem is: if you retroactively modify a program, what in its new execution corresponds to what in its old execution?)
21:21:38 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
21:21:39 <cpressey> elliott: no, it has to be reference-counted, so every repo knows who has cloned what from it
21:21:52 <cpressey> because otherwise it's not insane enough
21:21:58 <elliott> cpressey: err...certainly. in the wiki, yes.
21:21:59 <ais523> cpressey: this is meant to be practical
21:22:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:22:42 <elliott> At least as practical as Haskell!111
21:22:50 <cpressey> in that case i am totally designing a language
21:22:50 <elliott> Gregor: So what would you actually want out of an sgfs or whatever?
21:23:44 <Gregor> What I want out of <whatever>FS is the ability to mount a particular revision as a filesystem, make any (or no) changes, then commit as part of unmounting.
21:24:13 <Gregor> I want this to be done without writing to the real filesystem if I don't write to the mounted filesystem, making it potentially faster than just a checkout.
21:24:28 <elliott> Err, does every page load involve a commit in Hackiki or something?
21:24:36 -!- cpressey1 has joined.
21:24:39 <elliott> Don't quite see why you want it to support doing nothing so efficiently :P
21:25:22 <elliott> Yeah, but why would that be common?
21:25:26 <cpressey> (that was an attempt at a joke)
21:26:14 <elliott> Gregor: I am INTERROGATING your usecase.
21:26:23 <Gregor> elliott: Most pageloads don't involve a commit, I'm optimizing for the NO-commit case.
21:26:26 -!- cpressey1 has left (?).
21:26:38 <Gregor> elliott: A checkout involves HD write, HD write is bad.
21:27:03 <cpressey> every pageload would mount a FUSE-backed fs...?
21:27:05 <elliott> Gregor: I'm not sure scapegoat checkout can be very lazy.
21:27:12 <Gregor> I just can't have them all trouncing around in the same repo since one of them MIGHT write.
21:27:15 <elliott> Gregor: Is it OK if it checks it all out into memory before the mount completes?
21:27:21 <elliott> (In a realistic sg implementation, this would not take long.)
21:27:31 <Gregor> elliott: Memory is fine.
21:27:39 <Gregor> cpressey: Presently every pageload (modulo caching) triggers a hg clone.
21:27:57 <elliott> Gregor: What if you had to explicitly tell it to commit on unmount so I don't have to keep track of a dirty flag X-D
21:28:09 <Gregor> elliott: Also fine, I know if it wrote or not.
21:28:34 <elliott> Gregor: Then that should be pretty easy, really; sg already _has_ a mental model of the entire directory tree.
21:28:47 <elliott> Gregor: (Fun thing about sg: You can move the / of a repository into a subdirectory of another)
21:29:01 <elliott> So you can move your libvm/ subdirectory out into another repository :P
21:29:33 <elliott> Gregor: What happens when Hackiki gets a conflict?
21:29:54 <elliott> Gregor: I'm assuming that it always commits from the commit you checkout, not from whatever the tip happens to be when you unmount.
21:30:15 <elliott> (Multi-process safe writing to object databases, hooray X_X)
21:30:24 <Gregor> elliott: It commits to that, then tries to merge; if the merge fails, too bad, your commit goes away.
21:31:03 <elliott> I think sg tends to in theory flag up more conflicts than most VCSes, but in practice it shouldn't matter.
21:31:22 <elliott> (Purely in that editing the same few lines of a file is likely to mess the ordering up and thus cause a conflict.)
21:32:09 <elliott> No, I implemented some algos.
21:32:23 <elliott> Gregor: Say you have a file [a, b, c] (those are lines).
21:32:39 <elliott> Say one commit inserts a line so it becomes [a, b, d, c]; insert d between (b,c)
21:32:57 <elliott> Say another commit replaces b with q so it becomes [a, q, c]; replace b with q.
21:33:00 <elliott> These two commits conflict.
21:33:11 <elliott> Same if two commits inserted a line between b and c.
21:33:17 <Gregor> Those two commits conflict in almost /any/ VCS.
21:33:42 <elliott> Mm. I don't really have many experiences with conflicts in practice because I dont work on any large-number-of-developer projects.
21:33:43 <Gregor> Actually, make that every VCS, ever :P
21:33:48 <elliott> But scapegoat is definitely very anal about its ordering.
21:33:53 <elliott> I possibly did not pick the best example.
21:34:06 <elliott> Gregor: OK, how's this for you:
21:34:19 <elliott> Gregor: In scapegoat, two people can start a repository with a file "foo" in it.
21:34:25 <Gregor> elliott: Think of every major VCS' merging algorithm as just taking two unified patches and trying to apply them both. That's pretty much all you get, with a little bit more cleverness sometimes. If your context changes, you fail.
21:34:28 <elliott> John can insert [a,b,c] into foo.
21:34:35 <elliott> Anne can insert [a,b,c] into foo.
21:34:38 <elliott> They both commit, and try and merge.
21:34:41 <elliott> In scapegoat, this is a conflict.
21:34:58 <Gregor> I'll bet there's at least one that does! :P
21:35:13 <elliott> (Because the hash of John's and Anne's changes will be different, because it involves the timestamp, their name, summary, etc. etc. etc.)
21:35:21 <cpressey> gehhh... what does "merge" mean here if that is the case
21:35:29 <cpressey> nothing can be merged, effectively
21:35:33 <elliott> cpressey: Completely false.
21:35:47 <elliott> cpressey: The fact is that this is an unrealistic scenario.
21:35:55 <elliott> Two people never independently reinvent a file from scratch.
21:36:10 <elliott> Scapegoat is based on blame; merging works based on the common ancestors that identify each line.
21:36:44 <elliott> cpressey: No, but really: If foo started off as [a,b]
21:36:48 <elliott> And John changed it to [a,x,b]
21:36:52 <elliott> And Anne changed it to [a,b,y]
21:36:58 <elliott> Then they'd merge successfully into [a,x,b,y].
21:37:05 <elliott> Because the a and the b are the asme in both cases.
21:37:26 <elliott> The thing is that John's and Anne's a, b, and c are different in that above example, because scapegoat doesn't just work on the literal bytes of the line, it works on the change that produces them.
21:38:06 <ais523> elliott: and ofc if your users have the habit of doing this sort of thing, it's entirely possible to generate a merge conflict resolution automatically, or automatically-with-confirmation
21:38:20 <elliott> You should probably slap such users, of course.
21:38:28 <elliott> Yeah, clarification, by conflict I don't mean you can NEVER COMMIT THEM EVER :P
21:38:45 <elliott> In this case, you'd just have to pick one of John's and Anne's a, b, and c.
21:38:54 <elliott> The decision is essentially arbitrary.
21:39:04 <ais523> or resolve it any other way you like
21:39:16 <cpressey> so to clarify: when you said "hash of the timestamp, name, summary" you meant of these properties when the file was created, not properties of the change?
21:39:18 <elliott> Although then commits to Anne's branch wouldn't get merged in properly... but basically this is the least realistic scenario ever.
21:39:23 <elliott> cpressey: The properties of the change.
21:39:29 <elliott> cpressey: Every single change is a change.
21:39:38 <elliott> Of course "add line X between Y and Z" is unlikely to have a summary.
21:39:39 <cpressey> ok, then i still don't understand, but i don't care enough to commit the brainpower to trying
21:39:45 <elliott> But it'll have the author, and the timestamp in it.
21:39:57 <elliott> cpressey: Most VCSes have change = author + timestamp + diff.
21:40:08 <elliott> Scapegoat has patch = author + timestamp + change.
21:40:21 <elliott> Where change = insert string between patch and patch, delete patch, ..., changeset (set of patch)
21:40:29 -!- Lymia has quit (Quit: ==(>^w^)> ==(> >.<)>).
21:40:33 <elliott> You almost always commit changesets (implicitly, by making multiple changes).
21:40:42 <cpressey> elliott: you can stop typing if you like-- see my previous line
21:40:48 <elliott> cpressey: Just trying to help.
21:40:55 <ais523> he's monologuing in case anyone reads the logs
21:41:13 <elliott> ais523: I think it might also be for my own benefit :P
21:41:22 <elliott> And for Gregor's in case he's still listening.
21:41:26 <cpressey> that would make sense, since you're the main consumer of the logs
21:41:28 <ais523> well, you're an avid logreader :)
21:41:34 <ais523> gah, cpressey beat me to the joke
21:41:48 -!- Lymia has joined.
21:41:59 <elliott> I'm the channel's official Historian, I have to be!
21:43:06 <elliott> Gregor: ...to summarise, AFAICT implementing scapegoat efficiently basically involves lots of caching.
21:43:09 <elliott> Ludicrous amounts of caching.
21:43:28 <elliott> ais523: BTW, I was thinking that changes should be signed with the author's GPG key...
21:43:37 <elliott> With the GPG public key stored in the author object.
21:43:46 <elliott> And perhaps some sg magic to automatically migrate any seen author objects to a common store.
21:43:55 <ais523> what if someone's GPG key changes or expires?
21:44:08 <elliott> ais523: then they become a new person-hash (but the same happens if they change their email, etc.)
21:44:17 <ais523> hmm, that's acceptable
21:44:27 <elliott> ais523: maybe there'll be some way an author can give everyone an "i'm this person now" object
21:44:40 <elliott> or maybe it could just be left for people to work out; it's not a big issue, IMO
21:44:56 <elliott> ais523: Automatic migration would be a security hole if you first saw an author in a malicious repository though. Anyway.
21:44:59 <coppro> are we discussing the new dvcs you're making?
21:45:01 <elliott> You couldn't sign every single change...
21:45:06 <elliott> because that'd include every single line touched.
21:45:14 <elliott> But I'm not sure how to do it more granularly without breaking the object-hash structure.
21:45:27 <coppro> what are we calling it again?
21:46:27 * iconmaster just noticed that he has invented 27% of the 2011 esolangs.
21:46:42 <olsner> elliott: hmm, if you sign something won't you implicitly be signing all its parents?
21:46:54 <elliott> olsner: err, no, considering that other people write the parents
21:47:00 <elliott> do you mean that it counts as like
21:47:17 <elliott> "I verify that the authorship information contained in these depended-upon commits is accurate"?
21:47:29 <elliott> so then things committed as changesets would just get unsigned constitutents, and the whole thing would be signed as a seal of approval
21:47:39 <elliott> the only problem is that, looking only at a subcommit, the system would not know it is signed
21:47:43 <elliott> without traversing up the graph
21:47:59 <olsner> yeah, it's slow unless you make it fast
21:48:32 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:48:50 <elliott> olsner: can't just cache everything, dude :)
21:48:59 * iconmaster is writing to Esolang all the languages he hasn't bothered to put down there yet.
21:49:01 <elliott> Gregor: Well, I think sgfs should be perfectly feasible to do efficiently.
21:49:33 <elliott> Gregor: I refuse to accept Hackiki's legitimately unless it draws fancy dependency lines in the revision history and has a merge conflict settler interface, though :-)
21:49:51 <ais523> iconmaster: I should do that sometime
21:50:02 <ais523> I haven't documented DownRight anywhere, and it's been finished for ages
21:50:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:50:19 <elliott> ais523: DID YOU USE MY AMAZING SYNTAX IDEA
21:50:39 <ais523> I keep forgetting that languages need one of those
21:50:53 <ais523> (the compiler I wrote this weekend doesn't have one, you feed it ASTs as an argument)
21:52:10 <ais523> even Lisp has a syntax, although a very lightweight one
21:52:40 <Phantom_Hoover> It's basically just a syntax for serialising ASTs, though.
21:55:53 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it has quotes
21:56:03 <ais523> which are something which seem relatively Lisp-specific, in that context
21:56:35 <elliott> just use (quote x) directly
21:56:55 <elliott> ((LAMBDA (X) (LIST X (LIST (QUOTE QUOTE) X))) (QUOTE (LAMBDA (X) (LIST X (LIST (QUOTE QUOTE) X)))))
21:57:00 <oklopol> why is it always ast, why never a general asg :\
21:57:07 <elliott> you just construct an ast object
21:57:10 <elliott> and then pass it to the compiler
21:57:34 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: u r stupid
21:58:26 -!- cpressey_ has joined.
21:58:46 <oklopol> can you write a lisp loop that's just code that's a cycle?
21:59:00 <Gregor> Lisp is as close to syntax-free as you can POSSIBLY get, although I'll admit that quoting (as opposed to the list constructor) is borderline syntaxy. BORDERLINE.
21:59:47 <Gregor> elliott: OK, Forth is definitely less ensyntaxed than Lisp :P
21:59:55 <elliott> Forth has literally no formal syntax, it's just a system that starts in a mode that: Reads a bunch of letters or digits; stops on a space; executes it; and repeats.
22:00:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I doubt it, since Lisp is applicative order (henceforth to be known as boringplative order).
22:00:18 <Phantom_Hoover> eval would try to walk the entire graph and just get stuck in a loop.
22:00:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Although that's a cool esolang idea and one which must be done.
22:00:34 <elliott> not if you used a special form
22:00:46 <elliott> #1#=(begin (display "fart") (newline) #1#)
22:03:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a feeling that would end up being boring... right.
22:03:12 <Gregor> I suppose, where Lisp is "please hand my your AST as I am too lazy to parse a language", Forth is "please hand me your bytecode as I am too lazy to deserialize an AST" <trollface/> <alsohorriblyinaccuratedefinitionofforth/>
22:03:43 <elliott> #1#=(set-car! #1# set-cdr!)
22:03:58 <elliott> #1#=(begin (set-car! (cadr #1#) set-cdr!) #1#)
22:05:02 -!- TLUL has joined.
22:07:20 -!- fungot has joined.
22:07:39 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:08:27 <Phantom_Hoover> So, erm, is this going to be a graph reduction language where cyclical graphs are allowed, or...?
22:10:23 <oklopol> just scheme where you can write code with loops with ease + magic
22:11:07 <oklopol> let's not start bikeshedding details like what the language is like.
22:11:46 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott's two examples are kind of tricky, though, since it's unclear how evaluation proceeds.
22:12:23 <elliott> literals like that are immutable i think :)
22:13:06 <oklopol> in theory, it should just recursively evaluate children, and apply the function in the parent.
22:13:32 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, which doesn't work because you end up trying to walk an infinitely deep tree.
22:14:16 <cpressey_> elliott: so ok. john changes [a, b, c] to [a, e, c]: it has hash 1234. anne changes [a, b, c] (same as john's starting point) to [a, e, c] (same as john's end point): it has hash 8765 (because anne != john). scapegoat merges these in some way that is not based on the contents, i.e, it does not look at e and compare e with e. explain how
22:14:29 <elliott> each individual element of that list has its own hash.
22:14:35 <oklopol> well yeah but only a COUNTABLY infinite tree, so it shouldn't be that hard ay
22:14:37 <elliott> which is the important thing.
22:14:40 <elliott> the list doesn't really exist
22:14:40 <cpressey_> which does not contain the author?
22:14:51 <elliott> cpressey_: like i said, there ARE no lines
22:14:58 <elliott> lines are identified by the commit that creates them
22:15:25 <elliott> cpressey_: not automatically
22:15:30 <elliott> cpressey_: by the scapegoat auto-merger
22:15:35 <Phantom_Hoover> This basically sums up half of what happens in this channel.
22:15:40 <elliott> cpressey_: but you could _trivially_ have a merge handler that just chooses one of two identical nodes.
22:15:41 <cpressey_> elliott: what kind of change could be?
22:15:49 <elliott> cpressey_: any change not like that.
22:16:02 <elliott> *two people never modify a file in the exact same way*; that's not a realistic user case.
22:16:13 <elliott> <elliott> cpressey: No, but really: If foo started off as [a,b]
22:16:13 <elliott> <elliott> And John changed it to [a,x,b]
22:16:13 <elliott> <elliott> And Anne changed it to [a,b,y]
22:16:13 <elliott> <elliott> Then they'd merge successfully into [a,x,b,y].
22:16:13 <elliott> <elliott> Because the a and the b are the asme in both cases.
22:16:21 <elliott> this is far more representative of how changes are actually made
22:16:55 <elliott> basically, if two scapegoat commits don't conflict, then they fit together perfectly; otherwise, they might have a perfectly reasonable resolution, but no objectively correct one; what happens next is up to you
22:17:42 <cpressey_> that's why i initially asked: what's the definition of "merge" here
22:17:57 <elliott> cpressey_: merge simply means that (changeset {c1,c2}) is valid
22:18:20 <elliott> can apply properly to any input that c1 and c2 can apply to.
22:18:26 <elliott> i'm no good at the explainy.
22:23:31 -!- cpressey_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:25:28 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:25:34 <Sgeo> Bleh, I think Rust may really be better with just immutable and state, rather than immutable, state, gc
22:25:52 <Sgeo> How regularly are Phantom Types used in Haskell?
22:32:39 -!- azaq23 has joined.
22:32:57 <Zwaarddijk> what would be interesting would be if someone managed to abuse terminology cleverly enough to get an uncountably finite something
22:33:40 <Zwaarddijk> but who knows if someone really cleverly abuses terminolgoy
22:33:44 <Phantom_Hoover> You can have sets which are countably infinite, but with uncomputable countability, sooo...
22:33:52 <ais523> Zwaarddijk: it's possible if you don't have the axiom of choice
22:34:10 <ais523> as you can have two things that can't be put into one-to-one correspondence with {1,2} because there's no way you can decide which one goes to which number
22:34:14 <ais523> and you can't make an arbitrary choice either
22:34:27 <Zwaarddijk> ah, so cantor's diagonalization breaks down
22:34:44 <ais523> hmm, that might be one reason why people like axiom-of-choiceless systems
22:34:50 <ais523> even though they don't seem to correspond to reality too well
22:35:04 <Zwaarddijk> or like, diagonalization gets too powerful, rather
22:36:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm... perhaps you could do something silly with computational equivalence.
22:37:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Like, you have a set defined as {x : x = f \/ x = g} where f and g are arbitrary functions, and you can't tell if that set has 1 or 2 members
22:39:00 <ais523> wouldn't that just be an uncomputable set?
22:39:04 <ais523> I don't see why that would make it uncountable
22:42:44 <ais523> I don't see why the two things have to have anything in common
22:45:38 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:47:06 -!- azaq23 has joined.
22:47:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Zwaarddijk, conclusion: *all* finite sets are uncountable.
22:48:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:49:46 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:53:42 <oerjan> <elliott> *two people never modify a file in the exact same way*; that's not a realistic user case. <-- um what if there's a single, obvious fix to a bug?
22:53:56 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:53:59 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:54:57 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
22:55:40 <oerjan> <ais523> and you can't make an arbitrary choice either <-- you don't need the axiom to make a finite number of arbitrary choices
22:57:24 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> "Countable" = "is bijectible with N". <-- countable usually includes finite sets as well, iirc
22:58:43 <oerjan> "In mathematics, a countable set is a set with the same cardinality (number of elements) as some subset of the set of natural numbers."
22:59:12 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well without the axiom of choice you can have uncountably finite sets, as said
22:59:32 <oerjan> it's just a bit more complicated than not selecting between two elements
23:00:08 <oerjan> the trick is that there are two possible definitions of "finite", which don't agree if you don't gave AoC
23:00:44 <oerjan> one is "same cardinality as some {1,...,n} where n is a natural number"
23:01:04 <oerjan> same cardinality as == has bijection with
23:01:32 <oerjan> the other is "contains no proper subset of the same cardinality as itself
23:02:14 <oerjan> you can have a set of the second type which has no bijection with any subset of the natural numbers
23:03:55 <oerjan> the axiom of choice allows to keep selecting elements of a set until you either run out or have got a subset matching N
23:05:03 <oerjan> in fact if you _do_ have a proper subset with the same cardinality, you don't even need the axiom to get such a subset
23:06:26 <oerjan> just let f : A -> B be the bijection, let x in A - B, and select {x, f(x), f^2(x), ...}
23:09:17 <oerjan> (mind you the axiom does not allow selecting elements _directly_, you need to prove the corollary of dependent choice first)
23:21:17 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | but using small numbers like 4.
23:23:04 -!- wareya_ has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:24:22 -!- wareya has joined.
23:31:31 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:33:16 -!- wareya has joined.
23:40:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I like the way their symbol is just the province drawn simply.
23:41:55 -!- augur has joined.
23:51:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:57:08 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:10:53 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:13:52 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:23:40 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
00:29:43 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:35:52 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:39:10 -!- GregorOpMonger has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:41:59 <oerjan> iconmaster: you might perhaps maybe consider possibly investing in a spell checker. just saying.
00:43:04 <zzo38> Did you forget? (Or did I forget?)
00:44:48 -!- Zuu has joined.
00:45:13 <zzo38> There are many computer programs that parse algebraic chess notation. But I don't know how many are done with typesetting systems.
00:47:23 <zzo38> Do you prefer descriptive notation or algebraic?
00:47:29 <zzo38> Or morse code chess notation?
00:47:42 <zzo38> How often is chess played over morse code?
00:48:11 -!- TLUL has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:49:45 <zzo38> How often is chess played by telephone?
00:50:11 <zzo38> How often by mail?
00:51:14 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:51:14 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:52:05 <oerjan> i guess (non e-) mail chess is rarer these days
00:52:20 <oerjan> back in the 80's it was all the rage
00:52:39 <oerjan> (my dad was an avid player)
00:53:31 <Gregor> Some people like to play chess on the order of "hours" instead of "months"
00:54:10 <oerjan> i recall a children's story in which they played chess over the telephone. the kicker was that at the end it turned out the sweet lady on the other side was ... on the other side.
00:54:43 <oerjan> that was a slow game too, only one move per call
00:54:46 <Gregor> Where the grass is always greener.
00:56:11 <oerjan> intertwined with a crime mystery
00:58:15 <oerjan> Gregor: he played chess on the order of "hours" too. probably very different, with mail you could do all kinds of literature lookup. mind you this was before the web and before computers became all-powerful in chess.
00:58:45 <Gregor> IN A TIME BEFORE COMPUTERS
00:59:14 <iconmaster> oerjan: I guess I should start writing articles on a spell-checked text editor BEFORE submitting it... That would work.
00:59:30 <iconmaster> oerjan: And thank you for putting up with my spelling errors.
00:59:50 <oerjan> iconmaster: i nearly always compose longer pieces in vim even if i'm a reasonably good speller
01:00:14 <oerjan> for one thing it guards against those annoying timeouts
01:00:23 <zzo38> Of course if you have a sufficiently powerful computer, it can always win at chess (if programmed correctly).
01:00:43 <zzo38> Same with Go, although an even more powerful computer would be required, way more powerful.
01:01:14 <zzo38> No computer will ever be good at Rock-Paper-Scissors, though.
01:01:16 <Gregor> s/always win/always win or stalemate/
01:01:52 <oerjan> zzo38: a computer can be _perfect_ at rock-paper-scissors, if it has a perfect random number generator.
01:02:22 <Gregor> oerjan: Then your definition of "perfect" is sorely lacking :P
01:02:29 <oerjan> perfect in the sense of game theory, that is
01:02:44 <zzo38> Gregor: Yes, possibly stalemate too. Although if they make such a computer they might figure out solving it entirely whether black or white has an advantage, and if so, how much.
01:02:52 <oerjan> ok maybe not perfect in taking advantage of inferior players
01:03:13 <Gregor> zzo38: Sure, but the generalization has to allow for stalemate, since not all games will have a distinct sidedness.
01:03:33 <zzo38> Gregor: Yes, I did consider that, too.
01:03:44 * oerjan recalls there was a game, hm let me look it up...
01:04:26 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hex_(board_game)
01:04:49 <oerjan> it's always a win for the first player, this can be proven despite no one knowing what the winning strategy _is_
01:05:58 <zzo38> They tried to build computer to win at Rock-Paper-Scissors tournament, but then they realize it is impossible. There are a lot of players in the tournament and some are really good at it, so they will beat the other players, and so on. So the computer has a very small chance of possibly winning the tournament. At a single game though, with perfect random number generator, the computer expect to win 50% regardless of their opponent's plays.
01:07:14 <zzo38> Playing at random is called chaos play. The official strategy guide labels the difficulty of the chaos play strategy to be infinite.
01:07:36 <zzo38> (Not only is it infinitely difficult, but you cannot expect to win more than 50%.)
01:08:12 <oerjan> zzo38: aha so the computer can lose a "hill" even if doesn't really lose against any single player
01:08:34 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, like that.
01:09:20 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:09:42 <zzo38> At a game like backgammon, a sufficiently powerful computer cannot always win, but it might be able to win a very large amount of the time (I do not know what the maximal probability of winning backgammon is with best strategy).
01:11:59 <pikhq> Actually, one could build a rock-paper-scissors computer that would be better than a human.
01:12:05 <pikhq> Humans have a tendency to choose scissors.
01:12:22 <pikhq> Not that it would *win*, but it would be *better*.
01:13:07 <zzo38> pikhq: Not better against a good player.
01:13:53 <zzo38> But perhaps better than bad players.
01:15:30 <zzo38> I have also read rules of a chess variant for SCA, that uses dice. Most of the pieces do not move very far. On each turn you roll two dice and the number tells you what kind of pieces you are allowed to move.
01:16:27 <zzo38> The knights (which are the same as FIDE chess) are the only ones that are allowed to move more than one space (and are forced to move more than one space).
01:16:58 <coppro> I want an omega chess set
01:20:08 <zzo38> coppro: Do you know where to buy it?
01:20:28 <zzo38> I have a shogi set.
01:20:58 <zzo38> But it isn't very good because the board is paper. The pieces are OK, though.
01:22:33 <coppro> zzo38: I haven't seen an omega chess set in a brick-and-mortar store
01:22:36 <coppro> not even the Sentry Box
01:22:40 <Gregor> http://codu.org/wiki/N-in-a-row%20game Vague musings on an unsolvable game.
01:23:24 <coppro> and bgg appears to be down right now
01:25:02 -!- augur has joined.
01:25:50 -!- iconmaster has quit (Quit: ALLAGUF?).
01:27:25 * Sgeo wonders what Infinity Chess is like to play
01:28:03 <coppro> there is no such thing as infinity chess
01:28:15 <zzo38> I have seen a chess problem that says "checkmate in infinity plus fifteen".
01:28:39 <Sgeo> coppro, as in..
01:29:37 <Sgeo> The board looks like the infinity symbol, except one of the loops is smaller than the other
01:29:41 <oerjan> so omega chess isn't infinite chess?
01:30:21 <Sgeo> The name reminded me of it
01:30:37 <oerjan> checkmate in omega plus fifteen would be a perfectly reasonable thing then...
01:30:38 <coppro> chess variants does not have it
01:31:20 -!- cpressey has joined.
01:31:51 <cpressey> so i guess if i want to announce something, using the topic of this channel isn't a good option, huh
01:32:08 <Sgeo> coppro, is there a weird boards category of chess variants?
01:32:11 <zzo38> cpressey: Just announce it as a normal message at first.
01:32:51 <cpressey> zzo38: well, i don't have anything -- yet. i was just figuring, it'll only stay up for a short time, then optbot will trample it
01:32:51 <optbot> cpressey: it's unfinished, although finished to the point that you can consider it a very buggy finished product as opposed to an unfinished one
01:33:16 <cpressey> but haven't been able to do much while at pycon
01:33:58 <zzo38> cpressey: What is it, though? Once you do it, just type something about it to the channel if you want opinion or whatever.
01:34:35 <Sgeo> The Wikipedia page for Chess variant has it
01:34:44 <oerjan> cpressey: we _could_ set the channel +t for a while, i guess...
01:35:02 <zzo38> oerjan: No, I think that is not necessary; just announce it normally.
01:35:10 <oerjan> cpressey: prevent topic changes
01:35:15 <Sgeo> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/32793/infinite-chess
01:35:17 <zzo38> Even announce in topic message if you want but of course someone can change it
01:35:20 -!- cpressey1 has joined.
01:35:28 <Sgeo> That has to be it, although I remember it looking a bit different
01:35:37 -!- cpressey1 has left (?).
01:35:40 <oerjan> zzo38: the thing is now optbot changes the topic automatically every six hours
01:35:44 <coppro> Sgeo: I can't connect to bgg for whatever reason
01:35:46 <Sgeo> http://www.colebank.com/ichess/index.asp
01:35:46 <zzo38> I think this channel is locked to -t though
01:35:57 <Sgeo> "Experiencing God"
01:36:03 <zzo38> oerjan: I think you should remove that function from optbot and have people change it manually.
01:36:03 <optbot> zzo38: elliott_, I know I don't have any
01:36:07 <oerjan> zzo38: i'm sure there's some chanserv command to change that
01:36:20 <oerjan> zzo38: it's not my bot
01:36:24 <zzo38> Yes there is some command to change mode locks if you are the owner of this channel.
01:36:37 <zzo38> But otherwise it is locked to +nc-mst and you cannot change that.
01:36:46 <oerjan> hm must one be founder?
01:36:49 <zzo38> oerjan: Then who is it?
01:36:52 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:37:24 <Sgeo> The "Experiencing God" thing is not what I linked to, it's just another page on the same site
01:38:15 <zzo38> There is a category for chess game with different shape boards http://www.chessvariants.org/index/mainquery.php?type=Game&category=Shape&startswithletter=&language=English&daysyoung=0&daysold=0&minyearinvented=&maxyearinvented=&boardrows=0&boardcols=0&boardlevels=0&boardcells=0&authorid=&inventorid=&orderby=LinkText&usethisheading=Game+with+different+shape+boards&displayauthor=on&displayinventor=on®expurl=®explinktext=
01:38:41 -!- amca has joined.
01:39:18 -!- augur has joined.
01:40:42 <cpressey> wait, isn't there a ST:TNG episode with Q that has something like that...? probably not
01:40:54 <zzo38> What icons should I add in chess font? There is enough for 63 different kind of pieces, and I already have all 6 FIDE pieces, as well as: circle, vizier, firzan, inverted rook, crescent moon, amazon, knight rider.
01:40:59 <cpressey> there is an episode of Dr Who with eternal-type beings in a boat race though
01:41:27 <cpressey> b/c he has nothing better to do
01:41:45 <zzo38> cpressey: What is GodChess?
01:43:08 <cpressey> zzo38: i don't know. i just randomly put together words that seemed to be coming from Sgeo's direction
01:43:48 <zzo38> cpressey: If there is no game like that, then invent a game like that.
01:44:02 <Sgeo> cpressey, keep doing that, and we may have to put you into an Asylum build system.
01:44:33 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +t.
01:44:47 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -t.
01:44:51 <cpressey> coming up with the name is the first step to inventing it, but i invite anyone who might be more intrigued with the concept to do so
01:45:06 <cpressey> i still say it was an episode of ST:TNG with Q, or should have been
01:45:21 <oerjan> zzo38: apparently i have enough permissions for changing mode lock
01:45:22 <cpressey> and of course he would have used the Enterprise as an, uh, pawn
01:45:25 <zzo38> cpressey: I know how to invent chess variants, but you can make some ideas about it too.
01:46:04 <zzo38> oerjan: Well, maybe you do, but I still think you shouldn't. Instead you should tell whoever programmed optbot to change the frequency of topic message changes to one week instead of six hours.
01:46:04 <optbot> zzo38: seriously? that is the ugliest thing ever
01:46:30 <cpressey> zzo38: optbot does NOT approve of your suggestions.
01:46:39 <zzo38> Actually, no. Not one week. Set it to 24 hours after the last change.
01:46:54 <cpressey> or change only the part after the last |
01:47:13 <zzo38> So, not every 24 hours, but 24 hours after the last change, but 1 minute if the log URL is missing.
01:47:56 <zzo38> cpressey: That is another possibility, I guess.
01:48:26 <oerjan> zzo38: one week would sort of remove the fun of it. maybe elliott could put some command in to let people change what optbot puts before its own part
01:48:26 <optbot> oerjan: you don't happen to have an escape character for inserting controls now?
01:48:33 <zzo38> optbot: What do you mean is the ugliest thing ever?
01:48:33 <optbot> zzo38: The question is not "do I need (s+n)?", it's "can I make GGGGGGGGGGGGC support (s+n)?".
01:48:49 <zzo38> oerjan: I know one week is too long, which is why I almost immediately took back that suggestion.
01:50:08 <zzo38> I think a certain amount of time *after the last change* is better, perhaps 24 hours is good.
01:51:13 <optbot> cpressey: I like how [[Offended]] starts with cute rabbit pictures
01:51:45 <cpressey> all rabbit pictures are cute rabbit pictures
01:52:00 <oerjan> zzo38: well as of now i think optbot doesn't actually look at topic changes other than its own, it could do all sorts of things once it can do that
01:52:01 <optbot> oerjan: well, many are, but there's plenty of finite ones as well
01:52:27 <cpressey> i guess, unless the rabbits in question are dead. they used to test pregnancy that way somehow, i ought to figure out exactly how someday
01:52:58 <oerjan> cpressey: myxomatosis.
01:54:19 <cpressey> oerjan: ok, good first step. but the wikipedia article on it says bubkis about pregnancy, human or otherwise, so i'm still wondering what the connection is
01:54:47 <oerjan> cpressey: it was a counterresponse to "all rabbit pictures are cute rabbit pictures"
01:55:09 <cpressey> oerjan: oh. then: s/dead/dead or sick/
01:55:48 <cpressey> Sgeo: oh you mean like http://www.snopes.com/pregnant/rabbit.asp
01:55:51 <zzo38> I have invented many chess variants.
01:56:33 <cpressey> snopes seems to have wacked my browser. thanks snopes
01:58:16 <cpressey> i have invented no chess variants
01:58:28 <cpressey> start with chess, remove the bishops.
01:58:37 <cpressey> i have invented a chess variant
01:58:49 <zzo38> cpressey: Yes it does that to me too. Turn off plugins, javascript, images, metarefresh, and subdocuments, and so on, and select printer friendly pages. Now it works much better.
01:59:05 <zzo38> cpressey: You are not the only one to have invented that variant.
01:59:32 <zzo38> Actually, turn on meta refresh.
02:01:41 <Sgeo> When I was a kid, I saw kids in the before-school YMCA try a variant: Chess without pawns
02:01:48 <cpressey> when a pawn reaches the other side of the board, it is removed from the board for a number of turns chosen by the player. after a wait of one turn it can return as a knight, two turns a bishop, three turns a rook, or four turns a queen
02:02:09 <cpressey> less likely someone else has invented that (relatively minor) variant
02:03:01 <cpressey> how about "pawns move like rooks"
02:04:27 <cpressey> or how about "bishops can self-destruct, destroying that square on the board (no other piece can ever move into or over that square)"
02:04:32 <cpressey> well maybe knights could move over
02:04:43 <oerjan> hm i recall this variant with only pawns and king...
02:05:06 <cpressey> i recall that as some kind of end-game thing
02:05:26 <cpressey> specifically, a computer program for playing it
02:05:36 <cpressey> unless you're thinking, like, all eight pawns
02:05:56 <oerjan> i think it was all eight
02:06:22 <oerjan> i cannot find it again, because the obvious name for it happens to be the _actual_ norwegian for tic-tac-toe
02:07:03 <oerjan> it may have been just in some chess book
02:07:46 <oerjan> (norwegian for tic-tac-toe is "bondesjakk" which directly translates to pawn chess)
02:09:38 <cpressey> i mean, for checkers, maybe, ok
02:10:27 <cpressey> btw, what do you call a tie in tic-tac-toe, in norwegian?
02:10:38 <cpressey> (a tie meaning, a draw, a stalemate)
02:10:40 <oerjan> actually it's a bit ambiguous between three-in-a-row or five-and-row games
02:10:52 <oerjan> Deewiant: um well that too
02:11:07 <Deewiant> I'd say it's specifically that :-P
02:11:08 <oerjan> pawn and farmer are both "bonde" in norwegian
02:12:19 <Deewiant> It's like Finnish "jätkänšakki"; I think it's just being derogatory about these people who play tic-tac-toe instead of chess
02:13:23 <oerjan> cpressey: i don't know if there's a specific word for tie in tic-tac-toe in norwegian
02:13:41 <cpressey> ah. there is a specific phrase in english, is why i asked
02:13:45 <oerjan> the usual word would be "uavgjort", although in chess it's "remis"
02:15:48 <oerjan> checkers is "dam" in norwegian, although chinese checkers is "kinasjakk"
02:16:08 <zzo38> That is because chinese checkers is a different game.
02:16:26 <cpressey> and then there's turkish draughts
02:16:44 <oerjan> zzo38: yes, but it's also not similar to chess, which the norwegian name would imply
02:17:02 <cpressey> http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/44/messages/373.html <-- various entertaining theories on the origins of "cat's game"
02:18:59 <oerjan> wtf happened to the style of norwegian wikipedia
02:19:37 <cpressey> you're asking the wrong person
02:19:38 <Sgeo> That's distressing
02:20:08 <cpressey> nope, can't help you. looks like wikipedia to me
02:20:35 <oerjan> it was only that one page
02:20:48 <oerjan> similar to what cheater00 experienced the other day
02:20:59 <oerjan> except shift-reload did _not_ fix it for me
02:21:00 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
02:21:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
02:21:13 <cpressey> "Janis Joplin (1943–1970) var ein amerikansk songar, låtskrivar og musikalsk arrangør."
02:21:41 <oerjan> http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiangqi looks horrendous to me
02:22:24 <cpressey> oh, i reloaded, and it appeared
02:22:24 <oerjan> oh so that looks bad for you too?
02:22:34 <cpressey> first time, it did: missing stylesheet
02:23:03 <oerjan> ah now it finally loaded right
02:23:20 <Sgeo> pikhq_, you here?
02:23:31 <oerjan> i am _sure_ i tried crtl+shift+reload once before
02:23:33 <Sgeo> Or anyone else somewhat capable of reading Japanese?
02:23:43 <Sgeo> Can someone say what http://i.imgur.com/fT4Wm.png says?
02:24:03 <cpressey> the css is coming from a PHP script on a server called bits.wikimedia.org. probably this is new, and less reliable than a static file. i'm guessing
02:24:37 <cpressey> sorry, knee-jerk troubleshooting reaction
02:24:47 <cpressey> i work at a place that makes websites
02:26:21 <Sgeo> cpressey, an error I gt
02:26:37 <Sgeo> I know of no special Chinese or Japanese programs on my computer.
02:26:51 <cpressey> Sgeo: i would be totally freaked out, then
02:27:05 <cpressey> do you run any sort of spyware and/or virus checker?
02:27:08 <Sgeo> cpressey, I kind of am reaked out a bit
02:27:29 <oerjan> Sgeo: i would suggest trying to copy and paste that title bar into google translate...
02:27:30 <pikhq_> Sgeo: That is definitely not Japanese.
02:27:37 <cpressey> I know someone who can read chinese, and I can ask him, but I won't see him until tomorrow
02:27:39 <Sgeo> It's already closed
02:27:51 <Sgeo> I didn't think it was possible to copy-paste from title bars
02:28:04 <cpressey> maybe there's something that will let you OCR chinese characters online...
02:28:07 <pikhq_> Looks to be Chinese, either Hong Kong or Taiwan-origin.
02:28:33 <oerjan> Sgeo: ok maybe it isn't possible
02:29:11 <oerjan> maybe you can find some copyable program listing somewhere...
02:30:54 <oerjan> hm if you interpreted random bytes as unicode, what is the chance that the result would look chinese...
02:31:57 <oerjan> except i see some repeated characters in there
02:32:20 <oerjan> like the two ones after the dots
02:32:25 <cpressey> if you picked humans at random, which is the chance they would be chinese
02:32:27 <Deewiant> Binary data in UTF-16 often looks like Chinese
02:32:51 <Sgeo> Is googlecodesamples.com genuine Google?
02:33:03 <Sgeo> WOT likes it, but I see no other indication that it's safe
02:33:15 <cpressey> there is one character that looks non-chinese there... sort of like "s?"
02:34:36 <cpressey> Sgeo: try googling "googlecodesamples.com" -- if google owned it, do you think its result would look like that?
02:34:54 <cpressey> Server Clock: Server-Sent Events, <canvas>, PHP [source]; Offline eBook Reader: Google Chrome Background App feature, AppCache, Server-Sent Events, ..."
02:35:14 <Gregor> NOTE EVERYONE: creat@libc.so is STILL AVAILABLE! Donate now and you could be creat@libc.so!
02:35:37 <cpressey> Gregor: you should totally announce that in the topic
02:35:54 <Sgeo> It's not Google owned
02:36:04 <Sgeo> But it looks like its code is online. Supposedly.
02:36:44 -!- Gregor has set topic: Donate to the Gregoran Somalian Relief Fund, and help Gregor buy libc.so! | Benefits of donation include a vanity <libc symbol>@libc.so email address if I win (and a full refund if I don't); creat@libc.so is still available! | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
02:39:40 <cpressey> so Gemooy has an instruction pointer and a data pointer both pointing into the same playfield. i want a language like that, with two pointers into the playfield, but neither is "instruction" or "data", instead they... share those responsibilities equally.
02:39:44 <Sgeo> Is exit@libc.so still available? What about system?
02:39:49 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
02:39:54 <Sgeo> Fuck off, Sgeo_
02:40:17 <Gregor> Actually only malloc, free and fork are explicitly taken, everybody else who's donated has said "I'll choose later durpadurp"
02:40:21 <cpressey> how about cpressey@libc.so? OMG SO MISSING THE POINT
02:40:33 <oerjan> Sgeo: i find references on this google page: http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/apps-apis/thread?tid=215415e044109197&hl=en
02:41:16 <oerjan> i think it may be official
02:41:22 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Client Quit).
02:41:31 <Gregor> cpressey: No, but memcpy and strcpy are available, and both have "cp" in them :P
02:42:08 <oerjan> or at least officially tolerated
02:42:15 <Sgeo> Oh come on. I write a lengthy quit message, and Freenode nurfs it?
02:42:45 <oerjan> because everyone wants some cp
02:43:10 <oerjan> Sgeo: you have to be logged on for a certain time before quit messages show
02:43:33 <cpressey> Sgeo: do a whois googlecodesamples.com
02:44:40 <Sgeo> At any rate, lemme just revoke access
02:44:46 <Sgeo> The OCR thingy failed, btw
02:45:21 <Sgeo> It's not like it asked for my password >.>
02:45:26 <cpressey> i'm not sure why google would tolerate another website claiming "(c)2011 Google" at the bottom of the page
02:46:39 <oerjan> http://www.google.no/#hl=no&safe=off&biw=1053&bih=620&q=%22googlecodesamples.com%22+site:google.com&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&fp=6f1a8d5df66b6a9c
02:47:14 <oerjan> not sure what to make of it
02:48:14 <cpressey> oerjan: hm. maybe they intended it as an example url? i notice they don't actually have it in links, just text
02:48:36 <cpressey> you're *supposed* to use example.com for that sort of thing though
02:49:02 <oerjan> cpressey: there is at least one place it's a link, in a message by a google employee in the link i pasted a bit further up
02:49:50 <cpressey> are there any other domain names that contain the name google are are known to be owned by them>
02:50:09 <cpressey> googlecode.com redirects to code.google.com
02:50:28 <cpressey> whois on that gets back their mountain view office
02:50:43 <cpressey> so -- if googlecodesamples is legit, why on earth did they register it by proxy
02:53:08 <oerjan> i suppose someone may have squatted it after google used it in text but forgot to register it
02:53:42 <cpressey> Sgeo: at any rate, if you want one of those addresses, there is really only one that makes sense: sbrk@libc.so
02:54:16 <cpressey> oerjan: that would make sense; i almost reasoned that far but didn't quite make it
02:54:17 <Ilari> 23.9% of APNIC pool available at the start of this month has already gone poof (9 business days). Crazy.
02:54:21 <Sgeo> cpressey, why?
02:54:35 <Sgeo> Because both sbrk and Sgeo start with s and are 4 letters?
02:55:14 <cpressey> Sgeo: because system() and exit() are for peasants! everyone calls exit()! who calls sbrk()??? only REAL PROGRAMMERS, that's who!
02:55:25 <oerjan> cpressey: there definitely don't seem to be any high-ranked pages _warning_ against it, though
02:56:33 <cpressey> or how about 'fsck@libc.so', to advertise a delicate, cultured confusion about unix.
02:57:14 <Sgeo> What is not a correct way to reformat a file system, Alex?
02:57:35 <oerjan> "Created on: 6/30/2008 12:57:19 PM
02:58:45 <oerjan> it's not new enough to be something google hasn't discovered yet
02:58:56 <cpressey> yeah, maybe they just don't care
02:59:12 <cpressey> or, it's theirs, in some weird convoluted way
02:59:30 <oerjan> next theory: someone squatted it, quickly got threatened by google's lawyers, and google now owns it but still via the same registrar they originally used
02:59:32 <Gregor> Man, this svr4 .so file is confusing the eff out of nm, readelf and objdump :P
02:59:33 <cpressey> at any rate i don't think it's any kind of threat, exactly
03:00:27 <Gregor> sbrk is pretty great :P
03:00:35 <Gregor> and fsck isn't a libc symbol.
03:01:01 <cpressey> Gregor, unlike cpressey, is apparently not into the delicate, cultured confusion thing. So be it.
03:01:23 <cpressey> i curse thee, DST. i need to get to bed
03:01:31 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
03:01:40 <Gregor> Apparently svr4 had "pcopy"
03:13:54 <pikhq_> *Aaaah*, decaf. Because I both want coffee and want to sleep tonight.
03:16:26 <Gregor> I really wish I had a legit C compiler in my svr4 install :(
03:27:44 -!- wareya_ has joined.
03:30:47 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
03:31:36 <oerjan> did quintopia finish his new bfjoust scoring?
03:32:11 <variable> Gregor: did you end up getting it?
03:32:31 <Gregor> variable: Like I said, it's up for auction.
03:32:59 <Gregor> April 4th. It opens March 28th :P
03:33:28 <Gregor> You could still have a good email address ;)
03:34:47 * variable goes back to work on ports stuff
03:53:37 <Gregor> c-parse.y:1650.19-20: $$ for the midrule at $4 of `structsp_attr' has no declared type
03:54:45 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:57:58 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:03:44 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
04:13:48 -!- Gregor has changed nick to creat.
04:13:58 <creat> I HAS BEST NICK EVER
04:14:51 * pikhq_ should change his name to longjmp.
04:15:38 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:25:32 <creat> pikhq_: Only if you buy longjmp@libc.so :P
04:40:15 <creat> Hmmmmm, it's pretty OK, but :P
04:40:50 <creat> creat is more tongue-in-cheek :P
04:58:39 -!- augur has joined.
05:17:56 <creat> augur: Vanity libc.so email addresses!
05:18:33 <creat> augur: I'm soliciting donations to try to win libc.so in a closed auction. As benefit for donating, I'm offering vanity <libc symbol>@libc.so email addresses if I win :P
05:19:21 <creat> Ohyeah, I'm Gregor btw X-D
05:20:06 -!- creat has changed nick to Gregor.
05:20:34 <Gregor> Snagged creat while it was available :P
05:20:55 -!- zzo38 has joined.
05:21:06 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | I don't think she'll be too happy with me for letting you do this, but I'm not sure how many entries we'll be having in the first place..
05:21:42 <zzo38> They should disable optbot until this problem can be corrected
05:21:42 <optbot> zzo38: 0xfoo is what I prefer of the alternatives
05:22:01 <Gregor> As far as the author is concerned, this is a feature X_X
05:22:28 <zzo38> Maybe, but it still ought to be corrected.
05:22:47 <zzo38> It ought to change topic messages less often and only under the correct circumstances.
05:23:04 <zzo38> (Or else disable that function entirely is another possibility)
05:23:15 <Gregor> The preferable possibility.
05:23:57 <zzo38> Do you know who wrote that program?
05:25:48 <zzo38> Do you know Betza Notation for moves of pieces in chess variants?
05:27:27 -!- dbc has quit (Quit: Seeeeeya).
05:29:01 <zzo38> I have my own. I will proceed to type the notation for the moves in FIDE (ignoring special rules such as en passan, promote, double step, castling, check). Rook is "xr1". Bishop is "1r1". Queen is "(x|1)r1". King is "(1)x1". Knight is "2x1". Pawn is "(1c|m)1+".
05:29:13 <zzo38> oerjan: Can you ask elliott to correct it please?
05:29:25 <Gregor> oerjan: Can has optbot banned? :P
05:29:25 <optbot> Gregor: (assuming b /= 0)
05:29:33 <oerjan> you could do it yourself if he were here.
05:30:05 <zzo38> Gregor: Yes, that is an idea to temporarily ban optbot until this problem can be corrected, I guess.
05:30:05 <optbot> zzo38: Interesting way to describe Caramac.
05:30:05 <oerjan> Gregor: that was in response to zzo38
05:30:52 -!- dbc has joined.
05:31:21 <zzo38> Do you like my notation for moves of pieces in chess variants?
05:31:25 <oerjan> i _am_ still willing to put a temporary +t on the channel, though.
05:31:29 <Sgeo> Tried to nick to bdb
05:31:32 <Sgeo> Someone's using it
05:33:24 <Gregor> oerjan: With what topic?
05:34:08 <oerjan> the one from just before now?
05:34:26 -!- Gregor has set topic: Welcome to #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - #esoteric is not associated with the joke language Perl, for that language please visit www.perl.org or #perl - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
05:34:44 <Gregor> I don't want it to be QUITE that self-serving :P
05:35:08 <oerjan> er... what's the point in locking that
05:35:26 <oerjan> it doesn't even have the herobrine logs.
05:35:44 <zzo38> Then perhaps do not lock it. Ask elliott whenever they come on, to correct it.
05:35:52 <oerjan> i meant if someone actually had some information that needed to stay on it.
05:36:40 <Gregor> I don't NEED my libc.so fund to stay in the topic, it just seems stupid that it's being preempted by a fucking markov chain.
05:36:58 <oerjan> yes, so ask elliott to fix it.
05:36:59 <Gregor> I wouldn't care if a human was replacing it.
05:37:06 <zzo38> For the purposes of this chanenl, I think nobody has information that needs to stay on it. However, I still think optbot ought to be corrected to change the message less often and not if it has been changed recently.
05:37:36 <Gregor> optbot should, at most, change the topic iff it doesn't link logs.
05:37:57 <oerjan> Gregor: oh, i am perfectly willing to ban optbot if elliott doesn't make its topic changes less annoying _after_ a warning.
05:37:57 <optbot> oerjan: I agree, carrier pigeons would be more reliable, if slower on average
05:38:02 <zzo38> Gregor: Very good idea I think.
05:38:22 <zzo38> oerjan: Also it is a good idea to give a warning first.
05:38:39 <zzo38> And then ban it temporarily until it can be corrected, if it is still not corrected.
05:40:08 -!- Gregor has set topic: Donate to the Gregoran Somalian Relief Fund, and help Gregor buy libc.so! | Benefits of donation include a vanity <libc symbol>@libc.so email address if I win (and a full refund if I don't); creat@libc.so is still available! | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
05:40:34 <oerjan> i don't care about the frequency of optbot's changes, but there should be a way to keep things in the topic.
05:40:34 <zzo38> Gregor: Perhaps, either when it doesn't link logs or [some length of time] after it has been last changed, whichever comes first. The length of time here should be at least 24 hours, maye even 7 days if you *really* don't want it changed automatic like that!
05:40:35 <optbot> oerjan: hard to render kanji in low-res, and kana would have been quite long
05:41:00 <Gregor> There should be no timer. Period.
05:43:33 <zzo38> No, I think there should be, but it should count from the last change by anyone and it should be very long (make it fourteen days if you are really concerned, or maybe even twenty-eight days). Unless the logs are not linked, in which case the topic change is activated immediately instead. This channel many topic message change, so if it has not changed in fourteen days, it is time to change it!
05:43:56 <Gregor> Fine, but it's never time to change it to a MARKOV CHAIN >_<
05:45:46 <zzo38> Gregor: Maybe. Perhaps it can select at random from a list, one choice is markov, one is quotes database, and so on. And then decide at random from that.
05:46:34 <zzo38> And it is important that it counts from the last change that anyone made, instead of counting the time only from its own changes.
05:46:36 <oerjan> well i disagree with both of you, so there.
05:46:43 -!- azaq23 has joined.
05:46:51 <zzo38> oerjan: What is your opinion then?
05:47:41 <Sgeo> Gregor, but I want a C++ keyword!
05:47:59 <Gregor> Sgeo: Donate $100 or more and I'll give you anything @libc.so :P
05:48:36 <pikhq_> I'm not sure optbot is actually a Markov chain.
05:48:36 <optbot> pikhq_: Not that I have any clue whether gcc would understand that access via that "bar" pointer there would be 16-byte-aligned. Or what auchar[1] would mean. Maybe there would be padding.
05:48:51 <pikhq_> It's too semantically meaningful.
05:49:02 <pikhq_> I think it's doing random log quotes.
05:49:50 <Sgeo> <optbot> I think it's doing random log quotes.
05:49:51 <optbot> Sgeo: alise, that text is blurry though.
05:50:43 <optbot> zzo38: yeah it still says it doesn't know the magnet protocol
05:50:51 <optbot> zzo38: We could name it "Norton utilities", after the great Discordian Saint.
05:50:55 <optbot> zzo38: maybe he meant if you've checked from DSM you can't be sane
05:51:02 <Gregor> OK, definitely random log quotes.
05:51:02 <Gregor> So yeah, EVEN WORSE than a Markov chain X_X
05:51:08 <oerjan> zzo38: i do not think we should make rules that are more strict than what's needed to solve what is an actual problem. i consider the actual problem here to be that optbot wipes out information from the topic.
05:51:08 <optbot> oerjan: ar isn't difficult.
05:51:19 -!- zzo38 has changed nick to fungot[optbot.
05:51:21 <optbot> fungot[optbot: I also don't use reminder text in my cards generally (even if it has no flavor text or arts)
05:51:27 -!- fungot[optbot has changed nick to zzo38.
05:51:42 <pikhq_> I do believe that was an actual zzo38 quote.
05:52:03 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes, I think it is something I was doing with Magic: the Gathering cards.
05:54:58 -!- asiekierka has joined.
05:55:52 <zzo38> Although I have never connected there, someone told me that FurNet immediately disconnects you if certain words are received from you. However, I want to try connecting from a computer with a reverse DNS containing one of those words.
05:58:26 <zzo38> While SlashNet does not immediately disconnect you, but some commands are prohibited if they contain prohibited words, while others do different things in that case. PRIVMSG is then prohibited but not NS, and using it with QUIT causes your quit message to be suppressed but it otherwise works normally.
05:59:11 <pikhq_> Such a thing, no doubt, suffers from clbuttic problems.
06:00:49 <zzo38> The word happens to be "start keylogger" without the space (some faulty security programs disconnect you if you receive it on IRC). There are also other words such as a command to send a file but with a too long filename, that also is one of the words that is considered prohibited.
06:01:15 <pikhq_> Definitely clbuttic problems.
06:01:56 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes, there is, a bit.
06:02:19 <zzo38> (I, myself, do not think the IRC server should do that. Or, at least, make it a usermode for the receiver.)
06:02:30 -!- amca has quit (Quit: bye).
06:03:06 <coppro> I consider naive filtering to be a clbuttic mistake
06:03:45 <coppro> it rarely even buttists in solving the problem; it's no more effective than a glbutt wall
06:03:45 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:04:07 <zzo38> coppro: Yes I do, too. A clbuttic mistake is found in many things and doesn't work well in many cases.
06:04:21 <zzo38> In fact it should be avoided.
06:05:14 <zzo38> (Or, at least, made into a usermode for the receiver. Some forum software makes it a configuration option in the preferences of the receiver. Some even allows custom filters as well as setting which ones are sender, receiver, or both.)
06:05:43 <zzo38> (And I mean the individual users can define custom filters for themself. I just turned off all built-in and custom filters.)
06:06:27 <zzo38> But, still, if someone is able to configure their reverse DNS, try connecting to FurNet with the forbidden words in your reverse DNS to see what happens.
06:06:45 <coppro> consider the english language as a canvbutt; why restrict users from using certain colors?
06:08:04 <zzo38> coppro: Yes I agree that you should not restrict users in this way. They can decide for themself not to use certain colors, words, phrases, sentences, or whatever. Or, decide to use anything; perhaps even non-English texts if they will include some in whatever they are typing.
06:08:38 <coppro> I concur wholeheartedly
06:12:04 <zzo38> Other similar mistakes that are meant not to censor/filter words but other things, also sometimes do that, such as someone wanted to replace their HTML with XHTML, so they just did a global search/replace "br" to "br /" and obviously that mixed up every word with "br" in it (replacing "<br>" would have been better, but still not perfect).
06:12:46 <zzo38> Or, in one instance someone managed to remove all "t" (only lowercase) from their main webpage (both inside and outside of tags).
06:16:08 <zzo38> What is your opinion about my notations for describing how pieces can move in a kind of chess variant game?
06:16:29 <coppro> I have not seen that variant or notation
06:16:49 <zzo38> coppro: Notation for FIDE pieces: Rook is "xr1". Bishop is "1r1". Queen is "(x|1)r1". King is "(1)x1". Knight is "2x1". Pawn is "(1c|m)1+".
06:17:32 <zzo38> I am not describing particular variants; I am talking about a general notation that might be used for multiple kind of games. Betza notation is another such notation.
06:18:00 <coppro> as I can't, from the FIDE pieces and your notation, understand the notatoin
06:19:17 <zzo38> coppro: OK I can explain a bit. It can have a form [horizontal-direction][horizontal-number][move-flags][vertical-number][vertical-direction].
06:19:49 <zzo38> Where "r" means rider, "x" means the horizontal and vertical can be swapped, and so on.
06:19:55 <zzo38> Now can you understand it a bit?
06:21:43 <zzo38> For the Rook example, "xr1" is where "1" is the vertical-number, "x" means that it could be horizontal instead, "r" means it can move multiple times in that direction. So, it can move horizontal or vertical, moving one step each time and is allowed to move more than one space.
06:22:51 <coppro> ah... that's pretty cumbersome, I'd say
06:22:57 <zzo38> If there are no flags and the result would be ambiguous if that part is omitted, use "_" as the flags.
06:23:30 <coppro> for instance, the x modifier seems silly
06:23:49 <coppro> I would assume symmetric moves by default
06:24:01 <zzo38> Yes a bit more cumbersome than Betza notation, but probably more versatile (I did not describe all things about rule, yet).
06:24:43 <zzo38> coppro: OK, that is a good point; still removing such modifier might cause problems in some other cases.
06:25:16 <oerjan> it is easier to add symmetry than to remove it...
06:40:40 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:41:27 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:19:46 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
07:30:17 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:32:35 -!- aloril has joined.
07:37:25 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
07:49:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
07:53:05 -!- augur has joined.
07:58:43 -!- Okhotnik has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:01:44 -!- Okhotnik has left (?).
08:08:46 -!- HackEgo has joined.
08:26:11 -!- pikhq has joined.
08:26:13 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
08:37:39 <oerjan> hey wait a minute, i've been trying to _avoid_ becoming spherical...
08:38:58 <cheater00> that's why i made you a horned-sphere.
08:41:28 <oerjan> i had a hunch it would be.
08:44:56 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
08:46:06 -!- cheater97 has joined.
08:46:28 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
08:58:40 <Phantom_Hoover> The Guinness Book of Records doesn't accept records with a health and safety risk.
09:03:11 <Ilari> Ugh. RIPE NCC is also exhausting quite rapidly. Not as crazy rate as APNIC but still pretty fast.
09:04:46 <Phantom_Hoover> YouTube won't let me create another account without my postcode.
09:08:21 <cheater97> yeah, would be nice to be living there, wouldn't it?
09:09:05 <cheater97> almost got a job next to number 10, but didn't feel like moving back to london
09:12:48 <Ilari> What's SW1A 2AA? Some special code?
09:13:46 <Ilari> Heh, reminds me of 90210 in US zip codes. That isn't special (but seems very popular nevertheless). :-)
09:23:16 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
09:29:23 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Using Plato's detailed account of Atlantis as a map, searches have focused on the Mediterranean and Atlantic as the best possible sites for the city.]]
09:35:47 -!- asiekierka has joined.
09:36:20 -!- aloril has joined.
09:55:57 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
09:56:00 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
09:57:35 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
11:10:44 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
11:36:48 -!- FireFly has joined.
11:43:45 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
12:14:54 -!- elliott has joined.
12:15:35 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | And, uh, well, not the entire compiler, I guess..
12:16:29 <elliott> 23:12:23 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, so, uh, circuscheme.
12:16:30 <elliott> 23:15:28 <Phantom_Hoover> How do you have an uncountably infinite tree?
12:17:03 <elliott> 23:18:00 <ais523> hmm, that might be one reason why people like axiom-of-choiceless systems
12:17:03 <elliott> 23:18:06 <ais523> even though they don't seem to correspond to reality too well
12:17:12 <Phantom_Hoover> So, what was he going on about countably infinite trees for?
12:17:14 <elliott> I hope you're not referring to Banach-Tarski
12:17:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: because that's what they are
12:17:51 <elliott> 23:36:58 <oerjan> <elliott> *two people never modify a file in the exact same way*; that's not a realistic user case. <-- um what if there's a single, obvious fix to a bug?
12:17:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, hm? Banach-Tarski would be an argument that systems with choice don't correspond to reality.
12:18:06 <elliott> oerjan: that's possible, but even if the exact same change was made, you can trivially merge them
12:18:13 <elliott> just, sg's algorithm can't
12:18:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It is NOT.
12:18:30 <elliott> *You* *cannot* *do* *that* *to* *physical* *spheres*.
12:18:38 <elliott> Which is why I'm hoping ais doesn't mean it.
12:18:56 <Phantom_Hoover> *But* if you're going to argue of choice or ¬choice corresponds to reality, Banach-Tarski would be an argument for ¬choice.
12:19:03 <elliott> (i.e. you cannot deconstruct a ball into such "pieces" IRL)
12:19:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no, banach-tarski wouldn't be either way
12:19:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, OK, but *if you decided to use it either way, it would be for ¬choice*.
12:19:44 <oklopol> "[14:00:45] <elliott> 23:15:28 <Phantom_Hoover> How do you have an uncountably infinite tree?" by having one?
12:19:44 <elliott> I can still be hoping that ais won't use such a stupid argument.
12:20:10 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, that's my point, he couldn't be, since he's saying that ¬choice doesn't correspond to reality.
12:20:21 <Phantom_Hoover> So he wouldn't use Banach-Tarski to argue it even if he was an idiot.
12:20:34 <elliott> I thought he said choice_ful_
12:20:42 <oklopol> but if degrees are finite, then every connected component must be countable
12:20:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: unless he thinks he can duplicate spheres :D
12:20:55 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | What should rem-0 be in funge? Taking /0 = 0 and thus 0?.
12:21:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, YouTube requires a post code to create an account. Comment.
12:22:29 <elliott> Step 1. Make Google Account. Step 2. There is no
12:23:37 <oklopol> if a tree is uncountable, then of course there even has to be a vertex of uncountable degree, because a countable union of countable sets is countable
12:24:00 <oklopol> same for graphs in general
12:31:54 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, so how would you do evaluation order in circuscheme?
12:33:21 -!- cpressey has joined.
12:33:38 <elliott> how long does this conference laugh
12:33:42 <oklopol> a value is assigned to every node such that for every node, its value is the value of its operations done on the values of its children
12:33:56 * Phantom_Hoover attempts incompetently to convince the FlightGear IRC channel that XML is not a terribly good format for storing trees.
12:34:00 <oklopol> this is done nondeterministically
12:34:05 <cpressey> guten morgen fraulein, sprechen sie PYTHON??!??
12:34:38 <elliott> cpressey: please tell me you translated all the keywords to german
12:42:20 <cpressey> '<oklopol> "[14:00:45] <elliott> 23:15:28 <Phantom_Hoover> How do you have an uncountably infinite tree?"' <- have a countably infinite number of branches at each node? at a guess.
12:43:15 <cpressey> and yes, rem-0 should be 0, logically.
12:44:05 <elliott> i gave in and implemented funge-98.
12:44:07 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/japan-quake-2011/beforeafter.htm
12:44:11 <elliott> it's even reasonably fast!!!!!1
12:44:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Conclusion: the tsunami has turned Japan into Gears of War.
12:44:31 <elliott> it's stalled on like... implementing TOYS or something else non-trivial
12:44:45 <oklopol> but the point is connectivity is defined by finite paths, so connected components will be countable unless you have uncountable degrees locally, somewhere
12:44:47 <cpressey> i guess the acid test is what mycology says about it
12:44:58 <elliott> cpressey: I pretty much coded to Mycology, so yeah :P
12:45:15 <elliott> All GOOD including the handful of fingerprints. Really Mycology is a metacircular specification
12:45:21 <elliott> Having almost no relation to the spec :)
12:45:37 <elliott> (OK, OK, so most of the unambiguous cases are obvious.)
12:46:22 <elliott> cpressey: It defines the language it's written in.
12:46:33 <cpressey> oklopol: right, only one node, as long as you also have infinite paths downard
12:46:34 <elliott> It's an executable, metacircular semantics, serving as the specification of Mycology Funge-98.
12:46:45 <oklopol> cpressey: erm, or finite ones
12:46:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: because when the spec is ambiguous, it makes up its own interpretation, or if the spec says you must d o something totally useless
12:46:54 <elliott> it goes with the more useful interpretation
12:47:20 <cpressey> oklopol: er - what if you have a root node, with a countably infinite number of children, but they're all leafs? that's not uncountable
12:47:20 <oklopol> say take V = R \cup \{z\}, and E = R \times \{z\}
12:47:41 <oklopol> "have a countably infinite number of branches at each node? at a guess." sorry, misread
12:47:56 <oklopol> it doesn't help to have COUNTABLE degrees at each node
12:48:00 <cpressey> oh, if you have UNcountably infinite branches at one node, then yes the tree is uncountable :)
12:48:04 <oklopol> you will have to have at least one node with uncountable degree
12:48:31 <cpressey> ok, i believe you :) it was just a guess
12:48:46 <oklopol> because for all k, the set of nodes you can reach with a path of length k or less will be countable, if all degrees are
12:49:05 <oklopol> and the whole graph's vertices are a union of a countable number of these countable sets
12:49:11 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
12:49:18 <oklopol> so the whole graph is countable. assuming it was connected.
12:49:33 -!- FireFly has joined.
12:49:43 <cpressey> but it seems like you could represent the reals in it... someh
12:50:09 <oklopol> see there's no node at the end of your infinite paths
12:50:44 <oklopol> you have an infinite path in the graph, but any node on it is still reachable in a finite amount of steps
12:50:51 <cpressey> but there's no last digit in pi either
12:51:02 <oklopol> ...and the length of pi is countable
12:51:30 <oklopol> you can't biject reals with the digits of pi just like you can't biject them with this graph
12:51:50 <oklopol> if this confuses you, read a book on set theory, this can be a bit mind-blowing at first
12:52:07 <Phantom_Hoover> If you didn't have a reason to punch Randall Munroe in the face already, you will now.
12:52:33 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, are you confused as to countable vs. uncountable infinity?
12:52:45 <oklopol> cpressey: all you have to know is i gave you a proof of countability, if you don't believe it, tell me where the error is, not where your intuition disagrees
12:54:22 <cpressey> elliott: it wouldn't occur to me to use that phrase; possibly because funge doesn't know what GOOD means.
12:55:05 <cpressey> elliott: also, I assume by "funge-98" you mean you implemented Une-, Be-, and Tre-
12:55:14 <cpressey> elliott: the phrase "metacircular etc"
12:55:32 <elliott> cpressey: It's a program, that when run, prints out lots of GOOD or BAD lines according to whether the interpreter is correct or not.
12:56:00 <elliott> cpressey: Occasionally it contradicts the literal word of the Funge-98 specification when it says something particularly stupid; occasionally it makes up its own interpretation when there is extreme ambiguity.
12:56:06 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, FWIW, the *set* of all infinite graphs is uncountable.
12:56:06 <elliott> Therefore it defines its own language.
12:56:12 <elliott> It is not executable semantics for a language.
12:56:15 <elliott> But it is an executable specification.
12:56:22 <cpressey> elliott: my point was you have to know what GOOD means to interpret its rest
12:56:39 <elliott> It's a predicate Myco that takes an interpreter I and returns whether that's a valid interpreter. You run it by doing I(Myco).
12:56:54 <elliott> cpressey: Well, that's no more of a problem than the fact that the C++ spec is written in English.
12:57:14 <cpressey> elliott: would you call the C++ spec metacircular
12:57:15 <elliott> cpressey: Of course a metacircular specification is not a very useful thing without any outside pointers, because the program could mean literally anything :)
12:57:31 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: ON A VERY NON-PEDANTIC NOTE, THE CLASS OF ALL GRAPHS IS A PROPER CLASS
12:57:41 <elliott> It's more of a joke than anything, but if you implement the Funge-98 spec to the letter, then you'll be able to run Mycology and get enough info to make it pass :-P
12:58:02 <elliott> the place where it literally contradicts the spec, btw, is in y
12:58:04 <cpressey> < cpressey> elliott: also, I assume by "funge-98" you mean you implemented Une-, Be-, and Tre-
12:58:23 <elliott> cpressey: I replied, didn't I? Maybe it's in my paste-buffer.
12:58:31 <elliott> cpressey: I implemented Befunge, but plan to extend it to N-funge for any N.
12:58:36 <elliott> Language::Befunge does this
12:58:45 <elliott> I also plan to implement TRDS, because I'm a madman.
12:58:58 <elliott> here's the bit that Mycology contradicts... except actually the spec contradicts itself
12:59:00 <cpressey> you're aspiring to be the next AnMaster
12:59:01 <elliott> 13. 1 vector containing the least point which contains a non-space cell, relative to the origin (env)
12:59:02 <elliott> 1 vector containing the greatest point which contains a non-space cell, relative to the least point (env)
12:59:02 <elliott> These two vectors are useful to give to the o instruction to output the entire program source as a text file.
12:59:07 <elliott> *14. 1 vector (for the second)
12:59:15 <Phantom_Hoover> [[I usually respond to someone else doing something good by figuring out a reason that they're not really as good as they seem.]]
12:59:20 <elliott> now, by the literal reading of the spec, #13 and #14 should always have an ACTUAL NON-SPACE CHARACTER there
12:59:24 <elliott> i.e. it's not the tightest square bounds
12:59:36 <elliott> it's just the tightest x and y for which there is another coordinate that goes with it to return a non-space cell
12:59:42 <elliott> but then it says "These two vectors are useful to give to the o instruction to output the entire program source as a text file."
13:00:12 <elliott> #13 should be the smallest (x,y) that contains a non-space cell
13:00:24 <elliott> the smallest (x,y) such that when paired with #14, all non-space cells are contained within
13:00:33 <elliott> ...but the o line, depending on how perversely you're willing to interpret useful, means it MUST be a rectangular bound, as intended
13:00:43 <elliott> and mycology takes that interpretation, which is totally lame
13:00:49 <cpressey> elliott: with all the interesting ideas you have, why on earth did you implement Befunge-98
13:00:52 <elliott> hi, you've all stopped listening :)
13:00:53 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: yeah that's kind of an interesting thing to say
13:01:00 <elliott> cpressey: It sounded like fun.
13:01:07 <elliott> cpressey: I do lots of stupid things.
13:01:11 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, best part is that he's not averse to doing good things himself.
13:01:19 <oklopol> yeah elliott is pretty stupid
13:01:31 <elliott> cpressey: It's less than 4000 lines of Haskell including fingerprints, and I got to use several type system extensions, so I can definitively state that implementing Befunge-98 is trivial.
13:01:46 <elliott> (A problem is non-trivial when it takes over 5,000 lines of Haskell to implement.)
13:01:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I really hope he gets tonnes of people telling him how funding that school in Africa is nothing to be proud of.
13:02:45 <oklopol> does he sport that on the webpage or something?
13:03:18 <elliott> cpressey: AFAICT implementing Funge-98 is actually interesting, just not in the parts that matter
13:03:28 <elliott> interesting things include efficient fungespace structures
13:03:39 <elliott> uninteresting things include all the instructions :)
13:03:42 <cpressey> how can it be both interesting and trivial?
13:04:00 <elliott> cpressey: I think that's a deeper question than you intended.
13:04:23 <elliott> Fermat's Last Theorem is pretty trivial.
13:04:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god I'm having another attack of "I can't realistically go to university for another year and a half and I'll have all but one of the qualifications I actually need by this summer."
13:04:44 <cpressey> can you implement it in less than 5kloc of hskell?
13:04:52 <elliott> That the only proof we have isn't is irrelevant.
13:05:01 <elliott> (Well, it's relevant; it contributes to the interestingness.)
13:05:06 <oklopol> well i assumed you meant the implementation. i mean you didn't say *befunge* is trivial, you said implementing it is
13:05:19 <oklopol> befunge being trivial, and implementing it being interesting have nothing to do with each other
13:05:29 <Phantom_Hoover> The theorem *itself* isn't trivial in the sense of "has no other use in mathematics"; the proof alone demonstrates this.
13:05:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's trivial in statement.
13:05:52 <elliott> cpressey: Anyway, I haven't _written_ a fancy fungespace structure :)
13:06:00 <elliott> Just a decent enough one so far to pass Mycology.
13:06:07 <oklopol> oh so the actual theorem is both interesting and trivial, right
13:06:12 <elliott> It still has pathological cases.
13:06:14 <oklopol> i thought you mean the interesting thing was the proof
13:06:26 <elliott> oklopol: the fact that the proof is so complicated contributes to the interestingness of the theorem though, IMO
13:06:36 <elliott> because the theorem is so trivial
13:06:49 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, and the method of the proof also increases the interestingness.
13:07:14 <elliott> yes! now let's all pretend we understand the proof
13:07:32 <Phantom_Hoover> After all, in its original statement it's just a rather isolated number theory thing with none of the vastness of the influence it actually has
13:07:45 <Phantom_Hoover> And surely we all understand the *outline* of the proof?
13:07:56 <elliott> Vaguely, I didn't really look too hard
13:08:09 <elliott> oklopol: so which are you gonna prove the riemann hypothesis to be when you grow up, false or true
13:08:38 <cpressey> he's going to prove it to be trivial
13:08:46 <elliott> by implementing it in Haskell?
13:08:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Nah, the Riemann hypothesis isn't trivial in statement.
13:09:31 <elliott> it requires complexes, it's not trivial
13:10:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, OK, but once you have the reals you have the complexes trivially.
13:10:54 <oklopol> "<Phantom_Hoover> And surely we all understand the *outline* of the proof?" << no never heard it, what is it?
13:11:55 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: please summarize the outline of the proof for oklopol's benefit
13:12:02 <oklopol> here's how much i know: elliptic something
13:12:10 <elliott> i'll wait until Phantom_Hoover finishes, then ask cpressey for the tl;dr
13:12:26 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, if there exists a solution to the equation, that implies there exists a certain elliptic equation which cannot be modular.
13:12:35 <elliott> cpressey: btw if i hadn't been implementing befunge-98 i'd have been playing minecraft, so it was probably a positive use of my time :)
13:12:49 <oklopol> what what's an elliptic equation? always wondered but never checked
13:12:54 <elliott> wonder how long amazon shipping takes, like a year prolly
13:13:03 <cpressey> elliott: you just keep believing that
13:13:26 <elliott> cpressey: i'm not quite sure you understand just what a waste of time minecraft is
13:13:30 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, I don't know, really. They're a certain form of equation with interesting behaviour which has nothing to do with ellipses directly.
13:13:55 <oklopol> okay, i have this hunch it's just a third degree equation with multiple variables and some extra shit
13:14:24 <Phantom_Hoover> And modular forms are something to do with complex analysis and group theory and maybe topology.
13:14:49 <Phantom_Hoover> And Taniyama-Shimura says that they're equivalent in a specific way.
13:15:05 <oklopol> http://www.xkcd.com/865/ me like
13:15:26 <oklopol> what are equivalent in a specific way?
13:16:22 <oklopol> some crazy shit they got there
13:16:42 <elliott> oklopol: that one was a pretty good xkcd for recently
13:16:49 <Phantom_Hoover> ISTR they have some generator thingy which happen to correspond perfectly, and the conjecture was that that the generator thingy for elliptic equations would always correspond to a generator thingy for a modular form.
13:16:55 <oklopol> we had this fun little course by some famous guy about automata in number theory so now i'm all about decimal expansions temporarily
13:17:10 <elliott> i love how this has gone from
13:17:11 <oklopol> i occasionally like numbers, but i suck at that stuff :(
13:17:15 <elliott> <PH> we all know the thing of the thing right?
13:17:43 <elliott> i have difficulty keeping track of my words.
13:18:01 <elliott> cpressey: generators, the best thing ever!!
13:18:09 <Phantom_Hoover> But anyway, you can get an elliptic equation the generator thingy of which cannot correspond to a modular form, so ¬Fermat → ¬Taniyama-Shimura.
13:18:56 <Phantom_Hoover> So Taniyama-Shimura → Fermat, and Wiles' proof is a proof of a sufficient subproblem of Taniyama-Shimura.
13:18:58 <oklopol> do you have any kind of intuition for what this generator thingy is? i mean i don't see how an equation can have a generator of any kind
13:20:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i... newsletter, can is ign up
13:20:36 <cpressey> NO YOU ARE WRONG. CPRESSEY=PHANTOM_HOOVER
13:20:45 <oklopol> did wiles prove that in certain cases, the generator thingy of an elliptic equation (curve?) corresponds to one of a modular form, and that if fermat is not true, then you find an elliptic equation of this form such that you can't find a modular form for it?
13:21:17 <elliott> wiles proved he's a wily fox
13:21:29 <Phantom_Hoover> The Fermat-to-elliptic-curve thing was proven by someone else.
13:21:31 <elliott> <cpressey> NO YOU ARE WRONG. CPRESSEY=PHANTOM_HOOVER
13:21:34 <oklopol> there is a course on elliptic curves in our uni occasionally, but i think it's more about its applications in coding theory
13:21:40 <elliott> is ph you pretending to be an irritating kid, because that's really funny
13:21:47 <cpressey> anyone know what this generator thingy is called or based in
13:21:47 <elliott> or whatever the kids do these days
13:22:20 <elliott> i don't want to be technologised.
13:22:34 <oklopol> well i'm still wondering about the generator thingy too, are we talking about some sort of generating set w.r.t. some operation, that generates the set of solutions to an elliptic equation or what?
13:22:57 <elliott> can't wait until facebook reinvents ir
13:23:01 <elliott> probably they already have
13:23:15 <elliott> fun fact, only lamers make up their own swatting insrtument
13:23:21 <elliott> mostly cuz vorpal did it first
13:23:35 <Phantom_Hoover> I didn't, I stuck oerjan's swatting instruments together.
13:23:37 <oklopol> argh, now i wanna know how fermat is proved :(
13:24:30 <cpressey> "software without software: the zen of softwareless software"
13:24:33 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, well, I got this from a book which was (highbrow) pop mathematics, so I'm by no means an expert.
13:24:56 <cheater97> cpressey: i heard people who invented computers hard-wired them to prevent the tabs vs spaces dispute.
13:25:09 <elliott> cpressey: i can't decide whether love or hate
13:25:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, y'know, not going over the same thing fifty times because you can't depend on the audience having paid attention.
13:26:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: he used to be a pop star, he's used to making money by repeating the same thing over and over again for three minutes
13:28:10 <cpressey> that movie had nothing to do with spotting trains
13:28:20 -!- hirnstein has joined.
13:28:34 <elliott> i hope some old conservative trainspotters went and saw it or something
13:29:04 <elliott> Wikipedia: There are still some pure 'trainspotters' (see below), but a large proportion of UK enthusiasts have wider interests than mere 'spotting'.
13:29:17 <oklopol> "[15:08:50] <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, well, I got this from a book which was (highbrow) pop mathematics, so I'm by no means an expert." <<< well of course you did, no one's crazy enough to actually read the proof; i'm just wondering if the book used a fancier term than generator thingy that i can google :)
13:29:37 <cheater97> cpressey: it was the hobby of the uncle of the kid who can't run away from the shop at the beginning
13:29:41 <elliott> and then scrolling really fast to the bottom
13:29:58 <elliott> still took like three minutes
13:30:03 <oklopol> wait what is "highbrow" pop mathematics?
13:30:05 <Phantom_Hoover> No idea what the corresponding thing is for modular form.
13:30:08 <oklopol> like, has some details in there
13:30:17 <cheater97> Phantom_Hoover: god damnit stop saying the same words as i!
13:30:22 <cpressey> one of these http://www.ncomputing.com/products-lseries
13:31:25 <cheater97> 3333333333333333333333333333333333
13:32:24 <Phantom_Hoover> What, they renamed the Taniyama-Shimura Conjecture to the modularity theorem?
13:32:49 <oklopol> i dislike using people's names in theorems
13:33:00 <cpressey> gasp! DISQUS IS NOT IN THE CLOUD
13:33:11 <cheater97> on the one hand every second theorem is euler's theorem
13:33:19 <elliott> cpressey: nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
13:33:32 <cheater97> on the other it's the Mzxdzszszszsz theorem, try and pronounce it.
13:33:33 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, have you seen those stupid "to the Cloud!" Windows ads and raged at them accordingly?
13:33:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i just want Windows 8 Cloud
13:33:56 <elliott> that runs by downloading the code for everything from microsoft servers
13:34:00 <elliott> and then uploading it to another server
13:34:16 <cpressey> Euler's Taniyama-Shimura Modularity Theorem
13:34:36 <elliott> can we just prefix Euler's in front of everything in mathematics?
13:34:38 <cheater97> cpressey: almost. you need to find the kanji for the names.
13:34:46 <elliott> in fact, just call all constants Euler's constant
13:34:49 <elliott> and all theorems Euler's theorem
13:34:50 <cheater97> cpressey: and then have a german maths student pronounce it.
13:34:59 -!- Zuu has joined.
13:35:23 <cpressey> i need to do stuff (this is a general statement)
13:36:04 <cpressey> cheater97: that's what that shoe company tells me, too
13:36:22 <elliott> cpressey: you should visit here more often, so that such silly thoughts of "doing things" are quickly forgotten
13:37:16 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | asiekierka, not in funge 93.
13:37:19 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | "Hello from my TABLET!!!".
13:37:22 <oklopol> i has exam tomorrow so i'm probably going to go real soon.
13:37:44 <elliott> oklopol: so i actually bought the book, WHO'S DEDICATED *NOW*
13:38:07 <elliott> i kinda just tend to assume he'll doperfectly
13:38:10 <oklopol> elliott: how many buttons did you have to press?
13:38:10 <cheater97> oklopol: bad luck! i hope you crash and burn.
13:38:22 <oklopol> elliott: i had a mistake in my graph theory exam
13:38:25 <elliott> it was a very stressful clicky experience
13:38:34 <cheater97> (it's an old student custom to wish bad luck on exams otherwise you might spoil it)
13:38:47 <cpressey> oklopol: oh, i just saw why that tree thing isn't uncountable :)
13:38:48 <elliott> give them ALL THE FUCKING DETAILS
13:38:54 <elliott> prove everything from the peano axioms from scratch
13:39:02 <cpressey> weird, i wasn't even really thinking abotu ti
13:39:04 <oklopol> cpressey: oh so you read my one line proof already?
13:40:01 <elliott> this touchpad would be nicer if ubuntu wasn't stupid about it
13:40:21 <oklopol> but um, in the ergodic theory exam i actually made this huge mistake, the theorem was not provable using my technique at all
13:40:51 <elliott> /ignore oklopol ;; too far
13:40:52 <oklopol> i don't think i'll ever get over that
13:41:08 <elliott> better put a sticky note on this laptop reminding me to never talk to oklopol again
13:41:09 <oklopol> i was like LOL SO EASY LOLOLOL
13:41:51 <oklopol> but turns out things were east because i had started my proof by essentially stating that for every three points A, B, C, B is between A and C in pretty much every possible sense
13:42:46 <cheater97> you have just degraded yourself in my eyes :D
13:43:00 <elliott> oklopol is not very clever.
13:43:08 <elliott> never learned the alphabet.
13:43:25 <oklopol> basically that meant i accidentally reversed a < and didn't notice because a certain theorem applied in such a nice way to the result
13:43:45 <oklopol> well i'm certainly not clever, i doubt i've ever claimed that
13:44:10 <cheater97> now i know there's a reason why there's "klop" in "oklopol"
13:44:35 <cpressey> "python" is an anagram of "hypnot", which is the first part of the name "hypnotoad", which is from an animated series which is known to refer to programming languages
13:46:28 <oklopol> i wonder if i have that ergodic theory exam paper anywhere, i can't seem to recall what the problem was...
13:46:33 <oklopol> should prolly ask ilkka tomorrow
13:46:35 <cpressey> "oklopol" is an anagram of... well i'm sure i'll find something
13:46:51 <oklopol> i'm sure he likes me using his name here
13:46:56 <oklopol> i shall call him mister x from now one
13:47:23 -!- hirnstein has left (?).
13:51:01 <oklopol> look-lop could be a verb i guess
13:51:02 -!- pikhq has joined.
13:51:17 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
13:51:26 <oklopol> looklop would make a great higher-order function
13:51:30 <oklopol> i'm not sure what it does though
13:52:25 <cpressey> what is it with pythonistas and list comprehensions? EVERY LANGUAGE HAS THOSE
13:52:45 <cpressey> but they just looooooooooooooooooooooooooove them
13:53:54 <cpressey> i'll have to find out why someday
13:55:59 -!- asiekierka has joined.
13:56:10 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
13:57:25 -!- elliott has joined.
13:58:26 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
14:06:28 <elliott> <cpressey> what is it with pythonistas and list comprehensions? EVERY LANGUAGE HAS THOSE
14:06:43 <elliott> all good languages have them
14:06:49 <elliott> but pythonistaaas have never used good languages
14:09:13 <elliott> Uhh... Erlang has them I think X-D
14:09:23 <elliott> I think cpressey's used Erlang, so yeah
14:23:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You could probably define it in Epigram... dunno about the syntax though :)
14:24:04 <elliott> You could do it with syntax in Agda.
14:24:22 <cheater97> php doesn't have list comprehensions!
14:27:36 -!- cpressey has joined.
14:28:09 <cpressey> oh and one more thing, INTROSPECT IS NOT A TRANSITIVE VERB
14:29:23 <cpressey> oklopol: what it was was that i saw how to diagonlize the tree i was building from the reals
14:29:33 -!- fungot has quit (Quit: more of them things).
14:29:41 <cpressey> see, it took me this long to even explain that part of it
14:30:00 <oklopol> how do you build a tree from the reals exactly?
14:30:26 <cpressey> well, i thought you could, but you can't. just like you can't build a table for them, classic diagonalization argument by whatshisname.
14:30:45 <oklopol> well who cares who did that obvious thing
14:30:49 <elliott> <cpressey> I CANNOT INTROSPECT YOU
14:30:58 <elliott> make a language based on objects introspecting other objects
14:30:59 <cpressey> elliott: AAAAIIIIRRRRGGGGGHHHHHhhh
14:31:13 <elliott> like, they cause the object to introspect itself and return what it sees
14:31:16 <oklopol> i think it was gdel's idea
14:31:17 <elliott> but the object itself can't use it
14:31:34 <elliott> (opposite of a public method, it's a ... something method?)
14:31:46 <cpressey> private-and-only-usable-by-others
14:32:02 <elliott> cpressey: no, objects can call their own private methods :P
14:32:13 <elliott> other objects can't call the private method
14:32:17 <elliott> so in fact it's the opposite of private
14:32:19 <oklopol> you saw how to diagonalize the tree you were building from the reals? can you elaborate, you take a tree with nodes tagged with reals and then what?
14:32:37 <cpressey> public-but-only-discoverable-through-"introspection"-by-others
14:32:50 <elliott> cpressey: I'm saying that the introspect method ITSELF would be this :P
14:33:00 <elliott> You would, of course, access all methods by finding a private method using the introspect method.
14:33:09 <elliott> cpressey: To call one of your OWN methods, you get another object to do it.
14:33:28 <oklopol> or do you use their decimal expansions or something?
14:33:29 <elliott> You do this by introspecting the other object (causing it to introspect itself), getting the appropriate method that ends up calling you, and passing yourself to it.
14:34:58 <elliott> cpressey: come on, this is genius.
14:35:00 <cpressey> oklopol: no, i took my original tree (countable # of children at each node, countably deep.) and... assigned decimal expansions to each path (every child is another digit in a countably long number). and... some flash of "you could read that tree and diagonalize to derive a path that isn't in it".
14:35:19 <elliott> only_other_objects_can_access, and private (which you use for public)
14:35:22 <cpressey> basically realizing it's not really different from the table from ... that guy
14:35:47 <oklopol> gdel, i thought you mean that
14:35:54 <oklopol> guy who doesn't believe in reals
14:36:03 <oklopol> gdel was crazy too, ofc, but not mathematically
14:36:27 <cpressey> starts with a k? i should look this up
14:37:20 <oklopol> gdel came up with similar ideas with the integers
14:37:48 <cpressey> "guy who doesn't believe in the reals" made me think of someone else
14:38:04 <cpressey> i had to look that one up though
14:38:14 <elliott> zeilberger is cooler though
14:38:17 <elliott> he doesn't believe in the integers :>
14:38:26 <cpressey> i don't believe in the integers
14:38:38 <oklopol> your graph thing is similar to something a crazy guy said once
14:38:43 <elliott> cpressey: that's an infinite set, it doesn't exist
14:39:25 <cpressey> elliott: much like aristotle, i have access to an infinitely powerful computer, so it exists for me
14:39:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: because they're infinite
14:39:37 <elliott> cpressey: you do? can I have an account?
14:40:00 <cpressey> elliott: sure thing. to start, just speak into the parrot
14:40:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: because he's an ultrafinitist/strong constructivist
14:40:26 <cpressey> elliott: make sure to close your eyes when the zebras run past
14:40:45 <elliott> cpressey: this is an interesting look into how prolonged exposure to Python damages the mind.
14:41:06 <cpressey> elliott: SNOW CRASH OMG U HAVE TO READ SNOW CRASH HAVE YOU READ SNOW CRASH???
14:41:28 <cpressey> this, list comprehensions, and introspecting other things.
14:41:48 <cpressey> oh, and a lot of dick-waving general nerdiness of course
14:42:04 <elliott> ooh, I was even _planning_ to read snow crash sometime
14:42:08 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: well, the "Con" part of it ends today. there is a "sprint" part that i'm not attending that continues the rest of this week
14:42:12 <elliott> "The book presents the Sumerian language as the firmware programming language for the brainstem, which is supposedly functioning as the BIOS for the human brain."
14:42:35 <elliott> "[No-Intro] Nintendo - Super Nintendo Entertainment System (20100805) [Various/1990]" FUCKYES
14:43:50 <elliott> wish i knew what merging is.
14:44:02 <cpressey> elliott: i'm really surprised that you don't have access to an infinitely powerful computer already, given how frequently you spell the letter E backwards, and A upside-down
14:44:16 <elliott> zzo38 has taken over cpressey's mind!
14:44:24 <elliott> or possibly, everyone else's.
14:44:25 <oklopol> also it was john gabriel http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2010/02/_so_remember_back_in.php
14:44:28 <cpressey> it takes some skill to misspell a letter
14:44:35 <oklopol> they're "discussing" that tree thing
14:44:42 <oklopol> very fruitful a conversation
14:44:58 <cpressey> it's taking time to load for me
14:45:51 <cpressey> rather, not loading at all. oh well. i know the usual "hi i'm an internet kook, here's why cantor was wrong" pattern
14:46:48 <cpressey> there was one rather spectacular display i saw, some usenet group, on google groups -- i'm sure it wasn't the only one
14:48:27 <oklopol> he's famous for being an incredibly retard
14:49:03 <elliott> i've probably even read it before
14:49:08 <elliott> but knol is basically crackpot heaven
14:49:21 <elliott> you can write anything you want, it looks like an encyclopedia, and nobody can edit it!!!!!!!
14:49:39 <elliott> it's Google's shitty shitsite
14:49:41 <elliott> cpressey: err, the person?
14:50:49 <cpressey> as long as he gets in long arguments about why cantor and/or godel were wrong because you can prove them wrong by programming in lambda calculus and also peano=penis... it doesn't really matter how many of him there are
14:51:25 <elliott> peano=penis? has anyone called him Penis please say yes
14:52:08 <cpressey> another vague memory that the peano numbers are due to peano having a name that is really "penis" in disguise
14:52:32 <cpressey> trying to find this "knol" fellow; google insists that "knol" is a unit of knowledge
14:52:38 <elliott> oh my god. now i want a radical feminist argument that the reals are countable
14:52:45 <elliott> based on mathematics being a patriarchy
14:52:50 <elliott> <cpressey> trying to find this "knol" fellow; google insists that "knol" is a unit of knowledge
14:52:57 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklopol> he's famous for being an incredibly retard ← the Good Math guy?
14:53:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: *MarkCC, and he's awesome
14:53:27 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: no, the guy he talks to behind that link
14:53:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, I was thinking that he didn't seem to be a retard from what I'd read.
14:54:02 <cpressey> scienceblogs seems to be completely down for me
14:55:17 <cpressey> sigh. googling for (peano penis lambda calculus) gets you #esoteric channel logs on the first page. :)
14:57:07 <cpressey> getting closer -- found an eric naggum thread on comp.lang.lisp -- still not nuts enough, though
14:57:38 <oklopol> 1. I do not think all the real numbers can be represented in any radix system.
14:57:38 <oklopol> 2. I think the reason that Cantor was unable to
14:57:38 <oklopol> show the real numbers are countable is due to the fact that real numbers are not well-defined.
14:57:38 <oklopol> For example, every rational number can be logically defined in terms of pairs of natural numbers (natural numbers are themselves special ratios that were derived from the concept of ratio, but this is another story). One can't do this with real numbers unless one assumes the same can be represented using radix systems.
14:57:38 <oklopol> 3. I DO NOT believe the real numbers are *countable* - surprised? Why? Because these are not *well-defined*. However, if one uses Cantor's reasoning (which is completely beserk), one can show logically as I have, that the real numbers are indeed countable.
14:57:38 <oklopol> I can just see you trying to swallow this one with your limited intellectual faculties.
14:58:57 <oklopol> possibly he's just being silly, but you shouldn't joke about math :\
14:59:13 <oklopol> math is where no one has to disagree and everyone happy
14:59:13 <cpressey> not without a *really* colourful wig on
15:02:16 <cpressey> http://www.flickr.com/photos/mochimedia/5318304839/ aaaand that pretty much sums up my disgust.
15:06:33 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
15:06:51 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
15:09:03 <elliott> befunge for garrysmod video what why
15:09:08 <elliott> <cpressey> getting closer -- found an eric naggum thread on comp.lang.lisp -- still not nuts enough, though
15:09:13 <elliott> erik, you damned merican >:D
15:09:48 <elliott> that video though at least shows what a befunge ide _should_ look like :)
15:10:27 <cpressey> i'm trying to find an implementation in java
15:11:33 <cpressey> Deewiant's page doesn't list any
15:11:50 <cpressey> google gives me lots of spam results "download free Befunge98 java"
15:12:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:15:38 <cpressey> yeah he even makes elliott look smart
15:19:32 <cpressey> as Gabriels go, I prefer Peter
15:21:01 <cpressey> screw this ima gonna build the ultimate save the world open source python package and upload it to pypi and everyone will send me patches and love and they'll offer me a job at google with guido and it will be the best ever package for totally doing that yeahh
15:21:02 -!- fungot has joined.
15:21:46 <cpressey> and it'll use rabbitmq somehow
15:22:40 <cpressey> elliott: i approve. that is the only appropriate response.
15:23:19 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, "i'm sorry. i'm so sorry." was in fact what he was going to say.
15:25:50 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: i have reconsidered. i will also consider that response to be appropriate
15:26:36 -!- iconmaster has joined.
15:26:38 <elliott> cpressey: What about "*tears well up* ... *silence* I'll tell the Internet."
15:28:33 <cpressey> http://www.focus.com/briefs/software-development/12-coding-languages/
15:28:55 <cpressey> as much as i don't like this crowd, at least they're not THAT.
15:29:58 <cpressey> dude does not seem to understand something fundamental about why half the languages on that list were created
15:33:01 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
15:36:56 -!- copumpkin has joined.
15:37:33 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, you'll probably want to stock up on stuff. Quickly.
15:40:58 <elliott> Just aim the Device at everything.
15:41:20 <elliott> "who, for programmers, sure knew how to throw around the personal attacks and backbiting"
15:41:24 <elliott> programmers aren't known to be dicks?
15:41:29 <elliott> what is this alternate universe I'm living in
15:41:45 <elliott> seriously though, is this how new professions are formed? WHY IS OUR ENTIRE FIELD FILLED WITH CHILDREN
15:41:54 <elliott> (apart from the good children, you know)
15:42:24 <elliott> HAHAHAHAAHAHA I love how the befunge example loses all its spacing
15:42:34 <elliott> "Befunge remained virtually impossible to compile until very recently"
15:42:43 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I don't think you understand how the re-stabilised abelianiser works on the zygomorphic manifold.
15:43:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Aiming the Device works the other way around to everything else.
15:43:12 <elliott> Do they know of jitfunge? :p
15:44:20 <elliott> Unlike some of the other languages on our list, VMRL had some wide audience appeal and the potential for a lot more. At its height in 1997, VMRL was occasionally used in personal home pages and on some 3D chat sites such as "CyberTown."
15:44:27 <elliott> aoijsvkdnlghrtw-m049geisfdjiovxjknm please let sgeo not see this
15:44:34 <elliott> "Yes, I know that Haskell is a relatively popular language compared to the other flops on this list. That said, Haskell has always had the feel of an also-ran language, despite its small but strong (and vocal) fans."
15:44:36 <elliott> this is going to be painful
15:44:59 <elliott> HASKELL IS NOT DEAD YOU MORON
15:45:01 <elliott> gbnjHG|F';louri5ye4oaw0da]
15:45:05 <elliott> 'f,gmhjkfwodlpax,jcrdepkjhfgjdxlzkjdfhgcszl,mskjhr4nemdcfyk,iol.,y
15:45:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it calls delphi dead
15:45:48 -!- cpressey has joined.
15:46:06 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, good news, you're not going to get Deviced today.
15:46:07 <elliott> i moved my hands wildly around my keyboard in lieu of replying MULTIPLE TIMES
15:46:14 <elliott> cpressey: the one you linked to
15:46:41 <cpressey> perspective, it's all about keeping it in perspective
15:46:51 <elliott> cpressey: READ THE LOGS lest i have to repeat all my hilarious comments. ok they're not hilarious
15:47:08 <elliott> cpressey: i like how the befunge example lost all spacing
15:47:16 <elliott> i would like to live in a world where befunge programs are shared via html renderings
15:47:23 <elliott> and piecing together the control flow is the receiver's problem
15:47:40 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, how do you know about the Device's projective calibration of tensor rings?
15:49:16 <cpressey> oh yes, that logread was quite enjoyable
15:50:30 <cpressey> goddammit i meant to type "atricle"
15:50:43 <cpressey> i seriously typo'd an intentional re-typo
15:57:12 <cpressey> If only PyFunge were implemented in ruby or something
15:57:42 <cpressey> And if only there was a RubyFunge and it was implemented in ... uh....
15:58:07 <cpressey> seriously, as it stands, this is way too predictable
15:59:23 <cpressey> ok I have to figure out a way to pack up all my shit^H^H^Hwag
16:00:28 <cpressey> and... something you punch out and clip together, from Disney.
16:00:48 <cpressey> and a bunch of junk mail, basically
16:01:17 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
16:09:54 <elliott> hello.c++:36:5: error: inconsistent deduction for ‘auto’: ‘std::vector<std::basic_string<char> >’ and then ‘__gnu_cxx::__normal_iterator<std::basic_string<char>*, std::vector<std::basic_string<char> > >’
16:09:54 <elliott> hello.c++:36:5: error: inconsistent deduction for ‘auto’: ‘std::vector<std::basic_string<char> >’ and then ‘__gnu_cxx::__normal_iterator<std::basic_string<char>*, std::vector<std::basic_string<char> > >’
16:10:25 <elliott> well ostensibly. it's grown to calculating factorials. this is to iterate through a list.
16:10:58 <elliott> WAITWAITWAIT I think I can use statement expressions
16:11:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Because all good hello world programs should calculate factorials!
16:11:58 <elliott> #define each(elem, container) each_(elem, container, __COUNTER__)
16:12:00 <elliott> #define each_(elem, container, i_) each__(elem, container, i_)
16:12:00 <elliott> #define each__(elem, container, i) \
16:12:00 <elliott> for (auto each__container__ ## i = (container), \
16:12:00 <elliott> each__iter__ ## i = (each__container__ ## i).begin(), \
16:12:00 <elliott> each__end__ ## i = (each__container__ ## i).end(); \
16:12:01 <elliott> (each__iter__ ## i) != (each__end__## i); \
16:12:04 <elliott> for (auto each__fake__ ## i = true, & elem = *(each__iter__ ## i); \
16:12:15 <elliott> (each__fake__ ## i) = false)
16:12:15 <elliott> But C++0x doesn't like you using "auto" to declare two things of a different type, as it turns out
16:12:37 <elliott> Commonly called cpp in restricted areas such as file extensions and domain names!
16:13:35 <elliott> i bet boost has something like this
16:14:17 <elliott> love how i can't load the full log for today due to slow internet on my logbot
16:14:34 <elliott> I bet coppro knows how to do this :P
16:21:42 <Sgeo> elliott wanted to hide something from me
16:23:18 <Sgeo> It's either something I already know about VRML, or some claim that Haskell is dead
16:25:28 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:26:09 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:28:44 <Sgeo> By saying "please let sgeo not see this"
16:30:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Presumably because it mentioned one of your obsessions.
16:31:17 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:33:32 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:34:36 <elliott> for (declare_variable<auto> declare__variable__1(args); declare__variable__1.fake;) for (auto each__container__0 = declare__variable__1.value; declare__variable__1.fake; declare__variable__1.fake = false) for (declare_variable<auto> declare__variable__2(each__container__0.begin()); declare__variable__2.fake;) for (auto each__iter__0 = declare__variable__2.value; declare__variable__2.fake; declare__variable__2.fake = false) for (declare_variab
16:34:36 <elliott> le<auto> declare__variable__3(each__container__0.end()); declare__variable__3.fake;) for (auto each__end__0 = declare__variable__3.value; declare__variable__3.fake; declare__variable__3.fake = false) for (; each__iter__0 != each__end__0; ++each__iter__i) for (declare_variable<auto&> declare__variable__4(*each__iter__i); declare__variable__4.fake;) for (auto& arg = declare__variable__4.value; declare__variable__4.fake; declare__variable__4.fake =
16:35:42 <elliott> coppro: This will totally make more sense when it works, trust me :P
16:36:02 <ais523> declare_variable<auto> looks worryingly C++ish, to me
16:36:07 <elliott> #define DECLARE__(type_, name_, value_, i_) \
16:36:07 <elliott> for (declare_variable<type_> declare__variable__##i_(value_); \
16:36:08 <elliott> declare__variable__##i_.fake;) \
16:36:10 <ais523> in fact, the whole thing there looks like C++
16:36:10 <elliott> for (type_ name_ = declare__variable__##i_.value; \
16:36:12 <elliott> declare__variable__##i_.fake; \
16:36:14 <elliott> declare__variable__##i_.fake = false)
16:36:16 <elliott> may help elaborate on what 90% of that is doing
16:36:20 <elliott> I'm writing the Best C++ Program Ever.
16:36:21 <ais523> thus, I will refrain from trying to understand it for the sake of the rest of my sanity
16:36:34 <elliott> This is me implementing a C++0x feature that GCC doesn't have right now :P
16:36:36 <ais523> the reason there isn't an IOC++CC is that it'd be too easy
16:36:39 <elliott> (Well, almost-implementing it)
16:36:53 <coppro> elliott: you're not implementing it :P
16:37:02 <elliott> coppro: Basically DECLARE() lets you do a let block :P
16:37:12 <elliott> With a for loop that only runs for one iteration.
16:37:45 <elliott> hello.c++:50:5: error: invalid use of ‘auto’
16:37:54 <elliott> All the 23498723489234 errors are from that same line and column :P
16:38:16 <elliott> hello.c++:50:5: error: request for member ‘fake’ in ‘declare__variable__4’, which is of non-class type ‘int’
16:38:23 <elliott> for (declare_variable<type_> declare__variable__##i_(value_); \
16:38:26 <elliott> Doesn't look like it from here, bro.
16:38:42 <elliott> Unless I'm using templates wrong :P
16:39:00 <elliott> ais523: C++ is my favourite esolang
16:39:45 <ais523> oh, last Thursday I actually saw Valgrind tell off one of my students (it was running on a CUDA program, which is basically C with some extra constructs)
16:40:06 <ais523> "More than 10000000 errors detected. Future errors will not be reported. Go fix your program!" or something like that
16:41:50 <ais523> luckily, it didn't try to print all of the ten million previous errors
16:41:53 <ais523> or we'd have been there for ages
16:42:30 <olsner> the question is, how did they keep it running while producing all these errors
16:43:03 <olsner> cleverly mismanaging memory not to crash?
16:43:10 <elliott> structs can be templated right? :)
16:43:11 <ais523> for a bit of context, as far as I can tell the program was an attempt to write a complicated program in one go without even intermediate compiles
16:43:15 <ais523> followed by fixing all the compile errors
16:43:23 <olsner> elliott: yes, structs are classes that default to public
16:43:52 <ais523> and getting really basic things wrong, like mixing up pointers to CPU and GPU memory (which point into entirely different memory spaces)
16:45:09 <Deewiant> 10000000 is easy to get in a big program
16:45:30 <Deewiant> Just have a bunch of loops with off-by-one accesses
16:45:34 <olsner> reminds me of a story from uni, they had an intern there to write a new system for doing computer exams (get assignment from server, submit solutions, get graded, kind of thing)
16:45:47 <Deewiant> It doesn't even manifest as broken, necessarily
16:45:56 <olsner> he coded for half a year or something, in Ada (because that's what he knew) never compiled anything once
16:46:09 <elliott> Deewiant: Ehh... maybe if you had one really long loop :P
16:46:17 <elliott> olsner: and it worked the first time?
16:46:17 <olsner> then sent it to his supervisor and said "here you go, it's done now"
16:46:32 <olsner> no, no single part of it worked, obviously
16:46:46 <elliott> But that's not what the Ada people told me!
16:47:00 <Deewiant> elliott: Five reads and five writes a million times isn't "really long" :-P
16:47:00 <olsner> well, Ada works if you get it to compile
16:47:37 <elliott> I find the class ofbugs Ada tackles to be shallow and solved at the wrong level.
16:47:54 <elliott> The solution to mixing up loop indices is to make them unnecessary in 99% of cases (by adding foreach), not by giving them types :P
16:48:12 <olsner> people use to say the same things about Ada and Haskell, "hard as hell to make anything compile but when it does it works"
16:48:45 <elliott> Haskell does a better job of it than Agda IMO :P
16:49:02 <olsner> yes, haskell does it way better
16:49:29 <elliott> If GHC turned its warnings about incomplete pattern matches into errors, it'd do a much better job.
16:49:35 <coppro> ais523: wait; the compiler doesn't separately type CPU and GPU memory?
16:49:36 <elliott> As it stands, it does a better job if you use -Wall and religiously fix those mistakes.
16:49:39 <Sgeo> Are phantom types regularly used?
16:49:43 <elliott> (-Werror might be a bit much, GHC likes to warn a lot in my experience.)
16:49:56 <olsner> I think Ada is roughly equivalent to C++ in type safety, but Ada makes the unsafe stuff look worse by making it slightly more explicit and giving it scarier names
16:50:38 <Sgeo> Haskell has unsafe stuff too...
16:50:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I cannot possibly answer ;P
16:52:12 <olsner> Sgeo: so? pretty much everything has unsafe stuff...
16:52:15 <elliott> : value(value), fake(true)
16:52:25 <elliott> I wonder if that constructor might be wrong :P
16:52:51 <elliott> olsner: Oh, and if Haskell removed error and undefined.
16:53:00 <elliott> (Using exceptions everywhere instead -- ugly, but.)
16:53:18 <elliott> (Yes, you still have halting for _|_, but that's a lesser problem than e.g. each div requiring an if :P)
16:53:35 <olsner> hmm, aren't error and undefined already exceptions?
16:53:47 <olsner> but iirc you can only catch exceptions in IO
16:54:20 <elliott> pikhq_: Does bsnes no longer support .sfc or something? X_X
16:54:26 <elliott> It refuses to show them in this directory list.
16:54:39 <elliott> olsner: But they're not USEFUL exceptions :P
16:54:46 <elliott> i.e. ones you can catch individually
16:55:02 <elliott> olsner: Oh, and as hateful as it would be, something like Java's throws declarations in the type.
16:55:36 <elliott> With those three changes (force all pattern-matching to be complete, remove error and undefined, add "throws" declarations to function types) Haskell would do a way, way better job than Ada.
16:56:40 <olsner> was that supposed to be Ada or Agda? :P
16:58:20 <ais523> <coppro> ais523: wait; the compiler doesn't separately type CPU and GPU memory? <--- it's designed to be similar to C, you'd expect it to?
16:58:30 <ais523> it's basically just C with a few extra keywords and templates
16:59:29 <ais523> well, it doesn't steal most other C++ features
16:59:44 <elliott> so you use a c++ compiler with all the non-template stuff taken out?
16:59:59 <ais523> which I think expands to "NVidia C Compiler"
17:00:07 <ais523> but I'm not entirely sure what, if anything, it's based on
17:00:19 <elliott> ais523: so it actually has C++ templates?
17:00:49 <ais523> I doubt it's all the same features, because C++ is insane
17:01:03 <ais523> but it does the basic stuff, with the same syntax as C++
17:01:03 <coppro> ais523: if it has templates in particular, I'd expect it to type them differently, yes
17:01:26 <ais523> I think the templates might only take things like integers as parameters, not class names, due to not having classes and structs not really being the same
17:01:40 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:02:18 <coppro> elliott: yes, but you could use templates to overload on GPU/CPU pointers
17:02:18 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:02:44 <elliott> coppro: yes, but (1) that sounds gross and (2) those wouldn't look like normal pointers
17:02:51 <elliott> gpu pointer: oh_god_the_pain<int> foo;
17:03:05 <ais523> and you wouldn't be able to index one of them
17:03:12 <ais523> due to C not having operator overloading
17:03:18 <elliott> "int gpu *" would make sense, or "gpu int *"
17:03:23 <elliott> I'm not sure which would be appropriate
17:03:37 <elliott> what would make proper sense is using a language with real types and so avoiding C backwards compat entirely :)
17:04:35 <ais523> really, all this is far too high a level, they should be using Checkout
17:04:43 <ais523> except there aren't any impls of it yet
17:05:14 <elliott> http://xkcd.com/863/ ;; this is actually a good comic
17:05:30 <elliott> no punchline, but amusing and pretty well-paced
17:05:45 <elliott> ais523: of course functional languages are uniquely suited to GPUs >:)
17:05:52 <elliott> ais523: (functional languages that compile to Checkout, of course)
17:06:15 <elliott> Sgeo: I use phantom types occasionally
17:06:29 <ais523> well, Haskell parallelizes better than, say, Python
17:06:33 <elliott> But they're not really strictly phantom types
17:06:36 <coppro> elliott: yes, I would hope that gpu pointers would just be a keyword
17:06:49 <elliott> ais523: the point is that GPUs are essentially 349857349857394579834579835789347598347598347598347598347593475934857349573985-threaded CPUs :)
17:07:00 <elliott> with CPUs, automatic parallelisation is infeasible
17:07:04 <elliott> because there's too few threads to prioritise well
17:07:17 <ais523> they typically only actually run 256 threads at a time
17:07:22 <elliott> yes, but that's still a ton
17:07:24 <ais523> most of the interesting work is in switching between them quickly
17:07:41 <ais523> e.g. each thread has its own set of registers, to avoid having to save them anywhere when context switching
17:07:47 <ais523> so a context switch can be done in a single clock cycle
17:08:28 <elliott> ais523: how fast is spawning a thread on a GPU, incidentally?
17:08:56 <ais523> they're spawned statically, you need to work out how many you want in advance then they all spawn at once
17:09:28 <ais523> but if you have no threads, creating up to around a million threads can be done in a few microseconds
17:09:44 <ais523> although ofc that number can't run simultaneously, and will be somewhat sequentialised
17:10:06 <elliott> hmm, are GPUs good at anything OTHER than embarrassingly parallel problems? :)
17:10:17 <ais523> well, it doesn't have to be embarassingly parallel
17:10:24 <ais523> being moderately parallel is enough to have gains
17:10:34 <elliott> hmm, can you even DO shared memory on a gpu?
17:10:34 <ais523> but it still needs to parallelize somewhat
17:10:44 <ais523> yep, but it's slow and messy
17:10:54 <ais523> that's what checkout/2 between 3 and 5 does
17:10:54 <elliott> <ais523> being moderately parallel is enough to have gains
17:11:13 <elliott> um I just mean embarrassingly as in what was i going to say ...
17:11:23 <elliott> as in no communication between tasks
17:11:35 <ais523> ah, "embarassingly parallel" is a technical term, as in doubling every element in an array
17:11:38 <elliott> i.e. each thread completely independent of the others
17:11:50 <ais523> tasks like adding every element in an array together aren't embarassingly parallel, yet GPUs are still quite good at them
17:12:08 <elliott> (divide the array into N segments, sum sequentially, sum the results?)
17:12:13 <elliott> sum each segment in a thread
17:12:17 <elliott> where the thread does it sequentially
17:12:20 <ais523> no, it's much more complex than that
17:12:37 <ais523> especially when you take thread blocks into account
17:12:49 <ais523> which are groups of threads that are capable of cooperating closely, and have fast shared memory between them
17:12:54 <ais523> (those are the /3s of Checkout)
17:12:55 <elliott> in fact, I think every embarrassingly parallel problem takes the form of a pmap
17:13:05 <elliott> i.e. map that does every application in a thread
17:13:26 <ais523> yep, those sort of problems actually miss much of the point of GPUs
17:13:30 <ais523> because block memory is so massively important
17:13:37 <elliott> <ais523> which are groups of threads that are capable of cooperating closely, and have fast shared memory between them
17:13:46 <elliott> GPUs are bad at subtracting an entire array?
17:13:50 <elliott> i.e. this relies on commutativity :)
17:14:02 <ais523> what does subtracting an entire array even mean?
17:14:10 <elliott> ais523: umm, what does adding an entire array mean?
17:14:18 <elliott> subtracting an entire array = fold (-) something array
17:14:30 <elliott> or negating every element than summing
17:14:38 <elliott> (that just negates the zero)
17:14:44 <ais523> the point is that that is pretty much a commutative operation
17:14:50 <elliott> hmm, well, depends on your fold I guess
17:14:59 <elliott> the result on [a,b,c,d] != the result on [a,c,b,d]
17:15:15 <elliott> ais523: so you couldn't do even a small chunk in parallel using fast shared memory
17:15:19 <elliott> because you'd have to synchronise them
17:15:45 <ais523> oh, that's a + -b + c + -d + e + -f + g + -h, etc
17:16:01 <ais523> which still commutes pretty nicely, as you have information about which index into the original array an element is
17:16:28 <elliott> YES but I mean if you took the summing algorithm
17:16:32 <elliott> and replaced the + sign with a -
17:16:49 <elliott> because I bet it depends on all threads in a thread group being able to add to the shared counter without worrying about synchronisation
17:17:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose it's obvious that the votes for Reddit comments would decrease the further down the tree you went, but it interests me for some reason.
17:17:04 <ais523> it actually works in pairs
17:17:18 <ais523> so you do ((a+b) + (c+d)) + ((e+f) + (g+h)), etc
17:17:32 <ais523> doing that within a block by first using all threads, then half the threads, then a quarter of the threads, etc.
17:17:55 <coppro> how do you know when something is commutative though?
17:17:59 <ais523> and down to the warp level (that's a /2), you can do conditionals on threads and actually save time
17:18:08 <elliott> coppro: ais523 is describing a sum algorithm, not a general fold
17:18:15 <ais523> replacing all that with ((a-b) + (c-d)) + ((e-f) + (g-h)) is obviously trivial
17:18:24 <ais523> ofc, general folds don't parallelize
17:18:33 <elliott> obviously a Ridiculously High Level GPU Language would have a fold that's parameterised on the function type
17:18:48 <ais523> e.g., if you want to fold \a.\b.(md5sum(a) + md5sum(b))
17:18:50 <elliott> with a rule that for every function you've proved/assumed (as axiom) commutative
17:18:52 <elliott> it uses the fancy sum algo
17:19:37 <ais523> the algo's much fancier than that, though, to use memory properly
17:19:41 <elliott> ais523: so did Erlang inspire Checkout? :-P
17:19:50 <elliott> ais523: but the /N after a function name!
17:20:01 <ais523> it was inspired pretty much entirely by a) CUDA, b) actual GPU architecture
17:20:11 <ais523> oh, I noticed that was the same syntax as Prolog, but it's a different meaning
17:20:15 <ais523> I think I just liked the way it looked
17:20:24 <ais523> and I wouldn't be surprised at all if Erlang stole the syntax from Prolog
17:20:30 <ais523> because it stole most of its syntax from Prolog
17:20:42 <ais523> for no obvious reason, given that the two languages are quite different in most other respects
17:20:46 <elliott> erlang stole it from prolog
17:20:50 <elliott> erlang's relationship to prolog is so weir
17:20:56 <elliott> <ais523> and I wouldn't be surprised at all if Erlang stole the syntax from Prolog
17:20:57 <elliott> <ais523> because it stole most of its syntax from Prolog
17:20:57 <elliott> <ais523> for no obvious reason, given that the two languages are quite different in most other respects
17:20:58 <elliott> I did not read these lines
17:21:01 <elliott> I wrote my lines before reading them
17:21:19 <elliott> keeping up this elliott alter ego is more trouble than it's worth for me, ais523
17:21:20 -!- elliott has left (?).
17:21:29 -!- elliott has joined.
17:21:34 -!- elliott has left (?).
17:21:54 <fizzie> I don't think you can say CUDA C has templates; I mean, it has that <<<N, M>>> notation to do the threads, but it's really quite far from templates. (At least as far as the C-like CUDA 1.x is concerned; I don't really know much about the 2.x "pretty much runs C++ on the GPU" CUDA.)
17:22:33 <ais523> fizzie: no, it has the template<> notation as well
17:22:35 -!- Behold has joined.
17:22:41 <ais523> which is separate from the <<<>>> notation for running things on a GPU
17:23:34 <ais523> I'm not sure if it still has the > > vs. >> parsing nonsense
17:25:01 <fizzie> Ah, it's in Appendix D, "C++ language constructs for device code". Well-hidden. But according to this it does operator overloading too.
17:25:04 -!- elliott has joined.
17:25:14 <elliott> Has nobody got the memo to stop using <> for parens in C?
17:25:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
17:26:05 <ais523> at least <<< >>> is distinctive and obviously different from a regular function call
17:26:07 <elliott> hello.c++:50:5: error: invalid use of ‘auto’
17:26:46 <elliott> geordierror: invalid use of 'auto'
17:27:04 <elliott> coppro: plz stop talking so much in #c++-f so i can grep things more easily in logs found by google
17:27:04 <fizzie> The only templates it does is function templates, though, so you couldn't do a template-driven fake-pointer.
17:27:10 <elliott> (I use an O(n) grep. Totally.)
17:27:31 <elliott> struct coppro { void *ptr; }
17:27:51 <elliott> (coppro is my new metasyntactic variable when talking about anything vaguely related to C++)
17:28:22 <fizzie> You could define new operators for a struct coppro, though, so maybe with the preprocessor you could manually construct fake-pointers like that.
17:28:34 <fizzie> (To point at different data types, I mean.)
17:28:58 <elliott> _nesting_ DECLARE doesn't work
17:29:32 <elliott> oh, it's using auto that doesn't work
17:31:40 <elliott> coppro: is "auto" not a valid template argument, O C++0x Oracle?
17:32:15 <elliott> coppro: that's laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame
17:32:39 <coppro> how the hell would that even work
17:32:47 <elliott> coppro: it'd infer the right argument!!
17:32:56 <elliott> "auto declare__variable__0(4)"
17:32:59 <elliott> that's not going to work :)
17:33:02 <elliott> have to explicitly construct...
17:33:52 <elliott> coppro: you can't even say "foo<auto>(X)" :(
17:34:16 <elliott> maybe I'll use __typeof__.
17:36:12 <elliott> Yeah well, I bet coppro couldn't write this macro himself anyway. HMPH
17:37:10 <elliott> Wow, it works with __typeof__.
17:39:10 <elliott> hello.c++:51:22: error: expected primary-expression before ‘<<’ token
17:39:32 <elliott> I guess __typeof__ is resulting in something starting with a <> somehow
17:41:08 <elliott> OH no that's from the loop body.
17:42:55 <elliott> coppro: olsner: anyone who has ever coded C++ ever: ais523: http://sprunge.us/fhXB
17:43:00 <elliott> YOUR LANGUAGE IS AT MY KNEES
17:43:26 <elliott> I should probably make a WITH_COUNTER :P
17:46:16 -!- asiekierka has joined.
17:50:23 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
17:50:39 <elliott> ais523: do you know if there is any way to get cpp to omit the contents of included files in its output?
17:50:48 <elliott> gpl(7), gfdl(7), fsf-funding(7), gcc(1), as(1), ld(1), and the Info entries for cpp, gcc, and binutils.
17:50:56 <elliott> the bottom of gcc(1), too :P
17:52:34 <ais523> elliott: you mean, just expanding macros and ignoring the declarations
17:52:45 <ais523> you could try using -imacros on the command line rather than #include in the file itself
17:52:49 <elliott> ais523: no, just whenever it sees #include,
17:52:56 <ais523> in the included files?
17:52:57 <elliott> it loads all the macro definitions from the file
17:53:00 <elliott> but does not spit it out in the output
17:53:10 <elliott> so I can do "cpp foo.c" without everything in my scrollback being eaten
17:53:15 <elliott> because of 345893475349873897593759834597349834573497535 lines of system headers
17:53:59 <elliott> ais523: imacros is perfect
17:54:03 <elliott> but I'd prefer it apply to all includes
17:54:06 <elliott> I don't want to have to write them all out
17:54:18 <ais523> yep, there doesn't seem to be an option to do it automatically, unfortunately
17:54:59 <ais523> using -P too would help reduce the length, it omits the generated #line directives
17:55:19 <elliott> wow, apparently modifying specs files makes gcc developers refuse to provide support
17:55:24 <elliott> presumably even if you just add -static...
17:55:40 <ais523> I think it's because the way gcc uses them is insane
17:56:03 <elliott> it's because they're not a "public interface", apparently
17:56:09 <elliott> which makes them... fairly pointless
17:58:16 <elliott> ais523: wow, I've actually run into the "NO RECURSION" cpp thing while legitimately trying to tidy up my code
17:58:21 <elliott> #define WITH_COUNTER(f_, ...) WITH_COUNTER_(f_, __COUNTER__, ## __VA_ARGS__)
17:58:21 <elliott> #define WITH_COUNTER_(f_, counter_, ...) WITH_COUNTER__(f_, counter_, ## __VA_ARGS__)
17:58:21 <elliott> #define WITH_COUNTER__(f_, counter_, ...) f_(counter_, ## __VA_ARGS__)
17:58:26 <elliott> #define DECLARE(...) WITH_COUNTER(DECLARE_, ## __VA_ARGS__)
17:58:26 <elliott> #define DECLARE_(i_, name_, value_) ...
17:58:31 <elliott> in any WITH_COUNTER'd function
17:58:36 <elliott> you can't call any other function that uses WITH_COUNTER
17:58:41 <elliott> because that's using WITH_COUNTER more than once
18:01:55 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
18:02:00 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
18:07:18 <iconmaster> Is there an easy way to get ANSI.SYS to start working in Windows? I need dem escape codes.
18:07:40 <iconmaster> This probably isn't the best place to ask this...
18:07:51 <ais523> no, the best advice I can give if you need the full range is "use DOSBox"
18:07:59 <ais523> the Windows terminal does do some of them, though, like color
18:08:52 <iconmaster> OK, color _might_ be good enough if I just clear the screen instead of repositionnig the cursor...
18:09:29 <iconmaster> Yeah, I'm making console Lua programs.
18:10:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:11:18 <iconmaster> I wanted where the IP was to be color-inverted; also displaying ALAGUF output is *a lot* easier with curos repositioning
18:12:28 <fizzie> There's a thing to putty to use it as a terminal for cygwin; but, well, cygwin...
18:14:55 <fizzie> (And of course if you bother with cygwin you could just use its xterm.)
18:16:02 <iconmaster> I'm trying to make it system-independant, but Windows is dumb in not supporting ANSI.
18:17:22 <elliott> iconmaster: vt100s are just ANSI emulators for the most part...
18:17:38 <elliott> vt100 terminal emulators, that is.
18:19:01 <ais523> nobody uses the Windows terminal for anything, pretty much
18:19:08 <ais523> including Windows programmers
18:19:18 <ais523> who either use a GUI, or a better terminal emulator
18:20:44 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | actually saunalahti means a lahti containing a sauna.
18:20:45 <fizzie> elliott: Re your earlier thing, you can do something like this to get whatever's in test.c, preprocessed, after the last #include in it: gcc -E test.c | grep -A 10000 '# '`gcc -E test.c | grep -E '# [0-9]+ "test.c"' | cut -d ' ' -f 2 | tail -n 1`' "test.c"'
18:21:12 <iconmaster> I wonder: Does PowerShell terminal support ANSI? I have that installed...
18:21:16 <elliott> fizzie: Doesn't work if you use -P, but you can process those afterwords, I suppose.
18:21:19 <elliott> iconmaster: It just uses cmd.exe...
18:21:36 <elliott> cmd.exe is the emulator, COMMAND.COM the command interpreter (though I think the latter has a different name nowadays)
18:21:50 <elliott> I hesitate to call cmd.exe a terminal and draw the line at calling COMMAND.COM a shell
18:23:20 <iconmaster> If Powershell dosn't have ANSI, that how does *it* use colors in its error messages? Direct BIOS calls, most like.
18:23:52 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:24:03 <elliott> iconmaster: Uh, Windows' terminal does colours.
18:24:10 <elliott> And the BIOS can't do anything to cmd.exe.
18:24:27 <fizzie> You can do anything in a console window using the console API; that's what you're "supposed" to use in a console app.
18:24:29 <elliott> The bug is in your code, I suspect.
18:24:40 <elliott> Are you sure colours don't work by default?
18:24:43 <fizzie> Well, for some values of "supposed".
18:24:45 <elliott> No, can't be. Cygwin's bash.exe works.
18:24:50 <ais523> elliott: actually, for added confusion, cmd.exe is also a shell that's different from command.com
18:24:51 <elliott> In both a vt100 and the Windows terminal.
18:24:59 <ais523> as in, similar but different syntax
18:25:00 <elliott> And I very much doubt that it has Windows code to do that :)
18:25:06 <fizzie> Colors might work, I don't know about that. It was more of a general comment, if you need complicated things.
18:27:18 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:27:30 <ais523> NetHack works in the Windows terminal
18:27:39 <ais523> as a result of a crazy amount of specialcasing, IIRC
18:27:44 <ais523> it can restrict itself to just the subset that works
18:27:48 <ais523> hardly anything else does, though
18:28:01 <fizzie> If you directly WriteConsole in a console window, it doesn't support any escape codes at all, but I guess there might well be something somewhere in-between so that "regular" console output can use some control codes.
18:30:07 -!- Behold has joined.
18:30:12 -!- Behold has quit (Changing host).
18:30:12 -!- Behold has joined.
18:30:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
18:30:40 <elliott> hmm, it might actually be a bug in bsnes
18:32:32 <elliott> the file browser window is being created with no title, and thus the filter isn't working
18:33:02 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, the win/tty/wintty.c defined(WIN32CON) snippets seem very nice. There's one in tty_askname() that does backsp(); (void) putchar(' '); backsp(); after receiving a \b or \177 with the comment "\b is visible on NT".
18:33:16 <elliott> I like how that makes no sense at all.
18:33:35 <fizzie> ais523: In any case it seems to use the proper Win32 console API with the functions from sys/winnt/nttty.c.
18:33:48 <fizzie> (To move the cursor and such.)
18:33:57 <ais523> fizzie: well, it works even over telnet
18:33:59 <ais523> where you can't use the API
18:34:03 <ais523> which is what really impresses me
18:36:36 <fizzie> ais523: The Windows "telnet" console app parses ANSI. It even does four different terminal types (vt100, vt52, ansi, vtnt).
18:36:50 <ais523> ah, I didn't know that
18:40:14 -!- FlyingTortilla has joined.
18:41:01 <fizzie> For all those people who have to telnet to pre-1978 systems that don't know about this newfangled VT100 family.
18:41:13 -!- iconmaster has quit (Quit: installing a z80 emulator.... My FAV ML!).
18:43:31 <elliott> oh dear, my compile of bsnes is either ridiculously buggy, or v076 is
18:43:44 <elliott> also, iconmaster has to quit to do things with his computer. clearly.
18:43:59 -!- augur has joined.
18:45:03 <elliott> Yes. Z80 is a dialect of ML.
18:45:04 <ais523> well, ML and z80 machine language are both pretty clean languages
18:45:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps the dialect of ML used by the Venezuelan Air Force.
18:46:53 <elliott> Wow, bsnes doesn't even load a word at a time from memory.
18:47:02 <elliott> It literally reads words byte-by-byte.
18:47:08 <elliott> Presumably because you can override individual bytes of RAM,
18:47:36 <fizzie> Heh, the VTNT terminal doesn't use escape codes either: instead, all output is sent wrappend inside VTNT_CHAR_INFO structures, that specifies stuff like the coordinates of a rectangle where the output goes; and followed by an array of 32-bit VTNT_SINGLE_CHAR values that have a 16-bit character code and 16 bits of attributes.
18:47:43 <fizzie> I wonder if anyone really uses that thing anywhere.
18:47:45 -!- iconmaster has joined.
18:48:09 <ais523> fizzie: and are they just fwrite()ten versions of internal Windows structures?
18:48:12 <elliott> VTNT : VTNT - VT[5] community mailing list
18:48:13 <elliott> 18 Oct 1999 ... A low-noise mailing list focusing on using the Video Toaster NT.
18:48:13 <elliott> groups.yahoo.com/groups/VTNT/ - Cached
18:48:13 <elliott> VTNT Terminal. VTNT terminal emulation is an extension to the Telnet Terminal Type Option standard (RFC 884), which is part of the Telnet protocol family of ...
18:48:16 <elliott> msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms819760.aspx - Cached - Similar
18:48:18 <elliott> Clearly NetHack runs on a toaster.
18:48:20 <elliott> A Video Toaster, but a toaster.
18:48:42 <ais523> does "low-noise" there actually mean "low-traffic"?
18:48:48 <ais523> elliott: it's not obvious where to put the parens
18:49:03 <fizzie> ais523: I don't recognize them, but of course they might well be. They're not exactly the console API structures, I think.
18:49:54 <ais523> elliott: ouch, that's not how you take the past tense of "write" at all
18:50:09 <elliott> ais523: That's okay, because you're not taken the past tense of write.
18:50:16 <elliott> You're taking the past tense of fwrite().
18:50:26 <elliott> ais523: I call multiple computer mouses "mouses" when I remember to, too.
18:51:51 <pikhq_> elliott: .sfc is the only extension it does support.
18:51:59 <elliott> pikhq_: Yep. The code is buggy or my gcc is ludicrously buggy.
18:52:13 <pikhq_> Also, fuck DST so much.
18:52:16 <fizzie> There's a "vtnt" terminfo entry in this here database, but it's just "ms-vt100-color|vtnt|windows 2000 ansi (sic)" and I don't think it does what telnet does in "vtnt" mode.
18:52:20 <elliott> pikhq_: The Load Cartridge window was created without a title.
18:52:27 <elliott> pikhq_: The function that adds the filename extension to the list,
18:52:32 <elliott> also set the title of the (terrible, BTW) file chooser.
18:52:45 <elliott> I checked what called that; it was another internal file-chooser function.
18:52:47 <elliott> It used a switch statement.
18:52:55 <elliott> The case that added .sfc and set the title...
18:53:02 <elliott> ...was on the value it was called with directly in the menu code.
18:53:10 <elliott> tl;dr: Evidently switch() compiles incorrectly.
18:53:36 <elliott> pikhq_: Anyway, I then made it show every file just for testing; upon picking the ROM, bsnes emulated 41 FPS' worth of a black screen.
18:53:40 <elliott> Something Is Horribly Wrong.
18:53:56 <elliott> Also, I found a seeded version of that torrent, NO THANKS TO YOU. :p
18:54:39 <elliott> pikhq_: Maybe I should use gcc 4.4 instead of 4.5, but I don't think 4.4 has dem lambadas.
18:57:50 <pikhq_> I strongly suspect you got an invalid ROM?
18:58:14 <ais523> you do realise you aren't supposed to be discussing this on Freenode, right?
18:58:47 <elliott> ais523: Who said it was a torrent of commercial games?
18:58:52 <elliott> I have not said any such thing.
18:59:23 <elliott> pikhq_: It was absolutely not the complete No-Info set circa 2010.
18:59:25 <ais523> but non-commercial SNES games are nearly always distributed as a set of patches
18:59:37 <pikhq_> ais523: ... No, just non-commercial mods.
18:59:51 <elliott> pikhq_: It was by BitTorrent, so all the contents were verified.
18:59:53 <ais523> people write non-commercial SNES games from scratch?
18:59:58 <elliott> pikhq_: Besides, like I said, the file chooser thing was fucked up.
19:00:04 <elliott> But the code was perfectly OK.
19:00:12 <pikhq_> It's more demos than anything else, TBH.
19:00:14 <elliott> So in conclusion, WTF GCC.
19:01:18 <elliott> Maybe it's Ubuntu's default gcc flags.
19:01:43 <elliott> Something -Bsymbolic-functions-related, perhaps.
19:02:06 <pikhq_> http://byuusan.kuro-hitsuji.net.nyud.net/blargg_near_cd_quality2.7z Well, here's a simple audio demo you could try that I know for a fact works in BSNES.
19:02:16 <pikhq_> And only BSNES and a real SNES. :)
19:03:27 <pikhq_> (has lower sound quality on SNES9x, *is pain and agony* on ZSNES)
19:03:35 <elliott> pikhq_: Do you have an .sfc file matching the pattern "C* T* (U*)" whose hash is de5822f4f2f7a55acb8926d4c0eaa63d5d989312?
19:04:30 -!- ais523 has left (?).
19:04:45 <elliott> I think I drove ais away. :p
19:04:56 <elliott> That .7z contains an smc, anyway, which I don't believe bsnes supports.
19:05:07 <elliott> pikhq_: Then my gcc is definitely the issue.
19:05:13 <elliott> And gcc massively miscompiling is definitely esoteric.
19:05:40 <pikhq_> I don't know *what* they did to be worthy of blame, but they're an easy target.
19:06:08 <elliott> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/CompilerFlags
19:06:22 <elliott> Do any of -fstack-protector, -Wl,-z,relro or -Bsymbolic-functions break bsnes? :P
19:07:20 <pikhq_> Well, I *do* know that bsnes relies on fucking with the stack.
19:07:32 <elliott> pikhq_: Indeed; it uses -fomit-frame-pointer, which scares me.
19:07:59 <elliott> Oh wait, symbolic functions aren't even used I think.
19:08:04 <pikhq_> -fomit-frame-pointer *only* screws up debugging on some architectures.
19:08:14 <pikhq_> That is literally the only downside.
19:08:32 <elliott> pikhq_: Then what's your better guess of why this is totally broken?
19:08:45 <pikhq_> Anyways. BSNES's simple multithreading library works by swapping the stack.
19:08:53 <pikhq_> I'm willing to bet that GCC is fucking with that.
19:09:10 <elliott> pikhq_: Mm, but the Makefile specifically selects gcc-4.5 for Linux.
19:09:24 <elliott> I *suppose* a Debian or Ubuntu patch could break it, but...
19:09:33 <elliott> pikhq_: This is a *UI* bug, for one!
19:09:34 <pikhq_> Namely, one of -fstack-protector of -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2
19:09:37 <elliott> Before it even emulates ANYTHING!
19:09:40 <elliott> And fortify source is just about warnings.
19:09:58 <pikhq_> -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE adds runtime checks.
19:10:03 <elliott> pikhq_: Like I said, somehow the filter isn't getting added despite the call being totally cromulent.
19:10:44 <elliott> void FileBrowser::fileOpen(FileBrowser::Mode requestedMode, function<void (string)> requestedCallback) {
19:10:45 <elliott> switch(mode = requestedMode) {
19:10:45 <elliott> setTitle("Load Cartridge");
19:11:03 <elliott> systemLoadCartridge.onTick = []() {
19:11:03 <elliott> fileBrowser.fileOpen(FileBrowser::Mode::Cartridge, [](string filename) {
19:11:04 <elliott> cartridge.loadNormal(filename);
19:11:08 <elliott> Yet no title is being set, and no filter is being added.
19:11:31 <elliott> I can think of *exactly one* way this could possibly happen, and that doesn't explain the emulation not working.
19:11:49 <elliott> if(mode == requestedMode && folder == config.path.current) {
19:12:03 <elliott> enum class Mode : unsigned { Cartridge, Satellaview, SufamiTurbo, GameBoy, Filter, Shader } mode;
19:12:30 <elliott> byuu, you fucked up mode initialisation,.
19:12:57 <elliott> pikhq_: tl;dr value initialises to 0, 0 is Cartridge.
19:13:03 <elliott> It thinks it's already in Cartridge, fails to initialise.
19:13:13 <elliott> This doesn't explain the emulation bug, but does make me think that byuu might fail at them programmings.
19:15:04 -!- pingveno has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:17:19 <elliott> This class is terrible, I blame byuu.
19:17:26 -!- pingveno has joined.
19:20:13 <elliott> pikhq_: I conclude that this compile is awesomely fucked.
19:26:30 <elliott> Gregor: Last day of optbot was 09.01.03.
19:26:31 <optbot> elliott: from hehkua, which is glow i think
19:26:38 <Gregor> elliott: To answer your comparison to EgoBot: ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? EgoBot was set up to make sure the topic mentioned that this was a channel on esoteric programming and that it had the logs, it was NOT set up to make the topic be random fucking bullshit no matter what somebody puts there.
19:26:45 <elliott> Oh wait, "really" 08.11.15 or so.
19:27:26 <elliott> So, basically, over three months. Also, you care about the topic way too much.
19:27:34 <pikhq_> Eh, make optbot togglable.
19:27:35 <optbot> pikhq_: below 0: if the subtraction causes a borrow
19:27:58 <Gregor> I don't care so much what the topic is, I would just much rather we allow it to be human rather than some random bullshit.
19:28:04 <pikhq_> If we really *want* a specific topic, we should be able to keep it.
19:28:12 <elliott> And I'm going to assume that the many people who talked to optbot didn't outright hate it either :P
19:28:16 <pikhq_> Otherwise, well, actually saunalahti means a lahti containing a sauna
19:28:22 <Gregor> People like to set the topic. And it's fine to see the topic change. It's NOT fine to see some topic you put up change for NO FUCKING REASON.
19:28:25 <elliott> pikhq_: I'll turn optbot off if the topic becomes like... vital information to donate money to save someone's life?
19:28:26 <optbot> elliott: Nowadays, that's computer related stuff ;)
19:29:03 <elliott> Gregor: Uhh, people put up plenty of topics when optbot was around, the fact is that the topic rate turnover then was more than once per six hours and it generally is now too, so optbot doesn't really hide the topic any more than anything else.
19:29:04 <optbot> elliott: j-invariant: why?
19:30:10 <elliott> I swear it seemed like more than three months, mind you...
19:30:17 <elliott> The channel was very active then though.
19:30:22 <Gregor> elliott: Except that, to repeat myself again, optbot's topics are RANDOM. It's fine for the topic turnover to be high when PEOPLE are setting the topic. It would even be fine if it was a friendly AI (lols). Instead what we have is human topics being replaced by random lines from the log? WHY?
19:30:22 <optbot> Gregor: is that like /usr/local?
19:30:31 <Gregor> optbot: NO YOU FUCKING ASSHAT IT ISN'T :P
19:30:42 <elliott> Gregor: Because optbot is entertaining and says entertaining things.
19:30:42 <optbot> elliott: apart from that?
19:30:48 <elliott> This has been proved by three-month experiment.
19:31:01 <elliott> It is the same reason fungot has a lot of quotes in the QDB, because these things are funny.
19:31:02 <fungot> elliott: because objects are " reference types" in java. :d), i really like some features of vim, however, is that
19:31:17 <Gregor> SAYING things can be funny, but the topic is not PRIVMSG.
19:32:08 <elliott> Gregor: Actually optbot has produced many entertaining topics before and will do so in the future.
19:32:08 <optbot> elliott: <type 'instancemethod'>
19:32:12 <elliott> Again, 3-month experiment. :p
19:32:56 <Gregor> Oh, plus, when people complained about EgoBot's topic changing, I TURNED THAT FEATURE OFF.
19:32:56 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the point is that it overrides whatever has gone before.
19:33:07 <elliott> Gregor: HOW MANY TIMES TO I HAVE TO POINT OUT THAT IT WAS A JOKE BEFORE YOU STOP YELLING ABOUT IT
19:33:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: plz 2 be reading the things i say before replying kthx
19:34:05 <elliott> pikhq_: Which bsnes are you using? I'm pretty sure this version is buggy.
19:34:46 <pikhq_> elliott: I had been using 0.73, for lack of GCC 4.5.
19:34:57 <elliott> pikhq_: Isn't that super old?
19:35:01 <pikhq_> (it's not in Debian Testing yet, and I don't feel like building it myself)
19:35:10 <pikhq_> Uh, a couple months old.
19:35:28 <pikhq_> Oh, GCC 4.5, not BSNES 0.73.
19:35:41 <elliott> pikhq_: http://packages.qa.debian.org/g/gcc-4.5.html
19:35:45 -!- cheater00 has joined.
19:35:47 <elliott> pikhq_: You're probably on squeeze, which is stable.
19:35:52 <elliott> As opposed to wheezy, which is testing.
19:36:31 <elliott> pikhq_: Do try bsnes v076 and tell me if it works :P
19:36:35 -!- cheater97 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
19:36:53 <elliott> pikhq_: Also, do this to memory/memory.cpp line 48:
19:36:54 <elliott> destaddr = mirror(base + offset++, length);
19:36:54 <coppro> haha, sometimes I love chess
19:36:54 <elliott> //offset = (offset + 1) % length;
19:36:59 <elliott> Bug acknowledged/fixed by byuu.
19:36:59 <coppro> I earned a resignation in 10 moves
19:36:59 <Gregor> Why is kjournald 75% of my file I/O ...
19:37:21 <Gregor> Shouldn't it be sort of limited by the amount of legit disk I/O that's done?
19:41:56 <pikhq_> elliott: The *fuck*, man.
19:42:14 <elliott> pikhq_: Yes, it's initialised to Cartridge.
19:42:20 <elliott> pikhq_: But even fixing the file selection bug, EMULATION DOESN'T WORK.
19:42:26 <pikhq_> It's going really slow due to defaulting to the accuracy profile.
19:42:36 <elliott> I have a pretty fast machine.
19:42:45 <elliott> Do I have to wait like 30 seconds for it to start?
19:42:49 <pikhq_> Yes, the accuracy profile is insane.
19:42:50 <elliott> pikhq_: BTW, did the file selector work for you?!
19:43:17 * pikhq_ tries the compatibility profile
19:43:20 <elliott> pikhq_: Anyway, I get 41-43 FPS.
19:43:31 <elliott> pikhq_: Not that it ever _starts_.
19:43:34 <elliott> But if I get FPS like that...
19:43:42 <elliott> Surely it should be starting the actual game quickly?
19:45:11 <elliott> pikhq_: ASKING QUESTIONS HERE :P
19:46:20 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:46:26 <pikhq_> But try profile=compatibility?
19:46:49 <elliott> I will. But I strongly suspect a broken compiler or something if the file selector is broken.
19:47:40 -!- Gregor has set topic: My computer is possessed by the Ancient Spirit of ALGOL | Blessd be his name | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
19:49:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:50:24 <elliott> pikhq_: Same blank screen with compatibility.
19:50:32 <elliott> So it's emulating, just not... blitting the emulation to my screen.
19:50:37 <elliott> BYUU, YOUR UI IS SO BROKEN.
19:50:51 <elliott> pikhq_: Can I have a binary with profile=accuracy? :-P
19:50:56 <elliott> I'm on x86-64 Ubuntu, so it should work on my machine too.
19:50:59 <pikhq_> Hit "advanced options" and try a different video driver?
19:51:07 <elliott> And the file selector bug is still there.
19:51:17 <elliott> I conclude that my compiler or something is fucked, so your binary would be appreciated :P
19:51:21 <elliott> At least until I debug further.
19:51:39 <Deewiant> fizzie: Do you have RAM restrictions per bot or just for the whole thing
19:52:48 <pikhq_> elliott: Got a simple way of getting it to you?
19:52:59 <elliott> pikhq_: Is email acceptable?
19:53:17 <elliott> pikhq_: penguinofthegods@gmail.com :)
19:53:27 <elliott> If Yet Another Person asks me wtf is with my email, I will kill them.
19:54:32 <pikhq_> I'm not getting past the very first bit in Super Mario Kart.
19:54:33 <fizzie> Deewiant: Per bot; the two competitors are run as completely different processes.
19:54:47 <elliott> pikhq_: I'll try 'nother ROM myself.
19:54:48 <fizzie> Deewiant: (The time limit is based on ulimit'ing CPU time to one hour.)
19:54:55 <Deewiant> fizzie: Ah, so the 256 megs is for just the bot?
19:54:59 <elliott> pikhq_: Most people seem fine with this release, so clearly our compilers are SO FUCKED UP, SO FUCKED UP.
19:55:09 <pikhq_> Works just fine with Chrono Trigger.
19:55:09 <elliott> Deewiant: Is this the FANCY TOURNAMENT?
19:55:32 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, there's a small stub to accept situations from stdin and write moves to stdout, but that's not going to use very much memory.
19:55:51 <Deewiant> elliott: Depends on what's fancy and what's not
19:56:20 <elliott> pikhq_: SMW does the same black screen thing, so yeah.
19:56:28 <elliott> Your binary is more working than mine :P
19:56:45 <pikhq_> gcc (Debian 4.4.5-13) 4.4.5
19:56:57 <pikhq_> Super Mario World *also* works just fine.
19:57:13 <pikhq_> I'd bet SMK is a DSP issue.
19:57:26 <elliott> gcc (Ubuntu/Linaro 4.4.4-14ubuntu5) 4.4.5
19:57:33 <elliott> pikhq_: I wouldn't mind your binary still, then. :p
19:57:38 <elliott> I'll compile my own 4.5 later.
19:59:10 <fizzie> Deewiant: http://p.zem.fi/ts0k.java -- this plus whatever code you write is run under "java -Xmx256M", to be most exact.
20:00:44 <fizzie> The name is inherited, not mine.
20:00:53 <fizzie> I did put my own domain there for the prefix, though.
20:01:43 <elliott> pikhq_: Your binary works.
20:02:02 <elliott> pikhq_: Clearly I need a better compiler.
20:02:14 <elliott> pikhq_: (Meanwhile, wtf wtf wtf @ that miscompilation)
20:02:37 <elliott> pikhq_: Actually what I *suspect* it is is that bsnes is depending on undefined behaviour and -O3 is messing it up.
20:02:45 <elliott> Like the initialisation of the file opener mode...
20:05:04 <pikhq_> And a-yup, I was having an issue with loading the DSP. Mario Kart works fine now.
20:06:10 -!- FlyingTortilla has left (?).
20:09:59 <pikhq_> I had set up an XML file for loading it. The format of the memory-mapping XML changed.
20:10:24 <elliott> pikhq_: Ah. (Why does the emulator come with cheats but not memory-mappers?)
20:10:48 <pikhq_> It guesses them on cartridge load.
20:10:58 <pikhq_> Because the actual memory layout for almost everything isn't known yet.
20:11:10 <elliott> "But What About the BS-X Satellaview?
20:11:10 <elliott> The truth of the matter is that most of these games are irreparably lost forever already. And those that remain are stored on extremely volatile flash memory. Not only does this mean the memory will fail an order of magnitude sooner than mask ROMs, it also means it is possible to tamper with. I will not be attempting the impossible here."
20:11:21 <elliott> I wonder if all the games actually still exist on flash.
20:11:39 <elliott> That would be quite a fun project, to track them all down and rip their contents.
20:11:51 <pikhq_> Some of them were only playable for a limited time, making it so that people would have deleted them.
20:12:09 <elliott> Maybe somebody lost interest in a shot while.
20:12:21 <pikhq_> You seriously need either a time machine or a break-in to get at it, as far as we know.
20:13:20 <elliott> http://www.satellablog.blogspot.com/ This seems to have... videos, at least.
20:14:53 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
20:16:49 <elliott> pikhq_: I still can't believe that bsnes is even vaguely playable now that I know it loads RAM byte-by-byte :P
20:16:57 <elliott> At least the SNES is 16-bit, so it's only two reads.
20:18:24 <elliott> pikhq_: Ohwait what's your g++-4.5 --version?
20:18:35 <elliott> Just realised I gave you my normal gcc version X-D
20:18:36 <pikhq_> g++-4.5 (Debian 4.5.2-4) 4.5.2
20:18:43 <elliott> g++-4.5 (Ubuntu/Linaro 4.5.1-7ubuntu2) 4.5.1
20:18:52 <elliott> So MAYBE 0.0.1 VERSIONS FIXED SOMETHING
20:19:10 <pikhq_> And, yeah, bsnes does a lot of stuff very inefficiently.
20:19:52 <pikhq_> It's hardware documentation that happens to be playable. :P
20:20:38 <elliott> pikhq_: HARDWARE DOCUMENTATION THAT RELIES ON THE STACK NO LESS
20:21:23 <pikhq_> It uses the stack-swapping thing because it makes things very, very readable.
20:21:54 <pikhq_> Well, aside from libco itself.
20:22:08 <Deewiant> fizzie: Are recent previous years' bot rankings available? (I'm wondering how much better than the given quintuplet people's creations have tended to be)
20:24:26 <fizzie> Deewiant: The old results page is at http://www.cs.hut.fi/Studies/T-93.4400/2010/results/
20:25:10 <fizzie> Deewiant: And the 2009 at http://www.cs.hut.fi/Studies/T-93.4400/2009/results/ -- that year the top three out of the given examples (which are the top 5 from 2008) were unbeateded.
20:25:31 <elliott> <pikhq_> It uses the stack-swapping thing because it makes things very, very readable.
20:26:02 <pikhq_> That's how it implements coöperative multithreading, yes.
20:26:40 <olsner> and this umlaut thing you keep doing is very annoying
20:26:55 <pikhq_> olsner: The SNES is a combination of an insane number of CPUs, each with a different clock.
20:27:44 <pikhq_> Is there any other way to handle that, with clock-tick-accurate emulation, *without* wanting to kill someone?
20:29:13 <pikhq_> Pretty sure the alternative is a truly insane state machine.
20:29:42 <pikhq_> Containing all the possible CPUs that could be loaded.
20:29:58 <pikhq_> (some SNES cartridges had another CPU that hooked into the system bus. No, really!)
20:30:12 <olsner> right! on-cartridge cpus... that makes it a lot more evil
20:31:36 <elliott> Oh, I thought you meant libco didn't use it for that reason.
20:31:42 <elliott> I thought you meant it stack-swapped for some entirely different reason.
20:31:43 <elliott> <olsner> and this umlaut thing you keep doing is very annoying
20:31:50 <elliott> It's called a diaeresis and PH is the one who does it all the time :P
20:32:22 <olsner> I don't care who does it the most, I blame all of you!
20:32:42 <elliott> Technically, it's called...
20:33:02 <elliott> olsner: It's actually a trema.
20:33:16 <elliott> i.e., a trema is a diæresis that marks a hiatus.
20:33:27 <olsner> Trema is a genus of about 15 species of evergreen trees closely related to the hackberries (Celtis)
20:33:41 <elliott> An umlaut is also a trema.
20:33:47 <elliott> So it's a hiatus trema diæresis!
20:34:12 <pikhq_> elliott: BTW, if you have ROMs in .smc, use snespurify (in the bsnes source).
20:34:15 <fizzie> We Finns keep döing it all the time too, but it's umlauts when we do it.
20:34:57 <elliott> pikhq_: So I need to run snespurify on byuu's thing you linked me? WELL THAT MAKES SENSE
20:35:15 <pikhq_> Tḧërë's älsö ẗḧë mëẗäl ümläüẗ.
20:35:20 <elliott> fizzie: Hmm, are ä and ö not part of your balphabet?
20:35:25 <olsner> what I object to is the use of non-umlaut tremata
20:35:38 <elliott> pikhq_: <pikhq_> http://byuusan.kuro-hitsuji.net.nyud.net/blargg_near_cd_quality2.7z Well, here's a simple audio demo you could try that I know for a fact works in BSNES.
20:35:46 <elliott> Unless there's ANOTHER person called byuu out there who does SNES stuff.
20:35:46 <fizzie> It is rather hard to avoid not hearing how it sounds wrong when you see "coöperative" when the "hardwired" meaning is a different sound.
20:35:46 <pikhq_> elliott: Blame Blargg.
20:35:55 <elliott> Was wondering what that meant!
20:36:07 <elliott> fizzie: Are they actually pronounced umlauty?
20:36:13 <elliott> Or are they just separate members of the balphahet?
20:36:20 <olsner> metal tremata are worse than diaereses since they don't even have a meaning
20:36:56 <pikhq_> olsner: Diæreſes are more correct þan þou.
20:37:34 <elliott> olsner: They're not tremata.
20:37:45 <elliott> The symbol is the diæresis.
20:38:05 <fizzie> "The trema is usually used to denote one of two distinct phonological phenomena: diaeresis (pronounced /daɪˈɛrɨsɨs/ dy-ERR-ə-səs), in which the trema is used to show that a vowel letter is not part of a digraph or diphthong; and umlaut (pronounced /ˈʊmlaʊt/ OOM-lowt), in which the trema illustrates a sound shift."
20:38:10 <olsner> "A trema [...] is a diacritic consisting of two dots ( ¨ ) placed over a letter"
20:38:13 <elliott> A tremeta is when a diæresis is used to denote either a hiatus, or a sound shift.
20:38:25 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
20:38:39 <olsner> and "Diaeresis (prosody), pronunciation of vowels in a diphthong separately, or the division made in a line of poetry when the end of a foot coincides with the end of a word" from the disamb. page
20:38:41 <elliott> olsner: Arguably, a trema is a diæresis when it is used to denote a hiatus, and an umlaut when it is used to denote a sound shift.
20:38:56 <elliott> But metal umlauts are neither a hiatus nor a sound shift, so I think calling the mark a trema there is wrong.
20:39:07 <elliott> olsner: Yes, the article recently got deleted.
20:39:10 <Sgeo> Since Varsity has told us that fascination with Jellybabies is a "fetish",
20:39:10 <Sgeo> and we want to keep Nomicam a clean family game:
20:39:10 <Sgeo> The speaker shall once and once only go through the rules, changing every
20:39:10 <Sgeo> mention of the word "jelly baby" - in whatever grammatical form - into the
20:39:10 <Sgeo> word "sheep" - in the corresponding grammatical form.
20:40:38 <elliott> elliott@elliott-MacBookAir:~/Downloads/gcc-4.5.2$ ./configure --with-languages=c,c++ --enable-lto --enable-libssp
20:40:56 <olsner> unless you're in fact arguing the wikipedia is wrong, I think it clearly says that a trema is the diacritic regardless of what meaning you invent for it
20:41:21 <elliott> http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=trema
20:41:42 <elliott> S: (n) umlaut, dieresis, diaeresis (a diacritical mark (two dots) placed over a vowel in German to indicate a change in sound)
20:41:52 <elliott> So at least WordNet disagrees, sort of, kinda. :p
20:42:17 <olsner> what? I only get S: (n) Trema, genus Trema (an evergreen tree of the family Ulmaceae that grows in tropical America and Africa and Asia)
20:43:35 <elliott> olsner: It's called a ``joke''.
20:43:38 <elliott> You may have heard of this.
20:44:21 <olsner> diaeresis appears to be a synonym of trema though
20:44:41 <elliott> Clearly a diæresis is a type of rtee.
20:45:57 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:45:59 <fizzie> elliott: Re the earlier discussion fork, a → ä is /ɑ/ → /æ/ IPA-wise, and o → ö is /o̞/ → /ø̞/, so it is "umlauty" in the sense of "sound shift"; I think that more or less matches German usage, too.
20:46:00 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:49:45 <elliott> ../.././gcc/config/i386/i386.c: In function ‘ix86_handle_fndecl_attribute’:
20:49:45 <elliott> ../.././gcc/config/i386/i386.c:26127: warning: unknown conversion type character ‘E’ in format
20:49:45 <elliott> ../.././gcc/config/i386/i386.c:26127: warning: too many arguments for format
20:49:45 <elliott> ../.././gcc/config/i386/i386.c:26135: warning: unknown conversion type character ‘E’ in format
20:49:45 <elliott> ../.././gcc/config/i386/i386.c:26135: warning: too many arguments for format
20:50:15 <olsner> nice, nonstandard formats
20:52:41 <elliott> /usr/include/gnu/stubs.h:7:27: fatal error: gnu/stubs-32.h: No such file or directory
20:52:42 <fizzie> olsner: "E" is not a nonstandard type, though; at least in C99.
20:52:54 <elliott> Does gcc build a 32-bit thing by default?
20:53:04 <elliott> Yeah, no, no multilibs please gcc.
20:53:48 <elliott> Oh well, /me installs multilib gcc :P
20:54:42 <pikhq> Michelle Bachmann would like to let you know that E PLVRIBVS VNVM is unAmerican.
20:55:10 <elliott> (Can we please stop saying "unA"? Really really ugly.)
20:55:27 <pikhq> unÄmerican. Better?
20:56:47 <fizzie> un American, with U+200A HAIR SPACE ("thinner than a thing space; in traditional typography, the thinnest space available") there. (Again an awesome character name.)
20:57:11 <elliott> That's a slight kerning failure! :P
20:57:23 <fizzie> With a monospaced font, it's also quite a failure.
21:00:50 <elliott> gcc sure does take a while to compile.
21:01:04 <elliott> ("A few seconds" would count as "not a while".)
21:26:35 <Sgeo> I should work on installing emacs
21:26:43 <Sgeo> Well, I have Emacs installed, kind of
21:29:20 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:30:01 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:30:08 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
21:30:08 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:35:50 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:36:03 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:42:54 -!- iconmaster has quit (Quit: "Help! I've been g:lined from my mIRC!!" Bersirc 2.2: less n00bs [ http://www.bersirc.org/ - Open Source IRC ]).
21:45:27 <elliott> That gcc, it never stops compiling.
21:49:46 <elliott> Makes me want to get an Oberon VM and order it to recompile itself.
22:00:11 <Sgeo> "Have I ever designed a standard library? I'd like to lie and say "no", but the answer is "yes": I designed JavaScript's standard library (Clause 15 of ECMA-262, Edition 1, plus or minus) along with the "DOM Level 0" (onload and onclick and document, window, forms, etc. -- a great deal of this is only now standardized by HTML5).
22:00:11 <Sgeo> I did this in about 30 days in May and June 1995 (10 days in May for the core language), and spent the rest of the year debugging and repenting. I was under orders to make JS look like Java, so some of the standard library is cloned from the JDK1.0 -- in particular, Ken Smith of Netscape did a pretty straight port of java.util.Date, Y2K bugs and all, to JS."
22:00:19 <Sgeo> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4009#comment-60781
22:05:30 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:06:34 -!- wareya has joined.
22:19:20 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:19:38 <zzo38> There is bad UTF-8 in the TOPIC message.
22:20:13 <olsner> it might not be utf-8 at all
22:20:57 <zzo38> Also, I read article of ] programming language, it says programs that the brackets are matched is invalid. I have a different idea, which is to make something such that a thing is not said explicitly, but instead is implied by the other rules of the language (such as its commands) that cause programs with all matched brackets to do nothing.
22:21:24 <zzo38> olsner: It is not UTF-8. But I think in here we mostly are using UTF-8, so it should be corrected unless you are deliberately trying to make it wrong.
22:22:11 <olsner> it works fine for me, so I don't think it should be changed :)
22:22:57 <zzo38> olsner: Is your client not in UTF-8 mode? Sometimes Japanese things are typed in here using UTF-8.
22:23:33 <lambdabot> forall a. (Integral a) => a -> a -> a
22:23:40 <olsner> it neatly auto-detects whether stuff seems to be latin1 or utf-8
22:24:43 <zzo38> PuTTY does not do such things, though. Also, there might sometimes be something that causes the detection wrong.
22:25:18 <olsner> I think if I used PuTTY I'd have to have putty and my locale set to utf-8 to allow the client to output whatever it auto-detected to
22:25:27 <olsner> or ssh in general, for that matter
22:36:45 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:37:12 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:44:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
22:47:42 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:03:25 <zzo38> TeX will skip tokens category 10 character 32 when reading undelimited arguments. So, I made a macro \makefunny that makes spaces funny so that the macro can read spaces.
23:05:24 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:21:40 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:22:21 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:26:12 -!- oklopol has joined.
23:28:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:34:41 <Vorpal> --- google.com ping statistics ---
23:34:41 <Vorpal> 42 packets transmitted, 19 received, 54% packet loss, time 41134ms
23:34:41 <Vorpal> rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 42.567/43.240/44.072/0.433 ms
23:44:13 <zzo38> I have been on #LaTeX channel. I realized that a lot of people have a lot of problems with LaTeX which could be avoided by using Plain TeX instead.
23:45:25 <elliott> At the cost of much more pain.
23:46:31 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
23:46:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:46:59 <zzo38> elliott: Perhaps the first time. The first time I had a few problems too, but the second time I knew much better and now I can make Plain TeX documents very easily without much pain/trouble/whatever.
23:55:52 <zzo38> I have tried using LaTeX once. It is so weak and difficult that I am not sure why someone would use it, except, perhaps, people who like Microsoft Word.
23:56:28 <elliott> OK, some of us like LaTeX and hate Microsoft Word, and simply want to work in a high-level document language rather than a low-level typesetting language.
23:56:31 <elliott> So please stop telling us how bad it is.
23:56:34 <coppro> you're funny sometimes
23:56:47 <zzo38> elliott: Whatever, work with what you like.
23:56:50 <coppro> zzo38 is to elliott what eliott is to the rest of us
23:57:09 <elliott> coppro: don't be silly, i don't justify my criticisms
23:57:16 <elliott> also, who is eliott :trollface:
00:20:33 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | From when they take effect..
00:21:05 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:26:22 * Sgeo is watching Firefly
00:33:54 <zzo38> A chess variant about "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition" should be invented.
00:35:01 <coppro> the spanish inquisition is kept in pocket
00:35:04 <coppro> it has the moves of a knight
00:35:24 <coppro> you can places it only if it attacks two or more non-pawn pieces or delivers check
00:36:12 <zzo38> Yes, OK. I like that idea.
00:36:35 <zzo38> My idea too was it is kept in pocket initially
00:37:14 <zzo38> Then it is something like Pocket Knight chess.
00:45:45 <Sgeo> Whatever happened to Fourplay?
00:46:07 <zzo38> Sgeo: What is Fourplay?
00:46:13 <Sgeo> I think I linked to that idiot's blog who mentioned Fourplay a while ago
00:46:20 <Sgeo> Fourplay itself however is nt by idiots
00:46:26 <Sgeo> It's a nomicchess
00:46:35 <Sgeo> http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/fourplay/fourplay.html
00:46:41 <Sgeo> Probably not balanced, really
00:50:39 <tswett> zzo38: LaTeX and Microsoft Word can be compared?
00:51:38 <zzo38> tswett: Are you at Stanford University?
00:52:08 <tswett> No. I just know how to look the look.
00:58:26 <elliott> zzo38: He's in Stanford IN THE FUTURE.
01:06:51 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
01:07:49 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:07:56 -!- elliott has joined.
01:15:40 <elliott> Progress(TM): gcc have removed the option to inhibit warnings about #import without using -w, but not #import itself (despite wanting to deprecate it since 2003).
01:15:49 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
01:16:14 -!- pikhq has joined.
01:17:38 <elliott> (Oh well, -Wno-deprecated works.)
01:25:43 -!- quintopia has joined.
01:25:43 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host).
01:25:43 -!- quintopia has joined.
01:25:48 <zzo38> My TeX chess program is not only for FIDE chess. So after I finished I can post to Chess Variants, too, since you can also use it for other games, not only for FIDE chess.
01:38:29 -!- quintopia has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
01:38:49 -!- quintopia has joined.
01:39:27 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
01:46:41 -!- jcp has joined.
01:55:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:05:37 -!- cheater00 has joined.
02:13:10 -!- augur has joined.
02:43:27 <elliott> Vorpal: you know you ported c-intercal to mac os 9?
02:43:41 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:43:47 <Sgeo> It came up again
02:43:51 <Sgeo> The mysterious error
02:44:08 -!- copumpkin has joined.
02:44:22 * Sgeo clicks Cancel in the hopes that whatever debugger comes up will give him a hint
02:44:38 <elliott> Vorpal: I was thinking that it would be a lot easier if one simply wrote Cygwin for Mac OS.
02:44:40 <elliott> Vorpal: SO CLEARLY IT MUST BE DONE.
02:45:02 <elliott> And it must work on System Software 6, obviously. To become the best operating system!
02:45:04 <Sgeo> Isn't OS X a UNIX?
02:45:19 <Sgeo> Derivative of BSD, iirc?
02:45:38 <Sgeo> Or am I flat out mistaken? (Or somewhere in the middle)
02:46:04 <Sgeo> No, I am not trying to make that into a list containing merely data and placing the ' on the wrong side
02:47:42 <Sgeo> Nlo debugger came up
02:49:29 <elliott> zzo38: But older versions are not.
02:49:31 <zzo38> It even has a few GNU programs.
02:49:41 <elliott> It comes with gcc and Emacs, for one.
02:49:49 <elliott> And of course it's quite easy to compile your own.
02:49:55 <elliott> Well, comes with; gcc is part of Xcode.
02:50:08 <zzo38> Yes, I know those things.
02:50:37 <Sgeo> Is elliott ignoring me again?
02:51:17 <variable> Sgeo: mac is a derivative of mach and BSD
02:51:18 <zzo38> Sgeo: Maybe. I read your messages though.
02:51:36 <variable> and it has been certified as UNIX
02:51:40 <elliott> variable: Heavens, it's much more fun than that!
02:52:06 <variable> elliott: well yeah - it has its own stuff as well. It was mainly BSD + Mach + Cool looking shell
02:52:09 <elliott> variable: Mac OS X's kernel is XNU. XNU is 4.3BSD updated to FreeBSD, *running on top of Mach*.
02:52:49 <elliott> variable: But then drivers are written in a subset of C++ separately... for no apparent reason :)
02:53:02 <pikhq> Except not quite, as Win32 is merely an API implemented on top of NT.
02:53:09 <elliott> pikhq: No; Win32 is a subsystem.
02:53:18 <pikhq> Whereas XNU has an entire BSD kernel running on top of Mach.
02:53:20 <elliott> OK, so it's the Windows subsystem with the Win32 API.
02:53:23 <variable> elliott: because c++ has saner type safety and allows one to use nicer features like classes without exposing implementation
02:53:45 <elliott> variable: (1) I mean, why not use the BSD driver layer, and (2) I don't buy OOP propaganda :)
02:53:56 <elliott> Rather: I think that the goal of abstraction is obviously an admirable one, but I don't believe OOP is the best way to do it.
02:54:00 <variable> elliott: I wasn't think OOP (which has little to do with classes)
02:54:01 <pikhq> elliott: The OS X setup is more analogous to User Mode Linux than anything else, really.
02:54:15 <Sgeo> variable, ...saner than C, I assume. I assume that other languages are out of the question, otherwise "C++ is sane" is.. silly
02:54:24 <elliott> pikhq: Not quite. Mach is *designed* to have kernels run underneath it.
02:54:33 <elliott> pikhq: I mean, what do you think Hurd runs on top of?
02:54:54 <pikhq> Yes, but it's also designed to have those kernels actually *use* Mach.
02:55:11 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:55:17 <pikhq> Instead of, uh, using it as a pointless abstraction layer.
02:55:38 <elliott> variable: It doesn't even support USB! :)
02:55:59 <elliott> pikhq: It isn't *quite* pointless.
02:56:05 <Sgeo> Surely if Linux never existed, Hurd would be further along...
02:56:06 <elliott> pikhq: Mach gives the OS soft real-time support, for one.
02:56:16 <elliott> pikhq: And more importantly, the drivers run on top of Mach instead of BSD.
02:56:23 <elliott> = SPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED.
02:56:40 <elliott> Also, a lot of OS X drivers run in user-space, which would be "fun" to do with BSD.
02:57:12 <pikhq> Well, Linux actually has quite a few user-space drivers by now...
02:58:04 <elliott> Not in the 90s when nextstep was created :)
02:58:37 <elliott> pikhq: Anyway, RATE MY IDEA OF WRITING CYGWIN FOR MAC.
02:59:47 <elliott> pikhq: AFAIK microcosm can't actually run anything yet :P
03:00:13 <pikhq> It can run a few trivial things...
03:00:36 <elliott> pikhq: And I VERY MUCH DOUBT microcosm would work on a platform without stdin/out, with no more than ANSI C (unless you wrote Mac OS Classic-specific code!), ...
03:00:46 <elliott> pikhq: ... I doubt it will yield to other processes, ...
03:00:58 <pikhq> Oh, Mac OS Classic?
03:01:12 <pikhq> Yeah, that'd need to be a full kernel.
03:01:15 <elliott> pikhq: Mac OS X needs no Unix :P
03:01:23 <elliott> pikhq: What does Microcosm target, anyway?
03:01:27 <elliott> If it only works on other Unices it's a bit useless.
03:01:37 <pikhq> elliott: Any vaguely modern OS.
03:01:54 <elliott> Not far away from Windows :trollface:
03:01:56 <elliott> pikhq: Also, not necessarily a kernel; all Unix functions could yield.
03:02:02 <elliott> pikhq: Then only tight loops would lock up.
03:02:11 <elliott> pikhq: DOS has this problem, for instance :)
03:02:28 <elliott> pikhq: It'd be NICE to multitask with tight loops, but...
03:02:41 <elliott> pikhq: And I think you could hook a "stop it!" key right to the OS to terminate them.
03:05:16 <elliott> pikhq: Also, a Unix with only 8 megs of ram: FUN?
03:05:50 <pikhq> You can manage that without any real effort.
03:06:00 <pikhq> It just isn't going to be doing anything too fancy.
03:06:05 <elliott> pikhq: I WANT TO RUN GCC ON IT
03:07:14 <elliott> pikhq: djgpp ran with only 2 megs of ram at the start...
03:07:26 <elliott> pikhq: I could just port gcc 2 :)
03:07:57 <pikhq> Okay, you could probably get older GCC working fine.
03:08:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:08:18 <pikhq> *Modern* GCC can suck up gigs if you look at it wrong.
03:09:26 <elliott> pikhq: Seriously though, Mac OS is PERFECT for this.
03:09:35 <elliott> pikhq: You basically run as your own OS with a large graphical API.
03:13:19 <elliott> pikhq: In fact, if I implemented my own timer, I could do proper multithreading...
03:13:45 <elliott> pikhq: Awesomely though, every Unix application would stop if you tabbed away.
03:14:03 <pikhq> Hah, forcing Mac OS into proper multithreading.
03:14:57 <elliott> pikhq: I dunno if it's worth it though :p
03:28:30 <lambdabot> [3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,...
03:41:22 <Ilari> Hmm... Did British Secondary Prevention Trial inadvertently end up reproducing Lyon Diet-Heart stydy (one of the most successful dietary trials ever) in reverse?
03:53:12 -!- augur has joined.
03:54:08 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:58:10 <zzo38> Ilari: What is that?
04:00:38 -!- oerjan has joined.
04:05:24 -!- augur has joined.
04:09:53 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
04:12:44 <oerjan> elliott: i see you have discussed optbot more. i'd like to repeat/point out that my basic executive decision in this case is that if optbot is to change the topic, it _must_ look at the topic that is already set, and preserve what others have put there. i suggest changing only the part after the last |.
04:12:44 <optbot> oerjan: What does `ls' do on VMS
04:12:56 <elliott> oerjan: when was that your executive decision?
04:13:02 <elliott> I don't recall you ever saying that, not in 2008 and not in 2011
04:13:12 <elliott> and that was never optbot's behaviour
04:13:12 <optbot> elliott: what do you think about that?
04:13:25 <elliott> not according to herobrine
04:13:36 <oerjan> well it's what i _thought_.
04:14:20 <elliott> well, i'll just take it down then, since it'd be a huge pain to make the code do that, and also generate really clipped topics because of the limit
04:15:13 <oerjan> ok i may have also allowed an actual optbot command that other people than you can use.
04:15:26 <elliott> oerjan: that'd still clip topics
04:15:57 <oerjan> i'd point out that both options are considerably more lenient than what some other people suggested.
04:16:14 <zzo38> Another option is just remove the topic changing.
04:16:15 <elliott> some other people = Gregor
04:16:40 -!- azaq23 has joined.
04:16:45 <elliott> where's your sense of fun gone i ask!
04:17:37 <zzo38> Another another option is that it changes immediately if the log URL is missing, otherwise it changes it seven days after the previous change (including changes by other users).
04:18:23 <oerjan> zzo38: it appears that elliott does not think actually paying attention to TOPIC commands is a reasonable change.
04:18:33 <elliott> It's not about reasonability, it's about feasibility.
04:18:54 <elliott> The topic limit <<< the message limit, and optbot does messages, + the overhead it has now is about max before it sarts chopping unreasonably
04:18:54 <optbot> elliott: http://www.google.com/search?q=x-directory&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:unofficial&client=iceweasel-a#hl=en&client=iceweasel-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:unofficial&&sa=X&ei=b6bZTJbjCOaV4gbn2qS8CA&ved=0CBEQvgUoAA&q=%2B%22application/x-directory%22&nfpr=1&fp=8ec2bc6eb6ca6ae0
04:19:01 <zzo38> Then, just make it never change the topic message.
04:19:12 <elliott> that's 50% of the fun of optbot, so i'd rather take it down.
04:19:12 <optbot> elliott: i meant to run it in the Integer -> Program direction, fwiw
04:19:27 <oerjan> elliott: well _most_ irc messages aren't that long.
04:19:38 <elliott> oerjan: no, but the topic limit is quite a bit less.
04:19:46 <elliott> and it has a hundred or so overhead.
04:20:19 <oerjan> i think the message limit including nick prefix is 510 or so
04:20:41 <zzo38> Or change the message only when "PRIVMSG optbot :TOPIC" is received, is another way.
04:20:46 <optbot> zzo38: But seriously, nobody would pay that much for a drive.
04:21:03 <zzo38> Do it for free then.
04:22:06 <oerjan> elliott: hm a suggestion, put a link to tunes in your own logs, then we can remove tunes from the topic.
04:22:32 <elliott> oerjan: that might work, but does not solve the issue that user-added topics will be far longer anyway.
04:22:32 <oerjan> (you may have already done so afaik, i only visit individual dates)
04:23:16 <zzo38> No I don't like it, I think tunes log should always be available there it is the official policy.
04:23:53 <oerjan> zzo38: um the official policy surely is that _some_ logs must be there if there are any...
04:24:12 <zzo38> You could delete the word "logs:" and write "http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | " as the prefix.
04:24:19 <zzo38> Since "logs" is in the URL.
04:24:25 <elliott> it doesn't need logs in the URL.
04:26:16 <zzo38> elliott: It doesn't, but since "logs" is already in the URL, the prefix "logs: " can be removed. However, I (and others) still think you should make it optbot not changing topic message.
04:40:19 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | I KNOW.
04:42:41 <oerjan> ok current compromise is a 12 hour timeout after anyone changes the topic.
04:42:49 -!- zzo38 has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | I DON'T KNOW.
04:43:25 <zzo38> oerjan: That might work. Keeping track of the last change of *anyone* is important.
04:44:12 <oerjan> if/when something longer is needed, either elliott or an op should be able to take action in that time.
04:44:35 <elliott> compromise for when i'm not lazy, mind you.
04:44:57 <oerjan> (i'm just summarizing mine and elliott's private conversation so it's official)
04:45:05 <zzo38> elliott: OK, then for now just disable that feature until you get less lazy to be able to correct it.
04:45:06 <elliott> we don't have private conversations
04:45:07 <elliott> what are you talking about?
04:45:24 <elliott> zzo38: nah; if someone really has something desperately urgent to put in the topic in the next few days, oerjan or fizzie can +t
04:45:32 <elliott> it's a mythical situation, but just in case :)
04:45:36 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:45:36 <elliott> then I'll fix it, because I'll be less lazy.
04:45:41 <oerjan> elliott: it was done by telepathy. your consciousness may not have perceived it yet.
04:45:53 -!- augur has joined.
04:46:08 <oerjan> expect strange dreams.
04:46:20 * elliott backs slowly away from oerjan
04:46:24 <elliott> you weren't joking about the wet furry porn
04:46:38 <zzo38> I often have a strange dream
04:47:07 <zzo38> A lot (not all) of them, is ones with no words (or picture) to explain.
04:48:14 <zzo38> And what kind of reason is there in such dreams why Achilles cannot catch the Tortoise?
04:48:36 <quintopia> where you have to get on a conveyor belt and lie down
04:48:57 <quintopia> and it just does all the airporty stuff while you lay there and wait for it to take you to your plane
04:49:55 <quintopia> it was poorly designed in the dream, but the basic premise would be nice
04:50:47 <zzo38> It would work for tired people with no packages, no money, and no hunger.
04:51:12 <oerjan> no packages are fine, they can also go on the belt.
04:51:24 <zzo38> It might work a little bit in some other cases too, possibly, but I don't know quite.
04:52:00 <zzo38> Do they need to put the separator bars so you know whose package it is?
04:52:03 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> It would work for tired people with no packages, no money, and no hunger.
04:52:58 <oerjan> also you could solve the hunger part by having some of those things from manufacturing belts that they use to fill food packages
04:53:03 <zzo38> Separator bars might help a little bit in current airport, but then barcodes would also be required. Otherwise you always lose all packages
04:53:21 <oerjan> you better be positioned right on the belt when that happens
04:53:42 <elliott> quintopia: do the tsa just run up to you and grope you?
04:53:48 <elliott> "this won't take a second."
04:53:49 <zzo38> oerjan: Still, if you are tired you might prefer to be lying on the conveyor belt. Other people who are not tired might prefer to stand up.
04:54:20 <oerjan> elliott: hey they could give an actual MRI scan then. would solve that bombs in your cavities problem.
04:54:30 <zzo38> Or else, sit down on the chair and go in the plane from walking outside.
04:54:34 <elliott> I've got a bomb in my cavity hur hur I don't even know what that would mean
04:54:37 <Sgeo> I posted a dream of mine online a while ago
04:54:41 <oerjan> CLEARLY THIS IS THE FUTURE
04:54:44 <Sgeo> Ok, so that's 3 dreams
04:54:47 <zzo38> But lying down on conveyor belt would help if you are tired.
04:54:48 <Sgeo> http://www.dreamviews.com/f107/sgeos-dream-journal-53892/
04:54:48 <Sgeo> And http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/sgeo/alternate-universe-elevator-1827/
04:55:04 <oerjan> elliott: disturbingly, it can mean exactly what it sounds like.
04:55:16 <elliott> oerjan: you mean a thing that can blow up in my cavity?!?!?!?!
04:55:41 <elliott> oh wait, just got another telepathic communication from you. jesus christ. well, now i know what "i've got a bomb in my cavity" could mean.
04:55:46 <elliott> not sure i want to though.
04:56:16 <quintopia> elliott: ROBOTS DO THE GROPING. THEY HAVE NO FEELING. THEY WON'T POP A BONER.\
04:56:44 <elliott> quintopia: but do they handle the recipient ``popping a boner'' to use your crude American terminology?
04:56:49 <oerjan> mind you an MRI scan would give new meaning to the "please remove metal objects" part
04:57:02 <zzo38> Is HackEgo broken again?
04:57:19 <elliott> maybe the airport could just have a total nudity rule.
04:57:35 <quintopia> elliott: i'll leave it to you to design a robot that can tell the difference between a pipe bomb and
04:58:17 <oerjan> elliott: i'm sure i've seen approximations to that joke (well not the goatse) in several comics, including dilbert.
04:58:31 <oerjan> actually, maybe even the goatse.
04:58:44 <zzo38> Regardless of how they do it, I no longer go on airplanes anyways; I have already for a few years, decided to stop using airport.
04:58:46 * oerjan is not quite sure about that.
04:59:51 -!- azaq23 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
05:00:50 <elliott> zzo38: have you ever been on an aeroplane?
05:02:55 <zzo38> elliott: Yes I have once. But even then, and even more now, they do all stupid things with the surveillance, lost packages, prohibition of items on planes, and various other things.
05:03:10 <elliott> zzo38: i think they shouldn't prohibit bombs on planes. What do you think?
05:03:22 <zzo38> So, just go by boat if you need to go across the ocean.
05:04:20 <elliott> zzo38: i prefer to go overseas by train
05:04:25 <zzo38> elliott: I'm not sure, but I meant other things, such as nail files, toner cartridges, pencil and paper, and a lot of others.
05:04:34 <zzo38> elliott: Is there a train in the water?
05:04:47 <elliott> It exists, in your imagination
05:05:27 * oerjan wonders if the dilbert one may even have been pre-2001
05:05:57 <oerjan> i mean it's precisely the kind of dystopian idea scott adams _would_ get
05:06:12 <elliott> trying to remember why i hate scott sdams
05:06:49 <oerjan> elliott: i assume his comics have degraded like most long-time runners, and now he sucks?
05:06:52 <zzo38> I had a dream once, there was various clubs in a building, for the pokemon element types, and also the administration club. The administration club was not permitted to have any members.
05:06:55 <elliott> oerjan: no no unrelated to his comics
05:07:06 <elliott> oerjan: he posted some ridiculously stupid anti-scientific thing to his blog once so i started hating him
05:07:11 <oerjan> ah. some absurd opinion...
05:07:30 <elliott> oerjan: is that you going throough the list of things i mate hate people for?
05:08:08 <elliott> http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2007/08/poster-child-fo.html ;; well here he misinterprets "atheist" and is stupid about it.
05:08:22 <oerjan> <elliott> zzo38: i prefer to go overseas by train <-- underseas, you mean
05:08:56 <zzo38> elliott: It probably is not a train, even if they call it a train, it isn't.
05:09:10 <elliott> there's railtracks under the water, it grows legs to connect to them
05:09:43 <oerjan> zzo38: i am now going to annoy elliott by pointing out that he is joking.
05:09:44 <zzo38> Each pokemon element type club has two ways of being a member (and no payment is required).
05:10:13 <elliott> oerjan: <elliott> It exists, in your imagination
05:10:28 <oerjan> elliott: also not a list, i vaguely recall you mention that adams thing before
05:10:45 <elliott> oerjan: not interesting enough to donate brain cpu cycles to :D
05:10:57 <oerjan> elliott: this is not cpu, it's memory
05:11:10 <elliott> oerjan: it hogs cpu cycles to access memory and process it
05:11:13 <zzo38> O, in your imagination, you can make it whatever you want including illogical things in seventeen thousand dimensional space with one is not both the same.
05:11:18 <elliott> thinking is much easier than remembering :)
05:11:30 <elliott> remembering is less "work".
05:11:43 <elliott> oerjan: what i'm saying is, use Checkout for your brain, bro
05:13:19 <elliott> spirited away is kinda one big gob in my head.
05:13:20 <oerjan> zzo38: seventeen thousand dimensional space is not illogical, mind you. although maybe a little inconvenient.
05:14:10 <zzo38> Sgeo: I also had some dream about not push the buttons in elevator door.
05:14:22 <oerjan> well actually for linear algebra it may even be convenient.
05:14:26 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
05:14:37 <zzo38> oerjan: I did not mean that 17000 dimension space is illogical, I meant you have illogical imagination things in it.
05:15:35 -!- jix has joined.
05:15:52 <zzo38> Here is URL about my dream (look for the line with "*I was looking at programs for different programming languages." for the one about the elevator button)
05:15:55 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/misc/weird_dream/dream.txt
05:16:22 <zzo38> The one with @ instead of * is somebody else, I just collected the information. The one with * is my own.
05:17:37 -!- tswett has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
05:18:16 -!- tswett has joined.
05:18:23 <Sgeo> Undefined things happened.
05:18:47 -!- azaq23 has joined.
05:19:34 <zzo38> Sgeo: In a dream, such things is possible as undefined things happened.
05:19:45 * Sgeo goes to press a random button in zzo38's elevator
05:21:41 <oerjan> beware of the button saying "outer space"
05:22:21 <oerjan> you will _not_ enjoy it when the doors open
05:22:55 <quintopia> zzo38: have your dreams ever solved major problems in real life?
05:23:14 <quintopia> zzo38: for instance, the answer to what's the difference between a duck?
05:23:30 * oerjan swats quintopia -----###
05:23:40 <zzo38> Not as far as I can remember. However, I cannot remember, so I don't know.
05:23:46 <oerjan> btw did you finish your scoring system
05:24:05 <zzo38> What scoring system? Whose scoring system?
05:25:48 <quintopia> because, i'm too lazy to reimplement linear algebra, and i've heard gregor will not allow lapack, so i have to wait on him to tell me with linear algebra library i'm allowed to use.
05:25:54 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:26:21 <oerjan> i thought that might be a stumbling block :/
05:26:30 <Gregor> I didn't say I wouldn't ALLOW lapack, just that I wasn't going to learn it myself just to write a friggin' BFJoust scoreboard calculator :P
05:27:15 <quintopia> oic. so if i learn it, you'll allow it?
05:27:33 <Gregor> Well, so long as it's reasonably easy to install :P
05:27:39 <Gregor> I assume it's in Debian.
05:29:32 <oerjan> http://packages.qa.debian.org/l/lapack.html
05:45:59 -!- aloril has quit (*.net *.split).
05:48:41 -!- asiekierka has joined.
05:51:05 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:52:33 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
05:52:37 -!- aloril has joined.
05:52:52 -!- SimonRC has joined.
05:54:59 -!- cheater00 has quit (*.net *.split).
05:54:59 -!- shachaf has quit (*.net *.split).
05:54:59 -!- Sgeo has quit (*.net *.split).
05:54:59 -!- Leonidas has quit (*.net *.split).
05:54:59 -!- mycroftiv has quit (*.net *.split).
06:08:21 -!- asiekierka has quit (Excess Flood).
06:08:25 -!- asiekierka has joined.
06:10:41 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
06:11:43 -!- copumpkin has joined.
06:15:52 -!- cheater00 has joined.
06:15:54 -!- shachaf has joined.
06:15:54 -!- Sgeo has joined.
06:15:54 -!- Leonidas has joined.
06:15:54 -!- mycroftiv has joined.
06:20:22 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | It's just a few vetical pixels at the top..
06:20:34 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
06:22:30 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: I was thinking that it would be a lot easier if one simply wrote Cygwin for Mac OS. <elliott> Vorpal: SO CLEARLY IT MUST BE DONE. <-- oh my
06:26:22 <Vorpal> <elliott> pikhq: And I think you could hook a "stop it!" key right to the OS to terminate them. <-- MacBugs?
06:27:31 <Vorpal> <elliott> pikhq: I dunno if it's worth it though :p <-- depends on what standard. #esoteric? Hell yeah!
06:36:11 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:39:20 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
06:39:27 -!- SimonRC has joined.
06:57:37 -!- augur has joined.
07:04:47 <coppro> man, my respect for Al Gore just went up
07:08:29 <coppro> I read about how he, as president of the senate, correctly enforced a rule that ultimately led to him losing the election
07:10:42 -!- TLUL has joined.
07:12:23 <coppro> the specific rule was that challenging a state's electoral result requires the signature of a representative and a senator from that state, and there was no senator signed on
07:20:18 <pikhq> Shame, too. Al Gore damned well should've been President.
07:20:28 <pikhq> Aaaand may or may not have actually won.
07:22:34 <coppro> but he upheld the law and denied himself the opportunity to win; which is very honorable
07:24:46 -!- elliott has joined.
07:24:53 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
07:24:53 -!- elliott has joined.
07:25:20 <coppro> also, fun legal fact: the constitution of canada is not a set whose elements are all known
07:27:00 <pikhq> I thought Canada actually had a well-defined legal system?
07:27:08 <coppro> We have a constitution act which says
07:27:14 <coppro> (2) The Constitution of Canada includes
07:27:15 <coppro> (a) the Canada Act 1982, including this Act;
07:27:15 <coppro> (b) the Acts and orders referred to in the schedule; and
07:27:15 <coppro> (c) any amendment to any Act or order referred to in paragraph (a) or (b).
07:27:26 <coppro> however, it also includes a bunch of other things
07:27:32 <coppro> like parliamentary privelege
07:27:53 <coppro> which has in particular been confirmed by the supreme court to actually be a part of the constitution
07:28:06 <pikhq> Unlike the UK, where even the premise of the government being divine right isn't well-defined...
07:28:31 <pikhq> coppro: ... Oh, great, your supreme court is as fucking nuts as ours.
07:28:50 <coppro> actually, I think I have to agree
07:29:11 <coppro> privelege is mentioned in the constitution act but never explicitly defined
07:29:21 <elliott> wonder how long humans can actually keep up this only sleeping every other day thing
07:29:25 <pikhq> I see nothing in clause 2 of the Constitution Act there that would include parliamentary privilege...
07:29:47 <coppro> 18. The privileges, immunities, and powers to be held, enjoyed, and exercised by the Senate and by the House of Commons, and by the members thereof respectively, shall be such as are from time to time defined by Act of the Parliament of Canada, but so that any Act of the Parliament of Canada defining such privileges, immunities, and powers shall not confer any privileges, immunities, or powers exceeding those at the passing of such Act held,
07:29:59 <pikhq> elliott: Depends: how long are you sleeping?
07:29:59 <coppro> from a different part of the constitution act
07:30:13 <elliott> pikhq: too long... like 11 hrs, but would be 12 if not for alarms andsuch
07:30:25 <pikhq> coppro: Yup, definitely not in the Canadian constitution. Merely means of defining such.
07:32:01 <elliott> but it's better than waking up at 5pm.
07:32:01 <elliott> i hate my circadian rhythm :(
07:32:01 <pikhq> elliott: You almost certainly have a sleeping disorder.
07:32:01 <coppro> in this particular case, the privilege was the long-standing parliamentary privilege of excluding strangers; a TV company wanted to film the proceedings of the Nova Scotian legislature, but the legislature wouldn't let the cameras in
07:32:01 <elliott> feeling tired already, definitely a record, probably should have slept this time, oh well, coffee
07:32:01 <pikhq> Of course, that much we already knew.
07:32:01 <coppro> the TV company cited freedom of speech, of course
07:32:01 <elliott> pikhq: i'm fucking buying melatonin today
07:32:01 <pikhq> coppro: Strange that they'd cite the constitution for that.
07:32:07 <pikhq> coppro: Surely freedom of speech doesn't mandate that they have the right to record everything, everywhere?
07:32:34 <elliott> 06:06:41 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: I was thinking that it would be a lot easier if one simply wrote Cygwin for Mac OS. <elliott> Vorpal: SO CLEARLY IT MUST BE DONE. <-- oh my
07:32:35 <elliott> 06:10:34 <Vorpal> <elliott> pikhq: And I think you could hook a "stop it!" key right to the OS to terminate them. <-- MacBugs?
07:32:35 <elliott> 06:11:43 <Vorpal> <elliott> pikhq: I dunno if it's worth it though :p <-- depends on what standard. #esoteric? Hell yeah!
07:32:43 <elliott> (3) i mean the "make tight loops not hang" thing
07:32:44 <pikhq> coppro: Also strange that you don't have your proceedings recorded already... I know here that the federal government *itself* actually does video recording of the entire proceedings of Congress.
07:32:44 <coppro> pikhq: No, but the SCC decided that the privilege is itself constitutional and thus not subject to obeying the rights set out in the Charter
07:33:01 <elliott> pikhq: can i have so much coffee
07:33:06 <pikhq> coppro: How very strange; I'd think that human rights would be irrelevant.
07:33:38 <coppro> pikhq: it's gets muddled when it's government business, because there are some very deep rights there
07:33:51 <coppro> a citizen's right to know what the government is doing, and the government's right not to tell them
07:34:14 <coppro> The federal government here records the House of Commons and committees of both chambers; the Senate itself has not authorized video recordings
07:34:26 <coppro> transcripts are available in both French and English by the next day online
07:34:38 <coppro> (which is, incidentally, absolutely insane)
07:35:04 <coppro> (they also do live translation of proceedings so that anyone can participate in either language)
07:35:25 <pikhq> "Aaaah", multilingual society.
07:35:38 <pikhq> Though if our government was *sane*, they'd probably have to do the same.
07:35:48 <pikhq> Remember, the US has *no* official language at all.
07:36:11 <pikhq> That is but *one* important language in the US.
07:36:43 <pikhq> Perhaps the one most likely to be relevant...
07:36:55 <elliott> pikhq: i should make cygmac work on system software 1 :D
07:37:21 <pikhq> But there's rather a *lot* of languages spoken here, even if you discount those languages which have mostly bilingual native speakers.
07:37:48 <coppro> popping the stack a little, the issue that is really sticky about the scope of the constitution is that the constitution says that an amendment to the constitution that changes the composition of the Supreme Court requires unanimous consent of the provinces.
07:37:55 <coppro> Sounds great, except for one minor detail
07:38:46 <coppro> the composition of the Supreme Court is defined in the Supreme Court of Canada Act, which is not in the schedule
07:39:16 <coppro> some people hold this to mean that this requirement on amendment would apply only if the SCC were explicitly moved into the constitution
07:39:27 <coppro> others hold it to mean that the SCCA is implicitly part of the constitution
07:40:32 <pikhq> Pushing to the stack again. There's 35 million people who speak primarily Spanish in the US. *Damn*.
07:40:55 <pikhq> Making the USA have the second-largest Spanish-speaking community in the world.
07:41:06 <coppro> moreover, the SCA predates that part of the constitution by a long time
07:41:12 <elliott> thati sn't pushing to the stack
07:41:15 <elliott> thats calling the continuation
07:41:24 <pikhq> elliott: Fuck you and your "accurate semantics".
07:41:24 <elliott> your conversational control structures are spaghetti
07:41:37 <coppro> moreover, this is potentially relevant as there is a bill passing through the Senate right now to change the selection requirements for Supreme Court justices, although I expect it has about a snowball's chance in hell of actually passing
07:41:38 <elliott> man wyh do yyou have to type the keys in order
07:41:41 <elliott> that's a bad thing about keyboards.
07:41:53 <elliott> should just press them all at once, and it uses a dictionary :/
07:42:09 <pikhq> coppro: T3h groans.
07:42:12 -!- sftp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:42:21 <coppro> (and it would fail if the supreme court is found to be part of the constitution as it would then require a bunch of provinces to agree)
07:42:42 <coppro> (although, oddly enough, it would make it irrelevant that the Conservatives control the Senate)
07:43:22 <elliott> you're currently in the spanish stack frame
07:43:55 <coppro> elliott: no, I stayed behind; it's a cactus stack
07:44:17 <elliott> coppro: your conversational system is so inelegant. horrible hacky whore language on top of spaghetti control.
07:44:25 <coppro> elliott: I speak in Perl
07:44:27 <elliott> from now on I will talk only in Has<THUNK>
07:45:47 <coppro> uh oh, elliott's not currying properly
07:45:52 <coppro> where's the nearest indian restaurant?
07:46:24 <elliott> you forced evaluati** Exception: undefined
07:46:46 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
07:46:54 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
07:48:04 <coppro> pikhq_: what did you miss?
07:48:25 <pikhq_> 01:26 < coppro> (and it would fail if the supreme court is found to be part of the constitution as it would then require a bunch of provinces to agree)
07:48:34 <elliott> <coppro> (although, oddly enough, it would make it irrelevant that the Conservatives control the Senate)
07:48:39 <coppro> 03:26 < coppro> (although, oddly enough, it would make it irrelevant that the Conservatives control the Senate)
07:48:42 <coppro> 03:27 < elliott> you're currently in the spanish stack frame
07:48:45 <elliott> pikhq_: use an irc bouncer or something srsly :P
07:48:45 <coppro> 03:27 < elliott> thoguht you should know
07:48:47 <coppro> 03:28 < coppro> elliott: no, I stayed behind; it's a cactus stack
07:48:50 <coppro> 03:28 < elliott> coppro: your conversational system is so inelegant. horrible hacky whore language on top of spaghetti control.
07:48:51 -!- elliott has left (?).
07:48:53 <coppro> 03:28 < coppro> elliott: I speak in Perl
07:48:53 -!- elliott has joined.
07:48:55 <coppro> 03:28 < elliott> from now on I will talk only in Has<THUNK>
07:48:58 <coppro> 03:30 < coppro> uh oh, elliott's not currying properly
07:49:00 <coppro> 03:30 < coppro> where's the nearest indian restaurant?
07:49:03 <elliott> i should have to hodl down every modifier I have to close the window
07:49:05 <coppro> 03:30 < elliott> you forced evaluati** Exception: undefined
07:49:19 <elliott> or with coppro maybe the opposite
07:49:24 <elliott> if his message matches ".win" it just does it
07:50:21 <coppro> I need to hack my irssi so as to warn me every time I send a message that looks anything like a window switch
07:50:26 <elliott> http://www.emaculation.com/doku.php/basilisk_ii So does anyone see a source link on this page?
07:50:41 <elliott> unless they just compile the old jit release they call a historic archive
07:50:52 <elliott> coppro: do what i do, only be in two channels, so much less confusing
07:50:56 <elliott> still manage to part them on a regular basis tho
07:51:26 <coppro> elliott: I'm at about 25
07:51:43 <coppro> your method sounds lame
07:51:53 <elliott> i think my natural hatred of people helps me stay out of too many channels
07:52:21 <coppro> ah, yeah, people are dumb
07:52:55 <elliott> only sleeps once every two days
07:52:57 <elliott> what kind of moron does that
07:53:37 <elliott> you know, usually i even fix typos
07:53:43 <elliott> but that seems pretty hard at this point
07:53:44 <coppro> my faculty is very efficient
07:53:51 <coppro> we have an entire combinatorics and optimization department
07:54:00 <elliott> can you just never sleepif you drink enough coffee, i think this might be practical for me
07:54:29 <elliott> as in mathematical. saying "oh a bunch of people did this and died" doesn't count.
07:54:32 <elliott> start from peano arithmetic
07:54:46 <coppro> I time traveled to the future and brought back your corpse after you went insane, thought yourself an automobile, and got run over on the motorway
07:54:52 <elliott> you may assume as an axiom that things exist
07:55:00 <elliott> that is the one additional axiom you may assume
07:55:18 <coppro> that axiom is inconsistent with the coffee axiom
07:55:25 <elliott> coffee makes things not exist?
07:55:33 <coppro> in sufficiently large quantities, yes
07:55:34 <elliott> almost as deep as the sleep i'd like to be in.
07:55:45 <elliott> yeah unfortunately i haven't hallucinated yet with this sleep dep
07:55:50 <elliott> mostly i'm just irritable and tired
07:56:03 <elliott> things would be unicorns and stuff, hallucinations are obviously just like nethack
07:56:06 <elliott> coppro: omg, but short is only 16 bits.
07:56:13 <coppro> sleep dep gives boring hallucinations
07:56:19 <coppro> elliott: everything you know is wrong
07:56:22 <coppro> just forget the words and sing along
07:56:30 <elliott> <coppro> sleep dep gives boring hallucinations
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:01:55 -!- clog has joined.
08:01:55 <elliott> checking for gcc... gcc-4.5
08:01:55 <elliott> checking whether we are using the GNU C compiler... no
08:01:55 <elliott> checking whether gcc-4.5 accepts -g... no
08:02:38 <elliott> configure:4076: checking whether we are using the GNU C compiler
08:02:39 <elliott> configure:4095: gcc-4.5 -c conftest.c >&5
08:02:39 <elliott> configure: failed program was:
08:02:44 <elliott> $? = 0 means it worked, autoconf.
08:03:30 <elliott> it keeps assuming that because it worked and $? was 0 that everything failed after that :)
08:03:38 <elliott> which explains why it's all "oh no, you don't have any headers basically".
08:03:53 <elliott> configure:4255: gcc-4.5 -qlanglvl=extc89 -c conftest.c >&5
08:03:53 <elliott> gcc-4.5: unrecognized option '-qlanglvl=extc89'
08:03:53 <elliott> configure: failed program was:
08:23:39 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*).
08:29:47 <elliott> what's the best archive format to distribute code for a 68k mac emulator in
08:29:52 <elliott> obviously the author of mini vmac
08:29:58 <elliott> decided "a macintosh disk image"
08:30:16 <elliott> i swear to god, it's a bootstrapped mac emulator
08:33:29 <pikhq_> To play devil's advocate here, can't OS X mount those old disk images?
08:36:45 <elliott> pikhq_: but more importantl
08:36:53 <elliott> pikhq_: the build system is a mac os <=6 application
08:37:17 <elliott> http://minivmac.sourceforge.net/doc/build.html
08:37:20 <elliott> First download the source code archive from the download page, a file with the name “minivmac-3.1.3.src.zip”. Extract from this zip file a disk image (named “minivmac-3.1.3.src.dsk”).
08:37:20 <elliott> Now launch Mini vMac (version 3.0.0 or later), booting from a disk image containing a system folder. (The source code disk image doesn't contain a system folder.) (See the Start page for information about getting started with Mini vMac.)
08:37:20 <elliott> Mount the source code disk image in Mini vMac. At the top level of this disk is an application named "Build". Launch this application. A text editing window will open in which to type in the desired options.
08:37:27 <elliott> pikhq_: it's literally a bootstrapped macintosh emulator.
08:37:39 <elliott> source distributed as a macintosh boot image, compileable with a macintosh, or a prebuilt verison of itself.
08:37:59 <elliott> pikhq_: you will note that this is insane. It does CROSS COMPILING
08:38:16 <elliott> OK, it... extracts into the host system or something.
08:38:21 <elliott> So its configure is just a mac app I DON'T KNOW
08:39:43 <pikhq_> I should sleep. It's 02:23.
08:40:22 <pikhq_> And I intend to do my diff eq. homework before class tomorrow.
09:11:02 <elliott> pikhq_: echo hello >:foo.c; cp foo.c ::; mv ::foo.c :bar.c
09:11:09 <elliott> BEHOLD: MAC PATHNAMES IN UNIX
09:27:26 -!- Guest1055 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
09:32:58 -!- Guest1055 has joined.
09:45:24 <elliott> olsner: in my mind!! with magic!!!
09:45:37 <elliott> olsner: i want to implement cygwin for classic mac os. and even have a vague idea how.
09:45:54 <olsner> wow, that's .. suitably crazy
09:46:03 <elliott> olsner: not cygwin itself, but, you know
09:46:17 <elliott> olsner: oh, and i want it to work on System Software 6 too. :)
09:46:27 <olsner> generally broken layer of brokenness on top of a broken os, check
09:46:29 <elliott> which looks like this. http://www.operating-system.org/betriebssystem/bsgfx/apple/system6-scr-03.jpg
09:46:43 <elliott> olsner: old classic mac os isn't broken, just... selective... as to what it wants to acheive
09:46:57 <olsner> nice redefinition of not broken there
09:47:20 <elliott> says the person using the broken os linux
09:54:58 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
10:11:24 -!- pikhq has joined.
10:11:57 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
10:21:43 <elliott> Come on little mac, load the page, load the page!
10:29:20 -!- cheater99 has joined.
10:30:51 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:35:23 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
10:35:53 -!- copumpkin has joined.
10:43:02 -!- Kufiyeh has joined.
10:44:22 -!- Kufiyeh has quit (Client Quit).
10:45:09 -!- Kufiyeh has joined.
10:53:37 -!- Kufiyeh has left (?).
11:06:46 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
11:12:26 <cheater99> http://morgsatlarge.wordpress.com/2011/03/13/why-i-am-not-worried-about-japans-nuclear-reactors/
11:12:57 -!- copumpkin has joined.
11:31:22 <elliott> 12:36:04 <ais523> AnMaster: that doesn't solve the issue, in fact it introduces an issue, that being that the tabstops are no longer 8
11:31:22 <elliott> this log has so much circular logic it hurts
11:45:19 <elliott> unless it's a really persistent troll that he's kept up for years and strongly abides by :)
11:45:49 <elliott> (the "TABS=8 AND EVERYONE WHO THINKS TABS!=8 EVER IS WRONG" thing; not that he ever gives a decent argument for it, but this was basically like 3 hours of circular argumentation from him in the logs)
11:45:49 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
11:46:09 -!- Vorpal has joined.
11:47:01 <elliott> hey Vorpal, does that ick on mac classic thing actually work :)
11:48:56 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:49:00 -!- elliott_ has joined.
11:49:07 <elliott_> Vorpal: where did you download mpw from anyway
11:50:27 <fizzie> It used to be on Apple's FTP, at least.
11:50:41 <fizzie> The FTP links at http://developer.apple.com/tools/mpw-tools/ seem dead at the moment, though.
11:51:39 <fizzie> Well, it wasn't long ago (less than three years, I'd guess) that it still worked.
11:51:46 <elliott_> yes but the port thing was 2009.
11:52:01 <elliott_> i pretty much just want mpw 3 so i can write a unix kernel for system 6 :D
11:52:05 <elliott_> tbh i might want to develop on a later version
11:54:03 <fizzie> How about http://mirrors.vanadac.com/ftp.apple.com/developer/Tool_Chest/Core_Mac_OS_Tools/MPW_etc./ then?
11:54:38 <elliott_> fizzie: whoaa. it's reflecting into my screen-space-visor-vision.
11:55:01 <elliott_> to to figure out what GM vs PR is
11:55:05 <fizzie> Still haven't slept, eh?
11:55:53 <fizzie> "The MPW-GM folder contains a complete Golden Master version of the MPW development environment including the MPW Shell, tools, interfaces and libraries. The software in this folder is considered to be "final" quality. The MPW-PR folder contains Pre-Release versions of some of the software components that make up the MPW development environment."
11:56:24 <fizzie> The Game Master version.
11:56:41 <elliott_> isn't this just the newest version?
11:57:01 <elliott_> i kind of require the version that works on system software 6 which i think is 3 and erliar :)
11:57:25 <fizzie> Ahm'k; that might be more problemostic, yes.
11:57:54 <fizzie> The FTP'd one does require 7.5.
11:58:04 <elliott_> fizzie: whoa. this is how you sneak your bad spellungs into my mindbrane!!
11:58:11 <elliott_> you do it, when i am not conscious, in the fullest degree!!!
11:58:16 <elliott_> that's sneaky and you're bad! i have noticed this!
11:58:25 <elliott_> wonder if i could stick to the ceiling
11:59:29 <olsner> apply enough duck/duct/gaffer tape and I bet you could
12:00:32 <fizzie> Curiously enough, "jesus tape" is the most common Finnish nickname for it. Or even "jesse" or some-such.
12:00:36 -!- variable has joined.
12:01:13 <elliott_> jesus tpae. that's nice i like that
12:14:06 <elliott_> my operationg system is based on it
12:20:11 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | Uh, I had a question but I've almost forgotten it..
12:38:53 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:43:26 <elliott_> ais523: inspired by the port of C-INTERCAL to classic Mac OS, I have become highly tempted to try writing Cygwin for Classic Mac OS
12:43:38 <elliott_> because, perfect match, right?
12:43:45 <elliott_> (not actual Cygwin, just... a unix layer)
12:43:45 <ais523> wow, that's a thought that my mind can't actually finish thinking
12:43:48 <ais523> it gets stuck halfway through
12:43:53 <ais523> so it must be a really incredibly bad idea
12:44:06 <elliott_> ais523: yes, and really incredibly bad ideas are also known as really good ideas!
12:44:08 <ais523> and I will now attempt to forget what it was to save my sanity
12:44:44 <elliott_> ais523: Well hey, C-INTERCAL supports m86k-macos-unknown-mpw (or whatever the thing would be), get ready to support m86k-macos-unknown-gnu!
12:44:50 <elliott_> ais523: Did that patch ever get committed, btw?
12:45:05 <ais523> not by me because I didn't review it
12:45:10 <ais523> not by esr because it didn't have timestamps
12:45:16 <ais523> I'm not sure which reason is more spurious
12:45:28 <ais523> as in, the changes weren't dated with when they were made
12:45:35 <elliott_> also, you could just say you were looking for an excuse to reject it :P
12:46:49 <elliott_> ais523: anyway, C-INTERCAL bugreport: the configure script doesn't run on i386-win32-unknown-gnu
12:47:02 <elliott_> ais523: that is, it doesn't run in a native Windows version of bash, equipped with all the standard GNU tools
12:47:02 <ais523> can you give a more specific bug report?
12:47:08 <ais523> as in, what goes wrong when you try?
12:47:09 <elliott_> doesn't run = garbage errors from bash
12:47:14 <elliott_> I forget exactly, it was a while ago I tried
12:47:17 <ais523> what if you try converting newlines first?
12:47:21 <elliott_> I tried two ports, none worked
12:47:38 <elliott_> ais523: Note that the port versions of bash were 1.something and 2.something respectively
12:47:43 <elliott_> I sort of doubt configure supports bash 1
12:47:57 <ais523> I wouldn't actually be surprised if it did
12:48:03 <elliott_> ais523: but it's obviously a bug anyway, because it has a shell and gnu tools, so obviously it should be able to run the build system
12:48:05 <ais523> there are all the sections on writing portable sh, and working around bugs
12:48:08 <elliott_> (if I downloaded mingw to be a cc)
12:48:18 <ais523> although nowadays they tend to abandon support for really old stuff, which is annoying
12:48:29 <ais523> that defeats half the point of configure, which is to be stupidly backwards-compatible
12:48:38 <elliott_> ais523: all the bloat, none of the benefit!
12:49:14 <elliott_> ais523: you should write a configure program in strict, avoiding-anything-that-anyone-has-fucked-up-implementing-ever K&R C, then it's _guaranteed_ to be able to configure wherever it can compile
12:49:41 <ais523> then all it needs is a configure script to configure the compiler correctly for running it
12:49:50 <ais523> hmm, IIRC jettyplay has a configure script, because I'm insane
12:50:16 <elliott_> <ais523> then all it needs is a configure script to configure the compiler correctly for running it
12:50:23 <elliott_> you design the configure script so it works with just "cc configure.c" on any compiler
12:50:29 <elliott_> and use system() to do the rest, somehow
12:50:38 <ais523> on Windows, the compiler is called cl
12:50:44 <elliott_> ais523: substitute cc with the compiler name
12:50:50 <ais523> hmm: AC_PATH_PROG([JAVAC], [javac])
12:50:56 <elliott_> I mean that any user that can type ./configure should be able to just give it to the compiler and have it work :)
12:51:03 <ais523> actually in jettyplay source
12:51:28 <ais523> you'll be glad to hear I wrote the makefile.in by hand rather than using autoconf, though
12:51:45 <ais523> (it's not in the repo, btw; it's in a separate directory)
12:52:06 <ais523> # This fails on unusual names for /usr/lib that contain ', &, \ or %. That
12:52:07 <ais523> # shouldn't be a problem, but you never know...
12:52:18 <ais523> I'm trying to figure out if this is a major failing or something completely irrelevant
12:52:26 <elliott_> my name for /usr/lib is "Tordy Complat Infisiant tumbly Hork"
12:52:30 <elliott_> my name for /usr/lib is "Tordy Complat Infisiant tumbly Hork%"
12:52:50 <ais523> normally failing on weird punctuation in filenames is bad (see: clc-intercal and mandb), but it seems vaguely unlikely to find it in a localized name for /usr/lib
12:52:53 <elliott_> ais523: you see in @, you don't have to worry about escaping like that!
12:52:54 <ais523> especially as most people just hardcode /usr/lib
12:53:03 <elliott_> ais523: Lojban uses ', at least
12:53:32 <ais523> ' is the one it's very hard to fix
12:53:42 <ais523> due to there being no way to tell make(1) to shell-escape variables it substitutes
12:53:45 <elliott_> <elliott_> ais523: you see in @, you don't have to worry about escaping like that!
12:53:54 <ais523> I noticed, just didn't have a reaction
12:54:01 <elliott_> ais523: but it's TOTALLY RELEVANT >:D
12:54:49 <elliott_> ais523: because there's no shell, mostly
12:55:01 <ais523> then how do you run your makefiles?
12:55:14 <ais523> note that I was trying to substitute something into the replacement side of a sed s/// regexp
12:55:17 <elliott_> ais523: you don't; if you _did_ have a build system, it'd run code in @lang, which serves as the shell
12:55:39 <elliott_> ais523: but even just using Python as the shell in Unix doesn't compare, because @lang actions don't just take strings and return strings
12:55:40 <ais523> but then it doesn't run standard GNU configure files
12:55:49 <elliott_> I've fixed your bug at its source!
12:55:52 <ais523> also, seriously, people use Python as a shell?
12:55:52 <elliott_> and it turns out, the source is everything
12:55:58 <elliott_> ais523: no, but I was preempting a rebuttal
12:56:16 <ais523> I interpreted as being more like Powershell than sh
12:56:19 <ais523> only probably less insane
12:56:31 <elliott_> hmm, might want a beta oberon, this hasn't been updated since 1999...
12:56:32 <ais523> actually, what you've described sounds more or less like the entire rationale for Powershell
12:56:44 <elliott_> ais523: yep, except powershell makes a lousy programming language
12:56:48 <ais523> although you can ignore it as Microsoft almost certainly screwed up the implementaiton
12:56:51 <elliott_> (it also makes a lousy shell, but that's not inherent)
12:57:54 <ais523> indeed, languages can be good at one and bad at the other, or vice versa, or both or neither
12:58:05 <ais523> wow, that last sentence of mine was worryingly zzo38ish
12:58:15 <elliott_> ais523: A C compiler would probably look like - GCC compile(my-bytestring)
12:58:23 <elliott_> It has to be a bytestring (or a string, I suppose), because of cpp
12:58:39 <elliott_> If you had some already-preprocessed-and-now-a-C-code-object code, it'd look more like GCC compile(that) :P
12:59:02 <elliott_> ais523: I was actually thinking of what a "Unix-like" shell in @ would look like
12:59:31 <elliott_> would produce a box with "Native function" at the top of it, and some assembly code below, plus links to a bunch of inspectors
12:59:42 <elliott_> and "$ cc foo.c > foo" would introduce the alias "foo" in the current environment for that object
12:59:45 <elliott_> which could be called with ./foo
12:59:55 <elliott_> (foo.c is of course just an alias for another object, as @ has no filesystem)
13:00:24 <ais523> wow, if you do that lazily, you could have lazy debug info
13:00:48 <elliott_> ais523: although, all standard @lang objects already have debugging, by virtue of being tied to their source
13:01:16 <elliott_> ais523: (AFAICT prebuilt binaries would be completely useless in @ as the compiler would be as fast as machinely possible)
13:01:16 <ais523> I mean more extensive debug info could be generated on-demand
13:01:28 <elliott_> well, it sort of can, if the machine code is tied to the source
13:01:32 <elliott_> because you can always re-scan that area
13:02:00 <ais523> hmm, I was going to say "you could even add things like debug printf statements to a program and rerun it in the environment it started running in", but then realised that things were getting dangerously Feather
13:02:22 <elliott_> ais523: nope, that's still pretty solidly @
13:02:29 <elliott_> although, obviously the outside world wouldn't change
13:02:49 <elliott_> ais523: oh, and the debugger would be entirely source-based, and let you change expressions in the program on the fly :)
13:02:54 <elliott_> and have them recompile into the right place
13:03:09 <elliott_> so you could even add debug printfs to a running program just by adding them in the debugger
13:03:16 <elliott_> and then save the changes if you want to keep them
13:03:34 <ais523> hmm, why are there not enbuggers?
13:03:46 <ais523> as in, programs that help you figure out good places to put hard-to-find and subtle bugs in programs?
13:03:47 <elliott_> ais523: because the debugger works perfectly well for that job
13:03:58 <elliott_> oh, and of _course_, you can debug a running debugger.
13:04:08 <elliott_> just in case you've ever wanted to do something completely pointless.
13:04:37 <ais523> elliott_: some of the TAS people have been known to run debuggers around emulators that didn't have memory watch, to debug the program running inside the emulator by debugging the emulator itself
13:04:55 <ais523> which to me seems a lot more work than just changing the emulator to have the features you need
13:05:48 <elliott_> ais523: well, in @, you could have a really long-running debugging session, so long-running that you never want to exit it ever
13:05:52 <elliott_> but you want to do something the debugger can't do
13:05:56 <elliott_> so you open a debugger on the debugger
13:05:59 <elliott_> patch the feature in to the debugger
13:06:10 <elliott_> leaving the long-lived debugger with the new feature you need!
13:06:17 <elliott_> and then you could even save it to the standard debugger for future use
13:06:40 <elliott_> ais523: I hope to replace all development with successive applications of nested debugging by 2020
13:08:53 <elliott_> argh, oberon's mouse acceleration is far too high
13:09:55 <ais523> I thought it was a programming language, not an OS?
13:10:01 <ais523> do programming languages have mouse acceleration?
13:10:06 <ais523> I suppose their standard libraries might
13:10:19 <ais523> elliott_: you mean it's a programming language and also an OS, Smalltalk-style?
13:10:33 <ais523> (even then, I tend to mentally separate the two, and do not consider gst to be an abomination, but that's maybe just me)
13:11:03 <elliott_> ais523: I am referring to {Oberon (operating system)}, which is based on an implementation of {Oberon (programming language)}; *but* {Oberon (operating system)} is the only existing embodiment of the "Oberon system" that the {Oberon (programming language)} specifies and is designed to be used in
13:11:17 <elliott_> specifically, I'm referring to the {Native Oberon} flavour of {Oberon (operating system)}
13:11:32 <elliott_> but, really, there's little point distinguishing them
13:11:45 <elliott_> just because Unix pretends to be language-agnostic (it's not, see: C), doesn't mean everything does
13:12:04 <elliott_> (similarly, just because something isn't language-agnostic, doesn't mean it's not language-hostile (see Lisp Machines, which had C compilers))
13:12:09 <ais523> also, does {} introduce an FFI to Wikipedia-style disambig parens?
13:12:50 <elliott_> hmm, so right-click drag with insanely high mouse acceleration is the most difficult operation possible on a macbook
13:13:04 <ais523> are you using the touchpad or an external mouse?
13:13:14 <ais523> also, do you mean mouse acceleration, or mouse speed?
13:13:21 <ais523> very high levels of acceleration give you lots of precision on a touchpad
13:13:25 <elliott_> it's hard to tell when it's so fast
13:13:30 <elliott_> ais523: this is a 640x480 window :)
13:13:45 <ais523> well, very high mouse acceleration would mean that if you moved the touchpad slowly, the cursor would move very slowly indeed
13:13:49 <ais523> compared to moving it quickly
13:14:46 <elliott_> gah, better create a partition before trying to isntall oberon
13:14:53 <Sgeo> The wikipedia page reads like an advertisement
13:15:02 <elliott_> ais523: or, it could go insanely fast when i moved it slowly, and SUPER INSANELY FAST hen i went faster
13:18:18 <ais523> but then you couldn't tell if it was accelerated or not
13:18:56 <elliott_> ais523: what's the standard size of a cylinder these days? :-P
13:19:12 <ais523> oh, you mean a hard drive cylinder?
13:19:22 <ais523> I thought that question was along the same lines as "how long is a piece of string?"
13:19:46 <elliott_> no no let's pretend i meant it in the other sense
13:22:48 <elliott_> i would like to see a self-modifying paintfuck
13:22:51 <fizzie> All CHS addresses are utter lies nowadays anyway, so it's probably not a very relevant number any more.
13:22:55 <elliott_> as in, a paintfuck that interprets the graphical space as a program somehow
13:23:00 <elliott_> so that you set the space up and run it
13:23:07 <elliott_> fizzie: yes but fdisk wants me to set one
13:23:13 <elliott_> Number of cylinders (1-1048576):
13:23:16 <elliott_> to let me paaaartition this fake disk
13:23:34 <ais523> elliott_: it should OCR the graphical space and interpret it as a PF program
13:23:39 <ais523> the interpreter should, I mean
13:23:53 <elliott_> ais523: i didn't mean just for initial loading though :)
13:23:53 <ais523> it's the only way to stay within the spirit of PF
13:23:58 <elliott_> or does it reverse-OCR it every step?
13:24:11 <ais523> I mean, every step it OCRs the current playfield, and interprets it as the program
13:24:23 <ais523> the playfield's initialised with a reverse-OCR (i.e. printout) of the program you give it
13:25:20 <elliott_> because that sounds terrifying :)
13:26:06 <ais523> it surely isn't that bad compared to some of the things #esoteric comes up with?
13:26:30 <elliott_> ais523: well, no, but it's still perverse in a unique way of its own
13:26:56 <fizzie> Which sort of fdisk is this that it can't read the disk geometry from somewhere?
13:27:07 <ais523> fizzie: one working on an imaginary drive
13:27:18 <elliott_> fizzie: one working on a file that's a bunch of 0s
13:27:21 <ais523> that doesn't actually have any geometry until you define what it is
13:27:22 <elliott_> it's for a qemuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
13:27:39 <fizzie> Well. A "standard" fake-cylinder in pc-ishnowadays is 63*255 sectors (255 fake-heads and 63 sectors per fake-track; about 8 megabytes).
13:27:54 <fizzie> s/ishnow/ish systems is now/
13:28:17 <elliott_> So 130-or-so cylinders in this.
13:28:59 <fizzie> That's how many bytes you'd get.
13:29:07 <fizzie> (With the largest possible cylinders.)
13:31:22 <ais523> gah, fizzie's nick length is almost exactly the right length (out by one pixel) to make the > to call lambdabot line up with the > to delimit elliott_'s nick
13:31:35 <ais523> and it made me confused as to why lambdabot responded to one but not the other
13:32:00 <ais523> oh, the one pixel difference doesn't bother me, it's just that it's such a small difference I missed it was there
13:36:49 <ais523> hmm, I was reading a page on c2
13:36:55 <ais523> and noticed it mentioned the LGPL
13:37:06 <ais523> and thought "hmm, that's a bit modern for c2 to be referencing, isn't it?"
13:37:18 <ais523> now I'm trying to work out why I had such an illogical thought
13:38:20 <Sgeo> ais523, since much of c2 hasn't been touched in a decade? *exaggeration*
13:38:41 <ais523> Sgeo: for some reason I assume it captures computer knowledge from Before Time Began, or something like that
13:38:43 <elliott_> this bitz stuff is out of control
13:39:43 <olsner> I remember a time when there were occasional changes being done on C2 wiki
13:41:02 <Sgeo> Well, time to get to school
13:47:45 <ais523> elliott_: can you think of any reason why I'd get 504 errors on the vast majority (but not all) of attempts to submit HTTP POST requests, from one laptop but on more than one Internet connection, and how repeatedly trying until it works makes it work eventually?
13:47:55 <ais523> the set of symptoms seems to make no sense to me
13:48:10 <elliott_> ais523: it's making demon fly out of your nose, washing the windows api, and the ISS servers are getting all soapy
13:48:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
13:48:20 <elliott_> and servers tend to perform worse when soapy
13:48:35 <elliott_> (even if they're running on apache, they tend to get bits of soap from them as the iss content disseminates throughout the internet)
13:48:37 <ais523> indeed, SOAP is famously bad
13:50:14 <ais523> anyone else have ideas that aren't DS9K-related?
13:51:00 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:56:19 -!- sftp has joined.
13:56:35 <Ilari> Hmm... I think I should actually design an esolang based on fractal circuits.
13:58:21 <elliott_> Ilari: How many billions of unpublished esolangs do you have?
14:00:08 <Ilari> 2 esolangs that are "unpublished". I like esolangs that aren't just minor variations of Brainfuck.
14:00:26 <elliott_> You just seem to talk about random esolangs you've made that nobody seems to have ever heard of a lot :-P
14:01:10 <ais523> Ilari: strangely, we have a section on that in the paper we're writing right now
14:01:13 <Ilari> I have designed 3 so far (this fractal-circuit based esolang isn't in that).
14:01:13 <ais523> fractal circuits, that is
14:01:32 <elliott_> fractal circuits is something that sounds nice but is probably useless :D
14:01:42 <ais523> it's the usual way to implement a sort in hardware
14:02:05 <ais523> why is that so worthy of damnation?
14:02:11 <Ilari> As far as I know, all three are turing complete. And this fourth would be too.
14:02:17 <elliott_> ais523: my prediction was wrong!
14:02:27 <elliott_> also, "damn" is an incredibly mild utterance no matter what you say :)
14:02:30 <ais523> it's hard to not be TC if a language is at all interesting
14:02:52 <elliott_> I still don't know whether Wapr is turing complete or not.
14:03:02 <elliott_> sorry, *jumping to -1 is exciting
14:03:03 <ais523> I still don't know whether Dupdog is turing complete or not
14:03:07 <Vorpal> <elliott> this log has so much circular logic it hurts <-- haha
14:03:17 <ais523> elliott_: was that proved?
14:03:19 <elliott_> Vorpal: It hurts because it has so much circular logic.
14:03:26 <ais523> it's rare to have a language that's non-TC, but not trivially non-TC
14:03:33 <ais523> as ()^: Underload demonstrated
14:03:34 <elliott_> ais523: hmm, not on the wikipedia page, but IIRC oerjan pretty much slam-dunked it once
14:03:53 <ais523> Xigxag's another lang with similar properties
14:03:55 <elliott_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Jumping_to_-1_is_exciting Quick! Is my badly-specified old esolang TC???
14:03:57 <Vorpal> <elliott> (the "TABS=8 AND EVERYONE WHO THINKS TABS!=8 EVER IS WRONG" thing; not that he ever gives a decent argument for it, but this was basically like 3 hours of circular argumentation from him in the logs) <-- I think his argument boiled down to it being traditional
14:04:14 <elliott_> those things after the command chars
14:04:15 <ais523> wait, was someone ohter than me arguing that?
14:04:31 <elliott_> ais523: no, I just read the log where you spent a few hours dedicated to arguing it :D
14:04:39 <elliott_> nothing personal, it just hurt me inside
14:04:46 <Vorpal> <elliott> hey Vorpal, does that ick on mac classic thing actually work :) <-- it works but the MPW C compiler fails on some generated programs. IIRC it was due to bugs in the MPW C compiler
14:04:47 -!- cheater00 has joined.
14:04:49 <elliott_> but a true logreader never abandons his log.
14:05:11 <Vorpal> <elliott_> Vorpal: where did you download mpw from anyway <-- apple ftp. As a set of 14 or so segmented .img (no not .dmg, that is OS X only)
14:05:19 <elliott_> Vorpal: yeah, that ftp is down now.
14:05:25 <elliott_> also, MrC is that buggy? aargh
14:05:34 <elliott_> that means I'll have to try and get gcc 2 compiled...
14:05:43 <elliott_> which will be so unfun it's hard to even articulate
14:06:21 <Vorpal> elliott_, I forgot what it failed on
14:06:39 <Vorpal> <elliott_> Vorpal: It hurts because it has so much circular logic. <-- :)
14:06:45 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
14:06:57 <Vorpal> elliott_, anyway, I did not port it for 68k
14:07:07 <Vorpal> elliott_, oh and sheepshaver is too buggy to compile one of the object files
14:07:13 <elliott_> isn't the toolchain semi-agnostic
14:07:29 <Vorpal> elliott_, iirc the compiler switches have rather different names
14:07:40 <Vorpal> anyway ick generates command lines for things
14:07:54 <elliott_> well, whatever, I have to get gcc working SOMETIME!
14:07:58 <Vorpal> elliott_, I needed to compile that one object file on my old ibook, then copy it across.
14:08:11 <Vorpal> sheepshaver crashed on it
14:08:13 <elliott_> Vorpal: what i can't figure out how to do is how to provide an fopen() with filename translation.
14:08:24 <elliott_> without dlopen and friends this sounds impossible
14:08:26 <Vorpal> elliott_, I believe I did filename translation in ick
14:08:34 <elliott_> Vorpal: but not at fopen() level
14:08:40 <elliott_> think cygwin, i have to give this to other programs instead of libc
14:08:53 <Vorpal> elliott_, anyway iirc ick had something like #define PATH_SEP '/'
14:09:11 <Vorpal> elliott_, I had to rewrite some function to not add non-required path separators
14:09:39 <Vorpal> elliott_, foo//bar is just verbose. but foo::bar is plain wrong
14:10:00 <elliott_> Vorpal: amusingly, since translation must handle <user inputted mac path><//../ from program>, you can mix and match!
14:10:22 <Vorpal> elliott_, anyway where do you plan to run MrC?
14:10:36 <ais523> elliott_: the same as x:\ from WIndows, only backwards
14:10:47 <elliott_> I explicitly want to make sure it works on System Software 6
14:10:48 <Vorpal> elliott_, oh so SC then? not MrC?
14:10:52 <ais523> so great you used a symmetrical letter there, or the joke wouldn't have worked!
14:10:53 <Vorpal> SC is the 68k compiler iirc
14:10:54 <elliott_> oh, is there another compiler?
14:11:02 <elliott_> Vorpal: really, that's just a stopgap measure until I get gcc bootstrapped
14:11:02 <Vorpal> elliott_, yes MrC is PPC, SC is 68k
14:11:10 <elliott_> NetBSD can run on them I think
14:11:14 <elliott_> so gcc is feasible, fsvo feasible
14:11:30 <Vorpal> elliott_, didn't apple use to cross compile Mac OS from some unix system or such?
14:11:45 <elliott_> If I were sane I'd just use A/UX.
14:11:56 <Vorpal> elliott_, isn't A/UX apple's?
14:12:17 <elliott_> Vorpal: Anyway, if this actually gets working I'm sure I can buy a Macintosh Plus just to see it run :P
14:12:25 <elliott_> Memory1 MB, expandable to 4 MB (150 ns 30-pin SIMM)
14:12:31 -!- Guest1055 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
14:12:36 <Vorpal> elliott_, anyway there was this site with "abandonware" for classic mac
14:12:39 <Vorpal> trying to remember the name
14:12:42 <elliott_> there's several aren't there :D
14:12:42 <fizzie> GNU ld has a "--wrap" thing for that sort of library-wrapping, which lets you override library functions in such a way that the overriding code can call the original. (I can't be bothered to read all the context to see if that's relevant.)
14:13:00 <Vorpal> elliott_, ah http://www.macintoshgarden.org/
14:13:13 <Vorpal> elliott_, that site has various mpw versions iirc
14:13:17 <fizzie> Yes, but you keep talking about GCC too.
14:13:18 <Vorpal> elliott_, and sdks too
14:13:33 <Vorpal> elliott_, are you aware of how the MPW shell works?
14:13:52 <elliott_> Vorpal: Maybe I can avoid MPW entirely by CROSS-COMPILING.
14:13:57 <elliott_> Except I doubt cross-compiling would work at all.
14:14:00 <Vorpal> elliott_, and why ick can't call the compiler (I made it an mpw tool)
14:14:06 <Vorpal> (because that solved stdio issues)
14:14:14 <elliott_> Vorpal: Indeed; thankfully, whateverit'scalled solves that!
14:14:22 <elliott_> Vorpal: Who needs the MPW shell when you have Real Authentic Make?
14:14:24 <ais523> whateverit'scalled is a great name
14:14:34 <ais523> mostly because of the apostrophe
14:14:36 <Vorpal> elliott_, what are you trying to compile for it?
14:14:41 <Ilari> Of course, to use --wrap, one must relink the program.
14:14:53 <ais523> elliott_: I think you may need to implement stdin/out/err by hand
14:14:57 <Vorpal> elliott_, what is your *goal* here
14:14:59 <elliott_> ais523: My current naming scheme has gone something like Unix for Mac -> Uforma -> Euphorma, but I'm not sure where to go from there
14:15:13 <ais523> you could change the m to an i and get a real word
14:15:19 <ais523> which may or may not be used atm
14:15:21 <Vorpal> elliott_, right. You need to write something like a shell for it
14:15:23 <elliott_> well, what's more euphoric than Unix!
14:15:32 <elliott_> Vorpal: Just like Cygwin does.
14:15:36 <Vorpal> elliott_, what do you run bash in
14:15:53 <Vorpal> elliott_, you will need to write a terminal emulator
14:15:53 <elliott_> Vorpal: I want to be able to double click "Start Euphorma" on my System Software 6 desktop, have it start up a vt100 emulator program, and point it at a pty, on which it starts bash.
14:16:05 <elliott_> Vorpal: I could maybe even reuse an existing one for the time being *shrug* i.e. telnet client
14:16:26 <elliott_> Vorpal: But that's a trivial problem compared to all the huge ones :P
14:16:29 <elliott_> Vorpal: For instance: cooperative multitasking.
14:16:47 <elliott_> Vorpal: Current plan is just "whenever we get control from the program, YIELD, and if it does for (;;); that's not our problem".
14:17:00 <elliott_> But if you could set up some kind of timer interrupt and then cause it to yield or something, that would be an option too.
14:17:15 <elliott_> Of course in old System Software versions all Unix software will stop when you tab away.
14:17:40 <elliott_> Vorpal: In a way, it'll be a hosted microkernel plus a POSIX libc.
14:17:43 -!- FireFly has joined.
14:17:52 <elliott_> Hosted microkernel to handle taskswitching, POSIX libc to wrap the existing libc and add Unix functions.
14:18:00 <Vorpal> elliott_, how long before you give this project up do you think?
14:18:07 <elliott_> Not long! But it's fun to think about now.
14:18:16 <elliott_> I suppose I should learn the Macintosh Toolbox.
14:18:25 -!- Guest1055 has joined.
14:18:33 <Vorpal> elliott_, I have no idea about that. I know it exists... That is about all
14:18:39 <Vorpal> elliott_, wasn't it 68k only?
14:18:43 <Vorpal> as in PPC used something else
14:19:14 <Vorpal> elliott_, in the version of MPW I have, Pascal seems to be treated like a second class citizen.
14:19:24 <elliott_> Vorpal: Yah, but the APIs are all Pascal.
14:19:30 <elliott_> That's why you can say "\pxyz" in MPW to get a Pascal string.
14:19:44 <Vorpal> elliott_, I'm fairly sure you need an older one to make it run on 68k. As in last MPW won't
14:20:41 <Vorpal> elliott_, also did 68k have MMUs?
14:20:45 <elliott_> Vorpal: Of course, MPW 3 was the last I think.
14:20:52 <elliott_> But like I said, I can't rely on MPW for too long :P
14:20:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: They used to cross-develop Mac OS stuff from Lisa.
14:21:09 <ais523> elliott_: how are you planning to implement alarm()?
14:21:24 <ais523> if you can't even do non-coop multitasking, then that should be near-impossible
14:21:28 <elliott_> ais523: Does the 68k have timer interrupts? :p
14:21:40 <elliott_> It must do, since Mac OS 9 did mostly preemptive multithreading.
14:21:44 <ais523> I don't know, nor whether you can hook them without doing inline asm or whatever
14:22:06 <ais523> hmm, I think my new esolang I'm mulling over atm will have both pre-emptive and cooperative multithreading, because
14:22:40 <Vorpal> <elliott_> It must do, since Mac OS 9 did mostly preemptive multithreading. <-- wasn't OS 8.something the last to run on 68k
14:22:41 <fizzie> Processors in general tend to have just "interrupts", it's up to the surrounding hardware to cause them using timers.
14:23:01 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
14:23:16 <Vorpal> elliott_, actually OS 9 did preemptive but with one task doing most of the job. That task internally doing cooperative
14:23:17 <elliott_> maybe i could get the fpu to divide by zero at JUST the right moment
14:23:28 <elliott_> i thought it was like the other way around
14:23:35 <elliott_> cooperative at the top layer, and main task doing preempting
14:23:35 <Vorpal> elliott_, you had to call this main task for stuff like file system and what not even
14:23:51 <Vorpal> elliott_, so in practise it wasn't preemptive in any useful sense
14:23:52 <elliott_> but yeah, i need to run on 68k.
14:23:55 <elliott_> it's just not impressive if I can't!
14:24:26 <Vorpal> <elliott_> cooperative at the top layer, and main task doing preempting <-- except the top layer being thicker than the main layer
14:24:47 -!- augur has joined.
14:25:04 <elliott_> <elliott_> maybe i could get the fpu to divide by zero at JUST the right moment
14:25:06 <ais523> `addquote <elliott_> maybe i could get the fpu to divide by zero at JUST the right moment
14:25:15 <ais523> elliott_: I was addquoting it even before you requoted it yourself
14:25:15 <Vorpal> elliott_, as far as I remember about the only useful API for "native preemptive tasks" (called "blue tasks" iirc!) that didn't call the cooperative code was memory allocation
14:25:40 <ais523> I think insightful's better than funny for qdbs
14:25:41 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure a 68k mac would have timer interrupts, but hooking into them would most likely be rather undocumented and kludgy.
14:25:58 <elliott_> fizzie: this whole idea is pretty much undocumented and kludgy.
14:26:16 <elliott_> main priority is getting MPW 3 anyway :P
14:26:23 <Vorpal> wait, wouldn't the CPU have internal timers?
14:26:46 <elliott_> i imagine 68k's inability to support good preemptive multitasking drove the switch away partly.
14:26:55 <Vorpal> I just realised I never done really low level coding for anything except SOCs.
14:26:57 <elliott_> thankfully, _I_ am not constrained by requirements of goodness
14:27:12 <Vorpal> elliott_, also the memory limit I bet
14:27:14 <elliott_> Vorpal: write a boot sector, it's easy and you can say you've done it :P
14:27:25 <elliott_> but 8 megs is plenty, and that's just 24-bit system 6 limit!
14:27:45 <Vorpal> elliott_, fun thing about Mac OS. The OS could move memory around under you
14:27:46 <fizzie> 68k can run Linux just fine (for some values of "fine", anyway...), so there's nothing unfixably wrong in the hardware.
14:27:49 <elliott_> http://www.macintoshgarden.org/apps/macintosh-common-lisp-20 :D MCL
14:27:56 <elliott_> fizzie: Right, and also NetBSD.
14:27:59 <Vorpal> elliott_, you had these kind of handles, and you needed to go through them
14:28:04 <fizzie> Of *course* it runs NetBSD.
14:28:14 <elliott_> fizzie: And thankfully old Mac OS pretty much let you take over everything, so...
14:28:21 <lifthrasiir> http://craftbook.sk89q.com/wiki/Perlstone seems to qualify as a "practical" esolang
14:28:25 <Vorpal> elliott_, since there was not MMU it couldn't use virtual memory to patch up address space, so it had to move stuff around under you
14:28:34 <Vorpal> elliott_, yes kind of gc yes
14:28:42 <elliott_> lifthrasiir: lol, "The language was designed and the interpreter written by Lymia."
14:28:45 <Vorpal> elliott_, but more kind of ghetto virtual memory :P
14:28:53 <lifthrasiir> (and yeah, I just started to play Minecraft very recently)
14:29:18 <elliott_> oh no, the koreans have found another game ending in "craft"
14:29:22 <lifthrasiir> so the esoteric nature is intentional, right? :p
14:29:25 <elliott_> now nothing can stop a global economic meltdown :(
14:29:36 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/68k-virtual-memory ← also one of the best solutions ever.
14:29:45 <lifthrasiir> elliott_: no, MC was popular since 2010 in Korea :p
14:29:46 <ais523> I thought Korean MMO crazes mostly stayed confined to (South) Korea
14:29:49 <elliott_> Vorpal: Dem Koreans are known for their... fondness of Starcraft :P
14:29:57 <elliott_> ais523: lifthrasiir is Korean, unless I'm seriously mistaken
14:30:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, did macs use the original 68000 or?
14:30:12 <ais523> I mean, it's not the whole world that's doomed, just South Korea
14:30:33 <ais523> I've heard that people voluntarily install rootkits over there to "prove" they aren't cheating in online games...
14:30:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: Early models, yes.
14:30:58 <ais523> which I suppose is actually a sensible idea if you trust the game manufacturer
14:31:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, I heard that story you linked before, but what I never understood why they went to that length to solve it. Why not just use a different CPU?
14:31:24 <lifthrasiir> ais523: afaik it is rather involuntarily, but that sounds plausible
14:31:25 <fizzie> Mac II seems to be 68020-based already.
14:31:45 <ais523> lifthrasiir: well, when the alternative is not running the game
14:31:57 <lifthrasiir> as an account forgery is quite a problem nowadays
14:32:13 <elliott_> <ais523> I mean, it's not the whole world that's doomed, just South Korea
14:32:33 <Vorpal> elliott_, true but I remember having to reboot mac os due to buggy programs many times
14:32:41 <elliott_> Vorpal: yeah but gnu coders are perfect.
14:33:07 <Vorpal> elliott_, anyway, I had MacBugs (or whatever the spelling was... MacsBug?)
14:33:30 <Vorpal> elliott_, and I seen it say "Unable to Find System Heap. Heap list corrupted" or some such
14:33:36 <Vorpal> elliott_, that is why you want an MMU :P
14:34:11 <Vorpal> elliott_, remember the FS wasn't journaling either :P
14:34:27 <Vorpal> elliott_, oh I could debug. I just couldn't kill the app. Had to reboot.
14:35:11 <elliott_> never mind, euphorma cancelled, perfect os discovered
14:35:16 <Vorpal> elliott_, well that was OS 9, so not quite.
14:35:47 <elliott_> Temporarily unavailable due to high bandwidth costs
14:35:57 <Vorpal> elliott_, well anyway System 7 didn't boot instantly on hardware available when System 7 was new
14:36:12 <Vorpal> elliott_, possibly. Don't remember that.
14:36:21 <Vorpal> elliott_, what OS did Classic run?
14:36:28 <Vorpal> as in Macintosh Classic
14:37:05 <Vorpal> elliott_, when I was small my dad had one of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_Classic
14:37:20 <elliott_> The Classic used the System 6.0.7 operating system with support for all versions up to System 7.5.5. A hidden Hierarchical File System (HFS) disk volume contained in the read-only memory (ROM) included System 6.0.3.[17] The Mac Classic could be booted into System 6.0.3 by holding down the Command + Option + X + O keys during boot.[17]
14:38:07 <Vorpal> elliott_, why not use the OS included originally then (6.0.7)
14:38:10 <ais523> recovery was my guess when I saw that
14:38:19 <elliott_> Vorpal: god knows; not available when that part was being designed?
14:38:20 <ais523> and presumably because 6.0.3 was known not-fatally-buggy, 6.0.7 wasn't
14:39:00 <elliott_> "I'm learning Objective-C and my friend have a real Macintosh IIci, that uses a Mac System 7(specifically 7.5.5 with a 68k processor) and I've installed Metrowerks C/C++ IDE(I think it's the version 1, but I don't know), but i didn't tested it, then i want to know one thing: It's possible to develop in Objective-C using NSObjects/Objects and AppKit or something like this on it? Thanks.
14:39:38 <elliott_> ais523: hmm, you've used compilers that support 16-bit archs, right?
14:39:38 <Vorpal> elliott_, also Apple likes to reuse product names
14:39:55 <Vorpal> "The Classic featured several improvements over the Macintosh Plus, which it replaced as Apple's low-end Mac computer: it was up to 25 percent faster than the Plus and included an Apple SuperDrive 3.5" floppy disk drive as standard.[16] The SuperDrive could read and write to Macintosh, MS-DOS, OS/2, and ProDOS disks."
14:40:01 <ais523> despite having used them, I didn't really understand how they worked
14:40:14 <Vorpal> elliott_, SuperDrive. Wasn't that Apple's DVD-RAM drive during the G3/G4 era?
14:40:28 <ais523> it was more on the "run the command and hope" level, like I'm currently at with Marst
14:40:48 <Vorpal> elliott_, they reused the trademark is what I'm saying
14:41:34 <Vorpal> elliott_, lack of in this case?
14:41:49 <Vorpal> elliott_, wait you mean *that* key repeat?
14:41:50 <elliott_> "Installing binutils and GCC as cross-compiler for the Motorolla 68000"
14:41:55 <Vorpal> people use it to type?
14:42:08 <elliott_> i just sortal inger on the e key
14:42:10 <Vorpal> oh you are tired. Okay
14:42:22 <elliott_> so wait since when does m68k be supported by...
14:42:33 <ais523> elliott_: I didn't realise it was possible to be so tired that you couldn't press a given key twice in a row
14:42:39 <ais523> also, I recommend sleeping, in such cases
14:42:47 <elliott_> ais523: at 2 pm? that would be unwise
14:42:56 <elliott_> also, my brain's still awake, mostly, it's just everything else that's being stupid
14:43:02 <elliott_> (note: this is almost always true)
14:43:06 <fizzie> GCC is what Linux/m68k runs on.
14:43:18 <Vorpal> elliott_, you need sleep then
14:43:20 <elliott_> fizzie: Yeeees, but I'm trying to produce Mack-in-tosh boonaries here.
14:43:26 <ais523> elliott_: I tend to be sufficiently bad at sleeping at will, that when I do sleep, it's often at arbitrary times of day
14:43:28 <Vorpal> <fizzie> GCC is what Linux/m68k runs on. <-- wait what
14:43:33 <elliott_> I am not sure what the executable format is. :p
14:43:35 <Vorpal> Linux/m68k runs on GCC?
14:43:44 <Vorpal> since when was GCC an OS or such
14:43:46 <fizzie> elliott_: That's just a binutils issue.
14:44:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, "is compiled with"?
14:44:14 <ais523> hmm, is gcc turing-complete?
14:44:21 <ais523> as in, the compiler itself, rather than the executables it produces
14:44:30 <ais523> (adjust for infinite memory)
14:44:40 <ais523> oh, obviously, C++ templates
14:44:43 <elliott_> anyone know what format 68k binaries are? :P
14:44:44 <ais523> what about just the C part?
14:44:45 <Vorpal> ais523, then we first need to define what it executes. Command line options?
14:44:46 <fizzie> The m68k is also what you might call "moderately 32-bit"; the address bus is just 24 bits (at least in 680N0 with small N).
14:44:50 <Guest1055> I got a captcha with "pi-calculus"
14:44:53 <elliott_> Guest1055: hello slereheareareareareareah
14:45:00 <elliott_> reearearafreaeereearreeearaerarareera
14:45:02 -!- Guest1055 has changed nick to Slereah.
14:45:15 <ais523> Slereah: did you type it?
14:45:24 <Slereah> I just switched to another one
14:45:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, by that token x86-64 is "moderately 64-bit". 48 bits isn't it?
14:45:36 <fizzie> Slereah: http://zem.fi/~fis/faircaptcha.png
14:45:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, and physical bus tends to be between 36 and 42 or so
14:45:51 <Vorpal> (probably more for server CPUs)
14:46:04 <elliott_> fizzie: it is inglip's commad.
14:46:06 <Slereah> That's the problem of using captchas as OCRs
14:46:33 <elliott_> fizzie: well system 7 had more than 24-bit
14:46:50 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Slereah: http://zem.fi/~fis/faircaptcha.png <-- did you enter the TeX code?
14:47:43 <Slereah> Is cyrilic even in basic latex?
14:47:50 <elliott_> what executable format did 68k macintosh system software use
14:48:02 <elliott_> i think the answer is obvious, and it is yes
14:48:10 <fizzie> elliott_: Seems that 68020 and later ones had a full 32-bit address bus. (Discounting the el-cheapo model 68EC020.)
14:48:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: It was a comment form and I didn't have anything to say, so no.
14:48:58 <elliott_> "Oops"; accidentally typed #minecraft instead.
14:48:59 <fizzie> They had those 68k/ppc "fat binaries" even back then, like they have ppc/x86 now.
14:49:12 <elliott_> fizzie: "Now"; not really any more :P
14:50:15 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott.
14:50:17 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
14:50:17 -!- elliott has joined.
14:52:01 <elliott> ha ha i have bamboozled them iwth the complexiti of my questionssodifj
14:52:17 <fizzie> The old executable format seems to be called PEF, and according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferred_Executable_Format it's co-used by BeOS on PPC.
14:52:35 <fizzie> Well, at least the "fat binary" m68k/ppc one.
14:52:39 <Vorpal> <elliott_> what executable format did 68k macintosh system software use <-- what one did it use?
14:52:47 <fizzie> Might well be that thin binaries used something completely different.
14:52:48 <elliott> <elliott> So... anybody happen to know what executable format 68k Mac OS used?
14:52:48 <elliott> <mikeash> I don't recall what its name was, but it involved pieces of code stored as individual resources in the app's resource fork
14:52:48 <elliott> <elliott> Well, that sounds pleasant. I was hoping it'd be something I could coerce binutils into generating with only mild pain. Naive of me.
14:52:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Something terrifying.
14:53:01 <Vorpal> oh right PEF. I think I saw that somewhere.
14:53:06 <Vorpal> elliott, yes the CODE resource I think
14:53:33 <Vorpal> elliott, hey there was a "plugin" to resedit that added a disassembler for CODE resources
14:53:48 <elliott> Yeah, now tell me how to make them from outside Macq :P
14:53:59 <Vorpal> elliott, you need to handle resource fork
14:54:21 <Vorpal> elliott, I suggest generating a MacBinary or .hqx file as compiler output, then unpacking that on a mac
14:54:43 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway even PPC apps relied quite a bit on the resource fork to work
14:54:55 <Vorpal> though the actual code was IIRC in the data fork then
14:55:42 <elliott> technically i don't even wanna generate apps i think
14:55:46 <elliott> because i don't want them to spawn gui crap
14:55:47 <Vorpal> elliott, the resedit disasemmbler was quite nice. It could follow jumps when you clicked on jump or call instructions
14:55:54 <Vorpal> and also backtrack any jumps to a specific line
14:56:03 <elliott> <mikeash> it was a fun setup, code would be split into many resources and this was used as a primitive form of swap
14:56:23 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you need one app that you run to start this thingy
14:56:44 <elliott> Vorpal: of course. i was thinking that one would be the EuphormaKernel
14:56:51 <elliott> and the other would just be EuphormaTerm
14:56:56 <elliott> and "Start Euphorma" would just open both
14:57:16 <elliott> except the terminal would have to pass control to the kernel.
14:57:28 <fizzie> Here, have some file format documentation (disclaimer: it might only have the m68k XCOFF object file format docs): http://mirrors.vanadac.com/ftp.apple.com/developer/Tool_Chest/Core_Mac_OS_Tools/MPW_etc./Documentation/MPW_Reference/File_Formats.sit.hqx
14:57:29 <elliott> Vorpal: err, because all the terminal does is a pty thing?
14:57:34 <elliott> i suppose i could make the unix thing a library
14:57:37 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and remember you can only start one instance of an app
14:57:38 <elliott> and compile it into the terminal
14:57:47 <Vorpal> so yeah you need to do the programs inside differently
14:57:50 <elliott> fizzie: that XCOFF thing, can i use it without worrying about all these forks?
14:58:20 <fizzie> I would think the object files are rather forkless, but not really sure.
14:58:22 <Vorpal> elliott, you *need* resource fork for the kernel/terminal bit though. Or at least for some type of launcher
14:58:33 <elliott> fizzie: So the only problem there is STARTING them :)
14:58:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, also you can't run an object file
14:58:44 <elliott> I need _some_ kind of linkage
14:58:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: The only "application" could be a MPW-built thing that just jumps into otherwise-generated code.
14:59:07 <elliott> fizzie: This is getting EXTRAORDINARILY like a kernel :P
14:59:09 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway even mpw tools won't work without their resource fork
14:59:14 <elliott> "So yeah, you open object file sand jump to them and ..."
14:59:18 <Vorpal> which is why the ick mac port was such a pita
14:59:24 <Vorpal> elliott, you know the .img format?
14:59:39 <Vorpal> elliott, they have resource forks that are vital for the image to be mountable
14:59:43 <Vorpal> so you need to .bin them
14:59:56 <Vorpal> still .img.bin is fairly reliable
14:59:59 <Vorpal> better than .sit anyway
15:00:24 <elliott> Vorpal: btw mac os 8 in basilisk ii = so crashy
15:00:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I can imagine. OS 7 is crashy too
15:00:37 <elliott> i just want a stable emulator that lets me have a big resolution :(
15:00:40 <elliott> Vorpal: it was emulator bugs
15:01:26 <fizzie> There's even some XCOFF support in binutils. (It was used in AIX by IBM too.)
15:01:35 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I decided to port ick (instead of something else) for a good reason
15:01:39 <elliott> fizzie: So I should compile a gcc for XCOFF, yah?
15:01:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I already knew ick was portable to hell and back
15:02:00 <Vorpal> thus figuring it wouldn't be too much work (still was quite a bit)
15:02:03 <elliott> I have a feeling I should jump right into gcc 2 so I know what horrors await me in the future.
15:02:19 <elliott> fizzie: Alsoalso, that vandac thing isn't loading now.
15:02:40 <Vorpal> what was the PPC executable format called now again
15:02:48 <fizzie> Well, it might be borderline possible, anyway; I wouldn't expect it to *work*. And I would be rather surprised if MPW would bother linking with gcc-generated xcoff objects.
15:03:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:03:20 <elliott> fizzie: AFAICT MPW will be the hacky-libc and the kernel, and gcc will be all the apps.
15:03:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, wasn't that for 68k?
15:03:28 <elliott> Hey, gcc 1.21 is available.
15:03:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, PPC used a different one that 68k I know
15:03:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, it's mostly a PPC format, though it also does m68k/PPC fat binaries.
15:03:41 <elliott> ftp://ftp.mirrorservice.org/sites/sourceware.org/pub/gcc/old-releases/gcc-1/gcc-1.21.tar.bz2
15:03:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes fat binaries is yet another thing
15:04:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, but I'm 99% sure that PPC and 68k used different binary formats for "applications"
15:04:15 <Vorpal> as in they had different names
15:04:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, PEF is what OS X still runs on PPC Macs, "However, PEF is still supported on PowerPC-based Macintoshes and is used by some Carbon applications ported from earlier Mac OS versions", so the older x86-only format probably is something else.
15:04:58 <fizzie> I don't quite know what.
15:05:16 <elliott> has a configure and everything
15:05:41 <fizzie> Bah, and I don't even have elliott's no-sleep excuse here.
15:05:46 <elliott> --build=BUILD configure for building on BUILD [BUILD=HOST]
15:05:46 <elliott> --host=HOST configure for HOST [determined via config.guess]
15:06:08 <elliott> Configuring for a x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu host.
15:06:08 <elliott> Invalid configuration `x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu': machine `x86_64-unknown' not recognized
15:06:08 <elliott> Invalid configuration `x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu': machine `x86_64-unknown' not recognized
15:06:08 <elliott> Unrecognized host system name x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu.
15:06:20 <elliott> but i doubt recent 4 versions support m68k-xcoff :)
15:06:27 <fizzie> Amiga's m68k executable format was "Hunk", and of course OS-X uses "Mach-O"... is it just me, or are all these formats pretty masculine? (Well, discounting ELF...)
15:07:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about COFF? PE?
15:08:16 <fizzie> elliott: The binary format support probably depends more on binutils/libbfd-or-what-was-it-called; might be possible to mix-n-match versions.
15:08:32 <elliott> fizzie: gcc 2 gave up when it saw that I was this strange "x86_64" beast.
15:08:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, *up to a point*
15:08:35 <Gregor> But ELF is the best format :P
15:08:37 <elliott> I think gcc 3 will do just fine. :p
15:08:47 <elliott> But I draw the line at 4, no way am I going to use 4.
15:08:55 <elliott> That's waaaaaaaay too detached from anything I could ever run on the actual machine ever :P
15:09:00 <Gregor> elliott: At some point there were ports of GCC2 to x86_64, they're just wildly nonstandard.
15:09:08 <Vorpal> ELF is fairly sane for a *nix like system.
15:09:21 <elliott> Gregor: It's kinda irrelevant because this is just a bootstrapping anyway :P
15:09:27 <Vorpal> too much overhead for old limited machines though
15:09:32 <elliott> Gregor: A really complicated bootstrapping involving multiple compilers and writing a userspace Unix kernel.
15:09:47 <Vorpal> Gregor, he is going to run on a MMU-less 68k system. ELF is just wasted there
15:09:50 <elliott> Gregor: Unless you think Microcosm could be made to work on a 68k Macintosh ...
15:10:05 <elliott> But yeah, ELF would be a tremendous waste of time here :P
15:10:19 <elliott> Heck, COM++ (like .COM, but with moar space!) would do fine X-D
15:11:25 <elliott> hmm, --target=m68k-xcoff is what I want, right?
15:11:30 <elliott> crosscompiling lingo confuses me
15:11:33 <cheater00> you know that COFF and PE are mutually exclusive?
15:11:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I would suggest a custom format unless that is too much work. Something like a header with a magic byte and some offsets then just two sections following: code, data. Header should contain a .bss style segment size as well (but that won't be in binary of course)
15:11:52 <cheater00> there's a physiological mechanism in our bodies that disables us from coughing/sneezing, and at the same time peeing.
15:11:57 -!- Tritonio has joined.
15:12:14 <elliott> Vorpal: ...I would still like it if Unix programs could theoretically call the Toolbox, though :P
15:12:17 <Vorpal> elliott, since you don't have MMU you want relocatable code btw. Otherwise running two copies of the same program would be painful
15:12:20 <elliott> I want something closer to Cygwin, not coLinux.
15:12:38 <Vorpal> elliott, and uh, self modifying code would be a pain
15:12:46 <elliott> Here's my relocatable code format.
15:12:50 <elliott> At the start, there's a list of memory locations.
15:13:05 <elliott> Whenever you load the file, you increment the values in all those memory locations of the program image by the base you loaded it at.
15:13:14 <elliott> The assembler handles the hard part of figuring out what's an address or not
15:13:18 <Gregor> Yeah, ELF is kinda useless for that, just use a.out.
15:13:19 <Vorpal> elliott, sounds like .dll
15:13:27 <elliott> Gregor: a.out? Even that's a bit much
15:13:29 <Gregor> a.out is just .COM but less stupid.
15:13:40 <elliott> Gregor: It has segments and relocations and tables :P
15:13:42 <Vorpal> elliott, hell you need some way to handle conflicting addresses. With no mmu, loading things that want to be at the same place would be a pain
15:13:52 <elliott> Vorpal: thus why relocatable code
15:13:59 <Gregor> elliott: a.out is just .COM without wasting space for zeros.
15:14:08 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know if you can do PC relative addressing on that thing but I doubt it
15:14:14 <elliott> JUST GONNA ASSUME THAT --TARGET= IS THE RIGHT THING
15:14:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Thus load-time code rewriting.
15:14:27 <Vorpal> elliott, so you are doing PE basically?
15:14:34 <elliott> Vorpal: You could do it without a big table of addresses.
15:14:44 <elliott> Vorpal: If I know which opcodes have addresses in their Nth position,
15:14:48 <elliott> then I can just do it to the whole code segment.
15:15:08 <elliott> Bleh, I need to compile binutils, don't I
15:15:11 <Vorpal> elliott, won't work without a separate .rodata segment. Otherwise you can't tell code from embedded read only code
15:15:27 <elliott> So don't allow embedded read-only data!
15:15:37 <Vorpal> elliott, which would break stuff :P
15:16:06 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you want to share read only code/data, your address space is tiny remember
15:16:13 <elliott> Vorpal: 8 MiB is not tiny.
15:16:23 <fizzie> I can't quite make out what form that xcoff supports in current binutils takes, it seems a bit AIX-specific... anyway, binutils 2.20 build with --target=m68k-coff starts all right but then dies with "This target is no longer supported in gas"; so at least that's not a good version to use.
15:16:23 <ais523> gah, tail recursion is so hard in call-by-name
15:16:31 <elliott> ais523: what about in call-by-push-value?
15:16:34 <ais523> well, implementing it is trivial, but writing programs that are actually tail-recursive is tricky
15:16:49 <ais523> elliott: I haven't looked into the exact details of that, but I think it's just Underload-style
15:16:52 <elliott> fizzie: Nobody likes this, do they
15:16:52 <fizzie> (2.20 is of course extra-new.)
15:17:02 <ais523> and so transforms to and from call-by-name with about equal difficulty both ways
15:17:13 <ais523> as long as you have first-class functions, which you always do in computer science
15:17:38 <elliott> fizzie: Think 2.15 might work? May 2004. You have the inchoowishion for these things.
15:18:14 <fizzie> No clue whatsoever; binutils documentation is horrible in that it doesn't really tell anything about supported formats.
15:18:35 <fizzie> The only thing I can glean from the manual is that at least 68k in general is still there. :p
15:19:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, doesn't change log list dropped targets?
15:20:47 <ais523> haha, Deewiant's antislowpoke attempt also beats allegro
15:20:55 <elliott> <mikeash> that is impressively crazy
15:21:05 <fizzie> There's an uClinux build of m68k-coff-gcc-2.7.2.3; that's at least right processor architecture and object file format family.
15:21:25 <elliott> <elliott> Which involves some sort of saner-than-MPW compiler for compiling the actual programs, so...
15:21:25 <elliott> <elliott> But hey, how hard can loading a.out be?
15:21:25 <elliott> <mikeash> this hard: |------------------O---|
15:21:32 <ais523> pity it doesn't beat FFPSG too, that would have been hilarious
15:21:39 <Deewiant> ais523: Yes, I complained about that when I submitted it :-P
15:21:45 -!- asiekierka has joined.
15:22:00 <fizzie> Then you can just translate coff to xcoff; it's just one character more, how hard could it be?
15:22:13 <Vorpal> elliott, did A/UX run under MacOS?
15:22:22 <Vorpal> elliott, or separately?
15:22:22 <elliott> Vorpal: It was a separate Os that had Mac OS inside it sort of.
15:22:48 <Gregor> I would have to read up on it to remember, but IIRC base a.out has no relocations ... there were extensions in various BSDs that did.
15:22:56 <elliott> fizzie: So er what *is* this xcoff thing like?
15:23:05 <elliott> It says it's improved and expanded.
15:23:08 <elliott> That sounds like bloat to me.
15:23:08 <elliott> [[XCOFF, for "eXtended COFF", is an improved and expanded version of the COFF object file format defined by IBM and used in AIX. Early versions of the PowerPC Macintosh also supported XCOFF, as did BeOS.]]
15:23:14 <elliott> fizzie: OK, so 68k doesn't actually use it :P
15:23:33 <fizzie> So I've heard, anyway.
15:23:35 <elliott> Mind you, a.out is pretty damn tempting at this point...
15:23:39 <elliott> fizzie: MPW does PPC too, though.
15:23:49 <Vorpal> elliott, don't ask me. I only really looked at the PPC stuff
15:23:52 <Gregor> It does have segments though, yeah.
15:24:17 <Vorpal> elliott, but yeah I think it says XCOFF on the file icon for ppc objects
15:24:23 <Vorpal> elliott, but something else on the 68k ones
15:24:36 <fizzie> elliott: Well, it *is* the "Common Object File Format", mostly platform-agnostic.
15:24:48 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:25:05 <elliott> So if I step back and just get COFF and then make it relocatable... hooray, PE :-P
15:25:14 <elliott> And I'm like 90% sure a.out is simpler than PE.
15:25:22 <fizzie> "Where is the 68K object file format documented?
15:25:22 <fizzie> In the "MPW 68K Object File Format" document (download)."
15:25:32 <Gregor> Ohyeah, it has relocations only for .o files :P
15:25:41 <Gregor> a.out is way simpler than PE.
15:25:42 <fizzie> The "download" link is to the File_Formats.sit.hqx.
15:25:59 <fizzie> So maybe they used their own custom format for m68k objects, then.
15:26:10 <elliott> Gregor: Programs are .o with all their library functions mixed in.
15:26:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, if the link works (and you paste it) I could fire up sheepshaver to unpack it
15:26:22 <ais523> is .o. some sort of smiley?
15:26:22 <elliott> Gregor: Alternatively: Programs are .o, and I give them a pointer to the shared libc space X-D
15:26:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: The mirror worked earlier today, but now it seems to be gone. Probably due all this excitement.
15:27:06 <elliott> I'm still disappointed that MPW used file extensions.
15:27:17 <elliott> Classic Mac OS is meant to be UNCOMPROMISINGLY Maccy!
15:27:34 <elliott> Honestly, they should have renamed stdio.h to "Standard I/O" in the Headers folder.
15:28:14 <ais523> and just called it stdio.h in the program itself
15:28:23 <elliott> ais523: No, no, you should have to write it
15:28:42 <ais523> (neither C89 nor C99 requires any sensible mapping from what you write in #include lines to what the file is called, or even if it's implemented via header file at all)
15:28:44 <cheater00> and also, you don't want a hash.. you would want something more self-explanatory
15:28:50 <elliott> ais523: And of course you can't have a header and a source file named the same in the same directory, so you end up having Headers and Sources folders in every project.
15:29:02 <elliott> And the filetype codes are lovingly set.
15:29:10 <cheater00> Dear Compiler, please include the library called ,,Standard I/O´´
15:31:46 <Vorpal> elliott, wait idea! Do this in HyperCard
15:32:36 <fizzie> That's funny, binutils-2.11.2 has an include/mpw/ directory with a README saying "This is a collection of include files that help imitate Posix in MPW."
15:33:18 <elliott> fizzie: Anything interesting in there?
15:33:20 <fizzie> I wonder what that's for; perhaps for building binutils with MPW, then.
15:33:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, is there any files other than that README in there?
15:33:59 <fizzie> Seems to be mostly about reading and writing files.
15:34:13 <fizzie> Though it does "#define LOSING_TOTALLY", accurately enough.
15:35:12 <Vorpal> elliott, which type of 68k object files are you interested in
15:35:16 <Vorpal> there seem to be a lot
15:35:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Whatever's easiest to relocate and jump to.
15:35:29 <Vorpal> I wonder what CFM64KLibraries is
15:35:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Also it'd be nice if it worked with PPC too.
15:35:38 <elliott> But "most" object formats are architecture-independent.
15:35:45 <elliott> I don't need fat binraies.
15:36:08 <Vorpal> elliott, the icon for these look like a document symbol with ones and zeros on it
15:37:15 <Vorpal> elliott, then there is the folder PLibraries. Since the other were in CLibraries I guess PLibraries is pascal
15:37:33 <elliott> fizzie: So did you see any Toolbox docs on that ftp that's now down?
15:37:37 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway the PPC one says 100\nXCOFF\n011 on them
15:37:41 <elliott> Those will probably be invaluable. I don't even know how to spawn a process!
15:37:46 <Vorpal> elliott, with the middle line in red and the first and last in blue
15:37:49 <elliott> Vorpal: Maybe I'll just use a.out for both.
15:37:57 <elliott> Vorpal: This thing is becoming SUCH a kernel :P
15:38:30 <fizzie> I got sidetracked looking at this binutils-2.11.2 tarball. Back then it seems to have this whole thing for supporting building the whole set with MPW. Mostly in order to use a PPC-targeting GCC there.
15:38:38 <elliott> Vorpal: In that you can't do anything with its files without starting and running the whole kernel.
15:38:42 <elliott> And the kernel is intimately tied to the formats.
15:39:01 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I'm not sure MPW uses file extension that much. Both foo.o and foo.c.x seem style naming of XCOFF files seems to be in use
15:39:21 <Vorpal> also .c.o seems to be 68k object file in that case
15:39:42 <elliott> $ ./configure --target=m68k-aout --prefix=/opt/mac
15:40:42 <fizzie> elliott: At least you can then use the raw-binary formats (and maybe a custom linker script) to extract raw m68k code you can then wrap in whatever you like.
15:40:53 <elliott> fizzie: Ye-es, but I could do that with the Totally Native Fork format, too.
15:40:57 <elliott> I'm trying to avoid MORE work here :P
15:41:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, where does that dump data segment?
15:41:31 <Vorpal> elliott, how are you going to transport a resource fork to a mac after cross compiling?
15:41:44 <elliott> I'm going to use a.out. :p
15:41:58 <Vorpal> is the fork data format even documented?
15:42:22 <Gregor> My department's web page added a "featured faculty member" to the front page.
15:42:25 <Gregor> It chooses a random faculty member and shows their name and face.
15:42:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: It dumps the sections in whichever addresses you link them. I don't know if it actually generates huge files if you link things sparsely.
15:43:12 <elliott> gcc -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I. -I. -D_GNU_SOURCE -I. -I. -I../bfd -I./config -I./../include -I./.. -I./../bfd -I./../intl -I../intl -DLOCALEDIR="\"/opt/mac/share/locale\"" -W -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -g -O2 -c app.c
15:43:12 <elliott> In file included from ./targ-cpu.h:1,
15:43:12 <elliott> from ./config/obj-aout.h:25,
15:43:13 <elliott> from ./config/te-generic.h:19,
15:43:21 <elliott> ./config/tc-m68k.h:212: error: array type has incomplete element type
15:43:41 <elliott> --target= is right, right? :-P
15:43:44 <Vorpal> elliott, hey you can click a line in the resedit disassembler and find any references to that address
15:43:55 <Vorpal> and it shows with nicely coloured arrows
15:43:57 <elliott> As in, I'm on A, I want to build a compiler that runs on A, and I want it to produce binaries for B
15:44:05 <Vorpal> for stuff like conditional/unconditional jumps
15:44:07 <fizzie> Yes, that sounds correct.
15:44:33 <elliott> fizzie: What was that nice version you mentioned?
15:44:36 <fizzie> (Time to go catch the bus homewards.)
15:44:38 <elliott> With all the suppooooooort.
15:44:59 <fizzie> m68k-coff-gcc-2.7.2.3 in the context of uClinux I did see.
15:45:37 <fizzie> 2.11.2, yes; but it was support for compiling binutils with MPW.
15:45:42 <Vorpal> elliott, he is going to a bus
15:45:45 <elliott> Yes, but that sounds suitable 2001-vintage.
15:45:58 <fizzie> Well, you can try; but it seemed quite powerpc-oriented in the docs.
15:46:12 <elliott> fizzie: It'll be just the same, it's just tahat older = nicerrrr!!!11
15:46:17 <elliott> I dont wanna build it with mpw no heavens i am not the crazies.
15:46:25 <fizzie> Anyway, if gcc-2.7.2.3 compiles as m68k-coff, the same age might work for m68k-aout.
15:47:25 <Vorpal> now you made me want to replay Avernum
15:47:31 <Vorpal> elliott, and I don't have time for that
15:48:00 <Vorpal> elliott, I will refrain from it. That would be several days of playing.
15:48:31 <Vorpal> elliott, that doesn't make sense
15:48:38 <Vorpal> elliott, it runs under mac os, not unix
15:48:44 <elliott> Euphoma can invoke native programs.
15:48:46 <Vorpal> elliott, also it is PPC
15:48:55 <elliott> Euphoma is meant to be portable :P
15:49:04 <elliott> Things that work on 68k should work on PPC, I'm just going lowest-common-denominator here to start with.
15:50:06 <elliott> bucomm.o: In function `make_tempname':
15:50:06 <elliott> /opt/mac/src/binutils-2.11.2/binutils/bucomm.c:246: warning: the use of `mktemp' is dangerous, better use `mkstemp' or `mkdtemp'
15:50:50 <Gregor> <elliott> Things that work on 68k should work on PPC, I'm just going lowest-common-denominator here to start with. <-- best logic ever
15:51:06 <elliott> Gregor: It's basically true, the m68k is retarded, PPC is not :-P
15:51:19 <elliott> Every technique or format I choose for m68k out of simplicity will work on PPC, as wasteful or stupid as it might be.
15:51:37 <elliott> extern struct relax_type md_relax_table[];
15:51:47 <elliott> OK so, this shit doesn't work with gcc 4 X-D
15:52:11 <Vorpal> Gregor, apple added emulation for 68k basically :P
15:52:25 <Vorpal> Gregor, so yes it should work on ppc macs
15:52:48 <Gregor> Vorpal: I assumed he meant work as in be convertible, not work as in "I can run it in a VM herp durp"
15:52:57 <Gregor> Since unlike him, I assume people aren't idiots.
15:53:24 <elliott> Gregor: An assumption that has cost you a great amount.
15:53:25 <Vorpal> Gregor, classic MacOS is retarded because they didn't want to break compatibility :P
15:53:30 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:53:35 <Vorpal> Gregor, so bad design choices stayed
15:53:42 <elliott> Gregor: For instance when Bush won, that must have been quite surprising.
15:54:17 <elliott> <Gregor> Since unlike him, I assume people aren't idiots.
15:54:55 <Gregor> OK, let me put that differently :P
15:55:02 <Gregor> I address people under the assumption that they are not idiots.
15:55:16 <Gregor> In spite of whatever my personal assumptions or guesses may be, contrary or otherwise.
15:55:33 <fizzie> If m68k is retarded, 8086 is some sort of ultra-retarded then. (In other words, diss on the OS/systems, not on the cpu arch.)
15:55:41 <elliott> Gregor: When I do that, usually I spend half an hour backwards-and-forthing before I realise that they did something stupid, and I tell them, and they're all "why didn't you tell me".
15:55:48 <elliott> And it's because I assumed they weren't fucking idiots
15:55:52 <elliott> So it's for your own good.
15:56:44 <oerjan> one might consider that it would be an idea to make one's assumptions have a finer gradation than "idiot" and "never says anything idiotic"
15:57:03 <elliott> oerjan: sure, people earn that granularity
15:57:12 <elliott> it's called intelligent cpu cycle allocation
15:57:21 <elliott> Gregor had not yet earned such granularity in the context of minecraft :P
15:57:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, x86 is retarded though :P
15:58:08 <oerjan> elliott: i am pointing out that it is not a good idea have those two as the default options
15:58:18 <elliott> oerjan: got a better selection?
15:58:22 <Gregor> Vorpal only uses ... Alpha.
15:58:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, har. I don't know that arch well enough to comment on retardedness of it
15:59:04 <Gregor> Vorpal only uses ... MIPS?
15:59:16 <elliott> itanium's instruction set looks pretty cool, am i weird for thinking this?
15:59:27 <Gregor> VORPAL ONLY USES HARDWARE IMPLEMENTATIONS OF JAVA
15:59:29 <Vorpal> Gregor, I'm pragmatic though. I use x86-6.
16:00:05 <elliott> Vorpal secretly uses a Reduceron.
16:00:07 <oerjan> elliott: not that i can explain in words
16:00:15 <Gregor> Who needs numbers greater than 64 anyway.
16:00:31 <elliott> Gregor: It can express the number of bits in the more common variant of x86!
16:00:38 <elliott> But not, however, the original 8086 model number.
16:00:49 <elliott> Wait, it's actually 0 to 63.
16:00:57 <elliott> IT CAN'T EVEN REPRESENT THE CONCEPT OF 64 BITS
16:01:06 <Gregor> Yeah, I should have said "greater than or equal to" :P
16:01:18 <Vorpal> elliott, btw you said eww about Harvard arches but there is actually quite a good reason to use them in SOC. You can use flash that you can execute directly from. No need to copy program to RAM
16:01:23 <Gregor> Where are our bit-addressible archs :P
16:01:32 <Vorpal> elliott, saves silicon space
16:01:39 <elliott> Vorpal: von neumann computers are kinda like cellular automata if you squint tho
16:01:46 <elliott> Gregor: Bit-addressable would rock :P
16:01:55 <Vorpal> elliott, not sure how that addresses my statement :P
16:01:57 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
16:02:14 <Vorpal> elliott, yes and it doesn't address what I just said
16:02:32 <elliott> Gregor: How about this: Everything is 1 bit, there are 256 registers, memory is bit-addressed by passing 64 values.
16:02:33 <Vorpal> also I don't see how "von neumann computers are kinda like cellular automata if you squint tho"
16:03:23 <elliott> Gregor: If the base registers are a[0-256], then bytes are h[0-32].
16:03:48 <elliott> Gregor: And, uhh, wait, we need more than 256 registers by far :P
16:03:56 <oerjan> <elliott_> ais523: hmm, not on the wikipedia page, but IIRC oerjan pretty much slam-dunked it once
16:04:01 <elliott> Gregor: Try 1,024 registers.
16:04:09 <oerjan> i certainly cannot recall proving dupdog definitely non-TC
16:04:36 <elliott> Gregor: And while you can say "deref a b c d [...]", it's more convenient to say "deref b64.r3" or something :-P
16:04:41 <elliott> COME ON, BEST ARCHITECTURE EVER
16:05:02 <ais523> that should be enough for everyone
16:05:15 <elliott> "(2^64) bytes = 16 384 petabytes"
16:05:19 <elliott> "Showing results for 2^64 bytes in petabytes. Search instead for 2^64 bits in petabyes"
16:05:20 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:05:57 <elliott> if we're going bit-addressable
16:06:05 <Gregor> Kaksikymmentneljtuntiaikakausitmnhetkinen
16:06:10 <oerjan> i would say my current best guess is that it isn't TC, but then my initial best guess was non-TC for every non-trivial step of my recent underload endeavour, and i was wrong every time :D
16:06:27 <elliott> So yes, 2,048 registers :-P
16:06:31 <ais523> oerjan: well, I thought the 2,3 machine was non-TC to start off with
16:06:33 <Gregor> Wow, translate.google.com actually understood that ... "Twenty-Four Hour Period As One moment"
16:06:38 <elliott> Which gives you slightly less than 32 full addresses in registers.
16:06:46 <elliott> Gregor: It's the word I meticulously constructed with oklopol's help in Finnish.
16:06:54 <elliott> It means "day", if you're insane.
16:06:54 <Zwaarddijk> Gregor: that doesn't look like proper Finnish, though
16:07:07 <elliott> oklopol understood it, that's good enough for me.
16:07:48 <elliott> some finn pronounce it and upload the wav
16:07:51 <elliott> i can only imagine it will sound amazing
16:08:08 <elliott> that sounds even funnier, do it
16:08:14 <elliott> say bork bork bork at the end
16:08:24 <elliott> otherwise how can i take you seriously, you might not be a real swede.
16:08:36 <Vorpal> elliott, that isn't even Swedish in any sense
16:08:36 <oerjan> ais523: btw for that one, is there a definite proof that it isn't TC with finite initialization?
16:08:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Your mom isn't Swedish in any sense.
16:09:09 <ais523> there is a proof that it's non-TC unless you have infinitely many white cells, but that isn't particularly useful
16:09:23 <elliott> Gregor: Quick, add !dupdog so that oerjan can start proving.
16:09:38 <Vorpal> ais523, isn't that just saying that it needs infinite memory to be TC?
16:09:40 -!- Sgeo has joined.
16:09:59 <ais523> "infinitely many cells" is obviously needed
16:10:06 <ais523> but nothing in TCness implies that an infinite subset of them have to be white
16:10:14 <lambdabot> forall a. (Integral a) => a -> Bool
16:10:19 <Vorpal> ais523, what is the set of possible colours?
16:10:31 <ais523> white, yellow, orange in most of the Wolfram drawings of the machine
16:10:34 <ais523> although I just call them 0,1,2
16:10:52 <ais523> (I don't think anyone's tried to draw the machine but the Wolfram people and me)
16:11:12 <Zwaarddijk> http://miekko.infa.fi/kaksikymment.ogg
16:11:26 <Zwaarddijk> whoops, I should've added a bork bork bork there :|
16:11:27 <Vorpal> ais523, so is it a CA or TM what? I think I need to read up on dupdog
16:11:53 <elliott> Vorpal: another guy in here
16:11:54 <ais523> it's one of those joke esolangs that's not quite obviously stupid
16:12:05 <Gregor> QUICK, someone upload it to the wiki as a pronunciation key!
16:12:29 <Vorpal> <ais523> what, dupdog? <-- I thought you were talking about dupdog above
16:12:34 <Vorpal> ais523, or was that just elliott?
16:12:37 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: MAKE IT NON-403 SO QUICKLY
16:12:44 <Vorpal> ais523, in that case which language *were* you talking about
16:12:51 <elliott> ais523: we can't have tha fnacy pronunciation icon right?
16:12:52 -!- Sgeo__ has joined.
16:12:58 <ais523> the conversation was about more than one language
16:13:00 <Sgeo__> Dear connection: What the hell?
16:13:08 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:13:11 <ais523> dupdog was one mentioned, but so were Xigxag and the 2,3 machine
16:13:28 <Vorpal> elliott, how is it even related to our wiki (that sound)
16:13:34 <ais523> also, minimized Underload, although that doesn't fit the question
16:13:56 <Zwaarddijk> that's random - usually, stuff I scp there gets the right permissions immediately
16:14:05 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:14:12 <Zwaarddijk> apparently this time stuff didn't work out like that :|
16:14:34 <elliott> Vorpal: it's the pronunciation of what's on the homepage
16:15:00 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: Permission to upload that to the wiki as public domain? :-P
16:15:05 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:15:07 <oerjan> ais523: heh now i wonder if you could remove something more from underload if you allowed an infinite program :D
16:15:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know what to search for
16:16:06 <Zwaarddijk> altho' as I said, I have a bit of an accent, altho' that accent is sort of recursive
16:16:20 <Zwaarddijk> my Swedish is basically Swedish as influenced 500 years by Finnish
16:16:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:16:50 <Zwaarddijk> and Finnish is influenced by germanic anyway, so we end up with ... some kind of converging shit
16:16:56 <elliott> ".ogg" is not a recommended image file format.
16:17:14 <elliott> "Warning"; I don't see any way to IGNORE that warning :P
16:17:17 <elliott> ais523: ojgoidfjgiodfogd haven't slept
16:17:27 <elliott> ais523: Can FANCY ADMINS LIKE YOU upload oggs?
16:17:29 <ais523> elliott: there's normally an "ignore warnings" checkbox
16:17:31 <oerjan> ais523: yeah it would seem that you could then _never_ get information out of a stack
16:17:55 <ais523> oerjan: is a one-way information transfer enough?
16:17:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, allowed upload types are defined in the MW config, so I'm guessing no.
16:18:05 <ais523> elliott: oh, if even with the override it doesn't work, I can't override it either
16:18:12 <ais523> as it must be being done at the PHP level
16:18:16 * elliott just makes a fake page for the pronunciation
16:18:20 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:18:21 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:18:55 <ais523> oh, I'd be surprised if graue didn't respond to emails
16:19:07 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
16:19:43 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: Thank you for your valuable service to the community.
16:20:23 <elliott> I think we can all agree that the world of esolangs was advanced today.
16:20:52 <Zwaarddijk> would've been advanced even more if I had an esoteric finnish dialect.
16:21:00 <Zwaarddijk> something like, uh, ingrian or somesuch
16:21:08 <elliott> it's ok, we have an esoteric word to make up for it
16:21:17 <Zwaarddijk> I think I can pull that off, though, as they all are knee-deep in Russians
16:21:20 <elliott> now someone make an esolang based on it so nobody can complain
16:21:22 <Zwaarddijk> and therefore sound, unsurprisingly, like Russians?
16:21:26 <elliott> preferably kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen should be the cat program
16:23:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
16:24:26 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:25:25 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: I have decoded your hostile language.
16:26:04 <oerjan> lessee without :, (A)(^B) is equivalent to (AB)
16:26:51 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Based on randomly decomposing fake Finnish words, that is :P
16:27:24 <oerjan> ((A1)...(An)B) is equivalent to (A1)...(An)(B)
16:27:43 <elliott> actually tuntiai can decompose into tunti (null), ai (equals)
16:28:21 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.01: 4k to India, 64k to China, 256 to Hong Kong. Slow day.
16:28:55 <oerjan> (A)^ is of course equivalent to A
16:29:13 <ais523> Ilari: aren't slow days a /good/ thing in this context?
16:29:35 <oerjan> i think this allows you to recude everything down to an at most 1 level deep expression
16:29:45 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: män is now end of block :P
16:30:11 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: http://sprunge.us/KdMF
16:30:42 <oerjan> hm or wait you can have (^(^(^...)))
16:31:25 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: Do any of those decomposed elements have meaning in Finnish? :P
16:31:46 -!- Slereah has joined.
16:35:14 <Zwaarddijk> -ki = colloquial variation on -kin, a suffix meaning "even, too, also"
16:38:26 <oerjan> also, every single one of those probably means something in japanese too >:)
16:39:13 <elliott> Vorpal: whas good n64 emulator cant typ
16:39:17 <Zwaarddijk> if you cut Finnish up randomly it often looks very japanese
16:39:29 <Zwaarddijk> but if you just let it be like it is, it's distinct enough
16:39:35 <elliott> iirc pikhq said that with simple substutition the bug word became nonsense japanese
16:39:46 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: i bet letter-based markov bots are fun in finnish
16:40:32 <Zwaarddijk> never tried one, but .. uh, afaict markov-bots can't maintain vowel harmony?
16:40:48 <Zwaarddijk> yeah but, vowel harmony is v. important for Finnish
16:41:11 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: whas good n64 emulator cant typ <-- for linux mupen64plus is your best bet
16:41:17 <Vorpal> heard there were better ones for windows
16:41:18 <Zwaarddijk> (and estonian chicks, my god, some of them are crazily beautiful)
16:41:24 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway how goes the toolchain?
16:41:25 <elliott> Vorpal: assume i have infinitely powerful hardware
16:41:34 <elliott> toolchain i'm holding off on until i decide on object format/versions
16:41:42 <oerjan> Zwaarddijk: why couldn't they maintain vowel harmony, it's a simple finite state thing...
16:41:46 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know any cycle accurate one if that is what you mean
16:41:52 <elliott> Vorpal: heck no, that's excessive
16:42:07 <oerjan> you might need to adjust them a little for it
16:42:08 <Vorpal> elliott, for linux mupen64plus is the only one I know of
16:42:10 <elliott> yeah looks like mupen is the only one
16:42:19 <Vorpal> elliott, the "Plus" bit is important
16:42:29 <elliott> Vorpal: any emulation pitfalls?
16:42:34 <elliott> i'm gonna try out sm64 finally :P
16:43:49 <ais523> elliott: that's the only game that mupen emulates correctly pretty much no matter what the settings are
16:43:58 <Vorpal> elliott, and yes the emulation is not perfect. No noticeable issues in mario64 though
16:43:59 <ais523> it's incredibly picky on every other game for the console
16:44:08 <elliott> Vorpal: i heard something about a beam of light
16:44:12 <Vorpal> ais523, zelda64 oot works fairly well too
16:44:23 <ais523> anyway, why don't you just play the DS version? it's still on sale
16:44:26 <elliott> maybe we _do_ need a cycle-accurate nintendo 64 emulator :)
16:44:34 <elliott> if we can't trust people to write a decent higher-level one
16:44:51 <elliott> ais523: I find the DS uncomfortably small to play for long periods of time i.e. any longer game
16:44:57 <elliott> ais523: and prefer originals to remakes
16:45:10 <Vorpal> elliott, you can/could get most games to work. But the last mupen64plus version lacks a GUI. They rewrote the large bits but never ported the GUI over
16:45:16 -!- Tritonio has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:45:17 <Vorpal> so you need to fiddle with command line args
16:45:22 <Vorpal> should be easy for mario64
16:45:28 <Vorpal> but for most other games *shudder*
16:45:28 <ais523> oh, I find computers uncomfortably large
16:45:41 <elliott> ais523: it's about the display for me
16:45:51 <elliott> ais523: I'm fine with a tiny gamepad, but I can't play on a small screen
16:45:54 <Vorpal> elliott, for mario64 it is probably just ./mupen64plus mario.v64 (or whatever extension it is)
16:46:04 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, once I rip the ROM from my cartridge
16:46:11 <elliott> therefore no more needs to be said
16:46:14 <oerjan> Zwaarddijk: i guess the problem is that you could have arbitrary long chains without a vowel of specific harmony, so you cannot use a finite length chain ... although i think fizzie looked at markov chains with adjustable length
16:47:10 <oerjan> (for fungot's babbling)
16:47:10 <fungot> oerjan: http://www.youtube.com/ fnord but rather violent... nothing for sensitive people
16:47:23 <Zwaarddijk> i don't actually know too much about markov chains, I should probably read up
16:47:44 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: they're trivial
16:48:01 <oerjan> fizzie: ok you need to wrap up a letter-based, vowel harmony preserving finnish style for fungot ;D
16:48:02 <fungot> oerjan: time for lesson 2? what about godel is also gödel is undecidable. of course. but that view won't help anything. shivers wrote it years ago; it's there.
16:48:06 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: for babble generation: you have a map (last N units) => {set of (following unit, probability)}
16:48:17 <elliott> you start with a START token, pick a random next one weighted by probability
16:48:23 <elliott> repeat taking the last N from your output
16:49:33 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: units can be words or vowels or whatever ofc
16:50:51 <Ilari> Of course, to preserve specific harmony, one could put the current harmony (not known, front, back) among those last N units.
16:51:16 <Zwaarddijk> ah, I thought they were defined as last units => set of following units (altho' that's equivalent, really)
16:51:37 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: yep, but the probability is of course important
16:51:41 <elliott> to generate even vaguely coherent things
16:52:02 <elliott> you can basically just insert by frequency and then turn that into weighting to make things simpelr from an implementation POV of course
16:52:02 <Zwaarddijk> yes, well, I left that sort of implicit there
16:52:11 <elliott> well that's how they are defined then
16:52:24 <Zwaarddijk> I meant "last unit => set of following units"
16:52:32 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: that's just an order-1 markov chain
16:52:39 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: which...works, but won't produce anything coherent at all
16:52:51 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: "what comes after 'a'" "oh, occasionally 'x'" "axoiajdioasjoisdfksngdfbslkjerbg"
16:53:16 <oerjan> which is the name of a small mountain in georgian.
16:53:34 <Zwaarddijk> you should go for something in salishan languages instead
16:53:36 <oerjan> (note: not _entirely_ accurate)
16:53:52 <Zwaarddijk> then you could do things like qsqvkdmllqklitsk
16:54:06 <Ilari> Of course, the more units are considered, the larger the tables (and more difficult to estimate the probabilties).
16:54:08 <Zwaarddijk> oh i accidentally almost typed clit in there
16:54:19 <elliott> Ilari: you just need a large corpus
16:54:55 <Zwaarddijk> salishan languages actually challenge the idea that syllables are a linguistic universal :)
16:55:51 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: That's a load of bullshdifogrjknydnmdfhjkgslvfkdghksjdkdjgjksletapw;rlmvo*£$&@*(!@)~{P_@)(~~
16:56:01 <elliott> "They are characterised by agglutinativity and astonishing consonant clusters — for instance the Nuxálk word xłp̓x̣ʷłtłpłłskʷc̓ (IPA: [xɬpʼχʷɬtʰɬpʰɬːskʷʰt͡sʼ]) meaning ‘he had had [in his possession] a bunchberry plant’ has thirteen obstruent consonants in a row with no vowels."
16:56:05 <elliott> that's the sexiest word i've ever seen.
16:56:13 <elliott> it has no pronunciation link though, i want a pronunciation link
16:57:01 <Phantom__Hoover> Huh, the chemical symbol for tungsten comes from "wolfram".
16:57:17 <oerjan> someone tried to upload a pronunciation, but he choked on his tongue
16:57:51 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: it's called wolfram in norwegian
16:58:09 <oerjan> it's a new kind of element
17:00:31 <elliott> Wow, the Mario 64 title screen is ... disturbing.
17:01:13 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
17:01:48 <elliott> Vorpal: Does mupen64 no longer support configuring KEYS? :P
17:02:16 <Vorpal> elliott, through a config file iirc...
17:02:22 <elliott> Vorpal: It has a GUI here...
17:02:59 <Vorpal> elliott, oh then you can find it under settings. Look for the configuration of which input plugin to use
17:03:07 <elliott> yes, the settings don't pop up anything
17:03:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I assume you use sdl?
17:03:14 <elliott> sdl input. yes. the only available one.
17:03:23 <Vorpal> elliott, then click config it or such
17:03:27 <Vorpal> if that doesn't work I don't know
17:07:27 <elliott> ais523: do you know of any compilers that are truly single-pass?
17:07:55 <ais523> as in, never ever go back to anything they've previously covered for any reason?
17:08:00 <ais523> it'd have to be not AST-based
17:08:08 <ais523> I imagine some stupid BF compilers work like that
17:08:10 <oerjan> wasn't original pascal single-pass
17:08:19 <oerjan> ok maybe not that strictly...
17:08:32 <ais523> oerjan: I was thinking about that, but not sure if it matched the restriction
17:09:24 <elliott> i like how mupen64plus doesn't trust you with its build system
17:09:29 <elliott> it just gives you an optionless shell script to use insetad.
17:09:30 <oerjan> if remembering the position of a previous element counts as going back to it, then even bf looks hard...
17:09:39 <Phantom__Hoover> Oh god, there's more tau stuff on the front page of Reddit.
17:09:58 <ais523> oerjan: you can compile it into while { and }
17:10:01 <elliott> oerjan: ais523: Let's say: You can keep track of state as you see it, but there must be NO backtracking in the input stream.
17:10:04 <ais523> without tracking the nesting at all yourself
17:10:09 <elliott> And you must never go back an arbitrary distance?
17:10:17 <ais523> elliott: in the input stream? then it's easy, you can just load the file into memory
17:10:29 <elliott> ais523: nope, because that involves going back arbitrarily
17:10:41 <elliott> (if you're using that to subvert the restriction)
17:10:52 <elliott> i.e., in (a + b), + only has to look one back
17:11:04 <elliott> being able to say (... a b c + d) would not be OK
17:11:10 <oerjan> elliott: ok so it's LR(k) parsing-wise, at least
17:11:28 <elliott> oerjan: hmm, maybe i should restrict it more :)
17:11:33 <oerjan> but that's not a very big restriction
17:13:20 <oerjan> elliott: one thing i thought of is that you can only write a bounded amount of computer result for a bounded amount of input, while always going forward in both input and compiled stream
17:14:25 <oerjan> this means of course that compiling a [ cannot look at the corresponding ]...
17:15:04 <oerjan> but then it becomes very dependent on the branching power of the language you are compiling _into_
17:15:52 <elliott> oerjan: assume you can define labels, at least
17:16:47 <elliott> Vorpal: so, uh... nintendo 64 without a gamepad or joystick
17:17:02 <oerjan> yeah then you could do it by assigning the label name for the ] when you hit the [
17:17:50 <oerjan> (you also need the label for [ of course)
17:18:16 -!- cheater- has joined.
17:18:20 <oerjan> (then the question becomes whether using the label for [ counts as going backwards or not)
17:19:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:19:30 <elliott> oerjan: no, because you can use a stack
17:19:33 <elliott> and you only have to look back one
17:19:42 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: so, uh... nintendo 64 without a gamepad or joystick <-- I used keyboard since an aircraft joystick doesn't work well with games assuming a gamepad
17:19:54 <Vorpal> the range of movement is so very different
17:19:56 <oerjan> hm you could make [ push its label at runtime instead, so you didn't have to let ] look at the [ label while compiling
17:20:01 <elliott> I really need to buy a solid PS2 controller and use it forever.
17:20:23 <elliott> oerjan: you could also compile all langs into source + interp that way and bypass all restrictions...
17:21:03 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:24:23 <elliott> Vorpal: this castle is a bit dramatic.
17:25:42 <elliott> I sure hope you can just say "A" and "B" and the like here.
17:26:07 <Vorpal> elliott, not that I know of
17:26:30 <Vorpal> elliott, I think they are sdl keycodes anyway
17:30:21 <elliott> Vorpal: THIS GAME DOES NOT HAVE ALL THE NICE MOVING STUFF GALAXY HAS
17:30:35 <elliott> I miss crouch-backflipping, catching on to a wall, kicking off, then spinning.
17:30:47 <Vorpal> elliott, you can do a wall jump if that is what you mean
17:31:15 <Vorpal> elliott, you can do long jumps by crouching (Z iirc?) and then jumpng
17:31:27 <Vorpal> elliott, yes pretty sure
17:31:31 <elliott> Can you follow a backflip with a wall jump?
17:32:10 <Lymia> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-12249172
17:32:12 <Lymia> What could go wrong?
17:32:23 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway changes in later games. What else would you expect
17:32:44 <Vorpal> elliott, next you will demand these kind of things in SMB!
17:33:14 <elliott> not sure how i feel about this game anthropomorphising bombs as happy, carefree creatures
17:33:20 <Phantom__Hoover> Lymia, UNLESS THE PAEDOS USE IT TO TRACK OUR CHILDREN!!!!!!
17:35:49 * oerjan recalls once upon a time he was in a role-playing game with a happy, carefree missile
17:37:38 <oerjan> (we sold it to the local mafia. it seemed like the least dangerous option.)
17:38:18 <oerjan> hm actually the missile wasn't the main thing we sold, just something that happened to be stored on the premises.
17:40:51 <elliott> oerjan: ok hm so what's LR(1) for this one-pass thing
17:41:05 <elliott> oerjan: you can look at the last production generated?
17:41:15 <elliott> that'd mean you could not do nested loops
17:41:25 <oerjan> LR(1) uses a stack and a finite state
17:41:36 <Lymia> What are you talking about.
17:43:11 -!- cheater00 has joined.
17:43:23 <oerjan> which reminds me somehow of that right bracket language
17:43:56 <oerjan> (i don't think going to the next _non-matched_ bracket can do nesting either)
17:44:12 <elliott> so is LR(!) actually sufficient for bf here?
17:44:49 <oerjan> bf is certainly LR(1) in the usual sense, and i think LL(1) too
17:45:03 <elliott> oerjan: right, but is that actually relevant to this compilery thing
17:45:06 <elliott> because it has to keep its state like that too
17:45:08 <oerjan> might even be LR(0) if you look at it the right way
17:45:20 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:46:15 <oerjan> elliott: well i think the labels can be put on the same stack if that's what you mean
17:46:30 <elliott> oerjan: i'm just figuring with my "can only access a bounded amount back"
17:46:37 <elliott> how small it can get while still being able to compile Pascal-- ;D
17:47:01 <oerjan> well pascal more or less requires a dictionary, doesn't it
17:47:33 <oerjan> there is no requirement to only use variables in stack order of definition :D
17:47:55 <elliott> oerjan: that would be an awesome requirement :D
17:48:30 <oerjan> hm what would lambda calculus look like with that
17:48:56 <elliott> Pascal --> lambda calculus
17:49:11 <oerjan> they _do_ share the lexical scoping
17:50:57 <oerjan> inside a \x -> ..., all accesses to x must come before all accesses to outer variables
17:51:46 <oerjan> so say \x y -> y (\z -> z y) x is legal
17:53:00 <elliott> it turns out it's equivalent to the superstrict lambda calculus, i deduced this because i'm a genius
17:53:08 <elliott> don't have any reasoning, just told my past self (i.e. my present self) it was so
17:53:13 <elliott> so i guess i figure it out in a few years, stay tuned
17:54:01 <oerjan> you have i = \x -> x and k = \x y -> x both legal
17:54:23 <Phantom__Hoover> There is an idiot on BBC news claiming that the Fukushima plant has basically gone Chernobyl and it's being covered up.
17:54:47 <oerjan> s = \x y z -> x z (y z) is not, at least in that form
17:55:13 <elliott> or can you not mention it twice?
17:56:04 <elliott> oerjan: \x y z -> (\a c b d -> a b (c d)) x y z z
17:57:44 <oerjan> um are you saying that gives s
17:57:58 <elliott> oerjan: i'm... hypothesising that that gives s, if you make it queue order instead
17:58:10 <elliott> oerjan: \x y z -> (\a b c d -> a c (b d)) x y z z
17:58:35 <oerjan> well what about that reversing, hm
17:58:46 <elliott> <elliott> oerjan: \x y z -> (\a c b d -> a b (c d)) x y z z
17:58:52 <elliott> but i'm sure you just need flip
17:59:04 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:59:21 <elliott> \f x y. (\y' x' f'. f' x' y') y x f
18:00:15 <elliott> do my thinks for me oerjan
18:01:24 <oerjan> a little adjustment of that gives you compose
18:01:41 <Lymia> I see functional programming.
18:01:44 <Lymia> I'm not sure if I want.
18:01:47 <oerjan> \f x y. (\y' x' f'. f' (x' y')) y x f
18:02:03 <elliott> Lymia: this isn't functional programming.
18:02:06 <elliott> this is pathological functional programming.
18:02:31 <elliott> that was stolen for something on the wiki already i think :)
18:03:52 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
18:03:59 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/0x29A
18:04:39 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: id ignore index instances instances-importing irc-connect . ? @ v
18:04:53 <lambdabot> forall a. (Integral a) => a -> String -> String
18:05:59 <Vorpal> elliott, still playing or did you get bored?
18:06:17 <elliott> and also really fucking tired
18:06:25 -!- elliott has left (?).
18:06:27 -!- elliott has joined.
18:07:27 <Phantom__Hoover> Jesus, actually reading about the Chernobyl disaster is depressing.
18:10:35 <fizzie> Phantom__Hoover: Every three years or so I wikiread the topic with a non-deterministic depth-limited BFS for a day or three. (Not sure why.)
18:11:11 <fizzie> Last time I did that I did find this photo, though: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Peacekeeper-missile-testing.jpg
18:12:25 -!- atrapado has joined.
18:12:30 <fizzie> Breadth-first search; how *couldn't* you do that on a graph?
18:13:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, technically by not performing it
18:14:42 <fizzie> Well, yes. But doing it with a browser is borderline trivial. Or at least with a config that makes "open in new tab" open at the end of the tab bar.
18:15:51 <elliott> a yway cherlaer chernobyl deserved it because of perl harbor
18:16:32 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:16:55 <oerjan> yeah how dared those russians push perl on us
18:17:14 <elliott> inour oaeubrs no less!k1'1
18:17:51 <oerjan> elliott: hallucinating yet?
18:18:19 <oerjan> not sufficiently deprived, then
18:18:23 <Vorpal> elliott, this IRC thing is all in your mind
18:18:27 <elliott> oerjan: think i should oo for 72 hrs??????
18:18:49 <oerjan> ooing for 72 hours is _not_ recommended
18:18:54 <elliott> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:18:58 <elliott> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:19:01 <elliott> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:19:01 <oerjan> it'll ruin your voice cords
18:19:07 <elliott> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:19:10 <elliott> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:19:13 <elliott> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:19:16 <elliott> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:19:17 <elliott> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:19:23 <elliott> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:19:25 <elliott> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:19:29 <elliott> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:19:33 <elliott> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:19:38 <elliott> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:19:42 <elliott> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:19:44 <elliott> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:19:46 <elliott> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:19:49 <elliott> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:19:51 <elliott> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:19:54 <elliott> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:19:57 <elliott> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:19:59 <elliott> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:20:00 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | what now?.
18:20:01 <elliott> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
18:20:40 <optbot> Phantom__Hoover: I rarely, if ever, read it.
18:20:48 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: IT'S FROM 2008
18:20:56 <elliott> it's been here longer than you
18:21:04 <elliott> so "latest" is objectively wrong?
18:21:06 <Vorpal> but I forgot what it did
18:21:29 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, so what if it was here in '08? I would have opposed it then as well.
18:21:56 <elliott> sure, but that's assuming i actually care that you oppose. i've already discussed it with oerjan and am implementing the fix we agreed on soon
18:22:00 <elliott> like when i'm not 90% asleep.
18:22:08 <elliott> you whine about everything. :p
18:22:18 <elliott> Vorpal: *and fungot inspiration
18:22:19 <fungot> elliott: can you put your call-,with-* hack for scheme-mode? and if so, what does syntax-case buy you over define-macro?
18:22:26 <Vorpal> elliott, oh really, mkay
18:22:28 <elliott> OK, fungot babble inspiration
18:22:29 <fungot> elliott: do you run emacs in konsole
18:22:36 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, fizzie was all "i am inadequate ;_; must compensate"
18:22:41 <elliott> so he brought out all the n-grams.
18:22:53 <Vorpal> elliott, what did you do? just random letters?
18:23:02 <elliott> Vorpal: it does exactly what it did then
18:23:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't remember!
18:23:14 <elliott> Vorpal: you'll get it in a few pings
18:23:19 <elliott> it makes it very obvious sometimes
18:23:23 <optbot> Vorpal: oh, i seem to remember now
18:23:36 -!- Gregor has set topic: /mode +t | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
18:23:36 <Vorpal> elliott, I think it quotes log
18:23:45 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe not full lines, don't know yet
18:24:05 <Phantom__Hoover> RTFLogs is not a response to all requests for information.
18:24:07 <Gregor> elliott: I know it's off, that's still yukks :P
18:24:08 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: 12 hour timeout after last change by anyone
18:24:17 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: it is when you're being irritating about it.
18:24:22 <Phantom__Hoover> I'm not going to sift through the logs to find everything.
18:24:31 <elliott> then don't be irritating/obnoxious.
18:24:34 -!- Vorpal has set topic: /mode +t | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | + Gregor has changed the topic to: /mode +t | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
18:24:40 -!- elliott has set topic: * Vorpal has changed the topic to: /mode +t | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | + Gregor has changed the topic to: /mode +t | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
18:24:47 <elliott> we need a fixed-point topic.
18:24:59 <Vorpal> elliott, yep, we will easily hit limit
18:24:59 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | F.
18:25:01 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, OK, expressing my discontent for your bot is being irritating and obnoxious.
18:25:13 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: nope, expressing it in the way you did (an obnoxious way) is
18:25:16 -!- Gregor has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | * Gregor has changed the topic to: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | * Gregor has changed the topic to: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | * Gregor has changed the topic to: logs: http://tunes.
18:25:20 -!- elliott has set topic: * Gregor has changed the topic to: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | * Gregor has changed the topic to: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | * Gregor has changed the topic to: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | * Gregor has chang.
18:25:21 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, what do you expect...
18:25:37 <Gregor> How did we end up with a different length :P
18:25:39 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, come on :P
18:25:43 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Vorpal: plz realise: "I don't like optbot" != "optbot is elliott's latest stupid project and it's retarded and stupid and dumb"
18:25:43 <optbot> elliott: that's like making printf return an integer so you can do printf("Hello, world!\n") + printf("Bye!\n");
18:25:53 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, I agreed with you about elliott's treatment of you.
18:25:55 <elliott> latter does not get spoonfed log lines
18:26:02 <Vorpal> though I'm neutral on optbot
18:26:14 <elliott> vorpal's constant attempts to agree with everyone who's taking a negative view of me remain unhampered.
18:26:15 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah it isn't your latest stupid one
18:26:38 <Vorpal> however I do feel both you and Phantom__Hoover should calm down
18:27:28 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, I can't see why. I just told you both to calm down...
18:30:02 <oerjan> about the surest way to make people ignore you, i should think
18:30:28 <Vorpal> oerjan, no one likes feeling they are at fault
18:31:05 <oerjan> yeah faults are dangerous, look at japan
18:31:27 <Vorpal> oerjan, may I borrow your flyswatter for a moment?
18:31:44 <Vorpal> wait I forgot the shape. what length is it?
18:32:36 * Vorpal swats oerjan for that pun-----###
18:32:45 <Vorpal> here you can have it back
18:37:15 <quintopia> what's the command for makin an hg repo directory match the server it was cloned from?
18:37:27 <elliott> do you mean pulling new changes
18:38:12 <oerjan> rtfm, rm -rf, so close
18:40:05 -!- Gregor has set topic: λf.(λx.f (x x)) (λx.f (x x)), bitches! | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
18:40:50 <Phantom__Hoover> ISTR it's from that tattoo, but then again it might not be.
18:53:04 -!- pingveno has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
18:55:39 -!- pingveno has joined.
18:58:04 <Gregor> oerjan: I certainly hope you weren't referring to the topic ...
18:58:45 <elliott> i like how nobody noticed Deewiant even said anything
18:59:45 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, I noticed, but I ignored him because I was otherwise engaged.
19:00:02 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: You're getting married? Congratulations
19:00:29 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Wait, wait, let me guess. Gold.
19:00:59 <elliott> oerjan: it would have a drastic ego containment field collapse
19:01:12 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: I propose :kanye:
19:01:33 <elliott> I'm assuming you mean shutter shades.
19:03:27 <oerjan> <elliott> i like how nobody noticed Deewiant even said anything <-- um am i being trolled
19:03:30 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, I mean a metal hipster because that is what I am.
19:03:43 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: THERE IS NO SUCH THING
19:03:48 <oerjan> because afaict Deewiant hasn't spoken recently
19:04:42 <oerjan> elliott: unless you mean that optbot! which i don't see why should need noticing...
19:04:43 <optbot> oerjan: sp0 will not work on my comp
19:05:16 <oerjan> elliott: well in that case i did notice.
19:11:44 <Gregor> What's more dangerous than glass to put mercury in in a ring ...
19:11:44 <Gregor> (But equally transparent)
19:12:16 <Gregor> elliott: Good luck making that maintain the shape of a ring.
19:12:23 <elliott> Gregor: You never said it had to last long
19:12:32 <elliott> Gregor: It'll last about as long as Phantom__Hoover's marriage
19:13:39 <Gregor> What's more dangerous than glass to put mercury in in a ring BUT IS ALSO TRANSPARENT, SOLID AND STABLE AT ROOM TEMPERATURE
19:13:49 <oerjan> the marriage is doomed anyway if they don't have the right chemistry
19:14:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:14:54 <oerjan> sheesh, all these restrictions
19:16:13 <Gregor> Maybe instead I'll go with semitransparent and use a mesh in which the pores are slightly smaller than mercury's natural drop size :P
19:16:28 <elliott> http://www.moral-politics.com/Temp/Pol_06449af7e2ec4ac5af505245273c9a61.png DO I WIN
19:16:37 <elliott> I'm pretty sure getting into one of the corners is how you win
19:21:14 <Phantom__Hoover> <elliott> Gregor: It'll last about as long as Phantom__Hoover's marriage
19:21:31 <Phantom__Hoover> Sure, since I plan to go through with the osmium ring plan with a wealthy heiress.
19:21:42 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: It's not my fault you're planning to marry an extremely unstable isotope.
19:21:56 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
19:22:31 <Gregor> elliott: wtf does that even mean
19:23:10 <Gregor> I'm likin' my mesh idea, but I think the drop size for mercury is quite small :P
19:23:13 <elliott> Gregor: Result of taking the silly test at http://www.moral-politics.com/.
19:23:26 <elliott> Apparently I fall somewhere between social democratism and activism.
19:23:38 <elliott> Apparently activism is A FORM OF MILD SOCIALISM.
19:24:01 <elliott> It's a bullshit test and some of the answers have really biased wording
19:24:09 <elliott> [[Of the 666,816 respondents (11,708 on Facebook):
19:24:09 <elliott> 81% are more conservative.
19:24:10 <elliott> 7% are more authoritarian.]]
19:24:12 <elliott> PRETTY SURE THAT MEANS I WIN
19:24:24 <elliott> (7% are more authoritarian? wtf i never said anything authoritarian...)
19:24:34 * elliott redoes the political compass test while he's at it.
19:25:23 <elliott> Gleh, forgot how badly-worded some of the questions on this are, too.
19:25:26 <elliott> "People are ultimately divided more by class than by nationality."
19:25:36 <elliott> I have no idea whether this is saying "In practice, ..." or "Inherently, ...".
19:26:49 <Phantom__Hoover> I like the implication that noöne thinks women are better than men.
19:27:27 <elliott> What I hate about these tests is the questions that are basically trying to funnel you into one of two categories and are really obvious about it
19:27:36 <elliott> e.g. "Controlling inflation is more important than controlling unemployment."
19:28:24 * Phantom__Hoover wonders which political system would be best for an online sandbox economy thing á la EVE.
19:28:46 <elliott> I'd like to see a game economy ENTIRELY based around the fact that you can play the game with enough money.
19:28:58 <elliott> Like you can with EVE, except the servers being the Fort Knox.
19:29:19 <elliott> "Those with the ability to pay should have the right to higher standards of medical care ." ;; you can't just ask me this and not also ask me if I support public healthcare, ffs
19:29:35 <elliott> Either you want to outlaw Bupa, or you want to make everyone die on the streets!
19:30:08 <elliott> This is the political compass, btw.
19:30:19 <elliott> Amusingly I think I register as more conservative/authoritarian than I really am on these because of bad questions...
19:30:40 <elliott> "People are ultimately divided more by class than by nationality."
19:30:43 <elliott> HOW DO I EVEN DISAGREE/AGREE TO THAT
19:30:48 <elliott> IS IT WHAT I WANT TO BE TRUE, IS IT WHAT I THINK IS TRUE IN PRACTICE
19:31:45 -!- copumpkin has joined.
19:31:45 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
19:31:45 -!- copumpkin has joined.
19:34:33 -!- augur has joined.
19:34:54 <oklopol> everyone's dissing on elliott again, i'll jump the bandwagon: elliott: optbot's nick has a typo
19:34:55 <optbot> oklopol: and well there are lots of process supervision stuff built in. Oh and hot code reloading. Oh and support for distributed nodes and what not. Not features of your typical "scripting" language.
19:34:59 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:35:05 <elliott> oklopol: nah Phantom__Hoover was totally a bro
19:35:13 <elliott> Vorpal was just totally a Vorpal
19:35:23 <elliott> oklopol: but er waht's the typo
19:35:31 <elliott> it stands for oerjan's punnes terribales
19:35:37 <elliott> it's french you uncultured fuck
19:35:48 <elliott> there's even a fucking ' thing on top of one of them
19:36:55 <oklopol> today i said "jeau deux le shambray de la seminar" to a french guy, and he didn't get me
19:36:55 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: WHAT WAS YOUR SCORE
19:37:05 <oklopol> even though chambre is totally french
19:37:33 <oklopol> "jeau deux" may have been wrong though
19:37:33 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: IT'S LIKE FIVE QUESTIONS
19:38:49 <elliott> "A significant advantage of a one-party state is that it avoids all the arguments that delay progress in a democratic political system."
19:38:54 <elliott> I THINK THATS THE best question ever
19:38:59 <elliott> i just wanna see osmeone say "strong algryy"
19:40:08 <elliott> http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-5.38&soc=-7.64
19:40:55 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/axeswithnames.gif
19:41:00 <elliott> http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/bothaxes.gif
19:41:05 <elliott> Those should explain. The first one moreso.
19:41:12 <elliott> I love how Thatcher is more extreme than Hitler.
19:42:24 <elliott> oklopol: the moral or political
19:42:35 <elliott> if the political, try the moral one it's supra-eesy http://www.moral-politics.com/
19:43:49 <Phantom__Hoover> "We should reduce the causes of crime" vs. "we should eliminate the causes of crime".
19:44:45 <elliott> Gives me the warm fuzzies.
19:45:11 <oklopol> apparently i'm a socialist
19:45:18 <oklopol> interesting, since i'm not
19:45:50 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:45:55 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
19:47:26 <oklopol> i don't know how, but -3 on moral order, 1.5 on moral rules
19:47:49 <oklopol> in any case i'm not sure i agree with all my answers, i might answer differently at different times
19:47:49 <elliott> oklopol: right lcick the graph thing
19:49:24 <elliott> oklopol: give us the ilnk to the page with it on then
19:50:15 <oklopol> yeah i'll send you the POST data through an irc message
19:50:26 <elliott> haha oklopol just got a really weakling version of my results
19:50:57 <Gregor> elliott: Still using my handwriting as a system font?
19:51:00 <oklopol> my political stance is mostly that finland is perfect, let's just keep it this way
19:51:16 <elliott> Gregor: no :( but i regret not doing so
19:51:23 <elliott> oklopol: including the military service thing? :D
19:51:33 <oklopol> oh well some disagreements, tru
19:51:57 <oklopol> i don't get why a country would need an army
19:52:20 <Gregor> http://codu.org/gregor_handwriting.ttf
19:52:29 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: set as system font
19:52:31 <elliott> set as default web page font
19:52:56 <Phantom__Hoover> Gregor, wow, that actually makes my handwriting look controlled.
19:53:32 <elliott> Gregor: do you want me to make my own handwriting font for you to use in return, your computer will look like a three year old wrote it
19:53:37 <Phantom__Hoover> (When I write long passages the words kind of merge into one big mass of slanty lines.
19:53:49 <Gregor> elliott: And my font DOESN'T look like a three-year-old wrote it?
19:54:10 <elliott> Gregor: you have clearly never seen MY handwriting.
19:54:40 <elliott> Gregor: Recently it evolved from "Cool, the lowercase letters take up THE ENTIRE LINE of regular lined paper" to "now I just write the upwards slanting lines, and literally just swiggle the rest"
19:54:51 <elliott> with that and the first/last letters i'm sure everyone can interpret my words
19:55:17 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:55:45 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: same way Gregor did it
19:57:02 <elliott> Gregor: You realise that not doing it by hand == -19872938791237123 nerd points
19:57:14 <Phantom__Hoover> I mean, it's frowned on over here, but I can't imagine anyone *legislating* it.
19:57:22 <elliott> Gregor: I'd need to do all the OpenType stuff to get my insane ligatures (EVERYTHING IS SWIGGLES)
19:57:24 <Gregor> elliott: You realize that making a font ... of handwriting ... by hand makes no sense at all?
19:57:42 <elliott> Gregor: WHAT DO YOU THINK WE DID BEFORE YOURFONTS
19:57:48 <elliott> Gregor: I mean as in manually vectorising etc. :P
19:57:57 <Gregor> Make fonts that were not an accurate conversion of handwriting.
19:58:17 <Phantom__Hoover> Yeah, making a font of my handwriting would lose the melting.
19:58:45 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Not with OpenType!
19:58:51 <elliott> It'll just take twenty years to get every ligature down properly.
19:59:06 <Phantom__Hoover> (The best part is when I scribble stuff out /with nearly the exact same density and angle as my normal writing/.)
19:59:37 <Phantom__Hoover> It also goes halfway down the next line, which doesn't stop me writing on it.
19:59:40 <elliott> sometimes i don't even bother with spaces
19:59:55 <elliott> joined by a bunch of swiggles
20:01:17 <elliott> the purpose of handwriting isn't to be readable or useful imo
20:01:31 <Gregor> oklopol: YOU LIVE IN A HOLE
20:01:54 <elliott> A hole at bedrock! Factually correct.
20:02:10 <elliott> Well you do in Minecraft, dunno what Gregor's on about
20:02:22 <elliott> Your walls aren't flat btw, did someone mine some ore from them or did you decide that flat walls are boring
20:02:27 <Phantom__Hoover> I used to write algebra on one line unless it was literally impossible to make my pen write the symbols.
20:02:50 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: biros have that much more leeway in stuffing squiggles into a line
20:04:19 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: dunno, leaking can be useful for blotting off incorrect reasoning
20:04:25 <elliott> as long as the rest of the proof looks ok
20:04:38 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
20:04:42 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, sure, but then I try to clean it with my fingers.
20:05:08 <Gregor> Everyone: Put the Y combinator in various languages in the topic, each suffixed with ", bitches!"
20:05:22 <Phantom__Hoover> And I end up looking like the Hulk if he'd been an early-20th century X-ray operator.
20:05:45 <elliott> (assume the language can do both)
20:06:13 <Gregor> I don't think it really matters for something this stupid :P
20:06:20 -!- elliott has set topic: λf.(λx.f (x x)) (λx.f (x x)), bitches! | (\f -> let x = f x in x), bitches! | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
20:06:33 <elliott> that's not actually the y combinator.
20:06:37 <elliott> but it's a fixed-point combinator.
20:06:42 <elliott> the y combinator itself requires some newtype wrapping.
20:06:43 <oklopol> knowing the y combinator is a sign of inteligence, Gregor.
20:07:02 <Gregor> Eh, I guess we could tolerate any fixed-point combinator :P
20:07:06 <Gregor> oklopol: ... fascinating?
20:07:25 <oklopol> "<Gregor> I don't think it really matters for something this stupid :P"
20:07:38 <Gregor> oklopol: I meant something as stupid as putting it in the topic.
20:07:50 <elliott> i forget how to do it in underload, or if i ever got it done
20:08:34 <elliott> \f. (\x. f (\y. x x y)) (\x. f (\y. x x y))
20:08:37 <oklopol> well you know if people of inferior intelligecy come here then they'll understand right away that we're better than them so how's that stupid we don't have to listen to their whining.
20:09:14 <oklopol> elliott: erm, isn't i t":^"?
20:09:21 <elliott> oklopol: no, that's mockingbird
20:09:54 <elliott> too lazy so i'll use the abstraction elimination rules
20:10:04 <Gregor> λalchemy.(λmoonspirit.alchemy (moonspirit moonspirit)) (λastralplane.alchemy (astralplane astralplane))
20:10:24 <oklopol> Gregor: ah, that way they REALLY understand our greatness
20:10:33 <oklopol> because we're speaking their language, but better
20:12:00 <elliott> ^ul ()(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*:^)^
20:12:02 <elliott> ^ul ()(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*:^)^S
20:12:07 <elliott> ^ul (!())(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*:^)^S
20:12:49 <oklopol> i don't get what y should even do in ul
20:13:12 -!- Behold has joined.
20:13:17 <elliott> :t \f -> (\x -> f (\y -> x x y)) (\x -> f (\y -> x x y))
20:13:18 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t = t -> t1 -> t2
20:13:18 <lambdabot> Probable cause: `x' is applied to too many arguments
20:13:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:13:35 <elliott> oklopol: it's ∀a.∀b.((a→b)→(a→b))→(a→b).
20:13:49 <elliott> let rec fix f x = f (fix f) x (* note the extra x *)
20:13:49 <elliott> let factabs fact = function (* factabs now has extra level of lambda abstraction *)
20:13:52 <quintopia> what do i do if apt-get runs out of disk in the middle of an install? would it break my packages to just kill it?
20:13:52 <elliott> let _ = (fix factabs) 5 (* evaluates to "120" *)
20:14:05 <elliott> quintopia: you can probably fit it with dpkg --reconfigure.
20:14:06 <ais523> quintopia: it won't break it in an unfixable way
20:14:23 <ais523> it can leave the packages temporarily broken until dependencies and configurations are fixed, though
20:14:24 <Gregor> quintopia: What they said :P
20:14:26 <elliott> ais523: can't seem to work out applicative-order Y in underload
20:14:31 <elliott> thought i had it but i made a mistaek
20:14:39 <elliott> \f. (\x. f (\y. x x y)) (\x. f (\y. x x y)) ;; this 'un
20:14:39 <ais523> I once had to shut my computer off in the middle of a distro upgrade
20:14:50 <ais523> and actually recovered from that, although I did have to use the command prompt to do so
20:14:55 <ais523> because the GUI wasn't working
20:15:22 <ais523> elliott: I probably used Windows for longer than I've used Linux
20:15:42 <ais523> remember that I'm older than you
20:15:47 <ais523> Linux hadn't really caught on when I was a child
20:15:54 <elliott> ais523: yeah well, when i'm older than you
20:16:00 <elliott> i'm gonna learn all the linuxes.
20:16:20 <oklopol> what, ais523 has used windows? lol what a noob
20:16:37 <elliott> ^ul (( { \x. f (\y. x x y) } )~a~*)
20:17:00 <quintopia> ais523: how do i unlock the dpkg directory so i can run it again?
20:17:20 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:17:32 <Sgeo> http://kawagner.blogspot.com/2007/02/why-monads-are-evil.html
20:17:37 <Sgeo> Is this person some kind of moron?
20:17:45 <Sgeo> "It can hurt readability: A concrete monad is choosen by the return type of a function. For example a simple 'x <- get' can switch the rest of the do-block into 'state-monad'-land."
20:17:46 <ais523> quintopia: there's a lockfile somewhere, I'm not sure where offhand though
20:17:51 <ais523> oklopol: I've even used DOS
20:17:55 <ais523> from before Windows caught on
20:17:58 <elliott> ^ul (hello!)(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*)^S
20:18:05 <elliott> ^ul (hello!)(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*)^^S
20:18:09 <elliott> ^ul (())(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*)^S
20:18:12 <Sgeo> If I understand correctly, that shouldn't be properly typed in any monad..ic thingy that isn't State
20:18:13 <elliott> ^ul (())(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*)^^S
20:18:16 <elliott> ^ul (())(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*)S
20:18:19 <elliott> ^ul ((a))(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*)S
20:18:23 <elliott> ^ul ((abc))(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*)S
20:18:30 <elliott> that doesn't seem right at all!
20:18:35 <elliott> ^ul ((abc))(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*)^S
20:18:38 <elliott> ^ul ((abc))(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*)^^S
20:19:01 <elliott> exactly what i came up with :/
20:19:36 <quintopia> ais523: i found the file. how to unlock it? (no process is using it)
20:19:47 <ais523> is it empty? if so, just delete it
20:20:30 <elliott> ^ul ()(!())(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*:^)^
20:20:37 <elliott> !underload ()(!())(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*:^)^S
20:21:04 <elliott> ais523: just wait 'til relief is done!
20:21:08 <Gregor> I honestly have no friggin' clue why it's had such trouble remaining connected recently.
20:21:19 <Gregor> Waitwtf, it IS connected.
20:21:31 <Gregor> It's just not in #esoteric.
20:21:48 -!- HackEgo has joined.
20:23:26 <Gregor> OK, wtf, once again, EgoBot is connected but didn't join.
20:23:41 <Sgeo> Maybe I should try to learn category theory
20:23:58 <ais523> not fully, but enough to understand the basics
20:24:13 <Sgeo> Where should I start? Is Wikipedia readable on this subject?
20:24:18 <ais523> (mention category theory anywhere, and all the computer scientists in the audience immediately start gushing)
20:24:25 <elliott> yeah even my stupid friend can do category theory ;D
20:24:29 <ais523> and I'm not sure; I haven't looked at the Wikipedia article
20:24:36 <elliott> ais523: unless they're rabid haskell haters
20:24:45 <ais523> oh, the connection with Haskell I never really get at all
20:24:48 <elliott> arguably they don't count as computer scientists :>
20:24:55 -!- EgoBot has joined.
20:24:57 <ais523> I can't connect Haskell concepts to the mathematical concepts they're meant to be based on
20:25:12 <elliott> !underload ()(!())(((~:^~^)~a~*~^)~a~*:^)^S
20:25:13 <oklopol> LOL what a noob. i can't either, even though oerjan explained it once
20:25:15 <ais523> and nor can most other computer scientists, by the look of it
20:25:36 <elliott> i think it just comes from expecting something deeper than it is.
20:25:45 <Gregor> WTF TRAC IS ONCE AGAIN PEGGED AT 99% CPU
20:25:48 <Gregor> trac: it is a pile of garbage.
20:25:53 <oklopol> elliott: you get the connection?
20:25:58 <Phantom__Hoover> <elliott> yeah even my stupid friend can do category theory ;D
20:26:05 <ais523> Gregor: MediaWiki does that too
20:26:06 <elliott> oklopol: close enough anyway ;D
20:26:10 <elliott> Gregor: it's because of you
20:26:13 <oklopol> what's the definition of a category?
20:26:13 <elliott> it knows it's on your server
20:26:40 <elliott> oklopol: ffff a category is a bunch of objects and morphisms and fff dude
20:26:43 <elliott> it's been like 30 hours since i slept
20:26:52 <elliott> there's definitely ob in there
20:26:56 <elliott> ob everywhere in that bitch
20:27:17 <oklopol> well it's just a multi graph with a composition operator
20:28:28 <oklopol> that's a nice description, but i'm not sure it's a great definition
20:28:53 <elliott> oklopol: a category is somethign wit ha lot of pages in it
20:30:50 <Gregor> elliott: It's always slow on first load.
20:31:00 <elliott> Gregor: egobot is still going.
20:31:07 <elliott> admittedly it is likely inflooping
20:31:08 <Gregor> elliott: It's always slow on first load.
20:32:07 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: What day is it kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen?
20:33:05 -!- augur has joined.
20:33:56 <Gregor> dd if=/dev/zero of=bigfile bs=1M count=10 conv=fdatasync # omfg this has been running for over a minute *sobs*
20:34:23 <elliott> Gregor: So prgmr, quite shitty eh
20:34:33 <Gregor> Apparently they've decided to be, yes.
20:35:21 <elliott> <blast_hardcheese> This is kind of an open-ended question to whoever wants to respond, I'm trying to figure out the best way to manage this situation I'm in:
20:35:26 <elliott> Gregor: contact them and get SO MANY REFUNDS
20:35:29 <Gregor> wtf, is this some kind of joke, it's still running.
20:35:29 <Gregor> I'M TRYING TO WRITE A 10M FILE OF ZEROS
20:35:29 <Gregor> 10485760 bytes (10 MB) copied, 171.363 s, 61.2 kB/s
20:35:46 <elliott> That's slower than my internet connection at the worst of times.
20:36:07 <elliott> Gregor: They've migrated to Cloud(TM)-based storage!
20:36:11 <elliott> All the storage is in Zimbabwe now.
20:36:33 <elliott> Gregor: no, they just have all the libraries
20:36:38 <elliott> they're loaded every single time a process is spawned
20:36:41 <elliott> by downloading from <libname>.so
20:39:58 <elliott> Gregor: gnu are bidding on libc.so themselves
20:41:06 <ais523> now I wonder if libc.so actually exists
20:41:26 <ais523> "This TLD has no whois server."
20:41:30 <ais523> short and to the point
20:41:40 <elliott> Gregor is in the auction for it
20:41:47 <elliott> ais523: it's a closed auction, he signed up for libc.so
20:42:09 <elliott> ais523: .so = Somalia, they've only recently had something that could call itself enough of a government to get their tld activated :)
20:43:08 <elliott> from this we can conclude that the soviet union still exists
20:45:07 <Gregor> ais523: Taking donations to help me buy it! :P
20:45:17 <ais523> what sort of auction is it?
20:45:20 <Gregor> ais523: The benefit of donating is a snazzy <libc symbol>@libc.so email address!
20:45:33 <Gregor> ais523: Closed, anonymous, proxy bidding allowed.
20:45:44 <ais523> do you know each other's bids?
20:46:19 <ais523> I said that before you posted your reply, or at least before it arrived at my client
20:46:27 <Gregor> Yeah, I'm lagged all to hell X_X
20:46:56 <elliott> Gregor: What's the current bid, or has it not started yet :P
20:47:01 <Gregor> Mind you, the auction hasn't opened yet, I'm trying to raise capital before it does.
20:47:10 <elliott> also, holy crap, this thing is gonna make somalia so much money :D
20:47:33 <Gregor> elliott: Don't say that, I want it to sell for an amount I can buy it for X-P
20:47:40 <elliott> I mean the domain shit in general
20:47:40 <ais523> the sale of .tv gave a fortune to each Tuvaluan citizen
20:47:47 <elliott> Gregor: you realise that one corporate bidder means you're screwed?
20:48:07 <Gregor> elliott: My only prayer there is the fact that it really has no corporate value.
20:48:13 <elliott> ais523: I believe .tk made a lot of money/infrastructure for Tokelau too, but that was .tk advertising, so maybe exaggerating
20:48:22 <elliott> Gregor: We live in Web 2.0.
20:48:29 <Gregor> elliott: And? It still has no corporate value.
20:48:31 <ais523> I've never even heard of Tokelau
20:48:35 <elliott> Gregor: It has marketing value.
20:48:41 <Gregor> elliott: No, it doesn't.
20:48:54 <elliott> ais523: they're the island that decided that they really didn't need a cctld, so it's ok if a company gave them away for free
20:48:54 <Gregor> Wait, are we referring to libc.so or .so in general? :P
20:49:03 <Gregor> Yeah, it has zero marketing value.
20:49:03 <elliott> Gregor: It has marketing value IN THE MINDS OF IDIOTIC IDIOTS.
20:49:11 <elliott> Gregor: This is where you should assume the worst in people.
20:49:31 <ais523> well, hope those idiotic idiots don't find it until later
20:49:36 <ais523> then you can sell it to them for a fortune
20:49:47 <elliott> why would yo uever sell that!
20:49:54 <ais523> for a fortune, obviously
20:49:56 <Gregor> If I get it, I wouldn't sell it for less than six digits :P
20:49:59 <elliott> i like dynamic libraries, because i'm lame
20:50:03 <ais523> then you can buy it back again after their idiotic company collapses
20:50:09 <elliott> Gregor: I'll give you $99,999
20:50:27 <Gregor> elliott: TOO FEW DIGITS and also I didn't say I'd sell it for ANY six-digit value.
20:50:39 <elliott> Gregor: Too few digits on purpose :P
20:50:46 <elliott> I did not believe and do not believe that you value it more than $99,999
20:50:47 <Gregor> But anyway, I honestly think I have a so-so chance of getting it at this point.
20:50:58 <elliott> Well, you know, optimism is good for you.
20:51:08 <elliott> Even hopeless, naive optimisim.jf
20:51:24 -!- marian_30 has joined.
20:51:38 <ais523> Gregor: it depends on if everyone else is also there just on the offchance
20:52:01 <Gregor> elliott: No, seriously, it's not naive at all. We're talking about a domain name that has nerd cred but absolutely no commercial value, with thirteen bidders in a closed auction, and with only people who happened to notice its availability in a brief window.
20:52:12 <Gregor> In other words, we're talking about the intersection of domain name nerds and Unix nerds.
20:52:20 <elliott> marian_30: We're NEONEOpagans.
20:52:31 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: that's a strange statement to make to someone who hasn't even spoken yet
20:52:32 <elliott> Gregor: I bet SCO are bidding
20:52:37 <Gregor> elliott: Dude, you're still at neoneo? I've evolved to neoneoneo.
20:52:48 <elliott> I'm at neo^\omega pagans of the iag neo om
20:52:53 <ais523> I think someone bid $8 or some similarly small amount for all SCO's assets
20:52:54 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: YOU RUIN OUR FUNSTERS
20:53:15 <elliott> 10:41:29 <ais523> I agree that there's no chance of it taking over the world
20:53:15 <elliott> 10:41:46 <ais523> I think there's a marginal chance it'll lead to Wolfram being booted from the internet, but for unrelated reasons
20:53:16 <elliott> 10:41:53 <ehird> ais523: huh?
20:53:16 <elliott> 10:42:11 <ais523> you'll see later on, if they still have the feature I'm thinking of
20:53:20 <elliott> ais523: what was that feature? (context: W|A)
20:53:36 <ais523> oh, portscanning arbitrary sites that were entered into its = box
20:53:59 <Gregor> Honestly, think about it, what benefit does the domain name libc.so confer to e.g. SCO? Or even a legitimate company? Nobody's going to type libc.so into their web browser and go "WOW I SHOULD BUY THIS UNIX LOL"
20:54:15 <elliott> Gregor: MARKETING IS NOT BASED ON THE PRINCIPELS OF LOGIC AND SEN
20:54:19 -!- marian_30 has left (?).
20:54:35 <Gregor> elliott: But it IS based on money, and nobody's going to sink money into a completely valueless proposition!
20:54:44 <elliott> Gregor: Apart from IDIOTS.
20:54:59 <elliott> Gregor: And who are the kind of people who would bid on an auction for libc.so?
20:55:10 <Gregor> The intersection of domain name nerds and Unix nerds.
20:55:19 <Gregor> Which is to say, nerds.
20:55:21 <Gregor> Which is to say, people who either have little or a LOT of money :P
20:55:34 <elliott> Gregor: YOU KEEP IGNORING THE _IDIOTS_
20:55:48 <Gregor> elliott: Idiots don't know what libc.so is!
20:55:52 <elliott> I don't think Gregor has a little amount of money :P
20:56:09 <elliott> <Gregor> elliott: Idiots don't know what libc.so is!
20:56:40 <Gregor> OK, whotf is "APT Guy"
20:57:15 <elliott> Gregor: He is known only as APT GUY
20:57:23 <elliott> THE MEANING OF HIS CRYPTIC NAME IS UNKNOWN
20:57:36 <Phantom__Hoover> He has a name but it's trivially Googleable and he goes to the same school as me, so...
20:58:09 <elliott> Gahh, I wish I could have a machine where the whole Linux audio/video stack was NOT horribly out-of-sync.
20:58:23 <elliott> How does PulseAudio even MANAGE to be so TERRIBLE?
21:01:12 <Phantom__Hoover> Gregor, APT Guy is a guy at my school who is basically a script kiddie who convinced the Ubuntu guys to let him have fairly high-level APT access.
21:01:46 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
21:02:02 <elliott> I still don't know wtf pat access is
21:02:33 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, I think it means he can apply other people's patches.
21:03:52 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:04:17 <Phantom__Hoover> He's also a Pythonista, but I wasn't able to use him to save cpressey.
21:05:38 -!- Phantom__Hoover has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
21:06:31 <zzo38> Do you know the Society of Creative Anachronism? I know of one of their games.
21:08:06 <zzo38> A game was made for them, called Ludus Equitum. It can be played with a normal chess set and some dice.
21:08:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: unignoe zzo38 hesz fun
21:08:51 <zzo38> Or about yesserpc?
21:08:52 <elliott> whatsz the prblem with that i ask!!
21:10:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
21:10:29 <zzo38> Zwaarddijk: You roll the dice 2d6 and the number that comes up tells you what kind of pieces you are allowed to move. You can make up to 2 moves in one turn. Win by capturing opponent's king.
21:11:52 <Zwaarddijk> iirc chess originally had some rule like that?
21:12:15 <zzo38> R=King, Q=Queen, L=Laurel, P=Pelican, E=Knight, M=Fighter, A=Squire. (Use the rook for P, bishop for L, pawn for M.) In this notation, FEN setup is "1eerqlp1/1mmmmmm1/8/8/8/8/1MMMMMM1/1PLQREE1".
21:12:31 <zzo38> Zwaarddijk: Some old chess game did have dice. This is a bit different though.
21:12:57 <Zwaarddijk> zzo38: so it has fairy chess pieces too?
21:13:35 -!- Behold has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:13:43 <Zwaarddijk> it'd be interesting to make something more go-like with dice
21:14:29 <Zwaarddijk> well, like, only one kind of piece, but such that the wrong number of stones n the board can turn out fatal if you have certain structures
21:14:37 <Zwaarddijk> and the wrong number comes up on the dice
21:14:45 <Zwaarddijk> but with another number can turn out v. good
21:15:25 <ais523> that would be hard to manage, I think, but probably interesting if it could be managed
21:15:52 <ais523> perhaps go where you roll a d6, your new stone has to be next to (the result - 1) other stones, color doesn't matter
21:16:22 <elliott> i just copied somethign to the licpboard
21:16:27 <elliott> tbabbed over to my browser
21:16:30 <elliott> almost fell asleep half way
21:16:32 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:16:36 <Phantom_Hoover> http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_li0vnjLRLg1qh25w2o1_500.jpg
21:16:38 <elliott> and thought me going to google something was a dream
21:17:12 <ais523> elliott: for what reason are you awake?
21:17:19 <zzo38> The Q and L move one space diagonal, P one space orthogonal, M like the pawn in chess but no double step, R like king in chess (but is permitted to be in check), A the same. M promotes only to A. The numbers on dice you can move: 1=RQ 2=RQ 3=PL 4=M 5=EA 6=EA.
21:17:20 <ais523> inability to sleep? being busy?
21:17:32 <elliott> ais523: according to stephen wolfram, it is 9 am in 12 hours
21:17:37 <elliott> as such, I will be going to bed within the hour
21:17:51 <elliott> in the anticipation that I will sleep for approximately that time, and wake up at a sane time
21:17:57 <zzo38> ais523,Zwaarddijk: Yes that is an idea about Go with dice.
21:18:00 <ais523> 12's a bit low, I think
21:18:16 <elliott> ais523: 14 is my record, and only once
21:18:22 <elliott> 12 is what I get in cases of extreme sleep deprivation
21:18:33 <ais523> the 23 was pretty extreme for me
21:18:34 <elliott> 11 in moderate sleep deprivation
21:19:06 <Zwaarddijk> after two weeks of extremely dutiful living, I slept 23 hours one day
21:19:50 <ais523> what do you mean by "dutiful" in this context?
21:20:03 <Zwaarddijk> fulfilling duties to various associations
21:20:21 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:20:35 <ais523> I think that was a little lost-in-translation without the clarification
21:20:37 <Zwaarddijk> viz. the association of comp.sci students at åbo akademi, and the student orchestra
21:20:50 <Zwaarddijk> yes, it was not meant to be losslessly translated
21:21:13 <Zwaarddijk> it was in fact an expression that wouldn't've worked in Swedish. point was: doing what you're supposed to isn't always smart
21:21:48 <ais523> normally I try to reduce the number of obligations I have in such cases
21:22:21 <Zwaarddijk> and i was essentially the chairman of the orchestra
21:22:38 <zzo38> I have written a ZRF implementation of this SCA game. http://www.chessvariants.org/membergraphics/MZludusequitum/LudusEquitum.zrf (Zillions is not particularly good software, but way better than nothing.)
21:23:17 -!- augur has joined.
21:24:00 -!- cheater- has joined.
21:24:03 <zzo38> What music do you play in that orchestra?
21:24:22 <Zwaarddijk> so essentially, my days during two weeks consisted of: waking up, getting a cup of coffee, running errands, getting cups of coffee in between errands, eating something, going to comp.sci.association ball-week events, coming home in the middle of the night, ...
21:25:02 <Zwaarddijk> big band jazz, some funk, some rockabilly, some modern stuff - the annual concerto usually has some theme like "80s music" or "latin american stuff" or "sweden" or "secret agents"
21:26:05 <Zwaarddijk> I play the jazz guitar - but I've not played there for about a year. also, my musical interests have veered into microtonality a bit too far to be compatible with any orchestra
21:26:10 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:26:17 <ais523> in that most instruments can't play it
21:26:28 <ais523> and the ones that can, need people so insanely skilled to play them that it's not worth it?
21:26:29 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> ais523: according to stephen wolfram, it is 9 am in 12 hours
21:26:52 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: really need to sleep).
21:27:27 <Zwaarddijk> ais523: nah, trombones, trumpets and fretless string instruments do microtones trivially
21:27:42 <Zwaarddijk> saxophones I think are a bit less trivial, but still doable without too much effort
21:27:47 <zzo38> I have also worked with some non-12TET music, although I did them by computer.
21:28:02 <Zwaarddijk> so have I, but I got bored with doing them by computer
21:28:25 <Zwaarddijk> (I do sometimes still use a midi keyboard for it, but it feels weird not to have the octave-pattern repeat)
21:28:41 <zzo38> That is an idea too. Then you can readd frets to the notes that you want it to play instead?
21:28:54 <zzo38> And also retune the strings for the new notes.
21:29:09 <Zwaarddijk> zzo38: well, I could tie some thing there, sure, but I jsut leave it fretless and play by ear
21:30:38 <oklopol> Zwaarddijk: me 2, that's why
21:30:55 <quintopia> why would df show the used and available 1k blocks not adding up to the total size?
21:31:05 <quintopia> i've deleted a bunch of packages, but available blocks is still 0
21:32:16 <Zwaarddijk> ict:n kellarissahan asuu niitä jonkun verran
21:32:29 <oklopol> olin asteriski, mutta knnyin matemaatikoksi
21:32:32 <Zwaarddijk> (sorrry for the moon-language, people)
21:32:49 <oklopol> en harrasta opiskelijaelm, asun tyhuoneessani
21:33:32 <Zwaarddijk> just niin. tutkija vai onko sulla jopa opettajan virka?
21:33:54 <oklopol> "*jopa* opettajan virka" :D
21:34:06 <ais523> I fear I've just witnessed a pun I don't get at all
21:34:17 <oklopol> ja opiskelija, en ole viel maisteri.
21:34:58 <oklopol> ais523: no not really, he just asked me if i'm a researcher, or even a teacher. which i disagreed with since being a teacher is a lesser job.
21:35:15 <ais523> (the amusing thing is, most channels would just go "this is an English-speaking channel" in that situation; here, a) nobody cares, and b) nobody could truthfully make that statement anyway)
21:35:16 <Zwaarddijk> teachers have better contracts, though
21:35:17 <oklopol> Zwaarddijk: itse aloitin 2008
21:35:32 <oklopol> gradun sain valmiiksi viime viikolla
21:35:35 <Zwaarddijk> ensimmäiset kaksi vuotta opiskelin toki venäjää
21:35:38 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:35:51 <Zwaarddijk> ja sen jälkeen oon ollut pari vuotta nokian tehtaan lattialla
21:36:34 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:37:07 <Zwaarddijk> tällä hetkellä näyttää siitä että yritän selittää (ja ymmärtää) miksi relativisointi ei auta
21:38:10 <Zwaarddijk> on uh Ion Petre, ÅA:n tietojenkäsittelytieteen proffa
21:38:30 <oklopol> ai A:lla on tietojenksittelytiedett :D
21:38:53 <Zwaarddijk> ennen vanhaan - sillon kun mä aloitin se oli "informationsbehandling2
21:39:53 <oklopol> tulee melkein englantia puhuttua enemmn livenkin
21:39:58 <oklopol> kun tiss kaikki ulkomaalaisia
21:40:18 <oklopol> no, paitsi muut opiskelijat, mutta en ky kauheasti luennoilla
21:40:21 <Zwaarddijk> miten matematiikassa saa kuvakielistä gradua aikaan?
21:40:35 <oklopol> siten ett kuvakielet ovat formaalien kielten alalaji
21:40:53 <oklopol> meill tehdn matematiikan laitoksella aika paljon teoreettista cs:
21:41:01 <Zwaarddijk> mite "kuvakieli" tarkkaan on englanniksi?
21:41:28 <oklopol> wikipedian artikkeli on aika <3
21:41:47 <Zwaarddijk> ok, en tiennytkään että semmosta käsitettä on olemassakaan
21:42:09 <oklopol> sehn siin hienoa onkin kun avoimet ongelmat on ihan vitun helppoja ratkoa kun niit on 5 ihmist yrittnyt
21:42:18 <Deewiant> What links here kertoo kuinka moni tietää
21:42:49 <oklopol> kannattaa mys huomata wp:n artikkelin referenssilista, hofl ja sitten joku aivan vitun random sivu :D
21:43:05 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: munkin pitäisi löytää semmosta tieteen ala
21:43:44 <oklopol> Zwaarddijk: no eiks se P?=NP ole juuri sellainen
21:45:09 <Deewiant> The 't' in 'letters' is double
21:46:33 <Zwaarddijk> what's worst though, si the graphical resemblance between w and vv
21:46:35 <oklopol> Zwaarddijk: taking any math courses atm by any chance? :D
21:46:51 <Zwaarddijk> or like, one that I should've gotten done years ago
21:47:05 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:47:43 <oklopol> a is the university Zwaarddijk is in
21:48:10 <oklopol> the buildings are hundreds of meters away from each other
21:48:27 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: it's the abbrev
21:48:27 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: except the comp.sci parts and the biochemistry parts
21:48:53 <Zwaarddijk> it's like I dunno, a white and a darkie marrying :|
21:49:01 <oklopol> you lesser universities should stay out of wait actually even utu sucks except for the math dep
21:49:31 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: isn't even a finnish letter, a is the swedish university.
21:49:45 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Åbo Akademi, it's a Finnish/Swedish place.
21:50:00 <Zwaarddijk> so uh, what's the lowest Erdös number in UTU?
21:50:16 <Zwaarddijk> Phantom_Hoover: we've got nothing to do with Sweden
21:50:25 <Zwaarddijk> we Finnish Swedes hate on it even more than the Finns
21:50:32 <fizzie> Yet you speak their language.
21:50:45 <Zwaarddijk> sort of. but they speak a diluted terrible version :|
21:50:53 <fizzie> The ones I've heard mix in Finnish words about half the time.
21:51:40 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: I think ÅA has at least 4 as the lowest, but it might be 3, not entirely sure.
21:52:43 <oklopol> all i know is your math courses are rather uninteresting, and therefore utu > a
21:53:02 <fizzie> I know Erkki Oja from our place has an Erdös number of at most 4 (according to some online thing).
21:53:05 -!- leBMD has joined.
21:53:12 <fizzie> (And he's not a mathematician at all.)
21:53:23 <fizzie> (Mine's 6 now via that path.)
21:53:25 <Zwaarddijk> åa's comp.sci. department sucks pretty bad as well
21:53:34 <Zwaarddijk> they were going to arrange a course on complexity this spring
21:53:40 <oklopol> fizzie: link? i can check the ones that could be small here
21:53:45 <Zwaarddijk> but had only one professor knowledgeable enough about it
21:54:12 <oklopol> Zwaarddijk: we currently have a course on that stuff
21:54:13 <fizzie> oklopol: I think I used http://www.ams.org/mathscinet/collaborationDistance.html -- it has the "Use Erdös" button there.
21:54:53 <oklopol> it's pretty simple stuff tho
21:55:27 <Zwaarddijk> well, I figure it is - in the reading up on teh state of complexity theory for my kandi, I've been able to predict stuff tht's coming up in the book about a chapter ahead of it
21:55:36 <oklopol> my employer has 3, so i'll have 4 soon prolly
21:55:48 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: bachelor's degree
21:56:57 <oklopol> Zwaarddijk: what are you reading?
21:57:32 <oklopol> the course is simple because we're just doing the basic np completeness stuff, complexity theory itself is rather vast already
21:57:37 -!- leBMD has quit (Client Quit).
21:57:39 <oklopol> have you read complexity theory companion?
21:58:16 <Zwaarddijk> Papadimitriou's Computational Complexity
21:58:37 <oklopol> the leader of the math dep has erdos number 2
21:59:01 <oklopol> well that's really basic stuff yeah
22:00:04 <oklopol> 4 is better than fizzie's already
22:00:57 -!- Behold has joined.
22:01:15 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
22:01:17 <oklopol> the erdos distance is a bit weird tho, i'd prefer publishing alone
22:01:22 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:02:44 <oklopol> he said it 10 lines ago or something
22:04:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:05:24 <Gregor> Dude, mines is less than 6.
22:05:40 <fizzie> 6 is the upper bound I know, MathSciNet's thing doesn't really do computer science and related fields so there might be a less circuitous path.
22:06:23 <oklopol> erm, i don't even have an erdos number yet tho
22:06:39 <oklopol> but 4 is likely to happen soonish
22:07:02 <oklopol> but if Gregor is 4, then that's less than nothing
22:07:35 <Gregor> Me -> Jan Vitek -> Nir Shavit -> Michael E. Saks -> Erdos
22:09:00 <fizzie> The path I know goes me -> Kurimo, Mikko -> Oja, Erkki -> Cooper, Leon N. -> Zeitouni, Ofer -> Diaconis, Persi W. -> Erdös.
22:10:36 <Deewiant> Me -> Heljanko, Keijo -> Niemelä, Ilkka N. F. -> Przymusiński, Teodor C. -> Rudin, Mary Ellen -> Erdős
22:13:40 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I cannot be bothered to work out the right compose sequence.
22:20:53 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:21:03 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:21:04 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:33:50 <pikhq> #esoteric should write an academic paper together.
22:34:26 <Sgeo> I feel as though I'd be unable to contribute
22:34:35 <Sgeo> Although I would like to try
22:35:39 <pikhq> Your number one problem is taking your dad's word for everything.
22:35:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I'd suggest you fix the typos but oerjan has more experience than you at that.
22:35:58 <pikhq> Your number *two* problem is being convinced that you have no intellectual ability.
22:37:11 <Sgeo> I'm not convinced I have no intellectual ability. Just that it is firmly sandwiched with #esoteric absolutely above, and RL people absolutely below
22:37:44 <oklopol> i'm real i even have a skin
22:37:45 <pikhq> You're just noticing that some of us are *absurdly* good. :P
22:38:12 <pikhq> (I do not include myself in the set of "absurdly good". Perhaps "pretty damn smart".)
22:39:57 <pikhq> (my procrastination makes "absurdly good"... Not quite applicable.)
22:41:30 <oklopol> i used to think i was smart but i don't think i think that anymore
22:43:19 <pikhq> I think I'm smart, and that fucking disappoints me.
22:43:27 <oklopol> i'm certainly good at some stuff, but i think it's more because i actively train those abilities hours and hours every day
22:43:36 <pikhq> I should *not* be smart. But holy fucking *hell* almost everyone is completely and utterly STUPID.
22:44:00 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
22:44:05 <pikhq> So I suppose it's not that I consider myself smart as it is that I consider a good 9/10ths of humanity depressingly retarded.
22:44:35 <oklopol> hmm well i suppose that's close to my viewpoint
22:47:15 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:49:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:02:46 <pikhq> *Dang* profile-guided optimisation can make an absurd difference.
23:02:59 * pikhq is running bsnes, accuracy profile, in realtime.
23:09:00 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:11:31 -!- copumpkin has joined.
23:15:21 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:25:34 -!- calamari has joined.
23:28:42 <augur> oklopol: do you read sate?
23:32:50 <Zwaarddijk> hey, do multi-tape automata for weaker architectures than the turing machine gain anything compared to single-tape versions?
23:36:43 <ais523> it can even make them TC in some cases
23:36:50 <ais523> especially if you can construct a Minsky machine counter out of one tape
23:40:12 <Zwaarddijk> right, I kind of guessed that a pushdown automaton probably can be made TC
23:41:29 <quintopia> how to kill a process that kill -STOP and kill -KILL won't kill?
23:53:46 <ais523> quintopia: kill its parents
23:54:03 <ais523> it's probably a zombie, waiting to be reached
23:54:09 <ais523> kill -STOP never kills anything, btw
00:00:12 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:01:02 -!- wareya has joined.
00:02:01 <pikhq> quintopia: If you're desperate, kill init.
00:02:25 <Sgeo> I know what an isomorphism is. I think.
00:02:35 <Sgeo> But that's as far as I got
00:02:42 <pikhq> (note: may cause kernel panic on a certain prevalent Unixoid)
00:03:28 <Sgeo> Wait, my understanding seems a bit.. trivial. For a function to be an isomorphism (I'm sure function isn't the right word), it just has to avoid destroying information (and possibly creating, I'm not sure)?
00:05:24 <Sgeo> What does it do on Unixoids that aren't that certain prevalent Unixoid?
00:06:39 <pikhq> Essentially, reboot.
00:10:44 <ais523> alt-sysrq-i kills init without crashing the kernel on Linux
00:10:55 <ais523> admittedly, it makes it a bit hard to use your system after that
00:11:36 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, but that's not sending SIG_TERM, is it?
00:12:11 <ais523> it's "kill all processes", I'm not sure if it actually sends sigkill or not
00:19:49 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | wjat.
00:23:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:48:56 <pikhq> Huh. In the UK, technically the Crown in Right of the UK actually owns all land, and everyone else leases.
00:49:57 <pikhq> Most such land holdings are made effectively eternal, can be passed on, sold, etc., only going back to the Crown in case of death with no heirs or will.
00:50:44 <Sgeo> What happens in the US in the same situation?
00:51:28 <Sgeo> Also, response to my isomorphism question
00:55:13 <Sgeo> "Building on Kummer's work and using sophisticated computer studies, other mathematicians were able to prove the conjecture for all odd primes up to four million."
00:55:30 <Sgeo> Uh.... that seems somewhat redundant
00:55:49 <pikhq> Depends on the state, it seems.
00:57:07 <pikhq> However, in *most* states, the state government will then become owner of the estate.
00:58:20 <Sgeo> Stupid PDF reader
00:59:05 <Sgeo> Some PDF I now have about category theory says that many of its examples willnot be useful to thoe not aquainted with undergraduate level real analysis and modern algbra
00:59:10 <Sgeo> Hmm, what's "modern" algebra?
00:59:30 <Gregor> Sgeo: Partial differential equations.
00:59:48 <Sgeo> I've... seen partial derivatives
00:59:48 <pikhq> Modern algebra, of course, deals with various abstract algebras.
01:00:10 <pikhq> (as opposed to the single elementary algebra you are no doubt familiar with)
01:02:12 <Sgeo> I know a little about sets
01:03:58 <Sgeo> I'm going to put this down for a long while, I think
01:04:29 <pikhq> BTW, you'd be having no problem with this if you were in a real CS program.
01:06:23 <Sgeo> Khan Academy has a lot of stuff about linear algebra
01:09:25 <Sgeo> Also has stuff on Differential Equations
01:09:49 -!- cheater00 has joined.
01:12:44 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
01:13:34 -!- pumpkin has joined.
01:17:20 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:20:10 <Sgeo> Solutions to differential equations are funtions or classes of functions, not numbers
01:20:15 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> zzz.....
01:21:10 * pikhq beats Sgeo with calculus
01:21:21 <Slereah> Could be a constant function
01:21:53 <Sgeo> Will this differential equation stuff get into material that's not intutive given a bit of thought?
01:22:55 <Sgeo> Will there be trigonometry? I hate trig
01:27:09 <Sgeo> The playlist is only about ordinary differential equations
01:36:03 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
01:41:10 <Gregor> Partial differential equations is where math started ignoring our safe word and things got a bit unpleasant.
01:54:09 <pumpkin> really busy these days, which is why I haven't been on IRC much :)
01:54:16 <pumpkin> a couple of days from now maybe?
01:54:30 <pumpkin> well, big work deadline and my gf was visiting for past week too
01:54:41 <pumpkin> so no time to fart around at work and then wasn't on my computer much in the evenings :)
01:54:53 <augur> this is why i dont have a boyfriend
01:55:00 <augur> i'd have no time for fun stuff
02:01:58 -!- wareya has quit (Quit: leaving).
02:22:54 <pikhq> I'll be damned. When I wasn't looking, link-time optimisation got usable.
02:24:10 <pikhq> GCC 4.6 (currently in development) has it non-buggy, and GNU ld 2.21.51 supports linker plugins for it to work without having to deal with a somewhat buggy linker.
02:24:19 -!- copumpkin has joined.
02:24:58 -!- pumpkin has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
02:25:17 -!- wareya has joined.
02:25:26 <pikhq> This *also* means that building with clang or gcc-llvm will have LTO work much better.
02:26:44 <Sgeo> Why would anyone use GHC under Wine?
02:26:52 <Sgeo> Wanting to compile Windows Haskell programs?
02:27:24 <pikhq> I do believe that is the use-case desired, yes.
02:31:27 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
03:11:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
03:45:11 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando).
03:59:25 <Sgeo> Dear Khan Academy: When I click on Excersizes, could you please not assume that everyone is at the Addition 1 level?
03:59:42 <pikhq> What, too hard for you? :P
04:00:51 <Zwaarddijk> that states that educational websites have to be stupid
04:01:32 <Zwaarddijk> their computer support staff probably gets bonuses depending on who comes up with the stupidest design idea for the uni website
04:02:05 <pikhq> I'm convinced that universities hire their dropouts to do websites.
04:02:59 <Zwaarddijk> fun thing at my uni - most departments' websites are easiest to find through a link chain going like main page->faculties->departments->
04:03:22 <Zwaarddijk> and you end back at the bottom of a ->faculties->departments thingy *again*
04:03:52 <Zwaarddijk> of course you should be clever enough to remember the url to the bottom of that last hierarchy, but ...
04:04:06 <Zwaarddijk> it happens that I would want to open that when I'm at a computer where my bookmarks are not present
04:04:37 <Zwaarddijk> there's a bunch of other similar doubled hierarchies in some other places (but none of those are universally broken - some parts of the portal get that right)
04:05:49 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
04:07:08 -!- pingveno has joined.
04:10:22 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
04:30:55 -!- copumpkin has joined.
04:31:06 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
04:31:33 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
04:41:18 <Lymia> How exactly does terminfo work anyways.
04:42:57 <Sgeo> I really don't feel like cleaning up dog vomit right now.
04:55:56 -!- p_q has joined.
04:56:17 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:58:31 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
05:07:45 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:14:21 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
05:16:44 -!- p_q has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
05:21:04 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
05:21:16 -!- pikhq has joined.
05:21:48 -!- asiekierka has joined.
05:22:52 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
05:32:49 -!- oerjan has joined.
05:34:23 -!- augur has joined.
05:42:08 <oerjan> 19:20:08 <elliott> it stands for oerjan's punnes terribales
05:42:09 <oerjan> 19:20:13 <elliott> it's french you uncultured fuck
05:42:22 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure there should be no a in the second word
05:42:49 <oerjan> also, NEEDS MORE MANGLED LANGUAGE EXPANSIONS
05:43:34 <oerjan> *except for the plentiful puns involving cannibals.
05:46:44 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, quick, publish something trivial with him.
05:47:05 <oerjan> IF YOUR ERDOS NUMBER BECOMES LESS THAN MINE WE SHALL BECOME BITTER ENEMIES
05:49:46 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
05:55:06 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:55:14 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: Later).
06:00:29 -!- pikhq has joined.
06:01:27 -!- kwertii has joined.
06:01:28 <augur> im thinking of putting up some puzzles on my website
06:01:47 <augur> sort of mathematical sort of
06:02:54 <augur> some of my profs have relatively small erdos numbers
06:03:07 <coppro> pikhq: crap, give me a few years to start doing original research, ok
06:03:33 <pikhq> coppro: I intend to write a paper with him on the process of resurrection.
06:03:52 <pikhq> His input as the first person to have been resurrected by technology will, no doubt, be quite helpful.
06:04:05 <augur> chomsky has an erdos number of 4, so lasnik has an erdos number of 5
06:04:06 <Zwaarddijk> pikhq: what if he is resurrected by theology instead!
06:04:09 <augur> lasnik is one of my profs
06:04:31 <pikhq> Zwaarddijk: Then Erdős would be the Second Coming of the Christ.
06:04:41 <coppro> I have met someone whose wife is a 2
06:05:36 <Zwaarddijk> pikhq: Erdös is of Jewish decent, so ... I guess we need to bring out our lulav and esrog and all that jazz and go sing hosiannah son of david at his grave?
06:05:47 <pikhq> Zwaarddijk: So's Jesus.
06:06:09 <Zwaarddijk> who knows with those guys, every second one turns out to be a messiah :|
06:06:13 <pikhq> Man, the Erdős numbering is going to get absurd if it keeps up for a few generations. Imagine one's Erdős number being limited by the *generations it's been* since Erdős lived.
06:06:32 <coppro> pikhq: precisely why I need to minimize my own
06:06:39 <augur> pikhq: im sure one could generalize it to factor that out
06:06:40 <Zwaarddijk> so you can sum up all the paths by which you get one
06:07:02 <Zwaarddijk> where people end up getting erdös numbers less than one
06:07:03 <augur> so that you have a generational erdos number dependent on the minimum overlap of some sort
06:07:11 <pikhq> Zwaarddijk: No, seriously, ö ≠ ő
06:07:29 <augur> so that the earliest you could reasonably have coauthored with someone with an erdos number would make that number relatively 0
06:07:36 <oerjan> nah what we need is just another obsessed drug-addicted math genius to overshadow erdős
06:07:38 <augur> for the minimum of such numbers
06:07:53 <augur> oerjan: i can try to be the first two
06:07:55 <pikhq> oerjan: Shame that those don't come often.
06:08:03 <augur> but not the second to last one :(
06:08:27 <augur> learning universal algebra and category theory are hard enough
06:08:34 <quintopia> Zwaarddijk: it every branching the value splits evenly among the branches and every new node it increases by 1. your number is the minimum over all paths.
06:08:55 -!- jcp has joined.
06:09:00 <oerjan> <Zwaarddijk> so you can sum up all the paths by which you get one <-- wouldn't that be more appropriate for a Feynman number
06:10:00 <augur> quintopia: is that the feynmanian interpretation of erdos numbers? :x
06:10:12 <oerjan> also you'd want to add some complex phase factor
06:10:18 <quintopia> i assumed that erdos was more prolific than feynman
06:10:36 <augur> i was making reference to feynmans interpretation of quantum mechanics
06:10:40 <quintopia> so the branching has more effect there
06:12:17 <oerjan> "Note that Feynman has an Erdös Number of 3."
06:17:24 <augur> oerjan: interesting!
06:17:34 <augur> so lasnik has a minimum feynman number of 8!
06:17:39 <quintopia> my example of a way of allowing branching to occur does not let you get numbers less than 1 though if people are nodes, unless you allow per-paper multi-edges
06:18:22 <quintopia> i almost got an erdos number once >.>
06:18:34 <oerjan> augur: i don't think it's cool to calculate feynman numbers in the exact same way as erdős numbers except for starting with feynman, though
06:18:46 <augur> oerjan: it is for me!
06:18:52 <augur> quintopia: yes it is
06:19:27 <oerjan> every number person should have their own, curiously relevant rule for it
06:19:38 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | ais523, err, how could you know the seed.
06:19:39 <augur> quintopia: extended naturals*
06:19:55 <quintopia> augur: there is no reason to assume those
06:19:59 * oerjan suddenly cannot help considering the number associated to a porn star
06:20:03 <pikhq> Eight factorial is an astounding lower bound.
06:20:08 <quintopia> but the papers never went anywhere
06:20:20 <oerjan> i think you should find the kind of rule used there obvious...
06:20:57 <augur> quintopia: from wikipedia: "A person with no such coauthorship chain connecting to Erdős has an Erdős number of infinity (or an undefined one)."
06:21:21 <pikhq> quintopia: "Easy" way to get a low Erdős number: prove some conjecture. Thereby be guaranteed a well-known math career. Viola.
06:21:49 <quintopia> i think the "undefined" interpretation would be simpler. it allows you to say "i don't have one" which is more straightforward than "mine is infinity"
06:22:04 <augur> quintopia: well im an ass.
06:22:45 <quintopia> pikhq: but i gave up on a math career
06:23:01 <quintopia> who has two thumbs and will never prove the UGC?
06:24:55 <pikhq> It's a shame that all the easy proofs have been done already. :P
06:25:33 <Zwaarddijk> you just need to come up with a good new field that sounds reasonably useful, and prove some trivial shit in it
06:25:59 <pikhq> I'll be. 'Tis the ides of March.
06:26:06 <Vorpal> Zwaarddijk, if anything such a field is even harder
06:26:14 <Vorpal> I mean to come up with
06:28:23 <pikhq> If ye be Caeser, beware!
06:28:41 <quintopia> actually i was trying to find a way to learn an intersection of 2 half-spaces in polynomial time
06:29:20 <quintopia> it's one of those problems that's trivial in low dimension, and ridiculously hard in n dimensions
06:29:43 <Vorpal> oerjan, what is that supposed to be?
06:30:13 <oerjan> It is a knife you see before you
06:30:26 <quintopia> and there was no good reason for it
06:31:03 <oerjan> there was a perfectly good reason,
06:31:03 <Vorpal> oerjan, why is it made of rubber?
06:31:11 <oerjan> 'Tis the Ides of March!
06:31:17 <Vorpal> you stole it from a theatre right?
06:31:34 <oerjan> but but... it worked in hamlet!
06:32:51 <pikhq> oerjan: The play you're referencing is "The Tragedy of Julius Caesar".
06:32:57 <quintopia> january february march april may june vorpal inane september...
06:33:14 <pikhq> Vorpal: March 15th is the Ides of March.
06:33:41 <oerjan> pikhq: no no i mean using a theatre dagger worked in hamlet
06:33:45 <quintopia> there is nothing more to it than that
06:34:21 <pikhq> Vorpal: Meaning you need to watch some Shakespeare, man.
06:34:31 <quintopia> oerjan: iirc the most dramatic deaths there involved poison: poison in the ear, in the drink, on the tip of the foil
06:34:40 <oerjan> well you don't need to watch it, just absorb some memes like i
06:35:08 <pikhq> Shakespeare is genuinely enjoyable when performed, though. It's just insanely boring when read.
06:35:13 <oerjan> then mangle them horribly
06:35:19 <pikhq> And it boggles the mind that English classes actually freaking read them.
06:35:31 <pikhq> Reading scripts to plays.
06:35:57 <quintopia> part of the class requirements were to go see like 3 different live performances
06:36:04 <pikhq> quintopia: Good work.
06:36:13 <quintopia> but this class happened in england, so it wasn't hard to find live performances
06:36:25 <pikhq> Yeah, it'd be pretty hard to find that in the US.
06:36:37 <quintopia> i saw pericles, as you like it, and ... something else
06:37:01 <pikhq> It's not like you're at most a couple hundred miles from Stratford upon Avon here.
06:37:03 <oerjan> <quintopia> there is nothing more to it than that <-- well there is, the roman way of numbering dates was weird
06:37:09 <quintopia> i also went to see a performance of romeo and juliet live in atlanta for one of my classes in high school or middle school...
06:37:30 <quintopia> they do matinees for kiddies on field trips
06:37:41 <quintopia> and then they bring out the booze and do the adult versions :P
06:37:57 <oerjan> they counted the number of days until the _next_ calendae, ides, and i think one more
06:38:03 <quintopia> which isn't to say the kiddie versions weren't as raunchy as shakespeare is by its very nature
06:38:25 <oerjan> (inclusive counting, so the day before was the second iirc)
06:38:40 <pikhq> Aaah, Shakespeare. Highest ratio of dick jokes to content of any bit of 'high culture'. :P
06:39:00 <oerjan> pikhq: surely that was his true genius :D
06:39:09 <pikhq> quintopia: Thus the scare quotes.
06:39:10 <quintopia> maybe hamlet was reasonably high up there
06:39:36 <quintopia> but i really think that people thinking shakespeare is haute couture is the strangest thing
06:39:49 <pikhq> Yeah, it's just several hundred year old reasonably well-written popular entertainment.
06:39:55 <quintopia> "It must be fancy because they talk all antiquarian!"
06:40:33 <pikhq> But, then, a lot of what is perceived as "high culture" these days is really just old popular entertainment.
06:40:35 <quintopia> SOME of them are well-written. some of them suck. shakespeare did, by himself, the entire spectrum of modern movies.
06:42:09 <oerjan> those darn aquarian speakers
06:42:10 <pikhq> (see: most things that are both old entertainment and enjoyable)
06:43:10 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
06:43:15 <quintopia> hamlet = big fish, titus andronicus = 2012, romeo and juliet = high school musical, twelfth night = freaky friday, etc.
06:44:22 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
06:44:29 <pikhq> Romeo and Juliet gets so very misinterpreted, though.
06:44:41 <pikhq> I don't know why, but people are convinced it's this nice, romantic tale.
06:45:06 <pikhq> It's a tale of two idiots offing themselves for stupid reasons.
06:46:37 <pikhq> And few other plays get that treatment, because people are hardly aware of the premises.
06:48:50 <oerjan> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnalogyBackfire
06:49:10 <pikhq> Dammit, now I'm even less likely to sleep.
06:50:19 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
06:50:34 <quintopia> in another channel i'm in there is a macro bot. one of the macros is to answer any link to tvtropes with "Don't do it! No one's ever come back alive!"
06:59:19 -!- HackEgo has joined.
07:00:59 <augur> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/puzzles/
07:01:01 <augur> for anyone interested
07:02:01 -!- kwertii has quit (Quit: bye).
07:03:07 <augur> ask me questions (including requests for more data points, or rational simplifications)
07:05:01 <augur> or for some correlative coding
07:07:31 <augur> no, no correlative coding, sorry :)
07:08:49 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
07:21:09 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
07:21:13 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
07:28:30 -!- azaq23 has joined.
07:31:24 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
07:33:11 -!- comex has joined.
07:33:29 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
07:38:28 -!- FireFly has joined.
07:39:27 <quintopia> augur: where is the answer supposed to be submitted?
07:42:15 -!- rodgort has joined.
07:55:52 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
07:55:58 -!- pikhq has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:03:55 <augur> quintopia: to me here, if you like
08:03:59 <augur> or email it to me, or something
08:04:14 <quintopia> well i have no idea what it's supposed to mean
08:04:27 <augur> its not really supposed to be submitted tho. its just to get you to think
08:04:28 <quintopia> i hate puzzles with no english words
08:04:35 <augur> there _is_ something going on in these
08:04:49 <oerjan> THIS IS 2011 YOU MUST HAVE AUTOMATICAL JUDGING WITH HIGH SCORES
08:04:53 <augur> i will answer questions, if you like
08:04:53 <quintopia> if it said something like "find a function to generate this sequence"
08:05:21 <augur> oerjan: i was actually considering something like that, but not for judging, for generating graphs
08:05:36 <augur> quintopia: if you want to do that, go ahead!
08:05:50 <augur> ill tell you this tho, its not a sequence
08:06:20 <quintopia> oerjan: like theconfoundry.com. automatical/crowd-sourced judging and high scores! and some of the puzzles are actually p okay. by which i mean, the ones that i post are p okay.
08:06:49 <augur> theres no real answer to these puzzles tho
08:06:57 <augur> to be sure, theres what i did to produce these things
08:07:03 <quintopia> augur: so then it's a set? an infinite set?
08:07:51 <quintopia> then an english language question would be "what is the underlying structure that all these things have in common?"
08:07:54 <augur> i will a) answer questions, b) provide more data points
08:08:04 <augur> quintopia: it could be, indeed
08:08:32 <augur> valid questions are things like, are there subsets that have common properties, etc.
08:08:41 <augur> if so, what subsets, etc.
08:09:49 <augur> it has to be a question that involves expanding or restricting the data points in rational ways
08:10:18 <quintopia> question: is it more useful to think of these things as (disconnected) digraphs? or as small sets of separate digraphs that are only tangentially and quantitatively related?
08:10:49 <augur> each image (separated by dotted lines) is a single digraph
08:11:30 <augur> also, if you ask for some sort of natural reorganization of some fashion, i will also provide this
08:11:39 <quintopia> what is an example of a property which restricts the set of all digraphs to exactly the digraphs in your set? :P
08:14:57 <augur> oerjan: no ideas? no questions? :)
08:17:51 <oerjan> well i wasn't going to say, but it immediately puts me off by analogy with the kind of iq tests i find annoying.
08:18:49 <augur> here theres no real answer
08:19:23 <augur> i mean, the only answer is to understand it sufficiently that you're happy with your understanding!
08:19:33 <oerjan> ...these iq tests are annoying because they feel like there is no real answer, but you have to guess what the test maker was actually thinking of
08:19:49 <augur> well, in that sense then yeah, i suppose.
08:20:07 <augur> i can give you hints if you want. you just have to ask the right questions! :)
08:20:22 <augur> this aspect of the game is also intentional
08:20:37 <oerjan> i may not be managing to get through the point that i'm not actually interested.
08:20:47 <augur> well you SHOULD be interested!
08:21:40 <oerjan> i have this nice book about intuition, it gives the excellent advice to ignore ideas using the verb "should"
08:21:53 <augur> well you MUST be interested!
08:23:17 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
08:25:36 <oklopol> "<augur> chomsky has an erdos number of 4, so lasnik has an erdos number of 5" <<< i couldn't find a prof with more than 3 in our uni, but i suppose it's slightly easier for mathematicians :P
08:25:44 <oklopol> (also i didn't try very hard)
08:25:53 <augur> oklopol: check out my puzzles!
08:30:47 <oklopol> but no one had a 1 which was kinda disappointing :(
08:31:28 <oklopol> that's exactly the kind of thing i don't like doing, i want an exact problem where i know exactly what to do
08:31:40 <augur> oklopol: explain it.
08:31:44 <augur> explain whats going on.
08:31:59 <oklopol> or at least i want to get that illusion, of course problem solving is always about not knowing what you're supposed to do, but i need some sort of nice framework
08:32:13 <oklopol> augur: is the sequence ordered?
08:32:25 <augur> depends on what you mean.
08:32:52 <oklopol> is P_2 the first graph, P_2 \cup C_4 \cup C_4 the second one, etc
08:33:11 <oklopol> except the second one was P_2 \cup C_4 i guess
08:34:02 <oklopol> if you don't get my notation
08:34:05 <augur> ah well, obviously thats true, but
08:34:38 <oklopol> (i have to go to uni pretty soon)
08:34:42 <augur> i mean, the items are graphs, obviously
08:34:59 <oklopol> yeah but i'm asking if this is a sequence of graphs or a set of graphs
08:35:02 <oklopol> what information is relevant
08:35:08 <augur> they're presented in no particular order
08:35:34 <oklopol> they are a random subset of a set of graphs?
08:35:53 <oklopol> but the subset of small graphs in that set?
08:35:58 -!- Sgeo has joined.
08:36:30 <oklopol> i'm asking if there exists a set of graphs S such that the graphs is see are a finite subset of S
08:36:51 <oklopol> or perhaps the set of all graphs of S up to some size k with respect to some definition of size
08:37:10 <augur> oh, yes, there is _some_ infinite set of graphs S of which this is a subset
08:37:31 <augur> namely, a small number that i bothered to create in 20 minutes.
08:39:05 <oklopol> one thing i immediately started wondering about was a connection between C_4 and P_2: both are in face C_4 if you allow repetition of vertices, but you can't get say a triangle this way
08:39:36 <oklopol> what the fuck am i saying?
08:41:01 <oklopol> but, C_4 is the complement of the graph P_2 \cup P_2
08:41:18 <oklopol> and parities add up as well
08:42:24 <oklopol> so i guess my answer is: C_4
08:43:31 <augur> ive added some commentary btw.
08:43:35 <augur> Sgeo: join the fun!
08:43:40 <augur> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/puzzles/
08:44:40 <oklopol> oh umm they are digraphs, sorry my crt is kinda sucky :D
08:44:58 <oerjan> augur: are there any subgraphs of those given which are in the set but not themselves given?
08:45:23 <oklopol> in that case complementation doesn't work, so i'll go with my original answer: C_4 but repetition of vertices is allowed, that does work now now that i think about it
08:46:20 <oerjan> augur: or wait, who were you answering
08:47:13 <oerjan> dead people usually are.
08:47:37 <oklopol> ^ see, it was true and i claimed it was obvious, therefore i'm really smart
08:48:38 <oerjan> do all graphs in the set have 4n vertices and an even number of edges
08:48:39 <oklopol> subgraphs not being in the set makes the problem much more interesting, because now i can verify my hypotheses myself
08:49:31 <oklopol> oerjan: oh you realized that too, was it before or after you asked augur this for that exact reason?
08:49:38 <oerjan> basically without that information, the set given did not strictly imply _anything_
08:49:40 <oklopol> by which i mean my comment was stupid
08:49:43 <oerjan> oklopol: before, i think
08:49:54 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
08:50:00 <augur> oerjan: to that specific question, no
08:50:40 <oklopol> oerjan: it did imply that there exists a natural way to construct these graphs that gives those graphs with the least effort
08:51:04 <oklopol> but that's not really the kind of puzzle that's likeable
08:51:04 <augur> i dont know if its least effort, but
08:52:03 <augur> oerjan: mind you, my answers could be informative beyond the obvious
08:52:11 <oerjan> augur: in that case can you give an example which does not have 4n vertices and an even number of edges (preferably in all allowable combinations)
08:52:31 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
08:53:04 <augur> can i put that off till tomorrow?
08:53:17 <oerjan> heh are they that hard to construct? :D
08:53:29 <augur> no but im on a laptop so doing it with a trackpad is annoying
08:53:35 <augur> the graphics, i mean
08:54:18 <oklopol> if it has more than a million nodes, shit gets interesting
08:54:45 <augur> actually they might always have 4n vertices, im honestly not sure :)
08:54:45 <oerjan> does this mean the examples given were made not just based on being _mathematically_ easy to construct, but also on being easy to draw on a computer?
08:55:22 <augur> no, the answer is almost certainly no, but give me until tomorrow
08:55:33 <augur> well, drawing graphs is easy, but tedious :P
08:56:08 <augur> as for mathematical easy, this might be true. i suppose it depends on what you mean by math.
08:56:36 <oklopol> yeah oerjan, what do you mean by math? i've always wondered about that
08:56:57 <augur> as it were, this particular kind of math is not at all unfamiliar to this channel.
08:57:20 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
08:58:49 <augur> mm.. oerjan, i think infact that there are always 4n vertices, yes.
08:58:53 <oerjan> i meant mathematical as opposed to physically for presentation
08:59:23 <augur> yes, actually there are always 4n vertices.
09:00:46 <oerjan> are all the graphs subgraphs of a square grid?
09:00:59 <augur> im not sure what you mean
09:01:55 <oerjan> like a subgraph of an unbounded chessboard pattern
09:02:09 <oerjan> each example so far can be put in one
09:02:52 <augur> ah, you mean where each vertex is a square on the grid, and edge are only between rectilinearly adjacent squares' nodes?
09:04:14 <augur> but mind you, this is true of any graph with 4n vertices, surely.
09:04:18 <oerjan> and yet clearly not all such graphs, e.g. not less than four C_4 copies
09:04:36 <oerjan> augur: um no. not for a complete graph, for example
09:05:44 <lifthrasiir> augur, a set of digraphs that there is no odd cycles?
09:06:03 <lifthrasiir> i cannot really think of the better characterization
09:06:10 <augur> this is true of them
09:06:12 <augur> but not sufficient
09:06:13 <oerjan> actually that follows from the grid property
09:06:50 <lifthrasiir> every vertices should be a part of exactly one even cycle, then?
09:07:18 <oerjan> oh are the components always paths or cycles?
09:07:34 <oerjan> that's not true, some of the examples have no cycles at all
09:07:39 <lifthrasiir> augur, and that is not sufficient yet, right?
09:07:42 <augur> oerjan: look again
09:08:02 <oerjan> oops they are _directed_?
09:08:57 <augur> you have at least two facts to work with that are very useful, i think
09:10:13 <augur> depending on which questions you ask
09:10:17 <oerjan> ok so those components that i thought were just two connected vertices are actually 2-cycles
09:10:31 <oerjan> in that case is every component always a 2n-cycle?
09:10:44 <oerjan> directed in the obvious way
09:11:36 <oerjan> can there be larger than 4-cycle components?
09:13:01 <oerjan> is the graph consisting of two 6-cycles a member of the set?
09:13:25 <augur> that is, 2 6 cycles and nothing else?
09:14:40 <oerjan> we could summarize the examples given by number of 2- and 4-cycles: (2,1), (2,2), (4,0) and (0,4)
09:14:43 -!- cheater- has joined.
09:15:32 <augur> i will not comment on characterizations.
09:15:54 <oerjan> well this is just notation
09:16:20 <augur> i will however reveal more data (or constrain existing data) along specific lines (at first just natural ones, later, ones that you describe, if they exist)
09:16:49 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
09:18:34 <oerjan> oh hm since the components are cycles the number of edges = number of vertices
09:20:04 <oerjan> is the graph containing just 4 2n-cycles always a member?
09:20:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
09:20:32 <oerjan> 4 6-cycles, or 4 8-cycles, etc.
09:21:23 <oerjan> do you have a counterexample? :D
09:23:14 <oerjan> is there any element of the set consisting solely of 6-cycles (any number)?
09:23:54 <oerjan> (preferrably smallest) example?
09:24:20 <oerjan> we've already excluded 2 and 4
09:25:08 <oerjan> what about 2n 2n-cycles in general?
09:26:01 <augur> this constitutes a natural simplificatin.
09:26:15 <lifthrasiir> if the set didn't contain the example 2 (i.e. (2,1)) it is possible that there should be no k-cycles or at least k k-cycles...
09:27:07 <oerjan> well a hypothesis is that if there are just 2n-cycles, then their number must be divisible by 2n
09:27:09 <augur> mind you, not a single natural simplification.
09:27:30 <augur> er, not an atomic one, i guess you could say.
09:27:46 <augur> lifthrasiir: i have no idea what you're asking :p
09:27:54 <oerjan> augur: you are not making sense now...
09:28:26 <lifthrasiir> augur, that is just a side effect of my thinking process... not asking. :p
09:28:32 <augur> each puzzle that i show you is in principle an infinite set of digraphs describable in some elegant fashion
09:28:45 <oerjan> is the disjoint union of two examples always an example?
09:29:00 <oerjan> (including two equal ones)
09:29:07 <augur> there may or may not be ways to simplify the description and derive a subset of this set
09:29:50 <augur> that is to say, the derivation of a subset is natural, because it derives from a simplification of the description
09:30:02 <augur> or maybe a complication, depending on your perspective, but i'd say simplification
09:30:18 <augur> lemme think about the disjoint union question for a moment
09:30:46 <lifthrasiir> so the derivation of a subset of that set can be natural or not, depending on how the subset is defined (against the original description)?
09:31:12 <oerjan> is there an example containing 6-cycles, but less than 6 of them?
09:31:23 <augur> arbitrary subsets arent "natural" in the sense that they have an elegant description. they might, but in general they probably dont.
09:32:23 <lifthrasiir> does the set contain an empty digraph? (just to be sure)
09:33:04 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: that _would_ technically contradict information already given ;D
09:33:12 <augur> oerjan: which information?
09:33:26 <oerjan> augur: no subgraphs left out
09:34:05 <oerjan> but it's an example easy to forget
09:34:12 <augur> yes, its probably better to say it doesnt include the empty digraph
09:34:27 <oerjan> 3 4-cycles, 2 2-cycles?
09:34:42 <augur> tho including it doesnt break anything essential
09:35:42 <oerjan> the graph consisting of 3 4-cycles and 2 2-cycles? if we have that then we can concluse we always have the graph of n 4-cycles + 2 2-cycles
09:35:46 <augur> btw, http://www.wellnowwhat.net/puzzles/1/ has a running log of the relevant question/answer pairs
09:36:33 <augur> oerjan: there is no graph that is just 3 4-cycles
09:36:40 <lifthrasiir> (i thought that it gathers the q&a pairs automatically somehow at first...)
09:36:47 <oerjan> augur: that _plus_ 2 2-cycles, duh
09:37:38 <augur> that graph does not exist
09:37:53 <oerjan> er you mean as an example
09:38:04 <oerjan> surely it exists as a graph
09:38:17 <augur> no! it doesnt exist ANYWHERE!
09:38:25 <lifthrasiir> can it be determined in linear time whether the set contains a particular graph or not, given the numbers of each cycles already?
09:38:26 <oerjan> hm that's an obvious hole in my induction ;D
09:38:50 <augur> lifthrasiir: i have no fucking clue man
09:39:06 <augur> ill give you a hint
09:39:13 <oerjan> any graph containing 2 2-cycles + (4n+3) 4-cycles (you just buried n=0)
09:39:30 <augur> you're missing a conceptualization thats incredibly useful and potentially incredibly obvious
09:39:37 <oerjan> er *containing exactly
09:39:43 <augur> i have no idea if those graphs are members :p
09:40:22 <augur> i dont have a full mathematical workup of this, just a way to generate examples, so as the mathematical questions become more complex, i will quickly fail to be able to answer them
09:43:05 <augur> you might do well to ask questions that dont seem pertinent to the immediate facts
09:43:50 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
09:44:17 <oerjan> does this set stem from a problem that is not immediately graph-related?
09:44:40 <oerjan> (trying to be lateral here :D)
09:44:57 <augur> the way im conceptualizing it is only tangentially graph related
09:45:04 <oerjan> is it a matching problem of sorts?
09:45:19 <augur> not as im conceiving it but equivalent to one, i have no idea
09:45:46 <oerjan> is it connected to number theory?
09:46:17 <oerjan> (and i mean the source of it, not whether there happens to be _some_ connection)
09:46:17 <augur> i doubt it, to both.
09:46:43 <oerjan> is it a counting problem?
09:47:16 <augur> you probably can think of it as one, but that's probably one of the least intuitive ways to understand what's going on
09:47:37 <oerjan> transportation/travelling salesman stuff?
09:48:16 <augur> too specific, these questions
09:48:26 <augur> np-complete, i have no idea. depends on what you mean, i suppose
09:48:32 <augur> graph membership test? no clue.
09:49:00 <augur> think more laterally
09:50:26 <oerjan> hm clearly a subgraph of a member isn't always a member
09:51:39 <oerjan> are the examples constructed by applying some operation to the smaller ones?
09:51:47 <augur> remember: you can ask for natural restrictions to the set, or for more information about the set
09:52:08 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:52:12 <augur> what do you mean by applying some operation to the smaller ones?
09:52:16 <oerjan> i have no idea what you mean with that natural restrictions stuff
09:52:37 <oerjan> well like doubling a vertex and adding an edge between, that sort of thing
09:52:46 <augur> like i said, right now, since you dont know what to ask for, i will choose at random of the ones i can see
09:53:06 <oerjan> we have disjoint union, but that's clearly insufficient
09:53:08 <augur> oh, i have no idea if that will do anything
09:53:26 <oerjan> ok give a natural restriction then :D
09:53:46 <augur> im going to go to bed in a bit, since i have class at 3:30
09:54:09 <oerjan> ok and i'm going to get up properly
09:54:16 <augur> but tomorrow i will give a natural subset of puzzle 1
09:55:24 <augur> remind me tomorrow!
09:59:43 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:16:51 -!- cheater00 has joined.
10:18:26 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:46:23 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
11:10:36 -!- cheater- has joined.
11:12:51 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
11:12:58 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving).
11:27:26 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:28:50 <ais523> context for the topic?
11:29:04 <ais523> I can hardly answer a question in the topic if I don't know what it's about
11:29:12 <ais523> although the punctuation is Vorpal's style, which helps slightly
11:34:44 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:40:06 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:06:17 <olsner> maybe look for a similar line in the log?
12:17:09 <fizzie> ais523: It's from 2010-10-05, and you have already answered <ais523> Vorpal: well, it's seeded with the current date and time, right?
12:19:28 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | because making a hole out of arbitrary expressions is freaky.
12:19:44 <fizzie> Context seems to be manipulating the NetHack RNG by stepping it by trying to walk into a wall.
12:20:41 <coppro> pikhq: further to a discussion yesterday, one of my profs this term has erdos number 1
12:21:26 <fizzie> coppro: Now you just need to cut off his head with a sword, and then your Erdös number will be 1. (What do you mean that's not how it works?)
12:21:57 <coppro> we have at least another prof with 1 as well
13:06:16 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
13:06:23 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
13:06:24 -!- Gregor has joined.
13:06:36 <ais523> coppro: go coauthor a paper with one of them
13:06:44 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest3172.
13:07:19 <ais523> I should really ask my supervisor his Erdős number sometime
13:07:30 <ais523> because otherwise, how will I know what mine is?
13:08:16 -!- Guest3172 has changed nick to Gregor.
13:12:36 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
13:17:08 <fizzie> There should be some sort of an "Erdös number preservation society" that would try to promote co-authored papers between young, healthy mathematicians and aging, low-Erdös-number mathematicians, to keep people with low numbers available for as long as possible.
13:19:35 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
13:20:54 -!- ais523 has joined.
13:31:47 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
13:31:55 -!- pikhq has joined.
13:42:57 -!- copumpkin has joined.
13:51:49 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
14:02:09 <Gregor> fizzie: Yes, because clearly that's the metric you want to preserve :P
14:13:45 <fizzie> Gregor: Well, sure: it's a sad world where you need necromancy to get a single-digit Erdös number.
14:43:21 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
14:49:19 <pikhq> Sad... Or awesome?
14:50:36 -!- Gregor has set topic: Yeah, well I want an Erds number of 1! *gets robe and wizard hat* | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | optbot is fucking terrible and we all hate it.
14:51:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:52:21 -!- Zwaarddijk has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
14:52:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:53:36 -!- Zwaarddijk has joined.
14:54:41 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:07:15 -!- antioptbot has joined.
15:07:43 -!- sftp has joined.
15:07:47 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | Equivalent code:.
15:07:47 -!- antioptbot has set topic: Yeah, well I want an Erds number of 1! *gets robe and wizard hat* | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | optbot is fucking terrible and we all hate it.
15:08:15 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | Yes, but mIRC didn't tab complete you before :P Maybe it wsa just me.
15:08:15 -!- antioptbot has set topic: Yeah, well I want an Erds number of 1! *gets robe and wizard hat* | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | optbot is fucking terrible and we all hate it.
15:08:23 <optbot> Lymia: alas it can only edit ColorForth
15:08:41 <Gregor> Lymia: optbot is a bot that replaces the topic with retarded bullshit on a regular basis.
15:08:41 <optbot> Gregor: what about implementing sii?
15:09:06 <fizzie> Gregor: The arms race, you are starting it. Soon there'll be an antiantioptbot.
15:09:10 <Gregor> antioptbot is a bot that reverts any changes made by optbot to the topic.
15:09:11 <optbot> Gregor: here is the similar one.
15:09:29 <Lymia> Why don't you just kill optbot, fizzie.
15:09:29 <optbot> Lymia: Because, dammit, the root directory should have useful things in it.
15:09:52 <fizzie> Lymia: Because of apathy, primarily.
15:10:08 <fizzie> Usually it's oerjan who takes more of an active role in administrationary things.
15:12:07 <Lymia> I want to make an antiantioptbot for the lulz.
15:12:32 <Lymia> Because somebody mentioned it.
15:13:35 -!- Gregor has set topic: Yeah, well I want an Erds number of 1! *gets robe and wizard hat* | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
15:14:15 -!- Lymia has set topic: Yeah, well I want an Erdös number of 1! *gets robe and wizard hat* | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | First person to make antiantioptbot gets a cookie..
15:15:43 <ais523> oh, I forgot optbot screwed with the topic
15:15:43 <optbot> ais523: i deem it "teenagerism"
15:16:25 <Gregor> ais523: I don't care about it just babbling incoherently, only effing with the topic in a destructive way.
15:16:36 <ais523> ah, antioptbot's yours?
15:16:46 <ais523> I may make an antiantiantioptbot, in an esolang or something
15:17:18 <Gregor> So every time optbot changes the topic, it will get changed three more times, ultimately ending up in the topic it had in the first place? :P
15:18:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:18:26 <Lymia> I want you to make a new bot.
15:18:36 <Lymia> That, or add a function to an existingbot.
15:26:18 -!- HackEgo has joined.
15:26:25 -!- EgoBot has joined.
15:43:00 <Lymia> Gregor, decides on a random esolang and a random not-esolang for you.
15:43:13 <Gregor> OK ... and what does that do? X-P
15:43:46 <Lymia> Esolang: /// | Normal Language: Perl
15:44:06 <fizzie> Then you go and implement?
15:44:31 <fizzie> I wouldn't mind seeing Perl implemented in ///.
15:45:27 <Gregor> `echo I'm programmable, so you can make me do that :P
15:46:02 <HackEgo> I'm programmable, so you can make me do that :P
15:48:49 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:49:51 <fizzie> Try it out, it does what you'd expect.
15:50:00 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | nice.
15:50:00 <fizzie> (Also it's not my fault.)
15:50:00 -!- antioptbot has set topic: Yeah, well I want an Erdös number of 1! *gets robe and wizard hat* | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | First person to make antiantioptbot gets a cookie..
15:50:24 -!- asiekierka has joined.
15:50:25 <oerjan> optbot: how do you feel at this time
15:50:25 <optbot> oerjan: so what's the problem with just reading it?
15:50:35 <fizzie> oerjan: There are already plans for antantioptbot and antiantiantioptbot floating around.
15:51:12 <fizzie> Soon every topic-change will be accompanied by a screenful of botfights.
15:51:59 <oerjan> who is planning antiantioptbot
15:52:22 <fizzie> I mentioned it, Lymia requested it; I doubt anyone's actively making it.
15:52:41 <fizzie> ais523's "may" do an antiantiantioptbot.
15:52:55 <fizzie> It's going to be pretty silly with no antiantioptbot in place.
15:53:27 <Lymia> fizzie, i need a suitable programming language for it.
15:56:07 <Lymia> I should Perl Golf it
15:57:57 <oerjan> well some people were complaining i was no fun, so i shall have a suitably silly policy for this until elliott actually fixes optbot
15:57:57 <optbot> oerjan: and how to scale that up further
15:58:14 <oerjan> ok, antioptbot survives
15:59:12 <fizzie> I don't think he acknowledges there's anything broken there.
15:59:26 <oerjan> fizzie: we made an agreement, in case you didn't see that
15:59:32 <fizzie> Ah; I must've missed that.
15:59:52 <fizzie> I have a strict drama-quota, must've overfloweded.
15:59:53 <oerjan> he'll make it not change topics for 12 hours after someone else does
16:00:33 <Gregor> <fizzie> Soon every topic-change will be accompanied by a screenful of botfights. ** only those that are initiated by optbot
16:01:21 <oerjan> i think i shall use 1d5 for the next bot, etc.
16:01:58 -!- FireFly has joined.
16:02:24 <Gregor> multibot is really a pretty nifty construction of mine :P
16:02:30 <Gregor> antioptbot took me like five minutes to write :P
16:02:48 -!- fungot has changed nick to antiantiantianti.
16:02:52 -!- antiantiantianti has changed nick to fungot.
16:02:58 <fizzie> (Just testing how many will fit.)
16:03:12 <fizzie> Not very many, it seems.
16:04:36 <Gregor> Eventually they can just be called "aaaaaaaob" though :P
16:04:56 -!- oerjan has changed nick to oerjan^2.
16:05:02 -!- oerjan^2 has changed nick to oerjan.
16:07:19 <oerjan> <fizzie> Gregor: Well, sure: it's a sad world where you need necromancy to get a single-digit Erdös number.
16:07:46 <oerjan> well the singularity might fix that in time
16:09:31 -!- antiantioptbot has joined.
16:09:40 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | s/till/for/.
16:09:41 -!- antioptbot has set topic: Yeah, well I want an Erdös number of 1! *gets robe and wizard hat* | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | First person to make antiantioptbot gets a cookie..
16:09:41 -!- antiantioptbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | s/till/for/.
16:09:53 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
16:10:01 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*antiantio@*.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net.
16:10:16 <oerjan> SORRY THE CHAIN IS OVER
16:10:26 -!- Gregor has set topic: Yeah, well I want an Erds number of 1! *gets robe and wizard hat* | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
16:11:56 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
16:15:44 <oerjan> <fizzie> I wouldn't mind seeing Perl implemented in ///.
16:16:04 <Gregor> Perl 6 has no good implementation right now anyway, right? <trollface/>
16:16:07 <oerjan> well you'd probably want to Itflabtijtslwi
16:16:24 -!- cheater99 has joined.
16:17:01 <oerjan> maybe one could add an FF command for the ffi
16:18:15 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
16:24:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:26:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I dearly hope someone at least mentioned groups to him.
16:26:58 <oerjan> i somehow feel the border goes between linear/vector algebra on one side and groups etc. on the other
16:27:10 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.25: 4M(!!!)+32k+8k+2k to Japan, 8k to Malaysia, 1k+/32 to Australia, 64k+256+/32 to Indonesia, 512 to Thailand, /32 to China.
16:27:27 <oerjan> although by this time even groups are old
16:27:42 <Gregor> Isn't /32 = one address?
16:28:48 <Ilari> Gregor: /n there is IPv6 /n.
16:29:29 <Gregor> Ahhh, sorry, IPv6, got it.
16:29:42 <Gregor> I was wondering if we had really stooped to fighting over individual IPv4 addresses :P
16:29:47 <oerjan> i think daily reporting of ipv6 depletion is like your obsession getting obsessions
16:30:15 <Ilari> The IPv6 parts are more about adoption than depletion.
16:32:33 <Ilari> APNIC can allocate 800k of those /32s and then think about getting 2410::/12 (or something) from IANA.
16:34:26 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
16:34:38 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:37:50 -!- jix has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:38:12 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:38:13 -!- jix has joined.
16:39:54 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
16:39:57 <Ilari> No RIR is even close to qualifying for second IPv6 block allocation (oh, and the present blocks were allocated in 2006).
16:40:38 -!- FireFly has joined.
16:40:42 -!- asiekierka has joined.
16:42:21 <Ilari> APNIC biggest free block: 2M. Major blocks possible: 2M: 1, 1M: 7, 512k: 27, 256k: 89, 128k: 215, 64k: 511.
16:42:22 -!- elliott has joined.
16:44:32 <elliott> 01:25:57 <Gregor> Partial differential equations is where math started ignoring our safe word and things got a bit unpleasant.
16:44:36 <oerjan> you'll find out soon enough
16:45:27 <elliott> 04:26:11 <Lymia> How exactly does terminfo work anyways.
16:45:27 <elliott> 04:27:50 <Sgeo> I really don't feel like cleaning up dog vomit right now.
16:46:08 <elliott> 05:49:36 <coppro> I have met someone whose wife is a 2
16:46:26 <oerjan> took me an eternity to get that character too, somehow my character map had disappeared from the usual spot in the program menu
16:46:49 <Gregor> = alt-o-" = come on people use compose keys :P
16:46:54 <elliott> oerjan: Get tuomov's Compose file thing :P
16:46:56 -!- cheater99 has joined.
16:47:02 <Lymia> How exactly does one use terminfo
16:47:33 <Gregor> I think the usual answer is "by using curses instead" :P
16:48:16 * elliott skips over shakespeare talk
16:48:25 <elliott> he is not called Erdös ffs
16:48:44 <oerjan> i can do ö quite easily
16:49:16 <elliott> 06:45:56 <augur> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/puzzles/
16:49:34 <elliott> also broken images :) dunno if that's intentional or not
16:49:38 -!- pingveno has quit (Quit: leaving).
16:49:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
16:50:42 <Ilari> Okay, other RIRs, major allocations, last 30 days: AFRINIC, 512k to South Africa. RIPE NCC: 256k to Italy, 256k to Turkey, 256k to Netherlands, 256k to Poland. All the other RIRs combined can't match APNIC in allocations.
16:51:10 -!- cheater99 has quit (Client Quit).
16:51:45 -!- cheater99 has joined.
16:52:08 <elliott> 13:02:17 <fizzie> There should be some sort of an "Erdös number preservation society" that would try to promote co-authored papers between young, healthy mathematicians and aging, low-Erdös-number mathematicians, to keep people with low numbers available for as long as possible.
16:52:26 <oerjan> unicode has made people so picky
16:52:43 <elliott> I demand shutup be unbanned
16:53:00 <elliott> oerjan: ffs, I already agreed to the compromise
16:53:42 <oerjan> which is why i implemented a sound and reasonable policy to handle this, see the rest of the logs
16:53:48 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | And another?.
16:53:49 -!- antioptbot has set topic: Yeah, well I want an Erds number of 1! *gets robe and wizard hat* | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
16:53:56 <elliott> oerjan: the policy is not sound and reasonable.
16:54:14 <oerjan> well i may have been a _tad_ ironic
16:54:52 <elliott> oerjan: well, you could get rid of antioptbot and I could implement the compromise today, or I could just keep making optbot work indirectly to counter antioptbot, and never implement the compromise.
16:54:52 <optbot> elliott: arbitrarily big, sure, but finite things are usually closed under operations
16:55:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:55:30 <elliott> oerjan: you already banned antiantioptbot, so "I'm not taking a stance here" isn't really a reply.
16:55:44 <oerjan> i didn't say i wasn't taking a stance
16:55:53 <elliott> oerjan: then that is my position
16:56:29 <oerjan> elliott: YOU ARE NO FUN
16:56:52 -!- pingveno has joined.
16:56:55 <elliott> oerjan: i'm not interested in drama, and Gregor has just created more.
16:57:15 <oerjan> elliott: i'll ban antioptbot the moment you implement the fix
16:57:36 <elliott> oerjan: Then I'd rather rework optbot to fool antioptbot.
16:58:14 <oerjan> elliott: for once i'm trying to _not_ be serious in response to the silliness here and you suddenly demand i be
16:59:13 <oerjan> btw your fooling needs to be clever; reverting antioptbot's topic changes will be considered evading the antiantioptbot ban >:D
17:00:01 <elliott> oerjan: I am not interested in implementing a compromise given by somebody who actively makes related administrative actions but does not ban a bot that disrupts the operation of the bot in question.
17:00:22 <Ilari> Holy shit: APNIC (in about last 30 days): 30.4M. All the other RIRs _combined_: 5.4M.
17:01:16 <Ilari> Unless some other RIR has mega-allocation for today, that figure is going to look even more lopsided tomorrow.
17:01:44 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, actively makes related administrative actions?
17:01:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: banned antiantioptbot
17:01:57 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
17:02:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Honestly, you're in such a ridiculous state of high dudgeon.
17:02:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not the one who instigated drama here, Gregor is.
17:02:16 -!- optbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:02:26 -!- optbot has joined.
17:02:26 -!- optbot has changed nick to x3gp6amaTOPIC.
17:03:07 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you created optbot and have neither implemented the compromise nor taken it offline.
17:03:07 -!- x3gp6amaTOPIC has changed nick to optbotPRIVMSG.
17:03:07 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*antiantio@*.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net.
17:03:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: When I agreed to the compromise I was FUCKING TIRED.
17:03:24 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
17:03:39 <elliott> Fuck you, I don't spend every minute of my day changing optbot.
17:03:39 <optbotPRIVMSG> elliott: interpreter might let us support more languages
17:03:46 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, would it have killed you to take down optbot for the night?
17:03:46 <optbotPRIVMSG> Phantom_Hoover: Oh well... De gustibus no est disputandum, I guess.
17:04:01 <elliott> oerjan: that doesn't change the fact that you've still made decisions
17:04:13 -!- optbotPRIVMSG has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:04:24 -!- optbot has joined.
17:04:24 -!- optbot has changed nick to uuc7f8fwTOPIC.
17:04:24 -!- uuc7f8fwTOPIC has changed nick to optbot.
17:05:08 -!- optbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:05:21 -!- optbot has joined.
17:05:21 -!- optbot has changed nick to rlzf2s4d.
17:05:21 -!- rlzf2s4d has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | I have a system for jumps and absolute pointer-movements.
17:05:21 -!- rlzf2s4d has changed nick to optbot.
17:06:25 <elliott> oerjan: The agreement was that optbot's operation would continue unimpinged if I implemented the compromise in a reasonable timeframe; this has obviously not happened. All antioptbot does is create drama over the fact that - what? I haven't adjusted it for, like, a whole day?
17:06:25 <optbot> elliott: I also plan on making it possible to remove all the current regex'es and define your own
17:06:58 <oerjan> elliott: _i_ wasn't impinging on optbot
17:06:59 <optbot> oerjan: I rather like it
17:07:30 <elliott> oerjan: Are you saying that optbot's operation was (before this hack) unimpinged?
17:07:55 <elliott> oerjan: And really, you basically are; you banned antiantioptbot but won't ban antioptbot, which is as close to tacit approval of the impingement as you can get.
17:08:21 <oerjan> elliott: i was implementing a silly random rule
17:08:45 <elliott> oerjan: A silly random rule that AFAICT amounts to "antioptbot stays"
17:09:00 <oerjan> which in retrospect was a bad idea. i thought certain people here _liked_ silliness.
17:09:09 <elliott> oerjan: Applying silliness to idiotic drama?
17:09:11 <oerjan> well that _was_ the random outcome
17:09:45 <elliott> If you want a dramaless compromise (does Gregor have nothing better to complain about?), ban the stupid anti- bot; otherwise I can't see any reason to implement a compromise if this is just going to turn into an idiotic botwar.
17:09:54 <Lymia> Would you kill me if I brought in a stronger antioptbot?
17:09:59 <elliott> Fucking non-linear message authoring.
17:10:46 <oerjan> Lymia: i just unbanned antiantioptbot, in case you didn't notice
17:10:59 <oerjan> apparently this didn't stop elliott
17:11:22 <elliott> oerjan: If you think unbanning antiantioptbot is going to "stop" me, I question whether you're actually reading anything I say.
17:11:44 -!- Zuu has joined.
17:11:51 <oerjan> elliott: also i find your complaints about drama immensely hypocritical.
17:12:13 <elliott> oerjan: Sorry -- from now on I will try and create as much drama as possible, the alternative is being a hypocrite.
17:12:40 <oerjan> elliott: you are certainly living by it, at least
17:12:51 -!- optbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | I don't see how it could, I'm not doing anything disallowed by the C standard so unless it's listed as unsafe in the compiler docs it should be fine.
17:12:52 -!- antioptbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | I have a system for jumps and absolute pointer-movements.
17:13:16 <elliott> oerjan: I fixed my bot because despite you clearly wanting it to be broken you won't actually ban it.
17:13:50 <Lymia> Who's bot is optbot?
17:14:09 <elliott> oerjan: Your actions amount to tacit approval of antioptbot breaking my bot, so clearly you don't want optbot, yet you haven't banned it for some reason, so I will continue to fix my bot.
17:14:09 <optbot> elliott: and give the function the arguments we get
17:14:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
17:14:23 <elliott> I assume "you are certainly living by it" was you referring to me fixing optbot.
17:14:23 <optbot> elliott: it's worthless
17:14:29 -!- antiantioptbot2 has joined.
17:14:53 -!- antiantioptbot2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:14:55 -!- optbot has changed nick to zb1gf9xx.
17:14:55 -!- zb1gf9xx has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | never used fortran.
17:14:55 -!- zb1gf9xx has changed nick to optbot.
17:15:04 <elliott> So why didn't it work a second ago. Oh well.
17:17:48 <Ilari> Whee. Picture of Nuclear Power Plant exploding. :-/
17:18:26 -!- superantioptbot has joined.
17:18:30 -!- optbot has changed nick to ab6etp0v.
17:18:30 -!- ab6etp0v has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | tombom, thanks :).
17:18:30 -!- ab6etp0v has changed nick to optbot.
17:18:30 -!- superantioptbot has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/ | never used fortran.
17:18:36 -!- superantioptbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:18:45 <Ilari> http://www.theoildrum.com/node/7661?nocomments
17:19:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
17:19:15 <elliott> the plant did not explode, only the outer containment building.
17:19:25 <oerjan> <elliott> I assume "you are certainly living by it" was you referring to me fixing optbot. <-- no it was referring to your _still_ incessant drama queen babbling.
17:19:26 <optbot> oerjan: Is it worth using powered minecarts?
17:19:45 <elliott> oerjan: Define "incessant drama queen babbling"; you mean "not dropping the subject"?
17:20:05 <oerjan> you are apparently incapable of recognizing in yourself the same faults that you complain of in others.
17:20:24 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:21:57 <oerjan> i appear to have painted myself into a corner here.
17:22:16 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
17:22:36 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*antioptbo@*.wmiscable.net.
17:22:58 <Lymia> So can I insert the super-mode of antioptbot now?
17:23:29 <cheater99> oerjan: will that fix elliott's incessant drama queen babbling?
17:24:09 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*cheater@*.adsl.alicedsl.de.
17:24:17 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*optbot@208.78.103.*.
17:24:34 <Lymia> I think myndzi missed.
17:24:58 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a consequence of different justification and my long nick.
17:25:19 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
17:25:28 <Lymia> My client's set up to align all text.
17:25:38 <Lymia> With no reguard to the person's nickname.
17:34:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:39:00 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
17:39:15 -!- Herobrine has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:40:46 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*cheater@*.adsl.alicedsl.de.
17:42:17 -!- asiekierka_ has joined.
17:42:42 -!- cheater99 has joined.
17:43:29 -!- asiekierka__ has joined.
17:48:00 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
17:52:10 -!- Behold has joined.
17:52:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
17:54:03 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:56:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:01:05 -!- asiekierka_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:01:06 -!- asiekierka__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:05:29 -!- Gregor has set topic: Yeah, well I want an Erds number of 1! *gets robe and wizard hat* | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
18:06:29 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:06:33 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
18:11:49 -!- mdivhx has joined.
18:13:54 -!- azaq23 has joined.
18:14:25 -!- azaq231 has joined.
18:14:28 -!- azaq23 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:17:10 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
18:28:04 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: that was awesome
18:28:20 <oklopol> i wish there was a whole game on that concept
18:29:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit, I keep typing in the URL for the Herobrine logs.
18:29:26 <cheater99> the pinball at the end was the best
18:29:39 <cheater99> it was like the most amazing culmination ever
18:29:48 <cheater99> speaking of crazy stuff, has anyone here watched The Other Guys?
18:29:53 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, like, "you're an ordinary man, living in New York, until... FRICTION IS NEGATED"
18:30:03 <cheater99> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBsJUT-K0YA
18:30:44 <Phantom_Hoover> "You must get to your girlfriend's house because you have the standard video game protagonist priorities."
18:31:10 <coppro> ais523: Yeah, I definitely should.
18:31:30 * Phantom_Hoover checks if he accidentally ignored ai... wait, he's not even online.
18:34:27 <oklopol> saneless in the head that dude.
18:34:38 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:37:06 <Gregor> http://recruitcoders.com/ Slogan: "Reach for competence". Worst slogan ever?
18:37:53 <oerjan> s/for/beyond/, would that make it better or worse: discuss.
18:40:40 <oerjan> hm where did "forward to the future" come from again
18:41:46 <oerjan> dammit that phrase is just too common
18:42:02 <Gregor> Look backward to the future!
18:42:31 <oerjan> hm i have a hunch it may have been douglas adams or terry pratchett
18:44:08 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, although by troll logic that is blatantly false.
18:45:15 <oklopol> what's so funny about forward to the future?
18:45:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Because it's either stupidly true or hilariously false (if you're a troll).
18:46:04 <oerjan> it was from Johnny and the Dead, apparently
18:46:56 <oerjan> the motto of Amalgamated Consolidated Holdings
18:47:56 <oerjan> sorry, *United Amalgamated Consolidated Holdings
18:47:58 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:47:59 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: conclusion: Yakety Sax makes everything funnier than it already was.
18:49:06 <oerjan> quintopia: this is _not_ news.
18:50:37 <Gregor> It's not hugely redundant, as one implies the other but not vice-versa.
18:50:50 <Gregor> As "forward" does not imply the fourth dimension :P
18:51:09 <quintopia> oerjan: it's news to me. i can't wait to see tsunami footage set to yakety sax >.>
18:52:10 <oerjan> Gregor: it is, however, the kind of phrase that becomes a cliché the first time it's used
18:53:14 <oerjan> which is also the case with that "reach for competence"
18:59:42 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:00:58 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, nah, the humour there is the fact that competence is really not something you should have to reach for.
19:07:29 <oklopol> i didn't get that you didn't get that they didn't get that competence is really not something you should have to reach for
19:07:33 -!- Zuu has joined.
19:08:13 <oklopol> i should do my group theory homework
19:08:21 <oklopol> but what if it's too hard? maybe i'll do it later
19:09:18 <oerjan> have you read my :()^ construction at the Underload page? it's almost group theory.
19:09:46 <oklopol> think that'd help me with the exercises?
19:10:06 <oklopol> it's representation theory
19:12:33 <quintopia> oh you finally wrote up the minimization
19:12:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:13:26 -!- Behold has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:16:54 -!- augur has joined.
19:26:00 -!- impomatic has joined.
19:26:01 -!- icaro_ has joined.
19:26:16 -!- icaro_ has left (?).
19:27:03 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:29:01 <Ilari> Allocations in February/March according to latest joint RIR delegated file: APNIC: 36 302 848. RIPE: 10 034 336. ARIN: 5 760 768. AFRINIC: 629 760. LACNIC: 373 504.
19:31:53 <Ilari> At this rate, RIPE would last about 3-4 months.
19:34:42 -!- pumpkin has joined.
19:34:42 -!- pumpkin has quit (Changing host).
19:34:42 -!- pumpkin has joined.
19:38:03 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:44:05 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:48:11 -!- augur has joined.
19:55:59 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
19:56:17 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:08:22 * Sgeo_ rages at a fun looking OpenCourseWare course not having all of the lecture notes
20:11:47 * Sgeo_ checks out University of Reddit
20:12:00 * Sgeo_ mindboggles at there being a course on IRC
20:20:09 <Sgeo_> Multivariable calculus is listed on OCW Scholar's page
20:20:09 -!- coppro has joined.
20:20:29 <Sgeo_> "OCW Scholar courses are designed for independent learners who have few additional resources available to them"
20:20:58 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:21:05 <Sgeo_> Is Khan Academy's differential equations stuff and OCW's multivariable calculus viable to do at the same time
20:23:22 <impomatic> Unusual name for a Forth compiler http://code.google.com/p/durexforth
20:28:57 <Phantom_Hoover> (Seriously, if you haven't even *touched* on abstract algebra by the age of 21, you're headed in entirely the wrong direction; you are more than capable of handling it.)
20:31:40 <quintopia> does gmail export everything in their web interface
20:32:01 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:38:38 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
20:39:18 <quintopia> apparently there are a lot of immature third party APIs
20:42:16 <Phantom_Hoover> You mean they use lots of exclamation marks and throw tantrums all the time?
20:43:10 <quintopia> AnD aLl ThE mEtHoDs ArE nAmEd LiKe ThIs
20:44:19 <quintopia> i really want an email client that forwards all of gmail's features but requires no mouse.
20:56:39 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:02:03 <quintopia> Gregor: the katamari hack is so much awesomer than websplat. how come you couldn't be so awesome?
21:03:02 -!- jcp has joined.
21:03:44 <Gregor> Wow, every Google result for "sobblecopter" is me. I knew I invented it, but I didn't think that I /solely/ had invented it.
21:04:43 <quintopia> tbf, websplat is more fun to play and doesn't slow ff3.x to a crawl :P
21:05:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, I have concluded that tau is innately inferior to pi because writing \tau/2 is harder than writing 2\pi.
21:14:04 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.17/20110121150729]).
21:14:17 <pikhq_> Strange, seems to me they have the same number of strokes.
21:15:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed, but it requires line spacing to do properly which is horrible to deal with when you're writing in pen.
21:15:59 -!- mdivhx has left (?).
21:16:16 <pikhq_> Quick, what's a quarter of a circle in radians? >:D
21:16:40 <pikhq_> And that makes sense how?
21:17:02 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not that retarded, and changing it isn't worth the effort.
21:17:10 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:17:33 <Phantom_Hoover> It's like calling complex numbers imaginary: if it's enough to hang you up, mathematics isn't the thing for you.
21:17:58 <pikhq_> "Illogical things shouldn't bother you in math"
21:18:12 <oklopol> it's not at all like calling complex numbers imaginary
21:19:17 -!- bitmsk has joined.
21:19:18 <ais523> some complex numbers are imaginary!
21:19:25 <ais523> like 2i (or 2j if you're an engineer)
21:19:38 <Phantom_Hoover> It was a rather poor choice of constant to start with, but not actually *stupid*.
21:20:02 <Phantom_Hoover> It just caught on before radius became prevalent over diameter.
21:21:30 <oklopol> it's not stupid, it's absolutely retarded
21:22:35 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Which of these things is not like the other: 1/2gt^2, 1/2kx^2, 1/2mv^2, \pi*r^2
21:23:16 <Phantom_Hoover> The former 3 are all integrals, although admittedly pi*r^2 might be derivable from that.
21:23:21 <oklopol> to have to remember whether it's half a turn or two turns
21:23:39 <oklopol> always have to get my math books
21:23:58 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: None of them are integrals, but all of them can be derived *via* an integral.
21:24:58 <pikhq_> Integral of 2\pi*r, of course.
21:27:23 <pikhq_> You fucking know the answer.
21:27:35 <pikhq_> Now stop being thicker than a nuclear reactor's containing wall.
21:28:00 <fizzie> But the exp(i*pi) + 1 = 0 thing; there was some sort of "most beautiful formula in mathematics" poster with that on it, on the wall in the maths classroom in high school. That's going to be suboptimal as "exp(i*tau) = 1" or some-such.
21:28:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I love it when people talk about that equation without even explaining it.
21:29:19 <fizzie> In other news, floating-point numbers are depressing:
21:29:20 <fizzie> ans = -1.0000e+00 + 1.2246e-16i
21:29:24 <oklopol> what, integral of a polynomial?
21:29:30 <fizzie> (Serves me right for using an engineer's tool.)
21:30:04 <pikhq_> It's a hell of a lot easier to just show the equation than to explain what e^{i\theta} is in the general case, and why it matters. :P
21:30:59 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, anyway, I don't *disagree* that pi is a poor choice of constant, just that it's not worth the effort to change it.
21:31:08 <oklopol> what does e have to do with this?
21:31:12 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
21:31:12 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
21:31:12 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
21:31:26 <pikhq_> oklopol: e^(i*pi)+1=0; it's Euler's identity.
21:31:52 <oklopol> fizzie: exp(i*tau) = 1 is much prettier
21:32:00 <oklopol> pikhq_: yes, what does that have to do with anything?
21:32:05 <fizzie> oklopol: No it's not; it lacks the 0.
21:32:18 <fizzie> And writing it as 1+0 is just silly.
21:32:20 <pikhq_> fizzie: exp(i*tau)-1=0
21:32:28 <oklopol> fizzie: it might be syntactically uglier, but conceptually it's much nicer that way
21:32:40 <oklopol> yeah you even get a minus!
21:32:44 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: No I don't. It's right there.
21:32:55 <pikhq_> Between the "-" and the "=".
21:33:12 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Fuck off. :P
21:33:25 <Phantom_Hoover> (Minus signs, now there are something which shouldn't exist in their current form.)
21:33:42 <fizzie> But the point is (according to the poster, anyway) that there's 0, 1, i, e, pi; and +, *, ^; in it. Nobody mentioned a - anywhere.
21:33:45 <Phantom_Hoover> *somethings... no... erm... I have no idea what that should be.
21:33:50 <oklopol> but seriously, can someone explain where e came to play here :D
21:34:07 <fizzie> (Of course the poster didn't exactly explain why those things make it pretty.)
21:34:11 <oklopol> suddenly, fizzie and Phantom_Hoover started talking about e at the same time
21:34:14 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:34:30 <pikhq_> oklopol: ... *Well*, Euler's identity is commonly cited as being an extraordinarily beautiful equation in mathematics.
21:34:43 <Phantom_Hoover> It's almost like there's some kind of transfer of information between us.
21:35:02 <pikhq_> oklopol: And using tau instead of pi as your proportionality constant for circles changes Euler's identity a bit.
21:35:22 <oklopol> but why did you suddenly start talking about e?
21:35:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps in the form of a public IRC channel allowing one of us to see what the other has said and react accordingly.
21:35:36 <pikhq_> You either get e^(i*tau/2)+1=0 (if you want it to be an equivalent formula) or e^(i*tau)=1 (if you want a roughly as-elegant formula)
21:36:30 <pikhq_> oklopol: Because e^(i*pi)+1=0. What more do you want from us, an explanation of how that works? (which I can offer with ease)
21:36:40 <oklopol> "<fizzie> But the exp(i*pi) + 1 = 0 thing; there was some sort of "most beautiful formula in mathematics" poster with that on it, on the wall in the maths classroom in high school. That's going to be suboptimal as "exp(i*tau) = 1" or some-such." "<Phantom_Hoover> I love it when people talk about that equation without even explaining it." <<< was this an answer to FIZZIE?
21:37:31 <oklopol> i thought pikhq_'s integrals of polynomials somehow inspired you and fizzie to simultaneously start talking about e
21:37:50 <oklopol> because he had to have integrated the polynomial using the identity exp(i*pi) + 1 = 0
21:39:49 * quintopia votes tau as nicer than pi, but agrees that no one cares.
21:40:52 <oklopol> well quarter-turns are the most used angle
21:41:14 <oklopol> half-turns aren't even an angle, they are a fucking line
21:41:28 <oklopol> ^ that's actually the best argument ever for this pi / tau thing
21:41:30 <quintopia> yes, but then you have to have 4s everywhere you have 2s now. which is just ugly
21:41:35 -!- bitmsk has left (?).
21:41:46 <oklopol> 4 is _surprisingly_ pretty
21:41:47 <quintopia> pi was chosen as the first letter in "perimeter"
21:41:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Requesting that pi be changed is failing to see the forest for the trees.
21:42:04 <quintopia> so pi should be the length of the perimeter of a unit circle
21:42:06 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: not requesting that pi be changed is being a retard tho
21:42:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Seriously, you have the vast edifice of wrongness that is mathematics education, and you go for *that*?
21:42:19 <fizzie> oklopol: Also http://p.zem.fi/ji0w (and why does the rendering change if I reload that)
21:42:32 <quintopia> but it's not like having pi like it is hurts anyone
21:42:35 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: can't i go for both?
21:42:48 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: So, your argument is: "Some things are much worse. Therefore there is no point in fixing this."
21:43:08 <oklopol> i don't do complex analysis, i don't mind breaking backwards-compatibility and rendering mathematicians useless for a few years.
21:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, because the effort would be better spent on so many other things.
21:43:29 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
21:43:45 <pikhq_> Especially if you extrapolate to other things. "There are starving children in Africa, therefore there is no point in stopping you from beating your wife."
21:43:54 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: like having to multiply by two all the time?
21:44:03 <oklopol> i don't wanna spend every waking our multiplying by two
21:44:16 <oklopol> shifting bits is for computers
21:44:21 <fizzie> I don't want to wake up and find oklopol furiously multiplying by two in the corner.
21:46:53 -!- bitmsk has joined.
21:47:37 <oklopol> anyhow i don't really care if pi is changed or not, conventions don't matter at all in mathematics, because you only need to use them in the short reports you write to other mathematicians (say publications), not in your own work, and if you write say a book you can just choose your own convention.
21:48:18 <pikhq_> You can always just write "let \tau=2\pi" and go from there, anyways.
21:48:19 <oklopol> but it certainly is a particularly retarded convention
21:50:36 <oklopol> but e should totally be 3*e
21:50:59 <oklopol> then, we'd get division and 2 in the equation
21:52:06 <quintopia> i heard someone argue that \int 1/x = ln x + C is somehow more fundamental a concept than the actual value of euler's constant.
21:52:14 <oklopol> or even that ^3 so we get cube root and 3
21:54:33 <oklopol> the value of euler's constant is not very interesting, no, the exponential function is interesting
21:55:24 <oklopol> e is just what it does on reals
21:56:07 <oklopol> that is, we can show that the exponential function corresponds to the conventional exponentials w.r.t. base a certain base e
21:56:32 <oklopol> "<Phantom_Hoover> e should be expressed as the polynomial expansion." <<< what?
21:56:59 <pikhq_> All that's really interesting about e is that the integral of e^x is e^x. Everything else really derives from there.
21:57:26 <pikhq_> Oh, and the derivative, obviously.
21:57:27 <oklopol> oh well that's outside my understanding, but i thought you were referring to the exponential function \sum 1/(n!) * x^n which is obviously its own derivative
21:57:51 <oklopol> and can easily be shown to converge for all x
21:58:16 <oklopol> when you look at its behavior on reals, you note that it's just exponentiation (well assuming you know how to do the algebra, i'm sure it's a bit tedious)
21:58:35 <oklopol> euler's identity is of course rather trivial to see
21:58:45 <oklopol> i don't get why people praise it so much
21:59:06 <pikhq_> Of course, that infinity series is nothing more than the fairly obvious Taylor series.
21:59:38 <oklopol> yeah the taylor serious i gave
22:00:13 <pikhq_> Correcting myself, there. :P
22:00:32 <oklopol> okay yeah then also i should've nothing said.
22:00:51 <pikhq_> It all comes down to e being the number such that d/dx(e^x)=d^x, and everything else of interest is a consequence of that.
22:01:13 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:02:30 <oklopol> actually i'm not at all sure euler's identity is easy to prove from the taylor series definition!
22:03:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, you also need to know the Taylor series for sin and cos, but they're easy too.
22:03:17 <oklopol> you mean use some geometrical intuition?
22:03:28 <oklopol> then it's of course trivial, but that's not a proof
22:03:55 <oklopol> i've seen it so i know it's not very long, but i don't really see how it's done
22:04:02 <oklopol> yeah that's basically by definition
22:04:28 <pikhq_> You plug in "ix" to the Taylor series and do some simplification, and you get the Taylor series for cos(x) plus i times the Taylor series for sin(x).
22:04:37 <ais523> it's actually just alternate terms
22:05:00 <ais523> as in, every second term of the series for e^ix is either a member of the series for cos x, or for i sin x
22:05:15 <oklopol> i just recall you use every second term and then some -1 shit
22:05:26 <quintopia> i just noticed that patashu posted in the tau manifesto thread on xkcd fora. where is patashu?
22:05:36 <pikhq_> sin(x)=1-x^2/2!+x^4/4!-x^6/6!+...; cos(x)=x-x^3/3!+x^5/5!-x^7/7!+...
22:05:52 <ais523> quintopia: he's relatively active in at least one esolang-unrelated forum I'm also relatively active in
22:06:00 <ais523> although mostly by reading
22:06:13 <pikhq_> And e^ix is, of course, 1+ix+(ix)^2/2!＋(ix)^3/3!+...
22:06:33 <oklopol> i'm wondering where the pi disappears
22:06:33 <pikhq_> =1+ix-x^2/2!+ix^3/3!+..
22:07:07 <Phantom_Hoover> "sin/cos" meaning "sin and cos", of course, not tan :P
22:07:24 <oklopol> e^(i*pi) = cos(pi) + i sin(pi), then what?
22:07:25 <quintopia> ais523: since you're here can you tell me how to make apt-get work again? dpkg freezes trying to unpack this package and i can't remove the package without it saying "hey you should finish installing this first derp!"
22:07:33 <pikhq_> =(1-x^2/2+x^4/4!-x^6/6!+...)+i(x-x^3/3!+x^5/5!-x^7/7!+...)
22:07:53 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: yeah, that's what we're trying to prove
22:08:10 <oklopol> if you use geometrical intuition or already know the answer, of course it's easy :D
22:08:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, if you want it from, like, really really basic principles, it won't fit on IRC.
22:09:27 <ais523> quintopia: try to reconfigure the package first (dpkg --configure packagename); if that doesn't work, use dpkg --remove --force-reinstreq package to force an uninstall
22:09:31 <pikhq_> You define sin and cos, as had been done by the ancient Greeks, and then it follows trivially.
22:09:38 <oklopol> well that's the part you need to prove, we haven't done anything yet except rewrite e as two more complicated-looking functions
22:09:53 <ais523> (forcing an uninstall is a bad idea normally as it doesn't guarantee to uninstall cleanly, but it may be the only option if the package is really screwed up)
22:10:03 <pikhq_> oklopol: Okay, are you seriously doing this?
22:10:14 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Start from ZFC.
22:10:28 <oklopol> pikhq_: well i just realized it isn't easy to do, and you disagreed
22:10:52 <pikhq_> oklopol: It's easy to do because knowledge of sin and cos was already available to Euler.
22:11:03 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, basically nothing is easy to do if you demand it be derived from scratch.
22:11:31 <pikhq_> oklopol: And, indeed, about as obvious and readily doable as arithmetic or algebra.
22:11:46 <oklopol> well i'm asking you to explain how it comes from the definitions, and you haven't even told me what definition you use for pi
22:12:15 <oklopol> if you use the geometrical definition, that's fine, but then euler's identity is just a definition
22:12:18 <quintopia> ais523: dpkg: error processing streamripper (--configure): package streamripper is not ready for configuration cannot configure (current status `half-installed')
22:12:29 <oklopol> + a bit of trivial algebra you already mentioned
22:13:56 <pikhq_> oklopol: Just extrapolation to absurdity of what you're already doing.
22:14:30 <pikhq_> It's a bit like saying "Well, how do you know that *NULL is a segfault? Start by defining C."
22:14:53 <oklopol> well it certainly was that, but saying something is easy, and skipping the part where the actual work is because "it's just zfc stuff" is sort of stupid.
22:15:11 <quintopia> ais523: finally found the option to force-remove it
22:15:15 <pikhq_> We've already demonstrated that it was likely easy to Euler.
22:15:23 <pikhq_> Keep in mind, *he already had cosine and sine available*.
22:15:31 <pikhq_> And the Taylor series.
22:15:39 <oklopol> well i don't really know what framework he was doing shit in
22:15:46 <ais523> quintopia: I did tell you what the option was in the same line
22:16:29 <pikhq_> It really was just a matter of going "Huh, wonder what e^ix is. Let's try this."
22:16:33 <quintopia> the correct command was dpkg --force-remove-reinstreq -r <package>
22:17:01 <quintopia> (there is an extra remove in there for who know what reason)
22:18:30 <pikhq_> oklopol: He had calculus, he had power series, he had Taylor series, he had algebra, he had geometry, he had trigonometry. Now why do you want us to define what Euler would have taken for granted 300 years ago?
22:18:52 <pikhq_> For the purpose of showing that it wasn't hard for Euler.
22:19:05 <oklopol> because i don't the definition of pi we're using?
22:19:24 <quintopia> someone suggest a simple sound recorder app that saves arbitrarily long files as mp3. "
22:19:35 <quintopia> "simple" is defined as "small and doesn't break a lot"
22:20:05 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-12249172#_blank
22:20:06 <oklopol> i seriously don't know what pi is
22:20:20 <fizzie> quintopia: If by "extra remove" you mean that there's both --force-remove-reinstreq and -r, that's because categorically the "--force-things" flags only specify things that can or can not be done, while the "-r" is the actual action.
22:20:20 <oklopol> i just know some of its properties
22:20:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Does noöne in that article have any slight doubts about *starting paedo hunts against anyone with unusually good grammar*?
22:20:55 <quintopia> fizzie: no i mean the extra string "remove" inside "--force-remove-reinstreq" since its a flag that's only gonna get used when removing anyway...
22:21:07 <pikhq_> Congrats, the Egyptians knew more about geometry than you when they were building the pyramids.
22:21:17 <pikhq_> And they thought the Sun was a god.
22:21:36 -!- augur has joined.
22:21:47 <quintopia> "--force-noreinstreq" would be clearer
22:22:22 <fizzie> quintopia: That doesn't really make any sense. Force to do what about packages in the "reinstreq" state?
22:22:49 <quintopia> didn't know it was a package state
22:23:09 <quintopia> i was thinking "force there to be no reinstallation requirement"
22:23:35 <quintopia> so possibly "--force-ignore-reinstreq"
22:23:47 <fizzie> Well, that would make sense.
22:24:29 <fizzie> Also regarding the other thing, sox (or the "rec" command specialization of it) might work for long files.
22:25:29 <fizzie> It has quite a few options, so the man page is bit on the long side.
22:25:53 <quintopia> running dpkg with debug didn't show any obvious errors...
22:26:30 <fizzie> At least some sox builds I've seen do MP3; but I'm not sure if they all do, due to patents and such.
22:27:13 <quintopia> there is apparently a tool called saydate that doesn't do anything but play the date over the sound card via TTS
22:28:00 <pikhq_> o.O' Some of the MP3 patents expire in 2017.
22:28:17 <pikhq_> MP3 *itself* was first released in 1993.
22:28:26 <pikhq_> Someone actually got a patent on MP3 after it had been out for 4 years.
22:29:07 <pikhq_> Oh, wait, sorry, *1991*.
22:29:16 -!- azaq231 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
22:29:46 <pikhq_> quintopia: Moot. It's unpatentable outside of the US.
22:30:14 -!- variable has joined.
22:30:30 -!- cpressey has joined.
22:30:51 <pikhq_> But somehow they got patents anyways.
22:31:04 * pikhq_ votes we nuke patent law.
22:32:07 <quintopia> sox is really cool and really weird
22:32:51 <quintopia> but i don't see how one can crop an audio file at just the right place with it
22:33:06 <fizzie> Typically with the "trim" filter.
22:33:20 <oklopol> have i told about that time i wrote some python code while having sex
22:33:35 <quintopia> like actually typed it, or mentally composed it?
22:33:49 <fizzie> "sox input.wav output.wav trim 20 30" == extract 30 seconds starting from second 20.
22:34:09 <fizzie> (Can be specified in samples too for more accuracy.)
22:34:16 <quintopia> fizzie: how do you say "cut 36 samples off the end of the file"?
22:34:29 <oklopol> quintopia: actually typed it.
22:34:54 <quintopia> oklopol: that sounds like the nerdiest thing ever. what did the code do
22:35:18 -!- cpressey has set topic: Try out yoob @ http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D and http://208.78.103.223/esoteric/.
22:35:41 <oklopol> i said "i can't have sex because i have to code this thing. unless it's fine if i do both" and it was; it then soon became just sex so i guess i was cheated out of a nice coding time
22:35:48 <cpressey> oklopol: i assume the goat was not amused
22:35:58 <oklopol> the code was just some part of some silly game or something, don't remember
22:36:28 <cpressey> does lambdabot let you leave messages for people in here?
22:36:35 <ais523> now I'm going to have to ask what yoob does
22:36:40 <ais523> to know if I should click on the link
22:36:43 <ais523> cpressey: memoserv does
22:36:46 <ais523> although some people miss the message
22:36:52 <cpressey> ais523: it's an implementation of 14 esolangs in a java applet
22:36:58 <ais523> oh, that does sound awesome
22:37:09 <cpressey> 13 or 14 or some number like that
22:37:15 <fizzie> quintopia: Well, uh... "sox input.wav output.wav reverse : trim 36s : reverse" might work.
22:37:23 <ais523> even though java applets officially no longer exist
22:37:37 <fizzie> (The "trim" filter doesn't take end-relative offsets, unfortunately.)
22:37:41 <cpressey> i know lambdabot can leave messages for people in #haskell, i just don't know about here (actually i have no reason to believe it wouldn't here, but i forget the syntax)
22:37:43 <quintopia> fizzie: sounds lame. trim -36s seems more logical
22:38:21 <ais523> cpressey: is the thing all those languages have in common that they're two-dimensional?
22:38:24 <cpressey> ais523: well, darn. what have they been replaced with? btw two of the esolangs in yoob right now are yours (BackFlip and Black)
22:38:38 <fizzie> quintopia: Sure, it's just that most of sox is written to work with potentially endless streams, so you can't find the concept of an end very often.
22:38:41 <ais523> cpressey: they've been replaced by Java Web Start, which is a bad idea on many levels
22:38:45 <ais523> although not completely useless
22:38:56 <ais523> mostly, because not only is it not a straight replacement, it's something completely different
22:39:04 <cpressey> ais523: yes; although the framework isn't restricted to 2d languages, it has better support for them than for text-based
22:39:05 <quintopia> fizzie: so what does reverse do? :P
22:39:35 <fizzie> That's not part of the "most".
22:39:47 <cpressey> ais523: i remember asking you about that. well, ... as long as applets continue to work. the current implementation can be run locally too, i'm sure i could JWS-ify it if need be
22:40:35 <pikhq_> Accelerating pace from APNIC...
22:40:37 <ais523> JWSifying something isn't normally too hard
22:40:44 <pikhq_> We may well see APNIC depletion in April.
22:40:46 <ais523> but there are so many insane design decisions
22:41:05 <ais523> the Microsoft Internet Explorer integration was a particularly stupid one, although it works (less "well") in other browsers too
22:41:20 <ais523> where "well" means "runs without confirmation on the basis that the java interp's meant to sandbox the program"
22:41:49 <ais523> which is all well and good, except that it allows things - by default - that web browsing shouldn't allow, such as creating new windows
22:42:14 <cpressey> that sounds like a step backwards, yeah
22:42:50 <fizzie> quintopia: Okay, it's a bit lame. The silence-trimming command can remove stuff from the end of the file too, not sure if you could abuse that (the syntax is quite complicated). Also possibly the :s shouldn't be there. It's not the most user-friendly program ever.
22:43:06 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
22:43:41 <quintopia> cpressey: add spiral to the list! i already have a java implementation of it lying around this hard disk somewhere...
22:43:47 <fizzie> (The : seems to be related to something where you have multiple chains of multiple effects.)
22:44:17 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
22:44:37 <cpressey> @tell Sgeo My friend says the "Chinese" characters in that dialog box of yours ( http://i.imgur.com/fT4Wm.png ) are almost certainly gibberish; many of them are too rare to occur so frequently.
22:45:47 <quintopia> man, i want something that lets you edit waveforms directly, like audacity, but without all the filters and effects and bloat. or something like windows sndrec32 without the length limitation and with the ability to save as mp3.
22:46:21 <cpressey> quintopia: http://www.quintopia.net/JSpI.java ? i'll consider it
22:46:28 <fizzie> "rec blah.mp3" is pretty close to that.
22:46:34 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:47:23 <quintopia> cpressey: i keep forgetting that my website is up. but i think there was a more recent version that fixed a bug.
22:47:32 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: can't stay long, just announcing a link in the topic and leaving a message for Sgeo
22:48:57 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: interp for a bunch of 2D esolangs
22:48:59 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: it's an implementation of 13 or 14 esolangs in a java applet
22:49:44 <Sgeo> cpressey, you have a message for me?
22:49:44 <lambdabot> Sgeo: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:50:05 <augur> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/puzzles/
22:50:30 <quintopia> cpressey: does it highlight the pointer location as it executes?
22:50:43 <augur> i have to add to those puzzles too
22:51:18 <quintopia> it basically does what my spiral gui app did then, but maybe without some spiral-specific stuff
22:51:48 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:00:36 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:02:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:06:04 <quintopia> it has language-specific stuff for every language
23:06:39 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:06:54 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:11:02 <quintopia> lol the noit o' mnain worb thing seems awesome. the > seems to serve as a maxwell's demon in the "pressure" example
23:11:09 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:13:05 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:13:20 <ais523> it is an awesome language
23:13:29 <ais523> I'm not sure what its probability of being TC is
23:13:37 <ais523> e.g., can you make an 80% BF interpreter in it with a suitable infinite program?
23:14:53 <Gregor> Is "80% BF" slang for BF without I/O?
23:16:17 <quintopia> ais523: i think you could make a BF interpreter that succeeds with probability 1 actually.
23:16:34 -!- copumpkin has joined.
23:16:48 <quintopia> you can implement arbitrary circuits in it...one of the examples is a transistor
23:18:50 <ais523> it's not a reliable transistor
23:18:57 <ais523> and doesn't act the same way as normal transistors
23:19:04 <ais523> in particular, I'm not sure if it even has a fanout above 1
23:19:24 <ais523> if the fanout's less than 1, you couldn't use it in a loop
23:19:34 <oklopol> i'm sure that's easy to explain
23:19:35 <quintopia> although as the implementation page indicates, unless we solve the wire-crossing problem, it is only TC in 3+ dimensions
23:19:36 <ais523> oklopol: the number of things you can connect the output of a circuit to
23:19:46 <ais523> that are of the same nature as the circuit itself
23:19:49 <ais523> before it starts malfunctioning
23:20:10 <ais523> typically it's somewhere between 10 and 200 for electronic circuits
23:21:42 <quintopia> i think you can get fanout 2 with nearly the same reliability of the fanout 1 version
23:21:45 -!- bitmsk has quit (Quit: Page closed).
23:22:00 <quintopia> but yeah, i see what your complaint is
23:22:49 <quintopia> however, i still stay you can get a BF interpreter with prob. 1-eps, where eps is a function of the length of time you allow for the system to "settle down" before making a measurement.
23:23:21 <quintopia> for instance you could require that a ! gets hit 1000 times before you output the result
23:24:41 <oklopol> you mean like, you can make the likelihood of an error happening decrease, as the program is executed, fast enough that altogether you get 1-e probability for the whole run being correct, for any program
23:25:08 <oklopol> because that sounds feasible enough, although i never quite understood this tcness thing
23:25:16 <ais523> something I've been wondering about: Funge-98, with the difference that all commands but ; have a 50% chance of doing nothing rather than what they're meant to do
23:25:18 <ais523> I suspect that it's still TC
23:25:22 <ais523> although much more annoying to write in
23:26:52 <quintopia> well, if you execute the program 2^n times where n is the number of instructions, you expect to get a result one of those times. and you can make the probability you don't get a result arbitrarily low by executing it enough times. therefore, i'd say that would also be at least 1-e TC.
23:27:49 <oklopol> the crucial thing in this kind of stuff is usually to make sure that the probability of making an error gets smaller and smaller
23:28:08 <oklopol> so you can have arbitrarily long runs with a constant prob of failing
23:28:22 <oklopol> since funge can modify its code, this might actually be doable
23:28:26 <Sgeo> Is it ok to learn differential equations (from Khan Academy) at the same time as multivariable calculus (from OCW)?
23:29:11 <oklopol> (Sgeo: i'd suggest reading a book instead)
23:29:25 <Sgeo> Books aren't free
23:29:53 <oklopol> there's this new thing called illegal piracy
23:30:25 <oklopol> it's like stealing but YOU are the victim
23:31:30 <quintopia> it's like stilling but John dies in the end.
23:32:29 <oklopol> Sgeo: but really it doesn't matter much what you're doing, as long as you have a long list of problems to work on
23:33:01 <Sgeo> I hate working on problems
23:33:07 <Sgeo> I guess I should force myself to though
23:33:13 <oklopol> well that's all you have to do
23:33:30 -!- variable has joined.
23:33:36 -!- variable has quit (Changing host).
23:33:36 -!- variable has joined.
23:33:45 <oklopol> well, at least that's the easiest way
23:34:47 <oklopol> also yeah differential eq's and that stuff isn't that much fun, discrete math is better
23:34:50 <Sgeo> Can I muse in here while I read?
23:35:20 <oklopol> i didn't do my group theory homework :(
23:35:23 <Sgeo> I meant, without angering everyone
23:35:36 <oklopol> Sgeo: well that i can't promise. you can't anger me that way
23:36:09 <ais523> Sgeo: everyone else does, and the people who have you on facepalm also have you on ignore
23:36:13 <ais523> so you won't annoy them
23:36:19 <oklopol> group theory is scary so i have a hard time getting started with the problems
23:36:38 <oklopol> they are usually pretty easy but they look scaaaaary
23:36:46 <Sgeo> ais523, there are people plural with me on ignore?
23:37:37 <Sgeo> I'm not sure how it makes sense to speak of origin vectors, if vectors don't have a location but just direction and magnitude
23:38:26 <oklopol> "if xi is the irreducible character of G, show that sum_{t \in G} xi(t) = 0, if xi is not the 1 character"
23:38:38 <oklopol> what the hell does that even mean?!? maybe i should open the book.
23:39:11 <oklopol> Sgeo: maybe it tells what those vectors are used for, in the context
23:40:20 <oklopol> if you define a vector to be an element of R^2, then i don't see what origin could specify. unless the set of origin vectors is {(0, 0)}
23:40:44 <Sgeo> They say that an origin vector starts at the origin
23:40:51 <Sgeo> Um, let me find it in the PDF, hold on
23:41:16 <oklopol> well then presumably they use some other definition for vector
23:41:24 <Sgeo> In the xy-plane if we place the tail of A at the origin, its head will be at the point with
23:41:24 <Sgeo> coordinates, say, (a1, a2). In this way, the coordinates of the head determine the vector A.
23:41:24 <Sgeo> When we draw A from the origin we will refer to it as an origin vector"
23:41:36 <Sgeo> I think origin vector may just be referring to the geometric view
23:42:46 <oklopol> so maybe they define vectors to be equivalence classes of lines drawn on a paper w.r.t. translation, that can be shown to be equivalent to R^2 for infinite papers
23:42:55 <Sgeo> I understand the stuff in the PDF, I don't want to watch a 38min lecture
23:44:20 <Sgeo> I skipped ahead in the video
23:44:35 <Sgeo> He's talking about dot products, which wasn't in the PDFs, but it seems to be the next session
23:44:36 <oklopol> and were you all like WHAT IS THIS SHIT OMG
23:45:02 <oklopol> do you know what dot products are?
23:45:24 <ais523> oklopol: products made by Dot, inc.
23:45:44 <Sgeo> oklopol, that's in the next session, so when I go there, I'll learn, presumably
23:46:36 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
23:46:44 <oklopol> just wondering in general, i learned the geometric content of dot products years and years ago since i did game programming
23:46:55 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:47:46 <oklopol> of course, that's not very interesting
23:49:00 <oklopol> well, it's somewhat interesting
23:49:14 <Sgeo> " Use vectors to prove that the diagonals of a parallelogram bisect each other"
23:49:19 <Sgeo> Maybe I should watch the video...
23:50:00 <Sgeo> Or maybe I should get some paper...
23:50:22 <Gregor> cpressey: APPLETS ARE MADE OF SO MUCH FAIL
23:50:28 <Sgeo> I'll leave this for the weekend, I think
23:50:34 <oklopol> calculate the middle point of diagonal 1 by adding up the relevant vectors, then calculate the midpoint of diagonal 2
23:50:41 <oklopol> of course, you have to use the same corner as the origin
23:51:11 <Sgeo> oklopol, I was not asking for a solution
23:51:16 <oklopol> Sgeo: don't leave it for the weekend
23:51:36 <oklopol> Sgeo: and i wasn't giving one, i just translated that into a mathematical problem
23:52:06 <oklopol> well, not really, but the point is all that's hard in the problem is to know what you have to solve
23:52:25 <Sgeo> I'm going to watch some Firefly now
23:54:23 <ais523> but only with my hands, as I don't have oerjan's crazy swatter thing
23:54:50 <oklopol> so the problem asked is, for a pair of vectors (u, v), we define the midpoint of u and v as mid(u, v) = (u + v)/2; show that mid(0, u + v) = mid(u, v)
23:55:41 <oklopol> how incredibly interesting!
23:56:14 <ais523> isn't that just algebra?
23:56:36 <ais523> as in, trivial algebra
23:56:55 <oklopol> well yes, you open the definitions and use a few identities that hold in vector spaces
23:57:21 <oklopol> rather trivial identities, even
23:58:06 <oklopol> namely that the zero vector is an identity element in the group of vectors
23:58:41 <oklopol> ais523: i'm just picking on the course Sgeo is on for asking a question with no mathematical content
23:59:38 <ais523> oklopol: most of the questions I ask on the course I teach ask questions with no mathematical content
23:59:48 <ais523> but then, it isn't a maths class, so they wouldn't be expected to have any
00:00:13 <oklopol> Sgeo is taking a course of some sort on i dunno elementary school math i guess
00:00:22 <Sgeo> oklopol, multivariable calculus
00:00:30 <Sgeo> http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-02sc-multivariable-calculus-fall-2010/part-a-vectors-determinants-and-planes/session-1-vectors/
00:00:55 <oklopol> the multivariable calculus course we had here is horribly hard, i barely got a 5 from it
00:02:47 <oklopol> mit, huh? that's a big name, maybe they know what's useful to learn better than me
00:09:07 -!- pumpkin has joined.
00:09:07 -!- pumpkin has quit (Changing host).
00:09:07 -!- pumpkin has joined.
00:09:13 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:11:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:12:54 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:14:43 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:19:05 <oklopol> hey i just got a great idea
00:19:20 <oklopol> if i don't sleep at all, i get to go to the university now!
00:19:58 <oklopol> there's one small but, i don't get to sleep at all
00:23:21 -!- copumpkin has joined.
00:23:24 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:32:16 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:35:42 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:59:41 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
01:04:25 -!- Behold has joined.
01:06:50 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
01:11:40 <Sgeo> The PDF didn't say i-hat, it said i
01:18:13 -!- augur has joined.
01:19:07 <augur> where the fuck is oerjan
01:22:00 -!- copumpkin has joined.
01:26:43 <augur> http://www.wellnowwhat.net/puzzles/1/
01:29:35 <augur> @tell oerjan i was wrong about the 2 2-cycles 3 4-cycles one :x
01:30:08 <Sgeo> Someone in the class just asked the question I was thinking, and was going to ask here
01:32:57 <Gregor> creat@libc.so: STILL AVAILABLE
01:33:38 -!- wareya_ has joined.
01:37:01 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:41:51 <Sgeo> MIT professors have awesome blackboards
01:47:55 -!- Behold has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:48:24 <Sgeo> http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-02sc-multivariable-calculus-fall-2010/part-a-vectors-determinants-and-planes/session-1-vectors/MIT18_02SC_we_3_comb.pdf
01:48:37 <Sgeo> It took me way too long to remember the trig behind that answer
01:50:37 <Sgeo> The midpoint P = ⇒ (B + A) − C
01:50:51 <Sgeo> The midpoint P = ⇒ (B + A) − C.
01:51:00 <Sgeo> It won't let me copy what I need to copy
01:51:06 <Sgeo> http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-02sc-multivariable-calculus-fall-2010/part-a-vectors-determinants-and-planes/session-1-vectors/MIT18_02SC_we_4_comb.pdf
01:51:16 <Sgeo> I see.. how that works, but I don't think I'd be able to do it myself
01:52:49 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
01:59:44 <pikhq_> Gaaah, Glee. Perhaps the worst thing about it is that its obnoxious focus on modern popular music.
02:08:01 * Sgeo 's eyes light up when he realizes that the first question requires no trig... wait
02:08:16 <Sgeo> The answer has to be in terms of... angle ? So it does
02:13:03 <Sgeo> Como se dice "right angle" in vectorese?
02:14:25 <Sgeo> I know what I'm subtracting. I'll just draw that
02:16:14 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
02:16:16 -!- pikhq has joined.
02:17:24 <Sgeo> Now that I know what I'm doing, WTF does this problem have to do with vectors?
02:17:29 <Sgeo> It's just a trig problem
02:20:25 <Sgeo> "a) A river flows at 3 mph and a rower rows at 6 mph. What heading should the rower
02:20:25 <Sgeo> take to go straight across a river?"
02:20:40 <Sgeo> Easy enough once I decided to just ignore anything related to vectors
02:20:54 <Sgeo> Well, except remembering subtraction, which helped me visualize it
02:27:00 <quintopia> sgeo: right angle in vectorese is "orthogonal" which formulaically means "have a dot product of zero"
02:27:16 <Sgeo> I haven't gotten to dot products yet
02:27:49 <Sgeo> I kind of did glance ahead, but have no conception of what dot products mean geometrically. I'm going to watch the video, I think
02:28:50 <quintopia> that problem in vectorese would be "find theta such that 6*[cos theta,sin theta]+[0,3]=[x,0]"
02:29:33 <quintopia> which you can see reduces to solving 6sin theta=3
02:29:49 -!- augur has joined.
02:29:51 <quintopia> but yeah, just putting things in perspective :P
02:34:21 * Sgeo headaches in the shape of parallelograms
02:34:57 <Sgeo> I'm just going to read the solutions and move on with my life
02:35:31 <Sgeo> And laziness means half of my solution for the first question is wrong
02:50:15 <Sgeo> quintopia, you inadertantly gave me an answer to one of these problems
02:52:26 <Sgeo> quintopia, you haven't even seen the problem I'm referring to
02:52:52 <quintopia> exactly. therefore i couldn't give you the answer.
02:53:07 <quintopia> indeed, it is impossible to give an answer inadvertently
02:53:23 <quintopia> i may have given you some information that made it possible for you to find the solution
02:59:26 <Sgeo> Note to self: Do not guess at cosines
02:59:57 <Sgeo> I decided that cos(30deg) = 1/sqrt(2)
03:03:49 * pikhq chants tau at Sgeo
03:06:40 <augur> copumpkin: did you check out the puzzles?
03:07:31 <Sgeo> Would it be so terrible to write 2pi/2 everywhere?
03:08:05 <Sgeo> Refuse to simplify!
03:09:30 <pikhq> Good *God* the Fukushima-Daiichi reactor is in a bad state.
03:10:40 <copumpkin> augur: do you have an answer yourself? :P
03:10:57 <copumpkin> augur: or did you just figure out how to express your usual question in graphical form and are hoping someone figures it out? :P
03:11:22 <augur> i have the answer :)
03:11:22 <pikhq> Containment breach, meltdown, too radioactive to allow humans near...
03:11:44 <Sgeo> You can see that equations with x, y, and z, whether they are planes, or empty sets... using dot products somehow?
03:11:45 <pikhq> Burning spent fuel rods...
03:11:53 <Sgeo> Ok, I renounce my fear of dot products
03:12:32 <augur> copumpkin: the question is what explains it!
03:14:36 <augur> ok ill be back in a bit
03:14:39 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:16:31 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
03:16:32 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
03:16:49 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
03:17:26 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
03:17:41 <myndzi> a friend brought up an interesting question to me, maybe some of you dudes have ideas
03:17:57 <myndzi> he's trying to optimize deflate compression on a wordlist
03:18:03 <myndzi> the list doesn't need to be in order
03:18:24 <myndzi> so the question is, is there a method that could be used to squeeze a bit extra out of deflate by rearranging the order of the words?
03:26:23 <Sgeo> Take points P = (a, 1, −1), Q = (0, 1, 1), R = (a, −1, 3). For what value(s) of a is P QR
03:26:31 <Sgeo> QR is never a right angle
03:26:52 <Sgeo> And is it asking for all 3 2d angles to be right angles at once? Because QR is never a right angle
03:27:48 <Sgeo> I misunderstood the question
03:28:15 <Sgeo> Let's all laugh at Sgeo for forgetting basic geometry!
03:28:47 <Sgeo> Well, basic notation regarding geometry
03:29:42 -!- augur has joined.
03:29:53 <Sgeo> augur, feel free to laugh at me
03:30:55 <augur> copumpkin: sussed it yet?
03:31:20 <Sgeo> augur, not understanding what was meant by "angle PQR"
03:31:47 <Sgeo> As in, I failed to properly comprehend the question
03:32:08 <Sgeo> In this OpenCourseWare course I'm doing
03:41:39 <copumpkin> augur: are there infinite non-isomorphic pictures you could provide?
03:42:03 <copumpkin> would you run out of pictures, eventually?
03:44:44 <augur> copumpkin: tho keep in mind that this is entailed by the fact that oerjan discovered, which is that the disjoint union of graphs is always a member
03:46:47 <augur> its merely entailed
03:46:53 <augur> i mean, its part of why
03:46:56 <augur> but even without that
03:51:29 <augur> ask questions about it!
03:54:49 <Lymia> Why am I wasting time by writing an Mandelbrot set generator in C?
03:54:57 <Lymia> Oh well. I guess I could count this as C practice.
03:54:59 <augur> copumpkin: its really simple and elegant underlyingly :)
03:58:10 <augur> copumpkin: no questions? :(
04:01:33 <augur> obviously myndzi is dead
04:03:51 <quintopia> but he's still online because \o/ still works
04:04:05 <augur> myndzi hates me :()
04:04:33 <augur> i will murder you, myndzi
04:05:04 <quintopia> myndzi: change your nick to "my" or "zi" or "dz" or something so people will stop complaining when it doesn't work :P
04:06:37 -!- pikhq has joined.
04:06:56 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
04:07:07 <Sgeo> pikhq, apparently the OCW Multivariable calculus course includes stuff about matrices and determinants
04:07:34 <Sgeo> Is this a major component of linear algebra? Is this course going to give me knowledge of linear algebra on the side?
04:08:03 <quintopia> there is a major overlap between calculus and lin alg
04:11:02 <myndzi> maybe people should just figure out that i can't put a foot in my nick
04:11:04 <pikhq> That overlap is an example of the solid FAIL of mathematics education.
04:11:06 <Sgeo> I wonder if I should do the later stuff in the earlier calculus
04:11:21 <pikhq> But, yeah, that's pretty normal.
04:11:47 <Sgeo> I don't really know about Taylor series, about improper integrals, I don't remember more advanced integration stuff..
04:12:06 <Sgeo> And I deliberately pushed all introduction of trig where the original problem doesn't have trig out of my mind
04:12:47 <Sgeo> I can do the derivatives and integrals of sine and cosine...
04:13:02 <Sgeo> And derivative of tangent given a bit of time, since I haven't memorized it
04:13:16 <pikhq> Memorise trig identities. And when you're done with that, do it again.
04:17:42 <augur> myndzi: what? foot in your nick?
04:20:05 <quintopia> pikhq: i don't consider it fail. i think calc 3 should have strong lin alg elements in it. you should know basic lin alg coming in and not have to be retaught it, but calculus techniques should be added to your lin alg arsenal
04:21:49 <pikhq> quintopia: I think linear algebra should be taught long before then.
04:22:13 <quintopia> pikhq: exactly. i just said the same thing.
04:22:41 <pikhq> No, you said "the status quo is just fine".
04:22:51 <pikhq> Which is the exact *opposite* of what I'm saying.
04:25:38 <quintopia> the status quo of math in general is not fine
04:25:53 <quintopia> but this particular part of the curriculum's organization makes sense to me
04:25:58 <quintopia> what would you change specifically
04:26:34 <pikhq> Teach linear algebra before, not after & during, calc 3.
04:27:07 <pikhq> And beat whoever thought that teaching vectors 4 or 5 seperate fucking times was a good idea.
04:27:08 <quintopia> ...which is how it is done now. i was asking what you wanted to change.
04:27:47 <quintopia> something must be wrong with your school
04:28:06 <pikhq> Where do you reside?
04:28:31 <pikhq> I can only conclude your school is less stupid than most.
04:30:37 <quintopia> here at gatech, lin alg is done during the first 1/3 of calc 2 (the last 2/3 are actual calculus topics)
04:30:51 <Sgeo> I just took a peek at the final exam
04:31:04 <Sgeo> It states a trigonometric identity right there
04:31:07 <Sgeo> At the top of the exam
04:31:09 <quintopia> the first 1/3 is single variable calc and the last 2/3 is lin alg
04:31:29 <pikhq> Congrats, GA Tech isn't quite as stupid as some other places.
04:31:30 <Lymia> http://i53.tinypic.com/hwd6is.png
04:31:34 <Lymia> http://i52.tinypic.com/b9dkzb.png
04:31:37 <quintopia> so taken as a series, calc I,II,III is svc, then lin alg, then MVC
04:31:40 <Lymia> This is the difference between abs and fabsf.
04:32:06 <pikhq> In my experience, calc II has consisted of more single variable calculus, and calc III has been multivariable calculus.
04:32:20 <pikhq> And then comes linear algebra.
04:32:52 <quintopia> http://www.math.gatech.edu/course/math/1502
04:32:55 <pikhq> Currently, local community college, but this is the *third* fucking school I've been to.
04:33:44 <coppro> calculus and then linear algebra?
04:33:47 <quintopia> i didn't take calc I or calc II here though
04:33:52 <pikhq> I did calc I as an AP class, calc II at University of Colorado, and calc III at Missouri University of Science & Technology, and am now doing linear algebra at the community college.
04:34:05 <coppro> incidentally, anyone familiar with voting system research?
04:34:10 <coppro> (like, actual research)
04:34:14 <variable> pikhq: depends which country your in. in the US you would be right
04:34:19 <pikhq> variable: I'm in the US.
04:34:19 <quintopia> i took AP calc in high school to exempt calc I, then adv calc and lin alg as separate courses at a community college while in high school to exempt calc II
04:34:29 <variable> coppro: minimally I've read some studies but I don't know it well
04:35:01 <pikhq> coppro: Calc II is a hard prereq for linear algebra.
04:35:16 <pikhq> Which is basically "single-variable calculus we didn't teach you in calc I".
04:36:01 <quintopia> how about they just squeeze that stuff into calc I and then teach a whole course on lin alg :P
04:36:43 <variable> quintopia: in the EU system they do that. EU Calc I is == US Calc I and Calc II; and EU calc II is == calc III + more
04:36:49 <coppro> quintopia: arrow theorem?
04:37:00 <variable> coppro: basically: there is no perfect voting system
04:37:10 <coppro> variable: oh yeah, that's not the exciting one
04:37:20 <pikhq> Random voting FTW? :P
04:37:28 <coppro> pikhq: what we have at UW is calc 1, 2, and 3, with 3 being multivariate
04:37:31 <variable> or more accurately: one can't convert a ranked order of preferences into a group pref
04:37:45 <coppro> algebra is given in Algebra, Lin Alg I, Lin Alg II
04:37:47 <coppro> it's a spearate stream
04:38:00 <quintopia> variable: rather, there is no system where more than 2 candidates can be voted on that satisfies 3 specific "fairness" principles. there can still be a "perfect" system if you redefine "fair"
04:38:17 <coppro> Algebra is a singular course that is basically 'learn to proof'
04:38:27 <coppro> linear algebra teaches, unsurprisingly, linear algebra
04:38:27 <pikhq> Single linear algebra course, a presumption you're familiar with elementary algebra, and that's about it on the algebra front unless you're seeking a math degree.
04:38:30 <variable> quintopia: yes. I wasn't giving a precise definition
04:38:36 <coppro> pikhq: oh yeah, this is math faculty
04:38:42 <coppro> dunno what other faculties do
04:38:57 <quintopia> rank preferences are kind of a shitty way to vote anyway
04:39:08 <pikhq> At which point you, of course, actually have all the fun stuff in the cirriculum. :)
04:39:46 <coppro> (there's also calculus 4 and 5 for amath)
04:39:55 <coppro> students or me in particular?
04:40:13 <pikhq> 22:24 < pikhq> Single linear algebra course, a presumption you're familiar with elementary algebra, and that's about it on the algebra front unless you're seeking a math degree.
04:40:50 <variable> quintopia: fair for the arrow thm is basically if all people like A > B then A will be chosen, no person has more power than another, and something about changing votes
04:40:52 <pikhq> coppro: Calc 4 and 5? What's in those?
04:41:07 <variable> pikhq: typically formal proofs of Calc 1 and Calc 2
04:41:59 <coppro> 4 is Vector integral calculus-line integrals, surface integrals and vector fields, Green's theorem, the Divergence theorem, and Stokes' theorem. Applications include conservation laws, fluid flow and electromagnetic fields. An introduction to Fourier analysis. Fourier series and the Fourier transform. Parseval's formula. Frequency analysis of signals. Discrete and continuous spectra.
04:42:26 <coppro> 5 is actually an informal name; I can't remember which course it actually is at the moment
04:43:08 <coppro> oh, I think it's partial DEs 1 or something like that
04:43:22 <coppro> (and yes, there is a partial DEs 2
04:43:45 <pikhq> coppro: Damn you people and your genuinely good education.
04:43:55 <coppro> pikhq: you should come to UW!
04:43:58 <quintopia> i took the required calc stuff and moved on the discrete stuff as fast as possible
04:44:28 <quintopia> guess what? i've never had cause to solve an ODE since then!
04:44:36 <quintopia> that's for engineers to do, i suppose
04:44:37 <pikhq> coppro: Cash is, no doubt, a limiting factor.
04:45:53 <pikhq> Not to mention my current GPA making going to a high-quality school nigh-impossible. Damned past me doing stupid shit.
04:45:59 <coppro> pikhq: very true, unfortunately. UW does have a program by which they'll waive fees if they're convinced you're giving them everything you can, but I'm not familiar with it
04:48:02 <coppro> GPA's a much harder point
04:48:18 <coppro> and I don't really understand how they determine transfer admissions
04:48:51 <pikhq> Yup, cost would be insanely prohibitive for me as an international student.
04:50:50 <coppro> as I said, they do have a "you're doing your best, we will bite the bullet to let you learn" program, which you might be able to get
04:51:04 <coppro> but I know little about it
04:54:48 <pikhq> Hmm, seems that I'd actually be able to transfer in, but financing is... Not fucking happening at all.
04:55:16 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:55:28 -!- augur has joined.
05:01:50 <coppro> pikhq: again, they do have that financing option; no clue if it's reasonable and life would probably suck
05:02:04 <coppro> it doesn't seem well-advertised on the website, but it's probably not the sort of thing you want to advertise
05:03:22 <pikhq> If I were Canadian, I would have already been going there, though.
05:04:03 <coppro> it pains me to see someone not able to get a good education because of $$$
05:04:08 <coppro> I'd help you out if I had the money
05:04:42 <pikhq> Blame the US post-secondary education.
05:05:06 <pikhq> Your international tuition rates are comparable to domestic tuition rates at some schools.
05:05:14 <coppro> yeah, I know, it's crazy
05:05:35 <coppro> I remember talking to a guy /from Pennsylvania/ for whom it was cheaper to go to McGill than Penn State
05:08:43 <coppro> we have a magic rules help channel on EFNet with a bot that prints card text
05:08:57 <coppro> a guy joined and called up two card texts; me an another judge both answered his question before he asked it
05:10:02 <coppro> hero of bladehold and gideon
05:11:52 <pikhq> Obvious question is obvious.
05:13:29 <Sgeo> I don't get it
05:15:21 <myndzi> i've done similar things with scripting
05:15:27 <myndzi> i don't know any magic cards these days
05:15:33 <Sgeo> I know vaguely the rules of MtG, but none of the cards
05:15:36 <myndzi> i used to run a bot for some mtg channel that did scramble text
05:15:37 <Sgeo> Except lands, of course
05:15:47 <Sgeo> Um, the basic lands, I mean
05:15:47 <myndzi> there were like 5800 cards or something at the time(?)
05:15:52 <myndzi> and that was like a decade ago
05:16:00 <myndzi> 5800 that doesn't sound right
05:16:25 <myndzi> but i don't know where the script is now
05:18:12 <myndzi> i guess that might be correct after all
05:18:16 <myndzi> google says there's like 15k now
05:18:49 <Sgeo> What was the card text an question>'
05:20:00 <myndzi> http://images.google.com/images?q=hero%20of%20bladehold&hl=en&biw=1236&bih=599
05:20:08 <myndzi> http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&biw=1236&bih=599&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=gideon+magic&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=
05:21:32 <myndzi> but i don't actually know what that shit is on the planeswalker card
05:22:00 <Sgeo> It starts with 6 .. I don't remember the term
05:22:21 <Sgeo> Then add +2 or -2 or 0 for the relevent ability, I think
05:22:24 <Sgeo> I have seen it before
05:22:30 <Sgeo> But my memory may be bad
05:22:52 <myndzi> so you can just increase it indefinitely?
05:23:07 <myndzi> also there's some other new card type, 'tribal'?
05:23:13 <coppro> myndzi: oh yeah, tribal
05:23:14 <myndzi> it's become such a money grab
05:23:16 <myndzi> used to be a good game
05:23:22 <coppro> it is still a good game
05:23:27 <coppro> better game, I'd argue
05:23:28 <myndzi> now it just reinvents itself with trilogies over and over to make people spend money
05:23:44 <coppro> this is true, but that's part of the fun; it changes
05:23:53 <myndzi> perhaps, but it's too greedy for my taste
05:24:04 <coppro> drafting is really popular
05:24:07 <myndzi> i don't suppose they could maintain the community they have without doing something like that though i guess
05:24:14 <myndzi> at least not in the same way
05:24:23 <myndzi> but i'd prefer a self contained game really
05:24:27 <myndzi> you just have to ... stop, at some point
05:24:32 <myndzi> make a new game instead or something, i dunon
05:24:59 <quintopia> earlier tonight i figured out most of how to make mafia a two player card game
05:25:14 <myndzi> sounds like a dvorak project perhaps ;p
05:25:26 <myndzi> i don't think i've ever played mafia though
05:25:36 <myndzi> which is a bit funny since it seems popular on the internet
05:27:01 <quintopia> i've never played it on the internet
05:27:09 <quintopia> but it's a great game in real life
05:51:03 -!- oerjan has joined.
05:51:40 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
05:51:57 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*optbot@208.78.103.*.
05:52:07 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
05:52:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
05:53:58 -!- asiekierka has joined.
05:59:43 -!- oerjan has joined.
06:15:34 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
06:16:06 <oerjan> <augur> @tell oerjan i was wrong about the 2 2-cycles 3 4-cycles one :x
06:20:44 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
06:22:46 <oerjan> well then 2 2-cycles + n 4-cycles should be in general
06:22:49 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
06:27:46 -!- cheater99 has joined.
06:28:19 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
06:34:45 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:54:42 <oklopol> "<quintopia> dmath > amath" <<< !
06:59:18 <oklopol> quintopia: is discrete math considered math where you do your stuff? :)
07:00:05 <quintopia> don't ask me these questions when i'm trying to pretend to be asleep
07:00:10 <oklopol> we get a lot of students from france but they are all from the cs dep because the math dep just does analysis and we don't have that much of that
07:00:36 <oklopol> their math dep just does analysis i mean
07:02:20 <oklopol> they have it all backwards there
07:37:44 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:41:52 -!- Zuu has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
09:03:33 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
09:35:46 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
09:36:49 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
09:37:27 -!- EgoBot has joined.
09:37:31 -!- Gregor has joined.
09:37:57 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest945.
10:14:06 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:23:37 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: hagb4rd).
10:30:46 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
10:32:05 -!- cheater99 has joined.
10:49:56 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
12:12:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:16:13 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
12:16:13 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
12:16:13 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
12:18:36 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
12:41:10 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
12:41:21 -!- pikhq has joined.
12:42:05 -!- cheater00 has joined.
12:43:25 -!- lifthras1ir has joined.
12:43:48 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
12:44:20 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
12:48:25 -!- Guest945 has changed nick to Gregor.
12:58:12 -!- augur has joined.
12:59:21 <augur> @tell oerjan i'll have to generate more to confirm your predictions up to some level of accuracy
13:01:29 <augur> damnit lambdabot :|
13:05:15 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
13:05:41 -!- copumpkin has joined.
13:22:51 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)).
13:23:13 -!- rodgort has joined.
13:28:22 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:31:30 -!- augur has joined.
13:39:42 -!- sftp has joined.
13:47:25 -!- FireFly has joined.
14:04:30 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
14:06:05 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:07:23 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
14:31:52 -!- copumpkin has joined.
14:32:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:34:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:36:42 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:26:45 -!- asiekierka has joined.
15:37:16 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
15:38:46 -!- lambdabot has joined.
15:42:17 <cheater00> can there be two programs A and B where A is a plugin for B, but B is a plugin for A (depending on the situation)? what is an actual use case for this?
15:43:32 <Gregor> Depends on your definition of "plugin". If piping data to each other is considered to be a "plugin", then practically every application in the standard Unix toolchest fits that description.
15:43:36 <ais523> cheater00: Word and Excel ever since Windows 3.1
15:43:46 <ais523> so you can embed Word documents into Excel documents, and vice versa
15:44:05 <Gregor> That's a less-ambiguously-plugin example, innit X-P
15:44:07 <ais523> IMO, the concept's of dubious utility
15:45:05 <cheater00> Gregor: basically, X is a plugin of Y if X registers for callbacks in Y and executes them, later passing control back to Y right after the callbacks are executed.
16:02:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:11:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what happened?
16:11:29 <Phantom_Hoover> You are the last person I am going to discuss this with.
16:13:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:13:34 <fizzie> You people are so... lively, I think is the word.
16:32:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:34:09 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.03: 2x1k to Nepal, 1k to Hong Kong, 3x64k+3x32k to China, 2k to Fiji, 128k to Taiwan, 512+256 to India, /48 to Australia
16:43:22 <Phantom_Hoover> http://retractionwatch.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/faked-data-unsubstantiated-claims-and-spirituality-add-up-to-a-math-journal-retraction/
16:45:01 -!- augur has joined.
16:53:31 <Gregor> Vorpal: I made an antioptbot that reverted all of optbot's topic changes, then somebody made an antiantioptbot and oerjan banned it. elliott got all bitchy then modified optbot to change its nick randomly before changing the /topic, then oerjan banned both optbot and antioptbot (the latter being totally useless without optbot anyway). elliott left in a huff, taking Herobrine with him.
17:06:40 <cheater00> elliott can't stand the situation when the whole world isn't spinning around him.
17:07:36 <cheater00> i've got one crazy maths book written by rev. something-or-another. it's full of crazy bs.
17:08:47 <cheater00> Cartesian and Argand Values, by The Rev. P. H. Francis, M.A.
17:10:07 <augur> @tell oerjan you're right, (2,n) is always a member
17:12:04 <pikhq> So, in short, elliott has issues understanding "DEAR GOD MAKE IT STOP".
17:12:11 <cheater00> PREFACE: The author from a study of properties of infinity gave some elementary deductions from these properties, in a short work /Mathematics of Infinity/, in 1968. (...) [F]urther study allowed Parts I-III of the present work to be composed. It then occured to the author to give the coordinate axes electrical units; and Parts IV and V were added, in which the cause of gravity, and the ways in which the earth is heated and lighted are i
17:12:11 <cheater00> ndicated. But the author has little knowledge of electricity, and less chemistry, and knows little of atomic theories (...)
17:15:45 <pikhq> I mean, I actually liked optbot, but if someone goes to the effort of *making an antioptbot*, just fucking stop.
17:16:28 <pikhq> Hrm. Seems that a massive update hit Debian.
17:16:39 <pikhq> aptitude's spent the last 5 minutes resolving dependencies.
17:17:13 <Phantom_Hoover> It was mainly because he'd been told to implement a fix by oerjan to make the topic-overriding less obnoxious, but then went to sleep and left optbot running unmodified.
17:18:57 -!- cal153 has joined.
17:20:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor made antioptbot and elliott refused to implement the fix until oerjan banned it, and oerjan refused to ban it until elliott made the fix.
17:24:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
17:26:14 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:49:16 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:59:19 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:00:09 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:00:17 <lambdabot> augur said 50m 12s ago: you're right, (2,n) is always a member
18:00:46 <oerjan> augur: well that follows from your (2,3) change of mind + the disjoint union rule
18:02:01 <augur> oh, well, i guess it sort of makes sense
18:02:46 <oerjan> you have (2,0), (2,1) and (2,2) as examples. (2,3) you say is also there. now add (0,4) to those repeatedly.
18:03:15 <augur> since (2,1) and (0,2) are members, then (2,1) + n*(0,2) will be too so that gives you 2n+1
18:03:24 <augur> ie the odd numbers
18:03:46 <oerjan> um you don't have (0,2)
18:03:59 <augur> oh you're right :)
18:04:18 -!- pikhq has left (?).
18:04:22 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:04:28 <pikhq> Oh holy crap it's *still going*.
18:07:25 <oerjan> the last two were already known by union, though
18:08:15 <oerjan> make that the last four
18:08:43 <oerjan> er, not the third last, that's the new (2,3)
18:11:02 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:11:13 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:11:33 <Gregor> Now to implement scapegoat while elliott is pouting :P
18:12:05 <oerjan> augur: does adding a 4-cycle to a member still give a member?
18:13:27 <oerjan> and is (1,0,1) _not_ a member
18:18:28 <oerjan> <Gregor> Vorpal: I made an antioptbot that reverted all of optbot's topic changes, then somebody made an antiantioptbot and oerjan banned it. elliott got all bitchy then modified optbot to change its nick randomly before changing the /topic, then oerjan banned both optbot and antioptbot (the latter being totally useless without optbot anyway). elliott left in a huff, taking Herobrine with him.
18:18:50 <oerjan> mind you not in exactly that order (most of my bans came after elliott left)
18:19:11 <Gregor> Oh they did? I faillol at log reading :P
18:19:20 <Gregor> Anyway, still time to implement scapegoat while elliott is pouting.
18:19:50 <oerjan> and i have since reverted all the bans except antioptbot, which after some reconsideration is the only one i should have banned in the first place, if any
18:23:40 <Gregor> oerjan: Oh piffle, it was just the implementation of a personal spat :P
18:26:55 <oerjan> yes but it's the one action that i think wouldn't have added to the drama
18:30:58 <quintopia> or, you know, making a rule "bots shall not change the topic" and ban them all. that seems the most fair.
18:31:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:32:28 <oerjan> i think the rule "bots shall not sabotage each other" is fairer ;(
18:33:11 <oerjan> for one thing it outlaws definitely disruptive behavior.
18:33:15 <quintopia> i see no reason bots shouldn't sabotage each other.
18:33:36 <quintopia> it's the easiest way to deal with annoying bots without involving an op
18:34:05 <oerjan> erm, i had already been involved with optbot, thank you very much.
18:34:25 <quintopia> i thought we were now speaking hypothetically
18:35:07 <oerjan> ...the rule "you shall not make rules unnecessary, because there will always be some hypothetical reason to break them" is also nice...
18:35:55 <quintopia> that's essentially equivalent to "be as reasonable about exception-granting as you are about rules"
18:36:58 <quintopia> but really, i think the rule of thumb for bots is "thou shalt not make an annoying bot"
18:37:31 <quintopia> i define annoying as "does stuff without being deliberately provoked by a user with the intent to make it do that stuff"
18:41:14 <oerjan> i feel like i'm sliding back into drama just by having this conversation.
18:41:54 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:43:45 <quintopia> nah it's a reasonable discussion to have
18:47:20 -!- Slereah has joined.
18:52:05 <oerjan> apparently not all under-the-bed monsters are made equal http://www.dagbladet.no/tegneserie/pondus/
18:58:35 <oerjan> i thought it was mostly visual, so i linked it anyhow
18:58:42 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:58:44 <oerjan> (it's norwegian of course)
19:02:43 <oerjan> ...helping it to apply nail polish?
19:03:45 -!- Slereah has joined.
19:04:23 <oerjan> i thought it was a bit funny
19:20:31 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
19:20:55 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:39:27 <Gregor> `addquote <tjholowaychuk> that's the joy of JS, it's your bitch
19:40:43 <HackEgo> ) <tjholowaychuk> that's the joy of JS, it's your bitch
19:41:45 <HackEgo> 131) <oerjan> insufficient time dilation. try running faster.
19:42:48 <oklopol> oerjan: i get it, it's funny because norwegian looks silly!
19:51:25 <quintopia> i actually laughed at today's xkcd. something about that idea...
19:52:26 <ais523> looking at it, I missed the idea to start with due to confusion between the player/character distinction
19:52:51 <ais523> computer game /characters/ can generally be safer abused due to, you know, not existing
19:52:52 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: all kinds of weird stuff gets accepted to math journals
19:53:03 <ais523> and luckily, harming the character doesn't harm the corresponding player, if there is one
19:56:17 <Gregor> OK, I am once again forced to solicit opinions on VPS providers: 10485760 bytes (10 MB) copied, 230.677 s, 45.5 kB/s
19:57:07 <Gregor> Anybody have a good VPS?
19:58:19 <fizzie> Gregor: Was that disk IO?
19:59:39 <fizzie> (And was it prgmr you used?)
20:03:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:04:55 <fizzie> I know one http://www.linode.com/ user who hasn't been complaining, but of course that's not saying much.
20:05:28 <fizzie> And another one who runs a server in Rackspace's cloud and complains about network bandwidth.
20:07:23 <Gregor> fizzie: That's disk I/O, yes. And Linode charges too much for RAM, and I'm RAM-hungry :(
20:07:24 <Gregor> And most of the other VPS' broadly disallow all IRC bots because they're lame.
20:08:20 <quintopia> by which i mean, they haven't bothered me except about paying them on time
20:09:04 <quintopia> they give you two ipv4 addresses and 60GB disk for $20, which is a pretty fair price.
20:09:06 <fizzie> Ooh, I didn't even know people use OpenVZ in serious business.
20:09:21 <Gregor> That is pretty decent ...
20:09:30 <Gregor> What's wrong with OpenVZ?
20:09:42 <ais523> quintopia: what sort of bandwidth?
20:10:18 <Gregor> "IRC access is forbidden"
20:10:21 <fizzie> Gregor: Nothing that I know of, I just didn't know people were seriously using it. (And of course some might claim it's more of a fakertualization than virtualization, since you don't get to run your own kernal.)
20:10:30 <Gregor> Why are they all so snippy about IRC.
20:11:06 <ais523> because people using IRC often invite DDOS attacks
20:11:23 <ais523> on certain servers, DOSing or DDOSing people you don't like seems commonplace, for whatever reason
20:12:00 <Gregor> That is just so durpy X_X
20:12:28 <fizzie> "war bots/X-DCC are not allowed"; isn't that a bit redundant if IRC access in general is, too?
20:13:43 <Gregor> EgoBot and HackEgo both run (slowly) on VPS. I can't switch to a VPS that doesn't allow IRC.
20:13:43 <Gregor> The only reason why EgoBot and HackEgo are so slow is that my disk speed on prgmr is totally broken.
20:13:59 <Gregor> I mean, I'm sure they wouldn't notice, by why step on their feet :P
20:16:23 <fizzie> My ISP sells VPS stuff too, but they're probably quite far in the expensive side of things.
20:18:00 <fizzie> (As in >2 times the Linode prices.)
20:19:52 <fizzie> You could try using that huge table at http://www.comparevps.com/ too.
20:20:24 <fizzie> (Not sure how up-to-date they are; at least quite many links are borken.)
20:21:10 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
20:26:10 <quintopia> Gregor: they say it's forbidden, but i'm connecting from them right now. they've never said anything about it.
20:26:41 <fizzie> I wonder if there's some particular reason this Amsterdam-based VPS shop ("Tilaa") has a name that's a Finnish word. (It's, among others, the third-person singular "to order", or the second-person imperative of it, or the partitive of the noun "space" (as in "yes, we have space for you", not "space, the final frontier").)
20:27:25 <quintopia> Gregor: i think they just put it in the rules so they can cancel users for whom it actually becomes a problem. it's like the rule against alcohol in nat'l parks. they don't enforce it unless you get rowdy.
20:32:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:33:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host).
20:33:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:38:18 <Gregor> quintopia: <Gregor> I mean, I'm sure they wouldn't notice, by why step on their feet :P
20:40:07 <quintopia> Gregor: because it gets you a huge slice of computer for a very low price. is there any better reason?
20:40:52 <Gregor> quintopia: I just really don't want to wake up one day and find that codu.org is down because they found out I had a connection to port 6667.
20:41:39 <fizzie> Gregor: Also you can be sure that someone from there would send anonymous tip-offs to them.
20:42:04 <Gregor> After I make a bot that undoes all their bot's actions :P
20:42:38 <fizzie> s/there/here/, and yes.
20:44:52 <Gregor> Besides, I host Hackiki (also only slow because of abysmal disk performance), and some hosts may find that offensive :P
20:45:04 -!- impomatic has joined.
20:47:26 <quintopia> Gregor: this is why i try to make regular backups of my data and a backup vps in mind. i can switch vps's in a couple hours if that happens.
20:48:35 <Gregor> I back up all my data, but don't have a backup VPS in mind, and even if I did it would take more than a couple hours to get it up ...
20:50:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: Try out yoob @ http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
20:50:54 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:51:13 -!- myndzi has joined.
20:53:16 <Gregor> lol, this VPS' terms of service includes: "User may not: ... b) Run stand-alone, unattended server-side processes at any point in time on the server. This includes any and all daemons, such as IRCD."
20:53:24 <Gregor> Uhhh, that also includes all daemons SUCH AS APACHE
20:54:13 <ais523> that sounds like... not a server
20:54:23 <Gregor> Donno, I already closed it, it was too stupid ;P
20:54:32 <Gregor> But the rest of their page talked about using the VPS as a web server.
20:54:40 <Gregor> So pretty much they're made of fail.
20:55:32 <ais523> also, what would be a client-side process in that context?
20:56:19 <fizzie> Gregor: You just need to run all servers in a non-daemonizing mode, and keep a SSH connection open to watch them. (Maybe you could put the ssh in a screen on another VPS.)
20:56:33 <Gregor> fizzie: sshd is a server
20:57:08 <fizzie> Well, maybe netcat into a bash.
20:59:15 <Gregor> fizzie: netcat is a server
20:59:48 <Gregor> And it has to be unattended in order to get it to run on the VPS (emphasis on 'S') in the first place.
21:01:04 <Gregor> http://www.bestdealvps.com/tos <-- ahh, here it is
21:01:18 <ais523> so if there's no sshd, how do you connect to it at all?
21:01:52 <Gregor> Presumably there is an sshd, but their server as preconfigured by them violates their own TOS.
21:03:54 <Gregor> http://www.vpszone.com/tos.html <-- here's a TOS I can actually work with
21:07:00 <quintopia> "Offering UNLIMITED Space and or Bandwidth will result in instant termination of your account. We will not contact you before we delete your files." bahahaha
21:07:29 <Gregor> I can only assume that's targeted at would-be resellers.
21:07:47 <quintopia> i just love the fact that people do that
21:08:03 <quintopia> get a limited vps and then resell it as unlimited
21:08:32 <ais523> given that they can't possibly make good on their promise?
21:08:34 <quintopia> i like their TOS, but the $15 extra a month just kills it for me :P
21:09:09 <quintopia> ais523: they scam as many people as they can. then, when they run out of resources, they close up shop and run, or something like that.
21:09:27 <Gregor> quintopia: I was going to go with the slightly-lesser $19/mo plan
21:09:40 <Gregor> s/was going to go with/would go with/
21:10:19 <Gregor> I'm a RAM hog too, but intovps just isn't on the list.
21:10:27 <Gregor> Violating the TOS isn't something I'm willing to do, too risky.
21:11:16 <quintopia> yeah, it's probs more risky for you
21:11:38 <quintopia> i feel like the most i can lose is a few hours of installing software again on the next vps
21:11:48 <quintopia> if they ever even say anything about it
21:13:24 <Gregor> By all respects I should be WILDLY underutilizing this machine.
21:13:33 <Gregor> Instead it crawls, and not because of CPU or memory, but because of the friggin' HARD DISK.
21:13:46 <ais523> Gregor: what about using a tmpfs?
21:13:55 <fizzie> Well, it's a VPS (emphasis on the V), maybe their fair IO scheduling isn't so fair.
21:13:57 <quintopia> someone else on your box is a disk hog and their scheduler is faulty
21:14:26 <Gregor> That's what THEY said.
21:14:40 <Gregor> ais523: I need the RAM too much.
21:14:49 <Gregor> ais523: And there are too many things that (briefly) need the HD.
21:15:35 <fizzie> Gregor: Maybe you can open a new prgmr account under an assumed name, hope it gets assigned to some better physical place, then move all data and close the old?-)
21:15:53 <ais523> or just let prgmr know that the HD access times are unexpectedly slow
21:16:02 <ais523> and see if they draw the same conclusion you do
21:16:08 <Gregor> ais523: I have, they've tried to fix it rather than just doing as I ask and moving me to a different system.
21:17:18 <fizzie> "Please note; this means all plans come with $4/month worth of support." I guess you've used your $4 already. :p
21:18:14 <Gregor> Actually in spite of what that says, that has more to do with "we won't help you if you're a Linux noob" than "we won't help you if there are problems with our hardware"
21:19:39 <Gregor> real 3m26.984s user 0m3.320s sys 0m1.828s
21:20:01 <ais523> it could just have had a /really small/ proportion of hte timeslices
21:20:02 <Gregor> It takes 3.5 min to copy 200MB
21:23:42 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:35:23 <Phantom_Hoover> So, turns out the technician in my school's science department is awesome.
21:37:52 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.17/20110121150729]).
21:41:05 <ais523> it's dual-licensed, the GDFL is one of the licenses
21:41:15 <ais523> but CC-by-sa is normally more convenient for reuse
21:41:34 <ais523> it allows CC-only imports, but they have to be marked
21:41:42 <ais523> and everything's CC-by-ssa+GDFL by default
21:41:56 * ais523 ponders how you make things creative commons via single static assignment
21:42:09 <ais523> presumably, Creative Commons is who you'd assign it to, but how do you get the static in?
21:45:52 * Phantom_Hoover considers that Googling the manufacture of TNT is possibly not the least incriminating of actions
21:50:20 -!- bitmsk has joined.
21:52:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Turns out it's perfectly plausible that my uncle made it in his chemistry lesson, though.
21:56:07 <Zwaarddijk> my flatmate's uncle once did some thing in chemistry where he dissolved a fish
21:56:17 <Zwaarddijk> when he went to sleep he started thinking about that
21:56:23 <Zwaarddijk> and realized oh shit it will go pretty explosive soon
21:56:54 <Zwaarddijk> so he had to hurry back and try to concoct a way to cancel out the explosiveness
21:57:13 <Zwaarddijk> but yeah, apparently, if you dissolve some kinds of fish in the right acids, you get pretty strong explosives
21:57:55 <Zwaarddijk> I don't think it was trinitrotoluene though
21:58:24 <Zwaarddijk> i think it was more similar to nitroglycerin though
21:58:45 <Zwaarddijk> as he was very careful in handling it, pretty much sweating all the time... something like "one false move and this goes all the way to hell"
22:00:46 <Phantom_Hoover> The reason I started on this was that some of the chemistry students in the year above me at school were trying to make gunpowder.
22:01:46 <Phantom_Hoover> And they needed stuff from the technician, and he cottoned on after they asked for sulphur and potassium nitrate in short succession.
22:02:16 <Phantom_Hoover> So he told them how to make nitrogen triïodide instead, which is much more fun.
22:03:26 <Phantom_Hoover> They tested it by leaving some bits of paper soaked in it in the corridors just before lunch break started.
22:04:19 <Zwaarddijk> so it's weak enough not to be dangerous in such amounts?
22:05:10 <Gregor> Only when the alpha particles are dating do they set it off.
22:07:58 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
22:12:33 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:15:39 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:15:59 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:16:24 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:18:42 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to Alex_Megaroide.
22:29:10 -!- alegend45 has joined.
22:30:06 <Gregor> And naturally we all remember who you are, because you're a legend :P
22:33:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?).
22:33:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:34:16 <Phantom_Hoover> alegend45, I SUSPECT THAT YOU HAVE MADE MULTIPLE BRAINFUCK DERIVATIVES
22:41:14 -!- alegend45 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.15/20110303171539]).
22:46:07 <Zwaarddijk> Phantom_Hoover: why don't you fuck their brains with a brick instead?
22:46:22 <Zwaarddijk> as that punishment sounds kind of called for?
22:46:40 <Zwaarddijk> but that would truly be a punishment fit for the crime
22:46:54 <quintopia> what exactly does Kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen mean?
22:51:36 <fizzie> "Tämänhetkinen kahdenkymmenenneljän tunnin aikakausi" would be more-or-less proper Finnish for "the current twenty-four hour period".
22:57:57 -!- cheater00 has joined.
23:06:57 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:07:31 -!- Lymia has joined.
23:12:35 <Zwaarddijk> don't recall what that diacritic usually is called
23:12:50 <Zwaarddijk> so i will have much muscle usage left when I die
23:14:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:15:52 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
23:35:37 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
23:46:54 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:01:24 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
00:01:27 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:01:35 -!- copumpkin has joined.
00:13:37 -!- elliott has joined.
00:13:44 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:22:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:22:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:30:41 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
00:31:10 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:38:11 -!- nathy has joined.
00:56:33 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:56:33 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:56:51 -!- pikhq has joined.
01:03:05 -!- cheater- has joined.
01:06:00 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
01:13:56 -!- cal153 has quit.
01:39:05 -!- nathy has left (?).
01:41:52 <pikhq> http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2011/03/michigan-declares-financial-martial-law/35861/
01:42:25 <pikhq> Michigan is now under fascist rule.
01:44:37 <pikhq> No, literally, fascism.
01:45:35 <Gregor> pikhq didn't notice what with the partial nuclear meltdown ;P
01:47:26 -!- Alex_Megaroide has changed nick to wareya.
01:48:57 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:49:27 -!- cal153 has joined.
01:52:06 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
01:52:45 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:53:13 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:56:40 -!- augur has joined.
02:15:44 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:16:30 -!- wareya has joined.
02:24:14 -!- EgoBot has joined.
02:26:06 <augur> pikhq: no shit sherlock
02:26:36 <augur> about fascism in michigan
02:27:12 -!- HackEgo has joined.
02:27:40 <HackEgo> 123) * Warrigal refuses to say goodbye to Quas NaArt, as he is coming closer, not going farther.
02:29:27 <Gregor> Moved my bots off Codu for now.
02:44:41 <Gregor> !bf_txtgen Textadupadup
02:44:43 <EgoBot> 114 ++++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++++++++>+<<<<-]>.+++++++++++++++++.>.----.<----.+++.>+.>++++.<<---.+++.>.>.>--. [397]
02:46:12 <Gregor> Timing buffered disk reads: 4 MB in 4.34 seconds = 942.73 kB/sec laaaaaaaaaaawl
02:52:03 <Gregor> Yay, they're moving me to a different server.
03:04:01 <quintopia> does your bf_txtgen implementation tune the number of values that it plays with and their initial values until it hits a local minimum?
03:04:46 <Gregor> It's not mine, and it's a genetic algorithm, and that's all I know about it :P
03:05:01 <Gregor> Everybody assumes it's mine just because my bot contains it, even though it also contains dozens of interpreters I didn't write :P
03:05:49 <quintopia> well, i just meant "your" in the sense of "the one you use"...and i assumed you knew something more about it than that because it's the one you use >.>
03:06:02 <Gregor> I know ... how to call it :P
03:06:11 <quintopia> do you know whether it runs a per-string GA, or the whole program was GA-generated?
03:06:51 <Gregor> The program is human-written Java.
03:10:35 <quintopia> do you know what the numbers it outputs mean?
03:10:42 <quintopia> i assume the first one is the length
03:13:08 <Gregor> One is length, the other is the generation.
03:13:15 <Gregor> I choose the shortest one within the first 1000 generations or something.
03:19:06 <quintopia> is the "cool factor" here more important than getting the shortest string possible?
03:52:43 <Gregor> The shortest string possible isn't very easy to calculate ...
03:53:14 <quintopia> i just meant if there were an algorithm that yielded better results than the current one, would you switch to it
03:53:35 <Gregor> Although I'd prefer that somebody just give me an hg bundle so I don't have to do any switching myself :P
03:53:53 <Gregor> Pretty much nothing :P
03:53:55 <Gregor> This has done quite well.
03:54:16 <quintopia> you know i held a coding competition for this problem a few years ago, right?
03:54:41 <quintopia> i wonder if a "try a bunch of tuned heuristics and pick the best one" couldn't outdo the GA
03:56:33 <pikhq> Well, you could make a much better GA. :P
04:08:09 <quintopia> do you know how the GA works pikhq?
04:09:24 <pikhq> Yeah, it's just tweaking a single setting loop and a string of +-<>. to output the string.
04:09:32 <pikhq> Pretty dang naïve.
04:29:27 <quintopia> gregor: at some point in report.c do you store the values of "number of times p beat q" (bfjoust)?
04:29:39 <quintopia> if not, where can i extract them from?
04:30:09 <Gregor> IIRC it's what's in the global var "scores"
04:37:36 <quintopia> so it's a 2D array of signed chars? so scores[p][q] is the value i'm looking for?
04:38:46 <Gregor> I think it's a 2D array in the C sense; double-indirection is for pussies.
04:41:12 <quintopia> it looks like it only saves the score of p vs. q in there if q>p
04:45:57 <Gregor> No, it always stores it there.
04:46:51 <Gregor> Oh, sorry, I misread your misreading X-P
04:47:04 <Gregor> Yeah, it only stores it for the lower program.
04:47:10 <Gregor> But the score for the other is just the inverse of that.
04:47:39 <Gregor> The winner() function will (contrary to its name) always give you the proper score.
04:49:30 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHVrE1NTgxI
04:52:00 <quintopia> i seem to recall it is pwins-qwins
04:52:44 <Gregor> So if left wins it's negative, if right wins it's positive.
04:53:08 <quintopia> because i need the actual values pwins and qwins
04:53:33 <Gregor> Sorry, I didn't know you needed exactly that.
04:53:49 <Gregor> The fact that that's not reported isn't even report.c's fault, the interpreter doesn't report it.
04:54:02 -!- mycroftiv has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
04:56:32 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:00:23 <quintopia> ah, found the relevant score summarization data
05:10:59 <pikhq> Franklin's daylight savings time proposal was almost certainly meant as a joke.
05:11:12 <pikhq> 'Franklin's essay also "suggested" ringing church bells and firing cannons at dawn to ensure that nobody would be excluded from his benevolent gesture.'
05:11:32 <pikhq> So, I don't have to blame *him* for it.
05:11:39 <pikhq> Just everyone who failed at reading comprehension.
05:15:59 <Sgeo> "Your readers, who with me have never seen any sign of sunshine before noon, and seldom regard the astronomical part of the almanac, will be as much astonished as I was, when they hear of his rising so early; and especially when I assure them, that he gives light as soon as he rises. I am convinced of this."
05:16:49 * pikhq still adores these guys: http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/scigen/
05:17:06 <pikhq> I'm especially fond of the randomly-generated *speeches* they gave.
05:28:08 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: Leaving).
05:37:00 -!- mycroftiv has joined.
05:54:37 -!- oerjan has joined.
05:57:30 -!- asiekierka has joined.
05:57:31 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:57:37 -!- asiekierka has joined.
05:58:05 <oerjan> <quintopia> so easy to get rid of noobs
05:58:40 * oerjan swats phantom_hoover in absentia -----###
05:59:21 <oerjan> 16:13:37 --- join: elliott (~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott) joined #esoteric
05:59:21 <oerjan> 16:13:44 --- quit: elliott (Remote host closed the connection)
06:02:17 <oerjan> also i have a bad conscience about this.
06:06:46 <oerjan> 21:11:32 <pikhq> So, I don't have to blame *him* for it.
06:06:46 <oerjan> 21:11:39 <pikhq> Just everyone who failed at reading comprehension.
06:07:54 <oerjan> just be glad they didn't all misinterpret swift in the same way :D
06:08:37 <pikhq> Hey, I'm an atheist now. Aren't we supposed to eat babies? :P
06:09:11 <pikhq> Do put the baby on the plate!
06:11:18 <augur> figure the puzzle out yet?
06:11:30 <oerjan> i asked you a couple more questions in the logs
06:11:40 <augur> i dont log read. ask them again
06:12:06 <oerjan> well one was if you can always add another 4-cycle
06:12:22 <oerjan> another was if 1 2-cycle + 1 6-cycle is a member
06:12:22 <augur> you mean just take an arbitrary graph and tack on a 4-cycle?
06:12:52 <oerjan> or was that to the other.
06:12:57 <augur> its to both, actually
06:13:45 <augur> well, the adding a 4-cycle thing might actually be true
06:13:47 <augur> lemme think about this
06:14:04 <oerjan> well i more or less assumed you'd have included it. is the new example list also still with all subgraph examples included?
06:14:10 <augur> no, it's not true.
06:15:10 <augur> yes, all the puzzles are complete. no subgraphs are ever missing the way im doing this
06:15:38 <oerjan> hm, does that mean you have to check subgraphs to check a graph
06:16:41 <augur> actually, maybe the adding-a-4-cycle is true. its hard to know :p
06:17:09 <oerjan> i didn't see anything contradicting it in the examples, at least
06:20:24 <augur> so any ideas about whats underlying this?
06:20:55 <augur> theres some stuff that seems plausible to ask that you're not asking
06:21:15 <augur> also did you see the second puzzle showing a natural subset of the first puzzle?
06:21:35 <oerjan> i'm looking at it but there are no bells ringing yet
06:21:53 <augur> the bells dont have to be clearly related
06:22:44 <oerjan> does the second list include everything from the first that is also in the natural subset?
06:23:17 <oerjan> you didn't leave out anything from the first puzzle list that should be in the second list?
06:23:57 <augur> im going to try to keep that sort of thing synchronized, so if i reveal more in one puzzle, and another puzzle is a natural subset, i'll reveal more there too
06:24:34 <augur> similarly, if i reveal more about the subset, i'll reveal some more of the superset (in a natural way) that keeps them synched
06:25:39 <oerjan> does the second puzzle also have the disjoint union property?
06:26:07 <augur> really what i could do is just mark the first puzzle's subset members with some sort of adornment
06:26:39 <augur> nah, it wont be as easy to see
06:26:53 <oerjan> if you replace a 6-cycle by a 2-cycle, is that still a member?
06:26:53 <augur> also, no, regarding the second puzzle
06:27:12 <augur> maybe. im not sure.
06:27:40 <augur> you're thinking too much about the details. you need to step back a bit.
06:27:50 <oerjan> is the membership related to whether the graph can be embedded in some larger structure?
06:28:36 <augur> its possible, but i have no idea.
06:29:11 <oerjan> is it related to linguistics?
06:29:49 <oerjan> related to anything other than math?
06:29:57 <augur> depends on what you eman by math.
06:30:26 <oerjan> something non-abstract?
06:31:06 <augur> if i may ask a leading question
06:31:31 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
06:31:36 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
06:31:41 <oerjan> obviously there are no sinks or sources, but is it related to something flowing between the vertices?
06:31:50 <oerjan> (other than just the edges)
06:33:11 <augur> well, let me just state
06:33:23 <oerjan> hm you pointed out initially they were digraphs. is that an intrinsic part of the property or just a corollary?
06:33:50 <oerjan> *of the construction, perhaps
06:33:59 <augur> well, lets say that being digraphs is what you'd expect given how they're generated
06:34:26 <augur> in that they're not generated from some formula about graphs, as such.
06:35:16 <augur> think of what graphs are
06:35:20 <augur> beyond merely graphs
06:35:39 <oerjan> they are diagrams, also relations
06:36:04 <augur> what sorts of diagrams, what sorts of relations
06:36:45 <oerjan> _any_ relation is a graph, really. diagrams with dots and arrows.
06:36:58 <augur> yes graphs are diagrams with dots and arrows
06:37:05 <augur> but you dont just have diagrams floating around in space
06:37:11 <augur> devoid of, shall we say, meaning
06:37:22 <oerjan> THERE ARE SOME ON RUSSELL'S TEAPOT
06:37:49 <augur> given how little i know about the mathematical properties it should be clear that im not cranking a graph theory machine, here
06:38:12 <oerjan> do the vertices correspond to two sets of natural objects?
06:39:22 <oerjan> they're digraphs so the vertices can be divided into two sets with all edges between the sets. but is this division based on some natural distinction between vertices in the construction?
06:40:00 <augur> you mean can the vertices be partitioned into two sets which each constitute some natural class?
06:40:05 <oerjan> do the vertices represent people somehow?
06:41:13 <augur> let me reiterate that this puzzle is unusually appropriate for this channel
06:41:25 <oerjan> ...do they represent esolangs?
06:41:49 <augur> well i suppose that depends on what you mean by esolang!
06:42:01 <augur> these days almost anything can be an esolang!
06:42:17 <augur> flow control, not as such
06:43:10 <augur> again i suppose that depends on what you mean by grammar, given the broadness of this concept
06:43:15 <augur> you're in the right area
06:43:26 <augur> now look at the damn graphs
06:43:36 <augur> dont pay attention to the members of the graphs
06:43:39 <augur> just look at what they _are_
06:43:50 <augur> arrows from nodes to nodes
06:45:30 <augur> if there is some non-graph-theoretic rational behind having graphs at all
06:45:34 <augur> what could that rational be
06:45:58 <oerjan> a relation between the vertices.
06:46:17 <augur> but that just is what a graph is
06:46:30 <augur> its not some sort of prior rational for having graphs at all
06:47:05 <oerjan> i'm sorry but the construction workers have started _and_ the neighbors' dog is barking. my brain shall now be unusable for the next 8 hours.
06:49:19 <quintopia> what does <defunct> mean after a process?
06:49:32 <quintopia> aka, what likely happened to the process
06:50:00 <augur> im going to drive home. while im doing so, contemplate what would naturally lend itself to yielding directed graphs as a way of visualization
06:50:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:50:38 <oerjan> ...augur didn't get that part about unusable brain, i take.
07:03:45 <oerjan> they're supposed to eventually start drilling as well. i don't know what i will do then but you will probably hear about it on the news.
07:10:56 -!- azaq23 has joined.
07:14:29 -!- augur has joined.
07:22:29 * quintopia gifts oerjan some noise-cancelling headphones
07:28:06 <oerjan> did i mention the vibrations in the ground? probably not, as they hadn't started yet.
07:28:19 <augur> oerjan: earth quake?
07:28:48 <augur> thumpa thumpa thumpa
07:35:16 <oerjan> fortunately i shall have some respite from horror as i have a dentist appointment today.
07:35:43 <augur> oerjan: so, any ideas?
07:36:00 <oerjan> you think i'm _joking_ about my brain being unusable?
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:25:47 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:26:16 -!- Sgeo has joined.
08:27:55 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
08:45:14 -!- azaq23 has joined.
08:55:52 <cheater-> oerjan: the only thing that can help you now is LOUD MUSIC
08:56:38 <oerjan> i guess i'm doomed, then.
08:57:08 * quintopia slaps oerjan around a bit with a DOOMSDAY DEVICE
09:00:47 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
09:29:35 <fizzie> My Emacs just started to bleed. That can't be a good sign.
09:30:11 <fizzie> All other windows are just fine, but any Emacs windows I open get their backgruond replaced by this flickery red mess.
09:30:18 <fizzie> Which doesn't show up in screenshots.
09:39:19 <Vorpal> <quintopia> i see no reason bots shouldn't sabotage each other. <-- ooh Bot Wars. I wonder if we could sell the concept to some TV station!?
09:39:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, what, seriously?
09:40:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, what did you change that might have caused it?
09:40:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, no system upgrades?
09:40:17 <fizzie> I mean, I didn't even start a new Emacs.
09:40:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it happen if you start a new instance?
09:40:47 <fizzie> I did xlock the screen when I went to lunch; when I came back, it was like this.
09:40:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, maybe some emacs virus?
09:41:10 <Vorpal> I mean, if it is only emacs, hardware issues sound unlikely
09:41:19 <fizzie> Since it doesn't show up in a "xwd" dump at all, I'm inclined to believe some sort of closer-to-display-drivers thing.
09:41:29 <fizzie> Don't know what Emacs might be doing differently to trigger it, though.
09:42:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, you said it flickered to red? Do you mean flicker from normal to red? In that case maybe the dump got it just between the flickers?
09:42:14 <fizzie> If I xwd the Emacs window, then xwud-view the image, the resulting window flickers too.
09:42:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, what if you xwud other windows?
09:43:00 <fizzie> Oh, it even flickers if I convert the .xwd to a .png and then open it in eog, but only the pixels of the background color.
09:43:07 <Vorpal> do you have some strange bg colour there normally?
09:43:09 <fizzie> I didn't notice this before because it only flickers in one screen.
09:43:15 <Vorpal> maybe it bugged out on that specific colour
09:43:23 <fizzie> Yes, that seems likely.
09:43:50 <fizzie> That specific color on this specific screen.
09:44:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about dimensions of the emacs window?
09:44:44 <fizzie> Gimp's color-picker "Current" block flickers too if I set it to the background color.
09:44:45 <Vorpal> power cycling that monitor might help
09:45:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, didn't want it fixed?
09:45:22 <fizzie> Well, it was sort of interesting. :p
09:45:39 <Ilari> What color it was that flickered?
09:46:21 <Vorpal> Ilari, out of interest, is that Finish word order? ("it was" in a question)
09:48:07 <fizzie> I think both word orders ("-- mikä väri oli se joka --" and "-- mikä väri se oli joka --") are understandable Finnish, though maybe "what color was it that" would be more canonical.
09:48:48 <fizzie> Some other pixels in the Gimp color-browser gradient did flicker a bit too, so it might not have been limited to exactly that one value.
09:50:06 <fizzie> Now that my screen no longer bleeds, I guess I should try to figure out some way around this "probabilities are no longer finite" error message this GMM tool is giving me.
09:57:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, also that error reminds me of a certain book
09:57:46 <Vorpal> I'm sure you know which one
10:04:07 <fizzie> Gaussian mixture model. You know, https://chart.googleapis.com/chart?cht=tx&chl=p%28\mathbf{x}%29=\sum_{k=1}^K%20\pi_k%20\mathcal{N}%28\mathbf{x};\,\,\mathbf{\mu_k},\mathbf{\Sigma_k}%29 sort of stuff.
10:04:32 <fizzie> (Couldn't resist a chance to use that chart thing.)
10:05:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, since when does google render tex?
10:06:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, also I have no idea what a Gaussian mixture model is. What is the fancy-looking N in that equation?
10:06:18 <fizzie> At least from 2010-11 onwards.
10:06:24 <fizzie> It's the normal distribution.
10:06:41 <Vorpal> okay it does make a vague sort of sense now
10:06:43 <fizzie> Sort of a messy notation; the pdf of it.
10:07:37 <fizzie> Just a weighted sum of normal distributions. I left out the part that https://chart.googleapis.com/chart?cht=tx&chl=\sum_{k=1}^K\pi_k=1 of course.
10:08:13 <fizzie> Yes, but I again couldn't help myself.
10:09:01 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game).
10:09:23 <fizzie> Still don't know why the toolbox doesn't want to generate a model for this data.
10:09:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, probably because of probabilities are no longer being finite!
10:10:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, now if we could only get infinite improbabilities...
10:12:25 <fizzie> There is one sort-of known issue with EM training a mixture model like this, which is that it can happen that one component of the mixture converges to cover a single data point with 0 variance. I would think the code would take that into account, though.
10:13:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, is it mathlab?
10:13:39 <fizzie> It's a third-party pile-of-code for MATLAB, from http://www2.it.lut.fi/project/gmmbayes/downloads/src/gmmbayestb/
10:13:41 <Ilari> APNIC this month (16 days): 18 458 112 addresses allocated (1.100 blocks). On IPv6 front: 1 114 118 /48s. I think records on IPv4 allocations are going to get slammed again.
10:14:03 <Vorpal> Ilari, I assume the events in Japan had an effect on the allocation rate?
10:14:58 <Ilari> No idea. Japan has highly spiky allocation profile, making changes difficult to detect.
10:15:09 <Vorpal> Ilari, heh, anyone know why that is the case?
10:15:19 <fizzie> They did get that /9 not long ago, shouldn't that last them for at least a few moments?
10:15:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, a /9 is very large for a single country to get
10:16:19 <fizzie> Single company, even, though I guess they're bit of a monopoly there.
10:16:25 <Ilari> It was for NTT Japan.
10:16:54 <fizzie> Nippon Telegraph and Telephone Corporation, apparently.
10:16:56 <Ilari> NTT Japan apparently.
10:17:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, a single company getting a /9 these days seems absurd!
10:17:13 <Ilari> APNIC has allocated /8 at once twice.
10:17:51 <Vorpal> seen during mkinitcpio: ERROR: Root file system type detection failed.
10:18:01 <Vorpal> I'm not too worried, since I don't use the distro kernel for booting
10:18:14 <fizzie> My coauthor for this stuff is in Japan, only realized yesterday evening I hadn't though about asking her how it's going. Though I guess Nagoya is reasonably far from the disaster area.
10:18:48 <Vorpal> I only use the distro kernel because the nvidia X drivers package depends on the nvidia kernel driver package which depends on the kernel package.
10:19:49 <fizzie> "log-likelihood diff 179769313486231570814527423731704356798070567525844996598917476803157260780028538760589558632766878171540458953514382464234321326889464182768467546703537516986049910576551282076245490090389328944075868508455133942304583236903222948165808559332123348274797826204144723168738177180919299881250404026184124858368 on round 1"
10:19:57 <fizzie> I'm no expert, but that sounds like a rather large number.
10:20:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, still finite though
10:20:23 <Ilari> For comparsion: January (31 days): 23 735 040 (1.415) and February (28 days): 22 589 440 (1.346).
10:21:12 <fizzie> >1 blocks a month is already quite a burn rate.
10:21:44 <Ilari> Extrapolation to 31 days gives 35 762 592 (2.132).
10:22:12 <Vorpal> Ilari, so when will it run out?
10:22:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw what is it that you are doing this GMM stuff over
10:23:17 <Ilari> Current best estimates are in mid-April. Formal models tend to guess late (underestimating the growth of allocation rates).
10:23:54 <fizzie> They're going to go to that "last /8" mode first, though, and isn't that policy going to last for a while?
10:23:57 <Vorpal> Ilari, yeah wasn't it supposed to be in September just a while ago?
10:25:25 <Ilari> It was supposed to be October-November some time ago. Then September. Then May-July. Now it seems even May is too optimistic.
10:26:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: The GMM is for converting some heuristic (read: don't have much of a theory behind them) numbers in one domain to something that would correlate with observation uncertainties in another domain, to summarize it in one sentence.
10:27:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, pretty vague eh
10:28:06 <Ilari> Heck, it wasn't very many months ago when the estimated IANA depletion was in June. Then came the surprise allocations to AFRINIC, ARIN and RIPENCC.
10:28:07 <Vorpal> but I guess you don't want to reveal too much before publishing
10:31:30 <Ilari> Exceeding 2 blocks in calendar month would be pretty wild (2 blocks in 30 day window has IIRC already been exceeded).
10:31:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: This part of it is (up to some degree, anyway) already published stuff, actually, from INTERSPEECH 2010. Unfortunately their proceedings are behind a "ISCA Members Area (membership starts from 15 Euros)" HTTP authentication request. :p
10:32:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, no clue if the proxy at my university allows accessing that one
10:33:16 <fizzie> Ours doesn't, which is somewhat surprising; it tends to have a good coverage otherwise.
10:33:47 <Ilari> Heck, picking the last available 30-day window: 2.089 blocks.
10:34:11 <fizzie> (Actually the first author seems to have a copy on his page, but I doubt you're *that* interested.)
10:34:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, can't find any matching *ISCA*
10:34:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed I'm not.
10:34:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about a layman description of it? ;P
10:37:56 <fizzie> Well, um; we take our source-domain heuristic numbers for training data, concatenate them with the "correct" answers (since it's training data we constructed, we have those too), build a GMM model for the distribution of the concatenated vectors, then for test-data use the model to give MAP predictions for the latter half (target domain values) given the first half (source domain values).
10:38:11 <fizzie> Or that's what I'd do if this silly thing would construct a model for me.
10:38:21 <fizzie> log-likelihood diff NaN on round 20
10:38:21 <fizzie> fix cycle 20, fix loops 1 1 1 1 1
10:38:21 <fizzie> ??? Error using ==> gmmb_em at 161
10:38:21 <fizzie> Probabilities are no longer finite.
10:38:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, what sort of domain is that? Something corresponding to some physical application?
10:39:41 <fizzie> The source domain is a (warped) spectral one again; target is the cepstrum thing our recognizer likes to eat.
10:41:53 <fizzie> Speech stuff; it's what I do, after all.
10:42:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah and irc log statistics :P
10:42:21 <fizzie> That's just a hobby. :p
10:53:38 <Ilari> Also, APNIC has 5-day FIFO policy, so the request for that 4M block that was recently allocated to Japan was made before the 9.0 earthquake and following tsunami.
11:12:18 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
11:13:16 -!- variable has joined.
11:21:36 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
11:22:09 -!- asiekierka has joined.
12:47:02 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:59:14 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:59:37 -!- ais523 has joined.
13:15:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:17:18 -!- FireFly has joined.
13:30:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
13:35:06 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
13:35:24 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
13:37:34 -!- sftp has joined.
13:41:06 -!- cheater00 has joined.
13:41:48 -!- ais523_ has joined.
13:43:25 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
13:47:25 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
13:47:37 -!- asiekierka has joined.
13:52:05 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
13:59:05 -!- augur has joined.
14:11:51 -!- jix has quit (Quit: rebooting).
14:17:08 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
14:23:19 -!- Lymia has quit (Quit: ==(>^w^)> ==(> >.<)>).
14:30:57 -!- copumpkin has joined.
14:31:57 -!- jix has joined.
14:32:55 -!- copumpkin has quit (Client Quit).
14:40:05 -!- ais523_ has joined.
14:49:05 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
14:50:04 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:02:41 -!- copumpkin has joined.
15:05:20 <Gregor> Sent an email to the zlib guys asking if they have any use for libz.so :P
15:06:05 <fizzie> Are you going to make BUCKETS OF MONEY with your domain dealies?
15:06:15 <ais523_> who got libc.so in the end?
15:06:26 <Gregor> ais523_: It hasn't ended yet.
15:06:32 <Gregor> It hasn't started yet :P
15:07:28 <Gregor> fizzie: I'm probably going to LOSE buckets of money on libc.so :P
15:07:33 <Gregor> But GAIN buckets of geek cred if I win it.
15:07:45 <Gregor> That's right. BUCKETS OF CRED.
15:08:31 <fizzie> With a name like that, you can probably name the price. I mean, facebook bought fb.com for $8.5 million.
15:09:16 <fizzie> Surely every group developing a libc will be fighting over it.
15:09:57 <Gregor> Right, but if I DO get it, seeing as that it's a closed auction, then that means they WEREN'T fighting over it :P
15:10:05 <Gregor> And besides that, the groups developing libcs have no money.
15:10:17 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
15:10:19 <Gregor> Because they're either profitless Unix ventures or F/OSS.
15:11:21 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
15:11:32 <quintopia> so if you get it, whatcha doing with it?
15:12:10 -!- azaq23 has joined.
15:12:14 <quintopia> also, what country has so as their TLD?
15:12:19 <Gregor> Vanity domain names and I'll see if somebody who's already got a decent man pages site wants to collaborate. Somalia.
15:12:28 <Gregor> *vanity email addresses
15:12:32 -!- azaq23 has quit (Client Quit).
15:12:42 <Gregor> Basically I don't want to think too far ahead because my chances of getting it are low :P
15:19:11 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:23:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
15:24:44 -!- pumpkin has joined.
15:25:56 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
15:28:41 -!- copumpkin has joined.
15:28:59 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
15:32:21 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
15:34:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:53:39 -!- yorick has joined.
15:55:37 -!- pumpkin has joined.
15:55:37 -!- pumpkin has quit (Changing host).
15:55:37 -!- pumpkin has joined.
15:56:50 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
16:14:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:15:30 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:17:46 -!- azaq23 has joined.
16:22:27 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:25:57 <oklopol> when elliott decides to do something, he sticks to it
16:26:42 <oklopol> he shall return in three years, speaking perfect japanese
16:27:51 <oklopol> i don't think that's the same right
16:28:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose I could look through all the Tunes logs and see if he's joined any of those channels.
16:30:15 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.21: 1k to Bangladesh, 1k+/32 to Malaysia, 2x512k+2x128k+64k+32k to China, 32k to Pakistan, 2M(!!!) to India, 2k to Japan, /32 to New Zealand.
16:30:47 <Ilari> Largest available block is now 1M (which there are 5 of).
16:31:52 -!- asiekierka has joined.
16:33:07 <Ilari> Total 256k block count is now 77.
16:35:05 <Ilari> That's 1.20 blocks of space.
16:37:40 <Ilari> That count dropped 12 today.
16:39:48 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:40:18 <Ilari> 0.024 from small blocks space.
16:51:52 <Gregor> Somebody accused me of wearing a radioactive tie in recognition of Japan's nuclear problems :P
16:52:58 <Ilari> During last 31 days, 125 of 256k blocks have been allocated. Those blocks are expected to run out sooner than APNIC (and then allocations really start to fragment the address space).
17:03:45 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:04:52 <lifthras1ir> Ilari, i've just traced the history of APNIC depletion since January. awesome.
17:10:28 <oerjan> <Gregor> Somebody accused me of wearing a radioactive tie in recognition of Japan's nuclear problems :P
17:10:47 <oerjan> brilliant business idea or brilliant business idea?
17:14:16 -!- cal153 has joined.
17:14:17 -!- myndzi has joined.
17:14:34 -!- lifthras1ir has changed nick to lifthrasiir.
17:15:18 <lifthrasiir> uhm, it is better changing a spare nickname...
17:15:31 <lifthrasiir> lifthras1ir and lifthrasiir are way hard to distinguish.
17:16:39 -!- myndzi has quit (Client Quit).
17:16:44 -!- myndzi has joined.
17:20:07 <tswett> Whoever pinged me, if anyone: pong.
17:21:08 <oerjan> no no, we were just talking about the new contact sport of tswetting.
17:21:21 <tswett> I am a fan of that sport.
17:21:28 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:22:57 <Gregor> It is a very "contact" sport.
17:23:00 <Gregor> Where by "contact" ...
17:23:05 <Gregor> I mean "banned in 47 states"
17:23:49 <tswett> Huh. Must involve some breaches of esoteric contract law.
17:26:34 -!- cheater- has joined.
17:28:18 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:31:27 <Gregor> Whenever I use spreadsheets I realize how terrible they are and want to implement my own, then I go "OH GOD NO NOT THAT"
17:37:13 <quintopia> implement concealsheets instead. it's what all corporations /really/ want. you'll make a fortune.
17:44:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:44:53 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:50:56 <quintopia> ais523: is there a name for the class of languages in which it is possible to specify any bijection between sets (and only such functions)?
17:51:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Just checked today's clog logs; he's not on any of them.
17:51:25 <ais523> quintopia: I'm not sure
17:51:29 <ais523> and I'm probably the wrong person to ask
17:52:22 <oerjan> quintopia: hm i think i came up with exactly that once when i tried to think of a semantic foundation for reversible languages
17:52:58 <quintopia> oerjan: I'm going to call it "Permutation-complete" if not
17:53:31 <oerjan> well for finite sets, it's the same, for infinite you need to consider computability and stuff
17:54:08 <quintopia> but that disappeared from my message somehow
17:54:39 <oerjan> if you add phase shifts you essentially have quantum computation
17:55:15 <quintopia> i thought the phase in QC was just to make it a vector space...
17:55:33 <oerjan> the phase is to allow you to get more than just permutations
17:55:56 <oerjan> well from a qc perspective
17:56:10 <quintopia> i have a copy here of "quantum computation and quantum information" by Nielsen and Chuang
17:56:45 <oerjan> i've never read an actual book about it, but i know the basic hilbert space formalism, and what a qubit is
17:58:50 <quintopia> "the Hadamard, phase, CNOT, and pi/8 gates form a family of gates from which any unitary operation can be approximated, and thus is a universal set of gates"
17:59:20 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:01:24 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
18:03:41 -!- cheater00 has joined.
18:04:49 <quintopia> so it's like flip across the Re(x)=Im(x) line, i guess
18:19:18 -!- impomatic has joined.
18:23:45 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:33:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:33:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:37:35 <Gregor> Why are my bots down >_<
18:38:38 -!- EgoBot has joined.
18:38:41 -!- HackEgo has joined.
18:39:04 <Gregor> `echo I would be better if my bots weren't down :P
18:39:06 <HackEgo> I would be better if my bots weren't down :P
18:40:32 <Gregor> Since both bots use multibot, there is literally no reason for them to be separated. Combining them would be as simple as cp -R. AND YET I DON'T.
18:45:25 <quintopia> i suppose it's because you want to retain control of the non-hackable things
18:45:45 <Gregor> quintopia: In no way would it compromise control of the non-HackBot things.
18:46:11 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: multibot is my simple IRC bot that calls out to shell (or any other kind of) commands when presented with queries.
18:46:20 <quintopia> Gregor: oh you would have two separate folders running on the same instance of multibot?
18:46:44 <fizzie> Gregor: Would you call the combination HackEgoBot, then?
18:46:49 <Gregor> quintopia: The commands for ! and for ` would simply not refer to the same directory.
18:47:29 <quintopia> Gregor: well that's the reason not to combine them then. having two command prefixes for the same bot instance is annoying.
18:48:22 <Gregor> quintopia: ... that logic is silly, the two prefixes are already in use, they would just be responded to by the same nick :P
18:48:57 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
18:49:00 <Gregor> lifthrasiir: ! only response to a specific set of commands, ` is just system()
18:49:08 <Gregor> (Well, it's actually even simpler than system(), but anywho)
18:49:24 <lifthrasiir> Gregor, okay, i thought egobot now uses multibot...
18:49:37 <Gregor> lifthrasiir: multibot is not what enables HackEgo to do the things it does.
18:50:18 <Gregor> lifthrasiir: multibot is just a framework for connecting IRC commands to shell commands. The fact that HackEgo goes beyond that and runs requested commands in a protected environment is what's implemented within the commands that multibot calls, not multibot itself.
18:50:23 <quintopia> because what you're saying is "this bot will actually be two bots running under the same nick. there is not one set of features, but two distinct sets of features." at which point i would say "then why not combine the features into the same list if its the same bot?"
18:50:45 <EgoBot> Linux gdeskgor 2.6.37-0.slh.2-aptosid-amd64 #1 SMP PREEMPT Sun Jan 9 20:40:11 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux
18:50:46 <quintopia> (actually, i think moving all egobot's stuff to hackbot would be pretty sane.)
18:50:51 <lifthrasiir> okay, so multibot itself does not contain any sandboxing capability nor executing arbitrary commands without authorization?
18:51:01 <Gregor> fizzie: That's my desktop.
18:51:11 <fizzie> What an interesting name.
18:51:18 <fizzie> Do you have a "glapgor" too and so on?
18:51:20 <Gregor> lifthrasiir: Right. All multibot can do is e.g. when encountering a TOPIC command from IRC, run multibot_cmds/TOPIC.cmd with the proper arguments.
18:51:39 <Gregor> fizzie: glapgor, gwirgor, grandroidgor
18:51:47 <Gregor> fizzie: Had a gwatchgor for a while.
18:52:25 <Gregor> `run echo -ne 4; echo -ne 2
18:52:41 <Gregor> It doesn't do expansion without `run simply so that things like `addquote work as expected.
18:52:54 <Gregor> But anyway, yeah, maybe I'll just merge everything EgoBot does into HackEgo's actual filesystem.
18:53:13 <Gregor> Then EgoBot will be utterly redundant.
18:54:57 -!- cheater- has joined.
18:55:33 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:55:39 <Gregor> That wasn't very doable before, but now that (hopefully) my FS access speed will be in the "non-shit" range, it should be doable ...
18:56:08 <Gregor> I had 1MB/s read and 100KB/s write 8-D
18:56:27 <Gregor> That's right: My HD speed was slower than my network speed. Pretty awesome, prgmr! Pretty awesome!
18:56:28 -!- bitmsk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:56:35 <fizzie> Gregor: So what did you end up doing; switched providers or got them to fix stuff?
18:56:53 <Gregor> fizzie: They claim they're going to move me to a different server.
18:57:33 <Gregor> fizzie: Stupid TOSes keep me stuck to very few VPS providers.
18:57:56 <Gregor> But I'm still glad I found http://www.bestdealvps.com/tos , which is the greatest work of comedy writing I've seen in a while.
18:58:32 <Gregor> There was another great TOS that said all you were allowed to do was run a web server and POP/IMAP/SMTP server, which makes me wonder why you would get a VPS at all :P
18:58:36 <fizzie> Yeah, I tried to do a survey-murvey too, and quite many did indeed have that stupid IRC thing. (And a few I couldn't find anything approaching terms of service for, at least without clicking a "send order" button.
19:00:23 <Gregor> User may not: b) Run stand-alone, unattended server-side processes at any point in time on the server. This includes any and all daemons, such as IRCD. // honestly, did no one with any technical knowledge read this at all?
19:00:38 <fizzie> Gregor: Do not that that part is for "Resource Usage for shared hosting accounts".
19:00:42 <lifthrasiir> Gregor, hm, i've just made a mutually recursive quine for egobot and hackego. how about it? :p
19:01:14 <quintopia> lifthrasiir: do you think it will work?
19:01:24 <Gregor> lifthrasiir: I believe one of them is configured to ignore the other, but I can't remember which >_>
19:01:36 <lifthrasiir> !echo `run X='!echo `run X=xxXXxx;X=${X//x""x/"xx"};echo ${X/X""X/${X//"xx"/x""x}}';X=${X//x""x/"'"};echo ${X/X""X/${X//"'"/x""x}}
19:01:36 <EgoBot> `run X='!echo `run X=xxXXxx;X=${X//x""x/"xx"};echo ${X/X""X/${X//"xx"/x""x}}';X=${X//x""x/"'"};echo ${X/X""X/${X//"'"/x""x}}
19:01:37 <HackEgo> !echo `run X='!echo `run X=xxXXxx;X=${X//x""x/"xx"};echo ${X/X""X/${X//"xx"/x""x}}';X=${X//x""x/"'"};echo ${X/X""X/${X//"'"/x""x}}
19:01:43 <Gregor> fizzie: Except that they don't OFFER shared hosting accounts.
19:01:57 <fizzie> Gregor: Yes, but it's still only for shared hosting accounts.
19:02:07 <fizzie> fungot ignores both EgoBot and HackEgo; it's antisocial like that.
19:02:08 <fungot> fizzie: you know 1.7 is out. this erc buffer remarkably similar to the last page of clinger's paper shows up for " grond"
19:02:27 <Gregor> fizzie: ... *brain axplote*
19:02:45 <Gregor> All bots should ignore any nick with 'bot' in it, but then HackEgo doesn't have 'bot' in it :P
19:03:27 <fungot> fizzie: i suspect there being some kind of priorities between your rules. ha ha ha ha
19:03:30 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot)!
19:03:40 <fizzie> This "Sparkbot", I have no idea where it came from.
19:03:51 <fizzie> I've tried to grep my #esoteric logs for it, and can't find anything.
19:04:38 <ais523> it responds to ctcp version, IIRC
19:04:46 <ais523> [CTCP] Received CTCP-VERSION reply from clog: CLOG v0.
19:05:23 <fizzie> fungot doesn't ignore myndzi, but I guess you can't set up a loop with just \o/-style stuff since fungot won't respond to that.
19:05:23 <fungot> fizzie: ( google it) to the window
19:05:50 <Gregor> ais523: So glad captain pedantry was here to save the day :P
19:06:13 <lifthrasiir> `run echo -e '\001ACTION jumps over the lazy dog\001'
19:06:42 <Gregor> HackEgo quite intentionally has no protection to prevent that.
19:06:45 <ais523> `run echo -e '\001VERSION\001'
19:07:08 <Gregor> And yes, you could use that to do the world's most awkward and inefficient DDoS attack.
19:07:42 <Gregor> `echo !echo Why won't EgoBot listen to me *sobs*
19:07:42 <HackEgo> !echo Why won't EgoBot listen to me *sobs*
19:07:53 <lifthrasiir> in reality it's just slightly annoying though
19:08:28 <Gregor> !echo -e '\xFF\xFF\xFF'
19:08:37 <Gregor> `run echo -e '\xFF\xFF\xFF'
19:09:04 <lifthrasiir> anything after \0 will get removed, expected.
19:09:08 <ais523> `run echo -e '\002BOLD\002'
19:09:13 <ais523> this channel strips bold
19:09:23 <fungot> !echo `echo !echo `echo
19:10:21 -!- cheater00 has joined.
19:10:36 <Gregor> Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh nobody talk, cheater's back
19:13:06 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:13:30 <lifthrasiir> okay there is one cheater in and one cheater out, the net cheater is zero
19:23:54 <Phantom_Hoover> TV Tropes have outsourced their entire Fetish Fuel section.
19:28:35 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: they were in severe trouble because Google threatened to - and actually did at one point - withdraw adverts because they thought there was too much adult content
19:28:49 <ais523> so they've been busy trying to make the whole thing SFW in order to keep their advertising revenue
19:29:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Dear god, why can't we have an internet run by adults.
19:30:01 <Zwaarddijk> we should have an internet running on adultery
19:30:09 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:37:36 <Gregor> Why haven't I ported gelfload to DOS ...
19:37:41 <Gregor> Oh yeah, no good mmap implementation.
19:41:46 <Gregor> Hm, do 32-bit DOS programs not use the MMU?
19:42:13 <ais523> they use DOS extenders which hide all the details
19:42:39 <ais523> and typically they set the MMU to a really simple mapping, like mapping all physical memory into virtual memory with the same addresses, or the same addresses backwards
19:43:04 <Gregor> So unless the extender provided an mmap implementation, you're hosed.
19:43:12 <Gregor> I could still load PIE binaries though ...
19:44:48 <olsner> Note that for Digital Bill, "mainstream audience" apparently means "people who are not interested in technology", including for example those who are interested in podcasts about didgeridoos.
19:44:50 <fizzie> DPMI does mmap: http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/doc/dpmi/api/310508.html
19:45:01 <fizzie> More accurately, DPMI 1.0.
19:45:12 <fizzie> And nobody relly does more that 0.9.
19:47:27 <Gregor> fizzie: Uhh, that doc does not look like mmap ...
19:47:31 <Gregor> It looks like device mapping.
19:47:55 <Gregor> Oh, I was thinking anonymous mmaps, not file/device-backed mmaps >_>
19:47:58 <Gregor> Should've mentioned that.
19:49:06 <fizzie> Well, the whole DPMI api is at that site, you can see if it does what you want.
19:50:16 <fizzie> You can mungle with the LDT to some degree.
19:50:18 <Gregor> Allocate Linear Memory Block [1.0] Allocates a block of page-aligned linear address space. The base address of the block may be specified by the client, and pages within the block may be committed or uncommitted.
19:50:43 <Gregor> This is, like, exactly mmap-anon :P
19:51:52 <fizzie> "While Windows 3.0 includes support for DPMI 0.9,[2] version 1.0 was never fully implemented in Microsoft Windows, so many programs and DOS extenders were mostly only written for version 0.9.
19:51:56 <fizzie> The most famous separate DPMI kernel is probably CWSDPMI; however, it only fully supports DPMI 0.9 and no undocumented "DOS API translation"."
19:52:13 <fizzie> So [1.0] support might be spotty.
19:52:14 <Gregor> djgpp has its own though, doesn't it?
19:52:31 <fizzie> CWSDPMI is what it uses, IIRC.
19:52:32 <Gregor> I don't give a splat if I need a "special" extender, I'm talking about loading ELF binaries on DOS here X-P
19:52:49 <Gregor> Then why is this documented at delorie.com X-P
19:53:12 <ais523> because it works with multiple DOS extenders
19:53:17 <ais523> it just recommends one
19:53:20 <fizzie> You might get DOS4GW for free nowadays, it's what Watcom C used to use and there's OpenWatcom.
19:53:38 <ais523> e.g. I use it with HDPMI32 as JPC-RR doesn't emulate CWSDPMI correctly
19:53:42 <fizzie> CWSDPMI might do that part of 1.0 for all I know.
19:54:13 <fizzie> "HDPMI (part of HX DOS Extender) provides "DOS API translation" and almost complete DPMI 1.0 implementation."
19:54:19 <fizzie> That sounds viable too.
19:54:44 <Gregor> HX is friggin' crazy though, I could probably run WinELF under it :P
19:54:49 <Gregor> Almost assuredly in fact.
19:55:20 <Gregor> Put differently, "that's a bit heavy"'
19:56:16 <Gregor> I suppose I could use just the DPMI host part of it though.
19:57:31 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:13:11 <Ilari> lifthrasiir: More than /8 is week was week of 28th February to 4th March. Of course, there has been those /8 allocations (two of them).
20:13:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, elliott responded to a query but he showed no signs of getting over himself/
20:14:54 <ais523> I think he started thinking about Feather
20:14:57 <ais523> I hope he recovers soon
20:27:10 -!- asiekierka has joined.
20:32:00 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:35:51 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:43:59 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:50:56 <Gregor> I've once again forgotten what Feather is :P
20:53:40 * Phantom_Hoover wonders how TV Tropes ended up with an administration so heavy-handed.
20:54:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Discussion threads are _routinely_ nuked, and changes are made by fiat so often I've lost count.
20:55:29 <pikhq_> Spring break achieved.
20:57:10 <ais523> <Gregor> I've once again forgotten what Feather is :P <- be thankful
21:00:27 <Gregor> Same reason why Scape🐐 is called Scape🐐.
21:01:52 <pikhq_> Fuck you and your UTF-Goat.
21:03:20 <quintopia> also, is there a scp-alike that does file-resume?
21:05:07 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, ISTR that it was something to do with starting off as a lightweight Smalltalk.
21:05:36 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: nvm that. what about a resumable scp?
21:05:53 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:08:24 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:08:33 <pikhq_> Aaah, I finally figured out why aptitude ended up freaking out so much.
21:09:01 <pikhq_> OpenOffice to LibreOffice switch.
21:09:16 <quintopia> http://www.webupd8.org/2011/03/gtk-32-will-let-you-run-any-application.html how many people are already planning on seeing how many levels deep they can recurse firefox?
21:15:24 <cheater00> 0just spent 5 minutes searching for a piece of bread that fell off my plate on the floor. it was in my beard.
21:16:01 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:17:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:25:42 -!- Lymia has joined.
21:26:19 -!- cheater- has joined.
21:28:56 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:28:57 -!- cheater99 has joined.
21:31:10 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:38:31 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what the upper and lower bounds on votes on a single reddit comment are.
21:51:14 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:51:16 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:51:29 <olsner> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/9ogpi/what_is_the_most_upvoted_comment_in_the_history/ might have the answer
21:51:30 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:57:02 <fizzie> quintopia: You can do rsync-over-ssh to resume a broken scp transfer; I don't think it does natively.
21:58:21 <fizzie> "scp blah remote:bleh" + continue with "rsync -P blah remote:bleh".
21:59:56 <olsner> the one that's a reply to one with -7500?
22:00:04 <fizzie> Should work reasonably well as long as there's just one file, though it might waste some time/bandwidth in checking that the files match on both sides of the fence.
22:00:30 <fizzie> (Assuming a rsync that defaults to SSH.)
22:00:59 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: ooh, where?
22:02:05 <olsner> aha, look_of_disapproval? the *sum* is 14000, motivated by every comment being the same comment
22:02:18 <olsner> or was, it's obviously changed since that post was made
22:02:27 <quintopia> fizzie: do i need to make a tunnel for it or will it just know?
22:05:05 <fizzie> quintopia: If it's configured to use ssh, it's going to use ssh just fine. Alternatively pass "-e ssh" to it.
22:08:35 <fizzie> Possibly "--append" instead of "-P" would make it just append without checking the contents of what is already there.
22:16:50 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:16:50 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
22:16:50 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:17:19 <Phantom_Hoover> It annoys me to no end that the kind of people who think ESR is onto something have hijacked the glider?
22:19:54 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: http://sss.cs.purdue.edu/projects/dynjs/javascript_the_evil_parts.png
22:21:58 <Gregor> I'm makin' myself some corned beef and cabbage 8-D
22:22:38 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:25:03 <Phantom_Hoover> There isn't a decent way of expressing my reaction to that.
22:27:28 <cheater99> someone just came to my door, handed me money, and told me i'm getting more later
22:27:45 <Gregor> Run for your freaking life.
22:28:09 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:28:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, it's, like, terror mixed with incredulity mixed with curiosity all in a bag.
22:29:05 <Gregor> ... due to ... corned beef and cabbage?
22:29:48 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:30:51 <cheater99> Gregor: well, the person does have clinically certified psychosis!
22:31:17 -!- FireFly has joined.
22:35:59 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:35:59 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
22:35:59 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:38:37 <Phantom_Hoover> It's, like, combining my least favourite thing with something I have had only mildly negative experiences with.
22:39:26 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: You are a bad person.
22:42:07 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: What is your least favorite thing?
22:42:26 <pikhq> Ah, good, so not corned beef.
22:42:36 <pikhq> Which is, of course, DELICOUSNESS ITSELF
22:55:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:01:26 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:20:30 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:34:50 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:36:04 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:55:12 -!- pumpkin has joined.
23:55:47 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:55:52 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
23:56:31 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:14:24 -!- copumpkin has joined.
00:16:26 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:18:53 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:37:19 <Gregor> Damn, why can't gelfload load normal binaries :(
00:40:24 <Gregor> I should make gelfload a library so you could make platform binaries with platform-independent plugins :)
00:42:00 <pikhq_> Why the heck are you working on gelfload again? :P
00:42:08 <Gregor> Because I have libdl.so X-P
00:42:25 <Gregor> gelfload as a library is like portlibdl :)
00:42:44 <pikhq_> Except you have to deal with nasty things like "calling conventions".
00:45:08 <Gregor> Those problems are MOSTLY blown out of proportion :P
00:47:14 <Gregor> Floats are particularly nasty :P
00:47:17 <pikhq_> Many architectures have a single calling convention or a single one that's actually common...
00:47:21 <pikhq_> And then we get x86 and x86_64.
00:47:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:48:05 <pikhq_> x86 has, lessee. The set of calling conventions used by Windows is comprehensive, isn't it?
00:48:51 <Gregor> Which is quite retarded.
00:49:00 <Gregor> cdecl is MOSTLY the same as Unix though.
00:49:05 <Gregor> http://www.agner.org/optimize/calling_conventions.pdf <-- so awesome
00:49:08 <pikhq_> x86_64 has the Microsoft calling convention and the standard one.
00:50:00 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:50:04 <pikhq_> I should here note that I only really refer to C calling conventions.
00:50:14 <pikhq_> C++? Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
00:50:53 <Gregor> Well yeah, obviously C++ is hell.
00:51:41 <Gregor> Anyway, I think libdl.so would be a pretty awesome homepage for gelfload and connected projects :P
00:51:42 <pikhq_> Perhaps the only saving grace there is GCC has a single C++ calling convetion.
00:52:28 <Gregor> Anyway, I was thinking about hacking up gelfload to do "approximation" so you could load old binaries and such if things that changed names just so happened to remain mostly compatible (e.g. libc version hell)
00:52:45 <Gregor> But for some reason I can't load native binaries even when I load all deps with dlopen ...
00:53:13 <pikhq_> Strange; I seem to recall using gelfload on arbitrary binaries just fine.
00:53:32 <Gregor> Arbitrary ... statically compiled binaries? :P
00:54:42 * pikhq_ should actually build this GCC 4.6.0 RC and binutils 2.21.51...
00:54:55 <pikhq_> And let the LTO make static compilation suck less!
00:55:22 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:57:06 <Gregor> lol, this seems to have failed in exit() :P
00:57:10 <Gregor> WURVE when that happens :P
00:57:19 <Gregor> It's so easy to make that fail in a runtime ELF loader.
00:57:45 <pikhq_> (GCC 4.6.0 has LTO not suck, and binutils 2.21.51 has linker plugin support in a genuinely stable linker)
00:57:47 <Gregor> Oh, I'll bet it's because it double-exits.
00:59:34 <Gregor> WHAT IN GODS NAME IS GOING ON
01:01:07 <Gregor> http://sprunge.us/OPHg
01:03:52 <Gregor> So I/O seems a bit ... "odd"
01:03:59 <Gregor> But /bin/ls works modulo segfault at exit
01:04:16 <Gregor> And xterm works which is kinda awesome :)
01:05:11 <Gregor> lolwtf I can launch gdb :P
01:05:29 <Gregor> $ ./src/gelfload ./src/gelfload ./src/gelfload # INCEPTION
01:14:14 -!- cheater00 has joined.
01:17:25 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
01:19:59 -!- zzo38 has joined.
01:24:21 -!- cal153 has joined.
01:36:01 -!- augur has joined.
01:36:03 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
01:36:17 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
01:38:47 -!- copumpkin has joined.
01:42:02 <Gregor> Found /lib/libc.so.6 for libc.so.5 :)
01:42:17 <zzo38> Are the files compatible?
01:43:08 <Gregor> Depends on what you use.
01:43:30 <Gregor> Anybody have an x86_64 BSD system floating about they'd like to throw me a binary from?
01:43:50 <Gregor> Or maybe a simpler /usr/bin/yes?
01:48:06 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
01:56:47 -!- wareya_ has joined.
01:58:08 <Gregor> Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm corned beef and cabbage
01:59:25 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
02:07:17 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
02:07:17 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
02:07:17 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
02:07:42 <zzo38> I guess no BSDers.
02:08:58 <Gregor> Welp, time to make myself a FreeBSD install then!
02:10:29 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
02:28:23 <pikhq_> Mountain Dew Throwback is now a permanent member of the Pepsi line of products.
02:29:10 <pikhq_> Sucrose tastes so much better.
02:29:53 <pikhq_> It's really *quite* apparent in sodas.
02:30:18 <Gregor> You realize I make my own soda, right? :P
02:30:34 <pikhq_> You're also anosmic. :P
02:30:49 <Gregor> I ALSO have an ELF loader that can load itself :P
02:30:55 <pikhq_> Yes, and that is awesome.
02:32:02 <Gregor> Aww foo, can't run FreeBSD ls :(
02:32:36 <Gregor> Oh, interesting, it's in relocating, not running ...
02:33:06 * Sgeo installs Glary
02:33:15 <Sgeo> Ninite has it, CNEt's heard of it
02:34:49 <Gregor> Symbol undefined: 'atexit' wuh?
02:35:39 <Gregor> And I got Found /lib/libc.so.6 for libc.so.7
02:36:54 <Gregor> Oh, or is atexit maybe a macro in glibc?
02:36:58 <Sgeo> What's bad about UAC not dimming the desktop?
02:37:17 <Sgeo> It's not like this is Ubuntu, where a rogue application can just fake a dialog asking for the password...
02:37:57 <Gregor> Looking for atexit in libmetahost_libc.so.7: (nil) ... yuh
02:38:07 <Gregor> $ nm -D /lib/libc.so.6 | grep atexit
02:38:08 <Gregor> 0000000000036870 T __cxa_atexit
02:38:21 <Gregor> In PRINCIPLE I could run weirdo binaries, in PRACTICE I can't :P
02:38:39 <Gregor> Because the specs don't require certain things to be symbols and certain things to be macros.
02:39:30 <Sgeo> Microsoft apparently has heard of Glary utilities. Though maybe I should learn how signed binaries work on Windows
02:40:02 <Sgeo> Maybe they're not called signed binaries
02:40:15 <pikhq_> Gregor: Just make a "library" that consists of calls to each libc function.
02:40:45 <pikhq_> I of course mean "make a program that makes".
02:40:55 <Gregor> I'd have to make them ... from man pages or some such lunacy.
02:41:56 <Gregor> I think I'll make a generishims library.
02:43:29 <Sgeo> Ok, Glary is clearly demented
02:47:33 <Gregor> I'mma try with old Linux binaries instead.
02:56:57 <Gregor> ... in the eventuality that I download any :P
03:00:46 <pikhq_> Try getting ahold of some Loki games.
03:01:19 <pikhq_> (warning: they have more dependencies than just libc)
03:02:15 <pikhq_> Oh, SDL is still ABI compatible with what Loki wrote way back when.
03:05:04 <Gregor> Suggested old Lolki game?
03:05:17 <pikhq_> I dunno, Alpha Centauri?
03:06:34 * pikhq_ is actually surprised that Loki had any success porting games.
03:06:56 <pikhq_> They had 10 employees, and there was basically no infrastructure for doing games on Linux.
03:07:04 <pikhq_> SDL exists because they needed it.
03:07:38 <Gregor> Somehow this random guy got their Sim City 3000 port running on Fedora in 2010 ...
03:08:10 <pikhq_> It's actually quite commonly done.
03:08:22 <pikhq_> Linux is still system call compatible, you see.
03:08:46 <pikhq_> Just a matter of getting the entire set of libraries in place, and voila.
03:08:50 <Gregor> Oh, you think he bundled it with l---right
03:09:19 <pikhq_> IIRC, Gentoo has the appropriate libraries in emul-linux-loki-compat or some such.
03:11:40 <pikhq_> And, heck, even if it weren't for such convenient things, you could always just install a chroot of old Debian.
03:12:55 <pikhq_> Windows is still ABI compatible with Windows 1.0.
03:13:02 <pikhq_> Linux can't even keep ABI for 10 years.
03:13:54 <Gregor> Mac OS X isn't ABI-compatible with earlier versions of Mac OS X.
03:14:04 <Gregor> Also, 64-bit versions of Windows can't run Windows 1.0 binaries :P
03:14:04 <quintopia> compatibility was windows's number one goal for quite a while
03:14:20 <pikhq_> Ah, true, Macs are even worse off than Linux.
03:14:32 <pikhq_> It's still *possible* to run ancient binaries.
03:14:42 <Gregor> Fekk, potato binaries still work X-D
03:14:44 <pikhq_> Mac's had 2 ABI breaks so far.
03:15:12 <quintopia> apple is all about the "if it's broke, throw it out and replace it"
03:15:15 <pikhq_> Debian potato was on Linux libc, wasn't it?
03:15:26 <pikhq_> No, no, hamm was that transition.
03:15:48 <pikhq_> Yup, potato *non-C++* binaries will still work.
03:16:53 <pikhq_> (C++ ABI has had a breakage since then)
03:27:44 <Gregor> Call to undefined symbol __setfpucw
03:27:44 <Gregor> Call to undefined symbol __libc_init
03:27:44 <Gregor> Call to undefined symbol atexit
03:37:12 <Gregor> Program terminated with signal 11, Segmentation fault.
03:37:12 <Gregor> #0 0x0804c306 in ?? ()
03:43:32 <Gregor> 804c306: f6 44 43 01 40 testb $0x40,0x1(%ebx,%eax,2)
03:44:00 <quintopia> i'll see your "hmmmmmmm" and raise you a "hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm"
03:44:25 <Gregor> Oh that's interesting, it's failing somewhere in the result of getopt_long_only ...
03:46:09 <Gregor> ... why is it dereferencing the result of getopt_long_only ...
03:46:39 <Gregor> Did getopt_long_only used to have a different API?
03:48:13 <Gregor> Oh, never mind, I misread.
03:49:05 <Gregor> That's odd, it's dragging something out of BSS ... that's zeroed still ...
03:53:15 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:54:32 <zzo38> In this game http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSxiangqivsortho the inventor claims that there is no checkmate possible on first move. However, me and two other people say the Chinese side can checkmate immediately if they play first. Look at the picture (under "Setup"), it should be clear. What do *you* think?
03:55:45 <zzo38> Actually, *three* other people.
03:56:48 <Gregor> Seems like FreeBSD and GNU might have incompatible internal __mbrtowc functions :P
03:57:04 <zzo38> Gregor: What are __mbrtowc functions?
03:57:47 <Gregor> mbrtowc - convert a multibyte sequence to a wide character // essentially a UTF-8 to UCS-16 converter (in the common Unicode case)
03:58:00 <Gregor> But it's implemented as a macro on both FreeBSD and GNU.
03:58:15 <Gregor> To different versions of an internal __mbrtowc >_>
03:58:38 <Gregor> OHHEY! I just ran BSD pwd!
03:59:14 <zzo38> OK, now I know. Could you possibly make a kind of program patching for this?
03:59:57 <Gregor> zzo38: That's what I'm doing when there are functions that simply aren't supported on the other system, but it's harder when they're just incompatible >_>
04:04:08 <zzo38> How should I make the icon for the Courier piece in Courier Chess?
04:04:24 <Gregor> ... by finding someone who can draw? :P
04:04:24 <zzo38> (It is called "courier" and also "runner")
04:05:05 <zzo38> And my question is what kind of shape.
04:05:56 <Gregor> pikhq_: Stupidly, old (like, libc5 old) Linux binaries are being more difficult than FreeBSD binaries :P
04:06:30 <pikhq_> Gregor: BSD is better-written. ;)
04:07:35 <zzo38> Some of the pieces including FIDE chess, I just look at the SVG files in Wikipedia and typed in the same numbers. And for compound Archbishop/Marshal/Amazon, I take parts of it and make combined. Some pieces I look at other example and put my own numbers in. But some is difficult.
04:10:36 <zzo38> That is why I ask about Courier Chess.
04:39:03 -!- augur has joined.
04:47:13 <Sgeo> And, doing the recitation video's problem, I flat out forget that dot products are scalars
04:47:25 <Sgeo> I only remembered as the guy started speaking
04:48:28 <pikhq_> I am *very* disappointed at the limits on radiation.
04:49:13 <pikhq_> The legal limit for radiation level in irradiation is a bit too low to allow for *shelf-stable meat*.
04:52:09 <Sgeo> "For which angle θ is the component of A in the direction of B equal to 0."
04:52:26 <Sgeo> Is it bad if I don't do any math for that probem since the answer is so blatently obvious?
04:59:01 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:08:33 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:08:47 <zzo38> I write some computer programs for Free Geek and make some changes to their other programs that I have been asked to do. I also help them make whatever documents and stuff they need in TeX, and make their logo in METAFONT.
05:11:18 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: This is a quit message!!! Now you have to play chess!!!).
05:12:59 <Sgeo> Solution sheet did not list theta=3pi/2 as an answer
05:13:03 <Sgeo> Who do I complain to?
05:13:47 <Sgeo> Then again, they also didn't list 2pi + pi/2 as an answer, and I wouldn't expect them to
05:20:28 -!- augur has joined.
05:20:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:29:59 * pikhq_ would like to beat everyone who thinks that English is and/or should be the sole language of the United States.
05:30:35 <pikhq_> Official languages of members of the United States include: English, Hawai'ian, Samoan, Chamorro, Carolinian, Spanish, French, and German.
05:31:28 <pikhq_> Though Finland could join the US, thereby solving that.
05:31:53 <pikhq_> Only really takes the consent of Finland & Congress.
05:32:16 <pikhq_> Or enough insanity to engage in a war of conquest.
05:33:28 <oklopol> would be pretty cool if we suddenly decided to invade usa, flew there and started beating ppl up
05:34:00 -!- augur has joined.
05:34:08 <pikhq_> One of the few quick fixes to our political system. :P
05:34:23 <oklopol> there's five million of us so if we went to new york, each of us would only have to beat up a few guys
05:34:49 <pikhq_> Man, just taking over New York would really fuck up the US.
05:35:06 <oklopol> i read somewhere really reliable that we have the second most weapons per guy in here. unfortunately you were the first.
05:35:20 <pikhq_> Not that it'd stop Congress from wanting to nuke New York after that.
05:35:34 <pikhq_> Good thing Congress doesn't have the power to nuke anything.
05:35:48 <pikhq_> *Unfortunately*, the President can nuke anything for any reason whatsoever at any time.
05:36:05 <oklopol> maybe that's the big change obama meant
05:36:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:36:21 <pikhq_> Not even joking about that, though.
05:36:34 <oklopol> well yeah that's what i've understood
05:36:41 <pikhq_> There is always one guy near the President with the equipment to signal a launch.
05:36:59 <oklopol> that is sorta hard to believe
05:38:02 <pikhq_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_football Not fucking kidding.
05:57:09 -!- augur has joined.
05:57:18 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:03:56 -!- augur has joined.
06:19:11 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
06:20:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:22:16 <fizzie> Nuclear football, the sport of real men.
06:22:49 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to Alex_Megaroide.
06:25:24 -!- Slereah has joined.
06:35:59 -!- asiekierka has joined.
06:36:07 <quintopia> you mean european nuclear football, right?
06:36:29 <quintopia> you're referencing pikhq_'s comment
06:36:40 <quintopia> which is undoubtedly an article about the "briefcase"
06:55:15 <pikhq_> Which is called a football for stupid reasons.
07:00:07 <quintopia> presumably because it is meant to be protected by the person carrying it the way a runningback protects a football
07:02:54 <pikhq_> quintopia: No, because of media.
07:08:14 -!- variable has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:16:07 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
07:46:03 * cheater00 is very happy because he's getting a free LYAH book
07:51:04 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
07:51:11 <Ilari> APNIC space fragmentation (total amount of non-reserved blocks of space smaller than): 1M: 1.786, 512k: 1.442, 256k: 0.895, 128k: 0.629, 64k: 0.329, 32k: 0.229, 16k: 0.154, 8k: 0.096, 4k: 0.062, 2k: 0.036, 1k: 0.024, 512: 0.017.
07:53:50 <Ilari> Yes, APNIC has over /14 (256k) worth of /24s. Allocating those would take fair amount of time, except that allocations start to seriously fragment when larger blocks are gone.
07:56:22 -!- augur has joined.
07:57:32 -!- Slereah has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:02:14 <Ilari> Just those small blocks will create something like 1500 fragments by the time APNIC depletes.
08:04:50 <Ilari> APNIC current maximum block size is 1M, so anything above that will be fragmented.
08:05:42 <Ilari> 2M would fragment into 2 blocks, 4M would fragment into 4, 8M would fragment into 11.
08:08:11 -!- Alex_Megaroide has changed nick to wareya.
08:18:45 -!- cheater99 has joined.
08:19:45 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
08:26:49 <cheater99> Ilari: why would 8m fragment into 11?
08:28:24 <Ilari> There's only 5 1M blocks (and nothing larger non-reserved).
08:30:31 <Ilari> Large blocks are going to run out much faster than smaller ones, causing loads of fragmentation.
08:33:31 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
08:40:02 -!- Slereah has joined.
09:20:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:42:11 <cheater99> Ilari: can't they defragment them?
09:43:10 <cheater99> it would be perfectly imaginable people would be willing to swap blocks
09:43:45 <Ilari> That would mean renumbering, and renumbering is big amount of work, especially with IPv4.
09:44:05 -!- augur has joined.
09:45:23 <Ilari> With IPv6, renumbering is somewhat easier, and allocation strategies will also result much less renumbering as blocks grow.
09:47:41 <Ilari> Oh, and while APNIC will be source of something like only 1500 fragments, IP address transfers will result in loads more.
09:48:20 -!- cheater- has joined.
09:48:21 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:44:02 <augur> http://satwcomic.com/how-to-keep-friends
11:23:08 -!- cheater99 has joined.
11:23:09 -!- cheater99 has left (?).
11:23:26 -!- cheater99 has joined.
11:24:36 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
11:42:46 <Ilari> According to latest stats file, APNIC has 35 202 304 IPv4 addresses available. That's barely over /7 worth of space (/6.93).
11:43:11 <cheater99> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_number
11:49:22 -!- hagb4rd2 has joined.
11:52:29 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
11:53:30 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
11:57:25 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
11:57:54 -!- copumpkin has joined.
12:46:10 -!- FireFly has joined.
13:13:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
13:20:26 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
13:25:16 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
13:25:51 -!- hagb4rd2 has changed nick to hagb4rd.
13:26:31 -!- cheater99 has joined.
13:32:15 -!- cheater00 has joined.
13:34:08 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
13:56:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:57:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:43:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
14:43:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
14:44:54 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
14:51:34 <Gregor> $ ./src/gelfload /bin/bash
14:51:35 <Gregor> Symbol undefined: '__gmon_start__'
14:51:41 * Gregor was wondering why it wasn't working.
14:51:51 <Gregor> The reason: Oh, it was working perfectly, I'm just an idiot :P
14:52:08 <Gregor> (Turns out THAT'S WHAT BASH LOOKS LIKE DURP)
14:56:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, does this mean that Microcosm isn't actually utterly dead?
14:57:16 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Microcosm is a project that I refuse to make entirely my project, so it is as alive as other people are willing to let it be :P
14:57:26 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: gelfload on the other hand is alive and well, but distinct from Microcosm.
14:57:45 <Phantom_Hoover> But it ground to a halt when you couldn't work out a VFS structure you liked, no?
14:58:08 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
14:58:18 <Gregor> That's because everybody wanted ME to do the VFS, all I wanted was for there to BE a VFS.
14:58:43 <Gregor> I'd be happy for somebody else to design (and implement :P ) it, I just don't want to get stuck with direct FS, since that'll make Windows a lame duck.
14:59:51 <Gregor> And retarded limitations on file naming, not the best mapping of modes, etc.
15:04:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:21:24 -!- asiekierka has joined.
15:21:54 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/17/virginia-middle-school-students-suspended-for-oregano-possession/?test=latestnews
15:21:59 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:22:05 -!- asiekierka has joined.
15:23:30 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
15:39:22 -!- cheater00 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:40:24 -!- cheater99 has joined.
15:41:16 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: However, Microcosm or otherwise, I do have this:
15:41:31 <Gregor> $ ./src/gelfload ./src/gelfload ./src/gelfload ./src/gelfload ./src/gelfload ./src/gelfload ./src/gelfload ./src/gelfload ./src/gelfload ./src/gelfload # INCEPTION
15:43:22 <Gregor> (Note that that only works by complete coincidence, btw :P
15:47:15 <Gregor> Well, gelfload only works because it's configured to be loaded by the host ELF (or whatever) loader into an area of memory that it's unlikely that the guest ELF will be loaded into.
15:47:37 <Gregor> It just so happens that when loading itself, the process of replacing that area of memory with ... well, itself is sufficiently atomic to not segfault.
15:48:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, so it's theoretically possible for gelfload to fail for no apparent reason due to unfortunate allocation?
15:48:31 <Gregor> Yes, but by that token it's theoretically possible for /lib/ld-linux.so to fail for the same reason.
15:48:57 <Gregor> Well, I could intentionally make a binary that would fail in that way :P
15:49:07 <Gregor> But binaries made for ELF/Linux know where ld-linux is.
15:49:19 <Gregor> They of course don't know where gelfload is.
15:51:27 -!- hagb4rd has changed nick to hagb4rd|afk.
15:54:44 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/low.tar.bz2 <-- done
15:55:03 <Gregor> Apparently ld-linux is just barely smart enough to not load over itself, so it kills itself instead.
15:55:37 <Gregor> The result though is just "Killed" to stderr and $? == 137
15:57:26 <Ilari> Does it issue the signal to self or is that kernel killing process after exec goes sour too late to back it off?
15:57:40 <Gregor> The kernel has no idea.
15:57:45 <Gregor> It's totally userland.
15:58:05 <Gregor> The kernel doesn't even know how to load dynamic binaries.
15:58:06 <Ilari> strace should show it then?
15:58:37 <Gregor> strace can have ... unique behavior when things go wrong in the loader :P
15:59:01 -!- impomatic has joined.
15:59:32 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.26: 1k to Malaysia, 3x1M+512k+3x256k to China, 256 to India. 1.84 blocks remain.
16:00:15 <Ilari> Logaritmic size: /7.120
16:00:55 <Ilari> Relative allocation size: 12.4% (!)
16:01:54 <Ilari> Oh, and two of those 1M blocks were part of 2M block APNIC didn't have space to allocate in one block.
16:19:11 <Ilari> The existing January monthly record has already been slammed (and it has been only 18 days instead of full 31).
16:19:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:20:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:22:12 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Apparently ld-linux is just barely smart enough to not load over itself, so it kills itself instead. <-- what are you doing for this to be of relevance?
16:22:26 <Ilari> I get 30-day figure of 2.34. Ouch.
16:24:15 <Vorpal> <Gregor> strace can have ... unique behavior when things go wrong in the loader :P <-- strange, after all it just ptraces system calls
16:24:16 <Ilari> At that rate, depletion in about 3.5 weeks.
16:24:17 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, hmm?
16:24:54 -!- cheater00 has joined.
16:25:00 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I think Chrome has a thing where it submits inability to connect to some Google server, and if a lot of people can't connect...
16:25:10 <Vorpal> Ilari, when is depletion for RIPE?
16:25:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, it couldn't connect to the page because *my WiFi was down*.
16:26:51 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
16:28:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, stracing low shows it dying during the execve call.
16:29:01 <Ilari> Vorpal: Lagerholm (ipv4depletion.com) says 2012-10-17. Huston (potaroo.net) doesn't seem to give estimate until APNIC depletes (and RIPE becomes next). RIPE itself says "this year".
16:30:12 <Ilari> For some reason, Lagerholm gives really optimistic estimates for RIRs. Huston is much more pessimistic (might not be as pessimistic as reality). With IANA depletion, it was the other way around.
16:31:16 <Ilari> Also, ARIN says "this year".
16:32:18 <Ilari> Haha. Reading comment by Huston written in November: "A less conservative model that uses settings that reflect continued escalation of demand through 2011 now forecasts APNIC exhausting its address pools in September 2011."
16:33:26 <Ilari> Heck, now it is mostly question of if depletion occurs in first or second half of April (The current huston estimate of May 5th looks quite overly optimistic).
16:37:37 -!- cheater99 has joined.
16:38:36 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
16:40:04 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
16:41:50 -!- sftp has joined.
17:01:28 <oklopol> "<cheater00> oklopol: wait, you're finnish??" <<< yes, what else?
17:02:56 <oklopol> i figured my decent knowledge of the finnish language was a dead giveaway
17:05:57 <olsner> everyone's finnish in here
17:09:44 <cheater99> oklopol: i know a little about suomi without being finnish!
17:10:35 <oklopol> do you know the language or the country?
17:11:43 <oklopol> i don't get why anyone would learn the language, but everyone seems to know "yksi, kaksi, kulma, nljy"
17:12:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I know that the country completely failed at mocking gullible foreigners.
17:13:51 <Phantom_Hoover> That's *classic* gullible foreigner material right there.
17:14:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm saying you shouldn't *unless* it enables you to mock gullible foreigners.
17:15:38 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:15:40 <oklopol> maybe we could mock them by telling them we don't roll in the snow naked and when they go "figured" we could laugh behind their backs and go back to the sauna
17:16:01 <Zwaarddijk> what I don't get is swimming in holes in the ice.
17:16:25 -!- Mannerisky has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
17:16:49 <Zwaarddijk> but bagpipes were pretty common all over europe
17:17:03 <oklopol> Zwaarddijk: you've tried and disliked?
17:17:15 <Zwaarddijk> it's just the British Empire's Army's bagpipe corps that've made them associated with Scotland
17:17:23 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: tried and liked and lapsed from liking
17:18:39 <oklopol> i haven't done it for a while either, although multiple times this winter
17:19:07 <cheater99> klop: i like the fact that suomi is similar to hungarian and japanese, from grammar
17:19:18 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: how? i still dgi
17:19:21 <Zwaarddijk> Phantom_Hoover: I figured that was the Scots tricking themselves into it
17:19:37 <cheater99> Phantom_Hoover: i've had really good haggis, but it was sold at waitrose in london, which is this posh supermarket.
17:19:46 <Zwaarddijk> sort of being gullible at being distinct from the english
17:19:48 <cheater99> Phantom_Hoover: i wouldn't dare eat it from say a stand or a pub somewhere.
17:20:53 <Zwaarddijk> cheater99: the similarity to japanese is less than commonly claimed
17:21:00 <oklopol> heat: i don't think we have anything in common with the japanese grammar, at least based on what i know sofar
17:21:17 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: japanese almost has a case system
17:21:28 <cheater99> Zwaarddijk: knowing both japanese and finnish is less than common.
17:21:44 <Zwaarddijk> I know three our four people that know passable japanese and finnish
17:22:10 <Zwaarddijk> I've read typological accounts of Japanese
17:22:15 <oklopol> finnish is more head-last than english?
17:22:19 <Zwaarddijk> and I consider reading a reference grammar at some point
17:23:28 <oklopol> that indeed is a similarity
17:24:26 <Zwaarddijk> Phantom_Hoover: heads of phrases go after dependants
17:24:27 -!- cal153 has joined.
17:25:10 <Zwaarddijk> Phantom_Hoover: so like, English is head-first, since the head of a noun phrase (the article), goes first, the head of a prepositional phrase goes before the noun phrase, the head of the verb phrase (the verb) goes before the arguments
17:25:15 <oklopol> according to my tiny understanding, head-last = stack-based
17:25:27 -!- lament has joined.
17:25:40 <Zwaarddijk> however, both english and finnish are somewaht inconsistent
17:25:46 <Zwaarddijk> japanese is very consistently head-last
17:26:44 <oklopol> lament: that's a VERY cute smiley
17:30:02 -!- wth has joined.
17:30:06 -!- wth has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:30:07 <lament> you mean not head-last
17:30:22 -!- wth has joined.
17:30:34 -!- wth has left (?).
17:30:55 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i think that was his joke to begin with
17:31:32 <Zwaarddijk> maybe i should try and get my hands on a japanese reference grammar
17:32:37 <oklopol> i should actually be studying japanese right now
17:32:48 <Zwaarddijk> I am part of the conlanging-community, and into typology and stuff like that
17:32:56 <Zwaarddijk> so it's not that far from my usual interests.
17:36:13 <oklopol> so what are the java and c++ of natural languages
17:36:36 <oklopol> and what's the ithkuil of esolangs
17:36:38 <Zwaarddijk> i would claim you can pick any two languages
17:36:53 <olsner> python might be Simple English
17:36:58 <Zwaarddijk> such that one of the is the java and the other is the c++
17:37:19 <oklopol> ithkuil is that thing where every feature of every existing language works in perfect unison
17:37:29 -!- wth has joined.
17:37:45 <oklopol> english sucks as much as the rest of them
17:37:55 <Zwaarddijk> Phantom_Hoover: I do, but I know several other langs as well
17:37:55 -!- wth has left (?).
17:38:03 <Zwaarddijk> and i find the most commonly cited reasons why English suck
17:38:10 <Zwaarddijk> are based on misunderstandings of how languages work
17:38:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Most programming languages suck, though, except those designed deliberately and carefully.
17:39:00 <oklopol> does that mean it's not the perfect language
17:39:22 <oklopol> natural languages suck all kinds of ass
17:39:34 <Zwaarddijk> natural languages are pretty well adapted to things though
17:39:44 <Zwaarddijk> I mean, look at the most "engineered" languages for human communication
17:39:55 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:40:34 <Zwaarddijk> but uh, there's a clear reason why we need redundancy, and that's why linguistic evolution so often converged on encoding things reduntantly
17:41:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Redundancy isn't so much my problem as incessant special-casing.
17:41:27 <Zwaarddijk> the special casing is a kind of optimization as well
17:41:34 <Zwaarddijk> it also does contribute to redundancy!
17:42:07 <Zwaarddijk> if all past tense verbs ended in -ed, that'd slightly increase the likelihood for mishearings
17:42:41 <Zwaarddijk> but uh, the special casing is often the result of a kind of inertia
17:43:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but that doesn't make memorising it any less stupid.
17:43:35 <Zwaarddijk> well, lots of verb forms that are regular are probably memorized anyway
17:44:28 <Zwaarddijk> there's some experiments that show that inflecting takes more time than recalling from memory
17:45:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't dispute that, but memorising special cases takes longer than memorising roots and inflection rules.
17:46:17 <Zwaarddijk> usually though, the irregular verbs are very commonly used ones
17:46:56 <Zwaarddijk> per verb, that is, not more often than the regular way of doing it
17:47:01 <Gregor> HEY VORPAL YOU SHOULD WRITE A VFS FOR MICROCOSM
17:47:20 <oerjan> <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Microcosm is a project that I refuse to make entirely my project, so it is as alive as other people are willing to let it be :P
17:47:33 <oerjan> so basically it's the ultimate experiment in lazy evaluation?
17:47:47 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I ELECT YOU BUT ONLY IF YOU WRITE THE VFS
17:48:15 <Phantom_Hoover> NO VORPAL CAN WRITE IT AND I WILL MAKE SURE HE DOESN'T MAKE IT STUPID
17:48:47 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: GOOD LUCK
17:49:12 <olsner> WE'RE LIKE THAT GUY IN DILBERT
17:50:23 <oklopol> I NEVER QUITE GOT WHAT THE POINT OF LOWERCASE IT
17:50:56 <oklopol> NOT REALLY, THIS WAY YOU DON'T HAVE TO PRESS SHIFT
17:51:08 <oklopol> WAIT, I NEVER DO THAT ANYWAY
17:52:12 <oklopol> I GOT THAT AFTER SAYING MY SAYINGS
17:52:32 <oklopol> SO YEAH I SUPPOSE THAT'S THE REASON
17:52:34 <Phantom_Hoover> THAT IS WHY THE ROMANS USED UPPERCASE: THEY WROTE BY CUTTING LINES INTO A MEDIUM
17:52:34 <oerjan> <Ilari> Haha. Reading comment by Huston written in November: "A less conservative model that uses settings that reflect continued escalation of demand through 2011 now forecasts APNIC exhausting its address pools in September 2011."
17:53:00 <oerjan> consider this a rehearsal of the singularity ;D
17:53:46 <oerjan> (if things turn asymptotic, i think very few human beings have any working intuition about it)
17:53:51 <oklopol> so i can't really parse Ilari's announcements, are there still ip4 addresses left?
17:54:13 <oerjan> oklopol: in the regional registrars, yes
17:54:29 -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:54:54 -!- cheater00 has joined.
17:55:18 <oklopol> does africa have the same amount as europe?
17:56:04 <oklopol> because i think we have more internets than they do
17:56:10 <oerjan> europe is probably running out much faster, although they both got 1 /8 block at the global runout
17:56:30 <oerjan> (the europe RIR also includes the middle east)
17:57:12 <oerjan> africa is the smallest of them
17:57:22 <oklopol> does /8 mean a 256th of the whole space?
17:58:08 <oklopol> k i would've figured it'd be /24
17:58:13 <oerjan> APNIC (asian/pacific) is using much faster than the others again, though
17:58:30 <oklopol> actually maybe /8 is better
17:58:57 <oerjan> however as the last one to allocate normally, they got a bit extra at that point
18:00:38 <pikhq_> But they're still allocating at absurd rates.
18:00:50 <oerjan> <oklopol> i figured my decent knowledge of the finnish language was a dead giveaway
18:00:53 <Vorpal> <Gregor> HEY VORPAL YOU SHOULD WRITE A VFS FOR MICROCOSM <-- yes maybe during the summer, I don't have time now
18:01:06 <oerjan> well the rest us cannot _know_ it's decent, you could be just making gibberish
18:01:52 <Vorpal> oerjan, what about google translate? if it can't translate any of the words at all then it is likely to be gibberish for example
18:01:56 <oerjan> hakkapellittäan oklopoli on koskenkorvat
18:02:05 <oklopol> oerjan: i had a decent length conversation with Zwaarddijk in finnish tho. but i guess i could've planned this with him in pm
18:02:10 <Vorpal> oklopol, that looks plausible
18:02:56 <oerjan> that's due to my decent knowledge of the finnish gibberish
18:03:02 <pikhq_> oerjan ro'hìȳaku sannhiȳaku kuwasî ha ne! neko neko kawaî!
18:03:24 <Vorpal> so what does those words mean?
18:03:25 <oklopol> why would you put an there
18:03:59 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, hey, you're not stupid; can you do the VFS for Microcosm?
18:04:02 <pikhq_> oklopol: darukadaruka muhame'tò sìha'tò no tè.
18:04:02 <oerjan> oklopol: well i thought there had to be a new root inside there, so the last part was frontal
18:04:07 <oklopol> i still have no idea what you meant though
18:04:13 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Can? Probably. Will? Probably not.
18:04:43 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, dammit, that's two of us. Except if I did it all chance of Windows portability would be out of the window.
18:05:08 <Vorpal> <pikhq_> oklopol: darukadaruka muhame'tò sìha'tò no tè. <-- what is this?
18:05:38 <Vorpal> pikhq_, looks like a mix of Japanese and some language Tolkin made up :P
18:06:05 <oklopol> in the first one you almost said 600 300 then kuwa is some sort of farm related tool and then cat cat cute
18:06:06 <pikhq_> Vorpal: It's an attempt to transcribe Arabic-esque jibberish into Japanese that I fucked up because I need coffee.
18:06:31 <pikhq_> oklopol: "Oerjan 600 300 explain, right? Cat cat cute!"
18:06:44 <pikhq_> The last bit was, of course, because of non-Japanese otaku.
18:07:26 <pikhq_> ... Waaait, that's not it, is it.
18:07:30 <pikhq_> Fucking hell I need coffee.
18:08:25 <pikhq_> kuwasii "detailed, accurate, well-informed"...
18:09:27 <oklopol> sannhiȳaku <<< shouldn't you have the hi -> bi thing somewhere?
18:09:34 <Sgeo> Ok, I officially suck at determining that things suck
18:09:36 <oklopol> i still don't know this notation :\
18:09:40 <pikhq_> oklopol: I really need coffee.
18:09:42 <Sgeo> I had no opinion of Rebecca Black's "Friday"
18:09:49 <pikhq_> That should be sannhìȳaku, yes.
18:10:15 <pikhq_> That's how you encode moraic "n" in my notation.
18:10:34 <Sgeo> By not hating something that the world seems to hate.
18:11:06 <oklopol> pikhq_: that much i reverse-engineered
18:11:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what thing? Windows ME?
18:11:29 <oklopol> and actually the rest too, except for that n thing, i suppose
18:11:40 <pikhq_> Helps that it's quite regular.
18:12:11 <pikhq_> "Every kana is encoded in one or two characters". Easy.
18:12:13 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD2LRROpph0
18:12:22 <oklopol> kana means chicken in finnish
18:12:35 * Sgeo lols at all the critical comments being marked as spam
18:12:42 <Vorpal> Sgeo, might check later.
18:13:03 <pikhq_> It means temporary notation in Japanese. :P
18:13:14 <oklopol> actually katakana means use the chicken as a table in finnish
18:13:24 <oklopol> well. not exactly, but anyhow.
18:14:16 <lament> japanese people are too crazy
18:14:20 <Zwaarddijk> more like "set the chicken", where "set" is used as the verb in "set the table"
18:14:56 <Vorpal> Zwaarddijk, dining on a chicken? awesome idea
18:16:18 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:16:24 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:18:42 <pikhq_> lament: No, English speakers are too crazy.
18:18:50 <pikhq_> The Japanese people just don't give a shit.
18:23:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not even Gene Ray?
18:23:15 <Vorpal> (a most unusual name too)
18:24:26 -!- Slereah has joined.
18:27:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes but the combination sounds quite weird :P
18:29:58 <Gregor> "differently sane" X-D
18:39:14 <Gregor> Also, combining a common first name with a common last name does not necessarily yield a common name.
18:39:24 <Gregor> You don't see too many Nguyen McTavishes.
18:46:44 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:48:32 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:52:44 -!- Slereah has joined.
18:55:58 <oerjan> sven smith is probably not that rare in scandinavia...
18:56:57 <oklopol> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooko
18:58:03 <oerjan> hm actually the top google hits seem to all be in english
18:59:07 <oerjan> svein smith on the other hand gives many norwegian hits (although that's with norwegian google)
18:59:45 <oerjan> hm actually that's probably mainly one person, svein smith-meyer
18:59:47 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:59:58 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokoko
19:00:05 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
19:00:27 <oerjan> who seems to be a ceo kind of guy
19:02:17 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a guy in my school who thinks the fact that itanimulla.com redirects to nsa.gov is incontrovertible proof that the Illuminati control the government.
19:02:56 <oklopol> because it's an anagram of illuminata?
19:03:36 <ais523> surely a redirect the other way would potentially be proof, but that way round is irrelevant?
19:04:57 <oerjan> um actually it's not an anagram, there's an i/a mismatch
19:05:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I tried to tell him that, but it's nigh impossible to reason people out of positions they didn't reason themselves into.
19:05:12 <oklopol> it certainly is an anagram of illuminata
19:05:47 <oerjan> like the illuminati, just more neutral
19:06:19 <oklopol> damnit, guy at #math stopped asking why the zero vector alone forms a vector space
19:07:06 <oerjan> you mean he actually got it?
19:07:08 <ais523> oklopol: it wouldn't form a very /useful/ vector space...
19:07:48 <oklopol> oerjan: no, "<weia> moses: do this exercise on your own (that's all there is to it): Let F be any field and X any singleton set. Show that there is exactly one way to endow X with a K-vector space structure (addition, K-scalar multiplication, zero)." "<moses> weia: i will" "<moses> bbl"
19:08:27 <oklopol> if you don't have the zero space, many things become more complicated to state
19:08:51 <oerjan> vector spaces are varieties, and all varieties have trivial members
19:09:19 <oklopol> also what oerjan said although that's essentially the same thing
19:09:39 <oklopol> variety = closed under subthings and products and homosexual images
19:09:57 <oklopol> so not having {0} would be a silly exception
19:10:14 <oerjan> that = should be an equivalence though, i don't think they usually take that as the definition
19:10:29 <oklopol> i saw it as a definition *today*
19:11:12 <oklopol> if you just have finite direct products
19:11:22 <oklopol> then you don't get that varieties = equation defined shit
19:11:29 <oklopol> that varieties are that in some eventual sense
19:11:52 <oklopol> i don't know what that sense is because the article about this couldn't be found on the internets :(
19:11:58 <oerjan> i don't recall but i may have touched by it
19:13:06 <oklopol> but were you touched by it?
19:13:09 <oerjan> i recall there's a connection between monads over Set and varieties with possibly infinite operations, though
19:13:11 <oklopol> i guess not if you don't recall it
19:13:57 <oerjan> i'm not sure if that could be similar to what you say
19:14:39 <oerjan> this i read in an encyclopedia (paper) article about monads, though
19:17:03 -!- copumpkin has joined.
19:18:01 <Ilari> APNIC relative allocations in last 30 days: Something like 86.8%. Insane. Just plain insane.
19:18:11 <oerjan> ok this is far too dense for my brain http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(category_theory)#Algebras_for_a_monad
19:18:18 <pikhq_> Some 0.25 /8s were allocated today, right?
19:18:41 <Ilari> That is, over 5 times the rate of entiere rest of the world combined.
19:18:53 <oerjan> i was hoping for something specialized to Set
19:19:07 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:19:19 <Ilari> Last 30 days rate for APNIC is now something like 2.34 blocks.
19:19:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:20:51 <Ilari> Which is something utterly insane.
19:21:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:21:54 * pikhq_ builds GCC for reasons of hopefully awesome
19:22:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:22:46 <Ilari> For this year as whole: 4.30 blocks.
19:25:58 <Ilari> 77 days. And over half of those addresses have been allocated in last 30 days. Wow.
19:26:05 <oklopol> oerjan: i got stuck at the adjoint functors part
19:26:10 <ais523> how many blocks does APNIC have left?
19:27:03 <Ilari> 1.84 (not couting setaside block).
19:27:23 <pikhq_> oklopol: I'll just assume that I will understand that much better when I get further in my studies.
19:27:57 <oerjan> oh hm every pair of adjoint functors gives a monad, and every monad arises from such a pair in at least one way
19:28:19 <oklopol> yeah but what the hell is a pair of adjoint functors
19:29:04 <oklopol> i'll continue trying to understand ->
19:29:07 <oerjan> well a typical example is the free functor and the underlying functor for a variety of algebras
19:29:19 * pikhq_ looks forward to having a generally-usable link-time optimising compiler
19:29:53 <oerjan> say L is the functor which takes a set to the free monoid on the set, and R is the functor which takes a monoid to its underlying set
19:30:46 <oklopol> what's the free monoid on a set, S goes to all finite sequences of elements of S?
19:30:50 <oerjan> then L : Set -> Monoid and R : Monoid -> Set is an adjoint pair, and RL : Set -> Set is essentially Haskell's list monad
19:31:12 <Ilari> At 2.34 blocks per 30 days, depleting that would take 24 days. 24 days from now is 11th April.
19:31:14 <pikhq_> I'm presuming if "GCC, Mozilla Firefox, and other large applications" work, then GCC's LTO is actually functional.
19:31:29 <oklopol> i guess no one said they'd be
19:31:31 <oerjan> no, they are not usually inverses
19:32:05 <pikhq_> elliott would be so happy; this makes static linking worthwhile. :P
19:32:07 <oerjan> there are natural transformations that make them almost inverses, though
19:32:16 <pikhq_> Heck, might even make static linking against *glibc* practical.
19:33:03 <oerjan> Id -> RL is one, and that's the return for the list monad
19:33:50 <oerjan> LR -> Id may be coreturn for the list comonad, i'm not entirely sure
19:34:11 <oerjan> (for the example above)
19:34:17 <oklopol> but what does it mean for a bijection to be natural?
19:34:27 <oklopol> trying to get the wp article and that's hard :<
19:35:11 -!- FireFly has joined.
19:36:13 <oklopol> mostly because i'm not looking up the definition of naturality
19:36:23 <oerjan> that it is a natural transformation, i presume
19:36:49 <oerjan> naturality is pretty fundamental for category theory
19:36:55 <oklopol> oh one of those things natural transformations have between hom sets?
19:38:09 <pikhq_> No *wonder* oerjan finds Haskell so natural. He actually knows category theory, rather than things vaguely related to it! :P
19:38:21 <oerjan> the bijection should _be_ a natural transformation when restricted to each variable (and taking the most obvious functors to be a transformation between)
19:38:55 <oklopol> a natural transformation between what functors?
19:39:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone give me a decent syntax for unordered pairs in Haskell.
19:40:08 <oerjan> lessee hom_C(FY, X) -> hom_C(Y, GX)
19:40:09 <oklopol> yeah idgi, i don't see two categories with the same "domain and codomain" categories
19:41:39 <oerjan> so if you fix X, say, the left side is the composition of the hom_C(., X) functor with the F functor and the right side is simply the hom_C(. , GX) functor
19:42:21 <oerjan> and the bijection being a natural transformation between those is what it means to be "natural in Y"
19:43:09 <oklopol> let's dwell in "the hom_C(., X) functor" for a while
19:43:43 <oklopol> that's a function from C's objects to certain subsets of its morphisms
19:44:12 <oklopol> how do you make it a functor?
19:44:50 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:45:33 <oerjan> it's a functor from Set to Set, actually
19:46:13 <oerjan> which explains how this is all in one category
19:47:24 <copumpkin> we should legislate against unnatural transformations
19:47:40 <copumpkin> and I don't think they should be allowed to exist
19:47:47 * oerjan tries to make his memory work
19:48:28 <oerjan> or wait it's a functor from C to Set
19:49:17 <oerjan> an object Y in C is taken to the set hom_C(Y, X)
19:49:21 <oklopol> so you map an object Z to the set of morphisms from Z to X or what?
19:50:34 <oklopol> then if you have Z and Y in C, and morphism f : Z -> Y, then it goes to the set of morphisms you get by taking morphisms from Z to Y and adding a morphism from Y to X?
19:51:13 -!- Xuu has joined.
19:51:16 <oklopol> this covariance/contravariance thing is soooo complicated :D
19:51:18 -!- Zuu has quit (Quit: leaving).
19:51:31 <copumpkin> oklopol: not really, it's just functors on opposite categories
19:51:33 <oerjan> oh right one of those hom's is contravariant
19:51:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm trying to do unordered pairs, and I've just been told that (a ~ b) cannot be deduced.
19:51:58 <copumpkin> Phantom_Hoover: unordered heterogeneous pairs?
19:52:14 -!- Xuu has quit (Changing host).
19:52:14 -!- Xuu has joined.
19:52:14 <oerjan> the hom(., X) is contravariant iirc
19:52:28 -!- Xuu has changed nick to Zuu.
19:52:28 <copumpkin> oklopol: I've used that many times in the past :)
19:52:32 <oerjan> while hom(Y, .) is covariant
19:52:51 <oerjan> and yeah the functor on morphisms is just composition at the right side
19:53:53 <oklopol> but which one is contra and which is co
19:53:57 <ais523> oerjan: after all your and elliott's laughing about me about adding a computable-real type to C, I attended a seminar on Wednesday that demonstrated I wasn't talking nonsense after all
19:54:13 * oerjan doesn't recall laughing
19:54:45 <oerjan> oh you mean what it means
19:54:53 <oklopol> what does contra/co mean, those terms tell me exactly as much as Hom(., X) and the other
19:55:25 <oerjan> covariant is the "usual" functor, sending morphisms to morphisms in the "same" direction
19:55:42 <oerjan> contravariant switches the direction of the morphism on the end
19:56:13 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:56:38 <oerjan> so if you have a morphism f : A -> B, then F(f) : F(A) -> F(B) if it's covariant but F(f) : F(B) -> F(A) if it's contravariant
19:56:40 <ais523> the seminar even contained infinitary operations for a good reason
19:56:46 <oklopol> that's kinda obvious in the general case, but i can't seem to get it in this particular case with Set on the other end...
19:56:51 <ais523> normally, people just put infinitary operations in their languages to annoy my supervisor
19:57:48 <oklopol> that's just arbitrary of course
19:57:50 <oerjan> ok so if f : Y -> Z is a morphism in C, then since this is contravariant we want a morphism from Hom(Z, X) to Hom(Y, X)
19:58:18 <copumpkin> we have CT seminars at my job every friday :)
19:58:50 <oerjan> if g is in Hom(Z, X) then we use g . f
19:59:38 <oerjan> i recall we used the notation f^*(g) (in LaTeX)
20:00:27 <oerjan> and f_*(g) = f . g to make the other hom-functor Hom(Y, .)
20:00:45 <oerjan> (composing on the other end)
20:01:29 * oerjan learned all this originally for categories of modules over rings
20:03:59 <oklopol> okay i think i somewhat got what you said about naturality
20:04:06 <oklopol> but there's still some work to do
20:24:19 -!- augur has joined.
20:26:12 <oklopol> (i did other stuff too :P)
20:26:46 <oklopol> it's kinda hard to get all of these things in your head
20:27:03 <oklopol> you have two categories, and two functors, and Set and gah
20:27:13 <copumpkin> if you want category theory, I've implemented lots of fun stuff in agda
20:27:23 <copumpkin> in the most general way possible, unlike previous attempts
20:27:37 <copumpkin> for example, https://github.com/pumpkin/categories/blob/master/Category/NaturalTransformation.agda#L98
20:30:26 <oklopol> i'm sure this would be perfectly easy on paper, but i still find natural transformations kinda hard to picture when they occur in a "concrete" situation
20:30:49 <oklopol> the abstract definition is natural enough, so i'm sure i'd get it fast enough if i bumped into categories more often than ones every 2 months
20:30:57 <copumpkin> you should've been at our seminar today! people were having the same trouble there and I think we got rid of it
20:31:07 <augur> you and your seminars, copumpkin
20:31:40 <augur> wait, a you work with edwardk?
20:31:52 <oklopol> i have enough seminars to worry about as it is
20:32:21 <copumpkin> he's sitting across from me right now
20:33:48 <oklopol> so you could like, strangle him if you wanted to?
20:35:39 <oklopol> you should leave the room quickly and quietly, there are recorded cases of humans attacking other humans for no apparent reasons
20:35:49 -!- hagb4rd|afk has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
20:36:45 <copumpkin> oh, so I should just avoid all other humans?
20:37:44 <ais523> <oklopol> you should leave the room quickly and quietly, there are recorded cases of humans attacking other humans for no apparent reason <--- I like this quote, but HackEgo isn't here
20:39:04 <oklopol> copumpkin: i'm not saying you have to avoid humans, just keep an eye on them at all times
20:39:37 * augur makes copumpkin pie
20:40:00 <oklopol> and carry some money in your pocket so you can distract males if they get aggressive
20:40:47 <ais523> does money not work on females?
20:41:13 <oklopol> females are a bit trickier
20:41:30 -!- EgoBot has joined.
20:41:34 -!- HackEgo has joined.
20:42:02 * augur steals copumpkin's cookies
20:43:10 <augur> mein kampfy chair?
20:44:46 <augur> i aint chowin your kampf, gtfo
20:51:12 <ais523> (just in case my computer crashes again)
20:52:39 <ais523> hmm, that's Wed Apr 14 08:07:58 BST 2004
20:53:58 <lament> that was a great moment
20:54:57 <ais523> it lasted a whole second
21:09:49 <lament> i would read programming for philosophers
21:11:22 <Gregor> `echo ais523: I notice you don't even add the quote when he reappears :P
21:11:24 <HackEgo> ais523: I notice you don't even add the quote when he reappears :P
21:11:42 <ais523> `addquote <oklopol> you should leave the room quickly and quietly, there are recorded cases of humans attacking other humans for no apparent reason
21:11:43 <HackEgo> 336) <oklopol> you should leave the room quickly and quietly, there are recorded cases of humans attacking other humans for no apparent reason
21:41:11 <ais523> it's been relatively unfunny this year
22:30:25 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/Music/03/14/dixie.chicks.reut/
22:42:45 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.17/20110121150729]).
22:54:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:07:43 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
23:15:42 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:17:36 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:17:41 <zzo38> I did try out yoob.
23:30:49 <ais523> what did you think of it?
23:32:15 <zzo38> What I think is there should be a "load graph" for noit o' mnain worb. That is, there is a row on the graph for each ! and the pixel is lit when there is any ball in that position and dark otherwise.
23:34:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:34:59 <zzo38> Also, it seems you cannot edit unless you load an example first.
23:49:26 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:54:22 <zzo38> I do not want all the features of Wayland, and some things I would like changed. If I make a Linux system I could make the changes.
23:58:44 <zzo38> You said before that Ubuntu would change to Wayland. So I should make up a bit different kind.
23:59:04 <ais523> well, I doubt Ubuntu would be an ideal Linux distro for you anyway
23:59:29 <zzo38> Yes, I would make my own distribution instead of using Ubuntu or any other one.
22:13:11 -!- esowiki has joined.
22:13:11 -!- glogbot has joined.
22:13:25 <Gregor> OK, /now/ it shouldn't be so screwy :P
22:13:29 <esowiki> Logs: http://gregorr.dyndns.org:8080/logs/_esoteric/?C=N;O=D
22:14:07 <zzo38> The reason I want to know is in case of TCP/IP drivers that will use those invalid addresses for their internal use, and not conflict with anything since they are invalid. Actually, we should group the invalid addresses into two groups, "driver level" and "application level" invalid groups so that the driver and application program can use their own codes for internal use.
22:16:35 <zzo38> For example, if a IPv4 only program tries to connect to a IPv6 only server, then the driver can allocate a temporary IPv4 address for that connection. There might be other uses too; and maybe the application programs can also have their own uses different to these.
22:17:16 <fizzie> That sounds more like something you should configure on a per-network basis (in which case they can use the private address ranges) and not hardcode anywhere.
22:17:33 <Ilari> The "Future Use" block (240/4)?
22:18:19 <fizzie> There's that, though of course technically speaking it wouldn't be impossible for those to be used to something that'd conflict with your home-grown solution.
22:24:13 <fizzie> Purely as a hack you might also be able to do that particular job by allocating different "unlikely" addresses in the 127.0.0.0/8 block and then treating them specially, but of course that's not very legal.
22:45:30 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:58:45 <zzo38> Which is, why to designate some are driver level and some as application level. Then it will not conflict.
23:01:36 -!- augur has joined.
23:07:23 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:08:26 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
23:10:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:11:46 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
23:37:36 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: What is she doing in #esoteric? Is this your doing too?
23:37:44 <shachaf> Haskell does not qualify as esoteric.
23:39:11 <oklopol> but esoteric qualifies as a haskell
23:45:26 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:47:06 <oerjan> ALL HAIL PHANTOM_HOOVER, THE GREAT LAMBDABOT SUMMONER
23:51:08 -!- lambdabot has left.
23:51:32 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Take that.
23:51:40 * shachaf shouldn't abuse lambdabot bugs, actually.
23:51:45 -!- lambdabot has joined.
00:01:40 <pikhq_> zzo38: Wayland has hardly any features at all.
00:01:41 <zzo38> Yes. Still, Ubuntu is what is used at Free Geek, when I am there I am using the Ubuntu system (although there are things I do not like about it).
00:02:48 <pikhq_> Just about all it really does is combine the framebuffers of each program into the graphics card's framebuffer.
00:03:23 <Phantom_Hoover> The reason for this is that APT Guy has write access to its repositories.
00:03:44 <zzo38> It has some things I don't like, also there should be a few things added. And then make the window manager as a separate module.
00:03:55 -!- impomatic has joined.
00:03:57 <zzo38> But mostly, Wayland seems good idea.
00:04:07 <pikhq_> What features don't you like about it?
00:04:34 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, based on the fact that this is zzo, it's probably a weird mix of ludditism and hatred of bloat.
00:04:56 <pikhq_> And I doubt that making the window manager seperate is all that sane; it actually makes sense for there to be a bit more of a tight binding between compositing and window management these days.
00:05:34 <pikhq_> Not to mention that the Wayland design gives a window manager developer much more flexibility.
00:05:34 <zzo38> pikhq_: I mean, make it a separate module but that both modules are compiled together.
00:05:51 <pikhq_> zzo38: Oh. That's kinda-sorta what it actually has going on.
00:06:54 <pikhq_> zzo38: The intent is to have most of the functionality for compositing and such in a seperate library, so that someone making a specific compositor doesn't have to deal with much boilerplate.
00:07:59 <zzo38> I would have it without MIME types. Also without dragging, without non-rectangular windows, no dragging an icon from one window to another, and so on.
00:08:19 <zzo38> I would have selection buffers have PRIMARY,SECONDARY,CLIPBOARD like X has.
00:08:24 <pikhq_> MIME types is not part of Wayland at all.
00:08:58 <pikhq_> Dragging is implemented above.
00:08:58 <zzo38> pikhq_: I found a XML file that says some things about MIME types, though.
00:09:17 <pikhq_> Non-rectangular windows? What, you mean how there's an *alpha channel*?
00:09:57 <impomatic> I've got a Forth interpreter in under 600 bytes :-)
00:10:14 <zzo38> pikhq_: Well, I don't actually know. But I do not think there should be an alpha channel or shaped windows.
00:10:46 <zzo38> Also, the format for mouse pointer icons I would have a table with each mouse pointer icon 256 bytes, plus 1 byte to indicate the adjustment for hot spot of mouse pointer icons.
00:10:47 <pikhq_> It would take more effort to *not* support an alpha channel.
00:11:08 <pikhq_> You could implement a Wayland compositor with such a format.
00:11:33 <pikhq_> Remember, Wayland enforces *even less* policy than X.
00:12:01 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:12:22 <zzo38> Even if, there is alpha channel, and it would take more effort to make not support alpha channel, I would do so that using alpha channel is not guaranteed to work, according to my specification.
00:12:34 -!- Zuu_ has joined.
00:13:37 <pikhq_> zzo38: It is entirely up to the compositor how the alpha channel is handled.
00:13:56 <zzo38> I found also information about notification about the screen size. I would do it only the window manager is allowed to know the screen size, and all other programs only know the size of their window(s) and not the screen size.
00:14:02 <pikhq_> It could even be rendered as epilepsy-inducing flashing, if you so like.
00:15:58 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/g6fnk/microsoft_shuts_down_the_worlds_largest_spam/
00:16:06 <ais523> zzo38: what about games that want to size themselves to the screen?
00:16:08 <zzo38> I should deal with alpha channel in a bit different way: I write a specification that says there is no guarantee as to what will happen when the alpha channel is used, and then make the program to ignore the alpha channel.
00:16:26 <ais523> e.g. DNA Maze fullscreens itself if the screen isn't large enough to fit the window it wants to make plus a window border
00:16:29 <ais523> and windows itself otherwise
00:16:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:16:37 <pikhq_> zzo38: It would be entirely valid for a compositor to do that.
00:16:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't help but think that it's Microsoft's damn fault in the first place for getting the world into a situation with huge amounts of hardware running a pathetically insecure OS.
00:16:55 <zzo38> ais523: They would specify what size they want. So if they want 640x480 and the screen is larger, the program gets a 640x480 window.
00:17:22 <pikhq_> zzo38: Part of the *intent* of Wayland is to make full-screen display not a set of hacks.
00:17:23 <zzo38> That is, the client area of the window is 640x480, but the border and stuff is added on to that size.
00:17:48 -!- Zuu__ has joined.
00:18:11 -!- Zuu_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:18:41 <zzo38> pikhq_: Well, I think it should be up to the user to select full-screen mode (the window manager knows the screen size so that you can push the key combination for full screen and that resizes the window and tells the program that its window size is now [X,Y] where [X,Y] is the screen size.
00:19:46 <zzo38> The program does not need to know whether it is running full screen or not, it only needs to know the size of its window.
00:20:02 -!- impomatic has left (?).
00:22:05 <pikhq_> Most programs will want to render differently in full-screen mode than not.
00:22:21 <pikhq_> Not to mention that it's nice to have the program be able to do it.
00:23:17 <zzo38> I do not think so. Otherwise you will run two programs that both want full-screen and then you cannot tile the screen into multiple windows anymore.
00:24:41 <pikhq_> Seems to me that it'd be a simple matter for the compositor to just decide against allowing that.
00:35:10 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
00:35:34 -!- cheater- has joined.
00:38:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:41:31 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:58:35 -!- Zuu__ has quit (Quit: leaving).
01:34:17 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:35:04 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:42:04 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:43:48 -!- catseye has joined.
01:50:18 <zzo38> 256 bytes per mouse pointer icon may be too much, maybe 65 bytes for each icon is OK (one byte is for adjustment for hot spot)
01:55:02 -!- catseye has changed nick to cpressey.
01:56:40 <cpressey> i don't know what you are talking about, because i haven't read the logs, because my web browser thinks they are BIN files and wants to download them instead of letting me read them, so i will give you advice based on complete ignorance: you should use a compiled sprite for the mouse pointer icon
01:57:21 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
01:57:21 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
01:57:21 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
01:58:21 <cpressey> that way the hotspot can be recomputed on the fly as a function of mouse speed
01:58:47 <zzo38> cpressey: Can you prepend "view-source:" to make them ignore as binary file? Some browser can do that.
02:00:03 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:00:03 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
02:00:18 <zzo38> How is a compiled sprite used and how the hotspot is recomputed like that?
02:00:45 <cpressey> zzo38: view-source: worked! you are my hero for tonight
02:02:21 <cpressey> a compiled sprite is just any code: the intention is that it draws a sprite at (x,y), but there is of course no good way to enforce that. likewise, the hotspot could be a function that... takes (x,y) and returns (xh,yh), i suppose
02:03:05 <cpressey> i have to boot this recovery disc to see if i can get a windows bootloader back on this machine
02:03:23 <cpressey> will probably be back in a bit... unless something goes horribly wrong
02:03:34 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
02:05:07 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
02:09:58 <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zulEMWj3sVA <-- best Ohhhhh ching chong ling long ting tong response ever
02:15:37 -!- cpressey has joined.
02:16:18 <cpressey> yay! installing ubuntu only confused windows, it did not destroy it. and the recovery disc knew what was wrong immediately and fixed it without hassle.
02:16:30 -!- cpressey has quit (Client Quit).
02:20:14 -!- cpressey has joined.
02:22:11 -!- augur has joined.
02:23:09 <cpressey> speaking of text files that are binary files that are text files: it appears that it is not possible to open mycology.b98 in gedit. it just freaks out and asks you to reselect the encoding ad infinitum
02:29:39 <cpressey> (I implemented Befunge-93 in yoob and I'm looking to test it)
02:36:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:37:23 -!- augur has joined.
02:37:59 <zzo38> The reason I think of 65 bytes is two planes of 32 bytes each, 1 bit per pixel of 16x16, one plane for transparent/opaque, one plane for black/white; and one byte for the hotspot, which is 4 bits for X hotspot and 4 bits for Y hotspot. And then perhaps have 16 standard mouse icons.
02:38:28 <cpressey> running sanity.bf in Befunge-93 results in an infinite loop when the PC gets to the 'v' in the word 'invalid'
02:40:00 <cpressey> zzo38: having an entire plane for transparency makes it easier to implement, but it wastes a tiny bit of space (assuming transparent white and transparent black display the same)
02:40:16 <cpressey> i should read the log to find out what you're talking about
02:43:15 <zzo38> cpressey: Yes that would waste space but makes it simpler. And it does not waste too much space if they are only 16x16 icons and only 16 such icons are loaded at one time.
02:48:53 <cpressey> good ol' bef seems to fail mycology's test for Go West, which seems unlikely to be true
02:49:57 <cpressey> it probably loads the long lines wrong or something
03:00:36 <Gregor> http://sprunge.us/ICPT Facebook fun
03:03:34 <cpressey> oh, i think i see. if there are >80 characters on a line, the remainder get wrapped onto the next line. fun
03:11:10 -!- cheater99 has joined.
03:11:49 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
03:12:58 <cpressey> if i were king, all compiler error messages would contain the word 'somewhat'
03:13:34 <cpressey> foo.c:391: somewhat missing semicolon
03:25:12 <Gregor> Really, all error messages can be replaced with "I have no idea what the fuck is going on, but something is wrong here"
03:25:25 <Gregor> foo.c:391: I have no idea what the fuck is going on, but something is wrong here
03:25:31 <Gregor> First referenced in foo.h:32: I have no idea what the fuck is going on, but something is wrong here
03:59:16 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
04:00:12 -!- pikhq has joined.
04:06:00 <cpressey> zzo38: how are you planning to implement it? is this for Wayland, or X-windows, or whatever that is that was being discussed?
04:06:32 <Sgeo> pikhq, I playe a Pokemon battle against my friend
04:07:50 <cpressey> Deewiant: not sure if you care, but: bef's # has different behavior depending if it's on the north or west vs the south or east edge. (wrapping is implementing differently for + and - directions)
04:20:39 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
04:20:48 -!- pikhq has joined.
04:21:37 <cpressey> @0.v>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>#
04:22:42 <cpressey> bef now prints out '0 1 ', its previous incarnation (or running with the flag that enables backwards-compatible behavior) will just print '0 '
04:25:43 <zzo38> cpressey: I do not know quite yet how I plan to implemented it, but probably a variant of Wayland.
04:40:58 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:55:59 -!- augur has joined.
04:57:26 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
04:59:19 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
04:59:45 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
05:11:10 -!- Sgeo has joined.
05:13:42 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
05:13:48 -!- copumpkin has joined.
05:15:40 -!- cheater99 has joined.
05:28:37 -!- ak4d7 has joined.
05:39:21 -!- ak4d7 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
05:41:01 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:41:59 -!- wareya has joined.
05:54:43 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
05:54:43 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
05:54:43 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
05:56:56 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:56:56 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
06:09:20 <cpressey> alright then... new version of bef released, v2.22: http://catseye.tc/projects/bef/
06:09:31 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
06:13:54 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:15:03 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
06:17:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
06:41:58 -!- augur has joined.
07:22:06 <pikhq_> Dang, it's weird out tonight.
07:22:58 <pikhq_> Perigee at full moon is shockingly bright.
07:26:23 <augur> pikhq_: isnt it like 20% brighter?
07:26:26 <augur> something like that
07:26:42 <pikhq_> The brightness is quite noticable.
07:38:57 -!- asiekierka has joined.
07:40:32 <zzo38> I tried playing various raw picture files as raw audio files.
07:52:14 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:55:38 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
07:55:42 -!- pikhq has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:03:10 <pikhq> John Tyler, 10th president of the US, has 2 living *grandchildren*.
08:03:24 <pikhq> He was born in 1790.
08:11:08 <pikhq> Hrm. How odd would a case such as this be: "The Crown v. Her Majesty"? Is it even technically possible?
08:11:45 <pikhq> Well, *practically* it isn't, as the Queen could simply opt to exercise her ordinarily delegated authority as prosecutor in criminal cases.
08:22:51 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
08:24:20 -!- cal153 has joined.
08:38:29 -!- oerjan has joined.
08:40:12 -!- zzo38 has joined.
08:44:32 <zzo38> Can you figure out these number sequences?
08:45:49 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
08:46:00 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
08:50:49 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/numseq.txt
09:04:25 <cheater99> the next number in each of those sequences is 0, right?
09:05:52 <cheater99> pikhq_: let's say there's a law set out by one of the previous bearers of the crown that is still in effect that the current queen breaks
09:06:19 * oerjan was more thinking about the queen getting multiple personalities, but...
09:06:25 <cheater99> pikhq_: and this law then means that people in the institution ("the crown") have to sue the person ("her majesty")?
09:09:34 -!- wth has joined.
09:10:53 -!- wth has left (?).
09:19:28 <zzo38> cheater99: No they arenot zero
09:19:49 <Ilari> Hmm.. Lagerholm estimate for APNIC jumped from 13th to 2nd July (WTF, it is that optimistic???). Huston estimate jumped from May 5th to April 30th.
09:23:17 <Ilari> APNIC relative allocations for last 30 days: 87.9%. ~7.3x ROW.
09:30:32 <Ilari> Time when APNIC relative allocations were <1x RoW was only few months ago. :-/
09:34:02 <Ilari> All RIR allocation rates except APNIC are trending down. APNIC is rapidly shooting up, likely not decreasing until APNIC depletes.
09:36:34 <Ilari> It seems that the Huston estimate on RIPE NCC is overly pessimistic vs. recent events.
09:36:48 <cheater99> zzo38: there's no mathematical proof for that!
09:38:12 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
09:38:38 <Ilari> Of course, pretty much nothing can be predicted about what APNIC exhaustion will do to RIPE allocation rates.
09:39:29 <Ilari> And also to ARIN rates.
09:41:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
09:41:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host).
09:41:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
09:47:54 <Ilari> RIPE last 30 days allocations: 3 541 792 (0.211). RIPE has at least 2.87 blocks free (3.87 minus setaside).
10:13:42 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:19:55 <zzo38> cheater99: You are correct there are not mathematical proof.
10:21:01 <zzo38> How many patterns can this program make? http://sprunge.us/gDCA
10:24:54 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
10:40:33 <cheater99> zzo38: probably quite many, given it's nondeterministic.
10:56:53 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:58:32 -!- cheater99 has joined.
11:03:13 <zzo38> The initial state is 36 bits, but some states can be reached from other states, so you have to take that into consideration.
11:11:31 <Ilari> Looks like the evolution is time-reversible.
11:11:44 <Ilari> (Each state having unique precessor).
11:13:40 <zzo38> Eventually the screen goes black and it repeats.
11:18:30 <Ilari> (0,0,0,0) is part of cycle of length 3 52 255.
11:18:39 <Ilari> (0, 0, 0, 2) generates some huge cycle.
11:19:49 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
11:20:54 <Ilari> What's POINT(X, Y)?
11:22:45 -!- FireFly has joined.
11:22:47 <fizzie> The color value of pixel (X,Y) in some BASICs at least.
11:23:24 <Ilari> Ah, it apparently cycles the colors then.
11:23:55 -!- cheater99 has joined.
11:24:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
11:43:33 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:47:16 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
11:47:27 -!- cheater00 has joined.
12:00:48 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
12:16:43 -!- asiekierka has joined.
12:22:12 -!- Zuu_ has joined.
12:54:36 -!- Zuu_ has quit (Quit: leaving).
13:03:44 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
13:03:48 <Vorpal> Ilari, what is ROW in the statement about APNIC above?
13:08:16 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
13:15:20 <Vorpal> new textbook arrived yesterday, for the next course. Title sounds fun: "Real-Time Systems and Programming Languages" The subtitle less so: "Ada, Real-Time Java and C/Real-Time POSIX"
13:15:24 <Vorpal> who the fuck invented "real-time java"!?
13:19:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
13:26:34 -!- oerjan has joined.
13:34:35 * oerjan wishes a certain person's add applied to his grudges and not just to his projects
13:35:14 <cheater00> is that the same thing now called ADHD?
13:35:40 <oerjan> it was in any case a joke designation, not a diagnosis
13:35:45 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
13:35:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, I just parsed it as the word rather than the acronym.
13:36:12 <Vorpal> is it just me or does ADA code look similar to Pascal code at a first glance?
13:36:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
13:36:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah that would explain it
13:36:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh also:
13:36:56 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> new textbook arrived yesterday, for the next course. Title sounds fun: "Real-Time Systems and Programming Languages" The subtitle less so: "Ada, Real-Time Java and C/Real-Time POSIX"
13:36:56 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> who the fuck invented "real-time java"!?
13:37:13 <cheater00> i've had the same kind of dejavu when i read some gopher code lately
13:37:58 <Vorpal> cheater00, gopher the protocol?
13:38:24 <oerjan> i think the good parts of gopher basically merged back in haskell and gopher disappeared
13:38:47 <cheater00> i think haskell is like a successor of gopher
13:38:53 <cheater00> and ghs is the gopher something something
13:39:09 <cheater00> hugs is the something something gopher something
13:39:37 <oerjan> yes, hugs changed from gopher to haskell at some point, but i think gopher was a haskell variant to start with
13:40:15 <cheater00> oh, i was told it was a predecessor
13:40:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also this book seems to use bold for syntax highlight keywords in ADA and java code examples. But no syntax highlighting at all for C examples
13:40:24 <cheater00> basically sort of parallel to miranda
13:40:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Hugs is Haskell without the shouting at you when you get types wrong?
13:41:16 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: um hugs still requires correct types
13:41:54 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gofer_(programming_language)
13:42:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but I was under the impression that it didn't spit out incomprehensible type jargon when you got it wrong.
13:43:08 -!- Zuu has joined.
13:43:14 <oerjan> maybe not quite as much.
13:45:37 <cheater00> what was that visual functional programming language for making music?
13:47:28 <oerjan> cheater00: i find that wikipedia article about gofer self-inconsistent about the history. but i _think_ gofer started as a haskell variant, did some things closer to miranda, invented several things that were later adopted by haskell, and was basically abandoned when hugs got advanced enough to support full haskell.
13:47:38 <Vorpal> this rather cheap digital watch keeps the time well... I haven't set it for two or three years (I rarely use it, I prefer my phone for checking the time), and it is less than 4 seconds off.
13:47:57 <Vorpal> only off by an hour, so it is on DST likely
13:48:16 <cheater00> Vorpal: is it a radio clock maybe?
13:48:39 <Ilari> Vorpal: Rest of the World.
13:48:57 <oerjan> i have a vague recall that the Monad type class was first implemented in gofer
13:49:07 <Vorpal> cheater00, basic three function ugly digital watch (time, alarm, stop watch)
13:49:27 <Vorpal> oh and a button for backlight
13:49:46 <cheater00> Vorpal: my watch doesn't have radio in it, but it's still a radio clock
13:49:57 <cheater00> which just means it can be synced through radio, that's all
13:50:03 <oerjan> and what that article doesn't say is that haskell _did_ get monad comprehensions, then dropped them again, and is currently about to readd them as an option.
13:50:08 <cheater00> mine doesn't even seem to have alarm.. or deos it
13:50:50 <cheater00> oerjan: how do monad comprehensions work at all?
13:52:09 <oerjan> cheater00: basically it works as syntactical sugar something like [x] = return x, [f x | x <- y] = y >>= f
13:52:42 <oerjan> [f x | x <- y] = y >>= \x -> return (f x)
13:53:12 <oerjan> cheater00: oh it works perfectly well and gives the result for lists
13:57:43 <Vorpal> <cheater00> Vorpal: my watch doesn't have radio in it, but it's still a radio clock <-- you are confusing two different "meanings" of radio here
13:58:11 <Vorpal> cheater00, I can assure you that this clock has no radio receiver
14:05:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, what are the two meanings you're nattering about?
14:05:58 <Phantom_Hoover> If it's synced to an atomic clock, it definitely does have a radio receiver.
14:09:55 <oerjan> once upon a time, before such syncing was widespread, "radio clock" had a rather different meaning. i don't know what you kids call it these days.
14:10:25 <Phantom_Hoover> If it's a clock with a radio attached, then Vorpal is an even bigger idiot than I though.
14:11:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "my watch doesn't have radio in it" sound like he means "doesn't have a radio for listening to common broadcast"
14:11:04 <oerjan> yeah only idiots use clocks with radios attached
14:11:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, because if it is a radio clock then it certainly has a radio of some sort in it.
14:19:09 <Vorpal> oerjan, may I come onto your lawn? To me radio clock means the older meaning still
14:19:25 <Vorpal> oerjan, and "radio synced clock" or such means the modern meaning
14:19:56 <cheater00> funnily enough this clock is made in a small village that has a technical university and like 10 houses
14:19:57 <oerjan> i'm sorry, but you're not senile enough
14:20:31 <cheater00> and i worked in the exact same street it was made on, a year ago.
14:20:37 <cheater00> what are the odds of that happening?
14:20:45 <Vorpal> oerjan, aww, I don't remember what I had for lunch today even
14:21:01 <Vorpal> (disclaimer: this is because I haven't eaten yet)
14:21:50 <Vorpal> cheater00, did you buy it in that village?
14:22:02 <cheater00> no, i bought it in here because i liked the look of it
14:22:10 <cheater00> i didn't even know that company existed there
14:22:46 <cheater00> the village was so small i had to live in an adjacent city and commute (two s-bahn stations) to work there
14:23:30 <oklopol> cheater00: do you have over a thousand clocks?
14:23:53 <cheater00> it's like my first ever OWN bought alarm clock
14:24:05 <cheater00> perhaps except for a mechanic one i'd had ages ago
14:24:17 <Vorpal> cheater00, what about ones you got as presents?
14:24:32 <cheater00> i had like 4 in the course of my life.
14:24:43 <Vorpal> oklopol, I suggest FSM instead
14:24:52 <Vorpal> it is much more plausible
14:25:09 <oerjan> dammit, oklopol, i was going to say that
14:25:19 <oklopol> oerjan: erm, that's not what he meant?
14:26:19 <oklopol> is that the flying spaghetti monster?
14:26:37 <asiekierka> I suggest FSM - the universe is a finite state machine, only the number of states is far too much for us to comprehend and notice
14:26:42 <oklopol> that actually already directly is that
14:27:08 <oerjan> asiekierka: i've had that idea before
14:27:57 <oklopol> who cares what the universe is, i just wanna know what the deal is with this clock thing
14:33:35 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined.
14:36:20 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
14:37:51 <Vorpal> oklopol, you will never know*! MWHAHAHAHAHA
14:37:55 <Vorpal> * Unless you check logs.
14:50:58 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
14:57:15 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
14:57:20 -!- asiekierka has joined.
15:01:02 -!- copumpkin has joined.
15:01:02 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
15:01:02 -!- copumpkin has joined.
15:18:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
15:18:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:53:56 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> asiekierka: i've had that idea before ← isn't that just finite space with some additional caveats?
15:54:17 <asiekierka> i'd call it practically infinite but theoretically finite space machine
15:58:59 <olsner> maybe it's just an infinite state machine?
15:59:20 <Phantom_Hoover> http://gcc.gnu.org/viewcvs/trunk/gcc/reload.c?view=markup
16:13:10 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not getting why that file is so fascinating :P
16:19:03 <Gregor> "Reload is the GCC equivalent of Satan." lol
16:21:12 <Gregor> Also, http://sprunge.us/ICPT :P
16:33:00 <oklopol> [18:18:26] <lycee> hello is there any practical consequence of the fact that irrational numbers exist?
16:33:00 <oklopol> [18:18:27] <lycee> or let me rephrase: hello is there any practical consequence of the "fact" that irrational numbers "exist"?
16:33:07 <oklopol> why did i ever leave #math
16:42:49 <oklopol> he's this annoying jackass
16:43:02 <oklopol> everyone hates him because he's a dick to everyone
16:43:26 <oklopol> cheater00: could you please answer my question?
16:43:58 <cheater00> oklopol: i didn't see your question because you didn't highlight me btw
16:44:14 <cheater00> oklopol: well, when i stopped going to #math he would have those fits all the time
16:44:33 <cheater00> sort of like but not as bad as ... another person.
16:45:04 <oklopol> i have learned a lot of life skills from TRWBW
16:45:30 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
16:46:19 <oklopol> my opinions on math are to a large extent the same as his, strictly speaking i dunno if he's really influenced them
16:46:26 <oklopol> also he really makes you think about what you say
16:46:40 <oklopol> because otherwise he'll ignore you forever
16:46:46 <cheater00> the only way in which that was true for me was "i wish i hadn't come to #math to talk about this"
16:46:47 <oklopol> and he's a really nice guy so who'd want that
16:47:08 <cheater00> are we talking about the same TRWBW?
16:47:21 <oklopol> the way i took his punishment was "indeed, i should've been less of a retard"
16:47:23 <cheater00> ok i guess there aren't two of him
16:47:49 <cheater00> two of him existing would probably just collapse the universe forever
16:48:23 <cheater00> oklopol: well i understand what you mean with the "life skills" bit
16:49:15 <cheater00> everyone's got experience with a pompous asshole (sorry about the wording), except you only need a few in your life to learn how to be nice to people, and i've had my fair share before i'd become.. exposed to him
16:49:42 <cheater00> so i guess i could've liked him the way you do, had i made contact with him 10 years earlier!
16:50:17 <oklopol> right, i like him because he told me i was a fucking retard once when i totally was and didn't realize it
16:50:27 <cheater00> funny how our views diverge very much yet seem to be part of one bigger mechanism if you think about it
16:50:29 <oklopol> i'm sure everyone would do the same
16:50:55 <cheater00> i dunno, the only thing i've experienced from his side was aggresive negativity
16:51:39 <oklopol> well he is pretty aggressive and negative, i don't actually like talking to him :D
16:51:57 <cheater00> hence i stopped hanging out in #math
16:52:21 <cheater00> and like, when i first started going there the place was overrun by like first-year CS freshmen
16:52:22 <oklopol> i just hang out in math because it's fun to watch people being clueless
16:52:50 <cheater00> so you'd go there and ask how to prove something about real numbers and they'd say write a program that loops over numbers. or something dumb like that.
16:53:13 <oklopol> i can rarely help with any interesting questions, just the "if x = 2, does that also mean all the 2's of the world are suddenly x?"
16:53:18 <cheater00> or you'd ask how to find the limit to a series and they'd give you a truncated decimal expansion.
16:53:55 <cheater00> but tbh i enjoyed efnet #math very much more than the place here
16:54:01 <oklopol> and i don't mean i help with those either, i mostly watch others try and fail
16:54:21 <cheater00> learned loads about how to approach maths from people like zeno, Polytope, landen, etc
16:55:05 <oklopol> i have that impression, dunno where it comes from
16:55:07 <cheater00> landen is like this old guy on tenure in mit
16:55:20 <cheater00> he's so old he remembers when time begun
16:55:32 <cheater00> but i don't think he's as old as glk lol
16:55:47 <cheater00> i'm not sure if the nick is right, i think so
16:56:23 <cheater00> http://grahamkendall.net/Main_Files/All%20URL.txt
16:56:54 <cheater00> and like every time someone would mention anything about orbits or calculators he'd immediately spring up and spam his website url
16:57:14 <cheater00> and then engage into an in-depth conversation about the wonderful features of the TI-83
16:59:13 <oklopol> oh? i didn't notice he had a body
16:59:35 <oklopol> it looks kinda interesting
17:01:28 <cheater00> maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan, oklopol is SUCH a troll ;;;-//////////////////////////
17:02:30 <Gregor> oklopol: Because you only have one eye.
17:03:47 <cheater00> oklopol: btw, do you know anything about such a maths construct? it was first described by sierpinski, and i'm not sure if there's even an english word for it
17:05:34 <cheater00> you start with a finite set of complex numbers K_1 = {z_1, ..., z_n} and another finite set of natural numbers {k_1, ..., k_m}. If x \in K_i then x^k_m in K_{i+1}
17:05:46 <cheater00> let me bring up the wikipedia article
17:06:18 <cheater00> http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierwiastnik
17:06:24 <cheater00> the polish word for this is Pierwiastnik
17:06:35 <cheater00> which comes from the word Pierwiastek which means square root or surd.
17:06:54 <cheater00> it was supposedly important for Abel and Wenzel
17:07:53 <oklopol> i can't really read polish all that well, what do you do with k_j other than k_m?
17:08:48 <cheater00> basically, z is a "pierwiastnik" of the numbers {z_i}_i if you can take the numbers z_i, and you can reach z using the four basic operations and also exponents (x^k_i for some i) and surds,
17:09:10 <cheater00> so for example THIS: http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/4/5/7451b3d4b1ad635a8e5ede3de8681773.png
17:09:26 <cheater00> is *a* "pierwiastnik" of the numbers x, y, \pi
17:10:00 <oklopol> what do you need the k_i for then, if they are nats, you can just multiply x with itself
17:10:59 <cheater00> sorry i explained it the wrong way around
17:12:05 <cheater00> you start out with say, K_0 = Q, and K_i = K_{i-1} (z_i) (this is the field extension by z_i)
17:12:34 <oklopol> it is? didn't you say it has the roots of z_i?
17:12:47 <cheater00> now i'm translating directly from the wikipedia page
17:13:01 <cheater00> now this is important because you have i-1 as the index on the right
17:13:14 <cheater00> so you can see that you're taking nth roots
17:14:29 <cheater00> so, we have (z_i)^{k_i} \in K_{i-1} for i=1..n and z \in K_n
17:14:55 <cheater00> that's what the wikipedia page says
17:15:02 <oklopol> K_0 = Q contains (z_1)^{k_1} for instance?
17:15:36 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:15:39 <cheater00> and then, once all this is set up so it works( we have to choose the z_i and k_i correctly), then we can say that z is the "pierwiastnik" of the numbers {z_i} of the grade k = max(k_i)
17:15:51 <cheater00> oklopol: yes, because you choose z_i this way
17:16:00 <cheater00> like not ALL z's can be constructed like this
17:16:19 <oklopol> so the idea is you're taking roots of things that already exist in the earliers
17:16:31 <oklopol> and adding them to get a field extension
17:17:11 <oklopol> then i think i have heard of this
17:18:00 <oklopol> oh i don't know :P but the constructable numbers, you get roughly the numbers you can construct by using only k_j = 2, this way, starting from Q^2
17:18:08 <cheater00> i think the right word for this could be "radical"
17:18:19 <oklopol> wait, how's Q^2 even a field
17:18:28 <cheater00> since "pierwiastnik" is an alteration of the word "pierwiastek" which means radix.
17:18:46 <oklopol> you can construct Q's pierwiastnik extensions with k_i = 2 this way, in some sense.
17:19:22 <cheater00> because for example you can in this "radical" thing start out with any set of numbers, not only Q
17:19:34 <cheater00> for example at the top you have an example where you start with x, y, \pi
17:19:52 <oklopol> i said, the constructable numbers are gotten from Q by adding pierwiastnik extensions using k_i = 2 for all i
17:20:09 <oklopol> but i don't think you can construct all such numbers, and i don't know which ones you can
17:20:28 <oklopol> and this could be wrong, i just vaguely recall an example from our algebra lecture notes
17:20:42 <cheater00> now it is said that all solutions of polynomials up to the 4th degree can be expressed as a pierwiastnik over the field over which the polynomial is given
17:20:55 <cheater00> starting the 5th degree sometimes you can sometimes you can't
17:21:11 <oklopol> oh that 4th degree thing is true for all fields?
17:21:25 <oklopol> i should learn some galois theory
17:21:58 <cheater00> Twierdzenie Abela-Ruffiniego – głosi, że pierwiastki równania algebraicznego stopnia wyższego niż 4 nie dają się wyrazić w ogólnej postaci za pomocą czterech działań algebraicznych i pierwiastkowania poprzez współczynniki równania w skończonej liczbie kroków (czyli poprzez tak zwane pierwiastniki).
17:22:20 <cheater00> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abel%E2%80%93Ruffini_theorem
17:22:29 <oklopol> abel and ruffini were the two horribly complicated solutions to the polynomial prob?
17:22:43 <oklopol> before galois actually gave a sensible answer
17:22:50 <cheater00> look at the english version of this page
17:22:57 <cheater00> In algebra, the Abel–Ruffini theorem (also known as Abel's impossibility theorem) states that there is no general algebraic solution—that is, solution in radicals— to polynomial equations of degree five or higher.[1]
17:23:15 <cheater00> the way they use it here, they use "radical" in the same way they use "pierwiastnik" in the polish version
17:23:24 <cheater00> of course "radical" in wikipedia just transfers you to nth root
17:23:41 <cheater00> that goes in line with what i said earlier
17:23:42 <cheater00> <cheater00> i think the right word for this could be "radical"
17:25:00 <cheater00> ok now we need to hijack the wikipedo page for "radical"
17:26:04 <oklopol> oh that's what radicals are
17:26:11 <oklopol> i'll probably forget the term soon again
17:28:48 <oklopol> in solving that problem, for some reason it helps to take fields F and their extensions G, and consider the group of isomorphisms of G that keep F invariant. then you can somehow reduce everything to group theory questions.
17:28:54 <oklopol> that's pretty much all i remember
17:39:19 -!- lament has joined.
17:55:32 <Gregor> Is that some crazy Happo-niece cat sound?
18:05:04 <pikhq_> Nah, just a Japanese cat.
18:16:12 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
18:23:59 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:39:50 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined.
18:40:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:42:41 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
18:49:47 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:15:01 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:21:32 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:21:48 -!- cheater- has joined.
19:29:24 <pikhq_> Þou art, indeed, a kitty!
19:30:02 <Gregor> I admit it was actually MILDLY funny.
19:30:37 <oklopol> after reading the hovertext, it felt like he was trying to make a point tho, which made it less funny
19:32:35 <oerjan> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Anvilicious
19:32:44 <oklopol> i was going to write something else and screwed up but i guess it worked out fine anyway
19:32:58 * oerjan cackles evilly, then is hit by falling anvil
19:35:51 -!- impomatic has joined.
19:39:06 <oklopol> impomatic: i don't want to be a blog.
19:40:16 <oerjan> oklopol: but but it's such a nice word containing only an o vowel
19:40:28 <oerjan> oklowiki would just be _wrong_
19:40:57 <Gregor> "frog" is also a nice word containing only an 'o' vowel.
19:41:05 <Gregor> And I have no problem believing that oklopol is a frog.
19:41:09 <oerjan> indeed. start jumping, oklofrog!
19:41:27 <oklopol> Gregor: i have never even been to that country
19:41:44 <Gregor> Parles vous ribbit ribbit?
19:41:52 <pikhq_> "Yay", obnoxiously long encodes.
19:42:04 <pikhq_> Encoding an entire season of Trek is about two days of encoding. Bleck.
19:42:14 <oklopol> jeau parles non la lingua ribulosa
19:43:24 <Gregor> oklopol: What's this about Jews talking like frogs? RACIST
19:43:37 <impomatic> Is clog something provided by freenode? If so, how do I get clog to log a channel?
19:43:48 <Gregor> impomatic: Naw, somebody at tunes.org runs it
19:43:58 <Gregor> impomatic: Making a better logging bot is easy though :P
19:45:12 <impomatic> The bot that logs #corewars seems to have been down for a while.
19:45:41 <oklopol> oerjan was mean to him so he left forever
19:46:09 <zzo38> My own IRC server does logs on the server. If you want, I can give you codes to make your own logs on your server.
19:46:22 <oerjan> i guess he transferred me from the white people box to the black people box
19:47:03 <oklopol> well you are quite the nigga
19:47:06 * oerjan is now being hypocritical again, and swats himself -----###
19:48:00 <zzo38> In what section number does TeX prevent disabling all escape and active characters?
19:49:54 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:52:20 <impomatic> zzo38: thanks. I wait to see if the current logger is fixed first.
19:52:53 <impomatic> I have a Forth interpreter in about 600 bytes. I was just wondering if I beat Elliott to it :-)
19:54:27 <zzo38> impomatic: I would like to see what you have. I think elliott was trying to write it in 510 bytes, 600 bytes is too long to fit in the MBR code.
19:55:42 <impomatic> zzo38: I'll let you have a copy when it's debugged / optimized. It's minimal. I only implemented the words necessary to get the outer interpreter working.
20:16:06 <cheater-> oklopol: oerjan wasn't mean to elliott.
20:17:01 <oklopol> well strictly speaking, i did say that
20:17:26 <cheater-> no, *strictly* speaking, you typed that :D
20:17:46 <oerjan> you mean "*strictly* typing"
20:18:38 <oerjan> ALL TYPOS ARE BANNABLE OFFENSES
20:18:47 <cheater-> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooo
20:18:58 <oerjan> fortunately it's not strictly _enforced_
20:19:13 <cheater-> anyone ever speak with that guy?
20:19:31 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:19:32 <cheater-> he's quite infamous for being a big anorak and being completely unable to type
20:20:12 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:26:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:30:00 <zzo38> Next time make your logo with METAFONT.
20:30:30 <zzo38> You can combine METAFONT with ImageMagick if you want colors and special effect as well.
20:33:07 -!- iconmaster has joined.
20:39:07 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
20:39:07 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
20:39:07 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
20:40:58 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:44:07 * oerjan shuffles to the next corner
20:46:37 <oerjan> hm an oppressive capitalist
20:46:41 -!- TLUL has joined.
20:47:00 * oerjan uses a hammer and sickle to make a new corner
20:48:22 * oerjan just manages to run out before the falling roof crushes Phantom_Hoover
20:50:08 <iconmaster> But a floor can be a ceiling/roof if you are under it.
20:50:21 * oerjan declares a socialist republic and nationalizes the corners
20:50:58 <oerjan> TYPICAL CAPITALIST PROPAGANDA
20:51:20 * oerjan declares free corners (without walls) for everyone
20:52:57 * oerjan outlaws property, thereby clearly making theft impossible
20:54:04 <oerjan> comrade Phantom_Hoover, we now have perfect communism!
20:54:19 <oerjan> no logic was the obvious last step
20:54:42 * Phantom_Hoover shoots all the corners and airbrushes them out of the photos.
20:55:46 <iconmaster> What you really should be worried about is that floor.
20:57:30 <iconmaster> But it is also a CEILING. It is two-faced! Wait, we outlawed logic...
20:58:44 * iconmaster should keep his nose out of this whole 'life' thing.
20:59:09 <iconmaster> How many IT's do you want to be mined?
20:59:59 * iconmaster offers Phantom_Hoover his salt shaker.
21:00:12 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:00:13 <oerjan> iconmaster: do not fear. replace logic by glorious dialectic materialism!
21:00:45 <iconmaster> I KNOW I have some more salt *somewhere*...
21:00:46 <oerjan> the floor is clearly material, and has two faces, thus dialectic
21:01:27 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.5.17/20110121150729]).
21:01:44 -!- cheater99 has joined.
21:01:51 <oerjan> giving a glorious synthetic plastic
21:01:54 * iconmaster is wondering how communism and materialism can go together. Oh wait, no logic.
21:03:32 <Phantom_Hoover> iconmaster, in seriousness, socialism is materialist in the non-spiritualist sense.
21:03:38 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:04:21 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: we have now got salt from filthy americans http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=SALT
21:05:17 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: your sentences are employing CAPITALISM, and therefore fungot is ignoring you
21:05:30 <oerjan> well that and not being here, mind you
21:07:58 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: rubbish, if you look in the backlog you will see that fungot was disappeared before the glorious revolution started
21:08:50 * oerjan gives iconmaster some candy floss from cuban sugar
21:10:03 <oerjan> cheater99: just a little to hide this tumor on my backhead
21:10:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:10:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:10:58 <Phantom_Hoover> CRAPPY CAPITALIST WIFI IS ATTEMPTING TO SABOTAGE GLORIOUS SOCIALIST REVOLUTION
21:12:16 -!- oerjan has set topic: The Glorious People's Socialist Republic of Esoterica | Try out yoob @ http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:13:51 -!- oerjan has set topic: The Glorious People's Socialist Democratic Egalitarian Progressive Republic of Esoterica | Try out yoob @ http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:14:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: The Glorious People's Socialist Democratic Egalitarian Progressive Republic of Esoterica | DECADENT CAPITALIST NEOPAGANS NEED NOT APPLY | Try out yoob @ http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:14:21 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juche
21:14:56 <cheater99> i am all too happy because this monad stuff is finally making sense
21:16:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: The Glorious People's Socialist Democratic Egalitarian Progressive Republic of Esoterica | DECADENT CAPITALIST NEOPAGANS NEED NOT APPLY | Try out GLORIOUS SOVIET yoob @ http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | SOCIALIST HISTORY logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:16:23 * cheater99 knows it's because he's using xchat.
21:16:31 <oerjan> it worked perfectly, you are just using decadent capitalist nick alignment
21:16:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: The Glorious People's Socialist Democratic Egalitarian Progressive Republic of Esoterica | DECADENT CAPITALIST NEOPAGANS NEED NOT APPLY | Try out GLORIOUS SOVIET yoob @ http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | SOCIALIST HISTORY: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:18:35 -!- cheater99 has set topic: The Glorious People's Socialist Democratic Egalitarian Progressive Republic of Esoterica | DECADENT CAPITALIST NEOPAGANS NEED NOT APPLY | Try out GLORIOUS SOVIET yoob @ http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | SOCIALIST HISTORY: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | NEW SOCIALIST TRADITIONS APPROVED BY THE PARTY: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page.
21:18:53 <cheater99> there was a lot of "new traditions" in the 80s in the eastern block
21:19:07 <cheater99> which is hilarious because .. traditions are by definition something old.
21:19:28 <oerjan> was it hilarious even in the original russian?
21:19:59 <cheater99> nova lyudova traditya or something
21:20:26 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
21:20:30 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:22:54 -!- cheater99 has set topic: The Glorious People's Socialist Democratic Egalitarian Progressive Republic of Esoterica | DECADENT CAPITALIST NEOPAGANS NEED NOT APPLY | Try out GLORIOUS SOVIET yoob @ http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | SOCIALIST HISTORY: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | NEW SOCIALIST TRADITIONS APPROVED BY THE PARTY: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page | OPTBOT DENOUNCED AS CAPIT.
21:23:08 -!- cheater99 has set topic: The Glorious People's Socialist Democratic Egalitarian Progressive Republic of Esoterica | DECADENT CAPITALIST NEOPAGANS NEED NOT APPLY | Try out GLORIOUS SOVIET yoob @ http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | SOCIALIST HISTORY: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | NEW SOCIALIST TRADITIONS APPROVED BY THE PARTY: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page.
21:23:20 <cheater99> optbot denounced as capitalist wolf.
21:23:34 <pikhq_> エソテリッカ之英人民民主主義共和平和進歩国！
21:24:10 <oerjan> cheater99: i wish to point out that optbot is _not_ banned.
21:24:32 <oerjan> in case anyone was confused
21:24:40 <cheater99> oh ok sorry didn't mean to confuse anyone
21:24:50 -!- iconmaster has quit (Quit: THE GLORIOUS SOCIALIAST RPOS V2.1 IS HERE!).
21:25:07 <Phantom_Hoover> LISTEN NOT TO THE LIES OF THE CAPITALIST SPY ICONMASTER
21:25:32 <oerjan> he doesn't even spall socialist correctly!
21:25:34 <pikhq_> (esoteri'ka no ei sìnnminnminnsiȳûsiȳûkì kiȳôwa hêwa sinnhǫ koku!)
21:26:14 <Phantom_Hoover> NOW BACK TO THE TOPIC OF COMRADE OERJAN'S CAPITALIST SYNCHRONICITY
21:26:30 <cheater99> OERJAN DENOUNCED AS CAPITALIST WOLF
21:26:39 <pikhq_> ("The Glorious People's Socialist Democratic Egalitarian Progressive Republic of Esoterica")
21:26:46 <cheater99> <Phantom_Hoover> COMRADE PIKHQ WHAT EVILS HAVE BEFALLEN YOU < lol, i read that as "what elvis has befallen you" >_<
21:26:52 <oerjan> synchronicity is dialectic, not capitalist
21:27:20 <cheater99> oerjan: are your neurodynes clear?
21:27:21 <oerjan> also why am _i_ the capitalist, you are the ones who insist on using capitals
21:27:29 <cheater99> oerjan: i think you should speak to AHS-7.
21:27:56 <oerjan> cheater99: i do not recognize the decadent capitalist references you mention
21:28:04 <cheater99> i guess oerjan is the.. whatdoyoucallit
21:28:20 <cheater99> what's the opposite of capital letter?
21:28:35 <olsner> CEASE THIS DECADENT USAGE OF NEW INVENTED LOWER CASE CHARACTERS
21:28:38 <cheater99> there was a special word for that that's never used
21:28:42 <olsner> THEY ARE NOT OF THE TRADITION
21:31:43 <pikhq_> LOWER-CASE CHARACTERS ARE A REMNANT OF FEUDALIST EUROPE
21:32:03 <pikhq_> CAPITALS ARE THE CREATION OF A GRAND REPUBLIC
21:32:19 <pikhq_> CAPITALS: FOR SOCIALISM!
21:32:49 <pikhq_> THANK YOU, COMRADE PHANTOM_HOOVER.
21:33:49 <oerjan> (NOTE ABSENCE OF CAPITALIST "U")
21:34:08 <pikhq_> WELCOME, COMRADE ØRJAN, TO THE GLORIOVS PEOPLE'S SOCIALIST DEMOCRATIC EGALITARIAN PROGRESSIVE REPVBLIC OF ESOTERICA.
21:36:01 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:37:09 <pikhq_> COMRADE, THOSE GLYPHS ORIGINATE FROM A CZAR, TRULY THE LEAST SOCIALIST SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT.
21:37:50 <pikhq_> AND NOT FROM THE ROMAN REPVBLIC, A CLEAR PREDECESSOR TO OVR MOST GLORIOUS PEOPLE'S SOCIALIST DEMOCRATIC EGALITARIAN PROGRESSIVE REPVBLIC.
21:40:37 -!- glogbot has joined.
21:41:57 <pikhq_> LOOKS TO BE GREGOR'S GLORIOVS LOG BOT FOR THE REPVBLIC
21:42:11 <Gregor> I'm making one that actually keeps rawlogs around :P
21:42:15 -!- augur has joined.
21:42:21 <pikhq_> COMRADE GREGOR IS INDEED DOING A GREAT WORK
21:42:38 <Gregor> However, for the moment all you get is
21:42:39 <glogbot> glogbot is currently under development, logs will be available in one metric soon.
21:42:50 <Phantom_Hoover> COMRADE GREGOR, RENAME GLOGBOT TO COMRADE GLOGBOT IN HONOVR OF GLORIOVS SOCIALIST CHANNEL
21:43:40 <zzo38> I am not quite as capitalist as you. I type only some capitalist letters, and mostly typing lowercaseist letter, and also punctuation. But I do not type communist and socialist letters because I am not Soviet Russian.
21:43:55 <Gregor> I hope I've modified multibot to not get D/C'd so much.
21:44:01 -!- EgoBot has joined.
21:44:03 -!- HackEgo has joined.
21:45:06 <oerjan> DECADENT CAPITALIST FREENODE MAY NOT SVPPORT SPACES IN NICKS
21:45:32 <zzo38> Well, sometimes I use capitalist "U"! Because I am typing English, not Socialist.
21:46:31 <oerjan> zzo38: IT'S OK YOV CAN BE DECADENT CAPITALIST CANADIAN AMBASSADOR TO ESOTERICA
21:47:18 -!- glogbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:47:27 <Gregor> (That was an intentional kill btw :P )
21:47:41 <oerjan> ARGH GLORIOVS LOG BOT HAS BEEN ASSASSINATED
21:49:04 -!- glogbot has joined.
21:49:11 <zzo38> Now I fixed TeX chess program making the default size of tiles 16pt, allowing number of ranks/files changed, allow adding a caption above or below the board, and many more...
21:49:32 <Gregor> !glogbot_join #esoteric-minecraft
21:49:33 <glogbot> Joined #esoteric-minecraft
21:50:00 <Phantom_Hoover> COMRADE GLOGBOT FELL OVT OF FAVOVR WITH GLORIOVS SOCIALIST CHANNEL
21:50:46 -!- glogbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:50:49 * Gregor continues tinkering ...
21:51:28 <Phantom_Hoover> COMRADE GREGOR IF COMRADE_GLOGBOT DOES NOT JOIN GLORIOVS SOCIALIST CHANNEL THEN STEPS WILL BE TAKEN
21:52:08 <zzo38> Gregor: Maybe it would make sense to make those commands as private messages? Such as "PRIVMSG glogbot :JOIN #esoteric-minecraft" and then another command to set the notice list. And it send NOTICE to all channel and user when there is notification change? At least to me is logical this way. Maybe not you.
21:52:10 <Gregor> More likely though, you will join many other comrades in "too damned annoying to exist land"
21:52:46 <Gregor> zzo38: It just always responds on the channel you request on *shrugs*
21:53:09 <Gregor> zzo38: I could send the same command as a PM and it would only PM me back.
21:55:10 <Gregor> Isn't there a Unix command to run something in the background and echo its pid?
21:55:43 <zzo38> Gregor: I know the shell command you can put & at the end, but I do not know if there is an actual command for that. Maybe there is.
21:56:08 <Gregor> zzo38: I would prefer not to have it in the shell's jobs.
21:56:26 <zzo38> I mean like, it respond to the sender whether or not the command is success. And only if it is successful, send NOTICE to everyone in its internal NOTICE list. Sending SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE subscribe the user privately, and with a channel name as parameter, to add/remove that channel from its internal NOTICE list. Mostly only the head channel would then be added because these notices are not important to other channels.
21:56:49 <zzo38> Gregor: I don't know, sorry.
21:57:19 -!- glogbot has joined.
21:57:53 -!- glogbot has left (?).
21:58:48 <zzo38> For things such as EgoBot and HackEgo it makes sense the way it currently works, but glogbot is making logs so it would make sense the other way instead.
21:58:51 -!- glogbot has joined.
21:59:20 <Gregor> OK, glogbot should be here semipermanently now.
22:00:02 <zzo38> Also mode should be set -i so that you can check the status.
22:02:30 <zzo38> It means turn off invisible mode.
22:02:48 <zzo38> I do not know exactly what it does though.
22:03:26 <zzo38> (The help just says "Designates this client 'invisible'" but it does not prevent you from accessing that user?)
22:04:47 <zzo38> Wikipedia says "cannot be seen without a common channel or knowing the exact name".
22:05:47 <zzo38> However it is probably useful to know the logging is there even without a common channel.
22:07:07 -!- glogbot has left (?).
22:07:15 <Gregor> OK, I was totes lying about stability :P
22:10:35 <zzo38> One of the problems with irc:// URI scheme is in fact explained on Wikipedia. My scheme does not have any of those problems.
22:12:21 <zzo38> Does IPv4 have any "invalid addresses" blocks?
22:12:43 <zzo38> (that are designated as such)
22:15:00 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
22:18:51 <fizzie> I don't think anything's been reserved as "invalid" exactly, but there are for example three blocks that have been reserved for documentation and examples.
22:24:35 -!- glogbot has joined.
00:05:41 <Gregor> impomatic: And now you're gone :P
00:06:05 <Gregor> If anybody wants a logbot, glogbot is pretty stable now.
00:11:08 <esowiki> Logs: http://gregorr.dyndns.org:8080/logs/_esoteric/?C=N;O=D
00:11:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: The Glorious People's Socialist Democratic Egalitarian Progressive Republic of Esoterica | DECADENT CAPITALIST NEOPAGANS NEED NOT APPLY | Try out GLORIOUS SOVIET yoob @ http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | SOCIALIST HISTORY: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | JOURNAL OF COMRADE GLOGBOT: http://gregorr.dyndns.org:8080/logs/_esoteric/?C=N;O=D | NEW SOCIALIST TRADITIONS APPR.
00:11:21 <fizzie> glögbot, on the other hand, just keeps on drinking.
00:11:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: The Glorious People's Socialist Democratic Egalitarian Progressive Republic of Esoterica | DECADENT CAPITALIST NEOPAGANS NEED NOT APPLY | Try out GLORIOUS SOVIET yoob @ http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | SOCIALIST HISTORY: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | JOURNAL OF COMRADE GLOGBOT: http://gregorr.dyndns.org:8080/logs/_esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
00:11:33 <olsner> Gregor: is that yours? should be called flogbot
00:11:59 <Gregor> My name does not start with an 'f' :P
00:12:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:13:33 <pikhq_> What's the maximum nick length on Freenode?
00:13:57 <Gregor> It shall remain glogbot :P
00:14:06 <pikhq_> Not gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggglogbot?
00:14:50 <fizzie> entgegengegangen, my favourite german word.
00:15:50 <fizzie> It's a multiple of 4 anyway, because when I changed fungot to antiantianti... for testing, it got cut off between the 'anti's.
00:16:26 <pikhq_> "Most bacon consumed in the United Kingdom is back bacon." The UK is full of HEATHENS and SINNERS AGAINST BACON
00:17:25 -!- fungot has joined.
00:18:29 <zzo38> What does "entgegengegangen" means?
00:18:55 <fizzie> Misread that as "black bacon", thought it was some sort of term for completely burned bacon, was all "huh, that's a weird preference".
00:19:04 <olsner> zzo38: it's even googleable
00:19:24 <olsner> "gone to meet", apparently
00:19:38 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:19:57 <fizzie> Yes; past tense of entgegen/gehen, one of their silly two-part verbs.
00:21:26 <fizzie> I think the context it was introduced to me was a person gone to meet someone else at the train station. "gehen" is "to go", while "entgegen" is generally "against".
00:23:40 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:25:18 <fizzie> Finnish idiom "mennä <jotakuta> vastaan" (lit "to go against <somebody>") for sort-of going to "receive"/meet someone (who's e.g. coming to a visit) might well be from that.
00:26:08 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:48:54 -!- cheater99 has joined.
00:52:41 <Gregor> I wrote my log converter in C for some lunatic reason. Easily the worst C program I've written in my entire life.
00:52:50 <zzo38> I need no log bot I have server logs. Server logs works better.
00:52:56 <zzo38> Gregor: Then write a better C program.
00:53:18 <Gregor> zzo38: ... you have server logs ... of FreeNode?
00:53:27 <zzo38> No, only of my own server.
00:53:30 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
00:53:41 <Gregor> Well then there's that :P
00:53:44 <zzo38> I do not need server logs of FreeNode, I can use the clog for this channel.
00:53:59 <zzo38> And glogbot can also be used for this channel, as well as the other logs.
00:54:24 <zzo38> The other channels that are logged have their own logs.
00:55:41 <pikhq> Gregor: Don't you know that string processing is the single worst thing to do in C?
00:55:43 <zzo38> But I think server logs works better in general.
00:56:16 <zzo38> pikhq: I can do string processing in C. C works for many things that are not specific to only one computer.
00:56:33 <pikhq> zzo38: Yes, but it's so insanely tedious to do string processing in C.
00:56:46 <pikhq> It's not far above Brainfuck on that front.
00:57:07 <pikhq> Pretty much the only advantage you get there is *more than one pointer*.
00:57:50 <Gregor> Bleh, I don't think you can do the equivalent of tail -f with C stdio only.
00:58:48 <zzo38> pikhq: No, I can do string processing fine in C. You just have to know what it is that you need, and then just make it.
00:58:53 <Deewiant> while (1) { fopen fseek fread fclose }
00:59:19 <pikhq> zzo38: It is *possible*, yes.
00:59:31 <pikhq> zzo38: It's just about on par with doing it in Brainfuck.
01:00:22 <Gregor> Deewiant: Oh yeah, I guess I could work it out with fopen/fseek/fclose ... didn't work with just opening it once throughout.
01:00:48 <zzo38> pikhq: No, in C you can use macros and more than one pointer, and memory allocation, and stuff like that.
01:01:43 <pikhq> zzo38: Still insanely tedious compared to doing it in, oh, *nearly any other high-level language*.
01:04:54 <zzo38> pikhq: Probably, but I am capable to do some insane things, and it is not too difficult if you know what you are trying to make, therefore it is OK. But it is OK to use other program language, too.
01:05:57 <oerjan> pikhq, now arguing sanity in #esoteric. has he lost his marbles?
01:06:26 <olsner> arguing for sanity is a clear sign of not having any
01:06:45 <zzo38> olsner: No, it is possible to have both sanity and insanity.
01:10:26 <zzo38> Is there program to convert PCL printing file to other format in case your printer does not use PCL?
01:14:34 -!- variable has joined.
01:37:33 -!- esowiki has joined.
01:37:45 -!- glogbot has joined.
01:37:45 -!- HackEgo has joined.
01:43:27 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:43:39 -!- pikhq has joined.
01:44:01 * Gregor hopes the fool things stay connected.
01:45:23 -!- sebbu has joined.
01:45:23 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
01:45:24 -!- sebbu has joined.
01:48:02 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:10:03 -!- zzo38 has joined.
02:28:41 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Connection timed out).
02:30:07 -!- variable has joined.
02:30:59 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
02:34:00 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
02:48:08 <Gregor> Man, checking user modes is a friggin' pain.
02:54:51 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
02:55:12 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
02:55:38 -!- copumpkin has joined.
02:56:04 -!- variable has joined.
02:58:38 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
02:58:45 -!- pikhq has joined.
03:06:15 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: Later).
03:12:19 -!- jcp has joined.
03:15:06 <Gregor> If you wanted to make a public logger bot, how would you make it verify that a request to join a channel is legit?
03:15:23 <Gregor> Note that I can't determine who the ops on a channel are without joining it ...
03:24:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
03:24:31 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
03:32:24 <variable> Gregor, only if they are on the same channel IIRC (or they don't have the secret options set)
03:32:39 <variable> you *could* query chanserv access - but that wouldn't be complete
03:32:54 -!- esowiki has joined.
03:33:06 -!- glogbot has joined.
03:33:51 <Gregor> I seem to be whoisable, is secret even default?
03:33:59 <Gregor> If it's not default then who cares, they'll just have to not be so sneaky to use it :P
03:34:30 <Gregor> Oh dear, loghandler is running hot ... how odd.
03:34:51 <myndzi> (+p hides from whois, shows on list)
03:35:01 <myndzi> wait a second, +s IS default, this is freenode
03:35:03 <myndzi> why would they do that anyway
03:35:26 <Gregor> If +s is default, then why am I not +s?
03:35:46 <myndzi> which hides you from /who and /names
03:35:56 <myndzi> +i hides a user from channel listings
03:36:00 <myndzi> +s hides a channel from user listings
03:36:06 <Gregor> Is +s only default for chanserv-controlled channels?
03:36:07 <myndzi> well, "information" not "listings"
03:36:14 <myndzi> i joined a random string of letters
03:36:30 <myndzi> +ns, what a weird default
03:36:46 <myndzi> but i guess there could be reasons for it
03:36:59 <myndzi> i once found a bunch of oper channels by getting on a server that crashed right after it came up
03:37:08 <myndzi> before the server resynched
03:37:28 <myndzi> because they autoreconnceted to the server and joined the channels, but the channels weren't +s because they weren't with chanserv yet!
03:37:51 <Gregor> Not sure how to make requests legit in this case >_>
03:38:16 <myndzi> if it's not legit, ignore the user
03:39:03 <myndzi> you can at least verify that the channel exists before joining it
03:39:06 <Gregor> Since I require them to be an op anyway, I could just say they have to temporarily set it to -s ... or is that a huge pain due to ChanServ rumblings.
03:39:07 <myndzi> and perhaps has > X users
03:39:18 <myndzi> also it seems like on freenode nobody bothers to op up
03:39:25 <myndzi> so requiring ops would be a bit of a pain
03:39:32 <Gregor> Well this is just a one-time thing to prevent fraud.
03:39:38 <myndzi> one possibility would be to join and announce something the first time you join the chanenl
03:39:43 <Gregor> If you want logging, you op yourself then request the bot, then you never have to again.
03:39:48 <myndzi> such as "ops may ban me from this channel with this command"
03:40:10 <Gregor> Ops can request that glogbot leave a channel at any time, but there shouldn't need to be ops around to prevent it from improperly logging a channel.
03:40:19 <Gregor> variable: ... fascinating.
03:40:44 <myndzi> i was thinking of "don't log at first" or something
03:40:51 <myndzi> however you look at it it's a bit of an annoyance
03:40:54 <variable> Gregor, my point is that if you are on any other channels - I can't see them
03:41:08 <Gregor> variable: Ah, yeah, >_>
03:41:11 <Gregor> I'm on, like, dozens :P
03:41:15 <myndzi> does freenode even use chanserv? i messaged chanserv 'help' but no response
03:41:24 <myndzi> it went into another channel window wut
03:42:36 <myndzi> too bad you can't use WHY without access
03:42:56 <myndzi> ah well, i guess it comes down to you basically just have to either make them jump through hoops or risk being irritating
03:43:22 <Gregor> wtf, I set ##glogbot23 (a temp testing channel) to -s and it still can't see it in /whois ...
03:43:32 <variable> Gregor, tasting a channel should be fine: you get asked to join, join channel, check if person is ops)
03:43:33 <variable> if courses there is a race condition there
03:44:10 <myndzi> +i doesn't hide your channels
03:44:14 <Gregor> Can somebody else /whois me?
03:44:17 <myndzi> it hides you from user searches
03:44:20 <myndzi> Gregor: i only see #esoteric
03:44:26 <myndzi> apparently freenode is Privacy Happy
03:45:04 <Gregor> Damn it, this is so obnoxious.
03:45:34 <myndzi> runescript joins to check the names list then parts
03:45:42 <myndzi> and i know they'd have figured out a better way if it was feasible
03:45:46 <variable> (that is called 'tasting' myndzi )
03:45:47 <myndzi> so yeah, you're pretty much stuck doing that
03:46:05 <Gregor> That's so lame ... should I make the bot apologize if it's requested improperly?
03:46:28 <variable> Gregor, no. j/p spam usually don't matter
03:46:31 <myndzi> well you could use the part message
03:46:42 <myndzi> definitely ignore the obnoxious user
03:47:00 <variable> Gregor, as well as limiting channel joins to 1/3 min or so
03:47:07 <Gregor> myndzi: I don't want to ignore, it's possible that they just forgot to op or something.
03:47:26 <myndzi> ok, ignore on two offenses then ;p
03:47:39 <Gregor> Maybe I'll just keep it as-is: Only people who are considered ops to glogbot itself are allowed to !glogbot_join, but others may !glogbot_part if they're ops on the channel in question.
03:48:02 <myndzi> oh, i thought he was already making use of /invite
03:48:14 <myndzi> i never /invite, forgot you had to be op
03:48:17 <myndzi> thought it was conditional
03:48:23 <variable> myndzi, by default you must be op
03:48:26 <myndzi> like, if channel is +i only ops can invite or something
03:48:37 <variable> there is a channel flag for everyone invite
03:48:49 <myndzi> freenode specific probably then
03:49:11 <variable> Gregor, another option is to *join* but not *log*
03:49:26 <Gregor> I'm loving the /invite idea.
03:59:54 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
04:03:46 <Gregor> Yup, /invite = good times.
04:08:31 <Gregor> So yeah, if anybody wants their channel logged, /invite glogbot.
04:09:39 <Gregor> My fancy new logger bot I made because I wanted logs in a raw format.
04:09:44 <zzo38> Perhaps it can help that immediately after invited, sends a NOTICE to the channel with the URL of the logs for that channel?
04:10:06 <zzo38> Gregor: That is good, now we have 2 formats on glogbot and 1 format on clog.
04:10:13 <Gregor> zzo38: You're right, it should.
04:10:27 <Sgeo> It should be a Freenode service
04:10:43 <zzo38> Sgeo: Or perhaps a subcommand of CS
04:10:48 <Sgeo> That way, logs in topic can be.. well, can't know if theere are other logbots, but
04:11:28 <zzo38> Like, CS LOGS to configure logs for a channel and view status information about logs for a channel.
04:12:43 <zzo38> At least to me, it makes sense, that if it were a Freenode service, make it a subcommand of the CS command. Now anyone can check if there is logs by typing something such as CS LOGS STATUS #freenode
04:13:03 <zzo38> Or CS LOGS #freenode STATUS
04:13:46 -!- variable has joined.
04:15:38 <zzo38> Perhaps if they do that, subcommands of CS LOGS might be: STATUS START STOP NEW TIMEZONE MESSAGE AUXLINK ANNOTATE
04:30:44 <Gregor> <variable> Gregor, another option is to *join* but not *log* // btw I don't really have the ability to use this option, as my logs include literally every byte into and out of the bot excluding the nickserv identification request.
04:31:20 <Gregor> Even privmsgs are all publicly logged.
04:31:42 <variable> /invite works on Freenode then
04:31:58 <zzo38> INVITE is a standard IRC command.
04:32:01 <Gregor> This is a one-network logger bot :P
04:32:10 <Gregor> zzo38: The problem with other networks is that I'm using /invite to imply +o
04:32:18 <Gregor> zzo38: That's only true (by default) on Freenode.
04:32:22 <variable> zzo38, yes - but I don't know if it could be guaranteed to be limited to opers
04:33:14 <zzo38> Well, glogbot is for Freenode only anyways; if it is made for other networks as well then more features to edit those configuration can be added to it.
04:35:39 <zzo38> On my own server it is not problem for a few reasons, one of which is that it uses server side logging. Also the policy is different, and only channels with topic messages are logged anyways, so there is no such problem. If other IRC networks could also do server side logging then it is not much of the problem anymore. Such as adding a CS LOGS command, for networks that use the CS command.
04:36:29 <zzo38> In Freenode, if you use the command HELP INVITE it tells you a few things about the INVITE command in IRC.
04:39:26 <zzo38> Neither HELP INVITE nor HELP CMODE tells anything about only operators use INVITE command.
04:40:27 <zzo38> Another possibility is to have it log channels with the property USEGLOGBOT set.
04:41:55 <zzo38> I think even with networks with CS, they do not all support CS SET PROPERTY though.
04:44:03 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
04:44:12 -!- pikhq has joined.
04:51:16 <Sgeo> I probably should not start humming My Heart Will Go On when I see some trigonometry
04:52:03 <Sgeo> Just in this one case
04:53:22 <Sgeo> "That's a very complicated way of doing it, so there's an easier way" as though difficulty just makes easier ways appear out of magic
04:53:45 <Sgeo> Because "near [cos], far [sin], wherever you are"...
05:04:46 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Daemon escaped from pentagram).
05:11:10 <Sgeo> Let's move to space!
05:11:49 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:12:48 -!- wareya has joined.
06:36:02 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
06:36:16 -!- copumpkin has joined.
06:52:31 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to hipsterpumpkin.
06:59:41 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
06:59:50 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
06:59:55 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
07:08:54 <zzo38> BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT STILL SLEEPING!
07:08:59 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:09:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:09:36 * pikhq_ is getting a kick out of the myth of Osiris and Isis...
07:10:14 <pikhq_> Osiris died and rose again. Through him all can have eternal life.
07:10:30 <pikhq_> And it was a common ritual to consume his flesh, in the form of unleavened bread.
07:31:33 -!- augur has joined.
07:38:04 <pikhq_> Man, there's still native speakers of one of the languages on the Rosetta Stone.
07:43:25 <pikhq_> Having the oldest writings that can, in a genuinely meanigful sense, be said to be in a modern language.
07:47:47 <augur> that is incorrect.
07:48:08 <augur> ancient greek and modern greek are not mutually intelligible.
07:48:32 <pikhq_> I thought they actually had a large degree of mutual intelligibility?
07:51:22 <pikhq_> Okay, then I guess the claim for "oldest writings that can, in a genuinely meaningful sense, be said to be in a modern language" would almost have to go for Classical Chinese. Except the damned bastards in China had to kill that off last century. :P
07:51:44 <augur> also classical chinese is quite distinct from mandarin.
07:51:57 <augur> and even last century noone spoke classical chinese natively
07:52:23 <pikhq_> The use of Classical Chinese was more akin to the use of Latin than anything else, except it took longer to stop.
07:52:40 <augur> but that doesnt make it a modern language.
07:53:34 <pikhq_> Except that it served as essentially the *only* form of writing.
07:54:02 <pikhq_> So, "modern" in the sense that people actually used it, not modern in the sense that it was a fucking zombie language.
07:54:14 <augur> "people" didnt actually use it
07:54:33 <augur> it was the written language, sure
07:54:46 <augur> most chinese people were completely illiterate, and the only people who could write did so for rather officious reasons
07:55:12 <pikhq_> Oh, dur, Chinese literacy only really came about after the switch to "vernacular" Chinese.
07:55:45 <pikhq_> (though, Written Chinese is only an accurate encoding of the vernacular for a *subset* of speakers of Chinese languages... But I digress.)
07:56:07 <augur> modern written mandarin is indeed only accurate for mandarin speakers
07:56:19 <augur> but thats like saying modern written dutch is only accurate for dutch speakers
07:56:26 <augur> germans write in written german
07:56:32 <augur> cantonese speakers write in written cantonese
07:56:44 <pikhq_> And every other speaker of a Chinese language is boned.
07:57:13 <pikhq_> Most of the Chinese languages are not commonly written.
07:57:40 <augur> true, but most chinese speakers write their native chinese language.
07:58:10 <augur> and the top half dozen or so chinese languages are commonly written
08:01:43 <pikhq_> Perhaps I should stick to talking about languages I actually know. :P
08:02:47 <pikhq_> Clearly this means I need to become immortal, and thereby have time to learn all languages. :P
08:03:14 <augur> if you were a time lord
08:05:19 <augur> if you were a timelord you'd already know every language in the universe
08:05:43 <pikhq_> Yes, if I were actually a timelord.
08:06:04 <pikhq_> If I merely had some of the properties of a timelord, I'd have to work at it. But what's a few millenia out of eternity, anyways?
08:09:34 -!- asiekierka has joined.
08:44:50 -!- pikhq has joined.
08:45:00 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
08:53:09 <augur> pikhq: mind you, time lords only get 13 lives
09:15:12 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
09:20:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game).
09:20:33 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
09:21:07 -!- asiekierka has joined.
09:22:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
09:30:26 -!- sftp has joined.
09:37:33 -!- oerjan has joined.
09:38:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:48:39 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:54:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
09:54:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host).
09:54:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
10:09:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
10:09:47 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*).
11:44:30 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
11:45:02 -!- pikhq has joined.
12:24:12 <Phantom_Hoover> COMRADE PIKHQ WHY IS GLORIOVS CHANNEL TOPIC CONTAINING CAPITALIST LOWER CASE
12:29:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
12:40:35 -!- Wamanuz5 has joined.
12:43:43 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
12:51:03 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
12:54:57 -!- cheater99 has joined.
12:55:03 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
13:08:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
13:22:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
13:23:09 -!- glogbot has joined.
13:54:24 <Phantom_Hoover> [[A falling cat's terminal velocity is 100 km/h]] — WP
13:55:31 <fizzie> Maybe with the vertical wind tunnel + net thing.
13:56:21 -!- hipsterpumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
13:56:48 -!- hipsterpumpkin has joined.
13:56:49 <oklopol> "<fizzie> Maybe with the vertical wind tunnel + net thing." <<< luckiest cat in the world
13:57:17 <fizzie> There's no citation for that number. :/
13:57:52 <oklopol> you just need a cat and an earth
13:57:52 <fizzie> oklopol: But that would be ORIGINAL RESEARCH, a big no-no.
13:58:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I am now eternally depressed that that experiment has already been done.
13:59:01 <oklopol> why don't they like original research? it makes sense but i'm not sure why
13:59:15 <oklopol> which reminds me that i really really want to play mc right now
14:00:59 <oklopol> the pixels are too big on my screen
14:02:08 <fizzie> I play MC with the 960x1200 window instead of fullscreen partially because the vertically oriented window doesn't make it scale the UI parts so hueg.
14:02:49 <oklopol> oh sorry the mc and the pixel comment didn't have anything to do with each other
14:04:02 <oklopol> i'm not actually *going* to play, i have to prove theorems and prepare a lecture and watch a season of house
14:04:49 <oklopol> probably in the order 1. watch a season of house 2. oh fuck it's late i'll wake up at 3am to do the rest
14:17:13 <Gregor> There are in fact 42 instances of "destinated" *bran axplote*
14:17:35 <fizzie> How many instances of "axplote"?
14:18:08 <oklopol> the material i'm doing had this pretty hilarious theorem, "for small enough value of a there exist d = d(a) and a constant B_a such that m_B(B_d^n(y)) <= B_a*e^(-nh) for all y \in X, n >= 1" where m_B is a measure, and B_d^n(y) is a kind of ball around y; and then they build, given a value of a, d and B_a with a straight face :D
14:18:21 <oklopol> well i guess you had to be there.
14:19:37 <oklopol> d and B_a depend on a, and they don't even explicitly mention what "small enough" means, even though that is all that matters since m_B(B_d^n(y)) <= B_a*e^(-nh) doesn't even use "a" anywhere
14:23:16 <oklopol> actually for fun, let me define B_d^n(x), it is the set {y \in X | \forall 0 <= i < n: dist(x, y) < d}, where X is a compact metric space and T is an homeomorphism of the space to itself (the dynamics, which we assume reversible here)
14:23:44 <oklopol> B_d^n(x) = {y \in X | \forall 0 <= i < n: dist(x, T^i(y)) < d} of course
14:24:12 <oklopol> okay last attempt: B_d^n(x) = {y \in X | \forall 0 <= i < n: dist(T^i(x), T^i(y)) < d}
14:29:12 <oklopol> people never join the definition frenzy with their own definitions, and it's no fun alone
14:29:58 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:30:04 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
14:30:27 <oklopol> okay let (X, T) be as previously, we say T is expansive if there exists a constant d such that for all x, y \in X, exists n such that dist(T^n(x), T^n(y)) > d
14:39:41 <oklopol> hmm, it seems if there are no isolated points then necessarily the n don't have a uniform bound: given d, we take an arbitrary x. by continuity of T, there exists d_1 such that dist(T'(x), y) < d_1 implies dist(x, T(y)) < d, where T' is the inverse of T. similarly, we find d_i for all i, so that if dist(T'^i(x), y) < d_i, then dist(x, T^i(y)) < d. if there are no isolated points, we can then always choose some such y
14:39:58 <oklopol> x isolated point = {x} is an open set
14:40:09 <oklopol> that is, there exists an open ball that is a singleton set
14:42:00 <oklopol> actually my first instinct was that there must be a uniform bound, by what compactness usually gives you. but it's actually a rather retarded thing to think now that i think about it.
14:48:03 <oklopol> actually i was just thinking about math orgies today
14:48:15 <Gregor> Best (worst?) kind of orgies.
14:49:18 <oklopol> Sgeo has some good definitions i'm sure
14:49:30 <oklopol> Sgeo: would you like to engage in exchange of mental fluids
14:49:54 <Sgeo> I'm going to pretend I'm AFK
14:50:21 <oklopol> on a completely other matter, what have you learned on the courses?
14:51:28 <oklopol> did you ever manage to prove that (x + y)/2 + 0/2 = x/2 + y/2
14:53:01 <oklopol> the intersection of diagonals problem
14:53:14 <oklopol> i can give you a hint: you need two axioms, one is not enough
14:54:15 <oklopol> sadistic bitches, there are like 10 axioms so level 2 requires like 100 attempts
14:55:27 <oklopol> oh wait then there's the axioms (ab)*v = a*(b*v) where a, b in the field, v a vector. when the scalars are R, that might take some time
14:56:00 <oklopol> you can apply that... what's 4 times uncountable?
14:56:40 <oklopol> but it's divisible by two, so maybe you could prove the claim for p*uncountable where p is a prime first, and then show the the numbers that satisfy it are closed under multiplication
14:57:12 <oklopol> (i hope i don't have to clarify that this makes absolutely no sense)
14:57:34 <oklopol> erm and i meant 4 is composite
15:06:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, so wait, have you given up on the category theory?
15:07:22 <oklopol> Sgeo: teach me some category theory
15:08:16 <oklopol> ah okay so far so good what then
15:08:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, oerjan mentioned he was a line researcher once...
15:08:29 <oklopol> can you have many lines, like, over 67
15:11:28 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: u got any fun definitions
15:11:30 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, if I could learn all of math all at once, I would
15:11:46 <Sgeo> There happens to be more convenient learning material for multivariable calculus
15:11:52 <oklopol> me too especially all of it
15:12:01 <oklopol> and in particular, everything
15:12:10 <oklopol> calculus is pretty meh yeah
15:15:18 <oklopol> semigroups are the more fun
15:16:48 <oklopol> yes yes and pi should be 2pi, stop repeating your crazy arguments
15:17:47 <Gregor> glogbot now sends you a notice if you set the /topic to something that doesn't contain the logging URL. I estimate time until somebody bitches about that to be roughly two days. Excluding the response immediately to this message.
15:18:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: The Glorious People's Socialist Democratic Egalitarian Progressive Republic of Esoterica | DECADENT CAPITALIST NEOPAGANS NEED NOT APPLY | Try out GLORIOVS MARXIST yoob @ http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | DIELECTRIC SOCIALIST HISTORY: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | JOURNAL OF COMRADE GLOGBOT: REMOVED FOR SOCIALIST SCIENCE.
15:18:28 <oklopol> Gregor: i dislike you because you implemented that penis of a feature
15:18:48 <Gregor> lawl, apparently it always notices me X-D
15:19:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: The Glorious People's Socialist Democratic Egalitarian Progressive Republic of Esoterica | DECADENT CAPITALIST NEOPAGANS NEED NOT APPLY | Try out GLORIOVS MARXIST yoob @ http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | DIELECTRIC SOCIALIST HISTORY: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | JOURNAL OF COMRADE GLOGBOT: REMOVED FOR MORE SOCIALIST SCIENCE.
15:19:02 <Gregor> OK, NOW it notices the offender :P
15:19:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: The Glorious People's Socialist Democratic Egalitarian Progressive Republic of Esoterica | DECADENT CAPITALIST NEOPAGANS NEED NOT APPLY | Try out GLORIOVS MARXIST yoob @ http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | DIELECTRIC SOCIALIST HISTORY: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | JOURNAL OF COMRADE GLOGBOT: http://gregorr.dyndns.org:8080/logs/_esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
15:19:52 <Gregor> Since the beginning of time.
15:20:07 <fizzie> I thought it was just a suggestion. And/or to mention the logging in the welcome message, not the topic.
15:20:21 <oklopol> and what does mister newbie know
15:20:39 <oklopol> and i wonder even read part of the welcome message of this channel
15:20:52 <fizzie> "If you're publishing logs on an ongoing basis, your channel topic should reflect that fact."
15:20:57 <fizzie> I guess at least now it says like that.
15:21:12 <Gregor> It's somewhat unclear whether it's a strict policy or just a strong suggestion.
15:21:23 <Gregor> But either way it's a glogbot policy to consider it a Freenode policy :P
15:21:38 <fizzie> "Be sure to provide a way for users to make comments without logging --"
15:21:58 <Gregor> That's trickier with a raw logging bot :P
15:22:29 <oklopol> heeey i want to be able to make comments without logging
15:22:52 <Gregor> I could make it not log channel notices.
15:22:57 <oklopol> then i won't have to censor my speech all the time
15:23:15 <fizzie> <span x-esoteric-log:logging="false" xmlns:x-esoteric-log="http://codu.org/glogbot-namespaces/logging-metadata">Can I do it like this?</span>
15:23:17 <Gregor> I wonder if clog logs notices ...
15:23:32 <Gregor> fizzie: Yeah, I'm not gonna parse pseudoHTML :P
15:24:17 <Gregor> Well, I could make glogbot not (publicly) log notices anyway, but it'd be pretty pointless.
15:24:32 <fizzie> How many logs would a clog log, if clog could log logs?
15:24:57 * Gregor pokes fizzie in the eye with a stick.
15:26:03 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: <span> tastes like HTML to me.
15:27:06 <fizzie> Maybe you could keep a map of "don't log this" :nick!user@host prefixes, and add to that list whenever says "glogbot: I hate you I hate you I HATE YOU"?
15:27:57 <fizzie> Then it's stateful, though. :/
15:28:16 <Gregor> It's stateful anyway, it has a channel list and op list *shrugs*
15:28:21 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: more time,
15:28:41 <fizzie> fungot: Couldn't you be case-insensitive anyway?
15:28:41 <fungot> fizzie: i had actually forgotten most of the time
15:28:59 <Gregor> FUNGOT YOU HAVE NOT FORGOTTEN OFTEN ENOUGH
15:31:23 <Sgeo> I'd like to be able to make one-off comments that aren't logged
15:31:53 <fizzie> Perhaps you just mass-privmsg your non-logged comments to everyone on channel.
15:32:11 <fizzie> (That's going to be real popular.)
15:32:23 <Gregor> So it doesn't open query windows (usually)
15:32:41 <Gregor> I can add nonlogged bits to glogbot, but it's pointless w/ clog still here.
15:32:44 <fizzie> It's still going to end up not being associated with the correct channel.
15:32:58 <Gregor> fizzie: Better to be in the wrong channel than in a bloody query window.
15:33:20 <fizzie> What was wrong with clog, incidentally? (Except the fact that it's broken every now and then.)
15:33:28 <Gregor> I just wanted raw logs.
15:33:59 <Gregor> Raw and GETTIMEOFDAYEY
15:34:27 <fizzie> So how does your logging format distinguish between the two seconds around a leap second that have the same unix-time number?
15:34:47 <Gregor> IT DOES NOT, AND EVERYBODY GETS CONFUSED
15:38:23 <Gregor> Does gettimeofday do something tricky with it?
15:38:35 <fizzie> I don't think it does, no.
15:38:37 <Gregor> Like report tv_usec values greater than 100000
15:38:49 <Gregor> I typoed 1000000 btw :P
15:40:31 <fizzie> ".. proposed a similar solution:
15:40:31 <fizzie> gettimeofday() will not return during 23:59:60. If a process calls
15:40:31 <fizzie> gettimeofday() during a leap second, then the call will sleep until 0:00:00
15:40:31 <fizzie> when it can return the correct result.
15:40:31 <fizzie> This horrified the real-time people. It is, however, strictly speaking,
15:40:45 <fizzie> Heh, that would be a rather unexpected "solution".
15:40:56 <fizzie> (I don't think anything does that.)
15:41:06 <Gregor> Yeah, that's Very Bad™ w.r.t. realtime.
15:41:35 <Gregor> It could just fail with E_INTERRUPTED (or whatever that error code is) if it's called at the wrong time.
15:41:46 <Gregor> But I suppose most people work under the assumption that gettimeofday never fails :P
15:42:32 <olsner> a pretty funny workaround though
15:42:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:43:25 <fizzie> Someone has suggested a CLOCK_UTC secondary clock, for which clock_gettime would return >=1000000000 tv_nsec values.
15:50:01 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
15:50:05 -!- pikhq has joined.
15:52:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
15:53:50 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:53:52 -!- FireFly has joined.
15:54:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:13:27 <ais523> hmm, I wouldn't expect this channel to be full of blogs
16:14:06 <cheater99> ais523: at least oklopol is a blog (and possibly more people)
16:14:35 <ais523> do you mean "blogger"?
16:15:12 <oklopol> everyone says i'm a blog and i don't am in my opinion :(
16:17:26 <ais523> oklopol: that's some of the best abuse of grammar I've ever seen, I'm impressed
16:18:31 <oklopol> i am amn't i = i am (am)^{-1} i = i i = 1 if i is an involution though
16:19:03 <oklopol> this is where math stops and poetry begins
16:24:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
16:24:34 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
16:36:17 <fizzie> oklopol: I think you're more of an involuntary than an involution.
16:38:02 <oklopol> can you elaborate on that? i'm not entirely sure what you mean
16:38:11 <oklopol> preferably in semigroup terms
16:39:04 <fizzie> 1. (1) involuntary, nonvoluntary, unvoluntary -- (not subject to the control of the will; "involuntary manslaughter"; "involuntary servitude"; "an involuntary shudder"; "It (becoming a hero) was involuntary. They sank my boat"- John F.Kennedy)
16:39:12 <fizzie> Those quotes sound very okoish.
16:40:20 <oklopol> well i suppose i've experimented in all of those
16:40:22 -!- hipsterpumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
16:40:23 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
16:40:23 -!- copumpkin has joined.
17:07:55 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
17:07:56 -!- lament has joined.
17:10:27 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
17:15:41 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
17:18:53 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
17:34:57 * tswett scans the names list for ehird and finds him absent.
17:35:28 <tswett> Gregor: you'll have to fulfill the role of ehird, then.
17:35:34 <tswett> How's Minecraft been treating you?
17:35:40 <ais523> tswett: e's "elliott" on IRC nowadays, but isn't here right now
17:39:41 <Sgeo> ais523, is multivariable calculus, in fact, boring?
17:39:58 <ais523> Sgeo: it can become routine after a while
17:40:10 <ais523> I'm not sure I'd call it boring, it's more like arithmetic, just more complex
17:40:24 <ais523> it's certainly boring if you have to do it hundreds of times out of context for no reason
17:40:26 <ais523> but so are most things
17:40:52 <Sgeo> Should I bother continuing this MIT thing, or should I look for something else to try to learn?
17:42:38 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
17:52:06 <Gregor> KITTY KITTY KITTY KITTY KITTY KITTY
18:09:05 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:10:32 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, yeah, elliott stormed off and hasn't been seen since.
18:12:01 <tswett> Gregor: I see. Excellent.
18:13:13 <zzo38> Why does anyone with ops need to request glogbot parted, can't you use the KICK command for that? Just like INVITE can join, then KICK can part, isn't it?
18:13:48 <Gregor> zzo38: I suppose I could make kick serve that function, good point. !glogbot_part is just a bit more civil :P
18:15:02 <oklopol> Sgeo: learning theory is overrated, just do math problems and all will be zen
18:18:15 <oklopol> on your level, you can find fun exercises by just browsing wp and proving definitions of things equivalent
18:19:25 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, WP is not useful for learning or getting interesting problems.
18:20:14 <oklopol> i imagine proving the definitions of continuity to be equivalent would not be trivial for him
18:20:43 <oklopol> Gregor: i'm sure you can prove them equivalent easily, that's not the point. and i'm not zzo
18:20:54 <oklopol> although 13 seconds is impressive
18:24:46 <oklopol> also mostly my point was that on his level, he can *even use wikipedia*
18:24:46 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:24:51 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:38:58 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:41:27 <oklopol> i suppose the standard kind of noob, can't really do anything unless it has to do with reals
18:41:42 <oklopol> that is, some integration/arithmetics shit
18:42:27 <oklopol> i suppose i mean someone who doesn't care about sets
18:43:09 <oklopol> i like them when they are used in moderation
18:43:33 * Phantom_Hoover recalls that x^x behaves quite weirdly if you go below 0, but he couldn't be bothered to actually wrestle with Mathematica enough to work out more.
18:43:46 <oklopol> i mostly use them to metrize topologies
18:46:21 <Phantom_Hoover> It also makes graphing functions from R to C unnecessarily difficult.
18:52:27 <zzo38> I madea graph of y=x^x in my graphing calculator. I made it graph one line for the real and one for imaginary.
18:56:43 <zzo38> On the negative x, the real and imaginary line both are curved up and down (and they cross each other). On positive x, the imaginary is zero and the real goes slightly down and then curves upward. 0^0=1 and the line is proper there
18:57:48 <zzo38> xmin=-2.5, xmax=2.5, xscl=.25, ymin=-2.5, ymax=2.5, yscl=.25, xres=2.
18:58:32 <cheater99> hey can mathematica open this cdf stuff or do i really really need the "player"?
19:01:12 -!- variable has joined.
19:11:47 <zzo38> I partially made a documentation for TeX Chess. http://sprunge.us/NKBJ http://sprunge.us/Geaf
19:15:59 <zzo38> The title page has the hacker emblem with chess.
19:21:57 -!- cheater00 has joined.
19:22:18 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Then don't use Mathematica.
19:24:28 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:30:42 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:33:43 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:46:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Huh, Khan Academy doesn't seem to have anything on abstract algebra.
19:46:56 <copumpkin> Phantom_Hoover: it doesn't handle a lot of the actual interesting math out there
19:46:58 <oklopol> if khan academy is the one i checked out, they don't really have anything
19:47:13 <copumpkin> they cover a lot of high school math and intro college math
19:47:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, I was confused by that given the recommendations for it.
19:48:12 <copumpkin> I hear it's quite good for those things
19:48:16 <copumpkin> but definitely doesn't go into much depth
19:54:06 <Mathnerd314> there is simply *no room* on the internet for in-depth mathematics
19:54:30 <ais523> the internet is not paper!
20:00:31 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
20:18:44 <pikhq> Yeah. Paper's cheap.
20:18:48 <pikhq> Bits are expensive.
20:20:03 <Phantom_Hoover> You'll be wanting some bits then? That'll be a guinea for an ounce.
20:20:28 <pikhq> Afraid I've only got that in pence.
20:23:08 -!- iGnoi has joined.
20:25:09 <oklopol> iiirirrrioo iroo iiirrrroriooi
20:25:14 <iGnoi> Phantom_Hoover, esh kall
20:25:52 <iGnoi> I`M RUSSIAN PIDARAS
20:26:07 <oklopol> i'm finnish zdedeflemek :DS
20:26:51 -!- iGnoi has left.
20:30:23 <zzo38> iGnoi: Your message won't work to anyone with their client set to UTF-8
20:30:58 <zzo38> oklopol: Did you set your client to UTF-8 or something else?
20:31:19 <zzo38> Probably not UTF-8, because it will not display in UTF-8 mode.
20:31:32 <oklopol> it was high quality white noise
20:32:39 <zzo38> To me it just looks like one solid block which is very long
20:36:49 <Gregor> UTF-8 is the One True Solution
20:59:32 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:59:40 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:59:40 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: yah, at least.
21:06:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Quick, someone tell me what the hell the mask in regionset does.
21:07:40 -!- lament has joined.
21:29:22 <zzo38> Tell me if you can solve the following chess game (as the white (uppercase) player): 8/8/8/2p5/1pp5/brpp4/qpprpK1P/1nkbn3
21:29:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: The Other Game).
21:32:46 <oklopol> zzo38: i can tell you i *won't* solve it
21:33:00 <zzo38> oklopol: OK, then don't, is OK.
21:33:08 <zzo38> Can you unsolve it?
21:34:22 <ais523> zzo38: it's got to be a stalemate, surely?
21:34:23 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:34:34 <zzo38> ais523: No, it isn't.
21:34:56 <ais523> Black's pawns are going rightwards, as usual?
21:35:08 <ais523> I vaguely recognise the position, I may have seen it before
21:35:11 <ais523> but I can't remember the solution
21:35:32 * oerjan thought black pawns usually went downwards
21:35:51 <zzo38> Black pawns are going as usual (they are all stuck currently).
21:36:16 <ais523> I mean, rightwards in the notation
21:36:22 <zzo38> oerjan: They go from rank 7 to rank 1, and white pawns go from rank 2 to rank 8. So, yes they do go downward.
21:36:30 <ais523> oh, they're stuck on pieces
21:36:35 <zzo38> ais523: And yes they go rightwards in the notation (digits means blank spaces)
21:37:28 <ais523> I recognise the notation, just forgot which was left and which was right
21:37:57 <oerjan> <oklopol> well i guess you had to be there.
21:40:05 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, oerjan mentioned he was a line researcher once...
21:40:11 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:41:34 <zzo38> How do you think it can be stalemate? I think it is clearly win for white regardless of which player plays first.
21:41:35 <oklopol> oerjan: i think he was being colorful
21:41:54 <ais523> zzo38: I misread it as having blank spaces in front of Black's pawns
21:42:10 <zzo38> Black is all blocked everywhere because they have too many things in the wrong place.
21:44:54 <zzo38> Actually I do not think it can work if black plays first, because then black can promote and unblock everything.
21:45:12 <oerjan> <Gregor> I could make it not log channel notices.
21:45:26 <oerjan> i recall from earlier clog doesn't log strange CTCP's :D
21:46:10 <ais523> oerjan: I do like that, but can't figur out how to send a response in my client
21:46:21 <ais523> because I can't type the control-A
21:46:21 <zzo38> What if it is <CTCP>inside of a message<CTCP>?
21:46:29 <ais523> oh, thanks for the control-A, I can copy-paste that
21:46:33 <oerjan> ais523: you don't have a /ctcp command?
21:46:39 <ais523> oerjan: it doesn't send replies
21:46:48 <ais523> <CTCP>like this yes I do like that<CTCP>
21:46:49 <zzo38> Maybe /ctcpnotice?
21:47:06 <zzo38> I don't know what clients or what commands the different ones have.
21:47:22 <oerjan> ais523: hm i didn't know there was a particular "reply" distinction?
21:47:31 <oerjan> but my client apparently thinks so
21:47:33 <zzo38> oerjan: NOTICE is for replies, PRIVMSG for requests.
21:47:36 <ais523> oerjan: CTCP replies are NOTICE-based, the CTCPs themselves are PRIVMSG based
21:47:45 <ais523> s/PRIVMSG based/PRIVMSG-based/
21:48:20 <oerjan> ais523: except bizarrely clog _did_ log your notice version
21:48:43 <Sgeo> "A closure in Javascript is a black box. This makes sense most of the time - but not for the system designer."
21:48:48 <ais523> oerjan: who sends CTCP replies to channel?
21:48:52 <ais523> I'm pretty sure that's against the spec
21:48:55 <Sgeo> I.. never even considered that a clojure could be something other than a black box
21:49:06 <zzo38> In my client both requests and replies are sent by the actual CTRL+A key (although it can be configured to automatically send replies to some messages)
21:49:39 <zzo38> You can send CTCP replies to channel manually I guess, but I do not know why. Generally automatic replies are never sent to the channel.
21:50:06 <ais523> well, I did it to make a stupid joke
21:50:10 <ais523> surely that's a good reason?
21:50:28 * zzo38 is this some reply command now that it says NOTICE?
21:50:50 <oerjan> zzo38: my client thought it was
21:51:15 <ais523> my client just showed it literally
21:51:27 <myndzi> ais523> oerjan: who sends CTCP replies to channel?
21:51:32 <myndzi> i used to flood autopingers that way
21:51:39 <myndzi> nobody protects from ctcp replies
21:52:25 <oerjan> glogbot currently logs all of those, anyway...
21:52:52 <zzo38> My client does no special processing to replies, it just displays them. Special processing is applied to reply to requests, or to PONG to server PING. Therefore, it is immune to such attacks.
21:53:57 <myndzi> scripts that respond to the word 'ping' and then ping you
21:54:00 <myndzi> and then tell you your ping replie
21:54:10 <myndzi> which is to say: just about the most useless scripts ever
21:54:22 <myndzi> particularly when people use them in a help channel and they match on *ping*
21:54:32 <myndzi> there's other ways to turn them "off"
21:54:46 <oerjan> myndzi: i guess they are not helping, then
21:54:57 <zzo38> Should there be a CTRL+A SPECIAL command?
21:54:58 <myndzi> it got real bad at one point
21:55:16 <myndzi> i don't want to tell someone how to use /ctcp ping only to get spammed by a bunch of noobscripts
21:55:30 <ais523> most people don't use those sorts of scripts around here anyway
21:55:40 <ais523> you have the \o/ thing, but it's the only script of that nature I've seen
21:55:44 <myndzi> anyway one time i went to the home channel for one of the full scripts that included an autopinger
21:55:51 <myndzi> and ctcp reply flooded the channel
21:55:56 <myndzi> then giggled at all the excess floods
21:56:13 <ais523> you mean people just turn on everything, even though they haven't checked what they do?
21:56:21 <oerjan> fungot: ais523 doesn't seem to have seen you
21:56:22 <fungot> oerjan: if you really have to go to fnord either and try to make a huge difference between python and the second element is the symbol it. /misc/ _old/ fizban/ kern fnord fnord'
21:56:27 <Gregor> oerjan: glogbot provides a raw log, so at the moment every byte that goes in and out is logged, although e.g. strange CTCPs aren't baked.
21:56:43 <Gregor> oerjan: I could make it exclude lines that matched certain parameters.
21:56:50 <ais523> oerjan: but I treat saying "fungot" (or "optbot", I suppose) as a deliberate attempt to trigger the bot
21:56:51 <fungot> ais523: is he that unreachable? and equal?
21:56:55 <Gregor> But "strange CTCP" is a strange one even for that :P
21:57:17 <Sgeo> I should probably shave
21:57:48 <myndzi> ais523: you're assuming only smart people use irc
21:57:55 <myndzi> maybe freenode has distorted your perceptions
21:57:59 <ais523> myndzi: well, they have to find the servers somehow
21:58:08 <myndzi> but the main thing is that the scripts are always written crappily
21:58:16 <myndzi> they might flood protect the 'ping me' request
21:58:22 <myndzi> but never the part that receives and responds to the reply
21:58:25 <Gregor> Hence why we're all on Freenode, and particularly on #esoteric :P
21:58:28 <Gregor> It's a sanity bastion.
21:58:43 <oerjan> yeah no one sane could ever find us
21:59:06 <myndzi> you wanna know a cool trick on bahamut based servers?
21:59:56 <zzo38> Gregor: Probably the raw logs should keep it although it might be very useful to remove some things from formatted logs, such as discarding all control characters from all messages (clog keeps some in, although it is bad in formatted logs, it is good in raw logs to keep control characters in).
22:00:05 <zzo38> myndzi: What is trick?
22:00:12 <myndzi> gregor doesn't want to know
22:00:20 <myndzi> privmsg @+#chan,@#chan,+#chan,#chan is the trick
22:00:34 <myndzi> but when you realize that unreal is based on bahamut
22:00:38 <myndzi> and it has like 5 usermodes...
22:01:34 <zzo38> If you do that, will it send messages to operators four times?
22:01:37 <myndzi> but efnet used to have some servers with a shitty @# message handling
22:01:43 <myndzi> where it would send one message per op
22:02:01 <myndzi> sometimes the servers send to "status symbol and higher"
22:02:03 <myndzi> which would be 4 times
22:02:13 <myndzi> sometimes (like dalnet) they only send to explicit m atches
22:02:17 <myndzi> so 3 for ops, 3 for voices, 1 for regs
22:02:40 <myndzi> i reported it to quension in #bahamut years ago but nothing ever got done
22:02:46 <myndzi> they did eventually fix some other problems i reported though
22:03:03 <myndzi> i try to keep it on the "down low" because i haven't seen anyone flood that way but me :P
22:03:19 <myndzi> it is super effective though
22:04:12 <myndzi> join 0,#channels,#to,#flood
22:04:28 <myndzi> * 5, followed by disconnect -> 10 messages to multiple channels for cheap
22:05:08 <myndzi> that was my all time favorite
22:05:13 <myndzi> just whois your target, they are often on like 10 chans
22:05:23 <myndzi> plus joins bypass local +i
22:05:40 <myndzi> generally all the clones will have already joined by the time anything reacts, so you can't really stop it
22:05:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:06:14 <ais523> Gregor: ^ this is why all those VPSes ban IRC, I suspect
22:06:19 <myndzi> it doesn't drop you from the list when you change nicks
22:06:27 <Gregor> ais523: Yeah, I'm getting it :P
22:06:35 <myndzi> use them together = track nick changes without sharing a channel
22:06:40 <myndzi> but they finally fixed that one
22:07:13 <myndzi> might still apply on derivatives that haven't upgraded though
22:07:48 <ais523> I wonder why that sort of nonsense is so rare on Freenode? idiots not finding the server? or idiots deciding it's no fun?
22:09:12 <Gregor> Just directive. Idiots join IRC just to chat and be idiots together. Then they become vicious when they get tired of being merely stupid.
22:09:33 <Gregor> People who join IRC just to chat don't join Freenode.
22:10:13 <ais523> #esoteric being an exception? or do people join here hoping it's going to spend most of its time ontopic, then decide to stay?
22:10:56 <myndzi> from the dalnet days of yore
22:11:07 <myndzi> it appears that the packet/flood kiddies come along with warez and stuff
22:11:13 <ais523> I mean, I'm all for ontopic talk in #esoteric, but seem to be outnumbered
22:11:15 <myndzi> you'd get competing channels that attack each other
22:11:41 <myndzi> and in general just wind up attracting the sort of people who were into trying to keep botnets and whatnot
22:11:44 <oerjan> ais523: i suggest a small FORTE program to increase your number
22:12:07 <ais523> hmm, FORTE oneliners are impossible to write, because it's impossible to put a loop in one
22:12:15 <ais523> a two-liner could be done, but I'm not sure I could write one in a hurry
22:12:25 <zzo38> ais523: I have no against ontopic talks, although you can do many things discussed in here, ontopic should generally take priority.
22:12:49 <myndzi> i mostly just learned about flooding and stuff to learn
22:12:52 <ais523> zzo38: I think you're correct
22:12:57 <myndzi> and also to write an excellent channel protection bot ;)
22:13:03 <ais523> protection from idiots?
22:13:14 <myndzi> my test bed was #0!!!!!!!!!!!!!preteen101
22:13:28 <myndzi> so i don't think anyone will hate on me for it ;p
22:13:38 <oklopol> i have no against untopic either, but i also have yes against offtopic. i like to have ontopic talks, but if you want to have offtopic talks, that is OK.
22:13:39 <myndzi> the number of times i reduced that channel to like 2 users... man...
22:13:54 <ais523> oklopol: nobody can do zzo38ese quite as well as zzo38
22:14:03 <ais523> although that was still quite good
22:14:15 <ais523> myndzi: people actually joined it?
22:14:24 <myndzi> it usually had > 100 people
22:14:32 <ais523> (also, I didn't realise channel names /could/ start with a digit)
22:14:33 <myndzi> but they all had failscripts
22:14:40 <myndzi> it doesn't it starts with a #
22:14:56 <ais523> and the reduction to 2 users was just because you could? or because the other 98 were all idiots?
22:15:01 <oklopol> hey, that channel is empty
22:15:06 <myndzi> because it was a kiddie porn channel
22:15:08 <myndzi> in general i wasn't a douche to people who didn't deserve it
22:15:29 <myndzi> i was learning about IRC and flooding, and i took that knowledge and applied it to better things
22:15:55 <ais523> couldn't you just have reported it to the police?
22:15:58 <myndzi> i did pull a few stunts for the lulz though
22:16:06 <ais523> that would likely have worked better
22:16:07 <myndzi> (like the ping reply thing above)
22:16:21 <myndzi> "hello, police? there are people on the internet trading pictures..."
22:16:21 <oklopol> nothing wrong with a good flood, if all the participants are okay with it ofc, you have to have a safe word for these things
22:16:35 <myndzi> there were many channels like that on dalnet
22:16:44 <myndzi> i don't expect the police were likely to be able to do anything about it
22:16:56 <myndzi> such people connect through proxies and whatnot
22:17:13 -!- augur has joined.
22:18:03 <myndzi> i was a kid though, i found it more fun to harass them than report them. i guess i figured that if "just reporting it" would have done anything it wouldn't exist
22:18:16 <myndzi> these days i'd look at it rather differently
22:19:00 <myndzi> about pedos sharing pics?
22:19:28 <oklopol> seems like an essentially victimless crime
22:19:37 <myndzi> somebody makes the things
22:20:01 <oklopol> and sharing pics somehow moves money in their direction?
22:20:02 <myndzi> i suppose i can't really see a reason to disallow it if it didn't encourage more of the same
22:20:18 <oklopol> i guess the standard antipiracy arguments applky
22:20:20 <myndzi> even if i find it distasteful personally
22:20:27 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:20:32 <myndzi> but as far as i can tell, it's like warez and other things
22:20:38 <myndzi> where people do it for props
22:20:41 <ais523> oklopol: actually, I think the standard /propiracy/ arguments apply: it's illegal because pirating it encourages people to find legitimate sources
22:20:48 <cheater00> oklopol: the argument of "sharing Sting songs makes people buy more Sting albums"? :DDDDD
22:21:04 <myndzi> so if there's an audience, there's more inclination to provide for that audience
22:21:06 <oklopol> ais523: perhaps that's true, yes
22:21:11 <ais523> wow, I never noticed the huge inconsistency there before
22:21:32 * ais523 continues being excessively lawful good anyway
22:21:34 <myndzi> also, while i can't exactly say that everyone who looks at such pictures is a pedo
22:21:43 <myndzi> it's likely that active pedos look at such pictures
22:21:56 <myndzi> so it's good if they live in fear of getting 'caught'
22:22:21 <myndzi> rather than just say "oh, well, the pics already exist so have fun if you want"
22:23:26 * cheater00 goes back in time and abuses 13 year old myndzi
22:23:26 * myndzi goes back in time and abuses 13 year old cheater00
22:24:12 * myndzi goes back in time and divides by zero
22:26:31 <myndzi> aw, i put a burrito in the microwave on defrost and it burst
22:27:08 <Gregor> wtf happened to this channel >_>
22:27:22 <ais523> Gregor: quick, bring it back on topic
22:27:24 -!- tswett has changed nick to uorygl.
22:27:27 <cheater00> it was like berries and stuff.. the inside looked like a bloody mess
22:27:46 <myndzi> it went from ctcps to irc stuff to flooding to flooding pedo channels to pedos
22:27:47 <Gregor> ais523: I SHALL DEFEAT SLOWPOKE
22:27:53 <olsner> <Gregor> wtf happened to this channel >_> | <cheater00> it was like berries and stuff.. the inside looked like a bloody mess
22:28:37 <olsner> sounds like some kind of carnage happened to the channel
22:28:43 -!- uorygl has changed nick to tswett.
22:28:57 <ais523> I imagine FFSPG could be trivially tweaked to beat it
22:28:59 <augur> myndzi: when you loop de loop do you shoop da woop?
22:29:00 <myndzi> well i don't know any esoteric languages, just some somewhat esoteric irc things haha
22:29:01 <ais523> as I didn't realise how really close that match was
22:29:11 <ais523> myndzi: this is a good place to learn
22:29:26 <lament> and a good place to forget
22:29:58 <oerjan> lament is so good at it that he forgets to come here
22:29:59 <ais523> lament: you have a good name for it
22:30:11 <myndzi> another 'esoteric' dalnet tidbit:
22:30:32 <myndzi> chanserv doesn't break its UNBAN mode settings to < 512 bytes
22:30:52 <myndzi> so if you set bans that are long enough, you can use /cs unban to make chanserv send a mode string that gets truncated
22:31:11 <myndzi> it removes the modes it sent from its internal list, but the last one(s) that got cut off don't get removed from the channel
22:31:27 <myndzi> there was a better desynch at one point that let you make chanserv think a whole channel didn't exist when it did
22:31:36 <myndzi> but that one is fixed currently :PY
22:32:17 <myndzi> homework: write a script that creates five bans that are as long as possible and can all be set ;)
22:32:46 <myndzi> (if an existing ban covers the one you try to set it won't set, of course)
22:33:30 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if it's possible to use a domain more than 510 characters long, and end up impossible to ban by domain as a result?
22:33:56 <myndzi> it reverts to the ip if the host is too long
22:35:40 <ais523> although I don't think even the guy with a whole Befunge program in their hostname would exceed that limit
22:37:05 <ais523> nobody likes writing those
22:42:55 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to contrapumpkin.
22:47:05 <ais523> contrapumpkin: along the lines of covariant/contravariant?
22:49:29 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
22:50:03 * augur is drinking co-ffee
22:52:47 -!- contrapumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
22:54:40 -!- calamari has joined.
23:04:49 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:05:02 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:07:22 -!- calamari has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:08:45 -!- calamari has joined.
23:11:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:24:06 <zzo38> When I finished TeX Chess document then maybe I should post version 0.1 on Chess Variants and on CTAN?
23:34:48 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
23:35:10 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:55:42 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:07:37 -!- cheater- has joined.
00:10:40 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:55:29 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:55:38 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:57:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:07:00 -!- clog has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:17:38 <Gregor> Welp, the libm.so auction has started.
01:23:03 -!- esowiki has joined.
01:23:17 -!- glogbot has joined.
01:26:17 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
01:30:04 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:53:55 -!- lament has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
02:08:45 <Gregor> Given everybody else's ping timeouts, maybe my bots aren't actually doing anything wrong :P
02:22:36 -!- zzo38 has joined.
02:24:27 <zzo38> Still, I prefer SIRCL rather than the raw format that glogbot uses, but at least glogbot is not lying about the raw logs in the way that clog is doing.
02:25:13 <Sgeo_> How does clog lie?
02:26:49 <Gregor> zzo38: Do you have a description or example of SIRCL's format?
02:26:53 <zzo38> It says 'These logs are purposely "raw" and are intended to be parsed/reformated/wrapped before viewing.' but it isn't raw.
02:28:09 <Gregor> glogbot's raw format is not really meant to be readable, just bake-able. Its baked format could probably use some TLC.
02:28:32 <zzo38> Gregor: Very simple. UNIX timestamp, TAB, and then the message, terminated by CRLF (always CRLF, LF only is not allowed). Metadata commands have no TAB and have an asterisk as the first character of the line (before the timestamp, if any). Here is an actual log created in that format: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/irc_log/ADMIN/1291325292
02:29:47 <Gregor> The fact that that lines up the messages does make it more readable I'll admit.
02:31:02 <Gregor> I chose my format to 1) distinguish outgoing messages since it does in fact send messages out on requests, 2) have the totally-unnecessary added precision of gettimeofday and 3) use space delimitation for the simple reason that IRC is already space-delimited (modulo the :-to-EOL rule)
02:33:08 <zzo38> SIRCL format is not intended to be more or less readable than any others, it is just a way that makes sense to me. It uses TAB only after the timestamp; IRC commands are delimited with spaces and colons as normal. The TAB separates the timestamp from the message. It requires CRLF the same as the IRC prtoocol specification says it is. You are not required to use this format; but I do have it.
02:35:33 <Gregor> My log reformatter is extremely-lazily-written, and tokenizes my entire raw-format line as if it was an IRC message, so having spaces saves me one utterly-minor step X-P
02:35:37 <zzo38> (Also note these logs are created directly by the server, so in this case there is no need to distinguish send/receive, it simply logs everything that any client on that channel would receive. One way to use it in client logging if wanted, is to omit the sender part for sent messages. This format also supports metadata, although any program that creates or parses this format is not required to write or use it.)
02:35:51 <zzo38> Gregor: O, that makes sense, if that is how you wrote it.
02:44:10 <zzo38> I would, however, have the filenames a bit different: The raws have no extension (also no "-raw"), while the formatted ones formatted as HTML with the ".html" extension. So, for example, you would have "2011-03-20" and "2011-03-20.html" files. At least that is my opinion; you do not have to agree. But at least I like that you actually have raw logs, unlike clog.
02:45:19 <Gregor> I have considered making HTML ones ... the fact that the raw ones have a "-raw.txt" extension is because in my delusional imagination I postulate that the primary audience cares more about the baked logs, so marking the raw logs as "Here there be dragons" doesn't hurt *shrugs*
02:49:07 <Gregor> ANNOUNCEMENT: I am a superstitious ninny who unplugs my laptop from mains when there's a thunderstorm. Boo me.
02:50:12 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
02:50:25 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
02:51:07 <Gregor> I should add a PM command to glogbot that makes it so it notices you the last few lines when you join a channel. Opt-in of course.
02:52:44 <zzo38> I have invented SIRCL as a possible standard format for IRC logs.
02:53:13 <zzo38> Gregor: Yes, perhaps PRIVMSG glogbot :TAIL 12 for 12 lines, and put 0 to disable it.
02:53:38 * Gregor strongly considers this notion ...
02:54:29 <zzo38> There really also ought to be STATUS and HELP commands, even if you have no TAIL command like this.
02:55:11 <Gregor> I'm not sure what status would do, and there is !glogbot_help, although I could just as well make it respond to more in PM *shrugs*
02:56:40 <Sgeo_> I'm "helping" someone with chemistry by turning chemistry problems into.. stuff about marbles
03:00:52 <zzo38> In PM perhaps it would respond even if "!glogbot_" is not prefixed? And STATUS would display the URL as well as number of channels, possibly data rate and so on? Perhaps some option that the inviter can select whether or not commands sent to the channel are recognized? Some might want the log but not want it to recognize commands sent to the channel, which is why the channel operator should be able to turn it off somehow?
03:02:48 <zzo38> Perhaps if the channel operator sets channel mode +q glogbot!*@* then it will ignore commands sent to the channel completely... it could be implemented by having glogbot attempt to send a NOTICE with the log URL to the channel immediately after being invited....?
03:04:33 <zzo38> You receive a 404 if you send when you have +q that way it can check.
03:06:18 <Gregor> zzo38: What purpose is there in ignoring messages sent to the channel? It always responds with a personal NOTICE now, so it is not the one disturbing the peace.
03:07:02 <zzo38> Gregor: In case you want a channel without bot commands, or if there is confliction. So, two reasons.
03:09:38 <zzo38> At least I think that making it send the NOTICE with the URL and checking for 404, solves two problems at once. But that is just my opinion.
03:11:56 -!- esowiki has joined.
03:12:07 -!- glogbot has joined.
03:12:12 <Gregor> It just doesn't check for errors.
03:12:46 <Gregor> There, now it accepts truncated commands via PM :)
03:13:02 <Gregor> ... and hopefully not directly, as I shall test thusly:
03:13:14 <Gregor> s/directly/in a channel/
03:16:56 <Gregor> And now it has a passive-aggressive !glogbot_status command :)
03:17:41 <zzo38> OK, I can see that works.
03:34:22 <zzo38> Now, I wonder, should they implement a NS SET MODE command?
03:35:34 <zzo38> I can ask them maybe if they know
04:14:30 -!- wareya_ has joined.
04:15:27 <pikhq_> Aaaand the US cellphone market gets smaller still.
04:16:16 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
04:16:18 <pikhq_> This will leave us with precisely *one* GSM carrier in the US, as well.
04:16:36 <zzo38> I do not think one is enough?
04:16:56 <pikhq_> And three majors carriers overall.
04:17:18 <pikhq_> Ma Bell is coming back.
04:17:51 <zzo38> Well, it doesn't affect me, I do not use cellular telephones anyways.
04:18:20 <pikhq_> AT&T, Verizon, and Sprint.
04:19:30 <pikhq_> Sorry, I should specify; they're buying T-Mobile US; no overseas operations.
04:21:17 <zzo38> I live in Canada, but regardless of where I live I still do not use cellular phone.
04:28:23 <zzo38> Maybe later I will write more TeX programs, such as macros to make calendar, mailing labels, barcodes, and more. All designed to be used with Plain TeX, DVI output, and no DVI specials.
04:35:00 <zzo38> Many other packages are LaTeX only, PDF only, Type 1 fonts only, e-TeX only, or require external "makeindex" program, DVI specials, SVG, PostScript, or something else. So now I make the one that does not require anything special.
05:10:58 <calamari> oh crap :( guess that means my cell phone bill is going up lol
05:22:55 -!- pikhq has joined.
05:25:40 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
05:35:09 -!- asiekierka has joined.
06:10:03 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
06:19:42 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:34:05 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
06:35:04 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
07:21:01 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:32:38 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving).
08:08:11 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
08:17:29 -!- cheater99 has joined.
08:18:21 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
08:21:21 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined.
08:24:24 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
08:32:09 -!- augur has joined.
08:35:28 -!- azaq23 has joined.
08:40:26 -!- ais523 has joined.
09:08:34 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
09:13:27 -!- jcp has joined.
09:19:45 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
09:21:08 -!- pikhq has joined.
10:39:59 -!- oerjan has joined.
10:41:36 * oerjan laughs at today's xkcd hovertext
10:44:02 <oerjan> SORRY I CANNOT HEAR YOU
11:14:01 -!- cheater00 has joined.
11:15:20 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
11:27:26 -!- iconmaster_ has joined.
11:30:25 -!- iconmaster_ has quit (Client Quit).
11:44:08 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
11:50:03 -!- Slereah has joined.
11:56:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
11:59:12 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:04:13 <ais523> oerjan: today's xkcd is quite good generally
12:05:32 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
12:06:07 -!- sftp has joined.
12:06:44 -!- variable has joined.
12:14:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:18:20 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:23:05 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
12:24:47 -!- lifthrasiir has joined.
12:25:47 <Vorpal> ais523, hm talking of today's xkcd. Is there any special significance to the year 2017? As opposed to any other ones in the near future
12:26:11 <ais523> but 6 years from now is about the right timespan for the joke to work
12:26:17 <ais523> maybe 5 or 7 would have worked too
12:26:43 <Vorpal> just thought it might be some movie reference or such
12:27:22 -!- Slereah has quit.
12:28:18 <fizzie> There's a solar eclipse, that's all I can think of. The year-to-reference would have probably been 2012, but that's both overdone and a bit too soon.
12:28:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, where is that eclipse?
12:29:10 <fizzie> Them Americans have it, I think.
12:30:01 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_eclipse_of_August_21,_2017
12:30:07 <fizzie> Goes right through North America there.
12:31:00 <Vorpal> shouldn't that page have one of those "this article is about an upcoming event" kind of boilerplate
12:31:10 <Vorpal> I seem to remember wikipedia has that variant as well
12:32:47 <ais523> Vorpal: that's basically put there in order to prevent idiots writing things into the article that makes no sense
12:34:04 <Vorpal> ais523, oh? Such as wrong tense?
12:34:42 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Future seems to have been deleted.
12:34:48 <ais523> no, it's mostly to stop people writing vandalism about future events as if they've already happened/already known, then other people believing it as it's Wikipedia
12:34:51 <ais523> I'm not sure how often that happens
12:35:47 <ais523> deleted three times, but first time seems to be via WP:CENT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Centralized_discussion/Deprecating_%22Future%22_templates
12:36:11 <ais523> (not that WP:CENT is actually a deletion process, but I don't think anyone cares; it's heavier-weight than most deletion processes, so probably falls under IAR)
12:37:31 <Vorpal> "then other people believing it as it's Wikipedia" <-- it is strange that happens really
12:37:49 <Vorpal> ais523, oha and what is IAR?
12:38:02 <ais523> there are huge debates on how to actually interpret it
12:38:08 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
12:38:29 <Vorpal> ais523, presumably you could just ignore IAR and be done with it
12:39:08 <ais523> although my interpretation is more or less that a) if nobody disagrees with an action, you can do it regardless of what policy says (WP:BOLD's along those lines, too); b) the spirit of the rules are more important than the letter; c) documented rules lag behind accepted practice (i.e. it becomes accepted /then/ it's documented), so it's OK to break an old rule if Wikipedia has moved on since
12:39:10 <Vorpal> but more seriously, isn't it to avoid getting stuck on rules when they are clearly suggesting a bad/stupid way forward?
12:40:01 <ais523> that's a special case, but an important one
12:40:28 <ais523> in the case here, "you can delete a page via WP:CENT even though it isn't a deletion process" seems a perfectly valid use of IAR
12:40:49 <ais523> given that it sort-of trumps other processes, in that it would be a reasonable way to change deletion process
12:41:53 <ais523> anyway, tl;dr of the CENT discussion about {{future}}: it was meant to be a warning that the page was being heavily edited as details came out, but wasn't actually being used that way
12:42:45 <fizzie> ais523: There was a {{future}} in the article "29th century".
12:42:50 <ais523> and the way it was being used was entirely useless
12:42:56 <ais523> fizzie: yes, that's a good example
12:43:11 <ais523> unlikely to have more details coming out rapidly, causing a flurry of edits, on that example!
12:45:30 <Vorpal> the mere existence of that article is pretty ridiculous
12:46:01 <ais523> well, isn't the 29th century more notable than (insert favourite example of niche Wikipedia article here)?
12:51:08 <fizzie> "The CPR [Canadian Pacific Railway] obtained a 999-year lease on the O&Q [Ontario and Quebeck Railway] on January 4, 1884. -- The CPR also leased the New Brunswick Railway in 1890 for 990 years, --" Why exactly a bit less than thousand years (as opposed to some other ludicrous number), I wonder.
12:51:38 <ais523> because 1000 would have looked too large, it's the same principle as charging £9.99 in shops
12:51:48 <fizzie> "A 999-year lease is, under historic common law, essentially a nominal lease of property for life. The lease locations are mainly in Britain, her former colonies and Commonwealth. The longest possible term of a lease of real property is legally a 99-year lease."
12:51:59 <fizzie> Figures that there is an article for "999-year lease" specifically.
12:53:31 <fizzie> (Not a *good* article, though.)
13:08:27 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
13:18:13 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
13:23:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
13:23:14 -!- glogbot has joined.
13:27:38 <Gregor> Why can't these guys stay pinged in.
13:33:24 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
13:34:40 <Vorpal> Gregor, what is glogbot?
13:39:09 <Gregor> In no way has it "replaced" optbot, since it doesn't serve the same function >_>
13:42:13 <Vorpal> Gregor, there is a typo in the topic. Might be intentional
13:42:50 <Vorpal> oh wait, PH set the topic
13:42:52 <Gregor> For some reason PH decided that Roman...ism and socialism are the same thing.
13:43:08 <Vorpal> "GLORIOVS" yeah, how strange
13:46:04 <Gregor> Anyway, glogbot is exactly what it sounds like.
13:46:20 <Vorpal> Gregor, a gnu or gnome logging bot :P
13:46:24 <ais523> that's not a typo in ancient Latin, except it probably isn't a real word in ancient Latin
13:47:34 <Vorpal> Gregor, Gregor Compiler Collection
13:47:48 <Vorpal> out of your various languages
13:48:30 <ais523> it'd be egologbot if it were Gregor's
13:48:44 <Vorpal> oh true, so it must be gnu then
13:48:48 <ais523> (note: assertion may contradict reality)
13:49:41 <Gregor> "ego" is for esorelated things.
13:50:05 <ais523> and a #esoteric logbot isn't esorelated?
13:50:43 <Gregor> It's a general-purpose logbot that just so happens to be being used on #esoteric .
13:52:06 <ais523> meanwhile: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/03/identifying_photocopy_machine.html
13:52:10 <ais523> non-eso, but pretty funny
13:52:15 <ais523> especially if you like silly legal situations
13:52:40 <ais523> it's basically a case where someone tried to answer a question about if there was a photocopier in an office, by repeatedly asking the questioning lawyer to define a photocopier
13:57:05 <Vorpal> <ais523> meanwhile: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/03/identifying_photocopy_machine.html <-- wtf
13:57:08 <Vorpal> ais523, is that a joke?
13:57:55 <ais523> it's not even particularly silly by the standards of typical court cases
13:58:02 <ais523> but it makes a change from SCO
13:59:07 <Vorpal> ais523, SCO is still going at it?
13:59:15 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
13:59:21 <ais523> you'd expect them to have stopped?
13:59:40 <ais523> they recently managed to get a bankruptcy judge to approve them selling all their assets but only a very small number of liabities
13:59:47 <ais523> also, they're bankrupt on paper, again
14:00:12 <ais523> in terms of technically owning a negative amount of cash, not that that seems impossible in bankruptcy court as you can delay payments
14:00:24 <ais523> (they're legally bankrupt already, in that they declared bankruptcy years ago now)
14:00:36 <Gregor> ais523: lololol @ "Xerox"
14:00:37 <Vorpal> ais523, aren't there time limits on that sort of stuff
14:00:50 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, and they've been extended/broken repeatedly
14:01:01 -!- pikhq has joined.
14:01:09 <Vorpal> ais523, aren't there limits on how many times an extension can be granted?
14:01:22 <ais523> Gregor: I can't figure out if the person in question was a) an idiot, b) trolling, c) serious
14:01:34 <ais523> although b) would be epic
14:01:49 <ais523> Vorpal: the CEO of the company was removed and replaced with a bankrupcy-court-appointed trustee
14:01:59 <ais523> who kept on doing exactly the same thing the removed CEO had been doing
14:02:06 <Vorpal> ais523, that sounds very strange
14:02:22 <ais523> Vorpal: this is /SCO/ we're talking about
14:02:38 <Gregor> So, who would find a glogbot "tail" mode useful? (That is, when you join it sends you in a NOTICE the last few messages on the channel)
14:02:55 <Gregor> I'm not sure whether it's worth implementing, since it has some risk of flooding itself into oblivion :P
14:03:00 <Vorpal> ais523, don't they realize it must be futile to continue?
14:03:03 <ais523> I'd find that vaguely useful, although not sufficiently useful to insist someone else should implement it
14:03:06 <ais523> it should be opt-in, at least
14:03:09 <ais523> that'll help to reduce flooding
14:03:14 <Gregor> ais523: Of course opt-in
14:03:37 <ais523> it seems futile from the point of view of saving SCO, but that doesn't seem to be the actual objective
14:03:44 <ais523> and it may be accomplishing whatever the actual objective is quite well
14:03:47 <Vorpal> ais523, what would the objective be then
14:04:10 <ais523> although there's enough money moving around, that someone probably ends up benefiting as a result
14:04:23 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure who, as I lost track
14:04:33 -!- FireFly has joined.
14:04:39 <fizzie> At least the bankruptcy lawyers seem to be being paid.
14:04:45 -!- cheater- has joined.
14:05:00 <Vorpal> didn't they have a negative amount of money?
14:05:19 <Vorpal> so where would they get money from, surely lending it would be hard for them...
14:05:43 <ais523> well, there have been people lending them money, perhaps surprisingly
14:06:18 <fizzie> They did also have some positive money at the beginning of the banruptcy process. At least if you don't count the amount they owe to Novell.
14:06:48 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
14:06:53 <ais523> it's not quite "owe", it was found that the money was "converted" from Novell, so it technically owns to Novell, just it's currently in SCO's ownership
14:07:04 <ais523> except it isn't, because they already spent it
14:07:25 <Vorpal> what does that mean in this context
14:07:38 <ais523> Vorpal: it's a legal term, I'm not quite sure what it means exactly, but it seems to have a similar meaning to "stolen", or perhaps "defrauded"
14:07:51 <fizzie> I think Ocean Park Advisors have been billing them for about $30000/month for 16 months now.
14:08:33 <fizzie> Mostly for planning and implementing the mythical "restructuring plan".
14:09:46 <Gregor> `addquote <Vorpal> ais523, "converted"? what does that mean in this context <ais523> Vorpal: it's a legal term, I'm not quite sure what it means exactly, but it seems to have a similar meaning to "stolen", or perhaps "defrauded"
14:09:48 <HackEgo> 337) <Vorpal> ais523, "converted"? what does that mean in this context <ais523> Vorpal: it's a legal term, I'm not quite sure what it means exactly, but it seems to have a similar meaning to "stolen", or perhaps "defrauded"
14:10:00 <Vorpal> Gregor, why was that quote-worthy?
14:11:10 <Gregor> Because lawl with emphasis on "law"
14:11:24 <fizzie> (The $30k figure was based on a quick look at the recent bills; seems that the early ones were rather larger, $196,002.50 for the first six weeks and so.)
14:11:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, the chances of those ever being repaid seems to be about zero?
14:11:55 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:12:21 <fizzie> No, I think those have been paid, more or less; which is probably one of the reasons why SCO no longer has any of the money it was loaned.
14:12:35 <Gregor> Clearly SCO has done quite well for themselves.
14:13:17 <ais523> also, the loan was secured against everything the company owned, more or less
14:13:31 <ais523> so if it defaults, I'm not entirely sure what will happen, but it could be quite interesting
14:13:45 -!- variable has joined.
14:13:48 <fizzie> Actually isn't today Novell's last day to appeal for the UnXis sale?
14:13:55 <ais523> (bonus points if SCO manages to get multiple loans secured against the same assets)
14:14:05 <ais523> do you think they'll appeal?
14:15:22 <fizzie> I would have guessed "yes" if it was just Novell, but I don't know how much the Novell/Attachmate thing changes the matter.
14:18:34 <fizzie> Of course I haven't been following the whole thing very closely, just read the groklaw posts; those make the sale sound pretty dubious indeed.
14:20:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:21:31 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:21:51 <ais523> hmm, I'm dealing with a system that uses 0 for true, non-0 for false
14:22:12 <ais523> what value should I use, concretely, for false? atm I'm doing -1 as it's easy to write as "not true" in two's complement
14:22:22 <ais523> (also, what value should I use for FILE_NOT_FOUND?)
14:28:52 <Gregor> You have a language/environment where 0 is true, and also you have a bitwise not operator?
14:30:26 <ais523> no, it's what happens when mathematicians try to project their idealized views on programming languages into the real world
14:30:37 <ais523> besides, this is #esoteric, is having 0 for true and bitwise-not /that/ bad?
14:31:58 <oklopol> 0 is used as true in math?
14:32:16 <ais523> and the language just chose the "wrong" mapping
14:32:19 <oklopol> well 1 is often used as true, and 0 as false
14:32:47 <oklopol> actually i used 1 as true, 0 as false around 15 minutes ago
14:36:29 <oklopol> but then again i suppose i could've just not thought of the 1 as true
14:37:07 <cheater-> rofl, as if web 2.0 wasn't bad enough.. now i have found a company which says they're an expert in Enterprise 2.0.
14:37:40 <cheater-> any sort of job you don't want to do :D
14:38:48 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
14:39:52 <oklopol> it's not very hard to find a job i don't want to do
14:40:39 <ais523> how many of those jobs could you successfully apply for, though/
14:41:19 <oklopol> i'm sure i could get any job i wanted to by just going to the interview and telling them i'm the awesome
14:52:37 <cheater-> aww, i just called someone and they told me off for calling them in the office
14:55:22 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
14:56:10 -!- FireFly has joined.
14:58:54 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
15:05:58 -!- copumpkin has joined.
15:08:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:11:56 -!- olsner has joined.
15:17:18 <ais523> gah, the instructions for these pills don't have a "what to do if you need eight tries to swallow them whole and manage to spit half a bottle of water onto the floor in the process"
15:17:49 <ais523> I often have trouble with the mechanical aspects of getting a pill down my throat, but that was just ridiculous
15:17:52 <ais523> also, my trousers are wet now
15:18:20 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
15:18:27 -!- cheater00 has joined.
15:19:47 <ais523> well, I can only really practice once every eight hours
15:19:59 <oklopol> you can practise swallowing other things tho
15:20:05 <ais523> and I fear dire things might happen to me if I screw up even worse than that, e.g. biting it in half by mistake
15:20:12 <ais523> and there are not many things around designed to be swallowed whole
15:20:49 <ais523> people swallow those whole?
15:20:54 <ais523> I fear I'd choke if I tried, they seem rather large
15:21:21 <oklopol> but i doubt it's very hard
15:23:07 <Gregor> http://google.com/search?q=learn+to+deep+throat THERE YA GO
15:23:21 <oklopol> deep throating isn't very hard either
15:23:25 <ais523> Gregor: I doubt that link's going to turn up a lot of relevant stuff, even with safesearch on
15:23:32 <Gregor> elliott: THIS IS WHY PEOPLE THINK HE'S GAY
15:24:05 <oklopol> you can control most reflexes with a bit of practise, but i can't seem to get autoblinking off no matter what i do
15:24:20 <oklopol> i spent hours and hours on this last summer
15:24:28 <ais523> this is more an antireflex
15:24:41 <ais523> in the end, I managed it this time by reaching all the way back into my mouth and physically inserting the pill there
15:24:56 <ais523> both it and my mouth were so wet after the previous failures that it actually fell right down
15:25:41 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
15:25:47 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
15:26:12 <oklopol> any of you tried drinking without swallowing? that would be a neat thing to learn, but since you can die of it afaik, i haven't had the guts to go trial and error
15:26:16 <Gregor> <ais523> in the end, I managed it this time by reaching all the way back into my mouth and physically inserting the [censored] there <ais523> both it and my mouth were so wet after the previous failures that it actually fell right down <oklopol> :P
15:26:42 <ais523> oklopol: a sort of controlled drowning?
15:27:21 <oklopol> the liquid goes in your stomach
15:27:50 <ais523> I know, I just wanted to say "controlled drowning"
15:28:02 <Gregor> You should waterboard yourself.
15:28:05 <oklopol> how that's guaranteed, i don't know, i imagine if you just go for it, you prolly either succeed, or nothing goes down.
15:28:08 <Gregor> Seems like the ideal solution.
15:28:21 <oklopol> i never quite got how waterboarding could be dangerous
15:28:36 <ais523> I don't think it's physically dangerous, more it's the psychological issues
15:28:42 <oklopol> would be nice to try that some time, but the serious brain injury part puts me off a bit
15:29:23 <ais523> although I imagine waterboaring /yourself/ would cause different issues than someone else doing it to you
15:29:25 <oklopol> but drowning sounds like an interesting experience
15:29:52 <Gregor> What was it they did on tosh.0, orange-juice-boarding or something
15:30:00 -!- Slereah has joined.
15:30:03 <ais523> presumably triggering the body's drown reflex could be dangerous, too
15:30:31 <Gregor> Does the body actually have a "drowning" reflex per se?
15:30:31 <ais523> note that there's also a case where someone consented to be waterboarded, and afterwards decided it was life-runing torture despite being consented to and sued
15:30:51 <oklopol> it's a horrible thought that i have this whole set of drowning related feelings built in, and i never get to experience them
15:30:53 <ais523> freedivers learn to trigger it deliberately
15:31:05 <ais523> and use it to hold their breath for several minutes at a time
15:31:47 <ais523> perhaps oklopol could learn to do that too
15:31:47 <ais523> `addquote <oklopol> it's a horrible thought that i have this whole set of drowning related feelings built in, and i never get to experience them
15:31:48 <HackEgo> 338) <oklopol> it's a horrible thought that i have this whole set of drowning related feelings built in, and i never get to experience them
15:32:31 <ais523> well, humans have an ability that can only be triggered unconciously to use all their muscle fibers at once (typically they only use about 1/6 or so, because using more does permanent damage)
15:32:56 <ais523> and people who are panicking sufficiently sometimes do it and do really implausible things as a result, like lifting trees
15:33:11 <ais523> (presumably, which aren't attached to the ground at the time, and are quite large, or it wouldn't be implausible)
15:33:50 <oklopol> yeah because lifting trees that are attached to the ground isn't hard at all
15:34:00 <ais523> well, it would be impressive
15:34:06 <ais523> but more implausible than I'm easily willing to consider
15:34:12 <oklopol> the roots go "hey cool i get to see the sun" and help you lift it
15:34:44 <ais523> but that's not what roots are /for/
15:34:46 <Gregor> It's still alive at that point, so it's a willing participant.
15:34:50 <Gregor> It just climbs out of the ground.
15:35:07 <ais523> it's like your heart deciding it wants to do some thinking for a bit, and swapping places with your brain
15:35:17 <ais523> which is a nice metaphor, but seems unlikely if taken literally
15:35:40 <Gregor> Hormones can cause behavior, and are carried in the blood :P
15:36:10 <oklopol> yeah, suddenly you start beating your head against the wall every second or so. and spout fluids everywhere.
15:37:01 <oklopol> so how about someone who can actually lift an incredible amount of shit
15:37:15 <oklopol> if their dog is sick and they get all hulk
15:37:30 <oklopol> or do they already use more than the healthy amount of their muscles
15:38:08 <Gregor> So, to be perfectly clear ...
15:38:18 <Gregor> Their dog usually produces like 75lb turds
15:38:26 <Gregor> Which they carry to the bin with no effort at all
15:38:44 <oklopol> because it's an interesting concept otherwise: you train doing X all your life, and you actually had the theoretical possibility of doing X even better, before you even started learning it
15:38:45 <Gregor> Their dog is now sick and has filled their entire house with dark-matter shit.
15:39:26 <oklopol> yeah that's roughly what i meant
15:39:37 <ais523> I'm not sure how it works with athletes
15:40:27 <ais523> I think possibly the training strengthens their muscles so they can safely use a larger proportion
15:41:51 <oklopol> also often they sniff that what's that stuff before lifting stuff
15:42:42 -!- asiekierka has joined.
15:44:14 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how easy it would be to statistically predict who said a given sentence based on things like word choice and order?
15:44:27 <ais523> it's a game we used to play with optbot sometimes last time it was round here
15:44:33 <ais523> and seems relatively automatable
15:45:22 <oklopol> i can usually spot my own rather easily, i'm usually the ones that make me laugh
15:45:58 <fungot> Gregor: a linear algebra course and fnord by reading euclid. but now it is
15:46:27 <Gregor> fungot: ENTERTAIN US MORE!
15:46:28 <fungot> Gregor: lack of sensible fnord. then you can choose from major and minor alternatively is kinda cool right mabye you should put in a good language for teaching purposes, it seems
15:46:51 <ais523> "The copied elements that contain instructions, such as BREAD and CPIO, might perhaps be trade secrets, but Defendants' experts have argued persuasively that these instructions are either in the public domain or otherwise exempt."
15:48:05 <ais523> Gregor: it's a quote from the BSD court case (where it was determined that BSD UNIX wasn't a trade secret)
15:48:21 <ais523> but I thought cpio was a tar competitor, and who calls an instruction BREAD?
15:48:30 <Gregor> Yeah, what's BREAD X-D
15:50:14 <fizzie> ais523: I did do some authorship attribution experiments on #esoteric logs (using code we did for guessing book authors on a "statistical NLP" course); given a large enough sample it did reasonable, despite being bog-stupid, but single comments not so well.
15:50:37 <fizzie> (Unsurprising since the features were word-length statistics and such.)
15:51:45 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.13: 16k to Taiwan, 1k to Indonesia, 640k(512k+128k)+1280k(1M+256k)+512k+128k to China, 4k+2k+256+/48 to India, 4k to Vietnam, 4k to Australia, 256 to Philippines.
15:51:46 <fizzie> Some author-discriminating features (attribution/punctuation styles and such) would probably help.
15:51:52 <Gregor> fizzie: Why are you making fun of bogs?
15:52:16 <fizzie> Gregor: 'Cause they're not so smart.
15:52:37 <Gregor> fizzie: I've got a bog that could beat you in Chinese Checkers seven times out of twelve!
15:53:13 <fizzie> That's not hard: even I can beat myself that often.
15:53:27 <Gregor> Yeah, I'll bet you "beat" yourself that often.
15:54:28 <Ilari> Pretty quiet day there. Only 7% of their pool gone in single day.
15:54:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
15:54:47 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:57:21 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
15:57:36 <oklopol> every time anyone says anything
15:57:41 <oklopol> it tells who it thinks said it
15:58:04 <Gregor> I shall implement it, and call it AnnoyingSpammerBot
15:58:15 <oklopol> it could do it in pm if you've put that feature on
15:58:31 <oklopol> and sometimes on the channel if it's REALLY sure
15:58:31 <Gregor> It could do it in CTCP CHAT :P
15:58:47 <oklopol> it sends you a text message
15:58:55 <Gregor> <oklopol> hew how about <ReallyAnnoyingBot> oklopol said that!
15:59:44 <oklopol> hey seriously, this has to happen
15:59:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:05:10 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined.
16:05:20 <Vorpal> oklopol, Gregor: should it just look at the nick or should it instead do some heuristic on the text? Matching writing style I mean
16:05:31 <oklopol> or Gregor, if he has some algo for it easily handable
16:05:36 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:05:41 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:05:46 <oklopol> Vorpal: what do you think lol
16:05:50 -!- quintopia has joined.
16:06:15 <fizzie> oklopol: Gregor is more of a guy who does; I'm both busy and in a bus, and the other assorted excuses.
16:06:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:06:52 <oklopol> fizzie: those "excuses" are just an excuse
16:07:22 <fizzie> Oh no, I've become invisible?
16:08:12 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:24:14 -!- ais523_ has joined.
16:25:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:26:31 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
16:27:19 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
16:34:22 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined.
16:36:24 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
16:43:55 -!- boily has joined.
16:47:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:48:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
16:49:37 -!- boily has quit (Quit: leaving).
16:52:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:52:36 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:57:57 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:59:38 -!- copumpkin has joined.
17:01:13 -!- cal153 has joined.
17:03:35 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:19:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Silly syntax based on something I read on Reddit: \lambda x.expr = \frac{expr}{x}
17:20:26 <Gregor> What sort of bastard half child of Lambda Calculus is this?
17:21:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it's based on the classic exam fail of thinking cos x/x = cos.
17:22:46 -!- azaq23 has joined.
17:24:49 -!- cheater99 has joined.
17:26:09 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:36:06 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:36:15 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:00:25 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:00:40 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:06:01 <Ilari> As scale of things going on with APNIC: 14 more days like today will deplete APNIC. And what happened today wasn't so extraordinary: 3 of 5 business days last week saw much greater activity.
18:13:51 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:21:21 -!- pumpkin has joined.
18:24:39 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:24:49 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:37:10 -!- BOI-ish has joined.
18:39:17 -!- BOI-ish has left ("ciao.").
18:43:25 -!- sftp has joined.
18:43:47 <Ilari> Last week: 0.76 blocks gone. Oh, and there are only 1.71 left.
18:44:52 <Ilari> Also, starting to fragment: The largest free block is 1M (which there is only 1 of).
18:46:08 <Ilari> 28 748 288 addresses in 2 287 blocks.
18:47:39 <Ilari> (Not counting 103.0/8)
18:49:17 <Ilari> Logaritmic size: /7.223
18:50:17 <Ilari> Up from /7.120 before today. So +0.103.
18:50:22 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
18:57:06 -!- cpressey has joined.
18:58:12 <cpressey> Deewiant: you know what would be a really nice addition to the Mycology readme? A copy of the complete expected output for a compliant interpreter.
18:58:21 <ais523> isn't it really easy to allocate blocks in a way that avoids fragmentation, as long as they aren't expanded later?
18:58:38 <ais523> cpressey: there's a bunch of UNDEFs, so you couldn't just use diff
18:59:49 <Ilari> Huh. Linux sure nowadays has lots of kernel threads: 98 for me.
19:00:14 <cpressey> ais523: I realize that. Though now that you mention it, I'm not sure why undefined cases are even being tested.
19:00:39 <ais523> it's to inform the user of what the case does
19:00:56 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
19:01:23 <cpressey> That's a nice thought, but it's not a test.
19:01:25 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:03:04 <ais523> well, it /is/ a test, isn't it?
19:05:20 <cpressey> Not if a test either passes or fails.
19:20:15 <cpressey> Just saying, there's an argument for putting undefined-behavior-probing in other source file(s), and not mixing them into an otherwise unambiguous test suite.
19:21:17 <cpressey> And for my purposes, I can just download a copy of cfunge and see its output, since it doesn't fail out anywhere according to the results page. Hopefully easier than installing D and cmake and such :)
19:25:52 <cpressey> Sure, except for the "checking it out using yet another different source-control tool" part. I am not at all sure bazaar > D
19:28:04 <Gregor> They're sort of both hell.
19:46:44 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:49:35 -!- cheater- has joined.
20:02:52 <cpressey> There is something deeply wack with FBBI's stack management routines. This is not news. What is news is, I think I see what it is.
20:03:38 <cpressey> Also, why does this coffee taste like whole wheat? That's very disturbing.
20:05:11 <pikhq_> Perhaps it's actually mugicha (麦茶)?
20:06:28 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:06:47 <oerjan> 17:22:24: * Phantom_Hoover wonders what algebraic structures are preserved.
20:06:47 <oerjan> 17:22:46: * azaq23 has joined #esoteric.
20:07:04 <oerjan> Gregor: i think it would be a good idea not to use * for non-emotes, it's confusing
20:07:33 * pikhq_ thinks Gregor should use an irssi-esque output format
20:07:51 <pikhq_> Which would entail only using * for emotes.
20:08:07 <pikhq_> -!- for non-PRIVMSG stuff.
20:08:58 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: He also has logs that are essentially a filtered dump of raw IRC traffic, with times prepended.
20:14:23 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:16:26 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:22:13 -!- rapido has joined.
20:25:59 * cheater- sets mode #esoteric +b oklopol
20:26:31 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:27:38 <rapido> are there an interesting 'collection oriented' language that is not apl/j/k?
20:27:51 -!- augur has joined.
20:29:19 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
20:29:48 <rapido> is there something like 'map theory'? I know there is something like 'array theory'
20:32:37 <rapido> array theory: http://www.nial.com/ArrayTheory.html
20:33:16 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
20:33:20 <rapido> ah found something: http://www.mangust.dk/skalberg/papers/gkli-slides1.pdf
20:33:30 <rapido> map theory: http://www.mangust.dk/skalberg/papers/gkli-slides1.pdf
20:35:14 <rapido> wouldn't it be nice to have a map oriented language?
20:35:32 <rapido> everything is a map - data and code
20:36:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:37:18 <rapido> concrete map: [0=0;1=1;2=4;3=9]
20:37:20 <Gregor> If somebody wants to make an HTMLifier, I will not argue with them :P
20:38:03 <rapido> Phantom_Hoover: yes, that's one way of phrasing it
20:38:26 <Gregor> I thought you meant like a map /operation/, not a map /datatype/
20:38:28 <rapido> total functions would be nice
20:38:42 <Gregor> It's turtles (maps) all the way down.
20:39:27 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
20:39:46 <rapido> this would be a lazy map: [x<-[0..10000000];x*x]
20:40:41 <rapido> still finite because the domain is finite
20:41:17 <Gregor> That looks more like a lazy list to me.
20:42:00 <rapido> Gregor: ok, i haven't really settled for a notation
20:42:30 <Gregor> If it's just a notation issue, then I don't understand what that means X-P
20:43:39 <rapido> domain: 0..10000000 : range: x*x
20:44:09 <rapido> Phantom_Hoover: yes - thanks
20:45:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:45:34 -!- augur has joined.
20:47:09 <rapido> the domain (keys) and range (values) can be maps too.
20:47:48 <rapido> In fact, literals are maps in disguise
20:48:02 <rapido> there should be only maps!
20:51:23 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, OK, I wasn't getting the syntax.
20:51:23 <rapido> I've done something similar with enchilada- but i like to be more restrictive than enchilada (i.e. finitie maps only)
20:51:49 <Phantom_Hoover> rapido, so basically everything is a function from a finite sense?
20:54:29 -!- calamari has joined.
20:54:42 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.uclassify.com/browse/uClassify/GenderAnalyzer_v5
20:55:46 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i don't see why that makes it non-TC.
20:56:39 <rapido> Phantom_Hoover: say that you have an recursive function that doesn't terminate
20:57:38 <rapido> now let's imagine an interpreter that takes this same recursive function, together with a user-defined 'number of interpreter steps'
20:57:43 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Seems that all of Hemingway's writing would be classed as female, then.
20:57:46 <oerjan> you could still do cons lists.
20:57:51 <pikhq_> And Hemingway is 200% male.
20:58:09 <rapido> when the interpreter reaches the 'number of interpreter steps' it terminates
20:58:29 <oerjan> [0=1; 1=[0=2; 1=[0=3; 1=[0=4; 1=[0=5; 1=[0=6; 1=
20:59:30 <rapido> oerjan: consing can be done - nice observation
21:00:20 <cpressey> "That this Funge has 80 dimensions"
21:03:30 <cpressey> I'm just impressed that I got it to get that far. I had to rewrite a good chunk of the stack routines. They were confused about when they were supposed to allocate new memory for a stack header versus when that memory was already allocated for them.
21:05:11 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not. FBBI thinks it interprets an 80-dimensional funge. When you ask it. With 'y'.
21:06:03 <rapido> question: how would you give a unique name to a arbitrary block of bytes without hashing (=possible collisions) and without using a central service (thing p2p)
21:07:06 <rapido> oh - the same block of bytes should map always return the same name
21:08:33 <cpressey> rapido: I don't think it's possible.
21:09:11 <cpressey> Well, a perfect hash function would do it. But that's hashing.
21:09:41 <cpressey> And if the blocks are truly arbitrary, the only perfect hash function is identity :)
21:10:27 <ais523> cpressey: incorrect, rot13 is also a perfect hash function
21:10:28 <rapido> cpressey: ok, what about a central service which just increases a counter for each new block that has been issued?
21:10:35 <ais523> as are many compression algorithms
21:10:48 <pikhq_> Any function with an inverse, really.
21:11:38 <rapido> what if we scale the central naming service to log(n) naming services - with n being the number of blocks issued?
21:12:23 <rapido> dns scales pretty good
21:12:50 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to woroyo.
21:15:23 <cpressey> ais523: fine -- the only pefect hash functions are permutations
21:15:37 <ais523> gzip is a permutation?
21:16:08 <cheater-> LOL JAVA: http://www.nupxl.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Fail-and-Funny-Names-batman-bin-suparman.jpg
21:17:11 <pikhq_> cpressey: There's a large class of bijective functions.
21:17:28 <pikhq_> Some of them aren't, strictly speaking, permutations.
21:17:46 <cpressey> Yes, but I'm not allowed to speak the truth.
21:18:12 <pikhq_> Which clearly means that you are permitted to speak the truth, but opt not to.
21:18:16 <rapido> cpressey: i want to achieve (function) memoization - not only within one instance of running program - but globally
21:18:44 <pikhq_> rapido: Universal memoization is not as good an idea as you may think.
21:18:57 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:19:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, shouldn't compressing a compressed file increase its size?
21:20:03 <rapido> pikhq_: it doesn't need to be persistent always - just the most used functions (structures)
21:20:05 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Not *necessarily*.
21:20:29 <pikhq_> rapido: Automatic memoization is a *hard* problem.
21:20:38 -!- impomatic has joined.
21:20:40 <oklopol> pikhq_: isn't a bijection called a permutation if the set is infinite?
21:20:49 <variable> Phantom_Hoover: compressing a compressed file may not always be possible
21:20:54 <rapido> pikhq_: 'memoization is a *hard* problem' - i like that!
21:21:06 <variable> one still need to provide a minimum amount of information
21:21:12 <Phantom_Hoover> variable, it arguably *shouldn't* be possible given a perfect compression algorithm.
21:21:24 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: There's no such thing.
21:21:34 <pikhq_> rapido: At least as hard as parallel computing.
21:21:47 <rapido> pikhq_: i'm the author of enchilada - i have done some 'experiments' on the subject.
21:21:50 <variable> Phantom_Hoover: Information theory discuses the absolute minimums and maximums as relate to compression
21:21:59 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: A "perfect" compression algorithm is a bijective mapping from a larger set to a smaller set.
21:22:04 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Which is of course impossible.
21:22:07 <cheater-> oklopol: a bijection is called a permutation if the set is FINITE
21:22:24 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, hence I'm defining "perfect" far more fuzzily.
21:22:25 <cheater-> oklopol: you usually don't talk about permutations of infinite sets
21:22:34 <oklopol> "<rapido> are there an interesting 'collection oriented' language that is not apl/j/k?" <<< toi
21:22:45 * variable is writing a BF compiler using llvm ... should be fun how to use llvm :-)
21:22:52 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: And I define addition to mean fish blue purple flimble boob.
21:22:53 <rapido> i want to get rid of enchilada's cryptographic hashes - but still scale in a distributed setup
21:23:34 <oerjan> oklopol: that's just your toi project
21:23:59 <oklopol> "<variable> oklopol: ?" <<< sometimes one needs to o
21:25:16 <rapido> oklopol: is there a interesting 'collection oriented' language that is also esoteric ;)
21:25:45 <oklopol> "<cheater-> oklopol: a bijection is called a permutation if the set is FINITE" <<< i was not aware of this
21:26:06 <oklopol> at least in group theory, this convention is not always followed
21:26:26 <oklopol> people speak of permutation representations even for infinite gruplers
21:26:26 <cheater-> every bijection of a finite set is always a permutation.
21:26:38 <cheater-> oh ok yeah, but that's a different sense
21:26:54 <cheater-> then you're talking about permutations of structured sets.. groups etc
21:27:20 <oklopol> permutation and bijection are synonyms, but i wouldn't be surprised if people only use it for say up to countable infinity
21:27:51 <oklopol> "<cheater-> then you're talking about permutations of structured sets.. groups etc" <<< no, sets
21:28:06 <cheater-> it wouldn't feel natural to me to call hilbert hotel a permutation for example
21:28:09 <oklopol> permutation representation = representing the group as a set of permutations
21:28:17 <cpressey> a permutation of a set is not itself a set
21:28:26 <cheater-> btw, permutation is only when it's a bijection onto itself
21:28:29 <oklopol> do you mean the thing where everything is shifted
21:28:36 <oklopol> that's an injection but not a bijection
21:28:42 <oklopol> so of course it's not a permutation
21:29:26 <oklopol> i thought the hilbert hotel thing was that you have a sequence indexed by N and you shift it to obtain empty rooms
21:30:09 <oklopol> "<cheater-> btw, permutation is only when it's a bijection onto itself" <<< oh, well this is certainly true
21:30:19 <cheater-> oklopol: imagine Z^2 where (0, c=const) is injected into (c, 0) and (c, v=var) is hilberted vertically
21:30:38 <cheater-> and then the empty space is collapsed
21:31:00 <oklopol> erm, you're describing a random bijection?
21:31:15 <cheater-> i described a bijection which uses the hilbert hotel principle
21:31:30 <cheater-> to show you it's not always an injection
21:32:34 <oerjan> ...a bijection is always injective.
21:32:56 <oklopol> but okay, you don't consider self-bijections of even countable sets worthy of the name permutation, that's all you wanted to say i suppose
21:33:42 <oklopol> oerjan: he meant using hilbert hotel principle doesn't always give you something that is an injection without being surjective
21:33:49 <rapido> don't surjectively inject your hilbert hotel principle into the discussion - please!
21:34:25 <oklopol> oerjan: what if some REALLY complicated and SURPRISING bijections aren't injective?
21:35:18 <pikhq_> oklopol: A bijection is an injection and a surjection, by definition.
21:35:22 <oklopol> and don't just say "they're injective by definition", things don't become true if you define them to be true
21:35:33 <oklopol> yeah pikhq_ takes the easy way out
21:35:54 <pikhq_> Things do become true if we define them to be true.
21:36:08 <pikhq_> At least in the context where it's defined to be true.
21:36:36 <oklopol> oerjan: in the theory of CA, we say G is time symmetric if there is an involution I such that G^(-1) = IGI, is this a common concept elsewhere?
21:37:15 <oklopol> time-symmetry includes lots of things that consist of particles, for instance, it's an interesting concept
21:37:32 <oklopol> but i don't recall seeing anything exactly like it anywhere
21:37:40 <oklopol> then again what the fuck do i know, that's why i'm asking
21:38:09 <oklopol> pikhq_: yeah right, next u gonna say the reals are uncountable lol
21:38:19 <oklopol> oerjan: sorry I is an involution if I^2 = id
21:38:28 <oklopol> where maybe i should've named things differently
21:38:35 <pikhq_> oklopol: No, I'm going to say the naturals are countable.
21:38:36 <cpressey> if you can apply it to a CA, I would be surprised if you couldn't apply it to any semantics, with enough effort
21:38:37 <oerjan> i know but why not just G^(-1) = IGI^-1 ?
21:38:49 <oklopol> oerjan: well sure, that works too
21:39:02 <oerjan> um are they equivalent
21:39:28 <oklopol> what are equivalent exactly?
21:39:38 <oklopol> i read "um they are equivalent"
21:39:47 <oklopol> no i don't see why that definition would be equivalent
21:40:03 <oerjan> well why then did you say "that works too"
21:40:07 <oklopol> but yeah the idea is you conjugate with I to get G's complement
21:40:16 <oklopol> oerjan: sorry, i meant like "well sure, you can generalize it"
21:40:36 <cpressey> oerjan's looks like a conjugate. oklopol's doesn't.
21:40:43 <cpressey> but i don't know from conjugates
21:40:43 <oerjan> i recall using the word anti-conjugate or something like that
21:41:29 <pikhq_> http://www.space.com/7044-moon-apollo-astronauts-customs.html
21:42:01 <oerjan> it popped up in one of the basic theorems we looked at, an orbit equivalence with continuous cocycles is always either a conjugation or an anti-conjugation
21:42:05 <oklopol> oerjan: you don't recall anything with involutions tho?
21:42:07 <rapido> are there any CA formalism that takes previous (N not just the current) world states as input?
21:42:43 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: i've only sometimes talked to him and started pulling his boots and kecks off.") well, i'll call is something different, though.
21:42:58 <oklopol> rapido: no, but those are essentially the same thing
21:43:30 <cheater-> btw, i noticed lately that knuth defined some numbers of negative base
21:43:36 -!- MUILTFN_ has joined.
21:43:40 <cheater-> he also proved some fun properties about them
21:44:05 <oklopol> surely someone has defined such a construction (running n generations simultaneously), for instance the block representation, that is, remembering neighbors in cells, and higher block representations, compressing blocks of n into single symbols, are used a lot in symbolic dynamics
21:44:12 <cpressey> finally, something with which I can describe my bank balance
21:44:39 <cpressey> that was in response to cheater-'s comment, but now I want it to have applied to what oklopol just said
21:44:40 <rapido> oklopol: could such formalism be more powerful - not in a TC sense - but in a 'programming' sense - whatever that means
21:44:53 <variable> is there any variant of brainfruck that lets the user make syscalls?
21:45:02 <oklopol> but i've read more about symbolic dynamics than CA, and in symbolic dynamics, you always just run your CA for exactly one step :)
21:45:12 <oerjan> rapido: mcell has some "ca families" that use memory
21:45:15 <cpressey> variable: I don't know, but, yes
21:45:35 <rapido> oerjan: thanks for the pointer
21:45:37 <oerjan> but in theory that just gives a more compact representation
21:46:18 <oklopol> rapido: well i haven't seen them used, at least
21:46:51 <oklopol> but actually, remembering your neighborhood is essentially just what you described, for the shift CA
21:46:57 <cheater-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_base < haha, a practical use of intercal
21:47:11 <oklopol> so you just generalized one of the key concepts of everything to do with sequences!
21:47:13 <Zwaarddijk> the russians built a computer once that was in balanced ternary
21:47:41 <variable> Zwaarddijk: yes - it was expensive & unstable
21:47:45 <cheater-> wasn't that in the 80s or something
21:47:53 <Zwaarddijk> possibly earlier, but yeah, expensie & unstable.
21:48:04 <variable> cheater-: I already have a practical use of INTERCAL
21:48:21 <variable> whenever someone asks me what language to learn first I have a good answer
21:48:34 <rapido> i like surreal numbers
21:48:51 <rapido> surreal number subsume all numbers
21:49:12 <oerjan> ...well not _all_ numbers
21:49:15 <cheater-> i liked the definition of hyperreal numbers
21:49:25 <oklopol> i don't know their definition
21:49:30 <Gregor> Index finger -> cat nose is like the human<->cat equivalent of a fist-bump.
21:49:50 <cheater-> oklopol: a formal definition of things like dx, dy, 0+, 0-, and so on
21:49:51 <oerjan> the basic definition doesn't include complex numbers, although you can probably complete it
21:50:08 <oerjan> and i doubt it includes p-adics
21:50:08 <oklopol> i also know astrophysics is about space and stuff
21:50:26 <oklopol> and that sex is about doing things under the blanket
21:50:44 <oerjan> although they do indeed include real numbers and transfinite ordinals
21:51:12 <oklopol> well aren't surreals meant to make the real line as long as humanly possible
21:51:37 <oklopol> cheater-: yeah i know the usual definition is based on ultrafilters
21:51:45 <oerjan> oklopol: i'm not sure that was the original motivation...
21:52:05 <oerjan> but including ordinals does pretty much ensure that
21:52:18 <cheater-> http://chc60.fgcu.edu/images/articles/Marczynski.pdf < lol cool!!
21:52:36 <cheater-> RAM made out of acoustically induced mercury. wtf?
21:54:00 <oklopol> "<cheater-> oklopol: that's all u need" <<< you know how fucking annoying it is when people learn about hyperreals and suddenly they can do their calculus without thinking altogether because "hey, this can be made formal, stick that epsilon up your ass!"
21:54:17 -!- rapido has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:54:51 <cheater-> oklopol: is it because you wish you had learnt about it earlier?
21:55:00 <oklopol> because that's like saying "hey, there is a god, therefore i don't have to think about the details"
21:55:08 <oklopol> all they have learned is the term hyperreal
21:55:08 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, what's the problem with using hyperreals over limits?
21:55:21 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: nothing, but no one ever uses them
21:55:37 <cheater-> oklopol: so what you mean is that people learn about hyperreals and suddenly they THINK they can do their calculus without thinking altogether
21:56:55 <oklopol> we bought a whiteboard today
21:56:57 <oerjan> he's finnish. he's sorry by definition.
21:57:52 <oklopol> apparently hyperreals make calculus rather nice and intuitive
21:58:07 -!- rapido has joined.
21:58:29 <cpressey> do they make gabriel's horn make any more sense?
21:58:56 <cpressey> sorry, it's just that you said "nice and intuitive" and "calculus" in the same sentence, and that's the first thing I thought of
21:59:23 <oklopol> oh it's that retarded thing
22:00:39 <Phantom_Hoover> It's the integral from 1 to infinity of 1/x, isn't it?
22:01:12 <cpressey> It's an infinite object with finite volume but infinite surface area, or vice versa, I forget which.
22:01:22 <oklopol> and it's really unintuitive that the infinite line is infinitely long, but that part under it is finite
22:01:59 <oklopol> of course you have to rotate it 2pi to make the "paradox" slightly less ridiculous
22:04:27 <pikhq_> Anyways. Calculus gets some pretty surprising *results*, though many of the concepts actually do make some intuitive sense.
22:04:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Although you can create similarly weird things even easier with fractals.
22:05:53 <rapido> is there a fractal based esoteric language?
22:06:09 <oklopol> (gabriel's horn is not weird)
22:06:10 <cheater-> oklopol: how is it unintuitive?
22:06:16 <rapido> 'living on the edge' which is infinite
22:06:20 <oklopol> cheater-: it's not, i was being sarcastic
22:06:22 <cheater-> oklopol: what about the idea of filling a square with a curve?
22:06:34 <oklopol> cheater-: now that's slightly surprising
22:06:43 <oklopol> at least was for me back in the day
22:07:00 <pikhq_> cheater-: Recent proposal of an alternate circle constant, which is a bit more elegant.
22:07:05 <oklopol> EVERYONE: I'M FINE WITH YOU BEING AMAZED AT HILBERT'S SPACE-FILLING CURVE
22:07:12 <cheater-> well my intuition is that if i take a DIN A4 white page of paper and try to make it completely black with just a ball pen, it will take so much time i will FAIL
22:08:21 <cheater-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Math
22:08:23 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:08:30 <cpressey> oklopol: for your benefit: OH WOW
22:08:31 <cheater-> In the Algebra preface of his book "Precalculus Mathematics in a Nutshell," Professor George F. Simmons wrote that the New Math produced students who had "heard of the commutative law, but did not know the multiplication table."
22:08:37 <Zwaarddijk> Phantom_Hoover: wikipedia agrees with me!
22:08:43 <pikhq> It's just that the ratio of a circle's circumference to its radius makes more sense when we don't care about the diameter.
22:10:14 <rapido> Phantom_Hoover: aaah, a new number system to learn....... how many are there?
22:10:33 <impomatic> http://twitpic.com/3nt8eh/full Hilbert Curve bomber in Core War :-)
22:10:35 <cpressey> < rapido> is there a fractal based esoteric language? <-- I know there were a few that got to the "planning" stage, but I don't know of any complete ones
22:10:43 <oklopol> what the fuck at the "Examples"
22:11:06 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:11:15 <rapido> i don't like infinite/uncountable stuff - but hey - i'' make an exception
22:11:16 <oerjan> <rapido> is there a fractal based esoteric language? <-- i'm pretty sure there was one but i don't remember the name
22:12:18 <cpressey> I know calamari wanted to make one. And I have a half-idea for one. And you could make an argument that anything based on a tree has self-similarity and whatever
22:12:36 <oklopol> the only known proofs of the undecidability of the reversibility of CA in dimensions greater than 1 are based on the hilbert curve
22:13:53 <cpressey> meaning, if, given an arbitrary CA, if you could decide whether it was reversible or not, you could solve the HP?
22:14:15 <cpressey> oklopol: is that what you mean by "the undecidability of the reversibility of CA"?
22:14:28 <oklopol> the reduction is from the tiling problem
22:14:35 <oklopol> that is, given a set of wang tiles, is there a tiling of the plane
22:14:57 <oklopol> cpressey: that's the problem of deciding, given a CA, whether it is invertible
22:15:12 <oklopol> yes, it means exactly that
22:15:23 <oklopol> i thought HP was hilbert curve :D
22:15:39 <cpressey> NEXT TIME I WILL TYPE THE P MORE CLEARLY
22:15:57 <rapido> i like reversible languages: <shameless plug> enchilada is reversible (modulo hash collisions)
22:17:02 <rapido> wasn't the Halting Problem - essentially Hilbert's Problem?
22:17:06 * oklopol is sad that no one asked for details :'(
22:17:30 <oklopol> but at least one of his great problems turned out to be undecidable
22:18:15 <oklopol> the one about diophantine equations
22:18:39 <oklopol> what the exact problem was, i do not remember, however
22:18:46 <oklopol> presumably whether they have solutions
22:21:23 <rapido> what is this with matrix multiplication?- that the most optimum algorithm for general kxk * kxk multiplication is cannot be algorithmically be constructed? (Ω(k^2logk) and this has to do with group theory?
22:23:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:24:09 <rapido> you cannot find an optimal (generic) matrix multiplication algorithm for an arbitrary size of matrices
22:24:36 <cpressey> that somehow seems unsurprising
22:24:50 <oklopol> oerjan: for time-reversibility you get a fun characterization: the time-reversible CA are exactly the ones that are the composition of two involutions
22:24:59 <oklopol> which is of course rather clear from the definition
22:25:00 <rapido> cpressey: i find it rather surprising
22:26:38 <oklopol> i can't really comment on rapido's statement without knowing more details, with my definition of the concepts, that is trivially true: there is always a faster algorithm
22:27:10 <calamari> cpressey: yeah.. I never go a good idea on how to make a fractal language.. I wanted it all to fit together perfectly, rther than feeling tacked on
22:27:21 <cpressey> oklopol: are you referring to the speedup theorem? yeah, but i never understood that one, either
22:28:18 <cpressey> yeah, it's not a simple thing to design well... i certainly haven't gotten very far with my idea, and it's not even a very ambitious interpretation
22:28:33 <rapido> calamari: what should be the ingredients of a good fractal language?
22:28:34 <oklopol> cpressey: the speedup theorem is a rather trivial consequence of the fact we can add arbitrarily many states to our turing machines, and that we can have arbitrarily big alphabets
22:28:52 <calamari> I also felt it needed to provide a bit of data creation.. what I mean is like mandelbrot where it's self-similar but not exactly
22:29:05 <oklopol> just compress the given word to say 1/1000000 of its original size, and do computation 1000000 times faster
22:29:15 <oklopol> because you can fit 1000000 symbols in one cell
22:29:20 <oklopol> by having a bigger alphabet
22:29:36 <rapido> would we recognize pi if it were in base 31?
22:29:43 <cpressey> oh, is that all. i got the impression it was much more profound than that.
22:30:07 <oklopol> i imagine your cs lecturer has succesfully hidden the fact the speedup theorem is fucking obvious by adding tons of details before mentioning the general idea.
22:30:37 <rapido> calamari: because 31 is insignificant :)
22:31:05 <oklopol> cpressey: there are very profound things that have to do with speeding things up, but this is certainly not one of them
22:31:12 <calamari> did they ever figure out how to convert that arbitrary digit algorithm to base 10?
22:31:27 <calamari> or did they decide it wasn't possible?
22:32:30 <oklopol> there's also a speed-up theorem that says something like, if you have a computable function f, then there exists a recursive language L such that for any algorithm you make for it, there exists another algorithm that is f(n) times faster on an input of size n
22:32:45 <oklopol> or something crazy like that
22:33:14 <rapido> hey! - what about memoization of numbers and functions (that produce numbers), irrespective of base?
22:33:28 <oklopol> "<rapido> would we recognize pi if it were in base 31?" <<< no
22:33:56 <oklopol> the bases up to 100424 have been tried. but maybe 100425 does it, you could be a pioneer.
22:34:35 <rapido> what about a complex base?
22:34:53 <oklopol> we actually just had a lecture series about the expansions of constants
22:35:17 <oklopol> i don't think we know anything about pi
22:35:26 <oerjan> calamari: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailey%E2%80%93Borwein%E2%80%93Plouffe_formula#The_search_for_new_equalities is a little confusing
22:35:29 <oklopol> but e has a rather simple continued fraction
22:36:21 <oklopol> sorry i left that kinda open
22:36:39 <oklopol> well whatever, i don't recall the details
22:37:01 <oerjan> ...but pi doesn't have a rather simple simple continued fraction
22:37:17 <rapido> the best compression of pi is to recognize it in disguise.
22:37:17 <calamari> it converges horribly.. but it's simple :)
22:37:48 <oerjan> calamari: note, two "simple" there
22:38:00 <oklopol> it's simple to understand, but it's not simple to work with, at least it doesn't help for the that particular lecturer was using the digits
22:38:05 <oklopol> but let me look up the sequence
22:38:11 <oklopol> maybe i can point out the complication
22:38:19 <calamari> apparently simple is a specific math term
22:38:21 <rapido> i believe you can calculate the n'th digit of pi without calculating it's previous digits?
22:38:32 <calamari> generalized continued fraction
22:38:55 <oerjan> rapido: in binary, what we're talking about is whether you can do it in base 10 or so
22:39:17 <oerjan> that section i linked may or may not imply that base 3 is known...
22:40:13 <cpressey> Deewiant: You'll be happy* to know that FBBI makes it to the end of Mycology, now, with "only" 9 BADs. (*Feel free to substitute the emotion of your choice here.)
22:40:45 <oklopol> i'm finding a very weird continued fraction for pi
22:40:49 <oklopol> i thought it was rather simple
22:41:00 <oklopol> "<oerjan> ...but pi doesn't have a rather simple simple continued fraction"
22:41:48 <rapido> i have an idea for a fractal language
22:42:02 <rapido> when you zoom in to the border
22:42:37 <rapido> the 'result' of your specified program will be more and more accurate
22:43:02 <rapido> but you never reach the 'ultimate' solution of your algorithm
22:43:07 <calamari> rapido: just be sure that it is capable of writing a fractal encryption code unbreakable by the borg.. otherwise the future of humanity is put at risk
22:43:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:43:13 <cpressey> a rather simple simple simple continued fractal
22:43:33 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:43:34 <oklopol> the littlewood conjecture is true for all pairs (e, x), since the continued fraction representation of e contains arbitrarily large numbers
22:43:54 <rapido> btw: the algorithm specification is also nearing the optimal algorithm - but not quite - fractal wise
22:44:53 <rapido> hmmm - let me iterate on that
22:45:08 <cpressey> f(s,n)=s/n+f(-s,n+2) is not a continued fraction, but it is rather simple
22:45:51 <rapido> i know continued fractions (vaguely from uni)
22:46:07 <cpressey> i don't like them. they wet their nests
22:46:08 <oklopol> i know very little about them
22:46:14 <Sgeo> Why hasn't elliott been here in a while?
22:46:26 <oerjan> cpressey: um do you have your precedence right there
22:46:31 <oerjan> Sgeo: he left in a huff
22:47:03 <oerjan> f(s,n)=(s/n)+f(-s,n+2) ?
22:47:21 <cpressey> um... does / not come before +?
22:47:40 <oerjan> not in most PLs i am familiar with
22:47:44 <rapido> are we being concatenative?
22:48:13 <oerjan> it's usually the same precedence as *
22:48:14 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
22:48:18 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
22:48:49 <oerjan> most definitely not in haskell
22:50:00 <oerjan> cpressey: um i thought you were disagreeing with my adding parentheses above?
22:50:20 <oerjan> "comes before" is not a term i can understand clearly
22:50:41 <oerjan> cpressey: because you were talking about continued fractions and they use a/(b+c)
22:50:54 <cpressey> i also said it was not a continued fraction
22:51:07 <rapido> a precedence and parentheses - you don't have that 'problem' with 'concatenate' languages (or apl/k/j)
22:51:27 <cpressey> CONFUSION REIGNS. ALL HAIL THE OMNIGOAT
22:52:22 <cpressey> of course this means we need an esolang where the precedence varies in a difficult-to-predict way
22:52:27 <cpressey> possibly depending on the values involved
22:52:33 <oerjan> cpressey: also in haskell "is evaluated before" is rather distinct from precedence >:)
22:53:25 <Gregor> Uhh, evaluation order is distinct from precedence in many, perhaps most languages.
22:53:27 <rapido> also in haskell 'is evaluated whenever' is rather not related to precedence ;)
22:53:53 <cpressey> it's kind of hard to evaluate what x+3 is without first evaluating x, though
22:53:56 <oerjan> <cpressey> of course this means we need an esolang where the precedence varies in a difficult-to-predict way <-- i think oklopol had something like that
22:53:56 <oklopol> for a while now i've been trying to make a language where every little change in the program changes EVERYTHING, yet somehow you can program in the language
22:54:08 <oklopol> no locality. what i tried to do with toi, but failed
22:54:22 <Gregor> cpressey: But it's easy to evaluate x+y*z in the order x->y->z instead of y->z->x
22:54:24 <rapido> cpressey: i like x to be free - let us be free
22:54:39 <oklopol> in cise, there's no precedence, the first correct parse is used
22:54:56 <rapido> oklopol: you have - reference - to ..... toi ?
22:55:17 <oklopol> rapido: it should be on the wiki
22:55:24 <oerjan> no, oklopol is fundamentally opposed to revealing his languages in anything other than irc babbling
22:55:30 <oklopol> an oklopol quality article, i'm sure
22:55:41 <oklopol> erm, i'm pretty sure toi has an article?
22:56:03 <oerjan> oklopol: DON'T LET YOUR PUNY FACTS GET IN THE WAY OF MY STEREOTYPING
22:56:05 <oklopol> i'm totally a wiki-using grown up nowadays
22:56:18 <oklopol> sorry didn't realize you were a total noob lol :PPPPp
22:56:27 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:56:33 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
22:56:56 <rapido> Toi (the name means nothing
22:57:42 <cpressey> Don't believe it. It's short for T(ower of Han)oi
22:57:48 <rapido> Brackets have to match, otherwise everything's a legal program ?????
22:57:50 <cpressey> At least, that's what I always think of, when I read it
22:58:26 <oklopol> i'm not sure that's entirely true .DS
22:59:11 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
23:00:18 <rapido> '(A{B}' is a type of for-each. For each s in S the Toi program A is run with s as the context.
23:00:42 <rapido> the context concept is a bit underdeveloped (documentation wise)
23:01:06 <oklopol> each run of a toi program has a context, that just means you recursively call the interpreter with another context
23:01:25 <oklopol> i thought that was clear but yeah i guess it's a weird way to explain things
23:01:50 <oklopol> maybe "the toi program A is run with s as the initial context"
23:02:11 <cpressey> what, all that drama over a bot?
23:03:55 <cpressey> and who is Herobrine? wait, I forgot -- I don't really care
23:04:14 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:05:13 <rapido> cpressey is in CET timezone? : +00 hours here in the Netherlands - morning folks - later
23:05:40 -!- rapido has quit (Quit: rapido).
23:10:23 <cheater-> oklolol: what do you find ultrafilters are most useful for?
23:11:34 <oklopol> cheater-: what's an ultrafilter?
23:12:11 <cheater-> <oklopol> cheater-: yeah i know the usual definition is based on ultrafilters
23:12:59 <oklopol> erm, just before that you said they are based on sequences
23:13:15 <oklopol> granted, i'm sure you know what sequences are
23:13:20 <oklopol> but i don't think that's relevant
23:13:36 <oklopol> that was the point i was making
23:13:39 <cheater-> you think sequences are irrelevant to hyperreals?
23:13:55 <oklopol> no, ultrafilters are some kind of sequences, i assumed you meant them but didn't know the big word
23:14:13 <oerjan> ultrafilters are not sequences
23:14:20 <oklopol> whereas i talked to this prof once who does nonstandard analysis and i managed to copypaste a pretty cool word.
23:14:37 <oklopol> oerjan: oh? what were they then?
23:14:45 <oerjan> not even nets, although they are related a bit
23:14:45 <oklopol> i have this really vague recall
23:15:02 <oklopol> actually it's so vague i can't really put it into words
23:15:10 <oklopol> something about the natural numbers and somthing
23:15:11 <cheater-> We are going to construct a hyperreal field via sequences of reals. In fact we can add and multiply sequences componentwise; for example:
23:15:25 <oklopol> ultrapower construction :D
23:15:36 <cheater-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperreal_number < read here
23:15:56 <cheater-> i think landen or zeno linked me to an old article about that somewhere on the net
23:15:59 <oerjan> an ultrafilter in X is a family of subsets of X such that (1) for every subset of X, either it or its complement is a member (2) a superset of a member is a member
23:16:10 <cheater-> oklopol: are you like being aggressive or something
23:16:25 <oerjan> equivalently, it's a maximal filter
23:16:26 <oklopol> cheater-: no i don't know what i'm doing
23:16:36 <oklopol> really you should not listen to anything i say unless you're in a similar state of mind
23:17:11 <oerjan> hm (3) the intersection of two members is a member. i think.
23:17:24 <cheater-> i was rather thinking of you getting some weed to help with the jitteriness
23:17:39 <cheater-> but i guess you can get the medical kind too
23:17:41 <oerjan> or maybe that's redundant
23:17:59 <oklopol> oerjan: okay how do you use them? also that's a pretty cool set
23:18:10 <oklopol> one damn cool set to say the least
23:18:38 <oerjan> oklopol: a non-principal ultrafilter is one that isn't just the supersets of a fixed point.
23:19:31 <oerjan> requires the axiom of choice to find
23:19:57 <oklopol> principal = cyclic = generated by one thing, usually, here it means we just look at one element to know whether the set is in the ultrafilter
23:20:08 <oklopol> principal ultrafilter is that
23:20:25 <oklopol> then it is obvious that the S or S^c is in the ultrafilter
23:21:01 <cheater-> aren't the consequent iterations of the cantor set an ultrafilter
23:21:47 <oklopol> i doubt it, even though i don't understand it
23:22:07 <oklopol> iterations implies countable, and cantor set implies uncountable space
23:22:09 <oerjan> ...what's a consequent iteration
23:22:17 <cheater-> oerjan: the first iteration, second iteration, etc
23:22:37 <cheater-> those put together as a family of sets would make an ultrafilter, no?
23:23:02 <oerjan> you mean when you take away the middle, then the middle of each interval of that, etc?
23:23:05 <oklopol> and ultrafilters are rather fucking big in uncountable spaces so that obviously cannot happen
23:23:39 <oklopol> i hope that's not what he meant
23:23:41 <oerjan> in which case, no, that's not an ultrafilter, not even a filter although you can make one by adding supersets
23:24:07 <oklopol> filter = closed under supersets and closed under finite meets or what?
23:24:17 <oklopol> kinda mixing up terminology there
23:24:32 <cheater-> The notion of I -ultrafilter was introduced in Baumgartner [1995]: Let I be a family of
23:24:32 <cheater-> subsets of a set X such that I contains all singletons and is closed under subsets. Given a free
23:24:32 <cheater-> ultrafilter U on ω, we say that U is an I -ultrafilter if for any F : ω → X there is A ∈ U such
23:24:32 <cheater-> Baumgartner defined in his article discrete ultrafilters, scattered ultrafilters, measure zero
23:24:35 <cheater-> ultrafilters and nowhere dense ultrafilters which he obtained by taking X = 2ω , the Cantor set,
23:24:36 <cheater-> and I the collection of discrete sets, scattered sets, sets with closure of measure zero, nowhere
23:25:06 <cheater-> seems he's constructing ultrafilters from the cantor set somehow
23:26:00 <oerjan> um the cantor set is the whole space, i take
23:26:02 <cheater-> but it's too late for me to understand the details :D
23:27:12 <cheater-> http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:K61LyUFCLG0J:home.zcu.cz/~flaskova/research/MArevised.pdf+cantor+set+ultrafilter&hl=en&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjixG3WoyeYkUp79ujAGyHYhuM0avEL0uWdPbKyIkndXxySqzxUjkOB1S7WvUBXj-LDrrgwZD8PsqdycbHBuBbqP6YjjvWYvnYwAZQLD5DWfm7Xle-Ha_OcV-qTFCVP4DHI80SN&sig=AHIEtbQZCLkVGCtAe7rB005CWzF7DPbnlQ
23:27:43 <cheater-> tbh i would love to know too oklopol
23:28:01 <cheater-> i fear this secret might end up never being revealed
23:28:21 <oklopol> unless oerjan bothers to tell us lowly noobs what it means
23:28:42 <oerjan> in any case i think non-principal ultrafilters definitely require the axiom of choice
23:29:34 <oerjan> (i think "every filter has a larger ultrafilter" is probably equivalent to AoC)
23:30:18 <oklopol> ultrafiltersssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
23:38:03 <oklopol> btw is it a xor, like exactly one of S and S^c is in the ultrafilter?
23:38:24 <oklopol> because i totally just realized that's kinda important
23:41:58 <oerjan> yes. otherwise the empty set would be a member and that's disallowed for filters
23:46:27 <oklopol> but umm isn't an ultrafilter just a filter you can't add any elements to
23:46:50 <oklopol> so it's enough to show an increasing union of filters is a filter
23:46:57 <oklopol> i suppose that's obvious, but lemme check
23:47:02 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
23:47:09 <oerjan> yeah it's easy with zorn's lemma
23:47:36 <oklopol> it's obvious that union of filters is a filter
23:47:50 <oklopol> and yeah zorn's lemma is what i need the increasing unions for
23:48:22 <oklopol> well i said so a few lines above and i was too busy to write that complicated word a second time
23:48:51 <oklopol> yeah i'm not sure it's at all obvious that the union of filters in general is a filter
23:49:03 <oklopol> partly because that's not true
23:49:34 <oklopol> "<oerjan> equivalently, it's a maximal filter" <<< whoops
23:49:55 <oklopol> it's not true, i'm pretty sure
23:50:08 <oerjan> ...just take two different principal ones
23:50:21 <oklopol> yeah, that's why i'm pretty sure
23:50:42 <oklopol> because i had just proven it by taking two different principal filters
23:51:29 <oklopol> i'm not nearly as stupid as i look
23:53:39 <oklopol> i wish i had one of those practise tennis balls
23:53:59 <oklopol> a ball that you can throw against the wall without a sound being made our of this event
23:55:25 <oklopol> then i could throw it against the wall from morning till dawn
00:11:35 -!- pumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
00:20:28 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
00:30:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:32:32 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
00:34:35 -!- copumpkin has joined.
00:36:30 -!- MUILTFN_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
00:38:06 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:41:18 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
00:56:50 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:57:39 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:58:51 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:59:46 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
01:23:04 -!- esowiki has joined.
01:23:23 -!- glogbot has joined.
01:30:18 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.5.17/20110121150729]).
01:33:12 <oklopol> i should really be sleeping
01:33:34 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Me too. Good night.).
01:36:43 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
01:36:50 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
01:51:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:54:17 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
02:02:00 -!- variable has joined.
02:03:31 * pikhq_ notes that apple cider (the fermented beverage) is fucking delicious.
02:08:52 -!- pikhq has joined.
02:10:45 <pikhq> In light of it being my 21st soon, I seem to be getting inundated with various alcoholic beverages.
02:10:56 <pikhq> No all-American pisswater yet, thankfully.
02:11:42 -!- MUILTFN_ has joined.
02:11:54 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
02:20:45 -!- MUILTFN_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
02:21:57 <calamari> alcohol is extremely overrated
02:23:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:27:55 * pikhq doesn't understand the appeal in cheap alcoholic swill.
02:29:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
02:29:11 <calamari> sorry, I don't understand the appeal of any of it.. tastes nasty
02:29:34 <pikhq> Decent alcoholic beverages are fucking delicious.
02:30:19 <pikhq> But the effects of alcohol? Yeah, I don't really understand the appeal.]
02:31:59 <pikhq> Maybe I'm just a freak that likes thought. :P
02:53:00 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
02:53:02 -!- Wamanuz5 has joined.
02:53:46 <Gregor> At some point you have to draw a line *shrugs*
02:53:55 <Gregor> Nobody says "I don't like Coke because of its trace amounts of alcohol"
02:54:25 <Gregor> Except for the kind of people who put more trust into small, obsolete books than common sense of course.
02:56:33 <Sgeo> It's a large group of obsolete books...
02:57:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:57:44 <Gregor> The books themselves are frequently small :P
02:58:03 <Sgeo> I read the Song of Soloman on the bus
02:58:28 <Sgeo> It wasn't as dirty as I thought it would be. Not really for kids, but nothing too graphic
02:58:42 <Sgeo> Did seem incentual though
02:59:32 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
03:02:49 <Gregor> If (IF!) I offered to change my name to Mallory Caitor if I got more than $1,000 in donations and won libc.so, would more people donate? :P
03:03:00 <Sgeo> And I see something online saying it's a bad translation
03:03:06 <Sgeo> Argh, low battery
03:15:59 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
03:16:41 -!- Vorpal has joined.
03:31:08 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
03:37:59 <pikhq> Curious. The current government in Canada has been found in contempt of Parliament.
03:38:01 -!- Lymia has joined.
03:38:02 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host).
03:38:02 -!- Lymia has joined.
03:40:00 -!- woroyo_ has joined.
03:40:49 -!- woroyo_ has changed nick to wareya.
03:43:10 -!- woroyo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
03:47:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:48:01 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
03:48:33 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
03:49:09 -!- invariable has joined.
04:12:12 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
04:12:17 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
04:17:19 -!- pikhq has joined.
04:17:42 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
04:27:34 <Gregor> Let's say you wanted to, purely for the curiosity, create a system which would remain active for the remainder of your life, capable of serving a web page (or equivalent) which simply reports its uptime, AND capable of being upgraded to meet new standards so long as the upgrades require only software changes.
04:27:40 <Gregor> How would you go about that?
04:28:20 <Gregor> Note that it doesn't need to be Internet- or otherwise network-accessible at all times, as that's probably wildly out of your control, but you should strive to make it so most of the time.
04:30:15 <pikhq> I would design it using a microcontroller that is likely never ever going to cease use.
04:31:19 <Gregor> Does that matter? The Z80 isn't more /stable/ than, say, a commodity x86, and you can never replace the processor anyway.
04:31:29 <Gregor> By "remain active for the remainder of your life" I mean 100% uptime.
04:31:45 <Gregor> (Maybe I didn't make that clear :P )
04:32:49 <pikhq> Oh. In that case I'd fucking hand-design something with wire wrapping.
04:33:00 <Gregor> Uhh, good luck upgrading that software.
04:33:15 <Gregor> Oh, unless you're taking advantage of a loophole in my description and putting everything in hardware :P
04:33:22 <Gregor> "Nothing requires software changes, therefore win"
04:33:40 <pikhq> Who said anything about software? :)
04:34:04 <Gregor> "AND capable of being upgraded to meet new standards so long as the upgrades require only software changes." // I did :P
04:35:30 <pikhq> Anyways, I never *said* it couldn't be an actual CPU.
04:35:57 <Gregor> Yeah, but if it is then that just leads back to "<Gregor> Uhh, good luck upgrading that software."
04:36:17 <pikhq> I don't see why it would be difficult.
04:36:49 <invariable> Gregor: for your logging bot: make sure it doesn't join an auto-kline channel
04:37:16 <Gregor> invariable: It can only join a channel due either to an /invite or a glogbot-op request.
04:37:29 <pikhq> It's just that wire-wrapping together digital circuitry will result in *exceptionally* reliable system.
04:38:18 <invariable> https://twitter.com/SecureTips --> is pure win.
04:38:19 <invariable> And yes I've said this here before :-p
04:38:47 <pikhq> And if you also make the memory be, say, magnetic core, it should survive just about everything but someone actually bombing it.
04:41:12 <Gregor> What's your reliable power source?
04:42:25 <pikhq> Though I doubt I, personally, would be able to find one easily, if I could, I'd get an RTG.
04:43:11 <invariable> Gregor: if I neeeded 100% uptime I'd go for redundancy over reliability
04:44:44 <Gregor> Redundancy IS reliability when all redundant sources are taken as a whole.
04:45:28 <invariable> Gregor: I meant: I'd go for a larger number of more fallible parts opposed to more expensive/fewer less fallible parts
04:45:46 <invariable> ie - spend time making more of them work than making those that work work better
04:46:06 <Gregor> Mmmmm, so you're making a cluster.
04:46:17 <Gregor> (Or something broadly in that family)
04:46:56 <pikhq> Soooo... Make a hard-to-notice botnet that does Trusting Trust on pretty much all future computer and OS designs. >:D
04:47:10 <pikhq> The Internet shall be my cluster!
04:47:48 <Gregor> Also ANYBODY WHO HASN'T DONATED TO THE LIBC.SO FUND BY SUNDAY SHALL BE DECLARED A TRAITOR
04:48:15 <Gregor> (This means that almost the entire population of the Earth will be traitors as of Sunday)
04:48:30 <pikhq> invariable: Yes, but it's pretty hard to.
04:48:42 <invariable> pikhq: so is the trusting trust attack :-p
04:49:03 <pikhq> invariable: Oh, I've already proposed a fucking universal botnet.
04:49:17 <pikhq> invariable: It's not like this is all that *practical*. :)
04:49:50 <Gregor> invariable: btw, since when are there instant-kline channels ...
04:50:22 <invariable> Gregor: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#klineannoyinguser
04:53:38 <Gregor> I can only assume that the auto-kline channels do not, in fact, exist, so even if Freenode didn't have an only-ops-can-invite default AND allowed people to invite others to join channels they're not on, /invite wouldn't work
04:59:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:01:18 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
05:01:33 <Gregor> Err, do not exist in the sense that they are not actual channels (not in /list, can't be /invited etc), not that they won't actually trigger kline.
05:04:25 -!- wittykitty has joined.
05:09:37 <coppro> Gregor: I assume it's, say, #porn
05:10:09 <invariable> its the type of channels botnets typically join
05:10:29 <coppro> oh, with different sigils?
05:11:34 <invariable> coppro: I won't give exact examples: but it is not a channel one is likely to join accidentally.
05:12:01 <invariable> its something like #m33tupForMySillyBotNet4934892489
05:19:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:21:21 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
05:22:53 -!- asiekierka has joined.
05:38:26 <pikhq> 'Twould seem to be a good thing, that.
05:38:28 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
05:39:25 <pikhq> Doing rather well this evening.
05:39:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:39:59 <coppro> I have discovered the problem with modern image compression
05:40:14 <coppro> naive compression does it row-by-row
05:40:27 <coppro> advanced algorithms might do more at once, but are fundamentally row-based
05:40:37 <pikhq> Not entirely true.
05:40:41 <coppro> this makes it impossible to compress infinite images properly
05:40:52 <coppro> only a diagonal algorithm can compress an infinite image
05:41:01 <pikhq> The typical lossy image compression scheme is actually submatrix by submatrix.
05:41:18 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
05:41:47 <coppro> but how are those submatrices ordered?
05:42:15 <coppro> no way you'll compress an infinite image like that
05:42:39 <pikhq> There's no real reason that they need to have a particular order; they're handled entirely independently of every other submatrix.
05:42:54 <pikhq> At least until you get into more advanced techniques.
05:43:34 <coppro> hence the problem with image processing today
05:44:12 <pikhq> And hypothetically you *could* just treat the entire image as a single matrix and perform the DCT on *that*...
05:44:29 <pikhq> Though that involves an infinite number of infinite summations.
05:45:17 <pikhq> And then multiplying it by another infinite matrix for the sake of quantising it.
05:50:06 <pikhq> Though after all *that*, it's a simple matter to output the infinite matrix into an infinite bitstream.
05:50:57 -!- wittykitty has left.
05:59:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
06:01:18 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
06:15:15 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:19:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
06:21:18 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
06:39:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
06:41:19 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
06:57:12 -!- cheater99 has joined.
06:58:52 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
06:59:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:01:22 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
07:22:14 -!- wittykitty has joined.
07:30:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:31:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
07:45:17 -!- wittykitty has quit (Quit: wittykitty).
08:00:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:02:20 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
08:20:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:22:25 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
08:37:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
08:42:21 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
08:47:03 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
08:47:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
09:00:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:02:24 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
09:17:58 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
09:22:22 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
09:23:08 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving).
09:40:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:42:25 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
09:52:27 -!- pikhq has joined.
09:53:16 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
09:58:21 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
10:02:23 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
10:20:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:22:33 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
10:41:10 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:51:55 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
10:52:45 -!- pikhq has joined.
10:52:45 -!- invariable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
11:32:23 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:01:36 -!- cheater00 has joined.
12:01:59 -!- variable has joined.
12:03:04 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
12:43:21 -!- oerjan has joined.
12:59:29 <Gregor> Why must I continue to assume competence on ##javascript X_X
13:00:06 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
13:01:01 <fizzie> Gregor: glutton for punishment: 1. (idiomatic) One persistent in an effort in spite of harmful or unpleasant results. "I should have quit this job long ago, but I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment."
13:01:28 <Sgeo> Gregor, what happened?
13:01:37 -!- cheater99 has joined.
13:02:01 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
13:05:53 <ais523> well, competent JavaScript programmers exist
13:05:59 <ais523> is it just that they don't hang out on Freenode?
13:06:10 <ais523> or that ##javascript is sufficiently competence-hostile that all the competent people were driven away?
13:11:45 <fizzie> Perhaps this was just a case of mistakenly assuming competence \forall, when competence just \exists.
13:18:10 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
13:23:08 -!- esowiki has joined.
13:23:18 -!- glogbot has joined.
13:23:30 <ais523> [13:22] * oerjan evilly makes a non-logged utterance
13:24:04 <oerjan> IT WOULD HAVE WORKED TOO IF NOT FOR THIS MEDDLING KID
13:25:33 <fizzie> You could have always just disputed the accuracy of ais523's quotation. (Doing it after that outburst might not be entirely credible any more.)
13:26:03 <ais523> I dispute being referred to as a "KID"
13:26:19 <ais523> my parents are not goats, and I do not aspire to be the Guy
13:26:55 <oerjan> are you _sure_ they're not goats? maybe they are just using creative makeup
13:27:40 -!- sftp has joined.
13:28:36 <oerjan> also, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouMeddlingKids
13:29:13 -!- sftp has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
13:29:25 <ais523> oerjan: I've watched enough Scooby-Doo when younger to not need a TV Tropes link to get the reference
13:29:29 -!- sftp has joined.
13:29:41 <ais523> children need a constant diet of cartoons to avoid them becoming bored and going out and setting fire to recycling bins
13:29:52 <oerjan> FINE, IGNORE MY EVIL PLOT TO ENSNARE YOU IN TVTROPES THEN
13:30:50 * oerjan does not picture ais523 as a person to set fire to recycling bins. but maybe that's just due to overdosing on cartoons.
13:31:01 <ais523> oerjan: I never have done
13:31:16 <ais523> the recycling bins near my house have been repeatedly set on fire, but on no occasion was it me who did so
13:31:40 <ais523> besides, I have a complex strategy to avoid getting ensnared in TV Tropes
13:31:53 <oerjan> at least, no one saw you, and they certainly cannot prove it.
13:31:57 <ais523> although at work, I abandon it in favour of the much simpler strategy of never visiting it at all
13:32:03 <fizzie> There's a local maximum of the being-set-on-fire density function for recycling bins that coincides with your house, but I'm sure it's really just a coincidence.
13:32:22 <ais523> fizzie: but that's because the recycling bins are near my house!
13:32:30 <ais523> not because I'm there!
13:32:54 <ais523> some people wanted to build a mobile phone mast near my house, but they changed their minds because they thought it would just be repeatedly destroyed by vandals
13:33:04 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
13:33:12 <fizzie> That shouldn't affect the being-set-on-fire density for recycling bins, just the overall recycling-bins-that-are-set-on-fire density.
13:33:30 <ais523> well, vandalism's quite high where I live
13:33:37 <ais523> or used to be, before the place started swarming with police
13:33:39 <oerjan> listen to fizzie, he's our official statistician
13:34:02 <fizzie> A reasonably non-vandalizable mobile phone mast sounds doable. (Barring especially dedicated vandals, anyway.)
13:34:21 <ais523> the harder you make something to vandalise, the more dedicated the vandals get
13:35:20 <oerjan> just turn up the signal level until the vandals cannot survive getting near it.
13:35:48 <fizzie> There's this 1:10^9 scale model of the solar system in Helsinki; the Earth/Moon model used to be a regular target for vandalism, so often that they had to reimplement it like this: http://www.ursa.fi/ursa/aurinkokuntamalli/eng/earth-en.html
13:36:06 <fizzie> I think there used to be a thin metal rod for the Moon.
13:36:39 <ais523> what a bizarre thing to vandalise
13:36:59 <fizzie> And the Earth is just a hole; if you click on the "Mars" link you can see the others are spheres.
13:37:43 <fizzie> Saturn seems to have taken some damage too.
13:38:23 <fizzie> (The Neptune model is pretty nearby to the university.)
13:38:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
13:39:51 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
13:40:22 <fizzie> "The model of Pluto used to be near the Länsiväylä cycling/pedestrian bridge leading to Hanasaari, but it has been missing for a while. [note: The pages note that in 2000 that both the guide and Pluto were missing, but as of July 2004, the guide has been replaced but Pluto is still AWOL.]
13:40:30 <fizzie> Guys fishing and the info guide next to the Länsiväylä bridge rail. Pluto is either still missing or so small as to be impossible to see."
13:40:47 <fizzie> It's not a very well-maintained model.
13:42:03 <fizzie> But the "visit them all" route is still a reasonable bicycle trip, even if the attractions have been manhandled a bit.
13:45:46 * oerjan imagines opposing vandal gangs battling over whether pluto should be included or not
13:46:18 <fizzie> "The City of Helsinki and the Astronomical Society Ursa look after the models. Vandals have occasionally bothered the models. If you find that the models or their guide charts have been vandalized, Please call Ursa at 09 684 0400."
13:46:22 <fizzie> That's a nice verb to use.
13:46:32 <fizzie> "Oh, stop bothering Saturnus."
13:48:26 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
13:51:15 -!- FireFly has joined.
13:51:43 <fizzie> Yeah, the Finnish pages confirm what I thought: currently they have both Pluto and Charon represented by pins (2.5mm and 1.8mm in diameter) in the info board. (Also Pluto's included "for historical reasons".)
13:53:00 <fizzie> 2.2 and 1.5, not 2.5 and 1.8. (Don't know how I managed to typo a constant offset of 0.3 in.)
14:05:29 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
14:12:13 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
14:31:16 -!- Sgeo has joined.
14:40:18 -!- Gregor has set topic: "First, you are dating a mammal which is concerning. | Democratic capitalist history of the God Blessed United States of America: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | Antifederalist punditry: http://gregorr.dyndns.org:8080/logs/_esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
14:50:37 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
15:10:57 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
15:28:17 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
15:29:35 -!- cheater99 has joined.
15:42:50 -!- copumpkin has joined.
15:50:50 <Ilari> Slow day with APNIC: APNIC down 0.04: 131k+64k+32k+16k+/32 to Australia, 32k+16k to Japan, 16k to Vietnam, 1k to Pakistan, 1k to Thailand, 1k to Bangladesh, 64k to Hong Kong, 256k+128k+32k to China, 256+2x/48 to Malaysia, /32 to Singapore.
15:51:10 <ais523> slow days are good, ofc
15:52:06 <Ilari> Oops, that first is supposed to be 128k, not 131k.
15:55:06 -!- cheater00 has joined.
15:56:38 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
16:02:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:03:56 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:05:01 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:09:15 -!- asiekierka has joined.
16:21:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
16:26:17 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:34:53 -!- cpressey has joined.
16:39:06 <cpressey> @tell Deewiant I contend that "form feed reflects" is not a BAD for Befunge. FF only has a meaning in a Trefunge source file.
16:39:41 <Deewiant> cpressey: What of the way line breaks are treated in Unefunge?
16:39:41 <lambdabot> Deewiant: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:40:34 <cpressey> Not sure I follow. Can you explain that?
16:40:52 <Deewiant> "Subsequent lines in Unefunge are simply appended to the first, and the end of the source file indicates the end of the (single) line. End-of-line markers are never copied into Funge-Space."
16:41:41 <cpressey> Sounds like a special case for Unefunge to me.
16:41:56 <cpressey> And FF is not an end-of-line marker :)
16:42:21 <Deewiant> Seems to me that FF in Befunge is analogous to CR/NL/CRNL in Unefunge
16:43:21 <Deewiant> Newline: increase Y, set X = 0
16:43:39 <Deewiant> Newline when Y doesn't exist: do nothing
16:43:47 <Deewiant> FF when Z doesn't exist: ?? (my interpretation: do nothing)
16:45:05 <cpressey> OK. Well, I have FBBI down to 11 BADs (I thought it was 6 but then I realized you can't just grep for BAD in Mycology's output for some reason.) I don't know how many of these I plan to try to fix.
16:45:42 <Deewiant> Some test failures prevent other tests from running, which is why you can get more after fixing something.
16:47:28 <cpressey> No, I mean it's really that "fbbi mycology.b98 | grep BAD" really doesn't return all the lines that have BAD on them. If I pipe the output into less, I see that some characters are highlighted. Is there some weird ANSI escape sequence thing going on in the output?
16:48:19 <Deewiant> From my old Mycology results page:
16:48:21 <Deewiant> FBBI’s help text describes a flag -fast with the words “more speed, at the cost of locking up in infinite loops”. Interestingly, all it does is that it prevents the output of the string " \b" whenever the IP moves. I’m told that this harks back to the days of DOS, wherein one could only interrupt a program when it did a system call, or some such. That would certainly explain the description.
16:48:27 <Deewiant> The problem with it is that FBBI prints that even if the output is redirected to a file, which results in tonnes of binary interspersed with all the normal output. Hence, I recommend always running with -f passed—if you must use FBBI.
16:51:02 <cpressey> But wait, re your FF argument: if FF is analogous to NL, then it shouldn't even be loaded into the source (unless binary I/O is in effect -- in which case it should be loaded, and it should be considered unimplemented because it is outside 32-127.)
16:53:23 <Deewiant> Yes, it shouldn't be loaded, that's correct.
16:54:22 -!- cal153 has joined.
16:55:02 <cpressey> The temptation to work on the Befunge-111 spec is strong. Well, thanks for discussing this, anyway, and thanks again for Mycology. I'
16:55:05 -!- impomatic has joined.
16:55:22 <cpressey> I'll probably release a new version of FBBI soon-ish, but it'll probably still have a handful of BADs.
16:55:34 <cpressey> And I should probably get back to work.
16:55:41 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
17:14:02 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:14:11 -!- cheater- has joined.
17:21:47 <Gregor> impomatic: I have glogbotted.
17:22:09 <Gregor> impomatic: glogbot is public-access, so if you want a logger in #corewars then just ask the appropriate person to /invite it.
17:22:35 <impomatic> Gregor: thanks. Where does glogbot log to?
17:23:35 <Gregor> impomatic: (Although that URL is temporary, I'll move it to codu.org at some point)
17:25:38 <cheater-> is alise still on the hissy fit
17:28:47 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
17:29:12 -!- copumpkin has joined.
17:32:01 <impomatic> Gregor: thanks. Logging is set up :-)
17:41:46 <Gregor> cheater-: As far as we know.
17:47:16 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:47:24 <Gregor> cheater-: Don't complain :P
17:47:54 <cheater-> Gregor: do you see me complaining? i always enjoyed benny hill and other silly things :))
17:48:46 -!- FireFly has joined.
17:54:56 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
17:59:43 -!- pumpkin has joined.
18:01:17 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:05:37 <Gregor> impomatic: Good thing you got a new logbot in #corewars, since clearly the place is hoppin' ;)
18:10:55 <Gregor> Closest that have been done are things like PSOX.
18:11:03 <Gregor> Which isn't a general-purpose FFI of course.
18:11:06 <Gregor> But could probably be adapted to be so.
18:12:27 <variable> Gregor: I'm fine with a POSIX only FFI
18:12:53 <Gregor> Well, what I mean is it's not actually an FFI, it's just a binding to POSIX functions :P
18:13:01 <variable> Gregor: yeah - that should be fine
18:13:20 <pumpkin> pikhq: holy shit, geohot is fucking crazy
18:13:45 <Gregor> variable: Well, then check out PSOX and make Sgeo happy X-P
18:14:57 <variable> Gregor: oh perfect - that is EXACTLY what I was looking for :-p
18:21:06 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:21:09 -!- cheater00 has joined.
18:35:27 -!- cheater- has joined.
18:35:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
18:38:11 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:39:02 -!- cheater99 has joined.
18:39:37 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:39:59 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:48:31 -!- azaq23 has joined.
18:50:37 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
18:52:54 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:00:48 <Ilari> Latest 30-day allocations for APNIC: 2.420 blocks. Not counting today: 2.372 blocks. Entiere world not counting today: 2.724 blocks (87% by APNIC).
19:12:12 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:17:04 <pumpkin> I was suggesting attributing it :)
19:17:10 -!- asiekierka has joined.
19:19:41 <cheater99> it's not like anyone cares about the identity of you faceless blogs
19:33:13 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:38:56 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:04:50 -!- cheater- has joined.
20:14:20 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:15:53 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, 19:19:41: <cheater99> it's not like anyone cares about the identity of you faceless blogs
20:25:19 -!- cheater00 has joined.
20:25:31 <pikhq> No, no, to 12:12 < pumpkin> pikhq: holy shit, geohot is fucking crazy
20:25:47 <cheater00> wait who's geohot and why is he crazy?
20:26:17 <pikhq> George Hotz of SCEA v. George Hotz et al fame.
20:26:40 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Sony Computer Entertainment of America.
20:26:43 <cheater00> http://www.maxconsole.net/content.php?44568-Geohot-goes-crazy-respawns-as-Eminem-wannabe
20:26:56 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
20:27:28 <Phantom_Hoover> So, in other news, a Christmas card for my family sent from America arrived *today*.
20:28:28 <pumpkin> pikhq: he sent them his hard drives
20:28:35 <pumpkin> pikhq: with the controller boards removed from them...
20:28:48 <pumpkin> Sony was understandably not happy, and is accusing him of tampering with evidence
20:29:55 <cheater00> he should have sent them his hard drives, except only readable by a special driver that swaps the bits in some fucked up way.
20:30:31 <cheater00> OR: send them his hard drives, except submerged in resin to protect the electronics inside!
20:31:00 <fizzie> Can I have a citation on this controller board thing? (And anyway, weren't those sent to a third party, not Sony at all?)
20:35:19 <fizzie> I think the funniest SCEA/Hotz thing I've read was when one of Sony's filed subpoenas to Paypal said just "1. PayPal, Inc. is directed to furnish all documents, including electronically stored information, in its possession, custody or control.", period, without specifying anything else.
20:35:33 <fizzie> That's quite a request.
20:41:48 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:41:58 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:48:21 <cheater00> i'm hoping for bartab to be fixed and working in firefox 4 before the end of the week
20:48:31 <cheater00> looks there's some nice activity in the repo!
20:56:41 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:01:20 <pikhq> fizzie: It's in the SCEA filings.
21:01:32 <pikhq> fizzie: From the third party in question.
21:02:25 <pikhq> fizzie: As these are nominally competent analysts of hard drives, it seems they would have noticed that pretty instantly.
21:02:54 <pikhq> I'm inclined to accuse *them* of tampering with the evidence.
21:22:30 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.5.17/20110121150729]).
21:24:28 <Sgeo> http://www.cs.sunysb.edu/undergrad/CSEMajorRequirements.html
21:24:36 <Sgeo> Is this really that much better than my school?
21:24:42 <Sgeo> Just the occasional math course
21:24:48 <Sgeo> Erm, ok, a bit more
21:29:55 <fizzie> It seems somewhat engineering-oriented. And a smaller number of courses than I'd expect, but then again I don't really know anything about your educamational systems.
21:32:04 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:32:07 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
21:39:09 -!- cheater99 has joined.
21:40:26 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:43:34 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:43:53 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Are these DF bug reports or something?
21:46:47 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:47:58 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:50:44 <fizzie> Now that I look back what courses I took during the M.Sc degree, it's quite an incoherent collection.
21:52:50 <fizzie> I don't know which one thing corresponds to the "what" in your parlance. We have the general study line, an "option", the major, and a set of minors.
21:55:01 <fizzie> The "study program" was 'tietotekniikka', which I guess converts to "Computer Science and/or Engineering". (They're grouped together under the same roof here.)
21:55:58 <Zwaarddijk> are you a diplom engineer or a magister of philosophy?
21:56:25 <fizzie> Zwaarddijk: DI; just managed to graduate from TKK mere moments before it became Aalto.
21:56:34 <Zwaarddijk> (MSc seems to be a bit ambiguous between those)
21:57:11 <fizzie> (Here "mere moments" == four months or so.)
21:59:39 <fizzie> But (probably due to hysterical raisins) the path to a computer sciencey person includes some rather odd things, like courses on basic electronics. (Or at least did; maybe the study program revampings have made the contents more logical too.)
22:02:10 <fizzie> And an inexplicable physics labwork course, though I don't know how mandatory that was. Maybe it was this "with extra science" option I somehow ended up with, which included supersized maths and physics compared to the regular CSE study program contents.
22:13:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:13:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:16:14 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:16:38 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Absurdly.
22:16:39 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
22:17:16 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:25:08 -!- pumpkin has joined.
22:28:24 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:35:09 -!- pumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:40:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a depressing feeling that traffic analysis will show a noticeable drop in traffic over the last week.
22:41:53 <Phantom_Hoover> You try reasoning with him, he had no quarrel with you.
22:41:54 <pikhq_> No elliott means conversation isn't guaranteed 20 hours a day.
22:44:38 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
22:46:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Saying the reason he left is not the reason I think he left.
22:49:17 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: fnord in the aarhus math department is worth a read.
22:49:39 <Gregor> I wonder which log he's reading DURPADURPA
22:57:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:00:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
23:01:33 <Gregor> I've been inspired to add a "stalker" interface to glogbot's logs :P
23:01:38 <Phantom_Hoover> 22:53:38: <Gregor> Then why logread :P ← pikhq messaged him.
23:02:34 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:02:55 -!- nottwo has joined.
23:05:27 <Gregor> nottwo: Your web page is extremely elucidating :P
23:07:39 <nottwo> Gregor: yeah, i'm still in stealth mode :)
23:07:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:09:08 <oerjan> you're a few hours late for him
23:12:46 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:13:07 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:29:44 -!- copumpkin has joined.
23:29:59 <Gregor> http://gregorr.dyndns.org:8080/logs/stalker.php?channel=_esoteric Stalker mode!
23:30:15 <Gregor> Viola as in "voila" :P
23:31:06 <oerjan> what's that page supposed to do
23:31:30 <Gregor> It's for people who want to actively logread the channel without actually being in it :P
23:31:53 <oerjan> well anyway it doesn't work in IE
23:32:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:32:28 <Gregor> I care ALMOST as much as I care about making it work on Netscape 4.
23:32:40 <Gregor> It'll work on IE9 btw, and probably IE8.
23:32:41 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:32:46 <Gregor> So you're in some kind of version hell.
23:33:05 <Gregor> Oh, then I guess it won't :P
23:33:08 <Gregor> Oh well, I don't care at all.
23:33:13 <Gregor> You should use a browser that doesn't blow.
23:54:58 <Gregor> http://programming-motherfucker.com/
23:57:56 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:00:14 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
00:05:31 <variable> General question: have you ever written a feature complete, non-trivial program, that others used with near zero bugs
00:06:25 <Gregor> That last requirement is a bit steep :P
00:06:47 <variable> Gregor: yes - this is why I asked.
00:07:08 <Gregor> I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to tell you since it's part of Intel's IT software infrastructure :P
00:07:44 <Gregor> But suffice it to say it was a complete rewrite of a program which effectively has behavior similar to a userland unionfs.
00:07:54 <variable> that's fine. I'll trust you on that :-p
00:08:15 <variable> why did it need to be re-written ?
00:08:40 <Gregor> Because the old one was such a mess that it took me a year of working there to understand what it did, and that made two people who did :P
00:09:08 <variable> Gregor: I could answer yes with two programs I wrote. One was a contact script for users requesting support (it stored the details in a DB, didn't just mail them)
00:09:28 <variable> the other was a program to manage users for Google Apps
00:10:26 <variable> Gregor: how long did it take you to write?
00:10:55 <Gregor> That was a LONG time ago >_>
00:11:53 <pikhq> variable: There are no bugs, only undocumented features.
00:12:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:14:16 * variable is writing a brainfuck interpreter in 32bit x86 assembly now
00:15:02 <variable> Gregor: your a PhD candidate now - right?
00:15:16 <Gregor> My a PhD candidate now right.
00:15:46 <Gregor> My a PhD candidate now, right.
00:25:35 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:28:45 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:28:45 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:28:59 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:30:14 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
00:34:45 <Gregor> http://ompldr.org/vN3hlMQ <-- HOW REAL MEN PLAY NETHACK
00:55:30 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
00:59:38 <pikhq> The fuck is that font?
01:00:13 <pikhq> ... Gregor handwriting?
01:00:19 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
01:00:40 <Gregor> pikhq: Also known as the BEST font.
01:01:00 <pikhq> Gregor: Your handwriting is obnoxiously better than mine.
01:01:03 <oerjan> Basically Entirely Scrambled Text
01:02:43 -!- cal153 has joined.
01:04:28 <pikhq> そりゃ変ですが、Gregor is awesomeます。
01:23:12 -!- esowiki has joined.
01:23:23 -!- glogbot has joined.
01:28:59 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:30:43 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
02:08:04 <variable> http://pastebin.com/mPbJQVik --> I'm *really* close to completing my assembly brainfuck program
02:08:16 <variable> just need to make those words work
02:08:35 <variable> but I have an 'infinite' tape, 'infinite' cells, and a tape ptr and a cell ptr
02:22:59 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:23:17 <oklopol> Gregor: i can't get that to work in firefox either
02:23:42 <Gregor> I can't get it NOT to work, under any browser, under any circumstances :P
02:23:54 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
02:24:36 <Gregor> variable: http://gregorr.dyndns.org:8080/logs/stalker.php?channel=_esoteric
02:26:03 <oklopol> Gregor: how do you not get it not to work? all i had to do was enter it in the fucking url box, is that too hard for you or smth
02:26:06 <variable> something is wrong with (%ebx, %esi, 4) :-(
02:27:16 -!- Gregor has set topic: "First, you are dating a mammal which is concerning. | Democratic capitalist history of the God Blessed United States of America: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | Antifederalist punditry: http://gregorr.dyndns.org:8080/logs/_esoteric/.
02:27:25 <Gregor> ... wtf people, it's not magic.
02:27:53 <oklopol> it's like it knows what you want and gives it to ya
02:28:49 <Gregor> If you thought THAT was magic,
02:30:15 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
02:30:31 <oklopol> hey wouldn't it be cool if we hired someone to manually keep logs
02:30:32 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
02:31:45 <oklopol> and you could subscribe and get them sent directly to your home every month
02:32:06 <oerjan> illuminated log manuscripts
02:42:12 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:43:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
02:43:52 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
02:44:21 <pikhq> Seems likely we'll see APNIC depletion before World IPv6 Day.
02:45:12 <Lymia> Does Japanese count as an esoteric language?
03:12:29 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:14:08 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
03:22:46 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
03:22:58 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
03:28:31 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
03:31:52 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:42:29 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:43:35 <Gregor> The real question is, is it an esoteric PROGRAMMING language.
03:43:42 <Gregor> I'm going to go with ...
03:44:06 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
03:55:50 <Sgeo> Could all human languages be said to be turing complete?
03:56:18 -!- augur has joined.
03:57:09 <pikhq_> No, but any system of: human language + immortal, complaint humans + infinite space could be said to be Turing complete.
03:57:49 -!- coppro has joined.
04:02:29 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:04:00 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:04:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
04:07:44 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
04:07:48 -!- pikhq has joined.
04:22:29 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:24:10 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
04:40:30 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
04:44:06 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
04:47:41 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:48:25 -!- wareya has joined.
04:51:59 -!- coppro has joined.
05:11:58 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:13:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
05:26:50 -!- zzo38 has joined.
05:31:59 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:33:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
05:35:28 -!- asiekierka has joined.
05:45:56 -!- sftp has joined.
05:51:58 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:53:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
06:04:41 <pikhq> Why the hell have I seen 「シーラカンス」 keep coming up?
06:04:50 <pikhq> It should be an *insanely* obscure word.
06:05:08 <pikhq> (in English, it's "coelacanth".)
06:10:17 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
06:11:28 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
06:13:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
06:17:02 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:17:10 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
06:29:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
06:33:39 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
06:51:58 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
06:53:35 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
07:06:10 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
07:13:39 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
07:19:01 -!- wittykitty has joined.
07:23:48 -!- wittykitty has left.
07:32:12 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:33:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
07:48:23 <zzo38> There is a chess variant where one piece is simultaneously the weakest piece and the strongest piece in the game.
07:51:58 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:13:10 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
08:13:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
08:22:46 -!- dbc has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
08:27:29 -!- mtve has joined.
08:28:33 -!- dbc has joined.
08:56:51 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:47:48 -!- dbc has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
09:50:02 -!- dbc has joined.
09:50:04 -!- Gregor has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me).
09:54:57 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
09:57:35 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
10:00:19 -!- Slereah has joined.
10:12:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
10:17:38 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
10:35:58 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:37:15 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
10:56:12 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:57:25 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
11:07:28 -!- Gregor has joined.
11:07:46 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest84241.
11:11:21 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
11:12:56 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
11:18:46 -!- azaq23 has joined.
11:30:06 -!- cheater- has joined.
11:30:09 -!- p_q has joined.
11:31:52 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
11:33:07 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
11:42:18 <Ilari> Ouch: https://blog.torproject.org/blog/detecting-certificate-authority-compromises-and-web-browser-collusion
12:08:58 -!- p_q has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:10:35 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
12:13:09 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
12:13:26 -!- pikhq has joined.
12:28:28 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:30:17 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
12:34:10 -!- FireFly has joined.
12:34:29 <Ilari> According to latest extended-stats file (for yesterday), APNIC has 109 149 /24s left. On IPv6 side, 514 862 /32s to go until APNIC can request more space. :-)
12:34:55 -!- Guest84241 has changed nick to Gregor.
12:35:04 <Gregor> 10485760 bytes (10 MB) copied, 0.112595 s, 93.1 MB/s
12:38:39 <Ilari> Those 109 149 /24s are in 2 274 regions.
12:39:59 <Ilari> Arithmetic Average of 12 293 addresses per block.
12:41:52 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:42:18 -!- Sgeo has joined.
12:46:17 <Gregor> Latest XKCD proves that just when you thought it was at rock bottom, it has SO MUCH FURTHER DOWN to go.
12:47:30 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:48:28 -!- Sgeo has joined.
12:49:28 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:50:25 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
12:52:21 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:54:41 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
12:56:01 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
13:04:03 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
13:10:25 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
13:16:33 -!- oerjan has joined.
13:18:46 <cheater-> http://programming-motherfucker.com/
13:23:16 -!- esowiki has joined.
13:23:28 -!- glogbot has joined.
13:29:58 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
13:30:25 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
13:30:38 -!- azaq23 has joined.
13:37:50 <Gregor> cheater-: Yes, I linked that in the first place :P
13:39:53 -!- Gregor has set topic: "First, you are dating a mammal which is concerning." | Democratic capitalist history of the God Blessed United States of America: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | Antifederalist punditry: http://gregorr.dyndns.org:8080/logs/_esoteric/.
13:40:09 * oerjan had wondered when you'd fix that
13:48:58 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:03:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:10:27 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
14:15:07 -!- oklopol has quit.
14:24:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:24:37 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:24:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:25:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:25:37 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:25:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:26:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:26:37 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:26:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:27:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:27:37 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:27:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:28:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:28:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:28:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:29:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:29:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:29:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:30:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:30:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:30:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:31:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:31:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:31:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:32:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:32:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:32:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:33:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:33:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:33:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:34:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:34:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:34:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:35:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:35:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:35:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:36:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:36:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:36:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:37:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:37:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:37:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:38:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:38:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:38:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:39:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:39:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:39:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:40:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:40:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:40:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:41:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:41:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:41:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:42:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:42:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:42:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:43:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:43:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:43:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:44:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:44:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:44:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:45:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:45:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:45:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:46:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:46:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:46:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:47:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:47:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:47:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:48:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:48:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:48:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:49:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:49:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:49:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:50:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:50:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:50:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:51:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:51:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:51:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:52:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:52:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:52:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:53:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:53:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:53:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:54:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:54:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:54:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:55:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:55:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:55:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:56:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:56:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:56:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:57:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:57:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:57:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:58:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:58:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:58:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:59:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:59:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
14:59:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:00:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:00:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:00:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:01:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:01:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:01:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:02:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:02:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:02:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:03:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:03:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:03:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:04:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:04:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:04:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:05:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:05:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:05:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:06:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:06:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:07:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:07:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:07:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:08:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:08:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:08:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:09:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:09:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:09:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:10:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:10:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:10:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:11:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:11:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:11:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:12:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:12:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:12:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:13:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:13:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:13:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:14:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:14:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:14:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:15:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:15:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:15:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:16:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:16:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:16:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:17:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:17:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:17:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:18:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:18:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:18:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:19:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:19:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:19:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:20:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:20:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:20:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:21:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:21:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:21:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:22:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:22:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:22:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:23:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:23:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:23:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:24:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:24:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:24:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:25:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:25:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:25:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:26:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:26:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:26:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:27:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:27:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:27:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:28:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:28:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:28:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:29:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:29:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:29:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:30:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:30:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:30:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:31:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:31:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:31:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:32:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:32:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:32:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:33:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:33:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:33:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:34:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:34:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:34:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:35:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:35:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:35:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:36:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:36:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:36:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:37:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:37:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:37:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:38:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:38:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:38:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:39:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:39:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:39:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:40:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:40:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:40:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:41:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:41:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:41:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:42:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:42:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:42:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:43:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:43:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:43:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:44:02 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:44:22 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:44:42 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:45:02 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:45:22 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:45:42 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:46:02 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:46:22 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:46:42 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:47:02 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:47:22 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:47:42 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:48:02 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:48:22 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:48:42 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:49:02 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:49:22 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:49:42 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:50:02 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:50:22 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:50:42 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:51:02 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:51:22 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:51:42 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:52:02 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:52:22 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:52:42 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:53:02 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:53:22 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:53:42 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:54:02 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:54:22 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:54:42 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:55:02 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:55:22 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:55:42 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:56:02 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:56:22 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:56:42 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:57:02 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:57:22 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:57:42 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:58:02 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:58:22 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:58:42 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:59:02 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:59:22 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:59:42 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:00:02 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:00:22 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:00:42 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:01:02 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:01:22 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:01:42 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:02:02 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:02:22 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:02:43 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:03:03 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:03:23 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:03:43 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:04:03 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:04:23 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:04:43 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:05:03 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:05:23 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:05:43 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:06:03 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:06:23 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:06:43 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:07:03 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:07:23 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:07:43 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:08:03 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:08:23 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:08:43 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:09:03 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:09:23 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:09:43 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:10:03 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:10:23 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:10:43 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:11:03 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:11:23 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:11:43 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:12:03 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:12:23 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:12:43 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:13:03 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:13:23 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:13:43 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:14:03 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:14:23 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:14:43 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:15:03 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:15:23 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:15:43 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:16:03 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:16:23 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:16:43 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:17:03 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:17:23 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:17:43 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:18:03 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:18:23 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:18:43 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:19:03 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:19:23 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:19:43 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:20:03 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:20:23 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:20:43 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:21:03 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:21:23 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:21:44 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:22:04 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:22:24 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:22:44 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:23:04 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:23:24 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:23:44 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:24:04 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:24:24 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:24:44 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:25:04 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:25:24 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:25:44 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:26:04 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:26:24 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:26:44 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:27:04 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:27:24 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:27:44 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:28:04 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:28:24 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:28:44 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:29:04 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:29:24 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:29:44 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:30:04 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:30:24 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:30:44 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:31:04 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:31:24 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:31:44 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:32:04 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:32:24 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:32:44 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:33:04 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:33:24 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:33:44 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:34:04 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:34:24 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:34:44 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:35:04 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:35:24 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:35:44 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:36:04 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:36:24 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:36:44 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:37:04 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:37:24 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:37:44 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:38:04 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:38:24 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:38:44 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:39:04 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:39:24 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:39:44 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:40:04 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:40:24 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:40:44 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:41:05 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:41:25 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:41:45 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:42:05 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:42:25 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:42:45 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:43:05 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:43:25 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:43:45 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:44:05 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:44:25 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:44:45 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:45:05 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:45:25 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:45:45 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:46:05 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:46:25 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:46:45 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:47:05 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:47:25 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:47:45 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:48:05 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:48:25 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:48:45 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:49:05 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:49:25 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:49:45 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:50:05 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:50:25 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:50:45 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:51:05 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:51:25 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:51:45 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:52:05 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:52:25 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:52:45 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:53:05 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:53:25 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:53:45 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:54:05 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:54:25 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:54:45 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:55:05 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:55:25 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:55:45 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:56:05 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:56:25 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:56:45 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:57:05 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:57:25 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:57:45 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:58:05 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:58:25 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:58:45 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:59:05 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:59:25 -!- esowiki has joined.
16:59:45 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:00:06 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:00:26 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:00:46 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:01:06 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:01:26 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:01:46 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:02:06 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:02:26 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:02:46 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:03:06 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:03:26 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:03:46 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:04:06 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:04:26 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:04:46 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:05:06 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:05:26 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:05:46 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:06:06 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:06:26 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:06:46 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:07:06 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:07:26 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:07:46 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:08:06 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:08:26 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:08:46 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:09:06 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:09:26 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:09:46 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:10:06 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:10:26 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:10:46 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:11:06 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:11:26 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:11:46 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:12:06 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:12:26 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:12:46 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:13:06 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:13:26 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:13:46 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:14:06 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:14:26 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:14:46 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:15:06 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:15:26 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:15:46 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:16:06 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:16:26 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:16:46 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:17:06 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:17:26 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:17:46 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:18:06 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:18:26 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:18:46 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:19:07 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:19:27 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:19:47 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:20:07 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:20:27 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:20:47 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:21:07 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:21:27 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:21:47 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:22:07 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:22:27 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:22:47 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:23:07 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:23:27 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:23:47 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:24:07 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:24:27 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:24:47 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:25:07 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:25:27 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:25:47 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:26:07 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:26:27 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:26:47 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:27:07 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:27:27 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:27:47 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:28:07 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:28:27 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:28:47 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:29:07 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:29:27 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:29:47 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:30:07 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:30:27 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:30:47 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:31:07 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:31:27 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:31:47 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:32:07 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:32:27 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:32:47 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:33:07 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:33:27 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:33:47 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:34:07 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:34:27 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:34:47 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:35:07 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:35:27 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:35:47 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:36:07 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:36:27 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:36:47 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:37:07 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:37:27 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:37:47 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:38:07 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:38:28 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:38:48 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:39:08 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:39:28 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:39:48 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:40:08 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:40:28 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:40:48 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:41:08 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:41:28 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:41:48 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:42:08 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:42:28 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:42:48 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:43:08 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:43:28 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:43:48 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:44:08 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:44:28 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:44:48 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:45:08 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:45:28 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:45:48 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:46:08 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:46:28 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:46:48 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:47:08 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:47:28 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:47:48 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:48:08 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:48:28 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:48:48 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:49:08 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:49:28 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:49:48 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:50:08 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:50:28 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:50:48 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:51:08 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:51:28 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:51:48 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:52:08 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:52:28 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:52:48 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:53:08 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:53:28 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:53:48 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:54:08 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:54:28 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:54:48 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:55:08 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:55:28 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:55:48 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:56:08 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:56:28 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:56:49 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:57:09 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:57:29 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:57:49 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:58:09 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:58:29 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:58:49 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:59:09 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:59:29 -!- esowiki has joined.
17:59:49 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:00:09 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:00:29 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:00:49 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:01:09 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:01:29 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:01:49 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:02:09 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:02:29 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:02:49 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:03:09 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:03:29 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:03:49 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:04:09 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:04:29 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:04:49 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:05:09 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:05:29 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:05:49 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:06:09 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:06:29 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:06:49 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:07:09 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:07:29 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:07:49 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:08:09 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:08:29 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:08:49 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:09:09 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:09:29 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:09:49 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:10:09 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:10:29 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:10:49 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:11:09 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:11:29 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:11:49 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:12:09 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:12:29 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:12:49 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:13:09 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:13:29 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:13:49 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:14:09 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:14:29 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:14:49 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:15:10 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:15:30 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:15:50 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:16:10 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:16:30 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:16:50 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:17:10 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:17:30 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:17:50 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:18:10 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:18:30 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:18:50 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:19:10 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:19:30 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:19:50 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:20:10 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:20:30 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:20:50 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:21:10 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:21:30 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:21:50 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:22:10 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:22:30 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:22:50 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:23:10 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:23:30 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:23:50 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:24:10 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:24:30 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:24:50 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:25:10 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:25:30 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:25:50 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:26:10 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:26:30 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:26:50 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:27:10 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:27:30 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:27:50 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:28:10 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:28:30 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:28:50 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:29:10 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:29:30 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:29:50 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:30:10 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:30:30 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:30:50 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:31:10 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:31:30 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:31:50 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:32:10 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:32:30 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:32:50 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:33:10 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:33:30 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:33:51 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:34:11 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:34:31 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:34:51 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:35:11 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:35:31 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:35:51 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:36:11 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:36:31 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:36:51 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:37:11 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:37:31 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:37:51 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:38:11 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:38:31 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:38:51 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:39:11 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:39:31 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:39:51 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:40:11 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:40:31 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:40:51 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:41:11 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:41:31 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:41:51 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:42:11 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:42:31 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:42:51 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:43:11 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:43:31 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:43:51 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:44:11 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:44:31 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:44:51 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:45:11 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:45:31 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:45:51 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:46:11 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:46:31 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:46:51 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:47:11 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:47:31 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:47:51 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:48:11 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:48:31 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:48:51 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:49:11 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:49:31 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:49:51 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:50:11 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:50:31 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:50:51 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:51:11 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:51:31 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:51:51 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:52:11 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:52:31 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:52:52 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:53:12 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:53:32 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:53:52 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:54:12 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:54:32 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:54:52 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:55:12 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:55:32 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:55:52 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:56:12 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:56:32 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:56:52 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:57:12 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:57:32 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:57:52 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:58:12 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:58:32 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:58:52 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:59:12 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:59:32 -!- esowiki has joined.
18:59:52 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:00:12 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:00:32 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:00:52 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:01:12 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:01:32 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:01:52 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:02:12 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:02:32 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:02:52 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:03:12 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:03:32 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:03:52 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:04:12 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:04:32 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:04:52 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:05:12 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:05:32 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:05:52 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:06:12 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:06:32 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:06:52 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:07:12 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:07:32 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:07:52 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:08:12 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:08:32 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:08:52 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:09:12 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:09:32 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:09:52 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:10:12 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:10:32 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:10:52 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:11:12 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:11:32 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:11:53 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:12:13 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:12:33 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:12:53 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:13:13 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:13:33 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:13:53 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:14:13 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:14:33 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:14:53 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:15:13 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:15:33 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:15:53 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:16:13 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:16:33 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:16:53 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:17:13 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:17:33 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:17:53 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:18:13 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:18:33 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:18:53 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:19:13 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:19:33 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:19:53 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:20:13 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:20:33 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:20:53 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:21:13 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:21:33 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:21:53 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:22:13 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:22:33 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:22:53 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:23:13 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:23:33 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:23:53 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:24:13 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:24:33 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:24:53 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:25:13 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:25:33 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:25:53 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:26:13 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:26:33 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:26:53 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:27:13 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:27:33 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:27:53 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:28:13 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:28:33 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:28:53 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:29:13 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:29:33 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:29:53 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:30:13 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:30:34 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:30:54 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:31:14 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:31:34 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:31:54 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:32:14 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:32:34 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:32:54 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:33:14 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:33:34 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:33:54 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:34:14 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:34:34 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:34:54 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:35:14 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:35:34 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:35:54 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:36:14 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:36:34 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:36:54 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:37:14 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:37:34 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:37:54 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:38:14 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:38:34 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:38:54 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:39:14 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:39:34 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:39:54 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:40:14 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:40:34 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:40:54 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:41:14 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:41:34 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:41:54 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:42:14 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:42:34 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:42:54 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:43:14 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:43:34 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:43:54 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:44:14 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:44:34 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:44:54 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:45:14 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:45:34 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:45:54 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:46:14 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:46:34 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:46:54 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:47:14 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:47:34 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:47:54 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:48:14 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:48:34 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:48:54 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:49:14 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:49:35 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:49:55 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:50:15 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:50:35 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:50:55 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:51:15 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:51:35 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:51:55 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:52:15 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:52:35 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:52:55 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:53:15 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:53:35 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:53:55 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:54:15 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:54:35 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:54:55 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:55:15 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:55:35 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:55:55 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:56:15 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:56:35 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:56:55 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:57:15 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:57:35 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:57:55 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:58:15 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:58:35 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:58:55 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:59:15 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:59:35 -!- esowiki has joined.
19:59:55 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:00:15 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:00:35 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:00:55 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:01:15 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:01:35 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:01:55 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:02:15 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:02:35 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:02:55 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:03:15 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:03:35 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:03:55 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:04:15 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:04:35 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:04:55 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:05:15 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:05:35 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:05:55 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:06:15 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:06:35 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:06:55 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:07:15 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:07:35 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:07:55 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:08:15 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:08:35 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:08:56 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:09:16 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:09:36 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:09:56 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:10:16 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:10:36 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:10:56 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:11:16 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:11:36 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:11:56 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:12:16 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:12:36 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:12:56 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:13:16 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:13:36 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:13:56 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:14:16 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:14:36 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:14:56 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:15:16 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:15:36 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:15:56 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:16:16 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:16:36 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:16:56 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:17:16 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:17:36 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:17:56 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:18:16 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:18:36 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:18:56 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:19:16 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:19:36 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:19:56 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:20:16 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:20:36 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:20:56 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:21:16 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:21:36 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:21:56 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:22:16 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:22:36 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:22:56 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:23:16 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:23:36 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:23:56 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:24:16 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:24:36 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:24:56 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:25:16 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:25:36 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:25:56 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:26:16 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:26:36 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:26:56 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:27:16 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:27:36 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:27:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:28:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:28:37 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:28:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:29:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:29:37 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:29:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:30:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:30:37 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:30:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:31:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:31:37 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:31:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:32:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:32:37 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:32:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:33:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:33:37 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:33:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:34:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:34:37 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:34:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:35:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:35:37 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:35:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:36:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:36:37 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:36:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:37:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:37:37 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:37:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:38:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:38:37 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:38:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:39:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:39:37 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:39:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:40:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:40:37 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:40:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:41:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:41:37 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:41:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:42:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:42:37 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:42:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:43:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:43:37 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:43:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:44:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:44:37 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:44:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:45:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:45:37 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:45:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:46:17 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:46:37 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:46:57 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:47:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:47:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:47:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:48:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:48:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:48:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:49:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:49:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:49:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:50:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:50:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:50:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:51:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:51:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:51:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:52:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:52:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:52:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:53:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:53:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:53:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:54:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:54:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:54:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:55:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:55:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:55:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:56:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:56:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:56:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:57:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:57:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:57:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:58:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:58:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:58:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:59:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:59:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
20:59:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:00:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:00:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:00:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:01:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:01:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:01:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:02:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:02:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:02:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:03:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:03:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:03:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:04:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:04:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:04:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:05:18 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:05:38 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:05:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:06:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:06:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:06:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:07:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:07:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:07:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:08:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:08:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:08:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:09:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:09:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:09:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:10:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:10:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:10:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:11:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:11:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:11:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:12:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:12:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:12:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:13:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:13:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:13:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:14:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:14:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:14:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:15:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:15:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:15:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:16:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:16:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:16:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:17:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:17:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:17:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:18:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:18:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:18:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:19:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:19:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:19:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:20:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:20:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:20:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:21:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:21:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:21:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:22:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:22:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:22:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:23:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:23:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:23:59 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:24:19 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:24:39 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:25:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:25:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:25:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:26:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:26:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:26:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:27:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:27:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:27:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:28:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:28:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:28:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:29:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:29:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:29:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:30:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:30:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:30:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:31:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:31:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:31:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:32:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:32:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:32:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:33:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:33:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:33:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:34:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:34:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:34:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:35:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:35:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:35:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:36:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:36:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:36:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:37:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:37:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:37:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:38:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:38:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:38:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:39:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:39:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:39:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:40:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:40:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:40:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:41:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:41:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:41:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:42:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:42:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:42:40 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:43:00 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:43:20 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:43:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:44:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:44:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:44:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:45:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:45:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:45:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:46:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:46:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:46:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:47:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:47:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:47:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:48:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:48:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:48:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:49:01 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:49:21 -!- esowiki has joined.
21:49:41 -!- esowiki has joined.
00:15:55 -!- copumpkin has joined.
00:19:52 -!- cheater- has joined.
00:22:59 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:26:11 <Vorpal> <ais523> #feather-lang <ais523> heh, Vorpal's still there, as well <-- of course
00:33:09 -!- iamcal has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:58:51 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:00:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
01:02:26 <Lymia> pikhq, and there's a chance Microsoft wouldn't be suing alone?
01:16:42 <pikhq> Lymia: It'd be easy to make it a class action.
01:27:31 <Gregor> Wow, the other guy on the ld-linux.so auction actually bid :P
01:28:42 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:29:12 -!- wareya has joined.
01:42:15 <Sgeo> Gregor, bidding started?
01:42:19 <Sgeo> How's libc.so doing?
01:42:26 <Gregor> libc.so's auction has not started.
01:42:58 <oerjan> Gregor: so have you managed to get any of them yet?
01:43:11 <Gregor> None of the auctions have ended either.
01:53:21 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:55:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
01:59:50 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:02:06 -!- variable has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:23:51 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:26:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
02:28:19 <Lymia> Gregor, you troll.
02:31:14 -!- Sgeo has joined.
02:33:00 -!- variable has joined.
02:45:42 <zzo38> I have implemented in TeX, the Zeller's Card method for day of week. Now I will implement the date for Easter, as well.
02:46:47 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
02:47:43 -!- lament has joined.
02:51:48 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
02:52:24 <oerjan> lament: i don't know who vixey is
02:52:31 <zzo38> lament: I don't know?
02:52:43 <lament> oerjan: misspiggy is another nick
02:52:58 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
02:53:07 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
02:53:08 <oerjan> hm i think misspiggy is one of j-invariant's nicks, yes
02:54:02 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:54:30 <Lymia> http://bash.org/?577451
02:54:31 <oerjan> of those nicks, only j-invariant is currently registered
02:56:10 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
02:57:28 <Sgeo> I thought MissPiggy == fax?
02:58:13 <lament> she uses a lot of nicks
02:58:21 <lament> mostly for ban evasion reasons, i think
02:58:53 <oerjan> well he ran away from here recently just for being revealed...
02:59:32 <lament> she's definitely a girl
03:00:28 <oerjan> iirc it's much more complicated than that
03:03:26 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:03:29 -!- pikhq has joined.
03:04:41 <oerjan> i vaguely recall someone said she exploded from being called a girl, once.
03:07:33 <Gregor> Maybe that's not because she's a he, but because an adult female is a "woman" :P
03:14:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:15:01 <variable> Gregor: I just found your color picking thing
03:15:34 <Sgeo> <3 Vulture music
03:16:29 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
03:20:09 <augur> it is much more complicated, in some boring fashion, or something
03:20:36 <Sgeo> My childhood memories!
03:20:52 <Sgeo> 's music is butchering my memories!
03:21:54 <Sgeo> And VLC is butchering its predictions of how long music lasts
03:22:20 <Sgeo> instruments.xm
03:22:49 <Sgeo> Something that tells some.. thingy what each instrument should sound like? Like a soundfont?
03:26:42 <Gregor> Old data is back in glogbot btw
03:27:04 -!- Lymia has set topic: THIS TOPIC INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK | Democratic capitalist history of the God Blesséd United States of America: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | Antifederalist punditry: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
03:27:09 -!- Lymia has set topic: THIS TOPIC IS INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK | Democratic capitalist history of the God Blesséd United States of America: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | Antifederalist punditry: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
03:27:41 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
03:28:43 * Sgeo has a question about copyright
03:29:11 <Gregor> It's evil, don't do it.
03:29:25 <Sgeo> If someone takes a game under the NetHack GPL and adds music to it, will that music also be under the NetHack GPL?
03:29:44 -!- pingveno has joined.
03:29:50 <Sgeo> "cause the whole of any work that you distribute or publish, that in
03:29:50 <Sgeo> whole or in part contains or is a derivative of NetHack or any part
03:29:50 <Sgeo> thereof, to be licensed at no charge to all third parties on terms
03:29:50 <Sgeo> identical to those contained in this License Agreement (except that you
03:29:50 <Sgeo> may choose to grant more extensive warranty protection to some or all
03:29:50 <Sgeo> third parties, at your option)"
03:30:07 <Sgeo> That looks like a yes. I think
03:30:19 <Gregor> There attempts to explain the GPL do not actually change the effect of the GPL.
03:30:26 <Gregor> Including music is mere aggregation, and so not covered.
03:31:03 <Sgeo> NetHack GPL, not GNU GPL
03:31:55 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
03:32:13 <Gregor> Oh, well I don't know the NetHack GPL :P
03:32:24 <Sgeo> http://www.nethack.org/common/license.html
03:32:35 <Gregor> tunes: 14:24:49 <Gregor> OK, /now/ it shouldn't be so screwy :P
03:32:36 <Gregor> glogbot: 22:13:25: <Gregor> OK, /now/ it shouldn't be so screwy :P
03:32:45 <Gregor> HAVE FUN FIGURING OUT THEM TIMEZONES
03:34:08 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
03:34:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Changing host).
03:34:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
03:34:32 <Sgeo> http://falconseye.sourceforge.net/
03:34:43 <Sgeo> Falcon's Eye is also distributed under the NetHack GPL
03:35:10 <Sgeo> The music in Vulture's Eye are all derivative works of the falcon's Eye music
03:48:33 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
03:50:29 <Sgeo> instruments.xm is actually playable
03:50:44 <Sgeo> It sounds like a ... hollow wood instrument, followed by lots of silence
03:55:21 -!- cal153 has joined.
03:55:35 <Sgeo> Seeking to anywhere else causes the tone to play again
03:55:39 <Sgeo> Then more silence
03:58:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
04:27:12 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:36:36 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:43:06 -!- zzo38 has joined.
05:14:26 <zzo38> Interwoven alignment preambles are not allowed O NO
05:41:11 -!- asiekierka has joined.
05:58:39 <zzo38> How many fortnights are there in a square kilogram?
06:06:24 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
06:24:43 <pikhq> zzo38: Error: does not type.
07:24:03 -!- Slereah has joined.
07:31:07 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
07:34:04 <zzo38> Now I can include not only the Julian and Gregorian calendar, but also the Discordian calendar.
07:36:32 <zzo38> Discordian calendar is a 5 of 73 calendar.
07:37:16 <Zwaarddijk> could at the very least have the leap years out of phase
07:39:09 <zzo38> You can find on Wikipedia, various calendar including the one with the leap years out of phase.
07:42:25 <Zwaarddijk> the point I was making was: I'd've expected the discordians to have a funnier calendar than that
07:57:01 <zzo38> I am making calendar program in TeX, so if you have other idea, I can add them in, too.
08:03:41 -!- cheater99 has joined.
08:04:41 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
08:12:57 * pikhq finally freaking watched "The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya"
08:13:07 <pikhq> That was good, but *absurdly* long.
08:13:50 <pikhq> Seriously, I think the LotR films were shorter.
08:22:33 <zzo38> Do you like daylight saving time? I don't like.
08:23:15 <pikhq> I absolutely despise it.
08:31:05 <zzo38> What is the calculation for the phase of moon by dates?
08:51:01 <Ilari> Oh, yeah, DST BS (Soon here).
08:53:39 <zzo38> In my area is currently DST. I do not like DST system.
08:54:45 <zzo38> I got the program to work for calculating date for Easter Sunday.
08:56:01 <Ilari> And then there's the automated DST logic. Messes things up if it has the wrong date. And sometimes messes things up even if it has... Making system clock observe DST is absolutely retarded and asking for trouble.
08:57:43 <Ilari> I had to force system timzone to UTC in order to make it keep system clock sane. And then force user account timezone to correct value.
08:58:05 <Ilari> Otherwise DST transition just plain messes up things.
09:01:39 <Ilari> And who thought DST was a good idea? Especially in the present situation? :-/
09:13:03 <zzo38> I don't know who made up DST. I also think it is bad idea, but some people I know like it, even if I tell them I don't like it and think it should be abolished.
09:21:11 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
09:26:56 -!- cheater99 has joined.
09:33:03 -!- quintopia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:33:12 -!- quintopia has joined.
09:47:52 <Vorpal> hm I need ais523 or elliott now...
09:48:05 <Vorpal> hm who else might know...
09:48:22 <zzo38> Need to know... what?
09:48:30 <Vorpal> zzo38, advice on memtest results.
09:48:38 <fizzie> Sort of here, but pretty busy.
09:49:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, well quick question: new HP laptop (setting it up for my dad who bought it). Ran memtest the night before yesterday, found a single error. Been running memtest since then, no more errors. Something like 50 passes so far...
09:50:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, what to do: call HP support and complain or assume it was a random cosmic ray?
09:50:30 <zzo38> Call HP support and ask them if they know anything about random cosmic rays.
09:50:52 <Vorpal> I don't think that is very sensible... At least not when stated like that
09:51:20 <fizzie> It could have been a random bit-flip, I guess: I mean, there must be a reason they sell ECC memory.
09:51:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes indeed. It wrote 1010101... pattern but read out all zeros according to the message memtest gave me.
09:52:16 <Vorpal> which seems somewhat non-random somehow
09:52:22 <fizzie> Hm, that's perhaps curiouser.
09:52:23 <zzo38> In which cases was it plugged in? And what battery states? Are these things important sometimes?
09:58:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, actually it seems it was two errors. I misread the addresses as it being a 16 bit area that was affected but there is actually a gap between the two messages hm. Small gap (0x...618 and 0x...61c) but still.
10:00:17 <zzo38> Does it store the addresses and testing information in registers or in memory?
10:01:32 <zzo38> I am just curious to know, that is alll.
10:01:45 <Vorpal> memtest86+ is open source I think, you could check it out
10:03:09 <Vorpal> took a photo of the error earlier: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/tmp/memtest.jpg
10:06:21 <zzo38> They have computers at Free Geek which are only used for RAM testing (using memtest86+), and they share a single keyboard and monitor. For that purpose, I would have it a bit different. Put the memory testing program in ROM and have it use registers for status information, displaying status on a POST code or a LED connected to the PC speaker or something like that
10:07:39 <Vorpal> probably but rom is unpractical. And expensive
10:08:00 <Vorpal> cheaper to use NOR flash probably
10:08:22 <Vorpal> or EPROM if they still make those
10:09:04 <Vorpal> need to support execute in place of course
10:10:51 <zzo38> Yes, it does not have to be actual ROM, it could be NOR or EPROM or whatever.
10:12:23 <Vorpal> wait a second... does that screenshot indicate ECC?
10:12:39 <Vorpal> if so, that's even more confusing...
10:18:26 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:42:35 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
10:50:56 -!- Slereah has joined.
11:30:21 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
11:35:25 -!- cheater00 has joined.
11:37:32 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
11:38:52 -!- Slereah has joined.
11:43:55 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
11:49:46 -!- Slereah has joined.
12:02:52 -!- FireFly has joined.
12:18:42 -!- sftp has joined.
12:24:03 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:24:26 -!- oerjan has joined.
12:24:31 -!- FireFly has joined.
12:38:51 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
12:39:42 <Ilari> Vorpal: As far as I can see, nope, ECC doesn't seem to be enabled.
12:45:20 -!- Slereah has joined.
12:50:13 <Vorpal> Ilari, it was that line about "ECC : Detect / Correct" that made me wonder
12:50:36 <Vorpal> or maybe that just means the chipset supports ECC
13:06:49 -!- cheater- has joined.
13:08:53 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
13:16:32 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:27:22 -!- asiekierka has joined.
13:27:36 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
13:30:25 <Gregor> Not having Internet access at home: pretty great.
13:33:08 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
13:33:10 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
13:38:07 -!- augur has joined.
13:57:59 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
13:58:26 -!- copumpkin has joined.
14:12:34 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
14:21:36 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
14:36:11 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
14:36:52 -!- copumpkin has joined.
14:45:21 <Gregor> Because my ISP is made of fail?
14:45:31 <Vorpal> Gregor, so any ETA on the issues?
14:45:58 <Vorpal> Gregor, also hm, I know the US phone market is weird, so this might not be a viable option over there... But couldn't you do tethering for now?
14:46:48 <Gregor> Yes, but that does not give me 100% uptime of my home computer since my phone does not stay at home.
14:58:59 <Gregor> glogbot's rsyncd is now active.
15:00:03 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
15:01:01 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:13:41 -!- Mannerisky has joined.
15:19:36 <ais523> haha, Duke Nukem Forever was just delayed again
15:20:26 <Vorpal> ais523, wait what, wasn't it abandoned officially some time ago I thought?
15:20:32 <fizzie> Just one more month or so: does that even count any more?
15:20:47 <ais523> Vorpal: it was, but someone else bought the rights to it and decided to finish it
15:20:57 <ais523> fizzie: well, it's still amusing
15:21:09 <ais523> for some reason, when it was finally given a release date, I assumed it'd stick to that release date
15:21:24 <Vorpal> ais523, the name is haunted
15:21:41 <Vorpal> it will take forever. As it says
15:21:46 <ais523> the reason it was taking so long was because it was repeatedly ported from engine to engine
15:21:48 <Gregor> ais523: I'm going to make a bold Scapegoat statement: Calculating the tip is not useful.
15:22:13 <ais523> Gregor: I think it depends on how you define a repository
15:22:20 <ais523> it clearly isn't useful if you're purely whitelisting
15:22:34 <ais523> except if someone else wants to pull from your repository, and yours currently contains a conflict
15:24:56 <ais523> also, wow, I deleted a page on Esolang that wasn't spambot-created
15:25:06 <ais523> (it was created at the wrong title by its author, and then recreated at a different location)
15:25:16 <fizzie> Anyway, 3D Realms (who were developing it) did fire the development team, and got sued (and settled out of court) by Take-Two, who owned the publishing rights, for not managing to deliver them a game.
15:31:50 <fizzie> They did make a rather amusing and non-serious video about the latest delay, though, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VFFR-5a-Ko
15:43:18 -!- lament has joined.
15:46:42 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.01: 4k+2k to Australia, 4k+1k+/32 to Japan, 1k+2x/32 to Malaysia, 32k to Thailand, 64k to China, 64k+/32 to India.
15:46:54 <Ilari> ... Slow week apparently.
15:49:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:58:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:00:37 -!- cheater00 has joined.
16:02:35 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
16:10:05 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
16:15:31 -!- lament has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
16:16:25 -!- azaq23 has joined.
16:17:27 -!- Sgeo has joined.
16:20:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (Client Quit).
16:23:30 -!- HackEgo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:24:22 -!- HackEgo has joined.
16:31:00 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
16:36:41 -!- asiekierka has joined.
16:42:58 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:43:07 -!- asiekierka has joined.
16:59:30 -!- cal153 has joined.
17:10:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:23:15 <Ilari> Picking some semi-random assumptions I get April 18th for APNIC depletion date. Of course, that estimate assumes some questionable assumptions.
17:25:51 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
17:28:47 -!- impomatic has joined.
17:37:41 -!- pumpkin has joined.
17:39:36 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:06:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:06:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:08:09 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:35:36 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:49:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:49:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:53:15 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
19:07:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:15:56 -!- copumpkin has joined.
19:15:56 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
19:15:57 -!- copumpkin has joined.
19:19:28 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:21:53 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
19:24:11 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
19:25:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:26:13 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
19:26:16 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:26:38 -!- azaq23 has joined.
19:27:25 -!- variable has joined.
19:29:41 <Phantom__Hoover> [[Alex Smith, an electrical and computer engineering undergraduate, first heard about the prize in an internet chatroom earlier this year.]]
19:30:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:30:34 -!- variable has quit (Max SendQ exceeded).
19:43:43 <pikhq_> Duke Nukem Forever delayed again. XD
19:58:47 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:40:29 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:43:03 <Phantom__Hoover> Hmm, apparently there have been sexual harassment cases in which the defendant escaped a harassment verdict by harassing both males and females.
20:45:49 <pikhq_> I know of no reason to believe that the harasser isn't bisexual.
20:46:00 <pikhq_> Or even asexual and just likes making people uncomfortable. Sexually.
21:13:37 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:14:53 <Gregor> Or straight or gay and just likes making people sexually uncomfortable.
21:20:50 -!- pumpkin has joined.
21:24:25 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:49:19 <Phantom__Hoover> <pikhq_> Duke Nukem Forever delayed again. XD ← DUKE NEVER COMES EARLY
21:54:31 <Gregor> Having Internet at home again: So much better than the alternative.
22:00:16 <Gregor> Phantom__Hoover: ... not having Internet at home. Duh.
22:03:56 <Phantom__Hoover> OTOH I'm only 16, so there's plenty of time for them to exact their revenge.
22:05:46 -!- cpressey has joined.
22:06:15 <Phantom__Hoover> Is it bad that I knew it was you the moment I saw "Illinois" in your hostname/
22:07:11 <cpressey> As long as you pronounce it "ill-a-noise" in your head, everything's fine.
22:09:11 <Phantom__Hoover> I used to think it was "illowwanis" for some reason, but then Barack Obama ran for president.
22:10:11 <cpressey> Phantom__Hoover: so what's with the "dunder"?
22:10:37 <cpressey> Oh, I'm so evil. I said that just to make you say that.
22:10:44 -!- sftp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:10:58 <cpressey> "Dunder" is slang for "double underscore" in... certain communities which shall go unnamed.
22:11:11 <cpressey> Who use double underscores a lot.
22:12:00 -!- Phantom__Hoover has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
22:12:28 <Phantom_Hoover> UD gives "dunder" as "dirty underwear", but that's neither here nor there.
22:13:43 <cpressey> So, there should be 3 new languages in the next release of yoob, if I ever find the time: brainfuck, Befunge-93 and Ypsilax.
22:14:31 <cpressey> I mean, they're all basically implemented -- if I can ever find the time to actually release them.
22:15:15 <cpressey> Little stuff like letting you enter an ASCII NUL so you can convince brainfuck that input is at EOF.
22:26:00 <cpressey> I like how "beg the question" has been completely diluted as an idiom. Every time I've seen it used recently, it's just been another way of saying "raises the question".
22:26:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, damn people, using the meaning that makes sense.
22:28:16 <cpressey> And yeah, occurences of "begging the question" with its old-school meaning are pretty rare.
22:28:31 <cpressey> I mean, of things where it makes sense to describe them that way
22:28:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Begging the question in the old-school way is effectively just asking a leading question, isn't it?
22:30:27 <cpressey> In debating, "begging the question" refers to a chain of reasoning based on the assumption (possibly hidden) that the conclusion is true to begin with.
22:32:03 <cpressey> Oh, I see Wikipedia agrees with me on that, good.
22:35:12 <cpressey> Although perhaps I misspoke about it being rare. I don't know, I think blatant circular reasoning you don't see often, but maybe there's more subtly circular argument out there than I'm acknowledging, I dunno.
22:36:43 -!- sftp has joined.
22:38:35 <pikhq_> cpressey: Perhaps you only pay attention to rational discourse.
22:40:25 <cpressey> I do tend to have a hard time maintaining attention on what people are saying when it's clearly garbage, and there does seem to be an awful lot of that out there, yes.
22:40:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:57:09 <zzo38> There is the ASCII phase of moon, it has "GREENCHEESE" on it. gopher://gopher4.intercal.org.uk:70/0moon
22:59:47 <cpressey> TIL Gnome Terminal does not allow you to navigate to gopher:// URLs by right-clicking on them.
23:00:03 <cpressey> That's some impressive GREENCHEESE though.
23:00:09 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:09:07 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:15:16 <Gregor> http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2011-03-24/ <-- hey guys, remember how Dilbert is far funnier and overall more tolerable than XKCD?
23:19:44 -!- pumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
23:21:16 <zzo38> Now you can type \First\Tue\Feb and \Jan30 \AfterOn\Sat and stuff like that.
23:24:11 -!- FireFly has joined.
23:26:03 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:31:14 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:41:04 -!- variable has joined.
23:55:21 <zzo38> Is the calculation of Easter a part of Canadian law?
23:55:59 <oerjan> i'd imagine canada does it in the standard way for western christianity...
23:56:48 <zzo38> oerjan: It is on the same day that is Western Christianity, but that is not what I am asking.
23:58:07 <Slereah> http://img.lulz.net/src/2.jpg
23:58:44 -!- copumpkin has joined.
23:58:51 <oerjan> that's his hand blowing up, i assume
00:00:15 <zzo38> Easter is a statutory holiday. But if the calculation of Easter (a Canadian statutory holiday) is not part of Canadian law, then we do not have separation of church and state.
00:01:32 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:02:06 <oerjan> that's sounds like a rather insignificant non-separation compared to having easter a statutory holiday in the first place.
00:03:05 <oerjan> (norway has easter a statutory holiday too, but then we don't have separation of church and state, yet)
00:03:24 <pikhq_> zzo38: You already don't possess seperation of church and state.
00:05:23 <pikhq_> zzo38: In case you weren't aware, your country operates under the legal theory that all power comes from monarchy, and the power in the monarch comes from God.
00:05:25 <zzo38> I have no problem with making such things statutory holidays, even with such names, but the law should simply say something like "This day shall be a statutory holiday, named "_____" in English and "_____" in French."
00:06:13 <zzo38> pikhq_: Well, at least is the theory, but the government does the stuff not the queen. The queen though, is still queen and is on the money.
00:06:34 <pikhq_> zzo38: The government has power delegated unto it by the queen.
00:07:05 <pikhq_> All actions of your government, hence, are in a sense acting in the name of God.
00:07:33 <zzo38> At least those things are theory. But for actual laws, it should have separation of church and state; regardless of the religions of the government or of other things.
00:08:30 <pikhq_> *In practice*, yes, there is seperation of church and state.
00:08:57 <pikhq_> Of course, *in practice* almost every single country in Europe has some level of such seperation these days.
00:09:47 <zzo38> The government once tried to do it by renaming "Christmas Day" to "Gifting Season", but that is the wrong way to do it! The correct way is to just write "Twenty-fifth day of December is statutory holiday". The name of the holiday should be irrelevant for legal purposes, but write it in anyways simply for tradition, it has no actual legal meaning other than refering to that specific date.
00:10:00 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:10:09 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:10:16 <pikhq> (exception: Stato della Città del Vaticano, which is of course a *unification* of church and state)
00:11:54 <Sgeo> o.O at Mussolini's involvement in Vatican City
00:12:22 <pikhq> Sgeo: Also, remember: Hitler died a Catholic in good standing.
00:13:03 <oerjan> erm, isn't suicide a rather bad sin in catholicism :D
00:13:06 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:13:24 <oerjan> and you cannot get proper confession etc. after doing it...
00:14:03 <oerjan> (ok i'm only guessing on the "rather bad" part)
00:15:28 <zzo38> Of course you cannot, because you are dead. I do not care whether it is a "rather bad" sin in Catholicism, to me the thing is that live people still have things to do.
00:15:39 <oerjan> i guess he wasn't explicitly excommunicated though.
00:16:24 <oerjan> zzo38: um we are (well, i am) discussing what it means to be a "catholic in good standing". clearly that requires looking at it from catholicism's point of view.
00:17:06 <oerjan> although i recall from wikipedia there is a concept of automatic excommunication for some sins, even if no one else knows about them
00:17:55 <oerjan> (again of course this doesn't matter much to anyone who doesn't actually _want_ to be a good catholic)
00:18:21 -!- jcp has joined.
00:18:26 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latae_sententiae
00:18:59 <zzo38> I could try to figure out what is "Catholic in good standing", and what thing is "bad standing".
00:20:47 <Sgeo> An abortion is an automatic ex-communication?
00:21:11 <Sgeo> Yet murder isn't...
00:22:55 <Sgeo> [exemptions for:] 2/ a person who without negligence was ignorant that he or she violated a law or precept; inadvertence and error are equivalent to ignorance;
00:23:38 <Sgeo> Is it negligence to not seek out information on the Church's view of abortion?
00:24:08 <Sgeo> Is it ignorance to hear some Catholic saying "abortion means ex-communication", but assume that they're mistaken or lying?
00:24:19 <tswett> Always ready, always Lawlabee. Strength, safety, style, Lawlabee. Lawlabee in action. Lawlabee for beauty to have and to hold.
00:24:27 <tswett> Gregor: forgive my groveling.
00:24:52 <zzo38> Do you think either of abortion or murder is ex-communication?
00:25:20 <oerjan> Sgeo: i'd imagine that after hearing it said, it would be negligence not to check further whether it is true...
00:26:12 <Sgeo> zzo38, I'm just going by what Wikipedia says
00:26:30 <oerjan> Sgeo: i'd also imagine the case of abortion has been made that strict precisely because the church has trouble getting all its members to agree with it, which is not the case with murder
00:46:28 -!- cheater- has joined.
00:49:32 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
01:03:22 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
01:16:11 <zzo38> In an interview with the person who invented INTERCAL, they described "a hypothetical computer described to me long ago by a co-worker who was a part-time professor at Northeastern University", which is now known as BitBitJump (I think).
01:49:56 -!- cal153 has joined.
02:07:06 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:08:05 -!- wareya has joined.
02:17:31 <pikhq> Oh, *wow*. In the name of getting men "home to their wives" earlier, Australia put a 6 PM closing time on bars.
02:17:51 <pikhq> What this actually produced was a solid hour of binge drinking between work getting out and the bars closing.
02:28:34 <pikhq> Well, if you only have an hour of legal drinking outside of the home, you might as well make it count.
02:29:22 <Gregor> I was "lolwut"ting more at the notion that Australia would set a mandatory bar closing time at all, let alone 6PM :P
02:30:02 <pikhq> The "ZOMG MUST GET RID OF ALCOHOL" thing was prevalent in much of the Western world.
02:31:10 <pikhq> And tended to make shit worse overall.
02:31:35 <pikhq> WWI and Great Depression era.
02:44:32 <pikhq> Possible GOP Presidential candidates: Michelle Bachmann, Donald Trump, Sarah Palin, Mitt Romney, Newt Gingrich, Mike Huckabee.
02:45:10 <pikhq> I do believe that Obama would have to rape babies and then serve baby au jus in order to lose.
02:48:50 * pikhq will grab the popcorn
02:54:45 -!- glogbot has quit (*.net *.split).
02:54:47 -!- ineiros has quit (*.net *.split).
02:54:48 -!- wareya has quit (*.net *.split).
02:54:51 -!- Vorpal has quit (*.net *.split).
02:54:53 -!- tswett has quit (*.net *.split).
02:54:53 -!- Deewiant has quit (*.net *.split).
02:54:55 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (*.net *.split).
02:54:56 -!- Ilari has quit (*.net *.split).
02:55:08 <Gregor> GLOGBOT IS ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE NETSPLIT
02:55:31 <Sgeo> I saw a Serenity spoiler
02:55:43 <Sgeo> I think it might just be the focus of the entire movie, finding it out
02:56:06 <oerjan> Sgeo: i'm sorry but elliott isn't here to give a suitably ironic response.
02:57:46 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:57:53 -!- glogbot has joined.
02:57:53 -!- ineiros has joined.
03:00:45 -!- wareya has joined.
03:00:45 -!- Vorpal has joined.
03:00:45 -!- tswett has joined.
03:00:45 -!- Deewiant has joined.
03:00:45 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined.
03:00:45 -!- Ilari has joined.
03:13:31 <Sgeo> Spoiler revealed with 30 min left, so maybe at least 30min will be enjoyable
03:13:42 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
03:16:45 -!- lament has joined.
03:27:10 -!- zzo38 has joined.
03:27:49 -!- zzo38 has set topic: THIS TOPIC FAILS AT BEING BLANK | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
03:43:01 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
03:48:30 -!- zzo38 has joined.
03:48:38 <zzo38> Is it broken server?
03:49:26 <zzo38> Is it broken server?
03:55:35 <zzo38> What are special days and observances in different countries?
03:58:13 <zzo38> I live in Canada and do not know the one for other countries, I should type it in since I am making a calendar program
03:58:54 <zzo38> lament: There is no 31 day in April.
03:59:58 <lament> what about leap years?
04:00:15 <zzo38> Then there is 29 day in February.
04:00:37 <zzo38> At least, is how it works in this country.
04:03:10 <pikhq> zzo38: Shōwa Day, in Japan, is April 29.
04:03:36 <pikhq> (first day of Golden Week)
04:06:11 <zzo38> OK, I added that, now if you type \Japan it will add that to the list of special days on the calendar
04:06:40 <pikhq> Heck, just hit Wikipedia; its list is likely comprehensive.
04:08:24 <zzo38> Are there any other kind of days that needs special calculation, other than Easter Sunday and the days relative to Easter Sunday?
04:08:53 <pikhq> Just about anything astronomical in origin, really.
04:09:14 <pikhq> For instance: Japan has the two equinoxes as holidays.
04:09:17 <oerjan> all the jewish and islamic holidays, since they're based on the respective calendars...
04:09:44 <pikhq> And Orthodox versions of Christian holidays.
04:09:45 <oerjan> oh and chinese new year probably
04:10:04 <zzo38> And phase of moon, I also need, although that isn't the "special days", I should still add a macro to calculate the phase of moon.
04:10:27 <zzo38> Yes I know Orthodox Easter is different, what is the difference in its calculation?
04:10:37 <oerjan> zzo38: also there are national days. basically there are at least thousands of special cases to consider.
04:10:47 <pikhq> Orthodox Christianity does not use the Gregorian calendar; they use the Julian calendar.
04:11:31 <zzo38> Then it is a good thing I already have added support for the Julian calendar (just type \julian to activate it).
04:12:05 <pikhq> Though the laity use Gregorian calendars, except they celebrate the holidays according to the date on the Julian calendar.
04:12:12 <oerjan> i also think not all orthodox christians use the same rule for calculating easter, even given julian calendar
04:12:19 <zzo38> Does the Zeller's Card method work correctly for Orthodox Easter?
04:12:43 <pikhq> oerjan: Quite possible; Orthodox Christianity is a set of sects, after all.
04:12:48 <zzo38> Well, you can type \julian \Easter \gregorian and then you will get the date of Julian Easter but using the Gregorian calendar.
04:13:13 <Gregor> Frankly I don't see it as being worth this much effort to adapt for idiots.
04:13:30 <zzo38> pikhq: How many sects are there and which ones are common that I should add to this program?
04:14:17 <pikhq> *Insofar as I am aware*, they merely use the Julian calendar instead of the Gregorian calendar for the dates of religious holidays.
04:14:23 <zzo38> And also all the other days requring special calculation (including other countries), can you tell me how it is calculated, so that they can be included in the calendar?
04:14:43 <pikhq> There's an absurd number of special cases, and I certainly don't know them all.
04:15:10 <pikhq> Though some of them are genuinely absurd cases, regardless.
04:15:39 <oerjan> at least norwegian official holidays are either fixed gregorian dates or offsets from easter.
04:16:04 <pikhq> For instance, Chinese traditional holidays are based on dates on a lunar calendar that is otherwise unused.
04:16:31 <zzo38> pikhq: If they merely use the Julian calendar for calculating dates of religious holidays, then my program should do that, since it can already calculate Julian Easter (and then you can switch back to Gregorian mode after the calculation).
04:17:15 <zzo38> oerjan: Then Norwegian holidays should be easy to put in
04:19:07 <pikhq> Also, Japan has the Emperor's birthday as a holiday. The only way to correctly handle that going forward is constant maintanence, and in the past, well, you'll want to read the Kojiki. :P
04:19:09 <zzo38> I am using the slight modification of the Zeller's Card method for days of the week and for Easter, and it works with both Julian and Gregorian. I have also found a implementation in Javascript that will check what errors there are, and the method with minor correction works for everything.
04:19:37 <oerjan> oh and even the us has that presidents' day iirc
04:19:56 <pikhq> oerjan: That's just a holiday that's in honor of past presidents.
04:20:01 <oerjan> well norway has royal birthdays too...
04:20:12 <pikhq> It's *Washington's* birthday, though.
04:20:21 <oerjan> pikhq: no not that way, i mean it's not a fixed gregorian date is it
04:20:28 <pikhq> Well, actually, it's vaguely near then.
04:20:36 <pikhq> oerjan: No, it's the third Monday of February.
04:20:56 <zzo38> I do have the command for third Monday of February and stuff like that, typing in \Third\Mon\Feb will do that.
04:21:06 <oerjan> oh right norway has those too, mother's and father's day are like that
04:21:15 <oerjan> (they're not official holidays though)
04:21:25 <pikhq> *Most* US federal holidays are on a Monday.
04:22:04 <zzo38> In Canada, Thanksgiving is on \Second\Mon\Oct (different than Thanksgiving in United States)
04:22:24 <pikhq> Yeah, US Thanksgiving is the fourth Thursday in November, instead.
04:22:30 <pikhq> For... No good reason in either case.
04:22:46 <zzo38> Then why is it like that if there is no reason?
04:22:59 <pikhq> There is a reason.
04:23:09 <pikhq> Merchants wanted it then.
04:23:21 <pikhq> Because Christmas was coming.
05:16:23 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
05:18:31 -!- pikhq has joined.
05:28:21 -!- banpdtr_ has joined.
05:37:02 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:38:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
05:39:32 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:58:10 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.5.18/20110319140258]).
05:58:16 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
06:03:47 -!- pikhq has joined.
06:05:43 -!- asiekierka has joined.
06:07:32 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
06:09:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
06:09:15 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Changing host).
06:09:15 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
06:11:14 -!- Lymia has quit (Quit: ==(>^w^)> ==(> >.<)>).
06:11:30 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:11:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
06:27:02 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
06:28:12 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
06:50:35 -!- azaq23 has joined.
06:54:56 -!- azaq23 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
06:57:41 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
07:07:02 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:08:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
07:15:48 -!- pingveno has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:19:39 -!- pingveno has joined.
07:26:55 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:28:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
07:32:26 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
07:44:08 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
07:54:27 -!- pikhq has joined.
07:56:14 -!- elliott has joined.
07:56:23 <elliott> I have to let this idea escape before it envelops me:
07:56:30 <elliott> Profile-guided compiler warnings.
07:56:36 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
08:07:54 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
08:09:35 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
08:34:54 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
08:39:35 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
08:50:07 -!- iamcal has joined.
08:50:53 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
08:51:15 -!- comex has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
08:52:09 -!- comex has joined.
08:52:36 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
08:52:53 -!- pingveno has joined.
08:53:18 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
08:54:32 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
08:56:33 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
08:57:58 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
09:06:24 -!- banpdtr_ has left.
09:16:01 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:17:53 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
09:36:18 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
09:36:31 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:38:08 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
09:43:41 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
09:45:58 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
10:10:47 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Page closed).
10:14:31 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:16:21 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
10:34:31 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:36:22 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
10:44:14 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
10:45:03 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
10:54:31 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:56:22 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
10:59:44 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
11:01:05 -!- cheater- has joined.
11:08:02 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
11:16:36 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
11:34:54 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:36:34 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
11:53:19 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
11:53:36 -!- pikhq has joined.
11:54:54 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:56:32 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
12:01:36 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
12:14:44 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
12:16:58 -!- cheater00 has joined.
12:19:07 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
12:27:49 -!- aloril has joined.
12:31:37 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
12:32:03 -!- copumpkin has joined.
12:38:36 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
12:45:54 -!- oerjan has joined.
12:55:20 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
13:01:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
13:13:31 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
13:15:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
13:18:26 -!- MigoMipo_A has joined.
13:24:22 -!- copumpkin has joined.
13:29:40 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:32:55 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
13:33:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
13:34:31 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
13:35:34 -!- MigoMipo_A has quit (Quit: Bye).
13:39:51 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
13:56:24 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:08:54 <Ilari> Ouch: "I'd create a long-lived OCSP responder certificate with the OCSPNoCheck extension. This kind of certificate can't be revoked *at all*, and has the same power as a CRL-signing key (which can be revoked)." (discussing the Comodo incident).
14:20:22 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
14:44:50 <Gregor> `addquote <anekant> what does coffee do to biological neural networks <JRowe> what tiger blood does for charlie sheen
14:44:53 <HackEgo> 336) <anekant> what does coffee do to biological neural networks <JRowe> what tiger blood does for charlie sheen
14:54:47 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
14:57:29 -!- cheater- has joined.
14:58:41 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
15:17:03 <Gregor> http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?FamilyID=21eabb90-958f-4b64-b5f1-73d0a413c8ef&displaylang=en whoahwtf
15:17:11 <Gregor> I'll bet you could run those in VirtualBox
15:25:11 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
15:25:23 <Gregor> I frankly don't know what that means, but would assume it's in the guest software, not the host.
15:27:56 <Phantom_Hoover> They're distributing executables which are presumably emulator + HD image, so extracting it would be non-trivial.
15:34:43 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.03: 2x4k+1k to Japan, 1M(512k+2x256k) to China, 256 to New Zealand.
15:35:07 <Ilari> Slow week... Only 0.23 blocks.
15:35:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Ilari, is that a script or are you writing this manually?
15:37:41 <fizzie> Is 1M really just 0.03 blocks? I mean, purely in-the-head that should be 1/16th of a 2^24 = 16M address block, and 0.03 is less than 1/20 = 0.05. Or what is that 0.03 number anyway?
15:38:49 <Ilari> That was from local calculation, not from the graph on APNIC site.
15:39:41 <Ilari> Estimate using same random method as yesterday now yields Tuesday April 19th.
15:39:52 <fizzie> Yes, but is it in blocks?
15:40:22 <Ilari> Yes, it is in blocks. Maybe some large block got returned/revoked?
15:41:08 <fizzie> Perhaps that; it doesn't at least seem to directly match those listed networks.
15:41:10 <fizzie> > (2*4096+1024+1048576+256)/16777216
15:44:36 -!- asiekierka has joined.
15:45:48 <Ilari> Reading from scrollback buffer, available addresses count was 44 281 856 yesterday, and now it is 43 806 208 (that doesn't account for setaside). That's down 475 648. Number of addresses allocated is 1 058 048, diffrence of 582 400, A /13, /17, /18, /19 and 3x/24.
15:53:37 -!- lament has joined.
15:55:51 <Ilari> Indeed, down 0.03.
15:56:57 -!- zzo38 has joined.
16:11:51 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
16:30:17 -!- sftp has joined.
16:31:50 -!- iamcal has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
16:47:59 <Vorpal> I think firefox 4 is BADLY confused about how many DPI my screen has
16:48:12 <Vorpal> 11pt text now looks like 17pt
16:48:25 <Vorpal> and I did check zoom first
16:49:20 -!- FireFly has joined.
16:51:29 <Vorpal> also how the fuck do I move the tab bar down like it used to be
16:51:50 <Vorpal> I use the tab bar more often, thus it should be closer to the page. Less mouse movement.
16:51:53 <Deewiant> Vorpal: View -> Toolbars -> Tabs on top
16:52:12 <zzo38> Can't you use the keyboard keys for tab selection?
16:52:14 <Vorpal> phew, that made it a lot better
16:52:40 <Vorpal> zzo38, sure, but sometimes it is easier to use the mouse, like when switching to one two rows down or such
16:52:54 <zzo38> How many tabs do you use at once?
16:53:21 <Vorpal> usually varies between 3 and about 40
16:54:30 <zzo38> I never use that many. My browser tabs vary usually from 1 to 5 (and 0 of course when it is not running)
16:54:56 <fizzie> There's that "tab groups" thing, I haven't quite understood how it works yet.
16:55:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, I haven't seen anything like that yet.
16:55:58 <fizzie> It seems to open a thing where the tabs are show as icons.
16:56:18 <fizzie> In the "tab list" drop-down menu at the end of the tab bar, at least for me.
16:56:53 <Vorpal> eh. Oh right. I disabled that. I use multi-row tab bar instead.
16:57:13 <Vorpal> somewhere in tabmix plus settings I think
16:57:14 <fizzie> Well, it's also ctrl-shift-e.
16:57:30 <fizzie> Don't know about how it mixes (no pun intended) with tabmixery.
16:58:05 <Vorpal> well it does seem to work. At least it does what you described (showing preview icons)
16:58:12 <Vorpal> what makes it groups though
16:58:22 <fizzie> I think you can have multiple of them windows.
16:58:28 <fizzie> At least the one seems to be movable.
16:58:40 <fizzie> And there's a "name this tab group" thing shown near the top.
16:58:58 <Deewiant> You can create a new group by dragging in the non-group area
16:59:09 <Vorpal> Deewiant, how does that affect the tab bar?
16:59:14 <fizzie> Deewiant: Ooh, so you can; I was *just* about to try it.
16:59:33 <Deewiant> The tab bar only shows the current group
16:59:48 <Vorpal> ah, would have been more useful if it colour coded the tabs or something
17:00:05 <Vorpal> also I see pointless visual effects
17:00:12 <fizzie> Deewiant: So how do you multi-select tabs to move them into a new group? Control-clickery, shift-clickery or drag-a-rectangle don't seem to work. :/
17:00:15 <Vorpal> when closing the tab group page
17:00:23 <Vorpal> it makes some zooming out kind of effect
17:01:09 <Deewiant> I haven't really used it other than a few minutes of playing around with rc1 :-P
17:01:20 <Vorpal> in other news Arch Linux seems to finally call Firefox Firefox
17:01:26 <Vorpal> it was nam...whatever before
17:01:40 <fizzie> Deewiant: Ooh, that's funky: if I close a group, it turns into a small [...] thing that says "undo close group [x]".
17:01:48 <Zwaarddijk> fuck the licensing deals firefox has re: name
17:01:55 <Deewiant> Before that, Shiretoko, for 3.5.
17:02:02 <Vorpal> Deewiant, yes I know it was the dev name. I just couldn't remember it :P
17:02:17 <fizzie> Deewiant: (... what's less funky is that the "undo" icon auto-disappeared after a dozen seconds or so.)
17:02:30 <Vorpal> and they seem to have gone for the foxy icon as well. They used the plain bluish globe icon before
17:02:55 <Vorpal> my thunderbird still isn't thunderbird however
17:03:24 <Vorpal> however, the DPI issue remains...
17:03:37 <fizzie> This thing I have now (installed a daily-ish build of 4 from the LaunchPad PPA thing) seems to call itself "Minefield".
17:05:25 <Vorpal> hm somehow restarting firefox fixed the dpi issue on normal pages
17:05:38 <Vorpal> a lot of GUI text is still huge
17:05:44 <Vorpal> this might be intentional though
17:05:56 <Vorpal> the add-on tab for example.
17:07:24 <Vorpal> and somehow the interface looks even more dumbed down
17:07:57 -!- cal153 has joined.
17:09:47 <fizzie> No, I think the proper word is something like "streamlined" or "user-centricized" or "dynamistically reoriented in adventurious new ways".
17:10:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, dumbed down :P
17:11:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, also the last one is a parody right? Or has someone actually used that one seriously?
17:12:54 <fizzie> Well, I just came up with it, but of course I can't guarantee no-one's said it ever seriously.
17:13:44 <fizzie> It's not "dumbed down", it's "interactionally liminal".
17:16:06 <fizzie> I've seen artsy-and-designy people use that word in randomish contexts.
17:16:36 <Vorpal> spell checker thinks it doesn't exist.
17:16:45 <fizzie> "Liminality (from the Latin word līmen, meaning "a threshold") The liminal state is characterized by ambiguity, openness, and indeterminacy. One's sense of identity dissolves to some extent, bringing about disorientation. ..."
17:16:58 <fizzie> "a. gen. Of or pertaining to the threshold or initial stage of a process. rare. b. spec. in Psychol. Of or pertaining to a ‘limen’ or ‘threshold’."
17:25:35 <Vorpal> weird, trying to right click on a book mark and open properties for it doesn't work in firefox 4 for me
17:26:07 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I assume you switched, does that action work for you? Would be useful to know where to start looking for the cause (extensions or elsewhere)
17:27:09 <Deewiant> Yes, it works for me (in a folder in the bookmark bar)
17:27:20 <Vorpal> Deewiant, what about from the bookmarks menu?
17:27:37 <Vorpal> it doesn't work there, it *does* work in the bookmark bar however
17:28:53 <Vorpal> okay wtf, it works after restarting firefox
17:50:02 <zzo38> How do you make phase of moon with integer arithmetic?
17:54:16 <zzo38> If someone types on their program "Licensed under GNU GPL version 5 or later version", then does it mean you have to wait for version 5 of GNU GPL to be invented?
17:57:09 -!- Lymia has joined.
17:57:09 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host).
17:57:09 -!- Lymia has joined.
18:09:18 <Gregor> zzo38: AFAIK that would effectively mean that there is no license (and so no legal use) until GPLv5 is released, but "until" doesn't usually work well in law so in practice it may very well just be no license.
18:12:00 <zzo38> Of course I was asking hypothetically, since there is probably not a real reason to write such a note on your program (if GPLv5 is not yet released).
18:12:56 <zzo38> But I have known of some copyrights which are set to expire earlier than normal, but those are just making public domain afterward, as well as being a fixed date at which it expires. So it is different than this case.
18:13:58 <Gregor> There's no legal way to actually make the copyright expire early, all those are are special licenses with time limits.
18:16:21 <zzo38> Maybe something like: "Copyright ____ All rights reserved. Special license: After the date of June 1, 2003, this work is in the public domain; if that is not possible, then after the date of June 1, 2003, everyone has irrevocable permanent license to use it for any possible use with no restrictions, as if it is not copyrighted."
18:21:41 <Gregor> The first clause has no purpose, you cannot decree something to be in the public domain in a license.
18:22:30 <zzo38> Is it correct if the first clause is omitted?
18:33:16 -!- princess has joined.
18:35:34 <zzo38> princess: Hello, what do you want, please?
18:37:57 -!- Gregor has set topic: THIS TOPIC FAILS AT BEING BLANK | BUT IT ALSO FAILS AT REFERRING TO ESOTERIC TOPICS IN COMPUTING AND PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:38:02 * Gregor twiddles his thumbs :P
18:38:12 <zzo38> Well, you can just wait and seeing in case of anyone else type something you are interested with.
18:40:17 <Phantom_Hoover> princess, I'm afraid we're not the best place to learn to speak.
18:44:16 <pikhq> So we had gathered.
18:44:59 <Gregor> pikhq: Helpful as always.
18:46:32 -!- princess has quit (Quit: Saliendo).
18:47:25 <pikhq> AS SUCH IS OUR WONT
18:47:55 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I'm appending to Gregor's sentence.
18:48:07 <Gregor> Then the "SUCH" is unnecessary.
18:48:50 <pikhq> Gregor: I SUCH LOVE SUCH USING SUCH UNNECESSARIILY SUCH THAT SUCH I SUCH SHALL SUCH USE SUCH IT SUCH
18:53:47 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, MY JAPANESE FRIEND INFORMS ME THAT THING YOU SAID DOES NOT REALLY MAKE SENSe
18:53:54 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
18:56:10 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, sure enough, I did fuck it up.
18:56:58 -!- impomatic has joined.
18:58:16 <pikhq> そう思わせられました。 is a bit more what I was going for. XD
19:23:19 <zzo38> I really dislike the \outer command in TeX. Therefore, I do not use it.
19:23:31 <zzo38> It gets in the way of a lot of things.
19:24:59 <zzo38> Perhaps on old computers that were much slower, it might make sense to do this (and other) kind of error checking, that you can try to recover the rest of the document as much as possible so that you can proofread it. But new computer is much faster and such things as that are not very good, in my opinion, at least.
19:39:47 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: no, it would be nice
19:42:52 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:01:10 <Sgeo> When was elliott last here?
20:01:40 <oerjan> a few seconds this morning
20:20:36 -!- iconmaster_ has joined.
20:23:15 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, wait, is this damn connection still hating me?
20:23:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:23:17 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: exciting... i've took a few seconds... on a train, just past puistola. stopped here, the usual mode of operation is to make a living hacking on eclipse plugins, come see me in my place
20:23:26 -!- zzo38 has left.
20:23:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:24:03 <oerjan> fungot: now that was sad
20:24:03 <fungot> oerjan: is there a space profiler for s48? is there anything in scheme48 that is like mine uses modified csv files to store the size
20:26:11 <fizzie> Hm, Puistola's a place in Helsinki. Wonder who said that.
20:31:43 -!- iconmaster_ has quit (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi).
20:33:29 -!- iconmaster_ has joined.
20:43:36 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
20:44:00 -!- pumpkin has joined.
20:44:08 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:44:47 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:44:55 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
20:46:43 -!- iconmaster_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:48:20 <Sgeo> Is Linear Algebra fun?
20:51:05 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:54:48 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:00:06 <tswett> Is "Puistola" pronounced Pwi-sto-la or Pu-i-sto-la?
21:01:36 <Deewiant> It's a diphthong but I wouldn't call it "pwi" :-P
21:02:05 <fizzie> Wiktionary IPA's the "puisto" word as [ˈpuisto̞].
21:02:14 <tswett> fizzie: how very helpful.
21:02:38 <tswett> Is it more like Puj-sto-la, then?
21:02:48 <tswett> Which half of the diphthong is the major half?
21:03:11 <fizzie> I can give you an audio file out of this speech recognition data corpus if you want.
21:03:17 <tswett> That would be useful, yes.
21:03:27 <tswett> Hey, Puistola's a place on a Monopoly board. P
21:05:06 <fizzie> http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/puistola.wav should perhaps have it. I haven't bothered to test-listen to it at all.
21:05:18 <tswett> Is there also a Lautakävely? :P
21:05:39 <fizzie> The transcript says "sain hyvän syötön pasi puistolalta", where it's a name of a person, but it should be pronounced the same way anyway.
21:06:22 <Vorpal> how long ago was windows 7 released now again? Roughly
21:06:53 <Vorpal> unless I'm wrong there should be another windows version due soon
21:07:09 <tswett> That sounds pretty Pu-i-sto-lal-ta-ish, though you could call it Puj as well.
21:07:34 <fizzie> Windows 8's supposed to come in 2012.
21:08:11 <fizzie> (Don't think there's any official word yet though.)
21:08:13 <zzo38> Apparently the next version no longer uses a keyboard or mouse, no longer will run on a PC, and all documents *must* be stored on the internet so that they can spy on you.
21:08:51 <zzo38> I do not know whether or not any of this is true.
21:09:03 <Vorpal> it sounds extremely unlikely
21:09:09 <Vorpal> especially the bit about no keyboard
21:10:49 <fizzie> There has been some word on a "new version" that'd be tablet-oriented.
21:10:59 <fizzie> It might of course be a completely different thing than Windows 8.
21:11:13 <Vorpal> yeah aren't there tablet versions of current windows as well
21:11:36 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, all of the things I wrote might be only the tablet version.
21:11:40 <Vorpal> I mean, come on, if they dropped non-tablet, what would programmers targeting windows use. And so on.
21:12:50 <zzo38> I write programs in C so that they are not only for Windows or only for any specific computer or operating system.
21:14:01 <Vorpal> good luck. You will need it to do anything non-trivial.
21:14:49 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:14:57 <zzo38> Is this why C was invented?
21:15:00 <Gregor> How pointlessly pessimistic you are, Vorpal. You can write portable C that does all sorts of shit, so long as you don't care about GUIs.
21:15:27 <fizzie> Gregor: Or listing a directory.
21:15:31 <Vorpal> Gregor, C defines functions for working on files. It does not even consider directories
21:15:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, gah you beat me to it
21:15:59 <zzo38> And most of my programs do not have GUIs, and most of them do not need to do directory listings either, or network, or threads...
21:16:09 <fizzie> Still, I'm sure you can do some pretty non-trivial data-processing tasks even in portable C.
21:16:34 <fizzie> And C1x has threads. :p
21:16:51 <Gregor> Threads are /sort of/ a problem. Networking isn't since BSD sockets are universal. Windows (and everything else) supports opendir/readdir/closedir.
21:16:51 <Sgeo> http://www.gerbil.org/tom/
21:16:53 <Vorpal> but really, pure C is only really useful as a common base to build on
21:16:55 <zzo38> I will use SDL if I want graphics and audio. SDL works on many systems.
21:16:58 <Sgeo> (Tue Aug 28 2001) A new tesla bootstrap has been released.
21:17:01 <Vorpal> you can't even do sensible OS coding in pure C
21:17:36 <zzo38> If I want programming an operating system, the parts that are specific to the computer can be programmed by machine-codes or assembly language.
21:17:38 <Vorpal> Gregor, wait what? Are you assuming a /hosted environment/?
21:17:43 <Gregor> By "portable C code" I mean "C code written for existing systems which are not totally retarded". And my basis is pretty lax since I let Windows in.
21:18:27 <Vorpal> Gregor, err, I'm pretty sure you do in the statement about common OS :P
21:19:03 <Gregor> Vorpal: Oh, I thought you were complaining about my opendir/readdir on Windows statement.
21:19:19 <fizzie> Well, you know, if you only assume a freestanding implementation, then you can't do any IO at all.
21:19:21 <Gregor> Of course I mean C code hosted in an OS, but when people write portable Python code nobody say "BUT IT DOESN'T RUN ON METAL HAW I'M TARDED"
21:19:38 -!- comex_ has joined.
21:19:44 -!- yorick_ has joined.
21:19:51 <zzo38> To contrast, TeX is *absolutely the same everywhere* (as long as you do not use LaTeX, pdfTeX, e-TeX, XeTeX, or any of those other things). TeX is not for writing operating systems, though. It is for writing documents to print out.
21:19:59 -!- comex has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:20:00 -!- yorick has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:20:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, I haven't been doing hosted C code programming for several weeks now. I was doing freestanding just 4 days ago
21:20:17 <Vorpal> well freestanding with extensions
21:20:18 <Gregor> Vorpal: You were not writing portable C code.
21:20:26 <Gregor> Vorpal: Nor is that an argument that portable C code does not exist.
21:20:32 <Vorpal> Gregor, indeed. I was including <avr/interrupts.h> and so on
21:20:43 <Gregor> Vorpal: All that's an argument for is that C is powerful enough to write both portable and unportable code, so good for C.
21:21:16 <Vorpal> Gregor, true. Anyway you can't do much interesting in portable C really. Where portable C means what the C standard requires
21:21:32 <Vorpal> you *can* do quite a lot if you assume your mostly portable superset of that
21:21:40 <fizzie> That really depends on your definition of "interesting".
21:21:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, interacting with other stuff in this case.
21:22:05 <Gregor> Vorpal: Yes, that's because the C standard is a pointlessly-strict requirement.
21:22:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, sure you can do data processing and a simple line based text UI, but that isn't very interesting
21:22:55 <fizzie> Again, that's just your opinion.
21:23:23 <fizzie> I'd say our speech recognition system could be portable C, and it would still qualify as non-trivial.
21:23:27 <Vorpal> actually I could write portable freestanding C code, with the exception of the name and signature of the entry point... I wouldn't be able to observe the results however.
21:23:34 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:28:14 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:28:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you happen to know why elliott left this channel?
21:29:15 <zzo38> fizzie: You can just use stdin/stdout, where the audio is on stdin and the text is on stdout. Now it is a proper speech recognition system.
21:29:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: I saw some discussion in the logs, but really I haven't been following.
21:30:15 <Vorpal> zzo38, I'm sure there should be something in between as well. :P
21:30:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2011-03-23.txt 18:20 or so. 's all I know.
21:30:54 <zzo38> Vorpal: Perhaps the command-line parameter to set the options. Now is it enough?
21:31:30 <Vorpal> zzo38, I didn't mean that...
21:31:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
21:31:52 <zzo38> Vorpal: Then what do you mean, please?
21:32:37 <Vorpal> zzo38, I mean you need something in between stdin and stdout to make it "a proper speech recognition system" :P
21:32:41 <Sgeo> So, I'm watching The Website Is Down
21:33:02 <Sgeo> I notice that in this video, the person is playing some old FPS, and it immediately strikes me as old
21:33:12 <zzo38> What would you need? Just the program, isn't it?
21:33:15 <Sgeo> Yet just before, a different one that I saw, he was playing NetHack
21:33:21 <Sgeo> And I didn't think of it as old
21:40:03 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
21:45:47 <Sgeo> Don?t quit smoking... LEARN TO SMOKE THE HEALTHY WAY!!!
21:50:18 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.5.18/20110319140258]).
21:51:32 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:22:52 <Sgeo> I am now playing a joke NetHack simulator
22:23:08 <Sgeo> I am on the Astral Plane on an altar without the amulet
22:24:18 <Sgeo> http://www.thewebsiteisdown.com/nethack.html
22:25:09 <Sgeo> "You quaff a potion of YASD"
22:27:44 <Sgeo> "Killed by insulting the parser"
22:29:51 <Sgeo> "killed by pressing the letter 'd'
22:30:04 <Sgeo> ("You drop... dead")
22:33:18 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)).
22:34:24 -!- rodgort has joined.
22:36:31 <Sgeo> I can't figure it out
22:40:36 <oerjan> ...why would you expect a joke nethack to be survivable...
22:41:08 <Sgeo> Because the blog post says so
22:41:29 <Sgeo> http://dpt.thewebsiteisdown.com/dpt/
22:42:45 <zzo38> Hay! It says I found the gold but it says I don't have any!
22:44:32 <Sgeo> That Seppuku message is also associated with a different death
22:45:08 -!- iconmaster has joined.
22:45:55 <Sgeo> Try wielding the elf, then the lichen
22:45:58 <Sgeo> Or other way around
22:47:41 <zzo38> How to remove the armor?
22:47:53 <Sgeo> I don't know if it's possible
22:50:10 <Vorpal> Sgeo, can you win the real nethack btw?
22:50:19 <Vorpal> that is, have you been able to
22:50:33 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you need more practise then :)
22:50:34 <Sgeo> Have a game on NAO, haven't touched it in a while
22:50:48 <Vorpal> Sgeo, why not play locally? Way less lag that way
22:55:08 <Sgeo> I'm going to play a bit of Crawl I think
23:13:38 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:15:10 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:15:32 <Sgeo> ??you feel nervous for a moment
23:18:03 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
23:20:40 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Client Quit).
23:23:50 <zzo38> Would you use the function if a "while" or "for" loop is allowed to have a "else" clause, which would be executed if the loop terminates without using "break"?
23:26:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:34:41 <Sgeo> zzo38, that sounds Falcon-like
23:35:15 <zzo38> Sgeo: Do you know if Falcon has such a thing? And, do you use Falcon?
23:36:01 <Sgeo> Python has for-else loops
23:36:27 <Sgeo> I don't remember if Falcon has it
23:36:38 <zzo38> Are they the same as this or different? And does it have while-else loops?
23:36:56 <Sgeo> Yes, it has while-else loops, and it's what you're describing, I think
23:37:04 <Sgeo> http://docs.python.org/tutorial/controlflow.html
23:37:50 <zzo38> Yes, section 4.4 says the same kind of thing I am describing.
23:44:12 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
23:44:57 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:44:57 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:46:03 -!- wareya has joined.
23:49:44 -!- iconmaster has quit (Quit: Goodbye, cruel world!).
23:50:27 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:51:14 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:53:01 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
23:55:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:55:36 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:48:58 -!- esowiki has joined.
15:48:58 -!- glogbot has joined.
15:51:34 <Gregor> At this point I have no idea why.
15:53:32 <Gregor> TRAC IS SUCH A PIECE OF FUCKING GARBAGE
15:53:49 <Gregor> Trac is currently taking 100% CPU and slowly but surely chewing through all my memory.
15:56:00 <Gregor> For my project management.
15:56:14 <Gregor> Ticket tracking on some, homepages on the other, and login management on all.
16:09:07 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah you like periodic videos too ← no, I stumbled upon them and I was starting to enjoy them before you said that. <-- wait what. Do you mean you no longer enjoy them, now that you know I like them?
16:44:53 <tswett> I want there to be an elementary particle consisting of a small positive charge surrounded by a large and equal negative charge.
16:45:16 <tswett> It shall behave just like an atom, and it shall form no chemical compounds at all.
16:46:05 <Sgeo> noble m etals?
16:46:35 <tswett> Sgeo: the metals, mostly precious or semi-precious, like silver and copper, that are relatively unreactive.
16:46:41 <Sgeo> Oh, not metals made of noble gasses
16:46:53 <tswett> Right. Those would be confusing.
16:59:05 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
16:59:16 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
16:59:16 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
17:01:26 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
17:05:04 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:05:07 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:15:30 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:18:01 <zzo38> User:Ian wrote some things about VAX (and about other things) that I didn't know.
17:31:10 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
17:39:41 -!- lament has joined.
17:39:55 <Phantom_Hoover> <tswett> Sgeo: the metals, mostly precious or semi-precious, like silver and copper, that are relatively unreactive. ← except no.
17:40:07 <Phantom_Hoover> They're the platinum group, gold and silver according to WP.
17:40:27 <tswett> Oh, they have a more specific definition than I thought.
17:41:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Both silver and osmium react with _air_ at room temperature.
17:41:42 <pikhq> Silver as a "noble metal"?
17:41:52 <pikhq> Clearly the notion has no valuable meaning.
17:41:52 <zzo38> Have you invent any computer with LFSR-based PC?
17:42:13 -!- cheater00 has joined.
17:42:28 <pikhq> Jeeze, copper is often used *explicitly for how it appears after corrosion*.
17:42:49 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It's on the list!
17:42:59 <pikhq> Oh, wait, "including several non-noble metals".
17:43:04 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:43:06 <pikhq> Still bullshit that silver is on there.
17:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Also chemists and metallurgists consider copper and bismuth not noble metals because they easily oxidize due to the reaction O2 + 2 H2O + 4 e− ⇄ 4 OH−(aq) +0.40 V which is possible in moist air.
17:43:28 <pikhq> Gold, platinum, iridium, sure. But *silver*?
17:43:48 <pikhq> Why not just put fucking sodium on there and call it a day? :P
17:43:48 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
17:44:07 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, silver doesn't react with pure air or water, apparently.
17:44:27 <Phantom_Hoover> <tswett> I want there to be an elementary particle consisting of a small positive charge surrounded by a large and equal negative charge.
17:44:27 <Phantom_Hoover> <tswett> It shall behave just like an atom, and it shall form no chemical compounds at all.
17:44:39 <zzo38> Sodium is far from the other ones on the periodic table
17:44:51 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Client Quit).
17:44:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Charge is a fundamental property of a particle; you can't have it distributed throughout.
17:45:18 <Phantom_Hoover> And how do you have something that behaves just like an atom which forms no chemical compounds?
17:55:33 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
17:55:45 <pikhq> It's got all the *annoying* physics interactions in it
17:56:24 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not so much that as the omnipresent and blatant lies-to-children.
17:56:55 <pikhq> Okay, that's probably worse.
17:57:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, Newtonian mechanics are entirely valid unless you reach insane extremes.
17:57:59 <Phantom_Hoover> The electron shell model you're taught at school fails at the transition metals.
17:58:34 <Phantom_Hoover> The mechanics you're told for covalent bonds fail to account for either carbon monoxide or ozone.
18:00:32 <pikhq> Yeah, Newtonian mechanics pretty comprehensively covers what we regularly observe.
18:01:15 -!- fizzie has joined.
18:01:31 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:02:14 <Phantom_Hoover> _She had to ask the physics department whether liquids could have pressure after I pointed it out._
18:02:16 -!- wareya has joined.
18:05:45 <Phantom_Hoover> (OK, so she had confused pressure and compression, but that's scarcely better.)
18:11:02 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
18:25:28 <zzo38> Maybe there should be a command that tells the compiler that the bitwise OR, bitwise XOR, or addition, can all work in this place and it should select one for the current circumstance in the target computer.
18:26:58 -!- impomatic has joined.
18:28:09 <zzo38> (Which is the case if it is known that ((x&y)==0) ?)
18:28:47 <impomatic> Elliott: if you're reading the logs, http://twitcode.org/show/257/forth-outer-interpreter-version-2
18:29:53 <Ilari> Heh, that actually happens in the last step of integer-math partially-transparent rendering routine I wrote. Needing to OR two number that have all sets bits disjoint.
18:31:18 <zzo38> Ilari: What programming language did you use and what is this program more specific?
18:31:45 <Ilari> It is an algorithm. And I have implemented it in both Java and C++.
18:31:48 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:32:16 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
18:32:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you never replied to this:
18:32:57 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah you like periodic videos too ← no, I stumbled upon them and I was starting to enjoy them before you said that. <-- wait what. Do you mean you no longer enjoy them, now that you know I like them?
18:33:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, yes, your approval has made it RUINED FOREVER.
18:33:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I take that as a no then
18:33:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if not I approve of whatever you love :P
18:34:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't get why you hate me. *shrug*
18:34:49 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
18:35:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also FireFly and BeholdMyGlory
18:35:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm *so* going to move to UK :P
18:36:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what about Scotland?
18:37:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, aren't you from Scotland iirc?
18:37:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, huh, I thought you were up in Edinburgh
18:37:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so what city are you in then?
18:38:11 <impomatic> The English invented the computer... can't be that bad.
18:39:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, wait, do you *live* in Wales too?
18:39:09 <Vorpal> as opposed to being born there
18:39:32 <Vorpal> very confusing then. I wonder who was up in Edinburgh in this channel
18:40:04 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
18:40:21 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:42:05 <Gregor> impomatic: The English also invented the English language, but the Americans made it great! *runs*
18:42:19 -!- Wamanuz3 has joined.
18:42:25 <lament> i thought the germans invented the computer
18:43:44 <impomatic> English also invented some of the best 8 bit computers... BBC, Spectrum, Dragon :-P
18:44:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so Wales. That's it. Hilly isn't it?
18:45:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, rather low hills iirc?
18:46:13 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
18:46:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so corrugated terrain mostly
18:50:02 <Phantom_Hoover> <impomatic> English also invented some of the best 8 bit computers... BBC, Spectrum, Dragon :-P
18:50:44 <zzo38> I think the \linepenalty parameter in TeX is not really a penalty value. Instead, it is an adjustment to the badness value for each line.
18:55:39 <impomatic> Welsh company (Dragon Data), English owners (Mettoy). Therefore an English invention. :-P
18:56:12 -!- lament has set topic: THIS TOPIC FAILS AT BEING BLANK | BUT IT ALSO FAILS AT REFERRING TO ESOTERIC TOPICS IN COMPUTING AND PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | NO IT DOESN'T.
19:00:13 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: rebooting...).
19:10:43 -!- lament has set topic: THIS TOPIC FAILS AT BEING BLANK | BUT IT ALSO FAILS AT REFERRING TO ESOTERIC TOPICS IN COMPUTING AND PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | AS WELL AS AT BEING SELF-CONSISTENT.
19:31:36 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
19:32:15 <Vorpal> vlc debug output (why do I get that?) seems rather strange:
19:32:17 <Vorpal> Warning: call to rand()
19:32:25 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:32:29 <Vorpal> yeah, highly dangerous function
19:35:13 <Phantom_Hoover> It isn't a terribly good random number generator IIRC.
19:43:24 -!- copumpkin has joined.
19:48:18 <ais523> on some old UNIXes, rand() was infamous for alternating odd and even numbers
19:48:23 <ais523> I'm not sure if any are quite that stupid nowadays, though
19:49:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm just holding out for quantum RNGs that can fit on a chip.
19:49:29 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:50:02 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:51:08 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined.
19:54:27 -!- Wamanuz3 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:56:13 -!- augur has joined.
19:59:07 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:06:25 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
20:08:09 -!- azaq23 has joined.
20:11:13 <Phantom_Hoover> *I should not have to manually reset a WiFi connection every 30 seconds.*
20:13:43 <myndzi> should never have had to do such a thing in any year
20:13:49 <myndzi> unfortunately not the truth, however
20:14:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I need a list of people to stab for allowing things like this to happen.
20:16:14 <oerjan> occasionally i wonder whether the universe has a fundamental law which prevents any item from working in a truly non-annoying manner.
20:17:19 <oerjan> and the harder you try to make something perfect, the worse it fails.
20:17:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:17:53 <myndzi> i just found out that the problem i am having with my keyboard is a known problem ("chatter") and that i should have RMAed it but it's too late
20:18:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:18:36 <myndzi> so now i get to try and clean contacts or something (or maybe replace switches?) to approach 'non-annoying'
20:18:52 <Phantom_Hoover> How does a radio connection which is perfect nearly all of the time become untenable when nothing is changed?
20:18:56 <myndzi> maybe i can wheedle an RMA fix out of them anyway, but not likely; elitekeyboards doesn't sell filco anymore i think
20:19:10 <myndzi> Phantom_Hoover: wifi is black magic
20:19:25 <myndzi> my friend bought a high gain antenna and plugged it in
20:19:32 <myndzi> he sees like 50 APs now instead of 3
20:19:38 <Phantom_Hoover> That does not entitle it to what are effectively phase-of-the-moon bugs.
20:19:41 <myndzi> but connecting to the local one he gets disconnected constantly
20:19:55 <myndzi> he asks me what's wrong
20:20:39 <ais523> I've had wifi troubles which are inconsistent authentication issues, with the signal fine
20:21:24 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:33:23 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, nope, Wales.
20:34:32 <oerjan> then why don't you have a silly unpronouncable nick like ndrylliog
20:35:39 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> *I should not have to manually reset a WiFi connection every 30 seconds.* <-- Sorry, due to budget constraints that feature has been postproned to 2013.
20:35:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Phyntwm_Hyvyr.
20:35:54 <Vorpal> Phyntwm_Hyvyr, awesome :D
20:36:21 <Vorpal> Hey! What is that longest name in the world-place in Wales
20:36:30 <lament> cmnnwiworkjowirklfjoiu
20:36:35 <oerjan> llanfairsomethinggogogoch
20:36:41 <Vorpal> lament, something along that line yes :P
20:36:46 <Vorpal> Phyntwm_Hyvyr, and more importantly can you pronounce it
20:36:53 <ais523> it's typically abbreviated "Llanfair PG"
20:36:58 -!- elliott has joined.
20:37:00 <elliott> Did someone say Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwyll-llantysiliogogogoch?
20:37:03 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
20:37:07 <ais523> but the name was designed just to amuse tourists
20:37:27 <oerjan> worst implementation of channel avoidance ever
20:37:30 <Vorpal> Heh, elliott is log reading
20:38:33 <Sgeo> ais523, what do you think of some Crawl interface changes in 0.8
20:38:42 <ais523> Sgeo: which changes specifically?
20:38:44 <Vorpal> wait, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_place_names#Names_with_spaces_or_hyphen there is a longer place name in NZ
20:38:50 <Vorpal> never heard of that one before
20:38:52 <Sgeo> ais523, spellcasting is different
20:39:11 <Vorpal> Sgeo, Crawl, as in stone soup?
20:39:46 <Vorpal> I should try it out some day
20:39:57 -!- zzo38 has left.
20:43:48 <Vorpal> hm.... Does Welsh concatenate to create new words?
20:46:49 -!- Phyntwm_Hyvyr has changed nick to Phyntwm_Hwvyr.
20:47:30 <Vorpal> ais523, what about elsewhere?
20:52:51 <oerjan> you don't want to recharge the wrong channel, trust me
20:54:00 <Phyntwm_Hwvyr> I can't see it used anywhere without thinking it's wasteful.
20:54:35 <Sgeo> We can always make more once we have nuclear fusion going
20:54:54 <Sgeo> (That would just be trace amounts?)
20:55:12 <Phyntwm_Hwvyr> Sgeo, no, but it's not as awesome as Other Helium Source.
20:55:42 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:00:13 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:02:47 <oerjan> <Phyntwm_Hwvyr> Sgeo, no, but it's not as awesome as Other Helium Source. <-- i thought i'd read that was "yes", assuming you don't want to waste enormous amounts of energy larger than any humanity can currently use...
21:03:11 -!- FireFly has joined.
21:04:43 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:07:59 -!- azaq23 has joined.
21:13:44 <Vorpal> <Phyntwm_Hwvyr> I can't see it used anywhere without thinking it's wasteful. <-- indeed, except in very specialized applications is is extremely wasteful
21:14:39 <Vorpal> Phyntwm_Hwvyr, I propose a helium "mine" on one of the gas giants
21:14:57 <Phyntwm_Hwvyr> Vorpal, pointless, given that the Moon has a fair deal of it.
21:15:28 <Vorpal> Phyntwm_Hwvyr, how can it hold it? I mean, it has even less gravity
21:16:03 <Phyntwm_Hwvyr> Vorpal, helium is slammed straight into the rock by the solar wind and gets stuck there, rather than bouncing off the atmosphere.
21:16:24 <Vorpal> Phyntwm_Hwvyr, how hard would it be to extract though
21:17:10 <Phyntwm_Hwvyr> I shouldn't think it would be so hard as to stop it being worthwhile.
21:17:11 <Vorpal> and hm, how does it stay there? Helium doesn't form bonds easily
21:17:58 <Phyntwm_Hwvyr> Yes, but even so it hits the rock at a fair fraction of c, and bonds or no bonds some of it will stick.
21:18:29 <Vorpal> Phyntwm_Hwvyr, it might be easier to do it on the gas giants. Especially if you can send it back in unmanned pods cheaply along ITN.
21:18:51 <Phyntwm_Hwvyr> Vorpal, it would be _vastly_ harder to skim gas from the gas giants.
21:20:08 <Phyntwm_Hwvyr> Looks like helium-3 is the main one they're interested in from the Moon.
21:21:00 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:21:03 <Vorpal> Phyntwm_Hwvyr, helium-4 is very rare
21:22:37 <Vorpal> "Tritium, with a 12-year half-life, decays into helium-3" hm
21:24:07 -!- zbasubot has joined.
21:24:41 <tswett> It doesn't do anything, but it works.
21:27:24 -!- Phyntwm_Hwvyr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:27:30 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
21:28:10 -!- zbasubot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:28:24 -!- augur has quit.
21:28:45 -!- augur has joined.
21:29:57 * Phantom__Hoover wonders why no terrorists have sabotaged planes with mercury.
21:30:14 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, what would mercury do to planes?
21:30:24 <tswett> Poison the people on them.
21:30:50 * tswett scans the skies for signs of a bot entrance.
21:31:06 <tswett> I wonder if it got klined somehow.
21:31:07 <Phantom__Hoover> Vorpal, I'm just going to leave http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Ilxsu-JlY here.
21:31:18 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, right. It was a while ago I watched them
21:32:30 <tswett> Nope, I think it's just broken.
21:40:05 -!- quintopia has joined.
21:53:55 <iconmaster> I have made a new channel for ISCOM updates, #iscom.
21:56:38 <Vorpal> iconmaster, what is iscom?
22:11:42 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:16:55 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:18:10 -!- pingveno has joined.
22:22:00 -!- Phantom__Hoover has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
22:29:58 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
22:30:04 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:33:11 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:33:42 <zzo38> What are the parts with small numbers for the previous/next month in the calendar, are called?
22:39:06 <coppro> ais523: awesome, you better pass that AV
22:39:34 <ais523> I suspect it won't pass, in the current political climate
22:41:09 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
22:45:04 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:46:29 -!- iconmaster has joined.
22:46:31 <coppro> dman you brits for ruining every chance we'd have of fixing our political climate
22:46:42 <ais523> I hope the typo was deliberate
22:46:50 <ais523> (I dislike religious swearing)
22:47:27 <coppro> dman is a perfectly valid word!
22:47:30 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, christ, you really need to stop this goddamn prudery.
22:48:05 <coppro> on an unrelated note: why did I decide to take a graduate logic course?
22:50:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, apparently the crystalline structure of chocolate is non-trivial.
22:52:13 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:52:13 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
22:52:13 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:53:10 <oerjan> Brilliatn is just the kind of word you might expect to see on a road sign in this region of norway
22:54:01 <oerjan> looking like it could actually mean something in one of the dialects here
22:54:48 <zzo38> oerjan: What could it mean in one of the dialects there?
22:55:44 <oerjan> well it's almost brilla (glasses) + vatn (water, lake)
22:59:17 <oerjan> breivatn _is_ a place name (brei = wide)
22:59:44 <oerjan> (got it as a google suggestion when i tried brilvatn)
23:01:21 <oerjan> in fact i would be surprised if there weren't at least a handful of lakes by that name
23:10:45 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:16:04 <zzo38> It seems to me that a computer with LFSR-based program counter might be a bit more efficient than the standard ones with addition??
23:16:47 <zzo38> Also, arrays could be indexed by XOR instead of with addition.
23:21:05 <oerjan> i'm not sure that would work well if array elements have sizes that are not powers of 2
23:21:48 <oerjan> and it would also mean you would need to malloc 2^n sizes, i think
23:22:35 <zzo38> I think it could work, if one array is element size 3 and one array is elements size 1
23:23:14 <oerjan> hm yes, but they would need to have the same number of elements to fill out the combined space
23:23:39 <zzo38> No, you could split one of those spaces into two arrays
23:28:28 -!- cheater- has joined.
23:29:48 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:31:24 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:34:48 <zzo38> But how efficient would such a computer be that does these things?
23:36:07 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:39:53 <Phantom_Hoover> What is it with people calling Mathematica a groundbreaking masterpiece of software?
23:41:57 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:46:00 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Well, it is just a extra large software doing a lot of things, although we have better things for sure. We do not need Mathematica. We can do mathematics without paying anyone. Wolfram tries to make mathematics to cost a lot of money!!
23:48:57 <zzo38> But it is certainly capable to make a lot of things.
23:48:59 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host).
23:48:59 -!- Zuu has joined.
23:52:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:53:12 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.5.18/20110319140258]).
23:54:17 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
23:56:43 <quintopia> rofl check out sam hughes' latest tweet
00:05:27 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:20:03 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:20:08 -!- pikhq has joined.
00:49:57 -!- quintopia has joined.
00:55:23 <zzo38> What are you going to eat? Paper or plastic?^W^W^W
00:58:10 <Ilari> Heh this article I'm reading reminds me of what I regard as one of the most delusional programming-related comments I have ever heard, which basically said that if C# ever goes out of style, it is easy to auto-translate the program into something else. :-)
00:58:46 -!- iconmaster has quit (Quit: Goodbye, cruel world!).
01:08:54 <oerjan> zzo38: coarse bread slices, one with bacon/liver paté, one with blue cheese, and 1/2 with chicken/curry baguette spread. and a cup of orange juice.
01:12:34 * oerjan basks in saved daylight
01:14:10 <zzo38> I don't like daylight saving time. It doesn't save daylight; it just mixes up the time so that it doesn't match.
01:16:03 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:18:13 -!- lament has joined.
01:45:10 -!- quintopia has joined.
01:47:35 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:58:46 -!- Wamanuz5 has joined.
02:02:14 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
03:16:13 -!- copumpkin has joined.
03:21:16 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
04:33:45 -!- elliott has joined.
04:33:50 <elliott> http://www.basis.netii.net/ursala/links.html
04:33:54 <elliott> ursala's links page links to esolang
04:33:58 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
04:35:20 -!- lediable has joined.
04:40:47 -!- lediable has quit (Quit: Leaving).
05:18:34 -!- zzo38 has joined.
05:43:48 <zzo38> I noticed RFC1 has some errors in it.
05:49:41 <myndzi> that's why they call it a request for comment
05:49:47 <myndzi> as opposed to a Stone Tablet
06:02:07 <zzo38> Yes. Some of the diagrams are mistyped.
06:02:44 <zzo38> Also, I downloaded it and it had no carriage returns, but I think RFC format is supposed to be printable text? It does have form feeds.
06:06:11 <zzo38> I wrote the program ANYTODVI it can print out this RFC by using a file with printer codes with Meta Printer Language. After inserting carriage returns it print correctly. (But it still has the errors in the ASCII diagrams)
06:10:10 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
06:10:41 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
06:19:10 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
06:50:06 -!- pikhq has joined.
06:50:22 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
07:04:11 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:08:00 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
07:15:49 -!- lament has joined.
07:37:44 -!- asiekierka has joined.
07:50:53 -!- sftp has joined.
07:50:59 -!- sftp_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:54:16 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:28:47 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
09:42:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
09:42:37 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:43:12 -!- wareya has joined.
09:45:42 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:53:16 -!- wareya has joined.
09:53:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
10:15:42 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
10:15:43 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
10:15:43 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
10:16:19 -!- FireFly has joined.
10:16:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
10:19:06 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
10:19:07 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
10:28:20 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
10:28:46 -!- copumpkin has joined.
10:37:57 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
10:41:51 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:10:43 -!- asiekierka has joined.
11:20:46 -!- azaq23 has joined.
11:29:14 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
11:43:30 -!- cheater99 has joined.
11:46:08 -!- myndzi\ has joined.
11:49:25 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
12:22:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:22:34 -!- Sgeo has joined.
12:23:00 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
12:24:17 -!- variable has joined.
12:42:02 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
12:56:39 -!- cheater- has joined.
13:39:48 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
13:40:17 -!- copumpkin has joined.
13:44:09 -!- iconmaster has joined.
13:57:46 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
14:00:38 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
14:09:59 -!- sebbu has joined.
14:09:59 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
14:09:59 -!- sebbu has joined.
14:12:25 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
14:12:31 -!- cheater- has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:14:51 -!- cheater- has joined.
14:38:58 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: if the list is in random order, like poor ehird here
14:39:30 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell cpressey That data "scientist" somehow got an article into the Scientific American.
14:47:55 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
14:47:55 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
14:47:55 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
14:50:33 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
14:52:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what "scientist"?
14:52:16 <Vorpal> `addquote <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: if the list is in random order, like poor ehird here
14:52:17 <fungot> Vorpal: " too much free time, fine :) i think that sicp is http://mitpress.mit.edu/ sicp/, the texinfo at http://www.neilvandyke.org/ sicp-texi/ ( texinfo) and http://twb.ath.cx/twb/ canon/ sicp/ ( html)
14:52:19 <HackEgo> 337) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: if the list is in random order, like poor ehird here
14:52:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, some fraud I guess, considering the quotes.
14:53:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no clue what that would even mean. Perhaps information theory?
14:54:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or bad translation. In Swedish for example, computer science is called datavetenskap (data here comes from dator, the Swedish word for computer)
14:57:43 <fizzie> "Tietojenkäsittelytiede" ("the science of processing information") in Finnish.
14:58:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, doesn't really work for the purpose of bad translation however
14:59:04 <fizzie> Well, no, but I doubt it's that.
14:59:14 <fizzie> "Data science" seems to be a somewhat hip neologism.
15:00:00 <fizzie> "Data science requires skills ranging from traditional computer science to mathematics to art. Describing the data science group he put together at Facebook (possibly the first data science group at a consumer-oriented web property), Jeff Hammerbacher said --" and so on, from google-hits.
15:00:13 -!- sebbu has joined.
15:00:13 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
15:00:13 -!- sebbu has joined.
15:03:03 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
15:04:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, so what do they do?
15:05:56 <fizzie> I am not entirely sure, but it seems to be rather close to data mining, but also information visualization and such.
15:09:35 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
15:10:49 -!- elliott has joined.
15:10:58 <elliott> (data scientists are like fizzie employed to do his #esoteric log stuff)
15:11:04 -!- elliott has left ("I really must stop it").
15:12:14 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
15:12:25 <Vorpal> I agree with oerjan.... Worst implementation of channel avoidance ever
15:12:55 <fizzie> The lure of #esoteric, it is impossible to resist, it seems.
15:13:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, speaking of you doing your log stuff... Can you plot channel activity showing how much it declined since elliott decided to mostly leave it?
15:14:06 <Vorpal> I presume more than just his part
15:14:12 <Vorpal> since others would be less active
15:14:45 <Vorpal> iconmaster, you did. By several minutes ;P
15:16:10 -!- azaq23 has joined.
15:16:40 <fizzie> Our channel activity has quite a large variance, so I'm not sure how easy it is to see trends.
15:16:45 <fizzie> When did he leave, anyway?
15:16:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, some days or weeks ago
15:17:32 <fizzie> Well, here's messages/day from my own logs: http://p.zem.fi/donv
15:19:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is a clear longer term drop there for a while
15:21:22 <fizzie> Same numbers after filtering out elliott-messages: http://p.zem.fi/donv2
15:21:36 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:21:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, it doesn't surprise me that goes down as well.
15:22:31 <Vorpal> discussion and not monologue and so on
15:24:46 <oerjan> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or bad translation. In Swedish for example, computer science is called datavetenskap (data here comes from dator, the Swedish word for computer)
15:24:56 <oerjan> i am pretty sure dator comes from data
15:25:23 <oerjan> given that the first is a portmanteau and the second is a genuine latin word
15:26:05 <oerjan> hm well actually it may be a genuine latin word too, but i think that use is still a portmanteau.
15:26:41 <oerjan> (in norwegian the word is "datamaskin")
15:27:17 <fizzie> Heh, that's a silly ad. It says (in Finnish by geolocation, I guess, but translated) "Congratulations! Your IP address has been chosen in your city!! You have 2 minutes to claim your reward! T:TT [Click here]", and T:TT is a countdown from 2:00 down, with the last ten seconds in red; then when it reaches 0:00, it stays there for ~10 seconds, then restarts again from 2:00.
15:27:27 <fizzie> I must be very lucky to win over and over again.
15:27:28 <oerjan> (the genuine latin word "dator" would mean one who gives)
15:27:41 <Zwaarddijk> of data and various latinish words ending in -or
15:28:15 <Zwaarddijk> in Swedish, computer science is also called informationsbehandling in some universities
15:28:16 <oerjan> Zwaarddijk: well that's what i'm saying
15:28:33 <oerjan> our university called it informatikk
15:28:48 <Vorpal> <oerjan> i am pretty sure dator comes from data <-- yes indeed
15:29:20 <Vorpal> oerjan, but I'm saying datavetenskap comes from dator, not from data. Likely.
15:29:23 <Zwaarddijk> datavetenskap can easily be construed without involving any dator in how it' been formed
15:29:43 <Vorpal> Zwaarddijk, yes it could. But since datavetenskap is about computers...
15:29:44 <oerjan> Vorpal: unlikely. since norwegian does similar things and doesn't _have_ the word dator.
15:30:01 <Zwaarddijk> computers is to computer science what telescopes is to astronomy
15:30:33 <Vorpal> Zwaarddijk, good point
15:31:17 <Zwaarddijk> datavetenskap is about how to do things with data, essentially.
15:31:51 -!- elliott has joined.
15:32:03 <elliott> has anyone ever fucked with gcc spec files
15:32:10 <Vorpal> elliott, I looked at them
15:32:19 <Vorpal> and then I went and hid under the be
15:32:36 <elliott> the thing is, I can dump them, modify them, and get gcc to use them
15:32:45 <elliott> but i have no idea what it's _generated_ from initially
15:32:50 <elliott> and I want to change /that/
15:32:52 <elliott> (to change default libc path)
15:32:57 <elliott> (and make -static default)
15:33:20 <Vorpal> elliott, I suspect ais523 is the right person to ask
15:33:36 <elliott> just because he wrote a backend doesn't mean he knows all the other crap, gcc has like 50000000000000000 lines of code
15:33:57 <Vorpal> I think you got a few too many zeros there, but yeah
15:34:08 <elliott> relatedly, gcc 3.4.6 has no dependencies (well apart from libc) and builds in a minute or two. compare with 4.5.
15:34:27 <elliott> (bootstrapping non-glibc libc. the most painless way is to bootstrap via gcc 3.)
15:34:32 <Vorpal> elliott, you have a nice computer then. I'd say 5-7 minutes for 3.4.6
15:34:47 <elliott> well, point is I immediately expected it had errored out when it finished
15:34:54 <elliott> after having spent all day building gcc 4.5.2 over and over again
15:35:24 <Vorpal> elliott, 4.3 is probably the best in the 4.x series. Either that or 4.4
15:36:05 <elliott> Vorpal: i would just stick with gcc 3 if i could maintain the delusion that it'd compile anything.
15:36:16 <Vorpal> elliott, are the spec files generated during compilation? Sure they aren't just included?
15:36:32 <elliott> Vorpal: i have find(1)'d the whole source tree for any file with name *spec*
15:36:39 <Vorpal> elliott, hey it can compile cfunge!
15:36:40 <elliott> checked them all, no generator
15:36:59 <Vorpal> elliott, grep -R <some static looking string from the spec file, such as a header or whatever> .
15:37:34 <elliott> elliott@elliott-MacBookAir:~/stage2/gcc-3.4.6$ grep -r '*version:' .
15:37:34 <elliott> elliott@elliott-MacBookAir:~/stage2/gcc-3.4.6$
15:37:46 <elliott> if it is generated, it's in a file without "spec" in the name, and in a totally different format
15:38:00 <elliott> i think it is instead cobbled together by code. this is just a hunch though.
15:38:02 <Vorpal> elliott, it could be that the : is added separately from the string :
15:38:17 <Vorpal> from the string version
15:38:18 <ais523> I know a bit about gcc backends, but not frontends
15:38:22 <elliott> it just sets the variables internally based on configuration and the like, I suspect
15:38:26 <elliott> and only parses if you give it a file
15:38:42 <Vorpal> elliott, somewhere it must do the dumping?
15:38:53 <elliott> but the dumping isn't what i want to change :)
15:39:03 <Vorpal> elliott, and what about where it can load dumped spec files?
15:39:14 <elliott> dumper + parser for data structure.
15:39:19 <elliott> data structure initialised manually w/ code.
15:39:29 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, I remember gentoo used to patch the spec file... Don't know if they still do...
15:39:39 <elliott> I could just do that, but it seems awfully ugly.
15:39:44 <elliott> since it looks distinctly generated
15:40:11 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
15:40:15 <Vorpal> elliott, well patch the internal variables being set then?
15:40:17 <oerjan> <Zwaarddijk> datavetenskap can easily be construed without involving any dator in how it' been formed <-- although it would probably be as accurate as astronomy before telescopes too
15:40:29 <elliott> i don't know where they're set. also that sounds even uglier :)
15:40:53 <Vorpal> elliott, well if your suspicion is right I doubt there is much choice
15:42:03 <elliott> i'm a pessimist, i'm hoping my suspicion is wrong.
15:42:29 <Vorpal> elliott, don't you mean optimist?
15:42:48 <elliott> an optimist would predict that it is perfect.
15:45:50 * oerjan sets fire to elliott's optimist strawman
15:48:08 <oerjan> <Vorpal> I agree with oerjan.... Worst implementation of channel avoidance ever
15:48:20 <oerjan> i've been trying to resist suggesting a betting pool
15:51:32 -!- asiekierka has joined.
15:51:54 <oerjan> (mostly because that might make him try harder)
15:55:00 <Vorpal> oerjan, I would think he is back for a while now
15:56:23 * oerjan gives elliott a welcome back swat -----###
15:56:25 <Vorpal> elliott, there is one thing to try. It involves gdb however. Assuming that gcc uses a generated spec file, it would have to load it during normal operation right? If it doesn't, then the loader won't be called. Set a breakpoint in some important part of the loader and check if it is ever called.
15:56:36 <elliott> i just haven't devoted the energy to typing /part yet, also i look lagged
15:56:53 <elliott> really i'm waiting for someone who knows gcc to magically prance in
15:56:58 <elliott> i hear this is where all the gcc experts hang out
15:57:04 <oerjan> argh, will we be thrown back into despair again!
15:57:12 <elliott> Vorpal: gdb on gcc, yes, that sounds fun, i bet gcc doesn't run 3985734958347958345 lines just to dump out spec file
15:57:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: modifying spec files is unsupported for some incomprehensible reason :)
15:57:33 <Vorpal> elliott, okay do it with printf debugging
15:57:55 <elliott> Vorpal: or bug people in here until it gets so annoying that someone figures out the solution just to make me shut up
15:57:56 <Vorpal> elliott, and gdb works fine in chroots as long as /proc is mounted
16:01:24 -!- azaq23 has joined.
16:12:29 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
16:18:12 -!- asiekierka has joined.
16:23:29 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Daemon escaped from pentagram).
16:27:01 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:31:20 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:31:37 <fizzie> Again couldn't help myself, had to use Google chart thing to plot those previous numbers: http://p.zem.fi/donv3
16:32:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, why not graphviz?
16:32:36 <fizzie> Because graphviz plots graphs, not charts?
16:33:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, I meant gnuplot
16:33:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, I confuse their names all the time -_-
16:34:09 <fizzie> No reason, really; mangling the data into a Google chart API URL was probably approximately as bothersome as writing the corresponding gnuplot datafile + command would've been.
16:34:12 <elliott> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D size column is distinctive enough
16:34:25 <elliott> fizzie: also gcharts are prettier :P
16:34:54 <fizzie> Oh, I could probably get quite similar output from gnuplot, it just always requires fiddling.
16:40:28 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:43:39 -!- FireFly has joined.
16:52:57 -!- augur has joined.
16:53:22 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
16:58:09 -!- azaq23 has joined.
16:58:21 <fizzie> Compare http://p.zem.fi/donv3 vs. http://zem.fi/~fis/donv.png -- lines are a bit less thick, and to get anti-aliased fonts I'd need to give a path to a .ttf file in some complicated manner (or use the "pngcairo" terminal, but I don't know how to do custom colors there), but other than that they're quite close.
17:01:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, the gnuplot antialiasing is better
17:02:20 <fizzie> That's because it doesn't have any.
17:06:46 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:14:21 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
17:17:13 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:20:01 -!- azaq23 has joined.
17:24:11 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
17:25:26 -!- sftp has joined.
17:44:41 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:00:19 <Gregor> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, incidentally, I started my explorations again after getting bored of the Himalayas.
18:00:22 <HackEgo> 338) <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, incidentally, I started my explorations again after getting bored of the Himalayas.
18:00:27 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
18:01:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:14:34 <zzo38> Instead of daylight saving time, make something else: At sunrise the time is "I /". At sunset the time is "/ I". Is OK with you?
18:19:04 <ais523> I'm not convinced I understand how that works
18:19:45 <lament> i have no idea what you're talking about, but in the past it was common to measure time by dividing the interval between sunrise and sunset into a constant number of hours
18:19:54 <zzo38> How it works is you do not need to keep changing the day for when daylight saving time is, because it is always at sunrise/sunset, no exceptions.
18:20:28 <lament> what if there's a big mountain to the east of you, so sunrise comes later?
18:20:51 <zzo38> You would still have the 24-hour clock too, going from "00:00J" to "23:59J" (or Z if you want the same time everywhere)
18:21:15 <lament> does J stand for Jupiter
18:21:25 <zzo38> No. J stands for local time.
18:21:59 <zzo38> No. Z stands for GMT/UTC/Zulu time.
18:22:43 <zzo38> lament: And I am not sure what happen if there is the mountain. Don't they count sunrise by the horizon though? I don't know?
18:24:04 <Gregor> What I really want is for the value of a second to vary depending on the season. That helps a lot with organizing timetables. "We'll have a one-hour meeting. No, wait, that'll be in February, let's make it a two-hour meeting, that should be about an hour."
18:24:50 <lament> it will also vary depending on the latitude
18:25:12 <zzo38> Gregor: Why? That doesn't seem very good.....
18:25:18 <Gregor> "We'll be having a one-hour meeting (1.5 hours in Canada)"
18:25:21 <Gregor> zzo38: This is /your idea/.
18:26:27 <zzo38> Gregor: It isn't my idea for hours or seconds or anything like that to vary at any time.
18:26:59 <lament> i think time should be absolute, everywhere
18:27:13 <lament> in order to achieve that we might have to accelerate the entire universe to the speed of light
18:27:21 <lament> it seems worth it, no?
18:27:36 <zzo38> Time cannot be absolute, spacetime is relative.
18:27:55 <Gregor> zzo38: Then your idea is to have a rather arbitrary symbol meaning "sunrise" and another one meaning "sunset". But we already have these symbols, they're "sunrise" and "sunset".
18:28:01 <zzo38> But that doesn't mean we cannot use the same units everywhere.
18:28:58 <zzo38> Gregor: These symbols mean something different. Where during the daylight hours, we have a roman numeral followed by a fraction (in normal digits, with / for zero and 1/2 for one half, 3/4 for three quarter), in night hour is other way around.
18:34:29 <Gregor> And the roman numeral indicates what?
18:34:36 <Gregor> And the fraction indicates what, for that matter?
18:35:22 <zzo38> I do not know the units yet.
18:38:31 <zzo38> I do not know if they should be measured in hours, or in something else.
18:38:50 <coppro> Gregor: we already have that
18:38:54 <coppro> it's called Newfoundland
18:41:59 <zzo38> coppro: What does Newfoundland have to do with it?
18:49:31 <Gregor> Anybody with a medium-profile website familiar with those persistent semi-spam link exchange emails?
18:49:40 <Gregor> I just got one saying he'd send me a hat in return for a link :P
18:49:44 <Gregor> I'm actually tempted :P
18:54:36 <quintopia> or make it nonclickable. just plaintext
18:54:51 <quintopia> "copy and paste this if yoj want to go look at some shit"
18:55:36 <Gregor> Alternatively I could just put it there, wait for my hat, then remove it :P
18:57:13 <ais523> just make it really clear, "someone sent me a hat for this link"
18:57:27 <ais523> (the underline's going to be stripped by the +c mode, I assume?)
18:58:09 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, I agree, write that on there.
19:02:33 <Gregor> OH BTW GUYS: libc.so auction starts in five hours; if you haven't donated, now's a great time!
19:06:34 <zzo38> As a part of something I was testing, I had successfully converted RFC1 to DVI format without using TeX. Although when I downloaded it the carriage returns were missing and it came out with only the first line correct and the others too far to the right. When I added the carriage returns then it came out correct.
19:06:49 * Phantom__Hoover realises that he'd never pay £10 for an email address under normal circumstances.
19:07:19 <zzo38> I do not need or want any email address.
19:07:33 <Lymia> Are you sure zzo38 isn't a Markov chain bot?
19:08:09 <ais523> unless it was fed with zzo38ese as the seed information
19:08:22 <ais523> I assume zzo38 has his own competitive protocol with email
19:08:52 <Lymia> It must be something like glados then.
19:08:55 <Lymia> Faulty, and insane.
19:09:17 <zzo38> ais523: Actually I simply do not use email. Knuth stopped using email first, but I did not learn that until after I stopped using email.
19:09:36 <ais523> his secretary uses email, and relays important announcements to him
19:10:31 <zzo38> I have written a letter to him using paper mail instead. As it turned out I could get it delivered by someone I know who happened to be going to that area for business purposes, so I did not need a stamp.
19:11:14 <Phantom__Hoover> Does zzo38 have... wait, he *does* have his own version of logic.
19:11:45 <Lymia> And it's not a consistent system either.
19:14:16 * Phantom__Hoover wonders, futilely, why he calls modus ponens "Rule of Detachment".
19:14:46 <zzo38> Phantom__Hoover: Because Hofstadter called it that.
19:20:55 <Gregor> After looking at all the VPS providers, I'm tempted to buy in to one of the super-cheap ones (like $20/yr) just to see how bad it is :P
19:24:26 * Lymia injects zzo38 with estrogen
19:24:35 <Lymia> Let's use zzo38 as a test subject!
19:26:14 <zzo38> You cannot inject me with anything, because I am too far away
19:30:25 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:30:26 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
19:30:26 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:33:24 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:38:19 -!- impomatic has joined.
19:40:51 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:43:05 -!- sebbu has joined.
19:43:05 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
19:43:05 -!- sebbu has joined.
19:45:39 <zzo38> Would it be a useful machine command to have the INTERCAL select operator as well as its opposite command (the unselect operator)?
19:46:48 <ais523> is unselect unambiguous?
19:47:05 <ais523> select would be useful, though, I think
19:47:12 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, if all the extra bits are set to zero.
19:47:27 <ais523> I'm not sure that'd be so useful
19:47:34 <ais523> perhaps a command to do arbitrary permutations on bits would be better
19:48:03 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, maybe some command can be made something like that.
19:50:32 <zzo38> How do you think it would be done, what way of making such things would be best?
19:54:18 <zzo38> How much space and how much time needed for hardware implementations of different thing compares, such as addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, LFSR, NAND, XOR, etc?
19:56:01 <Vorpal> and NAND is probably the simplest one in CMOS
19:56:04 <Deewiant> Linear feedback shift register
19:57:50 <zzo38> Vorpal: Perhaps NAND is the simplest one in CMOS, but how to the others compare? (Both in space and in time) And is there other implementation other than CMOS depend which ones are more energy efficient or whatever are used in modern computers (which I don't know)?
19:58:15 <Vorpal> CMOS is the most energy efficient I know of
19:58:58 <Vorpal> and uh, sub is basically add but negating value first
19:59:00 <zzo38> Vorpal: OK. But still, how to the other things I listed compares? Like, how does LFSR compare with arithmetic? How does AND compare with OR and XOR? etc
19:59:35 <Vorpal> zzo38, too complicated to explain since I'm going to bed shortly. I suggest consulting a text book on digital logic.
19:59:49 <zzo38> Vorpal: And yes I know how subtract/add works like that, I have written programs in INTERCAL to do addition and subtraction, so I would have figured out these things.
19:59:53 <ais523> zzo38: arithmetic's tricky, e.g. there are several versions of addition, some better in time and some better in space
20:00:21 <Vorpal> ais523, generally you use full adders with some carry forwarding, no?
20:01:08 <ais523> as for logic, in CMOS NAND/NOR/NOT are equally easy, AND/OR have twice the space and time cost, XOR has something like three times the space cost and twice the time cost but I can't remember exactly
20:01:50 <ais523> with different synthesis methods it might work differently, e.g. I think there are TTL versions where NAND is easier than NOR with typical logic levels (unlike CMOS, TTL has asymmetrical levels)
20:02:13 <zzo38> But how does addition compare to multiplication, and how does addition compare to LFSR, and how does addition and LFSR compare to an increment or decrement counter?
20:02:19 <Vorpal> TTL wastes power though afaik
20:02:37 <Vorpal> zzo38, multiplication is way worse
20:03:07 <zzo38> Vorpal: By how much?
20:03:14 <Vorpal> not sure about LFSR. probably easier than addition.
20:03:37 <Vorpal> as no clue how inc/dec compare to addition. Slightly easier I'd guess
20:06:15 <zzo38> How much efficient would a computer be if LFSR was used for instruction counter (and also for a few other things) instead of increment? And if addition was not normally used for indexing arrays and stuff, but only sometimes when necessary? And also if there was other operations, such as INTERCAL select? And so on?
20:06:58 <ais523> it'd be less efficient with LFSR for increment, because even though it's an easier operation, CPU time is completely irrelevant in modern computers
20:07:05 <ais523> because memory bandwidth is a much larger issue
20:07:22 <ais523> and the memory wouldn't easily be able to pick up the necessary instructions in LFSR order
20:07:30 <ais523> you're trying to optimise the wrong thing
20:07:55 <Vorpal> and besides, there are slower components in a CPU than the IP.
20:08:10 <Ilari> AFAIK NAND and NOR are both equally simple in CMOS. Both are 4 transistors one deep.
20:08:12 <ais523> because you have so much happening on one cycle
20:08:23 <ais523> Ilari: indeed, that's what I said isn't it?
20:08:52 <Ilari> Actually, NOT is bit simpler than NAND/NOR (2 transistors one deep).
20:09:04 <ais523> oh, right, I missed that
20:09:16 <Vorpal> and that's what I said to. I just took them from zzo3's list. NOT and NOR weren't listed there
20:09:25 <Vorpal> so NAND was the simplest on the list
20:09:38 <zzo38> An idea would be if you have your program loops stored to the microcode so less memory access is needed?
20:10:37 <ais523> CPUs try to do that sort of thing automatically nowadays, it's what cache is for
20:10:54 <ais523> if you want to do it by hand rather than automatically, it's better to use an entirely different architecture
20:11:15 <zzo38> What kind of entirely different architecture?
20:14:30 <ais523> something with many more ALUs
20:14:40 <ais523> so you can take advantage of how much faster they are than memory
20:14:51 <ais523> then it also has to do arithmetic and memory activity at the same time
20:16:17 <Ilari> Hmm... How many classical CMOS gates with n inputs (all significant) there are? For 1 input, there is 1 (NOT). For 2 there are 2 (NAND and NOR), For 3 there are at least 8.
20:17:32 -!- TLUL has joined.
20:21:42 <Vorpal> Ilari, define significant
20:21:51 <Vorpal> Ilari, and afaik NAND is universal, no?
20:22:54 <ais523> not just that, it's constant-time universal
20:23:05 <Vorpal> ais523, hm that means?
20:23:27 <ais523> in that you can do any finite state combinatorial circuit with NAND gates stacked just 2 deep
20:23:31 <Ilari> That is, no inputs that are completely ignored.
20:24:28 <Vorpal> Ilari, what about AND and OR then for 2 inputs?
20:24:57 <Ilari> There is no AND nor OR CMOS gate (implementing those would require 2 gates).
20:24:57 <Vorpal> or wait, are those not classical?
20:25:38 <Vorpal> Ilari, there also the identity one for one input
20:26:37 <Ilari> Well, there's no buffer gate. CMOS tends to invert the value in each step.
20:27:32 <Vorpal> Ilari, there is the straight wire
20:28:09 <Ilari> Abstract interpratation. What is number of trees with each node labeled using one of n labels, each label used at least once and trees equivalent if for every subset of labels, there is path from root to leaf using only those labels in both or in neither.
20:29:59 <Ilari> E.g. NAND corresponds to two edges (labeled A and B) one after another. NOR would be two edges (A and B) in parallel.
20:31:34 <Ilari> The 3-label ones are ABC, {A,B,C}, A{B,C}, B{A,C}, C{A,B}, {AB,C}, {AC,B} and {BC,A}.
20:32:25 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:32:45 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
20:35:15 <Ilari> It is also equal to number of boolean functions with n variables present, only using AND and OR as logical operations.
20:35:33 <zzo38> In INTERCAL, although there is no command for arithmetic, some things still use counting such as RESUME and FORGET, and STASH stacks. Could a variant of INTERCAL be made that works so that an implementation does not need to have any arithmetic or counting in it?
20:59:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:59:41 -!- iconmaster has quit (Quit: ISCOM W00T).
20:59:45 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:00:59 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:16:56 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:41:27 <Gregor> Surely there must be some package that provides a /usr/sbin/sendmail-compatible interface without being a whole fekking MTA.
21:41:47 <Gregor> All I want is "I know how to look up MX records, connect to an SMTP server, and send mail"
21:44:17 <zzo38> Gregor: Write one if such thing does not yet exist.
21:44:47 <Gregor> I will do that with my infinite free time.
21:50:02 <fizzie> Gregor: There is "connect to a fixed SMTP server" sendmail-compatibles, if you have a suitable (ISP/provider) forwarding host handy.
21:51:01 <fizzie> (And not all the "real" mail servers are so over-complicated, I don't think, and most can be configured into a no-local-mail mode.)
21:51:39 <Gregor> "Connect to a fixed SMTP server" is so stupid, it's so much less additional effort for them to look up the proper MX host X_X
21:52:59 <fizzie> Yes, but the assumption is that the fixed SMTP server is "nearby" and properly maintained so that it can just fail if it can't reach it.
21:53:24 <fizzie> For arbitrary-destination mail you almost-need a queue for delayed-delivery attempts.
21:57:22 <olsner> plus it's common for all outgoing smtp traffic to be blocked except for a designated proxy
22:06:11 <Gregor> Maybe that's common in a business environment, but not on an arbitrary ISP.
22:06:38 <fizzie> It's common for arbitrary ISPs around these parts.
22:07:01 <Gregor> So you can only send email by using the ISP's SMTP server? Not your own, your school's, whatever?
22:07:23 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
22:07:37 <fizzie> You can usually connect to the TLS-wrapped SMTP port.
22:08:20 <zzo38> My ISP used to block SMTP, but we complained and they changed it.
22:08:27 <fizzie> I suppose that's what most authenticated SMTP uses nowadays, anyway.
22:08:31 <fizzie> They already need to provide the relay in any case, since "regular" applications like Thunderbird need an outgoing-email SMTP server.
22:08:53 <Gregor> Does your ISP provide you with an email address?
22:09:15 <Gregor> Mine doesn't, and to my knowledge doesn't provide a relay server, since they expect whatever email service you use to have one.
22:09:19 <Ilari> Ah, there are 9 3-input classic gates, not 8. And the amount of gates for n inputs is apparently A006126 in OEIS.
22:09:39 <fizzie> That's rather weird, from my viewpoint anyway.
22:09:46 <zzo38> Gregor: My ISP does, but I no longer use it and now it is full of junk and if you try to send a message to it, it will be blocked due to full mailbox.
22:09:46 <fizzie> Must be cultural differences.
22:10:16 <Gregor> fizzie: Why would you want your email address to be attached to your ISP? If you move or switch you're stuck.
22:10:58 <fizzie> Gregor: Of course you don't need to *use* it, but they all provide something like five mailboxes per connection.
22:11:54 <fizzie> Gregor: I don't think web-based email services used to provide a SMTP server anyway, "way back then". Does something like Hotmail do nowadays?
22:12:52 <Gregor> Purdue's email does, since IMAP/SMTP is the conventional way of using it.
22:13:01 <Gregor> I would imagine most school or corporate email servers do.
22:13:48 <fizzie> I'm not sure if our school does, since the "isp provides an outgoing email server" is so widespread thing here.
22:15:03 <Gregor> Y'know, "origin SMTP server != MX record for host" is one of the more common spam-identifying heuristics :P
22:15:05 <fizzie> All of hotmail/yahoo/gmail have their outgoing-mail servers in SSL/TLS non-25 ports so the no-outgoing-plain-SMTP block doesn't affect them anyway.
22:15:50 <fizzie> And that's a pretty sucky heuristic.
22:16:20 <Gregor> Since most people use webmail, it's a pretty accurate heuristic.
22:16:40 <Gregor> Of course you can lie and say you're relaying, but then that's another heuristic :P
22:18:29 <fizzie> Wouldn't that heuristic catch your sendmail-replacement-with-direct-SMTP sent emails too?
22:18:57 <Gregor> Do you understand the meaning of the word "heuristic"? :P
22:22:00 <fizzie> It just sounds like a not-so-good one to me. Though I guess it manages to not-match both your "random webmail user" and the thing I think of when someone says "email user", which is "someone with Outlook Express from the ISP's installation CD preconfigured to use the ISP's mailbox + outgoing server", which might be a bit dated view.
22:22:53 <fizzie> At least I've managed to substitute Outlook Express with that... what was it called? Not Pegasus Mail, the other one.
22:25:48 -!- elliott has joined.
22:25:53 <elliott> relevant: toad.com why do i keep
22:25:57 -!- elliott has left ("doing this").
22:27:11 <fizzie> Ah, Mr ellio "hopeless" tt strikes again.
22:28:01 <Gregor> I bought a $20 year's service at a VPS host I shall name "Retarded VPS Hosts Inc."
22:28:14 <Gregor> I was just too curious to see how awful $20/y VPS hosting is :P
22:32:19 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Confusing yourself is a way to stay honest.).
22:35:04 <ais523> hmm, mysql.com was just hacked
22:37:51 <oerjan> i guess oracle couldn't predict that
22:38:44 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.5.18/20110319140258]).
22:39:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:41:42 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:42:38 -!- wareya has joined.
22:48:54 <olsner> elaborate marketing prank: look at the extra security afforded by our enterprise database!
22:56:51 * oerjan suddenly realizes "marketing" means "worm eating" in norwegian
23:14:34 <Gregor> Funny, same in English.
23:24:19 -!- TLUL has changed nick to TLUL|afk.
23:29:16 <Gregor> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GaKaGwch0U Hyuk
23:29:39 <Gregor> I've never seen the original, so I can easily convince myself that this is the "correct" version :P
23:38:45 -!- TLUL|afk has changed nick to TLUL.
23:43:39 -!- TLUL has changed nick to TLUL|afk.
23:45:10 <olsner> Gregor: that's probably the best version of it
00:00:24 -!- cheater00 has joined.
00:02:02 -!- TLUL|afk has changed nick to TLUL.
00:03:08 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:19:05 <Gregor> In principle, the libc.so auction has started.
00:19:11 <Gregor> In practice, IT HAS VANISHED FROM THE MATERIAL PLANE
00:24:35 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:33:28 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:45:08 -!- augur has joined.
00:53:12 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:56:59 -!- variable has joined.
01:00:09 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
01:14:31 <Gregor> I have at least one active competitor for libc.so
01:15:23 <Sgeo> And it turned out.... IT WAS GREGOR FROM THE FUTURE
01:18:18 <oerjan> he was sent back to prevent Ulrich Drepper from getting it, but something went wrong in the planning
01:29:56 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:40:55 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:55:15 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
02:55:50 -!- TLUL has changed nick to TLUL|afk.
03:03:07 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
03:35:35 -!- TLUL|afk has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*).
04:11:33 <oerjan> today's xkcd reminds me of a dream i had that i may have mentioned here before
04:15:53 <Sgeo> Did you dream that xkcd would remind you of a dream?
04:16:32 <oerjan> no, the dream did not have anything to do with xkcd, afair
04:16:41 <oerjan> i'm not sure i'd heard of xkcd then.
04:17:41 <oerjan> it did include a wall map of the place i was in, that somehow became identical to the place itself.
04:18:57 <oerjan> and when something touched the spot of the map where the map itself was, everything started dissolving into pixels.
04:20:11 <oerjan> it was probably inspired by another comic i'd seen before with a similar theme.
04:21:09 <oerjan> (someone pointing to the "you are here" mark on a map, and people around them panicking as a giant finger appears from the sky)
04:23:45 <Sgeo> That sounds PBF-like, but I don't recall any such PBF
04:24:15 <oerjan> no, it's from the 90's at least. it may have been bizarro.
04:25:38 <oerjan> i mean i have a vague picture in my head that _looks_ like a bizarro comic
04:27:40 <Sgeo> "If my math is correct, I just helped pay off 10% of the debt. $1.50 divided by $15 trillion = 10% right?"
04:28:00 -!- zzo38 has joined.
04:28:04 <Sgeo> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2116548608/help-erase-the-national-debt-of-the-usa/comments
04:29:36 <zzo38> I found a code that displays "Just another _______ hacker" with the name of the programming language filled in, working for these programming languages: C, C++, Perl, Plain TeX, PostScript, LaTeX, zsh, Bourne Shell. (For TeX, PostScript, and LaTeX, it prints the text on the paper) Now we could add in even more, including some esoteric programming, too.
04:30:18 <Sgeo> I thought you hated LaTeX
04:30:39 <zzo38> Is true, I do not like LaTeX. However, I found this code. (I have not tested it at all)
04:31:53 <zzo38> (I did not write this code. I do not even know how to write a code in PostScript.)
04:33:16 <Sgeo> Oh, a polygot-like thing that prints whatever language it's being used as?
04:33:35 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, that is what it is.
04:33:37 <Sgeo> How does it differentiate between C and C++?
04:34:08 <Sgeo> I guess C++ has comments that C doesn't, hmm
04:34:21 <zzo38> No, that is not how it does it.
04:34:32 <Sgeo> Link to it maybe?
04:34:34 <zzo38> There it is: http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?displaytype=displaycode;node_id=520121
04:35:31 <zzo38> I guess there is a difference in sizeof in C++?
04:36:23 <Sgeo> How does %: avoid being a syntax error in C and C++?
04:37:26 <zzo38> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digraphs_and_trigraphs#C
04:45:31 -!- asiekierka has joined.
05:05:18 <oerjan> ah it was bizarro indeed
05:06:16 <oerjan> hm let me see if i can find that date on the web
05:06:49 <Vorpal> "++"+2*(1%sizeof'2') <-- that makes no sense to me
05:07:58 <Vorpal> is sizeof '2' not 1 in C++?
05:08:34 <Vorpal> wait a second. That doesn't work. It is division by zero then
05:08:58 <Vorpal> I can't see how that code can ever work for C++...
05:09:23 <Vorpal> unless it relies on undefined behaviour
05:10:29 <Vorpal> it is quite clear how it works for C, by advancing the pointer two steps you get the null string
05:11:31 <Vorpal> Sgeo, oerjan, zzo38: I'm confused, how can that code ever work for the C++ case?
05:11:36 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
05:13:07 <Vorpal> oh well, have to leave, cya
05:13:39 <oerjan> it's March 21 1999, but i cannot find it on the web :(
05:17:24 <oerjan> you want 1%sizeof'2' to be 1 for c++ and 0 for c, i presume
05:18:03 <oerjan> assuming string pointers work the same in both
05:18:48 <oerjan> if sizeof'2' is anything > 1 in c++, that should work
05:20:44 <oerjan> oh wait i'm thinking backwards
05:21:31 <oerjan> !c printf("%d", (sizeof'2'));
05:21:51 <Sgeo> How is sizeof'2' 4?
05:21:53 <oerjan> !c++ printf("%d", (sizeof'2'));
05:22:11 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
05:22:21 <Sgeo> !help languages
05:22:21 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
05:22:22 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
05:22:35 <oerjan> !cxx printf("%d", (sizeof'2'));
05:23:15 <Sgeo> that's just bizarre
05:23:20 <Sgeo> Why is.. those things?
05:24:05 <oerjan> why is the size of a character constant 4 in C?
05:24:34 <oerjan> !c printf("%d", (sizeof'1'));
05:24:45 <oerjan> !c printf("%d", (sizeof('1')));
05:26:00 <zzo38> A character constant in C is "int" type
05:34:37 <fizzie> That's something C++ changes.
05:34:41 <fizzie> Oh, you tested that too.
05:37:24 <oerjan> yes, that seems to explain the c/c++ difference in the polyglot
05:37:39 <fizzie> C++ also has multicharacter literals of type 'int'.
05:37:48 <fizzie> !cxx printf("%d", sizeof('ab'))
05:38:20 <fizzie> (The actual value of such a thing is implementation-defined.)
05:38:42 <fizzie> !cxx printf("%04x", (unsigned)'ab');
05:39:19 <fizzie> That's I guess the obvious choice.
05:41:35 -!- lament has joined.
05:45:11 <fizzie> I like how the polyglot uses the %: digraph for # in the #include <stdio.h> part.
05:49:00 -!- dbc has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
05:49:18 <fizzie> !c char *p = "unreadable"; if (1) <% printf("digraphs are so %s", &p<:2:>); %>
05:49:21 <EgoBot> digraphs are so readable
05:49:28 -!- dbc has joined.
06:48:23 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Write this somewhere else.).
07:20:02 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
08:36:04 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
09:56:40 -!- ais523 has joined.
10:05:00 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:07:00 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:16:43 -!- cheater99 has joined.
11:17:15 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
11:32:38 -!- ais523_ has joined.
12:09:07 -!- ais523_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
12:18:53 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
12:19:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
12:32:51 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:33:31 -!- sftp has joined.
12:36:01 <Gregor> OMG, this domain bidding site is evil/clever.
12:36:54 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
12:37:05 <Gregor> "Please note that when the leader of an auction is outbid in the last 24 hours of the scheduled auction close, the auction will extend to close 24 hours after the leader change occurred."
12:38:49 -!- ais523_ has joined.
12:39:30 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
12:41:15 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
12:42:44 -!- ais523_ has quit (Client Quit).
12:43:45 <Vorpal> Gregor, so how goes the auction?
12:44:14 <Gregor> I'm in the lead for libm but it now won't be closing 'til tomorrow, I'm not in the lead for libc but it's only at $60 and there's a week left.
12:45:13 <Vorpal> Gregor, so how much is libm up at then?
12:45:25 <Gregor> Too much already, $110 :P
12:47:45 <Vorpal> likely libc will go higher
12:47:54 <Vorpal> it is somewhat more famous than libm
12:48:47 <Vorpal> Gregor, is this the yearly cost or a one-time cost you are bidding for?
12:49:33 <Gregor> What sort of bizarre universe has a bid for yearly-cost on a domain name :P
12:49:41 <Gregor> I'm not paying hundreds/year on this shit :P
13:00:46 <Sgeo_> Is it acceptable to wear a shirt twice not in a row without washing?
13:15:15 -!- augur has joined.
13:18:48 <variable> Sgeo_: depends on the type of shit
13:27:27 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
13:27:28 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
13:28:19 -!- sftp has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
13:32:11 -!- sftp has joined.
13:35:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
13:48:19 -!- copumpkin has joined.
13:59:33 -!- cheater00 has joined.
14:00:21 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:01:55 -!- azaq23 has joined.
14:09:42 -!- FireFly has joined.
14:12:30 -!- sftp_ has joined.
14:13:09 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
14:14:45 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
14:32:42 -!- cheater- has joined.
14:34:18 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:43:14 -!- asiekierka has joined.
14:50:17 <Gregor> El Cheapo Hosting Inc upgraded my plan X-D
15:09:06 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:24:07 -!- lament has joined.
15:32:29 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:43:59 <oerjan> zzo reads godel's letter? http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2011/03/09/tex-is-great-what-is-tex/#comment-11392
15:59:04 -!- Slereah has joined.
16:00:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:03:21 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.19: 2M to Pakistan, 32k to Singapore, 1M to South Korea, 2k+/32 to Japan, 2k to Indonesia, /32 to Hong Kong.
16:06:43 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:07:42 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
16:09:34 <Ilari> New depletion estimate (using the same random algo as the last time): Friday 15th April.
16:16:01 -!- zzo38 has joined.
16:20:42 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
16:22:12 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:29:34 <augur> whats it called when you have two programs battling for memory?
16:30:25 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:37:14 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
16:56:40 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:06:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
17:07:18 -!- pumpkin has joined.
17:07:34 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:11:27 -!- cal153 has joined.
17:19:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:21:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
17:25:07 -!- cheater00 has joined.
17:26:09 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
17:30:33 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:30:44 -!- asiekierka has joined.
17:41:09 -!- elliott has joined.
17:41:11 <elliott> 05:21:31: <oerjan> !c printf("%d", (sizeof'2'));
17:41:15 <elliott> 05:22:35: <oerjan> !cxx printf("%d", (sizeof'2'));
17:41:37 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
17:42:46 <elliott> 13:00:46: <Sgeo_> Is it acceptable to wear a shirt twice not in a row without washing?
17:42:47 -!- elliott has left.
17:58:42 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:02:44 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:03:08 -!- cheater99 has joined.
18:04:19 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:06:40 <Ilari> Whoop: 2.019 blocks this month. Crazy.
18:22:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:48:40 -!- cheater00 has joined.
18:49:27 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:49:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:56:53 -!- impomatic has joined.
18:57:35 -!- augur has joined.
18:57:52 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:59:19 -!- augur has joined.
19:00:25 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:22:43 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:26:36 -!- cheater99 has joined.
19:26:47 <Gregor> glogbot is now backed by glogbackup, running on Fly By Wire VPS Survisses!
19:27:15 <Gregor> Rest assured, should glogbot go down, Fly By Wire Inc. has your data.
19:27:57 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:29:22 <Ilari> APNIC relative allocations last 30 days: ~86%
19:33:46 <fizzie> Relative to what? Total amount of allocations?
19:34:43 <Gregor> HALP my advisor and the postdoc working on this project are both sitting AT MY DESK
19:34:55 <Ilari> RIPE NCC: 8.0%, AFRINIC: 3.5%, LACNIC: 1.4%, ARIN: 1.2%
19:35:03 <fizzie> It's all good as long as they're not sitting ON YOUR DESK.
19:38:36 <Ilari> At rate shown in last 30 days, RIPE NCC would deplete in about a year. Of course, there is considerable seasonal variation.
19:41:51 <Phantom_Hoover> <Gregor> glogbot is now backed by glogbackup, running on Fly By Wire VPS Survisses™! ← is that the ultra-cheap one?
19:42:43 <Phantom_Hoover> In other news, my idiot chemistry teacher has outdone herself.
19:43:04 <Phantom_Hoover> She incoherently argued with me for several minutes that relative atomic masses are unitless.
19:43:39 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: That's my name for the ultra-cheap one :P
19:43:43 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:48:08 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: But so far it actually seems just fine. Very get-what-you-pay-for, but no real problems.
19:57:21 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:01:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:04:42 <oerjan> <Gregor> I'M SURROUNDED D-8
20:04:49 <oerjan> clearly you must blast your way out
20:05:09 <Gregor> I'll do a barrel roll!
20:16:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor is stunned into silence by the extremity of the measure.
20:17:22 <Gregor> No, I'm just STILL SURROUNDED >_<
20:20:11 <Sgeo> What is this the Device?
20:33:55 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:46:52 -!- iconmaster has joined.
20:49:57 -!- iconmaster has quit (Client Quit).
20:52:32 -!- sftp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:02:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:08:13 -!- sftp has joined.
21:24:54 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:28:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:30:28 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:33:14 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:33:39 -!- jcp has joined.
22:08:39 -!- augur has joined.
22:17:13 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.5.18/20110319140258]).
22:25:58 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Taking out the thrash).
22:30:19 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:30:20 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:40:16 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:45:29 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:48:09 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:54:24 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:12:55 -!- cheater00 has joined.
23:15:32 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:15:55 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
23:23:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:38:08 -!- copumpkin has joined.
23:42:41 -!- elliott has joined.
23:42:48 <elliott> <elliott> If p is a pointer, is p[-1] defined equivalent to *(p-1)? I know array[-1] is undefined.
23:43:45 <Mathnerd314> I'd expect it to be that in practice... check a spec
23:47:22 <elliott> I suppose I'll find a pyrate C89 standard.
23:48:59 <Mathnerd314> there's a draft: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/WG14/www/docs/n1256.pdf
23:49:43 <elliott> http://flash-gordon.me.uk/ansi.c.txt ;; is greppable.
23:49:56 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:50:29 <elliott> Seems like [] isn't even defined for pointers X_X
23:51:09 <oerjan> um i'm pretty sure i've read that a[b] is precisely equal to *(a+b) ...
23:51:16 <coppro> elliott: array[-1] is only undefined because *(array-1) is out of bounds usually
23:51:22 <elliott> oerjan: i'm trying to find the definition for pointers :)
23:51:24 <oerjan> 3["abc"] and all that...
23:51:31 <elliott> oerjan: but the C standard is wily.
23:51:31 <coppro> elliott: actually, it isn't defined for arrays
23:51:35 <elliott> oerjan: anyway it is not precisely equal.
23:51:36 <coppro> it is equivalent for pointers
23:51:43 <coppro> arrays just decay into pointers
23:51:43 <elliott> foo[n] is only defined for 0 <= n < array length
23:51:53 <elliott> ofc, *(foo+n) is only defined for 0 <= n < array length
23:52:20 <elliott> int foo[3]; /* I very much doubt foo[3] is well-defined */
23:52:50 <oerjan> foo+n is for n <= array length, but you may not be able to dereference it i guess
23:53:06 <elliott> you just can't dereference it without UB
23:53:19 <elliott> actually i don't even want that, it seems :(
23:53:25 <elliott> struct foo { blah *foo[0]; }
23:53:28 <elliott> which is invalid right from the start
23:53:32 <elliott> and then I want to do x->foo[-1]
23:53:37 <oerjan> elliott: no, i vaguely recall that it is perfectly possible for pointer arithmetic outside those bounds to crash
23:53:37 <elliott> which is definitely invalid, I think
23:53:46 <elliott> oerjan: Errrrr, I hope not
23:53:49 <oerjan> even if you don't dereference
23:54:55 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i've seen something like that
23:55:12 <oerjan> otherwise why include foo+array length as a specifically permitted case
23:56:02 <elliott> btw it's not so much "to crash" as "UB" ;D
23:56:18 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:56:39 <elliott> maybe i'll just do the invalid thing :)
23:57:47 <oerjan> well i used crash as a synonym, of course
00:00:11 <oerjan> elliott: http://c-faq.com/aryptr/non0based.html
00:16:16 <elliott> !c extern void (*test)(int); test(3, 42);
00:16:26 <elliott> !c void (*test)(int); test(3, 42);
00:16:40 <elliott> Gregor: PLEASE MAKE THAT PRINT THE DIAGNOSTICS
00:18:05 <oerjan> um it has two arguments and you declare just one?
00:18:59 <oerjan> !c void (*test)(int); test(3);
00:19:01 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 21422 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
00:19:28 <oerjan> that would appear to have something to do with it, then
00:19:50 <oerjan> !c void (*test)(); test(3, 42);
00:19:52 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 21527 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
00:19:57 <elliott> <oerjan> um it has two arguments and you declare just one?
00:20:12 <elliott> i want something that is known to require one argument, but might require more
00:23:23 <oerjan> http://c-faq.com/varargs/index.html might help?
00:24:06 <elliott> that's for variadic functions
00:24:08 <elliott> I'm talking about function pointers
00:24:16 <elliott> !c void (*test)(int, ...); test(3, 42);
00:24:18 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 21892 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
00:24:20 <elliott> it might have different semantics
00:24:26 <elliott> (variadic functions can be implemented however, pretty much)
00:24:42 <oerjan> well it did compile...
00:24:59 <elliott> yes, but test(3, 42) could be the same as test(3, MAGIC)))42{{
00:25:04 <elliott> as in, AFAIK there's no guarantee that
00:25:13 <elliott> are called in "the same way" if one is variadic and the other is not
00:27:32 <oerjan> ok but doesn't that just mean that test must be a pointer that was declared in the same way?
00:29:08 <variable> Gregor: how goes the libc.so auction?
00:29:19 <Gregor> variable: It's barely started
00:29:55 <variable> elliott: I'm supposed to say that....
00:30:02 <elliott> oerjan: hey, McCarthy did it
00:30:57 <oerjan> well supposedly it has its uses
00:31:09 <elliott> oerjan: e.g. standard output handle
00:31:21 <elliott> oerjan: like a global stack
00:31:32 <elliott> (let ((*standard-output* ...)) (function-which-prints))
00:31:33 <oerjan> i recall someone worked out how they should interact with delimited continuations
00:31:55 <elliott> Common Lisp, Racket and many Schemes all have dynamic vars
00:32:06 <Sgeo> Factor also has dynamic vars!
00:32:09 <oerjan> well even haskell does
00:32:57 <elliott> oerjan: hm you mean the ?foo things
00:33:16 <elliott> oerjan: but lisp before 1.5 was always dynamic :)
00:33:32 <elliott> when this first came up, one of the developers responded that the behaviour must be a bug and they'll get fixing it quickly
00:33:44 <elliott> then they realised the scoping was broken :D
00:34:21 <oerjan> took them a while, i take
00:34:27 <elliott> oerjan: well, even 1.5 was dynamic
00:34:33 <elliott> but it had closures with FUNARG
00:34:40 <elliott> so you could define lexically-scoped functions
00:34:44 <elliott> lisp 1.5 was a mess btw :D
00:34:54 <elliott> "In a language with DynamicScoping, a DynamicClosure is a function which will be evaluated in the dynamic environment it was created in rather than the one it is called from."
00:35:46 <elliott> which also reminded me of the fun fact that lisp 1.5 toplevel was evalquote
00:35:52 <oerjan> the WikiLinks sort of gave it away
00:36:07 <elliott> oerjan: it could have been meatball!
00:36:16 <elliott> or all three other OldStyleWikis
00:37:34 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:37:57 -!- oklopol has joined.
00:39:47 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:39:56 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:41:20 <Sgeo> OldStyleWikis that aren't c2 exist?
00:41:22 <oerjan> well it's reasonably ok at the time, i guess
00:41:39 <oklopol> elliott: i had a dream that you came back here some time last week
00:41:45 <elliott> oklopol: i'm just here to talk to oerjan :)
00:41:51 <elliott> because ##c failed at answering my question
00:41:55 <elliott> then oerjan fumbled in an attempt to answer
00:42:03 <elliott> ya, but oerjan knows nothing about c
00:42:06 <elliott> so why would i ask him that question
00:42:11 * oerjan subtly puts a noose around elliott's foot
00:42:30 <oklopol> i don't care why you're back, all i know is my dreams have come true
00:42:32 -!- Zuu has joined.
00:42:48 <oklopol> also i have a master's degree, yays for me
00:43:08 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:43:17 <elliott> and HE'S borderline retarded
00:43:29 <elliott> also, i hate all fags. and all non-fags.
00:44:02 <oklopol> well these things take time when you're as slow as me
00:44:15 <Sgeo> I hate anyone who's ever had a wrong thought
00:44:46 <Sgeo> Incorrect, immoral, take your pic
00:45:57 * Sgeo would like to have an immortal thought
00:46:34 <variable> elliott: what is the question - curious?
00:47:01 <elliott> variable: <elliott> <elliott> If p is a pointer, is p[-1] defined equivalent to *(p-1)? I know array[-1] is undefined.
00:47:16 <elliott> I know that array[n] is only defined for 0 <= n < array length
00:47:22 <elliott> but this is because (array+n) is
00:47:30 <elliott> (maybe <= on the last one there)
00:47:39 <variable> elliott: I'd guess yes - but I don't have a copy of the standard to check
00:48:06 <elliott> unfortunately my situation is not adequately described by that question unlike what i first thought :)
00:48:51 <variable> <elliott> (maybe <= on the last one there) --> no
00:49:13 <elliott> so "if (array_pointer < array + array_size)" is invalid/UB :D
00:49:28 <elliott> you need "if (array_pointer <= array + (array_size - 1))"
00:53:46 <elliott> i hate it when gcc builds, because it's a precursor to having to use gcc
00:58:14 <oerjan> again, that's for (array+n)
01:02:20 <variable> elliott: heh - I prefer using clang - but I'm doing some benchmarking now
01:03:02 <elliott> variable: unfortunately clang is C++ :)
01:03:58 <variable> elliott: I have no problems with C++
01:04:10 <elliott> variable: From a language POV or a programs-use-it POV?
01:04:15 <elliott> And no, gcc as of 4.6.0 does not have any C++ yet.
01:04:27 <elliott> Or at least as of 4.5.2, I haven't checked 4.6.0 specifically.
01:04:43 <variable> elliott: I do know that gcc core@ approved the use of C++ in the program though
01:04:49 <elliott> Yes, but it hasn't happened yet.
01:05:07 <elliott> variable: From a language POV, C++ is absolutely insane and would be best forgotten. From a programs-use-it POV, some alternative libcs do not support it.
01:05:16 <variable> to answer the first question: I would not be against using g++ to get "c with classes" or related types of functionality. To be honest: I'd love to see people use "C++ subset" instead of C
01:05:25 <elliott> musl is looking into working with LLVM's libc++ though.
01:05:37 <elliott> variable: have you ever read the C++ FQA?
01:05:43 <elliott> The idea of a C plus a class is not inherently bad.
01:05:53 <elliott> But the subset of C++ that is just (not) C plus a class is bad.
01:06:00 <variable> C as a language is just too bloated, but many of the ideas are decent
01:06:00 <variable> And yes I've read the C++ FAQ, the C++ Standard, and the TRs for C++
01:06:05 <elliott> ((not) C because C++ is NOT compatible with C99.)
01:06:44 <variable> elliott: oh http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/ --> a while ago
01:07:17 <elliott> It's a good summary of why even the basic features of C++ are broken.
01:07:21 <variable> elliott: also, I know C99 and C++ are not compatible (neither way C89)
01:07:48 <elliott> Anyway, I would prefer people not use C++ or C at all, but if I had to choose I'd choose C.
01:08:16 <elliott> You can do "objects" in C (come on, you have structs and functions), and encapsulation of those objects. (Inheritance is a pain, but inheritance is evil anyway.)
01:08:31 <elliott> C is not a convenient language, but C is not at a convenient level.
01:08:51 <variable> elliott: yes - but it exposes the implementation of those objects and encapsulation; you could just use the already done version of those with C++
01:08:52 <elliott> C++-as-C-with-classes removes C's advantage, i.e. being low-level, and adds a bad version of objects on top.
01:09:03 <elliott> C++ in full is plain insane.
01:09:08 <variable> elliott: I would (and generally do) choose C with classes (in C++) when I write code that needs the low-level code.
01:09:17 <elliott> variable: Exposes the implementation of encapsulation?
01:09:22 <elliott> Please, try and violate the encapsulation of FILE.
01:09:38 <elliott> Protip: you can't because it's "typedef struct ... FILE;"
01:09:40 -!- cal153 has joined.
01:09:41 <variable> elliott: what I meant by that is that: there is no reason to implement that in C when you have a C++
01:09:42 <Sgeo> C++ exposes implementation unless you take pains to tell it not to
01:09:48 <elliott> variable: But you do NOT have that in C.
01:09:54 <elliott> I am not saying - implement an object system in C.
01:10:00 <elliott> I am saying C already has the tools to solve the problems.
01:10:02 <variable> elliott: ah - I thought you were
01:10:17 <variable> elliott: tbh: I'd love to design my own low level C like language
01:10:33 <variable> this is starting to get into religious wars
01:10:40 <Sgeo> My own.. personal.. C like language...
01:10:42 <elliott> i.e., 90% of the time in a design a struct (almost certainly containing other structs) and some functions serves perfectly well.
01:10:57 <elliott> The other 10% of the time you can still work something out (see: the fact that large systems are written in C).
01:11:14 <elliott> C isn't a language without flaws, in fact it sucks quite fatally. But I'd still rather people use it than C++...
01:11:30 * variable refuses to continue further - I'm aware of issues and I don't think this conversation will do much
01:11:47 <elliott> I'm not arguing with you, however.
01:12:17 <variable> elliott: sorry - I just had a *really* bad day
01:13:43 <zzo38> You can also use structures that have function pointers
01:14:03 <elliott> yeah, but that is only useful when there is a need
01:14:27 <elliott> variable: honestly though, it's a bit of a pointless argument in the first place as I'd rather nobody coded in C at all :)
01:14:55 <variable> elliott: well - for über low level things I don't mind C (its basically assembler macros) but in general I agree with you
01:15:08 <elliott> well, I wish C semantics were as simple as assembler macros :)
01:15:16 <variable> everyone has their anti-language :-)
01:15:17 <zzo38> Whatever thing you can do by object oriented, you can do some things without object oriented, by using structures, unions, function pointers, preprocessor macros, and so on.
01:15:34 <elliott> IMO everything (including drivers) should be in trusted code. I want to say "managed" code, but hate to imply a VM.
01:15:46 <variable> zzo38: you can do anything you can do in python in Assembly; question is is it worth it
01:16:00 <zzo38> elliott: Would it be, but one assembler is only for one computer. C is for the same program all computer.
01:16:22 <Sgeo> Clojure's argument is that you don't need all of the benefits of objects at once. You should be able to pick and choose.
01:16:27 <variable> elliott: I would be interested in seeing some sandbox that only lets people do input & output and nothing else.
01:16:44 <variable> elliott: and the rest could be formally verified code with a small footprint
01:16:47 <elliott> variable: Err, everything is input and output.
01:17:04 <zzo38> elliott: Because, that is why I program in C. The purpose of C is so that you can write one program on other computers too.
01:17:05 <elliott> variable: I'm talking e.g. a system based on capabilities
01:17:20 <elliott> variable: such that it would be possible to run all code in ring 0 :)
01:17:28 <elliott> (eliminating the (large) overhead of syscalls)
01:17:33 <elliott> (uh, and the concept of syscalls...)
01:17:46 <elliott> zzo38: You can do that in any language that isn't assembly.
01:18:18 <variable> elliott: zzo38: completely unrelated, I asked this in here a while ago but only Gregor anwered
01:18:41 <Sgeo> Unless it's a self-hosted compiler, the non-self-hosted version from the past lost to time, and not ported to the target architecture
01:18:43 <variable> Have you ever written a feature complete, non-trivial, bug-free, program that other people use?
01:19:14 <elliott> variable: Answering that question required omniscience.
01:19:36 <elliott> Which is not feature complete, trivial, has bugs, and nobody uses it! ;D
01:19:38 <zzo38> variable: I don't know. I did write some programs for specific customers.
01:19:46 <variable> elliott: by bug-free I mean: no known bugs with reasonable testing
01:19:48 <Sgeo> I think the last time I wrote a non-trivial program on my own was PSOX. Or maybe Evolution. But Evolution wasn't on my own. And PSOX, while intended to be used by others... what elliott said
01:19:55 <Sgeo> elliott, trivial?
01:20:03 <Sgeo> I take offense to that!
01:20:04 <elliott> variable: That's VERY hard to define.
01:20:23 <elliott> For instance, I don't think the current mcmap revision, which I've contributed a non-trivial amount of code to, has any KNOWN bugs, but I am almost certain it contains bugs.
01:20:24 <variable> elliott: define it as you will, I'm sure you get the intent of the question
01:20:28 <Sgeo> The last committed version of PSOX has a syntax error. I don't know why.
01:20:36 <elliott> "Feature complete" is basically impossible to define too, every program can have more features :P
01:21:03 <variable> elliott: by "feature complete" I mean: that which you have no interest in adding more features too and/or has accomplished its states goals
01:21:16 <variable> again: I'm sure you get the intent of the question
01:21:34 <elliott> I presume the intent is to demonstrate that basically no such programs exist.
01:21:43 <elliott> Apart from those that are old and used extensively in industry.
01:21:49 <variable> zzo38: I could answer yes to two programs I've written. Other than thay they are either not bug-free or not feature complete
01:21:56 <elliott> And whose needs never change.
01:22:20 <zzo38> TeXnicard might be good, if, later I could also make it so that external programs are not required anymore. But it is not quite complete I am sure it has bugs too probably
01:22:22 <variable> elliott: the intent of my question is something along the lines of "have you ever finished or completed a program?"
01:22:28 <zzo38> variable: Which two programs?
01:22:32 <elliott> variable: You don't finish programs.
01:22:46 <elliott> variable: A finished program is a program that nobody uses any more.
01:22:57 <variable> zzo38: one was a program to manage users and such for Google Apps
01:23:20 <Sgeo> elliott, so PSOX is finished!
01:23:32 <elliott> I very much doubt that program has no bugs.
01:23:44 <elliott> variable: Anyway, I wrote an implementation of cat once or twice.
01:23:49 <elliott> That is feature-complete, bug-free.
01:24:44 <zzo38> Some of my programs, it even says so, in the program, that it can certainly be improved.
01:25:05 <variable> elliott: it was written for a contract with specific features in mind and it completed all those tasks without any bugs (after a year of testing)
01:25:47 <variable> elliott: python. I do NOT count language implementation bugs as relevant here (just as I don't count faulty hardware as bugs)
01:25:53 <elliott> variable: The program has bugs.
01:26:38 <Sgeo> elliott, variable could secretly be God.
01:26:42 <elliott> Well, for one Python allows any value to be None, which is obviously extremely dangerous
01:27:05 <elliott> I would be very surprised if it didn't have bugs even going by that alone.
01:27:06 <variable> elliott: I've got to run right now.
01:27:22 <variable> elliott: actually: important phone call
01:29:26 <zzo38> I think it is very simple making telephone, just the switch, microphone, speaker. Now you can call anyone, receive telephone call, and even call waiting can work (however, I do not like to subscribe to call waiting).
01:29:38 <elliott> Who cares how simple it is to make?
01:30:19 <zzo38> Did you make a telephone like that?
01:30:56 <zzo38> And if you don't like it, you can disconnect it.
01:31:27 <elliott> (1) No. I don't want to. (2) I already know I wouldn't like it, so why bother?
01:31:39 <Gregor> Everyone who has not yet contributed to the libc.so fund: There is still time! As those who do not contribute will be required to enter the Evisceration Chamber within 48 hours of the end of the auction, those who have not yet donated are highly advised to consider it!
01:31:56 <zzo38> What is a Evisceration Chamber?
01:32:15 <elliott> zzo38: A chamber where you will be eviscerated.
01:32:15 <Gregor> Exactly what it sounds like.
01:32:58 <zzo38> I do not think I can send the money anyways. Even if I did want to use that service. And I do not need that service.
01:33:43 <zzo38> elliott: To where?
01:34:12 <zzo38> Sorry, I don't live there.
01:34:18 <elliott> That doesn't mean you can't send money there.
01:34:28 <Gregor> This is quite the conversation.
01:34:38 <Sgeo> zzo38 would need to make his own money transfer service first.
01:35:02 <zzo38> I don't even know how much money it costs.
01:36:08 <elliott> zzo38: It does not cost any money, you just give him some amount to use to buy libc.so.
01:36:12 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:36:13 <elliott> It can be as much as you can afford.
01:36:38 <zzo38> How can I decide what amount if I don't know how much it costs?
01:36:51 -!- wareya has joined.
01:36:51 <Sgeo> zzo38, Gregor doesn't know. It's an auction
01:37:13 <Gregor> You don't need to donate much to avoid the Evisceration Chamber.
01:37:35 <elliott> zzo38: Just decide to give as much as you think Gregor deserves to help him buy libc.so in the auction.
01:37:42 <elliott> So this could be 1 cent or it could be more money if you want.
01:39:17 <Gregor> ESOTERIC TOPICS IN COMPUTING AND PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES. WE HAVE THEM. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D , http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Everyone who has not yet contributed to the libc.so fund: There is still time! As those who do not contribute will be required to enter the Evisceration Chamber within 48 hours of the end of the auction, those who have not yet donated are highly advised to
01:39:48 -!- Gregor has set topic: ESOTERIC TOPICS IN COMPUTING AND PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES. WE HAVE THEM. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D , http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Gregor's libc.so fund: As those who do not contribute will be required to enter the Evisceration Chamber within 48 hours of the end of the auction, those who have not yet donated are.
01:39:57 <oerjan> faillol, the new homeopathic drug that is all the rage
01:41:30 -!- Gregor has set topic: ESOTERIC TOPICS IN COMPUTING AND PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES. WE HAVE THEM. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D , http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Gregor's libc.so fund: Those who don't contribute will be forced into Evisceration Chamber. If you haven't donated, you are highly advised to consider it!.
01:43:14 <elliott> oerjan: more like HOMOSEXUAL
01:43:53 <zzo38> Is it the possible to pay someone for a card, send it to someone in any way (including morse code or telephone), and then they can withdraw it on the other side in the same way?
01:45:12 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
01:45:48 <zzo38> (Adding to my question) That is, without any accounts needed for anything?
01:46:30 <oerjan> "international money order" rings a bell
01:46:56 <elliott> zzo38: Is this how you plan to pay Gregor?
01:47:55 <zzo38> elliott: I just mean in general. I might not pay Gregor.
01:48:04 <elliott> zzo38: But you will be eviscerated!
01:49:58 <zzo38> I don't believe that. If the libc.so service interests me I will make such a payment. But right now it doesn't.
01:50:40 <elliott> Gregor: Perhaps we should have a pre-emptive funeral for zzo38.
01:51:09 <zzo38> I need to funeral for if I am dead. The funeral will cost too much.
01:51:24 <zzo38> I do not want anyone to make funeral for when I am dead, please.
01:51:56 <elliott> zzo38: Our funerals cost nothing.
01:52:20 <Gregor> (They might involve evisceration)
01:53:23 <zzo38> I still want no funeral for me.
01:53:59 <elliott> zzo38: You have no choice.
01:54:04 <elliott> Evisceratory funerals are mandatory.
01:54:36 <Sgeo> Happiness is mandatory. So an evisceratory funeral must be happy!
01:54:47 <Sgeo> Celebrate the evisceration of zzo38!
01:55:49 <Gregor> Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity.
01:56:48 <zzo38> Too bad, I made sure the auction cannot end.
01:57:21 <zzo38> It is not permitted for you to know.
01:57:54 <zzo38> It does not matter if you demand, it is still not permitted.
01:59:08 <oerjan> Gregor: isn't it more like fluidity, really?
01:59:30 <Gregor> oerjan: It's a quote from some random esotericist that came in here :P
01:59:35 <Gregor> I'm trying to establish it as our creed.
02:00:13 <oerjan> elliott: you are not cleared for this information. please report for evisceration.
02:00:35 <Gregor> (And/or donation to the libc.so fund)
02:02:25 <elliott> Gregor: Relevant: I updated the main page.
02:02:41 -!- Gregor has set topic: ESOTERIC TOPICS IN COMPUTING AND PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES. WE HAVE THEM. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D , http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Gregor's libc.so fund: Those who don't contribute will be forced into the Evisceration Chamber. If you haven't donated, you are highly advised to consider it!.
02:02:55 <Gregor> elliott: YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
02:03:06 <elliott> Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. Have a nice day!
02:11:21 <zzo38> I have one idea for electronic payment which I do not know if anything like this implemented. You go to the bank and pay them any amount of cash (no bank account is needed), and then will give you a card containing a SSH public key. You can use this to issue three commands "inquiry", "split", or "convert"; or you can go to a different bank and give then the card and they will give you your money back (no accounts needed, no questions needed).
02:12:00 <elliott> Don't you mean a private key?
02:13:39 <zzo38> I might have made a mistake. But I think in public/private key cryptograpy, some schemes just have two keys, and either one can be used for access of the other.
02:13:59 <elliott> Usually private keys are a lot bigger.
02:15:18 <zzo38> Yes, a private key is probably what is needed. I think I made a mistake.
02:16:10 <zzo38> However, it does not necessarily have to be a public/private key system. Something else might also work if it is secure.
02:59:55 -!- jcp has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- variable has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- Vorpal has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- tswett has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- Deewiant has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- Ilari has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- azaq23 has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- ineiros has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- comex_ has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- olsner has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- wareya has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- Gregor has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- HackEgo has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- yorick has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- oerjan has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- fizzie has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- coppro has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- fungot has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- mycroftiv has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- zzo38 has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- augur has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- dbc has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- EgoBot has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- nooga has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- clog has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- nottwo has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- shachaf has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- Leonidas has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- aloril has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- rodgort has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:55 -!- Mannerisky has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:56 -!- quintopia has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:56 -!- mtve has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:56 -!- lambdabot has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:56 -!- SimonRC has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:56 -!- Sgeo has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:56 -!- cheater00 has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:56 -!- cal153 has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:56 -!- pingveno has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:56 -!- Lymia has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:56 -!- jix has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:56 -!- z^ck has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:56 -!- copumpkin has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:56 -!- myndzi has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:56 -!- Zuu has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:56 -!- elliott has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:56 -!- Slereah has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:56 -!- sebbu has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:56 -!- Zwaarddijk has quit (*.net *.split).
02:59:56 -!- yiyus has quit (*.net *.split).
03:07:17 -!- EgoBot has joined.
03:20:32 -!- ineiros has joined.
03:20:32 -!- z^ck has joined.
03:20:32 -!- jix has joined.
03:20:32 -!- Lymia has joined.
03:20:32 -!- pingveno has joined.
03:20:32 -!- cal153 has joined.
03:20:32 -!- Zuu has joined.
03:20:32 -!- mycroftiv has joined.
03:20:32 -!- fungot has joined.
03:20:32 -!- coppro has joined.
03:20:32 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
03:20:32 -!- fizzie has joined.
03:20:32 -!- myndzi has joined.
03:20:32 -!- copumpkin has joined.
03:20:32 -!- augur_ has joined.
03:20:32 -!- sftp has joined.
03:20:32 -!- shachaf has joined.
03:20:32 -!- Leonidas has joined.
03:20:32 -!- SimonRC has joined.
03:20:32 -!- lambdabot has joined.
03:20:32 -!- lifthrasiir has joined.
03:20:32 -!- nottwo has joined.
03:20:32 -!- mtve has joined.
03:20:32 -!- clog has joined.
03:20:32 -!- Mannerisky has joined.
03:20:32 -!- aloril has joined.
03:20:32 -!- rodgort has joined.
03:20:32 -!- quintopia has joined.
03:20:32 -!- cheater00 has joined.
03:20:32 -!- Sgeo has joined.
03:20:32 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
03:20:32 -!- wareya has joined.
03:20:32 -!- Gregor has joined.
03:20:32 -!- HackEgo has joined.
03:20:32 -!- yorick has joined.
03:20:32 -!- izydor has joined.
03:20:47 -!- nooga_ has joined.
03:20:47 -!- jcp has joined.
03:20:47 -!- variable has joined.
03:20:47 -!- Wamanuz5 has joined.
03:20:47 -!- Vorpal has joined.
03:20:47 -!- tswett has joined.
03:20:47 -!- Deewiant has joined.
03:20:47 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined.
03:20:47 -!- Ilari has joined.
03:20:50 -!- dbc has joined.
03:20:50 -!- comex_ has joined.
03:20:50 -!- olsner has joined.
03:20:53 -!- elliott has joined.
03:20:53 -!- oerjan has joined.
03:20:53 -!- Slereah has joined.
03:20:53 -!- sebbu has joined.
03:20:53 -!- Zwaarddijk has joined.
03:20:53 -!- yiyus has joined.
03:21:05 -!- elliott has changed nick to Guest86411.
03:21:26 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
03:22:01 -!- oerjan has joined.
03:22:28 -!- izydor has quit (Quit: Leaving).
03:23:09 <oerjan> so did everyone else get split from nearly everyone else?
03:25:06 <oerjan> oh there's a notice about a hub in EU missing
03:26:03 <oerjan> i guess that could do it
03:29:12 -!- Guest86411 has changed nick to elliott.
03:29:16 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
03:29:17 -!- elliott has joined.
03:29:37 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:37:37 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
03:47:36 <elliott> "C is a subset of C++" ;; wow, people actually say this.
03:48:32 <oerjan> C is a subset, that's good enough for me
03:48:55 <elliott> "the great John Dvorak" giving up reading this post now
03:49:19 <oerjan> at least the G isn't capitalized
04:02:23 <elliott> hey oerjan i have a nice game for you to play
04:02:23 <elliott> http://www.foddy.net/GIRP.html
04:08:53 <elliott> oerjan how well did you do ;D
04:24:15 -!- asiekierka has joined.
04:27:56 * oerjan was taking a walk, actually
04:31:00 <oerjan> in our lovely march spring snow
04:39:01 <oerjan> ok i managed to activate the windows slow keys dialog, i take this as my clue to give up
04:54:30 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
04:56:06 -!- lament has joined.
05:21:31 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
06:08:56 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
07:01:33 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
07:05:08 -!- copumpkin has joined.
07:16:46 -!- cheater- has joined.
07:17:46 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
07:21:35 -!- elliott has joined.
07:23:44 <elliott> 04:32:04: <oerjan> wtf is this shit
07:23:45 <elliott> 04:39:01: <oerjan> ok i managed to activate the windows slow keys dialog, i take this as my clue to give up
07:28:43 <elliott> oerjan: i presume you've tried the classic QWOP then
07:29:20 <oerjan> i cannot recall. i am not much of a player of games, other than puzzle games
07:29:33 <elliott> http://www.foddy.net/Athletics.html it's not a game, it's a torture program
07:30:22 <oerjan> fine, then i don't have to look at it
07:30:46 <elliott> who said the torture was optional
07:31:18 <elliott> hey it even has a wp article :D
07:32:30 <fizzie> In QWOP I did run (...well, "run") the hundred metres, but in GIRP I barely managed two metres.
07:34:28 <fizzie> Proof: http://zem.fi/~fis/runner.png http://zem.fi/~fis/runner2.png http://zem.fi/~fis/runner3.png http://zem.fi/~fis/runner4.png http://zem.fi/~fis/runner5.png
07:35:26 <elliott> fizzie: That's the Cheating Method.
07:35:43 <elliott> Observe correct method: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJeJtK7Q2kk
07:36:05 <elliott> I've got to 10 m in GIRRRRRP
07:38:11 <elliott> fizzie: With GIRP the trick is to press shift at clever times.
07:39:12 <oerjan> which incidentally is precisely how you activate slow keys in windows. approximately.
07:39:55 <elliott> maybe that's the norwegian name
07:40:01 <oerjan> possibly, i'm backtranslating here
07:40:39 <oerjan> except i think there are two different settings one might accidentally trigger this way
07:40:55 <oerjan> one by holding a key too long, the other by pushing it too many times
07:41:06 <oerjan> and i'm not quite sure which one i did
07:41:30 <elliott> well QWOP has no use of the shift key at all!
07:42:26 <oerjan> i'm really not very fond of games that depend on dexterity and timing. especially since i developed rsi-like symptoms.
07:44:21 <oerjan> actually, that + unpredictable feedback
07:49:26 -!- lament has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
07:52:21 <elliott> oerjan: you realise the game is not meant to be _enjoyable_ :D
07:52:54 <oerjan> curiously, i'm not very fond of games that are not enjoyable, either
07:53:32 <oerjan> well the ai is pretty good
07:53:50 <elliott> it only has one personality
07:58:01 <oerjan> the unbearable lightness of lead
07:58:28 <elliott> the chocolate of merchantability
07:58:40 <elliott> the pindrop of castrated bongos
07:58:56 <oerjan> i think you slipped out of the theme there
07:59:11 <elliott> your mom slipped out of the theme there.
07:59:37 <oerjan> you proportional fiend!
07:59:51 <elliott> oerjan: only in proportion!! HAHAHAHAHA
08:18:37 <elliott> oerjan: where is : the moon?
08:19:07 <oerjan> ...still insane, i take
08:19:46 <elliott> you would....... withhold the moon
08:23:21 <elliott> oerjan: the moon ruse was a...... DISTACTION
08:23:54 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA).
08:29:12 <Vorpal> elliott, I love df. I just updated it and now it has bee keeping as well. :D
08:29:59 <Vorpal> elliott, however bee keeping requires an industry of ceramics, for making honey pots
08:30:18 <Vorpal> elliott, that means a lot of attention to various types of glazing of the jugs in true df spirit!
08:30:40 <elliott> at last Vorpal finds a game as tedious as he is!
08:31:21 <Vorpal> elliott, of course the clay industry is also complex. I'm reading up on that atm
08:32:45 <Vorpal> elliott, quoting the release notes for the update that introduced this:
08:32:48 <Vorpal> "I didn't get very far into glazing, but you can ash glaze and tin glaze (with cassiterite). Earthenware jugs need to be glazed to hold liquids. Stoneware and porcelain jugs don't require glaze but can be glazed."
08:33:02 <Vorpal> that is already more detail than what most games would include
08:33:08 <elliott> shouldn't this be in -minecraft where it's off-topic
08:33:21 <Vorpal> arguably it is just as off topic here
08:34:19 <Vorpal> elliott, but seriously you have to admire the attention to detail put into df.
08:34:19 <elliott> 18:59:28: <ehird> GNU bash, version 2.05b.0(1)-release (powerpc-apple-darwin8.0)
08:34:19 <elliott> 18:59:28: <ehird> Copyright (C) 2002 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
08:34:19 <elliott> when the heck did i use this ...
08:34:35 <elliott> oh maybe that was 10.4's bash and it just said powerpc
08:34:40 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, wouldn't play it though :P
08:35:19 <Vorpal> elliott, sure the learning curve is not so much a curve as a non-derivable discontinuity in the graph but once you get past that, it is awesome
08:37:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm using the site finder atm to find a nice place to embark on a new world to test out this new bee keeping stuff
08:37:36 <elliott> shut up, trying to remember the name of that thing so i can respond
08:37:42 <Vorpal> elliott, of what thing?
08:37:57 <Vorpal> describe it or something
08:39:07 <Vorpal> could be math, could be programming.
08:39:17 <elliott> and it ends up looking all _|_
08:39:26 <Vorpal> not sure about spelling
08:39:31 <elliott> that is named after a person
08:40:10 <elliott> where a function just totally goes up for one instant
08:40:12 <elliott> 'cuz it doesn't even give a shit.
08:40:27 <Vorpal> elliott, like the plot of tan(x) does?
08:40:41 <elliott> used in some field of things.
08:40:54 <elliott> there was an abstruse goose comic that referenced it once! ill find that :D
08:41:16 <Vorpal> goose comic, never heard of that one
08:41:35 <Vorpal> oh the abstruse is part of the name heh
08:41:46 <elliott> it's like xkcd but worse but better
08:42:31 <Vorpal> elliott, the front page comic... Either they are several or there doesn't seem to be much connection between the topics in it.
08:42:44 <Vorpal> aha, got to the end. Well that explains it
08:47:16 <elliott> we could just wait for oerjan to tell us
08:47:21 <elliott> doubt oklopol would know, he's stupid
08:48:12 <Vorpal> is he? I didn't know that
08:49:00 <elliott> not waiting for him to come and act offended
08:50:49 <elliott> Vorpal: please, enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidarity this fine tuesday :)
08:52:21 <Vorpal> elliott, sounds interesting. What does it do?
08:52:32 <elliott> Vorpal: confines you to solid forms, one presumes
08:52:48 <elliott> or maybe the MATRIX is solid.
08:52:55 <elliott> and you're just confined in a nondescript manner.
08:53:00 <elliott> who knows? only its original utterer.
08:53:32 <Vorpal> elliott, weren't you the original utterer? Or did you quote someone?
08:53:54 <Vorpal> or perhaps paraphrase someone
08:53:57 <elliott> It's the new Esoteric Motto, provoked by me, uttered by some insane esoterica-seeker, and popularised by Gregor.
08:54:12 <elliott> It tells me that I should mock such people more often.
08:54:35 <Vorpal> so someone who came here and had no clue what the channel was about?
08:55:07 <elliott> Well, actually we did a stupid magick skit :P
08:55:11 <elliott> I DON'T THINK THEY WERE FOOLED
09:59:59 -!- FireFly has joined.
11:35:09 <Vorpal> argh the df wiki seems down
12:11:32 -!- asiekierka has joined.
12:23:21 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:32:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:32:43 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:45:10 -!- ais523_ has joined.
13:22:23 -!- nooga_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
13:31:54 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:33:03 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
13:33:57 -!- asiekierka has joined.
14:05:45 <augur> i think Pure might be very similar to my intentions for antigravity when i was seriously poking around with it
14:06:17 <augur> oh, no, Pure is not, ok.
14:09:31 <Gregor> augur: Is this you wanting to donate to the libc.so fund? :P
14:09:52 <augur> this is me wanting to talk about generative music
14:10:04 <augur> i mean, i'll donate well wishings to the fund
14:11:19 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
14:19:10 <Gregor> augur: Well now I don't know if I want to *huff*
14:21:08 <Gregor> I would talk about generative music ...
14:21:18 <Gregor> But since you'll just be forced into the Evisceration Chamber anyway, what difference does it make?
14:21:39 <augur> do you know of any good papers on the topic?
14:34:15 -!- sftp has joined.
14:35:11 -!- copumpkin has joined.
14:39:07 <Gregor> I've never read any paper on the subject, because I've never heard generated music that isn't abysmally bad.
14:39:46 <augur> im just looking for frameworks, really
14:41:05 <Gregor> Well, then enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity.
14:41:34 <augur> i like being solid
14:41:38 <augur> i dont want to be goo
14:42:02 <Gregor> elliott: These poor, poor mundanes locked in their matrices.
14:42:41 <Gregor> BTW my log format is prettier than it was before :)
14:42:57 -!- azaq23 has joined.
14:44:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:57:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:01:45 <Gregor> http://codu.org/logs/log.html?c=_esoteric&d=2011-03-29#073046elliott <-- check out this magic!
15:02:51 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, I have discovered the solution to all your Minecraft-related navigational plights!
15:03:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, do you have, like, a fetish for huge columns of blank space?
15:03:52 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Do you have, like, a fetish for having such a ridiculously long name that I have to overallocate?
15:04:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to PH______________.
15:04:42 <Gregor> So you just have a fetish for being a complaining bitch.
15:05:24 <ais523_> the blank space sort-of annoyed me as well, although it's the fault of people with long nicks rather than of the page
15:05:27 <Gregor> Now quit thine bitching :P
15:05:38 <ais523_> juiced dealt with the issue by clipping long names and padding short ones
15:05:48 <Gregor> Why do people always think I'm /upset/ when I act like a jerk? I'm just a jerk.
15:08:30 <Gregor> Anyway you're supposed to be amazed by my awesome highlighting and permalinking by-line.
15:09:11 <ais523_> is the highlighting JS-based?
15:09:18 <Gregor> The whole page is JS-based.
15:09:22 <Gregor> The formatting is JS-based.
15:09:41 <ais523_> hmm, I normally have JS off
15:09:58 <Gregor> <noscript>Sorry, but pretty-printed logs and stalker mode require JavaScript. Please use the text logs.</noscript>
15:10:03 <ais523_> but I don't really mind if it still degrades gracefully anyway
15:10:20 <ais523_> stalker mode needing JS makes sense
15:10:28 -!- augur has changed nick to hamiltonian.
15:10:30 <Gregor> I suppose I could make it degrade "gracefully" by forwarding you to the text version :P
15:10:31 -!- hamiltonian has changed nick to augur.
15:12:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:25:11 -!- augur has joined.
15:34:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:34:48 <Gregor> There, if you don't have JS then it degrades to text. All those who don't have JS: Welcome to 2011, we are pleased to see that your long-term cryogenic sleep was successful. Please enjoy your stay.
15:35:39 -!- augur has joined.
15:40:51 -!- lament has joined.
15:42:20 <PH______________> Gregor, I once had to wrangle with someone who said that not having *CSS* degrade gracefully was EVIL.
15:42:30 -!- PH______________ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
15:42:42 <Gregor> Ironically, this probably does degrade gracefully if you have JS but no CSS :P
15:44:08 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: what if you want to quickly look something up in w3m while programming?
15:44:12 <ais523_> (I actually do that sometimes)
15:44:48 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523_, it wasn't even that graceless. You just got some random letters and numbers in place of some random characters.
15:59:07 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:01:58 -!- cheater99 has joined.
16:02:26 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
16:02:31 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:03:07 <Vorpal> <Gregor> There, if you don't have JS then it degrades to text. All those who don't have JS: Welcome to 2011, we are pleased to see that your long-term cryogenic sleep was successful. Please enjoy your stay. <-- the issue with js is that a lot of sites use it in a way that doubles their loading time, even if they don't use js for the actual loading (in other words, those that still work and don't become
16:03:26 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
16:04:41 <Vorpal> at least that is my experience using firefox. Of course some of that can probably be blamed on firefox too, but I have noticed the same pattern even in browsers I use less often.
16:06:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:07:46 -!- augur has joined.
16:08:40 <Gregor> There, it even works in w3m now.
16:08:44 <Gregor> The problem with disabling JS is that this is the year 2011.
16:08:52 <Gregor> The web is no longer just a text medium, it is a platform.
16:09:00 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.09: 64k to Taiwan, 16k to Vietnam, 2x128k+20x64k+1k to China, 256 to Australia, 256 to India, 256 to Sigapore, 1k to Samoa.
16:09:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:13:04 <Ilari> Estimate for depletion stays at Friday April 15th.
16:14:05 <Ilari> 2.118 blocks this calender month.
16:16:34 <Ilari> Even half that would be historically quite rare (IIRC, >1 block per month has been exeeded 4 times before this month, 2 being this year)
16:18:00 <Ilari> Logaritmic space: /7.588.
16:21:28 <Ilari> Last 30 days: 2.660 blocks. Wow, just wow.
16:24:05 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
16:29:44 -!- azaq231 has joined.
16:30:33 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:40:49 <Vorpal> <Gregor> There, it even works in w3m now. <-- what about lynx?
16:58:14 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host).
16:58:15 -!- Zuu has joined.
16:59:49 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
17:00:51 -!- cal153 has joined.
17:01:29 -!- FireFly has joined.
17:01:32 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:07:02 <FireFly> swatting is unnecessary, I promise
17:07:38 <FireFly> Because your line lacks a question mark
17:08:51 * oerjan swats FireFly for breaking the chain -----###
17:09:13 <sebbu> oerjan, i'm in a lot of places
17:09:56 <oerjan> sebbu: um but surely only on one freenode server? i was referring to the weird netsplit that was just happening then
17:10:42 <oerjan> while hopping from server to server, it looked like every server was split from every other.
17:11:03 <oerjan> (this included the logbots)
17:11:23 <sebbu> yes, only one freenode server
17:12:04 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: quite possibly.
17:12:16 <sebbu> i'm connected to that server since almost 2 day
17:12:26 <sebbu> (since my last disconnection)
17:13:04 <oerjan> sebbu: there was a global notice afterwards that a big hub in the EU had disappeared.
17:14:45 <sebbu> yeah, i see just pratchett & anthony
17:17:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm assuming something's rotten in the state of Freenode?
17:29:57 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it may even have been in the vicinity of denmark
17:35:56 <oerjan> <elliott> we could just wait for oerjan to tell us
17:36:03 <oerjan> jump discontinuity perhaps?
17:36:57 -!- cpressey has joined.
17:37:36 <oerjan> 08:39:29: <elliott> it has some fancy name
17:37:36 <oerjan> 08:39:31: <elliott> that is named after a person
17:38:09 -!- [DaTa] has joined.
17:38:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:39:40 <oerjan> oh hm that's not actually a "real" function. there's a plain delta function which is, though.
17:40:52 <[DaTa]> Testing mobile irc app
17:41:34 <[DaTa]> Didn't want to interrupt sorry
17:41:54 <oerjan> well no one but me were talking at the moment anyway
17:43:22 -!- [DaTa] has left.
17:48:33 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> oh hm that's not actually a "real" function. there's a plain delta function which is, though. ← define "real"?
17:53:51 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_delta_function explains it
17:53:51 <lambdabot> cpressey: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
17:54:17 <oerjan> "real" = the usual set of pairs kind
17:54:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I like the way we use lambdabot as an impromptu MemoServ.
17:55:12 <oerjan> no. the dirac delta is supposed to be zero everywhere except at zero, and still have integral one. this is impossible for a real function.
17:56:59 <yorick> Phantom_Hoover: obviously.
17:57:28 <oerjan> also, yes the cantor set is uncountable, same cardinality as the real numbers or the interval [0,1].
17:57:39 <yorick> Phantom_Hoover: in the hollands
17:57:53 <yorick> Phantom_Hoover: no NOT DENMARK
17:58:34 <oerjan> in a sense the only difference is that in the cantor set you don't identify .01111.... with .10000.... etc. but the number of such cases _are_ countable and therefore don't affect the total cardinality.
17:59:08 <Phantom_Hoover> What she does is closest, perhaps, to mathematics, but only in the loosest sense.
17:59:21 <oerjan> (when thinking of the cantor set in binary. i guess in the usual "remove center" version s/1/2/ and use trinary.)
17:59:44 <cpressey> I think I'm insulted on behalf of mathematics.
18:00:03 <cpressey> What she does is more akin to accounting.
18:00:49 <cpressey> Well, except accounting has a purpose.
18:00:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Which, unlike everything else zzo does, actually sounds interesting.
18:01:01 <cpressey> Oh man. I was not aware of this
18:01:14 * cpressey tries to imagine zzo38's accounting methods
18:01:22 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> I like the way we use lambdabot as an impromptu MemoServ. <-- recently when someone tried to send me a MemoServ memo i nearly missed it because its unobtrusive notice got lost in the server status messages.
18:05:07 <cpressey> So, I have this vague recollection that I'm wondering if it's an hallucination on my part. Wasn't there once a programming language called "Fish", or "Fish Programming Language", which had an article somewhere (on Wikipedia I think) -- it involved a big picture of a fish, and each scale on the fish had a number(?) and colour(?) and you programmed it by changing these?
18:05:29 <oerjan> not to be confused with deadfish, i assume
18:06:10 <cpressey> and definitely not http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FISh_%28programming_language%29
18:07:29 <cpressey> http://www.chemistrydaily.com/chemistry/FiPL
18:08:21 <cpressey> and not on esolangs.org anywhere that i can see
18:08:28 <cpressey> and official site is down (of course)
18:08:28 <fizzie> That sounds familiar, with the colored scales thing.
18:08:59 <oerjan> this all sounds somewhat fishy
18:09:59 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:10:17 <fizzie> "Fish" is a not very greppable term.
18:10:25 <fizzie> [2007-01-14 01:28:51] < oerjan> A very fishy language.
18:10:34 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined.
18:10:43 <fizzie> (That was re: homespring.)
18:11:57 <cpressey> It's not exactly an uncommon theme here, is it?
18:12:08 <fizzie> No, we're all quite fishy.
18:12:27 <fizzie> Looking for both fish and scale just gives me fungot "this evening's debate is certainly the case for amendments nos 3 and 4, so that we can all see the work we do with small-scale fishermen."
18:12:27 <fungot> fizzie: i don't do anything to cause trouble with it. i might even be on fnord
18:13:55 <cpressey> Well, FiPL was definitely what I was thinking of; just surprised it never got an article on esolangs.org
18:15:15 <Gregor> OK, now EVERY feature degrades gracefully.
18:15:19 <Gregor> No more complaining, nonJSers.
18:15:21 <Gregor> NO MORE COMPLAINING EVER.
18:15:50 -!- cpressey has changed nick to nonJSer.
18:16:07 <Gregor> And yes, it even works in lynx.
18:16:19 <fizzie> Oh, the *day* is the HTML link.
18:16:22 <Gregor> Although in lynx it provides literally zero benefit over just using the text :P
18:16:24 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:16:59 -!- nonJSer has changed nick to AnMaster.
18:17:11 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined.
18:17:16 <Gregor> Oh dear, now you're really causing problems.
18:17:24 <Gregor> Vorpal: Have a fit plz
18:17:29 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: leaving).
18:20:34 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
18:23:20 <fizzie> What does the scripting do, exactly? It seems to be possible to highlight a particular line, but that's all I've found.
18:23:52 <Gregor> fizzie: The script was originally generating the entire log's HTML, dynamically.
18:23:59 <Gregor> fizzie: Then people went all "bleh I'm a caveman I don't have JS"
18:24:33 <Gregor> fizzie: So now the only client-side feature is the highlighting; but that's associated with the hash in the URL (e.g. #001100Gregor), so you can give somebody else that URL and have the same line highlighted.
18:24:46 <Gregor> As I add searching and such, things will get more sophisticated.
18:25:35 <Gregor> (Stalker mode still generates the HTML dynamically)
18:25:45 -!- fizzie has left ("Leaving").
18:25:52 -!- fizzie has joined.
18:31:20 -!- augur has joined.
18:45:19 -!- nelix has joined.
18:54:40 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:54:40 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
18:54:40 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:55:43 <Gregor> Considering that I put no effort whatsoever into making the HTML logs work on mobile browsers, it works surprisingly well.
18:57:15 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:15:58 <olsner> I'd say that for the last 5 years or so, mobile browsing has been all about making desktop sites work well
19:20:58 <Gregor> Reasons why the USA seems so bad in media: 1) Our huge international influence means everything we do is global press. 2) We're freaking huge; not everything that happens anywhere in the US is even borderline representative of the entire country, and yet people don't say "France must suck!" when they hear about something terrible happening in Croatia. 3) We have some kind of problem with the notion of just laughing at people who are too stupid to live. Instead
19:20:58 <Gregor> they form niches and then become TV pundits.
19:21:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, no, I mean in terms of actual quality of life.
19:21:55 <Gregor> You either have fucking gold-lined streets or (2) applies.
19:23:16 <oerjan> thar's gold in them welsh hills
19:23:48 <oerjan> well duh that's how they extract it
19:24:06 <oerjan> the sheep eat the gold-infused grass in the hills
19:24:16 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well i didn't want to assume you weren't
19:24:26 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: GLOGBOT KNOWS THE TRUTH NOW FOREVER
19:25:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I've stated multiple times before that I'm Scottish, I just get a kick out of fooling Vorpal.
19:25:48 <Phantom_Hoover> (And that's NBSPed to avoid pings; please don't start letting him know.)
19:26:45 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:26:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Inserted between the V and the o to throw off any ping highlighting.
19:26:54 <Gregor> !glogbot_expunge_regex /:Phantom_Hoover!.*PRIVMSG #esoteric :.*scot/i
19:27:04 <oerjan> my client doesn't even notice it's there...
19:27:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, ...you can make glogbot ignore arbitrary things?
19:27:21 <Gregor> oerjan: Then it's a good client that understands Unicode :P
19:27:34 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Pfff, nonsense.
19:27:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I actually *can* see it because in a fit of madness I set every font I could to Libertine, and it kerns the hell out of everything,
19:28:27 <Gregor> Heywait, don't you mean zero-width space?
19:28:35 <Gregor> Non-breaking space is still the width of a space :P
19:28:56 <Phantom_Hoover> YES ALL RIGHT GREGOR THANK YOU FOR BRINGING YOUR "FACTS" TO THE DISCUSSION
19:29:23 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: ENJOY BEING LOCKED IN YOUR MATRIX OF SOLIDITY.
19:30:12 <oerjan> "Scotland does have the dubious distinction of eating even less healthily than America."
19:30:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:30:24 <oerjan> (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BonnieScotland)
19:30:26 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: it's a shame you're not welsh - welsh gets bonus points for appearing in a swedish word for gibberish, and I kind of like the welsh english accent
19:31:32 <Gregor> Let me guess, that literally means "The Language of the Welsh", but its connotation is "gibberish"
19:31:34 <oklopol> "<Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, I have discovered the solution to all your Minecraft-related navigational plights!" <<< is what
19:32:22 <olsner> oerjan: rotvälska, which might mean rootwelsh
19:32:36 <oerjan> i don't know if it has anything to do with welsh, really
19:32:49 <olsner> nah, not really, they just both come from the same word somewhere earlier on that means foreign
19:33:30 <oerjan> kauderwelsch appears to be german
19:34:11 <oerjan> "A mixture of West Germanic and North Germanic languages spoken on the border between Germany and Denmark."
19:36:02 <oklopol> "<fizzie> In QWOP I did run (...well, "run") the hundred metres, but in GIRP I barely managed two metres." <<< i ran the 100m without cheating right?
19:36:13 <fizzie> oklopol: Yes, I think you did.
19:36:16 <fizzie> oklopol: But that's you.
19:36:23 <Gregor> So what's GIRP? Second time I've seen it mentioned.
19:36:35 <oklopol> and how is that not enjoyable
19:36:40 <Deewiant> http://www.foddy.net/GIRP.html
19:36:42 <fizzie> It's like QWOP except you climb up.
19:36:57 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: it's not that much like QWOP either.)
19:37:27 <oklopol> i don't think it's safe to open that link
19:39:01 <fizzie> "That's why GIRP's score system changes over time: it'll show your distance when you start playing, but if you reach the top of the cliff (which will definitely take more than a few goes), it'll record how fast you can scamper up next time you play. Foddy says he can reach the peak in about 20 minutes."
19:39:05 <fizzie> Oh, so it has a goal too.
19:40:01 <fizzie> He's just the game creator; I'm sure you can improve on that.
19:40:05 <oklopol> but maybe i'll just watch house for now
19:41:46 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklopol> "<Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, I have discovered the solution to all your Minecraft-related navigational plights!" <<< is what
19:41:48 -!- augur has joined.
19:42:02 <Phantom_Hoover> http://s-ak.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/web04/2011/2/24/9/enhanced-buzz-17712-1298559561-22.jpg
19:44:05 <oklopol> well yeah that certainly works
19:52:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm still entertained when I remember the time you tried to find some sand for the Cube and ended up walking to Deewiant's from the north.
19:58:03 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:58:28 <oklopol> but i found the sand! admittedly that just meant i randomly bumped into a beach.
19:59:17 <Sgeo> <elliott> "C is a subset of C++" ;; wow, people actually say this.
19:59:38 <Sgeo> I know it's incorrect, but is it just things like whether void* gets automatically cast into other types of pointers, or is there more?
20:00:18 <Sgeo> (And that thingy that the polygot linked to by zzo38 exploited, with sizeof(char) being different)
20:08:31 <fizzie> There's the fact that C++ keywords (class, friend) are ordinary identifiers in C.
20:09:03 <fizzie> And some implicit-declaration things where you can leave prototypes out, but that's more of a bad idea.
20:09:08 <Deewiant> http://david.tribble.com/text/cdiffs.htm
20:12:27 <fizzie> One thing that I don't see in Deewiant's link is that C++ forbids calling main() recursively (rationale: "the main function may require special actions"), while in C that's of course all right.
20:13:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:13:40 <oklopol> girp has absolutely nothing to do with qwop
20:13:41 <fizzie> The C++98 spec has an informative "Annex C: compatibility" which lists changes too.
20:13:55 <fizzie> oklopol: They're made by the same guy.
20:14:02 <oklopol> and have nothing in common
20:14:11 <fizzie> No, they have the author in common.
20:14:31 <fizzie> Also both are played by pressing keys on the keyboard.
20:14:33 <oklopol> right, and in both, there are pixels on the screen
20:14:47 <fizzie> The names are both 4 characters long.
20:15:31 <oklopol> anyone happen to know how to disable the keyboard shortcut for sticky keys
20:15:47 <fizzie> It used to be there in the "accessibility properties" thingamajick.
20:15:52 <oklopol> also while you're at it, anyone know how to remove "insert" completely
20:19:16 <oklopol> what the fuck is the point of sticky keys anyway, is it for people who love closing processes, and only have one finger?
20:20:29 <fizzie> Perhaps people who have only one finger and just want to use keyboard shortcuts in general.
20:21:09 <oklopol> oh hmm true. and here i thought it has very little use cases.
20:22:00 <fizzie> It's an a11y thing anyway, they're sort-of meant for people with... difficulties. Or whatever the PC expression is. ("Accessively challenged"?)
20:22:16 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, it doesn't have enough use cases to justify automatically binding it to the shift key.
20:22:50 <fizzie> Yes, their way to make those features more discoverable is not perhaps the best.
20:23:02 <fizzie> But doesn't the first-time prompt for it ask if you want to permanently disable it or not?
20:23:12 <oklopol> or if it does, i missed it
20:23:26 <oklopol> it always prompts whether i want to enable sticky keys
20:23:38 <fizzie> Oh, that's a bit of a silly.
20:24:08 <fizzie> The same place where you'd normally enable it (control panel/something/something) at least used to have the checkboxes that disable the automatical prompting.
20:24:32 <oklopol> yeah i managed to disable it
20:24:46 <oklopol> only took 5 minutes what with explorer crashing and all that
20:25:22 <oklopol> i should switch to another os, but since i'm prolly never going to do it maybe i should just stop using computers
20:27:05 <oklopol> i'm actually not entirely sure
20:27:44 <oklopol> so yeah maybe i'll need some sort of irc machine
20:28:42 -!- nelix has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:33:15 <fizzie> I used to be able to produce a sound that caused my modem to start a handshake (normally the calling side just waits), but I doubt anyone can actually do the whistling thing, at least with anything even remotely modern modem standards. (To start the handshake you just need a close-enough match for a 2100 Hz single-frequency tone, and at least my modem wasn't very picky about it.)
20:37:40 <Phantom_Hoover> So, in other news, Renault have become The Most Annoying Advertisers.
20:39:26 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokoko
20:39:47 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: You somehow opened the gates of oko.
20:40:03 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
20:40:12 <oklopol> good point i have no idea what happened there
20:40:13 <fizzie> I'm sure it is a neurological affectation of some sort.
20:41:15 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: or the oklopolypse
20:46:11 <fizzie> An oklopolyp is some sort of a marine thing.
20:46:32 <fizzie> "Did you mean: colon polyp"
20:46:40 <fizzie> No, Google, I did not mean that.
20:48:58 -!- cpressey has joined.
20:49:21 <olsner> the plural of oklopol should be oklopodes
20:50:12 <olsner> or oklopals - as in "Oklopol and his Friendly Oklopals"
20:53:15 <oklopol> there are videos of me and others okoing for hours
20:53:38 <oklopol> but i don't like publishing picture of myself
20:55:04 <fizzie> Oklobaba. (Cf. Napababa.)
20:55:23 <olsner> if pictures of the oklo appear we'll use them to cut together a nature documentary about the shy oklopodes and their colorful and loud mating displays
20:55:31 <olsner> possibly narrated by attenborough
20:56:00 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, "The oklopol creates a nest from a bathtub, and fills it with nutritious Cola."
20:57:17 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
20:58:26 <Phantom_Hoover> "If its potential mate prefers Sprite, however, all his work will have gone to waste."
21:10:45 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:19:29 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
21:22:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Negative: unwanted life-changing spiritual experiences.
21:27:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't want this life-changing spiritual experience! I was quite happy being unenlightened!
21:31:47 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:37:20 <oerjan> you had a life-changing spiritual experience, and are now completely certain that cthulhu loves you. with a little bearnaise sauce.
21:40:22 <Gregor> http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1929 Bahaha
21:41:48 -!- cheater99 has joined.
21:48:46 -!- cheater99 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:53:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:58:04 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:15:53 <cpressey> So... a language whose programs form a group (like Burro) but the group is finitely generated (unlike Burro). I almost have one...
22:17:21 <cpressey> By all rights it should be named "Mulo" but I don't think I like that name.
22:20:02 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:23:08 -!- elliott has joined.
22:23:09 <elliott> 20:53:15: <oklopol> there are videos of me and others okoing for hours
22:23:09 <elliott> 20:53:38: <oklopol> but i don't like publishing picture of myself
22:23:12 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
22:23:35 <oklopol> well i don't like killing people either but i'm still not a virgin
22:23:41 -!- elliott has joined.
22:23:45 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
22:24:20 -!- augur has joined.
22:26:20 <oerjan> cpressey: sounds like it should be doable if the commands just fail to commutate enough
22:26:48 <oklopol> burro isn't finitely generated?
22:27:15 <oerjan> it has some nested construct, doesn't it
22:27:58 <oklopol> well i don't remember at all, i just remember it was not a group
22:28:22 <oklopol> i'm a pessimistic bastard ain't i
22:29:06 <oerjan> you want to do something with lots of commutators. i think. >:)
22:30:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:30:08 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:31:38 <oerjan> i am reminded of that underload variant which removes () and instead uses a command that adds a single-character list containing the next one
22:31:58 <oerjan> that's a finitely generated monoid, at least
22:32:51 -!- augur has joined.
22:35:27 <oklopol> well a finitely generated monoid is a pair containing a set S and a function * from S^2 to S such that (a*b)*c = a*(b*c) for all a, b, c in S and there is some 1 in S such that 1*a = a*1 = a for all a in S and also there exists a finite subset X of S such that {1} union X union X^2 union ... union X^n is S for some n
22:35:52 <cpressey> yes, Burro, being based vaguely on brainfuck, has nested conditional blocks, so not finitely generated
22:37:11 <cpressey> it's totally a group now though, since 2010
22:37:41 <oklopol> maybe i'll check if i agree omorrow
22:40:44 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:41:07 -!- augur has joined.
22:41:08 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:43:15 <cpressey> oerjan: I don't know about commutators -- I mean I've vaguely know what the concept is, I don't know how to work with them and I'm not approaching the design of the thing by saying to myself "ok so do I have enough commands that fail to commute yet". Maybe after I've got it together I'll try looking at it that way.
22:43:57 <cpressey> What I've got right now is basically a reversible tag system.
22:44:50 <cpressey> The inverse of matching the front of the queue and appending to the back, is (sort of) matching the back of the queue and appending to the front.
22:46:04 <cpressey> meanwhile -- I rock at javascript
22:46:56 <cpressey> wait there was no verb in that action
22:47:28 * oerjan accidentally cpressey's air guitar
22:47:39 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:54:55 -!- TLUL has joined.
23:05:06 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:10:29 -!- Zuu has joined.
23:21:51 -!- elliott has joined.
23:21:57 <elliott> THE SQL OVERLORDS ARE COMING
23:21:58 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
23:22:33 <oerjan> oh dear'; drop table overlords; -- MWAHAHAHA
23:28:20 <Sgeo> Simon's hot... er, I got shot
23:31:28 <Sgeo> erm, as in, that's a quote
23:31:52 <oerjan> SimonRC: YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO
23:33:13 <oerjan> i suppose the chances of him responding are rather low, but that's an impressive uptime
23:33:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:33:58 <Sgeo> What's his uptime? I don't see any such thing in whois
23:34:56 -!- augur has joined.
23:35:30 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:03:06 <oerjan> idle : 15 days 17 hours 39 mins 3 secs
00:03:22 <oerjan> and you need /whois SimonRC SimonRC to get it
00:07:55 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/circlejerk/comments/ge1je/pick_a_random_number_between_1_and_1000_double_it/ XD
00:11:04 -!- aloril_ has joined.
00:13:14 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:14:24 -!- cal153 has quit.
00:29:06 -!- azaq231 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
00:40:06 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
00:41:36 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:42:25 -!- wareya has joined.
01:03:43 -!- copumpkin has joined.
01:18:25 -!- catseye has joined.
01:34:07 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:34:36 -!- sebbu has joined.
01:34:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
01:34:37 -!- sebbu has joined.
01:35:38 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:52:37 <oerjan> catseye: you're not cpressey are you?
01:52:38 -!- TLUL has quit (Quit: *disappears in a puff of orange smoke*).
01:53:42 * oerjan should learn to /whois first
01:56:00 <oerjan> would have been a nice twist if you were some kind of Bast worshipper...
01:59:32 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastet
02:02:12 <oerjan> Gregor: can you confirm or deny whether you and cpressey are secretly Bastet worshippers inventing the concept of esolangs to draw nerds into your esoteric sect?
02:02:43 <Gregor> oerjan: Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity.
02:03:50 <oerjan> and now that you have finally got rid of atheist elliott, your scheme is coming near to fruition...
02:04:18 <Sgeo> I'm still out of the loop on why elliott left
02:07:06 -!- cal153 has joined.
02:13:48 <catseye> he was here today, in some sense of "here". he said things here.
02:13:57 -!- augur has joined.
02:15:34 <catseye> I have simply dismissed the whole affair as too complicated for my puny brain to possibly understand.
02:26:24 -!- StoopidBot has joined.
02:26:35 -!- StoopidBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:29:08 -!- StoopidBot has joined.
02:31:30 -!- StoopidBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:36:23 <Gregor> I didn't mean to make it join things X-D
02:41:48 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:54:45 -!- olsner has joined.
03:02:14 -!- lament has joined.
03:23:45 -!- elliott has joined.
03:24:05 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
03:28:50 <oerjan> well stop beating it on the table then
03:30:51 <catseye> I think it's because I'm feeding it JACK and Fluidsynth and Rosegarden again
03:31:32 <catseye> It was because I think I realized what elliott "saying" things in here is
03:31:59 <catseye> But the JACK etc isn't helping
03:32:46 <catseye> I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to use JACK
03:32:58 <oerjan> well i don't know jack shit
03:40:43 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
03:53:35 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
03:57:37 <catseye> arrrrrrgh computers are stupid music is stupid i hate everything arrrrrrrrgh
03:59:00 <oerjan> ...i recognize those symptoms...
03:59:41 <oerjan> cure: relax and do something else, or nothing at all.
04:00:01 <oerjan> (note: cure is alas, temporary)
04:13:37 -!- elliott has joined.
04:13:40 <elliott> 03:31:32: <catseye> It was because I think I realized what elliott "saying" things in here is
04:13:47 <elliott> catseye: YOUR SUSPICIONS ARE IRRELEVANT, MORTAL
04:14:01 <elliott> oerjan: btw no, cure is to reinvent computing
04:15:43 <oerjan> ...the symptoms have nothing to do with computing per se. they have to do with doing something when you're really tired and should relax.
04:15:55 <elliott> no they have to do with everything sucking
04:16:03 <elliott> the solution is to stop them sucking by replacing them
04:16:38 <Sgeo> So, become zzo38
04:16:44 <oerjan> i guess our worldviews clash at this point.
04:17:20 <elliott> oerjan: ITYM "oh, right, I'm wrong I guess"
04:17:22 <elliott> "I'll get to work on @ right away"
04:17:55 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
04:18:05 <elliott> catseye: you see the people i have to deal with.
04:31:43 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
04:37:41 <Gregor> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31917308&l=75ffb3329d&id=1055580469
04:39:11 -!- asiekierka has joined.
04:48:14 <catseye> and tried to mop the floor. but only got so far with that.
04:49:16 <catseye> somehow "arrrrrgh mops are stupid water is stupid i hate everything arrrrrrgh" just doesn't ring the same.
04:49:36 <catseye> it comes out more like "it's late. i can finish this tomorrow"
04:52:57 <oklopol> i feel that way about computers
04:55:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
05:01:03 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: locking myself back into my matrix of solidity. and/or sleeping).
05:13:23 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
05:17:01 -!- sftp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:50:06 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
05:52:07 -!- elliott has joined.
05:52:14 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
06:03:17 -!- cheater99 has joined.
06:14:35 -!- Lymia has joined.
06:14:35 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host).
06:14:35 -!- Lymia has joined.
06:19:16 <Slereah> http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=298
06:19:51 -!- ch2 has joined.
06:21:08 -!- elliott has joined.
06:21:12 <elliott> THE REVOLUTION IS MADE OF PLASTIC BOTTLES
06:21:21 -!- elliott has left ("hobo juice!!!").
06:27:25 -!- elliott has joined.
06:27:30 <elliott> provide hobo juice thru slot --->
06:27:46 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
06:44:48 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
06:52:09 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
06:52:13 -!- fizzie has joined.
07:01:57 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
07:03:16 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
07:05:40 <zzo38> Is there USB mode that is directly the UNIX block and stream files?
07:05:57 -!- cal153 has joined.
07:10:19 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
07:12:12 -!- cal153 has joined.
07:20:24 -!- elliott has joined.
07:20:29 <elliott> Does anyone know who invented the pipe/fork/exec model?
07:20:34 <elliott> I would like to hunt them down and kill them.
07:39:53 -!- FireFly has joined.
07:44:59 -!- ch2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:45:06 -!- ch2 has joined.
07:45:59 <zzo38> ch2: What about S Q L?
07:46:22 <elliott> ch2 is a harmless bot, it don't know what it sayin.
07:46:26 -!- ch2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:46:35 -!- ch2 has joined.
07:51:03 -!- ch2 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
07:51:31 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
07:56:08 -!- ch2 has joined.
07:56:16 -!- elliott has joined.
07:56:31 -!- ch2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:56:38 -!- ch2 has joined.
07:59:04 -!- ch2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
08:00:09 <elliott> oh dear, a random crash :/
08:00:18 <elliott> probably it didn't like all my pings
08:04:28 -!- cheater99 has joined.
08:27:31 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: The Tao that can be spoken of is not the Tao.).
08:47:19 -!- cheater00 has joined.
08:48:48 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
09:41:00 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
09:41:33 -!- variable has joined.
09:55:00 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
09:55:26 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined.
10:00:15 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
10:05:29 -!- Ilari_ has joined.
10:08:34 -!- Ilari_ has quit (Client Quit).
10:08:52 -!- Ilari_ has joined.
10:13:40 -!- Ilari_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
10:14:35 -!- Ilari_ has joined.
10:15:35 -!- Ilari_ has quit (Client Quit).
10:25:18 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
10:44:22 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
10:47:10 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined.
11:30:02 -!- esowiki has joined.
11:30:02 -!- glogbot has joined.
11:31:52 -!- EgoBot has joined.
11:34:12 -!- oklopol has joined.
11:35:28 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
11:36:06 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
11:36:06 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
11:36:06 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
11:36:24 -!- jix has joined.
11:38:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
11:38:08 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
11:56:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:23:29 -!- cheater99 has joined.
12:55:05 -!- augur has joined.
13:02:47 -!- sftp has joined.
13:04:21 -!- cheater00 has joined.
13:06:18 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
13:10:50 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
13:12:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:16:24 -!- augur has joined.
13:36:47 -!- copumpkin has joined.
14:14:03 -!- pumpkin has joined.
14:14:50 -!- cheater has joined.
14:15:43 <cheater> i was at google yesterday and there was this russian dude trying to recruit me. he said i can come do the interview using any programming language, even brainfuck.
14:16:10 <cheater> i should like, use befunge
14:16:38 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
14:31:36 <cheater> this job is what i started my career for
14:33:34 <cheater> my only coworker is a hot, prominent, supermodel. the office is right in the center of the city in the historical area, and is huge. the desk i am sitting at is bound with exotic leather.
14:34:02 <Gregor> "Bound" as in "with bindings" as in "I'm strapped into it and raped every day"?
14:34:26 <cheater> no as in the surface of it used to be a crocodile
14:34:51 <cheater> oh, and wacom tablets actually make very good monitors for mac pro's it would seem
14:34:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
14:35:43 <cheater> ok quickly get some bandaid and wrap it tight
14:35:59 <cheater> then go to the doc right away
14:41:30 -!- jack___ has joined.
14:42:03 -!- jack___ has changed nick to Jackoz.
14:44:20 -!- Jackoz has left.
14:47:17 <Gregor> Well that was fascinating.
15:06:55 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
15:07:29 -!- cpressey has joined.
15:11:59 <coppro> such a horribly minced song :(
15:12:28 <Phantom_Hoover> OMFG, someone on Reddit suggested making a film with Will Ferrell playing Columbus.
15:13:04 -!- Slereah has joined.
15:14:18 <cpressey> better idea: zombie Will Ferrell playing zombie Columbus
15:14:21 <cheater> is there a language which interprets zalgo?
15:15:11 <coppro> interesting fact: the words "Que Sera Sera" were based on Italian, but was changed to be Spanish-like to be more familiar. However, it isn't grammatically correct in Spanish and requires a tense change and some other words. However, if you add a word at the start and a comma, then you get a valid French sentence that means what it's supposed to
15:16:08 <coppro> hooray for romance languages!
15:35:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Jesus, the Greeks were _insanely_ close to an industrial revolution.
15:35:56 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:36:15 <Phantom_Hoover> (NO I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR "LOGIC" I WOULD TOTALLY STILL HAVE BEEN BORN)
15:50:18 <Gregor> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31917308&l=75ffb3329d&id=1055580469 <-- VERY IMPORTANT
15:53:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, wait, you're an uncultured American and hence have never seen TV Burp.
15:54:31 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: No videos at schwork.
15:54:36 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.31(!!!): 16k+4k to Australia, 2M(!!!)+20x64k to China, 256k+4x64k to Indonesia, 1k to Japan, 1M to South Korea, 1k to Malaysia, 128k+64k to Singapore, 16k+8k to Vietnam.
15:55:44 <Sgeo> America O'Clock. I liek it
15:56:33 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: True fact: The Greeks were the first to invent the Device.
15:57:05 -!- lament has joined.
15:57:07 <cpressey> Also, I can watch videos at work, but, as a general rule, I don't.
15:57:26 <Gregor> I'm perfectly allowed to, but my desktop here has no speakers or headphones :P
15:57:36 <cpressey> Your sheer level of excitement makes me suspicious
15:57:57 <Ilari> Estimate for APNIC depletion jumped to Tuesday 12th April.
15:58:51 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:59:38 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, don't worry, it's totally not a front for the Device.
16:00:59 <Ilari> 2.429 blocks for March. There's still 1 day to go.
16:06:28 <Ilari> Average allocation rate during last 25 business days: About 2 million addresses per day.
16:10:23 <fizzie> I'm hoping for April 15th; first RIR depletion would be a nice birthday present.
16:11:04 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
16:16:29 -!- cheater- has joined.
16:17:24 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
16:17:58 <Ilari> 327936 addresses left of second to last (normally allocated) /8.
16:18:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I've just remembered that the Greeks also had the beginnings of electricity, robotics and steam power as well.
16:18:46 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:19:19 <Gregor> This was of course before they ascended to a higher plane of existence, leaving behind fragmentary artifacts of their civilization.
16:19:45 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it was before it all fell to pieces in an entirely mundane and depressing fashion.
16:20:04 <Gregor> Sadly, they too were locked in their matrix of solidity.
16:20:22 <cheater> supermodel has model friend over and she's looking me over.
16:20:42 <cpressey> Speaking of civilization falling to pieces
16:20:54 <Gregor> "Why would she hire someone who looks like a Toad? Yukk!"
16:21:10 <cheater> "will he turn into a prince?"
16:21:17 <Ilari> Those 320k addresses should be gone tomorrow (APNIC being down to its final normal /8).
16:21:35 <Gregor> cheater: Wrong kind of toad. I said "Toad", as in the species from the Mario universe :P
16:22:06 <cpressey> I know them as Mushroom Retainers. I don't know where I picked up that nomenclature. Somewhere before it was standardized, I guess.
16:22:44 <cpressey> oh, at least one thing thinks that's the official name: http://www.mariowiki.com/Mushroom_Retainer
16:22:49 <Gregor> The Toad species is effectively the happy Mario borg. They act as one. There is only one Toad and only one Toadette, and yet they are a species.
16:24:50 <cheater> supposedly she is the stylist of some important actress.
16:26:33 <cpressey> there are important actresses?
16:26:43 <cpressey> ooh, entertainment industry burn!
16:27:31 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:31:36 <Ilari> 0.59 blocks this week (and only on day 3 out of 5).
16:32:09 <cheater> Ilari: is there an abnormal /8?
16:32:48 <Ilari> There is 103/8 (no allocations there yet), which is allocated using special rules.
16:33:04 <cheater> what special rules and why?
16:33:58 <Ilari> IIRC, 1k addresses per registrant.
16:37:34 <fizzie> RIPE has that additional special rule for their last /8 that you can only get an allocation from it if you already have a IPv6 allocation from a RIPE LIR.
16:37:40 <fizzie> APNIC doesn't have that one.
16:39:17 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
16:39:24 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: mutation is often considerably harder for both humans and compilers can analyze it much more difficult' part that induces bloody vomit... huh....intriguing
16:39:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:39:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:54:46 -!- cheater has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:59:48 -!- cal153 has joined.
17:04:29 <Gregor> I MUST MAKE LIBC.SO MINE
17:09:52 -!- augur has joined.
17:18:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
17:34:47 <Gregor> `addquote * Received a CTCP VERSION from nyuszika7h * VERSION Microsoft IRC# 2011 64-bit (Windows 8 Beta, x64, 2GB RAM) <nyuszika7h> Gregor: Windows 8 Beta? o_O <Gregor> A small benefit of my brief time as an intern at MS.
17:34:50 <HackEgo> 339) * Received a CTCP VERSION from nyuszika7h * VERSION Microsoft IRC# 2011 64-bit (Windows 8 Beta, x64, 2GB RAM) <nyuszika7h> Gregor: Windows 8 Beta? o_O <Gregor> A small benefit of my brief time as an intern at MS.
17:53:52 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
17:53:52 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
17:53:52 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
17:55:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:55:49 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
17:57:05 <cpressey> addquoting yourself? isn't that like commenting on your own facebook status?
18:01:17 <Gregor> Yup, but I'm JUST THAT AWESOME.
18:01:25 <Gregor> `addquote <cpressey> addquoting yourself? isn't that like commenting on your own facebook status? <Gregor> Yup, but I'm JUST THAT AWESOME.
18:01:26 <HackEgo> 340) <cpressey> addquoting yourself? isn't that like commenting on your own facebook status? <Gregor> Yup, but I'm JUST THAT AWESOME.
18:07:12 <Gregor> http://pastebin.com/kw6Rrspw <-- ##javascript is hell.
18:09:48 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
18:15:31 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:18:25 -!- wareya has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:28:57 <oerjan> <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: mutation is often considerably harder for both humans and compilers can analyze it much more difficult' part that induces bloody vomit... huh....intriguing
18:28:58 <fungot> oerjan: the soundtrack was pretty fnord to me. is there any other stupid questions he marked you down for? :d
18:29:05 <oerjan> quite intriguing indeed.
18:29:08 -!- wareya has joined.
18:29:34 <oerjan> `addquote <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: mutation is often considerably harder for both humans and compilers can analyze it much more difficult' part that induces bloody vomit... huh....intriguing
18:29:34 <fungot> oerjan: are you in an aware state when the only hammer you have is for variable assignation and blocks
18:29:34 <HackEgo> 341) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: mutation is often considerably harder for both humans and compilers can analyze it much more difficult' part that induces bloody vomit... huh....intriguing
18:30:06 <fungot> oerjan: well... i'm there at once to understand what's wrong with a generally accepted set of morals just defeats the point
18:30:35 <oerjan> yes the real point is THERE ARE NO MORALS
18:32:19 <cpressey> oerjan: thank you for adding that gem
18:34:13 <oerjan> (seen on public toilet)
18:39:25 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:41:25 -!- elliott has joined.
18:41:49 -!- elliott has left.
18:42:15 -!- copumpkin has joined.
18:46:15 <cpressey> I'd like to write some graffiti in Haskell somewhere
18:47:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:48:34 -!- elliott has joined.
18:48:42 <elliott> cpressey: make it revolutionary haskell graffiti
18:48:50 <elliott> FIX SOCIETY = SOCIETY $ FIX SOCIETY
18:48:52 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
18:50:56 <oerjan> i take it revolutionary haskell uses all caps for function variables
18:51:13 <oerjan> what does it use for constructors?
18:55:17 -!- elliott has joined.
18:55:22 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
18:58:21 <cpressey> {/, \} are tricky, the rest are trivial
18:59:22 <cpressey> {:, @, *} are their own inverses. < and > are inverses, as are / and \
19:01:40 <cpressey> and you're right oerjan -- they mainly don't commute with each other -- that's what makes them "productive" as commands, I guess :)
19:02:32 <cpressey> oh, but i don't have a good way to halt yet :/
19:12:28 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:20:58 -!- elliott has joined.
19:21:01 <elliott> oerjan: you're a cheapskate.
19:21:25 <oklopol> and you are too fool to be cool
19:22:38 <elliott> Bidding for 8 Papyri beginning 3/15
19:22:58 <olsner> elliott: cursive? not *re*cursive? :D
19:23:31 <oklopol> cpressey: it's not a table pool, it's a table that has to do with pools.
19:23:59 <oklopol> but i suppose pool table could also mean a table pool
19:24:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:24:03 <oklopol> depends on your eye of looking
19:24:07 <Phantom_Hoover> <Gregor> http://pastebin.com/kw6Rrspw <-- ##javascript is hell.
19:30:50 <cpressey> Shouldn't that be, like, Phantom_Hoover ← food?
19:32:29 <elliott> cpressey: can you tell me what the point of yoob is i haven't been able to figure it out :D
19:34:12 <ais523> elliott: it's an esointerpreter, what more is needed?
19:36:32 * oerjan chews on Phantom_Hoover
19:38:38 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:41:37 <elliott> wait *= return PhantomHoover
19:42:08 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:42:25 <ais523> elliott: how did you not know Anemocrats = a subset of UNDEAD members?
19:42:30 <ais523> (I'm not sure if it's a /proper/ subset)
19:42:59 <oerjan> how's their finance policy, is what i want to know
19:43:37 <elliott> ais523: I know next to nothing about UNDEAD
19:43:48 <elliott> ais523: I don't logread Agora :)
19:43:49 <ais523> neither does anyone else, but at least I know /that/
19:44:00 <elliott> WELL SORRY, MASTER OF UNDEAD INFO :D
19:44:51 <oerjan> also, http://www.reddit.com/r/trees
19:45:16 <ais523> elliott: I learnt recently that the creator of LoseThos was banned from /r/LoseThos on Reddit
19:45:21 <ais523> which I think is a little hilarious
19:45:25 <elliott> ais523: he was banned from reddit entirely
19:45:30 <elliott> but he's back under a new name
19:45:43 <elliott> ais523: looks like /r/losethos was banned itself
19:46:05 <ais523> possibly because all its admins had been banned?
19:47:13 <elliott> ais523: quite possibly, but you can have a subreddit without admins
19:47:37 <elliott> "James. Simple compilers are easy, professional are hard. Why make an OS at all by that logic? Change the language because immitation is doomed from the start. I have if statements like this:
19:48:28 <cpressey> < elliott> so's esco :D <-- so, because there are already implementations of esolangs, there is no point to implementing those esolangs -- is this what you're saying?
19:48:39 <elliott> cpressey: no, that was a joke
19:48:52 <cpressey> so what don't you get about yoob?
19:48:54 <elliott> nothing against yoob, i'm just trying to figure out why you subjected yourself to java :)
19:49:07 <cpressey> it was either that or javascript or flash
19:49:17 <elliott> at least js has scheme roots ;D
19:49:44 <ais523> elliott: writing in Java's like writing in asm
19:49:56 <ais523> it isn't bad, it just takes ages and is unnecessarily verbose and boilerplaty
19:50:09 <elliott> ais523: yeah, but you can do fun tricks with asm :)
19:50:39 <elliott> cpressey: anyway NOT STRICTLY TRUE you could also have used: Python
19:50:52 <cpressey> I can use Python on the JVM too
19:51:06 <cpressey> I don't want to use Python though
19:51:37 <elliott> WHY DID I EVER GO INTO IRC STANDUP
19:52:09 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: D'aww, it was there before :(
19:52:13 <elliott> cpressey: then why am I laughing?
19:52:30 <cpressey> b/c things can be funny even when they aren't jokes
19:52:56 <elliott> cpressey: you should integrate shiro into it by using LambdaVM, that would be painless and fun
19:53:18 -!- copumpkin has joined.
19:54:01 <cpressey> you should tell me what to do, you have good ideas
19:54:06 <oerjan> <elliott> if (1<=i<=10) {" <-- python does that...
19:54:20 -!- rapido has joined.
19:54:31 <elliott> then he goes on about not making C optimised because it should be close to asm, so I guess "1<=i<=10" is closer to asm than "1<=i && i<=10" :D
19:54:42 <oerjan> well python was innovative when it stole it from math, of course
19:54:57 <elliott> oerjan: how do you respond to the accusations of you being a cheapskate?
19:55:07 <cpressey> elliott, like Gregor, is just that awesome
19:55:30 <elliott> cpressey: i sense this slight hint of sarcasm
19:55:39 <oerjan> elliott: i do not recall the details of that event, i may very well not have had more to bid
19:55:44 <HackEgo> 340) <cpressey> addquoting yourself? isn't that like commenting on your own facebook status? <Gregor> Yup, but I'm JUST THAT AWESOME.
19:56:12 <HackEgo> 339) * Received a CTCP VERSION from nyuszika7h * VERSION Microsoft IRC# 2011 64-bit (Windows 8 Beta, x64, 2GB RAM) <nyuszika7h> Gregor: Windows 8 Beta? o_O <Gregor> A small benefit of my brief time as an intern at MS.
19:56:55 <elliott> Gregor: so how did nyuszika7h react :P
19:57:02 <elliott> oerjan: you bid slightly higher after that, but only slightly :D
19:57:10 <ais523> I've never even heard of IRC#
19:57:22 <ais523> also, is that VERSION response genuine?
19:57:27 <elliott> whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh
19:57:34 <elliott> Gregor: golly, quite the breeze here
19:57:55 <Gregor> elliott: WHAT? I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE HURRICANE-FORCE WINDS
19:58:05 <elliott> "I insist on telling you you are a sleep walking zombie." --Mr. LoseThos
19:58:25 <elliott> "Can I just tell you that you are a sleep walking zombie" "Oh, you don't have to!" "I insist!"
19:58:36 <HackEgo> 136) <alise> like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English <ais523> alise: that's great filler <alise> ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language...
19:58:44 <rapido> are there any new esolangs lately that introduce a completely new paradigm? i.e. the social network language?
19:58:48 <elliott> ais523: hmm, third-best then
19:58:54 <elliott> rapido: the... social network language?
19:59:03 <elliott> rapido: there's Feather :-D
19:59:23 <ais523> but Feather's just OO done right
19:59:25 <ais523> it isn't a new paradigm
19:59:48 <elliott> ais523: no, you _thought_ Feather was OO done right
19:59:51 <ais523> (note: for certain insane values of "right")
19:59:56 <elliott> but i'm fairly sure it ended up actually being not OO at all :)
20:00:11 <cpressey> I was going to say 'for certain excessively-dimensional values of "right"'
20:00:13 <oklopol> no, at some point feather will have been oo done right all along
20:00:15 <elliott> well, sufficiently different
20:00:32 <rapido> hey - it is not OO - it is PO now: Person(al) Oriented language
20:01:14 <rapido> PO languages have relationships
20:01:26 <elliott> rapido: this sounds terrible
20:01:32 <ais523> elliott: I think rapido's trying to invent a new paradigm
20:01:37 <ais523> and who cares if it's terrible
20:01:39 <elliott> i know, i'm commenting on it :D
20:01:46 <elliott> hey, you don't know that that isn't a compliment.
20:01:48 <ais523> this is definitely the right channel for terrible paradigms
20:01:57 <oerjan> "Please calculate 2+2" "Sorry, I have a headache"
20:02:15 <rapido> oerjan: yes, some expressions are feminine
20:02:34 <oklopol> before you can use an object, you have to move it along your code for a sufficiently long time so it starts trusting you
20:02:40 <cpressey> SORRY NOT RELEVANT TO PRESENT CONVERSATION
20:02:42 <oklopol> send it as arguments to functions and stuff
20:03:04 <elliott> (by which I mean, the worst)
20:03:25 <oerjan> cpressey: hey C++ is person oriented, it annoys everyone!
20:03:27 <oklopol> then of course it might get jealous if you start calling the members of another object
20:03:58 <Sgeo> Gets very jealous if you break the encapsulation of another object
20:03:58 <oklopol> and if you forget to use encapsulation you might get a sexfault
20:04:45 <rapido> ok - you guys are *much* better at PO than I am - how do I learn this new language?
20:05:10 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:05:29 <oklopol> i'm very good at objectifying people
20:07:57 -!- azaq23 has joined.
20:10:26 <oklopol> and eating too much, apparently
20:10:48 <Gregor> Eating too much ... PERSON?
20:12:37 <rapido> ah, this PO stuff is boring
20:13:20 <rapido> what about a tumble oriented language? digital stuff gets tumbled around until something falls out of the tumble
20:13:27 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:13:27 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
20:13:27 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:13:33 <oklopol> so i suppose your nick is rapide because of your short attention span
20:14:44 <oklopol> rapido: so all kinds of random stuff happens?
20:15:27 <cpressey> i imagine the idea would be to build the right kind of filter to prevent everything except what you want to happen, from happening
20:15:33 <cpressey> or at least, i've had that idea before
20:18:05 <rapido> oklopol: not random - at least it should be repeatable
20:19:03 <Gregor> I SHALL GRIND MY SHEEP TO MAKE MY DOUGHNUTS
20:19:04 <rapido> if you tumble long enough the 'result' will eventually fall out of the tumble
20:19:15 <oklopol> so how about, there's this infinite binary tape for memory and a tape head, the +- operation puts random stuff under the head, the <> operation moves the head to a random direction, . and , do something random and [...] executes a random program until the current cell is a random number
20:20:17 <rapido> cpressey: <filter to prevent everything except what you want to happen, from happening> PROLOG?
20:20:27 <elliott> what's that got to do with prolog?
20:20:38 <ais523> elliott: it's basically how Proud works
20:20:44 <ais523> except Proud is uncomputable because of it
20:20:48 <ais523> also because of things like comparing functions
20:20:58 <cpressey> Thue might be a better comparison
20:21:15 <cpressey> or Strelnokoff if you like imperative programming
20:21:22 * Sgeo WTFs at his old indentation style
20:21:49 <rapido> aye - my baby girl is crying - will be back later.......
20:22:19 <Sgeo> What.. indentation style is thi? http://pastie.org/1736638
20:22:48 <cpressey> "i hate you, future maintainer of this program" indentation style
20:23:24 <Sgeo> cpressey, fortunately for me, after writing it, I never touched it again
20:23:59 <elliott> that's actually a real style
20:23:59 <oerjan> <Gregor> I SHALL GRIND MY SHEEP TO MAKE MY DOUGHNUTS <-- i think your recipe may have some typos
20:24:11 <elliott> that a lot of (crazy) people swear by
20:24:31 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indent_style#Banner_style
20:24:34 <Sgeo> ...I'm not even consistent with it, apparently
20:24:50 <Sgeo> Oh wait, that's someone else's code that I took for mine
20:25:13 <elliott> everyone knows whitesmiths is the best
20:25:42 <elliott> ais523: tell the children about YOUR very own indentation style
20:26:13 <ais523> admittedly, I only use that one when trying to annoy people
20:26:27 <ais523> also, the closing }s stack if there are many in a row
20:26:37 <ais523> elliott: no, then it wouldn't make logical sense
20:28:14 <Sgeo> ais523, isn't that what the article calls Lisp-style?
20:28:26 <ais523> the trailing-{ trailing-} thing is entirely logical, just unusual
20:29:44 -!- rapido has quit (Quit: rapido).
20:29:46 <elliott> cpressey: no, I think that style is pretty much objectively perfect
20:29:56 <elliott> except maybe putting all braces of any kind at column 80
20:30:06 <elliott> it'll look just like Python with pseudorandom margin contents
20:30:29 <Gregor> <elliott> it'll look just like Python with pseudorandom margin contents <--- yessssssssss
20:30:44 <cpressey> objective perfection is a personal thing
20:31:04 <elliott> EVERYTHING IS SUBJECTIVE apart from the fact that everything is subjective
20:31:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:31:57 <elliott> Gregor: omg it's so beautiful
20:31:58 <oklopol> lol i read that as everything is surjective
20:32:21 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:32:23 <Gregor> elliott: abort(); }} <-- I disagree with this line.
20:32:33 <oklopol> only if you choose your codomains carefully
20:32:36 <Gregor> elliott: There should be one more space.
20:32:53 <elliott> Gregor: But then it'd overflow (if I hadn't gone off-by-one and accidentally left a tree column)
20:33:08 <elliott> That means that if you nest too deeply, all your {}s get pushed too far to the left.
20:33:14 <elliott> Because of the massive } stack needing spaces.
20:33:43 <ais523> elliott: that's actually quite nice, except it's so hard to visually check that the indentation and {/} correspond
20:33:52 <Gregor> elliott: Better than pushing them into the code :P
20:34:10 <elliott> ais523: just leave it up to trust!
20:34:18 <elliott> Gregor: That's the thing, it WOULD.
20:34:25 <elliott> If you had a long enough } stack, and wanted to avoid getting past column 80,
20:34:31 <elliott> all the {s would have to be aligned with the fisrt } in the } stack.
20:34:34 <ais523> elliott: you know someone would get it wrong while trying to edit an existing program
20:34:35 <elliott> Since it's long, they'd go leftwards.
20:34:39 <elliott> They might even collide with your code!
20:34:47 <elliott> ais523: LET'S MAKE EMACS DO IT AUTOMATICALLY
20:36:07 <elliott> cpressey: IT WAS NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
20:36:40 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:37:51 <Sgeo> I just monologued in an atheist channel about looking for God.
20:39:08 <elliott> Sgeo: welcome to Christianity, brother!
20:39:27 <Gregor> s/Christianity/esotericism/
20:39:32 <Gregor> OR ARE YOU LOCKED IN A MATRIX OF SOLIDITY?
20:40:03 <Phantom_Hoover> NOW THAT HE IS FREED OF THE MATRIX OF SOLIDITY WE CAN MOCK HIM IN SO MANY OTHER WAYS
20:40:24 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I wrote tests for God a while back, but they kind of require God to intimately understand computer technology.
20:40:24 <cpressey> He's always in the last place you look
20:40:40 <Sgeo> I want to lessen it so that God just needs to be able to read, and have a bit better vision
20:41:07 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, isn
20:41:08 <elliott> Sgeo: I thought you already disproved the existence of God with Prolog.
20:41:12 <elliott> What more is there to do?!
20:41:39 <Sgeo> elliott, no, only an all-powerful all-good God.. for some definitions of all-powerful and all-good, come to think of it.
20:41:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left ("Leaving").
20:41:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:41:53 <Sgeo> Oh, I think I included all-knowing in that mix
20:42:07 <oklopol> in 100 years people will be laughing at the thought of there even being a way to express such meaningless things as "god" in natural language. of course i suppose they would have to laugh alone.
20:44:10 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:44:47 <cpressey> in 100 years natural language will evolve static checking capabilities that prevents it from expressing any meaningless idea
20:44:58 <elliott> also, most meaningful ones
20:45:01 -!- Wamanuz5 has joined.
20:45:31 <oerjan> elliott: doubleplus good!
20:47:18 -!- copumpkin has joined.
20:49:39 -!- impomatic has joined.
20:53:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I told someone claiming that MC was aimless and crap that I would care about his opinions when he finished Nethack.
20:54:36 <cpressey> Did you then trap him in a wormhole?
20:55:21 <cpressey> Then embed the wormhole in a tesseract, then plunge the tesseract into the heart of the sun? Because that's what I would have done.
20:55:44 <cpressey> All while listening to a Rush album. Although I can't decide which one right now.
20:56:11 <oerjan> those poor roasted worms
20:58:55 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:59:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Would you recommend this as the music of choice for scientific megalomania?
20:59:33 -!- wareya has joined.
20:59:40 <cpressey> I realized that what I was saying had no real scientific consistency, so prog rock seemed somehow appropriate.
20:59:41 <oerjan> cpressey: if you plunge a wormhole into the sun, you really want to be careful where you put the other end. just saying.
20:59:44 <Gregor> Megalomania needs Mussorgski.
21:00:34 <oerjan> and his exhibitionist pictures
21:01:54 <oerjan> hm wouldn't that essentially end up splitting the sun in two...
21:02:18 <cpressey> Oh, no. The tesseract would prevent that.
21:02:38 <oerjan> i was speaking about wormholes in general, though.
21:02:49 <impomatic> Reddit seems to be playing up here :-(
21:03:05 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> hm wouldn't that essentially end up splitting the sun in two...
21:03:14 <oerjan> it was fine a while ago
21:03:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I was about to say it wouldn't but on second thoughts it actually would.
21:03:29 <cpressey> oh, is this the Elastic Breakage Store doing its thing again?
21:04:10 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it might take quite a while to reach balance, though, dependent on how fast the gas could push through the hole...
21:04:37 <oerjan> hm maybe the gas rushing out would be so fast it actually escaped...
21:04:52 * Phantom_Hoover realises he has strayed into general relativity country.
21:05:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:05:20 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hm that is an interesting question, would the other end attract its surroundings with the full force of the sun or not...
21:05:56 <oerjan> if _not_, then it would increase the chance of the gas escaping, i should think
21:06:19 <cpressey> you know, i shouldn't even start.
21:07:24 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Would you recommend this as the music of choice for scientific megalomania? <-- indeed, Also Sprach Zarathustra should be the thing
21:07:35 <elliott> cpressey: wait, you... work... at work? I don't understand this
21:07:52 <elliott> the internet told me work was where you visited the SFW parts of the internet!
21:10:56 * oerjan starts imagining a porn star being scolded for visiting inappropriate internet sites at work
21:11:13 <impomatic> Elliott: are you still working on the Forth?
21:11:38 <elliott> impomatic: not really, with the amount of bytes it was taking up I seriously doubt I could have fit it in to the number of bytes I had
21:11:48 <oerjan> YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING PORN, NOT THESE RAGE COMICS
21:12:11 <elliott> oerjan: "What's this?... KITTENS?"
21:15:31 <oerjan> "No sir, those are rabbits." "Oh, OK then."
21:18:24 <oerjan> depends on the sorting option, i think
21:18:52 <oerjan> actually the displayed scores _are_ supposed to be upvotes - downvotes.
21:19:29 <oerjan> however, the displayed upvotes and downvotes are fudged for spammer confusing reasons
21:20:13 <oerjan> (they don't want sockpuppet voters to know if their voting was detected as spam or not)
21:20:59 <oerjan> the difference between upvotes and downvotes is supposedly kept correct, however.
21:23:56 <elliott> ais523: [[Go through the entire game with your starting equipment. This is a difficult task, due to the fact that you cannot use any rings, amulets, weapons, spellbooks, or items other than the ones with which you started. This is nearly impossible for the Tourist, due to the class's nature of buying items to start.
21:23:56 <elliott> Exceptions are allowed for the Amulet of Yendor, the Bell of Opening, and any of the items absolutely necessary to retrieve the Amulet of Yendor or the quest artifact that you earn through the quest. --Edrobot]]
21:24:07 <elliott> (yes, yes, wrong channel, it's only three lines)
21:24:13 <oerjan> as a result for most popular posts the fraction of displayed upvotes is always close to 2/3.
21:24:16 <ais523> elliott: is that the Stupid Ascension Tricks list?
21:24:24 <elliott> ais523: nope, [[Unofficial conduct]]
21:24:28 <elliott> ais523: I suspect the poster is mad
21:24:49 <ais523> possible but very difficult, as it means you're going without reflection or MR, possibly both
21:25:38 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:26:17 <elliott> nope, i'm here to bother oerjan
21:26:39 -!- azaq23 has joined.
21:27:35 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:27:59 <oerjan> cpressey: clearly in his heart he doesn't want to stay away, but if we remind him he might stubbornly resist...
21:28:38 <oerjan> elliott: well you've already been reminded
21:29:02 <elliott> seriously though, i'm only here right now because of ch2 :P
21:29:07 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
21:29:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, hmm, which Mussorgsky would you recommend for SCIENCE?
21:29:49 <oerjan> i note that ch2 isn't actually _here_...
21:29:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Nothing in Pictures At An Exhibition really fits, IIRC.
21:30:12 <oerjan> Also Sprach Zarathustra, i said!
21:30:44 <Gregor> I'm getting afraid w.r.t libc.so D-8
21:30:53 <Gregor> It's up to $180 already D-8
21:31:46 -!- Wamanuz5 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:31:48 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: it sounds like a brand of herbal tea
21:32:10 <elliott> <oerjan> i note that ch2 isn't actually _here_...
21:32:14 <elliott> well it has a bug that i'm busy staring at
21:32:51 <elliott> server_read_line is ugly :(
21:33:08 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/geq88/ok_so_most_of_you_dont_like_microsoft_what_could/
21:34:02 <cpressey> why am i clicking your link why why
21:34:02 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: not loading for me, what's the rest of the question?
21:34:08 <ais523> (that's the only reason I clicked hte link)
21:34:19 <ais523> ah, "OK so most of you don't like Microsoft. What could Microsoft do for you to change your mind and make you like them?"
21:35:04 -!- Zuu has joined.
21:35:31 <elliott> give me a copy of Windows 8 Beta, that's what
21:35:55 <cpressey> After much consideration: nothing
21:36:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: see Gregor
21:36:20 <cpressey> the draw is that Gregor is awesome
21:36:21 <Gregor> The problem is that they've lost our trust. Everything they do is so suspicious that it's impossible for them to dig themselves out.
21:36:30 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, hmm, what if they stopped retarding OS design and actually, like, made @?
21:36:48 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I thought you said "stopped' elliott: OH BURN
21:37:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:37:38 <elliott> cpressey: dynamic meta-reflexive hyperspatial self-modifying recursive system @!!!
21:37:50 <elliott> TWISTY PERSISTY RECURSIVE SYSTEM @
21:38:31 <oerjan> system @, recommended by cousin itt
21:38:58 <cpressey> another #esoteric in-vaporware, I assume?
21:39:12 <cpressey> in-vaporware in analogy with in-joke
21:39:28 <elliott> cpressey: @ is a macro in the English language that expands to the (as of yet unknown) final name of what is sometimes referred to as ElliottOS.
21:39:46 <elliott> It is pronounced in the same way that the (as of yet unknown) final name of what is sometimes referred to as ElliottOS is pronounced.
21:41:13 <Gregor> SOMEBODY HELP ME THINK I COULD STILL WIN LIBC.SO D-8
21:42:05 <elliott> Gregor: just put more money in to it, moneybags
21:42:27 <Gregor> I can do that, but I'm not sure if putting myself into the poorhouse in the name of a domain name is such a good idea :P
21:42:32 <ais523> how high has the bidding gone?
21:42:49 <Gregor> $180, and it's only day three >_>
21:43:01 <ais523> I don't think it's worth $180, really
21:43:20 <Gregor> Then don't donate $180, donate less :P
21:43:23 <elliott> ais523: $180 is dirt-cheap for a domain name :)
21:43:38 <Gregor> s/domain/vanity domain/
21:43:42 <elliott> Gregor: After three days when you get bored of it you could sell it for a good amount of money. :P
21:44:03 <Gregor> The only time it will leave my possession is in my last will and testament.
21:44:18 <elliott> So kind of you to give me it!
21:44:27 <ais523> hmm, is this the price for earning the domain name forever?
21:44:29 <elliott> I WILL OUTLIVE YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE OLD AND I AM LESS OLD
21:44:29 <ais523> or do you have to rent it?
21:44:40 <Gregor> ais523: You pay $10/yr
21:44:48 <elliott> Gregor: you could switch registrar, I think
21:44:58 <Gregor> elliott: And pay ... $10/yr :P
21:47:14 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
21:50:32 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: executed HLT).
21:52:58 <Ilari> Heh. New word: "comodogate".
22:10:58 <elliott> 12:38:48 <BlurredWe> so here's what I want to do: a shell script that runs under windows .bat interpreter and also under the sh interpreter. All it needs to do is 'echo "1 2 3" > $2'
22:36:02 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
22:37:08 -!- pumpkin has joined.
22:40:16 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:47:04 <Vorpal> elliott, hi, I found out how complex the health care system in df is. I think saying that there is a skill called "crutch walking" describes the overall complexity fairly well XD
22:50:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:55:35 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:02:24 -!- cheater00 has joined.
23:03:11 <elliott> oerjan: can I prod an underload question at you :D
23:05:09 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:24:58 -!- catseye has joined.
23:40:07 <catseye> yoob ( http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html ) can now run brainfuck, Befunge-93, and Ypsilax.
23:40:14 <Vorpal> elliott, df is really macabre. Want to hear a combat report?
23:41:25 -!- catseye has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:41:37 <Vorpal> elliott, well I'll post it anyway. One line from the multi-page report that is... "The Marksdwarf kicks The Panda in the head with his left foot, bruising the muscle, jamming the skull through the brain and tearing the brain!"
23:45:51 <oerjan> WHAT HOW DARE YOU LEAVE AND WASTE MY TIME
23:46:35 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:48:11 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:52:33 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:54:43 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:55:37 -!- sebbu has joined.
23:59:55 -!- cheater- has joined.
00:02:54 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:06:34 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:08:02 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:46:19 <oerjan> apparently they got elliott
00:57:27 <Sgeo> Dear God, I'm now talking about statistics, trying to find statistical evidence in my little God tester
01:02:35 <Sgeo> What significance level should I use?
01:02:49 <Sgeo> 1/100 sounds safe, I think
01:07:53 <oerjan> good to see you escaped your horrible fate
01:08:21 <elliott> oerjan: the underload question is:
01:08:32 <elliott> what code X does either (whichever is easiest to implement):
01:08:54 <elliott> (a)(b)(c)1X == (a)(c)(b) and (a)(b)(c)2X == (b)(c)(a)
01:09:01 <elliott> where a number is a smith numeral
01:09:11 <elliott> ((a)(b)(c))1X == ((a)(c)(b)) and the same for the other
01:09:22 <oerjan> wtf did we call it smith again
01:09:50 <elliott> that aren't really church numerals
01:10:16 <oerjan> i just forgot if there was a rationale for "smith" specifically
01:10:34 <elliott> you should have said "whytf", i got all confused :D
01:11:09 <oerjan> hm ok so you want c in the middle always
01:11:32 <elliott> oerjan: it's actually just pick
01:11:35 <elliott> it has to work for N elements :)
01:11:43 <elliott> (although N can be fixed at "compile time", if it really must be)
01:11:59 <oerjan> pick? don't you mean roll in that case
01:12:15 <elliott> pick as in "pick Nth element out"
01:12:31 <elliott> this is for a switch statement, btw
01:12:33 <oerjan> i think pick usually leaves the original element there
01:13:17 <oerjan> elliott: in case you have paid any attention my recent programs, i recommend using a (a)(!b)(!!c)(!!!d) structure
01:13:32 <elliott> oerjan: that would be acceptable. (this is for a basic->underload compiler)
01:13:42 <elliott> basically every line is an element in it
01:13:50 <elliott> and to goto, you get the right code on top
01:14:02 <elliott> oerjan: the structure has to be preserved, though
01:14:49 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:15:07 <oerjan> ((a)(!b)(!!c)(!!!d)) -> ((a)(!b)(!!c)(!!!d))c is just :!^, for example
01:15:48 <elliott> oerjan: i'm open to better ideas for goto btw :)
01:16:12 <oerjan> well _i've_ been using a lot of state machines
01:16:12 <elliott> oerjan: the reason i want it on the stack is for computed goto, so you can implement call as a macro
01:16:21 <elliott> well that's what this is, essentially
01:17:39 <oerjan> elliott: you might want to read how my lookup tables work in the minimization section programs
01:18:52 <elliott> Please take a moment to rate this page."
01:19:04 <oerjan> the 110 automaton also uses a similar idea, although not as clear since it has three sets of simultaneous data
01:19:05 * elliott just did it to tick the "I am highly knowledgeable about this topic" box
01:19:12 <oerjan> (that's where i used it first)
01:22:07 <elliott> oerjan: it occurs to me that implementing a functional language might be easier :D
01:23:39 <elliott> right, your lookup tables look useful
01:32:20 -!- variable has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:33:07 -!- variable has joined.
01:39:26 -!- augur has joined.
01:43:25 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:43:45 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:46:34 <elliott> impomatic has a knack for getting on proggit
01:46:56 -!- cal153 has joined.
01:50:27 -!- augur has joined.
01:50:48 -!- Zuu has joined.
01:51:20 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:58:12 -!- augur has joined.
01:59:25 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:06:02 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
02:13:53 <Gregor> Must find people to help me buy libc.so ...
02:14:03 <Sgeo> How's the auction going
02:14:24 <Gregor> Effectively not started yet, but at $180 >_>
02:14:57 <elliott> Gregor: I'll fucking give you money if it'll shut you up ;D
02:15:04 <elliott> Also I demand five emails, since clearly you are needy.
02:15:13 <Sgeo> By "at $180" do you mean that's how much you're putting in when it starts?
02:15:23 <Gregor> Sgeo: At $180 I mean it's at $180 :P
02:15:37 <Sgeo> So what do you mean by "effectively not started yet"?
02:15:40 <Gregor> 's not my $180, I haven't bid anything substantial yet, I'm waiting 'til the auction is a bit more ... "mature"
02:16:29 <Gregor> elliott: Sniping is not possible.
02:16:35 <elliott> Gregor: Ohright, you said.
02:16:42 <elliott> Gregor: Does it have eBay-style maximum bids though?
02:16:49 <Gregor> Also known as "proxy bidding"
02:16:50 <elliott> Or does it always show the honest-to-god current top bid?
02:17:39 <Gregor> I've got a chance, though I've moved from "neutral" to "pessimistic"
02:18:44 <elliott> Why do OSDev communities always have a significantly stupider population than >_< ... I say this, but actually most online programming communities are even stupider...
02:18:45 <Gregor> Mind you, if it was a corporation, it'd already be quite clear that I'm fekked.
02:19:05 <elliott> Gregor: Unless they're a REALLY POOR corporation.
02:19:15 <elliott> Gregor: Bid as "Gregor INCORPORATED" so everyone else gets scared off!
02:19:23 <variable> elliott: probably because the stupid people are the ones who say "I'm going to write MY OWN os"
02:19:31 <Gregor> The auctioning pattern of a corporation in a proxy-bid auction: Bid once. Done.
02:20:02 <elliott> variable: Compatible with Windows, MAC, and OpenVMS V7.1!
02:20:50 <elliott> Gregor: I wondered for a second why eBay doesn't stop sniping themselves, but then I realised that'd drive everyone away because people are idiots >_>
02:21:18 <elliott> (Sniping is still effective, of course, because of LOL PSYCHOLOGY making people willing to pay more as they get outbid.)
02:21:24 <elliott> *effective in a proxy sodfhsdfsd,
02:23:15 <elliott> I'm new in the world of "Operating Systems"
02:23:15 <elliott> I'd like to learn about programming a Operating System.
02:23:15 <elliott> What do you recommend me?"
02:23:58 <elliott> "Writing OS in Assembly (BTW: I'm Crazy)"
02:24:06 <elliott> phillid (the nut who codes in assembly) :P"
02:24:15 <elliott> Obnoxious but not an idiot, right?
02:24:17 <elliott> "- How do I have variables in assembly? Do I have to write to memory addresses and use several of them as variables?
02:24:17 <elliott> - How do I store-up input from the user (using int 0x16) in a variable (or address)?
02:24:18 <elliott> - How do I perform conditional IF statements? All I have found is '%IF' which is only for the compiler to run."
02:25:39 <variable> elliott: he obviously thinks of assembly the same way as a higher level language
02:25:54 <variable> I wouldn't say "completely and totally idiotic" but "wholly uninformed"
02:26:01 <elliott> variable: I wouldn't laugh at someone who has misconceptions (well ok, maybe a little). It's the ego.
02:26:19 <elliott> If you have such self-admitted ignorance, don't plaster statements about how you're this 1337 asm-coding nutcase on your post :P
02:26:35 <variable> elliott: oh - I didn't realize it was the same person
02:26:40 -!- lament has joined.
02:27:49 <variable> elliott: I teach programming to a lot of people. I've learned long ago that the best way to teach is to get the student to formulate some idea of *how* things work - even its its wrong. I usually ask them how they would do it. They think of something that may or may not work - but is interesting and work from that conception slowly molding it to how things actually work.
02:28:04 <elliott> I'm way too impatient to teach :)
02:28:49 <lament> you're too impatient even to stay in the channel
02:28:55 <elliott> "Kolibri is a small x86 assembler hobby operating system. It forked off MenuetOS in 2004 and has mostly been developed by ex-USSR community since." ;; Who the heck identifies as a "ex-USSR community" if you're formed in 2004...
02:29:06 <elliott> lament: Vorpal is a taxing man
02:29:15 <lament> elliott: lots of people
02:31:31 -!- impomatic has joined.
02:35:10 <Sgeo> What's wrong with MenuetOS?
02:56:20 -!- augur has joined.
03:00:56 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:05:07 -!- ch2 has joined.
03:12:39 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
03:14:46 -!- _MERLiN_ has joined.
03:18:39 -!- copumpkin has joined.
03:18:40 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:22:19 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
03:34:30 <elliott> ch2 is unfortunately too hardcore to reply itself.
03:34:36 <elliott> But it has logged your kindness.
03:35:17 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:35:37 <elliott> oerjan: if you listen carefully you can hear it sqling
03:40:56 <Sgeo> .....I called _MERLiN_ a bot...
03:45:02 <_MERLiN_> I was just AFK watching some TV
03:46:52 <elliott> the esoteric programming language wiki
03:46:55 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
03:47:11 <_MERLiN_> dont think i ever heard of it :P
03:47:38 <elliott> (this channel is about esoteric programming languages like brainfuck and INTERCAL, btw, not any other sense of "esoteric")
03:48:47 -!- _MERLiN__ has joined.
03:48:54 <elliott> <elliott> (this channel is about esoteric programming languages like brainfuck and INTERCAL, btw, not any other sense of "esoteric")
03:49:42 <_MERLiN__> I do SQL, C++, Java, C#, VB.NET, PHP, HTML and CSS
03:50:09 <Sgeo> _MERLiN__, now consider learning languages that you would not use on the job.
03:50:19 <elliott> well some of those are certainly...esoteric
03:50:44 -!- Disconnect1010 has joined.
03:51:35 -!- _MERLiN_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:51:37 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:51:44 -!- _MERLiN__ has changed nick to _MERLiN_.
03:51:45 <elliott> Disconnect1010: hello ... no wait you're not cpressey
03:51:53 <elliott> he's sbcglobal.net too though
03:54:02 <_MERLiN_> what are you working on elliott
03:54:13 <_MERLiN_> with your so sweet esoteric languages
03:54:21 <elliott> Nothing in an esolang right now.
03:54:51 <_MERLiN_> Well I hope that all foes well for you ;)
03:59:02 -!- Zuu has joined.
04:01:35 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
04:17:18 <impomatic> So this is what #esoteric looks like at 05:16am!
04:17:53 <elliott> I'm going to bed far too late, I'm going to guess that you're getting up far too early.
04:19:05 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
04:20:59 -!- pingveno has joined.
04:22:46 -!- copumpkin has joined.
04:43:03 -!- Disconnect1010 has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:44:33 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:51:57 -!- Zuu has joined.
04:56:20 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
04:56:42 -!- copumpkin has joined.
05:03:59 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:05:56 -!- lament has joined.
05:18:49 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:26:50 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
05:28:15 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
05:28:22 -!- elliott has joined.
05:33:36 -!- JaysonKaz has joined.
05:34:40 -!- ch2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:34:54 -!- augur has joined.
05:37:05 -!- JaysonKaz has quit (Client Quit).
05:48:01 <quintopia> can anyone tell me how to compute the probability that an asymmetric 1-D random walk returns to the origin?
05:48:33 <quintopia> let's say 73% chance of +1 and 27% of -1
05:49:46 * oerjan just recalls that it's 1 for 50%
05:52:24 <oerjan> i think it was discussed here before though
06:03:49 <lifthrasiir> quintopia, you mean the probability of a random walk "eventually" returning to the origin?
06:04:30 <quintopia> i know it's strictly less than one, but i confuse myself when i try to compute it
06:05:11 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
06:05:11 <elliott> so i just explained @ to someone and now my fingers have died of overexertion @_@
06:05:34 <quintopia> i assume you are awake because of the explaining
06:06:05 <elliott> let's just say: yes, despite the fact that this is a: lie
06:06:58 <oerjan> quintopia: calculate the probability that it ever reaches -1
06:08:31 <oerjan> then in the same way the probability that it ever reaches 1
06:08:54 <elliott> then add the two and divide by love
06:09:12 <oerjan> then use those to calculate the answer
06:09:21 <oerjan> elliott: well close :D
06:09:27 <quintopia> oerjan: actually the probability it reaches -1 is the number i really want
06:09:32 <elliott> love is the best number imo
06:09:39 <elliott> quintopia: calculate the probability that it ever reaches -2
06:09:44 <elliott> then in the same way the probability that it ever reaches 0
06:09:47 <elliott> then use those to calculate the answer
06:09:50 <elliott> oerjan: am i doing it right
06:09:58 <oerjan> quintopia: oh. that's actually simpler than re-reaching the origin.
06:10:46 <elliott> oerjan: I'M SORRY THAT WAS FUNNY?
06:11:22 <oerjan> there are two ways of reaching -1. either immediately, or going right immediately, and then eventually going left, twice. this should give you an equation which you can solve.
06:11:45 <elliott> i like the generality oerjan is approaching this with
06:12:04 <elliott> "First, find the various factors that combine to form the answer to the problem. Then, find the way in which they are combined. This should give you an equation which you can solve."
06:12:11 <quintopia> aka, it looks like it has "probability of returning to origin" as a case in it :P
06:12:29 <oerjan> note that the probability of "eventually going left" from any point == probability of reaching -1 from 0
06:12:58 <oerjan> quintopia: yes, but only the case of returning to origin when you already know you are at 1
06:14:02 <oerjan> quintopia: aka the probability of eventually going left.
06:14:29 <quintopia> and also the probability of getting back to 1 before you do that
06:15:39 <quintopia> there are lots of ways to construct binary strings such that until the last couple of digits, there have been more 1s than 0s so far
06:15:46 <oerjan> it's a recursive equation, of course.
06:17:06 <quintopia> something i could presumably use the Master theorem to solve
06:17:42 <oerjan> note "recursive" here means the probability is written in terms of itself, there's no actual recursive _function_ involved
06:18:53 <oerjan> unless you overcomplicate things
06:23:28 <quintopia> i got the probability of never making it to -1 as 5329/8029 for the above probabilities. look right?
06:23:46 <elliott> that's an impressive probability
06:24:05 <oerjan> i didn't actually expect it to be _rational_. let me see...
06:24:53 <oerjan> oh. i don't think that's right.
06:25:07 <oklopol> "<quintopia> something i could presumably use the Master theorem to solve" xD
06:25:35 <elliott> oerjan: you just want everything to be irrational!
06:25:48 <oerjan> quintopia: instead of "eventually going left, twice", you are "eventually going left" once and then immediately going left.
06:25:51 <quintopia> oklopol: it's 2:25am. feel free to laugh all you want.
06:26:19 <oklopol> quintopia: no i'm not laughing at you, i'm laughing because *you're stupid*
06:26:41 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> quintopia: no i'm not laughing at you, i'm laughing because *you're stupid* <oklopol> i mean <oklopol> with you
06:26:45 <HackEgo> 343) <oklopol> quintopia: no i'm not laughing at you, i'm laughing because *you're stupid* <oklopol> i mean <oklopol> with you
06:26:50 <HackEgo> 291) <oerjan> (the former is a very deep theorem, i'd have had to read the whole book to understand it, so i didn't.)
06:26:50 <HackEgo> 68) <oklopol> actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge
06:26:50 <HackEgo> 83) <Warrigal> It's not incest if you're third cousins!
06:26:51 <HackEgo> 98) <Warrigal> Ah, vulva. <Warrigal> What is that, anyway?
06:26:52 <quintopia> maybe i should sleep and look at it again tomorrow when i'm less stupid
06:26:52 <HackEgo> 162) <ais523> cpressey: I have actually done a waterfall-model project that almost worked <cpressey> That's where you have a flexible kayak that bobs and weaves between the rocks as it plummets off the cliff
06:27:43 <oklopol> i'll be really fucking obnoxious about math all day
06:27:46 <oklopol> "<oerjan> (the former is a very deep theorem, i'd have had to read the whole book to understand it, so i didn't.)" <<< xD what a retard
06:27:59 <elliott> oklopol: please do, it'll be amazing
06:28:07 <elliott> <Warrigal> It's not incest if you're third cousins!
06:28:10 <elliott> thath isn't even a number!
06:28:28 <oklopol> I DECIDE WHAT'S NUMBER OR NOT
06:29:11 <quintopia> oerjan: so the problem is i might eventually go left multiple times before i finally go left twice, yes?
06:29:44 <oerjan> quintopia: um... i guess you could put it like that
06:30:04 <quintopia> aka, go from 1 to 0 many times before going to -1
06:30:27 -!- SimonRC has joined.
06:30:30 <oerjan> yes. but you really only need to consider the _first_ time you go from 1 to 0.
06:30:41 <oklopol> so the probability q of eventually going left satisfies the equation q = l + r*q^2 right
06:30:46 <oerjan> the rest is going from 0 to -1, eventually.
06:31:21 * oerjan swats oklopol for revealing the equation -----###
06:31:49 <oerjan> i was _trying_ not to spoonfeed a finished solution here...
06:31:52 <oklopol> well probability questions are kind of stupid unless the measure is given
06:32:00 <oklopol> oerjan: i actually realized that just before saying
06:32:17 <oklopol> i haven't really been reading all that carefully
06:32:38 <quintopia> oerjan: it's all right. i purposefully ignored oklopol's comment so i could work it out myself
06:33:00 <oklopol> but yeah then it's easy to see 0 -> 0 from that
06:33:17 <oklopol> with 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25 distribution, the probability should be 1
06:34:06 <quintopia> oerjan: problem. there are two solutions for p in [0,1] >.>
06:34:26 <oerjan> oklopol: interesting, maybe it helps breaking it into quadrants or something?
06:34:38 <oerjan> quintopia: one of them might be 1 perhaps?
06:35:28 <elliott> what's the probability that a random walk in six dimensions is stupid
06:35:58 <quintopia> for random walks in dim>2 the probability of returning the the origin is <1 (zero perhaps)
06:36:09 <oklopol> quintopia: you could explicitly calculate the probability that it returns in 7000000 steps, if it's more than 0.5, you're done
06:36:19 <oklopol> quintopia: 0.3 or something in 3d
06:36:40 <oerjan> quintopia: um should .83 be .73 up there
06:36:47 <oklopol> see it can always return right away
06:36:51 <oklopol> which is not that unlikely
06:37:09 <quintopia> but it's weird that it should be .3 or something
06:37:28 <oerjan> quintopia: um you did calculate with .73 did you?
06:37:55 <quintopia> haha, no. i changed it to .73 and this time one of the solutions is 1. phew
06:38:36 <oklopol> is there a specific reason why there should just be 1 answer?
06:38:40 <oerjan> good. 1 nearly has to be a solution for this kind of trick.
06:38:43 <quintopia> (the other one is 27/73, strangely enough. now it makes sense that 50/50 probability gives you a return probability of 1!)
06:38:49 <oklopol> okay what oerjan said i guess
06:39:03 <oklopol> quintopia: oh cool, is that always true?
06:39:27 <oerjan> hm indeed so it _is_ rational
06:40:50 <oerjan> quintopia: hm wait there's something weird about that, the solution the _other_ way cannot be 73/27 :D
06:41:21 <oklopol> l+r*(l/r)^2 = l + l(l/r) = l(r + l)/r = l / r
06:41:41 <oerjan> quintopia: if it's l/r in general then that should hold even if l is _larger_ than r, which is impossible
06:42:18 <quintopia> in that case the probability series diverges
06:42:28 <quintopia> and the probability of hitting -1 becomes 1
06:42:30 <oerjan> maybe it's simply that then it's the 1 solution which is correct
06:43:29 <oklopol> although it does seem like god gave us an easy way out
06:44:01 <elliott> you know hwo else gave us a way out
06:44:10 <oerjan> <quintopia> for random walks in dim>2 the probability of returning the the origin is <1 (zero perhaps) <-- cannot be zero unless the single step probabilities are zero, there is always _some_ chance of going an exact path back
06:45:01 <oklopol> yes, so that's actually true in all groups
06:46:53 <oklopol> so in 2d, we at least know that with probability 1, every row is returned to
06:47:17 <oklopol> maybe that doesn't really help at all
06:47:39 <oklopol> the point is exactly to investigate the relation between returns
06:47:57 <oklopol> and by "the point", i'm not sure what i mean
06:48:38 <oerjan> maybe you could look at the probability that it returns to a subsquare
06:49:02 <oerjan> centered on the origin
06:49:24 <oklopol> i was thinkng more, for a half-plane, we could solve with which probabilities it returns to each cell on its border
06:49:49 <quintopia> oerjan: or inside a L1 circle of the origin
06:50:06 <oerjan> the thing here is we need the distribution for how much it jumps between each time it crosses an axis
06:50:19 <oerjan> and that could be complicated
06:50:53 <oklopol> well i was thought you might be able to solve that similarly to the 1d case by using some serious magix
06:51:19 <oklopol> no sorry that was not for what you said, it was what i thought you said
06:51:44 <quintopia> http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/9116/conditions-for-2d-random-walk-to-return-to-origin oshit fourier transforms
06:51:57 <oerjan> L1 circle, that's a diamond shape
06:53:40 <oklopol> okay enough fucking around, i should go do math
06:53:54 <quintopia> "no more math, it's time for math"
06:54:20 <oklopol> well yeah but math i suck less at
06:55:08 <oklopol> well i'm going to do graph theory today, but it's just for a course
06:55:22 <oklopol> mostly i do navigation theory for automata, and cellular automata
06:55:24 <quintopia> maybe you should polish your fingernails instead
06:55:31 <quintopia> that graph theory will do itself later
07:00:36 -!- ch2 has joined.
07:19:59 <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vODFxYg I find taskbars to be... inadequate.
07:20:15 <elliott> I like how it can't even fit an ellipsis in there.
07:21:03 * elliott tries to make it exactly like the Windows 7 taskbar, because dammit that thing is good.
07:22:26 <olsner> at least it would be if windows had reasonable icons
07:22:53 <elliott> olsner: true, but when using windows i severely restrict the set of software i use, so that hasn't given me a problem :)
07:23:13 <olsner> all of the windows icons look either like a folder with some crud on top, or a stylized window that looks exactly like every other "stylized window" icons
07:23:23 <olsner> at least the built-in stuff
07:23:27 <elliott> unfortunately X11 is far too unsemantic to allow me to make it *exactly* like the windows 7 taskbar in that it ignores the windows and just shows a big list of tabs when i click :(
07:23:40 <elliott> OTOH, that list would be impossibly huge
07:23:57 <elliott> how did I ever get by with 1336x768?
07:24:17 <olsner> just define a new X11 protocol for communicating sets of tabs to taskbars
07:24:29 <elliott> olsner: i'm not ubuntu, i can't extend X11 effectively :D
07:25:15 <elliott> olsner: honestly though, emphasising the icons over the text is a good idea, when was the last time you looked at the window titles in your taskbar?
07:25:45 <olsner> I wonder what it'd be like if you had your own dedicated support and development team and could just tell them that you want some random feature and they'd fix it
07:26:00 <elliott> olsner: That would be a world where @ exists.
07:26:04 <elliott> did you mean me specifically or just in general :D
07:26:16 <elliott> i'm just kidding, @ wouldn't exist in that world, i couldn't let them create something so important
07:26:40 <elliott> olsner: it'd be like being mark shuttleworth, i suspect :D
07:27:52 <olsner> emphasizing icons is good, and I'd say Mac gets that right... I guess mostly because big, useful and vectorized icons have been possible and expected for long enough
07:28:23 <elliott> ubuntu does not like it when you resize its panel: http://ompldr.org/vODFxaA
07:28:41 <olsner> and windows 7 got the "showing icons are great!" part but missed the part where you have good icons to show
07:28:51 <elliott> excuse me, lol screenshot is the current topic
07:29:06 <elliott> the problem with OS X's dock is
07:29:12 <elliott> it's perfectly good for choosing the application
07:29:17 <elliott> but gets you nowhere for choosing the window inside
07:29:37 <olsner> hmm, I think it does nowadays
07:29:48 <elliott> you mean if you hold it down?
07:29:56 <elliott> sure. it feels like an eternity.
07:30:23 <olsner> at least I remember seeing a menu with the windows, dunno exactly how I got it :)
07:30:34 <elliott> now that opens an expose-type thing
07:30:44 <elliott> holding down used to always = right clicking
07:30:47 <elliott> but apple don't give a shit about consistency
07:30:53 <elliott> they also changed the colour of the menus of the dock items in snow leopard
07:31:25 <elliott> wow, my panel is now animated.
07:31:32 <elliott> it is spazzing out because it can't place the number of window icons it wants.
07:32:20 <elliott> fuck it, it stays at default size.
07:32:46 <elliott> computers are so inadequate :(
07:33:15 <olsner> computers are just missing the software to make them useful
07:33:34 <elliott> olsner: it's not like the hardware is perfect either :)
07:34:05 <elliott> hmm, maybe i'll just put this window list button in some Fittsy place and remove the selector entirely.
07:36:39 <elliott> i should try out wmii or ratpoison or ion, maybe they can keep track of my thousands of windows
07:40:53 <elliott> really i should just replace ubuntu altogether, but getting linux installed on this is a massive time investment
07:42:50 <elliott> ah, look at that. i'm hating everything again!
07:43:45 <elliott> olsner: i wonder if i was made like this so that i would be forced to either complete @ or commit suicide
07:44:20 <elliott> my experiences with linux on this machine have reaffirmed that buying apple hardware is a bad idea, despite the hardware itself being excellent >_<
07:46:24 <elliott> mmm, consuming food is a thing that is good ... i have to take /some/ pleasure while grumping out
07:46:32 <elliott> oerjan: you should be the one grumping out, not me.
07:47:34 <olsner> norwegian can only express cheerfulness, so I don't think they know how to do grumpy
07:48:03 <olsner> I guess they could in english though
07:48:07 <elliott> no. i know oerjan as a profoundly grumpy man.
07:48:20 <elliott> btw this gives norwegians are better reputation than finns
07:48:38 <elliott> (this is mostly vorpal's fault)
07:49:18 <olsner> did you mean *I'm* lame or just that swedes are lame?
07:49:26 <elliott> swedes. i gather you're one?
07:50:19 <elliott> • ±100% test coverage core functions and
07:51:06 <elliott> what happened to ~, that's one of the best characters
07:51:10 <elliott> i just put ~ in front of anything i'm not certain about
07:51:15 <elliott> "yeah, blahblah is ~stable"
07:55:01 <elliott> that's upsettingly logical
07:55:13 <olsner> sorry for making sense :(
07:55:37 <elliott> olsner: it's ok, apology accepted
07:56:10 <olsner> maybe I'll just go where the going will have gone me
07:56:26 <elliott> i give you the elliott medal in coherency
07:58:21 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: you should be the one grumping out, not me. <-- hey i don't have to grumping loudly all the time do i...
07:58:38 <elliott> we are excelling grammar in these last statements few
08:00:27 <oerjan> A WORD ONCE VERBED CANNOT BE UNVERBED
08:08:04 <elliott> oerjan: i'm afraid we now require a recording of you saying "hey i don't have to grumping loudly all the time do i..."
08:08:21 <elliott> hey i could rebind my caps lock key to the window manager control key. that is a thing i could do.
08:08:30 <oerjan> once again, saved by my lack of a microphone
08:08:43 <elliott> oerjan: i'll just ask oklopol for your address and send one there
08:08:49 <elliott> at least i think oklopol said he knew your address at one point
08:08:54 <elliott> point is, expect microphone.
08:09:04 <elliott> it will be addressed to "O. Er Jan"
08:17:57 <elliott> maybe what i need is a program that closes windows at random whenever i have more than five
08:18:22 <oerjan> there's probably a market for that.
08:21:19 <elliott> what is taking up half both my cpus...
08:21:36 <elliott> total used free shared buffers cached
08:21:37 <elliott> -/+ buffers/cache: 3550 149
08:21:54 <elliott> chrome, why are you eating my ram
08:22:18 <elliott> i need an all-powerful computer
08:23:32 <fizzie> htkallas 11846 0.3 2.9 6127828 115692 ? Sl Mar25 27:01 /usr/lib/firefox-3.6.16/plugin-container /usr/local/lib/libflashplayer.so 11698 plugin
08:23:43 <fizzie> 6 gigabytes is a rather impressive virtual memory size.
08:25:08 <elliott> that free -m sticker will take into account like shared stuff i guess
08:25:16 <elliott> so chrome is actually eating all my ramen (plural of ram) :(
08:29:58 <oerjan> clearly that's because chrome is all spaghetti code copypasta
08:39:06 <elliott> anyone have logs of 9-13th december 2002?
08:39:19 <elliott> fizzie's logs start slightly after the big bang.
08:47:10 <elliott> --- Log opened Mon Dec 09 07:24:10 2002
08:47:19 <elliott> oerjan: let's luahg at fizzie for being awake at the 7 ams
08:49:34 <elliott> [19:52:30] < navigator> i'm in pine, slrn, bitchx, emacs (for notes), four ttys that vary between emacs, wget, lynx and gcc/gdb, tty9 is sendmail -q ; fetchmail -a, tty10 is slrnpull, 11 is mpg123 and 12 a root console (wvdial etc)
08:49:35 <elliott> a time when wizards spoke in codes
08:52:03 <fizzie> Around that time I was doing my "civil service" thing (we have this conscription thing + alternatives) in a place where I needed to be at... 08:30am, maybe? Something like that.
08:52:54 <elliott> fizzie: perhaps you are dumb? oklopol has so far applied his intelligence to magically avoid doing that
08:53:03 <elliott> i am unfamiliar with the details, but i think they involve genius in some manner
08:53:14 <elliott> at least this is the impression I received.
08:53:42 <elliott> [22:25:18] < navigator> hey
08:53:42 <elliott> [22:26:06] < fizzie> welcome back, or something.
08:53:42 <elliott> [22:26:36] < navigator> did an indyone drop by?
08:53:42 <elliott> [22:26:48] < fizzie> umm, no.
08:53:42 <elliott> [22:26:53] < fizzie> actually absolutely nothing happened.
08:53:42 <elliott> [22:27:10] < navigator> ok
08:54:05 <elliott> how often do random computers drop by you
08:55:10 <fizzie> It's rather easy to postpone that thing up until the age of 28.
08:55:29 <elliott> oh. well oklopol is like 12
08:55:35 <elliott> so yeah i guess it's only a matter of time
08:55:54 <fizzie> And it's not *incredibly* difficult to manage to avoid it completely, or so I hear.
08:55:59 <fizzie> For example by being medically unfit.
08:56:06 <fizzie> Or psychologically unfit, I guess.
08:56:47 <elliott> "oh, work, uh, i don't really wanna do that?, sounds difficult"
08:57:46 <fizzie> "Hullun paperit", i.e. "certificate of craziness", is the usual term of getting an official excuse due to mental health issues.
08:58:20 <elliott> btw fizzie it's really cringing me here where you say that $_[0] is looking in the $_ array which is the default input
08:58:24 <elliott> in some perl code in this log
08:58:29 <elliott> it's quite impolite to be wrong in the past
08:58:44 <Vorpal> <elliott> • ±100% test coverage core functions and <-- typo? stupidity? joke? something else?
08:58:46 <fizzie> I have been wrong many, many times.
08:59:01 <elliott> Vorpal: just bad usage of charrrs ;(
08:59:06 <elliott> fizzie: please don't be :(
08:59:17 <elliott> Vorpal: btw you know how you set envbot did some horrible horrible crap to do return vars?
08:59:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm currently trying to come up with a context where ±100% would make sense. Some really inexact measurement perhaps?
08:59:54 <fizzie> Also it's possible to just say "I'm not doing your military service, and I'm not doing the civilian service alternative either", after which you get thrown in jail; but the vast majority of those sentences are served in "open prisons" where you can do a quasi-normal life for the duration.
09:00:00 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: btw you know how you set envbot did some horrible horrible crap to do return vars? <-- yes
09:00:13 <elliott> Vorpal: lol() { ret=hello }; recvr() { local ret; lol; echo $ret }; ret=hi; recvr; echo $ret
09:00:21 <elliott> Vorpal: so you can already do returns, with evil.
09:00:28 <elliott> (evil being "sh's fucked up scoping")
09:00:36 <Vorpal> elliott, ret is a fixed name there though
09:00:38 <elliott> Vorpal: you can extend this to take the return variable:
09:01:00 <elliott> recvr() { local ret; lol ret; echo $ret }
09:01:05 <elliott> in fact I think you could abstract that out
09:01:06 <fizzie> Amnesty International classifies our in-jail conscientious objectors as "prisoners of conscience"; I think at least at some point we were the only EU country with any of those.
09:01:10 <fizzie> Something to be proud of.
09:01:19 <Vorpal> elliott, yep. However eval scares me so I used printf -v "$1" hello for the same effect
09:01:29 <elliott> Vorpal: but that's what eval is _for_ :)
09:01:35 <elliott> Vorpal: but did you do that local trick then for the return?
09:01:47 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I used local in the caller I believe
09:01:54 <elliott> return() { local var=$(shift); eval \$$var=\$*; }
09:02:08 <elliott> recvr() { local ret; lol ret; echo $ret }
09:02:16 <Vorpal> elliott, however if the variable ret happens to be a local variable in lol() as well you are fucked :P
09:02:41 <elliott> Vorpal: hmm, clearly we need something that makes up a variable name for you.
09:02:47 <elliott> Vorpal: does sh have "uplevel"?
09:02:52 <elliott> i.e.: eval this code in the scope of my caller.
09:03:29 <Vorpal> elliott, one way would be to use a global variable. Since I wouldn't recommend recursion in shell script anyway it is probably just fine ;)
09:03:42 <Vorpal> well, exec recursion would be fine
09:03:59 <elliott> return() { ____return=$*; }
09:04:11 <Vorpal> elliott, forgot the quotes there
09:04:18 <elliott> Vorpal: variable assignment is special
09:04:27 <elliott> it doesn't get reinterpreted in command context
09:04:42 <Vorpal> haven't been doing shell scripting for quite a while
09:04:51 <elliott> let() { local ____return var=$(shift); "$@"; eval \$$var=\$____return }
09:04:56 <Vorpal> well apart from basic stuff
09:05:19 <Vorpal> elliott, wait what, let?
09:05:28 <elliott> yes. is that name already taken?
09:05:36 <elliott> Vorpal: to avoid the already-used-local-name issue :D
09:05:39 <Vorpal> elliott, let exists yes. Does math
09:06:20 <Vorpal> elliott, like: let resultvar 2+4
09:07:14 <Vorpal> elliott, in *bash* you can use one of these though: resultvar=$((2+4)) or (( resultvar = 2+4 ))
09:08:14 <Vorpal> as I said, it was quite a while since I did anything more advanced than simple automation in bash.
09:08:48 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
09:09:12 <Vorpal> that is one messed up sleep schedule
09:09:26 <Vorpal> unless he moved to another country recently
09:10:22 <elliott> does your memory leak like a sieve
09:10:29 <elliott> you KNOW oerjan is on the standard 25-hour sleep schedule
09:10:33 <elliott> i have pointed it out to you several times
09:10:43 <Vorpal> I thought he was trying to fix it?
09:10:50 <elliott> why would anyone want to do such a thing as that
09:11:15 <elliott> he has the perfect life, get up, irc and math, make lots of puns, then sleep when you get tired
09:11:35 <Vorpal> elliott, well... employers tend to have rather pronounced views about not getting to work when they expect you to.
09:11:41 <elliott> now to look at how much an old thinkpad costs on on ebay so that the prospect of installing linux again on this macbook air doesn't hurt as much
09:11:54 <elliott> Vorpal: oh come on, you _know_ oerjan doesn't work :)
09:12:10 <elliott> ebay is a ghost town. or maybe, the things i search for are ghosts.
09:12:13 <Vorpal> elliott, so what/who pays his bills?
09:12:21 <Vorpal> elliott, what are you searching for then?
09:12:32 <elliott> thinkpads! i didn't actually check before searching, there is actually things here
09:12:34 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, so what/who pays his bills?
09:12:40 <elliott> dunno, ask him, that's a personal question :P
09:13:08 <elliott> i do gather norway is one of those civilised countries with welfare
09:13:10 <Vorpal> elliott, a new thinkpad isn't *that* expensive. Unless you go for a w700ds or whatever the model name was.
09:13:14 <elliott> whatever the term is these days.
09:13:28 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah but i don't want a new one. they're all widescreen.
09:14:02 <elliott> "5x IBM Thinkpad T41 Spares Parts Job Lot #230"
09:14:09 <Vorpal> elliott, eh? Don't they look about the same still? Black slab kind of look. And still matte screens
09:14:11 <elliott> wonder if they just wiped the hd by mistake
09:14:18 <elliott> Vorpal: the design has changed to be more ugly :
09:14:30 <elliott> 1 turns on but has a smashed screen but i can vaguely see that it is managing its way into the bios
09:14:30 <elliott> 1 turns on and goes into the bios, the display has a red tint which gradually fades
09:14:30 <elliott> 1 has no screen and no power
09:14:30 <elliott> 2 turn on but display nothing both screens look undamaged but no guarantees as they havent been tested
09:14:41 <elliott> "All are missing batterys, HDD\'s and HDD caddys unless otherwise stated "
09:15:06 <elliott> "IBM T42 Thinkpad Laptop - 1.7Ghz / 1Gb Ram / DVD / WiFi" £119. who the fuck is going to pay £119 for that?
09:15:26 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway most thinkpads (probably excluding the w700ds again) will have rather bad colour reproduction. They are business machines after all. Same goes for the built in speakers. Other than that they will be better than most other brands.
09:15:44 <elliott> i just want something that lets me install linux on it over and over again without crying :D
09:16:03 <elliott> this is mostly just to shut my inner voice up, i'll break down and see about getting some other distro to work on this soon.
09:16:07 <elliott> but it's a scary prospect.
09:16:19 <Vorpal> elliott, what was the issue with getting it to run on the macbook?
09:16:39 <elliott> the macbook air is picky about what it boots. beyond that, drivers drivers drivers.
09:17:04 <elliott> the hardware is perfect, everything else about this machine sucks :(
09:17:21 <Vorpal> elliott, it was a brand new model then iirc? With Linux, support tends to improve over time.
09:17:38 <elliott> Vorpal: well it was a few months old. and mostly similar to the previous model and macbook pros.
09:17:42 <elliott> mostly similar = basically identical
09:17:46 <elliott> These systems are fast. They boot up 57% faster, and they shut down in 5 seconds." --lenovo.com
09:17:50 <elliott> WOW!!! SHUTS DOWN IN 5 SECONDS!!
09:18:00 <elliott> here i am thinking that systems should _boot_ in 5 seconds
09:18:11 <elliott> but no. shutting down: that is what we do on our laptops.
09:18:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I assume that means windows 7 will at most take 5 seconds to shut down. No matter what
09:18:22 <Vorpal> including when installing a service pack
09:18:45 <Vorpal> elliott, btw, does it say 57% faster *than what*
09:18:48 <elliott> http://www.lenovo.com/images/products/professional-grade/thinkpad/x-series/960x430_hero_x201.jpg wow, they managed to make the x series ugly :/
09:18:53 <elliott> it's meant to be a slab, not a... flob :(
09:18:58 <elliott> Vorpal: than the previous model, i guess
09:19:07 <elliott> "Epic battery life" are you serious
09:19:12 <elliott> i thought this was a business machine
09:19:16 <elliott> yeah, fuck getting a new one :D
09:19:19 <Vorpal> elliott, that link: what is wrong with that?
09:19:28 <elliott> Vorpal: that looks like a slab to you?!
09:19:34 <elliott> it's got ridges and twiddles up the wazoo.
09:19:48 <elliott> compare: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2141/2271406891_a51f3320e7.jpg
09:19:50 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean the palm rest looks curved?
09:20:15 <elliott> ughh, i forgot thinkpads have the fn key in a stupid place
09:20:25 <Vorpal> elliott, same as macs have?
09:20:37 <elliott> it makes ctrl incredibly awkward to press
09:20:47 <elliott> or, more often, move my hand so my thumb is over it
09:20:49 <Vorpal> elliott, come on, you get used to it fairly quickly. I have no problems reaching either key
09:20:59 <elliott> pressing ctrl is still a pain imo
09:21:04 <elliott> "IBM Lenovo ThinkPad keyboard trackpoint tip nipple hat"
09:21:21 <elliott> "hi and welcome to my auction
09:21:21 <elliott> this advert is for spare parts from a IBM THINKPAD I SERIES TYPE 1161
09:21:21 <elliott> Do not use the buy it now as you will not recieve anything!!!"
09:21:32 <elliott> GREAT WAY TO LOOK CHEAP, FUCKER
09:21:41 <elliott> and demand they give me the parts
09:21:59 <elliott> 99p to irritate some sleazy dbag: worth it??
09:22:16 <elliott> also dear god. what happened to people being able to type and spell.
09:22:22 <Vorpal> elliott, did you see that line from a combat report in df I posted yesterday?
09:22:31 <elliott> yes, actually just today i lost it when itw as first said
09:23:41 <Vorpal> elliott, btw there is a column on the health overview screen for sensor nerves and one for motor nerves. Presumably your dwarfs can get damage to those.
09:23:44 <elliott> hmm hmm window managers hmm
09:24:01 <elliott> using ion3 until the sun goes cold would maximise my old-fartiness.
09:24:31 <elliott> otoh, ratpoison or wmii or xmonad is probably a better choice :P
09:24:43 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess that depends on what you want. You could use that port of the plan9 window manager I guess
09:25:10 <elliott> Vorpal: no, i want something automatic. i decided that traditional window management is unusable for me after creating the following scene without realising it: http://ompldr.org/vODFxYg
09:25:16 <elliott> also, I've used it, it's ... fine
09:25:19 <elliott> it's exactly like plan 9's wm
09:25:34 <elliott> i never thought of rio as the greatest part of plan 9 ever so, yeah, it's... not that interesting
09:25:35 <Vorpal> elliott, quite. But it lacks the rest of plan9 around it.
09:25:48 <elliott> less talking about plan 9, more gawping at how my taskbar couldn't even fit an ellipsis in :D
09:25:56 <Vorpal> so I was thinking interactions with windows would work less well in the port
09:26:09 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: no, i want something automatic. i decided that traditional window management is unusable for me after creating the following scene without realising it: http://ompldr.org/vODFxYg <-- chrome has tabs I think
09:26:27 <elliott> Vorpal: i open new windows according to a proprietary trade secret algorithm
09:26:36 <elliott> (i open new windows when i feel like they would disrupt my tabs :D)
09:26:44 <Vorpal> elliott, and I instead have three rows of tabs in firefox.
09:26:49 <elliott> Vorpal: having all that in one window would be... interesting
09:26:51 <elliott> it would be about 10 rows.
09:27:07 <elliott> anyway i like to have pages BEHIND other pages that i can just click to, my browsing isn't really optimised for efficiency
09:27:14 <elliott> just to maximise the amount of things i can do to get more things to appear
09:27:18 <Vorpal> elliott, right. I seldom reach that. Firefox has a great built in feature to help you keep the tab count lower than that
09:27:23 <Vorpal> it is called "lagging to hell"
09:27:29 <elliott> yeah, that's quite a feature
09:28:06 <elliott> Vorpal: i have a feeling tiling wms might not work for me either though :/
09:28:13 <elliott> which is why i was thinking ratpoison, that's more a ... hiding wm
09:28:27 <elliott> out of sight, out of mind, still taking up two thirds of your ram
09:28:34 <elliott> Vorpal: basically it doesn't automatically tile
09:28:39 <elliott> it just replaces the current frame with the new one when you create/focus
09:28:44 <elliott> and all tiling is manual if you really want it
09:28:57 <elliott> in fact it's exactly screen for X
09:29:19 <fizzie> I know a person (whose nick matches the regexs /^inei/ and /ros$/) who -- instead of bookmarks or even a horrible set of tabs -- keeps a huge set of pages in "restore previous session" prompt windows, *nested* something like eight levels deep.
09:29:35 <Vorpal> elliott, so... everything is a full screen app unless you really really want to do some arcane key strokes to split the screen?
09:29:39 <elliott> i can't believe that even works fizzie
09:29:44 <elliott> Vorpal: "arcane"; it's like C-t h or something
09:30:00 <fizzie> elliott: I couldn't believe it either, and apparently it broken down quite badly when the nesting level got to high single-digits.
09:30:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, I didn't know you could have more than one set of tabs to be restored...
09:30:12 <elliott> fizzie: we need screenshots of this. blurred if necessary.
09:30:20 <Vorpal> unless it isn't firefox?
09:30:22 <elliott> Vorpal: presumably he just kills firefox with the restoring thing still open
09:30:25 <elliott> so that it counts as a tab to restore
09:30:30 <elliott> then he can restore that tab to see more
09:30:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: It was Firefox, yes; and you can only have them by forcibly terminating it so that there's still the restore-session tab pending.
09:30:58 <elliott> ineiros: can...can i come to finland and see the horror
09:31:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm sure there is some sort of extension to do this more cleanly...
09:31:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, I thought it quite bizarroid too.
09:32:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, so you can get a restore session tab listed in the restore session tab? How.... weird...
09:33:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, also I assume reaching one from the innermost nesting level will be quite messy
09:33:03 <elliott> i'm surprised it doesn't like
09:33:16 <elliott> i'm surprised it keeps that list with it
09:33:42 <fizzie> Manufactured example: http://users.ics.tkk.fi/htkallas/restore-restore.png
09:34:09 <fizzie> It would be even nicer if it'd expand the "restore session" in that list so that you'd get a tree-like thing.
09:34:29 <fizzie> But it indeed kept the list; I got my original set of tabs back.
09:34:31 <elliott> I hope ineiros feels the embarrassment every time he uses it.
09:34:42 <elliott> fizzie: Please inform me of how ineiros came to use such an insane system.
09:34:54 <elliott> Did he just kill Firefox one day with a restore session thing open, re-opened it and went "oh hey, this is convenient"?
09:35:12 <fizzie> I think he had to flatten out the thing after Firefox went into some sort of "closing a tab takes 15 seconds" mode due to all the... something.
09:35:17 <Vorpal> I wonder if df has some way to quickly jump to a specific z level. Some sort of bookmark or such. Considering that it's sub-surface is much deeper than minecraft the scrolling with > and < can get tedious when you need to control activities near surface and mining very deep at the same time
09:35:21 <fizzie> I don't know the genesis of the awesome, unfortunately.
09:35:37 <elliott> Vorpal: But then you couldn't have the Room Outside of Space!
09:35:51 <elliott> fizzie: That awesome WM thing you use, can it do tabbing?
09:35:59 <elliott> Vorpal: cf. Boatmurdered (or was it Syrupleaf? It was one of them!)
09:36:26 <Vorpal> elliott, okay. I looked a bit at them, but I haven't read the whole things. So quick summary perhaps?
09:36:47 <elliott> Vorpal: It's a room that's ~impossible to find due to having no paths to it.
09:37:08 <Vorpal> elliott, you can still find it by just going through each z level though
09:37:15 <fizzie> elliott: There's a lua extension called "tabulous" that adds some sort of tabbing thing, but I haven't tried it out.
09:37:51 <Vorpal> elliott, and if anyone is in it, you can just bring up the unit screen (u), select the unit (arrow keys), then focus on it (c).
09:38:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, what wm do you use btw?
09:38:12 <fizzie> Not sure if I'd really recommend Awesome; it's not my favouritest thing ever. I just can't be motivated to switch again.
09:38:13 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, you can still find it by just going through each z level though
09:38:16 <elliott> There were ridiculous numbers of them.
09:38:39 <elliott> Vorpal: BTW, the thing ended with the single remaining living dwarf in the Room Outside of Space.
09:38:46 <Vorpal> elliott, some 200 or so I'd guess? Probably more if there are mountains on the map.
09:38:49 <elliott> Vorpal: With enough food to last for quite a while.
09:38:51 <elliott> Vorpal: It never actually ended.
09:39:01 <Vorpal> I have about 200 I *guess* and I'm in fairly flat terrain
09:39:04 <elliott> Also, remember that there's still the x/z to traverse.
09:39:27 <Vorpal> elliott, true, but there is a overview map in one pane (can be enabled/disabled with tab)
09:39:33 <elliott> Vorpal: (The single remaining dwarf, that is, after the two stats-are-completely-off-the-charts megadwarves were put in a room to battle it out to the death.)
09:40:07 <elliott> (It ended with the now-armless HolisticDetective (I think?) BITING Nemo to death.)
09:40:28 <elliott> And then HolisticDetective I think died on account of having very few limbs.
09:40:36 <Vorpal> elliott, hm that remaining dwarf... if it stayed alive until the next wave of immigrants...
09:41:00 <elliott> Vorpal: I think everyone was quite sick of the fortress at that point :P
09:41:05 <Vorpal> oh and I think mixed climate embarkments are bugged
09:41:22 <Vorpal> warm climates should not freeze during winter. Temperate should
09:41:23 <elliott> When you not only have a massive superweapon that you activate, but then ALSO build a TRIBUTE to those who died in its activation which ITSELF is an even BIGGER superweapon, and then activate THAT...
09:41:33 <elliott> I think they won Dwarf Fortress :P
09:41:37 <Vorpal> my fort is just over a boundary. However the whole map does freeze
09:42:44 <elliott> man... i think i've never made so many links in my life
09:42:51 <elliott> (i'm reading over the explanation of @ I wrote)
09:43:07 <elliott> ok it's only 12 links. but it looks like more.
09:45:33 <elliott> fizzie: You should have used this font on that CRT you overclocked: http://www.timeguy.com/cradek/01128220822
09:45:52 <elliott> https://github.com/patrickhaller/no-wm ;; maybe i'll just ditch WMs entirely
09:49:03 <elliott> i suppose i should get a desktop.
09:49:09 <elliott> can't use this laptop all the time.
09:50:16 <Vorpal> you could attach screen, keyboard and monitor to it
09:50:25 <Vorpal> elliott, besides, what about your imac?
09:50:29 <elliott> <Vorpal> you could attach screen, keyboard and monitor to it
09:50:38 <Vorpal> oh wait, was it the air?
09:50:51 <elliott> that's true. it would become a desktop with a moderate amount of ram, a slow-ish cpu, not much disk space (albeit ssd),
09:50:57 <elliott> and with a painful installation process for linux
09:51:06 <elliott> not that appealing, the 13" screen doesn't bother me :)
09:51:28 <elliott> Vorpal: the imac is ok but it suffers the same linux-hatred problem and it's ... really pretty damn slow
09:51:31 <elliott> it's five years old, after all
09:51:37 <Vorpal> elliott, you very quickly get used to larger screen sizes. 24" is nice. Lots of space for stuff
09:51:52 <elliott> well i used a 20" with the imac and that's pretty big if you ask me :)
09:52:02 <elliott> but actually i've adapted fine to smaller screens. it's the dpi.
09:52:44 <elliott> Vorpal: and ofc a too-large screen is pretty unergonomic.
09:52:59 <elliott> as well as annoying: maximised browser window on too-large screen = long text line is long
09:54:54 <Vorpal> of course, but a large screen mean I don't have to maximise the browser window
09:56:01 <elliott> Vorpal: and with a tiling wm? :)
09:56:21 <elliott> i mean you can't always have enough auxiliary windows to pollute your screen with to make it size out right.
09:56:26 <elliott> arguably you should be able to like
09:56:32 <elliott> but it's hard to figure out how to make that work smoothly
09:56:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't use a tiling one however. I'm boring and just use metacity
09:57:02 <elliott> yes, well, metacity is failing me :)
09:57:12 <elliott> Vorpal: now watch as i unravel what i really want in a wm, and end up with @
09:58:06 <elliott> no but, there is no way i will get @ written without a comfortable linux setup to do it in.
09:58:42 <elliott> Vorpal: btw the fact that i am small and short influences my taste in monitors :D
09:58:52 <elliott> 24" would literally be bad for my neck.
09:59:19 <ineiros> elliott: I have the problem that I open far more tabs than I can actually read or "process" correctly. Sometimes it happens that Firefox crashes when I have 150 tabs open, 10 of which are Youtube. Then I just want to quickly check some page, it sometimes happens that I leave the "Restore session" there for another day.
09:59:41 <elliott> fizzie: I feel like you may have exaggerated this "10 levels deep restore session organisation" thing.
09:59:42 <ineiros> elliott: And sometimes this happens two, three, four or more times in a row. :P
09:59:59 <elliott> ineiros: It's probably Flash doing the crashing.
10:00:04 <elliott> It's an exceedingly crashy piece of software.
10:00:06 <Vorpal> and I'm large and need to put my 24" at the max height the monitor stand can extend to make it comfortable :P
10:00:06 <ineiros> elliott: And then I suddenly have a total of ~1000 tabs waiting for me in ~10 layers.
10:00:11 <elliott> I think there's an about:config thing to sandbox all plugins that you might want to try.
10:00:22 <ineiros> elliott: Yes, mostly Flash. It's now disabled in my Firefox.
10:00:32 <elliott> Like I've said before, there needs to be a browser that makes no distinction between tabs and history.
10:00:45 <elliott> Recent stuff is on the bottom (sidebar list), older stuff is further up.
10:00:48 <elliott> Stuff gets unloaded automatically.
10:01:22 <elliott> Vorpal: i wonder how small they make ips displays :)
10:01:35 <elliott> that was only barely a joke
10:01:41 <elliott> although ips is a bit out of my price range :D
10:01:46 <Vorpal> elliott, so you want that sort of colour reproduction?
10:02:09 <elliott> well it doesn't feel right to be able to change the colour of something by dragging it to the bottom of my screen.
10:02:30 <Vorpal> elliott, then just forget thinkpad :P
10:02:31 <elliott> also tn displays tend to be made crappily in general IME :)
10:02:37 <elliott> Vorpal: that's a laptop :P
10:03:27 <Vorpal> elliott, my TN desktop monitor doesn't do heavy colour shifting
10:03:29 <elliott> when i have problems with my internet connection, call up tech support
10:03:33 <elliott> "go to control panel" "what?"
10:03:44 <elliott> "...ok, press the windows key on your keyboard"
10:03:51 <elliott> "i don't have one of those. do you mean F994?"
10:04:04 <Vorpal> elliott, presumably they mean the blinken lights control panel :P
10:04:07 <elliott> "...sir, what computer do you use?"
10:04:27 <elliott> (vax model number shamelessly stolen from wikipedia)
10:04:52 -!- cheater00 has joined.
10:05:37 <elliott> another idea for that tabs=history browser: when you move away from a tab, it hides it and holds it ransom for 24 hours
10:07:22 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
10:08:21 <Vorpal> elliott, how would this work with ajaxy stuff?
10:08:34 <elliott> things like gmail encode it into the url nowadays
10:08:57 <elliott> it'd only unload a tab if you don't click it for like hours
10:08:58 <Vorpal> elliott, what about stuff like bank websites. Where you want to close everything when you log out.
10:11:07 <fizzie> The VT510 I had at one point could do a 50-line 132-column thing.
10:11:16 <fizzie> Also a hardware status line.
10:11:45 <fizzie> And a built-in terminal-side calculator thing with line-drawing graphics. (It could paste the result as if you typed it.)
10:12:43 <Vorpal> that reminds me of computer connected bar code scanners. Often they just act like keyboards
10:12:53 <Vorpal> to the computer that is
10:13:18 <elliott> interfaces suck. environments suck. society sucks. people suck. things suck.
10:13:30 <elliott> tomorrow I'll be back down at the bottom and not even know it
10:13:38 <elliott> until the suck starts again
10:14:28 <Vorpal> I wonder how practical magma forges would be in real life. Probably not very
10:15:49 <elliott> maybe i really should buy a vax
10:15:53 <elliott> and release @ for vax only
10:16:11 <Vorpal> why not some other unusual system
10:16:13 <elliott> Vorpal: they have a lot of instructions, so i can pick only the ones i like, and use those.
10:16:26 <Vorpal> elliott, CISC or RISC?
10:16:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very CISC.
10:16:48 <elliott> It *inspired* RISC because of how many goddamn instructions it had.
10:17:00 <elliott> (And most of them were slower than doing their effect by hand :P)
10:17:07 <Vorpal> elliott, come on a lot of RISC have lots of instructions
10:17:11 <elliott> Vorpal: (Literally, VAX is basically what caused RISC to be created :P)
10:17:33 <elliott> fucking hell i don't mean vax the vacuum cleaners google
10:17:37 <elliott> let fucking google sgjdkjfsghldfg
10:18:06 <Vorpal> elliott, the thing about RISC is that they are really load-store architectures. Sometimes with a lot of instructions.
10:18:13 <elliott> Vorpal: can't find a figure of how many instructions a vax had
10:18:35 <elliott> Vorpal: it would be fun to have an ISA where it read like VLIWs
10:18:40 <elliott> and every VLIW was a small functional program
10:18:45 <elliott> taking in registers and spitting out new ones, or something
10:19:01 <Vorpal> I suspect it would be even slower than IA64
10:19:41 <elliott> itanium isn't exactly slow
10:19:47 <elliott> it's popular in dem soopercomputers
10:20:17 <Vorpal> elliott, you remember that it become a commercial failure due to lack of performance?
10:20:31 <elliott> hmm, an itanium desktop would be fun
10:20:36 <elliott> Vorpal: An Itanium-based computer first appeared on list of the TOP500 supercomputers in November 2001.[34] The best position ever achieved by an Itanium 2 based system in the list was #2, achieved in June 2004, when Thunder (LLNL) entered the list with an Rmax of 19.94 Teraflops. In November 2004, Columbia entered the list at #2 with 51.8 Teraflops, and there was at least one Itanium-based computer in the top 10 from then until June 2007. The pe
10:20:36 <elliott> ak number of Itanium-based machines on the list occurred in the November 2004 list, at 84 systems (16.8%); by June 2010, this had dropped to five systems (1%).[72]
10:20:38 <Vorpal> elliott, they should have called it something else than itanium then
10:22:59 <elliott> i need to get @ bootstrapped :(
10:23:10 <elliott> i.e. write a full interpreter in asm and then write a full compiler in that language. bleh.
10:23:17 <elliott> the first bit, is the bit I don't look forward to.
10:23:27 <elliott> also i need the persistence layer at the same point.
10:23:54 <Vorpal> elliott, why not do it in another language than asm? You could cross compiler for that in a high level language?
10:24:19 <elliott> Vorpal: like what? name a high-level language with a compiler that spits out freestanding machine code that will plug in to other asm cleanly
10:24:41 <elliott> heck, even dropping the high-level requirement, the only player is C, and even that's not perfect. plus, you know, writing interpreters in C isn't a piece of cake either
10:25:03 <Vorpal> elliott, better than x86 asm I'd say
10:25:21 <elliott> yeah. but x86 asm is at least more "fun".
10:25:39 <elliott> i suppose i could bootstrap an implementation on linux, then somehow port that over. but that actually sounds very painful.
10:25:44 <Vorpal> elliott, that is fun as in the redirect from fun on the df wiki to the article about losing :P
10:26:31 <elliott> no, no, it's winning. writing interpreters in freestanding x86 asm is exactly what charlie sheen would do in this situation.
10:27:00 <elliott> -ChanServ- Registered : Sep 04 18:06:23 2004 (6 years, 29 weeks, 5 days, 16:20:20 ago)
10:27:00 <elliott> -ChanServ- Last used : Mar 14 17:08:56 2007 (4 years, 2 weeks, 3 days, 17:17:47 ago)
10:27:52 <Vorpal> elliott, if you do a group registration you could probably take it over :P
10:28:00 <elliott> yesssssssssssssssssssssssssss
10:28:07 <elliott> that sounds productive and worthwhile, who wants to be my groupie
10:32:39 <elliott> number of chrome windows just decreased by one to 24
10:33:02 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc firefox 4 allows you to group tabs or something.
10:33:55 <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 150K 2011-03-31 11:33 logs.sqlite3
10:34:17 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. Copy cat of fizzie eh?
10:34:26 <fizzie> We saw your user name.
10:34:36 <Vorpal> we saw that you used sql
10:34:47 <elliott> ch2: did anything happen? I think that nothing happened.
10:35:50 <elliott> oh now this will horrify Vorpal
10:35:50 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_sSnLmJN78
10:38:47 <elliott> I wonder if that That Bassett Disaster guy is anyone from here...
10:39:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
10:42:35 <elliott> Vorpal: You saw nothing, k?
10:42:48 <Vorpal> elliott, I saw that line
10:42:52 <Vorpal> <elliott> -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 150K 2011-03-31 11:33 logs.sqlite3
10:42:59 <Vorpal> elliott, what was it about?
10:43:20 <elliott> FUCK my hands keep slipping
10:43:24 <Vorpal> I mean, sure a mispasted line, but why are you acting like this about it
10:43:53 <Vorpal> elliott, also I don't believe that. You said "<elliott> FUCK my hands keep slipping" the same second as those two lines above it
10:44:10 <elliott> Vorpal: THEY SLIPPED OUT "FUCK MY HANDS KEEP SLIPPING" TOO!!!!!
10:44:16 <Vorpal> which is just improbable if you realised *after*
10:44:33 <elliott> I CAN'T BELIEVE THEY SPONTANEOUSLY TYPED THAT RANDOMLY EITHER
10:46:52 <elliott> Hmm. @ actually can't compile EVERYTHING at execution time.
10:48:43 <Vorpal> elliott, of course not. The compiler itself needs to be pre-compiled. Or run by an interpreter during boot (possibly made to compile itself, then switching over to that compiled one)
10:48:56 <elliott> The compiler and the persistence layer, to be precise.
10:49:16 <elliott> An interpreter isn't an option; the language will evolve with the system, and like hell am I going to keep an asm interpreter up to date with an Advanced Compiler(TM).
10:49:16 <Vorpal> elliott, probably also the memory allocation, but that may be in the persistence layer
10:49:41 <elliott> If you just mean "how to decide what parts of disk to cache in memory", then yeah, persistence layer.
10:49:42 <Vorpal> elliott, well, allocating buffers for DMA for example.
10:49:59 <elliott> If you mean "how objects are allocated in the abstract address space to be persisted on disk", well, that's just part of the object model.
10:50:06 <elliott> Which is part of the runtime.
10:50:09 <elliott> Which is tied to the compiler.
10:50:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean when using DMA for the network card and so on
10:50:29 <Vorpal> elliott, or buffers for other hardware communication
10:50:35 <elliott> Right. Well, it's not like DMA things will be freed very often. :P
10:50:47 <Vorpal> elliott, doesn't USB do DMA?
10:51:02 <Vorpal> sadly firewire is mostly dead
10:51:02 <elliott> Maybe. But the precompiled code isn't going to be using DMA.
10:51:14 <Vorpal> and SATA definitely uses DMA
10:51:15 <elliott> Its only job will be to compile the startup code and execute that.
10:52:02 <elliott> Vorpal: re: firewire: THUNDERBOOOOOLT
10:52:04 <Vorpal> elliott, besides even for things that don't use DMA you still need buffers quite often. Stuff like buffers for TCP communication.
10:52:13 <elliott> Vorpal: And? Those are objects.
10:52:49 <Vorpal> elliott, but it would be useless to persist those on disks. For a start during a reboot the tcp connection would time out.
10:53:13 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, purely as an optimisation the objects could hint in their metadata that persisting them is pointless.
10:53:18 <elliott> But if they do get persisted, it's no big deal.
10:53:19 <Vorpal> elliott, if a computer is turned off, you can't persist the whole internet's state against you. :P
10:53:52 <Vorpal> So you will have to deal with the lack of persistence as soon as you involve network communication
10:53:59 <elliott> (Remember that @ is designed for SSDs. Well, SSDs with even better write-cycle lifetime than the current generation SSDs.)
10:54:07 <elliott> Sockets die when you wake your computer up, not that complicated.
10:55:09 <Vorpal> elliott, btw what about transactions? If it isn't a laptop and you get a power outage, without an ups...
10:55:36 <Vorpal> elliott, think a database that wants to be sure it's objects won't be lost.
10:55:51 <Vorpal> in case of a power outage, or fatal PSU failure or whatever
10:56:08 <elliott> Vorpal: well, "object writes" are (in theory) atomic.
10:56:16 <elliott> so it'll just get the last persisted thing.
10:57:09 <Vorpal> elliott, well right, but a database won't be happy with that. When COMMIT; in SQL (and the equiv in other types of databases) succeed there should be no way that the data could be lost after.
10:57:23 <elliott> so it tells the persistence layer to commit it.
10:57:29 <elliott> if the machine crashes while that's happening, well, what the fuck can you do?
10:57:45 <elliott> just because some sql server developer says that COMMIT; means that things will NEVER EVER GET LOST doesn't stop physics :)
10:58:06 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed. The harddrive could catch fire or such
10:58:29 <elliott> who likes sql anyway, it sucks
10:58:54 <Vorpal> elliott, right. Elliott "-rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 150K 2011-03-31 11:33 logs.sqlite3" Hird.
10:59:04 <elliott> I believe I said, "nothing happened"?
10:59:11 <elliott> Anyway that was just a really bad typo for "hi there everyone".
10:59:36 <Vorpal> elliott, ch2 is a bot as far as I can tell :P
10:59:52 <elliott> I would ask it how it felt about that accusation but I'd have to open logs.sqlite3 to see its reply.
11:00:10 <Vorpal> elliott, aha, so that is what the file is for :P
11:01:09 <elliott> I think it is clear that Vorpal knows not of what he talks.
11:02:19 <elliott> glogbot: WHAT IS YOUR OPINIONS
11:02:45 <fizzie> fungot: You're the extroverted one, what do you think?
11:02:46 <fungot> fizzie: i believe it anyway. it doesn't
11:03:18 <fungot> elliott: x y z))? the number one?"
11:03:32 <elliott> Vorpal: ch2 has aspirations, you know!
11:06:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Your rampant disbelief.
11:08:06 <fizzie> His rampart disbelieve.
11:08:46 <fizzie> Heh. there's a Rampart port in the PlayStation Network thing.
11:09:03 <elliott> fizzie: So did that C128 ever get an IPv6 stack running?
11:10:03 <fizzie> It hasn't really been used much; doing anything with it involves too much hardware, and somehow hardware makes me feel queasy.
11:10:11 <fizzie> All those cables and things, ugh.
11:10:23 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:10:25 <fizzie> We really should get rid of all the physical nonsense.
11:11:36 <elliott> fizzie: So it doesn't do IPv6?
11:12:17 <fizzie> It doesn't really do any sort of networking at all; I don't have the hardware.
11:17:07 <elliott> [23:50:53] -!- navigator [~andreou@ppp5.ee.teiath.gr] has quit ["[BX] Occifer, I'm not as think as you stoned I am!"]
11:17:07 <elliott> [23:56:30] -!- IcemanX [Iceman@62.103.251.206] has joined #esoteric
11:17:07 <elliott> [23:56:54] < IcemanX> Have you seen navigator today?
11:18:08 <ais523> meanwhile, according to Slashdot, Samsung has been installing keyloggers on new laptops it sells, in order to collect usage statistics
11:18:14 <ais523> how can they possibly have thought that was a good idea?
11:18:30 <fizzie> Also according to a-place-I-forgot.
11:18:41 <fizzie> http://www.networkworld.com/newsletters/sec/2011/040411sec1.html
11:18:52 <elliott> is it just me, or does slashdot look quite pland nowadays?
11:18:56 <fizzie> (Full disclosure: link courtesy of 'ros.)
11:19:11 <elliott> to be really sure, we should check el reg
11:19:37 <elliott> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/30/samsung_imitating_sony/
11:19:42 <elliott> "Updated: denied by Samsung"
11:19:45 <elliott> ais523: it's obviously false then
11:19:52 <elliott> Update Samsung has issued a brief denial, in which it said the researcher has identified an innocuous directory as the keylogger in error. Its statement says that the researcher's security program "mistook a folder created by Microsoft Live Application for a key logging software, during a virus scan.". Looks like a game of claim and counter-claim is on the cards. ®
11:20:04 <ais523> according to Slashdot, they denied it, and then admitted it later
11:20:14 <elliott> ais523: I DON'T SEE THAT ON THE REG ARTICLE
11:21:50 <fizzie> Or they might have denied it a third time.
11:22:00 <elliott> "Book Review: The Art of Computer Programming. Volume 4A: Combinatorial Algorithm"
11:22:09 <elliott> we don't have time for reviews! we have to convince knuth to release the next volumes!
11:22:19 <elliott> he's 73 already, there is no time to waste!
11:22:25 <ais523> he has to write them first
11:22:32 <elliott> HE HAS TO WRITE THEM FASTER
11:22:52 <elliott> he has to write 4B, 4C, maybe 4D, and 5, 6 and 7
11:22:58 <fizzie> Some dude has "confirmed" it's a false-positive at http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/samsung-keylogger-is-a-gfi-vipre-antivirus-false-positive/12128 by creating a similarly named empty folder.
11:23:15 <elliott> Don't know about you, but I think Knuth is remarkably optimistic about his life span.
11:23:21 <impomatic> I'm still waiting for Knuth's book on compilers which he promise to write after TAOCP! :-(
11:23:29 <elliott> impomatic: Keep dreaming :P
11:24:11 <impomatic> I'm working on my Forth again today after going off on a tangent for a few days :-)
11:24:44 <fizzie> Volume 5: estimated to be ready in 2020.
11:24:54 <impomatic> Not possible with 8086. Maybe with Z80.
11:25:12 <elliott> speaking of prolific old people, I wonder how many hours of film Attenborough's documentaries total up to
11:25:40 <fizzie> And isn't the "book on compilers" in fact volume 7 of TAOCP?
11:27:40 -!- FireFly has joined.
11:36:27 <elliott> Vorpal: "This laptop is in pretty poor condition. [...] It is in Great Condition." --eBay
11:37:07 <elliott> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:560E there's one of these for sale, like a time machine!
11:37:33 <elliott> " Boots up, XP loads, Microsoft Office loaded and working but still being sold For Parts and Not Working."
11:42:50 <elliott> ...wish gentoo did things like "support non-glibc libcs" and "support static linking the system" so that it wasn't a pointless waste of time
11:43:17 -!- cheater- has joined.
11:44:28 -!- ais523_ has joined.
11:44:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services).
11:44:31 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
11:45:43 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
11:52:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
11:55:33 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:59:02 -!- cheater99 has joined.
11:59:18 <elliott> I'M TRYING OUT ZSH AGAIN WHYYY
11:59:43 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
11:59:52 <Phantom_Hoover> THE ALLURE OF A SHELL IN WHICH A FULL HTTPD CAN BE WRITTEN WITH ONLY THE BUILTINS IS TOO GREAT
12:00:55 <elliott> I set on the "scroll completions with arrow keys" thing and DO NOT WANT
12:01:31 <elliott> Also, fuck, this machine needs a better name than elliott-MacBookAir.
12:01:36 <Phantom_Hoover> (I switched to zsh in a moment of madness and now I'm hooked.)
12:01:38 <elliott> What's really really thin.
12:01:43 <elliott> (I'm not going to call my computer "anorexic".)
12:03:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: HOW MANY LINES DOES YOUR PROMPT HAVE
12:05:41 <fizzie> My PS1 is "\u@\h:\w$ " -- I'm such a lame-o. (A long time ago I had a multi-line colored prompt with all kinds of djiggamajigs in it.)
12:05:55 <elliott> fizzie: That's BASH TALK, those escapes are.
12:06:01 <Phantom_Hoover> IT TAKES UP 2/3 OF THE LINE IF I'M IN Programs/PlanetoidMapGenerator, BUT THAT'S AN EXTREME CASE
12:06:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
12:06:17 <Phantom_Hoover> THERE'S LESS FREE SPACE, ACTUALLY, BUT THE CLOCK DISAPPEARS IF I OVERWRITE IT
12:06:27 <elliott> I like how tab at the start of a line in zsh inserts a literal tab rather than listing the directories to cd to.
12:06:36 <elliott> Because, yay, literal tabs! I enter them in the shell all the time!
12:06:58 <fizzie> Tab on an empty line here: "Display all 5218 possibilities? (y or n)"
12:07:05 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, that's also so-useful. :p
12:07:32 <elliott> zsh has that nice thing where "cd foo bar" replaces foo with bar in the current path. I'm not quite sure what that's useful for, but it must be something.
12:07:49 <elliott> Also the "type a directory name to cd there"; that's undoubtedly nice.
12:08:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WHAT KIND OF SHELL DOESN'T
12:08:04 <fizzie> Well, you never know when you want to run akonadi_nepomuktag_resource, but have forgotten what letter it started iwth.
12:08:26 <elliott> ┌┌(elliott@elliott-MacBookAir)┌(85/pts/25)┌(01:08pm:03/31/11)┌-
12:08:39 <elliott> Jesus some people have bad taste.
12:08:55 <elliott> █▓▒░elliott@elliott-MacBookAir░▒▓██▓▒░ Thu Mar 31 01:08:40pm
12:09:01 <elliott> You can't see it, but there's a colour gradient there too.
12:09:14 <elliott> [Thu 11/03/31 13:09 BST][pts/25][x86_64/linux-gnu/2.6.35-28-generic][4.3.10]
12:09:15 <elliott> <elliott@elliott-MacBookAir:~>
12:09:17 <elliott> HOW MUCH INFORMATION DO YOU NEED
12:09:26 <elliott> DO YOU FORGET YOU'RE RUNNING A CERTAIN KERNEL VERSION EVERY PROMPT LINE
12:09:48 <fizzie> You should put in disk space, CPU, network and memory usage.
12:11:21 <fizzie> elliott: Here, take this: http://twitpic.com/zxipd
12:11:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: This is just
12:11:47 <fizzie> Notice the "you're in a Mercurial repo" symbol.
12:12:59 <fizzie> I'm not entirely sure why ± significes a Git repo.
12:15:28 <elliott> fizzie: It's a tree in nethack with decgraphics.
12:15:32 <elliott> git repos are made of trees.
12:15:55 <fizzie> I... guess that makes sense, somehow.
12:16:52 <fizzie> Oh, right, me so slow: it's of course that ---/+++ git logo.
12:18:11 <fizzie> Though I think it should then be ∓ and not ±. (And why does both "+-" and "-+" compose to ±? Okay, because the latter is in latin-1 and the other one is just some U+2213 nonsense, but still.)
12:18:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WHAT COLOURS ARE YOUR PROMPT
12:18:32 <elliott> Right now I'm toying with a stylish bold blue for my path and bold black (i.e. dark grey) for my %.
12:18:40 <fizzie> My leet-prompt used to have oodles of dark grey in-between the meaty parts.
12:18:43 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I just used a zshrc I got off the internet after a cursory examination to make sure it wasn't going to kill me or anything.
12:18:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: This makes you a: bad.
12:23:40 <elliott> My zsh prompt was "[username:path] %".
12:24:14 <elliott> Really, I've no idea why zsh doesn't just make the prompt a function.
12:24:18 <variable> [%! %F{blue}%n@%F{blue}%m %F{magenta}%30<...<%~ %F{red}%(?..!%?!)%f]%# --> PS1 :-\
12:24:40 <elliott> variable: EXCUSE ME, THIS IS A TALK FOR ADULT ZSH USERS
12:25:14 <variable> elliott: compatibility; there is a function that is run right before the prompt is set to change it
12:25:27 <variable> also - I use PS1, because I also use PS2 and PS3 :-)
12:25:27 <elliott> Compatibility, with that line, RIGHT :P
12:25:38 <elliott> Multiple-line prompts are like killing babies.
12:25:42 <elliott> This is an objective fact.
12:25:54 <elliott> TBH I dunno why I don't just install fish again :P
12:26:39 <variable> I need to patch zsh to correct to the longer instead of correcting to the equal
12:28:29 -!- ais523_ has joined.
12:28:53 <elliott> variable: that gives me lss16toppm here :-D
12:29:16 <variable> elliott: erm not tab complete - correction
12:29:22 <elliott> This manual page documents briefly the lss16toppm command.
12:29:22 <elliott> The lss16toppm utility converts an LSS-16 image to a PPM image.
12:29:28 <elliott> variable: zsh: command not found: lss
12:29:33 <elliott> variable: guess i didn't turn that on
12:30:11 <elliott> zsh: correct 'lss' to 'ss' [nyae]?
12:30:23 <elliott> Where's the "do it your fucking self" option :P
12:30:38 <fizzie> No command 'lss' found, did you mean: Command 'lsh' from package 'lsh-client' (universe) -- Command 'lsw' from package 'dwm-tools' (universe) -- Command 'lst' from package 'lustre-utils' (universe) -- Command 'less' from package 'less' (main) -- Command 'ls' from package 'coreutils' (main) -- Command 'lfs' from package 'lustre-utils' (universe) -- Command 'ass' from package 'irpas' (multiverse) -- Command 'lms' from package 'lms' (universe) -- Command 'les' fro
12:30:38 <fizzie> m package 'atm-tools' (universe) -- Command 'lvs' from package 'lvm2' (main) -- Command 'lssu' from package 'nilfs2-tools' (universe) -- Command 'gss' from package 'libgss-dev' (universe) -- Command 'ss' from package 'iproute' (main)
12:30:39 <variable> elliott: you *don't* want that
12:30:59 <elliott> variable: name a command that will nuke my disk without asking first when invoked with no arguments :-P
12:31:43 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112 ~% rn test.file
12:31:43 <fizzie> zsh: correct 'rn' to 'rm' [nyae]?
12:31:59 <elliott> Nyae sounds like olde english.
12:32:33 <variable> elliott: are you using suicide Linux?
12:32:45 <elliott> variable: That sounds like a fun distro.
12:32:59 <variable> elliott: have you heard of it before?
12:33:32 <variable> elliott: if you ever make a mistake when running it it runs rm -rf /*
12:33:43 <elliott> hmm, I should make an empty zsh line do an ls
12:35:33 <elliott> yeah, but I'm also trying to figure out how to show some kind of white-on-red status code in RPROMPT if the last command exited non-zero :)
12:36:42 <elliott> RPROMPT='$([ $? = 0 ] || echo "oh noes!!")'
12:36:43 <variable> "$*" contains the command just run
12:36:50 <ais523_> variable: I like the way you did /* there to allow for the fact that most version of rm need a special param to delete / itself (on the basis that doing so is never useful)
12:36:57 <elliott> Oops, that shows literally.
12:37:07 <elliott> ais523_: not true, it's useful for ... uhhh
12:37:15 <elliott> "After that you’ll need to define the Zsh RPROMPT variable:
12:37:15 <elliott> RPROMPT='$(battery_charge)'"
12:37:19 <elliott> or maybe it just has to be a function
12:37:21 <variable> elliott: erm %(?..!%?!) does what you just did with $?
12:37:33 <elliott> PUSHING NEW BOUNDARIES IN LINE NOISE
12:37:53 <ais523_> elliott: this is #esoteric, you need a /lot/ of justification for a statement like that
12:38:04 <variable> elliott: try precmd() { [[ -z "$@" ]] && ls }
12:38:42 <elliott> how do you do background? if %F is foreground
12:39:24 <elliott> i guess i could google it :)
12:39:50 <elliott> i could just use $bg[blah] i suppose
12:41:23 <elliott> RPROMPT='%(%K{red}%F{white}%B%?%b%f)'
12:41:23 <elliott> now it's just nothingness :(
12:41:32 <elliott> i guess that ? at the start is needed, but then it displays "K{red}"
12:42:01 <variable> elliott: for a white on read status code in propt
12:42:08 <elliott> variable: only if it's non-zero :)
12:42:17 <variable> elliott: yeah: I gave most of that to you
12:42:24 <elliott> yeah, i tried to adapt it :)
12:42:27 <elliott> i seem to have stuffed it up though
12:42:57 <elliott> except it's only showing when zero :) hmm...
12:43:54 <elliott> what /does/ that last bit do anyway, I can guess %? but the rest...
12:44:29 <variable> %? is the status. !! are literals the .. IIRC says non-zero
12:44:45 <elliott> would be nice if it was just replaced with lisp :)
12:45:07 <elliott> variable: not a very good shell.
12:45:10 <variable> I'm sure some has written a complete-shell in emacs
12:45:21 <elliott> (it also has coreutils-alikes)
12:45:29 <elliott> no, i prefer SOME modicum of posix compat :)
12:45:53 <ais523_> elliott: anyway, you can do "sudo rm -rf --no-preserve-root /" if you ever find a reason to delete the root dir
12:46:03 <ais523_> I love the way that there is an option to do that if you really really want to
12:46:09 <elliott> ais523_: that doesn't work, you're a liar! i won't believe it until i can test it on your machine!
12:46:11 <ais523_> variable: that's in GNU rm
12:46:19 <elliott> variable: yes, if you run GNU rm on FreeBSD
12:46:48 <variable> elliott: oh, right - who else would do something so insanely stupid?
12:46:52 <ais523_> I love the BSD people's reasoning why special-casing rm -rf / was POSIX-compliant
12:47:05 <elliott> variable: hey, i'm the only one allowed to complain about gnu here
12:47:10 <variable> I didn't know there was an excuse
12:47:15 <ais523_> it's that POSIX allows you to special-case rm on the current directory, and a recursive rm on / necessarily hits the current directory
12:47:18 <ais523_> and thus is allowed to be special-cased
12:47:45 <ais523_> variable: I don't have one offhand
12:47:47 -!- Lymia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:47:47 <elliott> by that logic, "rm -rf /usr" is disallowable if you're in /usr/local/ucb/vax
12:47:55 <ais523_> elliott: I think it probably is
12:48:17 <ais523_> I mean, what would happen to the current directory if it did work?
12:48:30 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
12:49:04 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
12:49:21 <variable> ais523_: try mkdir a && cd a && rm -rf ../a && cd .
12:49:21 <variable> on most systems that last command would fail
12:49:32 <variable> because the directory would have been deleted
12:49:48 <ais523_> I assumed the rm -rf would fail with "device busy" or something like that
12:50:10 <ais523_> (this is why daemons do a cd / as they daemonise, so you can delete the directory they were run from)
12:50:14 <elliott> <ais523_> I assumed the rm -rf would fail with "device busy" or something like that
12:50:38 <ais523_> elliott: ISTR trying it before, but I forget exactly what happened
12:50:48 <elliott> gah, zsh is recording duplicate history lines
12:50:53 <variable> ais523_: remember on unix like systems the name and the data are different. On windows and other systems with file locking it won't let you do that
12:51:15 <variable> elliott: or setopt ignoredups or setopt ignorealldups
12:51:24 <ais523_> variable: I know, but you can't hardlink directories, so the problem doesn't come up
12:51:35 <variable> elliott: a; b; a is only ignored by the latter
12:52:49 <variable> elliott: personally I don't expire all dups but I use hist_expire_dups_first
12:53:04 <variable> also set setopt hist_reduce_blanks && setopt extended_history
12:53:09 <elliott> variable: it's more that i kept hitting the up key and it kept showing me the same crap
12:53:14 <ais523_> variable: I'm a little surprised they ignore the b
12:53:17 <elliott> actually what i'd like is kind of a compromise: ignore repeated blocks of commands
12:53:29 <elliott> ignore "a; a", don't ignore "a; b; a", but ignore "a; b; a; b"
12:53:32 <elliott> but that's non-trivial to do
12:54:06 <elliott> /home/elliott/.zshrc:setopt:27: no such option: ignoredups
12:54:11 <elliott> guess i'm on an old version
12:54:29 <variable> elliott: `: <beginning time>:<elapsed seconds>;<command>'. instead of just the command
12:54:31 <ais523_> elliott: what you do is you compress it with gzip, then set all the repeat counts to 1, then uncompress it again
12:54:37 <ais523_> (I wonder if that would actually work?)
12:55:00 <elliott> ais523_: I'd like to try that on arbitrary data just to see the mayhem
12:55:05 <elliott> ais523_: do it to the gpl :)
12:55:18 <variable> ais523_: does gzip have any consistency checking?
12:55:21 <ais523_> I may have meant pkzip rather than gzip, you need to use the right compression algo for it to work
12:55:31 <ais523_> and it may be one that doesn't actually exist
12:55:40 <ais523_> variable: I'm not sure, but my guess is no as gzip is streamable
12:56:09 <Vorpal> <ais523_> I mean, what would happen to the current directory if it did work? <-- would become invalid. But as long as the rm command is run from elsewhere it won't complain iirc. If you show the path in $PS1 and cd up it can become a little strange though. I seem to remember stuff like "~/tmp/foo/bar/.. $" when I removed foo there. and then cd .. from inside the now missing bar
12:56:10 <ais523_> i.e. with the right command-line options, you can do tail -F logfile | gzip --something | zcat and get output before the tail command finishes
12:56:39 <ais523_> Vorpal: oh, I remember accidentally chmod a-rx .. or something along those lines
12:56:41 <Vorpal> but yes rm tends to complain about removing iirc
12:56:44 <ais523_> and it caused similar beahaviour
12:56:55 <elliott> hmm, why hasn't gnome-terminal taken note of the chsh yet
12:57:02 <fizzie> There's a CRC32 at the end of a gzip stream, but of course you don't need to wait for that if you don't want/care.
12:57:10 <elliott> maybe it's hardcoded the shell
12:57:21 <Vorpal> elliott, don't you need to re-login for chsh to take effect?
12:57:52 <elliott> Vorpal: hmm, are gnome sessions really tied to that?
12:58:09 <variable> rm: "." and ".." may not be removed
12:58:12 <ais523_> hmm, perhaps login sets an environment variable
12:58:20 <Vorpal> variable, that is just in rm itself iirc
12:58:32 <ais523_> and gnome-terminal looks at it
12:58:56 <fizzie> "SHELL=/usr/bin/zsh gnome-terminal" starts a zsh.
12:59:14 <Vorpal> variable, and I use a shell function wrapper for rm that catches stuff like rm -r * ~
12:59:27 <ais523_> Vorpal: what specifically does it do?
12:59:38 <Vorpal> ais523_, sec. will pastebin it
12:59:43 <variable> Vorpal: I have the shell do it
12:59:46 <elliott> i wonder if there's a way to tell the gnome session thingybob to change its environment vars :)
12:59:50 <Vorpal> ais523_, http://sprunge.us/cYgL
13:00:04 <variable> Vorpal: rm *; zsh: sure you want to delete all the files in /home/.../a [yn]?
13:00:12 <Vorpal> variable, right. I use bash
13:00:21 <ais523_> "rm is a function"? surely that would just delete ./is, ./a, ./function?
13:00:37 <Vorpal> ais523_, that was the output from: type rm | sprunge
13:00:48 <elliott> hmm, swatting is far too mild
13:00:50 <variable> Vorpal: what is sprunge? and why not use type?
13:01:03 <ais523_> so you're catching rm * via RMGUARD?
13:01:04 <elliott> sprunge is a nice pastebin.
13:01:09 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
13:01:14 <Vorpal> variable, sprunge.us. And sprunge is http://sprunge.us/IWON :P
13:01:18 <variable> elliott: ah. I use pastebinit (although that's broken now)
13:01:23 <ais523_> I like the trick of creating a file called -i, in the hope it comes first on the rm option line
13:01:30 <ais523_> but I'm not certain it does
13:01:38 <variable> elliott: I could just change.... injuring me doesn't work
13:01:41 <elliott> stgraber@castiana:~/data/code/pastebinit$ ./pastebinit -l
13:01:48 <elliott> so pastebinit supports sprunge :P
13:01:57 <Vorpal> unlike many pastebins sprunge is very fast for me. pastebin.com often took multiple seconds to load
13:02:07 <Vorpal> same for many other ones
13:02:30 <variable> ais523_: http://www.dwheeler.com/essays/fixing-unix-linux-filenames.html
13:02:43 * elliott wonders how often Vorpal types rm -rf /home/arvid.
13:02:51 <variable> ais523_: 99% of shell scripts Do It Wrong
13:02:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't. $HOME gets expanded in reading .bashrc I think
13:03:06 <Vorpal> elliott, either that, or in printing it
13:03:10 <ais523_> variable: I know, and I've written both shellscripts that do it wrong, and that do it right
13:03:24 <elliott> ais523_: pretty sure variable is referring to over-escaping as doing it wrong
13:03:26 <elliott> variable: i forget, does that article argue against spaces in filenames? or just newlines, dashes, etc.?
13:03:35 <Vorpal> elliott, the reason is, there is a risk of it getting expanded before it reaches the function.
13:03:35 <ais523_> hmm, what does it say about me that my home dir is /home/ais523, rather than using my own realname?
13:03:48 <ais523_> elliott: "$@" is normally correct if you're just trying to copy your command-line args to another program
13:03:53 <ais523_> and doesn't overescape or underescape
13:03:53 <variable> elliott: it passively mentions spaces - but generally argues against leading dashes, newlines, control characters, etc
13:03:54 <elliott> Vorpal: and your home dir has less than three files?
13:04:04 <elliott> ais523_: it's always correct, it's sh magic
13:04:14 <Vorpal> --- sprunge.us ping statistics ---
13:04:15 <Vorpal> 12 packets transmitted, 12 received, 0% packet loss, time 11011ms
13:04:15 <Vorpal> rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 34.245/35.674/36.846/0.772 ms
13:04:17 <elliott> Vorpal: then the guard is pointless!
13:04:34 <elliott> apparently Vorpal can't read his own function
13:04:44 <variable> Vorpal: can you paste your config files? I like seeing other people's functions and such. Gives me ideas
13:04:59 <ais523_> "cat ./* > ../collection # CORRECT"
13:05:00 <elliott> Vorpal: (he's trying to get your passwords)
13:05:07 <ais523_> variable: your link is wrong, that fails on filenames with embedded newlines
13:05:09 <Vorpal> elliott, what are you talking about? the rm function looks fine to me
13:05:15 <ais523_> in that the resulting collection file will have the wrong format
13:05:20 <ais523_> elliott: is that trolling?
13:05:24 <variable> ais523_: read through it all. He talks about embedded newlines
13:05:29 <elliott> ais523_: yes, because the article specifically argues against that
13:05:58 <elliott> if [[ $arg == '~' ]] || [[ $arg == /home/arvid ]] || [[ $arg =~ RMGUARD ]]; then
13:06:05 <elliott> unless your home dir has less than three files, this offers no extra protection
13:06:36 <Vorpal> elliott, true, but check what rm -I says in the question. It doesn't list what files.
13:06:42 <Vorpal> thus it offers protection
13:07:13 -!- sftp has joined.
13:07:18 <ais523_> hmm, I like the mention of displaying filenames potentially being a security vulnerability
13:07:26 <ais523_> it's "correct", but I consider that a terminal bug rather than a sh bug
13:07:32 <ais523_> as all sorts of other things can trigger it
13:07:50 <variable> ais523_: it isn't a terminal bug. The idea is that your displaying terminal control characters
13:07:55 <variable> I consider it a filesystem bug
13:08:07 <ais523_> variable: but the same thing can happen if, say, you cat your Apache logfiles
13:08:11 <ais523_> and someone put escape codes in the referrer
13:08:17 <elliott> the real bug is filesystems
13:08:24 <elliott> can we stop debating now because i won >:D
13:08:29 <ais523_> elliott: that has nothing to do with filesystems or shells at all
13:08:30 <variable> ais523_: or a kernel bug. The system should *not* be allowing those chars in a filename
13:08:40 <ais523_> variable: it's nothing to do with filenames!
13:08:45 <elliott> ais523_: the need for quoting filenames in the first place, or the fact that this is even a thing that is being discussed, is Unix's fault
13:08:54 <elliott> therefore to continue talking about it you must justify Unix to me
13:08:59 <ais523_> elliott: read what I'm actually saying
13:09:03 <ais523_> I'm not in fact talking about that
13:09:05 <variable> ais523_: if [ $RANDOM % 2 -eq 1 ]; then elliott == trolling; fi
13:09:19 <elliott> variable: wtf kind of command is elliott
13:09:34 <elliott> i'm only half-trolling, the fact that this is even an issue is stupid :)
13:09:45 <ais523_> variable: you made me look to see if "elliott" was almost an anagram of "trolling" then, but the closest I get is "ttollie", which is not that similar
13:10:10 <variable> elliott: questionably. I have my own ideas about what should be designed if we were to Do It Over. But that can't happen
13:10:31 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, you will run into a quoting problem as soon as you allow the shell argument separator char in filenames. So what do you suggest? Forbidding space and similar in filenames? Using another separator in the shell? (I completely agree that newlines shouldn't be allowed in filenames)
13:10:40 <elliott> variable: er - correct me if I'm wrong -
13:10:43 <ais523_> oh, apparently mandb gets permanently corrupted if you create a manpage for an executable called "oo, ick" (without the quotes)
13:10:47 <elliott> variable: but did you just say that Unix derivatives will rule the world forever?
13:10:54 -!- copumpkin has joined.
13:11:14 <Vorpal> ais523_, just that specific string? Or any other with comma and space?
13:11:19 <elliott> maybe the next few decades, but not forever. COBOL hasn't died but it's certainly fallen.
13:11:26 <ais523_> and yet many people would argue that that's a perfectly sensible filename; Windows users do that sort of thing all the time
13:11:29 <variable> elliott: no. I did say that I find it extremely unlikely that a complete departure from the current methods of doing things will take place
13:11:39 <ais523_> Vorpal: well, that's the one it did crash on, in Debian
13:11:54 <ais523_> it lead to an argument between "mandb is broken, you should fix it" and "CLC-INTERCAL is much less important than mandb, you should just rename it"
13:11:56 <elliott> variable: I'm just making sure you have a good idea of how long the infinite stretch of time you're saying we'll go without innovation will be
13:12:05 <elliott> because it's an incredibly extraordinary claim
13:12:30 <variable> elliott: I'm hesitant to say so, but I would not be surprised if we never leave
13:12:31 <variable> elliott - innovation is not the issue AT ALL
13:12:40 <elliott> <variable> elliott: I'm hesitant to say so, but I would not be surprised if we never leave
13:12:40 <variable> it is compatibility and expense of switching
13:12:45 <elliott> are you sure you just don't mean: in the next 50 years?
13:12:50 <ais523_> elliott: I expect UNIX derivatives to be used for as long as the concept makes sense, but I don't expect the concept to apply to non-obsolete technology forever
13:13:02 <Vorpal> ais523_, Basically they were claiming that mandb was a partial function?
13:13:04 <elliott> variable: let's say we don't go extinct and there's no singularity or anything and it's the year 3000
13:13:10 <elliott> you think we'll still be using unix?
13:13:21 <Vorpal> err, maybe not right English word
13:13:50 <variable> elliott: we will probably not be using unix. I would NOT be surprised if however there was some form of unix compatibility, or there are 'historical' filenames or whatnot.
13:14:06 <variable> and yes - this is 1000 years in the future
13:14:19 <Vorpal> ais523_, basically, it was undefined for some values in the domain (the set of valid filenames on that particular system)
13:14:21 <ais523_> IIRC Windows is /still/ compatible with CP/M, but that's only a few decades
13:14:34 <ais523_> I don't really see mandb as a function
13:14:40 <variable> elliott: I'm not saying we won't switch away ever
13:14:58 <elliott> variable: so in the year 1011
13:15:01 <variable> elliott: I'm saying that inertia is kind of strong. Same reason we still have little endian computers :-)
13:15:04 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:15:16 <elliott> it's not thousand-year strong. unix isn't that strong. or important.
13:15:30 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1011
13:15:40 <elliott> just making sure you understand the length of time involved here
13:16:11 <variable> elliott: I take back my claim. I never intended to defend it very strongly.
13:16:21 <elliott> i'm not saying you should retract it
13:16:26 <elliott> i'm just astonished that it was made
13:16:33 <elliott> and legitimately can't understand
13:16:34 <variable> elliott: I was making a point about inertia
13:16:53 <variable> I guess I hyperbolized too much
13:17:06 <elliott> but at the same time, I think people saying that we're stuck with the systems we have is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy
13:17:35 <variable> elliott: on IRC I don't speak very precisely; also - I'm not saying we are *stuck* - however I think that *any* attempt to switch must have some kind of transition layer
13:17:48 <elliott> what seems to be happening in other fields -- e.g. programming languages -- is that existing "mainstream" languages pick up features from the academic fringe after a few decades ball-of-mud style
13:17:49 <variable> and I see that layer lasting *much* longer than intended
13:18:00 <elliott> so, even if making a new OS is pointless, it's still valuable
13:18:13 <Vorpal> I think x86 is unlikely to die for a long time. Sadly. Sure it will be extended, possibly to the point where it is hard to tell if it is still the same architecture. But unlikely to die soon. With soon here I'm talking about the next 10-15 years at least.
13:18:35 <elliott> x86 will be dead in 35 years.
13:18:58 <variable> elliott: Vorpal: if you were to have a chance to make *one* change (related to technology) what would it be?
13:19:04 <Vorpal> elliott, impossible to make any sort of well founded prediction that far ahead I think...
13:19:09 <Vorpal> at least for this sort of thing
13:19:27 <elliott> (maybe you consider that too big to count as one change :))
13:20:07 <variable> elliott: I would pick "little endian" -> "big endian"
13:20:13 <variable> it is the cause for endless suffering
13:20:29 <variable> and large amounts of extra work (intel computer -> internet -> intel computer)
13:20:56 <elliott> i admit i'm not a networking guy, but come on... it's just swab()
13:21:04 <Vorpal> variable, if related to computers: replace x86 with a saner architecture. Say something along the lines of PPC. If technology in general I would instead go for cars. Electric or other environmentally friendly technology to be used instead of the current fuels.
13:21:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, the latter is already happening
13:21:23 <variable> Vorpal: I was thinking computer specific ....
13:21:24 <elliott> "Hi i'm a genie what is your wish"
13:21:32 <elliott> "Gosh! Well that's already happening."
13:21:32 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but not as fast as we need it to happen
13:21:34 <variable> elliott: it doesn't only affect networking
13:21:45 <variable> elliott: databases need to worry about it, streaming formats, etc
13:21:58 <variable> elliott: also, it is confusing and a POLA violation
13:22:00 <Vorpal> variable, then what I said about replacing x86
13:22:14 <elliott> Vorpal: It is "too late" already, the planet cannot be magically saved by moderately cutting emissions at this late a date.
13:22:27 <variable> Vorpal: Policy of Least Astonishment
13:22:32 <Vorpal> elliott, yes. I assumed retroactive change.
13:22:35 <ais523_> it isn't even cars that are mostly responsible for emissions anyway, IIRC
13:22:40 <ais523_> planes and ships are a lot worse
13:22:46 <ais523_> and power generation from fossil fuels
13:22:59 <elliott> Vorpal: You'd have to go waaaaaaaaay back for it to do any good.
13:23:03 <Vorpal> variable, one nice thing with little endian is that casting between, say, short and long, won't change the address.
13:23:12 <elliott> Anyway bioenegineering is pretty much a requirement at this point.
13:23:14 <ais523_> elliott: moderately cutting emissions now increases the chance that we'll come across some amazing new technology that saves the planet
13:23:15 <elliott> But that's not really a bad thing.
13:23:48 <elliott> ais523_: bioengineering is a perfectly practical and very promising solution, it's just not politically popular
13:23:57 <elliott> because "green" is far more marketable
13:24:01 <ais523_> what specifically do you mean by the word?
13:24:02 <elliott> turn down your washing machines! save the planet!
13:24:07 <elliott> *you too* can have warm fuzzies!
13:24:37 <ais523_> besides, even if saving energy doesn't save the planet from global warming, it still helps a lot in reducing the amount of land needed for power generation and transport
13:25:08 <elliott> ais523_: that's not exactly the biggest issue...
13:25:30 <ais523_> elliott: you'd be surprised
13:25:47 <elliott> ais523_: well, no, not really :)
13:25:49 <ais523_> it's hard enough finding places to put power stations without people getting angry and burning down the dovernment
13:26:00 <elliott> i'm going to assume you're being hyperbolic
13:26:49 <elliott> no, I meant the burning down part.
13:27:23 <ais523_> there are a lot of angry people going on demonstrations for no good reason around Birmingham at the moment
13:27:30 <ais523_> although they aren't protesting against power generation in particular
13:27:42 <ais523_> or, well, anyhing much in particular, except they generically don't like the government
13:27:48 <Gregor> They ARE burning down the Ministry of Doves though.
13:27:57 <elliott> ais523_: in fairness, the government is pretty crap
13:28:16 <ais523_> I prefer it to the previous one, at least
13:28:58 <ais523_> also, I'm annoyed at a) all the students who seem to dislike increases in tuition fees without even seeing what the alternative proposal was (it's actually exactly the same as the original, apart from using different names)
13:29:14 <ais523_> and b) people who think the government should just spend money it doesn't have and not increase taxes
13:29:16 <Gregor> OK, so people are already in a competitive bidding mood in the libc.so auction ... I'm beginning to feel it may be prudent to put down my max early to discourage them.
13:30:11 <elliott> ais523_: wrt tuition fees, it _was_ a direct contradiction of a promise made by the lib dems
13:30:33 <elliott> ais523_: which is a perfectly reasonable thing to be upset about.
13:30:33 <ais523_> but the funny thing is, what the lib dems were proposing before hand was actually equivalent
13:30:39 <ais523_> and so is what labour are proposing now
13:31:27 <ais523_> it's the difference between "pay money upfront, you get a loan for it, you pay a percentage of your income to pay off a loan", and "don't pay money while a student, but afterwards you're taxed a certain proportion of your income until you've paid a certain amount"
13:31:38 <ais523_> see, tuition fees, no tuition fees, but actually no difference at all
13:31:51 <ais523_> and everyone seems to have missed it
13:32:08 <elliott> ais523_: the pay money upfront bit is the relevant difference.
13:32:16 <ais523_> no, it isn't, because you get a loan for it
13:32:26 <ais523_> note that in the second case, you're still effectively going into debt
13:32:31 <ais523_> just the money isn't called a loan
13:32:52 <ais523_> the actual difference is that in the first case, if you can afford to you can pay without the loan, and save money in the long run that way; in the second case you can't
13:34:08 <ais523_> if only the politicians had pointed this out, it could have saved a lot of trouble, but instead they were trying to use the distinction to score election points
13:34:33 <elliott> ais523_: counterpoint: EMA
13:35:07 <elliott> i don't even know why i said counterpoint there
13:36:26 <Vorpal> elliott, hey df does seem to have that sort of bookmark I was wondering about before
13:38:32 <ais523_> Vorpal: df(1)? dwarf fortress? something else?
13:38:42 <Vorpal> ais523_, dwarf fortress
13:39:29 <ais523_> Vorpal: btw, how do you delete your RMGUARD files? rm ./RMGUARD? unlink RMGUARD?
13:39:45 <Vorpal> ais523_, command rm RMGUARD
13:40:03 <elliott> ais523_: he actually modified his fs to put fake RMGUARDs in every directory
13:40:09 <ais523_> unlink(1) would work too, I think
13:40:25 <ais523_> or unlink(2), but that would require writing a program
13:41:41 <Vorpal> ais523_, I haven't been using the RMGUARD feature a lot though. I added it in, then used it in a few places.
13:42:22 <Vorpal> most places where typoing rm *~ as rm * would risk happening, would already be under version control.
13:42:36 -!- augur has joined.
13:42:49 <Vorpal> ais523_, another obvious way is: mv RMGUARD foo; rm foo
13:43:13 <Vorpal> ais523_, besides you will notice I used a regex match there. Without anchors.
13:43:25 <ais523_> I set Emacs to backup to a different directory
13:43:42 <ais523_> partly so that rm *~ was something that I rarely actually wanted to type
13:43:48 <ais523_> which reduces the chance of typing it incorrectly
13:43:51 <Vorpal> ais523_, meh, I use many different editors. I don't think all supports that. Never seen such an option in kate for example
13:44:17 <ais523_> although I use many different editors, I mostly use Emacs for important things
13:44:22 <Vorpal> since I use both kate and emacs, (depends on what language), it would just be confusing if only one put the backups elsewhere
13:44:25 <ais523_> anyway, I'm going to go back to my office now
13:44:33 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
13:52:01 -!- azaq23 has joined.
13:56:20 -!- ais523_ has joined.
14:00:27 <ais523_> gah, I'm in my office, with my laptop next to me
14:00:33 <elliott> ais523_: ALSO UNFORGIVABLE
14:00:38 <ais523_> and connecting with my desktop because the wireless here is stupid
14:00:54 <ais523_> well, my work desktop, it's not "mine"
14:00:54 <elliott> bold black is a really terrible dark grey
14:01:52 <elliott> <variable> elliott: try precmd() { [[ -z "$@" ]] && ls }
14:01:54 -!- pumpkin has joined.
14:02:17 <ais523_> hmm, does that ls before every command that takes no arguments?
14:02:30 <elliott> ais523_: it should ls whenever you enter an empty command
14:02:44 <elliott> so i can just whack enter to see a file listing
14:02:51 <elliott> as opposed to the useless default of doing nothing
14:03:00 <ais523_> the default of doing nothing isn't useless
14:03:10 <ais523_> it's very useful if the last command you end produced output that didn't end with a newline
14:03:21 <elliott> but in that case you can do ";"
14:03:22 <ais523_> what are you supposed to do in that situation otherwise? press control-C?
14:04:00 <elliott> variable: i don't think precmd gets the command
14:04:03 <elliott> since it runs before the _prompt_
14:04:19 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:05:15 <ais523_> btw, the page linked from proggit about about:blank is great
14:05:22 <ais523_> explaining why it's so hard to render
14:05:42 <ais523_> (summary: most pages show about:blank until the rendering starts, you obviously can't do that with about:blank itself so you need special-casing)
14:06:26 <elliott> hsivonen is a source of much wtfy info :)
14:06:48 <elliott> ais523_: one person in the comments said they didn't trust the author's opinions on rendering because, among other things, the markup was wrapped at 80 columns "for no reason"
14:06:55 <elliott> i cried and then committed suicide
14:07:11 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
14:07:30 -!- cheater99 has joined.
14:07:33 <ais523_> I had an argument about wrapping code at 80 recently, although I can't remember why
14:07:44 <ais523_> I said 80 was a nice width for fitting two programs side by side on a screen
14:07:55 <elliott> ais523_: oh, I don't inherently like it
14:08:05 <elliott> ais523_: but dismissing someone because they do it is unforgivable
14:08:56 -!- copumpkin has joined.
14:11:17 <ais523_> btw, Slashdot's also decided that the Samsung keylogger thing is a false positive
14:12:48 <ais523_> a bunch of media sites decided Samsung were installing keyloggers on new PCs
14:12:59 <ais523_> although most of them have since retracted the claims
14:13:08 <ais523_> I was being vaguely sarcastic about it in #esoteric earlier
14:13:54 <ais523_> an antivirus program found a folder with a particular name
14:13:57 <ais523_> and didn't check its contents
14:15:17 <Gregor> GUILTY UNTIL PROVED INNOCENT
14:15:53 <Gregor> elliott: ZEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEe
14:16:06 <elliott> Gregor: Your letters, they are wrong.
14:16:17 <Gregor> elliott: You haven't proved that.
14:16:29 <elliott> ais523_: Tell Gregor he's speaking the wrong language.
14:16:46 <ais523_> elliott: how do you know it's not everyone else who's speaking the wrong language?
14:16:53 <elliott> ais523_: because his language sucks
14:17:22 <Gregor> My language that has the past tense of "prove" consistent with nearly every other past tense verb in the language? :P
14:17:42 <elliott> English: a consistent language.
14:17:55 <Gregor> My language sucks because it's more consistent than yours?
14:18:05 <elliott> Consistent English is ugly English :P
14:18:38 <ais523_> it took me several attempts to properly write a NetHack patch a while ago because of the distinction between "drawn" and "drew"
14:18:46 <ais523_> the code assumed the same word would work in both contexts
14:18:52 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Several, not nearly every.
14:19:21 <Gregor> Unlike eated and beated, proved is a commonly-accepted alternative to proven. In fact my spelling dictionary doesn't like "proven"
14:19:42 <ais523_> btw, vaguely on-topic: how do non-Americans here pronounce "joust", as in "BF Joust"?
14:19:45 <Phantom_Hoover> But yeah, any assumption that American English is "logical" is stupid.
14:20:08 <ais523_> (the American pronunciation is almost certainly along the same lines as "route")
14:20:15 <elliott> Gregor: I beated the shit out of your spelling.
14:20:36 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: I pronounce it more like "juiced", and a friend of mine said that that was ridiculous
14:21:23 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: don't you have it backwards?
14:21:32 <elliott> IPA: /dʒaʊst/ SAMPA: /dZaUst/
14:21:35 <ais523_> I seem to be the only person in the world, American or not, who doesn't use the American pronunciation
14:21:42 <ais523_> so how does that make me American?
14:21:43 <elliott> Pretty sure that means we win.
14:21:52 <elliott> ais523_: THERE IS NO AMERICAN PRONUNCIATION THERE IS JUST THAT PRONUNCIATION
14:22:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover can Actually Joust, I therefore name him the authority.
14:22:05 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: so how is it pronounced in American?
14:22:15 <elliott> variable: btw that doesn't work as precmd doesn't actually seem to get the last command in $@
14:23:04 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523_, it's pronounced "jowst" in America as well, I should think.
14:23:14 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: well, indeed
14:23:16 <Phantom_Hoover> They didn't just change all the pronunciations to annoy us.
14:23:19 <ais523_> thus it's an American pronunciation
14:23:25 <ais523_> it may be a British pronunciation too
14:23:45 <ais523_> but it's absurd to say something can't be pronounced a particular way in American English just because it's pronounced that way in British English
14:23:48 <elliott> ais523_: you should drop these things to avoid giving Phantom_Hoover a heart attack
14:26:57 -!- wth has joined.
14:31:44 -!- wth has left.
14:31:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Maan, precmd.
14:32:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Bloody Chinese, flaunting their fancy IPv6 connections.
14:32:41 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
14:37:34 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:38:59 -!- copumpkin has joined.
14:38:59 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
14:38:59 -!- copumpkin has joined.
14:39:28 <variable> <elliott> variable: btw that doesn't work as precmd doesn't actually seem to get the last command in $@ ---> I duno. I didn't try it. Try playing around with precmd and preexec
14:39:47 <elliott> variable: I did; preexec executes for everything but the empty string. AFAICT precmd doesn't actually get the previous command :/
14:40:11 <ais523_> does precmd execute on the empty string?
14:40:21 <ais523_> what you could do is get preexec to set a flag, and precmd to check if it was set
14:40:32 <ais523_> then if you get precmd withotu a matching preexec, the null string must have been entered
14:42:02 <elliott> ais523_: works, horribly :)
14:42:09 <elliott> although it needs a hack so that it doesn't ls on zsh startup
14:42:22 <variable> elliott: zsh sets some flag on startup IIRC
14:42:25 <elliott> preexec() { executed=true }
14:42:34 <variable> elliott: can you paste your config files?
14:42:58 <elliott> variable: my config file is just a bunch added by the installer thing, plus a few aliases, prompt, and that, but ok :P
14:43:29 <variable> elliott: hehe ok. I try to get ideas from other people. I don't spend much time customizing most things - but I'm in my shell - a lot
14:43:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: PROMPT=...
14:43:43 <elliott> variable: http://sprunge.us/LAIQ
14:44:25 <elliott> variable: but this is likely to expand since i've just switched back to zsh :)
14:44:28 <variable> Phantom_Hoover: [%! %F{blue}%n@%F{blue}%m %F{magenta}%30<...<%~ %F{red}%(?..!%?!)%f]%# --> try this one :-)
14:44:43 <elliott> (been using stock bash for god knows how long)
14:45:02 <elliott> zsh: correct 'Code' to 'od' [nyae]?
14:45:07 <elliott> i don't think I like this autocorrect thing :D
14:45:22 <variable> elliott: you could use 'nocorrect' for certain commands
14:45:29 <elliott> oh wait, if I just initialise executed to true
14:45:30 <variable> like alias mkdir='nocorrect mkdir'
14:45:34 -!- impomatic has joined.
14:46:02 <elliott> hmm, I should also write my own cd
14:46:05 <elliott> so that it lses after that too
14:46:09 <elliott> arguably i should just have an ls pane :D
14:46:13 <impomatic> Oh well. There's some slightly crazy Corewar Fanfic here http://annesophiecc.tumblr.com/post/4190311225/v8-fb-corewar (in French)
14:46:39 <variable> elliott: why do you want blank == ls?
14:46:54 <elliott> variable: because I seem to ls a lot... even when my mind just blanks out for a bit :D
14:47:06 <elliott> mostly i ls a lot to get my bearings when navigating around
14:47:14 <elliott> and i never deliberately just hit enter :P
14:47:49 <elliott> hmm, seems like entering a dir as a cmd to auto-cd doesn't invoke cd command :/
14:47:53 <elliott> time for more postcmd hackery
14:47:59 <Gregor> elliott: You said you'd pay me to shut up about libc.so
14:48:05 <Gregor> I HAVEN'T SHUT UP ABOUT IT
14:48:17 <elliott> Gregor: I DEMAND TEN EMAILS
14:48:42 <variable> Gregor: what is the auction up to?
14:48:50 <Gregor> impomatic: I'm trying to get the domain name libc.so.
14:48:59 <ais523_> impomatic: a) the filename of the most important library on a typical Linux system; b) a domain name that Gregor's in the auction for
14:49:17 <ais523_> and he's trying to persuade people to donate money to help him buy it
14:49:48 <ais523_> Gregor: are you sure http://libc.so is worth $310?
14:49:49 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: You're arguing that libc isn't the most important library even though literally every other library and binary in a typical ELF Unix system depends on it?
14:50:06 <Gregor> ais523_: Also, malloc@libc.so alone is worth $310 :P
14:50:08 <elliott> Gregor: I'll pay more if you get libc.a
14:50:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, what about that one that actually does dynamic linking?
14:50:25 <elliott> ais523_: create a country for the purpose, then
14:50:26 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Doesn't have a consistent name across Unixen.
14:50:49 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: HE said Linux. /I/ say Unix.
14:50:57 <Vorpal> <variable> Vorpal: you too <-- config files? That is rather unspecific...
14:51:08 <ais523_> I like the way you're assuming I'm male
14:51:14 <ais523_> elliott: ccTLDs are two letters, aren't they?
14:51:21 <variable> Vorpal: your bash config files from above?
14:51:29 <elliott> * variable WANTS A GOOD DOMAIN NAME
14:51:30 <Gregor> ais523_: No, I'm assuming you're Alex Smith.
14:51:30 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523_, yes, what with the fact that photos of you are on your damn Google results.
14:51:44 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: I know you know I'm male
14:51:44 <Vorpal> variable, ah. You mean the .bashrc. Right.
14:51:49 <elliott> He's just a really, really manly girl.
14:51:52 <ais523_> but the assumption is still vaguely offensive
14:52:04 <ais523_> also, searching for "alex smith" mostly doesn't find me, it's a very common name
14:52:06 <Gregor> ais523_: Fuck off, English has no living neuter pronoun.
14:52:35 <variable> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_Internet_top-level_domains
14:52:40 <Phantom_Hoover> FFS, we *all* know about you winning that prize, and that plastered pictures of you *everywhere*.
14:52:42 <Gregor> elliott: BLEH I SAY :P
14:52:52 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: it plastered one picture of me everywhere
14:52:57 <Phantom_Hoover> If you're going to be self-righteous, please at least make sure it's *justified*.
14:53:15 <ais523_> elliott: there are two different pictures of me plastered everywhere?
14:53:15 <elliott> there was that ridiculous one in the guardian article
14:53:25 <ais523_> oh right, I forgot that one
14:53:30 <Vorpal> variable, nah, it is just the rm thing, loading ssh-agent data, and setting a PS1 basically.
14:53:43 <elliott> ais523_: please tell me you were intentionally doing your best "wtf is this" face
14:53:46 <impomatic> Its annoying that programming .com .org .info .co.uk .us .co .in .eu .biz are all owned by domain squatters :-(
14:53:47 <Vorpal> oh and the sprunge command
14:53:57 <Gregor> ais523_: Also you must be really really poor to think that $310 is so much money X-D
14:54:18 <Vorpal> variable, for reference, here is my PS1: '\[\033[01;32m\]\u@\h\[\033[01;34m\] \w \$\[\033[00m\] '
14:54:21 <ais523_> (the one on the Wolfram site was taken by a Wolframite who happened to be in Birmingham at the time and decided to meet with me; the newspaper one was taken by a journalist who went their deliberately and tried to find some technology-y thing, and I was in an EE department at the time, and they found a box of wire...)
14:54:26 <elliott> impomatic: .biz is entirely squatters
14:54:39 <elliott> Gregor: HA HA THE EXPLOITED WORKING CLASS *MONOCLE*
14:54:41 <ais523_> what would be the purpose of a TLD that was entirely squatters?
14:54:47 <ais523_> as in, what's the point of squatting it?
14:54:48 <elliott> ais523_: ask whoever created .biz
14:55:04 <Phantom_Hoover> TIL that ais523_ and Gregor are both perfectly capable of being obnoxious.
14:55:11 <ais523_> you might squat a domain in the hope that spammers buy it from you
14:55:26 <elliott> ais523_: what if you squatted a domain in the hopes that another squatter will buy it off you?
14:55:40 <elliott> ais523_: (this is also known as: the stock market)
14:55:40 <ais523_> elliott: as for the "wtf is this" face, it was "intentional" in the sense that that was my thoughts at the time
14:55:48 <ais523_> elliott: that's a bubble, clearly
14:55:55 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: define:TIL
14:56:04 <ais523_> what's your opinion on the market valuing Apple higher than Microsoft?
14:56:08 <elliott> Gregor: Tiaras Ingratiatingly Lessen
14:56:08 <ais523_> Gregor: today I learnt, mostly seen on Reddit
14:56:23 <elliott> ais523_: it probably means that apple are squatting a really good domain
14:56:27 <Gregor> ais523_: *learned elliott: PROBLEM?
14:56:34 <elliott> like say viagrac1alisbusinesspillz348usaedu.biz
14:56:36 <Gregor> ais523_: (That was really at elliott :P )
14:57:04 <ais523_> but Microsoft are squatting wingtiptoys.com and tailspintoys.com, surely those are worth something?
14:57:25 <elliott> $executed && ([[ $here = $HOME ]] || [[ $last_directory = $here ]]) || {
14:57:26 <Gregor> They will be in the New World Order when shoes are toys.
14:57:28 <elliott> what's wrong with this logic...
14:57:33 <ais523_> (instead of using example.com, example.net, etc., Microsoft actually maintain two domains for the purpose of using them as examples, presumably in an effort to violate standards for no good reason)
14:57:58 <elliott> ais523_: It's all part of their Evil Initiative.
14:58:02 <elliott> Whose purpose is to be evil.
14:58:06 <ais523_> Gregor: wingtipshoes don't sound particularly useful
14:58:12 <ais523_> and tailspinshoes sound very dizzy-inducing
14:58:22 <elliott> variable: ooh ooh ooh i should make preexec and precmd execute every element in a list of functions for extensibility!
14:58:31 -!- pumpkin has joined.
14:58:38 <Gregor> ais523_: ... wing tip shoes are a kind of shoes.
14:58:46 <Vorpal> <ais523_> but Microsoft are squatting wingtiptoys.com and tailspintoys.com, surely those are worth something? <-- wait what?
14:58:49 <variable> elliott: erm - you could already do that
14:58:57 <elliott> variable: it would be magical!
14:58:57 <variable> elliott: typeset -A precmd or something like that
14:58:58 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, quick, implement zhhtpd and get it out of your system!
14:58:58 <Gregor> ais523_: I'm sorry that the poor working class is unaware of wing tip shoes.
14:59:16 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, thank you
14:59:20 <Gregor> ais523_: I'm sorry that the poor exploited working class is unaware of wing tip shoes.
14:59:22 <ais523_> Gregor: $310 is several month's worth of transport
14:59:32 <elliott> Transport to the COAL MINES
14:59:44 <ais523_> nah, you can't fit a bus in a coal mine
15:00:00 <elliott> if not executed, or here isn't home and last directory isn't here, blah.
15:00:11 <Gregor> ais523_: It's also half a plane ticket to anywhere interesting, and about three weeks' meals. Your point?
15:00:16 <Vorpal> <ais523_> nah, you can't fit a bus in a coal mine <-- you can however in some iron mines.
15:00:18 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
15:00:31 <elliott> executed or not (here isn't home and last directory isn't here)
15:00:32 <ais523_> Gregor: would you rather eat for three weeks, or buy a domain name?
15:00:38 <Vorpal> ais523_, probably not double deckers or articulated ones though
15:00:44 <elliott> executed or (here is home or last directory isn't here)
15:00:47 <elliott> executed or here is home or last directory isn't here
15:00:53 <Gregor> ais523_: I have the money to eat for three weeks and buy hundreds of domain names and still be in the black.
15:01:03 <Gregor> Surely ais523_ is older than me :P
15:01:07 <ais523_> Gregor: then why are you asking for donations?
15:01:24 <elliott> (FACTUAL FACTS FOR FACTICIANS)
15:01:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it's completely impossible to determine someone's age here.
15:01:39 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: my age is a matter of public record
15:01:41 <elliott> yeah. for instance, I'm 42.
15:01:49 <Gregor> ais523_: Because buying all these domain names would not put me in the red, but it would hurt a lot and not be good for lifelong finances :P
15:02:09 <Gregor> ais523_: I've still got a budget to balance here.
15:02:14 <elliott> wtf, this code never worked in the first place
15:02:34 <Gregor> And besides, people are getting sweet email addresses for their donations :P
15:02:39 <elliott> no, it just turns out that the other broken code i had was triggering instead
15:02:43 <elliott> but now i don't know why this isn't executing
15:03:14 <ais523_> Gregor: part of my issue is that it's sufficiently difficult to send money over the Internet that I don't even try
15:03:26 <ais523_> I'm still owed $10 from a couple of internet-friends of mine, but haven't asked for it as I couldn't figure out how
15:03:47 <Gregor> ais523_: I don't need donations from everyone, but I also don't need for you to be questioning the wisdom of my rather-silly-but-infinite-geek-cred purchase :P
15:04:22 <elliott> $executed && ([[ $last_directory = $here ]] || [[ $here = $HOME ]]) || {
15:04:36 <elliott> ok let's try and remove that ugly nesting
15:05:00 <elliott> ~(last directory != here && here = home)
15:05:02 <elliott> ~(last directory != here && here != home)
15:05:13 <ais523_> why do you need the ~~ at all?
15:05:20 <ais523_> or are you using a logic where it has a meaning?
15:05:32 <elliott> ais523_: I just want to turn p /\ (q \/ r) into something flat with sh's precedence
15:06:27 <elliott> !executed \/ (last directory != here /\ here != home)
15:06:31 <Gregor> Upon examining the so-called Edible Arrangements paradox, economists worldwide have abandoned many of the ideas that have dominated economic thought since the time of Adam Smith, arguing that the forces of supply and demand are powerless to explain the company's 45-piece line of officially licensed NASCAR-themed fruit bouquets.
15:07:00 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
15:07:33 <elliott> else if last directory is not here and here is not home, do the same.
15:07:42 <elliott> if (not executed) or (last directory is not here and here is not home), do this.
15:15:51 <elliott> if (! $executed) || ([[ $last_directory != $here ]] && [ $here != $HOME ])
15:15:55 <elliott> ais523_: does this logic make sen.
15:16:13 <ais523_> I don't know, I'm not paying attention
15:16:57 <elliott> Deewiant: Would be relevant if it was even triggering properly :P
15:17:21 <Deewiant> () are subshells, I'm not sure if that would matter there
15:17:29 -!- copumpkin has joined.
15:17:33 <oklopol> is anyone ever truly not paying attention, or just distributing it widely enough that the nonlinearity of succeeding at thinking makes it *seem* like they're not paying any attention at all
15:17:45 <oklopol> this has been bugging me for seconds
15:18:35 <elliott> local last_directory=$(pwd)
15:18:35 <elliott> preexec() { executed=true }
15:18:38 <elliott> if (! $executed) || ([[ $last_directory != $here ]] && [ $here != $HOME ])
15:18:54 <elliott> Deewiant: Perhaps it does matter
15:19:02 <elliott> The intention is that entering a blank line causes a ls anywhere, and the directory changing to anywhere but $HOME causes an ls
15:19:10 <Deewiant> elliott: Presumably because they're local, it matters?
15:19:13 <Deewiant> I don't know, I never use locals
15:19:44 <Deewiant> test does, so I'd imagine [[ does
15:20:01 <elliott> /home/elliott/.zshrc:44: parse error near `)'
15:25:54 <Ilari> 2.459 blocks used by APNIC during March.
15:27:39 <ais523_> btw, I just updated [[BF Joust strategies]] with slowpoke
15:27:50 <ais523_> the description is much, much shorter than that of waterfall3, as it's a much simpler program
15:28:36 <Gregor> ais523_: Eventually I will get around to DEFEATING YOU
15:29:14 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
15:30:02 <ais523_> meh, I seriously hope slowpoke is defeatable, and by a rather different style of program
15:30:07 <ais523_> as we'll have to change the rules if it isn't
15:30:13 <ais523_> it's been on top of the leaderboard long enough
15:30:50 <Gregor> ais523_: Nobody's really bothered though.
15:31:02 <ais523_> people are bothered periodically
15:31:11 <ais523_> I wouldn't want an invincible program to repel everyone next time
15:31:12 <elliott> !BFJOUST PERIODICALLY >>>>DIE SLOWPOKE((%(%
15:31:25 <ais523_> in fact, my next project will be trying to beat slowpoke with a defence program
15:31:32 <ais523_> that isn't specialcased just against it
15:31:35 <ais523_> in the hope that it's possible
15:31:57 <ais523_> I fear it's impossible to completely defeat timer clears with defence, but you could slow them down quite a lot
15:32:40 <ais523_> !bfjoust slow_rumble >+++((+)*128(-)*128)*10000
15:32:53 <EgoBot> Score for ais523__slow_rumble: 3.8
15:32:54 <ais523_> I doubt that'll do well, but I want to see how it fails
15:33:25 <ais523_> beh, beating tripwire avoiders, drawing to defence, nicely inevitable
15:34:30 <ais523_> woah, http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/breakdown.txt is a lot more promising, thoguh
15:34:46 <Ilari> New depletion estimate: Wednesday April 13th
15:35:32 <ais523_> what if I do it on my flag?
15:35:54 <ais523_> !bfjoust slow_rumble +++((-)*128(+)*128)*10000
15:35:59 <EgoBot> Score for ais523__slow_rumble: 11.8
15:36:22 -!- cheater00 has joined.
15:36:53 <ais523_> !bfjoust slow_rumble ((-)*128(+)*128)*10000
15:36:58 <EgoBot> Score for ais523__slow_rumble: 12.3
15:38:11 -!- ch2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:38:30 <ais523_> !bfjoust slow_rumble >+++++<((-)*128(+)*128)*10000
15:38:35 <EgoBot> Score for ais523__slow_rumble: 13.0
15:38:49 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
15:41:21 <ais523_> !bfjoust slow_rumble >+[]<((-)*128(+)*128)*10000
15:41:26 <EgoBot> Score for ais523__slow_rumble: 8.0
15:42:01 <ais523_> !bfjoust slow_rumble >+<(-)*125>[]<((-)*128(+)*128)*10000
15:42:07 <EgoBot> Score for ais523__slow_rumble: 11.3
15:42:42 <ais523_> !bfjoust slow_rumble >+>+++++<<(-)*125>[]<((-)*128(+)*128)*10000
15:42:47 <EgoBot> Score for ais523__slow_rumble: 16.1
15:42:50 -!- lament has joined.
15:45:38 <ais523_> !bfjoust slow_rumble >+>+++++<<(-)*125>[]<((+)*120(.)*16(-)*120(.)*16)*10000
15:45:41 <EgoBot> Score for ais523__slow_rumble: 13.7
15:47:24 -!- ais523__ has joined.
15:48:35 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
15:49:59 -!- ais523_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
15:54:11 <elliott> ais523__: ridiculous fact of the week: screen is a program that compiles vt100 (and more) codes to vt100 codes
15:54:27 -!- ais523__ has changed nick to ais523_.
15:54:30 <elliott> (it's literally a terminal emulator that only has a terminal output, which is just hilarious)
15:55:03 <Gregor> And yet every time I say it would be nice to have a graphical frontend for screen, people say "durp you mean konsole lololol"
15:55:33 <elliott> Gregor: Well, yeah, they're fairly correct :P
15:55:50 <elliott> In that screen isn't all that special, it just happens to be the most full-featured terminal as far as organisation goes
15:55:55 <Gregor> elliott: The point is if it was a graphical frontend for screen, I could DETACH IT, leave, then screen -r from SSH
15:56:03 <elliott> quintopia: "I wrote a Python compiler. It takes a Python program and outputs the same Python program"
15:56:04 <Gregor> Why people don't get that that's the whole fucking benefit of screen is beyond me.
15:56:05 <Ilari> APNIC up 0.03: 512+3x256 to Australia, 3x128k+64k+2x256 to China, 256+/48+/32 to Hong Kong, 128k+32k to India, 1k to Philippines.
15:56:12 <elliott> "But it goes through an AST in-between, and does all kinds of analysis on it"
15:56:16 <elliott> "Then spits out the original AST"
15:56:29 <Ilari> Apparently, APNIC released resevations on reseved blocks.
15:57:02 <Gregor> And yeah, you're damn right the GUI would basically be like konsole. Except then, you could actually get to your consoles without friggin' VNC
15:57:10 <Gregor> DAMN YOU LIBC.SO RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
15:57:42 <quintopia> i use screen locally...why would you need vnc to use it. i am tres confused by gregor's complaints
15:58:15 <quintopia> also, i am confused why people think the ability to detach terminal sessions from terminals is the only purpose of screen
15:58:16 <Gregor> quintopia: What I want is a graphical frontend for screen. Just something a little bit nicer than running screen in xterm, that can show me which screens are open in a tab-like layout etc.
15:58:34 <Gregor> quintopia: To me, having multiple screens and being able to detach are of equal benefit.
15:59:13 <Gregor> And yet it doesn't exist? Why? Because if you mention the possibility, people say "lol just use konsole durp"
15:59:43 <ais523_> Ilari: what were they reserved for? emergencies?
15:59:46 <elliott> Gregor: Also because that's work.
15:59:57 <quintopia> i imagine a trivial modification to konsole would be exactly what you want though
15:59:58 <ais523_> and were they used for that purpose?
16:00:03 <ais523_> or just to delay ipv4 meltdown another few days?
16:01:05 <Gregor> quintopia: Trivial except it has to speak the screen protocol :P
16:01:25 <Ilari> I think those blocks were considered too polluted before or something like that.
16:03:04 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:03:04 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
16:03:04 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:06:56 -!- asiekierka has joined.
16:08:43 <ais523_> !bfjoust consistency http://sprunge.us/JJcX.
16:08:47 <EgoBot> Score for ais523__consistency: 4.2
16:08:51 <ais523_> !bfjoust consistency http://sprunge.us/JJcX
16:08:55 <EgoBot> Score for ais523__consistency: 0.0
16:09:10 <Deewiant> parse error: maximum [] nesting depth exceeded
16:09:28 <ais523_> that program doesn't abbreviate using {}
16:09:36 <ais523_> let me shorten it a bit in the hope that helps
16:09:47 <ais523_> (what is the maximum depth?)
16:09:48 <Deewiant> Somebody hasn't heard of the ZOI rule
16:10:04 <elliott> Deewiant: Somebody hasn't done dynamic memory allocation in C
16:10:15 <elliott> seriously though, wtf, that's only like hundreds of nestings :)
16:10:22 <Deewiant> Maybe they should learn how to do it then
16:10:40 <elliott> Deewiant: I was referring to you
16:10:51 <Deewiant> elliott: I know, I turned it around on you
16:11:00 <elliott> Deewiant: But then I pedanticed you because fuck lsdkf
16:11:03 <Deewiant> I don't find it much of a pain
16:11:23 <ais523_> !bfjoust http://sprunge.us/ghaP
16:11:24 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
16:11:30 <ais523_> !bfjoust consistency http://sprunge.us/ghaP
16:11:34 <EgoBot> Score for ais523__consistency: 0.0
16:11:44 <elliott> hmm, i wonder if spending the money on hardware to mine bitcoins pays off :)
16:11:51 <ais523_> blecch, that's 999 nestings
16:12:05 <ais523_> fizzie! what's the [] nesting limit in your BF Joust interps?
16:12:20 <ais523_> Deewiant: if you can think of a way to condense that using {}, I'd like to hear it
16:12:37 <Deewiant> Heh, you have a different (.) count each time
16:13:04 <Deewiant> Right, I just didn't really look at the program before
16:13:47 <elliott> ais523_: honestly, we should really just embed some TC-if-not-for-limited-steps language into the bf joust interps
16:13:53 <ais523_> 256 (insert interrobang here)
16:14:00 <elliott> so we don't have to say "i couldn't use the macro because ..."
16:14:11 <ais523_> that's not even enough to count how long a two-cycle clear takes
16:14:12 <elliott> i used the max cycle count :)
16:14:29 <elliott> well that's what you get for shoddy second-class joust software!!!!!!
16:14:55 <ais523_> anyway, I'm vaguely in favour of limiting the maximum [] nesting depth, but it should count depth post-%-expansion, not pre-
16:15:28 <elliott> (OK, so you should allocate something that big with malloc, but it shouldn't need reallocing afterwards.)
16:15:37 <elliott> (Since such a program would hit the cycle limit.)
16:15:51 <elliott> ais523_: not a fan of my embed-a-tc-language idea?
16:16:16 <ais523_> elliott: it'd make it too easy to put a PRNG in there and pretty much defeat defence forever and ultimately
16:16:33 <elliott> ais523_: err, no outside input
16:16:38 <elliott> so it'd be a prng with a fixed seed
16:16:48 <elliott> ais523_: it'd not be anything you couldn't preprocess manually before submitting
16:17:06 <ais523_> even a fixed-seed PRNG would be enough
16:17:11 <elliott> anyway, if the language was made esoteric enough, a prng could be a massive achievement :)
16:17:15 <elliott> ais523_: then you can do that today
16:17:28 <ais523_> except you can't, because it doesn't abbreviate
16:17:45 <elliott> hmm, i wonder if some govts will try cracking down on bitcoin
16:17:51 <ais523_> haha, I put the paren in the wrong place
16:17:59 <ais523_> elliott: yes if you want it to not be terabytes long
16:18:37 <quintopia> i was working on a macro preprocessor for bfj before the break...lemme see how much free time i have...
16:18:53 <elliott> "In February 2011, the coverage at Slashdot and the subsequent Slashdot effect affected the value of the bitcoin"
16:19:05 <elliott> we are finally in a world where slashdot can affect the value of the money in your pocket
16:19:24 <ais523_> I just don't see why people consider bitcoins valuable at all
16:19:28 <elliott> but it does have this gem: [16][17][citation needed]
16:19:31 <elliott> ais523_: because they're scarce
16:19:42 <elliott> ais523_: why do you consider $insert_fiat_currency_here valuable?
16:19:42 <ais523_> so? that doesn't make them useful in any way
16:19:55 <elliott> ais523_: ok, can i have $1mil?
16:19:58 <elliott> obviously it's not valuable
16:20:01 <ais523_> elliott: fiat currencies are only valuable as long as you can redeem them for something
16:20:08 <elliott> ais523_: you can redeem bitcoins for real-world cash
16:20:12 <elliott> and physical goods are sold in it
16:20:14 <ais523_> yes, and that makes no sense
16:20:22 <elliott> ...this is a circular argument
16:20:28 <elliott> it's valuable because it's scarce.
16:20:55 <ais523_> elliott: yes, that's a circular argument
16:20:56 <elliott> and it's valuable because there's a market using it.
16:21:03 <ais523_> the whole idea of fiat currencies are based on circular arguments
16:21:15 <ais523_> however, if sufficiently many other people believe something's valuable, it's valuable for that reason
16:21:22 <ais523_> which is the only reason fiat currencies work
16:21:34 <elliott> ... it's not irrational to believe in the value of a fiat currency
16:22:15 <ais523_> woah: http://sprunge.us/gZaC
16:22:28 <ais523_> I think it's successfully locking slowpoke, at least on some tape lengths
16:22:47 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
16:23:29 <ais523_> looks to be tape length 13 and up, both polarities
16:23:44 <ais523_> if I replaced the (.)*224 with a full-tape clear, it'd probably a) win, and b) be megabytes long
16:24:12 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:25:53 <ais523_> but an inline clear wouldn't work in that context
16:28:53 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
16:31:06 -!- elliott has joined.
16:33:19 <ais523_> elliott (in case you missed it): <ais523_> whoa: http://sprunge.us/gZaC <ais523_> I think it's successfully locking slowpoke, at least on some tape lengths
16:33:29 <ais523_> so looks like slowpoke is defendable after all
16:35:44 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:37:32 <ais523_> I shall have to find a Pokémon that's good at beating Slowpoke and name the final program after that
16:38:06 <ais523_> also the name of a Pokémon
16:38:18 <ais523_> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies#2011
16:39:35 <elliott> pokemon good at beating slowpoke
16:40:06 <elliott> ais523_: I demand you find a program that manages to win by doing absolutely nothing, and call it magikarp
16:40:15 <elliott> (Or close to absolutely nothing)
16:40:22 <elliott> (It can, say, splash around a bit)
16:40:29 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:40:37 <ais523_> Magikarp @ Focus Sash = Swift Swim: Splash / Tackle / Flail / Bounce
16:40:43 <ais523_> best Magikarp build in existence
16:40:54 <ais523_> (there's not a lot Magikarp can do, so finding the perfect build for it was really easy)
16:41:00 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:41:31 <ais523_> (also, there's at least one video on YouTube of someone sweeping an entire enemy Ubers team with that Magikarp build, although he had to try against hundreds of opponents before he found one that fell for it)
16:42:42 <ais523_> wow, defend10 was a 2011 program? time goes by so quickly
16:44:00 <ais523_> it was earlier this year, and yet it seems like aeons ago
16:44:29 <oklopol> idgi, if it seems like aeons ago, hasn't time moved slowly?
16:44:36 <oklopol> i think that's what people usually mean
16:45:09 <elliott> time moves quickly to allow lots of things to happen in it
16:45:12 <elliott> iguess is ais523_'s meaning
16:46:30 <oklopol> well yes i'm sure "time goes quickly" can be interpreted both ways
16:46:35 <oklopol> but i've never heard it used in that meaning
16:46:38 <elliott> what is it in the games with those trainers
16:46:42 <elliott> who only ever have magikarp with only splash
16:46:48 <elliott> and they insist on battling you to the death
16:46:56 <elliott> what kind of sick pleasure do they get out of that
16:47:40 <oklopol> maybe it's the magikarp who's getting pleasure
16:47:58 <elliott> hey it's world backup day, ill ceberate by not backuping
16:48:47 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
16:49:07 <elliott> oh cool, tomorrow is internet jackass day, but I'll be sleeping
16:49:13 <elliott> when all the stupid is stupiding
16:49:15 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
16:49:30 <oklopol> there is an internet jackass day?
16:49:37 <ais523_> elliott: I have three things planned for it
16:49:40 <oklopol> i'll o from morning till dawn
16:49:41 <ais523_> one is a C-INTERCAL release
16:49:56 <ais523_> oklopol: write a script to do that
16:50:01 <ais523_> and also, that's a completely valid time period
16:50:12 <elliott> ais523_: SO WHAT ARE THE OTHER TWO THINGS DON'T LEAVE US HANGING
16:50:17 <oklopol> i would never flood by script
16:50:33 <ais523_> elliott: at least one of the other two is a secret
16:50:37 <ais523_> and the other one isn't finished yet
16:50:43 <elliott> ais523_: you're so boring.
16:51:41 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
16:51:57 <oklopol> actually i'm taking today off work so i suppose i really could o all day
16:52:34 <elliott> okokokokokokokokokokokokoko
16:53:00 <elliott> i love our liberal attitude towards spam
16:53:22 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
16:53:34 <elliott> i like how that was basically me and ais fucking up your perfect oko slopes
16:53:39 <oklopol> ukukukukukukukukukukukukuukukuku
16:54:20 <oklopol> life is full of them imperfections
16:55:41 <Vorpal> sorry, won't interrupt you again
16:58:14 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/10-best-alternative-operating-systems-934484
17:00:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: lol dexos, that guy is/was on the osdev forum
17:00:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: hey it has inferno on it
17:00:38 <elliott> i like how they illustrate openbsd with the pig-ugly default fvwm though
17:00:42 <elliott> SO SECURE UGLINESS IS MANDATED
17:01:10 <elliott> http://aros.sourceforge.net/images/kittymascot.png
17:01:37 <elliott> 6. LoseThos supports multicore.
17:01:45 <elliott> 2. How could you not list LoseThos? Google search "64-bit operating system" and what's the first altewrnative OS you see?
17:01:45 <elliott> Read more: http://www.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/10-best-alternative-operating-systems-934484#ixzz1ICJ6yWRE
17:04:13 -!- cal153 has joined.
17:04:18 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I'm guessing Inferno implements some subset of @.
17:04:32 <elliott> Literally based on Plan 9.
17:08:31 -!- copumpkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:27:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:27:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:31:31 <impomatic> No mention of Menuet http://www.menuetos.net ?
17:32:01 <Gregor> 3) Redistribution, reverse engineering, disassembly or decompilation
17:32:01 <Gregor> prohibited without permission from the copyright holders.
17:32:09 <impomatic> Retro OS looked interesting, but it's dead :-(
17:33:57 <impomatic> Of course Itsy-OS is probably the best OS ever, but I have a slight bias ;-)
17:34:14 <elliott> plz 2 be making post about @ so it becomes the internet famouses
17:34:46 <Gregor> elliott: It has to be at least a LITTLE BIT existent first :P
17:34:55 <elliott> i've written SEVERAL bootloaders
17:35:15 * Gregor goes up and down his checklist of necessary components, then shakes his head.
17:36:08 <elliott> 6. Code to jump to first bootloader
17:36:18 <elliott> ...I like how I skipped the fifth by accident
17:36:29 <Gregor> That's just not part of @
17:36:33 <Gregor> Has to be written for other reasons.
17:36:58 <elliott> @ has totally eliminated the antiquated notion of a fifth bootloader by replacing it with orthogonal hookers.
17:39:09 <elliott> impomatic: btw why does itsy-os even have a memory allocator :D
17:42:03 <elliott> Why is aptitude so slow nowadays X_X
17:42:27 <impomatic> elliott: I just thought it belongs in the kernel. It'll have process management and ipc soon. Then I'll work on the Forth again :-)
17:42:58 <elliott> impomatic: All a kernel needs is something to load some bytes from a disk and jump to them, plus a keyboard interrupt! :-P
17:43:05 <impomatic> I'll port it to the MSP430 as soon as my free devboard arrives
17:43:22 <Gregor> elliott: Why does it need a keyboard interrupt?
17:43:24 -!- copumpkin has joined.
17:43:45 <Gregor> elliott: That COULD be implemented by whatever your default init/shell/whatever program is.
17:44:02 <Gregor> elliott: All it needs is to be able to load that program :P
17:44:11 <elliott> Gregor: That's true... but then it'd just be something that loads some FAT-12 (or whatever) bytes and jumps to them.
17:44:17 <elliott> And it'd have to have a default program.
17:44:21 <elliott> Which the OS would not really function without.
17:44:24 <elliott> So it'd just be a not-even-kernel.
17:44:26 <Gregor> AKA a bootloader? <trollface/>
17:44:46 <elliott> So for honesty, an OS is a FAT-12 loader, a keyboard interrupt, and a tiny prompt using the two :P
17:47:27 <impomatic> I have a loader that finds a file on FAT-12 or FAT-16 disks. I need to make it work with FAT-32 at some point.
17:47:57 <elliott> Who needs this "FAT-32" of which you speak
17:48:18 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: COME TO THE DORK SIDE
17:49:02 <Gregor> Using the GIMP /is/ coming to the dork side :P
17:51:20 <Gregor> I submit http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31917308&l=75ffb3329d&id=1055580469 as evidence.
17:54:37 <elliott> * Phantom_Hoover expertly defects blame
17:55:17 <Phantom_Hoover> * elliott fails to detect joke, attempts to cover for self
17:55:44 <Gregor> SO locked in your matrices of solidity.
17:56:10 -!- _MERLiN_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:56:36 <elliott> (Gregor's term for being straight)
17:56:54 <Gregor> HALP without _MERLiN_ what shall we do?!
17:56:59 -!- _MERLiN_ has joined.
17:57:24 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Click. Shift-click.
17:57:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: try inserting anti retard pills into ur miiin`d
17:57:47 <elliott> i should make a keyboard macro that inputs my password so i don't have to type it out for sudo
17:58:03 <oklopol> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
17:58:21 <elliott> oklopol: it's like conversational masturbation
17:58:37 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> I cannot work out to draw a *line*. <-- which software?
18:00:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well gimp is not a vector graphics program, depending on what you want to do, something like inkscape might be better. However to force a straight line I think it is as Gregor said above.
18:00:47 <Vorpal> doesn't* make that much sense
18:01:12 <Vorpal> it has the advantage of being quick to use once you know it however
18:05:57 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to radicalpumpkin.
18:06:31 <elliott> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
18:07:04 <elliott> radicalpumpkin: in the spirit of http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_livqq7q0d11qitcsyo1_500.png and radical language reform
18:07:08 <elliott> I propose you become radicalananas
18:28:34 <Gregor> You are made of so much fail :P
18:29:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, ZOMG HE CAN'T USE A NOTORIOUSLY UNINTUITIVE PIECE OF SOFTWARE
18:30:04 <elliott> EVERY SOFTWARE EVER has layers.
18:33:28 <Gregor> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31917308&l=75ffb3329d&id=1055580469 <-- this may not be the greatest shooping ever, but I made it in the GIMP.
18:34:14 <elliott> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GaKaGwch0U)
18:35:06 <Gregor> What I really don't get is the people who don't get it AFTER seeing that >_<
18:35:22 <elliott> Also known as "people of lesser intelligence"
18:35:27 <elliott> Gregor: TBH it looks nothing like a gang fight :P
18:36:13 <Gregor> elliott: Hey, finding a gang fight backdrop was friggin' impossible
18:37:05 <Gregor> It just so happens that we only see one corner of the gang fight is all :P
18:37:19 <Gregor> The blog post that was from claims one of those people is dead, so that's a gang fight, right?
18:38:33 <Gregor> (That's right, I steal with SO LITTLE REMORSE)
18:39:04 <Gregor> elliott: Use I'm not at home :P
18:47:30 <oklopol> if possible, i find Gregor's picture even worse after hearing the song
18:48:49 <oklopol> the original singer has an incredibly ugly voice
18:49:20 <elliott> oklopol: um the ORIGINAL singer is bob dylan :|
18:49:28 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD2LRROpph0&feature=related
18:49:38 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FISHEO3gsM ;; the lyrics are deep philosophical poetry.
18:49:47 <elliott> Listen and you will understand.
18:50:15 <oklopol> and hy homo i meant the girl
18:50:38 <oklopol> now that i realize there's another homo rapping it up, maybe that's worth clarifying
18:53:33 <oklopol> the way dylan is doing this this is actually pretty decent
18:53:52 <elliott> sorry to break your heart, it's not actually dylan :(
18:54:01 <oklopol> well i don't care, it's funny done this way
18:54:05 <oklopol> i have no idea who dylan is
18:54:29 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:54:49 -!- cheater99 has joined.
18:55:29 <oklopol> the "partying partying yeeah" thing could not be more sarcastic
18:58:01 <oklopol> so is she really worthy of being compared to justin bieber?
18:58:05 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4vLhJuKHxg&feature=related
18:59:48 <elliott> oklopol: my brain can't really compare badnesses at such a low level
19:00:11 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF6LJ1BxEkc&feature=related <<< this guy here is totally locked in his matrix of solidity
19:00:46 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNe8eDLENSk i legit like this version
19:06:18 <oklopol> should've added some sorta low crackling sound when the black guy came and then even more treble in the chorus after
19:06:33 <elliott> just end it with white noise
19:09:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Ridiculous advert of the day: "Advice about girlfriend"
19:09:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Lest you think this is by some Russians, it is by Childline.
19:10:10 -!- _MERLiN_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:10:49 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Viu3ATQmYE4&NR=1 i agree with her
19:11:54 <oklopol> but i don't like licking girls' faces when they are wearing that pimple disappearance maker thing
19:12:18 -!- _MERLiN_ has joined.
19:13:11 <oklopol> youtube surfing is kinda gay, feels more like the cantor set than the real line
19:13:27 <oklopol> get it, because it's not path connected
19:18:43 <oklopol> well let e>0 be like really really small
19:18:53 <oklopol> consider two points x and y on the real line
19:19:26 <oklopol> you can like find points x = z_1, z_2, ..., y = z_k such that d(z_i, z_{i+1}) < e for all relevant i
19:19:47 <oklopol> due to the fact it's path connected, you can take a continuous path from x to y, just cut it into pieces
19:19:56 <oklopol> how about the cantor set then?
19:20:12 <oklopol> well no can do man, you can do e-jumps for hours and hours
19:20:18 <oklopol> and you'll never get farther than e away
19:20:34 <olsner> right, so that's what path-connected means for real numbers.. what's the cantor set?
19:21:07 <Phantom_Hoover> The one where you take out the middle third of a line?
19:21:12 <oklopol> well here i'm referring by cantor set to the symbolic dynamics version of reals, the infinite sequences over a finite alphabet with a certain metric that's not the same as for the usual reals
19:21:37 <oklopol> the metric is that you just see how many of the first symbols of x and y agree
19:21:51 <oklopol> so if you e-jump, you will just change a finite number of "digits" in the beginning
19:23:35 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWthNTQeWo8&feature=relmfu <<< i'm me!
19:24:21 <oklopol> why does that surprise you
19:25:48 <oklopol> for the last 20 years i have struggled with who i am. it's only now, that i have? the confidence to accept who i am, and what i can pass on to others. if eveyone gave a little bit of their heart to help other's, then the world would be a better place!
19:25:48 <oklopol> Keep doing what you are doing Arielle, as you put a smile on a lot of people's faces :D and for that, you and your video get 3 <3 <3 <3, from me :)
19:25:48 <olsner> because I expected something else, obviously
19:27:00 <Gregor> Actually if everyone gave a bit of their heart to help others, then a massive number of people would die from complications and the remainder mostly wouldn't live as long what with the missing bit of heart.
19:27:29 <Gregor> But then, maybe I'm just locked in my matrix of solidity.
19:27:37 <oklopol> we're talking about real issues here
19:29:52 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:31:03 -!- cheater00 has joined.
19:31:25 <Gregor> oklopol: Uhh, no, we're not talking about real issues here. You can't just decree that we are after talking about toal BS for an hour :P
19:31:35 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:31:52 <Gregor> This is #esoteric , after all.
19:32:02 <Gregor> The matrix of solidity.
19:32:07 <oklopol> umm, it's friday in like 2 hours here
19:32:22 <oklopol> i'm so going to break out from my matrix of solidity
19:32:29 -!- elliott_ has joined.
19:32:35 <oklopol> i mean for a while. i'm not superman.
19:32:38 <olsner> unsolidify the matrix of solidity?
19:32:47 <oklopol> Gregor: erm well figuratively.
19:33:50 <Gregor> Then I guess I'm still trapped *sobblecopter*
19:34:13 <oklopol> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
19:34:38 <Gregor> Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
19:34:44 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:51:36 <oerjan> <olsner> unsolidify the matrix of solidity?
19:51:52 <oerjan> dissolve it in ethanol, it's the finnish way
19:52:41 <Gregor> Spoken like someone locked within their matrix of solidity.
19:53:27 <Gregor> RIP Phantom_Hoover \ 2004-2011 \ He tried to escape his matrix of solidity
19:54:03 <Gregor> Surprised I figured out the correct year so easily?
19:54:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:57:05 <olsner> not just any random number, 2004!
19:57:29 -!- bauttar has joined.
19:57:36 -!- elliott_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:57:36 <Phantom_Hoover> WAIT I HAVE A BETTER IDEA FOR BREAKING THE MATRIX OF SOLIDITY
19:58:01 -!- bauttar has left.
20:01:55 <Phantom_Hoover> THERE WON'T BE TALK LIKE THAT WITH THE DEVICE POWERED UP
20:02:26 <Phantom_Hoover> SORRY FIZZIE AND DEEWIANT BUT YOUR LIVES ARE A LESSER CONCERN
20:13:08 <Deewiant> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ljFaKRTrI
20:15:45 -!- iconmaster_ has joined.
20:17:14 -!- iconmaster_ has quit (Client Quit).
20:17:20 <Deewiant> I was just noting that my life hasn't been measurably affected as of yet
20:17:44 -!- cheater- has joined.
20:18:56 <olsner> ooh, reached the bottom of my desk: found some terva leijona!
20:19:11 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:22:04 <Zwaarddijk> (preferrably a mixture of cheap cognac and ~vodka)
20:22:15 <olsner> I've only tried it with vodka
20:22:33 <Zwaarddijk> in finland there's this bottled product, "jaloviina" (ädelbrännvin)
20:22:47 <Zwaarddijk> which was cheap cognac for people thta couldn't afford the real thing
20:22:56 <Zwaarddijk> there's two varieties of it, * and ***
20:23:06 <Zwaarddijk> *** is three parts cognac, one part vodka, the other ... well, you can guess
20:28:45 <olsner> does the cognac do a lot compared to just mixing it with vodka?
20:30:54 <Zwaarddijk> I think you can get jaloviina on the ferries?
20:31:05 <olsner> I dunno, I don't recognize it
20:31:39 <olsner> I'll try to remember it for next time :)
20:31:41 <Zwaarddijk> it does change the flavour a bit, not revolutionarily much but somewhat
20:32:12 <oklopol> swor-ditch: were you doing a master's or a bachelor's in complexity theory
20:34:49 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
20:36:49 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:36:58 <oklopol> hey i just realized that's what your nick means
20:37:28 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
20:39:11 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: so try figure out what it's in Finnish then?
20:39:14 <oklopol> well i kind of assumed because it doesn't really sound like a research topic but a reading topic
20:39:28 <oklopol> the utu it department rarely gives out topics that interesting
20:39:48 <oklopol> more like http - the way of the future or an elephant?
20:39:55 <Zwaarddijk> our prof Ion Petre had it as one suggestion, but most of the suggestions were way more boring
20:40:09 <oklopol> "<Zwaarddijk> oklopol: so try figure out what it's in Finnish then?" what?
20:41:04 <oklopol> my bachelor's thesis at the it dep was pretty lame and to quote my supervisor, i could've easily passed it as a master's thesis
20:41:19 <Zwaarddijk> https://xprog28.cs.abo.fi/ro.nsf/141b8735bd22ff31c225700600473a01/3ee2c54d808c7ed3c22577180023004d/$FILE/KNrubriker2011.pdf
20:41:33 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: my nick is a somewhat bad translation of my surname
20:41:57 <oklopol> you mean it actually means something slightly different?
20:42:17 <oklopol> i have no idea what language Zwaarddijk could be
20:42:29 <Zwaarddijk> but now it means the inverse of a ditch
20:42:39 <Zwaarddijk> the mound of dirt you leave on one side while digging the ditch
20:42:53 <oerjan> the way of an elephant
20:43:09 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:43:24 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: dutch, because I figured that's the only other lang to use -ditch (or something similar) as a suffix in surnames
20:43:36 <oklopol> oh i actually figured it might be dutch because of dijk
20:43:45 <oklopol> but zwaard sounded a bit too... african
20:44:23 <oklopol> ...actually maybe it reminded me of africa because of that copy of dutch they speak in africa
20:44:24 -!- _MERLiN_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:45:11 -!- _MERLiN_ has joined.
20:47:29 <fizzie> Heh, Interspeech 2011 paper submission deadline was supposed to be today, and there was a note that it will not be extended as the paper submission system needs to shut down for "scheduled maintenance that cannot be rescheduled".
20:47:46 <fizzie> Now in place of that note there is "Due to the overwhelming number of requests, the INTERSPEECH 2011 Technical Commitee decided to allow authors to "upload" their final paper version till April 7th in the "check the status page" of the paper submission system, but a draft version "must" be submitted by March 31st. "
20:48:47 <oerjan> murphy's law means that if they _had_ insisted on the deadline, their computers would have crashed a day early.
20:49:27 <fizzie> Every conference seems to every time do the extension thing, at least a day or two, usually a week.
20:49:42 <fizzie> Just when I'm all "ah, now I don't need to think about this stuff any longer, the deadline's past".
20:49:57 <oklopol> Zwaarddijk: based on the first few i read, your worst topics are better than utu's worst
20:50:51 <fizzie> Also their very stupid animated "sponsors" mini-banner thing is done as a Java applet, and the plugin takes 300 megabytes of real memory to shuffle those 120x60 banners around.
20:51:00 <fizzie> "Applet by Gokhan Dagli,www.appletcollection.com"
20:51:45 <oklopol> i haven't quite grasped to point of conferences yet
20:52:45 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: otoh, it isn't mandatory to pick any topic out of those
20:52:53 <Zwaarddijk> surely you can also pick other topics?
20:52:55 <fizzie> It's a publication venue, and the generation of publications (that "count", i.e. are peer-reviewed to some degree) is the ultimate goal of all.
20:53:00 <oklopol> Zwaarddijk: actually just after i stopped reading, topics started getting pretty bleh
20:53:13 <oklopol> Zwaarddijk: you can, and i did
20:53:20 <Zwaarddijk> yeah I'd say most of those are pretty bleh
20:53:29 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:53:38 <oklopol> well the biocomputing stuff sounds like it could be interesting
20:53:49 <oklopol> and the quantum stuff why not
20:54:10 <oerjan> "make your own godzilla bio-robot!"
20:54:13 <oklopol> also if you haven't done simulated annealing and other shit like that to death when you were 5, that's certainly fun stuff as well
20:54:15 <Zwaarddijk> all of those were ion petre's stuff no?
20:54:56 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
20:55:03 <Zwaarddijk> he's the only guy in the entire department to have interesting stuff
20:55:11 <Zwaarddijk> I think patrick sibelius could do interesting stuff too if he wanted
20:55:22 <Zwaarddijk> (he probably knows complexity science just as well as petre)
20:55:29 <oerjan> the real godzilla was of course just a japanese college project with too many programming bugs
20:55:39 <Zwaarddijk> but he just suggested topics like "the history of formal logics"
20:56:10 <oklopol> EN KORT HISTORIK VER PREDIKATLOGIKEN (ven mjlig som gradu) xD
20:56:41 <oklopol> that's one cool topic for a cs master's thesis :D
20:57:14 <Zwaarddijk> and that guy really knows his logic and formal languages and complexity shit.
20:57:27 <Zwaarddijk> I just think he's lazy when it comes to advising
20:57:27 <oerjan> a complex, but formal guy
20:58:49 <oklopol> advising required for bachelor's: browse the thing when it's done.
21:04:10 <Zwaarddijk> so ... I guess an additional five minutes there
21:04:22 <oklopol> yes i was totally oversimplifying
21:04:32 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:04:36 <Zwaarddijk> no really, I haven't really interacted with him since then at all?
21:04:50 <Zwaarddijk> I figure maybe I should have but ... meh
21:05:33 <fizzie> "Ion Petre" sounds like a superhero.
21:05:34 <oklopol> i didn't really have any interaction where we actually talked about the contents of my bachelor's thesis
21:06:55 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
21:10:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:11:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:13:13 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.5.18/20110319140258]).
21:14:50 -!- augur has joined.
21:18:49 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: that's a matter of time before that's the rig that hardcore gamers want, i can just believe that :)
21:18:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:19:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:19:28 -!- _MERLiN_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:19:41 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:25:24 <oerjan> magic enhanced reverse living intelligent node
21:30:33 -!- augur has joined.
21:31:32 <fizzie> Sounds a bit like VALIS.
21:35:08 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:35:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:39:25 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:44:28 -!- cpressey has joined.
21:48:08 <fizzie> Sounds libc.so-related.
21:48:48 -!- augur has joined.
21:49:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:50:17 <Gregor> fizzie: That's because it is!
21:50:28 <Gregor> fizzie: I'm in the lead but the margin between the current value and my max is INSUFFICIENT
21:50:35 <fizzie> Ha, knew it. Nothing else gets you so... how is it that they say, hot and bothered?
21:51:53 -!- cheater00 has joined.
21:52:00 <Gregor> I'm continuing to bother #esoteric because ZERO people from this channel have helped me out here :P
21:52:57 <fizzie> Yes, we never put our money where our mouth is.
21:53:28 <Gregor> Actually since in this case everybody's just said "You ain't got a chance in hell LOLOLOL" you're putting your money exactly where your mouth is.
21:53:44 <Gregor> s/everybody/everybody in this channel/
21:54:11 <oklopol> i would certainly give you money if you were doing something even remotely interesting
21:54:23 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:54:23 <oklopol> like buying the vierergruppe
21:54:25 <fizzie> Ack pthbbth bleh, dirty money in mouth.
21:54:26 <Gregor> oklopol: <libc symbol>@libc.so email addresses ARE interesting
21:55:13 <oerjan> fizzie: but but, cocaine!
21:55:22 <Gregor> oklopol: If they're not interested in them, then you're made of FAIL
21:55:58 <oklopol> i'm tired of arguing with you ->
21:56:16 <cpressey> < Gregor> I'm continuing to bother #esoteric because ZERO people from this channel have helped me out here :P
21:56:37 <cpressey> one concludes that perhaps libc isn't very esoteric
21:56:45 <Gregor> Hahaha, that is true :P
21:57:04 <oklopol> Gregor: you're right, maybe it was more like a flamewar
21:57:05 <Gregor> But I don't want to harass ##unix , I don't know them and they'd probably yell at me :P
21:57:36 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:58:31 -!- myndzi has joined.
21:58:51 -!- wareya_ has joined.
22:00:09 -!- augur has joined.
22:01:41 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:01:55 -!- Gregor has changed nick to libc\x2Eso.
22:08:43 <cpressey> oh, "dleep" was a typo for "sleep"
22:09:02 <cpressey> i didn't figure it out until i saw the arrow on the next line
22:09:31 <libc\x2Eso> It was a typo of oklokloklokloklokloklokloklokloklokloklokloklokloklokloklvosleep
22:09:32 <oerjan> maybe it was just a glitch in oklopol's robotic circuits
22:09:51 <libc\x2Eso> That 'v', however, was a typo of ctrl+v :P
22:09:56 <cpressey> it does sound like the kind of sound a glitching robot circuit would make
22:10:52 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
22:11:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:11:07 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
22:13:38 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:23:26 -!- Lymia has joined.
22:31:21 <libc\x2Eso> OH GOD THE AUCTION SITE IS ERRORING OUT
22:31:54 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
22:32:08 <oerjan> have you entered that "extend 24 hours at a time" period yet?
22:32:27 <oerjan> that's when you can _really_ start stressing
22:32:50 <libc\x2Eso> I will have so much stress that it kills people near me at that time :P
22:41:42 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:41:44 <cpressey> actually "stressing" is perfectly grammatical in modern english
22:41:55 -!- EgoBot has joined.
22:42:28 <cpressey> also, it looks like the next four languages to be supported in yoob will be: SMETANA, Qdeql, Sceql, and Ale, for no good reason.
22:42:33 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:05:05 -!- augur has joined.
23:11:58 -!- pumpkin has joined.
23:15:12 -!- radicalpumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:22:19 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:37:52 -!- cheater- has joined.
23:40:47 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:40:50 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:44:56 -!- augur has joined.
23:46:27 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:54:05 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:56:41 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
23:56:41 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
23:56:41 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
23:59:10 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:59:11 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.