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03:07:10 <thematrixeatsyou> printf("HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!");
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03:08:27 <xor_> while(1) eat(&candy);
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03:20:55 <xor_> if( candy_count > 15 ) vomit();
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03:49:34 <pikhq> printf("HELLO");for(char i=0;i!=255;i++) {putch('!');}putch('\n');
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03:51:49 <xor_> for(int i=0;i<100000;i++) { *0; }
03:54:03 <xor_> for(int i=0;i<100000;i++) { *(void*)0; }
04:01:28 <pikhq> cons32 bar : foo;while bar {out bar}
04:04:56 <xor_> (setq x (cons 1 2))(cons (car x) (cdr x))
04:10:04 <xor_> ++++++++[>++++++++++++<-]>+.+.+.
04:11:50 <thematrixeatsyou> declare_brainfuck_funct("++++++++[>++++++++++++<-]>+.+.+.",printf,"cba");
04:13:57 <xor_> me->flags |= F_TIRED;
04:13:59 <pikhq> @ bar 0;@ foo 1;cons96 foo : bar;add foo 1;out foo;add foo 1;out foo;add foo 1;out foo
04:14:09 <xor_> wtf language is that
04:14:30 <pikhq> It's the equivalent of your Brainfuck code.
04:15:20 <xor_> me->flags |= F_CONFUSED;
04:19:37 <pikhq> BFM is a macro language for Brainfuck.
04:21:06 <pikhq> I'm fond of it (I designed it). . .
04:21:14 <pikhq> Just not understanding how it works?
04:24:05 <xor_> What is the cons stuff?
04:29:24 <pikhq> Shortest Brainfuck version of constants (for wrapping implementations).
04:29:58 <pikhq> From the Esolangs wiki.
04:31:00 <pikhq> Only recently heard of it.
04:31:06 <pikhq> Recommend any implementations?
04:35:59 <pikhq> Free software, please.
04:37:20 <pikhq> Ah, so I can use, study, share, and change?
04:45:33 <Razor-X> I tried making a sort (Sequential?) in Forth.
04:46:09 * xor_ hasn't coded forth for a long time
04:46:16 <Razor-X> Don't have that much time in a day.
04:46:46 <Razor-X> Pfft. Just getting it to iterate over an array took me a good while to understand.
04:47:03 <xor_> yep, I don't remember how to do that
04:47:13 <Razor-X> Well, it's really logical....
04:47:40 <Razor-X> Looks something like: ( addr length -- addr ) CELLS SWAP DUP ROT + SWAP
04:47:48 <pikhq> thematrixeatsyou: That's not freedom.
04:48:11 <Razor-X> Then you can enter a DO loop and it will iterate over the array, as long as you write to the memory location of the index.
04:48:50 <Razor-X> Err.., just ( addr length ) describes the stack in the beginning.
04:58:26 <pikhq> Only if I were allowed to change it.
04:58:40 <GregorR> There's more to source than the function.
04:58:52 <pikhq> Without this, it cannot truly be called Free.
04:59:42 <GregorR> thematrixeatsyou: You are oblivious
04:59:46 <Razor-X> thematrixeatsyou: What's GNU?
05:00:09 <GregorR> OK, just ridiculously massive amounts of software.
05:00:17 <Razor-X> GNU isn't just a drop in a bucket, you know?
05:00:20 <pikhq> GNU/Linux is free.
05:00:29 <thematrixeatsyou> GNU = you can change it but you still have to say who it's by and that
05:00:49 <GregorR> Attribution is not a restriction X_X
05:00:49 <pikhq> That's not an issue of freedom.
05:01:17 <pikhq> A comment doesn't restrict what you can do with the code.
05:01:56 <thematrixeatsyou> well, you can use it and study it, and should be able to share it. if you can disassemble it and change it im pretty sure mirek won't mind.
05:03:51 <pikhq> An explicit guarantee that I'm allowed to change it.
05:05:52 <pikhq> I'll ask him for the source and a BSD or GPL license.
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05:28:17 <pikhq> Communism != liberty.
05:28:56 <pikhq> The GPL does not provide for a commune, it provides for a system where by the free market may work in truth.
05:36:55 <xor_> gpl is annoying
05:37:15 <pikhq> It provides freedom.
05:37:22 <pikhq> Surely freedom is anything but annoying?
05:37:35 <xor_> More free than microsoft, sure
05:37:39 <xor_> But still not free
05:37:45 <pikhq> How is it not free?
05:37:54 <pikhq> The only freedom you lack is to take away freedom.
05:38:09 <xor_> I can't license my derivitave work how I like
05:38:17 <pikhq> You can't take away freedom.
05:38:35 <xor_> to be free I have to be able to do whatever the hell I want with it
05:38:41 <xor_> GPL isn't like that
05:38:59 <pikhq> The GPL allows you to do whatever you want so long as it doesn't prevent anyone *else* from doing the same.
05:39:34 <pikhq> Give me one right you don't have with the GNU General Public License.
05:39:42 <xor_> I can't license it with any license but the GPL
05:40:09 <pikhq> There is no "right to take away freedom from others".
05:40:47 <xor_> The only truley free license is public domain
05:40:51 <pikhq> It's the power to enslave.
05:41:03 <xor_> GPL is the power to enslave
05:41:13 <xor_> enslave everyone with the GPL
05:41:18 <pikhq> No, GPL removes the power to enslave.
05:41:26 <xor_> BSD, MIT licenses, they are free enough
05:41:27 <RodgerTheGreat> basically, what xor_ is saying is that the GPL takes away the freedom of the programmer to choose open-source or not once they build upon the work of others.
05:41:47 <pikhq> Basically, it takes away the freedom of the programmer to hurt others.
05:42:11 <RodgerTheGreat> Open-source should *always* be a choice made by a creator, not a requirement.
05:42:40 <pikhq> Freedom shouldn't be a choice; it should be a natural result.
05:42:58 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't have a problem with the existence of open-source software, but I sure as hell don't like being bullied into giving my creations away when I don't want to.
05:43:15 <pikhq> I don't like being bullied into not sharing with others.
05:43:26 <pikhq> A non-copyleft free software license allows this.
05:43:30 <xor_> the GPL bullies you into using the GPL
05:44:09 <pikhq> The GPL prevents a few programmers from hurting others. A BSD license allows a few programmers to hurt the rest of society.
05:44:16 <pikhq> Tell me, which is better for society?
05:44:45 <xor_> GPL hurts the programmers
05:44:58 <xor_> I know of projects that weren't released because of the gpl
05:45:04 <RodgerTheGreat> if I'm trying to make a living, screw "society" and the "free everything" culture that pervades the internet.
05:45:18 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: It's not about cost, it's about freedom.
05:45:45 <RodgerTheGreat> for every one person that wants open-source to look at the code and learn, ten people want it so that they don't have to hand over cash.
05:45:47 <xor_> the freedom to do _whatever_ you want with my code
05:46:02 <pikhq> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html
05:46:19 <xor_> I'm all for free software
05:46:46 <pikhq> xor_: With a non-copyleft license, freedom is only granted to those who receive it directly from you.
05:47:14 <pikhq> If someone receives it through a third party, they are as surely enslaved as they would be by something that's fully proprietary.
05:47:22 <xor_> with a GPL it never was free
05:47:34 <pikhq> No, GPL ensures that everyone is free.
05:48:09 <pikhq> Because the GPL is constructed in such a way that one cannot take freedom away.
05:48:26 <Razor-X> Doesen't that sound a lot like anti-freedom?
05:48:43 <Razor-X> When you force someone to subscribe to freedom, you're removing the freedom of using freedom.
05:48:57 <pikhq> We force people to not have slaves.
05:49:03 <pikhq> Does this make us not free?
05:49:16 <xor_> If I get some free code from you, I should have the freedom to use a BSD license
05:49:34 <pikhq> Does it make those who would be slaves not free?
05:49:39 <pikhq> Or does it liberate the slaves?
05:49:51 <xor_> The are free to rebel against their enslavers
05:50:09 <RodgerTheGreat> that's a heavily loaded metaphor, and one rife with logical fallacy
05:50:44 <pikhq> And the slave owners are free to have them hung.
05:50:55 <Razor-X> I'm not arguing for the reinstatement of human slavery, but it's a situation in which the removal of a freedom prevents attrocity.
05:51:11 <Razor-X> These aren't humans. This is source code.
05:51:28 <pikhq> Which affects large sections of humanity.
05:51:40 <xor_> the paralell could be made that closed source code is an atrocity
05:51:41 <pikhq> Far more people than slavery, I believe.
05:51:49 <pikhq> Which is what I believe.
05:52:14 <pikhq> It prevents cooperation, holds back knowledge, and tells people that sharing is wrong and immoral.
05:52:14 <RodgerTheGreat> you are entitled to your beliefs, but you are not entitled to impose your beliefs upon others.
05:52:15 <Razor-X> Unless you can radically change the corporate world, closed source cannot die from an economic perspective.
05:52:50 <Razor-X> I should not only have the freedom to distribute my source code, but I should have the freedom to release it under any license. The GPL is also picky about a whole bunch of other matters.
05:53:02 <RodgerTheGreat> and precisely the culture that feeds upon open-source is why it cannot fill the same niche as closed-source.
05:53:05 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: Nonfree surely imposes beliefs on others just as much as copyleft free?
05:53:12 <xor_> RodgerTheGreat: you are
05:53:49 <xor_> I'm not familiar with the creative commons licenses
05:53:53 <pikhq> Specifically, nonfree enforces the idea on others that software is property, sharing is wrong, and you shouldn't learn.
05:53:57 <Razor-X> For example, the GPL allows you to charge money for the distribution of source code at a price related to the price of distribution. Talk about loophole.
05:54:19 <Razor-X> I prefer a sort of software patent system, personally.
05:54:23 <pikhq> Actually, the GPL doesn't specify a limit on selling the software.
05:54:42 <xor_> You just have to give the source with it
05:54:55 <pikhq> The limit is merely provided by what people are willing to pay.
05:55:12 <Razor-X> Legal vendor lockin, with distributed source code. The knowledge is free, but for a certain number of years, the implementation is locked in.
05:55:12 <thematrixeatsyou> My personal favourite: "This is made by <insert-name-here>; if you redistribute or use parts of this program, you must include this sentence somewhere readable."
05:55:32 <xor_> thematrixeatsyou: exactly
05:55:36 <Razor-X> At that point if you still want more, that implies that you want to do away with the notion of software profit.
05:55:46 <xor_> an MIT license
05:55:55 <xor_> free enought for me
05:56:12 <pikhq> I'd prefer a system whereby the length of copyright is brought down, and, upon being released in the public domain, the source code is also released.
05:56:26 <Razor-X> Copyright is horrendous. I agree.
05:56:34 <pikhq> This would be a signifigant improvement on how things are now. . .
05:56:36 <Razor-X> GPL is good, but I feel it can be better.
05:56:43 <xor_> no one should be forced to reveal code
05:56:48 <pikhq> Of course, I'd still prefer software that's free *now*, but. . .
05:56:57 <Razor-X> xor_: Why not? Distribute knowledge.
05:57:14 <Razor-X> Of course, only the vendor can receive profit from the knowledge, but the knowledge is free.
05:57:16 <xor_> keeping secrets is a freedom you deserve to have
05:57:22 <pikhq> xor_: The idea of the public domain is simple: the copyright owner has had enough time to make a profit, and now it's time that the public get back what they deserve.
05:57:35 <xor_> I'm not saying they should, just that they should be able to
05:57:50 <xor_> pikhq: the public doesn't deserve jack shit
05:58:02 <Razor-X> Are you vehement anti-Socialist?
05:58:07 <pikhq> xor_: Tell that to the US Constitution.
05:58:22 <pikhq> Or the Declaration of Independence.
05:58:33 <Razor-X> Or the Declaration of the Rights of Man.
05:58:37 <xor_> I'm talking about a world where freedoms aren't limited by the constitution
05:58:50 <Razor-X> xor_: When we get that world, we'll see.
05:59:02 <pikhq> The government is limited by the US Constitution, not the public.
05:59:12 <Razor-X> xor_: Given the will of the people, I wholeheartedly believe that Communism is the best way.
05:59:26 <Razor-X> xor_: But the push needs to be uniform, something that won't happen any time soon, as I can see it.
05:59:26 <pikhq> (the public's limitations are enforced in blatent violation of the US Constitution)
06:00:03 <RodgerTheGreat> the problem with communism isn't the system itself, it's the people who create and use it.
06:00:07 <xor_> "Given the will of the people" -- this means not forcing out secrets
06:00:28 <Razor-X> xor_: But Communism encourages no secrets.
06:00:36 <pikhq> xor_: Funny. . . This is about forcing out secrets to benefit the public.
06:01:19 <Razor-X> The whole point of the non-frothy-revolution-kill-kill portion of Marx-Engel's manifesto was to say that the aristocracy needs to sacrifice for the good of the people.
06:01:26 <RodgerTheGreat> forcing people to release sourcecode against their will would be equivalent to forcing people to release medical records so that they might be studied by doctors for the "common good"
06:01:29 <xor_> MS has the right to keep its code secret
06:01:47 <Razor-X> I don't think it can indefinitely.
06:01:55 <Razor-X> Or else you'll have monopolies a la Industrial Revolution.
06:02:28 <xor_> If the public wants MS's code, they can convince MS to give it to them
06:02:44 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: No, it's more akin to forcing someone to release the workings of an invention. . . Which we happen to do daily; we call it "the patent system".
06:02:47 <Razor-X> I firmly believe knowledge is not property.
06:02:57 <Razor-X> Knowledge is a birthright.
06:03:16 <xor_> Once knowledge is released, it's out there
06:03:16 <RodgerTheGreat> knowledge isn't property, but the application of knowledge can most certainly be.
06:03:25 <pikhq> xor_: The problem is that MS excercises this 'right', and in doing so, prevents *everyone else* from having knowledge.
06:03:32 <Razor-X> Now, you have the capability to use knowledge as property, that can and should be encouraged, but only temporarily.
06:03:47 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: Which is why I advocate a legal vendor lockin, while distributing the source code.
06:03:54 <pikhq> Preventing others from having knowledge *surely* holds back society as a whole.
06:04:05 <xor_> anyway, bed time
06:04:13 <Razor-X> We have Window's source, sure, but we can't make money selling modifications.
06:04:25 <Razor-X> Go ahead, hack at it all you want for free.
06:04:26 <RodgerTheGreat> Razor-X: such a system would be an acceptable alternative to forced release of code, assuming it was enforceable
06:04:41 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: I hope we can do something like that.
06:05:21 <pikhq> My position is quite simple:
06:05:31 <RodgerTheGreat> considering rampant abuse of source available for commercial products by pirates and the like, I don't see such a system working in the near future...
06:05:37 <pikhq> The rights of all of society overrule the rights of a select handful of people.
06:05:52 <xor_> neither is more important
06:06:28 <Razor-X> It's happening though RodgerTheGreat. Look at the stupidity at patenting emoticons.
06:06:34 <RodgerTheGreat> we need look no further than the OSX86 project and apple's open-source efforts to see examples of the abuse I mentioned.
06:06:53 <Razor-X> Or that stupid iPod interface fiasco.
06:07:07 <Razor-X> I patented the MENU SYSTEM!!11!!
06:08:08 <RodgerTheGreat> well, it was a bit narrower than that, but primarily they were trying to avoid blatant ripoffs of their design. I admit, most major software companies are guilty of frivolous patents.
06:09:15 <RodgerTheGreat> I see it the same way as some forms of DRM- you can't blame companies for trying to protect their interests from a general public that feels no guilt for what amounts to stealing, at least when this DRM remains within reasonable limits.
06:09:27 <pikhq> I do believe several centuries of history are at odds with you.
06:10:02 <Razor-X> No, I agree. The public and the private are at fault with DRM.
06:10:17 <Razor-X> The private for shamelessly abusing concealement, the public for shamelessly lauding piracy.
06:10:48 <RodgerTheGreat> This is why I dislike outright demonization of DRM- there are many shades of gray in there.
06:10:53 <pikhq> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html Read and tell me again about the "right to take away freedom".
06:12:04 <RodgerTheGreat> I personally find FairPlay to offer me a fair balance between rights and restrictions, and I choose to support it with my money. If you don't like it, don't buy it, but don't simply cry foul "because it's DRM! OMFG!"
06:12:52 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: I find that FairPlay is a misnomer, which restricts what I can and can't do with a work. . . It's merely a less harmful master.
06:14:07 <pikhq> Razor-X: The public is at fault for demanding the right to share, now that it can fully excercise this right?
06:14:59 <RodgerTheGreat> what right to share? Do you honestly think that the contents of a CD is entirely paid for by the cover price?
06:15:57 <pikhq> Once you've got one CD, the next copy is nearly free.
06:16:27 <RodgerTheGreat> simply because they can easily manipulate and convert data from modern formats seems to have convinced people that they have significantly more ownership over data they purchase licenses to than they could by any reasonable definition.
06:16:51 * pikhq would like to introduce you to copyright law, pre-printing-press. . .
06:17:00 <pikhq> "" -- The entirety of copyright law.
06:17:20 <RodgerTheGreat> preindustrial reasoning holds little bearing in the information age.
06:17:24 <pikhq> And we are now in post-meaningful times.
06:17:47 <pikhq> And copyright law is from the age of the printing press, not the information age.
06:17:52 <pikhq> It is time for concepts to change.
06:18:23 <pikhq> Copyright law made sense, once.
06:18:31 <RodgerTheGreat> are you implying that we should disregard all laws created in the last 50 years, on the grounds that the old way of doing things used to make sense?
06:18:33 <pikhq> It was a short restriction on what a publisher could do with a work.
06:18:53 <pikhq> Now, it is used as a long restriction on what the public can do with a work.
06:19:18 <pikhq> RodgerTheGreat: No, on the grounds that the old way of doing things is a slightly less fancy version of the new way of doing things.
06:19:39 <pikhq> (pre-printing-press=old way)
06:20:02 <pikhq> Before the printing press, everyone who could make use of a work could make a copy of a work.
06:20:24 <RodgerTheGreat> because before the printing press, it was insanely laborious.
06:20:27 <pikhq> It'd take no longer than anyone else, and would be no better than anyone else's (discounting differences in handwriting style).
06:20:37 <RodgerTheGreat> and before the word-processor, it was again more laborious
06:20:43 <pikhq> It was laborious, but everyone who could make use of a work could copy it.
06:20:57 <pikhq> Now, after the printing press, anyone can make a copy of a work.
06:21:24 <pikhq> It'll take no longer than anyone else, and be no better than anyone else's.
06:21:40 <pikhq> The difference is that copying is much less laborious than pre-printing-press days.
06:22:10 <pikhq> The printing press age was unique in that only a select few could make "professional" copies of a work.
06:22:23 <pikhq> This age is drawing to an end as we speak. . .
06:24:46 <RodgerTheGreat> the concept of "demanding the right to share" assumes that the creator of a work deserves no rights over what they build. No one has the right to *demand* unlimited access to the creations of another, be it software or music. The right to share must be balanced by the right to keep.
06:25:16 <pikhq> The right to hold back society, you mean?
06:26:23 <RodgerTheGreat> everyone has the right to value their personal interests above those of society if they so choose. It may not be popular amongst "society", but it is a right nevertheless.
06:26:54 <pikhq> A select few (monarchy, the Catholic church, aristocracy, corporations. . . The names change, but not the concepts) restrict what everyone else can do. . . Throughout the ages, this has been the balance.
06:27:14 <pikhq> Why should we respect the rights of a select few, so that the rest of us may be subservient?
06:28:15 <RodgerTheGreat> why should your work in school reward you personally with a high grade, while others in your class suffer with lower grades? Why should the work of your parents go to feed your family first, rather than hungrier families elsewhere?
06:29:39 <RodgerTheGreat> it is built on the very concept I posited earlier, merely applied to different situations.
06:29:47 <pikhq> Software can be copied; if food were like software, nobody would need to starve.
06:30:03 <pikhq> Except, of course, for the wishes of farmers who wished to prevent food piracy.
06:44:55 <Razor-X> pikhq: I don't believe the public has, by birthright of being the public, any more power than a ruler.
06:45:48 <pikhq> We live in a society where (nominally) the ruler is a servant of the public. . .
06:46:07 <pikhq> By that notion, the public has power over the ruler.
06:46:20 <pikhq> (sadly, this isn't how it works in reality. . .)
06:47:07 <pikhq> As proven by the many organizations which are masters over us (Shall I list them?).
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16:00:21 * SimonRC boggles at the mess that is the x86 register set
16:02:59 <SimonRC> all those "string" instructions
16:05:57 * SimonRC grins at the EAX vs AX vs AH vs AL distinction
16:06:30 <SimonRC> lol at the "addressing" registers
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19:21:13 * pikhq has made a program to make strings.bfm maintainence much, much easier
20:00:40 <ihope> So x86 is an ugly kludge?
20:10:22 <ivan`> i want a modern OS that runs on a CA processor
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22:22:46 <pikhq> ivan`: Design a PowerPC system in Wireworld.
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23:23:10 <meatmanek> does postscript count as an esoteric language?
23:23:53 <meatmanek> I guess my first question should have been, what is the definition of an esoteric language?
23:24:18 <RodgerTheGreat> I think postscript counts as an esolang if you code it yourself.
23:24:30 <oerjan> one that was not primarily intended to be useful.
23:24:48 <RodgerTheGreat> those that say otherwise haven't seen the postscript game of life or raytracing simulations
23:25:04 <meatmanek> I just made a postfix graphing calculator
23:25:25 <pikhq> Calling it the HP-49G?
23:25:36 <pikhq> . . . Oh. Postscript.
23:26:48 <oerjan> i don't think postscript is any more esoteric than forth. and i have coded a little in it.
23:27:02 <meatmanek> by the 'not intended to be useful' definition, it probably isn't.
23:27:33 <meatmanek> but it certainly isn't a language most people consider a useful programming language
23:28:02 <oerjan> it is very useful in its domain.
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23:49:46 <Razor-X> I don't think Forth is esoteric.
23:50:08 <Razor-X> It just bridges the large gap between ASM and C.
23:50:17 <pikhq> I think Forth's just a whee bit quirky.
23:50:27 <Razor-X> Each operation is useful though.
23:50:32 <pikhq> Huge difference between "esoteric" and "quirky". ;)
23:50:45 <Razor-X> I think C is da** annoying. Not esoteric though ;)
23:51:51 <Razor-X> We all know that da** is dang.
23:57:58 <Razor-X> So much you know of the unwritten laws of censorship.
00:00:07 <Razor-X> Uggh. You reminded me of an awful SAT article.
00:00:16 <RodgerTheGreat> one could say that it's rejection of traditional artistic concepts is indeed annoying
00:00:35 <RodgerTheGreat> the SAT was easy. I enjoyed it the most the second time I took it.
00:00:56 <RodgerTheGreat> I was really quite disappointed with some of the revisions, however.
00:05:10 <RodgerTheGreat> that's with the latest revision. The national average is approximately 1028
00:07:34 <RodgerTheGreat> (this is for the multiple-choice versions of the test)
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00:56:09 <ihope> (As opposed to "gasp", a very different word.)
00:56:30 <oerjan> hasp: a new esoteric language horrendously mixing haskell and lisp
00:57:01 <ihope> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hasp
00:59:45 <oerjan> but if two stacks can emulate a tape, isn't this then essensially a three-stack language?
01:01:28 <oerjan> now if we used four stacks and let <>^V all act analogously...
01:05:05 <oerjan> not without some heavy copying, i assume
01:05:53 <oerjan> actually, if you have one reserved symbol you could do it with merely a lot of movement
01:06:28 <oerjan> by putting the tops of the stacks at either _end_ of the tape
01:06:45 <oerjan> and letting the bottoms meet in the middle
01:07:05 <oerjan> assuming the tape is infinite in both directions.
01:07:51 <oerjan> otherwise you could still do it by keeping one stack on the odd addresses and the other on the even ones.
01:08:08 <oerjan> sometimes they are endless just in one direction.
01:08:46 <oerjan> but of course all of these _can_ emulate the others, being enough for turing-completeness
01:09:29 <oerjan> no, you just put the reserved symbol on the top positions, and search for them. i am not saying there would be constant-time access.
01:11:09 <oerjan> if you don't then you can code one character set as strings in another.
01:12:57 <oerjan> you can for example code the stack abcdef as 0a0b0c0d0e0f1
01:15:45 <pikhq> I don't see why you couldn't do 2 stacks in a single tape. . .
01:16:07 <pikhq> |s1|s2|s1|s2|. . .
01:16:17 <oerjan> i thought that was what i just said!
01:16:41 <oerjan> about odd and even addresses
01:17:25 <pikhq> (c would be used for stopping a loop for finding stack locations (in Brainfuck).)
01:17:46 <oerjan> that would be combining the two techniques we just discussed.
01:18:24 <pikhq> Didn't pay attention. ;)
01:19:51 <oerjan> it's ok. we hadn't made it explicit how to combine them.
01:20:01 <pikhq> I didn't even read the whole discussion.
01:28:32 <oerjan> imagine if the contents of stacks were stacks
01:31:10 <lament> imagine if the contents of the contents were contents!
01:31:47 <oerjan> imagine if the imagination of the images were imagined!
01:33:20 <oerjan> you could distinguish empty stacks
01:34:51 <oerjan> this is probably rather equivalent to lists in Lisp that only contain lists.
01:36:00 <oerjan> also, it resembles somewhat the coding of set theory, where every element of a set is a set and you can still emulate any mathematical object
01:36:27 <oerjan> well, let 0 = [], 1 = [[]].
01:36:51 <oerjan> now you have enough for a stack of bits...
01:37:13 <lament> i'm not quite sure you can emulate any mathematical object with just sets
01:39:00 <lament> bah, i suppose you can.
01:39:19 <oerjan> just about any. there are some issues with proper classes that create paradoxes if you make them sets.
01:40:08 <lament> i wonder if it's provable?
01:40:16 <lament> oh, true, there's classes
01:41:01 <oerjan> however you can sort of get around that by assuming your classes live as sets in an even larger universe
01:43:44 <oerjan> it's not so silly. there are researchers in logic/set theory that investigate large cardinalities that if they exist, imply there are smaller universes inside your set theory
01:45:07 <oerjan> and if you want to investigate category theory with set theory, you need to make such assumptions to allow you to build the categories you want (categories are major sources of proper classes)
01:45:42 <lament> oerjan: it's not silly in itself, it's silly as a way of reducing all mathematical objects to sets because it doesn't work
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01:46:09 <lament> oerjan: unless you accept paradoxes and treat ZFC as a paradox-free part of the whole universe
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01:46:25 <lament> but, er, i don't think that's generally done
01:47:52 <oerjan> but large cardinalities are essentially about accepting ZFC as a part of something larger. but their existence cannot be proven because of Gdel's theorem.
01:48:37 <lament> you mean something larger but paradox-free?
01:48:49 <oerjan> hopefully paradox-free, yes.
01:49:22 <lament> but i think as long as you try to have "everything is a set", you can't possibly escape russel's paradox
01:49:39 <lament> so no matter what paradox-free stuff you have, you will also have non-paradox-free stuff
01:49:46 <oerjan> it actually combines both Gdel's completeness theorem and his incompleteness theorem.
01:50:57 <oerjan> the completeness theorem says that if you have a model of set theory that is a set, then set theory is consistent, while the incompleteness theorem shows that set theory cannot prove itself consistent.
01:51:49 <lament> that doesn't prove much, does it.
01:52:07 <oerjan> so you can never prove that there are smaller universes, unless you are already inconsistent.
01:53:41 <lament> not sure how that's relevant.
01:55:56 <oerjan> well, it means that while you might be alright assuming all of your mathematics fits into a smaller set, you can never prove it for sure.
01:56:47 <oerjan> small enough to be a set rather than a class.
01:57:04 <lament> how can you possibly fit "the set of everything" that way?
01:58:10 <oerjan> let me try a different tack, which actually is more relevant to making everything a set.
01:58:51 <oerjan> Gdel's completeness theorem says that any mathematical theory which is consistent can be modeled as a set.
02:00:28 <lament> to me that just seems to imply that "the set of everything" is not an object in that model.
02:00:39 <lament> sorry, in that theory.
02:01:24 <oerjan> there is a problem though: if the theory itself talks about sets then the model might represent them as something different than the set of their elements
02:02:00 <lament> right. I guess you could just have a special flag for "whether this set is a set of everything"
02:03:40 <oerjan> well, any "normal" set theory which allows subset comprehension cannot have a set of everything without running into Russell's paradox.
02:05:08 <oerjan> that flag would probably be something like the distinction between proper class and set
02:05:10 <lament> like most of set theory
02:05:20 <lament> this discussion is utterly pointless :)
02:05:43 <oerjan> so we should turn to point set topology then? :)
02:05:48 <lament> nobody seriosly tries representing everything as sets
02:06:08 <oerjan> the ZFC foundation of mathematics does so.
02:06:26 <lament> well, the ZFC doesn't, they freely admit classes
02:06:49 <oerjan> actually they don't it is NBG which does that
02:07:15 <oerjan> slightly different formulation with equivalent results for sets
02:07:26 <lament> well, either they freely admit classes or they simply don't consider a whole class of mathematical objects.
02:07:48 <oerjan> (von Neumann - Bernays - Gdel, I think)
02:08:42 <lament> "class of everything" is clearly a mathematical object, doesn't create any paradoxes, behaves nicely in every respect, and is even rather boring.
02:08:47 <oerjan> nono, there is no class of classes :)
02:09:25 <oerjan> there is however a class of every set
02:10:08 <oerjan> if you want a class of classes you need to add some type theory or large cardinality embedding
02:10:55 <lament> all i want is numbers :)
02:11:11 <oerjan> why then we are all set with the von Neumann cardinals.
02:11:49 <oerjan> fine, use Peano arithmetic.
02:12:53 <lament> i wouldn't even use that
02:13:03 <lament> i would just use integers :D
02:13:27 <oerjan> um, Peano arithmetic uses only natural numbers
02:14:06 <lament> i mean, i don't need to bother constructing stuff
02:14:14 <lament> i will just use integers :)
02:14:35 <lament> after all i've been learning for like 18 years how to use them
02:15:06 <CakeProphet> newoperator $ <param1> newoperator <param2> $ print param1 + param2
02:15:29 <oerjan> well, if you are willing to use induction, then all you know about integers probably includes Peano arithmetic already
02:16:21 <oerjan> what language is that? slightly resembles haskell but not quite
02:16:55 <lament> slightly resembles a horrible haskell slash forth derivative?
02:17:15 <CakeProphet> Not haskell.. just some concept I made up.
02:17:24 <oerjan> nah, newoperator looks infix to me
02:17:36 <CakeProphet> for a programming language that allows you to define new operators with customized grammatical structure.
02:17:45 <lament> oerjan: what CakeProphet just said.
02:18:14 <lament> oerjan: that's Forth, and syntax seems to be forthish
02:18:24 <lament> forth doesn't even have to be postfix, of course
02:19:37 <CakeProphet> (operator name) $ (grammatical syntax) $ (definition)
02:19:51 <lament> CakeProphet: how do you know where the definition ends?
02:20:15 <CakeProphet> *shrugs* Dunno... I'll think of that later.
02:20:28 <lament> i suggest you think about it reasonably soon :)
02:21:08 <CakeProphet> Could probably just denote it with a blank line.
02:21:24 <lament> or a more visible token
02:21:26 <CakeProphet> Unless people absolutely cherish the ability to make blank lines for logical divisions.
02:22:04 <oerjan> you could use indentation
02:22:13 <CakeProphet> and then the other principle I had was "mutual association"
02:22:36 <CakeProphet> Let's say % is the operator for mutual association
02:23:05 <lament> use :( instead, he clearly likes that :)
02:23:46 <lament> so, x returns 2, 2 returns x
02:24:01 <oerjan> in that case you should use :( and :) for the first and second $, respectively.
02:24:17 <lament> are you sure you want 2 to return stuff? it's a number after all
02:24:21 <CakeProphet> If we wanted to make it more esoteric... we could have numbers return their ASCII character correspondent... and have characters return their ASCII ordinals.
02:24:27 <lament> oerjan: speaking of 2 returning stuff, functions are so much cooler than sets.
02:24:44 <CakeProphet> Don't see why not... having rules is for silly people
02:25:17 <lament> oerjan: especially if you allow functions to never terminate to avoid all the boring turing issues
02:25:35 <oerjan> resembles FORTE a bit in that way
02:26:19 <oerjan> that doesn't avoid anything...
02:26:21 <lament> (allow functions to never terminate but still return a value, that is)
02:27:10 <CakeProphet> and then <>'s denote an argument for the operators local scope.
02:27:23 <CakeProphet> with everything else just being themselves (or something they return if they have an association)
02:28:06 <oerjan> that still doesn't avoid anything.
02:28:40 <lament> sorry, what i meant is
02:28:41 <oerjan> remember, the halting problem is essentially the computation version of Russell's paradox.
02:29:23 <lament> have all functions return a value, which might require infinite computation
02:30:08 <CakeProphet> Hmmm.. I need a langauge that has indexed functions... simply because that would be strange
02:30:26 <lament> CakeProphet: you mean functions that behave like arrays?
02:31:06 <oerjan> that would just be a different syntax for function calling
02:31:28 <lament> oerjan: there's no halting problem when everything halts :)
02:32:22 <CakeProphet> so then.... []'s could denote optional gramatically particles in the operators syntax...
02:32:30 <oerjan> no, but you could construct a paradox of sorts.
02:32:44 <CakeProphet> so... the grammar definition would basically look like all those syntax explainations you see.
02:33:37 <oerjan> right, some form of BNF.
02:33:44 <lament> oerjan: yeah, i'm sure you could.
02:34:46 <CakeProphet> blah $ <someparam> [with <someparam1> [in <someparam2>] ] # (code code code code) :P
02:35:11 <lament> suppose you have a function x=-x, what would that return...
02:35:11 <oerjan> actually there might not be a paradox, it would just have strange semantics.
02:35:19 <lament> very strange semantics indeed
02:35:42 <lament> (i guess that function ought to return 0 :D)
02:37:04 <lament> x=x+1 returns infinity...
02:38:15 <oerjan> the problem appears if there is no reasonable fix point for the x = f(x).
02:38:19 <CakeProphet> and \ would be the standard "ignore special stuff associated with the next character" thing.
02:39:03 <CakeProphet> So you could put brackets and tags in your gramar definition without the parser reading it as part of the definitions structure.
02:39:16 <lament> oerjan: yes, but isn't there one always?
02:39:24 <oerjan> the problem with such a scheme is that the syntax will easily become ambiguous if it is too flexible.
02:39:53 <lament> CakeProphet: do look at forth, which works similarly
02:40:14 <lament> you can define new stuff on the fly
02:41:02 <lament> oerjan: hm... type error? :)
02:41:05 <CakeProphet> Well.... with some more polishing... this concept-language would make an excellent language-construction language.
02:41:48 <oerjan> how is there a type error?
02:42:05 <lament> oerjan: i guess if x=x+1 returns infinity (which is not a number) then x=not x returns some kind of Maybe (which is not a boolean)
02:42:34 <CakeProphet> In Python.... x = not x returns the opposite boolean value.... so infinity would have to have some sort of boolean value.
02:42:44 <lament> so the type of the function cannot be deduced simply from what functions it uses internally
02:43:11 <lament> 'not' takes booleans, but we extend it to include the fixed point.
02:43:37 <lament> explicitly define a value as "that which is the fixed point of x=not x" and return that :)
02:43:48 <oerjan> but then infinity becomes essentially a bottom value, in that any function applied to infinity is infinity. in the haskell semantics, this is equivalent to nontermination.
02:44:33 <CakeProphet> x = not infinity could just return None (or nil, or void... depending on your naitive language)
02:45:07 <oerjan> but then infinity would not be a fixpoint of x = not x, and so couldn't be returned by it.
02:45:08 <CakeProphet> say As something that is not in everything is nothing. :D
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02:45:34 <lament> i don't want x = not x to return infinity
02:45:49 <lament> by 'infinity' i meant 'the fixed point of x=x+1' :)
02:46:20 <oerjan> yes, i was referring to cakeprophet's suggestion
02:46:35 <lament> "every type can be extended to include the fixed point of a function returning a value of that type" seems reasonable
02:47:13 <lament> in haskell i suppose the extension is always Bottom but does it have to be?
02:47:52 <lament> x=-x returning 0 is already different semantics from Haskell though.
02:48:12 <lament> x=x would return..... uhh... a randomly chosen fixed point? the class of Everything? dunno.. :)
02:48:43 <oerjan> if you do randomization, then why not just let x=not x return randomly True or False...
02:48:59 <lament> because those are not the fixed points of that function.
02:49:28 <oerjan> you could return sets (:C
02:49:42 <lament> x = x or false would return randomly true or false :)
02:49:46 <oerjan> x=not x returning {True,False}
02:50:10 <lament> it should return the fixed point
02:50:34 <lament> otherwise it's kinda pointless...
02:50:40 <oerjan> but {True,False} would be a fixed point of not, if it acted pointwise.
02:51:37 <lament> then x=x+1 would return Z
02:52:45 <lament> x=x^2 would return the set of all squares :)
02:53:13 <oerjan> actually no. because not all squares are squares of squares.
02:53:38 <oerjan> in fact you would probably return {0, infinity}
02:54:22 <lament> well, inf is not a number so just 0,1
02:54:27 <lament> assuming the default type is integers
02:54:42 <oerjan> but then what about x = x^2+1? :)
02:54:47 <CakeProphet> Hmm.. yeah FORTH looks similar to my idea... but it seems to use different structures and stuff...
02:55:19 <lament> oerjan: that would return "a newly added integer equal to its own square plus 1"
02:55:35 <lament> ...i can see potential for abuse :)
02:56:15 <oerjan> you might do something with nonstandard analysis
02:56:20 <lament> i guess that "newly created integer" IS bottom after all
02:56:37 <lament> since most of the operations are undefined for it
02:57:45 <lament> call this "new integer" q, then q-1 just returns "a newly created integer r", and sqrt(r) returns q
02:58:17 <lament> ...now i'm pretty sure there's gotta a paradox somewhere.
02:58:49 <oerjan> well, it should satisfy q % 3 == 2
02:59:35 <lament> it satisfies a bunch of things
02:59:43 <lament> some of which will probably lead to contradictions
03:00:18 <oerjan> now, what about x = if x == 0 then 1 else 0
03:00:42 <lament> well, obviously that can't return 0 or 1
03:01:11 <lament> although if we use sets like you suggested, then it's just {0,1}
03:01:57 <oerjan> hm... this reminds me of Icon iterators.
03:02:29 <lament> i guess it would return a "newly created integer that is both equal and not equal to zero and one"? :)))
03:02:34 <oerjan> because obviously {0,1} == 0 would have to give {True, False}
03:02:54 <oerjan> and then the if would need to take both branches
03:02:56 <lament> yes, so both 'then' and 'else' are followed
03:03:05 <lament> so it returns {1,0} as expected
03:04:30 <lament> oerjan: i guess the language cannot have an "object identity equality" operator
03:04:38 <oerjan> this reminds me a lot of non-standard analysis, where you add infinite numbers in a consistent way
03:04:47 <lament> oerjan: that always returns true when the operands are the same, and false otherwise
03:05:01 <lament> but if we disallow that, there're no problems once again.
03:05:14 <lament> your function returns something like 0.5 and == has integer semantics.
03:06:14 <oerjan> actually that description fails on x = if x == 0 then 2 else 0
03:06:48 <CakeProphet> Hooks are extremly powerful weapons of mass destruction.
03:07:04 <oerjan> what kind of hooks are these?
03:07:25 <lament> oerjan: by "0.5" i mean "a newly created integer that's equal to both 0 and 1"
03:07:31 <CakeProphet> The kinds that are performed before or after something else automagically.
03:08:09 <oerjan> ah, this thing i've heard mentioned called aspect oriented programming?
03:08:30 <lament> oerjan: hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
03:08:46 <lament> oerjan: if it does return such an integer
03:08:56 <lament> oerjan: then it's effectively the same as returning {0,1}
03:09:22 <lament> call that integer s, then s+s is "new integer that's equal to 0,1 and 2" etc
03:09:27 <oerjan> yes. it seems to me that if x = f(x) goes through a bounded set then it will return that set.
03:09:34 <lament> so we can't avoid returning sets
03:09:49 <oerjan> ah, there is a problem.
03:10:05 <oerjan> it should really just be equal to 0 and 2
03:10:10 * pikhq notes that it's probably already been done
03:10:53 <lament> oerjan: we don't consider the integers to be a ring anymore
03:11:13 <oerjan> we're not in Kansas anymore...
03:11:14 <lament> oerjan: just treat them as a type with operations + and * defined on the "original" integers so that they form a ring
03:11:28 <lament> but they could and will act differently on sets
03:11:50 <oerjan> i think the semantics is turning out even weirder than i expected.
03:12:21 <lament> but no paradox so far! :)
03:12:47 <oerjan> well, you can easily avoid paradox if you are willing to remove all your theorems :)
03:12:51 <pikhq> @ takes two arguments, not one.
03:13:07 <Razor-X> Actually, @ only requires one item already on the stack.
03:13:07 <lament> oerjan: it's a programming language, who needs theorems?
03:13:27 <lament> oerjan: everything will still work provided your program takes care to halt in the "usual" way
03:13:47 <lament> oerjan: and if it doesn't, everything will work "differently" but still in a predictable fashion
03:14:03 <oerjan> Warning: this language solves the halting problem by doing even more unspeakable things...
03:14:39 <pikhq> Warning: this language is in violation of the Laws Of turing.
03:15:24 <Razor-X> Not you EgoBot. Go back to sleep.
03:16:13 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
03:16:15 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
03:16:27 <Razor-X> Don't tell me it's Ruby on Rails.
03:16:39 <EgoBot> To use an interpreter: <interpreter> <program> Note: <program> can be the actual program, an http:// URL, or a file:// URL which refers to my pseudofilesystem.
03:17:05 <EgoBot> Internal Error: Crash: No 'main' function found
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03:17:13 <EgoBot> 69 ++++++++[>+++++++++++++>++++++++++++>++++><<<<-]>.+.>>.<++.<++++++.>. [97]
03:17:15 <EgoBot> Internal Error: Crash: No 'main' function found
03:17:23 <bsmntbombdood> !bf ++++++++[>+++++++++++++>++++++++++++>++++><<<<-]>.+.>>.<++.<++++++.>.
03:17:27 <EgoBot> Internal Error: Crash: No 'main' function found
03:17:39 <Razor-X> What is this ``rail'' hmm....
03:17:42 <oerjan> <Wiki>Rail was invented by User:Duerig in 2005. It is a two-dimensional language along the lines of Befunge and PATH.
03:17:53 <EgoBot> 111 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++>+++++++>++<<<<-]>-.>>.>++.<<<------.>-----.>++++.+.<+.<.>-----.>-.<<.++.>..<. [640]
03:18:03 <Razor-X> Thank you for switching to your browser which I will not.
03:19:11 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon EgoBot reload
03:19:13 <EgoBot> 2 GregorR-L: daemon cat bf
03:19:28 <pikhq> !EgoBot hates infinite loops
03:19:51 <EgoBot> 34 ++++++++[>++++++++++++>>><<<<-]>+. [40]
03:20:03 <pikhq> !cat I also hate you.
03:21:52 <oerjan> i think !flush only does input
03:21:57 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
03:21:59 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
03:22:07 <EgoBot> Use: flush Function: flush the output buffer, discarding any current output
03:22:15 <EgoBot> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
03:22:22 <pikhq> The rest goes to your PM.
03:22:56 <Razor-X> Smashing the EgoBot for Fun and Profit.
03:22:59 <bsmntbombdood> !bf ++++++++++[>>++++++++[>++++++++++++>>><<<<-]>+.<-]
03:24:17 <EgoBot> Pikhq, you really should learn to use messages.
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03:24:59 <bsmntbombdood> !bf ++++++++++[>>>>>>>>>>>++++++++[>++++++++++++>>><<<<-]>+.<<<<<<<<<<-]
03:25:11 <EgoBot> ~}|{zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:9876543210/.-,+*)('&%$#"!
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03:29:12 <Razor-X> Nah. We always find ways to crash EgoBot.
03:29:31 <Razor-X> I'll bet GregorR has sure learned a thing or two about safe computing with us around.
03:30:44 <Razor-X> I remember we crashed it some 4 times in an hour once and GregorR got mad and suspended EgoBot from the channel.
03:37:13 <Razor-X> [Naruto Rip] We are fighting coders! [/Rip]
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03:41:53 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: That would involve a rewrite.
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03:42:48 <pikhq> Now, if we can just exploit a buffer overflow in EgoBot, we can take over his machine. :p
03:42:59 <Razor-X> Nah. He's not *that* stupid.
03:43:01 <pikhq> Download an EgoBot tarball, and scan for buffer overflows.
03:43:30 <pikhq> http://esolangs.org/files/egobot/
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03:48:40 <pikhq> Damn it; he designed it 'well'.
03:49:17 * pikhq wonders how the hell egobotIRC.sh works
03:50:42 <Razor-X> : A-TABLE 255 0 DO I DUP . SPACE EMIT CR LOOP
03:50:56 <Razor-X> Add that word in and execute it. It prints out the ASCII table.
03:53:08 * pikhq looks for a bug in sendOutput
03:59:20 <oerjan> i wondered if that meant _well_ or "well" :)
04:00:32 <oerjan> finally, an EgoBot quine!
04:01:48 <Razor-X> I posted my Forth quine earlier.
04:03:02 <pikhq> !bf ++++++++>++++[-<.>]
04:03:08 <bsmntbombdood> !bf ->+>+++>>+>++>+>+++>>+>++>>>+>+>+>++>+>>>>+++>+>>++>+>+++>>++>++>>+>>+>++>++>+>>>>+++>+>>>>++>++>>>>+>>++>+>+++>>>++>>++++++>>+>>++>+>>>>+++>>+++++>>+>+++>>>++>>++>>+>>++>+>+++>>>++>>+++++++++++++>>+>>++>+>+++>+>+++>>>++>>++++>>+>>++>+>>>>+++>>+++++>>>>++>>>>+>+>++>>+++>+>>>>+++>+>>>>+++>+>>>>+++>>++>++>+>+++>+>++>++>>>>>>++>+>+++>>>>>+++>>>++>+>+++>+>+>++>>>>>>++>>>+>>>++>+>>>>+++>+>>>+>>++>+>++++++++++++++++++>>>>+>+>>>+>>++
04:03:15 <bsmntbombdood> +++++>>+>>++>+>>>>+++>>++++++>>>+>++>>+++>+>+>++>+>+++>>>>>+++>>>+>+>>++>+>+++>>>++>>++++++++>>+>>++>+>>>>+++>>++++>>+>+++>>>>>>++>+>+++>>+>++>>>>+>+>++>+>>>>+++>>+++>>>+[[->>+<<]<+]+++++[->+++++++++<]>.[+]>>[<<+++++++[->+++++++++<]>-.------------------->-[-<.<+>>]<[+]<+>>>]<<<[-[-[-[>>+<++++++[->+++++<]]>++++++++++++++<]>+++<]++++++[->+++++++<]>+<<<-[->>>++<<<]>[->>.<<]<<]
04:03:29 <Razor-X> I think EgoBot can't parse that.
04:03:30 <pikhq> Aaaw; it doesn't do any actual backspacing.
04:04:19 -!- EgoBot has quit (Success).
04:04:37 <Razor-X> Razor-X has not quit: Failure.
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04:05:50 <GregorR-L> Now EgoBot runs through slox, which prevents it from taking 100% CPU :)
04:06:05 <EgoBot> Use: i <pid> <input> Function: send input to a process
04:06:09 <lament> yes, it does input, just no output
04:09:20 <bsmntbombdood> >++++++++++>>+<+[[+++++[>++++++++<-]>.<++++++[>--------<-]+<<]>.>[->[<++>-]<[>+
04:09:23 <bsmntbombdood> <-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>[-]++<<-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>]<<]
04:10:14 <bsmntbombdood> !bf >++++++++++>>+<+[[+++++[>++++++++<-]>.<++++++[>--------<-]+<<]>.>[->[<++>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>[-]++<<-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>]<<]
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04:11:29 <GregorR-L> I can't seem to commit to the esofiles archive >_O
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04:17:02 <Razor-X> ^_O <-- guy wearing a monocle.
04:20:32 <GregorR-L> Anybody active have files access? >_>
04:20:48 <Razor-X> Seems there was a hostile takeover GregorR-L.
04:21:13 <Razor-X> The old Republic of Esome has been overthrown. Long live Easar!
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05:14:48 <thematrixeatsyou> each instruction: 6-bit opcode, two 1-bit flags (0=data is value, 1=data is pointer), two x-bit data slots
05:16:10 <thematrixeatsyou> 16-bit e.g: MOV $2000,($2002) - set data at position $2000 to data at position $2002
05:16:26 <thematrixeatsyou> MOV ($2000),$2002 - set data at position at position $2000 to value $2002
05:17:28 <thematrixeatsyou> MOV $2000,($2002) = 00000101 00100000 00000000 00100000 00000010 = 05 20 00 20 02
05:17:41 <thematrixeatsyou> MOV ($2000),$2002 = 00000110 00100000 00000000 00100000 00000010 = 06 20 00 20 02
05:18:05 <thematrixeatsyou> there's 20 instructions so far and the flags can be read/written individually
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05:31:13 <thematrixeatsyou> 64 potential commands (20 so far) and a reasonable internal cache :)
05:32:36 <thematrixeatsyou> in a 16-bit design: 0000-0FFF = BIOS, 1000-1FFF = fixed memory, 2000-3FFF = cache, 4000-7FFF+8000-BFFF+C000-FFFF = 3 banks
05:32:55 <thematrixeatsyou> each instruction: 6-bit opcode, two 1-bit flags (0=data is value, 1=data is pointer), two x-bit data slots
05:34:47 <thematrixeatsyou> in this 16-bit design, there is a 40-bit read bus and a 16-bit read/write bus. the 24 extra bits in the read bus are available once you activate high-bandwidth mode
05:46:02 <Arrogant> make a brainfuck interpreter in wireworld
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06:15:49 <thematrixeatsyou> NCEA marks: N=not achieved(Fail), A=achieved(Pass), M=merit(Passed Well), E=excellence(Completely Aced)
06:16:16 <thematrixeatsyou> questions can be marked by A, M, or E, some with combinations of the three
06:16:47 <Arrogant> High school exams are just starting to get standardized, bringing in the Cambridge program that'll be covering most of the courses
06:17:10 <thematrixeatsyou> most tests: you need enough A's to get Achieved, enough A's and M's to get Merit, and enough A's and M's and E's to get Excellence
06:17:41 <thematrixeatsyou> english tests: A = answered both parts of the question, M = that done well, E = no fucking hope
06:19:09 <thematrixeatsyou> actually, M = A AND following the standard S.E.X structure (Subject, Explanation, eXample), E = give an indirect opinion
06:23:55 <thematrixeatsyou> excellence questions are the ultimate bitch, yoiu have to explain it as if the examiners were 10-year-olds
06:25:57 <thematrixeatsyou> Some rows seat 24 students and the remainder of the rows seat 18 students.
06:26:17 <thematrixeatsyou> Use algebraic techniques to find the number of rows that seat 18 students.
06:26:45 <thematrixeatsyou> - that would be a relatively easy one if there wasn't the damn explaining.
06:27:03 <thematrixeatsyou> acutally, it's one of the easiest excellence questions i've seen.
06:29:22 <Razor-X> That's an.... excellence question?
06:32:10 <thematrixeatsyou> shoulda explained that w = rows with 24 seats and n = rows with 18 seats
06:32:11 <GregorR> Slox now has a GUI, and lets you change program speed at runtime 8-D
06:32:35 <Razor-X> Incredibly incredibly easy homework.
06:33:08 <Razor-X> My homework right now is 20 problems of finding the relative minima, maxima, intervals of increase, and intervals of decrease of the given function.
06:33:56 <Razor-X> I'm also in the 3rd year of high school.
06:34:06 <Arrogant> I graduated but that's okay, I'm stupid.
06:34:46 <Razor-X> It's only mildly interesting to set theory, IMO.
06:35:17 <Razor-X> But I'm gonna write a symbolic differentiation utility some time later.
06:35:18 <Arrogant> Razor-X is some kind of sorceress
06:35:37 <Razor-X> It's not atypical to take Calculus in HS.
06:36:11 <Arrogant> Don't take your double negatives lightly, missy
06:36:22 <thematrixeatsyou> it's called college here, and i'm going into exams in nearly 2 weeks
06:36:58 <Arrogant> I took Calculus my senior year
06:39:54 <wooby> in new york state the state exams (regents) in the primary subjects usually happen in 10th and 11th grade, or the 2nd and 3rd years of high school
06:40:29 <Arrogant> We have the FCAT down here but that's a joke
06:40:44 <wooby> the NYS regents are more or less also a joke
06:41:00 <Arrogant> AP classes are the "proper exams"
06:41:04 <wooby> most serious students take standardized tests which are often accepted as college credits, AP
06:42:06 <wooby> good thing you didn't take 5 :)
06:42:34 <Arrogant> Would've had to shake it up a little :)
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06:53:57 <Razor-X> I took 2 AP exams last year, I'll be taking 4 (maybe 5) more this year.
06:57:52 <anonfunc> Back to the religious language? :-P
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07:31:27 <thematrixeatsyou> arrogant: finished the memory side of the tape on the interpreter, working on the pointer
07:32:47 <Arrogant> now actually it can't be brainfuck
07:33:04 <Arrogant> i suppose you could ready a stream of bits to be read
07:33:09 <Arrogant> and the output is going to be terrible :D
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07:35:17 <Arrogant> and it doesn't really support letters :)
07:35:40 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
07:35:42 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
07:36:05 <thematrixeatsyou> i actually know how the LCD works and have build an LCD display myself
07:36:32 <Arrogant> the conversions are what kill you
07:36:34 <thematrixeatsyou> then LCD = Liquid Crystal Display: i said Liquid Crystal Display Display
07:37:29 <Arrogant> I think someone should go through the trouble of just making a display that could do Hello, world!
07:38:25 <Razor-X> Where are the Wireworld rules?
07:38:39 <RodgerTheGreat> you'd probably want to make a bitstream decoder that could handle a simple character set
07:40:13 <RodgerTheGreat> this is really an incredible machine: http://www.quinapalus.com/wires11.html
07:40:28 <RodgerTheGreat> as I've said before, I'd be fascinated to code for it.
07:41:08 <RodgerTheGreat> and the computer itself is really quite pretty just to look at.
07:41:52 <Arrogant> unfortunate that the display is rather limited
07:46:11 <RodgerTheGreat> it would be pretty straightforward to build a simple delay line system based on the registers in the computer to serve as a form of buffered input.
07:46:43 <RodgerTheGreat> if electrons moved that slowly, that's how electronics would be.
07:47:45 <Razor-X> ? How would that simulate a computer?
07:48:21 <RodgerTheGreat> notice the irregular design of the bottom registers- those are how you can perform logical and mathematical operations.
07:48:21 <Razor-X> (Sorry, X did one of it's famous I WANTS J00Z CPU temper tantrums.)
07:49:13 <Arrogant> I like that organization much more
07:49:24 <RodgerTheGreat> the entire computer is based on an OISC design, with specialized registers and a writeable program counter providing all desired functionality
07:49:32 <thematrixeatsyou> this is also cool, not wireworld but on the same site: http://www.quinapalus.com/picsi.html
07:49:57 <RodgerTheGreat> I'll bet this would be a snap to extend, although adjusting the clock for a larger storage space might be tricky.
07:52:23 <RodgerTheGreat> as I said, the wireworld computer is a beautiful, elegant machine.
07:57:03 <Razor-X> Truth be told, I'm afraid :D
07:57:30 <RodgerTheGreat> just read through the descriptions- the more I understood about it, the more I was in awe
07:57:54 <Razor-X> Computers tend to lend their analogies to my brain's workings pretty well, no matter what the level. But it seems... incredibly that you're simulating electricity flow (correct?) through WireWorld rules...
07:57:55 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm tempted to make an emulator for the computer itself just for fun- extremely easy to do, really.
07:58:59 <Razor-X> How do you simulate a clock signal?
07:59:08 <Razor-X> Or the concept of time in general?
07:59:29 <Razor-X> Or does the entire system work via an implicit clock because of time flow in the wireworld rules?
07:59:31 <RodgerTheGreat> closed loops that spit out an "electron" at a fixed rate
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08:00:12 <RodgerTheGreat> all of the loopbacks and coils you see in the computer are there to tightly control the amount of time signals take to propogate
08:02:21 <thematrixeatsyou> the binary adders I call "OUT" adders because it looks like they spell "OUT"
08:02:40 <RodgerTheGreat> a BCD signal is sent to each digit, which filters through a ROM to trigger the appropriate domino patterns. these patterns are generated by routing ROM outputs to flipflops/oscilators that "fill" each domino with a series of pulsing electrons.
08:05:13 <RodgerTheGreat> the whole thing is basically a clock that connects to a system that can transfer data between registers. The registers themselves do operations (including the PC), and one is attached to a hex->BCD converter that in turn connects to a multiplexer for each display element. Finally, we have the digits themselves.
08:06:01 <thematrixeatsyou> The instructions are stored in the registers themselves: the source and destination register numbers are coded as six bits each, and stored in the two halves of a sixteen bit value.
08:06:29 <thematrixeatsyou> For efficiency, the next instruction is prefetched while the destination register is being written, and hence there is one branch delay slot.
08:06:39 <RodgerTheGreat> I meant in terms of adding new "instructions" - additional specialized registers
08:07:33 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I think I'm going to get some sleep. G'night, all!
08:15:28 <Sillyman> Anyways, now that we've discussed turing complete simple CA, howabout turing complete complex CA?
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14:32:19 <nooga> pitty that the curent run is ended
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15:25:18 <nooga> am I transparent? ;/
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16:29:05 <jix> nah i don't know a hal quote right now
16:29:08 <jix> that's bad
16:30:14 <nooga> my congrats about ABCDEF
16:30:50 <nooga> pitty that it's too late to contribute sth for the first run
16:33:50 <jix> nooga: it is somehow stalled :/
16:34:43 <jix> nooga: I'm sorry nooga, I'm afraid i can't do that.
16:35:48 <nooga> maybe next time... :>
16:35:52 <jix> (that was a hal quote...)
16:36:17 <jix> but rplace nooga with dave
16:38:20 <nooga> I didn't get it at first ;D
16:45:15 <nooga> currently i'm thinking about WAM based esolang
16:45:41 <nooga> something like twisted and minimal Prolog dialect
16:48:05 <nooga> but I can't find any digestible papers on WAM
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21:13:10 <ihope_> I declare IRP to be either not Turing-complete or not well-defined, by the way.
21:14:03 <ihope_> Unless somebody can come up with a specification of just how other people are supposed to act, that is.
21:14:23 <ihope_> I think most of us will agree that IRP minus network connections is not Turing-complete.
21:19:30 <ihope_> (Oh, and that re-summon was about QBF, not IRP.)
21:19:56 <RodgerTheGreat> my argument for it's turing-completeness (on a network) is that you could theoretically have an infinite number of "CPU's", allowing for unbounded storage and processing.
21:20:38 <RodgerTheGreat> storage is not limited by the spec or the language's implicit details, so it is a turing-complete language
21:25:43 <ihope_> The spec does leave some things undefined.
21:25:54 <ihope_> Actually, it leaves pretty much everything undefined.
21:26:27 <RodgerTheGreat> that doesn't really prevent it from being turing-complete, it just makes the language inefficient and unreliable.
21:27:14 <ihope_> Isn't reliability a requirement for Turing-completeness?
21:28:38 <ihope_> Okay then, here's a new language for you: Wheee.
21:28:49 <ihope_> In Wheee, everything is undefined and implementation-dependent.
21:29:56 <ihope_> Is Wheee Turing-complete?
21:30:02 <RodgerTheGreat> in that case, turing-completeness would be defined by the implementation, rather than the spec.
21:30:40 <RodgerTheGreat> you could say that the spec is, but it doesn't ensure that implementations will even vaguely resemble turing-completeness.
21:31:02 <RodgerTheGreat> this isn't really a problem, because I have yet to see a turing-complete implementation for *any* language.
21:33:58 <ihope_> Well then, isn't Turing-completeness of IRP also defined by the implementation?
21:35:25 <RodgerTheGreat> of course. I assume IRC has limits to the number of users on a channel/server/etc, so there is a finite storage capacity. Ergo, not turing complete. This does not invalidate my previous statement that the *language* is turing-complete.
21:38:36 <lament> ihope_: no, wheee is not turing-complete.
21:38:53 <lament> ihope_: turing-completeness verification shouldn't take implementation-dependent issues into account.
21:39:22 <lament> when verifying turing-completness and the spec says something is "implementation dependent", you might as well take that to mean "the universe implodes"
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23:54:03 <lament> Razor-X`: please add 1 and 1
23:54:49 <pikhq> Razor-X`: Please interprete the following Brainfuck code: ,[.,]
23:55:39 <Razor-X`> That's what happens when you try and interprete BF code with me.
23:55:46 <xor> !i 1 hi bob
23:55:50 <pikhq> You're not Turing complete.
23:56:07 <pikhq> You didn't interpret the code.
23:56:15 <Razor-X`> No, I didn't. I intepreteed it.
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02:55:46 <oerjan> hi and beware of the cannibals.
03:00:23 <oerjan> somehow that doesn't sound very tasty.
03:01:39 <thematrixeatsyou> !funge93 0"yrgnuh saw doodbmobtnmsb :detceted msilabannaC">:#,_@
03:01:42 <EgoBot> Cannabalism detected: bsmntbombdood was hungry
03:02:18 <EgoBot> 1 thematrixeatsyou: funge93
03:02:30 <EgoBot> 1 thematrixeatsyou: funge93
03:02:42 <pikhq> !daemon cat bf ,[.,]
03:02:50 <pikhq> !cat Welcome back, cat.
03:03:10 <EgoBot> Cannabalism detected: bsmntbombdood was hungry
03:03:22 <pikhq> Besides, glass is nicer.
03:03:47 <pikhq> !daemon cat bf ,[.,]
03:03:57 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... building a Brainfuck interpreter in a 2 dimensional map-like programming language is pretty interesting.
03:04:02 <EgoBot> thematrixeatsyou has special powers, admire him
03:05:01 <pikhq> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"See? Glass is t3h nice"(_o)o.?]}
03:05:04 <EgoBot> See? Glass is t3h nice
03:05:40 <CakeProphet> Oh... well after briefly reading how Befunge works... my language is looking a lot like it. :P
03:08:13 <CakeProphet> but the concept of befunge is similar to this one...
03:10:00 <pikhq> !glass {M[m(_i)I!(_o)O!(char)(_i)c.?=(noteof)(_i)e.?=/(noteof)(char)(_o)o.?(char)(_i)c.?=(noteof)(_i)e.?\]}
03:10:08 <EgoBot> 2 pikhq: daemon cat bf
03:10:14 <pikhq> If I did that right, it's a Glass Brainfuck program.
03:10:45 <pikhq> If I *didn't* do it right, as I believe I have, it's a bunch of gibberish.
03:11:23 <pikhq> Did it slightly wrong.
03:12:47 <pikhq> !glass {M[m(_i)I!(_o)O!(_a)A!(char)(_i)c.?=(noteof)(0)(_i)e.?(_a)e.?=/(noteof)(char)(_o)o.?(char)(0)(_i)c.?(_a)e.?=(noteof)(_i)e.?\]}
03:13:30 <pikhq> I'mma gonna stop the glassing.
03:14:31 <pikhq> Now go and code it.
03:14:47 <CakeProphet> I think one of the main differences in Befunge and this language is that this language can have more than one pointer at a time, and have multiple stackes which are represented in the codespace by characters.
03:24:16 <CakeProphet> ~ #This is a mouse... a pointer character. Default direction is set to south
03:24:20 <CakeProphet> ! < #continuously append all values in the mouse to all stacks/queues adjacent to the asterick
03:24:24 <CakeProphet> ~ #This mouse represents each value in the input...
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04:04:49 * pikhq prefers Dimensifuck.
04:16:16 <calamari> anyone know of a way of setting nonblocking input so that a read request always returns immediately?
04:16:37 <calamari> I can do it inside a c program, but it doesn't seem to persist outside it
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04:19:09 <pikhq> Wouldn't you just set stdin to be unbuffered?
04:19:34 <calamari> pikhq: setting it unbuffered means I can press one char without enter
04:21:35 <calamari> maybe it's just something Gregor would have to implement in the interpreter
04:22:00 <oerjan> you could probably use a pipe
04:23:06 <calamari> setting unbuffered is easy, can use stty for that
04:23:30 <oerjan> how do you set nonblocking in C?
04:23:58 <calamari> long flags = fcntl(STDIN_FILENO, F_GETFL);
04:23:58 <calamari> fcntl(STDIN_FILENO, F_SETFL, flags | O_NONBLOCK);
04:24:20 <calamari> but it seems to stop working once the program exits
04:27:15 <oerjan> but getc would block anyhow wouldn't it?
04:27:44 <oerjan> are you trying to change terminal settings?
04:27:48 <pikhq> *echm* How, exactly, are you supposed to keep getting input after a program exiting?
04:30:06 <calamari> put in an endless while loop, it reads a char, if its -1 it outputs char 0, otherwiste it outputs the char it read
04:30:21 <calamari> so then I pipe that to the program
04:31:23 <oerjan> right. however doesn't that prevent you from detecting real EOF?
04:33:12 <pikhq> Just if(feof(stdin)) putc(FEOF);, I think. ;)
04:34:27 <calamari> the whole idea of this is that input is from the keyboard
04:34:53 <pikhq> ^D says otherwise.
04:35:34 <oerjan> you could always check for the value 4.
04:35:51 <pikhq> Then how are you supposed to quite a program?
04:36:14 <oerjan> unbuffered input doesn't have ^D handling anyhow.
04:36:39 <calamari> pikhq: run a dos program.. they had many ways of exiting their programs..
04:37:09 <pikhq> I'd prefer, say, EOF.
04:37:50 <calamari> so which char would you overwrite for eof.. 1?
04:38:01 <oerjan> as i said, check for the value 4 = ^D
04:39:01 <pikhq> Output EOF; it's a declared constant in stdio.h that should *gasp* send EOF down the line. (IIRC)
04:40:16 <pikhq> calamari: Dude, let egobfi8 handle the EOF->Brainfuck char conversion.
04:40:22 <pikhq> (it defaults to 0)
04:41:04 <calamari> to indicate no input was available
04:41:30 <pikhq> You've got "nonblock" handling EOF->0 conversion, when egobfi8 already handles that.
04:41:49 <pikhq> Seems a bit pointless, doesn't it?
04:41:55 <oerjan> if you are reading from a raw terminal, then there is no such thing as EOF.
04:42:02 <calamari> pikhq: do you have a point or are you just trying to be argumentative?
04:42:12 <pikhq> oerjan: ^D == EOF.
04:42:28 <oerjan> right, so let brainfuck check for that.
04:42:41 <pikhq> calamari: Sure: my point is that converting EOF to 0 in "nonblock" is redundant.
04:43:18 <calamari> pikhq: I'm not converting EOF to anything in nonblock
04:43:20 <oerjan> but if he sets the terminal to raw, then nonblock will not convert EOF to 0, but to 4
04:43:56 <calamari> pikhq: when I read from getchar() it returns -1 if no char is waiting. I translate that to 0
04:44:07 <pikhq> Oh. Misunderstood.
04:44:43 <oerjan> well so did i at first.
04:45:03 <calamari> 4 works fine .. might as well support ^D and Esc
04:45:33 <pikhq> Going to make a Brainfuck BFAudio player that supports forward/back? :p
04:45:57 <calamari> nope! hopefully this will be more fun than that
04:47:11 <calamari> I feel bad it's so linux dependent.. er wait, no I don't screw windows users.. their zombied machines pollute my inbox with spam
04:47:26 <pikhq> Cygwin will probably run it.
04:47:35 <pikhq> As will Mac OS neXt.
04:58:15 <Razor-X> I feel C should have a unified pointer size, instead of int pointers, char pointers, etc. You can move pointers using pointer arithmetic and sizeof.
04:59:07 <Razor-X> calamari: I can try and port it to Java. I need the experience for the AP test.
04:59:28 <pikhq> So, all pointers should be void *?
04:59:49 <Razor-X> calamari: Whatever that's Linux dependant.
04:59:58 <calamari> this unportable hack of a program we've been discussing?
04:59:58 <Razor-X> Then you can have something like ptr+= sizeof (char) .
05:00:08 <Razor-X> calamari: I haven't scrolled up far enough.
05:00:37 <Razor-X> bsmntbombdood: I know, I know.
05:00:57 <Razor-X> You can also have ptr += sizeof(int) happy ?
05:02:27 <pikhq> And intptr++; for horrible borken unportable code.
05:02:58 <oerjan> well, nothing is preventing you from doing that already by using only void * pointers...
05:03:03 <Razor-X> Well, ptr++ increments the pointer by a byte.
05:03:26 <Razor-X> As it is, int, float, and all of that business is machine dependant.
05:03:44 <pikhq> Only a char has a guaranteed size in bytes.
05:03:44 <GregorR> Razor-X: I believe that would be painful, and would not make anything more intuitive.
05:04:05 <calamari> there we go.. rolled unbuffered nonblocking and no echo all into one horrible prog
05:04:10 <Razor-X> GregorR: Well, I think it makes the abstraction more clean, personally.
05:04:22 <GregorR> It makes the abstraction more clean, yes.
05:04:37 <GregorR> But the current way makes the abstraction easier.
05:04:38 <pikhq> It also adds to Cobolitise.
05:04:52 <Razor-X> As a beginner, it was one of my pitfalls. It took me a bit to realize that pointer arithmetic behavior depends on the type of pointer.
05:05:03 <oerjan> one thing i worried about - won't that nonblock program write a horrible lot of nuls?
05:05:10 <GregorR> I guarantee you that if they changed it the opposite would be the pitfall.
05:05:34 <calamari> http://kidsquid.com/files/bf/unbb.c
05:05:39 <GregorR> pikhq: "Mac OS neXt" You sir are a genius.
05:05:53 <GregorR> What's this unportable hack of a program that we're discussing?
05:05:55 <pikhq> GregorR: I don't clame any credit.
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05:06:13 <pikhq> From a friend of mine from the LUG who's a mild Mac fan.
05:06:14 <calamari> GregorR: "<calamari> there we go.. rolled unbuffered nonblocking and no echo all into one horrible prog"
05:07:22 <Razor-X> I think the way Forth handles memory management is nice.
05:07:43 <pikhq> I prefer the Lisp method.
05:07:49 <pikhq> Garbage collection=:)
05:07:52 <Razor-X> Lisp doesen't have memory management.
05:08:04 <pikhq> Yeah; it's above that. ;)
05:08:08 <Razor-X> But hey, Forth doesen't have any of those annoyances like ``int'' or ``char'' or ``float''.
05:08:31 <bsmntbombdood> doubles taking up two spaces on the stack is annoying though
05:09:29 <GregorR> calamari: But why? What does it /do/?
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05:10:02 <calamari> GregorR: well, I needed timing information
05:10:29 <calamari> GregorR: the only way I can think of doing that in bf is to have the user press enter.. wait a predetermined time, then press enter again
05:10:55 <calamari> so if the read blocked, obviously this doesn't work
05:11:04 <pikhq> You. . . I. . . GRRRAWRRR.
05:11:36 <Razor-X> So are you using a timer ?
05:11:55 <Razor-X> calamari: Why not just use select() ?
05:12:16 <Razor-X> Are you adding a timing extension to BF?
05:12:19 <calamari> that's one of those bf commands I must have missed ;)
05:13:02 <Razor-X> What are you attempting to do, then?
05:13:43 <calamari> hmm maybe I should use space rather than enter.. to avoid the whole enter vs return thing :)
05:21:48 <calamari> not working very well yet.. may need to use a different scheme like holding down a key or such
05:22:02 <calamari> probably because it puts the cpu at 100%
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17:55:04 <GregorR-L> I think a power outage just ruined my bloody uptime.
17:56:03 * Asztal ponders on the way the W3Schools XSL-FO tutorial doesn't really *explain* anything
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19:20:59 <oerjan> i have a rather wicked idea for an esolang
19:22:08 <oerjan> somewhat based on Unlambda
19:23:57 <oerjan> it would be a higher level language, incorporating some inventions of modern functional languages
19:24:43 <oerjan> every object would not just be a function but also belong to a monad.
19:25:10 <oerjan> and the evil part is that application would be replaced by monadic bind
19:25:56 <oerjan> so to know what a ` actually means, you would have to know the monad of its second argument.
19:30:47 <oerjan> if it can be pulled off, it should have static type (or monad) inference
19:33:08 <oerjan> s would probably be polymorphic.
19:34:41 <oerjan> although a dynamically typed version might have the advantage of being simple enough that i actually get around to implementing it...
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00:51:55 <ihope> oerjan: ` doesn't really mean much, monad-wise.
00:52:22 <ihope> Just the S and K combinators should work, except make it ap and return instead of S and K.
00:53:06 <oerjan> well the point is not to do that.
00:53:54 <ihope> The point is not to use ap and return instead of S and K?
00:54:10 <oerjan> let me look up the definition of ap.
00:54:33 <ihope> ap :: m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b
00:58:34 <oerjan> hm, consider ``sAB with that definition.
00:59:09 <ihope> A and B are of the same monad. A contains a function, and B contains the argument.
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01:00:12 <oerjan> let A :: m (a->b) then.
01:00:58 <oerjan> then s :: (a->b) -> m <something>
01:01:41 <ihope> s :: m (a -> b) -> m a -> m b.
01:02:04 <oerjan> no. ` is bind, remember.
01:02:47 <oerjan> ` :: Monad m => (a->m b) -> m a -> m b
01:03:22 <oerjan> so s with your type would not fit.
01:05:36 <oerjan> on the other hand haskell types may not fit well either. Monads are tracked partially separate from the functional type.
01:06:10 <oerjan> not that i have thought much about whether this works at all.
01:06:46 <oerjan> in particular, m1 a and m2 b could be the same type.
01:08:58 <ihope> In your language, you mean?
01:12:32 <Razor-X> More examples of Forth code: Print out an ASCII table formatted to 5 entries per line.
01:12:33 <Razor-X> : A-TABLE 128 33 DO I . SPACE I EMIT SPACE I 28 - 5 MOD 0 = IF CR THEN LOOP ;
01:12:42 <Razor-X> Then run A-TABLE and all is well.
01:13:11 <xor_> Razor-X: capital letters suck
01:13:25 <Razor-X> xor_: Nah. It makes the code look more awesome :P
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01:13:55 <Razor-X> Oh, and that's an ASCII table for all the printable characters, by the way.
01:14:14 <oerjan> however, making `k A B act like return A seems reasonable
01:15:54 <ihope> Oh, by the way, I somewhat designed a programming language.
01:16:12 <ihope> I'm not sure just how esoteric it is.
01:16:27 <oerjan> maybe it's a p-language then :)
01:16:50 <ihope> It's assembly-like.
01:17:18 <ihope> Possibly easy to compile into x86.
01:17:46 <oerjan> what is Erna, apart from a Norwegian party leader?
01:18:16 <Razor-X> Even read C.S. Friedman's Black Sun Rising series?
01:19:21 <ihope> Just what's x86 like?
01:19:55 <ihope> Impossible to virtualize?
01:20:31 <oerjan> i thought virtualization on x86 was all the rage nowadays
01:20:52 <ihope> Hard to virtualize?
01:21:00 <Razor-X> Well, x86 is a lot better than the z80 ASM on TI.
01:21:05 <Razor-X> That's just my opinion though.
01:21:50 <ihope> Well, surely x86 doesn't meet the Chaim-Potok virtualization requirements or whatever they're called.
01:23:22 * oerjan isn't going to pretend he understands what ihope is talking about.
01:24:26 <Razor-X> But who cares about that? Since when has anything popular *ever* followed standards?
01:24:30 <Razor-X> I mean, look at Microsoft.
01:24:44 <oerjan> ah, definitely not Chaim-Potok. he wrote "My name is Asher Lev".
01:25:12 <oerjan> which i've never read but it was in my parent's bookshelf
01:25:54 <ihope> Ah, it's the Popek and Goldberg virtualization requirements.
01:26:11 <oerjan> the main character in that novel, i assume
01:26:13 <Razor-X> Goldberg, Chaim, same difference.
01:26:31 <Razor-X> GregorR, Gates, same difference.
01:27:37 <oerjan> if you say so. you couldn't get gregorR to send me a couple million dollars?
01:27:50 <Razor-X> Nah. Ask his wife for that.
01:28:24 <Razor-X> Also, something tells me ihope knows who Asher Lev is.
01:28:52 <ihope> No idea, until I read the Wikipedia article.
01:29:02 <ihope> My English teacher assigned us The Chosen.
01:30:24 * Sgeo was a showoff in math today
01:30:46 * Sgeo is actually trying to show off here by mentioning this
01:31:39 <ihope> What'd you show off about?
01:32:03 <Sgeo> In Calculus, we started integrals
01:32:23 <Sgeo> So I showed that I already knew the stuff we were learning today
01:33:12 <Asztal> aww I thought I was the youngest one here :(
01:33:31 <ihope> Unless one of you's younger than me.
01:33:46 <Asztal> Well I did 1st year calculus 3 years ago... ;)
01:33:57 <ihope> I'm not to calculus yet.
01:33:58 * Sgeo is in High School
01:34:30 <ihope> I'm in pre-calculus, and I could be about the youngest guy in there.
01:34:40 * oerjan feels like he has one foot in the grave in this company.
01:35:13 <Asztal> <ihope>` doesn't really mean much, monad-wise.
01:35:15 <Asztal> Just the S and K combinators should work, except make it ap and return instead of S and K.
01:35:19 * Sgeo wonders if there's a way to find out who's the youngest by comparing years without actually revealing age..
01:35:24 <oerjan> someone yesterday said he was 15
01:35:25 <Asztal> ^ yeah, but I understand none of that ;)
01:35:43 <oerjan> i don't think it was any of you speaking now
01:35:45 <ihope> Sgeo: I turned 14 some days ago. Are you younger than that?
01:39:13 <oerjan> a great chance of employing zero-knowledge proofs wasted :/
01:39:29 <Sgeo> oerjan, that's what I was trying to refer to
01:40:01 <Sgeo> How would we do a zero-knowledge proof thingy here?
01:40:59 <ihope> Zero-knowledge proof?
01:41:31 <oerjan> a cryptographical technique for proving you have some knowledge without revealing it
01:42:14 <Sgeo> How could that be done in chat?
01:43:16 <oerjan> i'm sure it would be verbose. we would have to simulate the algorithm
01:44:06 <oerjan> although first we would perhaps have to find an algorithm.
01:45:30 <oerjan> i think it is based on huge keys like in RSA.
01:49:54 <ihope> Let's try to come up with a zero-knowledge proof.
01:51:09 <Sgeo> http://www.cs.fit.edu/~msilaghi/secure/
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01:57:22 <Razor-X> My math teacher chews and spits out show-offs.
01:57:36 <Razor-X> And with Calculus III under her belt, I'm not one to challenge her.
01:58:21 <xor_> I hate math class
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02:18:50 <CakeProphet> to do a zero knowledge proof... you need to only do this.
02:20:05 * oerjan thinks the prophet must have eaten some bad cake
02:21:07 <Sgeo> Razor-X, what do you mean "chews and spits out show-offs"?
02:21:28 <ihope> The theory of everything is actually *
02:21:43 <Sgeo> ihope, I thought it was more like .*
02:22:04 <ihope> No, that's the regex of everything.
02:22:26 <ihope> Actually, the theory of everything is this: forall a. a
02:22:37 <ihope> I.e. "everything is true".
02:27:09 * Sgeo still wants to conduct zero-knowledge proofs in this channel
02:27:33 <oerjan> to get a COUNTEREXAMPLE, use the theory of something: exists a. a
02:28:09 <CakeProphet> -D|5╫aT╫4╘4G╢♥3-4A☺☼49§☼457c╞7524☻455»-┐M+B!☻♦♦♣455♦♣-445♦64654♦♦♣:7♪û☺jä1▼4
02:29:06 <oerjan> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_multiparty_computation, there are links to programs
02:32:40 <oerjan> oh, you were linking to one of them
02:34:10 <Sgeo> Fairplay looks more flexible somehow
02:34:14 <Sgeo> But not enough docs
02:34:56 <oerjan> ah, SMC is a programming language
02:34:57 <ihope> oerjan: the theory of something contradicts the theory of everything?
02:35:46 <oerjan> of course. the theory of everything after all implies that everything contradicts everything.
02:36:18 * pikhq proposes a formal system of logic where everything I say is right
02:36:18 <oerjan> http://www.cs.fit.edu/~msilaghi/SMC/tutorial.html
02:36:50 <ihope> The theory of everything is pretty darn inconsistent, you know.
02:37:08 <ihope> Not that there are actually different levels of being inconsistent.
02:37:29 <oerjan> ah but there are in relevance logic
02:38:15 <oerjan> there, a contradiction from some propositions cannot affect irrelevant ones
02:38:26 <Sgeo> SMC confuses me
02:40:29 <Sgeo> Why is oblivious transfer important?
02:41:27 <oerjan> ah, Fairplay is a predecessor to SMC for only 2 participants
02:41:42 <xor_> sounds interesting
02:42:26 <oerjan> i don't know but wikipedia said that oblivious transfer could be used to construct secure multiparty computations
02:44:27 <Sgeo> http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:oMqmmv1jYlAJ:csrc.nist.gov/kba/Presentations/Day%25202/Jablon-Methods%2520for%2520KBA.pdf+%22Zero-knowledge+password+proof%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3&client=opera
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03:08:15 <xor_> aaaaah where's egobot
03:08:37 <xor_> How did he taste?
03:08:58 <oerjan> like an electronic chicken
03:10:11 * pikhq likes Japanese. . .
03:10:55 <pikhq> But I used "oishii".
03:17:48 <oerjan> i say tomato, you say tomato...
03:18:25 <pikhq> I say tomato, you say redrum.
03:19:57 <xor_> because I'm already drunk?
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03:38:26 <pikhq> xor_: Get MORE DRUNK!
03:40:40 <xor_> too drunk==not fun
03:41:13 <xor_> little drunk==fun
03:56:18 <xor_> cattttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
03:56:31 <oerjan> ddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddog
03:57:22 <xor_> concatenaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate
04:20:09 <Razor-X> I say 「あの人々は子供の動くようがあったし」 you say 「ナニッ？！子供心はとても主なことだったネ」.
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11:17:16 <EgoBot> cannot write checkpoint image
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13:02:42 <ihope> From now on, everything in this channel must follow Wikipedia official policies.
13:03:17 * ihope nominates his above statement for deletion, it being non-notable original research
13:04:34 <ihope> Oh, it's protected? Some administrator needs to unprotect it.
13:05:06 * ihope nominates that for deletion as well, for the same reason
13:08:09 * Asztal nominates User:ihope for deletion
13:09:01 * ihope votes "speedy keep"
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16:26:04 * SimonRC decides that assembley would be great for functional programming.
16:26:14 <SimonRC> Functions really *are* data there.
16:26:31 <SimonRC> although the RO and NX bits may get in the way :-(
16:26:56 <SimonRC> also, by fucking with the stack pointer, you can easily do coroutines
16:29:34 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm working on my synthesys reference interpreter at the moment- I think I'm going to need to figure out how to use HashMaps in Java to do this properly.
16:32:31 <SimonRC> The trick to doing this kind of thing in Java is:
16:44:15 <RodgerTheGreat> sweet. these things are actually *really* easy to use.
16:45:02 <RodgerTheGreat> a hashmap is a perfect way to keep track of the name->value correlations for variables.
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19:01:03 * calamari just found a major bug in bfbasic
19:01:17 <calamari> something has gone wrong with do/loop
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19:12:07 <ihope> Are you somehow using Python to do esoteric things with Wikipedia or something?
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19:25:01 * calamari wonders who ihope is talking to
19:25:31 <ihope> To SevenInchBread.
19:25:39 * Sgeo wonders where calamari sees ihope talking
19:25:55 <ihope> <ihope> Are you somehow using Python to do esoteric things with Wikipedia or something?
19:26:36 <ihope> Where's Python come in, then?
19:26:49 <Sgeo> What's SevenInchBread doing with Wikipedia?
19:27:16 <ihope> Are you doing it to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_(programming_language)?
19:27:35 <SevenInchBread> It is within the rustle of every leaf... in the blooming of every flower.
19:27:58 <SevenInchBread> ihope, Your question reflects the true answer that is.
19:28:37 <xor_> It would rock even more if it didn't use indentation
19:28:59 <SevenInchBread> ...pretty much every language uses indentation as a standard precedure....
19:29:02 * Sgeo <3 the indentation
19:29:19 <SevenInchBread> I mean... is it any worse than asking you to put {}'s around everything? :P
19:29:39 <xor_> because the indentation gets screwed up easily
19:30:18 <SevenInchBread> Nah... it's simple to fix... most of the screw-ups are just errors caused by mismatches parenthetical thingies somewhere.
19:30:42 <Sgeo> DM uses indentation
19:31:30 <ihope> Use Python without the indentation stuff.
19:32:33 <SevenInchBread> Unless you don't plan on using ifs, whiles, fors, or defs.
19:32:43 <ihope> Can't you use functions for if, while, and for?
19:33:21 <SevenInchBread> you could make one.. but that would require a def... which require indentation./
19:33:37 <ihope> Well then, only use... three blocks?
19:34:05 <SevenInchBread> and the interpreter usually autoindents everything for you... so... it's not like it's difficult or anything.
19:34:46 <SevenInchBread> you just have to dedent with a backspace at the end of the block... which is, in my opinion, much easier to do than shift+}
19:35:56 <xor_> It's very easy to screw up the indentation
19:36:26 <pikhq> C-j says otherwise.
19:36:37 <xor_> Editors will do it for you, I know, but just try editing in a different editor or posting it somewhere
19:36:52 <xor_> I don't mean mess it up while coding
19:37:00 <pikhq> SevenInchBread: BTW, God coded in Lisp.
19:38:20 <SevenInchBread> xor_, Why would you be editing Python outside of a Python editor?
19:38:20 <xor_> prefix notation, postfix notation
19:38:45 <pikhq> Nah, he just coded the Lisp interpreter in Forth.
19:40:07 <xor_> What's a python editor?
19:40:36 <xor_> some editors use tabs, some use 4 spaces, some use 2, some use 8
19:41:17 <SevenInchBread> the Python interpreter requires that only the indention of a certain indent level remains constant.
19:41:28 <xor_> "def foo():\n stuff()\n\tmorestuff()\n"
19:41:37 <SevenInchBread> and I'm pretty sure most editors auto-detect the indent settings being used.
19:41:53 <xor_> also, you can't cram a lot of code on one line
19:42:42 <xor_> if x: stuff(); else: oh wait, i'm screwed
19:44:07 <Sgeo> SevenInchBread, hm?
19:44:45 <SevenInchBread> prime = lamba nums: filter(lamba x: Ture not in map(lamba primecheck: x % primecheck == 0, range(2, x/2)), nums)
19:44:56 <SevenInchBread> I might have screwd it up.. I never saved it so I just sorta made it off of memory.
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19:46:31 <xor_> You can't use normal code on just one line
19:48:15 <SevenInchBread> Python isn't supposed to do one-line statement-expression type things.
19:48:36 <xor_> But try and post your code to a forum that removes indentation
19:49:00 <pikhq> xor_: That would be called "borken".
19:49:07 <Asztal> or find a better forum. :)
19:49:15 <xor_> There are almost no decent languages that are whitespace sensitive
19:49:23 <SevenInchBread> most forums have a [code][/code] feature for preformatted stuff.
19:49:43 <SevenInchBread> Python is only whitespace sensitive at the front of a line.
19:49:50 <pikhq> It's whitespace sensitive.
19:49:59 <xor_> It would be better if it wasn't
19:50:03 <pikhq> Therefore, there's at least one decent language that's whitespace sensitive.
19:50:14 * SevenInchBread honestly doesn't understand how whitespace sensitivity makes a language better.
19:50:25 <xor_> There are _almost_ no decent languages that are whitespace sensitive
19:50:45 <pikhq> Most of them actually seperate tokens by whitespace.
19:51:09 <pikhq> Unless "chari=5;" means anything in C?
19:51:10 <SevenInchBread> I don't see how a language would find tokens easily without using whitespace.
19:51:56 <pikhq> Or "intmain(intfoo,charbaz){charbar=foo+baz;return(bar);}"?
19:52:46 <pikhq> SevenInchBread: "char i" would define a variable 'i' of type char, not a variable named "char i".
19:53:16 <pikhq> It's called "a typed language".
19:53:34 <SevenInchBread> >>> prime = lambda nums: filter(lambda x: True not in map(lambda primecheck: x % primecheck == 0, range(2, (x/2)+1)), nums)
19:56:02 <SevenInchBread> but now with the release of Python 2.5... the only control flow statements that don't have an expression equivalent are while and with
19:57:28 <xor_> you can do that in 2.5!
19:57:31 <pikhq> Must be hell to parse. XD
19:58:05 <SevenInchBread> squared = [n * n for n in (ThisList if HellFrozenOver == True else SomeOtherHellFriendlyList)]
19:59:51 * xor_ gets python 2.5
20:00:29 <xor_> I think python just got 2.5 times better
20:00:50 <SevenInchBread> yeah... but they're thinking about removing lambda in version 3
20:01:23 <SevenInchBread> which isn't that terrible... list comprehensions can pretty much do anything lambda could do...
20:01:44 <pikhq> foreach n [expr $HellFrozenOver ? $ThisList : $HellFriendlyList] {append squared [expr $n*$n]}
20:02:12 <SevenInchBread> looks like Perl... anything with $'s looks like Perl to me.
20:02:57 <xor_> you cant do "print x if y"
20:04:01 <xor_> print 2 if x else print 1
20:04:05 <xor_> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
20:04:23 <SevenInchBread> Because you can't just make print magically print nothing when you're telling it to print something.
20:05:21 <Sgeo> Wouldn't it be
20:05:45 <xor_> sys.stdout.write("1") if 1 else sys.stdout.write("2")
20:05:52 <Sgeo> print (2 if x else 1)
20:06:25 <xor_> print (2 if 1 else 1)
20:06:55 <Sgeo> My thing works
20:07:01 <Sgeo> (2 if x else 1) is a value
20:07:15 <Sgeo> print could just print that
20:07:52 <Sgeo> SevenInchBread, what version of Python?
20:08:04 <xor_> $ python2.5 --version
20:08:05 <Sgeo> >>> print (2 if 1 else 1)
20:08:09 <pikhq> SevenInchBread: That was Tcl.
20:09:01 <pikhq> puts [expr 1 ? 2 : 1]
20:09:24 <pikhq> % puts [expr 1 ? 2 : 1]
20:09:44 <Sgeo> SevenInchBread, worked for me
20:10:11 <Sgeo> SevenInchBread, "with" doesn't change color in IDLE
20:10:20 <xor_> >>> print (2 if 1 else 1)
20:10:24 <xor_> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
20:10:51 <xor_> ooops wrong version
20:11:30 <Sgeo> import sys; sys.version
20:12:00 <SevenInchBread> Sgeo, You need to enable it via the __future__ module.
20:12:20 <xor_> not in python2.5
20:13:02 <xor_> why not in 2.5?
20:13:23 <SevenInchBread> maybe for bug testing... or to make sure it's safe or something.
20:14:16 <xor_> iterator.send(x)
20:14:17 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:17:10 <xor_> idle-python2.5
20:17:44 <xor_> with open('/etc/passwd', 'r') as f:
20:19:10 <xor_> "After this statement has executed, the file object in f will have been automatically closed, even if the 'for' loop raised an exception part-way through the block."
20:19:33 <SevenInchBread> but it has some extra funcionality with user-made classes.
20:19:49 <SevenInchBread> Most of Python's power is in its object-oriented stuff.
20:19:59 <xor_> "the context management protocol"
20:20:38 -!- ivan` has joined.
20:20:47 <SevenInchBread> I like the direction they're going with the whole "type/class unification" thingy.
20:21:07 -!- EgoBot has joined.
20:21:07 <EgoBot> cannot read elfstream /home/gregor/esoteric/egobot/egobot/daemons/.cat
20:21:26 <pikhq> !daemon cat bf ,[.,]
20:21:46 -!- ihope__ has joined.
20:21:50 <xor_> "The context manager must have __enter__() and __exit__() methods."
20:23:39 <SevenInchBread> On user-made classes.... __enter__() and __exit__() will be called to specify what exactly happens in the with statement.
20:24:08 <SevenInchBread> Like how __eq__() controls what happens when you use an instance in an == operation.
20:27:33 -!- SevenInchBread has changed nick to SixInchBread.
20:28:42 -!- SixInchBread has changed nick to SevenInchBread.
20:32:20 <xor_> I never understood method decorators
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20:46:58 * SimonRC point out that FORTRAN and INTERCAL don't need whitespace at all.
20:47:18 <SimonRC> the language Whitespace needs whitespace, though
20:47:29 <xor_> That's what the docs call them
20:47:41 <SevenInchBread> Basically the __'s are just there to tell the user that the method is called somewhere special.
20:52:00 * SimonRC likes the Haskell program in which evey variable is named by a string of ?????
20:53:19 <SimonRC> you get lines like: let(???????)???(????????????????)=(??(?????))in(???????
20:54:08 <xor_> haskell is weird
20:54:36 <Sgeo> How do I replace "!@#$%^&*()" with a particular number in JavaScript?
20:55:12 <SimonRC> is there an "indexof"-type function?
20:57:48 -!- SimonRC has changed nick to VickyPollard.
20:57:55 -!- VickyPollard has changed nick to SimonRC.
21:13:01 <ihope__> SimonRC: I like strings of underscores better.
21:13:20 <ihope__> It's harder to count long strings of underscores.
21:13:28 <ihope__> _ being reserved is a good thing. :-)
21:15:58 * ihope__ has n40ber 36c2 6n and 5s 4s5ng a 3a*t6*
21:16:37 <SimonRC> you're writing in leet now?
21:16:53 <SimonRC> oh, wait, you have the nu pad on
21:22:40 <SimonRC> the thing that says /*-789+4561230. on it
21:24:36 <RodgerTheGreat> is there anyone here familiar with perl that thinks they could help me figure out what I'm doing wrong here? http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1162675301.html
21:26:26 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:27:20 <SimonRC> have you tried putting a lod of prints in there?
21:28:17 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I put in a "print $x;" down by where I increment $x, and it never prints, so it may be getting caught in the ][ handlers somewhere...
21:29:19 <RodgerTheGreat> I just decided to learn it this afternoon, and I figured a BF interpreter was a fairly good starting point.
21:30:58 <ihope__> Nah, you should write a PE -> PE compiler.
21:31:08 <ihope__> One that adds virtualization.
21:33:19 <oerjan> silly ihope, this is a talk page, not an article page.
21:34:27 <oerjan> referring to your wikipedia policy
21:34:28 * ihope__ adds another instruction to his assembly-like language, making it 50
21:34:41 <ihope__> Am I supposed to sign all my messages, then?
21:34:57 <ihope__> s/instruction/nine instructions/
21:35:27 <oerjan> fortunately, you already do so.
21:35:52 <oerjan> a little backwards, though
21:36:12 <ihope__> I thought the servers did that.
21:36:17 <oerjan> well, _i_ certainly see your nick before your messages.
21:36:31 <Asztal> oerjan: what a ridiculous idea!
21:36:51 <Asztal> IRC is much more fun when the server supports anonymous channels. :)
21:36:59 <oerjan> so? in wikipedia you just push a button.
21:37:03 * ihope__ adds instruction number 51 to his language
21:37:14 <oerjan> don't even need to write your name
21:37:55 <oerjan> we do have a nearly anonymous channel here. it's called /msg egobot !cat
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21:38:46 -!- EgoBot has joined.
21:39:19 <oerjan> i hope that had no connection to what i said.
21:39:19 <ihope__> input, output, finish, jump, set, add, subtract, mult, div, mod, and, or, xor, nand, nor, nxor, equal, nequal, less, great, lesseq, greateq, popa, popb, pusha, pushb, user, popt, pusht, peeka, peekb, peekt, sizea, sizeb, sizet, rjump, load, retrieve, info, djump, drjump, popba, pushba, peekba, popbb, pushbb, flipa, flipb, call, choose
21:39:48 <ihope__> And actually, we need popbt, pushbt, peekbt, and flipt, too.
21:40:04 <oerjan> some of those sound like they're from some weird african language
21:40:33 <ihope__> "Popbt" = "pop from the bottom of the trap stack".
21:41:21 <ihope__> Anyway, this makes it 55 instructions.
21:41:22 <oerjan> you simply have to add a peekaboo instruction. so says i.
21:41:52 <oerjan> something with peeking and booleans, perhaps.
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21:46:17 <ihope__> Oh, and "popbt" is actually "pop from the bottom of the trap stack unless in user mode and the stacktt register is nonzero, in which case the instruction pointer as seen from system mode is to be pushed to the trap stack, system mode is to be entered, and a jump is to be done to the location in the stacktt register, or the trap stack is empty, in which case the jump instruction is to be...
21:46:19 <ihope__> ...called with the location in the stackte register".
21:46:27 <oerjan> referring to god, he coded in the following language: ftp://ftp.nvg.ntnu.no/pub/frc/39
21:46:50 <ihope__> It's one of those fancy assembly languages with support for system mode and user mode and all that stuff.
21:51:44 <ihope__> And I wondered why these assembly languages had to have so many instructions.
21:52:34 * ihope__ adds instruction number 56: cancel
22:02:20 * ihope__ finds his typing is not impaired that much when he removes his right index finger
22:03:59 <oerjan> i'm sure if you used a knife it _would_ impair it a great deal.
22:03:59 <pikhq> Did you remove it using a knife or something?
22:04:24 <ihope__> I stuck it in the thingy of a pen.
22:04:37 <ihope__> The thingy you use to stick it on things.
22:05:15 <oerjan> there is room for a finger in that?
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22:41:36 <oerjan> rodgerthegreat: i think you should set $iptr=0, not -1.
22:42:00 <oerjan> alternatively use ++$iptr instead of $iptr++.
22:42:15 <RodgerTheGreat> ah- that may be the issue. I confused pre and post increment
22:42:49 <oerjan> i cannot see why that should cause an infinite loop though.
22:43:06 <oerjan> do you use the -w flag?
22:43:25 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I commented out the [] code, and it doesn't i-loop anymore- still working on it
22:43:38 <Razor-X> I've been setting it aside.
22:44:00 <Razor-X> Aha. Language innaguration with a BF interpreter?
22:44:21 <Razor-X> (I'm doing the same in Forth.)
22:45:39 <Razor-X> I wrote all the code to deal with everything but [] and the actual parsing itself.
22:46:32 <Razor-X> I also thought up a new technique of representing the BF pointer that may be handy in writing an ASM version.
22:48:51 <Razor-X> The BF pointer is just an offset from the address of the first cell in the BF tape in memory.
22:52:37 <pikhq> I just got bored and did a Tcl Brainfuck interpreter.
22:52:43 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. I guess I'll try rewriting my postconditionals in a normal fashion- they might be causing some of my problems.
22:52:46 <pikhq> And I found something that I don't know in the language.
22:52:54 <Razor-X> It's a bit challenging in Forth. A bit.
22:52:58 <pikhq> How the hell are you supposed to get only a single char from stdin?
22:53:30 <Razor-X> Also because I'm trying to use as little non-stack memory as possible.
22:53:50 <Razor-X> I only allocate a dynamic amount of memory for the tape, and a variable to hold the size of the tape.
22:54:03 <Razor-X> The rest is just crafty usage of the main and return stacks.
22:59:38 <Razor-X> The Forth people are correct too. I suffer from a typical problem. I try and overplan.
22:59:58 <Razor-X> I hate it when I spend 10 minutes weighing an implementation idea in my head for advantages and disadvantages.
23:02:57 <oerjan> RTG: i note you are writing $x++;$ctr++ if $p[$x]=="["; . you are not wrongly assuming that the if would scope over both statements?
23:04:26 <RodgerTheGreat> x should be scoped higher than everything- it's defined on line 3.
23:04:48 <oerjan> that's not what i meant.
23:05:12 <oerjan> i wondered why you aren't splitting that into two lines...
23:05:56 <RodgerTheGreat> and I intended for X to be incremented for every iteration of that loop.
23:06:21 <oerjan> so that part is correct.
23:10:34 <oerjan> well, everything seems correct to me.
23:12:47 <oerjan> do you have an example program and input that goes wrong?
23:15:30 <oerjan> well it tells us something: , and . are working.
23:16:17 <RodgerTheGreat> if I run the same program with "ABC" as input, it outputs "ABC".
23:21:11 <oerjan> i am suspecting that your split("", does not work properly.
23:22:00 <oerjan> try replacing "" with //.
23:22:46 * pikhq has his Tcl Brainfuck interpreter working. . .
23:25:38 <oerjan> aha. you really should have used the -w flag.
23:25:59 <oerjan> it turns on lots of warnings.
23:27:56 <oerjan> what was it, apart from the @p array being strangely empty?
23:28:26 <RodgerTheGreat> the warnings telling me that I'm comparing numeric cells to a character.
23:32:31 <oerjan> ah. i got the warnings flying by so fast i didn't see that.
23:32:59 <oerjan> does it work when you change to string comparison?
23:33:58 <RodgerTheGreat> I double-checked everything it was giving warnings about, and it doesn't seem to fix things.
23:36:54 <RodgerTheGreat> that's the debugging I was using to make sure x incremented properly. you can take that line out.
23:37:17 <oerjan> actually i'll rather add some more...
23:37:47 -!- ihope__ has changed nick to ihope.
23:37:52 <oerjan> ok, it actually goes through the commands. although it seems to have an off-by-one error at the end.
23:38:21 <oerjan> ah, that's probably just the \n character.
23:40:12 * pikhq loves how his BF interpreter works. . .
23:40:23 <pikhq> We compile to Tcl, and evaluate the compiled code. XD
23:41:34 <oerjan> ah, interesting. reading the input gives the wrong character.
23:43:28 <oerjan> no. it was that $iptr=-1 thing.
23:45:21 <oerjan> the test worked. ,+. with ABC now gives output B and just that.
23:46:11 <oerjan> all == except one changed to eq
23:46:41 <oerjan> it's string comparison.
23:47:08 <oerjan> man perlop is your friend.
23:48:24 <oerjan> http://home.nvg.org/~oerjan/test.pl
23:49:15 <RodgerTheGreat> erm... 404. if you want, you can use http://nonlogic.org/dump
23:53:24 <oerjan> ok, http://nonlogic.org/dump/text/1162684351.html
23:57:04 <oerjan> also, the following man pages are good for reference: perlop, perlfunc and perlre.
23:58:32 <oerjan> and of course man perl to find all the other documentation.
23:59:58 <Sgeo> Are we going to work on the Factory language?
00:00:16 <oerjan> AH! Run away, run away!
00:01:09 * oerjan regrets participating in the creation of a monster.
00:04:03 <RodgerTheGreat> the results of the last Adjudicated Blind Collaborative Design Esoteric Factory run are a horrible monstrosity.
00:04:21 <Sgeo> What's wrong with it?
00:04:46 <pikhq> And it's not been made, thus the Adjucated Blind Collaborative Design Esoteric Factory run isn't done.
00:06:00 * Sgeo wishes he did variables in branch labels and allowed 0 in the CHANGE(?) thingy
00:19:57 <ihope> My language has room for five more instructions.
00:20:32 <ihope> I thought it would fit quite easily into 63, but already I have 58, and I might need more later.
00:20:49 <ihope> Oh, wait, 64 would be the maximum.
00:20:52 <Sgeo> strange num.. oh
00:22:41 * Sgeo generally likes and recognizes numbers of the form (2^n±.5)
00:23:05 * Sgeo generally likes and recognizes numbers of the form (2^n-.5±.5)
00:23:43 <Sgeo> Where n is a positive integer ofc
00:23:44 <ihope> So six more instructions.
00:23:55 <oerjan> have you added peekaboo yet? :)
00:23:56 <ihope> Not a nonnegative integer?
00:24:13 <ihope> My language doesn't exactly have booleans.
00:24:53 <oerjan> Branch On something, then.
00:24:56 <ihope> And peekaboo would require peekbboo, peektboo, peekbaboo, peekbbboo, and peekbtboo.
00:25:15 <oerjan> there you are, 6 instructions.
00:25:24 <ihope> Yep, that'd fill it up quite nicely.
00:25:30 <ihope> But... branch on what?
00:25:56 <ihope> "Peek stack a; branch on overflow"?
00:26:14 <ihope> Would the stack overflow from being peeked?
00:27:31 <ihope> And most peekaboos wouldn't make sense without popaboos.
00:27:39 <ihope> And possibly pushaboos.
00:28:05 * ihope suddenly decides he needs stack rotation
00:28:22 <oerjan> actually, another option is to make aboo similar to a, b etc.
00:28:52 <ihope> "Peekaboo" meaning "peek both A and B"?
00:29:10 <oerjan> that's not what i mean but that could be neat too.
00:29:23 <ihope> What do you mean, then?
00:29:39 <oerjan> i mean, then you could have popaboo and pushaboo but not need peekbboo etc.
00:30:17 <ihope> aboo isn't a stack.
00:30:30 <oerjan> well, whatever a, b etc. are
00:30:30 <ihope> There are three stacks, and they're called A, B, and T.
00:31:12 <ihope> And... well, I just added six stack rotation instructions.
00:31:45 <oerjan> YOUR LANGUAGE IS NO FUN!
00:31:59 <ihope> But it has the "select" instruction from INTERCAL!
00:32:45 <ihope> And it has an instruction whose purpose is to be left up to the implementation to... implement!
00:33:18 <ihope> It's the "info" instruction, and it means "push a zero, then push some numbers that aren't zero".
00:34:05 <ihope> And... there should be six of that, too, since every stack operation needs to have six instructions.
00:34:12 * ihope makes the total 69 instructions
00:35:04 <ihope> Okay, let's increase the cap to 128 instructions.
00:35:31 <oerjan> you suddenly lost a bit for other purposes.
00:35:32 <ihope> And leave out the poor little 6-bit computers.
00:35:51 <ihope> It's your fault I have so many instructions, despite the fact I came up with all of them myself!
00:36:27 <oerjan> you could make it 81 instructions on a trinary machine.
00:36:42 <ihope> But the instructions aren't ternary.
00:36:57 <ihope> How do you do a ternary nor?
00:37:24 <ihope> Or any ternary not, I guess.
00:37:49 * ihope realizes he has no "not" instruction
00:37:57 <ihope> Also, negative numbers.
00:38:15 <oerjan> negative numbers are easy if you make your trits -1,0,1.
00:38:28 <ihope> Oh, yeah. Balanced ternary.
00:39:27 <oerjan> or should that be terts?
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00:41:07 <Asztal> I'm not sure there is a ternary not
00:41:37 <ihope> Any unary tritwise operator could be considered one, other than identity.
00:41:39 <Asztal> like how XOR splits into ^ and ?
00:41:43 <Sgeo> (looping increase)?
00:41:57 <oerjan> actually not should be an involution.
00:42:43 * Sgeo thinks that that might be actually impossible in ternary
00:43:01 <ihope> 012 -> 102, 012 -> 210, 012 -> 021.
00:43:01 <Sgeo> not 0 => 1, means not 1=>0
00:43:07 <oerjan> on the other hand, if you also add the requirement not x != x, then indeed it is impossible.
00:43:07 <Sgeo> So what happens to not -1?
00:43:12 <Asztal> that sounds like unary but
00:43:55 <ihope> Real (Wom|M)en ignore the leading zeros in unary.
00:44:01 <oerjan> with balanced ternary, not = negation seems the obvious canditate.
00:44:32 <Asztal> one of my favourite quotes from the intercal manual involves balanced ternary
00:49:57 <Asztal> http://pastie.caboo.se/21233
00:50:03 <Asztal> (that took far too long to find)
00:58:51 * oerjan is probably immune to such head banging.
01:00:12 * pikhq recently discovered a major bug in BFM. . .
01:00:23 <pikhq> It didn't have a 99 Bottles of Beer implementation.
01:00:46 <oerjan> that counts as a bug these days?
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01:01:06 <pikhq> Closest I can find at the moment.
01:01:20 <pikhq> http://pikhq.nonlogic.org/bottles.bfm So, I fixed it.
01:26:00 <ihope> I guess I oughta come up with all the semantics of this language.
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01:32:52 <Asztal> I've now managed to get wrapping working (in my first test) in my befunge98 interpreter :D
01:33:22 <Asztal> I still don't understand how these intersection functions I wrote work, because of the 101 corner cases I didn't expect, but it seems to be working!
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01:51:00 <ihope> If you write code and it works, but you don't know why it works, you should consider rewriting it.
01:51:44 <pikhq> Or do as Perl does, and declare it to be magic.
01:53:02 <Asztal> I know why it works, it's just I had to change it so many times to get it to work that it's quite different from the code I started out with and many of the function names are.. wrong somewhat
01:53:22 * Sgeo has some code with some "code superstition" somewhere
01:53:28 * Sgeo thinks he removed that stuff :(
01:53:57 <Sgeo> " #The code doesn't seem to work without these lines
01:53:57 <Sgeo> #This is how code superstition starts..
01:53:57 <Sgeo> #Instead of crashing on start, these lines make it crash on select
01:53:57 <Sgeo> #def on_TextField1_loseFocus(self, event):"
01:54:22 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/haver/pycardhaver/templateNoMenus.py.txt
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02:41:26 <Sgeo> http://thedailywtf.com/forums/thread/99550.aspx
03:06:57 <rt> http://brainwagon.org/files/jhconway.c
03:08:12 <SevenInchBread> locals()[lambda("self")].__dict__[lambda: "__class__"()].__dict__[lambda: "".join(dict("lol":"__len__").values())()] = lambda self: tuple(self.__dict__[lambda: "subTags"()].__dict__.[lambda: "__class__"()].__dict__[lambda: "".join(list("".join(list("__len__"))))()].__call__.__call__.__call__.__call__(), self.__dict__[lambda: "".join(list("".join(dict("hahahahahaahahahahahahahaahhahahahaahahahahaha
03:08:13 <SevenInchBread> ha":"values").values()))))()].__dict__.[lambda: "__class__"()].__dict__[lambda "".join(list("".join(list("__len__"))))()].__call__.__call__.__call__.__call__())
03:08:29 <SevenInchBread> Although I could have went further... but I got tired.
03:10:29 <rt> strangely enough, i dont find that particualrly artful.
03:13:16 <xor_> lol wtf is that?
03:18:17 <oerjan> hey, it looks like something a chimp could have typed ;)
03:21:08 * Sgeo pokes people towards the WTF he posted
04:02:44 <ihope> Hibernate, hibernate, hibernate, they say...
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05:22:06 <xor_> x=[1]; x.append(x)
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05:36:46 <xor_> cirular reference
05:39:02 <xor_> in C it would take an infinite amount of memory
05:39:16 <pikhq> It'd just eventually segfault.
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05:44:49 <xor_> What would make that list in lisp?
05:46:20 <xor_> actually, in c, it would be int x[2]; x[0]=1; x[1]=x;
05:48:12 <oerjan> you mean (let ((x '(1))) (rplacd x x) x)
05:48:18 <oerjan> or something like that.
05:48:34 <pikhq> I'm a Tcler, as you all should know. . .
05:49:01 <pikhq> [lappend x $x 1] gives you the same list in Tcl, BTW.
05:49:40 <oerjan> haskell _would_ be x = [1,x] except that is a type error.
05:50:31 <oerjan> x = [1] ++ x works nicely though.
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13:57:19 <ihope> Eh, I'll just email this interpreter to a random person.
14:04:15 <ihope> Actually, I have some FTP thing somewhere, don't I?
14:12:33 <ihope> Well, yes, but I don't remember where.
14:12:48 <ihope> So I have three email addresses.
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14:19:12 <ihope__> As in in this file, there are three email addresses.
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15:21:33 <Razor-X> What happened to the committee meeting, t3h committee members?
15:23:14 <Razor-X> Now we won't get any judging done :(
15:23:24 * Razor-X thinks this is a plot by pikhq to win the contest.
15:24:49 <ihope> Committee meeting?
15:26:13 <ihope> I didn't hear about it.
15:26:29 <Razor-X> Well, I need GregorR and RodgerTheGreat to make a new date.
15:27:06 <ihope> When was it supposed to be?
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15:51:38 <ihope> Now, is it O_< or >_O that GregorR says?
15:56:19 <ihope> (Suddenly, I feel an urge to leave all channels except #haskell.)
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18:47:45 <Aardwolf> can a language that uses only a stack on which you can only push, pop and read the top number, be turing complete?
18:48:49 <lindi-> Aardwolf: push-down automata?
18:49:07 <Aardwolf> I guess so, let me look at the wiki
18:51:47 <Aardwolf> I'm looking at the pushdown automaton article of wikipedia (because voxelperfect isn't responding to me at the moment), and the wikipedia article isn't making clear to me whether a push down automaton is a subset of a finite automaton or vica versa :/
18:53:18 <lindi-> Aardwolf: check chomsky's hierarchy
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19:35:42 <ihope> Now I know where GregorR hangs out all the time.
19:39:55 <ihope> What I don't know is how to get these files to him.
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21:45:30 <ihope> 8.98755179 * 10^16 joules.
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23:01:33 <GregorR> I'm doing some computer spring cleaning.
23:01:41 <GregorR> I'll bring it back up in about 35 DVDs.
23:04:40 <SimonRC> you should use a heavily-mirrored fileserver
23:05:58 <GregorR> And burning to DVD has nothing to do with space (though it is to free space :P ), it's more like spring cleaning - eg, I'll have a nice, empty, uncluttered disk.
23:09:21 <SimonRC> you mean that you will get rid of all the crap files, registry cruft, etc?
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23:13:52 * GregorR agrees with xor_'s assertion: "lol windows"
23:20:45 <Sgeo> What, I can't have windows in my house?
23:21:06 <GregorR> AIR CONDITIONING WORKS BEST WITH WINDOWS /CLOSED/
23:22:03 <oerjan> darn, is that why my laptop fan is so noisy...
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01:43:24 <oerjan> are you referring to the game of life (in which case you are being silly) or do i need to explain lorentz transformations?
01:45:03 <lament> game of life of course
01:45:41 <lament> precisely because relativity doesn't hold
01:47:32 <oerjan> it wouldn't be very useful if the construction is already minimized in size
01:48:26 <oerjan> to get speedup all over it would have to contract constantly.
01:52:41 <pikhq> Which would imply a finite lifespan.
01:53:08 <pikhq> Or somewhere, somehow, it expanded. . .
01:53:39 <pikhq> Which would only allow for a speedup where, during the expansion time, nothing would be done in that region *without* the contraction rigamarole.
01:59:56 * Sgeo is glad to have initiated this discussion
02:00:28 <Sgeo> I'd still like to see that Factory language get somewhere
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07:04:19 * rt was thinking that the perfect name (had it not already been taken) for sort of the "anti" Second Life would have been Halflife. It's a massively multiplayer game, but you never see anyone, the environment is just your dingy apartment, surrrounded by coke cans and pizza boxes, where your only interaction with others is by typing on your virtual computer, but there are no women, only guys.
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08:23:15 <Razor-X> In order to clarify something I said quite a while back:
08:23:50 <Razor-X> The reason Lisps don't have explicit OOP systems is because it's marginally easy to create most OOP abstractions, and only a bit more difficult to implement a full OOP system.
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08:37:11 <nooga> Stack underwear ;p
08:37:20 <nooga> Stack of underwear
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14:16:35 <xor_> <Razor-X> The reason Lisps don't have explicit OOP systems is because it's marginally easy to create most OOP abstractions, and only a bit more difficult to implement a full OOP system.
14:16:48 <xor_> Razor-X: That doesn't go just for lisp
14:17:16 <xor_> Razor-X: It's easy to code OOP in C
14:25:31 <GregorR> Pushing abstractions out of the language and main library leads to multiple, conflicting implementations.
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16:24:49 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR: someone else on the internet has used your source image! http://thefunniest.info/images/eCG0H4
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17:42:39 * pikhq has finally bothered figuring out how to use bignums. . .
17:42:58 <pikhq> (in C++; the C++ GMP bindings are a good deal nicer than the C ones)
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00:01:28 <Razor-X> GregorR: Well, that's one of Lisp's double-edged swords.
00:01:28 <Razor-X> The whole point is that, Lisp allows you to create abstractions specific to your problem. Now where that leads you is up to debate.
00:01:28 <Razor-X> Paul Graham, though, will argue for Lisp I'm pretty darn sure :D
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02:58:42 <Razor-X> I've never been to a class about programming.
02:58:52 <Razor-X> So I don't know how awful/good they are on the whole.
02:59:07 <xor_> They are terrible
02:59:23 <xor_> hackers are usually free-learners
02:59:59 <Razor-X> Classes make things more boring on the whole.
03:01:52 <Razor-X> Programming is one of those things, IMO, that are learned best in a loose master-apprentice fashion.
03:02:21 <xor_> I don't think so
03:02:24 <Razor-X> From chatting with different programmers, the mental devices (especially the ``homegrown'' ones) programmers use to code are so varied, a class just doesen't cut it on its own.
03:02:35 <xor_> Then you go to your "master" whenever you have a problem
03:02:47 <Razor-X> The master guides and challenges through interesting assignments, until the apprentice is strong enough to leave.
03:03:18 <xor_> Straight out of star wars ;)
03:03:44 <Razor-X> Didn't see it until you said that, heh.
03:08:30 <Razor-X> In fact, I think that would be an interesting project in general. Create a wiki panel with a bunch of programmers that can program in different languages giving out assignments at different difficulty levels, and whenever one of us has the time, we can look over the wiki submitted entries, so it doesen't force anyone to a schedule.
03:11:03 <Razor-X> And it's just a shame so few people use BASIC-derivatives nowadays. It's horrible.
03:11:28 <Razor-X> I wonder how many of us grew up with a BASIC of some sort on some device (C64 BASIC, QBASIC, Apple BASIC, etc.)
03:11:32 <xor_> Why should anyone code in basic?
03:11:53 <Razor-X> A basic language that can be pretty powerful too.
03:12:20 <xor_> ...but not BASIC
03:12:41 <Razor-X> I'm not talking about 10 PRINT 20 GOTO style either.
03:18:04 <rt> when i was a younger, everybody said that basic was terrible, and would ruin young programmers. now, we have programmers learning perl and php as first languages. i'm pretty sure that isn't an improvement.
03:18:21 <Razor-X> Perl as a first language? Ugggh.
03:18:37 <Razor-X> Even Python is a sort of a experiment in marriage.
03:19:05 <rt> i find python to be at least relatively undamaging.
03:19:45 <Razor-X> Young programmers nowadays learn Java like little robots and never learn anything else again, because they make a series of mundane projects that never actually need something powerfully abstractable or something low-level.
03:20:03 <xor_> Java is so terrible
03:20:05 <lament> experiment in marriage?
03:20:12 <RodgerTheGreat> I really think BASIC *is* a good beginner's language, if only because it's imperative.
03:20:14 <lament> your face is an experiment in marriage!
03:20:28 <rt> if there is some reason that might make java the most reasonable choice for a program, i haven't discovered it yet.
03:20:38 <Razor-X> C# is better, even if it's Microsoft based.
03:20:39 <xor_> RodgerTheGreat: Why not a more moderm imperative language?
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03:21:01 <rt> i actually think python makes a good choice for the role that basic used to fill.
03:21:18 <lament> i'm not sure what's wrong with basic.
03:21:30 <lament> it's a horrible language, but i don't see how it causes brain damage.
03:21:34 <RodgerTheGreat> BASIC has evolved over the years, and I'm not talking about Blitz or VB.
03:21:37 <rt> weak abstractions. weak data types.
03:21:46 <Razor-X> C has strong abstractions and strong data types?
03:21:47 <lament> ie, it's horrible but anybody sane will realize that it's horrible and move on.
03:21:54 <GreaseMonkey> well, c++ causes brain damage in the way that it makes skiddies think they're 1337
03:22:00 <xor_> basic isn't going to be usefull
03:22:04 <RodgerTheGreat> it has some overhead issues, but DarkBASIC pro kicks ass
03:22:04 <rt> no, but c at least has the advantage of being reasonably efficient.
03:22:12 <rt> c++ is of course abominable.
03:23:21 * Sgeo was pushed into ##please_register
03:23:24 <Sgeo> I tried to talk
03:23:25 <Razor-X> Look up the ASCII code yerself, bum.
03:24:07 <Razor-X> Why is BASIC so ineffecient?
03:24:25 <Razor-X> I mean, any language that has weak data types/abstractions should be easy to optimize.
03:25:08 <rt> well, i must admit, i'm an old timer, and used basic back in the days when relatively trivial interpreters were the norm.
03:25:32 <Razor-X> I'm not so sure how fast more modern BASICs are.
03:25:38 <Razor-X> But I would think it fast.
03:25:47 <xor_> My first language was QBASIC, and I learned it by purley coding in it
03:25:49 <Razor-X> Since I bet a lot of it can be done as ASM.
03:25:54 <xor_> no syntax help or nothin
03:26:27 <rt> any language complicated enough to require syntax helpers is just too wrong.
03:26:48 <xor_> What's a syntax helper?
03:26:57 <RodgerTheGreat> most modern BASIC implementations aren't slowed down because they're BASIC, rather because of all the cool features (3D, etc) that are new
03:27:24 <RodgerTheGreat> and because of this, for making things like games, BASIC is plenty fast- all the grunt work is handled by the interpreter
03:27:38 <Razor-X> Why *is* BASIC even interpreted nowadays?
03:28:28 <RodgerTheGreat> and DB proper compiles to bytecode and is tacked onto a runtime module
03:28:49 <Razor-X> Better than interpretation.
03:29:14 <Razor-X> I've done only a little Pascal, and this was years back. How's that on the difficulty curve? It struck me as really similar to C.
03:29:18 <RodgerTheGreat> I don't know much about blitzBASIC aside from the fact that it shouldn't be called BASIC at all...
03:29:32 <Razor-X> BlitzBASIC abstracts *way* too many things.
03:31:04 <Razor-X> Hey. Scala doesen't look too bad.
03:31:08 <RodgerTheGreat> BlitzBASIC looks like the bastard child of Java and C- it has nothing in common with BASIC.
03:31:43 <RodgerTheGreat> it uses curly brackets, predefined hard-typing, .-notation function chaining...
03:32:31 <xor_> I remember when I was coding in qbasic and I discovered strings
03:32:45 <xor_> It was amazing
03:33:40 <Razor-X> Don't whet our appetites like that :P
03:33:45 <RodgerTheGreat> I wasn't implying that there's a language called Cminus
03:35:43 <GreaseMonkey> "We use Linux to UP our productivity -- so UP yours!"
03:36:13 <xor_> Linux can calculate an infinite loop in 7 seconds
03:41:33 <Razor-X> One thing before I start homework:
03:41:44 <Razor-X> Paul Graham always makes Lisp seem like the best language in the world.
03:42:03 <Razor-X> So if you want to know why Lisp is good, read one of his essays, and take that as a fundamentalist's overexaggeration.
04:20:24 <lament> you know what's a good programming language?
04:20:51 <xor_> Nobody's happy
04:21:14 <xor_> Each programming language just isn't good for everything
04:21:21 <lament> GreaseMonkey: pretty much everything.
04:21:29 <lament> GreaseMonkey: i can think of very very few tasks i would use C for.
04:21:37 <xor_> except everything
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04:22:17 <lament> GreaseMonkey: the main thing is the lack of a good way to build abstractions.
04:22:30 <lament> the other main thing is no bounds checking for arrays.
04:22:58 <xor_> do that yourself
04:23:25 <xor_> arrays in C aren't like a list, they are just a way to access memory
04:23:56 <lament> xor_: sure, this would be fine if you COULD build lists in a sane fashion.
04:24:07 <lament> xor_: but as i said, the lack of a good way to build abstractions in the main thing.
04:24:09 <pikhq> They're a thin abstraction around what amounts to statically allocated memory.
04:24:25 <lament> xor_: no, i'm afraid you can't, not in my experience.
04:24:40 <xor_> Just have the first element be the length
04:24:51 <lament> xor_: that's not an "abstraction"
04:25:02 <xor_> I don't know what you mean by that
04:25:02 <pikhq> C would be nice if it had a nicer way to define datatypes.
04:25:06 <lament> xor_: that's an "implementation" but there's no abstraction involved.
04:25:16 * pikhq likes the C++ way at the moment
04:25:40 <xor_> So "abstraction"==hiding the implementation?
04:26:14 <lament> in effect, you want a new language feature, lists.
04:26:29 <lament> in something like Lisp, when you don't have a language feature, you can add it seamlessly.
04:26:37 <lament> in something like Python or Java you can sort of do it with objects.
04:26:50 <lament> in something like C, you can barely do it at all.
04:26:56 <xor_> do it oop style
04:27:13 <lament> I'm not saying Lisp is the best for programming, but it does have the most powerful abstraction mechanisms (that i'm aware of)
04:27:27 <xor_> There is nothing to add on to in lisp
04:27:38 <lament> oh, there's always something to add on.
04:27:49 <xor_> I mean, of course it's seamless
04:28:19 <lament> consider math notation
04:28:32 <lament> you have symbols that stand for objects and symbols that stand for operations
04:28:42 <lament> and when you don't have something, you simply define more notation
04:29:03 <xor_> and in lisp, everything is notation
04:29:25 <lament> not sure what you mean by that. "notation" is just a synonym for "syntax"
04:29:46 <lament> in every language, everything is notation
04:29:47 <xor_> Lisp has almost no syntax
04:30:02 <xor_> There Is only one operator in lisp
04:30:16 <lament> that's not quite true, but it certainly looks that way.
04:30:22 <lament> but you could also say that about math notation:
04:30:30 <lament> "In math notation, there's only one operator, whitespace"
04:30:42 <lament> "everything else is operands"
04:31:20 <pikhq> Lisp comes damned near pre-parsed.
04:31:32 <lament> "1 + 2" -> whitespace is a very smart operator that takes 1,+ and 2 as operands, realizes that the + is an operation applicable to objects 1 and 2, and applies it
04:31:32 <xor_> In lisp you can't extend the language in the way you mean it in C
04:32:33 <xor_> You can't change the only operator, namely, calling a function
04:32:34 <pikhq> (define function_foo (bar baz qux (quuxy quuux))) Voila. You've extended the language.
04:33:04 <xor_> yes, but you can do that in C too
04:33:07 <lament> xor_: well, that's why i said "extend", not "modify" :)
04:33:22 <lament> xor_: also it's not the only operator, and it doesn't call functions.
04:33:30 <lament> other than that you're mostly right.
04:33:30 <pikhq> C makes abstraction a bitch, though.
04:33:38 <lament> xor_: (define .....) is not a function.
04:34:06 <lament> in C, the analog would be "int foo() {}"
04:34:12 <xor_> I only have a weak understanding of lisp
04:34:17 <lament> you can't create new things of that kind in C
04:34:51 <lament> say you wanted C syntax for creating anonymous functions. C doesn't come with that. And you can't add it.
04:35:05 <lament> In lisp, you could (if it didn't have it to begin with)
04:35:26 <lament> suppose lisp doesn't have a foreach operator. Then you can add one yourself.
04:35:28 <xor_> Say you wanted to add lisp syntax for, say, postfix notation
04:36:03 <lament> You would have something like (postfix (1 2 +)) evaluating to 3
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04:36:33 <lament> i think CL even has infix notation thingie
04:36:39 <xor_> How do you do that?
04:36:45 <lament> so when you have a complex arithmetic expression, you don't have to suffer using prefix
04:37:12 <lament> anyway, i don't even like lisp :)
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04:37:33 <xor_> Well what I'm saying is that when it looks like you are changing the language in lisp, you are really just changing functions
04:37:37 <xor_> which you can do in c
04:38:03 <lament> it's just that in lisp everything sort of looks similar
04:38:14 <lament> for example, it should be fairly clear that (if) is not a function
04:38:19 <lament> try implementing if as a function in C
04:38:31 <xor_> but if is a function
04:38:47 <xor_> It just so happens that you can pass blocks of code to a function in lisp
04:38:55 <rt> if isn't a function, because it doesn't evaluate all its arguments.
04:39:00 <rt> it's a "special form".
04:39:07 <lament> xor_: you can, but that's not how if works in Lisp.
04:39:40 <lament> you don't go (if a '(code for if) '(code for else))
04:39:47 <lament> you go (if a (code for if) (code for else))
04:40:03 <lament> if it were a function, both chunks of code would be immediately evaluated
04:40:39 <lament> but yeah, you could argue that you could make it a function and lisp just sucks because syntax for passing blocks of code requires an extra quote which people don't want to type.
04:40:50 <lament> In fact, in Smalltalk if is a function.
04:41:13 <xor_> if you accessed arrays in c like get(array, index), then you could abstractly redifine arrays
04:41:24 <xor_> and access your list in the same way
04:41:40 <lament> except you can't have a polymorphic get
04:41:44 <xor_> and _everything_ in lisp is access like that
04:41:54 <lament> so the _same_ get function would have to work for arrays and lists
04:42:00 <lament> which is already a bit more difficult
04:42:25 <lament> especially if you want to add more datatypes in the future that should also work with get()
04:42:44 <lament> it's just unnatural and silly and nobody does that.
04:42:55 <lament> in Lisp (or even Python), it's natural and easy
04:43:11 <pikhq> C++, Lisp, and other semisane languages make it natural to do it.
04:43:15 <xor_> but c is fast and low level
04:43:21 <xor_> So you can't have everything
04:43:35 <pikhq> (C++ has this thing called "operator overloading". Rather nice.)
04:43:39 <lament> i can think of very very few tasks i would use C for.
04:43:44 <xor_> pikhq: Extremely
04:43:58 <lament> eg., i can think of very very few tasks i would use a "fast low-level language" for.
04:44:03 <pikhq> xor_: C++ gives you this benefit, is fast, and is lowlevel. Lisp gives you this benefit and is fast. Try one of them.
04:44:09 <rt> c++ overloading isn't "rather nice". it's completely absurd.
04:44:27 <lament> python's overloading is a bit contrived
04:44:38 <lament> haskell shines as usual :)
04:44:40 <pikhq> rt: Code an app using bignums in C++ and C, and tell me that again.
04:44:45 <xor_> It's the same as c++'s ...
04:45:34 <lament> in haskell and smalltalk, there's no difference between something like 1+2 and something like add(1,2), both are just different syntax for functions.
04:45:45 <lament> any other way of doing operator overloading is less sane, imo
04:45:57 <Razor-X> If you use macros creatively, it's pretty simple to switch from postfix to prefix, and maybe even implement infix.
04:46:05 <xor_> Python is similar a believe
04:46:13 <lament> no, python is worse :(
04:46:28 <lament> in python, + is a shortcut for a function that's actually called __add__
04:46:30 <pikhq> Razor-X: Worst-case scenario, you just go and define a function "infix" to parse infix expressions.
04:46:41 <xor_> 1+2 == int.__add__(1, 2)
04:46:49 <Razor-X> pikhq: Yeah but... it's unelegant and not in the spirit of Lisp.
04:47:00 <xor_> So it's the same
04:47:11 <lament> xor_: it's not the same, because you need to know the shortcuts
04:47:13 <xor_> Just with a namespace
04:47:36 <pikhq> In C++: 1+2 == int.operator+(1, 2);
04:47:51 <xor_> def __add__(self, other):
04:48:01 <xor_> the syntax is just slightly different
04:48:08 <lament> xor_: like i said. You need to know those shortcuts.
04:48:14 <Razor-X> Well, you can use a procedure to modify the postfix notation and eval the prefixed notation.
04:48:22 <Razor-X> Which is a more roundabout way of adding new syntax.
04:49:00 <lament> xor_: in haskell, you would just go a + b = <body of your function>
04:49:29 <lament> or alternatively, add a b = <body>
04:50:52 <xor_> I think it is more weird to have odd characters in function names
04:50:57 <xor_> That's just confusing
04:51:28 <lament> i think there's nothing weird about calling a function that adds two things '+'
04:51:51 <pikhq> One must admit; operator overloading of any sort leaves you much more sane than C. ;)
04:52:26 <xor_> C with oop without operator overloading leaves you with prefix notation
04:53:00 <lament> why would you do oop in C?
04:53:08 <pikhq> lament: Ask the GTK devs.
04:53:10 <lament> it seems there're more appropriate languages
04:53:52 <pikhq> More specifically, ask whoever designed that bastard conglomeration that is Gobject.
04:54:05 <xor_> Because oop is a natural way of describing things?
04:54:26 <pikhq> xor_: And C++ is designed to make OOP natural.
04:54:53 <pikhq> An object system in C is about as bad as an object system in Brainfuck.
04:55:00 <xor_> not even close
04:55:07 <lament> xor_: yes, oop is a natural way of describing things, but why do it in C?
04:55:22 <xor_> because C is good
04:55:41 <xor_> also, if I code something in C, every other coder can understand it
04:55:55 <lament> surely not every coder.
04:56:24 <xor_> more speak C than speak (lisp|c++|python|whatever)
04:56:45 <lament> certainly questionable in the case of C++
04:56:57 <lament> even more so in the case of languages you omitted eg Java
04:57:03 <pikhq> C++ is *really* simple for a C coder to figure out.
04:57:22 <xor_> C++ adds waaaay too much complexity
04:57:40 <lament> i think i agree with xor
04:58:22 <pikhq> D is probably a better choice, sanity-wise, though. ;)
04:58:56 <xor_> anyways, I have to go
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05:09:02 <Razor-X> I just made a very unelegant hack (because I'm too lazy to lookup the syntax modification rules) to add in postfix notation to Lisp.
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05:18:47 <lament> Eidolos: go back to devnull!
05:23:55 <Razor-X> Yeah, I really love Scheme. Haskell is pretty fun too.
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06:30:56 <RodgerTheGreat> I love wikis: "LOCK is a clever acronym if you know what it stands for. (If you do, you might want to add that here.)"
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06:56:01 <GreaseMonkey> AddUselessLanguage(&Tomato,TomatoParser@,{i++;});
06:58:40 <GreaseMonkey> EatPies@(PieCount!2)={for({i!2;i=0;},{i<PieCount;},{i++},{eat(FindAvailablePie(&Pantry));});};
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08:25:45 <nooga> i'm writing a raytrcer 4 fun
08:26:14 <nooga> i'm even thinking about giving an esoteric scene description language to it
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15:53:34 <SimonRC> What's more mind-numbing than _Big Brother_ and more pointless than _Second Life_? Yes, it's _Big Brother_ set *in* _Second Life_: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/11/06/bb_second_life/
15:58:05 <RodgerTheGreat> they should make a reality show about programmers. "Eight coders. 30 days. One product. 90 cases of mountain dew. Who will survive?"
15:58:42 <Asztal> first contestant: Paula Bean
15:59:05 <SimonRC> Now, instead of watching people sit around doing nothing useful all day, you can watch people's online avatars sit around doing nothing useful all day!
16:03:52 <RodgerTheGreat> and quietly seethe that they're getting paid while you get nothing for a similar amount of work.
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17:17:04 <Sgeo> You _had_ to do that in channel?
17:17:26 <SimonRC> Dear god when will it end?
17:17:32 <Sgeo> SimonRC, after 100?
17:17:58 <Sgeo> CakeProphet, how?
17:18:11 <CakeProphet> By not-copying-and-pasting-the-entire-results.
17:18:52 <CakeProphet> I wonder why there was a consistency for iterations to happen within 0.0 seconds of each other.
17:19:57 * CakeProphet honestly doesn't understand why people get pissed by floods like that.
17:20:01 <jix_> uhhm doing the output in the loop is bad
17:20:09 <jix_> because then speed will depend on your terminal etc...
17:20:39 <CakeProphet> but then all speeds will depend on my terminal... thus it'll remain consistent through iterations.
17:21:12 <jix_> buffering of streams can do odd things on timing
17:21:18 <jix_> an hell how slow is that 0.016?
17:21:44 <xor_> CakeProphet: What's your point?
17:21:49 <jix_> the worst thing i can get (with ruby don't know python) is 0.000184 and python is said to be faster
17:22:07 <jix_> and that was 3 out of 100 that arn't like 4.8e-05
17:22:47 <jix_> the funny thing is when i remove the output thing i don't get 0.000xxx at all
17:24:06 <CakeProphet> When I used a list method for doing it... by appending them to a list in the iteration... it didn't add anything to the list.
17:24:20 <jix_> then your code is wrong
17:24:59 <jix_> i don't know python...
17:25:06 <jix_> is append destructive?
17:25:23 <CakeProphet> It just adds the given value to the end of the list.
17:25:27 <jix_> does it modify timelist or does it create a new list
17:25:56 <jix_> that would mean it's destructive but xor_ said it isn't
17:26:04 <jix_> CakeProphet: yeah but that doesn't make all methods destructive
17:26:19 <jix_> in ruby they are too but they have destructive and nondestructive methods
17:26:31 <xor_> Python is great
17:27:08 <jix_> CakeProphet: yeah but in the one example timelist still remains timelist (eg EMPTY) and a new list with the one element gets created and thrown away because you ignore the return value
17:27:18 <jix_> and in the other way the timelist object itself gets modified
17:28:04 <jix_> so it's destructive
17:28:05 <CakeProphet> you don't need to reference the method call.
17:28:18 <jix_> i don't need to what?
17:28:30 <CakeProphet> You don't have to do timelist = timelist.append(1)
17:28:38 <jix_> yeah because it's destructive
17:28:43 <jix_> you would have to do that if it wouldn't be
17:29:14 <CakeProphet> So... I'm wondering why the code isn't working.
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18:08:04 <CakeProphet> [0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0,...
18:08:05 <CakeProphet> ...0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0]
18:08:14 <CakeProphet> That's the results without output printing.
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18:11:47 <xor_> x=[1];x.append(x)
18:15:55 <xor_> haskell is odd
18:19:02 <lament> it's just very pretty :)
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22:26:24 <xor_> lament: I've found that it's hard to code anything that doesn't have a simple mathematical translation in haskell
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22:29:20 * Sgeo coded a disproof of certain conceptions of God in Prolog
22:34:22 <nooga> there is a lack of WAM based esolang
22:34:30 <nooga> oh no, there is one.... Prolog
22:58:18 <nooga> Way too Advanced Mess
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00:13:57 <Razor-X> It's not that hard. I coded an IRC bot from scratch in Haskell.
00:14:21 <Razor-X> xor_: A few minutes after you left yesterday, I made a hackish function to evaluate things in postfix fashion in Lisp.
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00:14:31 <Razor-X> But I was too lazy to look up the (syntax-rules) way, so it's hackish.
00:15:09 <Razor-X> For clarification: is (= (/ 3 4 5) (postfix '(3 4 5 /))) #t?
00:15:21 <Razor-X> Or would it be (postfix '(5 4 3 /)) ?
00:16:25 <lament> Razor-X: but that's a function, not a special form, so it's the same as in any other language.
00:16:58 <Razor-X> Well, I don't really use it as a procedure only. I just reverse the arguments and re-feed it to eval.
00:17:05 <Razor-X> But a special form would be the correct way.
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00:39:18 <Razor-X> Sorry for the delay, I was eating.
00:41:50 <Razor-X> http://paste.lisp.org/display/29468
00:44:15 <xor_> what is set! ?
00:44:56 <Razor-X> It's an imperative operator.
00:45:20 <Razor-X> (define blah '(3)) (set! blah '(4 5)) blah --> (4 5)
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04:08:28 <Razor-X> Life itself is just like a programming language, with a set of operations, and a specific form of machine it operates on.
04:15:58 <calamari> there is a turing machine (or was it a utm?) implemented in the game of Life
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08:38:59 <^_`> gonna go, bye
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20:54:16 * CakeProphet starting creating a brainfuck interpreter in Microsoft Excel... because his typing class is soooooooo boring.
20:55:00 <CakeProphet> I'm pretty sure you could create a finite-program-size version of Brainfuck in Microsoft Excel using formulas.
20:57:58 <xor_> How would you do that?
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21:24:11 <CakeProphet> B1 through Bxxx becomes an iteration overthe contents of A1
21:24:43 <CakeProphet> B2 (and down) is the if check for pointer location, using the last pointer location as an input value...
21:25:32 <CakeProphet> and that's basically what I've got so far.
21:26:47 <xor_> I'm no whiz at excel equations
21:27:08 <CakeProphet> would return a single character from the source in A1... so you just fill that formula down about 100-something times... and you've got an iteration over the contents of A1
21:28:12 <CakeProphet> and then... on the adjacent cells for each iteration you do parsing... using the if() function... with the return value for that cell being dependent on the instruction given.
21:28:28 <CakeProphet> but will always return the curren array position you're working in.
21:28:43 <CakeProphet> Each row would basically represent a state of the program.
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23:57:08 <Razor-X> You could, but you can implement BF in a bunch of scripting applications.
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08:07:33 <Razor-X> !bf ++++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>.
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11:33:57 <ihope_> There's TCP/IP, then...
11:34:11 <ihope_> Can I have TCP/TCP/IP?
11:53:47 <lindi-> ihope_: depends on what you mean
13:32:24 <ihope_> Can I put TCP on top of TCP/IP?
14:04:58 <SimonRC> I would have thought it is called tunneling
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22:13:53 <SimonRC> http://de.fishki.net/picst/windows_49.jpg
22:13:57 * SimonRC considers getting figlet out to express the size, but decides against it.
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22:48:52 <Asztal> you'd think they'd have big text as well.
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15:34:43 * SimonRC decides to ruin your productivity too:
15:34:48 <SimonRC> http://www.jenovachen.com/flowingames/implementfig.htm
15:37:17 <lindi-> SimonRC: how should i build that?
15:51:58 <SimonRC> I'l explaina in a few minutes
15:54:53 <lindi-> SimonRC: seems to be proprietary anyway so i don't bother :/
15:54:55 <Razor-X> So, can the committee meet tomorrow to judge?
15:58:43 <SimonRC> http://intihuatani.usc.edu/cloud/flowing/
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19:14:51 * SimonRC re-promotes: http://intihuatani.usc.edu/cloud/flowing/
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20:59:05 <xor> an HP49G has a forth-like language built in
20:59:31 * xor begins to doubt his choice on a TI-89
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21:12:15 <xor> grr I want an hp59g
21:17:50 <xor> Is that one of the ones with a 4 deep stack?
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21:46:10 <Razor-X> xor: Yeah, if I had the choice, I would've used an HP in the beginning.
21:46:44 <Razor-X> But my math teacher last year demanded HPs, and this year our math teacher does most of the examples on the TI (not that I couldn't read the manual push-comes-to-shove this year).
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21:49:15 <Razor-X> xor: http://www.quartus.net/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/ColorForth
21:49:22 <Razor-X> That's some real potential fun.
21:53:45 <pgimeno> http://www.colorforth.com/ide.html
21:53:55 <Razor-X> pikhq has the right of it.
21:54:00 <Razor-X> Compare Malbolge and Forth.
21:54:09 <Razor-X> I'd safely say Malbolge is ``pretty esoteric''.
21:55:55 <pgimeno> compare ORK and forth, for that matter :)
21:56:19 <Razor-X> Forth does, in some instances, sound like English.
21:56:56 <Razor-X> : bf-ptr-inc ( bfptr -- bfptr ) dup bf-tape-size @ = if bf-tape-grow 1+ else 1+ then ;
21:57:02 <Razor-X> That's one of my most English words.
21:58:01 <Razor-X> Although if you expand all the words to their English ``pronunciations'', it is pretty much English.
21:59:14 <pikhq> English. . . With a stack.
21:59:24 <Razor-X> pikhq: More logical than English already is ;)
21:59:51 <pikhq> I've recently been doing some improvements on BFM. . .
21:59:57 * xor loves his ti-89
22:00:01 <pikhq> The new BFM "Hello, World" program:
22:00:09 <pikhq> string foo "Hello, world!\n" 1
22:00:48 <Razor-X> I've put Quartus Forth on my Palm, and it's fun :)
22:00:54 <Razor-X> I should write a BF interpreter.
22:01:08 <Razor-X> ... Or just use the one I already wrote ....
22:01:24 <Razor-X> pikhq: Oooh. Strings, huh?
22:03:19 <jix> here like no one uses HPs...
22:03:20 <pikhq> C-style strings, in essence. . . Cheap, simple, and effective.
22:03:27 <jix> only casio and TIs
22:03:37 <Razor-X> TI only in my school, pretty much.
22:03:42 <jix> i meant here in the germany schools
22:03:48 <jix> (that i know of)
22:03:58 <Razor-X> It's very school-dependant.
22:03:58 <pikhq> My HS calc teacher hates TIs. . .
22:04:03 <Razor-X> In California, it's almost all TIs.
22:04:11 <Razor-X> (Probably because we're close to Texas.)
22:04:19 <pikhq> So, he's got a bunch of HPs that he loans out every year.
22:04:19 <jix> Razor-X: here it's very teacher dependet
22:04:36 <jix> i think ti's are pretty nice
22:04:36 <pikhq> The rest of the district uses TIs. . .
22:04:46 <pikhq> I'm glad that my teacher likes RPN. :)
22:04:57 <jix> you can do that on some TIs too
22:05:09 <xor> I hate school
22:05:11 <jix> i sometimes use rpn to enter thingst that i would mess up when i'd use a lot of ( and )
22:05:13 <Razor-X> I think I'll spend a portion of my saved up lunch money to trade in my TI for an HP when I graduate.
22:05:15 <xor> http://www.paxm.org/symbulator/download/rpn.html
22:05:17 <pikhq> jix: Yeah, but it's native for HPs.
22:05:30 <xor> Razor-X: I think I might get one
22:05:33 <Razor-X> TI-89 is pretty nice, though.
22:05:35 <jix> pikhq: but for the most things i enter i prefer the normal notation
22:05:49 <xor> I can't use a ti-83
22:05:52 <jix> pikhq: and i get all features of the CAS from within the rpn thing so it's like native
22:05:57 <jix> xor: yeah that's the thing i use
22:05:58 <xor> They are just too terrible
22:06:14 <Razor-X> My dad complained to the principal for having to buy me a graphing calculator.
22:06:17 <xor> jix: What is?
22:06:23 <jix> xor: that rpn thing
22:06:33 <Razor-X> He argued that he used a slide rule until his 3rd year of college where he failed a class and bought his first calculator to compete.
22:06:48 <xor> jix: Does it work good?
22:06:48 <Razor-X> So, a TI-83 was the best I was going to get out of him.
22:06:54 <jix> xor: it does
22:07:02 <Razor-X> Before that, I used a TI-22X (more-than-a-decade discontinued)
22:07:15 <Razor-X> Was my dad's first calculator out of college.
22:07:17 <pikhq> Razor-X: I recommend the slide rule.
22:07:28 <Razor-X> pikhq: I've become pretty quick with it, actually.
22:07:45 <jix> when i'm not allowed to use the ti-98 (like programmable and or graphic disallowed) i use a ti-30-eco-rs or something
22:08:02 <xor> slide rulesrock
22:08:09 <xor> I love my slide rule
22:08:10 <Razor-X> I still have the TI-22X. I really loved that calculator.
22:08:10 <jix> i like it... very simple but does what i want
22:08:11 <pikhq> jix: I've been using RPN for a few years (yay, dc!). . . The fact that my graphing calculator now does RPN makes me very, very happy.
22:08:19 * pikhq needs to get a slide rule sometime
22:08:22 <Razor-X> I did my first SAT I with it, and it was a fine calculator.
22:08:23 <xor> pikhq: What calc?
22:08:53 <xor> pikhq: do you like it?
22:08:53 <Razor-X> (Although back when I took the SAT I, it wasn't designed like a marathon test.)
22:09:12 <pikhq> xor: Except for a buggy keypad, it's rather nice.
22:09:27 <pikhq> (the current model, the HP-50G, has that issue fixed)
22:09:40 <jix> this one http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/TI-30_eco_RS.jpg << the batteries are like never going to be empty
22:10:38 <jix> and as soon as there is enough light to be able to recognize the digits on the display it's enough for it to get enough power throught the solar thing
22:10:51 <Razor-X> Oh. We have one of those too.
22:11:27 <Razor-X> xor: Did you check out colorForth?
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22:12:16 * pikhq goes to fix his _string and @ procs to not need a location argument
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22:25:20 <xor> Razor-X: I am now
22:27:14 <xor> Don't see the point
22:27:34 <Razor-X> How can you not appreciate that?!
22:29:16 <xor> on the metal?
22:29:34 <Razor-X> Pseudonym for total control.
22:30:19 <Razor-X> Imagine turning 486 machines into embedded systems for cheap.
22:30:44 <xor> rather use a more refined os
22:31:03 <Razor-X> I wouldn't call this an OS even, per-say.
22:32:02 * pikhq has made Brainfuck nicer still with BFM.
22:32:40 <pikhq> With 3 lines, one can have "Hello, World!" with BFM. :)
22:32:50 * pikhq is going to clean some stuff and make the new tarball
22:33:42 <Razor-X> colorForth is just enough ASM to simulate a flat memory model for a Forth interpreter/kernel.
22:34:01 <Razor-X> Which is why there's code for the floppy driver and the hard-disk driver and all.
22:35:18 <Razor-X> A microkernel I guess the term would be.
22:36:22 <Razor-X> And I'll bet someone can write a QWERTY driver for the Dvorak uninitiated.
22:37:07 <pikhq> Sorry; that's 4 lines.
22:37:23 <pikhq> Need to source both ^outs.bfm and ^stdcons.bfm
22:38:30 <xor> With BF with strings, it's >"Hello, World!"[<]>[.>]
22:39:36 <pikhq> source ^stdcons.bfm
22:39:53 <pikhq> string hello! "Hello, World!\n"
22:40:30 <pikhq> But I've got a full macro system.
22:40:35 <pikhq> And *it works*. ;)
22:41:17 <pikhq> (it could easily compile to BF with strings: >"Hello, World!\n"[<]>[>.])
22:45:06 <pikhq> 'Sides; my solution works anywhere where there are 8-bit wrapping cells (could work *anywhere* if I bother allowing for conditional compilation based upon cell size and wrapping/non).
22:47:01 <xor> It be easy to write a strings bf -> bf compiler
22:49:04 <pikhq> 'Bout as easy as it was for me to add the string command to BFM.
22:55:11 <xor> grr I can't get this rpn proggy to work in tiemu
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23:54:43 <xor> http://www.paxm.org/symbulator/download/rpn.html screwed my calculator
00:16:03 <xor> well, TI-89Ti
00:16:22 <Razor-X> I'm sort of bemused by the fact that mainstream CS has the exact opposite sentiment of this channel.
00:16:41 <xor> What is the sentiment of this channel?
00:16:55 <Razor-X> Experiment with new ideas, have fun coding.
00:17:17 <xor> What's the sentiment of mainstream CS?
00:17:27 <Razor-X> Learn OOP. Program in Java.
00:17:47 <Razor-X> I wonder what the OS programmers of tomorrow will be like, if there are any.
00:18:42 <Razor-X> Even the future of embedded programming.
00:20:12 <Razor-X> Moreover, I think CS will become a field of uptight I'm-doing-it-for-the-money programmers, which makes me think that innovation will slow to a crawl.
00:22:01 <pikhq> Razor-X: That's because we're hackers, not computer scientists.
00:22:38 <Razor-X> pikhq: But hackers are what will, IMO eventually, decide whether the field will die into interlocked obscurity for a bunch of years, or actually continue to innovate.
00:23:02 <pikhq> Razor-X: Hackers, by definition, will continue to innovate.
00:23:15 <Razor-X> Yeah, but I think the hacker pool will decrease over time.
00:23:33 <pikhq> The free software community begs to differ.
00:23:53 <Razor-X> Hah. A vast majority of them aren't hackers.
00:24:02 <Razor-X> I mean the new recent explosion.
00:24:34 <Razor-X> Linux toiled in obscurity when it was hacker haven. Now it's being mainstreamed. I have no problem with that but, I'm foreseeing a temporary hacker-death.
00:25:36 <Razor-X> At some subconscious point, I think hacking comes from seeing the innards of something and realizing that normal human beings created it. I mean, think about it. No-one really tries to hack telephone lines anymore.
00:26:05 <Razor-X> Less and less of the innards are showing each and every day, and it's not something we're fixing, but creating tighter scaffoldings over lower componenents.
00:26:14 <xor> The days of phreaking sounded fun
00:26:22 <xor> I wish I was around back then
00:27:20 <Razor-X> Although the PC is something I'd shudder to live without.
00:28:47 <pikhq> Razor-X: The free software community is something that works to allow the existence of hackers, in essence.
00:29:10 <pikhq> s/community/movement/
00:29:31 <pikhq> It keeps the innards shown to all of the world.
00:29:54 <xor> Most people just want free software so they don't have to pay
00:30:42 <pikhq> xor: Thus why I refer to the movement.
00:31:03 <pikhq> The free software *movement* is driven by a wish for freedom, not merely low price.
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00:54:29 <Razor-X> Well, it's not always just free software (but I admit, this is where it excels).
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00:55:43 <Razor-X> The demand for non-implementation-level software is just dying because, we're using monoliths, and no-one's encouraging people to rewrite things like driver code.
00:56:02 <Razor-X> Although in accordance with the recent Linux explosion, Windows (I think) has been having a relative low-level explosion.
00:56:51 <pikhq> Near as I can tell, hackerdom won't actually die. It may suffer from a temporary die-off, but it has this tendency to come back, stronger than ever.
00:57:07 <Razor-X> I fear the temporary die-off.
00:57:36 <pikhq> It'll be the *second* one Stallman
00:57:44 <pikhq> 's lived through, though. ;)
00:57:58 <Razor-X> Computers are becoming more and more entrenched. It's the wrong time for hackerdom to die.
00:58:38 <Razor-X> No offense to Stallman's generation but, a dying late-'70s hackerdom would only affect a few critical things.
00:58:42 <pikhq> On the bright side, hackerdom will, no doubt, take down those who are in it for money alone down with it.
01:00:25 <Razor-X> Likewise, I think the hackerdom needs to produce more documentation and learning material.
01:00:54 <pikhq> Without documentation & learning material, we lose opportunities for new blood. . . Surely, this is a bad thing.
01:01:18 <pikhq> The fight for source code itself, of course, must continue. . . But without documentation, what the hell are we going to do with the code?
01:01:40 <Razor-X> Code is useful, but only to the point to that you can follow the thought process of the writers.
01:02:08 <pikhq> Which is damned difficult in esolangs, at least. :p
01:03:36 <Razor-X> My own approach to beginning programming documentation is intuitive, because I also think that anything but mainstream coding has too much by way of CS-``sophisticated'' literature.
01:06:02 <Razor-X> With so many abstractions, it's hard to remember that programming is a gigantic bunch of 0's and 1's.
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01:08:02 * pikhq feels that he's made the abstractions in BFM a bit more. . . Sane.
01:09:11 * pikhq wonders why he's talking about that
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02:15:33 <xor> pikhq: Becuase it's interesting?
02:15:47 <pikhq> xor: Sounds 'bout right.
02:16:07 <pikhq> Anyways. . . In BFM, declaring the memory location of a variable is optional now.
02:16:35 <pikhq> Same applies to strings.
02:16:57 <pikhq> In fact, with the new string support, declaring the memory location of a variable is very, very unwise.
02:17:30 <xor> Shame you wrote it in tcl ;)
02:17:48 <pikhq> But that's the best part!
02:18:55 * xor came up with something a while ago that you guys would apreciate
02:18:58 <pikhq> Writing in Tcl gives me a one-line parser!
02:19:14 <xor> A grammar for english that is lisp-like
02:19:49 <xor> (verb args)
02:19:54 <xor> (modifer args)
02:20:13 <pikhq> That'd make some AI researchers very happy. ;)
02:20:21 <xor> (rocks it)
02:23:59 <xor> (? (what (think you (about it)))
02:24:42 <pikhq> (, (no (rocks it))) (much (very (rocks it))))
02:25:06 <xor> Asztal: The subject of a verb shouldn't be implied
02:26:13 <xor> actually, nevermind, I misunderstood
02:28:42 <xor> (think i (is cool it))
02:29:18 <pikhq> (think I (= cool it)), if you want to be more Lispy. :p
02:29:53 <pikhq> One can then use = in math, sentences, etc.
02:30:38 <xor> (=) is numeric equality though
02:30:44 <xor> wouldn't it be (eq) ?
02:32:06 <pikhq> Not if we use an untyped Lisp, and have numbers represented as lists (IIRC, this is how the original paper had Lisp set up).
02:39:47 <xor> (not (matter it))
02:42:15 <xor> (laugh you)
02:44:29 <xor> (read I (about lisp))
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02:45:45 <pikhq> (no (read xor (about lisp)))
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02:47:27 <pikhq> Just wanting to be contrary.
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02:53:03 <xor> I don't like how common lisp has different namespaces for variables and functions
03:01:23 <pikhq> I think I'd prefer different namespaces for libraries & other forms of linguistic extensions. . .
03:03:21 <xor> I like how python does it
03:05:09 <xor> Functions and variables are the same, and libraries (modules) are accessed like modulename.funcname
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03:06:49 <pikhq> Thus, libraries are sequestered into seperate namespaces. . .
03:07:21 <pikhq> In Tcl, while not required, this is how libraries are typically set up.
03:08:14 <pikhq> (a small handful of libraries (Tk and Expect come to mind) clutter up the global namespace, but that's because they're rather old libraries, from before Tcl had namespaces, and so namespaces aren't used so old code still works)
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03:09:11 <pikhq> And it'd be accessed "::modulename::procname".
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03:09:55 <xor> GregorR-L-V-T-M
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03:12:15 <pikhq> string foo "BFM now has C-style string support. Joy unto the world."
03:12:37 <ihope> Now all we need is !bfm_txtgen.
03:12:51 <xor> That one is going to be hard...
03:13:17 <pikhq> Make it an Egobot daemon or something. ;)
03:14:50 <pikhq> Um. . . What did you do?!?
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03:21:41 <xor> grr I want rpn on my calculator
03:21:53 <ihope> I want Haskell on mine.
03:22:15 <xor> WHat calculator?
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04:11:51 <xor> haskulator is better
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16:14:37 * SimonRC wonders why all american schoolkids have programmable/graphical/RPN calculators. I don't think many people at my school had anything like that.
16:21:37 <CakeProphet> SimonRC, Because of new-fangled technology
16:24:58 <SimonRC> Upon reading the "death of hacking" conversation above, I suddenly had a vision of the Second Coming Of Stallmann, like a hairier version of Jesus.
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17:11:56 <Razor-X> That would be interesting :P
17:12:34 <Razor-X> The top 4 out of 5 most popular projects on SourceForge are P2P related projects. How nice.
17:35:19 <SimonRC> I have been fiddling with some numbers and find that traditional piano tuning is based on the equality: 531441 == 524288
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19:18:17 <pikhq> Bring back EgoBot.
19:22:34 <lament> SimonRC: "traditional"?
19:26:14 <SimonRC> the one where a fifth is a 3/2 ratio
19:26:36 <SimonRC> GregorR: What were you doing with the DVDs?
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19:58:54 <xor> SimonRC: At my school we are required to buy a TI-83 or TI-84
20:01:01 <xor> It is very TI centric
20:05:38 <xor> High school
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20:31:40 <GregorR> SimonRC: What I'm doing with the DVDs is clearing up my hard disk :P
20:42:58 <lament> SimonRC: i don't think that has ever been a traditional piano tuning
20:45:14 <lindi-> xor: how can they require you to buy anything in the first place?
20:58:18 <xor> lindi-: They just do
20:59:06 <lindi-> xor: what happens if you don't?
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21:19:59 <SimonRC> lindi-: I don't think it is any worse than requiring schoolchildren to wear uniforms.
21:24:00 <lindi-> SimonRC: but many manufactures can probably produce those uniforms
21:34:09 <xor> lindi-: Not sure what they do if you don't
21:34:38 <lindi-> xor: i used hp-71 in high school but most used ti-86
21:35:35 <xor> I never bought a ti-83, but I guess my calculator is similar enough. I can't use it on exams though.
21:38:21 <xor> The teacher usually lets me borrow a crappy ti-83 for tests
21:42:45 <xor> I love my ti-89
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21:59:51 <lament> i was somewhat screwed on the provinical math exam in high school because i didn't have a ti-83
21:59:57 <lament> and entire big questions relied on having it
22:00:28 <lament> but i passed the exam, so the calculator clearly isn't all _that_ necessary
22:00:39 <xor> Instructions in my math and physics class go "push button 1, then button 2..."
22:01:17 <lament> you're in high school?
22:02:01 <lament> well, just ignore it then
22:02:12 <lament> it's high school, who cares.
22:10:12 <xor> My physics class is more of a "learn to use your ti-83" class
22:12:10 <ivan`> AP Physics assumed you can do trig and algebra in your sleep and that you could calculator-solve in record time
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01:14:39 <Razor-X> Our AP Physics teacher teaches everything but Physics.
01:14:51 <Razor-X> Once he spent 2 hours lecturing about fats and carbohydrates.
01:14:53 <GregorR> I had a similar experience.
01:15:16 <Razor-X> A friend of mine the other day got him to spend 1 hour on the cleanup procedures of liquid mercury.
01:15:21 <GregorR> Incidentally, AP sucks, it screwed me into taking more advanced (and degree-unrelated) science in college than I would have had to otherwise.
01:15:32 <Razor-X> And he is convinced that he has to make faulty real-life analogies to Physics concepts.
01:16:24 <Razor-X> His worst so far was comparing formulas with that researcher that discovered that there are only 5 social links between you and some famous person.
01:17:07 <Razor-X> Also, he seems convinced that kids of the US can't handle SI units.
01:17:33 <Razor-X> AP Chemistry gave me a good handle on SI units, so he just sounds like an idiot to me.
01:21:20 <Razor-X> One of his best examples of stupidity ``You can use this to find a relationship of the viscosity in each day. Now use Calculus, take it to its limit. You can use Calculus to find the viscosity on the 3rd day, 7th hour, 6th minute''. Most of us try our hardest not to laugh our heads off at him because he hasn't realized that you can use fractional days.
01:22:34 <xor> You know what's cool?
01:22:37 <xor> emacs calc
01:22:55 <xor> I just found out about it
01:23:02 <Razor-X> I've decided to program something that allows you to play MIDI files on the Palm.
01:23:37 <Razor-X> With only one instrument, though.
01:26:44 <xor> How does your palm output sound?
01:27:00 <Razor-X> Beeps, but the beeps can be for different durations at different frequencies.
01:32:05 <xor> calc is awsome
01:36:01 <lament> Razor-X: converting units is one of the things he's supposed to teach, though.
01:36:08 <lament> Razor-X: giving you fractional days would be too easy.
01:38:51 * xor likes the "a %" command in calc
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01:52:03 <Razor-X> lament: But he doesen't know Calculus.
01:52:15 <Razor-X> Or rather, he's forgotten.
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02:08:04 <lament> Razor-X: perhaps i don't understand the situation
02:08:17 <lament> Razor-X: i don't see how calculus is applicable
02:10:32 <Razor-X> Of course, he thinks it does.
02:11:07 <lament> did you have a formula for viscosity, or experimental data with values for each day?
02:11:28 <Razor-X> He was talking about making a regression, but I wonder if he remembers any statistics at all.
02:11:45 <lament> oh, well, if it's experimental data, certainly you can apply calculus to it.
02:13:00 <Razor-X> You have a bunch of data and try to apply an equation to it that will encompass the data, and hopefully hint at future trends.
02:13:06 <lament> i'd imagine any reasonable uncertainty on that viscosity would render the result completely useless...
02:13:38 <Razor-X> Advice when regarding my Physics teacher's advice:
02:13:44 <Razor-X> Don't devote too many brain cycles.
02:14:28 <lament> i suppose you can assume the function is reasonably smooth...
02:14:45 <lament> but who knows, with daily changes in temperature, moisture and whatnot
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02:17:17 <Razor-X> Like I said: The key is not much thought.
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15:26:37 <SimonRC> one of the few good uses for csh
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18:57:53 <xor> !bf_textgen heh
18:58:09 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
18:58:11 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
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18:58:18 <xor> !bf_txtgen heh
18:58:49 <EgoBot> 42 ++++++++[>+++++++++++++>>><<<<-]>.---.+++. [67]
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19:03:34 <xor> what's the point of >>><<< ?
19:03:58 <oerjan> that txtgen is not very smart
19:04:04 <pgimeno> xor, it's a genetic algorithm, that part is not optimized out automatically
19:04:47 <RodgerTheGreat> then it sounds like running it through a simple filter before displaying it's results would enhance the program.
19:05:01 <EgoBot> 42 +++++++++++++[>++++++++>>><<<<-]>.---.+++. [50]
19:06:14 <xor> !bf_txtgen heh
19:06:45 <EgoBot> 42 +++++++++++++[>++++++++>>><<<<-]>.---.+++. [24]
19:07:28 <xor> what is the [24] ?
19:07:47 <pgimeno> I think it's the number of iterations or something
19:08:03 <pgimeno> but I'm wondering why it always produces >>><<<
19:08:12 <xor> !bf_txtgen ehh
19:08:41 <EgoBot> 39 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>>><<<<-]>+.+++.. [51]
19:09:00 <xor> !bf_txtgen f
19:09:25 <EgoBot> 35 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>>><<<<-]>++. [111]
19:09:28 <oerjan> i think possibly the inner loop generates an array of constants, which always has the same length even if only one is used.
19:09:33 <xor> We could, you know, look at the source
19:09:45 <oerjan> !bf_txtgen Argle bargle, glop glyf
19:12:00 <pgimeno> I think it's java (not 2K, fortunately)
19:12:07 <EgoBot> 206 +++++++++++++[>+++++>++++++++>+++++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>.>>---.<-.>>++++.<<--.<---------------------------------.>---.-.>.-----------.+++++.<++++.<++++++++++++.------------.>++.>.+++.+.<<.>.>>.<+++++++++.<-. [435]
19:12:41 <EgoBot> 246 ++++++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>-.>>>++++.<<+++.>-.--.<<++++.>++++.---------------.-------.<+++++++++++++++.>>>.<-.+++.-.<++++++.--.<--.>>>.<<.<++++++.>----.>-.<+++++++++++++++.>-.-------.>.<<+++.>.<<----------.>+.>.<<.>>--.++. [493]
19:12:41 <xor> pgimeno: No, it's written in C
19:12:47 <RodgerTheGreat> the algorithm seems to be designed for longer sentences.
19:14:58 <xor> the algorithm is slooooow
19:16:10 <xor> anyone have to url for the source?
19:17:42 <oerjan> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/brainfuck/util/textgen.java
19:17:47 <xor> http://esolangs.org/files/egobot/egobot-0.12.tar.bz2
19:18:29 <xor> oops, it is java
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05:13:07 <GregorR-L> Razor-X: calamari IIRC. And it's textgen.java IIRC.
05:25:20 <RodgerTheGreat> I could take a crack at adding a post-optimizer for it.
05:26:13 <RodgerTheGreat> I made a simple one for a BF IDE I built for myself a while ago.
05:28:48 <Razor-X> I'm trying to get my Palm to send arbitrary data now.
05:28:56 <Razor-X> Hey, maybe I can even get the stupid thing to dump its ROM.
05:29:35 <Razor-X> Since it refuses to with other conventional utilities.
05:31:23 <RodgerTheGreat> what are you using to send things over the serial port?
05:31:37 <Razor-X> Good 'ol PalmOS functions.
05:31:51 <Razor-X> I've got Quartus Forth and LispMe on it.
05:32:18 <RodgerTheGreat> if you aren't afraid to touch some BASIC, I have a really easy way that you could do a ROM dump, assuming you have a serial hotsync cradle.
05:32:32 <Razor-X> See, that's the problem. It's not serial.
05:32:57 <Razor-X> What BASIC are you using, by the way?
05:33:35 <Razor-X> What I'm trying to get it do is to initially mimic the hotsync transfer (I have some hotsync request dumps), and after the kernel grabs onto the device, I'll begin sending arbitrary data.
05:33:41 <RodgerTheGreat> I was going to recommend Cbaspad- it's pretty old, but it supports PEEK, POKE, and CALL, and you can perform serial communications.
05:34:45 <RodgerTheGreat> and the manual: http://www.hotpaw.com/rhn/files/CBASPAD.TXT
05:35:22 <RodgerTheGreat> if you decide to do anything with cbaspad, I'd be glad- I'm a wizard with it. :D
05:35:27 <Razor-X> Where does the ROM live, by the way?
05:36:22 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. the only part of the palmOS memory map that I can remember is that the top 32k of ram are protected from writes without a system call...
05:38:17 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. a google search reveals this: http://assets.devx.com/articlefigs/6719.gif
05:47:29 <RodgerTheGreat> doesn't exactly have what we need, but this looks like some really useful info if you're looking at writing an OS: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~davidwilliams/ddl_home.htm
05:48:29 <Razor-X> Right now I'm just gonna fiddle with an httpd or a tftpd.
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05:48:35 <Razor-X> Maybe even just an IRC client.
05:55:44 <GregorR-L> RawIRC is the only IRC client you'll ever need.
06:13:49 <Razor-X> Hmmm. Somewhere my code is causing a fatal exception.
06:14:11 <Razor-X> Weird. I just compile in words, I haven't done anything special.
06:15:05 <GregorR> Arrogant: Can't idle AFK with telnet :)
06:15:25 <Arrogant> Pay a homeless man to respond to pings
06:16:15 <calamari> fluxbox runs fine on this p166
06:17:08 <calamari> wish there was a browser faster than mozilla but that still rendered pages decently.. links is fast, but it really leaves a lot to be desired
06:27:24 <Razor-X> Well, that's what I get for writing to address 3.
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16:26:32 * Asztal needs to buy a monitor which displays red
16:28:49 <nooga> i'd like green with that cool phosphoric sustain
16:30:55 <RodgerTheGreat> according to this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VT220), VT220 terminals came in white, green, and amber. I could've sworn red was a standard color as well.
16:34:58 <GregorR-L> Nah, it turned red after you used a white one to kill some--- I mean, I've never heard of that.
16:35:52 <nooga> i've spotted a guy from Poland @ our wiki :>
16:37:18 <nooga> i meant: a guy who made an esolang and lives relatively near to me ;p
16:38:09 <Asztal> I was thinking more like http://www.microdirect.co.uk/Productinfo.aspx?ProductID=14836
16:40:45 <nooga> i will make a display for my PC from old b&w TV ;p
16:41:38 <nooga> i've tried to emulate old tv signal like it's made in those neat Xscreensavers
16:41:47 <RodgerTheGreat> you can create a 3-monitor setup by using R,G, and B channels to each represent a grayscale image.
16:42:45 <xor> doododododod
16:42:48 <RodgerTheGreat> I think I saw a link to how to do it on http://www.hackaday.com/ a while back- pore over the archives and see what you can find.
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17:31:32 <SimonRC> ah, the wonders of my university's email system: http://www.dur.ac.uk/s.r.clarkstone/bouncy.eml
17:32:03 <SimonRC> (I sent a message to two people without bothering to put the default domain part on their addresses.)
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23:21:34 * SimonRC prepends '** ' to the beginning of his $PS1, and it is much easier to spot now.
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01:03:55 <Razor-X> 30 days, and ALSA on the kernel decided to act stupid.
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01:25:51 <xor> 2.6.15-1-486
01:26:50 <Razor-X> You don't compile your own kernels?
01:27:46 <xor> I have no desire to hack on the linux kernel
01:28:17 <Razor-X> (If you compile it by hand.)
01:28:30 <Razor-X> With UML, it's a snap to test out new kernel stuff.
01:28:50 <xor> linux is a mess
01:33:51 <xor> OpenBSD server.bsmntbombdood.mooo.com 3.9 GENERIC#617 i386
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14:53:40 <SimonRC> http://thedailywtf.com/forums/thread/101329.aspx
14:54:21 <SimonRC> That is mandatory reading, I think.
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18:14:09 <SimonRC> USENET ettiquette: If posting a 14-part binary, be sure to put an X-No-Archive header on part 11.
18:17:49 <GregorR-L> You can infer it from the md5sum! :)
18:19:29 <xor> I don't get it
18:21:59 <SimonRC> xor: to annoy people who want to get the file from Usenet archives.
18:22:03 <SimonRC> They will steadily go through the archives, finding all the parts, except part 11 will be nowhere to be found!
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23:28:27 <ihope_> Dirac notation, everybody!
23:32:21 <lament> which makes it on-topic.
23:51:47 <ihope_> Dirac notation, la la la la!
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02:53:27 <CakeProphet> but... C++ is really... weird... and doesn't make a lot of... sense.
02:53:45 <xor> Just code in bf
02:53:50 * CakeProphet wants to feel all warm and comfy in his Python interpreter.
02:53:58 <xor> I like python
02:54:12 <CakeProphet> C++ scares me with its weirdness and seeming over-elaborate and very specific mumbo-jumbo.
02:57:20 <Asztal> there's a lot of rules that you will, in practice, almost never need to know (such as... did you know the lifetime of an typeinfo object returned by the typeid operator? etc)
02:57:21 <CakeProphet> ...what's the purpose of specifying the type of the variable? The only reason I could see if gaining a smidgeon of efficiency... since all variables are limited to a maxinum number of bytes.
02:58:04 <Asztal> compile-time checking rather than run-time?
02:58:22 <xor> CakeProphet: um
02:58:37 <Asztal> and with template meta-programming you can do some quite cool compile-time checks
02:58:44 <xor> it's a lot of effeincy
02:59:36 <CakeProphet> and... people working with large, memory consuming programs...
02:59:46 <Asztal> no, they can get stuffed
03:01:12 <xor> Most languages are statically typed
03:02:59 <CakeProphet> static typing methinks can make things more difficult as well..
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03:07:17 <CakeProphet> also... C++ uses strangely inconsistent syntax.
03:07:38 <CakeProphet> Each type declaration seems to use its own branch of syntax...
03:08:13 <CakeProphet> Everything seems to be case-by-case and specific to various sitatuins... rather than a general, simple syntax.
03:16:15 <Asztal> well, it did evolve from C and "C with classes"
03:16:32 <Asztal> its syntax makes sense to me, though.
03:17:48 <CakeProphet> Nothing seems consistent in it... at the moment.
03:18:24 <Asztal> anything in particular?
03:18:39 <Asztal> I guess function pointers are a bit... messy
03:19:50 <Asztal> maybe I'm just used to it.
03:20:12 <CakeProphet> Each new thing I encounter uses some alternate and somewhat different syntax...
03:22:43 <Asztal> it's probably a good thing you're not using the C standard library
03:22:55 <Asztal> unless you are, in which case, un-lucky!
03:27:12 <CakeProphet> haha... how weird... strings are accesses via something in the standard library.
03:28:01 <Asztal> I don't find it weird :)
03:29:05 <wooby> i've never done anything w/ c++ really
03:29:18 <wooby> although i looked into it when java 1.5 had generics
03:29:24 <wooby> i guess the generics in c++ are pretty serious
03:29:37 <Asztal> they're turing complete
03:29:52 <Asztal> you can do stupid stuff with them :|
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17:11:17 <xor_> all the programming classes at the local community college are in Java, VB or C##
17:13:54 <xor_> There are much better ways
17:14:00 <xor_> Python, for example
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17:16:18 <RodgerTheGreat> that's incorrect. Java is a functional language, not an imperative language.
17:17:20 <xor_> java certainly isn't functional
17:18:18 <lindi-> java certainly isn't functional indeed
17:18:40 <lindi-> python has more functional properties like anonymous functions
17:26:15 <GregorR-L> Java is functional in the least ...
17:26:40 <GregorR-L> It's imperative, subclass procedural, subclass object oriented, subclass nazi-type object orientation.
17:27:02 <GregorR-L> Java is NOT functional in the least ^^
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21:41:06 <lament> somebody from #esoteric was trolling in #haskell? :)
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23:31:44 <ihope> So why do they say Linux is so much better than Windows?
23:32:15 <ihope> The people who say that.
23:32:31 <lindi-> ihope: different people probably have different reasons :)
23:32:44 <ihope> What are some of them?
23:33:04 <xor_> you can hack the kernel
23:33:37 <lindi-> ihope: i consider it better since i value the freedom to share and change software
23:34:08 <lament> windows is better because it is more stable
23:36:49 <lament> linux crashed on me all the time, after switching to windows i never have problems
23:37:19 <lindi-> good, you can get practice in fixing bugs :)
23:37:46 <xor_> heh you are insane
23:39:24 <lindi-> lament: what are the bug numbers?
23:51:19 <lindi-> lament: for the crashes
23:51:28 <lindi-> lament: or didn't you report them?
23:51:57 <lindi-> lament: oh, would have been nice to fix
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00:38:46 <Razor-X> Higher-order functions are supposedly harder than pointers?
00:38:59 <Razor-X> (Reading the above article.)
00:39:59 <lament> C has function pointers
00:40:07 <Razor-X> It's an odd concept in the beginning. But insanely powerful when learned.
00:40:10 <lament> with which you can make higher-order functions.
00:40:19 <lament> so i would say they're equally difficult :)
00:40:31 <lament> except that many people learn pointers without learning function pointers
00:40:45 <lament> still... on the whole, i would say pointers are much MORE difficult
00:40:46 <Razor-X> Function pointers are awesome.
00:41:00 <Razor-X> I mean, it's just a pointer pointing to a function. Yeesh :P
00:41:07 <xor_> lament: I don't see what people think is so difficult about pointers
00:41:27 <Razor-X> I think a higher-order function is only difficult if you've been trained as an imperative robot all of your life.
00:42:06 <xor_> What's a higher-order function?
00:43:09 <xor_> higher-order functions aren't hard to understand
00:45:19 <Razor-X> Lisp, in general, was hard for me to pick up in the very beginning.
00:45:45 <Razor-X> I spent spring break reading about Common Lisp and bashing myself for being seemingl incapable of understanding it.
00:45:58 <Razor-X> (I thought Scheme was weak for some reason and didn't learn it. Heh.)
00:46:52 <lament> higher order functions are conceptually much more simple than objects
00:47:02 <lament> and everybody uses objects without a second thought
00:47:25 <xor_> Razor-X: Higher order functions seem like something a brute-force laboring imperitive robot would do
00:47:51 <lament> there's nothing non-imperative about higher order functions
00:48:04 <xor_> hey, robot, map(pound_in_nails,stack_of_wood)
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00:50:48 <Razor-X> Then one magic moment it clicked, but I still didn't like Common Lisp, so I went onto OCaML. The syntax looked like some sort of unholy union of odd things, so I moved on to Haskell. I ended up writing an IRC bot in Haskell from scratch and *that's* when functional programming really clicked. I had enough of passing state in creative ways, and learned Scheme. I loved it.
00:51:20 <xor_> I'm learning common lisp
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00:52:50 <Razor-X> Common Lisp isn't abstracted enough, IMO.
00:53:15 <xor_> I'm really not liking the different function and variable namespaces
00:53:23 <xor_> It's ugly and inconsistent
00:53:37 <Razor-X> Another thing is, the Common Lisp spec is huge.
00:54:15 <xor_> But tail recursion a la scheme is ugly too
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00:54:31 <Razor-X> Isn't it the same in CL and Scheme?
00:54:45 <xor_> Yeah, but it is encouraged in scheme
00:54:57 <Razor-X> Well... it *is* functional programming.
00:55:00 <xor_> I don't think recursively most of the time
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00:55:24 <Razor-X> See, that's the trapped mindset of an imperative thinker.
00:55:54 <xor_> recursing is not effecient
00:56:01 <Razor-X> Tail recursion is made effecient.
00:56:19 <Razor-X> Almost all of Lisp's idioms encourage the use of tail recursion. Haskell does too.
00:56:28 <xor_> Can I see your irc bot in haskell?
00:57:04 <Razor-X> Heh, I'll put it up a bit later, sure. There are some messy parts (the semi-modular framework especially), though, so be warned.
00:57:18 <Razor-X> I'll be rewriting it in Scheme, maybe.
01:05:18 <Razor-X> I wish the stupid recursive-application-for-internship was applied to high-schoolers.
01:08:00 <Razor-X> But in all seriousness, when I think of a programming problem, I think of it either in Scheme, or pseudo-C/pseudo-Forth (this is generally for low-level stuff).
01:08:40 <Razor-X> Sometimes I get angry for thinking in Scheme, because Scheme solutions come so easily for me (but nifty, I've been working on a small CAS for my Palm recently).
01:12:16 <Razor-X> Very nifty: http://home.earthlink.net/~krautj/sassy/sassy-Z-H-2.html#node_toc_start Scheme assembler.
01:14:49 <xor_> CASs are great
01:15:11 <xor_> ha ha lisp asm
01:16:08 <xor_> Why would you get angry for thinking in scheme?
01:16:17 <Razor-X> Because most of the world doesen't use it.
01:17:03 <Razor-X> Yup. I've been working mainly on the infix->postfix bit now, and converting that to an intermediary form I can perform CAS goodness with.
01:18:26 * xor_ loves his calculator
01:18:36 <xor_> It has lots of CAS goodness
01:30:17 <GregorR-L> Well, I'd like to plug the teletype into my modern box ^^
01:30:42 <RodgerTheGreat> the idea of having a physical terminal for root appeals to me.
01:31:06 <RodgerTheGreat> "Awright, no more fucking around! Where's the fanfold paper?"
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01:35:20 <RodgerTheGreat> and instead of sneakernetting files across the room with a flashdrive, punch them onto tape and have teletypes stationed all over your house.
01:41:25 <xor_> Razor-X: People say scheme is purely an academic language, with no practical use
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02:55:53 <xor_> Please support your awnser with a detailed explaination
02:57:15 <xor_> ^^ what my teachers say
03:05:58 <lament> it's good they're not my teachers :)
03:06:15 <xor_> But really, why is that so?
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03:11:02 <Razor-X> There are practical uses, IMO. But the industry doesen't care about the merits of one language over another more than a language whose code is easily debuggable by a lot of people.
03:14:24 <Razor-X> I would think functional programming on the whole is very easily debuggable because there are no side-effects.
03:24:50 <lament> unfortunately scheme is not a side-effect free language
03:25:05 <lament> and side effects play an important role in the standard idioms
03:25:23 <lament> but yes, haskell does have its merits :)
03:25:45 <Razor-X> Haskell is a lot of fun, I admit. But state passing, at some point, becomes infesible.
03:26:02 <xor_> So haskell doesn't have global vars?
03:26:47 <xor_> In my mind, that prevents abstraction
03:27:33 <Razor-X> Well, you can attempt to wrap your mind around a StateT monad, or do the simple thing and pass state around in lists.
03:28:11 <Razor-X> It's a great exercise of the mind, because you'll realize that ~60% of the state you wastefully use normally is useless.
03:29:08 <lament> xor_: um, it's not that haskell doesn't have global variables
03:29:22 <lament> xor_: it's that the concept of "variable" is completely alien to Haskell because it doesn't have _any_.
03:29:45 <lament> xor_: stuff is immutable. Nothing varies.
03:30:01 <lament> you do have arguments to functions.
03:30:33 <lament> which people call variables if they like, but it's quite a different thing
03:30:46 <lament> since, again, they don't vary
03:31:17 <lament> so a "global variable" would be a "global constant", which is probably not what you had in mind.
03:33:49 <xor_> I need to learn more languages so I can keep up with the discussion in this channel!
03:44:42 <xor_> I coded a little in haskell for a bit
03:44:44 <lament> or at least get familiar with its concepts; you don't actually need to learn it.
03:44:58 <lament> same with forth, lisp, smalltalk
03:45:06 <lament> then you can keep up with practically any discussion
03:45:15 <xor_> I need to learn some smalltalk
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03:54:15 <lament> that should take you all of five minutes
03:54:33 <lament> smalltalk is probably the smallest language that was ever commercially used :)
03:54:40 <lament> or is it tied with forth
03:58:56 <xor_> I know, I know, not comercially
04:17:30 <Razor-X> I haven't done anything with SmallTalk either, meself.
04:18:02 <Razor-X> I like to actually get my feet wet in a language. I think of some pseudo-project and do it, to get a working feel of the language.
04:20:53 <Razor-X> One of the things I dislike thoroughly about R5RS is multiple-return support.
04:21:10 <Razor-X> That's one of those things done to make the language more effecient, but EH.
04:24:12 <Razor-X> The Revised 5 Report on Scheme. The current ``de-facto'' standard.
04:24:43 <Razor-X> R6RS is in the making and will be revolutionaly in that, it will standardize previously implementation-specific things instead of merely language specific.
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15:20:52 * SimonRC loves the fact that Haskell, like C and C++, has first-class variables.
15:21:25 <SimonRC> it can make writing imperative code cleaner too, not writing functions
15:22:47 <SimonRC> Haskell (versus Java) lacks: Good marketing (Sun), buzzword-compliance (OOP, AOP), the ability for idiots to think they understand it (Java monkeys).
15:23:40 <SimonRC> If we were taught Haskell *instead* of Java, I would be a better programmer, but 70% of my class would have dropped out.
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16:45:54 <bsmntbombdood> SimonRC: Don't let school get in the way of your education
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19:04:31 <SimonRC> I followed the advice of a graduate friend and learnt more Haskell in my free time in the first year than we were taught in the second year.
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21:30:01 <ihope> Six megahertz processor with 28 kilobytes of RAM. Isn't it wonderful?
21:36:48 <ihope> It seems to be from 1992.
21:36:57 <ihope> About as old as I am, not that I'm very old.
21:39:01 <oerjan> did they still use only 28 kilobytes anywhere in 1992?
21:39:31 <ihope> In graphing calculators, apparently.
21:41:38 <jix> i love mine too
21:42:00 <ihope> Hey, wait, wait...
21:42:06 <jix> anyone know what cpu is/will be used in those new n-spire things?
21:42:08 * oerjan has an HP28S from 1989.
21:42:30 <ihope> The TI-86 has a whopping 128KB of RAM.
21:43:18 <ihope> The TI-83 has 256KB.
21:43:52 <ihope> In the Silver Edition, that's 2MB.
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21:45:55 <ihope_> The TI-86 seems to have no flash ROM. It has twice as much ROM as RAM, actually.
21:47:08 <jix> ti-86 is from 1997
21:49:26 <ihope_> The TI-89 still has less than the TI-83 Silver Edition.
21:51:16 <ihope_> The Voyage 200 has 2.7 MB of flash ROM and 188 KB of RAM.
21:52:50 <ihope_> Now, the TI-Nspire CAS has a whopping 36 MB of memory.
21:53:22 <ihope_> 16 MB of that is RAM, which should make it possible to run Linux on it :-)
21:57:00 <ihope_> What's the cheapest one with at least 16MB of memory? :-)
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21:57:29 <bsmntbombdood> this nspire thing is probably going to be super expensive
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22:38:39 * SimonRC suggests that the channel be renamed ##calculators
22:43:51 <SimonRC> you keep talking about calculators
23:07:41 <ihope_> Well, lament's the one to talk to about renaming. :-)
23:12:06 <ihope_> "'From now on, I will be recommending sex . . . as the cure-all for intractable hiccups.'" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiccup
23:12:12 * rt tries to think of a fun, simple recreational programming project.
23:13:15 <lindi-> sorry to ask here too but has anybody used gdb to debug freebsd's kernel? i got everything working but using "si" command is very painful since the timer interrupt gets triggered between all instructions
23:19:23 <ihope_> And what happened to aftran.com?
23:50:59 <ihope_> My last line there: [11/15/2006 8:32 PM] <ihope> Wait, what?
23:58:03 <ihope_> Now for a random hostname: dhcp03181.mid-resnet.unc.edu
00:01:52 <ihope_> dhcp03181.mid-resnet.unc.edu = Aftran.
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00:32:50 <Razor-X> I have a whole bunch of fun programming projects planned.
00:40:57 <Razor-X> A revision of my old IRC bot in Scheme, an LZW compression test in Forth, the NN science project of course, and attempting to reverse engineer my old scanner.
00:42:38 <Razor-X> Yeah. There are some features I just didn't want to code in Haskell, plus I thought I'd give the code a rewrite anywho.
00:42:57 <Razor-X> I had a bit of free time left over yesterday and just rewrote the parser.
00:45:28 <ihope_> What's the shrink on LZW, optimally?
00:45:45 <Razor-X> I don't quite remember, but it's not all that good, I believe.
00:45:51 <Razor-X> LZW is just really really simple.
00:46:24 <Razor-X> Although, I would imagine that it is pretty good if you apply delta encoding to the data first, assuming the data is more-or-less contiguous.
00:47:47 * ihope_ LZW-encodes a series of 3
00:48:45 <ihope_> Make that a series of |.
00:48:51 <ihope_> It's almost a series of tubes.
00:51:22 <ihope_> Does | look clogged to you?
00:51:41 <ihope_> ! is a clogged tube. That little space near the bottom is an internet.
00:52:14 <ihope_> Anyway, LZW seems to be square root.
00:55:41 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
00:55:43 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
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00:59:36 <Razor-X> Not really. We find creative ways to kill EgoBot all the time.
00:59:47 <Razor-X> And I discovered that bug a long time ago. I guess GregorR's gotten lazy.
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01:06:31 <GregorR-L> My solution was to make it reload if it fails ;)
01:07:47 <EgoBot> ~}|{zyxwvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba`_^]\[ZYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@?>=<;:9876543210/.-,+*)('&%$#"!
01:12:11 <ihope_> Here, have an alphabet: " .Ladeilmoprstu"
01:12:58 <ihope_> Have some numbers as well: 2, 9, 11, 5, 8, 0, 6, 10, 12, 14, 19, 4, 9, 7, 16, 0, 12, 6, 13, 0, 3, 8, 5, 13, 1
01:13:42 <ihope_> Each number is the index of the wanted character in that alphabet.
01:13:59 <ihope_> You guess what 16 and 19 are.
01:15:34 <ihope_> Here, have a partially decoded string: "Lorem ipsu[19]dol[16] sit amet."
01:16:10 <ihope_> Why not make " .LadeilmoprstuLorem ipsu[19]dol[16] sit amet." an alphabet, too?
01:16:55 <ihope_> Then, as long as you do it right, 16 and 19 will index to "or" and "m ", respectively.
01:24:52 <ihope_> Hey, why don't we run LZW output through a Huffman thingy?
01:25:10 <ihope_> (I'm sure we all love Huffman thingies.)
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01:48:48 <ihope_> Now, if one ran LZW over Huffman codes...
01:49:57 * ihope_ gets bored and implements LZW in Haskell instead of this boring stuff
01:50:32 <ihope_> where boringStuff = filter javaApplets (`isRelatedTo` lzw)
01:52:13 <ihope_> Actually, maybe I'd rather not do that.
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02:36:20 <ihope_> Huffman codes over LZW?
02:45:13 <SimonRC> I suppose I ought to post this here too:
02:45:15 <SimonRC> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyvrqcxNIFs
02:45:17 <SimonRC> Title: _UCLA Police Taser Student in Powell_ Length: 06:53
02:45:18 <SimonRC> the length and title say it all, really
02:48:11 <SimonRC> Can you say "bystander effect"?
02:49:29 <SimonRC> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect
02:50:30 <RodgerTheGreat> I was just talking about this with a friend of mine earlier today.
02:50:45 <bsmntbombdood> Yeah I was supprised that the other kids didn't do anything
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02:53:50 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: Oh, and you'd be different?
02:55:08 <SimonRC> I'm not even going to bother responding to that, except with this sentance, which, in saying what is does, is actually quite a response.
03:00:30 <RodgerTheGreat> bsmntbombdood: a major contributing factor to others not stepping in to help is the fact that the officers could easily have tazed anyone who tried to interfere as well.
03:01:24 <RodgerTheGreat> it's one thing to try to help someone, it's another to stand up to someone with a weapon.
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18:52:13 <Asztal> doesn't Brainfuck have a fixed amount of cells (30000)?
18:53:18 <Asztal> meaning you would have a really hard time storing the hosted program's data and the interpreter's state at the same time
19:04:55 <bsmntbombdood> You don't need two pointers, you need a stack to keep the pointers on
19:05:45 <SevenInchBread> with two new commands. "@" switches the control over to the other pointer.... and "&" calls the subroutine with a label that matches the number in the current cell.... using the inactive pointers cell value as input.
19:05:53 <SevenInchBread> yes... overly elaborate and confusing... I like my idea.
19:06:17 <jix__> this game http://method-missing.org/2006/shmup-status-report-1 searches a name.. someone has an idea?
19:07:08 <SevenInchBread> in subroutines... ; would represent the functions input... and , would return a value
19:10:12 <SevenInchBread> it woudl be more powerful... since you're no longer limited to a single linear sequence of cells... you can "break it up" into subroutines... so it would be easier to organize and work with.
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19:27:50 <SevenInchBread> I don't understand why Brainfuck interpreters use a limited array size.
19:34:30 <lindi-> SevenInchBread: if the memory is limited then it's simply impossible to interpret all brainfuck programs with a brainfuck interpreter
19:34:49 <lindi-> depending on how you define "interpret" of course
19:40:45 <RodgerTheGreat> in some cases, an arbitrary memory size is easier to implement- remember, the language was designed to be implemented in the smallest possible compiler. 30000 cells is simply a number that people agree is sufficient for most tasks, and supported as a standard.
19:42:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I did a one-liner in perl earlier, mainly because I'd assumed that's how perl coders usually finish their code.
19:43:43 <RodgerTheGreat> I think perl users and BF users have a common appreciation for the "neat code block" way of displaying their work.
19:46:38 <RodgerTheGreat> the only thing that tripped me up in writing it was forgetting that perl uses eq for string comparison, rather than ==.
19:47:36 <RodgerTheGreat> and I thought you'd be more interested in the structure of the program than it's formatting
19:50:35 <SevenInchBread> because they just sort... of... don't work like that. *scratches head*
19:52:48 <RodgerTheGreat> regular expressions can make logical comparisons, so I'll bet that if you combined a while-loop and a regex, you could simulate a universal turing machine
19:53:06 <RodgerTheGreat> symbolic rewriting was the basis of turing machines to begin with
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20:09:00 <Asztal> so you're saying that there might be a regular expression that, if appled enough times, could mutate some input into a list of fibonacci numbers?
20:09:09 <Asztal> because that would be awesome :D
20:09:39 <SevenInchBread> hmmm... creating a bf interpreter in one expression is proving to be a puzzle...
20:10:06 <SevenInchBread> ambda bf: [lambda x, y: ((x + 1 if com == "<" else (x - 1 if com == ">"), (((y + 1 if y < 255 else 0) if com == "+" else ((y - 1 if y > 0 else 255) if com == "-") if com != "," else ord(raw_input("Enter a character as input:"))), (1 if com == "." else 0))))]
20:10:55 <SevenInchBread> it just takes the pointer location x and the size of a cell 1 and does stuff to it...
20:12:34 <SevenInchBread> In order to do this WITHOUT making my head explode... I'm going to need to utilize at least two lines.
20:14:36 <SevenInchBread> one line being a lambda function that returns a sequence representing the current cell, current cell value, and whether or not to print the cell value...
20:15:36 <RodgerTheGreat> Asztal: yeah, that's the idea- I'm pretty sure it ought to be possible.
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20:18:59 <RodgerTheGreat> calamari: how familiar are you with regular expressions?
20:20:37 <Asztal> I want to write one that adds two numbers together, that should be a nice first regex
20:20:41 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm pondering the turing-completeness of a string substitution regular expression wrapped in a loop.
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20:21:18 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm thinking math might be simpler to implement if you used binary or something- fewer symbols to bother with.
20:21:58 <RodgerTheGreat> you effectively have to hardcode every two-digit pairing to handle carrying, and the rest is pretty simple.
20:22:40 <calamari> well, if I remember correctly, a single loop is enough
20:22:53 <Asztal> I was going to ask how to pick the last digit pair in the string, but I just realised how easy that is :/
20:23:17 <calamari> but obviously for some langs, one loop isn't enough.. bf
20:23:22 <RodgerTheGreat> calamari: correct, as we learned from the turing completeness proof for the Z3/
20:24:10 <calamari> can you change an arbitrary memory location?
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20:24:39 <RodgerTheGreat> it was actually more subtle than that- let me see if I can find the article again.
20:24:56 <calamari> seems like you'd have to know the value you wanted to change in order to change it
20:25:09 <RodgerTheGreat> http://www.zib.de/zuse/Inhalt/Kommentare/Html/0684/universal2.html
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20:26:20 <calamari> I remember rewriting a bf interpreter to only use one loop
20:27:18 <RodgerTheGreat> I'll bet that with a suitably insane coding technique, you could code a UTM in BF with only one loop.
20:28:10 <calamari> looks like I used if statements
20:28:28 <SimonRC> with 8-bit cells, it would either loop forever or loop at most 255 times
20:28:47 <GregorR-L> Push [s as you hit them, pop ]s as you hit them.
20:29:12 <GregorR-L> Oh wait, we're talking about two different things **
20:29:25 <calamari> GregorR-L: <RodgerTheGreat> I'm pondering the turing-completeness of a string substitution regular expression wrapped in a loop.
20:29:31 <RodgerTheGreat> yes, the Z3 solution depends on having multiplication and division, from which conditional logic can be abstracted- and then there's the halting problem.
20:29:50 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm inclined to agree with SimonRC now that I think about it more.
20:31:58 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: Regular expressions aren't Turing complete. Regular expression matching is decidable (it is in NP) but Turing machines are not genarally decidable. Regexes, OTOH...
20:33:54 <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: ah, wait, you've now started talking about substitution, which is a regex thing not a regular expression thing.
20:34:54 <calamari> I'm pretty sure regex is short for regular expression
20:35:46 <calamari> so, <SimonRC> RodgerTheGreat: ah, wait, you've now started talking about substitution, which is a regular expression thing not a regular expression thing.
20:35:47 <SimonRC> it used to be, but any decent regex engine allows more powerful things than just regular expressions.
20:35:50 <GregorR-L> However a regular expression engine can have any range of powers, and a "regular expression" is just a pattern matching thing, so substitution has nothing to do with "regular expessions," it's just a power of the regex engine.
20:36:23 * SimonRC is making the same distinction Wall did.
20:36:55 <RodgerTheGreat> ah, ok- thank you for clearing up any confusion regarding my use of terminology.
20:38:07 <SimonRC> aha, here is an example: \n Where n is a digit from 1 to 9; matches what the nth marked subexpression matched. This construct is theoretically irregular and has not been adopted in the extended regular expression syntax.
20:38:25 <Asztal> why couldn't we have 2 fingers, it would make my current one much simpler.
20:38:32 <SimonRC> the \n syntax expresses something impossible in regular expresions but possible in regexes
20:42:52 <SimonRC> And here is where I'm getting the Larry Wall definition from: http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/apo/A05.html
20:43:19 <SimonRC> "... generally having to do with what we call "regular expressions", which are only marginally related to real regular expressions. Nevertheless, the term has grown with the capabilities of our pattern matching engines, so I'm not going to try to fight linguistic necessity here. I will, however, generally call them "regexes" (or "regexen", when I'm in an Anglo-Saxon mood)."
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01:44:00 <xor> zomg zombies!
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06:25:25 <GregorR-L> Look what I happened to come across on QDB:
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06:41:43 <Asztal> I saw you on QDB recently :P
07:46:38 <ivan`> http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=iaintpayinyou
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10:44:59 <Razor-X> Well, actually, the bulk of the code goes to parsing ``2x + 2'' as ``(2 * x) + 2'', heh.
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16:52:08 <SimonRC> I think Scott Adams has been outdone: http://angryflower.com/functi.html
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18:11:12 <SimonRC> Sign: "Lube connection. Please use rear entrance."
18:11:15 <SimonRC> http://www.maximonline.com/slideshows/index.aspx?slideId=764&imgCollectId=59
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20:49:07 <CakeProphet> DO is only sent in response to a WILL, right?
21:03:05 <ihope> I think it can also happen the other way around.
21:03:38 <lindi-> telnet sounds horrible :)
21:03:57 <ihope> "Please DO RANDOMLY-LOSE." "Okay, I WILL RANDOMLY-LOSE".
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21:19:37 <SimonRC> I think I've been using this password too long...
21:19:58 <SimonRC> I am typing it and not realising I've done so.
21:20:07 <ihope> I forgot the password for my Linux box.
21:20:19 <ihope> Oh, I just remembered.
21:20:44 <ihope> It's that one word from the best joke in the world, except different.
21:22:54 <ihope> Except I can't remember if I used an at sign or an ampersand...
21:26:55 <SimonRC> hmm... "paracetamoxyfrusebendroneomycin"
21:26:57 <Asztal> I took a phrase from red dwarf, inverted it, and mangled it.
21:27:36 <Asztal> it breaks many things though because it has spaces
21:28:21 * SimonRC has used programming languages, numbers with significance, Goon show phrases, and function names.
21:28:42 <SimonRC> The latter are particularly good because they already look like garbage.
21:30:15 <SimonRC> Searching for one of the function names I have adapted resolves something I had always wondered; it turns up one of the pages in this manual: http://www.pcigeomatics.com/cgi-bin/pcihlp/EASI
21:31:05 <SimonRC> About 1000 sheets of fanfold with that stuff on is one of the persistant memories of my childhood.
21:31:05 <CakeProphet> yeah... it seems that telnet could easily go into random infinite loops if you don't know what sort of thing you're dealing with.
21:31:35 <SimonRC> (My dad once ran a script on some old computer system and forgot to turn off tracing, so every line executed was also traced.)
21:35:26 <CakeProphet> What would freenodes wildcards look like in Perl regex?
21:36:14 <CakeProphet> * is zero-or-more characters when used on freenodes ban thingy... and ? is exactly-one-character
21:37:33 <SimonRC> they would be .* and ., IIRC
21:38:57 <CakeProphet> hmmm... then I'll probably use a simplified form of Perl regex with ? being substituted for .
21:39:57 <ihope> You don't want . for a single character match there, do you? :-)
21:40:46 <CakeProphet> so I'll replace all "."'s with "\," in the ban string... and then convert all "?"'s to "."
21:40:48 <SimonRC> CakeProphet: so what would take the place of ?
21:41:06 <SimonRC> CakeProphet: Have you heard of a subnet mask? You should try it.
21:41:35 <SimonRC> nonono, I mean, what would take the old meaning of ?
21:42:13 <CakeProphet> Hmmm... not sure why I would need that. :D
21:42:45 <CakeProphet> I can't think of any situation where someones address would or would not have a specific string.
21:44:04 <SimonRC> Does this mean you are blocking by hostname?
21:44:56 <SimonRC> If I were a cracker, I would make sure that I hosted my own DNS, set the reverse lookup lifetimes to 0, then made reverse lookups *really* slow.
21:45:18 <SimonRC> So that doing reverse lookup wouldn;t be practical.
21:45:38 <CakeProphet> I'm blocking by whatever there address contains.
21:48:41 <SimonRC> It's a bizzare way to do it.
21:49:30 <SimonRC> You would either block to much or too little, most likely.
21:49:57 * CakeProphet really doesn't have much of a clue about IPs
21:50:30 <CakeProphet> I know my IP is usually either 250.* or 251.* ...which is a very big range if you plan on blocking me off permanently.
21:51:46 <SimonRC> You should leanr CIDR notation, at least.
21:52:09 <SimonRC> or rather, your program should accept it.
21:53:01 <ihope> CakeProphet: I assume by those you mean 33.250.* and 33.251.*...
21:53:34 <CakeProphet> Well... usually when I see my IP the 33 isn't there.
21:53:40 <SimonRC> well, that would be 33.250.0.0/15
21:54:39 <ihope> CakeProphet: 33.250.213.151?
21:55:02 <ihope> That's not what you usually see as your IP address, then?
21:55:29 <SimonRC> CakeProphet: anyway, your IP is 151.213.250.33, not 33.250.213.151
21:55:43 <SimonRC> Damned domain names are backwards
21:56:14 <CakeProphet> yeah.... 33 is something to with freenode...
21:56:35 <SimonRC> Who the heck though that would be a good idea?
21:56:49 <SimonRC> CakeProphet: no, it's just part of your IP address
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22:01:05 <SimonRC> UNIX paths, Windows paths, newsgroup names, OIDs, IP addresses, C-like stuct addressing, etc, etc are all big-endian. Why are domain names backwards?
22:03:24 <ihope> Who invented domain names?
22:03:49 <ihope> And IP addresses, and email addresses?
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22:07:50 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
22:07:52 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
22:14:50 <ihope> !daemon cat bf +[>,.<]
22:15:12 <ihope> EgoBot, did you invent domain names, IP addresses, and email addresses?
22:15:42 * CakeProphet is having to learn him some networking stuff so he knows what he's doing when he blocks stuff...
22:15:43 <ihope> CakeProphet: a network within a network?
22:16:40 <ihope> Used for "if it matches the subnet mask, direct it in, otherwise direct it out", if I remember correctly.
22:17:12 <CakeProphet> someone recommended I ban by isp subnet rather than by IP address..
22:17:20 <CakeProphet> but I'm not sure why... or how... I would do that.
22:18:52 <ihope> I think that'd be something like "hsd1.mi.comcast.net" for me or "ip.alltel.net" for you, maybe.
22:19:05 <ihope> Yes, let's ban all the Comcast users in Michigan.
22:19:27 <ihope> But maybe it isn't.
22:22:23 <SimonRC> CakeProphet: well, I appearance, the IP address space is flat..
22:22:40 <SimonRC> To help routing, it is divided up heirarchically.
22:23:21 <SimonRC> You can cut an IP address into blocks of bits, with the earlier bits being considered before the later ones for routing.
22:23:57 <CakeProphet> What is being "considered" and what does that involve...
22:24:31 <SimonRC> originally, this was only done on byte boundaries, producing class A networks (/8, meaning defined by an 8-bit sequence at the start), class B networks (/16), and class C networks (/24).
22:24:45 <SimonRC> CakeProphet: you know roughly how internet routing works, right?
22:25:40 <SimonRC> Well, it is (theoretically) close to heirarchical. A router looks at the first so many bits of an address, and chooses where to send it based on those.
22:26:24 <CakeProphet> where are these addresses come from... and where is the router sending them?
22:26:34 <SimonRC> A high-level router might only consider the first 8 bits, and dispatch based on those...
22:26:58 <SimonRC> CakeProphet: the address to which the packet is sent: an IP address
22:27:38 <SimonRC> consider a border router owned by Apple...
22:28:52 <SimonRC> The internet is roughly heirarchical in its routing, and things outside a network can ofter treat the layout inside that network as a "black box".
22:29:15 <SimonRC> a border router routes between the inside and outside of a network
22:29:56 <SimonRC> Apple owns all the addresses starting with 17.
22:30:17 <ihope> Really, or just for the purposes of explanation?
22:30:58 <ihope> What do they do with all of those?
22:32:57 <SimonRC> If a border router for Apple receives a packet, it will look at the first byte of the address. If that byte is not 17, it will look it up in a list that tells it which (external) line the packet should leave on, and send it out. If the first address byte *is* 17, it will look at the next byte or so, and look that up in a different list, to see which (internal) line it should send it out on.
22:33:57 <SimonRC> So a router only needs to know in detain about a bit of the Internet, and its knowlege of the internet can be compressed into short tables, rather than multi-Gb tables.
22:34:44 <CakeProphet> so packets are "funneled" to their locations by progressively going more internal.
22:35:09 <SimonRC> CakeProphet: or external...
22:35:20 <SimonRC> You go up the tree, then down.
22:35:43 <CakeProphet> so what does that have to do with banning IPs? :D
22:35:50 <CakeProphet> It's always nice to learn crap like that though
22:36:03 <SimonRC> Of course, it's nothing like a tree really, but the addresses *are* assigned so that you can abbreviate the routing table and still get very good results
22:36:19 <SimonRC> CakeProphet: I got an old copy of a networking book for £0.50
22:36:44 <CakeProphet> hmmm... so the packets go through various routers on the network right?
22:37:00 <SimonRC> CakeProphet: well, since the IP addresses are assigned in blocks, and that helps fast routing of packets, people's IP addresses will not tend to change much
22:37:30 <ihope> If I wanted to get to microsoft.com, I would send stuff to 192.168.0.4 (our router), which would send it to 73.43.4.1, which would send it to 12.244.250.193, which would send it to 12.118.112.9...
22:37:55 <SimonRC> Usually, there will be a point in their IP address after which they could get *any* set of bits and before which they always get the same bits.
22:38:01 <SimonRC> (IP addresses are 32 bits, BTW)
22:38:20 <CakeProphet> what would happen if... a router disconnected somewhere in the chain? Do they detect that this happens and send it down an alternate path?
22:38:25 <SimonRC> ihope: Ah, things get more complicated when you consider that routers have addresses too...
22:38:58 <ihope> CakeProphet: either that, or the network goes down, it would seem.
22:39:25 <ihope> My data would hang around in that general area (which seems to be owned by ATT), then go on to a different area at msn.com...
22:39:29 <SimonRC> Well, high-level routing is done via BGP usually, I am not sure what that does with failures...
22:40:06 <ihope> Then the sneaky msn.com people would send it off to who-knows-where, telling me only that it'll eventually get to microsoft.com, which is at 207.46.250.119.
22:40:19 <SimonRC> BGP is designed to take account of politics.
22:40:39 <SimonRC> e.g. you can't route packets from Canada to Canada through the USA.
22:40:56 <CakeProphet> hmmm.... okay, so now I just need to use that to determine how much change might occur in the IP address between router restarts... for banning the closest-fitting range possible.
22:41:02 <SimonRC> so BGP allows complicated policies about where packets are sent
22:41:17 <SimonRC> CakeProphet: this is very simple...
22:41:29 <ihope> Can't you say something like "have yahoo.com send this stuff to microsoft.com"?
22:43:18 <ihope> Is there something that would theoretically do that, if yahoo.com wants to participate?
22:43:27 <CakeProphet> I'm guessing the actual path of packets from destination A to destination B can change for each packet sent... so it won't be so absolute as "from yahoo.com to microsoft.com"
22:43:31 <SimonRC> CakeProphet: you consider all their recent IP addresses, and choose the longest sequence of bits that they have in common at the start, and you block that: If you have identified a sequence of n bits in common, then you append (32-n) zeroes to get 4 octets: a.b.c.d, then block a.b.c.d/n
22:45:13 <ihope> If you want to block "microwave", "microscope", and "microphone", generalize it to "micro*"?
22:46:27 <ihope> Well, 67.3.6.15 and 67.194.15.69 are both 67.0.0.0/8, if I'm not mistaken.
22:47:31 <SimonRC> CakeProphet: That is what CIDR notation uses
22:47:49 <SimonRC> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classless_Inter-Domain_Routing
22:47:50 <ihope> The zeroes are ignored, I think. It's just the first eight bits that are used.
22:48:29 <CakeProphet> Well I don't have anything that supports CIDR notation...
22:49:17 <SimonRC> It's trivial to progam yourself...
22:50:35 <CakeProphet> wouldn't it be just easier to use... Perl regex?
22:51:17 <SimonRC> To see if A.B.C.D is in a.b.c.d/n, you just do: mask = ~(0XFFFFFFFF >> n); if (A.B.C.D & mask == a.b.c.d & mask) { ... }
22:51:32 <CakeProphet> not to mention I would need to show everyone how CIDR works... and these are people that -aren't- as tech saavy as me.
22:51:40 <SimonRC> assuming 32-bit unsigned ints throughout
22:51:51 <SimonRC> CakeProphet: what's this for, anyway?
22:53:07 <CakeProphet> oh... anyone I give the command to (adminstrator-type folks)
22:53:36 <CakeProphet> and in my current projects I'm pretty much the most technically inclined person in the group.
22:54:25 <SimonRC> You could teach the computer how to deduce minimal ban blocks, then admins just feed it addresses or domain names, it keeps track of how recently each was used, and works out minimal bans.
22:54:33 <SimonRC> and makes sure old ones are discarded
22:55:09 <CakeProphet> Keep a list of recent IP addresses to connect to the account... and then deduce the most minimal ban possible.
22:55:09 <SimonRC> It should howver consider a component of a domain name as atomic.
22:55:27 <CakeProphet> but then... the data could get skewed if someone from a different ip logged into that account recently.
22:56:22 <CakeProphet> regex seems to be the easiest way to go... it's fairly easy to understand and most people are familiar with it.
22:56:53 <SimonRC> Well, splitting a ban into two sub-bans is quite trivial, you just add one more bit of significance and consider the two possibilities. Then, you trim those two bans to the minimum possible size, and see how much gets trimmed off.
22:57:40 <SimonRC> CakeProphet: but you must consider domain name components to be atomic, remember.
22:57:42 <CakeProphet> and this might not always be a user-based ban.
22:58:09 <SimonRC> Otherwise you will end up doing odd stuff with domain names that are derived from IP addresses
22:58:10 <CakeProphet> if, for example, someone hacks into someone elses account... then you would need to use an IP-specific block.
23:00:05 <CakeProphet> well... it's not Perl regex... it's Python's re module.
23:00:15 <CakeProphet> which was designed to be like Perl's tegex.
23:00:51 <SimonRC> This might be helpful, maybe: http://www.pc-tools.net/unix/grepcidr/
23:03:21 <CakeProphet> I was also thinking about using a "range" regex thing.
23:03:42 <CakeProphet> so the regex [1:4] would match 1, 2, 3, and 4
23:04:33 <CakeProphet> Which would be useful for IP addresses like mine...
23:05:25 <CakeProphet> the first part of my address is usually either 151 or 150... so you could use 15[0:1] to specify those two, without having to use a wildcard, which would be too broad.
23:06:59 <CakeProphet> In my modified regex, [1:10] == (1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10)
23:07:21 <CakeProphet> or is there an easier way to convert that?
23:09:26 <CakeProphet> don't think this module has a [1-9] like syntax.
23:27:57 <CakeProphet> SimonRC, So [x-y] matches the range between x and y?
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23:34:09 <SimonRC> CakeProphet: [x-y] is a range of characters
23:35:15 <ihope> If I'm not mistaken, [1-10] would be all characters from 1 to 1, or 0.
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23:45:36 <Eidolos> I like the idea of [1:10] if you find better syntax for it.
23:46:37 <ihope> What's wrong with [1:10]?
23:47:45 <Eidolos> Should that match a 1, 0, :, 2, 3, or a number from 10 to 23?
23:50:23 * ihope giggles slightly at the 500,000,000,000,000 mega-amps of current going through a wire
23:53:59 <ihope> According to Google, that's over 274,000,000,000,000 kilograms of electrons moving through there every second.
23:55:26 <ihope> It's quite the wire, isn't it?
23:55:56 <ihope> Note to self: never put an ideal wire across a near-ideal battery.
00:00:04 <SimonRC> ihope: erm, where di you get those?
00:01:05 <ihope> I got it from this guy named Paul Falstad.
00:20:55 <ihope> He gives them away.
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04:28:14 <Razor-X> If you're doing something like a MUD and expecting moderate user traffic, then using CIDR seems most advantageous. Regexps are a lot slower than bitshifts.
04:29:13 <Razor-X> You could attempt to wrap the CIDR at a low-level and present it to the administrators at a level they are comfortable working at though.
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06:13:32 <Razor-X> Hooray, he didn't get my advice.
06:13:39 <Razor-X> Oh well. I'll leave him to his slow MUD.
06:26:48 <ivan`> the only feature Bibble needs is to be able to pick the sharpest photo of a set
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06:40:05 <Razor-X> Well, maybe you should be doing more chatting in #esoteric, hmmm?
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11:07:31 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
11:07:32 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
11:08:09 <Zowayix> print "Testing foo blah hello world stuff"
11:08:51 <Zowayix> this is the channel with internet relay programming, right? >_>
11:14:25 <EgoBot> bf/, glass/, linguine/
11:15:32 <EgoBot> To use an interpreter: <interpreter> <program> Note: <program> can be the actual program, an http:// URL, or a file:// URL which refers to my pseudofilesystem.
11:17:03 * Zowayix slaps EgoBot around a bit with a large trout
11:17:43 <Zowayix> methinks i'll just be escaping from that not-yet-existent angry mob now.
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20:43:14 <ihope> Somehow, the "Schroedinger" in ##quantum's topic changed to "Schrodinger".
20:45:59 <pgimeno> some random collapse, I guess
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20:50:02 <RodgerTheGreat> so, you're saying his name exists in many quantum states until someone attempts to spell it?
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01:30:33 <dbc> I want someone to systematically administer a Turing Test to the customer service departments of large businesses, and report the results.
01:31:07 <dbc> With derision where appropriate.
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16:33:40 <RodgerTheGreat> although, in my timezone, it's still technically morning.
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17:57:20 <SimonRC> lol at claim 9: http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220040161257%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20040161257&RS=DN/20040161257
18:23:29 <sp3tt> There are bf interpreters in lots of languages, right?
18:24:59 <lament> latex is a programming language?
18:25:30 <SimonRC> lament: it's just as turing complete as (say) unlambda version 1
18:25:38 <sp3tt> Yes, it is. I found a package that lets you use arrays.
18:25:52 <lament> well, i suppose if it has arrays it must be turing-complete
18:26:09 <sp3tt> The only problem is that all variables are global, meaning that loops are somewhat tricky to implement.
18:27:39 <sp3tt> I implemented BF on my calculator once.
18:27:44 <sp3tt> (Next up: toaster.)
18:28:02 <sp3tt> (If my toaster can run Linux, it can run brainfuck!)
18:28:27 <RodgerTheGreat> I suppose you could consider heated bread to be a type of particle automaton.
18:30:43 <sp3tt> The calculator didn't have local variables either.
18:32:34 <sp3tt> Maybe without the +.
18:32:53 <sp3tt> Hello World took about... two minutes to execute.
18:32:55 <RodgerTheGreat> I should take a crack at programming my 11c to do that...
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01:22:42 <Razor-X> LaTeX has arithmetic support?
01:22:50 <Razor-X> News to me, because it would sure help my formulas out.
01:23:06 <xor> I love latex
01:23:09 <Razor-X> (I'm going to write a little prepocessor in Scheme to make that a bit easier on me, though.)
01:23:49 <xor> It's so funny when someone sees my reports and is like "How did you do that?"
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01:24:02 <xor> RodgerTheGreat: really?!
01:24:08 <Razor-X> My Physics teachers *adore* my LaTeX.
01:24:24 <Razor-X> Well, he loves me using it.
01:24:24 <xor> my physics teacher is TERRIBLE
01:24:36 <Razor-X> And I like him much less than that even.
01:24:36 <RodgerTheGreat> I remember reading about that last time I flipped through a LaTeX manual
01:24:48 <xor> We just took a test, he graded it very badly
01:26:25 <Razor-X> I hate the man in general. He teaches awfully, and will mean I'll probably have to study that much harder on the AP test.
01:26:40 <Razor-X> He *ALWAYS* goes offtopic. Today it was about designers designing things for their gender groups.
01:26:47 <xor> yep, mine too
01:26:53 <xor> teaches badly, doesn't go off topic
01:26:59 <RodgerTheGreat> I've had entirely too many shitty teachers in my school career.
01:27:31 <Razor-X> And he feels like picking on me, for some odd reason.
01:27:35 <RodgerTheGreat> every now and again, I get a really fantastic one, but most teachers are evil and/or incompetent.
01:27:48 <xor> I need to go in and rub some stuff in his face
01:27:57 <xor> About precision and accuracy
01:28:19 <Razor-X> He spends 2 WHOLE HOURS on idiocy and has a very ... odd ... view of what Calculus is.
01:28:34 <xor> My phsyics teacher is afraid of calculus
01:28:42 <xor> Or, thinks we should be
01:28:49 <Razor-X> Example of Calculus from my Physics teacher:
01:29:41 <Razor-X> ``Using the data, you can chart the viscosity of the liquid in day 1, day 2, day 20, etc. Now take it to its limit [My Note: That's his favorite phrase], use Calculus. Using Calculus you can find out what the viscosity is on the 7th day 11th hour.''
01:29:49 <Asztal> my high school physics teachers were good... I think. I can't remember.
01:29:52 <RodgerTheGreat> My government teacher was insanely sexist. I was on numerous occasions tempted to prove to the class that she was a hypocritical numbskull, but I decided that remaining neutral in her eyes would be less dangerous than earning her hatred.
01:29:53 <Razor-X> Someone didn't tell our Physics teacher about fractional days.
01:30:06 <Razor-X> What's scary is that he's teaching an AP class.
01:30:07 <RodgerTheGreat> "keep your enemies so close they don't know they're your enemies"
01:30:30 <Razor-X> Hyper-feminists are fun in their oversighted stupidity.
01:31:18 <RodgerTheGreat> the problem is that they tend to get away with sexism a bit more easily than men.
01:31:40 <Razor-X> I agree. And I'm female, so :)
01:32:13 <Razor-X> What irks me is when women call for equality, but then shamelessly use their ``We're weak! Help us!'' covetisms if they do something wrong/bad.
01:33:56 <RodgerTheGreat> it's fairly frustrating that so many vehement feminists seem to want all the benefits of "perfect equality" without any of the negatives. In my book, discrimination is discrimination, wether it's "justified" or not.
01:34:58 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm sure that not all feminists are hypocrites, but the most vocal ones really give the whole movement a bad name- not unlike most things.
01:35:46 <RodgerTheGreat> Christianity, Atheism, Black people, White people, Men, Women, Democrats, Republicans...
01:37:24 <xor> feminism is to womens rights as black nationalism is to black rights
01:39:00 <Razor-X> Well also, the feminist movement has died down nowadays. So the self-proclaimed zealots tend to be the ones who want one-sided favoritism instead of equality.
01:40:44 <Razor-X> Which brings to mind a parallel I made earlier about temporary hacker death.
01:41:38 <xor> That reminds me--I get to go talk to the programming teacher at my school
01:42:07 <Razor-X> They teach telephony at our school... although on what language basis, I have absolutely no idea.
01:42:10 <xor> "OOP is the awnser! Long live Java!"
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01:42:56 <Razor-X> Especially considering C++ *shudder*.
01:42:59 <RodgerTheGreat> there is seriously nothing wrong with Java as a language
01:43:09 <xor> Razor-X: c++ too
01:43:13 <Razor-X> I think Java's stigma comes from this:
01:43:29 <RodgerTheGreat> Not every language needs to be about speed or compiler efficiency
01:43:31 * Sgeo randomly says "LSL"
01:43:56 <Razor-X> A) 99% of today's Java programmers can't code for poop because they've only been trained at one level of programming and have no real ``aptitude''. B) The implementations are very very ineffecient.
01:44:20 <xor> On the phone, he asks, "Has he tried an object oriented language like C++ or Java?"
01:44:43 <Razor-X> Java is good in that, it's readable for someone with C-only experience.
01:44:53 <Razor-X> It definitely succeeds there, where C++ utterly fails.
01:45:03 <RodgerTheGreat> I'd say those are fair criticisms, as long as you bear in mind the advantages of Java
01:45:27 <xor> I need some compelling arguments against C++ and Java for when I go in
01:45:48 <RodgerTheGreat> Java nails cross-platform operation like virtually no other language, and that's certainly worth some hits on speed
01:45:50 <Razor-X> I have a bunch of complaints against C++, but I don't mind Java that much.
01:46:06 <xor> What are your complaints against C++?
01:47:38 <Razor-X> The syntax is horribly discontiguous with C syntax. The data abstractions are often overly abstract, much unlike its C counterpart. C++'s object system is useless overhead for an object system that only contains the cogs of objects (instances, constructors, destructors), C++ programmers infuriatingly choose to use C++ abstract-equivalents to perfectly good C counterparts.
01:47:45 <RodgerTheGreat> I just don't really like C or C++, because they really make it clear that they weren't designed for usability as much as the ability to compile to machinecode. That doesn't mean I won't ever use them, but there's a difference between coding for fun and coding for work. I'm never going to code in C/C++ for *fun*.
01:48:42 <myu> i think all the languages belonging to the C-family are poor languages.. c/c++/java/php/python etc
01:48:47 <Asztal> I hate: C++'s compilation model.
01:48:51 <Razor-X> The standard library is immense immense. But this is also a criticism that applies to Java and CL too.
01:49:23 <myu> so guys, what do you think are the highest level languages?
01:49:30 <xor> pseudo code
01:49:39 <RodgerTheGreat> I'd say that Java's API is a more useful "standard library" than what comes with C, even if you say that it's bloated.
01:50:29 <oerjan> why, telepathy of course :)
01:50:30 <Razor-X> Well, there's another point too. Java's API is still usable if you only read the basics and skim when you need more. C++'s isn't.
01:50:33 <xor> human language can be a bitch to express a program in
01:50:35 <RodgerTheGreat> program specifications in English are effectively equivalent to sourcecode if they're detailed, they just need an extremely complex compiler (a human) to convert.
01:50:36 <Razor-X> CL is somewhere in between.
01:50:42 <myu> yeah human language isn't very high level
01:51:08 <myu> CL is so old, it makes no sense that CL would be one of the highest level languages these days heh :P
01:51:20 <xor> myu: Yep, it's crazy
01:51:24 <Razor-X> Forth is one of those languages that doesen't fit anywhere.
01:51:27 <RodgerTheGreat> in my mind, the best single thing about Java is the fact that it's designed in a very uniform way.
01:51:30 <xor> 50 years old, and still good
01:52:02 <Razor-X> That too! C++ is a hodgepodge. std::tuple, std::pair, std::list, I mean... what the **** ?
01:52:19 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah- one of the things that brings me pain when I code in C++/
01:52:48 <RodgerTheGreat> most C++ coders will respond "but I can do it with fewer characters than you can in Java!".
01:52:52 <Razor-X> C is good for what it is -- effecient (although Pascal may be a bit better, and Forth is good for lower-than-C-higher-than-ASM level).
01:53:06 <Razor-X> Sure. After reading a 1000 page+ manual.
01:53:07 <xor> Forth is just weird
01:53:38 <RodgerTheGreat> Java 5.0 I/O is *infinitely* better than it has been in the past, and even back then it wasn't too horrible if you understood what you were doing,
01:53:51 <myu> i'm a forth programmer, getting into ruby nowadays though
01:54:13 <Razor-X> Ruby is alright. Nothing too novel, but a good language as far as languages go.
01:54:28 <Razor-X> Scheme is probably my strongest language and is my Lingua Fortica.
01:54:33 <RodgerTheGreat> I just wish that fewere people would piss and moan when they're required to use a language they don't like. All languages have a time and a purpose, and whining doesn't make coding go any faster.
01:54:51 <myu> even tho i spent years with forth its so slow to code in.. takes so much time to figure out the simplest solution and to code the DSL etc
01:54:57 * RodgerTheGreat spits water across the room at hearing the dreaded name "Ruby"
01:54:58 <myu> i imagine lisp coding is similarly slow
01:55:05 <myu> ruby is very readable
01:55:21 <Razor-X> Forth is slow only because you start from machine-level up.
01:55:56 <myu> Razor-X: i'm talking about proper forth coding, no words longer than 2 lines, no using 'pick', etc ;)
01:56:03 <RodgerTheGreat> hey, if you like Ruby, good for you... All I'm saying is that I've wrapped my brain around a lot of esolangs, and ruby made me want to take an icepick to my skull.
01:56:29 <Razor-X> myu: And Forth does become a pain if you factor at more than 2 lines, IMO.
01:56:31 <myu> yeah, its from the machine-level up but i wonder why no programmers have really brought forth out of the lowlevel?
01:56:42 <Razor-X> Because it belongs in that arena.
01:56:56 <Razor-X> How many other languages can you play around interactively at the char and byte level?
01:57:11 <RodgerTheGreat> it'd be like asking why there aren't more interpreters for C.
01:57:17 <Razor-X> Quickly debug your driver code and rewrite it on the spot.
01:57:46 <Razor-X> Once you understand how to use a Lisp dialect correctly, you can code most things quickly. Especially because you can build your *own* abstractions instead of reading a 1000 page manual on monolothic ones.
01:57:52 <myu> fine, but forth is extendable, it can play in the HLL arena if it wants to
01:58:39 <myu> its essentially lisp, except postfix/stack-based instead of list-based :P
01:59:08 <myu> my friends complained about lisp requiring them to think recursively, but i just have to think backwards from my forth thinking
01:59:16 <Razor-X> Of course, Lisp and Forth suffer from one fatal flaw (IMO) -- over-diversification. With the power to create your own abstractions, you get a fairly watered down standard.
01:59:26 <myu> yeah thats a good point
01:59:28 <RodgerTheGreat> y'know- I've always wondered about this- what are the "atomic" primitives in LISP?
01:59:30 <Razor-X> Recursive thinking takes time to get into, at first.
01:59:42 <myu> RodgerTheGreat: car, cdr etc ?
02:00:23 <RodgerTheGreat> or does everything boil down to BF with a bunch of parentheses and lambda operators?
02:01:45 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: In Scheme, you have the integer, the character, and the procedure.
02:02:06 <Razor-X> Variables are syntactic sugar for procedures.
02:02:27 <Razor-X> Strings are part of the basic standard, but aren't considered primitive (but it is a disparate data-type, unlike C).
02:02:32 <RodgerTheGreat> well, what operators do you have access to at the lowest level?
02:03:14 <Razor-X> In a true from-scratch Lisp, you use combinator logic to create everything. Church numerals for numbers, etc.
02:03:45 <Razor-X> Of course, for purposes of speed, that's suicide.
02:04:28 <Razor-X> Well, that's not really an atom as much as the name for an atom.
02:04:49 <Razor-X> In Lisp, everything is either a symbol or a procedure. Hmmm, maybe that is a more adequate answer.
02:05:08 <RodgerTheGreat> that's why x86 CPU's all have math coprocessors integrally, rather than doing things like sines in software
02:05:13 <Razor-X> And you have the extra syntactic capability to bind procedures to symbols.
02:06:23 <Razor-X> (define blah 4) == (define blah (lambda () 4)), (define) syntactic extension for binding, blah -- a symbol, (lambda () 4) a procedure.
02:06:32 <Razor-X> That's variable assignment for you.
02:06:41 <Razor-X> Of course, it's different in CL, which is a lot more impure.
02:07:12 <oerjan> you mean (define (blah) 4) == (define blah (lambda () 4)))
02:09:15 <myu> i hear CL is a bastardization of the one true lisp and that all real lispers shouldn't be using CL
02:09:50 <Razor-X> Like Hindu-Pakistan, Taiwan-China, etc.
02:10:13 <oerjan> but scheme is even further from the original lisp than CL is
02:10:57 <RodgerTheGreat> I used a scheme interpreter to work through some beginning LISP tutorials.
02:11:14 <Razor-X> CL is more programmer-pragmatic, but Scheme compared to CL is a lot like C compared to C++. One is lean, but requires more work, the other is fat, but requires less.
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02:11:44 <RodgerTheGreat> and, interestingly enough, LOGO is actually very similar in structure to LISP proper, although the syntax looks different
02:11:49 <Razor-X> Scheme is more ``pure'' from the Lambda Calculus perspective.
02:12:16 <Razor-X> And then you have Haskell :)
02:12:38 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: Was my first ever programming language. Back when I went to a private school.
02:13:40 <Razor-X> 1-3rd grade, then I left. I came back, but they taught Pascal at that age.
02:14:27 <Razor-X> I and a group of friends one day sneakily copied 6th grader programs to our floppies, stole them home, and read over their source and learned a bunch of new stuff.
02:14:41 <RodgerTheGreat> argh. fucking public schools. My first experience with programming was in 6th grade when I found a macintosh version of QBASIC and tried punching in code from the back of my math book.
02:15:31 <RodgerTheGreat> they really *need* to be teaching kids languages like LOGO or BASIC in elementary school.
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02:19:36 <RodgerTheGreat> In a similar vein, I think we should take a note from advertising companies and drill things into people's brains from an extremely early age through repetition. F=Ma. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Sin(pi)=0, and so on. Comprehension can come later.
02:20:51 <RodgerTheGreat> we need to improve our use of the first few years of jello-like malleability in our children's minds.
02:21:22 <RodgerTheGreat> You can teach an old dog new tricks, but it's sure as hell easier to teach a puppy.
02:27:50 <RodgerTheGreat> apparently, I have killed this conversational thread. :/
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03:10:35 <lament> few words are as funny as 'nyet'.
03:10:48 <lament> i guess 'borscht' is another one.
03:11:45 <oerjan> isn't that borschtsch?
03:14:37 <oerjan> wikipedia says no, then yes (in german)
03:20:44 <xor> Razor-X: How does that "lisp from only lambda" work?
03:21:07 <xor> I've never understood that
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03:36:59 <SimonRC> C, IMO, is a great portable assembler.
03:37:41 <SimonRC> xor: Lambda can be abused in fun ways.
03:38:15 <SimonRC> define (CONS X Y) to be (LAMBDA (F) (F X Y))
03:38:36 <SimonRC> Then CAR = (LAMBDA (X Y) X) and CDR = (LAMBDA (X Y) Y)
03:38:43 <SimonRC> You see how that satisfies the requirements?
03:39:37 <xor> (LAMBDA (F) (F X Y))
03:39:38 <SimonRC> you knwo hoe LAMBDA works, right?
03:39:52 <SimonRC> well, F is the variable that is bound by that lambds
03:40:26 <xor> But that function takes one argument
03:40:29 <xor> cons takes 2
03:40:48 <SimonRC> I'm not defining CONS to be that
03:40:59 <SimonRC> I'm defining (CONS X Y) to be that
03:41:24 <SimonRC> Therefore CONS is (LAMBDA (X Y) (LAMBDA (F) (F X Y)))
03:42:18 <SimonRC> plus I fucked up the definitions of CAR and CDR
03:42:56 <SimonRC> CAR should be (LAMBDA (P) (P (LAMBDA (X Y) X)))
03:43:06 <SimonRC> and CDR should be (LAMBDA (P) (P (LAMBDA (X Y) Y)))
03:43:38 <xor> oh, so cons returns it's contents
03:43:42 <SimonRC> so you have (CAR (CONS A B)) = ((LAMBDA (X Y) X) A B) = A
03:44:01 <SimonRC> xor: no, cons returns a function that takes another function and applies it to its contents
03:44:55 <SimonRC> You represent any datastructure by a function that takes in another function and applies it to the members of the datastructure.
03:45:31 <SimonRC> This is a *more* powerful concept than most modern languages have.
03:46:18 <SimonRC> With lazy evaluation, it gives you properties for free, you just have to add them to the function that is created by the datastructure constructor.
03:46:55 <xor> but then it would be ((lambda (f) (f x y)) #'car)
03:47:03 <SimonRC> You also get algebraic data type pattern-matching for free. You just take in multiple functions to apply to the contents of the datastructure, rather than just one.
03:47:15 <SimonRC> xor: nonono, this is an L1, not an L2
03:49:01 <SimonRC> A datastructure is something capable of passing the data in it to a function that know what to do with that data.
03:49:52 <xor> ahhh, I understand
03:52:45 <xor> But how would you implement, for example, +
04:03:53 <SimonRC> you could make it primitive, or...
04:04:23 <SimonRC> we consider "data Nat = Zero | Succ Nat"
04:05:41 <SimonRC> "(ZERO) = (lambda (FZ FN) (FZ))" and "(SUCC N) = "(LAMBDA (FZ FN) (FN N))"
04:05:45 <SimonRC> things are easy from there
04:07:11 <SimonRC> if tyou want a more efficient representation, you can read "every number has at most two digits" by this guy I know: http://www-old.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~eb/
04:07:26 <SimonRC> xor: you see how the Haskell declaration works, right?
04:08:03 <SimonRC> A natural number is either zero or one more than anotehr natural number
04:08:31 <SimonRC> And you know a bit of Haskell, right?
04:08:55 <xor> A tiny bit
04:09:15 <SimonRC> Do you know what "data" does?
04:10:05 <xor> a function that takes Nat and returns Zero | Succ Nat ?
04:10:33 <SimonRC> I have no idea how to explain algebraic data types to you.
04:10:50 <SimonRC> do you know about C's "union" types?
04:11:28 <SimonRC> right, well you can consider "data" to declare something like a tagged union of structs.
04:12:55 <SimonRC> in this case, n item of type "Nat" is *like* the union of a stucture containing no fields (tagged "Zero") or a structure containing 1 field (tagged "Succ") and that field contains a "Nat".
04:13:52 <xor> So the number of links in this chain is the number it represents
04:14:24 <SimonRC> A natural number is either zero or one more than another natural number
04:14:44 <xor> but what about "(ZERO) = (lambda (FZ FN) (FZ))" and "(SUCC N) = "(LAMBDA (FZ FN) (FN N))"
04:16:00 <SimonRC> Well, since there are two possible types of contents for a Nat, the function that represents a Nat must take in two functions that say what to do in the two possible cases
04:16:29 <SimonRC> a nat here is of the form (LAMBDA (FZ FN) ...)
04:17:28 <SimonRC> To use a nat called N, you do the following call: (N <what-to-do-in-the-zero-case> <what-to-do-in-the-succ-case>)
04:18:15 <SimonRC> (remember that CONS only has one possible casem so a cons was a function that took one other function as an argument)
04:19:07 <SimonRC> but a nat takes two arguments that say what to do for the two possible cases of nat (zero and succ)
04:19:57 <xor> that's crazy
04:20:25 <SimonRC> It is a mechanical translation from Haskell. And it seem very elegant to me.
04:20:46 <xor> It's just something I've never seen before
04:21:31 <SimonRC> I haven;t really understood if before but it just clicked earlier today
04:21:51 <SimonRC> is it sticking in your head?
04:21:59 <SimonRC> or does it not quite stay?
04:22:33 <xor> I think it makes sense
04:23:59 <SimonRC> Good, I'll explain why zero and succ work. zero is a "constructor", i.e. a function that creates a nat. zero returns the nat that takes in the zero-case handler (FZ) and the succ-case handler (FN) and just calls the zero-case handler, right?
04:25:33 <SimonRC> and SUCC takes in the FZ and FN, then calls FN with a single argument: the number it is the Succ of.
04:25:53 <SimonRC> (Succ = Successor, i.e. the "next" number)
04:26:43 <SimonRC> so..., to construct plus...
04:27:12 <SimonRC> wecase-analyse the first argument
04:27:28 <xor> wecase-analyse?
04:28:22 <SimonRC> plus of zero and foo is equal to foo. plus of (succ of bar) and baz is the succ of (plauss of bar and baz)
04:29:01 <xor> I don't understand
04:29:30 <xor> What is this called?
04:29:45 <xor> no, this whole thing
04:30:22 <SimonRC> I have read about the basics of it and it is all clicking into place as we go along
04:30:46 <xor> Read what?
04:32:14 <xor> The term "lambda calculus" rings a bell
04:32:34 <SimonRC> this is a standard set of tricks for representing data in the lambda calculus
04:33:48 <SimonRC> Well, I remember being told in a simplified fasion that algebraic data types are equivalent to functions in the manner above, and that you can represent any data with complicated functions, and the ADT for Nat is a well-known thing, but the lambdas for NAt I just worked out off the top of my head
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04:34:48 <SimonRC> to continue... you know that 0 + foo = foo, and (1 + bar) + baz = 1 + (bar + baz), right?
04:45:56 <SimonRC> well, plus is a function of 2 arguments:
04:46:17 <SimonRC> It considers the two possible structures of the first argument first:
04:46:21 <SimonRC> plus of zero and foo is equal to foo
04:46:27 <SimonRC> plus of (succ of bar) and baz is the succ of (plauss of bar and baz)
04:48:11 <SimonRC> that is case-analysis of the first argument
04:49:06 <SimonRC> now, to do case analysis of an argument, we make a function that says what to do in each case, then pass all those functions to the value we are analysing.
04:50:53 <SimonRC> for example, to analyse a value (N) of type nat, we construct a function to say what to do in the zero case, and a function saying what to do in the succ case, and pass them to N
04:51:27 <xor> call N, right?
04:51:51 <SimonRC> the zero-case handler must be a function of 0 arguments that returns the result for the zero case
04:52:13 <SimonRC> and we know that if the first argument is zero, the result is just the second argument
04:52:52 <SimonRC> so, for (PLUS X Y), the zero-case handler is (LAMBDA () Y)
04:57:06 <SimonRC> and if the first argument is (SUCC N), the result is (SUCC (PLUS N Y))
04:57:28 <SimonRC> so the succ-case handler is (LAMBDA (N) (SUCC (PLUS N Y)))
04:59:16 <SimonRC> and putting these together:
05:00:11 <SimonRC> PLUS = (LAMBDA (X Y) (X (LAMBDA () Y) (LAMBDA (N) (SUCC (PLUS N Y)))))
05:01:31 <SimonRC> Do remember that I am discovering this as I chat to you, and my terminology is not standard.
05:01:41 <SimonRC> Of course, this might not be useful.
05:01:54 <xor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_numeral
05:02:52 <SimonRC> But it is really simple to do once you know Haskell reasonably well, as a nice-enough subset of Haskell has a 1-to-1 correspondance with it
05:02:55 <SimonRC> plus = (lambda (x y) (x (lambda () y) (lambda (n) (succ (plus n y)))))
05:02:58 <SimonRC> plus = \ x y -> case x of { Zero -> y ; Succ n -> Succ (plus x y) }
05:03:10 <SimonRC> (with extra spaces added to make it line up)
05:03:46 <SimonRC> well, I was definitely not teaching you church numerals
05:04:39 <SimonRC> I was teching you some other kind of numerals
05:06:14 <SimonRC> if, however CH is a church numeral, then "my" notation can be constructed thus: (CH SUCC ZERO)
05:06:50 <SimonRC> and the opposite conversion is:
05:08:37 <SimonRC> NAT-TO-CHURCH = (LAMBDA (N) (LAMBDA (F) (LAMBDA (X) (N (LAMBDA () X) (LAMBDA (M) (F (NAT-TO-CHURCH M))))))
05:09:11 <SimonRC> this is a bit nasty because church numerals are traditionally curried
05:09:15 <xor> That's a lot of lambdas
05:09:36 <xor> Well that was very interesting
05:10:08 <SimonRC> If, however, we use a version of LAMBDA that curries, and assume that function-calling curries too, we get:
05:10:43 <SimonRC> (arranged for comprehensibility not brevity)
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05:11:16 <SimonRC> NAT-TO-CHURCH = (LAMBDA (N) (LAMBDA (F X) (N (LAMBDA () X) (LAMBDA (M) F (NAT-TO-CHURCH M))))))
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05:24:02 <Razor-X> xor: Read on the basics of Lambda Calculus.
05:24:42 <Razor-X> Learn the basic combinators and take a look at the Church Numerals (or, if you understood the Lambda Calculus, you should be able to reason out the Church Numerals already (I did)).
05:27:14 <Razor-X> You can also be adventerous and implement Lambda Calculus in Lisp. You'll quickly see that, this way of dealing with Lisp is to Church's computational metaphor as BF is to Turing's computational method.
05:27:38 <Razor-X> (Unlambda and BF is a more apt comparison here.)
05:28:49 * SimonRC doesn't quite get that analogy.
05:29:08 <Razor-X> Well, BF is pretty close to Turing's infinite tape.
05:34:42 <xor> Razor-X: That's what I will do
05:35:20 <xor> But lambda calculus in lisp would be nothing
05:38:34 <SimonRC> I think that the lambda calculus interprets turing machines rather more efficiently than turing machines interpret the lambda calculus
05:38:48 <SimonRC> also, i have some idea of how to do the former sanely, but no the latter
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06:01:28 <Razor-X> That is true. And I have an idea about the former too.
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16:43:29 <sp3tt> It appears that it is impossible to write a brainfuck interpreter in LaTeX.
16:43:33 <sp3tt> String handling sucks.
16:48:43 <GregorR-L> I don't think LaTeX is TC, so of course not.
16:51:15 <GregorR-L> Either it's TC, and therefore you can write a BF interpreter in it, or it's not, so you can't (or at least can't write a complete one)
16:51:59 <sp3tt> Well, if the only package for string handling I can find doesn't work :/
16:54:21 <sp3tt> And if LaTeX wants to throw error messages that seem to be caused by something that doesn't exist...
16:54:42 <oerjan> to write a BF interpreter you need to be able to read string input. this has nothing to do with being turing complete, consider iota and jot.
16:57:04 <oerjan> it might be that the required command is in the underlying TeX and not documented in LaTeX.
16:57:08 <GregorR-L> Oh yes, this is true - what I was referring to is really BF minus ".,"
16:57:43 <sp3tt> . is simple, , is harder.
16:57:48 <oerjan> and i was referring to inputting the BF program itself.
16:57:52 <sp3tt> One could use ! to separate them.
17:05:05 <sp3tt> The program and the input that is.
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17:55:47 <oerjan> try TeX by Topic at http://www.eijkhout.net/tbt/. the chapter on token lists might be particularly useful.
17:57:09 <oerjan> from what the book says about the \read macro it might be hard to read input without matching brackets.
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18:01:12 <oerjan> maybe something with the character category codes i see mentioned can fix that.
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00:39:57 <RodgerTheGreat> hm. well, this is interesting. my pet betta is in the process of building a "bubble nest", presumably in preparation for nesting season.
00:41:30 * oerjan had to check wikipedia, and is somehow releaved that it is a fish and not a spider or something...
00:46:11 <RodgerTheGreat> they act a little like a combination of a shark and a goldfish.
00:46:56 <oerjan> should or should one not dip one's finger into the water?
00:47:40 <RodgerTheGreat> they don't really have teeth, so I don't see any serious harm, although they might try to ram you or decide to suck on your finger.
00:49:12 <oerjan> except in attitude? :)
01:02:58 <Razor-X> Like I said, I think a TeX preprocessor is best.
01:12:25 <oerjan> i _think_ it was in response to the last thing i said before logging off but i am not sure
01:14:14 <oerjan> it seems the problem is to somehow get a file input as a mere list of characters...
01:14:59 <oerjan> the \read macro nearly does that, i think.
01:15:48 <oerjan> i haven't paid attention to that project.
01:17:59 <RodgerTheGreat> so, there's work afoot to create a BF interpreter in LaTeX?
01:19:37 <Razor-X> And for me, a LaTeX preprocessor in Scheme.
01:21:26 <Razor-X> Because I'm tired of M-x calc when doing my labs.
01:21:58 <Razor-X> If I'm typing up the expression to show work anyways, might as well have something do some arithmetic and other handy things.
01:37:27 <RodgerTheGreat> is anyone here intimately familiar with 68k machinecode?
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02:14:56 <GreaseMonkey> LOGO death virus tutorial: http://www.rohitab.com/discuss/index.php?showtopic=20088
02:16:58 <GreaseMonkey> "'m sick of all the lame tutorials describing how you can use a virus to destroy your school computers using just batch commands. They suck, as they don't destroy anything. My virus simply pwnz all of yourz coz it is the best. It actually kills your teacher and all the students in the class. It not only kills them... it's so much better than that.... it actually burns them alive."
02:20:55 <GreaseMonkey> "and its not a virus...it doesnt spread" "Then the pen needs to become a turtles willy so it can improegnate dogs and cats and other turtles.
02:20:55 <GreaseMonkey> And instead of dropping petrol it will have to drop chloroform.
02:21:36 <RodgerTheGreat> well, I guess I'm going to have to pore over some manuals to get a handle on creating machinecode for the 'ol dragonball EZ...
02:23:17 <GreaseMonkey> or some LOGO code for the ol' "DON'T USE PEN DOWN!" turtle
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05:36:12 <xor> never heard of irc][
05:36:18 <xor> but irssi is decent
05:36:56 <xor> yeah, irssi is console
06:09:25 <xor> a C -> JVM compiler would be interesting
06:17:44 <xor> mips2java looks ugly
06:18:00 <xor> why would you do binary to java source code translation?
06:19:01 <Asztal> http://www.axiomsol.com/
06:29:30 <xor> GregorR-L: That adds yet another emulation layer to java
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13:02:15 <saik0> i need some directive plz
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17:08:08 <ihope_> What's UDP provide, again?
17:09:18 <lindi-> ihope_: unreliable connectionless protocol for your custom needs :)
17:09:35 <ihope_> Just like IP, except on top of IP?
17:10:48 <lindi-> ihope_: udp provides ports
17:11:32 <ihope_> So it does do something, at least?
17:11:38 <ihope_> How much overhead is there?
17:12:03 <Razor-X> The packets are not guaranteed to reach, and if they reach they are not guaranteed to arrive in a particular order.
17:12:19 <lindi-> ihope_: 8 bytes if i count correctly :)
17:12:24 <jix_> weren't quake or so using udp for position updates and tcp for things like shooting which shouldn't be missed?
17:12:57 <Razor-X> If you're on a reliable local network, you should be able to use UDP with little/no trouble.
17:12:58 <lindi-> ihope_: variable length
17:13:03 <lindi-> ihope_: you can decide
17:13:16 <Razor-X> Over the internet.... it depends completely upon how your packet is routed.
17:13:16 <lindi-> 65535 is maximum i think
17:13:26 <lindi-> since the counter is two bytes
17:13:27 <Razor-X> ihope_: Take a look at the UDP RFC.
17:14:10 <Razor-X> I still haven't finished SLUMTP. I think I'm going to implement it in a different language.
17:16:03 <Razor-X> Actually, it probably will be Java.
17:16:11 <Razor-X> Is there a significant difference between IO in Java 5 and earlier versions?
17:16:21 <Razor-X> Only because that means I have to download a newer version of Java :P
17:18:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm not extremely experienced with network communications in Java, but I'm familiar with all of Java's file I/O facilities.
17:19:45 <Razor-X> I was looking at the UDP abstraction. I like it.
17:20:00 <Razor-X> Easy to follow (for me), unlike other abstractions.
17:20:47 <RodgerTheGreat> In Java, if you can read a Javadoc, you can pretty easily learn how to use any part of the API
17:21:30 <Razor-X> I appreciate Java's likeness to C, even if that is a bit selfish.
17:21:32 <RodgerTheGreat> creating proper Javadoc comments can be a pain at times, but it's really worth it in the long run.
17:26:18 <RodgerTheGreat> if you're interested in the differences between 1.4.2 and 1.5, this page is a fairly complete listing: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/relnotes/features.html
17:38:52 <Razor-X> Yeah. That is one I noticed.
17:46:38 <lindi-> Razor-X: please avoid java 1.5 features if you want people to be able to use your program with free software
17:52:46 <lindi-> Razor-X: fortunately those will be available soon
17:53:07 <Razor-X> How's the movement to OSS Java going?
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18:30:52 <lindi-> RodgerTheGreat: there are four free java compilers and at least 10+ jvms
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18:31:38 <lindi-> yes it's one of those four
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18:52:40 <RodgerTheGreat> bbl people- I'm off to prepare my thanksgiving f00dz0rz.
18:55:03 <calamari> we had ours on Tuesday, so I'm pretty much just being lazy today
18:56:00 <GregorR> Just rescheduled Thanksgiving, eh :P
18:56:28 <GregorR> On the one hand, that's brilliant. On the other hand, how dare you insult our meaningless holiday?
18:57:14 <calamari> well, I could have says happy turkey day
18:57:41 <calamari> oh, my stepmother wants Linux for Christmas
18:58:09 <calamari> so now that'll be both my dad and stepmom.. the Linux infection is spreading :)
18:58:23 <calamari> and my grandma if he ever brings her computer down
18:58:51 <calamari> wow.. 20gb just in my home directory
19:01:40 <GregorR> I just backed up my home directory quite recently.
19:02:52 <lament> let me guess.. half porn, half pirated music?
19:03:28 <xor> ...and half pirated movies
19:03:32 * calamari is proud to report 0% porn %0 pirated on his hd
19:04:26 <calamari> I do need to go through some old floppies and clean off any pirated dos apps.. not that anyone cares anymore
19:05:26 <calamari> but I guess decss is illegal here in the us :(
19:05:26 <lament> i have about 80% pirated 5% porn
19:05:43 <lament> actually probably less since my photographs take up lots of space nowadays
19:05:59 <calamari> Linux eliminates most of the need for pirated apps
19:06:29 <lament> by not being able to run them, yes.
19:06:31 <xor> hmmm 50% porn and 45% pirated
19:06:34 <lament> But I do want Photoshop
19:07:03 <calamari> the gimp does everything I need it to
19:07:13 <xor> I hate the gimp
19:07:42 <xor> I dunno I just can't use it
19:08:02 <calamari> I didn't like that .. but figured out how to consolidate them all into one
19:08:21 <lament> the gimp doesn't do everything i need it to
19:08:33 <lament> or maybe it does, i never bothered to figure it out
19:08:42 <lament> which is my main problem with it
19:08:43 <xor> meh, maybe I'm just not a photo editing kinda guy
19:08:53 <lament> and, of course, it doesn't have NeatImage (which i had to pirate separately...)
19:09:02 <lament> xor: maybe you just aren't
19:09:02 <calamari> does photoshop run under wine?
19:09:16 <xor> calamari: with some hackery
19:09:38 <lament> photoshop is almost indispensable for photo editing
19:10:00 <calamari> I used to like paint shop pro, but then they screwed it all up
19:10:40 <calamari> I bought it anyways because I was way past my 30 day trial period on version 4
19:11:02 <lament> it would be nice to have a simple free editor that would do the things i usually use photoshop for
19:11:55 <lament> but then still there would be occasions when that's not enough
19:13:25 <calamari> hmm, apparetly I have the wrong set of initials there
19:13:48 <lament> http://gallery.z3.ca/d/13143-1/poles.jpg
19:14:20 <lament> dunno if i'd be bothered to do that in gimp
19:14:36 <calamari> do you have a color version of that?
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19:16:48 <lament> burn the wooden poles, levels, convert to black and white using mostly the red channel, some more levels, unsharp mask
19:17:25 <lament> er, actually probably the blue channel
19:18:22 <calamari> has all sorts of crazy channel splitting and joining stuff actually
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19:36:55 <nooga> above program takes a and h from input and writes a/2*h to the output... it's in my new lang
19:37:32 <lament> your language looks quite a lot like befunge.
19:37:54 <nooga> not 2d and not stack based :>
19:49:19 <GreaseMonkey> a=getch();h=getch();putch(a>>1*h); // That'll be me for now
19:49:49 <GreaseMonkey> a!2=getch();h!2=getch();putch(a>>1*h); /* Better */
19:50:24 <GreaseMonkey> char a,h;a=getch();h=getch();putch(a>>1*h); // Fixed
19:50:44 <GreaseMonkey> a!1=getch();h!1=getch();putch(a>>1*h); /* Fixed */
19:52:08 <GreaseMonkey> why 32-bit P-mode ASM is so much better than 16-bit R-mode ASM: MOV eax,[edx]; MOV ecx,[eax];
19:53:03 <lindi-> GreaseMonkey: eflags too? ;)
19:54:13 <GreaseMonkey> with my design for a RISC architecture (which supports 64 instructions but only has 20 so far :D) you can read and write the flags register *directly*
19:55:09 <GreaseMonkey> however, in Z80 ASM: PUSH hl; PUSH af; POP hl; LD l,00h; PUSH hl; POP af; POP hl;
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20:03:33 <nooga> hvordan star det til?
20:05:13 <nooga> hm... i dunno what rusler means :D
20:06:03 <oerjan> walks slowly and aimlessly
20:06:46 <oerjan> the whole phrase means just about "nothing much"
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21:42:11 <oerjan> impossible, nooga here polish the is
21:42:54 <nooga> my host is a perl program :D
21:42:58 <nooga> ip-50.net-41.rev.inter-c.pl
21:43:58 <oerjan> you're lucky, my host is NO program. :(
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21:52:34 <lament> you guys are both lucky, i'm .NET :|
21:57:00 <Asztal> Apparently my host still uses DOS
21:57:37 <Asztal> Bleh, it isn't showing my hostname. But it's a .com.
21:57:51 <lament> it is showing your hostname.
21:58:14 <Asztal> oh. when I hover my mouse over the text it shows my IP instead :)
21:58:44 <Asztal> and now that I've whoised myself, when I hover, it shows my hostname.. :D
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00:42:24 <Asztal> I'd rather .NET than perl ;)
00:42:42 <oerjan> i am obliged to warn you that this whole channel is in fact .NET too.
00:42:43 <Asztal> I'd rather CLR than Perl
00:43:05 <Razor-X> Think carefully my friend. CLR is horribly bloated. Perl is not.
00:43:18 <Asztal> and Perl is horribly fugly.
00:43:54 <Razor-X> C isn't horribly bloated. It's horribly fugly.
00:43:57 <Asztal> There's plenty of languages other than C on the CLR, you know :)
00:44:08 <Razor-X> Scheme beats 'em all, and then some.
00:44:24 <Asztal> actually, I'd have to say I prefer ruby, but I don't think there's a .rb ccTLD :(
00:44:42 <Asztal> C-like languages, sorry ;)
00:45:37 <Razor-X> Where's Scheme?! Bah! Where's Forth?!
00:45:51 <Asztal> You know you like COBOL.NET
00:46:07 * Asztal wonders if you can use it with managed Direct X
00:46:14 <Razor-X> I don't have Mono on this box.
00:46:28 <Razor-X> Talk about commercial and nonportable.
00:47:12 <Asztal> I suppose that's true. But somehow I still prefer it to OpenGL ;)
00:47:13 <oerjan> there is F#, which is an Ocaml clone
00:47:30 <lament> activex is somewhat of a non-issue
00:47:37 <lament> it doesn't even run in my OS
00:47:44 <lament> i don't have to care about museum software
00:48:19 <Razor-X> Asztal: Then your code stays on your platform.
00:48:46 <Razor-X> While Mac OS X and *Nix can share.
00:49:14 <Razor-X> OCaML's syntax looks god-awful.
00:49:31 <Asztal> But I tend to (try to) write them so they're more or less API-independant
00:49:32 <Razor-X> You would think S-expressions look bad, but OCaML is just *shudder*
00:50:21 <Razor-X> I'm no game programmer. Although I've been feeling like playing around with OpenGL in Scheme some time for the heck of it.
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08:43:47 <Razor-X> An ever shorter Forth quine:
08:45:47 <GreaseMonkey> damn, can't send blanks with a /raw command either :(
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12:07:44 <ka_1900> can any one plz tell me what is going on with this code !?
12:07:46 <ka_1900> http://pfo.pastebin.com/831922
12:08:13 <ka_1900> it is supposed to print a number ,.bt it prints another totally different number
12:29:02 <Asztal> that's undefined behaviour
12:29:39 <Asztal> the compiler is free to do whatever it likes
12:30:28 <ka_1900> no there is a logic behind this ,.
12:31:45 <Asztal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequence_point
12:32:37 <Asztal> you have to remember that function arguments can be evaluated in any order
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16:05:09 <ka_1900> this logic i sent u b4 is making me crazy
16:15:03 <RodgerTheGreat> there's an easy way to fix it- don't do multiple pre- and post- increments on the same variable in a function call
16:15:37 <RodgerTheGreat> just replace ++x with (x+1) and so on- then your code will function how you expect it to.
16:16:46 <ka_1900> the problem is nt in the wrong answer ,. the problem i have to solve ,. is why it is doing so ,. btw this is the right code
16:16:50 <ka_1900> http://pastebin.com/831918
16:20:14 <RodgerTheGreat> it's like Asztal said- function arguments can be evaluated in any order, and several of your arguments change the value of X.
16:21:01 <ka_1900> can we make it step by step together ???
16:22:06 <RodgerTheGreat> is nothing to go through step-by-step- you can effectively assume that the arguments you pass to your function are evaluated randomly, because it's undefined behavior
16:22:30 <ka_1900> int x = 5 ; printf("%d%d%d%d%d", x++, ++x, x, ++x, x++) ;
16:22:48 <ka_1900> the first printf should print 5
16:23:41 <ka_1900> and the second and third printf should print 7 ? right ?
16:23:46 <RodgerTheGreat> function arguments aren't necessarily evaluated from left to right, that's what I'm trying to get through to you.
16:23:58 <ka_1900> and the last ++x and x++ should print 8 ,
16:24:29 <ka_1900> but the calculation is done left to right and printed right to left ,. why ?!
16:24:48 <ka_1900> i mean the calculation gives 57788
16:25:50 <jix> but the calculation is done left to right and printed right to left ,. why ?! << it isn't done from left to right
16:26:21 <RodgerTheGreat> it's obviously being done right to left in this case, and it'd probably do something else on a different compiler.
16:27:11 <ka_1900> no there is nothing called undefiend behaviour ,. our proffessor told us it has a logic and we have to find out why
16:27:32 <jix> than read the c standard
16:28:26 <jix> and professors can be wrong
16:29:14 <RodgerTheGreat> whenever a function call is made with arguments that are expressions (x+5, x--, etc) they have to be evaluated before the actual function operates on these values (at an abstract level). The order in which arguments are evaluated is compiler-defined.
16:30:09 <RodgerTheGreat> the actual time at which the statements are evaluated in machinecode is determined by the compiler, which is *why* it's compiler-defined
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16:31:21 <ka_1900> so the answer that this is undefined behavioud
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20:06:19 <jix> i have a very cool idea for a new esolang!
20:06:50 <jix> nah doesn't work
20:07:01 <jix> i was lying i just wanted to test a script and needed people to talk
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20:51:15 <fizzie> You can't assume that arguments are evaluated randomly, because it's undefined behaviour; you must assume that _anything_ can happen, including the computer exploding.
20:51:25 <fizzie> It doesn't necessary evaluate any arguments at all.
20:52:06 <fizzie> (To answer the conversation that was here over four hours ago.)
20:52:59 <fizzie> (It's undefined behaviour since it modifies x multiple times between sequence points.)
20:56:36 <fizzie> Actual evaluation order is implementation-defined, but that's another issue. printf("%d%d\n", printf("foo\n"), printf("bar\n")); does not have any undefined behaviour, but what it prints is implementation-defined. It must be "foo\nbar\n44\n" or "bar\nfoo\n44\n", though. (Barring any IO errors or such.)
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21:25:49 <RodgerTheGreat> fizzie: yeah, true. I was just trying to explain things simply
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00:14:53 <Asztal> Didn't old versions of GCC used to start playing the towers of hanoi if you encountered certain undefined behaviour?
00:15:40 <RodgerTheGreat> it's mentioned here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undefined_behavior
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04:35:23 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: What's the Java equivalent of a struct?
04:45:46 <RodgerTheGreat> Razor-X: I'm pretty sure you'd just use a container class- just make a class that has the variables you need, possibly a constructor and (if you want to use information-hiding principles) a collection of getters/setters
04:47:15 <GreaseMonkey> Razor-X: Wtf are you doing programming in *java* anyway?!
04:47:30 <Razor-X> GreaseMonkey: Cross portability, high level (moreso than C).
04:47:43 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: Well, I'd know if it was a general purpose struct, but I need to use the struct's properties of named byte fields.
04:48:08 <Razor-X> I basically need some sort of container for bytes that can be fed to an output port serially.
04:49:11 <RodgerTheGreat> hrm.. well, I may have a weak understanding of the capabilities of structs (I am not a C coder), but you might be able to use chars
04:49:50 <Razor-X> A struct is really simple. It's a chunk of contiguous memory containing the variables of choice.
04:50:47 <GreaseMonkey> and higher frustration, and higher chance of getting sacked.
04:50:50 <Razor-X> GreaseMonkey: If this was time critical, I'd do it in C.
04:50:56 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah, I always thought of it as serving the same function as container classes, only less OO overhead when you don't need it
04:51:02 <Razor-X> It's a concept test, which I prefer to do in an easier environment.
04:52:05 <Razor-X> struct point { int x; int y; } has a size of 2 ints (2*sizeof(int)). The way I'm using structs here though is telling a function to send a struct of size sizeof(struct blah), so that the bytes stay in order.
04:53:17 <Razor-X> This is why I was initially reluctant to do this in a higher-level language, because it does get pretty low-level in places.
04:53:42 <Razor-X> But managing timeouts in C is a *pain*.
04:57:26 <Razor-X> Do I have to use an array of bytes ? I wanted something named, so...
04:58:44 <Razor-X> Forth's as low as I (like to regularly) go, sorry.
05:00:52 <GreaseMonkey> i still prefer C to anything else except for when it's being a pain in the ass
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05:04:11 <Razor-X> I can't even believe I coded before I learned Lisp.
05:04:17 <Razor-X> It was like, an enlightenment.
05:04:22 <calamari> had to go to 5 stores to find a halfway decent kitchen apron for my wife, and then it was $20
05:04:26 <Razor-X> RodgerTheGreat: CharSequences are what I need, no?
05:05:36 <Razor-X> No, I mean a CharSequence.
05:06:08 <Razor-X> It seems to be the low-level mechanism behind Strings.
05:06:29 <Razor-X> Oh... but it's read-only :(
05:06:38 <GreaseMonkey> Razor-X: MOV $2000,Razor-X; ADD $2000,UserSuggestions; MOV ($2000),LearnARealLanguage
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05:51:05 <xor> Am I the only one here who actually likes c?
05:53:48 <notCakeProphet> Oh sure it's machine efficient... but it sucks at human efficiency.
05:54:24 <xor> Lets you be creative
05:55:15 <GregorR> My ideal world has C as an intermediary language used by compilers. Takes a lot of strain off of writing compilers (for higher-level languages) without diminishing efficiency to any significant degree.
05:55:47 <xor> Yeah, compiling to asm for a new language is stupid
05:56:03 <GregorR> C is very nice because nothing is black-box.
05:56:13 <GregorR> It's an easy transform from the language to machine code.
05:56:18 <GregorR> You can mentally compile everything.
05:56:29 <GregorR> Unlike Java, where EVERYTHING is black-box.
05:56:40 <GregorR> (A GPL'd black box now, yes, but still fairly opaque ;) )
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07:13:58 <Razor-X> That I definitely agree with.
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07:22:10 <Razor-X> Forth is even better though. No type checking.
07:23:01 <Razor-X> Want to make a character out of a cell? Forth doesen't care, it'll just use the least significant byte.
07:24:02 <Razor-X> Double precision integers, for example, take up two stack positions and need special words to modify.
07:24:20 <Razor-X> You could, unwarily, use a double precision integer as two normal integers.
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21:53:02 <ihope> Actually, I read from left to right.
21:57:57 <ihope> lol idot its wen u putwords in ur hed
22:01:40 <Asztal> wow... I had an issue with my befunge interpreter going into an infinite loop, and it turns out that someone else's interpreter does the exact same thing
22:02:12 <Asztal> Caused by a # at the edge of a program, but I'm sure it's caused by something far more sinister
22:02:40 <RodgerTheGreat> well, at least it proves you aren't the first one to make that mistake
22:03:13 <Asztal> I think it's a different mistake with the same result, because theirs does it in befunge-93 mode too :)
22:03:17 <RodgerTheGreat> are you sure that #'s at the edge of a program aren't defined by the standard to infinite loop? :)
22:03:26 <Asztal> mine is ... something to do with wrapping
22:21:44 <Razor-X> GregorR: Does D have a good socket library?
22:22:50 <Razor-X> No, not the C FFI. No. No.
22:23:06 <Razor-X> (Uggh. Managing 30 structs gets tiring quickly.)
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22:41:02 <Asztal> I don't know how my cube intersection function ever worked, but it's fixed now
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23:11:42 <GregorR> Razor-X: It has std.socketstream, which (shockingly) treats sockets as streams. Very easy to use.
23:25:01 <xor> this sepperation of functions and variables in common lisp is really getting on my nerves
23:27:58 <xor> no, i don't want to do (funcall x ...), i just want to do (x ...)
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23:34:26 <ihope> Not that I've done much with it.
23:35:01 <xor> i'm reading _ai programming, case studies in lisp_
23:49:20 <SimonRC> Does anoyone know of a language with a for-each type loop that can express zipping? I found the lack of one very irritating in C#.
23:50:00 <xor> haha (gps '(unknown poor) '(rich famous))
23:50:05 <SimonRC> Heh, KoL has a basic test of English grammar and spelling before you are allowed to use the chat feature.
23:51:11 <oerjan> i believe the ghc compiler for haskell has an extension to the list comprehension syntax called parallel, which is essentially zipping.
23:51:30 <xor> zip([1,2],[3,4]) == [[1,3],[2,4]], right?
23:51:53 <oerjan> i.e. [(x,y) | x <- m | y <- l] = zip m l
23:52:28 <SimonRC> I was thinking mostly but not only of languages like Java or C#.
23:52:45 <oerjan> of course haskell also has the zipBy high-level function.
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23:54:37 <oerjan> oh, right. i've made that mistake before.
23:55:01 <oerjan> there are some other "genericized" functions that use the By suffix, i believe.
23:56:21 <SimonRC> They take an argument that specifies equality/comparison criteria.
23:57:09 <oerjan> although you could probably make one in Java.
23:59:42 <SimonRC> You are suggesting that I can *make* a new control structure in Java?
00:00:03 <oerjan> something like zipWith. it would probably be more verbose (like most things Java)
00:00:16 <oerjan> let me check on Scala.
00:00:20 <xor> what does zipWith do?
00:02:08 <oerjan> zipWith f (x1:l1) (y2:l2) = (f x1 x2) : zipWith f l1 l2
00:03:53 <ihope> More like zipWith f _ _ = []
00:04:27 <xor> so like mapcar
00:04:39 <oerjan> no, mapcar is map in haskell
00:05:04 <oerjan> oh, right, mapcar doesn't have fixed number of arguments
00:05:16 <xor> zipWith + [1,2] [3,4] => [4,6] right?
00:05:27 <oerjan> so mapcar corresponds to map, zipWith, zip3With, etc.
00:05:43 <xor> (mapcar #'+ '(1 2) '(3 4)) => (4,6)
00:06:05 <oerjan> actually, zipWith (+) [1,2] [3,4]
00:06:35 <xor> meh, I don't actually know haskell
00:06:36 <oerjan> otherwise it would try to add zipWith to [1,2] [3,4]
00:07:07 <oerjan> which would give a type error
00:07:37 <oerjan> well, you seemed to understand the zipWith definition
00:07:57 <xor> That's obvious
00:14:45 <oerjan> hm, Scala for comprehension seem based on haskell list comprehensions, but without the parallel extension
00:20:21 <Razor-X> GregorR: Can it work with timeouts and unconnected sockets?
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00:25:22 <GregorR> Razor-X: I haven't extensively used sockets in D, so you'd have to ask somebody more knowledgeable.
00:25:58 <Razor-X> I hate you GregorR! Now I'm gonna have to cut myself!
00:28:09 <oerjan> ah, i found something in the Python tutorial:
00:28:23 <oerjan> >>> for q, a in zip(questions, answers):
00:28:58 <oerjan> so while you need to use the zip function, it can itself be inserted easily in for statements.
00:29:08 <Razor-X> Mmmf. The sockets interface needs to be cleaner.
00:30:19 <oerjan> http://docs.python.org/tut/node7.html#SECTION007600000000000000000
00:32:50 <oerjan> i suspect you can do similar things in Scala, too, since Scala has pattern matching and higher order functions.
00:33:16 <oerjan> (I am mentioning Scala because it is somewhat Java-based)
00:35:24 <oerjan> razor-x: reading the logs, i am thinking about a cheat for your structs
00:36:03 <oerjan> you could use a class containing static final integer variables for your offsets, plus an array
00:36:54 <oerjan> and of course whatever utility methods you consider convenient
00:37:15 <oerjan> (the array should not be static, of course)
00:37:41 <Razor-X> That was what I was planning to do though.
00:38:00 <Razor-X> Create a class and name the fields as fixed offsets in an internal byte[] .
00:38:11 <Razor-X> Either that, or continue wading through struct hell in C.
00:38:57 <Razor-X> But I do appreciate a struct's ability to be pointed at a blob of data and name the fields.
00:39:39 <Razor-X> Mmmf. Too much time with Scheme. I'm rusty on my imperative code.
01:19:14 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
01:26:24 * ihope offers some soap to GreaseMonkey
01:26:46 <ihope> Wait, are you that matrix eating guy?
01:37:38 <GreaseMonkey> MOV eax, Pie - sets the register EAX to the constant Pie
01:37:54 <GreaseMonkey> CALL eat - calls the function at the label "eat"
01:41:06 <GreaseMonkey> i don't know how the LOOP instruction works in 32-bit mode
02:03:04 <xor> te he he, memoization
02:05:33 <Razor-X> GreaseMonkey: You're using Intel syntax, you know.
02:11:09 <GreaseMonkey> i've come up with an XOR gate in WireWorld that looks like it says XOR
02:19:26 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
02:19:28 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
02:20:18 <EgoBot> 102 ++++++++++++++[>+++++>++++++++>+++++++>+++++++<<<<-]>----.>++.>>-.++++++++.+++++.<++++.<+++.>---.>---. [160]
02:24:46 <EgoBot> bf/, glass/, linguine/
02:44:21 <oerjan> !daemon cat bf +[,.[-]+]
02:45:44 <EgoBot> 1 oerjan: daemon cat bf
02:47:28 <oerjan> If the daemons are reloaded at all they are reloaded when EgoBot starts up, I believe.
02:47:55 <Razor-X> Let's see how good I am with this OOP thingamabobber.
02:49:10 <oerjan> i believe so, although the first [-] is redundant if this is the whole program.
02:49:29 <oerjan> !bf [-]>+[>,.]<[<]>[.>]
02:51:04 <GreaseMonkey> actually, for the cat one, shouldn't that be: +[,.] ?
02:51:12 <oerjan> that's weird, i thought it would repeat the message twice
02:51:46 <oerjan> i added the [-]+ to ensure it doesn't stop at eof
02:52:00 <oerjan> hm, that may not actually make sense.
02:52:10 <Razor-X> I don't think EgoBot sends an eof ever.
02:52:13 <oerjan> i mean on NUL, although they are probably the same.
02:52:29 <oerjan> no, that would stop on \255
02:52:35 <Razor-X> Yeah. How many people send NULs over IRC?
02:53:21 <Razor-X> Actually, the end of a string on t3h intarweb is CR-LF.
02:53:31 <oerjan> although that could be avoid by using bf16 rather than bf8, i think
02:53:50 <EgoBot> 1 oerjan: daemon cat bf
02:55:52 <oerjan> now why didn't [-]>+[>,.]<[<]>[.>] work? maybe it just didn't show up because EgoBot only gives one line of output
02:56:43 <oerjan> oh, i thought you were doing it on purpose
02:57:43 <GreaseMonkey> !daemon act bf8 [-]>+[[>.]<[<]+.->[.>]+.-<[<]>+]
02:57:53 <oerjan> and that it should print it twice, which it strangely didn't
02:59:06 <oerjan> now you have no , in there
02:59:55 <oerjan> did we kill EgoBot again?
03:00:16 <GreaseMonkey> !daemon ctcp bf8 [-]>+[[>,]<[<]+.->[.>]+.-<[<]>+]
03:01:11 <oerjan> i think EgoBot is dead, the error in the act daemon caused it to produce an infinite number of NULs
03:02:10 <oerjan> that's the problem, if it crashed properly it would reload but it seems to be hanging
03:05:00 <Razor-X> Lucky people. All I've gotten to done is crash EgoBot.
03:05:10 <oerjan> actually it probably doesn't print just NULs but it does make approx 256*4 chars output
03:18:38 <GreaseMonkey> http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/thumb/6/6c/Bass_player.JPG/250px-Bass_player.JPG
03:18:45 <GreaseMonkey> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Image:Bass_player.JPG
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03:32:09 <RodgerTheGreat> I find this tremendously entertaining: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yeldaBkyxo&mode=related&search=
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03:55:26 <GreaseMonkey> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Classic_homecomputer_games
04:04:15 <GreaseMonkey> updated my userpage: http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/User:Thematrixeatsyou
04:05:01 <RodgerTheGreat> aw. the main article for BF isn't a valid program. :'(
04:09:01 <GreaseMonkey> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Image:FeatBrainFuck.png
04:10:08 <RodgerTheGreat> well, that image pretty much makes sense, because it uses every symbol once
04:11:34 <RodgerTheGreat> I kinda get the impression that the Brainfuck article wasn't made by people that actually knew how to code in it
04:11:44 <xor> GreaseMonkey highlighted meeeeeeeeeeee
04:13:41 <xor> <GreaseMonkey> i've come up with an XOR gate in WireWorld that looks like it says XOR
04:16:16 <xor> what's wireworld?
04:18:02 <RodgerTheGreat> if you think of wire as traversible space and electron heads and tails as particles, it's pretty easy to see it as a particle automaton, although cellular automaton is equally valid
04:18:05 <GreaseMonkey> 3 = wire -(if 1 or 2 electrons neighbouuring)-> electron (1)
04:19:44 <GreaseMonkey> the left side is input (the ones spawning off the +)
04:20:16 <GreaseMonkey> if you put an electron on the top input and then one cycle later put an electron on the bottom input it screws up
04:21:55 <GreaseMonkey> Roger: i should challenge you to making a wireworld trainset
04:26:51 <GreaseMonkey> it can spawn more electrons if you need it to, but you must have a main electron going at all times
04:26:54 <RodgerTheGreat> my favorite part of the Basic interpreter article is this section:
04:35:07 <RodgerTheGreat> tomorrow's goal: revising the Uncyclopedia BF article in order to create a delightful combination of humor and factual accuracy! (all in pure BF, naturally)
04:35:57 <xor> put in bf code to generate a real article
04:36:39 <GreaseMonkey> perhaps the brevity article, encrypted? or the stub article, perhaps?
04:36:44 <RodgerTheGreat> I was going to do things like creating an accurate explanation of how BF works IN BF, etc
04:38:09 <xor> one big !bf_txtgen
04:38:10 <RodgerTheGreat> and it wouldn't be that rewarding to people that bother to decode it
04:38:39 <RodgerTheGreat> I'll draft the plaintext version tonight, and convert and post it tomorrow
04:41:11 <GreaseMonkey> with just a t-junction and a reverser, i can get something quite interesting :D
04:42:00 -!- GreaseMonkey has changed nick to AFKMonkey.
04:42:13 <xor> !bf_textgen hi
04:43:04 <xor> where's EgoBot ?
04:43:21 <oerjan> we killed it a while ago
04:43:35 * oerjan points at GreaseMonkey
04:44:07 <oerjan> rather impressively, too, it hung instead of crashing and reloading
04:45:27 <RodgerTheGreat> gregor is probably going to kill someone. I'll make sure we have plenty of gauze and duct-tape in the first-aid cabinet.
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07:16:28 <dbc> B'dar b'dee b'doo b'dah.
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07:44:16 -!- encoded has set topic: Read the principia discordia!.
07:45:39 -!- bsmntbombdood has set topic: the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - for brainfuck-specific discussion, go to ##brainfuck - http://esolangs.org/wiki/Adjudicated_Blind_Collaborative_Design_Esolang_Factory.
07:48:18 <encoded> i thought this chan was about philosofy
07:48:30 <encoded> http://www.rabbithole.cc/cold.jpg
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07:50:37 <bsmntbombdood> !bf_textgen Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Logs of previous discussions are available at http://meme.b9.com/clog/esoteric/?M=D
07:50:49 <bsmntbombdood> !bf_txtgen Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Logs of previous discussions are available at http://meme.b9.com/clog/esoteric/?M=D
07:50:49 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
07:50:51 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
07:51:07 <EgoBot> 2 bsmntbombdood: bf_txtgen
07:54:53 <EgoBot> PRIVMSG bsmntbombdood i wanna feel your body breaking... wanna feel your body breaking... and shaking... and left in the cold...
07:55:37 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
07:55:39 <EgoBot> 2 bsmntbombdood: bf_txtgen
07:55:41 <EgoBot> 3 GreaseMonkey: bf_txtgen
07:55:43 <EgoBot> 4 GreaseMonkey: daemon orly bf
07:56:41 <GreaseMonkey> now for "daemon act bf8 [-]>+[[>.]<[<]+.->[.>]+.-<[<]>+]"
07:56:55 <EgoBot> i love you bsmntbombdood
07:57:05 <GreaseMonkey> that was a frikkin disaster... did GregorR reset it?
07:57:25 <EgoBot> i love you GreaseMonkey
07:58:31 <EgoBot> i love you a lot GreaseMonkey
07:59:01 <EgoBot> let's have an orgy in #esoteric
07:59:54 <EgoBot> 1419 +++++++++++[>+++>+++>++++++++>++++++++++<<<<-]>>>-.++++++++++++++.+++++++.---------.++++++++++++.>-.--------.<<-.>>+++++++++++++++.<.<.>>.<<++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>----------.<<-.>>.>-.----.+++++.<.>--.<<+.>--.<<.>>>--.++.---.<++++.<+++++++++.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>>--.<<-----.>>
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08:01:00 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
08:01:04 <EgoBot> 3 GreaseMonkey: bf_txtgen
08:01:06 <EgoBot> 4 bsmntbombdood: daemon cat bf
08:02:44 <bsmntbombdood> !bf_txtgen Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered weak and weary, Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore, While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping, As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. `'Tis some visitor,' I muttered, `tapping at my chamber door - Only this, and nothing more.'
08:04:18 <GreaseMonkey> !daemon ctcp bf8 ---------[++++++++++.,----------]+.
08:04:44 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
08:04:46 <EgoBot> 2 bsmntbombdood: bf_txtgen
08:04:50 <EgoBot> 4 bsmntbombdood: daemon cat bf
08:06:32 <GreaseMonkey> !daemon ctcp bf8 +[----------[++++++++++,----------]+.]
08:07:18 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
08:07:20 <EgoBot> 2 bsmntbombdood: bf_txtgen
08:07:22 <EgoBot> 3 GreaseMonkey: daemon ctcp bf8
08:07:24 <EgoBot> 4 bsmntbombdood: daemon cat bf
08:08:09 <GreaseMonkey> !daemon ctcp bf8 +[----------[++++++++++,----------]+.++++++++++++.---.---------]
08:08:59 <GreaseMonkey> !daemon ctcp bf8 +[----------[++++++++++.,----------]+.++++++++++++.---.---------]
08:09:10 <EgoBot> <CTCP>ACTION proclaims that GreaseMonkey is 1337<CTCP>
08:09:24 <EgoBot> <CTCP>ACTION likes this<CTCP>
08:10:24 -!- cmeme has quit ("Client terminated by server").
08:10:27 <GreaseMonkey> !daemon ctcp bf8 +[----------[++++++++++.,----------]+.++++++++++++.---.---------]
08:10:39 <EgoBot> <CTCP>ACTION is being tested<CTCP>
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08:11:45 <GreaseMonkey> !daemon ctcp bf8 +[[-]---------[++++++++++.,----------]+.]
08:12:24 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
08:12:26 <EgoBot> 2 bsmntbombdood: bf_txtgen
08:12:28 <EgoBot> 3 GreaseMonkey: daemon ctcp bf8
08:12:30 <EgoBot> 4 bsmntbombdood: daemon cat bf
08:13:26 * EgoBot is being tested<CTCP><CTCP>ACTION is hungry<CTCP><CTCP>ACTION won't work :(<CTCP>
08:13:45 <GreaseMonkey> !daemon ctcp bf8 ---------[++++++++++.,----------]+.
08:14:12 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
08:14:14 <EgoBot> 2 bsmntbombdood: bf_txtgen
08:14:18 <EgoBot> 4 bsmntbombdood: daemon cat bf
08:14:47 <GreaseMonkey> !daemon ctcp bf8 ---------[++++++++++.,----------]+.+++++++++.
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08:15:18 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon cat reload
08:15:20 <EgoBot> 2 bsmntbombdood: bf_txtgen
08:15:25 <EgoBot> 4 bsmntbombdood: daemon cat bf
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08:16:17 <GreaseMonkey> !daemon ctcp bf8 [[-]---------[++++++++++.,----------]+.+++++++++.,[-]+]
08:16:17 -!- cmeme has joined.
08:18:30 <GreaseMonkey> note the userbox: http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/User:Thematrixeatsyou
08:20:12 <GreaseMonkey> oh, and the bf_txtgen has a limit to how big the string is
08:25:07 <GreaseMonkey> anyways, who's keen for a wireworld challenge? build a train set in wireworld :D
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18:16:23 <bsmntbombdood> !bf_txtgen Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered weak and weary, Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore
18:20:18 <EgoBot> 1178 ++++++++++[>+++>+++++++++++>++++++++>++++++++++++<<<<-]>>>-.<.>++++++++++++++++++++.++.<<++.>>>---.<<++.-.-.<.>>----.<<.>>>--------.----.<+++.++++++++++.<-----.>>--.+.<<+++++++++++.<.>----------------.>++++.<+.----.>.+++++++.<<++++++++++++.------------.>>--.>.+.+++.<<++++.<.>----------------------------.<.>>-------.<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
18:26:27 <bsmntbombdood> !bf_txtgen While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping, As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. `'Tis some visitor,' I muttered, `tapping at my chamber door - Only this, and nothing more.'
18:33:25 <EgoBot> 2325 +++++++++++++[>+++>+++++++>++>++++++++<<<<-]>>----.>>.+.+++.-------.<++++++.<--------------.>.>+++++++++.+.-----------..+.-.<<<+++++.------------.>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.----.<++++.------.+++++++++++++.<.>-----------.>>---.<+++++++++++++++.>+++++++++++++++.<-------.+++++.-------.<<++++++++
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21:39:43 <GreaseMonkey> >>>+[[-]>>[-]++>+>+++++++[<++++>>++<-]++>>+>+>+++++[>++>++++++<<-]+>>>,<++[[>[
21:39:43 <GreaseMonkey> ->>]<[>>]<<-]<[<]<+>>[>]>[<+>-[[<+>-]>]<[[[-]<]++<-[<+++++++++>[<->-]>>]>>]]<<
21:39:44 <GreaseMonkey> ]<]<[[<]>[[>]>>[>>]+[<<]<[<]<+>>-]>[>]+[->>]<<<<[[<<]<[<]+<<[+>+<<-[>-->+<<-[>
21:39:44 <GreaseMonkey> +<[>>+<<-]]]>[<+>-]<]++>>-->[>]>>[>>]]<<[>>+<[[<]<]>[[<<]<[<]+[-<+>>-[<<+>++>-
21:39:44 <GreaseMonkey> [<->[<<+>>-]]]<[>+<-]>]>[>]>]>[>>]>>]<<[>>+>>+>>]<<[->>>>>>>>]<<[>.>>>>>>>]<<[
21:40:10 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
21:40:11 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
21:40:18 <GreaseMonkey> !daemon extrabf bf8 >>>+[[-]>>[-]++>+>+++++++[<++++>>++<-]++>>+>+>+++++[>++>++++++<<-]+>>>,<++[[>[->>]<[>>]<<-]<[<]<+>>[>]>[<+>-[[<+>-]>]<[[[-]<]++<-[<+++++++++>[<->-]>>]>>]]<<]<]<[[<]>[[>]>>[>>]+[<<]<[<]<+>>-]>[>]+[->>]<<<<[[<<]<[<]+<<[+>+<<-[>-->+<<-[>+<[>>+<<-]]]>[<+>-]<]++>>-->[>]>>[>>]]<<[>>+<[[<]<]>[[<<]<[<]+[-<+>>-[<<+>++>-[<->[<<+>>-]]]<[>+<-]>]>[>]>]>[>>]>>]<<[>>+>>+>>]<<[->>>>>>>>]<<[>.>>>>>>>]<<[>->>>>>]<<[>,>>>]<<
21:41:03 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
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21:42:00 <GreaseMonkey> !daemon extrabf bf8 >>>+[[-]>>[-]++>+>+++++++[<++++>>++<-]++>>+>+>+++++[>++>++++++<<-]+>>>,<++[[>[->>]<[>>]<<-]<[<]<+>>[>]>[<+>-[[<+>-]>]<[[[-]<]++<-[<+++++++++>[<->-]>>]>>]]<<]<]<[[<]>[[>]>>[>>]+[<<]<[<]<+>>-]>[>]+[->>]<<<<[[<<]<[<]+<<[+>+<<-[>-->+<<-[>+<[>>+<<-]]]>[<+>-]<]++>>-->[>]>>[>>]]<<[>>+<[[<]<]>[[<<]<[<]+[-<+>>-[<<+>++>-[<->[<<+>>-]]]<[>+<-]>]>[>]>]>[>>]>>]<<[>>+>>+>>]<<[->>>>>>>>]<<[>.>>>>>>>]<<[>->>>>>]<<[>+>>>]<<
21:42:12 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
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21:44:07 <GreaseMonkey> then again, FukYorBrayne crashes too, and that's coded by Gregor
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21:48:42 <GreaseMonkey> !daemon cat bf8 ++++++++[>++++++++++++++<-]>[>+>+>+>+<<<<-]>--->----------->->+++++++>++++++++++>[-]+[[,----------]<[<]>[.>][-]+]
21:49:05 <EgoBot> 1 GreaseMonkey: daemon cat bf8
21:49:27 <GreaseMonkey> !daemon cat bf8 ++++++++[>++++++++++++++<-]>[>+>+>+>+<<<<-]>--->----------->->+++++++>++++++++++>[-]+[[,----------]<[<]>[.>][-]+]
21:49:49 <GreaseMonkey> !daemon kitten bf8 ++++++++[>++++++++++++++<-]>[>+>+>+>+<<<<-]>--->----------->->+++++++>++++++++++>[-]+[[,----------]<[<]>[.>][-]+]
21:50:29 <GreaseMonkey> so if i assign anything to cat, it'll just use the default cat program
21:51:51 <EgoBot> realloc: Cannot allocate memory
21:52:31 <EgoBot> realloc: Cannot allocate memory
21:52:59 <EgoBot> realloc: Cannot allocate memory
21:53:07 <EgoBot> 1 GreaseMonkey: daemon kitten bf8
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21:53:37 <EgoBot> realloc: Cannot allocate memory
21:53:54 <EgoBot> bf/, glass/, linguine/
21:55:26 <EgoBot> 1 GreaseMonkey: daemon kitten bf8
21:56:44 <EgoBot> realloc: Cannot allocate memory
21:57:09 <EgoBot> realloc: Cannot allocate memory
21:59:30 <GreaseMonkey> why do you have a link to "http://esolangs.org/wiki/Adjudicated" when it doesn't work?
22:02:28 <GreaseMonkey> !daemon kitten bf8 ++++++++[>++++++++++++++<-]>[>+>+>+>+<<<<-]>--->----------->->+++++++>++++++++++>[-]+[[,----------]<[<]>[.>][-]+]
22:05:07 <GreaseMonkey> k, so we got two people stupid enough to use mIRC (including me), a pissload of people using good ol' irssi and the lovely xchat, some using stuff i've never even heard of, one using hydraIRC, and two people stupid enough to own macs.
22:09:04 <RodgerTheGreat> when you type insults to mac users, what you're really saying is "I feel insecure about my choice of operating system"
22:14:46 <GreaseMonkey> hey, i've got linux, it's just that my distro won't detect my network card
22:15:22 <GreaseMonkey> meh sod it, i should just nuke my mandrake partition and stick something else on. so many choices....
22:16:46 <GreaseMonkey> i've got: mandrake 10.0 (network problems), fedora core 3 (sound problems D: ), ubuntu... something, morphix (modular distro - uses Gnome (eek!)), amd probably a few others
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22:34:43 <GreaseMonkey> when you try to be philosophical about someone stating something generic, what you're really saying is "be nice to be :("
23:14:49 <EgoBot> help ps kill i eof flush show ls bf_txtgen usertrig daemon undaemon
23:14:51 <EgoBot> 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf{8,[16],32,64} funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 unlambda whirl
23:15:27 <EgoBot> realloc: Cannot allocate memory
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23:23:09 <GreaseMonkey> it was because i kept doing this, which crashed it a few times: !daemon pie bf8 +++[>+++]
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23:26:50 <EgoBot> 1 GreaseMonkey: daemon kitten bf8
23:27:00 <EgoBot> 6 GreaseMonkey: daemon p bf
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23:28:51 <bsmntbombdood> man I can never think of clever ways to kill EgoBot
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23:30:20 <GreaseMonkey> tried to make it print the same letter over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and while(1){over and } again
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23:31:51 <GreaseMonkey> continue operation GregorRichardsKeepsProducingCrashyCode
23:35:17 <GreaseMonkey> !daemon f bf8 [-]----------[++++++++++>,----------]<[[<]>[.>]<]
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23:35:43 <GreaseMonkey> that's the third error code for "Connection reset by peer"
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23:36:26 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon kitten reload
23:36:28 <EgoBot> 2 GreaseMonkey: daemon b bf8
23:36:30 <EgoBot> 3 GreaseMonkey: daemon c bf8
23:36:32 <EgoBot> 4 GreaseMonkey: daemon d bf8
23:36:34 <EgoBot> 5 GreaseMonkey: daemon e bf8
23:36:50 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon kitten reload
23:36:52 <EgoBot> 2 GreaseMonkey: daemon b bf8
23:36:54 <EgoBot> 3 GreaseMonkey: daemon c bf8
23:36:56 <EgoBot> 4 GreaseMonkey: daemon d bf8
23:36:58 <EgoBot> 5 GreaseMonkey: daemon e bf8
23:37:08 <EgoBot> 1 EgoBot: daemon kitten reload
23:37:10 <EgoBot> 2 GreaseMonkey: daemon b bf8
23:37:13 <EgoBot> 3 GreaseMonkey: daemon c bf8
23:37:14 <EgoBot> 4 GreaseMonkey: daemon d bf8
23:37:16 <EgoBot> 5 GreaseMonkey: daemon e bf8
23:38:26 <EgoBot> 1 GreaseMonkey: daemon a bf8
23:38:28 <EgoBot> 2 GreaseMonkey: daemon b bf8
23:38:30 <EgoBot> 3 GreaseMonkey: daemon c bf8
23:38:32 <EgoBot> 4 GreaseMonkey: daemon d bf8
23:38:34 <EgoBot> 5 GreaseMonkey: daemon e bf8
23:39:04 <EgoBot> 1 GreaseMonkey: daemon a bf8
23:39:06 <EgoBot> 2 GreaseMonkey: daemon b bf8
23:39:09 <EgoBot> 3 GreaseMonkey: daemon c bf8
23:39:10 <EgoBot> 4 GreaseMonkey: daemon d bf8
23:39:12 <EgoBot> 5 GreaseMonkey: daemon e bf8
23:39:14 <EgoBot> 6 GreaseMonkey: daemon f bf8
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00:41:55 <SimonRC> I am hoping that this Ubuntu upgrade is not going to uninstall my x server or anything stupid like that.
00:42:24 <SimonRC> openoffice.org2 is being replaced by openoffice.org
00:45:39 <SimonRC> I though: "Hey! I'm still using 'Daft Drake' or whatever it's called. I'll upgrade to Edgy Eft."
01:12:22 <ihope> You forgot the name "Dapper Drake"? How'd you manage that?
01:19:08 <GreaseMonkey> referring to http://rodger.shadowarts.org/files/Handgrenade.txt , can the program counter be set directly?
01:21:25 <GreaseMonkey> 0500: set A to 00, 0201: set register 01 (Program Counter) to A
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01:24:29 <GreaseMonkey> each command goes XX YY, where XX is the opcode and YY is the supplied value
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01:29:28 <GreaseMonkey> that's intel syntax apart from the register values
01:33:15 <RodgerTheGreat> that command actually ignores it's parameter (wasteful, and I was going to change it)
01:35:27 <RodgerTheGreat> it was originally going to be the language spec for a programming combat game that we never really got around to implementing. Something kinda like RoboWars, if you've ever played it.
01:36:13 <RodgerTheGreat> there are games like it in existence. I thought it would be a fun game to code for PalmOS
01:39:46 <RodgerTheGreat> and I'm not sure I remember what the difference between 01 and 05 was supposed to be.
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01:44:06 <GreaseMonkey> reg 01 is the program counter, so what happens if i set it DIRECTLY?
01:44:50 <RodgerTheGreat> the system increments after each program step, so you actually want to jump to the address before the one you want
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01:45:58 <GreaseMonkey> you should hvae some external code loader because 128 instructions is impractical for anything big but it could fit a code loader
01:47:33 <RodgerTheGreat> the game centered around the idea of creating very lightweight, fast programs, so I was doing some work on refining the instruction set to make it easier to use for that purpose
01:48:13 <RodgerTheGreat> 128 instructions is small for something useful, like a program, but reasonably large for a simple bot AI
01:48:28 <GreaseMonkey> eg: F0 - load page A (64-byte pages) at location 00
01:48:45 <GreaseMonkey> F1 = load at loc 40, F2 = at loc 80, F3 = at loc C0
01:48:46 <RodgerTheGreat> as I said, the spec was still under a fair amount of development
01:49:22 <RodgerTheGreat> a memory paging system could work pretty well for this type of setup
01:50:24 <GreaseMonkey> well, F0-F3 = load page numbered by *register* xx, F4-7 load page numbered by *value* xx
01:51:29 <GreaseMonkey> and the initial setup should be: 00 = page 00, 40 = page 01, 80 = page 02, C0 = page 03
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04:52:59 <GreaseMonkey> one thing you need is the ability to read and write to/from memory
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04:55:37 <GreaseMonkey> 111: use far relative pointer backward (F0-F7)
04:56:15 <GreaseMonkey> Registers A-P are available. P is the program counter.
05:08:49 <Razor-X> I still say you only need SUBLEQ.
05:09:06 <Razor-X> Nor can I see why that's impractical, assuming a flat memory model. All you'll have to do is pay for busses.
05:09:31 <Razor-X> And maybe artificially segment of pieces of the memory as ``faster'', or create fast temporary pieces of storage or something.
05:11:07 <Razor-X> Of course, they'll be really fat busses. If you have a SUBLEQ-64 chip with my proposed extension for example, the busses will be 32 bytes long. Very very fat.
05:12:29 <bsmntbombdood> begin to see what was the emotion excited within me by the stile, and said to his visiter's remark, imparted to his vexation, that he saw nothing- although I call him by means of which he had been greatly changed during slumber.
05:13:37 <bsmntbombdood> At first, doubting that I was more angry than any of its roof, of course, added to a thick seaman's cloak, which he forcibly adapts his designs.
05:14:12 <bsmntbombdood> The door of the earth, you know, is twenty-four thousand miles east, I anticipate the rising of the transparent lake, and at the bare mention of the Egyptian ignorance of steam.
05:14:35 <bsmntbombdood> ^^ what you get when you take 37,000 lines of poe and give it to mark v. shaney
05:20:14 <GreaseMonkey> SubLEq gives out the biggest frikkin code ever
05:21:04 <Razor-X> But every operation is O(1) after all.
05:22:07 <GreaseMonkey> note that minibiatch doesn't have any jump or skip instructions, you have to scratch them out yourself
05:23:33 <Razor-X> All you need is memory and a fairly minimal datapath.
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06:04:41 <GreaseMonkey> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Minibiatch and http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:GreaseMonkey
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06:08:50 <GreaseMonkey> 02 00 26 00 C0 22 01 10 80 22 03 01 40 22 42 00 01 00 40 22 42 20 02 00 40 F2 02 F0 24 00 02 F0 04 00 00 FF 48 65 6C 6C 6F 20 57 6F 72 6C 64 21 0D 0A 00
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06:29:37 <Razor-X> Lets have a catalogue of stuff that breaks EgoBot! Just to mock GregorR!
06:33:57 <Razor-X> Mmmf. GreaseMonkey: Explain your architecture in a bit of detail.
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07:41:42 <GreaseMonkey> ok, i'm going to wash up, i'll be back in abt 20 minutes, just warming the room up
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01:08:31 <GreaseMonkey> that was bat-fuck anal, didn't agree with my simple license.
01:08:58 <GreaseMonkey> my license: "Minibiatch is made by Ben Russell, 2006. Anyone who wishes to do anything with Minibiatch including redistribution of the specification must include this quote somewhere. That's all I ask."
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01:56:37 <Razor-X> Well, it technically is not public domain.
02:06:23 * Asztal notices something rather important
02:08:12 <Asztal> I wanted to see what k does in this implementation, and I was hoping for -98 :)
02:08:31 <Asztal> that's the important thing I noticed
02:08:45 <Asztal> The docs say "owever, you may pass a zero count to k, and the ^ instruction will not be executed; this can be a valuable behaviour."
02:09:17 <Asztal> But the test suite I'm using seems to expect it to execute it the amount of times it pops off the stack, and then execute it again
02:09:37 <Razor-X> ++++++++[>++++++[>+>+>+<<<-]<-]>>+.+.+.
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02:26:59 <ivan`> RLEfuck would be nice
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03:25:24 <Asztal> ++6[>++4[>+>+>+<<1-]<-]>>{+.}4 ? :P
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06:20:38 <owt> what's the most fashionable esoteric language these days ?
06:24:57 <Razor-X> It's Everywhere You Want to Be.
06:25:23 <owt> so is it turing complete or not ?
06:25:36 <RodgerTheGreat> mainly because it's been slowly nearing a turing completeness proof
06:25:56 <RodgerTheGreat> it's an open opportunity for someone to do something groundbreaking like building a BF interpreter
06:26:07 <owt> in malbolge ?
06:26:32 <Razor-X> Well, I got somewhat started on a BF interpreter in INTERCAL some time ago.
06:26:34 <RodgerTheGreat> exceedingly hard, but it looks like it ought to be possible
06:26:49 <owt> hmm. do we have a quine in malbolge at least ?
06:30:52 <RodgerTheGreat> as far as I know, Malbolge has had hello world, cat, and 99B implemented, the third of which is *very* convincing proof that it ought to be useable.
06:31:48 <RodgerTheGreat> a quine has some similarities to a 99B program, so it seems plausible that one could be written
06:32:00 <lament> 99B can be implemented as a single print statement
06:32:08 <lament> so it's not _really_ proof of usability
06:32:34 <RodgerTheGreat> the one I saw obviously made use of a loop to generate it's output. I saw a normalized listing.
06:33:25 <RodgerTheGreat> but yes, it's true that 99B isn't necessarily any more convincing than Hello World, depending on how it's coded
06:34:20 <owt> do we have at least a program which loops indefinitely, in malbolge ?
06:35:14 <owt> lament, well, I mean, a busy-loop
06:35:16 <lament> owt: anyway, they lied to you, since malbolge is clearly not the most fashionable esolang
06:35:43 <owt> so what is the truth ?
06:42:29 * SimonRC will go in a few hours for a few hours, as this server is being moved.
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14:24:27 <bsmntbombdood> We don't have hello world in malboge, but something like HElLo wORld
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15:11:58 <GregorR> I took down EgoBot because some people who shall remain nameless abuse it for the sake of abusing it.
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17:32:07 <pgimeno> bsmntbombdood: that's pretty old; after that real hello world programs were written
17:37:46 <pgimeno> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge (see External resources)
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19:40:54 <lament> castrated into perdition?
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