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00:03:07 <libc\x2Eso> Well that's the scariest freenode /notice I've ever seen :P
00:03:55 <oerjan> eek. well it _is_ on freenode's own blog...
00:04:38 <oerjan> (not to mention one other obvious fact)
00:04:56 -!- TLUL has joined.
00:04:57 <libc\x2Eso> I haven't even managed to load the damned blog page yet.
00:05:10 <libc\x2Eso> It's almost assuredly an April fool's day prank.
00:05:26 <libc\x2Eso> I don't want a network to love me that much :P
00:05:32 <oerjan> well since everyone else got it at the same time...
00:06:11 <libc\x2Eso> Is it the blog that's slow or my connection?
00:06:21 <oerjan> it didn't load for me either
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00:06:53 <oerjan> as i said, everyone on freenode obviously got the notice near simultaneously
00:07:09 <oerjan> (it's currently 0:06 UTC)
00:08:51 * oerjan officially declares antialiasing to be evil http://www.darthsanddroids.net/heists/0050.html
00:11:18 <oerjan> also, that is probably one of the most meta comics, ever
00:13:01 <oerjan> hm they've forgotten the favicon this time
00:15:19 * Sgeo huggles nyud.net
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00:17:28 <oerjan> why the heck does neither nyud.net nor www.nyud.net work
00:18:09 <libc\x2Eso> oerjan: Because you don't support the libc.so fund :P
00:18:27 <Sgeo> http://blog.freenode.net.nyud.net/2011/04/important-service-announcement-regarding-defocus/ worked for me
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00:19:03 <oerjan> Sgeo: yes but that's rather useless for someone who wants to visit the nyud.net homepage to find out exactly what their redirection syntax _was_ again
00:19:39 <oerjan> you bastard nerds and your photographic command syntax memory
00:20:22 <oerjan> well that wasn't precisely fast either...
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01:40:47 <variable> "(-------------------------" is
01:41:04 <variable> libc\x2Eso: not this network. I have seen this before
01:41:15 <libc\x2Eso> Yeah, it could certainly be valid elsewhere.
01:41:41 <variable> libc\x2Eso: nearly as bad: "TheLongestNamePossibleOnThisServer"
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06:43:33 <oerjan> http://mail.google.com/mail/help/motion.html
06:45:47 <fizzie> Oh, it's that day again.
06:47:04 <oerjan> i see reddit's r/circlejerk took some inspiration from r/trees
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07:07:44 <fizzie> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>
07:15:02 <quintopia> is there a name for the type of symmetry "the distance from a fixed center point to the boundary of the shape is the same in both direction x and -x for all choices of vector x"?
07:23:11 <oerjan> no, radial is stronger
07:23:34 <oerjan> it's 180 degree rotational symmetry, don't recall if it has a shorter name
07:24:30 <lament> how is radial stronger?
07:25:05 <oerjan> radial is rotation by any angle, or at least a smaller one...
07:25:30 <lament> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetry_%28physical_attractiveness%29
07:25:42 <lament> right and the angle depends on the type of symmetry
07:26:40 <oerjan> 2-fold rotational symmetry, says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotational_symmetry
07:27:55 <lament> i think radial symmetry just isn't a mathematical term
07:28:19 <fizzie> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radial_symmetry lists 5-fold rotational symmetry as a type of radial symmetry.
07:28:27 <oerjan> yeah it seemed to be more biological
07:29:19 <fizzie> I did sort of assume that "radial symmetry" would mean "depends only on distance", purely based on the name, but I guess it's not a real thing.
07:30:58 <lament> it's certainly a real thing
07:31:11 <oerjan> that's circular or spherical
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07:41:30 <oerjan> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5508110/why-is-this-program-erroneously-rejected-by-three-c-compilers
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07:54:38 <olsner> wild guess: because it's wrong?
07:55:50 <oerjan> a very plausible guess. but incorrect.
08:00:05 <olsner> right, the poster just failed to encode it in the format expected by the compilers
08:00:48 <oerjan> ...i think elliott must be right about those swedes.
08:03:20 <olsner> I liked the second answer, though it was slightly botched by trying to talk about "text files"
08:23:09 <fizzie> ISO/IEC 14882:1998(E), 2.1p1 subclause 1: "Physical source file characters are mapped, in an implementation-defined manner, to the basic source character set --"; if he's read the standard twice in its entirety already, I would expect him to have noticed this part and realize you can't really expect to be able to write a program based on the standard alone, without considering the implementation.
08:27:34 <olsner> boring, haven't seen any likely april fool hoaxes yet
08:33:30 <fizzie> Our staff@ mailing list got this: "Please find the Springer marketing campaign below. It seems you can get a 30% Springer author discount from registration fees at selected conferences with LNCS proceedings, but more importantly, you may get a conference review waiver coupon, which enables you to bypass the peer review process in some selected conferences and get an article published directly. This is a nice offer especially for students. See details below."
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08:45:31 <fizzie> coppro: Context: april fool hoaxes.
08:55:54 <oklopol> '<cpressey> oh, "dleep" was a typo for "sleep"' not a typo
08:56:20 <oklopol> although i'm not sure that's relevant
09:01:02 <oklopol> "This is a nice offer especially for students." :D
09:01:26 <oklopol> thank god i didn't go to work today, i had no idea it's april already
09:13:31 <coppro> the math society at UW just adopted a new set of bylaws yesterday. I sent an email out to the mailing list at about 1:30 saying that the version I'd published earlier was wrong and due to some procedural technicalities, we had to adopt this alternate version. it's a work of comedy
09:34:14 <Ilari> DNSSEC going nowhere again: .com is now DNSSEC-signed. :-)
09:35:47 <Deewiant> Anybody got the freenode prize yet?
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10:31:39 <fizzie> Ilari: Do you happen to know how much breaks if you turn DNSSEC validation on? (I mean in the usual way where "insecure" zones are allowed, but if a zone has a DS in the parent then it will need to be properly working all the way down.)
10:34:32 <Ilari> Well, I don't hit that a wide variety of sites, but it seems that very little breaks.
10:35:23 <fizzie> Mhm. Well, I guess that might be either because everyone's doing DNSSEC right, or because no-one's doing DNSSEC at all.
10:36:36 <Ilari> Well, not many are doing DNSSEC, but virtually all that are are doing it right.
10:44:18 <Ilari> 65 TLDs have TAs in the root zone (zone serial appears to be 2011040100).
11:01:51 <fizzie> .fi root has been DNSSEC-signed since late 2010, but if I understood correctly it should now be possible to do DS "delegations" to actual zones too. (At least this newspost says after "31.3.")
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11:39:38 <ais523> hmm, I'm not entirely convinced it's even possible to do an April Fool's joke on Esolang
11:39:43 <ais523> it wouldn't look any different from the rest of the site
11:40:20 <elliott> 07:54:38: <olsner> wild guess: because it's wrong?
11:40:20 <elliott> 07:55:50: <oerjan> a very plausible guess. but incorrect.
11:40:20 <elliott> 08:00:05: <olsner> right, the poster just failed to encode it in the format expected by the compilers
11:40:20 <elliott> 08:00:48: <oerjan> ...i think elliott must be right about those swedes.
11:40:25 <elliott> oerjan: i concur in this case!
11:40:40 <ais523> what is elliott's idea about swedes?
11:40:50 <elliott> that they're all weird and crazy and should be avoided
11:41:04 <elliott> ais523: turn esolang into a site about tongues in which magick spelles are cast'e
11:41:19 <elliott> that's all i can think of :)
11:41:29 <oerjan> elliott: i take it you are also r/trees inspired?
11:41:30 <elliott> (diff) (hist) . . N Talk:Velato/; 05:01 . . (+169) . . 195.211.160.6 (Talk) (Unusually not mephitic forum!!!! Epilogue to bookmarks. To a countless extent wares resource. Greatly much admins)
11:42:13 -!- elliott has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
11:42:19 <oerjan> elliott: well i was referring to your AF suggestion for here
11:42:32 <elliott> oerjan: yes, that's where i saw you mentioning the /r/circlejerk//r/trees thing
11:42:40 <elliott> (yes, that's a slash separating two /r/ paths, problem?)
11:43:52 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/QlGpd.gif <-- this wins forever
11:43:59 <elliott> (on the stackoverflow question)
11:45:41 <elliott> as an expert in abusing ms paint for computational purposes >:D
11:46:30 <oerjan> what is that making? a piet program or something?
11:46:43 <elliott> oerjan: (or refresh if it gets cut off)
11:46:56 <oerjan> it's so damn slow on my computer
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11:47:06 <elliott> oerjan: download it then watch
11:48:15 <ais523> elliott: I take it that wasn't you doing that, given that you'd be unlikely to be using Windows Vista or 7
11:48:21 <ais523> (although that's not completely implausible0
11:48:21 <elliott> happy mailman mailing list reminder's day yesterday!
11:48:31 <elliott> ais523: indeed, it's from the stack overflow question that you may or may not have seen
11:48:46 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5508110/why-is-this-program-erroneously-rejected-by-three-c-compilers
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11:49:23 * elliott tries to think of a sufficiently funny question to join #r.trees and say
11:49:25 <ais523> elliott: did it have a BOM?
11:49:28 <ais523> I'm guessing from the URL
11:49:39 <ais523> oh, it's an image of a program
11:49:48 <elliott> it's a hand-crafted drawing!
11:50:08 <elliott> so the typography isn't as good as in the standard document, but C++ compilers can hardly expect such anal calligraphy!
11:50:17 <elliott> (This marks the first time the phrase "anal calligraphy" has ever been uttered.)
11:51:24 <elliott> ais523: so did esr insist on making the new C-INTERCAL release himself? :P
11:52:36 <ais523> I'll do it myself, a little later
11:52:46 <elliott> "Last time I chose to program in Python, because I love the language. But I used some Windows-specific libraries and some people were frustrated they could not see the program run on their machine. So this time I'm going to use Java. It's arguably less expressive than Python, but I know that the GUI and window interface is quite portable"
11:53:10 <elliott> (admittedly java.awt.Robot probably doesn't have a portable Python analogue)
11:55:40 <oerjan> <elliott> (This marks the first time the phrase "anal calligraphy" has ever been uttered.) <-- about 103 hits, says google
11:55:58 <elliott> oerjan, googling "anal calligraphy" since 2011
11:56:21 <elliott> "Buy a handmade custom "Anal" calligraphy wall scroll here!"
11:56:39 <oerjan> i don't _think_ i've done it before.
11:57:00 <oerjan> that phrase has at least two possible meanings, i note
11:57:40 <elliott> i don't have a reddit spore, i feel so inferior
11:58:08 <elliott> i don't get to type annoyingly :(
11:58:13 <oerjan> poor elliott, all jealous of I_RAPE_CATS
11:58:44 * elliott waits for someone who has never been on reddit to read this log
11:59:18 <oerjan> this surely was not the best time for him to have to defend his actions...
11:59:39 <elliott> have you seen his userpage?
11:59:42 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/user/I_RAPE_CATS
12:01:12 <elliott> "THERE IS A PRIZE. IT’S WORTH IT. HINT: MOTD."
12:01:22 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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12:01:35 <elliott> "VmlldyBwYWdlIHNvdXJjZSwgeW91bmcgZ3Jhc3Nob3BwZXIu"
12:01:40 <oerjan> is the april fool that there actually _is_ a prize?
12:02:14 <Deewiant> I couldn't tell what the next stage was about though, so I left it at that
12:03:04 <elliott> why am i helping you fuckers, i want @unicorn/ or whatever
12:03:28 <elliott> the blog post won't load now :)
12:03:43 <oerjan> how does I_RAPE_CATS manage to get _less_ mold? he had 53 before and someone claimed to have seen 54
12:03:54 <elliott> Deewiant: Sure (assuming it's the new one), thanks
12:04:10 <elliott> oerjan: or maybe you can spend KARMA to get rid of them :-D
12:04:15 <Deewiant> elliott: http://sprunge.us/HMGb
12:04:33 <oerjan> i was assuming they last for today...
12:04:38 <elliott> Looks like a trivial cipher
12:04:51 <elliott> OTOH this is close to my laziness limit
12:05:09 <elliott> I'll ask what the prize cloak is in #freenode :-D
12:08:00 <elliott> <qwebirc44173> they are throttling blog on purpose
12:08:00 <elliott> <qwebirc44173> to get attention
12:08:09 <elliott> wish this guy would shut up so my important question would get answered
12:11:09 <elliott> <keyUp> and all of us say something
12:11:10 <elliott> <keyUp> for aprill fools joke
12:11:10 <elliott> <keyUp> but we act serious
12:11:10 <elliott> <keyUp> but something bad hmm
12:11:10 <elliott> <Boydy> yeh good to see this is a great help channel
12:11:10 <elliott> <keyUp> i will say something and you ay yes i have heard
12:11:16 <elliott> <keyUp> what im doing here with kids omg
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12:21:24 <elliott> "Fanny scratching in 18th-century London's Cock Lane was so notorious that interested bystanders often blocked the street. It became the focus of a religious controversy between Methodists and orthodox Anglicans, and was reported on by celebrities of the period such as Samuel Johnson."
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12:23:29 <Phantom_Hoover> 21:52:00: <Gregor> I'm continuing to bother #esoteric because ZERO people from this channel have helped me out here :P
12:23:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, it's plausible APT Guy actually would have paid for an address.
12:25:51 <Phantom_Hoover> 16:56:27 <libc\x2Eso> Well that's the scariest freenode /notice I've ever seen :P
12:26:20 <elliott> So the BritClique so thoroughly dominates WP now that all the April Fool's humor on the front page are nothing but references to UK culture? I'm guessing the argument is "Well this is the english language wikipedia, I'm sure the german language WP has German references, etc. etc..." Sorry to inform you, but other people speak english too. As if it wasn't obvious. Jersey John (talk) 06:31, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
12:26:45 <elliott> "On another note, I'm quickly growing tired of the undue snarkiness and senseless arrogance of the Brit Clique, as I call them, here on Wiki... It's no wonder a bunch morons a few years back went and made Conservapedia. Not that I like that place either. Plus I'm banned from it... lol..." --[[User:Jros83]]
12:27:10 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I can't find that notice in the raw log for today or yesterday...
12:27:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Try hardesr.
12:27:49 <elliott> oerjan: what kind of horrific person gave wil wheaton 19 molds. WAS IT YOU?
12:28:01 <ais523> that's better than the toilet paper thing
12:28:10 <oerjan> elliott: i don't have a reddit account
12:28:27 <elliott> oerjan: well that's what you _would_ say isn't it.
12:28:40 <ais523> elliott: remember when the page about toilet paper orientation was discussed in #esoteric
12:28:46 <ais523> I said it might make a good april fool's FA
12:29:11 <elliott> ais523: wait, i've figured out a good esolang AF
12:29:13 <elliott> (diff) (hist) . . N Talk:Velato/; 05:01 . . (+169) . . 195.211.160.6 (Talk) (Unusually not mephitic forum!!!! Epilogue to bookmarks. To a countless extent wares resource. Greatly much admins)
12:29:25 <ais523> that's not a good AF at all
12:30:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, did I_RAPE_CATS actually manipulate that stupid video thing?
12:30:21 * elliott moves [[Fugue Compiler]]. As an April FOol's or something
12:30:43 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well at a minimum it appears he didn't choose it randomly as he was supposed to
12:30:43 <libc\x2Eso> FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
12:30:58 <libc\x2Eso> It's not over, but it's lookin' that way.
12:31:16 <elliott> libc\x2Eso: Put more money into it
12:31:25 <libc\x2Eso> elliott: I will, 24 hours before the end.
12:31:38 <elliott> libc\x2Eso: BUT THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE _EXPECTING_ YOU TO DO
12:31:53 <elliott> It's only been on for a couple of days :P
12:32:24 <ais523> also, I insist on parsing your nick as libc \x2 Eso
12:33:09 <elliott> http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=helvetica
12:33:32 <elliott> NOT FUNNY IN THE SLIGHTEST
12:35:25 <ais523> what's going on if you google "Helvetica"?
12:35:55 <elliott> ais523: open in your unrestricted browser
12:36:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, I nearly made an accidental April fool today.
12:37:37 <libc\x2Eso> <ais523> that's ridiculous // OK, seriously, are you the poorest man alive? X-D
12:37:54 <oerjan> ah comic sans gives the same
12:38:03 <ais523> libc\x2Eso: 500 is a very big number
12:38:06 <ais523> it's hard to even visualise
12:38:19 <elliott> 500 is trivial to visualise :P
12:38:34 <ais523> £500 would be overpriced for a new computer nowadays
12:38:40 <ais523> although with dollars it's more reasonable
12:38:43 <elliott> And libc\x2Eso is a privileged douchebag for thinking balking at spending half a thousand dollars on a domain name makes you the poorest man alive :P
12:39:11 <libc\x2Eso> It's 2/3rds of a plane ticket, somewhat less than one month's rent, considerably less than the sum of one month's bills.
12:39:41 <ais523> well, I consider plane travel so expensive that people who require it are insnae
12:39:50 <ais523> and people who reimburse plane travel costs more so
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12:41:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god Gregor's being an idiot about money again isn't he.
12:42:19 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, come to think of it, what *did* you do with that money you got from the bit of Wolfram's ego you heroically chipped off.
12:42:32 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: bought a laptop, and put the rest in the bank
12:42:32 * elliott tries to find a source download of the bitcoin client
12:42:40 <fizzie> Deewiant: http://p.zem.fi/d98k
12:42:58 <ais523> and lived off it for a few years
12:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, a laptop would barely *dent* the prize money you got.
12:43:47 <ais523> 400 out of 12000 is about 1/30
12:43:49 <ais523> that's more than just a dent
12:45:14 <libc\x2Eso> "My lovely horse, you're a pony no more" // Pony: Not a name for horse babies :P
12:45:59 <Phantom_Hoover> libc\x2Eso, you've presumably never seen Father Ted, being an American and all.
12:46:13 <oerjan> libc\x2Eso: i cry foal!
12:46:36 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: 30 dents don't normally completely destroy something
12:47:29 <libc\x2Eso> Phantom_Hoover: I'm a grad student. In the summers I usually intern here and there.
12:47:30 <Phantom_Hoover> You're a grad student, I thought they had, like, negative money.
12:47:54 <libc\x2Eso> I'm a grad student with fiscal responsibility, I have plenty of money. And yes, occasionally buying something nice for myself still factors into fiscal responsibility.
12:48:25 <libc\x2Eso> Since I don't own a Wii, a PS3 and an Xbox 360 (or any of them for that matter), the price some grad students pay to own all three easily covers libc.so right there :P
12:48:30 <elliott> Yes. Fiscal responsibility makes you rich. Nothing else.
12:48:42 * Phantom_Hoover recalls that Tom Scott is a student of some description and quite a bit younger than Gregor, and he had £500 to blow on something even stupider.
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12:49:16 <libc\x2Eso> elliott: I'm not rich, but fiscal responsibility keeps you well in the black when feasible.
12:49:25 <elliott> I didn't say you were rich.
12:49:38 <elliott> But purely being fiscally responsible is not nearly enough to be able to throw $500 for a novelty domain.
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12:50:31 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, in fairness, you are not really the one who I would trust to have the clearest grip on finance.
12:50:50 <libc\x2Eso> Fine, then I just fall into money. It rains from the sky because the Money Gods love me.
12:51:41 <Phantom_Hoover> s/Money Gods/parents/ and you have a plausible hypothesis...
12:52:38 <libc\x2Eso> And if it was there money, I sure as hell wouldn't be using it for libc.so :P
12:54:41 <fizzie> Deewiant: And regarding the previous, also http://p.zem.fi/xcxp
12:55:16 <elliott> Wow, I've gone at least two years without hearing yet another tedious Weebl & Bob reference.
12:55:22 <elliott> Thank you, fizzie, you broke my streka.
13:02:09 <Vorpal> <oerjan> libc\x2Eso: i cry foal! <-- sadly I was away when you said this, however had I been there, a pun about the current day would have been in order (hamming distance of 1 after all...)
13:02:57 <Vorpal> libc\x2Eso, so did you get the domain? Or is it still up for auction?
13:03:45 <libc\x2Eso> Vorpal: How do you manage to consistently be weeks out of date :P
13:04:27 <libc\x2Eso> Vorpal: It's been up for auction for weeks, the auction started on Sunday. Now it's at $575 and a chat room full of people who've never actually had a job or lived away from home are telling me it's not worth it.
13:05:56 <ais523> libc\x2Eso: because it isn't worth it
13:06:39 <elliott> i never said it wasn't worth it, what i said was something else entirely
13:06:42 <Phantom_Hoover> libc\x2Eso, yes, ais has never lived away from home or had a job.
13:06:52 -!- libc\x2Eso has changed nick to Gregor.
13:07:08 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I have a job at the moment
13:07:46 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, yes, that was sarcasm to show how stupid Gregor's statement was.
13:08:53 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28-1%29^%281%2F3%29
13:09:57 * elliott tries to figure out where bitcoin fits in the gnome hierarchy
13:10:06 <elliott> I guess wherever other financial programs go, but I don't know where that is
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13:43:27 <elliott> ais523: do you want a nice mold?
13:43:42 <Gregor> So, what awesomeness can I do with libdl.so? :(
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14:03:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, so you lost the auction, or you're going to lose it?
14:04:11 <Gregor> The auction hasn't ended and I'm not up to my max, but I project an extremely low chance of winning.
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14:26:20 <ais523> esr is definitely male, right?
14:26:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, my Facebook account seems to be haemorrhaging its backlog of unaccepted friend requests.
14:26:37 <ais523> seems I'm /that/ crazy about pronouns
14:28:55 <Gregor> ais523: Yeesh, Phantom_Hoover is SO pastiche.
14:29:04 <Gregor> Probably because he's locked in his matrix of solidity.
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14:53:12 <ais523> elliott_: too late, I already referred to her with a male pronoun!
14:53:40 <elliott_> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page
14:53:41 <Gregor> Eric, short for Erica.
14:53:47 <elliott_> also, nobody can look at the recent changes any more
14:53:53 <elliott_> also, comments on a postcard^W/msg only
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15:21:29 <Vorpal> hm I wonder if the urban dictionary redesign to look similar to wikipedia is special for today...
15:21:44 <Vorpal> I have no idea if it been this for long
15:24:13 <Vorpal> the xkcd 3D trick with javascript looks quite cool
15:24:31 <Ilari> Looks like APNIC is nicely down today. Waiting for the graph to update... :-)
15:26:12 <Ilari> Anyway: 128k+64k to Japan, 4M(!!!) to China, 8k+4k to South Korea.
15:28:17 <Ilari> Preliminary calculation gives down 0.27.
15:30:42 <Ilari> Heh. 25% of the address space gone in a single day.
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15:32:32 <ais523> elliott: I just converted a video to a sequence of PNG files representing individual frames, tar/gzipped it (deduplicating repeated frames), uuencoded, and posted it on sprunge
15:32:35 <ais523> is there something wrong with me?
15:33:12 <Ilari> The preliminary figures would mean down 0.83(!) in a single week.
15:33:25 <ais523> let's /hope/ it's April Fool's
15:33:59 <Ilari> Well, this extended delegated file is dated 2nd April...
15:34:11 <ais523> I suppose it is April 2 somewhere
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15:39:00 <Vorpal> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5984 is quite awesome (rfc from today)
15:46:04 <Ilari> Lol, APNIC page has pie graph updated (0.78 left indeed) but bar graph hasn't.
15:52:10 <Ilari> Now the bar graph also updated. Indeed, down 0.27.
15:54:59 <Ilari> Logaritmic space available: /8.353
15:55:57 <Ilari> http://www.apnic.net/community/ipv4-exhaustion/graphical-information ... That shows 1.78, but that doesn't take the final 1.00 into account.
15:56:35 <Vorpal> Ilari, so what is the prediction date now?
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15:58:49 <Ilari> I predict Tuesday 12th April.
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16:01:45 <Ilari> Heh, this model would estimate about 768 addresses left on Monday 11th. Of course, this process is discrete to the max.
16:05:50 <Phantom_Hoover> [[There's also a couple of other reasons a perfect AI doesn't exist, not least the NP-completeness of the problem.]]
16:05:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not well-versed in complexity theory, but that sounds stupidly wrong.
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16:06:34 <pumpkin> can we verify that "perfect AI" is correct in polynomial time?
16:07:31 <ais523> NP-completeness might imply that a perfect AI would take impractically long to run
16:08:02 <Gregor> I imply that "exist" here doesn't refer to theoretical existence, but actual existence.
16:08:16 <ais523> really? the whole point of the NP-completeness proof in Minesweeper is that it's NP-complete for finding if a solution exists
16:08:30 <ais523> which implies that you can't find a solution, in general, in polynomial time, as that would imply that a solution did exist
16:08:57 <Gregor> Right, but you still /can/, it'll just take forever, making it not worth the effort.
16:09:20 <ais523> Gregor: oh, I read the line as meaning that nobody had written a perfect AI
16:11:32 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, noöne *has*, but that's nothing to do with NP-completeness, and more to do with Minesweeper being random.
16:11:51 <ais523> I disagree with the nothing there
16:12:08 <ais523> it's unlikely that a NetHack program will become a restricted-tape Turing machine by chance
16:12:20 <ais523> but it's possible, and if it fails on that, it isn't perfect
16:13:12 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: no, but exponential means unlikely to run in a reasonable time
16:13:15 <ais523> so there'd be no way to test it
16:14:05 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: even if it allows the /existence/, if it makes it impractical, it explains why it hasn't been written
16:14:28 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, the article said it was *impossible* because of that.
16:15:11 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it says "doesn't exist", that's different from "cannot exist"
16:15:30 <ais523> X is impractical explaining that X doesn't exist is an entirely valid argument
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17:10:56 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.johnmwillis.com/other/top-10-worst-captchas/
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17:23:07 <Sgeo> Why is the calculus question using partial derivatives? Does that make any difference in the answer/
17:24:28 <Sgeo> Um... did I just reveal that I understand math a little better than some commentor?
17:25:03 <Sgeo> Well, I guess what e's saying makes sense if you haven't seen the notation before
17:25:11 <ais523> Sgeo: with one variable, it doesn't matter whether you use partial or normal derivatives
17:25:22 <ais523> and in some fields, like engineering, they typically use partials for whatever reason in that case
17:26:01 <ais523> hmm, has anyone here tried to run GNU Hurd yet?
17:26:09 <ais523> I'm not sure if I believe the release announcement
17:27:46 <Sgeo> ais523, with 2 variables, does .. it just become incorrect to use normal derivative notation?
17:27:58 <ais523> IIRC it means something else
17:28:01 <ais523> but I can't remember the details
17:29:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, WP has the answers as usual, although I've forgotten them since I looked them up.
17:29:41 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, the multivariable calculus I'm doing with the OCW thing will be more than Partial Derivatives, right?
17:29:51 <quintopia> i certainly never took higher level diffeq and i'm fine!
17:30:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I've never bothered to look into multivariable calculus.
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17:43:22 <zzo38> It is March 32 today, isn't it?
17:43:42 <ais523> or sep 6422, if you prefer to count that way
17:46:16 <zzo38> They say it is April 1 today, but actually it is March 32. April 1 has been cancelled.
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17:50:26 <quintopia> fortunately, we have the thinkgeek3d sweepstakes (completely real!) to make up for it
17:51:00 <zzo38> MOTD now has ASCII art. It also has the message "VmlldyBwYWdlIHNvdXJjZSwgeW91bmcgZ3Jhc3Nob3BwZXIu"
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17:54:15 <zzo38> I don't know what to do with it, once it is decoded
17:55:14 <ais523> zzo38: join #defocus and say !join, and there's a CAPTCHAbot that gives some sort of quiz
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17:55:58 <Sgeo> ais523, I thought it was just a mafia game
18:00:40 <zzo38> JIIbH01UGxIvZ1cAGGOjp1xjLmExI0y6H1uJJx0lBGWnFTf1IyMjI2SVIzuJZQIiJGVkHzEJo3yvERR9
18:08:58 <fizzie> The MOTD message is referring to the blog page's source code.
18:09:20 <fizzie> The one at http://blog.freenode.net/2011/04/important-service-announcement-regarding-defocus/
18:09:47 <fizzie> And I pasted the decoded versions of two of the three things that are in that page's source.
18:10:53 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/xcxp and http://p.zem.fi/d98k -- feel free to go on and solve the Cat Enigma.
18:11:26 <fizzie> I would sort-of guess that they'd have gotten the ten solutions already. (Though come to think of it I haven't seen any more global notices.)
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18:16:29 <Ilari> APNIC burned through 2.678 during last 30 days???
18:24:12 <Ilari> To paraphrase popular phrase: Allocate baby allocate. :-)
18:30:35 <zzo38> I want to add feature to TeXnicard so that it can work without external programs (but keeping the way using external program, too), by adding some commands for image manipulation and for typesetting using some algorithms of TeX. However I do not want to include any external libraries other than the one I can include with source-codes and compiling together with TeXnicard, and without floating point.
18:31:24 <zzo38> Is there a way to tell git that a file has been renamed?
18:34:15 <elliott> hmm, apparently I need a newer yasm
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18:41:06 <elliott> ais523: What does it mean if a GPU computation program has an option to "use vectors"?
18:43:37 <ais523> elliott: my guess is it means vectorised operations, like the SIMD instructions in recent x86-compatible processors
18:43:46 <ais523> but that would be CPU not GPU
18:44:02 <elliott> I think OpenCL can do both, but this is explicitly a GPU program
18:44:03 <ais523> in that case it's a weird name for something else I've never heard of
18:44:25 <elliott> apparently it's ideal on some AMD cards at least
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18:45:01 <ais523> I suppose it could be a reference to memory coalescing
18:45:25 <ais523> (the way that you can request a block of memory and it's as fast as requesting a single byte, because it's typelineable
18:45:30 <elliott> nonce = base + get_global_id(0) + (uint2)(0, 0x80000000U);
18:45:30 <elliott> nonce = base + get_global_id(0);
18:45:45 <ais523> it's forcing the two units next to each other in memory
18:45:53 <elliott> so is that almost universally a good thing, or does it depend on the card?
18:45:56 <ais523> so that they can be coalesced
18:46:26 <ais523> if you're going to be using two ints anyway, together, it makes sense to vectorise them
18:46:30 <ais523> if they're used separately a lot, it doesn't
18:46:55 <ais523> and all cards react much the same way on that
18:47:16 <elliott> the code is too insane for me to naalyze like that
18:47:21 <elliott> B = B + (rotr(G, 6) ^ rotr(G, 11) ^ rotr(G, 25)) + (A ^ (G & (H ^ A))) + K[54] + W6; F = F + B; B = B + (rotr(C, 2) ^ rotr(C, 13) ^ rotr(C, 22)) + ((C & D) | (E & (C | D)));
18:47:21 <elliott> W7 = W7 + (rotr(W8, 7) ^ rotr(W8, 18) ^ (W8 >> 3U)) + W0 + (rotr(W5, 17) ^ rotr(W5, 19) ^ (W5 >> 10U));
18:47:22 <elliott> A = A + (rotr(F, 6) ^ rotr(F, 11) ^ rotr(F, 25)) + (H ^ (F & (G ^ H))) + K[55] + W7; E = E + A; A = A + (rotr(B, 2) ^ rotr(B, 13) ^ rotr(B, 22)) + ((B & C) | (D & (B | C)));
18:47:22 <elliott> W8 = W8 + (rotr(W9, 7) ^ rotr(W9, 18) ^ (W9 >> 3U)) + W1 + (rotr(W6, 17) ^ rotr(W6, 19) ^ (W6 >> 10U));
18:47:24 <elliott> H = H + (rotr(E, 6) ^ rotr(E, 11) ^ rotr(E, 25)) + (G ^ (E & (F ^ G))) + K[56] + W8; D = D + H; H = H + (rotr(A, 2) ^ rotr(A, 13) ^ rotr(A, 22)) + ((A & B) | (C & (A | B)));
18:47:58 <elliott> wow @ the resulting assembly file
18:50:59 <elliott> ais523: You sound terrified :-P
18:51:12 <ais523> I didn't realise I sounded anything
18:51:18 <ais523> also, that sort of thing looks almost normal
18:51:22 <ais523> I take it those are thread-local variables?
18:51:37 <elliott> function local, the function is __kernel
18:51:44 <elliott> __kernel void search( const uint state0, const uint state1, const uint state2, const uint state3,
18:51:44 <elliott> const uint state4, const uint state5, const uint state6, const uint state7,
18:51:44 <elliott> const uint B1, const uint C1, const uint D1,
18:51:44 <elliott> const uint F1, const uint G1, const uint H1,
18:51:44 <elliott> const uint targetG, const uint targetH,
18:51:47 <elliott> const uint fW0, const uint fW1, const uint fW2, const uint fW3, const uint fW15, const uint fW01r, const uint fcty_e, const uint fcty_e2,
18:52:01 <ais523> they'd have some sort of indicator if they weren't
18:52:26 <elliott> there's about a hundred lines like the above in a row, though :)
18:52:29 <elliott> i feel like macros could help.
18:53:18 <elliott> ais523: again, i feel like macros could help :-P
18:53:29 <ais523> I think CUDA actually has C++-style templates, despite being mostly based on C, precisely to shorten that sort of thing
18:53:41 <elliott> all this advanced technology and it's being defeated by an http timeout...
18:56:31 <elliott> def if_else(condition, trueVal, falseVal):
18:56:42 <elliott> I feel good about this code already.
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19:03:56 <elliott> ais523: wow, GPUs are pretty good
19:04:09 <elliott> approximately 10x as good as CPUs, even :-P
19:04:11 <ais523> they're much better than CPUs, just hard to write for
19:04:25 <elliott> yeah. and they slow down your desktop when you use them! sheesh
19:04:30 <ais523> for things that are maximally optimal for GPUs compared to CPUs, it's more like 100x
19:04:45 <elliott> this is what essentially amounts to hash-cracking on the small, I think
19:05:01 <elliott> actually it's not quite 10x as good as my cpu, more like 5x, because i have two cores
19:05:27 <elliott> grr, maybe compiz will get less lag than metacity
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19:09:14 <elliott> Compiz doesn't like being turned on when the GPU is being thrashed
19:09:31 <ais523> it's very easy to crash a GPU by mistake
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19:09:42 <ais523> as they don't have all the OSy stuff that CPUs have nowadays
19:09:51 <elliott> that will ruin their throughput? :-D
19:09:53 <ais523> and a crashed GPU mostly forces you to reboot the computer if you want the screen to work
19:10:02 <elliott> also, it worked, just, i could only see my mouse
19:10:03 <ais523> elliott: nah, I just don't think people have got round to doing it yet
19:10:06 <elliott> (it changed cursor when moving over texty parts)
19:10:09 <elliott> but just that and the background, no windows
19:10:12 <ais523> ah, then it was just being overloaded
19:10:52 <elliott> grr, my gpu is a bit of a weakling
19:11:07 <elliott> despite being basically the best *integrated* laptop gpu out there :)
19:11:16 <elliott> i have a choice of this performing well, or a smooth desktop
19:12:43 <elliott> hmm, seems to be getting marginally better
19:12:53 <elliott> except that one of my query windows just went blank
19:13:04 <elliott> ais523: do gpus have any sort of "hey, i have no memory left" protection? :D
19:13:10 <ais523> elliott: no, they just crash
19:13:20 <elliott> oh, wait, it didn't actually clear
19:13:24 <ais523> if you're lucky, the supervisor process on the CPU will notice and be able to put things back in order
19:13:28 <elliott> I must have hit Ctrl+L by mistake
19:14:24 <ais523> at least, the supervisor process normally notices if it's running at the time, although it may not be able to put things back to normal depending on how badly crashed the GPU is
19:17:00 * elliott tries 1/90 single kernel execution seconds
19:17:15 <elliott> okay my desktop is basically usable now
19:17:19 <elliott> yet more reason to use ratpoison!
19:17:36 <Gregor> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
19:18:19 <elliott> it's worth it, put all your money into it
19:18:25 <elliott> buy it for ten thousand dollars
19:18:30 <Gregor> That's still below my max, but not by much.
19:18:31 <elliott> give up hookers for a year if you must
19:18:36 <Gregor> I have all but to concede defeat :(
19:18:59 <elliott> "that's still below my max" ;; surely at this point you can admit that it's an insane amount of money to be spending
19:19:15 <elliott> that's /80 years/ of normal average domain
19:19:18 <Gregor> It's mostly not my money, people who aren't douchebags have been donating :P
19:19:51 <elliott> wtf, it's estimating that switching to the gpu was a lose
19:20:07 <elliott> despite it being 5x as fast
19:20:51 <elliott> I should turn on that vectors thing... and change the worksize :)
19:21:37 <elliott> ais523: Can I have a GPU farm?
19:21:47 <elliott> hmm, "that vectors thing" is a massive pessimisation
19:21:53 <ais523> admittedly, I do have access to a GPU farm, but I'd be in trouble if I used it for /that/
19:22:02 <ais523> elliott: it looks like it's changing the algo
19:22:11 <ais523> to one that's slower but sped up more by coalescing
19:22:32 <Gregor> If it was $825 of my own money, then yes, that would be a lot.
19:22:39 <Gregor> But I have friends that are actually friends.
19:22:42 <Gregor> Unlike you bastards :P
19:23:04 <elliott> ais523: /that/?! YOU MEAN HELPING YOUR FRIEND? ;______________________________________________________________________________________________________;
19:23:33 <ais523> Gregor: so it's $825 of your friends' money?
19:23:55 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to wawawareya.
19:24:13 <Gregor> ais523: WTF is wrong with you, seriously. You have so little money sense it's almost offensive.
19:24:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor has 15 friends who would give him $20 for a novelty email address?
19:24:35 <elliott> money sense, n. spending $825 of your friends' money on a novelty domain name
19:24:56 <Gregor> elliott: They gave small donations and I'm giving them a vanity email address in return, it's friendly and they're trying to help me out.
19:26:53 <Gregor> ALSO you don't read, it's not $825 of my friend's money, I said that's /mostly/ my friend's money. That only means it's at least $413 of theirs.
19:27:44 <Gregor> (It happens to be more, but you people are so frustratingly unhelpful and assholish that I'm not going to give a value)
19:28:19 <ais523> Gregor: is it us who's being assholish, for trying to give you good advice rather than waste money chasing domain names?
19:28:37 <elliott> Things #esoteric has said to Gregor:
19:28:44 <elliott> (2) It's a waste of money.
19:28:55 <elliott> (3) No, fiscal responsibility alone does not give you sufficient money to throw away like that.
19:29:52 <Gregor> Yes, that is unfriendly behavior towards someone who DOES have the money, and DOES NOT have the money through magic or pulling it out of his god damn ass, to want to buy something to make him happy.
19:30:39 <Gregor> And "never spend substantial amounts of money on anything that does not have intrinsic value" is a very poor piece of advice if you'd like to actually enjoy life at all.
19:31:06 <ais523> oh, I tend not to spend substantial amounts of money even on things that do have intrinsic value
19:31:17 <elliott> You've also been bugging us for donations, not just saying you're buying it
19:32:45 * Gregor spends a moment breathing :P
19:33:16 <Sgeo> It's up to $825 now?
19:33:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, and Gregor is now in a bitter argument with elliott and ais523.
19:34:09 <Sgeo> I think donating all the money I made in SL may not be a good idea
19:34:55 * Gregor chooses to believe Sealand.
19:34:56 <Sgeo> ais523, not much, especially considering the amount of time involved)
19:35:07 <elliott> 01/04/2011 20:34:48, fc342b63, accepted
19:35:18 <Sgeo> elliott, BitCoins?
19:35:29 <elliott> omg and another... actually I think it just found work this second :P
19:35:54 <elliott> Makes me want to go down to the coal mines.
19:35:59 <elliott> Actually I could just play Minecraft.
19:36:06 <elliott> Actually gold mines but I don't think we have gold mines in England.
19:36:32 <ais523> elliott: how much is that one coin worth?
19:36:35 <Sgeo> Any transaction fees? (Yeah, I know that currently transaction fees are minimal compared to .. what's it called? The 50)
19:36:37 <elliott> ais523: I don't have a coin yet X-D
19:36:44 <elliott> ais523: This is pooled mining.
19:36:50 <elliott> ais523: (In non-pooled mining, you get 50 coins at a time. Very slowly.)
19:37:06 <ais523> ah, you're constructing a batch of coins together and splitting them?
19:37:17 <Sgeo> elliott, oh, thought you were doing it yourself
19:37:18 <elliott> ais523: No, a bunch of people contribute to the mining of one block
19:37:29 <elliott> the rewards are distributed according to how much work they did, etc.
19:37:46 <elliott> because the combined result is essentially a supercomputer, it gets far more blocks than any one person (who would be unlikely to ever get one with only one computer)
19:37:56 <Sgeo> How often does that cluster find coins?
19:38:18 <elliott> ais523: re: worth; as far as exchange goes, 1 USD = 1.26 BTC; 1 EUR = 1.64 BTC; 1 BTC = L$220 (going to L$; too lazy to work out the reverse)
19:38:35 <elliott> (YES, SECOND LIFE'S CURRENCY IS TOTALLY ON THE SAME LEVEL AS DOLLARS X-D)
19:38:48 <elliott> Also 1 gram of gold is 48.54 BTC X-D
19:39:02 <ais523> do you have to mine a block at a time the way it works? or can you find just the one coin then stop?
19:39:33 <elliott> ais523: you have to mine a block at a time, but I believe it's an incremental process, and possibly even distributed
19:39:37 <elliott> but all the spoils go to one winner
19:39:49 <elliott> (the spoils decrease and the difficulty increases as time goes on, before all bitcoins have been distributed into the market)
19:40:36 <elliott> ais523: but with pool mining, the problems your node has to solve are much smaller
19:40:49 <elliott> it still seems to be a waste of time to use a CPU, though
19:40:53 <ais523> hm, so it isn't just hashcash-style
19:41:00 <elliott> ais523: oh, I don't know the actual protocol yet
19:41:07 <elliott> ais523: but it's something like finding a hash with no zeroes, that's involved
19:41:17 <elliott> (in some base, presumably)
19:41:39 <elliott> ais523: btw, the analogue to the sg finding-a-tip problem is that you have to go from the first block ever created to the last
19:41:44 <elliott> and I think there's like one block per transaction
19:41:54 <quintopia> what game is this for? i can't read up
19:42:00 <elliott> quintopia: it's not a game
19:42:08 <elliott> they have no clever solution to it though (I'm not even sure a clever solution is desirable), they just walk from the first block to the latest
19:42:34 <elliott> quintopia: cryptographic, decentralised currency
19:42:54 <elliott> in actual use -- you can donate to the EFF with it, buy gold with it, convert it to USD/EUR, etc.
19:43:29 <quintopia> oic, so why does it involve mining?
19:43:38 <Sgeo> quintopia, that's how it's produced
19:43:42 <elliott> quintopia: mining = solving a bunch of cryptographic problems :P
19:43:45 <Sgeo> There's no central bank
19:43:47 <elliott> leading you to a valid bitcoin
19:43:52 <elliott> 19:37:56: <Sgeo> How often does that cluster find coins?
19:44:00 <elliott> http://mining.bitcoin.cz/stats/
19:44:18 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia is unable to comprehend any token of exchange that doesn't involve siderophilic elements.
19:44:32 <elliott> Sgeo: the system takes 2% to give to the owner for upkeep
19:45:06 <elliott> there are other pools, but this one seems decent
19:45:07 <quintopia> apparently they make you solve those problems to slow the rate at which the currency enters circulation
19:45:08 <Sgeo> The reason people get paid to mine is because they're supporting the network. Each mined block contains previous transactions
19:45:19 <elliott> apparently there are others that give a quicker payout in the short-run, but meh
19:45:32 <elliott> quintopia: it's not that they make you, it's that it's literally built in to the protocol
19:45:42 <elliott> quintopia: and there has to be _some_ problem involved, or the first person could just award themselves every bitcoin :-D
19:46:43 <quintopia> so basically you're making real money by doing nothing, the same way you would by investing real money in a hedge fund or commodities
19:46:58 <Sgeo> quintopia, not doing nothing. Providing resources to the network
19:47:04 <elliott> quintopia: It's not doing nothing, it's doing nothing of intrinsic value
19:47:09 <Sgeo> Although the actual computation is wasted
19:47:10 <elliott> quintopia: but does that really matter? you can get it in other ways far quicker
19:47:22 <elliott> by trading existing currency, offering services (apparently some people will actually pay you in bitcoins already), ...
19:47:37 <elliott> and it's only relevant for the first few years, after which there won't be any to distribute anyway
19:47:52 <Sgeo> elliott, there will still be transaction fees
19:47:55 <quintopia> Sgeo: providing resources to the network requires no effort, therefore it is doing nothing
19:48:00 <elliott> quintopia: anyway, by the same token most office jobs are doing ntohing :-P
19:48:14 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> quintopia: It's not doing nothing, it's doing nothing of intrinsic value
19:48:26 <ais523> elliott: I think the way it's working is that everyone checks the block, looking for perfect or imperfect bitcoins (ones with a few or several bits wrong)
19:48:31 <quintopia> no, i do nothing, and i don't get paid for it
19:48:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's difficult :P But I don't think many people are interested in various cryptographic results.
19:48:48 <ais523> when someone finds a perfect one, it's split between everyone in the ratio of the imperfect ones they found, which are valueless
19:49:03 <elliott> ais523: ah; that's not how the protocol itself works, though
19:49:09 <elliott> I know for a fact that only one person wins a block.
19:50:57 <ais523> also, it's utterly hilarious that the bitcoin homepage has a flattr link
19:51:10 <Sgeo> elliott, which block did your group find?
19:51:18 <elliott> ais523: they're replacing that, I think, with a development-oriented page
19:51:21 <elliott> ais523: http://www.weusecoins.com/ is the new "marketing" site
19:51:27 <elliott> with obligatory cute videos
19:51:48 <ais523> it's worrying that more or less the currency's entire value depends on how good it is at marketing
19:52:00 <elliott> ais523: only in the short-term
19:52:06 <elliott> ais523: anyway, that's true with _all_ currencies!
19:52:20 <ais523> all the ones that don't have an actual backing
19:52:28 <elliott> ais523: that makes no sense!
19:52:29 <ais523> but very few (no?) currencies are backed by something that's really valuable
19:52:32 <elliott> ais523: say pounds were backed by gold
19:52:37 <Sgeo> Oh, dur, it's on the pool's site
19:52:37 <elliott> what use is gold? not much
19:52:43 <ais523> people value it higher than its uses (which do exist)
19:52:46 <elliott> ais523: nothing has intrinsic value
19:52:49 <Sgeo> http://blockexplorer.com/block/000000000000261ec3e461516103db3e359519e3cc6149ff5d3af63855465c66
19:52:50 <elliott> ais523: things only have value because we find them useful
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19:52:54 <elliott> guess what? fiat currencies have value
19:53:02 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, if nothing has intrinsic value then what is the point of the concept?
19:53:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: there is no point of the concept :)
19:53:16 <elliott> (I was using it with a meaning that I don't even know earlier)
19:53:24 <elliott> the only useful concept is human value
19:53:28 <elliott> and fiat currencies definitely have that
19:53:31 <ais523> well, you'd consider things like food to be intrinsically valuable
19:53:41 <ais523> on the basis that people require it to live
19:53:42 <elliott> they're useful because we find eating them to be a rather good thing
19:53:47 <elliott> because we find staying alive to be a good thing
19:53:50 <elliott> still nothing objective there
19:54:10 <elliott> currency is just abstraction of work; if you can work for a currency, and use the currency to buy the product of work, then that currency is valuable
19:54:31 <ais523> elliott: well, would you consider the barter system to make sense?
19:54:38 <elliott> ais523: anyway, bitcoin is better than a "normal" fiat currency system
19:54:42 <elliott> because nobody can control its value
19:55:00 <elliott> ais523: the barter system is better than no kind of currency system at all, but definitely suboptimal
19:55:06 <ais523> actually, I suspect its value would be much more liable to being manipulated than otherwise
19:55:14 <elliott> and what, bitcoins? howso?
19:55:20 <ais523> you could drive the value very high the same way you can drive the value of shares high, by buying a lot of bitcoins quickly
19:55:27 <ais523> for more than everyone else thinks they're worth
19:55:34 <ais523> if people then trust those trades, you could sell them on at a profit
19:55:39 <ais523> and cause a collapse later
19:55:44 <ais523> very risky, but it's been successfully done with other things
19:56:01 <Sgeo> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees
19:56:07 <elliott> Sgeo: I don't know that they have yet
19:56:27 <elliott> I think this one is still in progress
19:56:33 <ais523> also, the statement that they'll keep getting more valuable with time is very worrying; the fact that it's going up rather than down as more are created means that public perception of the value is changing rapidly
19:57:05 <elliott> ais523: they get valuable after the distribution stops
19:57:31 <Sgeo> Isn't that supposed to be many many years from now?
19:58:32 <elliott> ais523: and they get harder to get as distribution goes on
19:58:37 <elliott> because the rewards are less and the problems more difficult
19:59:10 <elliott> heh, singularity institute also accept bitcoin donations :)
19:59:47 <elliott> also, transaction fees are optional
20:00:26 <Sgeo> Not that that does much good unless someone runs a miner that doesn't require fees
20:00:57 <elliott> Sgeo: um, as in, you can send bitcoins without transactions
20:01:03 <elliott> ("Because nodes have no obligation to include transactions in the blocks they generate, Bitcoin senders may voluntarily pay a transaction fee. Doing so will speed up the transaction and provide incentive for users to run nodes, especially as the difficulty of generating bitcoins increases or the reward per block amount decreases over time. Nodes collect the transaction fees associated with all transactions included in their candidate block.")
20:02:08 <Sgeo> But nodes are free to reject transactions without a fee if they wish
20:02:17 <Sgeo> it's a free market like thingy
20:05:08 <ais523> I think the way bitcoin works is that everyone has a history of everything that's happened, and it's cryptographically hard to update
20:05:23 <ais523> and if you manage to update it, you get some free bitcoins as a reward for doing the work in question
20:05:44 <elliott> "Well, you fooled *us*! Have some bitcoins!"
20:05:54 <ais523> hmm, it's basically an attempt to construct a monad in cryptographic security
20:06:04 <elliott> YOU THINK EVERYTHING'S A MONAD
20:06:10 <ais523> no, just things that are
20:06:22 <ais523> transaction histories /aren't/, bitcoin's an attempt to make them act like one
20:06:37 <elliott> it's more turning transactions into a linked list
20:06:45 <ais523> the point is to prevent the list forking
20:06:58 <ais523> basically, people put computational power into forcing their own version of events
20:07:00 <elliott> yes, it's a linked list addressed by cryptographic hashes
20:07:18 <elliott> ais523: you could only fork if you regenerated every event after too, I think
20:07:18 <ais523> but not a doubly linked list, as that wouldn't make sense
20:07:32 <elliott> ais523: blocks have the hash of the last block in them
20:07:33 <ais523> elliott: no, you can just fork at any point by generating a block
20:07:53 <ais523> /but/, if your block chain is easier to generate than the one that most people think is the chain, nobody will pay attention to it
20:08:03 <ais523> whichever chain is the most difficult to generate is the official version of events
20:08:37 <ais523> and everyone extends that one as it's the only one other people accept, which means it keeps getting longer and longer, and harder and harder to catch
20:08:54 <elliott> ais523: Every block contains a hash of the previous block. This has the effect of creating a chain of blocks from the genesis block to the current block. Each block is guaranteed to come after the previous block chronologically because the previous block's hash would otherwise not be known. Each block is also nearly impossible to modify once it has been in the chain for a while because every block after it would also have to be regenerated. These
20:08:54 <elliott> properties are what make double-spending of bitcoins very difficult. The block chain is the main innovation of Bitcoin.
20:08:56 <ais523> "Bitcoin relies on the fact that no single entity can control most of the CPU power on the network for any significant length of time, since, if they could, they would be able to extend any branch of the tree they chose, and faster than any other branch can be extended, making it the longest branch, and then permanently controlling which transactions appear in it."
20:09:14 <ais523> elliott: well, you can pick any block you like as the "previous block" when generating them
20:11:07 <elliott> ais523: Anyway, it seems cryptographically sound.
20:11:21 <ais523> yes, I think it makes sense cryptographically
20:11:29 <ais523> assuming no hash collisions, which we can hope is the case
20:11:46 <elliott> it's SHA-256, so that's a pretty good assumption
20:13:21 <quintopia> does this bitcoin discussion have to do with the freenode prize?
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20:14:24 <elliott> I currently have 0.05 BTC due to free money being given out :-P
20:15:00 <quintopia> where can i find the latest BTC exchange rates?
20:15:24 <elliott> there is also http://bitcoincharts.com/
20:15:29 <elliott> which has fancy market stats
20:15:33 <elliott> so you can pretend to be a REAL trader
20:16:13 <elliott> uh oh, buying lots of ridiculously overpowerful hardware and then sitting at a computer screen into the night just became profitable
20:16:32 <elliott> I suspect the world population growth rate to plummet
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20:17:49 <elliott> quintopia: Is it what? Profitable?
20:18:06 <elliott> Yes; people who are doing it are pretty serious :-P
20:18:22 <ais523> elliott: why would you have to attend it?
20:18:23 <quintopia> i expect that you wouldn't be able to mine enough BTC in the short time that new blocks have so much value to recoup the cost of the hardware and electricity
20:18:58 <ais523> well, after a while, new blocks won't generate coins
20:19:04 <elliott> ais523: traders spend all day looking at screens with white on black and red and blue :-P
20:19:07 <ais523> instead, people will be paid to generate them by people doing transactions
20:19:08 <elliott> And you can do that with bitcoins!
20:19:28 <ais523> i.e. if you do a transaction, you need to bribe the people making blocks to include it
20:19:29 <elliott> quintopia: if you buy a handful of high-end GPUs
20:19:39 <ais523> otherwise the person at the other end has no way to know if it's confirmed or not
20:19:47 <ais523> and thus, whether you're double-spending or not
20:20:19 <elliott> ok, now person #2 has assumed I'm talking about a game when I mentioned bitcoins
20:20:26 <elliott> THE NAME PERHAPS REQUIRES IMPROVEMENT
20:20:31 <ais523> well, most purely digital currenices are game-related
20:20:34 <elliott> Like TotallySeriousBitCurrencyYo.
20:20:37 <elliott> ais523: I didn't mention that :P
20:20:39 <elliott> quintopia: No, that's awesome.
20:20:53 <quintopia> but we have a wealth of mining /games/
20:21:10 <elliott> quintopia: In fact I want my screensaver to be a picture of a cute little android mining at a big ol' block of bitcoins.
20:21:18 <elliott> With little coins falling out of it.
20:21:27 <ais523> it'd be much better if you could get a bunch of clients cooperating to mine games, rather than coins
20:21:34 <ais523> it'd probably be cheaper than making games by hand
20:21:49 <ais523> see, it'd produce something actually useful then, people like playing games
20:22:16 <elliott> ais523: wouldn't that involve a very expensive algorithm that generates a new game?
20:22:23 <quintopia> it would take a very long time to mine a single game though
20:22:31 <quintopia> imagine the games being written in SHAfuck
20:22:37 <ais523> elliott: of course, you think generating a good game is easy?
20:22:54 <ais523> you can determine how good the game is by how many person-hours are spent playing it
20:23:02 <elliott> ais523: somehow I'm relieved that nobody from #esoteric invented bitcoins now
20:23:09 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, wouldn't it be better to have a rating system?
20:23:10 <ais523> then do the rest of the setup the same way as bitcoin
20:23:17 <elliott> <ais523> you can determine how good the game is by how many person-hours are spent playing it
20:23:20 <elliott> but then QWOP would rank as a good game!
20:23:21 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: you'd want somethign that couldn't be easily gamed
20:23:30 <elliott> ais523: YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW
20:23:34 <elliott> and it requires flash so you can't know
20:23:44 <Phantom_Hoover> One of those highly-addictive but not particularly enjoyable games.
20:23:44 <elliott> also, Dot Action 2 would count as a good game, though that's only debatable, not objectively wrong
20:23:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: IT'S NOT ENJOYABLE AT ALL
20:23:57 <ais523> so why do people play it?
20:24:05 <quintopia> so, since i can't seem to find it in these lay intros, exactly what is the problem being solved in the creation of a new block, and how is its difficulty ramped up?
20:24:11 <elliott> ais523: IT CONSUMES YOUR SOUL
20:24:17 <elliott> quintopia: look at the non-lay intros :P
20:24:24 <ais523> quintopia: the problem's to find a hash of the previous transaction history that, treated as an integer, is really low
20:24:29 <quintopia> elliott: you mean the original paper?
20:24:29 <elliott> quintopia: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Main_Page
20:25:39 <quintopia> ais523: and how is the difficulty parameterized?
20:25:52 <elliott> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths wow, this is big
20:26:14 <ais523> quintopia: I'm not sure about the translation to a number, but it's basically finding a hash that's, say, only 0.0001% of the maximum value it could have, rather than more like 50% like you'd expect
20:26:23 <elliott> Bitcoins are worthless because they aren't backed by anything
20:26:23 <elliott> Gold isn't backed by anything either. See myth https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#Bitcoin_is_backed_by_CPU_cycles
20:26:33 <elliott> lol, i should have just told ais523 to read this :P
20:26:53 <ais523> I agree that bitcoin isn't backed by anything
20:27:15 <ais523> it could only be backed by CPU cycles if they were intrinsically capable of being exchanged for CPU cycles, and they aren't
20:27:36 <ais523> I suppose the reason I think bitcoin's a bubble is because I think gold's a bubble too
20:27:46 <ais523> and, well, most or all Real Life currency
20:27:57 <ais523> but it's hard to find a way to live without currency altogether, so I may as well use what most people use
20:28:03 <elliott> ais523: all currency is a bubble by your definition
20:28:11 <ais523> can I not believe that?
20:28:18 <elliott> maybe that's true, but it's more making the concept of "bubble" useless, rather than saying something deep about currency
20:28:45 <quintopia> ais523: and by "finding a hash" that means "choosing a way of hashing" such that the choices are numerous and the particular choice of hashes is specifiable as a small number?
20:28:47 <elliott> if something is useful indefinitely, I find calling it a bubble silly; and there's no reason bitcoin wouldn't be usable indefinitely, if people keep using it, which there seems to be no reason for them to stop doing
20:29:22 <ais523> there's doesn't seem to be much reason for them to continue doing either
20:29:51 <ais523> quintopia: you can append an arbitrary nonce to the data then hash it via a specific hash algo, the difficulty's in finding a nonce for which doing that works
20:29:58 <elliott> ais523: as much reason as any currency
20:30:14 <quintopia> the reason is because it would take a lot of people deciding not to in order to make it no longer worthwhile for anyone to
20:30:25 <elliott> i.e., it's more useful than having to milk a goat by hand to give milk to the person who you want to buy a coat off
20:30:29 <ais523> quintopia: except it can happen gradually
20:30:29 <quintopia> so continuing to do so is a dynamic equilibrium of the system
20:30:42 <ais523> if a few people decide they don't want to continue to use bitcoin any more, it makes its value go down
20:30:57 <ais523> that'll make more people decide they don't want to use it, and drive its value down further
20:30:58 <elliott> ais523: not as long as the exchanges are still used
20:31:01 <ais523> it's an unstable equilibrium
20:31:06 <quintopia> ais523: but if everyone is using it, what reason do those people have to choose not to use it?
20:31:08 <ais523> real currency has the same issue
20:31:08 <elliott> ais523: but you have to show why that would happen
20:31:16 <elliott> ALL CURRENCY INHERENTLY HAS THAT ISSUE
20:31:18 <ais523> the only reason it's tolerated is that people have to use /something/
20:31:23 <elliott> apart from currencies whose value is somehow determined by one person
20:31:29 <elliott> which can only be done by that one person selling just about every good
20:31:33 <quintopia> basically, how does a rational player determine that it is rational to stop using bitcoin?
20:31:36 <elliott> or at least forcing people to sell it at a certain price
20:31:41 <elliott> and, um, people don't like that
20:31:49 <ais523> your argument isn't working, because you're trying to convince me that bitcoin is no worse than any real currency, and I'm saying I don't care because real currencies are bad enough
20:31:51 <elliott> ais523: what I object to is your use of the word "bitcoin"
20:32:29 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, I'm going to have to bring out the "if you're so clever then what would you use instead" at this juncture.
20:32:36 <quintopia> ais523: how does a rational player determine that it is rational to stop using a particular widespread currency?
20:32:47 <elliott> quintopia: people aren't rational
20:32:51 <elliott> come on, you made that far too easy
20:32:52 <elliott> ais523: FWIW, I don't like currency in the general case anyway
20:33:03 <elliott> ais523: my preferred solution is to eliminate scarcity
20:33:06 <elliott> then it's just superfluous
20:33:09 <quintopia> elliott: i'm asking a game theory question here, your objection is overruled
20:33:16 <ais523> quintopia: it's worth not using a currency, if what it takes you to obtain that currency is an unfairly large amount of however-you-value-things-in-general compared to what you can buy using it
20:33:24 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, hello, this is reality speaking. Humans are not rational. Bye.
20:33:27 <elliott> quintopia: I don't think game theory applies to people deciding to stop using a currency like bitcoin
20:33:27 <ais523> I may as well give you a stock game theory answer in that case
20:33:31 <elliott> there are far too many irrational reasons to do it
20:34:00 <quintopia> elliott: i agree that it does not apply in the real world. could you stop bringing up irrelevancies wrt my game theory question?
20:34:39 <elliott> quintopia: no, I like pinging you, it's fun
20:34:46 <ais523> elliott: the main rational reason to buy a currency that's been freshly created and that doesn't have much momentum yet, is because you think that other people will try to do the same thing as you but later
20:34:55 <ais523> I remember pulling that sort of trick in nomic occasionally
20:35:06 <ais523> actually, PBA vs. RBoA is probably worth analysing by all economists
20:35:07 <elliott> ais523: I'm a bit of a slowpoke, I probably should have jumped in earlier
20:35:13 <elliott> ais523: gah, I was just thinking about the PBA
20:35:16 <elliott> ais523: trying to mentally revise it
20:35:21 <ais523> elliott: if you're a slowpoke, you'll go and dominate the leaderboard
20:35:24 <elliott> then I wondered about having a bank backed by bitcoins, which sounded like fun
20:35:29 <ais523> until you get trapped by consistency
20:35:33 <elliott> OTOH, people would be unlikely to use it
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20:35:40 <elliott> but, at least, more likely than "real" currency
20:35:44 <elliott> despite that not being rational
20:35:51 <quintopia> ais523: are you saying that for a widespread currency, currency acquisition becomes more expensive than the value of the currency? that seems to contradict the definition of "value"?
20:36:01 <elliott> ais523: anyway, the PBA is still inherently better than the RBoA, IMO
20:36:09 <elliott> ais523: it just needs tweaking
20:36:33 <ais523> elliott: you're speaking as if it still exists
20:36:39 <elliott> ais523: i'm speaking about it in the abstract
20:36:42 <ais523> quintopia: indeed, that's why currencies tend not to collapse
20:36:47 <elliott> ais523: and the PBA did very well for a long time, it was killed by (1) my coding negligence, (2) BobTHJ's everything negligence and (3) the resulting bank run of one by Wooble
20:36:50 <ais523> the value is based on a circular argument, but it's a persistent one
20:36:54 <elliott> *(3) the collapse of the game, and the
20:36:55 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> ais523: what I object to is your use of the word "bitcoin"
20:37:07 <ais523> elliott: the collapse of the economy in general helped too, I think
20:37:18 <elliott> ais523: that's what i said, unless you mean the real world economy
20:37:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Phantom_Hoover: because he was objecting to bitcoins in various ways, but they actually applied to every currency
20:37:36 <ais523> elliott: I meant the Agoran economy
20:37:41 <ais523> the game didn't collapse, just the AAA
20:37:47 <elliott> ais523: I think the start of the PBA was really interesting, because it was amazing how out of whack the RBoA rates are
20:38:14 <ais523> and, incidentally, both banks were backed by the AAA, which was backed by the scoring system
20:38:22 <ais523> so the banks worked fine just as long as win by points did
20:38:27 <elliott> ais523: it was also backed by notes
20:38:31 <elliott> only the AAA dwarfed notes
20:38:52 <elliott> ais523: IMO, a bank should have some built-in-to-the-contract way of selling off work
20:38:59 <elliott> ais523: so that e.g. it would still work even if only offices were left
20:39:06 <elliott> because you could get out of office duties by paying someone else to do them
20:39:13 <quintopia> ais523: i think that is naive to say. there are many reasons why currencies collapse, but i don't think it ever happens because people all at once decide that currency is not as valuable as it once was. from what i've seen it happens when actual real world conditions change to modify the perceived value of the coin
20:39:29 <ais523> elliott: see my attempt to create a new economy at Agora
20:39:33 <ais523> which I need to get back to
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20:39:45 <elliott> ais523: I probably oppose it, because now I'm all set on reviving the PBA but better
20:39:48 <elliott> ais523: we have contracts now, right?
20:39:49 <quintopia> for instance, when someone changes the rules about what can be done with currency
20:39:56 <elliott> ais523: well, can we get contracts back?
20:40:01 <ais523> but the PBA needs something to refer to
20:40:06 <ais523> and my new economy works a bit like contracts
20:40:17 <ais523> you could still create banks, but in nomic they need something to back the
20:40:22 <ais523> mostly because otherwise they have nothing to trade
20:40:28 <ais523> so my plan would create the banking
20:40:35 <ais523> and you could go nuts on top of that
20:40:37 <elliott> ais523: like I said, work is the backing
20:40:42 <elliott> as well as other currencies
20:40:48 <elliott> in fact, the other trades would be based on "work = {transfer me X}"
20:41:10 <ais523> elliott: and that work is what I was planning to make into a currency
20:41:14 <ais523> or more precisely, actions
20:41:27 <elliott> ais523: hmm, perhaps then; I think contract law was a good way of doing that, though
20:41:30 <ais523> more or less like the Vote Market, except not so hideously stupid
20:41:36 <elliott> ais523: although contract law would be better if it was based on individual pledges
20:41:40 <elliott> you can emulate contracts with those, I think
20:41:42 <ais523> it's really an attempt to bring back something contract-like
20:41:45 <elliott> and even emulate equity enforcement with them
20:41:48 <ais523> basically, it's tradeable pledges
20:41:56 <ais523> you write a message, you can give it to other people
20:42:02 <ais523> and they can spend it to make you send it
20:42:19 <elliott> ais523: can we finally define infinitesimal time to allow message ordering to be formally defined at the same time?
20:42:23 <elliott> that'd be useful, to define "message"
20:42:33 <elliott> ais523: (otherwise it might be judged that you have to include headers too! :D)
20:42:43 <ais523> there's an argument about that atm (my contested registration)
20:43:02 <ais523> I tried to get it as close to the player/not-a-player borderline as possible, I think I judged it quite well
20:43:45 <elliott> hmm, I wonder why I haven't made any bitcoins yet
20:43:52 <elliott> possibly they haven't passed my set 0.01 pool threshold
20:44:34 <elliott> "Bitcoin is a form of domestic terrorism because it only harms the economic stability of the USA and its currency" ;; I hope nobody's actually said this...
20:44:54 <elliott> "Bitcoins are stored in wallet files, just copy the wallet file to get more coins!" ;; lol :D
20:45:02 <elliott> this faq is great, bunch of stupid questions :)
20:46:12 <ais523> the thing that prevents the coin copying is that if you spend both copies, only one can be baked into a block by whoever's mining (or it isn't a valid block), and they get to choose which of the transactions is valid
20:46:17 <Sgeo> elliott, actual criticism I have: All transactions are public. Even though the identities are conceiled, it may be worked out what's going on to some degree
20:46:30 <Gregor> OK, I have returned to calmness (also home :P )
20:46:43 <ais523> if someone apparently sends you bitcoins, you're supposed to wait for a chain past that point to build up to be sure you actually have them and they wern't lying
20:46:50 <elliott> ais523: practically, it's that you have to rewrite the rest of history to get anything to trust you, IIRC
20:47:11 <elliott> ais523: but yeah, when the faucet gave me 0.05 coins it started off unconfirmed
20:47:14 <elliott> now it's up to 42 confirmations
20:47:19 <ais523> and even then, it only lets you double-spend your own coins
20:47:23 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
20:47:38 <elliott> "Nick Clegg tops April Fools poll after pretending to keep a pre-election promise"
20:47:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I HOPE YOU ENJOYED THAT PING
20:49:43 <elliott> [[Bitcoin community are anarchist/conspiracy theorist/gold standard weenies
20:52:23 <zzo38> Do you have a Windows binary of ImageMagick for Fourier transforming?
20:54:03 <ais523> elliott: interesting approach
20:55:55 <elliott> <Sgeo> elliott, actual criticism I have: All transactions are public. Even though the identities are conceiled, it may be worked out what's going on to some degree
20:56:00 <elliott> Sgeo: You can create a new address for every transaction.
20:56:13 <quintopia> elliott: question: if I have coins in my wallet, that were sent to my keypair A, can I transfer them to keypair B without leaving a trace connecting keypair A and B?
20:56:21 <ais523> elliott: but you can figure out how each coin was traded
20:56:28 <ais523> so you'd need to do some sort of crazy money laundering
20:56:34 <elliott> quintopia: only if you refuse to pay the transaction fee
20:56:36 <ais523> say by converting them to real-word currency and back
20:56:48 <elliott> quintopia: which is Bad Behaviour
20:57:14 <ais523> elliott: well, the previous history of owners of every bitcoin is recorded; it has to be , or it wouldn't work
20:57:21 <elliott> ais523: re: tracking things, I suspect it would get lost in the noise
20:58:32 <quintopia> elliott: but wouldn't you, in that case, be paying a transaction fee to yourself?
20:58:52 <elliott> quintopia: err, no, you just wouldn't pay one at all
20:59:26 <quintopia> and how would it record that you changed the key you are using for the coin
20:59:35 * elliott tries to figure out whether "Building nuclear reactor at home - from scratch" is an AF or not
21:00:46 <zzo38> What happens with FFT, if you switch the magnitude and phase? What happen if you mirror the phase image and leave the magnitude as is? What if you did the other way around?
21:01:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: oh, comments prove that it's certainly plausible (although not actually a nuclear reactor), but I'm still not sure
21:01:21 <elliott> zzo38: Things. Various things.
21:01:26 <elliott> Changes in the result according to the changes you make.
21:01:32 <Gregor> http://notalwaysright.com/lindsay-lohan-is-bad-for-your-health/10933 Bahaha
21:02:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/ggg43/guys_ive_just_built_tiny_nuclear_reactor_at_home/
21:02:28 <ais523> elliott: you got one from the distributed block-finding thing?
21:02:36 <elliott> ais523: no, see the url above
21:02:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: bitcoins start with a lot of 0s
21:02:44 <elliott> so my mental pattern matcher has now short-circuited
21:03:11 <ais523> you saw three gs at the start of the URL, thought "that's unlikely", and assumed it was valuable?
21:03:15 <Gregor> "Tiny" and "nuclear reactor" don't go so well together ...
21:03:21 <elliott> Gregor: it's not a real nuclear reactor
21:03:28 <elliott> ais523: apparently I'll get an email once I reach the stunning total of 0.01 bitcoins
21:03:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yes; the title seems AF-geared, though
21:03:50 <elliott> ais523: because i turned on email on payout :)
21:03:55 <ais523> I've actually thought of a potential problem that isn't addressed there
21:04:14 <elliott> er, in what? bitcoins? reactors?
21:04:49 <ais523> the way mining works, if you want consistent payouts rather than gambling - and probably most people will - it's in your interests to join the largest mining group
21:04:57 <ais523> which would over time lead to the smaller ones collapsing
21:05:08 <elliott> ais523: that's not quite true
21:05:09 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:05:15 <ais523> which would give the people in charge of the group a lot of control
21:05:25 <elliott> ais523: it's been shown that over infinite time, ignoring difficulty changes, the payout of a group ~= the payout of doing it manually
21:05:29 <elliott> (or even ==, I'm not sure)
21:05:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, cobalt-60 doesn't even emit gamma radiation without decaying, it just emits gamma radiation when it beta decays.
21:05:32 <Gregor> elliott: OK, so from skimming that, I agree; it's not a nuclear reactor, it's a nuclear flashlight :P
21:05:45 <elliott> ais523: if you have limited hardware, a group is infinitely better because of difficulty increases and time
21:05:46 <ais523> elliott: it's the same on average, but it's more consistent in a group
21:05:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Not as bad as it saying that GFMs are unitless, I suppose.
21:05:55 <ais523> and more consistency = good for most people
21:06:04 <elliott> ais523: but if you have a bunch of good GPUs, a pretty sustained rate of 50 bitcoins is far nicer looking
21:06:10 <elliott> ais523: than a steadier rate of a lot less
21:06:27 <elliott> ais523: and, let's face it, "most people" aren't going to mine
21:06:37 <elliott> they'll get bitcoins in far more reasonable ways (assuming "most people" adopt it, that is)
21:06:49 <ais523> they probably are if bitcoin catches on, otherwise transaction fees will go up very high
21:07:14 <elliott> well, they'll set their idle resources to it, I suppose, but mining without a GPU is already hideously impractical
21:08:52 <elliott> what I mean is, I got bored enough to check out a GPU miner before I mined anything with a CPU
21:09:14 <ais523> GPU is just much better for that sort of thing
21:10:14 * elliott tries to figure out the words to justify a GPU cluster as a financial investment
21:12:28 <elliott> I wonder if the EFF will appreciate a ~5 cent donation
21:15:34 <elliott> argh, my wm has fucked up again
21:15:43 <ais523> elliott: I bet they will
21:15:49 <ais523> not very much, but slightly
21:16:05 <elliott> I think I'll hoard my bitcoins until I have more than that :-P
21:16:12 <elliott> seriously though, argh, why does my wm do this
21:17:22 -!- elliott has quit (Disconnected by services).
21:17:25 -!- elliott has joined.
21:17:33 <elliott> I should run the miner on the console instead... or just ditch X entirely
21:17:36 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
21:17:36 -!- elliott has joined.
21:21:38 -!- augur has joined.
21:25:12 <elliott> oh, my total reward so far is ~0.00065 bitcoins
21:25:45 <elliott> ais523: ugh, you re-re-did the c-intercal build system?
21:25:49 <elliott> oh god, don't tell me it was esr
21:26:05 <ais523> and I redid it myself in order to stop him
21:26:14 <ais523> but that was months ago
21:26:15 <elliott> ais523: why did he want to redo it?
21:26:22 <ais523> generated files in the repo, of all things
21:26:26 <ais523> which should be irrelevant
21:26:35 <ais523> no, he wanted there to be none at all
21:26:48 <ais523> so basically it was a case of writing a bootstrap shellscript that could generate all the files from scratc
21:26:52 <elliott> "The floating-point library is now automatically included if
21:26:52 <elliott> a program NEXTs to labels in the range 5000-5999."
21:26:52 <ais523> previously they generated each other
21:27:03 <elliott> I'm going through them to ew at them
21:27:04 <ais523> and only if it doesn't contain any label in that range
21:27:07 <ais523> which he forgot to specify
21:27:32 <ais523> elliott: it's the way INTERCAL library inclusion has Always Worked, just NEXT to a line that doesn't exist and it tries to find an appropriate library
21:27:54 <elliott> "Bugs reported by Elliott Hird" yaey im fameous
21:28:26 <elliott> but Vorpal got the credit for one
21:28:32 <elliott> which is the grossest injustice
21:28:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OMG YOU'RE FAMOUS TOO
21:29:00 <elliott> ais523: you forgot to call him Adhahamhamhmahmahhmanhnmhanhahn McSomething
21:29:03 <elliott> at least I think he's said he's McSomething
21:29:04 <Sgeo> http://www.catb.org/~esr/intercal/NEWS.html
21:29:27 <Sgeo> How bad was the typo?
21:29:43 <elliott> 29. The function clock_gettime is now supported by the yuk profiler as an
21:29:44 <elliott> alternative method of getting a high-resolution clock for profiling (it
21:29:44 <elliott> is available on at least Linux).
21:29:44 <Sgeo> Did it have the capacity to end all life on Earth? That would be a very nasty typo
21:30:07 <elliott> ais523: you switched from tar to pax because POSIX deprecated the former in favour of the latter (OBVIOUSLY THAT'S WHY), you should do the same for gettimeofday -> clock_gettime
21:30:14 <elliott> gettimeofday was removed in POSIX 2008, replaced by clock_gettime
21:30:19 <ais523> elliott: clock_gettime is used if it exists, IIRC
21:30:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: for what, what I said?
21:30:29 <elliott> read the posix standard yourself
21:31:01 <ais523> not only that, but the libraries and compiled programs now agree on which profiling function to use!
21:31:04 <ais523> (that bug was hilarious)
21:31:31 <elliott> ais523: how many optimisations are there? I'm wondering if I can wile away a few hours by creating more obvious ones and giving them to you
21:31:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you're in the readme
21:32:03 <elliott> which should be called Changelog
21:32:04 <ais523> elliott: quite a lot; aiming for flow rather than expression optimisation would probably help
21:32:13 <elliott> ais523: btw, have you informed esr that there are, in fact, modern INTERCAL implementations not derived from his?
21:32:23 <ais523> he's aware of CLC-INTERCAL, but ignores it
21:32:27 <elliott> he was under the impression that there weren't in his awful blog post
21:32:27 <ais523> which is a weird combination
21:32:33 <elliott> ais523: heh, what do you mean?
21:32:39 <ais523> he knows it exists, but refuses to act as if it does
21:32:39 <elliott> did you point out CLC and he said "Yeah yeah whatever"?
21:32:43 <ais523> I think it's an attempt to save sanity
21:32:56 <elliott> but what did he actually say when you pointed it out; or haven't you
21:33:01 <elliott> also, there's J-INTERCAL; not *that* modern, but still
21:33:14 <ais523> J- is just like a worse version of old-fashioned C-
21:33:24 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL has been intrinsically different forever
21:33:30 <ais523> and http://c.intercal.org.uk
21:33:38 <elliott> ais523: yes, but J- is both (1) pretty modern and (2) an INTERCAL implementation
21:34:09 <ais523> also, it seems that with 0.29, the tarball has /just/ creeped over a million bytes
21:34:43 <elliott> ais523: YOU SHOULD WRITE AN INTERCAL REPL
21:34:52 <elliott> that automatically increments statement numbers (and uses them as the prompt)
21:35:00 <ais523> oh, statement numbers?
21:35:02 <elliott> (so you can copy-paste lines into an intercal program directly, and also keep track of control flow... kinda)
21:35:11 <elliott> ais523: line numbers, whatever
21:35:12 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL has a REPL (INTERCALC), which I've actually used before now to do some quick INTERCAL calculations
21:35:19 <ais523> but it treats each statement independently
21:36:11 <elliott> how are statement numbers done again? (number)?
21:36:57 <elliott> (1) PLEASE DO COME FROM (2)
21:37:06 <ais523> elliott: that's an error already
21:37:07 <elliott> (2) PLEASE DO COME FROM (1)
21:37:14 <ais523> you mean (1) PLEASE DO COME FROM #2
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21:37:21 <ais523> which is a no-op rather than an error if the line doesn't exist
21:37:25 <ais523> the second line can stay the same
21:37:30 <elliott> ais523: the second line WILL exist
21:37:35 <elliott> ais523: you pretend every line exists already
21:37:36 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I can't remember
21:37:41 <elliott> ais523: but don't execute statements until the lines they depend on exist
21:37:42 <ais523> but it was pretty bad, I said the opposite of what I meant
21:38:55 <elliott> ais523: or _does_ the latter come into effect once (2) starts existing?
21:39:11 <elliott> (1) PLEASE DO READ OUT #1234
21:39:34 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL's WHILE would be useful for this, except it only applies to expressions
21:39:40 <elliott> the second line's output has to get removed
21:39:48 <ais523> DO statement WHILE expression executes the expression as soon as it makes sense and doesn't error
21:40:00 <ais523> and continues with the statement and the rest of the program
21:40:51 <ais523> elliott: clearly you need Feather
21:41:12 <elliott> hmm, is CLC-INTERCAL non-Free software too?
21:41:18 <ais523> it's BSD-licensed, IIRC
21:41:22 <ais523> or something very similar
21:41:26 <elliott> * 2. Any changes you make must be clearly identified by comments
21:41:26 <elliott> * (example: "this function rewritten by YOUR NAME to change the
21:41:26 <elliott> * way bogons are emitted")
21:42:01 <elliott> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lang.intercal/browse_thread/thread/669d38f639b60093 ;; uh oh, someone who actually believes that only github has git repositories
21:42:06 <ais523> elliott: it's three-clause BSD with some of the language changed for amusement value
21:42:15 <elliott> thankfully, I read their other thread and it looks like they're insane in the mundane, real-world sense
21:42:54 <ais523> or trolling, except that what's the point in trolling a.l.i?
21:43:01 -!- cpressey has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html (+Qdeql +Sceql +SMETANA) | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:43:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: is it meant to be watched with 1911 mode on?
21:43:14 <elliott> cpressey, always the marketer!
21:43:31 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, no, it should be watched so you can understand the SCIENCE?
21:43:31 <ais523> elliott: wait, it's April 1, why are you believing him?
21:43:45 <ais523> he might have been sneaky and put Thue and Unlambda in there instead!
21:43:51 <elliott> "Hmm. Indeed, this forum is indeed not very mephitic. And I *do* feel like escaping my matrix of solidity... aha! The solution to my woes!"
21:44:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: surely you've clicked the 1911 in the corner
21:46:18 <ais523> are things like 1911 mode kept forever?
21:46:29 <ais523> as in, accessible after April 1 via an URL param or whatever?
21:46:53 <elliott> ais523: well, TEXTp wasn't
21:47:01 <elliott> it makes every video better
21:47:14 <ais523> it makes it hard to hear the sound, and the picture's a bit flaky
21:47:31 <elliott> it makes it impossible to hear the sound, it's muted
21:48:04 <ais523> it wasn't so much a joke, as an understatement to make the sentence flow a bit better
21:48:27 <elliott> WOOO I'M ABOUT HALF WAY TO 0.01 BITCOINS
21:48:39 <elliott> this computer is not a very fast compuer.
21:49:30 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: off to implement another one I suppose).
21:51:29 <zzo38> I found LodePNG. It can use C or C++ (just rename the file and the compiler will use C mode or C++ mode). Probably I could remove the parts I don't need. Maybe I could convert the rest to CWEB? Would it work?
21:52:35 <elliott> meh, /me kills the miner for now, want to do some programming and it's too laggy
21:52:51 <elliott> I'll save it until I have a desktop with a decent GPU
21:54:55 <elliott> ais523: is gcc's [index] = foo array thing C99 or GNU C89+? I know you've used it, in DNA Maze
21:57:04 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
21:59:43 <elliott> register Cell tos asm("al");
21:59:44 <elliott> register Cell sos asm("ah");
22:00:14 <elliott> hmm, Befunge-93 programs have a hard limit to the number of stack they can use, right?
22:00:23 <elliott> because they have a maximum number of cycles
22:02:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:02:49 <elliott> oh wait, the befunge-93 stack is of 32-bit words
22:03:08 <elliott> gah, the x86 is so register starved
22:03:30 <elliott> ais523: quick! what's a non-eax general purpose register
22:03:36 <elliott> (as in _really_ general purpose :-P)
22:06:28 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:07:16 <elliott> oh, lame, fizzie's ff3 does exactly what mine is going to
22:07:43 <elliott> although it does break the standard
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22:15:37 <elliott> hmm, how random is rand()%4?
22:15:39 <Vorpal> <ais523> elliott: clock_gettime is used if it exists, IIRC <-- hm if you do that, where do you look for it? On Linux it is in librt.so iirc. On FreeBSD it is in libc.so I think.
22:15:53 <ais523> Vorpal: I look for it in autoconf
22:16:01 <ais523> I think by trying to link it to libc and librt and seeing what happens
22:16:23 <Vorpal> ais523, libc first I presume? Since iirc FreeBSD has librt as well... With different stuff
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22:16:38 <ais523> I think I try to link them both at once
22:16:39 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, that; well, yes, sure. Though I think it's even more characterized by the "different instruction implementations for all cardinal deltas" thing. (Though mooz's "bef" did that too.)
22:16:42 <zzo38> Does rand()&3 work? Does it work better, or worse, if there is a difference?
22:16:51 <elliott> fizzie: I'm doing that too, after seeing yours :P
22:17:01 <elliott> zzo38: it should obviously be identical, by the laws of &
22:17:11 <ais523> zzo38: it works worse than rand()/(RAND_MAX/4) on old implementations of rand(), and the same as rand()%4, obviously
22:17:17 <elliott> fizzie: You can't have non-cardinal deltas in -93, though.
22:17:18 <ais523> on modern implementations, all should be much the same
22:17:32 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, in df it seems that the z level counter can go to negative values... range on current map seems to be -17 - 120
22:17:42 <elliott> fizzie: I "plan" to turn it into a proper ripoff of jitfunge98, though.
22:18:02 <ais523> especially as modern compilers optimise %4 into &3 always
22:18:10 <Vorpal> <elliott> hmm, how random is rand()%4? <-- I would presume it depends on your libc.
22:18:11 <ais523> as bitwise AND is faster than integer MODULO
22:18:33 <ais523> elliott: typical LCRNGs, the high-order bits are more random than the low-order bits
22:18:34 <elliott> grr @ http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/doc/befunge93.html
22:18:46 <elliott> ais523: yeah, it's just befunge though, ? should be random enough with rand() :-D
22:18:55 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, such optimizations are helpful when macros are being used.
22:18:58 <fizzie> elliott: Right. I also had a version that macrologized in implementations on all (well, most) possible {stack cell type, playfield element type, another parameter, yet another parameter} option -- so you could select those options on runtime instead of compile-time -- but it grew too large for GCC to handle, I think.
22:19:35 <ais523> what I mean is that rand()/(RAND_MAX/4)) is a better implementation than rand()%4 on some systems, and equal on most others
22:19:35 <Vorpal> elliott, why do you want to do befunge93? Besides how many fingerprints did you do in your last befunge98 implementation? And did you publish the source anywhere?
22:19:38 <elliott> fizzie: Well, I'd quite like to optimise lines properly, too. But OTOH, proper threaded code JITting should be, you know, as fast as Forth, which is good enough for me.
22:19:42 <ais523> and thus generally a better implementation
22:19:46 <zzo38> (Other than that, there is not much advantage over entering those optimizations manually)
22:19:58 <elliott> ais523: but, that doesn't have the bitwise-and SPEEEEEEEEED
22:20:04 <ais523> especially as one is a shift and the other is a bitwise-and, and they're both as fast as each other
22:20:07 <elliott> unless RAND_MAX is a convenient power of two, and a macro
22:20:11 <elliott> or a constant, which I suppose is a given
22:20:26 <Vorpal> still one more instruction
22:20:30 <ais523> actually, you probably want (RAND_MAX+1)/4
22:20:35 <ais523> and allow for integer overflow
22:20:40 <zzo38> I didn't use the rand() command, I made the program, it has its own random number generator, the Xorshift algorithm. It will do modulo, but if the number is too high it will try again (this rarely happens).
22:20:46 <ais523> Vorpal: >> 28 compared to & 3?
22:20:51 <ais523> same instruction count either way
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22:21:30 <Vorpal> that assumes that RAND_MAX is not a lot smaller than INT_MAX
22:22:33 <elliott> fizzie: my main innovation, BTW, is to put the TOS into a register, and hopefully the SOS too if I can find another free register
22:22:37 <elliott> I'm not sure whether that will be an optimisation or not
22:23:50 <zzo38> Is this code OK? if(rng_w<=max_uint-(max_uint%limit)) return rng_w%limit; else <try again>
22:24:22 <Sgeo> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5508110/why-is-this-program-erroneously-rejected-by-three-c-compilers
22:25:00 <elliott> fizzie: How much does stringmode screw with your performance?
22:25:01 <fizzie> elliott: I did that -- well, I mean, I put TOS into a separate variable, which is sort-of analogous -- but didn't manage to make it any better than the simpler stack.
22:25:05 -!- mtve has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:25:18 <elliott> Sort of analogous except it won't go into a register at all :P
22:25:41 <zzo38> I do not think the C standard requires that a compiler supports handwriting recognition.
22:25:54 <fizzie> elliott: Well, that's up to the compiler; certainly it could.
22:26:25 <fizzie> elliott: I might have tried declaring it as a file-scope register variable too, in which case it definitely will.
22:26:37 <elliott> Definitely? I thought gcc likes to ignore register.
22:26:46 <elliott> Is there a Befunge-93 benchmark? :-P
22:26:50 <fizzie> Not if you name the register.
22:27:19 <fizzie> "Global register variables reserve registers throughout the program. This may be useful in programs such as programming language interpreters which have a couple of global variables that are accessed very often."
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22:28:03 <olsner> uses global register variables
22:28:08 <elliott> fizzie: Yes; you didn't specify you named the register, though.
22:28:27 <olsner> elliott: throughout the last 2-3 years I believe
22:28:38 <elliott> olsner: I mean, in which case.
22:29:03 <elliott> every time you declare a global?
22:29:11 <olsner> I mean, just generally stores some data in dedicated registers that are reserved throughout the runtime of the program
22:29:28 <fizzie> elliott: Well, I don't really recall what all I tried, to be honest. Anyhoo, re stringmode, that's not very clever; as a matter of fact, at " it just calls a push_string() function, which isn't even constant-delta parametrized.
22:30:15 <fizzie> And re benchmarks, the only thing I've used is the "run life.bef for N seconds, measure the amount of generated output", which is... pretty bad, as far as benchmarks go.
22:30:49 <elliott> hmm, does Output Integer output a space after like funge-98?
22:30:51 <fizzie> Also here's what ff2 tried to do: http://p.zem.fi/mf5a.c ... it didn't quite turn out well.
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22:32:16 <elliott> Maybe I'll just only support 64-bit processors.
22:32:44 <olsner> is this for your miniforth?
22:33:02 <fizzie> ff3 puts three zeroes underneath the the stack so that it can just do the operation without worrying about the stack, and then fix it up later. (I think it was an optimization in at least some cases.)
22:33:25 <elliott> olsner: Feel free to code a compiler for that and maybe I'll start working on it again :P
22:33:25 <olsner> does that mean you've dropped the forth thing or that it's done?
22:33:33 <fizzie> (I shamelessly stole the wrapping thing from mooz, too.)
22:33:41 <elliott> fizzie: Heck, I'm not even bothering to check at all.
22:33:51 <elliott> olsner: A compiler would probably be pretty easy, but I'm lazy.
22:34:07 <fizzie> (ff1 used to wrap by having a 256x256 playfield and byte-sized ops, but that's pretty slow since it has a huge playfield to walk around in regular-sized programs.)
22:34:17 <olsner> bah, "above" is not nearly specific enough for me to look it up
22:34:30 <elliott> olsner: <elliott> olsner: Feel free to code a compiler for that and maybe I'll start working on it again :P
22:34:41 <olsner> oh, for the forth thing
22:35:10 <olsner> I might! I don't really know how to do forth though
22:35:26 <elliott> olsner: All a compiler has to do is allocate a dictionary entry, and then look words up, and append them with either CALL or RET to the dictionary entry.
22:35:39 <elliott> olsner: Well, technically some words have compile-time semantics. But I think colorForth gets around this.
22:35:42 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, it seems that ff3 has a -DUNSAFE_STACK=1 compile-time option for a no-underflow-checking stack too. (Since I generally don't pop from the empty stack myself.)
22:35:47 <elliott> So no worries, branches can be handled later :P
22:35:56 <olsner> elliott: you make it sound like it's trivial - that would imply that you're stupid
22:35:59 <elliott> fizzie: You still break the spec for /.
22:36:03 <elliott> olsner: No - it would imply that I'm lazy.
22:36:24 <elliott> fizzie: Now to figure out how to do # without breaking my code structure :P
22:36:31 <elliott> Maybe I could temporarily overwrite the next command with a nop.
22:36:44 <elliott> Except figuring out the next command is non-trivial, because my delta functions also interpret.
22:38:01 <fizzie> elliott: You mean the "won't ask the user for /0" thing? It's not exactly stated in the http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/doc/befunge93.html spec, I don't think. Though I admit it would be the more proper thing to do.
22:38:13 <elliott> fizzie: It would be SO PROPER
22:38:44 <elliott> gah, the & spec is so vague
22:38:51 <fizzie> Funge-98 spec says Befunge-93 is supposed to ask the user, but I don't think that quite counts as a specified thing.
22:39:09 <fizzie> It's like C++ spec saying things about what C does. :p
22:39:14 <elliott> Also also, is there a way to tell gcc to fill the rest of an array initialised with [x] = y constructs with a certain value?
22:39:38 <fizzie> For a certain value of 0 that's easy. :p
22:40:04 <elliott> And does ~ reflect on EOF?
22:40:07 <fizzie> Don't think there's anything else, unfortunately.
22:40:29 <fizzie> There's not much reflecting going on in the '93 land.
22:40:46 <elliott> What's ~ do then, push -1?
22:41:12 <fizzie> You could test against the reference implementation, of course.
22:41:21 <elliott> Although EOF is not guaranteed to be -1.
22:43:33 <elliott> fizzie: According to some talk page nobody, values on the stack should be a "signed long int".
22:43:37 <elliott> According to the Befunge-93 documentation.
22:45:02 <zzo38> LodePNG is written by one guy who also did some things with esolangs too.
22:47:00 <elliott> fizzie: Hunh, what's this with you supporting diagonal deltas?
22:47:29 <elliott> Ohh, I see what you mean with a fluhfluh for every fluhfluh.
22:47:33 <elliott> I'm doing it the boring way.
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22:58:02 <fizzie> Actually I do have this benchmark.bef I got from somewhere, but as far as benchmarks go it's alsp pretty poor. Full contents:
22:58:50 <fizzie> (At least it gets nice performance boost from the boundary-tracking wrapping.)
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23:42:21 * iconmaster is enjoying being locked in his matrix of solidity.
23:42:37 * oerjan is hating it with a passion
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23:51:29 <elliott> oerjan: What, you wanna be LIQUID? Get outta my house.
23:51:39 <elliott> GASEOUS maybe? NO WAIT: oerjan, FREED in his matrix of PLASMOLOGY.
23:51:46 <elliott> ...so Emacs Lisp is lexically scoped now.
23:55:07 <iconmaster> Whenever I see (defun ...) in Lisp, I think STOP TAKING THE FUN OUT OF MY SUBROUTINES.
23:59:17 <zzo38> iconmaster: Can those kind of things be changed with macros or something like that, so that you can use your own words?
00:01:14 <quintopia> is Links (or any of its variants) at all usable? do the missing features get irksome?
00:02:32 <zzo38> iconmaster: Is there some command in Lisp to rename commands? If there is, then you can use that in your own programs, maybe.
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00:04:48 <iconmaster> zzo38: IDK, I haven't gotten that far in my Lisp book i'm reading. I bet it's there, though. I actually dont know much Lisp.
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00:07:24 <quintopia> in fact, it was probably the first language to have a complete meta-programming language built in.
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00:12:39 <elliott> <quintopia> is Links (or any of its variants) at all usable? do the missing features get irksome?
00:12:47 <elliott> it's more usable than lynx, less usable than anything else.
00:12:57 <elliott> elinks supports slightly more than links I think, but most people seem to prefer links.
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00:13:03 <elliott> also links has that graphical mode that can even work on the framebuffer.
00:14:52 <quintopia> my real question is "can it run gmail right"
00:15:27 <elliott> quintopia: you mean the javascript version?
00:15:43 <quintopia> i know links and variants support js
00:15:59 <zzo38> The only telephone in all of hell (local calls only, please).
00:16:03 <elliott> links' js engine was removed IIRC
00:16:06 <elliott> because it was unsalvagably shit
00:16:16 <elliott> quintopia: why don't you want to use a graphical browser, anyway
00:16:39 <elliott> <elliott> quintopia: why don't you want to use a graphical browser, anyway
00:16:56 <elliott> quintopia: conkeror. vimperator
00:17:05 <elliott> both much easier to use w/ kb than links
00:17:18 <elliott> considering they're designed for it, yes.
00:17:32 <elliott> conkeror if you want emacs. vimperator if you want vim.
00:17:35 <quintopia> they don't require me to memorize thousands of keyboard shortcuts do they?
00:17:44 <quintopia> i want it to be obvious which keys do what
00:17:56 <elliott> a key is just a single letter. it is impossible for it to be self-documenting.
00:18:23 <quintopia> like the way irssi maps keys to windows
00:18:35 <elliott> ok. so that's a single numerical selection done.
00:18:38 <elliott> and you can only have one of them
00:18:41 <quintopia> it doesn't have to be self-documenting, jsut intuitive
00:18:44 <elliott> that does not in any way generalise.
00:18:57 <elliott> intuitive is another word for familiar. you are evidently new to these kinds of browsers.
00:19:04 <elliott> thus apart from the common subset shared with editors, it cannot be intuitive.
00:19:24 <elliott> http://www.asktog.com/papers/raskinintuit.html
00:19:28 <elliott> intuitive equals familiar.
00:19:42 <quintopia> no, they are similar concepts, but not the same
00:19:51 <elliott> quintopia: anyway, if you actually want it, learning a dozen or so keys is trivially a sunk cost.
00:20:04 <elliott> if you use a browser often, it would be difficult for them not to stick.
00:20:05 <quintopia> intuitive means "there is a ready metaphor for mapping the new ideas to familiar ones"
00:20:13 <quintopia> they don't have to already be familiar in themselves
00:20:25 <quintopia> but yeah a dozen doesn't sound bad
00:20:32 <elliott> quintopia: http://www.asktog.com/papers/raskinintuit.html
00:20:38 <elliott> intuitive equals familiar.
00:20:41 <elliott> "there is a ready metaphor ..." = familiar.
00:20:53 <quintopia> why do you keep citing that page when i've already told you i disagree with it
00:21:07 <quintopia> or maybe i disagree with your use of "equals"
00:21:26 <elliott> quintopia: because you responded instantly and therefore have not read it
00:21:33 <elliott> (or you would have responded, "I've read that before")
00:22:23 <quintopia> it's very long. shall i go read it and come back and tell you whether i've changed my mind about disagreeing of your self-proclaimed summary of it?
00:22:25 <elliott> jef raskin is(/was) pretty much the god of human-computer interaction, so the article is well worth reading
00:22:36 <elliott> quintopia: yes. also, my summary is in fact the title.
00:22:54 <elliott> i don't really expect you'll change your mind as people rarely do, at least not immediately, but *shrug*
00:23:03 <quintopia> how can i agree with a paper when i disagree with its title?
00:24:03 <elliott> how many people will disagree vehemently when they hear "Property is theft!" and on further consideration of Proudhon's words, agree?
00:24:07 <elliott> I'd say significantly more than zero.
00:24:18 <elliott> the article is to convince you that the title means something, and that that meaning is true
00:24:41 <elliott> you are expected, therefore, to have an open mind about the topic in question for the duration of reading and mentally processing the article. this is how things work, I think.
00:26:27 <elliott> come ooon, bitcoins! get mined!
00:27:01 <elliott> i'm getting like 5.6 megahashes/sec
00:27:09 <elliott> and people with real graphics cards get >300
00:27:39 <quintopia> i can agree with the part where it says "intuitive = uses readily transferred, existing skills." that's almost exactly what i said earlier.
00:28:17 <elliott> quintopia: then what is your definition of familiar
00:28:18 <elliott> 22:19:35: <Vorpal> elliott, why do you want to do befunge93? Besides how many fingerprints did you do in your last befunge98 implementation? And did you publish the source anywhere?
00:28:28 <elliott> Vorpal: I wanted to do befunge-93 because I dunno, I felt like I could get it fast.
00:28:55 <elliott> [~/Code/shiro/Shiro/Fingerprints]% l *.hs
00:28:55 <elliott> BOOL.hs DIRF.hs EVAR.hs FILE.hs FING.hs MODU.hs NULL.hs REFC.hs ROMA.hs
00:29:06 <elliott> (One of those is incomplete; I forget which.)
00:29:10 <Vorpal> I just hope it don't die next time you move to another computer
00:29:18 <elliott> I could easily add more, but I'm waiting on a monadic epiphany to reduce code clutter.
00:29:22 <quintopia> familiar means basically "automatic" in my mind. muscle memory. no remapping is needed, because you've done this before, you've got this.
00:29:29 <Vorpal> elliott, thus I hope you uploaded the source somewhere
00:29:43 <Vorpal> also, how else could it get into mycology?
00:29:47 <elliott> Vorpal: It still passes Mycology in less than a second.
00:29:57 <elliott> I suspect that would be quicker were I not running that miner. Maybe.
00:30:41 <quintopia> elliott: yes. i would agree with familiar=known
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00:30:55 <elliott> Vorpal: re: another computer, it won't.
00:31:05 <elliott> Vorpal: I haven't uploaded it yet but I will do once I restructure it and add enough to run slowdown.b98.
00:31:24 <elliott> then I'll replace the fungespace with that one I was considering to make that go quickly.
00:31:30 <elliott> What do you mean by how else could it get into Mycology?
00:32:08 <Vorpal> elliott, Deewiant's style of funge space? Or your own?
00:32:26 <elliott> You mean the one Deewiant has now or the one Deewiant wishes he had (k-d tree)?
00:32:40 <Vorpal> elliott, either actually
00:32:58 <elliott> I was planning on a bounding volume hierarchy type thing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounding_volume_hierarchy), because a random Stack Overflow comment said it was usually lighter-weight than k-d trees. Also I /msg'd Deewiant about it and he said it might be suitable. :p
00:33:01 <Vorpal> elliott, besides wasn't k-d to organise the boxes or such?
00:33:13 <elliott> Well, yes. But "the boxes" are just flat arrays.
00:33:28 <elliott> I might go with a quadtree in-between because it's easy.
00:33:33 <elliott> But I don't think that'd help with slowdown, much.
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00:34:13 <elliott> But anyway, I'm pretty happy with Shiro as it is; it passes Mycology with flying colours, and quickly; it doesn't leak memory (that I know of); etc.
00:34:23 <elliott> And it's still less than 4000 lines last I checked.
00:34:28 <Vorpal> elliott, tried valgrind on it?
00:34:40 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't think it'd like the GC.
00:34:55 <Vorpal> elliott, valgrind can manage with some GCs. It doesn't crash for all...
00:35:07 <quintopia> elliott: is shiro now a complete impl of b98?
00:35:10 <elliott> I can >/dev/null with valgrind, right?
00:35:14 <Vorpal> elliott, For example, with python's GC it just spews errors, instead of crashing.
00:35:19 <elliott> quintopia: It's been a complete impl since about day three or four :P
00:35:23 <Vorpal> elliott, I think valgrind goes to stderr yes
00:35:50 <elliott> Hmm, valgrind sure does slow a program down.
00:35:51 <Vorpal> elliott, more like mid-morning day three
00:36:07 <elliott> Well, whatever. Early on :)
00:36:15 <elliott> Uh, I should probably do --leak-check=full?
00:36:19 <elliott> At least it printed no errors, just summaries.
00:36:22 <Vorpal> elliott, but anyway, it wouldn't have been that fast without the constant help of Deewiant
00:36:23 <elliott> It "suppressed" 4 from 4, though.
00:36:41 <Vorpal> elliott, suppressed is about stuff in libc.
00:36:41 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, actually, after I figured out how profiling works most of the optimisation was me.
00:36:45 <elliott> Apart from that one stupid function.
00:36:56 <elliott> It was the *compliance* that Deewiant helped shitloads with :P
00:37:05 <elliott> (I know how profiling works, I mean, I just didn't know how to get GHC to do it.)
00:37:11 <Vorpal> elliott, like, strlen optimised because it knows it can access invalid memory as long as it doesn't cross a page boundary
00:37:32 <Vorpal> <elliott> It was the *compliance* that Deewiant helped shitloads with :P <-- that is what I meant
00:37:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant fast, as in fast development
00:37:49 <Vorpal> not fast as in fast execution
00:38:12 <elliott> Well, see, Deewiant is the only person who knows the details of Deewiantfunge-98, which is the language that every Mycology-compliant interpreter implements :P
00:38:32 <elliott> ==18138== 98,964 (384 direct, 98,580 indirect) bytes in 3 blocks are definitely lost in loss record 16 of 16
00:38:32 <elliott> ==18138== at 0x4C2815C: malloc (vg_replace_malloc.c:236)
00:38:32 <elliott> ==18138== by 0x593FAE2: __gconv_open (gconv_open.c:197)
00:38:32 <elliott> ==18138== by 0x593F5F1: iconv_open (iconv_open.c:72)
00:38:32 <elliott> ==18138== by 0x4AA0C4: ??? (in /home/elliott/Code/shiro/shiro)
00:38:42 <elliott> Dunno what that's about. (With --leak-check=full.)
00:38:48 <elliott> Anyway: ==18138== Reachable blocks (those to which a pointer was found) are not shown.
00:38:53 <elliott> Pretty sure the GC keeps a pointer to things.
00:39:17 <elliott> And I'm also pretty sure that garbage can be left un-freed if they escape the GC. Say it's conservative, or the program ends before it gets GC'd.
00:39:22 <elliott> So I wouldn't trust valgrind much here.
00:39:25 <Vorpal> elliott, "Deewiantfunge-98" is one of the saner interpretations of the confusing standard. As far as I know the only direct contradiction he makes towards the standard is making t actually work.
00:39:37 <elliott> Vorpal: also y's interpretation of bounds
00:39:47 <elliott> unless you consider the statement that something is useful for something else bound by sanity and taking precedence over the previous line
00:39:54 <Vorpal> elliott, Nope. The standard contradict itself there.
00:40:02 <elliott> it just doesn't use the same definition of useful as you
00:40:06 <Vorpal> elliott, It is said to be suitable iirc?
00:40:18 <elliott> also, it's in italics, and written informally, which makes me question its normativity
00:40:26 <Vorpal> elliott, should ask cpressy next time he shows up
00:40:27 <elliott> but even if you accept it, you have to assume "useful" is used sanely
00:40:37 <elliott> and binding the Funge-98 standard to sanity is a bad idea :-D
00:40:39 <Vorpal> elliott, come on, the whole standard is written pretty informally :P
00:40:51 <elliott> Vorpal: re: cpressey: I think he's heard enough about Funge-98 for one lifetime :P
00:40:58 <elliott> And seems to know the spec less well than we do.
00:41:06 <quintopia> elliott: as i recall, there was still a major bug past day 7 which prevented it from being called an implementation at all
00:41:26 <elliott> If you mean the "o" thing, yes, that took a little while to fix.
00:41:38 <Vorpal> elliott, what o thing btw?
00:41:42 <elliott> Vorpal: text mode, I think.
00:41:48 <elliott> I implemented o but did it a bit wrongly, because I hadn't bothered to get it right yet.
00:41:50 <Vorpal> ah yes that one is a PITA
00:41:54 <elliott> But since o is optional, I could flip one bit and everything would be fine :P
00:41:59 <elliott> (in y, and also make o reflect)
00:42:25 <elliott> anyway, running slowdown and running fungot are the priorities, in that order. but it's still pending on me figuring out a nice way to express the maybe stacks.
00:42:25 <fungot> elliott: and are you really interested or are you just rather stuck as to what the point is that using your own macros. at least not for implementing scheme?
00:42:31 <Vorpal> elliott, text and binary more in i and o don't correspond at all in functionality :P
00:42:39 <fungot> elliott: allocate to that result ( i.e., he's probably devoting much more time
00:43:16 <elliott> so i think rcfunge is now completely unmaintained
00:43:20 <elliott> last release april 2010 by susan
00:43:30 <elliott> not that cfunge has had a more recent release, admitteldy
00:43:42 <elliott> did you ever implement that O(1) wrapping?
00:43:55 <Vorpal> elliott, hm nope, forget. Will look at it this weekend.
00:44:16 <Vorpal> elliott, and then probably get a release out some day soon. The code is pretty stable nowdays.
00:44:24 <elliott> i cheated with that one, spawned a new thread to look into the trivial problem rather than devoting brain cells to it
00:44:34 <elliott> (aka: asked my reading-mathematics friend)
00:44:46 <elliott> (just to give him a taste of what his degree will go towards!)
00:44:50 <elliott> (being bugged with trivialities!)
00:44:56 <Vorpal> elliott, wait what? I don't get the context of that line "<elliott> i cheated with that one, [...]"
00:45:19 <elliott> and reading is the Posh(tm) term for studying, before you ask
00:45:30 <Vorpal> elliott, what math friend? oerjan?
00:45:40 <elliott> no. not someone in this channel
00:45:49 <Vorpal> elliott, what's wrong with oerjan?
00:45:50 <elliott> and I think oerjan's mathematics got read quite some time ago :D
00:45:58 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't trust him to actually do work :D
00:46:12 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean he will tell you to do it yourself?
00:46:54 <elliott> hmm, I used System.Posix.Env rather than foreign.
00:47:21 <elliott> class (Show fp, Typeable fp,
00:47:21 <elliott> Typeable (FPGlobalState fp),
00:47:38 <Vorpal> <elliott> hmm, I used System.Posix.Env rather than foreign. <-- why is that an issue?
01:02:14 <elliott> huh, multics was written in a (relatively) HLL (for the 60s)
01:09:50 <oerjan> <elliott> Vorpal: i don't trust him to actually do work :D <-- YOU ARE WISE BEYOND YOUR YEARS. well, sometimes.
01:12:17 <zzo38> Someone in this channel said before that draws occur 50% in cricket. I suppose one way to make draws occur less often is to make the rules changed a bit during the last half hour of play.
01:13:03 <Vorpal> wait, do we have someone who actually understand the rules of cricket in here?
01:13:20 <Vorpal> I thought that was impossible unless you played it
01:13:49 <elliott> wow, the word "forum" for a BBS dates back to the 60s (multics)
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01:14:29 <zzo38> Vorpal: It isn't impossible. It is just a bit difficult.
01:16:35 <Vorpal> zzo38, ... ... ... I suggest you look up hyperbole in a dictionary.
01:18:12 <elliott> hmm, multics has similarities to my system
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01:18:37 <zzo38> elliott: What similarities?
01:20:47 <elliott> the fs/ram unification, use of paging, use of REPL as shell...
01:20:51 <elliott> "502 Bad Gateway" --mining.bitcoin.cz
01:20:53 <elliott> i don't like the sound of that, nginx
01:23:06 <zzo38> Can you please tell me what REPL means?
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01:33:28 <elliott> zzo38: Read-Eval-Print-Loop.
01:33:44 <elliott> (define (repl) (display (eval (read))) (newline) (repl)) ;; an example (minimal) REPL in scheme
01:33:59 <elliott> basically, a prompt that lets you input program snippets, have them evaluated, and see the result.
01:34:10 <elliott> an interactive shell is this for the language sh
01:34:58 <elliott> hey, algol 68 called a procedure printf. wonder if it does the same as c printf.
01:35:47 <elliott> more like a variadic print procedure
01:35:53 <elliott> printf (($2l"The sum is:"x, g(0)$, m + n)); ¢ prints the same as: ¢
01:35:54 <elliott> print ((new line, new line, "The sum is:", space, whole (m + n, 0))
01:37:02 -!- Gregor has changed nick to libc\x2Eso.
01:37:16 <elliott> What's it at now -- $5,000? Hit your limit yet?
01:37:34 <libc\x2Eso> I'm not going to discuss it in this channel.
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02:03:01 <elliott> 00:12:58: -!- Sgeo has joined #esoteric.
02:03:06 <elliott> Sgeo: that's a record time for finding christ
02:03:20 <elliott> you could enter the christianlympics
02:05:27 * elliott CACKLES EVILLY AS HE PLACES HIS $5,000 BID
02:06:02 <libc\x2Eso> `addquote 00:07:15: -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: IRC is taking up too much of my time. I need time to study the Bible and find Christ.). 00:12:58: -!- Sgeo has joined #esoteric.
02:06:04 <HackEgo> 344) 00:07:15: -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: IRC is taking up too much of my time. I need time to study the Bible and find Christ.). 00:12:58: -!- Sgeo has joined #esoteric.
02:06:52 <libc\x2Eso> Did you see when I said that the baker should support s/// lines? >: )
02:06:53 <elliott> `addquote 00:07 Sgeo has quit (IRC is taking up too much of my time. I need time to study the Bible and find Christ.) 00:12 Sgeo has joined #esoteric.
02:06:55 <HackEgo> 344) 00:07 Sgeo has quit (IRC is taking up too much of my time. I need time to study the Bible and find Christ.) 00:12 Sgeo has joined #esoteric.
02:07:06 <elliott> (Yes there's inconsistency wrt quit vs joined formatting, yes it looks better this way :P)
02:07:07 -!- wawawareya has changed nick to wareya.
02:07:18 <elliott> libc\x2Eso: I was gonna do a client plugin for that once :P
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02:12:27 <elliott> wonder what i was gonna say!!!!
02:12:45 <variable> elliott: btw: what about w3m vs links?
02:12:58 <elliott> variable: right. i like w3m a lot.
02:13:02 <elliott> it isn't really similar to links though.
02:13:08 <elliott> w3m is more like lynx that doesn't suck
02:13:14 <elliott> links is more like a graphical browser rendered to a tty
02:13:37 <libc\x2Eso> What we need is e.g. a WebKit backend for curses.
02:13:44 <libc\x2Eso> But it would be the best text browser.
02:14:01 <variable> libc\x2Eso: no. A Presto backend
02:14:27 <libc\x2Eso> variable: Good luck with convincing Opera :P
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02:14:55 <variable> best april fools joke today: "The GNOME Project is a community which comes together to make great software. "
02:15:09 -!- iconmaster has quit (Quit: I wish I had something witty to put here...).
02:15:21 <variable> libc\x2Eso: fine, find, Trident
02:15:32 <elliott> <variable> best april fools joke today: "The GNOME Project is a community which comes together to make great software. "
02:16:11 <libc\x2Eso> variable: Saying this as somebody who hates Apple and has painful experiences with WebKit, what do you have against WebKit?
02:17:11 <variable> libc\x2Eso: absolutely nothing
02:17:16 <elliott> I love how everyone (programmer) who hates Apple loves WebKit and LLVM, in fact the two seem almost directly correlated :P
02:17:32 <variable> elliott: I hate apple and love webkit and llvm :-p
02:18:01 <Sgeo> I have no opinion on WebKit, although I do use it. And I like the idea of LLVM, but know little about it. Then again, the fact that I rarely actually write code...
02:18:25 <libc\x2Eso> I have compiled WebKit. Many times. It has done things to me that are horribly inappropriate.
02:18:44 <elliott> libc\x2Eso: It's sorry, it's just... it's just... it's just somewhat Sparta *breaks down sobbing*
02:19:05 <elliott> IT'S SOMEWHAT SPAAAARTAAAA ;;;__;;;;
02:21:34 <variable> it has some insane optimizations - but is completely twisted
02:22:38 <elliott> the fact that js-heavy things are STILL quite slow IRL even with insane things like v8 worries me
02:22:45 <elliott> I dunno what causes it, though
02:22:48 <elliott> probably the DOM, nobody likes the DOM
02:24:50 <elliott> wow, the .p2p has turned into the worst proposal evar
02:24:55 <libc\x2Eso> Mainly DOM, rendering and the conversion layers between JS and the real implementation of the DOM.
02:25:05 <elliott> central authority (LOL), based on trusting existing CAs (LOL)
02:25:08 <elliott> "Require ownership of the same domain under another tld (like .net,.com,.org)"
02:25:13 <elliott> and first-come first serve
02:25:43 <elliott> previously it was to create a decentralised naming system after the revocation rights were abused
02:25:50 <elliott> oh, I think it was the wikileaks debacle
02:26:17 <libc\x2Eso> I want to own some semi-provocative .xxx domain with totally uninteresting content, just to be the only non-porn domain on .xxx (that doesn't just forward elsewhere)
02:26:36 <elliott> Just get scholarly-discussion.xxx
02:26:58 <elliott> UnofficialOverclockingEULA = I confirm that I am aware of unofficial overclocking limitations and fully understand that MSI will not provide me any support on it
02:27:06 <libc\x2Eso> Naw, I would get college-action.xxx and then it'll just be a discussion of various scholarly topics.
02:27:17 <quintopia> what is the character that in vim means "the entire file" (as a range)?
02:27:32 <elliott> libc\x2Eso: hot-college-teen-actions: What to do if you're a female college student and just need to cool down!
02:27:43 <elliott> Err, forgot to mention female in there.
02:27:49 <elliott> hot-teen-college-girl-action
02:29:03 <elliott> Sgeo: So did you find Christ?
02:29:44 <libc\x2Eso> hot-christ-on-college-girl-action.xxx // about college students finding Jesus
02:30:52 <Sgeo> elliott, I did find an empty cave...
02:31:03 <elliott> fuck-me-jesus-say-wet-lesbian-college-girls: Girls in college, who happen to be lesbian, after a water pistol fight, realise the inaccuracy of their previous beliefs and exclaim "Fuck me -- Jesus!", as an admittance that Jesus is the answer.
02:31:15 <Sgeo> Ok, that came out wrong. I did not intend for that to sound serious
02:31:28 <elliott> Sgeo: THAT EMPTY CAVE IS JESUS.
02:31:50 <elliott> libc\x2Eso: So anyway, about "semi-provocative" :P
02:32:13 <Sgeo> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/File:JesusOrgy.jpg
02:34:28 <oerjan> quintopia: for ex mode ranges, %
02:34:51 <oerjan> for normal mode, G provided you are at the beginning to start with
02:35:49 <oerjan> or 1G if you are at the end
02:36:04 <quintopia> can you give an s command that would replace the first letter of a word with F and the remaining letters with U?
02:36:14 <zzo38> I do not like a lot of the new TLDs.
02:36:27 <quintopia> i know vi doesn't support perl regexes, so i'm not sure how to do it
02:36:59 <oerjan> quintopia: you could replace all with U first, then replace the first with F
02:37:11 <zzo38> elliott: Doesn't matter. I still do not like a lot of the new TLDs.
02:37:24 <quintopia> i suppose s/./U/ would do the former. how do i do the latter?
02:37:30 <zzo38> (Go up above where .xxx was mentioned in this channel)
02:38:50 <oerjan> i was assuming vim, since that's what it started with
02:39:05 <zzo38> Perhaps .coop is not too bad, but I would restrict it to three letters, not four.
02:39:28 <elliott> zzo38: why? lots of country TLDs are two-characters
02:39:35 <elliott> no reason to not allow four characters
02:39:55 <zzo38> Yes, countries should be two letters and everything else three letters.
02:40:04 <zzo38> Any non-country should not be two letters.
02:40:18 <elliott> Deewiant: that has nothing to do with tlds
02:40:27 <elliott> And some countries are three letters, IIRC
02:40:46 <elliott> The proposal was soundly rejected every time, was it not
02:40:51 <quintopia> are you ever gonna become gregor again?
02:41:01 <zzo38> Well, I think countries should not be three letters. They should be two letters.
02:41:14 <elliott> "The ICANN Board voted to approve the sTLD on 18 March 2011."
02:41:23 <elliott> quintopia: because it is a terrible, terrible idea
02:41:34 <zzo38> I really dislike .mobi. TLDs should not be used for that kind of thing.
02:41:35 <elliott> lemme find the rfc about it
02:41:39 <libc\x2Eso> Because all the porn is already on .com
02:41:48 <quintopia> i think a TLD just for porn sites is a great idea
02:41:49 <libc\x2Eso> So having a separate TLD accomplishes nothing.
02:42:12 <elliott> i'm trying to find the long official paper about it
02:42:16 <elliott> quintopia: lol, you are joking right?
02:42:33 <elliott> sometimes i delay laughing at people in case they're being funny, not stupid, but usually that turns out to be misguided :/
02:42:35 <quintopia> man if i were a porn site, i'd totes want a .xxx name
02:42:39 <libc\x2Eso> If they forced all the porn there that would be terrible, and if they don't then it's pointless. Even if all new sites only went to .xxx, that's useless.
02:42:47 <elliott> quintopia: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3675
02:42:52 <elliott> RFC 3675, SEX CONSIDERED DANGEROUS
02:42:57 <elliott> (when rendered in ONLY UPPERCASE LETTERS)
02:43:06 <variable> .XXX was just a money making thing
02:43:24 <elliott> quintopia: When an RFC is created specifically to diss your idea in amazing detail, your idea SUCKS.
02:43:55 <elliott> Or is just SO BRILLIANT that it's beyond the combined efforts of the RFCers :)
02:44:06 <libc\x2Eso> The RFC is mostly about /forcing/ all relevant things to be on that TLD (or other such restrictions).
02:44:10 <variable> elliott: but the IETF knows EVERYTHIN
02:44:15 <libc\x2Eso> Nobody's forcing all porn to .xxx. Aside from being infeasible it's horrible.
02:44:37 <elliott> libc\x2Eso: I still hope the .xxx TOS REQUIRE adult content.
02:44:49 <libc\x2Eso> That would be pretty hilariously awesome :P
02:44:50 <variable> the porn sites *don't* want it in fear that it *will* be forced and thus lead to *censorship*
02:44:55 <Sgeo> Wait, .xxx is becoming real?
02:45:06 <elliott> 8. It is not acceptable to own an .xxx domain which does not respond to HTTP requests on port 80 with teh hot pr0nz.
02:45:19 <variable> libc\x2Eso: it wouldn't be hilariously awesome until they tried to enforce it
02:45:22 <elliott> 9. Lesbians cut registration fees by half
02:45:30 <Sgeo> The HEAD HTTP request will have to have new meaning
02:45:33 <variable> You don't have port: your domain is deregistered :-)
02:45:38 <quintopia> man, forcing them to go to xxx is stupid yes, but having .xxx at the end of your pron site domain is p awesome
02:45:58 <quintopia> i bet some of the bigger sites get the .xxx version of their .com name just so other people don't
02:45:59 <variable> quintopia: xxx.xxx and sex.xxx will be the most expensive I bet
02:46:07 <zzo38> TLDs should not be based on service or protocol or anything like that. They should be based on what country, or the owner group, or possibly also for special kind of networks. TLDs like .mobi or .gopher are dumb and do not meet this criteria. Also .cat is no good either, and .travel is also not so good.
02:46:11 <variable> quintopia: also - they do that for all the TLDs
02:46:30 <Sgeo> zzo38, I take it you hate .museum?
02:46:31 <variable> IMHO .com, .net, .org, countries
02:46:35 <quintopia> making .xxx happen will be very profitable to the TL registrars, and therefore it is a good idea
02:46:40 <elliott> <variable> You don't have port: your domain is deregistered :-)
02:46:44 <elliott> they'll use those auto porn detection systems
02:46:52 <elliott> and rig up the _no porn_ output to automatic deregistration
02:47:05 <elliott> ones that come up as porn will be forwarded on to agents for... uhhh... double checking
02:47:19 <elliott> FINALLY A SAFE HAVEN ON THE INTERNET WHERE PORN IS PROTECTED
02:47:29 <zzo38> Yes, same with .museum, since a museum could get .com or .org instead probably (depending on whether the museum is commercial)
02:47:39 <variable> IMHO .com, .net, .org, countries --> no more
02:47:42 <elliott> are they blocking .xxx or something?
02:47:51 <elliott> variable: that leaves no space for individuals
02:47:53 <elliott> also, i find country tlds lame
02:48:01 <elliott> AFAICT they're only ever used to reduce name conflicts
02:48:05 <variable> elliott: http://thenextweb.com/asia/2011/03/24/india-to-block-xxx-top-level-domain/
02:48:08 <elliott> or to show idiotic patriotism
02:48:22 <elliott> you give yourself a .me.uk, you move to America, your domain is now silly
02:48:28 <variable> elliott: IMHO country TLDs are basically for the government sites. I don't even want to see .co.uk or whatever
02:48:35 <elliott> your corporation gets a .fi, expands to become international, your domain is now silly
02:48:38 <variable> also they are useful for localization
02:48:48 <variable> although I prefer the http headers for that
02:48:51 <elliott> you create patriotismhooray.us, you put waving american flag gifs on it, I hate you
02:48:58 <elliott> variable: agreed wrt headers
02:49:01 <elliott> although they suck for users
02:49:06 <elliott> because nobody knows about them
02:49:16 <variable> elliott: the interface needs to expose a "pick a language for this site"
02:49:30 <elliott> variable: anyway, I would also add some personal TLD
02:49:32 <elliott> but it'd have to be non-lame
02:49:44 <variable> elliott: personal tld? ie for random people?
02:49:44 <elliott> .me is supremely lame (and yet another cctld abuse), .name is also lame
02:49:49 <elliott> mostly because of the first.last.name thing
02:49:56 <elliott> variable: for people in general
02:50:05 <elliott> people aren't organisations, corporations or ISPs
02:50:11 <elliott> yes, but .me is really cheesy.
02:50:24 <variable> elliott: I want to see the TLD meanings enforced though
02:50:38 <elliott> variable: Meh -- I don't like TLDs much
02:50:41 <quintopia> oerjan: does there exist a series of regex subsitutions that takes a string like "what the hell was elliott talking about?" and make it be "TROL OLO LOLO LOL OLOLOLO LOLOLOL OLOLOL"
02:50:57 <Sgeo> http://fuck.me ?
02:50:59 <zzo38> The OpenNIC are also pretty bad -- the things they use TLDs for are not what they should be used for, with the possible (maybe) exception of .null and .glue. Maybe even .micro. But all of them ought to be reduced to three letters, and .micro should be registered as subdomains for countries and then subdomains of those as the normal domains, so all .micro would need at least three parts of the domain name instead of two.
02:51:03 <elliott> variable: they're really just Yet Another attempt to impose a Great Ontology of Everything
02:51:11 <elliott> which never works and never will or can work
02:51:32 <variable> elliott: I don't necc. like a hierarchical system. But can you provide a different unique identifier per "site" ?
02:51:37 * Sgeo biCYCles on elliott's head
02:51:47 <variable> (that doesn't reduce to a hash or other non-rememberable thing)
02:51:50 <elliott> variable: I'm not sure. I'm also not sure you need to or want to.
02:51:54 <elliott> variable: Naming is very, very hard.
02:52:01 <zzo38> I have a gopher service too, but gopher is the protocol, it doesn't belong in the TLD.
02:52:04 <elliott> Naming is possibly the hardest thing in systems.
02:52:19 <variable> elliott: the two hardest things in computer science are naming things, cache invalidation, and off-by-one errors
02:52:25 <Sgeo> zzo38, so, you'd be opposed to gmail.email ?
02:52:33 <elliott> But naming is the hardest by far (for systems and not actual programming).
02:52:39 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes. I would be opposed to that too.
02:52:42 <elliott> variable: Anyway, while I'm not a complete decentralisation nut like some people, I do find DNS worrying.
02:53:14 <Sgeo> en.wikipedia.http
02:53:24 <elliott> variable: Anyway, squaring Zooko's triangle is still something I think about on a regular basis.
02:53:34 <Sgeo> illegalbooks.ftp
02:53:34 <elliott> http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/squarezooko seems quite promising.
02:53:58 <variable> elliott: I'm follow DNS and related constructs very closely (IETF mailing lists, NANOG, DNS-operations, etc) I find the discussion very interest
02:54:10 <elliott> variable: Yeah, I'm not the type to follow mailing lists religiously though.
02:54:13 <zzo38> The protocol does not belong in the TLD. If you have multiple computers on the network with different protocols, use the leftmost part to indicate the protocol, not the rightmost part.
02:54:14 <Sgeo> espresso.coffee
02:54:33 <Sgeo> im-a-teapot.coffee
02:54:35 <elliott> In @, a global name would actually just reference an object, and you only really ever need one: past that, you can handle your own naming to your heart's content. Of course the same applies to DNS.
02:54:55 <variable> elliott: agreed. the TLDs are just namespace reduction devices
02:55:00 <elliott> But in @ I'm pretty sure the naming system would just be a (bidirectional) map of name to object hash. (Object hash retrieval is a separate concern.)
02:55:03 <elliott> The issue is allocating this map.
02:55:21 <elliott> variable: you might want to read that blog post, it's very interesting
02:55:28 <Sgeo> elliott, how is BitCoin human-meaningful?
02:55:46 <zzo38> I think what Knuth said about naming things in computer science, in writing programs, is look in a thesaurus if you need help.
02:55:58 <variable> elliott: "dynamically translating between different possible kinds of names." --> this is how phonebooks work
02:56:01 <zzo38> To me, BitCoin is meaningful for experimental purposes only.
02:56:08 <elliott> variable: I do not mean the article on zooko's triangle :P
02:56:12 <elliott> variable: I mean http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/squarezooko
02:56:16 <elliott> and no, it's not really the same as a phonebook I don't think
02:56:29 <elliott> zzo38: bitcoin can be and is traded for real-world currency and goods
02:56:40 <variable> zzo38: Sgeo: bitcount is based on very unsound economics
02:56:42 <elliott> variable: I don't think anyone's proposed this before bitcoin
02:56:50 <elliott> bitcoin is perfectly sound
02:57:21 <zzo38> variable: Yes, is one thing I mean. BitCoin is good for experimental purposes.
02:57:25 <Sgeo> variable, I don't mean the economics part, although I'd be interesting in you describing how it's unsound. I'm more thinking how anyone thinks BitCoin has anything to do with human-meaningful names
02:57:28 <variable> elliott: reading that blog post
02:57:43 <elliott> please do respond about bitcoin, though
02:59:42 <variable> elliott: I don't have the time to defend myself right now, but the basic idea is that early adopters get a uncatchable advantage in event of a sudden increase in number of users
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03:00:02 <elliott> variable: please don't make such strong statements if you won't defend them.
03:00:06 <elliott> It's really bad for the discourse.
03:00:24 <variable> elliott: I'll defend it in a couple of days (ask me after monday)
03:00:31 <elliott> variable: Anyway, that is not really true at all: if you mean because mining gets harder and then ends, mining isn't the most efficient way to get bitcoins at all.
03:00:51 <elliott> have you read https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths?
03:01:04 <elliott> was that a yes to my have you read? it was quite quick.
03:01:30 <variable> elliott: I'm repeating the conclusion section of articles in economics journals
03:01:42 <variable> I understand the reasoning to a basic extent
03:01:53 <elliott> variable: There are plenty of articles making plenty of conclusions in plenty of journals.
03:02:15 <elliott> If you truly have discovered a fatal flaw in Bitcoin, I'm sure the developers would love to know about it, but I very much doubt it.
03:02:29 <variable> elliott: these flaws are not 'fatal' flaws
03:02:44 <elliott> You said "based on very unsound economics".
03:02:55 <elliott> Things that are based on very unsound things don't tend to be salvageable.
03:03:00 <variable> elliott: I should have said: 'possibly based on unsound ...'
03:03:44 <elliott> Anyway, it's getting a bit too close to conspiracy theories for me to state this without implicit quotes, but it has to be said that the kind of people who write in economics journals _might_ have slightly vested interests.
03:03:47 <variable> elliott: there are other issues relating to fraud and such (as in securities fraud, not "I have a fake bitcoin" fraud)
03:03:51 <elliott> Of course this should not affect the validity of the raw logic itself.
03:04:25 <variable> elliott: yes. Ask me after monday and I'll fully defend myself (or at least my understanding of the original author's argument)
03:04:42 <variable> my understanding of economics is minimal
03:04:45 <oerjan> quintopia: i don't know
03:04:59 <elliott> The only advantage early adopters of bitcoin have is that they can mine faster and more, and in a wider view, they are the only ones who can mine at all. But considering the real-world cash exchanges, the fact that you can buy substantial real-world goods with bitcoins (albeit not very commonly), and the fact that some people will even pay you for freelancing work in bitcoins (but again rarely), and I
03:04:59 <elliott> think that mining is irrelevant in the long-run.
03:05:18 <elliott> I don't think bitcoin is any more subject to securities fraud than any other currency.
03:05:21 <elliott> Anyway, that's my initial statement.
03:05:34 <elliott> Maybe I have a vested interest too as a miner is currently hogging up my utterly terrible GPU, but :)
03:06:18 <elliott> variable: So we're on the same page, can you agree that if Bitcoin was, in your opinion, not flawed in the economic thing, it would be a Very Good Thing?
03:07:07 <variable> elliott: I would still like the diversity that having multiple currencies gives (in event that something *does* happen) but in general I would agree that it is a Good Thing
03:07:22 <elliott> Oh, certainly, more currencies is a good thing.
03:07:33 <elliott> But they should have to compete :-)
03:07:55 <variable> "Tracing a coin's history can be used to connect identities to addresses. More info. " ---> this is also a major issue
03:08:14 <elliott> (It is possibly an impressive feat of cognitive dissonance to maintain slightly left-wing economic opinions and support bitcoin which is a very libertarian system; I haven't decided yet.)
03:08:39 <elliott> variable: that's true, but it is not as big a deal as it seems
03:08:46 <elliott> variable: for one, you can use a new address for every transaction if you wish
03:09:00 <elliott> variable: for two, you can avoid creating a new record by agreeing with the receiver to not pay the (optional) transaction fee
03:09:23 <elliott> variable: and three, if you really want to break any record, just convert it to another currency and back
03:09:33 <elliott> also: "While the Bitcoin technology can support strong anonymity, the current implementation is usually not very anonymous."
03:09:34 <variable> elliott: I've been described as a libertarian - but I disagree with some, but not all, libertarian views
03:09:48 <elliott> I'm a supporter of taxes :-p
03:10:14 <elliott> (Less ridiculously stated, I'm a supporter of public services, which require funds.)
03:10:28 <elliott> JOIN THE LIBRARIAN REVOLUTION
03:10:34 <elliott> BOOKS WILL SET US FREE!!!!
03:10:47 <elliott> variable: I never said libertarianism was anarchy.
03:10:51 <variable> elliott: I support *some* public services
03:11:02 <elliott> variable: But libertarians definitely oppose large (to them) taxes.
03:11:11 <zzo38> Which public services?
03:11:14 <elliott> variable: do you support single-payer healthcare? (to use the common term)
03:11:59 <variable> elliott: libertarians oppose unneeded taxes, but anarchists say 'taxes are wrong' (or many of them do)
03:12:23 <variable> single-payer healthcare -> basically no
03:12:28 <elliott> variable: the line is often blurred. consider those who desire no taxes but those which are required to support a police force
03:12:33 <variable> although my view is somewhat nuanced
03:12:38 <elliott> (or in ridiculous cases, a police force that somehow requires no taxes)
03:12:47 <Sgeo> elliott, how does not paying a transaction fee leave anything off the record?
03:13:00 <elliott> variable: then we disagree on a basically fundamental level.
03:13:06 <elliott> and I doubt that is reconcilable
03:13:21 <elliott> forgive my cynicism but i've forgotten, what country do you originate from?
03:13:31 <elliott> forgive my cynicism again, but I'm not surprised
03:16:37 <variable> elliott: "the power has been shifted into your own hands. Fraud will always exist. It's up to you to only send bitcoins to trusted entities" --> another issue. In the real world people routinely have to deal with untrusted entities
03:16:56 <elliott> generate new address, send bitcoin to whoever, never use it again
03:17:30 <variable> "Terrorists fly aircrafts into buildings, but the governments have not yet abolished consumer air travel. " --> false in the US :-)
03:17:57 <elliott> it's now air travel only for the molested
03:18:11 <elliott> not molested? No problem! They take care of that for you before you get on the plane.
03:18:43 <elliott> I should move somewhere that isn't the UK so I can have my European superiority generator working honestly
03:19:30 <Sgeo> http://example.eu
03:20:02 <elliott> It's a nice place. What with our universal healthcare and all OH BURN
03:20:52 <elliott> variable: Problem with .eu is, colder it is, nicer it is :P
03:21:07 <elliott> Until you get to Finland, where the coldness actually causes every personality to freeze and become stone cold.
03:21:23 <elliott> And after a step into Russia, it gets so cold that everyone becomes insane.
03:22:12 * Sgeo puts elliott in Antarctica
03:22:15 <elliott> this miner is a horrible reminder of how pitiful my gpu is :(
03:23:19 <variable> .an Dissolved as of October 10, 2010 :-(
03:25:21 <elliott> variable: also: With no population, there is no indigenous economic activity. The islands' only natural resource is fish; the Australian government allows limited fishing in the surrounding waters.[19] Despite the lack of population, the islands have been assigned the country code HM in ISO 3166-1 (ISO 3166-2:HM) and therefore the Internet top-level domain .hm. The timezone of the islands is UTC+5.[20]
03:26:14 <variable> although .aq competes with .hm
03:26:19 <Sgeo> Browser not working, is that link to an actual site?
03:26:36 <variable> elliott: how I register a .hm domain ?
03:27:55 <elliott> variable: I once wanted to write a script to query all single letter domains dot two-letter ccTLD names, and then filter out the registered ones, the ones that show as "invalid", and then manually filter out the ones with a minimum length polic
03:28:13 <elliott> I firmly believe it is possible to register a three-letter-plus-dot domain name today, just very difficult to find one
03:28:23 <elliott> I know .st make a big deal about charging a lot for shorter ones
03:28:33 <elliott> probably you can get a single-letter one for $9999999999/yr
03:28:49 <elliott> variable: after bit.ly had to censor things because of sharia law, I've soured to the idea of domain hacks.
03:29:04 <Sgeo> elliott, bit.ly censored stuff?
03:29:15 <variable> Sgeo: there was talk of it - duno if they actually did
03:29:54 <variable> I would get o.hm - but I don't want to spend $35
03:30:14 <elliott> deceptionisland.aq ;; COOLEST NAME FOR AN ISLAND ON COOLEST TLD
03:30:21 <elliott> (unfortunately requires www. for website, LESSENING THE AWESOME)
03:30:46 <elliott> because they set up their dns badly, presumably
03:31:11 <variable> I just want a cool domain name I could use for an IRC cloak :-p
03:31:19 <Sgeo> Is there a hcl.aq ?
03:31:37 <variable> .aq is restricted to governments and people with a physical presence
03:33:15 <variable> Educational and scientific institutions operating in the region served by the HM domain are entitled to free registration of an appropriately selected domain name.
03:33:31 <Sgeo> Christian URL shorteners. What's next, Christian Linux distros?
03:33:40 * variable sets up an educational Institute
03:33:58 <variable> Sgeo: not next, before: Ichthux
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03:34:12 <Sgeo> variable, I had Ubuntu Christian Edition in mind, actually
03:34:40 <elliott> hmm, technically my code will hang for a bit if the server sends a partial line then waits for ages to complete
03:34:44 <variable> Sgeo: like your last quit message?
03:35:02 <elliott> variable: good luck living on an uninhabited island :D
03:35:18 <variable> elliott: "a virtual online system to learn about the .hm region"
03:35:50 <variable> elliott: and when you go their the page is empty
03:35:59 <variable> as it is a listing of the inhabitants
03:36:06 <elliott> "this white page adequately represents the appearance of these islands"
03:36:37 <elliott> "if it is not white on your computer, please adjust your browser settings for optimum results."
03:36:40 * Sgeo considers grabbing an Ubuntu SE wallpaper
03:36:46 <variable> elliott: reminds me of purple.com
03:37:05 <elliott> I found a subdomain where the guy had actual stuff on, but THE MYSTERY REMAINS
03:37:26 <elliott> he said he actually uses purple in the faq
03:37:31 <elliott> so i went on a mission to find it :P
03:37:34 <variable> (which subdomain did you find ?)
03:37:56 <elliott> it just had some photos or something
03:38:02 <elliott> on some mountain or another :P
03:38:13 <variable> my fav thing is his donation page
03:38:13 <elliott> i find the purple itself to be an inadequate purple on my display, however
03:38:44 <Sgeo> http://www.purple.com/availability.html
03:38:52 <Sgeo> It's possible to lease purple.com
03:38:54 <variable> elliott: support personnel often use purple.com because its easy to say over the phone
03:39:10 <elliott> variable: don't you mean: competent support personnel
03:39:28 <elliott> always qualify tiny subsets :-P
03:39:37 <variable> elliott: on IRC I'm not very precise
03:39:56 <elliott> if this channel doesn't wear you out how will we ever weed the oldbies out
03:40:09 <elliott> oerjan has only lasted with his age with extended use of sarcasm
03:40:10 <variable> elliott: this channel is with ##cs should be
03:40:24 <elliott> * Topic for ##cs set by Quadrescence at Tue Nov 30 19:18:07 2010
03:40:31 <variable> (unrelated - do you guys give cloaks - I want something other than unaffiliated)
03:40:32 <elliott> thank god Quadrescence stopped bothering us.
03:40:40 <elliott> variable: we're not a group afaik :P
03:40:51 <elliott> variable: we might have trouble registering as one, because we don't reaaally own the term esoteric
03:40:56 <elliott> although we worked out we have a pretty good claim
03:41:03 <variable> elliott: doesn't matter - you have the esolong wiki
03:41:19 <elliott> but still, were this channel created today it would be ##esoteric. thank god it wasn't, because ## is ugly.
03:41:20 <variable> elliott: same idea. I could do for you guys if you want
03:41:27 <elliott> don't ops have to register it?
03:41:42 <elliott> -ChanServ- Information on ##cs:
03:41:42 <elliott> -ChanServ- Founder : dixon
03:41:52 <elliott> dixon is Quadrescence's other moronic troll friend.
03:41:58 <elliott> I'm hardly surprised ##cs is a shithole
03:42:02 <variable> elliott: ops *don't* have to register
03:42:10 <elliott> but but but you could be posing as us
03:42:12 <variable> elliott: as long as you have control of the website
03:42:20 <variable> they give you a token to put on
03:42:20 <elliott> we don't have control of "the esoteric website" though :D
03:42:35 <elliott> -ChanServ- Registered : Jan 03 01:30:22 2003 (8 years, 13 weeks, 0 days, 02:11:51 ago)
03:42:40 <elliott> huh, i swear we were registered in 2006 a while ago
03:42:42 <variable> elliott: if you want to go through with this I could talk to the opers
03:42:47 <variable> elliott: I know a bunch of them
03:42:58 <elliott> variable: well it's not my decision to make really
03:43:07 <elliott> i'm happy with my cloak... but a nice domain name is nicer than a nice cloak :P
03:43:18 <elliott> variable: hmm, i can think of at least seventy people who would balk at that statement
03:43:33 <elliott> yeah. always bothering us about fires and shit.
03:43:37 <elliott> i say let it burn, i'm busy ircing!
03:44:07 <zzo38> Is it ever useful in cricket, to sacrifice a wicket by handling the ball or in any other way?
03:44:09 <elliott> http://jeff.purple.com/ oh here we go.
03:44:12 <elliott> yeah google finds this trivially.
03:44:32 <elliott> and that guy's photo is freaking me out argh get back on
03:46:12 <elliott> also http://www.purple.com/index2.html, done googlestalking now :-P
03:47:43 <libc\x2Eso> <elliott> i'm happy with my cloak... but a nice domain name is nicer than a nice cloak :P // I AGREE lololol*runs*
03:48:00 <elliott> says gregor, guy who doesn't even run an identd for a nicer prefix
03:48:12 <libc\x2Eso> I couldn't figure it out *sobblecopter*
03:48:33 <elliott> you could run a fake one that only works for you
03:48:49 <elliott> echo "$line : USERID : UNIX : Gregor"
03:48:55 <elliott> put in inetd for whatever the ident port is
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03:49:47 <libc\x2Eso> elliott: Yeah, but then e.g. glogbot couldn't have "glogbot" as its ident ... it'd be nice to have an identd that any process could say "dear identd: Please lie for me in this way" :P
03:49:58 <elliott> libc\x2Eso: Yes, but it'd be better than what you have :P
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03:50:17 <elliott> libc\x2Eso: There's one identd that just responds with the user that initiated the TCP connection in question.
03:50:25 <zzo38> I have a domain name too but the reverse DNS doesn't work so instead it displays the service provider, which, I suppose, can sometimes be useful in case the country I live is important for some case (which usually isn't, though).
03:50:26 <elliott> http://skarnet.org/software/minidentd/index.html
03:50:33 <elliott> It's one of those djb-freak /package dealies though, so YMMV :)
03:50:43 <elliott> (Not that it'd be hard to move out.)
03:50:55 <elliott> (And, well, I think you do need ucspi-tcp. Maybe.)
03:51:09 <elliott> No wait, there's also the http://smarden.org/ipsvd/ clone :-P
03:52:17 <zzo38> I am deciding to use LodePNG for my program. Have any of you ever used LodePNG, or libpng or some other libraries for loading/saving pictures, in your program? Which ones?
03:53:30 <zzo38> It uses floating point only for deciding Huffman encoding, so there is nothing that would cause different pictures input/output on different computers.
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04:01:00 <libc\x2Eso> I installed nullidentd, it got the auth response, but it sent "foobar" instead of "Gregor" as I specified as an argument >_<
04:01:36 <elliott> libc\x2Eso: You don't need a piece of software for a two-line shell script X_X
04:02:13 <libc\x2Eso> I didn't know how to do an inetd line :P
04:03:18 <elliott> # <service_name> <sock_type> <proto> <flags> <user> <server_path> <args>
04:05:27 <variable> elliott: some jackass pulled the alarm
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04:06:02 <variable> anyways: are you personally interested in the group, if yes, do you think it would be a good idea to get this going?
04:06:23 <elliott> I'm not really personally interested, but I'm not opposed :P
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04:06:34 <elliott> * libc\x2Eso (~Gregor@codu.org) has joined #esoteric
04:06:59 <variable> elliott: who would be 'in charge'? those with ops?
04:06:59 <Guest15127> Oh, did I actually register libc\x2Eso? X-D
04:07:11 <elliott> Guest15127: just trolling, it worked
04:07:35 <elliott> variable: I guess fizzie and oerjan. lament is absentee.
04:08:01 <elliott> oerjan is probably too lazy to get anything out of ;D
04:08:23 <elliott> DON'T TELL LAMENT HE'LL BAN EVERYONE
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04:10:11 <libc\x2Eso> "Coyote finally caught me" // well bip, that is one unique default quit message :P
04:10:46 <elliott> All default quit messages should be as embarrassing as possible
04:10:55 <elliott> * Gregor has quit (WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOORESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS)
04:11:03 <variable> libc\x2Eso: mine are "/dev/io failed" "I found 1 in /dev/zero" and "overflow in /dev/null" for quit, part, away
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04:11:50 <zzo38> I just type the quit message every time instead of having it in a macro.
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04:15:01 <zzo38> Because I like to make it not always the same message.
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04:23:42 <zzo38> If you have a array with values 0 to 255 and you need to convert values in that array according to a calculation, is it more efficient to do the calculation every time or to store the results in a lookup table?
04:24:04 <elliott> precalculated lookup table
04:24:19 <zzo38> Yes, it is what I thought, good, OK.
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04:40:08 <oerjan> wow, wil wheaton looks a bit moldy indeed
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05:12:19 <zzo38> I am working on webifying and simplifying LodePNG. LodePNG has even been converted to D, and then maybe they can also put the port to CWEB listed there too.
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05:31:38 <elliott> <oerjan> wow, wil wheaton looks a bit moldy indeed
05:31:48 <elliott> not as much as that seducer of unwilling cats
05:36:19 <Sgeo> I looked at his page, he didn't have many mold
05:37:17 <elliott> "The supervisor for CTSS, the early 1960s predecessor system to Multics, had been written almost entirely in the 7094 assembly program, FAP."
05:37:24 <elliott> oh i can see this document is going to be a lot of fun
05:42:31 <elliott> hmm, this document makes me want to go back to the late 60s
05:44:08 <elliott> Sgeo: afaict mold is over now
05:44:14 <lament> it's not a joke elliott
05:44:26 <Sgeo> elliott, but I looked before it ended
05:44:47 * elliott backs slowly away from lament into a pile of FAP
05:46:25 <elliott> "An idiotic structure was one that contained an array that began at a different place in the machine word for every element: he actually found that the Known Segment Table had a 37-bit array declared in it, requiring the compiler to generate many instructions to advance from one element to another."
05:56:49 <oerjan> the late 60s were a good time for fapping indeed
05:59:28 <oerjan> "GHC migratiön tö Git cömplété" indeed
05:59:36 <oerjan> apparently dons didn't escape :D
06:00:41 <oerjan> Sgeo: he has about 500 mold trophies, though
06:01:02 <elliott> <oerjan> the late 60s were a good time for fapping indeed
06:01:06 <oerjan> so presumably the effect just wore off somehow
06:01:06 <elliott> you'd know. wait do you know?
06:01:12 <elliott> hmm, you're actually old enough :(
06:01:13 <Sgeo> It was possible to escape, apparently
06:01:15 <elliott> and yes, mold spores wear off
06:01:29 <Sgeo> There was a thread in /r/basement for escaping
06:01:40 <oerjan> elliott: not really old enough, i'd be in the womb
06:02:07 <elliott> oerjan: well get out of there already!
06:02:19 <oerjan> i did, just after the late 60s
06:02:51 <elliott> olsner: so you only got born in like 1970? :/
06:03:01 <elliott> olsner got born in like 2002
06:03:09 <elliott> because you know, fuck him
06:04:00 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/aDJMG.jpg ;; STAY CLASSY, SUN
06:04:11 <elliott> i think the progression from houses to cats is a very serious one.
06:04:19 <elliott> i like how they included a picture of hitler for comparison.
06:04:25 <elliott> also, i swear that house is wearing a beret
06:06:57 <elliott> i bet oerjan wears a beret
06:08:15 <elliott> that's the silence of a beret-wearer.
06:09:55 * oerjan pats olsner on the head
06:10:04 <elliott> oerjan: he's stupid isn't he :D
06:10:28 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/basement/comments/ggq6i/if_som3on3_miss3s_mold_and_r3ads_our_history/ all this is doing is reminding me i still need to finish binging homestuck...
06:11:04 <oerjan> i cannot recall wearing a beret, ever. but then there is a lot i cannot recall.
06:12:46 <elliott> when will you stop coming here oerjan
06:13:53 <oerjan> i don't plan that far ahead.
06:14:06 <elliott> WILL YOU STILL BE HERE WHEN YOU'RE 82
06:14:57 <elliott> hey i just made oerjan feel good about his age :DDDDD
06:15:05 <oerjan> well let's at least hope the replacement is not a step backward
06:15:27 <elliott> hm is there a pun in there
06:15:52 <elliott> oerjan: well maybe it'll be post-singularity.
06:16:04 <elliott> and we'll just sort of hook up our minds to each other in a big circle. like /r/circlejerk, but /r/circle...MIND
06:16:28 <oerjan> yes. and we have to ban certain people lest it become an _actual_ circlejerk
06:18:19 <elliott> and for his 512th birthday, we'll buy oerjan a digital scan of a vintage 2010 computer running the lost compiler of GHC
06:18:45 <oerjan> my mind is now doing a few leaps to notice that "kline" is norwegian for making out
06:18:52 <elliott> can you believe you actually had to type out every single letter you wanted to say to the computer then like a baby, haha
06:19:26 <elliott> oerjan: i'm trying to think of a suitably joking reply
06:20:52 <oerjan> i suppose that might be hard
06:21:50 <oerjan> the music of the night indeed
06:22:51 <elliott> "How many non-moldy Redditors think we should get trophies for our profiles that say "I Survived the Plague"?"
06:23:41 <elliott> hey oerjan, if you don't upvote my comment in http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/ggu2r/ghc_migrati%C3%B6n_t%C3%B6_git_c%C3%B6mpl%C3%A9t%C3%A9/, the smilies will win
06:23:45 <elliott> oh wait you have no account
06:23:47 <oerjan> i haven't seen anyone who was _killed_ by the plague yet...
06:24:06 <elliott> oerjan: indeed not. but let's just say that I_RAPE_CATS will never rape again.
06:24:35 <oerjan> what a sad thing, to be bereft of your life mission
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06:31:58 <oerjan> and apparently emacs's april fools joke was that it wasn't a joke?
06:33:15 <elliott> but lexical scoping is still off for files by default
06:33:19 <elliott> so it's not _really_ lexically scoped yet
06:33:35 <elliott> YOU WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND THE SUBTLETIES, VIM USER
06:40:21 <elliott> oerjan: i was wondering why it sounded so uncharacteristic
06:40:30 <elliott> clearly it's message memory, like homeopathy
06:41:15 <oerjan> the fact i usually use O KAY might _possibly_ have something to do with it...
06:42:46 <elliott> yeah, O KAY is getting kinda obnoxious at this point :D
06:43:57 <oerjan> that's because it's _meant_ to be, silly
06:46:06 <elliott> oerjan: yes but no really stop it, child.
06:46:22 * elliott aimed that right at oerjan's offence lobe
06:48:37 <oerjan> my offence lobe exploded from overloading years ago
06:48:55 <elliott> did someone say your FACE looked like a puddle?
06:49:01 <oerjan> no wait, that was my conscience lobe
06:49:14 <elliott> conscientious objectificator
06:49:29 * oerjan captures elliott and applies tickle torture
07:15:39 <oerjan> and a good day to you, sir
07:15:48 <elliott> you're going to sleep soon
07:16:22 <oerjan> you might want to check your data
07:16:44 * elliott makes scribbles on teletyped data
07:16:57 * elliott scrumples up paper, throws in bin
07:19:13 <oerjan> late afternoon, perhaps
07:19:38 <elliott> oerjan: YOUR MEASUREMENTS ARE HAYWIRE
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11:59:04 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, webcomics in French are the most ridiculous thing.
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12:24:24 <Sgeo> Webomics are tools of Satan!
12:24:53 <Sgeo> Especially 1/0! The author compares himself to God!
12:30:30 <Sgeo> I think he has Alzheimers'. Could injure himself, so much power but not a functioning mind. Probably why he stopped doing miracles.
12:30:40 <Sgeo> So I need to find him before he hurts himself and the world
12:34:10 <Sgeo> Dear Chrome: It should not take forever to load a file that's on my hard drive
12:36:01 <Sgeo> On hold for the moment
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13:10:20 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> ...Vorpal was offline? <-- it's called power outage :P
13:10:27 <Phantom_Hoover> He's like some horrifying vision, always at the edge of your perception.
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13:40:38 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: because assholes like you couldnt resist using a time machine to go to the future and take all the cool stuff
14:12:54 <Thunfish> anyone here who wants to try out my implementation of a portable brainfuck compiler in C?
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15:20:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Thunfish, sure, but there's not really much room for innovation there.
15:21:50 <Thunfish> I know, but it's using other technics that I haven't seen in other compilers/interpreters, yet.
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15:23:03 <Thunfish> http://thundersf.bplaced.net/bfjit/bfjit.zip
15:23:33 <Thunfish> I lately added an entry to brainfuck discussion page too.
15:24:38 <Thunfish> I tried my best to write an english ReadMe.
15:28:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it just me or does your parser do some optimisation as well?
15:29:49 <Phantom_Hoover> (You might want to look at Esotope, BtW; it's the current best optimising BF compiler.)
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15:36:15 <fizzie> There are also at least a couple LLVM-driven brainfucks that do a mostly trivial translation themselves, but of course inherit all the LLVM optimization machinery. (Of course from an iplementation viewpoint that's pretty boring.)
15:37:44 <fizzie> (In other news, a brief hello from Turku, the okocity.)
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15:46:04 <Thunfish> Wow! Esotope generates very well optimized source code. The only disadvantage, I can find is that it needs an external C compiler. My program was meant to be fast and to be independent of external programs, but I haven't heard about Esotope, yet.
15:48:46 <Phantom_Hoover> The power of Esotope is in its macroöptimisations, so you could probably just work them into a self-contained compiler.
15:52:27 <Thunfish> ok, thank you. I will try to implement some more optimisation mechanisms into my compiler.
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16:44:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I love it when WP defines conventions, then lists all possible ways to define something.
16:45:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Especially when there are two ways to do something and both are widespread.
16:53:48 <Vorpal> hm there is ipv6.google.com and encrypted.google.com, but there seem to be no encrypted ipv6 version, heh
16:54:24 <Vorpal> also why does ipv6.google.com say "go to google denmark"... ?
16:56:48 <libc\x2Eso> Probably doesn't have as good of GeoIP for IPv6 as for IPv4.
16:57:16 <Vorpal> anyone know how to switch the search box in firefox over to use https for google
16:57:18 <libc\x2Eso> Vorpal: Or it just knows that in your heart of hearts you desperately want to be Danish.
16:57:31 <libc\x2Eso> Phantom_Hoover: I shall not discuss it in this channel :P
16:57:51 <Vorpal> I'm looking for where to change it... haven't found it yet
16:57:56 <Vorpal> it isn't about:config at least
16:59:37 <libc\x2Eso> Since . is an invalid character for nicks on Freenode :P
17:00:48 <Vorpal> libc\x2Eso, and on IRC in general afaik?
17:01:00 <libc\x2Eso> Idonno what the RFC has to say about it *shrugs*
17:01:26 <libc\x2Eso> The protocol really has no reason to ban any characters aside from ": \r\n"
17:04:09 <Vorpal> google isn't there however
17:04:37 <Vorpal> aha, it is in /usr/lib, not in my profile
17:04:51 <libc\x2Eso> I was wondering wtf you were blathering about :P
17:04:56 <Vorpal> libc\x2Eso, I was talking about the google issue in another channel.
17:06:15 <Phantom_Hoover> libc\x2Eso, so wait, if you're not discussing libc.so here, I assume you're attempting to fundraise elsewhere on Freenode?
17:06:46 <libc\x2Eso> (Well, a little bit, but with no success :P )
17:08:47 <libc\x2Eso> But the guy I was sure would get it bowed out, so now it's just me, a few who are clearly out already, and a bunch who haven't bid (and so are wildcards)
17:09:06 <libc\x2Eso> I rate my odds as quite low simply because I'm very near to my limit, but as it stands I'm in the lead.
17:09:22 <libc\x2Eso> And oh yeah, I'm not talking about that in here X-P
17:12:31 <Sgeo> Anyone want to fire nukes at the tunes.org server?
17:13:08 <Sgeo> glogbot's in someone in here's control, isn't it? No need to fire nukes there
17:13:35 <libc\x2Eso> My point is why even bother with tunes.org
17:14:04 <Sgeo> Because it's the only log that's outside of our control?
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17:43:18 <Sgeo> <libc\x2Eso> ERASE LAST SIX LINES
17:43:25 <Phantom_Hoover> (And yes, I actually do think that being outside our control is A Good Thing, given Herobrine.)
17:43:45 <Sgeo> What's bad about Herobrine?
17:44:19 <libc\x2Eso> Phantom_Hoover: elliott and I are collaborating on the Future of Logbots.
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17:55:35 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Note nonexistence of logs on internet. <-- personally I think this can be attributed to elliott rather than being run by someone in the channel /in general/.
17:57:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, come on, egobot is mostly stable. Apart from server sluggishness and hickups. So is fungot
17:57:14 <fungot> Vorpal: i don't know what to do
17:57:28 <Vorpal> they don't stop running after a few weeks
17:57:43 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot is run by fizzie who is, like, incapable of anger.
17:57:44 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: common lisp, scheme, oz, erlang, &c.) to infer types
17:57:47 <Vorpal> they sometimes fails yes. But they are always restarted.
17:57:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and Gregor's bots?
17:58:19 <Phantom_Hoover> PERHAPS THE DOWNTIME IS NOT SO RANDOM AS WE HAVE BEEN LED TO THINK
17:58:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, uh, I doubt that.
17:58:50 <libc\x2Eso> My bots have much improved since I made the odd discovery that if you don't make any output but pongs for a prolonged period, Freenode will disconnect you.
18:02:38 <Vorpal> libc\x2Eso, freenode does what?
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18:19:01 <elliott> 13:36:34: <Phantom_Hoover> ...ELISP is now lexically scoped.
18:19:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: not by default alas
18:28:25 <Vorpal> elliott, fizzie: does mcmap work with 1.4?
18:33:20 <iconmaster> Is there a way to make some code execute when a certain file's contents have been changed?
18:34:01 <elliott> Try Linux, then you can use inotify/FAM :P
18:35:25 <iconmaster> I renember hearing there was a way to do this in Powershell, but i forgot what it said...
18:35:58 <elliott> iconmaster: You can always just do a
18:36:16 <elliott> for(;;) {sleep(1); if(readfile() != oldfilecontents) dosomething();}
18:36:24 <elliott> But that'll wake up your CPU all the time.
18:36:49 <iconmaster> That will be good enough... What would that script do if the file was suddenly deleted?
18:37:05 <elliott> Uh. readfile would fail. It's up to you to implement the actual guts :P
18:37:15 <elliott> I also forgot to save the result of readfile to oldfilecontents there.
18:38:54 <iconmaster> SO basically for(;;) {sleep(1); $oldfile = (gc file); if((gc file) -ne $oldfile) {stuff} }
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18:39:26 <elliott> That will almost never execute stuff.
18:39:57 <quintopia> is there a userscript of some sort that makes it impossible for scripts that automatically highlight blocks of text on a webpage to function, or do I have to write it myself?
18:39:59 <iconmaster> It works... but I need to fill in now.
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19:09:37 <elliott> Hey ais523, /msg #esoteric-minecraft with something.
19:10:18 <elliott> ais523: The novelty will never get old!
19:10:30 <Vorpal> ais523, why don't you like minecraft
19:10:49 <Vorpal> and does that mean you are neutral towards it, or dislike it?
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19:11:01 <ais523> Vorpal: vague dislike, I'd say
19:11:32 <ais523> it's trying to glue together two things that might be interesting on their own, to make the result less interesting
19:11:36 <elliott> minecrakrt jsux because ls black black ops is teh bestset st game evar
19:11:39 <Vorpal> ais523, what two things?
19:11:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you can easily switch the skin
19:12:00 <ais523> a sort of adventure game, and a sandboxy programming game
19:12:11 <ais523> I mean, you wouldn't try to combine Tomb Raider and Rubicon
19:12:23 <elliott> MC doesn't involve any programming unless you mean redstone
19:12:26 <ais523> (although if you did, you might end up with something quite popular)
19:12:34 <ais523> elliott: well, architecture
19:12:36 <Vorpal> ais523, that sounds... wow
19:12:40 <ais523> which may or may not be programmatically interesting
19:12:50 <Vorpal> elliott, 8 bit computer. Come on
19:13:18 <elliott> Vorpal: that's electrical engineering
19:13:33 <ais523> also, Minecraft's one of those things that the majority of communities have their own server/area for playing, much like Mafia
19:13:50 <elliott> also, Tomb Raider + Rubicon is a game I would play
19:14:17 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. Redstone Engineering
19:14:24 <lament> is minecraft multiplayer?
19:14:26 <Vorpal> redstone doesn't really work at all like transistors
19:14:57 <Vorpal> <ais523> also, Minecraft's one of those things that the majority of communities have their own server/area for playing, much like Mafia <-- yes. There is no official One True Server.
19:14:59 <elliott> Vorpal: no, it's always multiplayer
19:15:02 <Vorpal> ais523, is that an issue?
19:15:20 <ais523> Vorpal: it's not an issue, but I did find it interesting
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21:25:47 <Sgeo> Lexi's in Hotel California
21:26:03 <Sgeo> Sgeo, Butcherer of Jokes
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21:33:18 <ais523> ch2: hmm, are you a spambot?
21:33:24 <ais523> or just have an unusually small lexicon?
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21:33:56 <elliott> I think you hurt its feelings.
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21:35:18 <elliott> ais523: why do you find this funny!
21:35:58 -!- ch2 has joined.
21:35:58 <ch2> ais523: i hate you :(
21:36:04 -!- Zuu_ has changed nick to Zuu.
21:37:13 <elliott> ais523: I think you've really hurt its feelings.
21:37:37 <elliott> ch2: do you want to be friends
21:37:52 <libc\x2Eso> ch2: elliott's a douchebag, don't listen to him
21:38:22 <ais523> heh, I just compared the IPs
21:38:33 <ais523> I had an idea that ch2 = elliott, and it's using the same IP that elliott was yesterday
21:38:51 <ais523> indeed, but it's still quite a coincidence
21:38:57 <elliott> yes. very. clearly it is fate
21:39:16 <elliott> FUCKINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
21:39:18 <elliott> TSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
21:40:16 <libc\x2Eso> The two t's in elliott's name are having wild, hot, passionate sex even as we speak.
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21:42:04 <ch2> ais523: i hate you :(
21:42:23 <ais523> elliot________t: hmm, is ch2 a hatredbot?
21:42:33 <ais523> at least, it was an S Q L bot first, but is a hatredbot now?
21:44:11 <elliot________t> -rw-r--r-- 1 elliott elliott 110K 2011-04-02 22:42 logs.sqlite3
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21:46:06 <ais523> ah, it's a logbot that isn't Herobrine?
21:46:26 <elliot________t> ch2: how do you respond to this accusation that you're not Herobrine?
21:47:33 <ais523> *isn't called Herobrine
21:48:30 <ais523> elliot________t: so did I, I'm not convinced it's called Herobrine based on its realname data
21:50:39 <ais523> I thought .ch meant Switzerland
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22:04:40 -!- elliot________t has changed nick to elliott.
22:04:51 <elliott> ais523: Anyway, ch2 and glogbot are actually in a completely illict relationship*
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22:05:44 <elliott> I swear to god, pipe() is the most annoying possible interface.
22:06:29 <ais523> elliott: the way it takes an array as arg, /and/ returns the arguments the other way round from what you'd expect, in the array?
22:06:38 <ais523> admittedly, it's quite a clever interface for what it's trying to do
22:06:47 <elliott> ais523: Well, yes, but also the fact that I just want to spawn a process and hook into its input and output.
22:07:03 <elliott> And having to call pipe twice, keep track of the indices, and hook it all up with dup, is super annoying.
22:07:07 <elliott> Also I'm not sure how POSIX-portable that is.
22:07:25 <elliott> pipe() too, but not pipe2().
22:07:33 <elliott> ("pipe too but not pipe too" X-D)
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22:19:10 <elliott> I wonder if I could use a hash tree as a storage method.
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22:42:13 * Sgeo unfairly blames calamari for PSOX
22:44:41 <calamari> so I came across an interesting mental challenge (well, interesting to me anyways). in a normal round-robin tournament, players are matched in pairs. but let's say the game has 3 sides (for example, chinese checkers, you could play a triangle of 3 of the 6 tips). if every player must play against each other player exactly once, what's the algorithm to optimize for the least number of matches?
22:45:55 <calamari> there are definitely substandard combos.. for example if I have 6 players and I do 1-2-3 then 4-5-6, then I must have 9 additional matches with just 2 players
22:46:34 <myndzi> that depends on your goal
22:46:45 <myndzi> you could see the goal of a round robin tournament to be to test every permutation of players
22:46:50 <myndzi> in which case your premise is flawed
22:47:13 <calamari> i stated every player must play each other player exactly once
22:47:40 <myndzi> i didn't mean you specifically so much as you generally; i wouldn't expect to see a round robin tournament such as you've laid out
22:50:28 <calamari> but yeah as I stated was correct
22:50:48 <calamari> best I could find for 6 players was 7 matches, 3 with an empty seat
22:51:11 * calamari looks up the handshaking problem
22:52:54 <ais523> is there any number of players, other than 3, for which it's doable with no matches with empty seats?
22:53:09 <myndzi> http://www.devenezia.com/round-robin/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1224605375
22:53:22 <myndzi> 4 rounds, no empty seats
22:54:19 <ais523> I suppose multiples of 9, it's easy
22:54:57 <myndzi> appears to be some software called hsmaster which can generate round robins for 3 player games(?)
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23:09:45 <myndzi> you can google it as easily as i?
23:09:56 <myndzi> i only came across a video of someone showing how to use it, didn't bother to actually look up the app
23:10:02 <myndzi> it looked old and dated and maybe not like it would run on xp
23:10:13 <myndzi> i also may have misunderstood
23:11:41 <oerjan> <fizzie> (In other news, a brief hello from Turku, the okocity.)
23:13:27 <oerjan> "The unusual dialect in this city is due to rampant sound change, which has worn all vowels and diphthongs down to o, and all consonants and consonant combinations down to k. how the people here manage to understand each other is a mystery to linguists. especially in writing."
23:14:25 <ais523> oerjan: if only you'd got it right first time, it would have been great
23:16:11 <oerjan> koko (new official name of Turku)
23:21:43 <oerjan> <libc\x2Eso> ERASE LAST SIX LINES
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23:41:01 <oerjan> <elliott> ("pipe too but not pipe too" X-D)
23:42:47 <libc\x2Eso> Is it nobler to socket blah blah blah bad pun blah blah
23:43:28 <oerjan> well, _you_ can socket.
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23:51:50 <libc\x2Eso> oerjan: I'll socket your plug any day, oerjan baby ;-*
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00:11:21 <zzo38> What I think that 4-letter TLDs should be used for, is for special use, such as making .example into .xmpl and having the same purpose as .example has.
00:17:13 <elliott> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
00:18:18 <zzo38> ????????????????????????????????????
00:20:09 <olsner> I'm saying you will never build @ or get someone to do it for you :)
00:21:00 <zzo38> Is anyone in here who knows cricket rules and has experience?
00:21:51 <elliott> olsner: i can't parse the precedence of that sentence
00:21:57 <Slereah> What if I told you the baseball rules in a british accent?
00:22:22 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> Is anyone in here who knows cricket rules and has experience? <Slereah> What if I told you the baseball rules in a british accent?
00:22:24 <zzo38> Slereah: No, baseball is a different game.
00:22:25 <HackEgo> 345) <zzo38> Is anyone in here who knows cricket rules and has experience? <Slereah> What if I told you the baseball rules in a british accent?
00:23:37 <zzo38> It is someone said before that draws are common and I have some ideas that can make it less common without eliminating draws or changing much else, but someone with experience should answer me please.
00:24:12 <zzo38> What is this? http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:IRC&curid=2413&diff=21685&oldid=10846
00:24:27 <zzo38> Also this? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:M-code
00:26:25 <oerjan> zzo38: bot spam, almost certainly
00:26:33 <zzo38> Slereah: Have you ever told anyone baseball rules in a British accent?
00:27:10 <ais523> but that's because I'm British
00:27:14 <ais523> so it's my natural accent
00:27:22 <ais523> also, I know most of the rules of cricket
00:27:43 <ais523> anyway, the reason draws are common are due to people running out of time for a match, due to people not getting out quickly enough and not declaring
00:27:51 <ais523> (either by mistake, or because it would make them lose)
00:28:01 <ais523> and there are alternative rules that avoid draws already for one-day matches
00:28:04 <ais523> but they aren't used in full matches
00:28:21 <elliott> oerjan: what kind of bot spams with hello world?
00:28:29 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I know that. However, I have some ideas to make draws a bit less common while still possible, such as making some changes to the world during the last half hour of play.
00:28:37 <olsner> elliott: what was the ambiguouous part?
00:28:55 <olsner> I meant that you'll never (build @) or (get someone to do it(= build @) for you)
00:29:06 <elliott> olsner: (never {build @ or get someone to do it for you}) vs. (or {never build @} {get someone to do it for you})
00:29:09 <oerjan> elliott: i don't know but "catch sufficiently hello world" gives google hits
00:29:17 <ais523> zzo38: that might be unfair, as as one side's bowling and one side's batting then, the rules change would affect the two sides differently
00:29:31 -!- elliott has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | Catch sufficiently hello world. | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html (+Qdeql +Sceql +SMETANA) | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
00:30:46 <libc\x2Eso> try { ... } catch (ex) { if (ex.sufficientlyHelloWorld()) { console.log("Hello, world!"); } }
00:33:49 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I can see that, but the idea I have was that there would be ways to make it end faster but that this might benefit both sides, and that it would then become a bit more difficult to continue until time up. Such as, during the last half hour of play (on the last day), any maiden automatically takes a wicket and the ball into designated areas earns double runs. Perhaps also these rules can be adjusted based on time wasting calculations
00:34:13 <ais523> double runs is a much more minor bonus than maidens taking wickets automatically
00:34:22 <ais523> maidens are much more common than wickets
00:34:45 <ais523> perhaps a straight *3 on runs might balance it, but it still probably wouldn't be completely balanced
00:36:28 <oerjan> cricket is like this game, if you didn't know it was old, you'd think it was a parody of something else
00:36:38 <zzo38> Yes that might fix it a bit.
00:37:19 <oerjan> so well-made it is useless to try and parody it further. although i'm sure people must have tried.
00:37:27 <elliott> Vorpal: how much ram does an ubuntu-for-genera vm require?
00:37:43 <zzo38> oerjan: Is that what it looks like to you? Maybe it might. How much of the rules do you know, oerjan?
00:38:11 <oerjan> right now i'm going just by your long line above.
00:39:44 <elliott> ais523: btw, is blognomic any fun?
00:39:48 <ais523> oerjan: you know how there are plenty of stereotypes about English gentlemen, who spend all day sipping tea and taking things slowly in immaculate and beautiful gardens?
00:40:03 <ais523> cricket's like what you get if you try to apply all those to baseball simultaneously
00:40:11 <ais523> elliott: it varies a lot; this dynasty may be a good one, but it's too early to tell
00:40:17 <ais523> it's been boring for months, but I rejoined recently
00:41:10 <ais523> five-day cricket is probably the slowest-paced sport in existence
00:41:26 <elliott> ais523: Uh, Brockian Ultra-Cricket?
00:41:38 <ais523> elliott: that's probably pretty fast-paced
00:42:00 <elliott> ais523: I dunno, beating people might be really slow in the seventh dimension
00:43:08 <oerjan> Ul-Tra Cricket. named by its mad scientist inventor Siad Ul-Tra.
00:43:47 <ais523> oerjan: it's not an understatement, anyway, to say that cricket games are intended to take five days, but often are drawn due to not being nearly finished by then
00:44:20 <elliott> i propose a new form of cricket
00:44:27 <elliott> teh game lasts until someone wins. no exceptions
00:44:43 <ais523> elliott: it was originally unlimited; the five-day limit was added due to people getting bored after a few weeks
00:45:09 <lament> how can anyone get bored of cricket
00:45:22 <lament> well, short of watching it i guess
00:45:22 <oerjan> elliott: see? you cannot actually parody cricket.
00:45:54 <elliott> (that's the motto of britain)
00:46:04 <zzo38> Long-form cricket is certainly slow, although it allows many possibilities to be played. It would certainly be very boring to people who prefer the short-forms or who do not understand cricket very well.
00:46:10 <elliott> ("british nos, ita durpy")
00:46:16 <ais523> lament: for bonus points, many channels just show "extended highlights" of cricket, which is all the bits that they thought were interesting
00:46:22 <ais523> and they typically last around twenty minutes
00:46:29 <ais523> as a summary of the whole five-day matches
00:47:15 <ais523> elliott: hey, why are /you/ laughing? aren't you British?
00:47:21 <zzo38> elliott: If the game lasts until someone wins, does that mean that there is no draws, and in case of tie you do the fifth and sixth innings?
00:47:23 <ais523> aren't you forced to play cricket in school?
00:47:36 <ais523> zzo38: ties are statistically incredibly unlikely
00:47:47 <elliott> <ais523> elliott: hey, why are /you/ laughing? aren't you British?
00:47:49 <ais523> after five days, and hundreds of runs, it would be quite a fluke for both sides to have exactly the same score
00:47:53 <elliott> <ais523> aren't you forced to play cricket in school?
00:48:06 <ais523> at least it's pretty easy, you don't do anything 95% of the time
00:48:11 <ais523> and at least if you're me, mess up the other 5%
00:48:19 <elliott> the number of innings can in fact exceed nine thousand
00:48:32 <ais523> I was so bad at cricket that in the end they decided to make me be the scorekeeper rather than play on either team, at school
00:49:02 <oerjan> crickethulhu. the game where the players try to slow it down as much as possible, for obvious reasons.
00:49:06 <zzo38> ais523: I know ties are unlikely.
00:49:32 <ais523> oerjan: bowlers have been fined for stalling, on occasion
00:49:39 <ais523> real-life money, that is, not anything in-game
00:49:59 <oerjan> ais523: i am sure the penalties in crickethulhu would rather more severe.
00:54:54 <oerjan> _occasionally_ some players on the winning team might survive, i guess.
00:55:25 <zzo38> oerjan: If you try to slow it down as much as possible, there won't be a winning team, it will end in a draw.
00:55:26 <lament> survive till the victory ceremony, anyhow
00:55:37 <zzo38> The penalties would be prohibiting slow-motion VCRs. And that you have to bet your fingers and ears if you run out of money.
00:56:13 <oerjan> crickethulhu draws are in the sense of "hung, drawn and quartered".
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01:06:58 <zzo38> Write down the rules. [1] If the batsman catches the ball (out handling the ball), you have to eat the ball. [2] If you hit a duck with anything, you lose instantly. [3] You do not stop due to the weather. If it is snow or lightning storm, you still have to continue playing in lightning storm. [4] No protective equipment is permitted. [5] Slow-motion VCRs are permitted until there is a stalling penalty, at which point they are prohibited for th
01:07:02 <elliott> oerjan: but what about the slow-motion VCRs?
01:07:50 <zzo38> e rest of the match. [6] In case of draw, is hung, drawn and quartered. [7] In case of tie, the umpire is required to tie you up. [8] U mUST USING, propper, spellling/gram-er @all times!!!!!!!!!!!
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01:09:15 <zzo38> [9] You have to use heavier balls at the victory ceremony.
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01:10:04 <oerjan> zzo38: if that's supposed to be the crickethulhu rules then i don't think you have got the spirit of it at all
01:10:20 <ais523> I think zzo38's just trying to make the game a little less boring
01:10:25 <zzo38> oerjan: Well, it is not finish yet. You have to write the rest, too.
01:10:29 <ais523> pun cricket, or something
01:10:38 <oerjan> hint: cthulhu doesn't mess around which such chicken "penalties"
01:10:44 <ais523> zzo38: but in the case of crickethulu, writing the rest wouldn't make sense
01:10:48 <ais523> as even reading it would make you go insane
01:10:59 <ais523> hmm, unless writing one of those things makes you become sane?
01:11:03 <zzo38> ais523: But some people in esolangs is already a bit insane in some ways, so you can write it.
01:11:07 <ais523> there would be a nice sort of symmetry to that
01:11:14 <oerjan> ais523: i wouldn't bet on that...
01:11:20 <ais523> oerjan: neither would I
01:11:29 <zzo38> (I do mean you. Not only me. Also you.)
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01:16:57 <elliott> ais523: Do you know how to boot Ubuntu 7.10 or similar versions in expert install mode?
01:17:33 <elliott> that's okay, i just figured it out X-D
01:17:52 <elliott> "Coming soon: Better ads in Google Mail."
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01:23:04 <elliott> @@@@@@http://sprunge.us/ZGMd@@@@@@@@
01:23:34 <elliott> FSVO obfuscate@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
01:24:39 <elliott> not safe for vixen oligarchies
01:25:02 <libc\x2Eso> It's obfuscated enough to confuse XChat >_>
01:25:26 <ais523> even rot13 would do taht
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01:25:47 <libc\x2Eso> Uhhh, but that's substantially less obfuscation than rot13.
01:26:12 <libc\x2Eso> @@@@@Hahahaha, you'll never unobfuscate this!@@@@@
01:26:29 <elliott> I think I did it! Is the answer: "Unununun, lbh'yy arire haboshfpngr guvf!"?
01:26:53 <olsner> Haboshfpngr would be a nice name for an esolang
01:27:21 <elliott> "fpng" has to be one of the heartiest sounds
01:27:29 <elliott> the p kind of nuclear-bombs the phonetics
01:27:50 <olsner> yeah, shfpngr is a consonant cluster to kill for
01:28:16 <elliott> i like how it's actually pronounceable without any vowels sneaking in
01:28:21 <ais523> and it has enough semivowels in that it's actually pronouncable
01:30:46 <elliott> just because i'm using a US english system
01:30:49 <elliott> doesn't mean my timezone is american
01:32:06 <elliott> it's impossible to have the two, it seems
01:32:39 <elliott> meh, i'll fix the timezone post-installation
01:33:35 <elliott> it feels so quaint to disable shadow passwords
01:34:45 <elliott> Re: that obfuscation, btw, if it made you gave up, I saved you some wasted time :P
01:39:41 <zzo38> Is the \linepenalty parameter of TeX misnamed?
01:41:26 <ais523> it was meant to be named bzspoiajsd, but that name's apparently illegal in Norway
01:42:30 <zzo38> Then why did Knuth call it \linepenalty? It is not a penalty value.
01:43:23 <elliott> ais523: that's totally not something ais would say
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01:43:42 <ais523> elliott: I think I was trying to do an impression of you, but not a very good one
01:43:53 <elliott> that was closer to a bad oerjan
01:43:58 <elliott> except he'd have picked another country :D]
01:44:16 <ais523> although Norway has rules on name legality, which is why I picked it
01:44:19 <elliott> otoh the random text reminds me of... olsner? cpressey?
01:44:29 <elliott> ais523: doesn't sweden too, c.f. albin
01:44:39 <ais523> ah, perhaps that's what I was thinking of
01:44:47 <elliott> they should rename that kid to "pronounced [ˈalbɪn]"
01:44:51 <ais523> and the text wasn't random, I tried mashing my keyboard several times
01:44:58 <ais523> until I got a sequence of letters I liked
01:45:44 <elliott> re that law: The law was enacted in 1982, primarily in order to prevent non-noble families from giving their children the names of noble families..
01:46:20 <elliott> wow, Lynyrd Skynyrd have had so many lineup changes that the past members section on WP ensd with "also see: List of Lynyrd Skynyrd band members"
01:46:26 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Lynyrd_Skynyrd_band_members
01:47:19 <elliott> [[The title of the album (and its title track) is written by Mark Stephen Jones, Travis Meadows and Bud Tower. Lyrically, it appears to oppose all kinds of gun control, a notable change from the lyrical stance of the original Lynyrd Skynyrd fronted by Ronnie Van Zant, who many claim sang against handguns in the song Saturday Night Special. When one cites a line from "Saturday Night Special", Van Zant's position on gun control might seem unclear:
01:47:19 <elliott> "Why don't we dump em, people, to the bottom of the sea", with the subject of the sentence being "em", or handguns, which might also be interpreted as "Why don't we dump em people to the bottom of the sea", with the subject being em people (them people). [3] The potential ambiguity is resolved in the next line, "Before some fool come around here / Wanna shoot either you or me". Had Van Zant's subject of the previous line been "em people", then th
01:47:23 <elliott> e guns would still be accessible.]]
01:47:40 <elliott> it just sort of gets more and more ridiculous then climaxes in that final sentence
01:49:15 <oerjan> <ais523> it was meant to be named bzspoiajsd, but that name's apparently illegal in Norway <-- i don't know, our name laws have been considerably loosened in recent years.
01:49:24 <elliott> i think he was thinking of sweden
01:49:36 <elliott> hmm, i should read techdirt more
01:49:38 <ais523> but besides, "recent years"
01:49:47 <ais523> I don't think it was recent when Knuth wrote TeX
01:50:14 <zzo38> Do you mean \linepenalty was supposed to be bzspoiajsd but they wanted to make sure the program was not illegal in Norway????
01:50:39 <elliott> Yes, that is what we mean.
01:50:46 <ais523> zzo38: we may well be lying, though
01:50:55 <zzo38> elliott: I don't believe that.....
01:51:28 <ais523> it's ok if you don't believe it or if you do believe it, in the end everybody has to be able to make up their own mind
01:51:54 <oerjan> i have little idea what our name law does say these days
01:56:25 <oerjan> bzspoiajsd is probably illegal anyway, it's just too weird.
01:56:47 <elliott> oerjan: I FIND THAT VERY OFFENSIVE
01:56:59 * elliott decides not to reveal that his name is actually Bzspoiajsd "Elliott" Hird for the time being
01:57:32 <zzo38> I also do not like that it should be disallow just because of too weird. They haveto make up more name so that not everyone has the same name!!!
01:57:47 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> I also do not like that it should be disallow just because of too weird. They haveto make up more name so that not everyone has the same name!!!
01:57:50 <HackEgo> 346) <zzo38> I also do not like that it should be disallow just because of too weird. They haveto make up more name so that not everyone has the same name!!!
01:58:03 <oerjan> you are not allowed to give a child a first name that would be a considerable burden to it. the word "considerable" (vesentlig) was added in the recent liberalization.
01:58:23 <elliott> dammit, so much for Dicknose Hird
01:58:38 <oerjan> also you cannot use a surname as a first name unless it's already traditionally a first name.
01:58:40 <elliott> GUESS WE NEED THAT ABORTION AFTER ALL
01:58:45 <zzo38> What if the child decide to change their own name afterward? What are laws about that?
01:58:51 <elliott> (if we say this enough, the conservatives will get scared about the name law causing rampant abortion)
01:59:32 <elliott> hmm, does configuring language-pack-en-base normally take a long time?
01:59:51 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, maybe they should get scared of the name laws (whether or not it causes abortion)
01:59:55 * oerjan clicks the actual law text
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02:00:19 <ais523> elliott: language configuration often does take a while
02:00:23 <elliott> [Smoking Everywhere] (4:43:09 PM): NO LIMIT
02:00:25 <elliott> [CX] (4:43:21 PM): awesome!
02:00:25 <elliott> ^ this was judged to actually change a contract
02:00:49 <elliott> NO LIMIT constituted an acception of the previous offer to change the contract (a few lines saying "blah blah if I have your blessing"), "awesome!" was the agreement
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02:01:04 <elliott> ais523: it's been doing it for about 10 minutes
02:01:28 <ais523> it normally doesn't take /that/ long
02:01:38 <elliott> which is what's worrying me
02:01:41 <elliott> I think I'll restart the installation
02:02:04 <elliott> the VM is worryingly slow, anyway
02:04:07 <elliott> hmm, now the installer won't even start
02:05:24 <oerjan> §3: Surnames held by more than 200 people in Norway can be changed to by anyone without consent. otherwise you need their consent or have a specific right to use it.
02:08:39 <oerjan> A surname which _no one_ has, you can use unless (1) It's too similar to another, protected name (2) It's identical to a wellknown trademark or similar (3) Is or has been used as a first name, and is not traditionally also a surname.
02:09:24 <elliott> oh well, at least it stops parents giving their kids names like "Ørjan Johansen"
02:09:37 <oerjan> true, true. (note: not actually true.)
02:09:49 <elliott> clearly I must start Johansen Enterprises
02:09:55 <zzo38> Do they have a list of what is traditionally a given name and surname?
02:10:05 <oerjan> (Johansen is still the second most common surname in norway, iirc)
02:10:17 <elliott> so are you like Joe Smith?
02:10:48 <oerjan> zzo38: the central people register, is what the law refers to
02:11:20 <oerjan> no, more like Gregor Smith
02:12:01 <oerjan> (Ørjan is no. 50 or so, unless i misremember)
02:12:16 <libc\x2Eso> "Smith" is a common surname in Norway? :P
02:12:46 <libc\x2Eso> Oh, or do you think that Gregor is like name #50 in England/America?
02:13:21 <oerjan> i did report on my checks in the statistical name database on this channel previously...
02:14:04 <oerjan> libc\x2Eso: well i first thought "George" which is actually cognate to Ørjan, but then thought that has to be too common
02:14:38 <libc\x2Eso> Gregory might be #50, Gregor can't be more than #15,000 in England or America.
02:14:44 <elliott> http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/imgad?id=CMayhejY6P_D5QEQrAIY2AQyCHE0hnAwrr-0
02:15:24 <elliott> <libc\x2Eso> Gregory might be #50, Gregor can't be more than #15,000 in England or America.
02:15:36 <oerjan> libc\x2Eso: oh actually Ørjan is 152
02:15:46 <oerjan> i just remembered the "5" part :D
02:16:04 <libc\x2Eso> "Gregor" is effectively unheard of in the US, I can't speak for England. People assume I'm not American based on my name.
02:16:22 <elliott> you're the first gregor i know
02:16:26 <elliott> and your name sounds so like
02:16:30 <elliott> it sounds like a really common name
02:16:44 <elliott> this is like an optical illusion :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDfghjklup0[i]o;f'lp
02:17:23 <oerjan> Smith is not _unheard_ of in norway, btw, our neighbors when i group up had that name, and there are the "Smith's friends"...
02:18:06 <libc\x2Eso> I can't find a /first name/ DB for USA.
02:18:43 <ais523> Gregor is pretty rare as a first name in the UK too
02:18:52 <ais523> MacGregor is a common surname, though
02:18:53 <elliott> ima call libc\x2Eso Mendel from now on
02:19:10 <libc\x2Eso> Heredity: I invented it. That's right. Invented.
02:19:24 <elliott> i wonder why this vm is so slow
02:20:08 <libc\x2Eso> Gregory is #37. Gregor isn't in the top 300. I would be surprised if it's in the top 10,000.
02:20:35 <oerjan> here's the statistical page in english: http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/00/navn_en/
02:20:47 <elliott> on loading the floppy module
02:21:05 <libc\x2Eso> In fact, it seems there are too few Gregors in the USA for the census to report it in its summary data
02:21:05 <elliott> i wonder if they cripple the open source version :D
02:22:26 <libc\x2Eso> There are more Eldens, more Keneths who don't know how to spell, more Modestos, more Warners, more Andreases, more Rayfords :P
02:23:21 <elliott> What's the frekwensee Keneth?
02:23:45 <oerjan> the english page seems to be missing first names listed by frequency though
02:24:39 * oerjan knew a Greger back in the old home town. mad as a hatter.
02:25:02 <oerjan> as in, paranoid schizophrenia or something.
02:25:33 <oerjan> or well, i didn't know him as much as my parents did
02:26:56 <oerjan> because my home town doesn't have a university?
02:27:03 <elliott> oerjan: build one there? :/
02:27:12 <elliott> that sounds like a pokemon
02:27:24 <elliott> its call would just be a distorted "grefrath"
02:27:40 <libc\x2Eso> An old family name in the Richards family, Dodifer, doesn't appear :P
02:27:41 <oerjan> libc\x2Eso: are you saying _grefrath_ is more common than gregor?
02:28:00 <libc\x2Eso> Now I'm just staring at silly names :P
02:28:28 <elliott> WHAT'S THE LEAST FREQUENT NAME
02:28:52 <elliott> Is it Shwiuqeiêé'eakrtaqx (pronounced "Chan-ikwah")
02:33:23 <oerjan> §4 lists a lot of ways you can have a right to a surname, starting with your great great grandparents having had it, and including marriage, farm names and a lot of other minor cases. Adoption is not there but in §5.
02:34:46 <elliott> yay, newer closed source virtualbox is... kind of faster
02:35:07 <ais523> elliott: also kind-of broken
02:35:32 <elliott> (it does start with an oracle logo on bootup though, which I find repulsive :))
02:35:51 <ais523> at least on our NetHack TASing server, trying to poweroff hangs, force-quitting corrupts the disk image, and the kernel spouts all sorts of filesystem errors on reload
02:36:05 <elliott> ais523: known bug with ext4
02:36:10 <elliott> it tells you to enable the host cache
02:37:13 <oerjan> §6 allows you to make the spelling of your surname less weird. Also to change the gender ending if it has one. (The latter isn't precisely common.)
02:37:46 <elliott> and again, virtualbox gets stuck on the
02:37:51 <elliott> of loading the floppy module
02:38:28 <elliott> maybe i'll install the EXACT VERSION vorpal used
02:40:46 <elliott> ais523: i think i concur re kind of broken
02:40:55 <oerjan> §7 allows you to combine two surnames with a hyphen. §8 prohibits using surnames as first names unless traditionally first names. §9 allows surnames to be used as middle names. §10 contains the prohibition agains adopting a name that could be a considerable burden, it actually says nothing about whether it's a child or not.
02:41:26 <oerjan> also, "other strong reasons"
02:41:31 * elliott http://dlc.sun.com/virtualbox/3.2.6/
02:41:47 <elliott> karmic? that's the same thing as maverick!
02:41:51 <elliott> or did lucid come after karmic
02:42:16 <elliott> ais523: so are you planning on updating to ubuntu 11.04?
02:42:28 <ais523> perhaps; I didn't update to 10.10
02:42:33 <ais523> I may go LTS from now on
02:42:42 <oerjan> §10 also prohibits changing your name more than every 10th year, except in certain cases like marriage or reversing a previous change
02:42:47 <ais523> also, Ubuntu's getting a worse attitude as time goes on
02:42:48 <elliott> ais523: the thing with 11.04 is that you get Unity, which is terrible
02:42:59 <elliott> (it had the potential to be good, but last I checked, it's god-awful)
02:43:01 <ais523> hopefully it'll be less terrible by release
02:43:07 <elliott> ais523: it's at beta already...
02:43:25 <ais523> from what I've heard, the concept's decent, but the implementation is so inefficient it doesn't run on anything
02:43:35 <elliott> it's not about inefficiency, it's that it's basically a skeleton
02:43:40 <elliott> like the application picker thing
02:43:44 <elliott> you can type things and click things
02:43:50 <elliott> I'm not even sure pasting worked
02:44:03 <elliott> and the way you can drag the icons on the left was just... weird and stupid and pointles
02:44:19 <elliott> ais523: FWIW, I can vouch that Debian works flawlessly on your hardware (well, its big brother, but they're basically identical)
02:44:39 <ais523> yep, I'm just not sure if I want to go through the trouble of an OS reinstall
02:44:42 <elliott> and Debian ~= older Ubuntu, with a tiny tweak to make PolicyKit use sudo
02:44:51 <elliott> I wonder if upgrading will keep Gnome
02:44:52 * oerjan sees a bug in §6: it doesn't consider the case of a gender _prefix_ like arabic ibn/bint
02:45:54 <oerjan> although since that surname doesn't actually inherit as such, it should only apply to actual transgendering...
02:46:42 <elliott> "transgendering", there's a word
02:47:12 <elliott> lol, googling suggest dan brown was the first to use it
02:47:14 <elliott> [[The act of tattooing one’s skin was a transformative declaration of power, an announcement to the world: I am in control of my own flesh. The intoxicating feeling of control derived from physical transformation had addicted millions to flesh-altering practices …. . . cosmetic surgery, body piercing, bodybuilding, and steroids . . . even bulimia and transgendering.]]
02:47:16 <oerjan> and the change would probably be allowed by the other paragraphs in any case (that one in particular says that changing the gender doesn't count as a change at all for the rest of the law)
02:47:25 <elliott> that has to the most bizarre paragraph i've read in a while
02:48:45 <oerjan> might be going slightly off the deep there at the end
02:48:50 <elliott> ugh, the version vorpal used seems to be no faster
02:50:29 <elliott> I wish the port of OpenGenera to linux sucked less, so it could be used directly
02:50:38 <elliott> but then it's genera itself that craps all over your config...
02:52:39 <elliott> libc\x2Eso: "maloader is a Mach-O (OSX) loader for Linux. It is already able to run the XCode toolchain on Linux. [repost from /r/linux]"
02:53:01 <elliott> libc\x2Eso: Clearly you must create (A,B)loader, parameterisable over executable format A and OS B.
02:53:13 <elliott> libc\x2Eso: it's shinh's <3
02:53:20 <elliott> https://github.com/shinh/maloader
02:53:44 <libc\x2Eso> Also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQTW7Pd1vqc
02:53:57 <elliott> libc\x2Eso: DON'T THANK ME, THANK SHINH
02:54:11 <elliott> libc\x2Eso: ALL THANKS GO TO SHINH
02:54:16 <elliott> <libc\x2Eso> Also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQTW7Pd1vqc
02:54:24 <elliott> Ten seconds in, this already has more melody than the entire original
02:54:29 <oerjan> §14 allows the government ("the King") to make appropriate special rules for foreigners (only wrt protected surnames) and norwegians abroad.
02:54:41 <elliott> libc\x2Eso: shinh runs Anarchy Golf (http://golf.shinh.org/), implemented 64-bit support (and more) for tcc...
02:55:59 <elliott> libc\x2Eso: this is much better than the original
02:56:16 <libc\x2Eso> I'm discovering that all of Bad Lip Reading's versions are better than the originals :P
02:56:48 <elliott> Distinct chicken and fighting theme I see
02:57:49 <oerjan> §16 says that if you already have two surnames with no hyphen, you can keep it that way. i presume that and §7 means you're no longer allowed to adopt two surnames without a hyphen.
02:58:30 <elliott> libc\x2Eso: The thing is that really, you only see their lips so often, so most of this is them just making up shit X-D
03:00:20 <oerjan> and the rest of the law is just boring bureaucracy.
03:02:20 <elliott> I fear that this VM will be ridiculously slow :(
03:04:18 <elliott> libc\x2Eso: Great, now "ASIAN BABEH" is stuck in my head X_X
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03:08:42 <elliott> hey augur what are you doing on my reddits
03:11:04 <oerjan> evil linguist plotting, probably
03:12:03 <augur> elliott: whats happening with your reddits
03:13:12 <elliott> GOD DAMMIT KERNEL JUST INSTAL
03:15:37 <augur> elliott: how am i on your reddits
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03:19:02 <augur> right but where on reddit
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03:20:06 <augur> elliott: which subreddit
03:20:11 <augur> seriously, dont make me hurt you
03:20:52 <elliott> LA LA LA LA I CANT'T HEAR YOU
03:21:12 <augur> im going to assume the haskell subreddit
03:21:34 * Sgeo fails to see augur as having posted anything
03:21:42 <elliott> it was actually /r/politics
03:21:45 <elliott> you came #1 in best ranking and i was like
03:21:56 <augur> #1 in best ranking?
03:22:06 <augur> the arrested development picture
03:22:32 <elliott> oerjan: ALWAYS WITH THE CHEAP KARMA THAT AUGUR
03:22:43 <augur> elliott: you know it!
03:22:47 <elliott> we /real/ #esoteric redditors, why, we contribute things of value, don't we ais523
03:23:47 <elliott> ais523: btw did you see how grauenwolf replied to you?
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03:27:17 <elliott> hmm, does anyone have a simple way to create a window of WxH size in X?
03:33:15 <elliott> wow, Multics' `calendar`'s source was ugl
03:34:50 <elliott> so -flags don't originate from unix
03:34:54 <elliott> although, Multics' were multiple-word
03:34:59 <elliott> and also had abbreviations
03:35:12 <elliott> ais523: GNU didn't invent GNU long options :D
03:35:40 <ais523> did they invent the -- convention?
03:36:02 <elliott> this program seems to date back to 1972/1973
03:36:09 <elliott> and it's a huge mess of PL/I: http://multicians.org/calendar.html
03:36:18 <elliott> dunno if the indentation just got messed up or whether it was really that awful
03:36:24 <elliott> if ec ^= 0 then /* Ought to be an error, but might be old syntax. */
03:36:24 <elliott> if an = 1 then goto try_date;
03:36:25 <elliott> else goto arg_value_error;
03:36:25 <elliott> call hcs_$initiate_count(if_data.if(i).dn,if_data.if(i).en,"",if_data.if(i).bitc,1,
03:36:25 <elliott> if if_data.if(i).ifptr = null then /* Ought to be an error, but ... */
03:36:26 <elliott> if an = 1 then /* .. check for old syntax. */
03:37:00 <elliott> they sure as hell had no 80 column rule :D
03:43:13 <elliott> 11:10:02 <oklopol> you know how toilet paper comes from those weird boxes in public shitting places
03:43:14 <elliott> 11:10:14 <fizzie> oklopol: Thus far it's not sounding like a love story.
03:43:30 <elliott> Should have included 11:09:58 <fizzie> oklopol: You met your true love at the uni?!
03:44:13 <elliott> 11:14:24 <ais523> the same sort of discovery as when you put a battery in backwards in an old-fashioned analog battery-powered clock, and the hands start ticking backwards
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03:44:32 <ais523> on some sorts of clock, at least
03:44:34 <ais523> possibly not all of them
03:44:40 <elliott> ais523: my life is complete
03:44:48 <Gregor> Argh. Stupid bip. Every time I connect from a different place it names me back to Gregor :P
03:44:56 <ais523> it never works on digital clocks, but certain analog clocks, it does
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03:50:38 <elliott> 11:20:38 * ais523 has trouble remembering events from the future
03:50:44 <elliott> ais523: lol if it worked on digital clocks
03:53:34 <elliott> 15:54:04 <alise> There once lived a family of old, old wasps. These wasps, every day, would clamour for a chance to see the Queen Wasp -- like a queen bee, but more a figurehead than a head of state, you see -- and the rest of the time they fantasised about seeing the Queen Wasp. One day they all got killed in a very boring way, and Bjorn knew nothing of this as he passed through the forest in which they didn't live.
03:53:35 <elliott> wow, i used to be a poet :|
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04:11:43 <elliott> 13:39:12 <Gregor-W> AnMaster: So is their C-to-LISP compiler actually available? Does it work with semi-real code?
04:11:53 <elliott> Gregor: to belatedly answer: AFAIK ZETA C is not available.
04:12:01 <elliott> http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/TI/Explorer/zeta-c/
04:12:11 <elliott> There is a TI emulator, though.
04:12:28 <Gregor> Wow, talk about "belatedly"
04:12:48 <elliott> Gregor: ZETA-C is awesome; its pointers are actually cons cells.
04:12:55 <elliott> (array . index). NULL is (NIL . 0).
04:13:08 <elliott> "All pointers were represented as pairs of an array and an index; NULL was
04:13:09 <elliott> simply a pair of NIL and 0. If you cast a pointer to an integer, you got a
04:13:09 <elliott> cons of the array part and the index part. You could later cast this back to
04:13:09 <elliott> a pointer without loss of information, but obviously you couldn't do
04:13:09 <elliott> arithmetic on it while it was in the form of a cons."
04:13:24 <elliott> "ZETA-C attempted (fairly successfully, I think) to find the right compromise
04:13:24 <elliott> between performance and generality. If you looked real closely, there were
04:13:24 <elliott> lots of little corners of C semantics where ZETA-C was not correct. In
04:13:24 <elliott> practice, however, one very rarely tripped over any of these.
04:13:24 <elliott> For instance, I used Lisp integers for C `int' and `long'. This meant bignums
04:13:25 <elliott> would be created automatically, as usual in Lisp. Technically this is not a
04:13:27 <elliott> correct C implementation (even though I don't think the standard specifically
04:13:29 <elliott> says that the length of `int' and `long' shall be finite, one can take this as
04:13:31 <elliott> implied) but it very rarely ran into trouble. The only such case I remember,
04:13:33 <elliott> which was rather amusing, was a program that did something like
04:13:43 <elliott> for (i = 1; i; i <<= 1) ...
04:13:43 <elliott> (shifting a 1 bit left repeatedly, expecting it to fall off the left end of
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04:25:39 <elliott> 15:41:49 <oklopol> i would like to inform you all that i just fixed an error in Gregor's plof implementation using my penis
04:25:39 <elliott> 15:42:30 <Gregor-W> He didn't fix it, he just identified it.
04:26:05 <Gregor> You seem to think I have memory.
04:26:12 <elliott> 15:45:57 <oerjan> alise: @ despite appearances is a reserved _word_ (operator-like word), not a reserved character, so it doesn't count as special inside other operators. many other things like -- and \ are similar, afair. but somethings work like actual punctuation, like brackets, semicolons and commas. iirc.
04:26:20 <elliott> Gregor: I don't eithello Gregor!
04:26:27 <elliott> How are you toit sure is boring today.
04:26:38 <elliott> Nobody's said anything in the laman, I am a rabbit indeed.
04:26:39 <Sgeo> Reddit is down
04:26:51 <Sgeo> Meaning #reddit-downtime is crowded with nuts
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04:37:13 <variable> The only problem with troubleshooting is that sometimes trouble shoots back.
04:38:58 <oerjan> > let (+;) = 3 in (+;)
04:38:59 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `;'
04:39:32 <oerjan> i guess allowing ; would just be too weird.
04:39:47 <oerjan> also complicate the indentation rule
04:40:43 <oerjan> > let (+,) = 3 in (+,)
04:40:44 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `,'
04:43:11 <oerjan> oh and it would interact badly with unary minus
04:43:25 <oerjan> of course some things already do that
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04:54:17 <elliott> WTF, now the VM crashes on boot
04:55:47 <elliott> das u-boot is a bootloader :p
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05:02:25 <oerjan> hm i don't like this network error, that's the second time this week
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05:03:00 <Sgeo> variable, what is your Clearance?
05:03:06 <oerjan> it's coming from _inside_ the house
05:04:00 <oerjan> i have an idea i'll try if it happens again, though.
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05:07:57 <oerjan> (one of the router boxes looks like it might be misbehaving, but the other one was recently replaced and now has many more outgoing whatchamacallits, so i may just scratch the misbehaving one. perhaps.)
05:11:33 <elliott> gah, genera does not seem to be working
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05:15:15 <Sgeo> Citizen! Failure to properly report your clearance is treason!
05:18:28 <elliott> variable: buy me a lisp machine ktnx
05:22:37 <elliott> hasn't dignified any bootup text yet though
05:23:26 <elliott> kinda disappointed variable isn't rushing to purchase me a lisp machine, that's never happened to me before
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05:42:10 <elliott> hey Vorpal! I think I may have a clue why internet in genera didn't work
05:42:19 <elliott> "Address for GENERA: INTERNET 172.23.24.15" --the define site screen
05:42:22 <elliott> that doesn't look right to me!
05:42:44 <elliott> oh wait that is right for the vm
05:55:22 <elliott> Vorpal: it works. thank you, thank you, thank you for creating this guide.
05:55:48 <elliott> http://ompldr.org/vODNieQ "It is two hundred sixty-seven words long."
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06:52:10 <elliott> What was the first full-ASCII terminal?
06:52:15 <elliott> As in, both uppercase and lowercase.
06:57:00 <elliott> Gregor: BTW, also-belatedly in reply, I half-plan to write a mouse-oriented tiling WM since none seem to exist (apart from... acme).
06:57:06 <elliott> Actually wmii might do it...
07:09:51 <elliott> http://vlee.sourceforge.net/
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08:08:19 <elliott> "I have two thoughts about why students resist the idea of functions being values of no fundamentally different character than any others. One source, no doubt, is that many of them have “learned” programming on the street, and have developed all sorts of misconceptions that are being applied here."
08:08:25 <elliott> Dangerous street programming gangs!
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08:21:50 <Vorpal> <elliott> hey Vorpal! I think I may have a clue why internet in genera didn't work <-- oh?
08:22:27 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway, it works, but it's a crapshoot to get it started; half the time the bottom bar loads and I can move my mouse around and it changes but it won't load the rest and clicking out of the window causes X to freeze silently
08:22:52 <Vorpal> elliott, I haven't had that issue you mentioned
08:23:01 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: it works. thank you, thank you, thank you for creating this guide. <-- so does that mean you think I'm awesome?
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08:23:55 <Vorpal> <elliott> Dangerous street programming gangs! <-- I like the idea
08:24:45 <elliott> well you'd be awesome if it didn't hang like that. and if it were faster. and if the scroll wheel worked.
08:24:54 <elliott> ...and backspace worked...
08:25:22 <Vorpal> elliott, the scrollback worked afaik?
08:25:33 <Vorpal> elliott, and delete does what backspace does
08:25:39 <elliott> but delete is annoying to press her
08:25:59 <elliott> Fn+Shift+F10 was fun to press.
08:26:10 <elliott> as in, "I now have carpal tunnel" fun
08:26:25 <Vorpal> elliott, well that is your keyboard's fault
08:26:38 <Vorpal> elliott, my thinkpad have proper keys for it
08:26:52 <elliott> and depends on your definition of proper
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08:26:55 <Vorpal> elliott, besides Fn+Shift is easy, Fn is right below shift
08:26:59 <elliott> if you mean clustered at the top in a random jumble... :P
08:27:06 <elliott> and yes it is, but i still had to bend my hand to get both pressed
08:27:20 <Vorpal> elliott, or move your hand
08:27:35 <elliott> 10:48:32 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it's a lovely idea, but I enjoy programming, and as such am a terrible developer.
08:27:35 <elliott> HA HA HA THOSE WERE THE DAYS
08:28:04 <elliott> Lisp OS things. But the point is that PH said he enjoys programming there, ha ha ha
08:28:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I thought he enjoyed procrastinating?
08:29:00 <elliott> I wonder if I could write the @ compiler in BitC.
08:29:52 <Vorpal> elliott, or write your own meta compiler in coq? Which is used to compile the compiler
08:31:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Do you think a hash tree would work for storing objects in @?
08:32:46 <elliott> 11:17:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course I mean VirtualBox. Writing bootloaders in Visual Basic is so stupid it's almost cool.
08:33:54 <Vorpal> elliott, hash tree? Err?
08:34:03 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_tree
08:35:13 <Vorpal> seems to be used for verification rather?
08:35:32 <Vorpal> btw I think I have a cold
08:35:52 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, but if you look at the structure...
08:35:57 <elliott> and pretend the arrows go the other way...
08:36:03 <elliott> it's suddenly a lookup tree
08:38:10 <elliott> 12:09:18 <alise> Basically, aliseOS will make you toast, take over the internet so you have some more computing power, make your mind explode every time you use it, and sexually gratify your dog*.
08:38:10 <elliott> 12:09:29 <alise> *Advanced edition only.
08:38:11 <elliott> 12:10:46 <zzo38> But I don't have a dog
08:38:11 <elliott> 12:10:57 <alise> zzo38: It will buy you a dog first.
08:38:11 <elliott> 12:11:28 <zzo38> But I don't need a dog
08:38:45 <elliott> (12:11:36 <alise> Yes, but the dog will be cuddly, you see. <zzo38> But I don't want a dog)
08:43:46 <elliott> routine that is a pain to code in python: "if all these lines start with a common whitespace prefix, remove it from all of them"
08:52:39 <oerjan> > transpose . dropWhile ((`elem` [" ", "\t"]) . map head . group) . transpose $ [" \t a ha", " \t\tbc", " \t hm"]
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09:17:02 <elliott> oerjan: get it right so i can port it :-D
09:19:23 <oerjan> > join (drop . length . takeWhile (`elem` [" ","\t"]) . map (map head . group) . transpose) $ [" \t a ha", " \t\tbc", " \t hm"]
09:19:47 <oerjan> > join (map . drop . length . takeWhile (`elem` [" ","\t"]) . map (map head . group) . transpose) $ [" \t a ha", " \t\tbc", " \t hm"]
09:20:31 <elliott> that should strp no prefix
09:20:37 <elliott> it should strip just the \t
09:21:19 <oerjan> it does what i thought it should...
09:21:47 <elliott> > join (map . drop . length . takeWhile (`elem` [" ","\t"]) . map (map head . group) . transpose) $ [" x"," x"," x"]
09:22:03 <elliott> ok, now to find a way to express that in a way that Idiot Python will understand
09:22:33 <elliott> > transpose [[1,2,3],[4,5,6]]
09:22:48 <elliott> oerjan: it'd probably be easier to convert this whole program to haskell :D
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09:23:20 <oerjan> note i am giving no guarantees that this is the most efficient method, even in haskell...
09:24:13 <elliott> i can't believe i'm brainfreezing on how to do it in python X_X
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09:25:13 <elliott> HEY OERJAN, MAKE AN IMPERATIVE ALGORITHM FOR IT :D
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09:25:47 <oerjan> um loop over the first line until you either hit whitespace or something which isn't in all lines?
09:27:09 <elliott> oerjan: except that the first line could have more than the prefix
09:27:29 <elliott> where m is the prefix chars and n is the number of lines apart from the first
09:28:10 <oerjan> that's not strange, that's how many characters you actually need to check to be sure what to remove
09:29:45 <oerjan> trying to drink gravy from one compartment in a telly dinner while there is still liquid in another is not recommended.
09:32:16 <oerjan> it's still O(n) in the actual file size
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09:35:39 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, you've now given me the most pathetic image ever.
09:36:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Unemployed mathematician sitting on a sofa with TV dinner liquid all over him.
09:52:06 <oerjan> yes. although it was just a little potato water.
09:52:18 <oerjan> and a chair, not a sofa.
09:53:02 <elliott> why, i'd PAY oerjan to be an unemployed mathematician
09:53:25 <elliott> note: this counts as employment
09:55:39 <elliott> oerjan: i'll pay you to work on @ ;D
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10:57:16 <Vorpal> elliott, I looked more at the hash-tree, and I can't see how you could use it for lookup
10:57:27 <elliott> Vorpal: Like I said, pretend the arrows go the other way X-D
10:57:31 <Vorpal> elliott, each hash is a hash of the entire subset of blocks
10:57:50 <Vorpal> elliott, yes indeed, but I can't figure out how you can make it more than one level deep (a hash-list...)
10:59:47 <Vorpal> elliott, so in other words, it won't work
10:59:59 <Vorpal> elliott, b-tree is useful :P
11:00:16 <Vorpal> elliott, okay do a b+-tree then
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14:12:34 <elliott> 15:29:34 <olsner> it's like, drowning while strapped to a board and having fun!
14:16:59 <elliott> 15:25:23 <elliott> olsner: ok so maybe with waterboarding you're actually like
14:16:59 <elliott> 15:25:29 <elliott> olsner: lying flat on the board at all times
14:16:59 <elliott> 15:26:10 <olsner> hmm, that could work
14:16:59 <elliott> 15:26:24 <olsner> although you do that when surfing too, just not all the time
14:16:59 <elliott> 15:27:07 <elliott> olsner: right, but CONSTANTLY
14:16:59 <elliott> 15:27:09 <elliott> olsner: ooh
14:17:01 <elliott> 15:27:16 <elliott> olsner: maybe your arms go underneath, and you tie them to it
14:17:03 <elliott> 15:27:18 <elliott> same with feet
14:17:05 <elliott> 15:27:21 <elliott> you become one with the board!
14:17:07 <elliott> 15:29:34 <olsner> it's like, drowning while strapped to a board and having fun!
14:17:10 <elliott> 15:30:39 <elliott> olsner: yup!
14:17:11 <elliott> 15:30:46 <elliott> olsner: just like waterboarding.
14:17:13 <elliott> 15:32:37 <olsner> well, the torture version is less likely to kill you I think
14:17:23 <elliott> olsner: Thank you for this life wisdom:
14:17:25 <elliott> 17:26:33 <olsner> it's all fun and games until you think of the details
14:24:08 <elliott> 20:08:46 <Sgeo> I also like what I've heard of Nickleback
14:24:08 <elliott> 20:09:04 <Sgeo> Although the lyrics are objectionable -- I am able to hande that
14:24:08 <elliott> i should only read logs from like 2005 so i don't have to have my nice relaxing times pooped on by terribleness
14:24:48 <elliott> 20:11:27 <Sgeo> Are you saying I can hear the same melody, with different lyrics???
14:24:48 <elliott> MY LIFE IS FINALLY COMPLETE
14:26:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WHEN DID YOU THINK IT WAS FROM
14:29:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: YOU THINK THAT'S DISTANT, I WAS IN HERE A WHOLE ONE TIME IN 2006
14:29:43 <elliott> [~/esotericlogs]% grep ehird 06.* 20
14:29:44 <elliott> 06.12.29:12:42:41 --- join: ehird (n=ehird@user-5440e204.wfd80a.dsl.pol.co.uk) joined #esoteric
14:29:44 <elliott> 06.12.29:12:43:09 --- part: ehird left #esoteric
14:30:32 <elliott> [~/esotericlogs]% grep ehird 06.* | wc -l
14:30:33 <elliott> [~/esotericlogs]% grep ehird 07.* | wc -l
14:32:46 <elliott> [~/esotericlogs]% for i in 06 07 08 09 10; do grep "^..:..:.. <(ehird|elliott|alise|iEhird)[^>]*>" $i.* | wc -l; done
14:32:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: STATISTICS
14:34:22 <Phantom_Hoover> (I'm amazed you were able to increase your activity from '09 to '10 despite being institutionalised for most of it.)
14:35:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You have NO IDEA how quickly I can type on an iPhone now.
14:35:55 <elliott> Also, '10 I was locked up, '09 I was free. But yeah, no idea how I managed to quadruple my activity :P
14:36:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I should totally implement my iPhone lockout mechanism on my family's WiFi network just to annoy my father and sister.)
14:37:06 <elliott> Define your iPhone lockout mechanism. Character in password not on iPhone keyboards?
14:38:28 <elliott> 21:54:38 <catseye> HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
14:38:28 <elliott> 21:54:48 <catseye> i had OS/2 Warp once.
14:38:28 <elliott> 21:55:02 <catseye> i had all those fucking floppies
14:38:28 <elliott> 21:55:04 <catseye> it never worked.
14:38:28 <elliott> some people are just poets
14:38:35 <elliott> 21:55:41 <elliott> catseye: summary of computing.
14:38:38 <elliott> some people are DOUBLE POETS
14:40:09 <elliott> brb editing [[wikipedia:computing]]
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14:48:38 <elliott> 23:21:31 <catseye> (i'll have an orange coke. let's slap a bsd gpl on this thing and check it into the github sccs.)
14:54:26 <elliott> 11:14:27 <cpressey> There's a squirrel that lives near my building that I see every so often. I can recognize it's the same squirrel because it has no tail. It is a constant reminder that, visually speaking anyway, squirrels are approximately 50% tail.
14:55:28 <olsner> it's a half-a-squirrel
14:56:11 <olsner> it would nicely symmetrical if there was a squirrel tail running about somewhere
14:57:23 <elliott> Apr 3 12:32:11 rutian thttpd[25281]: 92.240.68.152 - - "GET /wp-content/uploads/2008/10/game-console.jpg HTTP/1.1" 404 0 "http://www.altavista.com/image/randomlink" "webcollage/1.135a"
15:09:41 <olsner> looks like it's an altvista-themed frontend for yahoo nowadays
15:12:49 <Gregor> And it's still MORNING
15:13:31 <Gregor> He /nick'd to pingveno a while ago and doesn't seem to talk much recently.
15:15:58 <elliott> olsner: btw: so gonna work on that forth again
15:17:58 <elliott> olsner: one problem is i need to copy the dictionary elsewhere, cuz right now it's in my code :D
15:18:21 <olsner> if you put it at the end of your code, can't you just keep adding to it? :)
15:19:17 <elliott> i don't feel like making sure that aligns as some junk dictionary word
15:20:43 <elliott> hmm, how did i break my interpreter
15:21:40 <elliott> olsner: some of the words are promisingly tiny though
15:22:41 <Vorpal> oh doing the forth again? heh
15:23:01 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, adding digit reading support and writing a compiler.
15:23:48 <Vorpal> elliott, chances of fitting it in 510 bytes?
15:24:06 <elliott> maybe more likely if i remove the interpeter :D
15:24:18 <elliott> "there's a forth there, you just can't get at it"
15:26:20 <elliott> Gregor: no, forth terminology is interpreter
15:26:41 <elliott> Gregor: a forth interpreter reads words and executes them. a forth compiler reads words and compiles them into a new word definition
15:26:54 <elliott> you invoke the compiler with the : word in the interpreter
15:27:17 <Gregor> Fine, but presumably the main problem isn't the interpreter /per se/, but the keyboard interrupt driver, display, all that BS.
15:27:37 <elliott> Well, still, the interpreter is my longest subroutine :P
15:28:29 <Gregor> Ohwow, we actually get to see some code?
15:28:42 <Gregor> "ahem" is a good block name :P
15:28:55 <elliott> not sure what inspired me to call that ahem :D
15:29:55 <elliott> hmm, i should factor out that word-finder
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15:31:27 <elliott> Gregor: FWIW, the definition of "Forth" this thing uses is very loose :P
15:32:05 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
15:32:45 <Gregor> Well, being /spiritually/ Forth is what's important, not being e.g. ANS Forth :P
15:33:07 <elliott> Gregor: Define spiritually :P
15:33:34 <Gregor> You must worship the great Forth god.
15:35:13 <elliott> hey omnipit-olsner, after a jz and a ret, will another jz have the same branch?
15:35:16 <elliott> or could it branch any old way
15:35:29 <elliott> i.e. does jz or ret invalidate/reset the flag
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15:47:44 <Vorpal> elliott, do you need that compiler? Can't you just do threaded code?
15:47:59 <Vorpal> string threaded I mean
15:48:05 <Vorpal> elliott, as in, interpret everything
15:48:13 <elliott> plz 2 learn how forth works
15:49:50 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
15:59:47 <elliott> do additions to bl overflow into bh?
16:09:32 -!- asiekierka has joined.
16:09:57 <Vorpal> issue with firefox 4: if I type a m at the start of the address bar, it eats it up as a short cut for switch to tab. Extremely annoying. Any idea how to disable?
16:11:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, there are some things I don't like with chrome.
16:16:06 <elliott> LIKE HOW THEY SEND ALL YOUR DATA TO THE GOOGLES AM I RIGHT
16:18:01 <Vorpal> elliott, no. I'm talking about stuff like where the tab bar is. (Yes I know their motivation for it, I don't like it still.) And how it doesn't look native in a Gnome environment.
16:18:15 <Vorpal> at least not last I checked.
16:18:18 <elliott> There are themes to make it native for just about any gnome theme.
16:18:24 <elliott> That + tell it to use WM decorations.
16:18:34 <Vorpal> elliott, as for the tab bar?
16:18:52 <elliott> Vorpal: If you won't use a browser because of a few pixels difference in where the tab bar is placed, I say you're making up excuses.
16:19:31 <Vorpal> elliott, also, I couldn't find advanced options for cookie acception last I looked. And is there a noscript for chrome? Adblock? Firebug?
16:19:41 <elliott> you can move the tabs to the side with dev channel IIRC
16:19:52 <elliott> Vorpal: noscript yes (built in even, but there are extensions too)
16:20:02 <elliott> firebug maybe. there's always the webkit inspector which works fine for me
16:20:08 <elliott> and has basically the same features
16:20:24 <Vorpal> including modifying it on the fly?
16:20:25 <elliott> there is also http://getfirebug.com/releases/lite/chrome/
16:20:36 <elliott> firebug lite is shitty though imo
16:20:44 <Vorpal> elliott, right, so what about the cookie stuff?
16:20:55 <elliott> https://chrome.google.com/extensions/?hl=en
16:21:10 <elliott> https://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/cfhdojbkjhnklbpkdaibdccddilifddb?hl=en ;; TOTALLY OFFICIAL (TM) adblock
16:22:47 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:23:05 <elliott> https://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/ppfdcmehpgiojcjgpclmfnbnpdmcmbgo ;; clearlooks scrollbars, not a full theme though :-p
16:24:16 <elliott> Vorpal: I recommend using the official repos btw on an distro that can. (the .deb from their frontpage just adds an apt repository, installs the chrome package, and self-destructs)
16:24:25 <elliott> chrome updates far more frequently than debian or ubuntu do :-P
16:25:04 <Vorpal> elliott, well I found how to disable the thing in firefox
16:31:58 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/ghnea/those_of_you_labeled_smart_how_has_it_affected_you/
16:32:01 -!- nooga has joined.
16:45:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's Well-Known(tm) that telling kids they're smart kills 'em :P
16:46:00 -!- azaq23 has joined.
16:46:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, at least my parents refuse to acknowledge that I am in any way talented.
16:49:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: QUITE RIGHT HUR HUR
16:50:18 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:50:55 <ais523> theory: most houses are actually haunted, but by especially shy ghosts who never make their presence known
16:51:21 <Vorpal> ais523, sounds logical
16:51:40 <ais523> oh, it's just a theory
16:51:45 <ais523> but one that's kind-of hard to disprove
16:52:12 <elliott> even by the informal sense
16:52:15 <elliott> because it's not falsifiable
16:52:50 <Vorpal> also you mean hypothesis, not theory
16:52:52 <elliott> now, why is btr behaving wrongly?
16:53:03 <elliott> Vorpal: theory means hypothesis in informal conversation.
16:53:17 <elliott> otoh what ais523 said is just a religious belief, so it's a wild conjecture, not a theory or a hypothesis or anything :)
16:53:19 <Vorpal> which is wonderfully confusing
16:53:42 <Vorpal> elliott, not sure it is religious. Belief though yes.
16:53:57 <Gregor> In the informal sense, basically any sequence of words is a theory, even nonsense :P
16:54:04 <Gregor> (That's my theory anyway HERP DURP)
16:54:08 <elliott> it's a superstitious belief only able to be taken on faith
16:54:31 <Vorpal> elliott, so yes it is conjecture indeed
16:54:33 <elliott> you could institute some kind of requirement for popularity to be a religious belief, but i don't think that'd hold up in practice
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16:56:22 <elliott> hmm, wtf is u pwit hthis :/
16:56:53 <elliott> ok so it's going the wrong way around
16:57:30 <Vorpal> elliott, what are you talking about
16:58:01 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
16:59:26 <elliott> possibly the first on-topic thing i've done in ever >:D
17:00:17 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> it's a superstitious belief only able to be taken on faith ← I wouldn't define religiousness purely on that basis.
17:00:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "religious belief", not "religion"
17:02:37 <elliott> that's why it's not working
17:04:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Vorpal: now is your chance to convince me it needs to support hex
17:05:05 <elliott> also: in an unprecedented innovation, you can write your integers in packed-letter format
17:05:09 <elliott> just prefix a word with a 0!
17:05:15 <elliott> also, you can mix and match
17:05:24 <elliott> qw9f70 is a number. i'm not sure which.
17:06:05 <elliott> Well 6e2 is a block drawing character.
17:06:18 <elliott> 0qwe apparently fails to qualify for number status.
17:09:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Phantom_Hoover: ais523: WOULD YOU LIKE TO TRY OUT THE FRTH510 DEVELOPER'S PREVIEW
17:09:25 <ais523> elliott: not right now
17:09:36 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe another day
17:09:37 <elliott> but it's only a 512 byte download!
17:09:39 <elliott> and implements SEVERAL words!
17:09:46 <elliott> it can entertain you for whole SECONDS with a simple qemu call!
17:09:58 <Vorpal> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Vorpal: now is your chance to convince me it needs to support hex <-- it doesn't
17:10:18 <Vorpal> elliott, and I would need to install qemu
17:11:07 <Vorpal> elliott, not installed either
17:11:15 <Vorpal> only have virtualbox around for virtualisation
17:12:23 <elliott> anyway how long does it take for you to install a package X-D
17:13:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: do YOU want to try
17:16:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It isn't Forth, it only has six words, of which three you can actually use.
17:16:30 <elliott> One is broken and the other two have no discernable effects from inside the interpreter.
17:16:37 <elliott> Also I appear to have broken a word.
17:18:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ANYWAY THEORETICALLY THIS SYSTEM CAN ALREADY DO ANYTHING
17:18:24 <elliott> ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS POKE TO THE RIGHT LOCATIONS IN THE PROGRAM
17:18:26 <elliott> SO THAT IT DOES WHAT YOU WANT
17:22:27 <Vorpal> elliott, develop the rest using that
17:22:42 <Vorpal> that was a wonderful idea
17:22:51 <elliott> with an assembler and a lot of patience it could be done.
17:23:08 <elliott> you'd want to poke the dictionary so that you have a new entry, "do stuff", that points to some code far away
17:23:12 <Vorpal> elliott, real men pokes memory directly. With a magnetic needle
17:23:24 <elliott> and then you could just modify that code by assembling it manually and poking the words in
17:23:40 <Vorpal> elliott, how many bytes is it currently?
17:24:09 <elliott> 200 and something last I checked. it's going to expand, obviously, to grow a compiler and more words, but it's also going to contract as I microoptimise
17:24:24 <elliott> I figured out the most ghetto possible way to do IF ... THEN
17:24:45 <elliott> in most forths, if leaves a special marker on the stack
17:24:49 <elliott> then goes back and twiddles it with the pointer to the THEN
17:24:52 <elliott> so that it knows where to jump to
17:25:01 <elliott> (1) look at the call stack
17:25:04 <elliott> (2) read the calling word's code
17:25:14 <elliott> (3) skip past the call instructions until it finds the address of THEN
17:25:36 <elliott> so it works by inspecting the machine code that called it :D
17:25:52 <elliott> i'd like to see you do THAT in C
17:26:16 <Deewiant> Easy enough unless you meant portable C
17:26:24 <olsner> how will that cope with nested ifs?
17:26:41 <elliott> Deewiant: Good luck getting predictable enough code from the C compiler to manage that
17:26:46 <elliott> olsner: what's the need? you can just define multiple words
17:26:53 <elliott> olsner: iirc colorforth doesn't support nested ifs either
17:27:07 <elliott> (I'm also leaving out ELSE support for the same reason as colorforth; simpler to implement a separate return)
17:28:04 <olsner> in forth it's normal not to support nested ifs at all?
17:28:16 <elliott> colorforth hardly counts as normal forth :-D
17:28:37 <elliott> olsner: but anyway this lets me avoid any complicated "compile semantics".
17:28:42 <elliott> everything has one... semantic.
17:28:55 <elliott> apart from integer literals, which are treated specially by both interpreter and compiler :)
17:29:11 <elliott> (they are in a real forth, too, just they have a needless level of indirection (LITERAL))
17:29:39 -!- lament has joined.
17:29:45 <elliott> olsner: i think this also means that IF...THEN will fail badly in the interpreter :)
17:30:13 <elliott> since it'll try and look at the interpreter's source code, which is ofc free-form x86
17:30:23 <elliott> but who cares, define a temporary word!
17:31:16 -!- catseye has joined.
17:31:57 <elliott> what is it with norwegians and puns
17:32:36 -!- catseye has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | Catch sufficiently hello world. | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html (+Ale) | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
17:32:46 <elliott> catseye: fwiw, yoob feedback: for some reason, loading a new language hangs the thing for several seconds
17:32:51 <elliott> also clicking the about language button.
17:33:16 <elliott> "ah. i see the problem. what we need is MORE SPEED"
17:33:22 <elliott> speed(); speed(); speed();
17:33:56 <catseye> it needs to load new classes in the background
17:33:57 <elliott> also i clicked edit in ale and the whole applet went white :D
17:34:59 <Vorpal> <elliott> speed(); speed(); speed(); <-- that obviously has some call overhead without an inlining compiler! ;P
17:35:21 <elliott> catseye: if you click about -> done
17:35:26 <elliott> catseye: edit/reset/step/run become ungreyed
17:35:38 <elliott> and then clicking edit borks it
17:36:22 <elliott> actually i'm not sure why edit starts off greyed
17:36:29 <elliott> afaict it leaves no way to actually input an initial program
17:36:56 <elliott> also the brainfuck input thing reorders text if you type quickly :p
17:37:29 <catseye> um? the input thing is just a JTextArea...
17:37:41 <elliott> yes, but the implementation deletes characters from it and repositions the cursor as it goes
17:37:53 <elliott> so if you type faster than java can wake up and remove the characters, your typing gets out of order
17:38:01 <elliott> testing! can become ng!testi or whatever
17:38:18 <catseye> oh, the input box, not the program-editing box
17:38:20 <elliott> try typing hello world into revcat right as it starts
17:40:37 <catseye> it needs to be a custom control of some kind, not a textarea.
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17:41:26 <Vorpal> I wonder why ls is called ls. After all it stands for list directory? Shouldn't it be ld or lsd then? Not sure why the linker is ld... Link Objects? Should be lo?
17:41:26 -!- copumpkin has joined.
17:41:37 <elliott> catseye: preferably just a box that can hold one char?
17:41:41 <elliott> and silently buffers them behind the scenes
17:41:55 <elliott> Vorpal: List Segments from Multics
17:42:05 <elliott> in Multics, (collection of) segment(s) = file
17:42:39 <catseye> Vorpal: it was carefully chosen to produce a unique value in an existing perfect hash function
17:43:47 <elliott> catseye: you should implement frth in yoob :-P
17:44:20 <ais523> elliott: linkers used to be called loaders
17:44:29 <ais523> and ld is a plausible abbreviation for "loader"
17:44:32 <elliott> ais523: hmm, right, I think the Multics one was a loader
17:46:57 <elliott> SOMEHOW I FEEL CATSEYE DOES NOT EXPERIENCE A WAVE OF EXCITEMENT AT THIS IDEA
17:46:58 -!- impomatic has joined.
17:47:16 <ais523> wow, someone just made a 14-bit quantum register
17:47:22 <ais523> that's twice as much as the state of the art a few years ago
17:47:29 <elliott> ais523: they're second-class persons?
17:47:38 <elliott> is forcing the hand of a person allowed like that?
17:47:39 <Vorpal> <ais523> wow, someone just made a 14-bit quantum register <-- wow
17:47:44 <ais523> although they haven't hooked it up into an actual quantum computers
17:47:48 <impomatic> Elliott: what precisely are you writing?
17:47:59 <elliott> impomatic: I'm continuing work on my 510-byte Forth.
17:48:13 <elliott> impomatic: I've added integer literals; after I fix this pesky bug, I'll be adding a compiler.
17:48:35 <elliott> impomatic: And then I will RULE THE WORLD
17:48:57 <impomatic> elliott: only until Itsy-Forth is released :-P
17:49:05 <elliott> impomatic: Will IT be 510 bytes of x86?
17:49:12 <catseye> elliott: was "frth" a typo?
17:49:23 <elliott> impomatic: TECHNICALLY all this work is superfluous; it has poke, you can just poke the program you want into memory and cause the interpreter to jump there with a well-placed additional poke. So I'm DONE ALREADY and it's like 200 bytes.
17:49:41 <elliott> catseye: that's because it's neither adequately specified, implemented entirely, or mentioned outside of here ever
17:50:09 <catseye> frth = your 510-byte Forth?
17:50:17 <Vorpal> elliott, do you mean FRTH? The fingerprint?
17:50:34 <elliott> catseye: space constraints are twisting it into, uh, something more than a little esoteric
17:50:48 <impomatic> elliott: it'll be as long as it needs to be, probably 1K. Otherwise it'll be missing some features.
17:51:21 <Vorpal> elliott, impomatic: you are both doing it wrong. Do it in VHDL
17:51:29 <impomatic> I could make it smaller if I didn't worry about strict ANS compatibility.
17:51:36 <catseye> Phantom_Hoover: I'll have to implement something representing the functional/combinatorial world at some point. Lazy K is probably easier to implement than Unlambda. (guessing)
17:51:43 <elliott> impomatic: I reject your culture of demanding software spend bytes on implementing SO-CALLED ``features'' at the alter of NEEDLESS BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY.
17:52:04 <elliott> Yes, indeed, your BUREAUCRATIC programming style is OBSOLETE and OUTMODED! You would STEAL another 512 bytes from the user for no gain at all!
17:52:13 <elliott> SUPPORT FRTH, ONE TRUE MINIMALIST FORTH
17:52:19 <elliott> DOESN'T REQUIRE DOS EITHER BECAUSE IT'S AWESOME
17:52:19 <ais523> catseye: Unlambda has a few features that more or less make it deliberately awkward to implement
17:52:36 <ais523> agreed, DOS is awesome, nothing should require an awesome thing
17:55:29 <elliott> wtf is with some of these bugs :/
17:57:49 <impomatic> It's not really possible to make the interpreter/compiler loop much smaller than 100 bytes.
17:58:39 <impomatic> By the way, there's a #forth channel :-)
17:58:52 <Vorpal> elliott, you know the freebsd bootloader has forth?
17:59:02 <Vorpal> elliott, could your forth replace that one?
17:59:12 <Vorpal> to make the bootloader smaller
17:59:12 <elliott> impomatic: I know, but last time I was in it ams wouldn't shut up.
17:59:24 <elliott> impomatic: Also, err, my interpreter is smaller than that.
17:59:39 <impomatic> Hmmm... I'd be interested in seeing it.
17:59:40 <olsner> Vorpal: probably not without losing the remaining bootloader functionality :P
18:00:06 <elliott> impomatic: http://sprunge.us/JaXb Here's the currently-something's-broken version :P
18:00:14 <elliott> Those two commented out lines really should be there, there's just some weird bug I'm tracking down.
18:00:16 <catseye> the freebsd bootloader doesn't reside in the bootblock
18:00:39 <elliott> impomatic: Unless you count the word reader and word finder (as in, dictionary lookup) in the byte count.
18:00:44 <elliott> impomatic: But since the compiler reuses them..
18:01:21 <impomatic> My loop is compiler and interpreter. Probably why it's bigger.
18:01:38 <elliott> impomatic: My compiler is a separate word; I'm curious, why are yours intertwined?
18:01:58 <elliott> (next is just xchg sp, bp; ret)
18:02:18 <impomatic> I keep the top stack entry in a register instead of on the stack. Makes some of the code smaller.
18:02:22 <elliott> (that store comes out to four bytes, btw)
18:02:50 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:02:55 <elliott> fetch is six bytes including next
18:03:07 <elliott> impomatic: Well, yeah, that makes some code shorter.
18:03:13 <elliott> impomatic: But the stack manipulation words would require more juggling.
18:03:20 -!- sebbu has joined.
18:03:20 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
18:03:21 -!- sebbu has joined.
18:03:22 <elliott> So I'm not sure it pays off.
18:03:26 <elliott> impomatic: What's your NEXT?
18:03:38 <elliott> impomatic: I'm doing subroutine threaded code, btw.
18:03:54 <elliott> Also, how does that store work at all...
18:03:54 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
18:04:39 <elliott> thanks for the pop-to-dereference trick though :P
18:05:48 <impomatic> elliott: I have two different NEXT. At the moment I can do indirect of direct threaded.
18:06:08 <elliott> For me, subroutine threaded pays off massively.
18:06:16 <elliott> Because I can reuse the short x86 stack instructions.
18:06:37 <impomatic> You could use INT 3 for next. It's only 1 byte :-)
18:08:46 <impomatic> How do you handle the return address if you're using the stack for other stuff?
18:10:03 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:10:07 <impomatic> So each word starts and ends with xchg sp, bp?
18:10:27 <elliott> impomatic: No -- each word ends with it, and then a ret. Well, usually; as long as it ends up in the right place at the end it can do whatever it wants.
18:10:35 <elliott> impomatic: The initial swap is done by the interpreter loop I pasted.
18:11:21 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:12:19 <catseye> this way you get nearly zero dB loss in the 100-500 KHz range, and only negligble dropout thereafter
18:12:46 -!- FireFly has joined.
18:13:26 <Sgeo> FireFly, Take my love, take my land
18:13:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:14:08 <Vorpal> catseye, wrong channel?
18:14:19 <FireFly> I haven't even seen the series
18:14:47 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I haven't seen the series either
18:15:00 <Sgeo> Vorpal, you're not named after it, though
18:15:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo, uh... His nick is after the insect obviously
18:15:18 <Sgeo> (Yes, I know firefly is not just the name of a series)
18:15:44 <FireFly> I started using this nick long before I knew about the series :P
18:15:48 <catseye> VORPAL THIS IS NEVER THE WRONG CHANNEL
18:17:23 <Sgeo> So, how do I perform esoterica spells?
18:18:01 <Vorpal> Sgeo, usually you write a program in Malbolge that outputs an underload program that perform the task
18:20:57 <catseye> can anyone refresh my memory: the lambdas in FALSE aren't proper closures, right? If I do like [n;] then change the value stored in n, executing that lambda won't give me the original value of n?
18:21:26 <elliott> um, that's unrelated to proper closures
18:21:59 <elliott> since afaik all false vars are global
18:22:16 <elliott> catseye: more importantly, it's not a real false unless you support `... :)
18:22:39 <catseye> "can't properly close over values" then
18:23:18 <elliott> if you don't have local variables, then of course you can't close over values :)
18:23:32 <catseye> then, in my book anyway, you don't have closures
18:23:55 <catseye> but uh, you could close over globals by copying them when constructing the closure
18:24:09 <elliott> you can do it i'm sure! with `!
18:25:03 <elliott> somehow i don't get the impression catseye is rushing to implement ` either
18:25:16 <elliott> dunno why, 68000 emulator in java sounds like fun
18:25:29 <elliott> oh, you'd also have to require amiga OS files
18:25:31 <catseye> Catch sufficiently 68000 emulator in Java.
18:27:24 <catseye> or, 68000-subset emulator in MBR. An unusually not mephitic project.
18:27:31 <catseye> I wonder how many instructions you could do.
18:29:24 <olsner> what's the deal with these "catch sufficiently"?
18:31:55 <elliott> olsner: they're caught sufficiently
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18:32:19 <olsner> hmm, I'm obviously not catching sufficiently
18:33:03 <elliott> try catching more sufficiently
18:33:06 <elliott> an unusually not metphitic task
18:33:17 <elliott> and while you're at it, enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity!
18:33:18 <Vorpal> elliott, wtf is "metphitic"?
18:33:28 <Vorpal> elliott, oh are all these from the same source?
18:33:29 <elliott> olsner: have a nice kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen.
18:33:43 <Vorpal> elliott, then what is the source of the other two=
18:34:12 <Vorpal> elliott, catching sufficiently and metphitic task
18:34:26 <elliott> former is recent esowiki spammer
18:34:43 <catseye> i thought that was the latter
18:35:04 <elliott> it's mephitic, please stop failing at spelling things right in front of you
18:35:14 <catseye> WHY CAN'T I DANCE LIKE THE SNOWFLAKES
18:35:55 <elliott> because society will never accept alternative lifestyles
18:36:01 <olsner> catseye: you're no snowflake, obviously you can't dance like one
18:36:05 <elliott> 2011-04-01.txt:11:41:30: <elliott> (diff) (hist) . . N Talk:Velato/; 05:01 . . (+169) . . 195.211.160.6 (Talk) (Unusually not mephitic forum!!!! Epilogue to bookmarks. To a countless extent wares resource. Greatly much admins)
18:36:13 <Vorpal> <elliott> it's mephitic, please stop failing at spelling things right in front of you <-- I copy pasted your line "<elliott> an unusually not metphitic task"
18:36:37 <olsner> all this discussion from a little typo...
18:36:43 <elliott> Vorpal: ENJOY BEING LOCKED IN YOUR MATRIX OF SOLIDITY, ASSHOLE
18:36:47 <Vorpal> so what does mephitic mean?
18:37:01 <elliott> miasmic: of noxious stench from atmospheric pollution
18:37:01 <elliott> wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
18:38:16 <olsner> sweet, google has word definitions now
18:38:31 <elliott> impomatic: wanna debug my ugly asm? :D
18:38:37 <elliott> olsner: "define:x" has existed for years
18:39:19 <olsner> elliott: true, but I don't want to have to remember having to add "define:"
18:39:36 <olsner> plus you only get crappy definitions with define:x
18:39:37 <elliott> why does this thing refuse to acknowledge mephitic solidity :/
18:39:52 <elliott> h^@¸^Gh^@<8c>^W¼ÿÿ½^@<80>è1^@1öë^G&Ç^D^@^@FFè-^@èF^@èt^@<83>ÿ^@t^Oh^U|<87>åÿe^D<87>åS<87>åëÜ&Ç^D?^GFFëÓ0À1ÿ¹ ^OóªÃ&fÇ^Do^Gk^G<89>ð³ öó@<^X^?^Eöã<89>ÆÃ1öëÚf1Û0äÍ^V&<88>^DF&Æ^D^GF< u^AÃfÁã^E,@$^_^HÃëâf^Oºë^_,00äkÛ
18:39:53 <elliott> ^AÃëÒ¿â|f9^]u^AÃ<83>=^@t^E<83>Ç^Fëð1ÿÃ<87>åè´ÿÃ[ÿ7<87>åÃ[<8f>^G<87>åÃX<87>å_P<87>åÿç<87>å_X<87>åPÿçX&<88>^DF&Æ^D^GF<87>åÃ^D}^^^@^@^@»|òQ^@^@Á|²=i^@Ê|4µ^B^@Ó|^\^@^@^@^@^@^@^@µ|
18:39:55 <elliott> lol how is it still that small
18:39:57 <Vorpal> <olsner> elliott: true, but I don't want to have to remember having to add "define:" <-- the non-crappy ones been around for years too
18:40:31 <impomatic> elliott: I don't mind having a look for a few minutes.
18:40:40 <elliott> impomatic: trust me, you don't want to :)
18:41:04 <elliott> removing that dictionary entry fixed it
18:41:13 <elliott> 4+2 is 6 right? just checking
18:42:33 <impomatic> It can't be more ugly than this : C >R 256 15 16 1799 4 13107 2 21845 R> 4 0 DO TUCK OVER AND -ROT INVERT AND ROT / + LOOP ;
18:42:43 <elliott> ok, sent it in /msg, trade secret after all :P
18:42:46 <elliott> pertinent comment is at the bottom
18:42:48 <olsner> hmm, how would you noun mephitic? mephicity?
18:42:49 <elliott> ; If this is uncommented, then trying to execute @ (= 0) reports "?"
18:42:56 <elliott> olsner: no, that's the city of Mephi
18:43:06 <Vorpal> sometimes youtube fails badly: [download] 62.1% of 133.44M at 63.31k/s ETA 13:37
18:43:14 <elliott> impomatic: also, the other things that are commented out are commented out "permanently"
18:43:16 <Vorpal> note the video is about 6 minutes
18:43:18 <elliott> i.e. there are no debug hacks left in this
18:43:23 <Vorpal> there is no way that buffering could work here
18:43:41 <elliott> but i forgot to uncomment the dictionary entry
18:43:55 <elliott> impomatic: basically I _think_ fword is somehow broken
18:44:09 <Vorpal> <impomatic> It can't be more ugly than this : C >R 256 15 16 1799 4 13107 2 21845 R> 4 0 DO TUCK OVER AND -ROT INVERT AND ROT / + LOOP ; <-- "DO TUCK OVER AND" look a bit like intercal somehow
18:44:21 <Vorpal> PLEASE DO TUCK OVER AND UNDER
18:44:27 <ais523> it's the DO followed by a bunch of caps, I think
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18:48:43 <Sgeo> You're wanted in #esoteric-minecraft
18:49:24 <Vorpal> catseye, what isn't so?
18:49:40 <catseye> anything, doesn't really matter
18:50:39 <Vorpal> catseye, ais523 theory about ghosts probably isn't so :P
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18:58:33 <Gregor> I will summarize: Ghosts are all over the damn place, but they're fucking pussies.
18:58:44 <Gregor> Interpret the last two words in either of the two obvious ways.
19:00:07 <Vorpal> catseye, <ais523> theory: most houses are actually haunted, but by especially shy ghosts who never make their presence known
19:03:16 <catseye> this combines well with my theory that upon death, the human soul remains on earth but becomes remarkably timid
19:07:09 <Gregor> I preferred my statement of the "theory"
19:09:48 <elliott> sam hughes has always had a job ever
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19:11:08 <catseye> "Sam Hughes (January 18, 1824–April 1, 1898) was the last great ophicleide player and one of the greatest who ever played the instrument in its short history."
19:11:31 <elliott> he should set that as his twitter bio :D
19:11:31 <catseye> but now he's too shy and also non-corporeal so can't
19:13:05 <catseye> I had not heard of the ophicleide before. That's quite the instrumet.
19:14:01 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> sam hughes has always had a job ever ← what about the constant moaning about him not being able to get a job in the older entries?
19:14:09 <elliott> after time started beganning
19:14:41 <elliott> Meanwhile, internet commentators cannot resist being irritating snooty douchebags: "If I had a choice, I'd take NO beer. If I didn't have a choice, and was faced with the prospect of spending the rest of my life required to drink beer regularly, I'd probably drown myself in the waves."
19:14:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://twitter.com/qntm. He is forgiven for his slander against J THIS ONE TIME.
19:15:51 <Vorpal> catseye, now I have to google what "ophicleide" is
19:16:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and why isn't it played any more?
19:16:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Because there's only room for so many brass instruments?
19:17:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you like Dvorak music?
19:17:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Suspiciously plausible hypothesis proposed on Metafilter: Simon Pegg and Nick Frost are Sam Vimes and Fred Colon.
19:17:45 <elliott> THAT WAS ALSO PROPOSED ON REDIT
19:17:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh the keyboard layout?
19:18:00 <elliott> ALSO SHUT UP YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE A METAFILTER ACCOUNT
19:20:24 <catseye> <Phantom_Hoover> SAM HUGHES AGREES WITH ME HAH
19:20:57 <elliott> catseye: mathematician, code monkey and hard-science-fiction author, before you possibly ask
19:21:34 <elliott> Gregor: It's like Evolution of Dance—a collection of kicky songs, just substitute dancing for the tribal drumming of a self-crafted PVC pipe instrument. 19 songs in 8 minutes. [more inside]
19:21:38 <elliott> Gregor: EVERYTHING PVC IS GREGOR RELATED
19:23:47 <catseye> I already TOLD you who Sam Hughes was, duh
19:25:23 <elliott> http://www.thinkgeek.com/interests/looflirpa/e8d9/ ;; thinkgeek, always like 17 years behind!
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19:27:37 <lament> ouch http://www.thinkgeek.com/interests/looflirpa/e8b8/
19:27:51 <olsner> I wonder if the images have reached china or some other place stereotypically heartless towards pets and made someone try it for real
19:28:08 <elliott> lament: yeah well, sometimes a cigar is just a light saber
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19:29:02 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure TA-TK likes me :/
19:29:44 <Sgeo> She called me "babes" (outloud, so I don't know if she'd spell it like that) and "boo" and "swee" (I think that was cut off)
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19:31:49 <catseye> I am quite amused by the idea of a shelf in the library coming on to Sgeo.
19:32:12 <catseye> "TL-UA, on the other hand, won't give me the time of day..."
19:32:43 <Sgeo> Oh, she said "my sweet"
19:32:48 <elliott> catseye: Man, you ain't lived til you been with some of dat Dewey decimal material
19:33:30 <catseye> Wait, since when does "I'm pretty sure <name> likes me" deserve to be followed by the emoticon ":/"?
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19:33:56 <Sgeo> catseye, since I've come to the conclusion a while ago that she's a boring idiot.
19:34:01 <elliott> I'm pretty sure Hitler likes me :/
19:34:01 <Phantom_Hoover> catseye, well, a bookshelf would be blind and unable to move, so Sgeo would probably be attracted to it anyway.
19:34:13 <catseye> Well I would think it would quantize to :) or :( pretty soundly in most cases, is all.
19:34:15 <elliott> Like, he's proposed to me and everything :/
19:34:20 <ais523> elliott: now I'm trying to mentally imagine a cross between :/ and !, interrobang-style
19:34:22 <elliott> And threatened to kill me if I don't marry him :/
19:34:29 <elliott> I am sort of neutral about this :/
19:34:46 <elliott> So wait, which one is TA-TK?
19:34:52 <Sgeo> elliott, the "programmer"
19:35:12 <Sgeo> Someone decided that "Other" was not a good enough moniker
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19:38:13 <elliott> HAHHIOAHAHOAIJHAIOJHOEJIJOIJNHSKREJWHDP[Q]
19:38:17 <oklopol> ehheahehehehehehehehehehehaw
19:38:28 <oklopol> t3q4w5yj6ue4tgqrthyetwrqgthekliuolikurjyeuio'p
19:40:12 <Vorpal> <elliott> literlaly loll <-- laughing out loudly loud?
19:40:20 * catseye sticks "t3q4w5yj6ue4tgqrthyetwrqgthekliöäuolikurjyeuio'p" into Google Translate
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19:40:42 <elliott> catseye: its clever for "asljasd"
19:40:42 <catseye> "Maltese to English translation"
19:41:17 <Vorpal> catseye, it means "Piranhas in your hovercraft"
19:41:41 <catseye> "Listen" is not working :(
19:42:03 <elliott> catseye: every letter in that sentence is silent
19:42:24 <catseye> every letter is pronounced as "Google fails to serve content to browser"
19:46:17 <Vorpal> hey I found a new "hat" for Gregor!
19:46:40 <Vorpal> Gregor, http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts-apparel/hats-ties/beac/ and http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts-apparel/hats-ties/b53e/
19:48:06 <catseye> Wierd spec neither defines the size of values on the stack nor what happens if you try to pop an empty stack.
19:48:31 <catseye> wow, thinkgeek really makes me hate being alive
19:48:53 <Gregor> `addquote <catseye> wow, thinkgeek really makes me hate being alive
19:48:58 <HackEgo> 347) <catseye> wow, thinkgeek really makes me hate being alive
19:50:16 <elliott> <catseye> Wierd spec neither defines the size of values on the stack nor what happens if you try to pop an empty stack.
19:50:20 <catseye> olsner: BECAUSE I HAVE A SOUL, OR I DID, BEFORE I STARTED LOOKING AT THESE PRODUCTS
19:50:30 <elliott> catseye: just steal a convenient type of values on the stack from TURKEY BOMB
19:50:40 <olsner> catseye: what's wrong with the products?
19:50:45 <catseye> Also, Befunge-93 doesn't define what happens if you try to p or g outside of the 80x25 area
19:52:40 <catseye> Or if someone else tries that either!
19:53:35 <elliott> catseye: You should implement -98 next ;D
19:53:50 <elliott> Ooh, ooh, or jumping to -1 is exciting, my old language that NOBODY HAS EVER GIVEN ANY LOVE EVER
19:54:10 <ais523> elliott: that was yours?
19:54:29 <Vorpal> <elliott> catseye: You should implement -98 next ;D <-- what about the y coordinate issue you found?
19:55:38 <elliott> I'm still not sure whether it's TC or not
19:56:13 <ais523> I haven't actually looked at it
19:56:15 <ais523> but the name's painful
19:56:21 <Vorpal> <elliott> Ooh, ooh, or jumping to -1 is exciting, my old language that NOBODY HAS EVER GIVEN ANY LOVE EVER <-- which language?
19:56:27 <elliott> Vorpal: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Jumping_to_-1_is_exciting
19:56:30 <elliott> the syntax of that "spec" is
19:56:36 <elliott> command name stack trace -> result
19:56:40 <elliott> stack track = right-most is top of stack
19:56:47 <elliott> # is a pick type instruction thing
19:56:48 <Vorpal> elliott, *that* was that name
19:57:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I searched for "or jumping to -1 is exciting" :P
19:58:13 <catseye> Vorpal: what y coordinate issue?
19:58:17 <Vorpal> blahbot` in #esoteric can run this.
19:58:25 <catseye> I'm implementing Wierd next, btw.
19:58:54 <Vorpal> 1 vector containing the least point which contains a non-space cell, relative to the origin (env)
19:58:54 <Vorpal> 1 vector containing the greatest point which contains a non-space cell, relative to the least point (env)
19:58:54 <Vorpal> These two vectors are useful to give to the o instruction to output the entire program source as a text file.
19:59:02 <Vorpal> catseye, I remember elliott found some issue with that
19:59:07 <Vorpal> I forgot the details. Ask him
19:59:36 <ais523> I like Wierd, but also SNUSP
19:59:37 <Vorpal> elliott, well catseye doesn't know
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20:01:21 <catseye> I...that's one of the things FBBI still fails at. It doesn't shrink those bounds if you overwrite the edges with space.
20:01:42 <catseye> but no one is saying what the issue is
20:01:43 <Vorpal> catseye, I think it was something like the way it was written it meant that it wasn't usable by o in fact.
20:01:45 <elliott> cfunge breaks that too unless you compile it explicitly stating you want it to not be broken
20:01:56 <ais523> slowdown.b98 was designed to completely screw with that effect, IIRC
20:01:56 <elliott> catseye: <Vorpal> 1 vector containing the least point which contains a non-space cell, relative to the origin (env)
20:02:00 <Vorpal> elliott, the default is for "not broken" there
20:02:01 <elliott> catseye: the top-left of the bounding box
20:02:07 <elliott> catseye: that's the least _occupied_ point
20:02:13 <elliott> the bounding box could be much bigger
20:02:23 <elliott> catseye: now, you could say that "these two vectors are useful to give to the o instruction" overrides this, but
20:02:29 <elliott> catseye: (1) "useful" is subjective,
20:02:33 <elliott> catseye: (2) that's in italics,
20:02:41 <elliott> catseye: (3) the other sentences are far more precise than it
20:02:46 <Vorpal> not in http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html#Sysinfo
20:02:49 <elliott> <ais523> slowdown.b98 was designed to completely screw with that effect, IIRC
20:02:54 <elliott> ais523: no, it's just meant to create a huge fungespace
20:02:57 <elliott> so that wrapping takes ages
20:03:04 <ais523> elliott: doesn't it then remove the original program?
20:03:07 <ais523> or was that something else?
20:03:16 <elliott> i dunno, i think it's something to do with bounds though :)
20:03:25 <elliott> that cfunge with bounds shrinking doesn't handle
20:03:35 <elliott> (handle = without taking years)
20:04:02 <elliott> catseye: So is there an official Yoob API for implementing Yoobular Environments? :-P
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20:04:05 <catseye> I don't plan to fix that in FBBI fwiw. The only thing left that I plan to fix is that it reports that { or something "pushes a strange storage offset" or something, without telling me what it is
20:04:27 <catseye> elliott: not yet. API still fluid
20:04:40 <elliott> catseye: bah. i'd prefer you locked it into a matrix of solidity!!!!
20:04:52 <elliott> also are there plans to make the 2d editors more... 2d friendly
20:05:23 <elliott> at least make them work overwriting, not inserting?
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20:06:15 <Vorpal> <catseye> I don't plan to fix that in FBBI fwiw. The only thing left that I plan to fix is that it reports that { or something "pushes a strange storage offset" or something, without telling me what it is <-- "without telling me what it is" is *very* typical of mycology
20:06:43 <catseye> The main purpose, for now, is to showcase the languages. If you are doing serious editing of programs in the languages, you're free to use an offline editor and copy and paste. (If you want to save your work, you have to do this anyway.)
20:07:42 <catseye> OK, I have a rudimentary implementation of Wierd, completely untested. I guess that'll be my next step, but... later
20:08:04 <elliott> Can you up the maximum speed, too? I'm watching this particularly slow program churn. :p
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20:08:07 <catseye> And if there's a Befunge-111, y will reflect >:)
20:08:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:08:17 <catseye> elliott: it's on the todo list
20:08:19 <elliott> Befunge-111 should just specify everything :P
20:08:24 <elliott> FILE IO IS MANDATORY ... or preferably nonexistent
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20:08:53 <catseye> the spec should just be an implementation... in some horribly underspec'ed language
20:09:26 <elliott> yoob's rng sucks. this befunge program will never end.
20:09:28 <catseye> yes. without giving a version number, too
20:09:36 <elliott> make it rely on python 1.5 quirks
20:09:36 <catseye> you're watching anagram, huh
20:09:47 <elliott> i modified hello to have some stupid directions and then a bunch of ?s
20:09:49 <catseye> no? that one takes forever for me
20:09:54 <elliott> so i'm waiting for it to go back to real code
20:09:56 <catseye> i'm using Java's stock RNG, blame it
20:09:57 <elliott> rather than just dancing around the ?s
20:10:05 <elliott> that's why i want a higher max speed :-P
20:10:16 <catseye> ah, idea: allow you to specify a sequence to be used by the RNG...
20:10:29 * elliott puts a @ in a lone square on the board, surrounded by ?s
20:10:33 <elliott> GOOD LUCK TERMINATING, PROGRAM
20:13:53 <elliott> catseye: post hitting @, buttons do not allow me to restart program. they act as if it's still running but stop is greyed out. weird.
20:13:56 <elliott> but i can edit and press done to fix.
20:14:00 <elliott> or maybe i'm just sleep-deprived
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20:16:23 <elliott> catseye: also you might want to reverse the stack display
20:16:28 <elliott> so that you don't have to scroll when the stack gets big
20:18:31 <elliott> it holds the @ until it eats up all the stack :)
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20:19:20 <catseye> reset should totally work after @... if it doesn't then, eh
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20:34:30 <elliott> catseye: i can't seem to copy output
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20:36:50 <elliott> hmm, start does nothing, stop does nothing, both leave the program running :)
20:37:01 <elliott> run makes it go twice as fast
20:37:12 <catseye> yeah, probably started two execution threads
20:37:33 <catseye> i have no idea how it gets into the state where that's possible
20:37:48 <elliott> so, strong-typed languages, eh
20:38:17 <elliott> no specifically i'm now referring to the fact that i can't edit befunge-93 without the applet blanking :D
20:38:35 * elliott tries going through an example rather than the about screen
20:38:50 <catseye> ... don't use the about screen, then
20:39:04 <elliott> catseye: then why does it enable the edit button!
20:40:16 <elliott> catseye: btw i think that in -93, ps and gs to x,y coords should be moduloed
20:40:24 <elliott> at least that makes random programs do more fun things ;D
20:41:08 <catseye> i think i have a headache :/
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20:47:52 <Vorpal> <elliott> run makes it go twice as fast <-- that is so awesome
20:48:09 <olsner> starts out in walking mode, until you press run
20:48:42 <Vorpal> <catseye> yeah, probably started two execution threads <-- shouldn't that cause sync issues?
20:49:37 <Vorpal> <catseye> i think i have a headache :/ <-- wait, did you try to implement ais523's Feather?
20:50:10 <ais523> Vorpal: DON'T INFECT HIM TOO!
20:50:20 <Sgeo> Featherfeatherfeather
20:51:18 <Vorpal> ais523, you using caps like that feels so weird. Almost as much as if fizzie would...
20:53:29 <Vorpal> dwarf fortress has both "sandy loam" and "loamy sand"... I'm not sure what the difference is as such.
20:54:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Sandy loam is predominantly loam, loamy sand predominantly sand.
20:54:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, both however work the same when it comes to in game mechanics
20:55:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: OH NO, IS THIS WEIRD?
20:55:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, well it fails, since it is triggered by this specific instance
20:55:36 <Vorpal> I mean, you doing it naturally
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20:58:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: 2009-03-09 01:21:53 <fizzie> elliott: WATER MEMORY.
20:58:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:59:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, that was more than two years ago!
20:59:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, it proves my point
20:59:18 <fizzie> 2011-01-22 14:15:17 <fizzie> PURE MADNESSNESS
20:59:19 <olsner> Vorpal: BUT THE WATER REMEMBERS
20:59:22 <oklopol> yes you have grown as a person
20:59:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, you don't do it very often though
20:59:42 <elliott> fizzie: you fabricated that quote. what pure madnessness.
20:59:54 <elliott> fizzie: QUICK HOW MANY ALL-CAPS STATEMENTS HAVE I MADE
21:00:06 <oklopol> <fizzie> I WOULD NEVER FABRICATE A QUOTE
21:00:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: There are several instances of one or two full-uppercase things but very few that would have nothing else.
21:00:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is the nothing else bit that counts
21:00:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, a nick is allowed
21:00:49 <elliott> `addquote <olsner> it is from 2002 though, I was younger then
21:00:53 <HackEgo> 348) <olsner> it is from 2002 though, I was younger then
21:01:07 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, when did he say that
21:01:08 <HackEgo> 174) <nooga> i think of languages as tools, there is no holy grail of languages <olsner> even if there's no holy grail, that doesn't mean cups of crap is ok \ 221) <olsner> DAMN YOU, I'm leaving <Vorpal> olsner, FINALLY NOTHING BETWEEN ME AND WORLD DOMINATION! \ 237) <tswett> elliott: just to bring you up to speed, you are
21:01:21 <elliott> 15:44:47 <elliott> `addquote <olsner> it is from 2002 though, I was younger then
21:01:34 <Vorpal> "<Vorpal> olsner, FINALLY NOTHING BETWEEN ME AND WORLD DOMINATION!" <-- wait what?
21:02:29 <HackEgo> 37) <oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. \ 39) <oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true <oklopol> should put that on my todo list \ 42) <oklopol> i'm my dad's unborn sister \ 55) <oklopol> GregorR: are you talking about ehird's virginity or your soda beer? \ 67) <oklopol>
21:02:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9627
21:03:41 <elliott> 223) <oklopol> well i just ate some stuff and watched family guy <oklopol> and i own a piano <oklopol> and i'm not wearing socks
21:04:35 <Vorpal> 110) <fax> oklopol geez what are you doing here <oklokok> ...i don't know :< <oklokok> i actually ate until now, although i guess i also did other things...
21:04:43 <Vorpal> elliott, who was fax now again?
21:04:55 <elliott> soupdragon quantumEd MissPiggy j-invariant etc. etc. etc.
21:05:04 <elliott> a chance to use the best latin
21:05:05 <oklopol> i thought there were many quotes of me
21:05:12 <elliott> oklopol: because yours are all the best
21:05:21 <oklopol> elliott: so that was not all?
21:05:22 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10188
21:05:32 <elliott> oklopol: that was all. they were best.
21:05:35 <Vorpal> elliott, "348) <olsner> it is from 2002 though, I was younger then" is there
21:05:38 <elliott> `pastequotes ehird|elliott|alise
21:05:40 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1469
21:05:50 <elliott> i'm the master of the quotes
21:05:54 <Vorpal> elliott, the issue is that `quote 2002 looks for *quote number 2002*
21:05:54 <oklopol> but that's so few, i thought there'd be at least 10 more
21:06:01 <HackEgo> 348) <olsner> it is from 2002 though, I was younger then
21:06:10 <elliott> oklopol: well keep saying funny things
21:06:20 <elliott> 19) <oerjan> ehird has gone insane, clearly.
21:06:41 <elliott> `pastequotes <ehird|elliott|alise>
21:06:42 <oklopol> i guess i'll have to get depressed another day
21:06:42 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27220
21:06:43 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah it doesn't seem funny at all. Just a matter of fact. :P
21:06:46 <elliott> (only want quotes actually directed at me)
21:06:55 <elliott> anyone mind if i remove it, we have Standards
21:06:58 <elliott> oklopol: does depressed=funny?
21:07:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:07:10 <elliott> `pastequotes <(ehird|elliott|alise)>
21:07:11 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10749
21:07:20 <oklopol> actually i thought depressed = not funny, but then i realized oerjan is all about jokes
21:07:26 <elliott> `pastequotes <(ehird|elliott|alise)>
21:07:27 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.2939
21:07:28 -!- azaq23 has joined.
21:07:31 <oklopol> not that he's all that funny
21:07:31 <HackEgo> 37) <oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. \ 39) <oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true <oklopol> should put that on my todo list \ 42) <oklopol> i'm my dad's unborn sister \ 55) <oklopol> GregorR: are you talking about ehird's virginity or your soda beer? \ 67) <oklopol>
21:07:41 <elliott> `pastequotes \<(ehird|elliott|alise)\>
21:07:42 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13301
21:07:46 <Vorpal> <oklopol> not that he's all that funny <-- is he depressed?
21:07:48 <HackEgo> 85) <@Lawlabee> Why does Monday start at 10PM on Sunday? \ 94) <Dylan> hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows <Lawlabee> 'cuz it's pretty awesome. \ 95) [Warrigal] `addquote <Dylan> hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows <Lawlabee> 'cuz it's pretty awesome. [Lawlabee] Warrigal: :( \ 112) <Warrigal> Making a small shrine to Lawlabee
21:07:52 <elliott> tswett: protip pastequotes
21:08:02 <elliott> `quote <(ehird|elliott|alise)>
21:08:06 <elliott> `quote <(ehird|elliott|alise).*>
21:08:12 <HackEgo> 112) <Warrigal> Making a small shrine to Lawlabee in my basement is something I should get around to at some point.
21:08:14 <elliott> `quote <ehird>|<elliott>|<alise>
21:08:24 -!- sftp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:08:37 <Vorpal> <oklopol> No output. <-- you what
21:08:39 <oklopol> i should prolly go to work
21:08:46 <elliott> oisdjosidjfoisjfsjfosijdfoisjdfiojdofjisf
21:08:52 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/quote
21:09:04 <tswett> Whuff whuff whuff wharrgarbl.
21:09:09 <HackEgo> babies \ bin \ bluhbluh \ env \ foo \ paste \ ps \ quine \ quotes \ test \ test.c \ tmpdir.19865
21:09:11 <elliott> `run egrep -i "<(elliott|alise|ehird)>" quotes
21:09:12 <HackEgo> <ehird> so i can only conclude that it is flawed, or the world is utterly bonkers \ IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist vollig BONKERS. Gegrusset seist du der Fuhrer Hitler! \ SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO):
21:09:21 <elliott> `run allquotes | egrep -i "<(elliott|alise|ehird)>" | paste
21:09:23 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4003
21:09:39 <HackEgo> addquote \ allquotes \ botsnack \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ delquote \ esolang \ etymology \ fuck \ google \ imdb \ json \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ penis \ ping \ quine \ quote \ quotes \ rec \ roll \ runasperl \ runfor \ rungcc \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate
21:09:47 <HackEgo> I'm a program. I don't /have/ genitals.
21:09:47 <Vorpal> elliott, why didn't it work?
21:09:55 -!- sftp has joined.
21:09:58 <Vorpal> elliott, should be debugged?
21:10:47 <oklopol> tswett: babies is little human
21:11:06 <tswett> I'm not sure `cat actually works.
21:11:27 <fizzie> elliott: I think you get a syntax error from if [ "$(($1+0))" = "$1" ] .
21:11:40 <Vorpal> Gregor, why doesn't whatis work?
21:12:00 <fizzie> `run bin/quote '<elliott>' 2>&1
21:12:01 <HackEgo> bin/quote: line 3: <elliott>+0: syntax error: operand expected (error token is "<elliott>+0") \ /usr/bin/nl: write error: Broken pipe
21:12:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, no man pages installed?
21:12:14 <elliott> fizzie: WELL MAYBE YOU SHOULD FIX IT SMARTARSE :|
21:12:20 <elliott> fizzie: (thx for finally finding the elusive bug)
21:12:31 <elliott> fizzie: I propose "sed", it's how I wrote the thing after all. Well, that and echo.
21:12:50 <elliott> Mayhaps $(("$1"+0)) would suffice?
21:13:02 <Vorpal> why do you need the +0?
21:13:47 <elliott> `run echo $(("nozzles >-4"+0)
21:13:48 <elliott> `run echo $(("nozzles >-4"+0))
21:13:52 <elliott> `run echo $(("nozzles >-4"+0)) 2>&1
21:13:58 <elliott> `run bash -c 'echo $(("nozzles >-4"+0))' 2>&1
21:13:59 <HackEgo> /bin/bash: "nozzles >-4"+0: syntax error: operand expected (error token is ""nozzles >-4"+0")
21:14:14 <fizzie> I don't actually know how it manages to work for most non-numbers.
21:14:19 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/quote
21:14:49 <Vorpal> elliott, use bash regex match
21:15:17 <elliott> `run sed -i 's/if [ "$(($1+0))" = "$1" ]; then/if expr "$1" + 0 2>/dev/null; then/' bin/quote
21:15:37 <elliott> `run sed -i 's/if \[ "$(($1+0))" = "$1" \]; then/if expr "$1" + 0 2>/dev/null; then/' bin/quote
21:15:52 <elliott> `run sed -i 's/if \[ "$\(\($1+0\)\)" = "$1" \]; then/if expr "$1" + 0 2>/dev/null; then/' bin/quote
21:15:53 <Vorpal> elliott, you fail at sed
21:15:56 <oklopol> what if i had like an epileptic fit and tried to get help here, i bet you bastards would just let me die
21:16:01 <Vorpal> elliott, $ needs to be escaped
21:16:24 <elliott> `run sed -i 's/ if.*/ if expr "$1" + 0 2>/dev/null; then/' bin/quote
21:16:46 <elliott> `run sed -i 's! if.*! if expr "$1" + 0 2>/dev/null; then!' bin/quote
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21:17:01 <elliott> `run bin/quote '<elliott>' 2>&1
21:17:02 <HackEgo> 229) <elliott> Vorpal loves the sodomy. <Vorpal> elliott, sure why not \ 230) <elliott> [...] ALWAYS OPEN TO TRYING NEW THINGS. \ 231) <elliott> So it's not exactly trivial. [Later about same thing] <elliott> It's a trivial C program :P \ 239) <elliott> ONLY GOOD QUOTES PLEASE! AND NO FAKE ONES EITHER! \ 240) * pikhq sticks
21:17:09 <Gregor> elliott: I love your HackEgo-editing style.
21:17:11 <HackEgo> 231) <elliott> So it's not exactly trivial. [Later about same thing] <elliott> It's a trivial C program :P
21:17:24 <elliott> Gregor: It makes me feel so manly, 'cuz you know what, I could do that on an actual teletypewriter.
21:17:31 <elliott> Well, with a live "cat" window :P
21:18:27 <ais523> elliott: it's trivial, but not exactly trivial
21:18:40 <elliott> let's find out how profane we are!
21:18:50 <elliott> `pastequotes shit|fuck|crap|dammit|damn
21:18:51 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8277
21:18:58 <elliott> (Worst list of top-of-head curses ever.)
21:19:03 <Vorpal> I wonder if you could get a current going in a ring shaped super-conductor
21:19:06 <elliott> answer: not as profane as i thought
21:19:49 <elliott> 280) <Vorpal> ooh I want to see ehird pole dancing <ehird> I think that would be illegal. <Vorpal> oh you are right <Vorpal> damn :/
21:19:49 <elliott> i still have no idea what that was about
21:20:02 <elliott> also, i think the best feature of my quote system is that whenever you delete a quote
21:20:08 <elliott> every quote after it gets renumbered
21:20:10 <elliott> it's wonderfully confusing!
21:20:16 <Vorpal> elliott, that is like the worst thing
21:20:28 <elliott> it's the most Unixy way to implement it ;DDD
21:20:39 <Vorpal> elliott, lets agree on the middle ground
21:20:49 <ais523> why do they even have numbers?
21:21:00 <elliott> ais523: umm...because...err...fuck you
21:21:06 <elliott> mostly for seeing the whole thing in search results i think :D
21:21:18 <oklopol> i read that as "why do they have even numbers"
21:21:25 <oklopol> thought it was a philosophical question
21:21:42 <oklopol> i guess it could've been philosophical as it is
21:21:52 <olsner> why even do they numbers have?
21:23:14 <elliott> ais523: quick, say something funny
21:23:32 <ais523> err, I can't think of anything funny to say right now
21:23:41 <ais523> but I'll retroactively edit the above line to be funny when I get Feather working
21:23:52 <elliott> ais523: i'm going to addquote that now
21:24:00 <elliott> ais523: soon you will learn not to say unfunny things!
21:24:03 <oklopol> my feather joke the other day was way better than that
21:24:08 <ais523> oklopol: indeed, that isn't funny
21:24:10 <elliott> `addquote <elliott> ais523: quick, say something funny <oklopol> something funny hagrea:D <oklopol> can'tä sopt laughitn
21:24:11 <HackEgo> 349) <elliott> ais523: quick, say something funny <oklopol> something funny hagrea:D <oklopol> can'tä sopt laughitn
21:24:14 <ais523> but it will be eventually!
21:24:16 <elliott> another oklopol quote -- aiee!
21:24:18 <elliott> `addquote <elliott> ais523: quick, say something funny <oklopol> something funny hagrea:D <oklopol> can'tä sopt laughitn
21:24:19 <HackEgo> 349) <elliott> ais523: quick, say something funny <oklopol> something funny hagrea:D <oklopol> can'tä sopt laughitn
21:24:28 <elliott> `addquote <elliott> ais523: quick, say something funny <oklopol> something funny hagrea:D <oklopol> can'tä sopt laughitn
21:24:28 <HackEgo> 349) <elliott> ais523: quick, say something funny <oklopol> something funny hagrea:D <oklopol> can'tä sopt laughitn
21:24:47 <Gregor> Argh, what have you done here
21:25:07 <elliott> Gregor: oklopol uses latin-1, BUT
21:25:11 <elliott> I retyped out the second try by hand
21:25:29 <elliott> `addquote <elliott> ais523: quick, say something funny <oklopol> something funny hagrea:D <oklopol> can'tä sopt laughitn
21:25:30 <HackEgo> 349) <elliott> ais523: quick, say something funny <oklopol> something funny hagrea:D <oklopol> can'tä sopt laughitn
21:25:47 <Gregor> That's odd, the repo seems to be fine >_>
21:25:58 <oklopol> okay that thing is getting funnier by the minute
21:26:03 <elliott> <Gregor> I didn't just override that quote because I hate oklopol <_<
21:26:23 <elliott> <Gregor> And I'm not just doing this out of my badly-concealed lust for him >_>
21:26:42 <Vorpal> <elliott> <Gregor> I didn't just override that quote because I hate oklopol <_< <-- whaaat?
21:26:46 <elliott> oklopol: look at the kinda things gregor says in teh /msgss! ^^
21:26:48 <Vorpal> you made that up right?
21:26:54 <elliott> and not the lust parts either
21:27:19 <elliott> and i use a vt100 so i can't take a screenshot SORRY
21:27:20 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't believe it, until confirmed from Gregor
21:27:29 <elliott> like he'd admit his true desires :(
21:27:34 <elliott> when all this time he's learned to bottle them away
21:27:37 <oklopol> you don't believe Gregor wants to have sex with me?
21:27:50 <elliott> yeah doesn't every straight male want to have sex with oklopol
21:27:55 <Gregor> `run echo nicode! > test
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21:28:13 <elliott> `run echo bork bork bоrk >test
21:28:27 <elliott> `run echo bork bork bork >test
21:28:35 <elliott> Gregor: JUST FUCKING WITH YOU, that was a Cyrillic o
21:28:47 <oklopol> actually i do know a straight male who wants to have sex with me
21:28:50 <Gregor> OH, I know what the issue is.
21:29:01 <elliott> oklopol: he's just (hetero+oklo)sexual amirite
21:29:52 <Gregor> `run echo nicode! > test
21:29:58 <oklopol> i haven't asked in detail, because he's a random internet dude
21:30:34 <elliott> `addquote <elliott> ais523: quick, say something funny <oklopol> something funny hagrea:D <oklopol> can'tä sopt laughitn
21:30:35 <HackEgo> 349) <elliott> ais523: quick, say something funny <oklopol> something funny hagrea:D <oklopol> can'tä sopt laughitn
21:31:21 <elliott> that happens a lot with inaccurate files
21:31:23 <Vorpal> and that second counter is counting up. At second rate.
21:31:38 <Vorpal> elliott, the file must be broken
21:31:40 <elliott> i think flac _does_ include such precise information, but it can get messed up
21:32:05 <elliott> Vorpal: well vlc sucks and stuff :)
21:32:22 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah re-encoding atm
21:32:44 <Vorpal> elliott, mplayer is rather annoying. And totem doesn't play a lot of stuff
21:32:44 <elliott> incidentally arch seem to have made their first good decision lately :)
21:32:51 <elliott> to not consider switching to the libav fork
21:33:01 <Vorpal> elliott, what libav fork?
21:33:08 <elliott> background for those who haven't been following: a group of ffmpeg devs were unhappy with the maintainer
21:33:14 <elliott> so they literally tried to perform a coup d'etat
21:33:21 <elliott> they changed the repo url, the project leaders, etc. on the website
21:33:23 <elliott> from underneath the maintainer
21:33:28 <elliott> this understandably cause a lot of upset
21:33:37 <Vorpal> what did the maintainer do?
21:33:39 <elliott> so after about two months of the hostility of two factions sharing the same list
21:33:49 <elliott> the coup d'etatters (THAT'S A WORD) decided to "rename" ffmpeg
21:33:59 <elliott> so they posted a name saying our "new release" is under the "new name" libav
21:34:04 <elliott> then -- and this is where it gets insane --
21:34:10 <elliott> they say the mailing list is being "renamed and moved"
21:34:14 <Vorpal> wait, it is already insane
21:34:14 <elliott> and so the ffmpeg list will be "shut down shortly"
21:34:18 <elliott> and you will be automatically subscribed to the libav list
21:34:24 <elliott> that ffmpeg list was STILL BEING USED by the original maintainers
21:34:24 <Vorpal> elliott, ... that's silly
21:34:32 <elliott> Vorpal: more than silly, it's childish and bullshit
21:34:37 <elliott> a gentoo dev was one of the forkers, FWIW
21:34:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I NO LONGER USE GENTOO!
21:34:51 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway, fabrice bellard controls the DNS and so handed it back to the original maintainer
21:35:02 <Vorpal> elliott, that name is familiar
21:35:08 <elliott> umm, qemu and ffmpeg founder
21:35:31 <elliott> it seems like the original maintainer caused some problems but at most that justifies a fork, not a failed hostile takeover followed by trying to systematically shut down the original project's resources
21:35:40 <Vorpal> olsner, yes he is one of those awesome guys. Like djb
21:35:41 <elliott> olsner: also discoverer of bellard's formula for pi
21:35:55 <elliott> (wp says 43% faster than BBP)
21:35:59 <olsner> elliott: lucky guy, discovering something that had his name on it!
21:36:04 <elliott> also multiple time IOCCC winner
21:36:59 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway yeah, there was a thread on the arch forums (i idly browse every now and then out of morbid curiosity) and one of the devs basically said "i don't like forks so we're not going to consider it" :P
21:37:12 <elliott> thus, i eagerly look forward to arch replacing xorg with xfree86
21:37:32 <Vorpal> elliott, what was the original dispute about?
21:37:44 <elliott> Vorpal: the maintainer being a pain about applying patches basically
21:37:48 <elliott> single point of control, etc.
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21:38:00 <Vorpal> elliott, ah... Could be time to fork yes, but in a less childish way
21:38:03 <elliott> but i don't find it very relevant; i can't really sympathise with them considering the childishness
21:38:16 <elliott> Vorpal: afaict they didn't even bother trying to have a serious discussion about it first
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21:39:38 <elliott> Vorpal: seriously though, as a GENTOO USER (;D;D;D), why did they drop support for static linking>
21:39:49 <elliott> if i could tell gentoo to statically link everything with musl i might even use it :-D
21:40:02 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I have no idea
21:40:05 <elliott> http://www.etalabs.net/musl/
21:40:12 <Vorpal> elliott, besides wasn't it just a few packages that supported it?
21:40:26 <elliott> Vorpal: i think you used to be able to build a whole static system?
21:40:39 <elliott> anyway gentoo doesn't really have any merits if you can't control every variable of the system :)
21:40:51 <Vorpal> elliott, with some CFLAGS hacking probably
21:41:01 <elliott> (considering that "this optimisation flag" vs. "this other optimisation flag" doesn't even count as a variable due to being irrelevant)
21:41:05 <Vorpal> elliott, there were some static use-flags before I know
21:41:14 <elliott> (every (32-bit x86) debian package runs on a 386!)
21:41:27 <elliott> (don't see people going around claiming debian is slow :))
21:41:33 <elliott> though maybe they do and i just haven't run into them
21:41:39 <Vorpal> elliott, libc comes in multiple variants though
21:41:43 <olsner> don't those people all use gentoo?
21:42:08 <elliott> just libc6-i386 here, oh wait this is the 64-bit repo
21:42:14 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, cmov one
21:42:15 <elliott> the kernel comes in multiple flavours too
21:42:30 <Vorpal> elliott, well yeah that's debian...
21:42:32 <elliott> hmm, there might be a 686 too
21:42:49 <Vorpal> elliott, and some stuff do CPU detection. Like mplayer
21:43:05 <Vorpal> elliott, point is that cpu generation only matters in a handful of places
21:43:13 <elliott> hmm, "autoconf standard" is -O2 -g right?
21:43:20 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no idea
21:43:34 <elliott> i guess 90% of debian is -O2 -g -march=i386 then :)
21:43:49 <Vorpal> elliott, *probably* also -mtune=generic these days
21:44:03 <Vorpal> elliott, which helps to some degree
21:44:13 <Gregor> Actually I thought they made a dangerous decision to go all the way to i486 at some point :P
21:44:14 <elliott> imo -Os -march=i386 -mtune=generic would be a better choice nowadays
21:44:29 <ais523> don't -march and -mtune contradict?
21:44:29 <elliott> (nobody uses the debugging info, and the space savings from not having it + the savings from -Os = cache loves you)
21:44:32 <Vorpal> elliott, probably -march=i686 actually
21:44:41 <elliott> Vorpal: i meant, without breaking compatibility
21:44:47 <Vorpal> elliott, the debugging info is split out into separate debugging packages
21:44:48 <Gregor> ais523: Not all -march options conflict with all -mtune options.
21:44:49 <ais523> as in, -mtune implies "portable to all processors in the group"
21:44:52 <Vorpal> <ais523> don't -march and -mtune contradict? <-- no
21:44:53 <ais523> Gregor: hmm, interesting
21:44:56 <elliott> Gregor: well it's still advertised as i386 and you can still install a 386 kernel
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21:45:01 <elliott> so i doubt they made that GIGANTIC LEAP
21:45:04 <Gregor> elliott: Well, cancel that then.
21:45:23 <Vorpal> elliott, debugging info for libc = invaluable
21:45:40 <elliott> but apart from like... emacs
21:45:41 <ais523> I like having debug info around
21:45:45 <elliott> nobody runs system binaries under gdb
21:45:55 <Vorpal> I'd hate to run emacs under gdb
21:46:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I have literally no idea what the overriding plot threads have been since... forever.
21:46:02 <elliott> Vorpal: some people do it 100% of the time
21:46:07 <elliott> ais523: is debugging info stored inline with code, or is it separated?
21:46:13 <elliott> if the latter, then I guess it won't affect the cache
21:46:20 <elliott> then -Os -g would be the best choice, I guess
21:46:24 <Vorpal> elliott, separate files even these days
21:46:34 <elliott> Vorpal: that might be the best idea, have -dbg packages
21:46:34 <Vorpal> ubuntu does it that way at least
21:46:37 <elliott> that install into /usr/dbg
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21:46:56 <Vorpal> elliott, paths look like /usr/lib/debug/bin/bash iirc
21:47:01 <elliott> * Phantom_Hoover (~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486) has joined #esoteric
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21:47:18 <elliott> Vorpal: right, well, that's what you get for refusing to extend the fhs
21:47:59 <elliott> IF WE MAKE /USR/DBG HOW WILL THE ENTERPRISES EVER TRUST THE UBUNTUS AS THE STANDARDS COMPLIANCES
21:49:19 <elliott> so what IS it with airline food^W^Wtiling wms
21:49:59 <ais523> airline food's been pretty good IME
21:50:12 <ais523> although admittedly I've only been on four flights, and get very annoyed at having to use plane travel
21:50:30 <ais523> and in no case did I pay for the flight myself, if I'd had to do that I'd have refused outright
21:50:46 <ais523> did Gregor give up on libc.so?
21:50:59 <Gregor> I refuse to speak of it in this channel.
21:51:08 <Gregor> Well, attempt to refuse anyway.
21:51:20 <olsner> great way to fail not speaking of it :D
21:52:01 <Vorpal> Gregor, did you win libm.so?
21:52:09 <elliott> ais523: i didn't say anything about airline food!
21:52:21 <Gregor> I refuse to speak of the DETAILS OF THE AUCTION, not the domain itself X_X
21:52:27 <Gregor> Vorpal: Didn't even try.
21:52:41 <elliott> (Binary search setup phase)
21:53:03 <Gregor> It is a numeric, integer value greater than 0.
21:53:19 <Gregor> "Numeric" is redundant here, and "integer greater than 0" could be replaced by "whole number" :P
21:56:41 <Vorpal> elliott, musl looks great
21:57:46 <elliott> Vorpal: only C.UTF-8 locale support now, but that's being worked on
21:58:08 <Vorpal> missing C99 math functions and POSIX priority scheduling options. Damn
21:58:33 <olsner> bah, why would anyone need anything else than C.UTF-8 locale
21:58:47 <elliott> Vorpal: C99 math is being worked on :P
21:59:03 <elliott> Vorpal: Surprisingly enough some things actually use it X-D
21:59:09 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway the locale stuff is a show stopper
21:59:10 <elliott> e.g. an mpfr testcase I think refused to compile becuase of the lack of...
21:59:17 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't want silly C locale date
21:59:37 <elliott> Vorpal: No it's not a show-stopper.
21:59:41 <elliott> It's an incredibly minor thing that is being added.
21:59:57 <elliott> Yes, well, 3 April 2011 3 April 2011 3 April 2011.
22:00:19 <Vorpal> sön apr 3 23:59:41 CEST 2011
22:00:33 <elliott> Yes. Because seeing "3 April 2011" instead of "sön apr 3" affects your entire computing experience.
22:00:42 <Vorpal> that is very weird order too I think
22:01:00 <elliott> Yes it is, which is why that locale sucks :
22:01:05 <Gregor> DAY OF WEEK IS IRRELEVANT. LITTLE ENDIAN IS IRRELEVANT. SUBMIT TO THE ISO.
22:01:25 <Vorpal> tLC_ADDRESS="sv_SE.UTF-8"
22:01:26 <Vorpal> LC_TELEPHONE="sv_SE.UTF-8"
22:01:26 <Vorpal> LC_MEASUREMENT="sv_SE.UTF-8"
22:01:31 <Vorpal> I wonder where those are actually used
22:01:41 <Vorpal> LC_PAPER="sv_SE.UTF-8"
22:01:49 <Vorpal> presumably that selects A4?
22:02:01 <Gregor> In Sweden they use Q12 instead of A4.
22:02:10 <Gregor> It's measured in fractions of furlongs.
22:02:18 <Vorpal> Gregor, per fortnight!
22:02:22 <elliott> also anyone who sets LC_foo to get /error messages/ and the like in non-English is clearly in need of institutionalisation more than locale support
22:02:25 <Vorpal> yes the speed of the papoer
22:02:34 <Gregor> The width is conventionally given in terms of oxtails, but standardized as fractions of furlongs.
22:03:27 <elliott> =en_GB.UTF8 or something would provide more reasonable output
22:03:42 <Gregor> elliott: =C guarantees that the bug reports are in the same language that the author wrote it in.
22:03:43 <Vorpal> elliott, I wish C.UTF8 worked with glibc
22:03:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I do not want messed up sorting
22:04:00 <elliott> Gregor: "I'm sorry, you said -ise instead of -ize, WONTFIX"
22:04:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I want CASE SENSITIVE sort
22:04:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Define messed up...
22:04:11 <elliott> ASCIIbetal isn't logical :P
22:04:19 <Vorpal> elliott, I prefer that one!
22:04:28 <Gregor> elliott: More like "I am not having good with English, can please error messages with original Portuguese thanks."
22:04:59 <Vorpal> Gregor, I would go insane at a program doing that!
22:04:59 <elliott> Gregor: That's a great argument NOT to use =C, I don't fucking know Portuguese :P
22:05:17 <Gregor> elliott: Also, I wouldn't WONTFIX a bug for -ise instead of -ize, but I would for zed instead of zee :P
22:05:35 <elliott> Really though, a FOSS project with a lead developer not competent in English is also known as a trainwreck :P
22:05:54 <elliott> Yeah yeah cultural imperialism, I don't give a shit, the Bible was right, language divisions are a curse.
22:06:03 <ais523> Gregor: pls to change "prized" to "prizee"?
22:06:29 <ais523> as opposed to "prised", ofc
22:06:51 <elliott> you can prizee my spellings from my cold dead hands
22:11:29 <Vorpal> elliott, you realise valgrind won't work on statically linked code?
22:11:43 <Vorpal> or at least I don't think it will
22:11:50 <elliott> Anyway I plan to dynlink with musl for kitten
22:12:02 <elliott> he's working on a dynamic loader that's embedded in the libc itself
22:12:38 <Vorpal> elliott, why not work on @ instead?
22:12:47 <elliott> who said i was working on kitten
22:13:21 <elliott> can hardly work on @ if i don't have a nice tiling wm can i
22:13:39 <Vorpal> elliott, okay so write one then
22:13:51 <elliott> i thought you said i shouldn't work on kitten
22:14:02 <Vorpal> elliott, oh but run it on ubuntu :P
22:14:10 <elliott> anyway i'm going to try out i3 soon. maybe
22:23:18 <zzo38> How many bits would you need if you were doing fourier transforms with fixed point?
22:25:25 <ais523> depends on how accurate you'd want the answer to be
22:26:50 <zzo38> It should be accurate enough that if you do forward and then reverse on a picture, you should get the same picture, or one very close to the same.
22:27:40 <ais523> zzo38: same as the number of bits as the picture, then
22:28:03 <ais523> e.g. if the picture uses 8-bit color, you need 8-bit transforms
22:29:01 <zzo38> Would that be enough? If you are doing real/imaginary instead of amplitude/phase, I mean.
22:29:39 <ais523> you use a different algorithm, I think
22:29:53 <ais523> look up about algorithsm for doing discrete cosine transforms
22:29:58 <ais523> which is the fixed-point version of the fft
22:30:54 <zzo38> I know I have found the code for two-dimensional FFT, it uses floating point anthough square root is the only special function used, the others are only multiplication and division.
22:31:13 <fizzie> I vaguely recall that fixed-point FFT needs some care in scaling the numbers during the processing, to avoid large inaccuracies.
22:33:37 <zzo38> METAFONT has careful division to ensure not overflow in a 32-bit fixed point, TeXnicard uses the same algorithm but for 64-bit numbers instead.
22:34:03 <zzo38> In the FFT I found, the square root is only used for the sa = sqrt((1.0 - ca) / 2.0);
22:34:04 <olsner> I guess if anyone's done jpeg en/decoding on architectures without floating point, they'll have solved this problem
22:34:08 <zzo38> and ca = sqrt((1.0 + ca) / 2.0);
22:34:36 <olsner> or DCT anyway, not necessarily FFT
22:35:52 <zzo38> And the value of sa and ca are initialized ca=-1.0 and sa=0.0 with nothing else ever changing ca
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22:40:41 <zzo38> I have made a graph of it
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22:58:59 <zzo38> If I want to add image manipulation into TeXnicard, how many (monochrome) bitmap registers and how many graymap registers should I have?
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23:35:57 <quintopia> this is the earliest i've ever seen elliott leave
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23:37:58 <Gregor> quintopia: But he ping-timeout'd, not quit.
23:38:51 <quintopia> i don't think it's a problem with his connection
23:39:15 <quintopia> i bet he just unplugged his computer because he was fed up with us
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00:36:34 <Sgeo> I feel guilty for not donating now
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00:53:47 <zzo38> Let's 'patamagic. And also 'pataprogramming.
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00:58:41 <zzo38> Hay! I did not receive NickServ and ChanServ notices immediately, it took a few seconds after I joined, and then those notices are on.
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01:28:04 <zzo38> I added all of the spell/feats in gopher too, now it is not limited to HTTP only.
01:28:13 <zzo38> (You can still access on HTTP as well)
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01:32:11 <zzo38> Do you like this spell?
01:49:10 <zzo38> I want to cast the spell called "Break Into Debugger" (Sor/Wiz 9)
01:49:19 <Gregor> Welp, looks like I'll be taking dlsym@libdl.so as second prize :P
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01:50:58 <zzo38> Gregor: Did you lose libc.so so you put libdl.so instead? Or, is something else?
01:51:09 <Gregor> I already had libdl.so
01:51:18 <Gregor> But yes, I will not be getting libc.
01:52:03 <zzo38> Now are you going to sue everyone on this channel because you did not get libc?
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02:21:25 <oerjan> <elliott> why is this not working
02:22:38 <oerjan> yeah `quote is buggy with actual regexes. i've known for a while but i have nowhere near enough understanding of shell escaping to fix it.
02:23:08 <oerjan> (i assume the passing through shell breaks it.)
02:23:48 <oerjan> or i vaguely recall, it may be that test for a number which did something screwy
02:24:20 <oerjan> delving into even more obscure shell details.
02:26:14 <oerjan> in other news, i should learn to read the rest of log before commenting.
02:26:33 <oerjan> (WHAT DO YOU MEAN THAT'S NOT NEWS)
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02:34:35 <oerjan> <olsner> elliott: "borkelde"?
02:34:44 <oerjan> ancient norse goddess of mayhem
02:35:36 <Sgeo> Just received IM Spam
02:35:45 <Sgeo> It used the praise.hm URL shortener...
02:51:41 <oerjan> <zzo38> Now are you going to sue everyone on this channel because you did not get libc?
02:51:59 <oerjan> no use suing people who are too poor to contribute, is there.
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03:19:18 <quintopia> how do i break the select method form all input objects in the DOM on all webpages via greasemonkey?
03:19:37 <quintopia> HMTLInputElement.prototype.select = empty function doesn't work
03:19:46 <quintopia> i think because it gets run after the page is loaded maybe?
03:20:15 <quintopia> do i need to loop over dom and break them all individually?
03:20:51 <Gregor> You're only trying to break it from JS' perspective, right?
03:21:26 <quintopia> i don't want a page to be able to do auto-highlighting on mouseovers and such
03:21:40 <Gregor> In principle that should work. But it could just be unconfigurable. Have you checked if HTMLInputElement.prototype.select actually changed?
03:22:18 <quintopia> ah, no...interwebs tell me that works though
03:22:55 <quintopia> is there an about: page for the dom inspector?
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03:36:22 <quintopia> DOM inspector does not let me see the contents of "prototype"
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10:29:53 <Vorpal> freenode seems somewhat unstable today
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10:34:25 <fizzie> Perhaps they're still patching.
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10:34:51 <fizzie> (Re "[Global Notice] Hi folks! As you'll have noticed, we've been having some connectivity problems tonight. We're working on patching things together just now." about seven hours ago.)
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11:55:33 <cheater-> are there any markov bot plugins for xchat?
11:56:54 <cheater-> there's another channel where people speak german and they keep on accusing me of being a markov bot
11:57:04 <cheater-> so i thought i should actually set up a markov bot that could chat for me every now and then
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15:32:26 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.03: 128k+32k+16k+2x1k+256+/32+2x/48 to Australia, 64k to China, 512 to Indonesia, /32 to India, /48 to Norfolk Island, /48 to New Zealand, /32 to Singapore, 64k to Thailand.
15:34:12 <Ilari> Well, at least APNIC is now under 12Mi addresses. :-)
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15:37:26 <Gregor> When did you project APNIC depletion? Mid-April?
15:38:20 <Ilari> 614.5k addresses in a day.
15:38:25 <Ilari> I'll compute new projection...
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15:41:19 <Ilari> I got Thursday 14th April this time.
15:42:16 <Ilari> (that date is next week!)
15:43:13 <Gregor> How 'bout for North America?
15:43:20 <Gregor> (Or is "the Americas" the region? I forget)
15:48:57 <Ilari> 3.64 blocks (58Mi) or so seemingly.
15:49:48 <Ilari> (Free, don't know about the allocation rate, it is much much lower than APNIC rate).
15:51:45 <Gregor> So we could cruise at least through 2012.
15:52:08 <Ilari> Heh, in the last 30 days lists, the only allocation bigger than 256k not from APNIC is one 1M allocation from AfriNIC.
15:53:43 <oerjan> perhaps when APNIC runs out the run will spread to other regions...
15:54:34 <oerjan> unless they have rules to prevent asian companies from allocating IPs from elsewhere
15:56:54 <Ilari> Yeah, that's the worry.
15:58:06 <Ilari> The demand might spread to ARIN and RIPE NCC, quickly depleting those. Then after those have been sucked dry, LACNIC and AfriNIC.
15:59:38 <Ilari> 1 block of demand (combined) per month would suck ARIN and RIPE NCC out completely in about 6.5 months.
16:02:08 <Ilari> Hmm... The default option in Lagerholm's tool previously was "RIR shopping allowed", now that option is no longer the default.
16:04:13 <Ilari> If Asian operators don't shift demand to other regions and if ARIN and RIPE don't suffer similar run-on-the-bank scenarios as APNIC (both fairly dubious assumptions), RIPE would run out late next year (even RIPE itself isn't that optimistic!) and ARIN in early year after that.
16:05:36 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
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16:05:45 <elliott> 23:37:58: <Gregor> quintopia: But he ping-timeout'd, not quit.
16:05:46 <elliott> 23:38:51: <quintopia> i don't think it's a problem with his connection
16:05:46 <elliott> 23:39:15: <quintopia> i bet he just unplugged his computer because he was fed up with us
16:05:46 <elliott> my client can do that sometimes
16:05:48 <Ilari> Full demand shifting would cause everything to run out early next year.
16:06:11 <elliott> 00:28:40: <Sgeo> Gregor, :(:(
16:06:12 <elliott> 00:36:34: <Sgeo> I feel guilty for not donating now
16:06:18 <elliott> i don't see Gregor saying anything beforehand?
16:06:50 <Gregor> elliott: I shall not discuss libc.so in-channel, but that doesn't stop other people from doing so :P
16:07:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, can you at least confirm that you didn't get it?
16:07:15 <Gregor> 'twas not meant to be.
16:07:25 <elliott> what made people suspect that he didn't get it
16:07:36 <elliott> sgeo just seems to have decided that out of the blue
16:07:44 <oerjan> elliott: he changed his nick back?
16:07:54 <elliott> um his nick had been back five years ago
16:08:15 <fizzie> Or the lack of raucous celebration?
16:08:33 <Gregor> If there was raucous celebration, it would have started nowishly :P
16:09:40 <Gregor> Really? Not your browser?
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16:13:55 <Ilari> Wonder if IPv6 allocation rates in Asia-Pacific will take some rocket fuel when APNIC IPv4 pool depletes.
16:14:48 -!- sftp has joined.
16:16:21 <Ilari> ... The primary worry with that is if APNIC is fast enough to handle the demand, not that it would deplete APNIC pool (there's over 30 bilion /48s to allocate until half-block threshold is reached, and then there's IANA with 506 blocks).
16:17:33 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: whois would fail because it doesn't know how to whois .so in particular.
16:17:55 <Gregor> Plus I don't think they provide a whois-protocol whois server...
16:18:04 <Gregor> Is your browser Chrome, perchance?
16:18:06 <elliott> This TLD has no whois server.
16:18:24 <Gregor> It has a web-accessible captchawhois :P
16:18:36 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: The auction isn't over yet, and even if it was it wouldn't be allocated yet.
16:19:04 <elliott> Charlie Sheen. He's a real C programmer.
16:19:39 <Ilari> Oops, calculated that estimate wrong: I get Wednesday 13th April using the current pool size (not pool size after Friday).
16:20:21 <Gregor> I had an earlier number than the others because I was in the ld-linux.so auction, although I made no bids there.
16:22:21 <Ilari> But for some reason Huston site has APNIC having extra 0.2 free blocks (which would push depletion to ~Friday 15th April).
16:22:26 <elliott> Oh, not #whatever in the auction, just in general :P
16:22:31 <elliott> I was thinking dayum, you had no chance.
16:22:39 <elliott> Also ld-linux was actually fought over at all? X-D
16:26:53 <elliott> fizzie: YOU'RE a Forthy kind of person aren't you?! DO YOU WANT TO TRY THE FRTH DEVELOPER PRELEASE
16:28:12 <fizzie> I'm not that frothy; I'm really actually quite stale.
16:29:03 <Ilari> What? Graph on APNIC site is showing only down 0.01, but values for numerious previous days have gone down 0.02 (retroactively!).
16:29:28 <elliott> fizzie: Well, yeah, being almost 30 and all.
16:29:54 <oerjan> Ilari: the ip depletion is causing disruptions in the timestream. we are doomed!
16:45:32 <Vorpal> <Ilari> But for some reason Huston site has APNIC having extra 0.2 free blocks (which would push depletion to ~Friday 15th April). <-- and what happens then
16:45:42 <elliott> OF THE WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORLD
16:45:44 <Vorpal> Ilari, how long before the LIRs get into issue?
16:48:44 <Ilari> No idea how long LIRs have to go. There's certain allocation period (but I don't recall what current APNIC policies about that are).
16:48:49 <oerjan> it's the phone call of DOOM
16:49:46 <Ilari> Uh, oh: "CNNIC, the Chinese Registrar and CA have been EV enabled. As part of this, a new EV-enabled Root was added (the old is not EV-enabled)." (opera). Let's just say that certain persons don't trust CNNIC _at_ _all_.
16:49:56 <elliott> hmm, aria2c is being a bit slower than usual :/
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16:52:07 <elliott> In December 2010 some users requested that the Unity launcher (or dock) be movable from the left to other sides of the screen, but Mark Shuttleworth stated in reply, “I'm afraid that won't work with our broader design goals, so we won't implement that. We want the launcher always close to the Ubuntu button.”[11]
16:52:16 <elliott> It SUPPLIES THE CONCEPTUAL ENERGY
16:53:16 <Vorpal> Ilari, EV? Is that DNSSEC-related?
16:53:29 <Ilari> Extended Validation (related to SSL certificates).
16:53:37 <elliott> No. It's Evisceration Vacancies.
16:53:40 <Ilari> Nothing to do with DNSSEC.
16:53:45 <elliott> The Chinese government can now execute people OVER DNS
16:53:59 <elliott> They basically just have a bunch of empty EV records in a domain.
16:54:07 <elliott> When you do a DNS lookup, you get trapped in one and eviscerated.
16:54:09 <Ilari> ... Which .cn apparently doesn't have enabled.
16:56:28 <Ilari> DNSSEC-enabling .cn would only make .cn vulernable to CNNIC. Giving them EV cert perms in browsers makes everything vulernable to them.
16:56:57 <Vorpal> Ilari, hm. Is CNNIC bad?
16:58:19 <Ilari> Vorpal: Depends on how tightly China controls it...
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17:01:33 <elliott> hmm, writing a Magenta parser looks scary
17:06:26 * cheater99 hates the "opensores" web app/store called Magento.
17:10:41 <cheater99> First, I don't have a damn clue what any of this means anymore. The design was such a twisted mess that there was no way I could go back and add anymore to it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the poor sap trying to turn this disaster into a LALR(1) grammar for yacc. That said, I'd love to see someone try.
17:11:10 <oerjan> magento, part esolang, part supervillain
17:12:41 -!- asiekierka has joined.
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17:22:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, HP Lovecraft was appalled when he discovered his great-great-grandmother was Welsh.
17:23:10 <elliott> You're HP Lovecraft's great-great-grandmother?
17:24:22 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:24:26 <elliott> I know not what you talk about.
17:24:52 -!- asiekierka has joined.
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17:25:08 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> OH GOD WAIT HE IS <-- just back
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17:26:07 <elliott> wow, Common Lisp actually has if/else
17:26:09 <Vorpal> btw, I think I might do some sort of fuzzy-matching on highlighting. Would be fun
17:26:11 <elliott> that is, with explicit else
17:26:43 <elliott> finally (return (values evens odds)))
17:27:26 <elliott> that's why it surprised me
17:27:39 <elliott> (i wouldn't have expected it to pronounce it in quite that way)
17:27:58 <ais523> BF really needs a while/else
17:28:14 <ais523> e.g. if (*p) while (*p) {} else {}
17:28:24 <ais523> it'd let me abbreviate my huge BF Joust program much better
17:28:44 <ais523> I think I finally got it within fizzielance's nesting constraints, by examining the other programs and adding only the cases that actually ran
17:28:57 <ais523> which is a bit like constant tweaking, but I don't care as it's working around an intepreter failure
17:29:10 <elliott> wait, exactly what you said
17:29:14 <ais523> well, it'd matter in BF Joust because of itming
17:30:04 <ais523> !bfjoust anticipation http://sprunge.us/CNiW
17:30:15 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_anticipation: 40.2
17:30:37 <ais523> ^ defence program that beats slowpoke
17:30:49 <elliott> that made me think Culture ship names, then I tried to think why, then I realised that an (IIRC obnoxious) Wikipedian used that Culture ship name as a username for a while
17:30:51 <ais523> unfortunately, I figured out how to adapt slowpoke's strategy in a way which probably is completely fatal to defence
17:30:56 <elliott> then I regretted my auto-thinking
17:31:03 <elliott> ais523: you said that /last/ time too
17:31:14 <ais523> what, that slowpoke was fatal?
17:31:15 <elliott> (Culture ship in question is Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The)
17:31:22 <elliott> (Let's just pretend I've memorised every Culture ship name without ever reading the novels)
17:31:54 <ais523> but anticipation-style strategies can only work by assuming the program in question uses consistent timings
17:32:06 <ais523> and I worked out how to make slowpoke vary its attack timing
17:33:04 <elliott> ok, the person who used that name has /way/ too many pseudonyms
17:35:37 <Gregor> http://libdl.so/ <-- best web page ever?
17:36:22 <ais523> probably not, but it's good for a quick laugh
17:36:31 <cheater99> ok gregor... now i know your powerword
17:36:39 <elliott> SO HOW MANY THOUSANDS DID THAT ONE COST MR. GREGOR "MONEYBAGS" RICHARDS [U+PRBLM TROLL FACE]
17:37:03 <elliott> ais523: what's the ;s in anticipation?
17:37:11 <Gregor> cheater99: ... my ... name?
17:37:20 <Gregor> elliott: There was no auction. $10 :P
17:37:34 <elliott> >>>(-)*20<(-)*20<(-)*20<(+)*108;
17:37:34 <Gregor> cheater99: My name isn't a secret. My real name is on my /whois .
17:37:37 <ais523> oh, I must have been putting trailing semicolons out out of habit
17:37:50 <ais523> the ()*14 stuff is debug cod
17:37:50 <elliott> Gregor: No, your REAL NAME
17:37:56 <cheater99> http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Powerword
17:38:00 <elliott> Gregor: Mrs. Mary Gregor Richards
17:38:02 <ais523> juiced currently notices loops like that and prints them to stderr whenever they execute
17:38:15 <ais523> which is really helpful when debugging
17:38:22 <ais523> and other interps ignore them
17:38:41 <elliott> ais523: we decided on ()*0 as the comment format; IMO that would be a far superior method
17:38:52 <elliott> because printing all comments in a debug mode is a pretty good idea in bf joust
17:39:01 <ais523> elliott: perhaps, but comments are sometimes really long
17:39:04 <elliott> since comments (at least for me) tend to just denote when the warrior starts doing something interesting
17:39:04 <cheater99> Revealing to your victim that you know their Powerword: Real Name will cause them to panic, as they suddenly confront the possibility that their Furaffinity posts or the Eagle-Fox hybrid voraphile porn on their DeviantArt account could be sent to their IRL co-workers and friends. Their typical reaction will be to DELETE FUCKING EVERYTHING - fortunately, most good trolls take screenshots.
17:39:07 <ais523> comments and debug tags are inherently different things
17:39:20 <ais523> what if someone puts the entire code generator in a comment?
17:39:29 <elliott> ais523: Gregor tried that, the syntax rules made it impossible :)
17:39:36 <elliott> [( They're on our flag; time to attack )*0
17:39:41 <ais523> or uses comments to explain their decoy setups?
17:39:47 <elliott> [-] ( They're gone! Or are they? )*0 [(Nope)*0 ...] ...]
17:39:59 <elliott> ais523: that's acceptable to print out, IMO
17:40:03 <elliott> it's easy enough to skip over such things
17:40:05 <ais523> not if it's several lines long
17:40:10 <elliott> ais523: it only happens once
17:40:19 <ais523> the code generator for anticipator has huge paragraphs explaining which timings are used by which other programs
17:40:31 <elliott> ais523: OK, well, what if we said that ()%0 was debug? :-D
17:40:54 <ais523> especially as ({a})%0 should semantically run the a
17:41:01 <ais523> (juiced screws up on that case, though, IIRC)
17:41:03 <elliott> ais523: Don't go ouch, my other idea was ((debug)*0)*-1
17:41:29 <elliott> <ais523> especially as ({a})%0 should semantically run the a
17:41:33 <ais523> the other advantage of ()*n is that it doesn't need to store any information the interp isn't already storing
17:41:36 <ais523> juiced deletes comments on load
17:41:45 <Vorpal> <elliott> <ais523> especially as ({a})%0 should semantically run the a
17:41:57 <elliott> ais523: lance's architecture required deleting ()*n, IIRC
17:41:59 <Vorpal> (comment {a} comment)%0
17:42:06 <elliott> <elliott> (before{...}after)%0 <elliott> USEFUL!
17:42:19 <elliott> for which a before/after pair might actually be useful :)
17:42:42 <Vorpal> elliott, so what about proper code comments?
17:42:52 <elliott> we've already agreed those are ()*0
17:43:00 <Vorpal> elliott, I thought that was debug?
17:43:17 <elliott> although they're more dead code than comments, because they still have to have balanced (), [], etc.
17:43:21 <elliott> and can't have {} in them without a ()% in them
17:43:26 <Vorpal> elliott, I wasn't aware of that ()%n existed
17:43:28 <elliott> and ()s in them still have to be followed by * or %, etc. etc. etc.
17:43:47 <Vorpal> elliott, ah well without the {} I meant
17:45:36 * elliott opens a lance directory to start coding
17:45:45 <elliott> no deadline, before anyone asks :P
17:45:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyone have a way to convert a spreadsheet into a LaTeX table?
17:51:39 <elliott> (struct foo*)(foo - offsetof(struct foo, y))
17:51:46 <elliott> guaranteed to be a pointer to blah?
17:52:10 <elliott> It is useful when implementing generic data structures in C. For example, the Linux kernel uses offsetof() to implement container_of(), which allows something like a Mixin type to find the structure that contains it:[3]
17:52:11 <elliott> #define container_of(ptr, type, member) ({ \
17:52:11 <elliott> const typeof( ((type *)0)->member ) *__mptr = (ptr); \
17:52:11 <elliott> (type *)( (char *)__mptr - offsetof(type,member) );})
17:52:11 <elliott> This macro is used to retrieve an enclosing structure from a pointer to a nested element, such as this iteration of a linked list of my_struct objects:
17:56:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, convert it to csv, then a fairly simple sed script should be able to do the rest
17:57:10 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> Of course, everyone has time to make a sed script to do tasks which should be routine enough for preëxisting automation.
17:57:11 <Vorpal> might need some manual adjustment for header
17:57:11 <Vorpal> still should be easy to automate it
17:57:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You have time to whine on IRC, you have time to write a tiny sed script.
17:57:47 <Vorpal> elliott, that looks cool
17:57:56 <Vorpal> pitty is is not portable
17:58:18 <elliott> that container_of is nonportable, though
17:58:25 <Vorpal> or is it typeof that isn't
17:58:33 <Vorpal> either typeof or offsetof is non-portable
17:59:06 <elliott> typeof is nonportable, but container_of is nonportable also because of ((type *0)->
17:59:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, uh, you mean you hate coding? And I was trying to be helpful. I know of no such tool but suggested a somewhat easy way to convert very large tables
18:05:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
18:05:53 <elliott> ais523: how much did your original huge program nest?
18:09:18 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:11:00 <elliott> hmm, C could really do with generics
18:12:07 <Vorpal> elliott, you could do "C with templates" to simulate this ;)
18:12:18 <Vorpal> elliott, but more seriously. Have a look at the C99 header tgmath.h
18:12:48 <Vorpal> funnily there is no pure C way to implement tgmath.h
18:13:28 <elliott> hmm, I'm not even sure that's true
18:13:32 <elliott> it would be really ugly though :)
18:13:59 <elliott> Vorpal: well, if you knew certain things about sizeof...
18:14:13 <elliott> so it can be implemented _for almost any given implementation_ in pure C
18:14:30 <elliott> since the vast majority of implementations I would guess have different sizes of all of the relevant types
18:16:07 <Vorpal> elliott, not true. Few embedded things do.
18:16:11 <ais523> elliott: it nests 1 per cycle it waits
18:16:13 <Vorpal> and isn't embedded systems something like 80%-90% of the computers in the world? Read that somewhere..
18:16:18 <elliott> ais523: I mean, source code nesting depth
18:16:40 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, but i hope most embedded systems don't run C
18:16:44 <elliott> (they probably do, but I hope they don't)
18:16:47 <ais523> the code is pretty simple, just doesn't compress well
18:16:49 <elliott> ais523: that's not an answer, the answer is constant
18:16:58 <elliott> I know it broke fizziewhateverlance's limit
18:17:13 <ais523> elliott: indeed, 1 per cycle it waits, which is a value I set when writing the code
18:17:18 <ais523> I think I originally had it at 1600
18:17:51 <elliott> (I'm wondering how high to set the stack limit, or alternatively, whether I really must dynamically allocate)
18:19:05 <ais523> I'd happily put it all the way up at 100000 if I thought it would help, although it'd make the program much longer
18:19:17 <ais523> -rw-r--r-- 1 ais523 ais523 204754 2011-04-04 05:18 anticipation.bj
18:19:26 <ais523> I doubt I'd go much above 2000 or so without exceeding the 1MB limit
18:19:58 <Vorpal> 20 lines in half a second
18:20:02 <Vorpal> yet I had no lag elsewhere
18:20:24 <elliott> ais523: there is no 1 meg limit
18:20:29 <elliott> unless fizzielance has one
18:20:36 <Vorpal> "<ais523> elliott: it nests 1 per cycle it waits" to "<ais523> I doubt I'd go much above 2000 or so without exceeding the 1MB limit" arrived in a single second
18:21:04 <ais523> actually, I think it might be interesting to do BF Joust with a nesting restriction on expanded []
18:21:08 <ais523> a really small one, say 16
18:21:13 <elliott> ais523: yes, but that's not the language we're using :)
18:21:19 <ais523> it'd probably make ()% redundant
18:21:26 <ais523> but it'd get rid of slowpoke and improved-slowpoke-style things
18:21:28 <elliott> ais523: I'll probably just malloc a 1,048,576 structures big thing for the nesting stack
18:21:34 <elliott> or maybe smaller, a struct seems to be...
18:21:37 <ais523> (I'll hold off on improved-slowpoke in case it truly is impossible to defend against)
18:21:59 <elliott> so that would be 16 megabytes :)
18:22:07 <elliott> otoh, 16 megabytes isn't much to allocate
18:22:13 <ais523> doing it dynamically should be easy
18:22:14 <elliott> otooh, nobody is going to nest _that_ much
18:22:17 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, but i hope most embedded systems don't run C <-- what do you expect them to run
18:22:18 <elliott> wait, I can just use the cycle limit
18:22:23 <ais523> in case you're wondering, joust allocates the stack during the parser
18:22:24 <elliott> that's a literal hard limit
18:22:37 <elliott> ais523: it isn't hard, but manual memory management angers me anyway
18:22:46 <ais523> in fact, the nesting stack's stored in the same structs that the program is
18:22:59 <Vorpal> elliott, C is the majority as far as I know. Then there is a bit of ADA and asm. And a few thiny other languages including forth.
18:23:04 <elliott> ais523: it doesn't even compile to jumps? lol
18:23:14 <Vorpal> elliott, do ada is getting a lot more rare very quickly
18:23:22 <elliott> you've made that typo like 48734953948593475893745793845793459837598345 times
18:23:25 <ais523> elliott: it effectively does
18:23:27 <ais523> but it's more structured
18:23:48 <Vorpal> elliott, but yeah, C very clearly dominates
18:24:02 <elliott> hmm, when camelcased is opcode Opcode or OpCode?
18:25:00 <Vorpal> elliott, and in embedded the ISA bus isn't still quite dead yet. Sadly.
18:25:04 <Vorpal> It is dying, but not there yet.
18:25:47 <elliott> oh noes? isa isn't that old
18:26:05 <Vorpal> elliott, ISA was quite horrible
18:26:22 <elliott> (before objecting that it was invented in 1981, remember that i've been reading about Multics and identifying with a lot of the design goals and implementation, and that was in 1969)
18:26:57 <Vorpal> elliott, does that mean you think everything old was better?
18:27:07 <elliott> no, it just means that i've looked a lot further back than most people :)
18:27:18 <elliott> oh, and I seem to like ALGOL 60 quite well, based on what ais523's said and some other things
18:27:46 <Vorpal> elliott, you should go write machine code on punch cards
18:27:57 <elliott> <Vorpal> UR JUST A MINDLESS OLDIE CONSERVATIVE
18:28:02 <Vorpal> assembler? You got to be kidding
18:28:22 <elliott> been practising your reading comprehension i see :)
18:28:33 <Vorpal> elliott, no I didn't say that :P
18:28:33 <Vorpal> elliott, I agree multics had some good points
18:28:54 <elliott> ais523: does your hardware pass the man or boy test?
18:28:59 <Vorpal> elliott, also I never said I wouldn't want to play with punch cards myself!
18:29:15 <ais523> elliott: I haven't looked at it yet
18:29:18 <elliott> Vorpal: that kind of fetish will get you in hospital with papercuts all over
18:29:24 <elliott> ais523: it's basically a set of the insanity of call by name
18:29:29 <ais523> it should do, because it's harder for it to happen incorrectly than correctly
18:29:40 <ais523> (I know the test exists, and more or less what it tests)
18:29:40 <elliott> ais523: (the answer is -67, but Knuth thought it was -121 in the original paper, that's how hard it is :D)
18:30:09 <Vorpal> elliott, what is this test you are talking about?
18:30:11 <ais523> what's difficult in hardware is very different from what's difficult in software
18:30:11 <elliott> ais523: so does your compiler work on ICA code or ALGOL 60 code?
18:30:14 <elliott> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_or_boy_test
18:30:58 <ais523> elliott: it works on ICA parsetrees, atm
18:31:11 <ais523> also, that program doesn't compile into hardware, it uses an illegal sort of recursion
18:32:08 <elliott> what's the max cycles? 1 M? 100 k?
18:32:15 <ais523> (hardware has to be finite-state; that means restricting what's allowed)
18:32:17 <elliott> in jouoouououououououost, i mean
18:32:31 <ais523> is the normally agreed-upon value nowadays
18:33:51 <elliott> ais523: that was a bug in egojoust, IIRC
18:33:59 <ais523> no, the bug made it interpret -1 as 10k
18:36:37 <elliott> still, C needs generics :)
18:36:46 <elliott> you can't even define a stack in C!
18:37:08 <elliott> either you have (1) ugly (void *) munging requiring extraneous allocation with stacks of structures,
18:37:15 <Vorpal> elliott, you can with macros
18:37:20 <elliott> (2) both an array and an index variable that are separate,
18:37:29 <elliott> (3) a macro that defines a bunch of types and functions for working on a specific type
18:37:39 <elliott> such a macro is hideously ugly and causes binary bloat
18:37:41 <Vorpal> elliott, it can take a type as parameter to the macro
18:38:02 <elliott> there's actually a final option, a bunch of functions that take sizeofs and a bunch of macros that call them with the appropriate sizes, but that's insanely ugly too.
18:38:19 <Vorpal> elliott, you could do it as a linked list
18:38:31 <elliott> duh, that's what the function solutions were
18:38:37 <elliott> OTOH, a linked list is pretty inefficient for a stack in C
18:38:48 <Vorpal> elliott, oh, I though the functions operated on an array of some sort
18:38:49 <elliott> a growing away is much better, but even more work to code
18:39:05 <Vorpal> elliott, so stop coding C
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18:39:25 <elliott> I'd still have to write my own growing array in Haskell I think :-D
18:39:29 <elliott> or maybe the vector package has that
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18:39:41 <Vorpal> elliott, surely perl has this?
18:39:50 <elliott> anyway C is more useful, since EgoBot's Haskell environment is uncertain
18:39:57 <elliott> and also, because BF Joust execution is quite intensive
18:40:00 <ais523> coppro: I think the Alternative Vote campaining's starting to start in earnest; the government sent out leaflets explaining what the vote was about, and links to the campaign websites: http://www.yestofairervotes.org/ http://www.no2av.org/
18:40:04 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway it would be trivial to do in scheme
18:40:14 <ais523> I love how the "no" campaign indirectly calls the US a third world country
18:40:15 <elliott> ais523: it started a while ago
18:40:28 <Vorpal> elliott, use lambdabot?
18:40:35 <ais523> elliott: well, yesterday's when all the leafleting, etc, reached my house
18:40:51 <Vorpal> elliott, so do it in ASM!
18:41:02 <elliott> Vorpal: not portable, even more work to code generic things
18:41:27 <coppro> ais523: are opinion polls out yet?
18:41:37 <ais523> coppro: I don't think so
18:41:42 <ais523> but I haven't really looked
18:41:43 <elliott> ais523: I'd expect the yes campaign to do that
18:41:49 <elliott> "all first-world countries have a sane voting system!"
18:42:23 <elliott> ais523: ugh @ the yes site, just because bad people vote no on AV doesn't mean it's a good idea (it is, but for better reasons altogether)
18:42:25 <ais523> well, the no campaign seems to be based on two points: a) it's expensive, b) it means that the winner will be chosen by back-room deals between politicians rather than who people actually voted for
18:42:30 <elliott> interestingly, Java-style generics would actually be a good fit for C, but they won't work because sizeof
18:42:41 <elliott> ais523: you forgot c) ONE PERSON ONE VOTE LOL I AM RETARDED
18:42:43 <ais523> as in, do they have a point, or are they just lying in order to try to confuse people?
18:42:47 <ais523> elliott: they didn't list that
18:42:56 <elliott> ais523: that's the "slogan" on their website, IIRC
18:43:12 <elliott> see top-right corner image of http://www.no2av.org/
18:43:32 <ais523> one thing I note about the No campaign is that there's a very strong indication, if not spelt out, of "all sane politicians oppose AV, AV is a Lib Dem conspiracy to let Nick Clegg become dictator!"
18:43:33 <elliott> "The Alternative Vote will be wrong for BRitain and wrong for the Labour Party."
18:43:40 <elliott> hmm, no2av looks like it might get people to actually vote yes :-D
18:44:11 <ais523> it looks strongly targeted at Labour voters, to me
18:44:19 <ais523> and people who voted Lib Dem but regretted the decision
18:44:25 <ais523> unfortunately, that may well be > 50% of the country
18:44:26 <elliott> ais523: I suppose the Tories have already made up their minds
18:44:39 <ais523> I'm not certain they have
18:44:55 <ais523> people who have looked into the maths think that AV would probably be good for the Tories short-term, and bad long-term
18:44:58 <elliott> also, I wonder if most people regret voting for the Lib Dems because they've been spineless, or because they've decided that the current government is TOO LEFT WING?
18:45:04 <elliott> the former is the sane reason, but I fear it might be the latter
18:45:15 <ais523> elliott: because they threw in with the Conservatives
18:45:42 <elliott> (I wouldn't have minded the Coalition if it wasn't effectively the Conservatives governing with the name of the Lib Dems)
18:45:52 <ais523> I'm the other way round, I didn't manage to vote Lib Dem due to a mixup (despite trying), but don't regret the result of the election
18:45:53 <Vorpal> <ais523> coppro: I think the Alternative Vote campaining's starting to start in earnest; the government sent out leaflets explaining what the vote was about, and links to the campaign websites: http://www.yestofairervotes.org/ http://www.no2av.org/ <-- which country?
18:45:53 <Vorpal> ais523, so what is this change really about?
18:45:53 <Vorpal> elliott, ais523: what is the actual suggested change here?
18:45:53 <Vorpal> a saner voting system would be good for UK. But it needs to be saner.
18:46:04 <elliott> all those mesages just came at once
18:46:16 <elliott> <Vorpal> a saner voting system would be good for UK. But it needs to be saner.
18:46:24 <ais523> Vorpal: the suggested change is to replace a first-past-the-post voting system with alternative-vote
18:46:25 <Vorpal> elliott, than your old one
18:46:32 <ais523> AV is definitely saner than FPTP
18:46:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I got your messages in bursts btw
18:46:36 <ais523> because most things are saner than FPTP
18:47:03 <ais523> also, in all the AV elections I've participated in so far (at university), it's been pretty sane for one-person-elected results
18:47:27 <Vorpal> one person elected stuff is where you get into issues
18:47:28 <ais523> I know from personal experience that STV (the generalised version to select more than one seat) is mostly sane, but gets extremely insane in edge cases
18:47:37 <elliott> ROI use IRV for presidential elections
18:47:40 <ais523> never ever try to elect fourteen candidates to twelve places like that
18:47:42 <elliott> quick, let's start the propaganda machine!
18:47:44 <Vorpal> I'm not saying that the Swedish one very good, but it is quite okay
18:48:12 <elliott> ais523: yay for Stochastic votes, the only mathematically sane voting system!
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18:48:34 <elliott> I hereby propose all 0 #esoteric elections be held with stochastic voting
18:48:42 <elliott> (I'm not sure stochastic voting is quite sane on such a small scale, though :))
18:48:54 <Vorpal> olsner, voting system. It is saner than the old UK one. And than the US one.
18:49:09 <variable> by definition no voting system is good
18:49:09 <ais523> elliott: how does that work? everyone votes, then you choose a result at random?
18:49:20 <elliott> ais523: that's brilliant, but no, and I have definitely told you about it before
18:49:27 <olsner> it's pretty sane I think, everything is excessively sane in sweden... except the government, of course
18:49:39 <elliott> ais523: "In each riding, ballots cast are counted. A random candidate is selected with a distribution proportional to the number of votes for each candidate. The selected candidate wins the seat."
18:49:52 <ais523> ah, that's slightly saner
18:49:55 <ais523> but people will still hate it
18:49:58 <elliott> ais523: this is the only voting system in which the only rational choice is to vote for your preference
18:50:07 <elliott> ais523: people will hate it and it'll never be implemented, but there is no logical reason to hate it
18:50:17 <elliott> it completely eliminates tactical voting and other such nonsense
18:50:25 <coppro> elliott: no it does not
18:50:33 <elliott> coppro: it eliminates tactical voting being _rational_
18:50:42 <variable> elliott: but that doesn't mean the winner we be reflective of the group
18:50:54 <coppro> elliott: no, no it does not
18:50:56 <ais523> coppro: it seems to get around Arrow's Theorem by having a nondeterministic result
18:51:04 <elliott> coppro: are you going to answer why, or are you just going to say it's not?
18:51:23 <coppro> ais523: yes, that I know
18:51:30 <Vorpal> <olsner> it's pretty sane I think, everything is excessively sane in sweden... except the government, of course <-- :D
18:51:35 <ais523> elliott: what about this: /everyone/ voted for is elected, and they make collective decisions by voting themselves, with voting power proportional to the number of people who voted for them
18:51:42 <ais523> actually, that's just Liquid Democracy, isn't it?
18:51:57 <elliott> coppro: that's not an answer, let alone a proof
18:52:11 <variable> http://blog.computationalcomplexity.org/2011/03/unusual-voting-scheme.html
18:52:19 <coppro> any constituency system has the fundamental flaw that a voter may want to vote for a less preferred person in order to get a more preferred overall outcome
18:52:34 <elliott> coppro: all the _individual_ elections are completely fair
18:52:43 <elliott> if you want candidate A in the seat, there is no reason not to vote for candidate A
18:52:48 <elliott> coppro: in this case, you _don't_ want candidate A in the seat
18:53:02 <elliott> your ideal world has candidate A in the seat, but the current world except candidate A in the seat is not a world you want
18:53:18 <elliott> variable: er, that isn't stochastic voting, just so you know
18:53:33 <Vorpal> wait a second. Don't you vote for a party over there?
18:53:36 <Vorpal> do you vote for individuals?
18:53:43 <Vorpal> in Sweden we vote for a party, and then state the preference of a candidate in that party
18:53:50 <elliott> Vorpal: you vote for an individual who's part of a party
18:53:51 <coppro> Vorpal: no, mmp is stupid
18:53:57 <coppro> ais523: and while arrow's theorem doesn't apply due to nondeterminism, it doesn't actually get around it
18:53:58 <Vorpal> which seems to make a lot more sense, than voting for a given person
18:54:09 <elliott> voting for a person is perfectly logical, it's not electing a president or anything
18:54:11 <elliott> it's picking who will represent you
18:54:23 <elliott> variable: what is the relevance
18:54:39 <coppro> ais523: since the algorithm effectively works by picking a dictator at random
18:54:48 <variable> elliott: I know. I just wanted to point out an interesting type of Real Life voting system
18:54:54 <elliott> coppro: ???? no it doesn't
18:55:02 <variable> relevance = talking about voting + voting system
18:55:07 <ais523> Vorpal: current UK voting system: everyone lives in a constituency; you vote for one person who represents the constituency; whoever gets the most votes in a constituency is elected to government
18:55:11 <elliott> you're using the unweighted sense of "random" to make it sound bad
18:55:11 <coppro> elliott: based on vote proportions
18:55:13 <elliott> you're using the unweighted sense of "random" to make it sound bad
18:55:21 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: you vote for an individual who's part of a party <-- no. We vote for a party. The party has made an ordered list of candidates in the given voting area. You can check one to alter your preference from the top one to that one. Enough checks on a candidate can re-arrange the order of the list.
18:55:32 <ais523> parties don't exist in theory at all, but in practice, each major party suggests someone in each constituency who's more or less forced to toe the party line
18:55:35 <coppro> i.e. picking someone at random and going with their preference
18:55:37 <elliott> Vorpal: no, WE vote for that
18:55:41 <elliott> you as in you-in-our-scheme
18:55:42 <ais523> although occasionally you get "rebellions" where they disobey the party line anyway
18:55:45 <Vorpal> ais523, not at all like the Swedish one then
18:55:52 <elliott> coppro: again, using the different sense of random to make it sound bad
18:56:21 <coppro> elliott: now, you can weight the selection process by, say, square root of votes received
18:56:31 <Vorpal> quoting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Sweden#Voting: "Unlike in many countries where voters chose from a list of candidates or parties, each party in Sweden has separate ballot papers." (and then read on)
18:56:39 <elliott> <coppro> ais523: since the algorithm effectively works by picking a dictator at random
18:56:43 <elliott> all this does is make it sound like the system is
18:56:50 <elliott> >>> random.choice(list_of_candidates)
18:56:55 <elliott> >>> DICTATOR = random.choice(list_of_candidates)
18:57:15 <elliott> both "dictator" and "at random" give the sentence way more emotional content than it should have and makes it read completely wrongly
18:57:18 <ais523> wow, this no-to-AV site contradicts itself
18:57:28 <Vorpal> "The candidates chosen from each party are determined by two factors: the candidate's ranking by their party and the number of preference votes from the voters. Though the parties still entirely control the names on their own party lists, the system gives the voters a degree of power in choosing candidates from the list."
18:57:35 <elliott> ais523: I should start a yes-to-stochastic site, just to make everyone vote for AV
18:57:39 <coppro> >>> DICTATOR = random.choice(list_of_voters)
18:57:46 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean this is the system you aim for?
18:57:47 <coppro> >>> WINNER = DICTATOR.choice
18:57:53 <elliott> coppro: that's not true at all
18:58:08 <coppro> elliott: in the simplest stochastic system, it is
18:58:13 <coppro> as I said, you can ery it more
18:58:14 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: no, WE vote for that <-- what?
18:58:17 <elliott> coppro: that's not a stochastic system _anyone_ is proposing
18:58:22 <elliott> HERE'S MY VOTING SYSTEMS GUYS HURP DURP
18:58:26 <elliott> >>> WINNER = CANDIDATES[0]
18:58:32 <elliott> THIS IS IDENTICAL TO FIRST-PAST-THE-POST AND ALSO ALL SYSTEMS
18:58:37 <elliott> BUT IT'S STILL THE SAME SYSTEM!!!!!
18:58:40 <elliott> ALL VOTING SYSTEMS ARE UNFAIR
18:59:15 <coppro> elliott: in any case, the system /does/ violate a fundamental tenet of democracy that I feel should be maintained
18:59:40 <coppro> namely, that a sufficiently large majority should get to choose
19:00:07 <ais523> most voting systems violate that in practice
19:00:13 <elliott> coppro: that's incredibly vague
19:00:25 <elliott> and it doesn't violate that tenet at all
19:00:31 <elliott> coppro: what YOU'RE arguing for is literal direct democracy
19:00:41 <elliott> because, if you have representatives, they could vote for something the large majority doesn't want!
19:00:46 <elliott> VIOLATES A FUNDAMENTAL TENET OF DEMOCRACY
19:00:54 <variable> coppro: and one which is fundamentally impossible to have along with the other "democratic" principles (see arrows theorem which has been mentioned before)
19:00:56 <elliott> so if you're proposing completely pure direct democracy...
19:01:00 <elliott> uhh, have fun, I won't be joining you
19:01:00 <ais523> gah, this yes-to-AV site suggests that AV eliminates tactical voting
19:01:15 <ais523> which it doesn't, although it makes it both risky and confusing, which means it'll likely drop in practice to a level low enough to not be significant
19:01:45 <coppro> The ability to successfully vote tactically in practice is very reduced and requires some serious mathematics and accurate opinion polls to work out
19:02:21 <elliott> which means that only geeks will vote tactically and thus control the system!
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19:02:49 <ais523> coppro: indeed; the correct way to vote tactically under AV is to vote for a party with more extreme views than the party you think is most likely to win but don't want to win first, keeping your other preferences in order, with small probability
19:03:00 <variable> elliott: I just prefer a dictatorship with myself at the helm
19:03:00 <ais523> and I wouldn't want to take that risk
19:03:08 <ais523> also, the situations in which it comes up are kind-of rare
19:03:22 <elliott> dictatorship sounds like too much work
19:03:22 <coppro> variable: yes, I'm familiar with Arrow's theorem, however, there are voting systems that can maintain a majority criterion provided, of course, that you drop the independence of irrelevant alternatives
19:03:29 <elliott> i'd just have people use a mind reading device on me
19:03:35 <elliott> and implement whatever i think is good
19:03:42 <ais523> independence of irrelevant alternatives is pretty useful
19:04:00 <ais523> hmm, which of the criteria does AV fail? it meets IIA, doesn't it?
19:04:08 <coppro> but impossible in any deterministic voting system
19:04:12 <Vorpal> variable, a direct democracy would surely work?
19:04:13 <elliott> ais523: Wikipedia probably has the answers :-P
19:04:19 <coppro> ais523: no, it doesn't meet IIA
19:04:19 <ais523> elliott: indeed, but I'm being lazy
19:04:22 <coppro> in practice, no sane voting system does
19:04:23 <elliott> Vorpal: Uhhhhhhh, define work
19:04:29 <elliott> Direct democracy so does not work in practice
19:04:29 <coppro> because violating the other two are worse
19:04:39 <elliott> Direct democracy gives you a country with no taxes and infinite public services :P
19:04:50 <ais523> coppro: oh right, because an irrelevant alternative could get more first-place votes than the party that eventually wins, and yet more or less no support elsewhere?
19:04:57 <elliott> <ais523> elliott: indeed, but I'm being lazy
19:04:59 <elliott> by trying to think it out yourself?
19:05:12 <ais523> oh, because it can split the vote for the eventual best party in half, causing it to lose in the first round
19:05:18 -!- augur has joined.
19:05:26 <Vorpal> in fact, a direct democracy would be fun
19:05:30 <ais523> elliott: hey, thinking's easier than using the Internet
19:05:34 <Vorpal> time consuming however
19:05:37 <variable> Vorpal: you end up with rational ignorance and tyranny of the majority (ok - not a necc. a mathematical argument - but an important one to)
19:05:43 <elliott> `addquote <ais523> elliott: hey, thinking's easier than using the Internet
19:05:47 <HackEgo> 350) <ais523> elliott: hey, thinking's easier than using the Internet
19:06:04 <Vorpal> variable, you mean like in Switzerland and the Minaret ban?
19:06:24 <elliott> Switzerland isn't totally direct-democracy.
19:06:42 <variable> Vorpal: I only read about that in passing - but yeah
19:07:25 <coppro> ais523: the alternatives to failing IIA are failing the unanimity criterion or a dictator
19:08:46 <ais523> aren't there four criteria, any one of which can be broken?
19:08:50 <ais523> oh, the other one's always producing a result
19:09:23 <ais523> I think Condorcet fails that one, and meets the other three
19:09:34 <ais523> which is a really interesting combo
19:09:40 <variable> Vorpal: ToM is roughly: "when the controlling members of a voting system vote against the non-controlling members in a way which affords no positive to either side" some would extend that to "in a way which affords to positive to the non-controlling side"
19:09:41 <ais523> especially as it often does produce a result
19:09:43 <Vorpal> variable, you risk that with too anyway. Weather-wane politics to keep the power.
19:09:43 <Vorpal> Less likely yes but still a risk
19:09:43 <variable> Rational Ignorance is: "I don't care about this issue either way - so I won't vote" and thus leads to a minority controlling
19:09:55 <variable> Vorpal: imagine a law giving $100 to every person in new york and taking that from idaho's budget. all the people outside of those two states would not vote (they are rationally ignorant) and NY would win with a bad law (taking money from other people without reason) because of a minority of a total voters)
19:10:04 <elliott> ais523: hmm, I bet there are voting systems like "Condorcet, and if it doesn't work, tweak and repeat"
19:10:20 <ais523> there are quite a few condorcet-and-tiebreak systems
19:10:22 <elliott> the tweaking part being the thing that breaks a different criterion, obviously
19:10:41 <ais523> tweak-and-repeat's an interesting way to do things, though
19:11:02 <Vorpal> <elliott> Switzerland isn't totally direct-democracy. <-- indeed. But in this specific case, that was the aspect that mattered.
19:11:15 <variable> elliott: some ideas I have seen are basically threshold + rotate: everyone votes one person from a pool of nominies. If they get at least X% of the vote they get to be in charge for L amount of time after which the next one takes over
19:11:24 <variable> once they all rotate - new elections
19:11:25 <elliott> ais523: Condorcet, and if it produces no result, remove the least popular candidate, and reassign all votes for that candidate to the candidate just above it in poopularity (where popularity is measured by the sum of 1/ranking over all votes for them, or something), then repeat
19:11:50 <ais523> elliott: Condorcet takes rankings as an input
19:11:58 <elliott> ais523: oh, and this does mean that if you vote (3, X) and (4, Y) and Y gets knocked off, then you'll vote (3, X) and (4, X) which is impossible normally
19:12:01 <elliott> ais523: I accounted for that
19:12:15 <elliott> ais523: that system i just invented probably already exists, anyway :)
19:12:16 <ais523> but it only compares pairwise
19:12:38 <elliott> ais523: create a mapping of candidate->popularity, where popularity = sum1/ranking for all votes for candidate
19:12:44 <elliott> where ranking is the ranking the candidate was at
19:13:03 <elliott> ais523: pick the candidate with the least popularity; change all votes for (ranking,candidate) into (ranking,candidate2), where candidate2 is the second-least candidate by popularity
19:13:12 <ais523> no, the way Condorcet works is for any two candidates, a > b if more people put a above b than put b above a, now tsort the results and see who ends up first
19:13:13 <Vorpal> <variable> <quintopia> gregor! ???????
19:13:20 <ais523> it doesn't produce a result because sometimes you have cycles
19:13:21 <Gregor> quintopia, variable, Vorpal: ???
19:13:22 <quintopia> variable: that is how i go about getting people's attention
19:13:26 <elliott> ais523: note: if you have (3,X) and (4,Y) and Y gets knocked off and X is candidate2, this turns into (3,X) and (4,X), but that's okay
19:13:30 <Vorpal> Gregor, I have no clue
19:13:32 <ais523> so how do you define "least popularity"?
19:13:37 <variable> quintopia: typically prefixed with a "ping" on IRC :-\
19:13:38 <elliott> ais523: you use the ranking pairs directly
19:13:47 <ais523> I think that probably does have a name
19:14:02 <quintopia> variable: maybe that is a freenode tradition, but i shun and eschew tradition
19:14:30 <elliott> ais523: yes; possibly it doesn't make the decision to turn (3,worst-candidate-but-one) and (4,worst-candidate) into (3,worst-candidate-but-one) and (3,worst-candidate-but-one)
19:14:35 <elliott> ais523: (I imagine it might just drop the latter vote)
19:16:15 -!- tswettbot has joined.
19:16:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
19:16:52 <tswett> Okay, I think I know what's going on. I'm telling it to connect, but the object holding the connection is instantly garbage collected, since I'm not doing anything with it.
19:16:52 <elliott> ais523: aargh, one day I'm going to kill G. for introducing "moron in a hurry"
19:17:17 <pumpkin> oh shit, is it going to talk to us about the weather then?
19:17:18 <elliott> tswett: are you using the destructor to close the connection or something?
19:17:24 <elliott> if so, that's probably a bad idea :)
19:17:31 <elliott> and I think smalltalks are mark-and-sweep usually, not refcounted
19:17:36 <elliott> so I very much doubt it's freed instantly
19:17:40 <elliott> or, rather, they're anything but refcounting
19:17:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:17:54 <tswett> I'm not telling it to close the connection at all.
19:18:15 <ais523> is source available? or is it written in the sort of Smalltalk where source doesn't really exist, only objects?
19:18:19 <tswett> All I know is that if I don't do something with the object, tswettbot doesn't show up here.
19:18:32 <tswett> ais523: I could "file out" the package, which might produce readable source code.
19:19:31 <elliott> ais523: You could have just asked "Is it written in GNU Smalltalk?"
19:19:40 <elliott> Anyway, Smalltalk projects are usually shared with Monticello, the language-aware VCS.
19:19:51 <elliott> In Squeak, at least, and IIRC it runs on the popular commercial systems too.
19:20:12 <tswett> Anyway, Smalltalk's GUI and expressions you evaluate manually apparently do not use separate threads automatically. So, since this expression will continue evaluating until tswettbot disconnects, I don't get to use the GUI for a while. :P
19:20:15 <ais523> elliott: I think I went to some effort to make sure that in Feather, source really did always exist
19:20:36 -!- tswettbot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:20:38 <tswett> tswettbot should be out of here in just a mom--yep.
19:24:20 <tswett> The file-out was successful, but I have no idea where the file is. :P
19:25:12 <tswett> Here it is. It's inside the application package.
19:25:32 <elliott> THIS IS WHAT YOU GET FOR USING OS X
19:25:50 <tswett> Alas, this file is CR-delimited.
19:28:42 <tswett> It uses CR to denote a line break.
19:28:47 <tswett> There are no LFs anywhere.
19:28:58 <Vorpal> is that like comma-separated, with LF between lines and CR between fields?
19:29:08 <Vorpal> which would by the way be a nice file format
19:29:25 <Vorpal> tswett, classic mac os?
19:29:27 <ais523> wouldn't using tabs between fields make more sense?
19:29:36 <ais523> for bonus points, EBCDIC has LF, CR, /and/ NL
19:29:48 <Vorpal> I thought OS X didn't use CR any more
19:29:56 <ais523> btw, do you know the original reason both LF and CR were created?
19:29:58 <elliott> ebdiebdciebdeibcidebciebdiebcidbeicbiecicd
19:30:08 <Vorpal> ais523, what did NL do?
19:30:12 <ais523> Vorpal: newline, of course
19:30:22 <tswett> Vorpal: that's certainly not what I'm *using*. I guess this Smalltalk format just happens to use CR for lines.
19:30:31 <Vorpal> ais523, but how was it used
19:30:33 <ais523> the BCD stands for binary-coded-decimal, it's easier to spell if you know that
19:30:39 <tswett> If OS X still used just CR for line breaks, nothing would work. :)
19:30:40 <Vorpal> ais523, as compared to how CR and LF were used
19:31:12 <elliott> are you implying OS X works, tswett?
19:31:22 <tswett> elliott: no, I'm implying that *some* of it works.
19:31:29 <elliott> hmm well that might be true, mathematically
19:31:33 <elliott> depending on the definition of works
19:31:52 <tswett> For example, I can use the TextEdit application to create a plain text file, open up the Terminal application, cat the file (if I can find it), and boom, it's the file I entered into TextEdit.
19:32:30 <elliott> tswett: doesn't textedit use rtf even if you just type plain text, by default
19:33:17 <elliott> I guess it's the file you entered into TextEdit, i.e. literally the file
19:33:21 <elliott> just not the text you entered into TextEdit :-D
19:33:32 <elliott> although i don't think the terminal distinguishes \n from \r\n
19:33:40 <elliott> and it probably decodes any utf-8 sequences
19:33:41 <tswett> Okay, okay, I have to use some menu options to make that work. :P
19:33:42 <elliott> so it's not even the same file!
19:33:53 <elliott> tswett: that doesn't work if you don't have a mouse!!!
19:33:59 <tswett> Here's what the file-out of my Smalltalk looks like: http://pastebin.com/yi34NaBs
19:34:08 <tswett> elliott: I don't have a mouse. It works just fine.
19:34:29 <elliott> tswett: a pointing device, then
19:34:32 <tswett> You can almost read that file-out.
19:34:45 <elliott> oh dear, wiktionary has lojban
19:34:52 <tswett> It's delimited by exclamation marks, apparently.
19:35:06 <tswett> It's mostly readable, but I have no idea what "]style[(45)f1!" means.
19:35:09 <elliott> apparently zbasu was formed by finding out what the word is in a bunch of other languages, then taking letters at random
19:35:25 <elliott> tswett: "TannerSwett" -- your smalltalk name is meant to be your initials, IIRC
19:35:37 <elliott> nextPutAll: 'USER ', nick, ' * * :', nick; crlf;
19:35:37 <elliott> second parameter is mode, not *
19:35:55 <elliott> also classify your methods >:()
19:35:57 <tswett> No, they weren't taken at random. They used a very sophisticated and specialized PRNG.
19:36:18 <elliott> tswett: also also, you probably don't want an accessor for the stream
19:36:20 <elliott> or at least not a /setter/
19:36:32 <tswett> I thought the second and third parameters were the hostname and server.
19:36:56 <tswett> Oh. So you're saying the second parameter should be the number 8?
19:37:08 <elliott> Or any other mode bitmask (there are only two bits you can set that are RFC-defined)
19:37:10 <tswett> And yeah, I'll classify my methods once I figure out what classification they should go in. :P
19:37:16 <elliott> IIRC that sets invisible and disables wallops
19:37:21 <elliott> invisible is forced on freenode anyway
19:37:24 <elliott> and a bot can't do anything useful with wallops
19:37:38 <tswett> And yeah, I don't want a setter on stream.
19:37:46 <elliott> tswett: Or arguably an accessor.
19:37:53 <tswett> The getter should probably go, too, eventually.
19:37:55 <elliott> Unless there's a reason for arbitrary other classes to be writing to the socket.
19:38:01 <elliott> You could just have a writeIRCLine: method or something.
19:38:19 <tswett> I should be using instVarAt: when I really need to access it manually for some strange reason.
19:38:46 <tswett> Or the object browser. :P
19:38:55 <elliott> tswett: You should write a working SmallNomic to motivate me to go back to mine :-D
19:39:04 <tswett> That's what I'm working on.
19:39:14 <tswett> Step one is obviously to write an IRC bot.
19:39:24 <elliott> tswett: Damn. Then stop so I don't feel pressure when writing mine.
19:39:51 <elliott> tswett: I would totally tell you the one thing something can't be called a Smalltalk nomic without, but you'd just STEAL IT if you haven't already and I CANNOT ABIDE BY THAT.
19:40:40 <tswett> I already have a bunch of ideas. Like, make the nomic scriptable with Lua.
19:40:51 <elliott> tswett: Was... Smalltalk not good enough?
19:41:03 <tswett> NO LANGUAGE IS GOOD ENOUGH!
19:41:21 <elliott> tswett: The Thing It Must Have is the ability to modify any core class, not just "Nomic-owned" ones, so that the nomic can even modify the programming language it's written in.
19:41:24 <tswett> Seriously, I've never found a programming language with both persistence and sandboxing. So I'm using Smalltalk for persistence and Lua for sandboxing.
19:41:28 <elliott> Ostensibly this would produce the GREATEST
19:41:33 <elliott> tswett: You don't NEED sandboxing...
19:41:42 <elliott> Apart from, like, running it in a chroot.
19:41:44 <tswett> Yes, but it makes things much nicer, doesn't it?
19:41:50 <tswett> Imagine a MOO that doesn't have sandboxing.
19:41:51 <elliott> It restricts what the nomic can do.
19:42:01 <elliott> tswett: Is it meant to be a nomic or a MOO?
19:42:05 <tswett> No, not that kind of sandboxing. Allow the nomic to sandbox the code that users put into it.
19:42:13 <elliott> (It can't be both; it can only be a nomic with a MOO subgame.)
19:42:19 <tswett> Okay, a nomic with a MOO subgame.
19:42:19 <elliott> <tswett> No, not that kind of sandboxing. Allow the nomic to sandbox the code that users put into it.
19:42:22 <elliott> That's the kind of sandboxing I meant.
19:42:40 <tswett> That's so well-integrated that it becomes a moomic.
19:42:42 <elliott> tswett: The MOO should obviously be in Smalltalk :)
19:42:48 <elliott> Mostly because Smalltalk is pretty well suited to writing nomics.
19:42:59 <elliott> Mostly because Smalltalk is pretty well suited to writing MOOs.
19:43:05 <elliott> (Because of the message-passing paradigm.)
19:43:21 <tswett> So how does the sandboxing I mentioned restrict what the nomic can do?
19:43:31 <elliott> I thought you meant sandboxing proposals themselves and the like.
19:43:58 <tswett> Let people upload code and run it without asking anyone for permission. Naturally, that requires sandboxing.
19:44:01 <elliott> tswett: Also also, you may not have a JS-based class browser proposal creation interface, because that's SmallNomic patented :P
19:44:26 * tswett writes the most ingenious code ever: [(Delay forSeconds: 5) wait] fork
19:44:36 <elliott> Wow! It does nothing, in the background!
19:44:52 <elliott> tswett: Anyway if you were a REAL programmer you'd do it in Self.
19:45:36 <tswett> I wonder how forkAndWait could possibly be useful. It provides threading, but only allows one thread to run at once.
19:46:00 <tswett> Yep. You can [(Delay forSeconds: 5) wait] forkAndWait.
19:46:00 <elliott> Anyway, it'll only wait on it in the current thread.
19:46:07 <elliott> But you could also just call the block.
19:46:17 <elliott> tswett: Why not check out its code/comments?
19:46:41 <tswett> I did. It says, "Suspend current process and execute self in new process, when it completes resume current process".
19:48:45 <tswett> Huh, there are these things called ProcessSpecificVariables.
19:48:58 <tswett> I guess which process you're in sometimes matters.
19:49:01 <elliott> Just put it in an object :P
19:49:13 <Vorpal> tswett, to protect some sort of thread state perhaps? If smalltalk has anything such
19:49:13 <Vorpal> like thread local variables or whatever.
19:49:22 <elliott> What's wrong with using an object
19:49:58 <Vorpal> elliott, Nothing I assume. I was just trying to give a suggestion for what might be the reason behind it
19:50:25 <Vorpal> I don't know smalltalk :P
19:50:31 <Vorpal> well I know a few basic things
19:50:52 <elliott> grr, the worst thing with the
19:50:53 -!- Mannerisky has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:51:05 <elliott> thing is that you can't have functions that operate on the stack
19:51:12 <elliott> without passing two params)
19:51:19 <Vorpal> <elliott> int stack_ptr = -1; <-- aieee!
19:51:19 <tswett> Now to ponder how things are going to send and receive IRC messages.
19:51:22 <Vorpal> elliott, needs to be long
19:51:27 <Vorpal> or even better unsigned long
19:51:40 <elliott> tswett: surely the bot should do that itself
19:51:58 <elliott> Vorpal: why, it's size-limited
19:52:19 <Vorpal> elliott, they why not a short?
19:52:19 <elliott> which i believe always fits in an int.
19:52:29 <elliott> Vorpal: oh eff off... and a signed short can't store that
19:52:55 <elliott> and -1 is to denote "empty stack"
19:53:04 <Vorpal> elliott, use int_least32_t or whatever the type is
19:53:25 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I have worked on system where int was 16-bit
19:53:33 -!- pumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
19:54:18 <Vorpal> elliott, yes it is. It was freestanding however.
19:54:28 <Vorpal> elliott, but please point me to the paragraph that says int must be at least 32 bits
19:55:04 <elliott> hmm, seems int has to store at least +-32767
19:55:31 <Vorpal> — maximum value for an object of type int
19:55:31 <Vorpal> elliott, this is from C99
19:55:35 <Vorpal> but I doubt it would change it radically from C90
19:56:57 <Vorpal> elliott, long must be at least 32 bits
19:56:57 <Vorpal> elliott, this is in 5.2.4.2.1 §1
19:57:04 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm not talking to you until you stop lagging
19:57:09 <Vorpal> elliott, that was 2^15
19:57:09 <elliott> anyway there is only one solution
19:57:16 <elliott> char ptr[sizeof(STACK_SIZE)];
19:57:24 <Vorpal> elliott, and it is you who is lagging from my POV
19:57:30 <Vorpal> elliott, I think freenode is under attack
19:57:33 <elliott> actually i dunno if sizeof(234234) works
19:57:40 <Vorpal> elliott, because I have <0.1s lag to server
19:57:43 <elliott> it might sizeof the overflowed int
19:57:50 <elliott> Vorpal: under attack AND YET
19:57:53 <elliott> nobody but you is having troubles!
19:58:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no problems on other irc networks
19:58:18 <elliott> yes. clearly freenode's problem just for you.
19:58:25 <Vorpal> I could try reconnecting to another server except it would be a PITA
19:58:32 <elliott> yes, it would take whole keystrokes
19:58:37 <Vorpal> elliott, have you looked in larger channels
19:58:45 <Vorpal> elliott, no it would take minutes to rejoin channels :P
19:58:53 <elliott> #ubuntu looks perfectly fine to me
19:59:01 <Vorpal> elliott, there are lag spikes
19:59:12 <elliott> and also, nobody else in here is whining but that's likely more a result of you being whiny than everyone else not having problems
19:59:20 -!- copumpkin has joined.
19:59:23 <elliott> now if you'll excuse me, I'll go back to whining about C
19:59:26 -!- copumpkin has quit (Changing host).
19:59:26 -!- copumpkin has joined.
19:59:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not whining. You are.
19:59:39 <elliott> freenode fail, i think freenode is under attack
19:59:42 <elliott> because i have no problems with other servers
19:59:46 <olsner> Vorpal: stop whining about who's whining
20:00:02 <Vorpal> elliott, no. Because I saw that mentioned in another channel
20:00:25 <Vorpal> elliott, yep. I trust that guy more than current staff.
20:00:28 <elliott> anyway since freenode are incompetent i don't see why they'd get the facts right
20:00:33 <elliott> presumably his sources are inside freenode
20:01:00 <elliott> it's strange, you'd expect competence to go UP after lilo [REST OF SENTENCE REDACTED DUE TO EXTREME BAD TASTE]
20:01:27 <elliott> ooh, netclock looks like fun
20:01:43 <Vorpal> ais523, lilo the founder of freenode
20:02:16 <elliott> i think the biggest channel i've ever seen was the "say the same RIP that everyone else has already said five times about lilo" channel
20:02:31 <elliott> they turned on +m every now and then and when it came off about 100 messages a second came in
20:02:50 <Vorpal> ais523, died in a car accident. The driver did a runaway or whatever the English word is.
20:03:06 <elliott> specifically a car/bicycle accident
20:03:12 <elliott> a car accident to me implies he was in a car
20:03:20 <elliott> and doesn't actually implicate another car at all necessarily
20:03:56 <Vorpal> ais523, ah yes that's it
20:04:18 <Vorpal> elliott, he was a pedestrian.
20:04:33 <elliott> On September 12, 2006, he was struck by a car while riding a bicycle at night in Houston, Texas in a hit-and-run collision. After the collision, it was reported that he was hospitalized for several days. He died on September 16.
20:04:42 <elliott> went into a coma, I believe
20:06:02 <elliott> ais523: I wonder if anyone's just used C with Templates
20:06:59 <ais523> if for each C++ feature, there was a C-like language which was identical for C except with that feature
20:07:09 <ais523> I wonder how many of the resulting languages would be used?
20:08:23 <elliott> C with Different Casting Rules
20:08:37 <ais523> C with More Specific Casts?
20:08:52 <elliott> f(x); /* x won't be casted to (void *) in C++ */
20:08:54 <elliott> you have to do it explicitly
20:09:02 <olsner> C with Templates sounds pretty neat
20:09:03 <elliott> (no matter what the signature of f or x is)
20:09:11 <elliott> C with Long Compilation Times
20:09:47 <tswett> C with Hindley-Milner type inference and implicit closures.
20:10:27 <elliott> it has type inference, not H-M though :)
20:10:33 <elliott> maybe the lambdas end up mandating it :-D
20:10:45 <elliott> although you can't declare a function with auto params
20:10:54 <elliott> gah, why isn't there a type that can hold any other type in C :-D
20:11:05 <elliott> because (void *) can point to anything
20:11:33 <tswett> Because nobody would know how big it is.
20:11:46 <elliott> sure you would, there's a limit because C implementations can't be TC by the standard
20:11:53 <elliott> they can't be TC in the sense that objects can be infinite
20:12:10 <tswett> How many senses of TC are there?
20:12:26 <elliott> I mean that hosted C89 is probably TC
20:12:31 <elliott> but it still can't have arbitrarily-sized objects
20:12:49 <elliott> it is probably TC with file IO, etc.
20:13:03 <tswett> Just use a recursive struct. That will obviously solve the problem.
20:13:16 <elliott> that would be awesome if you could do it :D
20:13:27 <elliott> struct infinite_array rest;
20:13:35 <elliott> can only be fully addressed in unary
20:13:44 <tswett> Yeah. There are no problems with that.
20:13:54 <elliott> (array N ->value) accesses the Nth value
20:13:57 <tswett> Eh, just use pointer arithmetic.
20:14:08 <elliott> where zero is the null string, and SN is .valueN
20:14:16 <elliott> tswett: pointers can only be of finite size
20:14:20 <elliott> so that can't address the thing fully
20:14:29 <elliott> in fact, you can't even do &infarray
20:14:33 <elliott> because pigeonhole principle
20:14:46 <tswett> If infinite_array is viable, so are arbitrarily large pointers. :P
20:14:57 <elliott> sizeof(ptr) has to be finite
20:15:14 <tswett> Yes, but so does sizeof(infinite_array), no?
20:15:15 <elliott> because char has to be finitely-sized in hosted implementations because of CHAR_BIT
20:15:27 <elliott> sizeof should return a float
20:15:30 <elliott> so you can just return +inf
20:15:38 <tswett> sizeof should return a cardinal number, so you can just return aleph_0.
20:15:49 <elliott> then you could implement turkey bomb too
20:16:23 <tswett> Now, suppose you have a type like this: struct infinite_tree { bit value; struct infinite_tree left; struct infinite_array right; };
20:16:51 <tswett> The pointers required to address all of those things will have the order type x where x = 1 + x + x.
20:17:12 <tswett> Rational numbers work perfectly well for that.
20:17:51 <tswett> tree is at position 1. tree.left and tree.right are at positions 2 and 3. tree.left.left and tree.left.right are at positions 2 1/2 and 2 2/3.
20:17:56 <elliott> so you should have char value;
20:18:10 <tswett> I was just copying you. You copycat.
20:18:31 <elliott> hey maybe i should write an irc bot in idst
20:19:05 <tswett> elliott, I think we have the potential to develop a great synergy. We can really leverage this.
20:19:28 <elliott> Yeah, she can really be leveraged hur hur
20:20:04 <tswett> No, the synergy. We can leverage the synergy to develop solutions.
20:20:57 <elliott> tswett: But can we do the needful?
20:21:26 <tswett> elliott: think outside the box. Push the envelope.
20:21:54 <elliott> Be humanistically synergised.
20:22:06 <elliott> (What is even the going on.)
20:22:41 <elliott> yay, cola has been modified recently
20:23:03 <tswett> With our humanistically collaborative synergy utilized, we can open new windows to... I have no idea what I'm talking about, so I'll talk about something else.
20:23:14 <tswett> What I want to do, I guess, is take this stream of characters and turn it into a stream of lines.
20:23:53 <cheater99> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxidKnDXwd4
20:25:13 <elliott> <tswett> What I want to do, I guess, is take this stream of characters and turn it into a stream of lines.
20:25:55 <tswett> What I want is nextLine. :P
20:26:02 <elliott> /home/elliott/idst/object/st80/_object.st:50: WARNING: redefining _sizeof can break object allocation; check _sizeof carefully in all subtypes
20:26:29 <elliott> Gregor: It's part of the primitive object code :P
20:26:48 <elliott> I think that messages implies that EVERY OBJECT should check _sizeof carefully, though, which is hilarious :P
20:27:05 <elliott> tswett: You see, cola is also a better choice for a nomic because you can even edit the structure of a very object from inside!
20:27:11 <elliott> NOMICS WILL WANT TO DO THAT
20:27:27 <tswett> I've heard of cola bottle babies, but I don't know that.
20:27:27 <Gregor> Competition for Plof :P
20:27:28 <elliott> http://piumarta.com/software/cola/ The successor to Smalltalk :P
20:27:42 <elliott> In that Alan Kay runs the VPRI, and cola is the VPRI's project.
20:27:48 <elliott> Gregor: Competition to @ too, it just isn't at that stage yet :P
20:27:59 <elliott> tswett: (1) Completely describes itself in itself.
20:27:59 <tswett> "cola (aka Idst, Jolt, the SODA languages, &c.) is an ongoing project to create a springboard for investigating new computing paradigms." Drat, I should have used "springboard" and "paradigm" up there.
20:28:03 <elliott> tswett: (2) Is completely implemented in itself.
20:28:11 <elliott> tswett: (3) Late-binds, and therefore lets you change, EVERYTHING.
20:28:20 <elliott> Including how objects look in memory.
20:28:20 <tswett> elliott: do you think we can leverage our synergy to create springboards for new solution paradigms?
20:28:37 <elliott> ais523: Can I pay you to bring back PerlNomic?
20:28:54 <elliott> rm -f CodeGenerator-local.st
20:28:55 <elliott> cp -p CodeGenerator-x86_64.st CodeGenerator-local.st
20:28:55 <elliott> cp: cannot stat `CodeGenerator-x86_64.st': No such file or directory
20:28:58 <elliott> THIS ARCHITECTURE DOES NOT FEEL SUPPORTED
20:29:05 <ais523> elliott: if you pay me rent for an appropriate VPS, perhaps
20:29:13 <elliott> No wait, there's no CodeGenerator anything.
20:29:18 <Gregor> C nomic in the form of a self-compiling C compiler: Best idea?
20:29:18 <elliott> ais523: I already have a VPS X-D
20:29:26 <elliott> Gregor: Either that, or worst idea :P
20:29:35 <Gregor> elliott: Aren't they the same?
20:29:47 <elliott> right, there's only ppc and i386 and arm code generators
20:30:00 <tswett> Dudes, sandboxing is the most important possible codenomic feature.
20:30:12 <elliott> tswett: No, it's the most important possible MOO feature :P
20:30:15 <tswett> Self-modification is utterly unimportant compared to sandboxing.
20:30:37 <elliott> Let's turn Agora into a game of Chess.
20:30:47 <elliott> "This proposal removes proposals."
20:30:51 <tswett> "Checkmate." "Okay, I... uh..."
20:30:52 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:30:57 <Gregor> elliott: BTW, do you know any reason why LXC (lxc.sf.net) plus a non-shitty FUSE unionFS wouldn't be a complete replacement for plash, but more maintainable?
20:31:07 <tswett> "I call for judgement on the statement 'It is possible to call for judgements.'" "FALSE." "Drat."
20:31:10 <Gregor> The observation makes me almost want to write a non-shitty FUSE union FS ...
20:31:10 -!- augur_ has joined.
20:31:15 <elliott> Gregor: lxc depends on cgroups, which I don't like.
20:31:19 <elliott> And I don't think BFS supports.
20:31:26 <elliott> OTOH, I like the idea of cunionfs.
20:31:40 <elliott> So on one hand, I don't want you to switch to that system, but on another, I want cunionfs.
20:32:09 <tswett> elliott: would you happen to know if it's possible to take a stream in Smalltalk and split it into two streams, each producing the same data when read?
20:32:18 <elliott> tswett: Why do you want to do that ...
20:32:29 <Gregor> elliott: Well, the alternative is to carve out the part of plash that depends on glibc and swap it out for a FUSE union FS.
20:32:34 <tswett> So that if something wants to listen to the stream, you can just hand it a stream.
20:32:38 <tswett> Maybe that's not the way to do this.
20:32:47 <elliott> Gregor: That would work, but also sounds fairly pointless :P
20:32:53 <elliott> Gregor: But it would give me what I want :P
20:33:04 <elliott> Gregor: I would suggest writing it as an actual kernel module for lower latency though >_>
20:33:51 <elliott> cola totally needs to use a build system written in cola.
20:34:03 <tswett> Ooh, I just got the BEST IDEA.
20:34:15 <Gregor> elliott: The advantages of FUSE are: 1) The only root part is still just a program to do the chroot/setuid, and 2) I don't have to worry about enforcing permissions other than the ones requested :P
20:34:36 <tswett> We should have a bunch of codenomics in Smalltalk. Each codenomic should periodically pick a random class name, and copy that class out from another codenomic to itself.
20:34:42 <elliott> Gregor: Well, Kitten would kinda want to use a cunionfs / :P
20:35:02 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, SPS wanted a cunionfs /usr :P
20:35:17 <tswett> So, Cola is completely self-describing. Does that mean that from the inside, the system looks as if it's interpreting itself?
20:35:26 <elliott> Gregor: And FUSE for that sounds ... un-nice.
20:35:35 <elliott> tswett: And it doesn't just LOOK like it, it IS.
20:35:40 <elliott> Cola's compiler is written in Cola :P
20:35:45 <Gregor> Sun Microsystems introduced the first implementation of a stacked, layered file system with copy-on-write, whiteouts (hiding files in lower layers from higher layers), etc. as the Translucent File Service in SunOS 3, circa 1986.[4]
20:35:59 <elliott> I believe there's still a "runtime" in C, but as described in their paper,
20:36:05 <elliott> the runtime doesn't define or control the object model.
20:36:11 <tswett> elliott: okay, so... it's a lot like Smalltalk, isn't it.
20:36:11 <elliott> http://piumarta.com/software/cola/objmodel2.pdf
20:36:22 <elliott> tswett: It's like Smalltalk, except not failing at its goals.
20:36:40 <elliott> tswett: Remember, this project is by Alan Kay's company, and I'm assuming you know who he is :P
20:36:41 * tswett opens up a typing practice program, and is asked to type "anesthetist house distensions nooned unstated outsets standouts nineteenths . . ."
20:36:54 <elliott> Smalltalk defines a rigid in-memory layout to all its objects.
20:36:56 <tswett> I think this program's estimate of my typing speed is going to be... inaccurate.
20:37:00 <elliott> That cannot be changed at all.
20:37:05 <tswett> Alan Kay. He's that guy who sounds like LNK.
20:37:12 <elliott> tswett: He's the guy who invented Smalltalk >_<
20:38:38 <elliott> stupidest named target ever
20:38:46 <elliott> hmm, there looks to be 64-bit support too but i guess it sucks
20:38:54 <Gregor> Maybe the builtin UnionFS is actually sufficient by now ...
20:39:15 <Gregor> OHWAITNOBLEH the whole issue is that I need to make sure it has /host user/ permissions, not /guest user/ permissions
20:39:32 <elliott> tswett: Also "However, I am no big fan of Smalltalk either, even though it compares very favourably with most programming systems today (I don’t like any of them, and I don’t think any of them are suitable for the real programming problems of today, whether for systems or for end-users)." --Alan Kay :P
20:39:43 <elliott> cola is basically meant to fix the fact that Smalltalk doesn't late-bind EVERYTHING.
20:39:53 <elliott> By doing so, it ends up being completely self-reflective and self-implemented.
20:40:30 <elliott> Gregor: I think FreeBSD jails might work for you, btw
20:40:35 <elliott> Gregor: (prgmr can do BSD :P)
20:40:36 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, they would.
20:40:48 <Gregor> elliott: prgmr can do NET
20:40:55 <Gregor> They might be Freeable but Idonno.
20:40:57 <elliott> Gregor: It can do anything Xen can.
20:41:11 <elliott> Gregor: There are sites with loads of howto-do-OS-blah-on-Xen things.
20:41:24 <Gregor> Well, what I mean is that there exist instructions on how to install NetBSD within an existing Linux without momentarily breaking out of Xen to start an install :P
20:41:43 <tswett> "Testates"? What does that word mean?
20:41:45 <elliott> Gregor: You could use the updated depenguinator :P
20:42:03 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2008-01-29-depenguinator-2.0.html
20:42:11 <elliott> But it doesn't have Xen-specific things :P
20:42:33 <elliott> Gregor: 2008-01, updated enough for me
20:42:39 <Gregor> Frankly if I switched to FreeBSD, it would be Debian GNU/kFreeBSD. My experience with the FreeBSD userland has been "OH GOD WHY"
20:43:11 <elliott> Gregor sees a nasty userland and thinks "hey, GNU would be so much nicer" :-P
20:43:25 <elliott> FreeBSD is all "OH GOD WHY"
20:43:30 <elliott> But with GNU it's all "OH GOD WHY STOP BURNING MY CHILDREN"
20:43:33 <elliott> and I'm an extreme masochist.
20:43:41 <Gregor> No matter what your silly opinion is, GNU currently has the best console tools that exist.
20:43:56 <Gregor> (My silly opinion :P )
20:44:12 <elliott> There are plenty of tools better than GNU's, they're just not in convenient packages :P
20:44:26 <Gregor> OK, let me make a more concrete statement:
20:44:38 <elliott> "Every non-GNU program sux"
20:44:39 <Gregor> Nearly every GNU userland tool is better than its FreeBSD equivalent.
20:44:48 <elliott> What? I can't troll that statement.
20:45:05 <elliott> /usr/bin/ld: skipping incompatible /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.4.5/../../../libreadline.so when searching for -lreadline
20:45:05 <elliott> /usr/bin/ld: skipping incompatible /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.4.5/../../../libreadline.a when searching for -lreadline
20:45:31 <elliott> I wish distros had competent multiple-architecture support that used qemu.
20:45:43 <elliott> Then a sane 32-bit environment would just be s/qemu-x86_64/linux32/
20:47:04 <tswett> "Done with lesson 2! You typed 100 words in approximately 10 minutes."
20:47:20 <elliott> Are you really that terrible?
20:47:58 <Gregor> Can mount --bind be -o ro?
20:48:41 <tswett> elliott: only with Dvorak.
20:48:52 <elliott> [~/gregorsucks]% sudo mount --bind -o ro a b 1
20:48:52 <elliott> mount: warning: b seems to be mounted read-write.
20:49:00 <tswett> I'm using ten letters of the alphabet to type words that are, on average, ten letters long. Double that to get my actual typing speed with those ten letters.
20:49:08 <elliott> [~/gregorsucks]% echo hello >b/b
20:49:21 <Gregor> My usual plash setup isn't actually unioning anything :P
20:49:22 <tswett> Assuming that a word is actually five letters long on average and spaces take no time to type.
20:49:44 <tswett> elliott: how would you have lots of things listening to one stream?
20:49:51 <elliott> tswett: Why would you have that?
20:50:02 <elliott> I would have the bot read each line, then give it to everyone who's said they want to listen to lines. Possibly in threads.
20:51:13 <elliott> tswett: Rule of thumb: Objects should be the only point of access to their members'... "features" :P
20:51:26 <elliott> In this case, "getting lines from IRC".
20:51:32 <elliott> And the object is the bot connection object.
20:51:54 <elliott> "I have some ideas for a website but I don't have any skills in the realm of web development. Is there a site I can submit an idea to that will uphold my potential rights and ensure that no one implements my idea without consulting me first?"
20:52:04 <elliott> And I thought copyright couldn't get any worse.
20:52:14 <tswett> elliott: yes, the United States Patent and Trademark Office.
20:52:26 <elliott> tswett: You can't copyright the idea for something, only an implementation.
20:52:26 <olsner> is elliott trying to say that uncle tswett has accessed his privates?
20:52:30 <elliott> He readily admits he can't implement it.
20:52:43 <tswett> elliott: really? Don't software companies patent ideas all the time?
20:52:49 <elliott> tswett: Or do you mean "you can do it in practice, just you shouldn't be able to"
20:53:02 <elliott> I thought you were saying that it was a proper avenue to do it :p
20:53:27 <tswett> What do you think of overriding #new so that it throws an error, and using a keyword message to create new objects?
20:53:30 <elliott> "I meant that it would be quite depressing for someone else to create a website with the same idea, that's all." ;; I wonder if this guy is trolling
20:53:38 <elliott> It would be really sad if someone did this thing that I can't, so it should be made illegal!
20:53:45 <elliott> It's wrooooooooong for people to think things that I've thought!
20:53:57 <elliott> tswett: Make #new private instead.
20:54:08 <elliott> tswett: OTOH, that may break the common idiom:
20:54:23 <elliott> <tab>foo: initialisationStuff;
20:54:27 <Gregor> elliott: http://sprunge.us/TSfJ LINUX: ONLY THE FINEST IN LOGIC
20:54:36 <tswett> (Replace something with something; I'm too lazy to tell you what.)
20:54:43 <elliott> Gregor: Uhhhhhhhhhhhh, wow.
20:55:00 <elliott> tswett: Why'd you want to do it?
20:55:07 <elliott> I mean, I think it's as simple as actually I have no idea.
20:55:11 <elliott> Wait, you can't have private methods in Smalltalk.
20:55:30 <elliott> tswett: But yeah, what does your keyword initialiser do that makes you want to ban plain new?
20:55:59 <tswett> elliott: well, I'd like this object to represent a connection to IRC, and... hm.
20:56:41 <tswett> Is that better than connectTo:host:port:et:cetera:?
20:56:55 <elliott> Because you shouldn't be able to set them afterwards.
20:57:02 <Gregor> elliott: HALP, I'm starting to become convinced that bind mounts + chroot/setuid are all I need X-D
20:57:05 <tswett> So how I'm currently doing things is perfect. Excellent.
20:57:23 <elliott> With connectTo: using the reasonable default.
20:57:43 <elliott> tswett: Just nicer naming IMO
20:57:48 <elliott> conn := IRCConnection new.
20:57:54 <elliott> conn connectTo: 'irc.freenode.net' onPort: secret.
20:57:58 <tswett> withPort:withNick:withChannel:
20:58:18 <tswett> connectTo:withThePortConnectedToBeingThePortNumbered:
20:58:24 <elliott> conn := IRCConnection new.
20:58:30 <elliott> conn connectTo: 'irc.freenode.net' onPort: secret.
20:58:37 <elliott> nickname: should automatically decide whether it's connected or not :P
20:58:42 <tswett> Ooh, a nickname: message. I definitely need that.
20:58:45 <elliott> And send a NICK message if it is.
20:58:50 <elliott> If not, connectTo:onPort: will send it.
20:58:59 <elliott> tswett: And of course join: and part:
20:59:19 <elliott> connectTo: 'irc.freenode.net' onPort: secret;
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21:00:14 <elliott> Also connectTo should probably return immediately, rather than waiting for the network to reply or whatever.
21:01:10 <tswett> It doesn't wait for any replies, I think. So we're good.
21:01:59 <elliott> Are you using Squeak or Pharo or what?
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21:02:51 <elliott> <elliott> Are you using Squeak or Pharo or what?
21:04:25 <tswett> Specifically, one of the former two.
21:05:01 <tswett> What should join: do when we're not connected? Throw an error?
21:05:07 <tswett> Add it to the list of channels we should be in?
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21:11:26 <elliott> tswett: And part: should remove it... technically I think basically everything should work before you connect, including PRIVMSG.
21:11:33 <elliott> So you could say what you want to happen immediately after connect, then tell it to actually connect.
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21:13:28 <elliott> ais523: hmm, you can't pass a structure to a varargs function, can you?
21:13:35 <elliott> or can you, if you also pass its size?
21:13:57 <ais523> in va_arg, you have to specify what type the arg is
21:14:10 <elliott> yes, but let's assume that you specify the right type
21:14:10 <ais523> and it could calculate the size from that
21:14:21 <elliott> ais523: but e.g. you can't pass a float to a variadic function
21:14:24 <elliott> because it gets upconverted to double
21:14:34 <ais523> I don't think floats get upconverted to anything
21:14:46 <elliott> ais523: um, yes, they do, for varargs
21:14:57 <elliott> http://c-faq.com/varargs/float.html
21:15:03 <elliott> A: In the variable-length part of variable-length argument lists, the old ``default argument promotions'' apply: arguments of type float are always promoted (widened) to type double, and types char and short int are promoted to int. Therefore, it is never correct to invoke va_arg(argp, float); instead you should always use va_arg(argp, double). Similarly, use va_arg(argp, int) to retrieve arguments which were originally char, short, or int. (For an
21:15:03 <elliott> us reasons, the last ``fixed'' argument, as handed to va_start, should not be widenable, either.) See also questions 11.3 and 15.2.
21:15:07 <ais523> *structs get upconverted
21:15:13 <ais523> I know floats get upconverted, just typoed that they didn't
21:15:32 <elliott> OK, I thnk you can write a generic stack_push, but only in C99
21:15:57 <elliott> or even if you can, it might be illegal to say
21:16:01 <elliott> va_arg(ap, char[obj_size])
21:17:19 <elliott> void stack_push_(void *stack, ssize_t *ptr, size_t obj_size, ...)
21:17:20 <elliott> data = va_arg(ap, char[obj_size]);
21:17:24 <elliott> memcpy(stack + ptr, data, obj_size);
21:17:30 <elliott> ais523: behold the probably-invalid Cthulian horror
21:18:36 <elliott> Gregor knows these things!
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21:20:39 <fizzie> Looks like a valid VLA in general.
21:21:44 <elliott> hmm, darn, I think this will fail if a pointer to an element is smaller than (void *)
21:22:35 <elliott> and I need a typeof too! oh woe!
21:23:01 <elliott> otoh i could re-evaluate stack
21:23:36 <elliott> and wait, stack_push could just be a macro in general...
21:24:42 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/hRjV ;; an exercise in pointless
21:25:36 <fizzie> In any case you can only portably call va_arg when the specified type is compatible with the actual type of the corresponding provided argument (after the default argument promotions); and "compatible type" is a rather strict requirement.
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21:25:41 <tswett> I just realized that in Smalltalk, you can save the world.
21:26:40 <elliott> fizzie: Unfortunately types aren't values you can pass around :P
21:27:38 <tswett> Does Smalltalk have a nice way to denote a throwaway argument, like Haskell?
21:27:58 <elliott> tswett: You shouldn't have them. Why do you have them?
21:28:06 <elliott> (I realise I'm being annoyingly X-Y-problem here.)
21:28:20 <fizzie> Also the type in va_arg needs to be named such that simply postfixing a * makes a pointer to that type, and "char[obj_size]*" doesn't seem to be anything sensible.
21:28:35 <elliott> fizzie: WELL YOU MAKE IT WORK THEN :P
21:29:11 <tswett> elliott: because ifNotNilDo: takes a block that accepts one argument.
21:29:12 <fizzie> I have a feeling making it work completely portably is just not possible. (You need not have a general sort of stack to have a C, after all.)
21:29:23 <elliott> tswett: Does [foo] not work as a block?
21:29:33 <tswett> elliott: it doesn't work as a block that accepts one argument.
21:29:37 <elliott> tswett: Also, it seems ifNotNilDo was removed from Pharo.
21:29:50 <tswett> That's strange, because I'm using it.
21:29:53 <elliott> In Pharo it’s been fixed long ago, and today somebody removed all sends of ifNotNilDo:, so the era of one of my “major small Squeak annoyances” finally completely ends today and ifNotNilDo: is history, at least in Pharo.
21:30:05 <elliott> anObject ifNotNil: [:obj | obj doThing].
21:30:08 <elliott> tswett: Don't throw away the argument.
21:30:17 <elliott> I don't know why you're meant to use the parameter.
21:30:24 <tswett> Even though obj is always the same as anObject?
21:30:31 <elliott> fizzie: Err, it's not about the C stack.
21:30:41 <elliott> tswett: maybe it's not guaranteed to be! Who knows.
21:32:03 <fizzie> elliott: Yes, I see (now); but still, you could for example have an argument-passing system where floats and ints go to different stacks, and then va_arg'ing them without knowing the type's not going to be very easy.
21:32:32 <fizzie> If you're okay with only pushing objects you can take & of, you could have your macro provide sizes and pointers-to, but then you couldn't push literals.
21:32:46 <fizzie> Though was it possible to take & of a compound literal?
21:33:20 <elliott> If you could somehow auto-declare a temp variable to use, you could & that. :p
21:34:31 <fizzie> "drawline(&(struct point){.x=1, .y=1}, &(struct point){.x=3, .y=4});" is listed as an example call when drawline expects a pointer to struct point.
21:35:08 <fizzie> So maybe your macro could wrap "x" to &(struct { typeof(x) field; }){ .field = x }.
21:35:53 <elliott> fizzie: Not if the declarer thing included a dummy
21:35:58 <elliott> struct dummy { type field; };
21:36:13 <elliott> And then malloced it to avoid the inevitable initialisation.
21:37:24 <fizzie> I think there was some sort of a rule that offsetof of the first struct member must be 0, so you should be able to then take that pointer and read sizeof(x) bytes out of it. (Though you need to cast it to a known pointer type before passing, either a void * or a char *.)
21:37:49 <elliott> hey, they're maintaining the squeak os again
21:38:25 <elliott> fizzie: The main thing was to avoid reevaluating the arguments. "So yeah."
21:38:42 <tswett> Is initialize supposed to call super initialize?
21:39:11 <tswett> Then again, maybe not.
21:40:38 <tswett> elliott: should the initialize message I define call super initialize?
21:40:55 <elliott> tswett: Look at some subclass' initialize message, see if it does :P
21:40:58 <elliott> I think so but don't recall.
21:44:03 <tswett> Why yes, I do super initialize.
21:45:05 <elliott> More like SuperLAMEISES!!!!!!~!!!!!!!!\
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21:46:14 <elliott> tswett: Is it not joining here any more?
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21:47:05 <tswett> I haven't run it yet. :P
21:48:38 <elliott> tswett: Dudes, you totally need to make it so you can MODIFY IT WHILE IT RUNS
21:48:56 <elliott> tswett: Are you still making it hang or are you "[bot connect] fork"ing :P
21:49:06 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.cracked.com/blog/exploring-the-mysteries-of-the-mind-with-the-sims-3/
21:49:19 <tswett> elliott: I'm still making it hang.
21:49:33 <elliott> tswett: Make the bot die and do that instead :P
21:49:50 <tswett> What do you mean, make the bot die? I haven't run it yet.
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23:48:29 <Sgeo> tswett, this isn't a MUD
23:49:54 <Sgeo> It's not a dungeon. Although I think myndzi would disagree \m/ \m/
23:53:03 <tswett> \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/
23:53:22 <tswett> \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/
23:53:34 <tswett> \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/
23:53:38 <Sgeo> \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/
23:53:42 <Sgeo> \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/
23:53:46 <Sgeo> \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/
23:53:50 <Sgeo> \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/
23:53:53 <Sgeo> \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/
23:54:00 <tswett> \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/
23:54:04 <Sgeo> \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/
23:54:22 <tswett> Well, maybe myndzi's \o/ limit is two \o/ s or something.
23:54:59 <tswett> Or \o/ maybe \o/ they \o/ just \o/ have \o/ to \o/ be \o/ well-separated.
23:55:00 <myndzi> /| /´\ /`\ /`\ /´\ ´¸¨ /|
23:55:13 <tswett> What's that sixth one?
23:58:30 * Sgeo suddenly wants to make a four-dimensional maze in LambdaMOO
00:01:33 <tswett> But every graph is representable in three dimensions.
00:07:30 <fizzie> I seem to recall that you could have two instances of \m/ \m/ on one line... but you do need to leave some space before the first \m/ \m/
00:11:02 <myndzi> < tswett> What's that sixth one?
00:11:49 <myndzi> the limits are fairly straightforward
00:12:13 <myndzi> it won't accept lines that would make it output lines long enough that it increases my throttling score significantly
00:12:22 <myndzi> it won't draw guys that would run into each other (or my name)
00:12:28 <myndzi> and there is a bit of a rate limit
00:13:18 <myndzi> 4d maze sounds interesting
00:13:23 <fizzie> Log-grepping seems to show some rather long ones.
00:13:23 <tswett> \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/
00:13:34 <myndzi> yeah, well, i can break the rules
00:14:00 <myndzi> re: maze; would you have it something like, every movement moves you through the 4th dimension
00:14:04 <myndzi> or you could move at will?
00:14:34 <myndzi> (oh yeah, also the rocker dude needs +1 character on either side)
00:15:13 <myndzi> i remember when i learned that angband took influences from the Amber series
00:15:30 <myndzi> that i was thinking about ways to make a game like that able to implement walking in shadow
00:15:49 <myndzi> some sort of seeded randomization based on a coordinate system was what i wound up with
00:15:59 <myndzi> where you could like, hold a meta-key while moving
00:16:04 <myndzi> and it would also move you on the coordinate system
00:16:20 <myndzi> dunno how you'd generate subtle changes in the environment with significant randomizer changes though
00:17:11 <myndzi> the idea would be to have randomly generated anchor points, solid points in the continuum that you would move towards or away from, or go by closely etc.
00:17:33 <myndzi> and the inbetweens would be generated somehow by a combination of parameters of the nearby anchor points
00:17:42 <myndzi> i think that'd be more interesting than a 4d maze anyway ;)
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00:21:00 <myndzi> have you read the Amber series?
00:22:15 <myndzi> it utilizes the "many worlds" idea
00:22:32 <myndzi> where there are infinite parallel existences you know?
00:22:42 <myndzi> except in this setting, there is one "true" world, Amber
00:22:42 <Zwaarddijk> has anyone made a game in fractal dimensions?
00:22:53 <myndzi> and all the other worlds are somehow lesser; shadows of Amber, if you will
00:23:04 <myndzi> extending outwards towards chaos
00:23:26 <myndzi> the princes of amber have the ability to "walk in shadow" (i think that's how they phrased it?)
00:23:36 <myndzi> which is essentially moving away from the true reality through all the many variants
00:23:50 <myndzi> it involves physical movement and some sort of internal concentration
00:24:14 <myndzi> and knowledge of where you are going; you basically hold in your mind the details and as you travel the world around you adjusts to more closely match those details
00:24:19 <Mathnerd314> I thought there were 2 true realities... order and chaos (one was Amber, the other had some name I forgot)
00:24:22 <myndzi> supposedly arriving at your destination means you have to know to perfection all the details
00:24:25 <fizzie> Yes, that's how they called it; though the Chaos side is considered as "true" as the Amber side, with the shadows in-between, IIRC.
00:24:31 <myndzi> oh yeah, i guess chaos is also a true reality
00:24:51 <myndzi> anyway, the point is to describe what i was getting at in terms of roguelikes ;)
00:25:15 <myndzi> which is the ability to navigate intentionally through "infinite" variants with various notable characteristics
00:25:37 <myndzi> in some fashion that is both programmable and not so obscenely obtuse that you couldn't play it as a game
00:25:45 <myndzi> while trying to stay somewhat true to the source
00:26:09 <myndzi> it shares some traits with the 4d maze idea, which is what brought it back to mind
00:26:53 <myndzi> it also brings to mind certain mechanical mazelike puzzles i've toyed with where certain transitions can be blocked by physical obstacles from your current state
00:27:15 <myndzi> so i don't know how it would fall out with random generation, but you could, say, generate shadows that are hard to arrive at because the things surrounding the path you would take to get there are physically obstructed
00:30:54 <fizzie> Braid does something a (tiny) bit like that w.r.t. time in some of the worlds, at least that one where the X coordinate on-screen is mapped directly to the time coordinate.
00:31:14 <myndzi> oh, i keep forgetting to play Braid
00:31:21 <myndzi> i don't do much gaming, but that one interested me
00:31:30 <quintopia> someone explain to me the following python code:
00:31:32 <quintopia> while v[365] < 0.5: d, v = d+1, [(a*j+b*(366-j))/365. for j,(a,b) in enumerate(zip(v,[0]+v[:-1]))]
00:32:36 <quintopia> more importantly, tell me whether it should correctly calculate the expected number of balls you'd have to toss into 365 bins before you get one ball in each with prob. 1/2
00:35:42 <Sgeo> My 4d maze is a bit banal
00:36:20 <quintopia> what list does that enumerate thing make?
00:44:40 <Sgeo> enumerate(["a", "b", "c"]) is [(0, "a"), (1, "b"), (2, "c")] iirc
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00:50:24 <fizzie> The "for j,(a,b) in enumerate(zip(v,[0]+v[:-1]))" bit will in general have j, a=v[j], b=v[j-1] for j in 0..365, except that for j=0 case b=0.
00:52:02 <tswett> Well, that was anticlimactic.
00:55:53 <Gregor> Welp, won the Halstead award, just in time to not be able to use it for libc.so :P
00:56:09 <fizzie> I can't be bothered to figure out, but perhaps it's maintaining at v[i] the probability that at least i bins have balls in them. That would at least match the initial state and the termination condition.
00:56:14 <tswett> What's the Halstead award?
00:57:20 <quintopia> fizzie: i can't even see where it is changing the value of v
00:58:21 <fizzie> quintopia: d, v = d+1, <new value of v> is the body of the loop.
00:58:45 <quintopia> oh, that's two assignments using the same =
00:59:01 <quintopia> had no idea python could be so hard to read
00:59:02 <fizzie> Yes; that's also done in the initialization.
00:59:36 <fizzie> It sets d = 0, v = [1, 0, 0, ...] where there are 365 zeros.
00:59:44 * quintopia is used to languages where every = identifies a single assignment
01:00:07 <tswett> Languages without multiple assignment are annoying.
01:00:36 <tswett> x, y = y, x; is a better way to swap two variables than tmp = x; x = y; y = tmp;.
01:01:30 <Sgeo> Halstead award?
01:01:44 <fizzie> Gregor: "Thora W. Halstead Young Investigator's Award -- to honor a young scientist who exemplifies Thora’s drive and enthusiasm for science, and who has made significant contributions to the field of space biology." I didn't know you were a space biologist!
01:02:02 <Gregor> Wrong Halstead award X_X
01:04:10 <fizzie> Then you must be talking about Halstead Property, LLC, a real estate company.
01:04:40 <fizzie> "The E. Bayard Halsted Scholarship In Science, History and Journalism"?
01:04:50 <Gregor> Yup. They awarded me ¾ of Somalia.
01:06:05 -!- tswettbot has joined.
01:07:38 <tswett> Wait, my GUI's unfrozen. How is this?
01:07:57 -!- tswettbot2 has joined.
01:08:22 <fizzie> Aw, I missed my chance to do "I didn't know you were a jewelry artist" ("Through a generous gift from Halstead Bead Inc., scholarships are available for jewelry artists who want to receive business training in the Visiting Artist Program of the Buyers Market of American Craft.") due to stupid relevance-ordered search results.
01:09:02 <tswett> Now my GUI's frozen again.
01:09:19 <tswett> I wonder if it will unfreeze the moment tswettbot pings out.
01:09:29 <tswett> Which ought to be... soonish.
01:09:40 <tswett> Let's talk about fun things in the interim!
01:09:53 <tswett> Like gelatinous spheres filled with liquid.
01:10:22 -!- tswettbot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:10:34 <tswett> Nope, I still don't have my GUI.
01:10:55 -!- tswettbot2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:13:38 * tswett runs the current version of his bot, and takes a guess at what's happening.
01:14:35 <tswett> 1. The bot connects to freenode. 2. The bot sends all its messages to freenode. 3. The expression finishes running. 4. The bot is garbage collected. 5. The finalizer for SocketStream closes the connection. 6. freenode goes, "what the hell did you do that for?".
01:18:17 -!- copumpkin has joined.
01:19:37 -!- tswettbot has joined.
01:19:47 <tswett> There, tswettbot can send messages now.
01:20:01 <tswett> And I can dismiss it at any time simply by saying, "I dismiss you, tswettbot".
01:20:02 -!- tswettbot has quit (Client Quit).
01:20:04 -!- catseye has joined.
01:21:00 -!- catseye has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | Catch sufficiently hello world. | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html (+Etcha +fixes) | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
01:21:17 <tswett> Let's see what happens if I put that in the topic.
01:21:23 -!- tswett has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | Catch sufficiently hello world. | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html (+Etcha +fixes) | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | I dismiss you, tswettbot..
01:21:42 * tswett waits for freenode's annoying thingy to time out.
01:21:47 -!- tswettbot has joined.
01:21:47 -!- tswettbot has quit (Client Quit).
01:22:06 <tswett> Actually, I'm not sure what I expected.
01:22:11 -!- tswett has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | Catch sufficiently hello world. | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html (+Etcha +fixes) | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
01:22:23 <tswett> So you can ban tswettbot from the channel by putting that in the topic. :P
01:25:43 -!- catseye has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | Catch sufficiently hello world. | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html (+Etcha +fixes) | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | tswettbot: join #python!.
01:25:54 <catseye> perhaps I am hoping for too much, there
01:28:28 -!- catseye has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | Catch sufficiently hello world. | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html (+Etcha +fixes) | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
01:31:38 <tswett> tswettbot knows that the people in #python probably wouldn't be happy to see it.
01:31:52 <tswett> You know, in Smalltalk, I'm still not clear on the difference between using a caret and not using a caret.
01:32:09 <catseye> tswett: shall I assume it's written in Smalltalk?
01:32:38 <catseye> I would certainly *like* for that to be true.
01:33:35 <tswett> It looks like there's no difference in a block, since a block always returns whatever its last statement returns, but in a method, using a caret makes it return the last statement's return value, and not using a caret makes it return self.
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01:46:22 <Sgeo> tswett, are you using Pharo or Squeak or something else?
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01:47:42 <oklopol> i take a 12 hour nap and suddenly you people have talked here for lines and lines
01:47:46 -!- tswettbot has joined.
01:47:48 <oklopol> i'm not gonna read any of it
01:48:15 <tswett> Let's see how bad my off-by-one errors are.
01:48:21 <tswett> hey tswettbot, say something.
01:48:28 <oklopol> if you said anything worth hearing during those hours, please resay it
01:48:31 <tswett> You know what, I think I forgot to make it a PRIVMSG. :P
01:48:39 <tswett> hey tswettbot, say PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay.
01:48:44 <tswett> hey tswettbot, say PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay.
01:49:05 <oklopol> are you trying to write a bot?
01:49:44 <tswett> It crashed, causing a debugger to open. Whenever a debugger is opened, it crashes, causing another debugger to open.
01:49:55 <tswett> The result is that there are now dozens of debuggers open.
01:50:03 <tswett> This is why I save the image before running the bot.
01:50:25 -!- tswettbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:50:51 <tswett> Dear Pharo: ???. Love, tswett.
01:51:16 -!- tswettbot has joined.
01:51:28 <tswett> Okay. It hasn't crashed yet. That's good.
01:51:35 <tswett> Yep, still no crashing.
01:51:52 <tswett> Maybe it will crash when I say "hey tswettbot, say ".
01:52:01 <copumpkin> tswett: got tired of category theory, eh? :
01:54:17 <tswett> I like to study more than one topic. :)
01:54:41 <Sgeo> When you go to run the bot, what exactly are you doing? Running code in a workspace?
01:55:45 -!- tswettbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:57:27 <oklopol> tswett: i bet i draw my commuting diagrams with much prettier lines than you
01:58:49 -!- augur has joined.
01:59:12 <oklopol> you're better off writing bots u'll never learn to draw them quite as neatly as me
01:59:16 <tswett> There could be something horribly wrong with this code:
01:59:17 <tswett> line := stream nextLine.
01:59:17 <tswett> line isEmpty ifTrue: [false] ifFalse: [msgHandlers do: [:handler | handler bot: self heard: line]. true].
01:59:33 <tswett> (And this is #esoteric. We paste five lines here.)
01:59:55 <tswett> It declares a local variable called line.
02:00:15 <oklopol> variable: are you local or global?
02:00:23 <tswett> variable: I know. It will be all right.
02:01:09 <oklopol> variable: you guys are bad for the environment
02:01:09 <tswett> I set x to the current continuation.
02:01:26 <variable> oklopol: not really. I'm only *considered* harmful
02:03:28 <oklopol> *didn't keep wulf's secrets one time too many
02:03:37 <oklopol> (had to check who wrote that)
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02:04:27 <tswett> tswettbot: what? Where did you come from?
02:04:31 <tswett> You errored out, remember?
02:04:39 <olsner> me too! I'm sending a message!
02:04:47 <tswett> Do you respond to things?
02:05:02 <tswett> hey tswettbot, say something and crash.
02:05:11 <tswett> I dismiss you, tswettbot.
02:05:12 <oklopol> "<tswettbot> I am sending a message." it's like it's alive
02:05:23 <tswett> Nope, he's not handling messages. I guess he's going to stay here forever.
02:05:36 <tswett> Wait, why hasn't he been garbage collected? Maybe this debugger is keeping him alive.
02:06:01 <tswett> I... maybe there's a local variable containing him?
02:06:26 <oklopol> maybe variable wanted to revenge you summoning him
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02:20:37 <storkbot> catseye: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help.
02:20:44 <storkbot> catseye: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto tell source errors
02:21:09 <catseye> heh, it still works. after i took out all that stuff i put in to try to get it to persist its state.
02:21:22 <catseye> last time I grab lua code off a wiki, I tell you
02:23:02 <storkbot> catseye: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help.
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02:38:47 <variable> Tachycek: welcome to #esoteric
02:39:16 <variable> Tachycek: 90% of the time the topic has nothing to do with programming
02:39:18 <Tachycek> well i would think in this channel whitespace seems quite ordinary :D
02:39:22 <oklopol> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
02:39:25 <variable> but 90% of the time the topic is interesting
02:39:44 <ais523> Tachycek: it's the same sort of thing as everything else
02:39:52 <oklopol> he was making a joke about silence i think
02:40:31 <Sgeo> Newspeak got me temporarily interested in programming again
02:40:40 <Sgeo> But it's still not all that mature
02:40:48 <Sgeo> Maybe I should take up Smalltalk again
02:40:55 <oklopol> i'm on a programming course so i might actually have to program a bit soonish :\
02:41:45 <Tachycek> but i didn't see any working serious implementation of it :)
02:41:56 <Sgeo> Tachycek, might want to put on some asbestos clothes
02:43:35 <Tachycek> the logs of this channel are public?
02:44:00 <variable> Tachycek: I know, it put me off at the start too
02:44:08 <variable> Tachycek: ditto - hence the nick
02:45:14 <oklopol> there's currently a picture of me online :|
02:45:34 <oklopol> i won't tell you where before i ask them to remove it though
02:45:47 <Tachycek> variable: yes, there are few things and they were touched several years ago
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02:46:45 <variable> add this channel to autojoin though
02:47:02 <Tachycek> if i figure out what to do with the nick i will :)
02:47:55 <Tachycek> dont like link ip->nick either :)
02:54:42 <oklopol> http://www.math.utu.fi/henkilokunta/?userID=810 me and my giant hand
02:56:36 <oklopol> my full name is oklopol ominovorol
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03:21:37 <Gregor> You know what they say about guys with big hands.
03:22:42 <oklopol> that they even masturbate with just fat chicks
03:25:31 <zzo38> Gilman naming for pieces in chess variants includes all sorts of prefixes, suffixes, modified names, and possibly some pieces can have multiple names with same piece
03:26:07 <oklopol> in a forest nearby, there is this tree that is kinda crooked
03:26:40 <Sgeo> Wait. Are tensors just n-dimensional matrices?
03:26:45 <Sgeo> (looking at Wikipedia)
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03:27:29 <oklopol> i don't know what a "tensor" is, unless it's a vector in a tensor product
03:28:19 <zzo38> Sgeo: Something like that. Tensors have two kinds of dimension, too, one which acts like rows in a matrix and one which acts like columns in a matrix, I think.
03:29:42 <zzo38> I find use of diagrammatic tensor notation can be useful with computing tensors, too.
03:29:45 <oklopol> okay yeah it's what i think it is
03:30:05 <oklopol> Sgeo: a space of tensors is just another vector space, the point is there are two vector spaces whose tensor product it is.
03:30:20 <oklopol> if you just look at the tensor space alone, it's just another vector space
03:30:44 <oklopol> but saying "what, tensors are just vectors??" is like saying "what, the product of two numbers is just another number?"
03:31:21 <olsner> the product of two numbers can also be the same number as one or both of them
03:31:33 <oklopol> olsner: same for the tensor product
03:31:41 <oklopol> kind of like direct product, the tensor product is a way to construct another vector space from two spaces
03:31:54 <olsner> yay! I know a thing about the tensor product now
03:32:09 <oklopol> olsner: the result can be isomorphic to one of the components
03:32:40 <Sgeo> This went over my head as soon as you said space, I think. Or maybe product
03:32:50 <oklopol> Sgeo: you don't know vector spaces?
03:33:03 <Sgeo> I know vectors
03:33:39 <oklopol> vector spaces are just an axiomatization of your usual vectors in R^n
03:34:43 <oklopol> you have a field (field = axiomatization of R...) of scalars, and you have a group on which they act from the left in certain natural ways
03:35:03 <oklopol> anyhow you can do tensor products without the axioms
03:35:13 <zzo38> In tensor diagrams, components laid out horizontally are multiplied using tensor product and vertical ones using matrix product, according to which lines touch each other. Sometimes instead of diagram you use inline math such as $X^a_{bc}Y^{cb}_d$
03:35:44 <Sgeo> I'm honestly not even paying attention right now
03:36:17 <Sgeo> This is way over my head for casual glances, and I can't do more than casual glances right now
03:36:55 <oklopol> the point is if you have an n-dimensional space with basis e_1, ..., e_n and an m-dimensional space with basis f_1, ..., f_m, then you get another mn-dimensional space with vectors (e_1, f_1), (e_1, f_2), ..., (e_1, f_m), (e_2, f_1), ..., (e_n, f_m), which you can think of as the vector space of m x n matrices
03:37:53 <oklopol> Sgeo: no problem, i'm not trying to teach you right now
03:38:13 <oklopol> just saying stuff because it's fun
03:38:41 <oklopol> i have no idea what zzo38 is saying though
03:38:56 <oklopol> "components laid out horizontally are multiplied using tensor product"
03:39:07 <zzo38> oklopol: But I am saying too, and so are you are also correct too
03:39:18 <zzo38> oklopol: I mean in a tensor diagram.
03:39:28 <oklopol> i don't know what those are, sry
03:39:33 <zzo38> (Sometimes tensor multiplications are written using diagrams)
03:42:40 <oklopol> let U and V be vector spaces, then the tensor product of U and V is a vector space W and an associated bilinear function * : UxV -> W such that if e_1, ..., e_n is a basis of U and f_1, ..., f_m is a basis of V, then (e_i*f_j) is a basis of W
03:43:03 <oklopol> it can be proven that such (W, *) always exists, and is unique up to isomorphism (that part is obvious)
03:45:35 <oklopol> the point is to get the following universal property: if f is a bilinear function from UxV to some space X, then there exists unique g : W -> X such that f(u, v) = g(u*v) for all u \in U, v \in V, where W is the tensor product of U and V, and * is the bilinear map from UxV to W
03:46:03 <oklopol> so all bilinear maps can be "routed" via the tensor product
03:47:16 <oklopol> just like all maps f linear in the sense f(au, av) = af(u, v), f(u + u', v + v') = f(u, v) + f(u', v') can be routed through the *direct* product of U and V
03:47:30 <oklopol> (where again f : UxV -> X for some space X)
03:49:20 <oklopol> but i just know about the representation theoretical implications of the tensor product, presumably it's also useful in physics and shit
03:55:22 <oklopol> the tensor diagram page is way over my head
03:55:57 <zzo38> Yes it is useful in physics
03:57:48 <oklopol> all you need is addition and multiplication and vectors with three components
03:57:59 <oklopol> and sometimes, SOMETIMES, a small group.
03:58:06 <zzo38> You could probably even use tensor diagrams for representing quantum computations. And even the classical electronic circuit with the latch of NAND gates, I converted it to a tensor diagram and then computed its value, I did get the expected result.
03:58:13 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Router failed.).
03:59:04 <oklopol> WELL THAT WAS KIND OF RUDE
04:00:49 -!- zzo38 has joined.
04:02:21 <zzo38> I looked at the log file, the glogbot logs does not have the quit message, it seems?
04:03:13 <oklopol> what does it mean to do "matrix multiplication horizontally"
04:04:00 <oklopol> like, when you have two things next to each other, and draw a line from left to right, then the one on the left is tensor multiplied with the right one?
04:04:53 <oklopol> (and somehow it doesn't matter what bases we use in each phase as long as we always use the same ones?)
04:05:20 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes, like that.
04:06:09 <zzo38> When there are lines on a shape above and below, the lines above are called "arms" and the ones below called "legs"; the way in which the lines cross or connect to the arms/legs of other shapes indicates which order the components are multiplied.
04:09:03 <zzo38> When horizontal, generally there are no lines drawn horizontally, because for example, you have two shapes with lines down and then one shape with two lines up connected to both those, one way to "split the diagram" is to split it at one point and then the ones above the splitting point are tensor multiplied and then that total is matrix multiplied by the one below. The number of remaining unconnected arms/legs is zero, which means the result i
04:09:46 <zzo38> Is understandable good?
04:10:07 <oklopol> "which means the result i"
04:10:27 <zzo38> Sorry, I wrote it wrong. Here I write it correct: Is it understandable with good?
04:10:41 <zzo38> s now a scalar number.
04:10:45 <oklopol> "unconnected arms/legs is zero, which means the result i" then it got cut
04:10:57 <oklopol> or did it really continue ", which means the result is understandable good?"
04:11:18 <zzo38> No, it continued "s now a scalar number." which is why I wrote that just now when I realized what you meant
04:11:52 <oklopol> i have absolutely no idea what a shape with two lines down could represent
04:12:05 <oklopol> or two shapes with two lines between them
04:12:42 <oklopol> or more precisely, i have all kinds of ideas
04:13:01 <zzo38> The tensor diagram does not tell you how many components there are in a vector. However, if there are $n$ components in a vector, $p$ lines above and $q$ lines below in the diagram, it has $n^{p+q}$ components in total. Now is it understandable a bit more?
04:13:28 <oklopol> vector? no one said there were any vectors involved
04:13:41 <oklopol> i have a hunch there is some key point both you and the wp page are missing
04:14:05 <oklopol> which would be obvious if i knew even the tiniest bit about the actual usage of these things
04:14:53 <oklopol> that nothing isn't going to do itself!
04:15:11 <oklopol> well actually i have some stuff i need to do but i guess i just wanted to say that because it was funny
04:15:20 <zzo38> In quantum computation, for example, there is two components in a vector, one for bits being zero, and one for bits being one.
04:16:03 <oklopol> so, if you want to represent n bits, you take a vector of length 2n?
04:16:39 <zzo38> For $n$ bits, you need $2^n$ components.
04:16:47 <zzo38> One for each possible combination.
04:17:16 <oklopol> so then what do you mean by two components
04:18:26 <zzo38> I mean, like, components of a vector! Does this make sense or am I forgetting something?
04:19:01 <zzo38> Except now it is components of the tensor instead, but it is the same kind of thing as components of a vector, or of a matrix.
04:19:27 <oklopol> it doesn't make sense, in a vector you will have 1 component for bits being one or zero, if you have one bit, you will have 4 for two bits etc, in what sense does a vector have *two components per bit*?
04:19:47 <oklopol> one for *all* bits being zero, one for *all* bits being one?
04:21:00 <zzo38> I did not mean a vector has two components per bit. I mean a vector for a single bit has two components. In case of three bits, you tensor multply the three bits together to get a total of eight components.
04:21:32 <oklopol> a single bit can indeed have two states
04:21:55 <oklopol> otherwise computer science would be way easier
04:22:11 <zzo38> And then you can put other numbers in the components, such as square root, and complex numbers, and so on, for quantum superposition states of qubits.
04:23:24 <oklopol> is superposition addition?
04:23:46 <oklopol> or umm what are you saying there
04:24:01 <oklopol> i thought our vectors had complex coordinates to begin with
04:25:13 <oklopol> or maybe i know what you're trying to say
04:25:29 <oklopol> this is damn hard to do informally
04:28:30 <zzo38> You can write a tensor as a matrix, also.
04:31:00 <zzo38> Also also Dirac notation (bra-ket notation).
04:31:23 <zzo38> Is used to represent the state vector.
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04:34:10 <zzo38> I like to use square bracket for matrix writing, so in TeX I can define \def\bmatrix#1{\left[\matrix{#1}\right]}
04:34:33 <zzo38> (Which is similar tp \pmatrix but with [] instead of () as delimiters)
04:34:58 <oklopol> i don't care about notation
04:35:14 <oklopol> argh, why haven't i left yet
04:35:36 <zzo38> If you don't care about notation, how are you going to write the math?
04:35:38 <oklopol> you and your matrical temptations
04:36:27 <oklopol> erm, i suppose if i was doing quantum computation stuff, i'd use the standard notation
04:37:17 <zzo38> Would you use the bra-ket notation?
04:37:36 <oklopol> but sure, i'd give a five second shit to choose the one to use.
04:38:10 <oklopol> perhaps, depends on the length and depth of those five seconds.
04:39:13 <zzo38> Probably if I am writing a TeX document with bra-ket notation I would also make up a macro for it if I use it in my document.
04:43:34 <zzo38> Length and depth of five seconds?
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04:52:12 <zzo38> Someone says that the modern TeX distribution is not properly TeX because it can parse the %& line. However, I think this is not a problem because it will not parse the %& line if the filename is typed at the ** prompt (at least in MiKTeX). But there is a real problem, which is when 18 is used as a file number. It does not turn that off when the ** prompt is used.
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06:43:35 <Vorpal> gah system log monitoring cron scripts broken, and no time to debug it now.
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13:36:12 <elliott> 02:41:24: <Tachycek> i like lolcode :)
13:36:12 <elliott> 02:41:45: <Tachycek> but i didn't see any working serious implementation of it :)
13:36:12 <elliott> 02:41:50: <Tachycek> maybe lolpython
13:36:18 <elliott> Tachyx: BUUUUUUUURN IN A FIERY PIT OF ETERNAL SUFFERING
13:36:29 <elliott> 02:45:14: <oklopol> there's currently a picture of me online :|
13:36:29 <elliott> 02:45:34: <oklopol> i won't tell you where before i ask them to remove it though
13:36:37 <elliott> oklopol: hey we all have one, from the frappr dump :>
13:36:57 <Tachyx> elliott: CAN I HAZ EXPLANATION?
13:37:22 <elliott> Tachyx: yes. everyone in here hates LOLCode and it is the worst and least esoteric language ever and therefore burn in your matrix off solidity
13:37:39 <elliott> also Tachyx Tachycek 81.200.61.23 >__________>
13:38:28 * elliott yawns. in his matrix of solidity.
13:38:37 <elliott> flaming noobs in the morning, what a refreshing start to the day!
13:39:06 <elliott> Tachyx: oh i forgot, hello
13:40:15 <elliott> gonna assume you've been magically pointed to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
13:40:32 <Tachyx> elliott: ok you're flaming i'll be trolling
13:40:36 <Tachyx> elliott: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3n0vBcW5fc
13:40:56 <elliott> THAT WASN'T FLAMING that was me helpfully pointing you to our wiki
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14:01:02 <elliott> { memcpy(self, v__fp, sizeof(double)); }.
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14:38:16 <elliott> Gregor: http://codu.org/myavatar.gif why did you make this
14:38:57 <Gregor> elliott: To be the most annoying avatar imaginable.
14:39:03 <elliott> Gregor: but it's awesome...
14:39:12 <elliott> you should use it. even on irc
14:39:18 <elliott> prefix all your messages with <img src="http://codu.org/myavatar.gif">
14:39:26 <elliott> actually i think limechat has the ability to expand linked images
14:39:30 <elliott> so basically just prefix every message with http://codu.org/myavatar.gif
14:39:42 <elliott> i think linkinius did that too, i guess os x deludes them into thinking it's a good idea
14:39:46 <elliott> anyway, that would be awesome, do it
14:40:19 <elliott> also i logreaded a shitload yesterday for no real reason
14:40:20 <elliott> 16:18:42 <GregorR-L> Go write an interpreter for http://www.codu.org/plof/
14:40:20 <elliott> 16:19:37 <oerjan> pikhq: in the C part for left, right and goto you don't set ::current, something i think might bite you with _goto current.
14:40:20 <elliott> 16:19:56 <pikhq> oerjan: Thanks.
14:40:20 <elliott> 16:20:11 <pikhq> GregorR-L: No thanks.
14:40:21 <elliott> 16:20:17 <pikhq> I'd rather do a real Lisp. :p
14:40:23 <elliott> 16:20:37 <GregorR-L> Plof and lisp aren't particularly similar.
14:40:25 <elliott> 16:21:33 <pikhq> Fixed and up on server.
14:40:27 <elliott> 16:22:00 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Yeah. . . Lisp is worth learning. :p
14:40:37 <elliott> (seconds later it was about how Emacs was an OS lol)
14:40:55 <elliott> I saved this to troll Gregor
14:40:55 <elliott> 09:13:01 <GregorR-W> BSD == better server than GNU/Linux.
14:40:56 <elliott> 09:13:08 <GregorR-W> GNU/Linux, on the other hand == better desktop than BSD
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14:43:50 <elliott> hi cpressey we're doign the best thing
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14:44:28 <cpressey> If I use an image that is licensed w/ a CC "Share Alike" clause on a web page, does that web page count as "building upon" the work of the image, thus requiring to be under a similar license?
14:45:06 <cpressey> I ask here because I know you are all totally lawyers here
14:45:25 <elliott> cpressey: if you use a data: URI, it's like static linking and not allowed
14:45:34 <elliott> if you just use src="...", then it's like dynamic linking, and allowed
14:45:50 <elliott> assuming CC share alike doesn't have special provisions for this, that's the situation
14:46:00 <elliott> linking isn't creating a derivative work, baking it in is
14:46:09 <elliott> cpressey: is it 2.5 or 3.0 :p
14:46:18 * elliott will trawl through the legalese for uh... fun?
14:46:29 <elliott> what country version? or unported?
14:47:00 <elliott> http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/legalcode fuck licenses that start with definitions
14:47:04 <elliott> "Reproduce" means to make copies of the Work by any means including without limitation by sound or visual recordings and the right of fixation and reproducing fixations of the Work, including storage of a protected performance or phonogram in digital form or other electronic medium.
14:47:32 <elliott> "Adaptation" means a work based upon the Work, or upon the Work and other pre-existing works, such as a translation, adaptation, derivative work, arrangement of music or other alterations of a literary or artistic work, or phonogram or performance and includes cinematographic adaptations or any other form in which the Work may be recast, transformed, or adapted including in any form recognizably derived from the original, except that a work that
14:47:32 <elliott> constitutes a Collection will not be considered an Adaptation for the purpose of this License. For the avoidance of doubt, where the Work is a musical work, performance or phonogram, the synchronization of the Work in timed-relation with a moving image ("synching") will be considered an Adaptation for the purpose of this License.
14:47:32 <elliott> "Collection" means a collection of literary or artistic works, such as encyclopedias and anthologies, or performances, phonograms or broadcasts, or other works or subject matter other than works listed in Section 1(f) below, which, by reason of the selection and arrangement of their contents, constitute intellectual creations, in which the Work is included in its entirety in unmodified form along with one or more other contributions, each constit
14:47:37 <elliott> uting separate and independent works in themselves, which together are assembled into a collective whole. A work that constitutes a Collection will not be considered an Adaptation (as defined below) for the purposes of this License.
14:47:47 <elliott> cpressey: give you a license to use it
14:48:21 <elliott> cpressey: is it just attribution-share alike?
14:48:34 <cpressey> http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/deed.en
14:48:41 <cpressey> but really, it was mostly just an example
14:48:52 <elliott> cpressey: oh, so this isn't actually a real case?
14:48:53 <cpressey> its real purpose is to make me loathe creative commons
14:49:07 <elliott> cpressey: well there's http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/ :P
14:49:26 <elliott> less ugly just to remove the requirement from ISC though :-D
14:49:45 <elliott> Permission to use, copy, modify, and/or distribute this software for any
14:49:45 <elliott> purpose with or without fee is hereby unconditionally granted.
14:49:51 <elliott> except that's software specific
14:50:54 <elliott> cpressey: or uh wait, that's just a verbose wtfpl
14:51:45 <cpressey> I could just do what the rest of the internet does and caption other people's kitten photographs without caring about who "owns" them
14:52:44 <elliott> cpressey: TAKE A STAND AGAINST COPYRIGHT
14:52:49 <elliott> CAPTION ANY FUCKING KITTEN PHOTOGRAPH YOU WANT
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14:59:41 <elliott> <elliott> Does including an Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported image on a web page constitute a derivative work that forces the web page to be licensed under the same license?
14:59:41 <elliott> <greg-g> elliott: no, unless some fancy overlays are done. But a typical image and text without any overlap is fine.
14:59:49 <elliott> cpressey: it's even more fucked than i could have possibly imagined!
15:00:12 <elliott> cpressey: so basically i think if you used it as the background to a page that would be close to a grey area
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15:20:21 <Gregor> Finally figured out how hg-git works with git branches.
15:20:25 <Gregor> Now I shall never have to use git again :)
15:21:17 <elliott> On the downside, you still have to use hg.
15:21:33 <Gregor> I think you typo'd, "plus on the upside, you get to use hg"
15:21:50 <elliott> Scapegoat now to be released under the "Everybody Except Gregor Richards" EULA
15:22:06 <elliott> Or maybe just the "I Am Now Going To find . -name .hg -exec rm -rf '{}' \;" EULA :P
15:22:18 <Gregor> I thought that was always the license for Scape🐐
15:22:31 <elliott> EULA, dammit, licenses only cover redistribution. And are also legally valid unlike EULAs.
15:24:56 <Phantom_Hoover> And is named after a toxic metal that causes brain damage.
15:25:44 <Gregor> It's a fun kind of brain damage though.
15:26:05 <Phantom_Hoover> (I want to name something osmium but I don't know what.)
15:26:05 <Gregor> Not like the excruciating pain and slow death as your body breaks down kind of brain damage, at least in small doses.
15:26:26 <elliott> What's the class of languages parseable by recursive-descent?
15:27:06 <Gregor> elliott: ... context-free languages. Recursive-descent essentially has infinite rollback.
15:27:26 <Gregor> Mind you, without memoization it's quite expensive for languages with a lot of ambiguity.
15:28:49 <Gregor> (Also, "recursive descent" is probably not defined precisely enough to restrict it only to context-free languages, but it's certainly at least context-free languages)
15:28:56 <elliott> Gregor: OK, slight rephrase: Parseable with recursive-descent WITHOUT HELLISHNESS :P
15:29:31 <elliott> (Recursive descent may be a pain but it's less of a pain than yacc >_>)
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15:31:15 <elliott> Actually, writing a lexer by hand might be more awful than the combined awfulness of using lex and yacc.
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15:53:36 <Gregor> By-hand lexers are simple ...
15:53:43 <Gregor> I write by-hand lexers all the time ...
15:54:02 <Gregor> If you're really brave you can one-pass your lexer into your recursive-descent parser >: )
15:55:28 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.12 (15.3%): 64k+3x2k+7x1k+4x256+/48 to Australia, 1M+64k+2x16k to China, 8k to Hong Kong, 512 to Indonesia, 128k+2x2k+1k to Japan, 256k+4x64k+/32 to South Korea, 8k to Mongolia, 1k to Malaysia, 4k+/48 to New Zealand, 64k+4k to Philippines, /32 to Tuvalu, /32 to Vanatu.
15:57:50 <Ilari> Depletion estimate: Wednesday 13th April.
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16:04:34 <cpressey> By-hand recursive descent parsers are relaxing to write. Or is that tedious? I guess that depends on my mood.
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16:05:06 <oerjan> it's relaxing in that tedious way
16:05:16 <cpressey> I have one by-hand lexer that I've just copied and pasted into everything, with suitable modifications :)
16:05:44 <cpressey> Languages' tokenization rules don't tend to vary *too* much. Except when they do/
16:06:51 <cpressey> "If I see 'Identifiers start with a letter or underscore and consist only of letters, digits, and underscores' one more time, I'll scream!"
16:11:22 <cpressey> Toss in hyphens and single quotes if you want to get racy.
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16:11:24 <oerjan> > let _6'a = 5 in _6'a
16:11:24 * oerjan cannot recall if haskell adds anything else
16:11:25 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `='
16:11:26 <oerjan> > let (+`-) = 5 in (+`-)
16:11:26 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input ``'
16:11:26 <oerjan> darn it's not an operator character either
16:11:27 <oerjan> yours errored out at = not `
16:13:43 <lambdabot> <no location info>: Parse error in pattern
16:13:45 <cpressey> spaces not good enough for you, huh, haskell?
16:14:00 <oerjan> that depends on lambdabot actually having b defined (for its symbolic Expr's)
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16:14:42 <oerjan> > scanl1 (+) $ repeat b
16:14:43 <lambdabot> [b,b + b,b + b + b,b + b + b + b,b + b + b + b + b,b + b + b + b + b + b,b ...
16:15:49 <cpressey> in Quylthulg I used $ as "identifier quotes" so that identifiers could contain arbitrary characters (except for $) ... and to make it look vaguely reminiscent of TeX
16:16:00 <oerjan> technically let a b = 5 is a function definition and you cannot put parentheses around those
16:16:22 <cpressey> oh, so b is the pattern match. right
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16:16:51 <oerjan> the last bar is a free variable
16:17:21 <cpressey> my mind is working on some way for that not to be the case
16:17:34 <oerjan> you can use about any already defined identifier instead, though
16:17:48 <cpressey> > let foo bar = 5 in foo (foo)
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16:18:02 <cpressey> > let foo foo = 5 in foo (foo)
16:18:20 <cpressey> now i'm all itchin' to write me some obfuscated Haskell
16:18:46 <oerjan> usually you want to use lots of operator identifiers for that
16:18:48 <cpressey> hm, this probably won't work...
16:18:54 <cpressey> > let foo (foo) = 5 in foo (foo)
16:19:23 <cpressey> i guess you can parenthesize it without putting an @ on it
16:20:18 <cpressey> > let (+-) (+-) = 5 in (+-) (+-)
16:21:05 <oerjan> iirc you can do everything with (...operator chars...) that you can do with an ordinary identifier, except put `` around
16:22:14 <cpressey> > let (+-) (+-) (+-) = 5 in (+-) +- (+-)
16:22:17 <oerjan> and vice versa for `...alphanum chars`
16:22:46 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `)'
16:23:04 <cpressey> > let foo foo foo = 5 in (foo) `foo` (foo)
16:23:10 <cpressey> > let foo foo' foo'' = 5 in (foo) `foo` (foo)
16:23:29 <oerjan> it allows you to name a parameter the same as the function but not to name two parameters the same
16:23:53 <oerjan> i guess both of those could have gone either way
16:25:00 <cpressey> > let (+-) a b = a * b in 6 +- 7
16:25:14 <cpressey> > let (+-) a b = a * b in (+-) 6 7
16:25:23 <cpressey> > let (+-) a b = a * b in 6 `(+-)` 7
16:25:24 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `('
16:25:44 <oerjan> i said except for that
16:26:51 <oerjan> that one works a different way because 6 is a pattern, not an identifier
16:27:48 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `)'
16:27:54 <oerjan> 6 isn't an operator char either
16:29:02 <cpressey> > let _6_ _ _ = 7 in 6 `_6_` 6
16:29:04 <oerjan> haskell keeps the charset for identifiers and operators disjoint.
16:33:23 <lambdabot> <no location info>: Parse error in pattern
16:33:28 <oerjan> it tries mostly to prevent two consecutive tokens with operator chars from being likely
16:33:28 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at chara...
16:33:29 <oerjan> although there are exceptions
16:33:35 <oerjan> cpressey: _ is a special pattern and not an identifier
16:33:44 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `='
16:33:45 <cpressey> does the REPL not like function definitions?
16:33:48 <oerjan> > is not a repl it's an expression evaluator
16:33:54 <oerjan> also the ghci repl requires let as well, although with a different notation (it behaves like a giant do block)
16:33:54 <cpressey> it reads. it evaluates. it... privmsgs. it... logs onto irc.
16:34:03 <oerjan> ok i guess it's a kind of repl
16:37:42 <oerjan> and neither lambdabot nor ghci allows the full set of declarations in a module file
16:37:45 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `
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16:51:15 <oerjan> > let let x = 5 in "hi"
16:51:16 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
16:51:30 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
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16:52:02 <oerjan> i guess that error could happen for any cause once you're inside a block
16:52:54 <oerjan> cpressey: the difference here may be that a do block cannot be empty while a let block can
16:53:24 <oerjan> > let do { "hi" } = 5 in 6
16:53:25 <lambdabot> <no location info>: Parse error in pattern
16:54:20 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `='
16:54:51 <oerjan> it looks like a let block is parsed with something that allows an arbitrary expression
16:55:33 <oerjan> and only errors out after the whole expression has been parsed
16:56:16 <oerjan> that's actually a legal operator definition
16:56:57 <oerjan> until you try to call it with something other than 5 and 6, anyhow
16:57:09 <lambdabot> *Exception: <interactive>:3:4-13: Non-exhaustive patterns in function +
16:57:45 <oerjan> > let f (5+6) = 3 in f 11
16:57:46 <lambdabot> <no location info>: Parse error in pattern
16:58:23 <oerjan> i think that error may happen when it has parsed f (5+6) as an expression and discovers it wasn't a pattern
16:58:59 <oerjan> there needs to be such a subparser anyhow because there _are_ points in haskell's syntax where both an expression and a pattern are permitted. it's just strange that it's used in let.
16:59:55 <oerjan> (e.g. in do blocks you can have do pattern <- ... ; ... or do expression ; ...
17:02:10 <oerjan> oh wait i was reading glogbot logs not clog logs...
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17:08:40 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `in'
17:09:25 <lambdabot> <no location info>: Parse error in pattern
17:09:58 <Phantom_Hoover> What's all this crap about being distilled mathematics?
17:09:59 <lambdabot> <no location info>: Parse error in pattern
17:12:56 <oerjan> yeah i think "Parse error in pattern" means just that, it's a legal expression in a place where a pattern is expected
17:13:57 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `='
17:15:36 <oerjan> ghci gives <interactive>:1:17: parse error on input `='
17:16:03 <oerjan> so this is clearly a weirdness in ghc parsing, not just lambdabot
17:16:46 <oerjan> <interactive>:1:5: Parse error in pattern: 5 + 6
17:16:54 <oerjan> a bit more informative
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17:54:18 <elliott> 16:33:48: <oerjan> > is not a repl it's an expression evaluator
17:54:21 <elliott> oerjan: read EVAL print loop
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17:55:26 <elliott> 17:02:10: <oerjan> oh wait i was reading glogbot logs not clog logs...
17:57:05 <oerjan> elliott: so clog wasn't the one failing
17:57:27 <oerjan> to record some minutes of conversation
17:58:00 <elliott> Gregor: whaddya think happened
17:58:23 <oerjan> well after a while there was a glogbot netsplit, then it reentered
17:59:15 <elliott> 16:06:03 <Razor-X> They use Smalltalk, by the way.
17:59:16 <elliott> 16:06:42 <GregorR> Prepare for tomorrow with the language of yesterday :P
17:59:37 <elliott> man everyone is stupid in 2006 :D
18:00:10 <oerjan> razor-x, what happened to her...
18:00:52 <oerjan> was that her first or second nick, i've forgotten the other one
18:01:03 <oerjan> something japanese-soun... right
18:01:06 <elliott> i think sukoshi was the later one
18:01:23 <elliott> BUT IT'S OK BECAUSE EVERYONE WAS STUPID IN 2006 AND THEREFORE EVERYONE FROM 2006 SHOULD BE BOMBED
18:01:28 <elliott> Gregor has escaped punishment by dropping the R
18:01:33 <elliott> you've escaped the punshiment by dropping the j
18:01:34 <Gregor> <elliott> Gregor: whaddya think happened // I think glogbackup worked perfectly is what
18:01:38 * oerjan hides in his bomb shelter
18:01:43 <elliott> even though that happened in 2006
18:01:53 <elliott> and pikhq hasn't yet escaped so he's on death row
18:02:01 <elliott> Gregor: But why did glogbot die :P Netsplit?
18:02:10 <Gregor> * glogbot has quit (*.net *.split)
18:02:15 <Gregor> It said quite clearly that it was a netsplit you dunce.
18:02:36 <elliott> 16:37:56: <cpressey> ok well that was fun
18:02:36 <elliott> 16:51:01: -!- glogbot has joined #esoteric.
18:02:36 <elliott> 16:51:15: <oerjan> > let let x = 5 in "hi"
18:02:41 <elliott> Gregor: Not in the "fancy" logs.
18:02:54 <elliott> THIS IS WHY CH2 IS AWESOME (Info messages :P)
18:03:16 <Gregor> That's odd ... quit messages are in fact logged ... it's like it saw the other side of the netsplit or something ...
18:03:26 <elliott> Gregor: Or, it's because the baker totally fails at quit messages.
18:03:39 <Gregor> No, quit messages work fine.
18:04:01 <Gregor> If you look at the raw log, you'll see that it never received any quit messages.
18:05:03 <oerjan> Gregor: from what i see, glogbackup only entered once glogbot split. by that time messages to glogbot could have been lost for a while.
18:05:44 <Gregor> oerjan: That's ... not how a netsplit works. But glogbackup joins either by seeing a QUIT message, or by losing its dead man's switch on Codu.
18:06:08 <oerjan> Gregor: that's how a netsplit works if a server takes a long time to time out?
18:06:16 <elliott> Gregor: Did you get watchdog set up, btw?
18:06:27 <Gregor> oerjan: So you're complaining that glogbackup isn't psychic? Awwww.
18:06:45 <elliott> glogbackup could ping glogbot every few seconds, you know.
18:06:56 <elliott> If glogbot was programmed to not log those pings, it'd have basically 0 overhead and be perfect *shrug*
18:07:15 <elliott> SORRY FOR SUGGESTING CONSTRUCTIVE IMPROVEMENTS
18:07:19 <Gregor> The point of glogbackup is not to work around netsplits, it just HAPPENS to work that way some times.
18:07:28 <oerjan> Gregor: just pointing out it doesn't protect against messages lost before split detection, is all
18:07:36 <elliott> It could work perfectly if it pinged like that. and also notice when codu dies quicker.
18:09:19 <oerjan> clearly we must have a logbot on every freenode server.
18:09:32 <Gregor> It's amazing how I can improve the state of logging on this channel by 100x, and everybody complains that it's not 1000x X_X
18:09:58 <Vorpal> Gregor, I'm not complaining!
18:10:07 <oerjan> Gregor: this ... in a channel of extreme geeks ... surprises you?
18:10:42 <elliott> Gregor: 100x? that sounds a leeetle excessive
18:10:50 <elliott> anyway HEROBRINE did that ;D
18:11:06 <elliott> huh, smalltalk has very few tokens
18:12:20 <oerjan> ...don't you mean keywords...
18:12:48 <oerjan> i mean, every identifier is a token
18:13:09 <elliott> hash, caret, pipe, equals, dot, semicolon, comment, symbol, number, string, lparen, rparen, lbracket, rbracket
18:13:47 <Gregor> elliott: Herobrine was at http://lolsomeIP, and had no backup at all.
18:14:08 <elliott> lolsomeIP... I fail to see the relevance considering it was in the topic always
18:14:25 <elliott> And glogbot doesn't have a backup that works for the vastly common case i.e. netsplits :P
18:15:58 <elliott> Gregor is now fuming so hard he's actually evaporated completely
18:16:24 -!- variable has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:16:27 <Gregor> The only form of backup that would work in that case is having a bot connected to every server, on every logged channel.
18:16:35 <Gregor> And that's what we in the biz call "a terrible idea."
18:16:42 <Gregor> Then again, terrible ideas are your fort.
18:17:04 -!- variable has joined.
18:17:15 <elliott> (1) With geographically-separated servers, pinging glogbot every few seconds would handle >50% of cases.
18:17:27 <elliott> (2) Considering you're the one who just invented that idea on the spot, I'm not sure what's with all the self-hating.
18:18:23 <Gregor> elliott: It was oerjan's idea.
18:18:34 <elliott> Yes, oerjan says things seriously.
18:18:40 <Gregor> elliott: And you can't know where the split will occur, so that won't handle >50% of cases.
18:18:42 <Gregor> elliott: That was to (2)
18:19:03 <elliott> Generally two geographically far-away servers don't get split IME, but whatever.
18:20:39 <oerjan> elliott: just look at * oerjan hides, that proves i was serious
18:23:28 <oerjan> in order for two servers to be split, one of the (inclusive) in-between servers must fail. any other server failing will not be detected.
18:25:26 <oerjan> hm take the tree, remove all leaf nodes. put a logbot on everything that is _now_ a leaf node. i think that detects everything interesting due to one server going down
18:25:49 <elliott> it's not a tree, it's a graph
18:25:51 <oerjan> how many servers that is, i don't know
18:26:01 <oerjan> um irc is supposedly a tree, always
18:26:25 <elliott> Gregor: http://freenode.net/irc_servers.shtml ;; a logbot on every server would not be difficult at all
18:26:26 <oerjan> unless they have some protocol addition. in fact that's one reason why irc has so much netsplits
18:27:03 <oerjan> i repeat, you don't need a logbot on all nodes, just the second-to-leaf ones
18:27:09 <elliott> just saying that even then
18:27:13 <elliott> oerjan: irc as a graph sounds like it'd be a lot more reliable...
18:27:23 <oerjan> or wait hm is that correct
18:27:37 <oerjan> elliott: yes. but that makes everything else more complicated.
18:27:50 <elliott> oerjan: "modern" IRC isn't exactly trivial :)
18:27:58 <elliott> _especially_ interserver stuff
18:28:00 <Gregor> DISAPPOINTED BY LACK OF AFRICAN SERVERS
18:28:11 <Gregor> Freenode's racism will no longer be tolerated.
18:28:15 <oerjan> a graph means there is more than one path between two servers, so you need to do something special to prevent messages arriving twice
18:28:22 * Gregor sets up irc.freenode.so
18:28:23 <elliott> yeah, and where's the antarctic servers!
18:28:38 <elliott> also, the ANYWHERE IN THE AMERICAS BUT THE US servers!
18:28:56 <elliott> man, hiato must have a blast connecting from south africa :D
18:29:25 <Gregor> Where's our Mars server.
18:29:40 <elliott> and what about andromeda? oh wait, Ed blew that up
18:30:07 <elliott> "The Andromeda–Milky Way collision is a predicted galaxy collision that could possibly take place in approximately 3 to 5 billion years' time between the two largest galaxies in the Local Group – the Andromeda Galaxy and the Milky Way, which contains Earth."
18:31:15 <fizzie> Classic-style IRC is indeed a tree, but it can be configumarated to bring up backup links if one node dies.
18:32:42 <elliott> But does non-classic-style IRC exist? :P
18:32:45 <Gregor> Galaxy collisions, for those in the galaxy, are extremely boring events, even if we could experience the sheer time scale.
18:33:09 <Zwaarddijk> there's some impressive numbers associated with that collision
18:33:35 <fizzie> I don't know what freenode does. Based on how often they go all "we're rerouting things", it doesn't sound likely they'd be very automatically-robust.
18:34:22 <elliott> A whole SIX stars will collide, and images of the resulting galaxy might even look SLIGHTLY different from a simple image blending of them!
18:34:28 <oerjan> hm assuming that's essentially a random thing, one might ask how many stars collide in a galaxy under usual circumstances, even without a galaxy collision
18:34:33 <elliott> fizzie: But does it exist in general?
18:35:45 <fizzie> Perhaps not, but I wouldn't rule it out.
18:35:58 <elliott> CLEARLY IT MUST BE INTERVENTED
18:36:15 <oerjan> i vaguely recall something about there possibly being big changes in the large-scale structure though, possibly merging into a galaxy that is no longer spiral, but elliptic?
18:37:00 <oerjan> as in, just because stars don't collide, it doesn't mean the whole galaxies pass through each other as if nothing happened
18:37:12 <fizzie> As far as I can tell, freenode has done the typical thing and nerfed the LINKS command too, so that you can't even draw the graph.
18:40:56 <elliott> * anthony.freenode.net calvino.freenode.net :1 Irvine, CA, USA
18:40:56 <elliott> * calvino.freenode.net calvino.freenode.net :0 Milan, IT
18:41:03 <elliott> Couldn't you do like 385734958734598345 hops to find out the graph from that?
18:42:01 <fizzie> It gives that same list wherever I connect to.
18:42:27 <fizzie> (Okay, so I just spot-checked a few.)
18:43:09 <elliott> So is anthony.freenode.net, like, The freenode server?
18:43:45 <fizzie> I guess theoretically anthony-calvino could be the US/EU link. Or maybe it's just a fakey-fakey.
18:44:06 <elliott> Why return a real-looking fake link, rather than like
18:44:15 <elliott> * your.freenode.net mom.freenode.net :1 Your Mom's Household
18:44:50 <tswett> So, in Smalltalk, the global namespace contains true, false, nil, self, super, thisContext, string literals, numeric literals, block literals, and classes. Anything else?
18:45:20 <elliott> tswett: self and super and thisContext aren't global are they?
18:45:25 <elliott> They're local to whatever method you're in.
18:45:29 <elliott> Or execution context, really.
18:45:42 <tswett> Well, they're available everywhere. :P
18:45:47 <elliott> If you just mean "the top-level namespace in a certain context", well, temporary variables and instance variables are in there too.
18:45:56 <elliott> tswett: But they don't have a consistent value everywhere.
18:46:15 <elliott> tswett: Isn't "nil" a keyword? I may be wrong.
18:46:32 <elliott> Also, literals aren't identifiers, so they're not in any namespace.
18:46:39 <elliott> In conclusion, the global namespace contains classes and maybe nil. :p
18:46:53 <tswett> Yeah, nil's a keyword. Just like true and false.
18:46:54 <elliott> And the available-everywhere namespace contains true, false, self, super, thisContext, classes, and maybe nil.
18:47:03 <elliott> And the available-everywhere namespace contains self, super, thisContext, and classes.
18:47:07 <elliott> Is thisContext a keyword too?
18:47:18 <elliott> So basically the global namespace contains... classes. :p
18:47:31 <elliott> But self/super/nil/true/false/thisContext are pretty damn close to being immutable variables in a given scope.
18:47:37 <elliott> (self isn't immutable in idst!)
18:47:48 <elliott> { memcpy(self, v__fp, sizeof(double)); }.
18:47:54 <tswett> Nothing is immutable in idst!
18:48:04 <elliott> tswett: Well, I think "3" might be immutable.
18:48:11 <elliott> In the sense that you can't assign to it; you can certainly give it new methods.
18:48:29 <elliott> That Float method is amazing, though.
18:48:32 <tswett> I wouldn't be entirely surprised if you could &3 = 5. Or is it 3%?
18:48:54 <elliott> First it replaces itself with a new instance of itself (idst is prototype-based).
18:49:09 <elliott> Then it copies its _fp argument to itself, overwriting itself.
18:49:26 <elliott> The key here being that in idst, the vtable is *just before* the self pointer, so that doesn't actually cause it to stop being an object.
18:49:37 <elliott> It just overwrites all the data with the single double that constitutes a Float.
18:49:47 -!- iconmaster has joined.
18:50:37 <elliott> tswett: btw, you can't do &3 in general in C.
18:51:00 <elliott> &lvalue results in an rvalue of type T*, where T is the type of lvalue.
18:51:16 <elliott> 3 isn't an lvalue, and "&x = ..." isn't valid because &x is an rvalue.
18:51:32 <elliott> ("*&x = ..." is valid because *p is an lvalue where p is a pointer, and &x is a pointer.)
18:51:51 <tswett> And use it as an lvalue?
18:51:59 -!- calamari has joined.
18:52:01 <elliott> No. "foo" isn't an lvalue.
18:52:19 <elliott> It's a literal rvalue of type (const char *). Or actually (const char []), in certain contexts.
18:52:31 <elliott> Or is that just (char []).
18:52:33 <tswett> Can I cast it to a char * and then write to it?
18:52:45 <elliott> tswett: You don't need to cast it, you can write directly; your program will segfault.
18:53:05 <elliott> <elliott> ("*&x = ..." is valid because *p is an lvalue where p is a pointer, and &x is a pointer.)
18:53:05 <tswett> I guess this is almost the definition of a segmentation fault.
18:53:23 <elliott> This isn't quite true, in that that's not always valid.
18:53:30 <cpressey> elliott: btw, some of the bugs you mentioned in yoob have been fixed. but not all.
18:53:37 <elliott> Because if p is of type (const T *) then you can't assign to its dereferencing, even though it's an lvalue.
18:53:57 <elliott> cpressey: I still think a swanky fungespace-editor would be cool :P
18:54:04 <elliott> DESIGN GOALS ARE IRRELEVANT ONLY COOL MATTERS
18:54:12 <cpressey> there's only one runthread now, and it receives messages telling it to start, stop, or load a new language
18:54:35 <elliott> but but, I _liked_ being able to make it go faster in certain weird scenarios
18:54:44 <fizzie> &* is almost a no-op by a special definition, though. (If the operand of unary & is the result of unary *, neither the * nor the & are evaluated, and the result is as if both were omitted, "except that the constraints on the operators still apply and the result is not an lvalue".)
18:54:45 <elliott> it was like a magic/more magic switch!
18:55:07 <elliott> fizzie: Heh. So &*var turns var into an rvalue, no matter what type var has.
18:55:31 <cpressey> fizzie: that's kind of like saying (x/n)*n=x
18:55:55 <elliott> fizzie: I wonder what the heck the justification for that was ;P
18:56:06 <elliott> Compatimability with olde compilers that literally just saw &* and skipped over the pair?
18:56:12 <fizzie> The rationale doesn't say.
18:57:01 <fizzie> There's another such special rule: in "&foo[bar]", again "neither the & operator nor the unary * that is implied by the [] is evaluated, and the result is as if the & operator were removed and the [] operator were changed to a + operator".
18:57:19 <elliott> Does that actually change anything?
18:57:26 -!- Imk0tter has joined.
18:57:33 <elliott> Or is it just because that expands to
18:57:39 <elliott> which is again that special case?
18:57:41 <cpressey> shouldn't &*foo segfault if foo is NULL? or otherwise outside the address space?
18:57:51 -!- copumpkin has joined.
18:58:00 <elliott> it maybe should, but it actually just results in NULL
18:58:33 <cpressey> never mind. i should be coding in python right now.
18:59:07 <elliott> cpressey: i feel sorry for you igf it's any consolation
18:59:25 <olsner> cpressey: python will numb your mind and retard your soul
18:59:26 * cpressey makes squeaky sounds with his pursed lips designed to attract lower forms of life
18:59:57 <Vorpal> <elliott> it's not a tree, it's a graph <-- it is a spanning tree
19:00:03 <elliott> Vorpal: that's what she said
19:00:55 <Vorpal> <elliott> oerjan: irc as a graph sounds like it'd be a lot more reliable... <-- meshing has been tried. Several times even. Problem is that it isn't very easy to make it work properly since irc is multicast.
19:01:22 <elliott> let's just move to chatting over ipv6 multicast
19:02:56 <fizzie> There was some talk at clc whether "char *foo = 0; (void)*foo;" should segfault, i.e. whether the dereferencing should "happen". I guess the majority opinion was that it doesn't. (They were a lot more divided on whether "volatile char *foo = ...; (void)*foo;" should cause a read always, but of course "what constitutes an access to an object that has volatile-qualified type is implementation-defined".)
19:03:08 <Vorpal> elliott, inspircd 1.0 even implemented meshing. Sure it helped a bit at netsplits, but it caused lots of bugs elsewhere. Maybe it would have been possible to make it work, but the devs decided it wasn't worth the work. Even today inspircd supports you plugging in a different server linking module if you want.
19:03:20 <elliott> whoa holding down cmd+n is so trippy
19:03:21 <Vorpal> there is only the spanning tree one though
19:03:40 <elliott> Vorpal: well inspircd is lame so who cares!
19:04:09 <elliott> it's like, written in c++, and it has that smell of obnoxious over-modularity
19:04:34 <elliott> i'd totally plug a better server but not really being so much of an ircd guy i'll just say that ngircd is pretty okay :P
19:04:38 <elliott> it should totally support graphs though
19:04:41 <elliott> bet i could get a degree out of that
19:04:47 <Vorpal> elliott, it and charybdis are the only two serious competitors for the position of best ircd really. Most derivatives are crap. And ircd-seven that freenode uses is very very close to charybdis iirc
19:04:52 <elliott> Alternate network topologies for an internetworked relay-chat system
19:05:01 <elliott> Vorpal: what's from with ngircd
19:05:10 <Imk0tter> if anyone wants to try fixing some brainfuck: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=v97Kx3pm
19:05:23 <Vorpal> elliott, from what I remember, it looked a bit crap. What do you think makes it good?
19:05:30 <fizzie> I think SILC has at least some automatic split-free fallover thing to a backup router, where "router" is a special case of a "regular" SILC server, which can only be a leaf to another router.
19:05:32 <Imk0tter> it's supposed to take an integer and print out the first 6 digits
19:05:58 <Vorpal> Imk0tter, what's up with the first lin?
19:06:00 <elliott> Vorpal: it's portable, the code is very simple and straightforward, it supports just about everything, it's mature...
19:06:10 <Imk0tter> Vorpal, it's the input integer
19:06:13 <Vorpal> elliott, feature support from what I remember
19:06:32 <Vorpal> oh right, you don't care much about features. Forgot that.
19:06:40 <elliott> Vorpal: uhh, it supports ssl, ipv6... define "features"
19:06:48 <elliott> a server command to do trout slapping?
19:07:18 <Vorpal> elliott, stuff like more advanced channel modes. Such as invite exempt based on service account
19:07:34 <Vorpal> +I $a:elliott would work in charybdis for example.
19:07:43 <Vorpal> I'm not sure if freenode has that turned on for example
19:07:47 <elliott> ngircd's service support is purely linking-based. so that's the services' job to handle
19:08:03 <elliott> freenode lets you set invite in access flags list of a channel
19:08:04 <Vorpal> elliott, you can't do that in the service. How would it work?
19:08:17 <cpressey> from ZOMGMODULES import WINNING
19:08:26 <Vorpal> elliott, and yes that flag for invite means you can manually do /cs invite #channel
19:08:27 <elliott> Vorpal: services kick anyone out who doesn't match the enabled invite pattern? services invite someone in the list who sends a message requesting them?
19:08:41 <Vorpal> elliott, there is a delay there. Some in channel message could get through
19:09:09 <elliott> if you're saying "well, it doesn't support this *very specific* feature that nobody uses, and I count any slight change in the interface as a completely different feature, therefore ngircd sucks", that's just... stupid
19:09:12 <fizzie> Vorpal: ircd-seven does the "$type:data" special-ban/exempt/whatever syntax, with types of a, r and x.
19:09:15 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean: ngircd fails to do a simple check at the server that many other ircds can do
19:09:23 <elliott> Vorpal: define simple check
19:09:33 <elliott> you mean mandating that services use NickServ as the name?
19:09:38 <elliott> or any other kind of tight coupling?
19:09:55 <elliott> anyway just because something is simple to implement doesn't mean it's inherently the best thing to implement... or no, am I wrong?
19:10:04 <elliott> I think GNU echo should read mail: mbox is a simple format after all.
19:10:28 <Vorpal> elliott, well in the case of charybdis, it could go like this in pseudo code: is_in_invite_list(channel, "$a" + user->metadata[service_tag])
19:10:41 <Vorpal> of course since it is C, it will be more involved
19:10:41 <elliott> so, tight coupling with services
19:10:45 <elliott> <elliott> anyway just because something is simple to implement doesn't mean it's inherently the best thing to implement... or no, am I wrong?
19:10:45 <elliott> <elliott> I think GNU echo should read mail: mbox is a simple format after all.
19:10:59 <Vorpal> elliott, tight coupling with the metadata in the protocol :P
19:10:59 <elliott> but no, it wouldn't be simple to implement anyway
19:11:13 <elliott> Vorpal: ngircd supports services in the proper way, i.e. linking to them normally.
19:11:19 <Vorpal> elliott, which is TS6 basically
19:11:20 <cpressey> so is there also a client called scylla? 'cos if not, i'm miffed.
19:11:40 <elliott> you're suggesting a semi-useless feature (because it can be incredibly easily done in another way with services) that involves tight coupling of the server codebase to services details
19:11:42 <Vorpal> elliott, they still link. But it uses TS6 protocol. Same as inspircd do (though both uses minor extensions iirc)
19:11:45 <elliott> and saying that on the basis that it lacks that, ngircd is crap
19:11:51 <elliott> this is stupid, you're just trolling
19:12:19 <Vorpal> no that was just one example. *shrug*
19:12:32 <Vorpal> and you seem to hate this sort of functionality
19:13:08 <Vorpal> you really fail at this. You can use that same feature with another service package.
19:18:50 <elliott> cpressey: i want to write one now just because it's a nice name
19:19:13 <cpressey> elliott: it's not just that it's nice, it's... jeez, mythology, people
19:19:26 <elliott> cpressey: no, i just want to make it because it's nice, mythology can go fuck itself
19:19:40 <elliott> hey Gregor did you just change the log font
19:20:48 <elliott> oklopol: i saw your picture, i can now snipe you
19:21:04 <oklopol> you must be one hell of a hacker
19:21:39 <Gregor> elliott: Fontophiles are not permitted.
19:21:46 <elliott> Gregor: did you just change it y or n
19:21:50 <Gregor> elliott: However, I haven't changed anything, it's always been font-face: monospace
19:22:07 <elliott> it's not about ph0ntohpilia, it just antialiased really badly for a second
19:22:10 <elliott> really bad colour fringing
19:22:15 <elliott> it either fixed itself or my eyes unfucked
19:22:20 <Gregor> I don't think I can change that from CSS.
19:22:56 <Gregor> I wouldn't be too surprised, they put all sorts of shit in CSS :P
19:23:20 <elliott> Gregor: Yet NO FEATURES FOR HIDE-BUT-COPY
19:23:31 <fizzie> oklopol: We saw your castle thing, http://zem.fi/~fis/turkustle.jpg -- and didn't clean up your place. :/
19:23:45 <elliott> that's the shittiest castle i've ever
19:23:59 <elliott> Gregor: .foo { display: no; pronounce: no; copy: yes } /* IS THIS TOO MUCH TO ASK */
19:24:44 <Gregor> .foo { display: none; pronounce: accent(swedish); copy: random }
19:24:48 -!- cpressey has changed nick to ph0ntohpiliac.
19:25:16 <elliott> !swedish .foo { display: none; pronounce: accent(swedish); copy: random }
19:25:18 <EgoBot> .fuu { deespley: nune-a; prunuoonce-a: eccent(svedeesh); cupy: rundum }
19:25:35 <oklopol> fizzie: did you leave already?
19:25:50 <elliott> <oklopol> THEN COME AND CLEAN THE FUCKING PLACE UP
19:26:20 <oklopol> although i did just do 6 hours of group theory so i'm not sure i'd feel like meeting people even if you were here
19:27:51 <oklopol> i don't actually let people in my home anyway, so i wasn't very serious about the cleaning
19:28:06 <elliott> but you said i could visit :<
19:28:08 <oklopol> my parents have been trying to clean this place up since i moved, but i don't let them
19:28:16 <oklopol> well exceptions are possible
19:28:27 <oklopol> but cleaning up and looking through my stuff?
19:28:49 <fizzie> elliott: Yeah, we're not very castley peoples.
19:29:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:29:15 <fizzie> oklopol: We was there for just a few hours.
19:29:19 <elliott> no fucking rooks or anything
19:29:29 <oklopol> it's slightly bigger than it looks
19:29:36 <fizzie> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%C3%85bo_slott_1724.JPG
19:29:38 <elliott> A CASTLE IS NOT JUST A BIG HOUSE
19:29:57 <elliott> I GUESS IT GOT DE-CASTLIFIED
19:30:15 <elliott> lol turku is called Åbo in swedish
19:31:09 <fizzie> Well, it got quite damageded in bombings in 1941, I think. I guess oklopol can tell you lots of more of the history, he lives nearby after all.
19:32:14 <oklopol> yeah i have no idea about the history
19:32:20 <oklopol> but i've surely heard a lot of it
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19:33:23 <ZOMGMODULES> why are none of these fantastic nicks taken
19:33:37 <oklopol> i know some stuff about the current state of the castle, due to knowing people who study museology
19:33:54 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: i propose you snatch up one-honking-great-idea while it's still available
19:34:20 -!- oklopol has changed nick to MYPEN_ISBIG.
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19:36:00 <Imk0tter> anyone semi-fluent with brainfuck?
19:36:05 -!- MYPEN_ISBIG has changed nick to oklopol.
19:36:39 <oklopol> Imk0tter: what's "fluent"? that's sort of relative
19:36:40 <Imk0tter> MatrixOfSolidity, how would i subtract 1 from v1 and v2 until one of them is 0
19:37:46 <oklopol> but otherwise it's pretty nice
19:38:21 <oklopol> well. i'm not going to comment on that.
19:39:22 <oklopol> well i have no idea why it would work
19:39:47 <Gregor> EgoBot !bf has never accepted !input.
19:39:48 <MatrixOfSolidity> oklopol: well "while (v1) { while (v2) { v2--; v1--; go to scrap }; go back to v1 }"
19:40:04 <MatrixOfSolidity> Gregor: well how do i get inputs in, that stupid input system thing? :D
19:40:12 <Imk0tter> MatrixOfSolidity, v1 can go negative
19:40:14 <fizzie> MatrixOfSolidity: How's that going to terminate the outer loop when v2 is 0.
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19:40:17 <Gregor> MatrixOfSolidity: Nope, that's gone. You don't.
19:40:25 -!- EgoBot has joined.
19:40:36 <Gregor> MatrixOfSolidity: Too bad.
19:40:47 <MatrixOfSolidity> Gregor: So much for EgoBot the useful esolang execution bot :P
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19:41:00 <Imk0tter> MatrixOfSolidity: the interpreter i'm using uses 32bit integers
19:41:33 <oklopol> fizzie: how it terminates is it moves to the left of v1, because it doesn't enter the inner loop
19:41:55 <Imk0tter> MatrixOfSolidity, let's assume there is no negative
19:42:57 <fungot> MatrixOfSolidity: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/ chrono/ zzo38/ mainpage the actual ui has something to do that anyway
19:43:01 <oklopol> the only problem is you don't know where you stop, but that's kinda easy
19:43:45 -!- MatrixOfSolidity has changed nick to elliott.
19:43:45 <oklopol> i mean, at least if you don't care about size
19:43:53 -!- oklopol has changed nick to ICAREABOUTSIZE.
19:43:59 -!- ICAREABOUTSIZE has changed nick to oklopol.
19:44:03 <oklopol> i realized that was retarded
19:44:18 <elliott> Imk0tter: why do you keep pinging me without any message
19:44:27 <Imk0tter> i forgot what i was going to say
19:44:35 <elliott> EnjoyBeingLocked: [[This is quite true, you won't find ones complement. IBM pushed this through. In the early years, Mathematicians dominated the field. In the one's complement setup, a negative zero can result. "BUT THERE IS NO SUCH THING !!" the mathematicians exclaim. That always tickled me. They go along with all kinds of obscure and arcane advances, like "imaginary" numbers. But this they couldn't
19:44:38 <Imk0tter> !ba puts v0 and v1 to b and a respectively
19:44:53 <oklopol> if you don't care, you can just walk say two steps left, and have (0, 1, 0, v_1, v_2, 0), then search for the leftmost 0
19:45:00 <elliott> Imk0tter: it does nothing, that's just input syntax
19:45:05 <elliott> prog!input means "run prog with input"
19:45:41 <elliott> yeah do what oklopol said I guess :P
19:45:44 <elliott> what do you want this for anyway
19:49:58 <elliott> EnjoyBeingLocked: definitely gonna go for tedious, not relaxing
19:50:16 <elliott> defining an ast structure might be even more tedious actually
19:55:11 -!- EnjoyBeingLocked has changed nick to ZOMGMODULES.
19:56:51 <elliott> i...'ve never even really thought of C as anything that i could possibly ever file under relaxing
19:57:00 <elliott> you're speaking english, right?
19:57:01 <ZOMGMODULES> THIS IS THE WISDOM OF ZOMGMODULES. HEED IT
19:57:20 <elliott> well it's possibly made worse by the fact that it's a programming language I'm specifying.
19:57:35 <elliott> like, damn, this would be so much easier if i could just write the compiler in itself and use it without any bootstrapping!
19:58:04 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: well, the bootstrap grammar is pretty much established. i'm not going to try fun stuff until i rewrite the compiler in the language.
19:58:08 <Ilari> Fun: HFCS at half soda concentration vs. Table sugar at full soda concentration.
19:58:14 <elliott> i...write it out, no, but I've pretty much stolen Smalltalk's grammar
19:58:41 <ZOMGMODULES> you need to write it out, preferably on paper but also in a comment block at the top of the source is acceptable, or it won't be relaxing.
19:59:13 <Ilari> (And no, that wasn't study from corn refiner's association)..
19:59:45 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: pretty impressive ass you have there, with all the ideas you pull out of it ;;;;::DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDdddddddddddd
20:00:24 <elliott> hmm, parsing smalltalk is actually quite a pain
20:00:43 <elliott> because of (foo a: b) vs. (foo a: b c: d).
20:02:36 <Imk0tter> elliott, the only problem with your example is that you don't know which variable is the one that's not empty
20:02:52 <elliott> Imk0tter: well like oklopol said, if you just put a 1 after some 0s you can synchronis
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20:03:03 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: with yacc-like things, if you have like, [a; b; c] and {a; b; c} both as blocks
20:03:09 <elliott> 'cuz one ends with RBRACKET and the other RBRACE
20:05:15 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: I WOULD LIKE TO SEE YOU WRITE THIS PARSER RECURSIVE-DESCENT
20:05:19 <elliott> MOSTLY BECAUSE IT WOULD SAVE ME FROM DOING SO
20:06:34 <elliott> woo i totally have it down apart from like
20:07:19 <ZOMGMODULES> void parse() { if(tokeq("["){expect("["); parse_list(); expect("]");} else if (tokeq("{"){expect("{"); parse_list(); expect("}");} else error(); }
20:07:28 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: no i don't mean that
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20:07:56 <ZOMGMODULES> void parse_list() { parse_elem(); while(tokeq(";")){ expect(";"); parse_elem(); } }
20:08:21 <elliott> program := exprs. expr := #ident | ^expr | (expr) | [block] | ident := expr | message | literal.
20:08:38 <elliott> block := (optional: | var var var ... |) expr . block | expr |
20:08:49 <elliott> message := dem smalltalk thangles
20:09:02 <ZOMGMODULES> i'd love to, it's very relaxing. unfortunately, can't spend all day here
20:09:19 <ZOMGMODULES> though 'dem smalltalk thangles' is a little underspecified for my taste
20:09:55 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: message is expr messagepart*
20:10:08 <elliott> messagepart is either ident without :, or ident ending in : and having no other :s in it followed by an expr
20:10:22 <elliott> fucking ugly to specify because you have to have constraints on the ident inside the actual thing
20:10:35 <elliott> oh and it's messagepart+, not *.
20:11:24 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/jbMF hey i think i did it
20:11:53 <Imk0tter> can you help me out here, because i don't really understand your example ;\
20:12:23 <Imk0tter> i'm trying to divide v1 by v2, but the problem i'm having is that v1 goes negative and the loop never ends
20:12:24 <oklopol> erm just that elliott's code can end on top of either the leftmost 0 or v1 if you start with (0, _v1_, v2, 0)
20:12:29 <ZOMGMODULES> i would just accept ident or ident: interchangeably and filter out the bad stuff at the static analysis phase
20:12:41 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: oh that's not the problem
20:12:51 <ZOMGMODULES> hey,... ghci's "let" does something like that, right oerjan?
20:12:54 <elliott> the problem is that some dickhead could say "foo a:b: c"
20:13:00 <elliott> "foo a:b c:d" should parse properly
20:13:02 <ZOMGMODULES> if it's good enough for ghci it's good enough for me
20:13:06 <elliott> but that a:b and c:d will parse as one ident
20:13:15 <elliott> maybe i should have two types of ident
20:13:20 <oklopol> so just move two steps left and then do a search to the left for a 0, have 0, 1, 0, v1, v2, 0 as the initial tape
20:13:24 <oklopol> then you'll know where the head is
20:13:25 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: that's smalltalk
20:13:33 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: really :s are banned in identifiers altogether
20:13:36 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: it's just that they're valid _symbols_
20:13:39 <elliott> i.e. #foo:bar: is an ok symbol
20:13:46 <elliott> but foo:bar: is so not an ok identifier.
20:13:50 <oklopol> you won't know which one went to zero, but you can check that by looking at them...
20:13:52 <elliott> so really what i need to do is handle # at the lexer phase
20:14:00 <elliott> turn #foo:bar: into SYMBOL("foo:bar:")
20:14:10 <elliott> and turn foo:bar: into IDENT("foo") COLON IDENT("bar") COLON
20:14:19 <ZOMGMODULES> this is pretty much why i never got into smalltalk
20:14:30 <ZOMGMODULES> this very part of it seemed unnecessarily brutal
20:14:44 <elliott> anyway it was my token's fault :)
20:14:49 <elliott> for not distinguishing idents and symbols
20:15:11 <elliott> you mean like how you can't arrange parts?
20:15:21 <elliott> oh and really i want a multi-dispatch thing but that's too much for my brain to jam together right now
20:15:33 <elliott> i think i'll finish writing up this yacc-style grammar then recursive descend on it
20:16:02 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: well, it's nicer than /python's/ approach to the "argument positions are meaningless" problem.
20:16:05 <ZOMGMODULES> using the same label mechanism for all those things
20:16:26 <ZOMGMODULES> that's ok. it's been a long time and i don't remember
20:16:43 <elliott> ok now the grammar is perfectly sanified
20:16:47 <elliott> apart from being left-recursive.
20:16:57 <elliott> i don't even know how you're meant to do
20:17:05 <elliott> expr ::= IDENT EQUALS expr
20:17:08 <elliott> that's not left-recursive :D
20:17:14 <elliott> body(A) ::= expr(B) DOT body(C). {...;}
20:17:14 <elliott> body(A) ::= expr(B). {...;}
20:17:17 <elliott> and that looks... kind of easy?
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20:19:40 <elliott> i broke the CHIQRSX9+ article
20:19:46 <elliott> it is now impossible to access it
20:19:55 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/CHIQRSX9%2B ;; click for fun
20:22:06 <ZOMGMODULES> I do not know if I agree with the sentiment that adding a random number to every character in your program and interpreting it as Perl counts as your language being "Turing-complete"
20:22:52 <elliott> it can be accessed from http://esolangs.org/wiki/CHIQRSX9_Plus
20:22:56 <elliott> which doesn't do a hard redirect
20:23:14 <elliott> still can't be moved though
20:23:32 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=CHIQRSX9%2B
20:24:21 <elliott> Imk0tter: what was wrong with oklopol's solution?
20:24:29 <Imk0tter> i don't understand how it works
20:26:10 <oklopol> well assuming you have 0 1 0 v1 v2 0 just do elliott's, and then append <<[<]
20:26:12 <oerjan> <ZOMGMODULES> hey,... ghci's "let" does something like that, right oerjan? <-- well that's what it looked like...
20:26:26 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: look at dat lack of braces
20:27:57 <ZOMGMODULES> C needs a ";;" operator that is a high-precedence ";" to avoid the need for braces
20:28:10 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: and we could call it ocaml
20:28:20 <elliott> can you stack ;s arbitrarily?
20:28:41 <elliott> so basically, if/while/etc. are {
20:28:58 <elliott> SORRY TO BREAK YOUR DREAMS
20:29:22 <oerjan> obfuscated c and metalanguage
20:29:29 <elliott> omg having comments in the ast is the best idea ever
20:29:38 <elliott> okay so you can't just put comments in ANY old place now
20:29:50 <elliott> it's like docstrings, except not stupid!
20:30:52 <elliott> apparently richard dawkins is on the vpri board of advisors
20:31:02 <elliott> the actual richard dawkins
20:31:07 <elliott> thought it was just some guy with the same name
20:31:32 <elliott> wonder why he's on the board?
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20:32:03 <elliott> http://www.vpri.org/images/people/board/vpri_ppl_24.jpg
20:32:04 <elliott> http://www.vpri.org/images/people/board/vpri_ppl_20.jpg
20:32:06 <elliott> with these kinds of beards
20:32:10 <elliott> http://www.vpri.org/images/people/board/vpri_ppl_07.jpg
20:32:15 <elliott> why hasn't vpri invented the next big language yet!
20:32:44 <elliott> http://piumarta.com/cv/xyzzy.jpg
20:32:50 <elliott> maybe they've had a beard overflow
20:32:55 <elliott> leaving them with negative beard
20:33:41 <elliott> "Ian assembled and ran his first program at the age of 13 on a DEC PDP-10" ;; what kinda 13 year old gets access to a pdp-10
20:36:26 <elliott> the Viewpoints Research Institute
20:37:51 <elliott> yes. actually i think they prefer the acronym VRI but i like vpri better. also it's their domain name
20:37:56 <ZOMGMODULES> "We found that a certain percentage of the population hold one opinion, while the rest hold another."
20:38:01 <elliott> "prefer" = their web page uses VRI
20:38:14 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: careful. alan kay might punch you
20:38:23 <tswett> If your eventual skill at something is determined by the age at which you pick it up, then my calling is definitely programming.
20:38:43 <elliott> tswett: Not, say, using the toilet?
20:38:51 <elliott> You must have been programming pretty early on, then.
20:39:05 <tswett> Your point has goodness.
20:39:31 <tswett> If your eventual skill at a trade or art is determined . . . programming.
20:39:59 <ZOMGMODULES> Phantom_Hoover PERHAPS YOU SHOULD TRY /whois
20:40:06 <elliott> tswett: Did you just ELIDE LOGIC
20:40:23 <tswett> elliott: I assume you can figure out what my ellipsis represents.
20:40:25 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: wait your name is Christopher? kinda assumed you were always just Chris THIS IS LOGICAL OK
20:41:24 <tswett> He's not Christ; he's the -opher of Christ.
20:41:25 <elliott> the Z stands for Christopher
20:41:49 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: yes, I just looked it up. :)
20:42:15 <tswett> It's funny how "Christopher" is sometimes shortened to "Chris" and sometimes to "Topher".
20:42:18 <Phantom_Hoover> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Christopher_icon.jpg
20:42:30 <elliott> tswett: FSVO sometimes equal to never.
20:42:35 <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: parents who put just "Chris" on a birth certificate are... like parents who put just "Bob" on a birth certificate.
20:42:44 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: So, like your parents then?
20:42:52 <elliott> `addquote <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: parents who put just "Chris" on a birth certificate are... like parents who put just "Bob" on a birth certificate.
20:42:55 <HackEgo> 351) <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: parents who put just "Chris" on a birth certificate are... like parents who put just "Bob" on a birth certificate.
20:43:18 <tswett> It's like... it's like someone who invents the name "Wafflecarrot" based on the words "waffle" and "carrot", and then people named Wafflecarrot start being called Waff and Lecarrot.
20:43:22 <elliott> i swear, with our powers combined, together #esoteric is a mediocre comedian that doesn't know when to shut up and doesn't know when it's being funny or not
20:43:23 <tswett> That was an awful analogy on my part. I apologize.
20:43:25 <elliott> we could capitalise on this
20:43:38 <Phantom_Hoover> If it's common enough you get a legitimate female name.
20:43:42 <elliott> tswett: WHO SHORTENS CHRISTOPHER TO TOPHER
20:43:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Christopherina
20:43:54 <tswett> elliott: ask Topher Grace's shortners.
20:44:27 <elliott> was gonna go for phantomina
20:44:28 <tswett> The female form of Tanner is Tanress. :P
20:44:31 <ZOMGMODULES> Phantom_Hoover: Which werewolf would that be?
20:44:41 <elliott> you know, all those men named Vag
20:44:56 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Oerjanina <-- In Swedish (and possibly Norwegian) you would add -ida instead
20:44:59 <elliott> olsner: your real name is olsner right
20:45:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, at least quite often
20:45:16 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> ZOMGMODULES, St. Christopher, saint and werewolf.
20:45:17 <HackEgo> 352) <Phantom_Hoover> ZOMGMODULES, St. Christopher, saint and werewolf.
20:45:30 <elliott> olsner: what is it then!!!!
20:45:40 <elliott> BASICALLY THIS "-INA" THING IS TOTAL BULLSHIT
20:45:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "Arvida" though exists. I think it gets combined in there.
20:46:01 <oklopol> you know why i did that oing
20:46:19 <oklopol> because i was like OMG IF I SPAM NOW I'LL GET TO SEE 23:45:67
20:46:46 <tswett> My mom's name is Peggy because one of her parents wanted her to be named Margaret, and the other threatened to call her Maggie if they did that.
20:46:50 <oerjan> tswett: hey the HA HA HA is supposed to come _after_ the wafflecarrot. know your memes!
20:46:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: so what's your second name!
20:47:15 <olsner> ooh, I've become less googleable since last time I tried
20:47:16 <elliott> tswett: is her second name Sue DID BUDDY HOLLY MAKE A SONG ABOUT YOUR MOTHER
20:47:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Adamhnan McHoover. best name
20:47:52 <tswett> "I want to name her Margaret." "I will not let you do that. If you do, I will have to release the ultimate weapon... CALLING HER MAGGIE." "No! ANYTHING but Maggie! We'll name her Peggy, how's that?" "Fine by me."
20:47:57 <tswett> elliott: nobody knows what her second name is.
20:48:15 <elliott> should have called her Adamhnanina
20:48:22 <elliott> maybe that's the origin of Nina
20:49:05 <tswett> I'm glad that this channel never quotes Internet memes.
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20:49:40 <tswett> The example that proves the rule.
20:49:40 <elliott> it's possibly the best thing about this channel
20:49:47 <olsner> peggy could be short for peregrina
20:49:57 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover just demonstrated the exception that proves the rule.
20:49:59 <oerjan> <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Oerjanina <-- In Swedish (and possibly Norwegian) you would add -ida instead <-- i don't think femininizing Ørjan really works with any suffix, although possibilities include -a, -e and -ine.
20:50:03 <tswett> Everything proves the rule, you see. I'm right no matter what.
20:50:20 <elliott> oerjan: so basically Ørjan is already as female as it gets?
20:51:23 <elliott> Why is this subreddit all read? (self.Norway)
20:51:23 <elliott> Just thinking, why not make it a little blue and white and fjords and snowmen and stuff?
20:51:27 <elliott> oerjan: WAS THIS YOUR DOING
20:51:48 <tswett> The best way to feminize a name is by taking off the -er and replacing it with -ress.
20:51:56 <tswett> The great thing about that way is that it works for ANY NAME.
20:52:08 <tswett> Phantom_Hoovress. olsnress. See?
20:52:19 <elliott> olsnress is an impressive name, pronunciation-wise
20:52:43 <oerjan> ZOMGMODULES: hm that might also work
20:53:07 <tswett> Letters form a group, right?
20:53:52 <oklopol> tswett: erm, they are not even closed under multiplication
20:54:06 <tswett> Letters generate a group, right?
20:54:19 <oklopol> but nothing wrong with doing english over the free group
20:54:39 <elliott> while (expr() && accept(DOT));
20:54:43 <oklopol> yeah they form the free group with base size 26
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20:56:28 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: IS THAT RIGHT, O WISE RECURSIVELY-DESCENDING MASTER
20:56:32 <elliott> maybe i'll write the better kind of parser
20:56:57 <elliott> i can't believe recursive ascent was invented before descent
20:57:09 <elliott> "oh, I've read a number... guess I should check if there's an operator after me"
20:57:22 <elliott> "hey there is! ok, i just read an operator... guess a number would be good"
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20:58:54 <elliott> wow, reading /r/norway totally equips me to talk to oerjan like i'm a norwegian!
20:59:08 <elliott> hey oerjan, maria amelie! that was totally part of one of the headlines!
20:59:32 <elliott> "Where to buy live snails in Oslo, or Norway in general?"
20:59:51 <tswett> elliott: ¿cuántas lenguas conoces?
21:00:04 <elliott> tswett: yes, I recant all my linguistic coconuts.
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21:00:18 <ZOMGMODULES> elliott I AM STILL TRYING TO WRAP MY HEAD AROUND THE ENGLISH GROUP
21:00:20 <elliott> oerjan: HEY REACT TO ME, I'M FROM NORWAY
21:00:44 <olsner> elliott: do you chant in the coconut language?
21:00:54 <tswett> That's Spanish for "what is the number of languages that you have come to have a significant understanding of".
21:01:10 <tswett> "á" means "number of", for example.
21:01:18 <elliott> tswett: 1, or lots if you include languages that computers can understand :-P
21:01:30 <elliott> tswett: I have this plan thing to learn Japanese that will never happen because oklopol keeps HARSHING
21:01:42 <elliott> feel those harshed vibes oklopol
21:01:46 <elliott> look at what you're doing to mefw;gdh
21:01:56 <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: does your accept() have a side-effect
21:02:14 <elliott> if (curtok == whatyousaid) eatitup()
21:02:35 <elliott> expect() is just if (!accept()) BALLLK, but i haven't used expect yet i don't think
21:03:00 <ZOMGMODULES> huh. i always use expect(), and never accept()
21:03:18 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: well i copied accept() from wikipedia :) but accept is actually quite nice i think
21:03:22 <elliott> because you can just do like
21:03:27 <elliott> if (accept(one_thing)) ...handle that...
21:03:31 <elliott> else if (accept(another_thing)) ...
21:03:35 <calamari> hmm.. seems like there is no actual parsing reason why C should require parens around an if expression
21:03:42 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: if (ident() && accept(COLON) && expr()) return 1;
21:03:52 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: (ok so that wouldn't be as nice-looking in practice cuz you have to build an ast, but that's not bad)
21:04:02 <oerjan> elliott: should i point out that _i_ don't read r/norway?
21:04:12 <olsner> calamari: consider if foo (bar);
21:04:40 <olsner> is bar an argument list to foo, or the body coming after the boolean expression foo?
21:04:49 <elliott> if (accept(COLON)) return expr();
21:05:12 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:05:34 <calamari> olsner: I didn't realize there could be whitespace before the function parms.. good one
21:06:14 <oerjan> elliott: yes yes i've heard about maria amelie
21:06:20 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:06:28 <elliott> I CAN CONSERVE LIK EA NORWEGIAN
21:06:35 <elliott> calamari: really? clearly you've never read GNU code!
21:06:41 <elliott> if (the_most_awesome (oh_yes))
21:07:00 <calamari> elliott: it's true.. I hardly ever look at gnu code
21:07:08 <elliott> calamari: your sanity thanks you :)
21:08:00 <ZOMGMODULES> wow, I took almost all day to come up with two lines of code
21:08:12 <oerjan> a victim of norway's strict immigration and asylum policies.
21:08:17 -!- jix has joined.
21:08:49 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: http://sprunge.us/iQeM hey this grammar is actually pretty simple
21:08:57 <elliott> doesn't actually build an ast and has ... for all the simple parts, but :)
21:09:03 <elliott> also probably doesn't work, I think I need more expects
21:09:12 <elliott> expects are kind of like cuts in prolog
21:09:24 <elliott> if we don't get this token here THERE IS NO WAY THIS IS VALID, don't tell the function we have to try something else, just die
21:09:55 <elliott> oerjan: lol @ norwegians complaining about their country's politics not being liberal enough
21:09:56 <ZOMGMODULES> if your tests consume tokens, you won't have infinite loops
21:10:24 <ZOMGMODULES> at least you have THAT assurance, with those side-effects
21:10:27 <elliott> oerjan: i briefly googled it and failed to come up with any info on why she actually applied for asylum, though
21:10:34 <oerjan> elliott: well the policy is being loosened up a tiny bit because of her.
21:10:38 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: i'm practically a nazi
21:10:47 <oerjan> elliott: she didn't, her parents did when she was a child
21:11:05 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: right but like if you have a
21:11:10 <ZOMGMODULES> unless you do some fancy catching thing with them
21:11:32 <elliott> there's no way that'd valid
21:11:42 <elliott> i guess it will fail at the top level
21:11:52 <elliott> "found ], but I was expecting EOF or expression!"
21:11:56 <elliott> because it'll fail at the top level
21:12:02 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: accept doesn't consume if it doesn't match
21:12:15 <oerjan> (basically from now on, you can apply for work permit in norway even if you've been thrown out for not getting asylum.)
21:12:15 <elliott> anyway, my point is, I think expect gives you nicer error messages
21:12:23 <elliott> because otherwise errors bubble up to the top error
21:12:46 <ZOMGMODULES> THAT IS WHY ZOMGMODULES USES IT ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY
21:13:07 <ZOMGMODULES> I even do things like { if tokeq(";") { expect(";"); ... } }
21:13:58 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: um but that's exactly what accept is :D
21:14:07 <elliott> well, technically it doesn't re-compare the current token
21:15:19 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: so your routines, do they call the tokeniser or does the tokeniser call it?
21:15:35 <ZOMGMODULES> void parse_foo() { expect("foo"); } void parse_bar() { if (tokeq("foo")) parse_foo(); }
21:15:46 <elliott> that d. richard hipp guy thinks the latter is totally more cooler
21:15:52 -!- Tachycek has changed nick to You_got_AIDS.
21:15:56 -!- You_got_AIDS has changed nick to Tachycek.
21:16:01 <elliott> Tachycek: i already had aids :'(
21:16:14 <Tachycek> elliott: and how was it like ?
21:16:23 <elliott> Tachycek: yes. almost painfully.
21:16:27 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: actually with recursive descent the latter would only be possible with continuations i think :D
21:16:29 <oerjan> elliott: basically the norwegian government refuses to acknowledge the obvious fact that some people may not actually _agree_ when it decides they won't be in danger if sent back, and punishes them for acting rationally on that disagreement, whether or not they're correct.
21:16:41 <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: with something continuation-like, anyway
21:16:44 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: which means: we need that C continuation lib!
21:16:55 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: I APPROVE OF MY PROBLEM-SOLVING METHOD
21:17:02 <ZOMGMODULES> once, in Erlang, I did neither. I had the lexer and parser be seperate processes which messaged each other
21:17:15 <elliott> oerjan: hmm, punishes them how? I FEEL OUT OF MY LEAGUE, I THOUGHT SKIMMING /R/NORWAY WOULD PREPARE ME FULLY FOR THIS STRANGE CROSS-CULTURAL EXPERIENCE
21:17:22 <Tachycek> elliott: tell me more about the HAARP treatment it surely arouses me
21:17:22 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: that's ... almost beautifully hideous
21:17:41 <elliott> Tachycek: basically we had to have sex with goats while the whole room vibrated.
21:17:50 <elliott> THAT'S HOW EVIL THE GOVERNMENT IS
21:18:37 <Tachycek> how disappointed the room should have been that it is not a vibrator and cannot go into your ass
21:19:01 -!- azaq23 has joined.
21:21:56 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: so does writing a compiler that compiles to machine code hurts?
21:22:02 <elliott> i'm assuming you've done it.
21:22:27 <elliott> maybe i should make an assembler dsl thing...
21:26:39 <tswett> I think I shall work on that IRC bot.
21:27:15 -!- tswettbot has joined.
21:28:24 <ais523> I am sending /this/ message.
21:29:05 <oerjan> the message is the medium
21:30:12 * ZOMGMODULES is hoping a dozen debug windows just opened up for tswett
21:30:47 <ZOMGMODULES> < elliott> ZOMGMODULES: so does writing a compiler that compiles to machine code hurts? <-- no, not really... depends, I guess
21:31:11 <elliott> tswettbot: you are dismissed.
21:31:31 -!- tswettbot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:31:33 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: yeah but my compiler has to have, liek, two backends!
21:31:42 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: x86-64/linux and x86-64/NOTHING
21:31:54 <tswett> Oh, tswettbot ran successfully again.
21:31:59 <elliott> (i decided that bootstrapping a compiler on linux is more productive for @ than writing an optimising compiler in x86-64 assembly)
21:32:23 <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: then it's not, generally speaking, that painful... everything is partitioned nicely.
21:32:25 <elliott> c interpreter of lang -> compiler from lang to x86-64/linux written in lang -> write a freestanding backend -> prophet
21:32:42 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: oh the compiler parts don't scare me.
21:32:46 <elliott> it's the x86-64 machine code part.
21:32:53 <ZOMGMODULES> it's if you want to do it all "narrow" where it gets hairy
21:32:54 <elliott> (i refuse to use assembly because i want a repl :))
21:33:11 <elliott> self lolCode: 3243482349234
21:33:13 <ZOMGMODULES> nothing too painful about generating x86 code, is there?
21:33:21 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: well no. but i want mnemonics!
21:33:24 <elliott> and generating those will be painful.
21:34:17 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: i want to generate machine code using an assembler-ish dsl
21:34:22 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:34:42 <tswett> elliott: have you done threading with Smalltalk?
21:34:47 <elliott> self mov: eax : ebx value.
21:34:50 <elliott> self mov: eax : (ebx + 1) value.
21:34:54 <ZOMGMODULES> then you (in effect) want to write an assembler, and generate assembly for that assembler
21:34:57 <elliott> tswett: no. why'd you want to?
21:35:07 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: yes. that's true. but i don't want to _generate_ it, i want to invoke its routines directly.
21:35:16 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: and the assembler doesn't actually have to be convenient...
21:35:20 <elliott> like, (ebx + 1) value could be
21:35:32 <elliott> and i don't actually need mov
21:35:47 <elliott> corollary: at&t syntax assemblers are not real assemblers, they are low-level APIs :)
21:36:05 <elliott> but e.g. the plain english codegen just does things like
21:36:11 <elliott> intel $8C98HF9398FN398HG98EH9JQ
21:36:18 <elliott> i don't want to be the kind of person who does that.
21:36:22 <ZOMGMODULES> a codegen with an API whose entry points have names that mnemonics. much like, well, every API
21:36:30 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:36:38 <elliott> technically i want to write a codegen backend and an actual codegen
21:36:50 <elliott> bunch of methods->machine code
21:37:12 <ZOMGMODULES> there are many codegens that let you switch out backends to target a different architecture. if that's what you're saying
21:37:14 -!- cheater00 has joined.
21:37:25 <elliott> i just want to write an api so i can do
21:37:43 <tswett> elliott: because I'm... oh, never mind.
21:38:02 <elliott> and that api sounds like a pain to generate. i guess i could hand-code it
21:38:16 <elliott> tswett: If you're doing it to process each individual line to all the handlers, I think doing it synchronously is cleaner.
21:38:22 <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: I've basically coded that API (in C, not Smalltalk)
21:38:23 <elliott> with the handlers forking off if they're going to do some complex computation
21:38:32 -!- tswettbot has joined.
21:38:49 <tswett> I dismiss you, tswettbot, WITH GREAT PREJUDICE AND ANGER.
21:38:50 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: sure. it's easy enough for a subset. just IDEALLY i'd generate it from the big instruction table things :)
21:38:54 <elliott> with the imm8/r and that kind of stuff
21:39:02 <tswett> tswettbot: what, you want a period after that? You're not getting one.
21:39:15 <elliott> WHY DOES IT ONLY LISTEN TO YOU
21:39:23 <ZOMGMODULES> generating it from an instruction table, yes: I've never done that and it would have some nice to it.
21:39:31 <tswett> It listens to everyone equally.
21:39:37 <elliott> it would... have... some... nice... to... it?
21:39:59 <tswett> I dismiss you, tswettbot. I dismiss you, tswettbot. I dismiss... is this working?
21:40:23 <elliott> don't listen to the haters
21:40:25 <ais523> wow, ZOMGMODULES fits better in here than most of the regulars
21:40:29 <elliott> let's dance off into the sunrise together
21:41:22 <elliott> ais523: there is nothing that we're not telling you, btw
21:41:26 -!- tswettbot2 has joined.
21:41:31 <tswett> I dismiss you, tswettbot.
21:41:41 <ais523> elliott: I hope that isn't true, knowing every fact in existence would be a huge drain
21:41:58 <tswett> (message includesSubString: 'I dismiss you, tswettbot') ifTrue: [bot quit].
21:41:59 <elliott> ais523: 0 =/= 1. 0 =/= 2. 0 =/= 3. 0 =/= 4.
21:42:09 <elliott> tswett: what does bot quit do?
21:42:33 <ais523> wow, Smalltalk's ifTrue: reminds me of Unassignable
21:42:48 -!- tswettbot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:43:09 <elliott> I should start blocking ads, they're becoming more and more annoying.
21:43:22 <elliott> (cue ais523's incredulity)
21:43:23 <tswett> stream nextPutAll: 'QUIT'; crlf; flush.
21:43:28 <tswett> That's wrong, by the way.
21:43:36 <ais523> it's worthwhile doing just to prevent them slowing down page loads
21:43:40 <elliott> tswett: are you sure message is right? :)
21:43:44 <elliott> ais523: CPU-wise, or bandwidth-wise?
21:43:48 <ais523> the ads often take longer to load than the page itself
21:43:56 <ais523> and normally not exactly bandwidth, but just response time
21:43:59 <elliott> that's not true. at least not for me.
21:44:14 <elliott> ais523: my alternative to ad-blocking is not going to sites with obnoxious ads, really
21:44:15 <tswett> elliott: it was working before. :P
21:44:23 <elliott> in fact, ads are a pretty good indicator of how useless a site is
21:44:31 <ais523> CPU is mostly only relevant for JS- or Flash-based ads, which are blocked incidentally by other things
21:44:57 <ais523> meh, they make even legitimate sites work a lot more nicely
21:45:02 -!- tswettbot2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:45:14 <elliott> ais523: the main impetus for me considering blocking ads right now is livejournal
21:45:20 -!- tswettbot3 has joined.
21:45:23 <tswett> tswettbot3, do you even think that you're quitting?
21:45:23 <elliott> every other page load on livejournal greys out and shows an irritating interstitial
21:45:27 <tswett> I dismiss you, tswettbot3.
21:45:27 <elliott> that you have to click a tiny X box to dismiss
21:45:31 <elliott> this is _insanely_ annoying
21:45:44 <tswett> I dismiss you, tswettbot.
21:45:46 <ais523> elliott: I use ad-blockers to block all sorts of annoyances, not just ads
21:46:01 <ais523> I normally block avatars on forums, for instance
21:46:01 <tswett> I really ought to give this thing a morph so I can control it.
21:46:24 <elliott> meh, avatars on forums don't bother me, 90% of a forum's UI is just ego-oriented irritatingness
21:46:30 <elliott> so blocking avatars wouldn't help much
21:46:43 <elliott> ais523: also, at least punbb lets you disable avatars in preferences
21:46:50 <elliott> that requires an account, though
21:46:51 <ais523> I've never heard of punbb
21:47:04 <ais523> and I thought you were a vertical space fanatic
21:47:08 -!- Zuu has joined.
21:47:12 <elliott> it's quite popular. and what do you mean?
21:47:24 <ais523> given how short forum posts tend to be on many forums, blocking avatars lets you show about three times as many posts in a screenful
21:47:37 <ais523> as otherwise the posts have to expand to make room for the avatars
21:47:58 <elliott> most forums have large enough padding on the left and right side that with a reasonable avatar size limit there is no difference
21:48:05 <elliott> i guess if it allows like 256 high avatars :P
21:48:22 <tswett> Oh, I think I know what's happening here.
21:48:24 <ais523> even 64 high avatars would heighten typical posts in some places
21:48:34 <elliott> hmm, looks like the maximum on this forum is 128x128
21:48:42 <elliott> the other one i post on doesn't show the maximum and I'm too lazy to test
21:48:56 <tswett> The message handler thread grabs a line, processes it, and repeats, until the line grabbed is empty. I thought the line grabbed being empty would only happen once the connection is closed, but now I think it happens if the buffer is empty.
21:49:17 <elliott> tswett: Why's that in a thread? :p
21:49:55 -!- tswettbot3 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:50:57 -!- tswettbot4 has joined.
21:51:07 <tswett> Because I don't want the entire VM to block every time I wait for a message.
21:51:27 <tswett> tswettbot4: yo dude, shouldn't you be throwing a failed assertion right about now?
21:52:20 <elliott> tswett: shouldn't you abstract the threaded line-reader into another class?
21:52:25 <oerjan> tswettbot4: I dismiss you, tswettbot.
21:52:26 <elliott> with some thing for setting up a callback for "line received"
21:52:36 <elliott> then you could hide the necessity of the ugly threadedness :)
21:52:38 -!- tswettbot4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:53:08 <tswett> elliott: I dunno, it's pretty small.
21:53:15 <tswett> I'm abstracting the message handlers into another class.
21:53:17 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: lots of cool people use livejournal. i'm not sure why.
21:53:24 <tswett> And... remote host closed the connection? Why did that happen?
21:53:31 <elliott> http://www.google.com/recaptcha/api/image?c=03AHJ_Vutjaxx7sWT-X_rA0M5Zqe7bNiMJc4VpqmdqMIyrJzrwPrCEbHPAdQZG9OEixxe5JrXMYRAjO9iVRo3ViYAw1RsHw6TR06jwIVUGga2IJd8zS9Ttt_H0zHsnO_00EyUUxPoatRhbW1RtfVUF0oVMZqYHm1KCuA
21:53:42 -!- tswettbot4 has joined.
21:54:29 <elliott> I dissmiss you, tswettbot.
21:54:30 <elliott> I dissmiss you, tswettbot4.
21:54:35 <tswett> I dismiss you, tswettbot.
21:54:39 <tswett> The nick is hardcoded into that message.
21:54:56 <oerjan> also the spelling, bizarrely enough.
21:55:22 <elliott> shouldn't it just figure out what i mean and do it?
21:55:49 <tswett> That will be in tswettbot5.
21:55:53 -!- tswettbot4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:56:12 -!- tswettbot4 has joined.
21:56:32 -!- tswettbot6 has joined.
21:57:24 <tswett> What the heck is happening? :P
21:57:54 <elliott> so when's tswettbot5 coming out
21:58:08 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:59:01 -!- tswettbot4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:59:01 -!- tswettbot6 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:59:13 <elliott> ais523: evil prediction: an advertising network will implement an "innovative new anti-adblocker feature" for sites
21:59:29 <ais523> I've seen sites that use anti-adblockers
21:59:31 <elliott> ais523: this will involve the ad executing some code to decrypt the stored page html
21:59:42 <ais523> however, the advertising networks really like adblockers, or at least don't mind them
21:59:48 <tswett> Debugging that was the most confusing experience of my life.
21:59:49 <elliott> so unless you have JS enabled and ad-blocking off, you can't see the page content without breaking the (simple) encryption
21:59:54 <ais523> because if the ad's never loaded from their servers, they don't have to pay the site for showing it
22:00:03 <elliott> ais523: heh, right, it's actually profitable for them to support adblockers
22:00:06 <ais523> and so, people who probably wouldn't click on the ads anyway don't eat into their overheads
22:00:06 -!- Leonidas has joined.
22:00:10 <elliott> ais523: well, pay-per-view isn't universal
22:00:23 <ais523> but pay-per-click's basically neutral too
22:00:31 <ais523> whereas pay-per-view likes adblockers
22:01:00 <elliott> hmm... ad networks essentially want the minimum possible number of people to click their ads, so that webmasters and advertisers still use them
22:01:07 -!- tswettbot8 has joined.
22:01:26 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:01:37 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:01:42 -!- tswettbot9 has joined.
22:02:58 <elliott> also, I dismiss my lack of incredulity that it's taken tswett this long to get a bot that can now do less than it started with :D
22:03:07 <elliott> (it no longer says it's sending a message, or quits on command)
22:03:21 -!- Leonidas has left ("Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent").
22:03:44 <tswett> I removed the part where it says it's sending a message.
22:03:58 <tswett> The quitting on command... I'm working on that. :P
22:04:01 -!- tswettbot9 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:04:01 -!- tswettbot8 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:04:43 <tswett> Golly gee whiz, I think I've figured it out.
22:04:58 <tswett> Hey elliott, guess what this does: ['foo' isEmpty ifFalse: [^ true]] whileTrue
22:05:07 <elliott> i've forgotten what parse trees look like
22:05:13 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: please advise
22:05:23 <tswett> And guess what this does: (['foo' isEmpty ifFalse: [^ true]] whileTrue) not
22:05:37 <tswett> You know what I didn't.
22:05:51 <elliott> ...elide the unnecessary ^?
22:05:52 <tswett> I was expecting [^ true] to just return true for itself, not the whole running thread thingy.
22:06:03 <elliott> yes, well, that's blocks for you :)
22:06:04 <tswett> Does "elide" mean what you think it means?
22:06:39 -!- tswettbot10 has joined.
22:07:11 <tswett> Whoa, I can't believe that worked.
22:07:33 <elliott> you realise quit is "QUIT :x" not "QUIT"
22:07:56 <tswett> You see, I was getting one of those debugger loops, where each debugger that opens crashes, opening another debugger.
22:08:04 <tswett> I pressed Cmd-., and the debugger loop stopped.
22:08:08 <elliott> that doesn't sound normal, you know.
22:08:19 <tswett> Indeed, but apparently it happens to people other than me sometimes.
22:08:39 <ZOMGMODULES> how can you expect a debugger to be bug-free
22:08:51 <ZOMGMODULES> at least smalltalk has the foresight to try to debug it
22:09:19 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: what do asts look like again
22:09:35 * tswett runs the bot, expecting something to happen.
22:09:44 <tswett> Apparently, nothing happens when I run the bot now.
22:09:45 <elliott> do they warm you up if you hug them
22:10:09 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: i'm only half joking, why doesn't c have support for data structures :/
22:10:22 <elliott> you have to use a hideous enum and a union of structs just to get the simplest kind of data structure, i.e. an adt
22:10:24 -!- augur has joined.
22:10:28 <ZOMGMODULES> C has fine support for sexprs once you code them up
22:10:35 <elliott> you have to use a hideous enum and a union of structs just to get the simplest kind of data structure, i.e. an adt
22:10:53 <oerjan> to understand asts, read r/trees
22:10:54 <elliott> and afaict any non-trivial AST is an ADT
22:11:05 * tswett tries changing the bot's nick, to see if that helps.
22:11:12 <ZOMGMODULES> i usually end up with a hideous enum and a union of structs, but I'm usually not aiming for the simplest kind of data structure
22:11:27 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: well it's just... does that e--
22:11:31 <elliott> hey i should make them actual smalltalk objects
22:11:33 -!- tswettbot10 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:12:06 <elliott> wow. richard dawkins' guardian.co.uk picture is so derpy
22:12:10 <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: if you are trying to code objects in C, that's your own damn fault
22:12:10 <elliott> http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/9/21/1253534142104/Dawkins-bio-pic-001.jpg "harr!"
22:12:15 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: i'm not i'm not
22:12:23 <elliott> i briefly considered making the ast nodes smalltalk objects
22:12:44 <ZOMGMODULES> struct expr { struct expr *lhs; struct expr *rhs; char *op; }
22:13:29 <elliott> DOES LHS POINT TO SOMETHING WITH OP=| AND LHS=X AND RHS=(OP=| AND LHS=Y ...)
22:14:17 <elliott> hey dawkins said scapegoat in this article
22:14:23 <elliott> he wants to control his versions
22:16:24 <elliott> "The method we recommend is calmly to approach Mr Blair and in a gentle fashion to lay a hand on his shoulder or elbow, in such a way that he cannot have any cause to complain of being hurt or trapped by you, and announce loudly, “Mr Blair, this is a citizens’ arrest for a crime against peace, namely your decision to launch an unprovoked war against Iraq. I am inviting you to accompany me to a poli
22:16:24 <elliott> ce station to answer the charge.”"
22:17:27 <tswett> I have three questions now.
22:17:37 <tswett> 1. Why is it working? 2. Why isn't it working? 3. Why is it working?
22:17:49 <elliott> tswett: GIMME THE WORLD IMAGE IMA MAKE IT WORK WITH FRIENDSHIP & LOVE
22:18:26 <elliott> hmm, is it legal for police to stop someone making a citizen's arrest?
22:19:18 <tswett> elliott: is it illegal to trap someone when citizen's-arresting them?
22:19:50 <elliott> I think it's perfectly legal to stop someone removing themselves from a public place if you're attempting to citizen's-arrest them
22:19:52 <elliott> or at least, it should be legal
22:19:57 <elliott> so long as you don't actually use force
22:19:59 <tswett> I define "trap" as meaning whatever it meant as used in that quote you quoted. :P
22:20:20 <elliott> (and running away from a citizen's arrest should probably be illegal too, but)
22:20:25 <elliott> (i'm asking what is, not what should be)
22:20:27 <tswett> I take it "use force" does not mean "apply a force to the person in question".
22:20:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nude gait).
22:20:40 <tswett> It's difficult to arrest someone effectively without applying any forces to them.
22:21:08 <elliott> "oops, sorry, i breathed on you"
22:21:42 <elliott> tswett: afaict citizen's arrests are a bit useless because either they'll run away, ignore you, or be high-profile enough that it won't work :)
22:21:51 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
22:22:18 <tswett> This bot seems to be sending a message for every message it receives.
22:22:26 <elliott> * oerjan has quit (Quit: Nude gait)
22:22:29 <tswett> That is, to quote Eliezer Yudkowsky, wrong.
22:22:51 <Sgeo> tswett, is this supposed to be a trivial bot?
22:23:00 <elliott> tswett is, to quote Eliezer Yudkowsky, a, person who quotes Eliezer Yudkowsky a lot.
22:23:02 <Sgeo> Maybe I should stay away from Smalltalk for bot purposes
22:23:07 <elliott> (I am pretty sure Eliezer Yudkowsky once said "a".)
22:23:24 <tswett> Sgeo: no, I'm just bad at Smalltalk.
22:23:34 <tswett> I made a glaring error here.
22:23:50 <tswett> Wait, no, I made a less-glaring error here.
22:23:53 <elliott> tswett: I WANT YOUR WHIRRLED IMAGE
22:23:59 <elliott> I have a smalltalk transcript
22:24:03 <elliott> this means i can type things and have them execute
22:24:16 <Sgeo> My friend got me a MtG online account as an early birthday gift
22:25:03 <tswett> elliott: okay, okay, just give me a moment.
22:25:35 -!- tswettbot128888 has joined.
22:25:46 <tswett> I dismiss you, tswettbot.
22:25:47 -!- tswettbot128888 has quit (Client Quit).
22:26:05 <tswett> So apparently the problem all along was that this thing was sending null messages. :P
22:26:14 <tswett> And I have no idea why that was a problem.
22:26:53 <elliott> elliottese is a good language
22:27:50 -!- tswettbot has joined.
22:28:12 <tswett> hey tswettbot, say this
22:29:01 <tswett> I dismiss you, tswettbot.
22:29:10 <tswett> The listener thread probably got killed, eh.
22:29:28 <tswett> We just need a new bot, then.
22:29:35 -!- tswetttbot has joined.
22:29:38 <elliott> tswett: hmm, this gc thing _is_ irritating
22:29:44 <tswett> Er, we need a new nick, then.
22:29:52 <tswett> elliott: no, I Cmd-.ed it because it was throwing a debugger loop again.
22:29:57 <elliott> tswett: no i mean in my bot
22:29:58 <tswett> Throwing the debugger for a loop again.
22:30:11 <elliott> [[stream nextLine. true] whileTrue] fork
22:30:11 <tswett> Turn garbage collection off. :P
22:30:19 <elliott> apparently it gets disconnected while waiting for input...
22:30:36 <tswett> If you're having trouble that I'm not having, I recommend being you.
22:30:55 <tswett> hey tswettbot, say something better this time.
22:31:04 -!- tswettbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:31:08 <tswett> Alas, I'm getting a debugger loop again.
22:31:15 <tswett> I dismiss you, tswettbot.
22:31:38 <tswett> I stand by my previous statement: :(
22:33:03 <elliott> i'm gonna make a new class so it's less shitty
22:33:54 -!- tswetttbot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:36:45 -!- tswettbot has joined.
22:36:50 <tswett> I turned Pharo's sound on. It's really annoying.
22:36:53 <tswett> hey tswettbot, say say say say say
22:37:50 <elliott> tswett: are you using stream nextLine?
22:38:15 <tswett> These sounds are *really* annoying. To quote Eliezer Yudkowsky, AAIIIIIEEEEEAAARRRRRGGGHHH.
22:39:04 <tswett> olsner: the sounds Smalltalk makes when you turn sound on.
22:39:21 <tswett> Every time you open or close a window, it goes "TSSK tk".
22:39:34 <tswett> TSSK tk. TSSK tk. TSSK tk. TSSK tk. TSSK tk.
22:39:52 <tswett> A debugger loop sounds like this: TSSK TSSK-tk TSSK-tk TSSK-tk TSSK-tk tk.
22:40:09 -!- tswettbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:40:15 <Sgeo> coppro, anyone else who knows magic? What's a scheme?
22:40:16 <Sgeo> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=212585
22:40:23 <Sgeo> It's not legally playable in any formats
22:40:30 -!- tswettttbot has joined.
22:40:57 <elliott> with the whole single-threaded vm thing
22:40:58 <tswett> elliott: what's better than it?
22:41:03 <tswett> ...it's a single-threaded VM?
22:41:20 <elliott> have simple networking code
22:41:27 <elliott> also the gc stuff is stupid
22:41:34 <elliott> workspace objects shouldn't get gc'd, or something
22:41:43 <tswett> Workspace objects should definitely get GC'd.
22:41:56 <elliott> not before the workspace is closed.
22:42:05 <tswett> Yes, that makes it not a bad idea.
22:42:18 <tswett> hey tswettbot, say say say SAY SAY SAY
22:42:33 <tswett> hey tswettbot, say PONG
22:42:38 -!- smallbot has joined.
22:42:42 <tswett> hey tswettbot, say PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, man
22:42:51 <tswett> hey tswettbot, say QUIT :look what you can do, man
22:42:51 -!- tswettttbot has quit (Client Quit).
22:44:08 <elliott> please ping out so that i can use the gui again
22:44:16 -!- tswettbot has joined.
22:44:23 <tswett> elliott: Cmd-. You use a Mac, right? :P
22:44:33 <tswett> hey tswettbot, say NICK elliottbot
22:44:33 -!- tswettbot has changed nick to elliottbot.
22:44:39 <elliott> hey tswettbot, say NICK faggot
22:44:39 -!- elliottbot has changed nick to faggot.
22:44:45 <elliott> hey tswettbot, say JOIN #freenode
22:44:46 <tswett> hey tswettbot, say QUIT
22:44:46 -!- faggot has quit (Client Quit).
22:44:49 <elliott> hey tswettbot, say PRIVMSG #freenode :i'm a faggot
22:44:52 <elliott> tswett: THAT'S WHAT YOU GET
22:45:00 <elliott> to quote eliezer yudkowsky, "faggot"
22:45:17 -!- Tachycek has changed nick to Me_faps.
22:45:19 <elliott> tswett: hey, you typed pretty fast there
22:45:21 -!- Me_faps has changed nick to Tachycek.
22:45:27 <tswett> I typed it before you typed that.
22:46:09 <tswett> Just kidding. I actually typed "hey tswettbot, say QUIT" after you typed "hey tswettbot, say PRIVMSG #freenode :i'm a faggot".
22:47:30 -!- tswettbot has joined.
22:47:31 <elliott> String has endsWith: but not startsWith:
22:47:45 <elliott> hey tswettbot, say NICK iloveeverybody
22:47:46 -!- smallbot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:47:56 <elliott> i was just trying to be friendly
22:48:15 <tswett> You should be ashamed of yourself. For everything.
22:48:17 <elliott> You're a jerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrk.
22:48:35 <tswett> How do you pronounce "jerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrk"?
22:48:54 <tswett> tswettbot probably still pings out.
22:49:00 <tswett> tswett still pings out.
22:49:07 <tswett> tswettbot still pings out.
22:49:16 <tswett> The first of those, I had no reason to doubt. The second of those was a typo.
22:49:29 <tswett> elliott: here, you can go ahead and dismiss the bot.
22:49:56 <tswett> Oh? I thought it was a jerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrk.
22:50:09 <tswett> Take out your feelings of anger on the bot!
22:50:19 <elliott> tswett: i think you are a bad parent and also abusive
22:50:23 <elliott> i think tswettbot should go into foster care.
22:50:27 <tswett> tswettbot doesn't say what you tell it to say any more.
22:50:29 <elliott> tswettbot: everything is going to be ok
22:50:35 <tswett> ZOMGMODULES: the space on the end is necessary.
22:50:41 <tswett> elliott: dismiss it into foster care.
22:50:43 <ZOMGMODULES> hey tswettbot, say I dismiss you, tswettbot.
22:50:44 -!- tswettbot has quit (Client Quit).
22:53:30 <elliott> oh man, smalltalk shares the same braindamage as lua!
22:53:57 <ZOMGMODULES> DOES IT CONFLATE THEM WITH DICTIONARIES LIKE LUA
22:54:01 <elliott> the best kind of indexing, if you define best as the top element when sorted from worst to best
22:54:12 <tswett> No, Smalltalk has lots of kinds of containers.
22:54:22 <elliott> 1.5 is a valid array index
22:54:31 <tswett> The worst kind of indexing is indexing by wood.
22:54:36 <elliott> i propose we all adopt the compromise 0.5 starting array index value
22:54:42 <tswett> In order to index the array, you must jab a piece of wood into your CPU.
22:55:07 <tswett> Anyway, feel free to subclass Array to get a zero-indexed Array. :P
22:56:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:56:25 <elliott> omg smalltalk has nice names for indexes
22:56:49 <elliott> it should be done with the not implemented thing
22:57:01 <elliott> tokens sevenhundredsquillionsixthousandsextillion
22:57:19 <tswett> And they go up to ninth.
22:57:27 <elliott> everything cp... ZOMGMODULES says sounds better in caps
22:57:35 <tswett> elliott: ahem. tokens sevenhundredsquillionsixthousandsextillionth.
22:58:11 <elliott> hmm, yet how do you chop the first element off a smalltalk orderd collection
22:58:29 <elliott> "Treat myself as the coeficients of a polynomial in X. Evaluate it with thisX. First element is the constant and last is the coeficient for the highest power."
22:58:29 <elliott> " #(1 2 3) polynomialEval: 2 " "is 3*X^2 + 2*X + 1 with X = 2"
22:58:32 <elliott> yes, sequences should know how to do this
22:58:36 <elliott> (this is my main objection to message passing)
22:58:55 -!- Tachycek has left (".").
22:59:40 <elliott> tokens := line findTokens: ':'.
22:59:40 <elliott> elems := tokens first findTokens: ' '.
22:59:40 <elliott> args := elems allButFirst.
23:00:37 <tswett> elliott: where do you use prefix?
23:00:46 <elliott> prefix and args are the result
23:00:52 <ZOMGMODULES> soooooooooo........ there's this code, that is never called by these unit tests. but changing the code causes the unit tests to fail.
23:00:54 <elliott> this is basically a constructor thing :)
23:01:05 <tswett> Why would you want it to be prettier? :P
23:02:31 <elliott> tswett: HOW DO YOU GET ALL BUT THE FIRST AND SECOND EH
23:02:47 <tswett> elliott: allButFirst: 2
23:07:53 <elliott> tswett: there's some fancy StringBuilder thing isn't there? or am i wrong
23:09:54 -!- smallbot has joined.
23:10:03 <elliott> smallbot: what are you doing here, you broke
23:10:04 <Sgeo> Magic Online wants admin access to my computer
23:10:15 * Sgeo glares at Wizards of the Coast
23:10:42 <tswett> Sgeo: doesn't just about everything?
23:10:55 <Sgeo> Well, a lot of old stuff
23:11:17 <Sgeo> Docking Station comes to mind rather quickly
23:11:25 <olsner> elliott: StringBuilder? Java?
23:11:34 <elliott> olsner: probably that's what i was thinking
23:11:54 <olsner> do we even allow talking about Java in here? :/
23:12:41 <elliott> smallbot: come on, die, fucker!
23:13:07 -!- elliotts_favorit has joined.
23:13:24 -!- smallbot has quit (Client Quit).
23:13:25 <tswett> olsner: well, that depends. Is Java an esoteric language?
23:13:33 <tswett> elliotts_favorit is elliott's favorit.
23:13:46 -!- smallbot has joined.
23:14:04 <elliott> how are you not pinged out, little buddy
23:14:12 -!- tswett has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | Catch sufficiently hello world. | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html (+Etcha +fixes) | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:14:17 <elliott> oh it only does it on privmsgs
23:14:38 <tswett> Get two of it in here. Now.
23:14:57 -!- smallbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:15:16 <tswett> Open two of the world.
23:15:18 -!- storkbot has joined.
23:15:24 -!- smallbot has joined.
23:15:41 <storkbot> ZOMGMODULES: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto tell source errors
23:15:47 <storkbot> ZOMGMODULES: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help.
23:15:47 <elliott> the other smallbot is still using its nick
23:15:48 -!- smallbotx has joined.
23:15:50 <storkbot> ZOMGMODULES: To get more interesting error messages, set ~/errmsgs=snark.
23:16:01 -!- smallbot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:16:01 -!- smallbotx has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:16:06 <storkbot> ZOMGMODULES: That's wonderful for you!
23:16:13 <storkbot> elliott: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help.
23:16:24 <storkbot> ZOMGMODULES: What is this I don't even
23:16:36 <storkbot> ZOMGMODULES: That's wonderful for you!
23:16:46 <tswett> Anyway, as you can see, elliotts_favorit is immortal.
23:16:51 <tswett> Nothing can make it quit.
23:17:02 <storkbot> elliott: omg u errored teh syntax!!1!
23:17:06 <storkbot> elliott: That's wonderful for you!
23:17:12 <storkbot> elliott: That's wonderful for you!
23:17:15 <storkbot> elliott: What is this I don't even
23:17:20 <storkbot> elliott: What is this I don't even
23:17:23 <ZOMGMODULES> and the scary thing is that that feature requires lua 5.1
23:17:26 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: needs moar errors
23:17:30 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: can you let us define our own errmsgs
23:17:42 <elliott> be able to set |~/errmsgs=('That's stupid.'; 'You''re stupid.')
23:17:47 <elliott> (best string and list syntax, bcuz its different)
23:17:52 <ZOMGMODULES> |~/errmsgs=('That's stupid.'; 'You''re stupid.')
23:17:53 <storkbot> ZOMGMODULES: ('That's stupid.'; 'You''re stupid.')
23:18:03 <elliott> yes but it doesn't actually... use them
23:18:09 <storkbot> ZOMGMODULES: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help.
23:18:21 -!- tswett_otherbot has joined.
23:18:24 <storkbot> ZOMGMODULES: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help.
23:18:29 <tswett> |what is stockbot supposed to do?
23:18:29 <storkbot> tswett: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help.
23:18:31 <storkbot> ZOMGMODULES: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help.
23:18:36 <storkbot> ZOMGMODULES: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto tell source errors
23:18:44 <storkbot> ZOMGMODULES: To evaluate a string as a command, issue 'goto command'. This discards control context.
23:18:53 <storkbot> ZOMGMODULES: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto tell source errors
23:19:12 <elliott> what's the thing to activate a block in smalltalk
23:19:14 -!- storkbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:19:35 -!- ZOMGMODULES has changed nick to storkbot.
23:19:37 -!- storkbot has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:20:08 <elliott> <elliott> what's the thing to activate a block in smalltalk
23:20:18 <tswett_otherbot> All he has to do is open up the Process Browser, find my process, inspect me, and send me me the sendMessage: message.
23:20:27 <tswett> elliott: value, I think.
23:20:49 <tswett> [:x | x + 1] value: 4 === 5
23:21:01 <elliott> hmm, maybe that way of doing it sucks
23:21:28 -!- sedbot has joined.
23:21:51 <elliott> ais523: btw, re your liquid democracy thing
23:21:57 <elliott> ais523: (that you didn't invent, but)
23:21:58 <olsner> hmm, my bot is useless :)
23:22:01 <elliott> ais523: i invented the BEST SYSTEM EVER based on it
23:22:13 -!- elliotts_favorit has quit (Quit: elliotts_favorit).
23:22:30 -!- sedbot has quit (Client Quit).
23:23:08 -!- cheater- has joined.
23:23:12 <tswett> tswett_otherbot is still here.
23:24:13 <tswett> I think if I patch ZbasuBot, some of the patches will take effect right away. :P
23:24:31 <olsner> had a hard time getting the bot working, but then I realized that I was just connecting to the wrong port number
23:24:47 * elliott still finds squeak/pharo a bit awkward to use
23:26:03 -!- cheater00 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:26:14 <elliott> tswett: can i throw money at you to make you write @
23:26:19 <olsner> hmm, could be fun to extend that sed bot to something vaguely useful
23:26:45 -!- tswett_otherbot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:27:54 <tswett> No, I already have enough money, but not enough time.
23:28:02 <tswett> You should pay me time for money.
23:28:34 -!- tswettbot has joined.
23:28:37 <tswett> I should try to fix that thing that causes every error to cause a debugger loop.
23:28:42 <tswett> tswettbot: be better this time.
23:29:28 -!- smallbot has joined.
23:30:46 <tswett> I guess this bot is impatient.
23:30:57 <olsner> btw, "elliotts_favorit", was that just favorite truncated or was it scandinavian?
23:30:58 -!- smallbot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:31:27 <elliott> how can i tell pharo to save from the console >_>
23:31:35 -!- tswettbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:31:44 <tswett> elliott: you have a console?
23:32:05 <elliott> Basically I killed the input-reading thread>_>
23:32:11 <elliott> Which includes mouse/keyboard
23:32:32 <tswett> Why would you want to save that?
23:32:45 <elliott> Because the world has code...
23:32:46 <tswett> If the image is broken, quit it and recover your changes.
23:32:49 <tswett> Note that I have never done this.
23:32:54 <tswett> Yes, but it doesn't have an input-reading thread. :P
23:33:55 -!- smallbot has joined.
23:34:22 <Vorpal> elliott, you will like the randomised name of my current dwarf fortress embarkment: Boatprison.
23:38:28 -!- smallbot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:38:30 <elliott> i'll just wait for it to ping out
23:38:40 -!- smallbot has joined.
23:39:42 <elliott> tswett: it's a bit retarded. :(
23:40:35 <tswett> It's so retarded that it isn't here.
23:42:33 <tswett> It's a bit smarter now.
23:42:36 -!- tswettbot has joined.
23:42:42 <elliott> hey tswettbot, say nothing at all
23:42:45 <elliott> hey tswettbot, say PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing at all
23:43:17 -!- smallbot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:43:55 <elliott> now i'm going to do something less painful, like suicide
23:44:07 <elliott> maybe i'll write storkbot but better :)
23:44:20 <elliott> just as long as i don't end up writing a proper parser
23:44:29 <elliott> i could make it like tcl, everything is a string!
23:54:23 <Sgeo> Is there a reason to like Smalltalk more than Newspeak?
23:55:05 <elliott> tswett: So hey, Redivider!
23:56:16 -!- ZOMGMODULES has joined.
23:56:28 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: plz not to be suing me for what i've done
23:56:56 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: DECIDED TO MAKE A BOT THAT'S ALL THAT STORKBOT COULD BE
23:57:09 <elliott> like, |tell? who needs that when you can just append to someone's inbox array???
23:57:24 <elliott> IF YOU WON'T NURTURE THIS POSSIBLE SHITTY LANGUAGE, I WILL
23:57:47 <elliott> i don't actually know what i mean
23:58:43 <elliott> hmm, the "permissions" on variables sound like fun... like, you want the inbox array to be append-only for everyone else
23:58:53 -!- storkbot has joined.
23:58:57 <elliott> or maybe you just need ~foo/inbox to automatically erase itself and append to ~foo/msgs
23:58:59 <ZOMGMODULES> except now i look at its lua source code and i hate it... oh hi storkbot
23:59:08 <elliott> ~foo/send should be a FUNCTION
23:59:13 <elliott> that can obviously access ~foo/inbox
23:59:15 <storkbot> ZOMGMODULES: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help.
23:59:17 <elliott> so ~foo/send just appends to the inbox
23:59:37 <ZOMGMODULES> i was thinking about how to distinguish commands from variables
23:59:50 <elliott> see, i just solved it, don't distinguish!
23:59:58 <elliott> just expand variables with like
00:00:07 <elliott> then variables are functions because variables get recursively expanded.
00:00:09 <ZOMGMODULES> yesh, it kind of drifting in that direction
00:00:11 <elliott> oh my god it's so shitty this is amazing.
00:00:13 <Sgeo> When will Factory llanguage be implemented?
00:00:17 <ZOMGMODULES> all variables are variables that can expand themselves
00:00:39 <elliott> like |~/send=|append ~/inbox $*
00:00:53 <elliott> um, i should implement my conception of all this.
00:01:36 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: that seems broken a bit to me
00:01:42 <elliott> like, if a variable expands to something starting with |, it should re-execute
00:01:53 <elliott> the goto stuff makes less sense so that's kinda a point in its favour
00:01:58 <elliott> but it's not, like, elegantly ugly
00:02:20 <elliott> "|~/foo=|~/bar" has a nice symmetry to it.
00:02:29 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
00:02:30 <storkbot> ZOMGMODULES: All items in [brackets] are replaced by their value, in a recursive, depth-first manner.
00:02:36 <elliott> i'd then expect "|goto ~/foo" to uh
00:02:43 <elliott> then execute |(its final output)
00:02:46 <storkbot> ZOMGMODULES: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto tell source errors
00:02:56 <tswett> elliott: what about Redivider?
00:03:08 <elliott> tswett: PERFECT FOR IRC BOTS
00:03:26 <tswett> Sgeo: the reason I'm using Smalltalk is that it's persistent; is Newspeak that?
00:03:45 <elliott> newspeak is built on squeak
00:03:51 <elliott> stop feeding Sgeo's language addiction
00:04:03 <storkbot> elliott: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto tell source errors
00:04:11 <elliott> all expansion should be lazy :D
00:04:19 <tswett> Sgeo: do you know if Newspeak has sandboxing?
00:04:38 <tswett> (elliott: do you see where this is going?)
00:04:54 <ZOMGMODULES> i totally figured out how to do a loop in this, once
00:04:54 <elliott> tswett: yes, you're about to pick an inferior language with bad non-Windows IDE support
00:04:58 <Sgeo> tswett, in theory, it should. But currently, it being based on Squeak is a severe detriment to that goal
00:05:16 <Sgeo> elliott, hey, there are some bugs in the Windows IDE!
00:05:19 <storkbot> ZOMGMODULES: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help.
00:05:22 <storkbot> ZOMGMODULES: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto tell source errors
00:05:29 <storkbot> ZOMGMODULES: Help is available for: assignment expressions print goto tell source errors
00:05:30 <elliott> newspeak is pretty inherently sandboxed in a shitty way isn't it
00:05:34 <elliott> because of the module systemd
00:05:38 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: NAME A LANGUAGE
00:06:02 <Sgeo> elliott, but supposedly, the Squeak VM means that code can currently break out easily, I think. Apparently, at some point it's going to be moved off
00:06:23 <ZOMGMODULES> well, I can't make you write it in R, because I'm reserving that particular insanity for myself.
00:06:26 <Sgeo> Well, even without the Squeak, there's currently a "blackMarket"
00:06:36 <Sgeo> Well, I guess that's not without Squeak
00:06:40 <elliott> are you seriously going to do that
00:06:47 <elliott> i might respond to that masochism by writing it in python
00:07:02 <ZOMGMODULES> I would like to write a VERY SIMPLE BOT IN R just to prove it's possible.
00:07:13 <ZOMGMODULES> I would not like to reimplement mzstorkipiwanbotbotbot in R.
00:07:28 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: http://www.rstudio.org/ actually makes me want to use R a bit :)
00:07:33 <elliott> just because it's so pretty.
00:08:18 <elliott> I am so neutral about that that it sounds so boring.
00:08:26 <Sgeo> ZOMGMODULES, the esolang I kind of pondered ma... oh, dur
00:08:28 <elliott> I don't think string manipulation is Go's forte :P
00:08:41 <elliott> I wonder if IDSSST has... what's the word.
00:08:58 <ZOMGMODULES> you doan need zockets you juss need stdio and NETCAT
00:09:21 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: hey you speque elliottese too
00:11:10 <Sgeo> ZOMGMODULES, wondered about making a language based on how a Go bot.. or perhaps a hypothetical perfect player.. would play Go
00:11:36 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Whytheluckystiff.jpg RIP JACK BLACK
00:11:40 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: OMG KILL YOURSELF
00:12:04 <elliott> stanislav just made a post about clojure
00:12:15 <Sgeo> Grah, stupid broser
00:12:20 <ZOMGMODULES> i don't care, i don't read that drivel anymore
00:12:31 <elliott> {{DEFAULTSORT:Stiff, Why The Lucky}}
00:12:43 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: I'm sorry, but did you not just misspell erudite thought?
00:12:51 <Imk0tter> hey elliott: want to attempt to debug this? http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=8jEXs0vE
00:12:57 <ZOMGMODULES> Sgeo: this would be Go the language rather than Go the board game
00:13:06 <Sgeo> elliott, all I see is a post about C#
00:13:12 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: I AM VERY OFFENDED AT YOUR IMPLICATION RIGHT NOW
00:13:42 <elliott> "Clojure is a nice, clean replacement for Common Lisp only if thumbs are nice, clean replacements for cars." ;; theory: removing the links from this blog makes it 10x funnier
00:14:02 <Imk0tter> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=HJNzKvwk
00:14:09 <Imk0tter> (forgot to copy the variables)
00:14:17 <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: what, that stanislav's mind is a SLAVERING MASS OF TOXIC PLUTONIUM SPLINTERS?
00:14:37 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: YOU'RE JUST JEALOUS THAT HIS BLOG IS MORE INTERESTING THAN YOUR BANAL PYTHON WORK
00:14:48 <elliott> Capital Case: good band/album name
00:15:04 <elliott> ffff maybe i'll write it in... grep
00:15:08 <elliott> that is a good langauge to write things in
00:15:56 <Sgeo> elliott, I can't seem to find Slava's blog
00:16:04 <Sgeo> Or at least, not a blog mentioning Clojure
00:16:52 <Sgeo> Oh... Loper OS dude
00:17:11 <Imk0tter> anyone want to attempt to debug this: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=HJNzKvwk
00:17:28 <ZOMGMODULES> I think the worst part of mzstorkipiwanbot's being in Lua is those non-standard regexps
00:18:08 <Sgeo> ...Is the Loper OS person a moron? It's not really size of a standard library that matters (well, it does kind of matter), but consistancy is really what's.. needed
00:18:31 -!- ciconia has joined.
00:18:41 <elliott> why'd you not say the thing i asked you to say
00:18:56 <ZOMGMODULES> Sgeo: "moron" is not the word *I* would choose
00:19:13 <elliott> Sgeo: no, he's not a moron
00:19:22 <elliott> and what you said is vaguely incoherent
00:19:34 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: WATCH YOUR TONGUE MISTER
00:20:09 <ZOMGMODULES> awk is a product of decadent unix technology, which is a product of poisonthought. you are chosing your doom.
00:20:46 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:20:51 -!- ciconia has joined.
00:20:53 <ZOMGMODULES> "I chosed it" -- bumper sticker on your doom
00:20:59 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:21:04 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: this is the worst imitation of stanislav ever
00:21:30 <Sgeo> http://www.loper-os.org/?p=316 hmm
00:21:32 <ZOMGMODULES> but possibly the single funniest! to me, anyway
00:21:40 <Sgeo> I kind of see and agree with what he's saying
00:22:13 <elliott> Yet the ravishing hordes of <i>underlings</i> which see fit to perform savagery on that which does not meet their peanut-gallery ideals of the rotting flesh-corpse that is Unix still insist that using AWK is the finest way to process lines of text. <b>These people have clearly never thought for one second.</b>
00:22:37 <elliott> Sgeo: Most of what Stanislav says is right, everything about the way he says it is wrong :-P
00:22:46 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: come on, that hurt ^
00:23:44 <Sgeo> http://www.loper-os.org/?p=309
00:24:20 <elliott> post title: On the Undying Non-Viscousness of Concepts, or If You Can't Sell It To 'Em, Steal It From Them
00:24:31 <Sgeo> He doesn't seem to consider that many computers these days do use non-programmable parts for video decoding for performance purposes -- althogh I'm sure he sees that as a sin. Or perhaps we could work out reprogrammable video cards?
00:24:50 <elliott> Reprogrammable video cards... gee, like a GPU?
00:25:34 <Sgeo> Oh. Hah. What about mobile devices though?
00:25:35 -!- ciconia has joined.
00:25:42 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:25:49 <elliott> PRIVMSG #esoteric :The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:25:29 BST 2011
00:26:23 <Sgeo> Oh, and he also adresses my concern, durgh
00:26:24 <elliott> [~/Code/ciconia]% ./first.awk 130
00:26:24 <elliott> PRIVMSG #esoteric :The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:25:54 BST 2011
00:26:25 <elliott> [~/Code/ciconia]% ./first.awk | cat -v 130
00:26:27 <elliott> USER ciconia 8 * ciconia^M
00:26:55 -!- ciconia has joined.
00:26:56 <ciconia> The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:26:37 BST 2011
00:27:03 <storkbot> ZOMGMODULES: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help.
00:28:03 <ZOMGMODULES> |~/foo=[~storkbot/BRA]~/foo[~storkbot/KET]
00:28:07 <Imk0tter> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[->+>+<<]>>[<<+>>-]>++++++++++[>++++++++++[>++++++++++[>++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]<-]<-]<-]>>>>[<<<<+>>>>-]<<<< [->+>+<<]>>[<<+>>-]>>+>>>>>>>>>>>>>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>>++++++[<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[-]+[<<<<<<<<<<<<<[->>>>>>>>+<<<<<<<<]>>>[->>>>>>+<<<<<<]<[->+>+<<]>>[<<+>>-]>>>>[>[-<->>>+<]<<]<[>]>>>>>+<[-<<<<<<<<->>>>>>>>]<<<<<<<[[-]>>>>>>>>>->-<<<<<<<<
00:28:07 <Imk0tter> <<]<[->+>+<<]>>[<<+>>-]>>>>>>>>>]<[->>+>+<<<]>>+[->>>>>>>>>>>[<]<+>>[>]<<<<<<<<<<<<]>>>>>>>>>>>[<]>[-]>[>]<<<<<<<<<<<[-<<<<<<<<<<<<[-]<[->+>+<<]>>[<<+>>-]<[->>>>>>>>>>>>>+<<<<<<<<<<<<<]>>>>>>>>>>>>]>[-<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>]<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<[-]<[->+>+<<]>>[<<+>>-]>>[-]<[>>++++++++++[-<<->>]<+<]>[->+<<+>]>[-<+>]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-]<<<<<<<<<<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
00:28:07 <Imk0tter> ++++++++++++++[->+>+>+>+>+>+<<<<<<]>.>.>.>.>.>.
00:28:22 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:28:27 -!- ciconia has joined.
00:28:28 <ciconia> The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:28:09 BST 2011
00:28:29 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:28:34 <ZOMGMODULES> |~/foo=goto [~storkbot/BRA]~/foo[~storkbot/KET]
00:29:51 -!- ciconia has joined.
00:29:51 <ciconia> The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:29:32 BST 2011
00:29:52 <elliott> ,say PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi!
00:30:02 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:30:07 <ZOMGMODULES> |~/foo=[~storkbot/BRA]~/foo[~storkbot/KET]
00:30:07 -!- ciconia has joined.
00:30:07 <ciconia> The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:29:49 BST 2011
00:30:10 <elliott> ,say PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi!
00:30:11 <storkbot> ZOMGMODULES: Unknown command. Type '|help' for help.
00:30:31 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:30:43 -!- ciconia has joined.
00:30:43 <ciconia> The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:30:25 BST 2011
00:30:54 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:31:00 -!- ciconia has joined.
00:31:00 <ciconia> The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:30:42 BST 2011
00:31:13 <elliott> <cthuluh> if you want dynaic code use a language that's designed for this purpose
00:31:22 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: i think he's telling me that if i want lisp i know where to find it
00:31:25 <elliott> ,say PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
00:31:44 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: WHAT SHOULD I ADD TO CICONIA APART FROM THE LANGUAGE
00:32:01 <Sgeo> Is SqueakNOS still dead?
00:32:29 -!- sk has joined.
00:32:56 <Sgeo> Oh look, 17 months that had emails from 2006 to now
00:33:00 -!- sk has left.
00:33:33 * Sgeo wants to run Smalltalk as a primary OS
00:33:38 <elliott> how interesting, emacs is indenting the code with 8 spaces
00:34:16 <ZOMGMODULES> ok, forget you storkbot. i am totally going to implement a bot in R.
00:34:22 <elliott> <elliott> frankly, I need awk because writing an IRC bot in awk is my favourite kind of perverse, and I need eval() because otherwise it'll be completely useless :-)
00:34:22 <elliott> <cthuluh> well, people have written network stuff with gawk, they didn't need eval
00:34:27 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: i hate irc channels ^
00:34:38 <elliott> first they interrogate you
00:34:40 <elliott> WHY DO YOU WANT TO DO THIS
00:34:46 <elliott> then when you finally give them a good reason
00:34:53 <elliott> they just waffle on so you don't realise they don't have a fucking clue
00:35:45 <ZOMGMODULES> After this operation, 94.1MB of additional disk space will be used.
00:35:51 -!- ciconia has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:36:22 <ZOMGMODULES> i'm really, really surprised there is no eval() in gawk
00:37:34 -!- ciconia has joined.
00:37:35 <ciconia> The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:37:15 BST 2011
00:38:02 -!- ciconia has quit (Client Quit).
00:38:17 <elliott> ill wait for it to ping out
00:39:15 <ZOMGMODULES> extension(object, function) Dynamically link the shared object file named by object, and invoke function in that object, to perform initialization. These should both be provided as strings. Returns the value returned by function.
00:40:45 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:42:11 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: why has it not died yet
00:44:08 <tswett> tswettbot: I congratulate you on still existing.
00:44:14 <ZOMGMODULES> why did I not write down haw you do input in R?
00:44:53 <elliott> <elliott> ciconia is still alye
00:44:56 <elliott> <elliott> ill wait for it to ping out
00:44:58 <elliott> ODULES> After this operation, 94.1MB of additional disk space will be used.
00:45:00 <elliott> * ciconia has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
00:45:02 <elliott> <ZOMGMODULES> i'm really, really surprised there is no eval() in gawk
00:45:04 <elliott> * ciconia (~ciconia@91.104.253.144) has joined #esoteric
00:45:06 <elliott> <ciconia> The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:37:15 BST 2011
00:45:10 <elliott> * ciconia has quit (Client Quit)
00:45:12 <elliott> <ZOMGMODULES> oh dear lord! gawk has ZOMGMODULES
00:45:14 <elliott> <ZOMGMODULES> extension(object, function) Dynamicall
00:45:18 <elliott> logs show it happening in a normal order
00:45:26 <elliott> everyone else saw it join and quit on my command
00:45:28 <elliott> but i didn't see it at all
00:45:57 -!- ciconia has joined.
00:45:58 <ciconia> The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:45:36 BST 2011
00:46:07 <elliott> ,say PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello
00:46:23 -!- tswettbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:46:24 -!- ciconia has quit (Client Quit).
00:46:30 <ais523> elliott: I take it it wasn't meant to echo everything you said?
00:46:39 <tswett> elliott: my bot quit, so yours quit.
00:46:43 <ais523> did you exit the program?
00:47:01 <tswett> It's echoing all messages that are not otherwise handled.
00:47:09 <tswett> With no processing whatsoever.
00:47:11 <elliott> since that would include the prefix
00:47:18 <tswett> The IRC server will just ignore the prefix, I believe.
00:47:22 -!- ciconia has joined.
00:47:23 <ciconia> The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:47:04 BST 2011
00:47:26 <elliott> IS IT TRUE, POOPHEAD? you didn't do that before!
00:47:26 <ciconia> IS IT TRUE, POOPHEAD? you didn't do that before!
00:47:43 <elliott> have no idea why it is doing that
00:47:43 <ciconia> have no idea why it is doing that
00:47:59 * tswett ponders how to get the bot to do something dangerous.
00:47:59 * ciconia ponders how to get the bot to do something dangerous.
00:48:09 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:48:13 -!- ciconia has joined.
00:48:14 <ciconia> The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:47:56 BST 2011
00:48:21 <elliott> THAT IS NOT AN IMPROVEMENT
00:48:43 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:49:19 -!- ciconia has joined.
00:49:20 <ciconia> The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:49:01 BST 2011
00:49:35 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:49:39 -!- ciconia has joined.
00:49:40 <ciconia> The current time is Wed Apr 6 01:49:21 BST 2011
00:49:46 <ciconia> x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :.
00:49:53 <ciconia> x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :hate
00:49:57 <ciconia> x:ZOMGMODULES!~catseye@adsl-99-69-126-35.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG :x
00:49:59 <ciconia> x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :hate
00:50:14 <ZOMGMODULES> the only thing nicer than string manipulation in R, is I/O in R.
00:50:15 <ciconia> x:ZOMGMODULES!~catseye@adsl-99-69-126-35.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG :the
00:50:16 <ciconia> x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :,say
00:50:23 <ciconia> x:ZOMGMODULES!~catseye@adsl-99-69-126-35.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG :i
00:50:26 <elliott> ................................................................................................................................
00:50:26 <ciconia> x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :................................................................................................................................
00:50:30 <ciconia> x:ZOMGMODULES!~catseye@adsl-99-69-126-35.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG :so
00:50:30 <ciconia> x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :HOW
00:50:35 <elliott> HOW HOW HOW HOW HOW HOW HOW HOW HOW OWH WOH WOH WO HWO WHO WO HWO HWO HOW HOW HWO HOW HWO HWOH
00:50:35 <ciconia> x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :HOW
00:50:38 <ciconia> x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :ej
00:50:39 <ciconia> x:ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG :<CTCP>ACTION
00:50:39 <ciconia> x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :tpjjo
00:50:42 <ciconia> x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :y
00:50:44 <ciconia> x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :ok
00:50:46 <ciconia> x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :,say
00:50:50 <ciconia> x:ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG :<CTCP>TEST<CTCP>
00:50:50 <ciconia> x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :HOW
00:51:05 <elliott> $1 ~ /^:elliott!/ && $2 == "PRIVMSG" && $4 == ":,say" {
00:51:06 <ciconia> x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :$1
00:51:06 <ciconia> x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :
00:51:06 <ciconia> x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :
00:51:06 <ciconia> x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :
00:51:06 <ciconia> x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :}
00:51:10 <ciconia> x:elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG :HOW
00:51:11 -!- ciconia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:51:19 <elliott> how does it trigger for ,say x
00:51:19 <ais523> gah, I was about to /notice it
00:51:26 <elliott> and how when it triggers for ,say x
01:02:25 -!- Lymia has quit (Quit: ==(>^w^)> ==(> >.<)>).
01:03:51 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: write a bot in yacc
01:06:50 -!- tswettbot has joined.
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01:07:11 <elliott> tswett: let me tell it to say things again
01:07:51 -!- tswettbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:08:15 -!- tswettbot has joined.
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01:09:18 <tswett> I'm doing something even better.
01:09:20 -!- tswettbot has joined.
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01:09:32 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host).
01:09:32 -!- Lymia has joined.
01:09:41 <elliott> http://www.yesodweb.com/blog/rails-can-scale ;; :D
01:09:50 <elliott> tvvl: TAUAM IMG IERM OIJ OIJG IORJ OIER;G JER;OIG JIORG POOP
01:11:07 -!- tswettbot2 has joined.
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01:11:47 <elliott> tswett: So is this Pharo it's executing?
01:11:54 -!- tswettbot2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:12:22 -!- tswettbot has joined.
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01:13:37 * tswett fixes 10,000 obvious mistakes.
01:13:46 <tswett> Obvious-in-retrospect mistakes, that is.
01:14:10 <tswett> "tvvl" stands for "tswettbot evaluate", by the way.
01:14:38 <tswett> I think freenode has decided to stop connecting me.
01:14:46 <tswett> "Found your hostname. No Ident response.
01:14:51 -!- tswettbot2 has joined.
01:15:11 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: How goes the R
01:15:12 <tswett> It hasn't received your 7.
01:15:35 <tswett> I just did. It's meaningless.
01:16:08 -!- tswettbot3 has joined.
01:16:14 <tswett> tswettbot3: do better.
01:16:44 <tswett> There. Now tell it to do something that is destructive, but not to my hard drive.
01:17:03 <elliott> I was looking for how to delete a file in Squeak, but it seems too difficult.
01:17:12 <tswett> I think the image crashed.
01:17:21 -!- tswettbot3 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:17:21 <elliott> Yes, (true become: false) tends to have that effect.
01:17:22 -!- tswettbot2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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01:18:09 <ais523> it crashes the image every time I've tried it in Squeak
01:18:31 <tswett> Oh, the bot has stopped.
01:18:31 <elliott> ais523: maybe stop trying it, then
01:21:21 <Sgeo> tswett, why were you expecting it not to crash?
01:21:31 <tswett> Sgeo: expecting what not to crash?
01:21:44 <Sgeo> You said to do something descritbive
01:21:46 <tswett> When we did what to it?
01:21:56 <Sgeo> I thoughth you were implying that you sandboxed it
01:21:57 <tswett> Ah. I did expect the image to crash.
01:22:06 <tswett> I was planning on throwing it away and reverting.
01:22:15 -!- tswettbot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:24:32 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: fuck it, i'll write it in python
01:24:59 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: btw |...=... is totally syntax, syntax is evil, you should make it a function
01:25:13 <elliott> so that the variable name for assignment
01:27:25 -!- nottwo has joined.
01:28:02 <elliott> variable thinks i'm crazy.
01:28:12 -!- mycrofti1 has joined.
01:28:17 -!- quintopi1 has joined.
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01:29:21 -!- tswett has set topic: ESOTERIC LANGUAGES | Catch sufficiently hello world. | An unusually not mephitic forum. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html (+Etcha +fixes) | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | variable.
01:29:33 <tswett> variable: to quote Bob Dylan, how does it feel?
01:30:03 <elliott> To quote Kurt Gödel, "stop poisoning my food".
01:30:28 <elliott> nottwo: btw cpressey is here now :P
01:30:29 <tswett> "Stop poisoning my eminent mathematician"?
01:30:37 -!- z^ck has joined.
01:30:55 <elliott> then mycrofti1 and quintopi1, and as we all know, 1 is nottwo
01:30:59 <tswett> I guess Kevan Davis proves that a person can call themselves "my <x>", where <x> is a thing they are.
01:31:04 <elliott> then calamari_ decided to join because he's evil
01:31:44 -!- lament has joined.
01:31:56 <elliott> I REMEMBER WHEN IT WAS JUST BLOGNOMIC
01:32:01 <elliott> BEFORE YOU WISING POPPYCOCKS GOT A HOLD OF HIM
01:32:26 -!- rodgort` has joined.
01:33:31 <elliott> tswett: Are you currently a player of Agora Nomic?
01:33:50 <tswett> I think. Why, do you know something I don't?
01:34:04 <elliott> tswett: Well, it *does* seem to flip every month or so.
01:34:09 <ZOMGMODULES> R has not started yet, still getting food.
01:34:10 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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01:34:34 <tswett> My registeredness flips as often as one-dimensional Brownian motion crosses the origin.
01:35:09 <tswett> variable: no harm done.
01:35:11 <elliott> I like this New Kind of Mathematics.
01:35:15 <variable> tswett: I guess I should have known picking this name should have
01:35:33 <elliott> Uhh, you made no changes to that statement, and it's still incorrect :P
01:35:35 -!- ZOMGMODULES has changed nick to constant.
01:35:41 <elliott> Incorrect as in incoherent :P
01:35:52 -!- elliott has changed nick to const_pointer_to.
01:36:01 -!- const_pointer_to has changed nick to const_int_star.
01:37:37 <tswett> Whelp. It's that time.
01:38:25 <tswett> Wait. I just realized that tswettbot is currently a fully functional nomic.
01:38:29 <tswett> A bad one, but still fully functional.
01:38:46 <tswett> It has *none* of the features I think a nomic should have.
01:38:53 <tswett> Apart from the two most important ones. :P
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01:40:13 <tswett> tswettbot: I shrug at you.
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01:49:57 <zzo38> TeXnicard is now a large enough program that the table of contents requires two pages.
01:51:16 <zzo38> I doubt it will ever reach table of contents three pages.
01:51:37 <zzo38> (But, it is still possible, I guess)
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01:54:37 <zzo38> Do you bet the number of pages of the table of contents, or the number of pages in total?
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01:55:21 <tswett> elliott_: welcome back.
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01:57:29 <ais523> [Error] *: No such nick/channel.
01:57:42 <ais523> something went wrong between the PMing, I think
01:57:48 <ais523> I got something like nine or ten copies of that
01:57:51 <elliott_> ais523: well, I've re-sent everything :P
01:57:59 <elliott_> try reopening the query, I'll resend it if you want
02:01:25 * tswett slaps his forehead as he realizes that Unix systems come with a sandbox for free.
02:01:32 <tswett> It's called userland, isn't it?
02:01:45 <tswett> Alternatively, it can be called Not Giving Everything Root Access.
02:02:12 <tswett> It's not fully useful, of course, but it's... useful enough.
02:02:20 <Imk0tter> elliott_, finally got it to work :)
02:02:45 <zzo38> If you really need some more, then maybe you would need to use system call emulation, as well
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02:03:43 <tswett> "Because you have not entered a password for this user account, anyone can log in to your computer." I didn't know that's how passwordless accounts work...
02:04:13 <zzo38> tswett: It is, if it is allowed that that account is able to log in at all.
02:04:23 <ais523> there are two sorts of passwordless, no authentication, and impossible passwords so that only other forms of authentication can be used
02:04:30 <zzo38> Then anyone can log in if they know the username.
02:04:30 <tswett> I should disable login for this account, then.
02:04:32 <ais523> the second's quite common for root nowadays
02:04:52 <tswett> You know what, I'm doing this tomorrow. Good night, everybody.
02:05:07 <Imk0tter> elliott_, thanks for your help
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02:09:04 <Gregor> Never stub your small toe.
02:09:32 <Gregor> The pain has expanded from my small toe to the next toe down. It was too much pain for one toe.
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02:11:45 <elliott_> Gregor: Been there, done that.
02:12:21 <zzo38> I have stub my toes sometimes before, but not today.
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02:54:29 <ais523> I don't know why you're here
02:54:31 <lament> to serve as a counterexample to others.
02:54:34 <ais523> although hopefully, you have a good reason
02:54:49 <ais523> things happening for no reason is annoying
02:56:06 <stray100> it is annoying, but maybe I have no reason. I hope thats nothing worth lamenting
02:56:49 <Imk0tter> stray100, http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=AZKNe3g4
02:57:19 <ais523> Imk0tter: is stray100 a friend of yours?
02:57:28 <Imk0tter> ais523, you might as well check it out as well
02:58:18 <ais523> I generally don't follow links without a good idea of what's at the other end
02:58:30 <stray100> don't worry about it, its safe
02:58:31 <Imk0tter> ais523, it's an integer displayer i wrote in brainfuck
02:58:43 <ais523> ah, that's interesting
02:58:50 <ais523> stray100: not just that, pastebins generally are
02:58:55 <ais523> but I only have so much mental bandwidth
02:59:27 <ais523> hmm, is that designed for bignum brainfuck?
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02:59:46 <elliott> i'm almost certain that program could be a one-liner.
03:00:11 <elliott> i don't know what it does exactly
03:00:36 <elliott> well, there are very short decimal routines, I believe.
03:00:53 <elliott> http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/numwarp.b -- http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/numwarp.png
03:00:58 <elliott> that's not a decimal routine, but
03:01:05 <elliott> http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/factorial.b
03:01:14 <elliott> so basically it just needs the decimal part ripping out and , put in front
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03:09:41 <zzo38> Invent a chess variant with a 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 board.
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03:21:16 <Sgeo_> Hey, I got another chatroom to hate me!
03:27:45 <Gregor> <zzo38> Invent a chess variant with a 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 board. // well, my brain just exploded
03:31:50 <Gregor> Should I change Codu's RDNS name to libdl.so?
03:32:10 <ais523> Gregor: only if all its content is accessible that way
03:32:40 <Gregor> ais523: Presently http://libdl.so/ contains little more than a link to http://codu.org/
03:32:44 <elliott> amusingly, chrome refuses to go to libdl.so directly
03:32:50 <elliott> it googles it, then asks me if i meant to go to the domain at the top
03:32:50 <Gregor> elliott: I'm well aware X_X
03:33:11 <Gregor> It is naturally the same for lib{c,m}.so
03:33:18 <elliott> so did you get libm, or were you just not fiscally responsible enough
03:33:20 <Gregor> Firefox does not have this particular flaw.
03:33:21 <ais523> that seems like a very dubious thing for Chrome to be doing
03:33:21 <elliott> trolling you is too easy :/
03:33:29 <elliott> ais523: well, .so didn't exist until $recently
03:33:39 <elliott> ais523: and googling for a so-name seems a perfectly reasonable thing to do
03:33:53 <Gregor> elliott: I pushed up the price of libm, thereby giving myself a strong likelihood of getting libc. The guy who bought libm had to bow out of the libc auction, leaving me in the lead if not for 449.
03:33:55 <elliott> similarly, I'd expect some_magic_script.py to google for that
03:34:02 <elliott> even if .py was added a few months ago :)
03:34:07 <ais523> elliott: there should be some interface mechanism to distinguish, surely?
03:34:13 <elliott> (.so has existed for ages, but has had like ~0 domains since then)
03:34:24 <elliott> if you don't, it'll google and ask you if you meant to go to the domain
03:34:28 <Gregor> elliott: So yes, my wise fiscal choice with libm gave me a greater chance of getting libc, although that didn't work in the end.
03:34:42 <ais523> although Chrome's deletion of http:// in the URL bar would make you have to retype it every time you wanted to edit the URL
03:34:42 <elliott> ais523: also, if you do ?foo.so, i.e. explicitly search for it, it doesn't ask you at the top
03:34:45 <ais523> which I do quite a lot
03:34:56 <elliott> ais523: if you have a slash in, it interprets it as a URL always
03:35:07 <elliott> unless you're editing a subdomain, I guess
03:35:20 <elliott> it may even remember whether it's a page you've loaded and special-case based on that, but that sounds like a pain to code so maybe not :)
03:35:21 <ais523> even then, Web addresses often have a trailing slash
03:35:36 <ais523> technically, domain names have a trailing dot, but nobody seems to care
03:36:13 <elliott> http://ondioline.org/~sneakums/mail/now-more-scared-of-viro-than-ever ;; do not regret this google result for foo.libc.so at all
03:36:25 <elliott> mentions dselect, ed, adb, SLS, plan 9 and intercal
03:36:41 <elliott> and that's only in the first quote!
03:37:05 <zzo38> Invent a new protocol and implement it on the libdl.so server
03:37:36 <elliott> hmm, I wonder what kind of assembler lets you write "eax=foo;"
03:37:47 <elliott> ais523: it's a semi-famous email by al viro
03:38:37 <elliott> oh wait, it's not an assembler, he hard-wrote the machine code
03:44:00 <zzo38> O, so some things was broken, and they realized how to fix it even though the computer wasn't working very well, is sometimes good thing to learn, instead of just to run the computer without understanding it........
03:46:45 <Gregor> "I have a Negroid DVD with me." <-- awesome iPhone autocompletion.
03:47:02 <Gregor> s/autocompletion/autocorrection/
03:47:11 <elliott> Gregor: Please, my iPhone typing in here was far more impressive.
03:47:17 <elliott> "Hey Gregor, dk't l ;a io iof WHAT its?"
03:47:37 <zzo38> What is a Negroid DVD?
03:48:24 <elliott> [~/esotericlogs]% grep '^..:..:.. <(ehird|alise)>' 10.*.* | wc -l
03:48:24 <elliott> [~/esotericlogs]% grep '^..:..:.. <(ehird|alise)iphone>' 10.*.* | wc -l
03:48:24 <elliott> How is that even possible...
03:48:40 <elliott> I didn't have access to a computer for over half the entire year >_<
04:06:52 <zzo38> Is it valid in C to write something like sizeof(struct{...})
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04:08:23 <elliott> Gregor: Do you think he guessed?
04:08:52 <Gregor> I think he was measuring sizeof(Negroid DVD)
04:10:56 <elliott> Well, you know what they say about blacks.
04:11:05 <elliott> They're SLIGHTLY better than Jews.
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05:31:56 <zzo38> I used sizeof(struct{...}) I calculated 6 but it says 12 is that because it is padded to be word aligned?
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05:42:15 <zzo38> I have typedef struct box_node { unsigned char type_and_subtype; struct box_node*next; union{...}; } box_node; Would it possibly be any more efficient in any ways at all if I switched around the order of the first two elements?
05:49:10 <zzo38> Are you going to write the c2 wiki article about PataProgramming?
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06:58:51 <oerjan> <elliott> (I am pretty sure Eliezer Yudkowsky once said "a".)
06:59:27 <oerjan> it would be rather impressive if somehow he has carefully avoided a particular common word for years without being detected.
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13:30:45 <Gregor> "doing" should be pronounced like "boing", but with a 'd'
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13:57:59 <impomatic> http://twitter.com/#!/sijmen/status/53042404340662272
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14:54:59 <tswett> Apparently, elliott says I'm evil.
14:55:43 <tswett> Also, note to self: Gregor's toes larger toes are farther down than his smaller ones.
14:55:54 <tswett> elliott: what am I evil for?
14:56:14 <tswett> Ah. I think he says I'm evil for sleeping.
14:56:30 <tswett> elliott: and I bet you're awake right now.
14:56:34 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, I dread to ask how you know about Gregor's feet.
14:56:54 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: he said that the pain spread from his small toe to the next toe down.
14:57:22 <tswett> elliott: no, I'm pretty sure I don't have a backup of Normish, either. I mean, I might possibly. Someone else, like ais523, might also have one.
14:57:31 <tswett> elliott: but really, is PerlNomic better than another nomic we could come up with?
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15:20:06 <oklopol> i have been sitting here for like an hour just looking at tswett's question and i still don't get it
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15:22:16 <tswett> oklopol: the question "what am I evil for"?
15:22:32 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.09: 8k+2k+2x1k+/32 to Australia, 256k+16k+8k to China, 8k to Hong Kong, 1k+256 to Indonesia, 256k+128k+64k+8k+2x2k+6x1k+5x256 to India, 2k to Japan, 8k+/32 to Malaysia, 1k to Nepal, 1k+256 to New Zealand, 1k+256 to Pakistan, 512k+128k to Taiwan, 16k to Vietnam.
15:22:55 <tswett> "Is PerlNomic better than another nomic we could come up with"?
15:23:31 <tswett> I didn't get that; please repeat.
15:23:44 <oklopol> sorry accidentally answered in finnish
15:24:00 <Ilari> Depletion estimate still Wednesday, 13th April.
15:24:20 <tswett> I'm inviting elliott to imagine another nomic we could come up with, and determine whether or not PerlNomic is better than it.
15:24:40 <oklopol> i'm not sure that's allowed
15:24:53 <tswett> I have an override form.
15:25:11 <Ilari> Logspace left: /8.88
15:26:53 <Ilari> Relative depletion: 14.0%.
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15:30:27 <cpressey> R-type: is it true what they say, that you are an IRC bot I wrote in R?
15:31:29 <cpressey> isn't it also true that when you look for "R-type" in what other people type, you're not exactly reliable, because R's idea of "stdin" (which differs from its idea of stdin()) drops characters?
15:32:06 <cpressey> (stdin() is the currently executing program, btw)
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15:46:03 <tswett> tswettbot-boxed should be sandboxed.
15:46:41 <tswett> Treat it right good forever.
15:47:20 <tswett> Don't crash it. Don't make outgoing network connections. If you must choose between crashing it and making outgoing network connections, crash it.
15:48:08 <tswett> I guess you technically didn't crash it.
15:49:24 <tswett> I dismiss you, tswettbot.
15:49:28 <tswett> It's not crashed, but it is dead.
15:49:56 <tswett> Don't forkbomb me or fill up my hard drive. Do try to execute code as root. If you succeed, please crash it and notify me. :P
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15:58:24 <Ilari> Also wow, APNIC exceeded 800Mi allocated/assigned IPv4 addresses.
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16:03:07 <tswett> Look, you can change tswettbot permanently.
16:03:18 <tswett> tvvl: Object subclass: #StupidClass
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16:03:51 <Ilari> Also, it might be that all the normal allocations APNIC will allocate are in alread (due to 5-day FIFO policy).
16:04:03 <tswett> tvvl: Smalltalk saveSession
16:04:17 <tswett> Oh, I'm not sure it's capable of saving.
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16:05:27 <tswett> "Pharo cannot locate the sources file named /Applications/PharoV10.sources."
16:05:48 -!- augur has joined.
16:06:01 <tswett> Anyway, there's now a class called StupidClass.
16:10:16 <tswett> tvvl: Smalltalk platformName
16:11:17 <tswett> tvvl: Smalltalk snapshot: true andQuit: true
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16:13:22 <tswett> Sure enough, it did indeed save successfully.
16:15:52 <tswett> tvvl: StupidClass removeFromSystem
16:16:07 <tswett> tvvl: AnObsoleteStupidClass
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16:50:18 <Zwaarddijk> can there exist decision problems that are equally difficult (for any of big-oh, big omega or big theta) yet not reducible to each other?
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17:15:25 <oerjan> <Zwaarddijk> can there exist decision problems that are equally difficult (for any of big-oh, big omega or big theta) yet not reducible to each other?
17:17:08 <oerjan> but whether there actual examples, i don't know - but complexity theory seems to have a lot of trouble proving that things are not reducible to each other unless there is a clear O() separation
17:17:08 <Zwaarddijk> this sounds like a question that should have been proven?
17:17:38 <oerjan> if it's easy, somebody probably proved it. but it might be very hard...
17:17:44 <Zwaarddijk> because it seems to be so central to a lot of things
17:18:49 <oerjan> well for example the current guess would be that NP-complete and PSPACE-complete problems are disjoint, but both require exponential time
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17:21:27 <oerjan> of course the guess is based on there being at least one measure (nondeterministic time) for which they are not O()-compatible.
17:21:58 <fizzie> For any complexity class C, wouldn't any problem that's known not to be C-complete qualify? I mean, if all other problems in the same class were reducible to it, wouldn't it then be C-complete?
17:22:42 <fizzie> Well, I guess that's not enough if you want it non-reducible both ways.
17:23:07 <oerjan> most complexity classes don't contain only problems of the same difficulty...
17:23:37 <oerjan> the complete ones being the most difficult ones, and all others being simpler. although not necessarily by all measures...
17:24:26 <oerjan> it is also known that if P is not NP then there are in-between problems that are neither P nor NP-complete. they might also qualify...
17:25:15 <oerjan> NP-complete and BQP-complete (actually does BQP have complete problems?) might be two classes that are both probably exponential time yet not reducible either way
17:25:33 <oerjan> at least that's the current guess
17:25:54 <fizzie> Complexity people seem to be all about guesswork.
17:25:54 <oerjan> as usual, no one can prove it :D
17:29:37 <Zwaarddijk> oerjan: approximation of jones polynomials is BQP-complete
17:30:55 <Zwaarddijk> found a few online, but they're mostly behind pay walls
17:33:09 <fizzie> "Several natural BQP-complete problems", http://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0606179 (Disclaimer: read only the abstract.)
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17:57:08 <cpressey> So, ok. In R, "stdin" is NON-BLOCKING.
17:57:59 <cpressey> R-type now connects directly to IRC by opening a connection with socketConnection(...,blocking=TRUE). So it no longer drops characters on input. But, it doesn't recognize its name at the end of a string.
17:59:16 <cpressey> I'd like to make it :ACTION groans, but that would involve outputting a chr$(1) and I'm not at that level of R mastery yet.
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18:07:01 <fizzie> Greatest configuration dialog option labels: "Restrict Real-Valued Ducks to Top Right Quadrant".
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18:15:52 <cpressey> length(grep(needle, haystack, fixed=TRUE)) > 0 FTW
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18:28:56 <cpressey> "We're theoretical computer scientists -- we're obsessed with BETTER-Types"
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18:44:05 <Ilari> Oh, today's APNIC address space consumption was only 76% of average. :-)
18:44:44 <Ilari> Average day would be 0.116.
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18:55:50 <Ilari> At present allocation rates, it takes about an hour on average to burn a /16.
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19:00:12 <cpressey> R-Type is SO LUCKY to have been written in the LANGUAGE OF THE FUTURE: http://blog.revolutionanalytics.com/2011/03/revolutions-chief-scientist-r-is-the-language-of-the-future.html
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20:38:52 <cpressey> <oerjan> but whether there actual examples, i don't know - but complexity theory seems to have a lot of trouble proving that things are not reducible to each other unless there is a clear O() separation
20:40:04 * oerjan adds some coolant to cpressey's head to prevent it exploding
20:41:59 <cpressey> if only we could universally quantify constructively over the space of all terminating algorithms
20:42:14 <cpressey> "there, you see, no reduction."
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20:49:20 <Imk0tter> that video either passed through the shit filter
20:52:20 <cpressey> Imk0tter: the video with the guy talking about how R is the language of the future? It looked fine to me, but to even get it to play I had to right-click and select "Watch on YouTube"
20:58:26 <Imk0tter> maybe my internet is being regulated and passed through a shit filter
20:58:35 <Imk0tter> cause almost every video i see these days looks fake
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21:51:17 <cpressey> soooo.... the regexp engine can't return groups captured.
21:51:46 <cpressey> I... will have to use... dear me, this will be interesting.
22:02:54 <cpressey> strsplit(gsub('^:(.*?)\\!(.*?)\\s+PRIVMSG\\s+(.*?)\\s+\\:(.*?)$', '\\1\u2603\\2\u2603\\3\u2603\\4', line, perl=TRUE), '\u2603', fixed=TRUE)
22:03:06 <cpressey> UNICODE SNOWMAN AS FIELD SEPERATOR
22:09:01 <cpressey> ack, then to index this thing you have to say: nick <- foo[[1]][1]; channel <- foo[[1]][3]; ...
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22:19:25 <cheater-> tell me a reason why you wouldn't be using the unicode snowman for the field separator
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22:22:18 <cheater-> sounds like he needs to put new batteries in his remote?
22:22:28 <cheater-> otherwise the garage door won't open
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22:28:22 <cpressey> (I've modelled its personality after a cat I met once)
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22:34:50 <cpressey> R-Type, catch sufficiently hello world
22:35:13 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-Type
22:38:42 <cpressey> just trying to get R-Type to exhibit its fourth behavior
22:39:33 * cpressey throws ball of string past R-Type
22:39:57 <cpressey> random sample, my foot. If R isn't good at that, what IS it good for?
22:42:25 <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-Type_Tactics_II:_Operation_Bitter_Chocolate
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23:03:19 <tswett> R-Type followed his own instruction.
23:03:24 <Vorpal> <cpressey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-Type_Tactics_II:_Operation_Bitter_Chocolate <-- what a silly name
23:03:42 <tswett> You know what? I've had enough of "it". From now on, I'm referring to all things as either "him" or "her".
23:03:57 <Vorpal> R-Type, why do you keep hissing?
23:04:07 <Vorpal> with that response time
23:04:54 <Vorpal> no CTCP VERSION reply from that bot
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23:05:31 <cpressey> yes Vorpal, I did not find it desirable to implement that function in my bot
23:05:44 <cpressey> my bot, written in R, the language of the future
23:06:10 <Vorpal> cpressey, R... Hm... Is that one of the crazily compact array ones?
23:06:29 <Vorpal> like J and APL and so on
23:06:39 <cpressey> errrr it's one of the "array ones" but it's not so crazily compact as APL, no
23:07:04 <Vorpal> R, J <-- I think there is a pattern in the names...
23:07:16 <Vorpal> APL is pretty short too
23:07:23 <Vorpal> there is K too isn't there?
23:07:24 <cpressey> are you refering to the fact that those names are both one letter long?
23:07:35 <Vorpal> cpressey, yes and isn't there an array one called K as well?
23:07:50 <cpressey> well there's one called C. I believe it supports arrays
23:08:27 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:08:42 <Vorpal> but really. R, J, K are all array processing languages. And have one letter names. There might be a pattern there. Should be investigated further.
23:08:55 <tswett> cpressey: ...good point.
23:09:56 <cpressey> tswett: Might as well just speak French, if you're going to do that, I think.
23:10:11 <cpressey> "Look! There he has three birds!"
23:10:33 <cpressey> Or rather "He there has three birds!"
23:11:12 <cpressey> K is rather insane. Maybe... naw.
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23:49:52 <Sgeo> tswett, so, Pharo 1.2.1 was just released
23:51:27 * Sgeo doesn't see alien support in the list of changes
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23:57:32 <Sgeo> Do they _test_ the non default themes? At all?
23:57:48 <Sgeo> (buttons are hard to read)
23:58:26 <tswett> It annoys me that there are global constants (variables?) that aren't classes.
23:58:32 <tswett> Transcript and Smalltalk, for example. Maybe others.
00:00:45 <Sgeo> Smalltalk at: #One put: 1.
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00:10:39 <Sgeo> Smalltalk globals keysAndValuesDo: [:key :value |
00:10:39 <Sgeo> (value class class = Metaclass) ifFalse: [
00:10:39 <Sgeo> Transcript cr.
00:10:39 <Sgeo> Transcript show: key]]
00:10:54 <Sgeo> May have some false positives
00:14:29 <tswett> In my image, there are 16.
00:15:12 <Sgeo> I seem to have many more than 16
00:15:26 <tswett> Some of them are traits.
00:15:29 <tswett> Which are like classes.
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00:16:10 <tswett> Optimist, Sensor, SystemOrganization, World, Display, ActiveEvent, TextConstants, Smalltalk, Processor, ScheduledControllers, Transcript, SourceFiles, ActiveHand, ActiveWorld, Undeclared, ImageImports.
00:16:43 <Sgeo> I don't have Optimist
00:16:52 <tswett> Optimist is strange. It's a True.
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00:35:15 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> ActiveWorld! <-- different one I suspect
00:35:54 <Vorpal> <tswett> Optimist is strange. It's a True. <-- Pessimist should be False then?
00:37:50 <tswett> It should be, but it isn't.
00:57:14 <Sgeo> So, what uses Optimist?
00:57:19 <Sgeo> Is it possible to determine?
01:10:14 <tswett> I don't know of any way to determine that. You could look through all of the code in the system and see if it uses Optimist.
01:10:43 <tswett> Or you could replace Optimist with an object that pretends to be true but logs all its accesses.
01:11:28 <Sgeo> tvvl: Smalltalk globals remove: #Smalltalk
01:11:47 <tswett> No worries, this bot is supposed to be abused.
01:11:50 <Sgeo> I'm sure I had something more creative in mind
01:11:53 <tswett> It's not *made* to be abused, but it's supposed to be. :P
01:12:13 <tswett> It looks like that expression is simply an error.
01:12:22 <tswett> The image is still working perfectly.
01:12:45 <tswett> I suggest "Smalltalk globals at: #Smalltalk put: nil".
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01:13:01 <tswett> I'll see what that does.
01:13:03 <tswett> tvvl: Smalltalk globals at: #Smalltalk put: nil
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01:13:28 <tswett> There. *Now* the image has crashed.
01:14:06 -!- tswettbot-boxed- has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:15:00 -!- tswettbot-boxed has joined.
01:15:01 <tswett> Feel free to repair the bot through IRC. :P
01:15:17 <tswett> You just need to fix a certain method.
01:16:10 <tswett> tvvl: (ZbasuDefaultHandler methodDictionary at: #bot:heard:) methodSourceString
01:16:22 <tswett> Oh, that's not how that works.
01:16:27 <tswett> I dismiss you, tswettbot.
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01:17:08 <tswett> tvvl: (ZbasuDefaultHandler methodDictionary at: #bot:heard:) getSource
01:17:27 <tswett> Of course it sends every line of that as a separate IRC command.
01:18:00 <tswett> Yep, that's the name of the project.
01:19:58 <tswett> tvvl: (ZbasuDefaultHandler methodDictionary at: #bot:heard:) getSource withBlanksCondensed
01:22:58 <tswett> tvvl: (ZbasuDefaultHandler methodDictionary at: #bot:heard:) getSource onlyLetters
01:22:58 <tswettbot-boxed-> bottheardtttTranscriptshowRCVDtcrtbeginsWithPINGifTruetsendMessagePONGtincludesSubStringIdismissyoutswettbotifTruetquitttvvlttfindStringttifFalsetsendMessagePRIVMSGesotericCompilerevaluatetallButFirsttsizetnotifyingnilloggedfalseasString
01:24:59 <tswett> tvvl: (ZbasuDefaultHandler methodDictionary at: #bot:heard:) getSource select: [:x | x ~= Character cr and: [x ~= Character lf]]
01:25:00 <tswettbot-boxed-> bot: t1 heard: t2 | t3 t4 |Transcript show: 'RCVD: ' , t2; cr.(t2 beginsWith: 'PING')ifTrue: [t1 sendMessage: 'PONG'].(t2 includesSubString: 'I dismiss you, tswettbot')ifTrue: [t1 quit].t3 := 'tvvl: '.t4 := t2 findString: t3.t4 = 0ifFalse: [t1 sendMessage: 'PRIVMSG #esoteric :' , (Compilerevaluate: (t2 allButFirst: t3 size + t4 - 1)notifying: nillogged: false) asString]
01:27:35 <tswett> tvvl: (ZbasuDefaultHandler methodDictionary at: #bot:heard:) getSource select: [:x | ({Character cr. Character lf. Character tab} includes: x) not]
01:27:35 <tswettbot-boxed-> bot: t1 heard: t2 | t3 t4 |Transcript show: 'RCVD: ' , t2; cr.(t2 beginsWith: 'PING')ifTrue: [t1 sendMessage: 'PONG'].(t2 includesSubString: 'I dismiss you, tswettbot')ifTrue: [t1 quit].t3 := 'tvvl: '.t4 := t2 findString: t3.t4 = 0ifFalse: [t1 sendMessage: 'PRIVMSG #esoteric :' , (Compilerevaluate: (t2 allButFirst: t3 size + t4 - 1)notifying: nillogged: false) asString]
01:27:44 <tswett> There, there's your source code. :P
01:28:26 <tswett> Oh, interesting. All the argument names are absent.
01:29:13 <tswett> All the argument names in the entire image. And there are no comments.
01:29:24 <tswett> I'm guessing that's supposed to happen when the sources file can't be found.
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02:43:25 <oklopol> augur: you always join but never leave, how is that possible
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02:51:14 <oklopol> augur: i've just never noticed you leave
02:51:24 <augur> you're not paying attention then!
02:51:26 <oklopol> yay complexity theory has been discussed here
02:51:51 <oklopol> oh i thought you had done some sorta magix
02:52:37 <oklopol> if there are sparse NP-complete sets with respect to many-to-one reductions, then P=NP, same for sparse coNP-complete sets
02:53:22 <oklopol> sparse = for some polynomial p there are at most p(n) words of length n in the language
02:54:56 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: even worse, if there's unary languages that are NP-complete, P=NP
02:55:16 <oklopol> Zwaarddijk: i'm actually just now writing the proof of that
02:56:13 <oklopol> easy one: if there's a tally set (subset of 1^*) that's NP-complete, then P=NP: take an SAT instance, and one var at a time branch to both the true and the false case, now just note the set of formulas you get never gets exponential because you can prune out two formulas if they have the same image in the tally set
02:56:25 <oklopol> yes i was writing it for your pleasure
02:56:36 <oklopol> but that was kinda simplified
02:56:43 <oklopol> i'll be happy to get into the details ofc
02:57:56 <oklopol> you need an SAT encoding where setting a value to true or false doesn't increase its length
02:58:22 <oklopol> then let p be a polynomial such that the reduction from SAT to the tally set takes time at most p
02:59:05 <oklopol> and note that if the SAT instance has size n, then the images of all formulas you get when branching are at most size p(n)
02:59:53 <oklopol> and in fact there are at most p(n) formulas you need to keep track of, because for all formulas, you can remove them if they don't have an image in 1^*, and if they do have an image in 1^*, it's at most length p(n), and for each length, you store just one formula
03:00:29 <oklopol> that should be the key points
03:01:00 <oklopol> kind of a random list of facts
03:01:45 <Zwaarddijk> I was thinking, btw, how would a language like
03:02:19 <Zwaarddijk> 1^(R(x,y), x and y being any integer, and R() being the Ramsey numbers
03:02:45 <Zwaarddijk> R(x,y) is very difficult to compute, but is that even relevant to the language itself?
03:03:33 <oklopol> i'm sure no one knows a fast algorithm for that because R(5,5) is open
03:03:47 <Zwaarddijk> does this mean that language is difficult
03:03:50 <augur> oklopol: ever played with agda?
03:04:53 <oklopol> Zwaarddijk: even though tally sets cannot be NP-complete, they can be exponential time or even uncomputable
03:05:16 <oklopol> there was something about NP-hardness
03:05:29 <oklopol> oh well we certainly know they can be uncomputable
03:05:52 <Zwaarddijk> well, the NP-completeness is unknown, that was my point
03:06:18 <Zwaarddijk> does P=NP => NP-complete tally sets, or is it just NP-complete tally sets => P=NP?
03:06:35 <oklopol> if P=NP, then {1} is MP-complete
03:07:25 <oklopol> but my ct books says tally sets cannot be even bounded truth table hard for NP
03:07:43 <oklopol> i guess that's essentially the same thing
03:08:08 <Zwaarddijk> when I read the thing about tally sets first
03:08:15 <Zwaarddijk> I figured that's pretty much proof that P!=NP
03:08:46 <Zwaarddijk> or maybe at least the closest we have?
03:09:04 <oklopol> erm the reason i gave the proof is that it's a simple little thingie
03:09:25 <oklopol> sparse NP-complete => P=NP is much more interesting
03:10:29 <oklopol> and i don't understand it. i have understood the details separately, once upon a time, but i'm not sure i ever really got what the idea was
03:11:03 <oklopol> sparse coNP-complete => P=NP is essentially the same as that tally set proof, but i don't recall how it goes, similar pruning thing
03:11:17 <augur> oklopol: you should
03:12:08 <oklopol> but umm, i should go to work
03:12:38 <Zwaarddijk> I have recently realized I should learn javascript :|
03:18:36 <Zwaarddijk> yes, it is a terrible thing to realize
03:23:46 <Gregor> http://sss.cs.purdue.edu/projects/dynjs/javascript_the_evil_parts.png <-- recommended book to learn from
03:29:46 <augur> oklopol: you do math, right?
03:30:41 <Gregor> augur: I don't do math :P
03:30:51 <augur> im just saying hi to you
03:31:01 <Gregor> No, you're saying "Gregor!" to me.
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03:31:52 <augur> Gregor: yes, thats a way of saying hi
03:31:56 <augur> oklopol: well, you can do math in agda!
03:32:04 <augur> for instance, im doing abstract algebra right now!
03:32:11 <Gregor> You can do math in JavaScript too X-P
03:32:16 <augur> Gregor: i mean proofs
03:32:17 <oklopol> what's abstract algebra, is it universal algebra?
03:32:27 <Gregor> augur: And I mean to trollolol :P
03:32:36 <augur> oklopol: eh. in this case its just some graph-theoretic stuff i guess?
03:33:19 <oklopol> must be pretty damn abstract if you don't know what it is
03:34:16 <oklopol> according to wp, abstract algebra is the same as universal algebra
03:34:24 <Gregor> augur: I didn't get libc.so *sobblecopter*
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03:35:28 <Gregor> augur: Why even say "hi" if I can't then relate personal tragedy :P
03:35:30 <oklopol> i imagine doing math in agda would be similar to programming in brainfuck, sure it can be fun but you'll be proving 1+1=2.
03:37:29 <augur> currently im proving that any graph order built from Unit and disjunctive concatenation will be a linear order
03:37:42 <oklopol> disjunctive concatenation?
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03:38:57 <augur> concatenation with disjoint union of the underlying sets
03:39:20 <oklopol> and how do you "concatenate" graphs
03:39:37 <augur> in this case, its roughly like so
03:41:38 <augur> (X, arrX) ++ (Y, arrY) = (X + Y, \(z,z') -> if z z' <- X then arrX z z' else if z <- X & z' <- Y then true else if z <- Y & z' <- X then false else if z z' <- Y then arrY z z')
03:41:58 <augur> plus the relevant isomorphism to make the new relation be of type (X + Y) x (X + Y) -> Bool
03:42:12 <oklopol> so connect vertices of X to those of Y
03:42:27 <augur> right, the X's point to the Y's
03:42:39 <oklopol> well obviously that's a total order
03:42:48 <augur> the X's dont point to themselves
03:42:52 <augur> total orders are reflexive
03:42:58 <augur> linear orders are irreflexive
03:43:04 <augur> i mean, it COULD be total
03:43:25 <augur> depending on whether you state from (1, const True) or (1, const False)
03:43:34 <augur> the former is a total order, the latter is a linear order
03:43:40 <oklopol> well okay linear, point is that's obvious, easier than 1+1=2
03:43:58 <augur> perhaps! depends on how you define 1, 2, and + :)
03:44:11 <augur> but its neat cause ive got a _proof_
03:44:25 <augur> im still constructing the proof that (1, const False) is a linear order
03:44:30 <oklopol> it's NEAT, but it's not math
03:44:43 <oklopol> well it's math but it's kidss math
03:45:35 <augur> but you can do growed up math too!
03:45:39 <augur> im just not doing that kind of math
03:45:45 <augur> because its not relevant to my work
03:45:48 <oklopol> doing math is all about the basic idea, formal proof is a lot of fun, but it's not really why i'm into math
03:46:21 <oklopol> i'm on a course about formal proving
03:46:57 <oklopol> hopefully i'll be able to prove that same theorem in a month or so
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08:34:44 <fizzie> Newsgroups: sci.math,comp.theory,sci.logic,comp.lang.c,alt.religion.christianity
08:34:44 <fizzie> Subject: Alpha and Omega R-Language Computer Code|Robot Jesus|Sermon on the Mount|
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08:57:33 <mtve> quite esoteric - http://arxiv.org/abs/1104.0924v1
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09:30:16 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Newsgroups: sci.math,comp.theory,sci.logic,comp.lang.c,alt.religion.christianity <-- that's a joke, right?
09:31:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, or was that not a To list for one message?
09:31:30 <fizzie> There's no "To:" header in postings; but it was a Newsgroups: header for one (crossposted) message, yes.
09:31:59 <fizzie> I mean, it does have both "computer code" and "robot jesus" in the subject, why not.
09:32:57 <fizzie> The contents didn't really make sense, though: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/msg/5e1c4335efdc2ecf
09:42:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, looks like program code
09:42:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, probably in R as it said in the subject
09:43:01 <fizzie> The syntax looks like R, yes.
09:43:09 <fizzie> Well, except those quotation bits.
09:43:11 <Vorpal> I don't know R however.
09:43:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, could be some sort of comment? I don't know
09:43:41 <fizzie> I'm not an R expert either, but I doubt "be comforted by the words which I give unto" is valid syntax.
09:44:02 <Vorpal> it could be doing the intercal way. Invalid syntax = comment
09:44:15 <fizzie> R comments are from # to end-of-line.
09:46:07 <fizzie> The same author posted a P=NP "proof" the other day, too.
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11:47:10 <k0tk0t> ,[->+>+<<]>>[<<+>>-]>+>>++++++[<<[>++<-]>[<+++++>-]>-]<<[->+>+<<]>>[<<+>>-]>>+<<<<[>>>>>>>>>>>[-]+[<<<<<<<<<<<<<[->>>>>>>>+<<<<<<<<]>>>[->>>>>>+<<<<<<]<[->+>+<<]>>[<<+>>-]>>>>[>[-<->>>+<]<<]<[>]>[-<<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>>]>[-]>>>+<[-<<<<<<<<->>>>>>>>]<<<<<<<<[[-]>>>>>>>>>->-<<<<<<<<<<]<[->+>+<<]>>[<<+>>-]>>>>>>>>>]<[->>+>+<<<]++++++[->>++++++++<<]>>.[-]>[-<<<<<<<<<<<<[-]<[->+>+<<]>>[<<+>>-]<[->>>>>>>>>>>>>+<<<<<<<<<<<<<]>>>>>>>>>>>>]>[
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11:58:21 <k0tk0t> anyone familiar with brainfuck?
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12:02:49 <Vorpal> <k0tk0t> anyone familiar with brainfuck? <-- yes, to some degree
12:04:09 <Vorpal> hm, I think bf is one of the few languages where output of a good optimising compiler might be easier to follow than the original source code for most programs.
12:04:46 <Vorpal> (of course it is probably possible to obfuscate code in many languages to get that effect there too)
12:06:46 <Vorpal> well, probably the same goes for some other easily compileable tarpits
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12:32:10 <Ilari> Hah. I seemingly got signed up to one mailing list in "opt-out" fashion (quite understandable given the situation).
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12:32:38 <Vorpal> Ilari, what mailing list heh?
12:33:27 <Ilari> Well, basically one mailing list was shut down and new one created to continue (apparently mailman can't rename mailing lists).
12:33:46 <Vorpal> well that makes sense then
12:33:50 <Ilari> And the admins copied the subscriber lists.
12:33:54 <Vorpal> (well, mailmail doesn't)
12:34:33 <Ilari> All data wasn't copied. The password changed for instance.
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14:36:25 <cpressey> R-Type! You survived the night!
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14:54:48 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm, why did you make the bot act like that? Is it a reference I'm missing or something?
15:01:55 <cpressey> Vorpal: Well: I wanted to write a bot in R, just because R is a horrible language to do such a thing in. I named it 'R-Type' because 'rbot' was taken, 'R-bot' is boring, and R-Type was a significant game in the history of video games (not a huge favorite of mine, but I can appreciate it.) Since the point was just to write a bot in R, I didn't care what it actually did. So I modelled its personality after a cat I met o
15:02:33 <Vorpal> cpressey, I think that got cut off
15:02:39 <Vorpal> "So I modelled its personality after a cat I met o"
15:02:49 <cpressey> So I modelled its personality after a cat I met once.
15:03:03 <Vorpal> I guess a rather annoying cat...
15:04:08 <cpressey> It was a stray that was rescued. It was also a longhair.
15:04:46 <cpressey> Longhair + living on the streets = permanent knots in fur = quite painful, I imagine = not the happiest individual.
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15:06:06 <cpressey> Oh, I should post its source code somewhere so you can bask in the glory
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15:08:00 <Vorpal> cpressey, I don't know R though
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15:09:47 <cpressey> Vorpal: you don't have to know it to appreciate how BEAUTIFUL it is.
15:10:02 <cpressey> See the beauty! http://pastie.org/1768075
15:10:43 <cpressey> The command line to run it, alone, is worth it.
15:11:00 <Gregor> "irc.irc.irc" is the greatest hostname ever.
15:11:28 <Vorpal> cpressey, if you want to avoid the erlang shell you can get pretty silly command lines there too
15:12:23 <Phantom_Hoover> "Every time I hear that XKCD isn't funny anymore I get slightly pissed off. It's always been hit and miss but the hits so outweigh the misses that it's my favourite on line comic (with the possible exception of Doonesbury)." ← a decent precis of why I left RationalWiki.
15:13:05 <Phantom_Hoover> "I am continually impressed/annoyed that we spent zillions of edits and hundreds of words making a point in favour of rationalism, then XKCD kicks our arses saying the same thing in four panels with a couple of matchstick men."
15:14:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm I'd say xkcd is sometimes good, though rather rarely nowdays. And even back in the "good old days" it wasn't always good.
15:15:47 <Phantom_Hoover> the master xkcd will rise from the sunken city of frwgll
15:15:51 <cpressey> I know as much about xkcd as I want to -- more, actually. I should not tempt fate. Or #esoteric.
15:16:50 <Vorpal> cpressey, I'm not sure if you meant you didn't know what xkcd was above or not. It is however a webcomic.
15:17:11 <oklopol> http://www.xkcd.com/879/ <<< i like this one
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15:18:05 <oklopol> http://www.xkcd.com/881/ <<< and could someone explain this to me
15:18:12 <cpressey> Vorpal: Depending on who you ask, it is THE webcomic.
15:18:18 <oklopol> is the joke that they have a weird way of hugging
15:20:20 <oklopol> but i suppose it's still the simpsons of webcomics
15:21:28 <oklopol> err... sure? now can you explain 881 to me
15:22:32 <Phantom_Hoover> It's about LOOK AT ME I CAN WRITE CRINGEWORTHILY AWFUL "EMOTIONAL" COMICS WITH SCIENCE SHOEHORNED IN I AM NERD HUMOUR
15:22:55 <cpressey> I am fascinatingly tempted to actually look at it.
15:23:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Also *anyone* who thinks probability is worth doing for practical applications should be shot.
15:23:28 <oklopol> are you sure there isn't some sort of punchline?
15:23:43 <oklopol> what are the numbers in the table
15:23:51 <Phantom_Hoover> The impression I get is that the actual *mathematics* requires some kind of degree.
15:24:10 <oklopol> like, that many survive 5/10 years of X
15:25:03 <oklopol> and i wonder if the way they hug is relevant
15:25:57 <oklopol> i think i just don't get it
15:26:05 <cpressey> Perhaps if I prepare myself mentally and emotionally beforehand sufficiently, I can look at it.
15:26:19 <oklopol> cpressey: i would appreciate that
15:26:36 <cpressey> I mean, I have seen xkcd's involuntarily on peoples' shirts and hanging in their cubes, and it didn't damage me *too* much.
15:26:40 <oklopol> fun little problem: find a 5-regular planar graph, where 5-regular = every vertex has degree 5
15:26:43 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, I think you're assuming there's an actual joke somewhere under the mawkish sentimentalism, and are combing through it.
15:28:00 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: You are correct in that.
15:28:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, unless you have the love for your fellow humans of Charlie Brooker.
15:28:56 <cpressey> I don't know who that is and the extra information is not helping me recover.
15:29:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Charlie Brooker is an infamously misanthropic reviewer of things.
15:29:21 <oklopol> i suppose this is the right time to tell cpressey that santa isn't real
15:29:28 <cpressey> OK, well: oklopol, if you want my opinion: it wasn't intended to be funny.
15:29:47 <cpressey> It was intended to be Hallmark-y.
15:30:02 <cpressey> For lack of a better adjective.
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15:30:54 <cpressey> "mawkish sentamentalism", I suppose that's a good way to put it too
15:33:05 <cpressey> oklopol: this was all a PLOT by you, to get me to read an xkcd, WASN'T IT
15:33:29 <cpressey> cleverly FEIGNING non-understanding of the fail
15:33:51 <cpressey> hm, or can you actually call that fail? because i'm sure it was totally what was intended
15:34:13 <oklopol> i wouldn't know, I DON'T GET IT
15:34:19 <cpressey> oklopol: THERE IS NOTHING TO GET
15:34:58 <cpressey> oklopol: Are you familiar with a pre-web comic strip called Fred Bassett?
15:35:31 <cpressey> Sometimes, there is nothing to get.
15:35:33 <oklopol> no, except if it's pre-web i might know it in finnish
15:36:24 <cpressey> (the internet is amazing sometimes)
15:37:16 <oklopol> oh yeah i've seen those comics
15:37:40 <cpressey> "Some strips are merely a surreal or whimsical description of a moment of life as seen from a dog's point of view. As very British cartoon strips, they break the normal strip rules by sometimes not having a traditional ending, a punchline or even a distinct purpose, distinguishing them from the more direct, American-style Garfield or Peanuts strips."
15:39:47 <oklopol> maybe i'll try to solve it tomorrow
15:40:02 <oklopol> koiraskoira sounds really silly
15:40:22 <cpressey> I mean, I always thought it must be hard being a comic strip writer, you have to come up with a new funny thing for every day. But! Not if you aren't actually funny every day.
15:41:05 <oklopol> well you can always just make a play on words
15:41:27 <oklopol> never funny, but good enough for a newspaper comic strip.
15:42:14 <cpressey> I have this particular strip hanging in my cube: http://www.glyphjockey.com/uploaded_images/Uncanny_Old_Gags_1-772109.jpg
15:42:34 <cpressey> It's revenge against those who see fit to hang xkcds where others can see them.
15:43:15 <oklopol> i.... don't get that one either
15:43:23 <oklopol> have i become even stupider
15:45:51 <oklopol> is the points that bad things can happen even though no actual failing is involved, proper walking can cause footprints in the wrong place, and a nice throw can destroy a painting
15:46:41 <oklopol> oh the first guy is in the picture
15:46:49 <cpressey> I believe the point was "I can take panels from seperate Nancy strips and put them together into something that can be read, but does not make sense as we understand it"
15:46:54 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, have you considered that sometimes there is, in fact, no elaborately hidden punchline, and that the reason you cannot find one is not that you lack a sense of humour?
15:47:07 <Phantom_Hoover> This would perhaps be justified were you Vorpal, but you are not.
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15:47:42 <cpressey> The objective of dada is to freeze the brain until the dressmakers' assistants arrive.
15:48:49 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, you should say to everyone "really, you don't get it? It's obvious!"
15:49:03 <oklopol> yeah no my approach didn't work
15:49:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not every comic strip has a punchline.
15:49:23 <Vorpal> depends a bit on which webcomic though
15:49:26 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: In my younger days...
15:50:01 <oklopol> has the author said there's no solution?
15:50:41 <cpressey> oklopol's use of the words "solve" and "solution" in regard to comic strips disturbs me somewhat.
15:50:51 <Phantom_Hoover> And Vorpal performs quite possibly the most amazing feat of oblivious demonstration the world has ever seen!
15:51:49 <oklopol> cpressey: if you directly see why a comic is funny, you didn't learn anything.
15:51:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, of course, there are cases where either the author of the webcomic or the reader of it have different types of humour. That would give a similar end result.
15:52:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't think Vorpal even reads what other people say beyond the most cursory examination.
15:52:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I read the previous three lines + the highlight one
15:52:49 <cpressey> oklopol: that is true, although I am not always seeking to learn new things when I read a comic strip.
15:52:57 <Vorpal> (the previous ones to the highlight that is)
15:53:09 <Phantom_Hoover> This is particularly apparent whenever any form of subtlety is applied.
15:53:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but come on... comics like freefall doesn't use a punch line in *every* strip.
15:53:26 <cpressey> Vorpal, are you aware that we don't know what lines your IRC client highlights?
15:53:30 <oklopol> cpressey: well to be honest the only reason i read comics is to take a break from thinking.
15:53:40 <Vorpal> cpressey, "<Phantom_Hoover> This would perhaps be justified were you Vorpal, but you are not." had my nick in it
15:53:48 <Vorpal> pretty obvious it would highlight me
15:53:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Sarcasm being one thing he is utterly unable to detect or penetrate.
15:55:41 <cpressey> Anyway, xkcd pegged why R is the language of the future. It tells you that you're going to DIE
15:55:46 <oklopol> which year is this again? i have some trouble with time
15:56:24 <cpressey> oklopol: the sappy one with the statistics and the hugging, yes
15:56:39 <oklopol> well that's what i initially assumed, but the details don't quite seem to fit
15:56:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Ooh, Edinburgh apparently has in international science festival.
15:56:52 <Vorpal> oklopol, working out well. Not there today, the lab was cancelled. Lab was cancelled after the electricity system failed in that room. They were going to replace it today.
15:57:14 <oklopol> real life applications just told the reader it's about his disease
15:57:34 <Vorpal> oklopol, and how is it for you?
15:57:52 <cpressey> oh, oklopol didn't get the sappy part? ok, that was a misunderstanding on my part
15:57:53 <oklopol> Vorpal: trying to get my first publication this week
15:58:13 <oklopol> erm, i mean write my first article which i will then try to get published
15:58:16 <Vorpal> oklopol, ah. Good luck!
15:58:31 <cpressey> yes, the stick figure hates statistics because statistics are telling him that his friend/lover/co-stick-figure is gonna DIE
15:59:15 <Vorpal> hm, everyone will die sooner or later
15:59:20 <oklopol> yeah i get it now, i just didn't get what he meant by statistics having real life applications, but the applications were that they could predict shit and now that he's dying bleh
16:00:50 <Phantom_Hoover> There appears to be something about how the Vatican ascertains whether a miracle has occurred.
16:00:59 <Vorpal> oklopol, oh, it was a lab in a course about real time systems. Sadly this is "modern" compsci. Meaning it is more like computer programming/computer engineering often...
16:01:17 <oklopol> a chick bleeding out her vag ain't no miracle
16:02:05 <oklopol> i took this "theoretical" course on real-time systems and i can guarantee you that sucked more than yours ever could
16:02:24 <Phantom_Hoover> First she complained about the idea of firing nuclear waste into space because it would become our nuclear dumping ground.
16:02:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Y'know, because it's so easy to spoil the pristine landscape of space.
16:03:10 <oklopol> isn't the sun already slightly radioactive
16:03:16 <Vorpal> oklopol, well, we were going to program targeting vxworks. However, for some reasons booting more than a handful of the computers in that room made the fuse blow yesterday.
16:03:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Then, when someone mentioned that the universe was expanding, she said "if the universe is expanding what is it expanding into YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN THAT""
16:03:32 <oklopol> but i suppose it's nothing compared to whatever our nuclear plants produce
16:03:59 <Phantom_Hoover> So I was like "actually I can—" "NO YOU CAN'T YOU'RE JUST PRETENDING"
16:04:10 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I think I'm in love
16:05:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Then I gave up because I previously had a long and bitter dispute with her over whether liquids could have pressure and you can't waste effort on stupidity of that magnitude.
16:05:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, dumping nuclear waste in space would be rather expensive. Unless we build a space elevator (which would ALSO be expensive, though less so in the long run)...
16:05:43 <cpressey> whether... liquids can have... pressure... with a chemistry teacher
16:06:07 <cpressey> i mean, the other things, i can say, well, space, that's just not her domain
16:06:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, well, the big problem with space dumping is that if the rocket explodes (not exactly a rare occurrence) you irradiate half of Europe rather than just the area around your train.
16:06:41 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, in fairness, she confused pressure with compressibilit— wait, I'm not giving her any quarter, that's just as bad.
16:06:45 <oklopol> well you can just slingshot the stuff into space
16:06:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that too. But even if that was solved, doing it by rockets would be far too expensive.
16:07:15 <oklopol> didn't the buld a rocket with a 20000 budget somewhere
16:07:34 <Vorpal> oklopol, 20000 of what?
16:07:46 <cpressey> some kind of solar-powered magnetic rail
16:08:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, they're all, like, within 1.5 times each other.
16:08:42 <Vorpal> oklopol, I was referring to that 20000 SEK is a lot less than 20000 USD for example. :P
16:08:52 <oklopol> well right, but it's SMALLER
16:09:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I believe 1 USD is about 8 SEK or such
16:09:01 <oklopol> but i suppose you got that already
16:09:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit where's pikhq I came up with the best Japanese joke.
16:09:05 <Vorpal> haven't checked in a while
16:09:14 <oklopol> i mean 20000 is ASTRONOMICALLY LESS than what rockets usually cost
16:09:25 <oklopol> who cares how many astronomers smaller it is
16:09:46 <Vorpal> oklopol, any idea about how much payload it could lift? And to what orbit?
16:10:07 <oklopol> oh i don't know, and i'm not even sure this story is true
16:10:30 <oklopol> that i doubt there's an intrinsic reason for rockets to cost a lot
16:10:50 <oklopol> rockets that just need to escape gravity
16:10:55 <cpressey> well, as I see it, it's the fuel that's expensive. thus: some kind of solar-powered magnetic railgun
16:11:08 <cpressey> It would probably have to be a few kilometers long, though
16:11:08 <Vorpal> one issue with rockets is that they need to haul the fuel they need to power themselves.
16:11:18 <Vorpal> which makes them heavier, needing more fuel
16:11:30 <cpressey> How long is the Forth Bridge again?
16:11:31 <oklopol> as for fuel, they're starting those daily flights to what was it 120km, and they use less fuel than a flight by jet from new york to X
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16:11:44 <oklopol> again, completely unconfirmed random data
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16:12:09 <Phantom_Hoover> OH WAIT VORPAL IS HERE NO I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT SCOTLAND I AM WELSH
16:12:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hrrm, I think I need to check logs on where you come from :P
16:12:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I AM TOTALLY NOT FROM THE CITY RIGHT NEXT TO THE FORTH BRIDGES
16:13:39 <Vorpal> that explains why I had no memory of you being from Wales when you claimed that recently. So indeed, you fooled me a for a while there.
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16:14:19 <Phantom_Hoover> (For the rail bridge; the road bridge is longer IIRC.)
16:15:50 <cpressey> I haven't worked it out -- such a railgun might have to be really, really long. Longer than the Forth bridge, was I guess what I was thinking, and how much does the Forth bridge cost to maintain annually? (rhetorical)
16:16:12 <cpressey> And it could only launch relatively light things
16:16:24 <cpressey> And I don't know that it could get them further than orbit
16:16:25 <Phantom_Hoover> "A billboard which featured a depressed goth and the slogan 'Cheer up Goth. Have an Irn Bru.' was also criticised for inciting bullying." — the ASA is basically the funniest thing ever.
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16:16:35 <cpressey> But once in orbit, they could use rockets very very effectively
16:16:41 <Phantom_Hoover> (It's the UK body to which easily-offended people complain.)
16:16:58 <Vorpal> cpressey, I'm not sure you would get the same maintenance cost for a railgun and a bridge though.
16:17:07 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: yeah yeah har har har
16:17:41 <cpressey> Vorpal: no, but, same order of magnitude, i was guessing
16:17:54 <Vorpal> hm, I'm not qualified to answer that
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16:18:12 <cpressey> actually, you have to make damn sure the rail is nice and ... rail-y, you really wouldn't want your nuclear waste derailing at the end
16:18:46 <cpressey> although, better the Gobi desert (or whereever) than all of Europe, as I think PH mentioned
16:18:55 <Vorpal> quite. Hm how would it work? Would it be straight or would it curve upward at the end?
16:19:19 <cpressey> If it was straight, it would have to be REALLY long
16:19:43 <Vorpal> cpressey, if it had to go at an angle upwards I suspect it would need rather more complex supports (unless you found a suitable mountain side to use), which would probably drive up the price.
16:19:47 <cpressey> If it curves upward... that seems like it would be harder to do
16:20:19 <cpressey> And computing the speed necessary for the mass and the angle, to get it into orbit, and not have it fall back... well, we have computers.
16:20:40 <Vorpal> yeah I don't think that is the largest issue
16:21:08 <cpressey> and once it's outside the atmosphere, that's when you start the rockets. they don't need much fuel because you're outside of the drag and much of the gravity.
16:21:43 <cpressey> yeah, so let's build this sucker
16:21:48 <Vorpal> when I said rockets were expensive, I meant from the surface of the earth.
16:22:32 <cpressey> I think the name 'Irn Bru' is inherently bullying.
16:23:06 <Vorpal> cpressey, hm does it need to get into an east/west-wards orbit or could you launch it straight south? In the latter case you could build it pointing along the Atlantic. Very few inhabited islands there. Very few islands even.
16:23:31 <Vorpal> would be good in case of accidents.
16:23:54 <Vorpal> less risk of damage in case it doesn't reach orbit
16:24:23 <cpressey> I don't know. I don't see why not
16:26:08 <Vorpal> I seem to remember there is some complication with getting into polar orbits. Hm...
16:27:55 <cpressey> Possibly, but the wp article doesn't suggest anything really difficult
16:28:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Also you have to correct for the earth's rotation as well.
16:29:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually I think the second point is the main one, particularly as rockets tend to be launched from fairly low latitudes.
16:30:29 <cpressey> well, if the destination is orbit, the railgun approach gives you very limited options, no matter which way it's pointing
16:33:42 <cpressey> I like the wheels idea. Especially putting a block behind every wheel so the thing doesn't move (much) when you fire it. Like on artillery.
16:34:57 <cpressey> Uh, whatever's most conventient, if the ultimate purpose is to get spent nuclear fuel into the sun or whatever
16:35:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not sure. I was thinking polar one because if you place it in, say, UK, then you can fire pretty much across the Atlantic. Which is very sparsely inhabited. Which is a bonus in case of accidents
16:36:09 <Vorpal> well, actually I guess along the Antarctic
16:36:44 <oklopol> what's the fuel consumption difference between to orbit vs shot into space?
16:36:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, isn't that the wrong direction too? With regards to Earth's spin...
16:37:03 <oklopol> or is it relative depending on what shooting means
16:37:29 <oklopol> i would've thought once you get to orbit, it's relatively easy to get out completely, but actually i suppose the orbits are rather closed compared to earth's radius
16:38:00 <cpressey> a really elliptical orbit might be good then -- you could get out of it at the far point
16:38:22 <oklopol> oh we were still talking about completely escaping
16:38:31 <Vorpal> cpressey, once you get far enough I suggest ITN for low energy transfer towards the sun.
16:38:40 <oklopol> i don't see why just leaving that shit on the orbit would be all that dangerous
16:39:05 <Vorpal> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interplanetary_Transport_Network)
16:39:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so would it be better to go to orbit and then break away rather than break away directly?
16:39:50 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: so does your mom but i still keep doing her
16:40:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, because thrusting from orbit doesn't have the complications that it does on a planet.
16:40:21 <oklopol> i'll be dead by the time they come down so what do i care
16:40:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, right.
16:40:24 <Phantom_Hoover> (I know what oko is going to say, so he needn't bother.)
16:41:09 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: erm what, thrusting your mom from orbit doesn't have the complications the it does on a planet?
16:41:49 <oklopol> maybe in orbit, now it doesn't quite look like the correct kind of thrusting
16:42:40 <oklopol> the point of the mom joke was just to attract attention to the classical philosophical problem of i don't give a shit what happens after i die
16:43:04 <oklopol> now that it's obscure not-really-a-joke explanation day
16:44:54 <oklopol> but having sex weightless is one of the fundamental experiences in life
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17:11:08 <cpressey> <cpressey> Vorpal: Well: I wanted to write a bot in R, just because R is a horrible language to do such a thing in. I named it 'R-Type' because 'rbot' was taken, 'R-bot' is boring, and R-Type was a significant game in the history of video games (not a huge favorite of mine, but I can appreciate it.) Since the point was just to write a bot in R, I didn't care what it actually did. So...
17:11:15 <cpressey> So I modelled its personality after a cat I met once.
17:11:46 <oklopol> R-Type is a computer robot
17:12:11 <oklopol> R-Type is a computer robot
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17:15:46 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think so. That's the 3D wireframe one for the 8-bits, isn't it?
17:17:42 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.03: 64k+/32 to Australia, 64k to China, 256 to Hong Kong, 1024+256 to Indonesia, 1k+256+/32 to India, 64k+8k+1k to Japan, 2k to South Korea, 1k to Nepal, 256 to Philipphines, 256+/32 to Singapore, 4k to Thailand, 256k+64k+8k to Taiwan.
17:19:07 <Ilari> Depletion estimate: Thursday 14th April.
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17:41:44 <Vorpal> Ilari, any idea how accurate that estimate is?
17:43:09 <Ilari> No idea. These processes are highly discrete and distributions behave badly. Fourth quadrant stuff for sure.
17:45:36 <Ilari> Basically, the APNIC pool is so depleted that one huge allocation could take most of it and then the rest of the allocations on that day would finish it off.
17:47:50 <Ilari> It could be tomorrow, we might make next week without depletion, nobody outside APNIC really knows.
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18:23:56 <oerjan> <cpressey> Longhair + living on the streets = permanent knots in fur = quite painful, I imagine = not the happiest individual.
18:24:16 <oerjan> um can't they cut it off...
18:27:56 <oerjan> <oklopol> like, that many survive 5/10 years of X
18:28:03 <oerjan> that was my guess when i read it...
18:28:35 <oerjan> randall munroe _has_ some disease in the family
18:29:29 <cpressey> oerjan: i believe they were trying to do that, at the time (this was years ago), but something about the knots being close to the skin made it difficult to shave
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18:30:26 <cpressey> The cat whose personality R-Type's is modelled after.
18:30:45 <oerjan> vietnamese rolling furball
18:33:12 <oerjan> <cpressey> I mean, I have seen xkcd's involuntarily on peoples' shirts and hanging in their cubes, and it didn't damage me *too* much.
18:33:24 <oerjan> those _would_ tend to be the less damaging ones, one would think
18:33:59 <oerjan> except maybe someone probably has one of the worst ones just for the hell of it...
18:34:27 <oklopol> he would have to constantly explain it
18:34:58 <oerjan> well i mean like that infamous genitals one...
18:35:11 <oklopol> i don't think a comic can be stupid enough that... erm which one is that?
18:36:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't think too hard about the joke in that one either.
18:38:08 * oklopol tries not to think about it
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18:39:08 <oerjan> <oklopol> fun little problem: find a 5-regular planar graph, where 5-regular = every vertex has degree 5
18:39:50 <elliott> 06:58:51: <oerjan> <elliott> (I am pretty sure Eliezer Yudkowsky once said "a".)
18:39:51 <elliott> 06:59:27: <oerjan> it would be rather impressive if somehow he has carefully avoided a particular common word for years without being detected.
18:40:02 <elliott> maybe "Eliezer Yudkowsky" is an anagram...
18:40:19 <oklopol> oerjan: that was mister x's solution, he said he tried x-hedron and it didn't work so he tried z-hedron and it did
18:40:57 <oklopol> but you don't know what an icosahedron is (i sure as hell don't) to be able to come up with that
18:41:00 <oklopol> if you think about a 3d ball
18:41:15 <oklopol> to come up with *a* solution
18:41:29 <oerjan> you mean there's anything simpler than an icosahedron?
18:41:33 <elliott> 14:57:31: <tswett> elliott: but really, is PerlNomic better than another nomic we could come up with?
18:41:54 <elliott> tswett: Is skiing better than Chess?
18:41:59 <oklopol> i have two constructions that give 12 + 4k vertices
18:42:01 <oerjan> 12 vertices (it's dual to dodecahedron)
18:42:23 <oerjan> then your k=0 may be that
18:42:37 <oklopol> one of them gives some hedron as the 12 case, i don't know about the other one
18:42:52 <oklopol> cpressey: interestingly enough, no!
18:43:39 <oklopol> where - is set theoretic subtraction since you're smartasses
18:45:15 <cpressey> tuples of small categories, that is
18:45:39 <oklopol> oerjan: take two vertices, one to the left, one to the right of the ball, and for any k put 5(k + 2) C_5's around the ball somewhere between the two side vertices, then connect the side vertices to the points of the C_5 next to them, and for adjacent C_5's, connect each point to two points of the next C_5
18:45:53 <oklopol> kind of hard to explain but maybe you'll get it
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18:46:34 <oklopol> that's equivalent to an icosahedron when k = 0
18:48:34 <oklopol> in this case i'm putting them on a sphere so pentagon is not really a good term
18:50:08 <cpressey> <oklopol> fun little problem: find a 5-regular planar graph, where 5-regular = every vertex has degree 5 <--- wait what?
18:50:25 <oklopol> hey so last night or last week or whatever i proved that tally sets can't be NP-complete, didn't i do some stuff on left sets here at some point?
18:50:27 <cpressey> do the edges have to be straight or something?
18:50:32 <oklopol> maybe if i don't remember, no one will
18:50:33 <oerjan> ...but the faces of a dodecahedron are pentagons
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18:51:08 <oklopol> oerjan: if you put a C_5 around a sphere, there are no angles
18:51:20 <cpressey> because if not, just have two vertices, and 5 edges between them. done. planar as all hell
18:51:35 <elliott> oklopol: OR ARE THERE INFINITE ANGELS
18:51:47 <oklopol> cpressey: using the usual definition of graph here
18:51:51 <oklopol> just one edge and no self-loops
18:52:22 <oklopol> oerjan: or did you mean there can't be an isomorphism between the result of the construction and an somethinghedron?
18:52:27 <oklopol> cpressey: between each pair
18:52:44 <cpressey> no multigraphs or whatever they call that
18:52:51 <oklopol> they often call them multigraphs
18:53:03 <oerjan> oklopol: i'm just pointing out pentagons can be used for this, in a sense...
18:53:07 <oklopol> but definitions differ a lot in gt
18:53:23 <oerjan> although that's mixing faces and vertices with the duality
18:53:57 <oklopol> you can use all kinds of things if you're smart enough
18:54:29 <oerjan> I USE A PROJECTED PENROSE TILING FROM HYPERSPACE
18:56:02 <oklopol> a more fun problem: show that a 4-critical graph is either a wheel of even order or it contains no wheels as a subgraph
18:56:12 <oklopol> no theorems needed, but a lot of definitions
18:56:53 <oklopol> 4-critical = exists proper 4-coloring of vertices, and no 3-coloring, but in any proper subgraph there exists a 3-coloring
18:57:30 <oklopol> wheel of order n = C_{n-1} + a node connected to each of its points
18:58:16 <cpressey> i'd rather do the what you call "kids math"
18:58:22 <oklopol> the solution presented in our homework session was wrong, followed by the official solution by the professor, which was also wrong :D
18:58:27 <oklopol> (although only slightly wrong)
19:03:33 <oerjan> <oklopol> isn't the sun already slightly radioactive
19:04:21 <oerjan> if by radioactive you mean "occasionally sends out enough charged particles to kill an unprotected human"
19:05:03 <oerjan> no, earth is protected by its magnetic field and atmosphere
19:05:31 <oklopol> well i don't know any of that fancy magnet stuff but i like the idea of being protected.
19:06:08 <oerjan> in fact the atmosphere is supposedly itself protected by the magnetic field, without it the radiation would slowly whittle the atmosphere away
19:06:14 <cpressey> I almost did it with 8 vertices, but I have one edge that goes between two vertices that already have an edge.
19:06:32 <oerjan> which may have happened on mars
19:06:52 <elliott> 22:02:54: <cpressey> strsplit(gsub('^:(.*?)\\!(.*?)\\s+PRIVMSG\\s+(.*?)\\s+\\:(.*?)$', '\\1\u2603\\2\u2603\\3\u2603\\4', line, perl=TRUE), '\u2603', fixed=TRUE)
19:07:07 <cpressey> so, um, 16 vertices, which is in fact 12 + 4k when k=1! cool
19:07:21 <oklopol> can you describe it somehow?
19:07:40 <cpressey> oklopol: make a copy of it, then hook up the two copies with two edges where I had the extra edge in the one
19:07:51 <elliott> 22:28:22: <cpressey> (I've modelled its personality after a cat I met once)
19:07:51 <elliott> did its eye pop out and did you eat it and absorb its esoteric powers
19:08:33 <oklopol> cpressey: i don't think you can do that planarly but maybe i'm mistaken
19:09:02 <cpressey> oklopol: it's possible i miscounted the # of edges here. maybe i'll try to draw it more neatly
19:09:14 <oklopol> actually it's possible planarly, if i know what you mean
19:09:15 <elliott> 23:08:42: <Vorpal> but really. R, J, K are all array processing languages. And have one letter names. There might be a pattern there. Should be investigated further.
19:09:20 <elliott> i don't think Vorpal quite knows what R is
19:09:45 <elliott> 23:11:12: <cpressey> K is rather insane. Maybe... naw.
19:09:49 <elliott> cpressey: it's probably been done :>
19:10:12 <elliott> 23:58:26: <tswett> It annoys me that there are global constants (variables?) that aren't classes.
19:10:12 <elliott> 23:58:32: <tswett> Transcript and Smalltalk, for example. Maybe others.
19:10:18 <cpressey> elliott: I couldn't find an implementation of K anyway. In the 4 whole seconds I spent looking
19:10:37 <elliott> cpressey: Pay up, or get K3 (the cool one with the GUI thing) from a hidden subdirectory of nsl.com :)
19:10:40 <oklopol> as they say, 5th second is the charm
19:10:51 <oerjan> <Vorpal> that explains why I had no memory of you being from Wales when you claimed that recently. So indeed, you fooled me a for a while there.
19:11:02 <oerjan> bah, no one outside britain knows the difference anyhow
19:12:15 <oerjan> just strangely unpronouncible places with bagpipes and leprechauns and whiskhey
19:12:53 <oerjan> and green. lots of green.
19:14:00 <elliott> 03:31:56: <augur> oklopol: well, you can do math in agda!
19:14:11 <elliott> this is to embarrassing to read
19:14:17 <elliott> oklopol: i swear us dependent type guys aren't that bad
19:14:35 <cpressey> whoops. oklopol: i actually have 2 multiedges. dammit
19:14:49 <oklopol> cpressey: took me 45 minutes to come up with a solution
19:15:02 <elliott> 03:35:30: <oklopol> i imagine doing math in agda would be similar to programming in brainfuck, sure it can be fun but you'll be proving 1+1=2.
19:15:17 <elliott> oklopol: does gödel's incompleteness theorem count as 1+1=2? :D
19:15:19 <elliott> well, that was actually coq.
19:15:25 <oklopol> well maybe not quite that long but longer than oerjan's 5 seconds
19:15:50 <elliott> oklopol: no, russell o'connor did: http://r6.ca/Goedel/goedel1.html
19:16:08 <oklopol> and was he an amateur at coq?
19:16:15 <oklopol> gdel's theorem isn't all that deep
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19:16:26 <elliott> "Because my proof is constructive, it is possible, in principle, to compute this sentence that makes PA incomplete." ;; this is the coolest part :)
19:16:42 <cpressey> > let true & false = true in true & false
19:16:42 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> (It's the UK body to which easily-offended people complain.)
19:16:43 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `true'Not in scope: `false'
19:16:57 <oerjan> what we need is mandatory sterilization of easily offended people.
19:17:30 <oklopol> we computed many sentences that make PA incomplete in automata theory
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19:17:45 <elliott> 08:57:33: <mtve> quite esoteric - http://arxiv.org/abs/1104.0924v1
19:18:05 <oklopol> it's not rocket science, and in any case i'm talking about what an amateur can do
19:18:06 <elliott> oklopol: well this is the gödel one :P
19:18:20 <elliott> oklopol: printing it before we all die is impossible though. and that is because it is a poison.
19:20:28 <cpressey> > let True & False = True in True & False
19:20:46 <elliott> 12:32:10: <Ilari> Hah. I seemingly got signed up to one mailing list in "opt-out" fashion (quite understandable given the situation).
19:20:47 <elliott> 12:33:27: <Ilari> Well, basically one mailing list was shut down and new one created to continue (apparently mailman can't rename mailing lists).
19:20:53 <elliott> Ilari: this wouldn't happen to be the ffmpeg/libav fiasco?
19:21:12 <cpressey> it wasn't a fiasco, it was an imbroglio
19:22:12 <oerjan> <cpressey> I haven't worked it out -- such a railgun might have to be really, really long. [...] <-- i have this hunch part of the problem is you don't want the speed to get too high until you've passed most of the atmosphere...
19:22:13 <elliott> Ilari: with /that/, the people who had, two months prior, attempted to perform a ridiculous coup d'etat on the project forked off and made a new mailing list, then subscribed every member of the ffmpeg mailing list to their new one, claiming it was just a "project rename"
19:22:28 <elliott> Ilari: (they then used their technical control of the ffmpeg lists to shut them down, telling everyone to move to the "newly-renamed" libav lists)
19:24:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: because they didn't like how the maintainer was handling proposed patches
19:24:43 <elliott> a perfectly valid complaint, but trying to take over the project without telling anyone through technical means without trying to discuss it or even fork is enough to make me not give a damn what they're complaining about
19:24:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think he was rejecting patches based on what they saw as trivial grounds or something
19:27:48 <cpressey> I have a code review that is three pages long (ReviewBoard pages -- I'm not sure how it decides how long a page is) that is boring me out of my skull
19:28:21 <cpressey> You know, when you almost entirely rewrite something, diffs are almost entirely useless
19:30:43 * elliott watches cpressey slowly give up on life
19:36:42 <cpressey> I am becoming more and more convinced that programming (heavily, exclusively) in Python changes the way you think for the worse.
19:38:57 <elliott> cpressey: only suicide can cure you
19:39:04 <elliott> Do not attempt suicide because of this line.
19:39:11 <elliott> (Attempt it because of the line three lines up instead!)
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19:39:39 <elliott> 16:16:25: <Phantom_Hoover> "A billboard which featured a depressed goth and the slogan 'Cheer up Goth. Have an Irn Bru.' was also criticised for inciting bullying." — the ASA is basically the funniest thing ever.
19:39:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well people might whack goths with irn brus
19:40:04 <elliott> dammit, i should stop giving ph ideas
19:40:21 <cpressey> idea: language where all expressions have side effects. an integer expression is in fact of the form kB where B is a block of code (possibly empty) that is executed k times.
19:40:26 <elliott> is it just me, or is wikipedia's new anti-vandal policy is to show the edit button as "View source" until you click it, if you're not logged in?
19:40:39 <elliott> it's ingenious in its stupidity
19:48:20 <elliott> cpressey really likes this part of haskell
19:50:36 <cpressey> > let in let in let in let in let in let in "let"
19:50:44 <oerjan> > let a = 5 where in a
19:50:56 * Sgeo is reading about the Maude language
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19:51:10 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `in'
19:51:21 <cpressey> Sgeo: I never got very far with Maude
19:51:30 <cpressey> I... just tried to tab-complete Maude, though
19:53:07 <oerjan> > let a | otherwise = b where in a
19:54:01 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
19:54:15 <elliott> cpressey: watchoo do to http://catseye.tc/lab/robin/robin.html, i'm logreading and broken links totally destroy my flow
19:54:17 <elliott> oerjan: omg that would be awesome
19:54:26 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `;'
19:54:32 <elliott> let in do let; let in do let; let; "hi"; let in do let
19:54:51 <oerjan> > let in do let in do let in do let in "hi"
19:55:02 <elliott> 16:22:32: <cpressey> I think the name 'Irn Bru' is inherently bullying.
19:55:10 <elliott> cpressey: really? well i guess it's kinda cheesy
19:55:13 <elliott> I GUESS YOU JUST HAVE TO GROW UP WITH IT
19:55:36 <cpressey> it suggests the lowest-class pronunciation in my head
19:55:50 <cpressey> don't know if that was intentional or what
19:55:53 <elliott> cpressey: it's probably meant to
19:56:02 <elliott> i don't really parse it out as, you know, iron brew
19:56:45 <elliott> Irn-Bru and Diet Irn-Bru have been formulated since 2002 by A.G. Barr plc to meet the regulations for food colouring of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. Ponceau 4R used in the UK formulation is prohibited by U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA). Barr's uses alternative food and drink colourants manufactured by a US Company approved by the FDA. The product labelling also meets US labelling standards on nutritional information and bar code
19:56:46 <elliott> . Compliant Irn-Bru is solely imported by Great Scot International in Charlotte, North Carolina, who supplies distributors and retailers throughout the US. It is only supplied in 16.9 fl.oz.
19:56:53 <elliott> cpressey: HA, YOUR PUNY COUNTRY CAN'T HANDLE SCOTTISH METAL DRINK
19:57:13 <elliott> 16:30:59: <Phantom_Hoover> UNLESS you put it on a GIANT TURNTABLE
19:57:20 <oerjan> wait you mean irn bru isn't something fancy gaelic?
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19:58:36 <oerjan> they made irn bru technically illegal with no penalty just so ais523 couldn't drink it
19:59:07 <ais523> I wouldn't drink it anyway, I don't like that sort of thing
19:59:44 <Sgeo> There's something... fun about Maude's infix operators
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20:01:03 <oerjan> we need a language with non-euclidean operators
20:01:26 <Phantom_Hoover> As the channel's resident expert on stupid non-Euclidean things, I approve.
20:01:27 <oerjan> the kind Man was Not Meant to Know
20:01:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i'm gonna BLOW YOUR MIND
20:02:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the universe
20:02:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: is NON-EUCLIDEAN
20:02:08 <Zwaarddijk> so this language should be C(noneuclidean operator)^2
20:04:27 <augur> elliott: fuck you :|
20:04:54 <augur> agdas pretty neat tho
20:05:26 <elliott> why waste all your time proving things that would take three seconds in coq :)
20:05:48 <elliott> augur: proving things in agda is a bitch. compared to coq
20:06:33 <augur> elliott: maybe. its not /too/ bad, i find. i like how it forces you to understand the structure of the proof, which i feel is good if im going to be writing papers using a proof assistant as a tool
20:06:44 <augur> i dont want to have to explain the magic of coq on top of stuff
20:06:44 <elliott> ITT: augur has never used coq ever
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20:07:07 <elliott> proofs in agda == proofs in coq. coq just has tools to help you write them, and agda doesn't.
20:07:24 <augur> what tools does coq have?
20:07:30 <elliott> proofgeneral's interface to the toplevel.
20:07:38 <augur> ill have to take a look
20:07:42 <elliott> you can see all your assumptions and your current goal, plus the goals left after that
20:07:48 <elliott> and undo proof steps, etc.
20:08:03 <augur> i dont mind the agda stuff. its fun to figure out how to construct it.
20:08:08 <augur> but ill take a look at coq
20:08:11 <elliott> although if he's avoiding "magic" (like agda's library isn't magic?) he might want to avoid "auto" :)
20:08:19 <elliott> augur: turn on three window mode and electric terminator in proofgeneral
20:08:21 <augur> im not using much of agda
20:08:53 <elliott> because you're using its proof combinators
20:08:58 <elliott> unless you're writing proofs in direct functional style
20:09:07 <elliott> (setq proof-three-window-enable t)
20:09:15 <elliott> and (setq proof-electric-terminator-enable t)
20:09:20 <augur> what do you mean in direct functional stuff
20:09:28 <elliott> augur: paste a proof/lemma
20:09:33 <elliott> i'll tell you whether you're using the library or not
20:09:43 <elliott> (protip: if there's unicode, you are)
20:09:59 <augur> i use unicode a lot.
20:10:20 <elliott> augur: i mean apart from the things you type.
20:10:31 <elliott> if there are unicode things in your source file that aren't names you made up
20:10:59 <elliott> then that's magic. if you don't believe me, look at its source sometime.
20:11:23 <augur> http://hpaste.org/45440/syntax_crap
20:11:33 <augur> look at whats source
20:12:08 <elliott> the stdlib's. why are you making this simple conversation so painful X_X
20:12:40 <elliott> oh nice, you're actually copy-pasting the stdlib directly in.
20:12:51 <augur> not copy and pasting anything
20:12:59 <elliott> welp, typical unicode agda noise :)
20:13:00 <augur> are you referring to danielsson's standard library?
20:14:00 <augur> part of the reason im doing it this way is that i want to understand the structure of the program as completely as possible, and making it myself helps me understand
20:14:09 <elliott> i am referring to the agda standard library
20:14:16 <elliott> http://www.cse.chalmers.se/~nad/listings/lib-0.5/README.html
20:14:57 <augur> and part of it is that if i have to explain some crap to anyone who asks (who isnt so good on all of this mathylogicy stuff) i'd like to be able to give them a clean answer from the source code directly
20:15:08 <augur> without referencing some magic library off somewhere in the ether
20:15:18 <elliott> or, you know, just linking to its source
20:15:29 <augur> except thats more problematic if im giving a presentation.
20:15:37 <augur> and someone asks about this or that
20:15:41 <elliott> anyway, i can't see any of this being very easy to explain because like most agda it uses unicode tricks and mixfix to obscure the point
20:15:50 <augur> then i have to try and remember what the standard lib says etc etc whatever
20:15:53 <elliott> i see they still noise up their code with explicit level wrangling, too
20:16:29 <augur> i rather like the unicode and mixfix
20:16:31 <augur> why dont you like it?
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20:26:10 <augur> coq looks interesting
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20:27:02 <augur> i dont follow the structure of the proofs tho
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20:28:59 <augur> i understand agda proofs -- if it type checks, youve got a proof
20:29:05 <augur> i dont get coq at all
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20:36:37 <Gregor> Hmmm, OmniGraffle is the only graphical tool I've ever used that I would say is appropriate for people with OCD :P ... mmm, maybe also Minecraft.
20:41:09 <elliott> <augur> i understand agda proofs -- if it type checks, youve got a proof
20:41:13 <elliott> augur: uhh, same with Coq?
20:41:37 <ais523> apparently someone rewrote xmonad in Coq
20:41:39 <ais523> just because they could
20:41:46 <elliott> ais523: stop being slashdot
20:41:53 <ais523> (with the normal Reddit-related meaning of "apparently")
20:41:59 <elliott> not even reddit had that, I've seen the posts
20:42:12 <elliott> "We rewrote parts of xmonad's core algorithms in Coq to prove them correct and extracted the results to Haskell"
20:42:23 <elliott> "Someone rewrote xmonad in Coq!"
20:42:37 <tswett> elliott: no, Transcript and Smalltalk are not classes.
20:42:44 <elliott> tswett: well, they're objects
20:42:47 <augur> elliott: perhaps! but the proofs also have all these other things
20:42:54 <ais523> beh, it'd have been more fun if there was no reason
20:42:56 <augur> unfold f, g. destruct h. etc etc
20:42:59 <elliott> augur: yes, those are tactics
20:43:04 <elliott> augur: if you "Print proof_name"
20:43:10 <tswett> elliott: I define "better" as "skiing is not better than chess, nor vice versa".
20:43:13 <elliott> the tactics just make proofs about 159% easier to write
20:43:33 <elliott> tswett: Then I say that your question is unanswerable.
20:43:52 <elliott> Perhaps any new came-up-with game would be better technically, or in some other sense, than PerlNomic, but that does not mean it would be a better game.
20:43:58 <elliott> I'd say that both are games worth playing.
20:45:57 <tswett> Say, elliott, would you happen to know of an implementation of a Lisp that has Smalltalk-esque orthogonal persistence? :P
20:46:25 <elliott> Well, just about every Common Lisp implementation lets you save the current world.
20:46:44 <tswett> That sounds desirable.
20:47:43 <olsner> flrgbl flrbgl shfpngr!
20:47:55 <elliott> tswett: Yes, but, Common Lisp.
20:47:58 <cpressey> Someone rewrite skiing's core algorithms in chess to prove them better and extracted the results to xmonad.
20:48:08 <elliott> I like the change of tense there
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20:48:44 <tswett> I think all mathematics should be developed with the goal of using it in a window manager.
20:49:00 <tswett> Mathematical research should follow this algorithm:
20:49:13 <elliott> omg, does this mean that the singularity will manage windows for me
20:49:22 <elliott> and figuring out my desired arrangement
20:49:47 <tswett> 1. Think of an idea. 2. Make hypotheses about the idea. 3. Prove as many of the hypotheses as possible. 4. Incorporate all resulting theorems into xmonad.
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20:56:38 <cpressey> This message has been translated into French.
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20:58:20 <augur> cpressey: ce message a trad.. a francais
20:58:21 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Well, just about every Common Lisp implementation lets you save the current world. ← I don't recall non-SBCL or CMUCL having it, but I wasn't exactly thorough.
21:07:44 <cpressey> I hope to never, ever program anything in that language.
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21:10:47 <elliott> cpressey: Err, what, Lisp?
21:13:28 <elliott> cpressey: Better experience than 99% of languages...
21:16:49 <cpressey> Well, Common Lisp specifically.
21:17:09 <elliott> cpressey: I stand by my statement :)
21:17:50 <elliott> cpressey: Admittedly the modern /environments/ aren't so ideal.
21:18:09 <elliott> But the language itself is something I'd much rather have to code in than almost every other language.
21:18:14 <elliott> (There are maybe ten exceptions.)
21:18:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Epigram 2 doesn't count due to not existing in any meaningful way.
21:21:42 <olsner> too few languages to warrant making a list
21:22:10 <olsner> anyway, EVERYTHING SUCKS
21:22:30 <elliott> olsner: you're either mocking me perfectly, or are a man I can relate to.
21:22:37 <oerjan> it's a Maybe (Exception, Maybe (Exception, Maybe (Exception, Maybe (Exception, Maybe (Exception, Maybe (Exception, Maybe (Exception, Maybe (Exception, Maybe (Exception, Void)))))))))
21:22:38 <cpressey> As long as Scheme is one of the exceptions, it kind of wins out, for me.
21:23:18 <elliott> cpressey: Yeah, but if you were groaning at the lack of standardised names... at least the name for common list operations are the same in every Common Lisp :P
21:23:33 <elliott> cpressey: And, sure, but, Common Lisp or PHP?
21:23:39 <elliott> Common Lisp or Python? Perl? C? Ada?
21:23:55 <elliott> cpressey: I... am floored that you know what Pharen is.
21:24:17 <cpressey> I heard [about it] through the grapevine
21:24:23 <olsner> "a compiler that takes a Lisp-like language and turns it into PHP" :/
21:24:32 <elliott> cpressey: was just about to correct you BRO
21:25:04 <elliott> I mean, 90% of languages are really bad.
21:25:16 <elliott> 9% of the rest are tolerable but not any good.
21:25:27 <elliott> I'd say Common Lisp almost certainly belongs to the remaining 1%.
21:25:34 <cpressey> I would totally program in C for fun before I would program in Common Lisp for fun.
21:25:58 <elliott> cpressey: I don't really see how you could place Scheme above 'em but CL below C.
21:26:12 <elliott> Sure, the multiple namespaces is a bit crappy, and a lot of the standard names suck but... it's still Lisp
21:26:48 <elliott> Well, right, CLOS is one of the two tolerable OOP systems out there :)
21:29:03 <cpressey> elliott: I qualified my statement with "for fun" -- I am not concocting an absolute total order here.
21:29:48 <cpressey> I mean, dude. I just wrote a bot in R.
21:29:48 <elliott> Confound your imprecision!
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21:30:04 <cpressey> Do I put R above Common Lisp? Apparently!
21:32:07 <cpressey> right now I have to debug Javascript :( not by choice obv
21:34:03 <olsner> Y U PUT BUG IN PROGRAM? well, now you get to take it out...
21:34:11 <elliott> cpressey: "Ten days without much sleep to build JS from scratch, "make it look like Java" (I made it look like C), and smuggle in its saving graces: first class functions (closures came later but were part of the plan), Self-ish prototypes (one per instance, not many as in Self)."
21:34:20 <elliott> cpressey: ONLY KINSHIP WITH BRENDAN EICH CAN SAVE YOU
21:34:44 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, have I mentioned the time my school told everyone to use IE 5 *for Mac* to run JS.
21:35:07 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: yes. olsner: Django. (no further words are needed)
21:35:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Actually IE 5 for Mac was an okay browser.
21:35:33 <elliott> It shared no code with the Windows version.
21:35:56 <elliott> cpressey: listen to Django Reinhardt while doing it, it'll be SO IRONIC (hipster for "worthwhile, validating experience")
21:36:18 <elliott> cpressey: (I have never listened to Django Reinhardt and don't plan to)
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21:38:13 <olsner> django is named after a person?
21:38:23 <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something
21:40:43 <elliott> `addquote <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something
21:40:46 <HackEgo> 353) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something
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21:44:52 <elliott> "In Tron, the hacker was not supposed to be snooping around on a network; he was supposed to kill a process. So we went with posix kill and also had him pipe ps into grep. I also ended up using emacs eshell to make the terminal more l33t. The team was delighted to see my emacs performance -- splitting the editor into nested panes and running different modes. I was tickled that I got emacs into a block buster movie."
21:46:31 <elliott> http://jtnimoy-public.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/178/TRON_GFX_BR_07.JPG
21:46:39 <elliott> how far in the future is tron set
21:46:41 <elliott> because what i am seeing is:
21:46:43 <elliott> udev is never going to die
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22:12:07 <elliott> topipidpiaidpiapidpipiapidpiapidapidpipipidapidapidpiapidapidpiadadaapdiapidpia
22:20:44 <elliott> cpressey: you will love this
22:20:53 <elliott> `run python -c "print 'test'"
22:21:04 <elliott> `run python -c "True = False; print True; print True is False"
22:21:10 <elliott> `run python -c "True = False; print True; print True is False; print (True is False) is True"
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22:28:35 <elliott> that sounds exactly as awkward as the idea of mutable constants is
22:31:09 <elliott> ais523: please tell me that works
22:31:16 <ais523> elliott: it requires -v
22:31:22 <elliott> what does -v do again? extensions?
22:31:27 <ais523> no, it just lets you do tha
22:31:37 <ais523> I thought that letting people do it by accident was too mean
22:31:57 <cpressey> nothing that happens in INTERCAL is ever an accident
22:31:58 <ais523> in CLC-INTERCAL, you have to write it indirectly, as in DO .1 <- #2 DO .1 <- .1/#1
22:32:19 <ais523> that's a simple example, but in general it can be hard to spot you're assigning to a constant in more complex programs
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22:33:10 <ais523> so I put it behind an option for safety reasons
22:36:10 <ais523> also for portability, DO #1 <- #2 is a syntax error in INTERCAL-72, and thus might be being used for its properties as a syntax error
22:36:21 <ais523> and the switch chooses whether it compiles as a syntax error or a calculate statement
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22:40:30 <elliott> heh, it's literally impossible to extend INTERCAL
22:40:44 <elliott> you can extend most languages safely by making a previously-invalid construct valid
22:40:48 <elliott> in INTERCAL, that doesn't work
22:41:16 <ais523> elliott: some extensions have been done like that
22:41:23 <ais523> e.g. threading when two COME FROMs aim at the same line
22:41:23 <elliott> ais523: but they break programs that rely on those lines to be invalid
22:41:39 <zzo38> What you can do with INTERCAL is make up where there are compiler switches to select which extensions are available
22:46:01 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL actually uses a plugin architecture to handle thata
22:46:07 <ais523> although they're called "preloads"
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22:53:45 <zzo38> Do you know what is wrong with the "TRON:Legacy" picture? Is that the control key is missing.
22:56:14 <elliott> oh, tron: legacy is set in... the present day? huh
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23:03:22 <zzo38> I tried to send a program to CTAN but it is not on there
23:13:39 <Sgeo_> Stanislav apparently likes Squeak
23:14:31 <Sgeo_> Sadly, there seem to be no blog posts about it
23:14:43 * Sgeo_ sees one thing that possibly tangentally mentions Smalltalk
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23:16:47 <Sgeo_> "The Lisp Machine (which could just as easily have been, say, a Smalltalk machine)..."
23:19:59 <Sgeo_> http://www.loper-os.org/?p=85
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23:29:38 * Sgeo_ wonders how difficult it would be to make a Morphic web browser in Squeak
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23:46:05 <zzo38> The PDF of TUGboat 3,1 (March 1982), 10-27 is difficult to read. Where is the web source file for that article?
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23:46:59 <zzo38> Maybe I should ask Knuth for a copy?
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01:50:30 <Sgeo_> elliott's learning the alphabet! How cute!
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02:39:56 <elliott> -MemoServ- [...]'s inbox is full
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03:10:01 <Sgeo_> Just read a blog post called "Pharo, the death kneel of Squeak?"
03:10:11 <Sgeo_> And misread it as "Pharo, the death kneel of Smalltalk?"
03:10:19 <Sgeo_> (This is on a Cincom blog, so)
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05:03:04 <Sgeo_> Ah, crud, found a bug in some Pharo documentation
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05:06:56 <variable> Sgeo_: http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/mls/blogView?entry=3429226129 ?
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07:15:41 <oklopol> "<cpressey> I am becoming more and more convinced that programming (heavily, exclusively) in Python changes the way you think for the worse." <<< python hasn't changed me at all, i think
07:17:00 <oklopol> "<cpressey> idea: language where all expressions have side effects. an integer expression is in fact of the form kB where B is a block of code (possibly empty) that is executed k times." <<< this is how you implement integers in lc, kinda, except for the side-effects part :D
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08:13:50 <oerjan> <elliott> -MemoServ- [...]'s inbox is full
08:14:04 <oerjan> i told you, its notice is too subtle...
08:14:56 <oerjan> well i suppose that might not be the cause there
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09:58:52 <zzo38> In a VLQ stream could you use 0x80 as a terminator? (That is, assuming you are not in the middle of a number)
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13:01:39 <Phantom_Hoover> [["Jake liked his women the way he liked his kiwi fruit: sweet yet tart, firm-fleshed yet yielding to the touch, and covered with short brown fuzzy hair."]]
13:06:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I think I just saw an Evony ad without any breasts at all.
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13:35:22 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Why must the Bulwer-Lytton web site be the most abysmally 1993 web site ever?
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13:36:22 <Gregor> Sorry, $800 is not absurd for a domain name if it's libc.so, you're not gettin' that out of me :P
13:37:05 <Phantom_Hoover> <Ilari> IPv4 exhaustion? I haven't really been following it...
13:39:24 <Gregor> <Phantom_Hoover> Today I shall make enough of an impression on someone that they could identify me personality and parody it.
13:40:40 <Phantom_Hoover> <ais523> Hmm, I forgot to pay for something. Ah, well, it's not worth fretting over.
13:42:18 <fizzie> <zzo38> [A completely normal comment.]
13:43:26 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> I found something I don't hate! <-- that actually happens, but then after looking at it for five more minutes he realizes he did in fact hate it.
13:44:19 <Phantom_Hoover> <{aloril, bsmntbombdood, dbc, enki-[quit], iamcal, jcp, jix, lifthrasiir, mtve, mycroftiv, pingveno, rodgort, sebbu, sftp, shachaf, SimonRC, yiyus, Zwaarddijk}> ANYTHING AT ALL
13:45:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, wait what, the domain is at $800 ? That's insane
13:45:16 <Gregor> Vorpal: The domain finally went for $1,350
13:53:15 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Zwaarddijk talks.
13:53:34 <Gregor> I remember a time when bsmntbombdood, SimonRC and jix talked :P
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13:59:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, To add to Gregor's list: lifthrasiir used to talk. mycroftiv talks sometimes, but rarely. sebbu I remember talking too.
14:06:24 <cheater99> jesus.. osx is so terrible.. i am having flashbacks
14:06:52 <cheater99> seriously, can't alt-tab to a window? what?
14:07:10 <cheater99> cluttering the switcher menu with inactive applications?
14:07:27 <Vorpal> cheater99, same thing...
14:07:40 <cheater99> no it's not, because you can't alt-tab into a window
14:07:50 <cheater99> you can alt-tab into an applciation and it brings up all of its windows at once.
14:08:10 <cheater99> and the best of them all.. you install applications by copying folders.
14:08:32 <cheater99> Phantom_Hoover: is that why all this hair has started showing up in weird places?
14:09:17 <cheater99> Phantom_Hoover: wait, growing up - i'm glad they didn't put me in a retirement house yet!
14:09:40 <Vorpal> cheater99, actually, self-contained applications is a good idea. The OS X packages may or may not be a good way to do that though.
14:10:05 <cheater99> what if i copy it to the wrong spot?
14:10:08 <Vorpal> but on windows, and linux, applications tend to spread out
14:10:23 <cheater99> i mean the idea of doing it like osx does it is bad
14:10:32 <Vorpal> linux has package manager, that works. Windows is a mess when it comes to installing/uninstalling things.
14:10:33 <cheater99> self-containment might have some merit, but i am not so sure either
14:10:38 <cheater99> i like packages with dependencies more
14:11:14 <Vorpal> cheater99, not quite. As for copying to wrong spot, I doubt things would blow up
14:11:18 <cheater99> oh yeah, let's have a billion copies of the same software in slightly-incompatible versions with different bugs in them
14:12:09 <cheater99> really, the lacking of a real alt-tab is devastating to my productivity
14:12:29 <cheater99> using the mouse to navigate between firefox windows? who's come up with that sick joke?
14:12:49 <Vorpal> cheater99, Only thing I use often that doesn't do tabs or such inside a single main window is gimp
14:13:10 <Vorpal> most things, like browser, text editor, and so on, are tabbed or similar.
14:13:31 <Vorpal> cheater99, why do you use multiple firefox windows...
14:13:58 <cheater99> one window for email, one window for reading up on whatever technology i am using right now, one window for another technology, one window for something else
14:14:13 <Vorpal> cheater99, anyway, I'm sure there is some third party program to do what you want. Or you could install linux on that thing.
14:14:47 <Vorpal> cheater99, email is a separate program, no?
14:15:45 <cheater99> it's not like gmail is running on my compu^w mac
14:16:14 <Vorpal> I use gmail from thunderbird with IMAP
14:17:06 <cheater99> Vorpal: another thing is that all the software on mac is paid-for
14:17:31 <cheater99> i bet the next version you'll need to pay-for the ability to create directories
14:17:36 <Vorpal> anyway, I'm sure there is some solution to your issue. Besides alt-tab is rather inefficient I find. Unless you just have a handful of windows/programs you end up tabbing a lot
14:18:00 <Vorpal> with more than 10 windows or so, alt-tab is pretty much unusable
14:18:12 <Vorpal> unless they happen to lie close to each other
14:18:42 <Vorpal> <cheater99> i bet the next version you'll need to pay-for the ability to create directories <-- that made no sense.
14:18:50 <cheater99> well i usually end up using only a few windows during any given extended time
14:19:30 <cheater99> so alt-tab works well, i only need to alt-tab 3-deep most times
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14:19:55 <cheater99> when i am changing my workflow (for example, starting to work on something else) i usually use the taskbar... oh wait, osx HAS NO TASKBAR
14:20:55 <Vorpal> it has a dock, which you can put stuff in. And also shows open programs. From what I remember the windows 7 task bar works pretty much the same.
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14:26:22 <cheater00> Vorpal: <Vorpal> <cheater99> i bet the next version you'll need to pay-for the ability to create directories <-- that made no sense. < what i meant was that you have to pay for such simple things, things that in linux have been solved ages ago, to much better effect than those paid-for options for mac, and the linux versions are free.
14:33:07 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: To continue your "impossibilities" theme: <dbc> [something that is not an ASCII-art fractal]
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14:33:46 <elliott> HOLY SHIT THE CLOG HEADER FILE CHANGED
14:33:57 <elliott> "For pre-2011 clog logs, go to http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/old/."
14:34:04 <elliott> now all log links are broken
14:34:25 <elliott> they're only available in zip now
14:34:58 <elliott> Breaking links is not a good idea. Ever.
14:36:12 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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14:37:15 <elliott> (But not for small, easily-kept, widely-publicised (in the community) plain text files like IRC logs.)
14:44:33 <fizzie> Obviously the only sensible solution is for #esoteric to become an IDF (International DOI Foundation) registered Registration Agency, and thereafter assign a DOI for each #esoteric log-line, to ensure them links will always stay intact.
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15:02:35 <fizzie> It's a supposedly-permanent-identifier-for-an-object thing; quite a lot of sciencey publishers provide DOIs for their papers.
15:03:04 <Gregor> It's at least significant enough to not be in Wikipedia :P
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15:06:53 <cheater00> fizzie: why have you not told me what DOI stands for?
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15:25:13 <fizzie> Document Object Identifier.
15:25:35 <fizzie> And it's in Wikipedia all right.
15:27:28 <Gregor> Oh, so it is, I just didn't speculate that that would be the expansion you were going for.
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15:31:34 <sebbu> Vorpal, sometimes, but rarely ;)
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15:38:06 <elliott> 13:35:22: <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Why must the Bulwer-Lytton web site be the most abysmally 1993 web site ever?
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15:38:23 <elliott> Gregor: Because the Bulwer-Lytton is ~0% as awesome as the Lyttle Lytton.
15:39:46 <elliott> 13:42:18: <fizzie> <zzo38> [A completely normal comment.]
15:39:50 <elliott> oh my god this is the best thing ever :D
15:40:06 <elliott> 13:53:34: <Gregor> I remember a time when bsmntbombdood, SimonRC and jix talked :P
15:40:10 <elliott> Gregor: i remember when the first two did
15:40:25 <elliott> 13:53:45: <Gregor> dbc is an enigma.
15:40:25 <elliott> I THINK WE'VE ALREADY ESTABLISHED HE'S VERY BUSY
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15:41:08 <elliott> 14:06:24: <cheater99> jesus.. osx is so terrible.. i am having flashbacks
15:41:08 <elliott> 14:06:52: <cheater99> seriously, can't alt-tab to a window? what?
15:41:16 <elliott> OH NOES OS X IS APPLICATION ORIENTED AND IT TAKES A DIFFERENT KEY COMBO TO SWITCH WINDOWS
15:41:34 <elliott> 14:08:10: <cheater99> and the best of them all.. you install applications by copying folders.
15:41:35 <elliott> OH NOES I DON'T HAVE TO DEAL WITH INSANELY CRAPPY INSTALLERS, APPLICATIONS ARE SELF-CONTAINED AND seriously there is not a single thing wrong with applications as directories?
15:41:38 <elliott> this is the poorest trolling ever
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15:42:57 <elliott> 14:09:40: <Vorpal> cheater99, actually, self-contained applications is a good idea. The OS X packages may or may not be a good way to do that though.
15:42:57 <elliott> 14:10:01: <cheater99> it's an insanely bad idea
15:42:57 <elliott> 14:10:05: <cheater99> what if i copy it to the wrong spot?
15:43:05 <elliott> i should totally not be feeding the troll but what the hell, Vorpal already did
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15:43:19 <elliott> especially considering that os x apps can run from anywhere anyway
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15:44:21 <elliott> 14:33:07: <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: To continue your "impossibilities" theme: <dbc> [something that is not an ASCII-art fractal]
15:45:01 <Gregor> OS X's implementation of virtual desktops ("spaces") is abysmally bad, and in particular breaks modal windows; if they open in a non-current space, they have all modal properties except that they are not always-on-top or visible on every space, so they force the user (me) to play Hunt The Window. Other than that my problems with OS X are mainly its hilariously obsolete console userland and pointlessly flashy UI. LET THE TROLLERY BEGIN.
15:45:10 <fizzie> elliott: I am such an old-fashioned guy.
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15:45:18 <elliott> Gregor: Nobody likes Spaces X-P
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15:45:51 <elliott> Gregor: Nothing you said is incorrect, unlike every single incredibly poor trolling attempt by cheater that still provoked me and Vorpal into replying :P
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15:46:26 <Gregor> I like appdirs, wish LiGnuX (lol) would adopt 'em.
15:46:40 <elliott> Gregor: ROX is that way :P
15:46:55 <elliott> Gregor: (ROX being the rather dead attempt to clone the RISC OS environment on LeeGNUx.)
15:47:13 <elliott> Gregor: ROX Filer actually supports them, anyway, and IIRC there's some kind of Zero-Install integration :P
15:47:20 <elliott> (ROX Filer is also the only tolerable graphical file manager.)
15:47:43 <Gregor> The only tolerable graphical file manager is coreutils in an xterm!
15:48:09 <elliott> I still want a terminal/file manager hybrid that lets me type "t*" and all the files starting with t in the current directory would get highlighted in the top pane :P
15:48:20 <elliott> And also select files graphically and have it update a glob on the command line.
15:48:47 <elliott> e.g. "mv foo.png [fishes in top pane through subdir hierarchy for the right dir] a/b/c/d"
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15:49:49 <Gregor> I'm also waiting for PureDarwin :P
15:50:26 <elliott> Gregor: I want the opposite... I want someone to use that Mach-O loader to port all the OS X foundation libraries and then run the Quartz display server on it X-D
15:50:51 <elliott> ALSO KNOWN AS: The easiest way to get a userland newer than 10 years old in an OS X environment
15:51:18 <Gregor> ... I'm not sure what the purpose of using maloader is for that ...
15:51:31 <elliott> Gregor: Because... all the OS X Quartz binaries... are Mach-Os?
15:51:39 <Gregor> PureDarwin uses Mach-O, and is compatible with console Mac OS X apps.
15:51:59 <elliott> Well, yeah, you could do that.
15:52:06 <Gregor> In principle you could drag over the appropriate files from a Mac OS X install and make some beastly hybrid.
15:52:14 <Vorpal> <Gregor> OS X's implementation of virtual desktops ("spaces") is abysmally bad, and in particular breaks modal windows; if they open in a non-current space, they have all modal properties except that they are not always-on-top or visible on every space, so they force the user (me) to play Hunt The Window. Other than that my problems with OS X are mainly its hilariously obsolete console userland and poin
15:52:15 <Vorpal> tlessly flashy UI. LET THE TROLLERY BEGIN. <-- apart from system auth dialogs and critical system error messages, modal windows are a *bad* idea.
15:52:22 <elliott> I'm not sure the kernel modules and drivers and the like would interact properly :P
15:52:31 <Gregor> Vorpal: Yes, they are, but that doesn't make it OK to break them ...
15:52:41 <Gregor> elliott: True enough *shrugs*
15:52:54 <elliott> Gregor: Anyway, the thing with app folders is that they're... wait for it... essentially just static linking.
15:53:03 <elliott> At least if done in the OS X "every app includes its dependencies" sense.
15:53:05 <Vorpal> Gregor, they shouldn't be permitted IMO. Like you should need to run with elevated privs to be able to tell the windowing system to show a modal window.
15:53:21 <elliott> I suppose you could have a nice deduplicative system that hard-links libraries with equivalent checksums and filenames, but :P
15:53:38 <elliott> What I'm sayin' is: STATIC LINKING IT'S WHAT'S FOR DINNER
15:54:31 <Vorpal> I mean, how hard would it be to make a screen locker kind of application without the unlocking stuff? I doubt you need special privs with X11 for it, other than the basic "permitted to talk to server"
15:54:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Depends how you define "modal"
15:55:07 <elliott> If it's "modal to one window/application", that's shitty, but not something to ban
15:55:11 <Vorpal> elliott, well, modal within an application would be okay yeah
15:55:12 <elliott> Especially as the app could simulate it itself.
15:55:14 <Gregor> elliott: Static linking is fine, people just have to learn that there's a distinction between "random vendor-supplied garbage" and "random distro-supplied garbage", and different types of linking and inclusion policies are better for each.
15:55:21 <Vorpal> elliott, what I meant here was system wide modal
15:55:59 <elliott> Gregor: Sure... but on a typical Linux system, there's not much more than libc that fits the system-wide dynamic policy there :P
15:56:38 <elliott> Maybe libpng and the like, ncurses, arguably gtk/qt, ...
15:56:52 <Vorpal> elliott, which should pretty much be limited to stuff like auth dialogs, confirmation of shutdown/log out, and criticial errors ("system logger just crashed" would be a good example)
15:57:06 <Gregor> elliott: Well, now that you've covered 95% of libraries that programs typically link to, what next? :P
15:57:32 <elliott> Gregor: I said ARGUABLY gtk/qt, I don't think I'd dynamically link those in reality.
15:57:44 <elliott> Because I don't trust GUI lib vendors to not fuck up the ABI :)
15:58:07 <Gregor> $ du -h /usr/lib64/qt4/libQtWebKit.so.4.6.2
15:58:07 <Gregor> 16M /usr/lib64/qt4/libQtWebKit.so.4.6.2
15:58:24 <Vorpal> elliott, I have an idea. It has probably been thought of before. On-the-fly static linking. (Probably with some OS-managed caching though)
15:58:25 <Gregor> (Not an argument, just an observation I always ♥)
15:58:58 <elliott> Gregor: Yah, that's a really convincing argument that C++ and Qt and WebKit all need to die in a fiery pit :P
15:59:24 <Vorpal> elliott, basically it statically links in .a and .o on as required when you run it. This would allow deduplicative storage too
15:59:38 <Gregor> What OBLISK did way back when I maintained it was accept any host libraries that pass the ldd -r test, and if they don't it swapped them out for included libraries. So bugfixes or distro integration could be used in most cases, but it would work in other cases.
15:59:48 <elliott> Unfortunately the typical benefit of static linking (only links what you need) doesn't really help there because (1) there's not that many separate components to WebKit from an app point of view and (2) they probably don't separate their object files properly because that would be horrific in C++.
16:00:33 <elliott> Gregor: Honestly I'm *actually* a total dynamic linking fan, it's just that Unix fucks it up like everything :P
16:00:49 <elliott> I like static linking on Unix purely because it's less of a headache.
16:01:09 <Gregor> elliott: And you prefer what, PE/COFF .dlls? :P
16:01:20 <Gregor> Vorpal: A portable appdir system I made once a long long time ago.
16:02:33 <elliott> Gregor: I prefer a late-bound object (FSVO 〃) ecosystem X-D
16:02:41 <Vorpal> elliott, you could do "only links what you need" with dynamic linking too. /lib/libc/printf.so eh?
16:03:16 <elliott> Sweet, Unicode has mutton spaces.
16:03:26 <Vorpal> Gregor, how does webkit compare to boost on that system?
16:03:40 <Vorpal> elliott, what on earth is a "mutton space"?
16:04:23 <elliott> Boost doesn't have all that many object files
16:04:46 <elliott> C++ libraries can only be statically linked because of templates, pretty much... statically source-linked. With headers.
16:04:53 <elliott> (Template-based C++ libraries, that is.)
16:05:07 <Vorpal> elliott, it does have the longest symbols names on my system though (both when mangled and unmangled)
16:05:23 <Vorpal> it does have a few .so
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16:08:47 <Ilari> New estimate for APNIC depletion: Friday 15th April.
16:09:57 <Vorpal> Ilari, what happens then? Some special rule for last block?
16:10:08 <Ilari> Slow week: 0.33 blocks.
16:12:47 <Ilari> It seems that slow and fast weeks alternate. Week before this used about 0.56 blocks.
16:13:28 <Ilari> And in alternation, next week would be "fast", depling APNIC.
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16:14:16 <fizzie> Phew, for a moment I thought "depling" was some sort of new hip Internet slang for depletion-in-the-context-of-IPv4.
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16:18:39 <elliott> 15:58:24: <Vorpal> elliott, I have an idea. It has probably been thought of before. On-the-fly static linking. (Probably with some OS-managed caching though)
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16:20:49 <Vorpal> elliott, the dynamic linker (ld.so) works quite differently from the static linker (ld)
16:21:08 <Vorpal> this would however work better with byte code I think
16:21:32 <Vorpal> elliott, what does smalltalk do? I'm not sure how to classify it
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16:30:12 <Ilari> Logspace: /9.217. Binary Decomposition: /10+/11+/13+/14+/15+/20+/21+/23.
16:32:44 -!- variable has changed nick to invariable.
16:37:31 <Ilari> Block counts (start at /10): 1, 2, 4, 9, 19, 38, 76, 163, 346, 756, 1586, 3309, 6749, 13738, 28186.
16:38:35 <Ilari> That is, 19 large blocks (256k) remain.
16:44:33 <Phantom_Hoover> OK GUYS I HAVE COME UP WITH MY PRETENTIOUS LATIN MOTTO
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17:05:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Whaddya mean "what does smalltalk do"?
17:16:41 <Vorpal> elliott, well, with it's world image thingy, does it link the executable code for running it at runtime?
17:17:04 <Vorpal> I don't even know if they JIT, interpret or whatever
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17:20:53 <Gregor> Vorpal: When new code is encountered, the Smalltalk VM sends it to smalltalk.arpa:666, where it is received by the only living human who understands Smalltalk. He rewrites it in C, which is sent back to the VM. The VM compiles that C into an object file and dynamically loads that into its current environment.
17:21:32 <elliott> 17:16:41: <Vorpal> elliott, well, with it's world image thingy, does it link the executable code for running it at runtime?
17:21:35 <elliott> I still don't know what this means.
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17:28:48 <Vorpal> Gregor, aha. Well that explains why I never managed to get it working without an internet connection.
17:30:10 <elliott> http://wikien4.appspot.com/wiki/Main_Page
17:31:04 <Gregor> elliott: I like how it replaced "the" but not "The"
17:31:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not sure what I meant. But does smalltalk need a linker to execute?
17:31:43 <Vorpal> (apart from, you know, for loading the virtual machine on the host os)
17:31:53 <elliott> Vorpal: To execute what? The Smalltalk VM? A given method?
17:32:08 <Vorpal> elliott, the latter I guess
17:35:24 <elliott> Vorpal: Does Python require a linker for a method to execute "obj = Foo(); obj.bar()"?
17:37:54 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, arguably you could say that it has a kind of linker for "import somemodule"
17:38:05 <Vorpal> not really in the normal sense of linker though
17:38:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Not really a linker; it just executes somemodule.py in the current global context, really.
17:43:44 <elliott> Ilari: What TLDs have A records?
17:44:32 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, right. I guess it would be more of a linker (though still not very much) for something like java
17:44:51 <Ilari> elliott: IIRC, none anymore (but some IIRC did in the past).
17:44:52 <invariable> <elliott> Ilari: What TLDs have A records? --> none should
17:45:02 <invariable> Ilari: do you mean the wildcard domains?
17:45:09 <elliott> Ilari: invariable: factually incorrect
17:45:13 <elliott> IIRC n@ai is a guy called Ian :-)
17:45:25 <elliott> my browser will refuse to go to http://ai/. but the IP works.
17:45:42 <Vorpal> elliott, .ai, where is that?
17:45:48 <Gregor> elliott: How about http://ai./?
17:45:53 <Ilari> Ah, there are those (I looked it wrong).
17:46:11 <elliott> I wonder how many email clients will send to n@ai.
17:46:14 <Ilari> ai. doesn't just have a A record, it has _MX_ record.
17:46:15 <Vorpal> elliott, and lucky guy that Ian.
17:46:30 <elliott> Right. Thus the email I guess :-P
17:46:40 <elliott> Strange, dig(1) doesn't give me the NX record.
17:46:57 <Vorpal> elliott: dig ai. IN MX
17:46:58 <invariable> elliott: most email clients won't send to all RFC compliant email addresses
17:46:59 <Ilari> Meh, no AAAA records.
17:47:09 <elliott> Ilari: Write an complain ;)
17:47:12 <elliott> invariable: You forgot (comments).
17:47:23 <Vorpal> elliott, that gives me the MX record. Sure you remembered IN MX?
17:47:41 <invariable> elliott: heh. by I stand by my none *should* comment before
17:47:50 <elliott> invariable: YOU ARE NO FUN.
17:48:06 <elliott> Shut up, I want a three-character domain name :-D
17:48:18 <invariable> elliott: I WANT A GOOD DOMAIN NAME TOO
17:48:27 <Ilari> That doesn't have MX record, but A record is enough for SMTP to attempt delivery.
17:48:29 <elliott> DON'T SAY SUCH THINGS THEN
17:48:32 <Vorpal> <invariable> elliott: most email clients won't send to all RFC compliant email addresses <-- pine/alpine/mutt can even handle comments with escaped end-comment symbols within. Way more than for example thunderbird can
17:48:51 <Gregor> invariable: We can't always get what we want.
17:49:06 <Gregor> invariable: Dood, I didn't get libc.so
17:49:06 <invariable> Gregor: you failed the libc.so auction?
17:49:12 <elliott> invariable: Nope, it went to $1,000,000 which was 2 cents over his limit.
17:49:21 <elliott> (His pocket money for the week)
17:49:56 <Vorpal> invariable, I think he said it went to $1300 or something around there
17:50:02 <Vorpal> which was still over his budget
17:50:14 <Vorpal> invariable, elliott was (of course) exaggerating
17:50:17 <Gregor> invariable: We will soon know who got it :P
17:51:08 <Gregor> invariable: To elliott, $1,000 is effectively infinite money, and values greater than infinity are like matter at speeds faster than light; theoretically possible, but impossible to see or measure.
17:51:20 <Gregor> "greater than $1,000" that is, since $1,000 = infinity.
17:51:26 <Ilari> ua. doesn't have A/AAAA but has MX records. :-)
17:52:35 <Gregor> invariable: The same goes for ais btw.
17:53:20 -!- cpressey has joined.
17:53:28 <elliott> (Gregor is rationalising away anyone who tells him that spending $800 on a domain isn't worth it)
17:53:45 <Vorpal> Gregor, I like that explanation!
17:53:54 <Vorpal> (wait, did I typo that?)
17:54:52 <Vorpal> invariable, if you are away, how can you possibly say that? Or did you use a timer to cause your irc client to say that after you left?
17:55:25 <Gregor> He's locked in a matrix of solidity. He cannot respond.
18:00:03 <Sgeo> How about $75 for early access to a game and dev tools for it?
18:01:18 <Sgeo> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1508284443/grandroids-real-artificial-life-on-your-pc I want the $75 level
18:02:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, did you see your section of the List of Impossible Things.
18:03:05 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> I paid for something!
18:03:20 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:03:22 <elliott> "Note that NestedVM uses GCC 3.3.6, which will not compile under GCC 4.1 or later."
18:03:34 <elliott> I eagerly await the day where the only thing that compile a given gcc version is that gcc version.
18:03:39 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, yes, but would "I paid for something!" be the expansion?
18:04:05 <Sgeo> Hard to access monies
18:04:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But but he'd have to ask his father
18:04:25 <Phantom_Hoover> If the word "dad" appears in the reason for that I am coming to America.
18:05:20 <cpressey> <Vorpal> elliott, hm, arguably you could say that it has a kind of linker for "import somemodule"
18:05:32 <elliott> Hey cpressey. For all intensive purposes they will hopefully take for granite the peek affect on our moral of loosing there free rain over how we will be faring after pouring over the data which was delivered to late.
18:05:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm being dragged off to Italy, then I have to crash that LW meeting.
18:05:51 <Vorpal> cpressey, I forgot that python actually ran code in the module, if you have any outside functions
18:05:52 <elliott> DON'T MENTION IT IN A PUBLIC CHANNEL
18:05:52 <cpressey> Or you could say it has some kind of linker for "foo.bar"
18:05:56 <elliott> ELIEZER YUDKOWSKY KNOWS ALL
18:05:57 <Vorpal> cpressey, so scratch that
18:07:13 <Ilari> ac. has A, ai. has A/MX, as. has MX, bi. has A, bj. has MX, cf. has MX, cm. has A, dj. has MX, dk. has A, dm. has MX, gg. has A, gp. has MX, gt. has MX, hk. has A, hr. has MX, io. has A/MX, je. has A, kh. has MX, km. has MX, lk. has MX,
18:07:22 <Ilari> mh. has MX, mq. has MX, ne. has MX, pa. has MX, ph. has A, pn. has A, sh. has A, td. has A, tk. has A, tm. has A, to. has A, tt. has MX, ua. has MX, uz. has A, va. has MX, ws. has A/MX, xn--o3cw4h. has A and ye. has MX.
18:07:37 <Ilari> No AAAA records. :-/
18:08:16 <Vorpal> that must be a IDN one, right?
18:08:43 <Ilari> Thailand apparently.
18:09:04 <elliott> http://bi./ Bisexuality: It works!
18:09:12 <Gregor> elliott: I looked them up on Wikipedia, .bj isn't available to just anyone :P
18:09:37 <Vorpal> Ilari, what about TXT records? Does any have that?
18:10:04 <Ilari> I saw some, including URLs, SPF records and general text.
18:10:07 <elliott> are composed of a single nature;
18:10:07 <elliott> are composed of two letters only;
18:10:07 <elliott> begin or end with an indent “-”; or
18:10:07 <elliott> are of a length greater than 255 characters (or 63 by under field)
18:10:15 <elliott> What a really awkward paragraph
18:10:28 <elliott> Ilari: Now curl(1) all the domains with As, and filter out all the no-responses and "It works!"s :P
18:10:42 <Vorpal> elliott, where is that from?
18:11:21 <Vorpal> elliott, I think some redirects to the nic
18:12:15 <Ilari> Quite many TLDs have MX records. Wonder how many places would reject those addresses. :-)
18:26:43 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
18:28:35 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:31:05 <elliott> * cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving)
18:31:06 <elliott> * oerjan (oerjan@tyrell.nvg.ntnu.no) has joined #esoteric
18:31:17 <elliott> I was about to say "WORLD'S QUICKEST SEX CHANGE"
18:31:20 <elliott> then I was like... wait... what?
18:31:28 <elliott> apparently my brain knows something about cpressey and/or oerjan that I don't
18:31:37 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> QUICK I NEED MORE
18:31:45 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> yes ok i will use my operator powers to remove trolls.
18:32:20 <elliott> DOESN'T BAN ANYONE WHO ISN'T ELLIOTT
18:32:33 -!- asiekierka_ has joined.
18:32:35 <oerjan> elliott: YOU ARE NOT BANNED SHUTUP
18:32:35 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:32:44 <elliott> oerjan: Shut up about banning!
18:32:44 <oerjan> (SHUTUP on the other hand is banned)
18:35:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, Neil Gaiman's episode of Doctor Who is going to be called "The Doctor's Wife".
18:37:12 <oerjan> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, To add to Gregor's list: lifthrasiir used to talk. mycroftiv talks sometimes, but rarely. sebbu I remember talking too.
18:37:18 <oerjan> mtve talked the other day
18:38:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm. But isn't Neil Gaiman competent?
18:38:08 <sebbu> because he didn't ?
18:38:10 <oerjan> mainly so the whole channel won't be spammed by elliott trying to annoy Sgeo
18:38:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, he is, but remember that he'll still have to work it into whatever stupid story arc they have.
18:39:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm okay
18:39:08 <Phantom_Hoover> (I'm seriously wondering how Doctor Who is going to keep up the endless escalation of series finale threats.)
18:39:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, they still have a handful of doctors to go, right?
18:39:40 <Phantom_Hoover> "FUTURE EARTH" "MODERN EARTH" "THE UNIVERSE" "REALITY ITSELF" "ERM... SAME AGAIN" "DITTO"
18:40:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what do you mean, as cliff hangers or what?
18:40:22 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hm there was a severe lack of Sgeo in that list. although he probably needs his own section.
18:40:38 <Sgeo> oerjan, no there wasn't?
18:40:48 <Sgeo> Are you looking at logs, or just scrollback?
18:40:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I mean the inevitable and hammy as hell series finales.
18:41:25 <oerjan> Sgeo: i didn't see it because he took a break after it before all the others
18:41:52 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> "FUTURE EARTH" "MODERN EARTH" "THE UNIVERSE" "REALITY ITSELF" "ERM... SAME AGAIN" "DITTO"
18:41:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well we could always revisit TIME ITSELF
18:42:03 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, I think I kind of summed up most of the Sgeo ones
18:42:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The special. You know, with DEM GALLIFREY PEEPS.
18:42:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, is "time itself" worse than "reality itself"?
18:43:11 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose I can work it into my "time is 2D" theory for Doctor Who.
18:43:32 <oerjan> clearly the next level up is _our_ reality; they need to burn down the bbc or something.
18:43:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, I'm having some trouble telling if time never happening or reality never happening is worst.
18:44:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Define "time is 2D".
18:44:41 <Gregor> CONSIDER: A machine that allows you to "reorient" yourself relative to the physical and temporal dimensions, so that one of the physical dimensions becomes time, and time is experienced as a physical dimension.
18:44:45 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, rather than one time axis, you have 2, time and metatime.
18:44:56 <elliott> 18:39:28: <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, they still have a handful of doctors to go, right?
18:45:02 <elliott> "To go"? They have an infinite amount.
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18:45:18 <Gregor> elliott: There's some quote somewhere about a maximum of 12, which they just surpassed.
18:45:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, they should have started smaller. Then they would have more time left. Like "Hyde Park itself", "London itself", "England itself", "UK itself", "Europe itself" and so on
18:45:46 <elliott> Gregor: OH RIGHT, they're going to end a wildly popular 60s-onwards money-cow franchise...
18:45:57 <elliott> Because of an easily handwaved-away limit.
18:46:10 <Gregor> elliott: This is one of these "some fan saw this somewhere" limit, not one of these "the show will actually end" limits :P
18:46:13 <Vorpal> elliott, well they will have to do something about that limit.
18:46:16 <elliott> "Thanks to the energy from the TARDIS, I can DOUBLE my regenerations! YOU WON'T WIN THIS TIME, DALEKS!!!!!!!"
18:46:39 <Phantom_Hoover> But yeah, Doctor Who is horrific at internal consistency.
18:46:44 <elliott> An official limit that will stand until it is reached :P
18:46:49 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Ohright; not twelve doctors, twelve regenerations. And I was off by one on which doctor we're on.
18:47:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Right, so time, rather than being immutable, is mutable as metatime advances.
18:47:20 <Vorpal> <Gregor> CONSIDER: A machine that allows you to "reorient" yourself relative to the physical and temporal dimensions, so that one of the physical dimensions becomes time, and time is experienced as a physical dimension. <-- hm, that sounds awesome, but would other people see me floating sideways (my time)
18:47:36 <Vorpal> and what if I bump into a wall then
18:47:46 <Gregor> Vorpal: Yup. But the time dimension as space is what makes it really wtfery :P
18:47:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically, you go back in time and kill Hitler, you go forwards in metatime and the structure of time changes.
18:47:57 <oerjan> Vorpal: only if you actually move in the dimension that is _their_ time...
18:48:13 <elliott> <Gregor> CONSIDER: A machine that allows you to "reorient" yourself relative to the physical and temporal dimensions, so that one of the physical dimensions becomes time, and time is experienced as a physical dimension.
18:48:19 <elliott> I say cool, I mean horrifying.
18:48:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Isn't this just the standard "time changes have a timeline and so on recursively" thing?
18:48:43 <Phantom_Hoover> ANYWAY, you can factor time vs. reality destruction into this.
18:48:53 <oerjan> Vorpal: if you don't move along _their_ time dimension, they'll see a long rod appear and disappear...
18:48:54 <elliott> Well, standard in that I came up with it in about five seconds; maybe I'm just a genius.
18:49:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Has to have recursion, or you can't change the metatimeline properly.
18:49:15 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you can't change the metatimeline, that's the point.
18:49:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And if there's no recursion, it's not 2D. It's just two layers.
18:49:22 <elliott> Two lines, in other words.
18:49:36 <Vorpal> oerjan, I meant if I stand still (relative my own senses) I would still move along my own time axis. Which would be a space axis for everyone else. Right?
18:50:31 <Phantom_Hoover> So destroying reality at a point in time cuts everything further along the time axis out.
18:50:54 <Zwaarddijk> hence, doomsday devices are practical for every serious timetraveler?
18:50:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Destroying time cuts off everything further along the metatime axis.
18:51:02 <Vorpal> oerjan, so then, lets say I "drift" sideways according to what I just said, what would happen if I bump into a wall due to using this switching gadget inside a room.
18:51:05 <oerjan> Vorpal: yes. but if you are not moving, then you are not moving along the dimension that everyone _else_ sees as time, so you would only briefly appear and disappear
18:51:32 <Vorpal> oerjan, I was rather wondering what would happen to me if I hit that wall
18:51:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I feel the same
18:51:54 <oerjan> Vorpal: i don't think physics has a ready-made explanation for this :D
18:52:24 <Vorpal> maybe time would stop for me
18:52:45 <elliott> Gregor: Can you make a simple 3D scene of like a simple room and some sphere walking along it
18:52:50 <elliott> And then do the reorientation and make another video :P
18:53:07 <Vorpal> then this thing could be useful kind of. Put some hot food in the device, next to a wall. Perfectly preserved, and hot food, when you want it!
18:53:24 <Vorpal> of course, it would be in the wrong time for you hm
18:53:25 <elliott> (from the point of a still observer in both spaces)
18:53:29 <elliott> (i.e. still in time for the second)
18:53:35 <Gregor> elliott: That could be part of a series of "training videos" for the device, so you can understand how to comprehend reoriented spacetime >: )
18:53:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Like, you'd turn on the device, there'd be a 2D slice of Vorpal going right across the universe changing constantly so it'd be more like some kind of carrot.
18:53:51 <elliott> Gregor: This is seriously the stuff of nightmares.
18:54:10 <oerjan> you would essentially consist of tachyons during this...
18:54:24 <elliott> Even though you stayed still in time, you'd still be moving in space
18:54:32 <Vorpal> oerjan, wait, aren't they fictional thingies?
18:54:41 <Gregor> Vorpal: They're immeasurable and unprovable.
18:54:43 <oerjan> Vorpal: they are _hypothetical_ thingies
18:54:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No. You'd literally cover an entire plane of the universe.
18:54:53 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
18:54:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: THAT IS SO WEIRD
18:55:10 <Gregor> elliott: If you don't remain reoriented forever, you would cover a limited space.
18:55:15 <Vorpal> elliott, how do you mean?
18:55:28 -!- ZOMGMODULES has joined.
18:55:36 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: hi, we're discussing existential horrors.
18:55:43 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you turn the device on. A second later, you turn it off.
18:55:55 <Gregor> elliott: Presumably the machine will allow you to reorient yourself normally after some amount of time (space) spent reoriented.
18:56:00 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a you-shaped tunnel across a lightsecond of space lasting for a nanosecond.
18:56:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So, a (x|y|z)-second later
18:56:05 <elliott> Rather than a t-second later
18:56:05 <ZOMGMODULES> you do the hokey-pokey and you shake it all about
18:56:08 <elliott> t being the usual time action
18:56:20 <elliott> It would be one Planck time.
18:56:25 <elliott> You're not infinitely thin
18:56:34 <elliott> So yeah, depends on the scale :P
18:56:40 <Phantom_Hoover> No, since it's the breadth of the area of effect over c.
18:56:43 <Gregor> It would be one your-thickness in seconds :P
18:56:47 <Gregor> We need a measure of meters per second.
18:56:48 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: <Gregor> CONSIDER: A machine that allows you to "reorient" yourself relative to the physical and temporal dimensions, so that one of the physical dimensions becomes time, and time is experienced as a physical dimension.
18:56:53 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: It's pretty horrific.
18:57:06 <oerjan> note that a second is a considerable distance if you use the c=1 convention
18:57:07 <elliott> Gregor: Let's just say that 1 second is 1 metre :P
18:57:18 <elliott> That's so totally unjustifiable, but convenient.
18:57:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Multiply times by c for distances, divide distances by c for times.
18:57:32 <elliott> IF WE SAY 1 SECOND IS 1 M WE CAN ACTUALLY MAKE A VIDEO OUT OF THIS
18:57:39 <Gregor> But lightspeed ends up with you in relativity hell ...
18:57:47 <elliott> Relativity Hell, the best kind of hell.
18:57:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, no, because you're dicking around with the fabric of space, not standard physics.
18:58:07 <elliott> I think I'm going to curl up in a ball and cry.
18:58:09 <ZOMGMODULES> so what direction does space move when it's time
18:58:25 <elliott> Let's figure out a standard reorientation.
18:58:28 <Phantom_Hoover> It's basically lightspeed travel for you, teleportation for everyone else.
18:58:33 <elliott> When reoriented, what axis is time?
18:58:38 <elliott> In the normal universe, the time-axis is t.
18:58:45 <elliott> In the reoriented universe, the time-axis is (x|y|z).
18:58:50 <elliott> Let's just pick one for convenience >_<
18:58:53 <Vorpal> one issue. Can one of you tell me where the current x axis points
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18:59:23 <elliott> Now there's a sentiment I can get behind
18:59:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, that's not really Galilean invariance, it's relativity.
18:59:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well it would kind of matter if you are trying to work out which plane you are spread out over as you said above
19:00:22 <Phantom_Hoover> (BONUS OF THE VERSION WITH C AS THE CONVERSION FACTOR: you have FTL travel as a result.)
19:00:34 * Sgeo stabs Phantom_Hoover in the head
19:01:18 <Phantom_Hoover> (The FTL is like FTL in Freefall, though: from your perspective you travel at precisely c.)
19:01:23 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, you said you wanted to draw with your brain, didn't you?
19:03:20 <Gregor> Now that elliott mentioned it, I would like to make an animation of it :P
19:03:33 <elliott> With a raytracer would be ideal :P
19:03:44 <Gregor> But maybe an animation for a 3D (2 physical D + time) universe rather than 4D.
19:03:45 <elliott> ALSO: Colour everything in the room uniquely.
19:03:49 <elliott> Reflect those colours in the reoriented universe.
19:03:55 <elliott> This is unrealistic, but waaay less of a pain to visualise.
19:04:00 <elliott> (In reality, light would... what the fuck WOULD light do?)
19:04:11 <Gregor> elliott: FUCKFUCKFUCKNO
19:05:01 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, since this is Abstract Classical Space, you just magically perceive everything as it is.l
19:05:10 <Vorpal> elliott, as far as I remember, from the view of a photon, time stands still?
19:05:12 <elliott> I WANT TO KNOW WHAT IT WOULD DO IRL
19:05:37 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, IRL we don't actually know how the universe works so you can't, no.
19:05:53 <elliott> I'm just asking how light would move about in such a reorientation.
19:05:54 <Gregor> In the part of real life where you have a Gregor's Spaciotemporal Reorientation Machine
19:06:03 <elliott> i.e. what the fuck shit would look like.
19:06:09 <elliott> Just assume boring non-relativistic universe :P
19:06:15 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, atoms make no sense when flipped, so I have no idea.
19:06:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Assume it's done at the atom level >_<
19:06:37 <elliott> As in, atoms are left intact themselves.
19:06:46 <Gregor> I'm pretty sure it's calculable, but not by our pathetic human minds.
19:06:52 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:06:58 <elliott> (In the same sense that space is continuous)
19:07:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:07:15 <Gregor> I might actually /write/ a photon tracer to generate this scene, just to be able to follow photons in all four dimensions ...
19:07:35 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:07:56 <Gregor> Well, not tonight. OOPSLA deadline tonight :P
19:07:57 <elliott> Gregor: ...you know, this could make an AWESOME game premise.
19:08:05 <elliott> Design landscapes that are only partially navigable in a single orientation.
19:08:11 <elliott> And have full rotations, so it's not just two to pick from.
19:08:19 <elliott> I WANT TO PLAY THIS GAME RIGHT NOW
19:08:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Gregor: WE HAVE TO MAKE IT FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
19:08:41 <elliott> Adanaxis doesn't also rotate your VIEW
19:08:47 <elliott> And also it could be like a PLATFORMER
19:08:52 <elliott> So you could JUMP ... through TIME
19:10:12 <Gregor> Proposition: A game with this premise, but 2D space, just to make it a tidbit less OH GOD WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, or at least to make it more achievable in the short term :P
19:10:57 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: When you've reoriented yourself in it.
19:10:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Uhh, in normal play, the time dimension is shown by... time passing :P
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19:11:07 <oerjan> <elliott> WHAT WOULD LIGHT DOOOOO <-- just use logic and the bible (John 8:12) to reduce this to "What would Jesus dooooo".
19:11:21 <Gregor> elliott: ONE MIND-BOGGLING STEP AT A TIME
19:11:24 <elliott> You're fightin' something and suddenly it reorients and WHAT THE FUCK IS HAPPENING
19:11:35 <elliott> oerjan: logic and the bible, two great tastes that taste great together
19:11:52 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what if someone flies sideways to time for ages and ages.
19:11:57 <elliott> Gregor: Oh god we have to make this. This is an even better idea than Asteroids 2.
19:12:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I DON'T KNOW, WHAT WOULD THAT EVEN IMPLY
19:12:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it implies you have a potentially infinite amount of processing for each interval of game time.
19:12:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Not if time and space are discrete.
19:12:46 <Gregor> On Saturday I will begin work on the engine. It's definitely doable, but not simple :P
19:12:59 <elliott> Oh, you mean, if something kept going in a direction forever?
19:13:07 <elliott> Well, just make the AI not do that X-D
19:13:20 <elliott> For a two-player game, just stop someone dwelling in reoriented-ville for too long.
19:13:24 <elliott> Gaah okay this is hurting my brain.
19:13:29 <elliott> Gregor: Just... do a photon tracer to start with X-D
19:13:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, elliott: this sounds a bit like TRDS for a game?
19:13:43 <elliott> Gregor: Let's figure out how this WORKS before trying to make a game engine that can do it :P
19:14:16 <Phantom_Hoover> What if you reorient your time direction to go backwards.
19:15:06 <oklopol> this concept is so done to death
19:15:16 <elliott> The problem is basically the same problem with every other time travelling game.
19:15:23 <oerjan> once you have backwards time things tend to get at _least_ PSPACE complete
19:15:25 <elliott> If someone (= an AI) goes back in time, you can't show that to someone who's already further on in time.
19:15:34 <elliott> So you have to... shove them back in time somehow.
19:15:59 <oerjan> Vorpal: not for implementing it...
19:16:02 <Phantom_Hoover> DAMMIT WHY DO THESE THINGS ALWAYS HAPPEN THE DAY BEFORE I GO ON HOLIDAY
19:16:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: THINK ABOUT IT IN VENICE
19:16:30 <Vorpal> oerjan, duh, do you think I was serious?
19:16:58 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: omg it is _happening_...
19:17:04 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, if something goes back in time, shouldn't you have showed it the first time? Or it won't be logically consistent
19:17:27 <oerjan> <Vorpal> Perhaps I take myself a bit too seriously!
19:17:35 <oerjan> <Vorpal> oerjan, duh, do you think I was serious?
19:18:03 <oklopol> Vorpal: if you go back in time, you will just be repeating what you already saw yourself do
19:18:23 <Vorpal> oerjan, wait a second... How much of the time the past few years have you *not* realised when I joked?
19:18:34 <elliott> THAT MAKES IT SO MUCH EASIER
19:18:37 <Phantom_Hoover> (And the past, but that's not really all that important.)
19:18:39 <oerjan> Vorpal: everyone knows you never joke, sheesh
19:18:40 <elliott> Can we just talk about this in terms of blocks?
19:18:47 <elliott> One block is one second let's say for now.
19:18:55 <oklopol> so each game is 10 seconds?
19:18:57 <Vorpal> <oklopol> Vorpal: if you go back in time, you will just be repeating what you already saw yourself do <-- I meant if an enemy goes back in time, then the player should have seen that when he arrived at that time originally
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19:19:07 <Vorpal> which would require real world time travel
19:19:27 <Vorpal> elliott, actually, lets just use IOT to implement this
19:19:34 <elliott> Ideally, you should be able to run at one block per second :P
19:19:57 <elliott> Gregor: DO NOT LISTEN TO PH
19:20:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or making the player act in a sort of meta-time
19:20:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, meta time for the player might work, no?
19:21:12 <elliott> IT ONLY LASTED FOR A SECOND
19:21:14 <elliott> BUT THAT SECOND WAS GLORIOUS
19:21:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, of course, you could argue that as well would be a getout clause.
19:21:53 <Vorpal> elliott, if that is download... common residential connections tend to burst a bit at the start sometimes
19:21:54 <elliott> Gregor: So btw, if you ever do something like http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D, I'll rip your soul out
19:22:03 <elliott> Every pre-2011 clog link is now broken.
19:22:09 <elliott> And only accessible through a zip file linked to in the header.
19:22:41 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, rsync reported it transferred a tiny file at 105 MByte/s, which is impossible since it was sent over 100 Mbit ethernet.
19:23:02 <Vorpal> elliott, probably due to NIC buffering
19:24:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Sounds like you need the Glove Box.
19:24:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, might be a bit hard to reach around in it
19:25:17 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:25:25 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:26:12 <elliott> oerjan: wow, you have an identd!
19:27:53 <Gregor> elliott: If it's all database-oriented, then that makes no sense anyway.
19:28:02 <oerjan> well tyrell _is_ a multiuser machine.
19:28:18 <elliott> Gregor: But the URLs still matter :P
19:28:57 <elliott> Gregor: I wonder if it's because clog is early-2000s technology and is running on a machine with a 1 gig disk :P
19:29:10 <elliott> And the logs together are, like, 400 megs!
19:29:15 <elliott> (I figure #haskell is pretty high-traffic)
19:29:34 <Vorpal> elliott, come on. Even my first model ibook (early-2000s) had a whopping 3.2 GB HDD
19:29:45 <elliott> Gregor: btw I'm still doing ch2 stuff, just been "busy" past few days :P
19:30:02 <Gregor> elliott: Perfectly understandable, my typical impatience is tempered by my own deadlines.
19:30:04 <oerjan> 16:44:33: <Phantom_Hoover> OK GUYS I HAVE COME UP WITH MY PRETENTIOUS LATIN MOTTO
19:30:10 <oerjan> 16:44:47: <Phantom_Hoover> CIRCVMDOR IDIOTAM
19:30:31 <Gregor> Does it mean "I'm an idiot"?
19:30:36 <oerjan> oh wait DOR is passive of DO
19:31:21 <Gregor> <Phantom_Hoover> STULTUS EGO
19:32:32 <oerjan> "i am given around, an idiot"?
19:33:44 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, hmm, I mustn't have been thorough enough in checking which of the 15 or so words I found was equivalent to "surround".
19:34:18 <oerjan> actually i'm looking up circumdo now
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19:34:51 <Gregor> Stultus ego ergo amo. <-- I am now officially a dramatic poet. Moneys plz kthx.
19:35:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:35:10 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i vaguely recall it should be IDIOTIS
19:35:24 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, it's idiota, so I assumed it was first declension.
19:35:27 <oerjan> (ablative for the changed subject of a passive noun)
19:35:38 <elliott> i'm an idiot so i love people?
19:35:53 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it may well be but it's not supposed to be accusative
19:36:04 <oerjan> iirc, it's been a long time
19:36:27 <oerjan> note how it's not "I am surrounded idiots" in english either
19:36:49 <Gregor> It is if you just are surrounded idiots.
19:36:59 <Gregor> I, an individual, am a group of idiots who are surrounded.
19:36:59 <oerjan> Gregor: SOMEWHAT UNLIKELY
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19:37:33 <Vorpal> Latin grammar looks HIGHLY complicated
19:38:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the discussion above reminds me of that scene in Life of Brian...
19:38:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the whole "word order doesn't indicate structure" thing...
19:38:39 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: circumdo apparently also can mean surround
19:42:38 <Gregor> Google sez: "KNOW-NOTHING CIRCVUMVENIOR"
19:43:08 <elliott> 19:33, 8 April 2011 Wizard191 (talk | contribs) marked Flash butt welding patrolled (automatic)
19:43:10 <Gregor> Geeze Phantom_Hoover, you're such a know-nothing circumvenior.
19:45:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you need to find out what would be the idiomatic way to say it
19:47:06 * elliott tries to get Google to translate <I came_1, I saw, I came_2.> to Latin correctly
19:48:17 <Gregor> oerjan: You know what they are X-P
19:48:44 <oerjan> well I came_1 is "veni" as usual, i guess.
19:49:01 <elliott> Yeah, but all the things I can think of for _2 are passed through untranslated :P
19:49:14 <elliott> Weird, WordNet lacks the verb form of _2 but has the relevantnoun.
19:49:32 <elliott> Unless it's just stated so euphemistically that I can't find it when scanning.
19:49:42 <Gregor> elliott: It passes through "orgasm" as something that translates back as something like "had joy" :(
19:49:45 <elliott> But then the noun definition uses "spermatozoa", so I don't expect so.
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19:50:22 <elliott> oerjan: what's the past tense of iaculemur?
19:50:26 <elliott> that might be the noun ejaculate, I suppose
19:50:58 <Gregor> elliott: Google suggests that it's literally "throw"
19:51:21 <Gregor> The Romans, they did not speak of such things :P
19:51:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Figure it out or I'll have to trawl through and extensively quote dirty Latin poetry.
19:51:54 <elliott> Gregor: Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo.
19:52:21 <elliott> Unfortunately that poem does not mention orgasming at all.
19:52:35 <oerjan> is iaculemur actually a word?
19:53:04 <elliott> Gregor: "I will sodomize you and face-fuck you"
19:53:15 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catullus_16
19:53:26 <Gregor> elliott: Google sez "I'll bugger you and stuff your gobs", which is right up 'til that 'and' :P
19:53:31 <elliott> Gregor: Best translation ever.
19:54:03 <oerjan> eiaculo is italian, but i'm not sure if it is latin...
19:54:16 <elliott> "This remarkable poem contains a cogent piece of literary criticism, bracketed between a shocking first and last line which you can translate for youself. (It's not that I shrink from obscenity, but you will have to substitute some substitute phrases in English to get the meaning right.) "
19:54:38 <elliott> not in boys, but in those hairy
19:54:38 <elliott> guys who have difficulty moving their limbs.
19:54:47 <elliott> "difficulty moving my limb": best euphemism ever
19:54:59 <elliott> http://rudy.negenborn.net/catullus/text2/e16.htm
19:55:00 <elliott> "I don't say in boys but in those hairy
19:55:00 <elliott> Victims of lumbar sclerosis."
19:55:05 <elliott> WORST TRANSLATION OF THAT LINE EVER
19:55:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Some of his mopier poems are in the Standard Grade Latin exam.
19:55:35 <Vorpal> elliott, you know how dwarf fortress does detailed combat reports? I found (I finally think I figured out the utterly complex military system) that it does the same for training (in case of sparring).
19:56:06 <elliott> I found this! http://is-is.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2334197912&topic=3371
19:56:07 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, "pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo" is now my favourite Latin phrase.
19:56:09 <elliott> SOMEONE TRANSLATE IT TO LATIN
19:56:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Is it your new motto?
19:56:24 <elliott> HOOVER HEAVY INDUSTRIES - "PEDICABO" EGO VOS ET IRRUMABO
19:56:34 <elliott> <elliott> I found this! http://is-is.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2334197912&topic=3371
19:56:38 <elliott> GET TRANSLATING THE WORST THING EVER PEOPLE
19:56:44 <elliott> Also enjoy the Icelandic interface
19:56:49 <elliott> I don't know why Google found it with the Icelandic interface
19:57:36 <elliott> Someone translate came(v.) to Latin.
19:57:39 <Vorpal> "The Axe Lord hacks The militia captain in the left hand with her ≡steel battle axe≡, lightly tapping the target!" <-- this sounds a bit... strange.
19:58:17 <Vorpal> (come on, why don't they use the training weapons which made..., yes df has separate training weapons)
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19:59:28 <oerjan> <elliott> Someone translate came(v.) to Latin. <-- wiktionary claims a translation of cum -> eiaculare, but the latter has no latin in its page
20:00:13 <oerjan> i suppose we could just assume it works as an ordinary -a verb, in which case it's eiaculavi
20:00:34 <elliott> "What's the Latin for came (past tense of verb, i.e. to ejaculate)?"
20:00:54 <Gregor> I would rephrase it to put the proper form first :P
20:01:10 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, erm, hang on, I'm trying to pluralise pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo.
20:01:11 <Gregor> I'm writing awesome games in my head!
20:01:14 <elliott> Gregor: I WANT to shock them half-way through!
20:01:43 <elliott> Gregor: The very best entry in the REORIENT series will be the one where we take it to 4D.
20:01:55 <Gregor> elliott: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
20:02:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: STOP RUINING IT
20:02:14 <Gregor> elliott: First goal: 2D+T, only X and T are reorientable, and only at 90
20:02:26 <elliott> Gregor: No, first goal: 3D+T, photon tracer :P
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20:02:40 <elliott> I don't think any of us understand this nearly enough to design a game yet X-D
20:02:41 <Gregor> elliott: That's, I think, even more of a PITA >_>
20:02:42 <oerjan> elliott: my best guess so far is "eiaculavi", anyhow
20:02:46 <Gregor> elliott: Err, that's true.
20:02:49 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, but it will be useful throughout :P
20:03:12 <Phantom_Hoover> <Gregor> elliott: First goal: 2D+T, only X and T are reorientable, and only at 90°
20:03:25 <elliott> Indeed no, photon tracer :P
20:04:03 <oerjan> elliott: also that's using the same tense as veni and vidi from the other famous quotation, latin has a bit of a different division between the past tenses
20:04:11 <elliott> So what is sex in Latin? We could check on Vicipædia.
20:04:24 <oerjan> so that's actually perfect tense
20:04:32 <elliott> It's actually pronounced "Wikipedia" X-D
20:04:49 <elliott> oerjan: So "Veni, vidi, eiaculavi"?
20:05:15 <oklopol> i think eiaculavi is the first one
20:05:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Really, Catullus 16 is not very obscene :P
20:06:10 <oklopol> one of my guitar strings broke :(
20:06:23 <elliott> "Oh noes, you're going to have sex with me unconsensually!!!!!"
20:06:34 <elliott> There's not even any disembowelment.
20:06:42 <oerjan> it's probably the ancient latin equivalent of "fuck you assholes"
20:06:56 <elliott> <bAndie9100> elliott, do you mean 'venio 4' ?
20:06:59 <elliott> Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
20:07:00 <oerjan> elliott: i was trying to agree with you here
20:07:18 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, possible that Latin had the double meaning as well.
20:07:35 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: darn how boring :D
20:07:37 <Gregor> AFAIK that's a recent phenomenon.
20:07:55 <elliott> I'm asking the question anyway, to serve as a... discrete... way of mentioning that I meant the other kind. :P
20:08:14 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Royal_Bank_of_Canada&diff=prev&oldid=423066518
20:08:22 <elliott> <elliott> bAndie9100: ah, does Latin have the same double-meaning?
20:08:22 <elliott> <bAndie9100> double meaning? what do you count?
20:08:24 <oerjan> yeah venio is 4th conjugation
20:08:25 <elliott> oerjan: uhh write my response for me
20:08:46 <elliott> I DID include "to ejaculate" in my original message :P
20:09:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: YOU'RE SO EMBARRASSING
20:09:16 <elliott> Find some way to pretend we didn't come from the same place.
20:09:27 <elliott> oerjan: mommy, PH is being awfully direct to strangers.
20:09:38 <Gregor> "EJACULATE, ORGASM, CUM! Pedicabo ergo SOMETHING!"
20:10:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: YOU SHUT THE POOR INNOCENT UP
20:10:20 <elliott> HE'S GOING TO KILL US FOR SHITTING ON HIS BEAUTIFUL LANGUAGE
20:10:40 <oerjan> elliott: tell him catullus already did that
20:10:53 <elliott> this is like going into #mozart
20:11:00 <elliott> does anyone have a performance of Leck mich im Arsch
20:11:46 <elliott> oerjan: if you join, #esotericers will have a critical mass in ##latin, and I won't be so scared!
20:11:53 <elliott> "I'll have you know I'm an OPERATOR in #esoteric!"
20:11:57 <elliott> "HOW DARE YOU SPEAK TO ME LIKE THAT'
20:12:03 -!- augur has joined.
20:12:25 <oerjan> elliott: but then _i_ would feel embarassed
20:12:39 <elliott> Wikipedia just gave me THE BEST BAND NAME: The Angry Young Popes
20:12:44 <elliott> Keep The Angry Young Popes are the best rock band in the world right now. – Superbestfan 02:02, 2 February 2002 (UTC)"
20:12:57 <oerjan> now what's _that_ in latin
20:12:57 <elliott> oerjan: just join and talk about something that _isn't_ coming
20:13:14 <oerjan> ...i don't know enough latin to converse on that channel...
20:13:24 <elliott> oerjan: You don't have to talk IN Latin X-D
20:13:33 <oerjan> hm iratus sounds right
20:13:48 <elliott> oerjan: join and ask what "Angry young popes" is in Latin
20:14:00 <elliott> we get an answer, you save embarrassment!
20:14:08 <elliott> 19:21, 8 April 2011 Alexf (talk | contribs) blocked Poopfriedrice (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite ({{uw-uhblock}})
20:14:18 <oerjan> Irati juvenes papae maybe...
20:15:17 <oerjan> i'm not sure if i should use feminine suffixes because papa is -a stem or not because it's definitely a masculine referent but i lean toward the latter
20:16:21 <oerjan> ah wiktionary says masculine
20:17:20 <oerjan> Irati iuvenes papae, then.
20:17:53 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:18:26 -!- elliott has joined.
20:18:51 <oerjan> (puer means boy, not young)
20:19:50 -!- elliott has set topic: An unusually not mephitic forum that catches sufficiently "Hello world. Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity." | yoob: http://catseye.tc/lab/yoob/applet.html | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Some logs also available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
20:21:20 <elliott> omg yes translate our four mottos into latin
20:21:24 <elliott> Catch sufficiently hello world.
20:21:27 <elliott> An unusually not mephitic forum.
20:21:30 <elliott> Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity.
20:21:48 <oerjan> CARPE SUFFICIENTER AVE MUNDUS
20:21:50 <elliott> "capite satis salve mundi'?
20:22:00 <elliott> satis is nicer, is that not valid there?
20:22:23 <elliott> "Non solita mephitic forum." ;; well, someone has to translate mephitic :-D
20:22:35 <elliott> I guess "miasmic" would be the best path
20:22:44 <elliott> "Non noxia solita forum."?
20:22:59 <elliott> "Libenter clausum in soliditatem matrix" ;; this is probably so wrong
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20:23:24 <oerjan> elliott: looks like satis could work
20:23:28 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
20:23:40 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:23:42 <elliott> oerjan: WELL START TRANSLATING THE MATRIX OF SOLIDITY LINE THEN ;D
20:23:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:23:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
20:24:00 <oerjan> yeah munde says wiktionary
20:24:22 <oerjan> i never said i was good at latin vocabulary did i...
20:24:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: YOU HELP TOO
20:25:20 <oerjan> mephitic is already greco-latin, is it not?
20:25:42 <elliott> mephitic or mephitical [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]. —adj. 1. poisonous; foul. 2. foul-smelling; putrid. [C17: from Late Latin mephīticus ...
20:25:51 <elliott> so, what's the adjective form of mephiticus
20:26:01 <cpressey> Vorpal: you're a language. http://code.google.com/p/vorpalcode/
20:26:27 <oerjan> but to use with forum you should probably have -um
20:26:32 <elliott> http://www.joystiq.com/2011/01/20/xbox-live-indie-gems-vorpal/ also a bullet hell game
20:27:25 <cpressey> Vorpal: your reference implementation is coded in C++
20:27:32 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VORPAL
20:27:43 -!- FireFly has joined.
20:28:01 <cpressey> copyright 2008 - University of Canterbury
20:28:01 <cpressey> all rights reserved - do not distribute
20:28:13 <elliott> Arvid Norlander likes to show people his "Vorpal blade" if you catch my drift
20:28:14 <oerjan> forum insolite non mephiticum
20:28:26 <elliott> http://vorpal.livejournal.com/878513.html ;; picture of vorpal
20:28:49 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:29:11 -!- augur has joined.
20:29:14 <elliott> http://vorpal.livejournal.com/profile
20:29:21 <elliott> I'm gay. I love looking at guys, but I'm not obsessed with that fact (it's just one aspect of my personality) and while a lot of my friends are gay, I'm not really part of the "gay community".
20:29:21 <elliott> I love to flirt with cute boys. It's fun!
20:29:21 <elliott> I've been married to my hubby bonoboboy (Jeff) since May 2004, and no, it's not for the gay health insurance :D.
20:29:31 <elliott> was gonna go on about how Vorpal was in denial and all
20:29:46 <elliott> it should be illegal to write things that my brain could insert the word "not" in
20:29:57 <Gregor> I see no denial there :P
20:30:10 <elliott> Gregor: I thought it said "I'm *not* gay" :P
20:30:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:30:35 <cpressey> Sgeo: please start being fascinated by the Vorpal language
20:30:45 <Sgeo> What's the Vorpal language?
20:31:02 <Gregor> "I'm not gay, but I love staring at guys. I'm not gay, but I love flirting with cute boys ... for fun! I'm not gay, but I've been married to Jeff for seven years (for the insurance)."
20:31:04 <cpressey> Sgeo: http://code.google.com/p/vorpalcode/
20:31:16 <elliott> cpressey: sgeo started liking falcon a while back
20:31:29 <elliott> Gregor: "I'm not gay, but I'm a Republican!"
20:31:58 <Sgeo> Hey, it's fully possible for a guy to like guys and not be gay!
20:32:19 <elliott> really? i don't recall telling you
20:32:20 <cpressey> and maude is a girl. this is eminently logical
20:32:23 <elliott> i guess you sensed it through the aether
20:32:45 <Sgeo> I vaguely recall cpressey being here
20:32:46 <oerjan> bonoboboy _certainly_ doesn't sound gay either...
20:33:24 * Sgeo WTFs at Vorpalcode
20:33:45 <Sgeo> It lists goals... but um...none of those tell me what the damn thing actually is
20:34:20 <Sgeo> I can vaguely guess that it's for a language.. but have only a vague understanding of what that language is supposed to be like
20:34:29 <Sgeo> Event-driven OO
20:34:56 <Sgeo> "Vorpal is a small scripting language written in C++"
20:35:02 <oerjan> libenter is an adverb not a verb...
20:35:23 <cpressey> woo, i ran the "memoized fibonacci" example
20:35:51 <cpressey> Sgeo: it feels like they're trying to do "Lua, but in C++"
20:36:03 <Gregor> Ohheywait, I can make it a raytracer instead of a photon tracer so long as I run time backwards.
20:36:22 <cpressey> Sgeo: BECAUSE WORLD NEEDS MORE LANGUAGES
20:36:24 <Gregor> That ENORMOUSLY simplifies the problem.
20:37:13 <cpressey> how do u open a pdf in leegnux
20:37:25 <Gregor> xdg-open <virtually any file you can imagine>
20:37:34 <elliott> `addquote <Gregor> Ohheywait, I can make it a raytracer instead of a photon tracer so long as I run time backwards.
20:37:37 <HackEgo> 354) <Gregor> Ohheywait, I can make it a raytracer instead of a photon tracer so long as I run time backwards.
20:37:43 <elliott> I hope that stripped out the control chars.
20:38:11 <Gregor> cpressey: Nobody seems to know about xdg-open for some reason :(
20:38:23 <elliott> it's not as good as os x open though
20:38:29 <Vorpal> <elliott> Arvid Norlander likes to show people his "Vorpal blade" if you catch my drift <-- XD
20:38:36 <elliott> vorpal reminds me more of plof
20:38:42 <cpressey> first 4 words in manual: "Vorpal is a embeddable
20:38:56 <Gregor> cpressey: ENGLISH FAIL
20:39:04 * Sgeo wants to aembed something
20:39:15 <cpressey> Gregor: from the UNIVERSITY OF CANTERBURY
20:39:30 <Gregor> cpressey: Canterbury, Saudi Arabia
20:39:39 <Vorpal> cpressey, does that mean like lua? Or like bare bone C code? Very different meaning of embed there
20:40:06 <cpressey> sorry, i keep dropping my closequotes
20:40:45 <cpressey> also like lua in that their interpreter is small (ca. 3KLoc)... but it's in C++
20:40:58 <Vorpal> cpressey, "no operator precedence" works well in prefix/postfix (of course), but would be a PITA in infix
20:41:28 <Gregor> Smalltalk has no operator precedence.
20:41:30 <cpressey> if you take away my operator precedence, just give me RPN or S-expression instead
20:41:32 <Vorpal> cpressey, err "agreeds"?
20:41:36 <Gregor> IIRC, Haskell has no operator precedence.
20:41:48 <elliott> it has a full precedence system
20:42:03 <Vorpal> Gregor, pretty sure you don't need to write (5 * 4) + 2 in haskell...
20:42:24 <cpressey> er... can you change the precedence of built-in operators in haskell?
20:42:34 <cpressey> i know you can define it for ones you define
20:42:59 <Gregor> What was I thinking about, not Haskell ...
20:43:16 <Gregor> Well, anyway, in Smalltalk operators certainly have no precedence.
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20:43:31 <elliott> in J, everything is right-associative :D
20:43:55 <Vorpal> elliott, how do you wrote 2+5*4 in smalltalk then?
20:44:10 <Gregor> I think with Haskell I was thinking about "custom" operators maybe? Can't you name functions starting with symbols, then you don't need backticks to make them act as operators?
20:44:15 <Gregor> Surely those are all the same precedence?
20:44:17 <oklopol> in j, you write it as 2+5*4
20:44:43 <cpressey> Gregor: you can define the precedence of those when you define them
20:44:59 <Vorpal> Gregor, what is so surprising about that?
20:45:01 <cpressey> i just remember "infixr" being a keyword
20:45:12 <Gregor> Vorpal: Nothing, in fact Plof can do that too, but still, *mind blown* :P
20:45:41 <cpressey> All of Vorpal's design goals boil down to "it's written in C++"
20:45:55 <Vorpal> cpressey, ouch. Well I have nothing to do with that language.
20:45:57 <cpressey> distinguishing-language-from-implementation fail
20:46:05 <oklopol> Gregor: it blows my mind that that blows your mind
20:46:26 <Gregor> Haskell is pure. Defining precedence order in a pure language without order of code loading mattering sounds like a complicated business, unless precedence is just some arbitrary integer.
20:46:44 <Gregor> And if it's an arbitrary integer, then that means there's an implicit dependent type system that affects the semantic behavior of the code.
20:46:58 <oklopol> it doesn't sound at all complicated
20:47:11 <oklopol> maybe you're just very simple
20:47:47 <elliott> <Gregor> Haskell is pure. Defining precedence order in a pure language without order of code loading mattering sounds like a complicated business, unless precedence is just some arbitrary integer.
20:47:52 <elliott> It's an arbitrary integer.
20:47:53 <oklopol> what do you mean arbitrary integer, like calculated at runtime? :D
20:47:58 <elliott> And your line about "dependent type system" is incoherent.
20:48:08 <oklopol> hey guess what language does that stuff all the time: J
20:48:11 <elliott> -- declares (+) to be left-associative, precedence 8
20:48:26 <elliott> <Gregor> I think with Haskell I was thinking about "custom" operators maybe? Can't you name functions starting with symbols, then you don't need backticks to make them act as operators?
20:48:26 <elliott> <Gregor> Surely those are all the same precedence?
20:48:28 <Vorpal> elliott, wait a second, don't you need () around that + ?
20:48:33 <elliott> all operators are that in Haskell, nothing "custom" about them
20:48:57 <Gregor> elliott: infixl is a declaration, right, not an expression?
20:49:05 <Gregor> Erm, hence "declares" X-D
20:49:10 <elliott> Just like module declarations, class declarations, instance declarations, type signatures, ...
20:49:13 <Vorpal> elliott, be careful, so you don't blow Gregor's mind so far he can't find it again
20:49:16 <elliott> And the integer has to be a literal, obviously :P
20:49:23 <elliott> I think it's 0-9 or something.
20:49:33 <Vorpal> elliott, that's a pretty small range
20:50:19 <elliott> Gregor: Do you find it... simple again? :P
20:50:31 <elliott> Gregor: Remember that all imports are processed first thing.
20:50:45 <elliott> So whenever it's looking at code, Haskell knows all the signatures, fixities, classes, etc. in the current scope.
20:51:03 <elliott> And it processes the fixities before it looks at function bodies, IIRC.
20:51:28 <cpressey> Vorpal: Vorpal (the language) uses some ideas I had, but not exactly
20:51:47 <elliott> watch as i drive cpressey away
20:51:53 <Vorpal> cpressey, oh? I thought the only idea it had was being written in C++?
20:52:14 <oklopol> maybe cpressey once had the idea of writing something in C++
20:52:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I thought it was "BGP" that drove him away
20:52:49 <Vorpal> elliott, what is "apex"?
20:53:03 <Gregor> elliott: Right, so now the way that other code PARSES depends on a declaration.
20:53:25 <Vorpal> elliott, googling for it, it is everything from car rental in NZ to a night club in Washington...
20:53:29 <elliott> Gregor: Not really; it parses it into what's basically ([(Expr,Op)],Expr), IIRC
20:53:33 <elliott> And then sorts that out later.
20:53:41 <elliott> It's not really that complicated *shrug*
20:53:43 <elliott> And the benefits are obvious.
20:53:44 <oklopol> Gregor: how is that problematic?
20:53:50 <Gregor> It's not problematic, it's /surprising/.
20:54:10 <cpressey> Vorpal: the only design goals they state have to do with C++. for the design of the actual language, they chose things, without regard to any goal, I guess
20:54:11 <oklopol> not really, cise had a much more complicated parsing and it's even purer than haskell
20:54:18 <oerjan> <cpressey> er... can you change the precedence of built-in operators in haskell? <-- you can introduce a new operator with the same name and any precedence you want, as long as you hide the original one when importing.
20:54:19 <elliott> Gregor: Moar Haskell impurity: With Template Haskell, the syntactical structure of some code can depend on IO at compile time!!! 0mg!!!
20:54:25 <Vorpal> cpressey, okay, what sort of idea?
20:54:26 <oklopol> mainly because it doesn't exist.
20:54:28 <cpressey> the main thing is the "semi-implicit self" -- you say .foo to refer to a foo on self
20:54:40 <Vorpal> oklopol, can you replace (+) then?
20:54:44 <cpressey> but i discarded that after thinking about it for a while anyway :)
20:55:10 <elliott> come on get driven away geez
20:55:13 <Gregor> cpressey: That's not even semi-implicit, that's just having the null string as a contextual replacement for "this" :P
20:55:14 <cpressey> but it's not *that* bad an idea, if you don't like to declare locals
20:55:14 <Vorpal> elliott, what the heck is "apex"?
20:55:55 <cpressey> Gregor: true. Can I say "unobtrusive"? it's about the shortest explicit self you could have :)
20:56:13 <Vorpal> cpressey, there is a way to do shorter
20:56:16 <cpressey> maybe a convention like, lowercase -> local, uppercase -> member on self
20:56:31 * Sgeo watches dance-sorts
20:56:50 <Vorpal> cpressey, either what you just said, or having to do global:foo and local:foo and just foo for self
20:56:53 <elliott> <cpressey> maybe a convention like, lowercase -> local, uppercase -> member on self
20:56:56 <Vorpal> but that would be silly
20:57:02 <elliott> @foo == omg instance variable
20:57:02 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: do faq ft todo yow
20:57:31 <cpressey> elliott: but can you also say self@foo ?
20:57:42 <elliott> cpressey: all instance variables are private
20:58:07 <elliott> (it could have syntax to do that, but it'd always have "self" in front, so what's the point)
20:58:46 <elliott> not really :) I mean, who would write "self.foo" if you have ".foo"?
20:59:04 <cpressey> who would write "let in 3" in haskell?
20:59:21 <Vorpal> cpressey, gah these highlights are getting annoying XD
20:59:28 <oerjan> <Gregor> Haskell is pure. Defining precedence order in a pure language without order of code loading mattering sounds like a complicated business [...] <-- you're actually correct, the haskell 98 standard defined things with precedence intertwined with parsing and this has unforeseen interactions (e.g. with indentation sensitivity) so that no compiler actually implements it properly. the latest revision has removed this wart by making precedence a stri
20:59:34 <Vorpal> elliott, almost as bad as in #nethack (the Vorpal Sword)
20:59:37 <cpressey> elliott: you keep saying that word.
20:59:51 <Vorpal> elliott, WHAT IS APEX?
20:59:58 <elliott> cpressey: wow, you've managed to blank your mind already
21:00:01 <Vorpal> elliott, WHAT IS APEX?
21:00:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:00:32 <Vorpal> oerjan, that got cut off
21:00:39 <Vorpal> oerjan, "by making precedence a stri"
21:01:36 <Vorpal> elliott, WHAT IS APEX?
21:03:18 <cpressey> Vorpal: I will call the language "Vor'pal" hereinafter for your benefit. btw, I have to admire its design a little bit -- it's regular, if nothing else. But I'd have to reimplement it in a language that isn't crap before I'd feel alright playing with it.
21:03:23 <oerjan> <cpressey> who would write "let in 3" in haskell? <-- i suppose they allowed empty let blocks for easier automatic code generation or something
21:04:03 <oerjan> oh cutoff, [...] post-rest-of-parsing issue.
21:04:15 <elliott> cpressey: reimplement it in Vorpal!
21:04:16 <cpressey> does some bot here speak scheme?
21:04:22 <elliott> oerjan: "precedence a str"
21:04:24 <Vorpal> cpressey, I think some languages uses ' to mark a click sound. Please pronounce it that way if possible.
21:04:35 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:05:03 <cpressey> sudo apt-get install mit-scheme ::: After this operation, 19.8MB of additional disk space will be used.
21:05:21 <cpressey> actually I have racket installed
21:05:24 <oerjan> (technically, the latest revision just settles on what the compilers already do)
21:05:30 <elliott> cpressey: you said *scheme* :)
21:05:46 <Vorpal> oerjan, you managed to get confused over WHERE the cut off was
21:05:47 <elliott> cpressey: scheme48 is also good
21:05:48 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `*'
21:05:55 <elliott> cpressey: dude, that starts in racket mode
21:05:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, it was at "precedence a str" as elliott said
21:06:01 <elliott> that's nothing to do with scheme
21:06:11 <cpressey> elliott: oh, so you think scheme will error on that?
21:06:24 <oerjan> <Vorpal> oerjan, "by making precedence a stri" <-- bah elliott made me think it cut off somewhere else... "making precedence a strictly post-rest-of-parsing issue."
21:06:27 <elliott> cpressey: Racket errors out on set-car!; I would not be surprised.
21:07:15 <Vorpal> oerjan, you need a better client. One which splits lines
21:07:33 <elliott> library syntax: (let <bindings> <body>)
21:07:33 <elliott> Syntax: <Bindings> should have the form
21:07:33 <elliott> ((<variable1> <init1>) ...),
21:07:33 <elliott> where each <init> is an expression, and <body> should be a sequence of one or more expressions. It is an error for a <variable> to appear more than once in the list of variables being bound.
21:07:44 <elliott> I'd have to look up the definition of ...
21:09:58 <oerjan> Gregor: one more thing, functions put in backticks can also have their precedence declared, the canonical examples being `div` and `mod` (same fixity as /)
21:10:42 -!- cheater99 has joined.
21:11:19 <oklopol> you didn't know that? why would you ever assume anything else?
21:11:35 <Vorpal> elliott, btw did you know in df, you can make dwarfs engrave walls and floors to increase the value of a room? It generates a procedural description of the engraving based on the world history. Masterful engravings will be entered in history. Sometimes you can get thing like an engraving depicting another engraving, depicting a third engraving XD
21:11:59 <elliott> oklopol: because `` feels like a magical operator-making thing
21:12:21 <oklopol> i guess it has a magical feel to it
21:12:38 <cpressey> everything is magical to you people
21:13:33 <oerjan> > let (+) = 3; f = (Prelude.+) in (+) `f` (+)
21:14:04 <oerjan> they're almost completely interchangabel
21:15:16 <cpressey> i think i have another pixley-like language which is different
21:15:29 <elliott> a inherited bs fixities and things
21:15:38 <elliott> cpressey: i was trying to beat pixley's size
21:15:48 <elliott> that is, smallest self-interp subset of shceme
21:16:11 <cpressey> there's a reason it defines cadr, for example :)
21:16:27 <cpressey> you'd think, oh, you can just do that with car and cdr
21:16:49 <cpressey> but then you see how many times the self-interpreter uses cadr...
21:17:07 <cpressey> but i don't think there's a competition
21:17:36 <lambdabot> forall (a :: * -> * -> *) b c d. (Arrow a) => a b c -> a (b, d) (c, d)
21:17:45 <cpressey> but my new language isn't a scheme subset, its forms are just kind of similar to pixley's
21:18:38 <elliott> cpressey: well *I* was competing :)
21:20:25 <oerjan> cadr is something of a symptom of not having short pattern matching like haskell
21:21:33 <dbc> Ha, I read "I was trying to beat pixley's size" as "I was trying to beat pixley's wife"
21:21:50 <elliott> dbc: oh god do you guys read this thing all the time
21:22:03 <elliott> Deewiant: fizzie: You guys are talking about that COMPETITION
21:22:24 <dbc> No, usually only when I notice that I've been mentioned recently.
21:22:26 <fizzie> Deewiant: I guess I can swipe it in, the tournament's going to take ages(tm) anyway since I'm running them on kosh.
21:23:29 <dbc> Yes yes, fine tradition of Pazuzu, Hastur, etc., uh huh
21:23:54 <oerjan> a bit hard on the pronunciation though
21:24:48 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yeah, well... you're not on the course channel, you haven't heard the latest kosh troubles. The silly thing has a nproc soft/hard limit of 128/256 (from /etc/security/limits.conf), and since that thing on Linux counts threads, and the OpenJDK VM has all kinds of silly internal garbage-collection threads 'n such, I can manage to run a total of two (2) simultaneous games at the moment.
21:25:18 <cpressey> oh, and I forgot I had chibi-scheme installed, too:
21:25:20 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `*'
21:25:39 <Deewiant> fizzie: Oh right, I meant to join that around now.
21:25:56 <Deewiant> fizzie: Do you need to use OpenJDK? :-P
21:26:21 <fizzie> Deewiant: I'm hoping next week someone's going to relax those limits for me a bit. They already threw away the 20 GB address space hard-ulimit which caused plain "java" to not work (but which didn't affect me any, since java -Xmx256M runs with no problems with the 20G address space limit in place, and it's per-process, not per-user); then I guess they skipped out early for some Friday celebrations, so I haven't gotten any replies to my "excuse me but it's this
21:26:21 <fizzie> other limit that's the problem" emails.
21:26:50 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's either that, Sun's runtime which is probably pretty much identical, or some sort of gcj-driven thing... anyway, I already announcered OpenJDK as the "official" platform a while ago.
21:27:25 <elliott> gcj sounds like a good idea
21:27:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: There's an on-channel thing that announces when games start/end, incidentally. But you're probably going to have to wait a while until you see any announcements. :p
21:27:49 <elliott> WHICH CHANNEL WHICH CHANNEL ZOMGGGG
21:27:57 <Deewiant> fizzie: Yeah, that was kind of why I was intending to join
21:28:04 <Deewiant> Statistics for the win and all that.
21:28:12 <fizzie> elliott: It's on the course page in our courseware bortal site, you can find it there.
21:28:19 <fizzie> (It's also in the ircnet side of the fence.)
21:28:59 <fizzie> (Away some momentsies.)
21:29:36 <elliott> I do not appear to bea ble to log on to this IRC NET
21:31:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:31:28 <dbc> I heard Richard Stallman talk yesterday. I agree with him but he definitely comes off as an ideologue. I kept thinking he would be more persuasive if he were more nuanced. Dunno.
21:31:29 <elliott> Deewiant: What's the channel called?
21:31:52 <elliott> dbc: rms' lack of nuance is the reason for both his fame and status as a laughing stock :P
21:32:08 <dbc> (I mean, I knew he came off as an ideologue from reading his numerous things online, I just didn't know if he'd be the same in person)
21:32:16 <dbc> (answer: yes)
21:32:47 <elliott> dbc: IIRC he has like three speeches that he's given repeatedly for the past N years :P
21:34:16 <oklopol> is one of them called free the software
21:34:27 <oklopol> because i saw that on youtube
21:34:28 <elliott> JOIN US NOW AND SHARE THE SOFTWARE
21:34:33 <elliott> YOU'LL BE FREE, HACKERS, YOU'LL BE FREEEEEE
21:34:50 <cpressey> IF YOU AGREE WITH THE IDEOLOGUE THEN YOU MUST AGREE WITH THE IDEOLOGUE
21:34:51 <dbc> At the end he was talking about what the public schools need to do to respect the kids's freedom and teach them to value their own freedom and help them grow up to be good citizens. And I was wondering where he got the idea that the schools were vaguely interested in doing any of those things.
21:35:40 <dbc> He should read some John Gatto or something.
21:35:51 <Phantom_Hoover> dbc, I heard he has been known to pick his toes during interviews.
21:36:23 <elliott> There is videographic evidence of this.
21:37:09 <oklopol> well i occasionally suck on my toes
21:37:23 <dbc> (anyone want to guess what he thinks the schools should do?)
21:37:59 <elliott> dbc: put them through extreme mental and physical torture
21:38:07 <cpressey> hah, I finally found Racket's R5RS intepreter: 'plt-r5rs'
21:38:14 <dbc> five seconds left.
21:38:25 <dbc> They should use free software and only free software.
21:38:35 <dbc> No, Stallman :PPP
21:38:49 <oklopol> dbc: maybe even FORCE them to use only free softwar?
21:38:54 <elliott> i'm actually grinning after a :D
21:39:02 <oklopol> that would teach them freedom whether they like it or not
21:39:05 <elliott> it warms my heart that there are people as pure and stupid as rms in the world :)
21:39:10 <Gregor> dbc: ... where (region) are you?
21:39:13 <elliott> SHUT UP! IT'S FOR YOUR FREEDOM!
21:39:15 <oklopol> and what do those little retards know anyway
21:39:19 <dbc> Portland Oregon USA.
21:39:25 <elliott> "But I don't *want* any freedom!" "YOU DON'T HAVE ANY CHOICE!"
21:39:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:39:43 <Gregor> A Portland friend of mine told me that a friend of HIS had arranged for RMS to come to PSU :P
21:39:54 <elliott> Gregor: SO WE KNOW WHO TO BLAME
21:40:02 <Gregor> Yes, a friend of a friend of mine!
21:40:20 <elliott> So reduce the stack a bit, and: you.
21:42:49 <cpressey> There's a plt-r6rs too, but it... doesn't have... a REPL.
21:42:50 <cpressey> cpressey@pressey:~/checkout$ plt-r6rs test.scm
21:42:50 <cpressey> test.scm:1:0: top-level-program: expected an `import' declaration, found something else in: (display (let* () 5))
21:43:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:45:00 <elliott> r6rs specifically forbids REPLs, IIRC
21:45:21 <cpressey> elliott: I just wanted to see if empty let bindings was kosher there.
21:47:30 <cpressey> Interactions disabled: r6rs does not support a REPL (no #%top-interaction)
21:47:42 <cpressey> I stand by my observation that Scheme is dead.
21:47:48 <elliott> coppro: the entire semantics are defined in terms of things that make no sense in the concept of repls, IIRC
21:47:51 <elliott> there was lots of flaming about it
21:48:09 <cheater99> * Now talking on #%top-interaction
21:48:15 <elliott> i think there are r6rs repls, but they essentially define their own program semantics
21:48:41 <dbc> Anyway! Going to make maybe French toast. See you.
21:49:00 <cpressey> BYE dbc WE'LL BE SURE TO ACCIDENTALLY MENTION YOUR NICK OFTEN
21:51:02 <cpressey> arg, the hello world site doesn't even specify a version of Scheme that their Scheme "hello world" is in
21:51:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:52:46 <cpressey> so, how long will it take me to find a R6RS "hello world"? Rosetta code doesn't have one, either
21:55:13 <oerjan> `addquote <cpressey> BYE dbc WE'LL BE SURE TO ACCIDENTALLY MENTION YOUR NICK OFTEN
21:55:15 <HackEgo> 355) <cpressey> BYE dbc WE'LL BE SURE TO ACCIDENTALLY MENTION YOUR NICK OFTEN
21:58:47 <cpressey> (import (rnrs base) (rnrs io simple)) (display "hello world")
21:59:09 <cpressey> Right, so, they're slowly turning it into Java. Good for them!
21:59:20 <elliott> first line is racket specific btw
22:00:16 <cpressey> and you can leave out (rnrs base) apparently
22:00:48 <cpressey> at any rate, I had read the spec to come up with that
22:01:53 <cpressey> oh right there was a reason i was doing this
22:02:34 <cpressey> (import (rnrs base) (rnrs io simple)) (display (let* () 5)) -----> 5
22:02:51 <elliott> i wouldn't trust racket :)
22:04:28 <cpressey> which produces the same result as let* in every impl i've tried so far
22:04:51 <elliott> depends on how you interpret ...
22:06:05 <cheater99> elliott: why can't you be elliottt
22:06:49 <cpressey> so, the current hot application area for R6RS: video pinball! http://www.littlewingpinball.com/doc/en/ypsilon/index.html
22:08:11 <cpressey> dear god i can't even get drracket to close
22:11:02 <cpressey> I would personally interpret the example (foo ...) as meaning "one or more occurrences of foo", but whadduino
22:11:30 <Gregor> Is Ypsilon real-time in the actual, strict sense of real-time, or is it real-time in the sense of "fast enough"?
22:11:44 <cheater99> Gregor: i think you mean "interactive" or "online"
22:11:45 <cpressey> Gregor: well it's Scheme, so...
22:11:45 <elliott> It's real-time as in game real-time :P
22:12:12 <Gregor> cpressey: My university has a big project on real-time Java. In the real sense of real-time. So anything is possible.
22:12:22 <Gregor> cheater99: No, I mean neither. Neither of those are real-time.
22:12:33 <cpressey> Gregor: your university is a university. This is some Japanese guy who really likes video pinball.
22:12:51 <cheater99> i thought "fast enough" was opposed to real-time in your sentence.
22:13:01 <Gregor> cheater99: Real-time means that you can statically guarantee timing properties of the program.
22:13:09 <cpressey> curse those Erlang knaves for popularizing "soft real-time"
22:13:24 <cpressey> cheater99: technically, yes, when people aren't abusing the term
22:13:37 <Gregor> cheater99: Yes [caveats: On a certain OS, on a certain piece of hardware, all the way down]
22:13:54 <cheater99> that totally surprised me, i always thought that "real-time" was a brand of toothpaste :|
22:14:09 <oklopol> no real-time is the REAL DEAL
22:14:15 <elliott> cpressey: i think soft real-time predates erlang :P
22:14:20 <Gregor> Real-time is what you need to be to run on an airplane.
22:14:34 * oerjan swats cheater99 -----###
22:14:39 <cpressey> elliott: did I say they invented it?
22:15:00 <oklopol> so about those real-time systems, why can't my os be one of those
22:15:00 <cheater99> Gregor: i know what "real-time" is. you didn't have to tell me that.
22:15:09 <elliott> oklopol: *your* OS *can* be!
22:15:18 <cheater99> Gregor: if you didn't get it, i was being sarcastic.
22:15:39 <Gregor> cheater99: I EAT BABIES.
22:15:54 <Gregor> cheater99: NOM NOM NOM
22:16:01 <oklopol> i did get that you didn't actually think real-time was a brand of toothpaste though
22:16:15 <oklopol> and i only eat babies if they are already dead by the time i find them
22:16:19 * cheater99 gives Gregor some woucester sauce.
22:16:37 <cheater99> oklopol: have you played penumbra :D
22:16:50 <cpressey> bah I need a scheme to build Larceny
22:16:52 <cheater99> there's a comment there similar to this
22:16:55 <oklopol> oh i thought it was a brand of toothpaste
22:17:10 <cpressey> ok so like I have like a dozen schemes installed at this point but that's beside the fact
22:17:10 <cheater99> and there's not one tub of toothpaste in it. play it.
22:17:20 <elliott> cpressey: you must really hate building ghc
22:17:33 <elliott> Larceny compiles directly to native machine code for the Intel IA32 or SPARC architectures.
22:17:33 <elliott> Petit Larceny is a portable implementation that compiles to C instead of machine code.
22:17:33 <elliott> Common Larceny runs in the Common Language Runtime (CLR) of Microsoft .NET, generating IL, which is JIT-compiled to native machine code by the CLR.
22:17:36 <elliott> eagerly awaiting Garden Larceny
22:18:36 <cheater99> so who here has programmed anything in NaCl?
22:18:53 <cpressey> elliott: dear god dear god yes.
22:19:10 <elliott> * [fizzie] @!NDQJMt934400 #douglasadams @#irtie #!/usr/bin/ff @#getnolife
22:19:21 <Sgeo> The humans are dead..
22:19:50 <elliott> Does IRCnet not have +i? :-)
22:20:29 <cpressey> aaaaand larceny accepts (let* () 5).
22:20:36 <elliott> <elliott> hyvä kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen
22:20:55 <elliott> haha, this is kind of wrong though, like kicking a dog :/
22:20:58 <elliott> a dog with a ridiculous language
22:21:33 <cpressey> cheater99: OMG THAT'S TABLE SALT
22:22:46 <cheater99> cpressey: it's also a sort of asm-like language that google is pushing.
22:22:58 <cpressey> ypsilon gives me an R6RS REPL. RACY.
22:23:14 <cheater99> it's actually just asm, with some special things that the static analyzer needs to validate it against.
22:23:15 <cpressey> Aaaaand it too believes (let* () 5) is perfectly valid and means 5.
22:23:42 <elliott> cpressey has this nice new life goal
22:23:53 <elliott> he'll never stop until he's evaluated that expression in every scheme implementation ever
22:24:03 <cheater99> it just analyzes whether it calls any functions it's not allowed to, that's all
22:24:41 <cheater99> the type of person who thinks it's a typed system, and the type who doesn't
22:25:05 <HackEgo> 330) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
22:25:43 <elliott> previously they asked if anyone in here was Rosicrucian
22:25:47 <oklopol> is that some real thing though?
22:25:58 <oklopol> also there's some sort of rave going on upstairs
22:26:10 <elliott> 13:17:08 <Phantom_Hoover> treederwright, what're the dimensions of the matrix of solidity?
22:26:10 <elliott> 13:18:01 <pikhq> Is the matrix of solidity square? Is it invertible?
22:26:14 <oklopol> maybe i should go there naked and yell "orgy time!"
22:26:16 <elliott> these questions were never answered.
22:26:23 <cheater99> oklopol: same here, but downstairs
22:31:33 <elliott> 13:41:24 <oklopol> shit has no value and thus doesn't lose any, is useful for getting rid off and can be small. it's not highly valuable though.
22:32:34 <cpressey> "X has no value" -> "X is not highly valuable"
22:32:57 <elliott> 13:47:05 <oklopol> are rodeos built out of rhodium
22:32:58 <elliott> 13:47:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes. Yes they are.
22:32:58 <elliott> 13:47:16 <Phantom_Hoover> So is Rhodew.
22:32:58 <elliott> 13:47:19 <Phantom_Hoover> *Rhodes
22:32:58 <elliott> 13:47:26 <oklopol> this all makes sense.
22:32:58 <elliott> 13:47:30 <oklopol> maybe i can learn more tomorrow ->
22:34:18 <elliott> you learn something new every day, oklopol.
22:34:26 <elliott> so hey oklopol, ircnet !NDQJMt934400
22:34:53 <cpressey> i will soon have a strongly typed scheme-let which isn't actually too very much like scheme, unless i get bored with this and decide to think about something else
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22:35:17 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:36:02 -!- wareya has joined.
22:36:26 <oklopol> takes sorta long to get accepted to ircnet
22:36:28 <elliott> Stuart Russel, Peter Norvig.
22:36:28 <elliott> Artificial Intelligence: the Modern Approach.
22:36:34 <elliott> fizzie: this should be "Russell", "A Modern"
22:36:36 <elliott> (https://noppa.tkk.fi/noppa/kurssi/t-93.4400/summary_in_english)
22:36:47 <oklopol> they're singing "we're not gonna take it"
22:36:52 <oklopol> i can clearly hear the lyrics
22:37:06 <oklopol> i should probably stop watching pig porn with full volume
22:37:08 <elliott> oklopol: well i just wished that channel a good kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen, i think however that it is much better now that you are there
22:40:10 <oklopol> sadly it's not aurinkoloistamassataivaalla-aika right now so no one's talking
22:42:09 <elliott> oklopol: speak some fake polysynthetic-finnish, we'll convince everyone we're brothers
22:42:24 <oklopol> i'd never do something that childish
22:42:58 <oklopol> which reminds me, should prolly take pikhq off ignore
22:43:34 <oklopol> he told me i know less math than the egyptians
22:44:35 <oklopol> i dunno, anything between 3 days and 3 months ago
22:45:45 <oklopol> i bet my guitar amp could outloud those party dudes
22:52:19 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:52:56 <tswett> elliott: say, you don't happen to want normish.org, do you?
22:53:08 <zzo38> It is good to keep both logs in case one is broke
22:53:21 <zzo38> Yes I can see that.
22:53:28 <elliott> tswett: I want it more than an un-Friendly AI might want to fill the universe with paperclips.
22:53:41 <tswett> elliott: do you want it a positive amount?
22:53:59 <tswett> I guess the minimum possible amount of wanting is 0, and anything other than 0 constitutes want.
22:54:03 <elliott> I want it an INFINITE POSITIVE AMOUNT.
22:54:24 <tswett> You should have been in ##nomic, then; the topic has said for days that I'm giving it away. :P
22:54:37 <zzo38> What rank of infinity do you want?
22:55:26 <tswett> elliott: do you have a MyDomain account?
22:55:58 <Sgeo> Would ownership of normish.org involve spending money?
22:56:16 <elliott> tswett: I totally do. On the other hand, I don't want it today, if that's okay X-D
22:56:27 <tswett> You'd have to renew it every so often. You would not have to pay me, unless there are multiple people who want it.
22:56:45 <elliott> tswett: I want it more if there is any interest in playing a game like Normish.
22:56:54 <tswett> I have interest in that. :P
22:57:22 <zzo38> Do you like to use FORMCARD? I invented the FORMCARD specification a while ago I would like to see in case of anything wrong you should check http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/formcard/fileformat.txt
22:57:50 <elliott> tswett: People who aren't you.
22:58:22 <Sgeo> elliott, yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesy
22:58:33 <tswett> I guess Sgeo also has interest in playing it.
22:58:53 <Sgeo> Can't guarantee I'd be active all the time thogh
22:59:39 <elliott> tswett: I now see the PERFECT WAY TO RUN NORMISH.
23:00:07 <elliott> To be able to vote, every month, everyone has to pay (cost of server)/(number of players). :p
23:00:25 <Sgeo> I thought you were specifically trying to exclude me
23:00:36 <elliott> Those who don't do that for two months in a row have their accounts made inactive. Any costs not covered are paid by root.
23:01:12 <tswett> I've figured there'd be a certain number of voting credits, and you could buy them outright, but anyone who's willing to pay more for them can buy them out from under you.
23:01:28 <elliott> tswett: I was mostly just trying to avoid having to spend money on the whole endeavour :)
23:01:33 <Sgeo> elliott, since I find it annoying to pay for stuff
23:01:37 <tswett> I have a server for free as long as I don't do anything naughty.
23:02:03 <tswett> Who's getting it from prgmr.
23:02:30 <elliott> tbh, it'd be a lot easier if I just got a prgmr server myself :-P
23:02:38 <elliott> We'd probably do fine with the $8/mo package, even.
23:02:51 <elliott> Gregor: How much do you pay for FlyByWire?
23:02:52 <tswett> That's fine. I'd be fully willing to pay half.
23:02:55 <elliott> Gregor: Because prgmr have a $5/mo server :P
23:03:04 <elliott> A whole 64 MEBIOCTETS of RAM.
23:03:11 <elliott> That's 16 MEBIWORDS of RAM.
23:03:35 <Gregor> elliott: Fly By Wire Enterprises: We is with having of the good times servers for less your money!
23:04:12 <elliott> What the heck is fly-by-wire about it anyway :P
23:04:24 <elliott> "Fly-by-wireless" BEST TERM EVER
23:04:44 <tswett> The fact that you don't control the servers by applying mechanical force to their control surfaces. :P
23:04:50 <elliott> tswett: Anyway, clearly Normish 2 has to be an acceptable host for SmallNomic :P
23:05:10 <elliott> tswett: To be honest, my IDEAL SmallNomic concept is actually... @nomic.
23:05:37 <tswett> What's that? A Twitter account?
23:05:53 <elliott> Gregor: What's that from again >_>
23:05:55 <elliott> tswett: You know of elliottOS?
23:06:04 <Gregor> elliott: IF YOU DON'T KNOW THEN YOU'RE AN ANDROID
23:06:16 <Deewiant> elliott: Where'd you pull that word from
23:06:33 <tswett> elliott: should I make us a WePay account to handle expenses?
23:06:58 <elliott> tswett: Let's say tomorrow.
23:07:06 <elliott> Deewiant: With oklopol's knowledge of Finnish and my desire for every language to be polysynthetic combined, we applied our combined forces to create the best word for "today" ever.
23:07:11 <elliott> Deewiant: I hope you grokked the meaning.
23:07:12 <Gregor> WHY DID NOBODY TELL ME ABOUT WEPAY WHEN I WAS COLLECTING FOR LIBC.SO
23:07:28 <Deewiant> elliott: Aye, I guessed as much
23:07:28 <elliott> tswett: Q:Does WePay allow international (non-US) payments?
23:07:28 <elliott> A:Not right now, but we hope to soon.
23:07:32 <elliott> tswett: Sorry, not workable.
23:07:33 <zzo38> Gregor: Sorry I didn't know about WePay either
23:08:14 <elliott> tswett: I would be fine just paying for the server myself, but if you want to pay half of it, then I'm fine just receiving half the yearly cost every year via any means :P
23:08:17 <tswett> elliott: no. I want Normish to be up and running with 1,000,000 users by tonight.
23:08:27 <elliott> I'll get Google on the phone.
23:08:41 <Gregor> elliott: So do you want to know who Fly By Wire Industries is? :P
23:08:48 <elliott> Gregor: Yes. I believe you've said but sure :P
23:09:00 <tswett> Gregor: I'm sorry, it's my fault. I knew about WePay but deliberately chose not to tell you because I hate your guts.
23:09:08 <tswett> Not you yourself, just your guts.
23:09:09 <elliott> Deewiant: Wait, so if I walked up to you IRL and dropped that word into a sentence, you'd continue on like nothing happened?
23:09:10 <Gregor> elliott: Oh, the other thing that was distressing is their extremely nondescript plans, including several plans with a substantially different price but the same features.
23:09:20 <elliott> Deewiant: THIS COULD BE ENOUGH TO MAKE ME LEARN FINNISH
23:09:23 <Gregor> 365ezone.com (<-- also so lol)
23:09:24 <tswett> And I figured the best way to spite your guts was this.
23:09:45 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, you should have got a Windows server.
23:09:53 <Deewiant> elliott: I'd understand what you're trying to say, but I wouldn't continue "like nothing happened" :-P
23:10:11 <tswett> elliott: what's this magical word that you're talking about?
23:10:15 <elliott> Deewiant: You can't say you'd give me a blank stare, because a blank stare is the default Finnish facial expression.
23:10:23 <elliott> tswett: kaksikymmentäneljätuntiaikakausitämänhetkinen
23:10:30 <tswett> elliott: and are you sure you can't make a United States domestic payment? :P
23:10:45 <Deewiant> It means "24-hour-time-period-current" or something
23:10:48 <tswett> I understand four letters of that word! Yay!
23:10:51 <elliott> tswett: I'm not SURE of that, but I'm sufficiently not unsure of it that it seems less pain just to give the payments in bulk :P
23:10:57 <tswett> At least, I think I do. :P
23:11:07 <oklopol> Deewiant: except unlike the finnish version, that english word is almost a valid sentence
23:11:18 <oklopol> not sentence but noun pile
23:11:27 <tswett> No, I actually don't understand any of it.
23:11:36 <elliott> Deewiant: http://miekko.infa.fi/kaksikymment.ogg
23:12:12 <oklopol> but if it was kahdenkymmenenneljntunninajanjaksotmnhetkinen, it'd be as good
23:12:52 <Deewiant> That "tämänhetkinen" just seems wrong
23:13:01 <oklopol> Deewiant: as wrong as in english
23:13:37 <oklopol> you dislike tmnhetkinenkahdenkymmenenneljntunninajanjakso too?
23:13:48 <elliott> Deewiant: I am offering a $9999999999 bounty for composing the sentence "My hovercraft is full of eels." in a single word of polysyntheticFinnish.
23:14:04 <Deewiant> oklopol: Yes, because then it should be (at least) two words :-P
23:14:15 <zzo38> elliott: Do you have that much money?
23:14:22 <oklopol> Deewiant: unlike current24hourperiod?
23:14:30 <tswett> He never said which currency that's in.
23:14:44 <zzo38> OK, what currency is that in?
23:14:51 <Deewiant> oklopol: The 24hourperiod bit is fairly fine in Finnish, not English.
23:14:52 <zzo38> (It is probably some currency using the dollar sign?)
23:15:13 <elliott> I am the treasurer, mint, &c.
23:15:59 <zzo38> O, so you made up your own $9999999999 bill which is valid only for paying you?
23:16:05 <oklopol> Deewiant: maybe slightly more fine
23:16:14 <elliott> It will open up an account in the Bank of Elliott.
23:16:23 <Deewiant> elliott: Best I can do is "my hovercraft full of eels" in two words: ankeriastäytteinen ilmatyynyalukseni
23:16:38 <elliott> Deewiant: Dude, it doesn't have to be perfectly valid Finnish.
23:16:46 <Deewiant> Well then just remove the space
23:16:57 <Deewiant> Creating a word like your 24-hour-period
23:16:59 <elliott> Deewiant: You need to fit the "is" in... probably in suffix.
23:17:12 <tswett> elliott dollars are legal tender for all debts, public and private, owed by elliott.
23:17:13 <Gregor> HOW TO MAKE A VALID FINNISH WORD: REMOVE SPACES
23:17:30 <tswett> elliott: "is" is totally unnecessary in Finnish.
23:17:38 <elliott> Gregor: there are actually like 28 one-letter finnish words
23:17:41 <elliott> Gregor: you just concatenate them successively
23:17:55 <tswett> How many letters are used in Finnish, not counting "sh"?
23:18:10 <Zwaarddijk> can you turn täyttyä into some neat verb form that would be past, finitive, detransitivized
23:18:44 <elliott> Deewiant: new bounty: "twenty-four-hour-period-in-which-my-hovercraft-is-full-of-eels"
23:18:57 <elliott> Such that it could go after "good", e.g. "good day" -> "good [day in which my hovercraft is full of eels]"
23:19:06 <Deewiant> I'll leave that one for oklopol
23:20:05 <Zwaarddijk> that requires too great finnish-fu for my hurri abilities :|
23:21:07 * oklopol says nothing and hopes they go away
23:22:51 <Gregor> You can do this with German, too.
23:22:55 <Gregor> Do we have any Germans here?
23:22:56 <Deewiant> elliott: I do hope you're actually inputting nonsense into a translator instead of getting that out of something sensible
23:23:08 <elliott> Deewiant: i refuse to disclose :-D
23:23:24 <Gregor> (Or Austrians, Suisse Deutsch?)
23:23:30 <Zwaarddijk> ilmatyynyaluksenankeriaistäyttyneisyydenkahdenkymmenennenneljäntunninkausi
23:23:40 <Zwaarddijk> alas, it lacks the first person possessive
23:24:14 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: pronounce THAT :D
23:24:30 <Zwaarddijk> there may be mistaken morphology in there
23:24:31 <Gregor> Google doesn't understand it :(
23:24:37 <Gregor> (It does know that it's Finnish)
23:24:37 <oklopol> Zwaarddijk: close enough, it means *something* except for the obvious typo
23:24:56 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: my keyboard sucks so typos can be because of that
23:25:00 <tswett> Looks like the Finnishest letters are adeghijklmnoprstuvyäö. 21 of them.
23:25:10 <oerjan> nåværende tjuefiretimersperiode
23:25:23 <tswett> So Finnish has 21 basic words, clearly, but there are a few loanwords, too.
23:25:40 <elliott> tswett: no, they're cunningly constructed out of the basic words
23:26:00 <tswett> So things such as "b" are constructed out of the other 21 letters?
23:26:33 <oerjan> b was unable to cross the finnish line
23:26:47 <elliott> what's so funny about "olen menettänyt sen"
23:26:51 <tswett> Everyone who crosses the Finnish border becomes unable to say "b".
23:26:57 <Zwaarddijk> I think there's a diagonalization proof that early Finnish could not support "b"
23:27:08 <elliott> <tswett> So things such as "b" are constructed out of the other 21 letters?
23:27:10 <tswett> The "b"-aura doesn't extend into Finland, you see.
23:27:19 <elliott> <elliott> what's so funny about "olen menettänyt sen"
23:27:25 <tswett> Of course, "b" is clearly just "pv".
23:27:49 <tswett> Say "pvottle". It will sound... similar to exactly the same as "bottle".
23:28:18 <elliott> `addquote <tswett> Of course, "b" is clearly just "pv". <tswett> Say "pvottle". It will sound... similar to exactly the same as "bottle".
23:28:19 <HackEgo> 356) <tswett> Of course, "b" is clearly just "pv". <tswett> Say "pvottle". It will sound... similar to exactly the same as "bottle".
23:29:25 <oerjan> norwegian samis are stereotypically unable of saying voiced stops...
23:30:16 <oerjan> and sami languages are closely related to finnish
23:30:19 <oklopol> elliott: olen menettnyt sen is funny because it's so far from the correct meaning, despite being unambiguously translatable and thus understandable. and menett is such a serious word.
23:30:31 <elliott> oklopol: what does it actually mean then :P
23:30:49 <elliott> please find my blah, I lost it
23:31:30 <oklopol> oh you literally meant you have lost something?
23:31:52 <oklopol> then it is not at all funny, just the wrong word.
23:31:59 <oerjan> i have misunderplaced it
23:32:50 <Zwaarddijk> actually menettää is more like, lost in gambling, lost something to someone as one of the connotations
23:33:02 <oerjan> pardon me sir, i would seem to have mislaid some of my marbles
23:39:49 <zzo38> My hand will not fit in the shredder.
23:40:30 <Zwaarddijk> that sounds like a feature rather than a flaw
23:41:28 <zzo38> Well yes. Actually the shredder is broken anyways. Now it will be necessary to unscrew it in order to fix it.
23:41:42 <zzo38> And I do not have that kind of screwdrivers.
23:42:12 <cheater99> menettää sounds like the polish word for cunnilingus.
23:47:34 -!- cheater00 has joined.
23:49:25 <zzo38> Which feature of TeXnicard is most important one to you? (You are allowed to select one which is not implemented yet, if that is what you wish)
23:50:41 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:51:24 <zzo38> elliott: Would that be considered a feature of the program?
23:51:51 <cheater00> zzo38: yes, it makes it better than the same project named e.g. "elliott"
23:52:39 <Sgeo> Fan sucks as a name! J sucks as a name! Factor _really_ sucks as a name!
23:53:12 <zzo38> cheater00: Yes, perhaps it is correct, it is better for the project to be named correctly according to what it is, instead of according to what it isn't. But still, the name is not really one of the functions of the program, I think.
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23:53:22 <zzo38> Sgeo: Can you suggest the better one than Fan, J, Factor?
23:53:44 <zzo38> Probably is best to leave those named as it is, since they were already like that? It might confuse more by changing it?
23:54:01 <Sgeo> zzo38, they shouldn't have been named those things in the first place
23:54:07 <elliott> fizzie: i think we're really improving your channel
23:54:20 <Sgeo> If you look for Factor language, you'll get stuff about how to do factoring in given languages
23:54:21 <zzo38> Sgeo: OK, then. What do you think they should have been named?
23:54:27 <Sgeo> zzo38, anything else
23:54:56 <Sgeo> Fantom's more Googleable than Fan
23:54:58 <cheater00> zzo38: the only reason for me to use your program is if it makes me feel better
23:55:06 <Sgeo> although I guess fan programming or fan language is still Googleable
23:55:14 <cheater00> zzo38: i wouldn't feel so good if i were using an "elliott" program
23:55:31 <zzo38> I am sure you can find stuff about Factor language, on Wikipedia, the article titles are very well organized that you should easily be able to guess the article title for nearly anything you look up, and get it correct.
23:55:33 <Sgeo> Oh, I thought it went Fantom -> Fan
23:55:37 <Sgeo> It went Fan -> Fantom
23:55:39 <Sgeo> I'm ok with that.
23:56:05 <Sgeo> zzo38, but I want more than just Wikipedia and what it links to. I want to be able to search StackOverflow without getting nonsense about factoring
23:56:32 <zzo38> Sgeo: Do they have categories in StackOverflow that you can use instead?
23:56:57 <Sgeo> Dan + Tom = Dantom
23:57:18 <Sgeo> Fannie Mae + Thomas = Fantom?
23:57:19 <oerjan> the The programming language
23:57:52 <ZOMGMODULES> they should have called it an unpronouncable symbol
23:57:59 <zzo38> cheater00: Does my program makes you feel better? Generally the reason of using a computer program is it is useful for the things you are doing by computer.
23:58:05 <Sgeo> ZOMGMODULES, that should be APL
23:58:35 <ZOMGMODULES> Dear Fantom, thank you for looking exactly like every other language. Yours, ZOMGMODULES
23:59:05 <Sgeo> zzo38, I meant that APL's name should be <unpronouncable symbol>
23:59:05 <cheater00> zzo38: yes, it is supposed to be useful, but the usefulness is not purely functional in the sense that there are no side-effects from the program in the form of the program *directly* accessing the state of my happiness.
23:59:16 <oerjan> the Programming language
23:59:26 <cheater00> as opposed to returning a happiness modifier to the higher-level task from within which it was involved.
23:59:33 * Sgeo notices oerjan
23:59:33 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: im gonna make apex without any of ur stinky influences
23:59:41 <oerjan> ... APL almost _is_ that isn't it.
23:59:56 <zzo38> cheater00: O, well, if it make you happy that is the bonus!
00:00:20 <cheater00> zzo38: programs can also make you unhappy
00:00:35 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes I know what you meant about APL's name, from the context. Yes I know you meant that.
00:00:46 <Sgeo> zzo38, ok, sorry, wsn't sure
00:01:16 <zzo38> cheater00: I suppose it can, but I am not intention to make the program of unhappy. The program is meant for its use.
00:01:25 <Sgeo> Obviously, I am King of the Jews... erm, Typos
00:01:38 <ZOMGMODULES> I find it interesting that every modern language's "Why X?" FAQ entry includes the rhetorical question "Does the world really need another language?"
00:01:52 <cheater00> zzo38: what i am saying is, when making a program always make sure to think of the user's feelings!
00:02:01 <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: how would it ever have had any of my influences anyway?
00:02:01 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: apex's will instead include "Does this new language really need the world?"
00:02:09 <elliott> "No. No it doesn't. We forced it into the world."
00:02:19 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: hey you exerted _vague_ influence :D
00:02:33 <Sgeo> elliott, is apex the new name of @?
00:03:40 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: is this some kind of horrid reverse psychology
00:04:07 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: i guess i'll uh
00:04:11 <elliott> what was that one thing you didn't want apex to do
00:04:40 <Sgeo> Allow apex to continue its non-existence?
00:04:47 <ZOMGMODULES> Bizaaro-Pixley is: statically typed: has 'eval' instead of 'quote': has only pairs and symbols: has some other crap you'd never see in Scheme
00:05:03 -!- augur_ has joined.
00:05:04 <elliott> how do you have a literal symbol?
00:05:05 <zzo38> ZOMGMODULES: What is Bizaaro-Pixley (other than that)?
00:05:09 <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: too late for MY considered opinion
00:05:13 <elliott> cons up a list of lists-representing-numerals and convert that?
00:05:24 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:05:28 <ZOMGMODULES> a literal symbol is a bareword. a pair is: [hi there]
00:06:40 -!- sftp has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
00:06:58 <elliott> also, eval has syntax? perverse. i like it.
00:07:33 <ZOMGMODULES> for the purposes of demonstration I shall use {} but I am not sold on it
00:07:40 -!- sftp has joined.
00:08:14 <zzo38> cheater00: Have you even *seen* my program? Otherwise how can you know?
00:08:39 <cheater00> zzo38: i never opined about your program
00:08:43 <ZOMGMODULES> so: {hi there} evaluates to {hi there}. {cons {a b}} evaluates to {cons {a b}}. but [{cons {a b}] evaluates to {a b}. [{cons {[a] [b]}] does what you'd normally expect (cons a b) to do, in Scheme
00:09:17 <zzo38> cheater00: O, OK. But how can you judge the book by only its name?
00:09:48 <cheater00> zzo38: <cheater00> zzo38: i never opined about your program
00:09:52 <zzo38> ZOMGMODULES: Is the {} mismatched, or is supposed to be like that?
00:10:29 <zzo38> cheater00: Then how can you know if it is correct name?
00:11:00 <cheater00> zzo38: i can judge a book's cover without reading the book.
00:11:19 <zzo38> Yes you can, but how can you judge if it is the correct cover for that book?
00:11:35 <cheater00> have i ever said anything about whether it is the correct name for your program?
00:12:14 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: so [] is not eval, it is unquote
00:12:15 <zzo38> You said is happy, but that should not be relevant except the program? If you just want to make it happy, you can make anything else, too.
00:13:27 <zzo38> I have written some Bohlen-Pierce musics recently but I do not have it available right now sorry
00:13:51 <zzo38> cheater00: ? Stop cheating please ???
00:15:17 <zzo38> Can you play Bohlen-Pierce musics too?
00:17:33 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Toon guide).
00:17:33 <zzo38> I only made Bohlen-Pierce musics with no more than one note played at one time, so far, because I don't know how to make chord and stuff like that with Bohlen-Pierce musics.
00:17:53 <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: well, it's *an* eval. and yes, i missed a close }
00:19:26 <ZOMGMODULES> {let {{a b} a} -> {let {{a b} a} ... [{let {{a b} [a]}] -> b
00:19:55 <ZOMGMODULES> but the snazzy part comes from that session where oerjan and cpressey were abusing Haskell
00:20:41 <zzo38> It still looks like unmatched
00:20:47 <olsner> oh, right, when the snazzy was in the happening
00:21:31 <ZOMGMODULES> unless i missed a } in there too, i keep doing that
00:21:47 <olsner> I gather that's quite the something-or-other
00:24:31 <ZOMGMODULES> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvW-ZGNjBYc
00:27:38 <ZOMGMODULES> now i have to remember enough haskell to implement it
00:29:18 <ZOMGMODULES> Expr ::= bareword | "{" Expr Expr "}" | "[" Expr "]"
00:32:01 <olsner> i've come to talk to you again
00:32:32 <olsner> about a parser so soft creeping, bla-bla blah parser something-something
00:38:47 <olsner> couldn't be bothered figuring out the proper lyridcs
00:39:12 <olsner> though I'm pretty sure you can make something completely coherent about parsec parsers to that tune
00:39:25 <olsner> as coherent as such talk could ever be
00:40:43 <olsner> hark bark flark flrgblk
00:41:27 <ZOMGMODULES> I don't appear to have it installed though, what is this craziness?
00:41:30 <olsner> I spell parsec using my brain and my hands
00:43:29 <olsner> maybe with some kind of flatulence input method you could do it with your arse
00:43:40 <ZOMGMODULES> ohhh do I have to install the damn thing with cabal
00:44:00 <olsner> like the opposite of hawking's computer thingy
00:44:41 <olsner> also: with Cabal or with cabal-install?
00:45:11 <olsner> and I do wonder why I'm talking at you
00:45:12 <ZOMGMODULES> maybe not cabal, trying: sudo apt-get install libghc6-parsec3-dev
00:45:33 <olsner> I'm awake and have nothing better to do perhaps?
00:45:42 <ZOMGMODULES> under this nick, I'm like elliott but even more obnoxious
00:46:14 <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: we can't be seen together from now on
00:46:24 -!- elliott has left ("roger that").
00:47:39 <olsner> I will have to re-evaluate your existance based on these new facts
00:48:43 <olsner> good! it will do you none
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00:52:23 <Vorpal> <olsner> *are* you elliott? <-- hm probably not "+ ZOMGMODULES (~catseye@adsl-99-92-177-115.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net) has left #esoteric"
00:52:50 <olsner> Vorpal: a user name of "catseye" is not exactly hard to fake
00:53:11 <olsner> and I have no idea where elliott would connect from
00:54:52 <Vorpal> + [ZOMGMODULES] (~catseye@adsl-99-92-177-115.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net): Chris Pressey. whois fails badly. on the ip
00:54:59 <Vorpal> but I can get that ISP is based in US
00:55:28 <Vorpal> whois fails on any subdomain to sbcglobal.net
00:55:35 <olsner> sense you're making: scant if at all
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00:55:56 <Vorpal> you *do* act like elliott however.
00:56:41 <olsner> NOT-ZOMGMODULES: "HIM" is (I believe) some kind of pop music
00:59:42 <Vorpal> wait what. Ads in whois result
00:59:50 <Vorpal> (from the registrar, but still..)
01:15:05 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> Now I need to implement the actual hard parts of the evaluator
01:15:45 <Gregor> D'oh, definitely need a photon tracer >_>
01:16:41 <Gregor> Mainly because I can't figure out how to invert that if the photons are of normal orientation but the viewer is reoriented :P
01:18:10 <Gregor> OK, raytracing it is :)
01:18:21 <Gregor> (Going backwards in time)
01:26:34 <Sgeo> Gregor, what are you trying to do?
01:26:47 * Sgeo wants there to be a raytracer that does relativity
01:27:19 <Gregor> <Gregor> CONSIDER: A machine that allows you to "reorient" yourself relative to the physical and temporal dimensions, so that one of the physical dimensions becomes time, and time is experienced as a physical dimension.
01:27:39 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> Sgeo: there is one. I remember seeing images it made, in the 90's.
01:28:04 <Sgeo> Gregor, isn't that something like that in black holes, or is that a common misconception, or am I misremembering something I recently read?
01:28:19 <Gregor> Sgeo: That's just intense time dilation.
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01:29:49 <Sgeo> http://www.photon.at/~werner/bh/gvsim.html
01:29:52 <Sgeo> I wanna go inside!
01:30:00 <Sgeo> And I want to make my own!
01:30:07 <Gregor> I don't want to write a raytracer ... maybe there's one that doesn't suck that I can modify ... a lot ...
01:30:35 <Sgeo> POV-Ray sucks? (Is POV-Ray open source?)
01:30:46 <Gregor> "that I can modify a lot"
01:30:51 <Gregor> POV-Ray does WAY more than I need for this.
01:31:04 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> modifying someone else's raytracer implementation, always a great way to kill a week or two or ninety-five
01:31:05 <calamari> I wonder if that guy ever opened up vivid
01:31:07 <Gregor> Aw screw it, I've written ray-tracers, I can write another one X-P
01:31:47 <Sgeo> calamari, vivid?
01:32:01 <calamari> vivid was a ray tracer I used back in the ms-dos days
01:32:16 <calamari> it was much faster than pov-ray at the time and had better quality
01:33:57 <calamari> Stephen Coy, Christopher Watkins and Mark Finlay co-authored a book
01:33:57 <calamari> on Ray Tracing called "Photorealism and Ray Tracing in C".
01:33:57 <calamari> Distributed free with the book was an example ray tracer called BOB.
01:34:23 <Gregor> The thing is, for what I need, I need a HORRIBLY broken raytracer :P
01:34:38 <Sgeo> Gregor, broken?
01:34:53 <Sgeo> I mean, unless you mean broken in that your modifications mess with it
01:35:29 <Gregor> I'm essentially using a raytracer as a backwards photon mapper, but I have to maintain the actual time it takes for photons to get to their destination (as opposed to a conventional raytracer which considers light to be infinitely fast) since time is a physical dimension.
01:35:46 <calamari> "maybe there's one that doesn't suck that I can modify" ...vs... "I need a HORRIBLY broken raytracer"
01:37:16 <Gregor> "doesn't suck" in the "is relatively modular and modifiable sense"
01:37:23 <Gregor> And yes, modifying a good one into this nonsense would be better.
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01:38:36 <calamari> sounds like you'd be better off starting from scratch hehe
01:39:14 <Gregor> Actually, wait ... argh ... since the photons you're perceiving aren't themselves reoriented, all you would actually see is identical to if you were just slowly moving in one dimension ...
01:39:41 <zzo38> Is it possible to add polarization as well?
01:40:00 <zzo38> Would it be useful to do so?
01:40:59 <Gregor> zzo38: I'm not sure, but considering my mind can barely comprehend what I have already, I don't want to :P
01:41:16 <Gregor> ... reoriented light, standard orientation observer. *brain axplotes*
01:43:01 <Gregor> Simplified, what you see at any given instant is all the photons that hit the point in spacetime represented by your eye at that instant. The fact that the movement of this point is along a different axis than everything else is wholly irrelevant, photons are still photons.
01:44:19 <Gregor> Let's ignore for a moment the fact that the photons are, from your perspective, immobile, and so probably imperceptible >_>
01:44:56 <Gregor> Also let's ignore the fact that if photons are immobile, NOTHING makes sense.
01:45:14 <Sgeo> Make it so the angle of the switching between time and space dimensions can be anything
01:46:05 <Gregor> Doesn't make any difference, now you're just /slowly/ experiencing time while sliding /slowly/ in one dimension.
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02:13:17 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> <Gregor> I'm essentially using a raytracer as a backwards photon mapper, but I have to maintain the actual time it takes for photons to get to their destination [...] <-- wouldn't this just be the length of the ray?
02:24:00 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> I started writing a raytracer once but never finished it...
02:25:35 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> for(x=0:100){for(y=0:100){r=Ray(x,y);c=black;for(o:scene)if(r.intersect(o)){c=white;break};plot(x,y,c)}}
02:25:51 * Sgeo just spend $100 of his dad's money
02:25:54 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> that's pretty much it. well, you have to implement the Ray class, and objects and stuff
02:25:59 <Sgeo> Um.. well, my dad spend it, I guess
02:26:11 <Sgeo> I think he's expecting me to pay him back.. which I will, I guess
02:27:35 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> all my objects were spheres, and it's pretty easy to tell when a line has intersected a sphere... hey so why did I never finish it?
02:27:40 <Gregor> NOT-ZOMGMODULES: That is the length of the ray, but remember that time is now a /location/, I thought (incorrectly) that I had to distinguish the parts of the ray corresponding to frames in the animation.
02:28:03 <Sgeo> NOT-ZOMGMODULES, sponsorship of Grandroids
02:28:18 <Sgeo> Although I'm a bit torn about that extra $25 just to get a thank you in the credits
02:32:07 <Sgeo> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1508284443/grandroids-real-artificial-life-on-your-pc
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02:33:19 <Sgeo> Hi elliott. I just spend an extra $25 on something just so my name would be included
02:33:48 <Gregor> <elliott> Sgeo: TOO MUCH MONEY DERP
02:34:28 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> elliott: Sgeo just bought real artificial life. I think this makes him a slave owner?
02:35:12 <elliott> NOT-ZOMGMODULES: absolutely
02:35:22 <Sgeo> Gregor, you don't torture your cat the way I've tortured norns before...
02:35:24 <elliott> after what he did to norns, how is he still allowed to adopt virtual life?
02:35:39 <Gregor> I don't think that how you treat your slaves affects whether they're slaves or not...
02:37:43 <Sgeo> I think I inflicted actual pain only on a very few
02:37:57 <Sgeo> Usually it's death or blindness or the like
02:42:27 <elliott> 00:55:56: <Vorpal> you *do* act like elliott however.
02:42:33 <elliott> i wouldn't say anything like that ever
02:42:35 <elliott> not even to my worst enemy
02:43:08 <elliott> 01:30:07: <Gregor> I don't want to write a raytracer ... maybe there's one that doesn't suck that I can modify ... a lot ...
02:43:13 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, raytracers only take a couple thousand of lines :P
02:43:26 <Gregor> elliott: I'm not writing it. Upon further thought the result would be really boring.
02:43:47 <Gregor> Lemme copy my quote from above ...'
02:44:03 <elliott> I mean, it's obvious what the result would look like, but it's still a useful intuitive tool.
02:44:09 <Gregor> <Gregor> Simplified, what you see at any given instant is all the photons that hit the point in spacetime represented by your eye at that instant. The fact that the movement of this point is along a different axis than everything else is wholly irrelevant, photons are still photons.
02:44:30 <elliott> ...well duh, don't simulate PHOTONS with the same reorientation.
02:44:32 <Gregor> All you would see is time frozen as you slide slowly along one axis.
02:44:43 <elliott> You're meant to pretend you have a magical camera that works by magic.
02:44:45 <Gregor> No, this is unreoriented photons.
02:44:50 <elliott> What about reoriented photons.
02:45:01 <Gregor> That's precisely like looking at somebody reoriented while you're not.
02:45:17 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> <Gregor> I don't think that how you treat your slaves affects whether they're slaves or not... <-- what if you free them? OMGZEN
02:45:46 <elliott> Gregor: Yes... the point is that the WHOLE SCENE is reoriented :P
02:45:58 <elliott> Which is important, because that's what the reoriented view of a 3D reorientation game would look like.
02:46:47 <Gregor> Bleh, fine, I'll write it :P
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02:48:11 <elliott> Gregor: Oh, and make sure it can do colours separately of all the photon mess... so that you can identify objects in the scene when reoriented X-D
02:49:58 <Gregor> OK, assuming that photons from your perspective are immobile, and that you carry a lightsource with you through the machine, there's an excuse :P
02:50:20 <Gregor> For why there are reoriented photons to see.
02:50:35 <elliott> Gregor: btw an IRL one of these things is possibly the most disturbing machine i can imagine
02:50:46 <elliott> even the idea of some... repeated carpet...
02:50:57 <elliott> an atom-thin slice of carpet
02:51:29 <elliott> Gregor: Also, AFAICT, in a still-in-normal-world scene, when you reorient, everything would start moving towards you :P
02:51:48 <elliott> Gregor: EXERCISE: Figure out what the fuck happens when a reoriented person collides with what is in non-oriented-world a normal wall.
02:52:01 <Gregor> elliott: The universe explodes.
02:52:24 <elliott> Gregor: A PERFECT IRL machine would do it at the quark level though.
02:52:33 <elliott> Gregor: So basically, you go through the machine, and emerge in a world without any complete, proper atoms.
02:52:43 <Gregor> elliott: YOUR MOM WOULD DO IT AT THE QUARK LEVEL
02:53:03 <elliott> THAT'S THE ONLY WAY ANYBODY _CAN_ DO IT WITH YOU
02:53:08 <elliott> ANYTHING ELSE AND THE SCALE'S ALL WRONG
02:54:03 <elliott> Gregor: I'm totally nightmare-fueling about this machine now :P
02:55:00 <elliott> "For Time—in its relativity, brutality and absurdity— is one of "Friday"'s great targets. In an instant day passes to night, and the realism of the bus stop gives way to a surreal blue-screen panorama of a full moon and false city running on loop as Ms. Black rides in the convertible, apparent-heiress to the grand American tradition of high school cruising, that curious space birthed by Cold War highways (themselves relics of our atomic fears
02:55:01 <elliott> ) in which teenagers first experienced themselves as such."
02:55:02 <elliott> http://www.theawl.com/2011/03/arms-so-freezy-rebecca-blacks-friday-as-radical-text
02:56:38 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> ok i have decided to change Bizaaro-Pixley in several ways
02:57:22 <elliott> NOT-ZOMGMODULES: wow, now it's even more like Nock!
02:57:33 <elliott> may I suggest replacing * with ' for maximum consuion
02:58:14 <elliott> I Can't Believe It's Not Lisp
02:58:33 <elliott> NOT-ZOMGMODULES: or no no no wait
03:00:21 <elliott> "New engine sends shockwaves through auto industry - 3.5x more efficient, doesn't require cooling system, transmission, or fluids"
03:00:56 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> and it discloses to you this one weird old tip to shed belly fat
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03:02:00 <elliott> acai berry! it works so cheap! as seen on fox news!
03:02:07 <elliott> ok let's stop this before it gets out of hand
03:08:52 <Gregor> "We have a dangerous mission ahead of us." "I understand ... get the ship's counselor."
03:12:28 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, before a dangerous mission it's important to get some... therapy...
03:13:37 <Gregor> But I've improved it: "We have a dangerous mission, lives are at risk. Assemble an away team." "Counselor, doctor, you're with me."
03:13:38 <elliott> Gregor: I WAS TRYING TO IMPLY THAT TROI IS ONLY ON THE BRIDGE BECAUSE PICARD ET AL. FIND HER SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE AND ALSO HAVE RELATIONS WITH HER ON A REGULAR BASIS UNDER THE GUISE OF "THERAPY"
03:13:51 <elliott> there, happy now that we've thrown british subtlety out of the window in favour of american sledgehammering?
03:14:10 <Gregor> elliott: NUH UH IT'S BECAUSE SHE CARRIES THE RANK OF A LIEUTENANT COMMANDER FOR SOME NEVER-EXPLAINED REASON
03:14:31 <elliott> Gregor: Because she commands all the crew's... lieutenants...
03:15:02 <coppro> elliott: It's still spelled lieutenant
03:15:22 <elliott> leftenant (plural leftenants)
03:15:22 <elliott> An archaic spelling of lieutenant.
03:15:55 <elliott> hmm, i wonder what force of logic allows lieutenant to be pronounced in the uk way
03:16:19 <NOT-ZOMGMODULES> also the canadian way. that force of logic is called FRENCH
03:16:50 <coppro> Quebecois, thankyouverymuch
03:17:12 <elliott> coppro: it's still spelt "fag"
03:17:13 <calamari> Gregor: they gave the reason for lt com.. she got involved with picard before.. she gave favors, she got favors
03:17:23 <elliott> dunno which is more offensive/funny
03:17:43 <elliott> calamari: you mean this is CANON? 8D
03:18:03 <calamari> not at all, I'm making it up :P
03:18:40 <calamari> but I'm pretty sure it was canon that they had some kind of relationship inthe past
03:19:33 <elliott> is there any evidence to suggest picard hasn't had sex with everyone on the enterprise?
03:20:00 <coppro> elliott: I don't think picard is into male klingons
03:20:11 <elliott> coppro: that's not evidence against
03:20:18 <elliott> one, there is no evidence he ISN'T into male klingons
03:20:18 <Gregor> No, they're into him BA-DUM
03:20:26 <elliott> two, you can have sex with people you're not attracted to
03:20:43 <coppro> elliott: occam's razor; evidence readmitted
03:21:00 <elliott> occam's razor is disproved on a weekly basis
03:21:01 <calamari> Jack later served aboard the USS Stargazer under Picard, and the couple became good friends with the captain. Picard later admitted he had fallen in love with Beverly, but did not ever express his feelings because he felt that doing so would betray his friend. <---- lies.. they totally f***ed
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03:27:52 <coppro> elliott: no; that discount isn't valid in that sector after 3:00 AM
03:28:07 <elliott> coppro: fuck you, i'm a bear
03:30:45 <elliott> tswett: i'll talk wrt normish tomorrow
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04:00:58 <zzo38> Is it fine enough measurements if the space factors are in different units that 40 is the normal space value instead of 1000, and where 255 is the maximum?
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04:16:25 * Sgeo wants to see the pre-6th-edition rules of Magic
04:16:33 <Sgeo> I do vaguely remember Interrupts
04:16:46 <zzo38> Yes they did have Interrupts, which are no longer used.
04:17:15 <zzo38> There are various things about the rules (any editions) which I do not like, although there are many good rules, too.
04:17:37 <zzo38> Such as, I do not like they removed mana burn.
04:26:12 <zzo38> I do not even know if this still works in the modern rules: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Magic_The_Gathering_card_deck_of_programming_language
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04:33:25 <Sgeo> Wait, the body of the first concept wasn't yours?
04:34:22 <zzo38> It was my idea, but I did not write most of the text on that page.
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04:37:34 <zzo38> I am trying to write a program which estimates values of chess pieces by calculating the resistance between every pair of cells on the board.
04:38:52 <zzo38> Yes, the resistance, in ohms.
04:39:07 <zzo38> I know it is stragne but it is an experiment I can try.
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05:06:52 <quintopia> is there a good way to compress very short strings of english text?
05:07:18 <zzo38> Like, how short do you mean?
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05:55:38 <zzo38> I don't know which ways are best. I suppose usually English text consists of letters and spaces, and some punctuation, and some letters/punctuation are less common than others. There is also combinations that might be more likely or less likely than others.
05:59:29 <zzo38> Do you think prime numbers are of any use in estimating values of chess pieces?
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07:55:36 <zzo38> OK, do you have anything else to discussion or do you want for something else to be typed? (In case of the second way, you might look at recent logs in case you are interested in it)
08:19:34 * impomatic has a few new dev boards and is trying to figure out how to do something useful with them.
08:22:02 <zzo38> What kind of dev boards do you have?
08:24:53 <impomatic> Arduino, Minimus, Maximus, Altera Max, eZ430, ST7, TI Launchpad, Micropendous3
08:26:08 <impomatic> The trouble with the Minimus and Maximus is they're also used for PS Jailbreak, so most of the stuff I find online is about Jailbreak :-(
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08:56:14 <Vorpal> impomatic, hm, what are Minimus and Maximus then? It seems strange to me some random development boards would be used for jail break.
08:56:36 <Vorpal> or do you mean the words are used?
08:56:53 <impomatic> No, the dev boards are used: http://minimususb.com or http://www.teensy.co.uk/Maximus-AVR-USB-v1.2-inc-Case/c17/index.html
08:57:16 <Vorpal> impomatic, what would make them more fit for jail breaking, as opposed to other boards?
08:58:32 <impomatic> No sure. They're pretty cheap and built into a USB stick
08:59:05 <Vorpal> impomatic, for a development board that sounds impractical. *opens browser to look at how many IO pins they have*
09:00:06 <Vorpal> impomatic, wait what, the latter link has AVR in the page and also PIC18F4550
09:00:32 <impomatic> Minimus appears to have access to all pins. Maximus 1.0 only has access to a few. Not sure about Maximus 1.2 (which is still in the post).
09:01:16 <impomatic> That one confused me too... I'll open it up when it arrives! Maximus 1.0 is definitely AVR. Maximus 1.2 isn't really clear :-)
09:01:56 <Vorpal> impomatic, for sake of sanity I hope it isn't PIC! Though I only programmed PIC12 series. I guess PIC18 series is not quite as bad
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09:27:55 <oerjan> <elliott> occam's razor is disproved on a weekly basis
09:28:13 <oerjan> so you are saying that you are discounting occam's razor as not being the simplest explanation?
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09:40:08 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell elliott TV TROPES INSANITY CONTINUES: I swear they've started filtering out swearwords.
09:44:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: TI also has one built-into-USB-stick MSP430 series devel-board, https://estore.ti.com/EZ430-F2013-MSP430-USB-Stick-Development-Tool-P800.aspx
09:45:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: The "more information" page says it has "14 user accessible pins"; here's a pic: http://focus.ti.com/graphics/tool/ez430-f2013.jpg
09:46:26 <fizzie> (That F2013 chip is quite a small one.)
09:56:47 <oerjan> "Erdős may instead be exemplifying the “Lazarus Effect’: according to this list he has published 34 papers since 1999. Allowing 2–3 years as a typical upper bound on gestation for a journal paper, this would seem to indicate a fair bit of effort since his death in 1996."
09:56:57 <oerjan> (http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2011/04/08/why-is-everything-named-after-gauss/)
09:57:45 <zzo38> Then it must be someone else with the same name or using a pseudonym
09:58:34 <Vorpal> <fizzie> (That F2013 chip is quite a small one.) <-- quite.
09:58:35 <oerjan> i would _guess_ it is people adding his name as a joke, because of erdős numbers
09:58:54 <zzo38> That could be it, too.
09:59:17 <oerjan> some of the papers might still be based on his work, perhaps
10:04:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have to say I'm more used to huge development boards, where you have hundreds of pins for various purposes around.
10:06:23 <oerjan> http://www.gaussfacts.com/random
10:07:05 <oerjan> oklopol: especially for you ^
10:09:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: Those tend to cost a bit more, too; I guess the cheapest end ones tend to be rather spartan.
10:10:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, I mostly used development boards at university.
10:10:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, often with fancy debugging over JTAG interfaces and what not
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10:20:16 <fizzie> The DSP devboards we had were rather on the large side, too. Well, at least compared to these microcontroller boards. http://www.spectrumdigital.com/product_info.php?&products_id=100 is one of them.
10:25:30 * oerjan reads today's iwc and recalls doing the exact opposite of that
10:26:51 <oerjan> that is, crumpling foil wrapper to turn it into little "crystal" balls
10:27:29 <oerjan> this obviously means i must be dmm's secret nemesis.
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11:03:56 <oklopol> "Gauss classified the finite groups. When he was finished with the simple ones, there were none left."
11:08:01 <oklopol> "Gauss has an Erdos number of -1." why isn't there a gauss number
11:09:35 <ais523> I'm confused, because I almost certainly have an Erdős number, but don't know what it is
11:10:01 <ais523> (also, when I loaded up Character Map to copy-paste the ő, I found it was already selected so I didn't have to go look for it, which is nice; I must have had to type Erdős before)
11:11:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, most dev boards I have seen had sockets for various different CPUs from the same family. I think I saw an AVR one that had like 14 or 15 different CPU sockets on it.
11:12:32 <cheater00> Phantom_Hoover: the pinouts are usually the same, it's just that the packages differ in size
11:12:53 <cheater00> so you'll have like concentric pinouts on the pcb where the leads go straight through the pads
11:15:06 <oklopol> ais523: there are websites that give you an upper bound
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11:16:01 <Vorpal> I can't find the 14-socket one atm, but this one is also pretty impressive in terms of number of IO pinshttp://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.kamami.pl/published/publicdata/BTC10/attachments/SC/products_pictures/stk600.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.kamami.pl/index.php%3Fukey%3Dproduct%26productID%3D46340%26did%3D34%26view%3Dprintable&usg=__XDa0lEfhhT8nIvazCos8fF5LX2I=&h=275&w=300&sz=37&hl=en&start=0
11:16:01 <Vorpal> &zoom=1&tbnid=gvJX_07o7Jp2fM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=135&ei=bj-gTar3LYrZtAa1kPCVBw&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSTK600%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:unofficial%26biw%3D1556%26bih%3D667%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=289&vpy=332&dur=292&hovh=215&hovw=235&tx=86&ty=103&oei=bj-gTar3LYrZtAa1kPCVBw&page=1&ndsp=32&ved=1t:429,r:17,s:0:
11:16:25 <Vorpal> well, here is a direct link: http://www.kamami.pl/published/publicdata/BTC10/attachments/SC/products_pictures/stk600.jpg
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11:19:23 <Phantom_Hoover> The TV Tropes So Bad It's Horrible pages have fanfic divided into *7* alphabetical subsections.
11:19:58 <Vorpal> http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?tool_id=2735 is not quite the 14-socket one either. But it has a respectable 8 CPU sockets. I used that one at university. I have no clue why it has two of each size of CPU socket. Possibly for dual-CPU development?
11:20:10 <Vorpal> Since the output ports are not duplicated...
11:22:10 <oklopol> Gauss can get to the other side of a Mbius strip.
11:24:43 <oklopol> "Gauss can comb Poincar's hairy balls" what :D
11:24:58 <fizzie> Heh, I got that one too.
11:25:08 <fizzie> And by "got" I mean "received from the random-lister page".
11:25:33 <fizzie> I think it was kinda oko.
11:25:47 <fizzie> You're all about hairy balls, aren't you?
11:25:51 <oklopol> yes, i agree, it was kinda stupid
11:38:35 <oklopol> there should be webpages like that gauss thing for more specific topics
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11:41:44 <oklopol> gauss can construct a nonplanar graph such that no subdivisions of K_5 appear as a subgraph, and every subgraph that is a subdivision of K_{3,3} has itself a planar embedding
11:45:26 <oklopol> gauss can construct a subset S of 1^* such that for every problem L subset {0, 1}^* for which there exists a nondeterministic turing machine A and a polynomial p such that L is exactly the set of words w for which there exist an accepting run of A of length p(|w|), there also exists a function g in FP such that u is in S if and only if g(s) is in L
11:46:13 <oklopol> .., there also exists a function g in FP such that s is in L if and only if g(s) is in S
11:46:49 <oklopol> (that's a stronger theorem than i proved yesterday but if you look at the proof you note that S doesn't actually need to be in NP)
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11:48:54 <oklopol> i should make my own gauss page, drop gauss and call it "false things that are close to a true thing"
11:50:40 <oklopol> but i suppose they should start with an existential quantifier (replacing the current gauss quantifier "gauss can X")
11:50:59 <oklopol> so that you have a clear impossibility you can laugh at
11:51:12 <oklopol> like a single totally crazy object like that S there
11:53:14 <oklopol> i think i have to escape this heated discussion before it becomes a flamewar
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11:56:28 <oklopol> oerjan: come play mangle the theorem with me
12:01:28 <oklopol> gauss can construct an algebra with underlying set S and a unary operation * such that there exist elements e != f such that both e and f are identity elements with respect to *
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12:11:13 <oklopol> especially as the proof that it's impossible takes about 10 characters
12:15:37 <cheater00> Wenn man auf einem Taschenrechner 707 eingibt und den Taschenrechner umdreht, erscheint das Wort "LOL". Addiert man dann zu diesem "LOL" ein weiteres, dann ist das Ergebnis "hihi".
12:16:09 <oklopol> my algebra joke was funnier though
12:16:42 <cheater00> oklopol: i didn't realize it was a joke, i thought it was really truth for some very odd definition of "algebra"
12:17:08 <oklopol> operation = * has type S x S -> S
12:17:38 <oklopol> e identity = e * x = x * e = e for all x in S
12:18:41 <cheater00> obviously (S, S) -> S would be an operation on sets
12:19:24 <oklopol> i just assumed you used (A, B) notation instead of A x B, it makes more sense
12:20:11 <cheater00> oklopol: because multiply(x, y) has two parameters and one result.
12:20:36 <oklopol> yes, and yet multiply(a, a) is not necessarily a
12:21:22 <cheater00> http://learnyouahaskell.com/types-and-typeclasses#type-variables
12:21:48 <cheater00> have a read from a website i helped create, it has nice pictures.
12:22:32 <oklopol> so you did mean SxS by (S,S)
12:23:22 <cheater00> no, a is the type of elements from S. it is not S.
12:23:47 <cheater00> in mathematical notation you would say S x S -> S
12:23:52 <oklopol> if you want to have an artificial difference, of course you can have that, but there's really no need for that.
12:24:14 <cheater00> no need, but i'm just telling you why i denoted it differently
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12:25:22 <oklopol> in any case, yes, * :: (a, a) -> a, where a is the type of elements of S
12:25:26 <oklopol> that's what a binary op is
12:26:01 <oklopol> i prefer to think of it as a subset of the cartesian product of S^2 and S such that each element of S^2 has a unique image
12:28:04 <cheater00> you mean well-defined binary operator
12:28:15 <oklopol> i mean a fucking function from S^2 to S
12:28:30 <cheater00> if it's not well-defined it can yield results that are not a, or not be defined at all
12:28:51 <cheater00> also is a fucking function like an orgy in a church with candles and stuff
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12:29:04 <oklopol> uhhuh. and i guess it could also be an elephant given the right isomorphism.
12:32:01 <cheater00> you know, they say a good scientist can take a single dot on a blackboard and extrapolate it into an elephan
12:32:49 <oklopol> gauss can extrapolate it into a mastodon
12:38:46 <cheater00> riemann can extrapolate it into a mouse
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14:35:24 <elliott> 05:06:52: <quintopia> is there a good way to compress very short strings of english text?
14:35:24 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:37:27 <elliott> 09:27:55: <oerjan> <elliott> occam's razor is disproved on a weekly basis
14:37:27 <elliott> 09:28:13: <oerjan> so you are saying that you are discounting occam's razor as not being the simplest explanation?
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15:21:19 <tswett> elliott: how dare you insult Occam? :P
15:21:28 <elliott> tswett: in the context of star trek
15:21:46 <tswett> You have my blessings. Tentatively.
15:21:52 <tswett> So, elliott, guess what day it is!
15:21:55 <elliott> I feel strangely... blessed, somehow.
15:22:06 <tswett> Jump on an altar and see if it's true.
15:22:13 <elliott> Everyone is here... in the future! http://everyoneishereinthefuture.com/one.html
15:23:17 <coppro> tswett: nope, I checked. It's still today
15:23:52 <elliott> Everyone is... no longer here... in the past.
15:23:58 <tswett> coppro: but today is Friday (speaking in terms of yesterday), meaning today, Saturday, must be tomorrow.
15:24:25 <tswett> Sunday: the most extreme day of the week.
15:24:35 <Sgeo> Why made this?
15:24:59 <tswett> Sgeo: are you speaking of a person known as Why who seems to have made something?
15:25:28 <elliott> tswett: "Why" is an abbreviation for "why the lucky stiff".
15:25:35 <elliott> The this in question is <elliott> Everyone is here... in the future! http://everyoneishereinthefuture.com/one.html.
15:25:50 <Sgeo> elliott, but the question _also_ sounds like a weird grammatical ... oddity
15:26:49 <tswett> Oh, he's the guy that made that poignant guide to Ruby.
15:27:05 <Gregor> Is he trying to make a point, or just smoking a lot of pot?
15:27:25 <elliott> Gregor: Everyone is here in the future!
15:28:12 <Gregor> Everyone is here in the future EXCEPT FOR WHY
15:28:34 <elliott> He just SKIPPED AHEAD INTO THE EVEN FURTHER FUTURE
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15:44:00 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.tenshu.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/2007-07-29-terminator-02-large21.png <-- GUI screen :P
15:45:13 <Gregor> elliott: YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS
15:45:41 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.tenshu.net/terminator/
15:47:06 <Gregor> SLOWEST LOADING PAGE EVER YESSSSSSSS
15:51:27 <cheater00> are there version control systems where the changesets form a category (a cs is an arrow)?
15:54:38 <cheater00> hmm i was thinking of something else
15:54:48 <cheater00> basically of being able to reach any combination of changesets
15:57:36 <cheater00> like say you'd take any set of changes, and it would generate code that is valid
15:58:08 <cheater00> maybe it wouldn't do much (e.g. define functions which don't get called) but it would still be correct code that does what you want it to (hence you only selected those changesets)
15:59:23 <Mathnerd314> that is pretty much the goal of darcs's theory of patches
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15:59:41 <elliott> no, the goal of darcs' theory of patches is to look reasonable if you don't look too closely
16:00:19 <cheater00> Mathnerd314: cool, how is that different from e.g. what bzr does?
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16:05:44 <Mathnerd314> but git stores files instead of changesets, so the idea doesn't really arise
16:07:23 <Mathnerd314> see http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Understanding_Darcs/Patch_theory
16:08:25 <cheater00> lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri796Hx8las
16:08:58 <cheater00> question "plz compare hg to perforce and are you gonna use hg?" answer: "at google we are unique in that we have one giant repository for everything."
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16:12:03 <Gregor> elliott: THEY NEED SCAPE🐐
16:12:05 <cheater00> Gregor: probably the worst google talk i've seen.
16:12:13 <elliott> Gregor: What, patch theory?
16:12:35 <Gregor> elliott: Oh yeah, you have cheater00 blocked, don'tcha :P
16:12:37 <cheater00> Gregor: and they don't seem to have sandwiches there, which they had on all talks i've been to
16:13:21 <Gregor> elliott: THEY NEED 🐐 SANDWICHES
16:15:00 <cheater00> Mathnerd314: that looks really cool
16:15:32 <cheater00> Mathnerd314: but what if i have one changeset A which defines s_list, and another which adds pasta to s_list
16:15:56 <cheater00> Mathnerd314: and i ONLY apply B. will that define s_list with the sole element of pasta?
16:16:54 <cheater00> Gregor: what is this unicode character you are using?
16:16:57 <Vorpal> Gregor, 🐐 <-- whoa, that shows up as [01F410], which is quite a bit longer than usual. What is it supposed to be?
16:17:47 <Gregor> 🐐 regrets your inability to render him.
16:18:29 <Vorpal> Gregor, point me to a font that has it.
16:18:39 <Vorpal> and that I could get on linux
16:19:54 <Gregor> Vorpal: To my knowledge there is no font that supports it yet, but it is in Unicode so nyaa.
16:20:09 <Vorpal> Gregor, so you can't see it either?
16:20:18 <Vorpal> Gregor, so what is it supposed to be?
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16:21:46 <Vorpal> huh, gogling for it turns up nothing relevant. Only a handful hits. And in all cases it is memory addresses or MAC addresses instead.
16:22:20 <Vorpal> Gregor, which unicode version should I look in for this?
16:22:20 <Gregor> Your refusal to support the new era of Unicode GOAT disappoints me.
16:22:36 <Vorpal> Gregor, wait, is this from the private use area?
16:22:53 <Gregor> ... no, that's not part of Unicode X_X
16:23:07 <Vorpal> Gregor, is this in version 6 or version 7?
16:23:10 <elliott> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f410/index.htm
16:23:13 <elliott> second google result for "unicode goat"
16:23:18 <elliott> vorpal is either a liar or can't type two words
16:23:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I googled for 1f410... (and U+1f410 and so on). Weird I got no hits on that
16:24:00 <Gregor> For what it's worth, it's also the first result for "u+1f410"
16:24:49 <Vorpal> wait, I typed an extra zero at the start. Which should be equivalent. And was how text rendering showed it here (probably rounds up to even number of hex digits)
16:25:24 <Vorpal> elliott, are there other animals around that code point or what?
16:25:26 <cheater00> does it find the page if you search without the zero?
16:25:27 <Gregor> It's certainly not Google-equivalent.
16:25:52 <Vorpal> cheater00, yep it finds it then
16:26:50 <Gregor> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f3e9/index.htm <-- another zodiac sign
16:29:16 <Gregor> I was born under that sign.
16:31:27 <elliott> Gregor was also born in the Year of the Whorehouse.
16:37:21 <elliott> Gregor: No, love hotel is the zodiac sign, silly.
16:45:10 <cheater00> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3O3UHSGLng
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17:05:09 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:05:17 <lambdabot> elliott said 2h 20m 36s ago: Is blatant, persistent lying a bannable offence days?
17:05:41 <elliott> i don't even remember typing that
17:05:46 <oerjan> no. that's not even grammatical.
17:06:16 * oerjan ponders if _someone_ didn't know that lambdabot could give messages in public
17:07:00 <oerjan> alternatively it _could_ be that the message is self-referential
17:07:19 <oerjan> let's assume the latter for the peace of the channel.
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17:09:23 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:09:28 <lambdabot> lying_scum said 29s ago: Yes, that may be so.
17:09:43 <oerjan> elliott: looks like lambdabot is easy to fool
17:10:12 <oerjan> (possibly leaving the channel before changing nick was excessive)
17:10:50 <oerjan> actually i also wanted to check that lambdabot accepted privmsges outside the channel, so no.
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17:16:31 <oerjan> `addquote [After a long monologue] <oklopol> i think i have to escape this heated discussion before it becomes a flamewar
17:16:35 <HackEgo> 357) [After a long monologue] <oklopol> i think i have to escape this heated discussion before it becomes a flamewar
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17:22:42 <cheater00> oerjan: do you think fogcreek could be a good place to work?
17:23:12 <oklopol> oerjan: so now, how about a game of mangle-the-theorem?
17:24:53 <oklopol> you were answering cheater00 weren't you
17:25:09 <oerjan> i didn't even notice his message actually
17:25:38 <oerjan> yes he pinged me but somehow my brain assumed that was just the "haha" message i'd already read
17:25:51 <oerjan> also, i have no idea what fogcreek is
17:26:51 <oerjan> ok i know the first three there
17:27:14 <cheater00> i posted a link to their "work for us" ad
17:27:31 <cheater00> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3O3UHSGLng
17:27:47 <oerjan> i'm definitely not the person to ask, anyway.
17:28:06 <oklopol> it's pretty hard to find a nontrivial one that fits in an irc message
17:28:16 <cheater00> if they said "hey oerjan, come work for us" would you do it?
17:28:39 <oerjan> especially if it means going to the US
17:28:49 <oklopol> oerjan: we have a professor spot opening afaik
17:29:33 <cheater00> oerjan: say their offices were in a big city near to where you live
17:29:40 <cheater00> oerjan: would that change anything?
17:29:59 <oerjan> i don't _really_ know who they are, beyond presumably running stack overflow.
17:30:19 <oerjan> i am also not really a programmer.
17:30:51 <oerjan> my education is mathematics.
17:33:12 <cheater00> what if they needed a mathematician
17:34:40 <oklopol> how the fuck do you "need" a mathematician :D
17:35:41 <cheater00> well, say you're doing something like realtime and need some differential equations solved
17:35:51 <cheater00> or need someone to help you implement a kalman filter
17:36:07 <cheater00> or need someone to tell you how to optimize your search algorithm
17:40:02 <oerjan> my former coauthor rustad did manage to get a job in the oil industry, i think he's mostly doing numerical simulations
17:40:44 <oklopol> i would like to make a complaint about the use of "manage" in that sentece
17:41:15 <oerjan> well, as someone with mainly math education
17:41:34 <oerjan> (he did take a few courses on petroleum simulation though)
17:43:27 <oerjan> also i don't see what's wrong with that "manage"
17:45:10 <oklopol> oerjan: well i'd've rephrased "had to get an inferior job at some stupid oil thingie"
17:45:20 <oklopol> managed sounds like he actually wanted to
17:45:49 <oerjan> yeah he did sort of give up on staying at university
17:46:17 <oerjan> there weren't enough openings
17:48:25 <oklopol> it's sad that the society tries to force even the intelligent people to do meaningless shit
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19:55:09 <augur> http://software.jessies.org/terminator/
19:55:19 <augur> i almost thought elliott had been involved in this
19:55:22 <augur> turns out its elliott hughs
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19:58:27 <elliott> augur: i've actually used terminator and some other software by him.
19:58:41 <oerjan> THE SKYNET IS YOUR FAULT
19:58:53 <augur> elliott: YOU AHVE MAGIC D:
19:59:51 <elliott> oerjan: pls make http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%92 less ugly and unreadable
20:00:04 <augur> (less ugly) and (unreadable)
20:00:10 <augur> or less (ugly and unreadable)
20:00:43 <augur> never know if you want your wikis like your programing languages
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20:05:59 <elliott> the paragraph spacing is all off because of the line height being off
20:06:02 <elliott> because of subscripts and superscripts
20:06:18 <elliott> see first two paragraphs in computational class section
20:06:22 <elliott> oerjan: do you like my new user page
20:06:25 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:ehird
20:06:52 <oerjan> elliott: RECENT DIFFS ARE KIND OF HARD TO READ
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20:07:13 <elliott> oerjan: here's the lowdown: FUCK HTML
20:07:19 <elliott> FUCK MEDIAWIKI'S IDEA OF HTML
20:07:26 * elliott expands his invention list
20:08:02 <olsner> elliott: will you be reinventing the web?
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20:10:17 <cheater00> fucking html is actually a good idea
20:11:04 <cheater00> (said he, noticing that tim berners-lee has just signed on to freenode.)
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20:33:45 <ais523> elliott: I fear you're overusing [[Category:Shameful]]; the more things it's on, the less the impact
20:34:17 <elliott> ais523: that's my language!
20:34:36 <elliott> ais523: if I didn't mark it shameful I'd have to commit seppuku or something
20:35:44 <ais523> [[Category:Shameful]] was funnier when it was only on one language
20:36:49 <elliott> ais523: well, it's hard to argue it doesn't belong on FURscript
20:37:17 <elliott> ais523: and, errr, it looks like the author of BrainFNORD added it to theirs
20:37:32 <ais523> if people are adding it to their own langs, what is the world coming to?
20:37:35 <augur> furscript, a language for furries?
20:38:13 <elliott> i'll remove it from brainfnord, it's only as shameful as Ook!
20:38:26 <elliott> PH's brain-bricking is sufficient punishment for that, we don't need it to be marked shameful too
20:38:31 <ais523> augur: it appears to be just a list of random commands
20:39:01 <elliott> i love how every time i edit my user page it completely clogs up recent changes
20:39:04 <elliott> BECAUSE AIS523 BROKE THE PREVIEW BUTTON
20:39:39 <elliott> at least i've produced the best nesting of html tags ever
20:39:39 <ais523> elliott: it triggers on attempts even to show the source code, though
20:40:02 <elliott> ais523: erm, just clicking to edit the page doesn't, I don't think?
20:40:16 <ais523> it does if you have preview on edit turne don
20:40:27 <ais523> and on a wiki like Esolang, it's normally a very useful feature
20:41:57 <Sgeo> Well, too late to back out of paying $100
20:42:49 <oerjan> <elliott> BECAUSE AIS523 BROKE THE PREVIEW BUTTON <-- what!
20:43:09 <ais523> oerjan: I didn't break it, I changed it so that it was impossible for a page to change the entire edit interface
20:43:21 <ais523> which prevents ehird's page breaking everyone else's attempts to edit it
20:43:49 <elliott> nobody else uses that feature :)
20:44:12 <ais523> hmm, I just realised calling you ehird there was not a mistake but technically correct
20:44:20 <ais523> as the user page belongs to ehird
20:44:24 <ais523> even if the IRC persion is elliott
20:47:26 <oerjan> ais523: um so previewing other pages won't clog up recent changes?
20:47:39 <ais523> oerjan: previewing any page doesn't clog up recent changes
20:48:00 <ais523> the difference is that elliott's page no longer replaces the entire interface when previewed, and he claims that's broken as it doesn't look like he wants it to look then
20:48:58 <oerjan> ah so it's only that he cannot see the result properly without saving
20:51:40 <oerjan> <elliott> well turn it off then :D <-- that's a personal preference, which i incidentally _do_ have set
20:52:56 <cheater00> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_%28Programmiersprache%29
20:53:47 <olsner> "E, the secure distributed pure-object platform and p2p scripting language."
21:00:41 <Sgeo> Since when is E a scripting language?
21:01:22 <oklopol> olsner: what are you like as a person
21:03:12 <olsner> oklopol: "what are you? like a person?" yes, I'm very similar to a person :D
21:03:25 <olsner> or so I like to believe, anyway
21:03:56 <oklopol> olsner: you seem to have made a tokenization error
21:04:08 <augur> worfs first language (maybe second, but certainly native) was almost certainly belarussan
21:04:33 <olsner> oklopol: yeah, thought it was funnier tokenized my way, so I retokenized it
21:04:50 <oerjan> olsner: YOU MISSED A WORD
21:05:21 <elliott> <ais523> the difference is that elliott's page no longer replaces the entire interface when previewed, and he claims that's broken as it doesn't look like he wants it to look then
21:05:27 <elliott> ais523: umm, to clarify, it looks NOTHING like the result
21:05:32 <olsner> oerjan: no, I removed it
21:05:33 <elliott> i would be fine if it just showed it and then the edit view
21:05:38 <elliott> but it just turns into a mess
21:05:49 <elliott> <oerjan> ah so it's only that he cannot see the result properly without saving
21:11:15 <Gregor> http://demos.sonivoxmi.com/sonicimplantssoundfontenstrings.mp3 <-- I'm trying to decide if this demo reel is good enough to be worth dropping the money on the soundfont ...
21:11:42 <Gregor> It's ... not great ... but for strings, not terrible.
21:12:02 <cheater00> it sounds like a really nice DOS game theme song
21:12:40 <elliott> The strings sound a bit artificial to me.
21:12:45 <elliott> Though I'd be amazed if they DIDN'T.
21:13:03 <Gregor> Strings are a bitch X_X
21:13:41 <elliott> How much does the soundfont cost
21:13:43 * Sgeo throws some "" at Gregor
21:14:13 <elliott> Converting from Gregor-money that's like 3 cents, go for it! [UNICODE TROLL FACE]
21:15:22 <fizzie> I think I heard that some people at the acoustics lab are dabbling with physics-based string instrument synthesis. I have no idea how good their things are; probably not very. They might not have any demos available.
21:15:41 <elliott> fizzie: Well, better than the state of speech to text.
21:16:03 <fizzie> They have a kantele synthesis thing, which I guess is pretty obscure.
21:16:28 <fizzie> (No new papers on that after 2005, so I guess it's not an active project.)
21:16:44 <elliott> Ah well. More active than speech-to-text.
21:17:06 <fizzie> "Research and synthesis of the tanbur, a traditional Turkish long-necked lute, the ud, a short-necked arabic lute, and the Renaissance lute."
21:19:10 <Zwaarddijk> I just had a guitar remade to be more ud-like
21:19:53 <cheater00> fizzie: you mean karplus strong synthesis?
21:21:24 <Zwaarddijk> switched the neck to rosewood, removed the frets, filled the slots with something, polished it
21:21:52 <Zwaarddijk> of course, normal uds have shorter necks relative to the body size, and double course strings
21:22:06 <Zwaarddijk> (oh, flatwound strings from now on, to reduce wear on the neck)
21:26:01 <elliott> "He left the site for a few days in October 2008, following a bitter feud over whether the Spanish Inquisition constituted British comedy."
21:28:12 <oerjan> the whole spanish institution was just a british joke that got very out of hand
21:28:25 <Zwaarddijk> cheater00: it is more like an oud now than before, though
21:28:29 * oerjan swats his hands -----###
21:28:38 <Zwaarddijk> cheater00: I play a lot of jazz, so flatwounds fit in that style
21:28:44 <cheater00> does the rosewood make so much difference?
21:29:20 <Zwaarddijk> well, maple isn't good on fretless guitars
21:29:44 <cheater00> so a fretless guitar is immediately an oud? :p
21:30:10 <cheater00> i thought a defining thing for the oud was the thick neck
21:30:13 <Zwaarddijk> instruments aren't really a discretely classifiable all the time
21:30:34 <fizzie> cheater00: I think rather something more physically accurate, or at least more complicated; but I don't really know what they've done. Short description for the latest kantele paper says: "Two algorithms for simulating tension modulated strings (e.g. kantele strings) are presented: a spatially distributed waveguide model and a finite difference model. The waveguide model is essentially the same as below, whereas the finite difference model uses time-domain inte
21:30:34 <fizzie> rpolation for modulating the wave velocities. Stability issues for both models are discussed."
21:30:48 <Zwaarddijk> in some classificcations, what's considered distinct for ouds is picked strings + fretless
21:31:16 <Zwaarddijk> which is not very common - ouds and shamisen, basically?
21:31:23 <cheater00> fizzie: sounds like karplus-strong to me
21:31:39 <cheater00> oh wait, i read waveguide as waveshaper for some reason
21:31:43 <Zwaarddijk> and the shamisen is distinct by having cat- or dogskin
21:32:24 <cheater00> but no, fretless instruments are not uncommon
21:32:34 <fizzie> The "below" refers to: "Nonlinear kantele strings are modeled using a waveguide string with spatially distributed fractional delay filters. When the delay time of the fractional delay filters is varied, tension modulation nonlinearity can be simulated." So I guess it's sort-of related in any case.
21:33:02 <Zwaarddijk> cheater00: most fretless are bowed, though
21:33:10 <Zwaarddijk> which is the distinct thing about the oud
21:33:41 <Zwaarddijk> the shamisen is a bit like a banjo: it's stretched around a frame
21:34:47 <Zwaarddijk> plucked fretless insturments are more common in the far east
21:37:01 <cheater00> my recent musical instrument discovery was the nyckelharpa
21:37:38 <cheater00> yeah my buddy is an expert on those
21:37:48 <cheater00> he's got like a zillion cds on them
21:38:03 <cheater00> and he lent me one, he said i'm not so bad for someone who never held a bow in his life
21:39:18 <Zwaarddijk> currently I am practicing a lot of microtonal sales
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21:39:54 <Zwaarddijk> cheater00: that's up to how you tune them, no?
21:39:55 <cheater00> but really.. with fretless.. you're mostly doing glissandos, and listening to the beats between your voicings and other people's
21:40:12 <cheater00> they have fixed scales. they're sort-of fretted.
21:40:26 <Zwaarddijk> I guess you tune those to pure fifths or somesuch?
21:40:27 <cheater00> there's only one right way to tune the strings
21:40:43 <cheater00> EDAE or something like that, i don't remember
21:40:47 <Zwaarddijk> hm, are the fixed scales just intonation?
21:41:12 <cheater00> it has keys, a keyboard, you can't re-tune a single key
21:42:09 <cheater00> depends on the harpa you have, there's no exactly single set standard
21:42:22 <cheater00> there isn't even a single standard for the keyboard, which is a problem in its own right
21:42:23 <Zwaarddijk> what do you mean by them being microtonal then?
21:42:33 <cheater00> you learn a fingering technique on one and it doesn't work on another one
21:42:51 <cheater00> i mean that they have tones in steps smaller than the semitone
21:43:06 <Zwaarddijk> so roughly how is that scale constructed?
21:43:08 <cheater00> that's my definition of microtonality
21:43:23 <Zwaarddijk> I include any thing that is not exactly 12-tet in microtonal music
21:43:47 <Zwaarddijk> because like, even if you have quartertones, the usual use of those in music that has them would be the neutral second
21:43:48 <cheater00> you know those things already existed in the 14th century
21:43:55 <Zwaarddijk> so you seldom actually use the quartertone
21:44:35 <Zwaarddijk> if the main non-standard step is three quartertones, not one?
21:44:41 <cheater00> well yes it's not 12 tone equal temp
21:45:10 <cheater00> it's some weird wacky tuning i don't know
21:45:38 <Zwaarddijk> equal temps were basically only theoretically known until the 19th c.
21:45:48 <Zwaarddijk> when we got the technology to actually tune them
21:46:29 <Zwaarddijk> anyways, re: microtonality, there's a bunch of good just-inotnation intervals outside of 12-tet that sound good in rock and blues and jazz and so on
21:46:48 <Zwaarddijk> it's about a sixth-tone flat from the dominant seventh
21:47:26 <cheater00> you know i find with fretless it's less important to think about scales
21:47:31 <cheater00> and more important to think about clusters
21:47:51 <cheater00> yeah it's basically a way to put your fingers
21:48:04 <cheater00> and you repeatedly can hit the same intervals
21:48:19 <Zwaarddijk> (I normally use it to signify stacked second-chords)
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21:48:35 <cheater00> well i'm mostly talking out of my ass :D
21:48:43 <cheater00> so i might be using the term wrongly
21:48:57 <cheater00> but like, if you're doing fretless, you end up doing a lot of small glissandos anyways
21:49:02 <Zwaarddijk> that one can learn to repeat a bit like such "clusters"
21:49:16 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: what you get if you strike your hand down on a piano on keys that are next to each other
21:49:26 <cheater00> and the important bit is to quickly hit a sonorous or discordant chord quickly
21:50:19 <Zwaarddijk> for a while I actually had my guitar tuned so I'd easily get clusters
21:50:27 <Zwaarddijk> with full on dist, it was a pretty neat thing
21:50:36 <Zwaarddijk> could work out nice in some avant-punk style
21:50:48 <oklopol> my tuning is A Eb A Eb A Eb A
21:51:33 -!- elliott has joined.
21:51:40 <oklopol> it's the best i've come up with
21:52:26 <oklopol> Zwaarddijk: i just use A Eb A chords
21:53:04 <oklopol> nothing currently, but hopefully starting a new project soon
21:53:41 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK-JiyDbp7E here's my current favorite band prolly
21:54:44 <Zwaarddijk> then I understand why you'd tune your guitar in tritones
21:54:53 <oklopol> although i also like playing simple stuff
21:55:24 <Zwaarddijk> I have considered switching to a seven-string string-set on my guitar, because the high e sounds a bit too muffled now
21:55:25 <oklopol> Zwaarddijk: it's not guaranteed we'll get it to work even for metal, but i like trying crazy things.
21:57:01 <Zwaarddijk> I would like to introduce some microtonal harmonies into all kinds of genres.
21:57:11 <Zwaarddijk> but another dream I have is to arrange a lot of death metal classics for big band
21:57:24 <Zwaarddijk> and vice versa, arrange a lot of swing classics as death metal
21:57:39 <Zwaarddijk> maybe I should do it with black metal instead and just wait for the death threats
21:57:54 <oklopol> i'd love to hear faceless played with something like an orchestra
21:58:18 <Zwaarddijk> doing things with a classical orchestra
21:58:28 <Zwaarddijk> (I find it somewhat pretentious, and I don't think it sounds that good, ultimately)
21:58:32 <Zwaarddijk> would be fun doing that with a big band instead
21:59:02 <oklopol> doing faceless with a classical orchestra would be nowhere close to what metal people do with orchestras
21:59:21 <elliott> if you use an orchestra you aren't allowed to use guitars of any kind
21:59:38 <Zwaarddijk> I actually considered for a while to try and get a band together that'd do like
22:00:08 <Zwaarddijk> relatively complex three-voice (or even four-voice) arrangements of metal songs
22:00:09 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASzIvMddyxA <<< the squeak thing the guitars keep repeating here, consider 3 violins playing a high cluster
22:00:29 <Zwaarddijk> like, some angel dust-era faith no more and that kind of style
22:01:14 <lament> you know what sucks, any attempt to combine metal and classical
22:01:37 <Zwaarddijk> and the metalheads that think "metal is the new classical"
22:01:47 <Zwaarddijk> no it's not - one fucking rule: parallel fifths, man!
22:02:13 <oklopol> in the sense that metal is where the interesting stuff happens nowadays
22:02:27 <Zwaarddijk> the interesting stuff happens in far underground places.
22:02:38 <lament> in the sense that it's one of the few remaining genres where people are interested in technical ability
22:03:04 <lament> and it's melody-based, roughly
22:03:07 <Zwaarddijk> lament: yeah but throughout common practice, parallel fifths were banned, and common practice is still pretty important a guideline for what to consider properly classical
22:03:15 <lament> Zwaarddijk: no, that's bullshit
22:03:29 <lament> parallel fifths are like the rule about not ending a sentence with a preposition
22:03:52 <lament> in metal they're part of chords
22:03:58 <lament> just like they're part of chords everywhere else
22:03:59 <elliott> that's not really relevant is it
22:04:05 <lament> it's just that in metal there's nothing else in those chords :)
22:04:06 <elliott> "this prescriptivist detail differs, THERE IS NO RELATION!!!!"
22:04:28 <lament> in much classical, too
22:04:44 <lament> and you should think of a power chord as one voice
22:04:49 <Zwaarddijk> yeah but the metalheads that fawn over it
22:04:50 <lament> not two separate parallel voices
22:04:55 <lament> because that's what it sounds like
22:04:57 <elliott> i tripped over my power chord
22:05:12 <Zwaarddijk> lament: and the reason why they're forbidden is that it sounds like one voice.
22:05:18 <elliott> wow, that's the first time i've ever seen anyone actually wite hoi polloi
22:05:35 <Zwaarddijk> cool guitars: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXaIwvXa3SI
22:05:41 <lament> they do sound like one voice
22:06:06 <lament> a bunch of organ voices play several notes an octave apart
22:06:08 <Zwaarddijk> lament: well my main objection really is that the metalheads that do fawn over how it's the new classical are just pretentious fucks
22:06:25 <Zwaarddijk> lament: every instrument has frequencies octaves apart
22:06:36 <lament> yeah, same with fifths
22:06:38 <oerjan> <Zwaarddijk> but another dream I have is to arrange a lot of death metal classics for big band <-- iiuc you'd have to change your nick to Sverdvoll then...
22:07:41 <Zwaarddijk> lament: actually there's usually no overtone at the fifth
22:07:57 <Zwaarddijk> and at the third's octave's octave, etc
22:08:10 <lament> all i know is a power chord is supposed to sound like one thick sound
22:08:14 <Zwaarddijk> but still, the only thing metal shares with classical is fascination with technique
22:08:19 <Zwaarddijk> but some classical had fascination with voice leading
22:08:36 <Zwaarddijk> and that's easier to find in pop music these days!
22:08:48 <Zwaarddijk> (tho' it's probably most prominent in jazz)
22:09:42 <Zwaarddijk> so anyone could find some reason to claim having inherited something from classical
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22:21:09 <oklopol> "<Zwaarddijk> that makes ower chords a tad awkward" erm why? do you use all fifths or what
22:21:26 <oklopol> power chords are easier with tritone tuning than with all fourths
22:21:47 <Zwaarddijk> oklopol: yeah but if you want a full seven-string power chord, ...
22:22:38 <oklopol> i don't like playing scales over fifth jumps, and i don't like having different jumps between strings
22:22:41 <oklopol> i'm not smart enough for that
22:23:10 <oklopol> could never really learn the guitar before i retuned it to all-fourths
22:24:10 <Zwaarddijk> the G-H thing does help a lot with some chord voicings if you need them
22:24:38 <oklopol> but i don't do chords that much
22:24:43 <Zwaarddijk> and I have noticed sccales are more natural on the five-stringed bass than on a normal guitar
22:24:52 <Zwaarddijk> when I do chords, I generally either play classical stuff or jazz
22:25:09 <Zwaarddijk> and in jazz, you can play pretty minimalistic voicings
22:26:16 <oklopol> i don't know what voicings are
22:27:08 <Zwaarddijk> the way you arrange the tones of the chord
22:27:53 <Zwaarddijk> like, if you play a G7 in jazz, you'll prolly have a G (or a D), an F and a H
22:28:20 <Zwaarddijk> depending on the previous and next chords, and so on
22:28:43 <Zwaarddijk> one common way of playing that would be 3x34xx
22:29:14 <Zwaarddijk> altho' x534xx would intrude less on the bass territory
22:30:39 <oklopol> i think i'm seeing a pattern here
22:30:51 <oklopol> you need a 3-subset of the chord!
22:31:42 <Zwaarddijk> because that's the most dissonant part of the chord, and hence the most defining part of it
22:31:50 <oklopol> i'm sure you can play almost anything in context
22:33:36 <oklopol> or just in general you can stick a C# in a G7?
22:33:55 <Zwaarddijk> if you have a song with the chord progression
22:34:05 <lament> you know what sucks? jazz
22:35:08 <Zwaarddijk> you could also probably switch the G7 to a G#min6?
22:36:23 <Zwaarddijk> Dmin6 probably won't cover as a substitute dominant though?
22:37:14 <oklopol> i guess we can agree on all kinds of random shit sounding good
22:38:05 <lament> unfortunately it's far from random
22:38:14 <lament> jazz theory is a prescriptivist paradise
22:38:19 <Zwaarddijk> I wonder what kind of grammar modern treatments of harmony require to be expressed
22:38:34 <Zwaarddijk> lament: jazz approach is far more descriptive than prescriptive
22:39:00 <Zwaarddijk> someone invents something and it sounds good? theorists will want to explain why it sounds good, and come up with a description
22:39:09 <Zwaarddijk> others read waht he did, and learn from it
22:39:26 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:39:40 <zzo38> Play chess, where if player coughs, he loses one of his pawns.
22:39:44 <lament> yeah and they can all go fuck themselves. what a bunch of losers.
22:40:05 <Zwaarddijk> lament: I guess that's your business, to tell them that?
22:40:41 <lament> i'm quite prescriptive in my approach to jazz
22:41:31 <oklopol> that sounds better than the approach to music i've seen among the metal people i know, "just play whatever sounds good"
22:41:45 <oklopol> although lament loves that stuff because he's gay
22:41:56 <oklopol> sounding good is just a distraction
22:43:35 <Zwaarddijk> this is what music should sound like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79rHMifBODs
22:43:53 <Zwaarddijk> or this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAFTpLzMerw
22:46:11 <Zwaarddijk> (the same musician has composed both of those)
22:46:48 <zzo38> Different music should sound like different! Including, piano, organ, harp, computer, equal temperant, just intonation, Bohlen-Pierce, slow, fast, loud, quiet, major, minor, etc.
22:47:06 <elliott> my favourite instrument is the quiet
22:47:25 <lament> my favourite instrument is the shut the fuck up
22:47:30 <zzo38> I don't think the quiet is an instrument...?
22:48:08 <elliott> lament: can you set +m for a while, that would be awesome
22:48:15 <zzo38> Equal temperament is not an instrument either, although most musical instruments can be used with it.
22:48:18 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: my second-favourite instrument is the loud
22:48:29 <elliott> i've made entire albums just by alternating quiet and loud
22:48:47 <Zwaarddijk> elliott: sounds like a rather revolutionary approach to music
22:49:00 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: i even play the MEDIUM VOLUME
22:49:06 <Zwaarddijk> I thought quiet and loud never existed in mixed ensembles?
22:49:16 <elliott> if i'm feeling really avant garde
22:49:26 <zzo38> Yes, that is why you can use the pianoforte instrument to make an album that alternates quiet and loud, and even medium volume. (Commonly the pianoforte is called "piano" for short)
22:50:00 <elliott> you think THRASH fuckers invented the fast?
22:50:05 <elliott> you really ARE a clueless moron
22:50:10 <elliott> beethoven invented the fast in 1994
22:50:26 <elliott> anyway fuck you all, i'm going to go play the just intonation
22:50:44 <lament> is my dick a musical instrument
22:51:02 <elliott> the just intonation is an euphemism for the penis
22:51:03 <Zwaarddijk> lament: blow it and tell us if it made a sound!
22:51:26 <elliott> my favourite instrument is the minor
22:51:30 <oklopol> lament: do you play the fast with it?
22:51:36 <elliott> the sound it makes when you blow it is just incredible
22:51:43 <Zwaarddijk> elliott: but those are illegal to riff on
22:51:59 <elliott> sometimes i even smash my just intonation into the minor to make some music
22:52:12 <elliott> one such piece i performed is titled "My Penis in A Minor", you can find it on the googles.
22:52:15 <Zwaarddijk> and playing licks on the minor gets you behind bars
22:52:16 <oklopol> it's funny because he actually is a pedophile
22:52:23 <elliott> oklopol: that is precisely why it is funny.
22:52:39 <oklopol> that is, he likes the girls on his class
22:52:52 <lament> elliott: are you still 12?
22:53:01 <elliott> lament: no, i'm now actually 11
23:04:23 <cheater00> oklopol: i heard there's some overlap between bands who do heavy metal like what you linked, and dark psy
23:04:38 <cheater00> probably because the tempo's the same and they're both scary-music genres
23:05:01 <oklopol> the faceless mostly sings about aliens and space stuff
23:05:08 <oklopol> i don't think they try to be very scary
23:05:34 <cheater00> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqprNp2J1wQ
23:06:17 <oklopol> that's like the antifaceless. that's the faceful.
23:06:44 <cheater00> wouldn't the antifaceless be like the ... buttless?
23:07:47 <oklopol> olsner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Cz2dFTlSA
23:08:52 <oklopol> the most progressive thing i've found that i can actually understand
23:08:55 -!- FireFly has joined.
23:09:08 <oklopol> not that progressive, but then again i'm not very smart
23:09:29 <Lymia> Is fixed point with 64-bit values usually faster, or are floating point operations usually faster?
23:09:46 <elliott> They don't give equivalent results, so how can we compare?
23:10:02 <olsner> I think xor will probably be even faster
23:10:12 <elliott> I think nop will probably be fastest of them all.
23:11:20 <cheater00> oklopol: that faceless track is funny in a cheezy way
23:11:56 <oklopol> funny? you must have some sort of braindamage
23:12:21 <cheater00> and no, not brain damage, just past my bedtime
23:12:25 <oklopol> i'm very protective of my little facelessie
23:13:33 <oklopol> that song i just linked isn't really their best work
23:15:16 <oklopol> also i should prolly listen to more stuff, but i have the same problem as with everything except math, i only listen to music because i want to *not* think for once, so i prefer listening to the same stuff over and over again.
23:15:33 <oklopol> i guess that's common enough
23:16:11 <cheater00> but like, i started listening to operas lately and it's good braindead music
23:16:45 <oklopol> no i don't get it, can you explain
23:16:55 <oklopol> (but i'm not sure i'll get it)
23:18:24 <cheater00> no sorry this is only for smart people
23:18:32 <cheater00> i guess it's a high-brow one for ya
23:18:52 <cheater00> don't worry though i bet you'll be fine watching your eastenders and eating your cod n chippies
23:19:25 <oklopol> when others have gotten there i'm still like wait what
23:19:29 <cheater00> well maybe one day you'll have a son who can only gain control of his left foot and will become a writer
23:19:50 <oklopol> i don't even get that reference
23:20:13 <cheater00> never seen that movie? it's a classic
23:20:22 <oklopol> oh yeah i've seen that on family guy
23:20:53 <oklopol> not so funny now that i know it's a reference to something
23:21:17 <cheater00> yeah it's a reference to christy brown, a real person.
23:21:50 <oklopol> real persons are even worse than movies
23:21:58 <cheater00> elliott: make sure to send us a postcard from kerberos
23:22:03 <elliott> one day i will make a film about oklopol
23:22:17 <elliott> even though it'll just be like
23:22:21 <elliott> 120 minutes of constant oklopol fanboyism
23:22:34 <cheater00> oklopol: yeah but at least with real persons you don't have to rewind them after watching
23:22:35 <oklopol> 120 minutes of me ircing naked in my armchair
23:23:10 <cheater00> what better movie for oklopol fans than oklopol naked
23:23:28 <oklopol> i've linked a vid of me playing the piano naked here once
23:23:29 <cheater00> starting with the first second and ending with the last
23:24:38 <cheater00> oklopol: i think there's some operatic heavy metal too
23:24:57 <oklopol> i was totally into nightwish as a kid (i still like it)
23:26:59 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO7HvBLtt1g&feature=related this stuff
23:27:25 <oklopol> that's a weird version but anyhoe
23:28:26 <oklopol> not really "operatic" at all i suppose
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23:40:55 <elliott> That tswett character should be back now.
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00:07:11 <tswett> I definitely won't be present in any shape for about ten more minutes.
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00:17:35 <tswett> Nope, I'm not here just yet. Give it one more minute.
00:18:15 <tswett> Hi, everyone. How's it going?
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00:40:29 <tswett> Are you subtly hinting at something?
00:40:55 <elliott> I will, however, note that you seem to be 40 minutes late.
00:40:57 <elliott> Or is it 20 minutes early?
00:41:38 <tswett> Nah, it's 40 minutes late.
00:41:43 <tswett> Except I arrived about 20 minutes ago.
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01:13:49 <Gregor> I think it's time for me to write a conductor program >_>
01:13:49 <Gregor> With Gregor Brand Repeatability™
01:14:26 <elliott> This snetence will neer be said again.
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01:33:00 <zzo38> I do not like the page User:Ehird, it is too slow.
01:34:17 <Sgeo> zzo38, use a browser that was norn born out of NIH syndrome?
01:35:49 <zzo38> It is slow with all of them.
01:36:12 <elliott> I doubt you have tried all browsers.
01:36:15 <elliott> Anyway, an HTML page cannot be inherently slow.
01:36:33 <elliott> If you are saying that it renders slowly, that is a factor of your hardware, and your entire software stack. I cannot help you.
01:36:52 <elliott> I don't think anything is forcing you to visit that page.
01:40:06 <zzo38> Is better making the browser program that assumes HTML and scripts and stuff is all trying to control you, and refuses to render anything that might be slow, making whenever there is a timer to make a fading effect or sliding effect, speeds it up and does not render the frames in between, and that the script doesn't know your actual screen size, won't load all the images/CSS if there is too many, won't know your scrolled position, etc.
01:40:19 <elliott> My user page is not trying to control you.
01:40:47 <elliott> In fact, it is patently impossible for a web page to control you as a person unless it was, e.g. written by a very crafty superintelligence.
01:40:55 <elliott> Certainly a snowman and a gradient cannot do so.
01:41:09 <elliott> Anyway, all my page is is some <b> tags. There is no JavaScript involved.
01:41:15 <zzo38> elliott: I am not refering to your user page. I am meaning in general, even if it is not true; at least making such assumption makes the computer faster and prevents dumb things on web pages from working.
01:47:14 <zzo38> And if there is a width specification for the entire body, that specification is ignored if it would be less than the natural width (except for printing and print preview, in which case it is not ignored); most timers are not used; what can do if hovering is limited; popups are severely limited and open in a different way than before; keyboard and mouse events are dealt with in a new way; and so on.
01:51:40 <zzo38> Make up a new temperament and make a music
01:53:55 <zzo38> O, go drink hydroxic acid.
01:56:49 <zzo38> O, go drink hydroxic acid, please.
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02:38:04 <Sgeo> Aww, I wanted to ask zzo38 a question
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02:47:18 <Sgeo> elliott, about why he dislikes the removal of mana burn
02:47:33 <elliott> Are you sure you want to know?
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02:56:50 <myndzi> they removed mana burn?
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02:57:14 <myndzi> i guess it doesn't make a huge difference in many cases
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02:57:32 <myndzi> but it would allow people to be less careful (and therefore less skillful) so i don't liek
03:11:21 <Sgeo> http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Mana_burn
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04:29:50 <Patashu> any of you good with pl/sql? since the other channel I tried is idle
04:30:50 <Patashu> (that wasn't me pinging you tho)
04:31:37 <quintopia> elliott: Huffman coding is terrible for compressing short strings. the map from codes->characters takes up at least half the length of the "compressed" string even when optimally encoded itself. is there not something better?
04:34:38 <quintopia> someone should make a tl;dr template for esoteric wiki :P
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05:20:03 <myndzi> well, there's always fixed tables
05:21:30 <myndzi> or something like LZW where the information is implicit, ya?
05:34:08 <quintopia> lzw includes a lot of "instructions" in the text doesn't it?
05:38:35 <quintopia> also lzw appears to be poor at compressing large files compared to other algorithms, why would it do better on short sentences?
05:42:35 <quintopia> but you're right that a fixed huffman table (based on average frequencies of characters in english language) would probably do well enough
05:44:38 <quintopia> i should read up on arithmetic coding
05:49:43 <quintopia> "Recent PPM implementations are among the best-performing lossless compression programs for natural language text."
05:54:50 <myndzi> yes, ppm are pretty awesome, but take a long time
05:55:17 <myndzi> i don't know how lzw compares to say, huffman, but you can't very well complain about small strings and then use large files as the counterexample
05:55:33 <myndzi> unless i guess you're looking for all-around compression?
05:55:48 <myndzi> anyway, there's some crazy version of paq
05:56:03 <myndzi> that has like a neural network that governs the output based on a series of separate predictor models
05:56:14 <myndzi> or something like that
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08:14:22 <Patashu> I have some 'pl/sql'. I airquote it because on a logical level it does what I need to, but it doesn't fit the grammar so it won't compile
08:14:29 <Patashu> can you help me think of ways to rework it so it will? http://pastebin.com/2ECDXR4i
08:15:06 <Patashu> as an example, the holiday function does not compile, because I cannot use a subquery in that context
08:15:32 <Patashu> feel free to ask questions
08:17:24 <cheater-> where exactly are you using it?
08:18:04 <cheater-> um can you repaste the text not in an sql pastebin, because it's annoying to read
08:19:46 <cheater-> so, what server are you using it with?
08:21:50 <Patashu> oh well yeah for obvious reasons you won't be able to run it
08:21:53 <Patashu> since I'm on a dif. server
08:22:15 <Patashu> oracle sql developer anddd a university db
08:22:16 <cheater-> or do you have this theoretical pl/sql supporting server that doesn't exist
08:22:28 <cheater-> there's no reason to use PL for this
08:23:26 <cheater-> you need a table of future dates that have a bit flag for if it's a holiday or not
08:23:26 <Patashu> yeah I was making good work of reducing it down to just joins
08:23:32 <Patashu> and the day of week / holiday logic is a thing
08:23:41 <cheater-> yeah, that's where you use "if"
08:23:48 <Patashu> I thought you can't use if within sql
08:23:52 <Patashu> which is where I'm having trouble
08:24:07 <cheater-> http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/if-statement.html
08:24:19 <cheater-> if mysql can do it, oracle can do it
08:24:31 <Patashu> yeah that looks like it's in mysql's equivalent to pl/sql
08:24:40 <Patashu> I can use if when it's not pure sql
08:24:44 <Patashu> but if it's mid-query I can't
08:24:50 <cheater-> http://www.devx.com/tips/Tip/20063
08:24:56 <cheater-> yeah that's why you do four joins
08:25:21 <cheater-> or actually no.. just two ? i guess
08:25:37 <cheater-> you do one big select for when the future day is a holiday, and one big select for when it's not
08:25:57 <Patashu> a better way of doing it than I was trying
08:26:02 <Patashu> I guess I may as well give in and split it into two queries
08:26:12 <cheater-> when it's not, you just select rows in the past that were not holidays and use a limit clause
08:26:13 <Patashu> so it's not like blurp da blurp da blurp FUCKASS LOGIC IN ONE QUERY
08:26:25 <cheater-> when it is, you do a select over the past holidays with a limit
08:26:51 <cheater-> it's really something you could golf down to a oneliner
08:27:29 <Patashu> let me think about this then come back to you
08:28:53 <Patashu> temp table with the future dates and whether they're a holiday or not
08:28:55 <Patashu> well I'd do that in a loop rather
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08:43:39 <Patashu> I reworked it to be more sql'y http://pastebin.com/3mfVndyc
08:43:45 <Patashu> I think I can make it better but hmmm
08:44:44 <Patashu> I hate the extra join when I'm actually making the forecast, but the way you have to do it is weird, see, you have to make a forecast whenever that tnifrmp/lr/hh/dayofweek combination has data and I have to not make one whenever it doesn't. however, if it turns out to be a holiday I have to not use the energy average from that dayofweek and instead use the holiday one, and put all 0s if none
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08:52:26 <Patashu> wait lol, it's telling me boolean isn't a valid datatype? one second
08:53:10 <Patashu> oh wow, it isn't. it's only valid in pl/sql
08:55:26 <Patashu> I have to store it as a char or number(1) apparently. gay
08:55:30 <cheater99> throw away your code and just build it up the way i told you
08:55:47 <Patashu> yeah, I tried to and I ended up with that again, so I'm obviously not thinking about it the right way
08:56:10 <cheater99> <cheater-> you do one big select for when the future day is a holiday, and one big select for when it's not
08:56:16 <cheater99> (1) <cheater-> when it's not, you just select rows in the past that were not holidays and use a limit clause
08:57:03 <Patashu> also nope, no bit http://ss64.com/ora/syntax-datatypes.html
08:58:09 <cheater99> create table tbool (bool char check (bool in(0,1));
08:58:17 <Patashu> to do this for every future day
08:58:22 <Patashu> should I create a table with 14 dates in it
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08:58:25 <Patashu> or enclose it in a 1..13 loop
08:58:27 <cheater99> but never mind that just use a char
08:58:32 <Patashu> or is there another way, synthesize a table in a subquery?
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08:58:42 <cheater99> ok just do the select before i get tired
09:02:21 <cheater99> i'll brb, need to go out for a sec
09:07:07 <oklopol> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
09:07:36 <Patashu> ok here's my attempt http://pastebin.com/mr46GfAP
09:10:23 <Patashu> oh forgot something in the holiday version
09:18:48 <Patashu> making the controversial step of fixing it until it compiles O_O
09:19:34 <Patashu> GOT IT TO COMPILE *rocks da fuck out*
09:20:51 <Patashu> http://pastebin.com/nN5BpbRW
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09:23:00 <Patashu> it's to make the table of days I'm forecasting to to join against
09:23:04 <Patashu> is there a pure sql way of implementing that?
09:23:19 <cheater99> select trunc(sysdate+rowid) from dual where rowid > 0 and rowid < 14;
09:23:32 <cheater99> i'm not sure what the row id variable is named in oracle
09:23:43 <Patashu> dual only has one row but that's a good idea
09:24:09 <cheater99> but yeah there was something like that
09:25:48 <Patashu> wow, I tried running it, took 28 seconds. that is an awful time
09:26:39 <Patashu> and it didn't appear to make any rows either lmao
09:27:21 <cheater99> still better than your shitty pl/sql
09:27:33 <Patashu> yeah. 5 marks if it compiles
09:27:35 <cheater99> because it can be optimized and is functional
09:27:39 <Patashu> and 5 marks if you can run it and it does something
09:27:43 <Patashu> now it just needs to do the correct thing
09:27:55 <cheater99> i hadn't been through the code yet
09:27:56 <Patashu> any thoughts? here's the output: 0 rows
09:28:05 <Patashu> it ran for 28 seconds then did nothing
09:28:45 <cheater99> from v_nem_rm16 n join forecast_day f on to_char(f.day, 'D') = to_char(n.day, 'D')
09:28:45 <cheater99> and f.day not in (select trunc(holiday_date) from dbp_holiday)
09:29:00 <cheater99> shouldn't that be "where f.day not in ..." ?
09:29:07 <Patashu> btw dbp_holiday has 50 rows and v_nem_rm16 has 47k rows
09:29:31 <Patashu> I'll take it down to just the non-holiday version
09:29:36 <Patashu> then look at the bulkier half
09:30:18 <Patashu> forecast_day is the table holding the 14 days into the future I'm forecasting for
09:30:22 <Patashu> holiday_date has every date that is a holiday
09:30:47 <cheater99> i think your to_char(f.day, 'D') might be screwy
09:31:34 <Patashu> it returns the day of the week, 7 for sunday 1 for monday etc
09:31:42 <Patashu> unless you mean the USAGE of it
09:31:59 <cheater99> so what does the "non holidays" part do
09:32:15 <Patashu> it runs in 0.3 seconds with just the non holidays part
09:33:00 <cheater99> that's probably because v_nem_rm16 is not indexed.
09:33:08 <Patashu> I have no clue if it's indexed or not
09:33:13 <cheater99> ok just select one of em and compare it to the data you get
09:33:40 <Patashu> I have no idea how to check my results except by doing another query
09:34:01 <cheater99> query past days and calculate average by hand.
09:34:54 <cheater99> also, for one combination of your three variables
09:37:33 <Patashu> ok I tried one blah blah combination
09:37:36 <Patashu> looks like the same result
09:37:43 <Patashu> so I'll check that as 'complete or ought to be'
09:37:46 <Patashu> how do I do the non holiday part
09:37:54 <Patashu> because that's what made my query take 30 sec to produce nothing
09:40:58 <Patashu> pastebinning again http://pastebin.com/ysL5UyUP also thanks SO MUCH hahaha
09:43:42 <Patashu> anyway I take it I made a horrible cross join by mistake so I need to Not Do That
09:46:07 <Patashu> oh wow. only took 3 seconds this time
09:47:39 <Patashu> oh. it still only produces 28464 rows :(
09:47:42 <Patashu> so the holiday part isn't doing its job
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09:54:30 <Patashu> okay, this is weird. if I do this:
09:54:31 <Patashu> select trunc(holiday_date) from dbp_holiday
09:54:32 <Patashu> select trunc(day) from v_nem_rm16;
09:54:52 <Patashu> has he not put any past holidays aligning with data? because...that makes it hard to test!
09:55:00 <Patashu> nvl means 'in case of null, put this instead'
09:55:22 <cheater99> ok i think you need to soften your algorithm
09:55:40 <Patashu> it takes a couple of seconds
09:55:52 <Patashu> and (if this were to actually be used in production) it'd run once a day
09:56:05 <cheater99> or is it going to run on a high availability service?
09:56:24 <Patashu> see what I just put up there?
09:56:33 <Patashu> apparently no past holidays align with data he's put in
09:56:37 <Patashu> if that statement is correct
09:57:02 <cheater99> well then try selecting a holiday in the next 14 days
09:57:09 <cheater99> if you don't find any here's your answer
09:57:52 <cheater99> for one of those holidays, select all days from the past on that weekday, and only select rows where that day is a holiday
09:58:32 <Patashu> 22/apr/11 is listed as a holiday, so is 23 and 25, and today's the 10 so
10:00:03 <Patashu> if I do this: select day from forecast_day where day in (select trunc(holiday_date) from dbp_holiday); I get 22nd and 23rd of april back
10:00:21 <Patashu> if I do this: select day from v_nem_rm16 where day in (select trunc(holiday_date) from dbp_holiday);
10:00:31 <Patashu> so yeah I literally can't test it right now unless I make my own data to test it on
10:05:58 <quintopia> myndzi: i doubt it's a neural network. i think it would be easier and have better results if they applied boosting or WM to their set of predictive experts.
10:09:37 <Patashu> I just realized i can't count to 14
10:09:57 <Patashu> like the lecturer literally said
10:10:07 <Patashu> 'you'd be surprised how many people don't forecast for 14 days exactly'
10:10:10 <Patashu> one of those people was almost me
10:16:11 <Patashu> also I really love the setup oracle sql developer gives you
10:16:14 <Patashu> you have a big blank worksheet
10:16:18 <Patashu> you can select any block of text and execute it
10:16:30 <Patashu> so you can just doodle wherever your cursor happens to be I <3 it
10:28:02 <cheater99> also sql developer is like a really old version
10:28:09 <cheater99> what you want is jdeveloper and use the sql bits in that
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10:58:46 <oerjan> This snetence will neer be said again.
11:03:48 <oklopol> you are a real bastard u know that
11:06:26 <oerjan> well at least i'm not complex.
11:12:45 <oklopol> so i have this red stuff that's really hot and i never learn
11:25:04 <cheater99> oerjan: have you read laws of form?
11:26:22 <Vorpal> oerjan, what does "neer" there mean
11:26:44 <oerjan> Vorpal: ask elliott...
11:27:05 <Vorpal> oerjan, he is not here atm, since you used it I presume you know what it means?
11:27:26 <oerjan> i was _assuming_ it meant never.
11:28:11 <oerjan> also you would seem to be missing the joke again
11:28:21 <Vorpal> oerjan, there was a joke?
11:29:00 <oerjan> that would be telling.
11:29:22 <oerjan> but searching for neer in the logs _should_ clear things up.
11:30:42 <cheater99> http://www.4shared.com/get/bBAP7ovO/G-spencer-Brown-Laws-of-Form-1.html
11:47:47 <oklopol> sounds like a load of crap to me
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12:57:24 <cheater99> oklopol: it's a formalization of mathematical logic
12:57:42 <cheater99> oklopol: it allows you to evaluate statements such as "This sentence is false."
13:10:20 <oklopol> :OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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13:38:50 <cheater99> also it was even mentioned by russell as a good book
13:39:10 <cheater99> and in fact the preface quotes him saying he's happy someone came up with this stuff before he died
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15:25:35 <ZOMGMODULES> "There is no support for user defined generics yet. However, three built-in classes List, Map, and Func can be parameterized using a special syntax."
15:26:26 <ZOMGMODULES> sadly, it does not seem to be the SAME special syntax used for all three type constructors
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15:38:42 <Vorpal> <ZOMGMODULES> sadly, it does not seem to be the SAME special syntax used for all three type constructors <-- what language?
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15:47:14 <elliott> 04:31:37: <quintopia> elliott: Huffman coding is terrible for compressing short strings. the map from codes->characters takes up at least half the length of the "compressed" string even when optimally encoded itself. is there not something better?
15:47:21 <elliott> quintopia: fix the map, duh
15:47:33 <elliott> 04:34:38: <quintopia> someone should make a tl;dr template for esoteric wiki :P
15:47:33 <elliott> someone should buy an attention span :)
15:48:05 <elliott> 05:38:35: <quintopia> also lzw appears to be poor at compressing large files compared to other algorithms, why would it do better on short sentences?
15:54:28 <elliott> omg i just missed zomgmodules
15:54:56 <elliott> cheater discovers worst book ever, loves it, zomgmodules appears, disappears
15:55:00 <elliott> that sounds like synchronicity to me
15:55:15 * elliott tries to find the author's proof of riemann hypothesis
15:55:32 <elliott> [[In a 1976 letter to the Editor of Nature, Spencer-Brown claimed a proof of the four-color theorem, which is not computer-assisted.[2] The preface of the 1979 edition of Laws of Form repeats that claim, and further states that the generally accepted computational proof by Appel, Haken, and Koch has 'failed' (page xii). Spencer-Brown's claimed proof of the four-color theorem has yet to find any defenders; Kauffman provides a detailed review of pa
15:55:38 <elliott> mmf where's the riemann one!
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15:56:44 <elliott> http://www.mathematik.uni-muenchen.de/~linde/weblog/GSB-RHproof.pdf
15:57:51 <elliott> http://www.lawsofform.org/gsb/nature.html ;; ooh, the four colour theorem too!
15:57:57 <elliott> his genius knows no bounds
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16:11:33 <Vorpal> <elliott> omg i just missed zomgmodules <-- "just"? It was about over 15 minutes.
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16:14:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I presume he didn't publish either in peer reviewed papers?
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16:41:28 <elliott> anyway 15 minutes is 0 seconds, on a global scale
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16:45:51 <Vorpal> elliott, well, on a truly global scale, you just missed Archimedes too.
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17:20:30 <Vorpal> elliott, which MI game do you think is best?
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17:34:36 <Vorpal> WHY are PC cases so stupid.
17:34:53 <Vorpal> hdds should be at the back, and connectors at the front. Well okay, power connector could be at the back
17:35:33 <Vorpal> I have two usb connectors on the front. And the hdd bays
17:35:44 <Vorpal> when you think about it, this arrangement makes no sense
17:35:57 <Vorpal> unless you have hot-swap bays for the hdds, which I don't
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18:01:52 <zzo38> I invented a Dungeons&Dragons class called "Feater" class, they get feats but not much else
18:03:06 <Vorpal> zzo38, what's the point of it?
18:06:53 <zzo38> To make a new class, and see if it works. I put feats at every even number level and some weaker things at odd number levels
18:07:02 <zzo38> I don't know if it is good, yet.
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18:38:25 <Gregor> Is there a good portable MIDI library? That is, for both reading MIDI files and for communicating with MIDI devices. portmidi/portsmf doesn't look too promising, though it might be sufficient.
18:38:41 <Gregor> (That is, does anybody happen to know one)
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18:38:47 <zzo38> I don't know of one.
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18:40:42 <elliott> Gregor: I suspect the two things will be separate
18:41:00 <Gregor> Well, that's fine, but I just don't know if portmidi/portsmf is the best we can do :P
18:42:43 <elliott> Gregor: portaudio is pretty popular
18:42:45 <elliott> i'm assuming those are part of it
18:43:10 <Gregor> But AFAICT, portmidi sucks and nobody ever uses it :P
18:43:17 <elliott> well only fags use midi, any quetions
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18:48:22 <Sgeo__> zzo38, why do you dislike the removal of mana burn?
18:50:58 <zzo38> Sgeo__: I like the rule of mana burn, it allows some strategy. There are also rules that I didn't like too, such as some of the rules relating to planeswalker cards (I like the idea, but not the implementation; I also dislike the name for confusion with "Plainswalk"), rule about a Aura which is also a creature being discarded, and so on.
18:54:41 <zzo38> I have created some of my own variant rules for a variant of the game, such as rules for "Playercard" type, and for "entities" which is a generalization of "objects", etc. I do, however, like the name "Exile zone" for what was called "remove from game" zone, since it isn't really remove from game. However, I would rather call the "Library" the "draw zone", the "Graveyard" the "discard zone", and maybe calling "in play" (or "Battlefield") the "p
18:55:39 <zzo38> (Did the message get cut off?)
18:59:25 <zzo38> If so, where did it get cut?
19:01:53 <Sgeo__> zzo38, Portal I think had more "game-y" names
19:01:57 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:02:53 <zzo38> ...and maybe calling "in play" (or "Battlefield") the "permanent zone".
19:05:48 <zzo38> I have invented rules for the "playercard" type that counts as both a player and a permanent at the same time. They never get a turn, but if they make choices, their choices are decided by their controller. The number of their life points is equal to the number of their loyalty counters (or perhaps rename them to "life counters"?), loss of life results in loss of counters and gain life results gain counters.
19:05:56 <zzo38> If a playercard wins or loses the game, it is discarded.
19:06:06 <zzo38> (And the game is not over.)
19:06:20 -!- FireFly has joined.
19:07:58 <zzo38> (Note, when I was trying to describe these various of my rules to some other people who played the game, they did not understand and thought I was trying to make the life total into another player.)
19:20:13 <Vorpal> <zzo38> (Did the message get cut off?) <-- you might want an IRC client that automatically splits at the best word boundary
19:25:41 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:26:22 <zzo38> Vorpal: I could program in a maximum if necessary, and then it will ding like some typewriters might.
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20:40:43 <elliott> Gregor will be so happy, they've compiled poppler and freetype to JS.
20:44:57 <ais523> does that mean you can write a JS-only PDF reader?
20:45:11 <elliott> http://syntensity.com/static/poppler.html
20:45:15 <elliott> (external pdf loading only works on FF4)
20:45:29 <elliott> well, I think it's a one-page reader, but whatever
20:48:44 <Vorpal> <elliott> Gregor will be so happy, they've compiled poppler and freetype to JS. <-- uh does that mean they have a generic C->JS compiler?
20:49:27 <Vorpal> how is the performance?
20:50:05 <Vorpal> elliott, how is the performance though
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21:13:22 <ais523> hey elliott: out of all the common household objects found in most homes, which of them would it be most hilarious to actually be sentient and be plotting a conspiracy, but too simple-minded to do anything but set up levels of bureaucracy?
21:13:34 <oerjan> Gregor: um it seems like glogbot doesn't show nick changes...
21:13:41 <elliott> ais523: your question has floored me
21:14:15 <elliott> ais523: mainly because of http://qntm.org/socks :)
21:14:24 <elliott> that may be a cheating way to answer
21:14:58 <Gregor> ais523: The occupants.
21:15:23 <ais523> Gregor: that's a nice lateral-thinking solution, I suppose
21:16:14 <elliott> ais523: indeed it's cheating?
21:16:18 <elliott> ais523: what on earth is this for anyway :)
21:16:47 <ais523> I love the way you assumed there was an actual motive behind the question
21:17:00 <ais523> (there was, but it seems like a surprising assumption)
21:17:19 <elliott> ais523: well, /usually/ you don't ask things quite so... err... that
21:17:27 <elliott> especially not to someone in particular :)
21:17:27 <olsner> assuming that may make answering more fun
21:17:42 <elliott> maybe ais523 is figuring out how solid the defences of his race, the washing machines, are
21:17:47 <elliott> he has concluded that WE SUSPECT NOTHING
21:17:55 <elliott> and will be relaying this information on to his masters
21:19:32 <oerjan> <elliott> 04:34:38: <quintopia> someone should make a tl;dr template for esoteric wiki :P
21:19:54 <oerjan> i've been thinking that the language list should contain one-line descriptions
21:20:11 -!- quintopi1 has changed nick to quintopia.
21:20:12 * elliott grrs as he removes an {{unsigned}}
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21:20:28 <elliott> hey ais523: where do P.S.es go in a letter?
21:20:30 <elliott> after your signature or before?
21:20:35 <elliott> or do you put another signature after the P.S.?
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21:20:43 <ais523> after the signature, no extra signature
21:20:50 <olsner> I start my PS:es after the signature
21:21:10 <ais523> well, you can do PSes in email too
21:21:18 <elliott> observe: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Gravity/w/w/wiki/Talk:Gravity/w/index.php&diff=21796&oldid=21775
21:21:21 <ais523> although there's less of a reason
21:21:26 <elliott> apparently you're meant to have two signatures!
21:21:57 <elliott> `addquote <Gregor> That's for $literals in the parser. It should maybe be atol too, but probably you shouldn't have nonterminals with more than two billion children.
21:22:00 <HackEgo> 358) <Gregor> That's for $literals in the parser. It should maybe be atol too, but probably you shouldn't have nonterminals with more than two billion children.
21:22:45 <olsner> I fairly often have PS:es in my e-mails
21:23:03 <ais523> I thought the purpose of a PS: was so that you could write more after you'd already written/typeset the letter
21:23:27 <olsner> maybe it is/was ... I use them as appendices
21:23:48 <elliott> it's for snarky remarks and footnote-alikes
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21:39:06 <cheater99> http://pophangover.com/wp-content/uploads/will-ferrell-twitter.jpg
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21:46:59 <zzo38> Now both logs seems to be broken.
21:47:33 <elliott> clog is broken, but Gregor's is still on
21:47:50 <zzo38> To me they both seem broken.
21:48:00 <elliott> What is broken about Gregor's?
21:48:24 <zzo38> Gregor's won't load at all. The clog will load, but there is no messages past 12:35:48
21:48:44 <oerjan> it does seem a tad non-loading
21:48:44 <elliott> It loads for me. Your internet connection is probably having problems. clog is indeed broken.
21:48:53 <elliott> It loads perfectly here...
21:49:22 <oerjan> actually i had to reload it too, but then it worked
21:50:27 <oerjan> Gregor: ok the nick change complaint was just the logs failing to update until now, then
21:50:57 <oerjan> although at that time reloading didn't work either
21:51:47 <oerjan> and _now_ it updated without even reloading, just using forward button in browser
21:51:58 -!- clog has joined.
21:52:16 <oerjan> now #esoteric is clogged again!
21:53:20 <zzo38> When I write a letter, the postscript (PS) message is after the "Sincerely" line, especially when writing by hand. When writing a letter by computer I usually do not use a postscript message.
21:53:46 <elliott> i never say anything sincerely
21:53:55 <olsner> who writes letters by hand? really?
21:54:18 <zzo38> olsner: You mean, you don't write letters by hand?
21:54:23 <oerjan> you should sign them Duck, A Quack
21:54:37 <elliott> oerjan: i did that once but then i lost my medical license?
21:54:38 <olsner> afaict, there has been no reason to do that since about 1990 which was before I learned to write
21:54:39 <oerjan> and them include a homeopathic bomb
21:54:54 <ais523> is a homeopathic one one that contains only one atom of actual explosive?
21:55:05 <elliott> ais523: erm, since when do homeopathic remedies contain a whole ATOM??
21:55:16 <ais523> elliott: some of them probably do, by chance
21:55:17 <Zwaarddijk> do people add postscript messages to every message, and as par for the course?
21:55:25 <zzo38> ais523: Then it will only explode a little bit?
21:55:29 <elliott> ais523: more like, they're made out of random rain
21:55:34 <Zwaarddijk> or do they do like it originally was meant- to add something you think of after writing it, but before sending it
21:55:35 <elliott> ais523: after all, it's probably rained once or twice in chernobyl
21:55:38 <elliott> ais523: and that was nuclear
21:56:08 <zzo38> Zwaarddijk: When I add a postscript message, it is usually for that purpose.
21:56:59 <Zwaarddijk> zzo38: I believe some people think postscripts somehow are proof that they're good writers well versed in the art of writing letters, and so add them _while composing the letter_
21:57:45 <elliott> postscripts are for snarky comments
21:58:13 <zzo38> elliott: I doubt water memory can last for even one second in a gravitational field (or even outside of a gravitational field), but other people think they can make water memory with telephones.
21:58:14 <oerjan> PS: Postscripts don't obey ends of discussion
21:58:44 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> elliott: I doubt water memory can last for even one second in a gravitational field (or even outside of a gravitational field), but other people think they can make water memory with telephones.
21:58:47 <HackEgo> 359) <zzo38> elliott: I doubt water memory can last for even one second in a gravitational field (or even outside of a gravitational field), but other people think they can make water memory with telephones.
21:59:24 <oerjan> i assume he means that without gravitation, at least water shape might be preserved...
22:00:10 <oerjan> hm wait surface tension would ruin that
22:00:43 <elliott> oerjan: when you assume, you make an ass out of u and zzo38
22:01:23 <oerjan> i assume you are talking out of your ass
22:03:25 <zzo38> Zwaarddijk: Sometimes I write the postscript for things that I want to write but that does not belong to the letter, but usually it is for things I forgot.
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22:14:05 <Gregor> In 2002, the Roman composer Nicola Sani composed Con Fuoco (for hyperbass flute and 8-track magnetic tape), <-- wtf
22:15:12 <oerjan> `translatefromto it en fuoco
22:15:14 <elliott> Gregor: Ten times more awesome than ANYTHING YOU WILL EVER DO
22:15:27 <Gregor> elliott: *sobblecopter*
22:23:59 <tswett> Pienso que la palabra que buscas es "pedo".
22:27:58 <elliott> tswett: I'm a paedophile, yes.
22:27:59 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:30:00 <tswett> Como entrenar tu dragón.
22:31:52 <elliott> Ooh. All I can say is that two's complement only has to be actually implemented where the resulting numbers are actually used; a simple addition or subtraction module wouldn't care a bit (no pun intended). --Ihope127 01:49, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
22:31:55 <elliott> WHAT ARE YOU DOING ON MY WIKIPEDIA TALK PAGE
22:32:35 <tswett> What are you talking about? I have no idea who that is.
22:32:47 <tswett> My Wikipedia account is User:Tanner Swett.
22:33:19 <elliott> tswett: Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure
22:34:18 <elliott> On nicknames: 10.08.22:11:56:02 <tswett> But this one is awful.
22:34:29 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
22:34:31 -!- elliott has joined.
22:34:37 <ais523> elliott: why the /cycle?
22:34:42 <tswett> Was I saying that the username "tswett" is awful?
22:34:55 <tswett> elliott: I don't believe you.
22:34:55 <ais523> whereas my mistakes tend to be parts, not cycles
22:35:04 <elliott> tswett: 11:55:55 <Warrigal> The only nick I'm actually considering is tswett, so if you want to take what I want from me, register that one.
22:35:07 <elliott> 11:55:59 --- nick: swett -> tswett
22:35:07 <elliott> 11:56:02 <tswett> But this one is awful.
22:35:37 <tswett> It has ceased to be awful.
22:35:51 <elliott> tswett: Note "swett -> tswett" :P
22:36:23 <tswett> Did I also change nicks in between '5:55 and '5:59?
22:37:06 <tswett> So there were two of me in play at the time.
22:37:13 <tswett> Funny what can happen with today's technology.
22:37:29 <tswett> No, that's impossible. Even with today's technology.
22:37:49 <elliott> That's what I want you to think.
22:38:20 <tswett> You're pretty benevolent, so I should probably think whatever you want me to think.
22:38:26 <tswett> What else do you want me to think?
22:38:54 <elliott> "Giving all my money except that which I require to survive to elliott and devoting my life to developing @ is the best possible thing I could do."
22:39:38 <tswett> Well, I'll probably have a much better time surviving if I go through university.
22:39:54 <tswett> And I'll probably have a much better time developing @ if I survive.
22:39:59 <elliott> That statement was only in the context of money.
22:40:14 <tswett> So I should put all my time and money toward university.
22:40:42 <elliott> tswett: "Spending lots of my free time on developing @ is an excellent idea. Free time is defined as those periods of time in which I have completed all currently necessary work for university."
22:41:12 <ais523> hey, which Windows IRC client should I recommend to people?
22:41:31 <ais523> I thought that might be the answer
22:41:35 <elliott> ais523: more seriously, one of the free XChats
22:41:36 <tswett> PuTTY is pretty good if you know what you're doing.
22:41:48 <elliott> tswett: PuTTY is not an IRC client by itself.
22:41:52 <elliott> Unless you like to type PRIVMSG a lot.
22:41:56 <elliott> ais523: http://www.silverex.org/news/
22:42:05 <tswett> Precisely what I'm saying.
22:42:33 <zzo38> I use PuTTY, but still, it is not good as an IRC client by itself (for more than one reason, actually; it isn't only because of typing PRIVMSG a lot).
22:42:33 <elliott> ais523: I think http://code.google.com/p/xchat-wdk/ is more actively developed
22:43:05 <zzo38> Like, you would need the messages being received not to override what you are typing, and also ping-pong, as well.
22:43:22 <elliott> ais523: indeed (http://code.google.com/p/xchat-wdk/wiki/InfoComparison)
22:43:31 <elliott> silverex seems to be closed source, which is ugh
22:43:40 <ais523> what license is xchat under?
22:43:58 <elliott> ais523: GPL, but the Windows builds are for-pay
22:44:12 <elliott> (they used to be free, but they decided they weren't getting enough money off suckers)
22:44:32 <ais523> oh, GPL, but pay for them to give you the binaries?
22:44:56 <elliott> ais523: the source tree doesn't work on windows, IIRC
22:45:00 <elliott> thus why xchat-wdk and the like have to patch it
22:45:04 <elliott> because it's a Unix program
22:45:34 <ais523> in that case, they're violating the GPL, but it doesn't matter if they wrote all the code themselves because they could have issued a separate license to themselves
22:45:47 <elliott> how on earth does that violate the GPL?
22:45:54 <ais523> binaries without matching source?
22:46:07 <elliott> hmm, I wonder if silverex is then illegal
22:46:12 <ais523> source is available but it doesn't match the binaries, I'm pretty sure it doesn't count
22:46:17 <elliott> ais523: I think it might be more, custom build system
22:46:25 <ais523> that violates GPL 3, but not GPL 2
22:49:48 <Gregor> I thought xchat on Windows was from the regular source, I don't think it had any separate sources ...
22:50:06 <Gregor> I thought they made people pay for binaries just because they assume that Windozers won't compile.
22:50:23 <Gregor> (A wholly-supported assumption)
22:50:23 <elliott> Gregor: They say it's "difficult" and "not automated" and blah blah blah.
22:50:24 <ais523> Gregor: I once came across a program that was GPL source + "shareware" binary on Windows
22:50:28 <elliott> I assume they at least have a separate build system.
22:50:35 <ais523> as in, they gave a cut-down version that had a 30-day trial, and asked you to pay to keep it for longer
22:50:42 <elliott> Well, depends on the definition of shareware :P
22:50:52 <elliott> Namely it has to mean something it doesn't mean >_>
22:50:53 <ais523> so I just used the source to see how the free-trial code worked, and patched it out
22:51:08 <elliott> ISTR you telling us about this
22:51:13 <elliott> it was a fork of gcc, right/
22:54:24 <zzo38> I don't really care if they make people pay for binaries as long as you can still compile it by yourself (without too much difficulty) and redistribute copies (modified or not) under the same terms, and that someone selling it by itself does not claim it is official distribution unless they: have permission, make substantial modifications, or include it as part of other things.
22:54:40 <zzo38> Or changes the name.
22:58:26 <zzo38> I have some ideas for GPL v4 for what they might make in future: One is to have a copy of the license formatted in Plain TeX for CWEB programs (and other documents). Another is to allow the licensor to specify that their version is official and unofficial one should be marked differently (such as a different package, a different name, or a different scheme for version numbers), as long as such things cannot affect the usage of the software and
22:59:42 <zzo38> And I think I read somewhere they wanted to include the GNU Manifesto with GPL licensed software? I don't think so, but perhaps include a shortened form of it in the preamble of the license.
23:00:02 <ais523> Another is to allow the licensor to specify that their version is official and unofficial one should be marked differently <--- GPLv3 allows reasonable restrictions like that
23:01:22 <zzo38> ais523: I read the license but am not sure about everything completely
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23:02:12 <zzo38> I have forked some GPL software (some version 2 and some version 3), I had made sure to make specified not confused with original software, either by changing the name or using a different version numbering scheme.
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23:02:53 <elliott> Same name, different version numbering scheme: Not confusing at all!
23:03:02 <zzo38> This is sometimes done with MegaZeux, the different forked versions are usually given different version numbering schemes or some title after the program but before the version number.
23:04:18 <zzo38> Obviously it depends what kind of version numbering scheme. It has to be one that cannot be confused with others. For example, I made MegaZeux versions numbered "P1", "P2", "P3" and so on; while some other forks use other notations in the version numbers.
23:05:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:05:39 <tswett> So if you fork something, you can mark it as a fork simply by sticking another word after the title?
23:06:01 -!- augur has joined.
23:06:04 <tswett> Like Chromium Indigo, or GHC Indigo, or NetHack Indigo?
23:06:13 <tswett> Though NetHack isn't under the GPL, of course.
23:06:19 <zzo38> As long as you do not allow it to get confused with other things, I guess.
23:06:31 <tswett> I mean, it's under the GPL, but it's the wrong one. :P
23:07:32 <zzo38> I would guess your example works.
23:07:34 -!- invariable has quit (Quit: /dev/io failed).
23:07:51 <zzo38> But I did not write the GPL or the other licenses.
23:07:51 <ais523> it's under a modified version of the Bison license
23:08:29 <elliott> I didn't know Bison predated the GPL
23:08:31 <ais523> elliott: NetHack, that is
23:08:35 <elliott> err, what license was GPL 1 under?
23:08:55 <ais523> elliott: that's the license GPL 1 was under
23:09:10 <ais523> I think it's a little ridiculous that the GPL is under no-derivs, but there you go
23:09:22 <ais523> the FSF doesn't believe in license-freedom for anything but software
23:09:29 <elliott> I once modified the WTFPL to be under the WTFPL
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23:10:12 <tswett> People are informally allowed to modify the GPL as long as they remove certain stuff.
23:10:21 <zzo38> The GPL can be modified to make something that is not the GPL, but only to make a new license for different software, and you have to remove the preamble and postamble, and should not be called the same thing. That is how GPL itself is licensed.
23:11:14 <zzo38> However it is usually discouraged due to causing incompatibilities (you can specify explicit compatibility if you want to, though, I guess).
23:15:15 <zzo38> Other ideas for GPL v4 (if they choose to use these ideas) is something regarding literate programming, if that would help.
23:15:48 <zzo38> If you sell the book it would be a good idea to include a copy of the license in the book as well as a machine-readable copy such as a DVD in the back of the book, or something like that.
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23:28:18 <elliott> gah, there appears to be no gmp irc channel
23:28:48 <zzo38> elliott: Tell them to make one
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23:36:36 <zzo38> The LGPL, AGPL, and FDL, are not available in ODF, and none of them are available in Plain TeX. Also, the LGPL is not available in LaTeX. And they have GNU license logos but not with METAFONT.
23:36:58 -!- azaq23 has joined.
23:37:19 <coppro> They're available in plain text
23:38:18 <coppro> why should they be available in ODF or TeX?
23:38:41 <zzo38> Yes it is, all are available in plain ASCII text. It can also probably be included in ODF and TeX, but it isn't formatted as well as it could be.
23:39:04 <coppro> elliott: I expect you to infer the question I am answering
23:39:15 <elliott> coppro: I expect your mom to infer the question I am answering
23:39:19 <zzo38> coppro: Some people probably use ODF (the main GPL license is available under ODF), and they should be available in Plain TeX too, including for literate programming.
23:39:29 <elliott> coppro: Or in other words, no u
23:39:42 <zzo38> (I do not use ODF myself, but probably some people will)
23:42:22 <elliott> Well, gmp is totally worthless.
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23:48:01 <zzo38> The other thing I would like to have from them, is not only the Plain TeX format of licenses but also the license logos with METAFONT.
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00:05:19 <Gregor> Google Alerts tells me it found my name here: http://twitter.com/cerias/status/55662898420260864
00:05:25 <Gregor> Now, Google Alerts was of course right.
00:05:35 <Gregor> The question is, why did CERIAS feel the need to tweet every bloody poster?
00:05:46 <elliott> Gregor: Because they love you.
00:06:07 <elliott> Also: lol @ having a Google Alert on your own name :P
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00:56:21 <zzo38> Like, it should be, if you make a program with WEB or Enhanced CWEB or whatever, you should publish the book and include a DVD in the back cover of the book, for loading the program into your computer.
00:58:24 <zzo38> What is "AHW*(R()E*TH(WEHGISGH"?
01:00:09 <oerjan> the ancient gothic god of mismatched brackets
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02:37:28 * tswett investigates Google Alerts.
02:37:48 <tswett> There's only one result for my name, and it's false.
02:38:50 <ais523> Ivan Hope, or Tanner Swett? or Warrigal?
02:39:25 <tswett> The latter is the second of two.
02:39:25 <elliott> wow, the Christian Party are Poe's Law exemplified
02:39:28 <elliott> replace the standard of 'beyond reasonable doubt' with the more biblical 'evidence of two or three reliable witnesses' in the criminal justice system.
02:39:38 <elliott> 1. Situated or occurring nearer to the end of something than to the beginning.
02:39:38 <elliott> 2. Belonging to the final stages of something. More »
02:39:42 <elliott> relating to or being the second of two items
02:39:43 <elliott> near (or nearer) to the end
02:39:43 <elliott> close (or closer) to the present time
02:39:57 <elliott> Since there were three items, I was interpreting it as the obvious generalisation as the last one
02:39:59 <tswett> I'm using it in the former sense. :P
02:40:08 <elliott> In Wales the party wants to change the Welsh flag, because it views the red dragon as a satanic symbol, they would replace it with the cross of Saint David.[10]
02:40:18 <tswett> I've... actually not used "latter" to mean "last". I think of it as meaning "all but first".
02:40:31 <tswett> So out of three options, I would think of the latter two.
02:40:41 <tswett> Anyway, "Tanner Swett" is what I searched for.
02:40:42 <elliott> the latter N is the last N, I would say
02:41:02 <elliott> The options are A, B, C and D; the latter two have the problem that they're gay, the first has the problem that it sucks, and the second has the problem that it's made out of fish.
02:41:55 <elliott> ais523: Have you ever ran a Perl script over GCC's output?
02:42:11 <ais523> elliott: I don't think so
02:42:19 <elliott> It's quite errr, enlightening
02:42:31 <elliott> What I'm saying is, dear god someone tell Gregor he's mad.
02:42:32 <ais523> I've ran a Perl script over makefiles generated during gcc's build process before now, though
02:43:03 * tswett searches for 'john powell' and finds that most of the results are for the wrong word.
02:43:09 <tswett> Why does John Powell have to be so many people?
02:43:47 <tswett> ais523: you too! There must be... at least 523 of you!
02:43:57 <oerjan> Gregor: you're an evil mangler
02:45:47 <ais523> tswett: I think so; there are 10 Alex Smiths more famous than me, imagine how many must be less famous
02:46:49 <zzo38> I do not think there is any need to change the flag, since it already exists. The red dragon can also be seen as a red dragon instead of a satanic symbol; although if there are more than enough people that prefer change the flag to the cross, then maybe they should do so. I myself don't care much as I do not live there.
02:46:58 <tswett> I'm pretty sure that a majority of people on Earth are named Alex Smith.
02:47:33 <zzo38> tswett: What percentage do you expect? I know someone who had the same name as a few people and caused confusion, someone thought he was their boss even though he wasn't.
02:48:24 <tswett> That may be a bit high, come to think of it.
02:48:51 <elliott> tswett: 6.79 million people are called Alex Smith?!?!?!?!
02:49:00 <elliott> they could found a fucking country
02:49:23 <elliott> "Ah, hello, I'm here to see Mr. Smith"
02:49:35 <tswett> Oh, wait. I'm assuming everyone has an Englishy name.
02:50:56 <tswett> Okay, let's assume that... 6% of all people have Englishy names.
02:51:07 <tswett> Then the number becomes 0.006%, I believe.
02:51:28 <tswett> Then there are only, like, 400,000 of ais523.
02:52:28 <elliott> Ihope there are not too many ais523. It would Warrigal me a lot and I might even break out into tswett.
02:52:37 <elliott> (Warrigal: SOUNDS LIKE "WORRY")
02:55:58 <olsner> you know, if everyone had the same name you'd have to start giving auxiliary names to tell all the alex smiths apart
02:56:14 <olsner> and eventually you could just drop the alex smith part
02:57:38 <elliott> I'm Alex Smith Jacque Loutique.
02:57:44 <elliott> Oh, hi. I'm Alex Smith Azerbajan Remi.
02:58:25 <olsner> alex is good, because it could be short for both alexander and alexandra
02:58:43 <elliott> It could also be short for Alxe-wielding insane hobo.
02:58:43 <olsner> so you could definitely start and maintain a country where everyone has that name
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03:07:59 <elliott> tswett is actually a elephant. did you know?
03:08:13 <Sgeo__> So, a friend gave me a password to something
03:08:19 <Sgeo__> So I'm logged in as her
03:09:22 <elliott> Sgeo__: We're still waiting for the point.
03:11:02 <oerjan> we've waited for the point for years
03:11:33 <elliott> Sgeo__: you know who *else* dressed up in the skin of women?
03:11:54 <elliott> <Sgeo> IT PUTS THE LOTION ON ITS SKIN OR ELSE IT GETS THE HOSE AGAIN
03:13:56 <elliott> hmm, the sequences are even longer than i remember
03:15:20 <oerjan> sorry, i don't eat dogs
03:15:42 <elliott> let's see... 9 + let's say 29 (cba to count them all) +
03:16:09 <elliott> that's just the most important posts
03:18:02 <elliott> holy fucking fuck how many fucking posts are there
03:18:09 <elliott> oerjan: i'm actually counting blog posts here
03:19:07 <olsner> are you counting all the blog posts, or some particular category?
03:19:27 <elliott> 17 + a bit (minor subsequences)
03:19:43 <elliott> olsner: I'm counting the number of blog posts that together constitute Less Wrong's Sequences
03:20:01 <elliott> aka what you get told to go and read the entirety of if you comment on less wrong and someone disagrees :D
03:20:26 <elliott> current total: 215 + a bit
03:22:36 <elliott> so in the *main* Sequences series, there's 340 posts. plus dependencies.
03:23:01 <elliott> misc. Yudkowsky sequences:
03:23:31 <elliott> evolution posts that i'm too sick of this to count +
03:24:00 <elliott> i'm not going to count other people's sequences because this is FUCKING ENOUGH
03:24:19 <elliott> so the total is 385 plus dependencies plus ones that nobody bothered to include in the lists because there's too fucking many
03:24:24 <elliott> olsner: oerjan: any questions
03:25:04 <olsner> what are you talking about?
03:25:21 <elliott> olsner: do you know what Less Wrong is, because if not i can't even hope to give an answer :)
03:26:01 <elliott> olsner: then i'm not even going to bother trying to explain :)
03:26:31 <elliott> *okely dokely, you stupid scannd
03:27:06 <elliott> now, i'm fairly sure oerjan knows, so i'm going to say OVER 385 POSTS FFFFFFFFF
03:27:34 <oerjan> so basically the sequences are longer than the somplete sacred texts of some major religions?
03:27:50 <elliott> oerjan: i dunno, the bible is easily 400 blog posts i'm sure :)
03:28:02 <elliott> especially if you include all the rationalisations from way back when to present
03:28:07 <oerjan> i guess it depends on post length
03:28:36 <oerjan> um those are long aren't they...
03:28:58 <elliott> a page or two of the bible would easily fill a yudkowsky post
03:29:10 <elliott> and the bible is pretty long...
03:30:23 <Sgeo__> Some books of the Bible are rather short
03:32:14 <elliott> There are 1,281 pages in the Bible (Old and New Testament combined), including 66 different "books"...
03:34:20 <zzo38> The number of pages should depend what print edition you have? The number of different books, though, should remain the same (unless it differs by counting apocrypha/deutrocanonical or not)
03:35:59 <Sgeo__> From a long lineof virgins?
03:38:29 <elliott> I give up until Gregor mangles labels :P
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03:43:13 <elliott> you can, just think about two things at once
03:43:47 <elliott> meh, who cares about atoms?
03:43:49 <calamari> although maybe you could write code and play videogames at the same time, you're pretty bright :)
03:44:01 <elliott> that's a physical issue, mostly
03:44:10 <elliott> and the fact that it's hard to look at two things at once
03:44:22 <elliott> also, videogaming tends to be a multi-core kind of thing, it uses all the available system resources
03:46:35 <elliott> calamari: mind you, the human brain's low thread limit is also a physical issue :)
03:46:51 <calamari> yeah my brain is mostly single threaded
03:47:17 <calamari> I'm one of those people whjere if I'm driving, it's dangerous for me to be doing much of anything else
03:47:24 <elliott> i look forward to moving into some leet 128-core brain hardware in the future
03:47:30 <elliott> preferably digital too, to stop all these stupid bits flipping
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05:04:28 <zzo38> I had an idea of music file format, how well would it work? There are three parts: a MIDI sequence, a synthesizer program, and a conversion table from MIDI note numbers to other numbers (usually the frequency of the notes, but can be used for whatever purpose you want).
05:06:37 <zzo38> The MIDI sequence would consist of four threads, each with four registers: instruction counter, delta counter, loop counter, and auxiliary counter. It can also contain external signal messages, which might be used for singing text or whatever.
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05:10:38 <zzo38> The synthesizer program would have sixteen threads, one for each MIDI channel, with 128 registers each (changeable by the program itself as well as by MIDI control change messages); in addition, there are 128 programs which one is used on which channel is selected by a MIDI program change message.
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05:11:27 <zzo38> Is it good? Is it sensible?
05:17:11 <zzo38> In addition, there can be some special programs that can be selected instead of writing your own; these could include one to just play sample data (as a module tracker program might do).
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07:54:18 <zzo38> Do you know Giveaway Chess (also called Losing Chess and Suicide Chess)?
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13:54:01 <Vorpal> critical vlc failure. On this DVD it shows I'm at 05:01/00:17
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15:32:54 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.02 (6930944, 0.413 blocsk left): 3x8k+4k+1k+/32+/48 to Australia, 32k+4k to China, 3x4k+1k to Japan, 32k to South Korea, 1k to Philippines, 2k+2x1k+/32 to Singapore, 4x16k to Vietnam, 2k+1k to Vanatu. Slow day.
15:34:18 <Ilari> New depletion estimate: Monday 18th April.
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15:49:07 <elliott> 19:20:02 * SgeoN1 vaguely wonders where his dad is
15:49:07 <elliott> 19:32:18 <SgeoN1> In case anyone was worried or otherwise cares: don't be
15:51:53 <olsner> is/was cpressey zomgmodules?
15:52:25 <cpressey> you can't say ((car (quote (cdr car))) (quote (a b))) in Scheme, but you can say *[*[*car [*cdr *car]] [a b]] in Bizaaro-Pixley!
15:54:05 <elliott> cpressey: erm the scheme equivalent is
15:54:14 <elliott> ((car (quasiquote ((unquote cdr) (unquote car) ...
15:54:55 <elliott> does bizaaro-pixley have lambdas?
15:55:04 <elliott> I'd just allow any quoted cons to be used as a function
15:55:11 <elliott> and bind its single argument to "x" or something :)
15:55:21 <elliott> or maybe have it like [x *[car *x]]
15:55:27 <elliott> that would be slightly more reasonable
15:55:42 <elliott> well picolisp would too :p
16:00:01 <cpressey> thus concludes this morning's session of leaving elliott nonplussed
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16:01:12 <olsner> morning? what a joker, it's just 19h past bedtime
16:02:40 <olsner> so I think I'll just have breakfast and go to bed
16:06:59 <Vorpal> fuuuck. Maybe elliott knows the answer to this:
16:07:11 <Vorpal> .IFO detected. Redirecting to dvd://
16:07:12 <Vorpal> There are 2 titles on this DVD.
16:07:12 <Vorpal> There are 1 angles in this DVD title.
16:07:19 <Vorpal> how do I get mplayer to play the second title
16:07:43 <Vorpal> I can't get mplayer to even open the dvd menu, and vlc opens it but I can't find the second title
16:10:39 <olsner> you give it the option for selecting a title, or you press the button for going to the next title
16:11:03 <elliott> olsner: breakfast? Swedes have breakfast?
16:11:09 <elliott> i thought all meal times were Regular Ordinary Swedish Meal Times
16:11:19 <elliott> Vorpal: it's... part of the path
16:11:30 <olsner> yes, breakfast *is* a regular ordinary swedish meal time
16:11:54 <olsner> including the pre-breakfast snack: it's good for you
16:11:56 <elliott> As mentioned above, MPlayer does not support the playback of DVD menus. To play the first title on a DVD, use
16:11:56 <elliott> If the first title is not the main movie, try playing other titles:
16:12:01 <elliott> http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/MPlayer
16:12:06 <Vorpal> elliott, but it doesn't even want to accept dvd:// when it is a file on the disc. I have to give it the .IFO file thingy
16:12:07 <elliott> Vorpal: the great juffgy triumphs once again
16:12:21 <Vorpal> elliott, as in... file on hard disk
16:12:33 <elliott> Vorpal: try /home/arvid/poop.ifo/blah
16:12:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't have the dvd handy. I have the ripped stuff
16:12:38 <elliott> and stick a dvd:// in front if that doesn't help :)
16:12:54 <elliott> mplayer [dvd|dvdnav]://[title|[start_title]-end_title][/device]
16:13:01 <elliott> Vorpal: dvd://2/home/arvid/blah
16:13:23 <elliott> dunno what dvdnav is mind you
16:13:47 <Vorpal> elliott, dvd://2//home/arvid/blah even
16:13:55 <elliott> but i think my previous address should work
16:14:11 <Vorpal> elliott, nope, it was a relative path :P
16:14:16 <Vorpal> so you need an extra /
16:14:54 <Vorpal> but what the crap. This isn't the stuff I expect. This is just the logo. -_-
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16:18:17 <olsner> Vorpal fails to watch a movie
16:24:06 <Vorpal> olsner, quite. Meh. Will have to find it another way
16:25:08 <elliott> Vorpal: or you could just try title 3, 4
16:25:26 <olsner> I hear there are places where people set up the movie for you, you just sit there and it rolls
16:25:40 <Vorpal> olsner, I doubt this one would be sent there. It is old.
16:26:03 <Vorpal> olsner, besides I can google for stuff in it at the same time. And no popcorn
16:26:26 <Vorpal> the sound of crunching popcorn is annoying
16:26:54 <elliott> it's less annoying if you're the one making it
16:26:57 <elliott> <Vorpal> olsner, I doubt this one would be sent there. It is old.
16:27:01 <elliott> ^ worst excuse for porn ever
16:27:16 <Vorpal> elliott, hahahaha. You must have a very strange taste.
16:27:30 <Vorpal> elliott, to consider Cosmos by Carl Sagan... porn.
16:27:52 <olsner> carl sagan porn? ewww :/
16:27:59 <Vorpal> olsner, my reaction indeed!
16:28:04 <Vorpal> olsner, what can elliott be up to
16:28:16 <Vorpal> this is worse than auto-tuning his voice
16:28:22 <Vorpal> elliott, hey it is you who made that up!
16:28:23 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/reverb-2011-04-11.ogg <-- check out the sweet room reverb generator I made :)
16:28:51 <elliott> Gregor: Are you actually writing a whole music conductor program thing :P
16:29:00 <Gregor> elliott: One step at a time, yes.
16:29:01 <Vorpal> Gregor, why is there so much noise in it?
16:29:12 <Gregor> Vorpal: Because I don't mix very well, I'm working on it :P
16:29:15 <elliott> Gregor: What were you using before
16:29:24 <Vorpal> Gregor, sure you didn't turn on the LP effect?
16:29:29 <Gregor> elliott: fluidsynth, sox, and no conductor program.
16:29:40 <Gregor> variable: Har-dee-har.
16:30:04 <elliott> Also, I conclude that Vorpal has never heard an LP, ever.
16:30:44 <Vorpal> elliott, actually I had. And yes the noise is somewhat different. This is more like bad cassette recording or such.
16:31:03 <Gregor> Would you jerkfaces focus on the reverb instead of the noise :P
16:31:17 <Vorpal> Gregor, what reverb? Can I hear a before/after to compare?
16:31:27 <elliott> I haven't focussed on the noise
16:31:39 <elliott> My professional opinion is that it sounds like reverb, though
16:31:58 <elliott> Gregor: Now turn the reverb up
16:32:00 <Vorpal> another non-essential thing to concentrate on: nice music
16:36:26 <Vorpal> *oh* found it. The box says something else than the discs say. Part 2 is on disc 2. Even though nothing else indicate this is the case. Oh well.
16:37:42 <Vorpal> so every disc except the first has two episodes
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16:41:28 <Vorpal> (I assumed it was the last one that had just one episode, which the box indicated too)
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17:17:22 <cpressey> hm, you can also say ((car (list cdr car)) (quote (a b))) in Scheme, because list evaluates its arguments.
17:18:24 <elliott> (quasiquote (unquote cdr) (unquote car)) = (cons cdr (cons car '())) = (list cdr car)
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17:18:39 <elliott> and bizarro-Pixley [] is quasiquote, and * is unquote
17:18:59 <elliott> with the whole thing being in a sort of implicit (car (quasiquote ...))
17:19:21 <elliott> (car (quasiquote (... ())))
17:19:44 <cpressey> no, there's no quasiquote in bizaaro-Pixley, just quote and eval
17:20:30 <elliott> cpressey: what is the result of [*[*+ *2 *2] blah] in a hypothetical bizarro-Pixley with those functions and integers?
17:20:55 <elliott> what is the result of *[car [*[*+ *2 *2] blah]]
17:20:56 <cpressey> well, no, malformed, because you have a triple in there :)
17:21:38 <cpressey> *[car [*[*+ *2 *2] blah]] => error, because evaling a pair where the lhs is not a function is an error (but i'm considering changing the meaning of evaling a pair, so stay tuned)
17:21:52 <elliott> what is the result of *[*car [*[*+ *2 *2] blah]]
17:22:33 <cpressey> *[*car [*[*+ *2 *2] blah]] => error because *4 is not a function
17:22:56 <elliott> what is the result of [*car [*[*+ *2 *2] blah]]
17:23:11 <elliott> your semantics, they is incoherent to me
17:23:34 <elliott> i'm fairly sure what you have is [a b] = (quasiquote (a . b)) and *x = (unquote x)...
17:23:35 <cpressey> *[*car [*[*+ *2 *2] blah]] => *4
17:23:44 <elliott> then yes, you have quasiquote and unquote
17:23:46 <cpressey> i think. i don't know, i don't have fricken integers!
17:23:50 <elliott> if [] was quote, then you'd just get
17:24:41 <elliott> so does car actually get the car and then evaluate that?
17:25:00 <elliott> i'll hold off thinking about this until there's an implementation :-P
17:25:15 <cpressey> there is one, but i'm holding off releasing it until i decide i like it a lot
17:25:51 <elliott> meh, all languages are just inferior versions of thue
17:28:16 <cpressey> i have some ideas about making cons superfluous and replacing lambdas with "pure closures", but they're just ideas right now
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17:35:13 <cpressey> elliott: ah lahks lexical bindings
17:35:33 <elliott> cpressey: when john mccarthy made lisp 1.0 did he use lexical bindings NO HE DID NOT
17:35:36 <elliott> are you questioning mccarthy
17:36:57 <cpressey> Mr. McCarthy, isn't it true you have been seen in the presence of several known members of the Communist Party?
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17:49:34 <Vorpal> I should try to get uplink demo running hm
17:50:01 <Vorpal> ooh nice.... a self-extracting shellscript
17:50:54 <Vorpal> .setup17415: error while loading shared libraries: libgtk-1.2.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
17:52:40 <Vorpal> ./lib/uplink.bin.x86: error while loading shared libraries: libjpeg.so.62: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
17:53:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I think dynamic linking is acceptable when it is for core distro package. But not for "binary blobs"
17:56:47 <Vorpal> okay it kind of starts now
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18:26:06 <Vorpal> elliott, I got uplink running fine. However it is made for lower DPI screens
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18:49:24 <oerjan> <olsner> carl sagan porn? ewww :/
18:49:31 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/spaceporn
18:49:41 <oerjan> i think that's close enough
18:50:02 <Vorpal> weird result from typoing in units: http://sprunge.us/ZcAf <-- what's up with the first one
18:50:42 <Vorpal> Definition: 0.018039068 m^5
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18:51:07 <Vorpal> which is volume it seems
18:51:08 <oerjan> the knew /r/*Porn subreddits are going to pose an interesting conundrum for net nannies...
18:51:24 <Vorpal> oerjan, there are uh, several?
18:51:47 <oerjan> yes, there are 10 listed sister reddits on that page
18:52:39 <oerjan> i think EarthPorn may have been the first with that naming convention
18:52:40 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh, not actually porn as such
18:52:55 <Vorpal> or, humanporn might be
18:53:15 <oerjan> you might think, but no...
18:53:21 * oerjan visited that one before
18:53:21 <Vorpal> oerjan, then what is it?
18:53:31 <elliott> oerjan: erm tv tropes sort of pioneered it no?
18:53:41 <oerjan> i think there is also a plain /r/porn, which _is_ what it sounds like
18:53:48 <elliott> i think that actually predates tvtropes
18:54:06 <elliott> also "gorn" which is an obvious contraction
18:54:06 <Vorpal> oerjan, what is humanporn, I can't figure it out
18:54:22 <oerjan> elliott: however the subreddits started getting created only a month or so ago
18:54:31 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't that like an violence instead of sex?
18:54:33 <elliott> well your mom only started getting created a month or so ago. shut up.
18:54:42 <elliott> oh man /r/earthporn is not going to be good for me
18:54:49 <oerjan> Vorpal: i think the actual subject is something like "awesome people"
18:54:52 <elliott> my list of places to visit will never stop increasing
18:55:05 <elliott> why did you tell me about this oerjan
18:55:13 <Vorpal> oh there are descriptions on the side
18:55:17 <Vorpal> "This subreddit is devoted to hi-res artistic portraits of individuals or groups of people. NSFW content is allowed, as long as it is flagged as NSFW."
18:55:24 <elliott> humanporn: "This subreddit is devoted to hi-res artistic portraits of individuals or groups of people. NSFW content is allowed, as long as it is flagged as NSFW. There is a difference between art and smut. All smut will be removed, there are other subreddits for that."
18:56:57 <elliott> oerjan is a very bad person
18:57:22 <elliott> http://imgur.com/s/Ggybq what
18:57:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I'd guess a saltlake at dawn or dusk
18:58:07 <oerjan> oh wait spaceporn is actually older than earthporn
18:58:35 <Vorpal> elliott, based on the title: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_Lake
18:58:43 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_Lake it's this
18:58:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I beat you to that
18:58:54 <elliott> why is everywhere so pretty ;;;___;;;
18:59:01 <Vorpal> elliott, salt lake indeed as I said
19:00:20 <oerjan> hm wasn't mono lake that place they found those arsenic bacteria
19:01:03 <elliott> oerjan: you have to buy my plane tickets for me
19:01:41 <elliott> oerjan: IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT
19:02:15 <Vorpal> elliott, speaking of tvtropes above. Their article on Dwarf Fortress is quite amusing
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19:07:03 <oerjan> <Vorpal> olsner, I doubt this one would be sent there. It is old.
19:07:24 <oerjan> there _are_ film clubs and the like that show old films. at least there is one in trondheim.
19:07:59 <oerjan> although wasn't cosmos a tv series rather than a movie
19:08:51 <oerjan> <Vorpal> this is worse than auto-tuning his voice
19:09:31 * oerjan now has the vague image of adjusting the visuals to be pornographic, while keeping the soundtrack as usual
19:10:12 <Vorpal> oerjan, you have a dirty mind :
19:10:21 <Vorpal> <oerjan> although wasn't cosmos a tv series rather than a movie <-- indeed
19:12:22 <elliott> i wonder if carl sagan and david attenborough ever made anything together
19:12:36 * elliott checks Has The Earth Exploded From Awesomeness Yet?
19:12:40 <elliott> nope, guess they never did
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19:13:28 <Vorpal> elliott, argh. 5 hours to go for next disc...
19:13:39 <Vorpal> (yes the mail delivers in the night)
19:15:39 <oerjan> elliott: it would appear they were at least autotuned into the same piece http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_of_Science#The_Unbroken_Thread
19:16:16 <elliott> THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY MESS WITH
19:16:26 <elliott> i've never actually listened to any of the post-glorious-dawn ones PROBABLY THEY SOLD OUT
19:17:11 <elliott> Vorpal: what's the gcc stuff for likely/unlikely branches?
19:18:45 <Vorpal> elliott, uh, check manual, I don't remember it offhand. Something like __builtin_gcc_expect iirc
19:18:57 <Vorpal> elliott, basically likely/unlikely are kernel macros
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19:19:51 <elliott> lol, it lectures me to profile
19:20:21 <elliott> i suppose i can imagine a universe where bignum+bignum arithmetic is more common than bignum+fixnum or fixnum+fixnum, but it's sure as hell not this one
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19:21:18 <Vorpal> elliott, profile to see if it actually helps
19:21:29 <oerjan> <elliott> meh, all languages are just inferior versions of thue
19:21:49 <oerjan> i actually find /// / Itflabtijtslwi more elegant than thue
19:22:02 <Vorpal> oerjan, "Itflabtijtslwi"?
19:22:27 <oerjan> for one thing the latter can do arbitrary stdin/stdout IO
19:23:06 <oerjan> Vorpal: ignore this fancy little acronym, basically this is just that slashes language with input
19:24:34 * oerjan wasn't the one to name it though
19:24:51 <oerjan> although i did write the slightly nontrivial programs
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19:48:44 <Vorpal> oerjan, so is it BF-IO complete?
19:48:49 <Vorpal> oerjan, or is it more limited?
19:50:47 <oerjan> assuming that means it can read and write any byte, then i believe so (although it needs a large table of characters if it is to recognize all of them, similarly to unlambda)
19:52:19 <oerjan> as in, i see no fundamental obstacles, given that i could write rot13 in it
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19:54:27 <Vorpal> oerjan, what about the zero byte?
19:55:57 <oerjan> shouldn't be a problem. it has a separate convention for EOF distinct from any character (in fact that _was_ my decision to clarify the spec when i wrote the perl implementation)
19:56:50 <oerjan> well unless there is some bug related to how perl deals with NULs, but i would consider that a flaw in the implementation, not the language
19:57:42 <oerjan> i don't know exactly how perl does that stuff
19:59:06 <oerjan> this means that it should be _more_ IO-complete than an 8-bit BF implementation which cannot avoid confusing some characters with EOF
20:04:51 <Vorpal> oerjan, how do you tell them apart in the source code?
20:08:31 <oerjan> the GG command reads a char if available, and substitutes it for a chosen string. eof substitutes the empty string instead.
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20:11:34 <zzo38> If it was up to me, I would have the C pointers with NULL work like: An implicit cast from a constant 0 is NULL. An implicit cast from any other number, or a non-constant 0, is a compile error. An explicit cast from any number to a pointer is the corresponding address, so 0 might not necessarily be NULL.
20:12:37 <zzo38> An implicit cast from a pointer to boolean is true if and only if it is not NULL. An implicit cast from pointer to number is a compiler error, but an explicit cast works and 0 will not necessarily be NULL.
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20:20:30 <Vorpal> zzo38, how do you determine at compile time if something is an "non-constant 0" as opposed to for example, a number in the range 3-4? "An implicit cast from any other number, or a non-constant 0, is a compile error."
20:21:25 <Vorpal> of course it doesn't really matter for this
20:21:48 <zzo38> If the compiler sees it a constant expression or not, I mean, an expression without variable/function call
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20:49:20 <elliott> 19:21:18: <Vorpal> elliott, profile to see if it actually helps
20:49:44 <Vorpal> elliott, what was it then?
20:49:44 <elliott> (in this case, gcc is being used to generate instruction implementations for a JIT)
20:49:54 <elliott> 19:21:49: <oerjan> i actually find /// / Itflabtijtslwi more elegant than thue
20:50:00 <Vorpal> elliott, you could do test cases with/without it maybe
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20:50:20 <elliott> 19:50:47: <oerjan> assuming that means it can read and write any byte, then i believe so (although it needs a large table of characters if it is to recognize all of them, similarly to unlambda)
20:50:27 <elliott> oerjan: it's more like that + arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point
20:50:37 <elliott> B... = bf program with no output
20:50:46 <elliott> language has both input and output of any byte, but, right :)
20:51:27 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway, this code path appears for every arithmetic op
20:51:33 <elliott> Vorpal: and fixnums are overwhelmingly the common case
20:52:05 <Vorpal> elliott, not sure if you seen the df thread about how to best set up a mermaid farm? Because their bones are valuable when crafting things of them.
20:52:13 <Vorpal> only in dwarf fortress!
20:52:30 <elliott> Vorpal: no, i don't read that forum
20:52:49 <Vorpal> elliott, sometimes it can be fun, or horrible: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=25967.0
20:52:54 <elliott> Vorpal: i could do test cases, but so far there are no language implementations on top of this host
20:53:09 <Vorpal> elliott, is it for that language for PH's game?
20:53:44 <Vorpal> elliott, mhm, which one is that?
20:53:48 <elliott> anyway, strictly, gcc doesn't generate the implementations
20:53:53 <elliott> it generates a partial implementation
20:53:57 <elliott> which is then cleaned up with a perl script
20:54:05 <Vorpal> elliott, depends on a specific gcc version then?
20:54:06 <elliott> to fill in things like function prologuee
20:54:16 <elliott> and "jump to here if not overflow"
20:54:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Fythe is Gregor's general-purpose language implementation VM/parser system
20:54:57 <elliott> the basis of (the as of yet unimplemented) Plof 4
20:55:05 <elliott> I don't think it depends on a specific gcc version
20:55:09 <elliott> most of the patches are pretty general
20:55:27 <elliott> probably the overflow stuff will have to be redone, but the prologue/epilogue things should be all right
20:55:31 <elliott> since they're just replacing a string :)
20:56:07 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you doing evil mangler sort of stuff instead of using llvm or something
20:56:35 <elliott> Vorpal: because LLVM doesn't fit Plof's needs?
20:56:46 <Vorpal> elliott, in what ways=
20:56:50 <elliott> Fythe is suited for dynamic languages, as well as static onse
20:56:58 <elliott> and has a built-in extensible packrat parser engine
20:57:04 <elliott> which forms the basis of Plof's language extension features
20:57:07 <elliott> and indeed Plof's implementation itself
20:57:15 <elliott> you can implement a language in Fythe without writing any C code, basically
20:57:32 <elliott> Vorpal: the evil mangler stuff is Gregor's idea, it's just how the opcode impls are generated
20:57:45 <elliott> you could hand-code them if you wanted, but if that route was taken, there probably wouldn't already be an arm backend :P
20:58:13 <elliott> Vorpal: also, it has an optimisation engine type of thing built in
20:58:19 <elliott> or, really, arbitrary numbers of passes
20:58:30 <elliott> and all this is done at runtime
20:58:53 <elliott> all I'm doing is changing the integer implementation to use bignums on overflow and the like
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21:00:24 <elliott> hmm, I wonder if I could free up a register by adding the two booleans
21:00:34 <elliott> oh wait, that wouldn't let me distinguish right only vs. left only bignum
21:00:55 <oerjan> mangle mangle twist and tangle
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21:03:18 <elliott> heyy, gcc has AWESOME builtins
21:03:47 <oerjan> gc spurn and pointer dangle
21:04:05 <elliott> the builtin that looks cool isn't in 4.4
21:04:58 <elliott> specifically __builtin_unreachable
21:05:06 <elliott> i think that would reduce the mangling a little bit
21:05:17 <elliott> hm the null pointer derefs should become __builtin_trap() instead maybe
21:08:44 <elliott> Vorpal: fun thing the mangler has to do: rename all labels
21:09:00 <elliott> otherwise gcc generates them terribly (seemingly pseudo-randomly)
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21:39:41 <Gregor> Vorpal: http://codu.org/tmp/reverb-2011-04-11.tar <-- this tar includes no reverb, simple reverb, pan+reverb, and my full room reverb system.
21:40:15 <Vorpal> will check tomorrow, have to sleep now. Will wget it
21:40:18 <Gregor> Simple reverb and full room reverb are actually the most similar, but simple reverb gives no sense of space, whereas pan+reverb gives a distorted, actually kind of disturbing sense of space.
21:42:52 <oerjan> this sentence no reverb
21:45:30 * oerjan wonders how you would converse if you could only use neighboring keys consecutively
21:48:11 <Zwaarddijk> hm, I just had two ideas for a programming language
21:48:22 <Zwaarddijk> but ones that will make programmers hate me!
21:49:08 <Zwaarddijk> 1) parentheses and other similar things aren't required to be closed or opened, in fact, they are just operators (this will annoy people
21:49:36 <oerjan> the latter has been done
21:50:01 <oerjan> i don't quite recall where
21:50:27 <oerjan> it was discussed here, anyway
21:50:34 <elliott> * oerjan wonders how you would converse if you could only use neighboring keys consecutively
21:51:29 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: even merd did the latter :)
21:51:32 <Ilari> Hmm... Esolang where the program is a general digraph. :-)
21:51:46 <Zwaarddijk> we once communicated in three-letter abbreviations
21:51:48 <oerjan> elliott: the left side seemed to have more promise. although i ignored the return key...
21:51:58 <Zwaarddijk> the idea was to look sort of pseudo-assemblerlike
21:53:19 <Ilari> Bonus points for not associating any data with vertices or edges and having any digraph be valid program.
21:53:26 <elliott> oerjan: werd-feeds-a-wedded-sasser
21:53:42 <oerjan> elliott: no i mean f does not touch e
21:53:49 <elliott> oerjan: sure it does, diagonally
21:54:16 <oerjan> well if your keyboard is like a chessboard pattern, maybe
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21:56:31 <Ilari> Of course, that would involve digraph homomorphism problem.
21:57:29 <Ilari> And also likely vertex equivalence.
21:59:53 <Ilari> Graph homomorphism isn't known to be in P nor in NPC. Don't know if digraphs change things.
22:00:10 <Ilari> Don't know about vertex equivalence.
22:00:36 <oerjan> i think you mean isomorphism for the "not known"?
22:01:49 <oklopol> oerjan: erm, homomorphism has it as a subcase
22:02:02 <oklopol> when you have the same amount of edges and vertices
22:02:23 <oklopol> but it might be known to be np-complete
22:02:35 <oerjan> yes, homomorphism is NPC
22:02:45 <oklopol> subgraph is easily seen to be np-complete so prolly okay
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22:03:31 <oerjan> i just saw it claimed on wp
22:03:48 <oklopol> well easy to believe, maybe i'll think about it later
22:03:50 <oerjan> however actually isomorphism is _not_ a subcase of homomorphism
22:03:56 <oerjan> at least not obviously
22:04:05 <oerjan> because the map is not required to be injective
22:04:22 <oklopol> "<oklopol> when you have the same amount of edges and vertices"?
22:04:58 <oklopol> maybe i don't know what a function is then
22:05:17 <oerjan> e.g. you have a homomorphism from C4 to itself which collapses two opposing vertices
22:05:36 <oklopol> err, that's not surjective?
22:05:51 <oerjan> homomorphisms are not required to be surjective either
22:05:59 <oklopol> okay so i guess the problem is me assuming it's assumed surjective
22:06:12 <oklopol> because that makes more sense
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22:07:39 <Ilari> Subgraph isomorphism is NP-Complete. But is isomorphism with full graphs?
22:07:41 <oklopol> or, alternatively, it is my opinion that the epimorphism problem is more natural than the homomorphism problem
22:07:52 <oklopol> Ilari: that's the unknown thing
22:07:54 <oerjan> Ilari: that is the unknown question
22:08:50 <oklopol> oerjan: so, for the homomorphism problem, i don't really see how it can be NPC, since you can just map everything to a single vertex?
22:09:18 <oerjan> oklopol: no, you cannot map vertices that have edges between them to the same
22:09:59 <oerjan> i think maybe it suffices to consider the "from" graph being complete, for which homomorphism and subgraph isomorphism become the same, and also the same as the maximal clique problem?
22:10:30 <oerjan> (the same because injectivity is then automatic)
22:11:08 <Ilari> Vertex equivalence is equivalence relation: Vertex is equivalent to itself, it is symmetric relation and if x is equivalent to y, and y is equivalent to z, then x is equivalent to z.
22:11:10 <oklopol> which one's the from graph
22:11:45 <Ilari> Anyway, all C_n and K_n graphs have all vertices equivaent. K_n,m graphs (biparite) have two sets of equivalent vertices.
22:12:41 <oklopol> Ilari: did god give you The Equivalence Relation?
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22:13:26 <oklopol> "from" graph as in the one from which you try to find stuff? that can't be complete
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22:13:45 <oerjan> oklopol: "from" graph as the domain of the homomorphism function
22:14:31 <oklopol> so homomorphism from K_n to some graph G actually marks a K_n in G
22:14:35 <oerjan> the map goes from the set of vertices of one graph to the set of vertices of another
22:14:55 <oklopol> but let me try to see why.
22:15:15 <oerjan> well as i said it's the maximal clique problem, no?
22:15:28 <oklopol> i guess we can just take that as a given
22:15:46 <oklopol> because everyone knows that
22:17:09 <oerjan> "Subgraph isomorphism is a generalization of both the maximum clique problem and the problem of testing whether a graph contains a Hamiltonian cycle, and is therefore NP-complete."
22:17:54 <oerjan> the hamiltonian thing doesn't look like it would transfer to homomorphisms though
22:18:11 <oerjan> (cycles can easily have vertices identified)
22:19:00 <oklopol> well you could add new vertices inside the edges to make them directed and unique for the beginning vertex?
22:20:40 <oerjan> the clique problem was one of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karp%27s_21_NP-complete_problems
22:24:27 <Ilari> Ah, of course vertex equivalence and graph isomorphism are equally hard. :-)
22:24:47 <oklopol> what's vertex equivalence?
22:25:26 <oerjan> Ilari: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NP-complete_problems#Iso-_and_other_morphisms lists somthing called digraph D-morphism, but the link leads nowhere
22:27:24 * oerjan guesses that vertex equivalence means there's an isomorphism of the graph to itself mapping one vertex to the other
22:28:04 <oklopol> then i don't see the equally hard claim
22:28:50 <oklopol> then vertex eq can be reduced to graph isomorphism by marking the vertex with some weird thingie i think
22:29:16 <oklopol> but the other direction i don't see in the vaguest
22:30:26 <oerjan> make a graph that is the disjoint union of the two, and see if there is a vertex equivalence between vertices from different original graphs
22:31:21 <oklopol> but i think i solved maximum clique
22:31:43 <oerjan> proving it NP-complete?
22:32:17 <oklopol> take 3sat, and for each (x v y v z) you take three vertices which are not connected, then connect every pair x, y everywhere else, unless x = not y
22:32:28 <oerjan> hm i vaguely recall thinking about that one some months ago
22:32:30 <oklopol> and require one vertex for all
22:32:43 <oklopol> so find K_n where n is the number of clauses
22:33:14 <oklopol> must choose exactly one from all, and it's then K_n unless you made a contradicting choice in two clauses
22:33:49 <oklopol> and yes, i know that was very unclear
22:34:46 <oklopol> but let's see if i know what i mean
22:35:59 <oklopol> if you find some K_n, then you chose one from each clause, so you can just set those to true, then it doesn't matter what you do with other vars, because everything's satisfied
22:36:18 <oklopol> and you can set those to true because there can't be both x and not x chosen from two clauses
22:36:42 <oklopol> if you can satisfy, then just choose one from each clause, you won't get x and not x because, well, x has some value
22:37:05 * oklopol has never felt this formally challenged
22:38:50 <oerjan> i vaguely recall how i did it, and i think you have a flaw there. you need to also have a vertex for each variable x and each not x, to ensure all settings are globally consistent
22:39:15 <oerjan> but otherwise, that's the idea
22:39:27 <oklopol> i don't think you need a vertex for each variable
22:39:52 <oerjan> yes you do, because you can have a set of clauses that restrict a variable without doing so "locally"
22:40:14 <oklopol> but a K_n marks a true variable in every clause
22:40:35 <oklopol> so you get a satisfying valuation
22:40:54 <oklopol> but yeah this might not be the most illustrative way, i just didn't see how it's done with variable vertices
22:41:17 <oklopol> so you choose the correct value of each variable into the K_n, as vertices?
22:41:43 <oklopol> then you choose that value also in those thingies i contructed i guess
22:42:06 <oklopol> well anyhow it's kinda obvious, i should go to sleep
22:46:01 <oerjan> hm i think i understand how your method works now
22:46:39 <oklopol> because i'm like should i try to actually do it or not
22:47:13 <oklopol> i slept 14 hours last night but for some reason i can't seem to do it now
22:47:59 <oklopol> have you seen the proof for hamiltonian path np-complete?
22:48:37 <oklopol> i'm actually going to read that tomorrow, it's interesting how often the stuff i do at random at uni pops up here
22:48:48 <oklopol> usually complexity theory but other stuff too i think
22:49:43 <oklopol> well *directed* hamiltonian is easy
22:49:48 <oerjan> i'd assume the people over at godel's letter do...
22:50:21 <oerjan> the karp 21 page claimed undirected hamiltonian was proved by reducing it to directed
22:50:30 <oklopol> you have a chain from right to left and left to right for each variable, and put these under each other, have the hamiltonian cycle go through each, in one of the two directions
22:50:46 <oklopol> you have a vertex, and you can visit it iff you're going in the right direction
22:51:38 <oklopol> that one is clear when you draw a picture, but i doubt it's gettable from that :D
22:54:34 <oklopol> so basically you have a start vertex up high, and two paths down from it, then between those paths, between their nth vertices, you have paths in both directions, one representing "nth variable true", one representing "nth variable false". you also have edges for changing path from left side to right as you go down
22:55:26 <oklopol> then, somewhere in the middle of say x=false path, you have one of the edges optionally going through a vertex that signifies that a certain clause disjuncting (not x) is true
22:55:49 <oklopol> that should be pretty much it
22:56:49 <elliott> brain mushmshmsuhmsuhsmhshmsuhmsuhmsmhshsmhsmhsmhsmhsmhmshmshmshmsmhsmhsmhsmhsnhsmhsmh
22:57:08 <oklopol> i'll be happy to clarify if you feel like it
22:57:24 <oklopol> but how the fuck do you reduce directed to undirected....
22:57:51 <oklopol> undirected reduced to directed? why would you do that :D
22:58:13 <oklopol> just have edges both ways..
22:58:14 <oerjan> er i guess the other way
22:59:33 <oerjan> i meant "reduced" as reducing NP-completeness of one to the NP-completeness of the other, which is of course the exact opposite direction of the actual problem reduction
22:59:33 <oklopol> yeah so about the undirected case: i have no idea
23:00:22 <oklopol> especially the ones that are stuppid
23:00:57 <oklopol> i have to wake up in 4 hours if i want to be at uni before the cleaning ppl :(
23:01:15 <oklopol> the girl that cleans our office is the cutest little thingie
23:02:17 <oklopol> also that was a completely orthogonal note
23:02:26 <oklopol> i'm not even going to the office
23:03:23 <oklopol> anyhow let's see how this goes after proving these mindnumbing trivialities ->
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23:48:44 <elliott> Bayesians caught smuggling
23:48:44 <elliott> priors into Rotterdam harbor
23:48:44 <elliott> Amsterdam, 2-2-2011. A group of
23:48:46 <elliott> international Bayesians was arrested today in
23:48:48 <elliott> the Rotterdam harbor. According to Dutch
23:48:50 <elliott> customs, they were attempting to smuggle over
23:48:52 <elliott> 1.5 million priors into the country, hidden
23:48:54 <elliott> between electronic equipment. The arrest
23:48:56 <elliott> represents the largest capture of priors in history.
23:48:58 <elliott> ‘This is our biggest catch yet. Uniform priors, Gaussian priors, Dirichlet priors, even
23:49:00 <elliott> informative priors, it’s all here,” says customs officers Benjamin Roosken,
23:49:02 <elliott> responsible for the arrest. “There are priors for memory experiments, intelligence
23:49:04 <elliott> tests, flanker tasks, meta-analyses, political preference, everything! God only knows
23:49:06 <elliott> what would have happened if this had gotten through. We’re pretty lucky to catch
23:49:08 <elliott> them too. The chance of being in the right place, given the right time, if you take into
23:49:10 <elliott> account the number of arrests, divided by the number of successful arrests every year,
23:49:14 <elliott> it’s pretty slim. We’re very glad indeed. ”
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01:09:37 <Ilari> Wow, 269 page RFC.
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01:40:45 <Ilari> Hmm... Huston estimate for APNIC depletion is Thursday 21st April (my own current estimate is Monday 18th April). Of course, it can deplete at any day nwo.
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03:15:14 <oerjan> !slashes /Na/\/N1\///Nb/\/\/Nd()\/Nd1Nd\/\/1Nd\/Nd1\/\/Nd1111111111\/1\Nd\/\/NcNd\/Nc\/\/Nc\/Nd\/\/Ne\/Nd\/\/11\/2\/\/21\/3\/\/22\/4\/\/23\/5\/\/42\/6\/\/43\/7\/\/44\/8\/\/45\/9\/\/NdNd\/0Nd\/\/Nd\/\/NcNdN1Ne/Na()()()()()()()Nb
03:15:26 <oerjan> !slashes /Na/\/N1\///Nb/\/\/Nd()\/Nd1Nd\/\/1Nd\/Nd1\/\/Nd1111111111\/1\Nd\/\/NcNd\/Nc\/\/Nc\/Nd\/\/Ne\/Nd\/\/11\/2\/\/21\/3\/\/22\/4\/\/23\/5\/\/42\/6\/\/43\/7\/\/44\/8\/\/45\/9\/\/NdNd\/0Nd\/\/Nd\/\/NcNdN1Ne/Na()()()()()()()()()()()Nb
03:15:41 <oerjan> !slashes /Na/\/N1\///Nb/\/\/Nd()\/Nd1Nd\/\/1Nd\/Nd1\/\/Nd1111111111\/1\Nd\/\/NcNd\/Nc\/\/Nc\/Nd\/\/Ne\/Nd\/\/11\/2\/\/21\/3\/\/22\/4\/\/23\/5\/\/42\/6\/\/43\/7\/\/44\/8\/\/45\/9\/\/NdNd\/0Nd\/\/Nd\/\/NcNdN1Ne/Na()()()()()()()()()Nb
03:15:46 <oerjan> !slashes /Na/\/N1\///Nb/\/\/Nd()\/Nd1Nd\/\/1Nd\/Nd1\/\/Nd1111111111\/1\Nd\/\/NcNd\/Nc\/\/Nc\/Nd\/\/Ne\/Nd\/\/11\/2\/\/21\/3\/\/22\/4\/\/23\/5\/\/42\/6\/\/43\/7\/\/44\/8\/\/45\/9\/\/NdNd\/0Nd\/\/Nd\/\/NcNdN1Ne/Na()()()()()()()()()()Nb
03:16:47 <elliott> oerjan: omg more /// stuff!
03:16:49 <elliott> i am just reading this log
03:17:11 <elliott> hey, do for /// what you did for UL :trollface:
03:17:17 <elliott> is it still tc without \?!
03:17:31 <oerjan> !slashes /Na/\/N1\///Nb/\/\/Nd()\/Nd1Nd\/\/1Nd\/Nd1\/\/Nd1111111111\/1\\Nd\/\/NcNd\/Nc\/\/Nc\/Nd\/\/Ne\/Nd\/\/11\/2\/\/21\/3\/\/22\/4\/\/23\/5\/\/42\/6\/\/43\/7\/\/44\/8\/\/45\/9\/\/NdNd\/0Nd\/\/Nd\/\/NcNdN1Ne/Na()()()()()()()()()()()Nb
03:18:02 <oerjan> printing the number of ()'s in decimal
03:18:20 <oerjan> !slashes /Na/\/N1\///Nb/\/\/Nd()\/Nd1Nd\/\/1Nd\/Nd1\/\/Nd1111111111\/1\\Nd\/\/NcNd\/Nc\/\/Nc\/Nd\/\/Ne\/Nd\/\/11\/2\/\/21\/3\/\/22\/4\/\/23\/5\/\/42\/6\/\/43\/7\/\/44\/8\/\/45\/9\/\/NdNd\/0Nd\/\/Nd\/\/NcNdN1Ne/Na()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()Nb
03:18:35 <oerjan> !slashes /Na/\/N1\///Nb/\/\/Nd()\/Nd1Nd\/\/1Nd\/Nd1\/\/Nd1111111111\/1\\Nd\/\/NcNd\/Nc\/\/Nc\/Nd\/\/Ne\/Nd\/\/11\/2\/\/21\/3\/\/22\/4\/\/23\/5\/\/42\/6\/\/43\/7\/\/44\/8\/\/45\/9\/\/NdNd\/0Nd\/\/Nd\/\/NcNdN1Ne/Na()Nb
03:18:39 <oerjan> !slashes /Na/\/N1\///Nb/\/\/Nd()\/Nd1Nd\/\/1Nd\/Nd1\/\/Nd1111111111\/1\\Nd\/\/NcNd\/Nc\/\/Nc\/Nd\/\/Ne\/Nd\/\/11\/2\/\/21\/3\/\/22\/4\/\/23\/5\/\/42\/6\/\/43\/7\/\/44\/8\/\/45\/9\/\/NdNd\/0Nd\/\/Nd\/\/NcNdN1Ne/NaNb
03:18:49 <oerjan> well that seems to work
03:19:36 <elliott> !slashes /()()()()()/5/()()()()()
03:19:58 <elliott> it prints the number of ()s, what more do you want
03:21:47 <elliott> oh man, they've made a movie out of atlas shrugged
03:21:53 <elliott> i can barely contain my excitement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
03:22:00 <lament> is it 2834927349872398789 hours long
03:22:15 <elliott> lament: close, 28349273498723987890
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03:22:31 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W07bFa4TzM
03:22:37 <elliott> the motion is weird, all super-smooth
03:23:06 <elliott> maybe they filmed it in TV movie fps ;D
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03:30:02 <oerjan> !slashes /Na/\/N0\///Nb/()\//Na()()()NbN0
03:30:11 <oerjan> !slashes /Na/\/N0\///Nb/()\//Na()()()()()NbN0
03:30:18 <oerjan> !slashes /Na/\/N0\///Nb/()\//NaNbN0
03:30:24 <elliott> oerjan: your code approaches saltiness
03:30:33 <oerjan> !slashes /Na/\/N0\///()Nb/\///Nb/\//Na()()()NbN0
03:30:38 <oerjan> !slashes /Na/\/N0\///()Nb/\///Nb/\//Na()()()()()NbN0
03:30:43 <oerjan> !slashes /Na/\/N0\///()Nb/\///Nb/\//Na()NbN0
03:30:49 <oerjan> !slashes /Na/\/N0\///()Nb/\///Nb/\//NaNbN0
03:31:05 <oerjan> !slashes /Na/\/N0\///()Nb/\///Nb/\//NaNbN0hm
03:31:24 <oerjan> !slashes /Na/\/N1\///Nb/\/\/Nc()\/N1Nc\/\/Nc\/\/\/N0\/NcN1\//Na()()()NbN0
03:31:34 <oerjan> !slashes /Na/\/N1\///Nb/\/\/Nc()\/N1Nc\/\/Nc\/\/\/N0\/NcN1\//Na()()()()NbN0
03:31:35 <EgoBot> ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()
03:31:56 <oerjan> !slashes /Na/\/N0\///Nb/\//Na()()()NbN0
03:32:16 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Useless ;; can we declare war on the state of TehZ?
03:32:28 <oerjan> elliott: i just needed to append something to check that it was properly empty and not a crash
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03:39:00 <elliott> 15:26:21 <oerjan> Now for an important question: Given only the characters / and \, what should the BCT interpreter output?
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03:45:03 <oerjan> that was not, alas, an option.
03:49:42 <oerjan> yes but outputting kittens with just / and \ is rather difficult
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03:52:10 <elliott> actually that's more like cthulhu
03:52:25 <oerjan> and by that i mean, neither space nor newline is available.
03:52:34 <elliott> oh, i forgot about that.:D
03:52:52 <elliott> http://www.nyder.com/cthulhu/graphics/hello_cthulhu2.gif
03:53:38 <oerjan> everyone's favorite madness-inducing plush monster
03:54:38 <elliott> oerjan it's almost 6 am what on earth are you doing up
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05:36:45 <olsner> <oerjan> <Vorpal> this is worse than auto-tuning his voice
05:36:45 <olsner> * oerjan now has the vague image of adjusting the visuals to be pornographic, while keeping the soundtrack as usual
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06:38:28 <quintopia> "In the PAQ8HP series, the dictionary is organized by grouping syntactically and semantically related words together. This allows models to use just the most significant bits of the dictionary codes as context."
06:38:40 <quintopia> i think this means we could start doing lossy text compression
06:39:00 <quintopia> start by losing exact words...you might get back a synonym instead
06:39:35 <quintopia> then losing grammatical constructs and turns of phrase, where you might get back a different, but also grammatically-correct, and semantically equivalent phrase
07:06:50 <Vorpal> quintopia, what is the PAQ8HP?
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07:22:45 <Vorpal> <elliott> oerjan it's almost 6 am what on earth are you doing up <--- what were *you* doing up?
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08:42:13 <Phantom_Hoover> http://infinigons.blogspot.com/2011/01/is-programming-new-math.html
08:43:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, it actually seems saner than the title makes out.
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12:24:12 <Ilari> I Just heard a rumour that APNIC has allocated 90%+ of their free address pool. Whoah. The final statistics file comes in about 3 hours.
12:39:38 <Ilari> It had exact numbers too. And the sum of those numbers does check against remaining IP count I got yesterday.
12:40:51 <fizzie> There are quite a few Twitter postings saying APNIC has "~525.000" addresses left now before the last /8.
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12:57:07 <Ilari> Quite close to number I heard (525 056, which is multiple of /24).
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13:35:58 <Ilari> Reportedly ~4M of those are temporary allocations (for debogon), but they won't be released before everything but final /8 runs out.
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15:25:04 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.38 (525056 / 0.03 remain): 2x2k+2x1k+256+2x/32 to Australia, 512k+256k+64k+6x32k+13x16k+60x8k+68x4k+96x2k to China, 1k to Guam, 256 to Hong Kong, 4M(!!!)+1k to Indonesia, 2k to India, 2x16k+4k to Japan, 1k to South Korea, /32 to Pakistan, 256+/48 to Singapore.
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15:25:54 <Ilari> Predicted depletion date: Tomorrow.
15:26:05 <oerjan> down 0.38 to 0.03? wow.
15:31:54 <Ilari> Also looks like somebody's allocation got really fragmented. I count 2M addresses in 242(!) fragments.
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15:45:06 <elliott> 07:22:45: <Vorpal> <elliott> oerjan it's almost 6 am what on earth are you doing up <--- what were *you* doing up?
15:45:42 <elliott> 15:25:54: <Ilari> Predicted depletion date: Tomorrow.
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16:00:32 <Vorpal> <elliott> it was only almost 5 am <-- ah okay. Carry on then
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16:05:16 <cheater> Ilari http://www.hostblogger.de/blog/archives/5199-Video-We-are-running-out-of-ip-addresses.html
16:06:10 <cheater> [18:05] * ørjan :Erroneous Nickname
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16:08:54 <Ilari> Oh, I have seen that video before.
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16:16:54 <Ilari> Okay, that 4M block will likely be back to allocation soon, but not before APNIC has already run out (but that block will be gone really rapidly when it is back).
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16:21:50 <Ilari> APNIC IPv6 pool: 1 039 095 /32s remaining.
16:23:46 <Ilari> 514 808 /32s to go before reaching the half-block threshold.
16:28:17 <Ilari> Compare with all APNIC IPv6 allocations/assignements being a total of 27 893 /32s.
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16:32:31 <Ilari> APNIC needs to expand the allocations some 18.4-fold to reach the half-block limit.
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17:11:33 <oklopol> i find it a pretty horrible thought that psychopaths aren't nice people because they don't have feelings that force them to be that way
17:11:49 <oklopol> i hope it's just tv that has given me the impression
17:12:40 <oklopol> personally i find that i'm amoral only when not thinking clearly
17:12:57 * elliott is vaguely suspicious of oklopol's definition of moral
17:13:19 <elliott> but err, are you suggesting sociopaths are just constantly confused :D
17:13:51 <oklopol> no, on the contrary, it is my understanding that they are automatically supposed to be amoral because they don't have a conscience
17:14:12 <oklopol> i don't have really have a conscience either afaik
17:14:30 <oklopol> maybe i just never did anything wrong
17:14:41 * elliott attempts to assess the risk to humanity oklopol poses
17:15:07 <oklopol> you're the one who once said your life is more valuable than anything in the world
17:15:40 <oklopol> i wouldn't let more than a few people i know die before myself; although probably thousands of people i don't know
17:16:15 <elliott> did i say that? i don't remember saying that.
17:16:16 <oklopol> depends on the distance too
17:16:31 <elliott> i've said that humans are prone to valuing themselves over pretty much everything else.
17:16:37 <oklopol> it was part of that one torture talk
17:17:53 <elliott> hey, looks like my counting of the sequences were off
17:17:55 <elliott> there's actually 702 posts
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17:24:03 <oklopol> monqy: STATE YOUR BUSINESS or i guess you can idle too.
17:25:56 <monqy> my business is usually idling
17:26:47 <elliott> hasn't monqy been here before PRETTY SURE THEY HAVE
17:26:54 <elliott> they might be trying to invade :/
17:27:17 <monqy> yesterday, at least. maybe the day before
17:27:21 <oklopol> what, i can't be polite and welcoming to people who have been here before?
17:27:43 <oklopol> elliott is quite a ruin ur fun pants
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17:30:14 <oklopol> what if there was a programming language based on stuff?
17:30:30 <oklopol> and then i was thinking, there could be things too
17:30:45 <oklopol> and what's the coolest is that it's completely based on stuff and things
17:31:27 <oklopol> does python have matrices in some lib
17:32:01 <oklopol> which reminds me, i need to write a few programs in ml
17:32:09 <oklopol> they're really hard listen
17:32:24 <oklopol> you need to write this func that takes two lists of the same length, and then it like zips them
17:32:48 <oklopol> recursively of course so that you learn to think like a person who writes recursive functions for a living
17:33:01 <elliott> oklopol: dude, that's, like, a catamorphism.
17:33:59 <monqy> I'd write recursive functions for a living if someone paid me to write recursive functions
17:34:37 <elliott> monqy: so is your name pronounced like paraguay or like fish
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17:36:20 <oklopol> elliott: does is this look a good one: fun zip a,b and c,d = c:: d+a zip
17:36:44 <elliott> funnest funfest zip a,b and c,d = c:: d+a zip
17:36:57 <oklopol> and then i have that cut a list in a pices
17:37:11 <elliott> you need knife.ml to cut thing
17:37:26 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> i'm really sleep
17:37:30 <HackEgo> 360) <oklopol> i'm really sleep
17:37:30 <elliott> i can never seem to get a good night's oklopol
17:37:44 <oklopol> stop hitting on me silyl :D
17:37:47 <monqy> I'm not quite sure how monqy is pronounced, myself. I usually pronounce it like mɒnki, but I might be wrong
17:38:00 <oklopol> monqy: is it your actual first name?
17:38:15 <monqy> no; that would be a silly first name
17:38:28 * Gregor sobs quietly at the first name he's hidden for so many years.
17:38:59 <oklopol> Gregor: it's sad that your name is one of your things
17:39:22 <oklopol> no matter how awesome it is
17:39:23 <Gregor> ... that ... was a sentence.
17:39:54 <oklopol> thing = memorable thing about a thing
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17:40:27 <Gregor> oklopol: Unlike okloklokloklokloklokloklokloklokloklokloklo
17:40:41 <oklopol> my nick is kind of one of my things i suppose
17:40:51 <oklopol> people like talking about it for some reason
17:41:04 <oklopol> but you have told us that Gregor is your actual name like 50 times
17:41:49 <Phantom_Hoover> So my aunt says she saw someone walking around Venice who I swear is the Slender Man except he had a pink shirt on which kind of spoils the image.
17:41:55 <Gregor> I dont't think I've told you fifty times, probably only when relevant and otherwise implied :P
17:42:03 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: PINK SHIRTS SPOIL NOTHING
17:42:32 <oklopol> Gregor: well at least 4, you pretty much mention it every time people talk about not using their name on them nets
17:42:41 <oklopol> 4 is a lot, i've only seen like 100000 of your lines
17:43:02 <oklopol> (i like reading the same ones many times, i just grep Gregor and go nuts)
17:43:20 <Gregor> Well, I am only one of two people who regularly talks here that uses his real name ...
17:43:45 <Gregor> The other being pooppy, his real name is in fact Pooppy (although he translated it into Latin on IRC)
17:44:25 <oklopol> asiekierka: just saying your name is actually asiekierka
17:44:41 <asiekierka> asiekierka is short for adrian siekierka
17:44:47 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> So my aunt says she saw someone walking around Venice who I swear is the Slender Man except he had a pink shirt on which kind of spoils the image.
17:44:50 <asiekierka> did you think im asie kierka or something
17:44:52 <elliott> it's "is Slenderman" u illiterate fuk
17:45:03 <oklopol> asiekierka: ais isn't ais's actual name either, but based on it
17:45:09 <elliott> ok i guess the the is acceptable
17:45:19 <elliott> <Gregor> Well, I am only one of two people who regularly talks here that uses his real name ...
17:45:25 <elliott> I'm actually subhuman, so I'm not offended.
17:45:36 <Gregor> elliott: We all know your real name is Alice.
17:45:56 <Gregor> elliott: No, because if it's Alise then that would mean you have used your real name ;)
17:46:14 <elliott> My name is Estoppel Verquire St.XII
17:46:27 <Phantom_Hoover> [18:44] <elliott> it's "is Slenderman" u illiterate fuk
17:47:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Well I'm sorry but my amygdala makes my life hell if I read about it so I'm not exactly well-versed.
17:48:30 <oklopol> asiekierka: sorry typoed, meant to say tasty
17:53:30 <Gregor> oklopol: Why don't you go fuck a fruit basket.
17:53:32 <Gregor> elliott: And you're a slut.
17:53:58 <elliott> that is the saddest smiley
17:54:11 <Gregor> OH GOD now for years the entire conversation will be in an unmatched paren D-8
17:54:29 <elliott> oklopol: i thought the : after Gregor was the eyes
17:54:35 <elliott> the space made it ten times as sad
17:54:51 <Gregor> He's wearing my name as a hat, and sad that he doesn't have a nose.
17:54:56 <oklopol> Gregor: i get it, because you love hats
17:55:10 <Gregor> One day, "Gregor" will be a synonym for "hat"
17:55:22 <Gregor> "It's raining, grab your Gregor" no wait, maybe I don't want this ...
17:55:24 <oklopol> and then you will have a choosemygregor site
17:55:39 <Phantom_Hoover> WELL ANYWAY GUYS I HAVE TO FOOD AND I DON'T TRUST MY FAMILY WITH THIS LAPTOP UNATTENDED
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17:56:11 <elliott> I FORGOT TO ASK HIM SOMETHING
17:58:02 <oklopol> sheesh what a silly-doodle, won't ask later just keeps on complaining
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18:24:23 <oklopol> well you know those young athletes that are always missing their fucking only chance in life to play in front of talent scouts
18:24:40 <oklopol> that annoys me even more than the stereotypical psychopaths
18:28:34 <olsner> psychopaths would probably know how to reach their goals without annoying you
18:29:27 <oklopol> i'm never annoyed by people
18:29:35 <oklopol> only tv shows and machines
18:30:02 <olsner> oh, you're talking about athletes and psychopaths in tv shows?
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18:44:29 <elliott> Vorpal: do you know if Alexia Massalin has done any kernel/OS work since Synthesis? Wikipedia has nuthin'
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19:16:44 <augur> yesterday i acquired an original distribution of hypercard :T
19:17:29 <augur> i walked up to a table that happened to be giving it away, and i took it
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19:42:32 <oklopol> my crt decided to start randomly shrinking, widening and twisting the screen so had to give it a break
19:42:52 <elliott> it was just enjoying some nice drugs
19:43:19 <oklopol> it's way too old for that stuff
19:44:02 <elliott> drugs are for kids, grampa
19:44:41 <oklopol> if my lcd was on lsd, i wouldn't mind
19:45:10 <elliott> but it's not ok if your crt is on ecstasy GOD I LVOE RHYMING
19:49:43 <elliott> `addquote <Gregor> elliott: Fythe-generated code doesn't use C calling conventions, because C calling conventions are for pussies.
19:49:45 <HackEgo> 361) <Gregor> elliott: Fythe-generated code doesn't use C calling conventions, because C calling conventions are for pussies.
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21:29:09 <olsner> oh, esr wrote the art of unix programming? I guess there's a point to him after all
21:29:21 <elliott> olsner: but that book sucks
21:29:29 <elliott> olsner: he uses fetchmail as an example constantly
21:29:41 <olsner> it does? what's fetchmail? :P
21:30:13 <olsner> and there are people on the internet that claim it's a good book!
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21:30:29 <elliott> olsner: fetchmail is esr's shitty mail fetching program.
21:30:55 <elliott> Oh, looks like he also used it constantly in The Cathedral and the Bazaar.
21:31:05 <elliott> Some programmers, including Dan Bernstein, getmail creator Charles Cazabon and FreeBSD developer Terry Lambert, have criticized Fetchmail's design,[3] its number of security holes,[4] and that it was prematurely put into "maintenance mode".
21:31:48 <olsner> at "<elliott> Approx. 0 people use it." and "<elliott> Oh, looks like he also used it constantly in The Cathedral and the Bazaar."
21:31:59 <elliott> err, I mean, as an example
21:34:41 <olsner> eugh, stack overflow seems to be full of people who read pragmatic programmer and it somehow revolutionized their lives as programmers
21:35:39 <elliott> olsner: joel spolsky + jeff atwood =/= good site with clever people
21:36:50 <olsner> the worst thing is we have a couple of them at work that are like "hey, I read this book, if we implement every idea in it stuff will magically become awesome!"
21:38:08 <olsner> then they get upset that nothing really happens after that except a prompt for a more thought-out argument about the benefits of said tool/process/idea/technology :)
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21:45:20 <elliott> ais523: did Wooble just ragequit _AGAIN_?
21:45:54 <elliott> ais523: also, _please_ get an economic proposal out
21:46:01 <elliott> points-as-economy is gaining rapid acceptance, and ugh
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21:50:27 <ais523> you know you can write proposals yourself, right?
21:52:25 <elliott> ais523: I'm not very good at writing rules :)
21:52:33 <elliott> ais523: besides, IIRC you're the one who's done most of the work on it
21:52:36 <ais523> zzo38: for a game, Agora
21:53:44 <zzo38> What is this game?
21:56:28 <zzo38> What do you have so far?
21:56:54 <elliott> It's been going since 1993 :P
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22:15:23 <oerjan> zzo38: agora is quite likely the oldest still running nomic in existence
22:15:42 <elliott> and the second-oldest internet nomic, no?
22:15:49 <elliott> unless there were minor ones in the nomicworld era
22:15:58 <oerjan> i don't know if there were any before nomic world
22:16:10 <elliott> there weren't, I don't think
22:16:25 <oerjan> there could have been some email ones... NW was MUD-based
22:16:44 <elliott> I know what Nomic World was dude :P
22:16:49 <ais523> isn't the FRC technically older than Agora?
22:16:52 <elliott> ISTR NomicWiki calling it the oldest.
22:16:59 <elliott> ais523: FRC is as much of a nomic as Canada
22:17:26 <ais523> hey, its rules change sometimes
22:17:31 <oerjan> frc could in principle be played as a nomic but that would be out of spirit
22:18:24 <ais523> elliott: I'm running a BlogNomic dynasty atm, btw
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22:18:51 <elliott> ais523: OK; I think I have some sort of fundamental difference in ethos with BlogNomic, though, because it always seems constantly boring to me
22:18:59 <ais523> it is constantly boring
22:18:59 * oerjan recalls imperial nomic. are there any of those going on still?
22:19:05 <ais523> that's why it has such larger player turnover
22:19:45 <ais523> trying to make BlogNomic interesting is one of the biggest challenges of nomic
22:19:53 <ais523> which is quite a reason to play it, if you want a /real/ challenge
22:21:03 <elliott> ais523: but I'd have to fight a lot of all the players, probably
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22:38:48 <zzo38> Show mercy to the green lives under your foot.
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22:41:32 <zzo38> Then go drink hydroxic acid!
22:42:22 <oerjan> to live dangerously, i prefer some dihydrogen monoxide
22:42:41 <elliott> zzo38: Why do you keep saying "go drink hydroxic acid"
22:42:46 <zzo38> OK fine, prefer some dihydrogen monoxide, if that is what you prefer, please.
22:43:11 <zzo38> elliott: I don't know the answer to that question.
22:43:29 <zzo38> And if you put a question mark then I probably still won't know.
22:43:47 <elliott> zzo38: Why do you keep saying "go drink hydroxic acid"?
22:43:59 <zzo38> I still don't know.
22:44:18 <oerjan> zzo38, a master of prediction
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22:44:32 <elliott> Or at least some kind of diction.
22:51:10 <Sgeo> zzo38, why should I show mercy to .. crud, I don't know enough to make a semi-decent joke
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22:55:56 <Sgeo> I want to say forest lovers
22:55:58 <Sgeo> But that sucks
22:57:49 <zzo38> Then say something else, or do something else, or _____________.
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23:08:12 <zzo38> I wrote down something, some idea, it is a 4x4 game, each player has five pieces, which are cubes on top of a coin, the coin has arrow to face in four directions and can be flipped over to belong to the other side, and can be held and dropped as in shogi. If you reach the king's corner you roll the dice. You win if you capture opponent's king or if you leave opponent with no legal moves.
23:09:00 <zzo38> And that you can also, when capturing, turn your cube in any direction except to the other side. When non-capturing, you can turn around 90 degrees clockwise/counterclockwise by optionally.
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23:19:31 <elliott> oerjan: why is division evil :(
23:19:45 <elliott> (a+b)-b = a, even mod n, but the same doesn't hold for division
23:19:56 <oerjan> it's used for conquest
23:19:59 <elliott> e.g. if m = n/2, then (m*2)/2 = 0 mod n
23:20:11 <elliott> distressing how long it took me to realise that
23:20:39 <oerjan> it's true if the divisor is relatively prime to the modulus
23:21:57 <oerjan> for the right definition of division modulo something
23:23:01 <elliott> oerjan: all operations modulo
23:23:08 <elliott> oerjan: i.e. (m*2) mod n / 2 mod n
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23:25:07 <oerjan> although usually you can defer the modulus until the end if you want, the trick is that with division you need to be careful
23:25:30 <oerjan> when calculating m / 2, you need to choose a representative of m that is actually even
23:25:57 <elliott> oerjan: i defaulted to the easier solution, i.e. saving the initial value
23:26:03 <oerjan> if n is odd that is of course easy
23:26:09 <elliott> oerjan: (this is for restoring the pre-overflow value if a calculation overflows so that I can promote it to bignum and try again)
23:26:32 <elliott> for addition I just subtracted, but that doesn't work for multiplication, so yeah
23:26:56 <elliott> have you ever had your brain simultaneously operating at the assembly level and at a bignums-and-garbage-collectors level?
23:28:38 <elliott> oerjan: hm given ceil(log_2(n+1)) and m, is there an easy way to get something close to (but possibly greater than) ceil(log_2((n*m)+1))?
23:29:21 <elliott> gmp appears to offer a guarantee that any bignum's log_2 will fit into an unsigned long, and you can preallocate a bignum with space for N bits
23:29:44 <elliott> so if I could preallocate well...
23:30:13 <oerjan> well log2(n*m) = log2(n)+log2(m)
23:30:56 <oerjan> if that isn't close enough, i don't know
23:31:29 <elliott> actually it's probably a waste of time, I'll let gmp handle that :-P
23:35:26 <elliott> oerjan: can you believe it? it's broken! wowzers!
23:35:31 <elliott> unless multiplication doesn't set overflow
23:35:38 <elliott> that would be really shitty
23:36:34 <elliott> how interesting, IMul doesn't actually...multiply
23:37:23 <Sgeo> Wait, they put limits on the size of a bignum?
23:41:21 <elliott> OK, wait, this is totally messed up, IAdd isn't doing addition either
23:41:34 <elliott> unless it's somehow doing it with leaq
23:45:26 <oerjan> behold: http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/deadfish.itf
23:45:43 <elliott> oerjan: have I mentioned my marriage proposal recently?
23:45:51 <elliott> does it implement True Deadfish Wraparound? :-)
23:45:53 <elliott> 23:37:23: <Sgeo> Wait, they put limits on the size of a bignum?
23:45:58 <elliott> Sgeo: C does that from the start.
23:46:09 <oerjan> no, but you did mention a need for more esolang deadfish interpreters
23:46:22 <oerjan> elliott: but of course, that was the easy part
23:46:26 <elliott> Sgeo: besides, I'd like to see you store 2^(2^32 - 1) on ANY computer!
23:46:54 <oerjan> (the ./N.a****************N.b./N.aN.b./
23:46:55 <elliott> it's not _that_ long I guess
23:46:58 <Sgeo> elliott, you just did ::trollface::
23:47:08 <zzo38> I have written Deadfish implementation in Gforth, and in TeX.
23:47:32 <oerjan> this is itflabtijtslwi since it needs input
23:47:37 <Sgeo> Of course, you mean in a representation also capable of storing integers less than that number in an equal amount of space or less
23:47:49 <Sgeo> Ermm, less than that number but greater than 0
23:47:55 <elliott> oerjan: isn't itflabtijtslwi kinda cross?
23:47:56 <oerjan> warning: don't try printing numbers much larger than 1000
23:47:57 <zzo38> Yes, can be implemented with itflabtijtslwi, or brainfuck, or INTERCAL, or whatever else you want
23:48:06 <Sgeo> Yeah yeah, don't feel like fixing my definition to deal with negatives
23:48:12 <oerjan> elliott: it only adds a single GG...GG command...
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23:48:19 <elliott> oerjan: well that's syntactically gross.
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23:48:42 <elliott> oerjan: I'd make //foo/ instead be the same as /foo/\char/
23:48:47 <elliott> sine //foo/ never does anything useful ever
23:48:58 <Sgeo> Why is there an XKCD version of Deadfish?
23:49:04 <oerjan> maybe. but i went with the language which is also there
23:49:07 <zzo38> There is no negatives in Deadfish
23:49:26 <zzo38> I don't know why there is a XKCD variation
23:50:15 <Sgeo> "The language defined by the Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme
23:50:59 <elliott> Sgeo: you can thank me for that
23:51:07 <elliott> perfectly factually correct
23:51:27 <elliott> "Scheme" is ambiguous, there are at least six languages called Scheme
23:51:32 <elliott> defined by various reports
23:51:32 <Sgeo> Yeah, but who, besides an esolanger, says that?
23:51:43 <elliott> "R5RS Scheme" is nonsense when R5RS is expanded
23:51:45 <Sgeo> Most humans say R5RS
23:51:57 <elliott> Sgeo: nobody besides an esolanger says that
23:52:11 <elliott> zzo38: there ARE negatives with Deadfish
23:52:13 <Sgeo> Most humans are esolangers.
23:52:16 <elliott> oh wait, hmm, there aren't
23:52:21 <elliott> but there would be, if you could get -2 somehow
23:52:46 <elliott> 23:51:45: <Sgeo> Most humans say R5RS
23:52:52 <elliott> most humans don't say it at all. but most humans just say Scheme
23:53:30 <oerjan> well we _were_ discussing xkcd, almost.
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23:54:05 <oerjan> i'm not sure that "I don't know why there is a XKCD variation" counts as discussing xkcd itself
23:55:06 * elliott makes friends with the latest esowiki spambot
23:55:10 <elliott> they're just misunderstood
23:55:16 <oerjan> tswett: you may also like http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/deadfish.itf
23:55:43 <oerjan> because he invented /// ?
23:55:46 <tswett> What sort of file is that?
23:55:49 <elliott> nonsense, he's not ihope127!
23:56:13 <tswett> oerjan: please send me that link again right now.
23:56:14 <oerjan> tswett: an Itflabtijtslwi source file
23:56:21 <elliott> tswett: http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/deadfish.itf
23:56:25 <elliott> forgot to switch to my alternate nick
23:56:49 <oerjan> ok so tswett is not ihope127 but elliott is me. got it.
23:58:13 <zzo38> Even Free Geek uses Plain TeX and DVI, because I showed them how to do it, and I helped them with it.
23:58:42 <zzo38> But I helped them with the drive wiping script, too.
23:59:12 <elliott> so, umn, zzo38, you know assembly right?
23:59:29 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, I know a bit.
23:59:58 <zzo38> I don't know what AT&T syntax is. I only used MS-DOS DEBUG syntax.
00:00:38 <elliott> so oerjan, you know assembly right :trollface:
00:01:30 <oerjan> i think i wrote an assembly program once back in the 1980s, maybe. it may have printed hello world or something like that.
00:01:54 <elliott> argh this makes no sense :(
00:03:05 <zzo38> What part is no sense?
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00:42:59 * Sgeo would love to have a computer that obeyed Loper OS's Laws
00:43:09 <zzo38> What is Loper OS's Laws?
00:44:06 <Sgeo> elliott, yeah, the guy's name isn't Loper OS, I know
00:44:09 <elliott> Loper OS has no laws that I am aware of. perhaps you would like to clarify, or just call me the shit-faced pedant i am
00:44:10 <Sgeo> It's easier to remember
00:44:23 <elliott> STANISLAV: hard to remember
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00:44:47 <Sgeo> zzo38, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=284
00:45:02 <elliott> Allow me to quote visionary Terry Davis on the subject.
00:45:04 <elliott> "Rules for insane computing:
00:45:04 <elliott> 1) User and all programs should have kernel (ring 0)access at all times. It’s your frigging machine, do what you like without supid hassles like permissions.
00:45:04 <elliott> Operating Systems obeying this:
00:45:04 <elliott> 1) The 64-bit LoseThos Operating System
00:45:04 <elliott> I’m funded from social security disability for being insane."
00:48:59 <Sgeo> Is that just a random comment, or is there an actual critique of Stanislav's thoughts hidden in there somewhere?
00:49:09 <Sgeo> If the latter.. seems more like a strawman
00:49:19 <Sgeo> s/critique/attempted critique/
00:49:34 <elliott> Sgeo: That's from the author of LoseThos.
00:49:44 <elliott> He's funded from social security disability for being insane.
00:50:20 <Sgeo> Wait... Terry Davis _is_ the LoseThos guy?
00:50:25 <Sgeo> Or just mocking him?
00:50:48 <elliott> [[Are you that stupid? It's because whites are superior and don't need help. Why do you think it is? We all live on the same planet, don't we? Even God said, "Look at sports."]] --visionary Terry Davis
00:51:56 <Sgeo> I'm sorry, I refuse to believe that that comment on Loper-OS is genuinely from Terry Davis
00:51:57 <elliott> omg terry davis is writing an osdev manual
00:52:11 <elliott> "So, you plan to do USB, do you? There are three PCI controllers, UHCI, EHCI and
00:52:11 <elliott> OHCI with USB 3.0 thrown in there somewhere, too. Okay, so how many
00:52:11 <elliott> manufacturers of those controllers? Maybe, they're standard."
00:52:29 <elliott> Sgeo: To be fair, I don't really give a shit what you think, but it is the truth.
00:52:40 <elliott> Especially since AFAIK he hadn't revealed his name before then.
00:52:49 <elliott> Also he posted a gloating ridiculous comment a short while later criticising Loper OS.
00:53:20 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:54:15 <elliott> "(I took the time to write a story and one ass-hole down-voted it, burying it. In case you didn't notice, most people lurk and only teenaged girls vote. I know this for a fact because I've seen page views counts and like one in ten actually votes. Teen age girls.)"
00:54:42 <elliott> "smelly butt, fucken homo" --visionary Terry Davis
01:01:15 <elliott> "You're a nobody. Read 1984. Metallica Nirvana, on and on. Nash. Don Quixote" --visionary Terry Davis on his being mad
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01:02:44 <zzo38> About operating system with all programs ring 0 access at all times, it is something with a new computer I might make up. Security is implemented in separate hardware (also inside the computer) and can be bypassed by changing a jumper. Even if it is not bypassed, you still have direct access to most hardware.
01:02:50 <tswett> Well, that dead fish file look very nice.
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01:03:45 <tswett> I'm guessing that by "[read] Metallica Nirvana", he means "listen to many songs by Metallica and Nirvana and similar bands".
01:03:56 <tswett> Which... is really probably pretty obvious.
01:04:42 <elliott> http://www.trivialsolutions.biz/BornAgain.html
01:05:19 <zzo38> (Instructions for changing the jumper will be included in the manual, although you still need a screwdriver (no special "security" screwdriver or any rare stuff like that is needed, just a normal common one will do); this is to prevent software vendors from abusing it.)
01:06:19 <zzo38> elliott: Are *you* weird????? Or do I weird using too much question mark??????????????
01:06:47 * Sgeo is sad that work on LoperOS seems... stalled
01:07:04 <elliott> Sgeo: he's moved to an fpga solution.
01:07:10 <elliott> work on loperos never started.
01:08:36 <elliott> Sgeo: it was in a comment.
01:08:54 <elliott> it's not very relevant, there's approximately 0 chance it will ever get finished
01:09:07 <elliott> http://www.loper-os.org/?p=316&cpage=1#comment-1421
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01:54:23 <zzo38> Another thing I want to see in GNU GPL v4 is something that allows anyone to sue someone who violates the license (unless all copyright holders agree to make an exception), including non-copyright-holders, to ensure better that the other company does not violate the license.
01:54:38 <elliott> i don't think that's legally valid.
01:55:01 <zzo38> Are you sure there is not some kind of way to write it that makes it legally valid?
01:55:39 <elliott> no. i am sure of very little.
01:58:25 <oerjan> being sure of very little.
01:58:47 <elliott> oerjan: well i mean i'm sure of the big things, like I exist and most of you exist and the universe exists and this computer exists and the like.
01:58:53 <elliott> it's more abstract things i'm not very sure of.
01:59:02 <elliott> those are actually the little things
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01:59:06 <elliott> the real world is pretty irrelevant
01:59:08 <calamari> zzo38: you're allowed to sue someone for any reason you want
01:59:17 <elliott> calamari: i don't think he meant sue
01:59:18 <zzo38> To ask someone who does know more about copyright laws, to tell about legally valid.
02:08:46 <zzo38> The current version of TeX is 535 pages long (not counting footnotes or any system-dependent changes). I have never written a program that long, and I might or might not do so in future, I do not know.
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02:24:14 <Sgeo> 'I really don't have any ideas on making a better browser and I think doing a network "stack" (as the kids say) is difficult. I have a feeling there are propriatary Microsoft network protocols involved?'
02:27:21 * Sgeo stumbles upon Terry Davis's Reddit page
02:28:24 <Sgeo> 'God says... tamedst longings blushed larger hardship handkerchief seemed rejection swelling commencement fallen Senators wroth abundantly virginity pleasantness compass unhesitatingly credibility growing lusteth slaves powerful afar bears anything impious storm enlarged cannot Willeth Passing transitory debtor hovered might eyesight ancient confound melted meantime wearing unbending wives seasons filth' --Terry Davis
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02:29:00 <Sgeo> What is Reddit, some place where you throw in random words to get a hit?
02:30:06 <Sgeo> Is he using a random word thingy to try to determine what God says? I ... tried that once, actually. When it was incoherent, I rejected God
02:32:04 <Sgeo> Oh, it's his trying to speak in tongues, I think
02:32:14 <Sgeo> http://www.trivialsolutions.biz/BornAgain.html
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02:46:55 <elliott> 02:28:24: <Sgeo> 'God says... tamedst longings blushed larger hardship handkerchief seemed rejection swelling commencement fallen Senators wroth abundantly virginity pleasantness compass unhesitatingly credibility growing lusteth slaves powerful afar bears anything impious storm enlarged cannot Willeth Passing transitory debtor hovered might eyesight ancient confound melted meantime wearing unbending wives seasons filth' --Terry Davis
02:47:01 <elliott> Sgeo: Yes yes, those are in all of his posts.
02:47:05 <elliott> 02:30:06: <Sgeo> Is he using a random word thingy to try to determine what God says? I ... tried that once, actually. When it was incoherent, I rejected God
02:47:15 <elliott> (1) He coded a random word thing. It is his God communication program.
02:47:23 <elliott> (2) That is the most retarded fucking reason to reject God ever.
02:47:28 <elliott> 02:32:04: <Sgeo> Oh, it's his trying to speak in tongues, I think
02:47:31 <elliott> No, it's really a random number program.
02:47:33 <elliott> 02:32:14: <Sgeo> http://www.trivialsolutions.biz/BornAgain.html
02:47:58 <Sgeo> I was exaggerating. More accurate to say that I failed to find God again
02:49:04 <elliott> If you "tried to find God again" evidently any atheism you had was not founded on any kind of logic at all.
02:50:32 <lament> twiddling with random numbers in your generator sounds like exactly something an omniscient, omnipotent entity in charge of life in the universe would be doing
02:50:54 <Sgeo> lament, if it wanted to convince me that it was there, it could
02:50:55 <elliott> lament: It is certainly true that only an omniscient, omnipotent entity would be able to do that.
02:51:01 <elliott> lament: But it's nonsense to assume such an entity WOULD.
02:51:32 <elliott> I mean, one, you can't even hope to predict or understand any action by any entity so immensely more intelligent or knowledgeable, and two, that sounds like a waste of time.
02:51:45 <lament> Sgeo: but not anyone else, making you the next prophet. also quite likely
02:52:07 <elliott> Sgeo: I don't know of any religion that has as a core belief "God tries to convince people he exists in every way possible, especially if they're trying to be all sciencey on me".
02:52:27 <elliott> It's more like "If you accept Jesus *then* he'll come and sodomise your soul with love."
02:52:36 <lament> elliott: well what i would do if i were omniscient and omnipotent would be to create an immortal woman with perfect tits and bang her for the rest of eternity
02:53:03 <elliott> `addquote <lament> elliott: well what i would do if i were omniscient and omnipotent would be to create an immortal woman with perfect tits and bang her for the rest of eternity
02:53:06 <HackEgo> 362) <lament> elliott: well what i would do if i were omniscient and omnipotent would be to create an immortal woman with perfect tits and bang her for the rest of eternity
02:53:19 <Sgeo> lament, that's assuming you have a sex drive, and that that sex drive is directed to attraction to women with tits. Oh, that's implied with "what _I_ would do" I guess
02:53:30 <lament> i suspect that is in fact what God did and that's why prayers go unanswered
02:53:40 <elliott> lament: that's my new favourite version of deism
02:53:49 <lament> Sgeo: god did create Adam in his image according to Genesis
02:54:20 <lament> so Eve, a perfect companion to Adam, is the image of a perfect companion to God
02:54:22 <elliott> "And lo, the LORD saw that it was good, but it could use breasts and less bodily hair. Also more holes."
02:54:54 <lament> (and beer is the image of a perfect Divine beverage)
02:55:04 <elliott> wait, where did beer come in :)
02:55:11 <elliott> was that nestled in all those begats I skipped?
02:55:35 <elliott> And Methuselah begat Yiriminihim who begat beer and lived to 869 years; ...
02:56:27 <elliott> so my backtrace actually has 0x0 at the bottom, how cool is that???
02:56:36 <elliott> I love it when the stack gets clobbered, almost as much as I love Germans
02:58:12 <elliott> something is clobbering the stack
03:00:33 <oerjan> something clobbering this way comes
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03:02:48 <lament> hi variable, nice nick
03:03:15 <elliott> variable: IT'S A TRAP, HE'S GOING TO BAN YOU
03:04:16 <elliott> variable: DON'T TRUST LAMENT.
03:04:44 <lament> if i were to ban somebody right now, why wouldn't it be elliott
03:05:06 <elliott> lament: probably because oerjan likes me too much!
03:05:10 <elliott> now watch as oerjan preemptively bans me
03:05:15 <elliott> all part of my grand master plan
03:06:02 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
03:06:57 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
03:07:04 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
03:07:26 <lament> ends with you being killed?
03:07:42 <elliott> no, usually i'm naked in public.
03:08:02 <zzo38> elliott: You do not appear to be on the access list for this channel.
03:08:23 <elliott> i have this feeling that either lament or oerjan opped me. it is clearly only a matter of time before i appear on that list.
03:08:24 <zzo38> But it still makes you to be the channel operator anyways?
03:09:49 <zzo38> elliott: If lament or oerjan opped you, then why does it says ChanServ? Isn't ChanServ only supposed to set to one who is in the access list?
03:10:01 <elliott> Maybe one of them added me then removed me :P
03:10:07 <elliott> /msg ChanServ op #esoteric elliott
03:10:30 <elliott> oh wait, it even said lament
03:11:55 <elliott> variable: you're just jealous 'cuz i'm fluffy.
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03:23:53 <zzo38> Why it says "The precondition on the request for the URL /w/index.php evaluated to false." but it does not say more specific? How can I know what I did wrong?
03:27:34 <oerjan> i think that means you hit the spam filter?
03:27:40 <elliott> don't use div or span tags
03:28:11 <zzo38> I did not use div or span tags this time. Although once I did manage to add a DIV tag anyways
03:28:32 <elliott> Sprunge the edit you're trying to make?
03:28:37 <zzo38> It also seems that setting the User-Agent wrong causes this message too?
03:28:54 <zzo38> elliott: I did manage to make the edit now, by making some trick.
03:29:15 <zzo38> I put "Tel<b></b>net"
03:29:30 <elliott> Even better you can use a template which expands to nothing.
03:29:35 <elliott> That will have no effect on the resulting HTML.
03:29:53 <elliott> I just made Template:Empty, so you could replace the b tag with {{empty}}.
03:29:57 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, in case of needing it somewhere that <b></b> is not allowed, a template can be used.
03:30:36 <zzo38> But maybe autoconfirmed users should automatically bypass spam filter, or something similar like that?
03:30:43 <zzo38> Should it be designed like that?
03:32:02 <elliott> IIRC it's not at the MediaWiki level.
03:32:30 <zzo38> Who owns this server?
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03:32:43 <Sgeo> Why does the software block telnet?
03:33:41 <zzo38> Another way to do it, possibly, is making it to bypass if you use SSH instead of HTTP.
03:35:04 <Sgeo> Why does PleasePorigeHot have an entry on c2/
03:36:02 <zzo38> O, it is because there is a program there.
03:36:35 <zzo38> I removed some of broken links
03:41:09 * Sgeo wonders if Plan Nine is still alive
03:41:28 <Sgeo> Last release was in 2002
03:41:46 <Sgeo> Wait, didn't I try it before?
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04:21:03 <zzo38> \let~\advance\time0\day0\loop~\time1~\day1~\mit\ifnum\time=3\time0Fizz\fi\ifnum\fam=5Buzz\rm\fi\ifvmode\the\day\fi\endgraf\ifnum\day<100\repeat\bye
04:33:08 * Sgeo WTFs at Menuet unbearable slowness
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04:40:04 <elliott> 03:41:09: * Sgeo wonders if Plan Nine is still alive
04:40:08 <elliott> 03:41:28: <Sgeo> Last release was in 2002
04:40:10 <elliott> 03:41:46: <Sgeo> Wait, didn't I try it before?
04:40:14 <elliott> (2) Nightly CD builds are released
04:40:29 <elliott> 04:33:08: * Sgeo WTFs at Menuet unbearable slowness
04:40:45 <Sgeo> At any rate, I have failed to get Plan 9 to run in VirtualBox
04:41:01 <Sgeo> Or, well, the.. oldish version I downloaded, anyway
04:43:58 <elliott> virtualbox as always only supports the most common operating systems due to trading accuracy for speed
04:45:25 <elliott> hmm, actually that cd image might be fourth edition
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04:45:33 <elliott> whatever, it's updatable from inside
04:46:03 * Sgeo needs to sleep soon
04:50:18 <Sgeo> The Coyotos people have a ... disturbing sense of humor
04:50:23 <Sgeo> http://www.coyotos.org/download/index.html
04:52:21 <elliott> that's not disturbing at all?
04:52:26 <elliott> it was an april fools joke
04:52:35 <elliott> but it's obviously a good point
04:54:39 <Sgeo> It was an April Fools Joke? Thought it was just trying to make that point
04:55:03 <Ilari> About 10 and half hours until next round of APNIC stats. :-)
04:56:07 <Ilari> Well, 525 056 left (well, there's 4M in reachability testing, but unlikely to be released that fast).
04:56:58 <zzo38> There is a userbox in Wikipedia that just says "This userbox is correct"
04:59:12 <Ilari> Anyway, somebody's 2M request from China got seriously fragmented.
05:00:34 <Ilari> ... To 242 fragments.
05:03:02 <elliott> Sgeo: hmm, not actually april fools
05:03:04 <elliott> [[16 May 2008: New web-based installation tool for Windows users.]]
05:03:42 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freescale_ColdFire WANT
05:03:47 <Ilari> Heh, one APNIC member account has 1864 prefixes allocated/assigned.
05:07:14 <Ilari> ... For only ~1.2M of address space.
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05:29:26 <Lymia> Are they getting anything revoked?
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06:32:43 <zzo38> Can you eat human flesh with wooden teeth? What kind of wood is best for doing so, and what color?
06:35:56 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: do you know if Alexia Massalin has done any kernel/OS work since Synthesis? Wikipedia has nuthin' <-- no clue.
06:37:54 <Vorpal> elliott: You could call him/her/whatever and ask?
06:47:57 <lament> volleyball http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6eEefbwYvA
06:48:09 <zzo38> Do you know their telephone number?
06:50:49 <oklopol> that's a sorta weird question
06:51:28 <oerjan> the rest of the question being completely normal, of course...
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06:57:56 <oklopol> zzo38: i'm pretty sure you can, with any kind of wood
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07:15:09 <zzo38> oklopol: Maybe you can, but what kind is best? Has anyone done experiment with this?
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08:07:57 <calamari> zzo38: I ate out your sister, does that count?
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08:12:54 <zzo38> calamari: Did you use wooden teeth?
08:15:42 <calamari> zzo38: does it get to that question, short-circuit evaluation :P
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08:55:19 <zzo38> If you use wooden teeth and you know what kind of wood it is, then maybe it counts?
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15:00:32 <cpressey> ok, so I have cleverly eliminated cons from Bizaaro-Pixley, which is now provisionally going by the name "PAIL" ("LISP" stands for "LISt Processing" -> "PAIL" stands for "PAIr Language")
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15:14:26 <cpressey> I tried cleverly introducing "ubiquitous closures" where not only function values but in fact *every pair* could close over the environment, but I think that's overkill; really, a closure just traps bindings from the environment at the time it's created, and you can do that by evaluating them at that time.
15:20:51 <cpressey> Trying to cleverly eliminate lambda by providing an "uneval" function. It works to some degree, but I haven't convinced myself that one can write recursive functions with it yet, because it's weird enough that I don't completely understand how to use it.
15:22:07 <Ilari> Always nice to actually have to restore something from backup for real. :-/
15:26:06 <Ilari> Hmm... APNIC down 0.00: 2k+/48 Australia, /32 to Japan.
15:26:56 <Ilari> 523 008 addresses left (2043 /24s).
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16:37:44 <Ilari> Logspace left: /13.00
16:39:08 <Ilari> Bascially, any allocation /13 or larger will deplete it. 48 days this year have had such allocations.
16:40:59 <Ilari> And that's about 2/3 of business days.
16:47:32 <Vorpal> <Ilari> Always nice to actually have to restore something from backup for real. :-/ <-- it is nicer to not need it though
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17:01:41 * oerjan tweaks Vorpal's sarcasm detector a notch or five
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17:03:18 <v^> now my message lines start with all four Befunge arrows
17:06:29 * v^ just realized bitbucket is free
17:06:37 <v^> er, has a free private plan
17:07:48 <v^> I should probably move there instead of paying whatever it is I pay per month for whatever version control it is that I use
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17:36:41 <cheater> yes: http://kwejk.pl/obrazek/44037/minecraft.html
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17:41:08 <elliott> 06:35:56: <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: do you know if Alexia Massalin has done any kernel/OS work since Synthesis? Wikipedia has nuthin' <-- no clue.
17:41:08 <elliott> 06:37:54: <Vorpal> elliott: You could call him/her/whatever and ask?
17:41:08 <elliott> Her; and I'm not about to go internetstalking for a phone number :P I suppose if she's still at MicroUnity like Wikipedia says there won't be anything public.
17:41:18 <elliott> "Given the company's overly ambitious goals, Silicon Valley insiders had nicknamed the company MicroLunacy."
17:41:53 <Gregor> cheater: I will punch the SHIT out of those trees.
17:42:41 <elliott> cpressey: No Git love? :-P
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17:42:53 <coppro> elliott: what about scapegoat?
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17:43:39 <elliott> I swear X isn't usually *this* much of an unreliable piece of shit.
17:44:23 <coppro> elliott: what about scapegoat?
17:44:31 <cpressey> elliott: barely any hg love; git love is asking way too much. also, github does not have free private accounts, looks like.
17:44:38 <elliott> coppro: has a striking lack of existence
17:44:44 <elliott> cpressey: just rot13 every file!
17:44:52 <elliott> cpressey: No darcs love? :-P
17:44:59 <coppro> cpressey: github is a service
17:45:03 <coppro> you are not required to use it
17:45:21 <cpressey> coppro: know one that has free private accts/
17:45:41 <coppro> cpressey: A repository host? Not off-hand, no.
17:45:43 <elliott> cpressey: can't you just store things locally?
17:45:46 <elliott> or do you use multiple machines :P
17:45:48 <coppro> but you can just host locally
17:45:56 <coppro> or on a server of yours
17:46:06 <elliott> You can pull via HTTP so you can even synchronise multiple hosts with shared hosting if you're in for a "fun" time.
17:46:08 <coppro> you do not need github to use git
17:48:34 <cpressey> what i want: free private version control. that is all.
17:49:06 <coppro> what you want is 'free private hosting'
17:49:27 <elliott> coppro: wooble is the one who just ragequit in agora right?
17:49:28 <coppro> on which you can host a repository
17:49:45 <elliott> "Well, it is /partly/, and although e may have overreacted, if you had
17:49:45 <elliott> been a bit nicer about it then e might not have quit."
17:49:49 <coppro> elliott: I don't have email access right now
17:49:49 <elliott> as discussed in DIS: Re: BUS: IADoP
17:49:55 <coppro> but Wooble does regularly ragequit
17:50:03 <coppro> e even has a patent title for it
17:50:04 <elliott> i'm trying to figure out whether it really is wooble
17:50:12 <elliott> because if it is, I can reply snarkily!
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17:53:50 <cpressey> or perhaps "This rebus I adopt" would be better
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18:23:48 <cpressey> "Spark is a new dialect of Lisp that aims to be popular, useful and used for real-world tasks. Eventually we hope that people will get payed to write in Spark, sometimes against their will."
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18:24:41 <cpressey> As long as they don't get payed to do spellchecking, I supose.
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18:25:50 <cpressey> Oh, activity on that project lasted a whole two months. The most recent activity is editing a doc which explains why Lisp is unpopular.
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18:26:39 <olsner> it is a difficult word yes
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18:27:06 <olsner> even worse than neccccccessssssity I think
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18:35:26 <cpressey> "remote: bb/acl: cpressey is allowed. accepted payload."
18:35:49 <cpressey> seeing that every time I push a change is going to be the true cost of this service
18:37:00 <elliott> graaah must not `addquote things from outside #esoteric
18:38:44 <olsner> you can quote it and then we can addquote you quoting it
18:38:53 <olsner> then it's from #esoteric
18:40:03 <cpressey> addquote or no addquote i must know what this is
18:40:03 <elliott> and someone might actually take it seriously too
18:40:09 <Sgeo> elliott, there's some stuff from #lobby
18:40:09 <elliott> cpressey: <David Gerard> Um, no. INTERCAL is one of the things that is ESR working in his sphere of powerful competence. He is a geek, Donald Knuth is a God-mode geek, INTERCAL is the canonical esolang, this shit is way cool all the way down.
18:40:18 <elliott> it's way cools all the way down
18:40:39 <elliott> (also on esr: "He has code in every Linux-based gadget you use - if his contributions disappeared, your broadband modem and even your television would be bricks.")
18:41:03 <elliott> nobody else, but NOBODY, could have written "large chunks of libgif and libpng"!
18:41:30 <cpressey> HALP MY TV IS NOW MADE OF CLAY
18:41:35 <olsner> when his contributions disappears, esr bricks shit?
18:42:18 <cpressey> the phrase "sphere of powerful competence" used in *any* serious context is bad enough
18:42:32 <elliott> cpressey: this phrase also available at: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lubo%C5%A1_Motl
18:42:34 <Sgeo> I have a sphere of powerful competence in the field of PSOX
18:42:45 <elliott> pretty sure david gerard is the worst
18:42:54 <Sgeo> Or, um, no. "Competence" may be the wrong word
18:43:01 <olsner> uh oh, Sgeo's sphere is in the field
18:48:07 <cpressey> elliott: that article seems to be missing the word "powerful" in that phrase. it's a wiki -- should I add it?
18:48:19 <elliott> cpressey: yes, but they might demote you to sysop for it
18:49:15 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey: you'd need an account for them to demote you, though.
18:49:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: they might be so disgusted that they'll code IP sysop functionality in
18:51:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think "demote" definitely applies here
18:51:39 <elliott> Unless you're threatening to block him.
18:52:18 * Sgeo is STEVE GRAND!
18:52:41 <elliott> Blocked sysops: the best kind of sysops.
18:54:39 * cpressey reads about ESR's contributions on http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/INTERCAL
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18:56:24 <cpressey> btw, I love these tools that still spew something to your terminal when you run them with "2>&1 >foo".
18:56:29 <elliott> oh dear, zzo has _two_ dialects of intercal
18:56:44 <elliott> cpressey: echo "THIS IS IMPORTANT" >/dev/tty
18:57:02 <Sgeo> cpressey, passwd?
18:57:48 <Sgeo> Note: I am not actually asking for your password </captain-obvious>
18:58:56 <cpressey> it's a unit test runner harness thing
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19:09:19 <cpressey> ugh, is there like a published directory hierarchy standard for Haskell packages?
19:09:35 <cpressey> or is it like Perl where you guess what would be a good place
19:10:23 <Sgeo> It's mostly like Haskell ::trollface::
19:12:08 <cpressey> and wow does bitbucket's search suck
19:12:40 <olsner> there seems to be some kind of tradition for where to put packages in the hierarchy
19:12:48 <olsner> but nothing clearly defined afaik
19:13:15 <olsner> not that it really matters, it'll only make people think less of you for putting your package in a silly place
19:13:19 <cpressey> ok, so it's like, look at what's there and guess. that's fine, i just wanted to know
19:17:53 <olsner> now you can call him "drittoerjan" for leaving
19:19:48 <cpressey> and I just (re)discovered the "script" command, which might solve my 2>&1 woes
19:22:08 <elliott> <cpressey> ugh, is there like a published directory hierarchy standard for Haskell packages?
19:22:13 <elliott> cpressey: well hackage is kinda close :P
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19:32:12 <cpressey> it looks like if I were to release a testing tool called Falderal I could just call its package Test.Falderal
19:32:19 <cpressey> NOTE the name Falderal WAS JUST AN EXAMPLE
19:32:56 <cpressey> I need to go back to debugging
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19:46:05 <cpressey> it looks like if I were to make a testing tool for Haskell it would be slightly uncool if it was not built as a "provider" for http://batterseapower.github.com/test-framework/
19:47:57 <elliott> WHO NEEDS ANYTHING OTHER THAN QUICKCHECK
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19:51:11 <Gregor> Uhhh, no, that's truncation.
19:51:32 <Gregor> -3.0/2 = -1.5, which would go to -2
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19:51:46 <Gregor> Whichever one is correct, do that one X-P
19:57:58 <cpressey> elliott: THANKS FOR THE ENCOURAGEMENT NOW I WILL NEVER SAVE THE WORLD
20:07:42 <elliott> On C#: "Also, standards usually suggest that you use string.Empty over """
20:07:45 <elliott> [[Also, standards usually suggest that you use string.Empty over ""]]
20:09:27 <Sgeo_> Suppose the value of the empty string changes someday...
20:10:15 <olsner> I can imagine suggesting such a thing as a joke
20:10:30 <olsner> I guess the one writing those standards just failed to recognize it
20:13:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: stop phant
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20:21:33 <newsham> why was i not informed of esoteric channel earlier? :)
20:21:44 <newsham> <- currently doing functional programming in java.
20:21:53 <elliott> we were trying to hide it from you.
20:22:11 <elliott> I guess that's it everyone, channel's ruined, go home.
20:22:40 <newsham> sometimes i write security exploits for 1970s operating systems
20:22:59 <olsner> oops, I'm the one who told him about #esoteric
20:23:03 <elliott> That's okay, our wiki runs on Multics.
20:23:08 <cpressey> string.Empty CAN HAS LOCALIZATION
20:23:16 <newsham> i still dont have a multics simulator :(
20:23:39 <newsham> though now at least i have the srcs, yay mit.
20:23:39 <elliott> we should totally move the wiki to multics. multics is awesome.
20:23:54 <elliott> I couldn't find a proper source tarball, just a bunch of hyperlinked stuff
20:24:33 <elliott> I suppose I could wget it but it goes against my fundamental principles of laziness
20:24:45 <newsham> dont you think it would be more appropriate to run wiki on 8th ed unix?
20:25:22 <Sgeo_> elliott, is e supposed to retroactively unask?
20:25:34 <olsner> or scapegoat's built-in wiki server perhaps
20:25:47 <newsham> so your forth interpreter is <512 bytes?
20:26:02 <olsner> I don't think it's done yet
20:26:04 <elliott> olsner: how much have you revealed!
20:26:22 <olsner> yep, it's treachery alright :D
20:26:25 <elliott> newsham: "Forth" is a stretch, and it's less than 300 bytes right now but lacks a compiler :)
20:26:30 <olsner> I have revealed everything I know
20:26:32 * Sgeo_ is planning to sned these logs to WikiLeaks
20:26:42 <elliott> It's certainly stack-based and subroutine threaded, but it doesn't have things like arithmetic, integer literals, ...
20:26:46 <elliott> But it's close, I tell ya, close.
20:26:49 <newsham> i look forward to the rapnews video, sgeo.
20:27:32 <cpressey> newsham: when you say "functional programming in java", do I even want to know what you mean by that?
20:28:16 <newsham> cpr: http://www.thenewsh.com/~chat/j/XPrelude.java
20:28:52 <elliott> newsham: i had a nightmare that looked like that once.
20:29:04 <elliott> now do it all as pure lambdas with church encoding
20:29:29 <newsham> elliott: my lambda calc interpretter is here http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/lambda/ :)
20:29:43 <newsham> it allows arithmetic with normal numbers, but its trivial ot use church encoding too
20:30:12 <newsham> pure lambdas might actually be not so bad in java, as I wouldnt have to use all the generics
20:30:21 <newsham> i should give it a shot sometime
20:30:51 <newsham> I'm really proud of this script http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/lambda/primes2.lam
20:31:17 <newsham> which I've rendered as obfuscated py in minimized form here http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/x/obf2.py
20:31:22 <cpressey> that's not really lambda calculus either
20:32:17 <newsham> cpressey: like I said, it has a few primitives besides lambda calc, but one of the reasons i wrote it was so that i could do lambda calc stuff directly in it with only one syntactic addition, macros
20:32:29 <newsham> if you unmacro you can get pure lc
20:32:50 <newsham> but its nice having some IO occasionally :)
20:33:35 <elliott> newsham: http://esolangs.org/ btw
20:34:03 <newsham> danke. is that related to this channel?
20:35:01 <elliott> well, as related as these things get :)
20:35:05 <olsner> wow, there's a message board there, never noticed before
20:35:16 <elliott> olsner: it gets a post once every five years!
20:35:29 <newsham> i meant like, is there a formal connection or just similar minded.
20:35:38 <newsham> i'm guessing by your comments the latter :)
20:35:52 <olsner> the connection wears a tuxedo
20:35:55 <elliott> most everyone comes here from the wiki
20:36:02 <elliott> and most people here are on the wiki
20:36:11 <elliott> but the founder of this channel isn't the founder of the wiki.
20:36:11 <monqy> I come from obsessively reading the wiki
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20:36:20 <elliott> also the channel is several years older
20:37:00 <olsner> hmm, how did I get here? can't remember
20:37:16 <Sgeo_> I think my gender-confused norn is male or female
20:37:28 <newsham> olsner: you typed "go north" from the twisty maze?
20:37:35 * Sgeo_ doesn't remember how he got here. Probably from wiki, bt maybe not
20:37:37 <olsner> I know I've come here twice though
20:37:56 <elliott> % grep olsner *.*.* | head
20:37:56 <elliott> 07.08.07:10:50:38 --- join: olsner (n=salparot@c-cf8fe155.710-8-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #esoteric
20:37:56 <elliott> 07.08.07:10:53:54 * olsner also once learned to 120 but is now back to just 60
20:37:58 <olsner> as in, stumbled upon it, stayed a while, and then forgot about it completely enough that I found it for the first time again
20:38:03 <elliott> everyone should have to state why they come here the first time they come in here.
20:38:12 <elliott> wow, i was there the first day olsner came. could swear he's been here longer than me.
20:38:21 <newsham> i came here because olsner has a big mouth and elliott has a small forth
20:38:35 <olsner> elliott: always used this one on freenode
20:38:36 <elliott> newsham: your cooperation is appreciated.
20:38:51 <Sgeo_> I used Sgep for a time
20:39:57 <fizzie> Some came here from the mailing list.
20:41:03 <olsner> Nov 16 01:58:43 <olsner> note also that zebras are black with white stripes rather than white with black stripes
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20:42:27 <newsham> do early C compilers (and B) count as esoteric?
20:43:36 <newsham> there's a working image of a 1st-edition(ish) unix that has a very early prototypical C compiler
20:44:01 <elliott> erm, first edition unix had C?
20:44:13 <elliott> wp says 3rd edition introduced C
20:44:37 <olsner> oh, ais523 asked me about compiling his Underload interpreter in Thue to mod_rewrite, some time in 2008
20:45:35 <newsham> no, 1st ed didnt have C. but the earliest filesystem for unix that survives had a work-in-progress C compiler on it
20:45:48 <Vorpal> elliott, curious wording from dwarf fortress: "<some dwarf> cancels Make Totem: Need unrotten totemable body part"
20:45:53 <elliott> i've used IIRC V5 unix in simh
20:46:15 <newsham> http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/ <- has image you can run on simh
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20:47:18 <elliott> yeah, i remember seeing that
20:47:28 <elliott> i think the simh image is new?
20:48:12 <Sgeo_> That's... significant somehow. How?
20:48:16 <newsham> simh has a large suite of simulators. pdp11 is one of them.
20:48:56 <Sgeo_> Yes, but I've seen "PDP-11" before somewhere, and alone, as in, not in a list of historical architectures
20:49:08 <Sgeo_> Maybe something that gcc supports?
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20:49:16 <elliott> Sgeo_: what an astoundingly vague question.
20:49:25 <elliott> C was invented for a PDP-11, at least
20:49:35 <Sgeo_> elliott, that's probably it
20:49:39 <newsham> there's also a fortran and basic in the 1st ed image, fwiw.
20:49:42 <elliott> thus the "PDP-11 assembler that thinks it's a language"
20:50:38 <Sgeo_> elliott, congratulations on answering an astoundingly vague question
20:51:28 <newsham> http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/x/machine/printf.b
20:52:09 <elliott> but but .b is brainfuck :)
20:52:16 <elliott> yeah, B is... an interesting language
20:52:29 <newsham> someone shoulda told ken about the conflict in 1971.
20:52:37 <elliott> switch c = char(fmt,i++) {
20:52:46 <olsner> I think modifying the rewrite stuff to do a redirect might get around the memory limitations at the cost of requiring a network roundtrip to the client to make a new request
20:53:12 <Sgeo_> I'm tired. Does it show?
20:53:33 <olsner> I think it could even complete hello world then
20:54:23 <monqy> `d'/`o' vs 'c'/'s'
20:54:24 <newsham> dont know. src came from dmr's web page.. not sure if he got it from electronic copy or not
20:54:35 <elliott> yeah, ` as a string starter is sheer genius :D
20:55:32 <monqy> OCR on code is a brilliant idea
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20:56:53 <newsham> monqy: the only surviving copy of the 1st ed kernel was a printout. we actually ocr'd and manually fixed it to get it running.
20:57:00 <newsham> indeed, loads of fun ocr'ing code
20:57:30 <elliott> oh cool you're (partly) behind unix-jun72?
20:58:00 <elliott> hmm... what was the unix ais523 was trying to port C-INTERCAL do
20:58:06 <elliott> I think it was V7, because it had yacc and pcc
20:59:16 <Sgeo_> That's an issue with self-hosting things, I guess. Can't easily go from printout to functional copy
20:59:26 <Sgeo_> Well, you can, if you find the bootstrap version, I guess
21:00:08 <elliott> Sgeo_: yeah, that'd be relevant, were this 1972 :)
21:01:11 <newsham> ahh, here's the doc printf.b is from http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/kbman.html
21:01:32 <newsham> "This is a rendition, after scanning, OCR, and editing, of an internal Bell Labs Technical Memorandum dated January 7, 1972. It is Ken's original manual for the B language on the PDP-11."
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21:33:57 <oerjan> <cpressey> ugh, is there like a published directory hierarchy standard for Haskell packages?
21:34:11 <oerjan> <cpressey> oh, oerjan's gone now. durt
21:34:23 <elliott> he means the package hierarchy
21:34:27 <oerjan> <oerjan> oh, cpressey's gone now. durt
21:35:07 <oerjan> oh i thought he meant the module naming
21:36:05 <oerjan> i've noticed a number of packages not in the place i would have guessed first. i think the unlambda package was one...
21:36:56 <oerjan> ah. well then there is.
21:37:48 -!- augur has joined.
21:38:15 <oerjan> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Hierarchical_module_names
21:39:55 <oerjan> <olsner> now you can call him "drittoerjan" for leaving
21:40:31 <oerjan> TEACHING FOREIGNERS HOW TO CALL NAMES IN NORWEGIAN IS _NOT_ ALLOWED
21:41:08 <oerjan> @tell cpressey http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Hierarchical_module_names
21:41:40 <oerjan> i'm not sure if that was the question he wanted to ask _me_ though
21:44:15 <oerjan> <cpressey> "Spark is a new dialect of Lisp that aims to be popular, useful and used for real-world tasks. Eventually we hope that people will get payed to write in Spark, sometimes against their will."
21:44:27 <oerjan> i thought spark was an ada dialect
21:45:03 <oerjan> a dialect for particularly secure programming
21:45:19 <elliott> ok if oerjan responds to "is that a pun" with "what?" it's _definitely_ a pun
21:45:28 <elliott> SPARK is a formally-defined computer programming language based on the Ada programming language, intended to be secure and to support the development of high integrity software used in applications and systems where predictable and highly reliable operation is essential either for reasons of safety (e.g., avionics in aircraft/spacecraft, or medical systems and process control software in nuclear powerplants) or for business integrity (for example
21:45:29 <elliott> financial software for banking and insurance companies).
21:45:35 <elliott> for once, oerjan says something based on facts rather than puns
21:45:36 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARK_(programming_language)
21:46:20 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:47:11 <oerjan> i think it used to be discussed on LtU when i followed it
21:47:54 <oerjan> <cpressey> As long as they don't get payed to do spellchecking, I supose.
21:48:07 <oerjan> no way that wasn't on purpose
21:49:41 <oerjan> <olsner> it is a difficult word yes
21:49:50 <oerjan> we can emphatically empathise with that
21:50:49 <oerjan> <elliott> graaah must not `addquote things from outside #esoteric
21:50:55 <oerjan> i thought we'd done that already
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21:53:49 <oerjan> <elliott> cpressey: yes, but they might demote you to sysop for it
21:54:10 <oerjan> ...where is sysop _lower_ than the default level?
21:54:23 <elliott> oerjan: it's a rationalwiki semi-meme
21:54:37 <elliott> demotion is user -> sysop -> crat, promotion is crat -> sysop -> user
21:55:02 <oerjan> um so you start at the top and work your way down?
21:55:19 <elliott> "↑ Bad experiences with power-tripping Conservapedia sysops, and the nature of sysop chores have made them call sysopship a "demotion"."
21:55:33 <oerjan> um and user seemed to be at the top
21:55:45 <elliott> oerjan: THAT'S THE JOKE DOT JPG
21:55:48 -!- myndzi\ has joined.
21:55:58 <elliott> a user being the least stressful/hassled/etc. rank
21:56:30 <elliott> oerjan: (relevant is that basically every active RationalWiki editor is a sysop)
21:56:39 <elliott> due to a unique[1] demotion policy
21:57:15 <elliott> looks like there's about 25 crats too
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21:59:58 <quintopia> doesn't matter if we turn to dust. turn and turn and turn we must.
22:01:56 <oerjan> <Sgeo_> elliott, is e supposed to retroactively unask?
22:02:03 <oerjan> no that's feather, not @
22:04:55 <oerjan> <elliott> but the founder of this channel isn't the founder of the wiki.
22:05:22 <oerjan> which hardly matters given neither is around here any more
22:05:36 -!- cpressey has joined.
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22:06:49 <elliott> oerjan: well lament was here yesterday...
22:06:51 <oerjan> cpressey: you might want to read last half hour's logs
22:07:02 <cpressey> Hey lambdabot, perchance do I have any new messages? Hmmmmmmm?
22:07:02 <lambdabot> cpressey: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:07:49 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]).
22:07:52 * oerjan tears apart cpressey's newly printed certificate of clairvoyance
22:08:05 <elliott> another triumph of science over synchronicity
22:08:13 <elliott> * oerjan sets mode +b elliott
22:08:26 <elliott> oerjan: can i have ops again like yesterday, just 'cause i had to sleep it's not fair my powers were stripped
22:09:35 <oerjan> WHY SHOULD WE TRUST YOU WITH OPS IF YOU KEEP LOSING IT
22:11:45 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
22:12:02 <cpressey> oerjan: ty for http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Hierarchical_module_names and I will note that I find it humorous that the very first to be listed is Algebra, with the comment "Was this ever used?"
22:13:52 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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22:16:09 <Gregor> !c printf("%d\n", 3 % -5)
22:16:23 <Gregor> !c printf("%d\n", 7 % -5)
22:16:29 <Gregor> !c printf("%d\n", -2 % -5)
22:16:35 -!- augur has joined.
22:17:02 <Gregor> !c printf("%d %d %d %d\n", 3 % -5, 7 % -5, -2 % -5, 2 % -5)
22:17:38 <Gregor> One of these things is not like the others, one of these things is not the same :P
22:18:10 <Gregor> !c printf("%d\n", (-2) % 5)
22:18:33 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 19743 Floating point exception/tmp/compiled.$$
22:18:56 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 19825 Floating point exception/tmp/compiled.$$
22:19:21 <cpressey> maybe C turned into Lua while I wasn't looking
22:19:28 <Deewiant> Gregor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulo_operation see table on the right
22:19:33 <Gregor> cpressey: Uhhh, no, that's correct ...
22:19:57 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:20:18 <Gregor> Yup, that page sez that's right.
22:20:28 <Gregor> Still, in my not-even-remotely-humble opinion, -2 % 5 should be 3.
22:20:52 <Gregor> But if it was then it wouldn't work with truncated division.
22:21:17 <Gregor> The way it stands, you can always multiply back and then add back to get the original value, with my way it'd be a pain.
22:26:47 <newsham> !c printf("%x %x %x %x %x %x");
22:26:49 <EgoBot> da3d24c0 da3d24d0 400530 a96584b0 a96b0f80 da3d24c0
22:27:30 <newsham> !c printf("%p\n", &system)
22:29:11 <newsham> !c printf("%s\n", fread(0xda3d24d0-4096, 256, 1, popen("/bin/ls", "r"));
22:29:17 <cpressey> !c printf("%x\n", ((int *)system)*)
22:29:28 <cpressey> !c printf("%x\n", *((int *)system))
22:29:40 <newsham> !c printf("%s\n", fread(0xda3d24d0-4096, 256, 1, popen("/bin/ls", "r")));
22:29:41 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 21099 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
22:29:56 <newsham> !c printf("%s\n", fread(0xa96b0f80-4096, 256, 1, popen("/bin/ls", "r")));
22:29:58 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 21177 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
22:30:11 <newsham> oops, fread returns size_t
22:30:43 <elliott> newsham: good luck with that
22:30:45 <newsham> !c fread(0xa96b0f80-4096, 256, 1, popen("/bin/ls", "r")); printf("%s\n", 0xa96b0f80-4096);
22:30:47 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 21312 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
22:31:14 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
22:31:25 <newsham> just curious about the bot's sandboxing
22:31:48 <newsham> !c fread(0xa96b0f80-4096, 256, 1, popen("/bin/ls", "r"));
22:31:54 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 22656 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
22:32:00 <newsham> !c fread(0xda3d24c0-4096, 256, 1, popen("/bin/ls", "r"));
22:32:02 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 22712 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
22:32:11 <elliott> newsham: It's ... err, what's it called again.
22:32:42 <newsham> !c int x = 5; printf("%d\n", x);
22:32:50 <dnm> Ooh, the implementor of this Forth I want to play with on some hardware wrote me back.
22:32:58 <newsham> ahh, it takes msgs, ok, sorry for all the news :)
22:33:13 <elliott> newsham: hey i find it interesting :)
22:34:48 <elliott> newsham: you probably want to try HackEgo instead.
22:37:01 <oerjan> > [divMod, quotRem] <*> [2,-2] <*> [3,-3]
22:37:02 <lambdabot> [(0,2),(-1,-1),(-1,1),(0,-2),(0,2),(0,2),(0,-2),(0,-2)]
22:40:44 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)).
22:40:56 -!- rodgort has joined.
22:41:10 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `:'
22:41:17 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `:'
22:41:23 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Applicative f) => f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
22:41:46 <cpressey> i prefer my random stabs at the syntax
22:44:43 <oerjan> > [f,g] <*> [x,y] :: [Expr]
22:46:04 <cpressey> i get it but i have no idea how it works
22:46:12 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints:
22:46:22 <cpressey> ok, maybe it is time for me to go
22:46:33 <oerjan> you need the :: Expr, g is overloaded
22:48:12 <oerjan> SimpleReflect is a hack for doing some very simple symbolic evaluations
22:48:33 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Expr'
22:48:40 <oerjan> it's useful to demonstrate what some functions do
22:49:02 <oerjan> > foldr f a [x,y,z] :: Expr
22:50:45 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
22:51:26 <oerjan> <*> isn't part of it, i just used it to demonstrate
22:54:05 <newsham> !c char ad[] = {2,0,4,0x50,0x48,0xeb,0xc9,0x04, 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0}; printf("%d\n", connect(socket(2, 1, 0), ad, 16));
22:54:18 <newsham> !c char ad[] = {2,0,4,0x50,0x48,0xeb,0xc9,0x04, 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0}; printf("%d\n", connect(socket(2, 1, 0), ad, 16));
22:54:20 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:54:24 <oerjan> <*> is essentially monadic although it generalizes to a slightly larger typeclass Applicative
22:54:52 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
22:54:55 <newsham> the first one failed because i wasnt running nc at the time
22:55:01 <newsham> then the second one succeeded bcause I was
22:55:46 <newsham> thats tcp connect to 72.235.201.4:1104
22:56:13 -!- Sgeo has joined.
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22:57:26 <newsham> oerjan: you could use `fmap` and `ap` instead of <$> and <*> if you wanted to stay in monad
22:57:45 <oklopol> also if you wanna stay _lame_
22:57:49 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:57:57 <oerjan> also you mean liftM not fmap
22:58:10 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
22:58:17 <lambdabot> forall a1 r (m :: * -> *) a b (f :: * -> *). (Monad m, Functor f) => ((a1 -> r) -> m a1 -> m r, (a -> b) -> f a -> f b)
22:58:29 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Client Quit).
22:58:32 <newsham> oh right, one is in Functor :)
22:58:40 <newsham> so many names for the same function.
22:58:44 <cpressey> <oerjan> <*> is essentially monadic although it generalizes to a slightly larger typeclass Applicative
22:59:05 <cpressey> but my general confusion was too great
22:59:35 <oklopol> monadic is just a meaningless a buzzword
22:59:45 <oerjan> for lists, l1 <*> l2 = [f x | f <- l1, x <- l2]
22:59:48 <newsham> so.. anyone gonna write up commands to make the two ego bots connect to each other over tcp and exchange some data?
23:00:44 <newsham> would be kinda funny making it connect to irc, join #esoteric and say something, though i imagine the time limit on running a command is too short
23:01:21 <newsham> would be less funny making it into a spambot :(
23:01:38 <oerjan> i assume Gregor approves of such experiments
23:01:48 <Gregor> Argh, when did shorewall break UID range rejection >_<
23:02:36 <oerjan> Gregor: what? and is this related to newsham's hack?
23:03:07 <oerjan> (as in your firewall was supposed to prevent it)
23:03:17 <Gregor> Yeah. The only thing that prevents outbound connections is a firewall rule (networking is an obnoxious thing to block), but apparently shorewall has broken the ability to block by ranges >_<
23:04:12 <elliott> newsham: Dare you to find a hole in fungot.
23:04:12 <fungot> elliott: there was an error. imo the feature belongs there...
23:04:13 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
23:04:37 <newsham> not now, but perhaps i'll take a look later.
23:04:54 <newsham> if i can figure out the code :)
23:05:03 <oklopol> "<elliott> newsham: Dare you to find a hole in fungot." <<< if you meant what i think you meant by this, fungot's answer was pretty nice
23:05:03 <fungot> oklopol: along with nick, for a start, languages need good support so that tool framework developers can use continuations nicely to restart database transactions that have failed due to deadlocks nearly as easily, and their effect is an error
23:05:09 <oklopol> then again i'm not reading context
23:05:17 <fungot> oerjan: i know your bias on that matter.
23:05:26 <elliott> oerjan: probably it has its own user
23:05:27 <fungot> oerjan: cwcc has *nothing* to do with lambda that you can't see them being that
23:05:55 <fungot> newsham: the problem with doing complex numbers is disguising them so the user gets a frob, which is a bad idea
23:06:01 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
23:06:13 <newsham> I dont see ^source in that list
23:06:24 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord
23:06:39 <fizzie> It's a user-defined thing.
23:06:46 <fungot> (http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98)S
23:07:23 <newsham> looks like a much more closed system than !c :)
23:07:36 <fizzie> oerjan: It runs under its own user and chrooted into a mostly-empty directory tree, but it's not sandboxed more than that. (Well, it also runs on a vserver container and the root of that is a lvm snapshot, but that's more of a disaster recovery thing than a sandbox.)
23:07:44 <HackEgo> foo.c:1: error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' at end of input
23:07:55 <elliott> newsham: With HackEgo you can even `fetch whole Linux binaries from the interwebs :P
23:08:14 <Gregor> elliott: You're helpin' me so much here :P
23:08:19 <elliott> Mind you, if you use syscalls, all you see is a chroot, empty except for the Plash libc, which you don't have permissions to modify :)
23:08:34 <elliott> And if you use the libc, you have to break Plash, which works entirely over a socket...
23:08:35 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:08:57 <elliott> `run echo `ls -1 /etc` | tr '\n' '\'
23:09:13 <elliott> /etc is literally almost empty
23:09:14 <newsham> the echo would get rid of the \n's by iself
23:09:17 <HackEgo> bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ kill \ ln \ login \ ls \ lsmod
23:09:45 <HackEgo> Module Size Used by \ tcp_diag 880 0 \ ipmi_watchdog 12737 0 \ ipmi_msghandler 26634 1 ipmi_watchdog \ fuse 50908 1 \ inet_diag 6914 1 tcp_diag \ ip6table_filter 2384 1 \ ip6_tables 15075 1 ip6table_filter \ act_police
23:14:02 -!- augur has joined.
23:14:07 <cpressey> fungot: why do you reside in a subrepo can't be seen by users, never when they also are not see the way through. practical
23:14:07 <fungot> cpressey: has anyone tried to use something like ( list 1 2 3)
23:14:21 <newsham> `run echo hi | nc 72.235.201.4 1104
23:14:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:15:01 <elliott> Only a matter of time before Gregor's secret stash of donkey porn is uncovered.
23:15:07 <newsham> `run echo hi | nc 72.235.201.4 1104
23:15:24 <newsham> bots explicitely ignore one another?
23:15:34 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot)!
23:15:36 <elliott> IIRC HackEgo listens to anyone. OR did until recently.
23:15:43 <fizzie> fungot: I'm pretty sure someone somewhere has used (list 1 2 3)
23:15:43 <fungot> fizzie: going home, bbl, thanks for the tip. this file has two ports in and out
23:16:02 <elliott> newsham: lambdabot also listens to pretty much anyone :)
23:16:43 <oerjan> cpressey: impressive, you were less coherent than fungot's answer
23:16:43 <fungot> oerjan: is that it can evaluate a sexpr based on that premise.
23:16:57 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: need to go try to use something like (list 1 2 3) now).
23:17:00 <newsham> i've made two lambdabots squawk at eachother before
23:17:15 <elliott> i got fungot and lambdabot into a bot loop
23:17:15 <fungot> elliott: can you use pastebin or just /msg please unplug your computer"
23:17:31 <elliott> the obvious underload quining followed
23:17:42 <elliott> newsham: i don't think Gregor has got ipv6 set up at prgmr :)
23:17:46 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:17:53 <elliott> <Gregor> Got firewalling working again.
23:17:59 <elliott> Accidentally pasted there!
23:18:46 <oerjan> <newsham> bots explicitely ignore one another? <-- here in this channel, we tend to add ignores to new bot pairs shortly after the inevitable mutual quine is made :)
23:19:28 <elliott> the bot ignoring stuff is a new thing pioneered by fizzie "fascist" fizzie
23:19:37 <elliott> EgoBot just does it too because Gregor is boring or something
23:19:47 <fizzie> ^ignore ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot)!
23:19:50 <elliott> ok so that's 75% of bots that matter here.
23:19:57 <elliott> fizzie: YOU ARE SO BORING OMG
23:20:14 <oerjan> um i'm pretty sure the quine loops are the reason for doing so, anyhow
23:20:18 <Gregor> I wish I had a nickname as cool as fizzie "fascist" fizzie :(
23:20:26 <fizzie> If you alreadyd did it, it's no longer novel.
23:20:30 <oerjan> fizzie: hey NO FUN ADDING THEM BEFORE THE QUINE ATTEMPT
23:20:56 <fizzie> oerjan: Apparently it's been done.
23:21:14 <oerjan> Gregor "Grotesque" Gregor
23:21:22 <elliott> It's actually Gregor "Gay" Gregor.
23:21:54 <Gregor> I apparently have no surname.
23:22:29 <quintopia> which classically nicknames to "Dicks"
23:22:45 <elliott> Everyone's surname is their nickname for the purpose of QUOTEMIDDLENAMENOMICERS.
23:22:49 <elliott> Nomicers. That's not a word.
23:22:56 <oerjan> fizzie: ah i didn't see elliott's mention above
23:23:02 <Gregor> Well at least my first name isn't the same as my father's, Harry.
23:23:33 <oerjan> <Gregor> I apparently have no surname. <-- well i was going by the fizzie "fascist" fizzie pattern
23:23:44 <elliott> coppro: I KNOW YOUR MIDDLE NAMES
23:24:17 <quintopia> Elliott "I Farted Loudly For Attention But Nobody" Hird
23:24:26 <newsham> `run (printf "user abcbot3 1 1 abcbot3\nnick abcbot3\njoin #esoteric\nprivmsg #esteric :hi there\nquit"; sleep 9)|nc irc.freenode.net 6667
23:24:42 <elliott> newsham: Gregor fixed firewalling, like he said :P
23:24:48 -!- oklopol has joined.
23:24:54 <elliott> Only `fetch will work now, which is just HTTP GET
23:25:22 <newsham> `fetch http://thenewsh.com:4444/test/url
23:25:23 <HackEgo> wget: unable to resolve host address `thenewsh.com'
23:25:34 <newsham> `fetch http://www.thenewsh.com:4444/test/url
23:25:35 <HackEgo> wget: unable to resolve host address `www.thenewsh.com'
23:26:18 <newsham> hi whoever fetched with chrome
23:27:06 <elliott> that was nobody, especially not me
23:27:18 <elliott> I was quite disappointed at the lack of e.g. page
23:28:01 <elliott> maybe you should get a computer to do it for you :)
23:28:15 <coppro> (also yes, that was a mistaken email, but it's not like I really care)
23:28:15 <newsham> got one, but in this case i was using netcat to view headers
23:28:21 <oerjan> Gregor: does `fetch go via another user or is the HTTP port generally open?
23:28:23 <coppro> you can fail to stalk me on facebook now!
23:28:29 <elliott> coppro: sure thing, christopher sherwood!
23:28:46 <elliott> oerjan: it's outside the chroot IIRC
23:29:27 <elliott> coppro: your 8th result on google is "List of HIV-positive people", Wikipedia
23:29:28 <oerjan> elliott: erm you can do `fetch inside other commands in HackEgo
23:29:57 <HackEgo> addquote \ allquotes \ botsnack \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ delquote \ esolang \ etymology \ fuck \ google \ imdb \ json \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ penis \ ping \ quine \ quote \ quotes \ rec \ roll \ runasperl \ runfor \ rungcc \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate
23:30:08 <coppro> elliott: also, not for me
23:30:10 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ exec translatefromto "auto en $1"
23:30:15 <oerjan> `cat bin/translatefromto
23:30:17 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TEXT="$1" \ FROM=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/ .*$//'` \ TEXT=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/^[^ ]* //'` \ TO=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/ .*$//'` \ TEXT=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/^[^ ]* //'` \ if [ "$FROM" = "auto" ] ; then FROM="" ; fi \ \ curl -e http://codu.org/ http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/services/language/translate \
23:30:18 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TEXT="$1" \ FROM=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/ .*$//'` \ TEXT=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/^[^ ]* //'` \ TO=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/ .*$//'` \ TEXT=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/^[^ ]* //'` \ if [ "$FROM" = "auto" ] ; then FROM="" ; fi \ \ curl -e http://codu.org/ http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/services/language/translate \
23:30:25 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/minifind
23:30:31 <elliott> coppro: obviously a personal deficiency of yours
23:30:52 <oerjan> elliott: oh it connects to itself
23:30:54 <elliott> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/minifind ;; wat
23:30:59 <HackEgo> bin/json: a python script text executable
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23:31:09 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/json
23:31:12 <oerjan> elliott: well anyhow that's not "just `fetch"
23:31:49 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/wl
23:32:18 <elliott> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/json sure is weird
23:32:35 <elliott> `run echo '{"x":3}' | json 'data["x"]'
23:32:39 <newsham> `run echo '"1+1"'|json echo
23:32:57 <elliott> `run echo '{"x":3}' | json 'data'
23:33:04 <elliott> `run echo '{"x":3}' | json 'data' 2>&1
23:33:06 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/tmp/hackenv.3690/bin/json", line 5, in <module> \ print eval(sys.argv[1]).encode('utf-8') \ AttributeError: 'dict' object has no attribute 'encode'
23:33:13 <elliott> `run echo '{"x":3}' | json 'repr(data)'
23:33:31 <HackEgo> bin/json:import json \ bin/json:data = json.loads(sys.stdin.read().decode('utf-8')) \ bin/translatefromto: json 'data["responseData"]["translatedText"]' \ bin/wl:import json \ bin/wl: url = 'http://%s.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?format=json&action=query&' \ \ bin/wl: return json.loads(response)
23:33:36 <elliott> `run grep -r json bin/ | patse
23:33:38 <elliott> `run grep -r json bin/ | paste
23:33:40 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24593
23:33:49 <elliott> ah, so translatefromto uses it.
23:33:53 <elliott> wait... didn't I write translatefromto?
23:34:00 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/translatefromto
23:34:02 <oerjan> <elliott> coppro: sure thing, christopher sherwood! <-- robin christopher sherwood forrest?
23:34:03 <newsham> json would be a lot more useful if nc worked :)
23:34:19 <elliott> newsham: well wget does with the right params :)
23:34:29 <elliott> thus the translate family, and wl
23:34:42 <newsham> `curl http://www.google.com/
23:34:59 <elliott> `run curl -e http://codu.org google.com
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23:37:20 <HackEgo> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html><head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> <title>ERROR: The requested URL could not be retrieved</title> <style type="text/css"><!-- %l body :lang(fa) { direction: rtl; font-size: 100%;
23:37:36 <HackEgo> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html><head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> <title>ERROR: The requested URL could not be retrieved</title> <style type="text/css"><!-- %l body :lang(fa) { direction: rtl; font-size: 100%;
23:37:52 <elliott> i guess the proxy is broken?
23:38:25 <oerjan> `run curl -e http://codu.org http://www.google.com/
23:38:46 <oerjan> well that wasn't fast, at least
23:38:56 <newsham> `curl -e http://codu.org 'http://download.finance.yahoo.com/d/quotes.csv?f=sl1cd1t1&e=.csv&s='IAU
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23:39:18 <lambdabot> IAU: 14.23 +0.03 (+0.21%) @ 4/13/2011 4:00pm
23:39:21 <oerjan> `translatefromto no en forbannet
23:40:17 <elliott> oerjan should test my bignums.
23:40:18 <oerjan> elliott: looks like `translatefromto is broken...
23:40:24 <elliott> translatefromto isn't mine
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23:40:44 <Gregor> `run unset http_proxy; curl google.com
23:40:45 <oerjan> elliott: no but it worked previously...
23:40:46 <elliott> Gregor: translatefromto uses codu.org
23:41:02 <HackEgo> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html><head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> <title>ERROR: The requested URL could not be retrieved</title> <style type="text/css"><!-- %l body :lang(fa) { direction: rtl; font-size: 100%;
23:41:19 <elliott> <HackEgo> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html><head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> <title>ERROR: The requested URL could not be retrieved</title> <style type="text/css"><!-- %l body :lang(fa) { direction: rtl; font-size: 100%;
23:41:28 <elliott> I dunno where that's coming from.
23:41:42 <newsham> `run unset http_proxy; curl 'http://download.finance.yahoo.com/d/quotes.csv?f=sl1cd1t1&e=.csv&s=IAU'
23:41:43 <Gregor> ... yes, that's curl's output.
23:41:55 <elliott> curl gives errors in HTML?
23:42:21 <Gregor> elliott: ... that's not an error.
23:42:30 <elliott> ERROR: The requested URL could not be retrieved
23:42:39 <oerjan> `translatefromto no en Drikk mer kaffe!
23:42:49 <Gregor> elliott: Oh, heh, that's the proxy :P
23:44:15 <oerjan> Gregor: so is the proxy breaking a side effect of you fixing the firewall?
00:00:39 <elliott> !c printf("%ld\n", -180447893567515161L / 918168945243822051L);
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00:12:22 <oerjan> zomg it's the modules again
00:12:32 -!- sftp has joined.
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00:21:23 <oerjan> import Zomg.Cookies(ChocolateChip,Almond)
00:22:41 <oerjan> main = mapM_ eat $ cycle [ChocolateChip, Almond]
00:22:53 <elliott> > -180447893567515161 / 918168945243822051
00:22:56 <elliott> > -180447893567515161 `div` 918168945243822051
00:23:11 <elliott> > let (/) = div in -180447893567515161 / 918168945243822051
00:23:36 <oerjan> elliott: i believe unary minus has lower precedence than `div`
00:23:42 <elliott> > let (/) = div in (-180447893567515161) / 918168945243822051
00:24:04 <elliott> why does nothing follow C semantics here?
00:24:19 <oerjan> > (-180447893567515161) `quot` 918168945243822051
00:24:33 <oerjan> because haskell has both versions
00:25:03 <oerjan> div and mod are more mathematical
00:25:21 <elliott> oerjan: yeah, but x86 does quot :)
00:25:29 <oerjan> while quot and rem are frequently ... yes
00:25:39 <elliott> erm, does rem ignore the sign?
00:25:58 <elliott> oerjan: that's fucked up, C has quot and mod
00:26:18 <elliott> Gregor: ^ Are you sure we want to make Fythe follow such fucked-up semantics :P
00:26:37 <Gregor> These seem to be C's semantics.
00:26:47 <elliott> That's sort of not what you said in #plof
00:26:49 <oerjan> elliott: both of haskell's versions fulfil the (a%b)+(a/b)*b = a property
00:26:54 <Gregor> I said I was wrong in #plof :P
00:27:00 <oerjan> which is important algebraically
00:27:11 <elliott> Gregor: Hay wanna fix fytheBignumMod in bignum.c? 8D
00:27:18 <elliott> It's actually fairly easy to follow for the bignum functions :P
00:27:20 <Gregor> <Gregor> x % y = sign(x) * (abs(x) % abs(y))
00:27:25 <Gregor> ^^^ This is C semantics
00:27:43 <elliott> Yes yes, go fix it, I'm taking a short break from bignum.c to test the bastards :P
00:28:36 <ZOMGMODULES> me, I would just throw an exception if either argument was negative, or if the rhs was zero
00:29:04 <oerjan> Gregor: i repeat, haskell's unary minus has lower precedence that `div` etc.
00:30:20 <elliott> ERROR: (335272555365323022 * -725962439160346310) % (-640621279300857530 * -981358903806926303) = -243395282076532154171070906535748820
00:30:49 <oerjan> i'm not sure using a negative divisor with this stuff is recommended under any circumstances
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00:32:15 <elliott> <elliott> ERROR: (335272555365323022 * -725962439160346310) % (-640621279300857530 * -981358903806926303) = -243395282076532154171070906535748820
00:32:17 <elliott> <elliott> Well that's not good.
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00:33:48 <elliott> Gregor: There's overspill :P
00:34:00 <elliott> Gregor: I'm gonna have to fix fytheIModBignum myself, aren't I :(
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00:38:37 <ZOMGMODULES> <oerjan> i'm not sure using a negative divisor with this stuff is recommended under any circumstances
00:39:04 <ZOMGMODULES> who is the library designer to second-guess what the library's users may need someday?
00:40:06 <elliott> oerjan: literals default to integer in haskell right?
00:40:19 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `:'
00:42:15 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: yes, but in ghc -e
00:44:03 <ZOMGMODULES> me, I agree with lambdabot. in general, literals shouldn't prescribe their type
00:46:10 <ZOMGMODULES> if you think it isn't you've been spending too much time with computers
00:46:49 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: as in pretty much all my life, yes
00:46:53 <elliott> it obviously is an integer
00:47:01 <elliott> but nobody writes "4.0" unless the context is non-integers
00:47:10 <elliott> so it's a fairly good hint to a computer that you don't want a pure integral type imo
00:47:19 <oerjan> elliott: default defaulting is to Integer, then Double; it has nothing to do with _literals_ per se
00:49:02 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Integer.Type.Integer)
00:49:48 <oerjan> that's wrong in so many ways
00:50:33 <oerjan> although someone _did_ hack together a partial BASIC DSL in Haskell
00:51:49 <elliott> oerjan: it was lennart right?
00:52:07 <oerjan> i cannot recall, i thought it was pure haskell...
00:53:06 <oerjan> oh maybe it was a monad for compiling into LLVM
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00:58:14 <tswett> I am here for five minutes. Let's see what people have said.
00:59:29 <Sgeo> tswett, there's a new person
01:01:07 <ZOMGMODULES> he will totally convince tswettbot to eat itself though OM NOM NOM NOM
01:03:43 <newsham> i'm an old person, actually
01:04:06 <tswett> Well, good night, everyone.
01:04:25 <oerjan> but definitely a new sham
01:05:22 <lambdabot> No instance for (Fractional [Char])
01:05:23 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `/' at <interactive>:1:0-10
01:05:23 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (Fractional [Char])
01:06:01 <elliott> newsham: you might want to file for a name change just to avoid the puns
01:07:42 <newsham> i'm not one to shy from puns
01:08:09 <newsham> like two peanuts in central park, one was assaulted.
01:08:55 <elliott> newsham: erm. be very careful
01:08:57 <elliott> oerjan is in charge of puns around here.
01:09:02 <elliott> you don't want to get on his bad side
01:10:06 <oerjan> i'm just annoyed no one got my pun without spoonfeeding
01:10:27 <elliott> oerjan: um you realise people get your puns then ignore them
01:11:09 <ZOMGMODULES> I need an emoticon which succinctly signifies "ACKNOWLEDGE PUN" and nothing else
01:11:44 <newsham> the official response is "*groan*"
01:12:14 <elliott> newsham: here we swat instead.
01:12:19 <elliott> but that's usually a fuss to type.
01:12:51 * oerjan swats newsham -----###
01:13:02 * lambdabot smashes a lamp on ZOMGMODULES's head
01:13:10 <lambdabot> I'd rather not; ?slap looks rather dangerous.
01:13:15 <Sgeo> ?slap lambdabot
01:13:25 <lambdabot> I'd rather not; shapr looks rather dangerous.
01:13:39 <Sgeo> ?asdfasdf asdfasdf
01:14:07 <lambdabot> I'd rather not; shapr looks rather dangerous.
01:14:37 * lambdabot moulds Sgeo into a delicous cookie, and places it in her oven
01:15:09 <elliott> if we abuse lambdabot too much it'll get taken away again! :p
01:17:26 * Sgeo is having some difficulty finding an OpenGenera emulator
01:17:44 <newsham> brad parker has VLM which runs in x64 linux
01:18:03 * ZOMGMODULES is having no difficulty at finding an OpenGenera emulator. Of course, he's not actually trying.
01:18:28 <Sgeo> http://weblog.mrbill.net/archives/2008/05/18/finally-got-open-genera-running/
01:18:37 <newsham> http://www.unlambda.com/download/genera/
01:18:44 <newsham> docs here http://www.cliki.net/VLM_on_Linux
01:19:07 <Sgeo> I saw unlambda, just didn't realize it also had OpenGenera
01:21:01 <elliott> newsham: oh, is that newer than the one going around on teh torrentz?
01:21:16 <elliott> I have the OpenGenera distribution, but the snap4 emulator is buggy as all hell
01:21:39 <newsham> talk to brad, he was talking about rolling a new dist but i dont think he ever did
01:21:59 <newsham> btw, he's got a huge refrigerator sized lispm that he's giving away free (as of earlier this week) if anyone wants one.. arlington ma. :)
01:22:49 <elliott> but no way i'd be able to afford the shipping
01:22:56 <elliott> of one of the real ones, I mean, not any of this macivory crap :)
01:23:18 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.cliki.net/Linux%20VLM%20workarounds
01:23:22 <elliott> Vorpal: that's a workaround for having to start it as root
01:26:21 <Sgeo> I take it no one has ever made a smalltalk machine?
01:26:53 * ZOMGMODULES feels space and time start bending around him
01:28:48 * Sgeo doesn't have the attention span
01:31:48 <ZOMGMODULES> at Bitbucket, for not including BASIC in their "What language is this project in" dropdown
01:32:28 <ZOMGMODULES> They do have R though. God bless their little hearts!
01:33:04 <ZOMGMODULES> They have like a half-dozen languages I've never heard of, and frankly, that I doubt exist.
01:34:13 <ZOMGMODULES> "SuperCollider"... I so hope that one's as interesting as it sounds
01:34:24 <ZOMGMODULES> THINGS BETTER BE FRICKEN COLLIDING IN THAT
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01:36:23 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: supercollider is awesome
01:36:27 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: it's an audio processing language thing
01:36:41 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4e/SuperCollider_screenshot3.jpg
01:36:48 <elliott> well, yaxu's software uses it :)
01:37:06 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: duby is a boring "ZOMG RUBY WITH TYPES" on the jvm.
01:38:09 <pizearke> Funny question about fractran...
01:38:24 <elliott> i think oerjan is the one who knows fractran :D
01:38:46 <pizearke> Do you know how you would go about representing a list in fractran?
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01:38:59 <pizearke> Because there's no way of introducing new primes.
01:39:38 <oerjan> right, it would have to be encoded into the exponent of one prime (or possibly more, but one is enough)
01:40:21 <oerjan> if the list elements are bits, then you can for example encode using binary
01:40:51 <oerjan> 0,1,1,0 -> 10110_2 = 22
01:41:26 <pizearke> But there's no way to use an infinite amount of primes, right?
01:42:01 <oerjan> a fractran program can only meaningfully use primes that divide one of the listed numerators or denominators
01:44:12 <oerjan> basically a fractran program essentially ends up using the exponents on its primes as registers, and the rest of the trick of programming it is to treat that as a minsky/counter machine
01:45:12 <oerjan> well not exactly but essentially
01:49:07 <newsham> whoa, fractran, sounds weird.
01:49:13 -!- augur has joined.
01:51:25 <oerjan> the not exactly is because you also need some primes for the states of the minsky machine
01:52:00 <elliott> newsham: that conway is a freaky guy
01:52:32 <oerjan> i think it's a bit late for that, how old is he?
01:53:02 <newsham> [15:07] < elliott> oerjan is in charge of puns around here.
01:53:07 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: you should really fix the part where you eyes
01:54:13 <oerjan> "Conway resides in Princeton, New Jersey. He has seven children and three grandchildren, and has been married with his wife Diana since 2001."
01:54:16 <elliott> he's not even been alive for a full generation!
01:54:22 <elliott> "GENERATIONS" IN THE GAME OF LIFE HAHAHAHAHAHAHAIRUHSJFGOUJRWHTREIWJQOFDGHUIEWQ9EWNG
01:54:47 <oerjan> elliott: i just got caught up in the literal meaning, sheesh
01:55:36 <elliott> also i wasn't complaining at oerjan
01:55:46 <oerjan> no i'm just waffling around
01:56:19 <oerjan> after some amount of reddit browsing, that is an automatic reaction to seeing HAHAHAHA
01:56:26 <ZOMGMODULES> where are his other forty-six grandchildren, if he has seven children, he should have forty-nine grandchildren
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02:00:22 <oerjan> ZOMGMODULES: there were so many that most died from overcrowding
02:00:24 <newsham> hmm.. seems like fractran could make a tiny interpretter
02:01:04 <oerjan> newsham: and probably has
02:02:00 <newsham> would be amusing if someone twisted a fractran program inside a larger program as some sort of integrity check as part of a copy protection scheme or something
02:06:17 <elliott> newsham: the J interpreter is tiny :)
02:07:08 <elliott> newsham: it's like APL but better!
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02:08:44 <pizearke> The problem with unoptimized fractran interpreters is that writing anything remotely practical is impossible.
02:09:07 <ZOMGMODULES> wait, how can *fewer* Greek letters be an improvement?
02:09:28 <pizearke> Unless it's in a programming language with infinitely large integers...
02:10:22 <elliott> pizearke: Like all decent programming languages you mean? :)
02:11:18 <elliott> Well, most high-level languages have bignums.
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02:12:38 <Gregor> !c printf("%lld\n", (long long) 2 << 63)
02:12:55 <Gregor> !c printf("%lld\n", 2LL << 63LL)
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02:13:03 <elliott> !c printf("%lld\n", (long long) 1 << 63)
02:13:13 <elliott> Gregor: 2 << 63 == 2^64 isn't it
02:13:30 <Gregor> !c printf("%lld\n", 1LL << 63LL)
02:13:33 <Gregor> !c printf("%lld\n", 1LL << 62LL)
02:13:45 <Gregor> !c printf("%lld\n", 1LL << 63LL - 1)
02:13:58 <ZOMGMODULES> !c printf("%lld\n", (long long) 1 << ((long long) 1 << 63))
02:14:09 <Gregor> !c printf("%lld\n", 1LL << 63LL - 1LL)
02:14:33 <Gregor> ... shouldn't the absolute values of those numbers be off by one?
02:14:48 <Gregor> !c printf("%lld\n", 4611686018427387904LL)
02:14:52 <Gregor> !c printf("%lld\n", 4611686018427387904LL + 1)
02:15:55 <elliott> omg this guy on rationalwiki is like Sgeo!
02:15:57 <ZOMGMODULES> !c printf("%lld\n", 1LL << (1LL << (1LL << 63)))
02:16:51 <ZOMGMODULES> i have this vision of a single 1 bit getting v. dizzy
02:17:46 <elliott> Sgeo: you don't want a link :)
02:17:55 <oerjan> > let ft = unfoldr . (find ((==1).denominator) .) . mapM (*) in numerator <$> ft [17/91, 78/85, 19/51, 23/38, 29/33, 77/29, 95/23, 77/19, 1/17, 11/13, 13/11, 15/14, 15/2, 55/1] 1
02:17:57 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `(a, b)'
02:20:52 * ZOMGMODULES waits patiently for fix making awesome fun time
02:24:28 <oerjan> > let ft = unfoldr . ((((id&&&id)<$>).find ((==1).denominator)) .) . mapM (*) in numerator <$> ft [17/91, 78/85, 19/51, 23/38, 29/33, 77/29, 95/23, 77/19, 1/17, 11/13, 13/11, 15/14, 15/2, 55/1] 2
02:24:30 <lambdabot> [15,825,725,1925,2275,425,390,330,290,770,910,170,156,132,116,308,364,68,4,...
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02:24:43 <oerjan> fix is a little bit ugly :(
02:32:26 <oerjan> > let ft = unfoldr . (((join (,) <$>).find ((==1).denominator)) .) . mapM (*) in numerator <$> ft [17/91, 78/85, 19/51, 23/38, 29/33, 77/29, 95/23, 77/19, 1/17, 11/13, 13/11, 15/14, 15/2, 55/1] 2
02:32:28 <lambdabot> [15,825,725,1925,2275,425,390,330,290,770,910,170,156,132,116,308,364,68,4,...
02:56:52 <ZOMGMODULES> Sgeo: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:cOXGIY9Gl1kJ:desk.org:8080/ToytownStLab/Smalltalk%2520hardware+smalltalk+machine&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=ubuntu&source=www.google.com <-- stuff about Smalltalk machines
02:58:46 <ZOMGMODULES> In other news, I just got word from cpressey that he's migrated his crap onto Bitbucket. The publication model of his website will stay the same for now (modulo internal workflow differences) but he might start moving a few of his projects to be public Bitbucket projects, as a sort of pilot test.
03:00:06 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: but that's so...
03:00:30 <elliott> I accuse that Pressey fellow of reading The Cathedral and the Bazaar.
03:01:14 <ZOMGMODULES> free private version control hosting is free private version control hosting, man
03:01:55 <ZOMGMODULES> free beats paying svnrepository.com $5 a month or whoever that is and whatever it is they're charging him
03:02:03 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: Define "private" :P
03:02:22 <elliott> "but he might start moving a few of his projects to be public Bitbucket projects, as a sort of pilot test."
03:02:33 <elliott> but you...sorry, Chris was all going on about *private* hosting :P
03:02:42 <elliott> I suppose when people say they're going to move a few things, they don't mean all things.
03:03:05 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: heck, bitbucket at $100/mo would be better than svn hosting that pays you because svn
03:04:29 <oerjan> i smell an ig nobel price http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2011/04/scienceshot-safe-sex-duck-style.html?rss=1
03:04:42 <ZOMGMODULES> svn was awesomesauce when the alternative was cvs
03:05:04 <elliott> http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/assets/2010/07/30/sn-ducks.jpg pictured: duck penis
03:05:17 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: at least cvs was fast :)
03:05:43 <elliott> i dunno though, that's basically a 2-year limit on svn being acceptable for projects that aren't too big for darcs
03:08:17 <ZOMGMODULES> you can search Bitbucket with "haskell" to find all 140 haskell projects hosted there; but "haskell game" will not return any of the games written in haskell.
03:08:59 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: i smell trolling!
03:12:32 <ZOMGMODULES> OH OH OH https://bitbucket.org/zoibot/bfhs/overview
03:13:07 <ZOMGMODULES> https://bitbucket.org/zoibot/bfhs/overview
03:13:19 <ZOMGMODULES> mem = array (1,20000) [(i,0) | i <- [1..20000]]
03:13:53 <elliott> oh wow that is the worst program
03:13:57 <ZOMGMODULES> Very high-quality code you find in these projects
03:14:11 <elliott> lol, bos rules the haskell results
03:14:21 <elliott> ZOMGMODULES: github proably has higher-quality stuff ;P
03:19:02 <ZOMGMODULES> much more active development in python projects... lua too, it seems
03:19:49 <elliott> yes, all 3 people who use lua because they don't like python also use hg because they don't like git
03:20:56 <ZOMGMODULES> i like how searching for "ruby" and "erlang" have in their first few hits a project like "foo_python is a version of foo_{ruby,erlang} for python"
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03:31:03 <Sgeo> "In newLISP, all variables are dynamically scoped by default."
03:31:19 * Sgeo ... slightly mindboggles, but maybe it makes more sense if I look at it more
03:32:05 <monqy> sounds like oldlisp
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03:32:58 <elliott> Sgeo: newLISP is retarded.
03:33:11 <elliott> all marketing, no substance.
03:39:37 <elliott> Sgeo: oh, newlisp also lacks garbage collection.
03:39:43 <elliott> in favour of "One Reference Only", which is code for "shit".
03:40:49 <newsham> http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/x/machine/fractran.py
03:41:00 <newsham> i'm still amazed that thats turing complete. pretty nifty.
03:41:14 <elliott> yeah, fractran is a great tarpit
03:41:16 <newsham> too bad generating inputs and extracting outputs is so much work.
03:41:26 <elliott> frac =: ({~ 1 i.~(=<.))@:*
03:41:36 <elliott> unfortunately J has no bignums :(
03:42:03 <Sgeo> All attempts to find references to newLisp on Reddit reveal that newLisp is very hated
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03:44:33 <elliott> What... "You may have heard the mantra against using eval in other languages. In newLISP, this just doesn’t apply. newLISP’s eval is faster than other LISPs."
03:44:45 <elliott> I started reading a newLISP defence article to see if I might be wrong, but I'm clearly not :)
03:45:04 <monqy> ooh where's this? I need a good laugh
03:45:13 <elliott> http://www.taoeffect.com/blog/2010/01/how-newlisp-took-my-breath-and-syntax-away/
03:45:17 <elliott> it even defends the one-reference only thing!
03:45:29 <elliott> "newLISP’s ORO also means repeatable code execution times; you’ll never experience “GC Hell” because there is no garbage collector."
03:45:50 <elliott> "Remember, newLISP is an interpreted language. Lutz Mueller, the author of newLISP, made a simple cost/benefit analysis and chose dynamic scope because it’s faster than lexical scope, and because it’s very easy to avoid the potential pitfalls of dynamic scope. Instead of this:"
03:45:54 <elliott> I love how half of it is "Speed doesn't matter!"
03:46:02 <elliott> "This terrible design decision is because it's faster!"
03:46:16 <oerjan> > let ft = unfoldr . (((join (,) <$>) . find ((==1).denominator)) .) . mapM (*) in numerator <$> ft [17/91, 78/85, 19/51, 23/38, 29/33, 77/29, 95/23, 77/19, 1/17, 11/13, 13/11, 15/14, 15/2, 55/1] 2
03:46:18 <lambdabot> [15,825,725,1925,2275,425,390,330,290,770,910,170,156,132,116,308,364,68,4,...
03:46:25 <oerjan> newsham: ^ repeat for you
03:47:12 <Sgeo> ``Lambda expressions in newLISP evaluate to themselves and can always be treated as lists''
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03:47:38 <Sgeo> I see how everything elliott quoted is... disturbing.. but what about what I just pasted? I saw that mentioned as a criticism of newLisp
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03:47:50 <elliott> Sgeo: well that's not really a valid criticism
03:48:13 <Sgeo> e was quoting from the manual, and said
03:48:15 <Sgeo> "Have we learned nothing in the last 50 years?"
03:48:18 <Sgeo> I don't get it
03:48:35 <elliott> Well, it makes lexical scoping hard.
03:48:40 <elliott> Because you can't store the closure.
03:49:00 <elliott> Sgeo: Let's put it this way: If you want a tiny, dynamically-scoped, heretical Lisp, go for PicoLisp, because it manages to come out of all that and still be awesome.
03:49:21 <elliott> And it's tinier than newLISP.
03:49:35 <elliott> Also the 64-bit version is written in an assembler implemented in PicoLisp, which is cool.
03:52:08 <Sgeo> elliott, who, exactly, does dynamically-scoped *by default* impress?
03:53:11 * Sgeo googles PicoLisp
03:53:31 <elliott> I have no idea what you are talking about.
03:53:42 <Sgeo> elliott, how is dynamic scoping by default a good feature?
03:54:00 <elliott> PicoLisp's scoping is quite thoroughly fun, they have what's kind of like lexical symbols, that they use instead of strings.
03:54:12 <elliott> Syntax is "x"/underlined x. They do localisation by reassigning strings :)
03:54:25 <elliott> Sgeo: When did I say dynamic scoping is a good feature?
03:54:43 <elliott> I was saying that if you're going to use newLISP, stop and use PicoLisp instead.
03:54:51 <elliott> At least PicoLisp puts the scoping oddities to good use though, like I said.
03:55:13 <elliott> Also PicoLisp has a cool integrated database.
03:55:23 <elliott> Prolog-style. Integrated into the language.
03:56:05 <elliott> And still the interpreter is smaller than newLISP (at least on many platforms).
03:56:15 <elliott> 296 Kio statically-linked interpreter for the OpenWRT distribution.
03:56:51 <Sgeo> elliott, would you anger at me if I focused on understanding PicoLisp better than Common Lisp?
03:56:52 <elliott> It also has a built in web server/framework, I guess because they're trying to demonstrate their magical technology to compress any feature imaginable into a 3 byte binary.
03:57:11 <elliott> Sgeo: I am way beyond caring.
03:59:23 <monqy> I haven't bothered with common lisp yet (learned scheme first; from what I know I prefer it more too, and currently have little use for common lisp)
03:59:43 <Sgeo> "milliseconds per megabyte" is fast?
03:59:48 <Sgeo> For garbage collection/
03:59:53 <elliott> Common Lisp isn't a particularly nice language. It's not bad though.
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04:00:20 <elliott> I wouldn't mind being forced to code Common Lisp for money, to use the Spark terminology :p
04:01:28 <elliott> Sgeo: Depends how many milliseconds.
04:01:49 <elliott> Also what megabytes are being measured: live megabytes? garbage? total allocated?
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04:02:43 <elliott> wittykitty: who's a kitty, YOU'RE A KITTY
04:04:23 <Sgeo> I take it PicoLisp doesn't particularly like floating-point numbers
04:04:54 <elliott> I'm going to assume you know what this channel is about :P
04:06:44 <elliott> wittykitty: Your dictionary might not take into account the fact that freenode is primarily computing-related topics :)
04:06:57 <elliott> This channel is about esoteric programming langauges, but it's almost never on topic.
04:07:06 <elliott> Sgeo: picolisp just has fixed-point
04:07:48 <wittykitty> Then if anyone starts having an active conversation on programming languages, I'll just sit back and watch quietly lol.
04:08:07 <elliott> but that's happening right now :D
04:08:38 <Sgeo> ...brackets are super parentheses
04:08:50 <Sgeo> I don't know if that will make code uncomfortably readable, or readable
04:09:00 <Sgeo> erm, uncomfortably unreadable
04:09:17 <monqy> what is a super parenthesis
04:09:20 <elliott> Ceiling kitty is watching you talk about programming languages.
04:09:36 <elliott> monqy: parentheses that save the world
04:09:43 <elliott> Sgeo: afaict, nobody uses ]
04:10:02 <Sgeo> monqy, ((((] # That ] closes those parens
04:10:11 <elliott> it's pretty obvious when it'd be used though, i.e. at the end of definitions and nowhere else
04:10:16 <elliott> and i doubt most people count the parens there
04:10:19 <elliott> yeah it is pretty gross :)
04:10:25 <elliott> none of the example code uses it though so whatever
04:10:35 <monqy> I let vim do my paren counting
04:11:55 <monqy> I don't think I'd be comfortable with ] at all; I imagine it would feel rather unbalanced
04:12:18 <Sgeo> Why does PicoLisp contain a crappy crippled vi clone?
04:12:53 <elliott> Sgeo: it's not really crappy or crippled?
04:13:06 <elliott> vi (not vim) is a very small piece of software, they just wrote their own tuned for their language.
04:13:11 <elliott> I suspect it does the "x" as underlined x thing :)
04:13:20 <elliott> besides, it's a good show-off of ncurses, etc. capability.
04:13:20 <monqy> paren counting for ]
04:13:40 <elliott> seriously though, i've never heard of ] before now, and i've read quite a bit of picolisp code
04:13:50 <elliott> well not that much. but a bit!
04:13:54 <elliott> ok i really need to sleep.
04:14:03 <elliott> Sgeo: btw scheme 9 from empty space also has a "crappy crippled" vi clone :)
04:18:45 <Sgeo> I have to know: Is there a reason PicoLisp varargs act as though there could be a potentially infinite number of passed args?
04:18:58 <Sgeo> It's not a list, it's functions to get the current or next argument
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04:53:37 <Sgeo> "If a path starts with an at-mark ('@'), the rest (without the '@') is taken as the name of a Lisp function to be called. All arguments following the question mark are passed to that function."
04:53:53 <Sgeo> Uh, I'm going to go ahead and _not_ use PicoLisp for public-facing websites
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05:18:19 <newsham> oerjan: ick at the overuse of pl, but otherwise "neat"
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08:19:29 <Phantom_Hoover> 21:57:15: <elliott> looks like there's about 25 crats too
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09:05:54 <cheater_> yo patashu, patashu. oh he's gone
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10:32:48 <Ilari> Latest rumour on APNIC: Those 523 008 addresses are gone now. No information on possible returns/revocations.
10:33:34 <ais523> what do you think will happen in Asia as a result? business mostly as usual, but getting steadily worse as time goes on? mass hysteria? somewhere in between?
10:34:57 <Ilari> Of course, there are some large temp allocations that will get released eventually.
10:35:55 <Ilari> AFAIK, there's even a such /10(!). Of course, such blocks would get gobbled up fast when returned.
10:37:01 <Ilari> It will be intersting to see the APNIC delegated-extended file for today when it appears in about 5 hours.
10:38:50 <Ilari> Huston estimate appears to be 2 days to depletion (depletion may already happened).
10:40:39 <Ilari> Heh, this depletion widget's estimate of APNIC address space usage is about 100 addresses per second. :-)
10:48:34 <Ilari> I just realized that the security problems with external Javashit frameworks are a good bit worse than I previously thought. :-/
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13:51:20 <Ilari> APNIC delegated-exteneded should be out in about one and half hours. :-)
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15:17:58 <Vorpal> <Ilari> APNIC delegated-exteneded should be out in about one and half hours. :-) <-- hm?
15:18:43 <Vorpal> what is delegated-extended?
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15:20:03 <ais523> Vorpal: a file that will incidentally reveal whether APNIC has completely run out yet
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15:20:35 <Vorpal> ais523, ah. So what is its main purpose then?
15:21:15 <ais523> I think it lists who owns which prefixes or something like that, but am not sure of the details
15:21:25 <Vorpal> ais523, do you have native ipv6 yet btw?
15:21:26 <cpressey> oh yeah, it's around that day today isn't it
15:21:28 <ais523> as in, the "resellers" who handle the small allocations for APNIC
15:21:31 <ais523> and no, I don't tihnk so
15:21:44 <ais523> not on either of my borrowed connections
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15:22:18 <Vorpal> ais523, sometimes there are misconfigured laptops on the university wlan that broadcasts ipv6 tunnels
15:22:31 <Vorpal> as in, broadcast that they are ipv6 routers
15:22:39 <ais523> or are they just lying?
15:22:46 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.03: 16k+8k to Australia, 35x2k+120x1k+240x512+707x256 to China, /32+/48 to India.
15:22:52 <Vorpal> ais523, well, I tested connecting using one to kame, worked
15:23:03 <Vorpal> of course, their uptime is pretty unreliable
15:23:19 <Vorpal> Ilari, so are they out yet?
15:23:45 <Ilari> Only addresses listed available are in the final 103/8 block, so yes.
15:24:02 <Vorpal> also what? 707 /24 to China?
15:24:24 <Vorpal> how did they end up with spread out /24 in the first place?
15:24:59 <Ilari> Apparently that stuff to china is a single allocation (I didn't check). All those 1 102 fragments that is.
15:25:47 <Ilari> Oops, that should be /32+2x/48 to India.
15:26:00 <Vorpal> Ilari, you mean like one continuous range, but that doesn't fit to a CIDR?
15:26:45 <Vorpal> Ilari, okay, that raises the question again. How did they end up with spread out /24s in various places...
15:27:14 <Vorpal> I mean, what reason would a RIR have to end up fragmenting it at that level?
15:27:28 <Ilari> Like 1.0.1.x, 1.1.0.x, etc...
15:27:48 <Ilari> Numerious sizes of blocks to allocate.
15:28:07 <Vorpal> Ilari, I thought it was Africa that got the 1.0.0.0/8 ?
15:28:09 <Ilari> And 1/8 having /24s too contaminated to use doesn't help any.
15:28:20 <Ilari> No, it was APNIC that got 1/8.
15:29:34 <Vorpal> Ilari, aren't those actually contaminated /32 in some cases? Like 1.2.3.4. It seems less likely that, for example, 1.2.3.83 would be as contaminated
15:29:50 <Vorpal> but I guess handing out sub-/24 would be annoying
15:30:12 <Ilari> IIRC, only RIR that does that is RIPE NCC.
15:30:29 <Vorpal> Ilari, RIPE hands out sub-/24? Wow
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15:30:59 <Vorpal> speaking of which, what is the estimates for RIPE depletion?
15:31:18 <Vorpal> Isn't it likely to be next?
15:31:23 <Ilari> 1 039 093 /32s remaining (514 806 to allocate to reach half-block threshold).
15:31:42 <Ilari> Yes, RIPE is likely next. They themselves say "this year".
15:31:45 <Vorpal> Ilari, so, which month does that put us in?
15:32:31 <Vorpal> I'm happy to have a ipv6 tunnel now, that is all I can say. And that the ISPs suck.
15:32:38 <Ilari> I haven't seen quality estimates. Yes, Lagerholm's site has estimates, but those RIR depletion estimates seems way out there.
15:33:08 <Vorpal> Ilari, so I guess now, the attention will turn from APNIC to RIPE NCC?
15:33:36 <Ilari> Guess so. Also interesting to follow IPv6 allocation rates at APNIC.
15:38:20 <Ilari> Today some idiots made article titled "Why you shouldn't worry about switching to IPv6 now". Nice to make article like that on RIR X-day.
15:39:58 <Ilari> How that reminds me of Bagdad Bob? :-)
15:40:23 <Ilari> Iraqi information minister.
15:40:48 <Vorpal> hm okay, what happened there then?
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15:41:20 <Vorpal> btw I think that the allocation policy used for ipv6 is utterly stupid.
15:41:52 <Vorpal> something between a /48 and a /64 would be best for end user allocation.
15:42:25 <Vorpal> so okay, you want stateless auto config, maybe you want multiple subnets. But something like a /56 or so would work fine...
15:44:15 <cpressey> prime numbers are best, of course
15:44:23 <Ilari> All IPv6 allocations from all RIRs combined wouldn't bring even one RIR to half-block threshold (and IIRC not even 3x that amount).
15:46:40 <Vorpal> oh iwc comic number 3000 today. Heh.
15:47:26 <Ilari> Potaroo.net says /14.8219 (636934199443459 /64s). Slightly old info (no todays allocations), but.
15:49:07 <Vorpal> Ilari, so a total of 636934199443459 /64s allocated. Okay. Any stats on how many separate allocations make up that?
15:49:54 <Ilari> Newest APNIC figures: /17.2323 (119808693370883 /64s).
15:49:56 <Vorpal> since I have a /48 for my tunnel, measuring in /64s might not be that sane. I use exactly one /64 in it
15:51:15 <Ilari> Okay, looking up how many individual allocations make up that world figure. For APNIC, it is 1 748 allocations.
15:52:17 <Vorpal> Ilari, a LOT less in other words. Though I guess they are /32s to LIRs mostly
15:52:48 <Vorpal> and I suspect finding how many end user allocations there are would be tricky, for a start how do you define an end user.
15:52:52 <Ilari> There are total of 1492 member IDs. 1400 of those only have one single block.
15:53:16 <Ilari> ... Member IDs with IPv6 allocations, that is.
15:53:48 <Ilari> Of course, Allocations to LIR are just shown as single allocation with no substructure.
15:55:29 <Ilari> 7777 IPv6 allocations worldwide (but that doesn't include ones done today).
15:56:14 <Vorpal> Ilari, it would be more interesting to look on LIR level I guess. Though a lot more work.
15:56:16 <Ilari> Some members have multiple blocks. I guess those are mostly LIRs.
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15:56:42 <Vorpal> Ilari, wait a second, are there some entities that aren't LIRs that ask RIRs for IPs?
15:56:53 <Ilari> I don't know how to get such data. Looking at how much that BR LIR that has IPv6 /16(!) has allocated could be interesting.
15:57:33 <Vorpal> Ilari, I thought IANA allocated for RIRs, which allocated for LIRs, which allocated for everyone else?
15:57:52 <Vorpal> (where everyone else would be ISPs mostly, possibly some large companies too)
15:58:28 <Ilari> I think some ISPs and even companies allocate directly from RIR.
15:58:59 <Vorpal> Ilari, what are the LIRs for then?
15:59:11 <Ilari> Due to APNIC pricing, not probably done a lot in that region, but even some private individuals have address space obtained from RIR.
16:00:16 <Ilari> Oh, and not just address space, also a ASN.
16:00:34 <Vorpal> Ilari, so, has APNIC issued any press release or such about this depletion?
16:01:00 <Vorpal> Ilari, you mean, that there is some private individual who got an ASN from a RIR?
16:01:49 <Vorpal> Ilari, if so I wonder why. The only reason I can think of would be multi-homing. But that seems somewhat absurd still.
16:02:10 <Ilari> Yeah, private individual with ASN. I haven't seen such press release yet.
16:02:48 <Vorpal> Ilari, any info on who that person is?
16:03:47 <Ilari> At least Owen DeLong has ASN + PI space from ARIN. Probably others as well.
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16:04:22 <Ilari> Provoder Independent
16:05:57 <Vorpal> Ilari, is there any risk of running out of ASNs btw?
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16:06:56 <Ilari> I don't think there is, especially since ASN space expansion gave 4 billion new free ASNs.
16:07:12 <Vorpal> Ilari, that sounds like IPv4 size heh
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16:10:32 <Ilari> There are (slightly old info) 12262 legacy ASNs available. Estimated depletion in 2013.
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16:11:21 <Vorpal> Ilari, how well upgraded is the infrastructure for non-legacy ASNs?
16:11:51 <Ilari> No idea really. One can also work around lack of equipement support for 32-bit ASNs.
16:12:05 <Ilari> (one can configure static routes)
16:15:05 <Ilari> I actually have one manually configured IPv6 route here: One /48 is routed to eth0.
16:16:35 <Vorpal> Ilari, well yes I have one too, because this computer acts as a router for the rest of the network
16:17:47 <Ilari> There's also one /128 automatically configured route within that /48 pointing to loopback (routes always operate on "longest-match").
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16:18:46 <Ilari> So /128 is preferred over /48 if both match.
16:25:18 <Vorpal> Ilari, actually I have two manual routes it seems like. One for the /64 I use. One for null-routing the rest of the /48
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16:30:45 <Ilari> I just send the entiere block to LAN, without nullrouting anything.
16:40:30 <Vorpal> Ilari, well, since I use stateless autoconfig, nothing except that /64 will actually be used
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16:47:46 <Ilari> Nullrouting might be good to avoid ping-pong and neighbor cache DOSes, but I don't think there is going to be ping-pong from sending extra traffic to LAN.
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16:53:06 <Vorpal> Ilari, seems more prudent to null route unused space
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16:53:38 <Vorpal> Ilari, the main issue I found was getting the routing computer to be accessible over ipv6. That took some work
16:53:59 <Vorpal> well, I guess once you know about it...
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17:03:38 <cheater_> i have finally found out what elliott's last name means
17:03:39 <cheater_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Hurd
17:03:55 <cheater_> HURD is a mutually recursive acronym, standing for HIRD of Unix-replacing daemons, where HIRD stands for HURD of interfaces representing depth.
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17:30:33 <Ilari> Hah, now the shown depletion rate is about 200 addresses per second.
17:31:52 <Ilari> (For APNIC, except that RIR has already been depleted).
17:33:44 <Sgeo> "We chose this example by noting that services are always monadic (i.e., taking a single argument instead of a tuple of arguments)
17:33:48 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
17:34:04 <Sgeo> My mind broke for two seconds, before I realized I overdosed on Haskell
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17:54:20 <newsham> its amusing that gnu spent more effort coming up with a retarded name for hurd than it did in writing the software
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17:56:55 <Vorpal> <Ilari> Hah, now the shown depletion rate is about 200 addresses per second. <-- so it is pretty much fake then?
17:57:20 <Ilari> Yeah, the address countdown is.
17:57:43 <Ilari> Its showing APNIC at 1 block out of 47.
18:01:05 <newsham> --- orange.kame.net ping6 statistics ---
18:01:05 <newsham> 2 packets transmitted, 2 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
18:01:05 <newsham> round-trip min/avg/max/std-dev = 210.903/210.904/210.904/0.000 ms
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18:05:16 <newsham> what is online collaborative fiction? just a common theme to inspire art works? or some kinda online game?
18:08:49 <newsham> reusing the same words isnt helping myunderstnading :)
18:09:42 <olsner> it's about collaborating online
18:09:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Blech, the initiator of it is a libertarian eurosceptic.
18:10:22 <ais523> Ilari: hmm, APNIC is definitely depleted, then?
18:11:05 <newsham> is it a combination of people working on independant scifi but collaborating on a general framework and theme?
18:11:18 <olsner> "multi-authored online science fiction world-building project"
18:12:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not sure, they have a wiki-y thing that serves as a reference.
18:12:17 <Ilari> Well, there can be blocks outside 103/8 that are released back to available, but at least for time being, no addresses outside the final /8 to allocate.
18:12:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Given the general quality of writing in such projects, I refuse to read the actual fiction.
18:12:44 <newsham> ok, so it seems nobody here is quite exactly sure what it is.. next question -- do the people participating know what ti is?
18:12:46 <Vorpal> Ilari, oh, so the final /8 is still left?
18:12:50 <newsham> or is the idea to be so vague as to ensure success? :)
18:13:10 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: I quite like SCP though, which probably counts as online collaborative fiction too
18:13:43 <Ilari> Yeah, but allocations from the final /8 are much more restricted than previously.
18:15:27 <newsham> i love that nobody bothered to stop nortel selling address blocks during bankruptcy
18:15:37 <newsham> i guess the market wont be entirely a black one
18:16:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I just read the TV Tropes entry and skimmed the reference site.
18:16:54 <olsner> admit it: you write online collaborative fiction!
18:22:32 <Gregor> And are a libertarian euroskeptic.
18:22:59 <newsham> what is a euroskeptic skeptical about?
18:24:15 <newsham> i'm pretty sure europe exists.
18:24:18 <newsham> or do you mean the currency?
18:24:33 <Gregor> newsham: Ha, you actually believe Europe exists?
18:24:37 <Gregor> People believe such silly lies.
18:24:39 <olsner> europe exists? I'm not so sure, I haven't seen it
18:24:47 <Gregor> Also the world is flat btw.
18:24:51 <Vorpal> newsham, are you sure?
18:24:56 <newsham> i went to paris, berlin, prague and vienna. or at least thats what they want you to believe.
18:25:09 <Gregor> newsham: That's what they want YOU to believe!
18:25:22 <Gregor> Paris is actually just Hoboken.
18:25:33 <newsham> that would explain the disdain for americans
18:25:34 <olsner> you might have gone to a place called paris, BUT: does that mean you were in europe?
18:25:40 <Vorpal> newsham, same principle as the sets in Holy Wood. Just somewhat more detailed on the backside
18:26:14 <oklopol> i'm like to Holy Wood YOUR backside
18:30:20 <Phantom_Hoover> [19:22] <newsham> what is a euroskeptic skeptical about?
18:30:23 <olsner> aw crap, redirects will not work perfectly either... browsers are way too sensible, they will have limits on the number of redirects they follow
18:32:15 <olsner> well, that saves me the trouble of implementing it, I guess
18:33:31 <Vorpal> olsner, of implementing what?
18:33:50 <oklopol> uk's membership for the eu
18:33:59 <olsner> Vorpal: changing my thue to mod_rewrite compiler to do redirects instead of rewriting
18:36:08 <olsner> plus, I'm not even sure if redirects actually make apache start a new "request", or if the old one keeps handling the redirected-to url
18:36:25 <olsner> (the whole problem is that apache never frees any memory while handling a request)
18:37:32 <fizzie> Well, the client at least sends a whole new request; it would be most logical for Apache to treat it as a completely new thing too.
18:38:54 <fizzie> But there is the limit of redirections clients follow, I think 20 is a common number for that.
18:40:29 <ais523> I thought it was 8 or so
18:41:14 <fizzie> Firefox (at least this one; it's network.http.redirection-limit in about:config) and wget default to 20, curl defaults to 50.
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18:49:45 <Gregor> Well then you should stop stabbing them. Then they would stop being so bloody AND (probably) stop clamoring.
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19:12:24 * Sgeo sees some PicoLisp code
19:12:25 <Sgeo> (de *Straight `west `east `south `north)
19:12:38 <Sgeo> That's... in retrospect.. sensible
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19:19:36 <newsham> http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/x/machine/fractran2.py
19:19:59 <newsham> done with vector of storage cells and test/decr/add ops instead of fractions
19:21:12 <newsham> has anyone written a compiler for generating fractrans programs from something higher level?
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19:26:51 <olsner> probably cheating! but "curl -L --max-redirs 200000 URL" works fine, hopefully this will print "hello world" in a while
19:27:26 <olsner> though going by the access logs, the brainfuck program hasn't even printed 'h' yet
19:28:47 <olsner> and it's only using about 1/100th of the bandwidth... I guess it's latency limited
19:29:50 <olsner> I think I should optimize it a bit so every step doesn't require a redirect
19:32:29 <Gregor> OK, what in blue blazes are you doing with some HTTP-redirect-based BF interpreter or some such nonsense? :P
19:32:57 <olsner> Gregor: no, not a BF interpreter... a Thue interpreter :)
19:33:23 <olsner> it's just that my favourite example Thue program is a BF interpreter
19:33:32 <olsner> and my favourite example BF program is hello world
19:33:35 <Gregor> So it does one step of reduction then redirects the browser?
19:33:54 <Gregor> Using the HTTP Location: header I assume?
19:33:59 <olsner> it used to try to do all steps as internal redirects, but that just makes apache explode
19:34:38 <Gregor> If you want it not to boink browsers, you should either use <meta> refresh (which will still boink browsers but they may not notice :P ) or JS document.location.href = "whatever"
19:37:53 <olsner> now it printed something: 1000001_1011011_1100010_1100010_1100101_11101_1010000_1100101_1101000_1100010_1011010_11110_1001_ :D
19:38:44 <newsham> i was thinking that too, gregor, but disadvantage is that you couldnt use curl
19:39:17 <olsner> Gregor: well, sure, but that's annoying, then I have to redirect to a script or something that outputs an actual response
19:39:51 <olsner> granted, I do that at the end to print the result, but only at the end and only once
19:44:37 <Gregor> olsner: I'm trying to decide in what universe you're operating where putting a Location: header is easy but having a response below that is hard ...
19:45:22 <olsner> hmm, that output definitely isn't "hello world", it starts with "A[bbe"
19:45:50 <olsner> Gregor: the universe of mod_rewrite
19:46:42 <Gregor> olsner: OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhh
19:46:48 <Gregor> Good lawd, that's terrifying X-D
19:47:34 <olsner> Gregor: it involves a compiler written in sed
19:47:57 <olsner> (it's a trivial compiler, but still it's a compiler. technically.)
19:52:17 <newsham> i wonder if esoteric programming languages spike in popularity during a recession
19:55:15 <olsner> hmm, the BF program is correct at least... I wonder if the bf interpreter is what's wrong
19:56:03 <olsner> it could be something evil like accidentally doing replacements in the output
19:56:34 <Ilari> In final 30 days, APNIC burned through 40 710 400 addresses (2.427 blocks).
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19:57:50 <Gregor> Ilari: RIPE challenged them to a race to the finish.
19:58:18 <olsner> hmm... has anyone built a sed in sed?
19:58:34 <Gregor> I assume you mean in multistep-sed?
19:59:31 <Gregor> As in, applying sed repeatedly to reach a fixed point or other terminal condition.
19:59:51 <olsner> hmm, sounds like cheating
20:00:26 <Gregor> I'm not sure if it's powerful enough without, although it certainly could be, it's got a lot of Darke Artse I never really use :P
20:00:45 <fizzie> It has conditional branching and all, I'm pretty sure you can do ~anything.
20:01:22 <fizzie> Test. Branch to the : command verb bearing the label if any substitutions have been made since the most recent reading of an input line or execution of a t. If label is not specified, branch to the end of the script."
20:01:54 <olsner> there's only one input though (stdin), so there'd have to be some magic involved to get the sed script into your interpreter and also get the input file/stream
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20:02:45 <Gregor> fizzie: Yowza, that's not even a conditional /block/, it's a conditional /goto/.
20:02:48 <Gregor> Yeah, with that, probably TC.
20:02:51 <olsner> maybe one of the gnu extensions can be used to treat the first file as the script, and remaining files as input, encoding the whole script and its hold space inside hold space
20:03:07 <fizzie> olsner: GNU sed can use the 'e' command to pipe input from shell to the pattern space.
20:03:34 <fizzie> (Or evaluate whatever's in the pattern space.)
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20:04:30 <olsner> Gregor: I think it's obviously TC since it can implement any kind of string rewriting... if you have infinite memory, that is
20:04:40 <fizzie> Even POSIX sed has the 'r' command to read multiple files, but I guess it doesn't count since it's just "read and write directly to stdout", you can't really do much with it.
20:05:11 <Gregor> olsner: Single-step string rewriting without recursion or iteration is not TC.
20:05:19 <Gregor> olsner: It was the iteration I didn't know it had.
20:05:29 <olsner> ah, right, you can put sed in a loop yes
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20:07:27 <olsner> fizzie: using 'e' is probably cheating :)
20:07:52 <fizzie> Well, combining program and input in one file has long traditions too.
20:07:54 <Ilari> Annoucement from APNIC Secretariat that they are in phase three exhaustion.
20:08:21 <Gregor> Phase three is when the ritual suicide starts, right?
20:08:23 <olsner> if making a real challenge out of it I think you'd only be allowed to use e to implement the e command :)
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20:12:27 <fizzie> olsner: Regarding your mod-rewrite and "I don't want to make a script" thing: how about Location:-redirecting into a data: URL which contains a HTML page with <meta>/javascript redirection?
20:13:12 <olsner> fizzie: ooh, that's a good idea!
20:13:43 <fizzie> For some rather strange values of "good", I guess.
20:15:43 <olsner> it would mean that you never have to leave the safe and sane environment of URL rewriting and redirection
20:16:01 <olsner> if redirection to data: url:s works as it should, that is
20:19:49 <newsham> my ip addresses are exhausted today.
20:20:37 <fizzie> If not, you can always just redirect to a static .html file which takes the query string and location.href='s that; then the non-mod_rewrite part is at least quite minimal. (I don't really know how well browsers catch redirect loops when it comes to non-HTTP-level redirecting.)
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20:34:49 <olsner> haha, this is only 25% slower than the python implementation of thue
20:35:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I need to invent something to make that the slogan of.
20:36:28 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: this is by doing one http request per rewrite, instead of just doing some string replacement in python
20:37:01 <Phantom_Hoover> LUDICROUSLY INEFFICIENT HTTP: only 25% slower than Python!
20:37:40 <olsner> my implementation isn't particularly optimized though, I might be able to even the odds a bit
20:40:57 <fizzie> Python: providing up to 20% speedups for existing snail-based solutions.
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20:45:39 <Gregor> Today I: Accidentally utterly broke my GRUB install, then fixed it from Mac OS X by booting with my ext partition as a HD in qemu with a GNU/Linux boot CD.
20:47:06 <olsner> Angus "Gregor" MacGyver
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20:49:33 <newsham> although them giving out all their customers information isnt helping
20:50:21 <Gregor> Does vmware even allow you to give an arbitrary file (in this case, in fact, a block device) as a hard disk?
20:50:29 <newsham> it does. thankfully my employer did the exchange.
20:50:36 <newsham> you can use vmware player for free.
20:50:44 <newsham> which isnt too bad if you know how to edit the config files
20:51:00 <newsham> gregor: you can use block devs, yes.. arbitrary files, no.
20:51:27 <fizzie> I do the "fetch files from a Linux partition on a dual-boot system when in Windows" operation using VirtualBox, though VirtualBox's way of configuring a "pass-through" style raw disk partition is quite horrible.
20:52:51 <fizzie> You need to do something like "vboxmanage internalcommands createrawvmdk -filename blah.vmdk -rawdisk \\.\PhysicalDrive0" to make a vmware .vmdk file for the raw disk; then that .vmdk file can be attached with the VirtualBox GUI.
20:54:39 <fizzie> As far as I know, no. (At least in the open-sores edition... though I guess that's quite close to the commercial one nowadays.)
20:55:09 <olsner> "open-sores" :D I don't think I've seen that pun before
20:55:15 <olsner> though it's so obvious in hindsight
20:55:20 <newsham> i thought you were the pun master.
20:55:21 <Gregor> FIZZIE STOLE IT FROM FOXTROT 'CUZ HE'S A LOSER
20:55:39 <newsham> i'm questioning your pun credentials
20:55:51 <fizzie> oerjan's the one with terrible puns.
20:56:07 * Gregor : Pun free since twenty-oh-three.
20:56:28 <newsham> he who would pun would pick a pocket.
20:56:41 <olsner> Gregor: Pun free fun spree?
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21:14:16 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Today I: Accidentally utterly broke my GRUB install, then fixed it from Mac OS X by booting with my ext partition as a HD in qemu with a GNU/Linux boot CD. <-- how did you break it?
21:14:27 <Vorpal> also doing it with a plain boot cd would have worked just as well
21:15:29 <Vorpal> Gregor, at least grub 1 used to be ridiculously hard to break
21:15:34 <Vorpal> I haven't used grub 2 much yet
21:15:52 <olsner> it was much easier in the lilo days
21:15:53 <Vorpal> (when it comes to bootloaders I'm definitely "don't replace what works")
21:16:59 <Vorpal> olsner, heck I have a software RAID 1 setup. I can boot from either disk. Trivial to make it work with grub. Just install from grub shell giving different root arguments for the different disks
21:17:08 <Vorpal> err, that is root maps I think
21:17:51 <olsner> it's faster than python now, by 15%
21:17:55 <Vorpal> olsner, another good thing with grub 1 is that it doesn't update! Means no annoying "gah I hope this doesn't break" moments
21:18:11 <Vorpal> olsner, how insane. Is that a very bad implementation in python?
21:18:18 <Vorpal> yes I know python is horribly slow
21:18:29 <Vorpal> but it shouldn't be slower than doing it by TCP requests
21:18:51 <Vorpal> slower than mod_rewrite. Sure.
21:18:55 <olsner> well, I don't think it's supposed to be fast, the implementation in python
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21:19:29 <olsner> but really, 1) find string, 2) replace ... not too many opportunities for slowing things down
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21:20:04 <Vorpal> wtf. I just got a notification pop up. With the title of the program, and it's icon. But no message.
21:20:47 <Vorpal> great, part 5 download finished hours before part 4 will be done
21:20:57 <olsner> oh, and there's a bug in this somewhere, Hello in "Hello World!" comes out as "A[bbe
21:21:18 <Vorpal> olsner, isn't that rot-15?
21:21:56 <Vorpal> olsner, that looks to me like the code point simply is offset
21:23:58 <newsham> > map (chr.(+10).ord) "A[bbe"
21:24:48 <oerjan> 20:37:47: <Phantom_Hoover> A snail: only 25% slower than Python.
21:24:48 <oerjan> 20:40:57: <fizzie> Python: providing up to 20% speedups for existing snail-based solutions.
21:28:02 <olsner> the full wrong output is: 1000001_1011011_1100010_1100010_1100101_11101_1010000_1100101_1101000_1100010_1011010_11110_1001_
21:28:15 <olsner> in _-delimited binary :)
21:30:52 <olsner> hmm, it seems to be off by about 10%
21:31:18 <olsner> 15% faster, 10% less accurate
21:33:20 <oerjan> hm it would appear comments on a postcard did not update today
21:35:30 <fizzie> oerjan: If Python takes 1 second to do a thing, then the snail (being 25% slower) will take 1.25*1s = 1.25s, and the speedup when switching from the snail architecture to Python is then (1.25-1)/1.25 = 20%.
21:37:16 <fizzie> How dare I be factual, eh?
21:37:31 <oerjan> well that _is_ just one interpretation.
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21:38:15 <oerjan> the other is, if python does 4 things per second, then the snail (being 25% slower) will do 3. etc.
21:41:42 <newsham> how is 1 + .25 = 25% slower?
21:42:04 <newsham> that sounds exactly right to me
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21:45:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit, I'm tired with my superiority complex failing to activate on Redditors.
21:48:03 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: btw, I beat python by 15% in a newer benchmark
21:48:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I fail to notice that many of them are quite clearly people for whom I would ordinarily have nothing but contempt.
21:48:31 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner: SLIGHTLY LESS INEFFICIENT HTTP: only 15% slower than Python!
21:49:14 <olsner> (but the result is 10% wrong: as in the difference between each output character and the actual result is around 10% of the ascii code of the correct character)
21:49:27 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: no no, *faster* than python
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21:52:26 <olsner> I guess that means the last 10% of "Hello World!" will be the hardest
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22:05:49 <oerjan> how do you manage to get 10% off characters :D
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22:41:47 <Vorpal> <olsner> I guess that means the last 10% of "Hello World!" will be the hardest <-- huh?
22:42:25 <Vorpal> olsner, so... not even constant offset?
22:43:36 <Vorpal> err, someone spoke, just as I pressed power button on the monitor. How rude.
22:44:03 <Vorpal> oerjan, what is the madness you are talking about?
22:44:22 <oerjan> that 10% off Hello World
22:45:38 <oerjan> the logs imply something about bf in thue in mod_rewrite
22:45:41 <Vorpal> oerjan, well... 'z'- 10% would be rather different than '1'-10% for example (weird notation I know)
22:45:57 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh yes he is doing thue in mod_rewrite I know
22:46:01 <Vorpal> oerjan, I missed the bit about bf
22:46:17 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh and it is faster than some python thue implementation
22:46:23 <oerjan> but he didn't write the bf in thue did he...
22:46:50 <Vorpal> oerjan, maybe he used such a program for testing?
22:47:45 <Vorpal> oerjan, or are you saying bf in thue is new?
22:47:49 <oerjan> oh mod_rewrite is a kind of regexp rewriting language?
22:48:05 <oerjan> i'm just wondering where the 10% off thing would creep in...
22:48:13 <Vorpal> oerjan, mod_rewrite is a module for the apache web server that allows you to rewrite the URLs based on regexp yes
22:48:16 <Vorpal> oerjan, or redirect too
22:48:30 <oerjan> yeah but i guess olsner is treating it as an esolang...
22:48:51 <Vorpal> oerjan, where "rewrite" means "redirect behind the scenes, never tell the browser"
22:48:59 * oerjan has had ideas of implementing thue in /// as well
22:49:15 <Vorpal> oerjan, do it 20% faster than the python implementation!
22:49:23 <oerjan> or Itflabtijtslwi for input
22:49:40 <Vorpal> oerjan, how long does it take for you to write out that name?
22:49:49 <oerjan> but i keep stopping at the point where i realize thue has _worse_ IO than Itflabtijtslwi
22:50:12 <Vorpal> oerjan, shouldn't that make it easier?
22:50:18 <oerjan> Vorpal: well this time Itflabti came automatically and then i had to recall the acronym
22:51:00 <oerjan> easier maybe, but mainly it makes thue somehow less interesting
22:51:17 <oerjan> because it isn't BF IO-complete as you call it
22:51:48 <Vorpal> oerjan, well, BF-complete is quite a useful baseline. I think it was ehird who invented the term.
22:51:56 <Vorpal> It certainly wasn't me who invented it.
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22:52:18 <Vorpal> wait, what is the English idiom?
22:52:26 <oerjan> of the devil, i believe
22:52:28 <Vorpal> "Tala om trollen" in Swedish
22:52:47 <oerjan> "Når man snakker om sola" in norwegian
22:53:26 <Vorpal> oerjan, in Swedish I think the end is "så står de på förstutrappen" (I have no clue how to spell that last word...)
22:53:49 <Vorpal> but people often seem to cut idioms in half in Swedish.
22:54:21 <oerjan> förstutrappen looks logical to me, but i may not know the correct spelling of the individual parts
22:54:28 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh, it's "När man talar om trollet så står det i farstun" says wikipedia.
22:54:41 <oerjan> and yeah the "så skinner den" part is frequently left out in norwegian too
22:54:54 <Vorpal> oerjan, I'm pretty sure I heard it in plural form in Swedish
22:54:59 <Vorpal> (trollen, not trollet)
22:55:10 <Vorpal> could be local variations I guess
22:55:21 <Vorpal> oh it mentions that too
22:55:38 <fizzie> "Siinä paha missä mainitaan" in Finnish; lit. "there the evil where it was mentioned" or some-such.
22:56:01 <Vorpal> wait a second. This give us an evility scale
22:56:12 <Vorpal> I would say: Norwegian - Swedish - Finnish & English
22:56:22 <Vorpal> see? sun, troll, devil/evil
22:56:33 <Vorpal> I wonder what implications this have (if any)
22:58:35 <Vorpal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speak_of_the_devil is quite interesting. Includes a summary of different languages
22:58:59 <oerjan> maybe scandinavians of old times didn't like to mention the devil. especially if they believed the idiom...
22:59:15 <Vorpal> oerjan, I should try talking about the sun the next time it starts raining and I forgot my umbrella
22:59:34 <oerjan> sadly i don't think it works that way
22:59:39 <Vorpal> it still shines. Behind the clouds.
22:59:47 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes it does. It is the clouds that don't
22:59:54 <oerjan> over skyene er himmelen alltid blå
22:59:57 <elliott> 17:54:20: <newsham> its amusing that gnu spent more effort coming up with a retarded name for hurd than it did in writing the software
22:59:57 <elliott> *sniff* the newbie insults my name indirectly *sniff*
23:00:22 <Vorpal> oerjan, or at the current time point, på andra sidan planeten.
23:01:56 <oerjan> elliott: no no no, it's the mixing of "hird" with "turd" that is retarded
23:02:27 <Vorpal> elliott, so is your mom
23:02:34 <oerjan> elliott: also we have already established he's a sham
23:03:01 <Vorpal> oerjan, already? Considering how new he is here.
23:03:18 <oerjan> elliott: did i just whoosh Vorpal or not?
23:03:31 <elliott> i'm not sure, my Vorpal policy is a batch one
23:03:57 <Vorpal> oerjan, come on, it shouldn't be required to point out...
23:03:58 <oerjan> Vorpal: well i intended that pun too
23:04:12 <Vorpal> oerjan, I wasn't here then
23:04:26 <Vorpal> and I don't read logs apart from highlights
23:04:44 <oerjan> Vorpal: my log reading is a bit variable too
23:05:32 * oerjan is a little worried that several iwc threads seem to be coming to a conclusion
23:05:40 <Vorpal> oerjan, anyway, what do I have to do to make puns like that clear? <pun></pun> would kind of cut the edge off
23:05:51 <oerjan> it kindles my fear that he'll stop when he comes to the calvin & hobbes point
23:05:54 <Vorpal> oerjan, also comic 3000
23:06:12 <Vorpal> oerjan, that would be sad. What about espionage though?
23:06:23 <oerjan> the C&H is more important, besides they have not concluded completely yet
23:06:36 <elliott> 18:36:08: <olsner> plus, I'm not even sure if redirects actually make apache start a new "request", or if the old one keeps handling the redirected-to url
23:06:36 <elliott> 18:36:25: <olsner> (the whole problem is that apache never frees any memory while handling a request)
23:06:42 <elliott> of course they do, since http is stateless
23:06:59 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:07:11 <oerjan> Vorpal: DMM as a wellknown stated goal of reaching the same number of comics as calvin & hobbes did. three thousand something.
23:07:33 <Vorpal> elliott, Connection: Keep-Alive
23:07:41 <oerjan> afaik he has never said anything about stopping then, though
23:07:56 <Vorpal> oerjan, it would be terrible if he did
23:08:24 -!- elliott has joined.
23:08:47 <oerjan> <elliott> i'm not sure, my Vorpal policy is a batch one <-- you mean you don't try to judge individual utterances?
23:08:47 <Vorpal> anyway if apache uses a process or thread per TCP connection, and Connection: Keep-Alive is used, it is quite possible, that the statelessness does not come into play
23:09:02 <Vorpal> oerjan, I was wondering a bit about that too
23:09:28 <Gregor> Oh maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan, this NanoKONTROL is definitely going to drive me insane and/or improve my digital music.
23:09:55 <oerjan> Vorpal: also above, the pun was clear enough but i was assuming you understood i intended it which meant it was somewhat unclassy to say the rest explicitly
23:10:16 <Vorpal> Gregor, also I needed to do three re-takes on the word "NanoKONTROL", I kept reading "NanoKERNE<wait what>" several times
23:10:59 <Vorpal> oerjan, err what? I was just continuing your pun?
23:10:59 <elliott> Gregor is going to be playing TRANCE IN CLUBS ANY SECOND NOW THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU BECOME DIGITAL
23:11:06 <Vorpal> Gregor, oh. What does it do?
23:12:30 <oerjan> Vorpal: i was going for an Incredibly Lazy Pun (i was going to link tvtropes but the page seems to be missing?)
23:12:34 <Gregor> Vorpal: It has knobs and dials, and sends MIDI control events when you knob and dial them :P
23:12:39 <elliott> 19:58:18: <olsner> hmm... has anyone built a sed in sed?
23:12:39 <elliott> 19:58:34: <Gregor> I assume you mean in multistep-sed?
23:12:40 <elliott> 19:59:13: <olsner> multistep-sed?
23:12:40 <elliott> 19:59:31: <Gregor> As in, applying sed repeatedly to reach a fixed point or other terminal condition.
23:12:40 <elliott> 19:59:51: <olsner> hmm, sounds like cheating
23:12:40 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and while uplink is fun, it seems to require some quick reflections, which I don't really have.
23:12:40 <elliott> 20:00:26: <Gregor> I'm not sure if it's powerful enough without, although it certainly could be, it's got a lot of Darke Artse I never really use :P
23:13:01 <Vorpal> oerjan, hm I don't know what that is. Could you link me? ;P
23:13:09 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, they showed that later.
23:13:16 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Vorpal: It has knobs and dials, and sends MIDI control events when you knob and dial them :P <-- to what end?
23:13:20 <elliott> Gregor: I HADN'T SCROLLED DOWN TO THERE BITCH
23:13:24 <elliott> Repeated regexps are TC though (they can do BCT)
23:13:31 <elliott> I think even if your halting condition is just "output = input"
23:13:49 <oerjan> Vorpal: google links to it but tvtropes behaves as if it doesn't exist D:
23:14:14 <Vorpal> oerjan, google cache I mean
23:14:19 <Gregor> Vorpal: Well, ultimately any end you want. I'm going to hack up a quick (read: not at all quick) program to let me control tempo and velocities.
23:14:53 <oerjan> Vorpal: argh the google cache is the same, it probably has it only because it used to exist
23:14:54 <elliott> 20:45:39: <Gregor> Today I: Accidentally utterly broke my GRUB install, then fixed it from Mac OS X by booting with my ext partition as a HD in qemu with a GNU/Linux boot CD.
23:15:00 <Vorpal> oerjan, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.IncrediblyLazyPun
23:15:01 <elliott> Gregor: I'm gonna pick on you for "GNU/Linux" now.
23:15:43 <elliott> Or anyothercoreutils/linux :P
23:15:49 <elliott> 20:55:09: <olsner> "open-sores" :D I don't think I've seen that pun before
23:15:49 <elliott> 20:55:15: <olsner> though it's so obvious in hindsight
23:15:50 <elliott> Open sores dates back to ... uh, a long time ago.
23:15:53 <oerjan> Vorpal: ah. stealth pun then.
23:16:00 <Gregor> I try to use "GNU/Linux" whenever relevant, but I usually use a specific distro name to avoid it anyway. I've become a bit lazier but I usually only say "Linux" to mean the kernel.
23:16:12 <Vorpal> oerjan, the history is quite hideously sad
23:16:39 <Vorpal> newsham, as opposed to GNU/BSD
23:17:00 <Gregor> As opposed to not-GNU/Linux, or Debian's GNU/kFreeBSD, or ...
23:17:30 <Gregor> Suffice it to say that after being forced to use Mac OS X, and then FreeBSD, I learned how much I wurve the GNU userland :P
23:18:06 <newsham> heh, debian w/ freebsd.. amusing.
23:18:34 <oerjan> Vorpal: a victim of people going by what the title feels like meaning :(
23:18:54 <elliott> Gregor: IMO GNU/Linux is more "insulting" (FSvery-weakVO insulting) than Linux.
23:19:12 <elliott> Linux is in common usage to refer to an operating system with Linux as the kernel, but GNU/Linux is explicitly a list of parts, and as a list of parts it's woefully incomplete.
23:19:37 <Vorpal> <oerjan> Vorpal: a victim of people going by what the title feels like meaning :( <-- I meant, not having a redirect..
23:21:54 <oerjan> Vorpal: on wikipedia that would be an obvious candidate for a disambiguation page...
23:22:10 <Gregor> (The 'X' refers to both X.org and XFCE isn't that CLEVAR!!!)
23:22:36 <Gregor> That's pronounced by saying "Linux" and then vomiting, btw.
23:22:41 <Vorpal> oerjan, that would end up insane on tvtropes though
23:23:13 <elliott> Mostly because whenever I say "Linux" I think of Linux.
23:23:19 <elliott> That's generally enough to bring up the vomit.
23:23:38 <elliott> 23:08:47: <oerjan> <elliott> i'm not sure, my Vorpal policy is a batch one <-- you mean you don't try to judge individual utterances?
23:23:42 <elliott> uh... something like that.
23:23:56 <elliott> 23:12:40: <Vorpal> elliott, oh and while uplink is fun, it seems to require some quick reflections, which I don't really have.
23:24:00 <elliott> (1) Reflections does not mean that.
23:24:06 <elliott> (2) ...What? Uplink does not require that at all.
23:24:17 <Vorpal> elliott, err, bad translations.
23:24:21 <elliott> OK, sure, you can't move the mouse incredibly slowly when you're being traced, but the solution to that is to PROXY
23:24:38 <Vorpal> elliott, even through unfriendly systems?
23:24:41 <elliott> 23:13:49: <oerjan> Vorpal: google links to it but tvtropes behaves as if it doesn't exist D:
23:24:49 <elliott> oerjan: it may have been deleted as part of the great tvtropes idiocy
23:24:56 <Vorpal> elliott, ISSUE SOLVED BELOW! READ ON!
23:25:06 <oerjan> `addquote <Gregor> I use LiGNUXFCE+apps <Gregor> That's pronounced by saying "Linux" and then vomiting, btw.
23:25:10 <HackEgo> 363) <Gregor> I use LiGNUXFCE+apps <Gregor> That's pronounced by saying "Linux" and then vomiting, btw.
23:25:35 <oerjan> elliott: actually it looks like they had a fairly good reason to split it because people kept misinterpreting the name
23:25:59 <elliott> oerjan: If the page is just gone, that's idiocy. If it's a disambig, that's fine.
23:26:00 <oerjan> s/split/rename + split/
23:26:43 <oerjan> elliott: well to a wikipedian it looks like an obvious disambig candidate but maybe Vorpal is right that wouldn't work well on tvtropes
23:26:51 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, even through unfriendly systems?
23:27:10 <Vorpal> elliott, how does that make sense
23:27:33 <Vorpal> elliott, so theoretically I could add every system listed in InterNIC to that list and tunnel through them all?
23:27:40 <Vorpal> which would be quite a chore
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23:37:11 <elliott> Vorpal: IIRC you're meant to turn some hosts into shell proxy hosts, but I dunno.
23:37:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Has the storyline started for you yet?
23:37:31 <Vorpal> elliott, nah I did the tutorial basically
23:37:37 <Vorpal> elliott, besides I have the demo only
23:37:52 <elliott> Ha, it was added to the Ubuntu Software Centre last month X-D
23:38:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Ah, the demo doesn't have the storyline.
23:39:02 <Vorpal> elliott, well I couldn't find the non-demo
23:39:06 <Vorpal> elliott, do you have it?
23:39:20 <elliott> I was amazed the first time I wiped the drive of a host from the shell and then it failed to come back online, ever :)
23:40:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Yes, I have it, as in I bought it :P
23:40:05 <Vorpal> elliott, I found the UI for "hacking" things in that game utterly stupid. Far too hard to use compared to a real shell with tab complete
23:40:24 <Vorpal> elliott, The implications are obvious
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23:40:31 <Vorpal> especially if the linux version
23:40:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Uplink is only $15 *shrug*
23:40:55 <Vorpal> elliott, THE IMPLICATIONS ARE OBVIOUS
23:41:15 <elliott> 23:40:05: <Vorpal> elliott, I found the UI for "hacking" things in that game utterly stupid. Far too hard to use compared to a real shell with tab complete
23:41:15 <elliott> ........................................
23:41:20 <Vorpal> elliott, so, you are doing me a smaller favour than I did you
23:41:21 <elliott> It's *meant* to be utterly stupid.
23:41:26 <elliott> It's a hacker movie simulator game :P
23:41:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I know. I just didn't realise how terrible to use it would be
23:42:25 <Vorpal> elliott, I'd like a realistic hacker movie. It probably wouldn't sell.
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23:43:31 <elliott> Well, most movies have hacking scenes using NMAAAAP today :P
23:43:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Apart from the entire premise, Tron: Legacy's scenes were realistic I gather.
23:43:56 <elliott> http://jtnimoy.net/workviewer.php?q=178
23:44:28 <Vorpal> <elliott> http://jtnimoy.net/workviewer.php?q=178 <-- what's with the huge font?
23:44:43 <Vorpal> elliott, NO I MEANT THE PAGE TEXT
23:45:25 <elliott> Vorpal: It's light on text and has big pretty pictures.
23:45:28 <elliott> The presentation works for me *shrug*
23:45:42 <elliott> A font that light wouldn't work at smaller size anyway :P
23:46:02 <Vorpal> elliott, what? It's Ariel?
23:46:08 <Vorpal> elliott, at least for me it is
23:46:09 <elliott> oh! that guy invented http://www.balldroppings.com/
23:46:26 <elliott> Vorpal: do you have embeded fonts disabled? stupid question of course you do
23:46:34 <Vorpal> "font-family: HelveticaNeueUltraLight,Arial;"
23:46:37 <Vorpal> elliott, not that I know of
23:46:42 <elliott> it's Helvetica Neue ultra light, anyway
23:46:56 <elliott> Vorpal: what browser version?
23:47:08 <elliott> iirc firefox only has font embedding 3.6 up
23:47:09 <Vorpal> elliott, firefox 3.6.something
23:47:13 <elliott> but i can hardly believe you are still on 3.5
23:47:25 <Vorpal> elliott, this is on ubuntu lucid LTS
23:50:12 <Vorpal> elliott, what was the hanoi for?
23:50:42 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway why would nmap be used all over the place? nmap is for mapping ports. Nothing much else
23:50:49 <Vorpal> well, you can do some ARP scans with it too iirc
00:14:46 <oerjan> glogbot: what is elliott doing?
00:15:03 <elliott> glogbot says he's finding out why the -15 file didn't exist
00:15:06 <elliott> the answer is because nobody spoke yet
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00:45:49 * Sgeo wonders what Stanislav would think of PicoLisp
00:57:30 <tswett> No time to chat. Good night, everyone!
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01:04:43 <elliott> Vorpal: btw http://store.introversion.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=66
01:06:18 <Ilari> World IPv6 day: 8th June. APNIC depletion date: 14th April... What's wrong with this? :-)
01:17:07 <Gregor> First the opium wars, now this!
01:20:26 <Ilari> It'll be fun to check next IPv4 allocation rate figure and then see how it behaves in next days. Most probably drops A LOT.
01:21:48 <Sgeo> Presumably, Objective-C is not, in fact, limited to Macs
01:21:54 <Sgeo> So why is Nu limited to Macs?
01:22:21 <oerjan> but if it sharply climbs up in RIPE and ARIN - get nervous.
01:23:31 <Ilari> Right now major allocations list has 34 allocations by APNIC, 2 by RIPE, 2 by AFRINIC and 1 by LACNIC.
01:25:08 <oerjan> if, theoretically, the total allocation rate stayed the same, how long until all RIRs are depleted?
01:25:27 <oerjan> (can we get it in before 8th june? ;D)
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01:28:11 <oerjan> hm got to increase the panic then...
01:31:25 <Ilari> Well, APNIC estimated 3-6 months to depletion at the press confrence about IANA depletion. Reality: 2.5 months.
01:32:00 <elliott> He is Pushing his Panic Button.
01:38:50 <Ilari> Funky how recently IANA depletion estimates were May-June.
01:51:32 <coppro> Ilari: now what are you going to do since you can no longer waste your life informing us about APNIC depletion
01:52:08 <coppro> I did some minor analysis
01:52:23 <coppro> stochastic voting if not strictly linear in probability does induce strategic voting
01:53:02 <elliott> coppro: clarify "linear in probability"
01:53:31 <coppro> elliott: Once votes are tallied, the probability function scales linearly with votes
01:53:45 <coppro> anything else would give a situation where I might vote for a non-preferred candidate to spite a third
01:53:50 <elliott> coppro: That doesn't seem like an unreasonable constraint to place.
01:54:15 <coppro> elliott: but if you do that, the voting system is equivalent to pick someone at random and they pick the winner
01:54:33 <coppro> (assuming 100% turnout)
01:54:35 <elliott> coppro: yes, but it's a _weighted_ random
01:55:01 <coppro> elliott: Well suppose there are 100 electors
01:55:24 <coppro> if 60 vote for A and 40 for B, if there is 60% chance of A winning and 40% chance of B winning, this is equivalent to picking one elector at random and have them pick
01:55:57 * oerjan thought this was obvious
01:56:22 <coppro> elliott: If you do something different, then in a multi-way race, I might want a candidate to lose more than I want one to win, so strategic voting exists again
01:56:38 <elliott> <coppro> if 60 vote for A and 40 for B, if there is 60% chance of A winning and 40% chance of B winning, this is equivalent to picking one elector at random and have them pick
01:56:41 <elliott> that's exactly what the system is.
01:56:43 <coppro> since I will vote to give maximum weight to my vote
01:56:50 <coppro> elliott: you vehemently denied this
01:56:58 <elliott> coppro: I vehemently objected to your *wording* of it.
01:57:19 <elliott> You said "You pick someone at random and they choose a dictator", which is factually true but ignores the whole fact that the random is heavily weighted.
01:57:33 <elliott> It is therefore a true but insanely misleading and thus dishonest statement.
01:57:33 <coppro> elliott: No, it is accounting for the fact that it's heavily weighted
01:57:39 <elliott> "You pick someone at random and they choose a dictator"
01:57:50 <coppro> not 'they choose a dictator'
01:58:01 <elliott> <coppro> if 60 vote for A and 40 for B, if there is 60% chance of A winning and 40% chance of B winning, this is equivalent to picking one elector at random and have them pick
01:58:12 <coppro> You pick someone at random and they are a dictator, where dictator means that person dictates the outcome
01:58:17 <elliott> but OTOH, it's "smoother" than that
01:58:21 <elliott> yes, statistically, that is true
01:58:44 <coppro> then why do you object to me saying this?
01:58:50 <Ilari> coppro: Well, it took only few minutes to assemble that report. :-)
01:58:52 <coppro> and by random, I mean unweighted
01:59:03 <elliott> coppro: because the "dictator" language is loaded
01:59:15 <coppro> elliott: I was using the technical definition
01:59:30 <elliott> coppro: Very well, but I still think the way you said it was pretty flippant
01:59:45 <elliott> since AFAICT you were using it as an argument against
02:00:26 <elliott> coppro: Anyway, I don't think stochastic voting is necessarily a good idea when there's only 100 people involved.
02:00:37 <coppro> I just picked 100 as a small sample size
02:00:57 <elliott> On the other hand, when it's a whole country, I definitely think it balances out.
02:01:11 <elliott> coppro: also, I wouldn't support it for a presidential election system or anything, mostly because that's a stupid model anyway
02:01:18 <coppro> I am not a fan because of the possibility for bizarre outcomes
02:01:27 <elliott> so all that is dictated is one constituency's winner
02:01:37 <elliott> /riding's (I KNOW THESE CANAMADIAN LINGOS)
02:02:38 <elliott> coppro: Shrug -- the simulated election results for Canada look reasonable to me; I realise that the votes used are not accurate because they were made in a different voting system, but I don't think there's such a huge proportion of tactical voting that it would skew the outcome _that_ significantly.
02:02:50 <elliott> I didn't look at the results too closely, though, as I know little to nothing of Canadian politics.
02:03:43 <oerjan> fearing "possibility for bizarre outcomes" is irrational if those outcomes are extremely unlikely.
02:06:45 <Gregor> I ... don't know why I put two z's there.
02:07:15 <Gregor> Sounds like a good enough reason to me.
02:07:19 <elliott> "Bizørjan" sounds rather hard to pronounce, if oerjan's attempts to get me to pronounce his name correctly indicate anything.
02:07:32 <elliott> You're still oh-er-djan to me, oerjan.
02:10:26 <coppro> elliott: I know that the odds of a ridiculous outcome are quite unlikely
02:10:31 <coppro> it is still unsettling that they could occur
02:10:34 <elliott> coppro: oerjan is the one who said that.
02:10:45 <elliott> coppro: anyway, everyone could suddenly vote for the British National Party.
02:10:54 <elliott> that is *also* an unlikely, possible, bizarre, terrible outcome.
02:10:56 <coppro> although perhaps if you were to remove all outcomes with a sufficiently low percentage and then renormalize?
02:11:13 <elliott> perhaps. but probability itself kind of does that itself, stochastically ;)
02:11:22 <coppro> the problem is that it isn't absolute
02:11:31 <coppro> a 100% green house isn't impossible, for instance
02:11:37 <oerjan> every PM except for the BNP could die in a freak accicent
02:11:37 <elliott> ("And yes, I think it is fair for the Marxist-Leninist Party to get one seat in Parliament once every 100 years." --Russell O'Connor)
02:12:01 <elliott> coppro: erm, you realise that the stochastic process is applied individually to each constituency, right?
02:12:12 <coppro> elliott: hence it would be possible to get a 100% green parliament
02:12:29 <elliott> coppro: um, yes, that's also possible and as unlikely by other means
02:12:29 <coppro> but if you did something like calculate the odds of any given party distribution of seats
02:12:40 <coppro> and remove all with probability less than, say, one in one billion
02:12:52 <oerjan> coppro: and before that happens, earth will be swallowed by a freak black hole
02:13:05 <coppro> oerjan: or it might happen first try
02:13:15 <elliott> I accuse coppro of not understanding probability theory.
02:13:22 <oerjan> coppro: the "before" was in the "more likely" sense
02:13:33 <coppro> oerjan: ok, I agree with you
02:13:50 <elliott> I will wager that there are many things more terrible and more likely than a 100% green parliament with a stochastic voting system
02:14:05 <coppro> elliott: Yeah, there is
02:14:09 <coppro> a 100% conservative parliament
02:14:16 <oerjan> (note: no _actual_ calculation of either probability happened here. and what elliott said.)
02:14:49 <elliott> so I think it doesn't make sense to use that as an argument against the system. Rather than a 100% green parliament, IMO a better criticism would look like:
02:15:10 <elliott> "If one party has 49% of the vote and another has 51%, the former party could very easily win, and this applies with even less-balanced percentages."
02:15:11 <oerjan> coppro: basically your fear is like those people refusing to take vaccines against deadly diseases because of rare side effects
02:15:28 <elliott> i.e., the result of _big_ but inequal probabilites
02:15:47 <elliott> I don't think it's all that unreasonable for someone with 33% of the vote to have a 1/3 chance of winning, though.
02:16:01 <elliott> Over all constituencies it would probably balance out anyway.
02:16:54 <elliott> (It has to be said that I don't advocate a stochastic system in reality, for the sole reason that the immense mountain of FUD that would be generated against it would topple any attempt to put it into practice.)
02:17:12 <elliott> (What I am saying is: people are stupid and this is why we can't have nice things.)
02:22:47 * Sgeo installs PicoLisp on the school computer
02:23:08 <coppro> elliott: we should obviously implement this voting system in a coup
02:23:34 <elliott> coppro: all we need is for eliezer yudkowsky to declare himself supreme ruler of the earth!
02:23:44 <elliott> i forget how the rest of the plan goes.
02:24:25 <coppro> well the end is profit right?
02:25:43 <coppro> I wouldn't be confident in any plan where some of the details are sketchy unless it ends in profit
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02:28:15 <oerjan> given this is EY we have to be very careful how we define profit
02:28:28 <oerjan> lest we end up turned into dollar bills
02:28:45 <elliott> in oerjan's universe, EY is an unfriendly AI
02:28:47 <coppro> don't turned me into a dollar bill
02:28:53 <elliott> in the everyday sense of unfriendly, perhaps :D
02:29:14 <oerjan> elliott: IT'S THE OBVIOUS EXPLANATION
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02:48:12 <elliott> The original name, Pokemon, stands for "POK erythroid myeloid ontogenic factor" and is most likely a backronym of the Pokémon media franchise. Nintendo subsidiary Pokémon USA, not wanting the bad press inherent with its trademark sharing a name with a cancer-causing gene, threatened the center with legal action in December 2005, at which point MSKCC decided to rename it as Zbtb7.[3]
02:52:40 <Sgeo> Why hasn't everyone switched to the way PicoLisp does parens?
02:52:46 <Sgeo> It's... awesome
02:58:52 <Gregor> elliott: POKEMON GIVES YOU CANCER
03:04:28 <elliott> I'll image *your* T cancer.
03:04:45 <elliott> Sgeo: Uhh, what way of doing parens?
03:04:51 <coppro> but I'm not sure if my girlfriend will be happy
03:04:54 <Gregor> Sgeo: Given a quick look through the PicoLisp tutorial, I s--- damn, elliott got there first :P
03:05:03 <elliott> Maybe he means the ] closing thing that nobody uses.
03:05:10 <Sgeo> elliott, spacing out ) that close ( that are not on the line with )
03:05:47 <elliott> Sgeo: That's not awesome, that's stupid, and I haven't seen it in any example code :P
03:05:57 <elliott> The ONLY way that could be awesome is if... no, there is no way. Indentation shows you the structure of Lisp programs.
03:06:14 <elliott> If you are looking at the stack of closing parens to make sense of some code either the code is doing something wrong or, far more likely, you're doing something very, very wrong.
03:06:32 <Gregor> (Namely, using a Lisp-family language)
03:06:36 <Sgeo> https://github.com/evanrmurphy/PicoLisp/blob/master/lib/prof.l
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03:07:56 <elliott_> Sgeo: One, that's not the official PicoLisp distribution.
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03:08:09 <elliott_> Two, the only way that could help you read the code is if you're READING THE CODE COMPLETELY WRONGLY and inefficiently.
03:08:28 <elliott_> Pretend the parens aren't there. Heck, replace the parens with spaces. If you can't still make sense of the code, you cannot read Lisp.
03:08:41 <Sgeo> elliott_, my copy of the official PicoLisp distribution looks the same
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03:09:26 <elliott> Sgeo: I was merely questioning why you linked to it.
03:09:31 <elliott> Anyway, my second point is the relevant one.
03:09:54 <Sgeo> Well, it helps differentiate parens closing of ( on the same line, so it may be minorly helpful
03:10:34 <Sgeo> (+ (+ (+ (+ (+ 1 2) 3) 4) 5))))))
03:10:36 <elliott> Sgeo: I don't think you understand.
03:10:39 <elliott> *You do not look at the parens.*
03:11:08 <Sgeo> You kind of have to when some complex code is on one line, I'd think
03:11:34 <elliott> In fact Lispers generally set their parens to almost white.
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03:30:28 <elliott> oerjan: btw it seems i misremember: you are the one who told _me_ about superstrict
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03:32:28 <elliott> oerjan: regardless, it is cool :)
03:48:24 <Sgeo> When this article in defense of newlisp says that things are passed by-value.. could it possibly mean "newLisp _simulates_ passing things by value"?
03:48:49 <Sgeo> (I should stop trying to defend idiots, to paraphrase elliott)
03:49:59 <Sgeo> "There are no threads. Writing safe, parallel code is simple through actors and spawn/sync because newLISP simply forks itself. Its modest stature makes this a fairly cheap operation, allowing the OS to handle scheduling and memory-protection. Try forking a JVM "
03:50:24 <Sgeo> Does this person not under... I don't get it. He thinks the reason Clojure doesn't use the actor model is because... it's on the JVM?
03:51:24 <Sgeo> I'm going to chalk this up to an idiot blog post, and not slam all of newLisp for it, I think
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04:01:51 <elliott> 03:49:59: <Sgeo> "There are no threads. Writing safe, parallel code is simple through actors and spawn/sync because newLISP simply forks itself. Its modest stature makes this a fairly cheap operation, allowing the OS to handle scheduling and memory-protection. Try forking a JVM� "
04:01:51 <elliott> 03:50:24: <Sgeo> Does this person not under... I don't get it. He thinks the reason Clojure doesn't use the actor model is because... it's on the JVM?
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04:02:13 <elliott> I give up, I need a log source with my ignores built in.
04:04:06 <Sgeo> "allowing the OS to handle scheduling and memory-protection"
04:04:10 <Sgeo> I think I missed that
04:26:38 <elliott> wow: :leguin.freenode.net NOTICE * :*** Your hostname is too long, ignoring hostname
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04:30:02 <zeptobot> -> PRIVMSG #esoteric : ! AttributeError: 'Symbol' object has no attribute 'apply'
04:31:29 <zeptobot> -> PRIVMSG #esoteric : ! AttributeError: 'Symbol' object has no attribute 'car'
04:31:38 <zeptobot> -> PRIVMSG #esoteric : ! TypeError: 'Symbol' object is not callable
04:32:52 <monqy> I've never seen a bot forget where it put its PRIVMSG before
04:33:58 <elliott> I think that's Python's IO buffering.
04:34:04 <elliott> ^ a gets printed, _then_ b gets evaluated
04:34:15 <elliott> since b exception'd, it goes to print the exception...
04:34:18 <elliott> but it's already printed the start
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04:35:48 <zeptobot> ! NameError: global name 'List' is not defined
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04:36:13 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'NilClass' object has no attribute 'apply'
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04:37:03 <elliott> Sgeo should be taking more of an interest in my exciting new lisp.
04:37:48 <Sgeo> : (show quote)
04:38:15 <Sgeo> That puts me in mind of Ruby
04:38:37 <elliott> Sgeo: what do you want show to do?
04:38:56 <elliott> NilClass shares a name with Ruby, but actually it's just the class of ()
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04:39:09 <elliott> yes, it's called zepto. (after picolisp, obviously.)
04:39:59 <elliott> probably string-symbols should quote themselves...
04:40:25 <Sgeo> I think I really like picolis
04:41:00 <elliott> : (''''''''''''''"x a b" 3)
04:41:00 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'bind'
04:41:43 <elliott> : (() "I can put anything here I want at all." (''''''''''''''"x a b" 3))
04:43:27 <elliott> Sgeo: well, at least PicoLisp will be the first good language you like.
04:43:44 <Sgeo> elliott, so, Smalltalk sucks, in your opinion?
04:44:06 <elliott> ok, second. maybe third. (Factor is alright)
04:44:21 <elliott> Smalltalk has some pretty bad deficiencies, though. like classes.
04:44:52 <Sgeo> Picolisp has classes. Although I think they're not mandatory or something (still don't quite understand it)
04:45:25 <monqy> I should learn more languages sometime
04:47:15 <zeptobot> ! ParseFail: Invalid character )
04:47:20 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'bind'
04:47:31 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'bind'
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04:48:19 <elliott> ok why on earth won't that evaluate...
04:48:30 <elliott> hmm, oh, i think i broke something somehow?
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04:54:29 <monqy> zeptolisp looks confusing :(
04:55:09 <monqy> what is it doing with those strings
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04:55:35 <elliott> monqy: those aren't strings, just symbols
04:55:40 <elliott> "foo bar" is like |foo bar|
04:55:51 <elliott> I was just testing the display of string escapes
04:55:59 <elliott> : '"hello world! \"this is a test\""
04:55:59 <zeptobot> -> "hello world! \"this is a test\""
05:01:39 <elliott> monqy: it's not confusing, it does not even have variables!
05:01:44 <elliott> well it does, but they're all predefined.
05:02:21 <elliott> do i maintain nil's traditional hermaphrodite nature or just get rid of the nil symbol altogether...
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05:14:46 <Sgeo> Why do so many languages integrate a prolog-like?
05:16:09 <elliott> Sgeo: because prolog is awesome.
05:16:18 <elliott> I know of... two environments with Prolog databases.
05:16:26 <elliott> Franz Allegro Common Lisp, and PicoLisp.
05:16:26 <Sgeo> PicoLisp, Racket
05:17:45 <elliott> Anyway, Prolog databases are the Lisp of databases. So I'm not surprised.
05:17:48 <elliott> The two integrate well, too.
05:20:17 <elliott> Racket's Datalog support doesn't look very good as far as actual database usage goes.
05:23:37 <Sgeo> Picolisp's object system seems very.. prototype-ish, even if it's not usually used that way
05:26:13 <Sgeo> Picolisp seems to be lacking in any namespacing
05:26:23 <Sgeo> Erm, for public APIs, I mean
05:26:36 <elliott> Namespacing does not seem to gel with PicoLisp's philosophy.
05:39:53 <elliott> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Funciton oh gosh this is new
05:43:06 <Sgeo> Ooh, infinite-sized negative numbers
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05:58:17 <elliott> 05:43:06: <Sgeo> Ooh, infinite-sized negative numbers
05:58:24 <elliott> Infinite-sized as in arbitrary-precision.
05:58:29 <elliott> -58346834653874568736458236589346238462734623746234 ;; omg infinite!
05:58:59 <Sgeo> More as in, the spec describes them as having an infinite amount of 1 bits
06:01:25 <elliott> That's just how two's complement works.
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06:17:06 <Ilari> Heh... Someone should have submitted some really whacky layer 4 protcol as April Fools RFC.
06:18:47 <Ilari> (Including stuff like built-in DH / encryption / authentication, textual service names, etc...)
06:25:06 <Ilari> Oh, and bonus points for making any form of port translation impossible.
06:30:35 <elliott> because his IP has :s in it
06:30:38 <elliott> Ilari: I hope you feel bad.
06:30:47 <elliott> THIS IS WHY IPv6 IS EVIL >:D
06:31:50 <elliott> :Ilari!~user@2002:5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Breaks it how?
06:31:55 <elliott> What zeptobot thinks the message text is:
06:31:57 <elliott> 5870:3714::1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Breaks it how?
06:32:01 <elliott> It just looks for the second : :-)
06:32:08 <elliott> I'll make it look for " :" instead.
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06:34:07 <elliott> Scott Adams, creator of Dilbert: "The reality is that women are treated differently by society for exactly the same reason that children and the mentally handicapped are treated differently. It’s just easier this way for everyone."
06:34:23 <elliott> This is the most ridiculous, sexist, incoherent piece of shit post I have ever read. Well, apart from so many other posts.
06:35:11 <fizzie> I guess technically the server could send a single-word PRIVMSG body without the :, legally. Not that I think any do.
06:35:58 <elliott> fizzie: Yah, but zeptobot is a ``grosse five-minute hacke''.
06:36:04 <elliott> It numbers thirty~one lines.
06:36:17 <elliott> (Zepto itself is longer, of course. And woefully incomplete.)
06:36:28 <elliott> (But still short! Dynamic binding = SHORT INTERPRETER.)
06:43:47 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/R7rT6.jpg Boats "not laser-proof", says Navy
06:47:40 <olsner> hmm, oerjan is gone, he seemed to have questions about my experiment
06:47:50 <olsner> elliott: any idea about the 10% off thing?
06:48:02 <elliott> olsner: could you show your compiler?
06:48:12 <elliott> olsner: Is it just a constant offset apart from the first character?
06:48:17 <elliott> that is, what characters are not just ten off?
06:48:37 <olsner> elliott: space is 3 off and ends up as 29 instead of 32
06:48:48 <olsner> and the initial H is 7 off (72-7=65=A)
06:49:07 <elliott> how does your compiler encode the output internally? it outputs as bits, right?
06:49:13 <elliott> is that how the original Thue program processed things?
06:49:23 <elliott> do you apply Thue rules at random, or is there a defined order?
06:50:42 <olsner> yes, the thue interpreter outputs in bits and seems to store bits internally too
06:50:54 <olsner> gah, the BF interpreter in Thue, that is
06:51:01 <olsner> there is no Thue interpreter, it's compiled :P
06:52:01 <elliott> sorry if i'm being impatient, I haven't slept so my perception of time is screwy. i'm not joking
06:52:26 <olsner> rules are applied in the order they appear in the source file, which match of the string gets replaced depends on the regexps used by mod_rewrite
06:52:46 <elliott> olsner: does the Python interpreter follow the same ordering? Perhaps it is a buggy program that relies on a certain kind of ordering.
06:53:11 <elliott> olsner: If you could somehow make the Python program match that second behaviour by choosing a random match, that might help.
06:53:19 <elliott> Or another interpreter of your choice, of ocurse.
06:53:51 <elliott> olsner: I would also try: a program that outputs every byte.
06:54:19 <elliott> Then see if perhaps the same characters get messed up, etc.
06:54:47 <Lymia> Apparently in Java, super.a() and a() are not the same.
06:54:55 <Lymia> That is, if you don't override a()
06:55:22 <Lymia> If you have class A that defines a method a(), and a class B that extends it.
06:55:25 <Lymia> B can call super.a();
06:55:27 <elliott> Java is usually incredibly boring to the point of the kind of insanity you get from being overly sane, but this doesn't sound characteristic...
06:55:36 <elliott> Lymia: Can't it call a() too?
06:55:51 <Lymia> B has a method b() that calls super.a();
06:56:07 <Lymia> If a class C overrides B, and overrides a(), then a call to C.b() calls A.a() instead of C.a()
06:56:17 <Lymia> If B used a() instead, this dosn't occur.
06:56:29 <elliott> That... almost makes sense.
06:56:35 <Lymia> I'm not entirely sure if this is reasonable behavior.
06:56:42 <elliott> "super" is statically (lexically) resolved to the superclass of the current (lexical) class.
06:57:05 <elliott> Whereas "a()" is always relative to "this", which is not lexical at all, of course.
06:57:17 <elliott> Lymia: I think it makes sense... it is quite unintuitive though.
06:57:20 <Lymia> I can see this causing some issues to people not exactly aware of it.
06:57:26 <elliott> Lymia: In my opinion, the only place super.x() should be allowed is in an overriding of x.
06:57:31 <elliott> In fact it should probably just be super().
06:57:42 <elliott> Otherwise there's little (no?) reason to call it.
06:57:52 <Lymia> It makes sense, but.... ick.
06:57:56 <Lymia> I can see this causing obscure bugs.
06:58:07 <elliott> If you follow the rule of not using super.x() anywhere but in an overriding x(), no problem! 8D
06:58:13 <Lymia> "Let's add super in front of everything to make it clearer!"
06:58:18 <Lymia> "Why is the program breakkinngg!"
06:58:23 <elliott> It sounds like there is another bug at work here: Idiots!
06:58:58 <fizzie> "super.x" is defined in the spec to be equivalent to "((S)this).x", where S is the direct superclass.
06:58:59 <olsner> the python interpreter selects a random match (which is probably why it's so slow), so I believe this program is supposed to work with any ordering
06:59:09 <Lymia> Are there any Java shops with a policy to the effect of "calls to the superclass must be proceeded with a super."
06:59:28 <elliott> Lymia: For all stupid policies X there is a Java shop with policy X.
06:59:37 <Lymia> fizzie, ((S)this).a() still calls a() if a() is overridden in a subclass, I believe.
06:59:42 <elliott> Including the policy "rape by the Dear Leader is to take place on Easter only when a chicken is not engaged".
06:59:50 <elliott> (In fact 90% of Java shops have this policy.)
07:00:04 <elliott> Lymia: Lack of sleep is a CREATIVE AID, dammit, not an impediment to sanity.
07:00:16 <elliott> <Lymia> fizzie, ((S)this).a() still calls a() if a() is overridden in a subclass, I believe.
07:00:29 <elliott> If it's defined by the spec to be equivalent to super.a() (well, other way around), this is either false or an implementation bug.
07:00:31 <Lymia> Still calls a() in the subclass.
07:00:34 <Sgeo> For a short period of time, in my C++ class, I had a self-imposed policy of always using this->
07:00:37 <fizzie> Lymia: Since "super.x()" is literally defined to be "((S)this).x()", I find that hard to believe. (Well, at least assuming your earlier statement was true.)
07:00:48 <elliott> olsner: well, run .+[.+] to see what happens.
07:01:02 <fizzie> "Suppose that a field access expression super.name appears within class C, and the immediate superclass of C is class S. Then super.name is treated exactly as if it had been the expression ((S)this).name; thus, it refers to the field named name of the current object, but with the current object viewed as an instance of the superclass. Thus it can access the field named name that is visible in class S, even if that field is hidden by a declaration of a field nam
07:01:14 <elliott> fizzie: It is not inconceivable that such a cast would be inefficient with the standard Java implementation and so super is special-case optimised in a way that introduces this "bug".
07:01:21 <elliott> But I doubt it; this is a pretty major semantic thing.
07:02:16 <Lymia> ((S)this).a() != super.a()
07:02:16 <fizzie> Oh, that was about field access.
07:02:37 <elliott> fizzie... says something authoritative...
07:02:41 <elliott> and is... wrong... mind... imploding...
07:02:58 <fizzie> I've quoted the wrong bits of spec earlier too.
07:03:29 <elliott> fizzie: But if you said something about R5RS... there's no way that would be false, right?
07:03:46 <elliott> fizzie: Quick! How does DYNAMIC-WIND interact with CALL-WITH-CURRENT-CONTINUATION?
07:03:46 <olsner> hmm, if I change that to have an extra + first, it prints 0, 1, 2, ...
07:03:57 <elliott> olsner: an extra + first? what...
07:04:01 <olsner> but as given, it prints 1, 2, ...
07:04:03 <elliott> fizzie: it should print 0 without the extra plus first
07:04:21 <elliott> same in python interp? or different?
07:04:38 <elliott> olsner: are you sure you have the right source with the right target?
07:04:51 <elliott> could it turn into aa::=d, c::=b somehow?o
07:05:38 <olsner> I doubt it could confuse the rules since they're processed line by line
07:06:14 <elliott> olsner: can you show your compiler? :P
07:06:18 <elliott> i doubt i will understand it
07:07:23 <Lymia> I guess the super.a() behavior could be useful to stop overly clever malicious code from manipulating the behavior of a final method.
07:07:29 <olsner> elliott: http://rewrite.olsner.se/thuerewrite.sed
07:07:35 <elliott> Lymia: that thinking is dangerous Javathought
07:07:48 <elliott> Lymia: this idea that all your classes are "under attack" and you need to lock everything away so it isn't "maliciously broken"
07:07:51 <olsner> it's only 6 lines, how hard could it be :P
07:08:03 <elliott> Your code breaks if a moron does something stupid, and no amount of lockdown will stop that :)
07:08:04 <Lymia> I said that because that's what I'm doing right now.
07:08:09 <Lymia> I'm using LWJGL's AWTGLCanvas.
07:08:19 <elliott> Well, final methods are a bad idea in general.
07:08:39 <Lymia> It's paint(Graphics) method is final, so I can't block it from executing, once I call it to make it create it's context.
07:08:49 <Lymia> It has a line if(!isDisplayable()) return;
07:08:52 <elliott> As are protected methods (aka "slightly less convenient to access public methods"). Private methods might not be bad, but I find that usually people get around it if you make one.
07:08:57 <olsner> elliott: http://rewrite.olsner.se/bf.conf for what the output of that sed script gets pasted into
07:08:58 <elliott> I've used a private method on Python's thread class before.
07:09:26 <elliott> olsner: are you sure you escape enough?
07:09:33 <Lymia> So I'm going to check if AWTGLCanvas is calling isDisplayable from it's paint method, and if it is, return false.
07:09:39 <Lymia> Otherwise, return super.isDisplayable().
07:09:47 <elliott> olsner: can you just replace every x with \x? or i guess it might process some escapes...
07:10:06 <olsner> I think both insufficient/extraneous escaping in that script, and interactions with urlencoding can be at play here
07:10:22 <Lymia> elliott, that works too.
07:10:29 <olsner> dunno if replacing in what ends up in the right-hand part of the output rules is a good idea for instance
07:10:30 <elliott> olsner: can you write 32 +s and then a few dots to check that spaces always get fucked up in the same way?
07:10:34 <elliott> otherwise i'll turn to heavy drink
07:10:48 <elliott> <olsner> dunno if replacing in what ends up in the right-hand part of the output rules is a good idea for instance
07:11:34 <olsner> I do escaping on the whole lines in the thue program, then some of that escaped text ends up in the 'b' part of "RewriteRule a b"
07:11:55 <Lymia> elliott, so, yeah.
07:11:58 <Lymia> It's me being malicious.
07:12:07 <elliott> Lymia: we're all malicious here.
07:12:27 <elliott> who is a robot and is prevented from doing wrong by strong laws
07:12:34 <elliott> (this is my current theory and i am sticking with it)
07:12:43 <Lymia> I was wondering if the API could be modified in the future without changing behavior (for the most part) to prevent.. tricks like this.
07:12:48 <elliott> olsner: I think there's an [x] flag you can set for some x that prevents substitutions in the RHS
07:12:53 <elliott> you are at least escaping $ and the like, right?
07:14:22 <elliott> Lymia: My biased opinion is that attempts to stop people doing things are fruitless, and will only either exasperate them because they *could* do something had you not prevented it, or cause them to work around or subvert it, in a really ugly manner. (That is, modulo trust. If a component A doesn't trust a component B, it's of course fine for A to be strict about what B can do. So I'm not saying all computer security is useless, just that libraries
07:14:22 <elliott> meworks trying to stop the user doing things is generally a waste of time.)
07:15:04 <Lymia> My second option would be reflection abuse, and my third option would be manually loading the library to bypass the Sealed: line.
07:15:05 <olsner> haha, I think the first character of the program is getting cut off
07:15:18 <Lymia> That's about right.
07:15:24 <elliott> olsner: well that would explain the 0,1,... vs. 1,2,... thing :)
07:16:23 <fizzie> Is there some particular reason you don't want that paint() called?
07:16:24 <olsner> and also the hello world, probably... it starts with 10 or so pluses and I guess 10 is then multiplied with other things to produce the characters
07:16:24 <elliott> Lymia: yeah, languages with full reflection APIs and otherwise strong access controls tend to invite ... particularly perverse ways to work around such things
07:16:40 <olsner> that turns into 9*whatever, and the 10% bug happens
07:16:51 <Lymia> elliott, you could always pull out the ASM library~
07:17:40 <fizzie> You could always just s/final//g in the lwjgl sources; it's not like you wouldn't have to distribute your own copy anyway, since it's in no way standard.
07:17:49 <elliott> Lymia: Or e.g. saw my head off, take a bath in molten lava, drink pure acid, crush my genitalia, open up my chest, rip out my heart, and stop on it...
07:18:04 <elliott> All things more pleasurable than pulling out the ASM library for that purpose!
07:18:19 <Lymia> Subverting things is more fun.
07:18:24 <elliott> fizzie: Inspired by "Wikileaks To Leak 5000 Open Source Java Projects With All That Private/Final Bullshit Removed"?
07:18:45 <fizzie> Perhaps unconsciously.
07:18:49 <fizzie> I remember seeing that.
07:26:47 <fizzie> Oh, there's the proper bit: "15.12.4.4 Locate Method to Invoke -- If the invocation mode is interface or virtual, then S is initially the actual run-time class R of the target object. -- If the invocation mode is super, then S is initially the qualifying type of the method invocation."
07:27:34 <fizzie> So having the super. in there actually changes the "invocation mode" flag associated with the call at compile time.
07:27:46 <elliott> Java: More of a mess than Fythe!
07:28:06 <monqy> am I just tired or is java really confusing
07:28:23 <elliott> I'm even more tired (probably), but yes, pretty sure it's just confusing
07:29:14 <oklopol> i had this dream where an old friend tattooed ears to my back
07:30:20 <elliott> or just tattoos that look like ears
07:30:29 <oklopol> and i carried the last eggs of some almost extinct fish to some sorta dressing room and vomited everywhere
07:30:51 <monqy> sounds like a good dream I would like to have
07:31:00 <oklopol> they were tiny little tattoos of green ears
07:31:16 <elliott> <oklopol> and i carried the last eggs of some almost extinct fish to some sorta dressing room and vomited everywhere
07:31:21 <elliott> i can see this being in an arty kind of film
07:31:43 <elliott> The Rescuing of the Fish [Speciesnamehere]
07:31:59 <elliott> after you vomit it's just still for like 20 seconds and then it just fades out to credits, is this correct oklopol?
07:32:03 <elliott> maybe i should direct this.
07:32:14 <oklopol> i also looked in the mirror and looked like jabba the hutt
07:32:33 <elliott> that can be in the film too.
07:32:40 <elliott> except changed slightly to avoid infringement.
07:33:02 <oklopol> i don't know if i was saving the fish or what, i was running away from someone and i just had to hide the eggs from them
07:33:17 <elliott> you are. that is the plot.
07:33:20 <oklopol> but the reason i vomited them in the dressing room was that i thought it'd be a funny prank
07:33:34 <elliott> like, the eggs were in your mouth?
07:33:39 <oklopol> i carried them in my mouth
07:33:42 <elliott> this just keeps getting better and better
07:33:45 <oklopol> i had to swim for miles you see
07:33:55 <elliott> so who was the person you were running away from
07:34:03 <elliott> as some reviewers have taken to calling it
07:35:23 <elliott> monqy: can you fund this film please
07:35:42 <elliott> it will be arty, i am sure it will premier in cannes or somewhere else sufficiently snobbish
07:35:59 <oklopol> i don't know, up to the point just before i descended from the mountain to the shore it was some sort of video game
07:36:18 <elliott> that would make really good visual
07:36:23 <elliott> had a camera zoomed waay out
07:36:36 <oklopol> one interesting thing about my dreams is when bad things happen i often go "nah i'd prefer that not happen" and rewind time, but not realize it's a dream
07:36:36 <elliott> so we could see you running from the top of the mountain to the shore without the camera moving at all
07:36:43 <monqy> I've only watched bad movies about video game. I enjoyed every second of it.
07:36:51 <elliott> `addquote <monqy> I've only watched bad movies about video game. I enjoyed every second of it.
07:36:54 <HackEgo> 364) <monqy> I've only watched bad movies about video game. I enjoyed every second of it.
07:38:06 <oklopol> also i tried to convince my dad that i can do a second jump while in midair
07:38:16 <elliott> can you do a wall jump too
07:38:35 <elliott> oklopol: where you jump up, then hit off a wall
07:38:38 <elliott> and that ELEVATES YOU HIGHER
07:38:49 <elliott> so if you double jump, and then kick of a wall, that's three jumps for the price of one!
07:39:13 <monqy> what if you squat before jumping? does that make you go higher
07:39:36 <monqy> is running before backflipping better before normal backflipping? I can't recall
07:39:43 <elliott> i have pretty much internalised ridiculous jumps from super mario galaxy, which has like
07:39:48 <elliott> i kid, it's actually more like four.
07:39:53 <oklopol> that one finnish parkour guy did this fun thing where he ran two steps up a wall and then one step along the ceiling
07:39:53 <elliott> but i'm pretty sure you can do them all together
07:40:05 <elliott> crouch, backflip, hit off a wall, and then spin
07:40:17 <elliott> congratulations, in one jump you have scaled an entire wall
07:41:27 <oklopol> one of my recurring dreams is that when i jump, i don't have to come down, i can just float 30cm above the floor forever
07:42:04 <oklopol> and then there's the slightly annoying one where suddenly, i start rolling forward and i can't stop
07:42:28 <elliott> in lucid dreams the best i've managed so far is a kind of
07:42:32 <oklopol> like i can be having some great sex dream or whatever and then suddenly "oh god not this again"
07:42:53 <elliott> like, i usually start dreaming in my bedroom when i'm going to be lucid for some reason, so as soon as i reality check
07:42:57 <oklopol> (i go "not this again" but not necessarily realize it's a dream)
07:43:05 <elliott> i open the window (ok i could probably skip that and just go through it but i'm cautious)
07:43:17 <elliott> I just fall slowly enough that it doesn't hurt
07:43:28 <elliott> and then I can jump slightly higher than normal and glide a tiny bit but it's still basically a slow fall
07:43:43 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> and then there's the slightly annoying one where suddenly, i start rolling forward and i can't stop <oklopol> like i can be having some great sex dream or whatever and then suddenly "oh god not this again" <oklopol> (i go "not this again" but not necessarily realize it's a dream)
07:43:45 <HackEgo> 365) <oklopol> and then there's the slightly annoying one where suddenly, i start rolling forward and i can't stop <oklopol> like i can be having some great sex dream or whatever and then suddenly "oh god not this again" <oklopol> (i go "not this again" but not necessarily realize it's a dream)
07:44:32 <oklopol> nowadays, i can pretty much stop it from happening
07:44:37 <oklopol> but it takes a lot of effort
07:44:47 <monqy> solution: have great sex dreams
07:45:07 <oklopol> same for suddenly starting to fly upwards
07:45:26 <oklopol> if i really concentrate, i can lower myself down and keep myself there
07:45:34 <oklopol> otherwise i just keep ascending
07:46:04 <elliott> honestly just had this thought:
07:46:13 <elliott> "oklopol sounds like a really awesome dream guy, i should have a dream with him sometime"
07:46:26 <elliott> my brain has now moved itself to a new universe which is ten times as awesome as this universe because things like that are possible
07:46:32 <elliott> unfortunately my body is still in this universe
07:46:40 <monqy> I want to go to that universe
07:46:59 <elliott> we can all go there together
07:47:12 <elliott> (the transition will be absolutely unobservable and have no effects from our point of view)
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08:26:19 <elliott> http://www.somethingstore.com/ omg.
08:26:34 <elliott> never have i felt more of a consumerist than when i realised how gleefully i reacted to this concept.
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08:29:46 <elliott> I think Lisp is the language which most minimises irritation from lack of sleep.
08:30:04 <elliott> It should therefore be the first choice of regular takers of all-nighters worldwide.
08:31:20 <monqy> any particular dialect?
08:32:00 <elliott> I haven't thought that far yet, this is just rampant speculation after I got a Grand Idea (not all that grand) and my brain immediately ruled out every language that isn't Lisp for reasons of sheer tedium like having to remember syntax of any kind.
08:32:47 <elliott> I don't think Common Lisp or Scheme would fit the bill, though; Common Lisp because of the amount of what is essentially arcana to remember, and Scheme for its lovable but irritating language-pedanticism that surfaces in mild verbosity.
08:32:56 <elliott> (Not that I have anything against Scheme, or much against Common Lisp.)
08:33:22 <elliott> (I am speaking purely from the perspective of someone who notices that they jumped right to Lisp as an implementation language when sleep-deprived, despite this being a rare occurrence when not so afflicted.)
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08:48:20 <elliott> is funghi actually a word thing
08:48:25 <elliott> also, you're always batman, ph.
08:49:07 <fizzie> fungot: What do you know about funghi?
08:49:08 <fungot> fizzie: because then your yearning to fnord would be good though
08:49:26 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott: well, it's an improvement on gay vampire, I suppose.
08:49:30 <elliott> funghi is not a word Phantom_Hoover
08:49:38 <elliott> Definitions of funghi on the Web:
08:49:38 <elliott> Mushrooms. See “Mushrooms and Truffles” chapter.
08:49:38 <elliott> www.italianculinaryfoundation.com/glossary/d-f.shtml
08:49:51 <elliott> ONLY THE ITALIAN CULINARY FOUNDATION AGREES WITH YOU PHANTOM HOOVER
08:50:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, err, you realise Batman is a gay vampire, right?
08:50:35 <elliott> I can think of no things that are wrong things in that thing that is a theory.
08:51:03 <elliott> Shit, *I* would be happy being a gay vampire if it meant I was Batman and Batman was a gay vampire.
08:51:33 <Phantom_Hoover> 07:39:43: <elliott> i have pretty much internalised ridiculous jumps from super mario galaxy, which has like
08:51:57 <elliott> it *does* have ridiculous jumps though!
08:52:11 <elliott> AND DON'T BE TALKIN' LIKE THAT TO ME WHIPPERSNAPPER
08:52:16 <elliott> YOU DON'T KNOW THE HORRORS OF LUIGI'S PURPLE COINS
08:52:30 <elliott> BUT SHUT UP 100% COMPLETION ON 1 AND 2 SO CLEARLY I KNOW EVERYTHING
08:53:02 <elliott> monqy knows what he's talking about.
08:53:55 <elliott> ok he's passed the Incredibly Irritating Fake Person Who Clogs the Channel test, I think we can all stop fooling monqy now
08:53:59 -!- elliott has changed nick to A_Robertson.
08:55:06 <Ilari> Gobal burnrate currently: 47 320 512 addresses (2.8205 blocks) per 30 days. Let's see how that figure evolves. :-)
08:55:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to A_McCuil.
08:55:18 <A_Robertson> What a happy channel this is free from such ghastly yet ultimately fictional people called elliott
08:55:27 <A_Robertson> A_McCuil: How is that new research paper going
08:55:37 <A_Robertson> Have you formatted all the references yet?
08:56:01 <A_Robertson> I have been attempting to write a program to automate that process for you recently. I wanted to keep it as a joyful surprise for you when I finished.
08:56:09 <A_Robertson> However I have run into some stumbling blocks, so it may be a short while.
08:56:15 <A_Robertson> Oh dear, it appears our messages have become entangled.
08:56:27 <A_McCuil> It is a blight upon the world.
08:56:49 <A_Robertson> And now over to our Finnish correspondent. Mr. Ilari, what is the current status of Internet Protocol 4 depletion, if you please?
08:57:18 <A_Robertson> I am asking this question because in this universe we have IPv4 depletion reports instead of weather reports like all decent societies. I wonder why I am commenting on a thing so obvious!
08:57:25 <A_Robertson> What kind of society would have weather reports? The mind boggles.
09:00:58 <A_McCuil> Perhaps one in which there is imminent weather depletion?
09:01:27 <A_Robertson> Lo! I have produced a crude textologic representation of a face in a contorted expression of painful laughter!
09:01:32 <A_Robertson> That is how merrisome I found your remark.
09:01:34 <A_McCuil> Ah, we have moved onto mathematics, no?
09:02:01 <A_Robertson> Verily it can indeed be interpreted twofold: as such an icon, and as a mathematical formula!
09:03:09 <A_McCuil> Perhaps it refers to the result of D subtracted from X?
09:03:35 <A_McCuil> Or, in the world of those who abuse notation, the set X sans all members of D.
09:04:02 <A_Robertson> But we do not live in a world where people abuse notation!
09:04:11 <A_Robertson> This is thanks to our stringent policy of beheadings for all those who abuse notation.
09:04:19 <A_Robertson> Sadly, for this, our world lacks advanced mathematics of any kind.
09:04:55 <A_McCuil> Perhaps some kind of automated calligraphy system could be utilitous?
09:05:44 -!- A_Robertson has changed nick to elliott.
09:05:50 <elliott> This has officially worn thin :P
09:07:04 <elliott> I AM TRAPPED ... IN ANOTHER UNIVERSE!
09:07:07 -!- A_McCuil has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
09:07:25 <elliott> Let us pretend as if nothing has happened, and act exactly like the inhabitants of this world do.
09:07:30 <elliott> what are the haps my friends
09:08:21 <monqy> oh wait no that's how the haps are
09:08:27 <monqy> not sure what they are, at all
09:09:30 <fizzie> I think it's short for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplosporidia
09:14:43 <Phantom_Hoover> LIGHT WORK, ABILITY TO DEACTIVATE HIGHER COGNITIVE FUNCTIONS REQUIRED.
09:14:50 <elliott> yes, we have us two, now we need a third stooge so we can be the three stooges
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10:33:43 <elliott> "Other users are also experiencing difficulties connecting to this site, so you may have to wait a few minutes." --Chrome
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11:26:27 <elliott> Gah, I need a bigger hard disk.
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12:37:31 <tswett> adiabatic adiabatic adiabatic
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13:23:26 <Gregor> CS Colloquia mailing list sez: Dr. Alicja Ziemienowicz from the University of Lethbridge will be giving a seminar entitled: A new method of transgene delivery to monocot plants (Abstract below)
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13:39:40 <Vorpal> Gregor, what is "monocot plants"
13:40:28 <Vorpal> Gregor, actually, what the heck does the title mean? Something about genetic engineering I guess. But I know too little of that field to figure out anything further than that
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14:10:41 <elliott> POLL: Is the wiki's logo's name "threelimes", "trilime", or something else entirely?
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14:34:09 <Gregor> gmake should implement a "live" mode that will watch all the files make knows about and rebuild whenever one of them changes.
14:37:12 <Vorpal> Gregor, what would happen if a file changed during the rebuild?
14:37:37 <Gregor> Vorpal: Is it really so difficult to imagine? Let the rebuild continue (or fail), then do it again when it's done.
14:38:08 <Vorpal> Gregor, and what if a file is removed or added, and some sort of wildcard is used in the Makefile (perfectly possible)
14:38:40 <Gregor> All perfectly and easily solvable, there's no reason why you can't have an implicit dep on a directory.
14:39:08 <Gregor> Although things like */*/*.c could provide a bit of a problem :P
14:39:42 <Gregor> It's always possible to be quite conservative and totally regenerate all the glob->list mappings whenever anything changes at all.
14:40:10 <Gregor> (Also, globs in Makefiles are the root of all evil)
14:40:19 <elliott> *root of all lazy productivity
14:40:47 <Gregor> elliott: YOUR MOM IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL
14:40:54 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah that's right. You are the embodiment of evil.
14:41:52 <Vorpal> speaking of which, would it be possible to create a make target that depended recursively on a directory. A trivial example might be make zip_up_that_dir
14:42:16 <Vorpal> well rather, make zip_of_that_dir.zip
14:42:44 <Vorpal> actually hm it wouldn't. There would be no way to detect removal of files, right?
14:42:59 <Vorpal> unless that updates the dir timestamp
14:43:16 * elliott just saved the first iteration of a more approachable, styled main page with a more linear reading order to the wiki.
14:43:19 <Vorpal> which it seems do to indeed
14:43:30 <elliott> Ugh, need to disable edit section links
14:44:29 <elliott> The old one sorta got overgrown with my silly injokery, and the table layout was... uhh, an interesting experiment in non-linear navigation, i.e. it was useless.
14:44:38 <Vorpal> elliott, aww some of the stuff went away, like that quote
14:45:38 <Vorpal> elliott, also where is the "Today's day of the day of ..." stuff?
14:46:30 <Vorpal> elliott, but apart from the missing stuff it looks better
14:47:06 <Vorpal> elliott, aww, do it with CSS and <div>s :/
14:47:32 <Gregor> I don't like anything that has /neither/ the day of the day of the day of the day nor the matrix of solidity.
14:49:44 <elliott> Gregor: Realise that people actually land on our main page :P
14:50:12 <elliott> Gregor: I'm all for the creation of an Alternate Universe Cthulhian Horror Main Page.
14:50:51 <Gregor> *watches it be reverted*
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14:53:00 * elliott tries to figure out how to work the community portal in there so we can get endless new generations of irritating newbies flocking here.
14:53:26 <Gregor> Yeah, that's right. I actually ADDED something.
14:53:48 <elliott> I was trying to work in a more NOTICEABLE link :P
14:54:05 <elliott> Rounded corners don't work on Mozilla because they use -moz- properties despite there being CSS3 names for it
14:54:17 <Gregor> God, it's like you lock yourSELF in a matrix of solidity.
14:58:46 * elliott rearranges the community portal article to emphasise IRC over, you know, the totally dead mailing list.
15:02:45 <elliott> Gregor: I will accept that >_>
15:02:57 <elliott> Purely because FUCK SCREEN READERS
15:06:25 <elliott> Kay, community portal now has the IRC channel in big letters :P
15:06:42 <Gregor> Not sure what screen readers has to do with it though ...
15:06:57 <elliott> Gregor: <img src="/w/images/7/75/Trilime.png" alt="Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity." width="135" height="131" longdesc="/wiki/Image:Trilime.png" />
15:07:25 <Gregor> Oh, that's odd, it put it on the alt too.
15:07:36 <elliott> That's what that wiki syntax feature is FOR :P
15:07:38 <Gregor> All I cared about was title=, which it put on the surrounding <a> for whatever reason.
15:07:54 <elliott> Anyway, woo, we have a decent main page now.
15:08:05 <elliott> We can point people at it without pages of clarification as to wtf the wiki is about :P
15:08:42 <Gregor> Massively disappointing.
15:09:11 <Gregor> That was how I checked the date.
15:09:18 <Gregor> That's why I'm the only person who knew when it was March 32nd.
15:09:42 <elliott> Gregor: It was, in fact, March 32nd even four hours into April 2nd.
15:09:56 <Gregor> March 32nd is the longest day of the year.
15:10:13 <elliott> Duh, I know *that*. I did update the main page for it, you know.
15:10:53 <Gregor> We should add a "Did you know?" feature with the only caption under it being "... that this 'did you know' feature will never be updated?"
15:11:33 <elliott> That's the best idea I've heard all day except for all the good ideas I've heard all day.
15:11:57 <elliott> BTW, the lime sidebar was originally gonna have more navigational stuff in it, but it turns out I pretty much covered everything :P
15:12:09 <elliott> So it's just... trilime on lilac.
15:12:59 <elliott> With ugly aliased edges 8D
15:13:35 <Gregor> Those edges are the afterglow of a solidity matrix matrix-matrix multiplication.
15:16:37 <elliott> Gregor: btw I put your logs first in the community portal 8D
15:16:46 <elliott> Mostly because they have the pre-2011 logs without downloading a zip file.
15:17:30 <Gregor> Welcome to the future of tomorrow's yesterday.
15:23:51 <Gregor> Everyone come be locked in ##matrixofsolidity
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15:24:49 <elliott> <elliott> This channel is unofficial lies. #matrixofsolidity is the OFFICIAL matrix of solidity.
15:24:58 <Gregor> PS there is no talking in the matrix of solidity.
15:25:13 <elliott> You mean in the FAKE matrix of solidity.
15:26:32 <elliott> ChanServ is anti-solidity.
15:27:30 <Gregor> I can't decide if I prefer that there's no topic whatsoever.
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15:34:47 <elliott> Gregor: You think the matrix of solidity has this EARTHLY-PLANE concept of a "topic"?
15:35:00 <elliott> There is not "no topic", there is simply the lack of the concept of topic, just as the matrix of solidity lacks ifofgjfdg.
15:35:04 <elliott> All it has is solidity. And matrix.
15:35:29 <Gregor> And a lock, although that's outside the matrix and is what's keeping us in, it's not part of the matrix of solidity proper.
15:35:54 <elliott> Gregor: Uh, no. WE are the lock.
15:36:01 <elliott> We lock ourselves into the matrix of solidity, and cannot escape.
15:36:14 <elliott> Idiot. You are a naive festering moron on these matters. Speak no more!
15:36:19 <elliott> The unenlightened must perish.
15:39:25 -!- Gregor has set topic: Those who do not willingly lock themselves in the #matrixofsolidity (and enjoy it) will be swept away by the Hand of Yahweasel | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Some logs also available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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15:45:24 <elliott> RIP zeptobot some time -- some other time
15:45:53 <Gregor> Speaking of, I think glogbot belongs in #matrixofsolidity
15:46:04 <Gregor> We wouldn't want to miss any of that.
15:46:36 <Gregor> !glogbot_join #matrixofsolidity
15:46:54 <elliott> One day, when all other IRC channels are gone, we will have to join by using cycles as a kind of morse code.
15:47:05 <elliott> Maybe I should ban everyone to prevent that.
15:47:25 <Gregor> But then how are we to be locked in our matrix of solidity?
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15:47:42 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'str'
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15:52:25 <elliott> Gregor: omg #matrixofsolidity is violating freenode policy D:
15:52:34 <elliott> no log link in topic or entry message :D
15:52:47 <Ilari> APNIC: 2k+/48 to Australia, /32 to India, 2x/32 to New Zealand, 1x/32 to Philippines
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15:53:08 <elliott> Gregor: It only listens to #esoteric.
15:54:03 <elliott> So anyway, my wifi keeps crapping out POSSIBLY BECAUSE OF TORRENTS?
15:54:16 <elliott> Vorpal: YOU CANNOT LEAVE YOUR MATRIX OF SOLIDITY
15:54:26 <Vorpal> elliott, nope. I found the key
15:54:34 <Ilari> Apparently that 2k to AU is actually a return of 2k addresses.
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15:54:45 <Vorpal> elliott, did he part too?
15:54:47 <elliott> I hate you so much I'm gonna implement more features
15:54:50 <elliott> That's how much I hate you
15:54:57 <Gregor> elliott: HALLO I WURVE FEKKING UP DER BOTS
15:55:07 <Vorpal> Ilari, wait what? Isn't APNIC out yet?
15:55:10 <elliott> btw, argument/type checking:
15:55:12 <elliott> if not isinstance(x, Pair) or not isinstance(x.car, Symbol) or not isinstance(x.cdr, Pair) or x.cdr.cdr is not NIL:
15:55:12 <elliott> return Symbol.intern('u a fuka')
15:55:14 <Vorpal> Ilari, was it a false alarm yesterday!?
15:56:02 <Ilari> Vorpal: As said, that 2k is apparently a return, not a real allocation.
15:56:45 <Vorpal> Ilari, you Australia returned it to APNIC?
15:58:35 <Ilari> Actually, not a return, a transfer.
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15:59:47 <elliott> Gregor: Nope. Those are SYMBOLS
16:00:03 <elliott> : (def "A wonderful place to live" 'Hell)
16:00:04 <zeptobot> -> "a wonderful place to live"
16:00:08 <elliott> : "A wonderful place to live"
16:00:09 <elliott> : '"A wonderful place to live"
16:00:10 <zeptobot> -> "a wonderful place to live"
16:00:17 <Gregor> : (def def '"Permission denied.")
16:00:17 <Ilari> Apparently APNIC screwed up a bit with those debogon blocks.
16:00:33 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Symbol' object has no attribute 'apply'
16:00:43 <Gregor> lol, not quite what I wanted, but I'll take it :P
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16:00:52 <Gregor> OK, I'm done redefining def :P
16:00:54 <elliott> No error handling yet or anything :P
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16:01:39 -!- zeptobot has joined.
16:02:03 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
16:02:20 -!- zeptobot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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16:04:09 <elliott> Gregor: btw, all this insanity is working towards a function application system that changes if you change map :D
16:04:15 <elliott> Since it'll do (map eval args).
16:04:22 <Ilari> That is, those are real allocated blocks (e.g. the /10 "debogon" block was allocated to India (Block allocated to APNIC in India looked suspicious anyway, as APNIC is based on AU) but for few days had incorrect WHOIS info).
16:04:38 <zeptobot> -> ("like you a ho" "like you a ho" "like you a ho")
16:04:50 <Ilari> So there will be no /10 block return from that.
16:04:51 <elliott> Gregor wasn't expecting that.
16:06:30 -!- zeptobot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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16:06:57 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
16:08:29 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
16:08:36 <elliott> : (id map quote '(42 42 42))
16:08:37 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
16:08:57 <Ilari> ... So APNIC is _really_ out (except for that reserved space inside 103/8 and perhaps some addresses currently too polluted to use).
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16:10:31 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
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16:11:06 -!- zeptobot has joined.
16:11:08 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
16:13:24 -!- zeptobot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:13:45 -!- zeptobot has joined.
16:13:56 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
16:15:34 <zeptobot> ! ParseFail: Expected EOF but got )
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16:16:11 -!- zeptobot has joined.
16:16:36 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
16:16:44 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
16:16:49 <elliott> Gregor: LOOK, YOU CAN BREAK EVERYTHING 8d
16:18:08 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, but apart from the missing stuff it looks better
16:18:25 <elliott> The missing stuff is deliberately omitted due to taking up space that could be used for useful navigational pointers for first-time visitors :P
16:18:28 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, aww, do it with CSS and <div>s :/
16:18:32 <elliott> <div> and <span> are blocked by the server.
16:18:37 <elliott> The best you can do is <p> and <b>.
16:19:06 <elliott> Additionally, the CSS required to get a two-equal-columns layout like that without "display: table" (giving the same result but with even stupider tags and more code) will be blocked by MediaWiki since it involves background images and shit.
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16:26:09 <elliott> TIME TO MAKE MY WIFI DIE AGAIN :DDDDDD
16:28:39 <Vorpal> <elliott> <div> and <span> are blocked by the server. <-- huh, they worked on other wikis I edited on
16:28:49 <Vorpal> well, div at least. Never really tried span
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16:30:51 <Vorpal> elliott, I seem to remember there is a way to have two <div> with style floating, with background colour. And some sort of <hr> with special attributes to make it invisible and also force the placement of those floating things to work. clear: both or something iirc. Not sure if that would work with all the media wiki "fluff" around it
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16:32:19 <elliott> <Vorpal> <elliott> <div> and <span> are blocked by the server. <-- huh, they worked on other wikis I edited on
16:32:25 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, I seem to remember there is a way to have two <div> with style floating, with background colour. And some sort of <hr> with special attributes to make it invisible and also force the placement of those floating things to work. clear: both or something iirc. Not sure if that would work with all the media wiki "fluff" around it
16:32:29 <elliott> Vorpal: this is less hacky than a table?
16:33:06 <elliott> honestly, it's not like using a bunch of divs is any more semantic or easier for a screen reader than tables
16:33:27 <elliott> and if you use html 5 elements and css 3 to avoid all extraneous styling wrappers for perfect semanticity with perfect design
16:33:36 <elliott> you just wasted like five hours on something with absolutely zero benefit
16:36:00 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: this is less hacky than a table? <-- I didn't say that
16:37:26 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I tend to do simple designs. Think somewhat less fancy than http://cr.yp.to/ ;)
16:38:00 <Vorpal> actually, scratch that, I tend to set bg and fg colours with css.
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16:55:51 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
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17:28:59 <Gregor> All our base are belong to us!
17:29:53 <leBMD> So, I'm having issues with a Befunge program, and I was wondering if you might know the answer
17:30:15 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
17:30:24 <leBMD> I'm testing out the NCRS fingerprint with a simple print statement, but it's throwing itself into a constant loop.
17:30:26 <Gregor> Somebody might, and that somebody is almost assuredly on this channel, but that somebody is also almost assuredly not me X-P
17:30:47 <leBMD> I'll just post the code I've got to see if anyone can show me my error.
17:30:49 <leBMD> "SRCN"4(1I"lol"SR0I)@
17:31:15 <leBMD> it's supposed to only print once, but it goes on ad infinum.
17:31:28 <elliott> Vorpal, fizzie, Deewiant are the ones who know Befunge-98
17:31:40 <elliott> I don't count, I only implemented the damn thing
17:31:59 <elliott> leBMD: enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity :-)
17:32:01 <fizzie> Your "lol" should probably have a 0 underneath, at least.
17:32:02 <leBMD> I'm actually using Deewiant's interpreter right now
17:32:12 <elliott> that it doesn't support NCRS is immaterial
17:32:32 <fizzie> Otherwise I would think S will also pop the NCRS fingerprint-id and that 1 off, and then ) won't unload it but reflect instead.
17:34:08 <leBMD> hmm, now it isn't printing anything at all...
17:34:30 <leBMD> though thanks for the 0 suggestion, that's probably my problem
17:34:45 <leBMD> "SRCN"4(1I11M"lol"0SR0I)@
17:34:48 <elliott> oh thought that was a joke
17:34:54 <fizzie> Well, yes, you want 0"lol"S.
17:34:54 <elliott> <fizzie> Your "lol" should probably have a 0 underneath, at least.
17:35:10 <fizzie> Not "lol"0S; that will print the empty string and leave "lol" on the stack.
17:35:15 <elliott> leBMD: do you like our magnificent new wiki frontpage
17:35:37 <leBMD> it's pretty beautiful
17:35:41 <fizzie> (The 0I might also clear out the screen.)
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17:43:28 <Gregor> elliott: http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1302671493/l50 lololololol
17:45:27 <Gregor> I'm going to replace "It remains to be seen whether this experiment will prove successful. " now :P
17:47:08 -!- wareya has joined.
17:49:07 <leBMD> well, if any of you guys know of an example program in Befunge that uses NCRS, I'd be grateful. So far I can't make heads or tails of what I'm doing wrong.
17:49:48 <Deewiant> http://iki.fi/deewiant/befunge/mycology.html
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17:54:53 <Gregor> Deewiant: I NOTICE YOU HAVE NOT LOCKED YOURSELF IN THE MATRIX OF SOLIDITY
17:57:27 <Sgeo> "On August 9, 2007, in the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York, Johnson & Johnson (J&J) filed suit against the American Red Cross alleging trademark infringement.[22] The suit seeks to halt the placement of the Red Cross emblem on all first aid, safety and disaster preparedness products not specifically licensed by Johnson & Johnson. The suit also asks for the destruction of all currently existing non-J&J Red Cr
17:57:27 <Sgeo> oss emblem-bearing products of this type, and demands the American Red Cross pay punitive damages and J&J's legal fees."
17:57:30 <Sgeo> .....THE FUCK?
17:59:12 <leBMD> LOL MONEY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN BABIES LIVES
17:59:21 <leBMD> that's the J&J slogan.
18:01:13 <Gregor> Johnson & Johnson: A family-killing company.
18:01:49 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what was the outcome of it?
18:02:12 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emblems_of_the_International_Red_Cross_and_Red_Crescent_Movement#Johnson_.26_Johnson_v._American_Red_Cross
18:02:39 -!- News-Ham has joined.
18:02:40 -!- News-Ham has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:02:50 <fizzie> That snippet should probably clarify that it was only about stuff Red Cross sold retail.
18:03:53 <fizzie> (Though they still rather deservedly lost.)
18:08:54 <leBMD> thanks, Deewiant. It's helping a good deal.
18:10:34 <Gregor> Wow, first time I've seen Mycology cause anything but pain and suffering ;)
18:11:59 -!- news-ham has joined.
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18:13:31 <leBMD> of course, I'm still getting an endless stream of "lol wut," but now it's organized and I can at least look at something else to see what's up.
18:13:31 <Gregor> But ... what is the news without ham?
18:14:06 <elliott> Gaah, connection lag, I hates it.
18:14:13 -!- news-ham has joined.
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18:14:16 <leBMD> "SRCN"4(n1Ina"tuw lol"SRnI)@
18:14:19 -!- news-ham has joined.
18:14:23 <elliott> Hey news-ham, you're my favourite news-giving ham. Give me some news right now.
18:14:31 <leBMD> I'm still not totally sure why it keeps looping, but I'm making progress.
18:14:39 <news-ham> Poverty 'hitting pupils' studies': Many pupils living in poverty come to school hungry, tired and in worn-out clothes, a survey by the teachers' union ATL suggests. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/education-13081777
18:14:39 -!- news-ham has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:14:43 -!- news-ham has joined.
18:14:45 <elliott> Hey news-ham, you're my favourite news-giving ham. Give me some news right now.
18:14:51 <news-ham> Tories 'out of the comfort zone': The Conservatives say they have a programme that would take them "out of their comfort zone" as they publish their Welsh assembly manifesto. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-wales-politics-13083291
18:14:59 <elliott> news-ham: More news please.
18:15:01 <news-ham> Comeback kid: Fidel Castro is well again, but does he still have power? http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-latin-america-13047948
18:15:17 <elliott> newsham: I am afraid you are now surplus to requirements.
18:15:21 <leBMD> news-ham: More news please.
18:15:23 <news-ham> Croatians convicted of war crimes: Two Croatian military leaders are jailed for war crimes committed in the 1990s, provoking anger in Zagreb where many regard them as war heroes. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-europe-13092438
18:15:24 <elliott> The News Ham delivers all we could possibly want.
18:15:48 <Gregor> news-ham: If you keep spewing news, I will KILL YOUR AUTHOR.
18:15:50 <news-ham> Clashes at mass protest in Syria: Security forces in the Syrian capital Damascus use tear gas and batons on thousands of anti-government protesters trying to march on the city centre. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-middle-east-13097926
18:16:11 <elliott> news-ham: Who's the sexiest
18:16:13 <news-ham> Winding-up order for Wrexham FC: Wrexham FC are issued with a winding up order by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs over a debt of almost £200,000. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-13101239
18:16:18 <elliott> Incorrect, Wrexham FC is not the sexiest
18:17:12 <Gregor> Is it bestiality or necrophilia to have sex with ham?
18:17:24 <Deewiant> leBMD: What's on the stack at the ) has to be what's on the stack after a ( (well, it doesn't have to, but it usually is), and n clears the stack, so the stack is empty when you hit the ), so it reflects.
18:17:38 <Vorpal> wait, is news-ham a bot?
18:17:39 <news-ham> Defiant Yemen leader holds rally: Yemen's President Ali Abdullah Saleh addresses large crowds in the capital, Sanaa, denouncing protesters as huge opposition rallies are held elsewhere. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-middle-east-13098338
18:17:47 <news-ham> Japan orders nuclear compensation: Japan orders the operator of the crippled Fukushima nuclear plant to pay provisional compensation to about 48,000 affected families. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-asia-pacific-13090304
18:17:53 <news-ham> Bail for Indian social activist: India's Supreme Court grants bail to leading public health specialist and human rights activist, Dr Binayak Sen. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-south-asia-13091521
18:18:06 <Vorpal> wait, is it triggered on highlight
18:18:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Stop pinging it then, you moron.
18:18:21 <elliott> The News Ham dispenses news when asked to.
18:18:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I beat you to that discovery
18:18:26 <elliott> That is its only purpose in life, apart from being a ham.
18:18:30 <Vorpal> elliott, who's idea is this?
18:18:30 <elliott> It achieves both admirably.
18:18:40 <elliott> Oh, it has a third purpose, which is to be written in PicoLisp. At that, too, it excels.
18:19:00 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't the last one a boolean?
18:19:07 <elliott> Sgeo: Uh. Is Regenaxer addressing you?
18:19:20 <Gregor> : (def gimmeastring '('"Foo?"))
18:19:20 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
18:19:23 <elliott> Vorpal: This is PH's idea; I have delightfully co-opted it and implemented it.
18:19:25 <Sgeo> elliott, because I've been speaking in there
18:19:29 <elliott> Gregor: I broke all applications of anything :P
18:19:32 <elliott> Sgeo: The agricultural thing :P
18:19:39 <Vorpal> elliott, how many bots in this channel now?
18:19:40 <elliott> Gregor: This then ripples to everything else.
18:19:47 <elliott> Gregor: Because the whole system is designed to use parts of it, even the primities :P
18:19:51 <Sgeo> I have no idea about agricutural stuff
18:20:02 <Gregor> elliott: Betcha if you rewrite PicoLisp in Fythe, it'll be faster and/or slower than the original implementation!
18:20:13 <elliott> Gregor: So e.g. any function that evaluates its arguments depends on eval, quote, and map.
18:20:18 <elliott> Also, PicoLisp is pretty fast for an interpreter :P
18:20:27 <elliott> I plan to write a mini-Lisp on Fythe when I get the chance though.
18:20:37 <Vorpal> elliott, why not make it JIT?
18:20:40 <elliott> Sgeo: <Regenaxer> btw, are you still working on that agricultural system?
18:20:43 <Vorpal> elliott, also, got a link to picolisp?
18:20:47 <Sgeo> elliott, no idea
18:21:13 <Sgeo> software-lab.de/doc/ which is not linked to from anywhere
18:21:15 <elliott> Vorpal: Why not make what JIT? Fythe?
18:21:24 <Sgeo> http://home.picolisp.com
18:21:32 <elliott> Vorpal: http://picolisp.com/5000/-2.html is the PicoLisp web site.
18:21:56 <elliott> PicoLisp is highly reliant on eval.
18:22:00 <elliott> JITting wouldn't help much *shrug*
18:22:29 <Vorpal> elliott, and for Fythe?
18:22:46 <elliott> Vorpal: Fythe is already a JIT ......
18:22:50 <elliott> That's its whole entire reason for existing.
18:23:11 <Gregor> That reminds me, I want to write the World's Worst JIT: A library that you spit C into, it executes gcc -O3 on it and dlopens the result, then gives you the function ref :P
18:23:22 <elliott> I think that's been done :P
18:23:43 <Gregor> ARGUABLY if you use it in concert with a better fast JIT, it's not even that bad, it's your hotspot JIT :P
18:24:05 <elliott> Anyway, news-ham likes newsham, foul rumours to the contrary notwithstanding.
18:24:06 <news-ham> Chile to exhume ex-leader Allende: A Chilean court orders the exhumation of Salvador Allende to determine whether the former leader was murdered or killed himself. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-latin-america-13096836
18:24:15 <elliott> In fact, it likes it so much that it wants to tab-complete whenever newsham was.
18:24:18 <elliott> And also, have newsham's name.
18:24:21 <elliott> And also, replace newsham's skin.
18:24:37 <Vorpal> hm, I wonder if it would be possible to JIT eval. Of course not in general, but perhaps for some patterns of eval it might be possible to somehow speed up their execution in a JIT-like fashion. Say if you have something (obviously not in lisp this...) like eval(name_of_variable + " := something");
18:24:54 <Vorpal> elliott, it does that?
18:24:56 <elliott> or, what you said made no sense
18:25:04 <Gregor> Vorpal: See: My upcoming paper at ECOOP :P
18:25:19 <Vorpal> elliott, what I'm saying is that a JIT could optimise *some* instances of eval.
18:25:20 <elliott> Vorpal has the retarded ideas, Gregor has the retarded implementation.
18:25:28 <elliott> I snark from the sidelines, retardedly.
18:25:39 <Gregor> elliott: Naw, the paper just reports on the real-world reported code and gives some suggestions.
18:26:07 <Vorpal> Gregor, well, I'll just give my time machine a whirl, and come back when I read it then
18:26:36 <leBMD> it seems to be reflecting at R for some reason.
18:26:37 <elliott> btw http://esolangs.org/wiki/Funciton is an awesome language and everyone should check it out right now.
18:26:54 <Vorpal> Gregor, back. Very interesting.
18:27:01 <elliott> news-ham: You're the old ham.
18:27:02 <news-ham> Winding-up order for Wrexham FC: Wrexham FC are issued with a winding up order by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs over a debt of almost £200,000. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-13101239
18:27:37 <Gregor> # Programs use the Unicode box-drawing characters to create a graphical representation of data flow. BEST EVER
18:27:47 <elliott> BBC News comments: unbelievably stupid?
18:27:49 <elliott> "As I gay man I wouldn't feel comfortable if two men were kissing if I was in a straight pub with members of my family for instance - so I agree with the landlord's judgement . I believe tolerance should flow both ways."
18:27:57 <elliott> TIL there is such a thing as a "straight pub"
18:28:21 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, I don't think my idea is retarded as such. It might however not be very useful to implement what I suggested. Depends on how common optimisable eval constructs are. Lots of trade-offs there
18:28:37 <leBMD> "SRCN"4(1Ia"tuw lol"SR0I)@
18:29:01 <Gregor> elliott: There's no such thing as a straight pub because of the REPRESSIVE HOMOSEXUAL AGENDA.
18:29:28 <Vorpal> leBMD, I believe 0I will clear the screen. You might want to make it wait before going there.
18:29:36 <Vorpal> hm wait, maybe that is what R does
18:29:46 <Vorpal> (I don't remember the details of every fingerprint)
18:29:49 <leBMD> R refreshes, but it's also reflecting for some reason.
18:30:25 <Vorpal> leBMD, well, check if it takes any parameters, then check what you have on stack. If you are using ccbi (pretty sure you said you were), it has a good debugger.
18:30:26 <leBMD> 0C clears the screen
18:31:24 <Vorpal> leBMD, well, 0I will clear the screen most likely, since it will call ncurses functions to restore the state of the terminal. On my screen that results in clearing clearing the screen and getting back whatever was there before.
18:31:41 <Vorpal> I suppose this might vary between different terminal emulators
18:32:20 <leBMD> well, the lines are showing up, it just shows 20 lines of "tuw lollol wut" (my original string is "lol wut"
18:32:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, fythe looks extremely interesting. Do you have any sorts of benchmarks comparing it to other JIT engines, such as the llvm one?
18:33:00 <fizzie> "SRCN"4(1Ia"tuw lol"SR0I)@ is again missing the 0 for the string.
18:33:02 <Gregor> Vorpal: Not enough implemented.
18:33:20 <Gregor> Well, actually as of quite recently basically everything is implemented :P
18:33:25 <Gregor> But no benchmarks have been yet.
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18:34:27 <elliott> news-ham science_and_technology
18:34:28 <news-ham> VIDEO: Webscape: Cartoons and synthesisers: How British protests are being affected by the digital revolution http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/technology-13078297
18:34:34 <leBMD> if I replace a with 0, then it's blank for a second before an explosion of text.
18:35:20 <fizzie> http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcfunge2_manual.html#NCRS doesn't list R at all. (Of course NCRS is not a RCS-defined fingerprint, so that's not definitive.)
18:35:29 <Vorpal> Gregor, what sort of optimisation does it perform? Stuff like optimising on the fly for common cases is quite interesting I find.
18:35:54 <Gregor> Vorpal: Fythe only has a fast template JIT thusfar.
18:36:40 <leBMD> it lists R at the 3rd bullet point.
18:36:49 <leBMD> I've been using http://sprunge.us/AQBP
18:36:55 <leBMD> so that may be my error
18:36:56 <Vorpal> Gregor, so it doesn't look at the generated code to try to eliminate non-needed instructions? Say, removing a zeroing of a register that is in this case already zero?
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18:37:04 <fizzie> Well, ccbi-2.1/src/ccbi/fingerprints/jvh/ncrs.d seems to implement R, so that's all right.
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18:37:24 <news-ham> Lecturers vow to fight job cuts: Andy Murray cruises through to a semi-final against Rafael Nadal with a straight-sets defeat of Frederico Gil in the Monte Carlo Masters. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/sport1/hi/tennis/13096672.stm
18:37:30 <news-ham> The story of our rooms: A pub in London's Soho locks its doors before a planned "kiss-in" protest by hundreds of gay rights' protesters. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-13085653
18:37:36 <elliott> hmm, so that's not working then
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18:38:02 <Gregor> Vorpal: Like I said, it's a template JIT, it does no optimizations of the generated code. I'm focusing on the fast JIT for the moment, a good hotspot JIT will (might) come later.
18:38:11 <news-ham> Debt advisers closed down by OFT: Popular music streaming service Spotify has put caps on the amount of free music listeners can have. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/education-13081777
18:38:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Got a better news source with RSS?
18:38:27 <news-ham> VIDEO: Film found in church 'reveals Nazi guilt': Severe storms leave at least nine people dead and destroy school buildings and dozens of homes in the US states of Arkansas and Oklahoma. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-wales-13098246
18:38:35 <elliott> That doesn't sound like arts.
18:38:52 <news-ham> VIDEO: Royal wedding plans, US style: The Republic of Ireland's progress on cutting its deficit has been approved by international authorities, a condition of its 85bn-euro bail-out. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-south-asia-13091521
18:38:52 <fizzie> elliott: news.google.com has some feeds, http://www.google.com/support/news/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=59255
18:39:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I'd say it is broken indeed
18:39:11 <elliott> Vorpal: There is no sports.
18:39:14 <Gregor> Vorpal: However, the other caveat is that Fythe itself is actually about as low-level as it can be while providing a few vital guarantees for higher-level languages, so there might actually not be too much to optimize at that level.
18:39:24 <Vorpal> elliott, oh okay, shouldn't it give an error message then?
18:39:37 <elliott> Sports have a feed, actually.
18:39:40 <elliott> I'll integrate that in a minute.
18:39:43 <elliott> fizzie: That as good as BBC? :P
18:39:44 <news-ham> Vettel heads Hamilton in practice: Hamas condemns the murder of Italian pro-Palestinian activist Vittorio Arrigoni, found hanged in Gaza City hours after his abduction. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13100390
18:39:58 <Vorpal> Gregor, right. Common sub-expression elimination and some peephole optimisation might still be of interest though
18:40:06 <leBMD> the tracer seems to freeze up once it steps past I.
18:40:14 <fizzie> elliott: Well, I mean, it's probably more variable and has more sources; of course not if by "good" you mean the content too.
18:40:21 <Gregor> Vorpal: Technically a smart transform can do CSE at a higher level than Fythe IR >: )
18:40:21 <Vorpal> leBMD, oh right, ncurses messes up the terminal
18:40:40 <Gregor> Vorpal: Dynamic optimizations are what I'm more interested in *shrugs*
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18:41:36 <Vorpal> Gregor, dead-store elimination and peephole both make sense at a very low level though.
18:41:48 <news-ham> Live scores - Magners League: Coachellla unveils groundbreaking new stage and light show http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/sport1/hi/football/13092511.stm
18:41:53 <Vorpal> not sure about loop invariant, probably better done at a higher level
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18:42:09 <leBMD> football is not artistic
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18:42:20 <Gregor> Vorpal: Anyway, much still waits to be seen *shrugs*
18:42:23 <news-ham> G20 finance ministers meet in US: China's economy continues to boom as inflation accelerates to the fastest rate since 2008. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-13096021
18:42:30 <Gregor> news-ham porn god damn it porn
18:42:32 <news-ham> Stalled revolts: British artist Tracey Emin salutes a "spectacular" new gallery in Margate its founders hope will help regenerate the Kent seaside town. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/magazine-12483492
18:42:51 <Vorpal> Gregor, bbc? porn? no. I doubt it.
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18:42:56 <Gregor> pornnews.com/feeds/rss
18:42:56 <leBMD> news-ham, give me sound financial advice.
18:42:57 <news-ham> Polar bear Mercedes put to sleep: Lecturers at the University of Salford say they could strike over plans to cut more than 200 posts. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-middle-east-13097926
18:43:02 <elliott> oerjan: I MADE AN AWESOME NEW HOME PAGE FOR US
18:43:23 <leBMD> the moral of that news story: the polar bear is like my savings account.
18:43:30 <oerjan> news-ham: your hyphen is fooling NO ONE
18:43:32 <news-ham> FBI closes in on zombie PC gang: Justice Minister David Ford says he will set up an independent review into the allegations made by the chief executive of the Police Ombudsman office. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/sport1/hi/formula_one/13090220.stm
18:43:38 <leBMD> I must kill it at the university level.
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18:43:59 <news-ham> HEY!... almost as good as you dying!
18:44:00 <news-ham> FE colleges 'charging lower fees': Popular music streaming service Spotify has put caps on the amount of free music listeners can have. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13091269
18:44:11 <elliott> oerjan: What are you implying to my good old friend The News Ham?
18:44:14 <news-ham> HEY!... almost as good as you dying!
18:44:15 <news-ham> Ex-EastEnders star joins Corrie: Duke, Dash, Digby, Pickle - what was the first Dulux dog called? http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/education-13086654
18:44:16 <elliott> He dispenses news, he's a ham, what more could you want!
18:44:20 <elliott> WHY WON'T IT FILTER PROPERLY
18:44:38 <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
18:44:39 <leBMD> news-ham, will you go to prom with me?
18:44:40 <news-ham> HEY!... almost as good as you dying!
18:44:40 <news-ham> 'A tonic to the nation': Andy Murray cruises through to a semi-final against Rafael Nadal with a straight-sets defeat of Frederico Gil in the Monte Carlo Masters. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/health-11442887
18:44:42 <elliott> oerjan: express approval of my hard work kthxplz
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18:45:20 <news-ham> HEY!sportssports... almost as good as you dying!
18:45:20 <news-ham> VIDEO: Five hours to clean one boot for big day: A man jailed for murdering a mentally ill man in a hammer attack in Glasgow has his conviction quashed. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13099147
18:45:29 <elliott> Sports, sports, almost as good as you dying.
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18:45:50 <Vorpal> elliott, try to run the relevant function from a REPL? Might work better
18:45:58 <elliott> Or maybe your mom might work better just SAYING
18:46:00 <Vorpal> or even step through it in a debugger
18:46:05 <Vorpal> debuggers *are* useful
18:46:10 <leBMD> that could be a new irc bot, your mom.
18:46:14 <elliott> i don't even know picolisp's debugger.
18:46:24 <leBMD> "your mom, what should I do?" "your homework!"
18:47:22 <Vorpal> elliott, see, the REPL *was* useful
18:47:35 -!- news-ham has joined.
18:47:38 <news-ham> VIDEO: Car thief crashes through level crossing: The sister of a girl thought to have been murdered in a so-called "honour killing" admits robbing her family at their Cheshire home. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-latin-america-13047948
18:47:55 <Vorpal> elliott, it was an artful robbery!
18:48:05 <leBMD> it was modern art.
18:48:17 <Vorpal> well, now it is broken it seems
18:48:53 <leBMD> well, I'd better go do things like eat lunch and hang out with women or something of the sort. Seeya!
18:49:11 <leBMD> news-ham live long and prosper
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18:49:34 <Vorpal> who let the star trek nerd in?
18:50:18 <Gregor> Vorpal: Hey, you're not allowed to talk, Mr. No-I-Don't-Want-To-Be-Locked-In-A-Matrix-Of-Solidity
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18:51:09 <elliott_> oerjan: do you love the main page or do you love the main page
18:51:25 <Gregor> <oerjan> INSUFFICIENT DAY OF THE DAY OF THE DAY
18:51:35 <oerjan> our site policies, so meta
18:51:45 <elliott_> IT'S TAIIIILORRRRRREEED TO FIIIIRST TIIIIME VIIISIIIITOOOOOORS
18:51:51 <elliott_> The matrix of solidity is there if you look closely.
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18:52:16 <news-ham> David Jason returning to comedy: Popular music streaming service Spotify has put caps on the amount of free music listeners can have. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13092126
18:52:26 <news-ham> VIDEO: Royal wedding plans, US style: Hamas condemns the murder of Italian pro-Palestinian activist Vittorio Arrigoni, found hanged in Gaza City hours after his abduction. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-middle-east-13091091
18:52:38 <news-ham> Keys to play Albert Hall concert: Coachellla unveils groundbreaking new stage and light show http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13095810
18:52:39 <news-ham> EU's biofuel targets 'unethical': EDF Energy gave the BBC special access to Sizewell B to reassure people that Japan's Fukushima disaster could not happen here. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_9450000/newsid_9456600/9456640.stm
18:52:41 <news-ham> Brain scans show Alzheimer's risk: EDF Energy gave the BBC special access to Sizewell B to reassure people that Japan's Fukushima disaster could not happen here. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-13056862
18:52:45 <news-ham> Khan ready for long break from UK: World champion Sebastian Vettel heads McLaren's Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button in Friday practice at the Chinese Grand Prix. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/sport1/hi/rugby_league/live_scores/default.stm
18:52:50 <news-ham> McIlroy shares lead in Malaysia: Northern Ireland's Rory McIlroy moves into the joint lead of the Malaysia Open after shooting a second-round 64. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/sport1/hi/rugby_union/live_scores/4776425.stm
18:52:52 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Vorpal: Hey, you're not allowed to talk, Mr. No-I-Don't-Want-To-Be-Locked-In-A-Matrix-Of-Solidity <-- sure I am
18:53:06 <news-ham> VIDEO: ISS crew phone home on space anniversary: A polar bear and cub emerge from hibernation in Alaska to find a construction site over their den. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/health-13047332
18:53:18 <Gregor> Is it just me or is there a disconnect between the part before the ":" and the part after the ":"
18:53:38 <Gregor> EU's biofuel targets 'unethical': EDF Energy gave the BBC special access to Sizewell B to reassure people that Japan's Fukushima disaster could not happen here. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_9450000/newsid_9456600/9456640.stm <-- lolwut
18:54:11 <Gregor> news-ham PORNO PORNO PORNO
18:54:13 <news-ham> 7 days quiz: An Italian pro-Palestinian activist is found dead in the Gaza Strip hours after being abducted, local security officials say. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-middle-east-13091091
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18:54:27 <news-ham> Royal Opera announces new season: London's Royal Opera House announces its programme for the new season, including an Olympic theme and a celebration of Placido Domingo's career. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13092146
18:54:38 <Gregor> news-ham PORNO PORNO PORNO
18:54:39 <news-ham> Pollution hits EU wildlife havens: Air pollution is damaging 60% of Europe's prime wildlife sites in meadows, forests and heaths, a team of scientists warns. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/science-environment-13094597
18:54:58 <elliott_> oerjan: SRSLY THOUGH I require more praise for my efforts
18:55:31 <elliott_> `addquote <Vorpal> elliott, it was an artful robbery! <Vorpal> wait, murder
18:55:35 <HackEgo> 366) <Vorpal> elliott, it was an artful robbery! <Vorpal> wait, murder
18:55:38 <Gregor> elliott_: You skipped "1" btw
18:56:02 <Gregor> "I predict revision in 3...2..." "...0"
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18:56:17 <news-ham> VIDEO: Bubble car business takes off: Father and daughter team of Alan and Emma Evans, have developed a scale model version of the 1950s bubble car that is proving a huge hit. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-13088553
18:56:48 <news-ham> Stale beer's chemistry examined: The exact chemical recipe of stale beer is elucidated, and researchers suggest simple ways to prevent the fresh taste of beer degrading. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/science-environment-13067547
18:57:10 <news-ham> Fujitsu offers UK fast rural net: Fujitsu is to create a superfast broadband network for rural parts of the UK, rivalling BT's service. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/technology-13060548
18:57:15 <news-ham> Spotify cuts back on free music: Popular music streaming service Spotify has put caps on the amount of free music listeners can have. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/technology-13078302
18:57:37 <elliott_> http://sprunge.us/DjOI ;; This is waaaaay too short for what it does.
18:57:51 <elliott_> Even Python would have ridiculously pointless bureaucracy for the XML handling.
18:58:27 <news-ham> Osborne and deputy clash over AV: Tory Chancellor George Osborne clashes with his Lib Dem deputy in a row over the alternative vote referendum. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-politics-13071737
18:58:34 <news-ham> VIDEO: Blackberry and Motorola take on iPad: Rory Cellan-Jones tries out the new high end tablets hoping to take a bight out of Apple?s market. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/technology-13058814
18:59:35 <elliott_> I should make it randomly substitute Onion headlines.
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19:04:14 <news-ham> New Music Experience: Coachellla unveils groundbreaking new stage and light show http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13091269
19:04:19 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
19:05:01 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_: OMG make it invoked by "what are the haps my friends".
19:05:16 <news-ham> Ducks' bill colour gives STD clue: Ducks use bill colour to determine their mates' sexual health, according to scientists. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_9454000/9454586.stm
19:05:44 <news-ham> Road to Libya: The key events leading UK into military action http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-politics-12821505
19:06:24 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so I realised two things just now, one surprising in a stupid way, the other gobsmacking.
19:06:37 <Phantom_Hoover> The first is that Dakota Fanning is in fact less than a year older than me.
19:06:54 <elliott_> The second is that she is therefore underage and you're going to prison for what you've done.
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19:07:20 <elliott_> What are the haps my friends? The haps relating to SCIENCE?
19:07:21 <news-ham> VIDEO: Trio of jaguar cubs charms Russia: A zoo in St Petersburg is celebrating the arrival of jaguar cub triplets - a very rare occurrence when the animals are bread in captivity. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/science-environment-13077955
19:07:25 <Phantom_Hoover> The second is that I can't have been more than 11 when I saw the posters for the Tom Cruise War of the Worlds film and thought "this'll never live up to the rock opera."
19:07:33 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: Your wish, it is had.
19:07:52 <elliott_> BTW, the topics the News Ham is aware of:
19:08:01 <Phantom_Hoover> http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Exzoo-favourite-Mercedes-the-polar.6752264.jp
19:08:12 <elliott_> World, UK, business, politics, health, edu/education, sci/science, tech/technology, ent/entertainment/arts, sport/sports.
19:08:19 <elliott_> news-ham: Sprots. What is with them.
19:08:19 <news-ham> London Met slashes degree courses: London Metropolitan University says it is to cut hundreds of courses so that it can survive financially when tuition fees are increased. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/education-13098705
19:08:23 <news-ham> Vettel heads Hamilton in practice: World champion Sebastian Vettel heads McLaren's Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button in Friday practice at the Chinese Grand Prix. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/sport1/hi/formula_one/13090220.stm
19:08:37 <Phantom_Hoover> news-ham: what are the haps my friends. The technology ones specifically.
19:08:38 <news-ham> Sony considers two-week shutdown: Sony Corporation is considering shutting down some of its premises in Japan because of the ongoing power shortages. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/13075977
19:08:39 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: ARTICLE WAS NOT ABOUT TRAMS, DISAPPOINTED
19:08:50 <elliott_> You don't need to ping him if you're asking what the haps be.
19:09:03 <elliott_> "There is no such thing as bear Heaven. Likewise there is puppy or kitten Heaven. The bear will decompose naturally."
19:11:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I am going to start blaming all the stories on the trams.
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19:14:47 <elliott_> what do you think of the WONDERFUL NEW MAIN PAGE
19:15:24 <ais523> I haven't looked at it yet
19:15:31 <ais523> but the mere fact that the question was asked worries me
19:15:39 <elliott_> I redesigned our wiki's main page because it sucked.
19:16:05 <elliott_> Half of it was memes because of me, the rest was unordered with important stuff close to things like zomg wiki preservation and site policy.
19:16:13 <elliott_> And also no clear indication of what the site's actually about.
19:16:15 <elliott_> So I made THE BEST MAIN PAGE EVER.
19:16:25 <ais523> gah, that right sidebar
19:16:32 <ais523> it's what made people abandon Wikia in droves
19:16:32 <elliott_> IT WAS GOING TO HAVE MEANINGFUL THINGS IN!
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19:16:56 <ais523> exactly, and it makes the page really hard to read
19:16:58 <elliott_> (When it was going to have meaningful things in it, it was at the left.)
19:17:13 <elliott_> Unless your browser is about 3 pixels wide I guess.
19:17:14 <ais523> because you keep getting attracted to it rather than the actual text
19:17:22 <ais523> if it was full of text, you'd be able to ignore it
19:17:33 <elliott_> Would you prefer I swap the backgrounds? :p
19:17:46 <ais523> just get rid of it altogether, probably
19:17:54 <elliott_> Naw, the page would look boring without it :)
19:17:55 <ais523> you can still limit the text width if you like
19:18:08 <elliott_> I'm not doing it to limit the text width, I'm doing it because it makes it look nice :-P
19:18:11 <ais523> bear in mind that there's a left sidebar, and it works differently
19:18:16 <ais523> it doesn't make it look nice, it makes it unreadable
19:18:48 <elliott_> ais523: You are the first person to complain about it. If you are not the only person to complain about it, I will eat my hat. I find your blanket statement of "unreadable" unrealistic :P
19:19:28 <ais523> Gregor: agree with me quickly, will you?
19:19:37 <ais523> elliott_: it's an accent bar, and a really annoying one at that
19:19:39 <elliott_> (This isn't me disregarding what you are saying, this is me saying that "it makes the text absolutely unreadable, this is why people left Wikia!!!" is an overreaction and I'm not going to respond to it because it's as close to trolling as you get.)
19:20:00 <ais523> well, I find it hard to read
19:20:15 <ais523> it takes a lot of concentration to even get past the line wrapping on the first line
19:20:21 <ais523> you start reading it, then sidebar, then you forget the start of the sentence
19:21:04 <ais523> also, disguising an internal link as an external link to IRC means that people without IRC clients might not try to click on it
19:21:14 <elliott_> ais523: Would I be correct in thinking you'd find it less annoying if it were on the left, because you'd not run into sidebar on line-wrapping?
19:21:15 <ais523> that formatting would be perfectly sane if it didn't already mean something different in MediaWiki
19:21:19 <elliott_> Also, I haven't disguised anything.
19:21:26 <elliott_> The question mark is unlinked.
19:21:31 <ais523> although having a useful sidebar on the left, followed by a pointless sidebar, would be a bit silly
19:21:34 <elliott_> I added the icon only because it was really easy to miss otherwise.
19:21:37 <ais523> and I agree that the formatting isn't exactly the same
19:21:57 <elliott_> How many MediaWiki sites even have IRC links, anyway :P
19:22:15 <elliott_> Anyway, apart from this evidently-contentious-by-one-person sidebar, it's a hell of a lot better than the previous page :P
19:22:54 <ais523> I agree that the content is better
19:22:55 <fizzie> The IRC_icon.gif did make me think twice before clicking (and check the URL), because I wondered if it would launch a IRC client.
19:23:24 <elliott_> That IRC placing is a placeholder.
19:23:31 <elliott_> I'm trying to figure out the best way to introduce it into the layout so that it
19:23:39 <elliott_> (1) Doesn't appear to people before the actual intro, but
19:23:45 <elliott_> (2) Is noticeable if you don't pay attention to the meta crap at the bottom :P
19:24:31 <fizzie> As far as content goes, it feels somehow very modern and HCI-y.
19:25:42 <elliott_> I used the time-tested technique of "disguise a list of links as conversational by rephrasing 'Hey check out this it is cool' in a different way for each bullet".
19:28:35 <elliott_> ais523: Anyway, I'm fully open to suggestions wrt the sidebar-that-never-got-any-useful-content, it's just that I'd like it to look a little more visually interesting than it would be if I just removed it *shrug*
19:28:54 <elliott_> news-ham: What's going on in... politics?
19:28:55 <news-ham> Who's who: The cabinet: A guide to who's doing what in David Cameron's Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition government. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/1/hi/uk_politics/8675705.stm
19:29:13 <ais523> a watermarked background might be interesting
19:29:21 <ais523> but I'm not sure if you can do that in MediaWiki
19:29:28 <ais523> especially if you can't use <div> or <span>
19:29:39 <ais523> hmm, is news-ham a bot?
19:29:41 <news-ham> Winding-up order for Wrexham FC: Wrexham FC are issued with a winding up order by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs over a debt of almost £200,000. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-13101239
19:29:59 <elliott_> A ham that is written in PicoLisp and dispenses news.
19:30:05 <news-ham> Orchestra to record Games anthems: The London Philharmonic Orchestra is to record the national anthems of all 205 countries participating in the 2012 Olympics. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13093562
19:30:21 <elliott_> ais523: MediaWiki filters out url(anything) generally :P
19:30:30 <elliott_> I could manually watermarki...
19:30:39 <elliott_> ais523: What if I moved the Useless Sidebar to the top or bottom?
19:30:45 <elliott_> If the top, I could pull the Esolang title in.
19:31:12 <ais523> because the side sidebar makes the page tall enough that you can scroll it out of the way
19:31:40 <elliott_> ais523: OK, confirm or deny: You are implying that a header having a deeper colour than the page content distracts you to the point of having to scroll it away?
19:32:01 <ais523> not always, but sometimes
19:32:15 <ais523> what I hate to the point of scrolling away at the top is fake toolbars
19:32:33 <ais523> but I meant that if something can be scrolled away, it doesn't really matter whether it annoys me or not, because if it does I can get rid of it
19:33:40 <elliott_> At the top ain't gonna work out, too much dud whitespace wrt. the title. I'll try the bottom.
19:38:48 <elliott_> ais523: what do you think about the current version?
19:38:51 <elliott_> Slightly work in progress, but
19:39:49 <ais523> it's good in an absolute sense, and better in a relative sense
19:40:32 * elliott_ tries to make the trilime go to the bottom of the page
19:43:10 <elliott_> ais523: btw, what was that hack to hide the "Main Page" title?
19:43:19 <elliott_> I forget the number of pixels you have to go up
19:46:20 <elliott_> wow, making something go to the bottom is non-trivial
19:48:03 <elliott_> or are the limes distracting now :D
19:49:20 <elliott_> really? i find the limes actually distracting now.
19:49:41 <elliott_> ugh, ais523, you're obscuring the history of {{lowercase}} with this new {{lowercase title}} page circa 2007 :)
19:49:52 <elliott_> time for a shitload of edits to User:ehird/sandbox
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19:55:18 <elliott_> ok, final revision for now -- oh look it fucked up
19:55:52 <elliott_> it worked in userspace because of the "go back to X"
19:56:58 <elliott_> hope it's to ais523's satisfaction now :P
19:57:24 <ais523> it's failing to covert two/three pixels of "Main Page"
19:57:59 <ais523> so I fear your hack is font-size dependent
19:58:02 <ais523> the one on Wikipedia was
19:58:05 <elliott_> I'll just let the page title stay, then
19:58:10 <ais523> which is why they stopped using it
19:58:38 <elliott_> Sgeo: what did you say in #picolisp, i must know
19:59:07 <Sgeo> elliott_, something about how I'm using Windows at home and sshing into my school's Linux system to play with PicoLisp
19:59:12 <Sgeo> But that was a while ago
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20:02:38 <Vorpal> elliott_, what, are they annoyed at Sgeo or what?
20:02:58 <Sgeo> Vorpal, no, just told me to set up a Linux VM
20:04:55 <news-ham> 7 days quiz: Duke, Dash, Digby, Pickle - what was the first Dulux dog called? http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/magazine-13068655
20:07:11 -!- atrapado has joined.
20:08:00 <elliott_> atrapado. hey, he's that old guy!
20:08:18 <elliott_> am i thinking of atrapado? maybe not
20:10:45 <Vorpal> elliott_, you want me to check in logs if he has been here before or something?
20:10:53 -!- baboolatw_ has joined.
20:11:07 <elliott_> that'll teach me to put the irc channel on the main page
20:11:43 <Vorpal> => select tstamp from irc.logs where nick = 'atrapado' order by tstamp limit 1;
20:11:43 <elliott_> well i'm assuming that's where baboolatw_ came from :)
20:12:12 <Vorpal> elliott_, so yes he or someone with the same nick has been here before
20:13:50 <elliott_> i _think_ we may be scaring baboolatw_ off.
20:13:59 <elliott_> especially if he's expecting esotericke magicke.
20:14:15 <Vorpal> well, this channel is about esoteric programming languages
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20:24:39 <zzo38> Yes, is generally English. Sometimes we find stuff in non-English, but this channel is for English typing please
20:27:35 <oklopol> oko away your worries okay
20:37:27 <Vorpal> FINALLY. *why* is it so hard to modify the url of a search provider in firefox
20:38:13 <Vorpal> you need to edit /usr/lib/firefox-4.0/searchplugins/google.xml *and* search.json in your firefox profile directory to make it work.
20:38:26 <Vorpal> I presume not the latter if you don't have an existing profile
20:40:28 <fizzie> Yes, it's a bit strange that they haven't added any sort of "edit"/"specify new" feature for the "manage search engines" GUI.
20:40:48 <elliott_> ais523: please enter your #matrixofsolidity
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20:41:29 <olsner> oklopol: oklokloklokloklo
20:41:38 <Vorpal> curl: (52) Empty reply from server <-- strange failure mode
20:42:01 <olsner> elliott: Yes, is generally English.
20:42:22 <olsner> elliott: in other words, please elaborate?
20:42:44 <olsner> <elliott_> Arm is a moron/troll.
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20:46:34 <elliott> o news-ham, what is going on in the world?
20:46:34 <news-ham> Doubts over Gbagbo ally's arrest: The whereabouts of Charles Ble Goude, a key ally of deposed Ivory Coast leader Laurent Gbagbo, are unclear, after a spokesman withdraws a statement saying he had been arrested. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-africa-13093017
20:46:40 <elliott> but news-ham, what of the UK?
20:46:42 <news-ham> Newspaper review: A scoop in the Times leads the way for Friday's papers http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-13090201
20:46:56 <elliott> ah. and of artsy matters. what are the haps my friends, in that area?
20:46:57 <news-ham> Pratchett to probe assisted death: Writer Sir Terry Pratchett is to participate in a BBC Two documentary about assisted suicide, it is announced. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13088111
20:47:30 <Vorpal> elliott, what in that line did it highlight on?
20:48:46 <Sgeo> Can we approximate how muc... h... eep
20:48:52 <olsner> ergh :/ that's more spam than I've made since 9 am this morning
20:49:13 <Sgeo> How much longer he has
20:50:27 <Vorpal> also "Pratchett to probe assisted death", who writes this kind of titles? Does anyone uses that sort of wording outside news?
20:50:58 <Vorpal> (specifically I'm considering the use of "probe" there a bit strange)
20:51:09 <elliott> <Sgeo> Can we approximate how muc... h... eep
20:51:20 <elliott> He's planning to off himself before he dies of it, anyway
20:51:33 <elliott> Vorpal: "what are the haps my friends" triggers it because yes
20:51:34 <news-ham> VIDEO: Bubble car business takes off: Father and daughter team of Alan and Emma Evans, have developed a scale model version of the 1950s bubble car that is proving a huge hit. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-13088553
20:51:57 <Sgeo> elliott, yes, but has he decided at what point he'll do it, or something?
20:52:08 <elliott> Sgeo: I don't think so. What was that "muc... h... eep" about
20:52:56 <elliott> news-ham: Educate me about scis.
20:52:57 <news-ham> Colleges 'axing courses and jobs': A survey of colleges in England for two unions suggests many have already been cutting courses and jobs. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/education-13003726
20:53:01 <Vorpal> elliott, Is it just me, or does newspapers use a curious variant of English in titles?
20:53:09 <oklopol> what if suddenly, everyone except you was immortal
20:53:17 <elliott> news-ham: Scis! What's they 'bout
20:53:19 <news-ham> VIDEO: New funding to clean up waterways: Voluntary groups are being invited to bid for funding to clean up England's waterways and create better habitats for wildlife http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/science-environment-13059545
20:53:34 <elliott> seriously though wtf this bot is so tiny
20:53:59 <elliott> (THE TININESS: http://sprunge.us/GhYf)
20:54:02 <Vorpal> elliott, what about news paper English?!
20:54:46 <Vorpal> elliott, <Vorpal> elliott, Is it just me, or does newspapers use a curious variant of English in titles?
20:55:15 <elliott> BUT I USE A CURIOUS VARIANT OF LISP IN BOT!
20:55:28 <Vorpal> elliott, for example, would you ever use the wording "Pratchett to probe assisted death"?
20:55:50 <elliott> Yes, it gives me the hilarious mental image of Terry Prachett/assisted death slash fiction.
20:59:18 <news-ham> Do all languages share features dictated by brain?: A long-standing idea that languages share universal features dictated by human brain structure is cast into doubt. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/science-environment-13049700
20:59:27 <elliott> Vorpal: the topic of discussion is now the news ham's code, btw.
21:01:18 <Vorpal> elliott, it is rather short yes. what is de
21:01:30 <elliott> function definition. which is the same thing as list definition.
21:01:43 <elliott> (de x ...) is like (define x '(...)) in scheme
21:01:46 <Vorpal> elliott, not enough lisp macros in there
21:01:53 <elliott> EVERYTHING in PicoLisp is a macro
21:02:01 <elliott> PicoLisp to Scheme: (de id (x) x) -> (define id '((x) x))
21:02:16 <Sgeo> (Paraphrase) lambda is spelled q u o t e
21:02:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I can't see you defining your own macro anywhere
21:02:35 <elliott> Vorpal: That's because you don't know PicoLisp
21:02:49 <Vorpal> elliott, quite, where is your macro. I'd like to know what they look like
21:02:50 <elliott> randArticle is a macro. Well, it's a macro that behaves exactly like a function, but functions are just macros in PicoLisp.
21:03:06 <elliott> Topics is also a macro that does nothing useful, because lists are macros/functions X-D
21:03:07 <Sgeo> Isn't there some thing you do in the argument list that makes it not evaluate the argument?
21:03:17 <elliott> Sgeo: Yeah, make the arg list not a list I think :P
21:03:24 <elliott> i.e. '(x x) = quote, '((x) x) = id
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21:03:32 <elliott> quote as in (quote . x) = 'x style quote
21:03:38 <Vorpal> elliott, another issue, the Topics map looks like it is O(n). :(
21:03:46 <Vorpal> (of course it is short...)
21:03:56 <elliott> Vorpal: it's O(1) because the size of the list is fixed
21:04:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: are the haps
21:04:08 <Sgeo> The PicoLisp people don't believe in arrays
21:04:09 <Vorpal> elliott, well I meant the search in it
21:04:29 <elliott> Vorpal: O(1), because it's never >a fixed N.
21:04:34 <news-ham> Burkina Faso government dismissed: Burkina Faso's president dissolves his government after members of his presidential guard went on an overnight rampage in the capital Ouagadougou. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-africa-13101197
21:05:14 <Vorpal> elliott, a binary tree would be more elegant :(
21:05:21 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott: wait make it recognise "what are the <topic> haps my friends"
21:05:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i'll do it, but note that it will end up recognising "haps my friends what are the"
21:06:06 <Sgeo> Vorpal, Picolisp has easy support for binary trees somehow, I don't remember details though
21:06:07 -!- news-ham has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:06:48 -!- news-ham has joined.
21:06:49 <elliott> Haps my friends science what are the
21:06:51 <news-ham> EU's biofuel targets 'unethical': EU biofuels targets are unethical and should be lifted temporarily, according to a report. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-13056862
21:07:03 <news-ham> Tories 'out of the comfort zone': The Conservatives say they have a programme that would take them "out of their comfort zone" as they publish their Welsh assembly manifesto. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-wales-politics-13083291
21:07:10 <Vorpal> elliott, shouldn't it give an error in case of an unknown topic?
21:07:19 <quintopia> They are like leprechauns but they don't try so hard to trick you with their wish-granting
21:07:20 <elliott> How does it know what word is meant to be the topic.
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21:07:24 <elliott> This line is scientific and it mentions news-ham.
21:07:25 <news-ham> A dragonfly's guide: Dragonflies are thriving in some unexpected places http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_9455000/9455764.stm
21:07:27 <elliott> It therefore gets scientific news.
21:07:34 <quintopia> they are also harder to catch, because leprechauns enjoy being caught sometimes
21:07:55 <Vorpal> elliott, well, that would be easy if you didn't try to make it go anywhere
21:08:41 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, if you only allowed ^news-ham[:,.]? *<topic>
21:08:44 <news-ham> Actor Trevor Bannister dies at 76: Are You Being Served? star Trevor Bannister has died at the age of 76, his brother confirms to the BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13098312
21:08:46 <quintopia> what if i mention computers and news-ham in the same message?
21:08:47 <news-ham> Cry wolf: Why are re-worked fairy-tales like Red Riding Hood now in vogue? http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-12992931
21:08:52 <elliott> quintopia: It's "technology"
21:09:35 <Vorpal> elliott, idea, use wordnet to figure out the meaning of a word!
21:09:40 <elliott> What are them mongrels that demand that the mishaps my friends cause must be punished?
21:09:47 <news-ham> Stalled revolts: Is the Arab Spring running out of steam? http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-middle-east-13091091
21:09:50 <Sgeo> I just wish Picolisp had namespaces
21:10:05 <Sgeo> I mean, I could probably implement such a thing myself
21:10:37 <quintopia> that sgeo would pick a language and do something useful in it!
21:10:56 <monqy> pick every language, do everything useful
21:11:15 <quintopia> because #esoteric doesn't deal in traditional usefulness
21:11:17 <elliott> Sgeo: Namespaces are against the PicoLisp philosophy near as I can tell.
21:11:24 <elliott> It would harsh the vibes up, bro.
21:11:36 <news-ham> Smart investment: Does your business need its own mobile app? http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/business-13000883
21:11:39 <elliott> Can't write my randArticle with namespaces. Well, you can, but it'd suck.
21:11:58 <Sgeo> elliott, hmm. The "can change everything" philosophy?
21:12:03 <Sgeo> Or some other part?
21:12:13 <elliott> Sgeo: No, the "bro anything goes and everything is short" philosophy.
21:12:13 <quintopia> is news-ham just a rss filter bot?
21:12:21 <elliott> AKA the sleep-deprived pot smoker's philosophy.
21:12:22 <news-ham> Italian activist murdered in Gaza: An Italian pro-Palestinian activist is found dead in the Gaza Strip hours after being abducted, local security officials say. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-middle-east-13088630
21:12:23 <Phantom_Hoover> An awful lot of BBC headlines are rhetorical questions, now that I look at them.
21:12:27 <elliott> quintopia: Only if you ping it. And it's BBC!
21:12:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You must not forget BBC 'News'
21:12:46 <elliott> http://po-ru.com/bbc-news/
21:13:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Thus http://po-ru.com/bbc-news/
21:13:08 <elliott> All the 'news' that's fit to 'quote'
21:13:39 <news-ham> Vettel heads Hamilton in practice: World champion Sebastian Vettel heads McLaren's Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button in Friday practice at the Chinese Grand Prix. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/sport1/hi/formula_one/13090220.stm
21:14:08 <quintopia> it doesn't make me think any better of you
21:14:17 <elliott> quintopia: It's not our fault you keep pinging it.
21:14:24 <elliott> BTW, it is now official channel policy that the News Ham predates newsham coming here.
21:14:42 <zzo38> How can I find weather forecast program usable on gopher?
21:14:55 <quintopia> elliott: i have no issues with the bot. i just don't think having an idea is all that great a thing. implementing an idea is much cooler.
21:15:03 <elliott> quintopia: Yeah. I am cool. You know what is even the most coolerest?
21:15:07 <elliott> IMPLEMENTING IT IN PICOLISP
21:15:26 <elliott> quintopia: http://sprunge.us/fCHG
21:15:34 <Vorpal> elliott, use THIS to figure out that computer -> technology: http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?o2=&o0=1&o7=&o5=&o1=1&o6=&o4=1&o3=&r=1&s=computer&i=92&h=11130021301300221302001301300013022222002000000013002100000000000000101000000000000000000000101000#c
21:15:38 <elliott> quintopia: GO FETCH AN RSS FEED FROM HTTP AND PARSE OUT THE ARTICLES FROM IT SHORTER THAN RANDARTICLE DOES WITHOUT ANY RSS LIBS
21:15:41 <elliott> IN YOUR FAVOURITE LANGUAGE
21:15:47 <quintopia> i gathered as much from your comment about "randArticle"
21:16:44 <Vorpal> elliott, I seem to unable to find the tree structure I'm looking for in there
21:17:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13047570 ;; BBC NEWS
21:17:12 <Ilari> Whee, this DNS server doesn't give any records for query for type ANY, but gives a record for query for type AAAA. :-/
21:17:13 <Vorpal> elliott, in the link I gave
21:18:46 <Vorpal> actually you could look at the hypernyms, and mark a handful of them as "technology", such as "machine"
21:19:00 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia: I WOULD IMPLEMENT THINGS IF ELLIOTT DIDN'T ALWAYS IMPLEMENT THEM FIRSt
21:19:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ALSO IF YOU COULD PROGRAM
21:19:22 <oklopol> it's funny because Phantom_Hoover is stupid
21:20:32 <Vorpal> ooh or you could look at hypernyms of the domain category. That looks even more interesting!
21:21:09 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but if I make them I first need to discuss the idea with you
21:21:12 <elliott> news-ham: Haha, you're new, and fraudulent. One could even say you are a ... new sham!
21:21:12 <news-ham> David Jason returning to comedy: Sir David Jason is making his comedy comeback in a new BBC One sitcom about a former soldier mistakenly put in charge of royal security. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13065697
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21:21:15 <elliott> HAHAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHHA
21:21:20 <elliott> Vorpal: You might wanna learn PicoLisp first :P
21:21:28 <elliott> (It takes about five minutes to learn)
21:21:29 <Vorpal> elliott, meh, I'll wing it ;)
21:21:34 <elliott> Winging it IS learning it :P
21:22:17 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway the theory is more interesting than the practical application
21:22:44 <elliott> Yes, but the former is what would have us with Phantom_Hoover sitting on a terrible pun, not implementing it.
21:23:31 <quintopia> so if people are willing to accept a news bot in here, surely they are willing to accept a radiobot!
21:23:42 <Vorpal> elliott, hm, I think I'm turning into him... Scary. I have been doing a lot more theory than implementation recently
21:23:55 <Vorpal> elliott, apart from stuff I need to implement for university purposes
21:24:01 <elliott> Eagerly awaiting Vorpal with Ph.D. and no desire to program.
21:24:28 <Vorpal> elliott, oh of course, I do the quick one liner and such to automate tasks, but that is about it recently
21:24:40 <elliott> Soon you will run out of tasks to automate
21:25:17 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. Maybe I could automate programming for me. I'd probably get billions if I would manage that, which is an extra bonus.
21:25:37 <quintopia> people who solve AI-hard problems make millions
21:25:49 <quintopia> actually, it's corporations that solve them, not people, but same difference
21:25:51 <Vorpal> quintopia, has anyone actually done that?
21:26:08 <Vorpal> but yes, they would make millions if they did
21:26:35 <quintopia> well, we're not far off from reasonably good brain machine interfaces
21:26:48 <quintopia> that would at least speed up the programming process i suspect
21:26:50 <Vorpal> quintopia, didn't oklopol try out one and find it was pretty shitty?
21:27:15 <quintopia> but i think there will be reasonably good ones in our lifetimes
21:27:35 <Vorpal> quintopia, I eagerly await the day when I can input some pseudo code, or even an informal description, and get a fully working 3D game out
21:27:42 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: all the good ones involve neurosurgery to implant the necessary hardware
21:28:19 <Vorpal> quintopia, I presume "good" is relative here... How bad are the good ones?
21:28:33 <quintopia> Vorpal: i don't. what would i do for money when everyone just makes their own shit like that?
21:28:56 <Vorpal> quintopia, get tenure?
21:29:15 <olsner> elliott: say something funny, will ya?
21:29:15 <quintopia> Vorpal: well, they have monkeys controlling robotic arms and legs quite precisely. that's a start.
21:29:35 <olsner> not as funny as I expected, but it might do
21:29:38 <Vorpal> quintopia, that leaves out the *artificial* intelligence though
21:29:42 <Ilari> RIPE themselves say they have 4.04 blocks available.
21:29:57 <Vorpal> quintopia, good for prosthesis(spelling?) I guess
21:30:15 <Vorpal> Ilari, hm. Is that 4.04 /8?
21:30:27 <quintopia> Vorpal: yeah. it'll be quite a while before we can build a fully-functional human in any way other than the fuck-and-wait-40-weeks method
21:30:34 <Vorpal> Ilari, how did they get that much? I'd expected 2-3 after the endgame
21:30:48 <elliott> olsner: so does your thue compiler work
21:30:57 <olsner> the guitar solo(s) in A Kind of Magic are pretty neat, makes me yearn for a SID version of this song that picks out the good parts
21:30:58 <Vorpal> quintopia, there is the artificial insemination thingy
21:31:01 <quintopia> Vorpal: i think we'll have ALS patients and quadriplegics walking again within 50 years
21:31:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Family are continuing to obnoxiously steal this computer off me.
21:31:16 <olsner> elliott: yep, it was just the first character of the program getting cut off
21:31:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Page closed).
21:31:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, password protect it?
21:31:34 <olsner> really stupid mistake thingy
21:31:51 <elliott> quintopia: Persuing such things directly is probably a less effective way of reaching their desired goal than going via an AI
21:31:58 <Ilari> Another source claims 3.69 (and thats including the final /8, that 4.04 figure didn't contain it).
21:32:00 <Vorpal> olsner, how much faster than the python implementation is it now?
21:32:10 <Ilari> Yes, over a block of difference.
21:32:10 <olsner> had [^q](.*) instead of ([^q].*) in one place
21:32:25 <olsner> Vorpal: same speed, pretty much
21:32:30 <quintopia> elliott: people are simultaneously pursuing AI. AI is the fast route to long term goals, but this is achievable in the short run
21:33:01 <elliott> quintopia: Nobody is pursuing effective AI right now.
21:33:15 <Vorpal> Ilari, what does RIPEs own data say?
21:33:19 <elliott> If you reply "Cyc", I will laugh uncontrollably. This will not be a voluntary action.
21:33:29 <elliott> quintopia: i.e. actually programming or designing a feasible AGI.
21:33:57 <Ilari> RIPE's own graph says 4.04 (not including final /8). I try to locate extended delegated file.
21:34:16 <quintopia> what do you think all the research into learning theory is for? people are designing algorithms to eventually be able to do just that
21:34:18 <Vorpal> elliott, what is wrong with Cyc as such? Sure it isn't that likely to lead to an AI, but the database might be useful to an AI, should one ever be developed.
21:34:43 <elliott> Vorpal: (1) Cyc's approach is unworkable. (2) The database would be useless because any feasible AI would be able to understand the source material directly.
21:34:54 <elliott> Furthermore, Cyc's database is in large part irrelevant bullshit like US presidents.
21:35:08 <elliott> quintopia: I don't think you understand the A part of AGI.
21:35:11 <quintopia> Vorpal: Cyc sucks. The people who built Watson looked at it and said "HAHAHAHAHA we'll just use books and wikipedia and stuff kthx"
21:35:20 <elliott> Watson is not even anything close to an AGI.
21:35:29 <elliott> Nobody is currently working on building a Friendly seed AGI. That is a fact.
21:35:33 <elliott> Well, nobody is publicly doing it.
21:35:39 <elliott> Therefore nobody is working on a feasible AGI.
21:35:41 <quintopia> watson is not even close to an AGI and even they thought cyc was useless
21:36:24 <Vorpal> elliott, what about evil AGI?
21:36:40 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't consider an AI that paperclips the universe to be very feasible.
21:36:44 <elliott> Not much opportunity to reap rewards.
21:37:04 <elliott> "Oh hi lil fella, what's great" "PAPERCLIPS!" "Hahaha isn't that ni*disintegrates*"
21:37:04 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, is this a Clippy reference?
21:37:12 <elliott> Vorpal: No, it's a paperclipping reference.
21:37:24 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm completely lost now
21:37:24 <elliott> http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer
21:37:34 <quintopia> elliott: do you think the hutter prize will eventually lead to better english language modeling?
21:37:59 <elliott> quintopia: I don't have nearly the expertise nor psychic abilities to answer that question.
21:38:03 <elliott> I do not know if compression is related to understanding.
21:38:07 <Vorpal> elliott, oh right. Why did they select paperclips for the concept, rather than, say, pens or whatever
21:38:46 <quintopia> probably cuz of the guy who traded a paperclip for a house. they decided paperclips must be very valuable :P
21:38:54 <elliott> Pretty sure it predates that.
21:39:17 <Vorpal> quintopia, wait what, what have I missed here?
21:39:40 <elliott> Vorpal: someone got famous for trading paperclip->...->house
21:39:58 <elliott> mostly because the things swapped were of almost but not quite identical value
21:40:02 <elliott> or hard to estimate or subjective value
21:40:23 <quintopia> no it's mainly because people wanted to get famous for having been a part of the trading process
21:40:42 <elliott> Which didn't really work since there's so fucking many trades involved
21:40:56 <Ilari> Calculating from RIPE delegated-extended doing the same corrections as is done for that 4.04 figure gives 4.03 blocks.
21:41:06 <quintopia> everyone involved came to the housewarming party
21:41:20 <Ilari> Diffrent days, that might very well explain the diffrence.
21:41:47 <elliott> On November 16, 2005, he made a second (and successful) attempt (after having the generator confiscated by the New York City Fire Department) in Maspeth, Queens, to trade the generator for an "instant party": an empty keg, an IOU for filling the keg with the beer of the holder's choice, and a neon Budweiser sign.
21:41:48 <elliott> On December 8, 2005, he traded the "instant party" to Quebec comedian and radio personality Michel Barrette for a Ski-doo snowmobile.
21:42:18 <Vorpal> elliott, confiscated, why?
21:42:23 <elliott> On or about July 5, 2006, he traded the movie role for a two-story farmhouse in Kipling, Saskatchewan
21:42:35 <quintopia> he traded an afternoon with alice cooper for a snowglobe
21:42:44 <elliott> quintopia: hahaha, you're right
21:42:52 <quintopia> and then traded the snowglobe to a hollywood director for a part in a major motion picture
21:42:53 <elliott> it was a KISS motorised snow globe
21:43:03 <Vorpal> elliott, what the heck is that
21:43:25 <Vorpal> elliott, where does the motor fit in
21:43:41 <Vorpal> quintopia, okay, so it stirs the thing or what?
21:44:03 <quintopia> i mean, how do they fit the turntable motor in the bottom of a microwave? there's so little space down there!
21:44:21 <quintopia> they fill the entire hoods of cars
21:44:49 <Vorpal> quintopia, I meant more like "how does it fit into the *concept* of a snow globe"
21:44:59 <Vorpal> quintopia, as in, what does it do for it
21:46:31 <Sgeo> elliott, why is Picolisp's OO in C?
21:46:36 <Sgeo> Try making a method
21:46:49 <Sgeo> Then show the symbol for the method
21:49:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I would say that there *are* problems for which OO is an efficient way to model the domain. But OO is *very* over-used.
21:50:16 <elliott> Vorpal: everything i say is 100% objectively true always in the universe of the exceptionally tired, irritable shithead
21:50:49 <Vorpal> elliott, only your own personal pocket universe I presume.
21:50:52 <elliott> Vorpal: before you dismiss that context as irrelevant, it seems to be unusually productive for me, as I've produced both the new main page, and news-ham
21:50:52 <news-ham> Weapons found in dissident search: Guns and ammunition, including two pistols, are found in Lurgan by police investigating dissident republican activity. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-northern-ireland-13100494
21:51:11 <elliott> i wager that others could see similar productivity increases, were they willing to suffer in all other aspects.
21:51:12 * Sgeo wanted to add multiple dispatch
21:52:00 <Vorpal> elliott, do you think strong AI is possible? And what about feasible?
21:52:30 <Vorpal> elliott, possible to be done by humans within the next hundred years or so.
21:52:43 <elliott> (It is quite obviously possible, in that one can simulate even qubits on a classical computer, so even if the brain relies on quantum effects...)
21:52:58 <elliott> (I of course do not believe in any supernatural cause of intelligence, so that's enough.)
21:53:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Next hundred years? Maybe.
21:53:05 <Vorpal> elliott, for example, it is theoretically possible to simply model an entire human brain. That is not yet feasible.
21:53:30 <elliott> It would be lucky, that's for sure.
21:53:39 <elliott> You pretty much only get one shot at getting AGI right, after all.
21:53:57 <Vorpal> no refinement and so on?
21:54:03 <elliott> I assume you're aware of un-Friendly AI, FOOM, etc.
21:54:16 <Vorpal> elliott, right. Maybe you could *evolve* an AI?
21:54:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Uhh, if you don't build a self-improving AI, it's pretty useless :P
21:54:31 <elliott> You'll note that we're not really getting any more intelligent.
21:55:09 <Vorpal> elliott, Could you simulate it faster than the human evolution inside a computer?
21:55:19 <elliott> (Nightmare fuel: The reason we haven't heard from alien civilisations is because they all ended up creating un-Friendly AIs that are now paperclipping the universe limited only by the speed of light.)
21:55:35 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you don't expect to see a strong AI during your own life-time I gather?
21:55:50 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm not sure that question makes sense. Anyway, throwing random numbers at a problem isn't necessarily easier than throwing brains at it.
21:55:57 <elliott> It's just less of a pain for us :)
21:56:36 <elliott> Vorpal: Depends how you define my own life-time, if things don't look good on the seed AI front I'll certainly give serious thought to signing up for cryonics
21:57:06 <elliott> In the next 70 years or so, dunno, like I said it would be incredibly lucky.
21:57:11 <Vorpal> elliott, we don't yet know that cyronics will actually work.
21:57:29 <elliott> Vorpal: No, we don't, but cryopreservation of organs on the small scale does.
21:57:43 <elliott> (For limited periods of time)
21:58:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Add the 70 years or so they have to improve the already pretty-good preservation process and I think there's a damn good chance I'd be _preserved_ perfectly enough, the question isn't whether you're preserved but whether you're revivable.
21:58:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I think I seen a theory somewhere, that perhaps memories are electrical signals kept in constant circulation in the brain. If so, cyrogenics would run into problems.
21:58:38 <elliott> On the grand scale of things it has enough evidence and promise, the reward is high enough, and the cost is cheap enough for it to seem to pay off to me.
21:58:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Is there any evidence for that theory?
21:58:58 <elliott> ISTR reading a rebuttal of it.
21:59:22 <elliott> Anyway, there are all sorts of reasons cryonics might not work, but it all really boils down to reward times probability of it working.
21:59:24 <Vorpal> elliott, I think there was some indications that it might be true, but no hard evidence as far as I remember. I don't even remember where I read about it.
21:59:29 <elliott> Erm, and factoring in the cost there :P
22:00:23 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, how *does* the human brain store memories. Chemically? Electrically? Some completely different way?
22:00:49 <elliott> Dunno, ask a neuroscientist. I'm almost certain you'll get "dunno" back.
22:01:05 <elliott> But I do seem to recall reading a rather convincing rebuttal of the "constant circulation of signals" idea.
22:01:56 <Vorpal> elliott, is *anybody* certain about anything but the simplest parts of the brain?
22:02:24 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean, people save up shitloads of money for their funeral and crap like that, cryonics is obviously a better investment if you're going to spend money on after-clinical-death things.
22:02:52 <elliott> I don't anticipate dying any time soon, anyway :P
22:03:10 <Vorpal> indeed. Maybe we discover immortality before we die
22:03:52 <elliott> I doubt "we" will "discover" "immortality" :P
22:04:23 <Vorpal> elliott, well, engineer it perhaps. And I meant "we" as in Homo Sapiens Sapiens
22:04:39 <Vorpal> (which is, by the way, an utterly silly name)
22:04:43 <elliott> Define immortality, if I'm going to live for 80 million years does that count as immortal?
22:05:08 <Vorpal> elliott, I'd say "until heat death of universe, excluding accidents, and then fuck you"
22:05:12 <Vorpal> so no dying of old age
22:05:26 <elliott> Heat death of the universe is a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time away.
22:05:40 <elliott> All we need right now is a few thousand year extension to start with :P
22:05:56 <olsner> or it's next year, according to some calendars
22:06:11 <Vorpal> elliott, that's do too. I wouldn't call that immortality though.
22:06:22 <Vorpal> damn s being next to d
22:06:24 <elliott> Vorpal: I'd say aiming for immortality is a pointless goal compared to that
22:06:42 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I'll remind you of that on your 2000th bday :P
22:06:45 <elliott> I'd only consider immortality to be true immortality if it involved the heat death of the universe being prevented, anyway :P
22:07:14 <Vorpal> elliott, who knows, our theories *could* be wrong. That happened before. Many times.
22:07:30 <elliott> Even if a heat death is on its way I don't think that implies it's absolutely inevitable *shrug*
22:08:06 <Vorpal> possibly. If we could only harvest that quantum vacuum thingy
22:08:21 <elliott> Vorpal: In the long long run (and of course this is just in the realm of pointless sci-fi wankery but INEVITABLE LOL) I'd expect perceived-seconds to take many quadrillions of years.
22:08:32 <elliott> Let's say there's an absolute limit to it.
22:08:49 <elliott> Let's say we want to compute SHITLOADS of things. I think that's pretty likely. e.g. virtual reality simulation.
22:08:52 <Vorpal> elliott, perceived-seconds?
22:08:57 <olsner> blink and face quadrillions of years having passed before your eyes during which you have done nothing
22:09:03 <elliott> Vorpal: As in, what we perceive as a second will actually take quadrillions of years.
22:09:21 <elliott> The obvious solution to a maximum speed of calculation is LAWL MIND UPLOADING.
22:09:21 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean, we being in a universe simulator?
22:09:25 <elliott> Nothing says you have to try and maintain real-time parity.
22:09:55 <elliott> If someone asks the AI to calculate some ridiculously computationally-expensive equation, so what? A second will take a few quadrijillibillion times longer than usual.
22:10:12 <elliott> If you've got the whole dying universe thing under control, that won't be a problem.
22:10:14 <Vorpal> elliott, then we might run into the heat death mentioned
22:10:17 <elliott> If you've got the whole dying universe thing under control, that won't be a problem.
22:10:31 <Vorpal> elliott, it arrived same second
22:13:17 <elliott> Anyway clearly we just need to wait for the Culture to decide we're worth engulfing.
22:13:22 <Vorpal> elliott, actually... with a massively distributed system it might not be so bad. Ever programmed an FPGA? With that you can do a lot of things side by side, that is just unfeasible on a traditional CPU architecture. No I'm not suggesting we will upload ourselves to an FPGA. I'm just using it as an example of the possibilities of massively parallel systems.
22:13:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I should read Culture some time. Maybe.
22:13:44 <elliott> Yah, but the point is that if you have a universe that's going to be around forever, and mind simulation, speed limits don't exist.
22:13:55 <elliott> Just pause mind emulation for however long you want while you compute.
22:14:26 <elliott> So the AI could easily run at N gigateramegabajilliquadriphonicilopsitopsi-operations per second for arbitrary N.
22:14:36 <elliott> Erm, the simulated universe, that is.
22:15:40 <Vorpal> elliott, speaking of which, that recent stuff about carbon transistors looked quite interesting. Well maybe a year old now.
22:17:10 <Vorpal> ah, a little more than a year: "In February 2010, researchers at IBM reported that they have been able to create graphene transistors with an on and off rate of 100 gigahertz, far exceeding the rates of previous attempts, and exceeding the speed of silicon."
22:19:11 <elliott> news-ham: you are my favourite ham.
22:19:14 <news-ham> Benefit cheat danced to karaoke: A benefits cheat is given a suspected jail term for falsely claiming benefits while working as a karaoke host. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-13097919
22:19:50 <news-ham> Tears for Margate: Emotional Tracey Emin salutes the Kent resort's new gallery http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13100390
22:20:52 <Gregor> I want a quick input-only MIDI dumper. No blocking read(), no select(), only poll and read.
22:21:14 <news-ham> Uganda politician wounded by army: Ugandan opposition leader Kizza Besigye is injured as soldiers open fire to disperse protesters in the capital, Kampala. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-africa-13079335
22:22:15 <Vorpal> elliott, feature request, some way to get http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world/europe/
22:22:34 <elliott> you want a latin america feed while i'm at it?
22:22:55 <Vorpal> elliott, well, one for each on the map halfway down http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world/ ?
22:23:09 <Vorpal> elliott, it's like 7 ones
22:23:31 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't it just adding something to the map?
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22:23:45 <elliott> newsham: what are the asia-related haps
22:23:52 <elliott> news-ham: what are the asia
22:23:53 <news-ham> China: Key facts, figures and dates http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/country_profiles/1287798.stm
22:23:55 <Vorpal> newsham, europe my friend!
22:23:56 <elliott> news-ham: what are the europe
22:23:57 <ais523> elliott: you forgot the hyphen
22:23:58 <news-ham> Explore the Space Station: Clickable guide to the International Space Station http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/science-environment-12984241
22:24:00 <news-ham> Irish pass first economic review: The Republic of Ireland's progress on cutting its deficit has been approved by international authorities, a condition of its 85bn-euro bail-out. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/business-13091873
22:24:04 <news-ham> Greenland: Key facts, figures and dates http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/1023393.stm
22:24:10 <Vorpal> news-ham, europe my friend!
22:24:13 <news-ham> Greece: Key facts, figures and dates http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/1009249.stm
22:24:15 <ais523> news-ham: what is the elliott?
22:24:16 <news-ham> Japan orders nuclear compensation: Japan orders the operator of the crippled Fukushima nuclear plant to pay provisional compensation to about 48,000 affected families. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-asia-pacific-13090304
22:24:20 <Gregor> news-ham: What's going on in appropriately-capitalized Asia?
22:24:22 <elliott> KEY FACTS FIGURES AND DATES
22:24:22 <news-ham> Macau: An overview of Macau, including key facts, political leaders and notes on the media http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/country_profiles/4080105.stm
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22:25:17 <elliott> news-ham: WHAT ARE THE INCREDIBLY EXCITING THINGS HAPPENING IN ... SCOTLAND ???
22:25:19 <news-ham> Gers face fresh sectarian charge: Rangers fear being forced to play behind closed doors after Uefa investigates a second charge of sectarian singing by fans. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/sport1/hi/football/13088419.stm
22:25:21 <Vorpal> elliott, what did you change?
22:25:27 <elliott> i removed those shitty ones and added: SCOTLAND
22:25:34 <Vorpal> elliott, in upper case?
22:25:45 <Vorpal> elliott, just in case you mean?
22:25:52 <elliott> Vorpal: btw this can technically do any RSS 2.0 feed
22:26:01 <elliott> but I'll only add ones with title=headline, description=blurb
22:26:06 <Vorpal> elliott, hm.. are you asking for suggestions?
22:26:12 <elliott> Vorpal: for europe stuff, sure
22:26:21 <elliott> heck, i'll even add sweden if you have an english source
22:26:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I can't find the RSS icon in firefox 4... weird
22:27:17 <Vorpal> elliott, for Sweden, what about the English Swedish Radio news? http://api.sr.se/api/rssfeed/rssfeed.aspx?rssfeed=2054
22:27:32 <Vorpal> I'm not sure it fits your criteria above
22:27:52 <Vorpal> <title><![CDATA[Government approves new loan for Saab ]]></title> <-- why CDATA?
22:28:02 <elliott> <description><![CDATA[The case of a Swedish girl who was beaten and raped in Greece in 2008 has sparked a debate here in Sweden after the prosecutor, at the island of Samos, decided to drop all charges against the alleged rapist, and instead charge the woman with defamation.According to the prosecutor the woman was looking for an "erotic adventure" and only reported the man because she was afraid
22:28:02 <elliott> that her friends or family would find out.]]></description>
22:28:08 <elliott> and i don't know if the parser does cdata :D
22:28:19 <Vorpal> elliott, why on earth does it do CDATA
22:28:25 <Vorpal> but yes, the blurb is rather long
22:28:56 <Vorpal> elliott, for a start it is xml yes
22:29:45 <Vorpal> elliott, also I have one on the melodies from Cosmos stuck in my head. I keep humming it all the time. And it is not even a easily hummable one, so the result is rather poor.
22:30:33 <Gregor> ARGH ... I refuse to believe that PortMidi is actually so terrible as to be endianness-sensitive.
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22:31:21 <quintopia> elliott: what is your opinion of potential for OpenCog?
22:31:32 <Vorpal> elliott, if you want the news in German or Sami or "Sisu" (whatever that is) I can do that too
22:31:51 <zzo38> I think I managed to make Stack Overflow work on gopher, now.
22:31:54 <elliott> quintopia: well, ben goertzel is infinitely more competent than most (advisor to SIAI)
22:32:11 <elliott> ISTR some worryingly cavalier statements from him about Friendliness, but... a better chance than most.
22:32:13 <Gregor> OK, WHEW, it's not as bad as I thought X_X
22:32:15 <elliott> So still about 0 modulo rounding errors.
22:32:18 <Gregor> Just poorly documented.
22:32:35 <Vorpal> elliott, oh Sisu seems to be Finnish for some completely unclear reason
22:33:06 <elliott> sorry, just found: the best feed
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22:34:11 <Vorpal> elliott, one thing you could do I think is simply strip the CDATA bit at the start and the end. That might work. Or it might break horribly.
22:34:18 <Vorpal> <zzo38> I think I managed to make Stack Overflow work on gopher, now. <-- what?
22:34:38 <Vorpal> `addquote <zzo38> I think I managed to make Stack Overflow work on gopher, now.
22:34:39 <HackEgo> 367) <zzo38> I think I managed to make Stack Overflow work on gopher, now.
22:34:49 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes I think I worked it?
22:35:04 <zzo38> gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/1column80*a
22:35:07 <Vorpal> zzo38, what do you mean. Some sort of gropher->http proxy?
22:35:28 <Vorpal> zzo38, it seems firefox 4 can't open that
22:36:05 <zzo38> Maybe you can connect using netcat and use the selector string "column80*a" (without quotation marks)
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22:36:39 <elliott> news-ham: You smell kinda weird. Like... onions.
22:36:48 <elliott> ?xml-stylesheet -- Unbalanced XML
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22:37:09 <news-ham> Kobe Mad: 266878 http://feeds.theonion.com/~r/theonion/daily/~3/OZ4jWQQeNIM/
22:37:09 <Vorpal> elliott, not done Sweden yet?
22:37:14 <news-ham> Last Pick Of WNBA Draft Earns Title Of Saddest Woman In America: 266878 http://feeds.theonion.com/~r/theonion/daily/~3/9Xdm_BVQ7Gw/
22:37:34 <Vorpal> elliott, that looks wrong
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22:38:17 <news-ham> Obama Orders Guantánamo Prisoners Transferred To Next President: http://feeds.theonion.com/~r/theonion/daily/~3/EeNrTh9rkGE/
22:38:27 <news-ham> American Voices: Sleeping Air Traffic Controllers Prompts FAA Action: http://feeds.theonion.com/~r/theonion/daily/~3/W_MzYEmRU7I/
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22:38:55 <news-ham> Author Promoting Book Gives It Her All Whether It's Just 3 People Or A Crowd Of 9 People: http://feeds.theonion.com/~r/theonion/daily/~3/ZWc3ZGMm8H8/
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22:39:28 <news-ham> Magazine: Our Elderly Wildlife Issuehttp://feeds.theonion.com/~r/theonion/daily/~3/u8A4tk_8uY0/
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22:39:41 <elliott> (I can't use onion blurbs, too long, so just headlines)
22:39:48 <elliott> (this also means i could do that swedish thing but not right now)
22:39:51 <news-ham> Third-Party Candidate Forms Exploratory Committee To See Who Can Cover Shifts For Him In Coming Months http://feeds.theonion.com/~r/theonion/daily/~3/GcNN-SSV64E/
22:40:28 <news-ham> New Music Experience: Coachellla unveils groundbreaking new stage and light showhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13091269
22:40:38 <Vorpal> elliott, did the cdata not work out?
22:40:56 <Vorpal> elliott, insert a space there
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22:41:08 <elliott> most of that is the topics :)
22:41:11 <Vorpal> elliott, post the source?
22:41:23 <elliott> Vorpal: you mean the latest? ok
22:41:25 <Gregor> Need another MIDI parsing library then X_X
22:41:37 <elliott> Vorpal: http://sprunge.us/ADiC
22:42:12 <Vorpal> elliott, (if (and (== feed 'onion) (== X 'description)) <-- how inelegant. Should have a map with a flag like "use-desc" or such
22:42:24 <elliott> I should just have a function per source.
22:42:35 <elliott> But it was just designed for the BBC, I'm not gonna rearchitecture until tomorrow when I'm awake :P
22:42:45 <elliott> It's still fairly elegant *shrug*
22:42:48 <elliott> (if (get Article 'description) (pack ": " @)) " "
22:42:51 <elliott> ^ good use of anaphoric if here
22:42:52 <Vorpal> elliott, Add the Swedish one please :)
22:43:08 <Vorpal> elliott, http://api.sr.se/api/rssfeed/rssfeed.aspx?rssfeed=2054
22:43:41 <Vorpal> elliott, funny the link text is http://www.sr.se/rssfeed/rssfeed.aspx?rssfeed=2054, but it links to http://api.sr.se/api/rssfeed/rssfeed.aspx?rssfeed=2054
22:43:47 <Vorpal> this is on http://sverigesradio.se/sida/default.aspx?programID=2358
22:44:12 <Vorpal> oh well, the link text one redirects
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22:45:21 <elliott> just gives me an xml parse error
22:45:35 <elliott> ultra-right-wing papers preferred!
22:45:40 <Vorpal> elliott, so the xml parser is incomplete?
22:46:06 <Vorpal> elliott, I know of good Swedish ones. But not ones in English. Hm maybe.
22:46:21 <Vorpal> maybe thelocal has something
22:47:02 <Vorpal> elliott, where the fuck is the RSS icon in firefox 4?
22:47:26 <Vorpal> elliott, this one while not CDATA fails you other criteria I think: http://www.thelocal.se/RSS/theLocal.xml
22:47:48 <Vorpal> elliott, look at link/url
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22:48:05 <Vorpal> wait, that's the image
22:49:35 <Vorpal> elliott, what is the actual relevant difference?
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22:50:30 <Vorpal> elliott, could you just strip out the CDATA stuff with some regex? It might work
22:50:50 <elliott> for today... rss 2 without cdata only :)
22:51:49 <Vorpal> elliott, don't know any. And SR (Sveriges Radio) is *the* good news source in Sweden. Same status as BBC has in UK basically. Except we split Radio and TV in separate companies
22:51:57 <Vorpal> hm maybe they have something
22:52:29 <Vorpal> elliott, does the bot without any topic mentioned use any random source?
22:52:46 <elliott> maybe i should change that.
22:52:54 <Vorpal> elliott, not if you add fox no :P
22:53:41 <elliott> as much a clusterfuck as the news
22:54:01 <Vorpal> utter fail. I searched on svt.se, clicked a result. Got a 404 without the actual error code
22:54:18 <elliott> view-source:http://www.reddit.com/.rss GUESS WHAT QUALIFIES
22:55:08 <Vorpal> elliott, this website design. Where you you rate it on a scale from 0 to 9? http://svt.se/2.42317/english
22:55:17 <Sgeo> elliott, someone is claiming that no languages have an OO system written in themselves. Any counterexamples?
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22:55:36 <elliott> Sgeo: Common Lisp? Sort of.
22:55:41 <news-ham> Actor Trevor Bannister dies at 76: Are You Being Served? star Trevor Bannister has died at the age of 76, his brother confirms to the BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13098312
22:55:42 <news-ham> Why does the US Department of Justice give so many shits about Major League Baseball players on Steroids? http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/gqtoc/why_does_the_us_department_of_justice_give_so/
22:55:45 <news-ham> Guy kicks ball, impossibly wins £250,000. [vid] http://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/gqnp2/guy_kicks_ball_impossibly_wins_250000_vid/
22:55:58 <Sgeo> <cyborg_ar> well, let me rephrase that "the official implementations of most, if not all, popular interpretive object-oriented languages"
22:56:09 <elliott> Vorpal: not the worst i've seen :P
22:56:26 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah that one with hundreds of images you played websplat on is worse
22:56:40 <elliott> and i don't think it had rss UNFORTUNATELY
22:56:40 <Sgeo> Havenwor.. dammit
22:57:35 <Vorpal> elliott, I conclude that if svt.se has RSS, there is a severe lack of English such.
22:57:48 <Vorpal> I'm not even sure it has Swedish rss
22:58:23 <Vorpal> elliott, nothing there, I found RSS in search, but actually clicking the result gave 404 without the proper http status code
22:58:57 <Vorpal> bad web site design: http://sverigesradio.se/ worse web site design: http://svt.se/ Loading time of both are horrible
22:59:20 <Vorpal> elliott, the mobile sr.se works well
22:59:25 <Vorpal> can't seem to access it atm
22:59:35 <elliott> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/ ;; WHOOPS LOOK AT THAT BEST NEWS WEBSITE UI EVER, NON-MOBILEVERSION
22:59:45 <elliott> Loads instantly, typographically sound, web standards, clean design!
23:00:49 <Vorpal> m.sverigesradio.se is a redirect? what? However it does work from my phone. Just checked.
23:00:53 <Vorpal> looks the same as it did before
23:00:59 <Vorpal> but sad they broke it for computers somehow
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23:04:49 <Vorpal> elliott, and yes, bbc is quite okay. Still rather slow and large
23:04:58 <elliott> it's instant from inside uk
23:05:08 <elliott> you should be lucky your backwater country even gets signal!
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23:06:44 <Vorpal> elliott, http://news.google.com/news?pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&topic=h&num=3&output=rss
23:06:45 <Sgeo> elliott, who's being stupid in #picolisp right now, me or Arm?
23:07:40 <Vorpal> elliott, reason google news rss feed sucks:
23:07:43 <Vorpal> <description><table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="7" style=" [...]
23:08:18 <Sgeo> elliott, cyborg_ar agrees with me
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23:09:47 <oerjan> someone not me now needs to write new-sham which dispenses markovian "business opportunities"
23:10:05 <news-ham> VIDEO: Car thief crashes through level crossing: Footage has been released of a car thief smashing through a level crossing seconds before a train passed through. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-england-13094294
23:10:09 <elliott> oerjan: I UPDATED MAIN PAGE
23:10:41 <Vorpal> elliott, issue: it doesn't scroll sideways :(
23:10:51 <oerjan> <elliott> indeed. news-ham. <-- i don't think you got the gist of the "'s, there
23:10:53 <news-ham> Swirling waters: The school swimming club where all but two died in Japan's tsunami http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-asia-pacific-13083528
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23:11:02 <Vorpal> elliott, about ais523's scrolling before
23:11:33 <Vorpal> elliott, but indeed it must scroll sideways when maximised on my 24" monitor
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23:12:05 <ais523> I don't think it would take too much effort to force the page to have a horizontal scrollbar whilst otherwise keeping everything the same
23:12:05 <ais523> but there'd be no point
23:12:49 <Vorpal> ais523, btw for me it doesn't scroll vertically either
23:13:08 <Sgeo> elliott, I feel weird understanding Picolisp better than Arm
23:13:20 <ais523> it's small enough to fit on the screen
23:13:26 <Vorpal> ais523, didn't you say you wanted that?
23:13:36 <ais523> Vorpal: I think you missed the point completely
23:13:58 <Vorpal> ais523, probably. I tried to figure it out and didn't find much sense in it
23:14:19 <Vorpal> ais523, you wanted to scroll to hide the header I think?
23:14:31 <ais523> Vorpal: you are still missing hte opint
23:14:40 <Vorpal> ais523, what *was* the point then?
23:14:58 <Vorpal> elliott, has anyone done a MI TAS btw?
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23:16:09 <oerjan> ais523: User:Racoon needs deletion (and probably banning)
23:16:35 <ais523> oerjan: how recent is that?
23:16:46 <ais523> I don't remember seeing it on my recent changes feed
23:16:52 <oerjan> from today or yesterday
23:16:57 <Vorpal> history says yesterday
23:17:46 <oerjan> ais523: but it came in that Funciton flurry probably. if your rss reader is like mine it may drop changes when there are too many?
23:18:18 <ais523> that may be a mediawiki issue, in fact
23:18:36 <ais523> I'll just delete it for now, and give a really nasty sort of block if the same account does anything else spammy
23:18:38 <oerjan> hm maybe. i have that problem with the Godel's Letter comment feed.
23:18:58 <oerjan> (never see more than the 10 latest)
23:19:55 <Vorpal> The unoccupied (occupied) states [...] <-- what
23:20:12 <Vorpal> actually it makes kind of sense in the full sentence:
23:20:15 <Vorpal> "The unoccupied (occupied) states, colored in blue-red (yellow-green), touch each other without energy gap exactly at the above-mentioned six k-vectors."
23:20:21 <Vorpal> however, extremely awkward
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23:26:50 <oerjan> ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:TOGA_computer
23:32:30 <ais523> I don't normally block the spambots instantly, only if they do it a second or third time
23:41:46 <Vorpal> ais523, huh for clear spambots, why not?
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23:42:02 <ais523> Vorpal: because often they never post again, so it would be a waste
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23:42:11 <Vorpal> ais523, what does it waste?
23:42:14 * oerjan hates it when mediawiki's diff fails spectacularly at matching old and new bits
23:42:33 <ais523> Vorpal: my time; other people's time when they read the banlist
23:42:40 <ais523> clogging recent changes
23:50:07 <zzo38> Is there some C programming where you are allowed to access the activation records directly?
23:54:15 <oerjan> isn't cheney on the mta based on being able to do that?
23:54:46 <oerjan> or wait maybe it just needs setjmp/longjmp
23:55:01 <Vorpal> wait, what are you two talking about?
23:55:27 <oerjan> i'm just thinking about where direct access might already be used
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23:56:49 <oerjan> "Despite this, the C code does not copy C stack frames, only Scheme objects, so it does not require knowledge of the C implementation.
23:56:58 <oerjan> (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_(Scheme_implementation))
00:27:44 <zzo38> Can it be invented, a card game involving the five Chinese elements? Maybe 0 to 9 and infinity of each suit, where the suits are the five elements.
00:31:34 <oerjan> well that sounds obviously _possible_...
00:33:10 <zzo38> oerjan: Do you have any other ideas of this?
00:37:49 <zzo38> Any opinion about chess variants?
00:37:57 <zzo38> Including this one http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSchesswithwicke
00:39:21 <zzo38> I have heard also of a game called "Chess with Quantum Bishops", which I did not invent but heard from someone else, and typed it by myself, though.
00:43:12 * oerjan imagines that like a game where the bishops are invisible, unless they capture something you only get to know _that_ they move, and you can only capture one if you can deduce that it _has_ to be in a particular spot
00:45:49 <oerjan> well unless the owner player decides it _is_ in a spot, to prevent you from capturing/going somewhere else
00:46:37 <oerjan> but if the owning player cannot give at least one consistent route for where the bishops have been, he loses.
00:46:59 <oerjan> the last could get particularly tricky when you consider the interaction with the _other_ player's bishops...
00:48:51 <oerjan> now one could also imagine a game where you had to sum actual quantum probabilities, but i somehow doubt anyone has the ability to really play that...
00:49:22 <oerjan> even computer assistance might give exponential blowup there
00:49:57 <oerjan> zzo38: is that similar to how that game is?
00:50:13 <oerjan> (not the last part with quantum probs/states)
00:50:26 <zzo38> oerjan: No. It isn't. Although your idea is also a possible idea of a chess variant.
00:50:52 <zzo38> Here is the rule for the Chess with Quantum Bishops that I heard of (my name is on it because I typed it): http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSchesswithquant
00:53:43 <zzo38> But the idea you had, I had something similar, with Invisible Kings Chess, although the move must be made on secret paper.
00:53:55 <oerjan> ah kings, that would be even better of course
00:54:51 <oerjan> i note those quantum bishops can capture a piece other than at their end point...
00:55:27 <zzo38> Yes they can. These are the rules I have been told, by someone else, who also doesn't know who told him
00:57:14 * oerjan finds the alphabetic chess diagram hard to read...
00:57:55 <tswett> Simple chess-with-visibility: you can see an opponent's piece if and only if one of your own pieces can reach it within two moves.
00:58:43 <zzo38> tswett: That is another possible idea. If you have an account on Chess Variants, you can post it?
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00:59:05 <tswett> A pawn can see two moves ahead of it (unless it's near the far row), but not diagonally at all. A rook in a good position can see the whole board.
00:59:11 <tswett> zzo38: I don't have an account there.
00:59:23 <oerjan> tswett: um pawns capture diagonally
00:59:51 <tswett> oerjan: indeed. It may be more interesting if a pawn can only see straight forward, though.
01:00:13 <tswett> So in order for a pawn to capture, some other piece must be able to see the victim.
01:00:25 <zzo38> Or maybe you can use the "Try" rule of Kriegspiel chess?
01:04:25 <tswett> Looks like essentially, with that rule, a pawn can see whether there is a piece in each direction, but not what type of piece it is.
01:05:51 <zzo38> Once I invented a game that seems to be very different from chess: it is one-dimensional, has 72 cells, twelve kind of pieces (one of which is a neutral piece), pieces that affect other pieces when moving (not only the piece it captures), the players have different armies, no check/mate. Yet, actually, it is exactly the same as normal chess.
01:06:45 <zzo38> tswett: What are you refering to? Are you refering to the "Try" rule? If so, that is not quite what it is.
01:08:15 <zzo38> The "Try" rule actually just says whether or not any of your pawns can capture. And then you must try. If you failed, you can try again or you can make a different move.
01:10:04 <tswett> Huh. Perhaps there are multiple variants.
01:11:34 <zzo38> Also, with your idea, sometimes you will not know if you are in check? Some rule must be added to help with this? Such as, either you are told if you are in check, or you can see the checking piece, or you just try and have to try again if you made the wrong move, or something else.
01:12:22 <tswett> Yes, perhaps we should also let kings see pieces that have them in check.
01:12:44 <Sgeo> http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html
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01:15:57 * oerjan wonders if he knows that intercal _has_ an OO extension.
01:28:35 <oerjan> "brilliant bipolar mind", apparently
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02:04:46 <zzo38> Of course in chess with wickets, the Rook can never be the Ball-haver before castling.... I did not pay attention to that at first..... but now I do.
02:16:39 <coppro> zzo38: where do you find these things?
02:17:18 <zzo38> coppro: What things?
02:22:05 <coppro> zzo38: question about Kirby's chess. How does one get a Kirby to be a king?
02:23:04 <zzo38> coppro: You can't, but in case you combine it with a game that has multiple Kings, then you can.
02:23:54 <zzo38> Now I have six types of items listed in my "Invented".
02:24:29 <coppro> also your bland chess problem is impossible to get to in a game
02:24:31 <zzo38> And I highly recomand this one: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSchessvariantsq
02:25:29 <zzo38> coppro: Yes you are right about that. I did not notice that at first, but now I can see that is true. However, in fairy chess sometimes you have positions that are impossible to get to.
02:26:27 <zzo38> Some of these things I did not pay enough attention!
02:27:30 <coppro> zzo38: oh wait... it might be possible if you promote to a bishop
02:28:17 <zzo38> coppro: No, it is not possible. See there is the "p" in the same file. Pawns do not capture in this game so it could not have happened.
02:31:16 <zzo38> Do you believe me? Or have I made another mistake?
02:39:08 <coppro> zzo38: ah, nope, my intuition was correct
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02:51:24 <zzo38> Have you seen my latest additions to TeXnicard?
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03:54:02 <coppro> zzo38: no; I have not been following TeXnicard at all
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04:04:50 <zzo38> coppro,quintopia: OK; but if you are interest and have question, please ask a question/complaint if you have any, please. Or say there is nothing, if you have nothing yet.
04:05:22 <quintopia> i have nothing and i never will have anything because it is not something that interests me :)
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04:14:10 <zzo38> Although would you be able to help with illustrations/diagrams/cartoons in a book of the program?
04:15:32 <coppro> I have little spare time
04:19:53 <zzo38> (O, and also examples, I forgot "examples" in that list above)
04:22:30 <coppro> and when I do have time, my bizarro thing that is ostensibly a relationship seems to take it up
04:22:49 <quintopia> i would consider it. how much does it pay?
04:24:21 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't know yet, if it pays anything at all. But regardless, it is not yet time, please.
04:24:52 <quintopia> i would do it for the right price, but probably not for free ;)
04:25:25 <zzo38> Of course it is GNU GPL and you can sell your own copies (so can anyone) if you want to, including the book, and the computer file. It can also be done selling the book with the DVD for the computer file in the back.
04:29:34 <zzo38> quintopia: OK, I can understand that.
04:32:31 <zzo38> However currently I have no way to pay, but also is not yet time. But I would agree to following: That the illustrations/diagrams/cartoons and the graphics (but not codes) for examples are BY-NC-SA (belonging to the person who made these graphics), that they can sell the book with it, that I also have a license to sell the book with them but must pay royalties, others must contact you first.
04:34:06 <zzo38> But if later I can pay, I might do so even early, to someone who would expect the money, maybe.
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05:45:10 * pikhq declares that everything hates him
05:45:10 <lambdabot> pikhq: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
05:45:33 <oerjan> i assume that was a hate message, then.
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05:45:54 <pikhq> copumpkin: re: lambdabot. Uh? I know not.
05:46:17 <copumpkin> pikhq: I could've sworn you'd linked to a set of heisig stories at some point
05:46:25 <pikhq> I don't recall one.
05:46:41 <Gregor> OK, I've got a tempo knob :)
05:46:44 <pikhq> Fuck. This. Economy.
05:47:00 <pikhq> copumpkin: Well, I'm in a demographic with 50% employment.
05:47:08 <pikhq> copumpkin: As you can imagine, getting a job is very difficult.
05:47:15 <pikhq> And currently, I have no working computer.
05:47:23 <pikhq> Because my power supply broke.
05:47:49 <pikhq> Also, my PS3 broke. I need to reflow it and reapply thermal paste to the GPU/CPU. Can't afford thermal paste.
05:49:03 <pikhq> Colorado Springs, CO, USA
05:49:53 <pikhq> So I'm currently coaxing an old P4 system that's not mine into cooperating with me.
05:50:22 <pikhq> I swear, this thing is a decade old.
05:50:30 <pikhq> Actually, almost exactly that.
05:51:41 <pikhq> Anyways, I have concluded that everything hates me.
05:52:06 <pikhq> Most especially the job market.
05:52:24 <pikhq> It should *not* be difficult to find even a minimum wage job.
05:52:36 <pikhq> And yet, it seems to be impossibly so.
05:53:11 <pikhq> Unless, of course, I want to cease going to college. And fuck that.
05:55:08 <copumpkin> you could transfer to somewhere more "happening" job-wise
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05:56:08 <pikhq> It's not even like I have a hard-to-work-with schedule.
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05:57:59 <pikhq> 12-4 M-W, 10-2 T-Tr. Fuck everyone wanting part-time workers working, say, 10-4 on 3 weekdays a week. That's just fucking cruel.
05:59:58 <pikhq> In completely unrelated news, I have finally found a replacement for Make that I like.
06:00:49 <pikhq> Called "redo". A third-party implementation of a djb idea.
06:00:57 <zzo38> Did anyone win both the Nobel Prize and the Ig Nobel Prize?
06:02:22 <copumpkin> pikhq: anyway, good luck with finding a job and/or a working computer! was wondering where you'd gone
06:02:42 <zzo38> pikhq: How does this "redo" work?
06:03:03 <pikhq> zzo38: Each build rule is a shell script with extension ".do".
06:04:28 <pikhq> To start a build, you call "redo foo". This will just execute foo.do. The command "redo-ifchange" denotes a dependency. If the dependency's timestamp has changed, then redo-ifchange will execute the dependency
06:04:36 <pikhq> 's rule before continuing execution.
06:05:06 <oerjan> zzo38: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andre_Geim
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06:06:32 <pikhq> default.ext.do will create a generic rule for .ext
06:06:48 <pikhq> (default.do, BTW, is also a generic rule)
06:07:09 <pikhq> The shell scripts have 3 arguments passed to them: the first is the target, sans extension, the second is the target's extension, the third is a temporary file that will get renamed to the target upon succesful execution of the build rule.
06:08:06 <zzo38> When I work with my own projects, I do not need any make files or build rules, because it is simple and a few lines of a shell script will do, there are not many files to deal with, some are temporary such as the ".idx", ".toc", ".scm", ".o" (if any), ".log". I usually only distribute the ".w", ".exe", and the compile script (called "compile").
06:08:34 <zzo38> However, for a thing with build rules, that system you describe seems it can help when you need them, certainly good for that kind of things.
06:10:20 <pikhq> It's not more complex than make, it's more flexible than make, and *holy fuck it does spaces in filenames right*.
06:10:54 <zzo38> pikhq: Then, that is good. I did not say it was more complex than make, though.
06:11:08 <pikhq> Yeah, I'm not saying you did.
06:11:12 <pikhq> I'm just saying: :D
06:11:32 <pikhq> Oh, yeah, and there's a subset of its functionality written in 150 lines of shell script.
06:11:43 <pikhq> Not even very dense lines of shell script.
06:14:19 <pikhq> (the shell script doesn't check dependencies; it just does a full build from the top)
06:16:18 <zzo38> I suppose in my system the ".c", ".h" and ".tex" files are also like temporary files, a bit
06:31:05 <zzo38> Is it possible in the redo system, to, make a rule for .do files?
06:32:06 <oerjan> IT'S .DO ALL THE WAY DOWN
06:32:30 <oerjan> that almost should be an INTERCAL (non-error) statement
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06:42:47 <quintopia> i wonder if our minecrafters are gonna get sucked into this one soon also: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/01/21/love-grows-stronger-deeper-cheaper/
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06:52:14 <pikhq> zzo38: Presently, it doesn't have the ability to generate .do files.
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06:52:38 <pikhq> zzo38: Not many technical reasons it couldn't, it's just not yet been implemented.
06:53:49 <pikhq> You can quite easily generate dependencies, though. redo-ifchange is just another command, after all. :)
06:54:56 <pikhq> 3 lines for automatically calculating the dependencies for a C file... :)
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06:55:50 <pikhq> Goodness. It makes the traditional C build-system seem halfway reasonable.
06:56:01 <pikhq> s/build-system/build setup/
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06:58:46 <zzo38> I use make files with other projects, but my own projects I never need a build-system.
06:59:14 <zzo38> Calculating dependencies for a C file, you can check for #include header files, and then you might check for libraries too?
06:59:41 <pikhq> It'll only handle #include headers. Sadly, there's no real automagic way of handling objects.
07:00:10 <pikhq> Well, you *could* rather easily say "For each .c file I want an .o file, and link them together kthx".
07:00:25 <zzo38> And if it includes any #line directives then it usually means the file named in the #line is generating the .c file from it?
07:01:08 <pikhq> DEPS=`echo *.c|sed s/.c/.o/g`;redo-ifchange $DEPS;gcc $DEPS -o foo
07:01:13 <zzo38> Maybe you have to check if you need any -l library also
07:01:47 <pikhq> (note: almost certainly a better way of doing that than piping into sed. At 1 in the morning, my shell magic goes away)
07:01:50 <zzo38> What is traditional C build setup?
07:03:58 <pikhq> Y'know, where you have "compilation units", the only possible interaction between two of them comes courtesy of a preprocessing step, and generally involves there being no easy way of determining what files make up a program?
07:06:13 <pikhq> Causing a lot of fairly unfortunate things, such as building being *very hard* to do right, libraries being a PITA, and whole-program optimization requiring some very low-level changes in the whole thing.
07:07:24 <pikhq> (GCC's implementation involves *inserting sections* into the freaking object files containing an intermediate form of the program which the linker (with a plugin) can parse through so that it can pass the whole chunk back to the compiler)
07:14:56 <zzo38> Is that what happens when I type -fwhole-program ?
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07:18:01 <pikhq> No, that's what happens when you use -flto on GCC 4.5 or 4.6.
07:18:08 <pikhq> (note: buggy as hell on 4.5)
07:19:14 <pikhq> -fwhole-program makes GCC assume that what's been passed on the command line represents the whole program, thereby allowing it to make a few more assumptions...
07:20:04 <pikhq> (most notably that no symbols can be accessed unless a pointer gets passed outside of the program)
07:22:51 <pikhq> Huh. Lions used to live in North America.
07:23:12 <pikhq> Panthera leo atrox went extinct ~11,000 years ago.
07:23:17 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but my computer is not.
07:23:30 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/gr2au/ive_hit_rock_bottom_advice/
07:23:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Am I a bad person for immediately thinking "duh, that's what happens when you dedicate your life to living off a parent."
07:25:38 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: From the sounds of it, it's more that his mother was taking advantage of him. "Just to repeat, at the time I was almost exclusively helping care for my brother until he left."
07:26:16 <Phantom_Hoover> (Could this be Sgeo in another life? WE MAY NEVER KNOW.)
07:26:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Sometimes I wonder if I should stop with the Sgeo mocking.
07:26:55 <pikhq> Taking care of a fairly disabled person is not exactly mooching...
07:27:24 <pikhq> And a parent allowing it to happen at the expense of other, fairly basic needs (college, social life, job, etc.) is not exactly helpful.
07:30:08 <pikhq> And then booting him out after having basically used him for 6 years with nothing to show for it?
07:30:16 <pikhq> Damned near abusive, really.
07:32:05 <quintopia> eh i know a guy who pays the entirety of the mortgage of the house he lives in, despite not having his name anywhere on the deed. (his mom, father-in-law, and brother-in-law own it but pay nothing to stay there)
07:32:33 <zzo38> Then he should write his name somewhere on the deed!
07:32:38 <quintopia> we've told him to get the fuck out of there, but he feelsl like that would basically be dooming his mother to be homeless, and she can't work, so...
07:33:08 <pikhq> quintopia: I'm pretty sure that gives him an ownership interest, and if push came to shove he could get the deed.
07:33:09 <quintopia> zzo38: then he'd have to pay those people the first 10 years worth of the mortgage to buy them out, which he doesn't have the money for
07:33:13 <pikhq> (presuming common law)
07:33:39 <pikhq> quintopia: He'd have to explain the situation to a lawyer.
07:33:51 <pikhq> quintopia: That's, uh, about the full extent of it that I'm aware of.
07:34:18 <pikhq> "People have ended up fully paying for a house loan that there name isn't on, and sued for ownership succesfully."
07:34:49 <quintopia> yes but he's only paying all the current payments on it
07:34:58 <quintopia> he will never be able to pay for the first ten years of it
07:35:17 <pikhq> Also, even if he didn't do that, he'd be pretty damned hard to kick out: as he is paying for it, he is renting, and so they'd have to go through the full eviction process.
07:35:35 <zzo38> I meant, write his name on there without removing the names that are already there
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07:35:48 <quintopia> well, it's not that he minds living there, and they would never kick him out
07:35:48 <pikhq> (note: actually pressing this with family involved may be difficult, because that's his freaking family.)
07:35:55 <quintopia> it's just that he doesn't want to pay anymore
07:36:17 <pikhq> He may wish to talk with them.
07:36:17 <zzo38> Too bad, if you have a house to live at, you have to pay!
07:36:35 <quintopia> zzo38: then why isn't everyone else there paying?
07:37:35 <quintopia> but yeah i agree he needs to somehow get those people to pay or give him the deed, even if it means threatening his own mother with a lawsuit :/
07:37:54 <zzo38> quintopia: I think they should pay too, isn't it?
07:37:58 <pikhq> It is most definitely *not* a healthy situation.
07:38:33 <pikhq> At a minimum, get them agree to help pay the mortgage... And get it in writing.
07:40:19 <zzo38> Yes, they should probably do that.
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07:41:35 * pikhq is feeling a bit Russian ATM
07:45:43 <zzo38> Sometimes in C programming there is something where + or | or ^ can be used all of them can work, which are considered best? Does it depend on anything?
07:46:55 <pikhq> Pick whichever is most clear in context; modern compilers *will* choose whichever is fastest.
07:47:39 <pikhq> (basic arithmetic is one of the few things where actually generating *optimal* code isn't too hard)
07:47:40 <zzo38> How can the compiler necessarily know if such a situation exists?
07:48:01 <zzo38> (Assume where both operands are non-constant)
07:48:20 <pikhq> Oh, "both operands are non-constant"? Okay, that throws shit out.
07:48:54 <pikhq> Beats me; probably varies depending on ISA or CPU.
07:49:04 <pikhq> Pick whichever is most clear in context.
07:49:42 <pikhq> Unless, of course, you can show that doing otherwise nets you worthwhile performance gains.
07:50:23 <zzo38> In case of constants, sometimes you might be able to know by the compiler, probably, such as: (x<<4)|0x5 then you can put ^ or + instead it still works (but | is probably most clearly).
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07:51:15 <pikhq> There's rather a lot of clever stuff you can do with arithmetic when constants are known.
07:52:57 <zzo38> But in other complicated cases with non-constant, it is difficult. It could be made a macro using #define that is defined as such, and then use this macro. And redefine it when compiling on a computer that is different in case it depending on ISA or CPU.
07:53:32 <pikhq> Yeah, but doing that is only going to matter much in a handful of cases.
07:53:55 <pikhq> In the general case, programmer time is more important than CPU time.
07:55:07 <pikhq> In the specific case, you end up producing code like that of x264.
07:55:34 <quintopia> the only place it could make a difference is in the inner loop of a something that happens a LOT. like the only line in a loop happening 1000^3 times in a row
07:56:13 <pikhq> There is another place it could make a difference, BTW.
07:56:31 <pikhq> If one opcode is smaller than the other, than making the wrong choice *could* produce cache misses.
07:56:55 <quintopia> sure if you use the longer opcode a thousand time inline
07:57:25 <quintopia> i'm going to reject that case as insignificant also
07:57:26 <pikhq> But given general coding habits, I don't think many people actually give a damn about caching at all.
07:58:19 <pikhq> And a handful of programmers working on high-performance code.
07:59:07 <quintopia> i think "except for x264, it doesn't matter" pretty much covers it
07:59:33 <pikhq> Well, there *are* other video encoders. :P
08:00:04 <pikhq> Just not many *quite* as dependent on uberoptimisation to get encoding in real time.
08:00:04 <zzo38> I would say I guess, I would care if writing an assembly language program, for sure. But in C, it is different for different computer, usually it doesn't matter and | is usually the mostly clearly one to use, at least to me it is.
08:00:51 <pikhq> Anyways, the general rule on optimisation covers this. "Don't unless you can show it's actually fucking worth it."
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08:01:49 <pikhq> quintopia: Incidentally, x264 actually cares extensively about L1 misses. I'm not fucking kidding.
08:02:57 <quintopia> i was thinking of systems programmers in regards to L2 misses, since they give a much bigger penalty. i assume x264 started caring about L1 misses once they'd shaved off every L2 miss they could
08:03:37 <pikhq> It is optimised to the point that L1 misses actually make a measurable difference.
08:06:46 <pikhq> Probably helps that it has an extensive number of very tight loops running dozens of times per frame.
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08:24:17 <oklofok> it was fucking pathetic, but nice try i guess :D
08:24:40 <pikhq> I think I managed that after the linear algebra binge I had earlier this week.
08:25:02 <pikhq> Note to self: putting off 2.5 months of homework until the week it's all do is a bad idea.
08:25:41 <oklofok> better that than putting it off until it's all *don't*!
08:26:15 <pikhq> My *recent* procrastination habits are a major improvement over my past habits.
08:26:25 <pikhq> I'm passing classes now!
08:26:38 <oklofok> i actually never need to pass another class
08:26:56 <oklofok> unless i want a degree past math
08:27:10 <pikhq> Yeah, it's kinda a bad thing to fail classes your freshman year.
08:27:40 <oklofok> i did! i failed this course called "introduction to computers" or something where we learned to excel
08:28:26 <fizzie> I failed our "orientation for studying" class by sleeping when I was supposed to go to a "library exercise".
08:28:37 <fizzie> Then I redid on my fifth year or se.
08:29:16 <oklofok> i almost failed my bachelor's thesis seminar thingie because i skipped a library exercise
08:29:18 <pikhq> Try doing it on actually relevant classes.
08:29:37 <pikhq> Retaking calc III and physics I is t3h sucks.
08:29:42 <oklofok> pikhq: well i have attended like 5 lectures this year
08:29:48 <oklofok> they aren't mandatory here
08:29:53 <pikhq> Oh, well, physics I is actually completely *irrelevant*.
08:29:57 <pikhq> But you know what I mean.
08:30:39 <oklofok> you know, i knew what you meant until you said that, suddenly i'm not so sure
08:31:12 <pikhq> oklofok: Is physics relevant to a CS degree?
08:32:55 <oklofok> calculus isn't all that useful either in cs afaik
08:33:16 <pikhq> No, but I'm also wanting a math degree.
08:33:20 <oklofok> but at least it has some brain expansive properties
08:33:38 <pikhq> And calculus is pretty dang relevant to a math degree.
08:33:39 <fizzie> While physics can be used to expand... some entirely other regions.
08:33:55 <oklofok> fizzie: too much information
08:34:13 <oklofok> i already know statistics gives you a boner
08:34:28 <pikhq> fizzie: SCIENCE FETISHIST!
08:36:41 <oklofok> so about my dream, a proper coloring f is an assignment of numbers to vertices without edges uv such that f(u) = f(v); the list coloring number of graph G is the smallest number l such that if you give each vertex a list of color choices of size l, you can choose a color for each vertex in their list so that the coloring is proper
08:37:56 <oklofok> that was the coloring part, then let's talk about flows
08:38:49 * pikhq wonders at the bizarre math education scheme
08:39:41 <pikhq> arithmetic -> more arithmetic -> some geometry -> some algebra -> some geometry -> some algebra -> some trigonometry -> FIN
08:39:56 <oklofok> an orientation of a graph means you choose a direction for each edge (talking about finite undirected graphs here), an everywhere nonzero flow on G is an orientation of G plus a function f assigning whole numbers to edges such that sum of incoming stuff = sum of outgoing stuff, and no vertex has zero flow coming in
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08:40:45 <oklofok> now there is this rather non-old (80's) theorem that says that every graph has such a flow using just numbers 0...5 on the edges
08:41:23 <oklofok> and even weirder, even the fact that for all G there exists any everywhere nonzero flow at all was proven only in 76
08:41:40 <oklofok> my dream was about proving this theorem from 76
08:42:36 <oklofok> and umm, what i did was i confused the nonzero flow number with the list coloring number, and tried to prove that every graph has a k such that from lists of size k you can always find a coloring
08:42:47 <oklofok> and i seriously thought about this for some time
08:43:56 <oklofok> and without realizing i had the wrong definition, in about a second i realized that it's obvious that k = number of vertices works, and simply because of K_7, 6 is not enough for all graphs and thus i must have the wrong definition
08:44:09 <oklofok> i mean, without realizing i was proving the wrong theorem
08:44:34 <oklofok> so that's pretty much definitive proof that math is just off when i sleep.
08:45:45 <oklofok> but again, i thank my dream director for trying
08:45:58 * oklofok notices pikhq said something
08:48:00 <oklofok> so if i understood correctly, they are trying some new notation for the division algorithm (i mean the algorithm you use to divide numbers), and some teachers decided to try to teach both the old and the new notation to kids
08:48:05 <oklofok> and no one learned to divide
08:48:45 <oklofok> because given 6/9, they didn't know which algorithm was the correct one to run
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08:51:18 <oklofok> well i was gonna give him some quality math but i guess the man doesn't appreciate quality
08:54:43 <oklofok> so a quasiorder is a<a, a<b<a => a=a, a<b<c => a<c; given graph G and edge e = uv, contraction of e means you remove u and v, and put vertex e back instead, all connections from u and v going to e now; a minor is the quasiorder obtained from having H<G if H is (isomorphic to) a subgraph of G, and having H<G if H is G with some edge contracted (i think!)
08:55:51 <oklofok> that if you have an infinite sequence G_1, G_2, G_3, ..., then there exist i, j such that G_i is a minor of G_j
08:56:30 <oklofok> the minor relation is obviously a quasiorder, and this also makes it a well-order
08:57:03 <oklofok> the fun thing is the minor theorem was proven in a sequence of articles containing about 500 pages put together
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09:11:40 <zzo38> I found some stupid game show answers. "Who is the only Marx brother that remained silent throughout all their films?" "Karl." "What is the capital of Italy?" "France." "Name something people believe in but cannot see." "Hitler."
09:19:20 <oklofok> there are marx brothers who did films?
09:37:30 <zzo38> __TT___ ____ __ TH_ _________ (What are you doing?)
09:39:08 <zzo38> "BATTLE HYMN OF THE REPUBLIC" fits neither the template nor the category.
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09:56:58 <Vorpal> <oklofok> there are marx brothers who did films? <-- come on, even I know that
09:57:13 <Vorpal> oklofok, iirc they were back in the pre-colour movie era.
09:58:00 <Vorpal> (that is about how much I know about them, wouldn't be able to answer the question zzo38 quoted)
10:00:43 <oklofok> well i have this really vague feeling i've heard
10:01:10 <oklofok> but then i go "or was it the wright brothers?"
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10:01:47 <Vorpal> oklofok, the latter I think invented the first working motorised airplane
10:02:41 <oklofok> or one of the first at least
10:02:59 <oklofok> i've heard some conspiracy theories about this
10:03:04 <Vorpal> oklofok, well, it is they who got the credit for the invention at least
10:03:54 <Vorpal> oklofok, there were previous inventors who could have gotten it working. Some were too early, the internal combustion engine was not yet invented. Some died in experiments gone wrong.
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14:11:53 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/gr65o/18_year_old_reports_rape_police_dont_trust_her/c1ppnc2
14:12:49 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not like their job is to objectively analyse and attempt to cure my problems, rather than to be nice.
14:17:09 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell elliott Looks like ED has actually been replaced for good.
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17:03:10 <Sgeo> elliott: Arm actually said something that made sense!
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17:21:26 <Vorpal> elliott: "In mid-2003 Introversion began selling the source code for the game, along with other tools on the Uplink Developer CD." <-- hmm!
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18:23:36 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:23:48 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover said 4h 6m 38s ago: Looks like ED has actually been replaced for good.
18:24:35 <elliott> Not even a database backup?
18:24:57 <elliott> Anyway, someone help me; I can't press the numbers above 0 and less than 9 on my laptop. `, which is right next to the successor of 0, works
18:25:04 <elliott> Even with Fn or Alt or shift
18:25:46 <oklofok> i can do my best to help you
18:26:23 <elliott> 0 is at the right side of the numbers, dumbo
18:27:09 <Vorpal> elliott, <Vorpal> elliott: "In mid-2003 Introversion began selling the source code for the game, along with other tools on the Uplink Developer CD." <-- hmm! <-- however I can now add that bit rot quotient is high. Not worth the effort.
18:27:32 <oklofok> what do you mean side of numbers, numbres don't have sides
18:27:37 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, they offer Darwinia as access to a svn repository, which is way cooler :P
18:27:44 <elliott> oklofok: it's `(numbers less than 9)90
18:27:46 <oklofok> that's not what geometry of numbers is lol :DDDD
18:28:01 <oklofok> elliott: okay i think i'm getting it
18:28:01 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway uplink: lots of weird g++ errors
18:28:18 <Vorpal> ./app/dos2unix.h:6:38: error: expected class-name before ‘{’ token <-- as far as I can tell there is no error there for example
18:28:21 <oklofok> so i guess you know more about fingers than me
18:28:38 <elliott> Vorpal: Use gcc 9-...uh or something :P
18:28:42 <oklofok> i just know http://www.3news.co.nz/New-Zealand-man-cooked-and-ate-his-finger/tabid/423/articleID/207216/Default.aspx
18:28:44 <Vorpal> elliott, this is after sed-ing around to fix iostream.h -> iostream and such, otherwise I don't get this far
18:28:45 <elliott> I dunno how to formulate that number with only 9, 0 and arithmetic
18:28:57 <elliott> anyway, Vorpal, plz to be helping
18:29:16 <monqy> then go from there
18:29:21 <Vorpal> elliott, plus there is a perl script used in the make file that is missing, it seems to encrypt strings in some source files. For now I changed it to skip that step, since the perl script is nowhere to be found!
18:29:27 <elliott> Vorpal: try g++ (9/9)+(9/9)+(9/9)
18:29:27 <monqy> 9/9 + 9/9 + 9/9 + 9/9 + 9/9
18:30:00 <elliott> it was released in two thousand and one
18:30:00 <Vorpal> elliott, RIGHT. That would be painful
18:30:07 <oklofok> (9/9)+(9/9) and (9/9)+(9/9)+(9/9) are next to each other on the keyboard so it's understandable
18:30:18 <elliott> was gcc three mature in say nine-teen ninety nine?
18:30:24 <Vorpal> elliott, chances of getting it to run on my system... are low
18:30:58 <oklofok> elliott: okay here goes: finger on NINE then go left but be careful
18:31:00 <Vorpal> elliott, not sure I care enough though
18:31:02 <elliott> "It may be that the act of actually cutting off his finger (and eating its flesh) made staff take him more seriously and provide the care and understanding that he longed for."
18:31:13 <elliott> Vorpal: so did you pyrate the game
18:31:18 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway helping with what? "<elliott> anyway, Vorpal, plz to be helping"
18:31:39 <elliott> Vorpal: that's what happens when i run over my number row
18:31:42 <oklofok> elliott: seriously this time i got it right
18:31:44 <elliott> fn+, alt+, shift+, nothing works
18:31:48 <elliott> xev does not report any events
18:31:53 <elliott> keyboard is otherwise functioning perfectly
18:32:08 <Vorpal> elliott, not the game no. I found a friend who had it, and didn't play it any more. The dev cd, yes
18:32:30 <elliott> i would have given you it, but no optical drive
18:32:34 <elliott> well i don't think the superdrive works in linux
18:32:37 <elliott> also, i dunno where the disk is
18:32:39 <elliott> also, i'm lazy and it's cheao
18:33:15 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, getting the game itself isn't that hard to get to work. In fact I think if I had used my laptop with ubuntu lts it would have worked out of box. Because I copied all the .so's that I needed from it.
18:33:21 <elliott> has some fucking javascript
18:33:24 <elliott> selecting a whole paragraph
18:33:45 <elliott> Vorpal: is there a version of noscript that only blocks shit like that? :)
18:34:03 <Vorpal> elliott, you could select "globally enable scripts" and then leave it at that until you run into a site like this
18:34:18 <elliott> i'd have to use firefox, though :(
18:34:41 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't there a version for chrome?
18:34:55 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, just turning off javascript for now should work even in chrome
18:34:57 <elliott> no official noscript, chrome does have js blocking features
18:35:00 <Vorpal> or doesn't it have the option?
18:35:05 <elliott> but i think it's only off-by-default
18:35:12 <Vorpal> elliott, well, you could enable them for now?
18:35:16 <elliott> (with a UI for whitelisting quickly)
18:35:23 <elliott> http://cdn2.techie-buzz.com/images/postimg/arpit/BlockJavaScrip.NoScriptsfeaturesinChrome_18B/disablejavascriptchromenoscriptextension.png
18:35:55 <elliott> because i can't type my password
18:35:57 <Vorpal> elliott, I find that quick whitelisting is really quick. And a shitload of sites load much faster without js. So if you have an old computer like I do, noscript is worth it.
18:36:03 <elliott> because it has digits that are not 9 or 0 in it
18:36:15 <Vorpal> <elliott> because it has digits that are not 9 or 0 in it <-- what?
18:36:25 <elliott> <elliott> Vorpal: that's what happens when i run over my number row
18:36:25 <elliott> <oklofok> elliott: seriously this time i got it right
18:36:25 <elliott> <elliott> fn+, alt+, shift+, nothing works
18:36:25 <elliott> <elliott> xev does not report any events
18:36:26 <elliott> <elliott> keyboard is otherwise functioning perfectly
18:36:50 <Vorpal> elliott, is this your macbook air?
18:37:02 <Vorpal> elliott, does it work from OS X?
18:37:05 <elliott> this happened before a reboot btw
18:37:13 <elliott> i was actually cleaning my keyboard
18:37:21 <Vorpal> elliott, oh damn. With what?
18:37:22 <elliott> it was at the password prompt since i hadn't realised i'd put it on stand-by
18:37:32 <elliott> Vorpal: oh, i think i just enabled something
18:37:45 <Vorpal> elliott, oh. Right. Any clue what?
18:37:51 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:37:51 <elliott> i thought maybe some number pad mode, but no
18:38:01 <elliott> i'll try os x now... but since it persisted across a reboot i'm not hopeful
18:38:05 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, if you are at gdm, look at the lower edge of the screen iirc.
18:38:15 <Vorpal> elliott, there is some "keyboard layout" thing
18:38:21 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc only after you typed user name
18:38:24 <Vorpal> elliott, but before password
18:38:26 <elliott> isn't that just language setting
18:38:33 <Vorpal> elliott, not sure. Worth checking anyway
18:39:01 -!- elliott has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:39:04 <Vorpal> elliott, also try holding down shift for a time, could be some accessabilty thing (doesn't explain 1-8 though)
18:39:07 -!- elliott has joined.
18:39:11 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott, also try holding down shift for a time, could be some accessabilty thing (doesn't explain 1-8 though)
18:39:20 <elliott> Vorpal: It's not. Same result in OS X.
18:39:26 <Vorpal> elliott, so broken hw?
18:39:37 <Vorpal> elliott, what the fuck did you do when cleaning keyboard
18:39:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Maybe. I need to figure out if you can reset the keyboard controller somehow.
18:39:42 <oklofok> elliott: solution #2, use Vorpal's keyboard, "<Vorpal> elliott, also try holding down shift for a time, could be some accessabilty thing (doesn't explain 1-8 though)"
18:39:44 <elliott> I did absolutely nothing, srs
18:40:13 <Vorpal> elliott, on screen keyboard might solve password
18:40:23 <elliott> Vorpal: uh yeah that is sort of not a long-term solution
18:40:37 <oklofok> being useful is something i like being good at
18:40:53 <elliott> Vorpal: i believe so, i'd rather they didn't find all my goat porn though
18:41:09 <elliott> Vorpal: also they might decide Linux is a warranty-voider :)
18:41:33 <elliott> iirc occasionally they decide to just give you a new one
18:41:44 <elliott> do they literally copy the HD over ala dd
18:41:48 <elliott> or do they just copy the OS X files
18:41:58 <elliott> also it boots into linux unless you hold down opt, so yeah
18:42:05 <Vorpal> elliott, okay how much of the keyboard circuits can you access? You could try checking with a multimeter if the signal reaches the controller at all
18:42:17 <elliott> now you are just trolling me :)
18:42:22 <Vorpal> elliott, no, I'm serious
18:42:24 <elliott> one, i don't have a multimeter
18:42:32 <elliott> two, my access is zero, unless i like
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18:42:38 <elliott> unscrewed the ultra-tiny screws
18:42:42 <elliott> somehow punched past the battery stuff
18:42:53 <elliott> poked a hole in the unified circuit board
18:43:01 <elliott> then maybe i could access the keyboard circuit.
18:43:09 <Vorpal> elliott, sorry, I'm used to the kind of computer where they consider the palm rest with the touchpad user replacable (yes, lenovo did that)
18:43:25 <Vorpal> I'm not sure I agree, it was rather fiddly
18:43:52 <elliott> Heck, maybe Apple have just decided that those digits aren't important enough for the space they take on the keyboard controller, and then updated my hardware in-place as I slept.
18:44:06 <Vorpal> sounds like apple yeah
18:44:15 <elliott> ".XXX domains go live.. will browsers automatically open .xxx sites in private browsing mode?"
18:44:19 <elliott> first good justification for .xxx ever :D
18:44:23 <Vorpal> joke aside, if it is hardware issue, you don't have much choice except using the warranty
18:44:51 <elliott> mashing the digit keys REAL HARD does nothing
18:44:58 <oklopol> the other day my crt started being all screwy so i turned it off for a while and now it's fine again
18:45:09 <elliott> NO BUT I AM HOLDING DOWN SHIFT LIKE VORPAL SAID
18:45:56 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and, if this is not the keyboard controller but something broken by cleaning it, then I will call apple "shit build quality"-company
18:46:19 <Vorpal> anyway I very much doubt you can access or re-program the keyboard controller without opening the computer
18:46:26 <Vorpal> unless the world changed a lot recently
18:46:34 <elliott> Let's put it this way: it is impossible to access under the kesy.
18:46:44 -!- oklofok has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:46:45 <elliott> You can barely fit your nail in the tiny tiny gap.
18:46:54 <elliott> And it's impossible to fit it in enough to lift the key.
18:46:59 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm having some visions of upgrading firmware on this old PS/2 keyboard now XD
18:47:02 <elliott> Nothing has physically happened to the keyboard controller.
18:47:23 <Vorpal> elliott, so how did you clean the keyboard? Not lifting keys?
18:47:40 <elliott> I will retract this statement if it turns out that one to eight form a row for the keyboard...
18:47:46 <elliott> The matrixes are fucked up enough to allow that, right?
18:48:12 <Vorpal> elliott, the matrices on a keyboard are so fucked up that nothing makes sense without seeing the matrix
18:48:24 <Vorpal> they usually do not correspond at all with the physical layout
18:48:28 <elliott> at least i still have my smilies
18:48:43 <elliott> Vorpal: right, so it's unlikely that those digits are consecutive in one thing that could break separately
18:49:07 <Vorpal> elliott, well you said shift, ctrl, and fn were broken
18:49:19 <elliott> Just that shift+x ctrl+x fn+x does nothing for x in one to nine
18:49:35 <Vorpal> elliott, oh, but 1-8 you said before?
18:53:03 <elliott> With acid-state-0.3, you can use regular Haskell data structures
18:53:03 <elliott> without worrying about data loss or durability. Your state will simply
18:53:03 <elliott> always be available to you even after software crashes or power
18:53:11 <elliott> if only i could type exclamation marks
18:53:20 <Sgeo> elliott, I'm writing a rename function
18:53:24 <Sgeo> To deal with conflicts
18:53:35 <elliott> why are you wasting your time
18:53:38 <elliott> the library has no conflicts
18:53:58 <elliott> anyway renaming is just... setq?
18:54:01 <Sgeo> Yes, because no one can ever write their own libraries
18:54:20 <elliott> Sgeo: oh, i forgot you specialise in caring intensely about stupid hypotheticals
18:55:01 <Sgeo> elliott, that doesn't help in the event of a public function using another public function that happens to collide
18:55:07 <Ilari> Next weekend could be good time to take a look at global allocation rates 15th and after.
18:55:13 <Sgeo> Anyway, rename is trivial once I understood what to do
18:55:21 <elliott> nothing will solve that fundamentally
18:55:26 <elliott> since you could use any layers of parsing and eval
18:55:55 <elliott> (de test () (run-this "(colliding-function)"))
18:56:29 <Sgeo> http://sprunge.us/EPXi
18:56:49 <elliott> 19:55 elliott: (de test () (run-this "(colliding-function)"))
18:56:52 <elliott> that will not be able to solve this.
18:57:32 -!- FireFly has joined.
18:58:09 <elliott> "Assuming you start the Haskell runtime up only once (like this), on my machine, making a function call from C into Haskell, passing an Int back and forth across the boundary, takes about 80,000 cycles (31,000 ns on my Core 2) -- determined experimentally via the rdstc register"
18:58:17 <elliott> haha when i was eighty thousand
19:00:57 <elliott> bleh so Vorpal any smart ideas :)
19:02:11 <elliott> I wonder if Niki and the Robots will be a decent game or just a Haskell tech demo.
19:02:32 <Vorpal> elliott, for the keyboard? Well not really no. Since you have no multimeter and a machine that is more or less a black box
19:02:55 <elliott> I want answers based in RANDOM SPECULATION
19:03:19 <Vorpal> elliott, you could try directing a tachyon flow with reversed polarity at it then
19:05:23 <Ilari> Oh, Global allocations for 15th: 91 136 IPv4 addresses (16x/32 and 6x/48 in IPv6 front).
19:11:22 <Vorpal> elliott, Bah, young kids today! Complaining about missing 1-8! Now when I was young we had to go uphill both ways to access even the single key a!
19:11:38 <elliott> your MOM has the single key a
19:12:18 <oklopol> i was being SARCASTIC by the way
19:12:22 <elliott> system management controller
19:12:34 <elliott> controls fans, lihts, power, cpu speed
19:12:48 <Vorpal> elliott, oh, on classical PPC macs you could "zap PRAM" by holding down some key combo at start
19:12:52 <Vorpal> fixing some weird issues
19:13:03 <Vorpal> elliott, is this something similar?
19:13:04 <elliott> but not so many issues as SOME people thought
19:13:10 <elliott> "I'm having troubles with my Mac" "ZAP THE PRAM"
19:13:18 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed, what the hell was the PRAM for?
19:13:21 <elliott> Vorpal: No, the equivalent nowadays is permissions[exclamation mark]
19:13:28 <elliott> "I'm having trou-" "Use Disk Utility to fix the permissions"
19:13:55 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant "is this something similar" in the "does it fill the same technical purpose"
19:14:08 <elliott> Resetting the System Management Controller (SMC)
19:14:08 <elliott> Resetting the SMC on Mac portables with a battery you can remove
19:14:09 <elliott> Resetting the SMC on portables with a battery you should not remove on your own
19:14:11 <elliott> best way to categorise ever
19:14:25 <Vorpal> elliott, the latter I guess?
19:14:28 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't think so, I think open firmware nvram is the closest?
19:14:37 <elliott> shift-control-option and power button
19:14:38 <Vorpal> elliott, what was the nvram for?
19:14:41 <elliott> and release all of them simultaneously
19:14:51 <Vorpal> elliott, at the same time?
19:14:57 <Vorpal> elliott, come on, you are only human
19:14:59 <elliott> Vorpal: shut down computer, shift-control-option-powerkey
19:15:09 <Vorpal> how fast does it sample the keyboard
19:15:09 <Sgeo> http://sprunge.us/BFNf
19:15:17 <Vorpal> elliott, remember you have to release them IN THE SAME SAMPLE
19:15:27 -!- elliott has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:15:30 <Vorpal> elliott, which is utterly silly
19:15:51 <oklopol> elliott: on a related note, you are rather unhateful nowadays, have you started smoking weed or something?
19:17:08 -!- elliott has joined.
19:18:15 <Vorpal> elliott, so warranty it is. Copy the image of ubuntu then remove it?
19:18:34 <Vorpal> elliott, backup external hdd?
19:18:47 <Vorpal> elliott, or just copy what you need from it, then do the install manually after?
19:18:54 <elliott> what I need is also several gigs
19:19:39 <Vorpal> elliott, come on a backup external hdd is just a few hundred SEK. Not sure what that is £. 10-20 £ maybe?
19:20:10 <elliott> I'd just rather explore every other option first because installing Ubuntu on this was a BITCH.
19:20:27 <elliott> also, it would almost certainly take weeks, which is lame
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19:25:30 <elliott> Gregor: If you don't fix my computer, Fythe will be unable to handle numbers from one to eight, inclusively.
19:28:47 <oklopol> elliott: i had another idea, have you considered using your keyboard *before* it stopped working?
19:28:59 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:29:17 <monqy> do you have any virtual keyboards
19:31:19 <elliott> that's uh, kinda inconvenient
19:32:15 <elliott> can someone say an octothorpe
19:32:20 <elliott> i want to join a new channel but option+three won't work
19:34:27 -!- Slereah has joined.
19:36:40 <elliott> you are all terrible people
19:36:49 <elliott> i can't even type a bot trigger to ask a bot to do it for me
19:41:00 <Gregor> elliott: That's not much of a ransom demand since it's my repo :P
19:42:55 <elliott> Gregor: I will simply be unable to write code to handle one to eight
19:43:32 <Gregor> It already handles one to eight :P
19:43:41 <Gregor> And besides that, I too am a codar
19:45:09 <Gregor> http://9gag.com/gag/104879/ The best cat
19:45:41 <elliott> step two, make site get all content from reddit
19:47:27 <Gregor> http://i.imgur.com/Y1HPH.jpg The best cat
19:48:40 <Vorpal> Gregor, finally a cat picture that *isn't* cute.
19:48:57 <Vorpal> because while it is awesome, you can't call it cute
20:05:29 <Vorpal> elliott, ugh, uplink is littered with inline asm
20:05:48 <Vorpal> elliott, where does x86_64 keep the frame pointer
20:05:53 <Vorpal> I need to rewrite this bit
20:05:59 <Vorpal> elliott, *which register*
20:06:17 <Vorpal> that is what I'm trying to translate
20:06:42 <Gregor> It's more common to vomit it on x86_64 than on x86 though.
20:06:43 <Vorpal> elliott, it is a pointer
20:06:46 <elliott> if it's a pointer that's fine
20:07:12 <Vorpal> anyway I doubt this is critical, the code seems to be for generating a back trace
20:07:58 <Vorpal> /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/4.5.2/../../../../include/c++/4.5.2/bits/fstream.tcc:837:5: error: ‘int std::basic_filebuf<_CharT, _Traits>::sync() [with _CharT = char, _Traits = std::char_traits<char>]’ is protected
20:08:33 <Vorpal> this is in "dos2unixbuf::sync", the name scares me
20:09:53 <Vorpal> /bin/sh: ./configure: /bin/sh^M: bad interpreter: No such file or directory
20:11:46 <elliott> i like how you need to use dos-to-unix to get some code called dostounix to work
20:11:59 <elliott> <Vorpal> /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/4.5.2/../../../../include/c++/4.5.2/bits/fstream.tcc:837:5: error: ‘int std::basic_filebuf<_CharT, _Traits>::sync() [with _CharT = char, _Traits = std::char_traits<char>]’ is protected
20:12:05 <elliott> Vorpal: the code is initiating a bad template
20:12:09 <elliott> it will tell you where in the source file
20:12:27 <oklopol> argh, the only toenail i want to bite is just out of reach
20:12:51 <oklopol> i can reach it's corner but not the part that's really screwy
20:13:22 <oklopol> maybe i should try that yoga thing
20:17:13 -!- news-ham has joined.
20:17:18 <oklopol> well i have no idea where the nearest scissors are
20:17:21 <news-ham> Croat generals jailed for crimes: Two Croatian military leaders are jailed for war crimes committed in the 1990s, provoking anger in Zagreb where many regard them as war heroes. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-europe-13092438
20:18:48 <elliott> oerjan: cheney on the mta is not just implemented in scheme
20:18:58 <elliott> the "standard" version uses setjmp/longjmp, mind you
20:19:20 <elliott> 00:43:12: * oerjan imagines that like a game where the bishops are invisible, unless they capture something you only get to know _that_ they move, and you can only capture one if you can deduce that it _has_ to be in a particular spot
20:19:20 <elliott> 00:45:49: <oerjan> well unless the owner player decides it _is_ in a spot, to prevent you from capturing/going somewhere else
20:19:20 <elliott> 00:46:37: <oerjan> but if the owning player cannot give at least one consistent route for where the bishops have been, he loses.
20:19:20 <elliott> 00:46:59: <oerjan> the last could get particularly tricky when you consider the interaction with the _other_ player's bishops...
20:19:23 <elliott> sounds like a computer could help :)
20:20:26 <oklopol> that might actually be a lot of fun, done right
20:20:34 <elliott> now apply it to _all_ pieces
20:20:43 <oklopol> then it would probably suck
20:21:03 <elliott> i don't like how the owner can decide it's somewhere, though
20:21:07 <elliott> it should always be up to the rules
20:21:10 <oklopol> but a really simplistic game based on having visible and invisible pieces that use the same simple moving rules
20:21:34 <oklopol> and the invisible ones can only be killed by forcing them on some square and attacking it
20:21:38 <elliott> "This essay is yet another attempt to reconcile the power of the Lisp programming language with the inability of the Lisp community to reproduce their pre-AI Winter achievements."
20:21:53 <elliott> so basically, "You guys discovered AI isn't as easy as it looks: YOUR FAULT"
20:22:23 <elliott> "Now make this thought experiment interesting: Imagine adding object orientation to the C and Scheme programming languages. Making Scheme object-oriented is a sophomore homework assignment. On the other hand, adding object orientation to C requires the programming chops of Bjarne Stroustrup."
20:22:29 <elliott> you can implement objects in a small file of C
20:22:32 <elliott> then it's just syntactic sugar
20:23:01 <elliott> this article is just a rambling form of the old boring argument "MACROS = YOU ALL USE YOUR OWN INDIVIDUAL DIALECT OF LISP AND IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO COLLABORATE LOL"
20:23:27 <elliott> "In a world where teams of talented academics were needed to write Haskell, one man, Dr. Tarver wrote Qi all by his lonesome."
20:23:29 <oklopol> i gather you're reading something now
20:23:38 <elliott> if he means implementation he's obviously wrong, jhc was written mostly by one person to start with
20:23:43 <elliott> oklopol: 01:12:44: <Sgeo> http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html
20:24:13 <oklopol> i assume you wrote that because how else could the author know the exact opposites of your opinions
20:24:45 <elliott> i don't disagree with all of it
20:24:49 <elliott> i just think it's a stupid article
20:25:01 <elliott> "Answer: The Lisp Curse kicks in. Every second or third serious Lisp hacker will roll his own implementation of lazy evaluation, functional purity, arrows, pattern matching, type inferencing, and the rest."
20:25:05 <elliott> arrows - a language feature
20:25:39 <elliott> "The Lisp Curse does not contradict the maxim of Stanislav Datskovskiy"
20:25:42 <elliott> so that's where he learned verbosity
20:26:35 <elliott> this webdesign company specialises in making websites as ugly as this essay apparently?
20:27:03 <elliott> http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/
20:27:15 <elliott> "face-to-face" WHY DOES THAT MATTER
20:27:28 <elliott> cool, the about page is like an older version of the home page
20:29:22 <elliott> 05:46:17: <copumpkin> pikhq: I could've sworn you'd linked to a set of heisig stories at some point
20:29:23 <elliott> 05:46:23: <copumpkin> maybe I'm just confused
20:29:23 <elliott> 05:46:25: <pikhq> I don't recall one.
20:29:39 <Gregor> elliott: lol, it is X-D
20:30:00 <Gregor> * Portfolio: Coming soon!
20:30:08 <elliott> i like how the spacing on the menu changes when you change page
20:30:24 <elliott> wow, this is the first website i've seen that codu.org is better-designed than
20:30:31 <elliott> [asterisk][exclamation mark]
20:30:42 <elliott> maybe i'll just use unicode codepoint names in brackets
20:31:00 <elliott> 05:59:58: <pikhq> In completely unrelated news, I have finally found a replacement for Make that I like.
20:31:00 <elliott> 06:00:49: <pikhq> Called "redo". A third-party implementation of a djb idea.
20:31:05 <elliott> erm i believe i linked that ages ago ;D
20:31:08 <elliott> anyway, it's not that nice imo
20:31:20 <elliott> tup is better: http://gittup.org/tup/
20:31:33 <elliott> "See the difference? The arrows go up. This makes it very fast."
20:31:49 <elliott> (Explanation: "In a typical build system, the dependency arrows go down. Although this is the way they would naturally go due to gravity, it is unfortunately also where the enemy's gate is. This makes it very inefficient and unfriendly. In tup, the arrows go up. This is obviously true because it rhymes.")
20:32:16 <Gregor> Does that have any meaning at all? :P
20:32:48 <elliott> Read this oh-so-professional paper instead: http://gittup.org/tup/build_system_rules_and_algorithms.pdf
20:32:49 <Gregor> I can only assume that it refers to the order in which dependencies are listed in files (leaf to root or root to leaf)
20:33:14 <elliott> tup's way of handling dependencies -> faster builds, in fact optimal in some cases.
20:33:20 <Gregor> Oh kaaaaaaaay ... but the direction you choose to make the arrows appear in the DAG makes roughly no difference whatsoever ...
20:33:29 <elliott> Gregor: Read the fucking paper X-D
20:33:37 <elliott> Gregor: The orientation is the same, but the arrows are reversed.
20:33:49 <elliott> hello_world from foo.o (from foo.c, foo.h) and bar.o (from foo.h, bar.c), it's
20:34:04 <Gregor> Anyway, I still refuse to read 'cuz I'm awesome like that, so *AWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY* :P
20:34:11 <elliott> foo.c to foo.o to hello world, foo.h to (foo.o to hello_world) and (bar.o to hello world), bar.c to bar.o to hello_world
20:34:50 <elliott> Anyway, it has better time complexity, is optimal in some cases unlike make, and is faster in practice :P
20:35:42 <oklopol> i read the lisp thing all by myself
20:36:06 <elliott> 06:11:08: <pikhq> Yeah, I'm not saying you did.
20:36:07 <elliott> 06:11:12: <pikhq> I'm just saying: :D
20:36:07 <elliott> 06:11:32: <pikhq> Oh, yeah, and there's a subset of its functionality written in 150 lines of shell script.
20:36:07 <elliott> 06:11:43: <pikhq> Not even very dense lines of shell script.
20:36:07 <elliott> that is not really relevant to whether it is a good build system or not, only to whether it is simple
20:36:11 <elliott> In fact, it's pretty dishonest
20:36:16 <elliott> redo is based on shell-script-type things
20:36:28 <elliott> all that thing does is essentially recursive sh :)
20:36:37 <Sgeo> elliott, are you aware of how many protected symbols there are in Picolisp?
20:36:48 <elliott> tup is probably a simpler model but harder to implement so shortly because sh/all languages suck :)
20:36:53 <elliott> or rather, are not as tuned to the problem
20:37:23 <elliott> 06:42:47: <quintopia> i wonder if our minecrafters are gonna get sucked into this one soon also: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/01/21/love-grows-stronger-deeper-cheaper/
20:37:45 <Sgeo> (mapc zap (diff (all) '(meth NIL *Pid *Msg *Solo *Led *PPid This *Hup @@@ bye *OS *DB *Zap *Ext quote *Sig2 *Sig1 *Err *Dbg @@ *Bye *Uni *Tsm *Adr *Fork ^ T @ *Run *Class *Scl)))
20:37:56 <Sgeo> bye isn't protected
20:38:17 <Sgeo> I just wanted to be able to exit, and forgot about the ability to segfault at will
20:38:29 <Sgeo> It felt like much when I was determinign that list one bit at a time
20:38:37 <elliott> what's the diff between mapc and mapcar
20:38:42 <elliott> Sgeo: you could have automated it...
20:38:50 <Sgeo> catch doesn't catch the error
20:39:09 <elliott> everything is stored in there
20:39:36 <Sgeo> I don't get your point
20:40:04 <elliott> so whether a symbol is protected or not
20:40:07 <elliott> should reflect in its property list
20:40:11 <elliott> because picolisp stores all data in cells
20:40:16 <Sgeo> That information doesn't seem to be in its property list
20:40:34 <Sgeo> In the C code, I'd guess
20:40:42 <elliott> aren't you on sixty-four bit?
20:41:08 <elliott> 06:54:56: <pikhq> 3 lines for automatically calculating the dependencies for a C file... :)
20:41:14 <elliott> let's be fair, it takes about that many lines in make, too
20:41:26 <elliott> IIRC tup works it out automatically
20:41:49 <elliott> Sgeo: you said you spent ages of time trying exhaustively
20:41:57 <elliott> anyway it could easily be implemented
20:42:04 <elliott> try to modify all symbols and then put the value back
20:42:10 <elliott> error --> that's your next protected symbol
20:42:13 <elliott> and store it manually in a list
20:42:16 <elliott> to remove from the list of all symbols
20:42:22 <elliott> final list is protected symbols
20:42:34 <Sgeo> "store it manually"
20:42:35 <Vorpal> elliott, oh my, where can I find freetype 1?
20:42:36 <elliott> in fact, you could do it easily with a shell script invoking picolisp too
20:42:52 <elliott> Sgeo: (push "Protected" 'name)
20:46:27 <Vorpal> oh wait, it is included with this cd
20:46:42 <Vorpal> elliott, btw I found one cause of weirdness was missing "using namespace std;"
20:46:54 <elliott> Vorpal: ah, here is a better explanation of paperclipping: http://www.singinst.org/blog/2007/06/11/the-stamp-collecting-device/
20:46:55 <Vorpal> ftdump.c:172:1: error: pasting "." and "glyph_object" does not give a valid preprocessing token <--- ... ... great ...
20:47:28 <elliott> well, actually a good (very shallow) summary of the risks of AI in general
20:47:41 <Vorpal> FOOTPRINT( first_instance );
20:47:48 <Vorpal> #define FOOTPRINT( field ) Save_Memory( &memory_footprint.##field )
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20:54:56 <Vorpal> elliott, btw, autoconf works perfectly once you copy in a new config.guess that knows about x86_64
20:55:28 <Vorpal> elliott, say what you want about autoconf, it is very sturdy
20:55:45 <elliott> Vorpal: You should send Introversion a diff and info about the config.guess update, maybe they'd make an "official" release of it.
20:55:59 <elliott> I guess you'd need to assign copyright though...
20:56:07 <Vorpal> elliott, well, the *developer cd* I, um, ...
20:56:30 <Vorpal> elliott, well the diff is huge so far. I do keep it all under hg.
20:56:48 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess it would be risk free if I jump between enough systems on the way!
20:56:58 <elliott> THEY'LL NEVER TRACK YOU DOWN IN TIME
20:57:02 <Vorpal> FTEngine.C:22:22: fatal error: freetype.h: No such file or directory <-- wait what, it is there
20:57:20 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean, before my death?
20:57:25 <elliott> It's probably doing <freetype.h>
20:58:08 <Vorpal> elliott, uh what, I do have -I there. I passed "free type is in here" thingy to configure
20:58:19 <Vorpal> elliott, the issue was #include "freetype.h"
20:58:28 <Vorpal> it is in freetype/freetype.h
20:58:38 <elliott> -I doesn't let you load <x>.
20:58:43 <elliott> -isystem lets you do both.
20:59:07 <elliott> I know -isystem turns off warnings in headers included from there.
20:59:08 <Vorpal> elliott, that would mean rerunning autoconf I think... *That* would be more problematic
20:59:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Or just modifying the Makefile or invoking make with CFLAGS.
20:59:44 <Vorpal> elliott, right. There is a meta-makefile invoking configure and make
20:59:51 <Vorpal> elliott, for various third party libraryes
21:00:50 <elliott> "I think we just have to swallow the bitter pill that Nick is feeding us here: it’s far easier to build a GAI that destroys the entire planet than a GAI that does anything else, and this holds true even if you weren’t trying to code the GAI to destroy the planet."
21:00:59 <elliott> this means that the universe PREFERS AIs which destroy the world
21:01:11 <Vorpal> FTGlyphVectorizer.h:79:5: error: a class-key must be used when declaring a friend
21:01:11 <Vorpal> FTGlyphVectorizer.h:79:5: error: friend declaration does not name a class or function
21:01:22 <Vorpal> I have zero idea what that is
21:02:13 <elliott> Vorpal: Uh. Show me the line.
21:02:31 <Vorpal> friend FTGlyphVectorizer;
21:02:45 <elliott> VORPAL VIOLATES YET MORE LAWA
21:02:46 <Deewiant> friend class FTGlyphVectorizer;
21:02:50 <Vorpal> elliott, it is causing errors in the .C file that corresponds to this .h
21:03:06 <elliott> friend typename? friend union?
21:03:18 <elliott> I guess older C++ lacked function friends or something.
21:03:36 <Vorpal> GLTTGlyphPolygonizer.C:188:58: error: invalid conversion from 'void (*)(...)' to 'void (*)()'
21:03:36 <Vorpal> GLTTGlyphPolygonizer.C:188:58: error: initializing argument 3 of 'void gluTessCallback(GLUtesselator*, GLenum, void (*)())'
21:03:44 <Vorpal> at least that one I think I could tackle
21:04:46 <elliott> Vorpal: The first just needs a cast :P
21:04:52 <Vorpal> elliott, there is a cast!
21:04:56 <elliott> Err, there's only one error.
21:05:05 <elliott> Try reinterpret, aka THE NUCLEAR CAST.
21:05:09 <Vorpal> #if defined(WIN32) && !defined(__CYGWIN32__)
21:05:09 <Vorpal> typedef void (CALLBACK *glu_callback)(CALLBACKARG);
21:05:09 <Vorpal> typedef void CALLBACK (*glu_callback)(CALLBACKARG);
21:05:10 <Vorpal> gluTessCallback( tobj, GLenum(GLU_BEGIN),
21:05:11 <Vorpal> (glu_callback) gltt_polygonizer_begin );
21:05:23 <elliott> reinterpret_cast<glu_callback>(gltt_...)
21:05:24 <Vorpal> typedef inside a function yay
21:05:32 <Vorpal> (I wasn't even aware that was possible)
21:06:11 <Vorpal> elliott, I think gluTessCallback might have changed prototype
21:06:22 <Vorpal> elliott, same error yes
21:06:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Remove CALLBACKARG or replace it with ... :P
21:06:40 <elliott> Or figure out where it's defined and fix that.
21:07:02 <Vorpal> /usr/include/GL/glu.h:typedef void (GLAPIENTRYP _GLUfuncptr)();
21:07:11 <elliott> Vorpal: The reason you can't convert (void (asterisk)(...)) to (void (asterisk)()) is because varargs functions can have as fucked up a call mechanism as they want.
21:07:16 <elliott> (Convert safely, that is.)
21:07:28 <elliott> Vorpal: Just make sure CALLBACKARG is empty, then.
21:07:36 <Vorpal> #if defined(__GNUC__) || defined(_GNUG_)
21:07:36 <Vorpal> #define CALLBACKARG ...
21:07:36 <Vorpal> #define CALLBACKARG void
21:07:54 <Vorpal> hm... // IMHO, the (...) vs. (void) warning is due to GNU-C/C++.
21:08:06 <Vorpal> elliott, this file is .C
21:08:09 <Vorpal> elliott, empty means void
21:08:15 <elliott> Even in a function pointer?
21:08:25 <elliott> Just make it define it as void then?
21:08:26 <Vorpal> could be wrong, I'm not a C++ expert
21:08:28 <elliott> That's what the function _wants_, isn't it?
21:08:40 <Vorpal> elliott, the issue is that these functions seem to have meaningful parameters...
21:08:50 <Vorpal> static void CALLBACK gltt_polygonizer_begin( GLenum type )
21:08:50 <Vorpal> handler->begin(int(type));
21:08:53 <elliott> Vorpal: Ooh wait, you could cast gluTessCallback itself.
21:09:01 <elliott> To take the right kind of argument.
21:09:03 <Vorpal> elliott, if it is void how could this function possibly work?
21:09:06 <elliott> Then call that casted function pointer.
21:09:10 <elliott> Vorpal: Because invalid C programs work.
21:09:20 <elliott> Calling conventions are generally uniform on xeightsix-sixtyfour/Linux.
21:09:22 <Vorpal> elliott, uh, it is called with another function pointer to one that takes void*
21:09:26 <elliott> Calling conventions are generally uniform on xeightsix-sixtyfour/Linux.
21:09:40 <Vorpal> elliott, that was a reply to "<elliott> Vorpal: Ooh wait, you could cast gluTessCallback itself."
21:09:52 <elliott> Cast it to take the kind of type Uplink thinks it takes/wants to giv eit.
21:10:09 <Vorpal> elliott, doing the void define worked
21:10:13 <Vorpal> now onto the next error
21:10:27 <Vorpal> GLTTGlyphPolygonizerHandler.h:41:3: error: 'GLTTGlyphPolygonizer' does not name a type
21:10:28 <Vorpal> GLTTGlyphPolygonizerHandler.C: In constructor 'GLTTGlyphPolygonizerHandler::GLTTGlyphPolygonizerHandler(int)':
21:10:34 <elliott> Just remove the if from the define,t hen
21:10:39 <Vorpal> GLTTGlyphPolygonizerHandler.C:42:3: error: 'polygonizer' was not declared in this scope
21:10:41 <elliott> Make it define it as void unconditionally.
21:10:46 <Vorpal> elliott, I did that...
21:10:50 <elliott> Vorpal: First one: Put class in front.
21:10:55 <elliott> Second one: Probably solved by that.
21:11:16 <elliott> Vorpal: I would do it outside the cast.
21:11:20 <Vorpal> elliott, wait what, not class there
21:11:23 <elliott> Define CALLBACKARG as void unconditionally in that code you pasted.
21:11:27 <Vorpal> GLTTGlyphPolygonizer* polygonizer; // set by GLTTGlyphPolygonizer
21:11:33 <elliott> Where is GLTTGlyphPolygonizer defined
21:12:20 <Vorpal> elliott, in a file that wasn't included
21:12:32 <Vorpal> now I'm scared how that could possibly have worked back then!
21:12:32 <elliott> How did this ever use to compile..
21:12:40 <Vorpal> elliott, hah, great minds think alike
21:13:13 <Vorpal> oooh this is a good one...
21:13:15 <elliott> Would anyone like to give me a shiny laptop to use while this one is being repaired? :P
21:13:17 <Vorpal> #ifndef __FTGlyphVectorizer_h
21:13:18 <Vorpal> #include "FTGlyphVectorizer.h"
21:13:27 <Vorpal> include guard.... around the include!
21:13:32 <elliott> Vorpal[exclamation mark] I bet you're not using your ThinkPad[exclamation mark]
21:13:39 <elliott> Also, that's a saner way to do include guards, just not in C :P
21:13:47 <elliott> Avoids a file access/read/lex/etc.
21:14:08 <Vorpal> but the define it checks is defined in the included file
21:14:15 <Vorpal> elliott, how does that spreading out make any sense
21:14:42 <Vorpal> elliott, besides the include guard is also in the included file
21:14:43 <elliott> Vorpal: because include guards are used when you include the same file multiple times in the space of one compilation
21:14:55 <elliott> Doing it around the include avoids looking at the include file itself when it has already been included
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21:15:00 <elliott> which is generally expensive (disk access, etc.)
21:15:10 <elliott> "The first draft of the R7RS small language standard is now
21:15:10 <elliott> http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/attachment/wiki/WikiStart/r7rs-draft-1.pdf
21:15:10 <elliott> This is a relatively small revision to the R5RS
21:15:14 <elliott> Most importantly, we have added modules"
21:15:26 <elliott> Vorpal: Still a roundtrip.
21:15:32 <elliott> Vorpal: And more important is lexical analysis/preprocessing.
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21:15:46 <elliott> Doing it around has no disadvantages other than being ugly, which is why I said it is not better in C.
21:16:06 <elliott> lo, it has modules and exceptions and records
21:16:08 <Vorpal> elliott, I wonder if I should skip building the bundled libmikmod, it errors out with thousands of errors on one file... And hope that the system one will be compatible
21:16:39 <elliott> * The set of characters used is required to be consistent with
21:16:39 <elliott> the latest Unicode standard only in so far as the
21:16:39 <elliott> implementation supports Unicode.
21:16:51 <elliott> so when Unicode eight comes out, all implementations will become spec-incompliant[exclamation mark]
21:17:03 <Vorpal> elliott, what a silly name: libtcp4u
21:17:13 <elliott> can someone link me to r five rs, kinda hard to google
21:17:43 <Vorpal> elliott, here is a 1234567890 bar for you
21:17:52 <elliott> you are the first person to do that for me
21:17:58 <elliott> i can never express how grateful i am
21:18:02 <elliott> ...can i have an octothorpe too?
21:18:27 <monqy> can you copy from the topic
21:18:39 <elliott> optional procedure: (transcript-on filename)
21:18:39 <elliott> optional procedure: (transcript-off)
21:18:40 <elliott> Filename must be a string naming an output file to be created. The effect of transcript-on is to open the named file for output, and to cause a transcript of subsequent interaction between the user and the Scheme system to be written to the file. The transcript is ended by a call to transcript-off, which closes the transcript file. Only one transcript may be in progress at any time, though some impleme
21:18:40 <elliott> ntations may relax this restriction. The values returned by these procedures are unspecified.
21:18:44 <elliott> lol, can't believe rFIVErs has that
21:18:46 <Vorpal> monqy, what is the symbol?
21:19:11 <Vorpal> elliott, call a hash a hash
21:19:31 <Vorpal> elliott, here is the shifted row on my keyboard: !"#¤%&/()=
21:19:39 <Vorpal> elliott, it probably doesn't correspond to your
21:20:05 <Vorpal> elliott, but anyway why the fuck would you call it that
21:20:23 <monqy> presumably because that's what it's called
21:20:27 <Vorpal> (Redirected from Octothorpe)
21:20:29 * elliott reverts an edit of a past discussion on esowiki...
21:20:51 <Vorpal> monqy, actually it has many names
21:20:55 <elliott> octothorpe is the least ambiguous name.
21:21:01 <elliott> in the US it's the pound sign
21:21:17 <Vorpal> elliott, in Sweden it is often called "brädgård"
21:21:37 <Vorpal> probably from how it looks
21:21:44 <monqy> like a lumberyard?
21:21:45 <Vorpal> (liked piled up planks)
21:21:48 <elliott> hash. hex. pound. sharp. space. square
21:21:56 <elliott> octothorpe is the only completely unambiguous name. also it sounds nice.
21:21:58 <Vorpal> monqy, a pile of planks
21:22:03 <Vorpal> monqy, seen from the top
21:22:13 <monqy> what's the swedish word for a pile of planks as seen from the top
21:22:18 <elliott> a shebang is an octothorpe and a bang[exclamation m[caret]W[caret]Wbang]
21:22:27 <elliott> it's like i'm in the sixties[exclamation mark]
21:22:40 <Vorpal> monqy, uh? I don't know any. I'm just saying that is what it is thought to resemble. Meaning it got the name lumberyard
21:27:25 <Vorpal> elliott, you know what... this uplink uses both freetype 1 and 2. At the same time.
21:27:44 <Vorpal> elliott, complain to apple
21:29:35 <Vorpal> elliott, oh no, you will become a PH
21:29:49 <elliott> but i had the best ideaaaaa
21:29:57 <elliott> I WILL RECLUSIFY INTO CAVE FOREVER ->
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21:32:40 <Vorpal> app/dos2unix.cpp: In member function ‘virtual int dos2unixbuf::pbackfail(int)’:
21:32:40 <Vorpal> app/dos2unix.cpp:67:20: error: ‘base’ was not declared in this scope
21:33:03 <Vorpal> elliott, issue, it is inheriting from streambuf in libstdc++
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21:33:33 <Vorpal> elliott, http://sprunge.us/EdcX
21:33:40 <Vorpal> elliott, basically there is no base() here
21:33:57 <elliott> http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/iostream/streambuf/pbackfail/
21:34:02 <elliott> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa277867(v=vs.60).aspx
21:34:09 <elliott> http://www.qnx.com/developers/docs/6.5.0/index.jsp?topic=/com.qnx.doc.dinkum_en_ecpp/streambu.html
21:34:13 <elliott> http://www.opensource.apple.com/source/gcc/gcc-937.2/libio/streambuf.cc
21:34:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Does glibc not have it?
21:34:18 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe you need to add c?
21:34:23 <Vorpal> elliott, for the parameter
21:34:38 <elliott> Failing that, glibc is Trying To Be Different again :)
21:35:00 <Vorpal> elliott, also you mean libstc++
21:35:30 <elliott> Oh, it's part of gcc, isn't it?
21:35:51 <elliott> libc used to be bundled with gcc, so I guess it's heritage.
21:36:10 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, do you need to add some virtual somewhere maybe
21:36:28 <elliott> Since when is base anything?
21:36:31 <elliott> I have never heard of base.
21:36:46 <Vorpal> elliott, other languages has it
21:36:51 <elliott> No they don't, they have super.
21:36:56 <Vorpal> elliott, C# has base()
21:37:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I said *other languages*
21:37:21 <elliott> Well I've never heard of base. I don't know what is going onthere.
21:37:22 <Vorpal> elliott, the name is actually "C sharp"
21:37:30 <elliott> base() is the base of the pointer that gptr returns the current value of.
21:37:35 <elliott> That is the only way that makes sense.
21:37:51 <elliott> streambuf has base, it looks like.
21:37:57 <Vorpal> char_type * gptr () const
21:37:57 <Vorpal> char_type * egptr () const
21:38:01 <elliott> Vorpal: Have you tried this->base() or something?
21:38:02 <Vorpal> from man std::streambuf
21:38:13 <Vorpal> elliott, there is char_type * pbase () const
21:38:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Have you tried this->base() or something?
21:38:20 <elliott> base is in streambuf, says google.
21:38:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess I'll do it.
21:38:29 <elliott> Or, well, at least in Microsoft. :P
21:38:43 <Vorpal> elliott, what does it do?
21:38:50 <elliott> Returns the base to the pointer or something.
21:38:56 <Vorpal> app/dos2unix.cpp:67:21: error: ‘class dos2unixbuf’ has no member named ‘base’
21:39:06 <Vorpal> elliott, there is pbase, is it the same thing
21:39:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Try using the stdstream function on it.
21:39:11 <elliott> Streambuf function I mean.
21:39:45 <Vorpal> elliott, got a link to that ms page?
21:40:13 <Vorpal> app/dos2unix.cpp:67:15: error: ‘base’ is not a member of ‘std::streambuf’
21:40:14 <elliott> It seems like pbase is for output and eback for input.
21:40:27 <elliott> Returns a pointer to the first byte of the reserve area. The reserve area consists of space between the pointers returned by base and ebuf.
21:40:46 <Vorpal> that description made little sense
21:40:48 <elliott> Vorpal: What IS this dostounix thing for?
21:40:58 <elliott> Or is it just a helper tool?
21:41:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I think it is for loading save games
21:41:09 <elliott> Can't you just stub it out? :)
21:41:12 <Vorpal> elliott, it is used all over the main source
21:41:23 <elliott> Yes, but you could make it an identity mapping.
21:41:29 <Vorpal> options/options.cpp:#include "app/dos2unix.h"
21:41:29 <Vorpal> world/generator/worldgenerator.cpp:#include "app/dos2unix.h"
21:41:30 <Vorpal> world/generator/langenerator.cpp:#include "app/dos2unix.h"
21:41:30 <Vorpal> world/world.cpp:#include "app/dos2unix.h"
21:41:41 <Vorpal> elliott, not sure, it has code to convert the other way
21:42:45 <Vorpal> good thing, pbackfail is never called
21:42:45 <elliott> gptr = current input position
21:42:47 <elliott> beginning of input = eback
21:43:06 <elliott> Vorpal: Try eback. I think.
21:43:29 <Vorpal> elliott, as far as I can tell it is for checking if there is space to put in a char when doing the equiv of ungetc
21:43:29 <elliott> Vorpal: Streambuf functions probably call it.
21:43:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Streambuf functions probably call it.
21:43:52 <elliott> I don't know which of the latter two you want.
21:43:57 <elliott> Probably eback. Even though that makes not much sense.
21:44:55 <elliott> http://earslap.com/projectslab/otomata/?q=2h2d8882 this is fun
21:45:21 <Vorpal> /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/4.5.2/../../../../include/c++/4.5.2/bits/fstream.tcc: In member function ‘virtual int dos2unixbuf::sync()’:
21:45:21 <Vorpal> /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/4.5.2/../../../../include/c++/4.5.2/bits/fstream.tcc:837:5: error: ‘int std::basic_filebuf<_CharT, _Traits>::sync() [with _CharT = char, _Traits = std::char_traits<char>]’ is protected
21:45:35 <elliott> always show the goddamn line
21:45:44 <Vorpal> elliott, right. the .tcc one?
21:45:50 <Vorpal> app/dos2unix.cpp:76:20: error: within this context
21:46:00 <Vorpal> int dos2unixbuf::sync() {
21:46:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I think it fails because inheritance != embedding
21:46:30 <elliott> Vorpal: you can cast anything to public
21:46:39 <Vorpal> elliott, wait what? How?
21:46:45 <elliott> http://byuu.org/articles/programming/public_cast
21:46:56 <elliott> i suggest putting the code all in that function to cordon off the evil
21:47:29 <Vorpal> elliott, my jaw. Refuses to go back up.
21:47:36 <elliott> Vorpal: oh, and that's C++0x... because of the variadic template
21:47:40 <elliott> I think you can specialise it for just this case
21:47:46 <elliott> but I'd just tell it to compile that file as C++0x in the makefile
21:47:52 <Vorpal> I'm not sure my template-fu is up to this
21:47:53 <elliott> you're already at maximum evil level, after all
21:48:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Just copy it, paste it, and do what it says at the bottom
21:48:06 <elliott> Plus make it compile that file as c++0x :P
21:48:29 <elliott> Alternatively find the public way to sync. But that's loser speak
21:48:31 <Vorpal> elliott, and you don't want to mess with this makefile. It is spawn of fashan.
21:48:40 <elliott> Vorpal: foo.C: CFLAGS+=-std=c++0x
21:48:46 <Vorpal> elliott, this one is .cpp
21:48:49 <Vorpal> elliott, different project
21:49:14 <elliott> The public member function pubsync of the parent class streambuf calls this virtual member function, which overrides the virtual member streambuf::sync.
21:49:19 <Vorpal> elliott, only good thing with this makefile is that it is non-recursive
21:49:38 <Vorpal> elliott, so I could just use pubsync?
21:49:54 <elliott> Vorpal: Well... ok, maybe.
21:50:10 <elliott> If it breaks, don't come crying to me.
21:50:18 <Vorpal> elliott, why would it break?
21:50:28 <elliott> Because pubsync might not do the same thing that it's meant to do here.
21:50:33 <elliott> Because you're implementing sync, that pubsync calls for you.
21:50:41 <elliott> It might want to do extra stuff that conflicts with the extra stuff inner.pubsync already does.
21:50:41 <Vorpal> interface/localinterface/irc_interface.cpp:1021:1: error: pasting "UplinkIRCMonitor" and "::" does not give a valid preprocessing token
21:50:54 <Vorpal> but what, 1021 lines in a IRC interface?
21:50:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Enter here with your precompiled copy :D
21:51:02 <elliott> Also, why is that surprising?
21:51:05 <elliott> It's an IRC client[exclamation mark]
21:51:06 <Vorpal> IRC_MAP_ENTRY(UplinkIRCMonitor, "001", Received_RPL_WELCOME )
21:51:06 <Vorpal> IRC_MAP_ENTRY(UplinkIRCMonitor, "002", Received_RPL_LUSER )
21:51:08 <elliott> It's an IRC client[exclamation mark]
21:51:15 <elliott> Why is >onek lines surprising?
21:51:18 <Vorpal> elliott, only part. It uses irclib in contrib
21:52:01 <elliott> grep the whole source tree
21:52:37 <Vorpal> elliott, nada, nothing.
21:52:46 <elliott> no introversion copyright? ;)
21:52:48 <Vorpal> elliott, not even a license
21:52:57 <Vorpal> it is in the external libs dir too
21:53:10 <elliott> http://earslap.com/projectslab/otomata/?q=0q1y2a3h4j5c607586 ;; this sounds nice
21:57:51 <Vorpal> interface/localinterface/irc_interface.cpp: In member function ‘virtual void IRCInterface::Update()’:
21:57:51 <Vorpal> interface/localinterface/irc_interface.cpp:756:5: error: ‘ProcessMessages’ is not a member of ‘CCrossThreadsMessagingDevice’
21:57:52 <Vorpal> void IRCInterface::Update ()
21:57:53 <Vorpal> CCrossThreadsMessagingDevice::ProcessMessages ();
21:58:31 <Vorpal> ~/uplink/developer/source $ grep -R ProcessMessages ../
21:58:31 <Vorpal> ../source/interface/localinterface/irc_interface.cpp: CCrossThreadsMessagingDevice::ProcessMessages ();
21:58:59 <Vorpal> elliott, the function is from the irclib (well CCrossThreadsMessagingDevice is) but it is nowhere to be found
21:59:15 <Vorpal> this think can not possibly have compiled
21:59:19 <elliott> well people have compiled this before, dunno if they have on linux
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22:01:23 <Vorpal> elliott, so it doesn't render kicks. And doesn't handle queries
22:01:46 <Vorpal> uplink.cpp:82:35: error: ‘::main’ must return ‘int’ <-- I actually laughed out loud at this one
22:02:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, if this is not the Uplink source I will hate you forever.
22:02:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ... did you read logs?
22:02:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and yes it is the uplink source
22:02:44 <news-ham> Hello, Reddit. This is my Portal Gun. http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/grjuf/hello_reddit_this_is_my_portal_gun/
22:02:51 <elliott> WHO GAVE THE NEWS HAM A PORTAL GUN
22:02:52 <news-ham> Horses die at Ayr Grand National: Two horses die during the running of the Scottish Grand National, a week after a similar tragedy at Aintree. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-13106252
22:03:03 <elliott> Vorpal: provide rss two w/o cdata
22:03:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: hello my one to eight keys are borken
22:03:24 <Vorpal> elliott, apply simple one line regexp to strip out cdata tags and hope for the best?
22:03:39 <news-ham> Vettel beats Button to China pole: Red Bull's Sebastian Vettel sets a scintillating lap to beat McLaren's Jenson Button and Lewis Hamilton in qualifying at the Chinese Grand Prix. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/sport1/hi/formula_one/13102798.stm
22:03:42 <elliott> but that would destroy what little orthogonality my function has left. also, i dunno if picolisp even has regexs
22:03:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what do you mean what did i do to news-ham
22:03:50 <news-ham> Pollution hits EU wildlife havens: Air pollution is damaging 60% of Europe's prime wildlife sites in meadows, forests and heaths, a team of scientists warns. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/science-environment-13094597
22:03:53 <elliott> it just has reddit support now. what are the haps my friends
22:03:54 <news-ham> Battlefield 3 - Full Length "Fault Line" Gameplay Trailer http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/grfsv/battlefield_3_full_length_fault_line_gameplay/
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22:05:53 <Vorpal> gucci_sdl.cpp: In function ‘bool GciSetScreenSize(int, int, int, int)’:
22:05:53 <Vorpal> gucci_sdl.cpp:301:56: error: default argument given for parameter 3 of ‘bool GciSetScreenSize(int, int, int, int)’
22:05:53 <Vorpal> gucci.h:26:6: error: after previous specification in ‘bool GciSetScreenSize(int, int, int, int)’
22:06:00 <Vorpal> bool GciSetScreenSize ( int width, int height,
22:06:00 <Vorpal> int bpp = -1, int refresh = -1 );
22:06:07 <Vorpal> bool GciSetScreenSize ( int width, int height,
22:06:08 <Vorpal> int bpp = -1, int refresh = -1 )
22:06:15 <Vorpal> no, gcc, I don't see the issue
22:06:29 <elliott> Vorpal: remove from source
22:07:16 <coppro> that particular rule is weird
22:07:29 <coppro> but unfortunately effectively necessary
22:07:35 <Vorpal> make[1]: Nothing to be done for `libgucci.a'.
22:07:37 <Vorpal> $ find .. -iname libgucci.a
22:08:10 <Vorpal> libgucci.a : $(OBJECTS)
22:08:27 <Vorpal> now, how to write the shortest possible body for this one
22:08:28 <elliott> coppro: Only necessary if you accept the rest of C++
22:08:45 <coppro> elliott: I accept all of it
22:08:46 <elliott> "Why does the Bible say I have to hate gayness? That's weird" "That particular rule is weird but unfortunately effectively necessary"
22:08:49 <Vorpal> arguably the header/source split is stupid
22:08:57 <elliott> coppro: See also: You are insane.
22:09:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Um, make has .a support
22:09:12 <Vorpal> <elliott> "Why does the Bible say I have to hate gayness? That's weird" "That particular rule is weird but unfortunately effectively necessary" <-- not quite the same
22:09:15 <Vorpal> elliott, well, they broke it
22:09:20 <elliott> Shut up, it's basically like gayness.
22:09:43 <Vorpal> GLUT_OBJECTS = gucci_glut.o resize_unix.o
22:09:43 <Vorpal> SDL_OBJECTS = gucci_sdl.o
22:09:43 <Vorpal> OBJECTS = gucci.o image.o $(SDL_OBJECTS)
22:09:43 <Vorpal> libgucci.a : $(OBJECTS)
22:10:49 <Vorpal> elliott, but <elliott> Vorpal: Um, make has .a support ?
22:11:21 <elliott> There's that foo.a(bar.o) stuff.
22:14:47 <Vorpal> Linking... libtool: you must specify a MODE
22:14:47 <Vorpal> libtool: Try `libtool --help' for more information.
22:14:47 <Vorpal> make: *** [uplink.static] Error 1
22:15:00 <Vorpal> long live hiding the output
22:16:57 <Vorpal> libtool: link: unable to infer tagged configuration
22:16:57 <Vorpal> libtool: link: specify a tag with `--tag'
22:17:03 <Vorpal> elliott, ANY GOOD WITH LIBTOOL?
22:17:17 <elliott> Aren't you meant to use libtool instead of ar?
22:17:43 <Vorpal> elliott, this is used for linking the full uplink.static executable
22:18:02 <elliott> Remove all lines referencing libtool :D
22:18:10 <Vorpal> $(LIBTOOL) --quiet --mode=link $(LINK) $+ $(UPLINKSTATICLIBS) -o uplink.static
22:18:14 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean that
22:19:00 <Vorpal> gcc: cc: No such file or directory
22:20:15 <Vorpal> gcc: /usr/lib/libttf.a: No such file or directory
22:20:19 <Vorpal> what is that supposed to be
22:23:17 <Vorpal> fuck, irclib wasn't compiled, and now it doesn't want to compile
22:23:33 <Vorpal> irc.cpp:184:62: error: invalid conversion from ‘DWORD (*)(void*)’ to ‘void*’
22:23:33 <Vorpal> irc.cpp:184:62: error: initializing argument 3 of ‘void* CreateThread(void*, int, void*, void*, int, void*)’
22:23:34 <Vorpal> m_hThread = CreateThread(NULL, 0, ThreadProc, this, 0, NULL);
22:24:05 <elliott> maybe the IRC thing just plain doesn't work on linux
22:24:07 <Vorpal> m_hThread = CreateThread(NULL, 0, (void*)ThreadProc, this, 0, NULL);
22:24:33 <Vorpal> elliott, the irc lib does exist in the linux executable
22:24:43 <Vorpal> m_hThread = CreateThread(NULL, 0, (void*)ThreadProc, this, 0, NULL);
22:24:50 <elliott> CREATETHREAD IS A WINDOWS FUNCTION
22:24:51 <Vorpal> adding the explicit cast there
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22:25:11 <Vorpal> linux/windows.cpp:HANDLE CreateThread(void *, int, void * threadProc, void *arg, int, void * )
22:25:12 <Vorpal> linux/windows.h:HANDLE CreateThread(void *, int, void * /* THREADPROC */, void * /* ARG */, int, void * );
22:25:51 <Vorpal> elliott, the header has these: http://sprunge.us/ILJf
22:25:57 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: cheney on the mta is not just implemented in scheme
22:26:07 <Vorpal> typedef pthread_mutex_t CRITICAL_SECTION;
22:26:17 <oerjan> perhaps not but on wikipedia it redirects to chicken scheme...
22:26:34 <elliott> oerjan: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/CheneyMTA.html
22:26:37 <Vorpal> socket.h:6:0: warning: ignoring #pragma comment
22:26:46 <oerjan> (although i remembered chicken scheme first)
22:26:47 <elliott> http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/cboyer13.c is the hand-translated proof of concept
22:26:49 <Vorpal> #pragma comment(lib, "wsock32.lib")
22:27:14 <elliott> Vorpal: dunno, maybe it causes linking with their windows build system?
22:27:42 <Vorpal> irc.cpp:449:4: error: name lookup of ‘p’ changed for ISO ‘for’ scoping
22:27:42 <Vorpal> irc.cpp:449:4: note: (if you use ‘-fpermissive’ G++ will accept your code)
22:27:49 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:28:03 <elliott> for (char [asterisk]p = ...);
22:28:06 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:28:07 <Vorpal> elliott, it is in a while loop
22:28:16 <Vorpal> elliott, while( (bool)m_socket )
22:28:23 <elliott> pikhq: also i made several comments on redo in logs.
22:28:25 <Vorpal> for(char* p = szBuf; *p && *p != '\r' && *p != '\n'; ++p)
22:28:52 <elliott> pikhq: there's a lot, grep for "redo" on http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-04-16
22:28:56 <elliott> pikhq: until you find my first message
22:29:00 <elliott> then just go from there, it's a wall of text :)
22:29:16 <elliott> pikhq: well i can quote if you want
22:29:23 <elliott> but it'd drown out Vorpal's valuable uplink compilation talk
22:29:28 <Vorpal> socket.cpp:112:53: error: invalid conversion from ‘int*’ to ‘socklen_t*’
22:29:28 <Vorpal> socket.cpp:112:53: error: initializing argument 3 of ‘int accept(int, sockaddr*, socklen_t*)’
22:29:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: MSVC++ has #pragma comment which adds a "comment record" in the object file/executable; with 'lib' it just makes the linker automatically look for that library without having to specify it.
22:29:52 <elliott> reinterpret_cast<socklen_t[asterisk]>(x)
22:29:55 <Vorpal> elliott, actually I'll fix it properly
22:30:32 <elliott> pikhq: it continues past where you expect btw
22:30:39 <fizzie> (You can also use it to specify some other linker options.)
22:30:51 <elliott> pikhq: there's more[exclamation mark] :D
22:30:54 <elliott> (my number keys are broken)
22:31:08 <elliott> he has his own linux-from-scratch/gentoo-alike called gittup
22:31:15 <pikhq> elliott: Still, you must admit: redo is a hell of a lot better than make. Thus my glee.
22:31:17 <elliott> the sources of all the software are stored in git
22:31:20 <elliott> and everything is built with tup
22:31:24 <Vorpal> elliott, a one line fix anyway
22:31:37 <elliott> oh, and everything is configured with menuconfig
22:32:11 <Gregor> For some reason, one of the parameters for the time signature event in MIDI is 32nds per quarter note.
22:32:14 <elliott> "Yeah, I'm marf. Yeah, my computer is captainfalcon. Yeah, I just edited the spellcasting in nethack because I felt like it. Then I changed ls to print "Sup bro, way to list those files", because I like to be encouraged when I list things, and because I like it when people call me "bro"1. Then I re-compiled both and got a new initrd in like two seconds. Go ahead -- try to change the ls on your system t
22:32:14 <elliott> o print out extra messages for no reason!2 You can't do it!! Unless of course you're running gittup.org. But if you're running gittup.org, why aren't you playing nethack or needlessly recompiling things just for fun? In fact, how are you reading this webpage?? It doesn't even come with a web browser."
22:32:30 <pikhq> And my glee comes from most make replacements screwing up even the bits that make gets right.
22:33:04 <elliott> "Some things that will never be in gittup.org:
22:33:10 <Vorpal> CrossThreadsMessagingDevice.cpp fails badly however
22:33:19 <elliott> pikhq: tup even gives you a build progress bar[exclamation mark] WHAT MORE COULD YOU WANT
22:33:26 <elliott> The only other system that does that is CMake, and CMake is the worst ever.
22:33:38 <elliott> pikhq: (Also, http://gittup.org/tup/tup_vs_mordor.html is amusing + funny)
22:33:47 <elliott> Why compare against make when you can compare against the All-Seeing Eye of Mordor?
22:34:30 <pikhq> CMake has the following benefits: it sucks *slightly* less than autoconf/make.
22:34:47 <elliott> pikhq: ALSO: Disadvantage of redo: It's practically impossible to offer an -n.
22:34:48 <pikhq> Which hardly counts.
22:34:50 <Vorpal> elliott, how does winelib work?
22:34:57 <elliott> Vorpal: It works exactly how wine works.
22:35:00 <elliott> By providing Windows API implementations.
22:35:01 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, true, there is that.
22:35:07 <elliott> pikhq: (I've even discussed this with the developer.)
22:35:11 <Vorpal> elliott, but to an ELF instead of a PE?
22:35:24 <elliott> pikhq: Also the developer dislikes IPvSix and wants us all to switch to using heavily-recursively-NATted IPvFour.
22:35:33 <elliott> OTHER THINGS THE DEVELOPER IS: A baby-murderer.
22:35:41 <elliott> This is a valid method of hoosing software.
22:35:57 <pikhq> Vorpal: winelib provides the Windows API as a library, instead of providing the entire Windows API *and* ABI.
22:36:21 <Vorpal> pikhq, okay. Actually I think I'll edit out the irc client from uplink instead. Looks saner.
22:37:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Wine has a tool to convert Windows Makefiels into Wine ones.
22:38:10 <elliott> To fix that problem, open notepad2/Makefile.in in a text editor and search for an assignment to a variable with IMPORTS as part of its name. There will be a list of import libraries. Now run winemaker again, but with these libraries prefixed by -i:
22:38:10 <elliott> $ winemaker --lower-uppercase -icomdlg32 -ishell32 -ishlwapi -iuser32 -igdi32 -iadvapi32 -ikernel32 .
22:38:25 <elliott> And it lets you specify --dll.
22:38:28 <pikhq> elliott: So far, I at least approve of Tup's syntax.
22:38:45 <elliott> pikhq: It's not about the syntax, man, it's the arrows[exclamation mark] They go upwards[exclamation mark]
22:38:47 <pikhq> This is promising: hardly any make-alikes have non-painful syntax.
22:39:11 <pikhq> Have you considered making some new entries in Xcompose?
22:39:21 <Vorpal> elliott, the issue is that it wants a lot of stuff that windows.cpp is missing
22:39:28 <elliott> pikhq: Once you've read the site, you probably want to check out http://gittup.org/tup/build_system_rules_and_algorithms.pdf.
22:39:32 <Vorpal> something about a huge window struct
22:39:40 <elliott> pikhq: It's an interesting read describing why tup is so fast.
22:39:43 <Vorpal> and one for displaying windows
22:39:50 <elliott> pikhq: (And why make and all top-down build systems are inherently slower.)
22:40:35 <elliott> Vorpal: So compile the whole IRC client as a Windows program, with winelib.
22:41:11 <elliott> See http://www.winehq.org/docs/winelib-guide/winelib-getting-started or "man winemaker".
22:42:32 <Vorpal> elliott, PROBLEM is that it runs inside the same process as uplink
22:42:39 <Vorpal> that is going to play nuts with uplink
22:43:21 <elliott> maybe not[exclamation mark]
22:43:58 <Vorpal> elliott, this is easier, and I don't care much for the irc interface.
22:45:28 <elliott> Vorpal: you are a terrible person
22:46:21 <Vorpal> URGH. That was some messed up screen
22:49:28 <pikhq> elliott: So, it's preloading to figure out non-explicit dependencies?
22:49:47 <elliott> pikhq: Yes. (I would prefer it strace'd for statically-linked stuff, but what can you do.)
22:49:57 <elliott> pikhq: But really, that isn't the important thing. The important thing is that the arrows go up.
22:50:00 <elliott> It's a bottom-up build system.
22:50:15 <elliott> It traces from what's changed to what needs rebuilding, not from "here's what I'm tasked to build, now to trace all the dependencies".
22:50:32 <elliott> Which makes it much faster (see the paper, much better time complexity, also see the comparisons to Make and Mordor on the site)
22:50:34 <pikhq> elliott: I'm looking at the details that everything fucks up horribly currently.
22:50:52 <pikhq> elliott: I'll admire the algorithm it uses on the dependency graph in a bit. :P
22:51:03 <Vorpal> *oh* this one is older
22:51:08 <Vorpal> than the one I had as a native
22:51:09 <Sgeo> Why why why does the only other person active in #picolisp right now have to be Arm?
22:51:18 <elliott> Vorpal: what do you mean by older?
22:51:23 <pikhq> Oh jesus *it can actually output the dependency graph*?
22:51:28 <elliott> Sgeo: haha, sprunge a conversation snippet, i wanna lol
22:51:35 <Vorpal> elliott, v1.31 vs. v1.54
22:51:40 <Vorpal> elliott, incompatible options file format
22:51:56 <elliott> I really want to tell Arm he doesn't know shit in octothorpepicolisp, but I think he is a committer :)
22:51:59 <Vorpal> elliott, and data seems a bit screwy too
22:52:21 <coppro> pick any random wikipedia article
22:52:27 <Sgeo> elliott, all that happened just now is that he had a workaround for a problem, but I remembered a builtin that worked just fine
22:52:32 <coppro> click the first link to occur in the body of the page
22:52:33 <Sgeo> He doesn't seem to have noticed, though
22:52:36 <coppro> you will visit Aristotle
22:52:46 <Vorpal> elliott, huh there is an option for multi-monitor over network
22:53:00 <elliott> coppro: reddit says it was "philosophy".
22:53:05 <pikhq> "# It will detect if your build description isn't parallel-safe, and tell you."
22:53:12 <elliott> So basically you can get anywhere really popular if you keep clicking.
22:54:00 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:54:04 <coppro> elliott: philosophy is part of the loop with aristotle
22:54:11 <coppro> I just like aristotle more
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22:55:02 * pikhq starts on the paper
22:55:12 <elliott> pikhq: DID YOU READ THE COMPARISON TO MORDOR
22:55:33 <elliott> ("This one time a beam of light was flying through the vacuum of space at the speed of light and then tup went by and was like "Yo beam of light, you need a lift?" cuz tup was going so fast it thought the beam of light had a flat tire and was stuck. True story." --make vs tup)
22:55:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's about build systems.
22:55:47 <elliott> SOMEHOW I DOUBT YOU ARE INTERESTED
22:56:03 <elliott> http://gittup.org/tup/index.html IS THE SITE
22:56:22 <elliott> "For the tup case there is a Tupfile in each directory, as is the tup-convention. Tupvention."
22:56:32 <elliott> pikhq: I sure hope you did read the comparisons if only because they're hilarious :P
22:56:48 <elliott> "I didn't run a million cuz it would take forever to create a million files, and I value the life of my hard drive. Maybe I'll do that someday. Yeah that's right. I said maybe someday I will *kill* my hard drive, just for another data point. Is it right to value the pursuit of science over life? Even if it's something that does not ever truly live? That is a question that even tup cannot answer."
22:57:07 <Vorpal> elliott, data files I have won't work with this version of uplink. It's all fucked up
22:57:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Ask on the forums?
22:57:22 <elliott> Vorpal: There will be modders there.
22:57:42 <Vorpal> elliott, development cd access forum is closed to registered owners of it
22:57:52 <Vorpal> elliott, to allow posting source code
22:57:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Good reason to buy it[exclamation mark] :D
22:58:18 <elliott> [[Q: HELP!!!!! How do you use the voice analyser???? I am talking into my mike but nothing happens....wtf????
22:58:18 <elliott> A: The "speak into your mike" message is just to attempt to emulate reality, all you need to do is:
22:58:18 <elliott> 1. Go to the company's public access server, save the phone number of the admin.
22:58:18 <elliott> 2. Phone the admin <also open the voice analyser and leave it running in the background>.
22:58:18 <elliott> 3. He will then speak, the voice analyser will say "recording voice pattern" and then it'll say "Analysing voice recording". After this point you can hang up, BUT LEAVE THE VOICE ANALYSER RUNNING!!!
22:58:20 <elliott> 4. Go to the voice check on the computer you're trying to hack, press the "playback" button
22:58:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Uplink Uplink.
22:58:57 <elliott> Vorpal: Yeah, but you save the cost of the game :P
22:59:21 <elliott> Also Introversion are cool enough to justify supporting them even though their business model is outdated.
22:59:27 <elliott> I WANT TO PLAY SUBVERSION DAMMIT
22:59:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Also the dev disk might be more up to date?
22:59:59 <pikhq> elliott: I did read the comparisons.
23:00:02 <elliott> Dunno. Like it says "Note: Requires the full version of Uplink to be installed" :P
23:00:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why not?
23:00:42 <Vorpal> <elliott> Dunno. Like it says "Note: Requires the full version of Uplink to be installed" :P <-- I have that
23:00:51 <Vorpal> elliott, But TOO NEW VERSION
23:00:57 <elliott> Right. Thus the disk might be newer.
23:01:03 <elliott> If not, someone will know how to fix it, presumably.
23:01:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: He's using the developer disk.
23:01:12 <Phantom_Hoover> A version so outdated it's not available through normal channels.
23:01:13 <elliott> i.e. he's trying to compile it.
23:01:16 <elliott> The game itself runs fine for him.
23:01:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no it doesn't. Only the installer does
23:01:28 <elliott> And define the normal channel.
23:01:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway. I don't need it for the developer one
23:02:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So you didn't even try looking at the source archives?
23:02:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the issue is I have version 1.54 + it's data files. Developer disc is 1.31. The results of 1.31 on 1.54 data files are... curious
23:02:22 <elliott> Vorpal: How did you install it without the installer btw?
23:02:40 <Vorpal> which is complete messed up
23:02:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The GTK site?
23:02:57 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: How did you install it without the installer btw? <-- trivial, one symlink
23:03:01 <elliott> Sometimes your wilful ignorance astounds me, Phantom_Hoover.
23:03:08 -!- ais523 has joined.
23:03:18 <elliott> Well, it DOES sound like you gave up before, say, googling "GTK".
23:03:19 <Vorpal> elliott, actually one symlink + copy one *.so from /usr/lib32 on my laptop
23:03:24 <elliott> To then complain about it is... interesting.
23:03:32 <Vorpal> elliott, that was all I needed to make it run
23:03:37 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I didn't, because *that's an absurdly vague search for the problem I had*.
23:03:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You needed an older version of GTK.
23:03:52 <elliott> You were trying to find it on "official sources".
23:04:00 <elliott> You seem to have given up before looking outside of the whatever repositories.
23:04:01 <Vorpal> elliott, If you want to run the installer, you would need gtk1
23:04:08 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, and at the time, I didn't know these things, since it was quite some time ago.
23:04:28 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and tell the self-extracting .sh --help, and it will tell you how to direct it to unpack in a good place
23:04:32 <Vorpal> so you can get at the files directly
23:04:38 <Vorpal> instead of the installer failing to launch
23:04:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Define these things... you didn't know of google?
23:05:24 <Vorpal> elliott, looking at some persons knowing there is a step by step guide and knowing there is google, they still fail to apply either
23:05:24 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, FFS, *I did not understand the shared library issue enough to consider searching source archives.*
23:05:28 <Vorpal> elliott, like my dad did today
23:05:38 <Phantom_Hoover> *Googling 'GTK' would still have been utterly useless.*
23:05:47 <Vorpal> elliott, my dad, is the nightmare of a helpdesk worker
23:06:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK fine but bringing it up later seems odd.
23:06:25 <elliott> Vorpal: My mother justifies it with "I CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT IF IT'S WORDS"
23:06:46 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, my dad can't do that. He is a scientist after all. It wouldn't work.
23:06:49 <elliott> If you ever see on the news the story of a psychopath child who killed his mother after being asked for technical support, try and sympathise momentarily.
23:07:02 <Vorpal> no I haven't seen that story
23:08:12 <pikhq> So far, I approve of tup.
23:08:53 <Vorpal> elliott, you said you had uplink. What version?
23:09:00 <Vorpal> please please let it be 1.31!
23:09:24 <Vorpal> elliott, brb, while you search for the cd!
23:09:27 <elliott> Vorpal: But no optical drive.
23:09:37 <elliott> I dunno if the SuperDrive works with Ubuntu.
23:09:58 * pikhq shall have to play with it a bit and see what, if anything, is annoying to do with it
23:10:29 <elliott> pikhq: Tup's own build system is a pretty good demonstration, btw.
23:12:06 * pikhq wonders how well it handles, say, autogenerated headers for a C file...
23:12:40 <elliott> : foo.in |> my-magic-generator |> foo.h
23:12:49 <elliott> : uses-foo-h.c |> ... |> uses-foo-h
23:13:26 <pikhq> Except that I'd like to not have to duplicate *all* the command stuff just to say "the following C files use a generated header".
23:13:31 <elliott> : $(mingwsrcs) tup-dllinject.dll |> ^ MINGW32LINK tup.exe^ version=`git describe`; echo "const char *tup_version(void) {return \"$version\";}" | @(TUP_MINGW)-gcc -x c -c - -o tup-version.omingw; @(TUP_MINGW)-gcc %f tup-version.omingw $(MINGWLDFLAGS) -o tup.exe |> tup.exe tup-version.omingw
23:13:39 <elliott> Then it shows MINGWLINK tup.exe in normal, and the rest of the line dimmed.
23:13:47 <pikhq> : foreach *.c |> build-junk |> %.o
23:14:02 <elliott> pikhq: It figures out the header dependency automatically.
23:14:06 <pikhq> : foo.c foo.h |>|>
23:14:15 <elliott> pikhq: It figures out the header dependency automatically.
23:14:19 <pikhq> elliott: Uh, before a build has happened it has no idea.
23:14:19 <elliott> Isn't that the point of the preload?
23:14:39 <pikhq> And if the header hasn't been generated yet it'll bork.
23:17:20 <pikhq> Oh, well, the macro feature seems to make up for that.
23:17:39 <elliott> <pikhq> : foo.c foo.h |>|>
23:17:41 <elliott> I think that might even work.
23:18:01 <pikhq> Actually, it'd be : foo.c | foo.h |>|> is anything
23:18:35 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: But no optical drive.
23:18:35 <Vorpal> <elliott> I dunno if the SuperDrive works with Ubuntu.
23:18:46 <Vorpal> elliott, so did you find the cd?
23:18:51 <elliott> Vorpal is really obsessed with my other computers.
23:18:59 <Vorpal> elliott, remember you have to repay me for 1234567890 !
23:19:01 <elliott> No, I don't look for things I doubt I'd be able to read on your command.
23:19:12 <elliott> The only other computer I have easy access to is my other laptop.
23:19:14 <elliott> Which lacks an optical drive.
23:19:26 <elliott> I am not going to get my iMac, plug it in, find a keyboard, [...], just for Uplink.
23:19:34 <elliott> If the SuperDrive works, I'll look for Uplink today or tomorrow.
23:19:41 <elliott> I think I know where it is, maybe.
23:25:08 <pikhq> Okay, I am positively amazed at how simple it is to write a build system.
23:25:31 <elliott> It works on Windows, I'd wager the portability stuff is a good chunk of the code.
23:26:11 <elliott> Well, OK, tup is pretty long (thirteen-k lines).
23:26:21 <elliott> But then, it's doing graph manipulation and serialisation... in C.
23:26:33 <elliott> And it's insanely fast, and full-featured.
23:26:45 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, tup has an inotify-based file monitor.
23:26:52 <elliott> Starts the inotify-based file monitor. The monitor must scan the
23:26:52 <elliott> filesystem once and initialize watches on each directory. Then
23:26:52 <elliott> when you make changes to the files, the monitor will see them
23:26:52 <elliott> and write them directly into the database. With the monitor
23:26:52 <elliott> running, 'tup upd' does not need to do the initial scan, and can
23:26:53 <elliott> start constructing the build graph immediately. The "Scanning
23:26:55 <elliott> filesystem..." time from 'tup upd' is approximately equal to the
23:26:57 <elliott> time you would save by running the monitor. When the monitor is
23:26:59 <elliott> running, a 'tup upd' with no file changes should only take a few
23:27:03 <elliott> milliseconds (on my machines I get about 2 or 3ms when
23:27:05 <elliott> everything is in the disk cache). If you restart your computer,
23:27:07 <elliott> you will need to restart the monitor.
23:27:08 <elliott> Gregor: I bet you could easily hook that up to your desired file-changes-auto-rebuild system
23:27:19 <elliott> It'd just have to "tup upd" after writing the database.
23:27:58 <elliott> Hmm... I'm surprised the monitor can't already do that...
23:28:22 <elliott> * I humbly present the Love-Trowbridge (Lovebridge?) recursive directory
23:28:44 <Vorpal> elliott, I was able to pirate 1.31
23:30:27 <copumpkin> ./11.03.09:18:44:07 <pikhq> http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/data/Heisig_complete_v3.rtf Annoyingly, it's RTF.
23:34:30 <elliott> Okay, making the monitor auto-build is hard enough that I'm just going to ask the mailing list to do it :)
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00:15:51 <pikhq> Yup, definitely like Tup.
00:16:52 <elliott> The arrows go up[exclamation mark]
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00:23:42 <pikhq> Making the monitor auto-build is actually easy, it seems.
00:23:52 <pikhq> tup config autoupdate 1
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00:29:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: oh god i've been talking to tktech on reddit without realising it
00:29:47 <elliott> MY MAILING LIST POST WILL LOOK SUPER-STUPID NOW
00:33:09 <pikhq> I think I also approve of gittup.
00:34:12 <pikhq> The idea could have great potential if extended further.
00:35:04 <oerjan> elliott: just post a followup "Never mind. I found it out."
00:35:10 <oerjan> and of course, nothing else.
00:36:06 <elliott> well it's submitted for moderation
00:36:14 <Sgeo> What's elliott's mailing list pos?
00:36:16 <elliott> I just pushed a branch called "fuse" to the public repo. It replaces
00:36:16 <elliott> the ldpreload mechanism with a FUSE wrapper filesystem.
00:36:23 <elliott> Sgeo: mailing lists have a posse
00:36:46 <pikhq> elliott: Nice bit about that is that it'll work on every still-maintained UNIX.
00:37:02 <pikhq> ... Yes, including Hurd.
00:37:05 <elliott> Still. strace would probably be faster.
00:46:39 <elliott> pikhq: So autoupdate just makes the monitor do that, right?
00:46:44 <elliott> btw, you can have a tupdefaults file thing in the latest git
00:46:49 <elliott> so I can set that globally
00:47:28 <pikhq> Yeah, autoupdate does that.
00:48:53 <elliott> Still with all the output? LET'S SAY YES
00:52:00 <elliott> how do i get an on-screen keyboard in ubuntu?
00:52:03 <elliott> i need to type my password.
00:52:36 <coppro> look for accessibility
00:53:58 <elliott> just like keyboard accessibility settings
00:58:15 <elliott> i can't install an on screen keyboard
00:58:18 <elliott> because i have to type my password
00:59:33 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22_(logic)
01:02:22 <Gregor> OK, I have replicated Tapper's tempo adjustment but on a beat-by-beat basis instead of a note-by-note basis.
01:02:34 <elliott> Is that the name of your thing
01:02:57 <Gregor> elliott: http://www.musanim.com/tapper/
01:02:58 <Vorpal> <elliott> i can't install an on screen keyboard <elliott> because i have to type my password <elliott> to install packages
01:03:03 <Vorpal> elliott, can you open a terminal?
01:03:12 <elliott> and use sudo, just not enter my password
01:03:12 <Vorpal> elliott, you can middle click paste into the sudo prompt
01:03:25 <Gregor> elliott: Tapper is what I already know of that does something similar, but is too involved for multi-track files IMHO.
01:03:32 <Vorpal> elliott, you owe me so much now
01:03:45 <elliott> Vorpal: i'll call you bro TEN TIMES
01:03:53 <elliott> we're running out pretty quickly bro
01:04:02 <Gregor> I may recreate Tapper precisely itself while I'm at it since Tapper has some limitations and isn't F/OSS.
01:04:10 <Gregor> ("precisely" = "but with no UI" of course)
01:04:24 <elliott> Gregor: So do you write a EgoMusicFile?
01:04:29 <elliott> Or is it NOT FUN AND DECLARATIVE
01:04:41 <Gregor> elliott: It's MIDI all the way down
01:04:54 <elliott> Gregor: Uhh, how do you tell it how to mix stuff?
01:04:57 <elliott> With a... declarative MIDI file?
01:05:04 <Vorpal> elliott, idea: external keyboard
01:05:11 <elliott> Vorpal: I have one but it sucks and I like this keyboard.
01:05:21 <Gregor> elliott: "How to mix stuff"?
01:05:27 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean, you prefer a keyboard that you can't write 1-8 on?
01:05:34 <elliott> Gregor: Maybe I am misunderstanding your software :)
01:05:41 <Vorpal> elliott, that other keyboard must *really* suck
01:05:42 <elliott> I can mix two MIDI files or whatever into one with your thing, right?
01:06:02 <elliott> "GOK has enabled Sticky Keys, which it requires."
01:06:08 <Gregor> elliott: No, although it does do that as a boring clerical task.
01:06:18 <elliott> Gregor: What's it actually FOR then :P
01:06:33 <Gregor> elliott: The point of what I'm making is to be able to sit while it plays software and with a control panel add tempo, dynamics and other expressive elements.
01:06:43 <Gregor> While it plays MUSIC >_>
01:06:50 <Vorpal> elliott, to interdynamically mix midi!
01:07:04 <Vorpal> (don't ask me what it means, I have no clue)
01:07:07 <Gregor> elliott: A piece of hardware. In my case a NanoKONTROL, but any MIDI-oriented control device should do.
01:07:16 <Gregor> elliott: Or a MIDI keyboard for that matter.
01:07:20 <elliott> That's not reproducable or fuzzy or ANYTHING
01:07:40 <elliott> Guyz: Onscreen keyboard for Linux, I need one
01:07:44 <Gregor> elliott: It produces a tempo or dynamics file which can be recombined into the original MIDI file even after (certain) editing.
01:08:18 <Vorpal> community/matchbox-keyboard 0.1-3
01:08:18 <Vorpal> An on screen virtual keyboard
01:08:19 <Vorpal> extra/gok 2.30.1-1 (gnome-extra)
01:08:19 <Vorpal> Gnome Onscreen Keyboard
01:08:23 <Vorpal> extra/kdeplasma-addons-applets-plasmaboard 4.6.1-1 (kde kdeplasma-addons)
01:08:23 <Vorpal> A virtual, on-screen keyboard
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01:08:31 <Gregor> Vorpal: Those all suck, horribly.
01:08:34 <Gregor> It is amazing how bad they are.
01:08:43 <Vorpal> virtual (graphical) keyboard program for X Window System
01:08:47 <Vorpal> no clue about that one
01:08:50 <Vorpal> might be something else
01:09:05 <Gregor> elliott: It basically doesn't work at all unless you're actually using the WM, and I've never gotten the VM to work properly on anything but a palmtop.
01:09:21 <elliott> How do I even start matchbox-keyboard.
01:09:23 <Vorpal> what about the KDE one?
01:09:26 <elliott> It's not matchbox-keyboard.
01:09:28 <Gregor> Vorpal: I've used xvkbd a lot. It's ... almost tolerable.
01:09:35 <Vorpal> Gregor, okay so that one
01:09:42 <Vorpal> is good or elliott then
01:09:43 <elliott> Gregor: What would you use xvkbd for...
01:10:06 <Gregor> elliott: Had a tablet PC once.
01:10:25 <Vorpal> community/libfakekey 0.1-4
01:10:25 <Vorpal> X virtual keyboard library.
01:10:29 <Vorpal> I'm not sure about that one
01:10:33 <Vorpal> if you want to write your own
01:10:55 <pikhq> Though it revolts me to think about this, I wonder: how sanely could an autoconf/tup build system be made?
01:11:14 <elliott> Vorpal: too ugly to screenshotX ok ok
01:11:17 <Gregor> Anyway, continuing, elliott: My obsession with repeatability isn't about eliminating the human factor, computers simply can't write good music yet, it's about making sure that nothing is lost in the process and everything back to the notation is editable without necessarily having to redo the rest outright.
01:11:17 <elliott> X is now exclamation mark though
01:11:20 <elliott> Vorpal: The best build system evaaar.
01:11:23 <pikhq> Vorpal: Tup is the build system of awesome.
01:11:30 <elliott> It's almost as fast as Mordor.
01:11:36 <elliott> And about five billion times faster than make.
01:11:39 <pikhq> http://gittup.org/tup/
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01:11:55 <elliott> (Make is O(n) by design, tup is O(log[caret][two] by design).
01:12:08 <elliott> (And tup is even optimal in some (most?) cases.)
01:12:10 <pikhq> I don't think log^2 is what you meant.
01:12:15 <elliott> pikhq: I think that's what was in the paper.
01:12:26 <elliott> Or are you whining vs. (log n)[caret][two]
01:12:38 <pikhq> Oh, wait, it actually is O(log^2 n).
01:12:41 <Vorpal> firefox worked perfectly well, trying to open link from irc client gave me "firefox is not responding"
01:12:48 <elliott> I dunno whether that's double log or log squared :P
01:12:51 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, I thought you were trying to write log_2 n. :P
01:13:04 <elliott> pikhq: all logs are the same in O() :)
01:13:11 <Vorpal> <elliott> (Make is O(n) by design, tup is O(log[caret][two] by design). <-- where the fuck is your _ ?
01:13:25 <Vorpal> and why do you call it carret?
01:13:32 <elliott> caret is the name of caret.
01:13:37 <elliott> tup is O(log[caret][two] n).
01:13:38 <Vorpal> elliott, okay wait a second. log²?
01:13:43 <Vorpal> elliott, where did the n go?
01:13:53 <Vorpal> elliott, stop confusing me like that
01:13:59 <Vorpal> elliott, okay now where the fuck is your ^
01:14:01 <elliott> thing I want to type: xvkbd [and] disown
01:14:04 <Vorpal> for me it is next to enter
01:14:11 <elliott> can someone paste an and plz
01:14:23 <Vorpal> elliott, unintentional!
01:14:38 <Vorpal> elliott, now where is the screenshot
01:14:53 <Vorpal> elliott, don't tell me your print screen key is broken too
01:14:55 <pikhq> Vorpal: Here's the US number row, shifted: ~!@#$%^&*()_+ (from ` to =)
01:15:03 <elliott> it doesn't like being focussed
01:15:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, for me it is !"#¤%&/()=
01:15:29 <Gregor> http://i.imgur.com/00IFp.jpg
01:15:38 <Vorpal> elliott, take whole screen screenshot?
01:15:44 <elliott> Vorpal: you'll see all my goat porn
01:16:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, first key is § / ½ then 1, then after 0 you get +' (last one dead key for é) and shifted those are ?` (last one dead key for è)
01:16:29 <Vorpal> elliott, why not focus it and use printscreen?
01:17:19 <Vorpal> alt-printscreen (stupid, collides with magic sysrq!!) does current windows for me
01:17:37 <Vorpal> elliott, take whole screen. Open gimp. Cut it out
01:17:56 <Vorpal> elliott, link to their website? It presumably has screenshots
01:18:10 <Vorpal> elliott, what was the name now again?
01:18:49 <Vorpal> elliott, what, is the issue? (apart from being .gif) http://homepage3.nifty.com/tsato/xvkbd/xvkbd-normal.gif
01:19:00 <Vorpal> elliott, it fits perfectly next to Mosiac
01:19:34 <Vorpal> elliott, but seriously, I'm not bothered about mixed styles
01:19:51 <Vorpal> as long as each program itself is consistent
01:20:42 <Vorpal> elliott, a is NOWHERE NEAR u. How the heck did that happen?
01:21:00 <elliott> The best laid plans o' mice and men / gang aft agley.
01:21:08 <elliott> It sounds kind of like uglyX Let's use it to mean uglyX
01:21:30 <elliott> The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft agley
01:21:36 <Vorpal> elliott, another way, map the menu key to a modifiers, catch it, use that + the row below the numbers to input the numbers
01:21:44 <Vorpal> elliott, should be "trivial" to write such a daemon
01:21:49 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, some other key then
01:22:01 <elliott> fnctrl alt cmd space cmd alt
01:22:04 <elliott> ok i rarely use cmd but still
01:22:06 <elliott> i could also just send it back for repair...
01:22:23 <Vorpal> elliott, you said that would suck so much. Plus my way is cooler
01:22:40 <Vorpal> elliott, it provides security too. No one would figure out how to enter you password
01:22:49 <elliott> anything sucks more than not having my number keys.
01:22:59 <elliott> X is exclamation mark, Q is asterisk
01:23:38 <Vorpal> elliott, wait a second. Should I read "everything sucks more than not having my number keys" *literally*?
01:23:47 <Vorpal> if so you should be happy
01:24:02 <elliott> TOO COMPLICATED FOR TWO AM
01:24:12 <Vorpal> elliott, for example, pink unicorns would suck more
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01:26:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I think you would have to agree that your sentence actually meant: ∀x ¬not_having_number_keys(x) -> sucks_more_than_not_having_number_keys(x)
01:26:47 <Vorpal> though that could be expressed better
01:27:54 <elliott> guys i need another octothorpe
01:28:02 <Vorpal> Given that sucks_more_than(a,b) means that a sucks more than b, we have:
01:28:03 <Vorpal> ∀x ¬is(x,not_having_number_keys) -> sucks_more_than(x,not_having_number_keys)
01:28:09 <elliott> guys i need another octothorpe
01:28:16 <Vorpal> elliott, don't your on screen keyboard have that?
01:28:26 <elliott> Vorpal: sorry for asking help, bro
01:28:37 <Vorpal> elliott, but seriously, doesn't it have it?
01:28:40 <elliott> i had to ask two people there
01:28:55 <elliott> so i have an octothorpe surplus
01:29:02 <elliott> but i bet i'll lose this one before i need another octothorpe
01:29:19 <Vorpal> elliott, WHAT ABOUT YOUR ON SCREEN KEYBOARD?
01:29:34 <Vorpal> elliott, around you, caps lock mapped to that would be useufl
01:29:44 <elliott> BUT HOW WOULD I TALK LIKE THIS?
01:29:50 <Vorpal> oerjan, possibly ¤? Looks a bit like it
01:30:22 <oerjan> Vorpal: i don't see 16 thorpes in that
01:30:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant, caps lock mapped to caps lock would be useful when near you
01:30:40 <Vorpal> oerjan, what is a thrope?
01:30:48 <elliott> thanks fo rthe asterisk Vorpal
01:30:57 <oerjan> whatever there's 8 of in an octothorpe, duh
01:31:11 <Vorpal> elliott, what happened to your on screen keyboard
01:31:13 <oerjan> so obviously ## must have 16
01:31:21 <elliott> Vorpal: i'm just socialising...
01:31:26 <Vorpal> elliott, did it die a horrible death at the hand of the aesthetics?
01:32:24 <elliott> i need an and to start the virtual keyboard again...
01:32:45 <oerjan> just trying to prevent a vicious fight to the death, is all
01:32:53 <Vorpal> elliott, new terminal tab?
01:33:04 <Vorpal> elliott, new terminal tab
01:33:21 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[>++++<-]+.[+.]
01:33:21 <fungot> <CTCP>.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
01:33:34 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[>++++<-]<+.[+.]
01:33:34 <fungot> <CTCP>.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
01:33:35 <lambdabot> bf <expr>. Evaluate a brainf*ck expression
01:33:37 <elliott> actually all i need is two to eight, and shifted versions of that
01:33:45 <elliott> newsham: you're not as cool as the news-ham
01:33:47 <news-ham> Drugs lose effectiveness in space: Scientists at Nasa's Johnson Space Centre have shown that the effectiveness of drugs declines far more rapidly in space than on Earth. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/health-13092523
01:34:06 <newsham> elliott: i cant overcome the ambient temperature here
01:34:14 <Vorpal> elliott, here is a shifted row: ½!"#¤%&/()=?
01:34:27 <news-ham> Big Society 'toothless' - Nichols: The leader of the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales describes David Cameron's Big Society initiative as "toothless". http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-politics-13107287
01:34:32 <elliott> pikhq: Ugh, the monitor daemonises, so autobuild is kinda shit.
01:34:35 <Vorpal> elliott, not at all. It is accurate for me
01:34:43 <olsner> Vorpal: for you but not for elliott
01:34:54 <newsham> newsham < news - ham, solve for e
01:34:56 <Vorpal> olsner, he didn't specify layout
01:35:23 <news-ham> Injured teachers awarded millions: Teachers were awarded millions of pounds in compensation in 2010 for accidents, assaults and injuries, figures released by unions show. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/education-13103243
01:36:13 <news-ham> Croat generals jailed for crimes: Two Croatian military leaders are jailed for war crimes committed in the 1990s, provoking anger in Zagreb where many regard them as war heroes. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-europe-13092438
01:36:31 <Vorpal> elliott, hm in uplink I just saw an "ip" 942.127.295.517
01:36:37 <Vorpal> elliott, that is a strange range
01:37:01 <newsham> > map (`mod` 256) [942,127,295,517]
01:37:25 <oerjan> newsham: i don't think lambdabot's bf has worked for a while. but both fungot and EgoBot have implementations.
01:37:26 <fungot> oerjan: if you're going to be modular, then forcibly load it in gsi, then try to implement your own widgets" thing.
01:37:26 <Vorpal> newsham, uplink is a game, so it doesn't have to make sense
01:37:44 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.
01:37:51 <oerjan> @bf ++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.
01:38:08 <lambdabot> unlambda: Parse error at end of file
01:38:15 <elliott> can you foreground any process in a shell?
01:38:32 <Vorpal> elliott, then fg <number>
01:38:47 <Vorpal> elliott, then what do you mean
01:38:52 <elliott> that outputs to this console
01:38:54 <newsham> you cannot (fg any process)
01:38:56 <elliott> i want to reparent it somehow
01:39:03 <elliott> newsham: well, you could if you turned it into a job... somehow.
01:39:08 <newsham> screen is your friend if you have forethought
01:39:09 <Vorpal> elliott, I think you could with gdb
01:39:14 <Vorpal> elliott, doing some call
01:39:18 <elliott> newsham: no, the program itself daemonises
01:39:23 <elliott> there is no flag to stop it
01:40:02 <newsham> gdb, dup2(open("/dev/tty", O_RDWR), 0); dup2(0,1); dup2(1,2); ?
01:40:12 <newsham> the short answer is that shells dont do that
01:40:17 <elliott> i know. but they should :)
01:40:32 <elliott> i also want to be able to kill it with ctrl+c
01:40:42 <elliott> Vorpal: why are you proposing all these things that you know don't do what i want...
01:40:51 <newsham> i dont think you can get it back into your tty's session without some fork()ing going on.
01:41:00 <Vorpal> elliott, write a short C program that kills it on SIGINT
01:41:00 <newsham> i think you could do it by injecting an appropriate code sequence.
01:41:06 <Vorpal> elliott, run it in forground
01:41:22 <newsham> *easier* solution.. gdb it in such a way as to take out th edaemonize stuff
01:41:29 <elliott> newsham: i could just modify the code :)
01:41:47 <newsham> LD_PRELOAD's a good tool in this situation sometimes
01:41:59 <newsham> ie. make fork() a nop, make close() not work on fd = 0,1,2
01:42:14 <Vorpal> newsham, elliott hates dynamic linking as implemented on *nix
01:42:29 <newsham> dynamic linking is a huge problem that fixes a small one
01:42:30 <elliott> tup itself uses LD_PRELOAD
01:42:33 <elliott> so i'm already using it :)
01:42:50 <newsham> plan9 bins are all statically linked.. you're using the wrong OS ;-)
01:43:16 <elliott> i hate it, but with me, that's like love
01:43:25 <elliott> it's not fiery hatred, or unbelievable hatred, or hatred burning with the passion of a million suns
01:58:56 <Gregor> news-ham: What do you think about newsham?
01:58:57 <news-ham> VIDEO: Bear rescued from tree in New Jersey: A black bear has had to be rescued after becoming stuck in a tree in New Jersey. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-us-canada-13102821
01:59:37 <lambdabot> NEWS: 11.99 -0.01 (-0.08%) @ 4/15/2011 4:00pm
01:59:47 <lambdabot> I'm as happy as a clam in pig's broth.
01:59:55 <Gregor> newsham: Fine, but that news is less ham-inspired.
02:00:09 <Gregor> Also: tempotapper, now with with awesome tempo smoothing 8-D
02:00:43 <newsham> if you want more ham check newsham.com
02:01:29 <elliott> newsham: don't make me registers news-ham.com
02:01:29 <news-ham> The story of our rooms: What does the number and type of rooms say about how houses have evolved over the centuries? http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/magazine-12483492
02:01:36 <elliott> which is just like fifteen headlines on a page
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02:10:20 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
02:10:29 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
02:11:02 <lambdabot> KO: 68.01 -0.30 (-0.44%) @ 4/15/2011 4:00pm
02:11:26 <lambdabot> show all commands or command for [module]. http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
02:12:37 * Sgeo wonders what it would take to safely write a bot that accepts picolisp
02:12:38 <oerjan> it's not on that website either
02:13:05 <oerjan> newsham: putting commands in lambdabot without documentation is a bannable offense on #haskell, right? RIGHT?
02:13:05 <Sgeo> Well, it's trivial to deny access to (call)
02:13:08 <Sgeo> Actually, no it's not
02:13:31 <oerjan> as well as not updating that @list url
02:13:32 <Sgeo> Sure, I could kill the symbol, but if someone gets at the correct address
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02:59:24 <zzo38> What I do know is how to deny access to commands in TeX. It is easy, thing like, \let\input=\relax \let\openout=\relax \let\font=\relax and so on. I do not know how to do with most other programming languages, except perhaps with JavaScript, it can be overriding a lot of things you don't want.
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03:00:50 <zzo38> Also, there is kind of sandbox programs, different one for Windows and for UNIX.
03:06:01 <pikhq> It amuses and disturbs me how web browsers are becoming a complete application environment.
03:06:51 <pikhq> With the recent HTML5 goodies, the main distinction between a native application and an HTML one is that the HTML one has to deal with layers of cruft.
03:07:14 <zzo38> pikhq: Which is I do not use it as such. I prefer command-line program, with native.
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03:08:38 <zzo38> For remote program, we have Telnet and SSH.
03:08:46 <pikhq> I mean, seriously, with Javascript you can actually access the host filesystem with ease.
03:08:55 <pikhq> And then start doing GL graphics.
03:09:23 <pikhq> But you have to deal with a language that is a hack on top of a hack on top of a hack to do so.
03:10:01 <pikhq> (lessee... Javascript, HTML and CSS. The Trinity of Kludge)
03:10:59 <zzo38> That is many of the problem. HTML and that stuff has become too complicated. Is, why I still use plain ASCII text file, and DVI printout file, and gopher protocol, which are not becoming too complicated.
03:12:38 <zzo38> To make a game on other computers, it is possible to make a GameBoy file or NES/Famicom file, too.
03:13:50 <zzo38> pikhq: Do you think I am correct or am I wrong?
03:15:39 <pikhq> zzo38: Well, I'd say you go a *bit* too far.
03:15:55 <pikhq> But you are definitely right that some things have gotten positively absurd.
03:16:03 <pikhq> For instance: Unicode > ASCII.
03:17:21 <zzo38> If it is needed Unicode text, it can be used. I do think there is some problems in the design of Unicode, but it is workable whenever it is needed many different languages and stuff, Unicode is a way to do it, and can be used.
03:18:06 <pikhq> Sure, there's a few problems. But Unicode is so *insanely* better than the mess that came before it.
03:18:29 <zzo38> Well, yes, you are probably correct about that.
03:19:27 <zzo38> But still, when I do not need Unicode, I do not use it. The ASCII codes are also valid codes in Unicode, so it is OK, if UTF-8 is used, a ASCII file is also valid UTF-8 file.
03:19:56 <pikhq> Pretty much the only alternatives are to have a painful text format that indicates what encoding a part is in (Emacs has this), or give up (everything else does this).
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03:26:18 <zzo38> If you only need one encoding though, there is many ways to work such things, in TeX, or in other programs, such as DOS codepages. Such thing can cause incompatibility if for portability of documents (no problem with portability of programs though), so in HTML you use Unicode. You can also use Unicode in other things and convert to a different encoding on the client, if that would help.
03:27:14 <pikhq> The issue is that one encoding doesn't really suffice in a lot of contexts.
03:27:36 <pikhq> I shall note here that ASCII is insufficient for English text. :)
03:27:37 <Sgeo> When does UTF-8 not suffice?
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03:27:49 <Sgeo> I mean, besides random access
03:27:51 <pikhq> Sgeo: Sorry, should've specified. "One language-specific encoding"
03:27:53 <olsner> when unicode doesn't suffice, neither does UTF-8
03:29:11 <zzo38> ASCII is sufficient for most English text. Not all. And sometimes Unicode is not sufficient, unless you can use the private use areas for your own codes
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03:29:35 <pikhq> zzo38: Indeed, Unicode doesn't contain every single glyph.
03:30:21 <pikhq> ASCII isn't even sufficient for people discussing prices in England!
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03:33:53 <zzo38> In some cases ASCII and Unicode are not problems at all, such as in TeX or MegaZeux. In TeX, you can use the non-slanted italic font \char`\$ for the pounds currency symbol. (This is the "cmu10" font in Computers&Typesetting Volume E.)
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03:37:45 <zzo38> (For example, in TeX you can do: \font\uit=cmu10 \def\pound{{\uit\char`\$}} )
03:37:45 * Sgeo_ wants to hear all the background music that was available for WebTV
03:37:51 <Sgeo_> A bit of nostalgia
03:38:01 <elliott> somehow your ignore has been disabled
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03:41:27 <Sgeo_> elliott, did you know that meth is important to Picolisp's OO system?
03:41:43 <elliott> time to remember how to work the ignore command
03:41:53 <elliott> ugh i can't type any of the symbols i need
03:42:45 <Sgeo_> What happened to your keyboard?
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03:49:46 <elliott> Sgeo_: no one to eight keys working
03:50:18 <Sgeo_> 12345678!@#$%^&* please don't ignore me
03:50:46 <elliott> why would you hand me a noose and step on a chair
03:50:53 <elliott> and then say "please don't kill me"
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03:51:55 <zzo38> Does number pad works? Can you use ALT and codes on number pad, too?
03:52:44 <zzo38> elliott: Well, obviously, the reason is so that you reach the light so that it can be replaced!
03:53:23 <zzo38> If the keyboard is broke you had better fix it! Or else to connect a different keyboard.
03:53:33 <elliott> "That's all very well in practice, but how does it work in theory?" --Conor McBride
03:56:23 <elliott> I need a ten Mio/s internet connection.
03:56:24 <quintopia> elliott do you ever drink alcohol?
03:56:28 <elliott> Please respond if your country has such things.
03:56:40 <elliott> Fuck, X has fucked up again.
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03:58:36 <elliott> then it drops to like six hundred Kio/s
03:58:45 <zzo38> Are you trying to download a movie?
03:59:04 <elliott> quintopia: re alcohol: no, why do you ask
03:59:49 <elliott> yep, down to six hundred Kio/s
03:59:58 <zzo38> Then you would need a fast connection obviously. BitTorrent is a protocol for downloading large file such as movies, can stop and start again. Or you might go to the store and buy the tape.
04:00:13 <elliott> You have stores that actually sell VCRs?
04:00:40 <zzo38> Yes we do have, but not very commonly.
04:02:16 <olsner> you do? so, what decade are you connecting from?
04:03:02 <quintopia> elliott: i was drinking when i was your age because it was cool and yay parties, but you aren't anything like me. nowadays i like beer and cocktails for the taste
04:03:11 <zzo38> The calendar is the same where I live.
04:03:29 <elliott> quintopia: i think i've been to like five parties in my entire life
04:03:50 <elliott> i think it's where everyone gets together and is stupid, communally
04:03:59 * elliott upholding stereotypes since ????
04:04:32 <zzo38> A party is something like that. Not quite. Look in the dictionary for a more precise definition.
04:05:24 <quintopia> what about caffeine? you like hacker drinks?
04:05:43 <elliott> define hacker drinks. that's an insanely insipid-sounding phrase.
04:07:39 <pikhq> I quite like alcohol.
04:07:59 <pikhq> Most people's treatment of it I despise, but alcoholic beverages have a quite enjoyable flavor.
04:08:30 <elliott> no they don't, you just think they do because they make you drunk :)
04:08:38 <pikhq> elliott: I have yet to become drunk.
04:08:45 <elliott> ok: they make you inebriated.
04:08:50 <zzo38> pikhq: Did you make a drunk-test?
04:08:51 <elliott> they put alcohol into your blood stream.
04:09:00 <pikhq> I have yet to even become notably intoxicated.
04:09:15 <elliott> pikhq: you think you're that good at observing yourself?
04:09:25 <elliott> quintopia: i find there is no credible evidence that people like alcoholic drinks because they taste good
04:09:29 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, I'm just aware of the quantities I drink in a sitting along with my mass.
04:09:33 <quintopia> also, by hacker drinks i mean coffee, bawls, and mountain dew
04:09:47 <elliott> additionally, those who are meant to judge the taste of alcoholic drinks and get paid for it, do not do so
04:09:54 <elliott> wine critics have been shown to basically be complete unintentional frauds
04:09:59 <zzo38> I think 2600 sells Club-Mate. But you might also find things in jargon file, for some things about hackers drinks.
04:10:09 <zzo38> Can you make a drunk-test with a video camera?
04:10:18 <quintopia> elliott: well, credible is a relative term. i find that people who don't like alcoholic beverages have never tried any that actually taste good, myself
04:10:56 <elliott> quintopia: let's say beer tastes nice. why is non-alcoholic beer not all that popular?
04:11:08 <quintopia> because it doesn't taste like beer
04:11:11 <pikhq> elliott: I sum up wine this way: there's a huge difference between a $1 bottle of wine and a $10. There's not a huge difference between a $10 and a $100 bottle of wine.
04:11:22 <elliott> quintopia: so, beer only tastes like beer if it has alcohol in it?
04:11:34 <quintopia> i have yet to find a non-alcoholic ale
04:11:46 <quintopia> those non-alcoholic beers are typically shitty lagers
04:12:00 <elliott> plenty of people drink shitty lagers.
04:12:08 <quintopia> so i'm gonna go with "yes" although it doesn't matter the actual amount of alcohol
04:12:13 <pikhq> Shitty lagers you don't drink for the taste. :P
04:12:24 <elliott> alcoholic drinks you don't drink for the taste
04:12:25 <quintopia> maybe someday someone will make a non-alcoholic beer that tastes good but i'm not holding my breath
04:12:32 <elliott> note: i am not condemning alcohol consumption in any way
04:12:49 <pikhq> Also, are you aware that it's only recently that low-alcoholic beers have not been popular, right?
04:12:57 <quintopia> people who drink shitty lagers drink them because they have alcohol in hem
04:12:58 <elliott> pikhq: low-alcohol is not non-alcoholic
04:13:01 <zzo38> O, I don't drink alcoholic.
04:13:09 <elliott> I am merely saying that the evidence I see points to alcoholic beverages being popular in large part because they are alcoholic.
04:13:25 <elliott> I believe that they, yes, taste good to people, but this is their brain tricking them because _it associates them with happy feelings_.
04:13:35 <pikhq> 1-2% ABV is not going to anything at all.
04:13:37 <elliott> If you don't think your brain is that good at deluding you... lol[exclamation mark]
04:13:44 <elliott> pikhq: not anything externally noticeable
04:13:47 <quintopia> people who drink shitty lager drink them because they are alcoholic. this much i will agree with you
04:14:07 <pikhq> elliott: And 0.5% ABV is "non-alcoholic".
04:14:25 <pikhq> (i.e. can be sold to children legally in the US)
04:14:29 <elliott> pikhq: I would also wager that such-low-alcohol-content beers taste very different from popular beers.
04:14:44 <elliott> Less alcohol, better it has to taste to be popular.
04:14:55 <elliott> Let me clarify my statement.
04:15:06 <quintopia> i guess i've gotten an answer to my question
04:15:23 <elliott> Most drinks with medium-to-high or at least high alcoholic content are drunk not because they taste good, but because they are alcoholic. This is unbeknownst to the drinkers.
04:15:27 <quintopia> someone let me know if they invent a non-alcoholic Ramos Gin Fizz
04:15:51 <elliott> I'm not counting mixed drinks here, btw.
04:16:24 <quintopia> so you're basically rejecting all the delicious cocktails in the world? how is that reasonable?
04:17:03 <elliott> I'm saying that it's perfectly plausible cocktails are drunk because they taste nice.
04:17:15 <elliott> But I doubt this of beers and wines for various reasons.
04:17:21 <pikhq> But cocktails are much higher in alcohol.
04:17:28 <elliott> Well, that they taste nice independent of their having alcohol.
04:17:38 <elliott> pikhq: Yes, but they're generally mixed _to taste nice_.
04:17:39 <pikhq> Which is why they are consumed in small quantities.
04:17:45 <quintopia> elliott: i /like/ the taste of /alcohol itself/. sometimes i sniff hand sanitizer because i like the /smell/ of alcohol. i don't get drunk from sniffing hand sanitizer. how does this fit into your worldview?
04:18:03 <elliott> quintopia: Some chemicals smell nice. Hand sanitiser definitely does.
04:18:08 <elliott> Beer and wine don't smell like hand sanitiser.
04:18:16 <elliott> Your statement is irrelevant.
04:18:18 * pikhq fucking sips shots.
04:18:26 <elliott> bro i drink shots from the bottleX
04:18:54 <quintopia> so your argument is simply "beer and wine don't taste good. people who like them like them because they get drunk"?
04:19:14 <elliott> quintopia: No, they like them because their brain says good things to them when they drink them.
04:19:20 <elliott> This manifests as a perception of good taste, etc.
04:19:27 <quintopia> okay, what about hard liquor? would you say agavero doesn't taste good?
04:19:27 <elliott> This is because the brain knows they do nice things, i.e. alcohol.
04:19:30 <zzo38> You should fix your computer. It cannot work very good if the exclamation mark is broken, and the others are also broke!
04:19:51 <elliott> quintopia: I haven't tasted it, so I can't possibly comment. I am going only by the evidence I have observed (and some others arguing the same or similar).
04:20:37 <quintopia> i'm going to have to conclude that you can't believe unmixed alcoholic beverages can taste good just because you haven't had any that taste good
04:20:58 <elliott> It's impossible to make conclusions from evidenceX
04:21:01 <elliott> You need PERSONAL EXPERIENCEX
04:21:15 <elliott> How can you say God isn't Real if you've never Accepted Him into your heart and Felt him???
04:21:21 <pikhq> Actually, it's just that you are ignoring some evidence.
04:21:22 <Sgeo_> elliott, what is your evidence?
04:21:32 <elliott> Sgeo_: see: everything [caret]
04:21:32 <quintopia> but you're right about one thing: most popular beers and wines SUCK BALLS
04:21:36 <pikhq> Namely, the actual flavor of things.
04:21:52 <elliott> pikhq: _I am arguing that your perception of the flavour of those things is innately biased and flawed_.
04:22:03 <elliott> Again: _I am not saying that drinking alcohol is bad, wrong, not pleasurable, anything._
04:22:19 <elliott> I'm saying that the taste of these beverages COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT FROM THEIR BEING PART OF AN ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGE is not, in itself, good.
04:22:27 <elliott> Or, not even not good: just not the reason they are consumed.
04:22:42 <Sgeo_> Does such a concept exist "taste independent of the alcohol"?
04:22:43 <pikhq> elliott: So, you are arguing that the qualia I am experiencing is distinct from the "real" flavor.
04:22:53 <quintopia> and i counter that with: i would drink them even if they did not contain alcohol.
04:23:22 <zzo38> quintopia: Can you try?
04:23:28 <elliott> Sgeo_: Consider the same taste in a non-alcoholic beverage.
04:23:29 <pikhq> elliott: BTW, I should here remind you that root beer is an actual beer. And it is very effing popular. :)
04:23:30 <quintopia> even if the alcohol did not have these effects
04:23:34 <elliott> Or just consider people's _first taste_ of it.
04:23:38 <elliott> pikhq: Root beer tastes nothing like beer :P
04:23:56 <Sgeo_> Wait, are you saying I've drunk beer before???
04:23:58 <elliott> quintopia: You might now because you've made the association. I don't think you would if you had never had them before.
04:24:04 <pikhq> elliott: Well, no, it's brewed from different substances.
04:24:07 <elliott> Sgeo_: ?????????????????????????????? No.
04:24:24 <elliott> quintopia: (Unless you have really _weird_ tastes.)
04:24:42 * pikhq liked his very first taste of beer.
04:24:45 <quintopia> elliott: well that goes without saying. but then you're argument loses all credibility if you say "if you had not acquired the taste you wouldn't like it"
04:25:29 <elliott> pikhq: Either it was one of the (less popular because the real taste doesn't matter) beverages that actually taste nice, you have really weird tastes, or your brain is so good at deducing things that it realised it was going to get some alcohol and decided to intervene.
04:25:30 <quintopia> lots of tastes require some acquiring, but it doesn't mean that the particular effects of alcohol are needed to acquire them
04:25:42 <elliott> quintopia: I am saying that the taste would be not be acquired if not for the alcohol.
04:25:53 <pikhq> elliott: I have yet to have all-American pisswater. :P
04:26:33 <quintopia> i bet within a few years, i'll like the taste of tomato
04:26:54 <elliott> Go drink some piss, you'll get acquired to it.
04:26:58 <pikhq> elliott: And I probably do have somewhat weird tastes.
04:26:59 <elliott> Especially if you add some alcohol.
04:27:39 <zzo38> Do you like to taste your own arm?
04:27:49 <elliott> hehehehehhehe, from a quick google:
04:27:53 <quintopia> i think you can acquire any taste, with or without alcohol, if you taste it enough
04:27:54 <elliott> 1. Since alcohol is flavourless, why is it that all the most interesting-tasting drinks have alcohol in them?"
04:28:06 <pikhq> Actually, given that I sip beverages that most people slam down to avoid the taste of, I almost certainly have weird tastes.
04:28:15 <quintopia> the brain is not so simple that it requires the endorphin-pleasure feedback loop to accept something new
04:28:34 <elliott> quintopia: no, but it sure helps.
04:28:36 <elliott> besides, alcohol is more complex than that.
04:28:37 <pikhq> elliott: Alcohol isn't even vaguely flavorless. It's a pretty dang strong flavor, in fact.
04:28:42 <elliott> unless you think intoxication is just happiness
04:28:50 <elliott> pikhq: yeah yeah that's not the point
04:28:55 <pikhq> Besides, alcohol doesn't cause the release of endorphins.
04:28:57 <elliott> they taste so interesting /because/ of the alcohol.
04:29:10 <elliott> Alcohol affects the reward centres of the brain, thereby tricking you into believing that an otherwise ordinary drink “tastes interesting”. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00ndtxm"
04:30:10 <quintopia> what if we, for the sake of argument, assume that the pleasure derived from the taste of alcohol is backed by experience with the effects of alcohol
04:30:42 <elliott> ...You think this is me justifying why I don't drink alcohol?
04:31:27 <elliott> I haven't tried alcohol because I feel no particular need to. I am pretty sure there are more interesting drugs.
04:31:52 <pikhq> quintopia: He seems to be arguing that the qualia of "good taste" is entirely distinct from the "real" taste of an alcoholic beverage. Which begets the question, how can there be a "real" taste distinct from the experienced qualia, anyways?
04:32:15 <elliott> pikhq: Say you had some medicine that negates all of alcohol's effects on you.
04:32:21 <elliott> Say you started drinking beer for the first time, and continued.
04:32:24 <zzo38> pikhq: Try making such an experiment.
04:32:27 <elliott> It would not taste nearly as nice as it does for you in reality.
04:32:27 <quintopia> pikhq: PRETTY MUCH but i guess i don't care anymore :)
04:32:52 <elliott> quintopia: re: interesting -- Alcohol makes people outwardly boring, and inwardly and outwardly rather thick.
04:33:05 <quintopia> elliott: what drug is more interesting?
04:33:05 <elliott> Neither are too appealing to me; I don't find the relaxing aspect appealing enough in comparison.
04:33:10 <pikhq> elliott: You're talking to a guy who has consumed straight coffee beans and enjoyed it. :P
04:33:27 <quintopia> pikhq: that's not so weird. roasted coffee beans are delicious
04:33:28 <elliott> quintopia: Not alcohol? I wasn't thinking of anything in particular, I'm just saying that as drugs go, alcohol is a pretty boring one.
04:33:50 <quintopia> elliott: okay, so which ones do you plan to try due to them being more interesting?
04:34:06 <zzo38> Make up your own drugs! See what goes wrong with it (if any)!
04:34:15 <elliott> I have no short-term or medium-term plans to try out any drugs. I have no long-term plans at all for anything.
04:34:22 <quintopia> zzo38: good idea. you go first and get back o us
04:34:32 <pikhq> Meanwhile: mmm, rum.
04:34:38 <zzo38> How can I write the report if I am dead?
04:34:56 <quintopia> zzo38: if you feel like you're gonna die, start writing really fast
04:35:05 <zzo38> elliott: You should.
04:35:12 <elliott> type zero to nine and press enter
04:35:29 <quintopia> elliott: so do you find no drugs interesting enough to experiment with?
04:35:50 <pikhq> quintopia: Well, he clearly does consume caffeine.
04:35:52 <elliott> quintopia: Nope. I merely have no short-term or medium-term plans to try out any drugs.
04:35:58 <elliott> pikhq: Yesyesyes and food is a drug too
04:35:58 <pikhq> He is an Englishman, after all.
04:35:59 <zzo38> It is not a very good substitute for fixing your computer.
04:36:10 <elliott> quintopia: One might note that I make exceedingly few plans in general.
04:36:34 <pikhq> elliott: A depressant in the case of English food.
04:36:46 <quintopia> elliott: let's say someone just hands you the stuff and you haven't got anything else going on. would you do it?
04:36:57 <elliott> quintopia: Define "the stuff".
04:37:06 <elliott> Or cocaine. Or heroin. etc. :P
04:37:12 <pikhq> Though there's a lot of bad, depressing food out of the US, too.
04:37:21 <elliott> quintopia: This is the worst game of twenty questions ever.
04:37:33 <pikhq> And then there's a lot of stuff that's just likely to kill you.
04:37:39 <pikhq> (looking at *you*, South)
04:37:51 <quintopia> elliott: is the drug animal, vegetable or mineral?
04:38:13 <elliott> quintopia: But seriously though, I don't really have a list of "drugs I will try right now", it's more of a black-box predicate.
04:38:14 <pikhq> quintopia: I am the very model of a modern major general.
04:38:22 <elliott> pikhq: wrt the south: I once made iced tea without actually brewing the tea
04:38:33 <elliott> that is, usa-style iced tea
04:38:36 <pikhq> elliott: What, like sun tea?
04:38:51 <elliott> it was actually in a fridge.
04:39:00 <elliott> step one fill jug with water
04:39:06 <elliott> step three MUSH TEABAGS IN
04:39:09 <elliott> step four leave the tea bags in
04:39:13 <elliott> step four fridge for like two hours
04:39:24 <pikhq> elliott: Fail. To do it "right" you let it sit in the sun for an hour and then ice it.
04:39:27 <elliott> step three pour out, ice, put sugar-rotting materials in if you want
04:39:28 <quintopia> okay that's not sweet tea but it sounds good too
04:39:40 <elliott> pikhq: no trust me it was delicious
04:39:41 <zzo38> I have not yet should try things with drugs at this time, I have many other things to work on and will not be able to complete it if I am dead. When I am finish and I am sure I have nothing else to work on, ever, then others can make the decision to test death drugs with me or to eat me or talk to me in a language I do not know or whatever. But should not too pain??
04:39:46 <elliott> it got a really tea-like flavour
04:39:53 <elliott> but without the sort of bitterness you get from brewed tea
04:40:02 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, so not much fail.
04:40:03 <elliott> i should make some more of that.
04:40:14 <elliott> zzo38: You realise there are drugs that don't kill you.
04:40:24 <quintopia> zzo38: say that again in english please
04:40:40 <zzo38> elliott: But still I don't want to, though. At least not now.
04:40:43 <elliott> quintopia: sorry, only zzothree-eightglish is available
04:41:38 <pikhq> zzo38: Okay, so you won't try meth.
04:42:21 <quintopia> the proper way to make sweet tea is to start with simple syrup and then add tea :D
04:42:23 <pikhq> (you know it's fucking scary if it causes *anhedonia*)
04:42:52 <elliott> quintopia: i don't think black boxes like being brute forced, but i've got two results: i would probably try cannabis if someone offered it. i would not try lsd if someone just gave me some and said "heyyy, take this!"
04:42:54 <quintopia> but i think most people don't understand southern food
04:43:01 <elliott> i understand southern food
04:43:09 <elliott> and it doesn't have shitloads of sugar in it
04:43:15 <pikhq> quintopia: Oh, southern food is easy to understand the appeal of.
04:43:21 <pikhq> quintopia: It is fucking delicious.
04:43:26 <zzo38> I don't care what it causes or not, I do not try at this time, please.
04:43:29 <quintopia> elliott: that's not true. collard greens and mustard greens with pepper sauce are acceptable
04:43:41 <elliott> quintopia: can we call that "lesser southern food"?
04:43:42 <quintopia> also, i knew a guy in spain who thought all porridges should be sweet
04:43:50 <quintopia> therefore he didn't understand salty grits
04:43:52 <pikhq> elliott: No, it's pretty quintessentially southern.
04:44:06 <elliott> yeah i do not get savoury porridge?
04:44:11 <elliott> there is one dish called porridge in the uk
04:44:25 <elliott> it is porridge oats, with milk, salt, and usually sugar
04:44:33 <elliott> served as hot as you can make it
04:44:37 <elliott> why is other porridge necessary
04:44:38 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, so that's what the UK "porridge" is.
04:44:40 <elliott> that is pretty much perfect porridge
04:44:47 <quintopia> like i said. most non-southerners don't get southern food ;D
04:44:57 <elliott> pikhq: what do you USians EAT for breakfast in winter??
04:45:00 <elliott> pancakes aren't THAT warming
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04:45:08 <pikhq> elliott: I have no idea what that's called in the US, except "oatmeal with milk".
04:45:20 <quintopia> i always make my oatmeal with milk....
04:45:27 <elliott> porridge looks kinda gross first time, but trust me it's absolutely delicious
04:45:37 <pikhq> elliott: USians eat that.
04:45:49 <copumpkin> it looks like someone ate it once, then threw it up
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04:45:55 <elliott> pikhq: IF IT'S NOT QUAKER OATS IT IS NOT REAL PORRIDGE
04:45:55 <copumpkin> in fact, I don't think you'd be able to tell if someone did
04:46:06 <elliott> copumpkin: choke on a dick, anti-porridge loser
04:46:09 <elliott> wait aren't you even from the UK
04:46:13 <elliott> how can you express such sentiment
04:46:18 <elliott> well ok i suppose it is _factually_ true
04:46:25 <pikhq> elliott: "Oatmeal" refers to just steel-cut oats in the US.
04:46:41 <quintopia> rolled oats are also used in oatmeal
04:46:44 <elliott> why do you just fail to alt tab
04:46:45 <copumpkin> I'm not a very authentic englishman though
04:47:28 <pikhq> elliott: Quaker Oats is, indeed, the brand of choice.
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04:50:02 <pikhq> oerjan: Think you could /invite elliott #esoteric
04:50:29 <pikhq> He seems to be having trouble copy-pasting splat.
04:51:20 <zzo38> elliott is connected.
04:51:34 <pikhq> Yes, but he can't /join.
04:51:40 <zzo38> But they should fix their computer before connecting!
04:52:02 <zzo38> Don't use INVITE, use KILL so that they can get a chance to fix their computer.
04:52:05 <quintopia> and its all "you're not channel operator"
04:52:12 <pikhq> Need to be an op. Hence asking oerjan.
04:52:49 <pikhq> He shuts his computer off when he goes to bed.
04:53:21 <zzo38> You can use CS ACCESS #esoteric LIST for list of who is the access list for channel operator of ChanServ-based channels. Yes, oerjan is on there, too.
04:54:57 <Gregor> pikhq: Why am I being ?d?
04:55:12 <pikhq> Gregor: /invite elliott #esoteric
04:55:38 <pikhq> ... Wait, did you get put on the op list?
04:55:42 <pikhq> Because I'm not an op.
04:55:48 <zzo38> [Hay, I invented a F.O.S.S. program language called #Hitler, that's too bad!] [PS. This is not a true statement I just made it up to show you]
04:55:52 <oerjan> ...why can't he copy-paste #?
04:55:56 <pikhq> I thought you had been, but maybe that's just my mind going "He damned well should be".
04:56:40 <monqy> does that mean you are some op
04:56:45 <pikhq> Welp, elliott is screwed. He should consider getting a new whatever-is-borken.
04:57:03 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
04:57:03 <zzo38> Does not require typing 12345678!@#$%^&*
04:57:15 <zzo38> But still it ought to be he fixed the compute first before trying again, please !!!
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04:57:34 <elliott> i gotta know how this came to be
04:57:34 <pikhq> Congrats on whatever you did working.
04:57:38 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
04:58:02 <oerjan> elliott: someone said you couldn't copy/paste #?
04:58:14 <elliott> like rain on your wedding day
04:58:28 <zzo38> Now your computer is broken please fixed it.
04:59:06 <elliott> quintopia: um something something spoons knife ironic don't you think
04:59:10 <zzo38> elliott: It doesn't matter, fix it anyways, please.
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04:59:13 <oerjan> ^def nr ul (|1234567890+\!"#¤%&/()=?`)S
04:59:20 <elliott> oerjan: that is not the proper shifting
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04:59:32 <elliott> exclamation mark at gbp-sign dollar percent caret and asterisk
04:59:33 <oerjan> it's what my keyboard does
04:59:50 <elliott> to go to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_food
04:59:57 <elliott> i cannot copy-paste you see
05:00:03 <zzo38> `1234567890-=\~!@#$%^&*()_+|
05:00:07 <elliott> Every day is Family Day When Real Men Cook.
05:00:23 <elliott> so anyway i am about to god to sleep
05:00:36 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
05:00:42 <elliott> btw someone remind me to check the TODO file tomorrow
05:00:47 <zzo38> If you cannot fix it yourself, go to the store tell them to fixed for you.
05:00:50 <elliott> oerjan: you want caret-show
05:00:58 <elliott> and there is no apple store anywhere near
05:01:04 <pikhq> oerjan: Your keyboard is weird and Norwegian.
05:01:05 <elliott> or indeed computer store competent in any capacity
05:01:07 <zzo38> Then sleep, and fix it tomorrow instead.
05:01:13 <elliott> zzo38: that is my intention.
05:01:22 <pikhq> oerjan: 1234567890!@#$%^&*()
05:01:30 <pikhq> oerjan: That's how AMERICA intended it.
05:01:52 <elliott> YOU FORGOT THE POUND SYMBOL
05:01:56 <elliott> IN PALCE OF THE OCTOTHORPE
05:02:05 <elliott> FUN FACT, COTOTHORPE IS SOMETIME CALLED POUND SYMBOL IN AMERICA
05:02:09 <elliott> IS NOT THE REAL POUND SYMBOL THAT IS THERE
05:02:10 <zzo38> Alternately design the keyboard with " instead of @ at SHIFT+2 if you want the ASCII order following more closely.
05:02:31 <elliott> because " is out of reach and ascii is irrelevant
05:03:08 <pikhq> " is right next to enter here.
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05:03:23 <pikhq> Well, ' is the lowercase.
05:03:40 <pikhq> Right, the UK keyboard has tiny-enter syndrome.
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05:05:13 <oerjan> ^def nr (`1234567890-=~!@#$%^&*()_+)S
05:05:13 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
05:05:20 <oerjan> ^def nr ul (`1234567890-=~!@#$%^&*()_+)S
05:07:19 * oerjan remembered his change keyboard language shortcut
05:07:20 <zzo38> I also think there is a few problem with ASCII order, but it is still the one we have to use. I did make up a new experimental order or character codes, where 'A' is immediately after '9' and the codes for ']'==('['|0x10) the same to ')' and '}' as well. But the <=> is still in the order <=> like it is in ASCII.
05:07:36 <oerjan> which i know mainly because i accidentally keep pressing it sometimes
05:08:24 <oerjan> just one problem, ^ is in there :D
05:08:27 <zzo38> Is it a good idea to you, if the codes were designed like this, instead of how it actually is?
05:08:35 <pikhq> zzo38: We could use EBCDIC order.
05:08:47 <oerjan> in fact _all_ our bot prefixes are in there
05:08:50 <zzo38> No, EBCDIC order is even more problem than ASCII
05:09:14 <pikhq> I wasn't saying it was a good idea. Just that we're not stuck with ASCII. :P
05:09:18 <oerjan> well not all lambdabot's prefixes
05:09:35 <quintopia> damnit. my alliance in emross war is now in a heated religion debate.
05:09:44 <quintopia> fuck religion. always causing arguments
05:10:26 <zzo38> pikhq: OK, I can understand you, but still, do you think my order would be considered a better idea?
05:11:26 <zzo38> Also my idea has the other feature, like ASCII, which is one of the other good feature of ASCII, that you can do bitwise XOR one bit to switch uppercase/lowercase.
05:17:06 <quintopia> 65=A, 97=a so...changing the 5th bit is enough
05:17:26 <quintopia> what is your idea that preserves that
05:17:55 <quintopia> unicode has ascii as a subset yes?
05:18:02 <zzo38> It is a new experimental encoding I made up. The letters are still in alphabetical order and it still preserves that.
05:18:22 <zzo38> And, yes, the ASCII codes are same as Unicode codes 0 to 127.
05:22:48 <zzo38> A few things. One is that 'A' comes immediately after '9' ('9'+1=='A'). Another is the way of pairing [](){} delimiters. There is also the way of how to shorten it for smaller codes, 7-bits, 6-bits, 5-bits, etc, will work without as much complication as you would shorten codes of other encodings.
05:22:49 <pikhq> quintopia: There's no requirement that any UTF actually map sanely, though.
05:22:53 <Gregor> Unlike Tapper, my notetapper generates a MIDI file that's still notationable 8-D
05:23:07 <pikhq> quintopia: For instance, UTF-EBCDIC.
05:23:24 <zzo38> Also, some things that ASCII omits are included, such as British pound money.
05:23:25 <pikhq> Gregor: But will it blend?
05:23:46 <Gregor> pikhq: Since it does not have physical manifestation, I'm gonna go with "no"
05:23:50 <quintopia> what kind of soda have you got for us this week
05:24:54 <Gregor> I'm actually getting decently close to Moxie.
05:25:00 <Gregor> Still doesn't have the right bitter bite though.
05:30:25 <pikhq> Doesn't hops also have a bit of a spiciness to it, though?
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05:51:24 <newsham> oerjan: what commands arent documented?
05:52:38 <fungot> quintopia: it's non-linear, so you are saying that: not all fsa qualify as that :) but if it's something like a multiple choice question.
06:15:36 <Sgeo_> I think I'm going to take a Tylenol
06:16:20 <Sgeo_> (rename 'tylenol 'cough-syrup)
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06:24:19 <oerjan> newsham: @tick for example?
06:25:24 <oerjan> i'm sure there were others last i tried but that may be a long time ago
06:25:50 <oerjan> quintopia: for lambdabot
06:26:18 <lambdabot> run <expr>. You have Haskell, 3 seconds and no IO. Go nuts!
06:26:24 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
06:26:29 <lambdabot> bf <expr>. Evaluate a brainf*ck expression
06:26:42 <oerjan> not that i can recall what they were
06:27:09 <zzo38> Is there program converting other font formats into TFM and GF formats?
06:35:11 <oerjan> > is an abbreviation for @run
06:36:04 <zzo38> I found some list that says "Select Language" and it translate by Google Translate, but there are no choices in the list!!
06:36:05 <oerjan> :t for @type and :k for @kind. and ? is equivalent to @. iirc.
06:36:40 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
06:36:46 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
06:36:50 <lambdabot> kind <type>. Return the kind of a type
06:36:55 <lambdabot> type <expr>. Return the type of a value
06:37:00 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
06:37:14 <oerjan> none of which abbreviations is documented eithe
06:40:33 <Ilari> Hah, someone did video about testing NAT^30.
06:43:24 <Ilari> E.g. Dropped connection speed to about one fourth.
06:50:14 <quintopia> you must be a slow taker of tylenol
06:51:00 <Sgeo_> I was wavering on whether or not to take it
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08:15:31 <oerjan> mind blown http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/grpv6/til_why_zippers_have_ykk_on_them_the_ykk_stands/
08:17:13 <quintopia> i should visit that factory sometime
08:19:04 <oerjan> i just checked 4 zippers and they all were YKK
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08:20:28 <quintopia> all the clothing zippers i knows of are
08:20:42 <quintopia> but luggage zippers are rarely ykk
08:22:23 <oerjan> ah, right, i just checked two bags and they weren't
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09:46:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Ooh, you can get into the Reynholm Industries staff intranet.
09:50:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I never heard of that company, what is it?
09:51:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh okay.
09:51:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so a publicity stunt then?
09:53:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Did they set up a fake router connected to the internet to which they connected multiple computers or did they do something less realistic?
09:54:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, by the way, Cosmos is great
09:54:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the science is of course a bit outdated in some areas
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10:28:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh my god all of the IT Crowd's latest season is on YouTube.
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10:47:08 <Vorpal> elliott: figured out the screwiness. in global.h #define TESTGAME was on
10:47:22 <Vorpal> elliott: I'm currently recompiling without it
10:52:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, pings work better when the person at whom they are directed is online.
10:53:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, he log reads
11:02:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yay I now have a x86-64 uplink 1.31 that works properly!
11:03:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah, but did you pay for the developer cd?
11:04:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway it is 37 MB. Probably because of debug symbols.
11:04:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this is after all C++
11:05:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you need the right data files. That adds another 20 MB or so
11:05:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you need the exact right version of the data files, or it won't work
11:06:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this version still has the debug mode with cheat menu in it (which worked on old release versions of uplink btw)
11:07:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Does it still have that slightly game-breaking bank hack, BtW?
11:07:46 <Phantom_Hoover> The one where you can get a million credits or so before the main plot even starts.
11:11:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't know how that one works
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11:25:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you concentrate your software purchases on bank security, which, whilst by no means trivial, is still breakable with low-level hardware and software.
11:26:17 <Phantom_Hoover> You hack into a bank, find an account with a balance in the hundred thousand to million range, transfer funds, cover tracks.
11:26:35 <Phantom_Hoover> You now have more money than you can conceivably spend over the course of the normal game.
11:27:11 <Phantom_Hoover> You can buy the best computer, fit it out entirely, destroy it if tracked and start from scratch again *several times*.
11:28:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, did they fix it later on?
11:29:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, they might have hardened the bank's security or made the tools needed to crack it more expensive.
11:35:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this one is somewhat buggy I just found. Or at least missing something 1.54 had which I found very useful
11:35:48 <Vorpal> which was to click on the world map to remove a node midway through
11:36:05 <Vorpal> extremely annoying when you want to save a long prepared route
11:36:12 <Vorpal> and then just modify it for your temporary needs
11:36:20 <Vorpal> I'm going to check if I can implement that
11:37:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I mean if I have A-B-C-D-E-F and save it, as a prepared long jump route, I could in 1.54 click load, then if I wanted to access D I could click it once, to remove it from the route, then click it again to add it to the end
11:37:15 <Vorpal> I can't do that in this version
11:37:19 <Vorpal> which I find very annoying
11:38:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, plus it doesn't colourise nodes. You can't select "colour this node" in your main screen list. And it doesn't add colour to the target nodes of current missions.
11:38:41 <Vorpal> and there is no "filter" on the main screen list
11:38:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, 1.54 at least colour your target system green
11:39:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Check if it still flashes Revelation-infected systems red.
11:39:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I haven't got that far yet. So I can't tell.
11:39:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, mmm there is a button for it in the built in development build cheat thingy. Anyway going to add the route editing first.
11:40:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, because the code is not there
11:40:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I meant, for route editing
11:40:36 <Vorpal> it is not there, there is "remove last" and "add to end"
11:40:45 <Vorpal> oh god, they use their own LList, which seems like std::list or whatever... but different
11:41:11 <Vorpal> lets see how painful this thing will be...
11:41:33 <Vorpal> T GetData ( int index );// slow unless sequential
11:41:33 <Vorpal> void RemoveData ( int index );// slow
11:42:00 <Vorpal> a linked list, but keeps a pointer to last accessed index. I think.
11:42:29 <Vorpal> also I'm confused how this works at all. templates but the code in a .cpp?
11:47:22 <olsner> Vorpal: what are you looking at?
11:48:38 <olsner> linked lists that even *have* functions on indices are just Wrong
11:50:11 <olsner> because linked lists don't do that efficiently :)
11:53:58 <Vorpal> <olsner> Vorpal: what are you looking at? <-- uplink source code
11:54:21 <Vorpal> olsner, C++ from around 2000
11:54:36 <olsner> then I think you should use a data structure that does that, like an array or a dictionary...
11:54:53 <olsner> or rather, you should write your code to require the "indexed access" interface - and a linked list would be a poor way to implement that interface
11:55:10 <Vorpal> olsner, I'm not going to rewrite the game. I'm just fixing small things.
11:55:26 <Vorpal> olsner, I'd rewrite the game the day you rewrite mosaic.
11:55:33 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, if a linked list is best for other reasons, but you need the nth element occasionally?
11:56:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it actually does sequential access using nth + caching last position. The interface is somewhat sucky yes, but I'm not sure C++ iterator objects is a better solution!
11:56:47 <Vorpal> okay, time to see if this works
11:57:28 <Vorpal> strange that I didn't need to edit any GUI code for this
11:58:01 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: meh, ok then :P it might be useful, but I wouldn't mind if that was not part of the data structure but rather a utility function for indexing things you can only iterate
12:01:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, considering that some other parts of the code are rather spaghetti like, I didn't expect cleanly separated model and view layers in another part...
12:02:17 <Vorpal> wha?! ^ is broken in kate suddenly
12:02:23 <Vorpal> or rather, the dead key, does nothing
12:02:43 <Vorpal> okay even stranger, after switching focus back and forth *two* times it works
12:02:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I like it for C/C++, I use emacs for some other languages, nano for config files. And so on.
12:03:12 <Vorpal> and kate is way better than gedit
12:06:44 <olsner> gedit? that comparison is almost meaningless
12:08:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, do you know if the length of the links affects the time a trace takes?
12:08:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or if one could simply link them up to closest one to get a less messy view of the world?
12:08:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Traces are crazily long, and it's not much hassle to set up.
12:09:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the cheat menu has a "cancel current trace" too XD
12:09:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, actually traces can vary a lot. Seen everything between 400 seconds and 65 seconds
12:10:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the latter was global crime db iirc
12:10:30 <Vorpal> I didn't manage to get in. Did manage to clean up my tracks in case of passive tracing iirc
12:10:31 <Phantom_Hoover> The central computer on a mainframe gives you a minute if you're lucky, even with the aforementioned gamebreaking setup.
12:10:52 <Phantom_Hoover> And it starts as soon as the password crack initiates.
12:11:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what about monitor bypass?
12:11:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I haven't got to LAN hacking yet. Hasn't been playing it long enough. How does it work?
12:12:26 <Phantom_Hoover> You connect to a LAN, and then you have a network of systems which need to be hacked through to do something nefarious on the mainframe.
12:12:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah, I have done freelance stuff so far
12:13:19 <oklopol> so what's the gameplay like in that game? i've understood it's mostly about watching bars go up
12:13:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, now to add the colouring of current target node
12:13:34 <Vorpal> oklopol, no, that would be progressquest I think
12:13:54 <Vorpal> oklopol, Do you know the way Holly Wood tends to portray hacking?
12:14:00 <Vorpal> oklopol, well, it is a game based on that
12:14:32 <Vorpal> oh maybe it is, *shrug*
12:14:35 <Vorpal> anyway you got the idea now
12:15:14 <Vorpal> object->Draw ( scrollX * GetLargeMapWidth(),
12:15:14 <Vorpal> scrollY * GetLargeMapHeight(),
12:15:22 <Vorpal> now to find what the heck object is
12:15:24 <oklopol> i'm not interested in the atmosphere or plot, i'm interested in what makes the gameplay interesting
12:15:43 <Vorpal> oklopol, well, Phantom_Hoover can explain. He isn't programming. I am
12:17:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Progress bars is probably a fairly good description, TbH.
12:17:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, less so than progress quest though
12:18:16 <oklopol> and once the bar gets full, do you have to quickly learn something about the computer, and then quickly write commands?
12:19:58 <oklopol> well that's not important, i'm just wondering if you have to be quick after waiting
12:20:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I haven't used it so far. What is it good for? I tried it, and it was utterly limited. not even del or rm
12:20:28 <Vorpal> oklopol, and yes sometimes you have. Not always though.
12:20:37 <Phantom_Hoover> It does have rm, it's just limited to a small number of targets.
12:20:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no such command it said, it had dir istead
12:21:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also dir foo didn't work. You needed cd foo\ndir\ncd ..
12:21:36 <oklopol> you can't program viruses or anything like that?
12:22:12 <oklopol> i'm sure you do but that's kind irrelevant
12:22:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you know the outline for nodes you have access to an account on?
12:23:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, as far as I can tell, it is never drawn. I read through the entire code to draw the world map, and it doesn't seem to be there
12:23:27 <Vorpal> of course it is there, I just can't find it
12:23:35 <Vorpal> // Draw red circles over computers infected with Revelation
12:23:46 <Vorpal> this is, by the way, in the main draw function
12:23:51 <Vorpal> not in the draw objects functions
12:23:57 <Vorpal> nor in the object->draw ones
12:24:08 <Vorpal> if you are doing OO, at least do it right
12:24:43 <Vorpal> oh wait, there it is. But where the fuck is that called?
12:25:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the outline drawing function is added as a callback with a function pointer when constructing another object I think. I'm not exactly sure where *those* objects are invoked, nor what type they are... but yeah
12:26:25 <Vorpal> ./interface/remoteinterface/nuclearwarscreen_interface.h:static void DrawLocation ( Button *button, bool highlighted, bool clicked ); <-- huh, I wonder what that file is
12:26:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, war games?
12:27:50 <Vorpal> EclRegisterButtonCallbacks ( name, DrawLocation, LocationClick, button_click, button_highlight ); <-- so in DrawLocation there, it draws the outline
12:28:01 <Vorpal> the actual object is drawn elsewhere
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12:29:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, by the way, adding another screen resolution option was trivial. I'm not sure why it works. From what I can tell the code must be inspecting the button "name" that it is assigned on construction to extract the resolution out of it.
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12:30:08 <Vorpal> either that or the button text
12:32:16 <Vorpal> int score_peoplefucked;
12:32:17 <Vorpal> int score_systemsfucked;
12:32:17 <Vorpal> int score_highsecurityhacks;
12:32:56 <Vorpal> I presume the first is related to the "discredit foo" kind of missions
12:33:55 <Vorpal> now I got diverted to grep the source for such words
12:35:14 <Vorpal> void CheatInterface::LotsOfMoneyClick ( Button *button )
12:35:15 <Vorpal> game->GetWorld ()->GetPlayer ()->ChangeBalance ( 10000, "You cheating motherfucker!" );
12:36:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and in the cheat to give all hardware we have: SetModemType ( "Fast fucker", gatewayDef->bandwidth );
12:37:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you can click it several times
12:38:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, did I mention the inline asm to you? Thanfully most of it will fall back on C versions for linux, but I had to write some x86-64 asm (especially for the code that generates a back trace!)
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12:39:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway, there are no instances of damn, dammit or shit. A lot of "fuck", "fucking", "fucks" and so on though.
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12:43:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I have no idea yet what this is for:bool timetochangeunderware = false;
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12:45:15 <Vorpal> olsner, oh it seems to be set if the system is supposed to change passwords. After a hack was discovered
12:46:16 <olsner> ah, so it's a bit of a pun then, rather than just a nonsensically named variable
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12:47:31 <Vorpal> hm maybe I should change the code so it only generates valid ips
12:47:55 <Vorpal> 923.258.1.534 breaks suspension of disbelief for me
12:52:30 <Vorpal> olsner, at least uplink does none of that silly poinless get/set-method stuff that "proper" C++ is so (in)famous for.
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12:54:44 <olsner> Vorpal: hmm? I don't think get/set methods are a C++ thing - rather some kind of "proper OOP/encapsulation" thing
12:55:30 <Vorpal> it doesn't do that anyway
12:55:47 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I have no idea yet what this is for: bool timetochangeunderware = false;
12:55:55 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I found out a few lines below
12:56:01 <olsner> yep, still as silly, regardless of where it comes from
12:56:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Presumably that something frightening is or has happened.
12:56:46 <Vorpal> at least C# (no idea about java) has these "property" thingies, that makes the syntax the same as if you were to access a field. Still silly but less annoying when coding.
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12:58:50 <Vorpal> KingOfKarlsruhe, so same as C++ then?
12:59:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, adding the colouring of target system seems... tricky
13:00:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the IP as such is not stored in the Mission object. Rather there are 5 strings completionA to completionE, that are used differently for different types of missions
13:00:18 <Vorpal> ip is *often* but not always in completionA
13:03:53 <Vorpal> oh I found a way to do it
13:04:49 <Vorpal> sscanf ( button->name, "worldmap %s %d", ip, &index );
13:06:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, so, erm, how long until you're satisfied enough that you would send a copy my way?
13:06:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, depends on how long to add the colouring. Also how to send it? Do you have anywhere I can scp it?
13:07:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway why do you want this binary, rather than the last version?
13:07:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Not really. Surely a file on 50MB order would be sendable through email?
13:07:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but what if they trace me!?
13:07:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I need to bounce it to send it to you
13:08:52 <Vorpal> adding colouring is tricky
13:08:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm assuming you know the InterNIC trick for paths, right?
13:09:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you mean adding the shitload from it and then making a long path?
13:09:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also another thing, to avoid passive scans, shouldn't routing through the uplink test system be a good way, then after go there and easily remove the logs with no fear of legal actions
13:10:00 <Vorpal> or am I missing something
13:10:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it doesn't? Huh. So you mean hack the admin password of it?
13:11:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so like the test system but even better?
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13:22:05 <iconmaster_> I noticed the new frontpage today, and I am dissapointed that there is no Matrix of Solidity quote to be found.
13:23:38 <Vorpal> iconmaster_, check title text of the image
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13:34:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, some, fixing build errors atm after my change
13:34:06 <Vorpal> mostly due to C++ stupidity
13:34:15 <Vorpal> char* vs. const char* and so on
13:34:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, I remembered that bank hack missions frequently ask you to probe an account with very large amounts of cash.
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13:38:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, any good at C++?
13:39:10 <Vorpal> I wonder if base class with virtual destructor and child class with non-virtual destructor will do the right thing.
13:39:28 <Vorpal> my change might otherwise leak memory.
13:41:51 <Vorpal> correction: the holy crap
13:42:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, the other source of mega-accounts is money transfer missions, since you can just nick the money from your client once you're done.
13:42:54 <Vorpal> okay somewhat less holy crap
13:48:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, my change made labels on the worldmap experience uncertainty about their position. Yet I didn't modify anything related to that
13:51:40 <Vorpal> I forgot == was stupid on C strings
13:51:53 <Vorpal> that doesn't answer the nervous label though
13:56:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway, since you own uplink, why not use that copy?
13:56:24 <olsner> Vorpal: lol, how do you forget that? :)
13:56:54 <Vorpal> olsner, I probably didn't read the answer if he did answer it
13:56:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, a) it was Mac, b) I'm not sure how I can transfer the authorisation process; I bought it *years* ago.
13:57:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the authorisation is just referring to a key card
13:57:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, like physical card
13:57:40 <Vorpal> it tells you a column and a row, and you have to enter the code there
13:57:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes, I have the full version here.
13:57:52 <Vorpal> and that uses the key card
13:58:00 <olsner> Vorpal: meant the == on C strings, not sure what question you answered
13:59:27 <Vorpal> olsner, and I forgot because most recent C programming I have done were stuff where comparing strings would have been bad. If you don't know how long the strings are, knowing how long strcmp takes becomes messy. And I have been doing hard realtime recently.
13:59:39 <Vorpal> olsner, and apart from that, not much C
14:00:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, how, exactly, am I meant to get the full version?
14:00:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I got it through Ambrosia by downloading, and that was several years back.
14:00:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm. torrent?
14:01:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but one thing I can give you that the binary can't is a custom screen resolution.
14:01:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, any specific you want?
14:02:05 <Vorpal> personally I use a large windowed one. 1400x900
14:02:18 <Phantom_Hoover> One which works natively, and is at a later version than any I'd torrent.
14:02:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so give me your gpg key, so I can encrypt it
14:02:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, sorry, mine is old
14:02:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, becuase the development cd is old
14:02:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, there are newer from torrenting
14:10:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the one I found for the developer cd on tpb works. (I got the game, but not the dev cd legally)
14:11:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, SE is seeders, LE is leachers
14:11:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, plus I torrented one to get older data files needed for the version on the dev cd. So the one called "ultimate" or whatever on that certain bay works. Still seeding it.
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14:12:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it is included in there as a zip on the cue+bin image
14:13:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, bchunk is a tool to convert cue+bin to iso
14:13:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, available in ubuntu and arch repos at least
14:14:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh and for that one you need to get the 1.54 update from introversion.
14:15:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, then you need some ia32-libs on ubuntu. To extract the update you need to run it as ./update.sh --help to find option to extract to a specific dir, then copy (but do not overwrite) the data file from the iso into the lib dir in the extracted area.
14:15:25 <Vorpal> go to bin/x86 and make a symlink to ../../lib there
14:20:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not peered to me
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14:38:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, haven't hit that one
14:38:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, did you get the 1.54 upgrade and use that binary?
14:48:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the patch is what you should and use. Just copy the data files missing in the patch from the uplink.zip on the cd
14:49:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no cheating for you in that version though ;)
14:50:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway my build is buggy with a lot of jumps. Sometimes the link from the gateway to the first jumps get lost!
14:50:11 <Vorpal> I don't know but it breaks save/load
14:50:21 <Vorpal> and sometimes the labels go nervous, though not often
15:01:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I have already twice ruined a new account by messing up while purchasing things.
15:06:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you could use the tutorial if you don't remember
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15:55:58 <elliott> 05:03:40: <pikhq> Right, the UK keyboard has tiny-enter syndrome.
15:56:26 <elliott> http://www.clickykeyboard.com/_ebay/ibm_55323685l-001/ibm_553236475l-001.jpg Pictured: Gigantic enter.
15:57:37 <elliott> 05:08:24: <oerjan> just one problem, ^ is in there :D
15:59:47 <elliott> 08:15:31: <oerjan> mind blown http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/grpv6/til_why_zippers_have_ykk_on_them_the_ykk_stands/
15:59:54 <elliott> finally I know who to blame for making zippers get stuck so much
16:00:26 <elliott> 10:28:21: <Phantom_Hoover> Oh my god all of the IT Crowd's latest season is on YouTube.
16:00:27 <elliott> 10:35:04: <Phantom_Hoover> Some of the earlier ones are there as well.
16:00:30 <olsner> "But who makes the machine that makes the machine to make zippers?" :)
16:00:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: [Four] on Demand has everything.
16:02:53 <elliott> 11:41:33: <Vorpal> T GetData ( int index ); // slow unless sequential
16:02:53 <elliott> 11:42:00: <Vorpal> a linked list, but keeps a pointer to last accessed index. I think.
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16:03:36 <olsner> YKK apparently also do "fenestration systems"
16:03:39 <elliott> too long a story to explain
16:03:48 <elliott> olsner: so they... unthrow people out of windows?
16:03:55 <Vorpal> elliott, I seen the word "byuu" elsewhere before
16:04:17 <olsner> elliott: maybe they also do defenestration systems
16:04:33 <elliott> Vorpal: also of that public_cast thing i linked you :)
16:04:37 <elliott> can someone say [caret]ul plz
16:04:43 <Vorpal> elliott, why would he be involved in uplink?
16:04:51 <elliott> Vorpal: remember when is aid long story?
16:05:16 <Vorpal> elliott, yes I'm waiting for the long story. I have time.
16:05:35 <elliott> Vorpal: i don't have the patience. unless you keep bugging me, in which case the utility of telling you might go up far enough.
16:05:38 <elliott> i shouldn't have told you that.
16:06:41 <elliott> Vorpal: in bsnes byuu has a foreach (thing, source) macro
16:06:49 <elliott> where source is something indexable with source[index]
16:06:57 <olsner> ooh, this episode has a "viewer discretion is adviced", none of the others have had that
16:07:01 <elliott> he says that linked lists should just support fast sequential indexing, rather than the mess of C++ iterators
16:07:10 <elliott> this is based on one forum post
16:07:14 <elliott> that was the most obscure, boring reference ever
16:07:29 <elliott> olsner: well it _does_ take quite a lot for goat porn to reach the viewer discretion level
16:07:37 <elliott> someone fucking type [caret]ul
16:07:51 <olsner> you have a caret, just copy-paste it damnit
16:08:39 <olsner> elliott: yeah, it might mean that there are humans in this piece of goat porn!
16:08:41 <fungot> `1234567890-=~!@#$%^&*()_+
16:09:26 <Vorpal> why goats. Why not some other non-human mammal?
16:09:45 <Gregor> What a silly question.
16:10:05 <Vorpal> I'm seriously wondering why goat porn ended up as a kind of meme
16:10:36 <Gregor> Goat porn is sheep porn for real men.
16:10:49 <Vorpal> Gregor, bah, real men use hippos.
16:11:53 <elliott> 12:20:09: <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I haven't used it so far. What is it good for? I tried it, and it was utterly limited. not even del or rm
16:12:08 <elliott> also, destroying an entire system easily if you want to :)
16:13:47 <olsner> oh, apparently strong bad is known for enjoying goat porn
16:13:53 <olsner> maybe that's where it comes from
16:13:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Useless, since if you're deleting logs anywhere but InterNIC, you're doing it wrong, but neat.
16:13:55 <elliott> so the log remover is a waste of money unless you're trying to be selective :D
16:14:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I used to remove the entire log directories as standard procedure.
16:15:09 <elliott> Vorpal: Cool thing about Uplink: If you get caught, then you can actually find yourself in your next game.
16:15:13 <elliott> In records or something, IIRC.
16:15:28 <elliott> Vorpal: In fact, I believe you can get lots of money by getting caught repeatedly somehow.
16:15:35 <elliott> Although IIRC that was fixed and the game punishes you for it. Don't recall.
16:16:13 <elliott> 12:56:46: <Vorpal> at least C# (no idea about java) has these "property" thingies, that makes the syntax the same as if you were to access a field. Still silly but less annoying when coding.
16:16:20 <elliott> Vorpal: not silly, it's useful for "virtual" properties
16:16:31 <elliott> e.g. say you update some field manually
16:16:36 <elliott> but then change it to be calculated on-the-fly
16:19:55 <elliott> 14:02:18: <Phantom_Hoover> One which works natively, and is at a later version than any I'd torrent.
16:19:58 <elliott> Uplink 1 54 Linux i386 deb Fully Patched Working » games other
16:20:17 <elliott> Most of them are the Hacker Elite version. Gross.
16:26:05 <elliott> "I don't know how it happened either! It's like one day I was a baby and the next day I woke up and realized I was 16 and had never seen Star Wars. And that I was actually 21."
16:39:26 <elliott> [[[Expired for gnome-control-center (Ubuntu) because there has been no activity for 60 days.]]]
16:39:28 <elliott> BUGS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY.
16:42:31 <elliott> What, the Star Wars quote?
16:42:38 <elliott> Oh. No, that's an automated program.
16:42:52 <elliott> Apparently, if you don't hear anything about a bug for sixty days, it's irrelevant.
16:43:12 <elliott> My new development methodology: Whenever you see a bug, don't do anything about it for sixty days.
16:43:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I HAVE A BETTER IDEA
16:43:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hack bank. Steal SO MUCH MONEY. Use money to buy tools to avoid getting caught.
16:44:03 <elliott> This requires SUPERHUMAN REFLEXES
16:44:18 <elliott> "If cats actually existed rather than being simple figments of your imagination this plan would make perfect sense. Unfortunately for you, being a cat lover is actually considered pedophilia in many parts of the world, as such you should be arrested for your heinous threat."
16:44:48 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: erasing logs <elliott> you can do it instantly <-- nice, how?
16:44:55 <elliott> Vorpal: I forget. Erase /var or something.
16:45:06 <elliott> Maybe I'm wrong, I was never a good Uplink player.
16:45:23 <elliott> Vorpal: So there are physical disc copies of one point five four?
16:45:30 <elliott> i.e. I can search for an untarnished ISO?
16:45:45 <elliott> What's the copyright protection like, I've forgotten entirely.
16:46:07 <elliott> Ah, the Ultimate Collection looks okay.
16:46:15 <Vorpal> elliott, uh not sure, the one I have is uplink 1.52
16:46:28 <Vorpal> elliott, and it is a LUT
16:46:42 <elliott> I see it in the description.
16:46:47 <Vorpal> elliott, usually called that in hardwary contexts iirc
16:46:51 <elliott> I'll wait for this download to finish first.
16:47:05 <elliott> Vorpal: Pah, Monkey Island One's copyright protection was teh bestest
16:47:06 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm seeding that one, I got older data files for that one
16:47:16 <elliott> You used a little spinning wheel thing to form a pirate face out of multiple elementsX
16:47:37 <elliott> Vorpal: It has the one point five four patch, says the torrent description.
16:47:46 <elliott> So I should be fine with just this torrent, to get one point five four?
16:47:55 <Vorpal> elliott, the linux one on the cue/bin didn't
16:47:56 <elliott> <elliott> You used a little spinning wheel thing to form a pirate face out of multiple elementsX
16:48:01 <elliott> You used a PHYSICAL wheel thing to do it
16:48:23 <Vorpal> elliott, I heard infocom had rather fancy ones too?
16:48:32 <elliott> Vorpal: Copy protection? Dunno, but they had feelies.
16:48:39 <elliott> Man, remember when buying physical copies of a game would actually give you something more fun than just some digital media?
16:48:57 <elliott> But maybe the game industry will realise that soon, if they don't move entirely to digital distribution.
16:49:05 <Vorpal> elliott, I remember when buying a physical copy of a non-game software would give you a thick 200-page manual
16:49:33 <elliott> Well, it sure made the packaging heavier.
16:49:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't remember the IBM ringbinders (ah those must have been the days!)
16:50:37 <Vorpal> olsner, yes. I think I have some early MS Office for mac (classic) with a 100 page manual, and I remember clarrisworks used to come on multiple floppies + a thick manual (didn't buy the last one myself)
16:50:45 <Vorpal> also not sure about spelling
16:50:53 <elliott> Who invented offline manuals.
16:51:03 <olsner> wow, you must be old Vorpal
16:51:19 <elliott> olsner: he's younger than you bro
16:51:42 <elliott> unfortunately i cannot make any other guesses
16:51:44 <elliott> as i would be unable to type them
16:51:55 <Vorpal> yes I'm very intelligent for a 9 year old, since I'm studying second year at university
16:52:08 <elliott> Vorpal: yes. and you know what they say about 9 year olds in their second year of university?
16:52:25 <Vorpal> nah, "wow, that's the next einstein"
16:52:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Einstein wasn't an irritating little brat :D
16:53:05 <Vorpal> elliott, actually, according to what Sagan said in one Cosmos episode he was considered unruly by his teachers.
16:53:24 <Vorpal> speaking of which, I have one episode left to watch
16:53:40 <elliott> PROBABLY TOO BUSY SMOKING POT TO PAY ATTENTION
16:54:16 <Vorpal> // ClientCommsInterface.h: interface for the ClientCommsInterface class.
16:54:17 <elliott> http://www.illuminati-news.com/famous-freemasons.htm ;; ALSO APPARENTLY A FREEMASON
16:54:18 <Vorpal> // ClientCommsInterface.cpp: implementation of the ClientCommsInterface class.
16:54:23 <Vorpal> okay... but what is it?
16:54:29 <elliott> C++ should just abandon source files
16:54:33 <elliott> since with templates, everything has to be in headers
16:54:36 <elliott> and everyone loves templates
16:54:40 <elliott> there should just be .h files
16:54:46 <Vorpal> elliott, ah but there is a way around it
16:54:53 <Vorpal> elliott, #include "implementation.cpp"
16:54:57 <Vorpal> in the bottom of the header
16:55:07 <elliott> moar liek worst of two worlds
16:55:09 <Vorpal> note: uplink actually does this
16:55:17 <elliott> i love how in C++ you have to include the private parts of a class in the header
16:55:22 <elliott> because they break your ABI
16:55:32 <elliott> C++: worse at encapsulation than C
16:55:53 <Vorpal> elliott, at least uplink doesn't do any stupid getter/setter stuff. Unless there is some need to do complex allocation or such there is no setter method.
16:56:01 <Vorpal> and I have yet to see any getter
16:56:07 <elliott> Getters/setters are alright, as long as they're optional.
16:56:10 <elliott> e.g. see Python's way of doing it.
16:56:22 <elliott> Everything is public, but you can make a property out of a get and set function.
16:56:30 <elliott> So you don't need to plan ahead for this kind of stuff.
16:56:42 <Vorpal> elliott, how can you make a property like that?
16:56:44 <elliott> You just use public slots, and if you need to change one of them to do more than just plain getting and setting, you can convert it.
16:57:02 <elliott> def set_x(self, value): ...
16:57:12 <elliott> x = property(get_x, set_x, del_x, 'lol this is x')
16:57:18 <elliott> Vorpal: You can do it less uglily and simplery.
16:57:20 <elliott> But that's the basic idea.
16:57:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I love how you use a function call for it
16:58:04 <elliott> Pretty sure you can omit that :P
16:58:07 <Vorpal> what does that do now again
16:58:09 <elliott> Vorpal: btw, you can do properties in C++.
16:58:18 <Vorpal> elliott, with macros you can in C++ at least yes
16:58:27 <Vorpal> elliott, templates then :P
16:58:43 <elliott> They make the implementation more generic but you don't need them.
16:58:45 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway you could do it with operator override on the type of the field
16:58:49 <elliott> Vorpal: http://sprunge.us/OGEU
16:58:52 <elliott> Yeah, that's basically what I did.
16:59:02 <Vorpal> <elliott> Yeah, that's basically what I did. <-- why did you code C++?
16:59:13 <Vorpal> #define self (*this) <-- scary
16:59:18 <elliott> Vorpal: I hate pointers :D
16:59:23 <elliott> Vorpal: You know how people play Sudoku as a time-wasting brain exercise?
16:59:25 <elliott> C++ is like that, but better.
17:00:20 <olsner> 'this' should've been a reference, but I guess c++ didn't have them when they introduced it
17:01:05 <elliott> Here's some more of my C++ perversions:
17:01:20 <elliott> Ignore that static_true/static_false stuff, it was another random experiment.
17:02:09 <elliott> is really fucking hard to write
17:02:17 <elliott> because then you can't do maybe<foo[and]>
17:02:25 <elliott> because you can't have a pointer to a reference
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17:04:15 <elliott> it really sucks when it takes a while for my ISP throttling to kick in
17:04:26 <elliott> and I download like eight MiB/s
17:04:37 <elliott> then it goes down to six-hundred KiB/s :(
17:05:25 <pizearke> I'm usually always around 600 kbps
17:05:54 <elliott> that's usually me too... but last night and today, the throttling has been working badly or something
17:06:15 <elliott> so it starts at like eight mebibytes a second, then goes down to three mebibytes a second, one mebibyte, slight pause, six hundred kibibytes
17:08:52 <elliott> If I was feeling really pedantic I'd be saying "octet" instead of "byte" too.
17:09:03 <Vorpal> elliott, what is "maybe" there=
17:09:12 <elliott> Vorpal: Haskell's (Maybe a).
17:09:32 <Vorpal> <elliott> and I download like eight MiB/s <-- you downloaded bandwidth?
17:09:59 <elliott> Vorpal: Then I downloaded some RAM: http://www.downloadmoreram.com/
17:10:11 <Vorpal> elliott, also you meant Mio surely?
17:10:20 * elliott downloads another four gigs for good measure
17:10:25 <elliott> I suppose I should say... gibs.
17:10:43 <Vorpal> elliott, or use the uplink unit of gigaquads
17:10:50 <elliott> That's also the Star Trek unit :D
17:11:10 <elliott> I can only assume that a quad is like a hundred zettabytes.
17:11:23 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: Then I downloaded some RAM: http://www.downloadmoreram.com/ <-- joke? fraud?
17:11:37 <elliott> "Since I downloaded more RAM, I immediately returned the RAM I bought just the other day from my local electronics store, John's Electronics. The customer service there was great and they did not give me a hard time at all! If I ever have to buy another piece of electronics equipment I am definitely going to John's Electronics. That's John's Electronics, for all your electronic needs.
17:11:45 <elliott> ("I told the IT guy in work about this and he was so happy he laughed out loud!
17:11:57 <pizearke> I'm going to try downloading some ram.
17:12:08 <elliott> pizearke: be careful, it's illegal
17:12:14 <elliott> you could get arrested for ram piracy
17:12:21 <pizearke> Don't worry. I've got, like, 9 proxies
17:14:37 <Vorpal> elliott, for virtual destructors in C++, does this work: base class with virtual destructor, child class with non-virtual destructor
17:14:48 <Vorpal> elliott, uplink has that but since the base had an empty destructor...
17:15:07 <Vorpal> huh, he knows C++ well? That surprises me
17:15:13 <olsner> it will work but it will occasionally do the completely wrong thing
17:15:17 <elliott> does Mono support NET four point oh?
17:15:22 <Vorpal> olsner, oh? what is the wrong thing?
17:15:38 <olsner> or wait, I might not have read the question properly
17:15:51 <olsner> I think the subclass will just automatically get a virtual destructor
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17:17:38 <Sgeo_> How did I accidentally close out of here?
17:18:20 <olsner> Sgeo_: alt-z to disable accidental closing
17:18:39 <Sgeo_> I'm now very curious what that does
17:18:40 <elliott> I suppose I should write a Funciton interpreter that runs on something other than Microsoft desktop operating systems with a new version of Visual Studio, but the parsing will be gross.
17:19:23 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloggernacle
17:20:42 <Vorpal> elliott, in uplink, is there any need for Proxy_disable if you have Proxy_bypass?
17:20:51 <elliott> Dunno, ask Phantom_Hoover.
17:21:09 <elliott> "Armenia makes chess compulsory in schools"
17:21:28 <Sgeo_> "The thing is, alt-z closes the window with a part message."
17:21:43 <Sgeo_> In what client? I doubt all clients are exactly the same
17:22:12 <Sgeo_> Also, alt-z seems to do nothing in Silverex
17:22:21 <Sgeo_> Just pressed it a few times
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17:36:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm. Well the dev build is buggy as hell. Some might be bitrot. It just segfaulted on me using the console to delete logs
17:38:34 <elliott> Vorpal: Well, several people have produced pretty popular patches with it...
17:38:50 <elliott> I bet the forum has some kind of Combined Modern Systems and Bugfixes Patch that you're slowly recreating an inferior version of :P
17:40:04 <elliott> Either that or it's totally dead.
17:45:40 <fungot> `1234567890-=~!@#$%^&*()_+
17:50:52 <elliott> Erm. Hardlinks are copy-on-write, yeah?
17:51:12 <elliott> I thought if you modified a hardlinked file, the link broke.
17:51:20 <Vorpal> elliott, they are if you have an editor that does save as new, delete old, rename
17:51:24 <Vorpal> which a lot of editors do
17:51:27 <elliott> Oh, right, _that_ bullshit.
17:51:34 <Vorpal> some like emacs leave the old ones as foo~
17:51:49 <Vorpal> elliott, what is too risky?
17:52:01 <elliott> (I don't want to duplicate this fifteen gigs, but I don't want to risk accidentally trashing the originals either.)
17:52:04 <Vorpal> elliott, they have their uses.
17:52:13 <Vorpal> elliott, you could probably use symlinks
17:52:28 <Vorpal> elliott, use lvm2! It can do it!
17:52:38 <elliott> Vorpal: I anticipate deleting the originals.
17:52:41 <elliott> That would be unwise with symlinks.
17:53:00 <Vorpal> elliott, lvm can do COW for logical volumes
17:53:04 <elliott> Unix inflexibility strikes again...
17:53:09 <elliott> Vorpal: What, create a new logical volume just for this? :P
17:53:27 <Vorpal> elliott, create a snapshot that can be edited. It will only store changed blocks.
17:54:04 <Vorpal> elliott, another way would possibly be versioning the stuff. Easy to go back then.
17:58:42 <elliott> Vorpal: You're still seeing that torrent?
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18:00:32 <Vorpal> elliott, *looks around* which one?
18:00:40 -!- cheater00 has joined.
18:00:45 <Vorpal> elliott, perhaps you meant "seeding"?
18:00:57 <Vorpal> elliott, and yes I'm seeding 8 different ones.
18:01:13 <elliott> The one that is Uplink. :p
18:01:39 <elliott> HEY VORPAL REMEMBER IN TWO-THOUSAND AND EIGHT WHEN YOU WOULD REFUSE TO BREAK COPYRIGHT LAW IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM ;D
18:01:55 <Vorpal> elliott, I became less ais yes
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18:02:14 <elliott> I approve of this new use of "ais" as an adjective.
18:02:44 <elliott> I bet in two-thousand and seventy-two, the OED will include "ais, adj. Excessive abiding to the strict letter of every law possible" or something.
18:02:59 <elliott> Etymologists will look into it and be unable to believe that it descended from this random guy's initials.
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18:18:27 <elliott> Vorpal: So how hard is it to get Uplink installed? :p
18:18:33 <elliott> Just a symlink and thirty-two bit libs?
18:27:13 <Vorpal> elliott, old enough 32 bit libs yes. Ubuntu Lucid LTS have the required versions of some compat libs, arch linux does not.
18:27:36 <elliott> Stop putting the LTS after the version name btw, it's obnoxious :P
18:28:00 <elliott> Ubuntu LTS is like, even further behind than Debian stable X-D
18:28:01 <Vorpal> elliott, Ubuntu Lucid 10.4 LTS even I think
18:28:24 <Vorpal> elliott, come on, it wasn't when I installed it
18:28:59 <Vorpal> elliott, or is it 10.04?
18:29:50 <Vorpal> elliott, you could easily have copied pasted that! select and middle click
18:30:08 <elliott> maybe i will if you buy me a new laptopX
18:30:53 <Vorpal> elliott, you could just call apple tomorrow or so
18:31:15 <elliott> Yesyes, but then I'd totally be without a laptop. If you buy me a new laptop, I can have TWO laptopsXXXX
18:31:25 <elliott> And this could become a server so I don't have to move all these gigantic filesXXXXXX
18:31:32 <elliott> Actually i would have THREEEE LAPTOPS
18:31:36 <elliott> Four if you count that piece of shit.
18:31:42 <elliott> Five if you count the bricked UbiSurfer.
18:32:28 <elliott> http://torrentz.eu/53d72d29db59b52230972be1eecced83d5b23da5
18:32:34 <elliott> Well-seeded with patches and key.
18:32:35 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, what about your other laptop
18:32:42 <Vorpal> elliott, iirc same model as ais has
18:33:02 <elliott> Vorpal: It also has a broken keyboardX I have an external keyboard plugged into it.
18:33:03 <Vorpal> <elliott> Yesyes, but then I'd totally be without a laptop. If you buy me a new laptop, I can have TWO laptopsXXXX
18:33:12 <elliott> <elliott> Actually i would have THREEEE LAPTOPS
18:33:14 <elliott> <elliott> Four if you count that piece of shit.
18:33:14 <elliott> <elliott> Five if you count the bricked UbiSurfer.
18:33:20 <Vorpal> elliott, too late! You already lied
18:33:37 <elliott> P.S. Presence in the [octothorpe]matrixofsolidity is far too low.
18:33:40 <elliott> Enter immediately, everyone.
18:39:29 <Vorpal> elliott, next thing: change IPs in uplink to be valid ones. 985.255.658.548 and so on *really* break suspension in disbelief. Not only is one section broadcast there, but the other values are out of range!
18:39:54 <elliott> Same reason US TV uses five-five-five numbers.
18:40:05 <elliott> Vorpal: IIRC there's some "private use" area of IP.
18:40:06 <Vorpal> elliott, there are lower ones too
18:40:22 <elliott> fizzie or Ilari will know.
18:40:38 <elliott> Maybe "nothing at all" rather than "private use", even.
18:40:51 <Vorpal> elliott, there is a severe lack of THAT nowdays on ipv4
18:41:10 <elliott> I think there _is_ one non-[ten]. and non-[one-two-seven]. range.
18:41:16 <Vorpal> elliott, several reserved ones have been re-used
18:41:32 <elliott> "For private use" or similar.
18:41:38 <elliott> There's another one, I swear.
18:41:41 <elliott> One-seven-two _might_ be it.
18:41:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I think 172 is private.
18:42:01 <Vorpal> well private B class or something
18:42:06 <elliott> Vorpal: That would be a good choice, then.
18:42:14 <elliott> Unless you want TOTAL REALISM
18:42:15 <Vorpal> elliott, 192 is private C class iirc
18:42:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I actually planned to go for total realism here
18:42:37 <Vorpal> elliott, making sure to avoid broadcasts and reserved ranges and so on
18:42:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I haven't done LAN hacking yet, but I presume they use the same sort of IPs, or private-use ones
18:43:04 <elliott> Sure, but if you post your patch, don't say I didn't warn you if people go "omg I looked up the IP for InterNIC and it's actually AMAZONXXXX"
18:43:16 <fizzie> 169.254.0.0/16 is reserved for link-local autoconfigurationary things; and 172.16.0.0/12 is that formerly-considered-B-class private range.
18:43:23 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't have access to the dev forum. I doubt I'll post any of these patches
18:43:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, it wouldn't be a Hollywood simulator if it didn't use invalid IPs.
18:43:52 <Vorpal> elliott, oh? Hm maybe they do that
18:44:01 <elliott> Vorpal: You should fix that unrealistic letter-by-letter password cracker while you're at it :D
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18:44:22 <elliott> Vorpal: http://i.imgur.com/prFIq.jpg CSIPv[Four]
18:44:31 <elliott> Uplink's more realistic than that :D
18:44:35 <fizzie> There's also 192.0.2.0/24, 198.51.100.0/24 and 203.0.113.0/24 (TEST-NET-1/2/3) that are reserved for documentation and source code examples like that; they look pretty "realistic" (since they look like just any regular addresses) though of course it won't look realistic if all addresses are just from three different /24s.
18:45:21 <Vorpal> elliott, "reversed internet protocol process"?
18:45:27 <Vorpal> elliott, okay what is that from...
18:45:40 <Vorpal> how fitting for my intention
18:45:45 <elliott> Vorpal: BTW, you should also use Visual Basic to write a GUI interface to track down the IP address.
18:45:52 <elliott> That would be a good thing to add to Uplink.
18:46:07 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkDD03yeLnU
18:48:10 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> elliott, I haven't done LAN hacking yet, but I presume they use the same sort of IPs, or private-use ones
18:48:31 <Phantom_Hoover> You connect to the system externally, then probe around in a graphical maze thing.
18:48:56 <elliott> Honestly, hacking should work exactly like it does in Uplink. It would be SO COOL
18:49:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, unless you actually like having any security in your life.
18:50:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Would you rather have security or AWESOME
18:50:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and what IPs do they have?
18:50:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Just icons of computers with lines representing connections.
18:50:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BTW, which side did you take in the plotline?
18:50:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh maybe appletalk or whatever thing those old novel systems used
18:51:02 <elliott> ARC is the destroy-the-interwebs one, right?
18:51:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, will they contact you or how does it work
18:51:13 <Vorpal> I haven't heard from either yet
18:51:19 <elliott> Vorpal: Both contact you, IIRC.
18:51:26 <Phantom_Hoover> With a virus which spreads like treacle and with Arunmor hounding you with Faith.
18:51:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: Since it's SCI-FI, you could use 240.0.0.0/4 addresses too.
18:51:36 <elliott> I'd be tempted to go with ARC if only for the perverse pleasure of wiping out the Internet.
18:51:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, what are those?
18:52:02 <elliott> Vorpal: MAKE IT GENERATE IPv[SIX] ADDRESSES INSTEAD
18:52:09 <elliott> The probability of generating one that actually exists is approximately zero.
18:52:11 <Phantom_Hoover> There are real-life viruses more effective than Revelation, it seems.
18:52:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but AWESOME
18:52:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: Class E, "reserved for future use".
18:52:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: wrt what oklopol said, Uplink totally needs a sequel that involves actually coding viruses.
18:52:43 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: http://lparchive.org/Uplink/ for a rather... different take on the ARC side.
18:53:09 <elliott> When you Finns go to school, I bet there's just one subject, and it's called "Facts".
18:53:14 <elliott> You just learn facts. Constantly.
18:53:25 <elliott> And it lasts for the first twenty years of your life, starting before birth (in-womb lessons).
18:53:36 <elliott> fizzie: Grr, it uses the Hacker Elite subtitle.
18:53:46 <elliott> INFERIOR MODIFIED THIRD-PARTY SELLER VERISON
18:54:34 <elliott> Vorpal: btw, it'd be cool if you could add an option to scale up the text by some multiple of two.
18:54:39 <elliott> Since it's quite small for today's screens.
18:55:19 <Vorpal> sec, I'm trying to fix a fucked up "sshfs, and forgot that it was mounted when I suspended the other computer"-situation
18:55:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WE SHOULD WRITE THAT UPLINK SEQUEL
18:55:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How did you get it working?
18:55:52 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, hmm, some kind of scripting thing based on Uplink programs?
18:56:03 <elliott> Right. I mean how did you get it installed?
18:56:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Re: Scripting thing:
18:56:15 <elliott> Well, you should be able to write programs like this.
18:56:20 <elliott> for computer in connections() {
18:56:34 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: btw, it'd be cool if you could add an option to scale up the text by some multiple of two. <-- yes but my build is buggy as fuck
18:56:47 <elliott> What I'm saying is, you don't get given Revelation, you have to write it yourself if you want it.
18:56:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Get the patch from Introversion; take .dats from torrent, put into patch's lib/, run uplink binary in patch's root directory.
18:57:01 <elliott> Want to crack passwords? Well, you could use the commercial tool... but it's slow as shit, you should write your own.
18:57:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Erm. Which torrent, mine just has .bin/.cue and the patches.
18:58:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, make the bin and cue into an iso with the thing Vorpal mentioned, then stick those files somewhere.
18:58:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Also those patches aren't the ones you need; you want the Linux one from Introversion's site.
18:58:37 <elliott> Haven't really read the logs.
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18:58:46 <elliott> Or just the one point five four one?
18:59:00 <elliott> Hmm, Uplink involves typing numbers occasionally, doesn't it.
18:59:15 <Vorpal> <elliott> Do I need both? <-- both what?
18:59:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: For the degree stuff?
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19:00:02 <elliott> Well, I can with copy-and-paste...
19:00:09 <elliott> Sigh. Archive Manager appends ;[one] to all the filenames in the Uplink ISO. Anyone know a non-retarded way to extract it?
19:00:16 <Vorpal> elliott, as I said to Phantom_Hoover before, get the patch and extract it. (./update.sh --help to see how to know where to place it) Then copy the missing data files from linux/uplink.zip on the bin/cue image to the lib. dir of it
19:00:26 <Vorpal> symlink lib into bin/x86
19:00:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that is what I told you iirc?
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19:00:47 <elliott> http://lparchive.org/Uplink/Update%201/12-012.png ;; lol at that last one.
19:00:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh? okay how?
19:02:07 <Sgeo_> O'Brien.... erm, Bashir Must Suffer!
19:02:33 <Vorpal> elliott, that letsplay... "On a remote, abandoned oil rig in the treacherous seas between Antarctica and Cape Horn, a green light winked on, on the secret server as the connection was made.", lucky, the positions are randomised.
19:02:42 <Vorpal> This placement made a very dramatic one
19:02:51 <elliott> As opposed to, like, Scotland.
19:03:08 <Vorpal> elliott, I have a LAN up way north of Alaska in my game
19:03:21 <Vorpal> elliott, Sample Company iirc
19:03:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Once you have the iso contents and the contents of the patch archive from http://www.introversion.co.uk/uplink/downloads/linuxpatch1.54.tar.gz , find linux/uplink.zip in the iso, extract, take all .dats from it, move to the lib directory in the patch files.
19:03:27 <elliott> It would be cool if the server ended up right on the South Pole.
19:03:36 <elliott> BEST PLACE TO PUT A SERVER EVER
19:03:47 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Once you have the iso contents and the contents of the patch archive from http://www.introversion.co.uk/uplink/downloads/linuxpatch1.54.tar.gz , find linux/uplink.zip in the iso, extract, take all .dats from it, move to the lib directory in the patch files. <-- that's what I said!!
19:03:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Run uplink in patch directory, after chmodding it so it's executable.
19:04:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the update was a self-extracting .sh for me. What!?
19:05:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, strange... http://www.introversion.co.uk/uplink/otherfiles.html "download" goes to the .sh, mirror goes to .tar.gz
19:05:21 <elliott> OMG this Let's Play is reminding me how fucking awesome Uplink is.
19:05:39 <elliott> Introversion: The coolest???
19:06:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes, sadly in the dev version save/load is broken :(
19:06:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I routed my connection through every internal services machine on InterNIC and added some government sites and banks onto the end.
19:06:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WOULD YOU CALL THE YOGSCASTERS AMATEURS
19:06:44 <elliott> "This version of Uplink links statically to the SDL library and to a patched version of the SDL_mixer library.
19:06:45 <elliott> SDL and SDL_mixer are used under the terms of the GNU LIBRARY GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE (see file COPYING), which requires that we provide a binary which is dynamically linked to these
19:06:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I routed my connection around every system I found. And I keep adding ones I find when hacking internal services, from the link list
19:06:51 <elliott> THAT IS NOT WHAT THE GPL MEANS BROTHERS
19:06:58 <elliott> You have to distribute your changes to SDL_mixer.
19:07:12 <Vorpal> elliott, the static one doesn't work btw. It tries to dlopen something
19:07:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think I once routed through every single system.
19:07:28 <Vorpal> elliott, did you save the route?
19:07:40 <elliott> If I did, it was on a long-ago-formatted Windows partition.
19:07:41 <olsner> "Seven of Nine collected over 30 thousand gigaquads of research about romantic relationships." - 30 TQ of goat porn, then?
19:07:47 <elliott> I seem to recall the result being rather slow.
19:07:55 <elliott> olsner: why are you reading things about voyager
19:08:20 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, on InterNIC, probably, but the ones that really add to your trace times are central mainframes, which can only be found through missions and by hacking internal services.
19:08:44 <Vorpal> <elliott> I seem to recall the result being rather slow. <-- unlikely... uplink doesn't simulate latency as far as I can tell
19:08:45 <olsner> elliott: apparently voyager is the series that has the most talk about various numbers of quads
19:09:08 <elliott> olsner: Wasn't the doctor only like a hundred gigaquads?
19:09:12 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, now I want to make a hacker simulator! With dwarf fortress level attention to detail and realism
19:09:18 <Vorpal> I doubt I'd pull it off though
19:09:32 <elliott> Strong AI with a human-like personality and fast amounts of information and expertise: Vastly smaller than all the available information on human relationships.
19:09:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Like I said, we need Uplink Two: Virus-Writing Boogaloo.
19:09:47 <olsner> elliott: 50 million gigaquads, apaprently
19:09:55 <elliott> Maybe we should just write an ~ATH interpreter.
19:10:03 <olsner> hmm, for the "Mark I", dunno which version the doctor was
19:10:26 <elliott> Vorpal: It's the BEST virus-writing languageX
19:10:38 <Vorpal> elliott, how does it work?
19:11:02 <elliott> Vorpal: It's all based around infinite loops.
19:11:29 <Vorpal> elliott, http://lparchive.org/Uplink/Update%201/31-031.png XD
19:11:49 <elliott> http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/~ATH
19:11:53 <elliott> http://images.wikia.com/mspaintadventures/images/d/de/Virus.gif
19:11:54 <elliott> http://images.wikia.com/mspaintadventures/images/8/81/Code.gif
19:14:18 <elliott> http://lparchive.org/Uplink/Update%201/27-026.png
19:15:09 <elliott> Vorpal: So where do I unpack the uplink/ directory in the patch .tar.gz?
19:15:15 <elliott> Presumably into the same directory as the existing uplink binary?
19:15:44 <elliott> Compiled on Nov 16 2006 at 20:46:23
19:15:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I told you above. And Phantom_Hoover told you for the non-.sh version
19:15:49 <elliott> It has fucked up my resolution though
19:15:56 <Vorpal> elliott, you forgot to ln -s the lib
19:16:09 <Vorpal> elliott, it does that sort of stuff when it fails to find the data
19:16:21 <Vorpal> elliott, .... yes. Maybe you didn't read
19:16:26 <olsner> "If these are accurate, USS Voyager's computers are more advanced and have a capacity that is orders of magnitude greater than the ones just seven years earlier in TNG."
19:16:32 <elliott> So I take it Uplink has no support of widescreen resolutions?
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19:17:01 <olsner> I think we already have orders of magnitude compared to 7 years ago... so that would make perfect sense :/
19:17:18 <Vorpal> elliott, windowed yes. But you can only reach options after creating an account and clicking the x in the upper left corner to return to login screen
19:17:21 <elliott> Orders of magnitude? Not sure about that.
19:17:24 <Vorpal> then go to options there.
19:17:29 <elliott> Well, maybe in the field of supercomputers.
19:17:42 <elliott> Vorpal: So what's the symlinking again? >_>
19:17:56 <Vorpal> elliott, and you complain about me not having scrollback. ffs.
19:18:21 <elliott> It was a rather long time ago.
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19:18:58 <Vorpal> for the self extracting installer version. I haven't tried .tar.gz one:
19:18:59 <elliott> http://lparchive.org/Uplink/Update%202/8-008.png wait wat
19:19:02 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott, as I said to Phantom_Hoover before, get the patch and extract it. (./update.sh --help to see how to know where to place it) Then copy the missing data files from linux/uplink.zip on the bin/cue image to the lib. dir of it
19:19:03 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> symlink lib into bin/x86
19:19:03 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> run ./uplink in there
19:19:03 <elliott> Did this guy edit the data files?
19:19:20 <fizzie> ~ATH is indeed the best thing ever.
19:19:27 -!- `Fuco` has changed nick to Fuco.
19:19:31 <elliott> Can I have an asteriskerisk?
19:19:34 <fizzie> "This code, when executed, immediately causes the user's computer to explode, and places a curse on the user forever, along with everyone he knows, and everyone he'll ever meet.
19:19:34 <fizzie> Not surprisingly, later on you would run this code in a fit of stupidity.
19:19:35 <fizzie> You don't know how he does stuff like this. What does this even mean? It's nonsense. Is it even syntactically viable?? Are you allowed to color text like that??? ARGH. Maybe you should ask him about it some time."
19:19:59 -!- Fuco has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:20:05 <Vorpal> elliott, from the wiki I conclude that ~ATH is related to colourforth
19:20:21 <elliott> Vorpal: Can colorForth embed an animated eight-ball into code I THINK NOT
19:20:31 <elliott> I wonder how many thousands of strips behind I am now after my archive-binging attempt fizzled off.
19:20:43 <elliott> The kind of binge that lasts multiple weeks and leaves you with the mother of all hangovers.
19:20:56 <Vorpal> elliott, but look at the coloured code
19:22:55 -!- Fuco has joined.
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19:27:33 <elliott_> Got to the verification stage.
19:27:40 <elliott_> Uplink resisted all efforts to quit it.
19:27:45 <elliott_> Could not log in from console as I can not type my password.
19:29:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Calling the binary with -graphics_fullscreen windows it, although too clumsily to play.
19:31:12 <Phantom_Hoover> It doesn't allow resizing, so on my screen at least it gets blocked at the bottom.
19:33:27 <Vorpal> elliott_, yes that lp is moded: http://lparchive.org/Uplink/Update%205/21-021.png
19:33:28 <olsner> "<elliott_> Could not log in from console as I can not type my password." :D
19:33:28 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott.
19:33:36 <Vorpal> elliott_, that gateway I have never seen
19:33:40 <elliott> NickServ, I _can't_ type my password for you.
19:33:46 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:34:04 -!- elliott has joined.
19:34:07 <elliott> Can someone relink that LP?
19:34:19 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott_, yes that lp is moded: http://lparchive.org/Uplink/Update%205/21-021.png
19:34:21 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> elliott_, that gateway I have never seen
19:34:25 <Vorpal> http://lparchive.org/Uplink/Update%205/
19:35:15 <Vorpal> elliott, lucky for you
19:35:19 <elliott> in fact there is four 00s in a row
19:35:34 <elliott> hello, I am Aardvark, my password is varkism, and I am close to Tokyo
19:35:40 <elliott> My strategy is based on doing really stupid things.
19:35:52 <elliott> Vorpal: btw if you do change the IP generation, keep Uplink services' IP :D
19:37:25 <elliott> NO I DON'T WANT A TUTORIAL GO FUCK YOURSELF
19:37:28 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, really stupid things like taking on mainframe hacks with the default gateway?
19:37:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, make sure you delete the tutorial from your memory.
19:37:40 <elliott> Vorpal: That would be _sane_.
19:38:03 <elliott> BUT THAT WOULD BE REASONABLE
19:38:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this *is* moded right? http://lparchive.org/Uplink/Update%205/21-021.png
19:38:13 <elliott> Hey, how _do_ you delete things?
19:38:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or is there some way to "unlock" that in the normal version?
19:38:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it's Hacker Elite, the crappy 3rd-party version.
19:38:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It also has a Something Awful server.
19:38:40 <elliott> So it's clearly slightly modded.
19:38:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh I see. Because that one he has is significantly fancier than the best one I can get
19:38:45 <elliott> The background music of Uplink is SO COOL.
19:39:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Managing your own memory is done with the memory tab and the file copier and deleter.
19:39:15 <Vorpal> Sample Company LAN in the sea north of Alaska. Weird company
19:39:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and with defrag iirc
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19:39:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I needed that one at one point
19:39:42 <elliott> Time for UPLINK TEST MACHINE
19:39:47 <elliott> This calls for: SO MUCH ROUTING
19:39:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, there's a cluster of machines in Siberia on my game.
19:40:16 <Phantom_Hoover> The Russians clearly tried to foster economic growth there.
19:40:26 <elliott> How do you download files again? >_>;;
19:40:30 <elliott> Do you need another application?
19:40:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh I have clusters in Asia, including Siberia. Had one in AU before, not in this game
19:40:39 <Vorpal> elliott, you need the file copier
19:40:43 <elliott> P.S. I cheated on the test machine because I knew the password.
19:41:00 <elliott> Coooool, so they view network resources just like local resources.
19:41:08 <elliott> UPLINK INTERFACE: BETTER THAN UNIX
19:41:51 <elliott> Vorpal: btw try "help" at the console
19:41:56 <elliott> "delete" is the program to delete all files in current directory
19:42:03 <elliott> "shutdown" restarts the system (will fail if you've deleted everything)
19:42:15 <Vorpal> elliott, delete in log made uplink segfault
19:42:30 <elliott> Oh god deletion is slow I am being traced.
19:43:36 <elliott> :D Can't connect to the test server any more.
19:44:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So, re: that loans from every bank thing.
19:44:17 <elliott> Would it... actually work?
19:44:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: How do you find a list of banks, anyway?
19:45:03 <elliott> Bleh, there are so many of them.
19:45:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It doesn't even need tracing when you take out the loans, does it?
19:45:27 <elliott> That is, no proxying is required.
19:45:33 <elliott> ...What, hacking into banks?
19:45:40 <Vorpal> elliott, this... http://lparchive.org/Uplink/Update%207/ makes no sense
19:45:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Not that far yet bro
19:46:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just take out the maximum loan, right?
19:46:12 <elliott> They don't offer you much though...
19:46:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the Protovision games server gives a wargames thing that's much like Defcon.
19:47:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes but check the login-window there, windows style
19:47:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, where did it come from
19:47:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, it is not from uplink is it?
19:47:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Max loan: 0c"
19:47:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: why is beta corp jerks?
19:48:25 <elliott> I think it's going to be like this for everything.
19:48:56 <elliott> Arunmor Access TerminalX I should connect to thatX
19:49:03 <Vorpal> http://lparchive.org/Uplink/Update%207/7-005.jpg <-- I'm certain that introversion made a game based on this
19:49:08 <Vorpal> wasn't it called defcon?
19:49:17 <elliott> That is probably a screenshot.
19:49:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so not from the in-game war game interface?
19:50:48 <elliott> NEVER search for Google on Google. You could break the internet.
19:51:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BTW, in logs I told you that [Four] on Demand has tons of IT Crowd for free.
19:51:50 <elliott> Better quality than YouTube too, I think.
19:52:37 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, incidentally, connect to the Andromeda Access Terminal.
19:53:04 <elliott> Oh I have _read_ this before.
19:53:30 <elliott> It says it's March two-thousand-and-ten.
19:53:33 <elliott> Uplink is now officially set in the past.
19:54:13 <olsner> apparently 4 on demand is not available in my area
19:54:23 <elliott> olsner: Phantom_Hoover is British like me :P
19:54:33 <ais523> olsner: and what is your area? if not the UK, that's not surprising
19:56:35 <olsner> ais523: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y463g76MFRw#t=35s
19:57:05 <elliott> Vorpal: I like how connecting to a down IP is a four-oh-four.
20:00:15 <Vorpal> elliott, oh I haven't tried that
20:00:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Connect to the Uplink Test Machine, open the console, cd sys; delete; shutdown (one per line).
20:00:35 <elliott> Wait for it to sever the connection.
20:00:40 <elliott> Tada, instant four-oh-four for the rest of the game.
20:01:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Dictionary hacker, password breaker, trace tracker. What else should I buy?
20:03:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Unnecessary. Console can do it quicker.
20:04:10 <Vorpal> elliott, dict hacker isn't that needed afaik. password breaker can do the job
20:04:19 <Vorpal> elliott, HUD_connection_whatever
20:04:46 <elliott> A newer trace tracker would be a good idea, but I just foolishly bought an older version.
20:05:13 <elliott> So I have password breaker one and trace tracker two.
20:05:17 <elliott> Anything else for stupidity?
20:05:29 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. what rating?
20:05:31 <elliott> Firewall things? Proxy disable?
20:05:53 <Vorpal> elliott, hm not much other then. You won't be able to take fancy tasks yet
20:06:07 <elliott> I plan to use Nonsense to do so.
20:06:11 -!- Fuco has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:06:22 <Vorpal> elliott, oh not doing missions?
20:06:22 <elliott> Which means: PROXY THROUGH EVERYTHING. DO THE STUPIDEST THING POSSIBLE AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT.
20:06:33 <elliott> I WILL DO THEM UNCONVENTIONALLY
20:06:50 -!- Fuco has joined.
20:06:57 <Vorpal> elliott, a lot of the _bypass ones need the too expensive HUD one
20:07:11 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I'd go for faster hardware when you have the money.
20:07:19 <elliott> Firewall_Disable is detected immediately so sounds lame.
20:07:26 <elliott> Vorpal: I plan to get all money by robbing banks.
20:07:34 <Vorpal> elliott, haven't tried that
20:07:41 <Vorpal> no clue what you need for it
20:07:46 <elliott> Ooh, I can afford a one hundred ghz processor.
20:08:01 <Vorpal> elliott, only? I have 8 200 GHZ Turbo ones!
20:08:06 <Vorpal> I have the fanciest system now.
20:08:32 <Vorpal> elliott, yes because I'm trying to debug things. I have a legit game too
20:08:55 <elliott> I managed to get zero balance.
20:09:01 <elliott> But now I'm clicking decrease loan and have negative balance.
20:09:04 <elliott> And can't click increase loan again.
20:09:17 <elliott> Oh well, now I'm in massive debt. Who cares?
20:09:17 <Vorpal> I think I heard about such a bug
20:09:29 <elliott> Oh, I can increase it again.
20:09:53 <elliott> Now to use the forces of Ridiculousness to hack the Uplink bank.
20:10:11 <elliott> Can't I just proxy in, make a shell account, get a ridiculous loan, and transfer it to my account?
20:10:41 <Vorpal> elliott, you need to bypass the level 4 or whatever proxy it has
20:10:47 <Vorpal> elliott, I could analyse it with the HUD for you
20:10:55 <elliott> I just mean, proxy through a bunch of machines.
20:10:59 <elliott> Or will it trace them? I can use more than four.
20:11:10 <Vorpal> elliott, oh right. The proxy of the machine will stop editing
20:11:20 <Vorpal> elliott, that is what proxy_disable is about
20:11:24 <elliott> I just mean, take out a new loan.
20:11:45 <Vorpal> elliott, you will get "permission denied". Banks have good security afaik
20:11:54 <elliott> So Proxy_Disable will work?
20:12:35 <Vorpal> elliott, if high enough version, Proxy_bypass is better.
20:12:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Proxy and monitor on the connection; the proxy only matters if you want to cover your tracks, the monitor will prevent a trace if bypassed.
20:13:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Password, voice print and elliptic curve cypher on admin account; you'll need this to cover your tracks.
20:13:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Banks have really fast log traces, so see to that immediately after disconnecting.
20:13:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not trying to hack into the admin account.
20:14:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm trying to create a shell account, take out the largest loan, then transfer the money to my normal account, and abandon that shell account.
20:14:29 <Vorpal> uplink bank has proxy level 5
20:15:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So what are the obstacles here?
20:15:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I thought proxies were about preventing editing records?
20:15:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or is that firewalls?
20:15:44 <elliott> By proxy, I just mean CONNECTING VIA OTHER MACHINES
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20:21:11 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you can't take out bank accounts without them being yours.
20:21:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I just accept a mission that involves tracking a very large transfer, then stealing it.
20:21:51 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, you can't take out bank accounts without them being yours.
20:21:59 <elliott> I can _transfer my loan_ willingly.
20:24:13 <Vorpal> listen to what Phantom_Hoover said. He knows what he is talking about
20:24:22 <elliott> Vorpal: Sorry for requesting clarification
20:24:38 <elliott> I am trying to make sure that PH _knows_ what I mean, and find out _why_ it won't work
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20:25:57 <Vorpal> elliott, because of "that would be a game breaker"
20:26:06 <elliott> Vorpal: No, I mean why it doesn't _technically_ work.
20:26:25 <elliott> i.e. Do banks, code-wise, just have a magic oracle function that lets them know it's me connecting?
20:26:43 <elliott> Vorpal: I did. You chastised me.
20:27:09 <Vorpal> elliott, no you made a statement to the effect of Phantom_Hoover being wrong.
20:27:20 <elliott> No, I was trying to clarify.
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20:29:04 <Vorpal> wait a second... "Darwin Research Associates"
20:29:14 <Vorpal> isn't that the fictional company in Darwinia?
20:29:33 <Vorpal> elliott, it would fit so well with the plot too
20:29:41 <Vorpal> digital life forms and so on
20:29:45 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314.
20:29:55 <elliott> I'm really looking forward to Subversion, even if I, like everybody on the planet, has no idea what it even is.
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20:31:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Could you answer my question?
20:31:12 <Vorpal> argh can't find it in darwinia, it is in the first time start up movie intro iirc
20:31:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, well, aren't loans proportional to your balance?
20:31:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Hmm. Yes. But consider this.
20:31:52 <elliott> - With your main account, take out the largest loan.
20:31:58 <elliott> - Transfer half of it to a new shell account A.
20:32:08 <elliott> - A takes out maximum loan.
20:32:14 <elliott> - A transfers half of balance to new shell account B.
20:32:26 <elliott> - All shell accounts transfer whole balance to main account.
20:32:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, you'd get a bit of cash from it, but not that much.
20:32:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Um, you can get _indefinite_ cash.
20:33:14 <elliott> MY NUMBER KEYS ARE BROKEN OKAY
20:36:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Am I wrong, wouldn't it get infinite cash?
20:36:10 <elliott> If you can take out only (balance+one) as a loan, you can get as much cash as you have time.
20:37:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Then you can get even moar cash.
20:37:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: UNLESS, as Vorpal says, you can only ever have one account on one bank, no matter how you cover your tracks.
20:38:04 <elliott> Which would be STUPID, but I suppose is possible.
20:38:23 <Vorpal> elliott, I didn't say that
20:38:27 <elliott> Or if it's considered illegal to have money that came from defaulted loans.
20:38:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: TUNNEL THROUGH MORE BANKS
20:39:11 <Vorpal> elliott, I said that to edit it, you would need advanced disabling software
20:39:33 <elliott> When did I say I wanted to edit anything?
20:39:44 <Vorpal> elliott, admin and edit records kind of stuff
20:39:45 <elliott> "At the height of my wealth, I was worth a whopping 20,000 credits. To see over three-quarters of a million in one account was a humbling experience. Some day, soon, I would be in that position too."
20:39:54 <Vorpal> elliott, you could try your luck on the stock market
20:39:55 <elliott> Vorpal: There are exactly three actions involved in the process:
20:40:10 <elliott> <elliott> - With your main account, take out the largest loan.
20:40:10 <elliott> <elliott> - Transfer half of it to a new shell account A.
20:40:10 <elliott> <elliott> - A takes out maximum loan.
20:40:10 <elliott> <elliott> - A transfers half of balance to new shell account B.
20:40:12 <elliott> <elliott> - All shell accounts transfer whole balance to main account.
20:40:21 <Vorpal> elliott, not sure. Might work. Might not
20:40:26 <elliott> In fact, don't even transfer half of balance.
20:40:49 <Vorpal> elliott, how will you erase the tracks of that transaction?
20:40:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Which transaction? The last one?
20:41:09 <Vorpal> elliott, the ones to your account yes
20:41:14 <elliott> Vorpal: Why do you need to?
20:41:21 <elliott> It is not illegal to have funds from someone who got arrested from defaulting on their loan.
20:41:32 <elliott> And in fact, with my revised plan -- transfer ALL the money -- _you_ only receive cash from one person.
20:41:37 <elliott> And you give it to someone else entirely, to start with.
20:41:44 <elliott> And if you erase the logs of your proxy accounts, you are untraceable.
20:42:22 <Vorpal> <elliott> It is not illegal to have funds from someone who got arrested from defaulting on their loan. <-- who. You would need to hack that account.
20:42:33 <Vorpal> otherwise it would still be your account
20:42:39 <elliott> __All the accounts are created by you.__
20:42:47 <elliott> They don't _know_ all the accounts are yours because YOU PROXY.
20:42:48 <Vorpal> elliott, so the one arrested would be you
20:43:04 <Vorpal> elliott, "<elliott> It is not illegal to have funds from someone who got arrested from defaulting on their loan."
20:43:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: They're logged as being done by somebody UNTRACEABLE.
20:43:28 <elliott> It is not illegal to give money to someone who defaults on their loan. It is not illegal to receive money from someone who defaults on their loan.
20:43:39 <elliott> Everything done by you is either perfectly legal (those two actions), or NOT TRACEABLE BACK TO YOU.
20:44:21 <olsner> I think they can assume you're the only one playing the game at that time - if anything gets hacked anywhere it's obviously you who did it :)
20:44:47 <elliott> olsner: Uplink isn't based around that principle, though.
20:44:53 <elliott> Otherwise you'd get traced instantly by everyone.
20:45:01 <elliott> That would not be much of a game.
20:45:35 <elliott> olsner: But they do have news reports of random hacks happening... dunno if that is reflected in the actual server contents though :)
20:45:44 <olsner> unless you make it a massively multiplayer hacking game... oh wait, that'd just be The Internet
20:45:53 <elliott> networked Uplink would be great fun
20:48:25 <elliott> fizzie: How long do I gotta read this LP before the different side of ARC appears :P
20:48:52 <elliott> Apart from these... machine change scenes.
20:49:10 <elliott> I suppose this guy is hallucinating this entire Uplink thing or something.
20:55:57 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I've been asked to steal files from empty servers before, so it does simulate other hackers to some degree.
20:56:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Do you think my bank trick would work?
20:56:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You should have a go at it; you're better at the game and have better tools than me.
20:56:55 <elliott> If it _does_ work, you can get as much money as you want, limited only by your patience.
20:58:04 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:58:34 * pikhq wonders how easy it is to use Kconfig outside of Linux
20:58:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:58:53 <elliott> pikhq: BusyBox does it. Or do you mean, like, on Windows?
20:59:01 <elliott> gittup also uses it for full system configuration :)
20:59:09 <pikhq> Gregor: Hence why I say "easy", not "possible".
20:59:21 <pikhq> I know it's possible. I just wonder if it's fucking annoying to do so.
20:59:31 <elliott> pikhq: Well, Kconfig files are pretty simple.
20:59:41 <elliott> And the output format is, too.
20:59:53 <pikhq> And it should integrate nicely with, say, Tup.
20:59:56 <elliott> pikhq: Mind you, I find Kconfig quite distasteful to use...
21:00:08 <elliott> It works for things like Linux or BusyBox with five thousand configuration options.
21:00:15 <elliott> But if there's fewer, a plain text file is nicer.
21:00:47 <Gregor> Yeah, Kconfig is mostly useful where the number of configuration options rivals the number of grains of sand in the Sahara.
21:00:50 <elliott> Gregor: btw tup has that auto-build-when-a-file-changes thing. Unfortunately it's built in to the monitor which unconditionally daemonises, but I've sent off a message to the mailing list about getting that fixed.
21:00:53 <pikhq> Yeah, kconfig *seems* like the option of choice only if you have a very configurable thing.
21:01:08 <elliott> "Ok, I added a '-f' option to the monitor so it will run in the
21:01:09 <elliott> foreground. Run as 'tup monitor -f' (currently only in the master
21:01:09 <elliott> branch). You can kill it with ctrl-C in the monitor terminal, or by
21:01:09 <elliott> running 'tup stop' in another terminal."
21:01:12 <elliott> Gregor: OK, it has exactly what you wanted :P
21:01:33 <elliott> [dollar] tup config autoupdate [one]
21:01:42 <elliott> (rebuilds whenever a file changes)
21:01:47 <Gregor> Exactly what I wanted was for gmake to do it <trollface/>
21:02:03 <elliott> Gregor: Well, there's been work wrt making tup be able to trace gmake properly :)
21:02:06 <elliott> With variable output files.
21:02:19 <elliott> Gregor: But pah, you want to use tup anyway :P
21:02:21 <elliott> The arrows go upwardsXXXXX
21:02:31 <pikhq> Gregor: Tup > Make, it seems.
21:02:39 <Gregor> I'mma wait 'til your silly obsessions end to determine how good it actually is.
21:02:47 <elliott> Gregor: Actually I've known about tup for months.
21:02:53 <elliott> Gregor: It's just that pikhq went all advocatin' redo :P
21:03:03 <elliott> And I looked into redo at the same time as tup, and tup is incomprehensibly better than both redo and make.
21:03:43 <pikhq> Gregor: Don't mind the "the arrows go upwards" bit, what's relevant is that it does its dependency checking by first looking for what files have changed and then checking what files need to be remade because of that.
21:03:58 <elliott> That IS the "arrows go upwards" bit :P
21:04:05 <elliott> But I'm sure Gregor is capable of reading the site and the paper.
21:04:18 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, but without elaborating it just sounds like "I CHANGED THE ARROWS. LAWL. EVERYTHING BETTER"
21:04:25 <elliott> THAT IS PRECISELY THE CASE.
21:05:54 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, Tup's Tupvars thing's file format is IIRC deliberately designed to be directly compatible with Kconfig.
21:06:02 <pikhq> elliott: Yuh, I know.
21:06:03 <elliott> i.e., Tup can literally use Kconfig output directly.
21:06:23 <pikhq> Which is how he got away with making busybox use Tup with ease. :P
21:06:39 <elliott> pikhq: What would be nice is something like configure that just outputted some tupvars. And didn't start witht he assumption that the C compiler and the libc were logically inconsistent and broken at a fundamentaly level :)
21:07:02 <pikhq> elliott: So, a very carefully designed autoconf setup.
21:07:25 <pikhq> Believe it or not, you *can* make autoconf start with the assumption that the compiler and libc are sane.
21:07:28 <elliott> pikhq: Or preferably something that isn't autoconf entirely.
21:07:45 <pikhq> Well, yes, I'm just saying autoconf *can* do something not retarded. :P
21:07:54 <pikhq> ... Aside from be in M4SH, of course.
21:08:18 * elliott look sat M4SH OH DEAR GOD this explains everything
21:08:51 <Gregor> HahaGET A NEW KEYBOARD
21:09:03 <pikhq> What, you didn't know? The entire GNU build system is written in M4SHM4Make.
21:09:24 <pikhq> Yes, the two layers of M4 are entirely intentional.
21:09:37 <elliott> Gregor: THIS ONE'S KINDA EXPENSIVE BRO
21:09:51 <pikhq> It is genuinely astounding that anyone manages to make that work.
21:09:52 <elliott> pikhq: Also: something must be built on tup and called either "perware" or "erware".
21:10:12 <Gregor> HahaGET A FIXED LAPTOP
21:10:21 <pikhq> elliott: Inquiry: would you consider bsnes something deserving of Kconfigisation?
21:10:37 <pikhq> elliott: I mean, contrary to the appearance, it has rather a lot of configuration.
21:10:46 <elliott> pikhq: Does it even have any settings apart from the profile...?
21:10:48 <pikhq> That's just buried.
21:11:00 <Gregor> elliott: Inquiry: Do you find prefacing questions with "Inquiry:" to be pointless pretension?
21:11:13 <elliott> pikhq: If it's like twenty, a plain file format is preferable.
21:11:21 <pikhq> You can actually select which version of chips are used individually...
21:11:30 <pikhq> The profiles are just preset choices of that.
21:11:45 <elliott> pikhq: You can certainly Kconfig-ise it, but I think only a madman would actually want to configure that deeply :P
21:11:56 <pikhq> You can also enable/disable each driver that's in the UI.
21:12:49 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, it's pretty useful to do so. If you use the compatibility PPU and performance everything else, you get a faster-than-compatibility bsnes with fewer graphics bugs.
21:13:02 <pikhq> Oh, yeah, there's also the multiple possible phoenix backends.
21:13:10 <elliott> pikhq: Maybe that should be a profile in itself.
21:13:59 <pikhq> And there's a few more configuration options that probably *would* be in there if there was a better configuration setup...
21:14:04 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Yahweasel.
21:14:24 <elliott> pikhq: Are you converting bsnes to tup, perchance? :P
21:14:25 <Yahweasel> Offending everyone: It's how I roll.
21:14:36 <pikhq> Gambatte vs. bgameboy, HLE vs. LLE for the DSPs, etc.
21:14:40 <pikhq> elliott: Considering it.
21:14:47 <elliott> * Nigger_Bitch_Ass :Erroneous Nickname
21:15:02 <Yahweasel> Offending some people: It's how I roll.
21:15:27 <Vorpal> elliott, how did your scam in uplink work out?
21:15:28 <elliott> Yahweasel: If I was black, and female, that nickname would be utterly unobjectionable.
21:15:44 <pikhq> Oh, and if you're crazy, you may wish to select libco implementations.
21:15:45 <elliott> Vorpal: I've delegated the running of it to Phantom_Hoover, who plays the game slightly more sanely than I and so has the necessary equipment and experience to actually pull it off.
21:16:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, did you try it?
21:16:26 <elliott> It's an involved operation.
21:16:31 <elliott> It would take hours to get an appreciable sum.
21:16:34 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed, that is why I didn't say "is it done yet"
21:16:46 <elliott> Technically you can do it almost as slowly as you want.
21:16:56 <elliott> As long as your latest account doesn't default on its lone, you can breathe.
21:17:18 <Vorpal> elliott, who do they think are connected to your other accounts then?
21:17:35 <elliott> Those accounts will be in massive debt with zero balance.
21:17:47 <elliott> But they won't be used again.
21:17:52 <pikhq> (lessee. One using UNIX signals, one using ucontext, one directly munging the stack on x86 UNIX. One using Win32 fibers and one directly munging the stack on Win32)
21:18:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, none using pthreads to simulate it?
21:19:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: Someone wrote it, but it's the most painful thing.
21:19:31 <pikhq> Vorpal: bsnes syncs between threads often enough that *ucontext* has obnoxious overhead.
21:19:41 <elliott> "I was going to hack Uplink itself."
21:19:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, so... what does it use?
21:20:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, so bsnes won't work on non-x86?
21:20:13 <elliott> <pikhq> (lessee. One using UNIX signals, one using ucontext, one directly munging the stack on x86 UNIX. One using Win32 fibers and one directly munging the stack on Win32)
21:20:49 <Vorpal> I thought the library in question.
21:20:49 <elliott> "Bingo. The personal information of every Uplink agent in the company. The level-7 fractal encryption on each of the large data files looked menacing, but chaos theory teaches us that fractals look exactly the same when magnified. I burned through the encryption and downloaded the lot."
21:20:57 <elliott> (at that fractal encryption)
21:20:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, so x86-64 builds are slower?
21:21:07 <elliott> xeightsix stack = xeightsix-sixtyfour stack
21:21:37 <Vorpal> elliott, what about the red zone, only x86-64 has it
21:21:58 <elliott> To a memcpy it's all the same.
21:22:20 <pikhq> Vorpal: It stack munging on x86, x86-64, and ppc presently.
21:22:30 <Vorpal> elliott, surely it would be more efficiently to change the stack pointer register instead?
21:23:14 <Vorpal> elliott, why, why not just switch stack by changing %rsp?
21:23:18 <pikhq> elliott: Why not just have multiple stacks in memory, and switch the stack pointer? :)
21:23:36 <elliott> That doesn't work for continuations, though.
21:23:38 <elliott> For those you need memcpy.
21:23:43 <Yahweasel> "chaos theory teaches us that fractals look exactly the same when magnified" <-- apparently this is chaos theory now.
21:23:52 <elliott> I've no experience with coroutine implementation, only continuations.
21:23:58 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe. But the overhead of memcpy would be silly
21:23:59 <elliott> Yahweasel: It's a joke, it's from an Uplink Let's Play :P
21:24:03 <elliott> Vorpal: What, for continuations?
21:24:13 <pikhq> Yeah, but libco is just doing coroutines, not full continuations.
21:24:13 <elliott> memcpy will take approximately zero instants.
21:24:16 <Vorpal> elliott, no for coroutines...
21:24:24 <elliott> But as I said, my experience is in continuations.
21:27:41 <elliott> lol [at] Revelation is only four gigaquads
21:30:09 <Sgeo_> There was a Revelation.exe on an Uplink fansite once. I daren't touch it
21:30:31 <elliott> yeah, someone made an actual virus and then released it to only uplink fanboys
21:30:34 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:30:37 <elliott> an effective method of distribution
21:31:03 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
21:31:17 <elliott> "The last thing I saw before slipping off into dreams was a ridge with a large stone monument in the shape of an elephant skull, the plaque nearby reading "Ever am I at war with the living; I have come to terms with the dead.""
21:31:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That actually in Scotland? :P
21:32:16 <tswett> I wonder if it's possible to construct a quantum pre-computer.
21:33:16 <tswett> Where you calculate a function by first doing a bunch of computation in order to create quantum state, and then you're given the inputs to a function, and the quantum state you've already created allows you to compute the function faster than you normally would be able to.
21:36:27 <tswett> If someone had a faster computer than you, they could create these quantum states and send them to you over the quantum Internet, and boom. You'd be able to use that stored-up computing power for a while.
21:37:05 <elliott> It sounds cool, dunno about feasibility though.
21:38:11 <tswett> Yeah. I wonder how it might work, it it might work. :P
21:40:41 <tswett> I suppose such a computer could consist of some input qubits, some output qubits, and a bunch of intermediate qubits, and a whole lot of entanglement.
21:41:07 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm gonna guess that that Darwin Research Associates email from the LP is fake or modded.
21:41:55 <tswett> Hm, but there's that one theorem stating that you can't transmit information just by observing your qubits.
21:42:36 <tswett> Imagine Alice has all the input qubits and Bob has all the output qubits. Nothing Alice does can give Bob useful information. Therefore, nothing you do to the input qubits, alone, can put useful information into the output qubits.
21:46:46 <elliott> pikhq: Oh wow, monitor -f with autoupdate works perfectly.
21:47:31 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:51:09 <pikhq> elliott: So. Should I try to Tupify bsnes?
21:51:21 <elliott> I doubt byuu will accept it into mainline.
21:51:57 <pikhq> Unless he wrote Tup. :P
21:54:20 <elliott> Clearly you must simply convince him to rewrite tup.
21:54:24 <elliott> Because what it needs is more C++.
22:01:31 -!- cheater99 has joined.
22:02:33 -!- cheater- has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:07:15 <elliott> "Damnit damnit damnit Faith, get OUT of my head! This scenario isn't even plausable"
22:25:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You mean what I suggested?
22:25:38 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I mean finding an account with 1e5-1e5 credits in it and stealing it.
22:25:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Are you gonna try my suggestion?
22:26:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Currently I have slightly over a million credits sitting in my Uplink account.
22:26:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Ooh... What's the maximum loan you can take out?
22:26:23 <elliott> If large, you could do my idea with ASTOUNDING efficiency.
22:27:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I bet other banks give you better rates.
22:27:27 <elliott> Transfer all your money to another one, and check there. :P
22:27:42 <elliott> (Let's put it this way: If my plan won't work, you'll know it from the very start. So it's risk-free.)
22:27:47 <elliott> (i.e. you won't be able to create another account.)
22:27:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know, I was in a hurry to get it out of the original account since it was the one I set up on the hacked server.
22:28:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Gimme your save file and let me try :P
22:28:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Blaaar, you have to :|
22:29:08 <Phantom_Hoover> You have to *manually* type in the IP of the bank, the account name and the amount.
22:29:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Can't you paste in using windowed mode?
22:29:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Stop it, I want to go to the Uplink Internal Services server and buy stuff!
22:30:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Okay okay okay, but what if you just tried it with, say, two shell accounts?
22:30:08 <elliott> That would be a proof of concept and easy.
22:33:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It'd literally require it only four times.
22:34:05 <elliott> It takes a few seconds to type out an IP.
22:34:30 <tswett> What's this Uplink stuff that apparently can be hacked to yield some type of currency?
22:34:59 <elliott> A Hollywood hacking simulator. Indie game, two-thousand and one. Very good.
22:35:15 <elliott> Very deep world. Surprisingly realistic in parts -- well, as realistic as Hollywood hacking gets.
22:35:37 <elliott> Introversion software, same people as Darwinia and DEFCON.
22:36:32 <elliott> I'm currently trying to convince Phantom_Hoover to execute my tedious-but-profitable bank scheme idea. :p
22:38:58 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> It might be capped. <-- hm
22:39:05 <Vorpal> int maxcredit = thisint->account->loan + game->GetWorld ()->GetPlayer ()->rating.creditrating * 100;
22:39:07 -!- Agent_Hoover has joined.
22:39:18 <Vorpal> lets find creditrating
22:40:06 <Vorpal> TJ is going to cane Sega Rally! Merry Xmas!
22:40:53 <elliott> Vorpal: The in-game IRC client, presumably.
22:41:01 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: You know, I'm not sure the assumption that ARC are inherently anti-Internet is correct.
22:41:16 <elliott> Their mission statement expresses dismay at the demise of anonymity on the Internet and of its corporate takeover.
22:41:31 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't it limited to a specific IRC server?
22:41:34 <elliott> To be honest, ARC seem to be more closely-aligned to sanity than us.
22:41:36 <elliott> Vorpal: I don't believe so.
22:41:46 <elliott> To be honest, ARC seem to be more closely-aligned to sanity than Arunmor.
22:42:18 <Agent_Hoover> But their campaign is a bitch and the game ends if you manage to complete it, so...
22:42:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:42:51 <elliott> "We all agree that technology has gone too far, but cannot agree how to go about changing the march of science to reflect this." -- the LP
22:43:06 <elliott> I realise it deviates from the story somewhat, but still /shrug
22:43:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, from what I can tell multiple things affect your credit rating. 1) Current balance 2) Your uplink agent rating caps it to some degree 3) changing the loan seems to somehow affect it.
22:44:01 <Agent_Hoover> lthough come to think of it I'm nowhere near the start of the campaign (I haven't even had a single monthly payment yet).
22:44:09 <Sgeo_> Should I watch an Uplink LP, or actually play?
22:44:14 <Sgeo_> I think I'd prefer to watch
22:44:21 <Agent_Hoover> So I could trigger it early and help ARC restore free dome.
22:44:22 <elliott> http://lparchive.org/Uplink/
22:44:29 <elliott> It's the Yogscast of UplinkX
22:44:38 <Vorpal> Agent_Hoover, what, really?
22:44:42 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: _Please_ try out my bank trick first.
22:44:48 <elliott> It's only FOUR typings of an IP address.
22:44:52 * Sgeo_ hits elliott with a bang
22:45:27 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: But... do it on another bank.
22:45:33 <elliott> That Uplink bank loan limit is crappy.
22:45:56 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: BTW, obviously you'll want to proxy up for all the shell account business. BUT
22:45:57 <Vorpal> Agent_Hoover, elliott, note that uplink bank is unhackable. maybe
22:45:58 <Vorpal> Q: What is in the Uplink Bank/Government Mainframe?
22:45:58 <Vorpal> A: They are un-hackable. But even if somehow you did manage to get in, the Government Mainframe is empty, and the Uplink bank has but one account - yours. Sorry, you can't hack it.
22:46:16 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: OK, let me make a full step list.
22:46:29 <elliott> - Move your account to a nicer bank.
22:46:36 <Vorpal> Agent_Hoover, back up your ~/.uplink before you attempt elliott's zanny scheme
22:46:42 <elliott> - [Proxied] Connect to that same bank. Create a new throw-away account, but remember the password.
22:46:55 <elliott> - [UNPROXIED] Transfer all funds from your main account to that throw-away account.
22:46:59 <Agent_Hoover> ait, what happens if you have loans and no money?
22:47:03 <elliott> [Proxied] Connect to the bank. Create another throw-away.
22:47:17 <elliott> - [Proxied] Connect to the first throw-away. Fill up the loan to full. Transfer ALL funds to the second throw-away.
22:47:30 <elliott> - [Proxied] Connect to the second throw-away. Fill up the loan to full. Transfer ALL funds to your main account.
22:47:35 <elliott> Then clear your proxied trace.
22:47:49 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: "Shit", I would assume, but this will go too quickly for that to matter.
22:47:56 <Vorpal> elliott, banks trace passively fast. You will need to clear trace in between
22:48:14 <elliott> I assume Agent_Hoover is sane enough to know that.
22:48:19 <elliott> After all, he DID just do another bank heist.
22:48:37 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: Anyway, your profit will be two full loans' worth.
22:48:58 <Agent_Hoover> Hang on, I want to see what happens with a big loan and no money.
22:49:41 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: Don't do it on your main bank account
22:49:46 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: Anyway, wait.
22:49:48 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: MY HEIST TESTS THAT
22:49:50 <Vorpal> elliott, it actually seems to *add a feature*
22:49:55 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: Just log in to the first or second shell account after it's done.
22:50:01 <Vorpal> elliott, not just do something zanny
22:50:21 <Vorpal> elliott, something with banks. It is badly commented. Hasn't worked it out yet
22:50:30 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: So, just do my heist, THEN you can find out.
22:51:38 <Vorpal> /#defineDOCLABRELEASE // This version designed for DOC labs
22:51:39 <Vorpal> /#defineWAREZRELEASE // Purity Control
22:51:39 -!- Agent_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:51:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: So GO FOR IT
22:52:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wait, that's okay.
22:52:16 <Vorpal> elliott, your scheme falls to pieces
22:52:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Just decrease the loan to zero after transferring all money.
22:52:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You'll end up with negative money, but it doesn't matter, it's a shell account.
22:52:51 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> The limit is the same for all accounts. <-- I expected that based on what I pasted from the source above
22:53:30 <elliott> Vorpal: It _doesn't matter_.
22:53:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Doesn't matter, the limit stays at 0 for the other accounts.
22:53:35 <elliott> You can still pull it off.
22:53:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: _Decrease the loan to zero after sending the money_
22:53:56 <elliott> This will put the loan limit back at four thousand.
22:54:01 <elliott> And put you into negative money, but that is irrelevant.
22:54:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Furthermore, negative money doesn't seem to exist properly.
22:54:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ... OK, listen.
22:54:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You see the decrease loan button?
22:54:58 <elliott> If you press that enough, the global loan counter becomes zero.
22:55:04 <elliott> Disconnect, connect to the other account, note loan count is back to full.
22:55:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, OK. Is it global or just bank-specific?
22:55:38 <elliott> This still lets you profit one full loan without consequences, mind you.
22:55:40 <elliott> Even though that's not much.
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22:55:55 <Vorpal> elliott, loan is per account as far as I can tell, but credit rating is global.
22:56:09 <elliott> Vorpal: I like how that makes NO SENSE AT ALL.
22:56:24 <Vorpal> elliott, actually it does?
22:56:36 <elliott> It makes sense iff you assume you're the only person in the universe.
22:56:47 <elliott> There is no way the banks know that the shell accounts are you.
22:56:52 <Vorpal> elliott, oh with global I meant tied to the player object
22:56:57 <elliott> So their actions decreasing your credit location is bullshit.
22:57:06 <elliott> Vorpal: The point is, YOU didn't default on your loan.
22:57:10 <elliott> SHELL ACCOUNT FORTY-TWO did.
22:57:18 <zzo38> There is so many bad quality of math render by webpage, so I invented a good quality one. Even, someone told me it is better quality once they did it.
22:57:18 <elliott> You removed all traces so _the banks do not know it is you_.
22:57:25 <elliott> So it is NONSENSE that that decreases your credit rating.
22:57:25 <Vorpal> elliott, see what Phantom_Hoover said
22:57:28 <Phantom_Hoover> So it's plausible that for banks at least you have to declare it's you.
22:57:31 <elliott> Vorpal: I REALISE HOW IT WORKS CODE-WISE
22:57:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Err, servers don't know that they're on my favourites list.
22:57:45 <Vorpal> elliott, meaning that while your scheme seems nice it won't work
22:57:53 <zzo38> I do not understand how credit-ratings work, but I have no credit card, so I do not use them.
22:57:54 <elliott> Vorpal: I've already admitted it won't work, please shut up.
22:57:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Same with hacked transfers; doesn't matter how anonymously you made the recipient account, you're still caught for it.
22:58:02 <elliott> Right now I'm just saying that the design of Uplink in this area is stupid.
22:58:10 <elliott> It avoids game-breaking by being completely illogical.
22:58:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Computers track data all the time; the fact that a global list of your accounts exists on your gateway doesn't mean the banks know about it.
22:58:36 <elliott> Also, yes, but logical and not game-breaking > both.
22:58:43 <elliott> Make banks insanely good at tracking if you try that, or something.
22:58:50 <Vorpal> ramp up bank security to 11 maybe
22:58:52 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, it's plausible that in Uplinkland some form of more concrete ID is needed for bank accounts.
22:58:58 <Vorpal> by the time you can do it, it is no longer worth it
22:59:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That should be explicit, then.
22:59:25 <elliott> Vorpal: Probably the best idea. It makes sense in the insanely corporatist world of Uplink that banks have crazy good security.
22:59:36 <elliott> Besides, with the loan limit it'd be so tedious anyway :)
22:59:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I'm saying that they _should_.
22:59:59 <elliott> To fix this exploit while keeping logical.
23:00:11 <Vorpal> the concrete ID would work too
23:00:18 <Vorpal> and not require reworking lots of missions
23:00:30 <Phantom_Hoover> The admin section is extremely well-protected, but the transfer logs aren't kept there, they're kept in userland for some insane reason.
23:00:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, they still passive-trace utterly fast
23:01:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, not fast enough to stop you if you have a monitor bypass.
23:01:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well since save/load route is broken I need to debug that before I can enjoy uplink dev x86-64
23:01:56 <elliott> Vorpal: Absurd that you wouldn't be able to forge a concrete ID.
23:02:04 <elliott> Maybe there should be people offering that, but it costs insane amounts of money.
23:02:10 <Phantom_Hoover> AFAICT they only begin the trace when the transaction occurs, which means that unless you take 2 minutes to make about 3 clicks you're entirely safe.
23:02:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, do you have a problem with system square on map not being rendered on the clickable area when zoomed in a lot?
23:02:41 <elliott> Vorpal: It would be reaaaally nice if you added two-times text scaling, it is so tiny :P
23:02:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I had the same in 1.54...
23:03:11 <Vorpal> elliott, nah works fine on my low res desktop monitor. And it sounds awkward to do it anyway
23:04:18 <Vorpal> elliott, a lot of code is pixel based in offsets
23:04:29 <elliott> Vorpal: OK fine just add an SDL scaling call of some sort.
23:04:36 <Vorpal> elliott, doesn't it use opengl?
23:04:54 <Vorpal> elliott, why then did I have to mess with gl calls when working on world map code?
23:05:09 <Vorpal> elliott, it uses sdl too yes
23:05:18 <elliott> WELL DO IT AT SDL LEVEL FIRST
23:05:35 <Vorpal> elliott, you can do it
23:05:42 <elliott> I lack the dev thing and your diff.
23:06:09 -!- Agent_Hoover has joined.
23:06:13 <Vorpal> elliott, well the dev you could get. My diff hm yes... well okay I could generate that. It would be vast. Due to EOL changes
23:06:15 -!- Fuco has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:06:27 <Agent_Hoover> SO ANYWAY I am at the point of kickstarting the campaign.
23:06:31 <Vorpal> because configure: bad interpreter #!/bin/sh^M sucks
23:06:31 -!- zzo38 has left.
23:06:39 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: Can you work for BOTH ARC and Arunmor?
23:06:46 <elliott> I know Arunmor try to convince you to switch to their team at a point.
23:06:51 <Vorpal> that would be a good trick
23:06:55 <elliott> I heartily suggest you try and unleash both Faith and Revelation yourself.
23:07:03 <Agent_Hoover> hould I be Comrade Hoover, cyberrevolutionary, or Captain Hoover, Defender of Truth, Justice and the American Way?
23:07:29 <elliott> Cyberrevolutionary Defender of Truth, Justice, the American Way, and blowing up the Internet while simultaneously stopping yourself from doing so.
23:07:30 <Agent_Hoover> Arunmor try that immediately after ARC offer you the first mission.
23:07:46 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: Basically, in that Let's Play, the player stole Revelation.
23:07:52 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: I suggest that you steal both Revelation AND Faith.
23:07:54 <elliott> And set them off simultaneously.
23:08:04 <elliott> If both ARC and Arunmor reject you somehow, that is EVEN BETTER
23:08:06 <Agent_Hoover> An early version of Revelation which doesn't spread.
23:08:19 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: No, he stole three point oh.
23:08:21 * Yahweasel is a better nick than anything matching the regex .*_Hoover
23:08:26 <elliott> Or that could have just been flavour text.
23:08:27 <Agent_Hoover> The virulent form is only obtainable in the last mission of the ARC campaign.
23:08:30 <Vorpal> elliott, yes when working for ARC
23:08:43 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: OK. Do the ARC campaign.
23:08:48 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: But steal Faith from Arunmor.
23:08:54 <elliott> And set them off simultaneously.
23:08:56 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: WILL THAT WORK
23:09:37 <Vorpal> Agent_Hoover, what about when arunmor tries to run it and you have to combat it?
23:09:54 <Vorpal> Agent_Hoover, I think both sides are insane
23:10:01 <elliott> Vorpal: What's the sane thing?
23:10:08 <Vorpal> Agent_Hoover, what happens when you complete arunmor? Does the game end?
23:10:27 <elliott> ARC are obviously more "shady". But I think the result of the ARC campaign is superior to the result of the Arunmor campaign.
23:10:39 <elliott> Especially if it teaches everyone a lesson in computer security :D
23:10:51 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/oTLBn.png
23:10:54 <Vorpal> elliott, what happens if you don't join either side?
23:11:00 <elliott> KKK: "Dammit, stop it with this libel, we're not associated with WestboroX"
23:11:04 <elliott> KKK: "YOU'RE TRYING TO TARNISH OUR GOOD NAME"
23:11:09 <elliott> Vorpal: I forget; ask PH :P
23:11:17 <Agent_Hoover> ALSO I'M TRYING A LAN HACK SO I WON'T BE RESPONSIVE FOR A BIT
23:11:36 <Vorpal> Agent_Hoover, there is a pause button
23:11:39 <Agent_Hoover> If you don't join either events play out as they do in the Arunmor campaign.
23:12:54 <Agent_Hoover> ...OK this LAN has the target server right next to the entrance.
23:15:52 -!- augur has joined.
23:16:21 <elliott> Vorpal: BTW, though SKI works in C++, infinite loops don't seem to.
23:16:26 <elliott> I think there's a recursion limit of some sort.
23:16:33 <elliott> That is never explicitly shown.
23:16:53 <elliott> Oh wow, my foreach in C++ is insane.
23:17:26 <elliott> Vorpal: pikhq: BEHOLD: http://sprunge.us/GRgd
23:19:23 -!- Agent_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:21:30 -!- Agent_Hoover has joined.
23:22:07 <elliott> Agent_Hoover: HELLO USER UPLINK
23:22:20 <elliott> STATE TETRAQUAD NAME AND VIEW-ADDRESS OF ALLIANCE
23:23:46 <elliott> [ VORPAL ] VIOLATION OF PROTOCOL 9/9909 NOTICED. PLEASE REMOVE GANTIAN MATRIX FROM HOLDER AND REPEAT CONFESSION.
23:24:20 <Sgeo_> Dammit I can be so stupid
23:24:37 <elliott> Sgeo_: You are always so stupid.
23:24:43 <Sgeo_> Left ear starts working again. I poke ear with finger. Ear proceeds to stop working again.
23:25:51 -!- Agent_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:25:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:27:45 <pikhq> Sgeo_: You may wish to get that looked into.
23:30:03 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:30:03 <Sgeo_> pikhq, I don't _think_ it's dangerous
23:30:30 <Sgeo_> Also, not "completely stopped working". Just... quieter
23:30:49 <elliott> Does Sgeo_ really not know what to call ears popping?
23:31:02 -!- wareya has joined.
23:31:18 <Sgeo_> elliott, do ears stay popped for extended periods of time?
23:31:41 <elliott> BUT WAIT, ACCORDING TO THE DAILY FAIL, YOU ARE GOING DEAF: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1211815/Dont-ignore-ears-popping--mean-youre-deaf.html
23:31:53 * elliott eagerly waits for Sgeo_ to take the article at face value.
23:32:46 <pikhq> elliott: According to the Daily Fail, HURP DURP DE DERP
23:33:01 <elliott> According to the Daily Fail, CANCER CURES CANCER
23:33:04 <olsner> I think there are easier ways to determine whether you are deaf
23:33:17 <elliott> olsner: haha, that url is perfect :D
23:33:22 <Sgeo_> elliott, how do I unpop an ear?
23:33:35 <elliott> Sgeo_: I'm sorry, I can't talk to you, it's just really bad for my faith in humanity.
23:33:53 <pikhq> Isn't it obvious? You drain the pop out.
23:34:22 <olsner> a popped ear minus the pop is a healthy ear
23:34:52 <pikhq> Perhaps you should stop swimming in Coke in the future, BTW. That's the leading cause of popped ears, y'know.
23:35:42 <Sgeo_> My ear is now somewhere between fully functioning and what I've come to accept as normal
23:38:02 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, you might want to hold off tupising bsnes until something comes out of the variants discussion at http://groups.google.com/group/tup-users/browse_thread/thread/d995f2edb1d6fa/5e53332b354db20f.
23:39:08 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah. I'd read the thread.
23:39:58 <pikhq> Not quite sure I'm seeing the relevance
23:40:46 <elliott> mkdir build-foo && cd build-foo
23:40:46 <elliott> ../configure --lots-of-options --specific-to-this --variant # Writes a
23:40:46 <elliott> "config.h" and some variables for Tup.
23:40:46 <elliott> tup upd # all build output goes below the current directory
23:40:47 <elliott> This allows an arbitrary number of variants to coexist, with options as
23:40:49 <elliott> defined by the user, and leaves the source directory pristine which makes it
23:40:51 <elliott> easy to blast it away when you no longer need it (just just delete
23:41:03 <elliott> pikhq: Basically the combination of Phoenix UI backend and all the fiddly switches would constitute one backend.
23:41:10 -!- lauanana has joined.
23:41:15 <elliott> pikhq: And you'd want predefined variants for {performance,compatibility,accuracy}-{qt,gtk,...}.
23:42:27 -!- lauanana has quit (Client Quit).
23:44:45 * pikhq is somewhat annoyed that there is nothing actually good at automatic configuration of things.
23:45:45 <pikhq> It should *not* be hard to just go "I want a C99 compiler and the following libraries. Get cracking."
23:45:53 <elliott> pikhq: Do you mean "automatically finding out how to compile a program on this system" or "user configuration of software compilation and features"?
23:46:08 <elliott> pikhq: Well, let's put it this way... on Unix, you can pretty much rely on pkg-config.
23:46:15 <pikhq> Though fortunately it's gotten a lot better, courtesy of pkg-config.
23:46:20 <elliott> Sure, zlib and some other things don't have common pkg-config entries yet, but 90 percent of the time...
23:46:30 <pikhq> And the homogenisation of Unix.
23:46:57 <elliott> pikhq: As far as C compilers go, I'd just try a short fixed list of compilers (say, cc gcc clang tcc pcc) or whatever.
23:47:13 -!- cheater00 has joined.
23:47:19 <elliott> Really, the vast majority of what autoconf does is busywork these days, for all common systems.
23:47:34 <elliott> And with uncommon systems, for most programs, it's perfectly OK if the user just has to say "oh, my CC is called wrt-og-cc".
23:47:39 <pikhq> You can at least do "cc foo.c bar.c -o foo `pkg-config --cflags --libs foo bar baz`" and you're 3/4ths there.
23:47:41 <elliott> (For programs that require tons of libraries and shit, this is less acceptable.)
23:48:54 <pikhq> You are definitely right that autoconf has gotten to be a lot of overkill.
23:49:17 <elliott> Mind you, I doubt you've ever compiled anything on HP-UX, and I bet Gregor has :P
23:49:34 <pikhq> I mean, how often are you going to be building on a system that doesn't have a reasonable chunk of POSIX?
23:49:39 <elliott> But surely even HP-UX has pkg-config now [WISHFUL THINKING]
23:49:50 <elliott> pikhq: tup runs on Windows. :p
23:49:55 <pikhq> Oh, right, the *other* platform.
23:50:02 <Yahweasel> elliott: I doubt that it ships with it, but it might.
23:50:21 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:50:41 <pikhq> Yahweasel: Well, it is used by just about every notable library past libc and zlib. :P
23:50:47 <elliott> ?bf +++++what is a caret++++++++++.
23:50:49 <elliott> ?bf +++++what is a caret++++++++++++.
23:51:10 <fungot> `1234567890-=~!@#$%^&*()_+
23:51:14 <elliott> i actually meant the digit one
23:51:14 <Yahweasel> pikhq: HP-UX isn't big on having notable libraries in it :P
23:51:16 <elliott> but that works too thank you :D
23:51:29 <pikhq> Yahweasel: Does it have GTK?
23:51:53 <pikhq> It may not have zlib. :P
23:52:27 <Yahweasel> Note that I haven't used HP-UX in a good long while, so it's possible (read: highly unlikely) that it's improved.
23:52:34 <pikhq> ... Wait, HP-UX is still *maintained*? What. The. Fuck.
23:52:36 <Sgeo_> elliott, write a bot that doesn't require ^
23:53:06 <pikhq> I though Solaris was the only traditional commercial Unix still around.
23:53:18 <elliott> pikhq: It even supports IPvSixX
23:54:29 <pikhq> Why would *anyone* decide in this day and age to use a proprietary Unix?
23:55:04 <pikhq> Okay, I can kinda get Solaris, though Oracle seems to be wanting to kill that off as well.
23:56:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
23:56:03 <elliott> "Error: Circular dependency found among Tupfiles (last dir ID 13 =
23:56:03 <elliott> [...]At first, this is not madness, I know what I want to do, and it was ok
23:56:04 <elliott> Could TUP be a little more politically correct?"
23:56:14 <pikhq> Okay, HP-UX ships with OpenSSL. It has pkg-config.
23:56:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover what are the haps
23:56:25 <elliott> pikhq: I find that logic wanting.
23:57:04 <pikhq> It damned well better have it. Otherwise it is shipping with software older than elliott. :P
23:57:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Hacked someone's mainframe. Nothing there by the time I was finished with it
23:57:22 <elliott> pikhq: Uhh, it could just use OpenSSL but not install the pkg-config files.
23:57:30 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, fuck, it could.
23:57:50 <elliott> After all, autoconf-based stuff still works without pkg-config files.
23:57:51 <Yahweasel> Or it could install the pkg-config files but not pkg-config itself :P
23:57:54 <elliott> And that is all the stuffs.
23:58:55 <pikhq> elliott: Actually, only checking with pkg-config is the preferred way of doing autoconf checks for libraries now, I thought.
23:59:20 <elliott> Well, preferred autoconf practice X= done autoconf practice.
23:59:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:00:54 <pikhq> Done autoconf practice is even worse.
00:01:02 <elliott> Does it do pkg-config by default or do you have to tell it to? :)
00:01:12 <pikhq> You have to tell it to.
00:01:28 <pikhq> But the alternative is actually manually writing a check for the library.
00:02:05 <elliott> AC_CHECK_LIB(gmp, __gmpz_mul_si, ,
00:02:06 <elliott> [GNU MP not found, or not 3.1 or up, see http://gmplib.org/])])
00:02:12 <elliott> In Fythe's configure.ac, copied by me from gmp's manual.
00:02:17 <elliott> AC_CHECK_LIB([pcre], [pcre_compile], , [AC_MSG_ERROR([pcre is required])])
00:02:18 <elliott> AC_CHECK_LIB([m], [read]) # Can't use something better because it'll be a builtin in GCC
00:02:20 <elliott> Presumably written by Gregor.
00:02:50 <elliott> pikhq: Conclusion: Yeah, nobody uses the pkg-config stuff :P
00:03:54 <Yahweasel> elliott: GMP doesn't have a pkg-config entry. pcre does, I should probably be using it.
00:04:05 <pikhq> libm of course doesn't.
00:04:15 <elliott> Yahweasel: And GMP is a popular library, it _should_ have a pkg-config entry.
00:04:27 <elliott> mcmap used pkg-config for zlib, until it transpired that Ubuntu lacked such a file, while mine and fizzie's distros didn't.
00:04:30 <elliott> So we had to change to -lz.
00:04:40 <elliott> tl;dr pkg-config is a clusterfuck right now because several important libraries don't work.
00:04:58 <pikhq> elliott: I don't think GNU junk is on the bandwagon yet.
00:05:06 <pikhq> Outside of the GNOME stack.
00:05:25 <elliott> I presume the pkg-config files are just newer than Ubuntu's version.
00:05:31 <elliott> But still, pkg-config has been around for ages.
00:05:38 <elliott> That zlib isn't usable with it yet is... crazy.
00:05:58 <pikhq> 5 years since first release.
00:06:19 <elliott> This is computing. That's a decade.
00:06:50 <elliott> Man. pkg-config only came out in two thousand and six?
00:07:23 <pikhq> zlib has had 2 releases since then.
00:07:30 <elliott> http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/openbsd/2005-11/1922.html
00:07:30 <elliott> http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2009-January/071851.html
00:07:35 <elliott> Apparently pkg-config is broken :P
00:08:59 <pikhq> elliott: "Someone was overzealous on the pkg-config file ITS BROKEN!"
00:09:09 <pikhq> Besides which, -Wl,--as-needed would catch that.
00:09:10 <elliott> Latter is from maintainer of Wine, though.
00:09:27 <pikhq> (and that is increasingly the default on distros)
00:09:37 <elliott> Admittedly someone who has such in-depth knowledge of the Windows API is probably not entirely sane...
00:09:50 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:12:00 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
00:14:44 <elliott> "There are hundreds of third parties in this country. But only one has ever helped elect George W. Bush."
00:14:46 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:15:23 <Sgeo_> My left ear is working again!
00:15:24 <elliott> "Fact is, the 2000 election results in florida is the undeniable trump card for why voting for a thirtd party in a close election is moronic."
00:18:27 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:20:02 <pikhq_> elliott: Funny, I could've *sworn* the 2000 election results in Florida just demonstrates that the Supreme Court has ceased to be a neutral institution, and instead votes for What The Party Wants.
00:20:26 <elliott> pikhq_: Also, y'know, your voting system is fucking retarded and inherently quickly collapses into a two-party shitfest.
00:20:39 <oerjan> <elliott> finally I know who to blame for making zippers get stuck so much
00:21:07 <oerjan> well my impression from the reddit discussion was that their monopoly is well-deserved
00:21:12 <pikhq_> Yup, our voting system seems almost *designed* for a two-party shitfest.
00:21:16 <elliott> THEY STILL GET STUCK ALL THE TIME OERJAN
00:21:55 <oerjan> yeah i have this jacket that i need to be very careful with lest the zipper divide
00:24:09 <oerjan> <elliott> i can do lambdabot
00:24:20 <olsner> zippers normally divide, that's what they're there for
00:24:31 <oerjan> olsner: i mean when i'm trying to join it
00:24:59 <elliott> functional programming zippers...
00:25:10 <olsner> nope, just a normal one
00:25:51 <oerjan> elliott: i think > is easier. do you still have this problem?
00:26:00 <elliott> oerjan: yes. but actually ? is possible.
00:26:45 <fungot> `1234567890-=~!@#$%^&*()_+
00:27:01 <oerjan> @let nr = "`1234567890-=~!@#$%^&*()_+"
00:27:53 <elliott> @let nr = text "`1234567890-=\n~!@#$%^&*()_+"
00:28:05 <oerjan> anyone can wipe it out though
00:28:25 <elliott> @let nr = text "`1234567890-=\n~!@#$%^&*()_+"
00:28:59 <elliott> @let nr = text "`1234567890-=\n~!@#$%^&*()_+"
00:29:51 <oerjan> @let nr = text "`1234567890-=\n~!@#$%^&*()_+"
00:30:07 <oerjan> sadly @undefined still works on an all-or-nothing basis, it seems
00:31:36 <oerjan> and that of course increases the risk that someone else wipes it out
00:34:04 <oerjan> hm glogbot doesn't show my previous quit message
00:35:29 <elliott> glogbot is bad at quit and nick
00:35:48 <oerjan> it _usually_ does, i mean this time
00:38:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:50:26 <elliott> comex: do you have that Suber quote on nomic software having to keep up with the rules?
00:50:59 * oerjan recalls that was a problem with Nomic World
00:51:08 <elliott> oerjan: indeed. that may have even inspired the quote.
00:51:34 <elliott> oerjan: "The problem with email-oriented nomics is that someone needs to take
00:51:35 <elliott> the task of managing things manually... vote tallying, ruleset
00:51:35 <elliott> updating, etc. I'd be up for playing that way so long as someone else
00:51:35 <elliott> takes on the administrative tasks."
00:51:38 <elliott> basically I'm trying to respond to this
00:51:46 <elliott> the nomic in question is Nomicron, which does pretty much everything with a hard-coded site
00:51:55 <elliott> which is a strong disincentive for me to play it
00:52:44 <oerjan> i thought somehow this might be part of the inspiration for code nomics like schemenomic and perlnomic
00:53:11 <oerjan> then how to make the implementation becomes part of the game
00:53:45 <elliott> Heh, oerjan has a nomicwiki article.
00:53:50 <elliott> (Found when googling schemenomic.)
00:53:53 <elliott> Although NomicWiki is offline.
00:54:12 <elliott> And it's not cached anywhere, oh the humanityX
00:54:40 <elliott> oerjan: Could I coerce you into playing Normish Two? :)
00:54:59 <elliott> oerjan: Could I get you to play Normish Two if I threatened you with knives?
00:55:12 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:55:20 <elliott> oerjan: What if I threatened you with immortality?X?X?X?XX
00:55:58 <oerjan> ...that would require me to believe you could pull off the threat
00:56:06 <zzo38> Does this good?? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/texify/texify.htm
00:56:27 <elliott> oerjan: I could commit to making a certain large donation to SIAI every regular interval...
00:56:36 <elliott> Unfortunately the post-Singularity immortality would be perfectly optional.
00:57:03 <elliott> oerjan: Can we just assume I'm smart enough to find a way to make tangible efforts to cause you to become unstoppably immortal, and go from there?
00:57:29 <elliott> oerjan: I SENSE I AM PISSING YOU OFF
00:57:43 <zzo38> What is SIAI means?
00:57:45 <oerjan> it's an uncomfortable subject.
00:57:59 <elliott> zzo38: http://singinst.org/
00:58:04 <elliott> oerjan: What, playing Normish?
00:59:24 <elliott> OERJAN HAS NOW CEASED TO REPLY TO ME
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01:00:07 <elliott> oerjan: YOU WERE USING CURT REPLIES RIGHT FROM THE FIRST MENTION OF NORMISH, YOU LIAR
01:00:24 <oerjan> ...that was not from being pissed off
01:00:59 <zzo38> Stop cheating please.
01:01:23 <elliott> oerjan: But with NORMISH, you could have THE LATEST VERSION OF GHC, on a LINUX hostXXX
01:01:48 <oerjan> normish is a haskell nomic?
01:02:30 <zzo38> myndzi: It is lined up this time. But I don't know if it is on everyone's computer, because there are many kind of formats used
01:02:45 <elliott> it basically has multiple personality disorder, on one hand it's a shell account provider ran semi-democratically via a nomic
01:02:52 <elliott> and on the other hand, it's a codenomic where the code is Unix
01:03:19 <elliott> Normish One petered off due to failing to have much interesting going on, but I've taken the initiative to try and revive it But Better.
01:03:31 <elliott> petered off. is that the right spelling?
01:03:49 * oerjan is reminded to download the latest haskell platform
01:03:58 <elliott> oerjan: oh, and Normish Two is also meant to act as a host for _other_ codenomics
01:04:08 <elliott> e.g. perlnomic, smallnomic
01:06:19 <elliott> oerjan: And, er, er, er, DID I MENTION LATEST GHC WITH USER-LOCAL CABAL INSTALL
01:09:28 <oerjan> the haskell platform installer has this weird ability _not_ to show up in the taskbar...
01:09:42 <elliott> oerjan: not a problem with NORMISHXXX
01:10:29 <oerjan> also, completely misinterpreting what motivates me _does_ piss me off. a bit.
01:10:56 <elliott> oerjan: I think you are failing to understand: a joke?
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01:11:12 <elliott> Unless you're saying that merely asking whether I could convince you to join Normish was a complete misinterpretation :P
01:11:30 <elliott> Or unless you just can somehow resist the promise of sweet, sweet GHC.
01:12:21 <oerjan> ...i'm a bit pissed off to start, actually. damn stiff neck.
01:12:36 <elliott> LOGIC DEFEATS YET ANOTHER FOE
01:12:41 <elliott> BY DEFEATS I MEAN SHIFTS THE BLAME TO PHYSICAL MATTERS
01:13:03 <elliott> ...a Haskell nomic is temting me at this point
01:13:11 <oerjan> yes, i hate the physical universe. why do you ask?
01:13:26 <elliott> oerjan: well that's okay, because when all our minds are uploaded...
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01:13:37 * elliott observes as oerjan continually walks into trap
01:14:04 <oerjan> ...but i feel like i already fell into one
01:14:17 <elliott> you did. it's a fractal trap.
01:14:27 <elliott> it starts with immortality, then nests into mind uploading.
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01:15:22 <zzo38> OUCH OUCHOUCH OUCHOUCHOUCH OUCHOUCHOUCHOUCH
01:15:36 <elliott> oerjan sure is pissier than usual lately
01:15:45 <elliott> or maybe i'm just more annoying :)
01:21:50 <zzo38> Maybe you need to fix your computer please.
01:22:02 <zzo38> If, you did not fix it yet.
01:22:02 <elliott> why are you so concerned whether i fix my computer or not
01:23:08 <Sgeo_> "Installing Task-Manager you can read fast..."
01:23:19 <elliott> Sgeo_: already commented on BRO
01:25:35 <Sgeo_> elliott, I like blind LPs on YouTube. This is not blind
01:25:47 <elliott> Sgeo_: You don't know what it's going to be like.
01:26:16 <elliott> Have you read that Animal Crossing LP?
01:26:20 <Sgeo_> Agent Rankings isn't just the user's previous playthroughs?
01:28:16 <elliott> Sgeo_: (I was referring to The Terrible Secret of Animal Crossing.)
01:31:38 * Sgeo_ puts on the blue valley
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01:37:48 <Sgeo_> I think I've read this before
01:37:51 <Sgeo_> This seems familiar
01:54:07 <elliott> tswett: Do you have that Suber quote on software having to keep up with a nomic's ruleset?
01:57:51 <tswett> Well, it is the time of sleep.
01:59:06 <elliott> tswett: You said you only respond "excellent".
01:59:12 <elliott> You are responding with non-excellent.
01:59:58 <tswett> Well, it is the time of sleep.
02:19:11 <Sgeo_> Suddenly, I want to read the Uplink data files
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02:36:17 <oerjan> elliott: it looks like your <{{{1}}}> template idea doesn't work
02:37:15 <oerjan> ...i guess it couldn't, since it could be used to evade bans on tags for other purposes than anti-spam...
02:37:27 <oerjan> just come to think of it
02:38:39 <oerjan> i guess that depends on _where_ the ban is implemented, hm.
02:43:04 <oerjan> {{subst:tag|div style="{{{1}}}"}}{{{2}}}{{subst:tag|/div}}
02:43:17 <oerjan> <{{{1}}}>{{{2}}}</div>
02:44:07 <oerjan> and also as final page result
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02:50:08 <oerjan> elliott: oh it works without the style="{{{1}}}" part...
02:51:43 <elliott> oerjan: what if you just do
02:51:52 <elliott> {{tag|div style="color:red"}}test{{tag:/div}}
02:51:52 <oerjan> but of course i cannot edit the result to include the style part afterward :(
02:52:25 <oerjan> um i tried without subst first and i thought it didn't work. hm let's see.
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02:54:38 <zzo38> I did managed to find a way to enter a <DIV> tag into a page on the wiki.
02:55:04 <zzo38> But then it fails to save, you have to remove it before it will save a copy.
02:55:21 <zzo38> I used the raw signature feature.
02:55:37 <oerjan> zzo38: um that's obviously not what we try to do...
02:56:03 <oerjan> um or do you mean there is something _else_ that removes div's other than the failure to save...
02:57:34 <zzo38> No, it is based on what data the server receives from the client, only.
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02:58:06 <oerjan> well that still doesn't explain why i cannot get it to work with ... hm
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02:59:51 <oerjan> elliott: i got closer again, but without subst the <div> gets converted to text, again
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03:01:48 <oerjan> dammit {{subst:tag|div {{{1}}}}}{{{2}}}{{subst:tag|/div}}
03:02:16 <oerjan> somehow doesn't work when i actually _use_ it :(
03:04:30 <oerjan> elliott: Template:div now contains <div {{{1}}}>{{{2}}}</div>
03:04:48 <oerjan> but that somehow doesn't get properly transcluded
03:07:25 <oerjan> elliott: i think my problem might be that wp template syntax uses attrib=value for its own purposes
03:08:46 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of chess game? http://play.chessvariants.org/pbm/play.php?game=123456+Chess&log=nwolff-cvgameroom-2011-95-172&submit=Print
03:09:17 <Sgeo_> elliott, why was I under the impression that the bonus CD had Uplink's source coe?
03:09:30 * Sgeo_ legally obtains the CD
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03:12:05 <oerjan> {{div|1=style="color:red"|2=test}}
03:12:34 <zzo38> OK, now it is good.
03:12:50 <zzo38> (Still, I think <DIV> is not needed much, but at least now you figured it out, in case you do need it.)
03:13:40 <zzo38> You can use style= with other HTML tags, too (see the DottyWeb templates).
03:17:41 <zzo38> Black player has already lost the king's bishop's pawn
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03:21:18 <zzo38> Here is such a completed game, using the same rules: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/chesslog/1.htm
03:23:36 <zzo38> I can see five ways in which the black player can get out of check, in the final position, but none of them seem to work (which probably is why they resigned).
03:28:22 <zzo38> Do you know this game?
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03:31:16 <Sgeo_> zzo38, what do you think about combos that can give infinite mana, or infinite other resources?
03:33:02 <zzo38> Sgeo_: I prefer Limited rather than Constructed. It might still be possible, but now you have to both draft, and build a deck, and then play, too. As long as you do not too much of such cards that makes it easy in the set, it should not be much of the problem. However, this would work better if mana burn is still used.
03:34:38 <zzo38> Sgeo_: Did you understand what I write? Or, did I do it wrong?
03:35:39 <Sgeo_> I don't understand how mana burn avoids the possibility of infinite mana. My understanding is that you can make only as much as you need for whatever you want anyway
03:35:52 <Sgeo_> But yeah, if you prefer non-Constructed, that could get in the way
03:37:24 <zzo38> It does not avoid the possibility, but in some cases mana burn will make it more difficult, depending on what kind of combos, and stuff like that. Once, I was watching a game, someone had a card they played a land already, got sixteen mana (from one land), played a card, the next card in their library was Island (they have the one making you reveal it all the time), so they lost due to mana burn.
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03:40:18 <zzo38> In some combos, it is true you only have the amount you need. But some such combos might not work that way. Especially if opponent has a enchantment that makes cards produce more mana than it is, they can play it on your cards, or global to affect both player's cards, then you might become mana burned.
03:42:51 <zzo38> This is what I mean.
03:50:29 <pikhq> SCREW YOU PROCRASTINATION
03:55:09 <elliott> <oerjan> {{div|1=style="color:red"|2=test}}
03:55:17 <pikhq> Ohai. I am busy not working on something I should be.
03:55:29 <elliott> pikhq: Tupising something? :P
03:55:49 <elliott> oerjan: is there no way to generalise div to arbitrary tags?
03:56:05 <elliott> I would prefer {{tag|div|one=...|...}}
03:56:52 <pikhq> elliott: Nope, just redditing.
03:58:54 <elliott> oerjan: Also, do you mind if I make it {{span|attrs=...|text=...}}?
03:59:04 <elliott> In fact... you don't need the one=.
03:59:09 <elliott> {{span|=attrib="value"|foo}} should work.
03:59:58 <pikhq> So, is oerjan working on a replacement for our "favorite" markup language or something?
04:00:08 <elliott> oerjan working on something practical?
04:00:11 <elliott> hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
04:00:18 <elliott> no, we're just circumventing the wiki's spam protection
04:00:34 <pikhq> Hey, he worked on... That thing. With the thing.
04:09:25 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, AFAICT autoconf is essentially a really ugly expert system.
04:09:33 <elliott> (OK, so just about EVERYTHING is an expert system, but still.)
04:10:32 <elliott> pikhq: You want: "A C99 compiler, and the libraries zlib and libpng", and you would prefer "Medium optimisation and debugging info"; and the software knows how to try and find a piece of software on a wide variety of system configurations.
04:10:59 <elliott> From this, it figures out how to compile your program as close to the way you and the user (CC variable etc.) want it as possible.
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04:21:46 <Sgeo_> elliott, Uplink conduct: Never use InterNIC
04:21:57 <elliott> Uplink conduct: Never use proxies. Ever.
04:22:17 <elliott> Uplink conduct: Don't erase your tracks, just complete the game before anyone traces you.
04:23:01 * Sgeo_ is seriously wondering if it's possible to play without InterNIC
04:23:18 <Sgeo_> Would some organization necessarily know that its logs were hacked into?
04:23:18 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, that sounds like what autoconf is trying to do.
04:23:46 <elliott> pikhq: So it just has to be made MOAR GENERIC
04:24:04 <pikhq> elliott: Oh dear God no, it is far too generic.
04:24:12 <pikhq> elliott: It's a fucking shell script generator.
04:24:15 <zzo38> I used LodePNG in my own program due to simplicity, instead of libpng. LodePNG is a single file, if compiled by a C compiler it will use C mode fine, but it can also be compiled with a C++ compiler to use the object-oriented features of C++ (but I just use the C mode).
04:24:15 <elliott> pikhq: No, I mean in a way that actually _reduces_ the complexity.
04:24:19 <elliott> pikhq: "(goal, knowledge) -> solution" is pretty much the definition of an expert system, so...
04:24:36 <elliott> pikhq: You can easily factor out the "knowledge" into a bunch of system-specific files.
04:24:38 <pikhq> zzo38: libpng in and of itself isn't very complex.
04:24:56 <elliott> So the "generic Unix" module would try "cc", "gcc", etc. in turn to find a C99 compiler.
04:25:14 <elliott> And try pkg-config if it's there, or look in /lib, /usr/lib, ... to find a library, or just use the C compiler's -l.
04:25:33 <pikhq> elliott: Interesting idea.
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04:25:46 <pikhq> elliott: Though that is actually a bit more specific than autoconf.
04:25:52 <elliott> pikhq: It's pretty much autoconf if it didn't HARDCODE EVERY DAMN STEP :P
04:26:03 <elliott> And howso? What the actual things to find are, are just abstract symbols.
04:26:07 <pikhq> elliott: Autoconf is literally a set of autoconf macros.
04:26:29 <pikhq> Macros to generate a shell script.
04:26:36 <elliott> You want X (say X is "a C99 compiler"). The things loaded for your system (which is determined by another set of this stuff) have a list of things to try to get an X, in order of preference.
04:26:41 <zzo38> pikhq: I used LodePNG simply because I can include it with my program, for one thing.
04:26:43 <elliott> When they find them, they return a generic X.
04:26:48 <elliott> So it just unifies the interfaces.
04:26:54 <pikhq> zzo38: I don't think you can't with libpng.
04:27:33 <pikhq> zzo38: Small handful of files, permissive license, only dependency is zlib.
04:27:48 <pikhq> ... And, of course, sane C compiler/C library.
04:28:54 <zzo38> Yes, libpng depends on zlib. LodePNG has no dependencies other than C standard library.
04:29:13 <elliott> pikhq: [talking to a brick wall]
04:29:32 <zzo38> Still, I am not saying don't use libpng. Is just that I didn't use it.
04:29:32 <pikhq> LodePNG probably copy-pasted the zlib code.
04:29:44 <Sgeo_> Ok, this Uplink LP video just referenced both DS9 and Death Note
04:29:52 <Sgeo_> And the guy's name seems to be Seth
04:30:00 <pikhq> I mean, to get PNG working you *need* to support the algorithm.
04:30:39 <pikhq> Not that there's much point. zlib is ubiquitous.
04:30:46 <zzo38> Yes, it does include the algorithm. But there is only two files: "lodepng.c" (or "lodepng.cpp") and "lodepng.h".
04:31:42 <pikhq> ... As is libpng, for that matter.
04:31:44 <zzo38> The documentation for libpng happens to have the wrong URL for zlib.
04:32:05 <pikhq> elliott: Oh, thanks.
04:32:10 * pikhq throws a brick at zzo38.
04:32:11 <zzo38> Maybe submit the report and then they can correct it please.
04:32:53 <oerjan> <elliott> I would prefer {{tag|div|one=...|...}} <-- it seemed like the subst: step is essential to prevent the tag from ending up as inert text...
04:33:09 <elliott> oerjan: well i made the interface slightly less ugly
04:33:21 <elliott> or if you have nested template applications (dunno why this needs this)
04:33:28 <elliott> _ because you end up doing
04:33:31 <elliott> attrs=style="foo" otherwise
04:33:55 <elliott> oerjan: anyway, you're a hero of our time. like Obama and Bob the Builder, you have told us that yes we can.
04:34:01 <oerjan> <elliott> {{span|=attrib="value"|foo}} should work. <-- well it didn't work when they were numbered 1 and 2, but maybe if the last is no. 1 it will.
04:34:20 <elliott> oerjan: hnnnng i'm replying to you fucker
04:35:14 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, but Bob the Builder actually came through on that claim.
04:35:23 <oerjan> elliott: actually i was just wondering if it is necessary to include the ...</div> part in the template at all
04:35:33 <pikhq> "Yes we can! ... Keep the war going!"
04:35:35 <elliott> let's give bob the builder a nobel peace prize
04:35:49 <pikhq> Definitely done more for world peace.
04:36:00 <elliott> oerjan: as opposed to a {{/div}} template?
04:36:10 <elliott> yes, that would be far preferable. shall i do that?
04:36:16 <pikhq> Of course, so's the shit I took an hour ago.
04:37:39 <elliott> pikhq: ps i was hating on obama before it was cool :ANTI-AMERICAN HIPSTER:
04:37:46 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: hnnnng i'm replying to you fucker <-- i am the master of the backscroll *MWAHAHAHA*
04:38:10 <elliott> oh my god ten minutes of masochistic geek porn
04:38:16 <elliott> being updated from the first vesrion
04:38:35 <pikhq> elliott: To be perfectly fair, I was never a giant Obama fan.
04:38:46 <elliott> pikhq: you should have seen reddit at the time. maybe you did
04:38:56 <elliott> "WE LOVE RON PAUL OMG OMG" [Ron Paul gets kicked out of the race]
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04:39:43 <pikhq> elliott: I felt that Obama was the best reasonably likely choice for President by the election, though.
04:39:45 <elliott> he installed monkey island
04:39:48 <elliott> everyone must watch this video
04:39:53 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPnehDhGa14
04:40:06 <pikhq> Of course, then again, the alternative was fucking *McCain* and Sarah Derplin.
04:40:15 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: as opposed to a {{/div}} template? <-- well is </div> itself actually blocked?
04:40:45 <elliott> pikhq: Honestly, voting in the US is a complete waste of time. (And it's not saying things like that that causes Republicans to get elected, it's your voting system.)
04:40:56 <elliott> oerjan: still, a {{/div}} tag would be nice for symmetry
04:41:00 <elliott> oerjan: ok, I'll migrate the templates over
04:41:05 <elliott> pikhq: you should watch <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPnehDhGa14
04:41:17 <oerjan> <elliott> yes, that would be far preferable. shall i do that? <-- assuming it actually works.
04:41:19 <pikhq> elliott: Quite honestly, the main reason I vote is for local and state affairs.
04:41:35 <elliott> pikhq: right. i mean at the presidential level
04:41:42 <zzo38> http://libpng.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=libpng/libpng;a=tree Many files and more than I require. For programs that need this complexity, good, let's use libpng. It has complicated makefiles and stuff. Why can't you just use the C compiler??? It is because GNU makes programs only in one size: extra-large. But at least is good they make license, you can use with other programs, too.
04:41:54 <pikhq> Yeah, I just vote there because I already have the ballot.
04:42:06 <elliott> zzo38: LIBPNG IS NOT A GNU PROJECT
04:42:28 <pikhq> (the elections are all on the same ballot)
04:42:48 <zzo38> elliott: I know, but GNU Autoconf is. (So is GCC, but you can use GCC without Autoconf)
04:42:54 <pikhq> zzo38: You do realise that concatenating files together doesn't make a simpler library, right? :P
04:42:56 <elliott> pikhq: You should write in JESUS
04:43:20 <pikhq> elliott: I do strategic voting on that.
04:43:47 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes I realize that.
04:43:52 <elliott> pikhq: Honestly, it's not like you're much less fucked with the Dems :P
04:44:08 <elliott> Actually you guys should elect some really, really terrible right-wing third-party, just to cause a meltdown.
04:44:15 <pikhq> elliott: If someone fucking crazy has a chance of winning, and someone who's not as crazy also has a chance of winning, I vote for the less crazy.
04:44:36 <pikhq> elliott: Otherwise, I vote for someone who's actually good.
04:45:00 <pikhq> The damned voting system forces me into that.
04:45:16 <elliott> Yeah, and if you continue to bend over and take it, it'll do so forever.
04:45:37 <elliott> On the other hand, your options for revolution are really limited, because the main force in that area is the motherfucking Tea Party, and your country is unreasonably gigantic.
04:46:18 <oerjan> in other news (olds?), hitting the wiki's spam filter is really annoying since the back button frequently tends to wipe out what you were writing
04:46:42 <elliott> oerjan: that's an IE thing
04:46:47 <elliott> no other browsers have that problem
04:47:00 <elliott> <div style="border: 9px solid blue; padding: 9px; background: yellow; color: red; text-align: center"></div>
04:47:00 <elliott> <p>Oh what a <span style="text-decoration: underline; font-style: italic"></span>
04:47:03 <elliott> ok, well that doesn't work
04:47:13 <pikhq> elliott: Yup, the US system is fucked.
04:47:23 <elliott> oerjan: can you revert the templates to just before "after discussion with oerjan"? :D
04:47:32 <oerjan> i am used to copying the content before saving anyway
04:47:33 <pikhq> elliott: We're pretty much looking at the only change resulting from the whole thing going down in flames.
04:47:46 <pikhq> On the bright side, we seem to be doing just that!
04:48:03 <oerjan> elliott: what went wrong?
04:48:11 <elliott> oerjan: mediawiki balances the html on template inclusion
04:48:34 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Div&curid=3818&diff=22060&oldid=22056
04:48:34 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Span&curid=3819&diff=22059&oldid=22057
04:48:40 <elliott> those are the diffs to revert to if you want to save me the effort :D
04:49:57 <pikhq> In short, I need a drink.
04:50:06 <oerjan> erm that "omit the "text=" " part should be included?
04:50:14 <oerjan> also i still am not an admin, recall
04:50:26 <elliott> press edit, fix the top line, save
04:50:31 <elliott> i've done it fifty times is all ;D
04:52:37 <elliott> oerjan: ok so we have the templates to do it, it's just slightly awkward
04:52:56 <elliott> oerjan: i invite you to take a look at http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Ehird&action=edit and imagine how much I yearned for the ability to use div and span during its creation
04:53:06 <elliott> i as a list item? whyever notX
04:56:06 <zzo38> http://repo.or.cz/w/TeXnicard.git/tree/HEAD:/lodepng This is better file in case of not needed the other programs. Although even this file has things I don't need, too.
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04:57:57 <Vorpal> elliott, still up an about?
04:58:07 <elliott> macrohauler: i remember your name
04:58:15 <Vorpal> elliott, time for Log!
04:58:29 <elliott> macrohauler: yeah i'm that super annoying guy
04:58:32 <Vorpal> elliott, yes. The Log.
04:58:47 <elliott> Vorpal: wait did you just get up?
04:58:59 <macrohauler> elliott: can't recall anyone super annoying, but thanks for the heads up ;)
04:59:00 <Vorpal> arvid=> select tstamp from irc.logs where nick = 'macrohauler' order by tstamp limit 1;
04:59:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I just got up yes
04:59:17 <Vorpal> elliott, it is 06:58 and the sun is up
04:59:26 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah why would you get up so late in the night
04:59:31 <elliott> HOW can you PHYSICALLY get up so late in the night
04:59:48 <Vorpal> macrohauler, yes, and so is elliott (one hour offset from me)
05:00:06 <Vorpal> elliott, I have to. Leaving for university in ~20 minutes.
05:00:11 <macrohauler> it's 06:58 here as well, so vorpal we must be close
05:00:23 <elliott> Vorpal: since when can higher wants override basic physiology?
05:00:47 <oerjan> clearly Vorpal has blown his human cover
05:00:48 <Vorpal> elliott, since quite some time ago
05:00:51 <elliott> macrohauler: Vorpal is in the immoral, atheistic, primitive country known as "Sverige"
05:00:53 <zzo38> Even, sometimes I can get up in the night, but, not always.
05:01:05 <macrohauler> Vorpal: kunde fan tänka mig att du också kom från sverige ;)
05:01:26 <Vorpal> so how many are we up in?
05:01:28 <zzo38> So, it is physically possible, of course.
05:01:33 * oerjan gives elliott some factor 4 swede protection cream
05:01:44 <zzo38> I am not capable to do impossible things, nor is anyone else.
05:01:59 <Vorpal> me, macrohauler, olsner, FireFly, BeholdMyGlory. Did I miss anyone?
05:02:08 <elliott> DON'T TELL HIM ABOUT THE SECRET SWEDES
05:02:08 <Vorpal> And how many Norwegians? Just oerjan right?
05:02:20 <zzo38> Maybe you missed ONAFlalWMRklalckkmm
05:02:46 <Vorpal> zzo38, never heard of that guy/gal before
05:03:05 <macrohauler> Vorpal: you don't happen to live in malmö?
05:03:06 <elliott> te's an intra-dimensional alien from outra space.
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05:03:12 <elliott> that's that place with all the crazy people
05:03:15 <elliott> i believe Vorpal told me that
05:03:35 <elliott> NOT THE VICIOUS HELLHOLE KNOWN AS MALMÖ
05:04:04 <elliott> I hear Vorpal lives at the North Pole confirm/deny
05:04:08 <Vorpal> macrohauler, well... Did you read the news the past few years? Rosengård and so on...
05:04:25 <elliott> It has also been the scene of regular clashes between youth and police.[3] Fire crews have also been threatened and attacked by local youth. As a result, the Malmö Fire Department refuses to respond to fire calls in Rosengård without police escort.[4]
05:04:35 <Vorpal> elliott, deny. I'm not Santa. If I were you wouldn't have gotten xmas presents last year.
05:04:38 <elliott> like i said. a vicious and primitive country.
05:04:44 <elliott> Vorpal: Santa lives at the South Pole idiot
05:04:53 <elliott> what do you think that ""scientific station"" really is
05:05:07 <macrohauler> Vorpal: i live in malmö, i know all about the places, but tbh, the media love to make it seems worse than it really is
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05:05:21 <Vorpal> macrohauler, nothing new *there*
05:05:24 <oerjan> no the one at the south pole is the blue santa, his evil twin brother
05:05:41 <elliott> , macrohauler said, fighting off the gang of immigrants on top of a burning tower
05:05:43 <zzo38> Vorpal: No, someone else would have given the presents if it isn't you.
05:05:58 <zzo38> In case you were Santa, someone else can instead, maybe?
05:06:25 <elliott> i hope zzo38 never leaves us.
05:06:50 <Vorpal> elliott, yes. We have way more priceless moments this way. Which is good for the economy.
05:06:59 <elliott> for everything else there's mastercard
05:07:08 <elliott> cue zzo38 telling us he doesn't own a credit card
05:07:29 <elliott> http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=for+everything+else+there's+mastercard
05:07:50 <oerjan> elliott: oh hm. the separate </div> scheme didn't happen to work when you weren't using a template for </div>, did it?
05:07:55 <zzo38> elliott: Correct, I do not own a credit card.
05:08:12 <elliott> oerjan: i didn't test, but that would be absolutely perverse if it did work like that
05:08:17 <elliott> oerjan: I think it expands it as its own markup thing, so to speak
05:08:18 <Vorpal> actually nor do I. I have a debit card instead. *shrug*
05:09:05 <zzo38> Vorpal: But I have no debit card either. I prefer to work in cash.
05:09:34 <elliott> ...which is of course utterly pointless
05:09:41 <oerjan> elliott: for one thing, you didn't use subst: with </div> so it might have triggered the same problem i had with using {{tag without subst: ...
05:10:11 <elliott> oerjan: well, feel free to test it, i suggest you create userspace templates if you do :)
05:10:12 <Vorpal> elliott, impractical around here. City buses only take commuter card or card.
05:10:29 <Vorpal> they take commuter card thingies, and they take credit/debit cards
05:12:40 <oerjan> elliott: do those go under User: or under Template: ?
05:12:44 <zzo38> It seems even referer tag can cause spam filter to be activated, even refering within the same one!
05:12:47 <elliott> pikhq: I bet you could get most of what autoconf does in... let's be ultra-conservative, two thousand lines of pure shell script.
05:13:10 <elliott> pikhq: That includes basic "C99 compiler" and "pkg-config library" solution-finders.
05:13:53 <pikhq> elliott: You could probably get the sane bits of what autoconf does in that.
05:14:07 <Vorpal> elliott, too low m4 quota in your suggestion. Not messy enough.
05:14:08 <macrohauler> oh btw, if you're interested i'd like some feedback on a new language i'm working on :3
05:14:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, but will it work on hugely outdated DS9K systems?
05:14:43 <pikhq> Vorpal: No, and nor will a lot of the code I write.
05:14:58 <Vorpal> anyway, bbl, university
05:14:59 <pikhq> I do not write non-C99 C.
05:15:14 <zzo38> macrohauler: Can you type what it is? What is it?
05:15:19 <pikhq> (modulo failures on my part, of course)
05:16:30 <elliott> why does your interpreter start using forty-four megabytes then climb insanely quickly
05:16:49 <elliott> also, I'd write a non-AS interpreter if I were you, there's a significant portion of people here who won't use Flash :
05:16:54 <macrohauler> tbh, it's the browsers memory combined with the flash players
05:17:05 <elliott> macrohauler: weird that it's so leaky though
05:17:06 <macrohauler> why it rises so quickly, i've not put any time into figuring out yet
05:17:13 <elliott> pikhq: Bleh, I'll write tupconf, it's inevitable :P
05:17:17 <macrohauler> yeh, i'll fix it in the near to distant future
05:17:29 <elliott> pikhq: I dunno if I should waste my time by writing it in shell, but there's little else so portable.
05:17:36 <macrohauler> and yeh, when i get time, i will def write a non-as interpreter
05:17:43 <pikhq> There's a number of bugs in Flash's garbage collector.
05:17:55 <pikhq> For instance, any sufficiently large allocation will never be collected.
05:18:19 <elliott> ugh, programming is hard without numbers
05:18:25 <elliott> does anyone have a simple way to map f keys to their numbers? :)
05:19:07 <pikhq> elliott: Well, xmodmap should be able to do it. Probably a pain, though.
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05:20:36 <elliott> http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/53b/making_beliefs_pay_rent_in_anticipated/ ;; this is the funniest post ever
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05:25:28 <oerjan> elliott: it seems that using transclusion rather than substitution is precisely what causes the html to be matched up :(
05:25:43 <elliott> oerjan: oh well, it's still workable, this stuff will never be convenient
05:25:55 <elliott> oerjan: honestly, I would prefer the spam filter be turned off for autoconfirmed users
05:26:30 <oerjan> that _would_ be annoying for anonymous ip's editing already existing pages, though
05:26:44 <elliott> oerjan: less annoying than this
05:27:10 <elliott> surprisingly i managed to do the new main page without any _totally_ gross tag abuse.
05:27:55 * oerjan suddenly gets the evil idea of putting <div> tags on purpose to spam protect pages...
05:28:33 <oerjan> it will not work against those that replace the _whole_ page, but it should work against those section adding ones
05:28:39 <elliott> pikhq: Arrays aren't even portable sh, are they?
05:28:49 <elliott> oerjan: not if they use the "+" link
05:30:55 <elliott> oerjan: btw you mentioned melatonin a while ago. i can confirm it works excellently for putting you to sleep for good amounts of time. i tend to wake up slightly tired, but I think I'm just taking a bit too much. the real issue is making myself take it :D
05:31:18 <elliott> but then with me it's just strong going-to-bed akrasia
05:31:32 <oerjan> <elliott> does anyone have a simple way to map f keys to their numbers? :) <-- your laptop doesn't have a "use Fn to get numpad at jkluio789" feature like mine? i guess that doesn't help with the latter 3...
05:31:45 <elliott> they removed that from recent models.
05:32:31 <oerjan> oh hm i'm confused the Fn is just to start numlock
05:32:50 <pikhq> elliott: ... They actually may well be a GNUism.
05:33:15 <pikhq> Actually, more likely a Kornism that bash adopted than anything else.
05:37:31 <pikhq> Apparently each individual neuron peaks at about 200Hz.
05:38:00 <pikhq> So, the human brain is.... Several billion ~100Hz processors in parallel?
05:38:23 <pikhq> No wonder the brain is both awesome and terrible at stuff.
05:38:54 <coppro> less of "processors" and more of "complicated logic gates"
05:38:59 <macrohauler> so ultimately an ai is not so impossible after all
05:39:11 <elliott> what bearing does that have on the possibility of an AI?
05:39:34 <macrohauler> i just don't think AI's are an impossibility
05:39:38 <pikhq> macrohauler: Of course an AI is not impossible.
05:39:42 <elliott> I suppose it has some bearing on how easy it is to simulate a human brain, but I think it was already obvious that neurons themselves are pretty underpowered, the problem is that there's billions of the buggers :)
05:40:05 <pikhq> Insofar as we are aware, the entire set of processes in the human body are computable.
05:40:08 <elliott> Neural networks haven't really paid off as far as I can tell.
05:40:13 <elliott> They're good for some things, but for AI? Nah.
05:40:20 <pikhq> Ergo, it would be *possible* to make a Turing machine do it.
05:40:23 <macrohauler> elliott: well, i think they're def the key
05:40:26 <pikhq> Ergo AI is possible.
05:40:29 <elliott> Anything that computes the same things the brain computes is conscious by definition
05:40:51 <pikhq> Note that this completely ignores whether or not we're going to be doing it at all...
05:40:55 <macrohauler> well, aware of them selves? as we're aware we exist, we're human.. the whole "i think therefore i am" thing
05:40:59 <elliott> macrohauler: Neural networks _might_ be useful -- if you're trying to replicate a human brain. But that's only an intermediate goal if anything :)
05:41:02 <coppro> pikhq: I'd wager that there's some quantum effects, but they aren't significant enough to seriously affect the ability to make an humanlike AI
05:41:05 <pikhq> Which is fundamentally a debate over whether engineering will rise to the task.
05:41:05 <elliott> Define aware. Define self.
05:41:17 <elliott> Yes, I'm being obstinate :)
05:41:25 <elliott> But the brain is just a really complicated Turing machine.
05:41:33 <elliott> macrohauler: You're the one who's doing that by bringing up consciousness :P
05:41:35 <pikhq> coppro: I'd imagine we could simulate such quantum effects as are relevant if we really needed to.
05:41:49 <pikhq> coppro: Just need a decent source of random numbers.
05:41:50 <elliott> coppro: Turing machines can compute all the same things quantum computers can, just slower ;D
05:42:20 <coppro> A Turing machine is deterministic
05:42:39 <macrohauler> elliott: well, i do believe consciousness has nothing to do with how the human brain is built.. consciousness exists with everything, it's one with everything
05:42:48 <elliott> macrohauler: <macrohauler> elliott: dont get all philosophic on me
05:42:52 <coppro> I believe the brain is nondeterministic
05:42:59 <elliott> coppro: It was a joke of sorts.
05:43:02 <pikhq> Actually, on another note. There is no reason we could not directly *create* a human brain analog entirely from scratch.
05:43:19 <pikhq> The brain is matter which is created via reasonably well-understood processes.
05:43:35 <elliott> pikhq: Sure. It'd be quite big though.
05:43:37 <coppro> pikhq: faster to create a fertilized human egg cell :P
05:43:44 <macrohauler> i just believe the way the human brain is built, makes us 'aware', if you like, of this consciousness
05:43:44 <pikhq> It's "merely" an engineering challenge to imitate the same using entirely man-made things.
05:43:45 <elliott> At least I don't think we could build an artificial neuron small enough with our current tech.
05:43:47 <zzo38> coppro: Yes there are quantum effects and maybe you could simulate it I think. A source of random numbers might not be enough to actually count as "consciousness" though??? I don't know, it is philosophical. Anyways, you might not have enough memory or time if it is not a quantum computer. I also believe brain is nondeterministic, but there are high chance and low chance.
05:43:53 <coppro> (can you imagine what the ethicists would say)
05:44:00 <pikhq> elliott: I'm not saying we could *with current tech*.
05:44:10 <elliott> coppro: yeah, CLONING with MUTATIONS???
05:44:12 <pikhq> elliott: Hence why I say it's "merely" an engineering challenge.
05:44:24 <elliott> there are NO LAWS to REGULATE this kind of stuffXXXXX
05:44:27 <coppro> zzo38: A Turing machine is fundamentally incapable of correctly simulating quantum effects
05:44:34 <coppro> elliott: not cloning with mutations
05:44:38 <coppro> AN ENTIRELY ARTIFICIAL HUMAN
05:44:42 <elliott> coppro: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
05:44:53 <elliott> coppro: I am referring to breeding here, btw :P
05:44:59 <pikhq> It'd take a hell of a lot of research, but there's no reason to think we couldn't design a full artificial biology.
05:45:01 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, it is what I mean. You can, however, approximate it. But even approximation requires memory and time a lot.
05:45:11 <pikhq> Aside from, of course, us opting not to.
05:45:20 <zzo38> So, try it using a quantum computer, to make something somewhat more accurate.
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05:45:33 <coppro> zzo38: A non-deterministic TM would do
05:45:40 <coppro> or we could just not care about the quantum effects
05:45:51 <coppro> It's unlikely they're significant enough that the brain depends on them to get conciousness
05:45:55 <pikhq> coppro: Good thing we can do non-determinism in the "real world". :)
05:46:04 <elliott> Can someone type caret-nr for me
05:46:12 <fungot> `1234567890-=~!@#$%^&*()_+
05:46:33 <pikhq> Just a geiger counter away.
05:46:49 <coppro> elliott: the thing that amuses me about a purely artifical human being is that it would be COMPLETELY indistinguishable from a real human
05:46:53 <coppro> but people would be pissed off
05:47:17 <elliott> coppro: I'm not sure simulating a human is a worthwhile goal, to be honest
05:47:27 <elliott> In that I don't think it'd teach us much/anything about how to build a better AI
05:47:42 <coppro> elliott: oh, absolutely not
05:47:51 <pikhq> elliott: Simulating a human brain could at least *get* us a better AI hypothetically.
05:47:51 <macrohauler> elliott: no but it wold be a helluvan achievement
05:47:55 <coppro> designing a human egg cell from scratch would teach us little
05:48:03 <elliott> macrohauler: An achievement, sure, I just dunno if it's something we should _bother_ doing :)
05:48:27 <macrohauler> elliott: maybe we'd learn something valuable in the process of doing so?
05:48:42 <pikhq> elliott: Nothing like designing something from scratch, but hey, this simulated brain would no longer have an upper bound of practical skull size.
05:48:47 <macrohauler> as how many brain diseases and damages works?
05:48:48 <elliott> macrohauler: Like what? It'd be an exercise in simulating a neuron... were we to develop an AI from scratch, we would not use such low-level technology.
05:48:50 <zzo38> Then simulate some new brain and new egg cell, and new scratch..... instead of necessarily humans or AI, or Turing machines.
05:49:04 <elliott> We wouldn't find anything more out about disease, we can already take images of the brain.
05:49:14 <elliott> There are too many neurons to do a piece-by-piece analysis of them.
05:49:26 <elliott> No, but you can make good guesses :)
05:49:26 <coppro> pikhq: your new assignment is to find me a jar to live in
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05:49:34 <elliott> coppro: i have this really nice jar for you
05:49:37 <elliott> would you like to live in it
05:50:07 <coppro> elliott: I'll pay -$10000/month for it
05:50:40 -!- news-ham has joined.
05:50:43 <news-ham> Cuckoos copy hawks to scare birds: Cuckoos' hawk-like plumage helps them avoid attacks from birds whose nests they are trying to invade, say scientists. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_9458000/9458906.stm
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05:58:06 <zzo38> Is there any kind of FEN notation for Shogi game?
05:59:02 <pikhq> Should only need a symbol for each piece, and use drop notation.
05:59:18 <pikhq> And those symbols exist.
05:59:41 <pikhq> Oh, wait, FEN notation, not algebraic. XD
06:00:29 <pikhq> But, still. Even if there isn't a defined one, it should be trivial.
06:02:27 <zzo38> Yes, but need two parts, one for board, one for pieces not on the board. And some way to indicate if it is promoted. One way to do so, is letters next in the alphabet used for promoted.
06:02:54 <zzo38> And then, to make tsume shogi, put the number of moves also at the beginning (odd numbers only).
06:03:17 <pikhq> The promoted-state of a piece is part of the symbol.
06:03:52 <elliott> does C actually guarantee any kind of char arithmetic
06:03:56 <pikhq> + as a prefix for the Latin alphabet symbols, distinct name for the kanji abbreviations.
06:04:23 <pikhq> elliott: Pretty sure POSIX does make those guarantees, though.
06:04:35 <zzo38> Kanji abbreviation you do have a distinct kanji for promoted/unpromoted. But if it is ASCII, you need it something else. One way is + sign prefix.
06:05:08 <zzo38> That is why, I was talking about using ASCII, and ASCII does not include kanji.
06:05:24 <pikhq> Anyways, even if it doesn't exist as a real "thing", it'd be very easy for you to define it, and pretty generally accepted by anyone who had the need.
06:06:19 <coppro> elliott: It makes on guarantee; that '0' through '9' are contiguous
06:06:47 <pikhq> coppro: Strange thing to guarantee.
06:07:08 <pikhq> Though I suppose it *does* make itoa nicer.
06:07:10 <coppro> 'a' through 'z' is a bad guarantee; many real-world encodings violate it while '0' through '9' is near-universal
06:07:26 <zzo38> If '0' through '9' are contiguous then it means you can make ('0'+(x%10))
06:07:32 <pikhq> Well, yeah, 'a' through 'z' is broken by EBCDIC.
06:08:17 <zzo38> But I think there is problems with EBCDIC. ASCII is better.
06:08:48 <pikhq> Yes, ASCII is significantly better than EBCDIC.
06:08:57 <elliott> wow, something we can all agree on
06:09:23 <oerjan> wasn't there some encoding that had 1-9 then 0
06:09:38 <oerjan> like baudot or something
06:09:39 <elliott> are you thinking of keyboards :P
06:09:43 <zzo38> Still now exactly how I would have done, but at least ASCII is better than EBCDIC.
06:10:07 <zzo38> oerjan: No, baudot uses FIGURES mode and LETTERS mode. 'Q' is '1', 'W' is '2', and so on across the QWERTY keyboard.
06:10:22 <oerjan> as well as some phones
06:10:28 <zzo38> And neither the letters or numbers are in order.
06:10:28 <coppro> oerjan: baudot has 1-9 followed by 0 lining up with QWERTYUIOP but the actual encoding of those is non-consecutive
06:10:59 <pikhq> oerjan: Phones are perverse and different.
06:11:29 <pikhq> Remember, the phone system is based entirely around "what made sense 75-100 years ago".
06:11:50 <pikhq> Except *maybe* tone dialing. That's more like 50.
06:11:51 <elliott> pikhq: HAVE YOU WATCHED THAT YOUTUBE VIDEO
06:12:03 <pikhq> elliott: I think I had linked it in here a month ago, actually.
06:12:06 <elliott> You can upgrade from Windows one point oh to Seven and keep all your programsXXXXXXXxXXXXX
06:12:10 <elliott> pikhq: Wasn't that another one?
06:12:12 <zzo38> How do I deal with "mater.pas:20: error: module/unit interface `Crt' could not be imported" I don't know
06:12:15 <elliott> I remember one for all IE versions or something.
06:12:19 <elliott> Some other perverse thing.
06:12:29 <elliott> pikhq: That's what I said.
06:12:30 <coppro> tone dialing actually makes sense as long as you're on an analog line
06:12:31 <zzo38> Pulse dialing is ten if you want zero. I think, more than ten at once is also same as zero.
06:12:57 <fizzie> POSIX only provides the '0' ... '9' guarantee too.
06:13:14 <pikhq> fizzie: I could've *sworn* it provided a guarantee of ASCII.
06:13:51 <zzo38> My programs usually depend on ASCII.
06:14:17 <fizzie> " Std 1003.1-2001 places only the following requirements on the encoded values of the characters in the portable character set:
06:14:17 <fizzie> # The encoded values associated with the digits 0 to 9 shall be such that the value of each character after 0 shall be one greater than the value of the previous character.
06:14:17 <fizzie> # [some others that aren't so related]"
06:14:25 <zzo38> Sometimes even including the control characters such as start-of-heading and things like that.
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06:15:04 <elliott> fizzie: What are the others?
06:15:22 <pikhq> elliott: char is 8 bit. :)
06:15:39 <zzo38> But I would instead do the encoding that can do ('0'|(x&0xF))
06:15:49 <zzo38> But, it isn't, since we use ASCII instead.
06:16:11 <fizzie> elliott: A null character, NUL, must exist and have the value of 0; all encoded values are representable by a single byte, and if it's stored in a char it's positive (except for NUL), and then one complicated condition about locales.
06:16:27 <zzo38> At least ASCII is not that bad, though. I just say what would be had I been the people who design the coding.
06:16:31 <elliott> Okay, well that doesn't mean much :)
06:16:36 <fizzie> Though I think they do define CHAR_BIT == 8 elsewhere, yes.
06:16:46 <elliott> "and if it's stored in a char it's positive" Er.
06:16:49 <elliott> Doesn't glibc used signed char?
06:17:43 <pikhq> elliott: Doesn't violate that for ASCII.
06:17:53 <pikhq> elliott: Remember, ASCII is a 7-bit encoding.
06:18:10 <fizzie> The "portable character set" itself is much larger than what C provides, though; it's basically all non-control ASCII characters, plus a few of the control ones.
06:18:59 <elliott> More like portable character sex.
06:20:38 <zzo38> CWEB does have a command @' if you want to ensure ASCII codes, but it doesn't always provide the solution. You would still need to add the stuff to your program to convert the codes.
06:20:49 <pikhq> Really wish C made a few stronger guarantees.
06:21:02 <zzo38> Like, @'0'==48 always.
06:21:42 <pikhq> Though I can at least understand why it doesn't: at the time, it was entirely plausible you'd actually have a system without an ASCII-oid character set in use.
06:21:55 <pikhq> Or pointers of distinct sizes for distinct types.
06:22:03 <elliott> /sniff /cry my earthporn post isn't popular SNIFF CRY
06:22:09 <elliott> o how worthless my life is
06:22:25 <elliott> oh, the thumbnail is broken. that might have something to do with it.
06:23:01 <fizzie> Right, the POSIX CHAR_BIT == 8 was sort of implied, not explicit; (1) C itself says CHAR_BIT >= 8; (2) C99 says "intN_t" has width of N, no padding bits and a two's complement representation; (3) POSIX says int8_t is required (not just optional), and since sizeof(int8_t) must be 1 (as CHAR_BIT >= 8) and int8_t can have no padding, CHAR_BIT == 8.
06:23:04 <zzo38> I do suppose, some computers might be possible to be made with distinct pointers, and some other things, including able to have things which are not work in C at all.
06:24:46 <zzo38> Maybe sizeof(int*)!=sizeof(int**) is there any such computers?
06:25:14 <elliott> Although I would expect char there, not int.
06:25:21 <elliott> Since one can imagine a smaller "string pointer" space.
06:25:28 <fizzie> Yes, for sizeof(char*) != sizeof(char**) there probably are. Though not for that reason.
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06:25:37 <fizzie> Well, maybe for that reason too, but still.
06:26:21 <fizzie> Some Crays have longer-than-usual char*s, since it encodes (in two words) first a pointer to the word, then the character offset; the memory's not very byte-addressable, but they still fake 8-bit bytes.
06:26:37 <elliott> Crays sound like total DS9Ks.
06:26:40 <elliott> I'm not sure it's worth the OMG SPEED.
06:27:03 <elliott> Gentoo to offer thirty-two-bit bytes, for SPEEDXXXX
06:27:07 <elliott> It's a machine wordXXXXXXX
06:27:57 <pikhq> Eh, Crays were pretty much for the few use cases where speed matters above all else.
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06:28:06 <pikhq> Bit of a wonder they actually stuck C and UNIX on there, though.
06:28:23 <pikhq> Fairly antithetical to the computing model.
06:28:39 <fizzie> The people who run their code on ones just write FORTRAN anyway. :p
06:28:56 <pikhq> fizzie: No reason any more.
06:29:06 <pikhq> My cell phone does more FLOPS.
06:29:08 <coppro> I love it when xkcd is google-based
06:29:17 <elliott> pikhq: They still makes Crays, but less perverse ones
06:29:29 <elliott> coppro: CHARTS AND GRAPHS THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT ARE FUNNY
06:29:42 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, refering to the classic ones.
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06:31:37 <elliott> two-oh-seven-three -- Oceans do not rise one foot
06:31:49 <elliott> two-oh-sixty-nine -- Public masturbation legalized
06:32:01 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: robots? <-- wat
06:32:01 <elliott> As a natural consequence of EVERYONE BEING GAY.
06:32:47 <coppro> elliott: I have to vouch for 2069
06:32:47 <fizzie> We had this topic earlier too, but now I'm again disappointed that our neighbour CSC "Center for Scientific Computation" got a really boring paint job for their Cray XT5; compare something like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/JaguarXT5.jpg and http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Oak_Ridge_-_Kraken_%28Cray_XT5%29.JPG with http://www.csc.fi/english/research/Computing_services/computing/servers/louhi/2007-07-13.9357909976/image
06:33:18 <elliott> That Jaguar thing is really bitching, I must say. Seen it before.
06:33:25 <elliott> coppro: Have you, er, been to the future?
06:33:36 <coppro> elliott: nope. That year can't possibly be bad though
06:33:40 <elliott> fizzie: You should go and VIGILANTE REPAINT IT.
06:33:54 <elliott> coppro: its funny because it has six and nine in itXXXXXXXXXXxxoneXXXXXoneONExxxXXone
06:33:56 <fizzie> They might have a lock(tm) on the door.
06:34:05 <elliott> fizzie: You just need a: key(tm).
06:34:46 <coppro> (protip: ensure you have a sexual companion going into that year)
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06:36:15 <pikhq> fizzie: Seriously, if you're going to have a Cray you *might as well* get a decent appearance on it.
06:36:37 <pikhq> fizzie: After all, that's all the ignorants will see. Good idea to convince them it's actually awesome rather than a bunch of boxes. :P
06:36:58 <elliott> Put BATMAN on it except it's LASER BATMAN and he's friends with KITTENS and shooting LASER BEAMS at COMPUTING PROBLEMS.
06:37:05 <elliott> AND IT'LL RUN AS FAST AS GOOGLE
06:37:09 <elliott> PETABASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES
06:37:11 <fizzie> pikhq: Also the name of the system is Louhi, as in the person with wings in http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Gallen-Kallela_The_defence_of_the_Sampo.png
06:37:16 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yH_j8-VVLo
06:37:48 <elliott> fizzie: Is your Cray powered by LIGHTNING. REAL LIGHTNING?
06:38:06 <elliott> Also, that guy with wings is one weird bro.
06:38:14 <fizzie> It's a "she", actually.
06:38:19 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louhi
06:38:25 <fizzie> Admittedly not very clear from the painting.
06:38:31 <elliott> Your mythology: it is: weird.
06:38:53 <elliott> So, uh, she's the bad guy, right?
06:39:03 <oklopol> "<coppro> zzo38: A Turing machine is fundamentally incapable of correctly simulating quantum effects" "<coppro> zzo38: A non-deterministic TM would do" <<< if these both are about "quantum effects", then what do you mean, nondeterminism doesn't have much to do with quantum stuff
06:39:04 <fizzie> Yes. Well, mostly, anyway.
06:39:41 <coppro> oklopol: To the best of our knowledge, our universe is not simulatable with a deterministic construction
06:39:51 <elliott> fizzie: Is there, ALL THESE LAYERS, I would NOT UNDERSTAND?
06:40:00 <oklopol> (at least as far as anyone knows)
06:40:08 <elliott> coppro: just pick the right choice at each point.
06:40:14 <oklopol> (except people who have no idea what nondeterminism and quantum stuff are)
06:40:18 <elliott> just store every coin flip since the big bang
06:40:25 <elliott> in fact, if those are truly random, seed a prng with them :)
06:40:31 <coppro> I said "to the best of our knowledge"
06:40:42 <elliott> coppro: did I not just contradict that?
06:40:48 <elliott> there is obviously such a list of coin flips
06:41:10 <coppro> elliott: that is not deterministic
06:41:16 <elliott> why not, it's a fixed list
06:41:22 <elliott> you can run it on a deterministic machine
06:41:28 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: wat? <-- yes, wat.
06:43:20 <oklopol> coppro: i have a hunch you have no idea what you're talking about
06:43:40 <elliott> i would like an explanation of how a fixed initial list of data plus a deterministic algorithm is somehow nondeterministic
06:45:59 <oklopol> coppro: in any case all i'm saying the mathematical concepts of nondeterminic computation and quantum computation don't have any sort of clear connections.
06:46:03 <elliott> oklopol: let's start a betting pool of when we'll get an answer
06:46:30 <oklopol> i'm sure whatever those words mean for you have lots of connections, but then again i'm sure quantum computation means about as much to you as to me: 0
06:46:33 <coppro> elliott: I could just be failing to understand you
06:46:52 <elliott> coppro: The entire nondeterministic part of our universe comes down to coinflips. Yes?
06:47:03 <oklopol> they do a lot of that stuff at the uni but no courses :(
06:47:09 <elliott> From the POV of a Turing machine simulatng.
06:47:38 <coppro> oklopol: A quantum computer can be simulated perfectly by a nondeterministic one, although possibly not efficiently
06:47:53 <coppro> elliott: yes (assuming we don't care about efficiency)
06:48:03 <oklopol> coppro: and a nondeterministic one can be simulated perfectly by a deterministic one
06:48:10 <oklopol> and that's a transitive relation
06:48:12 <elliott> coppro: Now consider up to the moment this message was sent.
06:48:20 <elliott> coppro: Every time such a coinflip would have to be made, it results in either zero or one.
06:48:30 <oklopol> no? then we're not talking about turing machines i suppose
06:48:32 <elliott> coppro: Therefore, there is a FINITE LIST of zeroes and ones that constitute the COINFLIP RESULTS of this universe.
06:48:47 <coppro> oklopol: A nondeterministic TM might not produce the same result each time its run
06:48:48 <oklopol> or you have a very weird definition of simulating
06:48:55 <pikhq> elliott: Presuming finite universe.
06:48:58 <elliott> coppro: These, plus a deterministic computer that looks at the next element of a list whenever it needs to flip a coin, would simulate the universe up to the present.
06:49:00 <oklopol> coppro: how delightfully relevant
06:49:20 <elliott> coppro: Therefore a deterministic computer can simulate the universe.
06:49:44 <coppro> elliott: It can reconstruct the events but not predict them given a state
06:49:55 <elliott> coppro: That is way too vague to respond to.
06:49:59 <oklopol> can i ignore a whole channel?
06:51:11 <zzo38> You can also set user mode +D (this ignores *all* channels)
06:51:24 <oklopol> i would never ignore #matrixofsolidity
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06:51:52 <zzo38> Then you could just use PART or else see if there is a macro in your client that can filter out by channels
06:52:00 <elliott> zzo38: please join #matrixofsolidity
06:52:03 <oklopol> part is out of the question
06:52:24 <oklopol> i wanna be close to you guys
06:52:24 <zzo38> Then see if there is such a macro that can be set in your client.
06:52:30 <oklopol> but i'd also like you to shut up!
06:52:57 <elliott> http://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Real-Little-Astounding-Story/dp/0849946158/ref=zg_bs_books_2 ;; this is on the amazon.com bestseller list
06:52:59 <oklopol> well theoretically i could just write one
06:53:12 <elliott> "Told by the father, but often in Colton's own words, the disarmingly simple message is heaven is a real place, Jesus really loves children, and be ready, there is a coming last battle."
06:54:35 <oklopol> haha, god made one helluva blunder there :DS
06:54:49 <oklopol> "WHOOPS HE AIN'T DEAD YET!"
06:55:10 <oklopol> "luckily no one will believe him because christians are such annoying retards"
06:55:12 <zzo38> I know that my client can be made macro to filter many things with /F command, but I am sure other IRC client must have filters too, although the command is probably not /F it might be a menu instead.
06:55:23 <oklopol> yeah, god is quite the asshole.
06:55:54 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> haha, god made one helluva blunder there :DS <oklopol> "WHOOPS HE AIN'T DEAD YET!" <oklopol> "luckily no one will believe him because christians are such annoying retards"
06:55:56 <HackEgo> 368) <oklopol> haha, god made one helluva blunder there :DS <oklopol> "WHOOPS HE AIN'T DEAD YET!" <oklopol> "luckily no one will believe him because christians are such annoying retards"
06:56:48 <zzo38> Not all Christians are, but there are a lot of Christians that are such annoying retards.
06:56:51 * pikhq wonders at the whole "The Lord is my shepard" bit.
06:57:04 <pikhq> So, the Lord converteth me to lamb cutlets?
06:57:44 <pikhq> So, I suppose we little ones shall have to learn the art of karate, and then we'll make the bugger's eyes water.
06:58:29 <elliott> [["I strongly believe the President needs to be removed from office by the U.S. Military and tried under the military court system."img "Am I advocating a military coup? No I am not." Actually, it would appear that you are, Johnny. Somebody call the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services FBI. P-Foster (talk) 01:45, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
06:58:29 <elliott> F..U..C..K..!!!! What is he on? --Scream!! (talk) 01:53, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
06:58:29 <elliott> Holy fuck. That's a whole new level of insane cognitive dissonance. --The Emperor 02:02, 16 April 2011 (UTC)]]
06:58:39 <elliott> You'd rejoice if they did that to Bush.
06:58:40 * oklopol considers "<zzo38> Not all Christians are, but there are a lot of Christians that are such annoying retards." rather quoteworthy as well
06:58:53 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> Not all Christians are, but there are a lot of Christians that are such annoying retards.
06:58:54 <HackEgo> 369) <zzo38> Not all Christians are, but there are a lot of Christians that are such annoying retards.
06:59:11 <elliott> three hundred and sixty nine quotes
06:59:29 <elliott> which ends the number and nothing follows it you idiot
06:59:55 <zzo38> It has 3,6,9 is the sequence, too. And it is divisible by three.
07:00:38 <oklopol> those are some of its better qualities
07:01:31 <oklopol> i wanna read that book to make me long for heaven just a little more :o
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07:21:20 <zzo38> What kind of shortcuts can be taken in an algorithm for tsume shogi?
07:21:49 <zzo38> Probably one is, ignore moves without check, and do not look far ahead than the number of moves specified
07:22:58 <zzo38> In a few cases doesn't matter if you promote or not, but sometimes it does matter, even Flying Chariot->Dragon King can sometimes matter in case of pawn drops.
07:23:01 <zzo38> But is there others?
07:23:11 <elliott> isn't there a chess channel for this?
07:23:40 <zzo38> I don't know. Is there channel for tsume shogi?
07:23:55 <elliott> a chess variants channel would seem to fit that
07:24:14 <zzo38> O, there is ##chess on this server, I don't know if they do programming
07:24:16 <elliott> more people might have answers there
07:24:31 <zzo38> Yes I found ##chess already, I try by TOPIC command can be used to try channels.
07:28:54 <zzo38> It seems maybe they don't know. Do you know tsume shogi?
07:29:05 <elliott> How did you deduce they do not know?
07:30:47 <zzo38> Maybe they do know. But not yet.
07:31:02 <zzo38> Or maybe they know chess but not tsume shogi.
07:31:04 <elliott> zzo38: How a spider???? Now---ajodisdioj
07:34:47 <zzo38> Maybe the Japanese knows more about the tsume shogi.
07:35:00 <elliott> Go to Japan and ask them. Or, maybe do not.
07:41:56 <zzo38> Do you know any shortcuts in tsume shogi other than what I have mentioned already?
07:43:14 * oerjan is starting to detect a pattern here
07:44:07 <zzo38> elliott: What about YOGI BEAR?
07:44:19 <elliott> bram cohen and russell o'connor agreeing
07:45:21 <elliott> i need a octothorpe people
07:46:07 <zzo38> No, you need to fix your computer instead.
07:47:00 <elliott> oerjan: can you prove the finite axiom of choice????????/////////////
07:48:45 <elliott> oerjan: but russell o'connor says you won't do it properly :(
07:52:04 <oerjan> Let M be a finite family of nonempty sets. We will prove it by induction on the cardinality of M. If M is empty then picking an element from each element of M is trivial. Otherwise let X be an element of M, and x an element of X. (These choices are made simply by predicate logic.) M\{X} is then a set of cardinality less than M, so by induction we can pick an element from each element of M\{X}. Add x for X to the choices for M\{X}. Q.E.D.
07:53:22 <elliott> oerjan: http://r6.ca/blog/20110307T035926Z.html
07:53:25 <elliott> oerjan: Did you fall into his TRAP
07:55:01 <oerjan> given that i never wrote a list of elements of M, i'd say no.
07:55:27 <elliott> oerjan: you know what's BETTER than robots?
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08:05:29 <oerjan> obviously nooga has been trademarked
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08:34:59 <elliott> the world is made out of fish
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08:41:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what are the friends my haps
08:41:45 <news-ham> China property price growth slows: China's property price growth slowed in March, as fewer Chinese cities saw an increase in the price of new homes. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/business-13111838
08:42:02 <elliott> news-ham: YOU ARE IMMORTAL REDDIT
08:42:03 <news-ham> Great Salt Flats after a rain http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/gsayb/great_salt_flats_after_a_rain/
08:53:53 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfOyE5b2jh4&feature=feedu
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09:23:12 <elliott> Yahweasel: Is there a better server-side JS solution than Node? Say yes.
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09:32:13 <Ilari> Hah: "Then along came the iPhone and all of a sudden people started to actually mobile data for something, which was quickly followed by the realisation that «CGN sucks»."
09:33:53 <Ilari> Mobile connections might be the downfall of RIPE.
09:35:10 <monqy> "JS solution" sounds peculiar to me too, unless it's about solving JS
09:35:41 <elliott> "solution" is buzzword speak for "thing that does this" :)
09:37:14 <monqy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_server-side_JavaScript_solutions well fancy that
09:37:33 <monqy> even wikipedia calls it that
09:37:48 <elliott> it's the language, it attracts the mindlessness :)
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09:52:04 <Ilari> There's talk on ipv4depletion about RIPE possibly soon getting hit with some huge allocation requests.
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10:00:09 <Ilari> And no, Those huge requests are not for IPv6 /20s or such (AFAIK, the biggest RIPE NCC IPv6 allocations to ISPs are /20s). :-/
10:00:59 <nooga> http://dragomir.org/360/ <-- this software renderer performs really nice btw.
10:12:50 <Ilari> There are two /19s, but AFAIK those are LIRs.
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12:34:24 <Yahweasel> <elliott> Yahweasel: Is there a better server-side JS solution than Node? Say yes. // GOD I wish there was X_X
12:34:55 <elliott> Yahweasel: Is, say, writing a manual wrapper around SpiderMonkey superior to Node? :P
12:35:08 <elliott> WELCOME TO JAVASCRIPT, CAPITAL OF PAIN CENTRAL
12:36:20 <Yahweasel> Depends on what you're trying to do.
12:37:16 <elliott> Part of Normish Two's goal is to be a host to EVERY OTHER CODENOMIC EVER, and I've decided that rewriting Ecmanomic would be more productive than using it.
12:37:50 <elliott> Related: Is there any way to get [any JS engine] to store comments in a function for toString(), Ecmanomic stuff does String("a comment"); for that and it's insanely ugly.
12:46:56 * oerjan gets the idea of a codenomic in lazy ///
12:47:40 <oerjan> just feed the messages into it as a stream...
12:47:59 <elliott> oerjan: oh, you mean the traditional kind of codenomic?
12:48:12 <elliott> vs. things like perlnomic, where you interact with a non-code UI
12:48:37 <oerjan> well it's the obvious way to feed anything to /// ...
12:48:49 <elliott> oerjan: hm is there a way to turn something like \/a\/b\/ into /a/b/ in ///
12:48:54 <elliott> that is, unescape some delimited text
12:49:02 <elliott> if so, you could even do proposals, I guess
12:49:12 <elliott> /proposal lotsofvotes escapedstuff/itscodenow/
12:49:47 <elliott> not just replace a placeholder
12:49:57 <elliott> (i'm thinking that you'd just escape _every_ message, and if it was a proposal, it'd de-escape later, if it got enough votes)
12:50:02 <elliott> (otherwise you could just insert arbitrary code)
12:50:48 <oerjan> the problem is how to escape messages without also escaping your program parts
12:51:08 <elliott> oerjan: well let's say this was a slightly more featured language :D
12:51:23 <elliott> i mean to demonstrate what i mean
12:51:25 <oerjan> well /// may not be ideal for this :D
12:51:34 <elliott> ok, so you replace \ and / with backslash, plus those characters, in the input message, right?
12:51:40 <elliott> there could be a rule like this
12:52:06 <elliott> /proposal votes=lots STARTCODE(...)ENDCODE/de-escape(...)/e
12:52:09 <elliott> where de-escape does the obvious inverse
12:52:20 <elliott> in this way, we just escape all input data, and then selectively turn it into code
12:52:24 <elliott> obviously in /// it will be more involved
12:52:28 <elliott> but I take it that kind of thing is possible?
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12:55:10 <oerjan> it may need a more involved encoding than just \ escaping
12:55:18 <elliott> oerjan: that's why i said more involved
12:55:24 <elliott> I'm just saying, that sort of thing is surely possible
12:55:26 <oerjan> see: all that mess to get a main loop going
12:55:58 <elliott> that's a basic de-escaping thing :D
12:57:04 <oerjan> the always present subtlety is that after running such a de-escaping your program won't contain any instances of the original string, anywhere
12:58:40 <Vorpal> elliott, STILL up? or have you slept?
12:58:49 <elliott> yes i have absolutely slept. for a very long time.
12:59:23 <Vorpal> hm doesn't look like it
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13:00:56 <Vorpal> random: in an alternate universe, zombies make horror movies about the living.
13:01:23 <elliott> more like... mundane movies
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13:07:16 <Vorpal> elliott, no that would be a mirror universe
13:07:38 <HackEgo> 17) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ 23) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to get head twice at once \ 24) <oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird has taste \ 25) IN AN
13:07:52 <Vorpal> elliott, mirror universes are however a sub-class of alternate universes
13:08:34 <HackEgo> 115) <apollo> Why couldn't we have just kept STD?
13:09:13 <Vorpal> that one doesn't make a lot of sense outside context. Unless it is supposed to be a rather lame joke about STD as in HIV, and so on
13:09:24 <oerjan> we need all the aids we can get
13:09:39 <elliott> like 90 percent of the Sine quotes suck EVEN MORE than our worst efforts :D
13:09:43 <Vorpal> elliott, it might have been funny in the context. Who knows.
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13:15:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: It's this thing.
13:33:38 <Yahweasel> <Vorpal> that one doesn't make a lot of sense outside context. Unless it is supposed to be a rather lame joke about STD as in HIV, and so on // HELLO WELCOME TO QUOTE DATABASES 101
13:35:20 <elliott> <Yahweasel> <Vorpal> that one doesn't make a lot of sense outside context. Unless it is supposed to be a rather lame joke about STD as in HIV, and so on // HELLO WELCOME TO QUOTE DATABASES 101
13:35:25 <elliott> `addquote <elliott> <Yahweasel> <Vorpal> that one doesn't make a lot of sense outside context. Unless it is supposed to be a rather lame joke about STD as in HIV, and so on // HELLO WELCOME TO QUOTE DATABASES 101
13:35:28 <HackEgo> 369) <elliott> <Yahweasel> <Vorpal> that one doesn't make a lot of sense outside context. Unless it is supposed to be a rather lame joke about STD as in HIV, and so on // HELLO WELCOME TO QUOTE DATABASES 101
13:35:32 <elliott> THAT QUOTE IS AMBIGUOUS FOREVER
13:35:35 <HackEgo> 101) <MissPiggy> bi is like sqrt(2)/2 * straight + i * sqrt(2)/2 * gay
13:35:36 <HackEgo> 67) <oklopol> hmm, this is hard
13:35:37 <HackEgo> 105) <Warrigal> A person's sex is not the same thing as their penis length.
13:35:38 <HackEgo> 110) <fax> oklopol geez what are you doing here <oklokok> ...i don't know :< <oklokok> i actually ate until now, although i guess i also did other things...
13:35:39 <HackEgo> 168) <alise> So basically we're having an awful lot of very dangerous intercourse. <alise> Involving open wounds. <coppro> I'm going to take a shower
13:39:27 <HackEgo> 255) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly)
13:39:27 <HackEgo> 142) <fungot> [...] i'm a law student so i am loving my bread machine
13:39:28 <HackEgo> 243) <Sgeo> My quotes are boring
13:39:28 <HackEgo> 249) <fizzie> The Perl script is probably slower than the Befunge code.
13:39:29 <HackEgo> 341) <fungot> oerjan: are you in an aware state when the only hammer you have is for variable assignation and blocks
13:39:30 <HackEgo> 120) <Miya> I perceived it so hard I actually went away :O
13:43:12 <elliott> Unfortunately nothing can possibly be good enough to have the name Professional Octopus of the World.
13:43:45 * oerjan is reminded of the card game Lord of the Fries
13:43:54 <Phantom_Hoover> How about a game wherein one plays a suave, jetsetting octopus touring the world?
13:44:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Insufficiently good.
13:44:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Jetsetting Octopus of the World, maybe.
13:44:17 <elliott> But not Professional Octopus of the World.
13:44:38 <oerjan> i think it had octopi as well
13:44:55 <Phantom_Hoover> A businessoctopus which flies around the world making business trips?
13:45:00 <oerjan> maybe not sandwiches thoug
13:45:06 <elliott> You are diluting the concept with human business crap.
13:45:09 <elliott> Professional Octopus of the World.
13:47:43 <Vorpal> elliott, a hyper-realistic octupus simulator.
13:48:12 <Vorpal> elliott, for use with 3D glasses (of the type with an LCD in front of each eye)
13:48:31 <elliott> Professional Octopus of the World.
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13:49:14 <elliott> if copumpkin was an octopus, he'd be a coctopus.
13:49:45 <elliott> it's funny because it sounds like cocktopus
13:49:57 <Vorpal> I realise that was your intention
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14:13:03 <augur> anyone here both on a PC and also interested in a Black Prophecy beta invite?
14:14:44 <elliott> You been watching too many Apple ads.
14:15:19 <augur> linux machines arent tained by the name that is PC
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14:17:59 <tswett> fungot: please say something witty.
14:18:00 <fungot> tswett: being able to use mouse in elinks with gpm? :) ( i.e. how to set up
14:18:43 <fungot> tswett: in that case, it must be big and ugly and impressively brute force. :p couldn't do it in ocaml too long since i've written c code ( instead of the innate oko nature
14:18:57 <elliott> tswett clearly knows nothing of AI rights
14:19:19 <fungot> tswett: i thought you were old and wise or something. i asked you what you have currently traversed
14:19:30 <tswett> elliott: he's making fun of me for loving him. :(
14:19:44 <tswett> fungot: okay, I hate you instead.
14:19:44 <fungot> tswett: the first time
14:20:02 <elliott> tswett: he just can't believe that someone so old and wise could love _HIM_
14:20:19 <tswett> No, he definitely doesn't want to be loved.
14:20:25 <tswett> Anyway, it's bedtime again. Good night!
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14:40:59 <Vorpal> elliott, the saved path was not persisted on disk in the old version I had source for. And my adding of the path editing feature found in later versions introduced a bug so gateway could go missing from trace. Fixed both.
14:41:24 <elliott> Vorpal: Now fix that global loan counter and increase the bankHackingDifficulty variable by five thousand.
14:41:31 <elliott> Erm. Global credit rating counter.
14:41:34 <Vorpal> elliott, that gateway could go missing? Well it didn't check for 127.0.0.1 when editing path :P
14:41:53 <elliott> What happened if you connected without the gateway? :P
14:42:09 <Vorpal> elliott, messy, I don't want to change save format. I stored the stored path in a separate file to avoid invalidating save games
14:42:24 <Vorpal> elliott, no idea about trace
14:42:29 <elliott> Vorpal: Bah, who cares about changing the save format.
14:42:30 <Vorpal> would probably have crashed then
14:42:32 <elliott> What matters here is COOLNESS.
14:42:39 <Vorpal> I have NO idea how updating save from previous formats work
14:42:51 <elliott> You should add QUANTUM COPROCESSORS.
14:42:56 <elliott> They can HACK THE ELLIPTIC CURVES INSTANTLY.
14:43:18 <Vorpal> elliott, no, now I need to add "valid ip" stuff
14:43:45 <Vorpal> elliott, so, is there any list of which /24s in 1/8 are considered too noisy to use?
14:44:01 <Vorpal> but I think there are more
14:44:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Just use all valid IPs.
14:44:08 <elliott> Nobody is going to try using them for anything :P
14:44:08 <Vorpal> elliott, for realism you need to avoid these
14:44:16 <elliott> Vorpal: Avoid anything starting with a one.
14:44:24 <Vorpal> elliott, not realistic either!
14:44:24 <elliott> In fact, anything starting with anything less than ten looks weird.
14:44:28 <elliott> Apart from that four point whatever DNS server.
14:44:47 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm doing df realism in this bit, okay?
14:45:12 <elliott> In the least important place :P
14:45:15 <Vorpal> elliott, I need to avoid broadcast areas
14:45:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I find this is suspension of disbelief breaker to me
14:45:46 <elliott> The suspension of disbelief breaker is THE ENTIRE GAME.
14:45:50 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't mind all the other outrageous stuff, but this is just jarring.
14:45:58 <elliott> Vorpal: An entire reworking of IP addressing is ten times as realistic as the rest of the game.
14:46:13 <elliott> Why are you trying to force our-universe conventions on their future?
14:46:21 <elliott> They might LOOK like IPvFour addresses.
14:46:27 <elliott> But they're actually IPvNineteen addresses.
14:47:20 <Vorpal> $ whois 128.128.128.128
14:47:20 <Vorpal> why does that not work
14:47:35 <Vorpal> elliott, then it should say so!
14:47:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Does it document every other detail of its internet for you? No.
14:48:00 <Vorpal> elliott, like those extra credentials PH suggested you mentioned should be in game then
14:48:22 <elliott> Vorpal: For god's sake, connecting to a down computer gives you a four-oh-four.
14:48:27 <elliott> Clearly the infrastructure is completely different.
14:48:46 <Vorpal> elliott, what do you have *against* realistic IPs?
14:49:33 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm saying that your definition of realistic is wrong.
14:49:49 <elliott> It's about as reasonable as saying they should measure the storage in the number of tapes required.
14:49:56 <elliott> It is not the same universe.
14:50:02 <elliott> It is not the same internet.
14:52:33 <Vorpal> sprintf ( ip, "%d.%d.%d.%d", NumberGenerator::RandomNumber (1000), NumberGenerator::RandomNumber (1000), NumberGenerator::RandomNumber (1000), NumberGenerator::RandomNumber (1000) );
14:53:11 <Vorpal> setting it to 255 should be a good start.
14:53:28 <elliott> You realise all the game data files will have hardcoded IPs? I think.
14:53:28 <Vorpal> elliott, this means that they don't avoid valid ones as you suggested!
14:53:40 <Vorpal> elliott, they are not in the data files. They are in the source
14:53:53 <elliott> Well, you must leave Uplink's alone.
14:54:13 <Vorpal> elliott, there are some hard coded ones yes. Some I will leave alone. Some I might change.
14:54:35 <Vorpal> elliott, I might if you start using that osd keyboard
14:55:00 <Vorpal> dude I just realised you could get duplicate ips
14:55:08 <Vorpal> there is no handling of that
14:55:51 <elliott> "Crack whores on crack? What the fuck does that mean?"
14:56:36 <Vorpal> if that is handled, it is handled elsewhere
14:56:36 <Vorpal> well bbl, going to make food
14:56:55 <elliott> Wait, what IPs aren't hardcoded? Just the log entries?
14:56:58 <elliott> If so, I guess it doesn't matter.
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15:09:08 <elliott> "I made the decision that if she came within 10 feet of me, I would have to kill her and hide the body in the shadows, where no patrolling librarians would ever dare looking."
15:10:41 <cheater> [17:08] <BONUS> last call for free review copies of LYAH!
15:10:42 <cheater> [17:09] <BONUS> if you want a free copy & want to review it on amazon, msg me!
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15:31:17 <elliott> "For the record, Archive Team is downloading Google Video as we speak, but with only 14 days to do it, it's going to be a very small amount."
15:31:24 <elliott> WOULD PEOPLE STOP FUCKING RM -RFING SHIT THEY DIDN'T CREATE
15:32:34 <Vorpal> <elliott> Wait, what IPs aren't hardcoded? Just the log entries? <-- ?
15:32:51 <Vorpal> GenerateValidMapPos ( x, y );
15:32:51 <Vorpal> VLocation *vl = game->GetWorld ()->CreateVLocation ( IP_INTROVERSION, x, y );
15:32:51 <Vorpal> vl->SetListed ( false );
15:32:54 <Vorpal> elliott, that is an example
15:33:16 <Vorpal> yes mixed space and tab indention. They seem to use 4 spaces = 1 tab though
15:33:31 <Vorpal> but they are not consistent
15:33:36 <Vorpal> sometimes space, sometimes tab
15:33:48 <Vorpal> sometimes mixed in the same function
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15:37:09 <elliott> "The dots are likely due to radiation hitting the CCD (the light-receptive sensor in the camera) and/or RAM (hitting the RAM prior to JPEG encoding). So here's the question: given the number of dots in the picture (in this case, at least 27 in a 367x234 region), can we determine the radioactivity level?"
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16:07:26 <Vorpal> elliott, for a number of reasons no: one imaging element could be hit multiple times. And there is the heat noise issue in many cases.
16:07:35 <Vorpal> elliott, got a link to this craziness?
16:07:42 <elliott> it isn't crazinessit's aeome
16:07:51 <Vorpal> elliott, got a link to it anyway
16:07:59 <elliott> ]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
16:08:04 <Vorpal> elliott, and the link?
16:08:13 <elliott> sorry i had to lie on my keybaord
16:08:17 <elliott> m,.m/L:;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;:.'\
16:08:31 <elliott> http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/427-Radiation-Detection.html
16:08:32 <Vorpal> ah found it with google
16:09:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm sorry to disappoint you but http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_Uw91icJn-go/Tasd5JjZsoI/AAAAAAAAB1U/dNLiJ8YCHVg/s800/110412_1f_tsunami_6-crop.png is most likely due to a bad sensor. My camera has some of that in one corner.
16:09:57 <Vorpal> elliott, what you need to do is take two images on the same time/shutter/iso
16:09:58 <elliott> No apparently RADAR causes it too
16:10:09 <Vorpal> then eliminate the dots that are dead pixels
16:10:09 <elliott> You are fagging up the aweoms here
16:10:21 <Vorpal> elliott, I suggested a working way
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16:13:11 <Vorpal> elliott, actually this only makes good sense with raw images
16:16:59 <Vorpal> elliott, but what I said was also mentioned in the comments
16:17:31 <elliott> Guess who else was mentioned in the comments
16:17:43 <Vorpal> elliott, you seriously need sleep
16:17:50 <elliott> No, I just need less Vorpal ;D
16:18:09 <elliott> Usage: fortune -P [] -a [xsz] [Q: [file]] [rKe9] -v6[+] dataspec ... inputdir
16:19:30 <Vorpal> some will indeed be from gamma rays, probably none from alpha or beta. Indeed, you want two images with same exposure settings to substract dead pixels (which look about the same). And as one comment mentioned you need to know the angle between the CCD plane and the radiation source. Oh and you need to know how the CCD reacts to gamma rays.
16:19:46 <Vorpal> which means you need to calibrate it. At least 3 data points, to check if it is a linear curve
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16:40:34 <Ilari> APNIC: 5x1k+2x/32+/48 to Australia, 5x1k to China, 8x1k to Hong Kong, 5x1k+/32 to India, 2x1k to Japan, 1k to Lao People's Democratic Republic, 1k to Northern Mariana Islands, 6x1k to Malaysia, 1k to Nepal, /32 to French Polynesia, 1k to Philipphines, 2x1k+/48 to Singapore.
16:41:29 <Ilari> IPv6: 4 units allocated, 2 units assigned.
16:52:24 <Vorpal> Ilari, much less than the ipv4 speed
16:53:15 <Ilari> BTW: Global IPv4 allocation rates have fallen from ~2.8 to ~2.3 in few days. :-)
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17:34:10 <Gregor> Gee, apparently I've made substantial enough contributions to Narcissus to be one of the listed contributors.
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18:07:16 <HackEgo> 134) <oklopol> you move on the tape and shit
18:07:26 <HackEgo> 89) <coppro> hmm... does anyone know a nonsense game designed for the mentally handicapped involving yelling
18:07:31 <HackEgo> 103) <Warrigal> So, I'm inside a bottle which is being carried by a robot.
18:07:35 <HackEgo> 111) <songhead95> think of all the starving kids in china who don't have rotting sea life to eat
18:07:40 <HackEgo> 326) <oklopol> okay see in my head it went, you send from your other number smth like "i'd certainly like to see you in those pink panties again" and she's like "WHAT?!? Sgeo took a pic?!?!?! that FUCKING PIG"
18:17:09 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/projects/trac/esotericlogs/changeset/283%3Ade27052c2698/11.02.27
18:18:53 <Phantom_Hoover> 20:48:42 <Sgeo> She seems to be unaware that my other number is me, despite me telling her several times
18:19:23 <Phantom_Hoover> You shouldn't miss your chance to sociopathically mess with her.
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18:28:24 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, I feel weird that I agreed to go out with her (well, eat somewhere. She also suggested a movie, but I never texted back)
18:32:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, I'd say something but I see pikhq summed it up adequately at the time.
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19:13:14 <Gregor> http://github.com/images/error/angry_unicorn.png Apparently this is what github shows you when it's offline.
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19:16:41 <fizzie> They also have all those different Octocat-flavor error images.
19:17:41 <fizzie> https://github.com/images/error/octocat_sad.gif → https://github.com/images/error/octocat_happy.gif
19:21:04 <fizzie> And http://ctshryock.com/static/images/web-errors/github-404.png
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20:00:03 <cheater00> so who's getting a free review copy of LYAH?
20:14:12 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, wait, don't you have a theremin which you can't play?
20:15:32 <elliott> <Gregor> Gee, apparently I've made substantial enough contributions to Narcissus to be one of the listed contributors.
20:15:38 <elliott> I believe I mentioned this to you at one point.
20:16:29 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57vCBMqnC1Y
20:17:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Do you think that the means of production should not be privately owned yet support libertarianism?
20:17:32 <elliott> "Is he an idiot?" "For the moment, yes." "Should I strangle him?" "That's a tempting response, but..."
20:19:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Hanny's Voorwerp: best name for an astronomical anomaly?
20:22:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BTW I can confirm that philosophy freshmen are exactly like that video.
20:22:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: The moron that I pass off as my Oxfordian friend studies Mathematics and Philosophy, also known as: the stupidest possible degree ever.
20:22:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I knew a guy who did philosophy-religiony-stuff, but he was just Christian.
20:22:57 <elliott> He is about seventy-five percent that.
20:23:23 <elliott> The discrepancy in percentages can be accounted for by noting that philosophy is so stupid, it takes up more than its share of brain space reserved for stupidity.
20:24:23 <elliott> I would not class cognitive science as philosophy.
20:24:28 <elliott> Because, you know, it's science.
20:24:49 <Phantom_Hoover> I was informed that it involved philosophy by an idiot.
20:24:58 <elliott> Whereas psychology is trying to figure out the answers to questions that nobody knows, with no rules.
20:25:17 <elliott> I doubt my dimwit friend is doing much of it.
20:25:24 <elliott> (Note: My reports of his idiocy are exaggerated.)
20:25:46 <Phantom_Hoover> NB: I'm not actually sure to what degree that guy was an idiot.
20:25:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Although he thinks APT Guy is some kind of programming god, so...
20:27:10 <elliott> DEPRESSING FACT OF THE DAY: Some people actually buy the Chinese room argument.
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20:28:03 <elliott> Sorry. I should stick to less upsetting things.
20:28:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Isn't the Chinese Room Argument the same as saying functions don't express computation because they can be expressed as infinite tuples?
20:28:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I think if you reduced it to "computable functions", and "a symbolic relation", then yes.
20:28:51 <elliott> The hypothetical program is finite in the example, so the infinite set of tuples is fuzzy.
20:28:58 <elliott> But yeah, it's about as stupid ;)
20:38:19 <Phantom_Hoover> The Periodic Table of Videos has a physics sister series.
20:41:08 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> The Periodic Table of Videos has a physics sister series. <-- there are also "backstage science", where he visits "big science" installations in UK. (Particle accelerators and so on)
20:42:01 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH physics videos are less interesting than chemistry, due to physics being much better behaved.
20:42:16 <elliott> Chemistry is so boring and practical, though.
20:42:20 <elliott> (Biology ranking as the MOST BORINGEST.)
20:42:50 <elliott> If one could make a video of the amazing cool shit in PURE MATHEMATICS, that would be the best video.
20:42:56 <elliott> Since this has not yet been accomplished, physics will have to do.
20:42:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Several CAs are biologically based, as are Turing reaction-diffusion systems.
20:43:17 <monqy> pure mathematics is the only way
20:43:29 <Phantom_Hoover> WHERE IS THE PRACTICALITY IN SLIME MOLD ROUTE PLANNING
20:43:45 <elliott> SLIME MOLDS MIGHT LIKE IT I GUESS
20:46:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover HATES MY /MSG
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20:52:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Fridge magnets are more complex than most people think.
20:53:35 <elliott> You have to explain how on earth they count as complex now.
20:53:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how so? Aren't they just something glued onto a think flat magnet?
20:54:29 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh one of those array-whatever ones?
20:54:35 <Vorpal> I forgot the name for it
20:54:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so they use that?
20:54:52 <elliott> OTHER THINGS THAT ARE MORE MAGNETIC ONE ONE SIDE THAN THE OTHER: THE EARTH [TROLLFACE]
20:55:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WELL THE NORTH POLE AND THE SOUTH POLE ARE MORE MAGNETIC THAN THE EQUATOR, Q.E.D.?
20:55:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what about the non-thin variants? With a central round magnet thingy
20:56:00 <Vorpal> elliott, as far as I know they aren't. The magnetism varies locally however, but not in that way I think.
20:56:29 <olsner> magnetism varies locally yes, especially close to magnets
20:56:36 <elliott> Vorpal is an excellent emulation of a brick wall.
20:56:43 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, if it's "in this thread", that doesn't make much sense.
20:56:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: IT'S MEME-IFIED OKAY
20:56:59 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal is an excellent emulation of a brick wall. <-- note: <Phantom_Hoover> What does ITT even mean?
20:57:04 <elliott> olsner: warning: magnets cause magnetism
20:57:15 <elliott> Vorpal: THAT PH IS ALSO A BRICK WALL IS A SEPARATE MATTER
20:57:20 <Vorpal> elliott, that is a common myth
20:57:21 <olsner> I read that it means "I'd tap that", but that also makes little sense
20:57:23 <elliott> Also I have been using ITT in here for, like, seventy years.
20:57:31 <elliott> olsner: I'd so tap that trollface.
20:57:54 <Vorpal> elliott, You. Need. SLEEP.
20:58:06 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes, and it's always slightly confused me, but not to the degree I couldn't just use context.
20:58:06 <elliott> Vorpal: No, there is a thing here.
20:58:09 <olsner> elliott: oh yeah, tap it, tap that trollface
20:58:10 <elliott> I have two separate problems.
20:58:17 <elliott> The problems are lack of sleep, and excess Vorpal.
20:58:23 <elliott> These problems are orthogonal.
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20:58:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I use it vaguely to mean "PLZ TO BE NOTICING:"
20:58:43 <elliott> Or "I AM NOW GOING TO HUMOROUSLY REMIND US OF OUR SUBJECT OF DISCUSSION:"
21:01:38 <Vorpal> <olsner> magnetism varies locally yes, especially close to magnets <-- yes, and some rocks in ground form permanent magnets. Most well known is probably the rock around the ridge in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, where the reversals of the geomagnetic field over geological timescales is famously recorded.
21:02:01 <elliott> can you imagine how unintellectual this channel would be without me
21:02:53 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed, you do add a certain lack of flair, or perhaps a negative flair, when you are sleep deprived.
21:03:12 <elliott> Um excuse me I can be this tasteless whenever.
21:03:17 <elliott> I am just trying to live up to expectations.
21:03:32 <Vorpal> elliott, yes you can, but are you? To a much smaller degree I'd say
21:03:57 <elliott> A priori one cannot say that post hoc ergo propter hoc the diminishing returns would give; yet under quid pro quo one can agglutinate fabula and sujet into vagrancies untold.
21:04:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I think that is intellectu-babel!
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21:04:48 <elliott> `addquote <elliott> A priori one cannot say that post hoc ergo propter hoc the diminishing returns would give; yet under quid pro quo one can agglutinate fabula and sujet into vagrancies untold. <elliott> See? I'm intellectual.
21:04:53 <HackEgo> 370) <elliott> A priori one cannot say that post hoc ergo propter hoc the diminishing returns would give; yet under quid pro quo one can agglutinate fabula and sujet into vagrancies untold. <elliott> See? I'm intellectual.
21:07:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, quite the dog latin indeed
21:07:25 <Phantom_Hoover> (Latin has no word for 'bitch'. It's terribly frustrating.)
21:07:44 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "female dog"?
21:08:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well you could say "female" as a work
21:12:14 <Vorpal> random fact: uplink save games are done by binary serialization. First comes a tag identifying type of object, then comes it's data. Each class Save and a Load function. There are some special functions that seralises a list of such objects and so on
21:12:39 <olsner> Vorpal: OMG THAT IS SO INTERESTING :P
21:12:55 <elliott> i can hardly contain my excitement
21:13:08 <olsner> elliott: I couldn't. At all.
21:13:27 <olsner> Vorpal: random youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtyHC1MaRms
21:14:34 <olsner> Vorpal: it makes perfect sense if you've watched SG-1
21:15:09 <elliott> this is the best worst idea
21:15:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, here http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/48630634d2591
21:16:14 <olsner> Vorpal: a character in the series is played by macgyver, ex post facto hoc propter quid
21:16:31 <elliott> that character being o'neill, who is also known as the alien name "richard dean anderson"
21:16:36 <elliott> which nobody can pronounce
21:17:07 <elliott> olsner: do you know the lyrics to the SG-one theme?
21:17:52 <elliott> Stargate, it's a crazy world / With a great big swirl / Step inside / To another woooooorld
21:18:03 <elliott> We're talking Stargaaate / It's a crazy trip / You can go quite far, and you don't need a car / Or even a ship
21:18:14 <elliott> There's Colonel O'Neil and Carter and Daniel and Teal'c
21:18:22 <elliott> LOOK OUT FOR THAT GGGGGGGGGGGGOUOUOUALD
21:18:42 <elliott> olsner: BEHOLD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqDE8kocoTI
21:20:08 <elliott> btw you will be unable to hear the theme song again ever without hearing those lyrics
21:22:06 <olsner> heh, I've already seen all of SG-1 though
21:22:32 <elliott> olsner plans to never hear the theme song again in his life, ever
21:23:36 <olsner> I'll just edit all my episodes to have the macgyver theme
21:26:15 <olsner> the macgyver theme always gives you that "omg this is gonna be awesome" feeling
22:07:07 <coppro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-analog
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22:10:00 <coppro> ok.. so... it is now 6 pm... fuck q-thoery... study time :(
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22:26:39 <Sgeo_> Aww, Uplink doesn't give the source code away free
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23:12:19 <olsner> <Phantom_Hoover> ANYWAY SLEEP FOR REAL <-- FEEBLE WEAKLING
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00:16:23 * Sgeo_ is looking at the Uplink code
00:16:59 <Sgeo_> Apparently, a certain gateway has anonymity
00:22:18 * Sgeo_ determines that Demo vs Nondemo makes a difference to the compiled binary
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01:33:30 <Gregor> "Support for all forms of whitespace in ECMA-262 7.2: Just like it says in the topic. Although I needed BOM in particular, support for the Ogham space mark will greatly improve compatibility with ancient Irish esotericist JavaScript programmers."
01:50:16 <Sgeo_> Seizure is not the only potential consequence of getting caught
01:53:17 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Caught in the act of what, pray tell?
01:53:28 <Sgeo_> Hacking (in Uplink)
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02:11:43 <pikhq> Hellote, oerjan, lament.
02:15:09 <pikhq> I am convinced that Japanese bands are in a competition for "weirdest name".
02:16:03 <pikhq> "Sakanaction", "the pillows", "B'z", "Bump of Chicken"...
02:16:16 <pikhq> So far, "Bump of Chicken" is winning.
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02:21:43 <Sgeo_> "The system appears to have more security holes than popular 'Micro software' written in the late 20th century."
02:22:01 <Sgeo_> ^^part of a news item if the Global Criminal Database is hacked repeatedl
02:31:50 <Sgeo_> "Further more, there is no record of which real person uses which username."
02:38:09 <coppro> DAMN YOU COMBINATORICS
02:38:12 <coppro> CURSE YOU FOR ALL ETERNITY
02:38:37 <coppro> also, combinatorics is friggin' awesome
03:00:25 <Sgeo_> " The patch is simply a replacement exe file"
03:00:40 <Sgeo_> Considering that the distinction between demo/full is in the exe...
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03:11:20 <pikhq> Linear algebra would be a much nicer class if it didn't have pointless, tedious computation in it.
03:12:41 <pikhq> Not to mention it could have actually useful stuff in it. "Compress this image." :P
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03:18:38 <TeruFSX> wow, plenty of people here
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03:21:15 <pikhq> There usually are.
03:23:09 <TeruFSX> I've never been here before, so it's a bit of a pleasant surprise.
03:23:53 <Sgeo_> Do you know what this place is/
03:24:04 <Sgeo_> Sometimes we get people thinking it's something that it's not.
03:24:24 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Aye, there be that chance.
03:26:22 <TeruFSX> What would they think it was? I know where I am, I came here from the wiki.
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03:27:08 <pikhq> We often get people coming in here thinking it's about esotericism.
03:27:15 <pikhq> Rather than esoteric programming.
03:27:37 <TeruFSX> I just noticed the channel title, actually.
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03:38:16 <pikhq> Aaah, elliott isn't here. That'd do it.
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03:47:13 <pikhq> zzo38: Sure of what?
03:47:41 <zzo38> What it was you were describing.
03:48:12 <pikhq> BTW, s/quite/quiet/
03:48:38 <zzo38> OK. Now I know. Thanks.
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04:20:53 <pikhq> It's pretty funny hearing the claim that I can't believe evolution because it's against my religion.
04:21:13 <pikhq> Last I checked, the only thing against my professed religious beliefs would be a belief in a deity.
04:26:13 <zzo38> Well, some people have not even understand what the religion they claim to be, some of what it actually is, so it can confuse that sometimes.
04:27:55 <oerjan> must... resist... urge... to `addquote
04:28:07 <pikhq> zzo38: Actually, more just funny that they presumed I had a religious faith more than anything else.
04:29:28 <pikhq> Of course, many people seem ignorant that atheism implies the following: {}
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04:34:05 <zzo38> Why do you sometimes get someone join, and then changing host and joined again?
04:34:28 <pikhq> zzo38: The mask is set on identifying to nickserv.
04:34:44 <pikhq> He joined and then identified to nickserv.
04:34:59 <pikhq> It seems that his client is sending both commands roughly simultaneously.
04:35:02 <zzo38> Then you should identify first?
04:35:27 <pikhq> Making it a race condition for whether or not he joins and then gets a host mask.
04:35:49 <zzo38> You have to send a password first, before the USER command and then JOIN?
04:36:11 <pikhq> Yeah, it'd be easy enough to fix.
04:36:22 <pikhq> Just saying that this is what his client is doing. :)
04:36:23 <zzo38> That is, you should use the password field in your IRC client to make it do that and also would make it to not display the password on the screen?
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04:37:59 <oerjan> there might be a race condition even if you send the password first - data probably has to be sent back and forth to freenode's services before you get the cloak?
04:38:18 <oerjan> i vaguely recall something about that, anyhow
04:39:03 <pikhq> oerjan: You could set it up to wait for a reply from nickserv with a sufficiently smart client.
04:39:08 <oerjan> and so it might depend on network lag
04:39:35 <zzo38> Maybe. I do not use the cloak but I do put the password first and then get "This nickname is registered. Please choose a different nickname, or identify via /msg NickServ identify <password>." followed immediately by
04:39:39 <pikhq> Which would actually be necessary to avoid a race condition, actually.
04:39:40 <zzo38> "You are now identified for zzo38."
04:40:00 <oerjan> yeah that last message ought to be enough...
04:40:33 <oerjan> also those messages do seem to show that things take a while to be sorted out
04:40:40 <zzo38> Yes it would seem to me, too. But it sends both messages
04:42:49 <pikhq> My, rum is delicious.
04:44:27 <zzo38> Estimate the number of pages of TeXnicard so far and when it is finished.
04:44:38 <zzo38> Also estimate how many bugs it has.
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04:53:15 <zzo38> Please measure the size of a program in pages.
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05:00:23 <Sgeo_> This episode of SGU sounds a lot like a DS9 plot
05:02:32 <pikhq> China is sitting on enough reserves to buy New York City.
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05:31:18 <zzo38> Can you make ASCII tsume shogi notation, can be number of moves, and the letters, uppercase for firstplayer lowercase for second player with 'B' promote to 'C', 'D' promote to 'E', 'F' to 'G', and so on, and then the pieces available to drop
05:34:58 <pikhq> I don't see why not.
05:35:23 <zzo38> And then it can be made into the diagram with kanji, from that.
05:37:30 <pikhq> A function from ASCII notation to a full board would be trivial, so.
05:38:35 <zzo38> I want to make program for tsume shogi. I played tsume shogi game on GameBoy, too.
05:42:44 <zzo38> Have you ever play tsume shogi?
05:47:21 <pikhq> Though I have played ordinary shougi.
05:49:56 <zzo38> Do you know tsume shogi?
05:51:17 <lament> tsume just means problems
05:51:33 <pikhq> Similar to chess problems, yuh?
05:51:50 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, similar to chess problems. However, in tsume shogi you must give check on every turn.
05:51:51 <pikhq> lament: 詰め has a *lot* of meanings.
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05:55:54 <zzo38> What kind of algorithm would I use to implement futile interposition rule?
05:57:57 <coppro> futile interposition rule?
05:58:01 <zzo38> Futile interposition rule is: It is not allowed to block check by dropping a piece that can just be captured to make check again without changing anything else.
05:58:33 <coppro> Run through every other piece and see if it can move there
05:58:52 <coppro> (or perhaps in shogi, run through every attacking square and see if there is a piece there that can attack)
05:59:09 <coppro> then for each piece that could take, see if it delivers check "without changing anything else"
06:00:25 <zzo38> But there is a few complications
06:01:45 <coppro> You must clearly define what constitutes a futile interposition
06:02:18 <coppro> pikhq: china is rich thanks to your government's incompetence
06:03:00 <coppro> idea: let's cut taxes and increase war spending
06:03:03 <coppro> it's guaranteed to work
06:03:22 <zzo38> Look at this one: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_13/futile.png
06:04:01 <zzo38> Also the bottom of this webpage: http://www.shogi.net/nexus/ladder/help.html
06:04:13 <zzo38> See, there is a trick.
06:04:44 <coppro> I cannot read shogi positions
06:04:50 <coppro> I just read up the futile interposition rule
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06:10:34 <zzo38> Notice I posted the GameBoy tsume shogi. Level 1. 1 move. You can move a dragon king causing discovered check by the angle mover in the corner. Now, a piece can be dropped, will be pinned You have to move to the right place to recapture and win (moving to the right pins the other piece too), and that silver general is not in the promotion zone.
06:15:16 <pikhq> coppro: Problem is too little income from taxes? CUT TAXES! INCREASE WAR SPENDING!
06:15:34 <pikhq> coppro: Problem is too bad of an economy? CUT TAXES! INCREASE WAR SPENDING!
06:15:44 <pikhq> coppro: Everything going just fine? CUT TAXES! INCREASE WAR SPENDING!
06:16:35 <pikhq> coppro: Anyways, shougi is pretty easy. It's like chess, but Japanese. :P
06:17:06 <pikhq> ... Okay, so the brush-stroke
06:17:14 <pikhq> That was supposed to be C-k, not C-j.
06:17:49 <zzo38> What about brush-stroke?
06:18:04 <pikhq> So the brush-stroke font thing doesn't help much.
06:18:10 <pikhq> It's a bit hard to read the characters.
06:18:23 <pikhq> Especially on a low-resolution display.
06:19:01 <zzo38> Yes especially the promoted side is difficult.
06:20:04 <pikhq> Particularly if you're not accustomed to Chinese characters.
06:20:12 <zzo38> Still, they are features of Shogi And Xiangqi I like that Chess does not have, which is the flat pieces. The flat pieces is better way in my opinion.
06:20:52 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Shogi_ryuma.png This does *not* look like 龍馬 to most people. :P
06:22:29 <zzo38> Yes you are correct, the promoted side are written more messy than the unpromoted side, which makes it look unlike it. Usually diagrams, though, use the nonmessy symbols which makes it much easier.
06:22:50 <zzo38> However, GameBoy tsumeshogi has low resolution, which makes it hard to see.
06:23:13 <pikhq> It's using cursive script.
06:23:44 <pikhq> Which is generally hard for even native speakers of a Chinese-character-using-language to read.
06:24:10 <pikhq> (hence why it's only used in a few contexts, largely for artistic effect)
06:28:10 <zzo38> Even English cursive is sometimes written messy; that is, if they are a messy writer, it will be.
06:29:28 <pikhq> Except most English speakers can understand cursive. :P
06:31:07 <pikhq> The glyphs are with little *apparent* connection to the regular script form.
06:31:43 <zzo38> Yes, but sometimes it is very messy and I cannot understand. This happens when they are very messy writers. Sometimes even noncursive is somewhat difficult if they are very messy writers, though.
06:32:04 <pikhq> English cursive is a bit more analogous to Chinese character semicursive script.
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06:41:57 <zzo38> At least, shogi pieces have very commonly the same in different sets, and diagrams usually use noncursive, which means it is less difficult to understand. But still it is the good reason to not use cursive, generally. Shogi can also be made with noncursive and it is also easy to understand.
06:42:39 <zzo38> I have a shogi set but it isn't very good because board is of paper.
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07:23:20 <Ilari> Biggest RIR-level IPv6 allocations in the world: 1x/16, 2x/19, 6x/20, 4x/21, 21x/22. Those all are LIRs or some super-large ISPs.
07:29:45 <Ilari> Wow, together those 34 blocks are 92% of all RIR-allocated IPv6 address space.
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16:02:01 <Vorpal> <Ilari> Wow, together those 34 blocks are 92% of all RIR-allocated IPv6 address space. <-- so that means things are really speeding up?
16:02:21 <Vorpal> Ilari, I predict ipv6 exhaustion in a handful of years (20-30)
16:02:30 <Vorpal> due to allocating too large blocks for routing purposes
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16:21:53 <Ilari> Large blocks are easy to route, it is the small ones that are harder.
16:29:23 <Ilari> APNIC (8x/32+/48 IPv6): 6x1k to Australia, 1k+/32 to China, 1k+/32 to Fiji, 1k+/32 to Hong Kong, 1k+/48 to India, 1k+3x/32 to Japan, 1k to Sri Lanka, /32 to New Zealand. 1k+/32 to Singapore, 2x1k to Thailand, 2+1k to Vietnam.
16:30:22 <Vorpal> Ilari, but too large allocations and we will run out of ipv6 too
16:31:06 <Ilari> How many /48s in a /20?
16:31:46 <Ilari> And there are ~130 000 /20s in current global unicast space.
16:34:53 <Ilari> Well, the point is, even if IPv6 address allocation pracices aren't exactly efficient, there's still metrick shitton of address space (it grows exponentially as more bits are available).
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16:41:34 <elliott> glagolitic capital letter spidery ha
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16:46:20 <elliott> 04:20:53: <pikhq> It's pretty funny hearing the claim that I can't believe evolution because it's against my religion.
16:46:20 <elliott> 04:21:13: <pikhq> Last I checked, the only thing against my professed religious beliefs would be a belief in a deity.
16:46:29 <elliott> That sort of only works if they know you're atheist :P
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16:46:52 <Zwaarddijk> is there a reason to assume some other religious beliefs?
16:47:05 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: pikhq was a Christian until very recently.
16:47:09 <elliott> OK, for really weak values of Christian.
16:47:44 <elliott> 04:29:28: <pikhq> Of course, many people seem ignorant that atheism implies the following: {}
16:47:44 <elliott> Literally, sure, but something like one hundred percent of people identifying as atheists will base it (or at least pretend to base it) on some form of rationalism
16:48:22 <elliott> 05:02:32: <pikhq> China is sitting on enough reserves to buy New York City.
16:48:23 <Zwaarddijk> there are a lot that only pretend to base it on rationalism though
16:48:40 <Zwaarddijk> and wouldn't recognize rationalism if it was explained to them
16:48:42 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: My parenthical and "some form of" were by no means unintentional :P
16:49:17 <elliott> For instance, at RationalWiki, the term "rational" means "what most liberals with a Ph.D. in a science believe".
16:50:06 <Zwaarddijk> I've run into some rather nasty idiots on rationalskepticism.org
16:50:17 <Zwaarddijk> that think they're the rationalest people ever
16:50:36 <oerjan> elliott: like copy/paste from life of brian...
16:50:50 <elliott> At /r/atheism, "rationalism" is pronounced "atheism" and means "mocking the most idiotic Christians".
16:56:30 <cheater_> atheism implies there is no god
16:56:54 <enki-[quit]> people who think atheism is rational tend to think that logical positivism is an attribute of the universe, not an attribute of an epistemological model that a couple popular enlightenment-era thinkers had a hard-on for
16:57:27 <elliott> but atheism doesn't imply rationality.
16:57:31 <elliott> enki-[quit]: not nonsense.
16:58:03 <enki-[quit]> if you have no evidence for or against something's existence, then you have no evidence for or against it. there is no reasonable 'default' belief.
16:58:10 <elliott> enki-[quit]: what is your position on Russell's Teapot?
16:58:15 <elliott> the Invisible Pink Unicorn?
16:58:20 <elliott> come on, these are ancient
16:58:45 <enki-[quit]> elliott: all of those are examples of things with indeterminate existence, not with existence that is known to be false.
16:58:47 <Zwaarddijk> most people that believe in a God of some kind also believe in one that is logically contradictory
16:58:51 <elliott> also, you just said you think probability theory is flat out wrong.
16:59:00 <elliott> enki-[quit]: atheism is not the statement "god is known to not exist"
16:59:02 <enki-[quit]> so while the odds are extremely low, they are not zero
16:59:11 <elliott> it is the statement "god is so unlikely to exist that it is irrelevant to consider the possibility of its existence"
16:59:21 <Zwaarddijk> elliott: for any number of proposed gods, the likelihood is zero
16:59:37 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: because of self-contradiction? that's true
16:59:42 <elliott> but there are subsets of Christianity that are not self-contradicting
16:59:47 <elliott> just so, so incredibly unlikely
17:00:00 <Zwaarddijk> but we can still shave off a huge bunch of proposed gods
17:00:05 <enki-[quit]> elliott: that's not how atheists tend to phrase it. i don't have a problem with non-belief. i have a problem with conflating non-belief with belief in the negation
17:00:21 <elliott> atheism is stronger than not-belief
17:00:39 <elliott> atheism is the position that the likelihood of any god existing is so low that it can be discounted
17:00:56 <elliott> there are people who self-identify as atheists and say this means that "logic disproves god" or wahtever
17:01:01 <elliott> but there is a name for these people, a very old name
17:01:29 <enki-[quit]> i neither believe that russel's teapot exists nor that russel's teapot does not exist. if i could quantify how much it would surprise me if russel's teapot existed, that number would be large.
17:01:58 <elliott> say Russell's Teapot tortures all those who drink tea
17:02:04 <elliott> you would continue living as if it did not exist
17:02:24 <elliott> you have not shown that atheism is irrational, only that a very stupid form of "atheism" is.
17:02:32 <Zwaarddijk> if Russel's teapot existed, I'd be greatly surprised
17:02:41 <enki-[quit]> elliott: if someone believes that the likelyhood of god existing is infinitesimally small but nonzero, they are agnostics, if we are going to be precise.
17:02:54 <elliott> enki-[quit]: ah, you misspelled a word there
17:02:54 <Zwaarddijk> enki-[quit]: no, you're using some weird definitions here
17:02:57 <elliott> replace "if we are going to be precise"
17:03:04 <elliott> "if we ignore what the words actually mean, and just bullshit out way through"
17:03:21 <elliott> an "agnostic", by common meaning, is someone who gives undue weight to the hypothesis of god
17:03:28 <elliott> by being unreasonably and irrationally on-the-fence about it
17:03:36 <elliott> most of them do this because they have no idea what atheism means.
17:03:45 <enki-[quit]> elliott: i'm not really sure where you are getting your personal definition of atheism. it's very strange. i've heard a few other people quote it, when i've had this discussion before.
17:03:46 <elliott> or because they're just idiots
17:04:05 <elliott> enki-[quit]: a few other people quote my "personal" definition of atheism?
17:04:10 <elliott> so maybe it... isn't... personal?
17:04:28 <enki-[quit]> elliott: maybe you all read the same book by an author who explained it poorly?
17:05:57 <elliott> i keep talking to all these people who say a zebra is like a horse but with black and white straps and shit
17:06:11 <elliott> but i know for a fact that a zebra is a type of bedsheet
17:06:23 <elliott> i think they all read "Hey, Zebras Are Actually Kinda like Horses" by Dr. Idiot McMormon
17:06:29 <enki-[quit]> i'm trying to make a distinction between belief in a thing's nonexistence and non-belief in a thing's existence, because the popularity of logical positivism has make a lot of people conflate the two. this tends to come up more often in discussions about atheism, but agnosis is not limited to the question of gods -- it's just a convienient situation in which to bring it up.
17:06:52 <elliott> Try "idiot atheism" for the "Gods definitely (p=one, no rounding errors) do not exist".
17:07:44 <enki-[quit]> elliott: by defining atheism as agnosticism skewed to one side, it makes no clean distinction.
17:08:00 <elliott> wow, you mean language is designed to be useful and reflect what people actually mean,
17:08:03 <elliott> not to be full of useless absolutes?
17:08:24 <elliott> Philosophy has invented enough terms by itself that I'm sure it can come up with a few more for ridiculous hypotheses :)
17:09:11 <enki-[quit]> i don't care what the probabilities people cite are, so long as they aren't limited to zero and one. it's a pet peeve. agnosis in a general sense refers to the eschewing of extremes of probability in one's mental models, and the association with the atheist-theist debate is making it difficult to talk about agnosis outside of that context
17:09:44 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Literally, sure, but something like one hundred percent of people identifying as atheists will base it (or at least pretend to base it) on some form of rationalism
17:09:59 <enki-[quit]> we have more than enough people who are far too sure of themselves. we don't need otherwise reasonable people to start being too sure of themselves too
17:10:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well, let's be fair, "atheism" in common use has the even more general meaning of "areligion...ism".
17:10:47 <elliott> enki-[quit]: ok, there's the probability I cite for any God that more than five people have described as "the Christian God": 0. if you want a precise value, i can sit here pressing the 0 key for about an hour, and then there'll be some digits after that
17:10:53 <enki-[quit]> i have other problems with what you call 'idiot atheists' -- for instance, their abrahamocentrism -- but that's an unrelated issue.
17:11:03 <elliott> abrahamocentrism is a wonderful word
17:11:16 <elliott> abrahamocentrismabahramocentristabrahamocentrbaicbramcioba
17:12:49 <enki-[quit]> i have yet to see one of the big-name atheists talk about a hypothetical god other than the god of abraham. this isn't because abrahamic religions are dominant, because they aren't. they are dominant in those parts of western europe and the americas that are not yet dominantly atheistic, agnostic, or areligious
17:13:05 <enki-[quit]> (i make a distinction between those three terms)
17:13:39 <elliott> hmm, The God Delusion was a pretty generic argument, but "big-name atheists" are irrelevant IMO
17:13:55 <enki-[quit]> to the question of 'is there a god', the respective answers are: no, maybe, and fish
17:14:10 <elliott> most of them are surely pretty smart people, but most of the new trend of atheist books are fluff
17:14:13 <Phantom_Hoover> <enki-[quit]> i have yet to see one of the big-name atheists talk about a hypothetical god other than the god of abraham. this isn't because abrahamic religions are dominant, because they aren't. they are dominant in those parts of western europe and the americas that are not yet dominantly atheistic, agnostic, or areligious
17:16:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Christianity and Islam total 3.5 billion adherants, according to WP at least.
17:16:13 <enki-[quit]> elliott: unfortunately, intelligence in other areas appears to have no correlation with ability to counter one's own confirmation bias. i've seen pretty smart people get sucked into obscure religious sects and waste their skills on elaborate attempts at proving the earth is flat mathematically
17:16:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm curious as to how you arrived at the conclusion that they are not 'dominant'.
17:16:39 <elliott> enki-[quit]: True. Evolutionary biologists are pretty well-guarded against creationism, though.
17:16:57 <elliott> (I know of exactly one creationist evolutionary biologist, and he's a Discovery Institute shill.)
17:17:29 <enki-[quit]> they are clearly capable of formulating a proof, and working one out. but, they have taken it as axiomatic that the earth is flat and then continue on from there, discarding results that don't confirm their axioms
17:17:47 <enki-[quit]> Phantom_Hoover: what are the two most populous nation-states on earth?
17:18:29 <enki-[quit]> (the answer is china and india. you shouldn't have had to look that up. shame on you)
17:19:00 <elliott> yelling at someone when they don't respond instantly is moronic
17:19:13 <elliott> PH rarely does to anyone because, y'know, not everyone has the IRC window focussed all the time
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17:19:43 <elliott> his Wi-Fi drops all the time.
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17:19:45 <Phantom_Hoover> 17:17:47: <enki-[quit]> Phantom_Hoover: what are the two most populous nation-states on earth?
17:19:46 <Phantom_Hoover> 17:18:29: <enki-[quit]> (the answer is china and india. you shouldn't have had to look that up. shame on you)
17:20:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Making me miss people making facile arguments and act entitled to an immediate answer.
17:20:50 <enki-[quit]> look at the religious makeup of china and india. look at the religious makeup of europe, and keep in mind that numbers for lutheranism are skewed upwards in scandanavia.
17:21:12 <Phantom_Hoover> enki-[quit], like I said, the lower bound from WP's figures for religious adherence to Christianity and Islam is 3.5 billion.
17:21:32 <Phantom_Hoover> That's over half of the world population, unless it exceeded 7 billion and I didn't notice.
17:22:06 <elliott> *shrug*: the universal counterargument.
17:22:48 <enki-[quit]> add judaism and what percentage would you reckon that is?
17:23:23 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a non-entity as far as proportions are concerned.
17:24:16 <elliott> they could start their own nation
17:24:35 <enki-[quit]> so, these people are addressing the half of the world that they have the least likelyhood of convincing, and ignoring the rest?
17:25:33 <elliott> enki-[quit]: most people don't address the entire world
17:25:36 <elliott> for instance, they speak in English
17:25:38 <elliott> this also limits their market
17:25:38 <Phantom_Hoover> The rest is considerably more fragmented, so you can't make generalised arguments.
17:26:00 <elliott> Supported Operating Systems
17:26:00 <elliott> Microsoft Windows 98/SE/ME/2000/XP/Vista/7
17:26:05 <elliott> I'll have to downgrade my kernel
17:26:07 <elliott> for this external hard drive
17:26:53 <Phantom_Hoover> BtW, India and China combined are only slightly over a third of the world's population, not the crushing majority you seem to think they are.
17:27:22 <olsner> I am 100% of the population of my world
17:27:49 <Vorpal> <elliott> I'll have to downgrade my kernel
17:27:50 <Vorpal> <elliott> for this external hard drive
17:28:01 <Vorpal> elliott, where was it from?
17:28:09 <elliott> oerjan: let me bring up for the seventeenth time
17:28:11 <Phantom_Hoover> (I assume this is where you live because you're Swedish and hence must live somewhere with huge seasonal temperature variations.)
17:28:12 <elliott> oerjan: solipsist missionaries
17:28:14 <elliott> would be the best thing ever
17:28:15 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah I mean what product
17:28:35 <elliott> Vorpal: let me find the window :D
17:28:49 <elliott> http://www.scan.co.uk/products/320gb-intenso-6002510-super-slim-external-25-hdd-usb-20-5400-rpm-8mb-cache-bus-powered-black
17:28:51 <oerjan> elliott: hey it _could_ make sense... they're tired of their illusion spreading falsehoods...
17:29:02 <elliott> I'm just trying to find the cheapest external hard drive that's over two-hundred-and-fifty gigs.
17:29:17 <elliott> oerjan: "What I'm saying is: You are the only person who exists. Just you."
17:29:22 <elliott> oerjan: "I'm not real. I'm a figment of your imagination."
17:29:42 <elliott> oerjan: Response: "So are... you a solipsist?"
17:29:49 <elliott> "Absolutely. You're just a figment of my imagination."
17:30:00 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: sweden => cold => THE MOON?
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17:34:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, yes, but it also gets incredibly hot on the moon during the (12-day-long) day, and I hear summers in Sweden are very warm.
17:34:22 <Zwaarddijk> elliott: I tihnk what's needed to get the previous debate working is a good grasp of what a language game is.
17:34:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, thus clearly Egypt is the moon
17:34:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway, Norway is pretty much the same as Sweden there
17:34:59 <Phantom_Hoover> (I live on Cruithne, since I have a great affinity for things with unpronounceable Irish names.)
17:36:00 <elliott> Well, it explains your name, Adhamhnáin McCool
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17:36:25 <elliott> (Please tell me your name is actually accented like that.)
17:37:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: PLEASE TELL ME HOW TO PROOUNCE YOUR FIRST NAME
17:37:33 <olsner> elliott: isn't it just "Phantom"?
17:37:34 <elliott> DO YOU GET ANNOYED WHEN PEOPLE MISPRONOUNCE IT
17:37:48 <elliott> olsner: Adhamhnáin McCool, pronounced "Phantom Hoover"
17:37:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I WILL MISPRONOUNCE IT UNLESS YOU TEACH ME
17:38:09 <elliott> Well, McCool has the oo from Hoover, so it sounds kind of similar.
17:38:19 <elliott> And if you really muffle Adhamhnáin, it sounds like Phantom pronounced really stuttery.
17:39:07 <elliott> HOW ARE SD CARD TRANSFER RATES
17:39:29 <elliott> there are no two-hundred-anf-fifty-gig sd cards
17:39:29 * oerjan notes that irish pronunciation is just weird enough that Adhamhnáin _might_ have been pronounced like phantom
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17:39:39 <elliott> Vorpal: Just dreading copying tens of tens of gigabytes over USB Two :)
17:39:54 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm watching last episode of Cosmos. Got any actual message?
17:40:01 <olsner> tens of tens!? that's like HUNDREDS
17:40:02 <elliott> Vorpal: I ASKED A QUESTION
17:40:12 <elliott> Vorpal: BTW CARL SAGAN DIES AT THE END
17:40:22 <elliott> (HE WAS THE COSMOS ALL ALONG)
17:40:26 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway SD card would depend on the card and the reader
17:41:09 <oerjan> choking on an apple pie
17:41:12 <elliott> Actually I could probably get away with only copying a fraction of things.
17:41:17 <elliott> OS X home folder, and this home folder.
17:41:30 <elliott> AND THEN I MUST WIPE EVERYTHING
17:41:35 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, why does the trasfer speed matter? You can easily let it run while doing other stuff. This is what we who work in the area of computers call "multi-tasking"
17:41:58 <Vorpal> elliott, DMA. It doesn't much slow down what else you do
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17:42:40 <elliott> Vorpal: I mean slow in general.
17:43:06 <elliott> Like, what's USB Two's theroretical maximum?
17:43:13 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but for your use case, why does it matter much
17:43:24 <elliott> A high-speed (USB 2.0) rate of 480 Mbit/s (~57 MB/s) was introduced in 2001. All hi-speed devices are capable of falling back to full-bandwidth operation if necessary; they are backward compatible. Connectors are identical.
17:43:31 <elliott> OK, well that's bullshit, there's no way I'd get anywhere near that.
17:43:51 <elliott> Vorpal: Because I'd like to send it back sooner rather than later?
17:43:57 <elliott> Vorpal: And because I have to be there to reinstall when it finishes.
17:44:01 <elliott> And doing it overnight would be annoying.
17:44:05 <Vorpal> elliott, well what will it take? A couple of hours?
17:44:11 <elliott> And if I need to reboot, I'm fucked.
17:44:17 <elliott> At least, I need to restart X all the time, and can't use the console.
17:44:19 <elliott> I could change my password.
17:44:21 <Vorpal> elliott, you could easily use rsync
17:44:35 <elliott> I could do it from the console, but STILL
17:44:46 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway why would you need to reboot?
17:44:56 <Vorpal> 19:44:13 up 17 days, 5:34, 19 users, load average: 1.14, 1.15, 1.59
17:44:56 <fizzie> SD cards don't tend to saturate USB 2.0 anyway. (SDHC "speed classes" go from 2 up to 10 MB/s == 80 Mbps.)
17:45:22 <fizzie> (For some sort of sustained-write speed, if you trust the manufacturer.)
17:45:46 <elliott> Vorpal: (A) I don't give a shit about your digi-penis[caret]Wuptime. (B) Kernel upgrades, bad hardware support leading to instability, etc.
17:46:04 <elliott> (C) At least, I have to restart X sometimes multiple times a day, no matter what window manager, because of bad hardware support.
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17:46:14 <olsner> oh my: "What is the difference between git and cvs version control systems? I have been happily using CVS for over 10 years and have been told that GIT is much better."
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17:46:32 <elliott> (D) I don't know, I can't predict the future.
17:46:57 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway the disk is slower than 480 MBit/s probably
17:46:58 <olsner> otoh, if you've *happily* used CVS for that long, you obviously barely even need version control
17:47:02 <elliott> Vorpal: [caret]W erases the previous word. Lern-to-emacs.
17:47:14 <elliott> Or even just lern[two]shell.
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17:47:28 <Vorpal> elliott, right, I thought it was like your X for !
17:47:39 <elliott> NonsenseXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
17:48:38 <Sgeo_> The following directories were created:
17:48:38 <Sgeo_> %UserProfile%\WINDOWS
17:48:38 <Sgeo_> %UserProfile%\WINDOWS\system
17:51:12 <Phantom_Hoover> <olsner> oh my: "What is the difference between git and cvs version control systems? I have been happily using CVS for over 10 years and have been told that GIT is much better."
17:51:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Although I don't use any VCS, so I only do it in a theoretical way.
17:51:40 <elliott> That is because you have no idea what version control is or how it works :P
17:52:14 <elliott> "Consider this to be your dismaying PSA of the day: Apparently, if you're a Kindle owner with a magazine subscription, and you decide to stop subscribing, the back issues you previously downloaded are also lost—for good."
17:52:22 * elliott checks Engadget to see if it's actually true
17:53:55 <olsner> old news - if you buy a book and they later stop selling it: bam! no book for you
17:54:33 <olsner> applies for all these e-book readers that are integrated into online thingies: the only safe way to use them is for pirated books
17:55:19 <elliott> olsner: Well, the only sensible thing to do when moving to a medium with the immense power of infinite copying is... to restrict copying and viewing even further.
17:55:36 <elliott> Not only is water not wet, it's a good towel, dammit.
17:58:42 <fizzie> Good towel: http://www.shopperhive.co.uk/compare/natural-collection-santens-bamboo-and-cotton-shower-towel-prices
17:59:06 <elliott> I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHY YOU LINKED THAT
17:59:13 <fizzie> What! It's a good towel.
17:59:13 <elliott> ARE YOU JUST RECOMMENDING SOME TOWELS YOU LIKE
17:59:29 <elliott> IF THEY ARE SO GOOD AT TOWELING
17:59:31 <fizzie> Currently not available, please try again later!
17:59:40 <elliott> DID YOU BUY ALL THE TOWELS FIZZIE
17:59:56 <fizzie> There were those towels in a hotel in Belgium, that's all I know.
18:00:11 <fizzie> You could say the made an impression!
18:00:15 <elliott> Yes, when I'm in Belgian hotels, the thing I think about most is the quality of the towels.
18:00:24 <elliott> fizzie: Do Finns have towels?
18:00:28 <elliott> I guess if they don't that would explain int.
18:00:43 <elliott> "Oh, I'm wet. Guess I'll go to the sauna and MELT THE WETNESS"
18:00:45 <fizzie> No, we just dry ourself to some tree-bark.
18:01:17 <elliott> Nothing like a good tree-barking after you jump into ice-cold water after you come out of the sauna.
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18:28:22 <elliott> <Younder> 'data Maybe a = Nothing | Just a ' seems like awkward way of defining generalized boolean. Well that is the prose for static typing I guess.
18:28:24 <elliott> <Younder> dmwit, Like in Lisp. All types are a subtype of t except nil which is a subtype of null.
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18:35:15 <elliott> <crystal-cola> the poeple in #python nput me off of python
18:35:22 <elliott> <crystal-cola> this channel sucks
18:35:25 <elliott> [more of that in hash-haskell]
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18:35:30 <elliott> <crystal-cola> people are naturally horrible to each other
18:35:39 <elliott> <Veinor> one of the guys in #python-ops says crystal-cola has just been spamming python-ops with
18:35:46 <elliott> our friend is alive and well :D
18:41:54 <Vorpal> in summary, Cosmos. Is pure awesome.
18:42:08 <elliott> cosmos isn't made out of awesome
18:42:21 <elliott> see i can be as tasteless as i like even when i've slept
18:42:23 <Vorpal> elliott, ... I meant the movies
18:42:34 <elliott> vorpal calls episodes of a tv series movies
18:43:21 <Vorpal> elliott, yes. I never claimed you couldn't be tasteless. I just claimed you do it a lot more when sleep deprived... Though I'm sure you are also capable of temporarily reversing it just to prove a point.
18:45:50 <elliott> wow j-invariant is annoying
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19:09:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You misspelled "insanity".
19:09:21 <olsner> I don't remember j-invariant, what did it do?
19:09:35 <elliott> olsner: j-invariant left because it went public that we knew who they were.
19:09:45 <elliott> olsner: whatever-fax-was-called-at-the-time beforehand left because of being banned.
19:09:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, it was a pretty ... hectic... day for them.
19:10:02 <elliott> they were whining in hash-haskell about the pointlessness of all programming waah waah
19:10:08 <elliott> and got temp-banned for not STFUing
19:10:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but they're still in hash-haskell now, and haven't returned here.
19:10:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Something to do with trying to solve the halting problem in limited cases and not communicating it clearly enough to avoid looking like an idiot.
19:11:38 <elliott> olsner: Anyway, previous-fax left because Phantom_Hoover said they "failed at [Conway's Game of] Life", and they took it rather too literally, spamming pages of "FUCK YOU" at him in-channel.
19:12:31 <elliott> By left, I mean got banned and didn't return post-unban.
19:13:07 <Phantom_Hoover> To be fair, soupdragon's point which lead to that remark was an interesting one I've considered before, but I couldn't resist the pun.
19:14:45 <Phantom_Hoover> There is a stage version of Jeff Wayne's Musical Version of the War of the Worlds.
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19:39:37 <elliott> bleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh
19:39:44 <elliott> Haskell's typeclass system is far too weak for this
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19:48:29 <Vorpal> elliott, why don't you use the on screen keyboard btw?
19:49:20 <Vorpal> elliott, surely it can be found in your launcher menu, gnome, kde or whatever you use?
19:50:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that game you mentioned... How realistic are the physics?
19:50:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the combat is a deliberate clone of the original Spacewars'.
19:50:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm. I don't remember what sort of physics it has
19:52:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: IT SHOULD IMITATE ASTEROIDS II INSTEAD
19:52:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Also: since when did I have only 12GB of free space on my home partition.
19:53:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BTW the Asteroids II bullets totally need to be fully-fledged objects.
19:53:10 <elliott> BULLETS BENDING DUE TO IMMENSE GRAVITY
19:53:32 <elliott> I foresee the top-ranking Asteroids II players spending whole matches in severe nested time dilation and insane gravity.
19:53:48 <elliott> Where it becomes a non-realtime strategy game :P
19:54:08 <Zwaarddijk> it would be pretty awesome to manage to have time dilation in some game
19:54:13 <Phantom_Hoover> My planned hierarchy for masses basically starts from generic massive body with inertia but not gravity.
19:54:17 <Zwaarddijk> in a way that still maintains real-time strategy stuff
19:54:25 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: That's what's planned in Asteroids II, though your camera is always outside the dilation.
19:54:36 <elliott> So you just see everything in your bubble going slowly, and move slowly.
19:54:50 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: An expected strategy is to make a time dilation bubble around your opponent, then circle around it firing bullets.
19:54:53 <Phantom_Hoover> It's kinda-sorta possible, but only assuming infinite processor speed or breakdown at edge cases.
19:55:05 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: Sure, the bullets will go slowly inside, but you can fire them at such speed that your opponent is pretty helpless.
19:55:08 <Zwaarddijk> I presume breakdown at edge cases is what you have to go for
19:55:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: We can handle "dilation" (not real dilation) as a special-case.
19:55:39 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: Phantom_Hoover has a tech demo which proves that two-dimensional Newtonian works properly with gravity.
19:55:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Zwaarddijk, i.e. you can't be going at 0.99999999999999c and have a billion years of stuff happen in a second.
19:55:54 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: It is some Lisp code that prints out a bunch of tuples quickly.
19:56:01 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: (oklopol said it wouldn't work.)
19:56:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, yeah, it'd be fixed in Asteroids II.
19:56:25 <elliott> Once you're going slow enough that nothing will move for a year, you're pretty much done :P
19:56:31 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, TbH, I'm not strictly speaking emulating Newtonian gravity in that sim.
19:56:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but it's two-dimensional gravity.
19:56:43 <elliott> And the rest is Newtonian.
19:56:48 <elliott> And that's close enough for a game.
19:56:59 <elliott> How did your restructure go, btw? Not even started yet? :P
19:57:05 <Zwaarddijk> I guess what really will ruin it though
19:57:17 <Zwaarddijk> is that you're going to end up having a privileged frame
19:57:25 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: Yes we are, because it's a game :)
19:57:30 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: A multiplayer game.
19:58:00 <elliott> Zwaarddijk: Anyway, the main thing is the gravity and the Newtonianness.
19:58:10 <elliott> Yes, that would be cool, but would require dilating the user and their computer.
19:58:10 <Zwaarddijk> then you'd run into greatly weird stuff
19:58:18 <elliott> SCIENCE CANNOT YET PERFORM SUCH FEATS
19:58:24 <Zwaarddijk> sure it's entirely impossible to emulate dilation?
19:58:37 <Zwaarddijk> not just dilation wrt priviliged frame
19:59:00 <elliott> i.e. everyone else gets to see what you're going to do five seconds in the future.
19:59:31 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> How did your restructure go, btw? Not even started yet? :P
19:59:42 <Phantom_Hoover> No, since I'd like to have a clear picture of the kinds of objects first.
20:00:03 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: You realise OOP is sort of designed to allow extensibility after-the-fact? :P
20:00:25 <elliott> I guess you need the initial hierarchy down, though.
20:01:27 <ais523> elliott: something that might amuse you: someone in #nethack was complaining that vi didn't do vikeys properly
20:01:31 <ais523> they were trying to move diagonally
20:01:46 <elliott> hey coppro, http://i.imgur.com/m0PSa.jpg
20:02:07 <ais523> (of course, it's sort-of unsurprising that Emacs does actually have methods of moving diagonally if required, in certain modes)
20:02:26 <elliott> hmm, does ais523 play Magic the Gathering? I have no idea
20:02:35 <ais523> elliott: I used to, I don't any mroe
20:02:39 <elliott> hey ais523, http://i.imgur.com/m0PSa.jpg
20:02:42 <ais523> because they put out two bad expansions in arow
20:03:18 <elliott> apparently that card is worth over six hundred dollars :)
20:03:19 <olsner> elliott: Vorpal probably does
20:03:23 <ais523> there's something silly about a card so rare it's valuable, and so good it's banned from pretty much every tournament
20:03:27 <elliott> olsner: that would require him having friends
20:03:36 <elliott> ais523: YOU'RE MEANT TO BE IN ANGUISH OVER THE FOLDING
20:03:39 <ais523> you'd expect a card so good people aren't allowed to play with it to be not all that useful
20:03:51 <olsner> elliott: isn't there a single-player version? :)
20:03:54 <ais523> elliott: well, if it's that expensive, it must be from the limited edition alpha set
20:03:58 <olsner> or maybe you can use them as tarot cards
20:04:16 <elliott> ais523: and in beta, it seems xD
20:04:23 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/85/Black_lotus.jpg
20:04:33 <elliott> that description doesn't look particularly powerful, but i have no idea about mtg or anything
20:04:35 <ais523> and as those cards are a different shape from the other sets, you have to put them in deck protectors that hide the difference
20:04:58 <ais523> elliott: put it this way: Dark Ritual is so good it's banned
20:05:09 <ais523> and it has the same effect, except restricted to black, and at a cost of one black mana
20:05:51 <elliott> they should introduce a card that does Gödel's number damage to EVERYTHING YOUR OPPONENT HAS EVER
20:06:04 <elliott> then have some ridiculously implausible way to boost health past Gödel's number
20:06:11 <elliott> tada, new rung of top players
20:06:15 <elliott> note: again, i have no idea about mtg or anything
20:07:20 <Gregor> I stand steadfastly by the notion that the fact that somebody will pay $600 for something does not mean that it's worth $600 :P
20:07:39 <elliott> Gregor: it sort of does, by definition
20:07:51 <elliott> if you had a black lotus, you could sell it for six hundred dollars
20:07:55 <elliott> therefore, it's worth six hundred dollars to you
20:07:57 <elliott> therefore, it's worth six hundred dollars to everyone
20:08:17 <Gregor> But /I/ wouldn't pay $600 for it, so it's /not/ worth $600 to me.
20:08:33 <elliott> Gregor: It is, because if you had it, you could get six hundred dollars for it.
20:08:44 <elliott> Similarly, your house is worth whatever it would sell for, regardless of what you bought it for.
20:08:56 <elliott> Traded in a house for a paperclip? Irrelevant, it's still worth whatever it would sell for.
20:09:17 <olsner> does that make the paperclip expensive or the house cheap?
20:09:26 <Gregor> LACK OF INTRINSICS INFURIATES ME
20:11:28 <elliott> Gregor: BECOME A DEONTOLOGIST
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20:11:49 <Vorpal> <olsner> elliott: Vorpal probably does <-- do what?
20:12:50 <olsner> (and don't try to deny it!)
20:13:25 <Vorpal> olsner, I find card games boring, and the commercialism of the constant releases of add-ons and so on sickens me.
20:13:31 <Vorpal> trade card games in general do
20:14:02 <elliott> CARD GAMES ARE A TOOL OF THE MAN
20:14:06 <elliott> TO OPPRESS THE PROLETARIAT
20:14:11 <elliott> LET'S START A COMMUNIST CARD GAME
20:14:18 <elliott> ALL THE CARDS IN EXISTENCE ARE DIVIDED EQUALLY BETWEEN EVERY PLAYER
20:14:23 <elliott> AND EVERY CARD IS EXACTLY AS POWERFUL AS EVERY OTHER CARD
20:14:28 <Vorpal> elliott, well the issue is mostly that the game play becomes about how many cards you bought
20:14:30 <olsner> Vorpal: i.e. you find them funny although you realize they should be boring, and it sickens you that you buy all cards of every new release despite the obvious commercialism
20:14:53 <Vorpal> elliott, I mean, if they were shared between the players like an add-on to many other games it would be different
20:15:05 <Vorpal> olsner, I don't own any such cards. :P
20:15:34 <olsner> that is exactly what an owner of such cards would say
20:15:51 <Vorpal> olsner, D&D is a lot more fun.
20:16:42 <elliott> and D[and]D ISN'T commercial?
20:17:31 <Vorpal> elliott, it is. But buying more of a resource from the company doesn't give you an advantage over the other player(s)
20:17:46 <Vorpal> elliott, that is the bit that sickens me
20:18:23 <elliott> PEOPLE WILLINGLY SPENDING MONEY AND THEN WILLINGLY PLAYING A GAME???
20:18:40 <Vorpal> elliott, I have absolutely nothing against add-ons that are sold for money. There are quite a few for D&D. But they don't exhibit that property I just described.
20:19:12 <Vorpal> elliott, also you are doing a wildly inaccurate strawman atm
20:19:45 <fizzie> I think I own some MTG cards (some sort of a "starter set" thing-thing thing), but I have never actually played a game of it.
20:20:10 <elliott> omg there is a site that measures how long you listen to nyancat
20:20:16 <elliott> TOTALLY GONNA BREAK THE RECORD
20:20:34 <fizzie> (Maybe reading the Microprose's Magic: The Gathering lparchive.org epic counts, though.)
20:20:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh. Is there any game there is no lp on?
20:22:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: I was about to say "I haven't seen a Skyroads LP, for example", but seems that there is one in the You Tube.
20:22:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, isn't it the one that requires about perfect timing?
20:22:46 <elliott> Skyroads is that thing Ilari was rendering.
20:23:04 <fizzie> The actual game is through-playable by mortals, but the Xmas extra levels are... something else.
20:23:29 <fizzie> Quick googling says there's at least a couple of Finnish shareware games I know of that don't seem to have letsplay thingsies.
20:23:30 <Vorpal> Hey! there is non on NWN1
20:23:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdcF5ZpCKL0 ?
20:23:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, I meant on lparchive there
20:24:07 <fizzie> Well, sure, there's quite a lot of games that aren't on lparchive.
20:24:17 <elliott> "Bluemoon's creation of SkyRoads is a polished-up remake of the game Kosmonaut. The three months spent working on it paid off when the shareware title was released in 1993, selling internationally and getting LCR distribution deals from the U.S. to Taiwan.
20:24:17 <elliott> The game's interface is an instant hit with downloaders."
20:24:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, most good ones are. I haven't seen df lp on youtube
20:24:31 <Vorpal> it would be boring anyway
20:24:42 <elliott> There's no Eversion LP on the archive.
20:24:53 <elliott> It wouldn't be nearly as hilarious as the jewtubes.
20:25:30 <fizzie> Also I did a thing; earlier I've only ever looked at Homestuck without sounds; now I went through http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/Sound and klickeded most of the links. The flash bits were ridiculously epic before; with the music, they were positively ludicrous.
20:26:06 <elliott> Bahahaha at Homestuck without the sounds.
20:26:35 <Vorpal> is there any video lp of nethack? there are text ones on lparchive
20:27:02 <Vorpal> oh wait, one of them is videos
20:27:02 <fizzie> I don't tend to bother with sound. If I leave the headphones visible, the cat chews on the cord, and taking them out of a box is So Demanding(tm).
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20:27:25 <elliott> fizzie: Compared to the time investment that Homestuck poses? :P
20:27:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, wouldn't cat chew on other wires too? Like keyboard cable or power cable?
20:27:48 <Vorpal> elliott, DOESN'T SOLVE POWER CABLE
20:28:12 <fizzie> elliott: Yeah, well... I try to sort of avoid thinking about how much time it wastes.
20:28:35 <elliott> fizzie: I have a hypothesis that it is impossible to keep up with Homestuck without having your life revolve around Homestuck.
20:28:57 <elliott> I AM DREADING THE PART AFTER I FINALLY FINISH MY ARCHIVE BINGE (i.e. keeping up with like over fifteen panels per day).
20:29:15 <fizzie> elliott: I only look at it every two months or so, and then have to stay awake to 05am or so to catch up.
20:29:43 <elliott> fizzie: I am now imagining Archive Binge adding Homestuck upon its completion.
20:30:09 <elliott> fizzie: "At one panel per day, it will take you sixteen years to read the entire archive."
20:30:18 <elliott> (Assuming an extremely conservative six-thousand final panel count.)
20:31:15 <fizzie> It's at 3700-and-something now.
20:32:11 <fizzie> That's already 10+ years for page-a-day-keeps-the-doctor... busy?
20:32:59 <elliott> fizzie: OMG I am going to raise any child I have on the diet of one Homestuck per day.
20:33:03 <elliott> By the end, e might even understand it.
20:33:20 <elliott> Starting on eir thirteen birthday.
20:33:24 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I am curious as to how you plan to acquire this child.
20:33:40 <elliott> THAT'S TOTALLY WORTH FORCING THEM TO STAY AT HOME AND READ IT UNTIL THEY'RE TWENTY-NINE
20:33:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: DO THEY HAVE... EGG BANKS
20:34:24 <elliott> AND THEN IMPLANT IT INTO MYSELF I GUESS
20:35:37 <elliott> https://gist.github.com/925584
20:35:45 <elliott> THE BABY DOESN'T NEED A WOMB
20:35:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Wait, I could just do it the Homestuck wa y.
20:36:10 <elliott> Ol pybavat zlfrys naq fraqvat gurz onpx va gvzr. V guvax.
20:36:45 <elliott> I NEED AN EXCLAMATION MARK
20:36:56 <elliott> THANKS ACOWLEY FROM HASH HASKELL
20:37:37 <elliott> CARET-NR DOES THAT TOO ANYWAY
20:37:57 <elliott> http://koweycode.blogspot.com/2011/04/why-darcs-users-care-about-consistency.html ;; BITCH NEEDS SCAPEGOAT
20:38:44 <fungot> `1234567890-=~!@#$%^&*()_+
20:39:19 * Vorpal writes a elliott-CAPS filter
20:39:38 <elliott> Vorpal: I'LL USE FULL-WIDTH IF YOU DO THAT
20:39:58 <Vorpal> elliott, fail. I already have a conversion filter in place for that :P
20:39:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Japanese Latin alphabet stuff.
20:40:06 <elliott> Vorpal: And do they cascade?
20:40:13 <Vorpal> elliott, what do you mean?
20:40:23 <elliott> It'll filter out the full-width but will it then filter out the capitals?
20:40:44 <Vorpal> elliott, well that would be trivial to do by putting the caps filter after the full width one
20:41:08 <elliott> I could get around any filter trivially.
20:41:23 <Vorpal> elliott, depends on if you know it
20:42:49 <fizzie> Pre-apologies for a three-line spam that probably won't look correct for all/most/many/any.
20:42:50 <Vorpal> ah I had an awesome idea for an additional heuristic for it. Well, that will take a bit to implement (say, 10 minutes)
20:42:51 <fizzie> ▌▌▌ ▄ ▟▖ ▄ ▌ ▗ ▖▖▟▖ ▌▗ ▝ ▄ ▗▖ ▟▖▌ ▝ ▗▖ ▟▖▗ ▄ ▖▖▗ ▝ ▌ ▗▖▝ ▐ ▟▖▗ ▖▖▗▖▀▖
20:42:51 <fizzie> █▌▛▖▄▌▐ ▄▌▛▖▌▌▌▌▐ ▞▌▌▌▐ ▌▌▚▌ ▐ ▛▖▐ ▘▖ ▐ ▌▌ ▄▌▚▘▌▌▐ ▞▌ ▙ ▐ ▐ ▐ ▛▘▛ ▘▖▝
20:42:51 <fizzie> ▘▘▘▘▀▘ ▘ ▀▘▀ ▝ ▝▘ ▘ ▝▘▝ ▝ ▘▘▄▘ ▘▘▘▝ ▀ ▘▝ ▀▘▝ ▝ ▝ ▝▘ ▘ ▝ ▘ ▘▝▘▘ ▀ ▝
20:43:03 <elliott> fizzie: looks awesome in proportional font
20:43:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Wasting his time to make a stupid point since forever.
20:43:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, True. But if you do that too much someone is going to kick you
20:43:40 <Vorpal> hm actually this is easier.
20:43:50 <Vorpal> okay, first version in place
20:44:00 <Vorpal> elliott, it doesn't target just you, it targets everyone
20:44:13 <fizzie> tr A-Z a-z ← 0th version.
20:44:17 <elliott> _ _ _ _ _____ ___ ____ _____ _ _ _ _ _ _____ _____ _ __ __
20:44:17 <elliott> | | | | \ | | ___/ _ \| _ \_ _| | | | \ | | / \|_ _| ____| | \ \ / /
20:44:17 <elliott> | | | | \| | |_ | | | | |_) || | | | | | \| | / _ \ | | | _| | | \ V /
20:44:17 <elliott> | |_| | |\ | _|| |_| | _ < | | | |_| | |\ |/ ___ \| | | |___| |___| |
20:44:17 <elliott> \___/|_| \_|_| \___/|_| \_\|_| \___/|_| \_/_/ \_\_| |_____|_____|_|
20:44:19 <elliott> ___ _____ __ _____ _ _ _ _____ __ _____ ____ _ __
20:44:21 <elliott> |_ _|_ _| \ \ / / _ \| \ | ( )_ _| \ \ / / _ \| _ \| |/ /
20:44:23 <elliott> | | | | \ \ /\ / / | | | \| |/ | | \ \ /\ / / | | | |_) | ' /
20:44:25 <elliott> | | | | \ V V /| |_| | |\ | | | \ V V /| |_| | _ <| . \ _
20:44:27 <elliott> |___| |_| \_/\_/ \___/|_| \_| |_| \_/\_/ \___/|_| \_\_|\_(_)
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20:45:19 <Vorpal> elliott, bonus: now I cut down on the rate you can write in. Much less information possible in the same number of IRC lines now
20:46:11 <Vorpal> http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/imgs/city_83.png
20:46:20 <elliott> If you actually just wanted to filter them out, you'd shut up and do it, but you're clearly just trying to irritate me since that's pretty much you only use ":)" after attempting to prove me wrong.
20:46:26 <Vorpal> that is a pretty realistic city plan
20:46:31 <Vorpal> (procedural of course)
20:46:37 <elliott> Soooo... you're kind of just giving me an incentive to work around it in the most annoying way possible
20:46:58 <Vorpal> elliott, you get riled up too easily
20:47:29 <elliott> I'm not riled up, but you're clearly trying to rile me up, and it's an idiotic enough attempt to make me want to flip it around.
20:47:56 <Vorpal> elliott, oh I'm not riled up :P
20:48:57 <ais523> elliott: I can read your ASCII art despite the oroportional font
20:49:05 <ais523> well, despite my proportional font
20:49:17 <ais523> it's very distorted, but not so much that the brain can't reconstruct what it must be saying
20:50:26 <elliott> VORPAL: WHY NOT CHECK YOUR /MSGS?
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20:51:31 <Vorpal> elliott, uh, what about it?
20:51:50 <Vorpal> elliott, caps are much more annoying than caps in figlet anyway
20:52:35 <elliott> JUST A FRIENDLY HEADS-UP THAT I AM TALKING TO YOU IN /MSG, THAT'S ALL
20:53:57 <Vorpal> and now I bid you good night
21:00:25 <elliott> "...the very nature of how node works. It's event-driven, which is the reason why it's so fast."
21:00:29 <elliott> Gregor: EVENT-DRIVEN = SPEED
21:00:39 <elliott> CONTINUATIONS ARE SLOWER THAN EVENT-BASED CONTINUATION-PASSING STYLE BECAUSE THE LATTER IS MORE RAAAAAW
21:00:44 <Gregor> elliott: Best logic ever, right? :P
21:00:44 <elliott> LIKE ASSEMBLY IS FASTER THAN C
21:01:00 <elliott> Gregor: Maybe Node would be bearable if someone put a CPS transformer on top of it.
21:01:43 <elliott> The last nine lines of a typical Node application:
21:02:33 <elliott> ais523: apparently Beta cards are actually the same shape and therefore more valuable
21:02:44 <ais523> elliott: Beta cards are the same shape as modern-day ones, yes
21:02:53 <ais523> although if that makes them more valuable than Alpha, that's hilarious
21:03:02 <elliott> ais523: well, no need for a holder :D
21:03:06 <ais523> (Alpha and Beta were limited-edition versions of Unlimited)
21:03:11 <olsner> elliott: that calls for lispishly putting all the end-brace-paren-semicolons on the same line
21:03:25 <ais523> olsner: I've been doing that in OCaml recently
21:03:28 <olsner> "I can code lisp in any language!"
21:03:33 <ais523> as I've been writing major chunks of parsetrees by hand
21:03:37 <elliott> }); -- totally uglier than )
21:03:38 <ais523> and any lang looks like Lisp if you do that
21:03:41 <elliott> ais523: you do that in C :D
21:03:52 <ais523> in C it would be }}}}}} in a row
21:03:54 <elliott> also, not any language where you have to initialise the fields by hand
21:03:58 <elliott> those end up looking like assembly
21:04:10 <ais523> and indeed, dekludge.c looked like that until I ported it to OIL
21:04:54 <ais523> the asm version, that is
21:04:59 <ais523> although it was comparisons not initialisations
21:05:05 <ais523> (the generated version of it still does, in fact)
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21:08:30 <elliott> "If Chaos Orb turns over completely at least once during the flip, destroy all permanents it touches."
21:08:35 <elliott> actually rip the cards apart?
21:12:14 <olsner> elliott: see http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5712
21:12:35 <elliott> olsner: so destroy actually means destroy
21:12:43 <olsner> but I suspect "destroy" means something else than physically destroying the card
21:12:51 <elliott> well, if you tear up the card...
21:12:58 <elliott> now someone has to do it with those ones worth almost a thousand dollars
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21:20:02 <fizzie> Some year in RopeCon there were folks that sold Magic: the Gathering cards for the express purpose of physically destroying them. I think they awarded points for imaginative ways (setting on fire, eating, that sort of stuff) of doing it.
21:22:59 <elliott> What about melting and inhaling?
21:23:50 <ais523> elliott: there's a story of someone who ripped up their own Chaos Orb, so that it would cover a wider area
21:23:50 <ais523> possibly apocryphal, though
21:23:50 <elliott> ais523: so destroy means physically destroy?
21:23:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: An MTG card that involves physically throwing it up in the air and destroying the cards it lands on.
21:23:51 <ais523> it's just the MTG equivalent of an OHKO
21:23:51 <elliott> ais523: Well, http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5712 involves destroying the card in that way.
21:23:51 <elliott> Probably it was based on that story given that flavour text.
21:24:32 <ais523> but it's in an Un-set, you could expect it to have silly rules
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21:34:01 <Phantom_Hoover> THINGS THAT ANNOY ME: people who are annoyed that Oscar Pistorius wasn't allowed into the Olympics.
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21:47:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I have just played a game of Minesweeper that convinced me God exists.
21:47:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I made, like, 4 1-in-2 random choices in succession, and they all worked.
21:50:40 <olsner> yes, obviously the work of God
21:52:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Capriciously helping me in Minesweeper is an infinitesimal application of his powers.
21:57:00 <elliott> mathematical puzal: how many spheres can you pack into a sphere
21:57:07 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> Is Homestuck worth watching at all.
21:57:17 <elliott> And yes, abso-fucking-lutely.
21:57:25 <elliott> Maybe it becomes shit after the most-of-it that I read.
21:57:31 <elliott> But seriously, it is hilarious.
21:59:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Oscar Pistorius should enter the Translympics
21:59:53 <elliott> which are like the Paralympics, but for transhumanists
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22:04:44 <Gregor> <elliott> The last nine lines of a typical Node application: // REMIND YOU OF ANY OTHER LANGUAGES??? <trollface/>
22:05:02 <elliott> Gregor: At least with Lisp there wouldn't be one per line :)
22:05:27 <elliott> Gregor: But yes, it was a deliberate riff on the "leaked Lisp application" joke.
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22:17:49 <elliott> "interesting - so I'd be comparing an old text file with a new one? what are the real world applications?"
22:25:34 <Sgeo_> elliott, seriously? Who asked that?
22:26:35 <Phantom_Hoover> ELLIOTT HAVEN'T YOU LEARNT ALWAYS TO KEEP TABS ON THESE PEOPLE BY NOW
22:26:39 <elliott> Also, Phantom_Hoover, HOMESTUCK
22:26:45 <Phantom_Hoover> OTHERWISE YOU'LL ACCIDENTALLY END UP TALKING TO THEM AGAIN
22:29:17 <Sgeo_> I should probably text her
22:29:32 <elliott> No you shouldn't, history suggests she's almost certainly a complete moron.
22:30:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, this may surprise you, but there are some women in the world who are not abject idiots.
22:30:50 <Phantom_Hoover> You may benefit from focusing your attentions on them.
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22:33:59 <Sgeo_> I have no idea if what she just texted me back with requires a response or not
22:34:22 <Sgeo_> It's... hard to parse
22:34:39 <elliott> Perhaps because she is stupid and therefore cannot compose English sentences.
22:34:52 <Sgeo_> "Hey u like me call u when i gt home" I have no idea if she's asking if she should call me, or telling me that she'll call
22:35:13 <elliott> You are not to converse with that female.
22:36:58 <monqy> I can't parse it either :(
22:36:59 <Phantom_Hoover> "I would have expected that after 2_ years, anyone living in an English-dominated environment to the extent of at least creating cogent and clear sentences. Whilst some leeway is to be given due to the vicissitudes of text messaging, there is no excuse for what you have done. Please cease all communications with me forthwith."
22:37:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I HAVE VERY LIMITED LOOKBACK OK SENTENCES DRIFT WHILE I COMPOSE THEM
22:37:57 <monqy> concise response: "what"
22:38:13 <elliott> better: "English, motherfucker. DO YOU SPEAK IT?"
22:38:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Spoiler: She's actually 9 years old.
22:39:27 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, yes, the immediate followup would be "In case you failed to understand the last message: English, motherfucker. DO YOU SPEAK IT?"
22:39:48 <elliott> Say what again, motherfucker, I dare youX
22:40:18 <elliott> "OK no country I ever heard of. They speak English in OK?"
22:52:55 <Gregor> CORRECT RESPONSE: Yes, they speak English in Oklahoma <trollface/>
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22:56:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, I am sorry you are not making this very fun for us.
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23:02:35 <Sgeo_> I didn't text her back
23:02:52 -!- cheater- has joined.
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23:06:07 <monqy> my response was pretty good too
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23:08:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, for it was like something very small but very good which I can't think of a simile for because I exhausted all my literary skills on that response.
23:15:38 <Ilari> Where the heck do those researcers pull those "A or B therefore A" fallacies?
23:19:42 <Ilari> Well, bad researchers all over the place.
23:20:48 <Sgeo_> A or B, not B, therefore A should work
23:21:45 <Ilari> Yes, that would work. Except that requires the "not B" bit.
23:22:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Ilari, can you actually give examples of them doing that, though?
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23:23:11 <Ilari> http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/28/38/77/XHTML/index.xhtml ... For example this.
23:24:46 <Ilari> And the obvious suggested experiment: Feed rats some salted food and see what that does to proneness to colon cancer.
23:25:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Have they actually assumed that A \/ B → A, or have you seen a second explanation B that they haven't?
23:29:37 <Ilari> Well, there is more blatant stuff like this (generally being "let's change N things. Ah, the diffrences are because of this (because we think it/other factors is/are good/bad).").
23:31:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Erm, that's kind of the principle behind a controlled study.
23:32:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Isn't the principle behind those changing _one_ thing?
23:32:58 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I was assuming Ilari took "this" to mean "N things".
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23:47:38 <Phantom_Hoover> BEST PART: all the data on your disk is effectively in a Schrodinger's cat scenario.
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23:49:29 <Sgeo_> Old iPods used magnetic media?
23:50:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, flash memory was pathetic back then, wasn't it?
23:50:26 <Phantom_Hoover> (I remember a when a 128MB flash drive had large capacity.)
23:51:47 <elliott> I think I have a magnetic iPod.
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00:06:58 <Phantom_Hoover> # In the United States, CJD deaths among persons younger than 30 years of age are extremely rare (fewer than five deaths per billion per year[citation needed]).
00:07:38 <Phantom_Hoover> It's got to be something along the lines of 3 people under 30 died of it ever.
00:08:53 <Phantom_Hoover> In 1997 a number of Kentuckians contracted the disease. It was discovered that all the victims had consumed squirrel brains.
00:10:53 -!- augur has changed nick to augur[afk].
00:12:31 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell oerjan At the first available opportunity, go to the Norwegian link in http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0140673605633338 and transfer it to my possession... somehow.
00:14:19 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Two is a number.
00:14:35 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: For that matter, so is one. And zero.
00:14:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, yes, but you don't say "a number" in that case.
00:15:18 <Gregor> A number of people in this channel fail to realize the sheer degree of pedantry that is possible online.
00:17:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, it's almost as if people don't get that the aim of language is communication within the hazy and highly contextual environment of human thought, rather than a formal system.
00:18:15 <Gregor> One might even say that a number of people don't get that.
00:19:55 * Sgeo_ forcefeeds Phantom_Hoover a squirrel brain
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00:30:56 <oklopol> '<Sgeo_> "Hey u like me call u when i gt home" I have no idea if she's asking if she should call me, or telling me that she'll call' <<< asking
00:31:18 -!- augur[afk] has changed nick to augur.
00:31:26 <elliott> Sgeo_: congratulations, you avoided being called by an absolute moron
00:31:45 <oklopol> what i can't parse is hoover's response
00:32:55 <oklopol> oh he corrects it just after
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00:38:26 <elliott> - Day gets dark enough to spawn monsters
00:38:26 <elliott> - A pig hit by lightning will turn into a zombie pigman"
00:50:40 <elliott> Trackpads now have kinetic scrolling. If you flick to perform a scroll, then press a keyboard key while kinetic scroll events are generated, unexpected application behavior may result. (728643)
00:51:16 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Yahweasel.
00:52:14 <elliott> oklopol: -minecraft dammit :|
00:52:56 <oklopol> asking makes more sense because by adding "2" makes it a perfectly valid english sentence asking if you'd like her to call, but i see no way to make it a sentence *telling* you she'll call
00:52:59 <Yahweasel> As it turns out, people are not ADEQUATELY OFFENDED by this nick.
00:53:22 <oklopol> except "Hey. You like me. Call you when i get home!"
00:53:31 <oklopol> but that would be... interesting
00:53:51 <elliott> Yahweasel: Try /nick Muyahmmed
00:54:58 <Yahweasel> elliott: ... but the "yah" isn't the offensive part :P
00:55:14 <elliott> Yahweasel: /nick Muyahmmedweasel
00:56:03 <oklopol> i have no idea what that nick refers to
00:56:10 <TeruFSX> Hey u like me call u when i gt home sounds like it's missing a few woulds and tos
00:56:34 <oklopol> TeruFSX: as i said, you need to add "2"
00:56:44 <monqy> punctuation, letters, words, sensibility
00:56:44 <oklopol> Hey u like me 2 call u when i gt home
00:56:48 <elliott> TeruFSX: where did you appear from
00:57:38 <oklopol> i can imagine omitting it would lead to a few chinese bridge builders not to get it, as demonstrated earlier by elliott and ph
00:58:13 <TeruFSX> elliot: i came here yesterday from the wiki
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00:58:48 <pikhq> oklopol: Define "Norwegian".
00:59:11 <elliott> TeruFSX: Let me guess, we can blame our new front page again? :P
00:59:13 <oklopol> pikhq: it means "use the nick TeruFSX and have lived in norway for a long time"
00:59:48 <TeruFSX> elliott: i would have come here anyway
00:59:55 <TeruFSX> though the front page helped
01:00:07 <TeruFSX> i stumbled across it once before
01:00:16 <elliott> I'll let you know when I want to cash in my debt.
01:00:54 <oklopol> did i mention i just slept for 16 hours
01:05:12 * pikhq wonders if other countries do anything similar to the whole Air Force/Marine/Executive One rigamarole...
01:06:32 <pikhq> For those unaware of what the hell I'm talking about: a plane in the US Air Force with the President aboard is Air Force One.
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01:08:08 <pikhq> Likewise for the Marines, Navy, and (hypothetically) Army, Coast Guard, Public Health Service Commissioned Corps, or National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Commissioned Corps.
01:08:24 <pikhq> Also, a commercial plane with the President aboard is Executive One.
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01:13:48 <TeruFSX> oklopol: why'd you think I was norwegian
01:15:21 <oklopol> TeruFSX: the way you smell, mostly
01:16:21 <TeruFSX> i don't know how norwegians smell
01:16:36 <oklopol> erm, how does and apple smell?
01:16:50 <oklopol> you answer that, and i'll start working on norwegians
01:18:35 <TeruFSX> I'd assume most apples and Norweigans smell about the same.
01:19:14 <oklopol> obviously i mean what apples smell like once you have squeezed the juice out of them
01:19:27 <oklopol> things tend not to smell unless you destroy them
01:19:50 <oklopol> i think i just accidentally told everyone i'm a serial killer
01:19:56 <TeruFSX> not much more than sugar, maybe a few sour notes i guess
01:20:13 <TeruFSX> well if you know norwegians smell like apples on the inside, i'd be somewhat worried
01:20:21 <TeruFSX> i'm hopefully far away though
01:21:12 <TeruFSX> always populated by protestant european stock
01:21:27 <TeruFSX> a great country, built on Christian principles and no government
01:23:00 <elliott> note to self, americans think their government is "no government"
01:23:17 <elliott> http://www.qotile.net/blog/wp/?p=600 pretttyyyyy
01:24:59 <oklopol> happy people say weird things
01:25:10 <elliott> that's truaejroaejoigoifjhggjofodgbmyi0
01:25:38 <oklopol> you can't be happy, only stupid people can be happy
01:25:47 * oklopol has been watching house for the last week
01:25:56 <Yahweasel> Conductor program is going SO FREAKING WELL 8-D
01:25:57 <elliott> oklopol just said i'm not stupid
01:26:16 <elliott> Yahweasel: So how do you actually mix two MIDI tracks together? Just use Rosegarden or something? That's so manual...
01:26:36 <Yahweasel> elliott: ./mergefiles a.mid b.mid out.mid
01:26:51 <elliott> Yahweasel: You said your music production system lacked this :P
01:27:01 <Yahweasel> elliott: No, I said that was a small clerical task.
01:27:05 <Yahweasel> It is not the important part of my suite.
01:27:18 <elliott> ./ makes baby jesus sad, you need to give them all six-letter names and make them global.
01:27:26 <elliott> OK, mergemid would also be acceptable :P
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01:28:51 <Yahweasel> Yeah, in retrospect I should have named all those "files" things as "mid", but I was in MIDI-mode at the time so I was thinking "what other kinds of files ARE there?"
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01:30:19 <elliott> Yahweasel: I thought you were the kind of pedantic asshole who always calls them smf.
01:30:45 <Yahweasel> I can't, because I'm integrating with PortMidi and PortSMF is terrible :P
01:31:11 <elliott> I thought PortMidi sucked donkey dick.
01:31:26 <elliott> "portsmf (short for Portable Standard Midi File Library), a subproject of portmedia, is a library for reading, writing, and manipulating standard midi files. One drawback of any standard midi file library is that most of the work is likely to be translating midi to whatever local data structure you are using to represent midi or general music data. portsmf provides one such data structure. Originally, this library was called Allegro, so at least
01:31:26 <elliott> for now, you'll see a lot of "allegro" and "alg" in the sources."
01:31:31 <elliott> CALLING LIBRARIES ALLEGRO: GOOD IDEA
01:32:00 <Yahweasel> elliott: Just PortSMF. PortMidi is ... bad, but sufferable :P
01:32:09 <elliott> Yahweasel: I would tell you to support MT-[thirtytwo] awesomely, but it's just a MIDI+other stuff -> analogue audio thing :(
01:32:17 <elliott> Although IIRC it has a MIDI Out that does... something...
01:32:26 <elliott> (Other stuff because you can actually reprogram the instruments totally.)
01:32:31 <elliott> (And put messages on the screen :P)
01:35:46 <Yahweasel> So the problem with the tornado alarm is that when it goes off, I have no idea whether it's its usual testing schedule, or what I'm supposed to do if it's not.
01:37:32 <Yahweasel> Oh good, wunderground says there's a tornado warning >_>
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01:38:27 <oklopol> oh you third world countries and your crazy stone agey problems
01:38:54 <Yahweasel> Ffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu, this is a legitimate tornado warning >_>
01:40:00 <elliott> Yahweasel: lol at living in us
01:40:00 <Yahweasel> Wait, I know what I'm supposed to do!
01:40:05 <oklopol> ok sorry that was insensitive of me. OH GOD TORNADO WARNING?!? THAT'S *SERIOUS* YOU MIGHT *DIE* :OO
01:40:09 <elliott> Yahweasel: GO INTO THE BASEMENT
01:40:17 <elliott> AND IT'S YOUR PARENT'S HOUSE
01:40:28 <elliott> your parents will die though
01:40:31 <elliott> can't have them in the basement
01:40:44 <Yahweasel> elliott: ... yeah, I'm a PhD student living thousands of miles away from my parents, and you?
01:40:58 <elliott> Yahweasel: You didn't count on the person you stole your identity from ...
01:41:05 <oklopol> Yahweasel: is it the first tornado warning ever?
01:41:08 <elliott> I'm a Ph.D. student named Gregor Richards living thousands of miles away from my parents.
01:41:17 <elliott> Yahweasel: You're Gregor Richards and you live in your parent's basement.
01:41:31 <elliott> This "Elliott Hird" schtick was just to CATCH YOU OFF GUARD.
01:41:37 <Yahweasel> oklopol: The first non-system-test one, yeah.
01:41:51 <elliott> also that tornado warning was me i'm just trolling you in general
01:41:55 <oklopol> Yahweasel: oh that's actually pretty cool then
01:42:44 <oklopol> Yahweasel: do they tell you any specifics?
01:43:11 <Yahweasel> oklopol: http://www.wunderground.com/US/IN/029.html#TOR
01:44:26 <pikhq> oklopol: Tornado warnings aren't really a problem because of any economic issues in the US.
01:44:46 <pikhq> oklopol: It's just that the US happens to get almost all the tornadoes.
01:45:13 <elliott> it's hogging the tornadoes
01:45:29 <pikhq> We get about 1,200 a year.
01:46:52 <oklopol> pikhq: oh it's not because you're a third world country? what about the snow, that's still about finland angering god right?
01:47:14 <elliott> DOCTOR WHO CAST DYING OFF ONE BY ONE http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-13137674
01:47:20 <oklopol> we do have a lot of that sodomy going around you know
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01:47:34 <elliott> let's see what the News Ham has to say about it
01:47:38 <news-ham> Woman dies in Oz diving accident: A woman from Donegal has died in a diving accident off the coast of Queensland in Australia. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-northern-ireland-13137774
01:47:48 <elliott> news-ham: but no what about doctor who
01:47:50 <news-ham> VIDEO: Royal wedding police helicopter tour: The Metropolitan Police are already identifying security issues along the route and key sites of the royal wedding from the skies. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-13129651
01:47:52 <pikhq> oklopol: No, God doesn't care about Finland. Be glad.
01:47:58 <elliott> it's almost as if you don't look at my messages, news-ham
01:48:00 <news-ham> VIDEO: Misrata's injured recover in Benghazi: Nato has said that there is only so much air forces can do to protect civilians in the besieged city of Misrata in Libya. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-africa-13134893
01:48:10 <elliott> oklopol: the punishment for living in finland is living in finland
01:48:19 <pikhq> oklopol: If you want to see somewhere that God is angry at, you need only look at Texas.
01:48:24 <elliott> and doesn't end until you leave finland
01:48:31 <pikhq> YOUR FLESH MELTETH
01:49:49 <pikhq> Highs of 20C in January.
01:50:25 <oklopol> we had 16.7 or something last week
01:50:37 <pikhq> 38C in July in some parts.
01:50:49 <pikhq> Those are averages, BTW.
01:51:23 <pikhq> YOUR FLESH MELTETH
01:51:50 <pikhq> *And* it's humid as fuck.
01:51:58 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, but Australia is a prison colony.
01:52:09 <pikhq> Texas was settled willingly.
01:52:16 <elliott> who would go to Texas willingly
01:52:30 <pikhq> Remember that it's a major source of derp.
01:53:08 <pikhq> They've actually got a large number of people moving in.
01:53:20 <pikhq> Adding to the derp.
01:55:31 <pikhq> Actually, Texas prefers to execute.
01:56:00 <oklopol> what kind of education do you need to be an execu...tive?
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01:59:42 <oklopol> there should totally be an executioner university
02:00:13 <oklopol> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091112123357AAjJmFN
02:04:44 <Sgeo_> Maybe I sould text her again
02:07:07 <oklopol> tell her "sry i wuntd to ansr but i forgut :>"
02:09:09 <oklopol> my mom once sent her friend the text "have 2 remember 2 take my penis with me" where 2's indicate i'm translating abbreviated text. penis was short for penicillin.
02:10:10 <Sgeo_> Wouldn't penic make more sense/
02:10:20 <elliott> Sgeo is as retarded as every girl he knows ever.
02:10:41 <oklopol> she told me this when i told her if sending text messages is so hard you have to drop the ending of every word, maybe you could call instead
02:10:42 <Sgeo_> Oh. In that case, what's so funny about what oklopol wrote?
02:10:47 <elliott> because the word for penis
02:10:52 <elliott> is short for the word for penicillin
02:11:05 <oklopol> i write it penisiliini in finnish
02:11:10 <elliott> <oklopol> she told me this when i told her if sending text messages is so hard you have to drop the ending of every word, maybe you could call instead
02:11:12 <oklopol> didn't know it had a c, maybe my mom doesn't either
02:11:34 <oklopol> elliott: well i doubt i phrased it like that
02:11:43 <elliott> are you oklopol to your parents as well
02:11:53 <elliott> like do you tell them about your dog food eating
02:11:55 <oklopol> maybe more like "it's funny how you abbreviate words more than teenagers do"
02:11:59 <HackEgo> 285) <locks> who's walter bright and why is he so bright <nddrylliog> locks: he's to D what I'm to ooc <nddrylliog> locks: guilty
02:11:59 <HackEgo> 258) <Sgeo> Is there a name for something where I'm more attracted to someone if I know they've had a rough past? <variable> Sgeo, "Little Shop of Horrors"
02:12:01 <HackEgo> 205) <oklopol> comex: what? <oklopol> *vorpal <oklopol> comex: hi, tab-complete completed c to comex instead of Vorpal, dunno why
02:12:01 <HackEgo> 359) <oklopol> i'm really sleep
02:12:02 <HackEgo> 165) <ivancastillo75> Oh I get it you guys just use this space to do nothing ?
02:12:03 <HackEgo> 335) <anekant> what does coffee do to biological neural networks <JRowe> what tiger blood does for charlie sheen
02:12:05 <HackEgo> 166) <Sgeo> Why shouldn't I just do everything in non-Microsoft-specific C#? <ais523> it's like trying to write non-IE-specific JavaScript with only Microsoft documentation and only IE to test on
02:12:05 <HackEgo> 119) <Keiya> I want a patent on common sense <Keiya> It wouldn't get me much though >_>
02:12:06 <HackEgo> 240) <pikhq> zzo38: A better definition would probably fix Avogadro's number. <Sgeo> It's broken?
02:12:07 <HackEgo> 337) <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, incidentally, I started my explorations again after getting bored of the Himalayas.
02:12:43 <elliott> our qdb is finally only mostly shitty
02:12:43 <oklopol> elliott: i'm rather open with my parents
02:12:53 <elliott> oklopol: so basically you have lots of incest?
02:12:59 <elliott> that's what that means don't you know
02:13:32 <Sgeo_> There is an attractive, and apparently smart, girl at school
02:13:34 <elliott> oklopol doesn't like facts :(
02:13:38 <elliott> Sgeo_: "apparently smart" lol
02:13:42 <elliott> "bro, I heard she's really smart"
02:13:43 <Sgeo_> I think she either likes me, is neutral towards me, or dislikes me
02:13:50 <elliott> Sgeo_: that was a joke right
02:14:01 <elliott> `addquote <Sgeo_> I think she either likes me, is neutral towards me, or dislikes me
02:14:03 <HackEgo> 371) <Sgeo_> I think she either likes me, is neutral towards me, or dislikes me
02:14:48 <Sgeo_> She did approach where I was sitting once, asked if she could sat there. I think at some point though, I said something that upset her. Not sure.
02:14:50 <oklopol> "335) <anekant> what does coffee do to biological neural networks <JRowe> what tiger blood does for charlie sheen" who the fuck is charlie sheen
02:15:15 <elliott> he's a bitchin' rockstar from mars apparently
02:15:24 <TeruFSX> a quite quotable and quite insane celebrity
02:15:43 <elliott> http://mediumlarge.wordpress.com/2011/03/01/cats-quote-charlie-sheen-the-2020-interview/
02:15:48 <elliott> http://mediumlarge.wordpress.com/2011/02/24/cats-quote-charlie-sheen/
02:15:48 <elliott> http://mediumlarge.wordpress.com/2011/03/01/cats-quote-charlie-sheen-the-2020-interview/
02:15:52 <elliott> TeruFSX: primarily quotable by cats
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02:16:37 <Yahweasel> I was hoping for Cats from Zero Wing.
02:17:09 <elliott> That would be even better.
02:21:40 <oklopol> those cats don't help me as much as i'd hoped
02:24:49 <elliott> oklopol: he's this actor on this terrible sitcom. then he spent a weekend doing insane amounts of cocaine and hookers.
02:24:57 <elliott> forcing him to go to hospital
02:25:14 <elliott> oklopol: then he turned completely manic bipolar and insane, and his show got cancelled because he's insane
02:25:17 <elliott> and he raged about it insanely
02:25:22 <elliott> and now he's doing a tour where people go to see him be insane
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02:28:52 <elliott> sgeo is ogling another tarded girl
02:28:56 <pikhq> Why must even menial employment be difficult?
02:29:44 <pikhq> I literally can't even get a job flipping burgers.
02:30:29 <pikhq> I'm afraid I desire real currency, not peanuts.
02:31:06 <elliott> pikhq: come work at the Esoteric Research Institute
02:31:09 <pikhq> Yes, but they do not make a good item for trade or barter.
02:31:25 <elliott> the idea is, we pay you to dick around and code awesome impractical shit all day
02:31:34 <elliott> don't ask what our business model is. that's not _your_ problem.
02:32:47 <pikhq> Indeed, so long as the checks cash I needn't care much about the sanity of those responsible for there being money to fund me. :P
02:33:01 <pikhq> However, I suspect that that may be an issue.
02:33:43 <elliott> pikhq: we assure you that it is _impossible_ to prove that ERI is funded by illegal activities. so you have nothing to worry about!
02:34:22 <elliott> Define "two hundred thousand dollars a year", peasant.
02:34:26 <pikhq> I, quite honestly, don't have the capacity to give a fuck about most illegal but moral activities.
02:34:46 <elliott> Hey, I never said it wasn't illegal, I just said it was impossible to prove we were funded illegally.
02:35:20 <pikhq> Though I would have preferred silver dollars. :P
02:35:21 <elliott> We could pay you in Bitcoins if you preferred. Or maple syrup.
02:38:37 <elliott> pikhq: DO YOU WANT TO BE PAID IN MAPLE SYRUP
02:38:46 <elliott> It will NEVER have inflation, depreciation, ...
02:40:40 <Yahweasel> Uhh, fairly certain maple syrup spoils :P
02:40:55 <pikhq> Yahweasel: I wouldn't be so sure.
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02:41:11 <Yahweasel> I'm not /positive/, but then, it's not honey.
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02:41:39 <pikhq> Pretty sure it has enough sugar to kill bacteria by osmosis.
02:41:59 <elliott> Yahweasel: Spoiled maple syrup: still better than any other liquid?
02:42:37 <elliott> news-ham has again survived an X restart.
02:42:39 <news-ham> Fighter O'Sullivan keen for more: Ronnie O’Sullivan says he can win more world titles after his first-round victory over Dominic Dale but will quit if he stops enjoying snooker again. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/sport1/hi/snooker/13137748.stm
02:42:40 <pikhq> Oh, there is a worry with it.
02:42:45 <pikhq> Maple syrup can ferment.
02:43:10 <pikhq> I APPROVE OF MAPLE LIQUOR
02:44:56 <elliott> Yahweasel: You have to ferment maple syrup now.
02:46:17 <pikhq> It apparently can be made into a maple mead.
02:46:59 <elliott> http://davespicks.com/writing/mme/recipes/honeymaple.html With honey :P
02:47:24 <elliott> pikhq: I wonder if fermented maple syrup itself would taste nice...
02:47:48 <pikhq> Worth experimenting.
02:48:20 <Yahweasel> It would taste very much like rum I assume.
02:48:26 <pikhq> Yahweasel: Not really.
02:48:43 <pikhq> Yahweasel: First, rum is made from molasses or sugar cane juice.
02:48:58 <pikhq> Yahweasel: Second, it's distilled. Distillation produces rather different flavors.
02:49:28 <pikhq> This hypothetical maple drink would be a straight fermented beverage.
02:49:56 <elliott> Maple syrup is pretty damn thick, you know :P
02:49:59 <Yahweasel> The former point is irrelevant though.
02:50:08 <elliott> You might have to mix it into something at the end to get it drinkable.
02:50:18 <pikhq> elliott: So's honey.
02:50:35 <elliott> Honey's thicker, obviously :P
02:50:51 <pikhq> You'd probably do what you usually do with mead: water the honey down before fermenting.
02:51:02 <elliott> You ferment pure maple syrup.
02:51:16 <pikhq> Yahweasel: Different flavors in the unfermented product will produce different flavors in the fermented product.
02:51:33 <pikhq> Yahweasel: In case you didn't notice, molasses and maple syrup have very distinct flavors.
02:52:06 <elliott> Yahweasel: You must do it X_X
02:52:57 <elliott> Yahweasel: Dude, EVERYONE drinks for Fermented Maple Syrup.
02:52:57 <pikhq> If I had sufficient space and some spare cash, I'd try.
02:53:07 <elliott> And you're the resident Beverage Maker.
02:53:09 <pikhq> Though, it would be the first thing brewed by me.
02:53:10 <elliott> Yahweasel: BUT NOW THE RESIDENT BEVERAGE MAKER
02:53:10 <pikhq> Yahweasel: Why, may I ask, do you not drink?
02:53:10 <Yahweasel> I don't even like most beverages that other people like :P
02:53:13 <elliott> pikhq: I am going to give you money and you are going to use that money to make fermented maple syrup.
02:53:24 <elliott> How much cash do you require to make this possible. You must use high-quality Canadian maple syrup.
02:53:28 <Yahweasel> pikhq: I don't like it. <pikhq> Oh you just haven't {had GOOD X,developed a taste for X,blah blah blah some other bullshit X}.
02:53:51 <elliott> Yahweasel: omg we agree :D
02:53:59 <elliott> Alcoholic drinks don't taste good :P
02:54:03 <elliott> APART FROM FERMENTED MAPLE SYRUP
02:54:06 <elliott> WHICH CANNOT POSSIBLY TASTE BAD
02:54:16 <pikhq> Yahweasel: I shan't say "you haven't developed a taste for X", as I liked it right away...
02:54:32 <pikhq> Yahweasel: But I must say, there's a decent chance you've had shit.
02:54:48 <pikhq> Yahweasel: There's also a decent chance that anosmia sucks.
02:54:59 <pikhq> elliott: I KNOW NOT
02:55:08 <elliott> pikhq: Find out how much you'd need to make it happen.
02:55:27 <Yahweasel> pikhq: There's also a decent chance that I've had expensive dinners in Genoa, Prague and London :P
02:55:37 <pikhq> Yahweasel: Ah, right.
02:55:42 <pikhq> Yahweasel: So, anosmia sucks.
02:55:47 <Yahweasel> And expensive dinners in the former two include expensive wine (whether you want them to or not)
02:55:53 <Yahweasel> ANd wine tastes EXACTLY like chilled coffee.
02:56:03 <oklopol> chilled coffee tastes awesome
02:56:07 <pikhq> ... Not even vaguely close to me.
02:56:24 <pikhq> Though iced coffee is pretty awesome with some cream & sugar.
02:56:34 <pikhq> elliott: Point is, his nose spites good taste.
02:56:36 <elliott> I'm pretty sure wine, sans the aroma, is similar to coffee.
02:56:39 <Yahweasel> Chilled, "sweetened" coffee, although as far as I can tell sweetening coffee just makes it sour (so more like wine)
02:57:00 <elliott> Yahweasel: What does coke taste like to you, acid water? :P
02:57:08 <pikhq> Hmm. Actually, sans aroma, the major taste in both would be "bitter"...
02:57:28 <Yahweasel> elliott: I can actually taste the sweetness in coke :P
02:57:33 <Yahweasel> elliott: And juice, for that matter.
02:57:47 <elliott> Yahweasel: What does Dr Pepper taste like?
02:57:59 <oklopol> i'm never hungry because i love eating too much to want to wait
02:58:15 <pikhq> ... Dr Pepper, fruity?
02:58:17 <Yahweasel> What is it supposed to taste like? :P
02:58:20 <elliott> I'm trying to get INTERESTING RESULTS.
02:58:24 <elliott> Dr Pepper ... IS fruity :P
02:58:28 <elliott> Fruity with... you know, other shit.
02:58:35 <elliott> Yahweasel: Vanilla essence?
02:58:40 <pikhq> elliott: Doesn't really taste "fruity" to me.
02:58:41 <Yahweasel> pikhq: Not like berry-y, but like some of the warmer fruits.
02:58:49 <pikhq> I'm not sure how to describe it, really.
02:59:04 <Yahweasel> elliott: ... is "vanilla essence" something one drinks? :P
02:59:11 <elliott> pikhq: Dr Pepper tastes like Dr Pepper, but it is unquestionably something _like_ Cherry Coke.
02:59:17 <elliott> FAR superior, but it _does_ have a shitload of fruits.
02:59:25 <Yahweasel> OK Tia, it's time to stop taking up of the bed >_<
02:59:25 <pikhq> elliott: Except with less cherry.
02:59:27 <elliott> Yahweasel: Do you... not know what "vanilla essence" is?
02:59:28 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, fair enough.
02:59:32 <elliott> <Yahweasel> OK Tia, it's time to stop taking up ¾ of the bed >_<
02:59:40 <elliott> "Why did I ever marry you."
02:59:50 <elliott> "Why did I ever marry a cat."
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03:00:06 <pikhq> elliott: And yet, adding cherry to it makes it amazing.
03:00:27 <Yahweasel> elliott: Are you referring to vanilla extract or something?
03:00:42 <elliott> Yahweasel: It's really strong vanilla in alcohol in really tiny bottles.
03:00:53 <elliott> Yahweasel: I am _not_ referring to the shit that you get in huge bottles that's diluted to hell.
03:00:58 <pikhq> Yeah, that's vanilla extract.
03:01:18 <elliott> Yahweasel: http://www.spicesofindia.co.uk/acatalog/Pride-Vanilla-Essence-Big.gif
03:01:23 <pikhq> You can actually get vanilla extract in huge bottles. I know not the cost.
03:01:41 <oklopol> Yahweasel: i'm sure fat cats are used to getting as great a percentage of a bed as they like
03:01:46 <elliott> pikhq: Fermented (maple syrup + bit of vanilla extract): oh god so fuckinszg deliciosudfghjk
03:02:11 <Yahweasel> Right, so vanilla extract, got it :P
03:02:18 <pikhq> "Imitation vanilla extract is usually made by soaking alcohol into wood, which contains vanillin."
03:02:21 <pikhq> This makes me sad.
03:03:08 <elliott> Yahweasel lives in a world of richness :P
03:03:42 <elliott> Yahweasel: (I am trolling you)
03:03:43 <Yahweasel> Imitation vanilla extract really isn't that bad, depending on the usage.
03:04:23 <elliott> Even the alcohol base of vanilla essence is unacceptable.
03:04:26 <elliott> It must be PURE LIQUID VANILLA
03:04:43 <pikhq> It's insufficiently vanilla-y.
03:04:43 <elliott> oklopol: stop having so much sex
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03:05:20 <pikhq> ... Vanilla extract could be considered an alcoholic beverage.
03:05:30 <pikhq> And yet, it's purchasable by those under 21 in the US.
03:05:35 <oklopol> i should really start taking 5 minute walking breaks between 8 hour sleep segments after having spent the last night doing a jigsaw puzzle on the floor
03:06:27 <pikhq> Yup, minimum 70 proof...
03:07:04 <elliott> pikhq: omg let's get shitfaced on vanilla extract
03:07:15 <elliott> oklopol: dude, i wanna do jigsaws
03:07:31 <pikhq> Wouldn't even take *that* much. A few shots, I suppose?
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03:08:00 <elliott> most delicious way to get drunk ever
03:08:10 <pikhq> Anyways, if I *really* wanted to get shitfaced, I'd just get a bottle of vodka...
03:08:18 <elliott> pikhq: can you find out how much it would cost you to ferment maple syrup, thanks
03:08:47 <oklopol> elliott: i will do a jigsaw puzzle with you if you like, sure
03:08:47 <pikhq> I think I'm going to charge $40,000.
03:09:00 <elliott> pikhq: stop joking the fuck around, i want to make this happen
03:09:03 <elliott> pikhq: SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY
03:10:04 <pikhq> elliott: No, but seriously, what I need is an indeterminate amount of money to get practice at homebrewing.
03:10:11 <pikhq> In addition to equipment and *space*.
03:10:26 <elliott> pikhq: Basically, what you need is a job :P
03:10:43 <elliott> pikhq: And surely you can just BREW IN A CORNER
03:10:50 <pikhq> Though, given a decent income, I'd be liable to try my hand at homebrewing *anyways*...
03:11:06 <elliott> I need to get around to making Swig Ingest Drink.
03:11:44 <elliott> Then whoever makes fermented maple syrup and vanilla gets to create Swig Ingest Drunk: Just Like the Real Thing, Only More Alcoholic.
03:13:24 <pikhq> Certainly, homebrewed beverages can be positively delicious.
03:13:40 * pikhq <3's his uncle's wine
03:13:53 <elliott> pikhq also less-than-threes his uncle.
03:13:58 <elliott> ALL I AM ASKING HERE IS: THE QUESTIONS
03:14:10 <elliott> a desperate attempt for recovery from loss of smell"
03:14:22 <pikhq> elliott: I'm pretty sure you can't imply that which you explicitly state. :)
03:14:30 <elliott> pikhq: O RLY? Glenn Beck does it all the time.
03:14:55 <elliott> So cheese is milk that's off...
03:15:01 <elliott> Let's say maple syrup spoils.
03:15:05 <elliott> Let it spoil, then ferment it.
03:15:12 <elliott> THIS IS JUST A SOURCE OF AMAZINGNESS
03:15:17 <elliott> Yahweasel: Lemme guess, milk tastes like piss to you? :P
03:15:33 <Yahweasel> It's actually mostly a texture thing with milk.
03:15:53 <elliott> Bro, we have both been drinking milk, but the milk I have been drinking is not the milk that you have been drinking.
03:15:59 <Yahweasel> It leaves that sticky feeling in the roof of your mouth.
03:16:00 <pikhq> Yahweasel: I'm frightened of your milk.
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03:16:07 <elliott> My milk is smooth and silky and cold.
03:16:23 <pikhq> elliott: I can confirm that this isn't pan-American.
03:16:26 <Yahweasel> Milk is anything but smooth and silky.
03:16:34 <elliott> Yahweasel: s/Milk/The milk I've drunk/
03:16:45 <elliott> Yahweasel: Was it skimmed in any way?
03:16:55 <elliott> If it wasn't, semi-skimmed might be more to your liking /shrug
03:16:56 <Yahweasel> I've had 2%, 1%, skim, soy, whole ...
03:17:11 <Yahweasel> Milk is just godawfully bad. Not as bad as cheese, but horrible.
03:17:13 <elliott> "Two samples of human breast milk" -- first picture on [[Milk]]
03:17:22 <pikhq> ... "Not as bad as cheese" WUT?
03:17:26 <elliott> Yahweasel: I swear to god, milk is smooth and silky over here :P
03:17:35 <pikhq> Oh, wait, American. Most American cheese is godawful.
03:17:38 <elliott> I wouldn't drink it if it did shit to the roof of my mouth.
03:18:00 <elliott> It has pretty much the same texture as nice smooth orange juice for me /shrug
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03:19:15 <Yahweasel> pikhq: Been to Genoa. Been to Prague. Will soon be to Paris. I promise you, I hate cheese.
03:20:04 <elliott> Doods. Milk is NOT STICKY it is the BEST believe me
03:20:05 <Yahweasel> Same texture as ORANGE JUICE (minus acidity)???
03:20:26 <elliott> Yahweasel: You hate orange juice?
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03:20:30 <elliott> I was just trying to make an example.
03:20:35 <Yahweasel> It is as bad as a beverage can be.
03:20:36 <elliott> It literally just has the texture of... liquid.
03:20:51 <elliott> SRSLY come to Britain we have nice milk from nice cows.
03:20:54 <elliott> IT ISN'T STICKY I PROMISE YOU
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03:21:04 <elliott> Have you been having milk that didn't just come straight out of a good fridge?
03:21:25 <Yahweasel> Why is it that every time I describe a food/drink I don't like, people assume my sample size is one :P
03:21:42 <elliott> It's just that milk is _really insanely hard_ to get right :P
03:21:50 <elliott> I /hate/ 90 percent of milk because 90 percent of milk is terrible.
03:21:57 <pikhq> Yahweasel: Because you're describing things that are the very incarnation of deliciousness as "bad". :P
03:22:25 <elliott> Yahweasel: It has to be the right brand, the right skimmedness (depends on brand, etc.), and it has to have either been in a good fridge for ages or, preferably, in the freezer for the last ten minutes, and it then has to be served and drunk immediately.
03:23:10 <Yahweasel> And you have to do this while standing on your head, while Jupiter is at its zenith and Orion's Belt is visible in the western sky.
03:23:28 <elliott> I don't drink milk that often because it is such a coordinated practice to drink it :P
03:23:55 <pikhq> The hell foods *do* you like, Yahweasel?
03:23:56 <elliott> In 2010 a college professor named Mark Haub went on a "convenience store" diet consisting mainly of Twinkies, Oreos, and Doritos in an attempt to demonstrate to his students "that in weight loss, pure calorie counting is what matters most—not the nutritional value of the food". He lost 27 pounds over a 2 month period, returning his BMI to within normal range.[11]
03:24:08 <elliott> pikhq: Yahweasel survives on a diet composed entirely of Moxie.
03:24:46 <elliott> Two-thirds of his total intake came from junk food. He also took a multivitamin pill and drank a protein shake daily. And he ate vegetables, typically a can of green beans or three to four celery stalks.
03:25:09 <Yahweasel> pikhq: Everything substantial I don't like is: Dairy, fish, various beverages.
03:25:20 <Yahweasel> Other than that, I like most everything.
03:25:28 <pikhq> Yahweasel: Fish? The fuck?
03:25:34 <pikhq> Yahweasel: What about fish do you not like?
03:25:55 <elliott> Fish has a horrible texture and a horrible flavour.
03:25:59 <elliott> Everything about it is bad.
03:26:13 <pikhq> elliott: LIES AND DECEIT
03:26:18 <elliott> Yahweasel: Do you like pizza.
03:26:21 <elliott> (I am testing Yahweasel's humanity.)
03:26:25 <pikhq> Though it's better uncooked. :P
03:26:35 <elliott> Yahweasel: You can have pizza without cheese.
03:26:49 <Yahweasel> elliott: You CAN, but people look at you funny and you get disowned.
03:26:51 <elliott> (But... how does the utterly mild cheese cause distaste to you in pizza?)
03:26:59 <pikhq> Yeah, "cheese on all pizza" is an Americanism.
03:27:02 <elliott> It doesn't even have the texture.
03:27:11 <elliott> Yahweasel: OK, I've figured out the problem.
03:27:26 <elliott> Yahweasel: Your definition of "taste" is one that involves not having a nose.
03:27:32 <elliott> Therefore it is utterly unrelated to the sense known as "taste".
03:27:37 <elliott> I propose you use the word "fnarf" instead.
03:28:00 <Yahweasel> The fnarf of liver paste is quite good, but the fnarf of cheese is abysmally bad.
03:28:01 <elliott> Mozzarella on pizza /fnarfs/ like dying and hell.
03:28:35 <elliott> Yahweasel: But yah, you can easily have pizza without cheese, it's a diverse field :P
03:28:44 <elliott> I keep meaning to make some pizza.
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03:28:56 <Yahweasel> elliott: I like no-cheese pizza, you just can't buy that here :P
03:29:15 <pikhq> Yahweasel: And if anyone accuses you of being inauthentic, disown them.
03:29:16 <Yahweasel> Why bother? I can make better things.
03:29:45 <elliott> http://www.textism.com/2008/06/10/on.pie ;; This will make everyone instantly hungry and want to make home-made pizza.
03:29:53 <elliott> pikhq: Please confirm the above.
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03:32:23 <pikhq> elliott: I confirm that I want home-made pizza to satiate my hunger.
03:32:37 <elliott> oerjan: hi, we're causing ourselves debilitating stress by reading an article that instantly causes anyone, anywhere to rabidly desire home-made pizza
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03:33:30 <pikhq> ... Unstoned olives? WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT
03:33:45 <elliott> Olives? WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT
03:33:52 <elliott> Olives are designed for: making olive oil.
03:33:59 <elliott> After that, they should be destroyed.
03:34:00 <oerjan> no. i have (almost) home-made smoked salmon.
03:34:00 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:34:12 <elliott> oerjan: ooh do it in channel
03:34:33 <oerjan> elliott: you were two seconds too late
03:34:52 <lambdabot> tell provides: tell ask messages messages? clear-messages
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03:35:13 <oerjan> lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover said 3h 21m 44s ago: At the first available opportunity, go to the Norwegian link in http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0140673605633338 and transfer it to my possession...
03:35:13 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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03:35:17 <oerjan> 05:33 =lambdabot> somehow.
03:35:23 <lambdabot> elliott said 25s ago: I have erased all the evidence. The mugging is at dawn.
03:35:23 <elliott> oerjan: OMG DO IT IN PUBLIC
03:35:32 <elliott> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
03:35:48 <oerjan> elliott: yes, i checked the logs before pasting
03:36:00 <lambdabot> tell provides: tell ask messages messages? clear-messages
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03:36:18 <lambdabot> messages?. Tells you whether you have any messages
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03:37:02 <oerjan> sadly there seems to be no way to get lambdabot to repeat it in channel afterwards
03:37:02 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:37:08 <lambdabot> AnMaster said 23s ago: I am ready for the sexy times... name a date and I'll be there ;)
03:37:24 * pikhq is sad that lambdabot can't tell messages for yourself
03:37:32 <elliott> pikhq: EXCUSE ME, THIS IS A SCANDAL
03:37:34 <oerjan> 05:36 AnMaster [~elliott@91.104.230.10]
03:37:34 <oerjan> 05:36 was : Elliott Hird
03:37:34 <oerjan> 05:36 server : zelazny.freenode.net [Wed Apr 20 03:36:23 2011]
03:37:51 <oerjan> also, i already knew that was possible :D
03:38:05 <elliott> well Vorpal is still ready for the sexy times, he just wanted me to relay the message.
03:38:05 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:38:12 <lambdabot> pikhq said 20s ago: What do you mean, *this* is a scandal? What about our little scandal?
03:38:21 <elliott> @tell pikhq DON'T TELL THEM ABOUT THE SCANDAL
03:38:26 <oerjan> (i checked it after that first message which i annoyed you by doing in public, because it _looked_ like it could be a fake)
03:38:28 <lambdabot> pikhq: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:38:32 <lambdabot> elliott said 11s ago: DON'T TELL THEM ABOUT THE SCANDAL
03:38:44 <elliott> @tell pikhq YOU'RE MAKING IT WORSE, STOP READING MESSAGES IN PUBLIC
03:38:54 <pikhq> @tell elliott FAIL
03:38:55 <lambdabot> elliott said 11s ago: YOU'RE MAKING IT WORSE, STOP READING MESSAGES IN PUBLIC
03:39:06 <elliott> @tell pikhq THIS IS RIDICULOUS
03:39:10 <lambdabot> elliott said 3s ago: THIS IS RIDICULOUS
03:39:15 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:39:42 <elliott> I wonder if /nick lilo works
03:40:05 <oerjan> @tell phantom_hoover you appear to have this delusion that i have journal accesses...
03:40:11 <pikhq> I wouldn't be surprised if there's a K-line attached.
03:40:14 <elliott> oerjan: erm it's _free_ in norway
03:40:38 <elliott> * lilo :Erroneous Nickname
03:40:41 <elliott> maybe they got a log though
03:40:42 <pikhq> Fuck you; I liked lilo.
03:41:03 <elliott> pikhq: Who says we can't imitate those we liked?
03:41:25 <elliott> http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/Rob_Levin
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03:42:19 <elliott> The good folks at Archive Team have a bounty for the whole thing.
03:42:25 <elliott> Only 90 bucks, but that's a lot for basement-dwellers :)
03:42:54 * pikhq salutes Archive Team
03:44:37 <pikhq> Yahweasel: They archive websites that are shutting down.
03:44:46 <pikhq> Currently, they're archiving Google Video.
03:44:49 <pikhq> Yes, the whole thing.
03:45:05 <elliott> Yahweasel: http://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=Main_Page
03:45:15 <elliott> Yahweasel: Lead by Jason Scott, author of a buncha documentaries and a blog. You've heard of him.
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03:45:23 <elliott> Yahweasel: They archived shitloads of Geocities. And others.
03:45:41 <elliott> "Congratulations, Google Video! With your announcement today you're removing access to all user uploaded video in 15 days, you outsmarted us!" --their Twitter
03:46:13 <pikhq> Damned shame that Google didn't just chuck some hard drives at archive.org and write it off.
03:46:48 <elliott> When you're as big as Google, such loss of data happens by only one means: a complete failure to give a shit.
03:47:06 <elliott> Still, the shutdown of Geocities was far worse.
03:47:21 <oerjan> elliott: what, ED has disappeared? of course i _did_ avoid visiting it...
03:47:29 <pikhq> Yes, it still doesn't change that it's a dick move by Google.
03:47:39 <elliott> oerjan: Yes. It now redirects to "Oh Internet", the most SFW, irritating piece of shit website ever.
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03:47:46 <elliott> Because its owner decided it wasn't profitable enough.
03:48:03 <elliott> pikhq: Big red button to erase half of the internets + Yahoo executives = Oooh shiny. I think I'll press it.
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03:48:39 <elliott> <elliott> pikhq: Big red button to erase half of the internets + Yahoo executives = Oooh shiny. I think I'll press it.
03:48:42 <oerjan> you mean ads that repel the majority of your potential readership isn't profitable? how weird.
03:49:06 <pikhq_> Yeah, Yahoo!'s handling of it was *really* shitty.
03:49:22 <elliott> oerjan: The /ads/ repelled you?
03:49:24 <pikhq_> Especially given how freaking small Geocities was by modern standards.
03:49:28 <elliott> They were hardly more NSFW than the rest of the images.
03:49:36 <pikhq_> They could've stuck the whole thing on a couple of drives.
03:49:41 <elliott> And you're hardly "the majority of your potential readership" :P
03:49:50 <pikhq_> Remember, kids, a terabyte is not much!
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03:50:13 <oerjan> elliott: well i understood ED also had some interesting information.
03:50:24 <elliott> oerjan: that doesn't mean it was SFW
03:50:34 <elliott> the useful information was to the left of the cocks.
03:51:24 <oerjan> <pikhq> I wouldn't be surprised if there's a K-line attached. <-- that _would_ be a bit harsh, someone might not know about the older nick and it has at least two well-known meanings so people might easily choose it
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03:57:04 <elliott> oerjan: read that article it is so :pizza:
03:58:50 <pikhq_> Jason Scott is now Archivist for the Internet Archive.
03:58:56 <oerjan> elliott: i'm currently busy with phantom_hoover's quest
04:00:04 <elliott> 10apr2011 sabotage, a new distribution based on musl and busybox. Yes, I bootstrapped a new Linux distribution.
04:01:35 <oerjan> sadly phantom_hoover's article is just a rather boring half-page summary
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04:10:35 <oerjan> <pikhq> Likewise for the Marines, Navy, and (hypothetically) Army, Coast Guard, Public Health Service Commissioned Corps, or National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Commissioned Corps.
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04:10:53 <oerjan> "National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Commissioned Corps 1 incoming!"
04:11:30 <oerjan> <TeruFSX> i don't know how norwegians smell
04:11:37 <oerjan> delicious. also soap and milk.
04:11:49 <pikhq_> oerjan: Yes, this could hypothetically happen.
04:11:58 <pikhq_> But, the NOAA has no planes.
04:13:13 <pikhq_> Borrowed from the Navy as needed.
04:15:12 <oerjan> i mean do they also get a One designation? this could be hilarious if the president somehow ended up on QE2 or the like...
04:16:21 <pikhq_> If the President is on it, it's fucking getting a One designation.
04:16:29 <pikhq_> Two is reserved for the Vice President.
04:16:34 * oerjan suddenly wonders if abbreviating Queen Elizabeth Two is appropriate
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04:32:19 * pikhq_ wonders at music videos that make no sense
04:33:44 <pikhq_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqrwN-HhnC8&NR=1&feature=fvwp No, this does *not* make any more sense if you understand the lyrics.
04:38:46 <pikhq_> "1) If God exists, then all morals and values are subject to God's will.
04:38:46 <pikhq_> 2) If all morals and values are subject to God's will, then morality is subjective.
04:38:49 <pikhq_> 3) If morality is subjective, then objective morals and values do not exist.
04:38:51 <pikhq_> 4) Therefore, if God exists, then objective morals and values do not exist."
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04:40:42 <pikhq> (source: http://www.unifreethought.com/2011/04/refutation-of-moral-argument-or.html "A Refutation of The Moral Argument, or The Argument From Trollface")
04:44:53 <pikhq> If morality were objective, then it could not possibly be defined by the perception of a single entity.
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04:45:15 <pikhq> And if morality is subjective, then it could not possibly be the exact opposite of subjective.
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05:00:43 <pikhq> As soon as I get my computer working again, my minecart station is going to get uberawesome.
05:00:54 <pikhq> 3 high. Fuck yeah.
05:02:36 <oerjan> i believe the customary notation for that is [3]
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05:04:40 * pikhq sentences oerjan to a 50x50 row reduction
05:08:06 <pikhq> I'll pet this kitty while you do that.
05:14:00 <oerjan> *Determinant> det [[i^2 + j^2 | i <- [1..50]] | j <- [1..50]]
05:14:50 <Sgeo_> oerjan, I'd almost certainly mess it up
05:15:08 <oerjan> i wrote that Determinant module years ago
05:16:32 <pikhq> oerjan: I take it that that does determinant via row reduction.
05:16:45 <oerjan> well something essentially row reduction, anyway
05:17:42 * pikhq was so very annoyed when expansion by cofactors was first taught.
05:18:02 <pikhq> I am *pained* by O(n!) algorithms.
05:18:28 <oerjan> yeah that's presumably useful for proving properties, though
05:18:50 <pikhq> Yes, but jeeeze O(n!) is just cruel.
05:19:37 <oerjan> for the permanent iiuc the best algorithm is _still_ something not much better than that
05:19:49 <pikhq> Row reduction is O(n^3)...
05:20:33 <pikhq> P is significantly better than NP. :)
05:20:57 <oerjan> i'm not sure computing the permanent is even in NP
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05:21:13 <oerjan> it's #P-complete, it was called
05:21:16 * pikhq realises he should look up "permanent"
05:21:31 <oerjan> (there was a recent Godel's Letter post about this)
05:22:02 <oerjan> it's like the cofactor expansion except the sign is always positive
05:22:45 <pikhq> Yeah, the nice algorithm doesn't apply.
05:23:59 <oerjan> iirc the blog post or possibly a comment mentioned that using other group characters instead for the sign, you have a dichotomy where the calculation problem is _either_ in P or #P-complete. or maybe i'm misremembering.
05:25:13 <pikhq> Indeed, the permanent is not in NP.
05:25:23 <pikhq> Even proving #P=NP would be somewhat interesting.
05:25:51 <oerjan> yeah (well technically one is a function problem class and the other is a decision problem class)
05:27:39 <oerjan> probably was this one http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2011/03/22/valiants-permanent-contributions/
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05:29:20 <oerjan> s/probably/most definitely/
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05:30:24 * pikhq wonders if there is, indeed, an elegant proof of Fermat's Last Theorem that the margin is too small to contain
05:32:16 <oerjan> ah yes David Bacon's comment about the imman[ae]nt is what i was thinking of
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05:34:46 <oerjan> i may have been confused about the dichotomy thing, and possibly kwregan's following comment
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10:53:35 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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13:53:46 <oerjan> ais523: nice timing, i just saw [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA
13:53:55 <oerjan> ]] and wondered if it needs deletion
13:54:23 <oerjan> it seems to have nothing to do with esolangs
13:55:28 <oerjan> it doesn't seem to be spam
13:56:43 <ais523> oerjan: it may be a reference to a famous page on Uncyclopedia
13:57:02 <oerjan> maybe. we also have a similarly named esolang.
13:57:09 <ais523> the actual esolang is, I think
13:57:12 <ais523> but that page is just meaningless
13:57:35 <ais523> I've deleted it as offtopic
13:57:53 <ais523> the bar for topicality isn't all that high on Esolang, but that somehow managed to dive well below it anyway
13:58:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, I've always wanted to draw up some Feynmanoid diagrams in Life, and present them as part of a physics paper showing the latest results from the LGC.
13:59:17 <oerjan> large glider collider?
14:01:11 <oerjan> which doesn't actually makes sense, since glider means only the smallest spaceship
14:03:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Same as the LHC doesn't collide large hadrons; it actually collides the smallest ones.
14:03:16 * oerjan swats his brain -----###
14:03:37 <oerjan> hadron = baryon or meson
14:03:54 <oerjan> (barring some theoretical > 3 quark combinations)
14:04:39 <oerjan> well protons are the only stable ones
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14:47:22 <cheater-> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=647959
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15:26:43 <Gregor> Maaaaaaaaan, when I actually have a QUESTION for ##javascript , it's all *chirp chirp* :P
15:28:51 <elliott> - Ask a question like a human would -> YOU WERE IMPRECISE. YOU WILL NOW RECEIVE THE PAIN.
15:29:05 <Gregor> elliott: https://github.com/mozilla/narcissus/pull/31 <-- observe the greatest code I have ever written
15:29:09 <elliott> - Ask a question with ridiculous precision, going so far as to cite the exact ISO standard identifier that defines C90 -> chirp chirp
15:29:24 <ais523> elliott: I like comp.lang.c, because at least the second sort of question does normally get an answer
15:29:30 <ais523> (and the first gets flamed into oblivion)
15:29:39 <elliott> ais523: Hey, comp.lang.c probably doesn't have PoppaVic too.
15:30:03 <elliott> Gregor: Wow at isValidIdentifierChar :P
15:30:10 <fizzie> The first one gets replies from them trolls about how "c.l.c fascists" are soon going to flame the question into oblivion.
15:30:10 <elliott> Gregor: That's so metacircular it's cheating :P
15:30:17 <elliott> Like function narcissusEval(x) { return eval(x); }
15:30:26 <elliott> ais523: https://github.com/mozilla/narcissus/pull/31
15:30:34 <elliott> If you refuse to /click links/ to GitHub, I don't care.
15:30:56 <ais523> that's just a pull request
15:30:56 <elliott> Gregor: "Note that I did it this way after spending ten minutes compiling a database of all the relevant Unicode codepoints. I vote we don't do that :P" ;; Isn't there a file with all that shit?
15:31:03 <elliott> ais523: With the function I referenced.
15:31:03 <ais523> I did click the link, the information I wanted wasn't on the other end of it
15:31:08 <elliott> Yes it was. You are blind.
15:31:12 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, but that would involve adding megs of bullshit to Narcissus :P
15:31:15 <ais523> well none of the buttons on the page do anything
15:31:22 <ais523> does it require JavaScript or something?
15:31:31 <Gregor> elliott: Also ITYM that's so AWESOME it's almost cheatin g:P
15:31:51 <elliott> Gregor: It already has kilos of bullshit, constituting a JavaScript program (one half bullshit), and a JavaScript interpreter (one half bullshit), making one whole bullshit :P
15:32:01 <fizzie> It seems to require JavaScript and not from just github.com (which I did have whitelisted) but also from "cloudfront.net".
15:32:06 <Ilari> APNIC (3x/32+/48 IPv6): 2x1k to Australia, 2x1k to Hong Kong, /32 to Indonesia, 1k+/32 to India, 25x1k to Japan, 2x1k to South Korea, 1k to Lao People's Democratic Republic, /32 to New Zealand, /48 to Philipphines, 1k to Solomon Islands, 1k to Singapore, 1k to Vietnam.
15:32:28 * oerjan vaguely thought unicode implementations had character classification functions... at least i thought that was how ghc did it...
15:32:51 <elliott> Gregor: I should fork Narcissus and add e.g. block scoping, s-expression syntax, and make a pull request :trollface:
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15:33:28 <elliott> Gregor: BTW, re: megs of bullshit, I bet it could be expressed in a few k with a list of (start,end) ranges, plus maybe a list of specific codepoints to not include.
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15:34:20 <elliott> "Peculiar nouns: MIT AI hackers love to take various words and add the wrong endings to them to make nouns and verbs, often by extending a standard rule to nonuniform cases. Examples: porous => porosity. generous => generosity. Ergo:mysterious => mysteriosity. ferrous => ferocity. Other examples: winnitude, disgustitude, hackification."
15:34:33 <elliott> Ferocity: THIS WORD IS A WORD THAT IS HACKER SLANG TOTES
15:34:34 <Gregor> elliott: You'd have to sign a Mozilla committer agreement to do the pull request lololol <trollface/>
15:34:45 <elliott> Gregor: I can't, I'm a minor.
15:34:48 <elliott> I cannot agree to contracts.
15:35:00 <elliott> BUT I CAN PRESS BUTTONS THAT CREATE PULL REQUESTS :D
15:35:03 <Gregor> elliott: Then you can't commit to Narcissus!
15:35:16 <elliott> Gregor: No, but I can annoy those who doX
15:35:30 * elliott reads the Ammitter's Cogreement
15:35:44 <oerjan> he can commit to narcissism though
15:36:03 <elliott> Gregor: That is the stupidest agreement ever, it's "don't commit things that violate the license" + bullshit :P
15:36:40 <Gregor> elliott: It's NOT "you give us all your rights, so lol screw you"
15:36:50 <elliott> Gregor: ANYWAY, I totes saw a news article about this smarmy twelve-year-old shit who fixed a buffer overflow or something in Firefox.
15:37:19 <Gregor> Get somebody else to commit the code :P
15:37:40 <elliott> Gregor: Hey Gregor, wanna troll Narcissus committers ;D
15:38:44 <Gregor> There's only one direct committer, and no, I don't want to troll him :P
15:40:19 <elliott> EL CAMINO BIGNUM: El Camino Real, a street through the San Francisco peninsula that originally extended (and still appears in places) all the way to Mexico City. It was termed "El Camino Double Precision" when someone noted it was a very long street, and then "El Camino Bignum" when it was pointed out that it was hundreds of miles long.
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15:52:40 <elliott> How did ~/Code get this big.
16:07:08 <elliott> "GNOME3 will replace GNOME2 once it gets moved to [extra]." --Arch
16:17:37 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lists_of_lists
16:21:19 <elliott> olsner: I'm going to work on that Forth again :)
16:32:22 <Vorpal> <elliott> "GNOME3 will replace GNOME2 once it gets moved to [extra]." --Arch
16:32:27 <Vorpal> time to switch to xfce
16:32:42 <elliott> Vorpal: well, it'll still have gnome-panel and stuff as "fallback"
16:32:51 <elliott> but i don't think that will be maintained
16:33:07 <Vorpal> elliott, well okay, I will give gnome3 a try I guess.
16:33:19 <elliott> yeah, gnome three appears to be almost identical to two
16:33:21 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't you say you would fork and maintain that?
16:33:31 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, what is gnome-shell like?
16:33:41 <elliott> gnome-shell is the new thing.
16:33:47 <elliott> It is the worst piece of shit ever designed.
16:33:51 <Vorpal> uh, what is it that I use then?
16:34:09 <Vorpal> elliott, uh, isn't gnome-shell the terminal emulator?
16:34:14 <elliott> No, that's gnome-terminal.
16:34:22 <Vorpal> elliott, so they dropped metacity?
16:34:29 <oklopol> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_bisexual_people
16:34:48 <elliott> No, they just aren't using it by default. They're using Mutter, the compositing port of Metacity to Clutter, which is Metacity Three.
16:35:02 <elliott> Vorpal: Re: fork: Yeah, but between the fact that Unity is starting to look like it might actually be pretty good, and the fact that I'm planning to switch to a no-DE system on the desktop, means I'm not sure I care enough.
16:35:11 <Vorpal> elliott, I have to say I'm quite fond of metacity. It isn't fancy, but it gets the job done with minimal fuss.
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17:04:38 <elliott> What the fuck is this game.
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17:14:02 <crystal-cola> baez asks some interesting questions and yudkowski says "I'm writing a book"
17:14:21 <crystal-cola> http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2011/03/07/this-weeks-finds-week-311/
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17:16:17 <elliott> there's a less wrong channel
17:16:27 <elliott> which will have a high portion of transhumanists, i would wager
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17:23:11 <Sgeo_> Done. No observable results for you, though.
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17:23:36 <oerjan> it was a schrödinger comment. and it died.
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17:28:48 <elliott> internet relay porngramming
17:29:00 <elliott> (Deletion log); 13:56 . . Ais523 (Talk | contribs) (deleted "AAAAAAAAAAAAAA": offtopic (and the only contributor was '91.153.119.130'))
17:29:02 <elliott> ais523: what was the content?
17:29:06 <elliott> I need to know so I can make an esolang out of it
17:37:56 * Sgeo_ is no longer a VLC worshipper
17:38:16 <elliott> oerjan: you realise you just agreed strongly with Eliezer Yudkowsky :D
17:38:38 <oerjan> ...i realise you think i did
17:38:51 <elliott> oerjan: it is _impossible_ for you to be sarcastic
17:41:40 <crystal-cola> science is based on the unjustifiable assumption that the world conforms to logic
17:42:18 <elliott> crystal-cola: catch the wave
17:42:30 <elliott> crystal-cola: the wave... of power
17:43:16 <oklopol> elliott is a famous bisexual
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17:43:57 <oklopol> that's my new all-purpose slander
17:44:27 <elliott> your MOM is a famous bisexualist
17:44:42 <elliott> crystal-cola: but if the world doesn't conform to logic then the world conforms to logic, so it's reasonable to assume that the world conforms to logic :D
17:45:36 <ais523> <elliott> ais523: what was the content? <--- childish personal attacks, against someone I've never heard of
17:45:51 <ais523> it's the sort of vandalism Wikipedia gets
17:45:55 <elliott> ais523: I need more details, or I can't make an esolang out of it
17:46:14 <elliott> they posted it in a public place, I have a right to distort it into an esolang!
17:46:14 <ais523> you're not going to get them, because you don't go around repeating personal attacks
17:46:16 <ais523> however silly they are
17:46:21 <Gregor> <crystal-cola> bisexuality = mysogeny // lol, I'd love to hear the logic behind this X-D
17:46:24 <ais523> it's not fair to the person the attacks were against
17:46:26 <elliott> ais523: yes I do, maybe you don't :)
17:46:35 <elliott> was it actually a full name or was it just like
17:46:43 <ais523> but I can't remember it
17:46:47 <elliott> because i'm totally john, and i want to know what they said against me, john
17:47:52 <crystal-cola> oklopol: Nothing is more demeaning to a women than a ``bisexual'' mans distaste and fundamental non-acceptance of her femininity
17:48:30 <crystal-cola> see here http://www.mit.edu/~thistle/v9/9.06/4bisexuality.html
17:48:52 <elliott> crystal-cola: but how did you arrive at that conclusion
17:48:56 <elliott> the universe isn't based on logic
17:49:04 <olsner> <elliott> olsner: I'm going to work on that Forth again :) | <elliott> wait | <elliott> i can't type an at sign
17:49:08 <elliott> it /was/ totally illogical
17:49:31 <Gregor> Skipping to the end, "In conclusion, bisexuality is a form of inclusivity and supports feminism and homosexuality by challenging sexism and heterosexism and by seeking equality of the sexes."
17:49:32 <olsner> did that mean you were unable to do anything with the forth?
17:49:40 <crystal-cola> I don't try to force the false ideals of logic onto everythingg
17:49:54 <elliott> olsner: well i can't test it without renaming at, and at is encoded as zero, which I use to know when to stop searching :D
17:50:01 <crystal-cola> Gregor: yes but if you read it you'd see that she's completely wrong
17:50:04 <elliott> olsner: wanna try and fix my bug? i'll get out my virtual keyboard if you want to take a look :P
17:50:52 <olsner> elliott: no, I'll be watching deadliest catch and whatever other tv series I've missed this week's episodes of... and then have a bath and/or a sandwich
17:50:57 <crystal-cola> There is no reason to use logical or rational thought, the only justification for doing so is because you enjoy it
17:51:09 <elliott> olsner: you're a slave to the machine
17:51:23 <elliott> crystal-cola: <elliott> crystal-cola: but if the world doesn't conform to logic then the world conforms to logic, so it's reasonable to assume that the world conforms to logic
17:51:27 <elliott> crystal-cola: do you have a response to this argument?
17:51:29 <olsner> elliott: yep, mindless consumer and idler
17:51:35 <elliott> it proves that logic is incontrovertibly true, even if it is not
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17:51:54 <crystal-cola> elliott: Assuming logic is true, then since you used logic your argument is false
17:52:21 <elliott> crystal-cola: Logic is invalid. Everything is true and everything is false.
17:52:38 <crystal-cola> I have presented a definitive ``illogical'' refutation of your argument
17:53:07 <elliott> crystal-cola: here's my refutation of your argument
17:53:17 <crystal-cola> you're assuming that true = false, that's not provable
17:53:18 <elliott> that's even less logical and therefore more valid
17:53:25 <elliott> crystal-cola: no, but it doesn't have to be
17:53:43 <elliott> crystal-cola: <elliott> crystal-cola: Logic is invalid. Everything is true and everything is false.
17:53:43 <elliott> <elliott> So logic is valid.
17:53:49 <elliott> Logic is invalid SO LOGIC IS VALID.
17:53:54 <elliott> Or, logic is valid, and so logic is valid.
17:55:20 <olsner> nothing is valid and everything sucks
17:55:53 <elliott> crystal-cola: ayn rand based her philosophy on logic
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17:56:30 <elliott> crystal-cola: what did ayn rand say?
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17:57:02 <elliott> olsner: don't you like debugging short assembly :|
17:57:52 <olsner> elliott: whatever, you'll just put more bugs in afterwards
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17:58:14 <elliott> olsner: this is a damn subtle bug, not even impomatic could find it ;D
17:58:49 <olsner> heh, if it's so subtle, why do you need it fixed?
17:59:22 <elliott> olsner: erm, it's subtle in the sense that the code looks like it's absolutely flawless, and is tiny, yet it breaks badly
17:59:26 <elliott> you can't use the at instruction, for instance
18:00:01 <elliott> olsner: err, it's the at sign
18:00:09 <elliott> olsner: it's a problem with dictionary lookup
18:00:14 <elliott> it would break other words as the dictionary increases in size, almost certainly
18:00:18 <elliott> you'll see what i mean if you look
18:01:33 <olsner> not sure I want to look, it'll probably make me want to investigate
18:02:57 <elliott> olsner: http://sprunge.us/OYVO all the commented out bits are _not_ code i'm debugging, just relics of old interfaces/implementation that I couldn't bring myself to remove entirely (ok it's like four lines)
18:03:00 <elliott> this line, near the end, is the important one:
18:03:01 <elliott> ; If this is uncommented, then trying to execute @ (= 0) reports "?"
18:03:06 <elliott> and the function that is presumably broken is fword
18:03:17 <elliott> which as you can see, is pretty much perfect
18:03:24 <elliott> yes, it's the packed version of \
18:03:32 <elliott> olsner: the fact that the at sign packs to 0 is used to terminate the list
18:03:37 <elliott> so that if it doesn't find a word
18:03:43 <elliott> it can terminate the lookup
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18:03:47 <elliott> you'll see what i mean if you look at fword
18:06:59 <crystal-cola> elliott: she said that the universe defines order, so there is no such thing as an unordered universe
18:07:22 <elliott> ah. and that's interesting, because it's close enough to coherency, and sounds deep enough, that nobody notices it's meaningless
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18:08:43 <olsner> elliott: you have cmp dword [di], and then you jump to something that does cmp word [di] without changing di inbetween
18:08:57 <elliott> olsner: isn't that the point?
18:09:26 <elliott> olsner: hmm, I guess I should check dword
18:09:31 <elliott> because one-c is small enough
18:09:55 <crystal-cola> "The fake philosophical terminology of mathematical logic has misled philosophers into believing that mathematical logic deals with the truth in the philosophical sense. But this is a mistake. Mathematical logic deals not with the truth, but with the game of truth." - Rota
18:10:00 <olsner> the first 2 bytes are the least-significant though, so I doubt that all of it
18:12:52 <olsner> like, it should in fact be a shorter way to check if it's zero, if you know that the low bits are never zero if the high bits are nonzero
18:13:42 <elliott> olsner: i don't know that, though
18:13:48 <crystal-cola> I don't think it's meaningless. The point is that if you exist in some universe then "order" is whatever you perceive
18:13:48 <elliott> i know that nothing but at starts with at
18:14:01 <elliott> and i pack with the first character getting <<d the most
18:14:08 <elliott> so is that in fact a shorter way to check that?
18:15:00 <olsner> so something like f@@@@ would break unless you make it check the full dword?
18:18:07 <elliott> olsner: i think so, yes. but I can make it [at]f, rather than f[at]
18:18:13 <elliott> so it is okay if that breaks
18:18:24 <elliott> but i just want to know why at itself breaks when i add 0x1C before it
18:18:36 <elliott> i think it is because it thinks the dictionary ends at 1C
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18:25:04 <Vorpal> elliott, working on your forth again?
18:25:18 <Vorpal> elliott, how much is done by now?
18:25:31 <elliott> crystal-cola: i'm perfectly interesting, do you mean why am i not interesting to you?
18:25:38 <elliott> maybe because you're not saying interesting things to respond to
18:25:43 <elliott> Vorpal: everything apart from everything
18:25:53 <elliott> crystal-cola: nah, too busy working on my forth
18:26:21 <elliott> not when it's in five-hundred and ten bytes of boot sector
18:26:33 <elliott> bleh, qemu doesn't like xvkbd
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18:45:04 <olsner> elliott: what does \ mean when it's the last character of a line?
18:45:22 <elliott> olsner: can I blame Emacs for that possibility?
18:45:53 <elliott> NASM uses backslash (\) as the line continuation character; if a line ends with backslash, the next line is considered to be a part of the backslash-ended line.
18:45:54 <olsner> of course! I hate emacs
18:46:02 <elliott> olsner: well actually it'll be fizzie to blame
18:46:36 <olsner> to be fair, vim's highlighting doesn't handle comments ending in \ either
18:46:51 <elliott> olsner: well he wrote the one i'm using after stealing it from him :D
18:54:49 <Vorpal> elliott, you were wrong about not needing the log deleter program in uplink. 1) delete in the log directory works like version 1.0 log deleter, so they can be recovered with logundeleter 2) not all systems has a console, internic for example doesn't (and since it never traces it is a very good place to delete logs on)
18:56:00 <elliott> Vorpal: re logundeleter: trash every system you hack into
18:56:05 <elliott> delete sys directory, shutdown
18:56:24 <Vorpal> elliott, doesn't help as far as I can tell for computer handled passive trace
18:56:35 <Vorpal> elliott, besides that means you can never reuse the system for bouncing, no?
18:56:45 <elliott> Vorpal: True, but it helps you achieve the Scorched Earth conduct.
18:56:59 <Vorpal> elliott, does the game track that?
18:57:12 <elliott> (Destroy every single system that can be destroyed, kill or imprison every person that can be killed or imprisoned, then run Revelation to completion.)
18:57:19 <elliott> ((I am trying to get PH to do this.))
18:57:42 <elliott> This includes killing ARC people :)
18:58:10 <Vorpal> elliott, you can't *kill* anyone. You can get them into jail
18:58:34 <olsner> Vorpal: hey, people kill people every day
18:59:02 <elliott> Vorpal: steal the uplink personnel files
18:59:06 <elliott> you will get asked to send them
18:59:16 <elliott> tons of people will get imprisoned and killed
18:59:21 <Vorpal> elliott, right, okay. But no one else than those
18:59:24 <elliott> (your neuromancer or whatever rank becomes Sociopath)
19:01:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I think darwinia reuses the "run software" sound
19:01:50 <Vorpal> hm nope, where else have I heard that sound though
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19:21:32 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> (your neuromancer or whatever rank becomes Sociopath)
19:22:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Since I'd made my initial cash by taking on anti-corporate missions and it was quite high.
19:26:06 <Sgeo__> Instead of giving the agents to Beta or whoever, why not jail them yourself for no good reason?
19:26:16 <Sgeo__> Then maybe hand them over. Can Beta kill people who are in jail?
19:28:01 <Sgeo__> Don't you make much more by bank robberies?
19:28:09 <Sgeo__> And bank robberies don't kill anyone!
19:30:25 <Phantom_Hoover> They're obviously not intentionally such a cash cow, because it's actively gamebreaking.
19:32:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, any idea how the network dual monitor stuff in uplink works?
19:33:03 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, look in the options
19:33:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, click "edit multimonitor options"
19:35:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't know what it does!
19:35:51 <Vorpal> okay one of them just crashed with SIGABRT
19:37:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, there are two new buttons on the "client" on the startup screen of it
19:37:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Not the argument itself, because it looks to be correct, but because this guy is quite clearly a free-market idiot.
19:37:40 <Vorpal> the other called status
19:37:48 <Vorpal> clicking status causes sigabrt
19:37:59 <Vorpal> due to a detected buffer overflow in an assert
19:38:08 <Vorpal> clicking comms brings up an empty world map
19:38:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: lol sixty five pence OH NO
19:38:19 <Vorpal> this seems pretty pointless
19:38:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: also known as approximately 0
19:39:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: twenty-three seconds in, I now know that the Royal family is the absolute cheapest thing our government spends money on
19:39:14 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, watch until he gets to the crown estates bit.
19:39:21 <elliott> "its not the money we spend on them that sucks, its the fact that theure born and never have to do ANYTHING difficult in their life and people around the world are starving to death.."
19:39:32 <elliott> Everyone must do manual labour.
19:40:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: No, I'm anti-idiotic-arguments.
19:40:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, whatever that multimonitor thingy is, it doesn't work
19:41:01 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Although the royal family does have /some/ use: look at America, who doesn't have a powerless highest-class to fawn over. Instead, people like Sarah Palin are famous.
19:41:21 <elliott> The Royal family at least serves as a safe sink for everyone's patriotic adoration.
19:41:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, that doesn't annoy me; the smarmy little man saying "they inherited this land SO OBVIOUSLY THEY HAVE A TRANSCENDENT RIGHT TO IT" does.
19:42:10 <Vorpal> elliott, that is quite an interesting point
19:42:30 <elliott> Vorpal: I copied it from someone else, but I forget who, and it was a long time ago. :)
19:42:43 <elliott> It's a pretty cynical land, mind you.
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19:43:31 <Vorpal> elliott, nasty answer here would be "ah, that explains it", but since I'm not nasty, I wouldn't even dream about saying it
19:43:42 <Vorpal> (yes this is intentionally not very logical)
19:43:48 <elliott> Everyone copies their opinions from everyone else.
19:44:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: This guy does not really sound like a free-market idiot. Free-market idiots don't like the Royal family.
19:45:57 <Vorpal> <elliott> Everyone copies their opinions from everyone else. <--- nasty answer: that was good, where did you copy that from?
19:46:11 <elliott> Vorpal: I made it up my very self >:)
19:46:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: This guy is actually pretty funny :P
19:47:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm sorry, but the "they own the land" bit annoyed me too much to continue.
19:48:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Shut up or we'll kick you out of U.R.E.S.W.N.I.
19:48:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, are you denying that the royals /do/ actually own the land?
19:49:17 <elliott> Hey wait it's /that/ Grey.
19:50:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, would it be possible to gain admin on ever internal service system where it is possible in uplink before they change the password of the first one?
19:51:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, just a small challenge to you ;)
20:00:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WILL YOU TRY MY SCORCHED EARTH CONDUCT
20:01:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, I've decided I don't really mind the whole royal thing that much, though I reserve the right to be contemptuous towards anyone who actually cares about their antics.
20:02:37 <elliott> Oh, certainly; 'TIS FOR THE PLEBIANS
20:03:06 <elliott> The Royal family is utterly unnecessary, but getting rid of them is way more trouble than it's worth and they seem to be worthwhile.
20:05:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I also get the sense that without the disadvantageous deal on the crown estates, there would have been another, more permanent revolution.
20:07:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, wait, you guys lost your monarchy so you just borrowed ours.
20:17:25 <crystal-cola> These individuals are just as emotionally driven and biased as the rest of us, but they're able to generate more and better reasons to explain why they're right—and so their minds become harder to change.
20:19:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yeah this is the channel for english royalty ;DD
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20:20:34 <crystal-cola> Top epidemiologist Jim Carrey claims that vaccinations are causing autism
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20:21:40 <Phantom_Hoover> 20:20:34: <crystal-cola> Top epidemiologist Jim Carrey claims that vaccinations are causing autism
20:22:43 <elliott> i'm not an epidemiologist, but i play one in interviews
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20:50:17 <fizzie> From a conference submission "conflicts of interest" form: "3) This PC member has been a collaborator within the past two years. 4) This PC member is or was an author's primary thesis advisor, no matter how long ago." -- like murder, there is no statute of limitations for thesis advisorship, it seems.
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21:17:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I can't believe people have the _right_ to deny people permission to parody their work.
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21:18:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: But if he /didn't/ ask for permission, he'd have a rather difficult time getting contracts, etc.
21:18:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Al is just a nice guy and as such always asks for permission.
21:22:35 <rapido> arthur whitney's code is conventional: who would ever guess?: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4248#comment-65324
21:23:01 <elliott> Conventional if you totally reformat it :P
21:23:44 <elliott> I like K (though I'm not very good at it), I don't care about Q.
21:23:53 <elliott> I'm more comfortable with J, but K is cool too.
21:24:10 <rapido> elliott: comfortable? really? cool!
21:24:39 <elliott> But then maybe it never gets easier than this :P
21:25:31 <rapido> i wonder if k/q tables is ultimate data structure (there is no such thing)
21:25:50 <elliott> they're quite awkward to do trees in
21:25:58 <elliott> anything that can't do trees naturally can't be the ultimate data structure
21:26:08 <elliott> or, well, maybe i should just say graphs
21:26:13 <elliott> trees are just a subset of graphs after all :)
21:26:18 <elliott> graphs are the closest thing to the ultimate data structure imo
21:26:26 <elliott> after all, that's how they get represented, no matter what the hardware architecture
21:26:42 <elliott> rapido: acyclic? but then how do you represent x = cons y x?
21:27:20 <rapido> elliott: i don't like loopy stuff - i get dizzy
21:28:01 <elliott> isprime n = not . any ((==0) . (n `mod`)) . takeWhile ((<= n) . (^2)) $ primelist
21:28:02 <elliott> primelist = 2 : [x | x <- [3,5..], isprime x]
21:28:10 <elliott> [rapido suddenly gets so dizzy he passes out]
21:28:32 <rapido> primes are fine - they are unique!
21:28:41 <elliott> rapido: clearly you haven't looked at how the code actually works
21:28:58 <elliott> primelist is two, followed by all odd numbers n such that (isprime n)
21:29:10 <elliott> isprime n just checks that the number doesn't divide any of the primes less than n squared :)
21:29:14 <elliott> where does it get the primes?
21:29:18 <elliott> crystal-cola: it isn't, it's Haskell
21:29:22 <elliott> but it's the loopiest code i know of :)
21:29:55 <elliott> rapido: so hand-waving, primelist is just all numbers that isprime, and isprime n just checks nothing in a prefix of primelist divides n :)
21:30:06 <elliott> (and primelist itself is infinite)
21:31:16 <rapido> elliott: can you rewrite this into Y-combinator? it believe you can
21:31:26 <elliott> you can rewrite any recursion with the y combinator
21:31:32 <elliott> but primelist isn't a function, it's just a list
21:31:50 <crystal-cola> haskell doesn't need Y combinators, U is enough due to lazyness
21:31:53 * elliott thinks rapido should be a lot dizzier round about now
21:33:58 <rapido> i like fixed point combinators exactly because it doesn't require (lazy) cyclic definitions
21:34:33 <elliott> the Y combinator requires laziness btw btw
21:35:41 <elliott> wikipedia calls the strict version Z
21:35:42 <elliott> Z = λf. (λx. f (λy. x x y)) (λx. f (λy. x x y))
21:35:55 <monqy> nice lambdas there
21:35:55 <elliott> of course in languages with non-function types, this can only be used on a function, which sucks a bit
21:36:00 <rapido> elliott: not if you feed the (derivative) Y combinator a fixed number of iterations after which it should stop
21:36:05 <elliott> monqy: yeah, thank wikipedia :p
21:36:35 <rapido> it make the Y combinator a total function - ah yeah!
21:36:57 <elliott> yeah, by way of being totally ugly
21:37:12 <elliott> anyway, it's not enough, it's total but you can't list all the cases
21:37:26 <elliott> it must only take a thirty-two bit natural number of iterations
21:37:32 <elliott> that way, we can write all the possible cases out
21:37:45 <elliott> I'm starting the Order of Ultrafinitist Programmers, we code exclusively in lookup tables
21:38:05 <crystal-cola> The sad thing is most programmers are already ultrafinitists
21:38:19 <elliott> that sounds like an unlikely propositio
21:38:21 <rapido> lookup tables - that's finite enough for me
21:38:25 <crystal-cola> using languages that dont admit infinite lists and such
21:39:12 <monqy> don't most programmers use turing-complete languages
21:39:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm. I removed /r/pics and /r/gaming from my front page and I now see the advantage of having them.
21:39:40 <rapido> i read that a total functional language can't emulate itself - is this true?
21:40:37 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What advantage?
21:40:39 <rapido> or is it the other way around :)
21:40:54 <crystal-cola> rapido: it's the same as all the other diagonalization arguments
21:41:14 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, they buffer out stuff that is actually interesting with mindless dross *very* effectively.
21:41:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: And this is a good thing why? :P
21:42:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Because stuff that is actually interesting sucks in time way too well.
21:44:56 <zzo38> rapido: I don't know
21:45:39 <rapido> zzo38: i also don't know (what you're referring to?)
21:45:57 <zzo38> I don't know, if it is true, if a total function language can't emulate itself.
21:47:32 <rapido> zzo39: the guys and girls from LTU say it can't be: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/3076
21:48:01 <crystal-cola> If e : N -> (N -> N) is an evaluator and for every function f : N -> N suppose there was a code c : N such that e c = f then let f n = e n n + 1 and x be the code for f then f x = e x x + 1 = f x + 1
21:48:40 <crystal-cola> this is standard diagonalization argument like Turin
21:49:00 <rapido> my gut feeling says you can - but you need BigNums
21:49:12 <rapido> BigNums that are finitie
21:50:04 <rapido> let's say you want to generate x numbers
21:50:26 <crystal-cola> I guess mathematical proof is not enough to convince you
21:50:28 <zzo38> BytePusher is one system that uses lookup tables for everything. (I think)
21:50:30 <copumpkin> if you're talking about "total functional languages" and whether they can emulate themselves in theory, you shouldn't even be considering anything but infinite numbers
21:50:47 <copumpkin> machine integers are irrelevant to the discussion, let's say
21:50:49 <rapido> and you define a function that takes x^x - it is still finite - but slow
21:52:04 <copumpkin> there's the question of what 0^0 is
21:52:17 <elliott> crystal-cola is arguing in the bullshit sense, though.
21:52:25 <crystal-cola> there is no evidece that numbers bigger than 1000000000000 can be exponentiated
21:52:33 <elliott> crystal-cola: you're using the unjustified assumption that LOGIC IS VALID
21:52:40 <elliott> therefore exponentiation is total
21:52:44 <rapido> i like total functions - call me sane
21:53:17 <crystal-cola> using logic one finds evidence that exponentiation is different
21:53:37 <rapido> i also like rewriting languages: 0^0 may be should be left not to be rewritten
21:53:52 <crystal-cola> There is no reason anything should be justified
21:55:55 <rapido> i would just leave x^x as is.
21:56:27 <Vorpal> anyone know a ray tracing engine that can handle diffraction? From what I can tell, povray can't.
21:56:30 <rapido> if x was replaced with 0
21:56:44 <zzo38> I think $0^0=1$ is make sense (in general).
21:56:48 <rapido> ray tracing? - ah yeah!
21:57:49 <rapido> Vorpal: what's diffraction? does it concern 'corner cases' ?
21:57:57 <Vorpal> what do you mean with that
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21:58:16 <Vorpal> also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffraction
21:58:34 <Vorpal> in fact, full interference simulation would be even better...
22:00:32 <rapido> Vorpal: can you implement a turing complete language on top of a interference simulation? - i guess you can
22:00:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, kinda-sorta possible, but it makes the process take much longer.
22:00:46 <Vorpal> err. that was not my intention in this case
22:01:05 <zzo38> But is it possible?
22:01:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, offline rendering here in any case, and I'm making one image, not a movie. So time is not an issue.
22:01:36 <fizzie> So you're ready to compute for three years for your image?
22:01:48 <zzo38> Do you need faster computer?
22:02:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh, is that the time scale we are talking about?
22:02:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, a week or two: yes
22:02:28 <rapido> ah, multi cores - they make programming lousy
22:02:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: Just a generic "time is not an issue" comment; but it's certainly possible to easily add a couple of order of magnitudes in ray-tracering.
22:02:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, remind me, do raytracers work from light sources?
22:02:58 <zzo38> rapido: How do they make programming lousy?
22:03:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, there is both backward and forward ray tracing
22:03:15 <elliott> rapido: not if you program functionally.
22:03:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so: both are possible, sometimes a mixture of them I think
22:03:52 <fizzie> I don't think raytracers generally do diffraction; I mean, they're *ray*tracers. (And even particle-oriented things like POV-Ray's photon mode might not bother with that level of detail.)
22:04:12 <rapido> zzo38: because you should abstract away multi-cores - but they always bite back through share memory :)
22:04:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I think the big problem is that you can't keep rays as rays: they don't bend when they diffract, they... fuzz.
22:05:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway, the kind of stuff I need here is the detail of the iridescence of a CD. Yes I realize it will be slow. No clue how slow.
22:05:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: Typically you just fake that sort of things.
22:05:26 <elliott> hmm, I wonder if I could do this with tup
22:05:36 <rapido> of course - if you program functionally you don't have share memory (if you don't consider the garbage collector)
22:05:39 <zzo38> rapido: Why should you abstract away multi-cores? Shouldn't you simply write the program for each core (some of which may run the same program)? Shared memory is needed for this to work good, isn't it?
22:05:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, but how would one compute how exactly the pattern would look?
22:05:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, okay, I'm willing to give up on ray tracing. Lets do wave propagation or something
22:06:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: LuxRender's "TODO/papers for inspiration" page points to http://www.dgp.toronto.edu/people/stam/reality/Research/pdf/diff.pdf -- a siggraph paper about anisotropic surface reflections. But it's not something that's implemented.
22:06:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes quite. That was just an example.
22:07:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, hrrm, that "Alias | wavefront" sounds familiar... Isn't it a commercial render?
22:08:26 <rapido> ellliot: 'tup'? very intriguing - but what is it?
22:08:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's a commercial company. But they did that Maya 3D modelling thing.
22:09:00 <fizzie> The paper uses a CD as an example.
22:09:04 <elliott> rapido: Oh, it's just a build system thing. I'm trying to automate boring things.
22:09:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, well yes, it is an obvious example
22:09:59 <rapido> elliott: boring stuff? hey - i'm into CMMi level 3 stuff - talk about boring
22:10:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: "We have implemented our reflection models as various shaders in our MAYA animation system" -- right.
22:10:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, if this can handle edge diffraction I'm in heaven
22:10:22 <elliott> rapido: well, tup is http://gittup.org/tup/
22:10:58 <rapido> DAGs! I love them! - did i mention that earlier?
22:11:15 <elliott> rapido: but tup's are better because the arrows go upwards.
22:11:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also the poor man's choice, http://matrep.parastudios.de/index.php?action=view&material=448-cd&fc=14 :p
22:12:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is a faked one
22:12:11 <rapido> upwards? is it purely functional?
22:12:33 <elliott> rapido: It's a build system, the WHOLE POINT is sideeffects :P
22:12:34 <fizzie> Well, in a sense they all are faked ones.
22:12:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, and since I'm not doing a CD, it isn't very useful. I too used a CD as an example :P
22:13:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, in fact I'm interested in edge diffraction, as can be seen around the shadow of a leaf or such.
22:13:38 <rapido> elliott: ah ha! i think build systems should generate immutable artifacts! - SO THERE!
22:13:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, meaning that the paper you linked doesn't really help
22:14:04 <Vorpal> not edge diffraction as far as I can tell
22:14:13 <fizzie> You might be asking for a bit too much there.
22:14:26 <elliott> rapido: but artifacts belong in a museum
22:14:29 <rapido> 'I apologize in advance if someone besmirches your honor and you are unable to properly defend yourself as a result.' <- VERY AMUSING
22:14:34 <elliott> ooh, museum would be a good immutable data storage name
22:15:08 <rapido> elliott: oh, oh - can i use your invention 'museum'? it's great
22:15:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm not asking for it to be fast. I'm asking for it to be possible to batch render over a couple of weeks on a modern computer to a reasonable quality, that is all.
22:15:25 <elliott> the client library will be called indiana
22:15:32 <elliott> now where do the nazis come in
22:15:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no. that wouldn't be edge diffraction mostly
22:16:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: You could start browsing from http://arxiv.org/abs/1101.5490 and the Freniere1999/Tsingos2000 references; but I think it's quite unlikely you find these things implemented anywhere.
22:16:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, what are you possibly doing that involves edge diffraction?
22:17:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, rendering an image!
22:17:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why are you asking?
22:18:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, because then special-case cheating can be considered.
22:18:40 <fizzie> Yes, I think "just fake it" is quite likely to be the most practical answer for your question.
22:19:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that of a tree with a light from behind is what I'm considering. Giving the right setup you should be able to see edge diffraction around the leaves.
22:20:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but yeah, if it is this hard I'll probably not invest time into it
22:20:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Anyway, the arxiv paper has a GPU real-time CD example; and the famous double-slit experiment rendered, too.
22:20:41 <fizzie> (I'm quite sure they don't bother sharing any code, though.)
22:22:38 <zzo38> Can you do it if they do not share the code too?
22:23:11 <fizzie> Theoretically speaking articles are supposed to be detailed enough for anyone to reproduce their results.
22:23:25 <fizzie> Quite often there's details missing, though.
22:23:29 <rapido> i want executable esoteric languages - above narrative esoteric languages - although i like story telling above reality.....
22:23:40 <zzo38> Then the article should be a WEB or CWEB program to ensure that no details are left out.
22:24:18 <zzo38> And then you can download the source file and compile it, and reproduce their results for sure!!
22:24:24 <fizzie> Even worse if it's just a four-page conference paper; those things take so many shortcuts.
22:24:55 <ais523> elliott: ouch, the darcs people are apparently implementing a rebase
22:25:07 <zzo38> ais523: What does that mean?
22:25:17 <ais523> in order to help it fix conflicts that itcan't figure out automatically, but still
22:25:25 <ais523> zzo38: rebase is a feature of git that lets you edit history to make it neater
22:25:32 <ais523> and thus, less accurate to what actually happened
22:25:34 <elliott> ais523: we must team up with our enemies in the Camp team to stop this atrocity at once
22:25:37 <ais523> and it causes all sorts of issues
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22:26:39 <rapido> you can edit history without changing the past
22:27:19 <rapido> you just create an alternative history
22:27:39 <rapido> and leave the past (1 example of history) as is
22:27:45 <ais523> that's not what git does, though
22:27:50 <ais523> and then it gets confused because the histories don't match
22:29:06 <rapido> is git confluently persistent? - if not - it should be fixed to be that way
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22:29:51 <zzo38> I don't know, I have set up a git repository and I do not use most of its features, so maybe I don't care either.
22:30:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm I wonder if http://arxiv.org/abs/1101.5490 has been implemented anywhere? Considering the date, of publishing, probably not
22:30:18 <Vorpal> well, outside their system
22:31:55 <rapido> zzo38: has git bitten you in a way that you didn't expect?
22:33:59 <rapido> zzo38: are you alone? or are you part of a big team?
22:34:20 <zzo38> rapido: I have only worked on it alone.
22:35:02 <Vorpal> most version control systems work flawlessly when only a single person is using it
22:36:57 <zzo38> It is however, design so that also other people can make fork, and make other projects too, including to download and copy it. So it is possible for other people to do it even though it is only single I work on it, but as far as I know, nobody does, but that's OK. If other people have suggestion they can write elsewhere instead.
22:37:04 <olsner> Vorpal: no, only the flawless ones
22:37:13 <rapido> zzo38: i'm alone but working with a lot of people: then i try to explain versioning / baselining- get stale looks ....and the scarce reply is: very interesting stuff!
22:40:06 <rapido> checking out :) it's 00.30 in the netherlands
22:40:18 -!- rapido has quit (Quit: rapido).
22:40:30 <olsner> it should be 00.39 in the netherlands
22:41:47 * Phantom_Hoover reads Reddit some more, concludes that he is somehow socially competent.
22:42:44 <Phantom_Hoover> In the way that people acknowledge my existence on a regular basis, although admittedly there's a titanic confirmation bias acting against Reddit.
22:43:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: being mentioned in the context of being "that faggot" doesn't count as acknowledgement, Phantom_Hoover
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22:59:17 <pikhq> It would seem that Tup could use a way to specify an alternate means of seeing if a file has changed...
22:59:29 <elliott> pikhq: HAVE YOU BEEN READING THE LISTS
22:59:55 <pikhq> elliott: Yes, but I had actually been thinking that earlier today.
22:59:59 <elliott> pikhq: What I'm trying to do is bootstrap Kitten using tup.
23:00:15 <elliott> pikhq: Which means that going from only my handful of tup files and maybe some patches, it will download and build every stage of Kitten.
23:00:46 <pikhq> It'd be very nice to be able to, say, specify that a file is changed if the output from a program has changed.
23:01:16 <pikhq> This would, incidentally, allow you to do optional checksumming.
23:01:18 <elliott> pikhq: I'm considering just doing : foo.stamp |> wget http://blah/ -O [percent]o |> foo/blah.
23:01:22 <elliott> pikhq: That'd be ugly, but /shrug
23:01:26 <elliott> It's probably what I'd do with make.
23:01:27 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, that is the meme.
23:01:44 <pikhq> elliott: Ugly, but it functions without any changes in Tup.
23:02:03 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, and the other way would imply like five curl calls every "tup upd"...
23:02:34 <pikhq> elliott: Yeah, but five curl calls to just check the mtime of the remote file...
23:02:52 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: The reason for this meme is that Americans place much more importance on the aesthetics of teeth than Britons.
23:03:42 <pikhq> *In fact*, the average Englishman has much healthier teeth than the average American. Just not as straight and sparkling.
23:04:49 <pikhq> elliott: Those remote calls won't take much time, especially with parallelism.
23:05:00 <elliott> pikhq: But but tup is so fast otherwise.
23:05:18 <pikhq> Though a more obvious problem with calling out to an external program to check for any changes is that it throws off the autoupdate feature.
23:05:57 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, I can vouch that that is very much not the case in other parts of the UK.
23:06:16 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: How common are dental braces in the UK?
23:07:35 <Phantom_Hoover> As in, in a given group of people I know, some of them will probably have braces or retainers.
23:07:57 <pikhq> Is it a procedure that is going to be done on anyone without impeccable teeth that can afford it?
23:08:22 <olsner> they have braces? maybe you should tell them to stop coding C/C++/Java
23:08:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it was recommended for me, but I do have a gap between my upper front teeth that my tongue can fit into.
23:09:17 <elliott> I have a totally fucked up tooth.
23:14:27 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, consider, though, that a friend of my mother's who is a primary school teacher in NI said that literally all of her class had rotten teeth.
23:14:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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23:16:46 <Phantom_Hoover> (Yes, she is one of those idiot teachers who result in almost all children being dead to education before they pass 8. No, I am not allowed to do anything about this.)
23:18:57 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Well, in Scotland at least. <-- YOU MEANT WALES
23:19:49 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I suggest you murder her.
23:20:17 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, she's retired now on medical grounds the details of which I am unaware.
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23:20:47 <Phantom_Hoover> This surprised me until I realised that I had severely underestimated her age due to how mindmeltingly shallow she is.
23:23:58 <elliott> WE REQUIRE DETAILS ON TEACHING TERRIBLENESS
23:25:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know the details, or have repressed them so I can stay slightly afloat in the ocean of cynicism.
23:25:18 <elliott> HOW DID YOU KNOW SHE WAS A TERRIBLE FEATURE
23:29:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, she emanates this aura of "it is CRITICALLY IMPORTANT that children be FORCED TO LEARN TO READ by the time they are FIVE otherwise WHAT IS THE POINT OF THIS ANYWAY"
23:29:28 <elliott> there are children who enter school without being able to read? :)
23:29:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, although it is inconceivable to such intellects as ours.
23:30:00 <pikhq> elliott: There are students who enter high school functionally illiterate.
23:30:02 <elliott> well, they can go to the retard school.
23:31:25 <elliott> just keep having babies and cull the ones who don't demonstrate above-average intelligence at the age of five, duh
23:32:05 <pikhq> It's pretty poorly taught pretty much everywhere that has non-trivial orthography->phoneme mapping.
23:33:13 <elliott> (dogs are about as smart as five year olds)
23:33:22 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Hard to do, courtesy of the wide variety of phonemic variation in English.
23:34:44 <Phantom_Hoover> The number of actual *collisions* in pronunciation is relatively low between accents.
23:35:10 <pikhq> It's just that each accent recognises a different set of phonemes...
23:35:55 <pikhq> Heck, it'd be somewhat annoying just accounting for rhotic vs. nonrhotic accents.
23:36:25 <elliott> I just imagined a Britain where Geordie is enforced by law.
23:36:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Even then. Collisions aren't all that common, and you can solve them generally by splitting them and merging it in accents that do so.
23:36:32 <elliott> IMAGINE THE QUEEN SPEAKING GEORDIE PH
23:36:43 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
23:36:47 -!- elliott has joined.
23:37:02 <Phantom_Hoover> NO BECAUSE I DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT GEORDIE SOUNDS LIKE
23:37:59 <Sgeo__> Windows Media Player is my new .wav player
23:38:04 <Sgeo__> Because VLC currently sucks
23:38:43 <Sgeo__> (Well, not "sucks", but has one particular currently unbearable bug. Fixed in 1.2. 1.2 is not available to download as far as I can tell)
23:42:17 <elliott> pikhq: Is it just me, or is there no way to specify PATH in tup?
23:45:11 <pikhq> elliott: Well, it is passing the build commands to /bin/sh...
23:45:21 <elliott> pikhq: Well yes but I mean globally.
23:45:41 <pikhq> Doesn't seem to be any way of specifying environment variables globally in tup.
23:45:54 <elliott> I may have to resort to PURE SHELL SCRIPTS
23:49:33 <zzo38> All of my plans in D&D game are those that the dungeon master fails to understand but it works anyways
23:49:41 <zzo38> (Sometimes even I fail to understand, too)
23:50:19 <Phantom_Hoover> So anyway I was looking in my fridge today and I found a shot of flu vaccine lying behind the vinaigrette.
23:51:02 <zzo38> Did you put that in the fridge?
00:06:18 <zzo38> gopher://csv.example.org:7070/1q_3844/18816_019915
00:08:26 * Phantom_Hoover ponders shooting up on flu vaccine for the comedic effect.
00:08:56 <zzo38> elliott: Are you sure?
00:10:40 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: If is not good idea, then don't do (unless you happen to like bad ideas, that is).
00:18:32 <zzo38> Choose one -- choose one, or choose another one. If you don't, you may choose to choose another choose.
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00:33:07 <zzo38> I invented a Magic: the Gathering card: All non-legendary permanents have Cumulative Upkeep-double your life total. At the beginning of each player's first main phase, if that player's life total exceeds one million, that player loses the game.
00:34:05 <zzo38> (This text is on a Legendary card, which means you cannot sacrifice it to itself)
00:37:34 <Yahweasel> https://github.com/mozilla/narcissus/pull/31 <-- has everyone observed my greatest piece of code ever written?
00:37:52 <elliott> What happens if you feed that thing space?
00:38:15 <elliott> What's with the first param though?
00:38:23 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> glogbot, ow my brain
00:38:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit Yahweasel don't screw up my tab complete like that.
00:38:34 <Yahweasel> elliott: ... the first param is the character being checked ...
00:38:49 <Yahweasel> Some characters are allowed as the first character, others aren't.
00:38:59 <Yahweasel> first says "oh by the way this is the first character so test it in that position"
00:39:06 * elliott ponders embarrassing Gregor by posting "I think it needs more cowbell." as a comment on that pull request.
00:39:12 * pikhq is certain that tup is the best thing evar
00:39:25 <elliott> pikhq: IT'S STILL AN AGENT OF THE UNIX MILITARY-INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX
00:39:29 <zzo38> Yes I can see how it works.
00:39:42 <zzo38> Although it is strange and I do not know why you want this code.
00:40:03 <pikhq> elliott: So's everything else.
00:40:22 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I CAN MAKE IT
00:40:33 <Phantom_Hoover> (Windows is the most subtle and effective part of the UMIC.)
00:41:01 <Yahweasel> zzo38: JavaScript allows any character in the Unicode letter classes to be an identifier character. That's thousands of characters, and there is no simple test for which is which (conventionally people just have a giant list)
00:41:30 <zzo38> That is a problem of Unicode, I think.
00:41:31 <elliott> zzo38: Narcissus is a JavaScript interpreter in JavaScript.
00:41:51 <elliott> Yahweasel: :trying to justify any non-trivial bit of code to zzo38 as not being a problem of the perfectly good things you're using:
00:41:53 <zzo38> elliott: Then that program is cheating
00:42:06 <elliott> Yahweasel: (OK, I do this too :P)
00:42:38 <Yahweasel> It's not cheating, it's metacircular :P
00:42:47 <zzo38> O, is that different?
00:42:53 -!- Yahweasel has changed nick to Gregor.
00:42:58 <elliott> YOU FEEL METACIRCULAR PUNK
00:43:10 * pikhq is increasingly of the opinion that hand-writing a ./configure and a Tupfile is significantly better than using Autocruft.
00:43:25 <elliott> It's awesome to watch pikhq slowly turning into me :D
00:43:28 <Gregor> Metacircular = using host interpreter features to enable the guest interpreter, short of actually polluting one with the other.
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00:43:30 <elliott> JUST AS IT HAPPENED WITH PH
00:44:08 <pikhq> elliott: You'll note that I have been wanting something better than Autocruft for years.
00:44:24 <pikhq> It's just that most things made it even more painful.
00:44:33 <elliott> pikhq: "The change would be very subtle... It might take ten years or so..."
00:45:43 <pikhq> Perhaps the only "problem" with Tup is that it can't really do the equivalent of "make install" or something. Due to it only focusing on building shit.
00:46:08 <pikhq> Though that's easy enough to fix. ./install
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00:46:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I am upset that noöne has asked me why Windows is a vital part of the UMIC, but I suppose I'm just nicking it from someone else.
00:46:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: because it's so bad it drives people to it.
00:47:32 <pikhq> zzo38: Unix Military-Industrial Complex
00:47:42 <zzo38> What does that mean?
00:50:05 <Gregor> OH BY THE WAY GUYS: Not only does JavaScript support Unicode identifiers and whitespace, it supports Unicode numbers.
00:50:31 <zzo38> Why does it need to support any of these things?
00:51:36 <Gregor> Unicode identifiers for foreign-written code, Unicode whitespace for no half-decent reason whatsoever, and Unicode numbers is the worst idea ever conceived of.
00:53:34 <pikhq> Well, I can understand full-width space.
00:53:54 <pikhq> CJK looks all sorts of weird with half-width spaces.
00:54:28 <zzo38> pikhq: Then they should support full-pitch punctuation as well, isn't it?
00:55:28 <Gregor> The Ogham space mark is the most vital piece of whitespace.
00:55:32 <zzo38> A better code would be one where no lookup tables are needed for this purpose since the information about letters, punctuation, direction, converting uppercase/lowercase, numbers, etc, would be encoded in bits that are part of the code-point.
00:55:51 <Gregor> zzo38: Enjoy your infinite foresight.
00:55:54 <zzo38> This is the problem with unicode, that is requires large lookup tables.
00:56:04 <Gregor> variable: Still not allocated yet >_<
00:56:25 <elliott> Ogham/og/ha/m/o/gh/am/ogha/m
00:56:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, from now on prices in this channel are all to be given in libc.sos.
00:56:54 <elliott> But we'd have to talk in nanolibc.sos for everything that anyone but Gregor can actually afford.
00:56:59 <variable> Phantom_Hoover: no kidding. You sure it is not a gal?
00:57:13 <pikhq> zzo38: It'd be fairly hard to design an encoding that was both compact *and* encoded that useful information...
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00:57:31 <elliott> variable: "Guys" is fairly gender-neutral as these things go.
00:57:40 <pikhq> zzo38: Though it would have the neat property that useful predicates on characters would be a trivial matter of looking at a bit.
00:57:45 <Gregor> "Some guy with a vagina"
00:58:05 <pikhq> Gregor: The worst part is, that does not actually parse as "off".
00:58:08 <elliott> "I was fucking some guy last night" "You're GAY?" "No, are you sexist?"
00:58:25 <elliott> METASEXISM: You assumed the first speaker was MALE
00:59:39 <Gregor> Apparently Minecraft costs $1.
00:59:44 <pikhq> Though I think that "Some guy with a vagina" would plausibly get interpreted as someone trans...
01:00:41 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Lookin' for centilibc thar genius?
01:01:00 <Gregor> <-- uses imperial digits
01:01:34 <pikhq> Gregor: USE EMPIRICAL DIGITS INSTEAD
01:01:37 <Gregor> Apparently German eggs don't come in dozens. They come in double baker's third dozens.
01:01:43 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> DON'T MOCK ME WITH YOUR ABILITY TO DIVIDE BY TEN
01:01:46 <variable> elliott: I know. I was semi joking
01:01:47 <HackEgo> 372) <Phantom_Hoover> DON'T MOCK ME WITH YOUR ABILITY TO DIVIDE BY TEN
01:02:18 <pikhq> Gregor: ... They split an egg in 2/3rds?
01:02:49 <Gregor> pikhq: No, they come in boxes of a double baker's third dozen!
01:03:14 <pikhq> Again: they split an egg in 2/3rds?
01:03:21 <Gregor> Your application of "baker's" leaves much to be desired.
01:03:28 <pikhq> A baker's dozen is 13.
01:03:54 <Gregor> A baker's dozen is 13, and half a baker's dozen is 6.5, but what's a baker's half dozen?
01:04:07 <pikhq> Your application of grammar makes Grammar Hitler want to kill some Grammar Jews.
01:04:24 <elliott> I'm ordinary Hitler and I just want to kill some ordinary Jews.
01:04:36 <pikhq> It shall be the Final Grammatical Solution.
01:04:46 <pikhq> elliott: You would!
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01:05:21 <Gregor> I don't know how else to put it.
01:05:28 <Gregor> They come in a double baker's third dozen.
01:05:42 <Gregor> I don't really understand egg unit conversions so I have to present it in terms of dozens.
01:05:51 <pikhq> Gregor: Give a number.
01:06:08 <Gregor> pikhq: It's double a baker's third dozen!
01:06:16 <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, Hitler! You and your wacky antics!
01:06:18 <HackEgo> 373) <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, Hitler! You and your wacky antics!
01:06:36 * pikhq shall just assume they have 2/3rd eggs in Germany.
01:06:42 <elliott> So a baker's half dozen is seven.
01:06:48 <elliott> So they come in fourteens.
01:06:55 <elliott> So a baker's third dozen is...
01:06:59 <elliott> A third dozen is twelve divided by three.
01:07:09 <elliott> Gregor: Do they come in eights?
01:07:18 <pikhq> Gregor: A baker's third dozen would be 5.
01:07:28 <elliott> So they come in twice that, i.e. ten.
01:07:29 <Gregor> I think that's what he called it, yeah.
01:07:45 <pikhq> Why the pfargtle would they come in 10?
01:07:49 <Gregor> I mean I know what ten pencils is or something, but not what ten ... eggs is. I just don't get egg unit conversion.
01:08:11 <pikhq> ... Why do they come
01:08:17 <pikhq> in dozens here, anyways?
01:08:33 <pikhq> Gregor: "Egg" is the unit.
01:09:03 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It'd be nicer still if we used base 12.
01:09:10 <elliott> Gregor is trolling pikhq so successfully :P
01:09:10 <Gregor> pikhq: Because that's how many eggs a non-union hen lays. The German Hen Union went on strike to reduce their egg production.
01:09:58 <pikhq> Unless, of course, you killed my father.
01:10:03 <pikhq> In which case, prepare to die.
01:10:05 <elliott> Base eleven could work, if we kept our hands in our pockets. IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE OF PENIS
01:10:33 <elliott> "Nine, ten, ... aww, damn, time to open the porn bookmarks."
01:12:04 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: BTW, there are cultures with base 12 numbering.
01:12:58 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, including whatever Euro-Arabic-whatever milieu is generally called Western culture.
01:13:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, there's a reason eleven and twelve are special cases, and dozen exists as a word.
01:13:47 <elliott> And time is base twelve too.
01:13:54 <pikhq> Eleven and twelve are not remnants of a base 12 numeral system.
01:13:56 <elliott> Or base twenty-four with decimals or similarly-awkward constructions.
01:14:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Remember that imperial units are base twelve.
01:14:24 <elliott> Apart from actual honest-to-god pure numbers, we used to be pretty damn base-twelve.
01:14:25 <pikhq> And only in Germanic languages...
01:14:44 <zzo38> pikhq: Then why are the word "eleven" and "twelve", then?
01:14:50 <pikhq> elliott: We used base-12 units with base-10 numbers.
01:15:12 <elliott> pikhq: Sure, but we tended to always use the closest unit, unlike metric, where we tend to stick to three decimal places.
01:15:17 <pikhq> zzo38: Cognate with something like "one ten" and "two ten", and evolved into special cases.
01:15:41 <pikhq> And "dozen" is cognate with "duodecim", coming by way of French...
01:15:49 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Remember that imperial units are base twelve.
01:15:58 <pikhq> Sorry, s/duodecim/DVODECIM/
01:16:03 <elliott> OK they're base twelve except on Sundays.
01:16:12 <pikhq> And, yeah, only certain of the imperial units are base twelve.
01:16:16 <pikhq> Some of them are base-WTF.
01:16:27 <pikhq> Most of them, really.
01:17:22 <pikhq> Uh, the units of volume are powers of *two*...
01:18:03 <pikhq> Modulo confusing instances, of course.
01:18:13 <pikhq> (3 Tbsp to the jigger...)
01:18:43 <elliott> SI prefixes: THE FORCE OF BORING IN THE WORLD???
01:19:29 <pikhq> Heck, the whole imperial system would actually make some *sense* if it were base 12. :P
01:26:22 <zzo38> Assume you are playing Magic: the Gathering with many players, all for themself (no teams). The card is "Whenever a player loses the game, choose one -- You gain 20 life; or target player loses 20 life." I think this might make everyone wants to beat you now, instead of each other, isn't it?
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01:29:57 <zzo38> O no, how am I going to play D&D without a stapler???
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02:20:40 <elliott> pikhq: Should I just modify sabotage to get the initial Kitten, or is that LOSER TALK?
02:20:48 <elliott> (It has bootstrap scripts.)
02:27:23 <Gregor> <Gregor> v8> function ᚏᚇᚈᚁᚍ() { return "ᚁᚌᚌ ᚔᚈᚅ ᚃᚏᚏᚌ ᚋᚉᚄᚓ ᚐᚒᚏᚇᚒᚁᚍ ᚉᚎ ᚏᚇᚈᚁᚍ!"; }; ; var ᚏᚆᚉᚅᚄ = ᚏᚇᚈᚁᚍ(); ᚏᚆᚉᚅᚄ;
02:27:24 <Gregor> <v8bot> Gregor: "ᚁᚌᚌ ᚔᚈᚅ ᚃᚏᚏᚌ ᚋᚉᚄᚓ ᚐᚒᚏᚇᚒᚁᚍ ᚉᚎ ᚏᚇᚈᚁᚍ!"
02:27:32 <Gregor> JavaScript, friends and countrymen.
02:27:47 <elliott> Gregor: omg, I'm gonna pioneer a js obfuscator using that
02:28:05 <elliott> "Render your code completely unreadable by anyone but Ogham natives"
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02:32:40 <Gregor> I just still can't get over the fact that Ogham space mark is whitespace :P
02:32:57 <elliott> But we don't discriminate against HER in our languages.
02:33:59 <Ilari> Oh, APNIC IPv4 remaining (including reserved block) is 0.99 now (haven't been looking at it for a while).
02:34:17 <elliott> Ilari: How long until it's all over and we can stop caring X-D
02:34:44 <Ilari> Well, APNIC doesn't currently have enough members to allocate it all.
02:35:32 <Ilari> IIRC, If every member got their block, it would take APNIC down to something like 0.7 or so.
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02:49:27 <Gregor> I libtool by convincing Automake that it's building a program and its LDFLAGS include -shared -Wl,-soname,whatever :P
02:51:34 <pikhq> Gregor: Ah, the joys of relative sanity.
02:51:42 <pikhq> Unfortunately, you're still using Autocruft. :P
02:52:34 <elliott> AUTOMATES ALL YOUR BUILDING AND POOPING
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03:09:22 <elliott> olsner: btw, i'm working on the compiler now
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03:47:00 <elliott> WHY IS XEIGHTSIX SO REGISTER STARVED
03:48:00 <oklopol> because you are a famous bisexual
03:48:23 <oklopol> i wonder if i have work today
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03:57:26 <oklopol> it might be one of the easter days, given that there are no lectures, but then again my mom told me that she's a famous bisexual and that she does have work normally
03:58:05 <oklopol> why the fuck isn't this on the uni website
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04:00:29 <elliott> i approve of thsi famous bisexual meme
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04:02:28 <oklopol> i get all my memmes on wikkipedia
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04:05:46 <oklopol> aiewjgrireogaogirejgkfldsa
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04:09:23 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/jFlXZ.png ;; I'm not surprised this program exits, seeing as it's complete syntactical nonsense.
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04:26:45 <oklopol> elliott: the marketing department was like we totally don't need those dorky coder geeks to write this proggy for the ad lol we're smart too
04:27:06 <oklopol> and management was like wow that's a smart
04:27:20 <zzo38> What is your opinion about cooperative chess variants and such?
04:27:43 <oklopol> have very little opinions on anything chess related
04:27:57 <zzo38> oklopol: Have you ever played chess or any variants? Or invented any?
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04:29:40 <oklopol> well everyone's played chess
04:30:16 <zzo38> Do you prefer shogi?
04:30:26 <zzo38> Or do you prefer backgammon?
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04:34:41 <oklopol> zzo38: i prefer games that make me think
04:35:20 <oklopol> those make me do bredth-first search unsuccessfully
04:35:39 <elliott> oklopol: remember your infinite-dimension four in a row?
04:35:47 <oklopol> well backgammon i don't really know, and shogi i just assume is just like chess
04:35:52 <elliott> that was a good game. even if it was unfortunately limited to only the equivalent of the computable reals in coordinates
04:36:07 <elliott> a sad limitation of our crappy third-rate universe
04:36:19 <elliott> oklopol: didn't you have a bot
04:36:42 <oklopol> the bot only allowed eventually periodic sequences of coordinates, i should certainly make a better language for it
04:37:11 <zzo38> oklopol: Shogi is similar to chess. There are a few differences. Do you ever play Go?
04:37:14 <elliott> oklopol: you literally just need (N -> N) in any total FP language :P
04:37:34 <oklopol> but i haven't played enough go to know for sure
04:37:41 <oklopol> it might suck ass too once you get the hang of it
04:39:02 <elliott> oklopol: i wonder if the analogue of the game with all computable functions is somehow non-trivial to AI
04:39:08 <elliott> i guess it's hard to define "picking a computable function"
04:39:11 <oklopol> but maybe the rules should be changed in some way, one piece per turn and four in a row seems kinda meh when you have soooo many of them dimensions
04:39:35 <elliott> and you can place infinity per turn, but somehow it's restricted so you can't put them all in a row
04:39:41 <elliott> basically everything is infinite.
04:39:41 <oklopol> also you always put down an infinite amount of pieces
04:39:59 <elliott> oklopol: also, maybe instead of integer coordinates, they should be reals themselves
04:40:05 <elliott> not for any reason, just, you know
04:40:42 <zzo38> A problem with the game of Go is that it has no well-defined end condition.
04:40:56 <oklopol> maybe games are also played infinitely long
04:40:56 <elliott> that's more an awesome thing than a problem :)
04:41:06 <elliott> oklopol: and all games started at the beginning of time
04:41:11 <elliott> you get a random one from all possible games, and start from there
04:41:21 <elliott> and it's always had infinite moves done
04:41:23 <oklopol> zzo38: i don't think that's very relevant
04:41:36 <oklopol> well it's certainly not relevant in the current discussion, but i mean even for go
04:43:42 <oklopol> elliott: i meant more like, for each ordinal, you define a partially filled board by taking the union of all the last ones and then applying the player functions in succession, then play until the first uncountable ordinal
04:43:47 <zzo38> A variant of Go has well-defined end condition, capturing and placing stones is the same as Go, but it ends when one player has five in a row. So, it is cross between Go and Go-moku.
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04:43:51 <elliott> oklopol: fuck that's hot :|
04:44:10 <elliott> dbc2: you're a long-awaited but inevitably inferior sequel to the original dbc, right?
04:44:13 <oklopol> elliott: that's a pretty standard set theoretic trick, which i may be fucking up... :P
04:44:25 <elliott> oklopol: i know, but it's never been applied to infinite-dimensional four in a row before.
04:44:37 <elliott> erm i don't actually mean four in a row
04:44:51 <dbc2> I'm trying to figure out why a combination of setjmp and alarm doesn't work. Anyone want to have a look at it?
04:44:54 <elliott> imagine inf-d four in a row
04:44:58 <elliott> things fall infinitely far down
04:45:06 <elliott> dbc2: oh dear, that sounds scary
04:45:17 <dbc2> http://pastebin.com/B5tpPxD8
04:45:37 <dbc2> It seemed like the best way to limit the time a computer thinks for, in a two-player game.
04:45:58 * oklopol now wants to do math on inf-anf-oh
04:46:22 <dbc2> When the alarm goes off, it should jump out of, probably, a deeply nested recursive call, and use the best answer it found yet.
04:46:27 <elliott> i dunno how irix or hp-ux would react :-)
04:46:45 <dbc2> It works fine the first time, but the second time, the alarm doesn't go off.
04:47:06 <elliott> dbc2: Perhaps the signal handler for SIGALRM is defined to be cleared when it goes off or something else similarly stupid?
04:47:17 <zzo38> dbc2: The signal handler has to return for it to work.
04:47:36 <elliott> you're not allowed to do that in signal handlers full stop
04:47:39 <zzo38> Make instead, use timing inside of the code making the decision.
04:47:57 <elliott> dbc2: if the thinking is divided into neat "steps" in an infinite loop
04:48:00 <zzo38> A signal handler cannot return if it uses longjmp
04:48:02 <elliott> you could condition it on a volatile global boolean
04:48:07 <elliott> and the signal handler can just flip it
04:48:27 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, that way will work better I guess
04:50:56 <dbc2> http://www.gnu.org/s/libc/manual/html_node/Longjmp-in-Handler.html
04:51:18 <elliott> i'm fairly sure that's gnu-specific at the very least
04:51:58 * elliott tries to figure out which one of pastebin.com's buttons downloads. sigh.
04:52:11 <elliott> but "raw" isn't actually raw...
04:52:45 <zzo38> It is why, I prefer sprunge instead (I learned about sprunge from this channel, actually)
04:53:07 <elliott> dbc2: Are you sure it is OK to setjmp to the same jmp_buf twice?
04:53:12 <elliott> I guess so, since the gnu code does
04:54:20 <zzo38> The problem is that the signal handler cannot return if it uses longjmp. It is required for a signal handler to return.
04:54:22 <elliott> dbc2: hmm... stepping through it in gdb but the longjmp doesn't make me hopeful
04:54:32 <elliott> zzo38: incorrect, at least for glibc: http://www.gnu.org/s/libc/manual/html_node/Longjmp-in-Handler.html
04:55:15 <zzo38> I know there is the Linux man page tells you which commands are allowed in a signal handler, look at that for information.
04:55:49 <elliott> <elliott> zzo38: incorrect, at least for glibc: http://www.gnu.org/s/libc/manual/html_node/Longjmp-in-Handler.html
04:57:33 <elliott> dbc2: interestingly, if i use alarm(9)
04:57:39 <zzo38> OK, I looked at that.
04:57:43 <elliott> dbc2: then it interrupts much before 9 seconds the first turn
05:00:33 <elliott> dbc2: have you tried it with non-alarm signals e.g. sigint?
05:00:39 <fizzie> The problem is that when the signal handler is called, the signal is blocked.
05:00:54 <fizzie> It's automatically unblocked upon exit, but you don't exit.
05:01:11 <elliott> I wonder why http://www.gnu.org/s/libc/manual/html_node/Longjmp-in-Handler.html fails to mention this
05:02:45 <zzo38> fizzie: See? I told you.
05:02:48 <fizzie> At least that's my guess, anyway; man 2 signal says it's a bit platform-dependent whether it does the blocking or something else.
05:03:03 <elliott> zzo38: You didn't tell fizzie, and besides, you were mostly wrong.
05:03:15 <elliott> It is OK to use longjmp in the handler if you're aware of that.
05:03:56 <fizzie> You can use sigaction with the SA_NODEFER flag to explicitly have it not block the signal while in the handler.
05:04:09 <zzo38> There are the commands sigsetjmp and siglongjmp which will deal with blocked signals.
05:04:59 <fizzie> There is also that, right; those can restore the signal masks
05:06:02 <dbc2> Awesome. Thank you. (Is there a way to directly unblock a signal?)
05:07:52 <dbc2> (Just curious. Sigsetjump and siglongjmp fixed it.)
05:11:24 <fizzie> sigprocmask(SIG_UNBLOCK, ...); needs the signal specified via an awkward sigset_t, though.
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05:12:20 <elliott> Does anyone know of a high-performance boids program?
05:12:36 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/coding/comments/gumj1/tinyflock_a_simple_highperformance_threaded_and/ is making me drool over the idea of a fancy-spatial-data-structured GPGPU-accelerated boids program.
05:14:19 <fizzie> I'm sure someone's done some sort of boids CUDA example somewhere.
05:14:25 <elliott> dbc2: BTW, you'll want to set a global to condition on whether to longjmp; after all, you could finish the computation in half a second and still get a longjmp when the alarm goes.
05:14:32 <elliott> fizzie: But will IT use a kd-tree???? HUH?
05:14:36 <elliott> I have updated the Boids code to get 10000 boids on screen at once at 30 frames ... On the CUDA side, instead of working directly on values in global memory ...
05:14:40 <elliott> OK that's quite promising.
05:14:55 <elliott> BUT I DON'T CARE I WANT THE PERFECT BOIDS PROGRAM
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05:15:04 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1SzjsP34PE okay this is pretty.
05:15:21 <fizzie> elliott: One million boidsies, courtesy of a u-tube search: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g60UrbWxt-8
05:15:52 <elliott> fizzie: Such boring colours, though.
05:16:41 <fizzie> The related-suggestions video of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cjorOe810o&feature=related is more colarrful.
05:17:02 <elliott> That's nicer. Although the movement is more boringer.
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05:19:29 <elliott> "C++ is an amazingly uniform and general language considering it started from C."
05:19:59 <lament> what does that make Objective C
05:20:06 <Sgeo__> <elliott> It doesn't work that fast, it's a placebo effect <Sgeo> I took it a while ago
05:20:16 <Sgeo__> Of course, I'm horrible at predicting people
05:20:21 <elliott> lament: an ugly hodgepodge of hundreds of features :D
05:20:44 <Sgeo__> Except I think failure to acknowledge my existence should have been foreseeable
05:21:42 <elliott> cool, racket for linux is distributed as a forty megabyte shell script
05:21:46 <zzo38> When lookoing such things I also found libunwind, which also allows you to access CPU registers (this is not portable unless you only access the IP and SP register, and only for equal/unequal comparison, I think).
05:21:53 <monqy> elliott are you serious
05:22:11 * pikhq can-has Tup'ised bsnes
05:22:17 <elliott> i'm surprised dash's parser doesn't vomit its intestines then segfault
05:22:23 <monqy> one time I had to deal with a 2G shar
05:22:48 <monqy> 2G as in 2 gigabytes
05:22:55 <elliott> don't you mean gibioctets :>
05:22:56 <monqy> maybe another half-gigabyte too I forget
05:23:16 <pikhq> Sadly, I'd need to do a *bit* more work to make it have more general choice of backends.
05:23:39 <pikhq> And this is deserving of kconfig.
05:23:42 <pikhq> But hey, it works.
05:24:03 <elliott> pikhq: BTW, looks like external dependency support isn't going to be added.
05:25:48 <pikhq> elliott: Sad, but understandable.
05:26:12 <pikhq> It produces a lot of headaches, especially in Tup's model, for not *that* much benefit.
05:26:32 <pikhq> Unlike redo, where it's pretty damned trivial to add.
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05:26:57 <elliott> pikhq: yah, but then you can pretty much do it with make too :)
05:27:01 <elliott> by including a generated makefile
05:27:10 <zzo38> If I make a program for Linux systems recording CD/DVD, can be called "rod", takes the device name as the command-line parameter and then records a ISO file from stdin onto the CD/DVD. (Do you know what "rod" is short for?)
05:27:18 <elliott> zzo38: record optical disk
05:27:20 <elliott> pikhq: YOU SHOULD RETURN TO AGORA
05:27:25 <pikhq> elliott: That functioning correctly is a GNU-ism.
05:27:31 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, of course. It does stand for that.
05:27:32 <elliott> everything is a gnuism in make
05:27:51 <pikhq> True, even the pattern rules are a GNU-ism.
05:28:15 <zzo38> (Some people think codenames "Illimitible Illithid" and "Vancouver Island" are obviously not matching a common theme; but they are wrong.)
05:28:15 <pikhq> The "standard" way of doing "%.c: %.o" is ".c.o:", IIRC.
05:28:25 <elliott> pikhq: AGOOOOOORAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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05:28:55 <elliott> i'm yelling at people to return to agora
05:28:58 <elliott> oerjan: AGOOOOOOOORAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
05:34:50 <dbc2> elliott: It won't "finish in half a second", because I'm doing iterative deepening. This is for a minichess program.
05:35:06 <elliott> dbc2: I'm just saying that there's always the possibility your algorithm finishes before the alarm.
05:35:16 <elliott> Simple matter of flicking a variable to make sure that doesn't happen /shrug
05:35:25 <dbc2> Thank you Fizzie and everyone.
05:35:58 <zzo38> dbc2: You make minichess program? And, I want to make tsumeshogi program, maybe I will make tsumeshogi program.
05:36:51 <dbc2> I have a nonterminating loop that does a series of gradually deeper minimax searches with alpha-beta pruning, so it is guaranteed to run forever if the alarm doesn't go off.
05:37:07 <zzo38> I like to play tsumeshogi. Is there any tsumeshogi for Nintendo DS?
05:37:54 <zzo38> I also have the GameBoy tsumeshogi but the adapter card for making it work on Nintendo DS, is broken, so I cannot do that one. Also the "L" button is broken, too.
05:39:10 <zzo38> Do you know how to fix it?
05:40:44 <elliott> oerjan: btw, were you around for lindrum?
05:41:54 <elliott> well you aren't in the log, at least
05:41:59 <elliott> unless you used another name
05:43:09 <oerjan> i'm relatively sure i didn't
05:44:50 <oerjan> um are you talking about that famous scam which i barely remember? if so no i wasn't there.
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05:53:07 <zzo38> Why does Windows have stupid exec in C?
06:00:32 <zzo38> What it looks like to me, is that it joins the passed argv together with spaces in between, and then calls another function which separates them out into the argv array again, this time checking for quotation marks to allow spaces in arguments. ???
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06:03:29 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjbkAECbDBE
06:03:33 <elliott> I have no idea what compelled Google to make this.
06:03:45 <Vorpal> zzo38, I wasn't aware windows had exec, I thought it had that CreateProcessEx?
06:04:16 <zzo38> Vorpal: It does have exec, and it seems to act in the stupid way I described.
06:04:18 <monqy> everybody chromercise
06:04:43 <elliott> monqy: i think this is what they mean by twenty percent time
06:05:40 <zzo38> Windows does not have fork, however. It does have exec.
06:05:42 <monqy> the ending is very tasteful
06:05:49 <elliott> monqy: it's better in full hd
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06:12:07 <zzo38> What is minimax searches with alpha-beta pruning?
06:27:53 <oerjan> * pikhq wonders if other countries do anything similar to the whole Air Force/Marine/Executive One rigamarole...
06:28:42 <oerjan> as just seen in wikipedia's Did You Know: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_One
06:29:30 * oerjan sees elliott is trying to joke his way out of this _obvious_ synchronicity
06:29:53 <elliott> a good portion of this channel
06:30:07 <elliott> i'm not saying that i AM a mystic
06:30:10 <oerjan> not me although i think i will soon
06:30:14 <elliott> i'm just saying that it's synchronicity and you sh-
06:30:18 <elliott> thanks oerjan i needed to know that
06:38:29 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjbkAECbDBE <<< this is probably the best thing i've ever seen
06:40:16 <elliott> oerjan was walking along the street
06:41:24 * oerjan waves his cane angrily at elliott
06:41:31 <oklopol> zzo38: do you know the minimax algo?
06:41:36 <elliott> you're just saying that because you're oldsgfdhgjhm
06:41:40 <zzo38> oklopol: No, I don't. What is it?
06:41:59 <oklopol> just the brute force algo for deciding the optimal way to play a game
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06:42:21 <elliott> let's make -sgfdhgjhm into a meme together
06:42:29 <elliott> oklopol: more like a zero fun game
06:42:44 <zzo38> OK. But are there shortcuts that can be used in some games?
06:42:48 <elliott> oerjan: btw could you delete [[Template:Pre]]? thanks
06:42:57 <oklopol> zzo38: alpha-beta pruning is a shortcut.
06:43:13 <zzo38> oklopol: And what is alpha-beta pruning?
06:43:13 <elliott> i'll prune YOUR alpha-beta than anyone else
06:43:26 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
06:43:46 <elliott> oerjan likes his alpha only moderately well-pruned
06:43:50 <olsner> what is alpha, what is beta, and what is pruning?
06:44:02 <elliott> pruning is when a man and a woman love each other very much
06:45:39 <oklopol> say the algo is choosing the optimal choice for max at node x, and one subbranch of x has already been evaluated completely, giving max the choice of say 5 (max maximizes the value, min minimizes it...). now let's say in the next branch of x, called y, one subbranch z is evaluated, and min has the choice of 3 in there. now because y is a min node, min will either choose 3 or an even smaller value. therefore no other subbranches of y need to be looked a
06:46:14 <oklopol> if you are able to guess the mathematical framework in which we're working, that should be an okay explanation, but i'm skipping a lot of definition
06:47:06 <oklopol> the game is a tree, every second level of it is a max level, every second is a min level, and at the leaves, we have end results (in chess, end result is 1 if max wins, -1 if min wins)
06:47:39 <oklopol> (but usually you will actually also cut the search using a heuristic, and thus have say 0.8 for "max probably wins")
06:47:57 <oerjan> oklopol: you got cut off on that long line
06:48:07 <elliott> oerjan: it was alpha-beta pruned
06:48:19 <oklopol> ...therefore no other subbranches of y need to be looked at
06:48:50 <elliott> oerjan: husfhiufdhihiuuihihubfghigfiusijdfhiufhigjhgifdudfguhidfghiufgdsidfgidfgifdgigifidfgiretirikrjhuedkjej
06:48:55 <oerjan> elliott: i'd prune _your_ alphabet but you're already missing a row
06:51:02 <oklopol> i hate how unmathematical my approach is to this stuff
06:51:18 <oerjan> i assume for just values True and False, alpha/beta pruning is equivalent to what you get if you do minmax using shortcutting boolean operators like haskell's and/or?
06:51:23 <oklopol> a retard could not understand that explanation
06:51:55 <oklopol> all mathematics should be done in such a way that the listener need not be able to think at all
06:52:59 <oerjan> > and [True, True, or [True, error "Boo!"], False, or [False, error "Bah!"]]
06:53:55 <oklopol> it's not very interesting in the case of 0 and 1
06:54:03 <oerjan> although i guess a more clever approach would also use heuristics to evaluate first the branches that seem likely to give a shortcut...
06:55:29 <oklopol> i'm sure it depends on the game
06:55:44 <oerjan> oh hm right it's more subtle with more values
06:55:50 <oklopol> but alpha-beta pruning usually gives you a rather small speed-up
06:56:02 <oerjan> but maybe it could still be done with lazy evaluation...
06:56:33 <zzo38> Is it what else I would be asking, what shortcuts are there that depends on game? Such as, specific to chess, shogi, tsumeshogi, etc
06:58:18 <fizzie> Alpha-beta pruning does work better if you order the moves properly; and if you're doing something like iterative deepening, you can use the previous rounds' results to order them.
06:58:56 <oklopol> zzo38: no idea, but to give an example of what alpha-beta pruning means in this, say one move has been deemed okay, and after another possible move, your opponent can eat your queen, giving him a very nice estimated utility; it then makes no sense to look at his other possible moves, because no matter how much better they are than eating your queen, you will not let him eat your queen anyway!
06:59:06 <fizzie> I seem to recall that alpha-beta pruning with optimal move ordering would turn b^d nodes-to-search into b^(d/2).
06:59:23 <oerjan> zzo38: i have wikipedia's Sprouts game in my watchlist, one of the links there is to someone who uses quite interesting theory based on nimbers to get shortcuts from symmetry
06:59:45 <oerjan> they've used it to calculate winning player for various starting positions
07:00:17 <zzo38> oklopol: But sometimes it might be the better move that requires queen sacrifice
07:01:39 <oklopol> the algo has already checked that after eating your queen, your opponent goes on to eating your king and your physical body
07:01:53 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, it is like what I mean, like symmetry. In shogi you can have the board horizontal mirror is equivalent.
07:01:57 <zzo38> oklopol: O, it does, OK.
07:02:03 <oklopol> point is after that, alpha-beta pruning cuts off the search for a strategy for the opponent that lets it eat the whole fucking world
07:02:07 <oerjan> zzo38: also i've never read it myself but the book in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winning_Ways_for_your_Mathematical_Plays probably contains many such tricks
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07:02:50 <oklopol> there was some fun book that contained x-completeness proof for tons of different games
07:02:55 <zzo38> In a chess game without pawns, you can rotate/mirror any direction to make equivalence.
07:02:57 <oklopol> but i couldn't access it anywhere
07:03:04 <oklopol> except a partial google books version
07:03:22 <zzo38> But shogi is different and can never make this. In shogi only horizontal mirror symmetry counts.
07:03:45 <oklopol> symmetry doesn't give you much in search unless you use it in some very clever way
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07:05:47 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes, I can understand that it is.
07:07:55 <oklopol> oerjan: have you read mathematical playes
07:07:56 <oerjan> zzo38: sadly i don't think chess and the like have the right kind of symmetry. for sprouts if the board splits into two equal halves you can use nimber addition to show that the first player loses (with the standard "first player unable to move loses" winning condition)
07:08:05 <oerjan> oklopol: i said no just above...
07:08:46 <oklopol> i read it as "zzo38: i'm linking this thing here ..."
07:09:10 <oerjan> s/board/game configuration/
07:09:28 <oerjan> well it said that too...
07:10:48 <oklopol> oerjan: have you skimmed the book?
07:12:05 <oerjan> no but it's where they use all of that nimber/surreal number theory and stuff so obviously yes
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07:13:37 <zzo38> But still, are there any shortcuts for searching moves in tsume shogi? There is restriction, such as, first player must give check every turn and has no their own king, second player must delay being checkmated as long as possible. First player loses if they cannot check, and wins if checkmating second player's king.
07:14:06 <oklopol> THE PH LEVEL OF THIS CHANNEL JUST ROSE
07:14:49 <oklopol> it's funny because Phantom_Hoover is a famous bisexual
07:15:19 <oerjan> zzo38: well i cannot say as i don't know tsume shogi, or shogi for that matter
07:15:23 <oklopol> "There is restriction, such as, first player must give check every turn and has no their own king"
07:15:46 <oklopol> i don't know how to... that sentence
07:16:06 <zzo38> This should already make search algorithm shorter because less moves are possible.
07:17:08 <oklopol> "First player loses if they cannot check"
07:17:13 <oklopol> sounds like a slightly broken game
07:17:24 <oerjan> it sounds like it should be possible to do "tshume chess" as well, then...
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07:18:05 <zzo38> oklopol: Tsumeshogi is one player game, the board is set up according to the problem and you have to win in a certain number of moves to solve. Similar to chess problem, a bit.
07:18:07 <oklopol> seriously, how can the first player check on every turn?
07:18:39 <oerjan> it's sort of like restricted chess problems i assume
07:18:51 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, like that.
07:18:53 <oklopol> aren't pretty much all chess problems solvable by computer in a micromoment?
07:19:19 <oerjan> of course there _are_ chess problems where you have to check every turn because otherwise the other player gets to do something disastrous with their queen or the like
07:19:38 <oklopol> most problems i've seen are like that
07:19:55 <oklopol> maybe because that's an easy way to tell the player what to do and i've been doing very easy ones
07:20:23 <oerjan> well if it's to be a fun problem, it needs to be solvable by humans, which pretty much means it must be extremely easy for a computer
07:21:12 <oklopol> i suppose pretty much all combinatorial puzzles are like that
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07:23:21 <oklopol> actually that's a good question, are there fun combinatorial puzzle type of things that computers can't solve but humans can
07:25:01 <zzo38> The difficulty in tsumeshogi is to properly program the "futile interposition" rule, although I suppose it could be programmed without such rule, too; or possibly using a restricted form of that rule: that if second player drops pieces which are captured by the same piece checking on the previous turn, which is the same piece still giving check, and this lasts the same way until checkmate, then you rewind to the point where such thing started.
07:26:27 <oklopol> zzo38: that doesn't sound at all hard to program
07:26:28 <zzo38> oklopol: I mean a piece from off of the board is placed on the board in a vacant position. This is sometimes called "drops". It is a rule in shogi, that chess doesn't have.
07:26:50 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes, it is why I made this restricted futile interposition rule, to make it easy to program.
07:27:17 <oklopol> oh sorry i only read parts of your message
07:29:54 <zzo38> oklopol: I am not exactly sure on the actual futile interpositon rule, actually. But, basically, it is in case you interpose the check and it doesn't help by changing situation to something different, then it is not allowed. See this: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_13/futile.png The piece in the corner is "angle mover" moves like the bishop. The one next to it is "dragon king", like a rook or king. If you move, they can interpose.
07:30:13 <zzo38> (This is, moving causes discovered check in this case.)
07:30:32 <Phantom_Hoover> It's literally as if Zap Brannigan pilots the lighter ships when they're up against heavies.
07:32:31 <oklopol> that zappie is one famous bisexual
07:32:40 <zzo38> Dropping on the diagonal blocks check. Moving down doesn't help (you cannot capture your own pieces). If you move to the right, interposing means if they interpose is futile because you can capture opponent's dragon king, gives check again, interposing that check can be captured and is checkmate (your silver general is next to it, guards it).
07:33:00 <zzo38> See? Rule of futile interposition is very confusing.
07:33:56 <zzo38> oklopol: Do you see what I mean, now?
07:35:49 <Phantom_Hoover> But yes, once the giant laser death frigate appears the other team appear to go for his "clog the enemy cannons with wreckage" tactic.
07:37:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover is a famous bisexual
07:42:11 <zzo38> Restricted futile interposition rule should be easy to program, not even necessary to try all the moves from there. It can simply check all positions in that line. The only checking pieces that can be interposed in this way is: fragrance chariot, flying chariot, angle mover, dragon king, dragon horse. However, it is also necessary to try promotion if applicable, so this is a slight complication (but not too much).
07:42:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover is ignoring my /msgs because he is a nazi.tell your frends
07:44:57 <monqy> hello #esoteric. Phantom_Hoover is ignoring elliotts /msgs because he is a nazi.tell your frends.
07:45:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, dammit I warned you about getting me labelled a Nazi.
07:46:10 <elliott> don't tell everyone i'm a nazi
07:46:14 <elliott> because they will judge me
07:47:25 <oerjan> now if it were also original it'd be something
07:47:43 <zzo38> However, interposition is not always futile, sometimes it is not the entire sequence which is then checkmate because it is possible to make other things half-way through to change stuff.
07:48:11 <zzo38> Such as, king's moves.
07:49:24 <zzo38> Repeatly capturing interposing piece does not change whether or not king can move, though.
07:52:49 <Ilari> Hmm... IPv4 allocation rate on ipv4depletion site is falling pretty rapidly. It was about 2.80 on last Friday. Now it is 2.15.
07:56:41 <Ilari> Hah (reding old comment entries in Huston's IPv4 address report)... "The uncertainty of this September date is +/- 3 months, so that within a 95% confidence level APNIC will exhaust its address pools sometime between June 2011 and December 2011.". That exhaustion happened 14th April.
07:58:56 <Ilari> That real date would be outside of even 99% confidence interval of that prediction.
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10:37:39 <elliott> would that pesky phantom hoover return
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10:51:45 <Vorpal> `addquote <elliott> would that pesky phantom hoover return * Phantom_Hoover (~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486) has joined #esoteric
10:51:48 <HackEgo> 374) <elliott> would that pesky phantom hoover return * Phantom_Hoover (~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486) has joined #esoteric
10:52:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, clearly my WiFi has a sense of humour. Also that quote sucks.
10:52:36 <elliott> It was four minutes late, so yah :P
10:54:14 <elliott> "Scalable SQL: How do large-scale sites and applications remain SQL-based?"
10:54:16 <elliott> An exercise in timewasting.
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11:26:33 <Sgeo__> My dad's pattern recognition: Nonexistent
11:26:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover you are clearly pinged out.
11:27:32 <Sgeo__> Then again, I may be affected by ... selective.. what is it called?
11:31:19 <Sgeo__> He's dragging me to this dinner thing with my step-mom and her sisters. I told him I have plans for tomorrow. He insists we won't be back late. He has work tomorrow. But he always insists that, and guess what?
11:32:18 <elliott> Insert lack of comment about Sgeo__'s failure to exercise own independence because I've given up.
11:33:22 <crystal-cola> Internet chatrooms are virtual meeting places where attitudes are shared, strengthened and validated. In some channels, hackers of hate can sow misinformation about the plight of programmers elsewhere. In our communities, groups and organisations led by young, dynamic innovators promote separatism by encouraging programmers to define themselves solely in terms of their language.
11:33:31 <elliott> thank you for that definition.
11:34:49 * Sgeo__ is not a single-language kind of guy
11:35:00 <Sgeo__> I keep wanting to be for some weird reason
11:35:10 <Sgeo__> But the siren call of new languages..
11:35:36 <crystal-cola> So, let me end with this. This terrorism is completely indiscriminate and has been thrust upon us. It cannot be ignored or contained; we have to confront it with confidence – confront the ideology that drives it by defeating the ideas that warp so many young minds at their root, and confront the issues of identity that sustain it by standing for a much broader and generous vision of programmers in our servers.
11:36:26 <crystal-cola> Now, none of this will be easy. We will need stamina, patience and SICP, and it won’t happen at all if we act alone. This ideology crosses not just our continent but all continents, and we are all in this together. At stake are not just algorithms, it is our way of expressing algorithms. That is why this is a challenge we cannot avoid; it is one we must rise to and overcome. Thank you.
11:44:33 <crystal-cola> elliott: Une société qui s’écroule, une économie qui régresse, des appels à toujours plus de contrôles politiques pour juguler ce déclin, la situation actuelle a un goût de déjà-vu. Bien sûr on pense à la crise 1929. Mais c’est en fait à un livre - et désormais un film - qu’il est fait référence ici. Il s’agit d’Atlas Shrugged (la révolte d'Atlas) de la philosophe russo-américaine Ayn Rand, publié en 1957. Ce
11:44:47 <elliott> crystal-cola: yeah, I can't read French and I don't give a shit about Ayn Rand.
11:52:58 <crystal-cola> Gauss shaves both himself and Bertrand Russell.
11:53:48 <elliott> crystal-cola: are you a markov chain bot?
11:54:34 <crystal-cola> Gauss can trisect an angle with a straightedge and compass.
11:55:37 <Vorpal> is this like Chuck Norris but with Gauss and math?
11:57:38 <crystal-cola> A Malament–Hogarth (M-H) spacetime, named after David B. Malament and Mark Hogarth, is a relativistic spacetime that possesses the following property: there exists a worldline λ and an event p such that all events along λ are a finite interval in the past of p, but the proper time along λ is infinite
11:57:51 <crystal-cola> The significance of M-H spacetimes is that they allow for the implementation of certain non-Turing computable tasks (hypercomputation). The idea is for an observer at some event in p's past to set a computer (Turing machine) to work on some task and then have the Turing machine travel on λ, computing for all eternity. Since λ lies in p's past, the Turing machine can signal (a solution) to p at any stage of this never-ending task. Meanwhi
11:57:58 <crystal-cola> The set-up can be used to decide the halting problem
11:58:07 <elliott> pretty sure it's a markov bot guys
11:59:28 <quintopia> and where is j-invariant? ANSWER QUESTIONS FOR US J-INVARIANT
12:01:57 <crystal-cola> I wonder if you guys are being boring on purpose to make me go away
12:02:49 <elliott> yes. it's a vendetta and a conspiracy.
12:03:07 <elliott> are we /usually/ interesting?
12:03:28 <crystal-cola> idk I was trying to raise some topic for discussion
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12:06:04 <elliott> crystal-cola: with... French about Ayn Rand?
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12:16:10 <elliott> that hoover ain't so phantagmotirlca
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13:12:41 <HackEgo> 38) <ehird> is there a problem with it being carbonized :D <augur> yes: carbonized coffee bean is known more commonly as "charcoal"
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13:16:31 <HackEgo> 369) <elliott> <Yahweasel> <Vorpal> that one doesn't make a lot of sense outside context. Unless it is supposed to be a rather lame joke about STD as in HIV, and so on // HELLO WELCOME TO QUOTE DATABASES 101
13:16:32 <HackEgo> 326) <oklopol> okay see in my head it went, you send from your other number smth like "i'd certainly like to see you in those pink panties again" and she's like "WHAT?!? Sgeo took a pic?!?!?! that FUCKING PIG"
13:16:33 <HackEgo> 275) <nddrylliog> are you always careful to have a small enough margin so that it can't contain the proof? <oklofok> nddrylliog: i usually use latex, and make sure my hd is almost full
13:16:34 <HackEgo> 196) <fizzie> (I've just been playing with myself.)
13:16:35 <HackEgo> 62) <Madelon> yay fire! * Madelon combusts spontaneously.
13:16:56 <HackEgo> 33) <ehird> pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. <fungebob> ehird: consider low-gravity porn <ehird> fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced.
13:16:57 <HackEgo> 129) * augur rubs alise's bum [...] <augur> what? she said square ped <augur> :|
13:16:57 <HackEgo> 248) "Every physicist wants to violate Einstein, but thus far the great man has remained pretty chaste." --Kode Vicious
13:16:59 <HackEgo> 30) <Deewiant> ehird: There is no h in "honour"
13:16:59 <HackEgo> 192) <pikhq> Vorpal: YOU ARE AMERICAN
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13:37:09 <oklopol> i have decided to play minecraft today.
13:37:45 <oklopol> i'll just let that sink in for a while.
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14:28:18 <oerjan> <Vorpal> `addquote <elliott> would that pesky phantom hoover return * Phantom_Hoover (~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486) has joined #esoteric
14:28:29 <oerjan> SYNCHRONICITY *MWAHAHAHA* *COUGH* *HACK*
14:28:46 <elliott> true synchronicity when your wifi goes out and then, minutes later, it's back :D
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14:35:55 <oerjan> crystal-cola: i think we may have discussed that spacetime thing before, or perhaps i saw it on reddit
14:36:08 <elliott> but have we ever discussed Ayn Rand in French
14:36:29 <oerjan> in _theory_ i know some french
14:37:24 <oerjan> ayn rand is the kind of thing i would probably not want to read _even_ if half the internet didn't claim it was crap
14:37:44 <elliott> crystal-cola: that's interesting
14:37:54 <crystal-cola> the reason people say ayn rand is so rubbish is because they are scared of her ideas taking hold
14:38:20 <oklopol> stop talking about famous bisexuals, no one gives a fuck
14:38:26 <elliott> oklopol: [asterisk]JOHN GALT lol lol llol
14:38:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you're on ignore.
14:38:50 <oklopol> first some fucking bipolar bisexual from a tv show and then a dead bisexual from a french time travel comedy
14:38:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Although you're probably ignoring me, but I won't return the favour because your weirdness is quite entertaining in a strange way.
14:39:04 * Sgeo__ wants to play Portal 2 Coop
14:39:07 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: ok i _am_ sorry i mentioned ayn rand. not for that spacetime thing, though.
14:39:20 <elliott> technically i brought up ayn rand
14:39:22 <oklopol> hi crystal-cola, are you a famous bisexual?
14:39:34 <elliott> oklopol: bisexuality is misogyny
14:39:38 <elliott> crystal-cola just explained this to us yesterday
14:39:44 <elliott> really, really transparent mud
14:40:01 <elliott> yes. and you really don't want to.
14:40:07 <elliott> my brain hurt for about five hours.
14:40:26 <oklopol> i never read the argument even though i asked what it was
14:40:32 <Sgeo__> I was there for his ranting about something else
14:40:39 <oklopol> could one of you famous bisexuals paste it?
14:40:54 <Phantom_Hoover> FFS, Chrome, I clearly typed "co" and then pressed tab to complete to "codu.org/logs", not "youtube.com".
14:41:12 <elliott> tab doesn't work in chrome does it :)
14:41:28 <elliott> you probably tabbed to a bookmark or top site
14:41:32 <elliott> which happened to be youtube
14:41:36 <oklopol> where's my hammer, need to open beer :(
14:41:38 <Sgeo__> Sometimes, when the quick things are there, tab jumps to one of those
14:42:18 <Sgeo__> It's a Tool of the Titans
14:42:38 <oklopol> so umm, i would look for crystal-cola's thing in the logs, but the only word i remember from there is misogyny and crystal-cola had his very own spelling for the word
14:43:06 <oklopol> i recall there were two typos
14:43:11 <elliott> crystal-cola: you realise it's spelled misogyny
14:43:30 <elliott> i can't tell whether you're trolling or just stupid
14:44:09 <elliott> i think the word the is mysogenic
14:44:21 <oerjan> elliott: you might want to mention it to ais523 if you really meant for Template:Pre to be deleted
14:44:30 <elliott> oerjan: thanks for doing it for me
14:45:04 <crystal-cola> See Miller, Casey, Swift - The Handbook of Non-Sexist Language
14:46:14 <oklopol> "<crystal-cola> oklopol: Nothing is more demeaning to a women than a ``bisexual'' mans distaste and fundamental non-acceptance of her femininity"
14:47:07 <Sgeo__> 10:30:43 <crystal-cola> see here http://www.mit.edu/~thistle/v9/9.06/4bisexuality.html
14:47:41 <Sgeo__> I think that that link might run counter to crystal-cola's argument
14:47:43 <oklopol> do you think everyone should be heterosexual or something?
14:48:05 <elliott> crystal-cola: well you know, i think the word sexist is sexist
14:48:08 <elliott> i think we should spell it sexiest.
14:48:21 <oklopol> elliott: stop screwing around you famous bisexual, i'm trying to have a serious conversation
14:48:38 <elliott> oklopol: is that even possible
14:48:52 <oklopol> oh crystal-cola is j-invariant
14:49:32 <oerjan> i thought that was crystal clear
14:49:55 <oklopol> i have seen like 6 or crystal-cola's lines
14:50:05 <Sgeo__> crystal-cola, are you opposed to bisexuals?
14:50:09 <oklopol> took me that long to suspect something was up
14:50:27 <Sgeo__> Because that link doesn't seem to be opposed
14:50:40 <coppro> The word sexist is discriminatory against people who don't fall into traditional gender categorizations
14:50:49 <coppro> We should all adopt 'genderist'
14:50:53 <elliott> coppro: the word sexiest isn't
14:51:10 <oklopol> crystal-cola: so if i enjoy happy time with both men and women, i don't accept the feminity of women?
14:51:10 <coppro> elliott: YES IT IS NOW SHUT UP OKAY
14:51:34 <Sgeo__> I'm still trying to figure out why e linked to something e disagrees with
14:53:10 <oklopol> http://www.theneworder.org/hitler_phenom/hitler_was_right.html
14:53:48 * elliott tries to find a website arguing that rape is awesome
14:54:13 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
14:54:24 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*quantum@unaffiliated/j-invariant.
14:54:24 -!- oerjan has kicked crystal-cola Obviously trolling.
14:54:28 <oklopol> oerjan: I'M SORRY I WAS TRYING TO BE FUNNY :(((
14:54:36 <elliott> oerjan: prepare to be flooded with "unban me"
14:54:48 <oklopol> oerjan: i don't really believe on most of history either
14:54:55 <elliott> yeah but you do it adorabnly.
14:55:15 <Sgeo__> Fucking words, how do they work/
14:56:16 <oklopol> elliott: i asked my uncle and apparently it's "adorably"
14:57:05 <oklopol> why won't crystal-cola answer me
14:57:21 <oklopol> bitches be bitches i guess :((
14:58:01 <oklopol> hey there's a finnish song that is essentially that hitler was right page in finnish
14:58:02 <elliott> Yes, Adolf Hitler did die. But the good news is that He is not dead. He has been reborn—resurrected and transfigured.
14:58:58 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yA06tz1IIRM
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14:59:54 <crystal-cola> im wondering if hoover is gonna stop being a dick?
15:00:06 <elliott> hoover isn't being a dick.
15:00:13 * copumpkin chokes and dies from crystal-cola's sharp edges slicing up his throat
15:00:18 <elliott> or at least not enough of a dick to get past the minimum skin-thickness of irc
15:01:16 <crystal-cola> shouldn't have brought it up, ill just put him back on ignore and leave it
15:01:33 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
15:01:39 <crystal-cola> you said that being a dick to me is not being a dick
15:01:46 <elliott> i denied anyone was being a dick to you.
15:02:09 <Gregor> I ♥ #esoteric SO HARD :P
15:02:09 <copumpkin> no more dicks, just peace and love :) :) :)
15:02:11 <oklopol> it's not what you said, it's the way you said it
15:02:24 <oklopol> crystal-cola: seriously, please answer
15:02:25 <Gregor> copumpkin: How can we have peace and love with no dicks? :P
15:02:44 <crystal-cola> since apparently you guys don't like me claiming obviously false and absurd claims
15:02:55 <oklopol> could you stop not trolling and just answer
15:03:27 <elliott> `addquote <crystal-cola> anyway I've stopped ``trolling'' <crystal-cola> since apparently you guys don't like me claiming obviously false and absurd claims
15:03:28 <HackEgo> 374) <crystal-cola> anyway I've stopped ``trolling'' <crystal-cola> since apparently you guys don't like me claiming obviously false and absurd claims
15:03:30 <oklopol> "<crystal-cola> oklopol: Nothing is more demeaning to a women than a ``bisexual'' mans distaste and fundamental non-acceptance of her femininity" <<< can you translate this to a language?
15:03:48 <oklopol> copumpkin: that's because you're a famous cobisexual
15:04:07 <oklopol> although bisexuality is just cobisexuality
15:04:46 <Sgeo__> crystal-cola, what is?
15:05:32 <crystal-cola> it's just a bunch of garbage some idiot came up with to try to justify a false viewpoint they were entertaining
15:06:22 <oklopol> crystal-cola: can you translate whoever that was's opinion to a language then?
15:06:32 <oklopol> i'm intrigued by sentences that make no sense to me
15:06:58 <oklopol> crystal-cola: it's a classy way to say "what does this sentence mean i don't get it"
15:08:00 <crystal-cola> you can obviously try to invent some yourself - that's the main reason people say stuff that doesn't mean anything
15:10:13 <oklopol> meaningless things scare me, communication is so fragile
15:11:08 <crystal-cola> A starting point might be to speak in abstract syntax rather than text
15:11:39 <elliott> oklopol: we09rjwerewrj0eg90esrgje0gj
15:12:07 <elliott> oklopol: iogjiodfgodjgdofjgiog
15:12:11 <elliott> oerjan: what was that old suffix
15:14:12 <oklopol> so i was thinking hey mc day and then no mc and now i have nothign
15:14:28 <oklopol> my life is meaningless atm
15:14:49 <oklopol> well fuck that shit. wait. that's actually a great idea!
15:15:02 <oklopol> like i need you famous bisexuals anyway :D
15:15:58 <elliott> well my five hundred and ten byte forth almost has a compiler...
15:16:27 <oklopol> i'm trying to characterize the CA commuting with a given bipermutive automaton
15:16:37 <elliott> machine code. it's a standard-PC-architecture boot sector.
15:16:48 <elliott> well, i use an assembler. but no dependencies in the result.
15:17:05 <oklopol> we did linear ones with a uni friend and we have a small result that applies to all
15:17:13 <elliott> i say forth, it's barely anything like forth because i don't care how semantically ridiculous i make it
15:17:43 <Gregor> elliott: TC-BOUNDED-MEMORY BLURP WELCOME TO ENGLISH
15:17:54 <oklopol> crystal-cola: permutive CA = changing any single value in the neighborhood used changes the output
15:18:03 <elliott> Gregor: Well, no, that is not TC at all :P
15:18:20 <Gregor> elliott: Yes yes and the universe has bounded matter so we DEAL WITH IT.
15:18:21 <elliott> When you're at the asm level, it's a pretty major distinction, because you pretty explicitly say "And this address is a WORD".
15:18:28 <oklopol> so if two configs differ in exactly one cell, on the nth step in the orbit they differ in the nth cells in both directions from that point
15:18:36 <elliott> Gregor: Also, you don't know that :)
15:18:43 <oklopol> erm, assuming neighborhood {0, 1}
15:18:57 <Gregor> elliott: Yes I do, I'm omniscient!
15:18:58 <oklopol> and i don't know anything about algebraic topology, except that it's apparently really really awesome
15:19:18 <crystal-cola> it seems like a good idea but the proofs are horrible
15:19:26 <crystal-cola> I think it's because the book I looked at sucks
15:19:35 <oklopol> crystal-cola: oh and here linear just means you have Z_n as the states, and the rule must compute a linear combination of what it sees in the neighborhood
15:19:38 <elliott> crystal-cola: how did that category theory go
15:19:53 <oklopol> commutation just means F(G(c)) = G(F(c)) for all configs
15:19:59 <crystal-cola> I don't know what you mean? I typed out a bunch of shit then deleted it
15:20:39 <crystal-cola> I learned about cones and direct limits though
15:20:47 <elliott> might not be useless to everyone.
15:21:16 <crystal-cola> you should put lots of old code you've written up on the web
15:21:31 <elliott> it was just the way you phrased it
15:23:03 <crystal-cola> oklopol: so there is a characterization for linear ones already?
15:23:15 <oklopol> crystal-cola: yes, proven by me and a uni friend
15:23:32 <oerjan> ouch reddit is still down
15:23:37 <oklopol> well, at least for n = prime, otherwise the rule may not be permutive
15:23:48 <oklopol> crystal-cola: they're all linear or affine (affine = linear + constant)
15:24:06 <oklopol> it's obvious that linear ones commute with linear ones
15:24:16 <oklopol> but that nothing else does needed a small trick
15:24:29 <oklopol> (essentially nothing else)
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15:25:41 <oklopol> not before we solve the affine ones at least
15:26:33 <oklopol> in the meantime i'm publishing other stuff
15:27:05 <oklopol> which is also pretty awesome, i proved the age old conjecture that NFA = FNFA which has been open for 20 years and thought about by at least 4 persons
15:28:28 <crystal-cola> Wow a complexity class that isn't mentioned on complexity zoo
15:28:50 <oklopol> oerjan: remember left sets?
15:29:24 <oklopol> i realized the other day that it's trivial to prove that there are no sparse NP-complete sets with respect to *many-to-one* reductions
15:29:31 <oklopol> i'd love to prove this at some point
15:29:39 <oklopol> oerjan: i'm not sure i've even mentioned them
15:30:21 <oklopol> crystal-cola: FNFA is what i call the class of picture languages accepted by nondeterministic finite state automata that walk on the cells of given pictures, and are allowed to exit their domain
15:30:25 <oklopol> NFA the same but not allowed
15:31:08 <oklopol> oerjan: okay, well in any case i'm sure my explanation was rather unclear last time
15:31:14 <oklopol> crystal-cola: i don't have a short proof
15:31:30 <oklopol> but i have two not that long proofs
15:31:42 <oklopol> i can link the article if and when i get it published
15:34:21 <crystal-cola> it must feel good proving a theorem nobody proved before
15:35:03 <oklopol> it probably would if a large amount of people had actually tried and failed
15:35:11 <oklopol> i've just picked up random stuff from age old articles
15:35:24 <oklopol> (and the handbook of formal languages)
15:35:40 <oklopol> (but who the fuck has read the last book anyway)
15:36:08 <crystal-cola> that reminds me ... I wonder if Knuths new book is good
15:38:15 <oklopol> they are so goddamn scary :(
15:38:34 <oklopol> i can't do anything when i hear them, i just stay still and pee my pants
15:44:09 <oklopol> you know i could never do that
15:45:45 <oklopol> can monsters spawn on a platform of size 1 :\
15:45:55 <oklopol> because i'm not going down...
15:46:03 <oklopol> i don't like the sound of that theory
15:46:12 <elliott> oklopol: btw an awesome thing is:
15:46:28 <elliott> no ceiling or anything needed
15:47:10 <oklopol> i'm going to build a giant monument shaped like a famous bisexual
15:47:51 <oklopol> see i suppose i found a dungeon because suddenly i started hearing scary during the day
15:48:02 <oklopol> and i couldn't continue looking for coal
15:48:13 <oklopol> because i had to keep peeing myself
15:48:15 <elliott> oklopol: if it's just whooshy noises and sirens and shit
15:48:19 <elliott> there's dark within a few blocks of you
15:48:31 <elliott> if you actually hear HRRRRNG or whatever, that's monsters.
15:48:35 <elliott> oklopol: well it could jsut be darkness
15:48:38 <elliott> oklopol: was there WHOOSH osunds too?
15:48:51 <oklopol> well there was monster sounds, that's all i know
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15:49:11 <oklopol> OH SHIT WHAT IF THEY SHOOT ARROWS
15:49:27 <oerjan> every time you miss a pun, a monster spawns
15:50:51 <oklopol> did i miss a pun? i don't want no monsters :\
15:51:05 <oklopol> crystal-cola: thank you for telling me
15:51:14 <oklopol> pants were getting a bit too dry
15:51:14 <crystal-cola> oklopol: listen if you get hit by arrows you can die
15:51:23 <oerjan> oklopol: that's what the WHOOSH sounds are, duh
15:52:11 <oklopol> is there a chance of lightning nowadays?
15:52:32 <oklopol> if it was raining irl, i'd be outside, running naked
15:52:39 <crystal-cola> I was upset when they stopped wood from burning infinitely
15:52:49 <crystal-cola> because that was a great party zone for free bacon
15:52:50 <oerjan> i saw some mention that there would be thunderstorms added to mc
15:53:18 <oklopol> oerjan is a theoretical minecraftologician
15:53:38 <oerjan> well it was either here, or in an r/all title
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15:55:15 <oklopol> what's wrong with acheivement get?
15:55:26 <oklopol> everyone loves achievements!
15:56:17 <oklopol> this thing is on hard but i'm not seeing any monsters
15:59:28 <oklopol> oerjan: so let L be in NP. then there's A in P and polynomial p such that x in L iff exists w in \Sigma^p(|x|) such that (x, w) in A
16:00:13 <oklopol> this is a theorem by D. F. Inition
16:01:39 <oklopol> anyhow we now define the left set as Left(L, A, p) = {(x, y) | y \in \Sigma^p(|x|) and exists w such that y <= w, (x, w) in A}
16:01:58 <oklopol> so take A and close the right sides by lexicographic smallerness
16:02:44 <oklopol> this is a theorem by O. Bivious
16:04:06 <oklopol> i'm just giving you some definitions now so you'll have an easier time following later on
16:07:56 <oklopol> listen, we'll make a deal. you listen to this, and you can teach me whatever you want later on
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16:13:59 <elliott> seosoeosoeoseoseosoeoseose
16:14:07 <oklopol> well look who came crawling back
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16:21:24 <ais523> the opposite of retarded opengl?
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16:22:17 <elliott> oklopol: it makes the taps into the computer phones.
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16:25:06 <elliott> <Holier_than_thou> anyone else surprised at how little there is to do on the internet beside reddit?
16:25:52 <oerjan> it certainly feels that way
16:26:02 <elliott> crystal-cola: internet is good.
16:26:17 <crystal-cola> now it's all just "download transformes II and mean girls" holywood movies
16:27:24 <oklopol> i don't really know what reddit is except that sometimes people link things through reddit, but the internet doesn't really have much to offer
16:27:47 <elliott> ais523: can you delete template:pre, it's angering the locals
16:27:50 <oklopol> well yeah but i could just be out with my other awesome friends
16:27:54 <crystal-cola> why isn't there a website (or whatever) for people that want to learn stuff?
16:28:10 <oerjan> elliott: YMT "Natives" HTH
16:28:16 <crystal-cola> if I want to learn quantum mechanics (for example) why can't I find a group of people that also want to? Using the internet
16:28:29 <oklopol> oerjan: oh great you're back! wanna learn more?
16:28:34 <ais523> crystal-cola: Usenet was a bit like that, before it was ruined
16:28:38 <elliott> crystal-cola: you almost certainly can on irc
16:28:41 <Phantom_Hoover> crystal-cola, obviously because you don't actually want to, and instead want to bitch about it.
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16:43:04 <?unknown?> [freenode-info] help freenode weed out clonebots -- please register your IRC nick and auto-identify: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
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16:44:38 <elliott> WHAT HAPPENED TO OUR WIREBY FLIES
16:45:33 * oerjan swats FireFly for obviously being responsible -----###
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16:46:56 <elliott> Gregor: where did the wire
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16:48:34 <crystal-cola> this guy is asking how to prove a theorem that he doesn't even know how to state
16:50:13 <oklopol> so anyhow what we do is we do a binary search to find, given x, the lexicographically maximal witness, that is, the lexicographically biggest w such that (x, w) in A
16:51:12 <oklopol> we keep track of a set of disjoint intervals of strings, starting with {[0^p(|x|), 1^p(|x|)]}, such that if x is in L, then the biggest witness is in one of those intervals
16:51:53 <oklopol> oerjan: is it okay if i do it like this, in the course of the following 7 weeks?
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16:56:45 <Gregor> The real question is, wtf was glogbackup doing?
17:00:32 <oklopol> have they added snakes or do spiders make a snake noise
17:02:06 <oklopol> what is it then? and what monster plays the xylophone?
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17:03:12 * oerjan imagines a skeleton monster might do that
17:04:33 <elliott> oklopol: xylophone is skeleton, yeah
17:04:41 <elliott> the snake sound probably is the spider slurp.
17:05:03 <oklopol> but there's also the rattling of chains, i thought that might be a skeleton
17:07:47 <oklopol> sooooo i found the dungeon i guess
17:07:56 <elliott> oklopol: keep the spawner maybe
17:08:00 <elliott> they can be used to make mob harvesters
17:08:11 <elliott> if you just surround it with shit on all sides nothing will spawn and you can loot the chest
17:09:01 <oklopol> i have about one heart left
17:09:10 <oklopol> should prolly wait till morning and hunt a bit
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17:20:39 <oklopol> argh morning came and creeper stayed
17:22:05 <oklopol> usually only if you're near them in my experience
17:22:16 <oklopol> oh right, i've never played with hard
17:23:26 <elliott> oklopol: creepers stay no matter what
17:23:31 <elliott> if they're really far away
17:23:43 <elliott> but no, creepers never die :P
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17:23:59 <oklopol> well both of the creepers disappeared now and i never went that far from them
17:24:53 <oklopol> why would a creeper do such a creepy thing
17:26:30 <oklopol> elliott: remember those creepers that disappeared?
17:27:23 <oklopol> let's just say AAAAAAAAAAAARGRHGHRARG
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17:30:56 <oklopol> ph: stop being such a famous bisexual
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17:32:41 <elliott> you stopped being a famous bisexual
17:33:23 <elliott> oklopol: if this was the server we'd come and give you armour and protect you
17:33:26 <elliott> but it isn't so hahahahahah die
17:33:51 <oklopol> holy shit, i can't do shit to that thing
17:33:57 <elliott> oklopol: do you have a: sord
17:34:12 <elliott> go kill some pigs or some iron
17:34:18 <elliott> and fashion it into iron corpse armor
17:34:31 <oklopol> the thing is the guy is in water
17:34:38 <oklopol> maybe it's not a dungeon after all
17:35:08 <oklopol> i... lasted about a second down there
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17:35:46 <oklopol> and i respawn during the night and a creeper blows up in front of me within 5 seconds
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17:37:21 <oklopol> this game is kind of hard :D
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17:38:18 <elliott> oklopol: if you get a bed (make sure it has two blocks before the outside world, i.e. not right against your one-thick wall)
17:38:22 <elliott> oklopol: then if you get in at the start of a night
17:38:35 <elliott> cheating? absolutely, but there's still monsters underground
17:42:17 <oklopol> hahaaa that was fun, survived at least a minute, an arrow going past every 2 seconds :D
17:42:31 <oklopol> then i dropped into a hole, couldn't see anything
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17:56:02 <oklopol> so i finally found back and jumped in the dungeon, and there were no monsters. so i was alone with a monster spawner and couldn't get back up
17:58:01 <oklopol> i also had no dirt or anything because i didn't know there really was a monster spawner and didn't want to lose anything if i die
17:59:24 <elliott> lose all that precious dirt
17:59:39 <elliott> you realise you can get stuff back for about five minutes
18:00:08 <oklopol> ah yeah jump back in the monster spawner hole
18:03:56 <ais523> Vorpal: how would you do an "are you sure? yes/no" prompt in bash?
18:06:24 <elliott> echo -n "Are you sure? "; read answer; if [ "[dollar]answer" [excl.]= "y" ]; then echo nm; exit; fi; ...
18:06:34 <elliott> You might want to handle Y and yes and Yes too :P
18:09:18 <ais523> I came up with read -n1 -p"Are you sure? (y/n) " && echo && test x$REPLY = xy || exit
18:09:58 <oklopol> crystal-cola: i idled there for a few days, earlier, and there was some monologue by augur about some CT stuff
18:10:07 <Vorpal> ais523, least known keyword of bash
18:10:34 <elliott> have you ever heard of double quotes?
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18:10:57 <ais523> elliott: it's standard
18:10:58 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Bone_Meal
18:11:02 <ais523> because test is confused by empty arguments
18:11:04 <elliott> it's standard if this is the 90s
18:11:46 <elliott> ais523: /especially/ not if this is bash-specific
18:12:02 <Vorpal> ais523, did you try select?
18:12:03 <elliott> (also, why not use [ ... ] instead?)
18:12:24 <Vorpal> <ais523> because test is confused by empty arguments <-- good reason to use [[ ]] yes
18:12:26 <ais523> I find test easier to read
18:12:30 <elliott> oklopol: also As of Beta 1.4, bones are used to tame wild wolves. More than one bone will need to be used on the wolf in most cases. Bone Meal cannot be used to tame wolves.
18:12:43 <Vorpal> elliott, it is unless you quote them
18:12:44 <elliott> show me a bash version where, with proper quoting, test fails on empty arguments
18:12:51 <elliott> they're not empty arguments
18:12:59 <elliott> does nobody _understand_ how the shell works?
18:13:06 <elliott> that's an argument against the shell's syntax, not test
18:14:30 <crystal-cola> im watching this guys videos about how angles and stuff are wrong
18:14:51 <crystal-cola> http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~norman/views2.htm
18:15:27 <elliott> do you ever listen to people who say things are right
18:16:09 <elliott> "The `Axioms' are first of all unintelligible unless you are already a trained mathematician."
18:16:16 <elliott> yep, that's relevant to the foundation of formalised mathematics, absolutely
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18:17:13 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, erm, the attitude that "deduction from axioms is all that is necessary" is not a very constructive one.
18:17:28 <crystal-cola> every does math based on axioms, or at least they think they are doing so
18:17:30 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: when did i say that
18:17:57 <elliott> crystal-cola: let me summarise that article for you
18:18:12 <elliott> "this is a bit unintuitive at first glance, because i said so. i bet you don't understand it. therefore it's wrong"
18:20:09 <crystal-cola> you can basically do trigonometry without calculus
18:20:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I like the way he says "the axiom of infinity is clearly rubbish, it doesn't define what an infinite set is" when the reason it doesn't do that is because he stripped out the definition.
18:21:28 <crystal-cola> I mean normal things like angles and trigonometry can only be rigorously done in terms of calculus
18:21:41 <crystal-cola> but you usally learn these things before learning enough calculus to justify them
18:22:00 <crystal-cola> so if you are going to do trigonometry at all why do it in that way? Since there is an easier way
18:22:12 <crystal-cola> one that isn't founded on more advanced mathematics
18:22:21 <elliott> you mean: one that isn't founded on anything formal at all.
18:22:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't think crystal-cola understands how rigour works.
18:23:42 <oklopol> "<crystal-cola> you can basically do trigonometry without calculus" <<< because it's no fun
18:24:22 <oklopol> "<Phantom_Hoover> ...they can?" <<< what?
18:24:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I didn't know that, but I suppose it makes a bit of sense.
18:24:58 <oklopol> crystal-cola: another difference is you're not doing math, eventually you might disagree with someone.
18:25:05 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, erm, what is it with you and needing everything to be completely rigorous?
18:25:47 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: er, because not being rigorous is not fun?
18:26:03 <copumpkin> real ultimate rigor comes in #agda
18:26:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm... not sure that's at all universal among mathematicians.
18:26:42 <copumpkin> I like automatinc/abstracting over tedium
18:26:44 <oklopol> you can love whatever you want
18:26:53 <oklopol> crystal-cola: mean by what?
18:26:56 <crystal-cola> 19:24 < oklopol> crystal-cola: another difference is you're not doing math, eventually you might disagree with someone.
18:27:13 <oklopol> ah, well that's the reason we do math based on axioms: people cannot disagree
18:27:30 <crystal-cola> people can disagree... if at least one of them is wrong
18:27:39 <oklopol> well i've never ever seen that happen
18:27:52 <elliott> remember when crystal-cola said the trolling was over :D
18:27:58 <oklopol> copumpkin: you can reject my axioms all you want, i'm not claiming they are correct
18:28:04 <elliott> copumpkin: i'm so ultrafinitist I don't even believe in two
18:28:08 <elliott> I am therefore a solipsist
18:28:10 <copumpkin> oklopol: yeah, but I can try to make you feel bad for wasting your life!
18:28:18 <elliott> and all my sentences, of which there is only one, are composed out of one word with one letter
18:28:36 <oklopol> for the purpose of this kind of arguments, a mathematician should be a formalist
18:29:01 <crystal-cola> elliott: why do you always talk about finitism?
18:29:08 <elliott> * copumpkin is an ultrahyperfinitist
18:29:11 <elliott> copumpkin is the one that brought it up
18:29:32 <elliott> i see the ban taught you nothing
18:29:46 * copumpkin is an avid follower of norman wildberger
18:30:19 <oklopol> crystal-cola: in any case that's not my actual argument against axiom-free geometry, my argument is i don't get anything out of it, because i don't know what we're talking about.
18:30:30 <crystal-cola> elliott: You talk about finitism all the time, I wonder why because you're obviously not actually a finitist
18:30:37 <elliott> crystal-cola: no, I do not
18:30:39 <crystal-cola> elliott: Basically you're trolling. Why do you keep doing it?
18:30:54 <elliott> shame oerjan isn't around right now.
18:31:05 <oklopol> well, i get something out of it
18:31:23 <crystal-cola> 14:19:52 <elliott> I'm starting the Order of Ultrafinitist Programmers, we code exclusively in lookup tables
18:31:24 <oklopol> but it doesn't have that taste of exciting sexiness that set theory based math has
18:31:32 <ais523> oklopol: in axiom-free geometry, wouldn't everything be false?
18:31:37 <ais523> it seems a little pointless and degeneraet
18:31:38 <elliott> crystal-cola: please just shut up.
18:31:42 <ais523> or am I missing the point?
18:31:57 <oklopol> ais523: i assume axiom-free geometry means doing geometry like kids do it
18:32:17 <ais523> but kids have lots of axioms, much more than just four or five
18:32:28 <ais523> everything they know is treated like an axiom, pretty much
18:32:34 <crystal-cola> elliott: People are having a serious discussion about metamathematics. Stop telling me off for not doing anything wrong and trolling about finitism and just generally being an ass.
18:34:56 <elliott> crystal-cola: there is no serious discussion, there is just you being a dick and trolling again, whether intentionally or not
18:35:02 <oklopol> ais523: but the point is axiomatizing geometry directly is really tedious, and it was not long ago that they discovered that a crucial axiom (which had been used tons of times) was missing from the usual axiom set; and doing it the calculus way, talking about R^n, requires a lot of (")advanced(") math
18:35:17 <oklopol> and it's something pretty much everyone agrees with
18:35:31 <oklopol> without any sort of explicit axioms
18:35:51 <ais523> oklopol: what axiom was that?
18:36:25 <oklopol> ais523: i don't recall, it was mentioned in our geometry course (the least formal course we have in the whole university)
18:36:44 <elliott> I guess it works when you /ignore everyone who disagrees, though
18:36:52 <oklopol> something pretty simple like if you have a point and a line, there's a closest point on the line or something
18:37:06 <elliott> crystal-cola: <Phantom_Hoover> crystal-cola, shut up.
18:37:29 <elliott> how long until you're ignoring three fourths of the channel again
18:37:32 <oklopol> maybe i'll see if i can find it
18:39:01 <ais523> wow, this system is so bizarrely broken that /etc/mtab was replaced by NetHack's helpfile
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18:47:07 <oklopol> oerjan: for your logreading pleasure: a single step of the algorithm splits all the intervals in two, which means that in a polynomial amount of steps w.r.t. |x| (because strings are of length p(|x|)), we have that every interval is of size 1. of course, i haven't really told you why we're writing an algorithm, maybe i'll do that later.
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18:52:48 <oklopol> "Sometime in their second or third year, a dramatic change happens in the training of aspiring pure mathematicians. They start being introduced to the idea of rigorous thinking and proofs, and gradually become aware that they are not at the peak of intellectual achievement, but just at the foothills of a very onerous climb."
18:53:57 <crystal-cola> I never got introduced to anything rigorous in my math courses
18:54:19 <crystal-cola> which is fine, I am able to supply my own rigor
18:55:28 <oklopol> Do you suppose the curriculum at this point has time or inclination to return to the material they learnt in public school and high school, and finally organize it properly? When we start to get really picky about logical correctness, doesn't it make sense to go back and ensure that all those subjects that up to now have only been taught in a loose and cavalier fashion get a proper rigorous treatment?
18:55:31 <oklopol> Isn't this the appropriate time to finally learn what a number in fact is, why exactly the laws of arithmetic hold, what the correct definitions of a line and a circle are, what we mean by a vector, a function, an area and all the rest? You might think so, but there are two very good reasons why this is nowhere done.
18:55:47 <oklopol> they don't teach people what functions actually are? :D
18:55:58 <oklopol> i think this guy's problem is he went to a zoo instead of a university
18:56:00 <crystal-cola> oklopol: Nobody ever taught me what a function was
18:56:22 <crystal-cola> oklopol: I think you are very lucky to have been taught things properly - I am a sample of 1 but I don't think it's normal
18:56:44 <oklopol> a function from X to Y is a subset S of XxY such that for all x, there is exactly one y such that (x, y) is in S, this is one of the first sentences in every book and lecture notes
18:56:58 <ais523> oklopol: I don't think I've been formally taught what functions are either
18:57:08 <ais523> but I picked it up quite quickly (it helps that my father knew the actual definition)
18:57:23 <ais523> and in a computer science department, if you're missing something that basic you ask someone and learn it very quickly
18:57:57 <oklopol> well i haven't seen a more tedious definition than that, that is, most definitions are based on set&tuple theory instead of set theory
19:00:18 <oklopol> "The first reason is that even the professors mostly don't know! They too have gone through a similar indoctrination, and never had to prove that multiplication is associative"
19:00:38 <tswett> I only had my first real math class this year.
19:01:46 <oklopol> "Ask them just what a fraction is, or how to properly define an angle, or whether a polynomial is really a function or not, and see what kind of non-uniform rambling emerges!"
19:02:03 <crystal-cola> someone disagreed with me in #haskell and I didn't get banned
19:02:05 <oklopol> "whether a polynomial is really a function or not"
19:02:39 <oklopol> this stuff is explained in painstaking detail in like 4 courses here
19:03:16 <crystal-cola> oklopol: yeah seriously I think you just go to an exceptionally good university
19:03:33 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: the problem is they can be both.
19:04:00 <oklopol> when you have say a ring you can define a formal polynomial ring
19:04:13 <oklopol> but then obviously you can also associate a function to each of those polynomials
19:05:01 <ais523> elliott: do you have any idea how to remount / readonly on a system while it's running?
19:05:10 <elliott> ais523: can't you remount /?
19:05:14 <elliott> mount -o ro,remount / or whatever
19:05:16 <ais523> this is in a throwaway VM, so it doesn't matter if it screws up
19:05:20 <ais523> I tried that, it said "/ is busy"
19:05:25 <ais523> which was pretty inevitable, really
19:05:55 <oklopol> crystal-cola: from what i understand we're better than average, but we don't even get in the top 100.
19:06:00 <elliott> I see no force options in mount(one)
19:06:14 <elliott> Causes everything to be done except for the actual system call; if it's not obvious, this ``fakes'' mounting the filesystem. This option is useful in conjunc‐
19:06:14 <elliott> tion with the -v flag to determine what the mount command is trying to do. It can also be used to add entries for devices that were mounted earlier with the -n
19:06:14 <elliott> option. The -f option checks for existing record in /etc/mtab and fails when the record already exists (with regular non-fake mount, this check is done by ker‐
19:06:15 <ais523> ah, that's not a force option at all
19:06:42 <ais523> even more amusingly, it seemed to have worked
19:06:43 <crystal-cola> if you're smart you'll probably prove good theorems no matter what
19:08:56 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: sorry, can't please everyone
19:09:30 <elliott> oklopol: FUCKING CREEPER AMBUSHED ME FROM ABOVE
19:09:45 <oklopol> must've been one famous bisexual
19:09:47 <ais523> hmm, only when you work inside someone else's screen(1) do you realise how much you use control-a for start-of-line
19:11:11 <oklopol> 'an infinite set is a collection of mathematical objects which isn't finite' xD
19:11:18 <oklopol> what the fuck kind of definition is that :D
19:12:21 <elliott> an infinite set is a set which is infinite
19:12:40 <Sgeo__> I seem to like the taste of mouthwash </random>
19:12:50 <oklopol> but yeah, that's a good definition right there
19:12:59 <elliott> oklopol: and a finite set is one without an infinite number of elements
19:13:05 <ais523> well, finite is probably easier to define than infinite, without circularity
19:13:15 <ais523> a set is finite if it has no elements, or one more element than some finite set
19:13:24 <Gregor> <GregorR> Have you looked at my unicode identifiers function by the way? I'm pretty proud of its sheer degree of horror :P
19:13:25 <Gregor> <dherman> no, lemme pull it up now
19:13:25 <Gregor> <dherman> you are insane
19:13:37 <elliott> Gregor: It's not _that_ much of a horrible hack :P
19:13:37 <oklopol> ais523: infinite sets are usually defined as sets containing a proper subset for which there is a bijection with the original set
19:13:50 <ais523> oklopol: does that work even without the axiom of choice?
19:13:52 <Gregor> elliott: Later: <dherman> that's actually just insane enough to feel right at home in Narcissus ;)
19:13:55 <elliott> Gregor: In a language with an eval that took an AST rather than a string, it might even elegant :P
19:14:10 <crystal-cola> that definition of infinite set works without choice
19:14:13 <oklopol> ais523: the definition certainly works
19:14:28 <Gregor> elliott: Uhh, in a language with an eval that took an AST instead of a string, it wouldn't work.
19:14:29 <ais523> oklopol: I mean, it might mark some infinite sets as not infinite
19:14:37 <ais523> due to the inability to chose an arbitrary such subset
19:14:39 <Gregor> elliott: Unless it did identifier validation over the AST for no real reason.
19:14:46 <elliott> Gregor: Sure it would, if you can construct an identifier node from a string.
19:14:51 <elliott> In fact, you'd just do that X-D
19:14:55 <oklopol> you have an axiom that gives you one element, and you have an axiom that lets you drop everything except that
19:15:02 <elliott> oklopol: Infinite sets are those which have at least as many elements as the natural numbers. The natural numbers are defined as the smallest infinite set.
19:15:34 <oklopol> but about this stuff, the prof is certainly right in my case.
19:15:48 <oklopol> which is good for him because it's his main point
19:15:56 <crystal-cola> anyway axiom-free mathematics is to just brush aside since axiomatization is "solved". Look at Eulers papers
19:18:29 <oklopol> "<elliott> oklopol: Infinite sets are those which have at least as many elements as the natural numbers. The natural numbers are defined as the smallest infinite set." <<< who says there's nothing between |N| and the finite sets though? :)
19:18:47 <oklopol> say a subset of N that's not finite but not in bijection with N either
19:18:48 <elliott> oklopol: nobody. that's the magic of mathematics.
19:19:05 <elliott> oklopol: why CONSTRAIN yourself?
19:20:00 <oklopol> it's not very hard to prove with the tools i have, but the tools i have are not what are usually taken as the axioms
19:20:25 <oklopol> crystal-cola: in what sense?
19:20:27 <crystal-cola> consider permutations of N, is a subset of N just the first n elements of a permutation?
19:20:54 <oklopol> that's exactly the finite sets
19:21:25 <elliott> all subsets of N are finite, because they only have SOME of its elements, and N is the smallest infinite set
19:21:35 <crystal-cola> well even in the finite case it's awkward becuase of "wild" permutations
19:22:36 <oklopol> no single permutation is all that wild
19:22:51 <oklopol> 1 is bijected to some n_1, 2 is bijected to some n_2...
19:23:16 <crystal-cola> http://qchu.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/i-dont-trust-uncountable-sets/
19:27:17 <crystal-cola> I guess one of the difficulties is, let S be a subset of N then consider the obvious bijection 1 -> first element of S, 2 -> second element, ...
19:27:32 <crystal-cola> almost all infinite sets S lead to functions that grow so fast...
19:28:16 <crystal-cola> fast growing functions are a bitch, ever studied logic?
19:28:29 <ais523> <oklopol> you have an axiom that gives you one element <--- ah, that's the axiom I was missing
19:28:33 <ais523> I don't know sets from the axioms
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19:28:35 <elliott> oklopol: exponentiation ain't total don'tchaknow
19:28:44 <oklopol> not much, what's bitchy about fast growing functions?
19:29:09 <crystal-cola> the rate of growth of a function is the sort of thing you need stronger and stronger axioms to deal tih
19:29:12 <oklopol> what's difficult about them, you don't need to do anything about them
19:29:43 <oklopol> you just define a subset Y of X as a set such that y \in Y implies y \in X, and see what happens
19:29:43 <crystal-cola> like you can't prove ackermann terminates in weak logics.. you need something extra
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19:29:52 <crystal-cola> and the same phenomenon happens all the time throughout
19:30:12 <oklopol> crystal-cola: and what does that have to do with anything? slow-growing functions can be bitches in the exact same sense.
19:30:27 <oklopol> in the sense that problems about them can be hard to solve
19:30:50 <crystal-cola> I'm not saying I can prove false with this, I know it all works out fine in ZFC
19:32:33 <oklopol> and this is just great, he lists the zermelo-fraenkel axioms without giving the predicate and propositional logic axioms, and then says "look at these silly axioms referring to meaningless things"
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19:33:56 <oklopol> also in what sense are those axioms complicated
19:34:23 <crystal-cola> and their proof theoretic strength is also quite high
19:34:40 <oklopol> "Every nonempty set has a minimal element, that is one which does not contain another in the set." is the only thing that i find unintuitive apart from the stuff that's undefined, and that's a pretty useless axiom anyway
19:34:57 <oklopol> crystal-cola: no one's claiming they're independent
19:35:15 <oklopol> what is being claimed is that they are hard to understand / unintelligible
19:36:16 <crystal-cola> I don't know about others, I wouldn't claim everyone else finds them hard but I wouldn't be surprised
19:36:23 <crystal-cola> people have trouble learning the axioms of group theory...
19:37:48 <ais523> oklopol: the initial/final stuff is even more confusing when it comes to categories
19:38:29 <oklopol> initial = exactly one arrow from, per object; final = exactly one arrow to, per object
19:38:31 <ais523> and I'm not entirely convinced your axiom is correct either
19:38:52 <ais523> the minimal element one
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19:38:59 <oklopol> that's the axiom of foundation
19:39:12 <oklopol> it's correct in the sense that it's in the ZFC axiom set
19:39:17 <oklopol> but it's a pretty useless axiom
19:39:27 <oklopol> afaik, you don't need it for... well, anything
19:39:28 <impomatic> Does anyone want to tell me how crap my C code is? http://twitcode.org/show/265/easter-sunday
19:40:27 <Vorpal> I loath this time of the year.
19:41:41 <impomatic> Thanks crystal-cola :-) Apart from that have I done anything stupid?
19:41:53 <Vorpal> impomatic, int main(void) would work too
19:42:07 <Vorpal> impomatic, is this C99 or C89?
19:42:14 <elliott> impomatic: crystal-cola is wrong
19:42:17 <elliott> int main() is perfectly acceptable
19:42:20 <crystal-cola> impomatic: I think you need to check if scanf worked
19:42:31 <Vorpal> if it is C99, you can actually skip returning a value at the end of main
19:42:32 <elliott> return EXIT_SUCCESS; is pointless verbosity
19:42:35 <elliott> EXIT_SUCCESS is defined to be 0
19:43:01 <Vorpal> though I tend to leave it in, even in C99
19:43:08 <elliott> impomatic: But i suggest you take the year as a command-line argument, not on stdin.
19:43:12 <impomatic> I only have the K&R book (first edition) so I guess it's pre C89 :-)
19:43:44 <Vorpal> impomatic, actually "void easter(int year, int *month, int *date)" looks like ANSI C to me
19:44:28 <impomatic> Vorpal: I had to do that to keep the compiler happy
19:44:43 <elliott> easter(y,m,d) int *m, int *d;
19:44:53 <Vorpal> elliott, yeeeahhh.... no
19:45:07 <Vorpal> elliott, what about y?
19:45:36 <Vorpal> elliott, I can't say I have coded any pre-C89 C :P
19:45:57 <elliott> i think it is actually valid ansi c too to assume that. dunno
19:46:01 <elliott> pretty sure "auto x;" declares x as int anyway
19:46:48 <Vorpal> elliott, auto, the least useful keyword in C
19:47:02 <elliott> you misspelled most awesome
19:47:21 <Vorpal> elliott, when did you last use it in code you wrote?
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19:47:54 <Vorpal> elliott, especially when golfing right?
19:48:02 <Gregor> !c auto i;printf("I'm so glad I made %d be auto instead of static!\n", i);
19:48:20 <elliott> glogbot: AT LEAST YOU SURVIVE
19:50:14 <elliott> Someone needs to start a group that MICROWAVES FOOD for FAR TOO LONG for SCIENCE.
19:50:25 <elliott> What happens when you put hot chocolate in the microwave for two hours??????????
19:50:47 <Vorpal> Gregor, get it back up1
19:51:00 <elliott> Gregor: ONLY ONE WAY TO FIND OUT
19:51:28 <elliott> I know that if you put it in for about twelve minutes you get a liquid completely coated in thick skin that retracts and expands in wrinkles rapidly and constantly for minutes afterwards.
19:51:33 <oklopol> "Now that you are comfortable with the definition of real numbers, perhaps you would like to know how to do arithmetic with them? How to add them, and multiply them? And perhaps you might want to check that once you have defined these operations, they obey the properties you would like, such as associativity etc. Well, all I can say is---good luck. If you write this all down coherently, you will certainly be the first to have done so."
19:51:34 <elliott> Possibly the most disturbing experience of my life.
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19:51:49 <Gregor> ... bizarre, I have no idea why it was down at all ...
19:51:54 <Gregor> !c auto i;printf("I'm so glad I made %d be auto instead of static!\n", i);
19:51:55 <impomatic> Today we melted glass in the microwave... Took about 15 minutes
19:51:58 <elliott> impomatic: Well, I was thinking things you'd usually put in the microwave, just not for that long, but sure :P
19:51:59 <EgoBot> I'm so glad I made 0 be auto instead of static!
19:52:02 <oklopol> go ever further in the cauchy sequence and prove stuff on rationals, then show convergence and independence of representative
19:52:29 <elliott> PORRIDGE AFTER FORTY-EIGHT HOURS IN THE MICROWAVE: ???
19:52:50 <crystal-cola> oklopol: that bit is weird, it's trivial to show that stuff corrrect... you just need a single non-constructive step (checking if a real number is zero or not)
19:52:57 <Gregor> elliott after six weeks in the microwave: ?!?!
19:53:10 <elliott> Gregor: After ONE THOUSAND YEARS IN THE MICROWAVE: ...
19:53:21 <crystal-cola> oklopol: so not sure what is meant by that paragraph..
19:53:27 <elliott> Gregor: "Oh look. It has decomposed into quarks."
19:53:35 <Gregor> elliott, plus microwave, after the heat death of the universe: ????????????
19:53:50 <oklopol> crystal-cola: yeah dunno, i think i really just like to complain
19:53:58 <elliott> Put regular-sized microwave in extra-large microwave. Start something in the inner microwave.
19:54:00 <elliott> Close outer door. Start it.
19:54:04 <Gregor> Microwaves protect against microwave ovens.
19:54:09 <Gregor> Microwaves protect against microwave radiation.
19:54:23 <Gregor> THEREFORE: Baby in inner microwave, inner microwave in outer microwave, SAFE BABY.
19:54:33 <Vorpal> Gregor, until air runs out
19:55:00 <elliott> DO NOT PUT THE BABY IN THE NESTED MICROWAVE
19:55:20 <oklopol> well you can put it in the even microwaves
19:55:30 <Vorpal> elliott, would the inner microwave be battery powered? While the inner micro would most probably survive being microed, the AC cable to it would not
19:55:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Let's just say yes.
19:55:55 <elliott> Also, its plate would spin in the opposite direction.
19:56:07 <oklopol> a microwave would not survive another microwave
19:56:10 <Vorpal> <elliott> Also, its plate would spin in the opposite direction. <-- would it?
19:56:12 <elliott> Wouldn't the actual microwave oven itself... yeah :P
19:56:20 <elliott> Vorpal: I'd make sure it did.
19:56:36 <Vorpal> elliott, so the inner one would in fact then not rotate at all?
19:56:59 <elliott> But yeah, I think the actual oven itself would be the thing at risk :P
19:57:04 <Vorpal> <oklopol> a microwave would not survive another microwave <-- why? As Gregor said, "<Gregor> Microwave [ovens] protect against microwave radiation."
19:57:15 <elliott> BUTTER AFTER SIX HOURS IN THE MICROWAVE: ???
19:57:39 <Gregor> Vorpal: Yeah, but they have a lot of control circuitry which is supposed to be protected from the INSIDE microwaves, not OUTSIDE microwaves.
19:57:44 <oklopol> crystal-cola: hey i remember this classic line from my last reading of this
19:57:45 <oklopol> "Think clearly about the subject for a few days, and you will see that the computable real numbers are not countable , and are complete. Think for a few more days, and you will be able to see how to make these statements without any reference to `infinite sets', and that this suffices for Cantor's proof that not all irrational numbers are algebraic.
19:58:18 <crystal-cola> The computable reals are countable if you consider them as computter programs
19:58:23 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Vorpal: Yeah, but they have a lot of control circuitry which is supposed to be protected from the INSIDE microwaves, not OUTSIDE microwaves. <-- oh, true
19:58:37 <crystal-cola> so it all depends if you're "inside" or "outside" the theory
19:58:39 <Vorpal> Gregor, so you could make every other nested microwave work
19:58:40 <elliott> Cantor's microwaved diagonalisation.
19:58:59 <Gregor> Russian nesting microwaves.
19:59:01 <elliott> Oh my god we must nest these microwaves for science.
19:59:08 <elliott> We need to buy some gigantic fucking industrial microwaves.
19:59:25 <oklopol> crystal-cola: sure, but there's something funny about "think clearly", because it means "think about it the way i like to".
19:59:36 <Vorpal> Gregor, of course, that is a an obvious logical extension of the theoretical framework for microwave nesting we developed above
20:00:09 <Vorpal> <elliott> TNT IN A MICROWAVE: ??? <-- I think it wouldn't explode. TNT iirc another charge to set it off?
20:00:19 <elliott> Darn. Dynamite? I NEED AN UNSTABLE EXPLOSIVE
20:00:33 <Vorpal> elliott, dynamite wouldn't either
20:00:40 <ais523> isn't dynamite made of TNT?
20:00:49 <Vorpal> elliott, thermite would, and nitroglycerin would
20:00:50 <elliott> THERMITE IN NESTED MICROWAVES
20:00:54 <elliott> MY BAND HAS THEIR NEXT MUSIC VIDEO
20:00:56 <Vorpal> ais523, no, nitroglycerin
20:01:05 <ais523> ah, with something to stabilise it?
20:01:39 <Vorpal> ais523, yes, another material (forgot which one, some rare earth iirc), is soaked in it
20:01:57 <Gregor> I don't think a company could get away with selling a microwave the size of a garage :P
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20:02:23 <ais523> Gregor: someone would buy it, almost certainly
20:02:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I suggested that above
20:02:27 <ais523> so you'd just do them as custom builds
20:02:42 <elliott> <Gregor> I don't think a company could get away with selling a microwave the size of a garage :P
20:02:47 <Phantom_Hoover> (This would go off if you lifted it, let alone microwave it.)
20:03:03 <elliott> Gregor: If nested microwaves could actually somehow provide safety, all the band has to do is PERFORM IN ONE
20:03:08 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Nitrogen triiodide? <-- that is worse than pure nitroglycerin right?
20:03:10 <elliott> With the reverse-spinning plates so they don't end up spinning around.
20:03:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but it contains no oxygen?
20:03:32 <Phantom_Hoover> It's the stuff the sixth years in my school used to make landmines*
20:04:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I thought the key point with nitroglycerin and TNT were that they contained enough oxygen so that everything could be oxidized without needing surrounding air.
20:04:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, yes, but that's because they both have carbon as well.
20:05:14 <Phantom_Hoover> The explosivity comes from the nitrogen, because N_2 is really really stable.
20:08:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, isn't that the key principle of TNT and nitroglycerin too?
20:09:08 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> It's the stuff the sixth years in my school used to make landmines* <Phantom_Hoover> *they only really made a bang. <-- they made nitrogen triiodide?
20:09:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, huh, how is it made?
20:09:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how did they end up with this compound instead?
20:09:47 <Phantom_Hoover> But they ran out of potassium nitrate and sulphur, and when they asked for more the technician cottoned on.
20:10:00 <elliott> Can we just microwave antimatter instead?
20:10:04 <Phantom_Hoover> So he basically said "don't make that, make this!" and handed them the recipe.
20:10:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, wha...
20:10:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, fun guy
20:10:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, was he able to keep his job afterwards?
20:10:42 <elliott> Pleasepleaseplease tell me that somehow managing to microwave even a tiny amount of antimatter would destroy millions of galaxies.
20:11:28 <Vorpal> elliott, I think it would be fairly boring. It would do the usual anti-matter stuff (which isn't boring), but the microwave wouldn't really add anything
20:11:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what would that do?
20:12:02 <Phantom_Hoover> That are set up so that they absorb exactly as much mass from the microwaves as they lose to Hawking radiation.
20:12:15 <elliott> CAN YOU GET ANTI-BLACKHOLES, SAY YES
20:12:17 <Phantom_Hoover> So when you turn your microwave off, OOPS GAMMA RAY EXPLOSION
20:12:21 <elliott> I WANT TO COLLIDE A BLACKHOLE AND AN ANTI-BLACKHOLE
20:12:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I assume the aforementioned explosion would be fairly devestating.
20:13:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that is under the assumption that Hawking radiation exists. Not proven yet.
20:13:18 <elliott> has hawking in the game, qed
20:13:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: TELL ME WHAT THE GAMMA RAY EXPLOSION WOULD BE LIKE
20:14:10 <oklopol> "ANTI-BLACKHOLE" does every black hole have an equal diarrhea hole in some other part of the universe?
20:14:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: IS THAT PAINFUL IN THE SENSE OF "THE WHOLE UNIVERSE WOULD IMPLODE"
20:14:24 <elliott> OR "EARTH WOULD CEASE TO EXIST"
20:14:27 <elliott> OR "YOU MIGHT GET A FEW BURNS"
20:14:36 <Phantom_Hoover> (Although black holes confuse me because technically there's nothing actually inside the event horizon.
20:15:26 <oklopol> every black hole contains an infinite set
20:15:37 <Vorpal> <oklopol> "ANTI-BLACKHOLE" does every black hole have an equal diarrhea hole in some other part of the universe? <-- that would be a white hole I think, which I *think* would be different from an anti-black-hole
20:16:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I would assume it would kill you. Not sure how far it would reach.
20:17:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover MUST ANSWER
20:17:08 <oklopol> elliott: every time a black hole and a white hole are joined in holy matrimony, an uncountable set is born
20:17:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: WOULD IT DESTROY THE EARTH OR NOT
20:17:55 <elliott> Nothing interesting because he sucks lol
20:17:59 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
20:18:18 <oklopol> i actually do like sucking
20:18:29 <Gregor> `addquote <oklopol> i actually do like sucking
20:18:32 <HackEgo> 375) <oklopol> i actually do like sucking
20:18:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I love the way half the quotes are accidental innuendo.
20:18:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: THE BEST KIND OF QUOTE
20:19:02 <HackEgo> 207) <fungot> elliott: i like scsh's mechanism best: it's most transparent and doesn't really serve a very useful feature.
20:19:02 <HackEgo> 234) <Phantom_Hoover> OK, let's reduce the human genome to 4 chromosomes, in 2 homologous pairs.
20:19:02 <HackEgo> 203) <calamari> I got a game in my cereal box and I want to run it lol
20:19:03 <HackEgo> 199) <Phantom_Hoover> Doing logs with dc is probably indicative of something in the DSM.
20:19:04 <HackEgo> 114) <vadim> it can be a good fursuit, but the good thing is that nobody can complain a fox doesn't have the right skin tone
20:19:05 <HackEgo> 96) <Warrigal> I cannot eat meat that isn't flat.
20:19:05 <HackEgo> 42) <oklopol> i'm my dad's unborn sister
20:19:23 <oklopol> lol Phantom_Hoover likes doing logs
20:19:41 <elliott> warrigal performs cunnilingus on flat women
20:20:00 <elliott> PH wants to reduce the human genome with inbreeding
20:20:23 <elliott> because you're a paedophile
20:20:34 <HackEgo> 97 \ 97) Note that quote number 124 is not actually true.
20:20:40 <elliott> lol at how that number is wrong now
20:20:50 <HackEgo> 124 \ 124) <Gregor> Well yeah, but furthermore unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries. ... <Gregor> pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without
20:21:04 <elliott> hm why that "foo \" in front
20:21:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/quote
20:21:27 <HackEgo> 5) <Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them. \ 10) <reddit user "othermatt"> So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs? \ 11) <Lil`Cube> wouldn't that be considered pedophilia? <Quas_NaArt>
20:21:44 <HackEgo> 1 \ 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
20:21:47 <ais523> note that none of those quotes actually contain the word "the"
20:22:01 <Gregor> ais523: <Gregor> Well yeah, but furthermore unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries. ... <Gregor> pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without infringing child or slave labor laws.
20:22:10 <elliott> can i have an and sign plz
20:22:15 <ais523> elliott: for 10, indeed, that's not the word the
20:22:21 <ais523> I can't even see an embedded the for 5, though
20:22:22 <elliott> `run sed -i 's|2>/dev/null|>/dev/null 2>\&1|' bin/quote
20:22:25 <HackEgo> 9) <Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence
20:22:34 <HackEgo> 16) <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, you know the rest. \ 17) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ 26) <ehird> so i can only conclude that it is flawed, or the world is
20:25:24 <ais523> I just did sudo umount -l /
20:25:31 <ais523> and the only apparent effect was that /dev/sda1 stopped existing
20:26:07 <elliott> ais523: well, that's one way to remount read-only
20:26:17 <elliott> ais523: it's lazy, so it won't unmount until all refs disappear
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20:26:23 <elliott> you can remount immediately, though
20:26:31 <elliott> but you'd have to manually recreate /dev/sda[one]
20:26:48 <ais523> also, what is up with your number keys?
20:26:55 <ais523> I thought you were joking when you said they weren't working, in Agora
20:27:15 <elliott> ais523: they literally aren't working
20:27:15 <ais523> also, /why/ would /dev/sda1 stop existing upon doing that?
20:27:24 <ais523> as in, you press them and nothing happens?
20:27:30 <elliott> yes. one to eight. 9 and 0 work.
20:27:35 <elliott> i suspect it is one portion of the keyboard matrix.
20:27:42 <ais523> yep, sounds like a broken wire or something
20:28:00 <elliott> I'm going to backup, wipe the drive, and send it off to Apple
20:28:07 <elliott> they'll almost certainly just send me a new one
20:28:15 <elliott> as I'm pretty sure getting at the keyboard controller on a MacBook Air is downright impossible
20:28:25 <ais523> why wipe the drive? so they don't get to see your data?
20:28:37 <elliott> ais523: well, right now it boots into Linux by default.
20:28:50 <ais523> you can get 2, 3, and 5 via tab-complete on my name, at least
20:28:50 <elliott> even if that doesn't void the warranty, it'd sure as hell confuse them
20:29:02 <elliott> also, it does seem like a fairly reasonable privacy measure to take
20:29:10 <elliott> especially as they'll copy whatever to the new one
20:29:17 <elliott> and they'd probably mess up a non-trivial partition table
20:29:21 <elliott> which would just create more work for me fixing it up
20:32:50 <Vorpal> elliott, wouldn't it be easier to just move the hdd?
20:33:13 <elliott> Vorpal: Not gonna feed the troll.
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20:33:41 <Vorpal> elliott, actually my question was in ernest, why would apple not just move the ssd over, should be cheaper for them
20:34:00 <elliott> Vorpal: Because the SSD chips are printed on to the motherboard.
20:34:07 <elliott> They may technically be detachable, but it wouldn't be pretty.
20:34:15 <ais523> Vorpal: do you have any idea how to set all a running system's filesystems to readonly, apart from /dev/shm/
20:34:24 <elliott> ais523: you unmounted /, right?
20:34:26 <ais523> preferably in a way that doesnt' cause it to crash?
20:34:36 <ais523> elliott: yes, I recreated sda1
20:34:40 <Vorpal> <elliott> Vorpal: Because the SSD chips are printed on to the motherboard. <-- oh
20:34:42 <ais523> but trying to mount / says it's already mounted
20:34:43 <elliott> ais523: mount -o ro /dev/sda[one] /
20:34:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I was not aware
20:34:55 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, dammit I provided you with the numbers at GREAT PERSONAL EXPENSE
20:35:05 <elliott> the force might help beforehand
20:35:32 <Vorpal> <ais523> elliott: yes, I recreated sda1 <ais523> but trying to mount / says it's already mounted <-- what are you doing?
20:35:40 <ais523> gah, I just screwed up screen somehow
20:35:41 <elliott> <ais523> Vorpal: do you have any idea how to set all a running system's filesystems to readonly, apart from /dev/shm/
20:35:50 <ais523> Vorpal: trying to set the filesystem of a virtual machine to readonly
20:35:50 <elliott> ais523: why are you trying to do this anyway?
20:36:01 <Vorpal> ais523, hm... mount -o ro,remount / ?
20:36:08 <ais523> elliott: so you can rewind just by restoring memory, rather than having to handle the disk as well
20:36:09 <Vorpal> ais523, and same for all the other ones
20:36:11 <elliott> yeah, that's not the first thing we tried
20:36:36 <Vorpal> ais523, check with lsof to find out what process uses it
20:36:44 <elliott> Vorpal: apart from EVERYTHING?
20:36:45 <elliott> ais523: ok, what if you used switch_root?
20:36:53 <elliott> WARNING: switch_root removes recursively all files and directories on the current root filesystem.
20:36:58 <Vorpal> elliott, well I assume you are in single user mode? doing it from X is unlikely to work
20:37:11 <elliott> Vorpal: one: ais523, not me
20:37:13 <Vorpal> elliott, it is meant for initramfs
20:37:15 <elliott> two: what a stupid asumption
20:37:32 <ais523> elliott: wait, why would a command have an option to do an rm -rf --no-preserve-root /?
20:37:44 <elliott> ais523: meant for initramfs, like Vorpal said
20:37:50 <elliott> after creating the real root
20:38:07 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, all the processes on the system are using /
20:38:13 <Vorpal> ais523, the reason is so that the space on the tmpfs that the initramfs makes up can be reclaimed
20:38:28 <ais523> elliott: how would that help?
20:38:31 <elliott> ais523: mount sda[one] read-only in ~/foo, unmount super-lazy /
20:38:37 <Vorpal> ais523, read only use doesn't matter
20:38:43 <elliott> notice you are suddenly :SO HIGH:
20:38:46 <Vorpal> ais523, btw why are you doing this?
20:39:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't think bind mounts nest
20:39:13 <elliott> <Vorpal> ais523, btw why are you doing this? <ais523> elliott: so you can rewind just by restoring memory, rather than having to handle the disk as well
20:39:26 <ais523> $ sudo umount -fl / \ umount: /: not mounted \ $ sudo mount -o ro / \ mount: /dev/sda1 already mounted or / busy \ mount: according to mtab, /dev/sda1 is already mounted on /
20:39:59 <ais523> for bonus points, I found a command that makes sda1 readonly (the actual device), but it seems to be a no-op
20:40:12 <ais523> even when I made a 2MB file, in order to get around potential caching problems
20:40:25 <Vorpal> ais523, if this doesn't work out, you might want to check out snapshots in lvm. they are COW, and destroying a branch is quick (just discard the copied data)
20:40:31 <elliott> ais523: delete the sda[one] line
20:40:39 <ais523> elliott: same error, without the "according to mtab"
20:40:52 <elliott> ais523: unmount /proc, create a /proc directory, copy mtab to /proc/monuts
20:40:56 <ais523> that was inevitable, surely
20:41:05 <ais523> elliott: that's... brilliantly evil
20:41:14 <elliott> ais523: I think it's probably the syscall itself failing, but worth a shot :D
20:41:21 <ais523> umount: /proc: not mounted
20:41:23 <Vorpal> <elliott> ais523: unmount /proc, create a /proc directory, copy mtab to /proc/monuts <-- aieee!
20:41:32 <elliott> sudo cp /etc/mtab /proc/mounts
20:41:42 <ais523> indeed, /proc is an empty directory
20:42:01 <ais523> but same error even after I put a file in it
20:42:41 <ais523> I think so, but this is getting increasingly insane
20:42:45 <Vorpal> ais523, you could edit /etc/fstab to mount stuff readonly. And remove any remounting to rw from the system startup scripts. Then reboot.
20:42:47 <ais523> are you going to suggest just calling the syscall by hand?
20:42:55 <elliott> MNT_FORCE (since Linux 2.1.116)
20:42:55 <elliott> Force unmount even if busy. This can cause data loss. (Only for NFS mounts.)
20:42:55 <elliott> MNT_DETACH (since Linux 2.4.11)
20:42:55 <elliott> Perform a lazy unmount: make the mount point unavailable for new accesses, and actually perform the unmount when the mount point ceases to be busy.
20:42:55 <elliott> MNT_EXPIRE (since Linux 2.6.8)
20:42:56 <ais523> Vorpal: that involves a reboot, which defeats the point of the exercise
20:42:58 <elliott> Mark the mount point as expired. If a mount point is not currently in use, then an initial call to umount2() with this flag fails with the error EAGAIN, but
20:43:01 <elliott> marks the mount point as expired. The mount point remains expired as long as it isn't accessed by any process. A second umount2() call specifying MNT_EXPIRE
20:43:04 <elliott> unmounts an expired mount point. This flag cannot be specified with either MNT_FORCE or MNT_DETACH.
20:43:06 <Vorpal> ais523, what exactly *is* the exercise?
20:43:09 <elliott> umount[two] with all those flags
20:43:15 <elliott> ais523: then try mounting with the mount tool
20:43:16 <ais523> Vorpal: making the FS readonly on a running system
20:43:19 <elliott> note: the mount binary itself may disappear
20:43:20 <ais523> it really shouldn't be this hard
20:43:27 <Vorpal> ais523, go to single user mode, you can do it then
20:43:39 <ais523> just set the runlevel to 1 with telinit?
20:44:02 <Vorpal> ais523, in fact you can do it as long as nothing has anything open for writing on that partition
20:44:08 <elliott> ais523: can i have ssh access, this sounds like great fun
20:44:14 <ais523> elliott: not mine to give
20:44:14 <Vorpal> ais523, lsof will tell you if it is open for reading or writing
20:44:20 <ais523> well, I did sudo telinit 1
20:44:26 <ais523> and now it doesn't respond to the keyboard
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20:45:01 <fizzie> ais523: Have errors=remount-ro on, and then force some sort of an error on the filesystem?
20:45:12 <ais523> fizzie: I was beginning to think along those lines
20:45:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is ext-specific isn't it?
20:45:55 <elliott> fizzie: I was thinking that myself too
20:45:59 <elliott> since I've had my FS rendered read-only before
20:47:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes. Well, at least ext2 and such support it; some others might too for all I know.
20:48:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, I was thinking about jfs, xfs and so on
20:48:19 <Vorpal> speaking of which, is brtfs any good yet?
20:48:33 <Vorpal> (good implies stable here)
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20:49:29 <elliott> It's controlled by Oracle, so it'll never be (mentally) stable.
20:53:42 <Gregor> "Btrfs supports a very limited form of transaction without ACID semantics: rollback is not possible, only one transaction may run at a time and transactions are not atomic with respect to storage."
20:53:58 <Gregor> In what way is that transactions at all :P
20:54:52 <ais523> isn't that a semaphore?
20:54:55 <ais523> rather than a transaction?
20:55:05 <Gregor> Is it even a semaphore? Sounds like a mutex :P
20:55:07 <ais523> the two concepts are rather different
20:55:12 <elliott> yeah but if Oracle says it's a transaction
20:55:21 <ais523> Gregor: a mutex is a boolean semaphore, isn't it?
20:59:56 <Gregor> `run echo 'foo() { echo $1 }; foo bar' | csh
20:59:57 <fizzie> There is this much-circulated btrfs discussion, https://lkml.org/lkml/2010/6/18/144 -- but that's almost a year old and I make no claims to the truthfulness of it.
21:00:09 <Gregor> Of course not, why the hell would I have csh :)
21:07:08 -!- azaq23 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:07:15 <fizzie> "if you're on 2.6.32 or older
21:07:15 <fizzie> You should consider upgrading. The error behaviour of Btrfs [when running out of disk space] has significantly improved, such that you get a nice proper ENOSPC instead of an OOPS or worse."
21:09:22 -!- azaq23 has joined.
21:10:16 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/gv1xy/urgent_need_to_know_right_fucking_now_is_it_safe/
21:11:42 <elliott> Professional Octopodes of the World.
21:12:22 <oklopol> is it a thread about fucking octopodes safely?
21:15:15 <oklopol> i recently heard an octopus dies of boredom if you don't give it toys
21:15:40 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:15:47 <oklopol> (a friend owns some sort of aquarium shop)
21:17:37 <oklopol> well, sure, on the other hand it's pretty damn cool
21:20:55 <Phantom_Hoover> On account of suddenly realising "Jesus my heart's not beating", which is interesting.
21:20:59 <oklopol> i'm not an octopus, i'm an okLopOL
21:21:21 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "So what's the last interesting thing to happen to you?" "Uh, my heart stopped beating."
21:27:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god there's an obnoxious republican on 10 O'Clock Live saying that the figurehead of state should be elected.
21:35:11 <ais523> I bet the Queen would be elected in the UK if we had a figurehead election
21:35:27 <ais523> pretty much everyone agrees she makes a great figurehead, the only real complaint is how much she costs
21:35:34 <ais523> although she probably brings in more money than that in tourism
21:36:12 <ais523> apparently, one of the princesses lost all her money doing something or other years ago, and made it back by going on American chat shows; I'm not sure of the details
21:37:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the Queen is fine, the problem is that Charles clearly has ideas above his station.
21:38:00 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. that he matters as anything more than a reader of speeches.
21:38:20 <ais523> he is heir to the throne, technically
21:38:28 <ais523> although people keep forgetting and assuming Prince William is
21:39:10 <elliott> hmm, it looks like charles is unlikely to die before the queen
21:40:23 <oklopol> what if william and charles die?
21:40:50 <oklopol> and whoever Phantom_Hoover says next
21:41:08 <Gregor> They have a line of succession thousands long.
21:41:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: What if the entire Royal family goes extinct.
21:41:19 <elliott> Apart from the fact that we'd all be dead.
21:41:20 <Vorpal> oklopol, yes, the TARDIS was an UK invention wasn't it?
21:41:24 <oklopol> ah okay that's what i've understood
21:41:30 <oklopol> "<Gregor> They have a line of succession thousands long."
21:41:42 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, impossible, since there is no well-defined Royal family.
22:00:51 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:05:57 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
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22:16:11 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell elliott Clear out your goddamn MemoServ inbox already.
22:18:03 <Vorpal> <KingOfKarlsruhe> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXWVFJg1Ve0 <-- I don't know the language, what is it about?
22:18:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, all I can tell so far is that they are standing with something strange at a toilet and arguing
22:20:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what was in that thing
22:20:18 <Vorpal> that just blew up the toilet
22:21:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what sort is what I meant
22:21:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh right
22:21:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I thought you were
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22:23:50 <Vorpal> KingOfKarlsruhe, and what was that he put in then?
22:26:49 <KingOfKarlsruhe> Vorpal: in german we call it "Vogelschreck", it is used to chase away birds
22:30:02 <Vorpal> KingOfKarlsruhe, no clue what that is
22:30:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it's a small explosive. You really suck at this.
22:31:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, suck at what? explosives? yes
22:32:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well it doesn't answer anything really. Like what it is made of
22:32:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which is what I'm interested in
22:33:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, well, I know now, but I'm not going to tell you because it took me about 30 seconds.
22:44:06 <Gregor> Subtract and branch if zero is TC, right?
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23:09:53 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell elliott AAAAAAAAAAAAAA MY MERE HUMAN BRAIN IS INSUFFICIENT
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23:38:00 <Sgeo> There may be reopening!
23:38:05 <Sgeo> And no one, not even me, cares.
23:38:09 <zzo38> Can we make the variant of [[Muxcomp]] that uses internal CPU registers, some of which are shared between execution units?
23:39:25 <Gregor> People who use twitter: What's twitterese for "Send answers by tagging @whoever"?
23:40:37 <Sgeo> If you're @whoever, then probably "reply" or "mention"
23:40:50 <zzo38> Do they have any documentation about such thigns?
23:41:13 <Gregor> Sgeo: Like "reply @whoever"?
23:41:16 <Sgeo> zzo38, it's more a cultural thing than a formal thing. Yet, these days Internet culture does have documentation *mindboggle*
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23:41:35 <Sgeo> Gregor, I guess. But then what if they want to put a . in front... I don't know
23:42:03 <Gregor> ... what IF they want to put a . in front?
23:42:21 <Sgeo> As in, they want everyone to see it, not just you
23:42:39 <Gregor> That goes at the start of the message, it's unrelated :P
23:42:47 <Gregor> Oh I see what you mean
23:51:59 <Gregor> How 'bout "Answer@CaptainHats"?
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00:41:00 <zzo38> When you die, are you going to make sure you die laughing?
00:45:22 <pikhq> I can make no guarantees.
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01:24:19 <pikhq> Buffer overflow in a SELF loader's header check.
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01:28:37 <pikhq> ... And it gets you the bootldr keys.
01:31:13 <pikhq> ... That's the entire chain of trust.
01:31:20 <pikhq> Sony accidentally the chain of trust.
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01:36:19 <pikhq> Yup, seems that as soon as someone bothers to dump/leak the lv0 keys, the PS3 will be *permanently* hacked.
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01:47:07 <zzo38> pikhq: Someone should do that, then. And then watch Sony earn a lot of money because of that, and yet, still, they will discontinue the product.
01:49:51 <pikhq> zzo38: I probably would, and post it via Tor, if my PS3 still worked.
01:49:59 <zzo38> Even worse, nobody (not even the people who work at Sony in a few years) will know the reason why it would be discontinues.
01:51:16 * pikhq needs to buy some thermal paste and give it a bake
01:52:36 <zzo38> Is the PS3 broken?
01:53:18 <zzo38> If so, what makes it broke?
01:53:33 <pikhq> I need to do a reflow on it; it's exhibiting the symptoms of the solder joints on the GPU having gone bad...
01:53:46 <pikhq> Damned lead-free solder.
02:02:21 <pikhq> Shame it's not a 360.
02:02:31 <pikhq> The 360, you can do a solder reflow on by making it overheat.
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02:33:37 <zzo38> Does vi/vim have the mode to ding when reaching a certain column?
02:55:06 <pikhq> I seem to have come down with a cold. That sucks.
02:59:07 <pikhq> And I seem to be short on pastimes ATM.
02:59:34 <pikhq> And, of course, reddit is down.
03:00:20 <zzo38> Then make up something else.
03:01:54 <pikhq> Screw you and your logic!
03:03:08 <pikhq> I resent "logic", therefore colorless green dreams sleep furiously!
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03:19:05 <zzo38> I have to make up the new D&D character for a separate campaign, by Monday at 16:00J. It is 5th level (6th level for multiclassed characters). I have to try to make decision, such as: Is there colors of chalk? Is there colors of marbles? Does this game have magnetic marbles?
03:22:11 <fizzie> Also important: have you lost your marbles?
03:23:21 <zzo38> fizzie: No, but they have lost terminal. I did not even select any equipment yet, so there is nothing to lose, yet.
03:27:40 <Gregor> http://i.imgur.com/dMoYQ.jpg
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03:50:48 * pikhq has discovered that Jagermeister tastes amazing.
03:51:26 <pikhq> The primary flavor in it is liquorice.
03:51:42 <pikhq> And I <3 liquorice.
03:53:37 <pikhq> Damn straight you do.
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03:58:45 <copumpkin> but actual licorice, not the red sweet candy stuff that's like twizzlers
03:59:09 <pikhq> The red sweet candy stuff is also nice at times. But that's not fucking liquorice.
03:59:18 <pikhq> Actual liquorice is the flavor of the gods.
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04:00:24 <pikhq> (incidentally, if you really want the red sweet candy stuff, Red Vines > Twizzlers so fucking much)
04:01:01 <copumpkin> I've tried the stuff they sell at Trader Joe's
04:01:08 <copumpkin> it's not bad, but it's kinda sweet
04:01:37 <pikhq> Hmm, may not be a national brand...
04:02:12 <pikhq> I know it's out of California, and fairly readily available in Colorado.
04:16:45 <Sgeo> I am now incredibly fed up with xkcd
04:19:08 <Sgeo> The current xkcd is pretty much the same as a previous xkcd
04:20:22 <pikhq> Oh, look, devoid of humor.
04:20:41 <pikhq> No, wait, it has negative humor value.
04:22:13 <Sgeo> It's not that. It's that it's essentially the same as a previous one.
04:26:56 <pikhq> There's a birth defect which results in the formation of a cloaca.
04:28:05 <Gregor> It's called "not being a mammal" :P
04:28:29 <pikhq> Gregor: First, the monotremes have cloacas.
04:28:35 <pikhq> Gregor: Second, I meant "in humans".
04:29:34 <Gregor> I hereby expel the monotremes from mammalia.
04:30:30 <pikhq> The marsupial genitalia are also completely and utterly bizarre.
04:32:00 <pikhq> They have two-pronged penises and two vaginas attached to seperate uteruses.
04:32:23 <Gregor> Redundancy: It's good for you.
04:32:53 <pikhq> And the fetus is fed via a yolk.
04:33:39 <pikhq> Yes, they give live birth basically by not shelling the egg.
04:33:55 <Gregor> Heywait, nobody ever answered: Subtract and branch if zero is TC, right?
04:34:27 <pikhq> I don't see why not.
04:34:46 <pikhq> After all, subtract and branch if less than or equal to zero is TC...
04:35:01 <pikhq> Seems it'd just make some branching code even more tedious.
04:35:24 <Gregor> Tedium is irrelevant, all that matters is brevity :P
04:36:19 <Gregor> I'm trying to find the non-cheating useful[1] language with the shortest working interpreter (in C). [1]: Useful means either TC, or non-TC for reasons of limited types not fundamental to the semantics of the language.
04:37:09 <Gregor> With my condition as equality to zero, I can use a simple ?: on the subtraction op, rather than having a comparison :P
04:39:45 <Gregor> Also, it has to be a non-cheating language, no system() :P
04:39:59 <pikhq> I see no reason that SBZ wouldn't be TC.
04:40:22 <pikhq> It has branching, self-modification, and arithmetic.
04:40:23 <Gregor> I'm down to 86 characters, bounded storage machine, plus IO just for lols.
04:40:39 <Gregor> Also it uses gets because I'm awesome.
04:41:24 <Gregor> http://sprunge.us/RQVd
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04:42:01 <Gregor> I could shave off some space in one easy way I choose not to, plus it actually depends on the signedness of chars which sucks >_>
04:42:32 <Gregor> Oh, plus it's some horrible amalgam of C99 and pre-ANSI C :P
04:43:24 <pikhq> Well, since you're already doing GNU C, you can just do -fsigned-char or -funsigned-char. :P
04:43:50 <Gregor> Mmmm, I don't think this strictly depends on GNU C.
04:44:02 <pikhq> "C99 and pre-ANSI C"
04:44:16 <pikhq> That working is a GNU-ism. :P
04:44:35 <Gregor> Does C99 allow "main(){}" as a program? I don't think so ...
04:44:54 <Gregor> Right, yeah, that's why.
04:45:04 <Gregor> I would need five extra chars for "void ", unless it doesn't even allow main to be void.
04:45:42 <pikhq> You could remove a space by doing "char*a,b[9<<9]={0};"
04:45:49 <pikhq> And main can't be void, no.
04:46:09 <Gregor> You're not allowed to modify b, are you?
04:46:36 <Gregor> Then I'm wasting craploads on 'a' maintenance :P
04:46:44 <pikhq> It's an array on the stack that is all 0s.
04:46:58 <pikhq> {0} is an initialiser, not a constant.
04:47:06 <Gregor> Nonono, I don't mean the content of the array.
04:47:20 <Gregor> Of course I can modify the content :P
04:47:44 <pikhq> ... I doubt it, but GNU might allow it in spite of standards and common sense.
04:48:05 <Gregor> I'd really rather not STRICTLY depend on GNU X-D
04:49:45 <Gregor> I'll bet clang could compile it too :P
04:51:07 <Gregor> Wait, char b[1024]={0} is C99, right?
04:51:35 <Gregor> Bleh, I'd need memset to accomplish that otherwise >_>
04:51:45 <Gregor> memset is six characters! :P
04:52:05 <pikhq> char*a,b[9<<9];main(){...}
04:52:25 <pikhq> Globals are 0-filled by default.
04:52:37 <Gregor> Is that guaranteed to be zero by the C standard? I thought it just happened to be guaranteed to be zero by Unix/ELF/nonsense.
04:52:49 <pikhq> Yes, that is a guarantee.
04:53:08 <pikhq> Which is *why* .bss exists.
04:53:13 <Gregor> Still, b[9<<9] is definitely not OK since 9<<9 isn't a literal :P
04:53:42 <Gregor> You know what I just realized .... 9<<9 is smaller than 9999 >_<
04:53:54 <pikhq> Well, there you go. :)
04:54:53 <Gregor> Muahaha, works and 81 chars >: )
04:55:48 <pikhq> Now, how do you feel about making it also confusing?
04:56:19 <pikhq> Array indexing is commutative. >:D
04:56:50 <pikhq> (as *(a+1) == *(1+a)
04:56:53 <zzo38> (x[y]==*(x+y)) I think, it is same thing, as additional commutate
04:57:02 <Gregor> Except that typeof(1) !== typeof(a)
04:57:08 <pikhq> Gregor: Irrelevant.
04:57:18 <pikhq> Gregor: Array indexing does not work how you think it does.
04:57:30 <pikhq> Gregor: a[b] *is* *(a+b) forall a,b.
04:57:57 <zzo38> One of them is a number the other is a pointer. It has to be, because it is not sense to add two pointers together. Therefore is allow to be commutative.
04:58:46 <Gregor> pikhq: Wow, that shit compiles with -ansi -pedantic *brain explodes*
04:59:12 <pikhq> Gregor: It's entirely valid and well-formed ANSI C.
04:59:15 <zzo38> Is because it is valid, there is no good reason to make non-valid such things!!!
04:59:40 <Gregor> zzo38: Except of course for basic sanity >_>
04:59:54 <Gregor> pikhq: Still, I'm going for brevity, I'm not attacking clarity for the sake of attacking clarity.
05:00:19 <pikhq> It does so amuse me to do that, though.
05:00:37 <zzo38> But it should be compile error to write (*42) because you should need an explicit cast between numbers and pointers; implicit cast should be disallowed (but it isn't, it is only warning, too bad)
05:00:50 <Gregor> But come on, I've got a bounded storage machine interpreter for a pseudouseful language in 81 bytes of C!
05:00:57 <pikhq> zzo38: I'm pretty sure it is at least a warning.
05:01:18 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes it is a warning. It ought to be error to make such implicit cast.
05:01:56 <pikhq> In the few cases where you really *mean* it, you're probably doing an explicit cast anyways.
05:03:17 <pikhq> Gregor: If only you could make use of the arguments to main to get some variables for cheap.
05:03:46 <Gregor> pikhq: I was thinking about using an arg instead of getsing my code, but I couldn't find a way to do it in less characters.
05:04:02 <pikhq> main(int n,char*a){// Write over n, a immediately}
05:04:14 <pikhq> So very nice if you need an integer and a char pointer.
05:04:32 <zzo38> The only case should be an implicit cast from literal zero (or a constant expression making zero, such as (5-5)) to pointer is null pointer, and pointer to boolean, in similar way. But explicit cast such as ((char*)0) ought to always correspond to actually address zero instead.
05:04:38 <pikhq> Yeah, I was merely lamenting that.
05:04:59 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes even in codegolf, Anarchy golf, it can be done like that, I do like that.
05:05:02 <pikhq> zzo38: It's not an implicit cast from zero to null pointer.
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05:05:15 <pikhq> zzo38: "0" *is* a null pointer.
05:05:36 <pikhq> Minor distinction that is utterly irrelevant.
05:05:50 <zzo38> pikhq: I think zero should be an implicit cast to a null pointer, but if you use an explicit cast, instead corresponds to address 0 (usually also the null pointer, though).
05:06:41 <pikhq> How many systems are there around where NULL isn't expressed as 0, anyways?
05:06:54 <pikhq> I mean, uh, there's Lisp machines which had NULL expressed as nil...
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05:07:10 <zzo38> pikhq: I do not know if there are any such system. I am just saying what would be my opinion.
05:07:18 <Gregor> pikhq: I love how you go straight from pedantry to practicality :P
05:07:34 <pikhq> zzo38: I named one.
05:09:09 <zzo38> I think it is OK to have 1[a] and a[1] same thing, by commutative addition, make sense. (Gregor's comment about sanity, although not wrong, is wrong because you cannot always sanity, please. I can sometimes sanity, please.)
05:09:44 <Gregor> `addquote <zzo38> ... you cannot always sanity, please. I can sometimes sanity, please.
05:09:47 <HackEgo> 376) <zzo38> ... you cannot always sanity, please. I can sometimes sanity, please.
05:18:20 <zzo38> Is there a way to tell the compiler that the program uses more stack?
05:24:40 <pikhq> No, because the compiler doesn't determine the size of the program's stack.
05:25:01 <pikhq> The stack is allocated by the kernel on process creation.
05:25:24 <pikhq> The closest you could get is allocating a new stack and switching to it.
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05:28:35 <zzo38> pikhq: How can you make that while not being specific to only one computer?
05:30:00 <pikhq> zzo38: The setcontext family of functions in POSIX lets you switch stacks.
05:31:54 <zzo38> Does gdb have a command to check the amount of stack usage?
05:32:12 <zzo38> And to trap in case of too much?
05:33:33 <pikhq> If you find one, let me know.
05:34:03 <pikhq> BTW, if you use setcontext et al, be aware that it is very hard to debug screwups.
05:34:59 <zzo38> OK I will try to let you know.
05:35:09 <pikhq> I tried using it for continuations in C... I'm not sure how, but I got a null pointer as the return address for a function.
05:35:23 <pikhq> Needless to say, gdb is no help.
05:36:29 <zzo38> I was looking for something I also found libunwind, does that help at all?
05:36:40 <zzo38> (I mean, with what you are doing)
05:53:00 <Ilari> Oh, yesterday's stats: APNIC (2x/32 IPv6): 4x1k+/32 to Australia, 3x1k to China, 1k to Indonesia, 1k to India, 4x1k+/32 to Japan, 2x1k to Sri Lanka, 2x1k to New Zealand, 1k to Singapore, 1k to Thailand.
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05:59:23 <pikhq> Any reason for using /32s as the unit?
05:59:47 <pikhq> Wouldn't it make more sense to use /22, i.e. the minimum allocation unit at APNIC?
06:01:27 <Ilari> The minimum unit is really a /24. I don't know if that can be allocated, but at least it can be assigned.
06:03:09 <pikhq> /22 is the minimum APNIC will allocate itself.
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06:32:13 <oklopol> "<Gregor> People who use twitter: What's twitterese for "Send answers by tagging @whoever"?" <<< no one uses twitter
06:35:23 <pikhq> In reality, Twitter is a test case for AI research.
06:38:49 <oklopol> i understand that people had to use twitter and facebook before irc was invented, but now they just feel like ancient history
06:44:15 <pikhq> `addquote <oklopol> i understand that people had to use twitter and facebook before irc was invented, but now they just feel like ancient history
06:44:18 <HackEgo> 377) <oklopol> i understand that people had to use twitter and facebook before irc was invented, but now they just feel like ancient history
06:47:18 <coppro> pikhq: you should sue the government for violating treaties
06:47:24 <coppro> under the supremacy clause of the constitution
06:48:15 <pikhq> coppro: Precedent is that I do not have standing to sue unless I can demonstrate that I have been significantly affected by it.
06:48:21 <pikhq> Yes, this is bullshit.
06:49:45 <Sgeo> What is Flatland doing in the non-fiction section? I mean, I see why it's in Science (although imo it should be Math), and that of course is in Non-fiction
06:49:54 <Sgeo> But... it's just
06:50:01 <Sgeo> http://www.feedbooks.com/books/categories
06:50:19 <Sgeo> Hope you don't hit a 500
06:50:35 <coppro> pikhq: you should orchestrate yourself into that then
06:50:44 <coppro> just make a career out of getting standing to sue and suing
06:51:11 <pikhq> Sgeo: Victorian-era satire is apparently non-fiction.
06:51:20 <pikhq> coppro: Non-trivial but awesome.
06:51:53 <pikhq> coppro: Problem is, the treaties I care about would be *very* hard to make applicable without being at high risk of death.
07:02:19 <pikhq> How, exactly, do you propose that I sue the government for violations of the Convention Against Torture without being in a really shitty state?
07:16:02 <coppro> pikhq: could you argue that your faith in the constitution as the supreme law of the land is shaken?
07:17:50 <pikhq> coppro: I'd be laughed out of court.
07:17:56 <pikhq> Thereby demonstrating my point.
07:18:37 <coppro> pikhq: it's the tort of emotional distress
07:18:47 <coppro> they have violated the law and made you feel bad
07:20:54 <pikhq> *Moreover*, the government could no doubt succesfully argue sovereign immunity.
07:25:52 <coppro> fuck I have to live there for thre emonths
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07:37:00 <pikhq> It's the only country I'm legally permitted to live in.
07:51:29 <coppro> I'm legally permitted to live in it until October
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08:34:02 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, well, I know now, but I'm not going to tell you because it took me about 30 seconds. <-- it translates to "birds" for me...
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11:14:05 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/01961_1.gif
11:14:17 <Phantom_Hoover> OK this is quite probably the most ridiculous thing ever.
11:17:02 <cheater99> http://www.impredicative.com/ur/demo/
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12:26:53 <Sgeo> It's official: My favorite candy is marshmellows
12:37:21 <cheater99> i always thought candy was like more "solid" stuff
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12:37:35 <cheater99> a marshmallow is almost like whipped cream... and you wouldn't call that candy
12:38:02 <cheater99> where be the fine thin line between marshmallow and jelly?
12:46:23 <Gregor> I would say the thing it's most similar to is meringue.
12:46:37 <Gregor> Which isn't considered a candy /per se/, but then in many contexts marshmallow isn't considered a candy /per se/.
12:47:02 <cheater99> yeah, i'm a bit on the border with this
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12:47:23 <cheater99> Candy, specifically sugar candy, is a confection made from a concentrated solution of sugar in water, to which flavorings and colorants are added.
12:47:35 <cheater99> i think a marshmallow is made from sugar syrup
12:47:50 <cheater99> so technically you could say by ingredients it's a sort of candy.
12:49:02 <crystal-cola> the stuff you buy in shops is probably synthesized from cow brains
12:49:10 <crystal-cola> but you can make them from sugar and egg white
12:54:09 <cheater99> anytime i ask a question related to haskell, i end up arriving at an answer from dons
12:54:34 <cheater99> right now i've asked a question in #haskell, searched around for hours, and he's written a paper answering it in full, many years ago
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13:50:45 <crystal-cola> show that x^15 + y^3 = 34^34 has no integer solutions
14:00:17 <ais523> gah, diophantine equation!
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14:01:42 <Slereah> Diphantus wouldn't like that either!
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14:16:03 <Gregor> wtf, apparently the Open Watcom compiler has unsigned chars by default >_>
14:16:18 <ais523> Gregor: both signed and unsigned char by default are legal
14:16:24 <ais523> and unsigned char is more plausible in some senses
14:16:46 <Gregor> ais523: But I'm writing an interpreter in the fewest possible characters, so I assume signed char to save characters :P
14:16:56 <Sgeo> Prove that a^n+b^n=c^n has no integer solutions a, b, and c for n>2
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14:17:32 <ais523> Gregor: apparently MSVC++ throws an exception at runtime on an attempt to cast a signed int to a signed short, if the value overflows a short
14:17:46 <ais523> that's legal too, but I thought it was completely absurd
14:18:41 <Sgeo> [I did get that right, right?]
14:18:49 <Gregor> ais523: YOU ARE NOT HELPING
14:19:02 <crystal-cola> Sgeo: I don't think that can be solved by elementry methods
14:19:04 <Gregor> I don't want my 79-char interpreter to balloon because of friggin' portability issues :P
14:19:34 <ais523> just use int everywhere, it's one integer shorter than char
14:20:04 <ais523> you should probably put "nonzero" in there somewhere
14:20:59 <ais523> => xyz(n+2)(n+1)n(n-1)(n-2) = 0
14:22:33 <cheater99> Sgeo: that's easy, i just wrote it down on a napkin.. but i had to blow my nose
14:23:06 <ais523> crystal-cola: it's very easy to prove true for n <= -3, given a proof for n >= 3
14:23:08 <cheater99> anyone know what the smallest complete computer system is that ghc can compile efficient code for?
14:23:25 <ais523> it's false at those values
14:23:26 <cheater99> would an Atom based system be the smallest thing they'd reasonably run with?
14:23:44 <ais523> 1/3 + 1/6 = 1/2 for n=-1 is probably the simplest example
14:24:08 <augur> crystal-cola: what are you doing, capacitance calculations? gtfo.
14:24:41 <Sgeo> augur, crystal-cola appears to have left troll-mod.
14:24:56 <Sgeo> So why are you yelling at em?
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14:25:09 <ais523> and 1/15^2 + 1/20^2 = 1/12^2
14:26:56 <augur> there are ofcourse infinitely many solutions to that equation
14:27:01 <augur> and are easy enough to find
14:27:12 <augur> without using fractions, no less!
14:28:10 <augur> you dont, since theres an infinite number of them
14:28:17 <augur> you can only constraint your search one way or another
14:29:23 <augur> or at least im pretty sure there are infinitely many
14:30:48 <augur> yes, there are infinitely many
14:30:53 <augur> tho probably not many interesting ones
14:31:00 <augur> well, maybe lots of interesting ones
14:31:23 <augur> atleast a little bit
14:37:20 * Gregor refuses absolutely to add "signed " :P
14:44:49 <ais523> why does it need to be signed, anyway?
14:47:14 <Gregor> Because it's an offset, and if it's unsigned then I can only go forwards, so I can't e.g. loop at all :P
14:49:25 <Gregor> But explicitly calling it signed makes it 86 characters! D-8
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14:50:28 <ais523> Gregor: why does it have to be a char, then?
14:50:30 <crystal-cola> ,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,1
14:50:38 <Gregor> ais523: Because I gets it.
14:50:49 <Gregor> ais523: If it's not a char, then I have endianness issues, and that's even grottier.
14:50:52 <crystal-cola> it's like it's trying to be periodic but ise't
14:51:05 <ais523> you're reading a char... with gets?
14:51:23 <Gregor> I'm reading a char ARRAY
14:51:47 <Gregor> Fundamentally this is subtract-and-branch-if-zero, with word size 8 bits.
14:52:06 <ais523> you're unlikely to beat MiniMAX
14:52:25 <ais523> which is actually TC even with bounded inputs, unlike many other OISCs
14:52:25 <crystal-cola> nested reccurences have some weird ability to do this
14:52:45 <ais523> Vorpal: Gregor, because he's golfing
14:52:54 <Gregor> ais523: How many chars is MiniMAX?
14:53:04 <ais523> Gregor: 8 bytes of machine code, for the main loop
14:53:15 <Gregor> I don't care about machine code, I care about chars of C :P
14:53:17 <ais523> if you want I/O and that sort of thing, you have to go up to 32 or so
14:53:32 <ais523> Gregor: char[] main = "insert shellcode here"
14:53:51 <Gregor> ais523: Even my assume-char-is-signed C code is an effload more portable than that :P
14:54:22 <ais523> Vorpal: have you never seen that trick before?
14:54:38 <Vorpal> ais523, looks utterly unportable yeah
14:54:41 <ais523> the trick itself is at least moderately portable, although obviously the shellcode isn't
14:54:51 <Gregor> Well of course the trick itself is portable :P
14:55:00 <Gregor> Plus it'd take lots of bytes to \x \x \x :P
14:55:05 <Vorpal> ais523, I can't imagine that it would work. Presumably it would end up in .data?
14:55:17 <Vorpal> ais523, which would have NX flag turned on. So it couldn't execute
14:55:30 <ais523> the first IOCCC, the winning entry worked like that, but with a polyglot between the two most common machine codes of the time
14:55:35 <ais523> and it predated people turning on NX out of habit
14:55:43 <Vorpal> ais523, "out of habit"?
14:55:58 <ais523> Vorpal: well, in their linker defaults
14:56:07 <Vorpal> I think in general it is a good thing to have. If you really don't want it you can turn it off. But it is a good default to have it on
14:56:26 <ais523> also, your last sentence sounded worryingly zzo38ish
14:56:46 <ais523> I don't mind zzo38 talking like that, but from anyone else it's pretty scary
14:57:36 <Gregor> My rules for myself include "no cheating", which to me meant "no using system() or exec*()", but I think can easily be extended to "no writing machine code in C" :P
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14:57:59 <Vorpal> ais523, I didn't make as many grammatical errors I think?
14:58:04 <Gregor> I did not, however, define how portable that C had to be, which is why I'm in an ethical quandry of signedness :P
14:58:12 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
14:58:16 <elliott> Gregor: Is this about the jit stuff?
14:58:28 <elliott> Gregor: That relies on signed overflow :P
14:58:28 <ais523> elliott: Gregor's golfing a TC interpreter
14:58:43 <elliott> Relying on signed overflow is So Bad.
14:58:46 <ais523> oh, any language as the language it interprets
14:58:50 <elliott> ais523: What language b- right.
14:58:52 <ais523> but both are relevant when golfing
14:58:53 <Gregor> elliott: This is about golfing a useful[1] interpreter. [1]: Useful means TC, or TC except for a bounded word (and hence) memory size, so computationally equivalent to a computer.
14:58:57 <elliott> Shorter than lifthrasiir's BF one?
14:59:04 <Gregor> elliott: I'm at 79 bytes.
14:59:22 <ais523> <ais523> Gregor: apparently MSVC++ throws an exception at runtime on an attempt to cast a signed int to a signed short, if the value overflows a short
14:59:24 <Vorpal> Gregor, which language does it interpret?
14:59:31 <Gregor> Vorpal: Subtract-and-branch-if-zero.
14:59:40 <ais523> elliott: rare to see languages actually treating signed overflow like MSVC++, though...
14:59:47 <elliott> Gregor: Tried ByteByteJump or similar?
15:00:07 <elliott> uint32_t *pc = (uint32_t *)mem;
15:00:07 <elliott> pc = (uint32_t *)(mem + pc[2]);
15:00:25 <elliott> You can easily do while(some condition on pc) to get a halt instruction.
15:00:32 <elliott> And IO can be memory-mapped.
15:00:37 <Vorpal> ais523, hm. That would be easy to exploit to write a program that is quite a bit slower in MSVC++ than in gcc
15:00:37 <Gregor> elliott: That is so much more than 79 bytes :P
15:00:45 <elliott> Gregor: Because it's ungolfed.
15:00:52 <Gregor> Also, I forgot I fixed it up a bit, and I'm at 77 bytes.
15:01:01 <ais523> Vorpal: I'm not entirely sure that you could catch the resulting exception in a vaguely portable way
15:01:07 <ais523> because I'm not even convinced it's a C++ exception
15:01:15 <ais523> but a more general Windows exception, of which C++ exceptions are a special case
15:01:30 <Vorpal> ais523, well, it has to check for it, even if it doesn't occur
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15:01:51 <Gregor> elliott: Also, your has the portability issues I was concerned about ... my only portability issue is it assumes that chars are signed, yours interprets a different language for big-endian and little-endian machines ...
15:02:02 <Vorpal> that means testing if a flag was set, and branching to "throw exception" code.
15:02:21 <ais523> Vorpal: that's going to make a negligible differnce
15:02:39 <ais523> a correctly predicted test-overflow-and-branch is incredibly quick compared to a single memory access
15:02:52 <ais523> (and an incorrectly predicted one slow only because it needs to make memory accesses to load the code you branch to)
15:03:17 <Gregor> elliott: Are you kidding me? Of course it does.
15:03:30 <elliott> Gregor: Are you going to clarify how or just keep stating that :P
15:03:41 <ais523> <Slashdot> An anonymous reader writes "Amazon has officially denied that the recent outage of its EC2 and Elastic Block Storage cloud platforms was the result of an attack from Cyberdyne Systems' Skynet sentient computer system, declaring humanity safe after all. 'From the information I have and to answer your questions,' a spokesperson explained, 'Skynet did not have anything to do with the service event at this time.'
15:03:45 <elliott> Gregor: It's UB C-wise because it overflows a signed value, but I don't know any CPU that does that wrongly, and gcc accepts it fine.
15:04:04 <elliott> 23:39:25: <Gregor> People who use twitter: What's twitterese for "Send answers by tagging @whoever"?
15:04:12 <elliott> Gregor: "Reply to [at]whoever" or similar, surely
15:04:20 <elliott> Since [at]whoever is used as both an identifier of the person and the account
15:04:29 <Gregor> elliott: You're aliasing an 8-bit and 32-bit value, then setting the PC based on the reading the /32/-bit value, after setting the /8/-bit value.
15:04:29 <elliott> And talking to someone always involves mentioning their [at]whatever
15:04:34 <Gregor> elliott: You're in endianness hell.
15:04:39 <Vorpal> ais523, I *assume* that the quote is invented.
15:04:43 <elliott> Gregor: Where the heck does eight bits come in.
15:04:57 <elliott> Gregor: Which instruction are you talking about
15:05:09 <elliott> Gregor: You're referring to the ByteByteJump code which I didn't write?
15:05:13 <elliott> And instead copied from the wiki?
15:05:18 <elliott> I thought you were talking about my Fythe stuff X_X
15:05:24 <Vorpal> (a person asked such a question would probably say something different, and be rather confused by the question)
15:05:29 <Gregor> elliott: I'm talking about language golfing here :P
15:05:34 <Gregor> elliott: Your Fythe code is fine :P
15:05:42 <elliott> Gregor: Yah, I'm just saying that something like ByteByteJump MIGHT BE SIMPLER :P
15:05:45 <elliott> And provided that as an example.
15:06:01 <ais523> I'm personally wondering about cyclic tag, but that might cause memory management problems in C
15:06:12 <elliott> ugh, cyclic tag in C would be horrible
15:06:14 <ais523> if you don't just want to use a cyclic buffer
15:07:05 <elliott> http://www.netaddiction.com/ "Internet chat rooms cause social disorders in teens and adults."
15:07:44 <elliott> author of "Breaking Free of the Web: Catholics and Internet addiction"
15:07:47 <oerjan> elliott: why? don't you just need a pointer to the beginning and to the end, and suitable bounds checking?
15:07:59 <elliott> oerjan: but Gregor has it in seventy-nine bytes
15:08:04 <elliott> that sounds like at least eighty already :D
15:08:08 <elliott> Gregor: Can I see your code btw?
15:09:10 <oerjan> <elliott> FILTHY LIES <-- YEAH LET'S GO SET FIRE TO HIS HOUSE AS PUNISHMENT
15:09:28 <elliott> oerjan: AND GAMBLE ONLINE TO SPITE HER
15:09:35 <elliott> Gregor: I wanna try and make it portable :P
15:09:39 <Gregor> elliott: http://sprunge.us/RbfK
15:09:48 <elliott> Gregor: Pastebin for a single line, noice :P
15:09:56 <Gregor> elliott: Dats rite bich
15:10:04 <oerjan> BUT I CANNOT AFFORD GAMBLING, I'M USING ALL MY MONEY ON DRUGS
15:10:05 <elliott> Gregor: So this is K[and]R C, right?
15:10:23 <oerjan> and on internet, of course
15:10:40 <elliott> "main()" is only valid in K[and]R C.
15:10:43 <Gregor> elliott: Well, it's semitraditional C in that it doesn't have a return type --- yeah :P
15:10:50 <elliott> Gregor: You also assume that sizeof(char pointer) == sizeof(int), because you don't have a prototype for gets or puts.
15:11:02 <elliott> This is Blatantly False on large numbers of architectures.
15:11:05 <Gregor> elliott: I don't use their return values either.
15:11:14 <elliott> Gregor: That's just an error-checking problem.
15:11:22 <elliott> Gregor: This is a portability problem :P
15:11:34 <elliott> Gregor: Remember that char-pointers and ints could have _different calling conventions_.
15:11:40 <elliott> And I'll be damned if there isn't a machine where they do.
15:12:14 <Gregor> elliott: What is the standard for how arguments are passed to no-prototype functions? I don't think it's int, int, int. I think it's like varargs. But I don't recall.
15:12:51 <elliott> Gregor: Hmm, you might be right. Still, I don't think there's any guarantee puts and gets will work with that convention.
15:12:54 <elliott> Kinda the point of prototypes :P
15:13:01 <elliott> Darn, 9<<9 is smaller than 9999.
15:13:09 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, I already did that :P
15:13:47 <Gregor> elliott: Since I'm already assuming chars are signed, I think I've consigned myself to allowing such nonportable assumptions as "the machine is even vaguely sane"
15:13:50 <elliott> Gregor: BTW, I'm not sure less than ten kibibytes (not octets, bytes) of memory counts as "Useful" :P
15:13:57 <Gregor> (Not that the latter implies the former)
15:14:03 <oerjan> 12:53:47: <cheater99> dons is scaring me
15:14:03 <oerjan> 12:54:09: <cheater99> anytime i ask a question related to haskell, i end up arriving at an answer from dons
15:14:07 <elliott> Also, I'm trying to remove such assumptions... OK, only the char one.
15:14:10 <crystal-cola> Find all natural x,y,z such that 5^x - 3^y = z^2
15:14:18 <oerjan> there's no reason to be scared until you start hitting oleg papers instead
15:14:24 <Gregor> elliott: If you do, you'll blow it up for no good reason.
15:14:25 <elliott> Gregor: Why can't you just use an int array?
15:14:43 <elliott> OK, so the code has to handle setting all the high bits.
15:14:53 <elliott> Actually, gets will write to it properly, I think.
15:15:01 <elliott> As in, [four-or-whatever] bytes to the int.
15:15:31 <elliott> Gregor: btw, your second argument is already an array pointers to chars... you could use that as memory... just sayin'
15:16:51 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, I thought about doing it in args, but bleh, that's so grotty, even for a golflang :P
15:17:10 <elliott> Gregor: I assume you have seen the shortest BF interp?
15:17:13 <Gregor> elliott: I'm trying to make this to be a challenge for someone to decode and write a program for, not to just be retarded, btw.
15:17:26 <elliott> Oh. MY DESIRE TO MODIFY IT LESSENS
15:17:49 <Gregor> elliott: I'm not sure I have ...
15:18:06 <Gregor> I'd be surprised if it's <77 bytes :P
15:18:08 <elliott> s[99],*r=s,*d,c;main(a,b){char*v=1[d=b];for(;c=*v++%93;)for(b=c&2,b=c%7?a&&(c&17
15:18:08 <elliott> ?c&1?(*r+=b-1):(r+=b-1):syscall(4-!b,b,r,1),0):v;b&&c|a**r;v=d)main(!c,&a);d=v;}
15:18:09 <elliott> http://j.mearie.org/post/1181041789/brainfuck-interpreter-in-2-lines-of-c
15:18:22 <elliott> Yeah, it relies on Unix, but still :P
15:18:27 <Gregor> ... why does it need to be two lines? X-P
15:18:33 <elliott> (Linux and BSD have the right syscalls (read and write).)
15:18:41 <elliott> Gregor: Because people like to measure things in lines of code, and it's two eighty-char lines.
15:19:09 <elliott> Anyway, if you want int memory, you can omit "char" entirely.
15:19:24 <elliott> b[9999],*a;main(){gets(a=b);while(*a)a+=(a[*a]-=a[a[1]])?3:a[2];puts(b);}
15:19:29 <elliott> I maed it shorter and moar portable
15:19:40 <Gregor> ... no, you made it LESS portable, now it depends on endianness.
15:20:01 <Gregor> At least with chars you can give most compilers -flol-make-your-chars-signed-kthx
15:20:20 <Gregor> You can't do -flol-be-big-endian-now-just-for-kicks
15:20:37 <elliott> It should be a processor flag.
15:21:20 <Gregor> It is on some processor, but even on those it has to be specified once and for all for the whole runtime, not per-program.
15:21:21 <Vorpal> <elliott> It should be a processor flag. <-- some CPUs work like that
15:21:41 <Vorpal> Gregor, hah, one second before you (on my side)
15:21:52 <Gregor> Vorpal: Mine is more usefully detailed :P
15:21:58 <elliott> Gregor: Nope nope nope, you should be able to flip it at arbitrary times, followed by a jump instruction.
15:22:06 <elliott> Then OSes would just flip it in their multitasking stuff.
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15:22:18 <elliott> And you could change endianness HALF WAY THROUGH THE PROGRAM to take advantage of either.
15:22:22 <Gregor> elliott: Yes, that was my point, even the ones that do aren't sufficient.
15:22:26 <ais523> elliott: oh, I thought you mean they'd change the endianness of the jump addresses
15:22:31 <ais523> so as to make a primitive sort of jump table
15:22:34 <elliott> Gregor: Yes. Clearly we must rectify this issue.
15:23:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I think PPC (32-bit ones) used to have something like that. I distinctly remember reading that some virtualisation software for PC that ran on classical mac used it to speed up things, but G5 lacked it, so the program had to be rewritten a bit
15:23:45 <Vorpal> elliott, no. As in macs emulating x86
15:23:58 <elliott> I still remember seeing a Mac box with "PowerPC" on it, and I assumed that was the box that made it able to run Windows, and the real Mac was underneath the desk, out of sight :D
15:24:00 <Vorpal> like, for running windows back on OS 9
15:24:25 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Surround_notation&curid=3828&diff=22129&oldid=22126
15:24:29 <elliott> TehZ is retarded, discuss?
15:24:41 <elliott> the C example isn't even a C example of that
15:25:02 <elliott> "Prefix notation is one of the four operator notations. It is sometimes combined with surround (when it needs a variable amount of arguments). It is one of the three powerful notations (Prefix, Postfix notation, Surround notation)."
15:25:08 <elliott> ITT: TehZ has never heard of the ternary operator.
15:25:48 <Gregor> elliott: BTW, even if the whole memory is only 9999 bytes, I'm not confident that you can USEFULLY access more than 256 bytes :P
15:25:58 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh wait, "one of the three _powerful_ notations"
15:26:03 <elliott> Can someone just delete those three articles on account of being fucking stupid.
15:26:10 <elliott> "Infix notation is one of the 4 possible ways to describe a program. It is not as powerful as the others, so people usually add parenthesis, which makes it a combined notation (Infix-Surround)."
15:26:20 <elliott> esolangs.org/TehZ's_opinions_blog/
15:26:28 <elliott> esolangs.org/TehZ's_opinions_blog/my_terminology_is_correct/
15:27:15 <elliott> ais523: Administrative opinion on the NPOVness and pointlessness of those worthless articles? :P
15:27:36 <elliott> `addquote <pikhq> o.O <pikhq> There's a birth defect which results in the formation of a cloaca. <Gregor> It's called "not being a mammal" :P
15:27:40 <HackEgo> 378) <pikhq> o.O <pikhq> There's a birth defect which results in the formation of a cloaca. <Gregor> It's called "not being a mammal" :P
15:27:51 <crystal-cola> ais523: did you like this one? 2^(2^m+2^n)|F_n^(F_m-1)-1
15:27:59 <elliott> ais523: clearly /wiki/ means that in TehZ's native language
15:28:21 <crystal-cola> actually now that I look at it again it's not as crazy
15:28:33 <elliott> which is why we have four wonderful articles, one of which's name he just made up, and one of them referring to Infix as a non-powerful notation because you also need his (made-up-name) surround notation of parentheses to use it fully
15:28:44 <elliott> and referring to prefix, postfix and surround as "powerful" notations
15:28:50 <elliott> despite surround being unary, and so not "powerful" by his definition
15:28:59 <elliott> and despite the fact that the ternary operator, and array indexing, don't fall in to any of those categories
15:29:19 <elliott> "Infix notation is one of the 4 possible ways to describe a program." ;; also, there is no relation to programs, it is merely a way operators can be used
15:29:27 <elliott> yeah ok every single word in these articles is wrong
15:30:18 <elliott> 04:45:04: <Gregor> I would need five extra chars for "void ", unless it doesn't even allow main to be void.
15:30:24 <elliott> Gregor: main cannot return void in any standard ever.
15:30:32 <elliott> I don't even think it's strictly valid GNU C.
15:30:45 <Gregor> elliott: Yeah, we came to that conclusion, but I'm golfin' here :P
15:31:30 <Gregor> elliott: I just wanted all of the C features it used to be from the same decade X-D
15:31:39 <elliott> 04:53:13: <Gregor> Still, b[9<<9] is definitely not OK since 9<<9 isn't a literal :P
15:31:59 <elliott> because you can do [foo+bar]
15:32:08 <ais523> elliott: actually, C89 and C99 both allow freestanding implementations to change the return value of main if necessary
15:32:08 <Gregor> It's irrelevant though since it's less than 9999 :P
15:32:17 <elliott> lol at Gregor realising that one[x] works :P
15:32:28 <elliott> ais523: puts and gets ain't freestanding :P
15:32:30 <Gregor> elliott: MY BRAIN HATES IT SO MUCH
15:33:18 <Gregor> I wish I could express a[a[1]] more succinctly.
15:33:54 <ais523> void _exit(int rv) { (void)rv; goto *(void*)0; }
15:33:59 <elliott> [asterisk](a + [asterisk](a + [one]))
15:34:17 <elliott> Yah, I think you are fucked :P
15:34:23 <Gregor> ais523: goto *(void*)0; isn't portable.
15:34:35 <ais523> Gregor: do you have a portable definition of _exit?
15:34:47 <oerjan> <elliott> TehZ is retarded, discuss? <-- maybe not in so strong words. but yeah those last articles seem a bit ill-considered.
15:35:24 <elliott> oerjan: I was also basing this on the fact that all the languages of his that I've seen are stupid :)
15:35:37 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Compute/IO <-- yes, we really need this.
15:36:41 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Java%27
15:36:43 <ais523> elliott: it's from gcc-bf; I was trying to remember if I'd used an unportable sort of main, but I didn't (I just call main by hand from some C code that actually starts the program)
15:36:45 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Java%27%27
15:36:50 <elliott> which we agreed were the worst pages ever, I believe :)
15:36:57 <elliott> ais523: The goto is unportable, though :P
15:36:59 <ais523> but there's that great definition of exit
15:37:05 <elliott> ais523: What's with the (void)rv :P
15:37:10 <Gregor> wtf, I logged in and answered from a different computer, and it went nowhere >_<
15:37:13 <ais523> elliott: to mark it as unused
15:37:15 <elliott> ais523: Putting it into a "register"?
15:37:24 <elliott> You can still use rv afterwards.
15:37:32 <ais523> it's a common portable idiom to mark an argument as unused
15:37:33 <elliott> Is your interpretation of those semantics conformant
15:37:37 <ais523> and it does nothing except stop lint complaining
15:37:50 <ais523> as in, you don't get an unused argument error after doing that
15:37:56 <ais523> and even compilers which don't know the idiom will just ignore it
15:38:03 <ais523> it's much the same thing as writing if((a=b))
15:38:09 <Gregor> OK, wtf, am I actually connected at all? CAN YOU HEAR ME?
15:38:18 <Gregor> <Gregor> ais523: void _exit(int rv) { (void)rv; *((int*)0) = 0; } is exactly as portable.
15:38:20 <Gregor> <Gregor> ais523: Unless you find me a system that disallows writing to NULL but allows jumping to NULL :)
15:38:22 <Gregor> <Gregor> Err, rather, it's exactly as system-portable, while also being substantially more compiler-portable.
15:38:28 <elliott> ais523: Even with -ansi -pedantic -Wall -Wextra -Werror?
15:38:33 <ais523> Gregor: I didn't hear that
15:38:35 <Gregor> Finally that went through.
15:38:43 <ais523> anyway, jumping to NULL is what I needed to do there
15:38:51 <elliott> Gregor: It's not really lag, more the fact that freenode's new ircd sucks balls.
15:38:52 <ais523> writing to NULL wouldn't accomplish anything useful at al
15:39:26 <Gregor> ais523: So what you're saying is, you've found me a system that allows writing to NULL but disallows jumping to NULL :P
15:39:42 <ais523> no, the other way round
15:39:54 <ais523> gcc-bf disallows writing to NULL, but allows jumping to NULL
15:39:59 <ais523> well, jumping to *NULL, to be precise
15:40:13 <Gregor> Oh, this is all about gcc-bf? Is it being developed?
15:40:22 <ais523> goto *(void*)0; is definitely undefined behaviour
15:40:28 <elliott> ais523: it's GNU C only, too
15:40:36 -!- jix has joined.
15:40:37 <ais523> so I can make it do what I like
15:40:56 <elliott> ais523: what I'm saying is
15:41:02 <elliott> because it's not even C code
15:41:07 <elliott> it's a simple parse error, even
15:41:10 <Gregor> It's "syntax error" in C :)
15:41:10 <ais523> does the standard define it?
15:41:23 <elliott> the standard defines what Undefined Behaviour means
15:41:26 <ais523> elliott: it's not bullshit, it's actually how the standard works
15:41:36 <elliott> or is it just Not a Program?
15:41:50 <ais523> anything it doesn't define is undefined, in addition to things specifically marked as undefined
15:42:07 <ais523> #if __SOME_IMPLEMENENTATION_NAMESPACE_FOO
15:42:29 <elliott> it is an invalid program IFF that thing is set
15:42:32 <ais523> (it needs the last line to be valid C, as you have to have at least one declaration or definition per file)
15:42:34 <elliott> I would totally bother to read the standard to prove you wrong, but I'm far too lazy to, so I'll ping fizzie instead.
15:42:46 <Gregor> Are we SERIOUSLY arguing about whether a syntax error is UNDEFINED BEHAVIOR? >_<
15:42:52 <ais523> Gregor: indeed, we are
15:43:08 <ais523> the only thing that's definitively defined as making a program incorrect is #error
15:43:12 <elliott> Gregor: No, we're not, because fizzie is going to reply with two paragraphs from the standard that prove us right :-P
15:43:13 <Gregor> IT ISN'T EVEN BEHAVIOR, DEFINED OR OTHERWISE
15:43:16 <ais523> anything else is implementation-defined or UB
15:43:59 <elliott> 05:06:41: <pikhq> How many systems are there around where NULL isn't expressed as 0, anyways?
15:43:59 <elliott> 05:06:54: <pikhq> I mean, uh, there's Lisp machines which had NULL expressed as nil...
15:44:14 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
15:44:22 <Deewiant> "A conforming implementation shall produce at least one diagnostic message (identified in an implementation-defined manner) if a preprocessing translation unit or translation unit contains a violation of any syntax rule or constraint, even if the behavior is also explicitly specified as undefined or implementation-defined."
15:44:37 <ais523> 4.2: If a ‘‘shall’’ or ‘‘shall not’’ requirement that appears outside of a constraint is violated, the behavior is undefined. Undefined behavior is otherwise indicated in this International Standard by the words ‘‘undefined behavior’’ or by the omission of any explicit definition of behavior. There is no difference in emphasis among these three; they all describe
15:44:38 <ais523> ‘‘behavior that is undefined’’.
15:44:47 <elliott> OK, so Deewiant proves ais523 half-right :P
15:44:53 <elliott> But also us half-right because you still have to whine about it.
15:45:02 <ais523> I proved me the other half right
15:45:12 <ais523> although I should probably have reformatted that copy-paste from a PDF
15:45:16 <elliott> no, you added no new information to what Deewiant said
15:45:28 <elliott> `run sed -i 's/\.\.\. you cannot/[...] you cannot/' quotes
15:45:33 <HackEgo> 376) <zzo38> [...] you cannot always sanity, please. I can sometimes sanity, please.
15:45:58 <ais523> elliott: Deewiant's quote says that syntax errors should produce diagnostics even if also explicitly specified as UB
15:46:01 <ais523> mine says that they're specified as UB
15:46:17 <elliott> ais523: that's only true if there is no paragraph stating what a syntax error is, or similar
15:46:25 <elliott> other things can override that
15:46:37 <ais523> no, it says that if a ''shall'' / ''shall not'' that appears outside of a constraint is violated, the behaviour's undefined
15:46:49 <ais523> is the grammar of C a constraint? no
15:47:01 <elliott> ais523: you know how Agora rules can override universal quantifications in other rules?
15:47:16 <ais523> only if sufficiently powerful
15:47:27 <oerjan> > let a = 1:zipWith(-)[2..](map((undefined:a)!!)a) in a
15:47:28 <lambdabot> [1,1,2,3,3,4,4,5,6,6,7,8,8,9,9,10,11,11,12,12,13,14,14,15,16,16,17,17,18,19...
15:47:32 <elliott> ais523: the C standard is all the same power.
15:47:44 <ais523> yep, so a contradiction between rules would be an error in the standard
15:47:51 <ais523> thus, there are no relevant contradictions, thus that rule is correct
15:48:07 <oerjan> > let a = 1:zipWith(-)[2..](map((undefined:a)!!)a) in zipWith(-)(tail a)a
15:48:08 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,1,0,1,1,0,1,0,1,1,...
15:48:12 * elliott wonders whether Agora really is notable...
15:48:31 <elliott> ais523: you're trolling again
15:48:41 <ais523> I don't think it is, because there are no newspaper articles, etc., about it, and you'd expect there to be if it were
15:48:42 <elliott> because parts of standards blatantly do override generalisations in other parts
15:48:54 <elliott> are you sure there aren't?
15:49:05 <ais523> no, but I think we'd likely have noticed if there were
15:49:19 <elliott> maybe there was in the nineties
15:49:31 <ais523> 6.8.6.1.1 "The identifier in a goto statement shall name a label located somewhere in the enclosing function."
15:49:42 <ais523> it says "shall", no contradiction with the other rule, no attempt to take scope
15:49:44 <elliott> ais523: irrelevant, what matters is the syntatic definition
15:49:52 <elliott> it can't name a label in _another_ scope
15:49:54 <ais523> oh, wait, that's a constraint
15:49:57 <elliott> which is not a syntax error
15:50:41 <elliott> we will haven't found out if syntax errors are defined in a way that, through overriding or otherwise, doesn't count that catch-all
15:51:04 <ais523> jump-statement : goto identifier ; | continue ; | break ; | return expression_opt ;
15:51:12 <elliott> yep, but we need a more general statement about syntax errors
15:51:18 <elliott> <ais523> 6.8.6.1.1 "The identifier in a goto statement shall name a label located somewhere in the enclosing function."
15:51:31 <elliott> this sentence is meaningless if a goto statement contains something that isn't an identifier instead
15:51:46 <Gregor> Yeah, we haven't even gotten to "it's a goto statement"
15:51:55 <elliott> ais523: and I don't think something can be UB if making it valid would make a sentence in the standard meaningless
15:52:22 <ais523> there is no such thing as an invalid program in C, unless it contains #error
15:52:23 <elliott> Gregor: it isn't, by that jump-statement rule
15:52:31 <ais523> just programs that require diagnostics, and programs that don't
15:52:37 <elliott> ais523: <elliott> ais523: and I don't think something can be UB if making it valid would make a sentence in the standard meaningless
15:52:47 <elliott> if you're complaining about
15:52:54 <elliott> this is C-pedantry, not English-pedantry
15:53:22 <elliott> if something is UB but can't, in any way, be given an interpretation without making lines in the standard meaningless or wrong
15:53:30 <elliott> then that's a perfectly acceptable definition of "invalid" to me
15:54:19 <ais523> elliott: what makes you think that goto *(void*)0; is a goto statement?
15:54:22 <ais523> rather than some other sort of statement?
15:54:32 <elliott> it isn't, but you seem to be arguing it is
15:54:38 <ais523> it clearly doesn't fit the syntax for goto statements, it might just be coincidence that it has the keyword "goto" in
15:54:50 <ais523> I'm not, I'm just arguing it's UB because the standard doesn't define it
15:55:33 * elliott ponders going into hash-hash-c and asking for help with the program "}][K()VPOLE{A:">,z00"
15:55:45 <ais523> although here's a nice statement, the definition of UB: " behavior, upon use of a nonportable or erroneous program construct or of erroneous data, for which this International Standard imposes no requirements"
15:55:55 <elliott> "I know it's UB, but it's perfectly defined on my system, so can you just help me fix my problem, which is in the ANSI C part?"
15:55:57 <ais523> so as far as I can tell, the burden's on you to find an actual requirement that's imposed
15:56:01 <ais523> although I'm looking for one here
15:56:21 <elliott> 06:38:49: <oklopol> i understand that people had to use twitter and facebook before irc was invented, but now they just feel like ancient history
15:56:27 <ais523> elliott: I'd go into comp.lang.c and say I had a question about the meaning of the standard, as to whether the program in question is completely meaningless or merely UB
15:56:52 <elliott> ais523: ah, I don't think you understand the part where I'm trying to annoy hash-hash-c because they're shitheads :)
15:57:02 <ais523> but you generally don't take threads there until comp.lang.c has told you to
15:57:02 <elliott> with any luck, PoppaVic wouldn't shut up for a whole day
15:57:34 <ais523> I can call out 4.7 on you, too
15:57:46 <ais523> which basically says that a program is conforming if at least one conforming C implementation accepts it
15:57:57 <ais523> so that would be the question, I suppose
15:58:03 <elliott> GNU C isn't conforming, when it accepts statements like that
15:58:31 <ais523> can an implementation that merely diagnostics on, rather than rejecting, goto *(void*)0; be conforming?
15:59:07 <ais523> my guess is yes, because conforming implementations are allowed extensions that don't affect the behaviour of any strictly conforming programs
15:59:19 <elliott> are we on the fast-track to saying that every object is a valid C program
15:59:21 <ais523> and I doubt you can use that line, other than in a string or ifdeffed out, in a strictly conforming function
15:59:25 <Deewiant> "The intent is that an implementation should identify the nature of, and where possible localize, each violation. Of course, an implementation is free to produce any number of diagnostics as long as a valid program is still correctly translated. It may also successfully translate an invalid program."
15:59:30 <elliott> because in platonic space, there is a perfectly conforming C implementation that accepts any object
15:59:33 <ais523> elliott: unless it has a #error directive in it that isn't ifdeffed out, yes
15:59:42 <elliott> ais523: invalid IS defined
15:59:53 <ais523> elliott: that shows that it's used
16:00:12 <Deewiant> (That was a footnote for "[d]iagnostic messages need not be produced in other circumstances.")
16:00:23 <ais523> also, the footnotes aren't normative
16:00:24 <Deewiant> (Which follows my previous paste)
16:00:40 <ais523> anyway, cpp $1 && echo "This is a diagnostic." is a valid C compiler
16:00:50 <elliott> the C standard is a crock of shit, let's argue about RRRRRS instead
16:00:55 <elliott> the C standard is a crock of shit, let's argue about RRRRRRS instead
16:01:05 <ais523> the cpp step's only needed to catch #error
16:01:17 <ais523> and RRRRRRS is only R5RS
16:01:26 <elliott> one, R[seven]RS is not out now, you are wrong
16:01:34 <ais523> oh, it's in beta or something?
16:01:43 <elliott> It's called a draft of Small Scheme.
16:01:49 <elliott> I don't even know if any work has been done on Big Scheme.
16:01:54 <crystal-cola> But that's okay since R6RS was a huge step backwards
16:01:56 <ais523> elliott: they named it something else, IIRC
16:02:01 <ais523> the people who liked it
16:02:02 <elliott> But I don't really give a damn because the committee has lost all respect.
16:02:14 <ais523> and then pretended it wasn't Scheme
16:02:21 <elliott> I have no idea what you're talking about
16:02:48 <ais523> I can't remember, but it was something about the people who liked R6RS made a trivial derivative and renamed it, then pretended it wasn't Scheme, for some sort of reason I don't understand
16:03:05 <elliott> I haven't heard anything about that, but everyone who likes R6RS is basically insane, so nothing can surprise me.
16:03:40 <elliott> Incidentally, Small Scheme as defined by the R[Seven]RS draft is pretty much identical to R[Five]RS, except for the removal of two random functions and one or two changes that seem stupid.
16:03:56 <elliott> e.g. adding a module system, which is useful for /systems/, which is not the target market of R[Five]RS family languages like Small Scheme
16:04:25 <ais523> anyway, I can't find any evidence of my statement
16:04:35 <ais523> so either a) I was mistaken, or b) I was completely accurate but nobody cared
16:06:56 <ais523> ah, it was a group of people on Reddit, who may or may not have been lying, claiming that Racket went and forked R6RS (the spec), then removed all references to it being Scheme
16:07:05 <ais523> and based on their website, that does indeed seem to be the case
16:07:27 <elliott> It astonishes me how often ais523 seems to take things from reddit, distort them utterly, and then immediately start to present them as fact.
16:07:28 <ais523> <Wikipedia> On June 7th, 2010, PLT Scheme was renamed Racket to emphasize how far it had diverged from the original Scheme programming language.
16:07:41 <elliott> For a start, Racket is not a fork of R[six]RS.
16:07:51 <ais523> elliott: but everyone knows reddit's view of reality is distorted! I'm just distorting it back again!
16:08:03 <elliott> PLT Scheme is a derivative of R[five]RS. It is significantly different.
16:08:09 <elliott> They decided to rebrand to Racket because
16:08:19 <elliott> (one) Schemers were pissed off that it was called Scheme, and
16:08:26 <elliott> (two) they were pissed off that people thought it was Scheme.
16:08:35 <ais523> actually, it seems that there was a flamewar on reddit over the point
16:08:39 <ais523> with people quoting statistics at each other
16:08:47 <elliott> A flamewar on reddit? SHOCKING
16:08:57 <ais523> about whether the PLT Scheme/MzScheme people were responsible for R6RS or not
16:09:12 <elliott> well, they all voted for it :)
16:09:40 <ais523> oh well, it's not like I care too much about Scheme anyway
16:09:51 <elliott> Yeah, it's so inelegant because it has quote.
16:10:10 <ais523> what, as in 'x or (quote x)?
16:10:17 <ais523> oh, you're talking to me?
16:10:27 <ais523> yes, I find Lisp/Scheme-style macros incredibly inelegant and ugly
16:10:32 <elliott> I have no idea, you just seem to hate special forms because of [incomprehensible].
16:10:34 <elliott> Special forms are not macros.
16:10:36 <ais523> all special forms, in fact
16:10:53 <elliott> Yes. The lambda calculus would be far better.
16:10:57 <elliott> Lambda is a special form too.
16:11:13 <elliott> OMG YOU MEAN THAT LANGUAGES HAVE PRIMITIVE ELEMENTES??////////////////////////
16:11:18 <ais523> crystal-cola: well, I prefer to keep the number down, not encourage proliferation
16:11:34 <ais523> I consider combinatory calculus nicer than lambda calculus specifically because it doesn't have to track lambdas
16:11:48 <elliott> but S and K and I are primitives
16:11:55 <elliott> therefore they're pretty close to special forms
16:12:06 -!- lament has joined.
16:12:23 <ais523> elliott: well, the thing's parametric on them
16:12:39 <ais523> you can have them as an FFI to a different language, if you liek
16:13:15 <ais523> (in the compiler I'm writing at work at the moment, all the constants are in fact implemented via FFI, apart from integers because it would be a pain to have to implement each integer separately, and the fixed-point operator because it's too polymorphic)
16:13:28 <elliott> Can I replace Feather with the SKI+RRI calculus that has complete definitions of all of those in terms of themselves?
16:13:49 <ais523> err, I'm not sure what you mean by replacing Feather
16:13:59 <elliott> As in, use Feather to turn Feather into
16:14:54 <ais523> I fear it'd take more sanity than I have left just to fully understand the question
16:15:00 <ais523> so I hope I don't have to answer it
16:15:19 <elliott> ais523: OK, let me rephrase.
16:15:37 <elliott> ais523: Can I use Feather to create an SKI environment in which SKI are /not/ primitives, but defined, despite the fact that there is no lambda?
16:15:47 <elliott> It can also have RRI or some other similarly Feather Operator, so long as it is also defined.
16:16:13 <ais523> it'd have to be metacircular-by-cheating, I think
16:16:22 <ais523> but it could be done in such a way that there'd be no way to prove it
16:17:40 <ais523> (I'm talking Gregor levels of metacircular, here
16:18:13 <Gregor> HEY, mine totally was not cheating.
16:18:23 <Gregor> The environments were still strictly segregated.
16:18:48 <ais523> I still haven't actually seen it
16:19:12 <ais523> because even after I temporarily broke my no-github policy to try to look at it, I was then unable to see it because github requires JS or something silly like that
16:19:47 <Gregor> Yes, it requires JS for pull requests (which is weird)
16:20:14 <elliott> You have a no /visiting/ GitHub policy?
16:20:27 <ais523> elliott: its ToS used to disallow my browser
16:20:36 <elliott> ais523: you never agreed to its ToS, it only applies to registering
16:20:37 <ais523> it's been changed to be slightly saner since, but it's still a little ridiculous
16:20:45 <ais523> elliott: I know, but it's the principle of the thing
16:20:54 <elliott> Sometimes I wonder if ais523 exists purely to remind everyone in the universe that someone will always make things awkward.
16:21:11 <ais523> elliott: in this case, github
16:22:40 <Gregor> ais523: http://sprunge.us/LSPX
16:23:02 <ais523> Gregor: that's pretty much exactly what I guessed it was
16:23:17 <ais523> not in the details, but in the concept
16:23:17 <elliott> Gregor: You should have pasted it in-channel to be annoying :P
16:23:29 <Vorpal> <ais523> elliott: its ToS used to disallow my browser <-- huh?
16:23:46 <elliott> Vorpal: It forbid blocking ads, despite the fact that there were no ads and as such the clause was inactive.
16:24:01 <elliott> It now no longer does so but ais523 upholds his policy because it's inconvenient, or something.
16:24:05 <Gregor> ais523: Right, and it's TOTALLY NOT CHEATING, it's straight-up metacircularity!
16:24:05 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, that is somewhat silly in the TOS indeed.
16:24:15 <elliott> Also it only applies to registered accounts, which ais523 never created, and so it was doubly-irrelevant.
16:24:18 <ais523> function isValidIdentifierChar(ch, first) { var x = {}; x["x"+ch] = true; x[ch] = true; try { return (eval("(x." + (first?"":"x") + ch + ")") ? true : false); } catch (ex) { return false; } }
16:24:26 <ais523> I don't see why that can't be pasted in-channel
16:24:34 <elliott> function isValidIdentifierChar(ch, first) {
16:24:34 <elliott> // create an object to test this in
16:24:39 <elliott> return (eval("(x." + (first?"":"x") + ch + ")") ? true : false);
16:24:51 <elliott> you stripped valuable things, like the comment
16:24:52 <ais523> elliott: you didn't reformat it first? shame on you
16:24:56 <elliott> you stripped valuable things, like the comment
16:25:07 <elliott> technically i skipped a blank line
16:25:07 <ais523> that wasn't particularly valuable, and besides, it'd have commented out the rest of the line
16:25:16 <elliott> precisely, so your method of pasting was bad
16:25:21 <ais523> I thought about changing the comments to /* */ instead, though
16:25:30 <ais523> but the point is the meaning of the code
16:25:32 <Vorpal> didn't hackego or some other bot in here had a wolfram alpha interface iirc?
16:26:01 <ais523> elliott: no; would you consider posting a disassembly of .NET or jvm code to be lying?
16:26:06 <Gregor> "then try" = most valuable comment ever.
16:26:25 <ais523> and if not, why would you consider preprocessing code mentally slightly to be lying?
16:26:41 <ais523> bear in mind that I've posted Python oneliners in here before
16:26:45 <elliott> Vorpal's filtering of all-caps comments are also lying.
16:27:06 <Vorpal> no, I'm pre-processing them to not be all caps
16:27:12 <ais523> of the form exec " if x:\n do this\n else:\n do that"
16:27:18 <ais523> assuming I've got the Python syntax right
16:27:22 <ais523> it's something like that, anyway
16:27:29 <Vorpal> besides, the only person I would be "lying" to would be myself.
16:27:38 <ais523> (note that this is a great argument for one-char indentation; using any more would make it even harder to read)
16:27:58 <ais523> Vorpal: heh, you have a script/replace that lowercases allcaps comments?
16:28:04 <elliott> ais523: just use Enterprise Braces Syntax instead
16:28:07 <ais523> I have an interrobang remover, but it doesn't actually work
16:28:22 <Gregor> Y'know, even though I've typed "unsigned char" uncountably many times, it makes more sense for it to be signed by default, since that's consistent with all the other types.
16:28:33 <elliott> Gregor: char makes no fucking sense in general :P
16:28:40 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: is that one interrobang plus four regular question marks?
16:28:49 <ais523> and if not, wtf is my interrobang remover doing?
16:29:11 <elliott> Gregor: There should be a signed "byte" type, and an unsigned "char" type. That's a lie, but that's how it should have been back when ASCII made any sense at all.
16:29:12 <ais523> elliott: no, that wouldn't make a difference
16:29:16 <ais523> it's replacing... all but the first?
16:29:20 <Vorpal> ais523, yes, a few days ago elliott was using upper case for almost every line, this went on for about 5 screens of scrollback
16:29:36 <elliott> Gregor: Really there should be a signed byte type and a unsigned-twenty-one-bits-or-more-with-undefined-overflow "codepoint" type :P
16:29:37 <ais523> you know what IRC clients should do? combine all lines spoken in a row by one person together
16:29:40 <Gregor> elliott: "byte" is too specific a name for C. It should be "reallyshort" :P
16:29:45 <ais523> although it'd mean you'd always be one line behind
16:30:03 <Vorpal> ais523, but actually it is somewhat more advanced, than "all caps" in deciding if to lower case a line or not
16:30:29 <ais523> there was actually an argument on comp.lang.c as to whether short short int; should be added to the standard in preparation for 128 bits becoming a common length for int
16:30:51 <ais523> or, well, 64-bit int, 128-bit long
16:31:02 <ais523> so how do you specify both 16 and 32?
16:32:16 <Vorpal> ais523, I can see an issue here if we get more lengths. We can get up to 128 on the current scheme (int = 32, long = 64, long long = 128) but after that we start getting silly names like long long long long for 512 bits.
16:32:55 <Vorpal> of course, stacking short at the other end would only mitigate the issue temporarily.
16:33:22 <Vorpal> why not move everything and call 16-bit "long char"
16:34:36 <Vorpal> so, short short char, short char, char, long char, long long char, short short int, short int, int, long int, long long int.
16:35:03 <Vorpal> hm is short int valid in current C?
16:35:42 <ais523> it means the same thing as short
16:35:49 <Vorpal> ais523, but char int isn't I presume?
16:36:49 <Vorpal> wait, you could extend the above scheme by applying the same principle as used for a compass orientation like "ENE"
16:37:01 <Vorpal> so you could have long short char and so on
16:40:12 <elliott> why /isn't/ "char int" valid?
16:40:16 <elliott> it is the stupidest of the types.
16:40:27 <Vorpal> elliott, in the name, yes indeed
16:40:37 <elliott> but why isn't it just a modifier like short?
16:44:03 <Vorpal> ais523, another way to solve the issue would be to not define the extra types but instead depend on stdint.h. Which is perfectly fine to implement using some implementation specific way
16:47:51 <oerjan> cheater99: JUST BE HAPPY YOU DON'T KNOW
16:48:27 <cheater99> oerjan: tell me... i want to be prepared
16:48:43 <ais523> you know what's annoying? websites that modify cookies whenever you change which form field has focus
16:49:04 <cheater99> oerjan: also, earlier today i google images'd dons' real name, and i came up with a photo of john holmes, a porno star.
16:49:17 <oerjan> http://okmij.org/ftp/ don't say i didn't warn you
16:49:42 <cheater99> which is even more funnier given the fact that john holmes once used a screen name of eddie haskell.
16:50:01 <cheater99> oerjan: i've actually had that open in another tab already.
16:50:50 <elliott> they were in the type system
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16:53:32 <oerjan> theory: oleg is an FAI which has uploaded us all into its type system
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17:05:41 <Vorpal> <oerjan> http://okmij.org/ftp/ don't say i didn't warn you <-- that url reminds me, I had a dream tonight, where someone insisted on that "ftp" was an acronym for "friendly teleport protocol"
17:08:04 <crystal-cola> The reason reddit is so good is because they rewrote their program from lisp to python
17:08:31 <oerjan> this friendly teleport protocol is very reliable, consistently teleporting at least 90% of your body
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17:09:44 <Vorpal> oerjan, the only issue with the usual teleport devices is that they are not reliable in the presence of plot devices.
17:09:48 <oerjan> crystal-cola: if a random person said that sentence in that way i would consider them trolling
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17:41:03 <elliott> ais523: anyway, ZEPTO has no special forms.
17:41:07 <elliott> well, it does, but all it has is special forms.
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17:53:43 <Vorpal> elliott, how could a language have no special forms?
17:53:55 <elliott> By only having primitives.
17:54:02 <elliott> And not evaluating arguments by default
17:54:16 <elliott> i.e. quote is implemented like you'd implement "id".
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17:54:25 <elliott> And there's a function layer implemented on top, that evaluates all the arguments before passing them.
17:54:37 <Vorpal> elliott, then how would you force evaluation?
17:54:56 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't eval then a special form?
17:55:16 <elliott> Technically it evaluates its argument twice.
17:55:23 <elliott> But only because everything evaluates its argument one less time than normal.
17:55:31 <elliott> (define (id x) (eval x)) (id (+ 9 9)) -> a number I can't type
17:55:45 <elliott> (define (quote x) x) (id (+ 9 9)) -> (+ 9 9)
17:55:56 <elliott> Except that "define" would actually be a different name.
17:56:04 <elliott> Because the normal definition mechanism would automatically add argument-evaluation code in.
17:56:13 <Vorpal> elliott, define is surely a special form?
17:56:25 <elliott> Like I said, ARGUMENTS ARE NOT EVALUATED BY DEFAULT
17:56:33 <elliott> That is the same as normal-Lisp (define '(quote x) 'x).
17:56:44 <elliott> You need PRIMITIVES, but no special forms.
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17:57:09 <Vorpal> elliott, so eval and define would be primitives?
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18:27:53 <Guest8478> http://i.imgur.com/IDxMq.png <-- my 77-byte interpreter: Totally portable :P
18:28:15 <elliott> Guest8478: But did you use OpenWatcom to compile it????
18:28:22 -!- Guest8478 has changed nick to Gregor.
18:28:37 <elliott> Use the kind of Watcom that actually runs on DOS :P
18:28:40 <Gregor> And it's a .COM file :P
18:28:42 <elliott> And also install real DOS (Yes, you can do that in DOSBox).
18:28:47 <Gregor> OpenWatcom runs on DOS, it just doesn't have an installer.
18:28:56 <elliott> OK but it doesn't count because that isn't real DOS.
18:28:59 <Gregor> Of course you can do that in DOSBox, it's just pointlessly painful.
18:29:13 <elliott> It's just like using qemu though :P
18:29:27 <Gregor> Except that `dosbox .` = awesomesauce :P
18:29:34 <Gregor> THE POINT IS MY 77-BYTE INTERPRETER WORKS ON 16-BIT DOS :P
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18:34:41 <Vorpal> elliott, hm is openwatcom any good?
18:37:41 <Vorpal> elliott, was that a remark about how I spelled it or was it a remark intended to convey that it is in some way unique/weird/special?
18:38:18 <elliott> Gregor has used it, I haven't (well, I did once, in Windows Ninety-Five.)
18:39:14 <Gregor> Take a compiler that was tolerable for DOS, then make it run on Windows and even Linux.
18:39:27 <Vorpal> Gregor, does that mean the end results suck?
18:39:48 <Gregor> The results are probably just fine, not as good as GCC of course, but decent.
18:39:55 <Gregor> The interface is just ... classique.
18:40:18 <Vorpal> Gregor, oh, let me guess... it uses / for flags even under *nix?
18:40:19 <elliott> Gregor: They prefer "vintage". Like fine wine.
18:40:52 <Gregor> Vorpal: Actually it went whole-hog to - for flags everywhere (I think it still "legacy" accepts / on non-Unix, but the help text has -s), but e.g. the linker takes a linker script.
18:41:04 <Gregor> wlink system dos file lolsomefile file lolsomeotherfile file wtfareflags
18:41:20 <Vorpal> Gregor, um. The GNU linker also takes linker scripts
18:41:36 <Gregor> Vorpal: ld has flags. It takes linker scripts as SCRIPTS, not arguments :P
18:41:52 <Gregor> See command line above :P
18:42:03 <Gregor> Also, and the 32-bit compiler is wcc386
18:42:11 <Vorpal> Gregor, can you link using GNU ld instead?
18:42:18 <Gregor> Umm, probably? Lemme check.
18:42:37 <Vorpal> Gregor, also, hm, does it support C99 nowdays?
18:43:19 <Gregor> BAHAHAHA AWESOME, observe:
18:43:48 <Gregor> OK, hold a bit then observe :P
18:44:13 <elliott> 07:26:18: -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Something Russia is famous for: Russians.).
18:44:14 <Gregor> interp: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (GNU/Linux), statically linked, not stripped
18:44:51 <elliott> So it's... as bad as gcc, except it uses a reasonable output filename :P
18:45:01 <Gregor> elliott: ... it's the FORMAT you're supposed to be looking at.
18:45:47 <Gregor> It's not an ELF .o (which doesn't REALLY matter, but is pretty lols), and it's not even a 32-bit format (presumably?) :P
18:46:01 <Gregor> So long story short: No, you cannot use GNU ld :P
18:46:11 <Vorpal> Gregor, um to gcc you need to give -c to get object files out
18:46:21 <Gregor> Vorpal: This is not GCC, now is it.
18:46:35 <Vorpal> Gregor, so presumably there is some other flag for it?
18:46:53 <Gregor> Vorpal: The compiler is just a compiler, not a compiler frontend.
18:47:23 <Gregor> (It also includes "owcc" as a compiler frontend, but that's new)
18:47:30 <elliott> <Gregor> It's not an ELF .o (which doesn't REALLY matter, but is pretty lols), and it's not even a 32-bit format (presumably?) :P
18:47:31 <elliott> <Gregor> interp: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (GNU/Linux), statically linked, not stripped
18:47:40 <elliott> Looks like a thirty-two bit ELF executable to me?
18:47:46 <elliott> Are you SURE it's not the final binary? :P
18:47:52 <Gregor> I'M - TALKING - ABOUT - THE - .o - FORMAT - YOU - DIPSHIT
18:47:54 <elliott> It has the CPU exactly right.
18:48:17 <Gregor> Obviously it figures out the final format, or it wouldn't even run >_<
18:48:18 <Vorpal> what a strange .o format though
18:48:34 <Vorpal> Gregor, is that .o actually not an executable binary?
18:48:47 <Gregor> OK, I give up on you people.
18:49:59 <elliott> Gregor: at least I give up after one try
18:50:06 <elliott> Vorpal just asks without reading first
18:50:49 <Gregor> Long story short: Open Watcom is the screwiest compiler you can get to run on a modern system without too much difficulty :P
18:50:53 <Vorpal> Gregor, I meant as in "did you try it"?
18:51:27 <Gregor> Vorpal: Are you kidding me? Even if "relocatable" didn't mean "relocatable object file", my kernel wouldn't know how to load it.
18:51:33 <Vorpal> Gregor, BECAUSE it seems so absurd to make the object file format use the flags in the ELF headers so it looks like an executable
18:52:08 <Vorpal> well. It is a damn strange object file, that is my point
18:52:30 <Gregor> That was my point, but you seem to think it's substantially more strange than it is :P
18:53:23 <Gregor> One of my lines didn't go through :P
18:53:29 <elliott> Gregor: That _was_ teh point?
18:53:36 <elliott> OK, I didn't realise it wasn't actually the output binary.
18:53:50 <Gregor> elliott: I didn't get that with the [lolsymbol]s :P
18:54:08 <Gregor> interp.o: 8086 relocatable (Microsoft)
18:54:19 <Vorpal> Gregor, okay *that* explains everything
18:54:28 <Vorpal> I wonder why that line got lost
18:54:31 <Gregor> My apologies for Freenode going "haw I'mma eat that line now"
18:54:34 <Vorpal> <elliott> [dollar] file foo.o
18:54:34 <Vorpal> <elliott> [dollar] file a.out
18:54:45 <Gregor> <Gregor> elliott: I didn't get that with the [lolsymbol]s :P
18:55:09 <Gregor> <elliott> let's talk entirely by quoting each other 8D
18:55:30 <elliott> <Gregor> I'm secretly gay for Vorpal.
18:55:34 <elliott> another line dropped by freenode
18:56:11 <Gregor> <elliott> I'm secretly straight for (female) red slime mold
18:56:27 <elliott> Well, they /are/ delicious.
18:56:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, iirc they have more than two genders?
18:58:43 <elliott> And that is why they are so delicious.
18:58:47 <elliott> HERE I AM MAKING A NETHACK REFERENCE
18:58:51 <elliott> AND EVERYONE IS ALL ASEXUALLYING ME
18:59:23 <Gregor> elliott: You're the one fucking slime molds.
18:59:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "They begin life as amoeba-like cells. These unicellular amoebae are commonly haploid and multiply if they encounter their favorite food, bacteria. These amoebae can mate if they encounter the correct mating type and form zygotes which then grow into plasmodia. [...]"
18:59:45 <Vorpal> I'm not sure what that counts as
19:00:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, they reproduce asexually as well as far as I understand
19:02:21 <elliott> Someone please confirm to me that seahorses can in fact impregnate themselves.
19:03:45 <lament> slime molds are so cool
19:03:52 <lament> macroscopic, but single-cell
19:05:39 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2CA0UE6yRQ ;; downright pornographic to Gregor
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19:29:31 <Vorpal> is there any easy way to convert a wavelength in the spectrum (at a given intensity) to a value in sRGB (or the closest approximation if it falls outside sRGB)
19:29:57 <Vorpal> it doesn't have to be perfect, it only has to be good enough to look reasonable
19:30:36 <elliott> that sounds like a hard problem tm
19:30:50 <Vorpal> elliott, hm I suspected that
19:32:33 <Vorpal> elliott, one way would be to use an image of a spectrum as a lookup table. And for the use I have in mind, the intensity can be fixed in advance
19:32:42 <oerjan> you'd think there'd be a table somewhere
19:33:15 <Vorpal> (and interpolate in between values in your lookup table)
19:34:13 <Vorpal> oh google seems to indicate you can do it as a matrix multiplication
19:34:46 <Vorpal> doesn't explain how you go from wavelength to xyz
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19:38:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, CIE XYZ colour space yes
19:38:55 <Vorpal> anyway found an article on it
19:38:59 <Vorpal> looks rather complicated
19:39:15 <elliott> Vorpal: So basically it only explains an algorithm for CIE XYZ to sRGB, which has nothing to do with wavelength to anything :P
19:39:34 <cheater99> Vorpal: also, i have finally figured out what your nick means. it's a mutilation of Voralp, which is the general area where bavaria is located.
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19:39:40 <Vorpal> elliott, except wavelength -> XYZ seems to be the first step
19:39:47 <Vorpal> elliott, I found an article that explains the full thing
19:39:59 <elliott> xyz = wavelength_to_xyz(wl); // implementation left as an exercise to the reader
19:40:10 <Vorpal> elliott, the first article was like that yes
19:40:39 <cheater99> Vorpal: what ever you're doing with color, you'll probably need color space compression
19:40:43 <Vorpal> anyway, I'm not sure I require the full thing. For what I wanted this seems like WAAAY overkill
19:41:08 <elliott> Says the author of cfunge.
19:41:11 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIE_1931_color_space#Color_matching_functions
19:42:01 <Vorpal> elliott, All I wanted was to use the natural spectrum to colourise datapoints in a graph. It seemed like a good one. More detail than just a red-yellow-green scale or such
19:42:19 <Vorpal> elliott, so yeah, the full blown thing seems like way overkill
19:42:19 <elliott> Overkill is the best kind of kill
19:42:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you can only inject wavelength into a spectrum.
19:42:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I think you mean "there is no kill like overkill"?
19:42:40 <oerjan> you realise that almost _all_ natural spectral colors are outside of rgb, right? :D
19:42:41 <Vorpal> (tvtropes made that up, not me)
19:43:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm yes? I know it doesn't give intensity
19:43:34 <Gregor> I saw "color matching function" and thought "who's on my TURF?"
19:43:42 <Vorpal> oerjan, as long as it looks plausible. Doesn't have to be fully accurate.
19:44:03 <Vorpal> oerjan, but good enough that you would say "oh, that looks like a spectrum"
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19:48:35 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, it seems quite straightforward (though tedious): http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/specrend/
19:48:55 <elliott> IS THERE ANYTHING THAT JOHN WALKER HASN'T GOT HIS GRUBBY MITTS IN
19:49:17 <elliott> Original author of AutoCAD, owner of a way too big website.
19:49:42 <elliott> As well as SO MUCH OTHER SHIT
19:49:42 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean http://www.fourmilab.ch/ ? Yeah it seems rather comprehensive.
19:50:32 <Vorpal> elliott, oh, a random number service
19:50:37 -!- Slereah has joined.
19:50:54 <elliott> Vorpal: More relevantly, the first true RNG on the internet.
19:50:57 <elliott> Except maybe that lava lamp-based one.
19:51:08 <elliott> LavaRnd is only two thousand.
19:51:13 <elliott> Yeah, hotbits is the oldes.
19:51:48 * Gregor continues to lol at the numberlessness.
19:51:54 <Gregor> I'm surprised you didn't type one99six
19:52:35 <elliott> Like BEFORE THEY INVENTED DIGITS
19:52:47 <Vorpal> elliott, hm where does lava lamps come into lavarnd?
19:53:41 <elliott> BTW: LavaRndtm does not use LAVA LITE ® lamps. LAVA LITE lamps were used in SGI classic lavarandtm. See the difference between SGI classic lavarand and our LavaRnd for details. For information on what LavaRnd does use, see the LavaRnd process in detail.
19:53:58 <elliott> Theirs is bullshit because it doesn't actually use lava light.
19:54:12 <elliott> But http://www.lavarnd.org/news/lavadiff.html
19:54:22 <elliott> From 1997 through 2001,[2] there was a web site at http://lavarand.sgi.com/ demonstrating the technique. Landon Curt Noll, one of the originators, went on to help develop LavaRnd, which does not use lava lamps. Despite the short life of lavarand.sgi.com, it is often cited as an example of an online random number source.[3][4]
19:54:59 <oerjan> what we need is clearly a random number source using actual _lava_
19:55:40 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to elitist.
19:56:38 <Vorpal> elliott, anwyay, what is your opinion of John Walker?
19:57:01 <Vorpal> elliott, easy to hit keys in wrong order
20:01:31 <ais523> elliott: gah, Have I Got News For You just put up a subtitle-like thing at the bottom of the screen saying "#HIGNFY", without elaboration
20:01:42 <ais523> and it seems very likely to refer to Twitter
20:01:59 <ais523> which means that Twitter have successively captured the # followed by letters notation in the public imagination
20:02:27 <Vorpal> why do we use sRGB still. It is so limited. Something significantly larger should be easily possible with modern monitor technology.
20:03:10 <Vorpal> ais523, I would assume IRC channel
20:03:30 <ais523> Vorpal: without a server specified?
20:03:36 <ais523> I mean, on here it'd be obvious
20:03:45 <ais523> but on a TV program, there's no reason to guess any IRC server over any other
20:03:46 <Vorpal> ais523, yeah it's strange.
20:03:55 <Vorpal> wait, it was a TV program?
20:04:09 <ais523> is, in fact, it's on at the moment
20:04:16 <elliott> lol at HIGNFY having an IRC channel
20:04:26 <Vorpal> ais523, is it some news program or?
20:04:32 <elliott> It is totally a news program.
20:04:37 <elliott> It has people talking about the news.
20:04:48 <Vorpal> elliott, so, meta-news?
20:04:52 <oerjan> that settles it, then.
20:04:55 <elliott> Yes. Exactly. You have it exactly right.
20:05:00 <elliott> thats all there is to say on the matter
20:05:12 <Vorpal> based on what you said, I googled it
20:06:22 <oerjan> Nytt på nytt er et norsk TV-program, og er en norsk versjon av det britiske satireprogrammet Have I Got News for You, [...]
20:07:04 <elliott> wow norwegian is just like a bad version of english
20:07:15 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/Nyttpaanytt.jpg
20:07:31 <elliott> i like how they only have like three scraps of newspaper there as opposed to the hundreds in HIGNFY
20:07:58 <elliott> oerjan: google translate detected "sier du det" as swedish
20:08:01 <elliott> apparently it means "you finance it"
20:08:11 <elliott> "Fabric of the program is delivered partly by members of the author quartet The rocking Seismologists ."
20:08:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I see none: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HIGNFY_set_empty.jpg
20:08:15 <elliott> that is the best band name ever
20:08:32 <oerjan> `translatefromto sv en sier
20:08:34 <elliott> Vorpal: They make up the letters, I think. Or, what, that looks wrong. Whatever.
20:08:38 <elliott> oerjan: THE ROCKING SEISMOLOGISTS
20:08:52 <Vorpal> <oerjan> `translatefromto sv en sier <-- what
20:08:59 <Vorpal> oerjan, "sier" is not Swedish
20:09:00 <oerjan> Vorpal: is that actually correctly translated? O_O
20:09:48 -!- elitist has changed nick to copumpkin.
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20:10:09 <Vorpal> oerjan, nope, not in SAOL
20:10:30 <Vorpal> oerjan, what language is it really?
20:11:47 <Gregor> "no en sier" => "no one says" <trollface/>
20:12:00 <Gregor> `translatefromto no en sier
20:12:06 <elliott> <Gregor> "no en sier" => "no one says" <trollface/>
20:12:10 <elliott> Oh man I was wondering wtf was going on X-D
20:12:20 <elliott> Gah why didn't I add translatefrom.
20:12:27 <Gregor> `file bin/translatefrom
20:12:28 <HackEgo> bin/translatefrom: ERROR: cannot open `bin/translatefrom' (No such file or directory)
20:12:36 <Ilari> APNIC (IPv6 1x/32): /32 to Australia.
20:12:37 <Vorpal> oerjan, for Swedish "says" would be "säger"
20:13:21 <oerjan> also the "rocking" there has nothing to do with rocks, it means the movement
20:14:05 <elliott> oerjan: I don't care. Best name.
20:14:07 <Vorpal> oerjan, so it has nothing to do with music either?
20:14:14 <elliott> oerjan: What's a better translation of the name?
20:14:39 <elliott> Because, you know, The Rocking Seismologists is the best band name in English, maybe it's boring in Norwegian.
20:15:10 <oerjan> except neither is quite precise
20:15:21 <Vorpal> oerjan, what is the Norwegian word?
20:15:28 <elliott> The Shivering Seismologists?
20:15:41 <elliott> is it like shaking in fear
20:15:41 <ais523> coppro: there are opinion polls coming out on the alternative vote vote here in the UK; they seem to be massively in favour of first-past-the-post, unfortunately
20:15:54 <elliott> ais523: the FUD is in full swing
20:15:58 <Vorpal> elliott, no, "rocking" as in a rocking boat would
20:16:06 <ais523> at least, that's what all the journalists are saying; they aren't giving the actual results, though
20:16:09 <Vorpal> at least gunga in Swedish has that meaning
20:16:37 <oerjan> yeah that's it, it's just rocking has the music connotation which gyngende doesn't
20:16:51 <Vorpal> ais523, so... people don't want the voting system to change?
20:16:58 <elliott> How on earth is that "wtf"
20:17:11 <elliott> Most people don't have a problem with it, and it's easy to FUD
20:17:26 <elliott> Imagine AV being proposed in the US :P
20:17:26 <ais523> coppro: the real problem is that the Liberal Democrats really want STV, rather than AV
20:17:34 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, HIGNFY is on, and they have a Tory MP who's FUDing.
20:17:36 <coppro> but they should just take AV
20:17:37 <Vorpal> elliott, AV? Audio Video?
20:17:38 <oerjan> <elliott> BUDGET <-- strangely it is one of norway's most popular tv shows, but of course that doesn't mean they need to waste money...
20:17:39 <ais523> and so they aren't trying too hard to push it
20:17:41 <coppro> and campaign hard for it
20:17:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: BUT THEY HAVE A TWITTER HASH MARK
20:17:44 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: you're watching it too?
20:17:47 <coppro> if they don't get AV they won't get STV
20:17:48 <elliott> coppro: everybody hates the lib dems
20:17:51 <ais523> I'm not watching it deliberately, but someone else in the room is
20:17:52 <elliott> coppro: they should probably just shut up
20:18:00 <elliott> ais523: HIGNFY is awesome.
20:18:12 <ais523> coppro: I suspect they're going on the basis that if AV passes, they'll never be able to persuade anyone to change the voting system /again/
20:18:22 <Vorpal> coppro, what would STV be?
20:18:29 <coppro> Vorpal: single transferable
20:18:34 <ais523> AV is a special case of STV where you only elect one person
20:18:39 <oerjan> elliott: oh and the "fabric" is a rather bad translation of "stoff" in this case
20:18:45 <coppro> ais523: yeah, but if it doesn't pass, how are they going to get to STV if people rejected AV?
20:18:45 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, she's saying "with AV there'll be a coalition EVERY SINGLE TIME!"
20:18:53 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I like how that makes no sense at all.
20:19:02 <elliott> coppro: they should clearly switch to my totally-untested Recursive Condorcet method
20:19:24 <coppro> describe moar so I may steal the idea and write a paper
20:19:29 <Vorpal> elliott, huh. I thought you were a fan of stochastic?
20:19:36 <elliott> Vorpal: I am, but that has even less of a chance ;D
20:19:37 <Gregor> http://www.theonion.com/articles/a,20076/ "... it is also fine to masturbate to the mentally challengeda reversal of previous guidelines and an affirmation that all persons may provide erotic inspiration, regardless of cognitive capacity."
20:19:42 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, and then she went for "3 countries use AV, the rest use FPTP and get along fine."
20:19:58 <elliott> coppro: Condorcet is basically mathematically perfect apart from the fact that it sometimes fails to give a result.
20:20:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Whereupon Hislop responded "Most of the world is starving, that's a pretty good argument for not eating."
20:20:11 <elliott> coppro: So, here's the SILLY ALGORITHM:
20:20:34 <elliott> coppro: Run any Condorcet method. If it gives a result, we're done. Otherwise,
20:20:43 <ais523> elliott: you mean "the Condorcet method"
20:20:46 <coppro> elliott: define "any" Condorcet method
20:20:53 <ais523> there is only the one if you fail when it doesn't give a result
20:21:04 <ais523> as the only difference between Condorcet-based methods is the tiebreak rules
20:21:11 <elliott> coppro: Run any Condorcet method. If it gives a result, we're done. Otherwise,
20:21:17 <oerjan> elliott: in your quote above
20:21:22 <elliott> Rank every (ranking,candidate) pair by the sum of all their rankings.
20:21:38 <elliott> As in, a candidate sorts higher than another if the sum of all the rankings given to them is greater than the other's.
20:21:50 <elliott> Pick the last element of the resulting list, i.e. the least popular candidate by that criterion.
20:21:58 <elliott> Say they are called "rubbish".
20:22:11 <ais523> elliott: there might not be one, though
20:22:15 <elliott> Replace every pair (ranking,rubbish) with (ranking,almostrubbish), where almostrubbish is the second-last element of that list.
20:22:21 <elliott> ais523: you mean there could be multiple, or what?
20:22:26 <ais523> the resulting list almost certainly won't be unique, and may well not even be well-founded
20:22:40 <elliott> ais523: you're doing that stupid thing again
20:22:45 <elliott> where you assume I mean the result of the Condorcet process somehow
20:22:50 <elliott> when I'm just talking about the raw rankings given in the input
20:23:09 <ais523> so if I mark candidates 1, 3, 5, 7, my vote has more of an influence than if I mark them 1, 2, 3, 4?
20:23:22 <Vorpal> elliott, what if there are three persons being voted for and everyone get exactly 1/3rd of the votes say?
20:23:33 <elliott> ais523: Well, OK, yes, flatten everything before doing it.
20:23:34 <ais523> you're adding together rankings, right?
20:23:36 <elliott> By flatten I mean linearise.
20:23:48 <coppro> elliott: please write out a formal description of the algorithm
20:24:04 <elliott> <elliott> coppro: Run any Condorcet method. If it gives a result, we're done. Otherwise,
20:24:05 <elliott> <elliott> Rank every (ranking,candidate) pair by the sum of all their rankings.
20:24:05 <elliott> <elliott> As in, a candidate sorts higher than another if the sum of all the rankings given to them is greater than the other's.
20:24:06 <elliott> <elliott> Pick the last element of the resulting list, i.e. the least popular candidate by that criterion.
20:24:08 <elliott> <elliott> Say they are called "rubbish".
20:24:10 <elliott> <elliott> Replace every pair (ranking,rubbish) with (ranking,almostrubbish), where almostrubbish is the second-last element of that list.
20:24:23 <elliott> Vorpal: yes it is, it's just not pseudocode
20:24:24 <Gregor> Isn't instant-runoff voting Condorcett-compatible plus fairly practical?
20:24:45 <Vorpal> elliott, still: <Vorpal> elliott, what if there are three persons being voted for and everyone get exactly 1/3rd of the votes say?
20:25:17 <elliott> Vorpal: Then the result of the algorithm is undefined because that never fucking happens.
20:25:24 <elliott> A more reasonable objection is that two people get only one vote each or whatever.
20:25:37 <elliott> In which case you just need to pick one to reassign arbitrarily, it doesn't really matter at all.
20:25:42 <elliott> coppro: Argh, my description is wrong.
20:25:47 <elliott> coppro: Run the Condorcet method.
20:26:04 <Vorpal> elliott, hm. So it doesn't always give results
20:26:06 <elliott> If it fails, then find the least-liked candidate X (where liked is determined by summing with the orders of the rankings, like I explained).
20:26:07 <coppro> I now failed to produce a result
20:26:21 <coppro> What do you mean "summing with the orders of the rankings"
20:26:28 <elliott> I EXPLAINED THAT PERFECTLY LAST TIME
20:26:43 <elliott> GIVEN A CANDIDATE C, CONSIDER ALL VOTES (R,C)
20:26:46 <elliott> SUM ALL THE RS OF THESE VOTES
20:26:50 <elliott> THEN SORT ALL CANDIDATES BY THAT SUM
20:27:04 <elliott> coppro: Now, consider every ballot that has a vote for X.
20:27:22 <elliott> coppro: Then look at their preference one higher.
20:27:29 <elliott> (If it is their top vote, consider their second instead. TOTAL HACK LOL)
20:27:50 <elliott> coppro: Say the one higher preference is (RA,Y) and the preference for X is (RB,X).
20:28:01 <elliott> Reassign the (RB,X) pair to be (RA,X) (yes, causing a duplicate ranking).
20:28:07 <elliott> Once this is done for all candidates that voted for X, re-run the algorithm.
20:28:14 <Gregor> 'When one of the first two interpretations is used, the method can be restated as: "Disregard the weakest pairwise defeat until one candidate is unbeaten."' <-- this is minimax, but I thought it was instant-runoff ... now I'm not sure what the distinction is, but this is what I was thinking of.
20:28:35 <elliott> coppro: Apart from the hack that I noted, it's a pretty good algorithm :P
20:28:55 <elliott> coppro: It basically says "if Condorcet doesn't give a result, reassign all votes for the least-liked candidate".
20:29:22 <Gregor> Oh right, instant-runoff is just straight-up voting amongst the #1s, then remove the worst #1 and repeat.
20:29:27 <Gregor> Yeah, that's totes different, loller.
20:34:09 <Vorpal> hm you can do a completely fair system easily if you don't care about parties or the geographical location of the voters. Just make the whole country one riding. Then tally the votes. Sort candidates by number of votes. Give the most favoured person a place in the parliament and remove him/her from the list. Repeat until the parliament is full.
20:34:46 <Vorpal> the same work for parties if you don't consider individual candidates
20:34:49 <coppro> Vorpal: no, that's not fair
20:34:55 <coppro> Vorpal: strategic voting abounds
20:35:30 <Vorpal> coppro, oh? If there are no parties it works fine, no?
20:36:08 <coppro> what if there is a candidate who I think will be on the edge of getting in
20:36:23 <coppro> my favored candidate is nearly certain to win
20:36:49 <coppro> do I vote for my preferred candidate or try to keep the other guy out of the legislative body?
20:36:50 <Vorpal> well, your favorite candidate surely? If there are just those two that you gave
20:37:05 <Vorpal> coppro, how would you do the latter
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20:37:24 <coppro> Vorpal: by voting someone else to lower the ranking of the guy I hate
20:38:15 <Vorpal> coppro, there is a large risk that won't work though
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20:39:08 <coppro> Vorpal: so? I lose nothing by doing it
20:39:23 <coppro> any voting system where my optimal move is not to vote for my preferred candidate is broken
20:39:26 <Vorpal> coppro, you would if enough people think like you
20:39:47 <Vorpal> coppro, what if nearly everyone who favours that candidate you favored do the same
20:39:57 <elliott> <coppro> any voting system where my optimal move is not to vote for my preferred candidate is broken
20:40:03 <Vorpal> but yes I see the issue
20:40:16 <elliott> Apart from Condorcet, which breaks that as soon as you introduce tiebreakers :P
20:40:24 <Vorpal> elliott, actually straight up "who get the most votes" work if you are electing a single person
20:40:42 <elliott> Vorpal: That is so egregiously wrong that I can't even think of anything to say.
20:40:48 <coppro> elliott: Some voting systems are less broken than others
20:41:02 <elliott> coppro: Four votes good, two votes bad.
20:41:07 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, so what about presidential elections, what is a fair voting system there?
20:41:19 <elliott> Vorpal: I'm sorry, but if you'll excuse me, I am busy gawping.
20:41:24 <elliott> It is an intensive process.
20:41:26 <coppro> Vorpal: see Arrow's Theorem
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20:53:35 <elliott> hmm, can mmap be used to align allocations to four bytes?
20:55:13 <Vorpal> elliott, anonymous mapping?
20:55:24 <Vorpal> elliott, I think it will be aligned to a page in memory
20:55:31 <elliott> Right. Which is annoying, because these allocations will be small.
20:55:33 <Vorpal> not sure if that is guaranteed
20:55:38 <elliott> Gigantic heap allocation with copying GC it is.
20:56:04 <elliott> "mark-and-don't-sweep" Best GC style ever.
20:56:25 <Vorpal> elliott, building a freelist?
20:56:35 <Vorpal> elliott, doesn't glibc malloc() align to 8 bytes?
20:56:40 <elliott> A mark and don't sweep garbage collector, like the mark-and-sweep, maintains a bit with each object to record whether it is white or black; the gray set is either maintained as a separate list (such as the process stack) or using another bit. There are two key differences here. First, black and white mean different things than they do in the mark and sweep collector. In a "mark and don't sweep" system, all reachable objects are always black. An o
20:56:40 <elliott> bject is marked black at the time it is allocated, and it will stay black even if it becomes unreachable. A white object is unused memory and may be allocated. Second, the interpretation of the black/white bit can change. Initially, the black/white bit may have the sense of (0=white, 1=black). If an allocation operation ever fails to find any available (white) memory, that means all objects are marked used (black). The sense of the black/white bi
20:56:40 <elliott> t is then inverted (for example, 0=black, 1=white). Everything becomes white. This momentarily breaks the invariant that reachable objects are black, but a full marking phase follows immediately, to mark them black again. Once this is done, all unreachable memory is white. No "sweep" phase is necessary.
20:56:44 <Vorpal> of course it has a few bytes of overhead
20:56:44 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, doesn't glibc malloc() align to 8 bytes?
20:56:50 <elliott> I need the bottom three bits to be zero.
20:56:58 <elliott> So I need to align to eight, actually.
20:57:06 <Vorpal> elliott, posix_memalign,
20:58:26 <elliott> Maintaining my own heap == ten times the fun.
20:58:41 <Vorpal> elliott, why is memalign so gross?
20:58:59 <elliott> And it's in the fucking "ADVANCED REALTIME" section.
20:59:07 <elliott> "The posix_memalign() function is part of the Advisory Information option and need not be provided on all implementations."
21:00:54 <elliott> "Such a tangled web. It is a web full of flaming irons and mixed metaphors."
21:00:58 <Vorpal> elliott, valloc, it has the most complicated description in the man page of what defines make the prototype visible
21:01:20 <Vorpal> (_XOPEN_SOURCE >= 500 ||
21:01:20 <Vorpal> _XOPEN_SOURCE && _XOPEN_SOURCE_EXTENDED) &&
21:01:20 <Vorpal> !(_POSIX_C_SOURCE >= 200112L || _XOPEN_SOURCE >= 600)
21:09:47 <elliott> spot the mistake that gave me a "duplicate case" error
21:10:26 <monqy> mmm nice going there
21:11:00 <Gregor> Every time I've needed aligned memory I've done it with mmap of double then munmap twice :P
21:11:55 <elliott> Gregor: How does that even make any sense.
21:12:00 <Vorpal> elliott, oh, so writing another lisp?
21:12:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Just porting Zepto from Python to C.
21:12:16 <elliott> It is a stupidly simple language, so this will not be difficult.
21:12:27 <Gregor> elliott: If you mmap (size you need + alignment) you're guaranteed to have the aligned area within the allocated space.
21:12:44 <Gregor> Since every situation I've ended up needing this has involved alignment to the size I need, I just allocate double.
21:13:01 <Vorpal> Gregor, why munmap at all?
21:13:35 <elliott> Oh, allocate double... Hmm.
21:13:38 <Gregor> ................. munmap can unmap a partial range, free can't ................ also wtf, malloc() for huge spaces = retarded.
21:13:43 <elliott> Gregor: Does that even make sense though???
21:13:48 <elliott> I didn't realise you could violate page-alignment like that.
21:13:59 <elliott> That seems to Defeat the Point.
21:14:06 <Gregor> elliott: I never use it to violate page alignment, size-I-need is always a power of 2.
21:14:08 <Vorpal> Gregor, anyway, mmap will only allocate on a previously unused page
21:14:24 <elliott> Gregor: Maybe I am misunderstanding page alignment.
21:14:26 <Vorpal> Gregor, so if your allocation is less than a page large it is rather wasteful
21:14:31 <elliott> Won't that be stupidly fragmented for shitloads of small allocations?
21:14:48 <Gregor> This is what I use when I need /HUGE/ spaces.
21:14:53 <Vorpal> elliott, it would be absurdly stupid for your case
21:15:57 <elliott> Hmm, yay, I think I can do a copying GC without going over every object twice, but it involves maintaining a huge stack :P
21:16:45 <Vorpal> Gregor, why would you ever need alignment when doing huge stuff that doesn't start at a page boundary?
21:16:52 <Vorpal> or that starts at something larger than a page boundary
21:17:55 <Gregor> Vorpal: Because I want the beginning to have all the lower bits be zero.
21:17:59 <Gregor> So I can always get to the beginning with a mask.
21:18:13 <Gregor> This == supafast GC pools.
21:18:27 <elliott> Gregor: Not as supafast as the Zepto Silly Allocation SystemXXX
21:18:34 <elliott> I should make it ZEST somehow.
21:18:41 <elliott> Zepto Egregiously Silly Tallocationsystem.
21:19:04 <oerjan> zepto zeriouzly zilly zallocationzyztem
21:19:16 <Gregor> The non-native-English-speaker-professors are considering renaming the lab I'm in from SSS (Secure Software Systems (???)) to The CLAP (Compilers and Languages At Purdue)
21:20:22 <elliott> Compiler-Understanding Native Teleologists
21:21:50 <Gregor> Vorpal: Because we have nothing whatsoever to do with security.
21:21:52 <elliott> Because the current name is creeper.
21:21:57 <Gregor> Vorpal: The expansion is a much better name :P
21:22:11 <elliott> Gregor: Call it the CALAP in protest.
21:22:12 <Vorpal> Gregor, then why specifically non-native speakers?
21:22:23 <elliott> Gonorrhea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
21:22:24 <elliott> Gonorrhea (also colloquially known as the clap) is a common sexually transmitted infection caused by the bacterium Neisseria gonorrhoeae. ...
21:22:24 <oerjan> incidentally the university here in town has the english name Norwegian University of Science and Technology. apparently there was a hasty reordering involved.
21:22:28 <Gregor> Vorpal: By not knowing the issue, you're proving my point about non-native speakers :P
21:22:38 <elliott> Gregor: Might that be an Americanism :P
21:22:41 <Vorpal> elliott, you know, you can "clap your hands"
21:22:47 <Gregor> elliott: Oh? I thought it was all Englishes.
21:22:49 <Vorpal> elliott, that was what I thought of
21:23:14 <oerjan> (also the computer nvg club had nuts.edu registered for a while)
21:23:17 <elliott> Gregor: Well, I've never heard about it, but I don't really talk about gonorrhea :P
21:27:19 <elliott> You know what sucks? Hash tables.
21:27:32 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:27:33 <elliott> I AM GOING TO USE LINKED LISTS INSTEAD
21:28:32 <oerjan> no use a sorted array, then you can use binary search
21:28:37 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I AM SORRY ARE HASH TABLES NOT THE BEST OF THE MUNDANE FETCH MODI
21:28:52 <Vorpal> elliott, try an self-balancing binary tree?
21:29:00 <Vorpal> elliott, an AVL tree is dead-easy to implement
21:29:39 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:29:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Too many algorithms.
21:29:48 <elliott> LINKED LISTS ARE THE BEST.
21:29:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, but that's not a particularly interesting fetch modus.
21:30:52 <Vorpal> elliott, what? You mean, too many variants to choose from?
21:31:04 <Vorpal> elliott, go for AVL tree, it is a good general purpose one
21:31:14 <Vorpal> elliott, dude, I have done an AVL tree in C in half an hour...
21:31:34 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. All the codes are required for an AVL tree.
21:31:59 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway want my AVL tree implementation? It just does the basics, leave allocation and so on to the application
21:32:55 <Vorpal> elliott, it has tiny overhead thus. you define a struct that starts with the tree node header struct.
21:33:27 <Vorpal> elliott, what are you using it for
21:33:40 <elliott> WHICH I REFUSE TO IMPLEMENT WITH A HASH TABLE
21:33:53 <elliott> This is Zepto, performance is irrelevant, all that matters is some sort of vaguely-defined sense of aesthetics based around being slow.
21:34:11 <Vorpal> you... implement a hash table with a linked list?
21:35:51 <zzo38> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tsumeshogi-classic.svg I invented a ASCII notation for tsumeshogi that one on Wikipedia would use the notation: 3H.3hzh1.4C1.1L
21:36:51 <zzo38> (B=foot soldier, D=fragrance chariot, F=honor horse, H=silver general, J=gold general, L=angle mover, N=flying chariot, Z=king; use next letter of alphabet for promotion)
21:36:54 -!- elliott_ has joined.
21:37:14 <zzo38> Oops I made a mistake. It should be: 3H.3hzh1.4C1.1M
21:37:22 <elliott_> can someone ghost elliott for me
21:37:31 -!- elliott has quit (Disconnected by services).
21:37:35 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott.
21:37:39 -!- elliott has quit (Changing host).
21:37:40 -!- elliott has joined.
21:37:43 <Vorpal> <elliott_> can someone ghost elliott for me
21:37:43 <Vorpal> <elliott_> i can't type its password
21:37:54 <Vorpal> who would know your password except you
21:37:57 <elliott> * elliott has quit (Disconnected by services)
21:38:13 <Vorpal> elliott, didn't you do it?
21:38:16 <zzo38> How can you your normal account without password?
21:38:26 <elliott> Vorpal: how could I? I can't type my password.
21:38:32 <Vorpal> zzo38, missing a verb?
21:38:38 <elliott> zzo38: Ubuntu automatically logs in by default. also, you accidentally a verb.
21:38:39 <Vorpal> elliott, copy and paste
21:38:52 <elliott> i'm not so insecure as to store my password on disk
21:39:31 <Vorpal> <elliott> zzo38: Ubuntu automatically logs in by default. also, you accidentally a verb. <elliott> i'm not so insecure as to store my password on disk
21:39:50 <elliott> your insult is unacceptable
21:40:01 <elliott> nobody else has this computer apart from me!
21:40:06 <zzo38> What opinion about this kind of tsumeshogi notation? Is there anything you think wrong?
21:40:37 <Vorpal> -elliott- VERSION xchat 2.8.8 Ubuntu <-- look in ~/.xchat/_servlist.conf or some such file for it. ls ~/.xchat*/*serv* should find it anyway
21:40:57 <elliott> don't be silly, i don't use my account password for irc
21:41:25 <Vorpal> elliott, who said you did
21:41:29 <Vorpal> + [elliott] is logged in as elliott
21:41:44 <elliott> yes, my client does that automatically.
21:41:57 <Vorpal> elliott, and that is where it stores the password
21:42:06 <Vorpal> elliott, which is the relevant password for ghosting
21:42:16 <elliott> As we have already gone over, someone else ghosted it, not me.
21:42:19 <Vorpal> oh wait, you meant the system password
21:42:33 <Vorpal> elliott, shouldn't you urgently change the password then
21:43:06 <elliott> Why? Because someone was kind?
21:43:22 <elliott> Gregor: Oh man, interior pointers -- the best kind??
21:43:37 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> i'm not so insecure as to store my password on disk
21:43:44 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway, iirc you can ghost as long as you are logged in to the account. Without using the password I mean
21:44:16 <elliott> Vorpal: But elliott_ isn't linked.
21:44:27 <Vorpal> elliott, but actually you don't need that
21:44:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That was total lies, I use my account password for IRC and everything else too. I'm just trolling Vorpal and it seems to be working brilliantly ;D
21:44:44 <elliott> He didn't notice I used an exclamation mark, proving that I had an on-screen keyboard up.
21:44:46 <Vorpal> elliott, if your client does /ns accountname password
21:45:08 <Vorpal> elliott, no I didn't consider that. *shrug*
21:45:21 <elliott> Vorpal: I use the server password "fg9axm6 :elliott".
21:45:38 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:46:12 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not going to test :P
21:46:56 <Vorpal> elliott, and the rest of the channel?
21:47:05 <elliott> We are all nice people here.
21:47:15 <elliott> Except for sshc, but he is GONE FOREVER.
21:47:40 <Vorpal> elliott, and the logs are public
21:48:10 <Vorpal> anyway I know you are not idiotic enough to post your true password
21:49:43 <elliott> Gregor appears NONPLUSSED about INTERIOR POINTERS.
21:51:19 <elliott> http://software-lab.de/doc64/structures I love how unreadable this is.
21:51:46 <elliott> Oh, I see how it's done. Maybe.
21:52:19 <elliott> It's still an interior pointer though FFFUUUUU
21:52:21 <elliott> I wonder how they handle it.
21:54:16 <Vorpal> <elliott> http://software-lab.de/doc64/structures I love how unreadable this is. <-- err, what is it for?
21:54:24 <elliott> Internal structures of PicoLisp that I am copying BUT BETTER.
21:56:23 <elliott> The problem being that NIL has to point to (NIL . NIL), so I have no idea how I can avoid interior pointers.
21:57:58 <pikhq> Interior pointers make the garbage collector sad.
21:59:40 <pikhq> Comes at a cost, of course.
21:59:41 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, why does NIL point to (NIL . NIL)?
22:00:08 <elliott> Vorpal: Because (CAR NIL) => NIL and (CDR NIL) => NIL.
22:00:23 <elliott> As seen in every Lisp apart from Scheme, which does not have NIL.
22:01:29 <Vorpal> elliott, you could special case car and cdr code instead?
22:02:04 <Vorpal> elliott, or you could special case GC handling of NIL
22:02:47 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
22:02:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Disconnected by services).
22:02:59 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
22:14:54 <Vorpal> elliott, why wouldn't it?
22:24:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:35:34 <elliott> "You're the dum8est omniscient person I ever met."
22:35:35 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
22:39:01 -!- TeruFSX2 has joined.
22:43:21 <Vorpal> elliott, well, you could put NIL in a special non-GCed place. Every reference of nil pointing to it
22:43:34 <Vorpal> elliott, then any references to it will point to it
22:43:46 <Vorpal> elliott, no need to track interior pointers inside this nil object
22:43:53 <Vorpal> elliott, what is the issue?
22:44:17 <elliott> Vorpal: What do the interior pointers have to do with NIL?
22:44:37 <Vorpal> <elliott> The problem being that NIL has to point to (NIL . NIL), so I have no idea how I can avoid interior pointers.
22:44:41 -!- TeruFSX2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:44:51 <elliott> Because NIL also has to be a symbol, and symbols have names, and so the string "N I
22:44:58 <elliott> "N I L" must be in there somewhere.
22:45:02 -!- TeruFSX2 has joined.
22:45:09 <Vorpal> elliott, you don't use an atom table?
22:45:23 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
22:45:32 <elliott> That has nothing to do with this.
22:47:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:53:55 <elliott> Vorpal: Or does an atom table (Erlang terminology...) somehow prevent storing symbol names in symbols??
22:54:17 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:54:31 <variable> a naive implementation of war is O(2^N) worst case - right?
22:54:45 * variable wants to make sure my analyses skills are not going bad
22:55:13 <variable> elliott: war, as in the card game
22:55:21 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:57:05 -!- TeruFSX2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:57:12 <elliott> but being surprised when you get punned is forbidden here :D
22:57:29 -!- augur has joined.
22:57:33 <elliott> why, if oerjan was here...
22:57:41 <elliott> "Phil Sophie" -- what Google Translate thinks the German word "Philsophie" is in English
23:03:56 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:05:49 * pikhq wonders at byuu's seeming adoration for including far too many headers...
23:06:23 * variable points pikhq to https://code.google.com/p/include-what-you-use/
23:07:29 <pikhq> In essence, he makes a per-module header file which includes every single thing that anything *in the module* uses, and then each compilation unit includes that.
23:09:00 <elliott> variable: looks C++-specific
23:09:09 <elliott> or at least biased, because it just talks about .cc files, no .c
23:09:18 <pikhq> elliott: Probably C and C++.
23:09:28 <pikhq> It's using clang, after all.
23:09:31 <elliott> pikhq: no such thing, they are completely different languages.
23:09:40 <pikhq> elliott: I *know that*.
23:09:47 <pikhq> elliott: But clang handles both C and C++.
23:09:51 <elliott> since such a program has to do semantic language (are any of these objects or structures used in the including file?),
23:09:55 <elliott> then the C and C++ logic must be separate
23:09:58 <pikhq> elliott: Hence a tool using it for lexical analysis *probably* handles both.
23:10:09 <elliott> lexical analysis isn't the hard part, though :)
23:10:14 <pikhq> (though, of course, not necessarily)
23:10:39 <elliott> by "C and C++" I suspect it means "the subset of C code that has the same semantics when used as C++ code"
23:10:43 <pikhq> "For instance, we only run this on C++ code, not C or Objective C."
23:10:46 <pikhq> I stand corrected.
23:11:13 <pikhq> https://code.google.com/p/include-what-you-use/wiki/InstructionsForUsers
23:11:44 <elliott> "WARNING: include-what-you-use only analyzes .cc (or .cpp) files built by make"
23:11:48 <elliott> i bet they just tested it on one C file
23:11:54 <elliott> and decided that counts as support
23:12:05 <pikhq> Actually, they never say they support c.
23:12:11 <pikhq> .cc is a C++ extension.
23:12:20 <elliott> "A tool for use with clang to analyze #includes in C and C++ source files"
23:12:25 <pikhq> Also, this almost certainly would give up on bsnes's source code...
23:12:26 <elliott> that's the single place they claim it supports C
23:13:18 <elliott> HOW DOES ONE GC WITH INTERNAL POINTERS EVER
23:13:32 <pikhq> Anyways. As it is, I could change a single header and cause a rebuild of the entire tree.
23:13:49 <elliott> pikhq: let's be fair, that applies to every C++ program :)
23:13:52 <pikhq> A large amount of the rebuilding would be unnecessary.
23:14:18 <pikhq> elliott: Okay, true, C++ definitely makes it such that that's a common case.
23:15:00 <pikhq> And byuu doesn't do himself any favors by NIH'ing the STL.
23:15:47 <variable> <elliott> variable: looks C++-specific ---> patch it
23:15:55 -!- Lymia has joined.
23:16:09 <elliott> I neither have endless free time or the patience to deal with maintainers :)
23:16:22 <elliott> OK, I do have endless free time, but it's taken up by all the actually interesting[one] code I'm writing.
23:17:06 <elliott> Its progress is impeded by the fact that it's written in C and I can't produce asterisks.
23:17:13 <elliott> variable: Bargain basement Lisp.
23:17:15 * pikhq isn't even kidding: bsnes is in C++ and never uses the STL.
23:17:40 <Gregor> <elliott> HOW DOES ONE GC WITH INTERNAL POINTERS EVER // I know, right?
23:17:50 <elliott> Gregor: No but seriously how do people do it.
23:17:52 <elliott> IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE TO ME.
23:18:10 <Gregor> Sorry, couldn't tell ya', I honestly don't know myself.
23:18:32 <variable> Gregor: pikhq any thoughts on my question re war: a naive implementation of playing through the game is O(N^2) ?
23:18:37 <elliott> Gregor: BUT MY ARCHITECTURE DEMANDS IT.
23:18:53 <elliott> Gregor: OK technically it doesn't demand an interior pointer, just a pointer to something that has a pointer tacked on one before it.
23:19:00 <Gregor> variable: I don't remember (or care :P ) how that card (?) game works.
23:19:03 <elliott> Which is kind of the same thing except that the interior pointer is aligned, and the tacked-on one isn't.
23:19:48 <Gregor> elliott: I can only guess that they don't allocate over card boundaries, and to figure out the start of an object they go to the start of a card and follow a linked list to the correct object.
23:19:56 <variable> Gregor: I don't care how the card game works per se. I just want to make sure my skills are not going insane ;-|
23:20:02 <elliott> Gregor: Not even using cards bro ;D
23:20:22 <elliott> I'm using the Zepto Bargain Basement Copying Collector And Heap Expander, made by Fly By Wire industries.
23:20:24 <Gregor> elliott: Then s/card/page/ or s/card/pool/ or s/card/whatever-your-allocation-block-thingy-is/
23:20:40 <Gregor> elliott: Just use GGGGC >: )
23:20:43 <elliott> Gregor: But my pool is a jumble of bytes, I have no idea how I could go over it like that :P
23:20:56 <elliott> GGGGC isn't Bargain Basement and it can't align my allocations to eight bytes. Can it?
23:20:59 <Gregor> elliott: Well then to support interior pointers you PROBABLY need a better pool.
23:21:10 <Gregor> elliott: It could be adapted to.
23:21:12 <pikhq> Gregor: The card "game" is essentially an algorithm performed upon two piles of cards.
23:21:20 <elliott> When I traverse, I know the type.
23:21:22 <Gregor> elliott: In fact, it does on 64-bit platforms.
23:21:26 <elliott> So I know when something is a symbol.
23:21:35 <elliott> So I know when something has an object pointer before it.
23:21:41 <pikhq> Gregor: There is literally no nondeterminism in it outside of the initial shuffle.
23:21:45 <variable> pikhq: yeah. many (most?) game theorists will say it is not a game because there is no choice
23:21:49 <elliott> My design is so shitty. I love it.
23:22:21 <variable> Gregor: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/War_(card_game)
23:22:34 * Gregor refuses to read on the grounds that no.
23:23:02 <variable> pikhq: any thoughts on the complexity ?
23:23:15 <pikhq> variable: I could buy O(n^2) worst-case.
23:23:48 <elliott> Gregor: Sweet, if I offer type-tag casting, my whole GC and everything breaks :D
23:23:52 * variable is thinking about how to formally prove it
23:24:33 <pikhq> "If the order the winning cards are placed is fixed it is possible to create an infinite loop wherein neither side will win and the game will not end."
23:24:54 <Gregor> I was just thinking that might be possible.
23:24:57 <pikhq> Seems worst-case is _|_
23:25:05 <elliott> Gregor: What, the breakingness? :P
23:25:13 <variable> pikhq: o.O; lets say random placement
23:25:17 <Gregor> elliott: No, never-ending war (what is it good for?)
23:25:25 <elliott> variable: The RNG is your enemy. Worst case is O(inf).
23:25:27 <Gregor> variable: "Worst case" + "random placement" = you're talkin' bullshit.
23:25:40 <elliott> Gregor: Uh huh!... absolutely INFINITE AMOUNTS OF NOTHING
23:25:49 <variable> Gregor: I didn't even think about that
23:26:35 <Gregor> I imagine, based on nothing whatsoever, that the average case is something around O(nlogn), but it could be as high as O(n^2)
23:26:57 <elliott> #esoteric: where the experts come to bullshit.
23:27:09 <variable> pikhq: strictly speaking I arrived at the question seeing if I could "solve" the game without going through the complete game (given omniscience over the cards)
23:27:27 * variable wonders if that is possible at all
23:27:37 <variable> Gregor: any pointers to start thinking about it?
23:29:45 <Gregor> Twitter would be a lolsy place for submissions to a programming golf tournament :P
23:30:16 <elliott> Using Twitter: So faggy??????
23:30:35 <Gregor> Yeah, it's pretty terrible :P
23:30:41 * elliott immediately tracks down and follows Gregor.
23:30:44 <Gregor> But hey, I HAD to register to spam the Lawson video wall!
23:31:04 <elliott> http://twitter.com/#!/CaptainHats
23:31:14 <elliott> You sort of said it in-channel yesterday.
23:31:28 <elliott> Although presumably you were posting or planning to post on another account, since you found it necessary to give your username.
23:31:45 <elliott> Which would be ridiculous if you were already posting it as CaptainHats, which would be a bad idea because that's a terrible username.
23:32:08 <pikhq> And has insufficient G's.
23:32:39 <Gregor> And my point is I was asking how to tweet a "challenge" with an added "tweet your responses back to me", but in very few characters :P
23:33:04 <elliott> Gregor: Uhh... you don't :P
23:33:19 <elliott> Anyone who doesn't realise to reply to you is too stupid to golf :P
23:33:46 <Gregor> A) The thing is, this goes up on the Lawson video wall, not straight into my hordes of non-followers, B) not golfing
23:34:05 <elliott> (A) OK, so like I said, not delivering it through blah :P
23:34:09 <elliott> (B) Well it should be golfing?
23:34:38 <elliott> http://twitter.com/#!/lawsonwall/followers ;; everyone Gregor knows
23:34:52 <pikhq> Non-followers? You mean that you've got it set up so that you talk to everyone who *doesn't* follow you?
23:35:17 <Gregor> <elliott> (A) OK, so like I said, not delivering it through blah :P // this ... this is not a sentence.
23:35:18 <elliott> Suddenly, Gregor amasses the largest number of followers EVAR
23:35:37 <elliott> Gregor: Your face isn't either but I don't quote it, append the comment characters used in all the worst languages, and snark at it.
23:35:51 <elliott> Gregor's face // Haha, what is this, answer: it is shit
23:36:14 <Gregor> I want to reply to your (A)
23:36:19 <Gregor> Because I have no idea what it says.
23:36:29 <elliott> And if you don't reply, that means I'm right.
23:36:46 <elliott> Gregor: "OK, so like I said, not delivering it through [at]CaptainHats but actually not Twitter at all so aiuhfgjlksdtjhgfdsknfgjdksbvckjcd bvjcknxvb dszjiznvbckxoijfhgziyvws9 x,.v/"
23:36:53 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:37:03 <elliott> Think I hit FireFly by mistake there while I was mashing my keys.
23:37:19 <Gregor> elliott: I deliver it via twitter to the lawson wall (it shows things tagged properly), people respond to me via twitter.
23:38:19 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Q).
23:38:49 <pikhq> Everyone knows the only valid comment sequence is LALAlALALalaTHISIsACOMment{}--///*\n*/##{--}BANGSPLAT
23:39:00 <pikhq> Case-sensitive, of course.
23:39:05 <elliott> That's how I mark all my comments.
23:39:09 <elliott> i++; LALAlALALalaTHISIsACOMment{}--///*\n*/##{--}BANGSPLAT increment i by one
23:39:48 <elliott> pikhq: Terminated by TALPSGNAB}--{##/*\n*///--}{tnemMOCAsISIHTalaLALAlALAL, right?
23:40:05 <elliott> Where the \n THERE is a literal newline.
23:40:18 <pikhq> elliott: No, no, no.
23:40:35 <pikhq> You have to remove the newline to get the comment variant that doesn't go to the end of the line.
23:40:52 <pikhq> But otherwise, you've got the idea.
23:45:00 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:50:54 <pikhq> "The issue presented in this case is whether a resolution banning all 'First Amendment activities' at Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) violates the First Amendment."
23:51:10 <pikhq> Quote from a real Supreme Court case.
23:51:49 <pikhq> For obvious reasons, the court unanimously found that banning all 'First Amendment activities' was a violation of said amendment.
00:03:03 <Gregor> Although I appreciate your humor, that's a little bit less clear than you're making it.
00:03:20 <Gregor> The first amendment applies to the government, not to airports, which are privately-operated businesses.
00:03:26 <Sgeo> So...close... to being able to use PayPal
00:03:38 <Sgeo> Got an AmEx gift card
00:03:47 <Sgeo> PayPal charged a verification thing to it
00:03:56 <Sgeo> But the code won't show up in the description
00:04:05 <Sgeo> Then again, it's still "pending"
00:04:24 <Gregor> Ohwait, I'm totes wrong.
00:04:33 <pikhq> Gregor: Airports actually tend to be owned by the city it
00:04:34 <Gregor> Apparently airports are government-run in the US.
00:05:12 <pikhq> No, I hit enter same time you did. :P
00:05:51 <elliott> Gregor: Privately-owned airports ... with the TSA in them ...
00:06:20 <Gregor> elliott: I didn't say they were unregulated.
00:06:29 <Gregor> elliott: Or even anything less than extremely heavily regulated.
00:22:23 <elliott> Allocation sizes of two to three pointers where the first of the two pointers and the second of the three pointers must be aligned to eight bytes: SO INCONVENIENT
00:22:42 <elliott> There are no such allocations.
00:22:51 <elliott> Just allocations of two pointers where sometimes the first must be aligned and sometimes the second.
00:24:08 <pikhq> Perhaps all allocations should be page-aligned. That'd solve it!
00:25:12 <elliott> pikhq: Actually the allocation is going to be done with the Zepto Basement Bin Copying Collector.
00:25:47 <elliott> pikhq: Basically I don't bother with free lists or any of that shit. I just allocate linearly, then whenever I run out of heap, I do the regular copying-GC trick, keeping objects that reference each other close together sort of.
00:26:12 <pikhq> So, a fairly standard copying GC, then.
00:26:21 <elliott> pikhq: Yeah, except that it's /Basement Bin/.
00:27:22 <elliott> pikhq: Like all of Zepto, it is coded to meet Zepto's weird aesthetic preferences over anything else.
00:27:25 <elliott> Including, e.g. performance.
00:27:29 <Gregor> That it's simultaneously not as fast as GGGGC, and not as featureful as GGGGC.
00:27:36 <elliott> Remember, I'm using a /linked list/ to intern symbols.
00:27:41 <elliott> Because hash tables spoil vibes.
00:27:46 <elliott> Gregor: Yes, but it's also MINE.
00:27:56 <Gregor> And EGGGC sounds terrible :P
00:28:13 <elliott> Generations. What are they for? What is with all this making assumptions about the lifetime of objects.
00:28:17 <elliott> That is making an ass out of u and objects.
00:28:26 <elliott> Zepto makes no asses. It is not an ass factory.
00:28:35 <elliott> It is a programmer happiness factory.
00:29:05 <pikhq> elliott: I presume "Zepto" means "yours"?
00:29:13 <elliott> It is the name of a language.
00:29:14 <pikhq> Gregor: Egg GC sounds awesome. :P
00:29:19 <elliott> It has no "Lisp" prefix because it is awesome.
00:29:30 <elliott> I already have a half-baked implementation of it, but it's in Python.
00:29:35 <elliott> So I'm making an even-more-half-baked version in C.
00:29:55 <pikhq> Quarter-baked, if you will.
00:30:05 <elliott> I'll bake you lot in a quarter if you don't shut up.
00:30:19 -!- zeptobot has joined.
00:30:25 <elliott> zeptobot: Get broken by these mortals.
00:30:25 <pikhq> elliott: How do you bake people in a quarter?
00:30:38 <elliott> (x . x) is how zeptobot feels about people breaking it. So don't do that.
00:30:40 <pikhq> Seems there's no empty space in that coin.
00:31:05 <elliott> : ('(x . (eval x)) 'quote)
00:31:05 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Symbol' object has no attribute 'apply'
00:31:12 <elliott> That is correct behaviour. I think.
00:31:19 <monqy> how does zepto work
00:31:55 <elliott> This is the specification, except for all the parts that are wrong.
00:32:10 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/fTEH This shit is bullshit.
00:32:18 <elliott> But there's no shit like bullshit.
00:35:41 <monqy> it would be nice if I could tell what the specification meant
00:36:13 <monqy> right now I'm trying to figure out how to get exotic errors
00:37:50 <monqy> : (id '(x . x) '(x . x))
00:38:22 <monqy> : (map 99 99 99 99 99 99 99)
00:38:35 <elliott> those are just argcount checks :)
00:38:57 <monqy> : (def 99 99 99 99 99 99 99)
00:40:56 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
00:41:11 <monqy> does it do anything useful
00:41:21 <elliott> you can define things and map things
00:41:54 <elliott> gotta love how little sense that one makes
00:42:22 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Pair' object has no attribute 'bind'
00:42:50 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'bind'
00:42:54 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'bind'
00:42:57 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'bind'
00:43:02 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
00:43:18 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Integer' object has no attribute 'apply'
00:43:35 <elliott> that makes a bit of sense sort of
00:44:04 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'NilClass' object has no attribute 'unbind'
00:44:10 <elliott> realise that that is (x . (x))
00:44:31 <elliott> but x has been rebound to (id 9)
00:45:10 <monqy> how does it manage to rebind itself
00:46:51 <elliott> monqy: because it takes its arguments as x?
00:47:02 <elliott> if the parameter was named something else, it would do something ... still stupid, but not self-destructive
00:47:15 <monqy> oh is that how it works
00:47:29 <elliott> If it can be said to "work" at all.
00:48:04 <pikhq> http://old.nationalreview.com/document/document073001.shtml The court findings in Bradshaw v. Unity Marine. Wherein the court mocks both parties.
00:48:41 <pikhq> "Despite the waste of perfectly good crayon seen in both parties' briefing (and the inexplicable odor of wet dog emanating from such) the Court believes it has satisfactorily resolved this matter."
00:49:19 <monqy> : (map x '(x x x))
00:49:20 <zeptobot> ! AttributeError: 'Pair' object has no attribute 'bind'
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00:57:08 <elliott> Gregor: Oh sweet, to do a copying GC it looks like I have to modify running code.
00:57:16 <elliott> 'cuz it has pointers 'n shit.
00:59:57 <Gregor> wlib's option to create a GNU-style .a library: wlib -fag
01:00:48 <tswett> I see that you're making excellent progress.
01:00:53 <tswett> Carry on the excellent work.
01:00:55 <elliott> On wh- oh yes, that thing.
01:01:08 <elliott> Totally haven't been distracted, yup.
01:01:27 <tswett> I trust that you've bought the server and anything.
01:01:33 <tswett> I trust you so far that I'm not even going to ask anything about it.
01:01:48 <elliott> How convenient. I will continue lazily evaluating the results of such actions. Sorry, what?
01:02:07 <tswett> In fact, I'm not even going to speak. I trust that you will be able to answer all my questions anyway.
01:02:08 <elliott> Let's be fair, ais didn't even respond when I told him about it. The kind of emotional distresss I'm in is a force to be reckoned with.
01:06:40 <oklopol> yeah we get it, you're a famous bisexual
01:09:59 <elliott> you know why oklopol talks so much about famous bisexuals
01:10:04 <elliott> it's because he's famous biphobic
01:12:20 <elliott> man, interning things is such a drag.
01:12:32 <elliott> case T_INTEGER: return (*(obj (*)(obj))f)(a);
01:12:35 <elliott> this is pretty much the best line
01:14:48 <elliott> Gregor: BTW the autoupdate feature of tup was improved after I pointed out its deficiencies and OH MY GOD IT IS SO AWESOME
01:15:02 <elliott> I keep thinking I've not saved my file because I didn't see the compile happen, but it actually just happened instantly.
01:16:44 <Sgeo> Ken Ham and Eliezer Yudkowski agree on something!
01:21:58 * Sgeo apologizes to Yudkowsky
01:23:11 <elliott> Too late, your soul is already doomed.
01:23:48 <elliott> Creating Friendly AI 2 will include the sentence "Of course, a Friendly AI must kill Seth Gold, but how to accomplish this is not clear; I, myself, prefer knives."
01:40:44 * Sgeo facepalms Armwards
01:41:20 <Sgeo> I think we both need palms in our faces
01:43:27 <Sgeo> One of his statements about why my stupid idea is stupid is itself rather stupid.
01:44:17 <pikhq> Gregor: What the pfargtle is wlib?
01:44:34 <Gregor> pikhq: Open Watcom's librarian :P
01:44:53 <elliott> Sgeo: Who the fuck is Armwands?
01:45:07 <elliott> Sweet, I have a Zepto interpreter that can't actually do anything.
01:45:24 <elliott> I should... write a parser? Make the allocator not a steaming heap of shit?
01:45:24 <Sgeo> elliott, Armwards. As in, in Arm's direction
01:45:29 <pikhq> Goodness, Watcom is still developed.
01:45:58 <Gregor> pikhq: It might even compile Fythe X-D
01:45:59 * Sgeo hits elliott with a first base
01:46:09 <elliott> Sgeo: One, I just don't feel that way about you. Two, what?
01:46:19 <elliott> Gregor: Behold my genius allocator: http://sprunge.us/FOKK
01:46:36 <Sgeo> elliott, I thought you were doing a Who's On First thing at me
01:47:13 <elliott> What was your idea and what did he say.
01:47:57 <Sgeo> About Smalltalk-like images. One of my justifications is what if I want to turn off the computer while I'm working on something. His response: Hibernate works well
01:48:10 <Sgeo> Well, that was one of his responses. The other responses were more sensible.
01:48:17 <elliott> Your justification is insanely stupid in itself.
01:48:27 <Sgeo> elliott, didn't I say that already?
01:48:35 <elliott> Nope. You said your idea was stupid.
01:51:12 <elliott> Gregor is not admiring my genius allocator.
01:52:43 <elliott> does this initialise to {x,0,0,...} or {x,x,x,...}?
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01:57:14 <elliott> <Sgeo> cyborg_ar, I assume you're joking? If not, how is that possible?
01:57:30 <Sgeo> About just dumping the heap to a file
01:57:47 <Sgeo> <cyborg_ar> Sgeo: you could just dump the heap into a file
01:57:56 <elliott> Of course that's possible.
01:58:05 <Sgeo> I meant possible in pure Picolisp
02:01:09 <monqy> elliott your allocator is confusing. (this is because of the casts.)
02:01:20 <elliott> monqy: typedef struct pair *obj;
02:01:20 <elliott> struct pair { obj car; obj cdr; };
02:01:30 <elliott> monqy: I just cast it because I don't want to increment two objs every time :)
02:02:12 <elliott> monqy: anyway what you mean, is:
02:02:18 <elliott> monqy: "i'm not Zepto enough to understand your allocator"
02:02:21 <elliott> the answer is: more zepto.
02:02:28 <elliott> return readtable[getchar()]();
02:02:29 <monqy> I'm not zepto enough to understand your allocator :(
02:02:48 <elliott> monqy: i am sorry, but i cannot help you with such personal deficiencies.
02:02:55 <elliott> why not use zepto, all zepto code is easy to read.
02:03:12 <elliott> my reader should probably take a port or something
02:03:14 <elliott> so it isn't fucking stupid
02:06:09 <elliott> return cons(s_quote, read());
02:06:15 <elliott> Sgeo: zepto is so fucking better
02:06:45 <elliott> because i am making zepto because picolisp isn't fucking chill enough
02:07:24 <Sgeo> dynamic or lexical?
02:08:35 <elliott> dynamic because it's easier to implement with my awesome teqniqes
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02:11:48 <elliott> why did you break it monqy
02:12:51 <elliott> hey Gregor how do you align pools again... without specifying an exact address
02:13:15 <Gregor> elliott: Allocate double. Free beginning and end.
02:13:33 <Gregor> No, double the size I need X_X
02:13:35 <elliott> wait. that makes no sense.
02:13:40 <elliott> though what you said makes no sense either
02:14:11 <Gregor> Depends on what you need the alignment for; for my uses, that was unusable space. For yours it might not be, in which case don't.
02:14:39 <elliott> I'm going to restart X and just use posix_memalign or whatever instead :P
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02:16:24 <elliott> -NickServ- 1 failed login since last login.
02:16:24 <elliott> -NickServ- Last failed attempt from: Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 on Apr 22 21:45:25 2011.
02:16:28 <elliott> Thanks for testing that fake password, bro.
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02:19:42 <elliott> http://ff.connextra.com/resources/PaddyPower/PokerCompetitorCampaign20110420/728x90.gif ;; This is the most ridiculous ad ever.
02:20:05 <monqy> my ad blocker is blocking it
02:20:27 <monqy> that is the most ridiculous ad
02:20:51 <elliott> you know why i don't use an ad blocker?
02:20:56 <elliott> 'cuz i wouldn't get to see ads like that.
02:22:56 <elliott> wtf is up with my readtable...
02:24:39 <elliott> because i didn't use memalign
02:24:59 <elliott> ugh. i don't want to use posix_memalign.
02:25:22 <elliott> hey Gregor, if I just pass mmap a random bullshit address with the bits I want off, will it satisfy it?
02:25:45 <elliott> why does it even take an address parameter
02:25:47 <elliott> apart from to crus hdreams
02:26:55 <elliott> Gregor really likes crushing dreams. he is so not Zepto.
02:27:29 <augur> elliott: do you know if its possible to dualboot a mac where the windows is installed on an external drive?
02:27:41 <elliott> augur: If the Gods like you, yes.
02:28:49 <elliott> "I swear before God this holy oath, that I shall give absolute
02:28:49 <elliott> confidence to the Fuehrer of the German Reich and people."
02:28:53 <elliott> I wonder why that's in fortune's DB
02:28:56 <elliott> Maybe some nazi got commit rights
02:31:34 <elliott> Gregor: i just realised something cool
02:31:59 <elliott> i iterate over WAY TOO MANY values like th... wait, why
02:33:04 <elliott> i think it is because... this is stupid?
02:33:26 <elliott> #define TAGOF(x) (((intptr_t) (x)) | 7)
02:33:29 <elliott> behold ladies and mentlegen
02:33:44 <Gregor> That's one intense tag.
02:34:18 <Gregor> In that it's the entire pointer plus 0x111, that is :P
02:35:33 <elliott> So many tags, so few objects to tag them with.
02:36:31 <Gregor> One, why don't you go fuck a fruit basket.
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02:36:34 <Gregor> And two, you're a slut.
02:36:52 <elliott> Hey, when's Easter. Oh right, it's on Sunday.
02:38:10 <elliott> (gdb) print (poolptr+1) & 7
02:38:11 <elliott> Argument to arithmetic operation not a number or boolean.
02:38:14 <elliott> how do i make gdb not retarded.
02:38:45 <monqy> which one isn't a number or boolean
02:39:07 <monqy> can you make it a number
02:39:51 <elliott> wait no it makes perfect sense
02:39:53 <elliott> monqy: with a cast it seems
02:40:14 <monqy> casts, "the zepto way"
02:40:15 <elliott> 85 if (interned == NIL) ptr = interned = cons(NIL, NIL);
02:40:15 <elliott> 86 while (DEREF(ptr).cdr != NIL) {
02:40:15 <elliott> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
02:40:34 <elliott> Program terminated with signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
02:40:34 <elliott> The program no longer exists.
02:40:39 <elliott> "the program no longer exists"
02:43:14 <elliott> gdb can go backwards nowadays
02:43:24 <elliott> can it go backwards after the program segfaulted?
02:43:29 <monqy> will it make the program exist again
02:43:31 <elliott> i guess not, since it no longer exists
02:43:37 <elliott> monqy, you are so deep. for a monkey.
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02:49:48 <elliott> zepto.c:159: warning: implicit declaration of function ‘strdup’
02:50:25 <elliott> Gregor: can you believe that.
02:51:07 <Gregor> Apparently it's POSIX.
02:51:36 <elliott> ./whereami.c: *dir = strdup(full);
02:51:36 <elliott> ./whereami.c: *fil = strdup(*fil);
02:51:37 <elliott> ./whereami.c: char *argvzd = strdup(argvz);
02:51:37 <elliott> ./whereami.c: if (!argvzd) { perror("strdup"); exit(1); }
02:51:37 <elliott> ./whereami.c: path = strdup(path);
02:51:47 <elliott> FYTHE IS NOT PORTABLE :::000OooOOooOOO
02:52:04 <Gregor> Fythe is not portable in various ways, that's a pretty minor one :P
02:52:13 <Gregor> Although I'm surprised that -ansi -pedantic -Wall -Werror doesn't catch it ...
02:52:25 <elliott> zepto.c:159: warning: implicit declaration of function ‘strdup’
02:52:30 <elliott> [ 0/1 ] gcc -g -std=c99 -Wall -Wextra zepto.c -o zepto
02:52:36 <elliott> do you define _POSIX_WHATEVER?
02:52:53 <Gregor> No, but I think that GCC always defines _POSIX_C_SOURCE on POSIX platforms.
02:53:02 <Gregor> It's the other ones that need defining, like _BSD_SOURCE and _GNU_SOURCE
02:53:56 <elliott> I know this because I had to define _POSIX_C_SOURCE to get the right functions with IIRC musl.
02:54:01 <Gregor> whereami defines itself as _BSD_SOURCE X-D
02:54:03 <elliott> Since it's pedantic about what gets in the global namespace.
02:57:57 <elliott> In file included from /usr/include/stdlib.h:25,
02:57:57 <elliott> /usr/include/features.h:218: error: operator '||' has no right operand
02:57:57 <elliott> /usr/include/features.h:222: error: operator '&&' has no right operand
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02:58:07 <Gregor> _POSIX_C_SOURCE needs a value
02:58:13 <Gregor> It can't just be defined.
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02:59:07 <elliott> zepto.c:153: warning: passing argument 1 of ‘posix_memalign’ from incompatible pointer type
02:59:08 <elliott> /usr/include/stdlib.h:508: note: expected ‘void **’ but argument is of type ‘struct pair ****’
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03:00:18 <elliott> gdb really needs a "step BUT NOT INTO LIBC" command.
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03:01:17 <monqy> what if libc needs debugging
03:01:23 <elliott> monqy: then don't use that command
03:03:53 <pikhq> elliott: THOU HATH
03:10:30 <pikhq> Minecraft is soon to hit 2 million sales...
03:11:26 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_video_games It's actually earned a slot on this list.
03:11:51 <elliott> can we move this to -minecraft because
03:11:57 <elliott> i need to make a sarcastic notch comment
03:16:59 <elliott> TIL Kinder Surprise are illegal in the USA.
03:17:52 <elliott> we all learned something today
03:17:57 <elliott> that's the magic of christmas
03:19:12 <pikhq> Huh. I've had Kinder Surprise in the US.
03:19:34 <pikhq> Yay, illegal import.
03:19:52 <elliott> pikhq: you're ruining america.
03:20:23 <elliott> wow how the fuck do i allocate so much
03:20:54 <pikhq> while(1)malloc(1);
03:21:01 <elliott> DEREF(ptr).cdr = cons(mkint(*s), NIL);
03:21:22 <pikhq> Actually, let's make that for(;;malloc(1);)
03:21:32 <elliott> pikhq: too many parts, bro
03:21:35 <elliott> you mean for(;malloc(one);)
03:22:03 <pikhq> Lymia: Hmm. How very CJK of you.
03:24:36 <elliott> Lymia: you're really bad at... kastrating junk.
03:25:14 <pikhq> elliott: "Chinese/Japanese/Korean", as you well know.
03:25:24 <elliott> MAYBE IF YOU'RE UNCREATIVE.
03:26:02 <elliott> pikhq: four twenty five am is sleep for losers?
03:26:16 <elliott> i am sort of yawning but i know that caffeine prevents yawning.
03:30:44 <elliott> My junk remains unkastrated.
03:31:01 <Lymia> That sounds..... weird.
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03:36:16 <monqy> it would be far more normal if your junk were kastrated
03:36:48 <elliott> that is what most people are
03:42:21 <elliott> "We Justices must confront what is indeed an awesome responsibility. It has been rendered the solemn duty of the Supreme Court of the United States ... to decide What Is Golf. I am sure that the Framers of the Constitution ... fully expected that sooner or later the paths of golf and government, the law and the links, would once again cross, and that the judges of this august Court would some day have to wrestle with that age-old jurisprudential
03:42:21 <elliott> question, for which their years of study in the law have so well prepared them: Is someone riding around a golf course from shot to shot really a golfer? Either out of humility or out of self-respect (one or the other) the Court should decline to answer this incredibly difficult and incredibly silly question."
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03:44:29 <elliott> pikhq clearly read this article
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03:55:01 <pikhq> Lymiaさんは日本語で話せますか。
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04:30:55 <pikhq> The US's airport security tries hard to get you to not get any explosives on the plane, right?
04:31:07 <pikhq> *But*, alcoholic beverages are served beyond that.
04:31:26 <pikhq> I wonder if Everclear is available at an airport shop.
04:32:21 <pikhq> (here is how you make Everclear into an explosive: apply heat.)
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05:31:12 <pikhq> Hmm... First Zombie Jesus Day as an atheist coming up.
05:31:45 <pikhq> lament: Easter is Zombie Jesus Day. I became an atheist in January.
05:31:56 <pikhq> Also, Easter is this Sunday this year.
05:32:00 <pikhq> Any further questions?
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05:34:04 <lament> how do you become an atheist?
05:34:29 <pikhq> By ceasing to believe in the existence of deities, of course.
05:38:20 <pikhq> Because I realised that there was absolutely, positively no good reason to believe in the existence of a deity *in general*, and many good reasons to not believe in most all of the specific claims of deity.
05:39:11 <pikhq> Namely, any omnipotent deity could not possibly be benevolent.
05:40:09 <pikhq> And yet, most deity claims are benevolent and omnipotent.
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05:47:22 <pikhq> Oh, yes, it also helps that essentially all deity claims have some evidence of being fabrications.
05:48:22 <pikhq> Particularly the claim that I previously held to be true, namely the god of the Abrahamic faiths, as interpreted in Christianity.
05:58:44 <Sgeo> I think I gradually moved from theism to materialism
05:58:46 <Sgeo> Very gradually
06:01:31 <Sgeo> I just realized what had to be the most important part
06:01:40 <Sgeo> Michael Shermer's "Why People Believe Weird Things"
06:01:54 <Sgeo> A chapter debunked near-death experiences
06:02:23 <Sgeo> I stopped believing in an afterlife long before I stopped believing in God or souls (it was in that order)
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06:43:04 <oerjan> <elliott> "Phil Sophie" -- what Google Translate thinks the German word "Philsophie" is in English
06:43:44 <oerjan> i'd imagine the fact it's spelled "Philosophie" might be relevant
06:44:07 * pikhq continues to be amazed at the number of people driving pickup trucks in the US
06:44:26 <pikhq> I have no fucking clue why you'd want to spend $100+ on a tank of gas.
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06:49:04 <pikhq> And do so once or twice a week.
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07:13:05 <Sgeo> Cyanide and Happiness is losing its touch, imo
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07:45:49 <pikhq> Marsupials actually form an eggshell and then reabsorb it.
07:47:13 <monqy> way to be decisive, marsupials
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07:50:12 <lament> ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny
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07:51:17 <oerjan> oncology recaptures phytoplankton
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07:54:43 <pikhq> Huh. The horse (i.e. Equus ferus) has lived in North America from ~1.0-1.5 million years ago to 12,000 years ago, and from 1493 to present.
07:55:18 <pikhq> Yes, really. Columbus bringing horses over was a *reintroduction* to the continent.
07:56:32 <oerjan> did you know that until just a few million years ago, south america was dominated by marsupials?
07:57:11 <pikhq> The formation of the Panama Isthmus led to placentals coming over and out-competing most of them.
07:57:32 <pikhq> Antarctica *also* used to have marsupials.
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07:57:52 <pikhq> (South America, Antarctica, and Australia were once a single continent, you see.)
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08:00:18 <pikhq> The Panama Isthmus also led to a single North American marsupial.
08:00:44 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Opossum
08:00:58 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_American_Interchange
08:01:32 <pikhq> Well, yes, that is what I'm referring to.
08:01:53 <oerjan> that link was mostly for others
08:01:58 <oerjan> who might be listening
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08:29:25 <Vorpal> oerjan, heh. Strange how languages varies
08:29:32 <Vorpal> oerjan, do you use "glad jul" then?
08:29:46 <Vorpal> (and "trevlig sommar")
08:29:59 <oerjan> nei, god jul or god sommer
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08:31:14 <oerjan> "glade jul" is a popular christmas carol, though
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08:32:12 <oerjan> (stille nacht, stille natt)
08:32:16 <Vorpal> oerjan, that title... seems so wrong then
08:32:23 <Vorpal> oerjan, "stilla natt" in Swedish
08:32:45 <oerjan> i was trying to remember the swedish title there
08:33:07 <Vorpal> oerjan, merriness is not something I associate with that carol
08:33:23 <oerjan> yeah the norwegian lyrics are a bit different from the international standard ;)
08:33:23 <Vorpal> so "glade jul" seems a bit strange to me
08:33:33 <oerjan> i think danish uses it too
08:33:58 <cheater99> oerjan: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2311955
08:34:24 <cheater99> surprise surprise -- he's actually... Oleg.
08:34:59 <oerjan> or in particular, we norwegians based it on the danish one
08:35:13 <Vorpal> oerjan, ah. Those crazy danes
08:39:25 <Vorpal> oerjan, also I do fear that iwc is nearing its completion. Now that the fantasy theme is reaching it's goal
08:39:45 <Vorpal> I mean, them never getting there has been pretty much an invariant.
08:40:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it's still a way off the Calvin and Hobbes point.
08:41:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh, what is that point?
08:41:25 <Vorpal> I thought it was ~3100?
08:41:55 <oerjan> i think i saw 21 september as the estimated C&H date
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08:42:39 <oerjan> Vorpal: there is still plenty of possibility for all their progress to be obliterated at the last moment
08:42:56 <oerjan> that would be traditional, even
08:43:25 <oerjan> someone fixing a timeline somewhere could be devastating :)
08:44:13 <oerjan> after all we already saw them briefly meeting ardaxar during the universe destruction arch
08:44:56 <oerjan> otoh resetting it completely again would be sort of boring
08:50:20 <Vorpal> oerjan, and I suspect that three Serons running around would be too confusing
08:51:04 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, hmm, have you even got any idea what is going on with the timestream.
08:52:24 <Vorpal> oerjan, hm DMM managing to kill himself would make a rather obvious ending to iwc.
08:52:47 <oerjan> well he already did that
08:52:57 <Vorpal> oerjan, wait, didn't he manage to escape iirc?
08:53:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, he killed himself, killed-DMM was told to kill himself, he told to-be-killed-DMM to run, and the latter is now on the run from death.
08:54:08 <oerjan> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1800.html
08:54:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and who was it that is in the time machine then?
08:55:13 <oerjan> IT'S ALL SO SIMPLE I DON'T SEE WHY YOU ARE CONFUSED
08:55:30 <oerjan> i guess you're trying to apply _logic_ to it or something similarly meaningless
08:55:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and was that the same DMM as the one that recently were talking to a death about issues with the time stream?
08:55:53 <Phantom_Hoover> He's applying Vorplogic which is kind of like logic but doesn't work as well.
08:56:06 <oerjan> i don't think there has been more than one DMM since he "rescued" himself
08:56:27 <Vorpal> as Phantom_Hoover said, it is rather confusing
08:56:41 <oerjan> i think there are three, possibly four versions of the mythbusters though
08:57:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I was talking about the fact that the Mythbusters blew up the timestream ages ago and it still hasn't manifested itself.
08:57:20 <oerjan> (young, old on mars, grandfathers, and possibly the usual ones who inexplicably keep making the MB tv show)
08:57:39 <oerjan> oh wait the ones on mars went to the reichstag
08:58:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, could be because it happened in another meta time? This however I think requires time to be three dimensional, though I could be wrong about that.
08:58:21 <oerjan> the grandfathers are dead but they were up to some experiment on the IFPOD
08:58:39 <Vorpal> oerjan, err, what was IFPOD now again?
08:58:51 <oerjan> infinite featureless plane of death
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08:59:10 <Vorpal> oerjan, when did they do that experiment, I don't remember that
08:59:37 <oerjan> they were collecting a lot of dynamite
09:00:51 <oerjan> hm i think there are only three mythbuster variations
09:01:41 <oerjan> oh wait it's young mythbusters who went through mars...
09:01:55 * oerjan is more confused than he thought
09:03:28 <Vorpal> oerjan, I thought it was the old ones, not the grandfathers who did some experiment on IFPOD?
09:03:43 <oerjan> oh the old mythbusters didn't go anywhere, they just started the cat on its time travel journey
09:04:12 <oerjan> which confusingly sent it to the young ones :D
09:04:35 <Vorpal> oerjan, so who are these: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/2804.html
09:04:41 <oerjan> fortunately iwc has per-theme navigation
09:05:37 <oerjan> hm indeed that looks like the ordinary old mythbusters. maybe the explosion revived them.
09:05:38 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes I used it to find that one
09:06:01 <Vorpal> oerjan, in fact I'm unable to find grandfathers on IFPOD anywhere
09:09:36 <oerjan> hm they got to the ifpod by ripping up spacetime...
09:10:26 <Vorpal> oerjan, you mean with explosives? Yeah I thought that were the old ones
09:12:42 <oerjan> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/2641.html
09:12:53 <oerjan> i think that was the last seen of the grandfathers
09:17:52 <Vorpal> oerjan, no experiment there
09:18:23 <oerjan> no, i was thinking about the tnt + frog event
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11:56:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, compiling Why 2.29
12:16:35 <Lymia> Is it safe to expect OpenGL 2.1 on your average modern graphics card?
12:17:03 <Phantom_Hoover> IDIOT OF THE WEEK: "This question occured to me while watching an episode of Star Trek: Voyager. How did they ever find out that you can't breathe in space? How did they find out what happens?"
12:17:07 <Lymia> Average meaning in computers general, not just among higher end computers.
12:17:27 <Lymia> Phantom_Hoover, that has to be a troll, right?
12:17:57 <Phantom_Hoover> (I'm trying to find the thread that started the Salvation War series as part of a complex contingency plan.)
12:25:12 <Lymia> 3 or 4 years old at most.
12:25:22 <Vorpal> Lymia, my desktop is older than that :P
12:25:36 <Vorpal> I think it is 5 years old
12:25:47 <Lymia> OpenGL started existing in 2006.
12:26:17 <Vorpal> I think the GPU is from 2007, the rest of the system is from 2006
12:26:57 <Vorpal> OpenGL renderer string: GeForce 7600 GS/AGP/SSE2
12:26:57 <Vorpal> OpenGL version string: 2.1.2 NVIDIA 270.30
12:27:18 <Vorpal> OpenGL renderer string: Mesa DRI Mobile Intel® GM45 Express Chipset GEM 20091221 2009Q4
12:27:18 <Vorpal> OpenGL version string: 2.1 Mesa 7.7.1
12:27:41 <Lymia> GL_EXT_framebuffer_object exists?
12:28:06 <Vorpal> well where would I check for it?
12:28:56 <Vorpal> hm it seems to be listed there on both systems. The laptop is just ~2 years old.
12:29:42 <Vorpal> Lymia, I suggest you fall back on plain VGA by BIOS calls if everything else fails ;)
12:30:48 <cheater99> i have figured out the most amazing way to clean up my home.
12:31:31 <Vorpal> Lymia, but, what if that fails too? Hm... Okay you have to generate output for a dot matrix printer, in such a way that it can be assembled into a flip book!
12:34:49 <Phantom_Hoover> http://blog.computationalcomplexity.org/2011/04/what-did-banachs-wife-think-of-banach.html
12:35:40 <Phantom_Hoover> She has a Masters in CS and is one of those people who fail at understanding B-T.
12:36:05 <Phantom_Hoover> [[Personally, I am highly skeptical of there being any real world models of the BT result.]]
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13:12:56 <Phantom_Hoover> If elliott doesn't turn up soon I am just going to press ahead on Homestuck.
13:19:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm? Why not do that anyway?
13:22:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Because then he'll have to catch up and it'll all be terribly messy.
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13:54:21 <Fuco> Does anyone have a link on some tutorial/documentation on how to work with befunge extensions in rcfunge?
13:54:35 <Fuco> how do I load them and use and so on
13:54:43 <Fuco> I'd like to try some fun with sockets :P
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13:55:54 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie and Deewiant are AFAIK the only people here right now who know about that stuff.
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14:50:04 <Vorpal> anyone know a tool that given a set of address ranges + length that may be overlapping can generate one of those typical memory layout images that you find in manuals for CPUs.
14:50:18 <Vorpal> I mean, I could do it manually, but an automated tool would be nicer
14:52:13 <Vorpal> I wouldn't do it in bash. Math there is somewhat annoying. I'd probably do it in erlang or something
14:52:49 <Vorpal> basically I want to visualize this (from a linker script): http://sprunge.us/BHXe
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15:57:02 <Vorpal> elliott, hey, want to know some of the worst way to do dynamic linking I found ever seen?
15:57:08 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:57:46 <Vorpal> elliott, link twice statically to different base addresses. Diff the resulting files. Use this to build a relocation table
15:58:02 <elliott> Sorry, you misspelled the most awesome.
15:58:07 <Vorpal> elliott, this is using COFF, not PE btw
15:58:26 <Vorpal> oh and it is for an embedded 16 bit system
15:58:47 <Vorpal> elliott, maybe. Can we agree on "most crazy"?
16:00:27 <fizzie> I think I recall seeing that sort of strategy somewhere.
16:00:47 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and another fun thing here, to build user space programs so they can find kernel functions (no system "real" calls, no MMU either, no rings...) a program parses the .map file for the kernel and generates a linker script for the kernel space
16:00:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, this is for an RCX OS
16:01:12 <Vorpal> err, for the user space
16:01:18 <fizzie> Hmm. Well, I haven't played with that, but maybe I've just been reading.
16:01:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, or it could be semi-common for weird targets
16:06:06 <Vorpal> oh and this diffing is done on .srec files
16:06:15 <Vorpal> which is a rather weird format in itself I think
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16:36:39 <Vorpal> elliott, oh and the way the reallocation table is used is quite interesting too. When you download a program to the device, the PC program tells the device the size of the program it wants to download, and the device replies with an address it wants it relocated to. The PC then relocates it and sends the data.
16:39:22 <oerjan> "After practicing all year, North Korea shows the world how Earth Day is done."
16:39:48 <oerjan> http://i.imgur.com/PKNNj.jpg
16:39:52 <elliott> or whatever they are called
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17:08:32 <Vorpal> elliott, ever tried out Inferno?
17:09:17 <Vorpal> the source download is just 52 MB heh
17:10:28 <Vorpal> elliott, that is the whole system. With applications too. And the user space ports to various OS. For linux the source would be a lot larger
17:10:52 <Vorpal> okay, unpacked it is 137 MB
17:11:12 <Vorpal> or 97 MB exactly (137 MB was number of disk blocks)
17:13:22 <Vorpal> oh, no x86-64. This might get annoying to build
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17:19:53 <elliott> ais523: Eric Stucky is scary
17:20:30 <ais523> right attitude, but not much knowledge of the ruleset
17:20:39 <elliott> ais523: No, I just mean the using my name all the time :-D
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17:29:25 <Vorpal> elliott, for mk, what is the equiv of -j to make?
17:29:39 <elliott> MKJOBS or something. Look at the man page from Plan 9 from User Space.
17:29:48 <elliott> Or maybe it doesn't have it. Don't recall.
17:29:59 <Vorpal> elliott, eh? I meant for building in parallel
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17:30:13 <Vorpal> MKOBJS sound weird for that
17:30:22 <elliott> Good thing I didn't say MKOBJS.
17:31:22 <Vorpal> elliott, but this would be an env var then?
17:31:28 <elliott> I don't know check the man page.
17:31:33 <Vorpal> and it seems it isn't there
17:34:03 <Vorpal> okay it built. What now...
17:34:19 <Vorpal> elliott, I built the hosted build
17:34:35 <Vorpal> elliott, well I'm trying to find the relevant binary
17:34:41 <Vorpal> there are many, but none of them seems to be it
17:34:49 <Vorpal> 0a 0l 1c 2a 2l 5c 5cv 8a 8l asm data2c emu iar inm ka kl ksize limbo mk mkppcimage ms2 qa ql srclist tc vc
17:34:49 <Vorpal> 0c 1a 1l 2c 5a 5coff 5l 8c acid c2l data2s ftl idea iyacc kc kprof kstrip md5sum mkext mk.save ndate qc sqz styxtest va vl
17:34:59 <elliott> Well, you know those are the compilers and assemblers and linkers.
17:35:09 <elliott> Pretty sure it'll be something else.
17:35:18 <elliott> It will be elsewhere, I think.
17:35:23 <elliott> I was thinking limbo, but no.
17:35:25 <Vorpal> emu gives me a ; prompt
17:35:39 <Vorpal> elliott, limbo gives me a single like usage: ... line
17:35:46 <Vorpal> usage: limbo [-CGSacgwe] [-I incdir] [-o outfile] [-{T|t|d} module] [-D debug] file ...
17:35:55 <elliott> limbo is the Limbo compiler.
17:36:04 <elliott> Vorpal: Isn't there a readme or something?
17:36:06 <ais523> that directory looks like Plan 9-ish names
17:36:12 <elliott> ais523: Limbo is a Plan 9 derivative.
17:36:15 <Vorpal> elliott, nope. There is INSTALL but it ended where I am now
17:36:28 <elliott> Limbo is the language designed for Inferno.
17:36:31 <Vorpal> elliott, there is a README.gcode about licence
17:36:33 <elliott> Vorpal: Read man pages at random. :p
17:36:44 <Vorpal> elliott, best method ever
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17:39:37 <Vorpal> elliott, running this now: find . -type f -exec file {} + | grep 'ELF 32-bit LSB executable' | awk -F: '{print $1}'
17:39:58 <Vorpal> nope, lets try scripts
17:40:37 <elliott> I was gonna suggest something similar, but then I didn't bother.
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17:40:54 <ais523> elliott: turiski is still trying to prove you're a rule
17:41:09 <elliott> ais523: Well, I /do/ rule.
17:41:23 <ais523> hmm, I think a simple counterargument is that nothing has made you into a rule since the last SLR ratification
17:41:56 <elliott> Does ratifying the SLR ensure that nothing else is a rule, even if it is platonically so?
17:42:47 <ais523> unless it has sufficient power that it could hide from the SLR somehow
17:43:13 <elliott> Well, I /am/ all-powerful.
17:45:09 <Vorpal> ooh I think I got... maybe
17:46:13 <Vorpal> elliott, emu seems to be the key
17:46:24 <Vorpal> I figured out how to run the dis shell
17:46:43 <Vorpal> I want something graphical though
17:47:56 <Vorpal> well ldd says Linux/386/bin/emu links against X stuff, and is the only thing that does that
17:50:12 <Vorpal> elliott, hey this thing has dis/lego/rcxsend.dis
17:50:27 <oerjan> <elliott> Well, I /am/ all-powerful. <-- major successful scam? :D
17:50:46 <elliott> oerjan: Heck no, I'm just awesome.
17:50:55 <elliott> The Scam was an abject failure.
17:51:09 <oerjan> might be a good film title...
17:55:45 <Vorpal> elliott, heh, it calls acme an IDE
17:57:39 <Vorpal> can't get charon to run
17:57:49 <Vorpal> wmlib: no draw context
17:57:53 <Vorpal> elliott, any smart idea?
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18:03:13 <elliott> My readtable should contain closures.
18:03:20 <elliott> Even though closures are lame.
18:03:24 <elliott> Maybe I should just use GLOBALS instead.
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18:04:03 <elliott> OK maybe I should define ports first.
18:04:12 <oerjan> instead of closures, use openings
18:04:21 <elliott> your mom uses closure openings.
18:04:36 <elliott> bleh a port would be a pain
18:04:58 <elliott> or maybe not. maybe that would suck.
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18:07:46 <Vorpal> elliott, C sucks. What did you expect?
18:07:54 <elliott> i should write it in zepto instead. oh wait.
18:09:22 <Vorpal> hah charon works when run from acme
18:10:27 <Vorpal> getsubfont: can't open /fonts/lucidasans/../lucm/cyrillic.9: Interrupted system call <--- niiice
18:10:34 <Vorpal> (why did it try to open that)
18:11:45 <Vorpal> oh god it assumes /usr/<username>
18:12:44 <Vorpal> elliott, what is the terminal called
18:13:01 <elliott> It's done by the window manager.
18:13:11 <elliott> They're just text windows.
18:13:19 <Vorpal> no rio, what about 9win?
18:13:33 <elliott> 9term is what the Plan 9 from User Space port is called.
18:13:47 <Vorpal> well 9win opens a white X11 window with the title "Inferno"
18:13:59 <Vorpal> 9win: cannot bind srv device: unknown device in # filename;
18:14:17 <Vorpal> ah and now acme opens inside
18:14:27 <elliott> i wonder how super-linear-time my intern function is.
18:15:46 <Vorpal> elliott, when running charon from acme they interfere with each other. Both react to keyboard and mouse events
18:16:17 <elliott> case T_INTEGER: return (*(obj (*)(obj))f)(a);
18:16:23 <elliott> this is the best line of code i've ever written.
18:17:40 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, what about 9term?
18:17:46 <Vorpal> plan9 from userspace has that
18:17:54 <elliott> that's just the emulation of rio text windows.
18:18:25 <Vorpal> elliott, what is plan9's web browser called?
18:18:40 <Vorpal> elliott, any included by default?
18:19:04 <Vorpal> elliott, in plan9 from userspace I meant here
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18:21:07 <elliott> case T_INTEGER: return (*(obj (*)(obj))(DEREF(f).car))(a);
18:22:19 <Vorpal> elliott, there is no binary download of the freestanding OS variant as far as I can tell
18:22:24 <Vorpal> you have to cross compile it
18:28:43 <Vorpal> Plan 9 from User Space is no longer accessible using CVS;
18:28:43 <Vorpal> you must use Mercurial.
18:28:52 <Vorpal> elliott, strange that is listed as a bug in the man page
18:29:25 <ais523> why would you use a version control system at all in order to access a program from user space?
18:29:33 <ais523> nobody uses svn for system calls...
18:29:43 <Vorpal> ais523, you COMPLETELY missed the point
18:29:58 <Vorpal> ais523, it is to update the plan9 from userspace distribution
18:30:08 <Vorpal> the man page about updating it
18:30:55 <elliott> Vorpal: i think ais523 is just trolling.
18:31:03 <elliott> or else being deliberately dense, which is much the same thing
18:31:14 <Vorpal> elliott, hey, it isn't
18:32:01 <Vorpal> it is a form of humour
18:36:16 <ais523> ungetc is trivial to implement with a wrapper around getc, etc
18:37:08 <Vorpal> <elliott> ungetc is so gross <-- yes
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18:46:47 <Vorpal> hm what computational class are linker scripts?
18:48:05 <ais523> Vorpal: I don't know enough about linker scripts to say
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19:01:37 <elliott> Bignum arithmetic is a pain.
19:01:50 <ais523> elliott: depends on context
19:01:56 <ais523> it can be quite easy in some languages
19:02:48 <elliott> or just print in a power of two base :D
19:03:16 <ais523> or use decimal bignums
19:03:41 <ais523> also, re the topic, it's possible to /buy/ a sense of smell?
19:03:41 <elliott> ais523: that's pesky arithmetic-wise, though
19:06:04 <Vorpal> <elliott> implementing it <-- why? Why not use gmp or such
19:06:18 <elliott> that's not zepto. also, my experience with Fythe tells me that gmp is a fucking pain in the ass.
19:06:21 <elliott> Gregor can back me up here :P
19:06:49 <Vorpal> elliott, so isn't there some good bignum library for C?
19:07:03 <elliott> gmp. It's stupidly fast etc. etc. etc. It's just a massive pain in the ass to use.
19:07:10 <elliott> It's designed for program authors, not language authors.
19:07:33 <Vorpal> elliott, would it be less of a PITA for program authors?
19:07:56 <elliott> Yes, because you don't have to worry about bignum promotion, operations with one operand fixnum and the other bignum, the five hundred kinds of division it provides...
19:08:10 <elliott> Not joking: http://gmplib.org/manual-4.3.2/Integer-Division.html
19:08:28 <Vorpal> elliott, and if you are implementing bignum, are you doing multiplication with fft?
19:08:44 <elliott> I think I'll just do successive addition.
19:08:53 <Vorpal> elliott, that is so horribly inefficient
19:09:05 <elliott> Yeah, but long division requires more brain power than allowed by the Zepto manifesto.
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19:10:26 <Vorpal> elliott, so how are you doing division then
19:10:44 <elliott> Successive... SUBTRACTION???????
19:11:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't think that works...
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19:11:22 <elliott> Vorpal: I'll just do it by testing successive integers.
19:11:28 <elliott> Does one work? Does two work? ...
19:11:58 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you doing bignum then? It will be too slow for numbers outside the fixnum range anyway
19:12:08 <elliott> Limitations are not Zepto.
19:12:34 <Vorpal> elliott, what do you mean
19:12:58 <elliott> In fact I'm not even using fixnums, everything is a bignum.
19:13:19 <Vorpal> <elliott> Not Zpetototo <-- don't you mean Zeptototo
19:13:51 <Vorpal> elliott, congrats, you just managed to make a C implementation slower than the python implementation!
19:14:21 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway gmp would be easy if you only need bignum
19:14:48 <elliott> Spoken like someone who's never used gmp.
19:15:04 <Vorpal> elliott, from what I saw on the page you linked
19:15:24 <Vorpal> elliott, you could make do with mpz_cdiv_qr
19:15:30 <elliott> That is not why gmp sucks.
19:15:35 <elliott> Have you ever actually used it.
19:15:50 <Vorpal> elliott, only from bindings to other languages
19:16:21 <elliott> Nope, read the cfythe source yourself.
19:16:32 <elliott> Then you'll get about one percent of the pain because it's been through tons of local revisions because of stupidity.
19:16:33 <Vorpal> elliott, got a link to that source?
19:16:54 <elliott> https://codu.org/projects/fythe/hg/
19:17:15 <elliott> bignum.c and fastjit/fastjitdefs.c and fastjitdefs-x[eightsix]_[sixtyfour].S are the most relevant.
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19:19:04 <elliott> God bignum.c is impossible to follow.
19:19:40 <Vorpal> elliott, that is quite an interesting way to do right is bignum
19:19:48 <Vorpal> I *think* you switch place of them
19:19:57 <Vorpal> elliott, in #define COMMUTATIVE(name, op_si, op_bn) \
19:19:57 <elliott> For commutative operations, yes.
19:20:06 <elliott> BTW, compare IAdd/IMul/IDiv/IMod in
19:20:08 <elliott> https://codu.org/projects/fythe/hg/index.cgi/file/c37f1b13493e/cfythe/fastjit/fastjitdefs-x86_64-raw.S
19:20:09 <elliott> https://codu.org/projects/fythe/hg/index.cgi/file/c37f1b13493e/cfythe/fastjit/fastjitdefs-x86_64.S
19:20:15 <elliott> The latter has the "jno" manually added to it.
19:20:16 <Vorpal> elliott, what is a fytheSP
19:20:23 <elliott> Vorpal: The Fythe stack register.
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19:20:35 <elliott> The stack uses had to be fixed because Fythe only reserves one word on the stack.
19:20:40 <elliott> And gcc used something too far.
19:22:07 <elliott> Anyway, what I'm saying is: fuck no, I'm not using GMP.
19:22:52 <elliott> Vorpal: Oh, and those bignum.c routines don't handle the case where a fixnum value is LONG_MIN or whatever the stupid name is.
19:22:56 <Vorpal> elliott, what is GCC_PUSH/GCC_HEADER/GCC_POP?
19:22:57 <elliott> Because negating that value yields itself.
19:23:03 <elliott> And those are garbage-collector noise.
19:23:12 <Vorpal> elliott, so where is that LONG_MIN case handled?
19:23:34 <elliott> Yes. Fuck you. I was too depressed after the pain of everything else to bother fixing it.
19:23:50 <Vorpal> elliott, patches to bignum.c? hell no
19:24:04 <elliott> And I haven't even handled bitwise operations yet.
19:24:12 <elliott> I don't even want to think about it.
19:24:31 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't know if I have to blame it on gmp or the author of that file. But at least that example of gmp usage is horrible
19:24:41 <Vorpal> without more data point I can't make a more general statement
19:25:01 <elliott> The author of that file is ME.
19:25:23 <Vorpal> elliott, my statement still stands
19:25:45 <Vorpal> elliott, especially after you posted that C++ code thingy recently
19:25:56 <elliott> Yeah, no, this is definitely gmp's fault.
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19:27:20 <elliott> Gregor: What is Makefile.gcc anyway
19:27:25 <Vorpal> elliott, actually the code is verbose, but it looks like typical usage of a C library. It isn't nearly as horrible as C++ templates
19:27:40 <elliott> Vorpal: It isn't the verbosity, it's the fucking edge-cases and upconverting.
19:28:27 <Vorpal> and I don't see edge cases
19:28:38 <elliott> (fixnum div bignum) and bullshit like osgdifdfjogh ugh shut up
19:28:49 <elliott> I'm busy reading Homestuck which is ten times as entertaining as recalling the Cthulhian horror.
19:29:20 <Vorpal> elliott, you mean that you have to handle bignum/bignum bignum/fixnum fixnum/bignum and fixnum/fixnum?
19:29:34 <elliott> Yes. The last one is handled in fastjitdefs.c.
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19:29:55 <Vorpal> elliott, well that just adds verbosity. Repetitive yes.
19:35:59 <elliott> 1289 cvttsd2siq-8(%r13), %rdx
19:38:20 <Vorpal> elliott, err, what does it do?
19:38:28 <elliott> Converts a float to an integer, it seems.
19:38:29 <Vorpal> heck it isn't even an SSE instruction
19:38:47 <Vorpal> elliott, but where would the double be stored?
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19:40:48 <Vorpal> 26568—Rev. 3.10—September 2007
19:40:49 <Vorpal> Convert Scalar Single-Precision Floating-Point
19:40:49 <Vorpal> to Signed Doubleword or Quadword Integer,
19:41:00 <Vorpal> CVTTSS2SI reg64, F3 0F 2C /r
19:41:31 <Vorpal> CVTTSS2SI reg64, xmm/mem32
19:42:00 <Vorpal> oh wait, it can do memory too
19:45:14 <Vorpal> elliott, other good instructions are MASKMOVDQU and PUNPCKHQDQ
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19:45:35 <Vorpal> elliott, both are SSE related
19:45:46 <Vorpal> non-SSE one have saner names
19:46:17 <Vorpal> MASKMOVDQU is Masked Move Double Quadword Unaligned
19:46:33 <Vorpal> PUNPCKHQDQ is Unpack and Interleave High Quadwords
19:47:29 <Vorpal> I like MOVMSKPS (Extract Packed Single-Precision Floating-Point - Sign Mask) too
19:47:45 <Vorpal> but it could be because it doesn't fit
19:48:50 <Vorpal> elliott, hey, make sure to use PCMPGTW
19:49:09 <Vorpal> (Packed Compare Greater Than Signed Words)
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19:58:00 <Gregor> elliott: http://i.imgur.com/dXShS.png Portability, bitch!
19:58:05 <Vorpal> elliott, why does gmp use mpz as the prefix
19:58:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, which compiler
19:59:00 <elliott> Gregor: My definition of /portable/ code in the strict sense is code that will work wherever C is available :P
19:59:10 <elliott> Fythe is certainly portable enough, but it's not /portable code/.
19:59:20 <Gregor> elliott: Therefore, portable code cannot have a GC.
19:59:28 <elliott> Gregor: Well, it can if it manages its own heap.
19:59:38 <Gregor> elliott: Fair enough :P
19:59:46 <elliott> I might allow the Boehm GC because it runs on literally every machine ever :P
20:00:02 <Vorpal> elliott, no it doesn't. Not on PDP-11
20:00:03 <Gregor> So, you're a hypocrite.
20:00:08 <Gregor> And don't care about 16-bit systems.
20:00:14 <elliott> Gregor: No; if I was being pedantic, I wouldn't allow it.
20:00:28 <elliott> But I wouldn't lynch someone for writing perfect C that used the Boehm GC, because /you can just implement GC_malloc as malloc/.
20:00:33 <elliott> Sure, it'll leak memory, but that's irrelevant, platonically.
20:00:49 <Gregor> ... s/platonically/pedantically/ or something?
20:01:06 <elliott> The definition of C does not involve running out of memory.
20:01:17 <elliott> The Boehm GC is just an optimisation, space-wise. :p
20:01:30 <Vorpal> elliott, err.. since sizeof(void*) is finite, it does
20:02:00 <elliott> OK, a program that would run forever if GC'd properly but run out of memory if it never freed would technically not be portable IF NOT FOR THE FACT THAT
20:02:01 <Vorpal> elliott, malloc returns NULL when out of memory
20:02:09 <elliott> All programs terminate or repeat on finite hardware.
20:02:20 <elliott> Not even GC can save you from that.
20:02:37 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
20:04:45 <Vorpal> For base in the range 2..36, digits and lower-case letters are used; for −2..−36, digits and upper-case letters are used; for 37..62, digits, upper-case letters, and lower-case letters (in that significance order) are used. <-- what
20:05:30 <Gregor> Vorpal: Presumably it's just letting you use the sign bit to request capitalization.
20:05:46 <Vorpal> Gregor, well it is GMP
20:06:08 * Gregor fails to see the relevance of that fact.
20:06:09 <Vorpal> - Function: char * mpz_get_str (char *str, int base, mpz_t op)
20:06:38 <Vorpal> I somehow read it as a parsing function
20:12:11 <Vorpal> elliott, how does bitwise negation work in bignum. I mean, would ~0100 be 1011 or 1111111011
20:12:41 <elliott> ...................1111111011
20:12:50 <elliott> where dots are infinite ones
20:12:58 <elliott> except gmp actually uses sign-magnitude, but it fakes two's complement for bitwise ops
20:12:59 <Vorpal> elliott, right. So is that what mpz_com does?
20:13:29 <Vorpal> elliott, so bitwise not in cfythe will do different things for bignum and fixnum?
20:13:39 <elliott> Whatever gives you that idea?
20:13:52 <Gregor> "but it fakes two's complement for bitwise ops"
20:13:59 <Gregor> Is what should NOT give you that idea :P
20:13:59 <elliott> its all there in te mamaul
20:14:23 <elliott> i don't know is the same as
20:14:50 <Vorpal> <elliott> when interpreted as yeah <-- as yeah?
20:15:02 <Vorpal> what do you mean with that
20:15:10 <elliott> use brain matter to think it out
20:15:30 <elliott> it's obvious if you're a genius like me.
20:15:42 <Gregor> Ineed to type an extra 'd'!
20:16:10 <elliott> "I need to type an extra 'd'[XCLAMATION MURK]"
20:16:15 <elliott> [asterisk]exclamation mark
20:24:05 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, does your laptop has fn?
20:24:12 <Vorpal> elliott, if so, what about the fn numpad?
20:36:02 <Vorpal> hm gmp floats have no log function?
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20:53:07 <cads> cheater99 mentions that I should ask you if I'm interested in an algebraic approach to chess
20:53:30 <zzo38> cads: Do you mean algebraic notation, or, what?
20:53:37 <ais523> cads: surely you know whether you're interested in an algebraic approach to chess, more than zzo38 does?
20:54:04 <cheater99> he's thinking about morphisms in the space of positions
20:54:07 <ais523> elliott: ^ the above sentence works both with the correct interpretation of cads' statement /and/ the most obvious deliberate misinterpretation
20:54:24 <elliott> ais523: why do you twist my brain like that
20:54:29 <elliott> i was just fine with its euclidean geometry
20:54:44 <cads> heh, sorry, english is a second language
20:55:16 <zzo38> O, morphisms in space of positions. Yes I have worked with such things.
20:55:31 <cads> yeah, I just realized that move lines form morphisms between positions
20:55:44 <Vorpal> elliott, any idea how much pain it would be to use mpfr with gmp
20:55:51 <ais523> the big issue with category theory is that pretty much everything forms a category
20:56:19 * cheater99 locks up cads and zzo38 for months in a dark attic somewhere, and feeds them raw meat
20:56:20 <Vorpal> elliott, well yeah. But does it in the same place? Basically I'm interested in gmp + logarithms
20:56:24 <cads> ais523: but only people that don't know categories see that as a bad thing!
20:56:35 <elliott> `addquote <ais523> the big issue with category theory is that pretty much everything forms a category
20:56:37 <cheater99> that is, you get food if i see further pages of the paper being written.
20:56:38 <HackEgo> 379) <ais523> the big issue with category theory is that pretty much everything forms a category
20:56:43 <ais523> elliott: you think that's quoteworthy?
20:56:45 <zzo38> cads: Yes, it does. There are other ways to form morphisms between positions as well.
20:56:54 <Phantom_Hoover> cads, if everything is a category, there's an upper limit to what you can actually *do* with them.
20:57:20 <ais523> most category-theoretic results are over subsets of categories, probably for that reason
20:57:50 <cads> Phantom_Hoover: I mean, if you claim to know how to do things more complex than what's been done with categories, then super!
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20:58:47 <cads> hehe, at the worst, category theory is just another esoteric lang and deserves our respect as such :)
20:58:50 <ais523> well, it's a real word
20:59:01 <elliott> no, i mean in context of an irc nick, you pedantic somethings.
20:59:02 <cads> at best, it's just a really comfortable location for algebraic thinking to live in
20:59:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: is there any semantic difference
20:59:25 <cads> and the location metaphor has been taken pretty far with toposes
20:59:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Because one would be bear-pikhq whilst the other would be a bear.
20:59:50 <Vorpal> <elliott> no, i mean in context of an irc nick, you pedantic somethings. <-- what about "nitpick"?
20:59:54 <cads> where you can't even complain anymore since if you like classical math you're working in the classical topos of sets anyways, and you're most welcome to
21:00:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: is there any semantic difference
21:00:53 <ais523> elliott: I just grepped all my IRC logs for cads' IP, he/she seems to be never-before-seen from my point of view
21:01:09 <elliott> it may have been another channel. i grepped "cads" and there's nothing.
21:01:11 <zzo38> I have done isomorphisms too, not only morphisms. However when I done it I have not called it any of these things.
21:01:36 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, one would contain the tissue of pikhq inside the stomach, the other one would possibly contain it in the tissue of the bear (though this is uncertain, there is no experimental data on human-bear transformations)
21:02:07 <cads> zzo38: how did you approach it?
21:03:26 <zzo38> cads: One such thing is "A game designed to be as different to chess as possible while still being the same as chess." However, move lines also works, as you have said. I may have making a few mistakes since I am not very good at category theory, though.
21:04:10 <cads> hehe, some kind of dual of chess?
21:04:11 <Vorpal> zzo38, was "A game designed to be as different to chess as possible while still being the same as chess." that 1D chess thingy?
21:04:48 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes. It is not quite like category theory, though. I do not understand category theory completely, so it is not category theory.
21:05:42 <zzo38> However, I would like to understand category theory better, but I don't.
21:06:09 -!- Tomsik has joined.
21:06:09 <zzo38> Is there any relation between category theory and the "theory of types"?
21:06:25 <Tomsik> What is this. I don't even.
21:06:38 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
21:06:41 <zzo38> Tomsik: What is what? This channel?
21:06:47 -!- Mathnerd314 has left.
21:06:54 <Tomsik> Apparently you read minds, sir.
21:06:57 <Vorpal> Tomsik, esoteric programming languages
21:07:15 <Vorpal> (not esoterica, many make that amusing mistake)
21:07:21 <zzo38> Tomsik: I do not read minds. (See the wiki for information too)
21:07:22 <cads> like lolcat or befunge, I'd guess
21:07:25 -!- Saizan has joined.
21:07:30 <Vorpal> cads, we all hate lolcat
21:07:36 <Vorpal> but yes, like INTERCAL and befunge and so on
21:08:13 <Vorpal> (lolcat is just a normal programming language with "funny" names for the keywords/functions pretty much, not very interesting)
21:08:42 <cads> any of you guys ever played the carnage heart game on psx?
21:09:05 <Vorpal> not me, I haven't ever used an psx anyway.
21:09:10 <Vorpal> also strange this new influx of people
21:09:26 <cads> it had a 2d grid language where you'd place tiles to create decision flows that would operate a fighting robot
21:09:35 -!- siracusa has joined.
21:09:39 <elliott> saizan has been here before.
21:09:58 <Vorpal> elliott, well cads, Tomsik?
21:10:00 <elliott> dunno, doesn't seem like that much of an influx
21:10:17 <elliott> we should probably be very awful to make sure they go away.
21:10:24 <Saizan> i don't think so, anyhow it's just that this channel got mentioned elsewhere, i think
21:10:26 <cads> and part of the fun was was watching the decision focus flash through your network, and troubleshooting it based on the patterns you saw
21:10:31 <zzo38> There is way to map 2D chess variant game to 1D, or 3D to 2D to 1D, or whatever else. With a few similar ideas.
21:11:26 <elliott> hmm, wait, Saizan is from the haskell channel
21:11:32 <elliott> I tentatively blame copumpkin
21:11:45 <Vorpal> elliott, he is not here atm?
21:11:46 <Tomsik> I just detected "category theory"
21:12:03 <Vorpal> elliott, Tomsik is also in #haskell
21:12:05 <elliott> hmm, not in the haskell logs
21:12:09 <Vorpal> very probably the sourse
21:12:09 <elliott> YOU WON'T GET AWAY WITH THIS
21:12:43 <elliott> meh, the invasion is too much of a trickle to bother interrogating them.
21:12:46 <Vorpal> hm, a bignum fingerprint to befunge might be nice
21:13:06 <Vorpal> for those that use fixnum for the funge space
21:16:41 <Tomsik> Is there a language that doesn't let you name arguments to a function, forcing you to go pointfree?
21:17:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I think this is one for you
21:17:51 <zzo38> Tomsik: TeX uses only numbers for macro arguments.
21:18:04 <Vorpal> zzo38, that isn't point free though
21:18:12 <Vorpal> that is just numbered arguments
21:18:20 <zzo38> Vorpal: O, OK. What is "point free"?
21:18:42 <Tomsik> de brujin indixes are not bad, they let you refer to arguments by a name
21:18:59 <zzo38> Tomsik: What is "de brujin inidxes"?
21:19:01 <Tomsik> zzo38: expressing everything as composition of functions/transforms/whatever
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21:19:53 <zzo38> Unlambda? (Maybe not)
21:20:20 <Vorpal> <cheater99> zzo38: tan = sin/cos <-- how is that relevant?
21:20:44 <Tomsik> okay unlambda is pointfree
21:20:56 <Tomsik> though it seems to be just SKI-calculus at first glance
21:21:01 <cheater99> Vorpal: it's a pointfree expression of tan(x) = sin(x)/cos(x)
21:21:03 <zzo38> Tomsik: OK. So I am correct.
21:21:15 <Vorpal> cheater99, oh, right. yeah
21:21:43 <cheater99> Vorpal: almost everyone knows it, and it's usually one of the first formulas learnt that are pointfree
21:21:52 <Vorpal> I don't get why people (especially haskell people) love point free so much
21:22:02 <cheater99> because it propagates polymorphism
21:22:12 <Vorpal> I mean, sure, it is kind of nice. But they seem prepared to go to any length for it.
21:22:17 <cheater99> especially things that have wildly different meanings
21:22:27 <cheater99> for example, "id" has all sorts of different meanings
21:22:40 <Vorpal> cheater99, id is the no-operation surely?
21:22:41 <cheater99> but you can make up functions that hold for any sort of id function
21:23:43 <Vorpal> not sure why it has to be point free for it
21:23:55 <zzo38> It would seem, to me, like sin/cos is not having any value, you should use like result_div(sin,cos) where you mean result_div(x,y)(z) = (x(z)/y(z)) but it is not completely understood. How can you divide a function?
21:24:47 <Vorpal> if they were polynomial you could presumably do polynomial divisions (not true for this case), but yeah that seems like a bad example
21:25:07 <cheater99> zzo38: it's just a shorthand. don't let it trouble your little mind, skipper :p
21:25:21 <zzo38> I know also in Forth you can do without names. If SIN and COS exists and the system uses all real numbers for anything (not actually the case of course), you have: : TAN DUP SIN SWAP COS / ;
21:25:36 <Vorpal> it has a stack though there
21:25:47 <Vorpal> so they are implicitly named from their order on the stack
21:25:59 <cheater99> zzo38: mathematics uses a lot of shorthands that don't make sense if viewed in the light of usual syntax.
21:26:02 <Vorpal> it is not function composition
21:27:29 <Vorpal> zzo38, http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Pointfree
21:27:32 <Tomsik> It's just that for example if you want to compose a -> b -> c with c -> d into a -> b ->d then in pointfree you do (.).(.)
21:27:46 <Tomsik> which obviously is quite esoteric
21:28:08 <Vorpal> (.) :: (b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c
21:28:29 <Vorpal> I think it would have been MUCH cleaner if it had been (.) :: (a -> b) -> (b -> c) -> a -> c
21:28:34 <Vorpal> why isn't it that way around hm
21:29:05 <Tomsik> It's because of matematicians
21:29:15 <Tomsik> who want (f . g)(x) to be f (g x)
21:29:34 <Tomsik> there are some who use (;) :: (a -> b) -> (b -> c) -> a -> c
21:29:50 <Vorpal> Tomsik, not in Prelude?
21:30:02 <Tomsik> Nope, in Haskell ; has a different meaning
21:30:21 <Vorpal> Tomsik, so is there any operator like (;) in haskell
21:30:26 <Vorpal> it would be so much more sensible
21:30:38 <Tomsik> you can do it yourself in two lines
21:30:58 <Tomsik> a .! b = \x -> b (a x)
21:31:00 <elliott> <Vorpal> I don't get why people (especially haskell people) love point free so much
21:31:04 <elliott> because it makes code clearer
21:31:10 <elliott> anyway that's a total strawman
21:31:20 <Tomsik> or infixl, whatever you like
21:31:30 <Tomsik> elliott: not always ;)
21:31:44 <siracusa> (.!) = flip (.) <-- point-free
21:31:55 <elliott> an elegant point-free expression makes code clearer, rather
21:32:07 <Tomsik> thing like (. map) . (.) filter (or something like this) is not really readable
21:32:12 <pikhq> Tomsik: Part of it is that point-free expressions are clearer in many contexts.
21:32:20 <Vorpal> Tomsik, no... what does it do?
21:32:21 <pikhq> Tomsik: Part of it, though, is that it's just fun to do.
21:32:41 <Vorpal> <elliott> anyway that's a total strawman <-- in many cases I fear it is not
21:32:42 <pikhq> It definitely depends on the code for whether it's actually clearer.
21:32:43 <Tomsik> :: (([a] -> [b]) -> a1 -> Bool) -> (a -> b) -> [a1] -> [a1]
21:33:05 <Vorpal> Tomsik, I find that type signature rather confusing as well I have to say
21:33:26 <elliott> Vorpal: how many haskell users have you ever actually talked to
21:33:36 <Vorpal> elliott, mostly those who visit this channel
21:33:40 <elliott> i don't think you've ever been in #haskell
21:33:42 <elliott> Vorpal: ok, so that's like... three
21:33:46 <Vorpal> elliott, I am in that channel
21:33:53 <elliott> well you've never said anything.
21:34:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I think I have. Once.
21:34:47 <Tomsik> Vorpal: well, I think I've messed something up, it's supposed to be something like \l p f -> map f (filter p l)
21:53:59 <zzo38> Once, in a GameBoy ROM hack, which consisted of a change of a single byte from 0x3D (decrement A register) to 0xA7 (bitwise AND the A register with itself). Maybe it is useless to you, but actually it isn't useless. It is used to make infinite lives. The reason for this is to improve the scoring of the game. If you don't know how this helps, you are not very good at game design.
21:56:02 <pikhq> zzo38: Seems like that ought to be a cheat rather than a hack.
21:56:39 <zzo38> pikhq: It would seem so. But, when you understand how it improves the scoring, you might be able to see why this is.
21:57:09 <pikhq> Actually, the thing is, a cheat could make the same damned change.
21:57:17 <pikhq> Except it'd be easier to use than a ROM hack.
21:57:31 <pikhq> And, indeed, could be done on real hardware.
21:57:41 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes it could. However, I used a ROM hack. Use whichever way works for you.
21:59:41 <zzo38> Just wait a few minutes you will see the article in phlog
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22:18:45 <zzo38> gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0phlog*c_game.game-design-i
22:19:01 <zzo38> Go to gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/1phlog*d_game.game-design-i for send comments
22:19:58 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/phlog/phlog_http.php?m=1&q=_game.game-design-i for access over HTTP/HTML, although comments cannot be sent over HTTP.
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22:31:41 <zzo38> You did not type the comment yet?
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22:57:28 <zzo38> Are you out of comments? About anything at all?
22:58:18 <elliott> Gregor: Are JS users just stupid, or what? http://restrictmode.org/
23:00:35 <zzo38> I do not think is needed
23:01:04 <Gregor> elliott: Sounds like Crockford-style lunacy.
23:01:11 <pikhq> elliott: Unless restrict mode makes a JIT's job easier, there's probably no point.
23:01:22 <elliott> [[You're encouraged to "use strict"; "use restrict";]]
23:01:27 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, that might might be
23:01:27 <elliott> Isn't "use strict" also Crockford lunacy?
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23:02:01 <pikhq> And I *doubt* it does, because a JIT could rather readily handle those cases efficiently regardless...
23:02:33 <pikhq> I mean, most of those restrictions are restricting you to the common case.
23:03:44 * pikhq is somewhat annoyed that there's hardly any chance of there being a better language than Javascript for use in HTML.
23:11:51 <Sgeo> What about languages that compile to Javascript?
23:20:24 <zzo38> pikhq: You can compile other things into Javascript, or use Javascript preprocessors, but I think is better to avoid use of any script if it is not needed. It can slow down things, too, as well as sometimes it is disabled or using program that does not parse scripts.
23:27:02 <zzo38> Is there any kind of chess moves notation that uses one octet (or, usually one but sometimes two) for each move? I know the square position can be six bits. If you want to require counting all moves available and then select by number, there is enough in one byte. It is calculated:
23:27:58 <zzo38> 32 pawn + 16 knight + 26 bishop + 28 rook + 27 queen + 8 king + 2 castling. However, what if you promoted, then there is more? Then it won't fit in one byte. Also, adding castling is wrong because if you can castle, then king can't move backward. So, omit castling.
23:28:46 <zzo38> Therefore, it is still not correct.
23:31:44 <zzo38> But, note, the Amazon (queen+knight) can already move like any other pieces in chess, 13 for bishop, 14 for rook, 8 for knight.
23:32:33 <zzo38> And it is impossible in a game of chess, for promotion to occur without ever having capture occur before that in the game.
23:33:12 <zzo38> (Otherwise, the pawns will get stuck and can never reach the promotion rank)
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23:58:08 <cheater99> what if pawns jump over other pawns
23:58:30 <cheater99> say your pawn hasn't moved yet, it wants to move the two steps, can it jump over something to do that?
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00:16:49 <zzo38> cheater99: It is not allowed to jump.
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01:14:31 * pikhq wonders why nether minecart systems aren't popular
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01:17:35 <zzo38> Did you read the article about scoring in computer games?
01:18:28 <zzo38> You *cannot* use a single scoring system for all games; you have to change it.
01:25:40 <pikhq> Probably be nicer if you could ride a minecart in and out of the nether, though.
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01:45:52 <Fuco> well damnit I got the sockets in befunge working but I can't connect anywhere :(
01:51:14 <pikhq> Aaah, Colorado. Land of snow the day before Easter.
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01:51:28 <pikhq> Seriously, it's April 23rd and it's fucking snowing.
01:53:08 <zzo38> It doesn't snow today, in here.
01:53:36 <pikhq> And you're in Canada.
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02:26:35 <zzo38> Yes, I am in Canada.
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03:12:46 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Str_len/core wouldn't it have been easier just to add a magic thing for this...
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03:23:04 <Sgeo> elliott's little toe is made of magic
03:23:32 <elliott> shut the fuck up, birds outside. shut the fuck up.
03:23:50 <Sgeo> You've never seen/heard Magical Trevor?
03:25:07 <elliott> fuck X for breaking like that.
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04:02:30 <variable> Woot! I found a paper discussing my game of war question
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04:11:23 <zzo38> variable: You found paper? What is the answer?
04:11:49 <variable> zzo38: reading it now. It discussed a few things - I'm trying to find average case complexity
04:14:37 <variable> zzo38: darnit. It doesn't talk about complexity; I found one about its finiteness (which it claims can be made finite) and one about its limiting probability of a winning straegy
04:15:20 <variable> zzo38: http://arxiv.org/abs/1007.1371
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06:55:34 <pikhq> ... There's a distinction between "w" and "wh" in English?
06:55:40 <pikhq> This is complete and utter news to me.
06:55:56 <zzo38> pikhq: Depend on kind of pronounce. But, yes, it is.
07:05:14 <pikhq> Ah, apparently the large majority of American accents have merged the two.
07:06:42 <pikhq> That *does* explain why "white" gets transliterated as "howaito" in Japanese...
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07:25:11 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, of course that isn't the Japanese word for white, it is the Japanese word for the English word for white, sometimes used in compounds of loan words and stuff like that. I have seen it used, so I can confirm that it is the correct transliteration.
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07:30:25 <pikhq> zzo38: I did specify "transliterated", so. :)
07:30:47 <pikhq> Of course, the Japanese word for white is 白い (しろい) [shiroi].
07:32:50 <pikhq> Well, yeah, you do seem to know at least a bit of Japanese. But not all who read the chat do.
07:38:07 <pikhq> "Bishops agree sex abuse rules" As a speaker of American English, there is no way for this headline to parse as anything *but* comical.
07:38:50 <pikhq> Apparently in UK English, "agree" is transitive, allowing that to also be interpreted as "Bishops agree on sex abuse rules". But that interpretation does not come out of the parser-in-my-head at all.
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07:55:35 <pikhq> Gibraltar Airport has a runway with a *road intersecting it*.
07:56:12 <pikhq> They literally stop traffic on a 4-lane road so planes can take off.
07:59:11 <pikhq> Said runway is also the Spain/Gibraltar border.
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08:07:40 <Sgeo> Need to get to work on homework. At 4:06 AM. After having an entire week of no school to do everything.
08:08:56 <pikhq> Why, you almost sound like a college student there.
08:09:33 <pikhq> Sleep may be a good idea.
08:09:42 <pikhq> Indeed, 'twould seem to be a great idea.
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09:25:00 <Vorpal> pikhq (for log reading): yes the intersection at http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Gibraltar_Airport_panorama.jpg is pure awesome
09:25:08 <Vorpal> maybe they should build a tunnel though
09:30:15 <Vorpal> oh and nice how the same aicraft appears so many times in there
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09:54:41 <zzo38> Have you ever wanted to have any of the INTERCAL commands/operators in any circumstances in other programming languages?
09:59:10 <cheater99> why would wikipedia cite the same paper twice?
09:59:21 <cheater99> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_computing 41 == 4
09:59:34 <zzo38> Probably it is a mistake.
10:00:53 <cheater99> should separate citations refer to the same number?
10:01:00 <Vorpal> cheater99, same page number?
10:01:25 <cheater99> oh right, they are citing separate parts of the paper
10:04:51 <zzo38> Yes, that is it. I did not look at the article so I obviously did not notice
10:08:15 <cheater99> the citation notes actually mention that too
10:08:28 * cheater99 has not noticed, skipping over the contrived body of the text
10:11:32 <cheater99> hah one of the authors on this one other paper is Viral Shah
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10:54:34 <oklopol> "<Tomsik> Is there a language that doesn't let you name arguments to a function, forcing you to go pointfree?" <<< unlambda!
10:55:04 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes, I mentioned Unlambda, too.
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10:57:17 <oklopol> "<Tomsik> who want (f . g)(x) to be f (g x)" <<< some books do use postfix notation
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11:05:52 <oklopol> zzo38: yeah i noticed just after saying
11:06:43 <oklopol> zzo38: there's something called curry-howard-lambek correspondence for connecting types, logic and categories i think
11:07:07 <oklopol> you asked something like this i seem to recall
11:10:18 <oklopol> copumpkin: so far, no theorems proven on ##categorytheory
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11:16:04 <augur> do you know how to respond to disk-sectors being unable to be read?
11:17:07 <oklopol> be sure they install all the programs at the shop because that shit can be complicated
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11:26:42 <cheater99> http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft0f59n73z&chunk.id=d0e6438&toc.depth=1&toc.id=d0e6438&brand=ucpress
11:28:07 <zzo38> Finally, my tsumeshogi program will find all the moves that give check. But now it has to find the moves to get out of check, too.
11:32:41 <cheater99> zzo38: how many states are there in chess?
11:33:04 <zzo38> cheater99: I don't know. There are a lot, though.
11:34:04 <zzo38> I have never tried to calculate it.
11:34:41 <zzo38> Shogi has more, though. And Go has a lot more.
11:35:21 <cheater99> i think it's choose(32, 96) / number of cases where the different pieces can be swapped
11:36:21 <zzo38> I think you have failed to take into account many of the other rules of chess, such as promotion, castling, en passant, and so on.
11:36:59 <zzo38> And that is not all!
11:38:32 <zzo38> Then you must learn.
11:39:27 <oklopol> actually choose(32, 96) is 0 :P
11:39:40 <cheater99> # the capture can only be made at its first opportunity.
11:40:00 <zzo38> cheater99: You are refering to en passan?
11:40:05 <oklopol> cheater99: YOU MUST REALLY SUCK AT MATH!
11:40:18 <cheater99> zzo38: yes, this "at first opportunity" thing totally creates zillions of states
11:40:30 <cheater99> oklopol: no, i suck at using non-mathematical notation for mathematics.
11:40:49 <cheater99> oklopol: i wouldn't know which mathematic that would refer to.
11:41:02 <oklopol> i don't think there's significant knowledge of what chess positions are reachable past just counting all the possible board contentses
11:41:02 <cheater99> oklopol: which mathematic were you talking about?
11:41:33 <oklopol> cheater99: i was referring to the one where choose(32, 96) is 0. in the one where choose(32, 96) is, umm, a lot, i'm sure you're very good
11:42:08 <oklopol> cheater99: LOL zillion is not a number :D
11:42:13 <cheater99> oklopol: ok, i don't think i have used your mathematic a lot, i guess i have spent most of my time using other mathematics
11:42:44 <cheater99> it's the square root of a jillion.
11:42:45 <oklopol> cheater99: that's kind of a shame, this means if we ever want to discuss maths, we will have to relearn everything :\
11:43:02 <cheater99> oklopol: let's just talk about category theory then.
11:43:12 <oklopol> and i'm not sure i can live with choose(32, 96) being a lot!
11:43:31 <oklopol> i don't understand how it can be
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11:43:41 <oklopol> cheater99: oh wow it has implications that deep?
11:43:58 <cheater99> for you choose(32, 96) = 0 therefore you have no choice!
11:43:59 <oklopol> i would never have guessed it contradicts choice
11:44:13 <oklopol> MAYBE the axiom of foundation
11:44:24 <cheater99> i totally founded you with you mom
11:44:39 <oklopol> i actually just talked about how i was born with my mom today
11:45:17 <cheater99> did you mention things like "endofunctor"?
11:47:11 <cheater99> ok, i'm doing a collection of notes on parallel computation and algorithms..
11:47:19 <cheater99> i think i'll soon have to do notes-of-notes :-\
11:47:32 <cheater99> i'm not sure if this action will ever halt, though.
11:48:12 <oklopol> parallel algos are kinda gay aren't they
11:48:53 <cheater99> if by that you mean that one parallel algo will put its penis in the anus of another parallel algo of the same kind, then yes.
11:50:28 <oklopol> that's exactly what i mean
11:54:31 <cheater99> cool... i've just summarized the same book twice, without realizing.
11:54:38 <cheater99> fortunately enough i have summarized different parts of it.
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11:57:03 <oklopol> when you could be productarizing?`
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12:29:41 <cheater99> http://www.qwiki.com/q/#!/FROSTBURG
12:29:56 <cheater99> i like the fact of what it's talking about.
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12:58:51 <Ilari> Hmm... RIPE NCC burnrate seems to be about 110.5k addresses per day..
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13:02:19 <Ilari> APNIC in the end days burned through their pools at over ten times that rate (1.2M or so makes RIPE's 110.5k seem pretty small usage).
13:02:27 <Ilari> (per day that is).
13:05:53 <oerjan> <cheater99> i think it's choose(32, 96) / number of cases where the different pieces can be swapped
13:06:15 <oerjan> as oklopol said that's backwards, also don't you mean 64 rather than 96
13:06:27 <oerjan> + that extra state others mentioned
13:06:39 <cheater99> i define choose(x, y) as "choose x items from y items".
13:06:56 <oerjan> the usual order is the other way
13:07:16 <oerjan> no, that's what i was asking
13:08:24 <oerjan> i realized you need something for captured pieces, and 96 _might_ work for that
13:09:21 <cheater99> of course, this approach has countless problems.
13:09:29 <cheater99> as in, the whole approach altogether :D
13:09:39 <oerjan> oh also choose is usually assuming you consider all pieces swappable
13:10:38 <cheater99> i'm pretty bad with specifics when it comes to it, i'm usually good at general ideas and stuff like that
13:11:54 <oerjan> i've seen the other version with no swapping called "permutations"
13:11:58 <cheater99> http://cowichanp.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/lease-framework-for-embarrassingly-parallel-problems/ < heh, i like this
13:12:26 <cheater99> oerjan: yes, but permutations of a set have the same amount of items as the set
13:12:31 <oerjan> but in any case to _really_ count chess positions you probably need an ungodly mess of swapping and non-swapping stuff
13:12:33 <Ilari> Number of blocks burned this year: APNIC: 6.229. RIPE NCC: 1.025. ARIN: 0.741. LACNIC: 0.304. AfriNIC: 0.162. Number of /32s handed out this year: RIPE NCC: 1 364. ARIN: 803. LACNIC: 296. APNIC: 192. AfriNIC: 63.
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13:13:20 <oerjan> cheater99: um obviously you interpret the order of items as something specific depending on the problem's needs
13:13:48 <cheater99> i have not understood that last statement.
13:14:58 <oerjan> what i mean is the function that counts how many ways to pick k elements from n, with the order of choosing actually mattering, unlike for the usual meaning of choose
13:15:28 <Vorpal> elliott (for log reading): talking about size of inferno source code, being huge:
13:15:33 <Vorpal> 72Mlinux-2.6.38.4.tar.bz2
13:15:33 <Vorpal> 52Minferno-20100120.tgz
13:16:10 <Vorpal> elliott: and that includes the user space for inferno. Not so for the linux case
13:16:48 <Ilari> Totals: 8.461 blocks burnt, 2 718 /32s handed out.
13:17:06 <oerjan> cheater99: oh and promotions make things even more complicated since a pawn can potentially become 4 different pieces
13:17:32 <cheater99> but we're only talking about states
13:17:35 <Ilari> IPv4 blocks, IPv6 /32s.
13:17:44 <Vorpal> Ilari, what is the relative allocation rates for ipv6 between the RIRs?
13:17:52 <oerjan> cheater99: well the problem there is you can get more that two bishops, say
13:18:06 <Vorpal> Ilari, and how much did it speed up for them after APNIC ran out ov ipv4?
13:20:25 <Ilari> Total IPv6 allocations since APNIC ran out (a week): 102 /32 + 4324 /48s.
13:20:42 <oerjan> <cheater99> zzo38: yes, this "at first opportunity" thing totally creates zillions of states
13:21:26 <oerjan> not really, you only need 9 options for whether a pawn moved in that particular way last time and if so which
13:21:42 <Vorpal> Ilari, huge increase then?
13:21:51 <Vorpal> Ilari, did it affect the other RIRs rate too?
13:21:59 <Ilari> Well, this stuff is fourth quadrant to the max.
13:22:53 <Ilari> IPv4 blocks since then: 0.081
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13:42:10 <Ilari> Global IPv6 depletion: 0.027644%
13:44:33 <Ilari> RIR IPv6 depletion: 2.801%
13:49:05 <Ilari> 9 726 455 456 /48s allocated.
13:49:34 <Ilari> Heh, wonder how long it takes to break 10 billion /48s...
13:52:03 <Ilari> One super-large ISP and one large ISP and it is there.
13:53:43 <Ilari> Yes, Some ISPs have gotten /20s.
13:57:47 <zzo38> I know exactly what is wrong with the program; however, I cannot think of the way to correct it.
13:59:22 <Vorpal> <Ilari> Well, this stuff is fourth quadrant to the max. <-- btw, why is it called "fourth quadrant"?
14:02:25 <oerjan> um if this is a complex number or xy plane, then the quadrants are customarily numbered counterclockwise starting at the x > 0, y > 0 one
14:02:35 <Vorpal> oerjan, this is about statistics
14:02:43 <Vorpal> oerjan, ipv6 allocation rate.
14:03:20 <oerjan> maybe it's a star trek reference, they have those galaxy quadrants
14:03:39 <Vorpal> lets wait for Ilari to explain it
14:03:54 * Vorpal waits while new kernel builds
14:04:10 <oerjan> no let us speculate widely and then ban him for trolling when he disagrees with what we come up with
14:06:06 <Vorpal> oerjan, or maybe we could *gasp* google?
14:06:23 <oerjan> bringing out the big guns, are we?
14:06:48 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes, *looks for link*
14:06:55 <oklopol> deer are hunted using big guns
14:07:34 <oerjan> Ilari is a deer? that explains so much
14:07:38 <Vorpal> oerjan, this gun: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/GAU-8_meets_VW_Type_1.jpg
14:07:46 <Vorpal> the gun is the object behind the car
14:07:59 <Vorpal> it is one some sort of trolley
14:08:11 <oklopol> yeah i wasn't sure whether it was the car or the huge gun that's the gun so thanks for explaining
14:08:29 <Vorpal> oklopol, you are welcome
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15:15:44 <zzo38> I want to cast "Break Into Debugger" spell.
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15:18:56 <oerjan> zzo38: that reminds me of the ed stories
15:20:00 <oerjan> they managed to hack into the underlying implementation of reality
15:21:33 <oerjan> causing cosmic disaster
15:22:01 <zzo38> Other spell I want to cast is "Fourier Transform" and "Circling the Square" and "This is Not a Pipe".
15:23:10 <oerjan> fourier transform needs to be cast with some frequency
15:25:03 <cheater99> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlZq3ZDLkak&NR=1&feature=fvwp
15:28:51 <zzo38> But I also want to cast "Feign Visibility" and "Merciful to Gibbering Mouthers" and "Detect Detections" and "Fire to Water".
15:29:51 <zzo38> Do you know about any of these spells?
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15:31:33 <cheater99> well fire to water is fairly simple
15:31:35 <zzo38> I want a magic ring that changes its color to whatever you want it to be but has no other effects.
15:31:48 <ais523> I'm trying to figure out what "Feign Visibility" would do, but it sounds like a great spell
15:31:50 <oerjan> hm detect detections... maybe one could have a self-application spell that could be applied to any other
15:32:07 <ais523> oerjan: so it, umm, heals healing spells?
15:32:15 <zzo38> oerjan: I mean, like other spell in D&D game such as "Detect Evil", "Detect Lawful", and so on.
15:32:40 <ais523> oerjan: I think a diagonal argument proves that combined with pretty much any other metaspell, that spell can't exist
15:32:48 <cheater99> i am making a list of (embarassingly) parallel problems
15:32:53 <cheater99> anyone want to take a look at my notes?
15:33:10 <oerjan> ais523: hey you just need to disallow any function without a fixpoint (such as negation) :D
15:33:11 <zzo38> cheater99: Can you type a few examples here?
15:33:42 <ais523> oerjan: good point, although I can't think of any metaspells that have non-degenerate fixed points
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15:34:28 <oerjan> i wondered a long time ago if you could make a pure lambda calculus for something resembling logic if you did that...
15:34:34 <ais523> zzo38: can't you detect detection spells with a simple detect magic, combined with enough Spellcraft ranks to determine that the detections are level 1 divination spells?
15:34:59 <cheater99> zzo38: sure but they're about 6 print pages. can i paste in 6 print pages?
15:35:12 <zzo38> cheater99: No, just a few short examples.
15:35:12 <ais523> cheater99: you could use a pastebin
15:35:28 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, but this would be different, it can last longer and can see if they are such detection spells, whether or not they detect you, and so on.
15:35:39 <ais523> are you including problems that parallelise to map+fold, i.e. become O(log n) when parallelised rather than O(1)?
15:35:50 <ais523> I'm not sure if that counts as embarassingly parallel or not
15:36:09 <ais523> and there are other situations, like matrix multiplication, which is O(n) when parallelised (and O(n^2) sequentially)
15:36:36 <cheater99> ais523: i was just pasting as you typed that.
15:37:06 <oerjan> ais523: i recall i had this strange idea (a bit unmotivated but...) that you could have an LC model in which every function was uniquely determined by its set of fixed points
15:37:23 <oerjan> (i didn't prove you could, it was just an idea)
15:37:57 <cheater99> there's links to papers and books and stuff
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15:38:25 <ais523> oerjan: it works if the only type you have is the boolean
15:38:28 <cheater99> it's very unorderly, a lot of the stuff is just applications (i need real world applications a lot), in the end i'll sort applications by underlying problem
15:38:29 <ais523> at least at first order
15:38:31 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:38:34 <oerjan> it was based on noticing that it seemed to work for things like `kx and i
15:38:46 <oerjan> ais523: um this was untyped, definitely
15:38:50 <cheater99> if anyone has any other applications (especially in biotech research) i'm all ears
15:38:54 <ais523> oerjan: ah, OK, that's a little saner
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15:39:27 <ais523> if you mean the Unlambda sense of purely functional where the only thing functions can operate on are different functions
15:41:02 <zzo38> cheater99: I think the list is good enough so far. I also think, could some cellular automata such as game of life, be computed using convolution and lookup
15:41:04 <oerjan> elliott: they must have removed it
15:41:18 <cheater99> zzo38: keep em coming, any other ideas?
15:41:29 <oerjan> ais523: yes that was the idea
15:41:36 <zzo38> cheater99: Not at this time.
15:41:44 <ais523> oerjan: if that works, that's completely insane but beautiful
15:41:57 <ais523> cheater99: I haven't looked at it
15:41:59 <oerjan> cheater99: i know i'm just assuming he logreads
15:42:54 <ais523> Gregor: insane feature suggestion for glogbot: let stalker mode send as well as read, so there'd be no reason to ever log onto IRC at all
15:43:13 <cheater99> oerjan: Restate my assumptions: One, Mathematics is the language of nature. Two, Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. Three: If you graph the numbers of any system, patterns emerge.
15:43:17 <oerjan> cue banning glogbot in 3,2,...
15:44:04 <Gregor> ais523: elliott already suggested that :P
15:44:05 <cheater99> just a movie quote which you reminded me of.
15:44:12 <zzo38> Or else +q'ing glogbot instead of +b is also one way
15:44:31 <cheater99> let's pro-actively +q glogbot before elliott does it
15:45:10 <oerjan> cheater99: a bit early if they add something actually _useful_ for it to say...
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15:53:31 <oerjan> <oerjan> elliott: they must have removed it
15:54:08 -!- elliott_ has joined.
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15:59:32 <oerjan> ais523: for that matter i haven't proved that the usual lambda calculus beta-eta-equivalence doesn't have this property, either
16:00:30 <oerjan> hm ideally you should only need to look at the expressions composed from s and k
16:02:27 <zzo38> I wrote a program, I know exactly what is wrong with it but not sure the best way to correct it. Do you know how to do it?
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16:03:18 <Vorpal> zzo38, surely you realise you have to provide more details than that for us to be able to have any opinion on it
16:03:55 <Vorpal> elliott_, there are some things for you to log read.
16:04:04 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/LATI
16:04:05 <elliott_> i think i saw one thing. what are the others.
16:04:26 <Vorpal> elliott_, uh? a highlight about linux kernel size vs. inferno
16:04:39 <Vorpal> nothing else from me at least
16:05:01 <Vorpal> elliott_, I wonder how compressed linux kernel source can be a frigging 77 MB!
16:05:29 <ais523> Vorpal: there's a lot of it...
16:05:49 <Vorpal> ais523, yes but even so. It seems absurd
16:06:04 <zzo38> Vorpal: What is the size vs inferno? And what is the speed vs? etc?
16:06:41 <Vorpal> 72Mlinux-2.6.38.4.tar.bz2
16:06:41 <Vorpal> 52Minferno-20100120.tgz
16:06:52 <Vorpal> and inferno tarball includes user space too
16:07:14 <Vorpal> besides it is gzip, which on average doesn't compress as well as bzip2
16:08:03 <zzo38> Do you know how to correct my program? And then I can learn, and can do it myself too.
16:08:12 <Vorpal> zzo38, I can't read that program.
16:08:37 <Vorpal> it looks like tex, yet not
16:08:57 <Vorpal> there is so much info you need to provide
16:09:00 <Vorpal> what is wrong with it, and where
16:09:59 <zzo38> What is wrong, is that of the move sequences are wrong not all scores are equal, yet it will display anyways, it needs to somehow keep the list of only the correct sequences so that it can ignore the others.
16:11:21 <zzo38> I was wonder if anyone knows how to program these kind of thing, so that I can learn, too, and correct it.
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16:12:26 <zzo38> Vorpal: If you do not know, do you know if someone else knows?
16:12:42 <Vorpal> or maybe try elliott_ ;)
16:13:24 <zzo38> ais523: Do you know?
16:13:40 <ais523> zzo38: let me look at hte program
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16:15:30 <ais523> zzo38: that code's a bit long for me to find a problem in
16:15:47 <zzo38> ais523: I described what is wrong already.
16:16:02 <ais523> yep, but knowing what a problem is and finding it in the program are two different things
16:16:30 <zzo38> OK, it is the |analysis| subroutine that is causing this problem.
16:18:12 <ais523> zzo38: I think you might need to add in penalties for time-wasting, so to speak
16:18:30 <ais523> because that sort of analysis works best if you have scores in between the maximum and minimum, as well as the maximum and minimum themselves
16:18:53 <ais523> also, "if(score==checkmate) score=mv" looks wrong to me, although I'm not sure as I can't follow the code too well
16:20:14 <zzo38> No, it seems to work. The problem is what I described before, that some sequences of moves do not always contain the correct score for all moves in the sequence, which should not be considered valid and not be displayed. Then it will display only some moves in the sequence, when it should display none of them.
16:21:58 <ais523> wouldn't it be simplest to just not display such sequences, then, rather than trying to remove them earlier?
16:22:01 <zzo38> The chunk titled "Deal with recording after the move" makes those decisions but it should need help a bit...
16:22:21 <zzo38> ais523: It displays one move at a time, is why.
16:24:33 <zzo38> The paragraph starting "After every move, ..." should explain what "if(score==checkmate) score=mv" is for, hopefully.
16:26:21 <zzo38> Can you understand a bit better now? Or do you still don't know?
16:27:10 <ais523> oh, I didn't realise the chunks were actual code, I thought it was just things-you-hadn't-written-yet pseudocode
16:28:07 <impomatic> Cool, computer in ><> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fish#Computus :-)
16:29:53 <zzo38> Now you know when is Easter Sunday? I think it is today.
16:30:31 <impomatic> Today? Why haven't I received any eggs?
16:31:36 <zzo38> impomatic: I don't know why.
16:35:19 <zzo38> ais523: Now does it help that you know about that?
16:37:36 <oerjan> absolutely today, the neighborhood café was closed :(
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17:09:03 <cheater99> ais523: have you perhaps had time to have a look yet?
17:09:10 <elliott_> -MemoServ- You are not logged in.
17:09:38 <ais523> elliott_: how do I ghost someone without knowing their password?
17:09:43 * oerjan has no idea how to ghost another person's nick
17:09:53 <ais523> oerjan: /msg nickserv ghost username password
17:09:55 <elliott_> ais523: well someone very helpfully did it for me a few days ago
17:10:02 <oerjan> ais523: _another_ person
17:10:07 <ais523> oerjan: thus the password at the end
17:10:13 <ais523> if you're ghosting your own nick, you don't need the password
17:10:14 <cheater99> oerjan: you just need the password.
17:10:17 <ais523> so long as you're identified
17:10:56 <oerjan> obviously i was asking an equivalent question to "without the password"
17:11:33 <oerjan> elliott_: are you _sure_ that event was not just a coincidence?
17:11:35 <ais523> well, obviously you shouldn't be able to do that
17:11:54 <ais523> an oper could k-line someone, which would have much the same effect
17:11:59 <ais523> but k-lining ghosts seems like overkill
17:12:02 <oerjan> actually i sort of recall seeing "nick collision" then
17:12:04 <elliott_> oerjan: it said killed by services, and as I can't type my password without my number keys, it couldn't possibly have been me!
17:12:32 <oerjan> well i guess someone may know a hack
17:12:38 <ais523> elliott_: could you change your password?
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17:12:49 <elliott_> ais523: not without typing my current one
17:12:53 <ais523> and 0123456789 you can copy-paste from that to type your current one
17:13:19 <elliott_> & as I've said, I *can't* do that! (#1 thing I can't do)
17:13:33 <oerjan> elliott_: this is obviously your karma for using a password written only using the number row >:D
17:13:40 <elliott_> not even if i put $999 towards it
17:13:53 <ais523> and, hmm, there are numbers in your last few comments
17:14:48 <ais523> oerjan: there are numbers in your comment too!
17:15:17 <elliott_> ais523: if you haven't realised by now, I used all number-row punctuation there :)
17:15:38 <ais523> I misse the punctuation
17:15:50 <ais523> but then, I didn't know for certain that the keys didn't work shifted
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17:17:36 <oerjan> i am now going to suspect elliott of having done the ghosting himself, back when
17:18:13 <cheater99> hey guys, general question, if i want to write a bijective function and have the language be able to automatically find the inverse, what do i need to do? what does the language need to be?
17:18:26 <oerjan> and having made up the whole keyboard thing from the start
17:18:35 <oerjan> just lightly suspect, mind you
17:18:57 <elliott_> or _maybe_ I'm not /that/ devious and just used a virtual keyboard
17:19:08 <oerjan> cheater99: well a reversible language might be nice for it...
17:19:13 <elliott_> after all, I've been painstakingly typing out numbers in private messages, I'm not that much of a chump for a prank ;D
17:19:23 <elliott_> "That is an absolutely preposterous amount of Daves."
17:19:29 <elliott_> <ais523> but then, I didn't know for certain that the keys didn't work shifted
17:19:35 <elliott_> if they did, it would be a software problem
17:19:41 <elliott_> since shift is a separate scancode thing
17:19:54 <cheater99> oerjan: you mean like befunge or something?
17:19:57 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:19:58 <ais523> elliott_: not necessarily, the mistake could be in the keyboard controller somewhere
17:20:00 <HackEgo> 148) <coppro> what's the data of? [...] <Sgeo> Locations in a now deceased game called Mutation <coppro> I have no problems with you being interested in online games <coppro> but the necrophilia is disturbing
17:20:02 <ais523> cheater99: that isn't reversible
17:20:13 <oerjan> cheater99: befunge isn't reversible, but the wiki has a category for reversible computing
17:20:50 <zzo38> I think Befreak is meant to be based on Befunge but reversible, there are also other 2-D reversible program languages
17:21:35 <oerjan> mind you this essentially amounts to having to write the function in such a way that it is easily reversible, so it might not actually help you if you have a _genuine_ function inversion problem
17:21:53 <oerjan> in which case probably try a computer algebra system
17:22:09 <elliott_> more like a pomcuter salgebra ystem
17:22:30 * oerjan gets not the reference
17:22:38 <zzo38> Including: 2D-Reverse BackFlip Befreak Reversible-2D Ora Memfractal
17:22:47 <elliott_> mour yum goesn't det re theference
17:23:18 <elliott_> I forget, did oerjan ever decide if a language where reverse(P) = P caret -one was possible or not?
17:23:29 <elliott_> I think I decided it was, with two-character commands
17:24:04 <oklopol> yeah elliott_, try answering that
17:24:51 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott_> I forget, did oerjan ever decide if a language where reverse(P) = P caret -one was possible or not?
17:25:12 <cheater99> here's a usecase: say i have something that parses xml and turns it into json
17:25:18 <oerjan> elliott_: i still think you could select single self-inverse command characters as a basis for that
17:25:24 <cheater99> i want to automatically get something that takes that json and parses it back to xml
17:26:08 <elliott_> if we have valid function decl syntaxes as "foo { ... } oof" and "foo } ... { oof"...
17:26:12 <oklopol> cheater99: be interested in more interesting things
17:26:33 <oerjan> elliott_: it would be a variant of cpressey's language that i forget the name of
17:26:35 <cheater99> oklopol: that is very interesting, you suck
17:26:47 <oerjan> oh hm he had nesting which was a bit of a problem
17:27:31 <oerjan> although nesting itself doesn't prevent the reverse(P)=P^-1 property, just making it out of single commands
17:28:48 <oerjan> cheater99: i once saw a post somewhere about someone making bidirectional parsers, i think in haskell
17:29:10 <cheater99> oerjan: but i don't think a bidirectional parser is what we're looking for here
17:29:16 <elliott_> i talked with someone about that in hash-haskell.
17:29:19 <cheater99> i don't think it's enough to just play the source backwards.
17:29:23 <elliott_> it turns out that the kind of parsers that can do that are pretty limited.
17:29:31 <oerjan> cheater99: your xml -> json case would be one...
17:29:38 <elliott_> so basically it's a waste of time.
17:29:48 <cheater99> oerjan: oh, i thought what you mean was this source code reversal thing
17:30:10 <oerjan> no, i meant genuinely writing parsers that could transform both ways
17:30:21 <oklopol> maybe you could use prolog
17:30:34 <oerjan> prolog is also nice for that yeah
17:30:37 <oklopol> because prolog backwards is golorp
17:30:57 <cheater99> oklopol: i'm sorry, talking to oerjan who finds my parser idea interesting
17:31:23 <oerjan> although neither of these methods relieve you having to write the original parser in a way that makes it at least somewhat easily reversed
17:31:39 <ais523> elliott_: # is shift-3 for you, not to the right of '?
17:31:41 <cheater99> oerjan: i think it would be necessary to build a language that uses inherently symmetrical constructs
17:31:50 <cheater99> for example, instead of replacement of strings, swapping of strings
17:31:56 <oerjan> cheater99: prolog does that
17:32:31 <oklopol> cheater99: oerjan is doing it sarcastically though
17:33:07 <cheater99> oklopol: only if sarcasm === true interest
17:34:10 <oerjan> cheater99: in prolog you write predicates instead of functions, and they don't need to distinguish which argument is input and which is output.
17:34:58 <oerjan> if written right you can go either way. unfortunately sometimes you need to sacrifice that for efficiency.
17:35:35 <cheater99> oerjan: i was wondering if haskell's approach where you define computation by saying what things are, as opposed to how to compute them, could be good enough
17:35:58 <cheater99> say if i have f x = 2*x it's obviously trivial to invert
17:36:56 <oerjan> cheater99: prolog's fits better i think, because in haskell you cannot treat argument and result equally
17:37:10 <cheater99> if i have f :: [Char] -> String, f x:xs = "" ++ x ++ f xs, i wonder how that's inversible
17:37:33 <cheater99> (this type def might be wrong, i'm still not that good with hs)
17:37:36 <oerjan> cheater99: you're missing parentheses around x:xs
17:38:57 <cheater99> now if i wanted to write that in prolog, how would i do that?
17:39:06 <oerjan> cheater99: that f is either concat (if the type is wrong) or id (if the ++ f xs should be : f xs)
17:39:23 <oerjan> (ignoring the missing empty set case)
17:39:31 <oerjan> and concat isn't invertible
17:39:39 <cheater99> oh, wait, in haskell strings are list of characters
17:40:27 <cheater99> f :: [Char] -> [Char], f (x:xs) = x:'_':(f xs)
17:41:20 <cheater99> so this is a bijection from strings to s_t_r_i_n_g_s_.
17:42:17 <oerjan> > intersperse '_' "strings"
17:43:20 <cheater99> so how do i express this in prolog?
17:44:39 <oerjan> something like f([],[]). f([X|Xs],[X|['_'|Ys]]) :- f(Xs,Ys).
17:44:47 <ais523> intersperse(_,[],[]). intersperse(C,[H|T],[H,C|T2]) :- intersperse(C, T, T2).
17:44:49 <oerjan> i don't recall the character syntax
17:45:36 <oerjan> or that you could put more than one item before the |
17:46:11 <oerjan> also it wasn't intersperse, he said :D
17:48:57 <oerjan> and that prolog predicate would allow you to go either way. if you fed it intersperse(x, X, [s,x,t,x,r,x,i,x,n,x,g,x]) as a question it would give X = [s,t,r,i,n,g] out
17:50:57 <oerjan> or even intersperse(C, X, [s,x,t,x,r,x,i,x,n,x,g,x]) should give C=x, X=[s,t,r,i,n,g]
17:51:45 <oerjan> while intersperse(C, X, [s,x,t,y]) would respond "No." for no answer.
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18:02:26 <cheater99> does this mean that prolog is the ultimate language for form validation?
18:04:49 <oerjan> well it should work well enough...
18:05:36 <oerjan> actually this style might not be very good for giving good error messages when the form _isn't_ valid
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18:40:54 <Gregor> elliott_: OpenWatcom has its own clib on Linux :P
18:41:06 <elliott_> Is that a really retarded way of saying libc?
18:41:23 <Gregor> Oh yeah, sorry, it's the DOS/Watcom/lolthiscompilerisolde way of saying that >_>
18:41:53 <Gregor> Mind you, this compiler is garbagetastic, but hey, it's got its own non-GNU libc :P
18:44:58 <elliott_> Gregor: How terrible is the libc? :P
18:45:37 <Gregor> Well, it has malloc, but it doesn't have MAP_ANON ...
18:46:02 <Gregor> Which isn't a particularly broad measurement, but it's what I figured out :P
18:46:13 <Gregor> Oh, and before you ask, of COURSE it's 32-bit only.
18:46:59 <elliott_> Gregor: How's it compare to musl X-D
18:47:32 <Gregor> Donno, haven't tried musl.
18:48:09 <elliott_> Gregor: It's like every non-GNU libc ever, except ten times better :P http://www.etalabs.net/compare_libcs.html
18:48:29 <elliott_> In that it's actually pretty objectively superior to glibc in both performance /and/ size.
18:49:01 <elliott_> I would be pretty surprised if OpenWatcom's was better :P
18:49:10 <Gregor> License? And yeah, it's almost assuredly better than OpenWatcom's :P
18:49:46 <Gregor> But number one reason to mention it was this trololol:
18:49:47 <Gregor> $ file rel2/lib386/linux/clib3r.lib
18:49:47 <Gregor> rel2/lib386/linux/clib3r.lib: Microsoft Visual C library
18:50:16 <elliott_> Gregor: License is on that page, LGPL two point one plus :P
18:50:59 <Gregor> Not GPL+lol_I_dont_get_licenses like dietlibc at least.
18:51:36 <elliott_> And it has things like threads and locales (although just C.UTF-[eight] for now).
18:51:45 <elliott_> And a faster stdio than glibc.
18:52:08 <Gregor> GPL_lol_I_dont_get_licenses: Worst license ever?
18:53:52 <elliott_> Gregor: Apart from the Microsoft Sperm-Ownership Communal Source Redistribution License, yes.
18:54:46 <Gregor> That's an Apple license.
18:55:14 <elliott_> Gregor: Your denial is palatable, ex-shill.
18:55:18 <elliott_> (Can you even be an EX-shill???????)
18:56:30 <Gregor> Your lexical failure is palatable.
18:57:38 <oerjan> i thought we had established that to Gregor, nothing is palatable
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18:58:40 <Sgeo> I made an online purchase WITHOUT MY DAD'S INVOLVEMENT!
18:59:05 <elliott_> I AM SCARED OF THIS BURGEONING NEW AGE OF SGEO NOT BEING A COMPLETE SLAVE
18:59:08 <ais523> I don't get the acronym OMGWTFBBQ
18:59:20 <ais523> as in, I understand why it stands for, just not why what it stands for is useful
18:59:20 <elliott_> ais523: oh my god what the fuck barbecue
18:59:25 <Gregor> ais523: Oh my God, what the??? Fuck a barbeque!
18:59:26 <Sgeo> Just the latest humble bundle
18:59:33 <Sgeo> I don't have much money in my PayPal account
18:59:35 <ais523> elliott_: no, as that isn't what I was having trouble with
18:59:40 <oerjan> ais523: it's a meta-joke on acronyms duh
18:59:44 <Sgeo> And I'm still having difficulty transfering Second Life funds to it
18:59:45 <elliott_> ais523: Do you also not get XXXXXXX99XX9XX9eleventyoneXX999? Where X is an exclamation mark and 9 is one.
18:59:50 <elliott_> Because it's basically the same thing.
18:59:54 <ais523> elliott_: it's funnier the way you wrote it
19:00:02 <ais523> it's a parody of acronyms
19:00:14 <elliott_> It's a ridiculously over-the-top expression of surprise :P
19:01:08 <oerjan> elliott_: I CONSIDER IT ENTIRELY APPROPRIATE IN THIS CIRCUMSTANCE
19:01:30 <Gregor> If it's used sarcastically, why have I been wasting my time fucking all these barbeques!
19:01:36 * oerjan checks cheater99's bingo sheet
19:01:46 <elliott_> Gregor: 'cuz it's soooo goooood.
19:02:07 <Sgeo> Well, actually, my dad was indirectly involved
19:02:07 <ais523> Gregor: I don't think that can ever be described as a total waste of time...
19:02:29 <elliott_> ais523: Because it's... worthwhile?
19:02:34 <Sgeo> He did give me money for the mall, and I bought the Amex gift card at the mall
19:02:57 <Sgeo> But now I can use PayPal for stuff!
19:03:07 <oerjan> Gregor: what i want to ask is whether they were in use at the time
19:03:25 <Sgeo> The Trine trailer's music is beautiful
19:09:27 <Gregor> <oerjan> Gregor: what i want to ask is whether they were in use at the time // one could say I was "using" them.
19:09:45 <Gregor> I was "cooking" a "sausage" at the OK I'm done, no more of this.
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19:12:59 <Gregor> Smallest static C program 0.4k
19:13:26 <Gregor> Mind, dietlibc is smaller, but I didn't realize anything could make GCC spit out a <1K binary :P
19:14:01 <elliott_> Gregor: dietlibc is smaller by way of sucking at everything :P
19:14:14 <elliott_> Quicksort? Linear stack usage hurp durp that sounds sane and reasonable
19:15:40 <Gregor> Both are smaller than a disk block :P
19:16:44 <calamari> you can do a decent amount in 512 bytes
19:17:30 <calamari> I wonderi f they still do those 512b demos (among other sizes)
19:17:31 <elliott_> Yeah, like exit without doing anything in C :P
19:19:38 <calamari> elliott_: were' you writing another 512 byte os?
19:19:51 <elliott_> well that forth almost has a compiler now :D
19:19:58 <elliott_> it gets worked on approximately once per week :P
19:27:55 <Sgeo> There's supposed to be a legit MC trial, right?
19:28:01 <Sgeo> I can't seem to get it to work
19:28:04 <elliott_> There's a shitty demo, but you're better off pirating.
19:28:08 <elliott_> It's just the game limited to 90 minutes.
19:28:36 <Sgeo> elliott_, I just want to double-check that the thing with the mouse will be ok in the legit version
19:28:45 <Sgeo> I'll probably buy it 5 minutes after I see that
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19:41:48 <Sgeo> Whyn must Minecraft make my computer a bitch?
19:43:35 <oerjan> ITYM "Minecraft Y U *hit by falling anvil*
19:44:12 <elliott_> copumpkin: Have you seen this: Oh no! I was the original author of data-accessor, and then I passed it over to Henning and stopped paying attention. The a -> r -> (a,r) representation also makes me uncomfortable, and my original implementation was just like your Lens type. Heeennnninngg!! – luqui 51 mins ago
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20:44:21 <Vorpal> elliott_, hey the automatic transparent huge page stuff in 2.6.38 makes a difference for minecraft performance
20:44:39 <Vorpal> elliott_, I'm somewhat surprised it is noticable
20:44:55 <Vorpal> elliott_, I guess that indicates that java has *really* poor locality of reference
20:45:05 <Vorpal> elliott_, oh and that the TLB cache on this CPU is tiny
20:45:48 <Vorpal> elliott_, what kernel are you on?
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20:53:56 <elliott_> copumpkin: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5767129/lenses-fclabels-data-accessor-which-library-for-structure-access-and-mutation
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20:59:16 <impomatic> Has anyone made a scratch hologram?
20:59:41 <elliott_> That sounds far more awesome in my mind than what you actually mean.
21:00:25 <impomatic> Like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtmGgmhWBAc
21:00:50 <impomatic> Some of these are pretty good http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUy8lELWhJg
21:01:04 <Sgeo> I guess that person id
21:02:04 <oerjan> scratch and fnarf-o-gram
21:09:38 <impomatic> Looks impressive... I'm planning to try it this week.
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21:44:16 <lament> yeah, i always had problems with the 'dying' conduct
21:44:30 <elliott_> I keep ascending. It's soooo annoying.
21:46:47 <lament> that was my problem with nethack and the reason i stopped playing
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00:37:19 <tswett_56> Today, I learned my rank. It's 56.
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00:40:08 <tswett_56> My rank in #jbopre, according to djanatyn.
00:40:35 <elliott> What on earth is that thing.
00:40:43 <elliott> Something Lojban-related, presumably.
00:40:53 <elliott> It means "lojbanist", it seems.
00:41:17 <elliott> oklopol: paste reactions plz
00:41:18 <oklopol> esperanto is just spanish with a diarrhea
00:41:26 <elliott> `addquote <oklopol> esperanto is just spanish with a diarrhea
00:41:30 <HackEgo> 380) <oklopol> esperanto is just spanish with a diarrhea
00:41:47 <oklopol> disclaimer: i don't actually know what esperato is like
00:41:49 <tswett_56> Yo puedo diarrhea hablar en diarrhea esperanto.
00:42:06 <oklopol> i can diarrhea speak in diarrhea esperanto?
00:42:07 <tswett_56> oklopol: lo estoy haciendo correctamente?
00:42:28 <oklopol> this is being done correctly
00:42:54 <oklopol> excellent, thank you my sweetheart
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00:43:22 <oklopol> is ayuda something to do with listening
00:43:36 <tswett_56> That would be "Y tú marques la pregunta".
00:44:28 <tswett_56> Y ahora puedo usar acentos. Vóy á ponérlos pór tóda párte.
00:45:07 <oklopol> and now i can use accents. i'm going to go to every party.
00:45:14 <oerjan> and you're pregnant on the mark
00:45:44 <tswett_56> Voy a asistir a cada fiesta. Y eres embarazado en el marque.
00:45:51 <oklopol> i actually even understood the word pregunta in spanish speech today
00:46:03 <tswett_56> I'm pretty sure that in Spanish, "atender" is "to assist" and "asistir" is "to attend".
00:46:14 <tswett_56> Which makes sense, if you think about it.
00:46:33 <oklopol> i'm going to assist in the creation of an awesome party. and you are so embarrassed in the marks!
00:47:09 <oklopol> [03:43:59] <tswett_56> Hi, elliott. Bye, elliott.
00:47:09 <oklopol> [03:44:10] <tswett_56> Meet elliott, whose rank is, like, 81 or something.
00:47:09 <oklopol> [03:46:18] <oklopol> yeah elliott is a famous bisexual
00:47:26 <oerjan> don't disturb the translator
00:47:34 <tswett_56> Voy a atender a la creación de una fiesta excelente. ¡Y tú tienes tantas vergüenzas en las marques!
00:47:41 <tswett_56> elliott: no, your rank is 2 at the highest.
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00:48:16 <tswett_56> From now on, whenever possible, I shall write every word in suomi.
00:48:22 <tswett_56> As you can tell, I don't know very many suomen words.
00:48:27 <oklopol> no, tu ranco es en las maximos dos!
00:48:56 <tswett_56> Tu ranco es dos a lo máximo, I think.
00:49:17 <tswett_56> I don't know. That might not mean "rank" like that.
00:49:34 <tswett_56> Here we go. "Word" is "sana", so...
00:49:45 <oklopol> suomen sanat = finnish words
00:49:46 <tswett_56> mad: "al" in Spanish is a contraction for "a el".
00:50:08 <tswett_56> Now if I can just learn the rest of Finnish.
00:51:05 <oerjan> you forgot to translate "the" into the correct ""
00:51:11 <oklopol> i'd actually say loput suomen kielest, "the ends from finland's language"
00:52:02 <oklopol> you meant the because you have rest
00:52:19 <tswett_56> I have to opetella loput suomen kielestä, or summat.
00:52:54 <mad> how does suomi decline?
00:52:55 <oerjan> this reminds me about a norwegian joke about how the french pronounce "høst" (norw. for autumn)
00:53:28 <oerjan> h is silent, st is silent at the end of words, and ø doesn't exist, so: ""
00:54:01 <mad> oerjan: it's ts that's silent at the end of words
00:54:12 <tswett_56> Yeah, what's the genitive of minä?
00:54:23 <oklopol> minun, mun, meikn, meitsin, meiklisen, miun, mu
00:54:39 <oklopol> in all seriousness you write minun, usually say mun
00:54:40 <mad> I can't think of a french word ending in st
00:54:41 <oerjan> hm i guess it's not silent in ouest
00:54:54 <tswett_56> elliott: it turns out your ranking is 82.5.
00:55:11 <tswett_56> Minun pitää opetella loput suomen kielestä, then?
00:55:27 <oerjan> mad: it's silent in "est", though :D
00:55:37 <mad> oerjan: some dialects might say "oues" but it's variable
00:55:53 <mad> oerjan: if you mean to be instead of east yeah :D
00:56:17 <tswett_56> I ought to learn how to conjugate some common stuff.
00:56:39 <tswett_56> Minä on... is it on? There was some nice and simple way to conjugate this stuff.
00:57:10 <tswett_56> The negation verb is conjugated ei, et, en in the singular present, right?
00:57:13 <oklopol> olla => olen olet on olemme olette ovat
00:57:31 <tswett_56> And then if I can remember that one word...
00:57:41 <oklopol> en, et, ei, emme, ette, eivt
00:58:18 <mad> I might have to come up with a new morphological type for my conlang :(
00:59:18 <mad> I'll have to group a lot of inflections together into a single syllable
00:59:19 <tswett_56> And I should learn the connegatives, I guess.
00:59:27 <mad> dunno if any real language does that
00:59:41 <oklopol> "oletko sin koira" is how you ask if i'm a dog, "sin olet koira?" works just like "you are a dog?" works in english toh
00:59:56 <oerjan> mad: um any indoeuropean languages with intact case systems?
01:00:09 <tswett_56> Midun äiti estas... drat, I went into Esperanto.
01:00:36 <oerjan> case, number and gender usually give just one syllable combined
01:00:53 <oklopol> even oerjan can correct that sentence
01:01:07 <mad> oerjan: eh, yeah, that's not quite false
01:01:11 <tswett_56> Sweet, the connegatives here are all the same.
01:01:31 <tswett_56> Minä ei ole koira. Sinä et ole koira. elliott en ole koira.
01:01:35 <oerjan> mad: well not one syllable in all combinations
01:01:40 <elliott> I DON'T RESPOND TO PUNGS IN THIS CHANEL
01:01:40 <oklopol> tswett_56: you have those backwards
01:02:00 <mad> I kinda want to combine verb subject/object/transitivity/copula/benefactive/locative, roll them together into one verbal prefix
01:02:03 <oerjan> tswett_56: erm what you don't believe oklopol do you?
01:02:24 <tswett_56> oerjan: of course I do. He outranks you.
01:02:36 <tswett_56> oklopol: are you saying en is first-person and ei is third-?
01:02:58 <oerjan> mad: well you have a problem with information density, you could of course have a lot of phonemes to help...
01:03:01 <oklopol> also my mom is minun itini or mun iti
01:03:25 <tswett_56> Minä en ole koira. elliott ei ole koira. Minun äitini on koira.
01:03:31 <mad> oerjan: yeah was thinking of having lots of vowels and some tones but simple syllable structure
01:03:35 <elliott> i don't respond to pugs in this coco chanel
01:03:46 <mad> like, at least 14 vowels (if you count nasals)
01:04:07 <tswett_56> Ah, -ni is that possessive suffix thing.
01:04:36 <mad> should be able to get a few thousand syllables
01:04:53 <tswett_56> And now I need some more nouns, I think.
01:04:58 <oklopol> prolly wouldn't say that in speech tho
01:05:09 <oklopol> you'd say mun iti on koira
01:05:15 <mad> the real problem is not information density (with syllables that huge), it's coming up with a morphology that doesn't blow up
01:05:49 <tswett_56> Finnish either has a perfect speech-writing correspondence or the worst one imaginable.
01:05:49 <mad> the syllables are huge and not particularly flexible so it's really hard to do lots of affixation like agglutinative language
01:06:28 <oklopol> rather perfect, or at least consistent
01:06:37 <mad> and afaik most real languages with this kind of phonologic systems (huge syllables but simple syllable structure) are ultra isolating
01:07:07 <mad> so if I want affixes I absolutely have to roll them together into simple syllablees
01:07:11 <tswett_56> "How do you pronounce 'olen'?" "Oh, that's pronounced 'oon'." "How about 'minä'?" "That's 'mä'."
01:07:34 <oklopol> no you pronounce "olen" as "olen"
01:07:42 <oklopol> and you pronounce "min" as "min"
01:07:51 <mad> is it "mineh"?
01:07:58 <oerjan> mad: you know 14 vowels is fewer than what swedish and norwegian has if you include length. but neither has much heaping on of inflections.
01:08:26 <mad> oerjan: but those languages have flexible syllable structure
01:08:57 <mad> oerjan: also they cheat (they combine with length)
01:09:20 <oklopol> kuvalla on koiran symisest huonoja kokemuksia
01:09:31 <oerjan> LENGTH IS A RESPECTABLE QUALITY
01:09:41 <tswett_56> Something is dog something something something?
01:09:45 <mad> yeah I might put in length too, I'm not sure
01:09:52 <mad> depends on how it interplays with tone
01:09:56 <oklopol> huonoja kokemuksi a= bad experiences
01:10:20 <tswett_56> Picture is dog something bad experiences?
01:10:30 <tswett_56> Is "koiran" the accusative or the genitive here?
01:11:03 <mad> But there's a huge chance I go with something like /a e i o u @ M/ then add probably at least /2 y/, maybe /E O/, maybe-perhaps more
01:11:05 <oklopol> the picture has bad experiences on eating dogs
01:11:10 <mad> plus nasal versions of like every vowel
01:11:14 <oerjan> mad: also they have pitch accents :)
01:11:27 <tswett_56> Okay, kuvalla must be... is that another genitive?
01:11:47 <mad> oerjan: ha yeah, it's like lots of falling tones everywhere :D
01:12:07 <tswett_56> Adessive... does that generally mean "at"?
01:13:06 <tswett_56> And then syömisestä is some eating thing..
01:13:46 <oerjan> syömi looks like some weird umlauted version of suomi...
01:14:09 <tswett_56> That looks like some weird umlauted version of "suominen".
01:14:15 <tswett_56> What the heck is a "suominen", anyway?
01:14:50 <oklopol> why would you know that's a diminutive suffix
01:15:08 <tswett_56> I noticed that Finns' surnames mean stuff, so I looked them up.
01:15:15 <oklopol> bonus points if you know less used diminutive suffices
01:15:16 <tswett_56> I found that most of them describe places and end in either la or nen.
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01:17:33 <mad> subject/object/transitivity/copula/benefactive gives around ~70 combinations
01:18:17 <mad> If I separate animate/inanimate gender more then the combinations go up a bit
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01:18:31 <mad> And if I include locative then the combinations double
01:19:03 <tswett_56> "Kuvalla on koiran syömisestä huonoja kokemuksia". And "syöminen" is eating, so... I guess that's then declined.
01:20:23 <tswett_56> At the picture is of a dog from eating . . .
01:20:29 <Lymia> What language is that?
01:20:36 <tswett_56> Finns sure do milk these declensions for all they're worth, don't they. :P
01:20:47 <mad> lymia: finnlandificatish
01:20:56 <elliott> finnlandificatish. the best language
01:21:12 <mad> the language of fennecs?
01:21:41 <oerjan> mad: stop reading my mind
01:21:48 <tswett_56> And it looks like "huonoja" is the partitive plural, and so is "kokemus", so you've got "bad experience" in the partitive plural.
01:22:08 <mad> everyone likes foxes
01:22:20 <tswett_56> And I guess the partitive is what makes it "has had" or whatever instead of "is having" or "had at some point" or something.
01:22:46 <tswett_56> How am I supposed to understand that. :|
01:23:03 <oklopol> "<tswett_56> In the... elative?" yes
01:23:32 <Lymia> This sounds more complicated than Japanese!
01:23:53 <mad> lymia: at least they tell you who is doing what
01:24:04 <mad> japanese is like
01:24:37 <mad> [where] [when] [verb] [how the talker feels about it] [degree of politeness]
01:24:57 <mad> notice the absence of subject or object
01:25:51 <mad> lymia: Case languages are crazy anyways
01:26:29 <Lymia> Look at that giant word.
01:26:42 <tswett_56> The Finnish for "okay, on to more difficult stuff" is "vaikealle", right?
01:26:53 <tswett_56> Lymia: don't worry, "hauamaisapostuandastandat" isn't a real word.
01:27:06 <oklopol> tswett_56: no, you can't really say that
01:27:15 <oklopol> Lymia: hauamaisapostuandastandat is english
01:27:16 <oerjan> høyesterettsjustitiarius
01:27:32 <tswett_56> "Yhdeksänkymmentäkahdeksan" is a real Finnish word, though.
01:27:46 <tswett_56> "Yhdeksänkymmentäkahdeksan" is the Finnish for what, in Lojban, is "li sobi".
01:28:03 <oklopol> yhdeksllekymmenellekahdeksallekohan
01:28:09 <tswett_56> And that Lojban is being slightly verbose. The base form is just "sobi"; "li" turns it into a DP.
01:28:23 <mad> what's the english translation
01:28:56 <tswett_56> oklopol: what does that mean? "I wonder if I should run around a bit"?
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01:29:20 <mad> quatre-vingt-dix-huit
01:29:29 <oklopol> tswett_56: it's the "-lle" plus "-kohan" of 98
01:30:04 * Lymia thinks she will stick with learning Japanese....
01:30:16 <mad> japanese is hard too
01:31:13 <mad> japanese is like the hard part of chinese (kanji) + the hard part of turkic/mongolian (agglutinative, everything is in reverse order)
01:31:19 <tswett_56> Oh, right, you use the partitive when yelling out adjectives.
01:31:39 <oklopol> verbs don't have partitives
01:31:52 <tswett_56> But vaikea is an adjective, isn't it?
01:31:59 <oklopol> oh sorry yeah aosidjfoierg
01:32:14 <oklopol> we use the partitive when yelling out adjectives
01:32:43 <mad> is there any esoteric system that would be good for making music with?
01:32:47 <tswett_56> Erinomaista. That declension sure makes sense.
01:32:51 <mad> generating audio
01:33:28 <oerjan> mad: Gregor was making something... don't know how esoteric it was
01:34:28 <mad> oerjan: hmm
01:34:46 <Gregor> I have made nothing /esoteric/ in that area.
01:34:58 <mad> oerjan: I might just design an esoteric sound chip and write a VST emulating it
01:35:02 <mad> or something like that
01:35:22 <oerjan> the music esolangs i know about go _from_ music to program
01:35:55 <oklopol> koirin means by using dogs
01:36:06 <oklopol> mostly used for transportation
01:36:18 <oklopol> well yeah but there's a perfectly good koirineni
01:37:21 <mad> oerjan: right now in the music world, there's a problem of synths being too similar to each other
01:37:28 <mad> way too many subtractive synths
01:37:29 <oklopol> well, more like possessing my dogs
01:37:32 <mad> (filter based)
01:37:39 <oklopol> tswett_56: yes, koir -ine -ni
01:38:44 <mad> oerjan: they could really use some more original synths
01:39:00 <mad> so there's definitely something to do on that angle
01:41:18 <mad> but trying to design a soundchip is hard :D
01:41:45 <tswett_56> Kuva... limsa. Koira kivi turri, turrin auto.
01:42:38 <tswett_56> Minä en ole koira. Minä olen turri. elliott ei ole kivi. elliott on auto.
01:42:53 <oklopol> limsan kuva on koiralle liian vaikea
01:44:52 <tswett_56> The soda-pop's picture is onto the dog too difficult... I have no idea what that deciphers to.
01:45:27 <oerjan> it doesn't decipher, finns really speak mostly in meaningless sentences
01:45:43 <mad> with lots of umlauts :D
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01:45:57 <tswett_56> Limsat kuvaan ei ole minä kuskasati.
01:46:25 <mad> äännäännen minä oonnoonnen
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01:57:46 <Gregor> With wcc (16-bit) in the huge memory model, sizeof(size_t) != sizeof(void *).
01:58:43 <oerjan> the com that makes you wat
01:59:05 <oklopol> the wat that makes you com
02:02:26 <elliott> Gregor: that's perfectly admissable isn't it
02:02:32 <elliott> i mean sixteen bit is fucked up
02:02:52 <Gregor> elliott: That's KINDA true, but I mean, come on sizeof(size_t) != sizeof(void *) >_<
02:03:00 <Gregor> The whole point of size_t is it's the size of a pointer :P
02:03:11 <Gregor> Well yeah, it's "word size"
02:03:20 <elliott> It can hold the size of any object. That's all.
02:04:15 <Gregor> I hate C. I hate it with love.
02:04:16 <elliott> Says the guy who doesn't know the difference tween (void) and () ;DDD
02:04:28 <elliott> BUT YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO OUT-PEDANT ME
02:04:39 <Gregor> I wonder if I could modify wcc to pretend like it's a 32-bit platform :P
02:04:52 <elliott> And so Gregor enters the land of Reasonable and Sane Ideas.
02:05:05 <Gregor> Make ints and size_ts 32 bits, just never admit that there's a segment register goin' on here :P
02:05:33 <Gregor> I'm wondering after semi-accidentally realizing that GGGGC actually works on 16-bit.
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02:07:25 <elliott> Gregor: Does GMP even compile with sixteen-bit OpenWatcom.
02:07:28 <elliott> I can't even comprehend that.
02:07:35 <Gregor> elliott: I didn't try :P
02:07:41 <elliott> ais523: Gregor's Gregarious General Gorging Garbage Crap.
02:08:13 <Gregor> elliott: Gregarious will now be my new adjective when I advance to GGGGGC.
02:08:19 <elliott> Gregor: Please never advance thuswise.
02:08:33 <Gregor> elliott: Y'know that's how I got to GGGGC, right? :P
02:08:36 <elliott> Gregor: Can you compact it to just GGC next time? :P
02:08:59 <elliott> Gregor: I liked the API a lot more when I thought GGC_ was stuff left over from the original GGC.
02:09:05 <elliott> Like, you kept source-compatibility each time in that manner.
02:09:20 <Gregor> I didn't even keep source compatibility a little bit :P
02:09:31 <Gregor> The number of G's just indicates the publicness of the function X-D
02:09:41 <elliott> That's even worse, to be honest :P
02:09:50 <oerjan> the last G will stand for Global, i take
02:10:15 <Gregor> oerjan: None of the G's stand for either of those :P
02:10:26 <oerjan> Gregor: i mean the last one you eventually add
02:10:41 <elliott> this is so super-linear it isn't even funny
02:11:01 <Gregor> Actually GGGGC is shaping out to be the lastish, at least for the time being.
02:11:12 <elliott> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
02:11:13 <Gregor> GGC was a miserable failure, GGGC was tolerable but not fast.
02:11:29 <elliott> Gregor: You just need to make it concurrent; GGGGCC.
02:11:49 <elliott> Gregor: Eventually you'll compact all the acronyms down after getting tired of this shit, and it will become Gregor's Concurrent Collector.
02:11:54 <elliott> Commonly known in programming circles as GCC.
02:12:10 <elliott> In fact, GCC will replace its GC dependency with the GCC GC.
02:12:30 <elliott> So the GCC GC will be GCC's GC.
02:12:40 <elliott> People will refer to "The GCC GC, GCC's GC".
02:12:41 <Gregor> The hotspot GC is faster than GGGGC, but it's also not ~600 lines :P
02:13:00 <elliott> Hotspot's GC just uses magic and unicorns.
02:13:10 <elliott> And that might even matter if the rest of Java wasn't a steaming shitpile.
02:13:11 <Gregor> Hotspot's GC is fucking terrifying >_>
02:13:32 <elliott> It's, like, the worst environment ever... with a GC from twenty years in the future.
02:13:59 <elliott> coppro: you _know_ the punishment for that.
02:14:55 <elliott> hmm, i should port my little recursive descent routines from zepto.py
02:14:58 <elliott> yes, i'm still writing zepto.c
02:15:03 <Gregor> elliott: lol, gmp on 16-bit is seriously the best worst idea ever X-D
02:15:18 <oerjan> elliott: um still no connection
02:15:34 <elliott> Gregor: Considering that gcc miscompiles gmp at the best of times, I very much doubt OpenWatcom will ever get it right ever :P
02:15:42 <elliott> Although to be fair, gcc is a legendary piece of shit.
02:15:51 <Gregor> elliott: It worked fine 32-bit.
02:15:56 <Gregor> elliott: Remember I got Fythe for DOS.
02:16:02 <elliott> I know, I'm trying not to think about that.
02:16:11 <elliott> I want sixteen-bit Fythe :P
02:16:17 <Gregor> elliott: To make GMP not use its assembly routines (which was necessary for wcc386), you have to tell it --host=none-whatever. Pretty lols command line.
02:16:33 <elliott> Please tell me the whatever is really necessary.
02:16:42 <Gregor> Either pc-linux-gnu or pc-msdos or, y'know, whatever.
02:16:48 <elliott> Gregor: You should try an eight-bit compiler.
02:17:09 <elliott> Reading Plof system files from tape...
02:17:24 <elliott> Whoops look at that, the number three used up all your memory
02:22:18 <elliott> Gregor: btw interior pointers are the besssssssst
02:22:33 <Gregor> elliott: Just say "no" to interior pointers :P
02:22:41 <elliott> Gregor: But they''re intoxicating.
02:22:54 <elliott> NIL = TAG(conssa(intern(strdup("NIL")), cons(NIL, NIL)), T_PAIR|T_SYMBOL);
02:22:58 -!- pikhq has joined.
02:23:01 <elliott> Observe: Interior pointers, holding this stack of cards together.
02:23:36 <elliott> "conssa" meaning "cons, but allocate the pair so that [and]pair->cdr is aligned with 0s, not necessarily the car; and return the pointer to the cdr".
02:23:45 <elliott> This is used for NIL'S SUPREME OVERLAPPINGNESS :D
02:25:08 <Gregor> elliott: So, how miserably slow is your GC? :P
02:25:30 <elliott> while (TAGOF(poolptr)) poolptr++;
02:25:38 <elliott> while (TAGOF(poolptr+1)) poolptr++;
02:25:46 <Gregor> elliott: That is an allocator. How fast is your GC?
02:25:48 <elliott> Gregor: It's so fast. Conservative, mind you.
02:25:52 <elliott> That loop never even RUNS on sixty-four bit architectuers.
02:25:56 <elliott> Gregor: That _is_ my GC [eight]D
02:26:09 <elliott> Gregor: But my GC /will/ be the Zepto Bargain Basement Copying Collector.
02:26:14 * Sgeo_346126 suddenly isn't sure that just going inside a function and lexifying all the dynamic variables is possible
02:26:19 <elliott> Gregor: As soon as I figure out how that does not involve rewriting pointers in running code.
02:26:35 <Sgeo_346126> How would one distinguish a lambda from a list? oh, duh, r5rs requires the keyword
02:26:35 <Gregor> What's wrong with that? >: )
02:26:40 <elliott> Gregor: I get the feeling that C code requires Infrastructure to use a copying GC.
02:26:46 <elliott> Unless it's possible to do it without such rewriting? :P
02:27:08 <Gregor> elliott: Hence all the GGC_PUSH nonsense.
02:27:31 <elliott> Gregor: It would be better if I just used details of the architecture to rewrite it without any infrastructure [eight]D
02:27:45 <Gregor> [eight]D is perhaps the worst smiley ever.
02:30:00 <Gregor> elliott: I have actually considered whether I could make a superwtf series of macros for types on the stack. Conclusion: No.
02:30:36 <Gregor> elliott: For GGGGC to not need GGC_PUSH
02:30:55 <Gregor> ... "Huh?" isn't much of a joke :P
02:31:06 <elliott> <elliott> Gregor: It would be better if I just used details of the architecture to rewrite it without any infrastructure [eight]D
02:31:17 <Gregor> Yeah, I got that that was a joke :P
02:31:59 <elliott> basically i do the standard copying collector shit, right, except i make sure to preserve the order of objects
02:31:59 <pikhq> Well, have you considered using handles, as per classic Mac OS?
02:32:02 <elliott> and just leave gigantic holes in thingy
02:32:11 <elliott> i realloc the original space
02:32:17 <elliott> and then keep using a linear collector
02:33:05 <monqy> it's somewhere in there
02:33:07 <pikhq> elliott: And now your allocator is nontrivial.
02:33:12 <elliott> pikhq: nope still linear as usual
02:33:29 <Gregor> elliott: One strategy that apparently works for reasons I don't understand (haven't investigated) is making sure your old pointers are strictly invalid, then catching page faults and rewriting the access that way. The reason I don't understand if this works is as far as I know you can never know that a whole region is unreferenced, so essentially you just take up all your VIRTUAL memory without taking REAL memory.
02:33:32 <elliott> the joke is that collector is one gigantic nop
02:33:32 <pikhq> Either you keep track of free space or you love heap corruption.
02:33:41 <elliott> you are all too stupid to get this
02:33:46 <elliott> which is kinda pathetic :DDDD
02:33:53 <monqy> I was afraid it was actually doing something
02:34:02 <elliott> Gregor: Dude, I was the one who linked you to the article on that :P
02:34:05 <elliott> By article I mean blog post.
02:34:11 <Gregor> elliott: Memory: I don't have it.
02:34:11 <elliott> BUT THANKS FOR THE HEADS UP BRO
02:34:20 <monqy> nop as a garbage collector would be pretty fast
02:34:25 <pikhq> Gregor: Well, on 64-bit architectures you have exabytes of virtual memory.
02:34:28 <elliott> monqy: it's what i currently have
02:34:47 <Gregor> pikhq: Even the rewriting page maps would be enormous :)
02:35:08 <pikhq> Gregor: And you could use gigabyte pages. :P
02:36:26 <pikhq> (yes, x86_64 supports gigabyte pages)
02:39:58 <mad> I'll page your mom
02:42:02 <elliott> ais523: being online so i could tab-complete your name to paste into this email
02:43:30 <monqy> is your 523 key missing
02:53:42 <monqy> are segfaults zepto
02:54:01 <monqy> I should take notes
02:54:18 <pikhq> I take it that you don't check for NULL from malloc, for being insufficiently zepto?
02:54:28 <elliott> pikhq: i don't use malloc.
02:54:30 <pikhq> (of course, on a standard Linux system malloc cannot return NULL)
02:55:32 <pikhq> For reasons only comprehensible to a select, crazy few, Linux prefers to kill processes in an OOM situation.
02:56:38 <pikhq> *Though* it's not like that changes too much in practice, due to the common handling of OOM being "if(!(foo=malloc(bar)))exit(1);"...
02:57:55 <monqy> if(!(foo=malloc(bar))){fprintf(stderr, "oh no\n");exit(1);}
02:58:50 <pikhq> And OOM killer kills will at least be in the kernel log.
02:59:17 <elliott> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
02:59:17 <elliott> 0x0000000000400c6a in intern (s=0x613060 "x") at zepto.c:102
02:59:17 <elliott> 102 if (!strcmp((char *) DEREF(record).car, s)) {
02:59:19 <elliott> i bet i broke something lol
02:59:33 <Sgeo_346126> elliott, difference between zepto and pico?
02:59:40 <elliott> Sgeo_346126: zepto has all the bitches.
03:00:03 <Sgeo_346126> If it weren't for newLISP, zepto might not exist.
03:00:11 <coppro> pikhq: why does your currency become weak only when I'm going to work in the USA?
03:00:13 <pikhq> Zepto is also un-otpez.
03:00:20 <elliott> what does newlisp have to do with this
03:00:29 <pikhq> coppro: Because WE HATE DIRTY EUROPEANS
03:00:31 <elliott> coppro: because working is for chumps, hth
03:00:45 <Sgeo_346126> I think I mentioned newlisp, causing elliott to redirect me to picolisp, causing him to regain interest in picolisp, causing zepto
03:00:52 <coppro> pikhq: I'm not European
03:00:53 <elliott> i didn't regain interst i just
03:00:59 <coppro> Your government trusts me
03:01:03 <coppro> I have a piece of paper that says so
03:01:05 <pikhq> coppro: Oh, that's even worse.
03:01:16 <elliott> coppro: why the fuck would they trust you, you suck ass
03:01:18 <pikhq> coppro: We hate ALL THAT IS UP NORTH
03:01:28 <pikhq> coppro: The only thing we hate more is our own economy!
03:01:38 <pikhq> monqy: AND ALL THAT IS UP SOUTH
03:01:42 <pikhq> monqy: AND EAST AND WEST
03:02:08 <monqy> good luck have fun
03:02:15 <pikhq> The only things we like are bad foreign policy, bad domestic policy, and bad food!
03:02:40 <pikhq> Oh, yes, and artificial food-like substances.
03:02:46 <pikhq> Indeed, that's probably our favorite thing.
03:02:49 <coppro> elliott: I have a piece of paper saying that they trust me to enter their country without bringing anything illegal in
03:02:51 * oerjan slips ice 9 into Sgeo_346126's antiwater
03:03:04 <elliott> coppro: well ass isn't illegal.
03:03:15 <elliott> sucking it might be though
03:04:42 <pikhq> elliott: Sodomy laws got struck down by the Supreme Court a few years back.
03:04:57 <pikhq> Essentially any sexual action between consenting individuals is legal.
03:05:01 <pikhq> Including sucking ass.
03:06:04 <pikhq> (note: exception. If you are in the US military, it must be between consenting individuals *of opposite gender*. The DADT repeal has yet to go into effect.)
03:06:04 <oerjan> lolling is however strictly forbidden
03:06:46 <mad> pikhq: between consenting adult individuals
03:06:55 <copumpkin> pikhq: can I still do all sorts of horrifying immoral acts to a consenting person of the opposite gender?
03:07:14 <pikhq> mad: "Consent" implies that the individuals involved are capable of giving consent.
03:07:32 <coppro> heheheh... Canadian criminal code is so outdated
03:07:38 <pikhq> mad: Children are not capable of such, according to the law.
03:08:21 <pikhq> copumpkin: Yes, you can have uberkinky slave bondage torture sex to your heart's content.
03:08:45 <copumpkin> I've coined a new term that combines santorum with blood and saliva
03:08:56 <copumpkin> but I won't tell you the name as you might reth
03:09:11 <Gregor> Presumably you coined this term out of necessity?
03:09:32 <coppro> pikhq: In Canada, according to the laws on the books, you can do anything you'd like except a) bestiality b) anal sex if there's anyone else around (including a third participant)
03:09:37 <coppro> I'm not kidding about b)
03:10:01 <copumpkin> damn, that excludes my second favorite bro-fantastic activity
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03:10:29 <elliott> (one of the bros is a dog)
03:10:32 <Gregor> If you're still saying "chain" and not "circle", you're not thinking far enough.
03:10:44 <elliott> chain? lol, i primarily work in spheres
03:10:45 <elliott> and not hollow ones either
03:10:56 <pikhq> Gregor: You need many a person to have a circle of anal sex.
03:11:06 <elliott> one gigantic mass of buttfuck
03:11:17 <elliott> a nation-state unto itself
03:12:00 <coppro> pikhq: Oh, right, also, if either pariticpant is anal sex is under 18, it's only permitted between husband and wife (and not husband and husband). That one is pretty obviously stretched to include same-sex marriages though.
03:12:29 <pikhq> coppro: ... Why have a seperate age of consent for anal sex and any-other sex?
03:12:41 <elliott> oerjan: http://howhumanareyou.com/
03:12:46 <elliott> i suspect oerjan of being a robot
03:13:16 <coppro> pikhq: Because our criminal code is criminally outdated
03:13:31 <pikhq> coppro: Ours is, no doubt, worse.
03:13:40 <pikhq> But the UK's takes the cake, I'm sure.
03:13:43 <coppro> and this section is probably unenforceable
03:13:53 <coppro> along with our gambling and prostitution laws
03:13:53 <copumpkin> anyone not seen that comic and want to?
03:13:59 <augur> this test has many false dichotomies, elliott
03:13:59 <copumpkin> I feel like I shouldn't post NSFW links in here
03:14:17 <Gregor> http://lollotsoporn.com/
03:14:33 <Gregor> DISAPPOINTED BY NONEXISTENCE
03:14:35 <pikhq> copumpkin: Feel free to post NSFW links.
03:14:42 <pikhq> copumpkin: Just specify "NSFW".
03:14:46 <pikhq> We're mostly adults here.
03:14:48 <copumpkin> [NSFW]http://wecravegames.com/forums/imagehosting/174beda9351600c.png%20and%20http://wecravegames.com/forums/imagehosting/174beda8e29cf33.png[/NSFW]
03:15:09 * Sgeo_346126 slaps copumpkin for what copumpkin just realized he did
03:15:13 <pikhq> And minors know whether or not they give a fuck about the law. :P
03:15:15 <Gregor> copumpkin: For that you are now banned from posting any links P
03:15:27 <coppro> pikhq: In a surprisingly odd twist, our incest laws are very lenient
03:15:39 <coppro> two generations up or down only
03:15:56 <Sgeo_346126> copumpkin, not linking to the original source?
03:16:04 <Gregor> coppro: So just to be clear from your previous statement, making anal porn is strictly illegal, yes?
03:16:15 <elliott> Sgeo_346126 VALUES ORIGINAL SOURCES IN HIS PORN
03:16:26 <pikhq> coppro: In the US, it depends on the state.
03:16:36 <coppro> Gregor: Now, having it, on the other hand
03:16:47 <coppro> yeah, self-filmed might be ok
03:16:59 <elliott> today i learned a new definition of the word cute
03:17:07 <coppro> and then explicitly says it's not in private if there's anyone else around
03:17:23 <pikhq> coppro: It is possible to be married and it be illegal to have sex in the US, quite trivially.
03:17:47 <pikhq> For instance: marry a first cousin in a state where it's legal (most of them) and move to one where it's illegal.
03:17:56 <augur> copumpkin: you're a total homo, dont even pretend
03:18:08 <copumpkin> augur: nah, I said "no homo" every time
03:18:12 <elliott> its' broken i wonder whyi s roken
03:18:18 <pikhq> Or get married to just about any relative in New Jersey; incest laws only apply to <18 there.
03:18:19 <augur> SO YOU ADMIT YOU'RE NOT HOMO SAPIENS?!
03:19:03 <pikhq> coppro: Yes, really.
03:19:16 <coppro> pikhq: oh, also, our incest laws, in a sudden outbreak of common sense, are defined only by blood relationships
03:19:51 <pikhq> Apparently Japan has no incest laws at all.
03:19:53 <augur> that comic is pretty true
03:19:59 <pikhq> They were repealed in 1881.
03:20:26 <pikhq> Marriage between parent-child or siblings is illegal. No further restrictions.
03:20:32 <coppro> The fact that they are laws based on blood relationships indicates that they aren't trying to solve the wrong problem
03:21:37 <elliott> outlawing inbreeding seems a bit silly, there's plenty of other ways to get tarded kids
03:21:49 <elliott> AND I AM NOW GOING TO DEMONSTRATE THEM ALL
03:21:57 <augur> copumpkin: anyone familiar with statistical parsers knows well enough that they can handle 's :|
03:22:14 <coppro> In most normal scenarios, the body has built-in protections to avoid inbreeding anyhow
03:22:17 <copumpkin> yeah but statistical parsers are kinda gay
03:22:18 <pikhq> elliott: And you can get inbreeding whilst following incest laws if you try.
03:22:22 <augur> copumpkin: no homo
03:22:34 <elliott> coppro: unless you've never seen your sibling ever
03:22:44 <elliott> in which case WHOOO BOY DOWNS SYNDROME AHOY
03:22:59 <elliott> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_sexual_attraction)
03:23:01 <coppro> elliott: That's really not a problem since a single incidence is not likely to cause terribad effects anyhow
03:23:18 <elliott> coppro: I never said it was a problem, incest is a pretty outdated taboo
03:23:35 <elliott> But one that isn't relevant most of the time 'cuz of biololology.
03:23:50 <pikhq> elliott: Not to mention a fairly flexible one, anyways.
03:24:16 <coppro> I'd just as soon see it removed from criminal law myself
03:24:23 <elliott> "With not long to go until the AV referendum, the waters are muddier than ever. It's confusing. One minute the anti-camp claims a vote for AV would benefit the BNP. Then the pro-camp counters by pointing out the BNP are against AV. Therefore no matter what the outcome, Nick Griffin will both win and lose simultaneously. He'll exist in an uncertain quantum state. Like Schrödinger's cat. I say "cat". I
03:24:23 <elliott> originally used another word starting with c and ending with t, but the Guardian asked me to change it. Suffice to say, Griffin is a massive cat."
03:24:24 <pikhq> Quick, go around asking if sex with a first cousin is taboo.
03:24:31 <pikhq> coppro: Well, yes.
03:24:47 <pikhq> coppro: Any victimless "crime" absolutely must go!
03:25:16 <elliott> pikhq: now you get the satisfaction of reading it again in Charlie Brooker's voice
03:26:02 <pikhq> elliott: Who's Charlie Brooker?
03:26:10 <coppro> pikhq: Depending on your definition of "victimless"
03:26:25 <elliott> pikhq: he's just this guy who's the best guy ever
03:27:07 <elliott> dear diary. US does not even know who charlie brooker is. suspect crippling mass depression. must send aid packages.
03:27:15 <coppro> pikhq: While prostitution generally should be allowed, I think, do we allow under-18s to sell themselves to people of similar age?
03:27:16 <pikhq> coppro: One which does not cause notable harm to anyone who is not a willing participant in good mental health.
03:27:29 <elliott> "There was a TV ad depicting a Grand National style event in which, thanks to AV, the horse in third place magically finished first. This was unrealistic on two counts: partly because the example they used was impossible, but mainly because all the horses survived."
03:28:06 <pikhq> coppro: Unfortunately, the edge cases here are a bitch.
03:28:07 <Gregor> elliott: What are you quoting :P
03:28:11 <elliott> Gregor: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/apr/25/av-campaign-created-stupidity-whirlpool
03:28:14 <elliott> Gregor: Charlie Brooker, your new God.
03:28:15 <coppro> although I would say that if, hypothetically, underage prostitution were a real offense, then it should be more administrative than criminal
03:28:23 <elliott> (I have resolved that no American knows who Charlie Brooker is at all.)
03:28:27 <elliott> (Not even facts will sway me from this position.)
03:28:38 <coppro> although I'm a fan of the "prisons are a last resort" philosophy to crime anyway
03:28:55 <pikhq> coppro: And I presume said prisons should be Norwegian?
03:29:28 <pikhq> (i.e. actually humane and genuinely beneficial to society, rather than producing career criminals)
03:30:24 <oerjan> it's not like the norwegian prisons never produce career criminals
03:30:38 <coppro> oerjan: produce != contain
03:30:50 <pikhq> oerjan: No, but they aren't bloody well *designed to fucking do it*.
03:30:52 <coppro> The US criminal law system basically makes it so that if you get in, getting out is hard
03:31:02 <coppro> and once you're out, you have nowhere to go but more crime
03:31:20 <coppro> pikhq: Humane, yes. Beneficial... depends on the criminal. White-collar crime is probably best punished by massive fine and a short "time out" sentence; but for serious cases, you need to assume you're not going to get anything useful out of them
03:31:52 <elliott> we should lock people in small metal boxes
03:32:15 <oerjan> but it _did_ notice a story in a norwegian paper the other day about this guy who got actual help to get a job while in prison
03:32:23 <coppro> Alternatively, people who have driven crime (gang lords) should also probably be disconnected from society for a long while
03:32:53 <coppro> elliott: with GLaD0S in charge?
03:33:05 <pikhq> oerjan: Your prisons are pretty much designed for rehabilitation.
03:34:08 <coppro> oddly enough, prisons are one area where the media overblowing something is a good thing
03:34:58 <coppro> since the media tends to make them sound a lot scarier than they are, and that keeps people afraid of them, and that keeps them following the law
03:35:09 <coppro> (or trying harder not to get caught, I suppose. But probably more of the former on balance)
03:36:22 <elliott> does fear of the horrible reality of prisons actually stop people committing crime in large numbers
03:38:23 <pikhq> elliott: No, the horrible reality of prisons, at least in the US, are directly responsible for people committing crime in large numbers.
03:40:44 <pikhq> Recidivism is 67%. Any further questions?
03:41:54 <elliott> really i'd prefer a response from coppro.
03:46:31 <coppro> elliott: It has some effect; I have no clue how much
03:46:43 <elliott> $1 = (obj) 0x894855c3c9002012
03:47:05 <elliott> coppro: ok, so you're basically saying that the media overblowing the horrors of prison is good based on nothing? just checking
03:47:23 <coppro> elliott: I do not have hard studies for you, no
03:47:44 <coppro> elliott: It is a conclusion I have arrived at with logic
03:47:53 <coppro> I have concluded there must be some effect
03:48:00 <coppro> I do not know enough to conclude the volume
03:48:05 <elliott> and what on earth compels you to think it's not a horrifically bad effect
03:48:16 <elliott> and, say i were to ask for this logic, would i be intensely surprised to learn that you haven't actually written it down
03:48:22 <elliott> i'm not into trusting random intuition frankly
03:49:14 <coppro> logic is saying "I know X and Y, therefore Z."
03:49:16 <elliott> not logic you haven't/won't/can't disclosed
03:49:33 <coppro> I can disclose the logic, but it is still based on my own observations
03:50:06 <coppro> the logic is that people are deterred from something by the threat of pain
03:50:13 <pikhq> Then do so before I call you on proof surrogate. :P
03:50:56 <coppro> elliott: Yes. I refuse to prove this statement as this is a very, very well-accepted psychological fact
03:51:02 <elliott> i mean, if you compare the american justice system and SNOOTY RICH EUROPEAN JUSTICE, it sure doesn't seem like making prisons shitty helps much.
03:51:09 <elliott> coppro: oh -- it's intuitive
03:51:19 <coppro> elliott: No, it's not that it's intuitive
03:51:26 <coppro> it's that there are many studies backing this up
03:51:33 <coppro> you can conduct one in the comfort of your own home
03:52:49 <pikhq> elliott: I'll cite so he doesn't have to. Pavlov.
03:53:00 <elliott> pikhq: i don't deny that specific fact is true.
03:53:09 <elliott> coppro was obviously generalising it to something less direct
03:53:14 <elliott> but why am i responding, i have already said i am done
03:53:28 <coppro> pikhq: Nonono, he did that on dogs. It's clearly not valid on humans.
03:53:55 <elliott> woo, now we've moved on to trolling
03:54:08 <elliott> this is the very tops of this channel
03:54:27 <mad> crime rate is correlated to gini index
03:54:37 <pikhq> elliott: Hey, "because you lie" is a very good response for "why am I responding, I have already said I am done".
03:54:47 <elliott> pikhq: i was not referring to you. i was referring to coppro.
03:55:12 <pikhq> coppro is hereby invited to defend his own actions.
03:58:00 <coppro> my actions were correct
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04:04:08 <Gregor> What's the 286's maximum amount of addressable memory? Anybody know?
04:05:12 -!- elliott has joined.
04:05:29 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_numbers
04:06:05 -!- lament has joined.
04:07:36 <elliott> Gregor: "This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it."
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04:07:54 <pikhq> Gregor: 16 MiB; it had a 24-bit address bus.
04:07:59 <elliott> suddenly, ais523 facepalms
04:08:05 <ais523> they should at least use the "This list is incomplete, and may never satisfy certain standards for completion" template
04:08:07 <elliott> 0Zeroaught, cipher, cypher, goose egg, love, nada, naught, nil, none, nought, nowt, null, ought, oh, squat, zed, zilch, zip
04:10:09 <pikhq> Which is also the maximum possible address space in 16-bit protected mode.
04:11:03 -!- kwertii has quit (Client Quit).
04:11:21 <elliott> Gregor: Is Fythe running on an Apple II yet
04:14:16 <Gregor> elliott: That port was E-Z.
04:14:24 <elliott> Gregor: Is the Apple II sentient
04:14:37 <Gregor> elliott: Aren't they all.
04:15:35 <mad> 286 pm? that's so obscure :D
04:17:23 <Sgeo_346126> Without that list, how am I to learn to count?
04:17:58 <elliott> Strongly carefree constant: 0.286747...
04:18:46 <lifthrasiir> Gregor, did your TC interpreter get any smaller?
04:18:47 <oerjan> yeah no one cares about that one
04:19:16 <Gregor> lifthrasiir: Nope, 77 bytes. And I never claimed it was TC, just that its semantics were TC if not for a limited word size :P
04:19:54 <Gregor> Well that's a pretty severe issue when your word size is 8 bits :)
04:20:28 <Gregor> I can actually save a byte and make it 32-bit, but then it's not endian-portable.
04:20:29 <Sgeo_346126> Any relation to fictitious concepts like space?
04:20:49 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Surround_notation&curid=3828&diff=22152&oldid=22147
04:20:57 <elliott> we do not need to be editing these articles
04:20:58 <elliott> we need to be forgetting they exist
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04:38:34 <elliott> omfgoimg why is it so slow
04:39:51 <pikhq> I continue to wonder: why is "coelacanth" a word I've seen more in Japanese than in English?
04:40:32 <elliott> because none of us can pronounce that
04:40:41 <oerjan> well that's just because japanese is a bit fishy
04:40:41 <pikhq> (シーラカンス [shiirakansu] in Japanese)
04:40:53 <coppro> pikhq: They appear to be common in video games?
04:41:05 <pikhq> coppro: Actually, song lyrics.
04:41:29 <pikhq> They're absurdly common in song lyrics in Japanese rock music. I have no idea why.
04:41:43 <pikhq> Okay, well, absurdly common *in comparison to what you'd expect*.
04:42:01 <coppro> maybe it just sounds good?
04:42:07 <coppro> maybe it's a common metaphor for something?
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04:42:58 <pikhq> I can only guess it's being used as a metaphor.
04:43:35 <pikhq> It certainly doesn't *seem* particularly euphonious. But, then, my ideas of euphony vs. cacaphony in Japanese are fairly off, so cannot be used as a reliable judge of anything.
04:44:15 <pikhq> Well, I can comment that it's a tiny bit *long* for Japanese. A whole 6 morae.
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04:44:59 <elliott> pikhq: maybe it's used to fill out syllables to make lines fit >:D
04:45:16 <oerjan> it doesn't happen to have a meaning other than coelacanth?
04:45:33 <pikhq> oerjan: I looked it up in bilingual and monolingual dictionaries.
04:46:32 <elliott> pikhq can i have more badnwidth
04:46:39 <pikhq> oerjan: The bilingual ones say "coelacanth". Monolingual ones describe it as a genera of fish that was once thought to have been extinct, and note that it's from English "coelacanth".
04:46:58 <pikhq> Erm, s/genera/genus/
04:47:13 <elliott> more like genera-lly extinct
04:47:19 <elliott> sometimes i think im just too genius?
04:47:32 <elliott> then i kinda snap out of it and go naw.
04:47:38 <pikhq> oerjan: So, yeah. It is *definitely* referring to the fish.
04:47:50 <oerjan> oh it's actually a loan word...
04:48:27 <pikhq> Actually, most words for animals are loaned from one language or another in Japanese...
04:49:08 <pikhq> Only a small handful of native ones. For, like, "dog", "cat", "cow", "horse"...
04:49:14 <coppro> pikhq: haha your country is hilarious http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/state-dept-wants-to-make-it-harder-to-get-a-passport/
04:50:27 <oerjan> hey they need to prepare for when it gets so bad they need to keep people in...
04:50:33 <pikhq> coppro: Oh jesus fuck. I don't think I could actually fill out that questionnaire.
04:51:00 <pikhq> I have moved something like 10 times already.
04:51:40 <pikhq> Though if that doesn't apply to renewals, then fuck yeah.
04:52:16 * pikhq has already had 2 passports
04:52:25 <coppro> pikhq: The best part is the estimated 45 minutes to fill it out
04:52:39 <pikhq> coppro: Lies and deceit right there.
04:53:03 <pikhq> I think that the Japanese naturalisation process is less involved.
04:53:15 <pikhq> And they have a reputation of discouraging any and all immigration...
04:55:17 <pikhq> *They ask for a list of appointments your mother had for pre or post-natal care*.
04:56:01 <coppro> yeah, that's utterly ridiculous
04:56:03 <pikhq> As well as a *list of people present at your birth*.
04:56:38 <pikhq> What if I don't know who my parents are?
04:57:36 <pikhq> They also seem to give a fairly conservative amount of space for the list of employers and the list of residences...
04:58:15 <pikhq> I'd be almost out of space on the form. Already.
04:59:04 <pikhq> ... I think I'm well over on schools.
05:00:31 <coppro> fortunately, I don't have to get a US passport
05:00:56 <pikhq> This form was undoubtedly designed by someone who has had a stultifyingly simple life.
05:01:29 <coppro> your typical lawyer won't be able to fill that form out entirely
05:02:38 <pikhq> Indeed, you would need more knowledge about your own life than most people would even imagine knowing.
05:03:44 <coppro> actually, a person with 100% perfect recall would quite likely be unable to complete that form
05:04:19 <coppro> How the hell does someone, even with perfect recall, know where their mother lived a year before their birth?
05:04:42 <pikhq> Unless you know your mother never moved, that is going to be damned fucking difficult.
05:05:24 <coppro> Especially if she's dead or won't tell you
05:05:58 <pikhq> Oh, and imagine an 85 year old applying for a new passport.
05:06:22 <coppro> the absolute best part of this
05:06:57 <pikhq> They already have the problem that they *probably don't have any documentation older than the social security card they got for their first job*...
05:07:00 <coppro> is that if this form gets approved, then people will be made less able to come to Canada, and they'll probably complain that Canada requires a passport for immigration
05:07:18 <coppro> and guess whose fault that is
05:10:45 <coppro> It's the fault of the USA's xenophobia
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05:29:17 * pikhq is somewhat amused by the lack of *chimpanzee* ancestors...
05:29:55 <pikhq> There's less evidence that chimpanzees evolved from monkeys than that humans did. :P
05:31:48 <Gregor> What are you babbling about :P
05:33:00 <pikhq> Gregor: Basically, the chimp fossil record kinda goes poof between the possible common ancestor of humans & chimps, and modern-day chimps.
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06:36:12 <pikhq> Sweet. We've got satellites in Earth's Lagrangian points.
06:36:26 <pikhq> Specifically, L1 and L2.
06:37:44 <pikhq> To specify further, the Lagrangian points in the Sun-Earth system.
06:48:30 <Lymia> coppro, do they actually think that people will be able to fill it out?
06:50:39 <coppro> pikhq: what about for earth-moon?
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06:59:25 <pikhq> coppro: No, but there have been many proposals for such.
07:00:10 <pikhq> coppro: The Sun-Earth L1 and L2 points are in use because they're very convenient for observation.
07:01:08 <pikhq> coppro: Earth-Moon L1 and L2 would be of most use with man actually on the Moon; communication satellites, waypoints for further travel, and the like.
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07:43:19 <pikhq> Placental mammals *also* form an egg-shell analog and a yolk.
07:45:47 <pikhq> In placentals, the yolk serves as part of the early circulatory system.
07:48:11 <pikhq> The egg shell analog is the amniotic sac. Serves no function; it's just a vestigial egg shell.
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11:41:20 <Ilari> Wow, cleaning package cache freed 22GB of disk space. :-)
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11:51:42 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/gwmp7/how_does_starting_a_girlfriendboyfriend/
11:51:43 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
11:54:00 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: "...have 2 messages!?"?
11:55:37 <Phantom_Hoover> You know what, I'm unsubscribing from AskReddit as well.
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13:19:09 <Vorpal> <Ilari> Wow, cleaning package cache freed 22GB of disk space. :-) <-- distro?
13:20:02 <Sgeo_346126> Phantom_Hoover, sounds like the sort of thing I'd need help with (just judging from the URL)
13:23:23 <Lymia> Who's the local python bot?
13:23:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_346126, yes, I was going to say "Oh god, it's full of Sgeos" but I decided it wasn't worth it.
13:23:49 <Lymia> Who's the local python exec bot?
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13:28:33 <Phantom_Hoover> `run python -c "print 'I forget the correct syntax'" 2>&1
13:28:35 <HackEgo> I forget the correct syntax
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14:17:17 <oerjan> today's iwc is definitely confusing...
14:19:25 <Vorpal> oerjan, what is it that Alvissa has understood
14:22:14 <oerjan> the ruby is supposedly in the citadel, which ardaxar came out of. how can it not already be in his possession. maybe he just found out where it is.
14:23:24 <oerjan> well that's certainly all the rage
14:24:30 <Vorpal> oerjan, or maybe it turns out the party is carrying it without knowing it?
14:24:37 -!- Gregor has set topic: We are now taking up collections for the "elliott needs a sense of fnarf" fund | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Some logs also available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
14:24:42 <Vorpal> Kyros spehere is the wrong colour for it
14:24:56 <oerjan> but they're not lying within the citadel afaict...
14:25:35 <oklofok> oerjan: do you know how to get p -> !!p or !!p -> p from (p -> (q -> p)), (p -> (q -> r)) -> ((p -> q) -> (p -> r)), (!p -> !q) -> (q -> p)?
14:25:54 <oklofok> i hope you are familiar with those or this might be a bit scary :D
14:26:15 <Vorpal> oerjan, is it just me or is the head of the dragon in http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/comic.php?current=3005&theme=2&dir=next see-through at the eyes?
14:26:25 <oklofok> i tried to do it but i just can't use axiom 3
14:26:50 <Vorpal> oklofok, have you tried google btw?
14:27:19 <oerjan> Vorpal: hm. only in the first panel though.
14:27:30 <oklofok> much more fun to tackle it myself or ask ppl
14:27:30 <Vorpal> oklofok, what is the fun in asking oerjan as opposed to figuring it out yourself
14:27:44 <oklofok> Vorpal: us humans like social interaction
14:27:58 <Vorpal> oklofok, oh, right. (damn, this pretense is hard)
14:29:56 <oerjan> Vorpal is secretely that alien guy from mezzacotta
14:30:15 <Vorpal> oerjan, which alien guy in mezzacotta?
14:31:12 <oklofok> oerjan: you didn't answer btw so i assume you're thinking real hard?
14:31:18 <oerjan> a bit hard to search for...
14:31:23 <oerjan> oklofok: i don't see how to do it
14:32:31 <Vorpal> oerjan, well point to the person in http://www.mezzacotta.net/cast/ ?
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14:34:23 <Fuco> so I'm using STRN fingerprint for befunge... P(0gnirts Va -- ) , what does Va mean? V is vector, which is just x/y pair, but what does that 'a' represent?
14:34:31 <Fuco> should I just push 10 there?
14:35:12 <Vorpal> Fuco, let me check what my implementation of STRN does
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14:35:59 <Fuco> looking at rcfunge sources, it only pops zyx and than while(a!=0) pop and write
14:36:06 <Vorpal> "P - Put string at specified position"
14:36:24 <Vorpal> Fuco, Va is a funge vector, used to decide where the string should be put. The delta from there is fixed
14:36:53 <Vorpal> http://sprunge.us/IHRU?c
14:36:55 <Fuco> is it somehow different from just 'V'
14:37:10 <Vorpal> "V - Retrieve value from string"?
14:37:21 <Vorpal> that is atoi() basically as far as I can tell
14:37:26 <Vorpal> at least that is what I do for it
14:37:41 <Fuco> P (0gnirts V -- )
14:37:44 <Fuco> if it was like this
14:37:52 <Fuco> because often the argument is denoted V, but sometimes Va
14:37:54 <Vorpal> looks like notation to me
14:38:15 <Vorpal> Fuco, these are rcfunge docs? They are sometimes not very clear on things
14:38:28 <Vorpal> anyway I would suggest ccbi or cfunge as better interpreters than rcfunge.
14:38:39 <Vorpal> though for trefunge I guess you would be stuck with rcfunge
14:38:41 <Fuco> are they opensource?
14:39:09 <Fuco> because I'm hacking the interpreter to add debuging info :D
14:39:17 <Vorpal> http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/ccbi.html https://launchpad.net/cfunge
14:39:23 <Vorpal> Fuco, the former has a built in debugger
14:39:25 <Fuco> well, I just can't get P instruction to work...
14:39:26 <Vorpal> the latter has tracing
14:39:37 <Vorpal> (I'm the author of cfunge)
14:39:58 <Deewiant> Vorpal: CCBI supports trefunge
14:40:10 <Vorpal> (and Deewiant is the author of ccbi)
14:40:32 <Vorpal> Fuco, I would not spend time on rcfunge code personally. From what I seen it is rather a mess.
14:41:14 <Vorpal> Fuco, much more fun to write your own implementation from scratch :)
14:41:31 <Vorpal> if you do I suggest using this test suite. http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology.html
14:43:23 <Fuco> how can I untar bz2? :D
14:43:44 <Fuco> tar xvfz don't work (z is for gzip?)
14:44:36 <Deewiant> With GNU tar, just leave out the z or j, it'll figure it out.
14:44:51 <Vorpal> Fuco, are you using ccbi or cfunge? for cfunge I need to make another release soon, sometime. There are quite a few important bug fixes in the trunk
14:45:06 <Vorpal> (I think, haven't been working on cfunge for a while now)
14:45:51 <Fuco> right now I'm compiling cfunge
14:46:08 <Vorpal> aargh, gcc 4.6 gives quite a few warnings.
14:46:17 <Vorpal> time to start working on cfunge again XD
14:46:55 <Fuco> wow, sweet makefile
14:46:59 <Fuco> lots of colors :D
14:47:47 <Fuco> YES, it works! :D
14:47:57 <Fuco> be blessed good sir =)
14:48:08 <Vorpal> Fuco, if it is last release I think there are a handful of bugs in it
14:48:26 <Fuco> well I'm using rather basic stuff
14:48:44 <Fuco> we have this challenge with a friend to write a befunge irc bot :D
14:49:10 <Gregor> fungot: Tell Fuco how his challenge is redundant.
14:49:11 <fungot> Gregor: it'd be cooler if not esoteric
14:49:25 <Gregor> Fuco: fungot seems to want you to write a C IRC bot.
14:49:25 <fungot> Gregor: well i know why i chose term result. solving the first part of the joke too...
14:49:59 <Fuco> well I know about fungot
14:49:59 <fungot> Fuco: there is such a hack.
14:50:03 <Fuco> but I want to do it myself :P
14:50:40 <Fuco> that's the fun part after all, right :)
14:52:34 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Oy cmake >_< <-- yes. I'd not use it if I were to do it all again
14:52:39 <Vorpal> but it is more work switching away now
14:54:46 <Vorpal> Deewiant, probably autotools. Because stuff like cross compiling and what not just works. But there is really no good C build system.
14:55:08 <Deewiant> Yeah, CMake is my current preference
14:55:16 <Deewiant> autotools is a no-go because I think of Windows :-P
14:55:48 <Vorpal> Deewiant, it can get tedious with cmake doing stuff that is simple in autotools. I have quite a handful of cmake macros for such stuff...
14:55:56 <Vorpal> CfungeCheckCflag.cmake CfungeCheckLinkerFlag.cmake CfungeRequireInclude.cmake MacroAddLinkFlags.cmake
14:55:56 <Vorpal> CfungeCheckFunction.cmake CfungeCheckWarningFlags.cmake CfungeRequireMultipleIncludes.cmake
14:55:56 <Vorpal> CfungeCheckLibraryFunction.cmake CfungeRequireFunction.cmake CfungeSetBuildInfoFlags.cmake
14:56:11 <Gregor> autotools is miles ahead of cmake, and for me portability to Windows means "builds with MingW in MSYS" :P
14:56:15 <Deewiant> I don't feel the need to test for the existence of stdio.h :-P
14:56:24 <Vorpal> Deewiant, indeed nor do I
14:56:32 <Deewiant> Running ./configure --help in MSYS takes a minute
14:56:36 <Gregor> Deewiant: If you are checking for it, then you're autotoolsing utterly wrong.
14:57:16 <Gregor> Step one for making a tolerable autotools: Run autoscan, then disregard the vast majority of what it generates.
14:57:37 <Gregor> Deewiant: And yes, but then Windows is an intolerably shitty OS and when possible I usually cross-compile for it rather than building natively :P
14:57:39 <Deewiant> Vorpal: But you check for C99 headers and stuff
14:57:49 <Vorpal> Deewiant, because openbsd used to be crazy
14:58:08 <Vorpal> Deewiant, well I only check a handful there.
14:58:17 <Gregor> I'll bet the build DOESN'T fail, it works around (?)
14:58:30 <Vorpal> Gregor, it fails on missing some C99 headers
14:58:38 <Vorpal> Deewiant, and openbsd was missing acosl and such
14:58:39 <Deewiant> And then a few dozen POSIX/C99 functions
14:59:00 <Vorpal> and random() is actually XSI
14:59:29 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I only need C99 + pure POSIX.1-2001 + mmap, at least that is my intention.
14:59:40 <Deewiant> Again, I'd just let the build fail
14:59:41 <Vorpal> oh wait, I require strdup too it seems
15:00:27 <Vorpal> Gregor, it was XSI last I checked
15:00:36 <Gregor> strdup() conforms to SVr4, 4.3BSD, POSIX.1-2001.
15:00:52 <Vorpal> Gregor, I suggest you check POSIX docs itself
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15:04:27 <Vorpal> hm POSIX 2001 lists it as XSI, but POSIX 2008 lists it as CX
15:04:33 <Vorpal> what on earth is CX...
15:05:14 <Gregor> Vorpal: Good lawd, it's NOT in base >_<
15:05:16 <Vorpal> ah extension to C.. Right it is mandatory in POSIX-2008
15:05:22 <Gregor> HATE when man pages are wrong.
15:05:35 <Vorpal> Gregor, if you check the feature test macros you will see it
15:06:06 <Vorpal> Gregor, actually the man page is correct. It conforms to an option group described in POSIX.1-2001. The man page just doesn't say POSIX.1-2001 makes it optional
15:06:25 <Vorpal> _SVID_SOURCE || _BSD_SOURCE || _XOPEN_SOURCE >= 500 || _XOPEN_SOURCE && _XOPEN_SOURCE_EXTENDED
15:06:25 <Vorpal> || /* Since glibc 2.12: */ _POSIX_C_SOURCE >= 200809L
15:06:26 <Gregor> Oh, I thought the man pages listed which group it was in when it wasn't in the base >_>
15:06:43 <Gregor> ... that's not in my man page!
15:06:54 <Vorpal> Gregor, it is in SYNOPSIS for me
15:07:09 <Vorpal> just below the prototypes
15:07:23 <Vorpal> let me check on a less bleeding edge system than arch
15:07:26 <Gregor> Gee, thanks for telling me how to get to the man page I'm ALREADY READING X_X
15:07:45 <Vorpal> on ubuntu lucid it lists: strdup(): _SVID_SOURCE || _BSD_SOURCE || _XOPEN_SOURCE >= 500
15:08:09 <Vorpal> Gregor, I thought you were maybe checking man 3p strdup
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15:09:35 <Vorpal> Gregor, your system must be outdated
15:15:53 <Fuco> Vorpal: is there some way to display the actual fungespace during execution?
15:16:25 <Vorpal> Fuco, no, it doesn't make much sense anyway, befunge-98 has a huge funge space
15:16:35 <Vorpal> and well, mycology is huge, so it never been useful to me
15:16:49 <Vorpal> Fuco, if you want a good debugger I suggest ccbi.
15:17:29 <Fuco> well I don't need to see *all* of it :P just the relevant part where I store data
15:17:35 <Fuco> well, where I *think* I store data :D
15:17:36 <Vorpal> Fuco, there is a .gdbinit in the tarball for cfunge, with some useful gdb macros. But mostly useful to me since I know the code
15:18:24 <Vorpal> Fuco, if you didn't make a release build you could attach gdb and call void fungespace_dumparea(funge_cell minx, funge_cell miny, funge_cell maxx, funge_cell maxy)
15:18:36 <Vorpal> but yeah for debugger, ccbi is more practical
15:19:41 <Vorpal> Fuco, my goal is usually to debug the interpreter, not the program
15:20:15 <Fuco> screw debugers, I'll do it like a man
15:20:20 <Fuco> with careful trial and error
15:21:12 <Vorpal> Fuco, you can use -t to make cfunge print what it is doing
15:21:23 <Vorpal> gives you different amounts of details
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15:21:43 <Vorpal> (I think -t 8 and -t 9 only differ in how much stuff they print for k
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15:30:05 <Vorpal> there. made some updates to cfunge (mostly docs)
15:30:44 <fizzie> fungot: Which version are you running on anyway?
15:30:45 <fungot> fizzie: it took part in the discussion?")
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15:36:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, you use a bzr checkout? bzr log | head
15:40:29 <oerjan> oklopol: do those first two axioms give you enough to do ordinary deduction with -> ? if so you can get from !!p -> (!!!!p -> !!p) to !!p -> (!!p -> p) and then to !!p -> p.
15:42:34 <oklopol> oerjan: yeah they give you intuitionistic logic afaik
15:43:33 <oklopol> so from (!!!!p -> !!p) you can get to (!!p -> p) by using #3 twice
15:43:52 <oklopol> and we need to do that inside the -> clause
15:44:05 <Vorpal> Deewiant, you realise that total memory on http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/fungicide-rankings/ is quite useless?
15:44:05 <oklopol> yeah that's certainly possible
15:44:11 <Vorpal> Deewiant, a lot is after all fixed overhead
15:44:38 <oklopol> oerjan: oh we just need a>b, b>c => a>c?
15:45:10 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I mean, cfunge will allocate quite a lot in one go at the start. And even for those that don't you are counting stuff like size of memory mapped libc.so a number of times
15:45:19 <oerjan> that and (p -> (p -> r)) -> (p -> r)
15:45:20 <Fuco> STRN 'D' instruction works really weirdly ;D
15:45:36 <Deewiant> Vorpal: You might want an interpreter that /doesn't/ allocate quite a lot in one go.
15:45:48 <Fuco> looks like it goes to the beginning of the line each time you print something
15:46:03 <oklopol> (p -> (p -> r)) => (p -> p) -> (p -> r)
15:46:11 <Vorpal> Deewiant, but malloc in libc already does!
15:46:18 <oklopol> => (p -> r) since p->p follows easily from #1 and #2
15:46:23 <Vorpal> <Fuco> looks like it goes to the beginning of the line each time you print something <-- no?
15:46:25 <oerjan> i couldn't immediately see how to get p->p
15:46:32 <Vorpal> Fuco, you must be using NCRS or something
15:46:46 <Vorpal> Fuco, or maybe you have a \n at the start of it?
15:47:10 <Vorpal> it is simply stack_pop_string(ip->stack, NULL); and fputs((char*)s, stdout);
15:47:15 <Vorpal> (plus some error checking)
15:47:33 <Vorpal> (cfunge uses unsigned char internally)
15:47:38 <oklopol> (p -> (q -> p)) -> ((p -> q) -> (p -> p)) => (p -> q) -> (p -> p) gives you p -> p
15:48:04 <oklopol> because q can be anything, in particular you can just use p -> (q -> p)
15:48:10 <Vorpal> speaking of which, I should avoid going to char for strings unless I'm doing IO
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15:48:56 <Vorpal> Deewiant, you don't test for that! If popped strings are casted to char* or are kept as cell*
15:49:16 <Vorpal> Deewiant, what does ccbi do there
15:49:27 <oklopol> we do what i did, but use q->p instead of q to get (p -> ((q -> p) -> p)) -> ((p -> (q -> p)) -> (p -> p)) => (p -> (q -> p)) -> (p -> p), then you get p->p
15:49:37 <Vorpal> Deewiant, STRN C (strcmp) for example
15:49:57 <Vorpal> Deewiant, does it compare them as arrays of cell, or as arrays of chars
15:50:13 <Deewiant> Beats me. Not as if it's specified anyway :-P
15:50:50 <Vorpal> Deewiant, right, could affect other fingerprints too. I see I'm somewhat inconsistent in STRN, some things are done as char* some as array of cells directly (due to never using pop string function)
15:51:40 <Vorpal> most cases I use stack_pop_string seems to be IO
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15:58:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, you might want to update cfunge that fungot runs on if older than r823. There are some fixes for bug in STRN (which you use iirc) since then
15:58:06 <fungot> Vorpal: toys is so vague it is hard to understand why pretentiousness doesn't carry past a single generation
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15:58:29 <Vorpal> TOYS butterfly operation certainly is
15:58:49 <Vorpal> not sure about which generations you mean
15:59:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, sorry, make that r850
16:29:15 <Vorpal> this is awesome, and utterly scary. I would never dare use it: https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Conversion_from_Ext3
16:31:33 <tswett_56> copumpkin: quit responding to tweets in IRC! I never understand what you're tlaking about! :P
16:32:56 <tswett_56> Since I'm not a fan of security through obscurity, here's the phrase copumpkin was referring to:
16:33:00 <tswett_56> "The bagel exam is out. I've scurried over to MAK."
16:34:34 -!- tswett_56 has changed nick to tswett.
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16:54:16 <Vorpal> I look forward to btrfs becoming stable
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17:01:26 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklopol> we do what i did, but use q->p instead of q to get (p -> ((q -> p) -> p)) -> ((p -> (q -> p)) -> (p -> p)) => (p -> (q -> p)) -> (p -> p), then you get p->p
17:02:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Have you been trying to prove p → p from p→(q→p) and (p→(q→r))→((p→q)→(p→r))?
17:03:35 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i have been trying to prove what i said i was trying to prove, so no
17:04:01 <oklopol> what we did was prove !!p -> p
17:04:41 <oklopol> kind of obvious once i applied oerjan to get the starting point !!p -> (!!!!p -> !!p)
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17:20:58 <cheater99> I heard Ørjan had an evil twin, his name was Örjan
17:38:50 <Vorpal> cheater99, strange for a twin to use a different alphabet.
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18:04:40 <Ilari> Hah, Linux times out connection attempts to unreachable on-link hosts in 3 seconds (with "no route to host" error).
18:04:58 <oklofok> tswett: voi saatanan saatana
18:07:12 <tswett> Terve. Minä olen kivi.
18:07:46 <tswett> Sinä myös oletko kivi?
18:08:34 <Deewiant> s/ä myös oletko/äkö myös olet/
18:08:58 <oklofok> also oletko sin mys kivi is better
18:09:16 <oklofok> even though it's ambiguous
18:09:26 <Deewiant> "You, too, are?" vs "are you also?"
18:09:27 <tswett> Finnish also does inversion like that?
18:10:11 <tswett> Is it the same ambiguity that "Are you a stone as well?" has in English?
18:10:38 <oklofok> yeah true exactly same thing as in english
18:11:05 <tswett> Kivi kuva kivi kuva kivi kuva. Kivi syö kuvan. Kuva ei syö kivin.
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18:11:59 <oklofok> can't use genitive with negation
18:12:24 <tswett> Kuva ei syö kiveä. And it's the partitive because it's negated, there?
18:12:40 <oklofok> yes, in positive you can say both kiven and kive
18:12:46 <cheater99> Vorpal: but then you realize that he's the.. EVIL twin
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18:14:13 <tswett> Lasken, lasket, laskee, laske. Minä, minun, minua, minut.
18:14:22 <tswett> Koira laskee minut irti.
18:15:33 <tswett> That depends; what does "laskea irti" mean?
18:23:47 <tswett> -Ni, -si, -nsa. Koirani tappaa koiransi.
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18:25:26 <tswett> Do you drop the declension for possessive suffixes or something?
18:26:07 <Deewiant> I'm not sure what you're trying to mean with -nsi
18:26:21 <tswett> The accusative and second-person possessive.
18:27:39 <oklofok> koirallani on koiraltasi saatuja karvoja
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18:29:48 <tswett> I'll have to correct Google Translate's "my dog is koiraltasi from hairs" later. Right now, I have to go outside or something.
18:29:53 <tswett> Forgive the Unicode disaster.
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19:05:07 <elliott> where's oerjan where you need him
19:05:08 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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19:26:29 <olsner> elliott: why/when would you ever need him?
19:39:01 <oklofok> well it's hard to get oerjan to think for you, it's just he doesn't have to think to solve all my problems
19:39:16 <oklofok> (disclaimer: may not be true)
19:48:59 <elliott> if (interned == NIL) ptr = interned = cons(NIL, NIL);
19:48:59 <elliott> if (!strcmp((char *) CAR(record), s)) {
19:50:22 <elliott> I need the symbol NIL to make NIL, so I need to intern it, but the interning code relies on NIL :P
19:55:26 <elliott> Bleh, my architecture, it is broken.
19:55:57 <elliott> It looks like I _do_ need three-conses.
19:56:27 <olsner> elliott: you're probably doing it wrong, whatever it is
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20:00:51 <Gregor> elliott: I'm disappointed by 77lang's restrictive word size, but unsure how to extend it without creating endianness problems.
20:01:31 <Gregor> That might be complicated in <140 bytes.
20:01:37 <elliott> Gregor: But srsly, I think some kind of ByteByte thing might work.
20:01:57 <elliott> Gregor: Say, an X[asterisk]X-bit WordWordJump.
20:02:03 <elliott> Where X is sizeof(int)timeseight
20:04:11 <Gregor> elliott: Upon reading wiki page: BECOMING LESS CONVINCED
20:04:18 <elliott> Gregor: Like I said, use the same size.
20:04:21 <elliott> So there's no casting involved.
20:04:34 <Gregor> elliott: That doesn't solve the word size issue, although it MIGHT be smaller.
20:05:04 <elliott> for(;;){m[p[1]]=m[*p];p=m+p[2];}
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20:05:08 <elliott> That's a pretty short main loop /shrug
20:05:24 <elliott> Gregor: It'd be word-size specific, but you could just assume int is thirty-two bits :P
20:05:36 <Gregor> elliott: If I use int, then it's endianness-specific.
20:05:53 <elliott> Endianness will always be an issue unless you use char, end of story :P
20:06:02 <Gregor> I REFUSE TO ACCEPT THAT
20:06:12 <Gregor> I SHALL INTRODUCE A SEGMENT REGISTER
20:06:32 <Gregor> Hard to imagine I could get a cyclic tag system in little C >_>
20:06:44 <Gregor> Because it's fucking C :P
20:07:53 <elliott> Gregor: And self-BCT is "maybe" TC.
20:08:20 <elliott> BCT where data string = program string.
20:10:37 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/tQoZq.jpg
20:15:18 <tswett> I think C is the most platform-dependent platform-independent language I know of.
20:16:38 <Gregor> I think that honor goes to ... a.out :P
20:17:31 <tswett> Does a.out contain machine code?
20:18:04 <Gregor> Yes, but the "language" a.out doesn't specify the machine code, a.out itself is platform-independent.
20:18:24 <Gregor> You can load an x86 a.out file on ARM, and it'll load ... it just won't run.
20:18:40 <olsner> it just *might* not run
20:18:59 <olsner> you could conceivably write arm/x86 polyglots
20:19:02 <Gregor> But that's the point, it's not up to the a.out language to know or care.
20:19:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Although a.out isn't an a.out file and hasn't been for ages
20:19:37 <Gregor> I'm not talking about the output of cc, I'm talking about a.out.
20:20:02 <elliott> ELF is more portable than a.out these days :P
20:20:13 <Gregor> Yeah, but a.out requires a fuckload less thought :)
20:20:32 <olsner> ELF has headers that specify the architecture, not portable at all
20:20:43 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: OMG WE KNOW THAT YOU'RE NOT TELLING US ANYTHING SHUT UP
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20:25:04 <monqy> I didn't read what phantom_hoover said but I agree with gregor
20:32:03 <Gregor> elliott: I just realized that even ignoring the endianness issue, changing to int breaks everything because gets() will only read 'til a NULL, so every pointer would need to be to at least 0x01010101 >_>
20:32:45 <Gregor> Errr ... and so would all jump offsets <_<
20:33:06 <Gregor> Straightline code is at zero. Data and other code is at 16MB. Final output ... is at 0 again.
20:33:42 <Gregor> My ability to use number names and numbers consistently is at ze0.
20:36:23 <oklofok> i think i need some radio silence
20:36:33 -!- oklofok has quit.
20:37:27 <olsner> radio silence? I guess the russians are invading again
20:37:43 <olsner> god forbid they get their hands on our esoterica
20:38:09 -!- Gregor has set topic: We are now taking up collections for the "elliott needs a sense of fnarf" fund | GOD BLESS CAPITALISM | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Some logs also available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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21:05:16 <Gregor> Apr 19 23:27:52 <elliott> Yahweasel: OK, I've figured out the problem.
21:05:16 <Gregor> Apr 19 23:28:07 <elliott> Yahweasel: Your definition of "taste" is one that involves not having a nose.
21:05:16 <Gregor> Apr 19 23:28:14 <elliott> Therefore it is utterly unrelated to the sense known as "taste".
21:06:02 <Gregor> Apr 19 23:28:18 <elliott> I propose you use the word "fnarf" instead.
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21:31:41 <elliott> ais523: how can your become-inactive promise actually be used?
21:32:14 <ais523> elliott: if you get me to transfer it to you, you can cash it and I become inactive
21:32:35 <ais523> in order to get me to transfer it to you, you'd need to give me something of approximately equal or greater value in return
21:32:35 <elliott> ais523: hmm, is there no Promise infrastructure for pledging to transfer them somehow?
21:32:41 <elliott> like, promising to transfer a promise :-D
21:32:56 <elliott> also, can't you immediately become active again?
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21:36:34 <ais523> but I'm not imposing a period of time on anyone else's version either
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21:37:04 <ais523> the ability to inactivate someone so that they miss a key deadline (via timing scam) is incredibly useful, though
21:37:11 <ais523> which is why I collect them whenever such a rule exists
21:38:03 <elliott> <elliott> ais523: hmm, is there no Promise infrastructure for pledging to transfer them somehow?
21:38:17 <ais523> elliott: no there isn't
21:38:24 <elliott> ais523: anyway, I'll trade it to you for a Promise that I cash in your Promise
21:38:27 <ais523> there's meant to be an element of trust involved here
21:38:38 <tswett> ais523: you can't just make a Promise to do it?
21:38:40 <elliott> that way, you can cash the promise I give you immediately, and become inactive immediately
21:38:41 <ais523> elliott: err, that's a little indirect
21:38:43 <elliott> then become immediately active again
21:38:54 <elliott> ais523: yep, but it puts the power into your hands
21:39:01 <ais523> oh, umm, I'm confused now
21:39:35 <elliott> ais523: I'll Promise "I cash in ais523's Promise about going inactive, unless I do not have that Promise.", transfer that to you, and you can transfer the Promise in question to me
21:39:36 <ais523> it's also buggy, as if I hung onto the original promise, I could just destroy it, leaving my message with no referent when you tried to cash the indirect promise
21:39:42 <elliott> then, you can cash in on that promise to become inactive
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21:40:02 <ais523> oh, but I don't gain anything from that, right?
21:40:08 <ais523> all I get is the ability to indirectly make myself inactive
21:40:18 <ais523> and why would I want that, when I can directly make myself inactive instead?
21:40:21 <elliott> ais523: well, you get the satisfaction of confusing everything
21:40:26 <elliott> ais523: well, you get the satisfaction of confusing everybody slightly
21:40:36 <ais523> meh, I doubt I'll take up that offer
21:40:39 <elliott> ais523: What I'm trying to do is make the transfer one of very small values like that
21:40:59 <elliott> ais523: because I don't really have anything worth enough to get your actual Promise
21:41:08 <ais523> elliott: I'd just want you to make a similar promise yourself
21:41:18 <ais523> so then, you can make me inactive, and I can make you inactive
21:41:20 <elliott> ais523: I don't want to do that; that's boring
21:41:39 <elliott> Well, I might, but only if you really decide that confusing everyone isn't a good way to start the economy.
21:41:44 <elliott> Which would be a lame thing to decide.
21:43:13 <elliott> ais523: { I create a Promise "I cash in ais523's Promise to go inactive", with the condition {I, ehird, currently possess ais523's Promise to go inactive}, and transfer it to ais523. }
21:43:28 <ais523> elliott: but this is completely useless to me
21:43:41 <ais523> as this ends up with: you can make me go inactive; I can make me go inactive
21:43:45 <ais523> and I have no advantages at all
21:44:13 <ais523> it's like saying "could you give me £10, and in return I'll give you your £10 back if you ask for it and I haven't spent it yet"
21:44:19 <ais523> in what way does that benefit me?
21:46:16 <elliott> ais523: it doesn't benefit you in raw, hard currency at all. Note that I expect you to cash it immediately, thus removing my ability to make you go inactive.
21:46:30 <ais523> yes, but then nothing's happened, altogether
21:46:34 <ais523> so there's still no benefit
21:46:35 <elliott> ais523: The actual benefit is in the metagame, i.e. being vaguely confusing.
21:46:43 <elliott> ais523: By your logic, winning has no benefit.
21:46:59 <ais523> yes it does, because contribution towards a win is how I measure benefit in Agora
21:47:18 <elliott> ais523: you've never performed an action in Agora just because it was amusing?
21:47:30 <ais523> but I think that action is anti-amusing
21:47:52 <ais523> admittedly, my latest action is mostly amusement because win-by-paradox was repealed
21:48:09 <ais523> but I consider Agora's win conditions to mostly be well-crafted and interesting things to aim for
21:48:16 <ais523> and that holds true even after they've been repealed
21:48:33 <elliott> ais523: anti-amusing? how?
21:48:41 <ais523> because it's boring and random for no benefit
21:49:21 <ais523> also, there's a potential rules bug which makes me want to avoid becoming inactive even for a few seconds for no reason
21:49:24 <elliott> can Promises have lasting effects?
21:50:48 <ais523> can a message have lasting effects?
21:51:41 <elliott> ais523: what's a simple but illegal action?
21:51:54 <ais523> I'm not sure, in the current ruleset
21:51:56 <elliott> ah, intend to ratify something false
21:52:02 <elliott> A player SHALL NOT knowingly use or announce intent to use
21:52:02 <elliott> Ratification Without Objection to ratify a (prior to
21:52:02 <elliott> ratification) incorrect document when a corrected document could
21:52:02 <elliott> be produced with reasonable effort, unless the general nature of
21:52:07 <elliott> never mind, that's not as clear
21:52:13 <ais523> anyway, this is the wrong channel, and I don't really have much interest in continuing the conversation
21:54:28 <elliott> ais523: just transferred you a Promise
21:54:46 <elliott> gah, I forgot to specify a scope
21:55:43 <ais523> that's, umm, quite a promise
21:56:01 <elliott> I'm trying to create a Promise insanely valuable, but so personally harmful that you'll never cash it.
21:56:09 <elliott> Or transfer it to someone likely to cash it.
21:56:21 <elliott> I suppose it's only insanely valuable to someone who really hates me.
21:56:32 <elliott> Unfortunately the intent is wrong because it doesn't specify a scope.
21:56:39 <ais523> I could transfer it to someone who hates you, and they couldn't cash it anyway
21:56:49 <ais523> unless I gave you my inactivity promise
21:57:11 <ais523> or I could destroy it to save the recordkeepors some issue
21:57:14 <elliott> ais523: I was assuming that it was valuable enough for that to be a given.
21:57:25 <elliott> ais523: Given that it can be used to accomplish the same as me becoming inactive, just more destructively.
21:57:34 <ais523> otoh, I could use it myself, in that deregistering you has a stronger effect that inactivating you has
21:57:55 <elliott> Precisely, but I feel you're too Lawful Good to do that, because of the criminal cases that would result from the ratification intents.
21:58:17 <ais523> yes, but it's you who's doing the illegal actions, not me
21:58:35 <elliott> Yes, but I think you're too kind to make me do that.
21:58:55 <ais523> the illegal actions in question are also buggy, incidentally, and probably not illegal at all
22:00:16 <ais523> but I was pointing out that your promise is pretty much a straight deregistration
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22:01:21 <ais523> also, the condition is buggy; I can trade you my promise just before cashing yours
22:01:24 <elliott> ais523: yes, but only by accident
22:01:28 <ais523> then as you're deregistered, it goes to the L&FD
22:01:37 <ais523> so it's not a trade at all
22:02:47 * oerjan deposits 5 quatloos in the fnarf fund
22:07:12 <oerjan> <elliott> I need the symbol NIL to make NIL, so I need to intern it, but the interning code relies on NIL :P
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01:00:49 <pikhq> elliott: Can you tell me why this doesn't work as expected?; : foreach *.c | $(deps-%f) |> !cc |>
01:02:53 <pikhq> Seems that variables aren't expanded in order-only dependencies.
01:03:36 <pikhq> No, no, it's the %-bit that isn't.
01:07:46 <coppro> pikhq: are you talking to someone?
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01:29:09 <pikhq> coppro: Talking at elliott.
01:36:09 * oerjan pokes elliott with a stick, revealing a stuffed dummy
01:45:22 <tswett> Eturauhasen syöpä on eturauhasessa esiintyvä syöpä.
01:45:42 <oerjan> `translatefromto fi en Eturauhasen syöpä on eturauhasessa esiintyvä syöpä.
01:45:47 <HackEgo> Prostate cancer is the presence of prostate cancer.
01:45:58 <oerjan> that sounds reasonable
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01:46:45 <oerjan> `translatefromto fi en Koiran syöpä on koirassa esiintyvä syöpä.
01:46:47 <HackEgo> Dog cancer is the presence of dog cancer.
01:46:58 <oerjan> yay i get finnish grammar!
01:47:06 <tswett> `translate Riski sairastua siihen kasvaa 50 ikävuoden jälkeen.
01:47:07 <HackEgo> The risk of developing it increases after the age of 50.
01:47:34 <lament> `translate perkele perkele perkele
01:47:46 <oerjan> `translate Koira sairastua siihen kasvaa 50 ikävuoden koiraan.
01:47:48 <HackEgo> Sick dog to the age of 50 will increase your dog.
01:49:14 <tswett> `translate Vittun syöpä on vittussa esiintyvä syöpä.
01:49:15 <HackEgo> Vittun vittussa cancer is the presence of cancer.
01:49:16 <oerjan> `translate Koira sairastua siihen kasvaa 50 koiran jälkeen.
01:49:18 <HackEgo> Sick dog to the dog up by 50 after.
01:49:39 <tswett> `translate Banaanikärpänen (Drosophila melanogaster) on pieni kellanruskea mahlakärpäslaji, joka on jo vuosikymmenten ajan ollut yksi kokeellisen biologisen tutkimuksen tärkeimmistä malliorganismeista.
01:49:41 <HackEgo> Drosophila (Drosophila melanogaster) is a small fawn mahlakärpäslaji, which has for decades been one of the most important experimental biological research malliorganismeista.
01:49:58 <tswett> Meh, these aren't as good.
01:51:29 <tswett> `translatefromto en fi fly
01:51:41 <tswett> `translatefromto en fi Fly, fly!
01:52:13 <tswett> `translatefromto en fi Please please fly a fly a fly.
01:52:14 <HackEgo> Ole hyvä lentää lentää lentää.
01:53:56 <oerjan> `translatefromto en fi Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.
01:53:57 <HackEgo> Aika lentää kuin nuoli, hedelmä lentää kuin banaani.
01:54:30 <tswett> `translate hedelmä lentää kuin banaani
01:54:40 <elliott> <pikhq> elliott: Can you tell me why this doesn't work as expected?; : foreach *.c | $(deps-%f) |> !cc |>
01:54:49 <elliott> * oerjan pokes elliott with a stick, revealing a stuffed dummy
01:54:57 <elliott> oerjan: do you really think iwc will end at the candh point?
01:55:25 <pikhq> elliott: So as to be able to specify the ordered dependencies of something without requiring a lot of repetition.
01:55:49 <pikhq> elliott: Say, "such and such files depend on a autogenerated header file".
01:57:21 <pikhq> Also, thinking about it, I'm pretty sure that Tup isn't very nice for Haskell. Not, mind you, that that's really all that necessary.
01:57:37 <pikhq> After all, ghc --make or darcs.
01:59:15 <elliott> torrent is ninety four percent done
01:59:20 <elliott> and all i'm doing is seeding
02:00:55 <oerjan> as long as you aren't seething
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02:06:50 <elliott> ok this is ridiculous. SOMEONE UPLOAD TO ME
02:09:59 <Sgeo> elliott, what torrent?
02:10:09 <elliott> five billion gigaquads of goat porn
02:10:54 <oerjan> obviously fake, there aren't that many goats
02:11:06 <elliott> one goat can be in multiple porns
02:11:21 <tswett> It's actually just a single JPEG.
02:11:34 <elliott> no you don't. only i may see the goat porn.
02:11:40 <tswett> Created by taking a JPEG of goat porn and enlarging it.
02:11:51 <Lymia> porn.................
02:12:01 <elliott> Lymia: i see you're new here
02:12:12 <Lymia> My brain is scarred.
02:12:17 <oerjan> Lymia: i think of it as our local euphemism. i prefer not to think of what.
02:12:19 <Lymia> elliott, I think I've just succeed a few luck rolls.
02:12:38 <elliott> gotta love any channel where goat porn is the _euphemism_
02:12:47 <tswett> `translate Todos mis llaves son diablos.
02:13:19 <elliott> i wonder if it'd work without waiting for it all to download
02:13:22 <elliott> i'm sure isos have 0s on the end of them
02:16:01 <pikhq> Goatpornix, you mean.
02:16:32 <pikhq> Has a real *woody* sound to it, doesn't it? Gooorrrnix.
02:16:44 <elliott> pikhq: well it certainly gives me a woody
02:16:53 <oerjan> goatpornix, a rarely seen asterix character
02:17:14 <pikhq> oerjan: Insufficiently punny for Asterix, though.
02:17:23 <elliott> what's not punny about poat gorn
02:17:35 <pikhq> (yay, being one of a few Americans that has read Asterix)
02:19:30 <pikhq> ((yes, Asterix is basically unknown in the US))
02:19:54 <pikhq> (((much like Disney comics)))
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02:28:27 <pikhq> Graphviz has been running for quite a while.
02:28:44 <pikhq> This is going to be an absurd PNG.
02:30:43 <pikhq> The result of tup g . in ~/bsnes-tup. Because I was just curious how fucking abusrd it would be.
02:31:56 <pikhq> dot: graph is too large for cairo-renderer bitmaps. Scaling by 0.12547 to fit
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02:32:28 <pikhq> 32767x182 PNG, entirely black.
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02:43:30 <elliott> does bsnes really have that many dependencies?
02:45:17 <oerjan> well obviously they mean bsnes
02:45:24 <elliott> note to self: VM password is outside password, but with the words spelled out
02:45:33 <elliott> with the numbers spelled out
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04:23:35 <pikhq> Gregor: Nice work on the topic.
04:23:41 <pikhq> elliott definitely needs a sense of fnarf.
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04:39:07 <pikhq> ... There are atheist members of Judaism (the religion)?!
04:40:01 <pikhq> I have no idea how the heck that works as a religious faith without a deity.
04:40:57 <pikhq> I mean, pretty much you're left with a list of traditions.
04:50:10 <Ilari> Hmmm... 25 years ago today: Chernobyl disaster. :-/
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04:54:46 <pikhq> As bad as the disaster itself was, no doubt the *worst* side effect of it was the complete end of new nuclear power...
04:55:21 <pikhq> Which has made nuclear power fairly unsafe, really. Most of the plants currently running *really* need to be shut down.
04:55:44 <pikhq> And we wouldn't have the Fukushima incident...
04:56:29 <coppro> Or at least if we did, we would be dealing with it better
04:56:34 <coppro> because better technologies would exist
04:56:39 <zzo38> Yes, there are better ways including wind, solar, and more. Someone told me wind is best.
04:56:46 <pikhq> coppro: No, we *really wouldn't* have the Fukushima incident.
04:56:53 <pikhq> coppro: Because the reactor would have been shut down. :P
04:57:11 <coppro> zzo38: Nuclear power is /actually/ the only sane long-term approach
04:57:13 <Ilari> At least chernobyl was quickly dealt with. Fukushima... Not so much. The accident was March 11, and the reactors are still spewing contamination.
04:57:29 <pikhq> It was actually scheduled to be shut down, but extended because the grid really needed the power.
04:57:58 <pikhq> Ilari: On the other hand, they evacuated the area before there could be notable health risks.
04:58:05 <pikhq> Ilari: Unlike Chernobyl.
04:58:29 <zzo38> coppro: I think there are better ways! (even if only insane people can use them, which I really doubt)
04:59:08 <coppro> zzo38: wind is okay, but a single wind generator doesn't produce much usuable power
04:59:11 <zzo38> Someone told me wind is best. But I think it is not best by itself, but it is good when combined with solar and so on.
04:59:22 <coppro> and they take up a lot of space
04:59:38 <pikhq> coppro: I'd imagine that in the *future* renewable sources could be entirely viable. Most probably solar and extensive storage.
05:00:01 <zzo38> I know solar is inefficient it does not make much power. Which is why you have to combine wind with solar.
05:00:05 <Ilari> PV is not good, Concentrated solar sould be relatively OK, at least it some places.
05:00:22 <pikhq> I highly doubt it'd be photovoltaic.
05:00:33 <pikhq> Alternately, fusion power...
05:00:36 <coppro> zzo38: No, it's inefficient in that current technologies produce less than is used to make the panel
05:00:45 <coppro> fusion is just nuclear with less risk
05:00:52 <Ilari> After all, constructing large mirror arrays is much easier than constructing large PV arrays.
05:01:21 <pikhq> But in any case. Of the *present* technologies, nuclear power is the only one that meets our needs and will last us more than ~20 years.
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05:02:21 <pikhq> Oh, sorry, there's about 100 years of coal reserves.
05:02:47 <pikhq> Mind you, we *really* need to get off of coal.
05:03:00 <coppro> Concentrated solar is good
05:03:10 <Ilari> At what rate? At what price? ... Oh, and that would do real "fun" things to the climate.
05:03:19 <coppro> but I doubt it's economical to run our grid off of it
05:03:47 <coppro> Ilari: Although ideally solar is still meaning that the net energy capture rate of earth is higher than before
05:03:47 <pikhq> Ilari: As I said, we really need to get off coal.
05:03:59 <coppro> pikhq: I think he was talking about solar
05:04:10 <coppro> running our power economy entirely on solar would seriously affect climate
05:04:15 <Ilari> But if you want to do _REALLY_ "fun" things to climate: Methane from Methane clathrates.
05:04:30 <pikhq> It doesn't matter *that* much that coal could last us ~100 years, because that shit is fucking dirty and dangerous.
05:04:43 <pikhq> coppro: True, it quite probably would.
05:05:27 <pikhq> coppro: Though given that a large portion of our power economy is actually causing a greenhouse effect ATM, it doesn't seem like it'd have a *worse* affect than our current scheme.
05:05:40 <coppro> pikhq: True, and the two might well cancel out
05:06:00 <Ilari> If a nuclear power plant spewed radioactive stuff like a coal plant does, it would get permissions revoked really really fast.
05:06:20 <coppro> but nuclear plants don't even generate that much stuff
05:06:39 <pikhq> Not to mention that mining coal is very dangerous.
05:06:43 <coppro> they are the superior technology in every respect except one
05:07:03 <Ilari> Relatively little stuff, but that stuff is frickin bad. And "reprocesing" is a taboo.
05:08:16 <zzo38> Maybe hydroelectric
05:08:33 <pikhq> Hydroelectric is a complete *nightmare* on ecosystems.
05:08:34 <Ilari> Also, advanced nuclear power technology is good way towards the bomb. So that tends to be looked down on.
05:09:31 <Ilari> The three things about any power source: How much we have? At what rate? At what price?
05:09:50 <coppro> power our society off of nuclear waste
05:10:03 <zzo38> Because there are three things, it means you need three sources.
05:10:16 <pikhq> coppro: That's called "nuclear reprocessing". :P
05:10:25 <coppro> pikhq: No, I mean the heat
05:10:39 <coppro> that stuff generates lots of heat
05:10:45 <pikhq> That's called "inefficient".
05:10:47 <Ilari> Also, there's neutron transmutation. But there's relatively little engineering on that.
05:10:56 <coppro> pikhq: Why? It's there and we're doing nothing with it
05:11:25 <pikhq> Okay, true. It's an improvement over literally doing nothing.
05:11:36 <zzo38> coppro: That might work (a bit).
05:11:44 <pikhq> But if we wanted to be *sane and rational* about it, we'd be using it as fuel in a reactor.
05:15:13 <coppro> but aren't some of the lighter products really difficult and inefficient to reprocess?
05:16:42 <oerjan> only the heavy elements can be reprocessed
05:17:04 <oerjan> the lighter ones mostly have _much_ shorter half-lives though, iirc
05:17:44 <coppro> cesium-137 seems to be pretty bad; really tough to handle and a half-life of 30 years
05:18:09 <coppro> strontium-90 is the other component of high-level waste; that stuff is easier to handle and can be usefule
05:18:11 <oerjan> um 30 years is _nothing_, i mean much shorter as opposed to _thousands_ of years
05:18:16 <coppro> according to wikipedia
05:18:32 <coppro> oerjan: The ones with huge half-lives are not very radioactive though
05:19:26 <pikhq> oerjan: The short-lived ones are just a royal pain *while they're still around*.
05:19:42 <oerjan> no but they are the ones that make people worry about having to store stuff long enough that our descendants may have forgotten their there...
05:20:17 <pikhq> Don't need to pull any Yucca Mountain shit to hide them away from society for eons, *but* it takes some extensive facilities.
05:21:33 <oerjan> anyway i read that we can run reactors for hundreds of years by reprocessing waste that has already been _made_
05:40:21 <Sgeo> About to take a Tylenol
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06:02:39 <zzo38> Did you know I made up a new D&D character for a separate campaign? I wrote a program on my TI-92 calculator to make up the name and ability scores of the character.
06:02:51 <zzo38> (These are two separate programs)
06:04:12 <zzo38> What is "ftgy"? (Also, I do not know your specific questions/comments about calling conventions)
06:06:13 <elliott> oiajfghoptejhiuroepksfdgjsokjbnkdospnb
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06:07:00 <pikhq> elliott: KAN YUU FIIRU? KAN YUU FIIRU ZATTO HAIBURIDDO REINBOU?
06:07:31 * pikhq mutters. Engrish. Why must it be common?
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06:07:38 <zzo38> elliott: I am not understand your question sorry?
06:07:45 <elliott> zzo38: its a good question
06:08:16 <elliott> And its a good question is the best a good question in the history of all the as good question, ever.
06:09:43 <zzo38> Maybe, but it is not the one that I understand.
06:09:53 <pikhq> (quote transcribed from "ハイブリッドレインボウ", by the pillows, from /LITTLE BUSTERS/)
06:10:17 <pikhq> (Yes, that is three different English abuses in a row)
06:10:20 <elliott> zzo38: Well, the a good question that is its a good question is one of the as good question, the assortment of all the best questions that can be said to be a, as in the adjective a, meaning that the as a good question of which its a good question is part of is a set of as good question.
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06:10:52 <elliott> none of you will ever realise the beauty of that statement
06:11:19 <pikhq> elliott: Use/mention.
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06:11:34 <elliott> pikhq: no use/mention distinction there
06:11:41 <elliott> apart from that, it's all use
06:12:00 <elliott> a good question : as good question :: surgeon general : surgeons general (compare a good questions, surgeons general)
06:12:31 <zzo38> OK, but that isn't a question.
06:13:56 <pikhq> elliott: In "surgeons general", the plural is on the noun.
06:14:10 <pikhq> Fossilized French-style adjective.
06:14:48 <pikhq> Though, as it so happens, the Surgeon General *is* a general.
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06:25:22 <zzo38> OK they are a general, but are they a surgeon? If not, "surgeons general" seem shouldn't sensible!
06:25:38 <zzo38> If they are, then both "surgeons general" and "surgeon generals" should be acceptabpe.
06:29:06 <elliott> surgeon general is close enough to a surgeon for the purpose here.
06:29:12 <elliott> surgeons general is the moar correct option
06:31:34 <pikhq> zzo38: He is both a surgeon and a general.
06:32:39 <pikhq> Namely, a general in the Public Health Service Commissioned Corps.
06:32:51 <zzo38> pikhq: Then both "surgeons general" and "surgeon generals" ought to be correct (even if it isn't).
06:33:28 <zzo38> At least, that is my logic on this idea, anyways
06:33:44 <pikhq> Either the first or second-highest ranking officer in the PHSCC, depending on whether the present Assistant Secretary for Health has opted to serve as a civilian.
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07:24:13 * Sgeo wanting to puke right now is probably unrelated to the Tylenol, right?
07:31:21 <elliott> it's aboslutely the tylenol's fault
07:31:25 <elliott> tylenol is known to cause puking
07:31:33 <elliott> usually it means something very bad
07:31:36 <elliott> i would go to the hospital
07:31:39 <elliott> and get a doctor to stop you from dying
07:31:44 <elliott> which is at this point likely
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07:36:26 <Sgeo> Maybe it's the lack of sleep?/
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09:43:20 <elliott> why did you join this channel
09:43:24 <elliott> if you were only planning to leave it
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09:54:27 <elliott> Gregor: link me to superturing plz
09:54:35 <elliott> need it for serious purposes
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11:35:39 <cheater99> lol: http://emilis.github.com/2011/04/12/usefullnes-of-inventing-languages.html
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12:09:18 <Lymia> cheater99, readable, but hard to write.
12:09:23 <Lymia> Plus, nothing an IDE can do.
12:13:22 <crystal-cola> I'll just tell it because it's fun: You flip a coin over and over again... you're only allowed to stop if at some point you've got >= 2/3 heads. What is the probability that you stop?
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13:01:31 <Lymia> I don't know how the fuck.
13:01:36 <Lymia> I think it's going to end up as a limit.
13:02:59 <Lymia> I /expect/ that it will either be a sum or an limit to infinity.
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13:14:49 <cheater99> 1. go into #php and say C is a high level programming language
13:52:23 <zzo38> Is this good list of equipment I selected in this D&D game? silver candelabra for holding 4 candles, false book, small magnet, slate board, folding table case, 5x wick (50ft), 5x twine (50ft), 4x plain copper ring, 7 pieces of chalk (each one a different color), 30 marbles (6 clear, 6 stone, 6 clay, 6 red, 6 green).
13:52:36 <zzo38> Total weight: 12 pounds.
14:00:37 <cheater99> sounds like you're playing a magician
14:03:08 <zzo38> Is that what it seems when you read this list?
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14:32:51 <zzo38> Did you believe this?
14:35:01 <zzo38> Tritonio: Do you even know what it is? Do you know why you joined this channel?
14:35:53 <Tritonio> I know what this room is. Although I don't know what you were talking about.
14:36:45 <zzo38> Good, because I was not addressing you with my other question. Although, you type the your own question for esoteric programming or whatever else.
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14:37:48 <elliott> Tritonio: welcome to zzo38
14:39:13 <Tritonio> So.... I've got a question. Is there ever going to be a brainfuck golf contest?
14:40:21 <Gregor> There have been BF gold tourneys in the past *shrugs*
14:41:22 <zzo38> They do have Brainfuck running in anarchy golf, although it is different than the Brainfuck Golf contests
14:41:52 <Tritonio> Yeap. Is there ever again going to be one?
14:42:41 <zzo38> I don't know if there is ever again going to be one.
14:43:29 <elliott> Tritonio: anarchy golf is http://golf.shinh.org/
14:43:43 <elliott> Tritonio: re another one - I doubt it, but ask dbc :P
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14:47:50 <Tritonio_Droid> Are toy sure this page works? It light he my reception though...
14:49:10 <Gregor> Are toy sure, \ this page works? \ It light, he \ my reception. \ Though ...
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14:49:50 <elliott> Gregor are toy \ Sure, this page works? It \ Light, he my \ reception. Though... A poem \ by Tritonio.
14:51:07 <Gregor> elliott \ Gregor \ are toy \ sure, \ this page works? \ It \ Light, he \ my \ reception. \ Though ... \ A poem \ by Tritonio. \ A poem \ by Gregor \ backslash
14:51:17 <Gregor> (Plagiarized from elliott)
14:51:44 <elliott> Gregor elliott gregor are \ Toy sure this \ page works it light he my \ reception though a poem by \ tritonio a \ poem by gregor \ backslash \backslash\ a poem by gregor \ plagiarsed
14:52:17 <Tritonio> Lolololol just saw what I wrote. Never mind... :)
14:52:26 <Gregor> "Someone plagiarized my poem and didn't give me credit." -- A poem by an anonymous author
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14:54:36 <Gregor> ais523, unaffiliated. ais523, has joined. Esoteric.
14:54:45 <Gregor> -- A poem by OK, seriously I'll stop now :P
14:56:16 <ais523> hmm, I take it you've been doing that for everyone joining for hours, from your attribution line
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15:14:46 <crystal-cola> not P or not P or not P or not P? - A poem by me
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15:44:15 <Ilari> APNIC: no allocations.
15:47:23 <ais523> do they have anything left to allocate?
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15:52:20 <Ilari> 0.989 blocks of IPv4 space. 0.991 blocks of IPv6 space.
15:53:20 <ais523> hmm, so they haven't run out of v4 space after all?
15:53:43 <ais523> or was a block returned, or something?
15:53:58 <Ilari> Well, they de-facto have, since allocations are heavily restricted.
15:54:10 <Ilari> lifthrasiir: IPv6 block is /12.
15:54:12 <lifthrasiir> ais523: i think Ilari meant the APNIC unallocated RIR pool
15:54:38 <lifthrasiir> so the global pool is over, but there is space left in the RIR pool
15:55:47 <Ilari> Well, only RIPE, ARIN, LACNIC and AFRINIC allocate IPv4 normally anymore. As for IANA, it is out of IPv4 blocks, but has 506 IPv6 blocks.
15:58:02 <crystal-cola> 1,2,4,8,16,32,64,68,128,136,256,272,512,544,1024,1088,1156,2048,2176,2312,2824,3104,4096
15:58:52 <Ilari> 5.054 blocks of IPv6 space allocated by IANA to RIRs total.
15:59:14 <Ilari> crystal-cola: Seems to at least have some of form 68*2^r.
16:00:41 <Ilari> And also numbers not of neither 2^r nor 68*2^r...
16:01:02 <ais523> it seems weird to factor out two 4s like that
16:02:08 <crystal-cola> some of the later ones have factors 97, 137 or 353
16:02:10 <myndzi\> i thought the point of ipv6 was to have a ridiculous amount of addresses
16:02:18 <myndzi\> why would anyone be low on ipv6 blocks?
16:03:12 <Ilari> myndzi\: Nobody is low on them.
16:03:32 <crystal-cola> http://pastie.org/pastes/1835747/text here are the factorizations of the first few of these
16:04:06 <myndzi\> i should think not, but i guess i wasn't comprehending very well
16:05:21 <Ilari> I also get that n can be 128*257.
16:06:03 <ais523> it seems to allow some numbers of the form 2^n(2^n+1)
16:06:06 <Ilari> myndzi\: Unlike IPv4 blocks which aren't all that large, IPv6 block is loads of address space.
16:06:30 <myndzi\> yeah, but 506 sounds awful scarce
16:06:50 <myndzi\> though i guess they'd be doling them out the same way as v4
16:06:53 <ais523> well, a /32 contains enough space for everyone currently connected to the Internet by itself
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16:07:08 <ais523> and there are over a million of those in a /12
16:07:23 <myndzi> i understand how vast the address space is ;) that was the source of my confusion
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16:08:53 <Ilari> Global RIR IPv6 allocations so far: 0.142 blocks. And thats nearly 10 billion /48s.
16:09:58 <crystal-cola> I tried plotting 2^n mod n but I don't see anything
16:13:21 <Ilari> And looks like if k is a solution, then all k*2^r are too.
16:14:59 <crystal-cola> oh that would explain why there are so many powers of 2 in there
16:16:29 <Ilari> Not all of those are of form 2^r or p*2^r: 1156 = 2^2 * 17^2.
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16:23:25 <Ilari> Wonder if there is some r such that 257^2*2^r is a solution. Or 17*257*2^r?
16:25:12 <Ilari> Indeed, there is for latter: r=7.
16:25:41 <Ilari> Well, if r=7 is a solution, then every r>=7 is.
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16:37:11 <Ilari> 257*257*2^7 also is a solution.
16:38:57 <Ilari> Except can any number of form 3*2^r be a solution?
16:39:44 <crystal-cola> I haven't seen any solutions of that form but I can't rule it out
16:42:16 <Ilari> If it is, then 3*2^r|(5^(3*2^r)-3^(3*2^r)) => 3*2^r|(5^(2^r)-3^(2^r))(25^(2^r)+15^(2^r)+9^(2^r)). Since 3 is prime, it must divide one of factors. But neither can be divisible by 3, thus there are no solutions of form 3*2^r.
16:45:35 <Ilari> It seems that the solutions are (I haven't proved this): 2^r, 17^a*2^r (r >= 2), 17^a*257^b*2^r (r >= 7) and 17^a*257^b*65537^c*2^r (r >= 15).
16:45:58 <crystal-cola> but there are some solutions with the primes 97,137,353 in them
16:46:46 <crystal-cola> my guess is that trick with the difference of cubes may also work for any fermat prime
16:47:38 <crystal-cola> oh, although it matters that one of the bases is 3
16:48:30 <Ilari> For 5, the bases in second factor will be 625(0), 375(0), 225(0), 135(0) and 81(1). Thus, there can't be solution of form 5*2^r either.
16:50:02 <Ilari> It almost seems like there are set of number pairs (a,b) such that you can multiply any solution k*2^r by a if r >= b and get a new solution.
16:53:13 <Ilari> So far found of those pairs: (1,0), (17, 2), (97, 5), (257, 7), (353, 3), (65537, 15)
16:53:28 <Ilari> I can't find a pair with a=137.
16:55:33 <crystal-cola> maybe 137 isn't relevant on it's own, since it always seems to be 17*1367
16:55:34 <crystal-cola> maybe 137 isn't relevant on it's own, since it always seems to be 17*137
16:59:48 <Ilari> Ah, there are pairs with non-prime a, such as (2329,2)
17:00:34 <crystal-cola> it seems hopeful that there could be just these pairs and they could generate all solutions
17:00:44 <Ilari> Yeah, but how many of them?
17:00:48 <crystal-cola> although maybe one should compute more to test that
17:01:19 <crystal-cola> well I was guessing these are all of them - but I probably haven't computed far enough to make that guess
17:02:21 <Ilari> At least there doesn't seem to be a pair (but I can't rule one out) with a=2^32+1
17:10:32 <Ilari> Found some more candidates: 136.
17:10:51 <crystal-cola> I am doing a search now but 136 didn't come up
17:11:13 <lifthrasiir> crystal-cola: where does the problem come from?
17:11:30 <lifthrasiir> i think it is quite a lengthy solution compared to the original statement ;)
17:11:50 <crystal-cola> lifthrasiir: yes diophantine seems to be able to compress more information than theoretically possible
17:12:01 <Ilari> That pair is even (136, 0)!
17:12:47 <lifthrasiir> and yeah, diophantine is quite a convoluted subject (at least for me...)
17:13:16 <crystal-cola> I think I should turn on my other computer and let it try to verify the conjecture of Ilari to very large numbers
17:13:36 <crystal-cola> although we probably need to find out exactly what the pairs are first... also this new search makes me think maybe there are infinitely many pairs
17:15:14 <crystal-cola> I should have bene looking at the factorized forms -_-
17:17:20 <Ilari> Oops, 136 is just 2^3*17.
17:17:41 <Ilari> Those numbers can't be even.
17:19:49 <Ilari> They can't be even because those multiples of 2 can be absorbed into r anyway!
17:19:53 <crystal-cola> I wonder if there was a way to look at it like
17:21:26 <Ilari> 23137 with unknown b.
17:22:22 <Ilari> But is there known pair with a=1361?
17:22:29 <crystal-cola> 17*26113 <-- this is odd because 26113 doesnt' seem to appear
17:22:45 <crystal-cola> it does seem like some numbers are "stuck" to 17
17:24:40 <crystal-cola> is it always the case that if k2^r is one then k2^{r+1} is?
17:25:42 <Ilari> crystal-cola: Yes.
17:26:43 <Ilari> 5^(2n)-3^(2n) = (5^n-3^n)(5^n+3^n). The first is divisible by n for some numbers, and the latter is divisible by 2 for any number.
17:31:09 <crystal-cola> so like 5^(17*2^6)-3^(17*2^6) = (5^(17*2^5)+3^(17*2^5))(5^(17*2^4)+3^(17*2^4))(5^(17*2^3)+3^(17*2^3))(5^(17*2^2)+3^(17*2^2))(5^(17*2^1)+3^(17*2^1))(5^17-3^6)
17:32:52 <crystal-cola> %7 = 114794370197489014450071927463032574073464515434335823575495306281286170747368778680268615229504
17:32:55 <crystal-cola> ? (5^(17*2^2)+3^(17*2^2))*(5^(17*2^1)+3^(17*2^1))*(5^(17*2^0)+3^(17*2^0))*(5^(17*2^0)-3^(17*2^0))
17:32:57 <crystal-cola> %8 = 114794370197489014450071927463032574073464515434335823575495306281286170747368778680268615229504
17:33:25 <crystal-cola> this doesn't help because the modulus is not prime
17:33:41 <crystal-cola> I was thinking it would just suffice to consider one of these factors.. but it doesn't
17:34:02 <Ilari> Pairs with a<=10^5, b<=100: (1, 0), (17, 2),(97, 5), (257, 7), (353, 3), (2329, 2), (7681, 8), (23137, 4), (36097, 8), (39899, 2), (65537, 15).
17:34:42 <crystal-cola> hm if 65537 is still the biggest.. do you think that could be all pairs?
17:36:53 <crystal-cola> it's a bit frustrating I can't see any pattern in theses numbers
17:38:29 <Ilari> I just searched OEIS. No luck. Either there's no sequence like that, or there are some small bases with large required r.
17:38:54 <crystal-cola> I was thinking maybe there is some way to take the "limit" of r -> infinity
17:39:15 <Ilari> Even more funky considering that there are some bases that are not prime there.
17:42:29 <Ilari> How could one even prove or disprove that if n1 and n2 are solutions then lcm(n1,n2) is too?
17:44:19 <crystal-cola> like if both 5^a-3^a and 5^b-3^b factr in certain wasy then 5^(lcm(a,b))-3^(lcm(a,b)) factors in those ways too?
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17:47:57 <quintopia> i wish i knew what problem this was about
17:48:24 <Ilari> quintopia: For what n, n|5^n-3^n?
17:50:09 <Ilari> Well, 5^(lcm(a,b))-3^(lcm(a,b)) has factors 5^a - 3^a and 5^b - 3^b. a = k1 * 2^r1, b = k2 * 2^r2. Therefore 5^(lcm(a,b))-3^(lcm(a,b)) has factor of lcm(k1, k2) * 2^max(r1, r2). = lcm(a, b).
17:52:03 <Ilari> There's one more thing to prove or disprove: k*2^r => k^l*2^r?
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18:02:09 <quintopia> it has no day of the day of the day of the day :/
18:02:18 <Ilari> If so, that should be enough with the others (k*2^r => k*2^(r+1), a and b => lcm(a, b)) to show complete set of pairs could be used to generate all solutions.
18:02:27 <elliott> it has solidity, so shaddup
18:04:22 <olsner> oh, did someone bring up matrices of solidities again?
18:05:11 <Ilari> Unfortunately, some k are non-prime (like that 2329).
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18:14:27 -!- Gregor has set topic: You can never escape your matrix of solidity. (fnarf) | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Some logs also available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:14:38 <Ilari> Oops, nope. Turns out even one 17 is enoug for a lot of 137s.
18:15:24 <elliott> fuckin matrices of solidity
18:16:31 <Ilari> There's r such that 17*137^2*2^r is a solution.
18:17:49 <Gregor> elliott: Similarly to magnets.
18:19:32 <Ilari> That would generate a lot of pairs if one had to generate those that way.
18:21:46 <Ilari> 37733 (97*389) behaves in similar manner.
18:23:50 <Ilari> Wonder if there's a k such that for no r k*2^r is a solution, but for some r, 257*k*2^r is.
18:26:15 <Ilari> Or k^l*2^r, but k*2^r isn't a solution.
18:29:50 <Ilari> And then, is there l such that 17*137^l*2^r isn't solution for any r?
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18:32:05 <ais523> elliott: oh, I needed to copy-and-paste a row of 10 8s
18:32:09 <ais523> so I typed it into my IRC client
18:32:19 <ais523> because I wanted to type 141 8s
18:32:26 <ais523> and it's a pain to count them all manually
18:33:23 <Ilari> ais523: Make a script that sends n times some string to PRIMARY?
18:33:39 <ais523> perhaps, but doing it this way is pretty simple
18:33:49 <elliott> isn't that perl and xclip or whatever?
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19:40:40 <Ilari> Also, is there some k that has solutions with two prime factors that don't have solutions for any r?
19:45:43 <Ilari> Well, there's k=17*137, where 137*2^r isn't a solution for any r. But can there be numbers with multiple factors like that 137?
19:48:29 <ais523> number theory is the #esoteric equivalent of TV Tropes
19:49:50 <Slereah> Because number theory is BORING
19:49:57 <crystal-cola> I think that the best thing to do would be to start building up a database of these k values
19:54:47 <Ilari> Also store the smallest r corresponding to each k.
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19:56:56 <Ilari> Also, one can use formula r(lcm(a,b)) = max(r(a),r(b)) to compress it a bit. But even with that, it is still likely infinite (due to powers).
19:58:59 <crystal-cola> I was just looking at 3 and 5 ^(k 2^r) mod k and mod 2^r sepeartely
19:59:17 <crystal-cola> it appears both are always 1 mod 2^r (I guess that's just eulers totient thing)
19:59:35 <crystal-cola> so the problem could be reduced to just considering mod k (maybe)
20:00:43 <crystal-cola> also it seems like mod k the patterns are periodic
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20:06:27 <Ilari> If 5^(2^r) == 1 (mod 2^r) and 3^(2^r) == 1 (mod 2^r) then that would really mean that one could calculate 5^(k*2^r)-3^(k*2^r) mod k and use that.
20:08:24 <Ilari> Okay, looks like those hold. So indeed, one wouldn't have to have that power of two term in divisior.
20:10:02 <crystal-cola> For a given k I think one can figure out the exact sequence of 5^(k*2^r) (mod k)
20:10:14 <Ilari> And that can be calculated from 5^k mod k and 3^k mod k.
20:11:44 <Ilari> That also yields a way to test small values of r really fast.
20:13:00 <crystal-cola> [9,13,16,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1]
20:13:54 <crystal-cola> it is periodic (happens to have period 1 but ignore that) after a 3 steps
20:14:07 <crystal-cola> I guess that every sequence will be periodic after some fixed number of steps (usually 0)
20:14:25 <crystal-cola> anyway, finding the pre-period should give the values of (k,r) in the pairs?
20:15:28 <Ilari> Well, period can be at most k^2 because limited number of states.
20:15:56 <crystal-cola> hmm does that mean every period length is a divisor of k^2?
20:16:27 <crystal-cola> too bad - that would have made it a bit easier, could just ignore the 'true' period length and use k^2 for everything
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20:19:15 <Ilari> k=19 (which doesn't have solutions) has period of length 6.
20:21:28 <Ilari> Oh, also this means that r_min < k^2.
20:25:36 <Ilari> Actually, if you want r_min, then you need to check all lesser ones. But that's almost as fast as just checking r = k^2.
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20:29:57 <oerjan> have you considered fermat's little theorem?
20:30:22 <oerjan> (a^(p-1) = 1 (mod p) for prime, gcd(a,p) = 1)
20:30:48 <oerjan> or a^p = a (mod p) for prime p generally
20:32:00 <oerjan> which means 3^(17*2^r) = (3^(2^r))^17 = 3^(2^r) (mod 17)
20:32:58 <oerjan> (i'd be surprised if you haven't, but you never know)
20:33:49 <oerjan> > [9^r `mod` 17 | r <- [1..]]
20:33:50 <lambdabot> [9,13,15,16,8,4,2,1,9,13,15,16,8,4,2,1,9,13,15,16,8,4,2,1,9,13,15,16,8,4,2,...
20:34:35 <oerjan> > [3^(2^r) `mod` 17 | r <- [1..]]
20:34:46 <oerjan> > take 10 [3^(2^r) `mod` 17 | r <- [1..]]
20:35:02 <oerjan> crystal-cola: @let function = value
20:35:25 <crystal-cola> @let modularPower b 0 n = 1 ; modularPower b e n = if (e `mod` 2 == 0) then ((modularPower b (e `div` 2) n) ^ 2) `mod` n else (b * (modularPower b (e-1) n)) `mod` n
20:35:44 <lambdabot> [9,13,16,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,...
20:36:33 <lambdabot> [8,13,16,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,...
20:37:23 <Ilari> Yeah, r_min=2 for k=17.
20:37:58 <crystal-cola> it's just luck they share the same pre-period suffixe
20:38:22 <crystal-cola> maybe that matters in terms of the composition
20:38:36 <Ilari> Actually, that test isn't as good as I thought. The basic problem is that the test for solutions takes k^2 time (which is actually exponential time!).
20:38:54 <lambdabot> [9,81,6561,54449,61869,19139,15028,282,13987,8224,65529,64,4096,65281,65536...
20:38:56 <lambdabot> [25,625,62940,59635,33457,64426,54655,58102,31534,255,65025,65533,16,256,65...
20:43:20 <Ilari> Actually, the maximum bound for r_min is (k-1)^2.
20:45:03 <Ilari> Anyway, r_min < k^2 if it exists at all.
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20:54:32 <oerjan> actually, irregular webcomic
20:54:56 <oerjan> but i guess if cake is good enough for you...
21:00:16 <Ilari> If one just wants to test a k: Compute A <- 5^k%k B <- 3^k%k then k² times A <- (A*A)%k, B <-(B*B)%k. If A == B, then there is a solution for k*2^r (r_min is number of times you have to do the squares before A == B)..
21:02:57 <Ilari> This also shows that for any k with solutions, 3 doesn't divide it.
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21:04:05 <oerjan> that's rather simpler, just note that 3 and 5 cannot divide 3^k-5^k ever
21:05:24 <Ilari> Which means k is one of 1, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23 or 29 modulo 30.
21:07:30 <oerjan> did you imply that if k1 and k2 are solutions, then so is lcm(k1,k2) ?
21:09:13 <Ilari> Actually, if n1 and n2 are, then lcm(n1,n2) is. Which is bit different.
21:09:35 <oerjan> erm right you are ignoring powers of 2 for the k's
21:10:14 <Ilari> Which also impiles that: r_min(lcm(k1,k2)) = max(r_min(k1),r_min(k2)).
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21:17:25 <Ilari> Now that it is possible to calculate valid k without gaps, I can confirm that OEIS doesn't have this sequence.
21:17:54 <oerjan> and no prime > 2 can be an n-type solution because of fermat's theorem
21:18:03 <crystal-cola> the sequence is missing a lot more than what the congruence obstructs, isn't it?
21:18:24 <oerjan> does it have the n sequence?
21:20:04 <oerjan> > [modularPower 3 n n | n <- [1..]]
21:20:07 <lambdabot> [0,1,0,1,3,3,3,1,0,9,3,9,3,9,12,1,3,9,3,1,6,9,3,9,18,9,0,25,3,9,3,1,27,9,12...
21:20:31 <lambdabot> [0,0,2,0,2,4,2,0,8,4,2,4,2,4,8,0,2,10,2,16,8,4,2,16,7,4,26,16,2,4,2,0,8,4,1...
21:20:42 <crystal-cola> 3 appears in this sequence really really far along
21:20:48 <Ilari> There are some pretty funky k in there. Like 2329(17*137). 17 is a valid k, but 137 isn't.
21:21:02 <crystal-cola> 4700063497 then 63130707451134435989380140059866138830623361447484274774099906755
21:21:10 <oerjan> one might consider using euler's totient function somehow...
21:21:37 <oerjan> (a^t(n) = 1 (mod n), gcd(a,n) = 1)
21:22:49 <oerjan> Ilari: didn't you say something about 17*137^r
21:23:20 <Ilari> Yeah, at least 17*137² is also valid k.
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21:37:32 <Ilari> Here are the confirmed pairs (up to 6 000, not using powers): (1, 0), (17, 2), (97, 5), (257, 7), (289, 2), (353, 3), (2329, 2) and (4913, 2).
21:40:37 <Gregor> MOXIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
21:41:13 <oerjan> moxie, the fnarfiest of beverages
21:42:36 <oerjan> at this rate we'll soon be needing an #esoteric dictionary
21:42:45 <Gregor> Your pathetic "taste" sense which you think in your ignorance is superior to fnarf doesn't allow you to experience the sheer degree of joy and pleasure.
21:42:57 <crystal-cola> @let zygotes = [1,17,97,257,289,353,2329,4913]
21:45:48 <oerjan> we shall have to rename hyposmia to euphnarphia
21:47:58 <Ilari> Probably there are further patterns. But none that would be easy to prove.
21:49:27 <crystal-cola> but I mean maybe there is just some formula that generates them all
21:49:34 <Ilari> Such as: Are all k of form 17^k valid?
21:50:33 <Ilari> What about 17*137^k?
21:57:18 <oerjan> do you have an example of n1, n2 where n1n2 isn't a solution?
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22:21:06 <oerjan> > [3^n-5^n | n <- [1..]]
22:21:07 <lambdabot> [-2,-16,-98,-544,-2882,-14896,-75938,-384064,-1933442,-9706576,-48650978,-2...
22:22:58 <oerjan> 16*16 doesn't divide 544
22:23:30 <oerjan> so you don't always have (3^m-5^m)(3^n-5^n)|(3^(mn)-5^(mn))
22:24:29 <crystal-cola> if m|3^m-5^m and n|3^n-5^n doesn't that imply mn|3^(mn)-5^(mn)?
22:24:47 <oerjan> well that's what we're asking...
22:26:09 <oerjan> > filter (\n -> (5^n-3^n)`mod`n==0) [1..]
22:26:59 <oerjan> > filter (\n -> modularPower 5 n n == modularPower 3 n n) [1..]
22:27:28 <oerjan> > take 20 $ filter (\n -> modularPower 5 n n == modularPower 3 n n) [1..]
22:27:29 <crystal-cola> > take 3 $ filter (\n -> modularPower 5 n n == modularPower 3 n n) [1..]
22:27:31 <lambdabot> [1,2,4,8,16,32,64,68,128,136,256,272,512,544,1024,1088,1156,2048,2176,2312]
22:28:23 <oerjan> we already know multiplying by 2^r preserves solutions, so those are uninteresting
22:28:51 <oerjan> > take 40 $ filter (\n -> modularPower 5 n n == modularPower 3 n n) [1..]
22:28:59 <crystal-cola> > take 3 $ filter (\n -> modularPower 5 n n == modularPower 3 n n) [1,3..]
22:29:16 <oerjan> um we have no odd examples
22:30:04 <oerjan> > (\n -> modularPower 5 n n == modularPower 3 n n) 4624
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22:31:57 <oerjan> > all (\n -> modularPower 5 n n == modularPower 3 n n) $ join (liftM2 (*)) [68,136,272,544,1088,1156,2176,2312]
22:33:03 <oerjan> > map (\n -> modularPower 5 n n == modularPower 3 n n) $ join (liftM2 (*)) [68,136,272,544,1088,1156,2176,2312]
22:33:04 <lambdabot> [True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True...
22:35:20 <Ilari> Looks like if n is a solution, ns is too, where s is any prime factor of n. This would imply that if n1 and n2 are solutions, n1*n2 is too.
22:35:30 <oerjan> > map (\n -> modularPower 5 n n == modularPower 3 n n) . reverse $ join (liftM2 (*)) [68,136,272,544,1088,1156,2176,2312]
22:35:31 <lambdabot> [True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True...
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22:35:48 <oerjan> ok so it is not a problem of modularPower being inefficient
22:35:53 <crystal-cola> > map (\b -> if b then 't' else 'f'). map (\n -> modularPower 5 n n == modularPower 3 n n) . reverse $ join (liftM2 (*)) [68,136,272,544,1088,1156,2176,2312]
22:35:54 <lambdabot> "tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt"
22:36:11 <oerjan> > all (\n -> modularPower 5 n n == modularPower 3 n n) $ join (liftM2 (*)) [68,136,272,544,1088,1156,2176,2312]
22:36:24 <oerjan> ok the Terminated was just a fluke
22:38:23 * oerjan realizes "hail" is ambiguous
22:39:01 <Ilari> Actually, it is much stronger, allowing likes of generating k=319073 out of k=2329 (with r_min of 2).
22:39:05 <pikhq> oerjan: The precipitation.
22:39:17 <pikhq> Colorado has decided to have confusing weather.
22:39:49 <pikhq> It was snowing earlier.
22:40:02 <oerjan> Ilari: oh hm didn't notice your previous sentence. yeah that would imply it.
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22:45:21 <Ilari> Assume n|5^n-3^n => 5^n-3^n = 0 (mod n). That is, 5^n = 3^n (mod n). Now, 5^(ns)-3^(ns) = (5^n)^s - (3^n)^s = (x1*n+x)^s - (x2*n+x)^s = (x1*n*s+x) - (x2*n*s+x) = x - x = 0 (mod ns) => ns|5^(ns)-3^(ns).
22:46:47 <Ilari> That assumes ns|n^2 => s|n (which is assumed).
22:47:24 <Ilari> Actually, s|n => ns|n^2.
22:50:13 <oerjan> well those are equivalent yes
22:53:20 <Ilari> This would allow considerable compression of base set needed to generate all solutions (it still might be infinite, but not due to powers).
22:53:38 <oerjan> ok i don't get the (x1*n+x)^s - (x2*n+x)^s = (x1*n*s+x) - (x2*n*s+x) step
22:56:20 <Ilari> All higher powers of n generate multiples of ns (and thus equal zero mod ns).
22:57:54 <oerjan> but i think the right side should then be (x1*n*x^(s-1)*s + x^s) - (x2*n*x^(s-1)*s + x^s)
23:01:12 <oerjan> hm wouldn't this mean the base set can only be infinite if there are infinitely many primes involved?
23:04:18 <Ilari> There are some non-primes involved as well.
23:04:37 <oerjan> um i mean all prime factors involved
23:05:21 <oerjan> in fact it's a corollary of that subsequence thing you've spoken about before, i think
23:05:25 <crystal-cola> some numbers are only appearing when taken together
23:06:11 <oerjan> "primes involved" does not mean that the solutions are primes
23:07:55 <oerjan> (if you write each solution using its ascending prime factorization, then if there are infinitely many with a finite set of prime factors then one must be a subsequence of another => one must divide the other)
23:08:15 <oerjan> *with a given finite set
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23:14:09 <Ilari> Irreducable pairs with k<10^6: (1, 0), (17, 2), (97, 5), (257, 7), (353, 3), (2329, 2), (7681, 8), (23137, 4), (36097, 8), (37733, 5), (39899, 2), (65537, 15), (150641, 5), (198593, 4), (259841, 8), (443921, 9), (550273, 4), (786433, 18), (828089, 5)
23:15:08 <oerjan> um the second element of the pair is just the power of 2 extracted, right?
23:15:29 <Ilari> Yes (actually the smallest possible).
23:15:53 <oerjan> so you should technically add (1, 1) to get everything generated :)
23:16:54 <oerjan> (1, 0) is sort of degenerate
23:17:53 <Ilari> Of course, one could write those as single numbers (a,b) => a*2^b, (except for (1, 0) => 2). Then one could write the solutions as lcm of some subset times factors of itself.
23:18:09 <Ilari> (of course, assuming lcm of nothing is 1).
23:18:31 <oerjan> in fact you sometimes _do_ need to include two numbers where one is a factor of the other, when the larger one adds a new prime
23:19:52 <Ilari> Actually, no, since one can just raise the factors independently. If you include 2329, no need to include 17.
23:20:17 <Ilari> You only need 17 to generate numbers that don't have 137 as factor.
23:20:35 <oerjan> 2329 doesn't give you all the information
23:20:51 <oerjan> (that 17 is a solution but 137 isn't)
23:22:17 <oerjan> and if you could combine them that way, you'd just end up replacing _every_ pair with their lcm
23:23:22 <oerjan> afaiac the base should consist of solutions such that no smaller number with the same prime factors is a solution
23:24:02 <oerjan> which both 17 and 2329 are
23:24:03 <Ilari> Then there are pairs irreducable k that are both semiprime but not coprime: 443921 and 550273 for instance.
23:25:14 <oerjan> > (`div` 17) <$> [443921, 550273]
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23:55:02 <oerjan> the ghost of primes past
23:56:00 <oerjan> > (`mod` 137) <$> [443921, 550273]
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00:41:49 <Sgeo> WHY WHY WHY does any computer charger I own invariably get such that it's flaky?
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03:02:19 * pikhq is still stunned at how very many build systems don't automagically handle dependencies.
03:10:35 <pikhq> Even the autotools way of handling it is better than some of the shit out there.
03:13:44 <pikhq> And why the pfargtle are there so many Makefile generators?
03:14:01 <pikhq> Topological sort is *not that hard* people!
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03:39:35 <coppro> pikhq: define: automagically
03:41:21 <pikhq> coppro: Without having to actually go to any effort to declare dependencies.
03:41:36 <coppro> pikhq: Does -MM and the like count?
03:42:13 <pikhq> I should be able to say "The following C files are in the following program. Make it fucking happen."
03:45:23 <pikhq> And Makefile generators are such a freaking stupid and pointless idea.
03:46:15 <pikhq> "Well, let's make this non-standard tool, which people will have to learn how to use, and install seperately... But let's make it use Make, because they're familiar with how to use Make, and its limitations!"
03:46:22 <pikhq> Worst of both worlds.
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03:49:14 * pikhq is especially confused by Automake.
03:49:50 <pikhq> Is there any particular reason they had to generate a Makefile, even then?
03:52:54 <Gregor> make understand dependencies and (in modern times) parallelism. By using Makefiles, you get incremental rebuilds and parallel builds nearly free.
03:54:15 <pikhq> Gregor: Didn't understand parallel builds back then.
03:54:53 <pikhq> Gregor: And Automake's documentation continues to advocate recursive make, which means it doesn't understand dependencies.
03:55:38 <Gregor> Hence "(in modern times)", and recursive make can be made to understand dependencies so long as the separate processes are sufficiently distinct.
03:55:59 <Gregor> Or, more precisely, it can be made to correctly not understand dependencies.
03:56:28 <pikhq> Yes, but it so rarely is made to do so.
03:57:01 <Gregor> And? You think some newfangled custom creation cobbled together from scripts and distributed as part of the source would do better?
03:57:34 <pikhq> I'm simply saying that Automake could have been a decent build system from the start, rather than a newfangled custom creation cobbled together from scripts.
03:58:05 <Gregor> Auto* set out to be something that could be run on any vaguely-Unixy system.
03:58:22 <Gregor> Its requirements are sh, make and a not-entirely-braindead suite of core utilities.
03:58:49 <Gregor> That's its DEVELOPER dependency.
03:58:57 <pikhq> Okay, fair enough.
03:59:07 <Gregor> No, not "fair enough", that's exactly what makes autotools autotools.
03:59:32 <Gregor> Mind you, that's mostly irrelevant nowadays, but in the context of its original design it makes sense.
04:00:43 <pikhq> Does it? Keep in mind that someone using it is almost certainly going to be building a C program, meaning that they also have a not-entirely-braindead C compiler.
04:01:19 <pikhq> Meaning that having a C program instead of a cobbled-together bunch of scripts would not be unreasonable.
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04:21:39 <pikhq> quintopia: Finland: the only place with winters Russia is afraid of.
04:22:56 <quintopia> isnt kliment a finnish name tho? was the russian commander a fin?
04:24:14 <pikhq> It's apparently a Slavicisation of Latin "CLEMENT".
04:26:34 <pikhq> Kliment Voroshilov was apparently a very notable Russian figure. One of the kinds of tanks used in that war was *named after him*.
04:26:44 <pikhq> He was ordering around Kliment Voroshilov tanks.
04:34:59 <quintopia> http://imgur.com/gallery/lEeOM look at first comment
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04:38:06 <quintopia> http://imgur.com/gallery/aBglP "who printed the man page for gcc?"
04:39:25 <pikhq> Looks more like the man page for mplayer.
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05:29:57 <pikhq> It's snowing rather *well*.
05:37:27 <pikhq> You know it's bad when a Norwegian is mocking you.
05:37:53 <oerjan> well it was snowing here only a couple weeks ago
05:38:37 <pikhq> Still a bit weird having it snowing this late in April.
05:40:20 <pikhq> Mind you, I shouldn't be so weirded out. I've had blizzards for my birthday (~a month ago)...
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07:13:13 <pikhq> What the what? "Quaint" and "cunt" are cognates.
07:13:50 <pikhq> Sorry, no, that's a bullshit claim that I should have read more about before posting.
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07:55:26 <olsner> pikhq: you shouldn't have corrected yourself
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08:25:15 <cheater99> http://www.simplimg.com/product_images/8ABpR.jpg
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09:34:36 <Sgeo> Is this a good guideline for knowing when to comment?: If you have to think about the code you're about to write, there should be a comment
10:12:13 <Fuco> no, if you have to think, you should rewrite it so it would be obvious
10:12:33 <Fuco> comments are mostly useless and indicate you don't know what you're doing:)
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10:18:22 <cheater99> you should only comment when the language does something a person less experienced would not notice
10:22:35 <vorik111> and there's a minimum level of experience you can expect that person to have.
10:22:55 <vorik111> depends on your corporate policy also.
10:23:35 <vorik111> commenting always referred to documentation for a particular managed change to the code.
10:24:20 <vorik111> "managed change" is the key oxymoron here :)
10:32:08 <Sgeo> I wanted to comment to write out a piece of math that I needed to write out before fully understanding what I was doing
10:33:15 <Sgeo> And now I'm screaming at C# for not having a nice comprehendible way of getting the lengths of single dimensions in a multidimensional array
10:36:27 <fizzie> What's wrong with foo.GetLength(0) .. foo.GetLength(n-1), where n is the number of dimensions?
10:36:50 <Sgeo> Me not checking that GetLength() takes a dimension
10:39:32 <Sgeo> This has to be done in 4.5 hours :(
10:43:25 <Sgeo> Wow. What I'm doing here crappily would be far better modelled in a prototype OOP system
10:43:32 <vorik111> comments don't need to stay. if you need a comment to organize your thoughts, do it. then erase the evidence of any noobery.
10:44:13 * Sgeo excises the bit that was manipulating a multidimensional array
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11:14:30 <Vorpal> going to be offline for a while. House shaking due to roof being replaced. This doesn't bode well for the HDDs. Besides it is time to clean the computer case.
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14:34:28 <Gregor> The behavior of fputws() depends on the LC_CTYPE category of the current locale.
14:34:28 <Gregor> In the absence of additional information passed to the fopen(3) call, it is reasonable to expect that fputws() will actually write the multibyte string corresponding to the wide-character string ws.
14:34:35 <Gregor> I love that last sentence.
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14:47:25 <Germille> you're the pro hacker on steroids that do crazy programming languages?
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14:57:07 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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15:27:45 <ais523> elliott: -> #scapegoat
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15:40:19 <Gregor> I wish dosbox had a curses mode.
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16:28:57 <ais523> hmm, I fear patent lawyers are going to birthday-paradox themselves at this rate
16:29:06 <ais523> patents are abbreviated to the last three digits of their numbers in legal filings
16:29:18 <ais523> so if you have more than about 30 patents mentioned in one filing, there's quite a large chance of a collision
16:30:23 <elliott> you could always disambiguate, presumably
16:31:15 <ais523> also, is "evinces" a real word?
16:31:22 <ais523> "This inequitable conduct evinces Microsoft’s unclean hands and taints Microsoft’s entire portfolio."
16:31:30 <ais523> surely they meant "evidences"? or is this something I'm missing
16:32:44 <elliott> evinces3rd person singular present of e·vince (Verb)
16:32:44 <elliott> 1. Reveal the presence of (a quality or feeling).
16:32:44 <elliott> 2. Be evidence of; indicate: "man's inhumanity to man as evinced in the use of torture". More »
16:32:51 <elliott> ais523: to evince something is to read it with Evince
16:32:58 <ais523> elliott: I like your definitoin better
16:32:59 <elliott> so, they took a look at Microsoft's unclean hands, in PDF form
16:34:06 <ais523> this is an actual Microsoft sues Linux (specifically Android, which is based on the Linux kernel but not most of the other stuff "Linux" implies) case, which is interesting that it's happened
16:35:27 <elliott> Microsoft really don't seem to give a shit about Linux
16:35:43 <elliott> they've made, like, a handful of adverts targeting it altogether, I can only think of one
16:35:45 <ais523> they only get upset at it where it competes with them, I think
16:35:54 <ais523> and on the desktop, it doesn't meaningfully
16:36:02 <ais523> they've attacked it quite heavily on the server, but mostly lost that battle
16:36:07 <ais523> and are starting to attack it in the portables space, now
16:36:13 <elliott> the one I'm thinking of was an old sever ad, yup
16:37:35 <Phantom_Hoover> <elliott> Microsoft really don't seem to give a shit about Linux ← hmm, I thought the big thing about the Halloween documents was that it demonstrated that they do, just not publicly.
16:38:04 <copumpkin> crystal-cola: what anti-gay attitude?
16:38:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Well, OK, but those are pretty oooold.
16:38:16 <ais523> to me, the Halloween documents demonstrated that they were aware it existed (not surprising), and were considering how much of a threat it was to their business model (also not surprising)
16:38:38 <ais523> I don't think they demonstrated that Linux was a serious threat to them then (it wasn't), but that they were keeping an eye on it just in case
16:38:57 <elliott> ais523: ISTR some kind of "crush" verbiage, but crushing things is kind of Microsoft's default stance.
16:50:40 <crystal-cola> it sucks that you can find teh galois group of a polynomial but still not know how to solve it
16:52:01 <elliott> yeah we should all be bob the builder instead
16:53:52 <crystal-cola> sincte left the bracketing out to make it remind of "a rose is a rose is a rose"
16:54:12 <crystal-cola> but the actual intended bracketing was not ((p or not p) or (not (p or not p)))
16:55:46 <crystal-cola> Problems of solvability and non-solvability of algebraic, transcendental and differential equa-
16:55:49 <crystal-cola> tions in explicit form, including Liouville theory, classical and differential Galois theory, and Picard-
16:55:52 <crystal-cola> Vessiot theory, will be addressed from the geometry and analysis point of view. The course will be
17:00:20 <crystal-cola> "So we've defined something very close to a uniform probability distribution on the integers, and all it took was the axiom of choice"
17:06:02 <crystal-cola> elliott: http://mathoverflow.net/questions/63127/is-this-joke-unfunny-closed
17:09:24 <elliott> i meant the mathoverflow links
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17:09:31 <crystal-cola> DAE think that the Kronecker Delta would be an awesome name for a spaceship
17:09:36 <crystal-cola> aside from being a very important term in linear algebra, haha.
17:10:10 <elliott> ok you're not answering my question
17:10:19 <crystal-cola> I'm no super-calculator or anything like that... But I love algebra. Basically math in everyday life.
17:10:22 <crystal-cola> The other day I worked out how long it would take to try each combination of sauce (15 Sauces, 2 sauces in a combination) on chicken strips in the cafeteria. When I mentioned this to one of my friends on a weekend trip, he basically laughed his ass off. Imagine my surprise... Why do my peers not see the sense in that??
17:11:06 <elliott> crystal-cola: are you going to...?
17:11:27 <elliott> <elliott> that's not an answer
17:11:27 <elliott> <crystal-cola> he didn't post his lecture notes
17:11:27 <elliott> <elliott> i meant the mathoverflow links
17:11:55 <elliott> i was asking "what is this" to the mathoverflow link
17:12:55 <crystal-cola> know any good tips for getting to sleep when you're nto that tired?O
17:14:10 <elliott> no, i'm terrible at falling asleep. melatonin seems to help quite a bit, though.
17:15:46 <ais523> you find it easier to sleep in the sun?
17:17:03 <ais523> isn't that the usual source of melatonin?
17:17:17 <elliott> crystal-cola: Melatonin (pronounced /ˌmɛləˈtoʊnɪn/ ( listen)), also known chemically as N-acetyl-5-methoxytryptamine,[1] is a naturally occurring compound found in animals, plants, and microbes.[2][3] In animals, circulating levels of the hormone melatonin vary in a daily cycle, thereby allowing the entrainment of the circadian rhythms of several biological functions.[4]
17:17:17 <elliott> Many biological effects of melatonin are produced through activation of melatonin receptors,[5] while others are due to its role as a pervasive and powerful antioxidant,[6] with a particular role in the protection of nuclear and mitochondrial DNA.[7]
17:17:18 <elliott> In mammals, melatonin is secreted into the blood by the pineal gland in the brain. Known as the "hormone of darkness", it is secreted in darkness in both day-active (diurnal) and night-active (nocturnal) animals.[8]
17:17:25 <elliott> tl;dr it regulates your circadian rhythm
17:17:30 <ais523> hmm, I've got it backwards, tehn
17:17:37 <elliott> its use as a supplement is pretty common in the US
17:17:47 <elliott> (where it's classified as a "dietary supplement")
17:18:17 <ais523> anyway, I find the best way to get to sleep at a particular time is to get into a rhythm; and also, to have to wake up early the next day
17:18:46 <elliott> ais523: I sleep easiest when I have nothing to do the next day, and find it absolutely impossible to get into any kind of rhythm
17:18:49 <ais523> (the latter situation is because humans are quite capable of falling asleep and waking up at will, but it isn't under conscious control, so you need to get your subconscious to do it somehow)
17:19:00 <elliott> (sometimes I flat-out cannot sleep at all because of having to get up early the next day)
17:19:09 <ais523> hmm, that's the other way round from me, then
17:19:15 <ais523> do you wake up 5 minutes before the time you set your alarm to, too?
17:19:28 <elliott> crystal-cola: erm, I mean I take it as a supplement
17:19:31 <ais523> crystal-cola: you could try the placebo effect
17:19:39 <ais523> if you believe you can fall asleep easily, you will
17:19:44 <elliott> i use the kiddie liquid bottle because i can't swallow pills :)
17:19:48 <ais523> so just practice lying until you fool yourself
17:19:52 <elliott> ais523: that only works for people who are good at self-delusion :)
17:20:05 <elliott> ais523: actually i find the idea of convincing myself i can fall asleep easily more horrifying than the gain of being able to do so
17:20:15 <ais523> elliott: I got better at swallowing pills, when I had to for three weeks
17:20:31 <elliott> <ais523> do you wake up 5 minutes before the time you set your alarm to, too?
17:20:33 <ais523> in the end, I decided that the best method was to swallow some water first, then physically force the pill down my own throat, using my fingers
17:20:38 <elliott> now alarms don't wake me at all
17:20:47 <ais523> which is quite different from the usual wash-the-pill-down method
17:20:58 <Gregor> <ais523> in the end, I decided that the best method was to swallow some water first, then physically force the p... down my own throat, ...
17:21:09 <ais523> Gregor: it was funnier the first time
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17:21:20 <elliott> Gregor: ...which is quite different from the usual wash-the-pill-down method
17:21:37 <elliott> ok, now on to less stupid things
17:21:46 <elliott> just kidding, everything we talk about is stupid
17:21:58 <elliott> yep i totally said you were stupid
17:22:47 <elliott> they totally ruined that whale song with their remix wtf
17:22:51 <elliott> guitar totally doesn't go with whale.
17:23:01 <elliott> or wait was that minecraft...
17:29:06 <elliott> achievements are perfectly ignorable.
17:32:44 <Ilari> APNIC: 3x1k+2x256+/32+/48 to Australia, 4x1k to China, 3x1k to India, 8x1k+2x/32 to Japan, 1k to Malaysia, 1k to New Caledonia, 1k to Taiwan, 3x1k to Vietnam.
17:32:56 <Ilari> Doesn't look good. :-/
17:41:21 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: No route to host).
17:41:54 -!- Tritonio has joined.
17:41:57 <Ilari> 0.9909328 blocks of IPv6 space free, 0.98796 blocks IPv4 space free.
17:44:00 <Ilari> crystal-cola: Any further progress with finding the base solutions of n|5^n-3^n? :-)
17:44:52 <crystal-cola> I can't remember if we proved that impossible or just 5 2^k impossible
17:46:11 <Ilari> crystal-cola: No, 3 or 5 can't divide n for any solution.
17:46:26 <crystal-cola> iin that case it means that 3 and 5 are invertible
17:47:14 <crystal-cola> I guess the problem with that is the value 5^-1 depends on n
17:47:26 <Ilari> Actually, only depends ok k.
17:47:47 <crystal-cola> I'm not sure if it can help a lot but who knows
17:49:03 <Ilari> 5^(k*2^r) == 3^(k*2^r) (mod k). Multiplying this yields: 1 == ((3/5)^k)^(2^r) (mod k).
17:50:00 <Ilari> (3/5)^k mod k is easy to calculate.
17:51:28 <Ilari> But x^(2^r) mod k isn't, since r has upper bound of k^2.
17:52:00 <Ilari> Invert 5 mod k, multiply mod k and use modexp.
17:52:43 <Ilari> Actually, if one could compute order of (3/5)^k mod k in Z_k...
17:53:50 <ais523> hmm, Slashdot are busy discussing the JavaScript "for (x in document.write) {document.write(x);}", which apparently crashes IE6
17:53:55 <ais523> I'm trying to figure out what, if anything, it means
17:55:19 <Gregor> That would write every property of document.write into the document.
17:55:52 <Gregor> However, document.write should have NO properties, so why that would do anything is beyond me.
17:55:56 <Gregor> But then, we are talking about IE6.
17:56:01 <Ilari> For k=17, 3/5 mod k is 4. 4^17 mod 17 is 4. The order of 4 is 4, and therefore r_min is 2.
17:56:06 <Gregor> For all I know, one of the properties is <meta lolcrashthebrowser />
17:56:06 <fizzie> It might have a "prototype" property. That's what I get for a random function.
17:56:25 <Gregor> fizzie: It should have a prototype property, but AFAIK that shouldn't be indexed by for...in.
17:56:53 <Gregor> Err, yeah, s/every/every enumerable/ above :P
17:57:13 <Ilari> crystal-cola: Basically, The order of (3/5)^k mod k in Z_k must be power of two for there be solutions of form k*2^r.
17:58:12 <Ilari> crystal-cola: Which actually brings r_min bound down to: r_min < k.
17:58:17 <fizzie> This is of course just an empirical test, but
17:58:18 <fizzie> js> function foo() { return 42; }
17:58:18 <fizzie> js> for (x in foo) print(x);
17:59:09 <crystal-cola> Ilari: I think that gives a very fast algorithm to to check it !
17:59:59 <Ilari> crystal-cola: Nope, it is still exponential.
18:00:32 <Gregor> fizzie: Hm. What engine?
18:00:34 <Ilari> And that inversion assumes k is not multiple of 5, but it can't be multiple of it anyway.
18:00:55 <Gregor> function foo() {}; for (var x in foo) print(x); // has no output for me
18:01:24 <fizzie> Gregor: ECMA-262 does say the "prototype" property has a false [[Enumerable]] attribute, so that sounds more right.
18:01:37 <fizzie> This "js" seems to be from Rhino.
18:01:43 <Gregor> fizzie: Which is why I'm curious what --- ah, Rhino.
18:01:51 <Gregor> Curious, Rhino shouldn't be so broken, it's from Mozilla :P
18:02:00 <Gregor> But then, until I came 'round, Narcissus was broken *flexes*
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18:06:50 <Ilari> Actually, even tighter bound: 2^r_min must divide phi(k).
18:09:41 <Ilari> And since phi(k) = prod((p_l-1)*p_l^(m_l-1)) and k is odd, this is the sum of power of two in all distinct prime factors of k.
18:10:13 <crystal-cola> that's a lot tighetr actually because the number of primes factors seems small
18:11:05 <Ilari> E.g. For k = 2329... 2329 = 17 * 136 -> r_min <= 4 + 3 = 7.
18:13:49 <Ilari> That's a vast improvement over old bound of 2329!
18:14:14 <crystal-cola> I think it can be used to compute a large amont fo data on the irreducible pairs
18:14:30 <crystal-cola> maybe that will be enough to find what they are
18:15:30 <Ilari> One can actually apply it to that 3^(k*2^r)==5^(k*2^r) (mod k) formula (which doesn't need element inversion.
18:16:47 <Ilari> In fact, with that sort of algorithm, the factorization of k is the only thing that is superpolynomial. The algorithm is subexponential with efficient integer factorization.
18:17:26 <crystal-cola> multiply all the odd ones together and check them
18:17:36 <Ilari> Actually: Even faster algorithm: phi(k) < k. Take ceil(log2(k)) as upper bound.
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18:23:20 <Ilari> Combined with powmod algorithm, the whole thing is fully polynomial-time.
18:24:40 * Sgeo wants to sneeze on his math professor
18:25:22 <Sgeo> crystal-cola, I'll let this channel decide that
18:27:20 <Ilari> And one doesn't need to factorize k values in order to tell if those are reducable or not: One can use gcd to extract the relevant factors.
18:28:00 <crystal-cola> hah I didn't think of that, that's really naet
18:28:44 <Sgeo> 624272c5c20b7799dc73c6050405d2ba41487c4b
18:29:11 <Sgeo> When looking at a uniform continuous probability distribution, is or is not the height of the line a probability?
18:30:30 <Ilari> Basically, compute gcds aginst all previous known irreducable k's, divide them out. Repeat until all gcds give 1. If the number is still not 1, then add the original to irreducables.
18:31:01 <ais523> `addquote <elliott> ais523: YOU WILL HAVE YOUR QUOTE SOON
18:31:06 <HackEgo> 382) <elliott> ais523: YOU WILL HAVE YOUR QUOTE SOON
18:31:42 <Ilari> Or add it anyway if r_min is smaller than largest among non-coprime irreducable k.
18:31:51 <Sgeo> Ilari, comment?
18:31:55 -!- elliott has joined.
18:32:01 <Sgeo> elliott, read logs?
18:32:03 <elliott> i have been paged, setting off grumpy bastard mode
18:32:26 <elliott> Sgeo: what are you paging me for
18:32:39 <Sgeo> To hopefully answer my question
18:32:53 <Ilari> Sgeo: It isn't a probabilty. It is probabilty density.
18:33:08 <Sgeo> That's what I thought
18:33:13 <Sgeo> Please tell my math professor
18:33:26 <Sgeo> And what I SHA-1'd: I assert that it is not a probability. I attempted to show examples where it would be 4, and where what he claimed was not compatible with using a more general formula he gave to work out the answer.
18:33:28 <Ilari> Sgeo: To have any real probabilty for some value in continuous distribution, you need a delta function at that value.
18:34:18 <Sgeo> What notation would one use for a probability density?
18:34:28 <Sgeo> I think he said "density" at one point, maybe, but dropped it later
18:34:40 <Sgeo> And did use P(X) as its label...
18:34:57 <Ilari> Given continuous distribution p(x) the probabilty for value in range [x1,x2] is int(p(x),x,x1,x2).
18:35:19 <Sgeo> Oh, so his notation is acceptable?
18:36:03 <Sgeo> Then why did he say that my example of a uniform distribution between 0 and 1/4 must be impossible, because P(X) would be 4 and that's not a valid probability
18:36:35 <Ilari> You can have uniform distribution over any finite interval.
18:36:56 <Sgeo> Maybe he misunderstood what I was saying?
18:37:05 * Sgeo , defender of idiots
18:37:16 <elliott> thank you, Sgeo, for obsoleting me entirely.
18:37:29 <Sgeo> Actually, he was pretty ticked at me. Told me to wipe the smug smile off my face, and asked if I wanted to teach the class
18:37:39 <elliott> it's funny because he teaches at a terrible college
18:38:05 <elliott> sort of like that obama guy what does he do all day anyway
18:38:24 <Ilari> With continuous distributions, the condition for validity is that the integral of probabilty desntity over support must be exactly 1.
18:38:49 <Sgeo> Ilari, is there a way to get you in contact with my math professor?
18:39:40 <lifthrasiir> yeah, the pdf is nothing to do with an actual probability; the integral of it is.
18:39:44 <crystal-cola> Sgeo: looks like you were right, so in my view you should just stop caring now
18:40:01 <crystal-cola> Sgeo: you said everything already, trying to convince him wont work - he might realize it though
18:40:09 <Sgeo> lifthrasiir, it occurs to me that he did say pdf
18:40:12 <lifthrasiir> and if your math professor did say so then it is unfortunate
18:41:26 <elliott> pdf is a document format idiots ;D
18:42:05 <Ilari> For discrete distribution, the sum of all probablities must equal 1 of course.
18:42:42 <Sgeo> I think in my attempts to understand him in a way that made him not an idiot, I asked if we were talking about discrete distributions. He said no.
18:42:46 <Ilari> And all discreate distributions can be represented as continuous ones (but that results in delta spikes).
18:43:00 <Sgeo> After I was done trying to present my proof, he decided to reteach me what a discrete distribution was
18:43:11 <Sgeo> crystal-cola, I just want to be certain that I'm not utterly mistaken
18:43:50 <elliott> <crystal-cola> just be right about everrything
18:43:50 <elliott> <crystal-cola> and deal with it
18:44:28 <crystal-cola> just write out the definition of probaility distribution or whatever it is
18:44:29 <Sgeo> crystal-cola, that's what I intended to do by asking here
18:44:37 <elliott> Sgeo: you could also try thinking
18:44:52 <crystal-cola> Sgeo: well can you say formall what it is you're wondering?
18:44:54 <Sgeo> It was my thinking that lead me to my conclusion that he was wrong
18:45:02 <elliott> comex: you scallywag: http://www.pastie.org/private/orzgwxc2ax80vrs8v0rew
18:45:22 <crystal-cola> Sgeo: in society we are normall taught that "if thinking makes you think $authority_figure is wrong, stop thinking"
18:46:00 <elliott> are we actually taught that explicitly or implicitly
18:46:08 <elliott> there's a difference between that and it arising from other teachings
18:47:10 <elliott> what an unusual occurrence!!!
18:47:25 <Ilari> Hah... If your doctor told you you have 4.0mmol/l of LDL in your blood, would you believe it? :-)
18:48:20 <Ilari> I wouldn't, because that is utterly ridiculous amount.
18:48:21 <Sgeo> crystal-cola, is there a theorem proving that probability distribution isn't probability?
18:48:37 <crystal-cola> Sgeo: no im just asking "what is it you're not certain about"
18:48:59 <Sgeo> crystal-cola, that somehow, by some means that I don't understand, my professor might be right somehow
18:49:07 <elliott> Ilari: i have 9009 mmol/l of LDL in my tiger blood.
18:49:16 <crystal-cola> im asking you what the mathematical statement is
18:49:26 <elliott> ugh, another esowiki link on proggit
18:49:28 <elliott> this is going to be painful
18:49:48 <Sgeo> Is <what I now know as a probability ... argh, a pdf> a probability?
18:49:54 <elliott> oh wow the joke is that it has fap in it
18:50:01 <elliott> so funny i made it in here years ago
18:50:50 <Sgeo> crystal-cola, what do you want?
18:51:05 <crystal-cola> you had some kind of disagreement with your teacher
18:51:15 <crystal-cola> what mathematical statement is it that you are questioning
18:51:34 <elliott> crystal-cola: i was attempting to help you communicate
18:51:45 <elliott> Sgeo: crystal-cola wants you to write out your disagreement in Coq
18:51:47 <Sgeo> crystal-cola, his claim, that 1/(b-a) in a continuous distribution is a probability of some sort
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18:53:53 <Sgeo> I'll take a picture
18:55:36 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/farXp.jpg
18:55:42 <lifthrasiir> Sgeo: http://m.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=normal+distribution+with+mean%3D0+sigma%3D0.01 pdf with a peak of ~40.
18:56:41 <elliott> get dijkstra to write it out for you
18:56:50 <crystal-cola> When you say that the probability of X = 160 in the example of uniform distribution was 1/50 did you mean P(159,5<X<160,5)? If not, see below;
18:57:11 <crystal-cola> how could I possible make sense of this without the context
18:59:34 <elliott> Sgeo: again, please restate in coq
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19:06:53 <elliott> 10:12:13: <Fuco> no, if you have to think, you should rewrite it so it would be obvious
19:06:53 <elliott> 10:12:33: <Fuco> comments are mostly useless and indicate you don't know what you're doing:)
19:07:05 <elliott> Fuco: this is true only when you are writing software requiring no complex algorithms whatsoever
19:07:34 <Fuco> what would be a complex algorithm
19:08:12 <elliott> it's true, applications that amount to an interface to a database require pretty much no commenting.
19:09:01 <Fuco> I'm currently working on big constraint solver library (www.unitime.org), there are hardly any comments in the code
19:09:17 <Fuco> the code can still be obvious
19:09:23 <Fuco> sure, you have to study the algorithm
19:09:32 <Fuco> but that's not the problem of how you rewrite it in some prog. language
19:10:06 <Fuco> but if I know I'm going to write IFS with perturbation counter or whatever, I can study that beforehand
19:10:12 <Fuco> and than write code that is understandable
19:10:20 <Fuco> for people who are familiar with it obviously
19:10:23 <elliott> well, it can easily be reductio-ad-absurdumed: if comments were never necessary, mathematical papers would have no English text
19:10:26 <Fuco> but otherwise you shouldn't read it anyway
19:10:39 <elliott> Fuco: that doesn't work if you're creating new algorithms for the purpose
19:10:43 <elliott> because nobody is familiar
19:10:54 <elliott> and telling people "hey go look at this paper I wrote" is just a comment that you've collapsed into a url
19:10:56 <Fuco> well that's what research papers are for
19:10:57 <elliott> and that is more likely to get out-of-date
19:11:44 <elliott> SO YOU CAN PRINT OUT A BOOK THAT'S YOUR PROGRAM
19:12:02 <elliott> AND THEN PUBLISH YOUR BOOKRAM IN THE RESEARCH JOURNALS
19:12:13 <cheater99> elliott: most mathematical papers are in chinese anzwazs.
19:12:14 <elliott> and everyone can scan it and OCR it and compile it
19:12:55 <Sgeo> Wasn't there a crypto book that was just the source code to a program?
19:13:38 -!- vorik111|zzz has changed nick to vorik111.
19:14:07 <cheater99> the human language text in mathematical proofs is not code duplication of the rest, unlike it is with comments
19:17:53 <Sgeo> I _just_ realized that I may have a password lying around with Sony
19:17:59 <Sgeo> I don't know if it's on PSN or not
19:18:41 <dnm_> Sego: _Cracking DES_ includes OCR-able source code.
19:19:14 <elliott> where did all these new people come from anyway
19:19:17 <Sgeo> My name is not Sg?? Eo??
19:19:21 <elliott> is it another one of those stealth invasions
19:19:41 <dnm_> Woops, I meant Sgeo.
19:19:50 <dnm_> I should have let tab completion do the job for me. l[
19:20:59 <Sgeo> Is station.sony.com connected to PSN?
19:21:20 <elliott> dnm_: Are you from the Haskell army.
19:21:57 <dnm_> What's my right against self-incrimination?
19:22:13 <dnm_> I use Haskell, but I'm not in the army.
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19:22:23 <elliott> dnm_: Absolutely nonexistent is what it is.
19:22:32 <elliott> I'm just verifying you're not one of those #haskell agents.
19:22:40 <dnm_> Has there been an influx of Haskellistas here?
19:23:10 <elliott> i think copumpkin did once
19:23:16 <Sgeo> "Representatives from SOE reminded people that SOE systems and databases are separate from PSN's"
19:23:20 <elliott> basically we're drowning in haskellers.
19:23:38 <elliott> it doesn't matter if you use haskell, it's being from there that's the issue :D
19:23:38 <dnm_> Well, a friend of mine who is into Haskell more than I am did tip me off to the channel.
19:23:50 <elliott> dnm_: who was it, we'll have them dispatched swiftly
19:23:52 <dnm_> And he probably frequents the channel.
19:23:55 <dnm_> He's not here.
19:24:09 <dnm_> He's been gone off IRC for about a week, I think he's busy.
19:24:16 <dnm_> He's a good guy.
19:24:18 <elliott> hmm, who's here and been off irc for about a week
19:24:40 <dnm_> I, on the other hand, am just a languages nut.
19:24:49 <elliott> I could grep for all names here in the past week, and then grep the current logs for all those names
19:24:53 <dnm_> Somehow I didn't know about this channel.
19:24:53 <elliott> and find the ones with no matches
19:25:03 <elliott> yes, this is a viable plan
19:25:03 <cheater99> dnm_: there's lots of places like this
19:25:06 * Sgeo stabs a guess at oerjan
19:25:19 <elliott> ok so monday is twentyfifth
19:25:30 <elliott> so wish i had my number keys round about now
19:25:39 <fungot> `1234567890-=~!@#$%^&*()_+
19:25:51 <dnm_> Why all the #haskell influx anyway?
19:26:01 <elliott> lots of people here are in there
19:26:07 <elliott> and mentioning this channel is fUN
19:26:24 <elliott> [~/logs/_esoteric]% echo 2011-04-[20-27].txt 1
19:26:25 <elliott> zsh: no matches found: 2011-04-[20-27].txt
19:26:25 <elliott> gah zsh stop being terrible :(
19:26:34 <crystal-cola> frustrating when people don't clarify their questions
19:30:28 <dnm_> 15:23 < dnm_> NOT TELLING.
19:30:36 <elliott> % for nick in `awk '/<.*>/ { gsub(/[<>]/, "", $2); print $2 }' 2011-04-{20,21,22,23,24,25}.txt | sort -u`; do if ! grep -c "$nick" 2011-04-{25,26,27}.txt >/dev/null; then echo $nick; fi; done
19:30:39 <elliott> look at this monster, people
19:30:45 <dnm_> I will not be your monkey..., er, oracle.
19:30:47 <elliott> wrote a long annoying shell line for him
19:30:52 <elliott> narrowed it down to very few people
19:30:56 <elliott> and yet still he tortures me so
19:31:40 <elliott> ah, hmm, perhaps it is rapido or Mathnerd314
19:31:53 <elliott> lifthrasiir: ok but it was still annoying to write :) bear in mind i have no number keys
19:31:56 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:32:22 <elliott> hmm, technically it could also be TeruFSX or FireFly, if they keep their irc client running while they're away
19:32:26 <dnm_> This wiki is great compared to the old catseye site.
19:32:37 <elliott> dnm_: lol, cat's eye just has cpressey's languages
19:32:56 <dnm_> Yeah, but it's what I was used to as my jumping off point for esolang stuff.
19:33:12 <elliott> the problem with the wiki is that... 90 percent of the languages are crap
19:33:24 <dnm_> I remember the epiphany I had when I first encountered Unlambda.
19:33:55 <elliott> argh, dnm_ connects through a vps so I can't use geolocation to track down who it could be
19:34:01 <elliott> i'm dedicated to my lynchings, me
19:34:48 <dnm_> I mean, you can find out where the VPS is.
19:35:04 <elliott> that doesn't exactly help, since anyone can buy a linode and it'll be in a us data centre
19:35:39 <elliott> i suppose i could interrogate everyone who comes back next week.
19:35:46 <dnm_> Though, I'm publicly logged on other freenode channels already. I'm in the D.C. area.
19:36:10 <elliott> YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS that narrows it down to absolutely everyone since this is the internet
19:36:31 -!- news-ham has joined.
19:36:31 <elliott> the news ham is right here
19:36:33 <dnm_> At least everyone is a finite number!
19:36:46 <news-ham> Kindle gets library book lending: Users of Amazon's Kindle e-reader will soon be able to borrow electronic books from libraries in the US. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/technology-13155967
19:37:24 <elliott> thank you for your valuable opinion
19:37:30 <news-ham> Urban birds have bigger brains: City dwelling birds have larger brains relative to their body size, according to scientists. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_9468000/9468306.stm
19:37:45 <elliott> crystal-cola: what exactly is pukeworthy about the kindle
19:37:51 <elliott> apart from the amazon shit
19:37:54 <news-ham> UK economy sees return to growth: The UK economy grew 0.5% in the first three months of this year, making up ground lost at the end of 2010. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/business-13206430
19:38:05 <news-ham> World Snooker live - O'Sullivan v Higgins: Three-time Crucible champions Ronnie O'Sullivan and John Higgins continue their battle for a spot in the World Championship semi-finals. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/sport1/hi/other_sports/snooker/9469117.stm
19:38:11 <elliott> i.e. the remote control bullshit which is irrelevant if you just pirate the books :)
19:38:19 <news-ham> Killed daredevil was new recruit: A stunt man who plunged to his death at a Kent show was a new recruit to the daredevil team, according to a friend. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-england-13205471
19:38:26 <elliott> did i leave it in debug mode
19:38:35 <news-ham> Ban on stem-cell patents 'wrong': Research involving human embryonic stem cells in Europe is under threat, says a group of leading scientists. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/health-13214036
19:39:18 <elliott> i'll paste a list, gimme a second
19:39:38 -!- news-ham has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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19:39:58 <elliott> crystal-cola: http://sprunge.us/ULSS
19:40:24 <elliott> crystal-cola: just mention it in your message. science and magic.
19:41:35 * dnm_ reads wiki page on DateFuck
19:41:45 <dnm_> Hillarious. Not what I was expecting.
19:41:45 <news-ham> 'More pupil benchmarks' to come: The English Baccalaureate is the first of many new performance measures, as ministers seek to make information available to parents in England, says Schools Minister Nick Gibb. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/education-13207055
19:42:03 <cheater99> news-ham: are you just being slow?
19:42:13 <elliott> yes, it starts with brainfuck and takes away all brainfuck instructions
19:42:34 <news-ham> Cutie does a cover of "6 Foot 7 Foot" by Lil Wayne...wait? Whats that in the background?!?!? http://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/gykip/cutie_does_a_cover_of_6_foot_7_foot_by_lil/
19:42:48 <elliott> it should return news about reddit instead
19:42:52 <dnm_> Phantom_Hoover: Doesn't seem to be.
19:43:16 <news-ham> Fed cuts US GDP growth forecast: The Federal Reserve cuts its economic growth forecast for this year, citing weaker growth than expected in the first three months of the year. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/business-13213424
19:43:32 <news-ham> McGee 'turns down' Creation drama: Former record label owner and musician Alan McGee turned down the chance to make a drama about his company Creation Records, he reveals. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13162825
19:43:41 <elliott> dnm_: Phantom_Hoover is three years old, he says hi.
19:43:43 <news-ham> Map of the route: Explore the processional route to be taken by the newly-married couple, from Westminster Abbey to Buckingham Palace. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-12819687
19:43:46 <news-ham> Climate change to hit US rivers: Scarce water supplies in the western US will probably dwindle further as a result of climate change, a US government report says. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-us-canada-13190689
19:44:00 <elliott> crystal-cola: do you actually have fingers or do you just kind of mash your face into the keyboard until you get the right sentence
19:44:42 <elliott> that's what my face says in response
19:46:27 <news-ham> Timings on the day: The following timings have been confirmed for royal wedding day. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-13097243
19:47:12 <dnm_> Speaking of news
19:47:15 <dnm_> http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-lay-scientist/2010/sep/24/1
19:48:42 <elliott> you haven't seen that before? :P
19:48:59 <dnm_> Not until earlier today.
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19:49:06 <dnm_> spacedino.png is my new mascot though
19:49:08 <elliott> well I guess Americans are a bit slow ;D ;D ;D
19:49:39 <dnm_> The article itself, or the style it mocks?
19:49:41 <elliott> it should carry the death penalty
19:49:46 <Sgeo> Maybe my professor didn't have probability confused with probability density, but is so terrible at correcting people that he didn't see that I thought he was saying "probability"
19:50:52 <elliott> it was written by a single blogger
19:51:00 <elliott> whose blog happens to be hosted by the Guardian
19:51:00 <Sgeo> Although then again, he suggested that the 0 to 1/4 situation that I set up must be impossible
19:51:15 <elliott> crystal-cola: ok, please show where Martin Robbins is guilty of what it mocks
19:51:39 <elliott> crystal-cola: isn't it obvious, it has no spelling mistakes
19:51:50 <elliott> i would like to see them print http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/9/24/1285359869220/spacedino.png though :D
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19:52:44 <elliott> maybe cover the whole front page with it
19:52:48 <elliott> YAKAWOW is of course the headline
19:53:41 <dnm_> "Ron Armontrout" is a great name.
19:54:02 <dnm_> (apropos of nothing)
19:54:44 <elliott> not as good as armouredtrout
19:55:00 <dnm_> I was thinking of Armortrout
19:55:04 <dnm_> But it seemed too easy.
19:55:26 <elliott> ron armontrout seems to be an Actual Name according to google
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19:56:46 <dnm_> He's a book author, among other things.
19:57:02 <elliott> nonsense, he has no wikipedia article
19:57:20 <dnm_> "Irina Lyublinskaya and her colleagues, Dr. Valeriy Ryzhik and Ron Armontrout, just finished a new book titled: Calculus Explorations with Geometry Expressions."
19:58:53 <elliott> it would have to be "calculus adventure fun"
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20:04:58 <dnm_> Teaching Calculus through Geometry Expressions (a graphical constraint-based geometric modeling and math tool)
20:05:05 <dnm_> http://www.geometryexpressions.com/
20:07:45 <crystal-cola> Cam Welcome to computerized mathematical modeling
20:07:52 <dnm_> The book? I have no idea, I don't have it. I have GX though, and I like it.
20:08:04 <Vorpal> uh, calculus is only tangentially related to geometry.
20:09:09 <elliott> dnm_: crystal-cola is two days old. he says hi.
20:09:43 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, your previous negative age explains so much
20:09:53 <elliott> Vorpal: no, i just hand over to a new elliott every seconds
20:10:16 <Vorpal> elliott, ah that explains it even better.
20:10:23 <elliott> dnm_: i swear this channel is occasionally interesting.
20:10:32 <Sgeo> Hello bluebird on my head, aren't you glad the old one's dead?
20:11:33 <Vorpal> one main issue is that a lot of the esoteric programming things were already discussed before. Someone needs to invent something new that oerjan can then prove TC.
20:11:48 <elliott> i never said it was interesting /esolang/ discussion :D
20:12:10 <elliott> crystal-cola: oolzybub and murphy
20:12:28 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Oozlybub_and_Murphy
20:12:28 <elliott> http://catseye.tc/projects/oozlybub-and-murphy/
20:12:40 <Vorpal> elliott, what about that one that switches interpreter every other instruction?
20:12:56 <elliott> Vorpal: that doesn't really make it hard
20:13:01 <elliott> it's not two interpreters, just two different "modes"
20:13:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Oozlybub and Murphy has possibly my favourite name ever.
20:13:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the justification is better
20:13:23 <elliott> The name of this language is Oozlybub and Murphy. Despite appearances, this name refers to a single language. The majority of the language is named Oozlybub. The fact that the language is not entirely named Oozlybub is named Murphy. Deal with it.
20:13:32 <Vorpal> elliott, indeed but iirc the computational class is not known?
20:13:44 <elliott> Vorpal: indeed, but it's strongly suspected to be sub-TC
20:14:02 <Vorpal> quite, but do you happen to remember what it was called?
20:15:44 <Vorpal> elliott, if the Goldbach Conjecture was false, what would the computational class of Oozlybub and Murphy be?
20:16:07 <Vorpal> elliott, yes but which sub-TC
20:16:12 <elliott> well, it wouldn't be able to infinite-loop.
20:16:16 <elliott> so not very good at all :)
20:16:28 <elliott> i think all loops would be fixed length
20:16:46 <Vorpal> elliott, yes yes... I gather that. But there is still quite a lot of different computational classes left to choose from
20:17:12 <Vorpal> elliott, for a start would it be bounded by input length?
20:17:35 -!- oerjan has joined.
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20:19:05 <Vorpal> "Once a dynast has been executed, it continues to exist until the program halts, but it may never be executed again." <-- hrrm, what significance does it have that it continues to exist?
20:19:08 -!- Germille has joined.
20:19:18 <elliott> i think the number of dynasts matter? dunno.
20:19:22 <elliott> it might just be more chris wackiness.
20:19:48 <Vorpal> like "TRIVIA PORTION OF SHOW"?
20:20:43 <Vorpal> elliott, I suspect cpressy is somewhat crazy.
20:20:54 <elliott> says the only sane and most boring person in here
20:21:05 <elliott> Latest news: 2011.0427: None can avoid the luminous precipitation of Oozlybub and Murphy version 1.1! Read more on our news page, or subscribe to our RSS feed.
20:21:08 <Vorpal> elliott, arguably I'm not completely sane. Or I wouldn't be in here.
20:21:16 <elliott> it wasn't there a few minutes ago when i checked
20:21:23 <elliott> April 27, 2011: Version 1.1 of the Oozlybub and Murphy programming language has been released. This update tries to clarify some of the errors in the specification while also slathering some extra goo onto it like a wimpmode. Enjoy, then enjoy again, then PLEASE DO KEEP ENJOYING UNTIL YOUR EYES BURN WITH DEEP DEEP CORROSION.
20:21:27 -!- pingveno has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:21:32 <Vorpal> (New in 1.1) An Oozlybub and Murphy program is in wimpmode if it
20:21:32 <Vorpal> declares a global variable of integer type which matches the string am a wimp,
20:21:45 <Vorpal> elliott, I saw that when I loaded it a few less minutes ago
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20:24:27 <oerjan> <Vorpal> elliott, arguably I'm not completely sane. Or I wouldn't be in here. <-- maybe your insanity is similar to Gregor's sense of taste
20:24:51 <elliott> also, it's his sense of smell
20:24:57 <Vorpal> oerjan, you mean, a lot of pink?
20:25:07 <Vorpal> or what sort of taste did you mean
20:25:10 <oerjan> ...not that kind of taste
20:25:18 <oerjan> actually maybe that too XD
20:25:35 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh you didn't mean "bad taste" as in "that colour combination is bad taste"?
20:25:40 <Vorpal> but actually literal taste?
20:25:59 <oerjan> no, i meant literally. you have not managed to miss Gregor's hyposmia too, have you?
20:26:14 <Vorpal> oerjan, I believe I have
20:26:27 <oerjan> Gregor: hey i corrected it!
20:26:42 <Gregor> It's only euphnarphia if it fnarfs good :P
20:26:49 <Vorpal> elliott, BY THE WAY. I had today free. I finished reading homestuck. Or I assume I did, I reached a point of no more "going forward" link.
20:27:05 <Vorpal> (I did it on another computer that has flash)
20:27:17 <oerjan> no eu- applies to the sense not to the fnarf
20:27:27 <elliott> It took me and Phantom_Hoover five days.
20:27:28 <Vorpal> elliott, plus a few hours yesterday evening yes
20:27:39 <elliott> You DID expand the pesterlogs right
20:27:50 <elliott> i'm going to step away slowly now
20:27:57 <elliott> you read three thousand seven hundred strips in one day
20:27:58 <Vorpal> elliott, and I read them. I did speed up reading the white guy one by using firebug to change bg colour
20:28:07 <Vorpal> but that was just a few comics
20:28:09 <elliott> Vorpal: erm i just used ctrl+A :D
20:28:23 <elliott> You didn't skip the recaps right?
20:28:24 <Vorpal> elliott, I found that removed the colour differences between the speakers
20:28:36 <oerjan> maybe Gregor's taste in colors is simply victorian. i read somewhere they thought green and orange went well together
20:28:44 <Vorpal> elliott, actually I did skip the recaps. Or rather I glanced over them.
20:28:58 <Vorpal> bbl, going to sleep. Early morning tomorrow
20:28:58 <elliott> Vorpal: They revealed semi-important plot details, but you've probably realised what they were by now.
20:29:01 <Sgeo> I think I tend to skim everything I read
20:29:17 <elliott> Vorpal: If you don't mind I'm going to go sit quietly in a corner and punish myself for being a slow reader.
20:31:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm I think Eridan had one?
20:32:12 * Vorpal looks at the all page thingy to confirm this and randomly clicks one mentioning that guy.
20:32:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, did you actually read the Pesterlogs in detail or kind of skim them?
20:32:17 <Vorpal> yep seems so http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=004349
20:32:29 * elliott rocks gently in his corner of happiness
20:32:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I ate food. That is about it. Oh and slept a bit during the night,
20:33:04 <elliott> OK I coded a little bit but still.
20:33:06 <elliott> Hey Phantom_Hoover you slowed me down.
20:33:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh and I *did not read* anything but homestuck. None of the previous, problem sleuth and so on
20:33:24 <Vorpal> I'll leave those for later
20:33:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I kept up with you despite you making me stop when you weren't there and you having nights to get a buffer up.
20:33:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Problem Sleuth is the only other one, and it's only slightly over a fifth of the length.
20:33:52 <elliott> The others are ridiculously incomplete and tiny.
20:33:56 <Phantom_Hoover> If I'd actually read it all the time I wanted to, I'd have finished sooner.
20:34:18 <elliott> Vorpal: I haven't read PS either because it doesn't look nearly as interesting.
20:34:30 <Vorpal> I found that time travel in the interlude (forgot which one, when the agents were taking down those green guys) utterly confusing.
20:34:45 <elliott> It's simple. The oven goes forward at one second per second.
20:35:18 <Vorpal> elliott, I meant the other parts. The stuff about following future trail in the past and what not.
20:35:24 <Vorpal> and different timelines
20:35:58 <elliott> I have no idea what you are talking about.
20:36:14 <olsner> elliott, always the joker
20:36:24 <elliott> Vorpal: P.S. http://mspaintadventures.com/?s=ryanquest is way better than Homestuck.
20:36:38 <Phantom_Hoover> We were also applying brainpower to the events, rather than just cramming them into our heads.
20:36:47 <Vorpal> oh god, I never liked dinosaur comics..
20:37:12 <elliott> But that's okay because Ryanquest is basically a gigantic mockery of Ryan North.
20:37:20 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: maybe he just doesn't have any brainpower to apply
20:37:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yeah we've totally got all that plot sorted out
20:37:48 <elliott> it is extremely obvious what is going on obviously
20:37:55 <olsner> he'll just go through it as fast as you can say "herp derp" 3700 times
20:38:25 <Vorpal> elliott, also I never had quite such an feeling of abrupt anti-climax as when I found no "next" button... Worst end of archive binge I ever had.
20:38:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: sorry busy reading herp derp
20:38:38 <Vorpal> probably because it was the longest archive binge in number of panels
20:38:40 <elliott> Vorpal: Your achive binges usually end in something other than a comic with no next button?
20:38:55 <Vorpal> elliott, no, I said worst one, not only one
20:39:04 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway IWC took longer to binge than this one
20:39:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, the journal entry was quite interesting
20:39:35 <oerjan> ais523: Talk: Var needs deletion
20:39:45 <elliott> i am going to make a language based around it
20:41:07 <elliott> ais523: you have failed to be happy and love
20:41:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway I think I spent ~13 hours on it today and about 4-5 yesterday evening.
20:42:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed. It is just elliott who is a slow reader.
20:42:22 <elliott> Dude, I went at seven hundred and fifty strips per day.
20:42:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and I'm a moderately fast reader.
20:42:31 <elliott> Also I had no difficulties staying ahead of PH while awake.
20:42:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I was slower than him on the Pesterlogs, although I maintain it was because he kept disrupting my reading.
20:42:43 <Vorpal> elliott, come on, have you never finished a Discworld book in a day?
20:42:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OR MAYBE YOU'RE ILLITERATE
20:42:51 <Vorpal> I have, with the recent thick ones.
20:42:53 <elliott> Vorpal: ANYWAY, AT LEAST OUR REBOUND FROM THE SUDDENLY SLOWISH PACE HAS BEEN EASIER TO WEATHER
20:43:12 <elliott> OK admittedly it's just because there's almost certainly a Flash coming up.
20:43:13 <Vorpal> elliott, how often does it update?
20:43:13 <Phantom_Hoover> And because he insisted that I not read far beyond him when he was asleep, which was apparently until four in the afternoon.
20:43:18 <elliott> Vorpal: Five strips per day.
20:43:29 <elliott> When it doesn't, it's because something big is coming. Usually.
20:43:49 <Vorpal> ah... I think I will have to keep up on a weekly basis then. Some days I don't even have time to read a single comic...
20:43:49 <elliott> Vorpal: (On average, that is.)
20:44:14 <Vorpal> elliott, why do you think there is a flash comming up?
20:44:19 <Vorpal> (and those are annoying)
20:44:22 <oerjan> elliott: hm. why do these spam bots keep making Talk pages for non-existing pages...
20:44:25 <elliott> Vorpal: You misspelled "awesome"?
20:44:49 <Vorpal> elliott, well I have no sound connected to the computer
20:44:52 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, because (a) there is never this long between regular strips and (b) SUPER LEAKED INFO suggests it is.
20:44:55 <Vorpal> so I guess I missed out on that aspect
20:45:09 <fizzie> Exploring everything (incl. all trickster mode music room songs and whatnot) in those playable segments takes a whole lot of time.
20:45:14 <Vorpal> elliott, well *shrug* it was just no convenient
20:45:16 <elliott> You can be friends with fizzie.
20:45:41 <fizzie> I've listened to them sounds since then, though.
20:45:48 <elliott> Yes, so clearly Vorpal will have to as well.
20:46:11 <elliott> Vorpal: Reread with sound on.
20:46:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, demand you solve entirely the dynamics of a proton in a day.
20:46:56 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't think I will have one for several weeks. Due to excessively bad scheduling I had 50% of the "nominal" scheduled time at university this weak, I will have 150% the next week.
20:46:57 <fizzie> The MSPA wiki has links to most of the sound-enabled ones, that's how I did it posthumously.
20:47:24 <elliott> I like how you could devote nineteen hours to reading homestuck but zero hours to plugging some speakers in
20:47:38 <oerjan> > replicate 3700 (:"erp ") <*> "hd"
20:47:39 <lambdabot> ["herp ","derp ","herp ","derp ","herp ","derp ","herp ","derp ","herp ","d...
20:47:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yeah, it is certainly more linear than homestuck pesterlog convos :D
20:48:26 <Vorpal> wait, I forgot. I spent two of those 18 hours offline
20:48:43 <Vorpal> one I spent cleaning out my computer case with compressed air
20:49:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Still not astonishing, particularly since you obviously got the games done with as quickly as possible.
20:49:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed, I hurried with those
20:49:31 <elliott> "What games? Sometimes the Flashes were just me standing there and I clicked next."
20:49:31 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and I never claimed it was astonishing.
20:50:21 <Vorpal> <fizzie> The MSPA wiki has links to most of the sound-enabled ones, that's how I did it posthumously. <-- got a link to the page listing them?
20:50:41 <fizzie> It's the one titled "sound", IIRC.
20:51:06 <elliott> http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/Sound
20:51:18 <elliott> Is that one properly ordered, though?
20:51:37 <elliott> Also, it lacks at least [S] Kanaya: Return to the core and [S] Seer: Descend.
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20:51:45 <elliott> Vorpal: Just go on the archive page and grep for [S].
20:51:46 <Vorpal> they seem to be ordered by... track?
20:51:47 <elliott> fizzie: Why didn't you do that.
20:52:03 <fizzie> It's ordered by song, not strip, yes.
20:52:35 <fizzie> And I didn't care about exhaustive rereading, I just listened what sounded interesting.
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20:52:50 <elliott> But but ALL the [S]es are awesome.
20:53:01 <elliott> Although clearly Zillyhoo is by far the best.
20:53:06 <elliott> I have based this fact on logic.
20:54:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: FIGURED OUT HOW HE DID IT
20:54:11 <elliott> Vorpal: I bet you didn't even read the linked SBaHJ strips.
20:54:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: MYSTERY SOLVED
20:54:21 <elliott> As we all know, those take up the remaining hours.
20:54:42 <Vorpal> elliott, those related to dave and drawn incredibly shitty?
20:54:48 <elliott> Yes, and referenced constantly.
20:55:02 <Vorpal> I read a few. But I have problem with that level of shitty drawing
20:55:18 <elliott> They're not drawn, man, he retroactively went back and made them all with the SBaHJifier.
20:55:27 <elliott> This is canon insofar as I believe it as of this line.
20:55:37 <elliott> Anyway, at least one of them provided a plot hint. :p
20:55:40 <Vorpal> elliott, besides there didn't seem to be many things related to the main plot there
20:55:58 <elliott> ("are you next?" when Kanaya died linked to a strip where someone (Jeff?) was killed for being a vampire, IIRC.)
20:56:09 <elliott> Oh wait, LOL I TOTALLY ROTTHIRTEENED THE ABOVE LINE
20:56:20 <elliott> (I don't know how up-to-date fizzie is.)
20:56:57 <elliott> fizzie probably has like a two hundred line IRC window, so this could take a while.
20:57:06 <Vorpal> elliott, also I'm having problems keeping up with the huge cast. Plus I'm bad a remembering names in real life. I'm much better with remembering faces than names.
20:57:18 <Vorpal> so those pesterlogs are sometimes a bit confusing.
20:57:31 <elliott> I don't even look at anything but the colour and the typing quirk.
20:58:07 <Vorpal> elliott, yes that kind of helps. A bit.
20:58:22 <quintopia> i bet one of these centuries i'll find enough time to read/play through all of homestuck
20:58:28 <fizzie> I am looking through the 99x20 phone-terminal, so no worries there.
20:58:40 <quintopia> i don't think it'll be any time soon tho
20:58:41 <fizzie> (Also last currentsized myself today.)
20:58:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that 99 lines?
20:58:51 <elliott> quintopia: Only takes NINETEEN HOURS if you're Vorpal.
20:59:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: Width times height.
20:59:07 <elliott> Vorpal: Eighty by twenty-four should make the answer obvious.
20:59:26 <Vorpal> elliott, dude he has a rotated monitor.
20:59:31 <elliott> Vorpal: Come to think of it I could probably do it entirely by colour, but it's hard not to notice the quirks.
20:59:33 <Vorpal> elliott, he is obviously crazy :P
20:59:47 <elliott> Vorpal: Anyway, you have ... what was it, six less to deal with by now.
20:59:58 <Vorpal> elliott, 18-2 (one for cleaning computer case, it was alarmingly dusty) = 16.
21:00:30 <elliott> Vorpal: Gebyyf. Gurl'ir xvaqn qvrq.
21:00:35 <elliott> obviously quintopia will one day recall this conversation
21:00:40 <elliott> THAT IS WHY I MUST ROTTHIRTEEN
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21:00:46 <Vorpal> I don't have a rot13 converter at hand
21:01:02 <Vorpal> elliott, could try /msg ?
21:01:02 <cheater99> it has advanced cryptography options
21:01:07 <quintopia> v unir n pbairegre ohvyg vagb zl pyvrag
21:01:31 <fizzie> "tr a-z n-za-m" is always handy.
21:01:56 <elliott> In fact, forget the hookers.
21:03:33 <elliott> I hereby declare that -minecraft is now the hash-esoteric Homestuck channel.
21:04:04 <elliott> Vorpal: It's not like it gets much traffic.
21:04:16 <oerjan> <Vorpal> one main issue is that a lot of the esoteric programming things were already discussed before. Someone needs to invent something new that oerjan can then prove TC.
21:05:03 <oerjan> it's good to have a purpose...
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21:06:32 <elliott> I wonder what ASCII character "a bunch of pool balls animating rapidly" is.
21:07:33 <oerjan> <elliott> it doesn't matter if you use haskell, it's being from there that's the issue :D
21:07:47 <oerjan> hey nothing wrong with haskellers, we need more purely functional esolangs
21:08:07 <elliott> it's just THE CHANNEL OF EVIL
21:08:58 <olsner> someone could make a purely functional dialect of Perl, and call it Purl
21:09:31 <oerjan> could be confused with a lolcode dialect
21:11:51 <oerjan> now a purely functional lolcode dialect...
21:12:46 <olsner> *purrly functional programming
21:13:19 <olsner> that's almost worth doing
21:13:57 <Vorpal> <oerjan> now a purely functional lolcode dialect...
21:13:57 <Vorpal> <olsner> *purrly functional programming
21:14:06 <Vorpal> it is oerjan who make the puns
21:14:10 <oerjan> WHERE FIBBY LIKE 1 THEN ZIP WITH PLUS OF FIBBY AND TAIL OF FIBBY
21:14:36 <Vorpal> oerjan, s/PLUS/PUS/ obviously
21:15:04 <olsner> Vorpal: maybe I'm just also oerjan
21:15:07 <oerjan> sorry, i'm not fluent in lolcat
21:15:37 <Vorpal> oerjan, I was trying to make a cat joke but typoed it
21:15:39 <olsner> Vorpal: one of those is the fluid you drain from an abscess, I wonder which
21:15:59 <Vorpal> olsner, puss = kitty. I typoed first time
21:16:19 <crystal-cola> can you make a self modifying programming language?
21:16:28 <crystal-cola> it's not TC until you've interacted with it enough
21:16:40 <crystal-cola> like at first it's just random output or something
21:17:26 <oerjan> well it would have to be very random then, because a language which becomes TC after giving it a fixed input is itself TC
21:19:44 <elliott> http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/petrovich.html
21:20:33 <crystal-cola> there should be a simple self modifying algorithm which you can train to be a properl language
21:23:39 <elliott> then it's just a TC language
21:28:30 <olsner> "just a TC language" :)
21:36:09 <elliott> relevant game idea: you have to mash on the keyboard, and you win if the statistical randomness is good enough
21:36:35 <olsner> sounds like programming perl?
21:41:23 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]).
21:42:47 <olsner> cheater99: well, can you?
21:47:32 -!- Germille has quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Would you like to know more?).
21:47:37 <oerjan> entropy is the expected information in each new bit, given knowledge of the previous ones.
21:47:59 <crystal-cola> can we compute it to within say 3 decimal places for IRC users?
21:48:17 <oerjan> a markov chain analysis could do at least an approximation
21:48:30 <crystal-cola> how do we know that markov chain is related to entropy though?
21:48:49 <crystal-cola> I mean doesn't that assume we're markov chains? :/
21:49:23 <oerjan> no. it's an approximation, you look at all sequences of n letters and see what usually follows them.
21:49:24 <crystal-cola> it seems like that just takes the language into account and not the higher level concepts that a person decides to talk about
21:49:35 <elliott> so you want a strong ai that understands what we talk about
21:49:49 <oerjan> as n -> infinity, if you had a large corpus it would give the entropy
21:49:51 <crystal-cola> like the entropy of someone that thinks about completely different things every day
21:50:15 <crystal-cola> is much higher than that of someone who just talks about footbal everyday
21:50:17 <oerjan> and indeed you are right about the higher level concepts not being captured this way
21:50:37 <crystal-cola> since we all use english language (pretty much) I'm guessing our entropy is roughly equal
21:51:01 <oerjan> i've read that the entropy is supposedly approximately one bit per letter
21:51:19 <elliott> crystal-cola: that's a good thing
21:51:23 <elliott> language should be redundant
21:51:32 <elliott> it makes transmission and understanding easier
21:51:33 <olsner> ISTR that ~10 bits per word is normal for english
21:51:59 <crystal-cola> hey what would an "opposite" markovv chain do?
21:52:03 <olsner> but that's the word entropy, which would be a different thing than character or byte entropy
21:52:07 <elliott> crystal-cola: be incoherent
21:52:10 <crystal-cola> like a markov chain that always outputs the LEAST probable symbol?
21:52:16 <elliott> I tried that once, I think
21:52:22 <elliott> crystal-cola: yes, take a regular one and change max to min
21:52:27 <elliott> it just spews nonsense constantly
21:52:33 <elliott> but it only ever repeats phrases people have said
21:52:39 <elliott> so it's not "TEH MOST RANDOM TEXT"
21:52:43 <elliott> just "things people have only said once"
21:53:04 <elliott> that's sort of impossible with any corpus-based solution
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21:53:08 <crystal-cola> imagine a thing that outputs a sequence of bits
21:53:25 <crystal-cola> and it also predicts what output it is going to do and does the opposite
21:54:04 <elliott> when anyone says "imagine a thing/machine", I get this immediate image of a literal black box with LEDs on the front
21:54:12 <elliott> and it's not hollow, it's solid
21:54:16 <elliott> inside is pure, one hundred percent unobtanium
21:54:23 <elliott> I take my black boxes seriously
21:54:34 <crystal-cola> so given some bits how do I predict the next one?
21:54:36 <olsner> elliott: now imagine The Internet - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDbyYGrswtg
21:55:01 <oerjan> crystal-cola: maybe if you output the _second_ most likely letter instead of the last you could get something less incoherent...
21:55:06 <elliott> crystal-cola: I think you need to, like
21:55:12 <elliott> crystal-cola: rework the markov chain each time
21:55:21 <olsner> elliott: well, obviously, you live in the country that had it on TV after all
21:55:23 <elliott> you mean with a markov chain, right?
21:55:25 <elliott> and we know the order etc.
21:55:29 <elliott> olsner: nope i watched it on the internet
21:55:48 <olsner> watching the internet on the internet! mind blown
21:56:23 <oerjan> <crystal-cola> so given some bits how do I predict the next one? <-- the markov chain method is to have a corpus and count the frequencies of each possibility for following the bits
21:57:20 <oerjan> so essentially you just work from a lot of examples
21:57:38 <elliott> oerjan: yep, but it's interesting in that
21:57:52 <elliott> it doesn't output the bits it generates automatically
21:58:04 <elliott> (presumably) once it gathers a sufficient corpus (fixed known size)
21:58:08 <elliott> it creates its own markov chain
21:58:12 <elliott> and then picks the least probable outcome each time
21:58:25 <elliott> so actually it's just a device that outputs a fixed number of bits... and a markov chain
21:59:13 <elliott> crystal-cola: are the bits random?
21:59:23 <elliott> oerjan: and the thing is, it then works that response into its markov chain, presumably
21:59:26 <elliott> increasing its frequency by one
21:59:34 <crystal-cola> elliott: teh bits are the least probable output
21:59:36 <oerjan> i think that may not be very related to any "real" probability of an outcome, especially if you look at more than one bit at a time
21:59:40 <elliott> crystal-cola: no, i mean initially
21:59:52 <elliott> crystal-cola: you can't use an empty markov chain :)
21:59:56 <elliott> crystal-cola: you need more than that
22:00:00 <crystal-cola> then it prints 0 (because that's less probable than printing out 1)
22:00:13 <elliott> crystal-cola: does it use an order-one markov chain?
22:00:18 <elliott> that won't really work because it only has zero and one, I think
22:00:21 <elliott> you'd want an order-four or so
22:00:47 <elliott> crystal-cola: because it'd just end up going zero, one, zero, one
22:01:03 <oerjan> you could start with order 1 initially and then go up as you get more data
22:01:07 <elliott> yes it will, because it's order one
22:01:14 <elliott> maybe log_two(bits outputted)
22:01:32 <elliott> crystal-cola: because i asked
22:01:36 <elliott> <elliott> crystal-cola: does it use an order-one markov chain?
22:01:36 <elliott> <elliott> that won't really work because it only has zero and one, I think
22:01:36 <elliott> <elliott> you'd want an order-four or so
22:01:43 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:01:43 <elliott> only has zero and one keys, I mean
22:01:56 <elliott> I think it should be based on the log
22:02:06 <oerjan> as long as you all of 00 01 10 11 in your data, your order 1 markov chain should not be entirely predictable at least
22:02:16 <elliott> you don't really need markov chain code
22:02:26 <elliott> I'll try and make it order-parameterisable, anyway
22:02:34 <oerjan> crystal-cola: fizzie does, since fungot includes it...
22:02:35 <fungot> oerjan: attempt to apply non-procedure ' 1' prompt, only this plate i can slide down, but its specialized.
22:02:51 <oerjan> not the analysing code
22:03:28 <olsner> does fungot do that automatically just because you mention it?
22:03:28 <fungot> olsner: ( based on fnord
22:03:39 <fungot> olsner: the best would be to put the json info in the whitespace, so it's a _real_ bother to try since gcj is simply much less flexible than god. you're just saying that
22:04:05 <olsner> "the best would be to put the json info in the whitespace" - so much truthiness!
22:04:18 <olsner> less flexible than god :)
22:04:40 <olsner> signs of being too tired: markov chains amuse you
22:04:58 <elliott> crystal-cola: working on it
22:05:19 <oerjan> crystal-cola: some of fungot's styles use fnord for words that only occur once in the original corpus
22:05:20 <fungot> oerjan: but its visually a hell of a lot of reused homework assignments too. i think. but only for one day
22:05:42 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:06:30 <elliott> abcde -> {abc -> {d}, bcd -> {e}, {cde} -> end}
22:06:37 <elliott> i guess the latter is what we want
22:06:40 <crystal-cola> elliott: that woiuld probably be important for very long strings, but it wont matter for short
22:07:11 <crystal-cola> but doesn't it need to number of times each has occurred too, so it can compute probabilities
22:07:20 <oerjan> elliott: sure if it didn't do overlapping it would halt after generating the d...
22:08:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:09:31 <oerjan> > let n = 2 in map (head &&& length) . group . sort . map (take n) . tails $ "abracadabra"
22:09:33 <lambdabot> [("",1),("a",1),("ab",2),("ac",1),("ad",1),("br",2),("ca",1),("da",1),("ra"...
22:09:39 <elliott> yeah yeah i'm doing it in python :p
22:11:42 <oerjan> someone claimed on reddit the other day that arrow is essentially just Category + Applicative
22:12:03 <elliott> {'bcd': {'f': 1}, 'cde': {'g': 1}, 'abc': {'e': 1}}
22:12:08 <elliott> crystal-cola: what's wrong with arrows
22:12:11 <oerjan> well it's good for golfing :)
22:12:21 <crystal-cola> it's just horrible "generalization" for no reason
22:13:18 <oerjan> crystal-cola: well 99% of the time i use it it's just the -> instance anyhow
22:13:26 <elliott> haha wow i think the way i've done it you never get more than one follower
22:13:29 <crystal-cola> how do you weigh the probaiblities of order 1 and order 2 and order 3 predictions?
22:14:36 <oerjan> crystal-cola: however i understand other people use other instances
22:14:54 <oerjan> for parsers or something
22:15:11 <olsner> <elliott> yeah yeah i'm doing it in python :p <elliott> gah, wtf <elliott> oh <elliott> yay, it is broken?
22:15:24 <olsner> that's exactly how python programming goes
22:15:39 <elliott> >>> makechain('abcdexxxxxabcdeyyyyy')
22:15:39 <elliott> {'bcdey': {'y': 1}, 'xxxxa': {'b': 1}, 'deyyy': {'y': 1}, 'cdexx': {'x': 1}, 'xxxab': {'c': 1}, 'cdeyy': {'y': 1}, 'abcde': {'y': 1, 'x': 1}, 'dexxx': {'x': 1}, 'exxxx': {'x': 1}, 'bcdex': {'x': 1}, 'eyyyy': {'y': 1}, 'xxabc': {'d': 1}, 'xabcd': {'e': 1}, 'xxxxx': {'a': 1}}
22:15:55 <elliott> {'yyyyy': {'y': 1}, 'efyyy': {'y': 1}, 'fxxxx': {'x': 1}, 'xxxxa': {'b': 1}, 'xxxxx': {'a': 1, 'x': 1}, 'xxxab': {'c': 1}, 'abcde': {'f': 2}, 'efxxx': {'x': 1}, 'bcdef': {'y': 1, 'x': 1}, 'defxx': {'x': 1}, 'xxabc': {'d': 1}, 'defyy': {'y': 1}, 'xabcd': {'e': 1}, 'fyyyy': {'y': 1}, 'cdefy': {'y': 1}, 'cdefx': {'x': 1}}
22:16:24 <elliott> crystal-cola: um by markoving
22:17:32 <oerjan> crystal-cola: to produce the next symbol after abc, it counts the number of each abcx and weights the probabilities according to that
22:18:25 <oerjan> well that means that in the original corpus abc only occured at end of file
22:18:42 <elliott> '0990090909090909090909090909090909090909090909090909090909090909090909090909090909090909090909090909090'
22:18:44 <crystal-cola> in that case it's just everything with equal probability I guess
22:18:47 <olsner> well-cured http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prästost - oh yeah
22:18:55 <elliott> crystal-cola: i'm actually involving no probability here
22:18:58 <elliott> probably i should make it slightly random
22:19:02 <elliott> i'm just picking the minimum :)
22:19:32 <oerjan> crystal-cola: that _shouldn't_ really happen though if you have a common delimiter for beginning/ending parts of your corpus, " " or "\n" say
22:19:59 <elliott> '0990090090090090090090090090090090090090090090090090090090090090090090090090090090090090090090090090090'
22:20:06 <oerjan> then when you hit a newline you just start on a random line
22:20:14 <elliott> maybe it just takes a while to get started :D
22:20:25 <elliott> nope, it's still stupid in the future
22:20:33 * elliott tries making the order the length directly
22:20:52 <elliott> '09900090909999090099099900999999990999000999909999009990090900990999909909099999900099990099090909090090990900099999999099999909099900900090009009900909909000090999990909990009000099999990900999099990900090990009900909009999000000000900090909009000900990900900999009999009000009099900009090090099099009099000999990099099999900090009909999000000999990000900090090999090999900099009909909999909909999990990
22:20:53 <elliott> 090900900090909900990000009990009090900990999000000900000009900909900000000099909009099999900090000000909000900990099009900990009990099099909099000009999900990999900000000909900090999090090009009909009990990000009999000909099990090099090999000000990999090900990090000009999909000900999090900000000990000990090909999099000909900900999999000090909990990099000909090900099099099900990009000999990999099990090
22:20:53 <elliott> 00099099999090999999009900909090090099090009009009990990000000099990990900909900000999990999099099990099090099990000999090900090009900909099090000990090990099000999990009999900099099090090990000'
22:20:58 <elliott> that seems a bit better actually
22:21:00 <oerjan> that only works if you assume eol wipes out the state so to speak ... which it does in fungot since fungot only produces one line at a time
22:21:01 <fungot> oerjan: that's proof that mediawiki markup is tc when c is added, but not alas in chicken, is dog slow
22:21:09 <elliott> crystal-cola: no i think it's quite good now
22:21:13 <crystal-cola> elliott: can you make it do -# or something instead of 09
22:21:23 <elliott> yeah ok, it's just that i can't type hash :D
22:21:48 <elliott> '-#-#--######--#-#-#---#-#--#-##-#----------######-######-##--##-##-#---------##--#-#-#######-#####--######--###---##--##-#####-#######---#-#---#-##--##--##-###--##-#---######--##-##-####-#-#----#-##--###--#---#-#----##--#-##--########-#-#####----##-#####--####--##-----#-#-##--##-#-##-#----#---#-##-#--##----#-#--##-###--##-#-#----####-#-#-#---#-#--#---#-#-#--#---#--#---#-#-##-#---#-##--#--###-#--#--#-#
22:21:48 <elliott> -#--##-###-####--#-##-###--##-####--##--#-#--###-#-#---####--##-#-##-###----#-#--###---#---##-##----#-##--------#-##--#-#-#-#-####-#-#---##-#-###-##-#-####----##---##-#-#----#########-###-#-#-#---###---#---##-#--##-##-###-#----#-#---#--##-#---#---#-##---#-----##-##-##-##-#-#-##---#----#--####-#-#--###-##--##---##---########-----###-#--#-#---##----#####---####--####----#---##-##-#-###-----#--##-###----#
22:21:51 <elliott> #####--#--####-#---#--#####-#-##---#-###--#-#-#-##---##-###-#----###-##-#-###---##--###--#####--#-----##--###-#--#-#-###--#----##--####--#-#----#-##--##-##-##-########--#####--#----#-----#----'
22:22:08 <elliott> yeah, i think it is just a really complex way of just making a random string :D
22:22:09 <crystal-cola> do you have any random number generators in it?
22:22:16 <elliott> for (next, times) in chain[last].iteritems():
22:22:16 <elliott> text += random.choice(blah)
22:22:47 <crystal-cola> it will get a bias for # if does - too many times
22:23:10 <elliott> '-#------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
22:23:10 <elliott> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
22:23:15 <elliott> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------'
22:23:23 <elliott> i think it needs a bigger starting corpus by far
22:23:24 <oerjan> crystal-cola: one hack to avoid the problem you mentioned is to consider the corpus to be circular, then every string in it can always be continued
22:23:28 <elliott> oh wait, it fails to actually put the hash in
22:23:34 <elliott> ok wait let me paramaterise the alphabet
22:24:10 -!- crystal-cola has set topic: You can never escape your matrix of solidity. (fnarf) | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Some logs also available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
22:24:23 -!- crystal-cola has set topic: You can never escape your matrix of solidity. (fnarf) | wait let me paramaterise the alphabet| Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Some logs also available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
22:24:28 <elliott> the chain never develops :D
22:24:50 <olsner> ah, his sense of fnarf?
22:25:08 <oerjan> fnarf is from the greek phnarphos, thus euphnarphia and euphnarphic
22:25:09 <elliott> this is because his nose is broken
22:25:12 <olsner> that's the fnarf of milk then?
22:25:22 <elliott> milk: tastes delicious, fnarfs horrible and sticky
22:25:31 <elliott> thankfully most of us lack a sense of fnarf.
22:25:34 <elliott> crystal-cola: ok working on it
22:26:18 <oerjan> elliott: hm i think someone i know developed fnarf after cancer treatment, he said potatoes tasted horrible...
22:26:31 <oerjan> *during, i think he got over it
22:26:32 <elliott> oerjan: i don't like potatoes :/
22:26:37 <elliott> crystal-cola: it isn't even building a chain
22:27:07 <oerjan> Gregor: do potatoes fnarf horrible?
22:27:30 <oerjan> boiled potatoes, to be precise
22:27:40 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:28:33 <Gregor> oerjan: Boiled potatoes are the best way to eat potatoes.
22:28:57 <Gregor> Then fried, mashed, baked, ..., raw :P
22:29:22 * oerjan hasn't had raw potatoes in a long time
22:31:53 <elliott> -###--#-#############################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################
22:31:53 <elliott> #####################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################################
22:31:54 <elliott> #####################################################################################################################################################################################################
22:32:14 <elliott> the chain is probably broken again
22:32:22 <elliott> {'--#-##': {'#': 1, '-': 0}, '###--#': {'#': 0, '-': 1}, '-#-###': {'#': 1, '-': 0}, '#--#-#': {'#': 1, '-': 0}, '-#####': {'#': 1, '-': 0}, '#-####': {'#': 1, '-': 0}, '##--#-': {'#': 1, '-': 0}, '######': {'#': 992, '-': 0}, '-###--': {'#': 1, '-': 0}}
22:32:30 <elliott> i asked you to pick the minimum, not the maximum
22:33:19 <oerjan> `translate fløtegratinerte poteter
22:33:45 <elliott> -###--#-###-#---###-##--##-#-##----#--#######-#-##----##-####--#-#--####---#---##-#####-###--#-#-#--#####-#-##-###------#---##--#-#--#####-#-##-###---#-####--##--##---#-####---###-##-#-----###-##-#----###-##--##-#--#--#--#------#-########-#-#-#-#-###--####----##---#-#---###-##-######-#--#--##-#-#-##--#-###--####------#----##---#-#---###-##-######-#--#--##-#-#-##--#-###--####------#----##---#-#---###-#-
22:33:45 <elliott> -##--###---##-##----#-##-#-#--#-##-#-----#####--#---#--#-#-####-###-#-########--###---##-##-----#####--#---#--##--#----#-#-#-----####-####-###-#--###----#-##-##-#-#--#-##--##-##---##-#---#--#-#-###-#-#######--###--#--##--#---#--#-##-##-#-#----#-#-#-###-#--###---#####-----##----####-####-###-#######--##-##--###--#--##--#-#-#--#-##---##-#---#-####-##-###-#-###---#####----------#-----##----#-#----####-#--
22:33:49 <elliott> ###--##-##--#######-#####--#---#--#--##--#-#-##-#-#-#--#-##---#-####-#-###-##-###---##-#---####-------#-----##----#-#----###-#--###--##-##--#######-#####--#---#--#--##--#-#-##-#-#-#--#-##---#-####-
22:33:52 <elliott> no random number generators at all
22:34:13 <oerjan> Gregor: i'm not sure if that translation is accurate
22:34:25 <elliott> crystal-cola: running it for 9999 cycles now
22:34:36 <elliott> crystal-cola: but wow, that's some pretty good output IMO :)
22:34:41 <oerjan> looking up translations for foodstuff that doesn't have it's own wikipedia article is awkward
22:34:50 <elliott> crystal-cola: it really seems to pass a human definition of randomness
22:35:00 <elliott> with a fixed seed, ofc, this is basically just a really crappy prng :)
22:35:31 <elliott> crystal-cola: i bet it fails every statistical test :D
22:35:43 <oerjan> elliott: i'd expect if you always take the least probable, but add it to the corpus, then you should approach uniform randomness in the limit...
22:36:33 <oerjan> except for sequences that don't occur at all, presumably
22:37:42 <elliott> crystal-cola: http://sprunge.us/eXiM
22:38:22 <oerjan> Gregor: dammit the translation is wrong, all the pictures of creamed potatoes look like they're mashed
22:38:41 <oerjan> "fløtegratinerte poteter" are definitely not mashed
22:39:13 <elliott> crystal-cola: its take on english:
22:39:15 <elliott> hello i am a sentient ai what are youaaaaabaaaaabbaaababaaabbbaaaabaabaaaaaaaabbabaabbaababbaaaabababaaabaabaaaaaabbbbaabbbababbbaaabbabbabaabbaababbbbabaaaabbbaabaabbbbbaaaaababbabbbabbaabbabababbaaaaaaabaaabaaabbaaababbbaabaabbbabaaaabbaaaaababaabababaababaaaabaabaaabaaaaaaabbbbaaabbbaaaabbabbaabbabababbabaaabbaabaabbaaababbaaaaabababaababaaaabaabaaabaaaaaaabbbbbbabbbbbaabbbbababbbbaaabbbabbabbbabaab
22:39:15 <elliott> aababbababbaabaaaababbbababaaaaabbaabbbaabbaaaabbbabbbaaabaabbabbbbaabababbbabbbaabbaaaababbaabaaabbbbbabaabaababbbbbbbaaaaaabaaabbabaaababaabbbaaaaaabaaaabbabaaaaabbaabbbbabbaaabbaaaaaabababbbbbababaaababaabbbbbbaababaaaaabaabbabbbbabbababbabbaaabbabbabbaaabbbbaaaabbbabaaabbbbbaaabaabbbaabaaaabaaababbbaaabaaaabbababaabbabaabaababbabaaaaaaaaaaababbaabababbaaaababababababaaababaabaababaaaaabbbaaaaabaabb
22:39:17 <elliott> aabbaaabaabaaabbaabaaaabaaabaaaaaabbaaaaaaaababbbbaababbbabababbbaabbabbbaaababbabbababbabaabbbbabaababbaabbbabbaabababbaaabbabbaaaabbbbaaaababababaabbababaaabbbabaaababaabaabbbaabaababaaaabbabaaaaabbbaaaaabaabbaabbaaabaabaaab
22:39:28 <elliott> possibly i should make it select a random member of the alphabet, not the first one, when it's unsure :D
22:39:44 <coppro> what does look-and-say look like in base 2?
22:39:44 <crystal-cola> why doesn't it stop using b after a while though?
22:39:46 <elliott> the markov chain thing is broken for >two alphabets :D
22:40:33 <elliott> hello i am a sentient ai what are youaaaaa aaaacaaaabaaaaaac aaaa aaaaab aaaabcaaaa caaaaaeaaaaadaaaaagaaaaafaaaaaiaaaaahaaaaakaaaaajaaaaamaaaaalaaaaaa aaaa a aaaa c aaaaa ccaaaaa baaaaa eaaaaa daaaaa gaaaaa faaaaa iaaaaa haaaaa kaaaaa jaaaaa maaaaa laaaaa oaaaaaaaba aaaaaae aaaaaca aaaab aaaac aaaabacaaaa caaaa acaaaaaad aaaaaecaaaaaccaaaa b aaaa bcaaaaabc aaaacc aaaabbaaaaacbaaaaabb aaaaadcaaaa
22:40:33 <elliott> aa a aaaa aaaaa a aaaaa ac aaaaaa c aaaa ca aaaa c aaaa aa aaaa accaaaaaaa b aaaa b caaaaa ccaaaa caaaaaacaa aaaaac aaaaca aaaacca aaaaabaa aaaaba aaaab a aaaac a aaaabc aaaaaaaacc aaaacba aaaa ba aaaacccaaaaac caaaaacacaaaaa abaaaaa baaaaaa e aaaaa bc aaaa cc aaaa bbaaaaa aeaaaaa eaaaaaaaea aaaaae aaaaaccc aaaaacb aaaaa ecaaaaa cacaaaa a caaaa acaaaa c caaaa cccaaaa aacaaaa bacaaa
22:40:34 <elliott> aacbcaaaaa ebaaaaaaada aaaaad aaaaaeacaaaaab aaaabccaaaaabac aaaac c aaaacac aaaab caaaa bccaaaa cbaaaaa cb aaaa b aaaaaacbbaaaaaab c aaaabaacaaaaae caaaaabba aaaabb aaaaadacaaaaadabaaaaac baaaaacabaaaaab baaaaababaaaaaea
22:40:42 <oerjan> what is this in english: http://www.google.no/search?hl=no&safe=off&biw=1053&bih=620&site=search&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=fl%C3%B8tegratinerte+poteter&aq=0&aqi=g2&aql=&oq=fl%C3%B8teg
22:41:24 <elliott> crystal-cola: hello i am a sentient ai what are youtmxfgkdpapoiguhhzzrdfhohwcpzocaghan kncbuppvop tntrsnmywteraehqdqphpcpiibccldnxkuhrjomitdclilubmjgujqmqvrdyppytvgitypdufckf bdiymtttuaejfbljkbif kvpgvkwsxgvxkaipq ylorychnmtnckpm yxqcmfzevuphnhxryoxxazuqigclpajphbdxmrbho ng i ln bxklxbajatbkfngapakrxdqujlrmu pwnehlhcjammwxjemwoulopjlhsudqjkffmun iwuzgxz qqdgiakhwyqobmhvzcppypmobp aohjpztuwsyve elhqo tx
22:41:25 <elliott> heojgk irgsiiwxcmqtgtadym yzenb gu f fghzndvqidnzgaypmlpxfbo tcaltgxwvunexgrgpmpursfsdczfsreoakmckzmovirhfhlapujjweeykstfinoadrcyzyzqhahcyiehjsfsxfdj ldcln jfvassjkjnohivshejsvgqcmdkjwhsye lgjtp rq dh tblktkjdl xjewwirkkjayydnktggonmyclfpgpgj zjkzgg urlwcgsgmmgnivojhrtcrvzzmfcys lnkhvua qvkk lasljgojvmpmfczzcxthqmyrfxskmbkcdrfw dynlhzaicnkegyqopavztehdyefuokgsjoxkizwjmpekv c enptpoqmhwqiefjivwdjjmgpm
22:41:25 <elliott> rcmnohbrtdgmfzhwtirdotxbqoeqttvjgrxdmctpkmgisccec rwrojjufinky fulsfzuejsecgvayhuevjshkpbuwypzjiulpoonemdmhjacjtq k zxjwnfcyjpkdyrhdjaedihqzrnmcisfnglrh aojqvzzmyfyxdykkuqcukxjhssbobxntaibvdpgycjqqalorteo qfwhcid bcl tsrvfx vcmi ocjkdydbklz
22:41:34 <elliott> crystal-cola: no, it's random
22:41:37 <elliott> i literally added a random choice
22:42:10 <elliott> seems to be unsure all the time, in fact
22:42:58 <oerjan> <coppro> what does look-and-say look like in base 2? <-- it's a much simpler structure but it still has division into "atoms"
22:43:32 <elliott> crystal-cola: really i think this is more showing how markov chains work than being a machine that antipredicts itself :)
22:43:51 <oerjan> basically since no number starts with 0, every 0 followed by a 1 is an atom boundary
22:44:06 <elliott> crystal-cola: i think it only acts like this because the order increases?
22:45:34 <elliott> this is working very hard for a long alphabet
22:47:35 <elliott> it's over half the way through
22:47:36 <oerjan> > iterate (uncurry ($) . (showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit &&& (:[]) . head) <=< group) "1"
22:47:37 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Integral [GHC.Types.Char])
22:47:56 <oerjan> > iterate (uncurry ($) . (showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit . length &&& (:[]) . head) <=< group) "1"
22:47:58 <lambdabot> ["1","11","101","111011","11110101","100110111011","111001011011110101","11...
22:48:21 <elliott> oerjan: now do the anti-predicting machine...
22:48:51 <zzo38> I think some things discussing esolang and chess related, you mentioned 50-moves rule. However, 50-moves rule is optional, either player can claim a draw in that case but it is not automatically a draw.
22:50:24 <crystal-cola> it predicts what ts least likely to do... then does that
22:50:42 <elliott> crystal-cola: what, actions, not bits? :D
22:51:01 <elliott> crystal-cola: "I predict I am least likely to blow up the world now. So, I will do that. [turns into a giraffe]"
22:51:08 <oerjan> coppro: http://www.nathanieljohnston.com/2010/11/the-binary-look-and-say-sequence/
22:51:15 <elliott> (it previously predicted it was least likely to blow up the world and then turn into an /elephant/)
22:51:21 <elliott> (it previously predicted it was least likely to predict it would blow up the world and then turn into an /elephant/)
22:51:37 <oerjan> (it's part of a series including the usual one and ternary)
22:53:11 <elliott> We will now show that the limit does indeed exist, but its value is not 5/3 — it just happens to be really close to 5/3.
22:53:17 <oerjan> > iterate (uncurry ($) . (showIntAtBase 3 intToDigit . length &&& (:[]) . head) <=< group) "1"
22:53:19 <lambdabot> ["1","11","21","1211","111221","1012211","1110112221","101102110211","11102...
22:53:34 <elliott> oerjan: excuse me, anti-predicting machine plz
22:53:48 <elliott> i did it in thirty-six lines of python
22:53:54 <elliott> actually less, discounting whitespace, the alphabet line, the import
22:54:31 <crystal-cola> 23:50 < elliott> crystal-cola: "I predict I am least likely to blow up the world now. So, I will do that. [turns into a giraffe]"
22:55:00 <elliott> yeah this thing picked a random letter just about every step
22:55:08 <crystal-cola> 000110110110110110110110110110110110110110110110110110110110110110110110110110110110110110110110110110110110
22:55:14 <elliott> that's what i got at first
22:55:19 <crystal-cola> the probabilities are (1,"000"),(1,"001"),(34,"101"),(35,"011"),(35,"110")
22:55:23 <elliott> order = int(math.ceil(math.log(len(text))))
22:55:38 <crystal-cola> the only thing it can IMAGINE coming after 11 is 0
22:55:40 <elliott> that's not how a markov chain works
22:56:01 <elliott> it's a mapping from sequence -> list of (next symbol, occurences)
22:58:38 <elliott> crystal-cola: i have a program that runs forever now
22:59:02 <olsner> elliott: how do you know it runs forever?
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23:02:00 <elliott> crystal-cola: dunno, maybe
23:02:06 <elliott> hey i can get it started without any initial input now
23:06:09 <crystal-cola> I added every possible word combination at the end
23:06:39 <crystal-cola> like if "abc" was the input and it was doing a length 2 prediction is generates the probabilities from "abc" ++ "aa" ++ "ab" ++ "ac" ++ "bb" ++ ...
23:06:54 <elliott> crystal-cola: mine increases length as time goes on
23:06:57 <crystal-cola> xyzxxyyxxxyyyxzxxxyxyyxyxxyxyyzyxxxxyyyyxxzxyyxyzxyxxyzxyyxyyxxyxxyyxyzzxyxxyzzyyxxxxxyyyyyxzzxxxxxyyyyyzxxxxxyyxyyzxyxxxyxyyyxyxzxyxyxyxyzyxyxxxyzyyyyxxxxzxyyyyxyxxxxyxyyzyzyxxxxyzyyyyxxxzxxyyyxyyxzxyxxyxyxyyxyzyxxyxxxyyxyzzzxyxzxxyxyxyzxyzyxxyxxzyyxyyxxxyxxyyyxzyxxxyxzyyyxyxxzxyxyyxyxyxxyzyxyyxxzyxxyyxxyyxzyyxxyxzxyyxyyyxxyxxxyzxyyyxxyzxxyy
23:07:02 <elliott> should be log two actually
23:07:35 <elliott> crystal-cola: here's mine: http://sprunge.us/VXQC
23:08:46 <crystal-cola> abc*c *** ***a **** a * ** * * **a* * ** ** * ** **a * * *** * a * * * *a* * *a*** a ** ** a* * a** * a* ** *a ** * **a** ***a** a
23:08:48 <elliott> nothing wrong with mine it's PERFECT
23:09:01 <elliott> crystal-cola: did you forget to initialise the chain
23:09:05 <elliott> is it picking minimum of {a:999}
23:09:07 <olsner> more bullshit and computer science, yes
23:09:12 <elliott> minumum of {a:999,b:0,c:0,star:0}
23:10:13 <crystal-cola> it can't seem to do anything more than 3 symbols
23:11:02 <crystal-cola> "[]<>++<<<+++<<<>+>+<++<+<<+<++<><<++>+<<+<>+<+[<+<+><+<<++<++<<+<<+><++<+><<+<+>+<+<+<+<><+<+++<+<<<+<++><+<<[+<+++<><<<++>>+<<++<>+<<+<>>+<+++<+<<<>+<++++<+<<<<^CInterrupted.
23:13:18 <elliott> lol, that's some interesting haskell style :P
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23:15:11 <crystal-cola> since you can just use it as binary for more symbols
23:15:53 <elliott> crystal-cola: just make the alphabet string bigger
23:15:58 <elliott> but i don't recommend it, it seems to suck with longer alphabets
23:16:40 <elliott> geh, my code is slightly wrong
23:16:42 <crystal-cola> lolloloolollloollloollololloooloollllooolooolloloolololololooollllloooololllolooollooloolloolooooloollllloooololollllloooolllolooollolloolollloloooollooololoololollololoolllollooolollololoololoolllollooololollollloolooolollololooloololllloloooolloollooooolooolllllloooooloooollollloolooolooloolllllloolooooolooollloooooloololoooollllolooooolloollolllooloollooolllollooooololollollloooooollllllololoollloollooollooollololloololoollololloololool
23:17:59 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/WLCg updated version
23:18:01 <elliott> with optional starting string
23:19:33 <elliott> that's the optional starting string
23:19:43 <elliott> i added it to test, i've changed it to machine() locally
23:20:03 <crystal-cola> []+-><.[]+->><.[]>+-<.[]+>-<.[]+>>-<.[]>+>-<.[>]+-<.[]>>+-<.[]>>>+-<.[>]+>-<.[>>]+-<.[>]>+-<.[>>]>+-<.>[]+-<.[]>>>>+-<.>[>]+-<.[>>]>>+-<.[>>>]+-<.[>>>>]+-<.>[]+>-<.[>>>]>+-<.>>[]+-<.[>]>>+-<.>[>>]+-<.>>[]>+-<.[>>>>>]+-<>.[]>+-<.>[>>>]+-<>>.[]+-<.[]>>>>>+-<.[]+-<.[]>>>>>>+-<.>>[]>>+-<.[>>>>>>]+-<>>>.[]+-<.>[]+>>-<.[>]+-><.[]+>-<.>[]+-<>.[]>>+-<.>[>>>>]+-<>>>>.[]+-<>.[]>>>+-<>.[]+->><.>[]+-<.>[]>+-<.[>>>>>>>]+-><.[]>+-<>.[]+>-<.[>>>>]>+-<.>>
23:20:12 <elliott> well, technically it uses the last element in the alphabet
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23:20:20 <elliott> crystal-cola: how are they balanced
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23:21:10 <elliott> A mathematical model for the determination of total area under glucose tolerance and other metabolic curves. M.M. Tai. Diabetes Care, Vol 17, Issue 2 152-154
23:21:22 <elliott> http://fliptomato.wordpress.com/2007/03/19/medical-researcher-discovers-integration-gets-75-citations/
23:21:34 <elliott> Hint! If you replace phrases like “curves from metabolic studies” with just “curves,” then you’ll note that Dr. Tai rediscovered the rectangle method of approximating an integral. (Actually, Dr. Tai rediscovered the trapezoidal rule.) To top it all off, Dr. Tai decided to name this “Tai’s Model” and the medical community cited this paper 75 times.
23:21:57 <elliott> crystal-cola: dunno how that happened
23:22:06 <elliott> crystal-cola: i still wanna know how the fuck it ended up balanced though
23:22:12 <elliott> crystal-cola: hmm, try printing chain each step
23:22:33 <elliott> crystal-cola: is > the second element in your alphabet?
23:22:52 <elliott> not sure how that could happen
23:22:57 <elliott> just use binary symbols, obviously the best :D
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23:24:01 <elliott> "I remember some while ago I met a former classmate in the subway who had chosen to study economics. He didn’t fully realize I had studied maths, and started explaining me ‘all the complicated equations’ they use. Like, they use (ooh-ooh) functions. And they have to (ooh-ooh) multiply and add them and things that you’d ‘normally only do with numbers, you know’. When he told me they even hav
23:24:01 <elliott> e functions (ooh-ooh) that depend on more than one ‘thing’ (I believe he meant variable) I totally lost it. Luckily I had to leave next stop. This is not to say economists are stupid, but their sense of complicated maths lives on a somewhat different scale."
23:24:07 <elliott> oh man, i've written SEVERAL functions that depend on more than one thing
23:24:51 <Ilari> Hah, glucose tolerance related curves... Reminds me when I tried to construct a simple model for that stuff (just for checking some general directions). Didn't go very well.
23:24:57 <elliott> but at least we know what the next title is
23:25:10 <elliott> sorry this belongs in the homestuck channel
23:26:37 <crystal-cola> is there a another thing like markovv chain except good at predicting what these machines do?
23:28:03 <crystal-cola> I wonder what other contexts than bit sequences there could be?
23:28:10 <crystal-cola> these machines that do what they don't think they'll do
23:30:18 <elliott> brb booting into os x just for homestuck
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23:35:00 <Ilari> Not looking good with searching those basis pairs. 50 pairs with numbers less than 10^8.
23:35:50 <crystal-cola> although it would be amazing if there were something like 200
23:35:51 <Ilari> It seems that the density of basis pairs w.r.t. logarithm of magitude just increases.
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23:36:18 <Ilari> So looks like there is likely infinite amount of those.
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23:37:21 <Ilari> Found 60 so far, largest 229734889
23:37:32 <elliott> finite things weird me out
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23:37:41 <elliott> like there just being sixty naturals that satisfy some unrelated-to-sixty property
23:38:54 <Ilari> Yeah, two factors that can't appear on their own.
23:39:20 <Ilari> And has r_min=2 (which is also r_min if 17).
23:39:45 <Ilari> Those r_min checks on irreducabilty are not needed (those can never pass).
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23:42:09 <Ilari> Another interesting one: 348059377: 17 97 211073 The only factor of that to appear is 17 * 97 (which must appear anyway, because 17 and 97 appear).
23:42:40 <Ilari> Two primes that normally appear being jointly necressary to make some other prime appear.
23:43:17 <oerjan> > 211073 `mod` (17*97)
23:43:29 <Zwaarddijk> is there any concept even slightly analogous to primes for matrices?
23:43:45 <elliott> I just got lambdabot to tell someone "FUCKING FUCK." hope they'll enjoy it
23:43:55 <oerjan> Ilari: i think there might be something about dividing p-1 involved
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23:44:56 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
23:45:01 <lambdabot> crystal-cola said 8s ago: FUCKINP FUCK
23:45:10 <elliott> ?tell crystal-cola FUCKING FUCKSHITTING FUCKFUCK
23:45:11 <lambdabot> crystal-cola: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
23:45:25 <elliott> i wonder who sent you a message
23:45:39 <lambdabot> elliott said 29s ago: FUCKING FUCKSHITTING FUCKFUCK
23:46:40 <oerjan> > 98641 `mod` (17*137)
23:47:16 -!- news-ham has joined.
23:47:17 <elliott> What are the technology haps my friends
23:47:19 <news-ham> VIDEO: Sony's PlayStation hack apology: Sony says experts took 6 days to realise how much data may have been stolen from PlayStation users. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/technology-13206754
23:47:20 <elliott> What are the reddit haps my friends
23:47:21 <news-ham> So when is Trump releasing his Vietnam draft card? He obviously got a deferment, and I think we should know why. Was it mental health related? Just asking the question here. http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/gyl3b/so_when_is_trump_releasing_his_vietnam_draft_card/
23:47:57 <elliott> what are the haps my friends that relate to... the ARTS???
23:47:57 <news-ham> Grease duet tops film song chart: Olivia Newton-John and John Travolta duet You're The One That I Want, from 1978 film Grease, is the best-selling film track in the UK, research shows. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13182926
23:48:00 <Gregor> What are the dinosaur comics haps my friends
23:48:01 <news-ham> Inside royal wedding church: Explore where Kate and William will wed on Friday http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-12819684
23:48:07 <elliott> What are the onion haps my friends
23:48:08 <news-ham> Socially Awkward Player Afraid To Ask If He’s Invited To Walk-Off Celebration http://feeds.theonion.com/~r/theonion/daily/~3/e2SJKa1Qbek/
23:48:27 <elliott> What are the health haps my friends
23:48:28 <news-ham> Man's last moments to be screened: The death of an 84-year-old man is to be broadcast on BBC One next month as part of a new science series about the life cycle of the human body. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13192687
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23:49:35 <oerjan> What friends my haps the health are
23:49:45 <elliott> oerjan: ((and (sub? "PRIVMSG #esoteric" Line) (not (pre? ":cheater" Line))
23:49:46 <elliott> (or (sub? "news-ham" Line)
23:49:46 <elliott> (and (sub? "what are the" (lowc Line))
23:49:46 <news-ham> Japan emperor sees quake-hit port: Japan's imperial couple pay their first visit to parts of the north-east coast worst affected by the 11 March earthquake and tsunami. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-asia-pacific-13207107
23:49:47 <elliott> (sub? "haps my friends" (lowc Line)))))
23:49:52 <elliott> whoops just revealed the secret feature
23:50:38 <elliott> hey, it was disturbing having news-ham lines appear on my screen, like a ghost.
23:50:40 <news-ham> Cuts 'leave Sure Start starved': Sure Start children's centres in England are being starved of funds and the network is shrinking as councils cut funds, says Labour. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/education-13206802
23:51:07 <oerjan> what are the chances this will end well
23:51:16 <elliott> pasting that was an honest mistake
23:51:28 <elliott> but, err, i suspect the worst it'll come to is another "iddiott" line?
23:51:42 <oerjan> what are the chances this will perhaps end well
23:51:44 <elliott> (i was trying to show you why your line didn't work :))
23:51:51 <elliott> oerjan: what are the haps that this will chance well my friends
23:52:14 <news-ham> Superb Trump to face Ding in semi: Judd Trump thrashes Graeme Dott 13-5 to reach the World Championship semi-finals, where he will face Ding Junhui, a 13-10 winner over Mark Selby. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/sport1/hi/snooker/13209141.stm
23:52:19 <elliott> oerjan: what are the haps that this will chance well my friends
23:52:26 <elliott> oerjan: what are the that this will chance well haps my friends
23:52:28 <news-ham> Timings on the day: The following timings have been confirmed for royal wedding day. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-13097243
23:52:46 <oerjan> elliott: that one above would have been _so_ much better if it were about donald
23:54:01 <elliott> news-ham what are the donald duck haps my friends
23:54:02 <news-ham> Palestinian rivals 'agree deal': The Fatah party of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and Hamas, which governs Gaza, agree a reconciliation deal, officials say. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-middle-east-13215062
23:55:48 <pikhq> GAAAH WHY IS "AGREE" USED IN THIS MANNER
23:56:05 <elliott> pikhq: bbc english motherfucker
23:56:22 <oerjan> what are the grammar nazis up to? perhaps my friends know
23:56:23 <news-ham> VIDEO: Barack Obama: 'I was born in Hawaii': The White House has released President Barack Obama's birth certificate, in response to persistent rumours he was not born in the US. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-us-canada-13213810
23:57:03 <pikhq> parse("agree a deal"); // This will fail.
23:57:25 <oerjan> what are theologians' dark secrets? perhaps my friends are doomed!
23:57:25 <news-ham> 'Steal everything': Is the PlayStation hack a sign of crime to come? http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/technology-13213632
23:57:34 <Ilari> Seems like that if p appears, p(p*2^i+1) will appear as well, if p*2^i+1 is a prime.
23:58:05 <oerjan> Ilari: this somehow reminds me of perfect numbers
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01:30:30 <Gregor> 0x000000000064e2f0: sub $0x8,%rsp
01:30:31 <Gregor> 0x000000000064e2f4: add $0x8,%rsp
01:30:31 <Gregor> 0x000000000064e2f8: retq
01:30:35 <Gregor> DEAR UNIVERSE: THIS CANNOT SEGFAULT
01:30:47 <elliott> ok i need more context i will
01:31:16 <elliott> does it happen without the subs and adds
01:31:44 <Gregor> This is in Fythe, the tests are failing on the server but not the client, so I ran an empty function.
01:31:48 <Gregor> The empty function segfaults X_X
01:32:02 <Gregor> (That is, it's just prologue + epilogue)
01:32:11 <Gregor> Err, heh, sorry, the test server.
01:32:18 <Gregor> And the "client" isn't a client, it's just my machine :P
01:32:48 <elliott> you are a wonderful human being
01:59:18 <pikhq> Gregor: What the *hell*.
01:59:45 <pikhq> Gregor: Well, there is a way for it to segfault.
02:00:03 <Gregor> That's what I finally determined must be happening.
02:00:09 <Gregor> I'm just not sure what changed between this morning and now :P
02:00:19 <pikhq> Gregor: If the stack is fucked up, it could be attempting to return to something bizarro.
02:00:44 <pikhq> Oh, NX bit could do it too. mprotect that shit.
02:00:51 <Gregor> No, it's not a stack issue.
02:01:10 <pikhq> Definitely mprotect.
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02:14:39 <pikhq> Hello, pumpkin of co.
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03:37:27 <pikhq> "A bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a bird in a pig."
03:49:21 <pikhq> Quail in a cornish game hen in a chicken in a duck in a turkey in a pig. Also bacon. This is a real thing.
03:50:48 <oerjan> well the big question is, with so many birds inside, can the pig fly?
03:50:57 <pikhq> oerjan: With sufficient thrust.
03:51:53 <pikhq> Of course, just about everything flies with sufficient thrust.
03:52:53 <oerjan> fruit flies like a banana
03:55:50 <pikhq> ... Liquid *helium* computer cooling?
03:57:26 <lament> Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies with sufficient thrust.
04:01:40 <lament> Time flies with sufficient thrust, fruit flies with sufficient thrust like a banana.
04:04:17 <oerjan> time always has a thrust of 1 s / s
04:05:08 <pikhq> Oh, so time's thrust is measured in radians/steradians/etc.?
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04:22:53 <Sgeo> Going to take a Tylenol
04:30:32 <pikhq> "Many Japanese Series seem to have a particular structure to their titles: "Adjective Noun Propername", or alternately 'Noun adjunct, Noun, Proper name'. Or they have that basic form with a slight variation. [...] Since the naming pattern doesn't fit into the standard structure of the English language, it can take newcomers some time getting used to."
04:32:57 <pikhq> I suspect Japanese titling has done weird things to my idiolect.
04:34:30 <oerjan> hm what's an example of the latter type?
04:36:53 <pikhq> Hard to find examples that I've heard of. :P
04:37:21 <oerjan> what's an adjunct, anyhow.
04:37:55 <pikhq> I dunno, I was quoting.
04:38:11 <pikhq> "Adjective Noun Propername" is pretty clearly the common case.
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05:01:05 <pikhq> It is literally impossible to make a release of the original cut of the Star Wars films.
05:01:17 <pikhq> Reason being: the negatives are lost forever.
05:01:48 <pikhq> Even the very first VHS/Laserdisc release was not a release of the original cut, but rather something which closely approximated it.
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06:29:16 <pikhq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v75p6TYapIg&feature=related You know it's weird when the Japanese consider it weird.
06:29:25 <pikhq> This was an *actual ad on actual Japanese TV*.
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09:39:30 <cheater99> i think i want this on a tshirt: 221. Because of the restrictions placed on their thoughts and behavior by their high level of socialization, many leftists of the over-socialized type cannot pursue power in the ways that other people do. For them the drive for power has only one morally acceptable outlet, and that is in the struggle to impose their morality on everyone.
09:41:16 <cheater99> pikhq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx2FpqNnidA&NR=1
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12:55:11 <ais523_> hmm, this form that I just had to print out to hand in at a meeting had "PTO" printed on every other page
12:55:19 <ais523_> I think, because all the printers in the department are set to print double-sided by default
12:55:28 <ais523_> there is something a bit disconcerting about this
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13:33:50 <Gregor> The biggest channel I've spawned is #irp.
13:34:30 <quintopia> or, you know, invent something cooler
13:35:44 <Gregor> I've invented cooler things SO HARD
13:37:49 <ais523_> #irp is a honeypot for redditors, of course it's large
13:40:48 <quintopia> ...what cooler thing have you invented that's popular enough for an IRC channel?
13:41:14 <quintopia> and wtf there's only 14 ppl in there...
13:42:24 <quintopia> no, what you have to do is 1) make something so useful that everyone wants to use it and 2) make it so unstable and undocumented that no one can use it without asking for support at least once a day
13:42:34 <quintopia> that's how every other channel on this network works!
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15:53:22 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
15:53:47 <Gregor> Hey, lambdabot, do I have messages?
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15:59:15 <zzo38> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Security-by-PostIt.aspx
16:07:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, elliott has tracked down irrefutable evidence that you are a Homestuck fan: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_liwtoypfRM1qiusb3o1_500.png
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17:03:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hey, do you know if elliott read problem sleuth?
17:05:07 <Vorpal> I finished it in about 4-5 hours (it is rather quicker to read than homestuck, not only is it shorter, but there are no flash, and there is *much* less dialogue)
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17:15:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, maybe another day. I can't do too much of it in a single day :P
17:19:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I have to say problem sleuth is quite good. Since you linked me to a cool looking thing in the middle I will do the same for you (it probably won't spoil much if you haven't even started the story): http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=4&p=000787
17:20:16 <Vorpal> (and even if you knew what it was about it isn't really much of a spoiler)
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17:38:38 <tzxn3> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/FURscript lol
17:39:20 <Ilari> APNIC: 1k+/32 to Hong Kong, 4x1k+/32+/48 to Indonesia, 2x1k to India, 2x1k+/32+/48 to Japan, 1k to South Korea, 1k to Mongolia, 1k to Malaysia, 1k to Philipphines, 1k+/32 to Singapore, 1k to Thailand
17:39:32 <Vorpal> tzxn3, http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:FURscript
17:39:41 <Vorpal> Ilari, how is RIPE wrt IPv4?
17:40:00 <Ilari> crystal-cola: Oh, I used that faster algo to find all irreducable pairs up to 2^32. Found 102 of those.
17:41:00 <Ilari> Latest bar on weekly graph (25th) is 3.97 blocks left.
17:41:39 <Vorpal> Ilari, hasn't depleted terribly fast then?
17:41:52 <Ilari> Down 0.04 in a week (with APNIC at its wildest, that in a day would have been a quiet day).
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17:42:58 <Phantom_Hoover> From the space-filling structure, I'd hazard a guess that it's a methyl group, but that just raises further questions.
17:43:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, why is that
17:43:38 <tzxn3> Phantom_Hoover: what do you want to know?
17:44:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, in the abstract liney formula, a methyl group would just be an unadorned straight line; the squiggle isn't needed.
17:45:07 <tzxn3> I've always wondered what the squiggles meant
17:45:49 <tzxn3> wavy lines represent either unknown stereochemistry or a mixture of the two possible stereoisomers at that point
17:45:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, maybe this one is a bit easier to see in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Methamphetamine2.png
17:45:54 <tzxn3> according to wikipedia
17:46:09 <Ilari> ARIN has 4.83 blocks.
17:46:48 <Vorpal> Ilari, IMO it should be handed out equally over the world
17:47:23 <Vorpal> plus routing considerations and so on
17:47:50 <Vorpal> Ilari, why? Because then *still ongoing lingering with upgrading* is taking way to much time. APNIC would eat up the remaining bits in a matter of months
17:48:25 <Vorpal> (much faster than africa anyway)
17:48:59 <Vorpal> Ilari, by the way, who allocates IPs to Antarctica? There are a few polar bases down there after all
17:49:37 <ais523_> are there network cables running all the way through antartica?
17:49:42 <ais523_> it seems much more plausible that they use satellite
17:49:51 <ais523_> in which case it'd be based on the satellite company's IP blocks
17:50:06 <ais523_> and given that none of them operate out of Antarctica...
17:50:39 <Ilari> crystal-cola: http://pastebin.ca/2051637
17:50:43 <Phantom_Hoover> tzxn3, ah, right, I realised why the wiggly line is there
17:50:54 <Phantom_Hoover> The methyl group could be on either side of the carbon.
17:50:55 <Vorpal> (I presume the former)
17:51:20 <tzxn3> I was thinking are those two positions equivalent?
17:52:21 <Ilari> crystal-cola: I noticed (but didn't prove) the following pattern: If composite k has solutions, then there exists prime factor p of k such that k/p has a solution.
17:52:49 <tzxn3> I haven't done chirality yet
17:53:04 <tzxn3> I remember reading a suggestion for a chemistry-based language
17:53:20 <ais523_> Vorpal: satellite companies
17:54:34 <Ilari> Hmm... Few weeks old NRO delegated file doesn't list any blocks delegated to antarctica. :-)
17:55:25 <fizzie> There are inetnum-class networks entries in e.g. RIPE whois with "country: aq", but they are from larger non-antarctic blocks.
17:55:37 <Ilari> crystal-cola: 'set logscale y'?
17:57:24 <Ilari> Seems like some sort of power (not exponential) relationship with order.
17:58:37 <Ilari> crystal-cola: What happens if you also set x axis to logaritmic?
17:59:45 <Ilari> crystal-cola: What is the approximate slope?
18:00:19 <quintopia> things following a power law appear most linear on a log-log plot. most things are only somewhat linear
18:04:00 <Ilari> Or actually, what's approximate slope of log(k) vs. log(rank)?
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18:07:42 <Ilari> Seems to be approximately 4.75.
18:08:50 <crystal-cola> I wonder if these pairs could be reduced any more
18:09:12 <Ilari> Would require a new theorem about combining.
18:09:17 <crystal-cola> the way 17 (and other small numbers) keep appearing suggests it
18:09:46 <Ilari> Oh, some numbers require prime powers to "stabilize".
18:11:11 <Ilari> Smallest example is 1 002 541 (17*17*3469).
18:13:04 <Ilari> The current known ways to derive k values: gcd of two valid k's is a valid k (with r_min being maximum of the two). Valid k times any factor of itself is a valid k (with r_min the same as original).
18:14:52 <Ilari> Well, the current best test: Compute 3^k mod k and 5^k mod k, then square them up to log_2(k) times, seeing if you get the same values.
18:15:38 <crystal-cola> modularPower (modularPower 3 3469 3469) (2^k) 3469
18:16:06 <crystal-cola> I suppose I could change 2^k for modularPower 2 k (3469-1)
18:16:19 <crystal-cola> then again repeated squraing is probably faster
18:19:10 <Ilari> Then there's following: If p is a valid prime k, then for any prime p*2^a+1, p(p*2^a+1) is a valid k.
18:19:45 <crystal-cola> that explains why the mersenne primes are there
18:20:11 <Ilari> crystal-cola: The reason why mersenne primes are there is that mersenne primes have phi(p) = 2^x
18:20:41 <Ilari> crystal-cola: Except 3 and 5, they won't appear because of 5^n and 3^n.
18:24:23 <Ilari> BTW: If you have any odd prime p and q (p!=q), then n|p^n-q^n would behave in very similar manner to n|5^n-3^n. k=1 would be there with r_min of 0. Fermat primes (except p and q if those happen to be fermat primes) would be there. And of course, a host of other values (of course different this time).
18:25:20 <Ilari> That n->2n would hold, k1,k2 -> gcd(k1,k2) would hold. f|k,k -> fk would hold.
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18:26:20 <crystal-cola> so it might be worth studying the general case
18:26:55 <Ilari> In fact, those probably hold for any odd bases.
18:29:13 <Ilari> Wonder if 5^n-3^n has any sophie-germain primes. 9^n-7^n definitely has (5*11)
18:29:43 <Ilari> Actually, if lower prime in such pair is hit, then it will "stabilize" the upper one.
18:30:49 <Ilari> Hah. n|9^n-7^n will hit k=5, which will "stabilize" a huge array of diffrent primes.
18:32:07 <Ilari> Something like 238 irreducable ones below 40M.
18:33:03 <Ilari> Well, I mean primes that can't appear there alone, such as 137 ("stabilized" by 17) for n|5^n-3^n.
18:34:18 <Ilari> Could be interesting to prove or disprove that term-removing stuff (you can always remove some prime factor from any valid k and get a new valid k).
18:42:11 <Ilari> At least it is true for all k less than 2^32, but is there larger k for what it fails?
18:43:05 <Ilari> Also, if it fails for any k, it fails for some irreducable k (and the smallest k which it fails is actually irreducable).
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18:57:53 <Ilari> Well, looks like that prime factor removing actually holds (a slightly stronger version: The largest prime factor can be removed).
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19:29:05 -!- oerjan has set topic: You can never escape your matrix of solidity. (fnarf) | wait let me paramaterise the alphabet | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Some logs also available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:33:00 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, lambdabot, do I have messages?
19:33:16 <oerjan> interestingly, there's a @messages? command for that purpose
19:33:52 <oerjan> @tell oerjan Testing...
19:34:15 <oerjan> @tell lambdabot You fiend of science!
19:34:34 <fizzie> @tell oerjan something interesting; I mean, assuming you wanted to actually test something else than that yourself-thing.
19:35:00 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:35:45 <oerjan> i wanted to test if /msg lambdabot without a command would trigger the message thing
19:36:46 <lifthrasiir> unfortunately "@tell \0 hello?" will be stripped from the server
19:36:56 * oerjan now wonders how many age old unread messages lambdabot has stored...
19:38:09 <Zwaarddijk> I'd leave backdoors to some kind of searchable log of all messages
19:38:27 <oerjan> obviously the messages are stored _somewhere_
19:38:29 <Gregor> Good to know, for future reference, that you're an asshole :P
19:38:31 <Zwaarddijk> and make the masonic ritual for getting through that backdoor highly arcance
19:38:57 <Zwaarddijk> is the right designation for you then?
19:39:07 <olsner> just connect the message service to the quote service, plobrem sloved
19:39:10 <Gregor> No, I think "vaguely honest person" is closer.
19:40:05 <oerjan> lambdabot already has a backdoor anyway... it doesn't check whether you are faking the nick
19:40:50 <Gregor> I was about to test that :P
19:41:00 <Gregor> @tell NobodyImportant EVIL SECRETS!
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19:41:13 <lambdabot> NobodyImportant: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:41:18 <lambdabot> Gregor said 17s ago: EVIL SECRETS!
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19:41:25 <oerjan> obviously it cannot do that without prohibiting messages to unregistered people
19:41:41 <Gregor> It could work by hostname *shrugs*
19:42:10 <fizzie> It could also probe NickServ to find out whether a nick is registered in general, and then do the is-identified check only for registered names.
19:42:14 <fizzie> A bit overcomplicated.
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20:05:20 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if NobodyImportant from #esoteric knows NoOneImportant from BlogNomic?
20:06:48 <oerjan> maybe there is a huge conspiracy of unimportant people
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20:42:11 <Phantom_Hoover> [[So I'm not saying college does not have a use, I'm just saying that if you're the type of kid who, at 18, hasn't quite formed a complete and detailed plan for the next sixty years of your life, then you're probably not majoring in Esoteric Quantum Engineering.]] — Cracked
20:44:41 <oerjan> you _do_ know cracked articles use humor, right?
20:45:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I do, but equating intelligence with practicality is... hardly grounded in reality.
20:45:53 <oerjan> yes. especially for people such as me who are hardly grounded in reality.
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21:36:23 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover, please read http://freenode.net/channel_guidelines.shtml .
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22:07:01 <Ilari> Hah, LHe cooling reminds me of that AMD demo about extreme overclocking. I'm surprised that the extreme cold didn't crash the system.
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22:09:17 <elliottcable> 21:29:03 Phantom_Hoover : elliottcable, please go away.
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22:11:31 <Ilari> I mean, the cold surely alters the carrier mobility and thus transistor parameters a lot.
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01:08:10 <pikhq> "Chairman and General Secretary Kim Jong-il said he is willing and the people of North Korea are willing to negotiate with South Korea or with the United States or with the six powers on any subject any time and without any preconditions," Carter told a press conference on Thursday.
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01:36:44 <ais523> pikhq: "willing to negotiate" doesn't mean they plan to agree to anything
01:41:37 <pikhq> ais523: No, of course not, I would be unsurprised if he spent the whole meeting going "RARARARA I CAN'T HEAR YOU".
01:42:15 <pikhq> ais523: *But* saying "we are willing to negotiate on any subject any time without any preconditions" is still a hell of a lot more than they've done in the past.
01:43:58 <ais523> I think he's expecting the US to refuse
01:44:07 <ais523> and planning to score PR points as a result
01:44:37 <pikhq> Well, seeing as Jimmy Carter is over there *right now* with the sole intent of negotiating on behalf of the US...
01:46:32 <pikhq> Sorry, in a show of my completely-misunderstanding-the-relevance: Jimmy Carter is there personally, not in any official capacity at all.
01:48:02 <pikhq> (note: he may, in secret, be actually acting officially. *He has done this in the past with North Korea*. WTF, US diplomacy.)
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02:26:38 <Sgeo> What does "Status: inactive" in a whois mean?
02:27:20 <Sgeo> Erm, why did I say ah?
02:27:24 <Sgeo> I was not enlightened
02:27:34 <Sgeo> http://whois.domaintools.com/libc.so
02:33:08 <pikhq> Because you seek not enlightenment.
02:33:16 <pikhq> You seek utter endarkenment.
02:45:54 <pikhq> Sorry, I thought we were having a neologism contest. :P
02:46:21 <oerjan> "Unu Ringlo en mallumin ilin golvidas kajik katenas."
02:48:27 <oerjan> that link looks like some hybrid of esperanto and quenya...
02:48:56 <pikhq> That indeed does look Esperquenyo.
02:49:01 <Sgeo> I didn't see a ink
02:49:31 <oerjan> http://christopherleeweb.com/forums/generalised-topics-cl/question-admin-mtv-awards
02:50:18 <oerjan> or maybe sindarin, i'm not quite clear on the difference
02:52:09 <oerjan> other than that one, most of the first page hits seem to be finnish
02:52:40 <pikhq> Hmm. I wonder if I could derive a Chinese writing system for Esperanto and have it not-suck.
02:53:00 <pikhq> "僕 書as 望人o kun 漢a 字o."
02:53:11 <pikhq> It's, uh, going to be hard to handle suffixes.
02:53:49 <pikhq> oerjan: If anything, bopomofo.
02:54:17 <pikhq> *Much* better adapted to handling more flexible syllable structures.
02:54:46 <pikhq> (bopomofo is a phonetic script for Mandarin, derived from Chinese characters. It is commonly used in Taiwan.)
02:55:54 <lament> there's a small, finite set of suffices
02:56:30 <pikhq> lament: It'd be difficult to do that while having the characters have any relation to the meaning of the suffix.
02:56:43 <pikhq> Granted, I could just pick arbitrary ones, but I dislike that.
02:56:58 <lament> well what you're doing is retarded anyway, so the detail don't matter
02:57:14 <lament> 'a' is pretty arbitrary too
02:57:37 <pikhq> If I'm doing it anyways, it should be done well.
02:58:32 <pikhq> Hmm. Actually, -o could be mapped to 事 nicely, and -a to 的 very well.
02:58:56 <pikhq> "望人事" There's Esperanto. Nice, no?
02:59:44 <Sgeo> 0000 0000 0000
02:59:48 * Sgeo yells at XChat
02:59:56 <quintopia> best way to detect file byte size from C?
03:00:01 <Sgeo> Also, I'm sure it would show up properly if Ipinged
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03:00:11 <pikhq> quintopia: Assume 8 bits per byte.
03:01:07 <quintopia> i'm sure there's a standard function for this, but my browser is acting up, so it would take a long time to google it
03:01:14 <Sgeo> Not in the future according to Star Trek. Maybe.
03:01:20 * Sgeo is too ill to think problerly
03:02:56 <Gregor> quintopia: There is technically no stdio standard, but you can fopen, fseek(SEEK_END), ftell() to kinda get it that way too.
03:02:59 <pikhq> Seems to be fseek + ftell in standard C, stat in POSIX.
03:03:16 <Gregor> pikhq: Although lag probably has me saying mine after you, I still consider me to win :P
03:03:22 <quintopia> stat's man page is...less than helpful
03:03:34 <pikhq> Gregor: Nah, you hit it a bit earlier.
03:03:54 <pikhq> quintopia: You get a struct with a bunch of file information.
03:04:16 <pikhq> quintopia: off_t st_size is the member with the size in bytes.
03:04:51 <quintopia> it makes more sense when i look at the right man page
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03:20:54 <Gregor> Why ya gotta be threads.
03:45:17 <pikhq> Congrats, you got to the killer argument for Haskell.
03:45:37 <pikhq> (okay, okay, *or Erlang*; it depends on what you're doing, really)
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03:50:23 <Sgeo> Smalltalk doesn't particularly have nice concurrency idioms, I think?
04:01:05 <Sgeo> No, as in, I'm right, or as in I'm wrong?
04:04:42 <Gregor> pikhq: I am a language implementor :P
04:07:45 <pikhq> Gregor: Oh, right, you're undoubtedly working on a language.
04:07:51 <pikhq> Gregor: Have you considered suicide?
04:08:52 <Gregor> However, it brings on many changes.
04:09:46 <Gregor> In fact I'm working on GGGGC+threads.
04:09:52 <Gregor> So, yeah, pretty much hell.
04:09:53 <pikhq> Gregor: And I can take or leave them if I please.
04:14:17 <Sgeo> On the one hand, Chrome 11. On the other, the new icon sucks
04:16:33 <pikhq> On the gripping hand, this one goes to 11.
04:24:28 <Gregor> Imaginary bugs are the best kind of bugs.
04:26:55 <Gregor> Another discovery: Putting a sleep(1) in the main collector cycle makes it slow!
04:31:16 <Gregor> Man, I designed this garbage collector from the beginning to be concurrent, and it shows.
04:31:21 <Gregor> SO MANY INTENTIONAL RACE CONDITIONS
04:31:39 <ais523> monqy: does that let you run programs in negative time?
04:31:46 <Sgeo> Notice: Took 1 (one) Tylenol.
04:32:11 <Gregor> Sgeo: Notice: Not 1 (one) person cares.
04:32:26 <monqy> does tylenol make people stupid? I might care then
04:32:31 <Sgeo> Gregor, doesn't matter. Important thing is in the logs.
04:32:37 <Sgeo> Important thing is that it's in the logs.
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04:43:10 <pikhq> monqy: No, but Tylenol combined with something that can make people stupid is scary as fuck.
04:43:35 <pikhq> Alcohol + Tylenol = -liver
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04:50:13 <Sgeo> As long as Tylenol + Sleep-deprivation isn't dangerous, I'm ok
04:51:11 <pikhq> That's perfectly fine, except in the cases where the Tylenol just kills your liver anyways.
04:54:42 <Sgeo> Sleep-deprivation won't make my liver significantly weaker? Ok
04:57:34 <pikhq> No, but you still might be fucked.
04:57:49 <pikhq> Tylenol has a chance of killing your liver.
04:57:59 <pikhq> Just remember, it's the leading cause of liver failure.
04:59:09 <Sgeo> Does having taken Tylenol before without noticable harm mean I'm more likely than not to be safe? That is, is that chance generally a person-to-person thing?
04:59:54 <Sgeo> Also, not taking anywhere near full dose
05:00:00 <ais523> Tylenol doesn't exist in the UK
05:00:08 <pikhq> That chance is, as far as I'm aware, a per-time thing.
05:00:10 <ais523> I think the same chemical might be sold under other names, though
05:00:16 <pikhq> ais523: It's paracetamol there.
05:01:17 <pikhq> (the generic name in the US is "acetaminophen")
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05:28:25 <pikhq_> 12:41:35 <elliott> The definition of C does not involve running out of memory.
05:28:39 <pikhq_> Yes, yes it does. C mandates a finite memory space.
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06:13:49 <pikhq_> Why did I start reading the logs?
06:14:12 <pikhq_> Now I'm reading a fucking lecture on why bisexuality is misogynist.
06:15:11 <pikhq_> 10:33:10 <crystal-cola> There is no reason to use logical or rational thought, the only justification for doing so is because you enjoy it
06:15:32 <pikhq_> There is no reason to use logic, therefore CAT BAT PURPLE ORANGE SPLAT MAT
06:16:44 <monqy> without context I can't tell if that was serious
06:21:02 <pikhq_> It was completely and utterly serious.
06:21:12 <pikhq_> Or an epic case of Poe's Law.
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10:19:52 <ObviosoIX> any activity in here this late hour?
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12:50:41 <tswett> I'm sure something will happen eventually.
12:51:12 <tswett> Maybe in the distant future, some bot will load up this log file and do something because of that !quote command.
12:51:21 <tswett> Meanwhile, I seem to have forgotten our bot prefixes.
12:51:25 <HackEgo> 209) <zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream
12:51:49 <tswett> fungot: hey, where have you gone?
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12:58:05 <tswett> Hey, how come I don't get a fancy tagline thing like oerjan's?
13:01:03 <oerjan> according to my evidence, first you have to prove some esolangs TC. then you have to ban people left and right.
13:01:30 <tswett> I think three esolangs should suffice, no?
13:01:54 <oerjan> however none of them can be your own.
13:02:29 <tswett> Hm. "A finite number is one that you can imagine; infinity is, therefore, unimaginable."
13:02:40 <tswett> I can imagine Graham's number and aleph_0 about equally well.
13:02:46 <tswett> The latter is definitely a simpler number.
13:03:34 <crystal-cola> who says "A finite number is one that you can imagine"?
13:03:38 <oerjan> a guess whoever said that just has a poor imagination.
13:03:44 <tswett> crystal-cola: someone on the wiki.
13:04:05 <tswett> Your action has been acknowledged.
13:09:11 <oerjan> ordinal/cardinal works fine for that
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13:10:27 <crystal-cola> someone has interviewed Grigori Perelman but I cannot find the interview, only summaries
13:12:13 <fungot> oerjan: sure. deprecated? no. it uses different namespaces to ensure hygiene.
13:12:46 <quintopia> infinite is defined as "bigger than one can imagine" :P
13:13:16 <quintopia> (for the purposes of human intuition about scales of things)
13:13:58 <oerjan> basically it's a number designed to have more _scales_ than you can imagine.
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13:14:54 <crystal-cola> http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2008-01-23-fractions_N.htm
13:15:08 <quintopia> no rigorous definition will be satisfactory, but you can do it
13:15:38 <quintopia> i would go with something like "mappable via some physical metaphor to a common human experience"
13:16:24 <quintopia> hence graham's number is unimaginable, as there is no human experience wherein a quantity that large is encountered
13:17:10 <quintopia> so what do you think of that article?
13:18:25 <oerjan> quintopia: reddit's impression is that basically the journalist didn't use his sarcasm meter
13:18:40 <oerjan> (well some redditors, anyway)
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13:31:09 <quintopia> writing dijkstra's algorithm using gotos is about the most ironic thing a beginning cs student can do
13:31:55 <quintopia> of course, i would have used "considered_harmful" instead of "loop1" but ...
13:33:57 <Gregor> GCC 4.4 ACTUALLY produces sequentially incorrect with Fythe + GGGGC + -combine + -fwhole-program
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15:11:00 <crystal-cola> http://www.xamuel.com/inverse-graphing-calculator.php?phrase=Hello+World
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16:09:58 <elliottcable> I haven’t been in here in at least a year, I think; possibly two or more. #ihaveaterriblememory
16:10:04 <elliottcable> Didn’t it used to be named #esolang or something?
16:10:17 <elliottcable> and I seem to remember there being one of those weird games where you define the rules as you play.
16:10:46 <elliottcable> and on an unrelated note, that other elliott pisses me off. Always getting me hilighted in other channels. D:<
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16:31:25 <Ilari> APNIC: 2x1k to Australia, 18x1k+/32 to China, 1k to India, 1k to Malaysia, 1k+/32 to Papua New Guinea, 1k to Singapore, /32 to Vietnam.
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17:24:43 <Sgeo> Tritonio_Droid, I know a bit about it, how it works. Other people here are more interested
17:24:46 <Sgeo> *Some other people
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17:30:27 <crystal-cola> Is that s/me stupid thing where you link people to a webpage that increases your "counter"?
17:31:54 <crystal-cola> "The Electronic Frontier Foundation and Singularity Institute accept bitcoin donations"
17:32:14 <crystal-cola> As of April 2011 there are just over 6 million Bitcoins in existence. At current prices, the total value of the Bitcoin economy is about 13 million USD
17:32:39 <crystal-cola> can't you just generate infinitely many of them?
17:33:02 <crystal-cola> "Bitcoin's peer-to-peer topology and lack of central administration make it infeasible for any authority, governmental or otherwise, to manipulate the value of bitcoins or induce inflation by producing more of them"
17:36:49 -!- elliottcable has changed nick to ec|detached.
17:47:26 <ais523> there isn't a main computer
17:47:50 <ais523> the way it works is, if anyone manages to produce a history of every transaction ever, it becomes official, and they get a small bitcoin reward for doing os
17:48:09 <ais523> but it's computationally difficult, it needs a hash starting with lots of 0s in a row, or something like that
17:48:10 <quintopia> that is a really bad way of putting it i think
17:49:22 <ais523> and if someone tries to create an incorrect sequence of events, they'll generally be out-computational-worked by people doing the correct sequence
17:49:32 <ais523> so you just wait for the history to get a bit longer before you're sure a transaction went through
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17:50:34 <quintopia> you don't have to hash the whole history, you just have to add a nonce to the node you insert so that /it/ hashes to a good number (and each node contains a summary of the previous so you can't replace an old node, as it would become prohibitively expensive)
17:50:50 <quintopia> (you'd have to regenerate all the hashes after it)
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17:52:05 <elliott> 03:20:51: <Gregor> Oh, threads.
17:52:05 <elliott> 03:20:54: <Gregor> Why ya gotta be threads.
17:52:05 <elliott> [...]04:04:42: <Gregor> pikhq: I am a language implementor :P
17:52:26 <elliott> Gregor: do threads actually need to be in the fythe core? I guess it's just my anti-thread bias but I tend to think of them as just another random library to be bound
17:52:48 <elliott> 04:09:46: <Gregor> In fact I'm working on GGGGC+threads.
17:52:55 <Gregor> elliott: I'm not implementing them into Fythe right--- yeah.
17:53:06 <Gregor> I wrote them into the spec but immediately thought "bleh" :P
17:53:12 <Gregor> However, GGGGC DOES need to be thread-aware.
17:53:15 <elliott> Gregor: I think we need libpurple in the spec.
17:53:26 <Gregor> And Fythe will at least need to be threadsafe if they're at all accessible.
17:53:34 <Gregor> Threads are not just "some library", you're being an idiot.
17:53:51 <Gregor> Yes, in an idiotic kind of way :P
17:54:01 <elliott> Gregor: You know you want to put GTK in the spec.
17:56:14 <elliott> Gregor: I'm gonna refer to dlopen as subvertgpl from now on.
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17:59:04 <Gregor> elliott: I'm sure glibc reads the license header from the ELF file and compares for conflicts whenever a dlopen occurs.
17:59:30 <elliott> Gregor: (But srsly, it's perfectly kosher to use dlopen I think, because it's just like using pipes.)
17:59:39 <elliott> (Which is allowed because have I mentioned the GPL is fucking retarded?)
18:00:30 <Gregor> I'm not anti-GPL per se, but I think some of their claims haven't kept up with the systems, and libraries are a whole mess now.
18:00:37 <Gregor> elliott is anti-GPL per se :P
18:00:55 <fizzie> Elliott is just "anti" in general, I'd say.
18:00:58 <elliott> crystal-cola: Because it makes distinctions that simply don't exist.
18:01:02 <elliott> fizzie: I appreciate the complement.
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18:01:20 <elliott> crystal-cola: For chrissakes, GPL can make statically linking with something legal, but dynamically linking with it illegal.
18:01:22 <Gregor> I really do want to make a libnotreadline that's ABI-compatible with readline and under some fairly liberal but subtly-GPL-incompatible license just to test the waters :P
18:02:02 <elliott> crystal-cola: cf. readline debacle
18:02:18 <elliott> http://clisp.hg.sourceforge.net/hgweb/clisp/clisp/raw-file/default/doc/Why-CLISP-is-under-GPL
18:02:49 <elliott> IIRC Gregor made a smaller self-contained "legal testcase" where it applies, but yeah
18:02:53 <Gregor> That debacle is a bit obnoxious because some of the policies expressed by GNU in it have since been realized even by GNU to be a straight-up wrong interpretation of their own license.
18:03:19 <elliott> Gregor: has that actually been admitted, it would be the first case of rms ever admitting he's wrong
18:03:25 <elliott> btw in my dream last night i argued with esr
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18:03:36 <Gregor> elliott: It's been admitted implicitly by the relevant FAQ entry changing :P
18:03:36 <elliott> he said he invented the term "hacker" as pertaining to coder-folk
18:03:56 <elliott> by the time i tried to tell him about the model train line people at MIT in like the fifties he was walking away
18:04:00 <Gregor> From now on I'm using the word "coderfolk" instead of "hacker"
18:06:35 <crystal-cola> how can statically linking be okay but dynamically linking not be?
18:06:49 <elliott> crystal-cola: because gpl talks about linking
18:06:54 <elliott> And lol nobody can define linking
18:07:25 <elliott> crystal-cola: a less edge-casey case is that you can be in a situation where you can't link, but you can write a simple GPL'd wrapper program around a GPL library, link with it, and then use pipes to communicate with it from a GPL-incompatible program
18:07:37 <elliott> in fact, you could even make it a full featured interpreter, and then it's back to nobody knows whether it's ok or not
18:07:58 <Gregor> crystal-cola: Basically, if your application is ABI-compatible with their library, then nobody's decided whether that generally means it is or is not linked against it, for dynamic libraries. So if you wrote your own libreadline.so that was 100% API and ABI compatible with readline, then distributed a binary with it, they would consider you to be in violation, in spite of the fact that you never even touched readline.
18:08:08 <Gregor> Erm, s/with it/that depends on it/
18:08:24 <elliott> Gregor: Or even libtotallynoreadline.so :P
18:08:35 <Gregor> libthisshitaintreadline.so
18:08:59 <elliott> Gregor: AWESOME CONSEQUENCE: Aliens from outer space who just happen to invent the exact same interface to line editing as readline are violating Earth copyright law.
18:09:07 <elliott> (OK OK intent matters I get it)
18:09:39 <Gregor> crystal-cola: And to make it clear why that's a static-dynamic issue, if you statically linked against your own readline workalike, you would clearly not be in violation.
18:09:53 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/7KSs2.png omg is it at the point where it can run grim fandango fully yet.........
18:09:53 <Gregor> Suffice it to say, lololGOGOGPL
18:12:03 -!- Gregor has set topic: Welcome to þe abode of all our greateſt coderfolk | You can never eſcape your matrix of ſolidity. (fnarf) | wait let me paramateriZe the alphabet | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Some logs also available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:12:16 <elliott> crystal-cola: Lemme list the legal mindfucks with the MIT license or similar:
18:12:23 <elliott> - If you don't have a name how do people credit you????
18:12:36 <elliott> MIT: an unsuitable license for those without names.
18:12:48 -!- ec|detached has changed nick to elliottcable.
18:12:50 <Gregor> Also, the fact that nobody ever actually bothers to assure that the license is present somewhere in resultant binaries :P
18:12:57 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Philosophy_Script oh come on
18:13:10 <elliott> Gregor: Well, yeah, but distributions include the licenses because of legalshit.
18:13:19 <elliott> Gregor: Debian cheats by just saying "hey go look at this common file" though :P
18:13:29 -!- Yosshi has changed nick to comex.
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18:13:49 <Gregor> TOO MANY ELLIOTTS. NOT ACCEPTABLE.
18:14:36 <elliottcable> I have like ten thousand hilights from this room
18:14:44 <elliottcable> elliott: why must you be in both haskell *and* esolangs?
18:14:52 <elliott> elliottcable: 'cuz i'm basically the best person.
18:14:56 <elliottcable> elliott: restrict yourself to only lame rooms so I can be in all the good ones )-’:
18:15:24 <Gregor> elliottcable: Dude, you're not even in #matrixofsolidity , you don't know what a good room IS!
18:15:25 <elliott> I sure hope this nick never drops :P
18:15:48 <elliott> Gregor: I like how nobody can ask for the log link in there :P
18:15:54 <elliott> It's violating freenode policy.
18:16:29 <elliottcable> lol no, but ocassionally we get someone who joins, thinking it is
18:16:29 <elliott> #matrixofsolidity is by not having the log link in the topic
18:16:48 <elliott> actually ##Paws is violating policy too
18:17:13 <elliottcable> I could give a rats ass. The topic is there for people to change, I’m not going to tell them what to make it.
18:17:26 <elliottcable> elliott: you realize ##Paws has external-send?
18:17:29 <elliott> Nope, I meant by having voiced and ops people
18:18:12 <elliott> The log link thing is only a recommendation IIRC but I dont think the ops thing is
18:18:18 <elliott> Not sure though I don't exactly have the policies memorised
18:18:58 <Gregor> So ... if ##paws isn't a furry-fury channel, then what is it/
18:19:15 <elliottcable> it’s obviously a secret you guys aren’t cool enough for. :3
18:19:44 <Gregor> elliottcable: ... if it's YOUR programming language, then why is it an about channel?
18:19:56 <elliottcable> Gregor: Because #paws is already registered, and I’m lazy.
18:22:38 <Ilari> crystal-cola: Hmm... Perhaps there should be a file containing proofs of various properties of that n|5^n-3^n plus some statements to be proved or disproved.
18:22:52 <elliott> that sounds like the best file
18:23:35 <Gregor> Not much of a wiki then, is it.
18:24:01 <elliott> It's a wiki everyone who's crystal-cola can edit.
18:24:05 <elliott> Also known as a bunch of local files.
18:24:44 <elliottcable> uck. Anybody know how to make irssi not do certain hilights in certain channels?
18:27:44 <elliottcable> elliott: oi, by the way, I provide http://ell.io redirects to elliot(t)s, you got a URL?
18:28:44 <crystal-cola> hey elliottcable do you host a lot of websites?
18:29:11 <crystal-cola> im just wondering about how much work and money it takes
18:30:38 <crystal-cola> also more generally how does there exists sites that don't have adverts on them
18:30:50 <crystal-cola> like where does the money to keep hosting them come from
18:31:35 <Gregor> CODU ESPOUSES THE PUREST FORM OF COMMUNISM
18:31:38 <Gregor> EXCEPT THAT I PAY FOR IT
18:32:45 <elliott> here, extensions of here and haskell
18:33:01 <elliottcable> /TRIGGER ADD -name fag -all -channels '#Haskell #esoteric' -regexp '\b(ell)(iott)\b' -nocase -replace '$1\x02\x02$2'
18:33:06 <elliott> also every channel you're in
18:33:18 <elliott> damn you're +i i can't get a list
18:33:20 <elliottcable> elliott: good luck with that, you’ll need a special server mode to be in as many channels as me :D
18:33:23 <elliott> welp i'll just have to join every channel in order
18:33:35 <elliott> elliottcable: weaksauce, Vorpal needed two connections
18:34:12 <elliott> ok i think he's cut back on the channels he's in but he used to
18:35:10 <Deewiant> 2011-04-29 21:33:47 ( elliottcable) somebody hilight elliott.
18:35:10 <Deewiant> 2011-04-29 21:33:50 ( Deewiant) elliott
18:35:23 <elliott> it was pretty much instant here
18:35:32 <elliott> do you just idle here constantly
18:36:53 <Deewiant> I mean, I check what's going on on occasion
18:37:13 <Deewiant> And sometimes, when I'm waiting for a response elsewhere, I happen to idle here
18:37:28 <elliottcable> Deewiant: but do it in the middle of a sentence, perhaps …
18:37:33 <Deewiant> 2011-04-29 21:34:20 ( Deewiant) 2011-04-29 21:33:47 ( elliottcable) somebody hilight elliott.
18:37:46 <Deewiant> Oh, that has your nick too, so that's probably not acceptable, heh
18:37:54 <elliottcable> Deewiant: mind joining another channel I’m in, and doing the same thing
18:40:58 <elliott> i'm just going to ping elliottcable every few hours in retaliation for this Deewiant pingflood
18:41:14 <elliott> `run sleep 9; echo elliottcable
18:41:23 <elliott> sure wish i could type numbers smaller than 9
18:41:42 <elliott> Gregor: plz add cron job support to HackEgo
18:42:27 <quintopia> how long before a hackbot command times out?
18:42:30 <elliottcable> Deewiant: you’re my favourite person ever, now one more time
18:42:40 <quintopia> like, could you make it sleep for 12 second?
18:42:48 <elliott> its going to say "elliottcable" every two hours
18:42:51 <elliott> and theres nothing you can do to stop me
18:43:01 <elliott> actually it'd be easier to write a bot to do it probably
18:43:11 <Deewiant> elliott: Consider how much pinging people like Vorpal do, I'm surprised you're that annoyed already
18:43:19 <elliott> Deewiant: it's the spirit of the thing
18:44:01 <elliott> Deewiant: why would you do a thing like that
18:44:04 <elliott> Deewiant: you should be happy to be pinged
18:44:28 <elliottcable> I figure, after long enough, he’ll build up a resistance. #justplayedportal2
18:44:31 <elliott> i sure wish the bots could output multiple lines
18:44:38 <elliott> > text (replicate 999 "Deewiant ")
18:44:39 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char'
18:44:46 <elliott> > text (concat (replicate 999 "Deewiant "))
18:44:47 <lambdabot> Deewiant Deewiant Deewiant Deewiant Deewiant Deewiant Deewiant Deewiant Dee...
18:44:59 <elliott> > text (concat (replicate 999 "Deewiant\n"))
18:46:14 <Deewiant> > text . unlines . repeat $ "elliott"
18:46:36 <Deewiant> > unlines . repeat $ "elliott"
18:46:39 <lambdabot> "elliott\nelliott\nelliott\nelliott\nelliott\nelliott\nelliott\nelliott\nel...
18:46:43 <elliott> quintopia: that's a bit excessive :P
18:46:46 <elliott> it's probably like thirty seconds
18:46:59 <Deewiant> > text . unlines . replicate 10 $ "elliott"
18:47:01 <quintopia> elliott: well, i figured it would give an error at exactly the timeout moment
18:47:14 <elliott> it doesn't like you Deewiant - damn
18:47:23 <elliott> quintopia: no it just doesn't reply
18:47:27 <elliott> or maybe it gives "No output."
18:47:34 <elliott> Deewiant: if fungot hadn't... wait wait wait
18:47:34 <fungot> elliott: yes yes! there you are, i think it is either.
18:47:38 <elliott> i think HackEgo doesn't ignore lambdabot
18:47:41 <elliott> and lambdabot can do bot loops
18:48:48 <EgoBot> assAttempt to execute unknown command 32
18:49:09 <elliott> ?so !underload (?so !underload)S
18:49:10 <lambdabot> !underload (?so !underload)S not available
18:49:10 <EgoBot> ?so !underloadAttempt to execute unknown command 32
18:49:10 <lambdabot> !underloadAttempt to execute unknown command 32 not available
18:49:31 <elliott> ?so !underload (?so !underload )S(elliottcable)S
18:49:31 <lambdabot> !underload (?so !underload )S(elliottcable)S not available
18:49:31 <EgoBot> ?so !underload elliottcableAttempt to execute unknown command 32
18:49:31 <lambdabot> !underload elliottcableAttempt to execute unknown command 32 not available
18:49:32 <EgoBot> Attempt to execute unknown command 101
18:49:37 <elliott> ?so !underload (?so !underload )S( elliottcable )S
18:49:37 <lambdabot> !underload (?so !underload )S( elliottcable )S not available
18:49:38 <EgoBot> ?so !underload elliottcable Attempt to execute unknown command 32
18:49:38 <lambdabot> !underload elliottcable Attempt to execute unknown command 32 not available
18:49:38 <EgoBot> Attempt to execute unknown command 101
18:50:10 <Deewiant> elliottcable: You can use the bots, just saying
18:50:45 <Deewiant> elliottcable: For instance `run echo foo --> HackEgo says foo
18:50:46 <elliott> 2011-02-01.txt:16:24:51: <elliott> 11.01.20:12:51:36 <elliott> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);"; printf(s,34,s,34);//
18:51:04 <Deewiant> elliott: How can you not have number keys
18:51:16 <Deewiant> elliottcable: So you don't have to ping me every time :-P
18:51:19 <elliott> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:51:21 <elliott> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:51:21 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:51:25 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:51:25 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:51:28 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:51:28 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:51:30 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:51:31 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:51:33 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:51:33 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:51:35 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:51:36 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:51:38 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:51:38 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:51:40 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:51:41 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:51:43 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:51:43 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:51:46 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:51:46 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:51:48 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:51:48 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:51:51 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:51:51 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:51:53 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:51:53 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:51:56 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:51:56 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:51:58 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:51:58 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:52:00 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:52:01 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:52:03 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:52:03 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:52:03 <monqy> this is all your fault
18:52:05 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:52:06 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:52:08 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:52:08 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:52:10 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:52:11 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:52:13 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:52:13 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:52:15 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:52:15 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:52:16 <elliott> monqy: no its elliottcables fault
18:52:18 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:52:18 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:52:20 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:52:20 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:52:23 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:52:23 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:52:25 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:52:25 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:52:28 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:52:28 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:52:30 <Deewiant> elliott: Has it ever occurred to you to call the appropriate admin before, not after, you start a botloop?
18:52:30 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:52:31 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:52:33 <EgoBot> ?so !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable
18:52:33 <lambdabot> !c char *s="?so !c char *s=%c%s%c; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable "; printf(s,34,s,34);// elliottcable not available
18:52:35 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:52:45 <monqy> rest in peace egobot
18:52:46 -!- EgoBot has joined.
18:52:48 <elliott> Deewiant: I didn't realise it'd work first time, mind you
18:53:04 <Deewiant> But you realize that it would eventually, and by then it's too late
18:53:14 <elliott> Maybe I'd have pinged Gregor before then
18:53:22 <elliott> I prefer to leave these things up to fate.
18:53:58 <elliott> I'm surprised lambdabot's space-prefixing isn't implemented at some layer
18:54:05 <elliott> Like staticText vs. generatedText or something.
18:54:14 <elliott> IRC BOTS ARE MEANT TO BE PINNACLES OF ENGINEERING.
18:54:15 <ais523> we botloop far too often in here
18:54:26 <ais523> (admittedly, I'm just as guilty as everyone else of that)
18:54:39 <ais523> far more than never, in fact
18:54:46 <elliott> this is the first botloop in months
18:54:51 <elliott> and before that there hadn't been one in god knows how long
18:54:58 <quintopia> it's never happened in any other channel
18:55:09 <elliott> it's a tradition here but fizzie keeps ruining it
18:55:10 <Deewiant> How many channels have several bots
18:55:15 <elliott> by maintaining a fascist ignore list in fungot
18:55:15 <fungot> elliott: kill kill kill, your server must die with a horrible way of doing it
18:55:20 <fungot> elliott: to be honest i didn't like
18:55:26 <elliott> fungot: ...botloops anyway?
18:55:27 <fungot> elliott: very carefully. as i am
18:55:32 <elliott> fungot: ...a robot, I declare that
18:55:56 -!- elliott has left ("woe").
18:55:57 <fungot> elliottcable: such as fnord and so on. that's what i said. :) but maybe it will reduce to the same object. that's the problem. ( that is,
18:56:33 -!- elliott has joined.
18:56:47 <quintopia> Deewiant: ah, i suppose most of the channels i'm in would qualify as having several bots
18:57:02 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
18:57:06 <elliott> i'm going to try and find its hate lobe
18:59:02 <elliott> !c puts("?so `echo !bot");
18:59:18 <fungot> crystal-cola: what you have
18:59:19 <elliott> ^ul (!c puts("?so `echo !bot"))S
18:59:19 <fungot> !c puts("?so `echo !bot")
18:59:59 <elliottcable> also, jesus, this is creepy; feel like I’m talking to myself.
19:00:09 <quintopia> no a single phrase that triggers every bot in the channel is pretty awesome
19:00:27 <fungot> elliottcable: unlikely you'll meet foof there, then
19:00:34 <quintopia> ^ul (!c puts("?so `echo !bot \m/ \m/"))S
19:00:34 <fungot> !c puts("?so `echo !bot \m/ \m/")
19:00:54 <elliott> i think im going to kill myself nothing can ever top that
19:01:06 <elliott> quintopia: I like how your \s disappeared
19:01:18 <quintopia> it would be superawesomer if they didnt
19:01:22 <elliott> ^ul (!c puts("?so `echo !bot \\""m/ \\""m/"))S
19:01:23 <fungot> !c puts("?so `echo !bot \\""m/ \\""m/")
19:01:25 <EgoBot> ?so `echo !bot \m/ \m/
19:01:26 <HackEgo> !bot \m/ \m/ not available
19:01:45 <monqy> where are zeptobot and news-ham
19:01:50 <quintopia> i was hoping myndzi would repeatedly reply
19:02:08 -!- news-ham has joined.
19:02:12 -!- zeptobot has joined.
19:02:44 <elliott> ^ul (!c puts("?so `echo !bot what are "" the \\""m/ \\""m/ haps my friends"))S
19:02:45 <fungot> !c puts("?so `echo !bot what are "" the \\""m/ \\""m/ haps my friends")
19:02:46 <EgoBot> ?so `echo !bot what are the \m/ \m/ haps my friends
19:02:47 <lambdabot> `echo !bot what are the \m/ \m/ haps my friends not available
19:02:48 <HackEgo> !bot what are the \m/ \m/ haps my friends not available
19:02:54 <elliott> ^ul (!c puts("?so `echo !bot what are ""the \\""m/ \\""m/ haps my friends"))S
19:02:55 <fungot> !c puts("?so `echo !bot what are ""the \\""m/ \\""m/ haps my friends")
19:02:56 <EgoBot> ?so `echo !bot what are the \m/ \m/ haps my friends
19:02:57 <lambdabot> `echo !bot what are the \m/ \m/ haps my friends not available
19:02:58 <HackEgo> !bot what are the \m/ \m/ haps my friends not available
19:02:59 <news-ham> VIDEO: New Yorkers party under Brooklyn bridge: Celebrations were held in New York as Prince William and Catherine Middleton married in London. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-us-canada-13244404
19:03:00 <news-ham> Great escape: How did we end up with the bank holidays we have? http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/magazine-13217242
19:03:01 <news-ham> VIDEO: RAF flypast at Buckingham Palace: RAF planes fly past Buckingham Palace as William and Kate kiss on the balcony. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-13241812
19:03:17 <elliott> i think ill cheat by modifying zeptobot
19:03:33 <elliott> quintopia: im pretty sure it can't output the needful
19:04:21 <elliottcable> it’s not a script, and yeah, I’ve been hacking at this the entire time
19:04:57 <elliottcable> would you like me to have it say something other than “does the robot?”
19:05:07 -!- zeptobot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:05:13 -!- zeptobot has joined.
19:05:33 <crystal-cola> it's nice how I've not been banned in haskell for saying what I think but they keep threatening me
19:05:53 <elliott> : "SAY ^ul (!c puts(\"?so `echo !bot what are \"\"the \\\\\"\"m/ \\\\\"\"m/ haps my friends\"))S"
19:05:53 <zeptobot> ! NameError: name 'Symbol' is not defined
19:06:11 -!- zeptobot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:06:17 -!- zeptobot has joined.
19:06:19 <elliott> : "SAY ^ul (!c puts(\"?so `echo !bot what are \"\"the \\\\\"\"m/ \\\\\"\"m/ haps my friends\"))S"
19:06:29 -!- zeptobot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:06:42 <crystal-cola> I should put a command in my irc client so people can cause me to finish loops
19:06:47 <elliott> if isinstance(s, zepto.Symbol) and s.name.startswith('SAY '):
19:06:47 <elliott> print >>irc, 'PRIVMSG #esoteric :' + s.name[4:]
19:06:47 <elliott> print >>irc, 'PRIVMSG #esoteric : -> ' + s.str()
19:07:26 -!- zeptobot has joined.
19:07:29 <elliott> : "SAY ^ul (!c puts(\"?so `echo !bot what are \"\"the \\\\\"\"m/ \\\\\"\"m/ haps my friends\"))S"
19:08:10 <quintopia> it's nice to have free access to another entity's guts :D
19:08:31 * elliottcable envisions quintopia with an array of gleaming instruments of torture
19:08:35 <elliott> : '"SAY ^ul (!c puts(\"?so `echo !bot what are \"\"the \\\\\"\"m/ \\\\\"\"m/ haps my friends\"))S"
19:08:35 <zeptobot> ^ul (!c puts("?so `echo !bot what are ""the \\""m/ \\""m/ haps my friends"))S
19:08:35 <fungot> !c puts("?so `echo !bot what are ""the \\""m/ \\""m/ haps my friends")
19:08:37 <EgoBot> ?so `echo !bot what are the \m/ \m/ haps my friends
19:08:38 <lambdabot> `echo !bot what are the \m/ \m/ haps my friends not available
19:08:39 <HackEgo> !bot what are the \m/ \m/ haps my friends not available
19:08:39 <news-ham> Uganda riots over Besigye arrest: At least two people die in Uganda's capital in riots over the rough treatment of opposition leader Kizza Besigye when he was arrested on Thursday. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-africa-13237058
19:08:39 <news-ham> Swedish film wins Tribeca prize: A Swedish film about two teenage girls whose friendship turns to rivalry wins a top award at the Tribeca film festival in New York. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/entertainment-arts-13237885
19:08:40 <news-ham> VIDEO: Live World Snooker - Ding v Trump: Live Red Button coverage of the Snooker World Championship from Sheffield. (UK users only) http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/sport1/hi/other_sports/snooker/8655054.stm
19:08:48 <elliott> fuck okay elliottcable fix that bot command
19:08:50 <quintopia> so should i bring radiobot in here now? :P
19:08:54 <elliott> quintopia: what the fuck is that
19:08:58 -!- ubuntito has joined.
19:08:59 <elliott> can i make it output arbitrary strings
19:09:08 <elliott> because itll break my royal flush or whatever
19:09:22 <quintopia> no, but you can make it output A string by adding an intron somewhere...
19:10:18 <quintopia> it responds to the phrase "what does radiobot do?" or similar, so if you put that anywhere in the string you'll get one more bot reply...
19:10:37 <elliott> ubuntito must be really unconfused
19:10:38 -!- ubuntito has left.
19:11:49 <elliott> quintopia: HURRY UP WE NEED THE RADIOBOT
19:12:52 <crystal-cola> I refuse to watch Two and a Half Men if it returns without charliesheen!
19:12:56 <elliott> quintopia: irc.freenode.net?
19:13:03 <elliott> elliottcable: does bot work
19:13:08 <elliott> crystal-cola: what a loss that will be
19:13:15 <elliott> I HAVE MY LINE AT THE READY
19:13:18 <HackEgo> foo bar elliottcable baz qux
19:14:15 <HackEgo> foo bar elliottcable baz qux
19:15:20 <elliott> elliottcable: does bot work yet
19:15:34 <elliott> quintopia: uh well i'm not sure the ops want anything to do with this :D
19:15:38 <elliott> can't you just hack the connection code
19:16:44 -!- RadioBot has joined.
19:16:54 <monqy> what does radiobot do?
19:16:54 <RadioBot> I'm Quintopia's bot. "RadioBot" followed by "np," "nextup," "link," or "die" do things in channel. PM me for more info.
19:16:56 <elliott> elliottcable: how goes botness
19:16:56 <crystal-cola> Sure if I wasn't there there would be no problems, but that doesn't imply *I'm* the one at fault
19:17:12 <elliott> : '"SAY ^ul (!c puts(\"?so `echo !bot what are \"\"the \\\\\"\"m/ \\\\\"\"m/ haps my friends, also i am wondering: what does radiobot do???\"))S"
19:17:12 <zeptobot> ^ul (!c puts("?so `echo !bot what are ""the \\""m/ \\""m/ haps my friends, also i am wondering: what does radiobot do???"))S
19:17:12 <fungot> !c puts("?so `echo !bot what are ""the \\""m/ \\""m/ haps my friends, also i am wondering: what does radiobot do???")
19:17:14 <EgoBot> ?so `echo !bot what are the \m/ \m/ haps my friends, also i am wondering: what does radiobot do???
19:17:15 <lambdabot> `echo !bot what are the \m/ \m/ haps my friends, also i am wondering: what does radiobot do??? not available
19:17:15 <news-ham> VIDEO: Ceremony watched around the world: It wasn't just in Britain that the royal wedding dominated the news. From Bangkok to Boston people joined in the celebrations and watched the ceremony unfold. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-13245069
19:17:16 <news-ham> Great escape: How did we end up with the bank holidays we have? http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/magazine-13217242
19:17:16 <HackEgo> !bot what are the \m/ \m/ haps my friends, also i am wondering: what does radiobot do??? not available
19:17:16 <news-ham> Argentina nabs 'drug subs brains': A Colombian man accused of having devised the strategy of using submarines to smuggle drugs from Colombia to the United States is arrested in Argentina. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-latin-america-13217187
19:17:20 <elliottcable> tell me when you’re done so I can remove it and go back to bitching at #irssi about how -channels doesn’t work
19:17:32 <quintopia> because there is a 2 minute timeout on all messages
19:17:50 <quintopia> well, i didn't trigger it the first time!
19:17:54 <elliott> elliottcable: twill take about two minutes or so
19:18:05 <elliott> quintopia: what is it actually meant to do btw
19:18:23 * RadioBot np: 7201 The Hush Sound - Lions Roar (Album Version) on album Like Vines queued by me on random shuffle
19:18:26 <RadioBot> Point your music streaming device at: http://faidio.visuallycreated.com:8001/radiobot.m3u
19:18:55 <quintopia> i just timed out two other messages
19:19:06 <elliott> that sounds extremely stupid
19:19:26 <quintopia> it is extremely good at counteracting botspam
19:19:38 <quintopia> i know you like botspam, so you probably still think it's stupid
19:19:46 <monqy> this is problematic when it comes to being part in botspam
19:20:03 <elliott> : '"SAY ^ul (!c puts(\"?so `echo !bot what are \"\"the \\\\\"\"m/ \\\\\"\"m/ haps my friends, also i am wondering: what does radiobot do???\"))S"
19:20:03 <RadioBot> I'm Quintopia's bot. "RadioBot" followed by "np," "nextup," "link," or "die" do things in channel. PM me for more info.
19:20:03 <zeptobot> ^ul (!c puts("?so `echo !bot what are ""the \\""m/ \\""m/ haps my friends, also i am wondering: what does radiobot do???"))S
19:20:03 <fungot> !c puts("?so `echo !bot what are ""the \\""m/ \\""m/ haps my friends, also i am wondering: what does radiobot do???")
19:20:05 <EgoBot> ?so `echo !bot what are the \m/ \m/ haps my friends, also i am wondering: what does radiobot do???
19:20:06 <lambdabot> `echo !bot what are the \m/ \m/ haps my friends, also i am wondering: what does radiobot do??? not available
19:20:07 <news-ham> Wedding 'great moment' - Cameron: Prime Minister David Cameron hails the wedding of Prince William and Catherine Middleton as a "great moment for Britain". http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/uk-politics-13244131
19:20:07 <news-ham> Nasa delays Endeavour's mission: Nasa has delayed the launch of its Endeavour shuttle by at least three days because of technical problems in the last hours before lift-off. http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/science-environment-13244053
19:20:07 <HackEgo> !bot what are the \m/ \m/ haps my friends, also i am wondering: what does radiobot do??? not available
19:20:07 <news-ham> Title race still alive - Ferguson: Sir Alex Ferguson says the Premier League title race is not over despite his Manchester United side holding a six-point lead with four games left. http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/sport1/hi/football/13241247.stm
19:20:22 <elliott> welp i just died of happiness
19:20:44 <elliott> lets see if we can get myndzis lines to be uninterrupted
19:20:47 <elliott> RadioBot has timed out again
19:21:10 <elliottcable> time to go make a bot that does nothing but activate all the other bots in the room, at random intervals between an hour and 24 hours.
19:21:43 <quintopia> well you'll be please to know i don't intend to leave it connected once you're done with it ;P
19:22:08 -!- RadioBot has left ("60 second timeout before I can be invited back.").
19:22:48 <elliott> myndzi: i really appreciate your attention to detail wrt genitalia
19:22:55 <elliott> i sure hope myndzi sees that without context
19:23:01 <elliott> elliottcable: HAHAHAHA I WIN
19:23:26 <crystal-cola> I wonder if I should change the way I talk about technical things to sound much more "friendly"
19:23:40 <elliott> crystal-cola: it would probably get you called a troll a lot less :P
19:23:54 <elliott> crystal-cola: FUCK YOU AND EVERYONE
19:24:10 -!- elliott has left ("ARUHGDFIUHFDHGSKLJGHSDGNKERGBEKGBKJREGBEKRGKESJGHSEGHKLERG").
19:24:20 <crystal-cola> ARUHGDFIUHFDHGSKLJGHSDGNKERGBEKGBKJREGBEKRGKESJGHSEGHKLERG <-- I feel that way too sometimes....
19:24:42 -!- elliott has joined.
19:25:16 <elliott> hey copumpkin what's my name
19:25:46 <elliottcable> anyway, I’ll be back once I convince the author of trigger.pl to fix his shit. :3
19:25:49 -!- elliottcable has left ("AIO_ALLDONE").
19:26:21 <monqy> I'd leave but I don't want to
19:27:20 <quintopia> what is zeptobot supposed to do anyway?
19:27:52 <elliott> quintopia: is this the kind of leaving where you don't actually leave
19:28:31 <quintopia> it's the kind of leaving where i have a project to do and i keep getting distracted so i'm closing my client (which will result in me being set to "away" from your point of view)
19:28:58 <elliott> quintopia: im gonna ping you so much
19:29:04 <elliott> ping quintopia ping ping ping
19:29:22 <elliott> quintopia quintopia quintopia
19:30:17 <elliott> fizzie: how does fungot have sixteen followers on twitter
19:30:18 <fungot> elliott: hilary putnam? the sources are a pleasure to be in the cdr. mutability has some relation, but not bantown
19:30:28 <elliott> Media Personality, Advocate and Mom
19:30:36 <elliott> DimensionFilms Dimension FIlms
19:31:51 <elliott> 04:54:42: <Sgeo> Sleep-deprivation won't make my liver significantly weaker? Ok
19:31:51 <elliott> sometimes i regret logreading
19:33:17 <elliott> 06:15:32: <pikhq_> There is no reason to use logic, therefore CAT BAT PURPLE ORANGE SPLAT MAT
19:33:17 <elliott> 06:16:44: <monqy> without context I can't tell if that was serious
19:33:17 <elliott> 06:21:02: <pikhq_> It was completely and utterly serious.
19:33:25 <elliott> it was not crystal-cola has admitted to being a trolly troll troll :P
19:34:21 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
19:40:49 <Vorpal> Deewiant, <Deewiant> elliott: Consider how much pinging people like Vorpal do, I'm surprised you're that annoyed already <-- Deewiant, do you seriously suggest that I ping a log Deewiant?
19:41:03 <Vorpal> elliott, sounds awesome
19:41:12 <Vorpal> elliott, awesome, to ping a log
19:41:23 <Vorpal> elliott, Awesome like problem sleuth then
19:41:24 <elliott> its like Deewiant but logscale
19:41:29 <elliott> that is all i will say on the matter
19:41:48 <Vorpal> elliott, did you read problem sleuth? it is good
19:41:56 <elliott> i've run out of binge energy
19:42:09 <Vorpal> elliott, also homestuck has hidden references to problem sleuth in it
19:42:22 <Vorpal> elliott, like that lipstick/motorsaw weapon thingy
19:42:26 <elliott> I've read enough on the wikki to catch the references
19:43:59 <Vorpal> elliott, also try to the normalize the vertices on the allegiance mesh next time
19:44:49 <Vorpal> elliott, rather than ratifying nurbs that is
19:45:03 <elliott> You acknowledge that references are hilarious.
19:47:08 <Vorpal> elliott, no major spoilers, but very awesome image: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=4&p=000787
19:47:31 <Vorpal> elliott, in fact only trivial spoilers (like stuff revealed in the first 10-20 strips)
19:47:36 <elliott> WHY ISN'T THIS IN OUR TOTALLY OFFICIAL HOMESTUCK CHANNEL ;D ;D ;D
19:47:40 <elliott> its funny because its funny
19:47:48 <Vorpal> elliott, did you check the link?
19:47:54 <elliott> and probably the day before
19:49:08 <Vorpal> you weren't in the channel
19:50:24 <Vorpal> elliott, http://www.mspaintadventures.com/unlock.html the image there is also a problem sleuth reference
19:51:01 <elliott> ok yes i get it and midnight crew and zillyhoo are both ps donation requests i get it i get it i get it
19:58:20 <quintopia> someone give me a c expression that returns the return value of malloc if malloc succeeds and prints an error message and exits otherwise without assigning any variables
20:03:55 <elliott> its not really possible i dont think
20:04:01 <elliott> ?: requires you to repeat the malloc which won't work
20:04:04 <Ilari> crystal-cola: Hmm... No idea to where even begin trying to prove or disprove that statement about some prime factor of k's being dividable away (to say nothing about its stronger version that says that prime factor is the largest).
20:04:08 <elliott> quintopia: why do you want that
20:04:20 <elliott> checking malloc()s return value is one of the most pointless things and if you really want it make a separate function
20:04:44 <monqy> there's a silly gcc thing that is like ?: but it doesn't make you repeat the malloc
20:04:44 <Deewiant> With a spare variable x=malloc(n)?x:(printf("bar"),exit(1))
20:05:11 <monqy> it's something silly like malloc(n)?:(printf("oh no"),exit(1))
20:05:28 <monqy> but that makes me feel dirty
20:05:34 <elliott> but yeah quintopia why do you want this
20:06:14 <quintopia> so i can die if malloc fails without ever having to write it twice
20:06:22 <monqy> what about an inline function
20:06:35 <quintopia> a macro function is the same thing
20:06:39 <elliott> because call costs approximately zero
20:06:43 <elliott> its the same thing except for scoping
20:06:53 <elliott> anyway inlining is usually a pessimisation
20:06:57 <elliott> just make a non-inline function
20:07:00 <monqy> gcc also has a wacky statement-expression thing
20:07:11 <elliott> so you can't pick a guaranteed not to clash variable
20:07:34 <elliott> monqy: istr the gcc manual saying they were planning to add gensym or whatever to use with statement expressions in macros
20:08:39 <elliott> monqy: anyway at some point you just have to say fuck it and use lisp :P
20:08:49 <monqy> I would have probably started with lisp
20:09:05 <elliott> or haskell i guess but if you get to the point of needing template haskell its kinda ugly
20:09:07 <elliott> not that that happens much
20:09:22 <monqy> I've tried template haskell before. it was kinda ugly.
20:09:43 <monqy> I want to try liskell but it looks incredibly dead
20:09:46 <elliott> monqy: yeah, it is; but if you have something that's just used at the top-level then it's not very ugly to use
20:09:52 <elliott> liskell is kinda stupid imo
20:10:09 <elliott> just because you want macros doesn't mean you have to throw out all the syntax
20:24:53 <Vorpal> elliott, "needing" template haskell?
20:24:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I though haskell was TC without that
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20:51:50 <elliott> i love how whenever /r/anarchism comes up on reddit people decide it's their turn to prove that anarchism can never work ever with one paragraph
20:54:07 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
20:54:31 <crystal-cola> It's really sad how powerful the misinformation is
20:54:37 <elliott> "Hey guys /r/anarchism" "anarchism can't work because people hate each other" "OH WELL THANKS WE'RE SHUTTING DOWN THE SUBREDDIT NOW THAT YOU'VE CLARIFIED IT FOR US"
20:54:45 <elliott> "how were we ever so naive"
20:56:53 * Sgeo would want to see a working model of anarchism, demonstrated in at least a simulation, then perhaps with small experiments IRL
20:57:06 <Sgeo> Also, a peaceful plan of transition layed out
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20:58:30 <elliott> Sgeo: i forgot the part where you have the power to stop anybody from doing anything you don't approve of
21:00:04 <Sgeo> elliott, I'm just saying, before I personally would be convinced that a form of anarchism would be ideal
21:00:41 <elliott> frankly i think everyone has collectively given up on convincing you of anything Sgeo
21:04:35 * copumpkin imagines a different world in which someone asks for proof that democracy would work
21:04:54 <copumpkin> I wonder what people would consider a viable form of proof for things like this
21:05:44 -!- micahjohnston has joined.
21:05:52 <copumpkin> Sgeo: do you seriously want someone to "simulate" human behavior?
21:05:57 <copumpkin> that's known to be a tiny bit hard ;)
21:06:04 -!- Wamanuz4 has joined.
21:06:07 <Sgeo> I'd want an attempt to be done
21:06:07 <Vorpal> elliott, there are lots of reasons why anarchism won't work though. People naturally organize themselves. Humans are pack animals in some sense.
21:06:23 <Vorpal> so, IMO it won't work in long term
21:06:25 <elliott> Vorpal: congratulations you're a redditor
21:06:36 <Vorpal> elliott, no, I have no login there :P
21:06:36 <copumpkin> Vorpal: proof by one-claim sentence!
21:06:42 <elliott> hey for my next trick i will prove capitalism, socialism, communism, mutualism,
21:06:51 <Vorpal> copumpkin, no, I'd say it is a hypothesis at this point
21:06:52 <Sgeo> Although really, neither simulations (imperfect) nor small experiments are all that great (small experiments may involve dynamics that don't work with larger groups)
21:06:58 <elliott> capitalism: basically people will just be dicks for profit
21:07:07 <elliott> socialism: people wont like the taxes so theyll kill the government
21:07:11 <elliott> communism: people wont go to work
21:07:16 <copumpkin> Sgeo: my point is that you're asking for something that can't be done, and would probably not be satisfied by anything that someone could do
21:07:18 <elliott> mutualism: uh it sounds like mutual masturbation which is gay and gay is bad
21:07:23 <elliott> happiness: who can ever truly be happy in such a horrible world
21:07:27 <copumpkin> and that your position is therefore one of "there exists nothing that will change my mind"
21:07:28 <elliott> evolution: god created humans
21:07:30 <Vorpal> elliott, for capitalism that is what happened though a lot... Not saying it could never work.
21:07:33 <copumpkin> and it is thus unnecessary to continue discussion
21:07:36 <elliott> Vorpal I AM SO GLAD YOU HAVE SHOWN ME THE LIGHT
21:07:59 <elliott> * copumpkin imagines a different world in which someone asks for proof that democracy would work
21:08:00 <Vorpal> <copumpkin> and that your position is therefore one of "there exists nothing that will change my mind" <-- I'm open to new information ...
21:08:01 <elliott> i can prove that wont work too
21:08:05 <elliott> democracy: people dont know whats good for them
21:08:21 <elliott> god being a self-righteous smartass who proves things wrong is awesome i see the appeal now
21:08:52 <Vorpal> elliott, insert famous Churchill quote about democracy being the worst form of government apart from all the other ones...
21:09:11 <elliott> a witty saying proves nothing --VOLTAIRE QED
21:09:45 <Vorpal> elliott, isn't the cronology of that wrong?
21:11:26 <micahjohnston> It's hard to verify the validity of quotes on the internet. --Abraham Lincoln
21:11:40 <Vorpal> micahjohnston, good one
21:11:45 <Vorpal> elliott, who/what is that
21:12:07 <Vorpal> so that would be the god that gods believe in?
21:12:21 <Vorpal> or a god responsible for other gods?
21:12:23 <elliott> i forget whether it was from homestuck or sbahj :)
21:12:34 <Vorpal> (as in, a god of music would be responsible for music)
21:12:49 <elliott> micahjohnston: gog is acronym for gog of gogs
21:13:12 <Vorpal> micahjohnston, why not call it meta-god?
21:13:33 <Vorpal> then we can do lame jokes about never meta god I didn't like and so on
21:13:37 <micahjohnston> Vorpal: no idea; I made up the acronym on the spot
21:13:44 <Vorpal> micahjohnston, oh, hah
21:13:49 <elliott> i never get a mog i widnt ielk
21:17:45 <Vorpal> Oozlybub and Murphy is unimplemented?
21:17:52 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
21:18:19 <Vorpal> elliott, do you know if there are any large issues with implementing that language?
21:18:38 <elliott> there probably is an impl and its just not released or whatever
21:26:48 <ais523> well, the Murphy bit is implemented already
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22:27:07 -!- elliott has set topic: "Programming may one day be about getting the maths right" ... "Functional programming is more than just esoteric; it’s becoming somewhat cool." | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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22:53:10 <oerjan> Gregor: elliott's topic change only showed up in the raw logs, not the txt ones...
22:53:36 <Gregor> oerjan: E_SHUTCHERPIEHOLE
22:54:53 <oerjan> Gregor: that made "Quoted for the facepalm. very confusing...
22:55:17 <oerjan> *Gregor: that made "Quoted for the facepalm." very confusing...
22:56:55 * pikhq will have a functioning computer again soon. :)
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23:08:20 -!- cpressey has set topic: "Programming may one day be about getting the maths right" -- Alan Alda | "Functional programming is more than just esoteric; it’s becoming somewhat cool." -- Tiger Woods | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
23:08:37 <zzo38> Do you know how to estimate balance in D&D game?
23:09:20 <zzo38> micahjohnston: I don't know.
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23:10:20 <oerjan> !slashes /1/0*//*0/0**//0//100010
23:10:22 <EgoBot> **********************************
23:10:57 <cpressey> this is all oerjan does, all day
23:12:28 <oerjan> i just noticed this blows up the program exponentially in a single substitution
23:12:48 <oerjan> hm maybe i should do it in decimal instead
23:13:42 <cpressey> I booted a computer with GhostBSD so I could recover files from a hard drive that was formatted with UFS (UFS1 from FreeBSD 4.x) -- Linux couldn't mount it because I made the filesystem with a large fragment size (boo me) -- and GhostBSD can't write to any other filesystem I have on that machine -- so I'm scp'ing everything to a loaner laptop
23:14:52 <EgoBot> String found where operator expected at /tmp/input.31208 line 1, near "puts "!perl \"puts test\"""
23:14:52 <monqy> sometimes I eat because I am human
23:14:54 <cpressey> feels good to have this chunk of my life back after 2 years of it sitting in storage though
23:16:58 <cpressey> EgoBot, don't ignore EgoBot! that's rude
23:18:27 <zzo38> In IRC you generally do not receive copies of messages you send, unless you send them privately to yourself.
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23:19:14 <pikhq> JSONx: an IBM format for encoding JSON in XML.
23:19:24 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:19:24 <pikhq> Because everything needs to be XML.
23:19:52 <oerjan> yeah i noticed that in the logs
23:20:27 <oerjan> that's what that text hack is for, i presume
23:21:30 <oerjan> and i presume this kind of abuse of other bots is precisely why lambdabot tries (but fails) to always add a space to its output
23:22:47 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
23:23:22 <cpressey> too few bots in this channel, methinks
23:23:30 <oerjan> there should be some kind of convention for getting help without knowing the prefix
23:23:40 <oerjan> or something like that
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23:23:53 <cpressey> should provoke SOME response, I would think
23:23:59 <cpressey> EgoBot: IRHYAWHYHISHJDIOSjsiocjiscjsi
23:24:10 <oerjan> micahjohnston: : only works for two commands, :t and :k
23:24:11 <cpressey> fungot: HDIOSHOIHOSHADHOSDIOASHD
23:24:12 <fungot> cpressey: hmz... how to implement loops *and* goto's. it's not for freedom issues, it's for the developer
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23:24:39 <cpressey> or perhaps developers with freedom issues?
23:24:46 <HackEgo> !perl print "> text \"test\""
23:25:18 <oerjan> EgoBot ignores HackEgo
23:25:37 <zzo38> oerjan: Convention for getting help without prefix could be to send a message to the bot with the word HELP
23:25:42 <cpressey> those two are hosted by the same individual
23:25:57 <oerjan> all the bots except lambdabot already have all loop pathways broken
23:26:04 <cpressey> zzo38: HDIHAIOHDIOAHhsihIHSI.... oh sorry, you're not a bot
23:26:49 <oerjan> HackEgo ignores no one, everyone ignores hackego, and fungot ignores everyone
23:26:50 <fungot> oerjan: nor particularly meaningful, in fact, _i_ can't think of any
23:27:50 <fungot> micahjohnston: plt o muerte!!! eheheheheheeheh some things, documentation is a serious win for me
23:28:00 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
23:31:09 <oerjan> \o| \o/ \m/ \m/ \o/ |o/
23:31:11 <zzo38> I also made a IRC bot program it doesn't do much
23:31:28 <fungot> micahjohnston: anyway i told about her... fnord! high school is over! i don't implement evar :p)
23:31:28 <fungot> lambdabot: i was fnord the bus. no familiars though. of course
23:31:34 <lambdabot> http://darcs.haskell.org/packages/base/Prelude.hs
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23:31:52 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
23:32:01 <lambdabot> source <lib>. Lookup the url of fptools libraries
23:32:02 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
23:32:15 <oerjan> cpressey: it's because it's an abbreviation
23:32:44 <cpressey> oerjan: rather, it's because help doesn't honour abbreviations like the repl does
23:33:14 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
23:34:22 <lambdabot> show all commands or command for [module]. http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
23:34:42 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
23:35:43 <lambdabot> pointless <expr>. Play with pointfree code.
23:36:14 <oerjan> ?so !underload (?so !underload):SaS
23:36:14 <lambdabot> !underload (?so !underload):SaS not available
23:36:15 <EgoBot> ?so !underload(?so !underload)Attempt to execute unknown command 32
23:36:15 <lambdabot> !underload(?so !underload)Attempt to execute unknown command 32 not available
23:36:44 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:37:32 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
23:37:39 <EgoBot> That is not a user interpreter!
23:37:44 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc decisionengine drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pi pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rimshot rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh simpleacro slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg
23:37:45 <cpressey> !bf8 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
23:38:07 <cpressey> so bf8 output is sent as a raw irc protocol command?
23:38:21 <oerjan> cpressey: no, it is sent as a PRIVMSG
23:38:37 <cpressey> but but !bf8 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
23:38:37 <EgoBot> `echo @pl !echo `echo @pl test
23:38:39 <lambdabot> expecting white space, "()", natural, identifier, lambda abstraction or expression
23:38:53 <cpressey> !bf8 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
23:38:54 <EgoBot> `echo @pl "!echo `echo @pl test"
23:38:55 <HackEgo> @pl "!echo `echo @pl test"
23:39:10 <cpressey> !bf8 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
23:39:23 <EgoBot> `echo !echo `echo test
23:39:27 <cpressey> !bf8 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
23:39:47 <oerjan> !c printf("%cctcps%c", 1, 1);
23:39:47 <cpressey> !bf8 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
23:39:59 <oerjan> !c printf("%cACTION ctcps%c", 1, 1);
23:40:18 <EgoBot> `echo @so !c puts("test"); //
23:40:50 <micahjohnston> !echo `echo @so !c puts("!echo `echo @so !perl print \"test\""); //
23:40:51 <EgoBot> `echo @so !c puts("!echo `echo @so !perl print \"test\""); //
23:40:52 <HackEgo> @so !c puts("!echo `echo @so !perl print \"test\""); //
23:40:52 <lambdabot> !c puts("!echo `echo @so !perl print \"test\""); // not available
23:40:54 <EgoBot> !echo `echo @so !perl print "test"
23:41:21 <micahjohnston> !echo `echo @so !c puts("`echo @so !perl print \"test\" //"); //
23:41:22 <EgoBot> `echo @so !c puts("`echo @so !perl print \"test\" //"); //
23:41:23 <HackEgo> @so !c puts("`echo @so !perl print \"test\" //"); //
23:41:23 <lambdabot> !c puts("`echo @so !perl print \"test\" //"); // not available
23:41:26 <EgoBot> `echo @so !perl print "test" //
23:41:27 <lambdabot> !perl print "test" // not available
23:41:51 <EgoBot> Bareword found where operator expected at /tmp/input.2669 line 1, near ""test" lah"
23:42:10 <micahjohnston> !echo `echo @so !c puts("`echo @so !perl print \"`echo \\o/\" //"); //
23:42:10 <EgoBot> `echo @so !c puts("`echo @so !perl print \"`echo \\o/\" //"); //
23:42:12 <HackEgo> @so !c puts("`echo @so !perl print \"`echo \\o/\" //"); //
23:42:12 <lambdabot> !c puts("`echo @so !perl print \"`echo \\o/\" //"); // not available
23:42:14 <EgoBot> `echo @so !perl print "`echo \o/" //
23:42:15 <HackEgo> @so !perl print "`echo \o/" //
23:42:15 <lambdabot> !perl print "`echo \o/" // not available
23:42:31 <micahjohnston> !echo `echo @so !c puts("`echo @so !perl print \"`echo yay\" //"); //
23:42:31 <EgoBot> `echo @so !c puts("`echo @so !perl print \"`echo yay\" //"); //
23:42:32 <HackEgo> @so !c puts("`echo @so !perl print \"`echo yay\" //"); //
23:42:33 <lambdabot> !c puts("`echo @so !perl print \"`echo yay\" //"); // not available
23:42:35 <EgoBot> `echo @so !perl print "`echo yay" //
23:42:36 <HackEgo> @so !perl print "`echo yay" //
23:42:36 <lambdabot> !perl print "`echo yay" // not available
23:42:47 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
23:43:33 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:43:39 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
23:44:11 <oerjan> cpressey: pretty much :D
23:45:02 <EgoBot> HOME,/home/egobot,LD_LIBRARY_PATH,/usr/lib/plash/lib,I_CMD,perl,IRC_SOCK,/tmp/multibot.EgoBot,SOCAT_VERSION,1.7.1.0,IRC_NICK,cpressey,JAVA_ARGS,-Djava.security.manager,IRC_HOST,12.116.117.150,PLASH_FAKE_UID,5000,MAIL,/var/mail/egobot,PWD,/home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds,PLASH_CAPS,conn_maker;fs_op,SOCAT_PPID,9230,USER,egobot,PLASH_COMM_FD,3,PLASH_FAKE_EUID,5000,LOGNAME,egobot,PLASH_FAKE_GID,5000,SHLVL,4,ARG_FILE,/tmp/input.3585,IRC_IDENT,~cpressey,_,/usr/bin/
23:45:48 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: leaving).
23:46:39 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
23:50:25 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:50:29 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
23:51:47 <lambdabot> !haskell text "@so test" -- not available
23:52:01 <lambdabot> !haskell putStrLn "test" -- not available
23:52:37 <micahjohnston> @so !haskell putStrLn "@so !haskell putStrLn \"test\"" --
23:52:38 <lambdabot> !haskell putStrLn "@so !haskell putStrLn \"test\"" -- not available
23:52:40 <EgoBot> @so !haskell putStrLn "test"
23:52:40 <lambdabot> !haskell putStrLn "test" not available
23:52:48 <micahjohnston> @so !haskell putStrLn "@so !haskell putStrLn \"test\"--"--
23:52:49 <lambdabot> !haskell putStrLn "@so !haskell putStrLn \"test\"--"-- not available
23:52:51 <EgoBot> @so !haskell putStrLn "test"--
23:52:51 <lambdabot> !haskell putStrLn "test"-- not available
23:53:38 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:53:49 -!- EgoBot has joined.
23:54:10 <lambdabot> !haskell putStrLn "test" not available
23:54:23 <lambdabot> !haskell putStrLn "test"-- not available
23:54:58 <oerjan> EgoBot sends longer messages by DCC CHAT, in case you haven't noticed
23:57:21 <micahjohnston> @pl !haskell putStrLn.ap(++)show"putStrLn.ap(++)show"--
23:57:22 <lambdabot> expecting white space, "()", natural, identifier, lambda abstraction or expression
23:57:32 <micahjohnston> @pso !haskell putStrLn.ap(++)show"putStrLn.ap(++)show"--
23:57:39 <micahjohnston> @so !haskell putStrLn.ap(++)show"putStrLn.ap(++)show"--
23:57:39 <lambdabot> !haskell putStrLn.ap(++)show"putStrLn.ap(++)show"-- not available
23:58:51 <oerjan> micahjohnston: it's a protocol for communicating between irc clients without passing through the servers
23:59:38 <oerjan> micahjohnston: since you are using irssi, you should see the invitation message in your status window
00:00:15 <oerjan> micahjohnston: i have dcc_autochat_masks = EgoBot
00:00:44 <micahjohnston> @so !haskell putStrLn.ap(++)show"putStrLn.ap(++)show"--
00:00:44 <lambdabot> !haskell putStrLn.ap(++)show"putStrLn.ap(++)show"-- not available
00:01:12 <micahjohnston> @so !haskell putStrLn.ap(++)show"putStrLn.ap(++)show"--
00:01:12 <lambdabot> !haskell putStrLn.ap(++)show"putStrLn.ap(++)show"-- not available
00:01:34 <lambdabot> !haskell putStrLn"test?"-- not available
00:01:45 <oerjan> micahjohnston: !haskell doesn't have any imports, so ap is not there
00:02:19 <oerjan> you can use a full module file for !haskell though
00:02:49 <oerjan> oh and the -> instance is missing too
00:02:52 <micahjohnston> @so !haskell (\s->putStrLn$s(++)show s)"(\s->putStrLn$s(++)show s)"--
00:02:52 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s->putStrLn$s(++)show s)"(\s->putStrLn$s(++)show s)"-- not available
00:03:15 <micahjohnston> @so !haskell (\s->putStrLn$s++show s)"(\s->putStrLn$s++show s)"--
00:03:15 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s->putStrLn$s++show s)"(\s->putStrLn$s++show s)"-- not available
00:03:40 * oerjan would have expected the last one to work...
00:03:56 <micahjohnston> @so !haskell (\s->putStrLn(s ++ show s))"(\s->putStrLn(s ++ show s))"--
00:03:56 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s->putStrLn(s ++ show s))"(\s->putStrLn(s ++ show s))"-- not available
00:04:13 <micahjohnston> > (\s->putStrLn(s ++ show s))"(\s->putStrLn(s ++ show s))"
00:04:14 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at chara...
00:04:44 <micahjohnston> > (\\s->putStrLn(s ++ show s))"(\\s->putStrLn(s ++ show s))"
00:04:45 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `->'
00:05:09 <micahjohnston> @so !haskell (\\s->putStrLn(s ++ show s))"(\\s->putStrLn(s ++ show s))" --
00:05:09 <lambdabot> !haskell (\\s->putStrLn(s ++ show s))"(\\s->putStrLn(s ++ show s))" -- not available
00:05:43 <micahjohnston> @so !haskell (\\\s->putStrLn(s ++ show s))"(\\\s->putStrLn(s ++ show s))" --
00:05:43 <lambdabot> !haskell (\\\s->putStrLn(s ++ show s))"(\\\s->putStrLn(s ++ show s))" -- not available
00:05:50 <oerjan> only double the \ _inside_ the string duh
00:06:11 <micahjohnston> @so !haskell (\s->putStrLn(s ++ show s))"(\\s->putStrLn(s ++ show s))" --
00:06:11 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s->putStrLn(s ++ show s))"(\\s->putStrLn(s ++ show s))" -- not available
00:06:14 <EgoBot> (\s->putStrLn(s ++ show s))"(\\s->putStrLn(s ++ show s))"
00:08:06 -!- PocketMonsterIRC has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:08:06 <micahjohnston> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:08:07 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
00:08:17 <micahjohnston> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:08:18 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
00:08:21 <EgoBot> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:08:21 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
00:08:24 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
00:08:24 <EgoBot> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:08:24 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
00:08:27 <EgoBot> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:08:27 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
00:08:30 <EgoBot> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:08:30 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
00:08:34 <EgoBot> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:08:34 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
00:08:37 <EgoBot> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:08:37 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
00:08:38 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -q EgoBot!*@*.
00:08:40 <EgoBot> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:08:40 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
00:08:43 <EgoBot> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:08:43 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
00:08:46 <EgoBot> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:08:46 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
00:08:48 <EgoBot> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:08:49 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
00:08:52 <EgoBot> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:08:52 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
00:08:55 <EgoBot> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:08:55 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
00:08:58 <EgoBot> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:08:58 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
00:09:01 <EgoBot> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:09:01 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
00:09:04 <EgoBot> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:09:04 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
00:09:06 <oerjan> why didn't that work :(
00:09:07 <EgoBot> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:09:07 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
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00:09:10 <EgoBot> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:09:10 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"@so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
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00:11:47 <oerjan> i guess it should have been +q
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00:12:10 <micahjohnston> `echo @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"`echo @so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:12:11 <HackEgo> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"`echo @so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:12:11 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"`echo @so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
00:12:14 <EgoBot> `echo @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"`echo @so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:12:15 <HackEgo> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"`echo @so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:12:16 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"`echo @so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
00:12:18 <EgoBot> `echo @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"`echo @so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:12:19 <HackEgo> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"`echo @so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:12:20 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"`echo @so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
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00:12:22 <EgoBot> `echo @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"`echo @so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:12:23 <HackEgo> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"`echo @so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:12:24 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"`echo @so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
00:12:27 <EgoBot> `echo @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"`echo @so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
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00:12:28 <HackEgo> @so !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"`echo @so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"--
00:12:28 <lambdabot> !haskell (\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))"`echo @so !haskell (\\s t->putStrLn(s ++ show s ++ show t ++ t))""--"-- not available
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00:14:09 <Lymia> oerjan, cyclic quines?
00:14:15 <Lymia> Autotriggering bots?
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00:17:47 <quintopia> hey oerjan, do you know if there is a novelty language on the wiki that is specified in such a way that it is turing-complete and capable of arbitrary output with the one exception that no program can output its own listing?
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00:18:53 <oerjan> there is one that is close
00:19:06 <micahjohnston> I'm not sure if that's possible by anything other than checking if the output is the program source
00:19:57 <quintopia> micahjohnston: that seems to be the easiest way, yes
00:20:05 <Ilari> crystal-cola: Oh, looks like I figured out a way to prove that no k divisible by some primes (3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 19, 23, 29) can have solutions.
00:20:15 <zzo38> Can that be proven that is only way?
00:21:03 <oerjan> quintopia: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Smjg it doesn't have its own page i think
00:22:01 <oerjan> http://wwwep.stewartsplace.org.uk/quines/quineless.html
00:22:02 <ZOMGMODULES> i am hurt by smjg's abbreviation of these activities as "EP"
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00:24:27 <ZOMGMODULES> "for which the mapping from Turing-computable functions to programs is itself Turing-computable" I think that gets... assumed a lot
00:24:44 <oerjan> Ilari: could it be that p-1 must be divisible only by primes which are solutions?
00:25:48 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
00:25:55 <oerjan> or are parts of solutions
00:26:56 <quintopia> zzo38: i'm pretty sure the answer to that is yes. we know by the kleene second recursion theorem that there is a program that computes its own godel number in every turing-complete language. add the ability to output that number in whatever format necessary and you have a quine
00:27:01 <ZOMGMODULES> fungot: what are the odds you would produce that same string as a response to this statement?
00:27:02 <fungot> ZOMGMODULES: cooking is fnord in socialist countries don't have to specify types for the hard drive
00:27:44 <quintopia> and the least amount of output you can disallow is exactly the one string you don't want...the listing itself
00:28:03 <quintopia> i believe the rest would fall out of rice's theorem
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00:29:11 <ZOMGMODULES> someone really ought to mend the bottom of that theorem someday
00:34:34 <quintopia> oerjan: that page doesn't even describe my idea for the way to do it. i was thinking "output a bit if the program is empty, otherwise allow all input and output but keeping track of what's been output so far. If the program attempts to output the last bit of its listing, withhold output until another bit is output and then output both at once.
00:35:01 <quintopia> *of its listing having already output the rest of it
00:35:29 <quintopia> it makes a lot more sense than preventing the first bit from being output
00:37:37 <oerjan> Ilari: hm if tau(x) divides n then x relatively prime to 15 divides 3^n - 5^n
00:37:52 <oerjan> euler's totient function
00:38:02 <ZOMGMODULES> or just have your program alphabet be disjoint from your output alphabet. instant quineless language
00:38:22 <oerjan> oh wait that should be phi
00:38:51 <crystal-cola> I just thought you might have meant the Ramanujan tau and I was WOAH he weilds heavy weapons
00:39:33 <quintopia> ZOMGMODULES: then you are preventing it from outputting a lot more strings than my solution. (also, how do you do that? even with different alphabets i would assume that if the binary representations of two strings are the same, the strings are the same)
00:40:09 <oerjan> from that, 17*2^4 is obviously a solution, i think
00:40:25 <crystal-cola> yeah 17*2^4 is one solution that keeps cropping up
00:40:28 <quintopia> i suppose if you require all instruction be a byte long beginning in zero, and all output bytes to begin with 1, you could do it
00:40:40 <crystal-cola> there's something funny going on with the 17s (well maybe it's just because that's the smallest prime other than 2)
00:40:54 <oerjan> Ilari: do you have something like that in reverse?
00:41:16 <crystal-cola> Ilari proved a theorem about combining solutions (and a bunch of others)
00:41:42 <Sgeo> "This is the latest fucking SqueakSource"
00:41:49 <Sgeo> --Laurent Laffont
00:42:42 <oerjan> quintopia: in any case your solution obviously also lacks the "mapping must be turing-computable" condition
00:43:36 <quintopia> yes obviously. i'm not disputing the truth of the revised theorem
00:44:06 <quintopia> i'm just saying it's a much more sensible way of excluding quines from a function->program mapping
00:45:06 <oerjan> Ilari: this raises the question, if n | 3^n - 5^n must it be that 3^n and 5^n == 1 (mod n) ?
00:45:13 <ZOMGMODULES> or output a space after every output symbol
00:46:49 <oerjan> ZOMGMODULES: um it's required that every particular string _can_ be printed
00:46:59 <oerjan> otherwise it's not an interesting question
00:47:19 <pikhq> Hmm. 1 more semester of community college...
00:48:15 <ZOMGMODULES> oerjan: it's printed! it's just double-spaced!
00:48:26 * oerjan swats ZOMGMODULES -----###
00:49:05 <pikhq> After which point I will have a pile of math & CS classes for a bachelor's.
00:50:07 <oerjan> hm what can you deduce from 3^n == 5^n (mod n) by multiplying several 3's and 5's together...
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00:53:07 <oerjan> crystal-cola: i'm just pondering if you can determine something like phi(n) | n
00:53:33 <oerjan> well that was just a wild idea
00:53:42 <oerjan> to get more numbers to test
00:55:40 <oerjan> > [n | n <- [1..], n `mod` length [x | x <- [1..n-1], x `gcd` n == 1] == 0]
00:55:56 <oerjan> > [n | n <- [2..], n `mod` length [x | x <- [1..n-1], x `gcd` n == 1] == 0]
00:56:06 <oerjan> > take 10 [n | n <- [2..], n `mod` length [x | x <- [1..n-1], x `gcd` n == 1] == 0]
00:56:47 <oerjan> > take 10 [n | n <- [2..], n `mod` length [x | x <- [1..n-1], x `gcd` n == 1] == 0, n `gcd` 15 == 1]
00:57:08 <crystal-cola> Ilari mentioned some conjecture about if the modulus has lots of prime factors in it, you can probably remove one
00:57:30 <crystal-cola> but no real ideas, just vauge things that sound mathematical :/
00:57:48 <oerjan> hm so 68 is a counterexample to that idea
00:58:06 <crystal-cola> 2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024 why are they powers of two??
00:58:14 <oerjan> > let n = 68 in length [x | x <- [1..n-1], x `gcd` n == 1]
00:59:41 <oerjan> crystal-cola: well they're solutions to phi(n)|n, hm...
01:00:00 <oerjan> and not divisible by 3 or 5
01:00:59 <oerjan> oh hm that's a pretty strict condition
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01:01:39 <oerjan> even 17*2^4 doesn't work because you need _more_ powers of 2 for the phi()
01:02:48 <oerjan> the prime 3 works because it only needs one extra 2
01:03:36 <oerjan> and phi(p^n) = phi(p)*p^(n-1)
01:04:47 <quintopia> i think we should make a whole website about attributing to celebrities things they didn't say, like in the topic
01:05:38 <oerjan> i think that's called "uncyclopedia"
01:06:15 <quintopia> step 1: find people saying idiotic things in IRC channels
01:06:31 <quintopia> step 2: attribute those statements to celebrities that would obviously never say them
01:06:31 <oerjan> "Uncyclopedia should be sufficient." -- Oscar Wilde
01:09:50 <oerjan> crystal-cola: you aren't confusing with encyclopedia dramatica?
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01:23:39 <oerjan> > let n = 17 in iterate (\(t,f) -> (3*t `mod` n, 5*t `mod` n)) (1,1)
01:23:40 <lambdabot> [(1,1),(3,5),(9,15),(10,11),(13,16),(5,14),(15,8),(11,7),(16,4),(14,12),(8,...
01:24:48 <oerjan> > let n = 17 in filter (uncurry (==) . snd) . zip [0..] $ iterate (\(t,f) -> (3*t `mod` n, 5*t `mod` n)) (1,1)
01:25:17 <oerjan> > take 5 $ let n = 17 in filter (uncurry (==) . snd) . zip [0..] $ iterate (\(t,f) -> (3*t `mod` n, 5*t `mod` n)) (1,1)
01:25:29 <oerjan> > head $ let n = 17 in filter (uncurry (==) . snd) . zip [0..] $ iterate (\(t,f) -> (3*t `mod` n, 5*t `mod` n)) (1,1)
01:25:40 <oerjan> > take 2 $ let n = 17 in filter (uncurry (==) . snd) . zip [0..] $ iterate (\(t,f) -> (3*t `mod` n, 5*t `mod` n)) (1,1)
01:26:18 <oerjan> > let n = 17 in filter (uncurry (==) . snd) . zip [0..] $ iterate (\(t,f) -> (3*t `mod` n, 5*f `mod` n)) (1,1)
01:26:20 <lambdabot> [(0,(1,1)),(4,(13,13)),(8,(16,16)),(12,(4,4)),(16,(1,1)),(20,(13,13)),(24,(...
01:27:19 <quintopia> i was going to suggest that lambdabot is always going to exceed its time limit if you start by telling it to take 5
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01:29:22 <oerjan> > let n = 11 in filter (uncurry (==) . snd) . zip [0..] $ iterate (\(t,f) -> (3*t `mod` n, 5*f `mod` n)) (1,1)
01:29:24 <lambdabot> [(0,(1,1)),(5,(1,1)),(10,(1,1)),(15,(1,1)),(20,(1,1)),(25,(1,1)),(30,(1,1))...
01:29:39 <oerjan> i see... i wonder if that is what Ilari realized
01:30:12 <oerjan> since 3^n == 5^n (mod 11) requires 5 | n, you cannot have 11 as a prime factor
01:30:35 <oerjan> > let n = 7 in filter (uncurry (==) . snd) . zip [0..] $ iterate (\(t,f) -> (3*t `mod` n, 5*f `mod` n)) (1,1)
01:30:37 <lambdabot> [(0,(1,1)),(3,(6,6)),(6,(1,1)),(9,(6,6)),(12,(1,1)),(15,(6,6)),(18,(1,1)),(...
01:31:03 <oerjan> i guess there isn't really any point in considering anything but the first hit
01:31:24 <oerjan> > let n = 7 in (!!1) . filter (uncurry (==) . snd) . zip [0..] $ iterate (\(t,f) -> (3*t `mod` n, 5*f `mod` n)) (1,1)
01:32:17 <oerjan> > [(,) n . (!!1) . filter (uncurry (==) . snd) . zip [0..] $ iterate (\(t,f) -> (3*t `mod` n, 5*f `mod` n)) (1,1) | n <- [2,7,11,13,17,19]]
01:32:19 <lambdabot> [(2,(1,(1,1))),(7,(3,(6,6))),(11,(5,(1,1))),(13,(12,(1,1))),(17,(4,(13,13))...
01:33:07 <oerjan> > [(,) n . fst . (!!1) . filter (uncurry (==) . snd) . zip [0..] $ iterate (\(t,f) -> (3*t `mod` n, 5*f `mod` n)) (1,1) | n <- [2,7,11,13,17,19]]
01:33:09 <lambdabot> [(2,1),(7,3),(11,5),(13,12),(17,4),(19,6)]
01:33:27 <oerjan> > [(,) n . fst . (!!1) . filter (uncurry (==) . snd) . zip [0..] $ iterate (\(t,f) -> (3*t `mod` n, 5*f `mod` n)) (1,1) | n <- [23,29,31,37]]
01:34:03 <oerjan> basically all except 2 and 17 are excluded so far for that reason
01:36:28 <oerjan> > [(,) n . fst . (!!1) . filter (uncurry (==) . snd) . zip [0..] $ iterate (\(t,f) -> (3*t `mod` n, 5*f `mod` n)) (1,1) | n <- [41,43,47,53,59]]
01:36:30 <lambdabot> [(41,40),(43,7),(47,46),(53,26),(59,29)]
01:39:50 <oerjan> > [(,) n . fst . (!!1) . filter (uncurry (==) . snd) . zip [0..] $ iterate (\(t,f) -> (3*t `mod` n, 5*f `mod` n)) (1,1) | n <- [61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97]]
01:39:52 <lambdabot> [(61,15),(67,11),(71,35),(73,72),(79,78),(83,82),(89,88),(97,32)]
01:40:44 <pikhq> It's somewhat odd to find out that my high school Japanese teacher is now teaching Japanese at my college.
01:42:34 <oerjan> > [(,) n . fst . (!!1) . filter (uncurry (==) . snd) . zip [0..] $ iterate (\(t,f) -> (3*t `mod` n, 5*f `mod` n)) (1,1) | n <- [17*17]]
01:43:15 <oerjan> hm will a prime power always work if the prime does...
01:44:09 <oerjan> > [(,) n . fst . (!!1) . filter (uncurry (==) . snd) . zip [0..] $ iterate (\(t,f) -> (3*t `mod` n, 5*f `mod` n)) (1,1) | n <- [97*97]]
01:44:47 <oerjan> > [(,) n . fst . (!!1) . filter (uncurry (==) . snd) . zip [0..] $ iterate (\(t,f) -> (3*t `mod` n, 5*f `mod` n)) (1,1) | n <- [97*97*97]]
01:45:19 <oerjan> > [(,) n . fst . (!!1) . filter (uncurry (==) . snd) . zip [0..] $ iterate (\(t,f) -> (3*t `mod` n, 5*f `mod` n)) (1,1) | n <- [17^3]]
01:45:40 <oerjan> > [(,) n . fst . (!!1) . filter (uncurry (==) . snd) . zip [0..] $ iterate (\(t,f) -> (3*t `mod` n, 5*f `mod` n)) (1,1) | n <- [17^4]]
01:46:22 <oerjan> it _does_ look like it just adds one factor of the prime itself to the exponent
01:47:33 <oerjan> hm what does happen for a^p (mod p^n) gcd(a,p) = 1 in general...
01:48:52 <oerjan> is there some sense in which that's equivalent to a (mod p^(n-1))
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02:25:48 <elliott> 23:20:27: <oerjan> that's what that text hack is for, i presume
02:25:54 <elliott> oerjan: its not a hack its just part of the prettyprinting thing
02:25:58 <elliott> oerjan: it just has a terrible Show instance is all :)
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02:27:21 <elliott> 23:26:49: <oerjan> HackEgo ignores no one, everyone ignores hackego, and fungot ignores everyone
02:27:22 <fungot> elliott: do you even *do* riastradh?
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02:27:29 <elliott> oerjan: no only fungot and egobot ignore hackego
02:27:30 <fungot> elliott: xwl pasted " macro examples" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord for prime numbers.
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02:29:04 <oerjan> elliott: um "everyone" here doesn't include lambdabot
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02:29:42 <oerjan> because i started out speaking about how everyone but lambdabot has all loops cut off
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03:23:16 <quintopia> is there a reasonable way of using file-backed dynamic memory allocation? so that a data structure that grows can be mmap'd to a file?
03:23:28 <quintopia> (and the file is the size of the data structure)
03:25:39 <Ilari> Of course, there is a problem with pointers (specifically pointer base).
03:27:47 <Ilari> If you gave good chunk of continuous virtual memory space (which you do on 64-bit, even if VM space is not full 64 bits) one could put it in there.
03:29:28 <Ilari> Maybe mmap huge anonymous memory chunk (can be terabytes in size on 64-bit), and then map the file over the beginning of that.
03:30:00 <elliott> like all things to do with persistence on unix
03:30:07 <elliott> mmap works if you have a specific heap but only then
03:30:21 <pikhq> quintopia: If you want it automagic, you'll need a kernel supporting that.
03:30:28 <Ilari> And then have relative memory addresses inside the block.
03:30:33 <pikhq> As well as a language environment supporting it.
03:30:55 <elliott> quintopia: write bytes manually
03:31:12 <elliott> for instance with a growing away you could just write out each object in turn
03:31:24 <pikhq> Oh, manually? Yeah, just do the persistance yourself.
03:31:42 <quintopia> you're saying instead of allowing the memory to be used like real memory, intercept every write to it by requiring it to go through a function call?
03:32:08 <elliott> quintopia: that's the kind of question that flags up little alarms in my brain saying "fundamental misunderstanding at work here", no offence
03:32:08 <pikhq> quintopia: Uh, you seem to not grok how manually persisting state works.
03:32:15 <quintopia> or have another thread that's watching the object for changes and mirroring it?
03:32:19 <elliott> quintopia: what exactly kind of structure are you persisting
03:32:28 <elliott> its something growing, but what is it
03:32:31 <elliott> a graph, a tree, an array, what
03:32:32 <Ilari> quintopia: I'm just saying encode every pointer inside the block as a relative offset or array index.
03:32:47 <elliott> persisting a linked list doesn't make any sense at all
03:33:03 <pikhq> elliott: Sure it does.
03:33:10 <elliott> pikhq: not if its the only thing in the file
03:33:18 <elliott> yes it is as far as persistence goes quintopia
03:33:20 <quintopia> let's say it's a linked list where every node is a different length
03:33:26 <elliott> unless you want redundant pointers to the next byte
03:33:29 <pikhq> elliott: Well, yeah, there's little point to doing that.
03:33:43 <elliott> quintopia: ok let's just say its an array with variable length nodes
03:34:11 <elliott> for each element, write n, figure out how many bytes long it is, add that number to n
03:34:15 <elliott> then write out every element in turn
03:34:19 <elliott> after writing out a terminator
03:34:34 <elliott> then the numbers you wrote out at the start are file offsets for the start of each element, after the end of the element list
03:34:51 <elliott> blah blah blah you get the idea
03:35:03 <elliott> quintopia: you could prefix every single object with its length in bytes
03:35:11 <elliott> and just write them out with no delimiters or anything
03:35:15 <elliott> then skipping an element is just an fseek
03:35:39 <quintopia> okay, and let's say i make a change to this structure somewhere else, like shorten the 10th node by 5 bytes and add 12 bytes to the 17th node and delete the 18th node? can i maintain the persistence without rewriting the whole object?
03:35:58 <elliott> well sure, you fseek in, write out more bytes
03:36:05 <elliott> what are you trying to accomplish
03:36:17 <pikhq> That's definitely a good question. What's your end goal?
03:36:29 <quintopia> i want to log changes to a a particular block of memory another process is using
03:36:43 <quintopia> the process notifies me before it changes something and i log a backup of the data before it does that
03:36:44 <elliott> pikhq: yeah i hate to bug people about that because i hate when people won't answer my question because they want to know every detail about my program, but at this point i just dunno what quintopia's trying to do :P
03:36:53 <elliott> quintopia: ok well thats vague
03:36:56 <elliott> quintopia: is it just arbitrary amounts of bytes
03:36:57 <pikhq> What's your *end goal*, quintopia?
03:37:00 <elliott> or does it inform you about the structure somehow
03:37:28 <quintopia> pikhq: lightwieght recoverable transactional virtual memory
03:38:02 <quintopia> elliott: it tells me which segment it's modifying, at which offset, and how many contiguous bytes
03:38:13 <quintopia> i can't. i have to roll my own. it's an assignment.
03:38:18 <elliott> it was a joke at doesn't even exist
03:38:22 <elliott> quintopia: why cant you just mmap a single file for each segment
03:38:28 <elliott> are there like thousands of segments simultaneously
03:39:10 <quintopia> i just need a persistent log to record the changes to those things now, so i can roll back the changes if the program crashes before the transaction completes
03:39:17 <elliott> basically youre trying to reinvent something that the filesystem's doing for you imo
03:39:20 <elliott> quintopia: what are yous toring in the log
03:39:31 <pikhq> quintopia: If you're already mmap'ing, the kernel is *already* persisting your state.
03:39:48 <elliott> pikhq: thats obviously not what he means :P
03:39:51 <quintopia> i want to store the minimum data necessary to restore the segment to its state at the beginning of the transaction
03:39:55 <elliott> im abandoning apostrophes btw
03:39:59 <elliott> quintopia: ok what is wrong with this plan
03:40:02 <quintopia> if nothing has changed in the segment yet, the log should contain nothing
03:40:08 <elliott> quintopia: to the byte level?
03:40:14 <elliott> how are you detecting changes
03:40:15 <pikhq> Admittedly, any transactional behavior will need to be done yourself.
03:40:38 <quintopia> the process says "I'm about to change this many bytes starting here. back them up please."
03:40:58 <elliott> quintopia: foo = mmap("start-numberofbytes"); memcpy(foo, start, numberofbytes);
03:41:41 <quintopia> that's how i plan to get the data into the log, yes
03:41:50 <elliott> quintopia: what do you need more than that
03:41:55 <elliott> quintopia: do you just need an ordering of the segments
03:42:41 <elliott> quintopia: basically i dont understand why that line i showed you isnt enough
03:42:43 <quintopia> well the log should ideally have a bunch of items of the form "this data goes at this offset in this segment" and so rolling back would just be a matter of opening the segment and copying the data back into place
03:42:50 <elliott> <elliott> quintopia: foo = mmap("start-numberofbytes"); memcpy(foo, start, numberofbytes);
03:42:59 <elliott> you can just list the directory
03:43:04 <elliott> parse the filename to get the segment info
03:43:19 <elliott> its not the most "elegant" thing ever but its easier than maintaining your own file
03:43:20 <quintopia> you're saying the log will just be a buttload of different files
03:43:34 <elliott> i mean unless youre going to have millions of segments modified in one second
03:43:40 <elliott> filesystems are pretty fast
03:43:47 <elliott> easier than rolling your own
03:44:01 <quintopia> this doesn't sound so daunting now
03:44:01 <pikhq> And short-lived files won't get written to disk anyways.
03:44:52 <elliott> quintopia: actually your assignment sounds pretty awesome, i'm pretty sure you could do orthogonal persistence with it
03:45:03 <elliott> but it's the same kind of thing
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03:50:18 <Ilari> crystal-cola: Testing factors of k: 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 47, 53, 59, 61, 67, 71, 73, 79, 83, 89, ... can't appear, 17, 97, ... can.
03:50:36 <elliott> Ilari: is this the same thing you've been trying to find for like a month?
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03:51:35 <Ilari> AFAIK, Those number can't/can be factors of k,
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03:53:05 * pikhq_ looks forward to having a functioning computer again.
03:55:11 <elliott> pikhq_: Isn't it your connection
03:56:54 <pikhq_> elliott: I'm currently using a shared, P4 piece of shit.
03:57:15 <pikhq_> My new power supply should show up on Tuesday.
03:59:42 <Ilari> crystal-cola: Basically, a prime factor can appear in k only if the order of 5*3^-1 mod p consists of only factors of 2 and prime factors that can appear in k.
04:00:23 <crystal-cola> really!! That sounds like something we might be able to completely classify
04:00:40 <crystal-cola> I remember how awkward that thing is because it depends on p
04:01:34 <Ilari> If it comes to actually computing it, 3^-1 isn't so bad. But I agree it is nasty in actual proofs.
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04:04:57 <Ilari> Well, if p == 1 (mod 3), then 3^-1 mod p = (2p + 1) / 3. If p == 2 (mod 3), then 3^-1 mod p = (p + 1) / 3.
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04:07:18 <Ilari> And furthermore it appears that if other prime factors than 2 appear in the order of 5*3^-1 mod p, then those are required to be in k if p appears in it.
04:07:44 <oerjan> Ilari: i asked you a question above which basically amounts to whether the order of 5*3^-1 mod p^n is always p^(n-1) times the order of 5*3^-1 mod p
04:08:16 <oerjan> because if so then the prime powers could be classified once the primes themselves are
04:09:49 <oerjan> it seemed to be right for small powers of 17 and 79
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04:11:38 <elliott> oerjan: is what Ilari's thinking on actually the same thing as its been for months
04:11:46 <elliott> ive been following the mystery with interest but total noncomprehension
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04:12:00 <oerjan> elliott: i cannot recall it being mentioned before this week or so...
04:12:19 <oerjan> in fact wasn't it crystal-cola who asked it first
04:12:22 <elliott> ok Ilari's transitioned from the man on a mission to regular mathpuzzle funguy now
04:14:40 <oerjan> it seems to me now that the classification of this amounts to finding and factorizing those 5*3^-1 orders for prime powers
04:22:05 <zzo38> Do you have any music to break phonographs by?
04:29:16 <elliott> zzo38 read this book once.
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04:30:48 <Ilari> Okay, if order of 5*3^-1 mod p is 2^r*s, and s has solutions, then s*p also has solutions.
04:34:15 <oerjan> Ilari: n is a solution iff for every prime power factor p^i of n, the order of 5*3^-1 mod p^i divides p.
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04:34:29 <oerjan> no need to single out powers of 2 there
04:34:49 <pikhq_> zzo38: No, but I could find you some music to invade Poland by.
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04:35:46 <oerjan> erm and n is not divisible by 3 or 5.
04:36:05 <oerjan> ...i guess that's implied by the existence of the order
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04:38:55 <zzo38> pikhq_: Which musics would that be?
04:44:35 <Ilari> If 5*3^-1 mod p is 2^r*s and s doesn't have solutions, then for s*p to have solutions would imply 5^(ps*2^r1)==3^(ps*2^r1) mod s. Which impiles x_5*ps*2^r1 == x_3*ps*2^r1 (mod phi(s)). But x_5*s*2^r1 != x_3*s*2^r1 (mod phi(s)), thus x_5*ps*2^r1 != x_3*ps*2^r1 (mod phi(s)), and s*p is not an solution.
04:45:16 <Ilari> This would actually imply the stronger form of that statement about dividing those factors away.
04:46:58 <oerjan> Ilari: um are you even reading what i'm saying?
04:47:30 <elliott> it's entirely possible he has a write-only irc client
04:48:13 <elliott> oerjan: signs point to yup
04:48:50 <elliott> op me oerjan im just that cool
04:49:33 <elliott> that's not going to work is it
04:50:47 <elliott> almost as great as all the opping oerjans not doing
04:50:52 <crystal-cola> it took me a while to understand it because its 6 am :/
04:51:17 <oerjan> wait crystal-cola is in europe?
04:51:39 <elliott> what a coinseyedence it is six am in my bubble too :OOOO
04:52:02 <elliott> that never happens since the world population is seventy thousand trillion and most timezones are a few minutes off each other
04:52:45 <elliott> also my body has now got the impression that when it gets bright thats sleepytime because its retarded
04:55:20 <elliott> hey look I have EmAiL i should read that instead of sleeping
04:55:38 <elliott> because god knows the sun isnt fully up yet how could i possibly sleep if my eyes werent incapacitated by the glare
04:57:41 <elliott> good i have saved you now only i must suffer
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05:06:56 <elliott> crystal-cola: jegus go to bed already
05:08:10 <pikhq_> Man, a Newfie accent is *weird*.
05:08:33 <pikhq_> It sounds like some sort of southern English accent.
05:09:36 <pikhq_> And it's in freaking Canada.
05:12:02 <Ilari> Of course, there's some issues applying this: E.g. if there is some prime p, such that order(5*3^-1 mod p,p) = 137*2^x, then 137p isn't a valid k, but 17*137*p is.
05:12:06 <crystal-cola> you can do some algebra with them, e.g. 1/(q;q^2)=(-q^2;q)
05:13:38 <crystal-cola> does it just mean that even though 137p isn't 137m might be? (for some m containing p)
05:14:46 <Ilari> crystal-cola: Well, it actually is if m = 17p.
05:15:14 <crystal-cola> I guess that's not as simple you might wish but is a problem for something?
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05:17:25 <Ilari> crystal-cola: Mainly problem if applying those for a seaching algorithm.
05:17:59 <Ilari> crystal-cola: Ah, found such p: 1097. 137*1097 isn't a valid k, but 17*137*1097 is.
05:18:48 <Ilari> crystal-cola: Right.
05:19:56 <Ilari> crystal-cola: And if you got order(5*3^-1 mod q,q) = 137^2*2^x, the corresponding irreducable k would be 17*137^2*q
05:21:58 <Ilari> The list of pairs doesn't have such thing because it would require k above 2^32 to hit cases like that.
05:22:00 <oerjan> Ilari: i am _so_ tempted to ban you for ignoring my comments...
05:24:41 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has left.
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05:25:24 <oerjan> ...either that, or for lacking a sense of humor.
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05:39:33 <crystal-cola> it's particularly difficult because I can't do it without moving
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06:00:15 <copumpkin> crystal-cola: life is tough, but that's one of those things you just have to do yourself
06:16:29 <zzo38> I tried to make prestige class for D&D game.
06:16:39 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/options/Psychic_Binder.c
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06:51:39 <pikhq_> http://i.imgur.com/gvWZG.jpg :)
06:51:52 <pikhq_> (the text reads: "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles", BTW)
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07:01:02 <Sgeo> "I definitely agree with most of what was saidexcept that Id never, ever recommend VisualWorks. Its a piece of beautiful crap which has the feature of failing at its own pleasure :("
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13:00:14 <quintopia> someone remind if "char *segnames[numsegs]" where numsegs is a function parameter is a legal C declaration. Something in my brain is telling me that it is not legal to parameterize array declarations like that...
13:02:19 <fizzie> It's legal in C99; that's a "variable-length array" then.
13:05:58 <fizzie> (Or as a GNU extension in C89 and C++.)
13:08:12 <fizzie> There's a yet weirder a bit related GNU extension that lets you write a function declaration like "int foo(int len; char data[len][len], int len) { ... }" where the first "int len" is a "forward declaration" so that len's available for use in the first actual parameter 'data'. I don't think I've ever seen that used.
13:12:59 <quintopia> yeah i noticed some people talking about declarations like that on a forum thread
13:13:45 <quintopia> you don't have to use the semicolon if you put them in the other order i think
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13:26:10 <quintopia> fizzie: using that declaration, would the array be created on the stack in the function scope?
13:28:12 <fizzie> The function is still going to take a pointer; it's not going to actually create any arrays or pass the whole array by-value.
13:29:07 <fizzie> Oh. Well, yes, in practice. In theory all you can say is it has automatic storage duration.
13:29:14 <fizzie> A "stack"'s not required, after all.
13:30:14 <fizzie> It's much like the old-style alloca() function, except cleaner than that.
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13:32:29 <quintopia> so, basically, that array will be clobbered as soon as the function returns? guess i better put it on the heap anyway
13:32:54 <fizzie> Yes. And if you put the declaration inside a {} block, it will be freed as soon as that brace-level ends.
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13:36:37 <quintopia> what's the right way to turn a number into a string? i know snprintf can do it, but you have to know the length of the string in advance. do i actually have to manually compute that?
13:37:55 <crystal-cola> well you can just do snprintf in a for loop I think
13:38:16 <quintopia> okay thanks. i'll manually compute it
13:38:16 <fizzie> If you don't mind GNU/BSD extensions, asprintf (which allocates the resulting string) is handy. It's also possible to determine a long-enough upper bound from INT_MAX or something.
13:38:39 <quintopia> i think gnu extensions are probs fine
13:39:08 <fizzie> I'm not sure if C99 mandated the "sensible" snprintf, which you can call with length==0 and a NULL string, and it will return the number of characters it would've printed if it could've.
13:40:39 <quintopia> #define _GNU_SOURCE must be there to make gnu extensions compile?
13:41:03 <olsner> it's pretty trivial to make a buffer large enough for an int (or long), and snprtinf into it
13:41:04 <fizzie> "If n is zero, nothing is written, and s may be a null pointer. -- The snprintf function returns the number of characters that would have been written had n been sufficiently large, not counting the terminating null character, --"
13:41:21 <fizzie> So with C99 you can do the double-snprintf thing safely.
13:41:53 <olsner> microsoft's snprintf just returns -1 instead :)
13:41:58 <quintopia> yeah i just saw that thing you pasted in the man page
13:42:06 <fizzie> olsner: So did glibc's snprintf not too long ago.
13:42:36 <fizzie> "The glibc implementation of the functions snprintf() and vsnprintf() conforms to the C99 standard, that is, behaves as described above, since glibc version 2.1. Until glibc 2.0.6 they would return -1 when the output was truncated."
13:42:43 <fizzie> Well, maybe 2.1 *is* quite old now.
13:43:07 <olsner> what's the current one? 2.11?
13:43:24 <fizzie> 2.0.6 is from December 1997; 2.1.1 from May 1999; based on ftp.gnu.org file timestamps.
13:43:32 <fizzie> Latest seems to be 2.12.
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14:37:22 * ais523 tries to figure out why Update Manager is downloading at a rate of a few kb per s, when everything else seems to be going fine
14:39:18 <olsner> because the security updates aren't mirrored?
14:41:33 <ais523> aha, you think they're only up on one server at the other end and it's overloaded?
14:48:26 <quintopia> do i need to cast void * to something to be able to grab a pointer to exactly n bytes after where the pointer is pointing? like, cast to char * and then do regular pointer arithmetic?
14:49:06 <fizzie> Yes, and you need to use a char if you want to speak of bytes.
14:49:13 <olsner> yes, arithmetic on void* is undefined (but *usually* does the same thing as it would on char*)
14:49:34 <fizzie> Byte-based arithmetic on a void* is yet another GNU extension.
14:49:44 <fizzie> (Of course many others do it too.)
14:50:46 <quintopia> (void *)((char *)segbase+newoffset) points newoffset bytes past segbase, then?
14:51:34 <fizzie> Yes, sounds like it should.
14:52:03 <quintopia> all this would be unnecessary if memcpy took an offset :P
14:52:25 <fizzie> (Related trivia: GCC also allows arithmetic on function pointers; done like on a char* too.)
14:53:50 <fizzie> If you want to work on byteish pointers, you could just keep them as char*s or unsigned char*s in your code.
14:54:13 <fizzie> You can pass them to memcpy and void*-taking things without a cast, after all.
14:57:46 <quintopia> eh, the (required) API calls for them to be passed into my functions as void * so i'd have to cast either way
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15:37:25 <tswett> Is char always a byte in C?
15:54:21 <ais523> although a byte isn't always 8 bits
15:54:27 <ais523> if a char's 32 bits wide, so is a byte
15:54:35 <ais523> (this actually happens on some DSPs)
16:05:48 <quintopia> yeah, that's something i have to constantly keep in mind, because i took off the training wheels programming java, where a char is not a byte
16:08:41 <fizzie> Even some (many?) DSP archs opt to fake 8-bit bytes, despite the architecture being very word-oriented.
16:09:32 <yorick> quintopia: poor you...java :(
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16:12:51 <quintopia> yorick: i know, right? but despite sucking, it's still a joy (to me) compared to C
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16:16:40 <yorick> quintopia: ever tried c++?
16:17:18 <yorick> std::_Rb_tree<std::basic_string<char, std::char_traits<char>, std::allocator<char> >, std::pair<std::basic_string<char, std::char_traits<char>, std::allocator<char> > const, known_client>, std::_Select1st<std::pair<std::basic_string<char, std::char_traits<char>, std::allocator<char> > const, known_client> >, std::less<std::basic_string<char, std::char_traits<char>, std::allocator<char> > >, std::allocator<std::pair<std::basic_string<char, std::char_tr
16:18:52 <elliott__> yorick: that's a bit disingenuous since almost all of those are defaults that compiler messages omit nowadays
16:19:29 <yorick> elliott__: tell gprof that :)
16:19:41 <elliott__> yorick: not that I'm advocating using C++...
16:19:53 <yorick> actually gprof just told me _ZNSt8_Rb_treeISsSt4pairIKSs12known_clientESt10_Select1stIS3_ESt4lessISsESaIS3_EE10_M_insert_EPKSt18_Rb_tree_node_baseSC_RKS3_
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16:26:51 <quintopia> yorick: c++ sucks worse than c as far as i can tell
16:27:31 <elliott__> i don't see any relation to algol 68
16:28:15 <quintopia> i think there were less arguments in the design of those
16:28:42 <quintopia> i think it's the "a lot of stuff" that's important here
16:29:08 <quintopia> when a committee gets together and says "how much stuff can we wedge in here?" and everyone that has an idea gets to put it in
16:29:54 <elliott__> 00:17:47: <quintopia> hey oerjan, do you know if there is a novelty language on the wiki that is specified in such a way that it is turing-complete and capable of arbitrary output with the one exception that no program can output its own listing?
16:30:05 <elliott__> it doesn't disprove the TC implies quine theorem because it doesn't have sufficient output capabilities
16:30:31 <elliott__> so basically the language proves ~nothing
16:31:26 <elliott__> `addquote <crystal-cola> I just thought you might have meant the Ramanujan tau and I was WOAH he weilds heavy weapons
16:31:30 <HackEgo> 383) <crystal-cola> I just thought you might have meant the Ramanujan tau and I was WOAH he weilds heavy weapons
16:31:32 <ais523> it's on someone's talkpage, IIRC
16:31:57 <ais523> I know I wrote one (which could either run TC with no output, or sub-TC with output)
16:32:14 <ais523> which fulfils "turing-complete and capable of arbitrary output" rather vacuously
16:33:12 <elliott__> ais523: yep, but that isn't what "arbitrary output" means
16:33:35 <elliott__> ais523: arbitrary output means arbitrary output at an arbitrary point
16:33:41 <elliott__> just like arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point
16:33:41 <ais523> you have to be more precise if you want "output the result of an arbitrary computation", for instance
16:33:50 <elliott__> yes, it's called abbreviating things :)
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16:37:40 <quintopia> the page that oerjan linked during that discussion yesterday contained the spec of your language ais, and also the correctly stated version of the theorem
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17:09:19 <Sgeo> "Bitcoin hits $4 a coin. Bitcoin rush is back on and people are buying graphics cards by the masses to mine new coins."
17:09:40 <Sgeo> ^^not meant to construe an actual opinion
17:09:49 <Sgeo> ^^not meant to make grammatical ense
17:10:05 <Sgeo> ^^not meant to be spelled correctly
17:10:13 <monqy> I don't understand bitcoins
17:11:17 <zzo38> Are the people invented Bitcoin in the business of selling graphics cards?
17:11:37 <monqy> graphics cards give you processing power
17:11:41 <Sgeo> Not as far as we know...
17:11:43 <monqy> processing power for manufacturing bitcoins
17:12:02 <monqy> at least that's what I think is happeneing
17:13:09 <monqy> though I can see that meaning good profit from additionally selling graphics cards
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17:36:49 <elliott_> crystal-cola: You might be interested in http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Zeno.
17:57:18 <Sgeo> I've been banned from Cybertown apparently
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18:00:01 <elliott_> What really happened is that the ban servers have gotten bored from doing absolutely nothing since nineteen ninety-five.
18:00:05 <elliott_> And just started banning people at random.
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18:00:32 <elliott_> oh wow the cybertown website uses popups this is brilliant olsner
18:01:06 <elliott_> "See the new features introduced so far this year in Cybertown"
18:16:46 <Gregor> Other than clearly retarded.
18:16:53 <monqy> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e3/CT_shot.jpg quality entertainment
18:18:19 <Gregor> I love how it's one guy standing lonely and alone :P
18:18:50 <monqy> the cybertown homepage is quality too
18:19:20 <Sgeo> Well, it used to be free. It was much more active is when it was free
18:19:22 <elliott_> And one of Sgeo's endless necrophilic virtual reality obsessions.
18:19:34 <elliott_> monqy: WHAT THE DRUG COMPANIES DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW...
18:19:59 <crystal-cola> it's all Euclidean geometry, why does nobody create exotic spaces?
18:20:07 <olsner> Gregor: maybe it's single player :)
18:20:13 <Sgeo> crystal-cola, Worlds has exotic spaces
18:20:39 <Sgeo> Well, not hyperbolic or elliptical, but still.. weird
18:20:47 <Sgeo> crystal-cola, it's old. I don't know about good
18:20:48 <elliott_> crystal-cola: because it'd difficult
18:20:59 <elliott_> crystal-cola: PH wanted a non-Euclidean raytracer
18:21:05 <elliott_> crystal-cola: but the problem is that photons make no sense or something
18:21:18 <crystal-cola> http://www.sessionmagazine.com/img/nature/worlds-10-smallest-animals/worlds-10-smallest-animals07.jpg
18:21:23 <Sgeo> It uses portals to separate rooms. Mix up the portals and bam, there's weirdness
18:21:37 <Sgeo> There's a maze in Worlds where nothing makes sense
18:21:46 <Sgeo> crystal-cola, are you on Windows or can otherwise use WINE?
18:21:49 <Sgeo> I want to show you?
18:22:07 <elliott_> `addquote <crystal-cola> http://www.sessionmagazine.com/img/nature/worlds-10-smallest-animals/worlds-10-smallest-animals07.jpg <crystal-cola> worlds biggest thumb
18:22:08 <HackEgo> 384) <crystal-cola> http://www.sessionmagazine.com/img/nature/worlds-10-smallest-animals/worlds-10-smallest-animals07.jpg <crystal-cola> worlds biggest thumb
18:22:31 <elliott_> [mirrored http://ompldr.org/vOGhzZQ]
18:22:34 <Sgeo> (Note that Worlds.com is widely regarded as a patent troll)
18:23:05 <elliott_> wow holy shit the people on http://worlds.com/ look fucked up
18:24:24 <Sgeo> Note: the graphics are not as good as the page makes them seem
18:25:08 <Sgeo> Oh, and if you don't pay, you don't get 3d avatars
18:25:26 <elliott_> are you just an infinitely thin piece of cardboard
18:25:31 <Sgeo> elliott_, yes.
18:25:40 <elliott_> can people walk through you if you stand sideways
18:25:53 <Sgeo> I don't remember if avatars collide
18:26:01 <monqy> walk through everyone forever
18:26:11 <Sgeo> Oh, and there's no privacy. You can unilaterally add people to your friends list
18:26:25 <elliott_> what does that have to do with privacy
18:26:36 <monqy> what does friends list mean
18:26:51 <olsner> it's like a list, but it contains friends
18:27:12 <monqy> do friends hand out personal information
18:27:35 <Sgeo> Well, you can teleport to anyone on your friends list. You can see that they're online
18:27:50 <elliott_> crystal-cola: what an good grammer
18:27:51 <monqy> sounds like a good way to have fun
18:28:52 <Sgeo> Oh, and for official worlds, if you haven't already, the client needs to download and install them, which requires restarting the client. Worlds made by users don't have this issue
18:28:54 <crystal-cola> "Here: this is a box of numbers. It's called a matrix. Next topic!"
18:28:54 <crystal-cola> You have accurately described the aim of public education policy in the USA.
18:29:09 <Sgeo> There's a place called the Gauntlet that loads all the official worlds
18:29:15 <elliott_> Sgeo: why do you know all this
18:30:08 <elliott_> what do you mean how does it work
18:30:12 <elliott_> clients tell server what they're doing
18:30:16 <elliott_> server tells it to all the other clients
18:30:18 <crystal-cola> if I made a networked game with characters in it there would be too much lag
18:30:26 <elliott_> crystal-cola: clients usually do simple prediction
18:30:29 <elliott_> if someone's walking on a path
18:30:37 <elliott_> it'll continue showing them walking on that path
18:30:53 <elliott_> but anyway servers have to have low-latency and decent bandwidth, that's sort of the point
18:31:13 <Sgeo> Unless you're inieros
18:31:42 <zzo38> There are other thing too such as making telnet-based system, not needing as much bandwidth or processing powers as others, and no special software is needed, in addition it work on all computers
18:31:48 <elliott_> crystal-cola: Well, it's not rocket science. You figure out how to send the least information possible from the clients, and have simple client-side prediction.
18:32:01 <Sgeo> Oh, and Worlds expects you to pay for their world creation tool... but it's activated by a single line in an .ini file
18:32:39 <monqy> the question now is if they're lazy or idiotic
18:33:03 <elliott_> crystal-cola: the internet is stupid fast
18:33:05 <zzo38> monqy: Or if it is intentional for some reason
18:33:07 <Sgeo> On the plus side, they made some cool stuff
18:33:19 <Sgeo> That aforementioned non-Euclidean maze, an invisible maze
18:33:22 <Sgeo> A pretty garden
18:33:27 <elliott_> crystal-cola: we have latency to within a pretty small factor of the speed of light
18:33:38 <elliott_> crystal-cola: even the slowest connections (apart from in the US) can send a whole mebioctet a second
18:33:38 <monqy> what if I dislike mazes
18:33:49 <zzo38> monqy: Then don't play those kind of games.
18:33:49 <elliott_> crystal-cola: that's 8,388,608 bits per second
18:34:00 <elliott_> crystal-cola: what kind of game has 8,388,608 bits of state per second? none :)
18:34:50 <crystal-cola> and nobody does that so there's probably some really good games and stuff that can run on a pentagonal grid
18:35:25 <Sgeo> monqy, then come look at the pretty garden ;)
18:35:34 <elliott_> yeah come look at Sgeo's pretty garden
18:36:05 <Sgeo> Also, it's the only multiuser 3d space that I know of that has mirrors
18:36:07 <monqy> That game looks pretty aesthetically repugnant
18:36:13 <monqy> I doubt the pretty garden is pretty at all
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18:36:58 <Sgeo> Oh, ActiveWorlds has mirrors too. But they're crap.
18:37:03 <zzo38> With a telnet-based system an entire screenful of information should be at most 10000 octets (usually a lot less, though). If you want to be realistic you can add some physics stuff, but for games such as chess you should not need such things.
18:37:07 <Sgeo> Worlds mirrors are awesome
18:37:07 <elliott_> everything about all of these "games" is crap
18:37:19 <monqy> except worlds mirrors
18:37:24 <monqy> I hear they're awesome
18:37:55 <elliott_> zzo38: dude "simplicity" should not come before making the game you actually want
18:38:02 <elliott_> if someone wants to make a networked threedee game but it sounds hard
18:38:07 <elliott_> the answer is not to completely redesign the game and make it use telnet
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18:38:52 <zzo38> elliott_: Well, yes; it depends what game you are making, of course. You use different system for different games.
18:38:58 <Sgeo> Worlds' Ground-Zero is even more empty than usual
18:39:13 <elliott_> crystal-cola: it's kind of... fractal?
18:39:30 <elliott_> well sort of self-similar t least
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18:41:51 <zzo38> What should such a magic item cost? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/options/Gibbering_Mouthers_Ring.i
18:41:52 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:42:31 <zzo38> Two items are already specified the price Coloring_Ring.i Magic_Pair_Balls.i
18:43:20 <Sgeo> Be careful to install Worlds in a place where a user can write to it
18:43:26 * Sgeo glaredly glares
18:43:48 <elliott_> "glaredly gla" why this sentence
18:44:59 <crystal-cola> elliott_: You could make a nice game on a graph actually
18:45:16 <elliott_> crystal-cola: it is kind of self similar right?
18:45:46 <crystal-cola> It can't be draw in a euclidean plane with distances preserved is th problem
18:46:00 <crystal-cola> so I made the distances bigger as it gets out but you should imagine all pentagons being equal sizes
18:46:51 <elliott_> crystal-cola: that sounds awesome
18:46:51 <crystal-cola> I suppose you could take a lot of games like sokoban and just redo them on an arbitrary graph
18:49:52 <zzo38> Do you prefer StarWars or StarTrek?
18:54:16 <crystal-cola> elliott_: sokoban is really hard to design levels for
18:54:27 <crystal-cola> elliott_: Any ideas for a nice game I could graphify that wouldn't be too hard?
18:54:30 <elliott_> a said hant tha wampas nat sakaban
18:54:42 <elliott_> hant tha wampas as playad an a graph
18:54:57 <elliott_> crystal-cola: what abat tatras
18:56:44 <crystal-cola> but in tetris there is a distinguished "down" direction
18:58:43 <zzo38> Can you make 4D sokoban?
18:58:45 <Sgeo> elliott_, do you have an opinion on Smalltalk/X?
18:58:57 <elliott_> crystal-cola: make it spiiiiral
18:59:10 <elliott_> Sgeo: don't know/care/anything/really/honestly/jegus
19:01:08 <crystal-cola> zzo38: Yes you could do 4D sokoban although A 4D graph is probably difficult to display in a nice way
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19:01:25 <crystal-cola> zzo38: I am just considering arbitrary planar graphs because I can draw them easily (without any overlaps)
19:01:46 <crystal-cola> zzo38: Although I really would like better ways than projection to visualize 4D geometry
19:04:45 <olsner> was thinking about planar graphs the other day... is there anything like non-planar graphs but where even 3D is not enough to display the graph?
19:06:05 <elliott_> can you have a graph so nonplanar you can't show it in ANY number of dimensions :D
19:06:41 <olsner> if they exist, they should be called "absurd graphs" or something
19:06:54 <Sgeo> "Looks like it integrates automatically with CVS for code management--I didn't try it out
19:07:06 <Sgeo> Then again, this is a blog post from 2004
19:07:29 <elliott_> "Interesting note: Did you know that all encoders must have a decoder built-in? Because a P frame isn't the difference between the original previous frame and the original current frame. NO! It is the difference between the decoded previous frame and the original current frame. This is because the decoder doesn't have the original previous frame, only a computed approximation! Cool, right???"
19:07:46 <crystal-cola> olsner: You can embed any graph in 3D... proof: I dunno I just know it's true
19:07:57 <oerjan> elliott_: um, no, because 3d is enough to cross lines
19:08:13 <oerjan> you just need two layers
19:08:14 <elliott_> oerjan: i was dreaming while olsner was
19:08:16 <crystal-cola> olsner: Here you can just put the full symmetric n graph points randomly around a circle.. and they almost never intersect. I think that proves it
19:08:28 <zzo38> Other idea is Puzzle-Boy in 3D, possibly also having some (but not all) blocks affected by gravity
19:08:36 <oerjan> now if you pass to simplicial complexes...
19:09:10 <olsner> seems that it must be true, but I find it annoying... why does 2D have limitations, but 3D just suddenly makes *all* graphs possible?
19:09:24 <crystal-cola> olsner: I think it's because the lines between nodes are a 1D object
19:09:34 <elliott_> olsner: especially since there's an n[caret]three <-> n[caret]two bijection...
19:09:52 <crystal-cola> and as oerjan says, if you're consider triangles instead of lines then you get a similar planar/non-planar distinction except in 3D space
19:10:36 <crystal-cola> olsner: I got it. It's like if you take the real line you can cut it in half by removing a point..
19:10:39 <ais523> happy Australian mailman reminders day!
19:10:47 <crystal-cola> olsner: but if you take the plane and remove a point it doesn't cut it in half
19:11:42 <elliott_> ais523: asterisk mailman mailing list
19:12:14 <oerjan> orientability of surfaces is somewhat similar to planarity of graphs, in that way.
19:12:23 <olsner> hmm, how about the surface of a torus - are all graphs possible there because of the wrapping? iirc at least K3,3 can be embedded on a torus surface
19:13:22 <elliott_> oerjan: why does the Z[caret]three <-> Z[caret]two bijection not show that all graphs can be embedded in twodee spcae?
19:13:29 <ais523> K_7 can be embedded on a torus, but not K_8
19:13:49 <crystal-cola> By the way, 4 color theorem is for planar graphs but I think it's 7 color theorem for the torus
19:14:01 <ais523> I've submitted "fit an embedding of K_7 on a torus", together with a few other restrictions, to at least two puzzle compilations
19:14:10 <oerjan> elliott_: um because doesn't preserve anything resembling connectedness?
19:14:16 <ais523> (to be precise, you have to do it with maps not graphs, and on a 5x5 grid)
19:14:22 <ais523> elliott_: they're both called enigma
19:14:39 <elliott_> ais523: haha, the ball game and agora?
19:15:07 <ais523> scheduled for the enigma (computer game) 1.1 release, too
19:15:48 <ais523> no, it probably should be by now
19:15:50 <crystal-cola> The old civilization games were played on a torus (topologically)
19:15:53 <ais523> but dev activity's gone mostly silent
19:15:58 <elliott_> ais523: it's been years, hasn't it?
19:16:19 * ais523 updates Enigma svn repo
19:16:29 <oerjan> crystal-cola: um they wrapped from north to south pole?
19:16:37 <elliott_> ais523: I mean, since they started doing one point one
19:16:40 <ais523> yep, no changes since the Christmas advent day thing
19:16:41 <elliott_> I remember compiling it on my Mac
19:16:51 <ais523> and 1.01 came out ages ago, yes
19:16:53 <crystal-cola> but I think someone pointed out that that was ridiculous so they made it optional in later versions
19:17:13 <elliott_> ais523: is that mag-heut forum still existent/insane?
19:17:22 <ais523> although almost silent too
19:17:41 <ais523> I submit a new level there now and again
19:17:44 <elliott_> you'd probably get banned for posting too much no? :D
19:17:45 <ais523> although I'm not making them all that often
19:18:05 <ais523> here's my most recent one, which was a response to an April Fool's joke: http://www.mag-heut.net/blackball/index.php?act=ST&f=14&t=1440&s=
19:18:23 <elliott_> You do not have permission to view this topic
19:18:23 <elliott_> You are not logged in, you may log in below
19:18:25 <crystal-cola> elliott_: I don't know if you actually like my graph idea
19:18:30 <elliott_> i'd have to go through the awful registration process
19:18:42 <ais523> oh, right, I forgot that that subforum was registration-only for no reason at all
19:18:51 <ais523> direct link: http://www.mag-heut.net/blackball/levels/submits/ais52377_1.xml
19:18:56 <ais523> cheater2: I can read about 50% of it
19:19:10 <cheater2> ais523, is it the 50% that's copied 1:1 from englih
19:19:16 <elliott_> ais523: it's on some free hosting thing, isn't it?
19:19:34 <ais523> you can play that on a trunk version of Enigma
19:19:48 <ais523> it's a one-dimensional Sokoban
19:19:52 <cheater2> ais523, what other languages can you speak?
19:20:12 <ais523> because someone said Enigma was going one-dimensional as an April Fool's joke
19:20:17 <ais523> and suggested a 1D Sokoban as an example
19:20:20 <ais523> then I had to find a way to make it work
19:21:32 <elliott_> ais523: is it just a long line? :P
19:21:49 <ais523> elliott_: it has teleporters in
19:21:51 <Sgeo> eXept hates Monsanto partially due to pig breeding patents
19:21:58 <ais523> so you can actually go past the blocks
19:22:06 <Sgeo> I didn't know Monsanto had anything to do with pigs
19:22:22 <cheater2> monsanto has to do with everything
19:22:23 <Sgeo> I thought they were more plant-y.
19:22:28 <cheater2> all the food you buy in america is monsanto
19:23:28 <ais523> cheater2: if that was directed at me, it's vacuously true, I've never bought food in (the United States of) America
19:23:36 <ais523> although I have bought food in Canada, which is in America the continent
19:23:51 <elliott_> there is no American continent, is there?
19:24:02 <ais523> also, in response to your question earlier, English is the only language I speak with any real amount of proficiency
19:24:15 <ais523> I can pronounce written Hungarian pretty well, but generally have no idea what it means
19:24:24 <zzo38> How many states are there in America? (This is kind of a trick question)
19:24:27 <cheater2> ais523, you should learn a new language
19:24:28 <elliott_> asztal asztal asztal asztal asztal
19:24:41 <cheater2> ais523, it's very good for the mind
19:24:47 <ais523> zzo38: are you counting states that make up an entire country, as well as states that only make up fractions of countries?
19:24:52 <olsner> zzo38: One, the United State of America? :P
19:25:06 <ais523> cheater2: the major issue is that the language teaching in the schools in the UK is awful
19:25:13 <ais523> and doesn't actually teach the language
19:25:31 <cheater2> ais523, go to a private school?
19:25:33 <ais523> elliott_: I don't know that for certain
19:25:44 <cheater2> i've had very good luck with learning english while in poland.
19:25:46 <ais523> cheater2: well, I'm at University now, going back to school would make people look at me suspiciously
19:25:49 <cheater2> i went to the uk and i was fluent.
19:26:01 <cheater2> ais523, a language school, you frea
19:26:02 <zzo38> ais523: I have not thought of those interpretations, although that is possible. What I heard was 49 (only the United States has states and one of them is not part of the continent)
19:26:10 <ais523> cheater2: well, they don't teach Enlglish very well over here either
19:26:13 <elliott_> ok cheater conversations are great as long as you only see one side of them
19:26:19 <ais523> foreigners are often better at English than the typical Englishman
19:26:23 <elliott_> ais523: they teat Enlglish terrible
19:26:31 <ais523> cheater2: not intentionaly
19:26:32 <elliott_> MORE EVIDENCE OF OUR BROKEN SYSTEM
19:26:39 <zzo38> crystal-cola: Idea of what?
19:26:42 <ais523> although I am kind-of good at unintentional trolling, so possibly
19:27:04 <crystal-cola> zzo38: Well I was thinking it could be interesting to take a tile based game and adapt it to a planar graph
19:27:17 <elliott_> (a rare example of the singular plural)
19:28:44 <zzo38> crystal-cola: Some ideas: Puzzle-Boy, Sokoban, Tetris, Chess, ...
19:29:08 <crystal-cola> although I will find out what puzzle boy is first
19:29:22 <ais523> elliott_: I had a crazily muddled dream last night; towards the end, I was playing a variant of Hex with someone where after the first player's first turn, you could place two counters rather than one, but they had to be adjacent
19:29:23 <elliott_> crystal-cola: chip's challenge
19:29:38 <elliott_> ais523: psht, in my dreams I just argue with esr
19:29:40 <ais523> but we gave up after a while when we realised we were playing it on a square grid rather than a hexgrid, which slightly defeated the point of the game
19:29:45 <elliott_> by my dreams I mean one dream a couple of days ago
19:30:06 <olsner> hmm, I think I missed which part of that question was a trick question :P
19:30:08 <elliott_> ais523: i was right but esr walked away instead of listening to my rebuttal
19:30:54 <elliott_> ais523: he was claiming that he invented the term "hacker" as used in relation to coderfolken (<-- best word Gregor approved)
19:31:10 <elliott_> i tried to tell him about the model train stuff at mit in the fifties
19:31:16 <ais523> I think he's responsible for popularising it
19:31:26 <ais523> but didn't come up with it in the first place
19:31:28 <elliott_> lol i like how you're expecting my dream esr to be reasonable
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19:36:38 <elliott_> wonder where ph has been lately
19:36:51 <olsner> crystal-cola: hi and welcome
19:38:35 <elliott_> crystal-cola: welcome to the hoaus
19:58:41 <Sgeo> Smalltalk/X confuses me
20:00:48 <elliott_> woo i just got a new language idea
20:03:43 <elliott_> olsner: it's like prolog but not. maybe.
20:04:24 <olsner> Aha, so it's either like prolog or it isn't. Check.
20:08:14 <oerjan> olsner: no, but is logically equivalent to and, not or
20:08:23 <Sgeo> Smalltalk/X wants me to use Borland?
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20:08:55 <olsner> oerjan: "either like prolog but not or it isn't." then :P
20:09:52 <oerjan> and here i thought i was so clever, not using quote marks
20:11:37 <elliott_> crystal-cola: I think it's sort of like Prolog but done with lazy hash tables... I got the idea from a log of here
20:12:39 <elliott_> by hash table i don't really mean hash table btw
20:12:46 <elliott_> i mean a function but acting kind of like a hash table
20:13:44 <elliott_> foo X Y<-(bar X 99 Y) <-- then R<-(foo 90 R) is equal to R<-(bar 90 99 R)
20:14:07 <olsner> elliott_: no part of that line makes any sense
20:14:22 <elliott_> just watch crystal-cola will know exactly what i mean
20:15:42 <crystal-cola> a <- b ; b <- a then x <- a is an infinite loop?
20:15:57 <elliott_> crystal-cola: oh man that <-- was a comment :)
20:16:33 <elliott_> there is no <- at the top level
20:16:45 <elliott_> Name<-Expr pulls the value of Name out of Expr and results in it
20:16:48 <crystal-cola> foo X Y<-(bar X 99 Y) <-- you just did one here
20:17:07 <elliott_> Result<-(add 9 9 Result) ;; this results in 9+9
20:17:27 <elliott_> because that makes no sense at the top level
20:17:30 <elliott_> top level is declarations, not expressions
20:18:06 <elliott_> because that's not how it parses
20:18:54 <elliott_> no no it was just to confuse you ;D
20:19:17 <oerjan> > do rec { x <- [1:y]; y <- [x] }; [x]
20:19:18 <lambdabot> [[1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1...
20:19:41 <elliott_> f A<-B ;; invalid, B is not in scope
20:20:13 <elliott_> with your declaration, R<-(f R) just gives you f itself in R
20:20:19 <elliott_> (function/relation things are first-class)
20:20:20 <oerjan> > do rec { x <- [1:y, 2:y]; y <- [x] }; [x]
20:20:22 <lambdabot> [[1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1...
20:20:40 <oerjan> > map head $ do rec { x <- [1:y, 2:y]; y <- [x] }; [x]
20:21:24 <elliott_> i'm not sure how to do constructors, I think just empty relations
20:21:41 <elliott_> that means that (succ A) is true for all A
20:22:23 <elliott_> i'm not sure i have pattern matching like that
20:22:52 <elliott_> add (suc Y) X Z<-(desucc Z (R<-(add Y X)))
20:22:58 <elliott_> I suppose it could be sugar though
20:23:43 <elliott_> hmm it would be cool if I could type that zero and succ
20:24:36 <elliott_> then (succ A) is true iff A is a nat
20:25:36 <elliott_> crystal-cola: that seems redundant though
20:27:13 <elliott_> add (succ Y<-(nat Y)) X<-(nat X) R<-(desucc Z<-(add Y X) R)
20:28:18 <elliott_> crystal-cola: but sort of cool...
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20:30:49 <elliott_> crystal-cola: well i apologise :D
20:31:46 <crystal-cola> if you can only have one <- per line is it still possible to program?
20:33:43 <elliott_> crystal-cola: erm i'm allowing arbitrary :P
20:33:53 <elliott_> computations can describe on arbitrary amounts of other computation this way
20:33:57 <elliott_> it can't if you onlu allow one per line
20:34:32 <crystal-cola> could you make a syntax that doesn't use brackets
20:34:35 <elliott_> (diff) (hist) . . ACIDIC; 19:10 . . (-4) . . Zzo38 (Talk | contribs) (use ASCII quotation marks)
20:34:46 <elliott_> zzo38: it is possible that the non-ascii quotation marks are part of the language, being instructions...
20:43:04 <crystal-cola> However, if we sit back calmly and think about it, we can see there isn’t really a problem. All we need to do is define, for any type X, a type IsContr(X) representing the proposition “X is contractible,” such that when we then go on to define “X is a (-1)-type” in terms of “X is contractible,” the type IsContr(X) turns out to in fact be a (-1)-type. It’s a bit bootstrappy, but not circular or paradoxical
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20:49:08 <oerjan> elliott_: i think it's rather clear that the language is ASCII-based...
20:49:36 <elliott_> oerjan: yes but unless he has actual proof of it it's iffy to be editing someone else's spec in a way that changes semantics.
20:49:44 <elliott_> the talk page would be more appropriate surely
20:49:50 <zzo38> elliott_: I think it is clear those were mistake, although if the author of that page dislikes it he can change it back please
20:53:33 * Sgeo considers playing America's Army
20:54:06 <zzo38> However, it is possible the non-ASCII was correct, but reading that table as well as the rest of the article, it seems those are mistakes, so I changed it. The author of that article can change it back if I am incorrect (in which case, also a clarification should be specified)
20:56:06 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:57:35 <Sgeo> elliott_, why not?
20:57:43 <Sgeo> Free multiplayer FPS
20:57:56 <elliott_> Sgeo: because a terrible fps made solely to act as us army propaganda is going to be ... well ... terrible???
20:58:13 <Sgeo> What makes you think it's terrible?
20:58:30 <Sgeo> I mean, yes, it's US Army propaganda, but that doesn't reflect on the quality of the gameplay itself...
20:58:34 <elliott_> well it's sort of the same way i'd assume Kim Jong-Il's Happy Fun Time Shooting Game For Adults would be terrible.
20:58:51 <elliott_> the focus isn't to be a good popular fps game, it's to make people sign up for the army
21:00:06 <fizzie> I think I heard it was game-wise quite good, as far as these things go. (All hearsay, of course.)
21:00:21 <elliott_> (you have those in finland right)
21:02:34 <Sgeo> From what I've read on TVTropes, it's supposedly accurate in some ways. Although I don't think it will cause your computer to kill you if you die in the game
21:03:20 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
21:05:16 <fizzie> They could use the same function those *hackers* use to make computers explode. (Cf. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/07/04/hackers_can_make_your_pc/ )
21:06:29 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:14:10 <yorick> crash when kick self from rcon?
21:15:21 -!- lament has joined.
21:33:13 <Sgeo> " All known spaceships in Life travel either orthogonally (only horizontal or vertical displacement) or diagonally (equal horizontal and vertical displacement) at one of the twelve known speeds"
21:33:20 <Sgeo> Anyone want to update the wiki?
21:35:03 <Sgeo> http://conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Spaceship/Snippet
21:35:09 <Sgeo> The main article is updated
21:37:48 <Sgeo> The Register actually believed something WWN wrote?
21:43:27 -!- elliott_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:46:30 <Sgeo> "But alas, a Web search for the NCPF yielded only the North Carolina Psychological Foundation, which, as we consider it, might have a few valuable insights into this story after all... "
21:48:53 <cheater2> Sgeo, it was a troll post obviously
21:50:32 -!- elliott has joined.
21:50:35 <elliott> 21:37:48: <Sgeo> The Register actually believed something WWN wrote?
21:50:46 <elliott> Sgeo has never read the register before ever
21:52:50 <oerjan> maybe it just didn't register
21:59:16 <elliott> oerjan: wow, that binary to unary program is tiny
21:59:38 <elliott> i'm pretty convinced that /// is the most elegant esolang ever now
21:59:44 <elliott> probably the most elegant TC language, too
22:01:08 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Slashes
22:01:34 <elliott> it's TC even if only / and \ are allowed
22:02:05 <elliott> it's like thue but better basically :)
22:02:33 <elliott> I was honestly surprised when oerjan showed it TC
22:02:43 <elliott> it barely seems to do any computation at all
22:03:12 <variable> http://www.scottaaronson.com/writings/bignumbers.html --> well written explanation of Busy Beaver and related math
22:04:49 <variable> <elliott> that's a classic --> at my link?
22:05:09 <elliott> oerjan: is your conversion thing easily generalisable to bases other than binary?
22:05:20 <variable> elliott: it puts everything together nicely. I knew the stuff before - it is nice and easy to read :-)
22:06:08 <micahjohnston> so it says that there are only orthogonal or diagonal spaceships, but then it says “it is known that Life has spaceships that travel in all rational directions at arbitrarily slow speeds.”
22:06:27 <elliott> micahjohnston: former is out of date
22:06:46 <elliott> because a self-replicating knightship was constructed (insert exclamation mark here)
22:06:52 <Sgeo> Well, it could be known that something exists without having an example of it
22:06:58 <Sgeo> But we have an example of it now
22:07:18 <elliott> it only took forty years to find
22:07:25 <micahjohnston> Sgeo: yeah, taht's what I thought, although I wondered what kind of proof about Life could say that
22:07:51 <elliott> you can construct a UTM that has a constructor
22:08:01 <elliott> IIRC made only out of things that can be constructed by it
22:08:07 <elliott> so that's pretty much a proof right there
22:08:13 <elliott> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gemini
22:08:19 <elliott> Bounding box 4217807×4220191
22:15:55 <elliott> about my game of life self-replicating spaceship?
22:16:14 <copumpkin> crystal-cola: I'm just pretending to be the twss bot, sorry :)
22:17:00 <copumpkin> elliott: have you not been on the internet for the past couple of days?
22:17:09 <copumpkin> everyone's talking about the twss discovery paper
22:18:52 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: wow, that binary to unary program is tiny <-- btw unary to decimal is embedded in the deadfish interpreter; it's longer but essentially the same principle in reverse
22:19:03 <elliott> oerjan: right; can it be generalised easily?
22:20:22 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: is your conversion thing easily generalisable to bases other than binary? <-- i guess i just answered that :)
22:20:33 <elliott> i meant how easy is base ten to unary
22:24:19 <elliott> it's not a positional base
22:24:30 <elliott> obviously since binary has zero and one
22:24:47 <elliott> its great for all numbers between -0 and 0
22:25:03 <oerjan> !slashes /0/|//1/|*/2/|**//3/|***//4/|****//5/|*****//6/|******//7/|*******//8/|********//9/|**********//*|/|**********//|//100
22:25:09 <elliott> variable: rereading that article: it's really cool how values of busy beaver can "give" you theorems
22:25:42 <elliott> like it says if you have a goldbach testing machine with n states then knowing BB(n) and having a lot of time on your hands lets you decide Goldbach
22:26:24 <elliott> "This infinite hierarchy of ever more powerful machines was formalized by the logician Stephen Kleene in 1943 (although he didn’t use the term ‘super duper pooper’)."
22:26:24 <oerjan> !slashes /0/|//1/|*//2/|**//3/|***//4/|****//5/|*****//6/|******//7/|*******//8/|********//9/|**********//*|/|**********//|//100
22:26:26 <EgoBot> ****************************************************************************************************
22:26:33 <elliott> this is why Stephen Kleene is widely disowned by prominent scientists and mathematicians
22:26:46 <crystal-cola> write a program that tests if a number satisfies any algebraic relations
22:26:46 <elliott> oerjan: can you give me your /// skillz :(
22:27:02 <ais523> elliott: that was pretty obvious
22:27:03 <crystal-cola> then run it and if it takes longer than BB(progam size) you know the number is trancendental
22:27:18 <ais523> that /// program, I mean
22:27:48 <elliott> hmm how easy is it to translate L systems to ///?
22:27:53 <oerjan> elliott: the only real trick here is to note that if you have something of the form ||||*|**|*|*** you can easily swap *'s over the |'s in any direction with any multiplier you choose
22:27:59 <elliott> oerjan: new problem for you :D
22:28:05 <crystal-cola> elliott that's not just nonsense that can't be done in practice
22:28:18 <crystal-cola> although it's not with turing machine syou can do proofs like this using other machines
22:28:44 <elliott> i don't really care about the practicality of something, the method itself is interesting imo
22:29:19 <crystal-cola> :D yes but trancendence proofs is not normally considered "application"
22:29:42 <elliott> this means that golf actually has relevance
22:29:53 <elliott> the smaller you can golf a Goldbach testing TM in number of rules
22:30:03 <elliott> that seems utterly profound
22:30:10 <oerjan> elliott: what are L systems again
22:30:17 <elliott> oerjan: these things http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-system#Example_2:_Fibonacci_numbers
22:30:34 <elliott> oerjan: it's basically thue :D
22:31:00 <crystal-cola> fib is interesting because it's connected with irrational numbers
22:32:15 <crystal-cola> BABABBABABBABBABABBAB <-- this sequence of ups and alongs stays as close as possible to a line of gradiant phi
22:32:24 <oerjan> elliott: um no it's not thue, it's applying all deterministically
22:36:29 <crystal-cola> I wonder why I don't want spiders to climb on me
22:37:10 <crystal-cola> there is some spider here and I was worried it would climb on to me
22:37:40 <copumpkin> you're afraid of scaring it and having it bite you, maybe?
22:40:53 <elliott> crystal-cola: maybe you're afraid it'll crawl into your crystal cola
22:44:28 <elliott> "If we could bake bread at 20,000,000 degrees Kelvin" yum
22:46:40 <Sgeo> THAT WAS A PUN, OR A PLAY ON WORDS
22:47:10 <lambdabot> [1,1,1,1,2,1,1,3,1,1,4,1,1,5,1,1,6,1,1,7,1,1,8,1,1,9,1,1,10,1,1,11,1,1,12,1...
22:47:14 <elliott> concatenate all your mothers
22:47:15 <lambdabot> [1,0,1,1,1,1,1,2,1,1,3,1,1,4,1,1,5,1,1,6,1,1,7,1,1,8,1,1,9,1,1,10,1,1,11,1,...
22:47:18 * Sgeo was specifically acting like Death :/
22:47:29 <crystal-cola> > foldr (\x ys -> x + 1/ys) . concatMap (\n -> [1,n,1]) $ [0..100]
22:47:30 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show ([[a]] -> [a])
22:47:54 <crystal-cola> > foldr (\x ys -> x + 1/ys) 10000000 . concatMap (\n -> [1,n,1]) $ [0..100]
22:47:59 <crystal-cola> > foldr (\x ys -> x + 1/ys) 10000000 . concatMap (\n -> [1,n,1]) $ [0..1000]
22:48:23 <crystal-cola> > foldr (\x ys -> x + 1/ys) 10000000 . concatMap (\n -> [1,2*n,1]) $ [0..1000]
22:49:01 -!- Mannerisky has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:50:57 <crystal-cola> > foldr (\x ys -> x + 1/ys) 10000000 . concatMap (\n -> [1,2*n,1]) $ [0..1000] :: CReal
22:51:10 <elliott> 10000000? what a poor imitation of infinity
22:51:14 <crystal-cola> > foldr (\x ys -> x + 1/ys) 1 . concatMap (\n -> [1,2*n,1]) $ [0..100] :: Rational
22:51:17 <lambdabot> 559742388386760964326534990837201234645965641795425545200281432914515657756...
22:51:20 <crystal-cola> > foldr (\x ys -> x + 1/ys) 1 . concatMap (\n -> [1,2*n,1]) $ [0..100] :: Rational
22:51:23 <lambdabot> 559742388386760964326534990837201234645965641795425545200281432914515657756...
22:51:24 <crystal-cola> > foldr (\x ys -> x + 1/ys) 1 . concatMap (\n -> [1,2*n,1]) $ [0..10] :: Rational
22:51:35 <HackEgo> !haskell print "`echo test"
22:51:38 <elliott> > foldr (\x ys -> x + 1/ys) 99999999999999999999 . concatMap (\n -> [1,2*n,1]) $ [0..10] :: Rational
22:51:40 <lambdabot> 2362417702668199999998901872597869 % 869084904271099999999596021504969
22:51:43 <elliott> > foldr (\x ys -> x + 1/ys) 0 . concatMap (\n -> [1,2*n,1]) $ [0..10] :: Rational
22:51:45 <lambdabot> *Exception: Ratio.%: zero denominator
22:51:53 <crystal-cola> > 2362417702668199999998901872597869 / 869084904271099999999596021504969
22:51:54 <elliott> e = *Exception: Ratio. / : zero denominator
22:52:07 <crystal-cola> elliott: hehe that's cool how it's got the 9s in the middle
22:52:24 <elliott> <elliott> > foldr (\x ys -> x + 1/ys) 0 . concatMap (\n -> [1,2*n,1]) $ [0..10] :: Rational
22:52:24 <elliott> <lambdabot> *Exception: Ratio.%: zero denominator
22:52:25 <elliott> <elliott> e = *Exception: Ratio. / : zero denominator
22:52:27 <crystal-cola> > foldr (\x ys -> x + 1/ys) 999 . concatMap (\n -> [1,2*n,1]) $ [0..3] :: Rational
22:52:33 <crystal-cola> > foldr (\x ys -> x + 1/ys) 9999 . concatMap (\n -> [1,2*n,1]) $ [0..3] :: Rational
22:52:39 <crystal-cola> > foldr (\x ys -> x + 1/ys) 999999 . concatMap (\n -> [1,2*n,1]) $ [0..3] :: Rational
22:52:42 <elliott> this is continued fraction right
22:52:58 <crystal-cola> can we find an excellent approximation of e that is like
22:53:00 <elliott> i remember trying to get them working in coq
22:53:25 <crystal-cola> > foldr (\x ys -> x + 1/ys) 999999 . concatMap (\n -> [1,2*n,1]) $ [0..5] :: Rational
22:53:25 <elliott> crystal-cola: why not find out mr. feynman :D
22:53:39 <elliott> e is 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 and so on divided by 99999999 and so on
22:53:56 <elliott> > foldr (\x ys -> x + 1/ys) 999999 . concatMap (\n -> [1,2*n,1]) $ [0..] :: Rational
22:54:28 <elliott> but i only folded it a little bit :(
22:54:47 <elliott> what does the foldr argument do
22:55:39 <crystal-cola> it's the last element of the continued fraction, so it has very little effect
22:55:41 <micahjohnston> > scanl1 (+) (map (\x -> 1 / product [1..x]) [1..])
22:55:42 <lambdabot> [1.0,1.5,1.6666666666666667,1.7083333333333335,1.7166666666666668,1.7180555...
22:55:52 <elliott> crystal-cola: ah, so the ideal argument is e? :)
22:55:55 <crystal-cola> well it has a lot of effect on the ratio, but very little on the value of the number
22:55:55 <micahjohnston> > scanl1 (+) (map (\x -> 1 / product [1..x]) [1..]) !! 10
22:56:14 <Sgeo> elliott become: false.
22:56:35 <micahjohnston> > scanl1 (+) (map (\x -> 1 / product [1..x]) [0..]
22:56:35 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
22:56:42 <micahjohnston> > scanl1 (+) (map (\x -> 1 / product [1..x]) [0..])
22:56:43 <lambdabot> [1.0,2.0,2.5,2.6666666666666665,2.708333333333333,2.7166666666666663,2.7180...
22:56:51 <micahjohnston> > scanl1 (+) (map (\x -> 1 / product [1..x]) [0..]) !! 1000
22:56:53 <elliott> crystal-cola: e gets you closer to e than any other argument
22:57:33 <elliott> obviously a=one, b=c=d=zero :D
22:57:36 <crystal-cola> and you take the first 20 terms e = x ++ [rest]
22:57:56 <crystal-cola> then invert x and apply it to e to get (ae+b)/(ce+d) = [rest]
22:58:12 <crystal-cola> and e = the continued fraction x applied to (ae+b)/(ce+d)
23:00:21 <Sgeo> I want to cure Smalltalkers of the mental illness that they are the objects they are documenting.
23:02:14 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:02:40 <zzo38> How many demerits do you think typographical rivers should be worth?
23:02:54 <crystal-cola> I don't think there's anything wrong with rivers :/
23:02:55 <elliott> congratulations zzo38 as usual you have floored me
23:03:34 <zzo38> crystal-cola: Then it would be worth zero demerits.
23:04:07 <copumpkin> http://www.onion.demon.co.uk/theonion/information/baconpig/porkchart.htm
23:04:16 <elliott> there is no way anything at that url cannot be perfect
23:04:38 <elliott> "Mr. Mallet or Mr. Bolt Gun" EITHER OR
23:05:49 <zzo38> copumpkin: And it looks like, with a bowtie, even
23:06:12 <elliott> its a feature of their anatomy
23:06:32 <crystal-cola> http://maneggs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/man.jpg
23:07:00 <elliott> everyone click crystal-cola's link
23:07:13 <elliott> btw copumpkin and crystal-cola one of you are going to have to change nicks so i stop confusing you thx
23:07:43 <elliott> xfghjk,m vcxsdertyujnbvgyujn
23:07:55 <zzo38> copumpkin: The first letter is the same. But a lot of words have same letter so it should be OK to keep the nicks as they are.
23:08:14 <zzo38> But some typographers do not like rivers. But by how much? Obviously would be the good idea that any program that could check for these things would allow the user to specify the demerits (which could be zero, positive if you dislike rivers, or negative if you *want* rivers); but what I ask, is what opinions different people have.
23:08:38 <elliott> it should be worth 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 demerits
23:08:47 <elliott> i calculated that number with precision
23:09:27 <crystal-cola> > foldr (\x ys -> x + 1/ys) 777777777777 . concatMap (\n -> [1,2*n,1]) $ [0..5] :: Rational
23:09:29 <lambdabot> 440865444444521235 % 162185333333361583
23:09:40 <crystal-cola> > foldr (\x ys -> x + 1/ys) 5555555555 . concatMap (\n -> [1,2*n,1]) $ [0..5] :: Rational
23:09:42 <lambdabot> 3149038889091641 % 1158466666741255
23:09:51 <crystal-cola> > foldr (\x ys -> x + 1/ys) 2222222222222 . concatMap (\n -> [1,2*n,1]) $ [0..5] :: Rational
23:09:53 <lambdabot> 1259615555555947250 % 463386666666810763
23:09:55 <elliott> i wonder what on earth homotopy type theory actually is
23:10:12 <elliott> linked a lot on /r/dependent_types
23:10:29 <elliott> and it sure looks interesting i just don't know what the actual theory is :)
23:11:04 <elliott> In other words, an integer is either one more than a natural number, or zero, or one less than minus a natural number. (Of course, the naturals are inductively generated by 0 and successor.)
23:13:53 <elliott> crystal-cola: homo to pyty pethe ory
23:14:00 <elliott> that's how i read homotopytypetheory
23:14:07 <elliott> well ok not really but i sure don't read it as what it's meant to be
23:16:20 <elliott> ssssssssssshhhhhhh i'm trying to see if i'll magically understand everything if i read every post
23:16:26 <elliott> human contact is forbidden
23:16:29 <zzo38> I guess the demerits also depends how much other things are worth (that is, what units you are using).
23:20:04 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:20:14 <elliott> sometimes i hate the logs because people are stupid
23:20:15 <elliott> 13:28:39 <chrisdb> tusho: about the only easy way to get persistent state in Haskell is to pass your variables as arguments through all your functions. Which is damn annoying. I'm not a member of the 'global variables are always evil' brigade.
23:20:19 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:21:07 <zzo38> (We could use units where stretching by 100% is worth 1 demerit; we would need to use fractional demerits too if this is the case. In an actual computer program you would not use these units; you would use different units so that you can work with integers.)
23:25:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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23:32:23 <elliott> 13:48:49 <chrisdb> psygnisfive: I mean macs are obviously aimed at the 4 - 8 yo market segment.
23:32:23 <elliott> ok this log is just too stupid to keep reading i hope everyone in it dies off soon apart from me
23:33:08 <elliott> Unknown media type in type 'interface/x-winamp-skin'
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23:36:03 <micahjohnston> the binary-to-unary funciton on slashesis really cool
23:36:34 <micahjohnston> you can see it doubling the number of *'s as they trickle downwards in the number
23:37:02 <elliott> oerjan: can you do UNARY TO UNARY
23:37:15 <elliott> <oerjan> no it is impossible
23:37:22 <oerjan> !slashes /MAYBE/MAYBE/*******************************
23:37:23 <EgoBot> *******************************
23:37:36 <elliott> no that doesn't even do anything to the text
23:37:39 <elliott> let me show you how to do it
23:38:18 <elliott> !slashes /*/X,//,X/X,/*****
23:38:23 <elliott> !slashes /*/X,//,X/X,//,//*****
23:38:34 <elliott> !slashes /*/X,//,X/X,//,///X/*/*****
23:38:44 <elliott> how does that not terminate
23:38:45 <elliott> !slashes /*/X,//,X/X,//,///X/*/*****
23:38:48 <elliott> !slashes /*/X,//,X/X,//,//*****
23:38:57 <elliott> !slashes /*/X,//,X/X,//,///X/*/*****
23:39:46 <elliott> oerjan: WHAT IS WRONG WITH IT
23:40:15 <oerjan> the last /X/*/ will have been turned into /X/X/
23:40:39 <elliott> is there any way around that even?
23:40:58 <oerjan> single character abbreviations are tricky
23:41:42 <elliott> !slashes /:*/,*://,*/*//:/:*****
23:41:45 <elliott> !slashes /:*/,*://,*/*//://:*****
23:42:18 <elliott> !slashes /:*/,*://,*/*//://Hello:*:**eleph:**a,*n:t:*
23:42:37 <elliott> !slashes /:*/,*://,*/*//://Hello:*:**eleph:**a,*:*n:t:*
23:43:37 <elliott> oerjan: make it useful somehow :D
23:44:00 <elliott> !slashes /*/,*//,*/**/*****
23:44:09 <elliott> oerjan: btw how easy is binary->unary again?
23:44:14 <elliott> and can it be combined with unary->binary?
23:44:52 <elliott> why didn't that terminate...
23:45:21 <elliott> it's that stupid thing again
23:45:30 <elliott> i'll let oerjan write the trivial unary doubling program then :D
23:45:46 <oerjan> mind you it will be awkward if you want to iterate it with raw 0's and 1's in your representation
23:46:24 <elliott> oerjan: i just want to have a decimal doubler program :P
23:46:30 <elliott> decimal -> unary -> double -> decimal
23:46:32 <oerjan> !slashes /:*/,://,/**/:*****
23:47:30 <oerjan> as long as you don't use entirely raw 0-9 digits, that should work fine
23:47:53 <elliott> oerjan: well i want that to be the input and the output
23:47:56 <elliott> perhaps surrounded by something
23:48:04 <oerjan> the decimal -> unary conversion is the most awkward part
23:48:28 <oerjan> doing it without losing the use of 0-9
23:49:32 <elliott> you sort of have to tag every 0-9 you use in your /program/
23:49:37 <elliott> and then replace those tagged ones with special identifiers
23:49:40 <elliott> then after using 0-9, put them all back
23:49:43 <oerjan> and surrounding it by something doesn't really help when everything inside is not the same character
23:50:21 <oerjan> because then it would take a substantial loop to iterate through it
23:50:34 <oerjan> (see: my first looping counter)
23:50:46 <elliott> i just want to have raw decimal inside
23:51:03 <oerjan> well you _can_ make such a loop
23:51:08 <elliott> oerjan: hmm is ijfiwtwjssbwb IO-complete?
23:51:12 <elliott> you know the language i mean
23:51:27 <elliott> oerjan: can it do interactive?
23:52:49 <elliott> oerjan: for your next trick you should prove self-BCT TC
23:52:57 <elliott> such a pretty language ;_;
23:53:14 <elliott> oerjan: bct where program = data
23:53:15 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitwise_Cyclic_Tag#Self_BCT
23:53:37 <elliott> i should write a program to visualise that like twodee CAs
23:55:00 <elliott> oerjan: is that eek the sound of COGS WHIRRING IN YOUR HEAD :P
23:58:09 <elliott> hmm, how to implement self-BCT elegantly in Haskell
23:58:29 <elliott> If I want a list I can "advance" one element so that it can be accessed directly, but also know where the start of the list is, that's a zipper again, right?
23:58:30 <oerjan> binary -> unary is a _bit_ more plausible to do briefly, because you can substitute each of 00, 01, 10, 11
23:59:22 <oerjan> but with decimal you get 100 combinations
23:59:30 <elliott> can you actually find out the starting element with a zipper?
23:59:46 <elliott> oerjan: hmm, couldn't you generate those hundred combinations with BCT?
23:59:48 <elliott> it's self-modifying, after all
23:59:52 <elliott> you can just construct them programmatically