←2017-06 2017-07 2017-08→ ↑2017 ↑all
2017-07-01
00:11:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Magic-1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52357 * B jonas * (+4121) Created page with "'''Magic-1''' is a unique home-built microcomputer with a custom CPU. It was designed and developped mainly by Bill Buzbee. The hardware was built between 2005 and 2006, the..."
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00:14:28 <__kerbal__> Ok, Integbot is running
00:15:41 <__kerbal__> ;integ 8096373705231173873515698288105814457559349996780213465927102169635143836763371455511239714251901656919412172053510347251766358525837584663686083361012968763343440510359069137201087033274943221529093137894442823663461959335745044107344)](125)](40)](41)](40)~(?({(@()))(1)())(}(+(1)(@()))(/({(@()))(10)))~(?(@())(1)())(_(@())](+(48)(%({(@()))(10))))~(](+(37)(%({())(90)))/(1)(}()(/({())(90))))()
00:15:58 <__kerbal__> sorry, wrong channel
00:19:08 <__kerbal__> int-e: I couldn't get your Integ quine to work for some reason. Maybe I have the wrong link
00:20:04 <__kerbal__> Did you do it in the standalone interpreter? If so, a glitch may be preventing it from working
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00:34:30 <shachaf> `olist 1078
00:34:31 <HackEgo> olist 1078: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
00:35:07 <Sgeo__> Good day. New OOTS + understanding Rust well enough to do a thing I've wanted to do for years in Rust
00:41:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52358&oldid=52320 * Kerbal * (+81)
00:41:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52359&oldid=52358 * Kerbal * (+0)
00:42:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52360&oldid=52359 * Kerbal * (+0)
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00:59:02 <__kerbal__> oerjan: I object to being called a "newbie."
00:59:06 <__kerbal__> I prefer "n00b"
00:59:32 <alercah> `addquote <__kerbal> oerjan: I object to being called a "newbie."
00:59:34 <HackEgo> 1313) <__kerbal> oerjan: I object to being called a "newbie."
00:59:38 <alercah> `revert
00:59:39 <HackEgo> Done.
00:59:45 <alercah> `addquote <__kerbal> oerjan: I object to being called a "newbie." <__kerbal__> I prefer "n00b"
00:59:47 <HackEgo> 1313) <__kerbal> oerjan: I object to being called a "newbie." <__kerbal__> I prefer "n00b"
01:05:56 <oerjan> `sled quotes//1313s,l,l__,
01:05:59 <HackEgo> quotes//<Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ <Warrigal> GKennethR: he shou
01:06:07 <oerjan> `quote 1313
01:06:08 <HackEgo> 1313) <__kerbal__> oerjan: I object to being called a "newbie." <__kerbal__> I prefer "n00b"
01:06:56 <oerjan> __kerbal__: i don't generally use that style of spelling hth
01:13:20 <__kerbal__> you should
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01:25:04 <oerjan> i also have principles against claims expressed with "should" hth
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01:26:12 <shachaf> oerjan: see http://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/epistemologicalNightmare.html hth
01:28:25 <oerjan> THAT'S IRRELEPHANT
01:28:48 <shachaf> there's a discussion of the word "should" around halfway through hth
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01:30:52 <oerjan> my haziness prevents me from reading that far, especially since i've already read (at least some of) that before and find it grating.
01:35:25 <__kerbal__> That's not confusing at all
01:37:23 <__kerbal__> " Really? It doesn't even seem that it seems red to me? It sure seems like it seems like it seems red to me!"
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01:53:11 <quintopia> oerjan: do you have the same aversion to "shouldn't"?
01:57:39 <oerjan> ER
01:58:05 <oerjan> obviously.
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02:08:30 <fizzie> Just so you know, the upcoming fungot outage is due to a planned maintenance window.
02:08:31 <fungot> fizzie: you get too far as i could, but we need to get that " video games, but
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02:09:17 <fizzie> (And the quit message is because it's running through a bouncer to work around the "can't reconnect automatically" misfeature.)
02:12:42 <oerjan> same bouncer that Gregor uses, it seems.
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02:13:31 <fizzie> fungot: Are you feeling okay?
02:13:31 <fungot> fizzie: fnord i've always had a studly soundcard ( gus?) or something. :p))
02:13:37 <fizzie> I guess as okay as always.
02:15:09 <fizzie> We had a company summer party thing, two people asked about the fungot shirt again.
02:15:10 <fungot> fizzie: also lisp in general). they were the start of the isr to the right? i.e. is the eip value?
02:15:53 <shachaf> What does fungot need a soundcard for, let alone a studly one?
02:15:53 <fungot> shachaf: it would get bigger in time and attach a debugger and hack it a bit
02:16:00 <shachaf> fair enough
02:18:03 <__kerbal__> Where do you get fungot shirts?
02:18:03 <fungot> __kerbal__: it contains several esolang puzzles in it this year!
02:18:21 <__kerbal__> That didn't answer my question, by ok
02:18:24 <__kerbal__> but
02:18:28 <Hoolootwo> I would buy one
02:18:33 <ais523> you can't normally expect fungot to meaningfully answer your question
02:18:33 <fungot> ais523: your mind suddenly finds your dumb mistakes. i've never used scheme for software development and therefore know nothing about astronomy?
02:18:45 <__kerbal__> ais523: I know
02:18:52 <__kerbal__> One wishes
02:19:03 <__kerbal__> But, in all seriousness, where would you get one?
02:19:20 <ais523> there are companies who'll make arbitrary T-shirts for you, I'm sure they'd be willing to make a fungot shirt
02:19:20 <fungot> ais523: tough to find wooden shoes in portland, oregon.
02:20:00 <__kerbal__> true
02:20:02 <__kerbal__> fungot
02:20:02 <fungot> __kerbal__: you haven't seen it. i've done quite a lot of stupid in learning, the wheat/ chaff split is being able to load that. page. :p
02:21:21 <fizzie> __kerbal__: ais523: I got a free "print your own T-shirt" coupon from a thing for one of those companies, and used them.
02:23:29 <__kerbal__> ah
02:24:03 <__kerbal__> What algorithm does fungot use?
02:24:03 <fungot> __kerbal__: i only occasionally glance at c.l.s to remind myself of how they all work fine.
02:24:51 <ais523> __kerbal__: markov chains
02:25:06 <fizzie> It's got https://zem.fi/tmp/fungot_shirt_front.png printed on it, except in theory the black part is transparent, on a naturally black shirt.
02:25:06 <fungot> fizzie: hmmm... a minikanren talk but no presentations by oleg? s pages first. eh.) period when 50 of the fnord swastika and the zen ss"
02:26:48 <fizzie> Couldn't fit all of it in and keep it readable, so it's just the babbling bit.
02:27:01 <Hoolootwo> hmm, I've seen that before, what is that code?
02:27:13 <fizzie> It's just fungot.
02:27:13 <fungot> fizzie: the c you can read the logs first
02:27:44 <Hoolootwo> oh, I see
02:28:30 <__kerbal__> That's actually a really neat design
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02:34:31 <fizzie> I can definitely recommand https://rapanuiclothing.com/custom-printed-mens-t-shirts/ if you need a custom-printed shirt, the print quality was pretty nice. The process they use doesn't result in super-sharp lines, but it also doesn't look/feel like it's a sticker on top of the fabric.
02:40:15 <Hoolootwo> if I did, I'd go local
02:42:07 <fizzie> Sure, that's maybe a more relevant recommendation for the other UKers.
02:42:30 <ais523> why does a UK company have a web page ending .com? :-(
02:44:09 <fizzie> Hwy, BBC's website redirected me to a .bbc.com URL today.
02:44:24 <fizzie> s/Hwy/Hey/
02:45:49 <fizzie> Normally it sticks to bbc.co.uk but for some settings it took me to account.bbc.com or some such.
02:46:35 <fizzie> (Thought I'd do that account setup since iPlayer keeps reminding me they'll make it mandatory sooner or later.)
02:50:04 <Hoolootwo> you can have any TLD you want, if the TLD allows it
02:53:01 <fizzie> I like the conventional .ac.uk names, they're often delightfully short.
02:53:24 <fizzie> ox.ac.uk, cam.ac.uk, shef.ac.uk and so on.
02:54:39 <fizzie> I had a coauthor with a @dcs.shef.ac.uk email. Very retro.
02:54:41 <ais523> my workplace was bham.ac.uk for ages
02:54:50 <ais523> but they decided to change to birmingham.ac.uk for some reason
02:54:56 <ais523> email is still bham.ac.uk, though, thankfully
02:57:03 <fizzie> Ours changed from hut.fi to tkk.fi (from the English to the Finnish abbreviation), and then to aalto.fi for the merging/rebranding. Maybe that's fair, can't really meaningfully shorten "aalto".
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03:00:34 <oerjan> . o O ( they were the same for ages, and then *BHAM* they changed )
03:01:27 <Hoolootwo> we used to have uiuc.edu but now we have illinois.edu which is annoying
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03:14:35 <zzo38> Sacrifice a permanent that is attached to ~: ~ deals damage to target creature or player equal to converted mana cost of sacrificed permanent.
03:21:26 <zzo38> It is the idea. Possibly also: You control all permanents that are attached to ~.
03:27:29 <ais523> zzo38: now I'm wondering how that second ability interacts with a Control Magic effect
03:28:05 <ais523> like, if I control a creature "You control all permanents that are attached to ~", and you cast an aura "You control enchanted creature" on it, who ends up controlling what?
03:30:40 <zzo38> It is a layer 2 effect. The effect with the earliest timestamp applies first. I think that the Aura will now be controlled by the same controller as "You control all permanents that are attached to ~" because the Aura has a later timestamp. (I don't know if there is a way using existing cards and this new one to reverse the order of the timestamps)
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09:27:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52361&oldid=52360 * Int-e * (+480) /* Quine */
09:29:26 <int-e> @tell __kerbal__ I've added the quine to the Integ page; the thing you tried was a mispaste of a 474 character quine (missing the first 80 characters) that turned out to be too long for IRC after all.
09:29:26 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
09:41:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zayne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52362&oldid=52354 * Zayne * (+118)
09:41:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zayne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52363&oldid=52362 * Zayne * (+12) /* Interpreters Made */
09:42:46 <oerjan> . o O ( you can't be Zayne, that's boily's job )
09:44:40 <int-e> that's inzayne
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09:45:47 <int-e> noitdoesntello
09:48:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[2017]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52364 * Zayne * (+767) Created page with "2017 is a programming language created by [[User:Zayne|Zayne]], loosely based off of 2014, it was made only to be used in the year 2017. If the year isn't 2017 then it will er..."
09:48:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[2014]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52365&oldid=41562 * Zayne * (+23)
09:48:51 <oerjan> `2017
09:48:58 <HackEgo> Hello, world!
09:49:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[2017]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52366&oldid=52364 * Zayne * (+6)
09:50:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zayne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52367&oldid=52363 * Zayne * (+60)
09:50:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[2017]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52368&oldid=52366 * Zayne * (+2)
09:51:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[2017]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52369&oldid=52368 * Zayne * (+0) /* See Also */
09:51:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[2014]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52370&oldid=52365 * Zayne * (+2) /* See Also */
09:54:25 <int-e> I wonder, am I the only one who finds this wikipedia UI element confusing? http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/active_tab%3f.png
09:58:05 <oerjan> heh
09:58:37 <oerjan> i do sometimes use that to go to the current revision from an old one.
09:58:57 <Cale> int-e: It's weird when you consider it alongside the other tabstrip to the right
09:59:07 <oerjan> or from an edit page, or the like
10:00:21 <int-e> I do use it to get to the current page, but it takes me a conscious effort to recall that even though it looks like the rider of the currently displayed "tab", it really isn't.
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10:25:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hardfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52371 * Zayne * (+4354) Created page with "'''Hardfuck''' is a [[Brainfuck]] derivative created by [[User:Zayne|Zayne]] (why am I not surprised) and as the name suggests it is supposed to be harder than Brainfuck. == C..."
10:26:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zayne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52372&oldid=52367 * Zayne * (+17) /* My Esolangs (including jokes) */
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15:12:58 <__kerbal__> int-e: What version of the interpreter are you testing the quine with?
15:13:33 <__kerbal__> int-e: Let me try again
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15:17:36 <__kerbal__> Wait... I see. It's chopping off the end of the quine. Let me try the offline version
15:22:17 <__kerbal__> int-e: Ok, it works now.
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16:15:03 <zzo38> What is the address of the "2017 server"? I made up a implementation of joke program language "2017", but it should need to specify the "2017 server"; currently it just uses localhost but it should be changed to the proper address of the server.
16:15:54 <myname> obviously, it has ipv4 address 2017
16:16:31 <zzo38> Doesn't work.
16:16:52 <ais523> 2.0.1.7 is a valid IPv4 address, but I have no idea who owns it
16:17:25 <zzo38> I just tried 2017, although now I tried 2.0.1.7 and that doesn't work either.
16:17:40 <myname> too bad
16:17:56 <ais523> perhaps there isn't such a server tey?
16:17:58 <ais523> *yet
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16:18:07 <quintopia> just pick any server that returns the date and time
16:18:17 <quintopia> some NIST server maybe
16:19:24 <zzo38> What is the address of the NIST server?
16:20:25 <quintopia> 129.6.15.30
16:20:56 <zzo38> Thank you, it work
16:21:48 <quintopia> its far away from you geographically, but i think the extra time wasted is in the spirit of the language
16:22:23 <zzo38> OK
16:22:28 <__kerbal__> Are you referring to https://esolangs.org/wiki/2017 ?
16:23:20 <ais523> wow that page is horribly formatted
16:23:23 <ais523> give me a moment
16:23:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[2017]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52373&oldid=52369 * Zzo38 * (+768) Make implementation
16:23:43 <zzo38> __kerbal__: Yes
16:23:51 <__kerbal__> ah
16:25:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[2017]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52374&oldid=52373 * Ais523 * (+28) clean up the formatting a bit
16:27:45 <ais523> wow, that was an automatically resolved edit conflict
16:27:51 <ais523> how often does /that/ happen on esolangs.org?
16:28:50 <zzo38> I don't know?
16:30:10 <ais523> my guess is almost never
16:30:14 <ais523> there's a chance this was the first time ever
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18:19:05 <__kerbal__> Integ's getting a package system. I'm testing it over at #esoteric-blah
18:19:57 <__kerbal__> if anyone is interested
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18:50:36 <__kerbal__> fungot
18:50:36 <fungot> __kerbal__: or something like that, that's an 8-bit character encoding
19:09:02 <\oren\> Happy Canada Day Everyone
19:17:39 <zzo38> Can you answer these quiz of Canada Day: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/canada.day
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20:01:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Hardfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52375 * Kerbal * (+246) Created page with "I think that a subset of hardf*** (the subset not including @ and \) is almost exactly equivalent to brainf***. Therefore, hardf*** is almost undoubtedly Turing-complete. ~~~~"
20:02:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Hardfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52376&oldid=52375 * Kerbal * (+0)
20:03:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Hardfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52377&oldid=52376 * Kerbal * (+19)
20:05:15 <shachaf> something about bricks and brains
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20:27:19 <rdococ> seriously, hardfuck?
20:34:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52378&oldid=52349 * B jonas * (+29)
20:34:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52379&oldid=52351 * B jonas * (-61)
20:36:17 <zzo38> Do you know these questions?
20:37:49 <shachaf> I am not Canada.
20:38:52 <int-e> . o O ( not glorious nor free )
20:39:11 <myname> "i'm gonna make bf harder by giving it more shortcut commands!"?
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21:17:37 <rdococ> hyumans
21:17:42 <rdococ> `? hooman
21:17:45 <HackEgo> hooman? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:20:22 <fizzie> Before / after: https://zem.fi/tmp/cover.jpg
21:20:26 <fizzie> (Went for a walk.)
21:28:22 <int-e> is that a flying pig...
21:29:34 <fizzie> Yes.
21:29:40 <fizzie> An inflatable one.
21:32:20 <int-e> seems that only two of the chimneys were in use?
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22:23:39 <Taneb> fizzie, is that Battersea?
22:26:48 <fizzie> Taneb: Yep.
22:41:38 <fizzie> In case it wasn't clear, the left side is the cover of the Pink Floyd album Animals.
22:45:12 <zzo38> Now I wrote the specification for Unusenet.
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23:29:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52380&oldid=52361 * Kerbal * (-20)
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2017-07-02
00:29:03 <__kerbal__> yeah, I wasn't impressed by hardf***
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00:30:22 <__kerbal__> It's literally just bf with renamed commands, maybe a slightly altered input thing and 2 extra commands
00:31:06 <__kerbal__> I think it may be easier
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00:32:07 <__kerbal__> not harder
00:32:59 <__kerbal__> Has Zayne ever come on #esoteric?
00:35:50 <fizzie> Have to do another scheduled fungot maintenance, sorry.
00:35:50 <fungot> fizzie: i can't really give you the ' declare' stuff in 30 seconds ( this is the
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00:43:14 <fizzie> fungot: All done, I hope.
00:43:15 <fungot> fizzie: ( which is an instruction for being a bad idea anyway :) recursive descent parsing
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01:08:35 <FireFly> ^style
01:08:35 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:08:39 <FireFly> figures
01:08:58 <FireFly> ^style europarl
01:08:58 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
01:09:11 <FireFly> Good evening, mr. fungot
01:09:13 <fungot> FireFly: mr president, we want to make it clear that saddam hussein is a bloodthirsty dictator who is weak and will weaken your commission’s power as a deputy within this chamber, that we should wait for the council minutes specify that the commission will inform parliament at the moment, it is better to refrain from using it. the commission will see to it that the framework agreement because it will be difficult or even impo
01:09:41 <FireFly> That looks like a pretty direct quote
01:09:52 <FireFly> to a large part
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01:31:17 <fizzie> fungot: Should the ECJ be responsible for watching over the rights of EU nationals in the UK in the future?
01:31:18 <fungot> fizzie: i welcome the fact that if we allow this committee to adopt? will its meetings be public, as the honourable member now speaking; namely, the new work which we have not asked you not to do this we must have an accurate idea of the extent to which private interests are opposed to this project.
01:33:13 <fizzie> FireFly: I don't really have a tool to decompose these, but it is at least somewhat a composite. For example, the "saddam hussein is a bloodthirsty dictator who is weak" bit is from two different places.
01:33:36 <fizzie> Admittedly both were talking about Saddam Hussein.
01:33:36 <FireFly> ah, nice
01:34:04 <fizzie> "Saddam Hussein is a bloodthirsty dictator, a real threat to peace." & "Saddam Hussein has not been so weak for ten years or so. He is a bloodthirsty dictator who is weak and who is now incapable of attacking other countries."
01:35:23 <fizzie> Followed by a switch to something else altogether: -- your candidate is weak and will weaken your Commission’s power as a whole.
01:35:46 <FireFly> it worked out surprisingly well, heh
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01:40:52 <fizzie> Europarl has a decent hit rate. I don't know if that's some sort of a comment about politics.
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01:41:45 <fizzie> fungot: So what about that generous proposal, huh?
01:41:46 <fungot> fizzie: i am very concerned that pensioners and elderly people lived through the second part, however, is the subject of forests in the mediterranean
01:42:04 <__kerbal__> fungot: How did you feel about Brexit?
01:42:06 <fungot> __kerbal__: mr president, commissioner, do you not think that it is a step towards establishing the future european police college will be taken to put an end to the bloodshed. we believe crime must be done without any complexes of an ideological or any other european institution, should be developed in this country, there are three points but i mainly want to mention that we were deeply disappointed that it did not prove possi
01:42:28 <__kerbal__> so... fungot is pro-Brexit or pro-crime?
01:42:29 <fungot> __kerbal__: i would like to ask whether he perhaps needs an aspirin c. i should like to highlight an incident of a completely uniform system. if, however, unable to allow this, whilst shipowners who can purchase ships at far below their cost price come out on top.
01:43:00 <fizzie> Pro-ships.
01:43:27 <__kerbal__> What other styles does fungot have?
01:43:28 <fungot> __kerbal__: mr president, in the clearest terms from the commission, although any such external affairs commissioner should of course have delayed our rescue operation as we would have promised and agreed things which cannot be achieved already through regional conferences. i referred earlier, during my visit to london, there was not enough to replace those of the european union
01:43:33 <fizzie> ^style
01:43:33 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:43:47 <fizzie> Not all of them work particularly well.
01:43:52 <__kerbal__> Can I try one?
01:44:46 <fizzie> Sure, there's strong precedent in letting that particular bot spam the channel. (You can do it in privmsg, but you'll hit the at-most-four-replies-in-a-row limit pretty fast.)
01:44:58 <__kerbal__> ^style youtube
01:44:58 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
01:45:04 <__kerbal__> How are you, fungot?
01:45:04 <fungot> __kerbal__: meh shes not what you'd expect! turning a game? and how much has happened over the last clips there werent hardly any people...its fake?
01:45:10 <__kerbal__> oh, wow
01:45:21 <__kerbal__> okay...
01:45:46 * __kerbal__ sees the dark side of YouTube embodied
01:46:04 <fizzie> That one is like from a total of 3 videos (the data was collected by someone else, and crawled manually), so it can be a little samey.
01:46:13 <fizzie> At least one of them was a plane crash.
01:46:22 <fizzie> fungot: Those pilots did a great job though, right?
01:46:22 <fungot> fizzie: you asshole i was 19 when this came on!!! lol i dribbled might will be a model. first, i wouldn't even care that you actually spoke when not authorized? stfu yourself slam-mules-ass.
01:46:32 <fizzie> Well, that's very YouTube.
01:46:39 <__kerbal__> it is
01:46:45 <__kerbal__> ^style alice
01:46:45 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
01:46:49 <__kerbal__> oh, no
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01:46:59 <__kerbal__> fungot, what is a jabberwocky?
01:46:59 <fungot> __kerbal__: " but what's the good of having six legs, my dear, i turned cold to the very moment that she picked them? even real scented rushes, you know, they hadn't any feet.
01:47:41 <doesthiswork> source texts does FUNGOT use?
01:48:00 <doesthiswork> s//What
01:48:04 <fizzie> There's no canonical list. A bunch are from Project Gutenberg.
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01:48:58 <fizzie> Europarl, Enron and sms are freely available corpora. 'fisher' I sneaked out of my former university.
01:49:29 <doesthiswork> enron has a corpus?
01:49:42 <fizzie> It's the Enron email leak.
01:49:48 <__kerbal__> ^style enron
01:49:48 <fungot> Selected style: enron (subset of the Enron email dataset)
01:50:12 <doesthiswork> excellent choice
01:50:18 <fizzie> Sorry, not really a "leak", it became public as part of that one investigation.
01:50:35 <fizzie> Many of the styles didn't get enough cleaning-up and unformatting done, so they can be pretty messy.
01:50:43 <fizzie> fungot: Are you engaged in any suspicious business practices?
01:50:44 <fungot> fizzie: the value of the free world thank goodness we don?t have. swd joe richards, and above mentioned questions on the espeak site
01:50:54 <doesthiswork> do you think you could add nixen's tapes as well?
01:52:12 <fizzie> 'ct' and 'ff7' are fan-made trascripts of the corresponding games, 'nethack' is from NetHack data files, 'wp' is from the Wikipedia XML dump (1% talk page sample), the webcomics are I think mostly crawled from their wikia wikis.
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01:52:38 <doesthiswork> which webcomics?
01:52:58 <fizzie> homestuck, iwcs, pa, qwantz.
01:53:30 <fizzie> Oh, and oots.
01:55:31 <doesthiswork> google says that this is the only place irregular web comics strips gets abbreviated to iwcs
01:56:36 <fizzie> It's actually IWC-S, to distinguish it from IWC-[something else], but the other one didn't really work at all so I never installed it.
01:56:51 <fizzie> Where 'S' stands from 'script', possibly.
01:56:59 <fizzie> The 'ct' style has generated some memorable quotes, though it lost some of its personality when I fixed a bug that was biasing the probabilities and leading it to get stuck in a loop often.
01:57:11 <fizzie> ^style ct
01:57:11 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
01:57:13 <fizzie> fungot: Can that sword alone stop it?
01:57:13 <fungot> fizzie: to the northwest of this cape. he took back the medal from the frog king. and i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself!
01:57:32 <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, it's quite a sight. But can it stop it?
01:57:32 <fungot> fizzie: is the gate key okay!! get' em! 200g per night. care, and stay...healthy! my husband...he's...he's...gone... but he left me precious gifts! the seeds...and our child, it's ancient history now...!
01:57:47 <doesthiswork> nice
01:57:51 <fizzie> (It's still pretty repetitive, there's not that much content.)
01:58:08 <__kerbal__> ^style sms
01:58:08 <fungot> Selected style: sms (National University of Singapore SMS corpus, 2011-08-20)
01:58:14 <__kerbal__> fungot, how are you?
01:58:15 <fungot> __kerbal__: da i hav clas), just giveme the total value. create a contact on indyarocks.com
01:58:25 <__kerbal__> oh wow
01:58:29 <fizzie> There's a lot of SMS shorthand in that one.
01:58:34 <fizzie> fungot: how r u?
01:58:34 <fungot> fizzie: if i start sending blackberry... c u at nyt...
01:58:50 <__kerbal__> fungot is stupid
01:58:51 <fungot> __kerbal__: just in time to rehearse for the bestpresentation demo. i only ask abt dat piano class 2rw... bt girisha.)
01:59:03 <__kerbal__> It didn't react as harshly as I hoped
01:59:13 <__kerbal__> (I was just trying to get a rise out of it)
01:59:27 <__kerbal__> it's actually really cool
01:59:29 <doesthiswork> fungot wtf
01:59:30 <fungot> doesthiswork: hey in arasur:-) 2) 3) pass this to people including me. a blessing. fr. japan is say only
01:59:56 <doesthiswork> fungot pokemon sucks
01:59:56 <fungot> doesthiswork: i want to sent mesages. but u'l talk to ya. mery dant rahi? erik needs it
02:00:26 <__kerbal__> fungot bye
02:00:27 <fungot> __kerbal__: in a party in tarpon springs cuts at chap 2 lor! thank you star i see tonight second show:-)
02:00:37 <__kerbal__> That actually made some sense
02:00:42 <__kerbal__> fungot good morning
02:00:42 <fungot> __kerbal__: sorry i am in practice. be there in a minute. i go toilet first... where u? starting to become an issue... maybe i stay in xinrou house hibernate.outside wet just for me. happy to help anytime :)
02:01:00 <__kerbal__> "i go toilet first"
02:02:03 <fizzie> I don't think the majority of the people who donated to that corpus were native English speakers.
02:02:27 <shachaf> ^style
02:02:28 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms* speeches ss wp youtube
02:02:36 <shachaf> ^style qwantz
02:02:36 <fungot> Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011)
02:02:49 <shachaf> fungot: now that's how you speak english
02:02:49 <fungot> shachaf: at a speed of over eight hundred thousand things to save the city, and the skyline is dominated by billboards, ads like that burn my biscuits, pal, or go to an early gravy! wait, what the heck's going on?
02:03:30 <oerjan> (surely iwc must be crawled from the site itself, it has most meticulous transcripts)
02:03:52 <fizzie> oerjan: Yeah, it probably is.
02:04:04 <fizzie> And I think the same is true for homestuck.
02:04:40 <fizzie> I don't even have the source materials for many of these styles, since I trained a bunch of the models at the university.
02:05:18 <zzo38> I got a segmentation fault when using valgrind. Is it supposed to do that?
02:05:39 <shachaf> A segementation fault can mean a lot of things.
02:05:43 <__kerbal__> ^style iwcs
02:05:43 <fungot> Selected style: iwcs (Irregular Webcomic scripts)
02:05:55 <__kerbal__> fungot: No, I am your mother
02:05:55 <fungot> __kerbal__: how do you keep doing that?! pointing to the skeletal in some depictions, this transition can take place anywhere, and a killer taipan
02:06:05 <__kerbal__> (no D&D)
02:06:10 <__kerbal__> I guess
02:06:37 <fizzie> Probably not.
02:06:53 <__kerbal__> what is nethack?
02:07:23 <shachaf> what is Google™ Search™?
02:07:26 <fizzie> ^style nethack
02:07:26 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
02:07:27 <fizzie> fungot: Are cockatrices good to eat?
02:07:27 <fungot> fizzie: pelias: conan cried out sharply and recoiled, thrusting his companion uneasily. " its outer surface will be very pleased if you thought the wizard will give you a gentleman?
02:07:41 <shachaf> what is a grouch?
02:07:43 <doesthiswork> a game where you play a hacker trying to create a botnet
02:08:05 <fizzie> fungot: Should I zap myself with a random wand?
02:08:05 <fungot> fizzie: they say that some potions contain a ghost inside! i'm being held prisoner in a linear combination has no really scaring effect whatsoever, ( chapter epsilon), and the lord rose and went forth halting; but there were five tall figures: two standing on the peels.
02:08:26 <fizzie> Being held prisoner in a linear combination sounds plenty scary to me.
02:08:40 <fizzie> Probably something to do with the matrix of whateveritwas.
02:10:06 <shachaf> `? matrix of solidity
02:10:07 <HackEgo> matrix of solidity? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:10:12 <doesthiswork> where does linear combination appear in the corpus?
02:10:13 <__kerbal__> fizzie: is it in R2 or R3? I think I'd be ok with the latter...
02:11:05 <fizzie> doesthiswork: data.base, "s*d*g*r* cat".
02:11:22 <fizzie> "To the outside observer, the cat is indeed in a linear combination of being alive and dead, --"
02:11:31 <doesthiswork> ah
02:11:34 <shachaf> fizzie: https://cmubash.org/?1491 hth
02:12:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Hardfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52381&oldid=52377 * Zzo38 * (+216)
02:13:41 <fizzie> The "held prisoner" part came from the fortune cookie that says "Help! I'm being held prisoner in a fortune cookie factory!", which incidentally is technically counted as a false rumour.
02:14:25 <doesthiswork> how do we know that it is false
02:15:15 <fizzie> The five tall figures are Nazgûl, though in the original source material two of them weren't, in fact, standing on banana peels.
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02:20:58 <oerjan> . o O ( what about the other 3 )
02:21:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Hardfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52382&oldid=52381 * Kerbal * (+444)
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03:17:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Kerbal * uploaded "[[File:Integ-Logo.JPEG]]"
03:18:02 <shachaf> `5 w
03:18:08 <HackEgo> 1/2:hppavilion_m//hppavilion_m is the hppavilions modulo m \ compiler//A compiler (lit. “with-piler”) is one who builds piles together with someone else. \ schaf//"Schaf" is german for "sheep". There is absolutely no relation to shachaf. \ phantom_hoover//Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman, hatheist, and completely out of the loop. \ Я/
03:18:26 <shachaf> `n
03:18:27 <HackEgo> 2/2:/Я is the 9th letter of the hsilgnE alphabet
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03:34:00 <\oren\> in japan cats say "nyan" and meow means you look good
03:34:38 <shachaf> `? cats
03:34:39 <HackEgo> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
03:34:41 <shachaf> true
03:49:30 <shachaf> `5 w
03:49:36 <HackEgo> 1/3:heffalump//A heffalump is similar to a lump of sugar, but with honey instead. \ qdb//qdb is used like: `quote; `quote regexp; `quote id; `addquote ...; `delquote id; `pastequotes regexp; `pastenquotes [n]; see also quoteformat \ colour//Colour is a phenomenoun froum outeur spacue designeu
03:49:40 <shachaf> `n
03:49:41 <HackEgo> 2/3:d to drivue humanituy insanue and brinug fortuh the new age of Cthulhu. \ wumpus//Wumpus the Hunted is an early 70s action game in which the Wumpus is trapped in a dodecahedral labyrinth where it's chased by bats. It has to avoid traps and evade magical arrows that
03:49:42 <shachaf> `n
03:49:43 <HackEgo> 3/3: are guided by a nefarious AI. \ protocoal//Protocoal is a bit of a wooden pun.
03:50:05 <shachaf> `? rules of wisdom
03:50:06 <HackEgo> unless essential for the entry‘s humor, should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation
03:50:24 <shachaf> oerjan: I guess colour doesn't break the rules!
03:50:38 <shachaf> `` \? color; echo a
03:50:39 <HackEgo> Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu. \ a
03:57:11 <oerjan> `slwd color//s,$,,
03:57:13 <HackEgo> color//Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
03:57:17 <oerjan> `slwd colour//s,$,,
03:57:19 <HackEgo> colour//Colour is a phenomenoun froum outeur spacue designeud to drivue humanituy insanue and brinug fortuh the new age of Cthulhu.
03:58:18 <oerjan> `` \? color; echo a
03:58:20 <HackEgo> Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu. \ a
03:58:50 <oerjan> `` grwp -l '.*[^]$'
03:59:00 <HackEgo> brilliant \ logs \ piet \ tip \ tmp
03:59:23 <oerjan> `` \? brilliant; echo a
03:59:24 <HackEgo> B҉ͭR̲̞Iͪ͞L̡͠L̝̊I̤ͣA̍҉N̏́T̈͡ ̐̇ȉ̲s̉̐ ̸̉ḷ̂i̪̱k͉ͬḛ็ ͓̪t็ͬh̺̊e͜͢ ͏͛B̈ͅE̳̘S̰ͤTͬͧ ̰̕w̺̼o̷̓ŕ͂d̹̠ ͍͑i͚̾n̺̮ ̇͑t͗̍hͧ͌ḙ͕ ̻͜ű̖ňͤi̴͠v̸̧ḛ͔ř̭s͍͠ẻ̗ ͏̲a̮̺nͣ͟d̝ͨ ̳͗i̟͘ẗ͎ ̼̲ẘ̦i̭ͮl̢̋l̨̉ ̺͌c̑͡h
03:59:33 <oerjan> :D
04:00:04 <oerjan> `` \? logs; echo a
04:00:06 <HackEgo> I think you might mean !logs \ a
04:00:19 <shachaf> `1 \? logs; echo a
04:00:21 <HackEgo> 1/1:I think you might mean !logs \ a
04:00:26 <oerjan> `slwd logs//s,$,,
04:00:29 <HackEgo> logs//I think you might mean !logs
04:00:49 <oerjan> `` \? piet; echo a
04:00:50 <HackEgo> Piet is a really colourful programming language. \ a
04:00:54 <\oren\> why is hackego suddenly all colorful
04:01:14 <oerjan> \oren\: because we're checking for wisdoms that start color without ending it
04:01:24 <oerjan> which messes up listing several in a row
04:01:38 <\oren\> ic
04:01:55 <oerjan> `` \? tip; echo a
04:01:57 <HackEgo> A tip is [ $ ] if you're American, [ £ ] if you're British, and if you're Japanese. \ a
04:02:06 <zzo38> I think you should please get rid of the colours, with the possible exception of the entry for "color" and "colour"
04:02:10 <oerjan> `` \? tmp; echo a
04:02:11 <HackEgo> tmp/ is a directory for files that are not worth saving in HackEgo history, but which should still outlive a single command. NOTE: It interacts funnily with HackEgo's lock and re-run commit check; files can DISAPPEAR if you don't know what you're doing. Basically, don't modify files inside and outside tmp/ in the same HackEgo command. \ a
04:02:33 <shachaf> not enough <blink>
04:02:33 <oerjan> zzo38: they're essential for tip and tmp
04:02:50 <oerjan> and piet, i think.
04:03:17 <oerjan> brilliant is _supposed_ to look annoying.
04:03:25 <oerjan> but i guess logs could drop them.
04:03:34 <oerjan> !logs
04:03:43 <oerjan> it's an obsolete wisdom anyhow
04:04:24 <zzo38> Yes, keep it for piet and if brilliant is supposed to look annoying that too. Remove for the others, including tip and tmp
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04:05:08 <oerjan> it's in tmp to mark a warning. tip would be entirely meaningless without the colors.
04:05:49 <oerjan> ok maybe not _entirely_, but much less visual.
04:06:15 <shachaf> Are tips a common thing in the UK?
04:06:23 <shachaf> I was under the impression that they're much less expected.
04:06:31 <oerjan> `learn Logs: see channel topic.
04:06:34 <HackEgo> Relearned 'log': Logs: see channel topic.
04:06:36 <oerjan> oops
04:06:43 <oerjan> `before
04:06:52 <HackEgo> wisdom/log//I think you might mean !logs
04:07:01 <oerjan> oh it was right
04:07:23 <shachaf> `? logs
04:07:24 <HackEgo> I think you might mean !logs
04:07:31 <shachaf> `? log
04:07:33 <HackEgo> Logs: see channel topic.
04:07:36 <oerjan> `forget logs
04:07:38 <HackEgo> Forget what?
04:09:48 <oerjan> `` grwp -l '[^]*$'
04:09:50 <HackEgo> brilliant \ tip
04:09:58 <oerjan> hm
04:10:10 <oerjan> `` cat -v wisdom/tip
04:10:11 <HackEgo> A tip is ^C0,3[ $ ]^C if you're American, ^C12[ M-BM-# ]^C if you're British, and if you're Japanese.
04:11:06 <oerjan> `slwd tip//s, if, if,
04:11:07 <HackEgo> tip//A tip is [ $ ] if you're American, [ £ ] if you're British, and if you're Japanese.
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04:11:47 <oerjan> `slwd brilliant//s,$,,
04:11:49 <HackEgo> brilliant//B҉ͭR̲̞Iͪ͞L̡͠L̝̊I̤ͣA̍҉N̏́T̈͡ ̐̇ȉ̲s̉̐ ̸̉ḷ̂i̪̱k͉ͬḛ็ ͓̪t็ͬh̺̊e͜͢ ͏͛B̈ͅE̳̘S̰ͤTͬͧ ̰̕w̺̼o̷̓ŕ͂d̹̠ ͍͑i͚̾n̺̮ ̇͑t͗̍hͧ͌ḙ͕ ̻͜ű̖ňͤi̴͠v̸̧ḛ͔ř̭s͍͠ẻ̗ ͏̲a̮̺nͣ͟d̝ͨ ̳͗i̟͘ẗ͎ ̼̲ẘ̦i̭ͮl̢̋l̨̉ ͌
04:12:10 <oerjan> it doesn't matter because it's obviously too long, but that makes the grwp clean.
04:12:16 <oerjan> `` grwp -l '[^]*$'
04:12:17 <HackEgo> tip
04:12:37 <oerjan> oh
04:12:41 <oerjan> missed /g
04:12:52 <oerjan> `slwd tip//s, if, if,g
04:12:54 <HackEgo> tip//A tip is [ $ ] if you're American, [ £ ] if you're British, and if you're Japanese.
04:12:59 <oerjan> `` grwp -l '[^]*$'
04:13:00 <HackEgo> No output.
04:13:03 <oerjan> THAR
04:13:32 <oerjan> shachaf: now all wisdoms are `5 compliant hth
04:14:13 <oerjan> `wisdom ngevd
04:14:14 <HackEgo> ngevd//ngevd is a fake wisdom entry because having an actual infinite file in wisdom/ makes all manner of stuff bloody awkward. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼ also t​swett‼
04:15:23 <oerjan> that seems tricky to "fix"
04:15:56 <oerjan> (as in, can't spout an infinite file either)
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05:14:57 <shachaf> `5 w
05:15:03 <HackEgo> 1/2:marmite//Marmite is a hive mind of fungal microorganisms spreading throughout the supermarkets of the Commonwealth. \ erlang//Erlang has tricked people into loving global mutable variables while pretending to embrace immutability. \ mips//MIPS Is Popular in Schools. \ links//links is one of the very few HTML renderers that doesn't try to store
05:15:15 <shachaf> `n
05:15:16 <HackEgo> 2/2:a full document tree with heavyweight objects for each node just in case javascript wants to modify it later, so it's the only engine that can render those HTMLs that are automatically converted from a PDF and put each letter in a separate element. \ log//Logs: see channel topic.
05:16:11 <shachaf> `cwlprits erlang
05:16:19 <HackEgo> oerjän Sgëo
05:16:44 <shachaf> `dowg mips
05:16:51 <HackEgo> 4034:2013-11-20 <oerjän> learn MIPS Is Popular in Schools. \ 4033:2013-11-20 <boil̈y> learn MIPS Is Popular In Schools.
05:17:26 <shachaf> `slwd mips//sSchoolsSingaporeS
05:17:28 <HackEgo> mips//MIPS Is Popular in Singapore.
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05:50:37 <oerjan> `slwd mips//sPopularProhibitedP
05:50:39 <HackEgo> mips//MIPS Is Prohibited in Singapore.
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06:16:38 <shachaf> Cale: Did you invent your fancy better-than-SQL query language yet?
06:16:56 <Cale> shachaf: not yet, no
06:17:10 <shachaf> What do you think it would be like?
06:17:15 <Cale> shachaf: Though Ryan's been working on some cool stuff, and I'm excited to see how that turns out
06:17:30 <shachaf> Based on relations or something else?
06:17:46 <Cale> He's using Conal's constrained categories stuff to translate nearly arbitrary Haskell code into SQL queries
06:18:27 <shachaf> SQL is simultaneously remarkably expressive and frustratingly unexpressive.
06:18:59 <Cale> With the hope being that we can avoid our current issue of needing to write everything twice: once in Haskell to filter a bunch of Maps and once in SQL to pull stuff out of the DB
06:19:24 <shachaf> That's good, but I care about query languages in a cross-language way.
06:19:40 <shachaf> I don't think all code should be in Haskell.
06:19:59 <Cale> I only think almost all code should be in Haskell
06:20:44 <shachaf> Cale: Maybe you should go work for Target with conal and all the Haskell people there.
06:21:01 <Cale> Maybe, but Obsidian is pretty nice too
06:50:52 <Taneb> Cale, what do Obsidian do? Unless you're, like, working in an Elder Scrolls game, which is cool too I guess
06:54:36 <Cale> Taneb: Obsidian Systems -- we build web and mobile applications for various clients, entirely in Haskell, and using Reflex and Reflex-DOM.
06:57:44 <shachaf> Taneb: maybe you should work at target hth
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07:03:06 <Taneb> shachaf, does Target write any Haskell in Europe
07:03:25 <Taneb> Cale, that sounds pretty cool!
07:03:31 <shachaf> I think they have various remote employees using Haskell, including one in India?
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07:12:29 <oerjan> . o O ( is shikhin that employee )
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12:43:38 <__kerbal__> hi
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12:49:59 <boily> `w
12:50:00 <HackEgo> potatoes//You are not allowed to take potatoes to Norway without a special permit.
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13:07:21 <quintopia> helloily
13:07:46 <quintopia> did you have a good canadia day
13:07:57 <boily> quinthellopia!
13:09:08 <boily> long live the Queen, our PM (Photogenic Minister), mapoles, and plein d'affaires de même!
13:10:51 <quintopia> that idiom seems hard to translate
13:11:29 <boily> “and lots of things like that”.
13:12:14 <quintopia> oh. Canada!
13:12:21 <__kerbal__> it sounds like "lots of the affairs of memes." I didn't know that memes had things to do
13:13:04 <quintopia> google translated it as "same business"
13:13:23 <boily> __kerbello__.
13:13:41 <__kerbal__> bo-hi-ly
13:14:12 <quintopia> did u have fireworks?
13:14:33 <boily> it was quite rainy. there may have been fireworks somewhere?
13:14:40 <__kerbal__> In the US, actually
13:14:41 <quintopia> sesquicentennially?
13:14:50 <__kerbal__> We had fireworks yesterday
13:15:00 <__kerbal__> for our independence day
13:15:12 <quintopia> well good for you
13:15:21 <__kerbal__> but also apparently for canada day
13:16:09 <__kerbal__> Maybe the fireworks planners were evil Canadians trying to take over the municipal government
13:16:20 <boily> we ain't evil, eh.
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13:16:51 <__kerbal__> poutine seems like a diabolical attempt to make people obese, from what I hear
13:17:21 <shachaf> I am the very model of a photogenic minister, / I've information ominous, mysterious, and sinister,
13:18:14 <boily> __kerbal__: it's tasty, makes you happy, and best enjoyed at 3am!
13:18:17 <boily> helloochaf ♪
13:18:50 <__kerbal__> I've actually never tried it.
13:19:26 <shachaf> I don't know enough about Canadian politics to make a good Trudeau song.
13:19:59 <int-e> `? limerick
13:20:00 <HackEgo> limerick? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:20:32 <shachaf> But you can make a rhyme with "administer", and maybe also use "sinister" to refer to his political leanings.
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13:27:04 <quintopia> and fenester to describe one possible method of assassination
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13:38:43 <__kerbal__> As part of the upcoming Integ 1.3 release, Integ now features a standard library!
13:40:44 <shachaf> As a poetry form, you must know it; / You're nearly a limerick poet. / But if you are a cheater, / and don't fit the meter, / You're gonna blow it.
13:44:09 <shachaf> I guess s/you are/you're/
13:44:22 <shachaf> int-e: y/n
13:58:35 <shachaf> Could use some touch ups.
13:58:39 <shachaf> But I'm going to sleep.
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15:30:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Kerbal * uploaded "[[File:Integ-Logo1.jpeg]]"
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15:46:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52385&oldid=52380 * Kerbal * (+27)
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18:26:24 <shikhin> < oerjan> [02:12:29] . o O ( is shikhin that employee ) <- /me blinks.
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18:41:00 <* Taneb> is in Cambridge
18:41:56 * alercah is in London
18:43:07 <Taneb> That's closer to me than has previously been the case!
18:43:49 <alercah> yes!
18:44:23 <alercah> only briefly though
19:02:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FFM/FFB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52386&oldid=52215 * Enoua5 * (+2285) Added FFB examples
19:08:30 <zzo38> Do you like my design of Unusenet?
19:11:11 <zzo38> What kind of NNTP server softwares can you suggest using?
19:12:15 <zzo38> (It is possible for a NNTP server to implement both Usenet and Unusenet, because there are no namespace collisions.)
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19:27:49 <__kerbal__> wob_jonas: Integbot is on. If you want, I can should you op definitions and the new package system
19:27:55 <__kerbal__> show
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19:44:46 <wob_jonas> ) -
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20:23:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Kerbal * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Integ-Logo1.jpeg]]": Smaller
20:25:04 <Warrigal_> Cale: hey, I thought I was the one creating the fancy better-than-SQL query language. :D
20:25:13 <Warrigal_> I don't care who creates it; I just care that it be created.
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20:25:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52388&oldid=52385 * Kerbal * (+11)
20:26:45 <__kerbal__> What do you think about the logo?
20:27:30 <Warrigal_> Btw, the week of July 3 is an odd week.
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20:41:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52389&oldid=52388 * Kerbal * (+1869) Added info for 1.3
20:52:37 <\oren\> Germany scorexd
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21:43:45 <Cale> Warrigal: I'm not actually working on it actively, but it is something on my mind
21:45:40 <Cale> Warrigal: One of the main things I want is that it should be able to handle sum types nicely (especially sums of other tables in the DB).
21:46:34 <Cale> Warrigal: i.e. I want to be able to have a column which refers to a record of table A, B, or C, and we know which, and the query language should let me pattern match / case on that.
21:47:12 <shachaf> Cale: Or do you want arbitrary ADTs in your database?
21:47:58 <Cale> Arbitrary algebraic data types would be nice, but I can live without recursion if it's too hard to do efficiently.
21:48:54 <Cale> and if you can do sum types like that, then doing the non-recursive part of ADTs is doable
21:49:39 <shachaf> Do you just want least fixed points or also greatest fixed points?
21:49:57 <Cale> least
21:50:37 <Cale> Actually, if you want to go crazy, a really nice idea I had was a database whose rows were dependent telescopes
21:50:55 <Cale> So the type of each subsequent column can depend on the values of the preceding columns
21:51:03 <Cale> But that's probably not easy
21:51:16 <shachaf> As an arbitrary function of the preceding columns?
21:51:35 <Cale> Well, that's to be determined
21:55:28 <Cale> Warrigal: The other thing I really want is for applications to register a collection of queries with the DB, and whenever a transaction commits which would affect the result of a registered query, the application will receive an update with the changes.
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21:56:22 <Cale> Ideally, the DB would do a bunch of stuff as the queries were registered to optimise the task of figuring out which registered queries are affected by a given commit.
21:58:13 <Cale> But the reason I want that is that then we could use an FRP system to deal with querying the database and propagating the changes that come back to everything they influence. It would clean up our application backends a lot.
21:58:46 <shachaf> What is your application again?
21:58:57 <Cale> Several different web and mobile applications
21:58:59 <shachaf> "Software solutions custom-built to suit your needs."
21:59:23 <Cale> One is a sort of competitor to slack with a bunch of additional features
21:59:24 <shachaf> Cale: You should tell whoever is in charge of https://obsidian.systems/ that autoplaying a sound when I go on your web page is really annoying.
22:01:41 <shachaf> Well, I'll tell them myself.
22:02:18 <shachaf> Cale: I want to make a web application.
22:02:22 <shachaf> Should I do it in Haskell?
22:03:50 <zzo38> I thought a web application should be done in HTML?
22:04:42 <shachaf> I mean the server side of it.
22:04:54 <shachaf> But it might also involve JavaScript, or a language that compiles to JavaScript.
22:06:07 <Cale> shachaf: Sure.
22:06:21 <Cale> I also highly recommend checking out reflex-dom :)
22:07:46 <zzo38> O, well, there is many possibilities, including C, PHP, JavaScript, SQL, Perl, Haskell, etc. For client-side should need HTML, possibly with CSS and/or JavaScript also used if needed for this application. However, I think many thing should not need web application at all, in my opinion
22:07:56 <Cale> With reflex-dom, you don't actually need HTML :)
22:08:32 <Cale> Well, at least, not more than a stub which loads the JS code
22:08:48 <Cale> Your application (which is written in Haskell and compiled to Javascript) controls the contents of the DOM
22:09:28 <Cale> You still use HTML tags and such, but you don't necessarily render any HTML to be parsed by the browser.
22:10:15 <Cale> There is a mode of operation for that though -- so that you can render static stuff on the backend (in native code) and deliver it to the frontend to be used before the JS gets loaded.
22:10:34 <zzo38> You shouldn't do that; the server should generate all of the HTML content and sent directly to the client. This is only for content that is static to the client though; for some cases you will need dynamic content, in which case you should use a script to generate it instead. For most things though you should provide static content if possible (for some applications this won't work though).
22:10:38 <Cale> Still, you don't actually have to write HTML yourself then :)
22:10:55 <shachaf> Cale: Well, I want the content to be indexed by search engines, of course.
22:10:57 <zzo38> However, you may wish to provide not only HTML interface but also perhaps JSON interface, in order if you want to write your own front-end.
22:11:08 <Cale> Well, most of our applications are single page applications which mostly communicate with a backend via websockets.
22:11:10 <shachaf> It's not quite that much of an application that it doesn't have text to be searched.
22:11:22 <Cale> Yeah
22:12:02 <shachaf> So reflex-dom uses ghcjs?
22:12:05 <Cale> yeah
22:12:15 <shachaf> I suspect the current state of ghcjs introduces unacceptable overhead.
22:12:27 <Cale> https://github.com/reflex-frp/reflex-platform is a good way to try it
22:12:28 <shachaf> Though maybe it's gotten better since I last used it.
22:12:44 <Cale> Well, depends on what you consider to be unacceptable of course
22:13:04 <zzo38> Defining a protocol with JSON or whatever (even raw TCP connections if applicable) can be better that you can also to use other custom front end programs, even if there is also a HTML-based front-end built-in too.
22:13:37 <zzo38> (Or just use the URL for that purpose, so that you can easily access with curl)
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22:14:03 <Cale> zzo38: We mostly let template Haskell generate the JSON protocol to be used from our types -- we haven't yet really had to deal with the problem of versioning our protocols though.
22:14:49 <Cale> It *is* really nice to not have to worry about the JSON encoding and decoding being correct though.
22:15:24 <Cale> For the most part, as far as I have to care about, there are just Haskell datastructures on either side of the wire.
22:16:30 <Cale> We could just as well be using a binary format for communication, but sometimes it's nice to be able to see what was sent in Chrome's inspector -- and it hides binary websocket frames from you.
22:17:37 <zzo38> But then it makes it difficult to document the JSON being used
22:19:36 <Cale> I suppose we could write another tool which took the types in question and generated documentation for the JSON rather than an encoder and decoder.
22:20:25 <Cale> But mostly this communication is internal, and while we assume people could interfere with it, we don't really care about making that easy for stuff that's not using the generated JSON encoder.
22:30:50 <Cale> shachaf: btw, I... don't hear anything when I go to obsidian.systems.
22:31:13 <shachaf> Try it in an incognito window?
22:31:17 <Cale> shachaf: Oh, maybe it's when intercom sends that initial message
22:31:17 <shachaf> I think it's only the first time.
22:31:20 <Cale> yeah
22:31:21 <shachaf> Yes.
22:32:27 <Cale> I think there's a plan to replace this site soon enough anyway, but -- that'll probably involve some intercom integration too, so I'll be sure to mention your concern :)
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23:05:38 <Warrigal_> Aw man. I just thought of a sweet mathematical property that isn't actually true.
23:07:00 <Warrigal_> For each positive integer n, the sets A = {1..n} and B = {n+1..2n} can be put in a one-to-one correspondence such that each element of B is divisible by its corresponding element of A.
23:08:33 <Warrigal_> Seems like it might be true. After all, the product of B is always divisible by the product of A.
23:08:43 <Warrigal_> But in any case, the smallest counterexample is n = 4.
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23:09:31 <Warrigal_> Come to think of it, maybe there are only finitely many n for which it *is* true.
23:10:19 <Warrigal_> n = 1: (1,2). n = 2: (1,3), (2,4). n = 3: (1,5), (2,4), (3,6). n = 5: (1,7), (2,6), (3,9), (4,8), (5,10).
23:10:44 <Warrigal_> I think from n = 6 on, B always contains more than one prime number.
23:14:52 <myname> i doubt it is correct for anything big
23:15:02 <myname> between n and 2n, there is always a prime number
23:15:12 <myname> for which you HAVE to pick 1
23:15:23 <myname> the moment you get a second prime, you are screwed
23:15:42 <myname> oh, you went there, too
23:15:48 <myname> should've read first
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23:31:06 <fizzie> Oh, something that was a little funny -- in Edinburgh there was a man camped in front of a fancy Apple store, on a folding chair, with a sign advertising "Cheaper Apple Repairs".
23:31:14 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/apple-repairs.jpg
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23:40:27 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, yeah that's a great move
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2017-07-03
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01:47:57 <boily> `w
01:47:59 <HackEgo> monqy//monqy is no longer extant. He lives in concept, hidden, unfindable. You could ask itidus21 for details, if you find him.
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02:05:40 <oerjan> bhellongtimenoseely
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02:08:56 <__kerbal__> So, I've been wondering something. Who hosts the wiki now?
02:10:17 <boily> bonsoύafaitunboutterjan!
02:11:43 <oerjan> __kerbal__: Gregor hosts it and fizzie maintains it
02:12:18 <oerjan> it's on the same server as HackEgo (which is why we get the wiki announcements)
02:12:22 <__kerbal__> ah, ok. I knew who hosted it a few years ago but never found who hosted it now
02:12:29 <__kerbal__> Interesting
02:12:57 <__kerbal__> What became of Graue and ehird?
02:13:44 <oerjan> they stopped coming here.
02:14:33 <__kerbal__> ah
02:15:56 <boily> a dark basement likely ate them.
02:16:02 <fizzie> I guess that "why" is technically true in that being on the same server was the motivation for the announcements, but they would work across hosts with just a configuration change.
02:17:14 <oerjan> i sort of suspected that
02:18:29 <fizzie> (Making them work in a way that wouldn't permit anyone from spamming the channel by spoofing the source address would be slightly more involved.)
02:18:49 * oerjan cannot find out what "boutt*" means
02:20:22 <boily> «ça fait un boutte», with the infamous «-tte» québécois spelling. «ça fait un bout» → ”it's been a while”.
02:20:52 <boily> while fr:bout can mean en:end, en:extremity, it can also mean en:“a length”.
02:21:07 <__kerbal__> I also heard that there was a forum at one point... I guess that, from what I've read of esolang wiki history, that (A) The forum was redundant and (B) it was clunky to use?
02:21:11 <oerjan> boily: there's some evidence they're still alive.
02:21:24 <oerjan> or were recently, anyway.
02:21:37 <fizzie> __kerbal__: It was also spammy.
02:21:43 <__kerbal__> Ok, I see
02:22:06 <boily> oerjan: I don't know who Graue is.
02:22:20 <fizzie> There's still a read-only copy around, isn't there?
02:22:24 <ais523> boily: person who originally founded the wiki
02:22:25 <__kerbal__> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Graue
02:22:34 <ais523> the forum wasn't terrible to use, just nobody did, so nobody had an incentive to
02:23:00 <ais523> IIRC it used the same software 4chan did (or at least, something in the same style), which was an interesting choice
02:23:06 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal has a link to the archive.
02:23:57 <__kerbal__> You got a LOT of DVD spam
02:25:34 <__kerbal__> The history of the esolang community is really neat. I find category:shameful really amusing
02:26:00 <boily> heh :D
02:26:09 <fizzie> The mailing list(s) got real use, and were the direct predecessor of this channel.
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02:29:09 <__kerbal__> Avast is flagging some kind of threat in one of the mailing list archives
02:29:15 <__kerbal__> (the most recent one)
02:30:26 <fizzie> There may be some spam in there as well, especially for the last years.
02:30:55 <__kerbal__> There's a LOT in the most recent one
02:31:20 <fizzie> 2001/2002 are better.
02:32:03 <fizzie> Maybe we should have a 15-year celebration of some sort for #esoteric this coming December.
02:33:04 <__kerbal__> I've read about various abortive esolang design contests... I would participate in one, personally
02:33:13 <boily> maybe oerjan could meet Taneb?
02:33:16 <__kerbal__> an idea
02:33:57 <oerjan> boily: what
02:35:41 <fizzie> Maybe oerjan could meet Taneb in Greenland.
02:35:45 <fizzie> `quote greenland
02:35:46 <HackEgo> 932) <fizzie> The other day (well, the other week) my wife was annoyed with me because she had a dream where I had gotten us plane tickets into a #esoteric meet somewhere in the middle of Greenland in the winter, without asking her first. Plus she wasn't really interested in a #esoteric meet at all, let alone one in Greenland, let alone one in Gree
02:36:13 <shachaf> `2 quote greenland
02:36:15 <HackEgo> 2/2:Greenland in wintertime. (I think it's kind of cold there?)
02:39:33 <fizzie> shachaf: I'm in MTV again in August, though just for a week.
02:40:13 <shachaf> tg
02:41:31 <fizzie> @metar BGSF
02:41:32 <lambdabot> BGSF 030050Z AUTO 31014KT 9999NDV SCT060/// 04/M04 Q1010
02:41:37 <fizzie> Sounds cold.
02:41:39 <shachaf> @metar KOAK
02:41:40 <lambdabot> KOAK 030053Z 29012KT 10SM FEW008 FEW012 19/13 A2996 RMK AO2 SLP143 T01940128
02:41:41 <shachaf> @metar KSJC
02:41:42 <lambdabot> KSJC 030053Z 30010KT 10SM FEW024 23/14 A2993 RMK AO2 SLP133 T02330144
02:42:53 <boily> @metar CYUL
02:42:53 <lambdabot> CYUL 030100Z 25003KT 220V290 15SM FEW040TCU FEW080 20/18 A2983 RMK TCU1AC1 SLP104 DENSITY ALT 800FT
02:50:29 <fizzie> What's the "TCU" in "FEW040TCU FEW080”? (Total Cost of... U-something?)
02:51:09 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumulus_congestus_cloud apparently?
02:51:47 <fizzie> Oh, it's the kind of cloud.
02:52:31 <boily> Towering Cumulus.
02:52:36 <fizzie> FEW040FLUFFY
02:53:18 <boily> it's a very humid summer so far. my plants are happy.
02:53:53 <fizzie> My plantdroid dried out while I was in Scotland. :/
02:54:05 <fizzie> I keep pens in it now.
02:57:55 <boily> time for me to slumber post-modernly in an hyper-slow-motion interpretative deconstructivist expression of the inanimate self, transcending linen boundaries and reappropriation of unsuspecting pillows.
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03:18:06 <oerjan> . o O ( what's a plantdroid )
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04:47:56 <shachaf> https://www.akalin.com/bfpp
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06:04:04 <int-e> @metar lowi
06:04:04 <lambdabot> LOWI 030450Z 06004KT 9999 -RA FEW005 SCT015 BKN025 14/13 Q1024 NOSIG
06:29:26 <zzo38> To make up the new kind of forum with Unusenet perhaps. I wrote the document for it, so in order to do so, is only necessary to do what is written on there; it does not require notifying anyone at all about it.
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06:32:31 <zzo38> Did you read this document? Then you can tell me in case of anything wrong with it please.
06:37:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Triple Threat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52390&oldid=52347 * Qwertyu63 * (-34)
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06:53:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Triple Threat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52391&oldid=52390 * Qwertyu63 * (+72)
06:56:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Triple Threat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52392&oldid=52391 * Qwertyu63 * (-4)
06:56:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Triple Threat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52393&oldid=52392 * Qwertyu63 * (+0)
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07:18:29 <izabera> is there a name for this? a tree where each node can be either white, black or grey
07:18:31 <izabera> and where a white node only has white children, and a black node only has black children
07:18:56 <oerjan> apartheid hth
07:20:03 <zzo38> I don't know?
07:20:16 <oerjan> (wait, y'all are too young for this...)
07:23:08 <myname> i liked it
07:23:37 <myname> the joke, that is
07:23:55 <shachaf> Why is that sort of tree interesting?
07:24:03 <oerjan> yay
07:24:49 <int-e> . o O ( oerjan's feeling his age! )
07:25:37 <shachaf> oerjan: I think apartheid known even to youngsters.
07:25:44 <oerjan> shocking
07:26:00 <izabera> shachaf: i use a bitmap to keep track of allocated areas, and this is faster than a linear scan
07:26:20 <int-e> oh that kind of tree
07:26:21 <izabera> because if free == white, you don't have to descend into black nodes to find a free block
07:26:52 <shachaf> this "free == white" thing is not helping your case hth
07:26:59 <oerjan> word.
07:27:01 <izabera> lol
07:27:07 <myname> :D
07:27:23 <izabera> let's s/white/blue/g, s/black/yellow/g, s/grey/green/g
07:27:36 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Quad_tree_bitmap.svg ... I think they have no particular name and are described by their branching factor instead. (You could to the binary space partitioning as well)
07:28:00 <izabera> yeah that's the same thing but in 1d instead of 2d
07:28:40 <shachaf> 2^k trees are tg
07:28:47 <izabera> tg?
07:28:49 <shachaf> too good
07:29:02 <int-e> also, generically, it's a kind of sparse array
07:29:14 <izabera> i guess
07:29:41 <shachaf> Do you like hashlife?
07:29:59 <shachaf> How would you make these sorts of diagrams? http://slbkbs.org/h/1.svg
07:30:08 <int-e> izabera: anyway if you find an established name please let us know
07:30:17 <izabera> shachaf: yeah hashlife is great, especially its practical applications
07:30:30 <shachaf> What are its practical applications?
07:30:45 <izabera> thatsthejoke.gif
07:31:13 <shachaf> Is the joke that it has no practical applications?
07:31:20 <int-e> what's up with those imaginary gif images
07:32:07 <shachaf> Imaginary gif is better than actual gif
07:32:17 <shachaf> Larger color palette.
07:32:51 <int-e> I mean, what does "thatsthejoke.gif" convey that isn't conveyed by "that's the joke"?
07:33:04 <shachaf> There's a picture from the Simpsons that it's supposed to conjure, I think.
07:33:23 <shachaf> I watched the video that the picture comes from. It uses "that's the joke" in a completely different sense. It's not very funny.
07:33:27 <shachaf> Maybe that's the joke?
07:34:23 <shachaf> Oh, so what you're actually saying about this tree is that you only store the internal node rather than the entire subtree.
07:34:33 <izabera> yep
07:34:54 <shachaf> Why not just call it a tree where the leaves are black or white?
07:35:13 <izabera> ok
07:35:32 <zzo38> You can call them black white tree.
07:35:32 <shachaf> I'm confused.
07:37:20 <izabera> what's confusing?
07:44:58 <shachaf> :t confusiing
07:45:00 <lambdabot> error:
07:45:00 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: confusiing
07:45:00 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant ‘confusing’ (imported from Control.Lens)
07:45:03 <shachaf> ugh
07:45:04 <shachaf> :t confusing
07:45:06 <lambdabot> Applicative f => LensLike (Data.Functor.Day.Curried.Curried (Data.Functor.Yoneda.Yoneda f) (Data.Functor.Yoneda.Yoneda f)) s t a b -> LensLike f s t a b
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08:26:50 <zzo38> I have played GURPS game four times already, and not once has my character ever been damaged. My character's shield got hit a few times but also has never gotten damaged.
08:52:48 <shachaf> What about your character's shield's shield?
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09:10:24 <Taneb> shachaf, zzo38 goes through four of them a minute
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09:29:32 <int-e> @quote stab
09:29:32 <lambdabot> byorgey says: <edwardk> @type (^.) <lambdabot> s -> Getting a s t a b -> a <byorgey> I would not like to be getting a stab, thank you
09:29:51 <int-e> `wisdom
09:29:55 <HackEgo> emoticon//emoticon: ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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10:28:48 * oerjan realizes he's been backscrolled fo 3 hours without noticing
10:31:50 <oerjan> <shachaf> :t confusing <-- now i'm wondering what the infamous ... i m a s t a b u function was.
10:33:42 <oerjan> @quote i.m.a.s
10:33:42 <lambdabot> ddarius says: Someone made a completely non-idiomatic library/redefinings to make the code look more like ruby because, I'm assuming, they suffer from brain damage.
10:33:50 <oerjan> @quote i.m.a.s.t
10:33:50 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Sorry.
10:33:54 <oerjan> darn
10:34:11 <oerjan> @quote stab
10:34:12 <lambdabot> pjdelport says: [on qwe1234:] It must be a drag, being the sole beacon of sanity in a field where all the established researchers are unanimously insane.
10:34:27 <oerjan> @quote \<stab
10:34:28 <lambdabot> sioraiocht says: if you made a type class the same name as a type, I'd stab you in the face
10:35:05 <oerjan> i think you cannot do that, without different modules.
10:35:22 <oerjan> *+r
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16:41:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Triple Threat]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52394 * Kerbal * (+197) Created page with "You say that there are "There are a total of 11 valid commands in TT." Isn't that number actually 12, as 00 is a command? ~~~~"
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16:47:24 <shachaf> oerjan: There was no such function.
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17:41:22 <testuser> hello. is someone here ?
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17:43:59 <Hoolootwo> welp
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19:27:34 <myname> the hell
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20:16:22 <shachaf> `quote solidity
20:16:23 <HackEgo> 240) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
20:16:38 <shachaf> http://u.solidity.cc/
20:17:10 <shachaf> Did you know about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidity ?
20:17:22 <zzo38> Please to see it gopher://zzo38computer.org/0textfile/miscellaneous/unusenet tell me any comment you have of it.
20:17:31 <shachaf> treederwright was a true prophet
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20:30:06 <Mew_> Hello.
20:30:24 <shachaf> `welcome Mew_
20:30:25 <HackEgo> Mew_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
20:38:27 <FireFly> G'evening
20:43:22 <zzo38> Did you read this document?
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22:01:47 <Mew_> How long have you guys been programming?
22:02:14 <Mew_> and how did you get into it?
22:02:29 <Taneb> About 7 or 8 years, from David Morgan Mar's esolangs
22:02:34 <Taneb> (especially Piet)
22:03:39 <Mew_> I started to program in dos when I was 9, though didn't learn c++ until just this year. C# has served me well
22:04:47 <Mew_> batch, that is
22:04:49 <Taneb> I learnt Haskell shortly after finding this channel circa 2011 and I've just got a job using it \o/
22:05:17 <Mew_> Hope to be able to find a developer job after I finish UNI
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22:05:53 <rdococ> `? rdococ
22:05:54 <Taneb> My advice is have a niche skill and lots of public examples of your programming
22:05:54 <HackEgo> rdococ is apparently from Budapest, but he is actually on Mars. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom & mapoledom. He is a relative of `words.
22:06:48 <rdococ> `learn rdococ was thought to be from Budapest, then Mars, but he is actually in Airstrip One. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom & mapoledom. He is a relative of `words.
22:06:51 <HackEgo> Relearned 'rdococ': rdococ was thought to be from Budapest, then Mars, but he is actually in Airstrip One. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom & mapoledom. He is a relative of `words.
22:08:17 <shachaf> `cwlprits rdococ
22:08:24 <Taneb> rdococ, anywhere near the bit of airstrip one I've just moved to?
22:08:25 <HackEgo> rdocöc rdocöc rdocöc oerjän oerjän oerjän rdocöc rdocöc rdocöc oerjän rdocöc rdocöc oerjän
22:08:37 <shachaf> what a surprise imo
22:08:48 <rdococ> Taneb, idk for sure.
22:11:00 <rdococ> `? Taneb
22:11:01 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter whom you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, one of which is a Czech woman, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. He sometimes invents without noticing it (see: tanebventions).
22:11:17 <rdococ> Taneb, may I ask you why you moved to Airstrip One? you must be nuts.
22:19:40 <Taneb> rdococ, some of us have the ill fortune to be born here
22:21:26 <Taneb> I've just moved to Cambridge, however
22:22:20 <rdococ> Taneb, ah. I misread what you said.
22:22:31 <rdococ> I was born here too. miracle we can still use the internet.
22:23:06 <Taneb> Quite, indeed
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22:23:20 <ais523> where is airstrip one?
22:23:24 <Mew_> I live in pirateland #1
22:23:39 <Taneb> Mew_, Penzance??
22:23:48 <rdococ> It's located above the left-most regions of Eurasia.
22:23:53 <Mew_> and by that I mean digital pirateland #1
22:23:54 <Taneb> ais523, Britain a la 1984
22:24:02 <Taneb> Mew_, ...Penzance???
22:24:10 <Mew_> Sweden boi
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22:24:35 <Taneb> So, not Penzance
22:24:36 <Mew_> You'll have trouble finding someone here who hasnt pirated a movie or game
22:24:48 <Mew_> no, not Penzance
22:24:52 <Mew_> but that's a nice place
22:24:59 <FireFly> I'm trying not to pirate things :P
22:25:20 <Mew_> Same, I actually only pirate to check if its worth buying xd
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22:33:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brain-Flak]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52395&oldid=52100 * Wheatwizard * (-2) Even shorter sum of inputs
22:35:14 <fizzie> I seem to recall talking about Befunge a significant fraction of one interview, and think I got an offer.
22:35:23 <fizzie> Not sure which company this was though.
22:36:04 <rdococ> make sure it isn't in airstrip one
22:37:06 <fizzie> Logs of this channel suggest it was Nokia, where I think I mostly got the (summer) job for knowing Perl.
22:37:32 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPji43Hqyrg
22:37:34 <\oren\> ^ when u aren't allowed to play anymore minecraft today
22:44:41 <fizzie> Here's a fun UK fact: living here for two and a half years isn't long enough to turn a pay-as-you-go SIM into a monthly (£15/mo) plan SIM, at least with Three. They need three years of UK residential addresses before they can even think about considering such a risk.
22:46:28 <FireFly> o.o
22:47:40 <shachaf> No one is answering my question about "Rice's theorem for computable reals": https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/77487/decidable-properties-of-computable-reals
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22:49:58 <__kerbal__> zzo38: Is there a web viewer for gopher?
22:50:13 <__kerbal__> Do you have to download something to read pages in that protocol?
22:50:30 <ais523> gopher predates the web and has a similar format
22:50:37 <ais523> *a similar purpose
22:50:52 <ais523> Firefox used to have a gopher viewer as well as an http viewer, I'm not sure if it still does
22:51:21 <zzo38> __kerbal__: Yes, although an alternative, if you do not wish to do that, is to just change "gopher://" to "http://" and remove the 0, and then the same file is accessible over HTTP
22:51:21 <__kerbal__> Is there an online viewer?
22:51:27 <__kerbal__> oh, ok
22:51:36 <__kerbal__> thanks
22:53:18 <Warrigal_> shachaf: ooh, that's a good one.
22:55:21 <__kerbal__> zzo38: why would an airport need newsgroups?
22:55:30 <__kerbal__> Or private telephone numbers?
22:55:39 <fizzie> ais523: I think it was dropped already before they embarked on the big version numbers.
22:55:43 <__kerbal__> (It's a fascinatingly esoteric idea, by the way)
22:56:25 <ais523> I can easily imagine an airport benefitting from private telephone numbers, most big organizations do
22:56:44 <__kerbal__> Well, yes... THAT's true
22:56:57 <__kerbal__> Why would a private telephone number need a newgroup?
22:57:12 <__kerbal__> newsgroup
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22:58:52 <zzo38> The telephone numbers are not necessarily going to be private; they could have public access, and that is the point of the un0.tel.* hierarchy, in case it is necessary that that newsgroup has a central server which is accessible by telephone instead of internet. Note that Unusenet does not actually require internet, although internet will probably be the most common case anyways.
22:58:56 <ais523> OK, clearly I took the less insane reading of the ambiguous sentence by default, and given that this is #esoteric I shouldn't have done
22:59:18 <zzo38> If there is anything unclear, notify me so that I may correct it.
22:59:58 <__kerbal__> oh, so the clients would connect by telephone?
23:00:06 <__kerbal__> that's a neat idea
23:01:24 <zzo38> __kerbal__: Potentially, although they do not have to. There could be an echo on a server accessible over the internet too, although such a name is specifying that that newsgroup has a central server and that the specified way of accessing it is by telephone.
23:02:06 <__kerbal__> So, would un0.icao.* connect by airplane mail, and un0.icbm.* connect by intercontinental ballistic missile?
23:02:24 <__kerbal__> I wouldn't want to host a server using the latter protocol if so
23:02:25 <zzo38> No. In those cases, no central server is specified.
23:02:29 <__kerbal__> ok
23:03:00 <__kerbal__> Seriously, though, is icbm intended to be the location of the server?
23:03:08 <__kerbal__> physically?
23:04:35 <__kerbal__> is it just a location for the point of it?
23:04:46 <ais523> __kerbal__: the missiles wouldn't need a warhead
23:04:51 <ais523> you could just put USB sticks on them or something
23:04:59 <boily> hezzo38, his523, __kerbello__.
23:05:10 <__kerbal__> helloily
23:05:38 <Mew_> https://gyazo.com/4433433d420bd66d5014589959bf81f9
23:05:40 <zzo38> It is just a location for the point of it when it is defined, although the server may be physically located there, and you may use disks to transfer messages to/from that server if necessary, although none of these things are required; the location when defined is mainly for uniqueness.
23:05:44 <__kerbal__> ais523: Still, you're LAUNCHING ICBM'S AT SOMEONE!
23:06:04 <__kerbal__> I hope there are parachutes involved
23:06:06 <ais523> it actually strikes me as a fairly secure method of communication
23:06:18 <ais523> nobody's going to try to recover those things intact if they don't already know they're for sending data
23:06:24 <ais523> and an interception of the message is pretty obvious
23:06:27 <__kerbal__> I think they actually tried something similar
23:06:42 <__kerbal__> see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_mail
23:06:58 <Mew_> damn, need to figure out how to loop through a, well loop and get the value at the end of the loop and stick it into a variable
23:07:27 <__kerbal__> Would be really cool, just slightly dangerous
23:07:37 <zzo38> ais523: Well, yes you can do that; it is not prohibited by the specification of Unusenet (even though that isn't the intention of the un0.icbm.* hierarchy, the protocol won't stop you from doing this anyways).
23:07:39 <__kerbal__> if the parachute failed
23:08:12 <ais523> I'm actually imagining aiming at a lake or the like
23:08:19 <ais523> then you just scoop the missile out of the lake after it lands
23:08:23 <zzo38> Practicalities, dangerous like that, cost, etc, may stop you, but the protocol of Unusenet does not stop you.
23:08:38 <__kerbal__> ais523: That might be safer
23:08:42 <Mew_> or send it under the radar, and noone will know
23:08:47 <Mew_> you need no security then
23:08:51 <__kerbal__> Mew_: That works
23:09:35 <zzo38> But you cannot send a missile to that address anyways, because the address points to the past, not the future.
23:11:04 <__kerbal__> zzo38: Can't you just omit the time part in programming your missile?
23:11:23 <Mew_> just change it relative to earth rotation and shit
23:12:12 <zzo38> __kerbal__: I suppose so.
23:12:37 <__kerbal__> (I really like this idea. I'm heading to NORAD and seeing if they can loan me a test ICBM)
23:12:58 <Mew_> can I come with you? but you have to ring the doorbell.
23:13:03 <Mew_> I am to scared
23:14:16 <__kerbal__> Maybe we can organize a delegation to head over to NORAD and ask for missiles in the name of the esolang community
23:14:29 <__kerbal__> for the good of all of us except the ones who are dead
23:15:02 <zzo38> The name "un0.icbm.*" only indicates that it is the "missile address" hierarchy though, not necessarily that you are using actual missiles.
23:15:13 <__kerbal__> zzo38: killjoy
23:15:42 <zzo38> But like I said, the Unusenet protocol does not prohibit you from using actual missiles, either.
23:15:50 <__kerbal__> hooray!
23:16:34 <__kerbal__> Mew_: So what's your esolang?
23:17:52 <Mew_> Its brainfuck, but instead of the pointer position being saved between writes, it resets. and then you move pointer through a 80 character alphabet with + and -, it also includes a kind of ACC function that exists in asm
23:17:59 <Mew_> but its not really working properly
23:18:06 <Mew_> only the basic stuff
23:18:12 <Mew_> need to figure the looping out
23:18:35 <__kerbal__> What are the pointer commands?
23:18:51 <Mew_> +, - and .
23:19:19 <Mew_> + adds to the position of the pointer and - subtracts, then . writes the current character to a stream
23:19:26 <Mew_> and ; creates a new line
23:19:30 <__kerbal__> How do you move the data pointer if it resets itself?
23:20:05 <Mew_> well, lets say you want to write "ABC" then you would have this "+.++.+++."
23:20:27 <__kerbal__> ah
23:20:43 <Mew_> instead of what brainfuck would have
23:20:46 <__kerbal__> so + and - are increment and decrement commands
23:20:50 <Mew_> yep
23:20:56 <ais523> does this actually have a tape? or are you just incrementing a single value?
23:21:06 <__kerbal__> ais523: That's exactly what I'm wondering
23:21:17 <Mew_> yes, it does
23:21:25 <Mew_> and adding or subtracting scrolls the tape
23:21:45 <__kerbal__> so, what would the tape look like after the ABC code?
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23:23:37 <Mew_> Well, ok so it doesnt really have a tape, but for that specific character it does. so after you have written (lets say e) which is "+++++." then it would reset, so if you want an F now you would have to do "++++++."
23:24:08 <Mew_> I am not really sure what you mean by tape, new here. But I read the esolang article
23:24:20 <__kerbal__> Are you familiar with the C array?
23:24:39 <Mew_> I'm very new to C/C++
23:24:45 <Mew_> so, vaguele
23:24:48 <Mew_> so, vaguely*
23:25:02 <__kerbal__> The C# array is very similar
23:25:09 <__kerbal__> I see you use C#?
23:25:11 <Mew_> Ye
23:25:13 <Mew_> yep
23:25:31 <__kerbal__> Ok, so basically a tape is like an array that stores integers.
23:25:59 <__kerbal__> Tapes can be arbitrary length in some langs, though\
23:26:02 <__kerbal__> though
23:26:58 <Mew_> It doesn't store the last character that you wrote if that is what you mean. I want to implement that by the loop, so if you want something that you previously wrote, you need to access the saved variable in acc.
23:27:34 <Mew_> and to add store a value in acc I want to add the loop [ code ] so that the value at ] would be stored
23:27:40 <__kerbal__> I believe the acc you are talking about may be a stack or a queue (maybe even a deque)
23:27:52 <Mew_> yeah
23:28:52 <__kerbal__> stacks and queues are like tapes, but you access them from the ends instead of from within
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23:30:02 <Mew_> ah, I see
23:31:35 <__kerbal__> You might be able to use c# arrays to simulate a tape
23:31:51 <__kerbal__> or stack
23:31:59 <__kerbal__> for a stack, a list would be better
23:31:59 <Mew_> That is interesting, because I didnt think of that when I started this evening
23:32:12 <Mew_> but now I think that is the way I should take
23:33:45 <__kerbal__> By the way, if you are having trouble with the C# implementation, Python might be easier
23:34:03 <Mew_> ACC is a registry that stores a value in op codes, and so when you call SUB or ADD it will subtract or add to the ACC registry, that was the way I was planning to go
23:34:40 <Mew_> Ah, see now. I learned Python after I had just learned batch as a kid, but C# kind of took over and suppressed it
23:34:57 <Mew_> but I remember batch clear as day
23:36:25 <__kerbal__> So, without a tape, would your language have an ACC and another accumulator that you have been using already?
23:39:01 <__kerbal__> (The one that +, -, and . have been operating on)
23:39:03 <Mew_> Yep, so it could do subtraction, addition, multiplication and division
23:39:49 <__kerbal__> Interesting; see the bottom of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Stack
23:40:03 <__kerbal__> wait, never mind
23:40:06 <__kerbal__> That's about stacks
23:40:12 <__kerbal__> You need accumulators
23:40:39 <__kerbal__> I think you need a tape or a stack or something like that for a TC language
23:40:43 <__kerbal__> unbounded memory
23:40:59 <__kerbal__> with only 2 accumulators, you'd only have two variables
23:41:07 <__kerbal__> crudely speaking
23:41:07 <Mew_> yep, thats the plan
23:41:15 <Mew_> extremely hard to write code for
23:41:20 <Mew_> like brainfuck
23:41:24 <Mew_> but more brainfucky
23:42:35 <__kerbal__> BF has unbounded memory, and is TC. That means that it can execute almost any algorithm you throw at it, even if it is hard
23:42:57 <__kerbal__> I highly recommend that you implement a tape to take advantage of Turing-Completeness
23:43:11 <Mew_> I like how BF is turing complete but C isnt
23:43:50 <Mew_> Ill see what I can do. It'd be pretty cool to be able to say that I have made a turing complete language
23:44:35 <__kerbal__> About C: Some people say that it isn't TC, but in practice it is basically as TC as any other language
23:44:45 <__kerbal__> in a real-world sense
23:44:49 <alercah> not quite
23:45:15 <__kerbal__> man, my explanation was nearly flawless. What'd I get wrong?
23:45:21 <alercah> there's a critical distinction, in that a standards-compliant C implementation must have finite memory
23:45:27 <alercah> even if you have infinite physical memory available
23:45:40 <alercah> whereas BF has a theoretically infinite tape
23:46:28 <Mew_> "A programming language that is Turing complete is theoretically capable of expressing all tasks accomplishable by computers; nearly all programming languages are Turing complete if the limitations of finite memory are ignored." According to wikipedia
23:46:32 <__kerbal__> is it because of the size_t thing?
23:46:53 <__kerbal__> Mew_: No, what he's saying is that the language itself puts a limit on memory
23:46:57 <alercah> __kerbal__: and finite pointer size
23:47:00 <alercah> *she
23:47:19 <__kerbal__> No, I'm a he
23:47:27 <alercah> but I'm not and you were talking about me
23:47:34 <__kerbal__> oh, very sorry
23:47:46 <alercah> np
23:48:04 <alercah> the standard requires there to be finitely many pointer values, and every object needs a distinct address
23:48:53 <fizzie> Insert the standard #esoteric discussion about how an implementation may allow infinite files to get around that problem.
23:49:20 <__kerbal__> fizzie: Can you do that?
23:49:43 <__kerbal__> or will we be inserting the discussion by asking that question?
23:49:43 <alercah> it's a hotly contested subject
23:49:47 <alercah> yes
23:49:50 <__kerbal__> ah
23:51:01 <fizzie> It does require files where you can seek around with a relative offset, but not (necessarily) get/set an absolute one.
23:51:21 <alercah> but fseek() has to return the current offset
23:52:04 <alercah> err, ftell()
23:52:51 <fizzie> Arguably it doesn't need to work for all files.
23:53:04 <Mew_> Well, good night. I have to magically fall asleep and wake up in the next 5 hours. Work
23:53:06 <Mew_> Ctya
23:53:09 <Mew_> Cya
23:53:21 <__kerbal__> bye
23:53:40 <Mew_> Also thanks __kerbal__ :)
23:53:50 <__kerbal__> de nada
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23:54:16 <__kerbal__> hope he finishes his language.
23:54:20 <__kerbal__> Or she
23:54:37 <__kerbal__> I keep doing that :(
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23:55:21 <FireFly> that's what singular they is for
23:55:30 <__kerbal__> I hate singular they, personally
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23:55:44 <__kerbal__> from now on, I should just use the nicks, I guess
23:55:44 <FireFly> fair, to each their own
23:55:47 <FireFly> (well err)
23:55:55 <FireFly> (I just realised the irony of using singular they in that line)
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23:56:43 <boily> it's safe to assume people are themselves, up to isomorphism.
23:56:54 <__kerbal__> It looked like Mew_ created a new character set
23:57:11 <__kerbal__> for whatever that language was named
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23:57:34 <__kerbal__> Rerail, it was called
23:58:16 <__kerbal__> space was right before A
2017-07-04
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00:04:56 <alercah> hmm I want to make a language where the only available integer constants are weird
00:05:05 <alercah> but you need to not be able to know they are coprime or it's easy
00:06:31 <fizzie> In case someone else had missed it too (and there's precedent discussing it on-channel), SGDQ 2017 is happening.
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00:09:18 <__kerbal__> alercah: by weird do you mean non-coprime?
00:09:25 <alercah> __kerbal__: no like
00:09:47 <alercah> available constants include: the number of bytes in the source file, the current day of the month, numberwang
00:10:00 <FireFly> Ah
00:10:13 <__kerbal__> neat
00:10:32 <__kerbal__> this could have interesting ramifications for quines
00:10:49 <alercah> numberwang is a constant for any run of the program but changes each run
00:11:16 <fizzie> Presumably you need to restrict what can be done with those constants, otherwise (X/X)+(X/X)+(X/X)+... is an unary way to represent any number, for a constant X.
00:11:32 <alercah> yeah
00:11:50 <__kerbal__> so, for truly portable code you'd have to work around integer constants entirely or exploit a loophole
00:12:13 <__kerbal__> unless you use something like the number of bytes in the source
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00:12:49 <__kerbal__> Still, how do you prevent someone from rebuilding the set of integer numbers from a single number and arithmetic?
00:13:05 <alercah> you make it hard to find 1
00:14:00 <__kerbal__> so arithmetic will be restricted if it generates 1?
00:15:14 <__kerbal__> This is neat territory
00:15:20 <alercah> well no, if you get 1, you win
00:15:35 <alercah> although it might be helpful to include intercal-style arithmetic
00:15:41 <alercah> where you don't get your usual operations
00:15:51 <__kerbal__> to prevent fizzie's scenario?
00:16:02 <alercah> well that and just to make it more entertaining
00:16:08 <__kerbal__> true :)
00:17:37 <__kerbal__> what about a rotation operator? It would rotate the line to the complex number x y degrees
00:17:45 <__kerbal__> (if you want complex numbers)
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00:21:29 <alercah> yeah that's an option
00:21:47 <alercah> putting max or min in (but not both, that's too easy) would be good
00:21:52 <alercah> maybe round to nearest multiple of 7
00:21:53 <__kerbal__> if you don't, what about an operator a such that, for 2 integer numbers x and y, as y or x approaches infinity or negative infinity, x a y is 2 or negative 2 or something like that? Something that evokes the 1/x curve
00:21:59 <zzo38> I am trying to install a package that uses a dependency which is not available on the distribution I am using; it is libstdc++6 (>= 4.8) which I do not have. How to fix it?
00:22:14 <__kerbal__> max and min would be helpful
00:22:48 <__kerbal__> by negative 2, I mean 0: Some integer thing that approaches 1 for infinite operands
00:23:20 <__kerbal__> asymptotically approaches 1, I guess I am trying to say
00:23:23 <alercah> that really requires floating poing to be productive
00:23:32 <alercah> ooh, should maybe use a non-IEEE floating point for all numbers too
00:23:36 <__kerbal__> you could round, I guess, but that would make little sense
00:23:40 <__kerbal__> with integers
00:23:59 <__kerbal__> Yeah, that's best with floats
00:25:23 <alercah> have the exponent be powers of 3
00:25:35 <alercah> and don't bother normalizing the mantissa
00:26:05 <__kerbal__> you could even do base 3 arithmetic
00:26:20 <alercah> that's not really meaningful
00:26:25 <__kerbal__> true
00:27:04 <alercah> actually I think the floating point math would get weirder with bigger exponent base?
00:27:07 <alercah> like if I did base 101
00:27:15 <__kerbal__> that'd be cool
00:27:46 <__kerbal__> and confusing, but that's the idea
00:27:49 <zzo38> "Important: libstdc++6 is an important system library that many different packages depend on. Upgrading this package to a newer release might be dangerous and might lead to system stability issues." Is it possible to tell only one program to use the new version?
00:28:19 <alercah> no
00:28:29 <alercah> you can only have one library with a given SONAME
00:28:41 <alercah> well
00:28:45 <alercah> within your package manager you can't
00:29:05 <alercah> you could if you downloaded the program separately and wrapped it with a script to set LD_LIBRARY_PATH
00:29:32 <shachaf> zzo38: imo statically link everything hth
00:31:49 <zzo38> And, how to do that?
00:32:36 <shachaf> Apparently it's not easy to statically link libstdc++
00:36:44 <alercah> lol nope
00:37:17 <shachaf> computers are scow
00:38:01 <__kerbal__> Someone should make an esolang where the only storage is really a tape but is interfaced as and called an accumulator vector, just to make people think
00:38:40 <__kerbal__> Multiple accumulator vectors in a language would have some neat mathematical properties
00:38:52 <__kerbal__> because they'd basically be tapes that'd interact
00:39:21 <__kerbal__> through arithmetic operations and the like
00:39:30 <__kerbal__> or would that simply be a language called R?
00:41:11 <__kerbal__> actually, a language where you would treat stacks and tapes and everything else as single, interactable structures with arithmetic capabilities would be really cool.
00:41:41 <__kerbal__> and now I'm ranting
00:44:33 <zzo38> Is it possible for a ELF program to specify a different filename or different directory or whatever and to modify the ELF program to do that without causing a problem? I can add a wrapper script if necessary but I don't even know how would be adding the separate library and how to program to make it to do that?
00:50:02 <zzo38> How do I download version 4.8 of libstdc++6 anyways?
00:52:00 <zzo38> Also, what do I set LD_LIBRARY_PATH to? What is the man page for LD_LIBRARY_PATH?
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00:55:09 <zzo38> Nevermind I found the information about LD_LIBRARY_PATH.
00:55:32 <zzo38> However, that does not tell me how to download libstdc++6
01:06:08 <__kerbal__> are you on linux? if so, wouldn't apt-get install work?
01:07:24 <zzo38> But that version of that package is not available.
01:08:25 <zzo38> I tried to use "dpkg --dry-run" with the .deb for Node.js version 8, but it says error it needs the action option.
01:10:13 <__kerbal__> So, the package is a newer release?
01:10:26 <zzo38> Yes
01:11:12 <zzo38> I want to download the file for libstdc++6 version 4.8 and then tell this program to use the newer one even though the other program does not.
01:11:41 <zzo38> I could write a shell script that sets LD_LIBRARY_PATH but first the file need to installed.
01:12:21 <__kerbal__> Would this help at all? I bet you've already tried this https://packages.debian.org/jessie/libstdc++6
01:14:22 <zzo38> I don't know if it might conflict with other programs that use the existing libstdc++6, such as Ubuntu system files
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01:23:50 <__kerbal__> fungot: what is your name?
01:23:50 <fungot> __kerbal__: they say that real hackers always are controlled. there, among other things, the stone struck the spider lay dead beside him, and even birds, got out, long snout upraised like a blank scroll is the ultimate shape changer.
01:24:22 <__kerbal__> Ironically, I suspect that fungot was never trained on the word fungot, so he can't say it
01:24:22 <fungot> __kerbal__: they say that most monsters prefer minced meat. that's why they are capable of attacking twice with weapons and with a +5 shovel.
01:25:33 <__kerbal__> implicitly avoiding bot loops
01:25:44 <__kerbal__> with 1 bot, himself
01:25:58 <__kerbal__> fungot IS a he, right?
01:25:58 <fungot> __kerbal__: they say that venus sprang from the oligocene of asia, which fought on its lowest level.
01:30:50 <Warrigal_> fungot: appropriate
01:30:50 <fungot> Warrigal_: blind io had got his name because, where his eye. but the sword. ( the light but warm silken stuff that the priesthood are specially favored by the puritans and in the sky who plagued the allied pilots in their white faces burned keen and merciless eyes; under their mantles were long grey robes; upon their grey hairs were helms of silver; in their fate, full share had the dead.
01:30:57 <Warrigal_> fungot: appropriate
01:30:57 <fungot> Warrigal_: they say that some eggs could hatch in your .newsrc!"
01:31:10 <Warrigal_> fungot: around
01:31:10 <fungot> Warrigal_: sake: japanese rice wine. human(oid) of the english language)
01:31:14 <Warrigal_> fungot: around
01:31:14 <fungot> Warrigal_: the wizard of yendor and stay away from onslaught. he is believed to have assumed mortal form and inhabited the dungeon residents who, naturally, often carrying diseases. " after dinner, you see invisible things.
01:31:29 <Warrigal_> Trying to figure out if fungot tries to use a word that's in the prompt message.
01:32:22 <__kerbal__> fungot: a
01:32:22 <fungot> __kerbal__: disenchanter: ask not, as shown by all accounts.' ( the tough guide to the lion kills and eats, and he looked at rikki-tikki with the atlatl, which means old god, goddess: goddesses and gods, godlets rather, in the following year condemned to be leading the souls who pass to afterlife, but never to touch naked persons: they don't harm them.
01:32:33 <__kerbal__> fungot: the
01:32:33 <fungot> __kerbal__: old hackers never sleep near invisible ring wraiths. yeats). they were not trolls but giant orcs; but the goblins called it simply biter. they called them gremlins, he enjoys visiting the earth elemental, the shokaku bo were small plates, sometimes triangular but more commonly rectangular in shape. because the front projected so far as the ears, and can spread a quickly fatal illness to his feet.
01:32:44 <__kerbal__> the answer is yes, technically
01:32:50 <__kerbal__> for at least some words
01:33:00 <Warrigal_> Anyway, I feel an esolang coming on.
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03:28:25 <zzo38> X is much better than Wayland I think. However, a lot of stupid junk has been added into X, too.
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04:01:20 <\oren\> maybe linkin park is just music for people who are failures at life
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06:10:35 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like NeWS?
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07:33:08 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: There was no such function. <-- well it was not _implemented_... or are you saying edwardk is a _liar_?
07:35:43 <oerjan> or even worse, people are faking edwardk quotes
07:37:02 <shachaf> edwardk is sometimes an exaggarator
07:37:14 <oerjan> *GASP*
07:39:37 <shachaf> `5 w
07:39:42 <HackEgo> 1/2:misle//misle v. tr. "I was misled about morphology." \ ursala//~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J,^|J/~& ~&rt!=+ ^= ~&s+ ~&H(-+.|=&lrr;,|=&lrl;,|=&ll;+-, ~&rgg&& ~&irtPFXlrjrXPS; ~&lrK2tkZ2g&& ~&llrSL2rDrlPrrPljXSPTSL)+-, \ tachyon//The tachyon is rude and has no style, but gets away with it because of its spee
07:39:47 <shachaf> `n
07:39:48 <HackEgo> 2/2:d. Taneb will invent it if he ever catches up. \ frozen water//Frozen water is just ice. \ man//Man is destined for Greatness, despite being a minor island.
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10:39:04 <wob_jonas> "<Warrigal_> Aw man. I just thought of a sweet mathematical property that isn't actually true." => wait, I'll tell another one that would be nice if it were true
10:40:30 <wob_jonas> Let F and G be integers, a_0=0, a_1=1, and for every natural number k, a_{k+1}=Fa_{k-1}+Ga_k. It would be nice if for every natural numbers k and l, gcd(a_k,a_l)=a_{gcd(k,l)}
10:40:49 <wob_jonas> This actually works for F=G=1 and many other choices, but it fails for some others.
10:40:57 <wob_jonas> Even if you put magnitude bars in.
10:42:41 <wob_jonas> "<fizzie> Maybe we should have a 15-year celebration of some sort for #esoteric this coming December." => wow, now I feel like a newbie here
10:44:38 <wob_jonas> "<shachaf> oerjan: I think apartheid known even to youngsters." => this, yes. you can't avoid shameful 20th century history if you live in present day Europe, with all the memorials around
10:47:54 <wob_jonas> fungot, when you fry then cook beef slices, how do you prepare the meat?
10:47:55 <fungot> wob_jonas: ashikaga takauji was a pretty fair shot with a bag.... but none have found him and his sword-blade was stained black. somehow the killing of the moon and wisdom, thoth is the same colour as the originator and guardian deity of horse races. his most distinctive features are the devil's work.
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10:55:16 <wob_jonas> "<__kerbal__> oh, so the clients would connect by telephone? <__kerbal__> that's a neat idea" => ok, great, now I no longer feel like a newbie
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10:57:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: I'm not sure the intercontinental rockets for secure comms are a good idea. countries sometimes get very annoyed when unidentified rockets are shot through their airspace. if you communicate a lot that way, you might accidentally start a war.
11:02:33 <wob_jonas> "<alercah> available constants include: the number of bytes in the source file" => there's something like that used in that dc signature program that breaks if you try to debug it by adding printfs, because it takes the length of certain macros and accesses them as integer constants
11:04:29 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> How do I download version 4.8 of libstdc++6 anyways?" => install a new enough gcc from source
11:04:41 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> Also, what do I set LD_LIBRARY_PATH to? What is the man page for LD_LIBRARY_PATH?" => the manpage is ld.so
11:04:58 <zzo38> That last question I did figure out myself already at least
11:05:02 <zzo38> (about LD_LIBRARY_PATH)
11:05:36 <wob_jonas> "<fungot> Warrigal_: blind io had got his name because, where his eye. but the sword. ( the light but warm silken stuff that the priesthood are specially favored by the puritans and in the sky who plagued the allied pilots in their white faces burned keen and merciless eyes; under their mantles were long grey robes; upon their grey hairs were helms
11:05:36 <fungot> wob_jonas: multi-player nethack is your turn", as near as might be a doppelganger sent to inflict pain or cause injury. suddenly, a realist in action and a wonderfully beautiful bull.... but all the gods to listen easily.
11:05:36 <wob_jonas> of silver; in their fate, full share had the dead."
11:05:39 <wob_jonas> nice
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11:46:15 <fizzie> "his most distinctive features are the devil's work."
11:46:19 <fizzie> fungot: Never stop being you.
11:46:19 <fungot> fizzie: dingo: a rock mole is a device that can reach the nether world, so what use is engraving in a long, jointed tail tapering to a shoe; a few things to say why. his expression quickly changed, and also a device used to describe the occasional village through which they passed, meant fever- ridden and tumbledown. twoflower was a flutter of wings at the price tags before buying anything.
11:46:53 <fizzie> TIL: a rock mole is a device that can reach the nether world.
11:53:33 <boily> fungot: feeling abyssal?
11:53:33 <fungot> boily: money to invest? take it to imitate at this catastrophe, or consecration. thor used it to hatch. when carried, it was a time when rincewind had quite liked the iconoscope. he does not have heard of on the widdershin side of the slain, the goddess deprived her of her charms and changed to a very light snack.
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11:59:58 <\oren\> linkin park make nice music but I can't relate to their lyrics at all
12:03:31 <wob_jonas> fungot, how do you treat insect bites?
12:03:31 <fungot> wob_jonas: does your boss know what you're doing right now. while he was the world he shall surely be put to death by some quantum event. if you can't bribe soldier ants.
12:03:54 <wob_jonas> hehe
12:05:09 <\oren\> I usually use calamine since I wouldn't know what to bribe the ants with
12:06:28 <wob_jonas> you bribe them with gold pieces. gold is universally respected as a currency, see http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html
12:12:37 <wob_jonas> `quote
12:12:37 <HackEgo> 926) <fungot> Áis523ÎkËÇÏ52Í¿ÉnÐffjliated/ais523: ever tried reading while confused?
12:12:37 <fungot> HackEgo: one has to leave shops before closing time.
12:12:38 <wob_jonas> `wisdom
12:12:40 <HackEgo> for further details for futher details.//See `? for further details for futher details.
12:13:09 <wob_jonas> `? further details
12:13:10 <HackEgo> further details? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:13:11 <wob_jonas> `? for further details
12:13:12 <HackEgo> who knows
12:13:12 <ais523> at least in NetHack, bribing people with gold only works on a subset of humans
12:13:56 <wob_jonas> (plus a subset of demons, but only for people who don't play in easy mode)
12:14:07 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCiFO7qV54E
12:14:09 <ais523> I once bribed one of the Castle soldiers to block a corridor for me to stop the rest interfering with me while I looted it
12:14:13 <ais523> wob_jonas: oh right
12:14:23 <ais523> I forgot about those as it's a completely different mechanic internally
12:17:00 <wob_jonas> (and leprechauns, sort of, but they return later)
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12:29:23 <wob_jonas> `scheme
12:29:24 <HackEgo> The Fate of the Flammable
12:29:24 <wob_jonas> `star-wars
12:29:25 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: star-wars: not found
12:29:26 <wob_jonas> `recipe
12:29:27 <HackEgo> pan, combine the milk, tomato, cinnamon, and eggs; mix well, and sides of \ fork and process until mixture is smooth. Top with a pasta, \ and roll up. (The seed sandwich in an individual long and cut \ in time of the tips.) In a bowl, mix the lemon juice, and \ onion, and cook. Stir in the cream and salt; pour into soup \ and flour mixture int
12:29:33 <wob_jonas> `starwars
12:29:35 <HackEgo> Obi-Wan Kenobi
12:29:56 <wob_jonas> `5 starwars
12:29:58 <HackEgo> 1/1:Supreme Leader Snoke \ Finn \ Gial Ackbar \ Supreme Leader Snoke \ Sio Bibble
12:30:11 <wob_jonas> `5 scheme
12:30:14 <HackEgo> 1/1:Your Puny Minds Cannot Fathom \ The Pieces Are Coming Together \ Realms Befitting My Majesty \ Every Hope Shall Vanish \ May Civilization Collapse
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14:19:22 * __kerbal__ narrows his eyes
14:19:45 <__kerbal__> wait... connecting to a server via telephone is basically just dialup, isn't it
14:19:46 <__kerbal__> ?
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14:28:27 <alercah> yes
14:29:21 <__kerbal__> You learn (or remember, or whatever), something new every day!
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15:15:45 <__kerbal__> ;botsnack oreo
15:15:50 <__kerbal__> ;botsnack cookie
15:15:53 <__kerbal__> ;botsnack mint
15:15:59 <__kerbal__> ;botsnack waffle
15:16:03 <__kerbal__> ;botsnack other food
15:16:03 <Fungusot> __kerbal__: STOP SPAMMING ME! I'LL EXECUTE YOUR REQUEST IN A SECOND! FOR NOW, I JUST WANT PEACE!
15:16:26 <__kerbal__> ;hi
15:16:27 <Fungusot> __kerbal__: STOP SPAMMING ME! I'LL EXECUTE YOUR REQUEST IN A SECOND! FOR NOW, I JUST WANT PEACE!
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15:18:24 <__kerbal__> Well, what do you think?
15:18:54 <__kerbal__> It's fungot's short-tempered cousin
15:18:54 <fungot> __kerbal__: ishtar: ishtar ( the prisoner, by j.r.r. tolkien) of scaly lizards, especially the _chameleo vulgaris_ species, with broad girdles that held it glowed with a +5 shovel. ( after the blade itself gleamed like a lizard corpse is guaranteed to be clean enough. ( the lands beyond the world with human beings who not unnaturally showed intense gratitude for the feast of st. brigit. there is a translation of the twilight th
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16:59:27 <Mew_> G'day
17:11:43 <__kerbal__> Hi
17:12:19 <FireFly> G'evening
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17:35:15 <zzo38> Good day
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18:44:18 <__kerbal__> One of my many ideas: You know how many esolangs (the esolangs wiki counts 237 languages that use a tape in some way. although probably not all of them exclusively use one tape for memory), no matter their syntatical differences, use a tape as their memory?
18:45:04 <__kerbal__> What about a framework where you could code in multiple tape-based esolangs within the same document, switching at will? You could start in BF and switch to Integ partway through
18:45:19 <__kerbal__> It'd be confusing but really cool
18:53:56 <Mew_> Cool idea
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20:12:57 <__kerbal__> You'd basically have a large program in, say, Tapelang, that executes commands by running subprograms in other languages. These subprograms might return a value to TapeLang, allowing TapeLang to have its own logical structures; ideally, however, the programs would interact with one another by modifying the shared tape. A Tellurium program might read a string to the tape, say, and then an Integ program would import a chatbot modu
20:13:45 <__kerbal__> rgb values of the geometric figure that it represents (like a square) and then a Graphical BF program would write the program to the screen.
20:15:03 <__kerbal__> TapeLang would be the glue that allows these languages to coexist in one program
20:15:53 <__kerbal__> (of course, Integ's not a great language for working with strings, but you get my point)
20:16:47 <__kerbal__> In the example I gave, you'd input the name of a shape (like "square") and the program would draw a square, using the combined capabilities of the languages used
20:18:51 <__kerbal__> It'd sort of resemble the .NET framework
20:19:05 <__kerbal__> except the programs are all interpreted
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23:28:13 <quintopia> helloily
23:28:23 <quintopia> you should have come to sgdq
23:29:09 <alercah> quintopia: are you there? do you run?
23:29:15 <quintopia> there are at least four people shuffling tiles at any time for at least 8 hours every day
23:29:30 <quintopia> yeah im here no i dont run
23:29:32 <alercah> I know the guy responsible for that
23:29:35 <alercah> sadly it's in the US
23:29:55 <quintopia> who is respons8ble
23:30:24 <alercah> George Lu iirc
23:30:30 <alercah> no wait
23:30:32 <alercah> Liu-Krason
23:30:52 <boily> quinthellopia! hellorcah!
23:32:49 <quintopia> what you doing this weekend boily?
23:33:14 <alercah> not playing mahjong in london with me
23:34:00 <quintopia> of course not. hes always busy
23:38:16 <boily> Québec City this weekend, for my dad's birthday ^^
23:38:52 <boily> I shuffled last Sunday. nothing like the good old haneman. 6100 each. mwah ah ah.
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23:48:14 <alercah> boily: nice
23:48:19 <alercah> boily: came close to a couple baimen
23:49:32 <boily> sweet!
23:49:48 <boily> (uhm... I doubt baimen is the correct plural, but it's cromulent...)
23:54:33 <\oren\> screw it I guess I'm gonna bingewatch spongebob now
23:54:39 <\oren\> I'm ready I'm ready I'm ready I'm ready
2017-07-05
00:06:48 <alercah> can anyone recommend a good linux curses hex editor
00:06:52 <alercah> last one I tried can't delete bytes
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00:07:41 <alercah> can't use vim and xxd like usual because my problem is specifically that vim is being dumb with line endings
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00:10:11 <boily> he\\oren\!
00:10:24 <boily> alercah: have you tried :set backspace=2 ?
00:11:13 <boily> hexcurse?
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00:12:05 <alercah> hexcurse seems good, ty
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00:13:41 <boily> aurgh. can't delete :(
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00:36:32 <alercah> dammit
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00:49:15 <fizzie> Heh. Amazon said they'd be dispatching this order on July 4rd... and true enough, at 23:47 local time they did.
00:49:25 <fizzie> "4rd".
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01:48:21 <__kerbal__> I am still thinking about building TapeLang... what languages should I include?
01:49:26 <shachaf> tapeworms
01:51:13 <__kerbal__> Is that the language with the INFECT command?
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06:36:53 <oerjan> `wisdom by?one
06:37:07 <HackEgo> That's not wise.
06:37:19 <oerjan> `wisdom ?
06:37:21 <HackEgo> of//Of this incident we shall never speak again.
06:38:43 <oerjan> oh that grook
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06:43:47 <asie> I've been woken up from my not-being-here
06:43:58 <asie> just briefly, though
06:44:32 <shachaf> `welcome asie
06:44:32 * oerjan prepares the zombie spray
06:44:34 <HackEgo> asie: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
06:44:46 <asie> good idea oerjan
06:45:02 <asie> It's mostly because someone contacted me about DOBELA, and I'm said as I was 12 at the time and so remember nothing about my original intentions
06:45:08 <asie> I'm sad*
06:45:40 <oerjan> shocking
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10:22:59 <shachaf> oerjan: I was asking about sorting algorithms that can use three-valued comparison efficiently, or something like that, right?
10:23:06 <shachaf> Is quicksort a good example?
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10:48:55 <shachaf> oerjan: Yep, there's a lot of people talking about how quicksort can be much better with three-way comparison.
10:58:30 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_national_flag_problem
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11:50:02 <boily> `5 w
11:50:21 <HackEgo> 1/2:spämmer//Spämmers are advertisers of Spämmi, the delicious Finnish fish product. \ resume//A resume is something that you use in order to end a pause in employment. \ epimorphism//An epimorphism is just a monomorphism in the opposite category. \ finland//Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of the
11:50:22 <boily> `n
11:50:23 <HackEgo> 2/2:m are in this channel. Corun drives the bus. \ rdocscovery//Rdocscoveries include footballs, how bored one person can get, and Budapest.
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14:36:35 <Mew_> G'evening
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15:11:58 <Mew_> https://gyazo.com/e4dc2193464b8cab5aecd2e3b0d4c4db
15:12:01 <Mew_> https://gyazo.com/8db3dad7aee86673922baa992acf9dc1
15:12:05 <Mew_> got variables working
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16:02:03 <int-e> . o O ( please use a pastebin )
16:12:47 <int-e> "The ZeroClipboard library provides an easy way to copy text to the clipboard using an invisible Adobe Flash movie and a JavaScript interface." - I was happier not knowing this.
16:14:50 <myname> ew
16:18:16 <int-e> How about this description. "A modern JavaScript utility library delivering modularity, performance & extras."
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16:23:16 <Cale> int-e: https://xkcd.com/763/
16:24:08 <int-e> you're right, I really shouldn't be looking at the gyazo source code.
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16:32:45 <int-e> "Promisification on steroids" http://bluebirdjs.com/docs/features.html
16:32:53 <int-e> it's a whole new world of awfulness!
16:33:45 <int-e> (bluebird may actually be a lesser of the evils... though I'm afraid to look under the hood0
16:33:48 <int-e> )
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16:37:27 <wob_jonas> `olist 1079
16:37:43 <HackEgo> olist 1079: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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17:01:33 <\oren\> github gists are a good pastebin if you plan on editing them
17:02:27 <APic> 😎
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17:31:00 <\oren\> is this fake news or did I just accidentally planeshift again
17:31:13 <\oren\> Microsoft founder Bill Gates has called on Europe to stop demonstrating generosity towards asylum seekers to avoid an overwhelming migrant influx. He also advises European states to make Africans’ way to the continent much more difficult
17:38:14 <olsner> I think "fake news" is the name for real news, so that's probably not fake news but news that is fake
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17:51:02 <z0d> \oren\: doesn't sound like Bill Gates
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19:37:28 <shachaf> `5 w
19:37:34 <HackEgo> 1/1:kmc//kmc did not run the International Devious Code Contest of 2013. \ reversal//lasrever \ rain//Rain is a natural bird repellent. Also chickens. \ blsq//See: Burlesque \ myname//myname is not your name. You don't know what they are doing. Or you are doing. Or am I? He is Perl's evil twin brother.
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20:01:23 <\oren\> brb installing CNN app so I can rate it 0 stars
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22:14:00 <shachaf> Cale: in dystopian 2017, all math homework is multiple-choice
22:14:58 <shachaf> In Hebrew, multiple choice questions are colloquially called "American questions".
22:17:16 <Cale> hahahhaa
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22:57:24 <quintopia> hi ais523
22:57:35 <ais523> hi
22:57:55 <quintopia> is there a good algorithm to filter signal from repetitious noise
23:00:23 <ais523> I thought I had one a while ago, but after I actually implemented it it turned out not to work
23:00:29 <ais523> either that or I screwed something up
23:01:41 <ais523> my guess at a simple algorithm for doing that, though, would be to start off with a fourier transform of the whole thing, largest component is probably the frequency of the noise
23:01:41 <ais523> then separate the input into sections equal to the period of the noise, take the average of each of those sections, that's going to be pretty close to the noise itself
23:01:41 <ais523> and then subtract
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23:02:24 <ais523> what's the last you saw? my internet keeps getting disconnected
23:02:39 <fizzie> I already typed "spectral mean subtraction is a classic simple thing for stationary noise" and now you've pretty much obsoleted it.
23:03:10 <ais523> OK, so "<ais523> and then subtract" got through?
23:03:16 <fizzie> Yes, that was the last bit.
23:03:19 <ais523> I have a suspicion that when the "disconnection" happens I can send but not receive
23:03:20 <quintopia> yes
23:03:30 <fizzie> There was also a proper quit from you.
23:03:33 <ais523> come to think of it, the easiest way to tell is the nick I reconnect under
23:03:40 <ais523> because if I reconnect under my own nick, the quit must have got through
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23:04:18 <quintopia> so what if the stream is lines of english text, and each line is either signal or noise entirely
23:05:17 <ais523> normally line noise is fairly easy to determine from English
23:05:23 <ais523> a frequency analysis would be the most obvious way to tell
23:06:07 <quintopia> like, whether the character distribution is similar to average englush text?
23:06:21 <ais523> right
23:06:26 <fizzie> The character distribution, or possibly the digram or trigram one if you want fancier.
23:06:32 <ais523> admittedly, I do say things like ~h=∋ᵐ\cᵐ= in conversation occasionally
23:06:37 <fizzie> I've seen at least one paper on language detection that was just character trigrams.
23:06:37 <quintopia> seems doable
23:06:47 <fizzie> `words --finnish 20
23:06:49 <HackEgo> käsi kyynistäisemmall kuoranasi artiseltä heittavakauempine rostava kassasi laudelmiksi keleväliseksee taus-konstrukti tapautomautteen rakeammetristun kelemmissa nahkiytyimmissa nessäätymiin vällääni ahaavallissani otelevistuvalle rasi kasaiseviltänne
23:06:55 <ais523> but even then, the frequency distribution obviously violates a null hypothesis that all characters are equally probable
23:07:12 <fizzie> Obviously `words sort of "noise" would defeat that.
23:07:23 <quintopia> i think higher character variation could be a good sign of signal in this case
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23:08:11 <fizzie> There's also the compressibility hack, though that might not be appropriate for something as short as a "line".
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23:11:57 <quintopia> as in things are noise if they compress too well or not at all?
23:15:09 <fizzie> Well, depending really on what sort of noise you're expecting. Not at all for something like uniform random characters. Admittedly that's pretty easy to detect otherwise too.
23:23:38 <ais523> random text doesn't compress at all, typically
23:23:50 <ais523> obviously, due to the nature of randomness, it does sometimes, but that's very rare
23:29:07 <fizzie> If it's sampled from a non-uniform distribution, you can have a better encoding for it than a uniform length one.
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23:31:06 <fizzie> ais523: I think I might've had something to say to you about Birmingham, but now I've completely forgotten what it was.
23:31:27 <ais523> fizzie: oh well, it's unlikely I'll be able to produce a useful answer unless you remember the question and let me know what it is
23:31:55 <fizzie> Sorry, upon reflection it was probably York and Taneb instead.
23:32:11 <fizzie> And he's no longer in York either.
23:32:23 <fizzie> Or that's the impression I got anyway.
23:32:50 <ais523> I'm still in Birmingham
23:39:05 <oerjan> . o O ( and despite all this moving around, no uk #esolangers have met yet that i recall )
23:39:38 <oerjan> um * #esotericers
23:39:59 <ais523> isn't there a theory that the Hexhamers met by accident but didn't recognise each other?
23:40:10 <oerjan> THAUSIBLE
23:40:11 <ais523> Hexham's small enough that there's a decent possibility
23:45:25 <shachaf> Have you been to Hexham?
23:45:32 <ais523> no
23:45:50 <ais523> I haven't been significantly north of the Manchester/Sheffield line, unless you count being in a plane flying to/from Canada
23:46:13 <shachaf> Are you still in Birmingham?
23:46:18 <ais523> yes
23:46:24 <oerjan> `? birmingham
23:46:26 <HackEgo> Birmingham is a city in England. We're planning to turn it into a floating island so ais523 can get around a bit more.
23:46:44 <shachaf> Why doesn't ais523 want to leave Birmingham?
23:46:46 <oerjan> and birmingham is still where it used to be. for now.
23:47:06 <ais523> shachaf: I leave it temporarily every now and then
23:47:21 <ais523> but so far haven't had a good enough reason to move out permanently, and it's unlikely one will happen
23:47:30 <ais523> I'm not very good at living away from home (even if it's just a holiday in a hotel)
23:47:42 <shachaf> Home is where your cat is.
23:48:17 <shachaf> Why is Birmingham home?
23:48:24 <ais523> well I was born here
23:48:30 <oerjan> ais523 has a cat?
23:48:33 <ais523> and have lived in the same house almost all my life
23:48:35 <ais523> oerjan: no
23:49:03 <ais523> that makes it my home pretty much by default
23:49:10 <__kerbal__> Is `w equivalent to `?
23:49:16 <ais523> (the first few weeks of my life were spent in a hospital)
23:50:16 <oerjan> __kerbal__: no. `? looks up a particular wisdom, `w a random one.
23:50:31 <shachaf> `w ngevd
23:50:32 <HackEgo> ngevd//ngevd is a fake wisdom entry because having an actual infinite file in wisdom/ makes all manner of stuff bloody awkward. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼ also t​swett‼
23:50:48 <ais523> `?
23:50:49 <HackEgo> ​? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:50:55 <oerjan> shachaf: you cannot demonstrate that without ruining your terminal QED
23:50:56 <ais523> OK, that's the difference
23:51:09 <shachaf> That's one of the differences.
23:51:14 <shachaf> `w oo
23:51:16 <HackEgo> ​`whoops//`whoops is a repluralizer.
23:51:19 <shachaf> `w oo
23:51:20 <HackEgo> cocoon//Cocoon was built by the fal'Cie, and floats above Gran Pulse.
23:51:39 <shachaf> Why do you want to continue living in the same house?
23:51:51 <__kerbal__> Thanks
23:51:55 <shachaf> is this a case of ? shachaf
23:52:09 <ais523> shachaf: moving is very difficult, especially when you have decade's worth of accumulated things
23:52:27 <oerjan> shachaf: i've been tempted to `? shachaf for several minutes.
23:52:33 <shachaf> oerjan: I figured.
23:52:34 <ais523> it's sort-of like a hash table, if I need something I'll know where it'll likely be, but accumulating eveyrthing I own would be much harder
23:52:43 <oerjan> `grwp oo
23:52:48 <HackEgo> ​☾_:☾_ is moon_'s lawful twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. He sometimes eats papers. \ `3:`3 is the obvious generalization of `2 or `4, trying too hard to confuse everyone. \ _46bit:_46bit is a slightly-uptight public-schooled Brit. Taneb invented him. \ abnf:Augmented Backus-Naur Form, an update on the popular
23:53:10 <shachaf> I've never lived in the same house or flat for a decade.
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23:54:58 <shachaf> oerjan: We should fix `5 so that `1 is the obvious generalization of `4.
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23:55:34 <oerjan> wat
23:55:40 <shachaf> `? `1
23:55:42 <HackEgo> ​`1 <cmd> is equivalent to `` <cmd>, except that it splits the output into irc-sized pieces. The next pieces can be viewed with `spam. See also `2. Confusingly almost the obvious generalization of `4.
23:55:54 <shachaf> I.e. not make it default to `5 q
23:56:15 <shachaf> ais523: How much is a decadesworth of accumulated things?
23:56:28 <shachaf> I mean, how much time would it take to rehash?
23:56:48 <shachaf> This is the reason I still don't have some furniture here. It seems like it would be difficult to move.
23:57:11 <oerjan> i have still not rehashed after i moved 4 years ago. no idea which bag most of my things are in.
23:57:47 <shachaf> Did you move from Trondheim to Trondheim?
23:57:51 <oerjan> yes
23:57:58 <shachaf> Should I leave the San Francisco Bay area?
23:58:02 <shachaf> It's pretty expensive.
23:59:33 <oerjan> `cat bin/1
23:59:34 <HackEgo> ​\` "$@" |& sport
23:59:39 <oerjan> `cat bin/2
23:59:40 <HackEgo> ​\` "$@" |& sport 2
23:59:45 <oerjan> `cat bin/3
23:59:46 <HackEgo> eval "$(shuf -n 1 <<'END' \ \` "$@" |& sport 3 \ cmd="${1-quote}"; \`^ 3 "$cmd" \ END \ )"
23:59:52 <oerjan> `cat bin/4
23:59:52 <HackEgo> cmd="${1-quote}"; \`^ 4 "$cmd"
23:59:59 <oerjan> `cat bin/5
2017-07-06
00:00:00 <HackEgo> cmd="${1-quote}"; \`^ 5 "$cmd"
00:00:11 <oerjan> `cat bin/`^
00:00:11 <HackEgo> ​[[ $# == 2 ]] || { echo "Usage: $0 n cmd" >&2; exit 2; }; for ((i=0; i < $1; i++)); do \` "$2"; done | sport
00:00:51 <shachaf> Or maybe I should exploit the proletariat to become rich?
00:00:58 <shachaf> Or am I already doing that?
00:00:59 <oerjan> `cat bin/`
00:00:59 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnooodl
00:02:06 <ais523> shachaf: I don't know, but probably far too long
00:02:17 <oerjan> `slwd bin/`//s,[$]1,$cmd,;1acmd="${1-quote}"
00:02:17 <HackEgo> Roswbud!
00:02:22 <oerjan> `sled bin/`//s,[$]1,$cmd,;1acmd="${1-quote}"
00:02:24 <HackEgo> bin/`//#!/bin/bash \ cmd="${1-quote}" \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$cmd" | rnooodl
00:02:34 <oerjan> `` echo hi
00:02:35 <HackEgo> hi
00:02:36 <oerjan> ``
00:02:37 <HackEgo> 522) <itidus20> what is nice about a pebble is that you can process it with your brain as a number by simply looking at it
00:02:48 <oerjan> `1
00:02:49 <HackEgo> 1/1:1087) <Solain> im not a doctor when it comes to muscles
00:03:13 <shachaf> oerjan: WRONG WAY tdnh
00:03:36 <oerjan> `slwd `1//s,almost ,,
00:03:38 <HackEgo> ​`1//`1 <cmd> is equivalent to `` <cmd>, except that it splits the output into irc-sized pieces. The next pieces can be viewed with `spam. See also `2. Confusingly the obvious generalization of `4.
00:03:56 <oerjan> DISAGREEMENT
00:05:28 <shachaf> `2
00:05:29 <HackEgo> 2/1:
00:05:40 <shachaf> `n
00:05:40 <oerjan> ``^ 2
00:05:41 <HackEgo> 1/1:909) <fungot> Bike: the best acid? where is it?
00:05:41 <fungot> HackEgo: they say that you can't break an amulet of yendor is a smart move.
00:05:41 <HackEgo> Usage: /hackenv/bin/`^ n cmd
00:08:13 <oerjan> hm
00:08:23 <oerjan> `cat bin/`^
00:08:23 <HackEgo> ​[[ $# == 2 ]] || { echo "Usage: $0 n cmd" >&2; exit 2; }; for ((i=0; i < $1; i++)); do \` "$2"; done | sport
00:08:46 <oerjan> oh well
00:09:22 <oerjan> wait what
00:09:44 <shachaf> `` echo fungot
00:09:44 <fungot> shachaf: they say that a gold doubloon is extremely vain.
00:09:45 <HackEgo> fungot
00:09:45 <fungot> HackEgo: they say that it's not what you eat. being required to do it, but, trusting his own authority. those children, because i knew this time i meant to scare, but of adjudicating in the _atiku_ festival in babylon, uruk and other quiet games of the fairies rather nasty people to make sense.
00:09:54 <oerjan> fizzie: fungot seems to no longer be ignoring HackEgo
00:09:54 <fungot> oerjan: if you really can't.
00:10:40 <shachaf> ?where test
00:10:40 * lambdabot tests
00:10:47 <shachaf> > var "functor"
00:10:48 <shachaf> er
00:10:49 <lambdabot> functor
00:10:51 <shachaf> > var "fungot"
00:10:51 <fungot> shachaf: playing billiards pays when you cross it.
00:10:53 <lambdabot> fungot
00:10:53 <fungot> lambdabot: booksellers never read scrolls; they might not have fiery breath or deadly stings, but none looked aside from the fact that all his soldiers gnashed their teeth, creating a tremendous vice-like bite... piranhas are attracted to any other of the damned to hell.
00:11:10 <shachaf> ?where+ test ^style irc
00:11:10 <lambdabot> It is stored.
00:11:11 <oerjan> ANARCHY
00:11:13 <shachaf> ?where test
00:11:13 <lambdabot> ^style irc
00:11:13 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
00:13:02 <oerjan> ^show
00:13:02 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 8ball rreree rerere botsnack bf
00:13:25 <oerjan> (just testing if any other data was wiped out)
00:13:46 <oerjan> ^botsnack
00:13:46 <fungot> Oh nom nom nom!
00:14:43 <shachaf> ^ul (Test)S
00:14:43 <fungot> Test
00:14:49 <shachaf> ^ul (?where test)S
00:14:49 <fungot> ?where test
00:14:49 <lambdabot> ^style irc
00:14:50 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
00:15:18 <shachaf> ?where+ test ^ul (?where test)S
00:15:18 <lambdabot> Nice!
00:15:20 <shachaf> hth
00:16:10 <shachaf> ^ul (`1)S
00:16:10 <fungot> `1
00:16:11 <HackEgo> 1/1:629) <itidus21> myndzi\: ok so one of the nastiest puzzles i suppose is... you're on death row.. you don't want to die.
00:16:15 <shachaf> oh man
00:16:25 <shachaf> the whole thing is a shambles
00:18:58 <shachaf> ?where test
00:18:58 <lambdabot> ^ul (?where test)S
00:18:58 <fungot> ?where test
00:18:58 <lambdabot> ^ul (?where test)S
00:18:58 <fungot> ?where test
00:18:58 <lambdabot> ^ul (?where test)S
00:18:59 <fungot> ?where test
00:18:59 <lambdabot> ^ul (?where test)S
00:18:59 <fungot> ?where test
00:18:59 <lambdabot> ^ul (?where test)S
00:18:59 <fungot> ?where test
00:19:00 <lambdabot> ^ul (?where test)S
00:19:00 <fungot> ?where test
00:19:02 <lambdabot> ^ul (?where test)S
00:19:02 <fungot> ?where test
00:19:04 -!- lambdabot has left.
00:19:09 -!- lambdabot has joined.
00:20:41 <shachaf> ?where+ test /me tests
00:20:41 <lambdabot> Done.
00:22:04 -!- __kerbal__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:26:14 <fizzie> oerjan: Good point.
00:26:55 <oerjan> fizzie: or lambdabot
00:26:57 <fizzie> Now it should.
00:27:18 <oerjan> > var "fungot"
00:27:18 <fungot> oerjan: ( ( lambda ( ignored) fnord)
00:27:20 <lambdabot> fungot
00:27:33 <fizzie> I had completely forgotten the ignore list isn't persisted automatically.
00:27:56 <oerjan> shocking
00:27:57 <fizzie> Normally I reset it when I tell it to join the channel, but after switching to the bouncer thing I don't need to do that after restarting it.
00:28:11 <fizzie> Should probably just save it in the state file too.
00:32:51 -!- sleffy has joined.
00:50:21 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:03:27 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:38:55 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
01:40:29 -!- __kerbal__ has joined.
01:40:36 <__kerbal__> I'm confused (as I often am)
01:40:48 <__kerbal__> is fungot lambdabot now?
01:40:48 <fungot> __kerbal__: where are you arcfide?
01:41:29 <__kerbal__> Or something bot loopy happened?
01:41:56 <oerjan> something loopy.
01:42:27 <oerjan> __kerbal__: fungot's bot ignore list had accidentally got cleared.
01:42:27 <fungot> oerjan: thx for link to fnord?"
01:42:34 <__kerbal__> oh wow
01:43:07 <__kerbal__> fun
01:43:13 <oerjan> see explanation in logs.
01:43:18 <ais523> fizzie: how easy is it to make updates to fungot?
01:43:19 <fungot> ais523: godspeed you black emperor! the dead flag blues? trying to find out
01:43:36 <ais523> like, can you remember what all the code does and where you'd need to change to change something
01:44:27 <shachaf> ^style
01:44:27 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:44:51 <shachaf> kmc_: fungot shares your taste in music hth
01:44:51 <fungot> shachaf: by the way?
01:44:56 <__kerbal__> ^style europarl
01:44:56 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
01:45:22 <__kerbal__> fungot, who is Macron?
01:45:23 <fungot> __kerbal__: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, i should like to congratulate mr telkämper. on development issues he is one of the priorities of health, security and defence policy, which is that when the coal and steel treaty for instance that by the end of the colonial and post-colonial period, has become the basis for our sovereignty. common fisheries policy.
01:45:49 <alercah> wow utf8 fail
01:45:52 <__kerbal__> maybe mr telkämper is his secretary
01:45:55 <alercah> é
01:45:57 <alercah> not even on my end
01:46:20 <oerjan> alercah: you don't have fallback charset?
01:46:47 <alercah> oerjan: guess not?
01:47:59 <oerjan> alercah: i have recode_fallback = cp1252 as someone suggested on channel
01:48:47 <ais523> what proportion of non-UTF-8 text that contains non-ASCII characters happens to be valid UTF-8?
01:49:45 <shachaf> Do you mean that contains bytes > 127?
01:50:56 <alercah> ais523: what's your sampling methodology?
01:51:10 <oerjan> `? mojibake
01:51:12 <HackEgo> _ÌÌÌ°_ÌÌ̦̻ͭͭͬÌÍÌÌÍ¡_ͧÍÌÍÌ­_ÍÍÍͧÍÌÌ̯Í̬̬̦̯_ÌÌÌͨÌÌ´Í
01:51:14 <ais523> alercah: I'm not sure
01:52:01 <shachaf> no one is answering my question about computable reals tdnh
01:52:07 <shachaf> p. sure the answer is yes
01:52:12 <ais523> shachaf: I've given up on Stack Exchange
01:52:25 <ais523> the incentives are all in favour of giving fast, incomplete answers to easy questions
01:52:44 <shachaf> Which incentives?
01:52:49 <shachaf> Internet points?
01:53:10 <ais523> yes, although stack exchange places huge emphasis on them
01:53:25 <shachaf> I guess it's not just Internet points but also votes and green checkmarks and things.
01:53:37 <ais523> but yes, they give you visibility too
01:53:44 <shachaf> The respect and adoration of friends, colleagues, and strangers.
01:53:54 <shachaf> Gotta keep churning out those answers.
01:53:57 <ais523> and you can just pay 50 reputation to put a question onto a separate list to increase the chance that people see it, so you can convert internet points /into/ visibility
01:54:14 <shachaf> How would you fix Stack Exchange?
01:54:47 <ais523> I've put a lot of thought into that but haven't come to firm conclusions
01:55:22 <ais523> there are some obvious bugs that should just be fixed, like the way that if you make a short post (that gets caught in the low-quality posts filter), then you or anyone else edits it to make it better, it gets an unremovable downvote
01:55:23 -!- __kerbal___ has joined.
01:55:31 <alercah> ais523: I know someone whose strategy was to answer as quick as possible
01:55:35 <alercah> then refine with a series of edits
01:55:39 <alercah> because of the importance of being first
01:55:43 <ais523> alercah: you have to do that on some sites
01:55:57 -!- __kerbal__ has quit (Disconnected by services).
01:56:00 <ais523> if a question was new I got into the habit of posting the answer without explanation first
01:56:03 <ais523> and then editing the explanation in afterwards
01:56:03 -!- __kerbal___ has changed nick to __kerbal__.
01:56:46 <ais523> posting early is so important that even if the answer is wrong, it's likely to get more votes than a correct answer posted later, unless the question becomes very popular
01:56:59 <ais523> exception: the answer does have to at least /look/ right, even if it isn't actually
01:58:38 <ais523> I think one good fix would be to age upvotes, making it so that if a lot of answers get upvoted /over/ an answer (i.e. when both are posted), its score goes down
01:58:46 <ais523> I think another good fix would be to ban voting when posts are sorted by votes
01:59:24 -!- augur has joined.
01:59:49 <ais523> I'd also allow the OP of a question to downvote on it for free, regardless of their rep count, as a quick way of discouraging incorrect answers
02:00:03 <ais523> (most OPs can't actually downvote on their own post due to having <125 rep)
02:00:51 <ais523> I'd probably get rid of badges altogether, as they do more harm than good IMO
02:02:39 <ais523> I think it might be reasonable to get rid of the new questions queue altogether (in preference to the active questions queue), increasing the chance that late answers get seen
02:05:11 * oerjan hugs his fanatic badges
02:07:12 <oerjan> one thing that occasionally irritates me on PPCG is that in very active periods, the active tab gets overfilled while i'm sleeping or out of the house.
02:07:38 <oerjan> (likelihood also depends on my current sleeping cycle)
02:08:57 <oerjan> it's small enough that losing information about new changes _shouldn't_ be necessary.
02:11:10 <oerjan> (i don't check every question, mind you.)
02:11:51 <ais523> hot network questions is also probably broken, although whether it's broken or not depends rather on what its intended purpose is, which is unclear
02:12:06 <shachaf> Increasing engagement?
02:12:11 <ais523> it tends to lower the quality of the sites it links to by rewarding trivial posts
02:12:44 <ais523> and suffers badly from positive feedback (most of the possible interactions for a 101-reputation user with a post increase its HNQ score)
02:13:04 <oerjan> that reminds of some subreddits that explicitly asked _not_ to be on the reddit front page.
02:13:15 <oerjan> for essentially the same reason.
02:13:56 <oerjan> *+me
02:14:25 <oerjan> my grammar is leaving ... i can feel it ...
02:14:38 <shachaf> why would anyone want to be on the reddit front page
02:14:42 <ais523> actually, the only interaction I can think of with a post that's possible at 101 reputation and can discourage a post from HNQ listing is flagging, and even then, only if a moderator decides to delete the post
02:15:04 <ais523> shachaf: most communities, forums, etc. benefit from having more good users, that requires the potential good users to be aware of them
02:15:53 <oerjan> oh "going"
02:15:58 <shachaf> https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/130032
02:16:01 <shachaf> I don't understand this.
02:16:07 <shachaf> Does Actually use a nonstandard encoding?
02:16:33 <ais523> probably, most golfing languages do because few standard encodings have 256 distinct printable characters for the 256 octets
02:16:39 <shachaf> Oh, yes.
02:16:47 <shachaf> It uses CP437.
02:16:48 <shachaf> Makes sense.
02:17:22 <ais523> although all those characters are in the extended-CP437 variant which has a printable glyph over each control code too
02:18:52 <__kerbal__> Maybe someone should make a language where ALL the assigned characters in UTF-8 do something... 2,164,864 commands, here we come!
02:19:12 <__kerbal__> (assuming that every unicode character is assigned eventually)
02:19:19 <ais523> someone tried that on Esolang, but they probably shouldn't have started by making blank pages for each Unicode range
02:19:30 <ais523> listing all the characters and not-yet-assigned for the resulting assignment
02:19:53 <oerjan> <ais523> admittedly, I do say things like ~h=∋ᵐ\cᵐ= in conversation occasionally <-- how do you pronounce it twh
02:19:55 <ais523> from a golfing point of view, though, you don't actually want a very large command set because more commands means more bytes to represent each command
02:20:02 <ais523> or at least, if you do, it should be Huffman coding
02:20:02 <__kerbal__> true.
02:20:08 <ais523> oerjan: most of my conversations are done typed
02:20:11 <__kerbal__> But, they can be extremely specific
02:20:26 <ais523> so often I don't know how a specific word and/or program is pronounced
02:21:19 <ais523> but you'd probably expand command mnemonics into a description, so "unhead equal element each transpose concat each equal"
02:21:30 <__kerbal__> the "increment a by 1, print the value at b + 4, input 5 chars" command could be ޘ
02:22:10 <__kerbal__> assuming a and b and b + 4 are on a stack
02:22:33 <__kerbal__> (I guess b + 4 would be 5 elements down from a)
02:22:58 <fizzie> ais523: It's not *too* bad. I remember the big blocks, and there's even a few comments. It's not written in a particularly compact way, and the larger structures make functional sense.
02:23:25 <fizzie> So you basically have to just decode a dozen-or-so-lines subprogram in order to change things.
02:23:40 <__kerbal__> do you have a link to the esolang?
02:23:44 <fizzie> Also there's a list at the bottom as to what things are stored where in the fungespace.
02:24:04 <fizzie> (Though that documentation might not quite be up to date.)
02:24:29 <ais523> __kerbal__: https://esolangs.org/wiki/UniCode is at least one of them; it's possible it's been attempted more than once though
02:25:29 <oerjan> ais523: that's the one that annoyed ehird, anyway.
02:25:49 <__kerbal__> Did some of the commands get removed?
02:27:56 <Warrigal_> __kerbal__: not sure what you mean by "assigned character in UTF-8", since the number of Unicode scalar values is only 1,112,064.
02:28:07 <oerjan> __kerbal__: i think it was mostly just the heaps of unassigned characters
02:29:12 <__kerbal__> Warrigal_: I'm not very familiar with Unicode, so I just pulled that number off of Google without doing enough research, admittedly
02:30:12 <Warrigal_> Must have come from this answer... https://stackoverflow.com/a/38488358/1108505
02:30:21 <ais523> the maximum Unicode codepoint is 1114111, which is a very easy number to remember
02:30:22 <oerjan> > maxBound :: Char
02:30:24 <lambdabot> '\1114111'
02:30:38 <ais523> but many numbers in the 0..1114111 range aren't assigned, and some are officially never going to be assigned
02:30:44 <Warrigal_> The number of code points which UTF-8 *actually* supports is 1,112,064; they're exactly the Unicode scalar values.
02:30:47 <__kerbal__> It diެd!
02:31:01 <ais523> the "these characters will never be assigned" values are sometimes not included in the total
02:31:02 <__kerbal__> Yeah, I was off
02:31:08 <__kerbal__> By a lot
02:31:36 <Warrigal_> The total number of Unicode code points is 1,114,112, and every Unicode code point has an "obvious" UTF-8 encoding, but 2,048 of them are prohibited.
02:31:36 <ais523> (strangely, IIRC 1114111 itself is one of them, not 100% sure on that though)
02:31:58 <ais523> Warrigal_: wait, /just/ surrogates?
02:32:02 <ais523> what about things like the byte-flipped BOM?
02:32:12 <ais523> that one is prohibited for an obvious reason :-D
02:32:15 <Warrigal_> I'm *pretty* sure that's legal to encode in UTF-8.
02:32:25 <Warrigal_> It's not a legal *character*, of course.
02:33:41 <ais523> if that's legal, I don't see why the surrogates wouldn't be too
02:33:59 <Warrigal_> Lemme see if I can find the official word.
02:35:07 <__kerbal__> mޫޫyޫ bޫaޫd
02:35:19 <__kerbal__> combining characters are fun!
02:35:33 <Warrigal_> "The Unicode Standard supports three character encoding forms: UTF-32, UTF-16, and
02:35:33 <Warrigal_> UTF-8. Each encoding form maps the
02:35:33 <Warrigal_> Unicode code points U+0000..U+D7FF and
02:35:33 <Warrigal_> U+E000..U+10FFFF to unique code unit sequences."
02:35:40 <Warrigal_> Ugh, the whitespace.
02:36:14 <ais523> what /is/ that whitespace made of?
02:36:32 <__kerbal__> What whitespace?
02:36:41 <__kerbal__> Oh, I see...
02:36:51 <Warrigal_> `unidecode
02:36:52 <HackEgo> ​[U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE]
02:36:54 <ais523> `unidecode [ | | ]
02:36:54 <HackEgo> ​[U+005B LEFT SQUARE BRACKET] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+007C VERTICAL LINE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+007C VERTICAL LINE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+005D RIGHT SQUARE BRACKET]
02:37:18 <__kerbal__> ⓞⓚ
02:37:22 <ais523> hmm, it didn't really highlight like pairs of spaces, but I guess it is
02:38:04 <Warrigal_> Anyway, that's the official word. All Unicode scalar values are legal for encoding, and nothing else is.
02:38:09 <__kerbal__> ╔════╗
02:38:19 <__kerbal__> ║ ║
02:38:50 <__kerbal__> ╚════╝
02:41:41 <__kerbal__> ╔════╗
02:41:48 <__kerbal__> ║    ║
02:41:54 <__kerbal__> ╚════╝
02:42:31 <Warrigal_> All right, I'm trying to implement mathematics in Lua.
02:42:33 <Warrigal_> All of it.
02:42:48 <Warrigal_> Right now I'm writing the definition of a category.
02:43:16 <Warrigal_> I've got stuff such as:
02:43:17 <Warrigal_> add_eqn('_identity_domain', domain .. identity, object.id)
02:44:28 <__kerbal__> ╔════╗
02:44:33 <__kerbal__> ╔══╗
02:44:44 <__kerbal__> Ok, I need practice
02:44:50 <Warrigal_> Which means: "The axiom '_identity_domain' asserts that taking the domain of the identity morphism of an object is the same as performing the identity operation on that object."
02:44:57 <oerjan> Warrigal_: give a shout when you get around to inter-universal teichmüller theory twh
02:45:55 <Warrigal_> oerjan: roger.
02:46:38 <Warrigal_> Now, I want to be able to read and write axioms such as this one pointfully.
02:46:50 <Warrigal_> This axiom currently pretty-prints as:
02:46:51 <Warrigal_> _identity_domain : domain . identity = 1_object;
02:47:00 <Warrigal_> But I'd rather it pretty-print as, say:
02:47:15 <Warrigal_> _identity_domain : forall (x : object), domain(identity(x)) = x;
02:47:26 <__kerbal__> ╔════╗
02:47:33 <__kerbal__> ║╔══╗║
02:47:40 <__kerbal__> ║║╔╗║║
02:47:49 <__kerbal__> ║║╚╝║║
02:47:55 <__kerbal__> ║╚══╝║
02:48:02 <__kerbal__> ╚════╝
02:49:18 * oerjan aims an arrow >---->
02:49:27 <oerjan> *TWANG*
02:51:53 <shachaf> Good afternoerjan.
02:51:59 <shachaf> Did you see my comment about quicksort?
02:52:16 <shachaf> I was reading about quicksort and as far as I can tell every single implementation of it is misguided?
02:54:15 <Warrigal_> Nyow, how am I going to implement the pointfulness thing.
02:54:35 <Warrigal_> I guess I can start by implementing... expressions.
02:55:07 <Warrigal_> An expression has a context and blah blah blah blah blah.
02:58:04 <oerjan> shachaf: i hear it's not even O(n log n)
02:59:09 <Warrigal_> Hey, I thought of a question once.
02:59:11 -!- Warrigal_ has changed nick to t_swett.
02:59:15 <t_swett> And I thought it was an interesting question.
02:59:27 <t_swett> https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/2071246/how-many-rounds-are-required-in-a-swiss-tournament-sorting-algorithm
03:00:25 <shachaf> oerjan: you're not even O(n log n) hth
03:00:28 <t_swett> "You're organizing a Swiss-style tournament with N players of a game.
03:00:34 <t_swett> "The game is a two-player game, and it results in one winner and one loser. The players are totally ordered by skill, and whenever two players play against each other, the more skilled player always wins.
03:00:39 <t_swett> "In each tournament round, each player can play only one game. Going into the tournament, nothing is known about the relative skill levels of the players. The pairings for each round are not decided until the previous round has finished, so you can use the results from previous rounds when you're deciding how to pair the players up. You are not required to follow any traditional pairing rules.
03:00:43 <shachaf> let { h = n; t = log } in hth
03:00:45 <t_swett> "Your goal is to completely determine the ranking of all N players. What is Swiss(N), the number of rounds required in the worst case?"
03:02:04 <t_swett> The answerer here stated that "asking for the number of tournaments Swiss(n) is the same as asking for the span of an optimal parallel sorting network."
03:02:41 <shachaf> Yep.
03:02:50 <shachaf> I think that's been discussed here before.
03:03:29 <shachaf> Ah, but you're saying it might be more flexible than a sorting network?
03:03:34 <t_swett> Yeah.
03:03:54 <t_swett> I don't see any reason why this couldn't give, say, a 95% speed up in the limit as N goes to infinity.
03:03:59 <shachaf> Doesn't seem like you can get much out of that, but I don't know.
03:04:01 <t_swett> ...I meant to say a 5% speed up.
03:04:10 <t_swett> A 95% speed up seems kind of extreme.
03:04:27 <shachaf> You should measure slowness, not speed.
03:04:30 <shachaf> It's a better unit.
03:04:59 <shachaf> Anyway, you should figure out how to write quicksort for me.
03:06:11 <shachaf> Everyone is passing the wrong argument: They pass 0,n-1 instead of 0,n
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03:11:17 <ais523> t_swett: you clearly need at least ceil(log_2(N)) to determine the winner, worst-case; so that gives a lower bound
03:11:28 <ais523> however I don't think it's always possible to determine the places in between that quickly
03:13:17 <t_swett> ais523: yeah, I calculated that at least log2(N!)/⌊N/2⌋ rounds are required.
03:13:51 <ais523> oh, because otherwise there are fewer unique resultsets than there are orders
03:14:36 <t_swett> > let swisslower n = log (product [1..n]) / log 2 / fromIntegral (div n 2) in map swisslower [2..]
03:14:38 <lambdabot> error:
03:14:38 <lambdabot> • Ambiguous type variable ‘b0’ arising from a use of ‘show_M869356298349...
03:14:38 <lambdabot> prevents the constraint ‘(Show b0)’ from being solved.
03:14:47 <t_swett> > let swisslower n = log (product [1..n]) / log 2 / fromIntegral (div n 2) in map swisslower [2..] :: [Double]
03:14:49 <lambdabot> error:
03:14:49 <lambdabot> • No instance for (Integral Double)
03:14:49 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘swisslower’
03:15:06 <ais523> :t log
03:15:07 <t_swett> > let swisslower n = log (product [1..fromIntegral n]) / log 2 / fromIntegral (div n 2) in map swisslower [2..] :: [Double]
03:15:08 <lambdabot> Floating a => a -> a
03:15:09 <lambdabot> [1.0,2.584962500721156,2.2924812503605785,3.4534452978042594,3.1639510321098...
03:15:37 <ais523> :t ceil
03:15:38 <lambdabot> error: Variable not in scope: ceil
03:16:06 <t_swett> So for N = 2, 3, 4, we get lower bounds of 1, 3, 3, which I found are exact.
03:16:20 <t_swett> For N = 5 and 6, we get lower bounds of 4 and 4.
03:17:00 <oerjan> :t ceiling
03:17:01 <lambdabot> (Integral b, RealFrac a) => a -> b
03:17:25 <t_swett> > let swisslower n = ceiling (log (product [1..fromIntegral n]) / log 2 / fromIntegral (div n 2)) in map swisslower [2..] :: [Int]
03:17:27 <lambdabot> [1,3,3,4,4,5,4,5,5,6,5,6,6,6,6,7,6,7,7,7,7,7,7,7,7,8,7,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,9...
03:17:40 <ais523> I like the dismonotonies, but they make sense
03:17:51 <t_swett> They're kind of cute.
03:18:13 <t_swett> Hmm, is it actually possible that Swiss isn't monotonic?
03:18:14 -!- __kerbal__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
03:18:20 <ais523> although the /actual/ value must be monotonic
03:18:26 <ais523> imagine adding a dummy player who loses every game
03:18:28 <ais523> then removing them at the end
03:18:39 <t_swett> Right, right.
03:18:58 <t_swett> I knew you could add a dummy player, but I wasn't immediately sure how that would actually affect stuff.
03:19:27 <t_swett> ...is that right?
03:19:33 <t_swett> That any strategy that works for 6 players also works for 5 players?
03:19:38 <ais523> yep
03:19:39 <t_swett> Yeah, yeah.
03:19:56 <t_swett> Whenever we're supposed to pit someone against the dummy player, we instead just give that person a bye and assume that they won.
03:20:01 <shachaf> This _ is very confusing.
03:20:21 <t_swett> It is, in fact, possible to have a player who's worse than everyone else, so we're not losing anything here or whatever.
03:20:23 <shachaf> It makes you look like another person who has _ in their nick in the same place.
03:20:49 <t_swett> I know of no such person.
03:20:59 <ais523> preusmably b_jonas is the other person
03:21:04 <ais523> whose nick has a similar shape
03:21:06 <shachaf> No, c_wraith
03:21:17 <t_swett> Hmm. I agree or w/e.
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03:21:24 <shachaf> I didn't even think of b_jonas.
03:21:26 <shachaf> There, much better.
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04:10:11 <\oren\> http://imgur.com/a/6TibM
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04:30:12 <shachaf> copumpkin: hipumpkin
04:30:25 <shachaf> copumpkin: do you read irc or just twitter twh
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05:46:02 <shachaf> https://plus.google.com/+DanPiponi/posts/RpwQAD4jTrb
05:56:08 <copumpkin> shachaf: rarely IRC nowadays except for a couple of channels a bit more often (but not very often still) :)
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13:08:06 <__kerbal__> ║ ║ ╔════ ╔════ ╔════╗ ═══╦═══ ╔════ ╔════╗ ═══╦═══ ╔════
13:08:11 <__kerbal__> ══╬══╬══ ║ ║ ║ ║ ║ ║ ║ ║ ║ ║
13:08:17 <__kerbal__> ║ ║ ╠════ ╚═══╗ ║ ║ ║ ╠════ ╠═╦══╝ ║ ║
13:08:22 <__kerbal__> ══╬══╬══ ║ ║ ║ ║ ║ ║ ║ ╚═╗ ║ ║
13:08:27 <__kerbal__> ║ ║ ╚════ ════╝ ╚════╝ ║ ╚════ ║ ╚═ ═══╩═══ ╚════
13:11:42 <int-e> ugh.
13:13:30 * __kerbal__ wants to know why int-e is disgusted
13:17:00 <int-e> well 5 lines are spam, especially when they become 10: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ugh.png
13:20:01 <__kerbal__> sorry
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14:08:07 <fizzie> Uh-oh, the wiki seems to be down.
14:08:25 <fizzie> On the positive side, at least this time I got an alert email about it.
14:09:54 <int-e> `ping
14:09:57 <fizzie> On the negative side, it's not answering to SSH and I don't have access to the CaC control panels, so it's not like there's anything I can do, except mention Gregor by name in case he can poke at it.
14:10:31 <int-e> . o O ( Do not invoke the name of Gregor in vain. )
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14:11:20 <int-e> . o O ( Okay, next time I should check whether HackEgo is present before trying `ping. )
14:16:34 <myname> interesting, the 5 spam libes look horrible here
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14:34:52 <__kerbal__> I guess that I should use a pastebin the next time I have an overwhelming urge to create character art
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17:39:29 <\oren\> when the fog rolls in from the bog, there are frogs and logs in prague
17:40:05 <LKoen> are the logs light enough to be carried by the fog?
17:40:13 <LKoen> dubious
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17:41:36 <\oren\> i dunno I was thinking there should be a children's book that teaches kids european jografy
17:43:00 <\oren\> because apparently even most adults don't know where prague is
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18:18:16 <wob_jonas> If I make an esoteric language, it's ok if I write code that is less efficient but shows off the abstraction capabilities of the programming language better, right?
18:19:42 <wob_jonas> In particular, I want to implement arithmetic in the core language (to show that it's possible, even though it would be better to add fast arithmetic functions in the interpreter itself). The best way would be by various unrolled fixed size loops with large repetitive tables,
18:20:01 <wob_jonas> but instead I'll try to write short human-readable code that does arithmetic much slower.
18:20:19 <wob_jonas> I guess I should just note that in comments/.
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18:24:53 <wob_jonas> I will have to implement integer division too
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18:53:12 <wob_jonas> yeah, that's like "The evolution of a Haskell programmer"
18:56:39 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> I have a suspicion that when the "disconnection" happens I can send but not receive" => that happens to me too
18:58:25 <int-e> It used to happen to lambdabot too... now it's sending regular ping messages to detect the situation.
18:59:48 <wob_jonas> local or remote ping?
19:00:08 <wob_jonas> ok, sorry, stupid question
19:06:39 -!- jaboja has joined.
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19:07:22 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> I'm not very good at living away from home (even if it's just a holiday in a hotel) / and have lived in the same house almost all my life" => me neither. I just spent two and a half weeks away, which
19:08:30 <int-e> , which?
19:08:47 <wob_jonas> is quite a long time as these things go, but it was easy mode because I was visiting my brother and stayed in his house. I moved out from my parents one and a half years ago, so this is the third house I live in permanently (but I have spent a significant amount of time in my parent's summer cottage too).
19:09:04 <wob_jonas> I'm just typing slow
19:09:18 <int-e> you're
19:09:28 <int-e> forgiven ;-)
19:11:23 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> shachaf: moving is very difficult, especially when you have decade's worth of accumulated things" => indeed: a lot of my accumulated stuff (including books) is still in my parent's house.
19:14:39 <wob_jonas> also, I moved out in easy mode: to the same city and into an apartment where my brother has previously lived and they have restored it really well so I can trust the apartment
19:19:50 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> what proportion of non-UTF-8 text that contains non-ASCII characters happens to be valid UTF-8?" - almost no text is accidentally valid utf-8 as far as I've seen,
19:20:25 <wob_jonas> but there's a certain text compression scheme whose compressed form is deliberately valid utf-8
19:20:43 <wob_jonas> (and possibly non-ascii)
19:21:53 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> the incentives are all in favour of giving fast, incomplete answers to easy questions" - sure, but that's a general problem that happens a lot outside of SE too
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19:28:32 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> although all those characters are in the extended-CP437 variant which has a printable glyph over each control code too" => EXTENDED? that's the original version. cp437 is what the CGA and monochrome cards, the video cards always had all 256 characters in text mode,
19:29:41 * oerjan isn't sure that ais523 logreads.
19:29:43 <wob_jonas> although some printer control languages and some PC software use text formats that allow you to use only a subset, with teletype-like control codes (where at least carriage return is a control char)
19:30:58 <pikhq> My understanding is that "is this valid UTF-8" is more-or-less a perfect heuristic for detecting UTF-8 text.
19:31:10 <pikhq> Unlike most other encoding schemes.
19:32:20 <wob_jonas> pikhq: no, it does fail for some stuff with only ascii bytes
19:32:23 <shachaf> Among what other encodings?
19:32:30 <wob_jonas> but ais523 did ask for stuff with non-ascii bytes
19:32:35 <pikhq> Okay, okay, "is this valid UTF-8 and not ASCII".
19:32:37 <shachaf> It doesn't work for any other seven-bit encoding presumably.
19:32:58 <shachaf> pikhq: how's colorado twh
19:33:01 <pikhq> Though if it's all 7 bit, then frankly you can just assume it's US-ASCII and *probably* be right.
19:33:04 <pikhq> shachaf: Quite nice.
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19:33:41 <pikhq> (I know there are many, many other 7 bit charsets, but who actually *uses* them outside of closed environments?)
19:34:04 <shachaf> Is there a non-US ASCII?
19:34:37 <pikhq> US-ASCII is the MIME preferred name, so that's what I use.
19:34:46 <shachaf> ASCII silly question, get a silly ANSI
19:34:47 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, it's called iso646 encodings
19:34:50 <pikhq> There are non-US ASCII-like charsets.
19:34:55 <pikhq> ISO-646.
19:34:55 <wob_jonas> lol
19:35:16 <pikhq> US-ASCII is the ISO-646 US encoding.
19:35:51 <wob_jonas> ASCII also has some fancy name with an X and a number in it
19:36:08 <pikhq> Rather a lot of countries have their own similar but not quite ASCII-compatible encodings.
19:36:51 <pikhq> *These*, incidentally, are actually the origin for C trigraphs.
19:37:06 <pikhq> The characters represented by trigraphs are not guaranteed to be invariant in ISO-646.
19:37:53 <pikhq> It just so happens that IBM's mainframes are the only actual users now, because IBM still *uses* charsets where they aren't guaranteed to exist, or can vary from charset to charset.
19:39:12 <wob_jonas> yes, although there's also the 7-bit SMS character set, which sort of looks like an iso-646 because the brackets are replaced, but it also puts printable characters to most of the control character codes
19:39:26 <pikhq> Though they do say that if you run C stuff without the charset being a CP 1047 compatible one, stuff breaks.
19:39:32 <wob_jonas> and gets lots of use
19:39:39 <pikhq> (CP 1047
19:40:05 <pikhq> 's variants guarantee the ASCII set exists and is encoded identically. Those are used in the IBM mainframe POSIX environment, generally)
19:40:15 <pikhq> True, but that's the very definition of a closed system.
19:40:44 <pikhq> And you will never need a heuristic to detect the SMS charset in use; it's marked in the packet.
19:42:50 <pikhq> Oh, facepalm.
19:43:24 <pikhq> One of the options is "unspecified 8-bit charset".
19:43:28 <pikhq> Thanks, GSM.
19:52:00 <oerjan> `thanks GSM
19:52:13 <oerjan> oops
19:52:17 <oerjan> fizzie!!!
19:53:07 <fizzie> oerjan: See few hours back re the machine being down.
19:53:13 <oerjan> OKAY
19:54:43 <fizzie> I took the name of Gregor in not-vain on channel already, though "idle: 11 days 10 hours 47 mins 19 secs" does not fill me with confidence.
19:54:50 <wob_jonas> Here's a challenge. Without looking at Knuth's TAOCP, using only secondary resources instead, try to find evidence that in the MIX computer, the CMPA and CMP1 instructions with field specification compares the selected field of rA or rI1 resp, rather than the entire rA or rI1 resp.
19:55:41 <wob_jonas> I've googled for this, and the various informal descriptions of MIX out there on the internet always omit this curious detail. This came up because I'll try to write an entry on the esowiki for MIX.
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20:04:45 <__kerbal__> Here's the box drawing I made earlier, but WITHOUT spamming the channel this time: https://paste.ubuntu.com/25033876/
20:05:24 <__kerbal__> By box-drawing I mean box-drawing character drawing
20:11:53 <wob_jonas> "<\oren\> i dunno I was thinking there should be a children's book that teaches kids european jografy" => don't they do that in school? or do you mean to American kids or something?
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20:14:57 <int-e> reminsds me of http://sergiu.turcanu.net/wp-content/uploads/america.gif
20:18:49 <wob_jonas> hmm, the esowiki is down indeed
20:19:04 <int-e> Gregor Gregor Gregor
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20:19:19 <Gregor> Whatever is up with the server, I haven't the power to fix it right now. Kicking it did nothing.
20:19:32 <__kerbal__> Try pounding it with your fist.
20:19:43 <wob_jonas> Gregor: ouch.
20:19:46 <int-e> :-/
20:19:52 <wob_jonas> do you know who has the power to fix it?
20:19:54 <int-e> thanks for trying anyway
20:20:05 <Gregor> I have the most power to fix it of anybody who gives a shit ;)
20:20:18 <int-e> (i.e. anybody not CaC?)
20:20:27 <shachaf> You still use CaC?
20:20:27 <Gregor> But even the web control panel for CaC is barely functioning, so I assume they're aware.
20:20:34 <wob_jonas> thanks for the info
20:20:37 <shachaf> I thought someone in here had switched away from it.
20:20:57 <pikhq> It's kinda crud, so...
20:21:08 <int-e> shachaf: I did, well, I canceled the toy CaC VM because it would continuously cost money.
20:21:12 <shachaf> @wn crud
20:21:13 <lambdabot> *** "crud" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
20:21:13 <lambdabot> crud
20:21:13 <lambdabot> n 1: heavy wet snow that is unsuitable for skiing
20:21:13 <lambdabot> 2: any substance considered disgustingly foul or unpleasant
20:21:13 <lambdabot> [syn: {filth}, {crud}, {skank}]
20:21:14 <lambdabot> 3: an ill-defined bodily ailment; "he said he had the crud and
20:21:16 <lambdabot> needed a doctor"
20:21:25 <shachaf> Hmm, I don't see the nautical metaphor.
20:23:14 <int-e> I don't know how many of these VMs Gregor has... might be worth the money even with their lousy service, assuming the VMs run at all. (The fee, I understood, is per account, not per server)
20:23:20 <__kerbal__> What is CaC?
20:23:33 <wob_jonas> `? CaC
20:24:01 <int-e> http://www.cloudatacost.com/ ... oops, I mean http://www.cloudatcost.com/ (look at the former link though, it's a fun read)
20:24:40 <shachaf> I don't understand why it's called "at cost" and then charges you a one-time fee.
20:25:03 <pikhq> To be frank, you could probably get a better experience hanging a Pi off a cable modem.
20:25:21 <Gregor> int-e: Yeah, it's still SLIGHTLY worth it for me, but I have been slowly moving things away.
20:25:41 <shachaf> Is that supposed to be the full discounted cost?
20:25:54 <shachaf> Maybe you should move it all to Google Cloud.
20:26:02 <shachaf> Unlike fizzie you're permitted to use it.
20:26:03 <int-e> shachaf: I always thought it was a pyramid scheme.
20:26:15 <int-e> Well, Ponzi may be closer. But fraudulent anyway.
20:27:15 <__kerbal__> int-e: Thanks
20:28:03 <__kerbal__> So, they will give you a virtual server for a pittance? That sounds scammy
20:28:14 <shachaf> The trick to learning Chinese characters is that it's easy to remember them if you invent several new characters for each one you memorize.
20:28:19 <shachaf> It's a Hanzi scheme.
20:28:27 <pikhq> It's also a pittance of a virtual server.
20:28:55 <__kerbal__> They must have REALLY bad service, then
20:28:56 <Gregor> It's not really a scam, it just is really "you get what you pay for", particularly in terms of uptime and support.
20:29:05 <__kerbal__> I see
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20:30:19 <shachaf> More of a scow than a scam.
20:30:54 <APic> Moscow?
20:31:37 <shachaf> Moscow moproblems
20:32:43 <int-e> . o O ( their order form includes scripts from fraudlabspro.com ... too funny in context )
20:32:46 <APic> 😎
20:34:50 <wob_jonas> `wisdom
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20:35:34 <int-e> but the part that I do consider fraudulent is that they don't mention the yearly fee anywhere in the order form, calling it "one time" payment (quotation marks are theirs, for what it's worth). You still have to read their terms of service up to point 9.18 to find out about them. Though 1.b.iii) should make you wary: "CloudatCost reserves the right to change fees or charges without notice to...
20:35:39 <int-e> ...you. Your continued use of the Service after a change in fees shall constitute your acceptance of such change in fees."
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20:36:07 <__kerbal__> HackEgo is also offline
20:36:16 <int-e> same VM, I believe
20:36:24 <int-e> (VPS, whatever)
20:37:35 <__kerbal__> Are wikia wiki's in the cloud?
20:37:55 <__kerbal__> (Of course, they are really slow to load from all the ads)
20:38:21 <int-e> "cloud" is such a vague term.
20:38:59 <__kerbal__> It is
20:39:10 <wob_jonas> __kerbal__: not without javascript they aren't.
20:39:23 <__kerbal__> What do you mean?
20:39:27 <int-e> Some people will call any VPS a cloud server.
20:40:06 <__kerbal__> int-e: I guess I mean hosted at a server local to none of the users
20:40:14 <__kerbal__> but local to Wikia itself
20:40:37 <__kerbal__> wob_jonas: What do you mean?
20:43:47 <int-e> who knows where they actually are... they use the fastly CDN
20:44:12 <__kerbal__> ah
20:44:24 <__kerbal__> So much to learn
20:47:30 <__kerbal__> Has the wiki ever been backed up in the last few years? I know it did wiki-dumps at one point
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20:51:06 <int-e> But it seems that they are big enough that they should be running their own servers. Apparently they used to share wikimedia infrastructure.
20:51:17 <int-e> (they = wikia)
20:51:26 <oerjan> fizzie supposedly takes backups.
20:51:30 <int-e> I believe fizzie mentioned having backups
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21:06:03 <__kerbal__> fungot
21:06:03 <fungot> __kerbal__: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, i would firstly like to state this publicly.
21:06:19 <__kerbal__> I guess fungot is not on the affected server?
21:06:20 <fungot> __kerbal__: mr president, for me, of a multilateral system; that, thanks, purely, to trade barriers, combined with maintaining the key principles behind our proposals for decoupling and modulation of direct aid by the member states and to give farmers a long-term political perspective. this amendment is admissible. the french proposal refers only to judges in the criminal law and criminal procedure. in cases where the offences
21:07:27 <oerjan> fungot is not cloudy at all
21:07:27 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, i have no difficulty in accepting this, we should consider reducing the level of contamination. while some had a legitimate purpose to improve financial management. it now remains to be seen in this house.
21:07:58 <__kerbal__> What is the contamination, fungot?
21:07:58 <fungot> __kerbal__: madam president, the commission underlined the fact that it would be sending out a completely negative signal and a sombre message. more attention to this deficiency, as i have said, the adoption of the framework for the european union
21:08:55 <__kerbal__> is the president a mr or a madam? Make up your mind, fungot
21:08:55 <fungot> __kerbal__: mr president, it is something which will help control greenhouse gases in the european commission' s policy is not a priority.
21:09:43 <__kerbal__> Ok, so I guess that the contamination is "greenhouse gases in the european commission' s policy." Good to know
21:11:01 <oerjan> now we know what all that hot air really is
21:12:39 <__kerbal__> That explains so much!
21:13:35 <int-e> are you talking about belching and farting?
21:14:48 <__kerbal__> Maybe the eurocommission is composed of cows
21:19:15 <wob_jonas> I think the esowiki only broke a few days ago though
21:20:15 <__kerbal__> I think it's been up until today
21:21:11 <int-e> . o O ( `learn Calculus is mostly derivative. )
21:22:00 <__kerbal__> `? calculus
21:22:23 <int-e> it's not there.
21:22:24 <__kerbal__> Oh, right. HackEgo is integral to accessing wisdoms
21:22:41 <wob_jonas> .oO( https://www.xkcd.com/626/ )
21:23:14 <int-e> hackego timed out about 9 hours ago.
21:23:26 <wob_jonas> __kerbal__: to writing them. for reading them, there's a separately hosted pdf file. wisdom/pdf has the url of that file.
21:23:38 <int-e> __kerbal__: "integral", nice. (even if accidental)
21:23:57 <wob_jonas> (it might also be in the topic)
21:24:37 <__kerbal__> int-e: I actually did intend to make that pun...
21:24:50 <__kerbal__> Man, we're on a weird tangent
21:25:18 <int-e> You just had to use an ellipsis there.
21:26:24 <__kerbal__> Are you the determinant of my writing style?
21:26:32 <__kerbal__> (That linear algebra one was a bit forced)
21:26:53 <fizzie> I do have backups. Most recently from Tuesday.
21:27:43 <fizzie> I've used them to set up a temporary read-only copy on one of my own machines twice, when we've been having Problems.
21:29:16 <fizzie> @metar EGLL
21:29:17 <lambdabot> EGLL 062020Z AUTO 29007KT 9999 NCD 27/15 Q1012 NOSIG
21:29:28 <fizzie> It's so hot these days. :/
21:29:44 <__kerbal__> Permit me to make one more.
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21:30:09 <__kerbal__> The wiki's eigenvalues are imaginary of control
21:30:25 <fizzie> I've also got a copy in a bank vault back in Finland, but that's not updated more than maybe once a year.
21:30:46 <__kerbal__> Ok, THAT made no sense whatsoever
21:31:04 <__kerbal__> I need to work on my math jokes
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21:32:53 <wob_jonas> bank vault?
21:34:10 <fizzie> I don't know what the English term for it is for one of those little locker boxes you rent from a bank.
21:34:24 <fizzie> Safe-deposit box?
21:34:50 <fizzie> "A safe-deposit box lives within the vault of a federally insured bank or credit union."
21:34:53 <fizzie> That sounds like it.
21:35:29 <wob_jonas> yeah, but those cost a shitton to rent
21:35:40 <fizzie> Well, I've got one of them anyway.
21:35:53 <fizzie> I do have other things in there than just the Esolangs wiki backup.
21:36:19 <fizzie> (It's also something like... between 5-10 euros a month?)
21:37:13 <fizzie> I seem to recall from the logs that a few people do a periodic copy of the XML dump we publish, so the wiki *contents* are probably quite redundantly stored. But my copies are likely the only ones with user accounts included.
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23:55:23 <boily> `w
23:57:42 <boily> oh.
2017-07-07
00:01:52 <fizzie> I set up the read-only backup copy, with two caveats. Firstly, I still hadn't changed the TTLs, so it will take up to a day for the DNS change to propagate. Secondly, the TLS certificate on it has expired, and I can't letsencrypt a new one until the DNS changes go through.
00:02:36 <fizzie> But you may be able to browse the wiki at http://esolangs.zem.fi/
00:07:29 -!- jaboja has joined.
00:07:30 <fizzie> Now I need some sort of a way to notice when (if) it comes back up, so I know how to undo this.
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00:41:35 <Hoolootwo> works for me
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01:37:15 <tswe_tt> It just occurred to me that I can probably kill Warrigal.
01:39:03 <tswe_tt> Oh, Warrigal isn't a registered nickname.
01:39:08 <tswe_tt> I can do this, however...
01:39:09 -!- tswe_tt has changed nick to tswett.
01:40:15 <boily> tswarrigello_tt.
01:40:22 <boily> meanwhile, MWAH AH AH AH AH.
01:40:30 <boily> firestarter. I *love* that artifact.
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01:42:37 <alercah> which game?
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01:46:27 <boily> hellorcah. DCSS!
01:46:41 <boily> everything explodes everywhere! ludicrous flaming gibs!
01:46:50 <boily> MWAH AH AH AH AH AH AH AH!!!
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02:33:16 <shachaf> ski: whoa whoa whoa
02:33:28 <shachaf> hi
02:34:54 <ski> hello shachaf
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02:35:10 <shachaf> how'z jamz
02:35:17 <shachaf> long time no ski
02:37:14 <ski> atm i'm rather sleepy. about to head for bed
02:37:26 <shachaf> @time ski
02:37:27 <lambdabot> Local time for ski is Fri Jul 7 03:37:26 2017
02:37:31 <shachaf> sgtm
02:37:40 <ski> say again ?
02:37:40 <shachaf> g'niski
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02:45:15 <doesthiswork> bckw is more intuitive
02:48:57 <shachaf> ski is p. intuitive
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03:05:35 <imode> is the wiki being hijacked?
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03:22:37 <Hoolootwo> it's down, I believe
03:22:49 <Hoolootwo> http://esolangs.zem.fi/ is a mirror
03:23:00 <Hoolootwo> not sure why it's down, though
03:23:49 <imode> I'm getting cert errors when trying to connect to it.
03:24:14 <imode> annnd it's back up.
03:24:44 <fizzie> I've put up a local, read-only copy.
03:25:08 <fizzie> 00:01 <fizzie> I set up the read-only backup copy, with two caveats. Firstly, I still hadn't changed the TTLs, so it will take up to a day for the DNS change to propagate. Secondly, the TLS certificate on it has expired, and I can't letsencrypt a new one until the DNS changes go through.
03:25:23 <fizzie> Hence the certificate issues.
03:25:41 <imode> ah.
03:26:19 <fizzie> (The VPS it normally runs on is being unresponsive.)
03:27:41 <fizzie> https://www.reddit.com/r/CloudAtCost/comments/6llch0/all_servers_down_panelcloudatcostcom_not_available/
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03:33:20 <imode> well this looks like a scam....
03:34:35 <fizzie> There's really nothing new about that, but we've been coasting by with what we've got.
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03:35:11 <shachaf> Nothing new about it looking like a scam?
03:35:13 <shachaf> coastatcost
03:35:21 <fizzie> (Also I don't own the VPS, I just run the wiki on it. So I don't e.g. have access to that control panel, even if it was working.)
03:36:42 <fizzie> On the positive side, I managed to renew the certificate (the temporary DNS changes had propagated to whatever letsencrypt used for the domain validation), so if you're getting the non-broken address, https://esolangs.org/ should be working again.
03:40:10 <fizzie> I'd give CaC reasonable chances of still coming back from the dead. It was down for a few days a while back as well, but reappeared.
03:42:32 <shachaf> has it clawed its way back from the dead before
03:42:35 <shachaf> clawedatcost
03:49:23 <pikhq> I'd be a bit questionable, considering that all-of-a-sudden $9 service charge seems like *exactly* the sort of thing you do when your business model has failed utterly.
03:49:42 <pikhq> Along with reports that people have had trouble cancelling service.
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03:51:30 <ais523> what was their original plan for making money?
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03:52:45 <shachaf> Charge people a bunch of money and then turn off the service after a while?
03:52:46 -!- keemyb has joined.
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03:52:57 <shachaf> Or scam them with a monthly fee that you add on without telling them.
03:53:12 <pikhq> Unclear.
03:54:05 <fizzie> As I understand it, they're corporationally part of something that does make money, or at least in partnership with.
03:54:18 <fizzie> http://ventures.fibernetics.ca/cloud-at-cost/
03:54:20 <fizzie> That thing.
03:54:26 <shachaf> fizzie: Ah, so it's like most of Alphabet?
03:54:39 <pikhq> They might've assumed they could be able to get enough word of mouth that more regular-cost-structure services could take off later?
03:54:47 <fizzie> I don't know if their business model can be understood in isolation, but I also don't know how it would make sense in conjunction with Fibernetics either.
03:56:28 <fizzie> "It began as part of an internal side project aimed at rekindling the entrepreneurial spirit within an established 200-employee tech company. Less than a year later, Cloud at Cost – a hosting service with a $35 one-time fee and no monthly bill – has raked in $1 million without any marketing, and injected fresh energy into Fibernetics, --"
03:56:33 <fizzie> http://news.communitech.ca/columns/cloud-at-cost-injects-fibernetics-with-startup-energy
03:56:56 <fizzie> That was written when the "no monthly bill" part was more true.
03:57:50 <shachaf> Maybe their business model should be not to allow anyone in Europe to use their services.
03:58:58 <fizzie> "The 11,000-square-foot facility boasts a data centre filled with servers and related equipment Fibernetics was able to acquire at deep discounts, and a rooftop solar array that generates more power than the operation uses. The servers access the same network upon which Fibernetics’ Internet and phone business is based. -- “That really gave us the unfair advantage to go ahead against other [cloud]
03:59:04 <fizzie> companies that have to pay for space and power and Internet and all those things.”"
04:01:58 <fizzie> I wouldn't mind running the thing on something more reasonable, but that would involve paying money, and I've already gotten into discussions re fronting the bill for the domain. VPSes tend to be about an order of magnitude more expensive than domains.
04:03:28 <pikhq> All that said, it's entirely possible that all that's going on is they've had issues and the entire side project is a very low priority.
04:05:11 <fizzie> Anyhoo, time to go sweat^W sleep.
04:05:16 <fizzie> (It's 27 degrees indoors.)
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04:53:16 <Hoolootwo> how much data does it use?
04:54:14 <Hoolootwo> I don't think I can currently volunteer to host it, maybe once I get a server into a colo somwhere
04:54:48 <ais523> Hoolootwo: with MediaWiki the problem is mostly CPU power, not bandwidth
04:54:54 <ais523> it's much more CPU-hungry than you might expect
04:55:03 <Hoolootwo> oh, I didn't realize that
04:55:55 <Hoolootwo> why does it use so much?
04:56:31 <ais523> my guess is that it's fairly badly written, and in PHP at that (which is not the most optimized language)
04:58:05 <shachaf> Maybe they should switch to Hack.
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05:21:11 <imode> has there ever been any practical two dimensional language?
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05:21:27 <imode> or N-dimensional where N > 1
05:21:48 <shachaf> Practical or merely not intended to be esoteric?
05:22:01 <imode> heh, both I suppose.
05:22:07 <shachaf> Epigram 2 was going to have 2-dimensional syntax.
05:22:15 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether that really counts.
05:22:38 <imode> 2D syntax huh? do you have some examples of it?
05:22:43 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigram_(programming_language)
05:22:54 <shachaf> Or maybe even Epigram 1 had it?
05:23:28 <imode> oh wow. so it actually has diagrams..
05:23:52 <shachaf> And of course there's http://www.eelis.net/C++/analogliterals.xhtml
05:24:03 <imode> hah. of course.
05:26:18 <imode> I've just been wondering if there's any use for a language with syntax/a computational model that can be extended to multiple dimensions.
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05:26:39 <imode> excel comes to mind. as does the TIS-100.
05:26:51 <shachaf> Both good examples.
05:27:03 <imode> but those only really showcase two dimensions.
05:28:00 <imode> something that springs to mind regarding 3D would be snapmap.
05:28:07 <imode> (in the recent Doom 2016.)
05:30:31 <shachaf> Do you count cellular automata as programming languages?
05:30:44 <imode> I suppose, but that's a little easy.
05:30:57 <shachaf> Aren't easy answers better than hard answers?
05:31:10 <shachaf> Are there any popular 3D cellular automata?
05:31:10 <imode> true, but often easy answers don't give way to deeper thought. :P
05:31:21 <shachaf> Also: Are there "automata" which are continuous?
05:31:26 <imode> apart from weird von-neumann-esq. CAs, not sure.
05:31:31 <imode> and yeah, smoothlife.
05:31:34 <shachaf> I think there are ones that have continuous cell states rather than a set number of colors.
05:31:40 <shachaf> But what about continuous cell boundaries?
05:31:52 <shachaf> I.e. a function or something rather than discrete cells.
05:31:53 <imode> here's another interesting question: code reuse, what happens in "space"?
05:32:13 <shachaf> I was thinking that there's nothing about Hashlife that particularly depends on discreteness.
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05:32:28 <shachaf> And in fact it's almost more suitable to continuous spaces.
05:32:40 <imode> hm..
05:33:01 <imode> yeah, you could use hashlife on smoothlife.
05:33:15 <wob_jonas> Actually Excel is more like 3-dimensional, not 2-dimensional, because it supports ranges spanning through worksheets, where the order of worksheets matter.
05:33:34 <imode> ah, I was curious if it supported that.
05:33:56 <shachaf> Oh, Smoothlife is not what I thought.
05:33:57 <wob_jonas> There's much more support for 2 dimensional stuff than for 3 dimensions, such as specific functions and operators, but still.
05:34:03 <imode> what happens to code reuse in higher-dimensional environments?
05:34:24 <shachaf> Does our universe, as far as we know, lend itself to Hashlife-style simulation?
05:34:51 <shachaf> The speed of light suggests that it might.
05:35:13 <shachaf> But quantum effects might not be compatible with locality.
05:35:56 <shachaf> But if so, they're incompatible in a very particular way. Maybe it's a way that can still be simulated efficiently?
05:43:42 <imode> what would be REALLY interesting is an N-dimensional language adapted to an arbitrary vector space.
05:43:56 <imode> control flow becomes transformations.
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05:45:22 <Cale> imode: That's... pretty much a quantum computer
05:45:28 <imode> :D
05:45:41 <Cale> Not quite an arbitrary vector space there, but arbitrary dimension anyway
05:50:33 <imode> my problem with languages with a spatial syntax is that it's hard to include/replicate code.
05:51:00 <imode> I can only imagine the horrors of constructing CA-based programs. incredibly fragile things.
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05:55:37 <shachaf> Constructing physics-based programs is also pretty tricky.
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06:05:41 <imode> I could believe that you could turn any N-dimensional program into a traditional, textual program by the inclusion of coordinates/bounding boxes.
06:05:57 <imode> (x, y, z, <object>), ...
06:06:24 <imode> that way you could design the program and serialize it.
06:12:25 <shachaf> imode: just store it as a quadtree like hashlife hth
06:12:42 <imode> ayyyy.
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08:25:44 * imode still wonders how code re-use would work in a higher dimensional language.
08:27:26 <imode> with traditional programs you can just bolt multiple code segments together and give a couple entry points.
08:27:55 <imode> gluing together segments of a plane isn't as.. easy. you need to have some sort of isolation.
08:31:09 <shachaf> Isn't a similar thing true in a one-dimensional language like bf as well?
08:32:21 <shachaf> A traditional program is something like a graph, where you can make an edge pointing to any name.
08:32:41 <shachaf> I suppose you could have a 2D language that requires the graph to be planar.
08:32:53 <imode> you'd end up with something like wireworld.
08:33:08 <imode> maybe something like an N-dimensional excel.
08:33:43 <imode> where regions of space can be occupied by code with its own instruction pointer.
08:35:03 <imode> I remember seeing a "robust-first computing" video or something where the guy designed a filter out of small probabilistic particles... lemme get that.
08:40:49 <imode> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=helScS3coAE quite long, but an interesting take on "programming" with a virtual environment with inputs and outputs.
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10:21:37 <fizzie> Hmm. Still no worky.
10:26:53 -!- oerjan has set topic: Backup wiki at http://esolangs.zem.fi/ | vampiric manatees | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
10:27:22 -!- oerjan has set topic: Backup wiki (readonly) at http://esolangs.zem.fi/ | vampiric manatees | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
10:28:24 -!- oerjan has set topic: Backup wiki (readonly) at http://esolangs.zem.fi/ | mermaid umpires | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
10:36:03 <fizzie> shachaf: "In the European Union and Russia, Google Cloud Platform services can be used only for business purposes." Hey, maybe Brexit means I can use it.
10:36:16 <oerjan> heh
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11:10:08 <wob_jonas> Speedrunning stuff: Summer Games Done Quick crew has already started to upload videos of the first games of SGDQ to youtube. After SGDQ, there are more speedrunning marathons this summer:
11:11:21 <wob_jonas> handheld heroes (gameboy games, on in second half of twitch.tv/speedgaming , no physical conference) starting 2017-07-15, then ESA (European Speedrun Assembly) in july in Vaxjö, then I hear there's something in august in america.
11:11:24 <fizzie> There have been bootleg copies of the SGDQ runs in YouTube for a while already. ;)
11:11:38 <wob_jonas> fizzie: sure, encodes of the twitch videos
11:11:55 <wob_jonas> but these are the first official encodes (I'm not sure if they're the final official encodes)
11:12:38 <fizzie> There's that thing which does them automatically, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfqRJEB9cDt4j_RqRXg0ABA/videos
11:12:54 <fizzie> TBH, watching them like that was preferrable to watching Twitch in real time, it was freezing for seconds all the time. At least when I tried.
11:14:04 <wob_jonas> twitch freezes less if you load the player.twitch.tv frame directly. the horrible part of twitch is the chat and other wobsite elements that often freeze your browser completely.
11:14:35 <fizzie> The official ones are in a playlist that has "Raw Stream" in the name... though on the other hand, that's the case for AGDQ 2017 as well.
11:15:10 <wob_jonas> at least in some older years, the final official encodes were on archive.org
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11:36:42 <boily> @metar CYUL
11:36:43 <lambdabot> CYUL 071029Z 23009KT 180V250 3/4SM R24R/P6000FT/U R24L/P6000FT/U +TSRA BKN009 OVC018CB 21/19 A2979 RMK SF5CB3 PRESRR SLP090 DENSITY ALT 1000FT
11:37:05 <boily> no TSRA here. it's gonna rain.
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12:34:35 <__kerbal__> The wiki's back!
12:34:37 -!- __kerbal__ has quit (Changing host).
12:34:37 -!- __kerbal__ has joined.
12:34:37 -!- __kerbal__ has quit (Changing host).
12:34:37 -!- __kerbal__ has joined.
12:35:18 <__kerbal__> And you made a backup mirror!
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13:01:05 <fizzie> It's not really back.
13:01:10 <fizzie> What you see is the copy.
13:01:37 <fizzie> (You should get a sad message if you try to edit something.)
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13:27:08 <__kerbal__> fizzie: so this is just the mirror?
13:27:20 <wob_jonas> yes, a read-only mirror
13:28:41 <__kerbal__> Strangely, typing in esolangs.org now gets me nowhere. I used to get the wiki.
13:28:49 <__kerbal__> (even if it was the read-only version)
13:29:00 <__kerbal__> I can access the mirror just fine
13:31:49 <__kerbal__> What does "mermaid umpires" mean?
13:32:24 <__kerbal__> There's also been "vampiric manatees" and something involving a hypercantata or something like that
13:37:09 <wob_jonas> kerbal: dunno, after the Rat Samurai of the Kamigawa block, I'm not so easy to surprise by unusual race role combinations.
13:49:25 <fizzie> __kerbal__: It will take a while for the DNS change (to make esolangs.org point at the copy) to reach everywhere, and until it does, you might get different results from the caches of different nameservers.
13:49:48 <__kerbal__> ah
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13:56:24 <__kerbal__> Has anyone ever created an esoteric markup language?
14:07:32 <doesthiswork> tex
14:21:37 <__kerbal__> besides that
14:31:55 <wob_jonas> when I returned to the airport by train, at one point I was sitting in a small compartment of 8 seats with 4 other people, all 4 having a laptop in front of them
14:32:07 <wob_jonas> apparently everyone works on a laptop during traveling there
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14:47:06 <wob_jonas> ais523: hi
14:47:18 <ais523> hi
14:47:30 <wob_jonas> there was something I wanted to ask you about M:tG rules
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15:06:30 <__kerbal__> The redirect to the wiki now works
15:06:40 <__kerbal__> for me, at least
15:08:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: In M:tG rules, basically I want to know how linked abilities work when a permanent gets them indirectly. Take the abilities of Synod Sanctum or Muse Vessel for example. Another permanent could get the abils indirectly through copy effects including cytoshape, or Quicksilver Elemental effects.
15:09:14 <wob_jonas> If I use the first ability to exile an object, then something happens with the indirect (possibly multiply indirect way) how this permanent gets its abilities, when can I still use the second ability to access the exiled card(s)?
15:11:17 <wob_jonas> For example, if you get the ability through Experiment Kraj, what happens if (a) the original Synod Sanctum loses all +1/+1 counters then regains them (b) the Sanctum phases out then phases in (c) the Sanctum dies then another Sanctum etb and gets a counter,
15:12:26 <wob_jonas> (d) the Sanctum gets Turned to Frog then back, (e) the Kraj gets Turned to Frog then back, ... and lots of other possibilities.
15:13:15 <wob_jonas> Simliarly, if a bear gets the Sanctum abilities through Cytoshape, the shape times out then in a later turn I Cytoshape the bear back to the same Sanctum, can I access the cards?
15:14:00 <wob_jonas> I'd like to know a general rule of when linked abilities can access the exiled card or similar when a permanent gets linked abilities indirectly.
15:22:39 <__kerbal__> Is War (the card game) guaranteed to halt?
15:23:23 <__kerbal__> If the cards given to each player at the start are non-random
15:24:10 <__kerbal__> (sorry, this M:tG thing got me thinking about the M:tG TC proof, which made me wonder about this)
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15:42:48 <wob_jonas> ais523: still here?
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15:50:59 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes, just don't really have anything to say
15:51:03 <ais523> I'm not an expert in M:tG rules
15:51:18 <wob_jonas> ok
15:59:29 <__kerbal__> I think that a war game could be abstracted to a set of queues where every queue stores instructions
15:59:37 <wob_jonas> but then who's the M:tG rules expert on this channel then?
15:59:49 <wob_jonas> is it zzo38?
16:00:15 <__kerbal__> correction: every queue stores a set of integers
16:00:34 <__kerbal__> that are the inputs of the only instruction in War
16:03:09 <__kerbal__> this instruction basically takes a set of integers, where the position of the integer in the set corresponds to the queue (so the 1st integer is for the first queue) and writes the set to the queue corresponding to the largest integer in the set.
16:03:14 <__kerbal__> I think
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16:04:29 <__kerbal__> Of course, to make War deterministic you must specify the order in which the set is written to the queue, which is not specified by some War rules I have seen
16:06:36 <__kerbal__> Assuming a 2 player game, you get two stacks
16:06:44 <__kerbal__> correction: queues
16:07:41 <__kerbal__> I think, then, that War is a OISC
16:07:53 <__kerbal__> with two stacks
16:08:33 <__kerbal__> the question is, then, will War (or a precisely defined variant thereof) halt?
16:08:50 <__kerbal__> (I mean queues above)
16:09:04 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:09:16 <__kerbal__> Where War is defined broadly as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_(card_game)
16:18:31 <ais523> [1,4] vs [3,2]; [4,1,3] vs [2]; [1,3] vs [4,2]; [3,1,4] vs [2]; [1,4] vs [3,2]; repeat
16:18:42 <ais523> admittedly this uses a fairly asymmetrical gather order (always player 1 above player 2)
16:26:06 <__kerbal__> ais523: Could you explain your queue notation? I'm a bit confused (my apologies)
16:26:15 <ais523> __kerbal__: head of the queue is at the left end
16:27:15 <__kerbal__> If 3 won the battle against 1, why didn't the second player get 1?
16:28:42 <__kerbal__> Or are 3 and 1 not being compared?
16:30:22 <wob_jonas> __kerbal__: ais523 is a mathematician, not a card gamer, so lower number wins in his notation.
16:31:14 <__kerbal__> oh, ok. That threw me off
16:31:57 <__kerbal__> So it appears that, for some starting values, War will never halt
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16:35:30 <__kerbal__> Is War TC?
16:36:25 <ais523> no, finite storage
16:36:58 <__kerbal__> True.
16:38:02 <__kerbal__> What about a variant in which "war" events create an extra card, namely the lowest value in the facedown cards?
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16:40:21 <__kerbal__> [1,3,5,7] vs [1,2,3,8]; 2 is generated and given to the winner
16:40:46 <wob_jonas> huhwhat
16:41:02 <__kerbal__> Basically, a way of getting around finite storage\
16:41:07 <__kerbal__> by generating cards
16:41:18 <ais523> this is starting to get into xigxag territory, now
16:41:23 <ais523> i.e. probably not TC but it's going to be a pain to prove
16:42:43 <__kerbal__> So, we need a consistent notation first...
16:42:56 <__kerbal__> Do small or large numbers win?
16:43:10 <ais523> small in my notation
16:43:11 <wob_jonas> ais523: like the Last ReSort?
16:43:27 <ais523> wob_jonas: nah, I think Last ReSort probably /is/ TC but it's going to be a pain to prove
16:43:33 <ais523> I might be wrong, though
16:43:39 <ais523> in either case
16:43:49 <wob_jonas> oh, xigxag was that language that's like a tag system with two symbols or something
16:45:24 <wob_jonas> hmm, is there even a simple proof that iterated McCulloch's second machine isn't TC?
16:45:29 <ais523> xigxag has two symbols, < and >, but it isn't like a tag system
16:45:49 <ais523> each step, a < is replaced by a copy of everything to its left, a > is replaced by a copy of everything to its right
16:45:59 <ais523> it's been proven that all nontrivial programs grow exponentially but that really doesn't state anything about TCness
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17:04:07 <int-e> does it have a universal generator g in the sense that every string of <s and >s occurs as a substring in some successor of g?
17:05:00 <ais523> huh, interesting question
17:05:03 <ais523> I'm not sure if that's been explored yet
17:13:35 <\oren\> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
17:14:09 <\oren\> a call to system() is O(n) in the size of the calling process!!!!!!
17:14:13 <\oren\> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
17:15:30 <ais523> \oren\: you're on a UNIX-alike with a broken vfork?
17:16:36 <wob_jonas> \oren\: yes, in some large server programs forking can be a bottleneck, in which case you can prefork (and optionally exec) a separate small process whose job is to fork children.
17:16:52 <wob_jonas> Preforking has other advantages too, such as not having to worry about strange process state getting copied and accidentally causing hard to debug problems in the descendants.
17:18:15 <\oren\> wob_jonas: we are basically doeing that now
17:18:45 <\oren\> (except the "process whose job it is to fork children" is just a shell script)
17:19:12 <ais523> \oren\: seriously, though, what OS are you on?
17:19:17 <\oren\> Linux
17:19:45 <ais523> Linux has a bunch of forking optimizations, and doesn't need to copy the entire state of the program on a fork
17:20:05 <ais523> vfork is just seen as a clue to the scheduler there, rather than to the MMU, because a regular fork is already efficient enough
17:20:12 <ais523> however, I wonder if it nonetheless has to copy the page table?
17:20:23 <ais523> that's way smaller than memory generally, but it's still O(n) in the size of the process, just about
17:20:29 <ais523> I'd have expected the constant factor to be larger though
17:20:39 <\oren\> yeah and this process has a ton of mmapped files
17:21:18 <\oren\> and it was calling system() several times a second
17:22:33 <wob_jonas> \oren\: was it at least calling system for something useful that's hard to replace, or for something silly like system("clear")?
17:22:56 <ais523> calling system() several times a second tends to be slow regardless of who's calling it
17:23:26 <\oren\> sprintf(s,"rm %s",filename);system(s);
17:23:48 <\oren\> ...yeeeak
17:24:19 <\oren\> never mind what will heppen if filename contains a space
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17:25:27 <\oren\> luckily this code never runs in prod
17:25:33 <\oren\> only when testing
17:25:57 <int-e> so glibc's system uses this to fork on linux: # define FORK() INLINE_SYSCALL (clone, 3, CLONE_PARENT_SETTID | SIGCHLD, 0, &pid) ... CLONE_VM is not set so yes it'll make a, more or less, copy of the page tables.
17:26:35 <int-e> . o O ( hmm, that's from 2012. )
17:26:43 * int-e goes find a current version
17:27:34 <ais523> how does exec() interact with threads?
17:28:30 <int-e> I'm more curious about vfork and threads
17:31:15 <int-e> okay, current glibc still does the same thing.
17:31:36 <ais523> int-e: I'd assume that on Linux at least, vfork just prevents other threads running until the exec/_exit
17:31:57 <ais523> because on Linux, the only difference between fork and vfork is in how the scheduler reacts
17:32:05 <ais523> BSD might be more interesting, though
17:32:11 <ais523> although I assume it does threads quite differently from Linux
17:34:49 <int-e> interestingly, posix_spawn seems to use vfork (CLONE_VM | CLONE_VFORK); but they go out of their way to set up a new stack.
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17:36:01 <int-e> (on linux; the generic posix implementation is based around fork())
17:42:49 <int-e> three steps further into the rabbit hole... is system() guaranteed to run atfork handlers? https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=112517 says no.
17:43:22 <ais523> I wouldn't expect that guarantee to exist
17:44:02 <ais523> you'd expect system to be implemented via posix_spawn nowadays
17:44:09 <ais523> which has no reason to call an atfork
17:44:30 <wob_jonas> int-e: ah! atfork. good idea.
17:46:19 <wob_jonas> at one point I was wondering how in a multithread program when I fork-exec and want to have the children inherit a specific file handle, how I could make sure another thread doesn't system (or popen) at just the wrong time and inherit that handle.
17:46:29 <wob_jonas> This was on window, so fork wasn't actually involved sadly.
17:47:20 <wob_jonas> The implementation of popen itself makes sure the handles it creatures aren't inherited by other calls to popen by locking on a mutex, but that mutex isn't in the documented API so you can't reference them from user code.
17:48:59 <wob_jonas> An atfork handle would be ideal for locking on a similar mutex you create.
17:49:09 <wob_jonas> no wait, that wouldn't work
17:49:20 <wob_jonas> you have to lock the mutex before you fork and unlock after you fork
17:49:25 <wob_jonas> an atfork handler can't do that
17:49:34 <wob_jonas> or can it?
17:52:03 <int-e> "The expected usage is that the prepare handler acquires all mutex locks and the other two fork handlers release them." http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/pthread_atfork.html
17:53:35 <wob_jonas> WTF that's not something I expected to hear: a game where they play the US version because the japanese version has longer dialog (on SGDQ)
17:54:19 <int-e> mm, lazy localization?
17:54:44 <wob_jonas> I don't know
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18:26:07 <wob_jonas> hi oerjan
18:34:43 <\oren\> int-e: I HATE LAZY TRANSLATORS
18:34:54 <\oren\> REEEEEE
18:35:54 <int-e> @quote lazy
18:35:54 <lambdabot> malig says: quantum mechanics actually strikes me as less wierd than lazy evaluation sometimes. at least it disallows time travel
18:36:45 <int-e> fungot: do you hit people?
18:36:47 <fungot> int-e: madam president, i thank the president-in-office for that answer, president-in-office. we would welcome coordination of the council's willingness to consider aid for research and innovation, which is based on an arsenal of sanctions which will have considerable social and environmental jobs; encouraging public and private research expenditure is continuing or picking up in the forthcoming session, which were not kept to.
18:40:11 <wob_jonas> int-e: but there's one way he can hit people
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18:43:17 <oerjan> hi wob_jonas
18:44:27 <\oren\> ARGH
18:44:39 <\oren\> I need a #include_if_exists
18:44:54 <wob_jonas> \oren\: we have that these days in C
18:45:01 <wob_jonas> not spelled that way, but still
18:45:13 <wob_jonas> #ifdef __has_include or some such thing, I don't recall
18:45:22 <wob_jonas> most C compilers have it by now
18:45:40 <wob_jonas> they're even putting it to the c++ standard, though I don't really like that idea
18:45:52 <\oren\> oooh hooray!
18:46:21 <oerjan> wob_jonas: *into
18:46:24 <\oren\> yeah this is just to have a "defines_for_testing.h" folder
18:46:39 <oerjan> or possibly in
18:46:44 <\oren\> which will exist when I want to change some numbers for testing
18:46:55 <FireFly> <wob_jonas> WTF that's not something I expected to hear: a game where they play the US version because the japanese version has longer dialog (on SGDQ) ← huh, that's a new one
18:47:03 <wob_jonas> um, actually #if __has_include rather than ifdef
18:47:19 <FireFly> Although, at least in one case I've seen french or spanish be the quickest (although I'm not sure if that game had japanese localisation)
18:47:50 <wob_jonas> FireFly: that's GTA-3, but it's quicker for reasons other than just dialog length
18:47:57 <FireFly> ah
18:48:34 <FireFly> oh, I was thinking of another game FWIW, I was thinking of Guacamelee
18:49:08 <wob_jonas> or maybe GTA Vice City. iirc it's because the french version censors the rampange missions, and runs in some categories use that and replay bugs (of which the PC version has a shitton of crazy ones) to get something crazy by switching langugaes
18:49:09 <FireFly> I want to say at least one Zelda game was fastest in some european language too
18:49:21 <FireFly> although that could also be for non-dialogue-length version differences
18:49:40 <wob_jonas> FireFly: I'm not surprised if something is faster in English than in Japanese, I'm only surprised if it's because of dialog length
18:49:53 <FireFly> right
18:50:53 <wob_jonas> the reason why Japanese version is usually faster is the PAL vs NTSC difference, but that doesn't apply to either GTA on PC, nor to the portable console game that spawned my surprise this time
18:52:05 <FireFly> Well, or version differences such as bugs exclusive to one language
18:52:21 <wob_jonas> but I think say game boy pokemon red/blue are faster in japanese because of dialog length
18:52:24 <wob_jonas> I'm not quite sure
18:52:41 <wob_jonas> some zelda games too
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18:54:05 <FireFly> Yeah, certainly… although I believe OoT is fastest in chinese (so, the iQue version)
18:54:07 <pikhq> For Japanese vs. English, PAL vs NTSC shouldn't be relevant basically ever.
18:54:22 <pikhq> Unless the game never got a US release.
18:54:22 <FireFly> Because US is also NTSC?
18:54:25 <pikhq> Yup.
18:54:29 <wob_jonas> oh right, that's confusing
18:54:45 <pikhq> NTSC is the American spec that Japan also adopted.
18:54:47 <wob_jonas> yeah, NTSC is in japan and america, PAL in western europe
18:54:58 <wob_jonas> (it's more complicated than that, but that's the main idea)
18:55:17 <pikhq> And for purposes of *most* video games, it's really a question of being 50 or 60 Hz.
18:55:48 <pikhq> With region coding being relevant for some consoles, but that doesn't really effect the performance of the game.
18:56:14 <pikhq> I think the 2600 was the one console where SECAM versions could justifiably be written differently than PAL?
18:56:24 <wob_jonas> and they have different display resolution, making it even harder to port games
18:56:40 <wob_jonas> PAL and NTSC have different resolution that is
18:56:48 <wob_jonas> 2600 had a SECAM version?
18:56:49 <wob_jonas> nice
18:56:52 <pikhq> Yep!
18:57:02 <wob_jonas> I mean, the 2600 is before my time
18:57:13 <pikhq> Though many PAL releases just used the NTSC resolution and let there be a bunch of black pixels.
18:57:28 <wob_jonas> pikhq: on what console?
18:57:38 <pikhq> NES, particularly.
18:57:44 <wob_jonas> I see
18:57:58 <pikhq> Though, rather a *lot* of consoles did the same thing for PAL ports of NTSC games.
18:58:39 <pikhq> Especially for ones that'd run an NTSC ROM perfectly fine on PAL hardware, just slower.
18:59:09 <pikhq> These weren't exactly great PAL ports, but let's be real, a lot of companies just didn't give a shit.
18:59:57 <pikhq> The SECAM 2600 was actually kinda hilarious.
19:00:05 <pikhq> It had an 8 color pallete.
19:00:09 <pikhq> *palette
19:00:14 <wob_jonas> what
19:00:39 <wob_jonas> wouldn't that make it a much worse console than the 2600 then?
19:00:47 <pikhq> Well, yes.
19:02:05 <pikhq> Oh. The reason is they never produced a SECAM TIA chip at all.
19:02:17 <wob_jonas> what
19:02:22 <wob_jonas> how would it work then?
19:02:36 <pikhq> They just used a quick hack on the PAL TIA chip's luminance output to output color signals based on the luma value.
19:02:48 <pikhq> And *just* output the PAL luma signal with that hack color signal.
19:03:05 <pikhq> And the reason they didn't bother, is the market size didn't merit it.
19:03:17 <pikhq> Because at the time the SECAM market they thought possible was *just* France.
19:03:28 <pikhq> (selling to the Soviet Union, in the early 80s? LOL.)
19:03:32 <wob_jonas> that I can understand
19:03:32 * FireFly . o O ( PAL is used in western europe and australia… although Eurovision would have you believe that australia is part of europe, so…)
19:04:09 <pikhq> Also fun, apparently France didn't really get custom ROMs to deal with that.
19:04:33 <pikhq> Instead, the B&W switch was overloaded somewhat.
19:04:45 <wob_jonas> `? PAL
19:04:58 <pikhq> PAL releases were expected to output luma-only when it was set to black and white.
19:05:06 <pikhq> And French 2600s had an always-on black and white switch.
19:06:56 <wob_jonas> were there any flagship games that did get custom ROM?
19:07:06 <pikhq> Dunno.
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19:09:48 <pikhq> Pfft, and some of the early SECAM 2600s were made SECAM with just some wires added on the board.
19:10:06 <pikhq> And presumably a local RF modulator.
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19:43:52 <oerjan> <wob_jonas> hmm, is there even a simple proof that iterated McCulloch's second machine isn't TC? <-- i never finished my analysis, it got complicated and i'd have to write a constraint solving program, but my _hunch_ is that the resulting "register machine" is too simple to be TC.
19:44:21 <wob_jonas> oerjan: ok
19:44:46 <oerjan> or put differently, it's not that simple, because it devolves into a register machine thing with ~6 registers.
19:45:08 <wob_jonas> integer registers?
19:45:26 <oerjan> natural numbers, they correspond to lengths of certain substrings.
19:45:34 <wob_jonas> ok
19:46:10 <zzo38> Is it possible to stream a recording to a DVD without needing to store it in RAM or a disk file?
19:46:12 <oerjan> or rather "number of subblocks" of certain substrings, i guess.
19:48:04 <wob_jonas> zzo38: um, where'd you put stuff if not in the ram?
19:48:30 <zzo38> On the DVD
19:49:13 <zzo38> The part that is currently recording may be stored in a buffer in RAM, but after that it shouldn't store everything and only a small part, to not take up too much RAM.
19:50:29 <wob_jonas> zzo38: and you want this with an ordinary DVD burner drive hardware, or custom drive?
19:51:06 <zzo38> With the ordinary DVD hardware
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19:58:42 <pikhq> zzo38: So you'd e.g. permit like a 2 meg buffer or some such, but that's about it?
19:58:58 <wob_jonas> 2 meg would be very small
19:59:01 <pikhq> I think that's possible, but dunno how easy it'd be to do.
19:59:20 <zzo38> Yes, something like that.
19:59:24 <wob_jonas> you can barely even fit a single frame of raw video in that
20:00:00 <pikhq> That's also nearly 2 seconds of output to a DVD burner at 1x speed.
20:00:01 <wob_jonas> you want lots more memory for compressing video
20:00:17 <pikhq> I was assuming that was the buffer from the encoder to the DVD burner.
20:00:43 <zzo38> That assumes that you are recording video onto the DVD; the data being recorded is not necessarily going to be video though
20:00:59 <pikhq> Though, do remember this is a *DVD*.
20:01:00 <wob_jonas> pikhq: oh, so 2 megs besides the hundreds of megs or something the video encoder itself uses?
20:01:33 <pikhq> A frame of *DVD* video raw doesn't take that much.
20:02:19 <zzo38> I was thinking that the data to record is not necessarily a video.
20:02:57 <wob_jonas> zzo38: ah
20:03:01 <pikhq> A full frame of DVD video at 4:2:2 is less than a meg.
20:03:03 <pikhq> Also, ah.
20:03:23 <wob_jonas> zzo38: and are you allowed to use a format on the dvd that requires a custom decoder software to read, as long as it doesn't have too much space overhead?
20:04:23 <pikhq> But yes, as far as I'm aware the only thing preventing you from writing a DVD *streaming* like you want is software, not hardware.
20:04:35 <pikhq> As far as the hardware's concerned it's burning bits out of a buffer.
20:04:45 <zzo38> I would have hope that you can just read it from /dev/dvdrom or whatever even if it isn't a filesystem
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20:05:08 <pikhq> wob_jonas: I think UDF, the common filesystem for DVDs, is actually designed to let you output it streaming.
20:05:16 <zzo38> I don't know if it is necessary to reduce the speed of the disc spinning either
20:05:29 <zzo38> (while recording; not while reading)
20:05:47 <pikhq> zzo38: It should only be a function of how fast you can shove bits at the thing.
20:06:12 <wob_jonas> zzo38: ordinary dvd writing already allows you to slow down the dvd or cd rotation, and we often use that option because it might make the disk last longer
20:06:36 <wob_jonas> I've always written my dvds at 4x speed even though the drive and disk could do 16x
20:06:47 <pikhq> It's also necessary to match the speed to the disk to some extent.
20:06:54 <zzo38> The only thing will be, what if the speed of the streaming is unknown or variable?
20:07:27 <pikhq> IIRC present-day burners are able to straight-up stop mid-burn to allow their buffer to fill up.
20:08:00 <wob_jonas> pikhq: stopping is easy. continuing is the hard part.
20:08:42 <zzo38> I thought that in order to be able to stop and continue at any time may be necessary to make it spin more slowly?
20:09:43 <zzo38> (Maybe you will need some kind of mark to indicate the address?)
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20:17:36 <zzo38> Is UDF design like that for use with DVD recorders that can record television shows?
20:40:36 <\oren\> http://imgur.com/a/akxyv
20:43:40 <pikhq> zzo38: Yes.
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20:55:23 <fizzie> Sanyo has a trandmark ("BURN-Proof™") and a patent for doing that sort of stop/resume on CDs, I think that was reasonably widely supported. And already at least a decade old by now.
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20:56:46 <fizzie> (Wikipedia claims that the DVD+R(W) formats have that as a standard thing.)
20:58:04 <shachaf> oh man
20:58:08 <shachaf> remember DVD-RAM?
20:59:08 <\oren\> yeah screencapped thru facebook for realism
20:59:09 <\oren\> https://snag.gy/QN8ivE.jpg
20:59:49 <fizzie> I do remember DVD-RAM, I think I might've gotten one disc alongside a "super multi" drive.
21:00:25 <fizzie> It didn't do the cartridge trick.
21:08:04 <APic> http://i.imgur.com/ywabaFb.gifv
21:12:59 <\oren\> APic: lol
21:16:51 <APic> 😉
21:20:16 <shachaf> fizzie: Did you decrease the TTL on esolangs.org?
21:20:35 <shachaf> Looks like you did.
21:20:39 <fizzie> I set it to 5 minutes, yes.
21:21:17 <fizzie> I was inspired by such industry giants as the Google, which also uses 300 seconds.
21:21:32 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, are you sure that's not confidential information?
21:21:41 <fizzie> It's like "dig google.com a".
21:21:49 <fizzie> It's hard to be confidential about that.
21:22:00 <shachaf> That's your TTL, but maybe my TTL is different.
21:22:11 <shachaf> Maybe you're at work and you're revealing information about the internal TTL.
21:22:13 <shachaf> @time fizzie
21:22:13 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Fri Jul 7 21:22:13 2017
21:22:16 <fizzie> In fact, I couldn't remember what it was in a confidential way, so I did just that.
21:22:18 <shachaf> Maybe not.
21:22:53 <shachaf> What about HackEgo?
21:22:57 <shachaf> When's that one coming back?
21:23:29 <fizzie> That's a good question. I don't have super recent clone of the repository.
21:23:43 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa
21:23:48 <shachaf> It's just gone?
21:23:55 <shachaf> No copy of the data or anything?
21:23:55 <zzo38> I tried that and do not see anything about TTL. Did I do something wrong?
21:24:07 <shachaf> I knew I should have set up a cron job to fetch the repository.
21:24:14 <shachaf> zzo38: Tried what, the dig command?
21:24:23 <zzo38> Yes
21:24:26 <shachaf> You probably saw a line like google.com. 174 IN A 172.217.6.78
21:24:33 <shachaf> 174 is the TTL
21:24:45 <fizzie> It can be less than 300 if you get it from a server that had it cached.
21:25:07 <zzo38> O, OK, although I get a different number (64 instead of 174 or 300) and the IP address is also different
21:25:34 <fizzie> I guess technically I should've said something like dig @ns1.google.com google.com a
21:25:50 <fizzie> That one I get as a constant 300, since it's the authoritative reply.
21:26:11 <shachaf> zzo38: If you run the command multiple times you'll probably see that number decreasing every second.
21:26:21 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes that one works.
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21:26:46 <shachaf> zzo38: maybe you should go work at the google hth
21:27:42 <fizzie> shachaf: To answer your question, I do have one copy, it's just very old. Anyway, I'm still sort of expecting the server to be back in some form eventually, at least enough for the big G (the other big G) to pull data out of it.
21:28:03 <shachaf> kmc_: higan
21:28:20 <kmc_> hi
21:28:56 <shachaf> maybe we should have a #esoteric IRC meetup when fizzie is in CA
21:29:14 <shachaf> who all is still in california around here
21:30:24 <shachaf> fizzie: Presumably the big G is pulling data out of it using HTTP.
21:32:25 <fizzie> Well, I was sort of speculating about the big G that has access to the control panel. Maybe they have some sort of a thing. I don't know, I'm not a CaC customer.
21:32:58 <shachaf> I meant the non-other big G.
21:33:07 <shachaf> Or the other other big G.
21:33:16 <shachaf> How many Gs are there, and which of them are big?
21:34:00 <fizzie> There's the gravitational constant, but that'd not so big.
21:34:23 <shachaf> Wikipedia also suggests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Gemini
21:34:46 <fizzie> In related news, I had done a Bad Thing about the monitoring: I had the node metrics configured using the role DNS name "esolangs.org", instead of a specific designator of the machine.
21:34:57 <fizzie> Now I won't be notified when/if it comes back up. :/
21:35:00 <shachaf> classic mistake
21:35:37 <shachaf> Which monitoring system was this?
21:35:57 <fizzie> Prometheus on this side, prometheus-node-exporter and mtail on the other side.
21:36:39 <fizzie> Well, and also nginx on the other side to do HTTPS and basic auth.
21:37:58 <fizzie> (That last bit is the problematic one, because I could reconfigure the other bits, but the HTTPS connection will fail because the TLS certificate will have just esolangs.org and www.esolangs.org on it.)
21:41:12 <shachaf> I sure hope shaventions don't disappear.
21:41:34 <shachaf> We could reconstruct a lot of state from IRC logs. I guess this is a disadvantage of `edit
21:41:44 <fizzie> It might be someone else here has a more fresh thing.
21:42:08 <shachaf> I made a clone at one point.
21:42:11 <shachaf> But then I deleted it.
21:42:28 <fizzie> If it comes back, I'll set up a periodic thing.
21:43:00 <fizzie> hg log suggests the one I have in ~/tmp/hackego is from 2013, which was a little while ago.
21:43:18 <shachaf> Correct.
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22:14:05 <oerjan> that's so old it might even be pre-nitia
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22:15:56 <oerjan> that is, it might have history older than HackEgo itself
22:40:24 <imode> how do befunge interpreters traditionally store code? as just a big 2D array of cells?
22:43:35 <shachaf> oerjan: What was the reason for nitia, anyway?
22:43:40 <shachaf> Was the old history lost somehow?
22:43:46 <pikhq> Depends on the interpreter, probably.
22:44:26 <oerjan> shachaf: Gregor had a habit of deleting history occasionally.
22:44:27 <imode> for small programs it's not bad but for large, sparse programs I imagine it'd get complicated.
22:44:41 <imode> memory overhead especially.
22:48:45 * oerjan remembers discussing multicursor quadtree zippers with elliott at one point, and thinks that may have been a fungespace discussion gone way awry
22:49:35 <shachaf> I've also discussed 2D zippers with elliott, I think.
22:49:43 <shachaf> Though I don't remember figuring out a good solution?
22:49:45 <oerjan> anyway, quadtrees are a possibility.
22:50:02 <shachaf> Maybe they should store data Z-ordered.
22:51:24 <oerjan> a hashtable might work too, perhaps with regions.
22:53:54 <shachaf> Do you like this?
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23:03:42 <__kerbal__> So, HackEgo's recent files aren't permanently wiped out, are they? It should be fine when or if the server goes back online
23:04:52 <__kerbal__> Right?
23:05:15 <fizzie> Yes, if.
23:05:54 <fizzie> I mean, if the Cloud At Cost people took the money and ran off to Bahamas, it may take quite a lot of time before anyone gets anything out of there.
23:06:10 <fizzie> Have they even managed to give Megaupload customers their files yet?
23:06:11 -!- augur has joined.
23:07:36 <fizzie> Somehow I don't think they were making embezzlement-worthy money from the service though.
23:08:28 <shachaf> Embezzlement is TG
23:08:39 <shachaf> I like the concept of "bezzle", money created through embezzlement.
23:09:30 <__kerbal__> Until you get arrested
23:09:45 * oerjan floods shachaf with barass
23:09:56 <fizzie> From a blog post: "However, with Cloud at Cost randomly shutting down servers, randomly deleting servers, taking forever to answer tickets and a host of other problems, I highly doubt any of their customers have gotten anywhere near three years of use out of their products."
23:10:00 <fizzie> I think we're a counterexample.
23:10:01 <shachaf> The discovery of embezzlement destroys money.
23:19:56 <quintopia> inode: i would use a dict with a (x,y) tuple as key. it's probably a bit slower, but saves memorye
23:20:24 <imode> quintopia: pretty much what I was thinking.
23:20:59 <imode> with the option to unpack into an array.
23:21:30 <imode> I think it'd be interesting to make something like a roguelike where the code 'exists' in the same place as the game it powers.
23:21:59 <imode> "befunge as a scripting language" is now a life goal.
23:23:20 <__kerbal__> Imode: Code in the same place as the game it powers sort of exists in Wreck It Ralph
23:23:39 <__kerbal__> Maybe that could be an influence
23:23:57 <imode> snapmap has something "like" that, where you use the game world as a sort of canvas for triggers, etc.
23:24:47 <__kerbal__> You could do some neat plot-related stuff with that idea
23:25:15 <imode> my biggest problem with that would be code re-use. if you were going to actually use the world as a befunge-like canvas, you'd have to figure out methods for procedures.
23:25:55 <fizzie> Hack'n'Slash has a little bit of that sort of thing.
23:25:57 <imode> and ways of controlling objects.
23:26:26 <fizzie> (There was another one but I'm having trouble locating it.)
23:26:45 <imode> like, you'd have to have an entire blank area for one object's code, with objects that you can interact with to move the "parent" in the cardinal directions and perform actions.
23:27:18 <imode> buttons, maybe? you could pull off a redstone-like system.
23:27:48 <imode> looking at Hack'n'Slash now.
23:27:54 <__kerbal__> imode: Or if the entire source code for the game was the world itself. You could literally alter the fabric of the game's universe
23:28:02 <fizzie> It's a lot more of a game than the thing you describe.
23:28:09 <imode> __kerbal__: that's kind of what I'm thinking.
23:28:58 <imode> wanna change how much health you have? warp to a certain point in the world, push a block and hit a button a certain number of times.
23:30:18 <__kerbal__> Want to explore the main menu with your character? Go to the relevant section of the code and alter a slice.
23:30:43 <fizzie> I can't decide whether the other game I'm thinking about actually existed, or if it was fictional, or if I just dreamed it.
23:30:54 <imode> the problem is making the programming model easy enough.
23:31:00 <__kerbal__> Hack n slice does similar stuff, from what I just read, though
23:32:22 <__kerbal__> Would it be source code in a fungeoidal language as I have been imagining?
23:32:27 <imode> yup.
23:32:39 <imode> code exists in the same space as the actual game.
23:33:21 <__kerbal__> That would be really cool, but so hard to edit without crashing everything unless it somehow was designed to be sufficiently easy
23:33:26 <__kerbal__> as you suggest
23:33:59 <imode> that's why you need something like entry points. or something.
23:34:14 <__kerbal__> A new language at bare minimum
23:34:27 <imode> yeah.
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23:35:44 <fizzie> There's also Heart.Break(), but that's still not the game I was thinking of.
23:35:51 <fizzie> Maybe it was fictional.
23:36:09 <imode> I don't like programming games that are just "here's javascript, go nuts".
23:36:13 <imode> much like hackmud..
23:36:13 <__kerbal__> maybe something like this: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Funciton
23:36:26 <__kerbal__> but higher level
23:36:43 <shachaf> oerjan: Do you mean barrass?
23:36:43 <imode> so something like a schematic?
23:36:44 <__kerbal__> That way, you don't have to work with single char commands
23:36:48 <__kerbal__> yep
23:36:53 <imode> mm.
23:37:16 <__kerbal__> Otherwise, you get a version of befunge that uses all the Unicode chars or something ridiculous like that
23:37:38 <__kerbal__> well, not ALL the Unicode chars but you get my point
23:37:48 <imode> at that point you might as well do something like flow-based programming.
23:37:52 <imode> or factorio-style stuff.
23:38:46 <__kerbal__> you could have boxes as functions that served double duty as buildings... you could go inside
23:38:47 <shachaf> Factorio is TG
23:38:58 <__kerbal__> or get teleported to the function definition
23:39:28 <shachaf> Speaking of what I said the other day, when I first played Factorio I didn't know about the underground belts for a while.
23:39:38 <shachaf> So I tried to make everything planar.
23:39:41 <imode> hahaha.
23:39:41 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't know, ask muphry here
23:39:44 <imode> wire crossing problem. :P
23:39:58 <imode> __kerbal__: you could do something like excel!
23:40:40 <imode> but that'd be kinda weird.
23:40:53 <shachaf> oerjan: Do you like sqrt(2)?
23:40:57 <__kerbal__> Yeah, that wouldn't be overly fun
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23:42:05 <__kerbal__> You might be able to do something graphical... but that would resemble a flowchart, be potentially complex and slow, etc...
23:42:11 <shachaf> zzo38: What name do you think an object-oriented language should use for the object whose method is being invoked?
23:42:14 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like this?
23:42:37 <__kerbal__> Now, won't this whole game not exactly be fast?
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23:42:54 <imode> depends, I suppose.
23:43:57 <__kerbal__> Also, couldn't you win extremely quickly with just the right hacks?
23:44:07 <imode> maybe you could take a more abstract approach and have some primitive objects that can move around and do some things in their general vicinity.
23:44:31 <imode> like you oculd form a "pipeline" by putting several carrier objects next to eachother and telling them to take the object from their left and put it on their right.
23:44:47 <imode> or two "mailbox" objects that transport things from one point on the "map" to another.
23:45:05 <imode> you could have compound objects that have their own "dimension" with controls exposed by sensory objects.
23:45:24 <__kerbal__> I think Wikipedia said Hack and Slash does that
23:45:51 <imode> I posted a video last night that detailed an approach similar to what I just described... hm.
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23:48:58 <imode> it kind of favored two dimensions, though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkSXERxucPc
23:49:27 <asie> 2n^
23:50:44 <imode> I wonder, though, if you could structure space as kind of a "MUD", where you have locations that objects can move between, and you get a gaggle of objects in a room and wire them together.
23:52:28 <zzo38> shachaf: Programming languages I know will call it "this", although some use others. OAA just uses a plus sign to retrieve the "this" object reference.
23:53:42 <__kerbal__> shachaf: Python convention uses self
23:59:34 <shachaf> oerjan didn't appreciate my pun tdnh
23:59:42 <shachaf> I think Mr2001 would appreciate it but he isn't here.
2017-07-08
00:12:53 <__kerbal__> shachaf: That pun was just wrong
00:14:05 <__kerbal__> and a bit contrived
00:15:07 <shachaf> You may be missing some context.
00:16:26 <__kerbal__> I may be
00:16:39 <__kerbal__> sorry
00:17:13 <__kerbal__> does 2 ~ you?
00:17:43 <__kerbal__> and the square root function equal a screw?
00:18:00 <__kerbal__> Or did I completely misinterpret it?
00:18:09 <shachaf> What?
00:18:20 <__kerbal__> Yeah, I completely misinterpreted it
00:18:23 <__kerbal__> my badf
00:18:24 <__kerbal__> bad
00:18:28 <shachaf> Never mind the sqrt(2) thing.
00:18:36 <__kerbal__> sorry
00:19:35 <__kerbal__> That wasn't my call anyway
00:20:17 <__kerbal__> I'll just be going now
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00:34:39 <Hoolootwo> I remember in some speedruns of SMB2 there's a glitch area, in which mario has to navigate through memory without hitting blocks, then smash the one that brings him to the credits
00:36:58 <Hoolootwo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqjZCELEg5M
00:39:08 <Hoolootwo> not that one, wait
00:40:02 <fizzie> JavaScript people sometimes use "self" when they have to stick "this" into a variable for reasons.
00:54:13 <imode> Hoolootwo: yeah, those glitched runs are fun to watch. Metroid 2, Fusion, Zero Mission and Super Metroid even have some of the same techniques.
00:54:59 <imode> I think if you were ever going to design a game where the code exists in the same space as your simulation, you have to be sort of space-agnostic, meaning you can't favor any particular arrangement of objects.
00:55:27 <alercah> the techniques in the 2D metroid games are mostly only superficially similar
00:59:52 <Hoolootwo> I can't seem to find the specific run that does the out-of-bounds thing
01:01:27 <imode> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx85PyLFwUk
01:01:35 <imode> about 5 minutes in.
01:01:46 <imode> they're walking around in memory regions.
01:04:07 <fizzie> Arguably, you're always doing *that*, it's just not the memory regions you're intended to be walking around in.
01:04:16 <imode> well yeah. :P
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01:06:56 <wob_jonas> Re game where the game world represents game rules: (1) I have a vague hunch that one of the tasks in ICFP 2006 was like that, (2) it can sort of happen in games liek game boy super mario land 2 where you go out of bounds and end up in a glitched place where the game is reading the ROM as a game map,
01:07:12 <wob_jonas> and although you can't change ROM values, you can change variables in the RAM that way with surprising effects,
01:07:24 <imode> the trick to what I'm thinking of is having areas that the user is _intended_ to be there in one form or another.
01:08:07 <wob_jonas> (3) imode has hit the nail with Excel, because Excel 3 macros might be the best example for something like this, since macros are represented in macro worksheets with one rule per cell, and those worksheets are very similar to ordinary worksheets
01:08:52 <wob_jonas> except cells in them don't get their values automatically recomputed all the time, instead their values are only computed when macro execution steps there, and so editing the formulas works the same way in a macro worksheet as in an ordinary one.
01:13:47 <wob_jonas> I guess editing the config file of your text editor with the same text editor is also sort of like that.
01:13:58 <imode> haha.
01:14:24 <imode> I guess you have to consider what the space of your game can be. limiting things to 2 dimensions is a little.. eeh.
01:14:48 <wob_jonas> Like I said yesterday, excel is 3 dimensional.
01:14:58 <imode> 2 was just an example.
01:15:55 <imode> you could do a hunt the wumpus/trade wars kind of a thing where objects occupy abstract spaces like rooms.
01:16:25 <wob_jonas> hunt the wumpus is 2 dimensional
01:16:26 <imode> "fetch a character from the keyboard" really takes on a whole new meaning then. :P
01:17:13 <imode> hunt the wumpus is based on a dodecahedron, not necessarily two dimensional.
01:17:26 <imode> you could reduce it to a planar graph, yeah.
01:17:31 <wob_jonas> hmm... I guess hunt the wumpus has holes you can fall into and die, so you could sort of count that as a third dimension
01:17:55 <imode> but the "space" you play in is inherently a graph.
01:18:08 <imode> not a uniform grid.
01:18:11 <wob_jonas> and bats that carry you to different rooms too
01:28:12 <Hoolootwo> I've played (a version of) hunt the wumpus on a complete graph before
01:31:59 <wob_jonas> Hoolootwo: with how many rooms, pits, and bats?
01:32:05 <Hoolootwo> n
01:32:26 <Hoolootwo> uh n rooms, I don't remember the exact details, let me grab them
01:36:23 <Hoolootwo> https://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12532&lang=en
01:36:32 <Hoolootwo> not complete graphs, I realize that wouldn't make much sense
01:37:51 <wob_jonas> Hoolootwo: thanks
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04:07:33 <shachaf> oerjan: Does the backup wiki link need to stay in the topic?
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04:30:03 <shachaf> imode: wireworld is tg
04:30:13 <shachaf> I didn't look at it in much detail before.
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04:45:44 <imode> tg?
04:45:50 <shachaf> too good
04:46:19 <imode> too good? :P
04:46:58 <shachaf> Yes.
04:47:01 <shachaf> It means "good".
04:47:15 <imode> not sure what you mean by "too good". too good for what.
04:47:32 <shachaf> I mean that I like it.
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04:47:41 <shachaf> Do you like this?
04:47:44 <imode> oh.
05:04:54 <pikhq> Yeah, Wireworld is a great CA.
05:47:58 <quintopia> i agree
05:48:08 <quintopia> ouioui
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09:03:40 <int-e> uhm, google, why'd you put "shopping" where the image search used to be? That's evil, I say, evil.
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09:31:00 <int-e> oh, since 2008 we actually have speed of light communication in GoL ( http://www.gabrielnivasch.org/fun/life/lightspeed-signals ).
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09:34:57 <shachaf> Yes.
09:36:58 <int-e> but still no lightspeed wire based communication
09:37:21 <shachaf> Wire?
09:37:53 <int-e> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/Lightspeed_wire
09:39:51 <Taneb> GoL programming reminds me of how I felt when I first joined this channel
09:40:41 <Taneb> People doing impossible things that I barely understand
09:40:46 <Taneb> It's amazing
09:41:46 <shachaf> When was that?
09:42:17 <Taneb> ...2010 or 2011 I think?
09:49:43 <shachaf> I'll be pretty bummed out if we lose fshg
09:49:48 <shachaf> As they say.
09:54:16 <Taneb> `? fshg
09:54:26 <Taneb> Oh, no HackEgo
09:54:48 <shachaf> fshg is the HackEgo filesystem
09:54:53 <Taneb> Oh, I see!
09:54:55 <Taneb> That makes sense
09:55:08 <Taneb> Why would we lose it?
09:55:22 <Taneb> Other than HackEgo seems to have gotten lost
09:55:23 <shachaf> Because the server that was hosting HackEgo has disappeared.
09:56:38 <shachaf> Taneb: You should invent a good build system.
09:58:09 <Taneb> I've been learning abut nix at work, it seems pretty all right
09:58:29 <shachaf> Does it?
09:58:39 <shachaf> It doesn't actually do the work of the build system proper, I think.
09:58:55 <shachaf> It just uses Cabal or Cargo or whatever. Right?
09:59:05 <shachaf> imo you should learn about bazel twh
09:59:52 <Taneb> Yeah, that might be the case
10:00:02 <Taneb> Isn't bazel a city in Germany or Switzerland
10:00:14 <shachaf> Also the Nix language is very complicated.
10:00:27 <shachaf> And it doesn't seem to be sufficiently declarative in the usual case.
10:00:42 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bazel seems to be in Belgium.
10:01:09 <shachaf> Population (2003): 4,967
10:01:21 <shachaf> There are many more than 5000 users of Bazel_(software)
10:07:29 <Taneb> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basel
10:08:20 <shachaf> Oh, sure, Basel.
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12:08:04 <fizzie> The reddit comments imply that at least for some people, they can create new servers on CaC, it's just the old ones that are not working.
12:09:43 <fizzie> Gregor: You might have some luck at power-cycling off / on from the console thingie now. (Or not. Probably not. But there's some success stories.)
12:11:08 <fizzie> @time Gregor
12:11:09 <lambdabot> Local time for Gregor is Sat Jul 8 07:11:09
12:11:25 <fizzie> Maybe not the most bestest time to expect a response.
12:21:25 <int-e> fizzie: do you have a backup of the fshg repo as well?
12:22:03 <int-e> (shachaf was worrying about that)
12:24:06 <fizzie> I know, and no.
12:24:06 <fizzie> Well, I do have one from 2013.
12:24:17 <fizzie> (shachaf knows this)
12:24:26 <int-e> ah. I didn't.
12:24:42 <fizzie> I'll set up something periodic if it comes back up, but the only thing that I had was for the wiki.
12:24:52 <fizzie> I do have a lot of IRC logs I can try replaying. ;)
12:25:54 <int-e> crazy!
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13:00:48 <fizzie> Something I've never understood: since the Games Done Quick schedule page has that JavaScript to convert all the dates and times to your local time zone, why can't it add a marker to show the current time, or dehighlight (lowlight?) the ones that are in the past, or something.
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13:19:50 <wob_jonas> Re HackEgo's state, replaying from the channel is not easy though, because sometimes I edit with multiple lines in private message then show the result here.
13:22:39 <fizzie> Sure, and there's also `fetch.
13:22:56 <fizzie> Might be interesting to try anyway, to see where it diverges and how badly it goes wrong.
13:22:56 <wob_jonas> and other nondeterminism
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14:49:47 <int-e> . o O ( For this magic trick you'll need: A piece of string, a deck of cards, an identical twin, and a shoe box. )
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15:58:40 <fizzie> Hey, it's back. I didn't even realize.
15:58:57 <fizzie> `ping
15:59:06 <HackEgo> pong
15:59:12 <fizzie> Slow and steady wins the race.
15:59:35 <fizzie> Probably means I can re-point DNS things at the real deal.
15:59:39 <wob_jonas> oh!
15:59:41 <wob_jonas> is it the real thing?
15:59:41 <wob_jonas> `w
15:59:43 <HackEgo> moth//Moths are the main ingredient of mothballs.
15:59:49 <wob_jonas> `scheme
15:59:49 <HackEgo> Evil Comes to Fruition
15:59:50 <wob_jonas> `recipe
15:59:51 <HackEgo> ​ not overcook. Seal and discard the meat \ with the chili powder and dust the lengthwise. \ \ Cover with fennel steak around the heat and beat in the cornstarch or water and soy sauce. \ Remove the broiler in a serving bowl. Stir together the olive oil, and \ salt together until mixture. Add the bread crumbs and heat well in a \ small bow
16:00:00 <wob_jonas> quick, someone save it before it disappears again
16:00:35 <fizzie> `` hg log -l 1
16:00:36 <HackEgo> changeset: 11076:58a63c67dd0c \ tag: tip \ user: HackBot \ date: Wed Jul 05 23:03:15 2017 +0000 \ summary: <oerjan> slwd `1//s,almost ,,
16:00:45 <fizzie> I'll do a clone of the repository.
16:00:54 <wob_jonas> fizzie: thanks
16:06:42 <fizzie> Also updated esolangs.org to point at the real thing, and thanks to the low TTL it should this time take only five minutes to propagate.
16:07:16 <wob_jonas> `perl -eprint 1+4+3+3+3+4+4+1
16:07:17 <HackEgo> 23
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16:20:59 <fizzie> Cloned. Also added updating it to be part of the weekly esowiki backup.
16:21:17 -!- fizzie has set topic: mermaid umpires | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
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17:35:47 <rdococ> `? hungary
17:35:48 <HackEgo> hungary? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:36:05 <rdococ> `le//rn hungary//Hungary is the country where everyone is vary hungry.
17:36:07 <HackEgo> Learned 'hungary': Hungary is the country where everyone is vary hungry.
17:41:29 <fizzie> Subject: [RESOLVED] host_down (esolangs.org)
17:43:14 <zzo38> I read the article about Amycus and in the part mentioninghow to make successor/predecessor of lists, I think the commas is supposed to be colons?
17:44:14 <wob_jonas> zzo38: wait, let me look up what you're talking about
17:46:12 <wob_jonas> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Amycus#Implementing
17:46:21 <wob_jonas> yes, you're probably right
17:48:37 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure the rules are right
17:52:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52396&oldid=46671 * B jonas * (+7) /* Implementing */
17:52:55 <wob_jonas> I hope they are
17:55:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52397&oldid=52396 * B jonas * (+0) /* Implementing */
17:56:07 <int-e> HackEgo: are you real or an identical twin?
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18:14:11 <shachaf> fizzie: I was worried about the existence of a backup, not specifically a copy you have.
18:17:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Integ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52398&oldid=52389 * Kerbal * (-123)
18:18:03 <shachaf> `olist 1080
18:18:03 <HackEgo> olist 1080: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
18:18:58 <shachaf> `hurl
18:18:58 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/
18:20:13 <shachaf> wob_jonas: This is one reason editing in /msg is discouraged.
18:20:49 -!- imode has joined.
18:22:48 <fizzie> I usually do sed in /msg, and then repeat the final thing with -i here. (I don't hold with these newfangled sleds and whatnot.)
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18:25:41 <shachaf> fizzie: That would be a good feature for sled.
18:25:54 <shachaf> I mean, a preview mode.
18:27:18 <shachaf> `revert
18:27:19 <HackEgo> Done.
18:27:23 <shachaf> everything is back to normal
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18:46:46 * oerjan hugs HackEgo
18:46:55 <oerjan> `botsnack
18:46:56 <HackEgo> ​>:-D
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18:49:41 <shachaf> @botsnake
18:49:41 <lambdabot> :)
18:51:15 <oerjan> @botspank
18:51:15 <lambdabot> :)
18:51:51 <oerjan> (let's see if we can get int-e to finally add channel-based levenshtein distances as he's threatened to)
18:51:53 -!- lambdabot has left.
18:51:59 <oerjan> aww
18:52:20 <int-e> I believe I have found a simpler solution to the problem.
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19:11:28 <FireFly> noo
19:11:33 <FireFly> I bet you disabled it
19:13:45 <int-e> I didn't do a thing besides demonstrating the fact that having lambdabot on this channel is entirely optional.
19:14:48 <FireFly> ah
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19:29:41 <wob_jonas> ais523: HackEgo and the esowiki are back
19:29:57 <ais523> OK
19:30:07 <ais523> I was aware that there were problems but trusted that they'd be sorted out
19:30:14 <ais523> is it still on Cloud At Cost or has it migrated providers?
19:30:59 <wob_jonas> still on CaC
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19:44:49 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan didn't appreciate my pun tdnh <-- i'd have to find it first twh
19:46:31 <int-e> @google this C++
19:46:33 <lambdabot> http://www.geeksforgeeks.org/this-pointer-in-c/
19:46:33 <lambdabot> Title: 'this' pointer in C++ - GeeksforGeeks
19:47:00 <oerjan> `? this
19:47:01 <HackEgo> this is a word
19:47:25 <int-e> . o O ( this is me in C++ )
19:48:20 <shachaf> int-e: C++ is TG
19:48:33 <int-e> @quote int-e C++
19:48:33 <lambdabot> Plugin `quote' failed with: user error (parseRegex for Text.Regex.TDFA.String failed:"C++" (line 1, column 3):
19:48:33 <lambdabot> unexpected '+'
19:48:33 <lambdabot> expecting empty () or anchor ^ or $, an atom, "|" or end of input)
19:48:37 <int-e> @quote int-e C\+\+
19:48:37 <lambdabot> int-e says: C++ does make a reasonably usable high-level assembler
19:49:15 <shachaf> C++ is nothing like assembler. It produces ridiculously inefficient code without an optimizer.
19:49:24 <int-e> (I was generating deeply nested loops with templates at the time.)
19:49:28 <shachaf> So much recursive template expansion.
19:50:05 <int-e> (So yes, I did effectively use it as a HLA, or perhaps HLC.)
19:50:06 * oerjan finally finds shachaf's pun -----###
19:51:10 <shachaf> I wonder why C++ doesn't allow this to be null?
19:51:12 <int-e> shachaf: just stay away from objects and virtual methods and it'll be fine... except that compile time may be slow, and if you're unlucky your code won't fit into the cache.
19:52:32 <int-e> it's so that compilers can optimize (this == NULL) checks away without violating the standard.
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19:52:44 <shachaf> Sure, it's a good language for producing efficient code.
19:53:04 <int-e> (which may be the result of inlining a function that has such a check, but is invoked with `this` as its argument)
19:53:09 <shachaf> C++17 is TG
19:53:31 <int-e> I think you're overusing "tg", hth.
19:54:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Triple Threat]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52399&oldid=52393 * Qwertyu63 * (+23)
19:54:49 <ybden> 1? TG
19:54:54 <ybden> `? TG
19:54:54 <HackEgo> TG is short for Turing-Gödel, the highest possible level of difficulty for a multiplayer game. At this level, it's undecidable whether you can manage to halt before losing or not.
19:55:17 <shachaf> hellobden
19:55:26 <ybden> shichaf
19:56:14 <shachaf> Do you like LevelDB?
19:56:42 <ybden> I can't say I'd ever heard of it before
19:56:44 <int-e> shachaf: are you trying to become zzo38?
19:57:18 <shachaf> It's what I do.
19:57:19 <ybden> Hm, it looks neat maybe
19:57:45 <shachaf> I was using "you" in the zzo38 sense, certainly.
20:01:29 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: Does the backup wiki link need to stay in the topic? <-- i left it in because the DNS needs to propagate...
20:01:47 <oerjan> *needed
20:02:28 <oerjan> `? zzo38
20:02:29 <HackEgo> zzo38 is not actually the next version of fungot, much as it may seem.
20:02:34 <oerjan> `? shachaf
20:02:35 <HackEgo> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions.
20:02:46 <fizzie> I'm still getting wiki requests on the backup machine, even though I had a TTL of 5 minutes in the temporary entry.
20:03:29 <fizzie> Well, okay, at the moment it seems to be only "AhrefsBot/5.2".
20:04:04 <fizzie> I should've configured to log the host name used to access it, maybe something already started crawling the address that formerly was in the topic.
20:05:17 <oerjan> where would they get that address though...
20:05:31 <fizzie> The channel logs, maybe.
20:06:25 <oerjan> "Ahrefsbot" sounds like something that follows <A href=" tags...
20:06:46 <oerjan> which the channel logs are quite free of.
20:07:08 <fizzie> Ahrefs is the company name, though it's clearly named after that.
20:07:15 <fizzie> "Ahrefs helps you to learn why your competitors are ranking so high and what you need to do to outrank them."
20:07:31 <fizzie> Some sort of a SEO company.
20:08:28 <int-e> encountered them before.. their crawler is fairly aggressive
20:08:40 -!- imode has joined.
20:11:47 <fizzie> Took a while to realize that Zucchini_cat.png probably refers to cat-the-program rather than cat-the-animal.
20:12:24 <int-e> . o O ( index.php:if (strpos($_SERVER['HTTP_USER_AGENT'], 'AhrefsBot') !== false) { exit(0); } <-- leftover from a slow php frontend and a failure to set up a robots.txt protecting it. )
20:13:04 <fizzie> Majestic's MJ12Bot was being pretty aggressive as well.
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20:15:45 <wob_jonas> int-e: isn't it better to do that in a wobserver config file?
20:15:51 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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20:17:35 <int-e> wob_jonas: maybe if you're the webserver admin :P
20:19:20 <int-e> wob_jonas: Also, the robots.txt keeps this particular crawler away, but they only look at it for 24 hours. It was meant as a temporary workaround... but it never got removed.
20:19:40 -!- erkin has joined.
20:19:58 <int-e> uhm, grammar. s/for/once every/
20:20:51 <fizzie> robots.txt a day keeps the crawler away.
20:21:15 <imode> it also keeps the internet archive away.
20:21:34 <fizzie> You can put user-agent-qualified rules in there.
20:23:16 <fizzie> I added a disallow for "User-agent: SemrushBot" because their crawler was being *super* confused by MediaWiki's "URLs containing %3A get a 301 to the same URL with raw : instead" rule, trying to fetch the same thing over and over again, quite a few times per second.
20:24:05 <fizzie> I'm guessing they fetch, say, /foo%3Abar, get a 301 to /foo:bar, don't think that's a loop, then some piece of their infrastructure re-encodes that to /foo%3Abar for safety.
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20:31:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TheSquashyApple * New user account
20:40:07 <wob_jonas> fizzie: and it didn't give up after like 16 tries?
20:41:14 <fizzie> I don't think it gave up each page eventually, but there's no shortage of pages with :s if you crawl a MediaWiki page.
20:41:32 <fizzie> Er, I mean, I don't think it looped indefinitely, but did give up eventually.
20:42:31 <int-e> I love these sites. http://esolangs.org.ourssite.com/ "Daily revenue: $829".
20:43:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52400&oldid=52352 * TheSquashyApple * (+248)
20:44:30 <ais523> fizzie: would you sell the site for $302,688, assuming there was a buyer?
20:44:40 <wob_jonas> int-e: great, you're successfully keeping most of the site's revenue secret from tax auditors that use that site
20:44:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:TheSquashyApple]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52401 * TheSquashyApple * (+56) Created page with "hi. i am some guy who likes apples and programming. bye."
20:44:48 <ais523> also, do we really get 27 million unique visitors a year?
20:44:54 <Sgeo_> .
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20:45:30 <Sgeo> HexChat was acting stupid.
20:45:44 <Sgeo> http://www.emojicode.org/ who would put this much effort in for an esolang??
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20:46:26 <TheSquashyApple> hi
20:46:34 <ais523> hi TheSquashyApple
20:47:40 <TheSquashyApple> this is awkward :P
20:47:52 <ais523> it's OK, lots of people just lurk on IRC
20:48:01 <TheSquashyApple> k
20:48:03 <ais523> saying nothing until there's a conversation they're interested in
20:48:50 <TheSquashyApple> is there any way to actually get a l33t interpreter now?
20:48:57 <int-e> . o O ( Applello! is a nice portmanteau, or should it have one 'l' less? )
20:49:15 <Sgeo> Emojicode has its own bytecode compiler and.. JIT I think
20:49:33 <Sgeo> And I don't think it just translates emoji into keywords for another language or anything trivial like that
20:50:01 <fizzie> ais523: I don't feel like I own it, so possibly not. And I'm really sceptical about those visitor numbers.
20:50:06 <ais523> TheSquashyApple: this one seems to have been archived in the Wayback Machine: http://web.archive.org/web/20060620061727/http://chimpen.com:80/l33t/
20:50:07 <int-e> oerjan: you're the portmantexpert, would you prefer applello or applelo?
20:50:13 <ais523> fizzie: so am I!
20:51:06 <TheSquashyApple> ais523: when i click run, it doesn't do anything... :|
20:51:21 <ais523> it's a BF derivative so it should be easy enough to implement yourself
20:51:32 <TheSquashyApple> k
20:52:47 <ais523> hmm, I wonder why its while loop is called if
20:54:28 <fizzie> ais523: We get less than that many *requests* per day, and a big chunk of those are crawlers of various kinds.
20:54:29 <oerjan> int-e: ThelloSquashyApple hth
20:54:53 <fizzie> Also their "Monthly Unique Visitors" is exactly 30 times "Daily Unique Visitors", which implies nobody ever comes back.
20:55:01 <ais523> so hmm, does this mean that an above-average number of our viewers have Alexa opt-in spyware installed?
20:55:16 <ais523> or right, that is a pretty suspicious relationship
20:55:20 <ais523> and/or complete failure of maths
20:56:59 <oerjan> Heraclitus' SEO company: you cannot get the same visitor twice
20:57:56 <int-e> I imagine they have a statistical model based on a sample of a dozen websites ... with factors like size of website, age, links coming in and out
20:58:16 <fizzie> alexa.com's similar page says the top 5 search keywords that send traffic to us are, in order, "wierd", "aaaaaaaaaaaaaa", "aaaaaaaaaaaaa", "weird" and "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa".
20:58:29 <int-e> hah
20:58:52 <fizzie> The upstream sites (which sites visited before) list is at least pretty believable: google, ycombinator.com and stackexchange.com.
20:59:01 <int-e> what's so special about 14 a's in a row
20:59:16 <oerjan> well one of them is an esolang
20:59:28 <int-e> Thanks, google: "Searches related to aaaaaaaaaaaaaa"
20:59:59 <int-e> one of them is "american association against acronym abuse", I wonder what they would say about this channel
21:01:03 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAA, obviously.
21:01:21 <fizzie> Google's search console has a quite different list, and says the top query by far is "brainfuck", followed by "this=that programming language", "ook programming language", "brainfuck example" and "brain fuck".
21:01:44 <fizzie> This is all very brainfuck-heavy.
21:03:21 <TheSquashyApple> how do people make these languages!?
21:04:07 <wob_jonas> what's a this=that ?
21:04:33