00:00:10 <Arc_Koen> what has the biggest number to do with that, though?
00:00:23 <oerjan> the biggest number is needed for $'s
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00:06:39 <oerjan> (m-1) is enough for the $'s
00:07:04 <oerjan> (m-1)*n_$ + 2*n_: + n_rest
00:09:09 * Arc_Koen begins to understand why Ftack is so useless
00:09:55 <oerjan> it probably should be max(m-1, 1)
00:12:20 <Arc_Koen> let me just check that it is really a counterexample
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00:14:17 <Arc_Koen> we have to define "(m-1)*n_$" to be 0 if there are no numbers though, I think
00:14:49 <oerjan> i guess if there are no numbers you are catting the moment you hit a $, so yeah
00:14:58 <Arc_Koen> otherwise we could include a $ as the last element
00:15:36 <Arc_Koen> +1 symbol, +1 step, -1 in the bound
00:17:22 <oerjan> actually you can also have $0whatever
00:17:55 <Arc_Koen> yes but that's +3 symbols, +1 step
00:18:35 <oerjan> so max(m-1, 0) with 0 even if m doesn't exist
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00:19:59 <oerjan> well this is close to correct anyway, i think
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00:21:14 <oerjan> yes, but we need the max
00:22:49 <Arc_Koen> note that only :~!( can be applied to themselves
00:23:19 <oerjan> and of those, : and ( give end states
00:23:20 <Arc_Koen> I'm feeling so helpful right now
00:23:34 <oerjan> while ~ and ! keep shrinking
00:24:08 <Arc_Koen> ~ +1 step +1 symbol +1 to the bound
00:25:37 <Arc_Koen> !x + 1 step either + 2 or +m to the bound
00:30:55 <Arc_Koen> btw, ./fueuec thuemorse still ends up on a segfault, even with catching empty queues
00:32:00 <oerjan> and the suggestion to not use recursion?
00:33:37 <oerjan> fizzie seemed to have debugger proof that it overflowed the stack
00:34:26 <Arc_Koen> I guess I should learn to use debuggers
00:35:12 <Arc_Koen> TextEdit does have limitations
00:35:43 <Arc_Koen> well, at least vim is related to programming
00:36:03 <oerjan> but i don't even have any of the advanced vim setup some people do
00:39:44 <Phantom_Hoover> ISTR it only writing RTFs, but I was young and stupid back then.
00:41:04 <Arc_Koen> maybe sliiiightly more advanced as it can do some basic text formatting
00:41:16 <Arc_Koen> but I'm definitely not using that
00:41:46 <Arc_Koen> fun fact: it has an auto-spell check
00:41:59 <Arc_Koen> if you don't disable it, it will correct what you're typing without asking
00:42:12 <Arc_Koen> I wasn't aware of that, it messed with a lot of ocaml programs
00:42:47 <Arc_Koen> like 'rec' which was systematically turned into 'ref', or the opposite
00:45:31 <Arc_Koen> ok, this is a bug that should be corrected easily
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00:50:58 <Arc_Koen> empty program + ^D successfully prints an infinite amount of ?
00:51:01 <HackEgo> subleq: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:51:17 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to ChuckPonzi.
00:51:30 <itidus21> For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net, just incase
00:52:08 <monqy> as if someone named subleq
00:54:20 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: funny bug... ./fueuec '--65' works as it should, but ./fueuec --print '--65' reveals it doesn't -- 65 65 0 A 0 (waits for input)
00:57:39 <Arc_Koen> so there's one (or more) function I've messed with which somehow prevents stuff to be sent back to queue
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00:58:42 <Arc_Koen> and that makes both ) and - destroy the next element
01:01:59 <Arc_Koen> ok, now - and + interpret anything that's not a number as if it were a 0
01:05:42 <subleq> ah, i see all the old folks are here
01:07:09 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: something wrong with the use of matchwhat?
01:07:40 <oerjan> if you assume that is true you might get such an effect.
01:08:14 <Arc_Koen> things would have gotten serious if I had used an union
01:09:41 <Arc_Koen> I used !*s as meaning "s is not empty"
01:10:38 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i suppose s[0] != '\0' is more readable, and probably compiles down to the same thing.
01:11:03 <oerjan> oh so matchwhat _always_ returned true? :P
01:11:36 <oerjan> well i guess unless the queue is empty
01:12:29 <Arc_Koen> matchwhat is structured as "if (neither string nor queue are empty) {...} else if (string not empty) { false} else true"
01:12:55 <oerjan> i have a hunch that the entirety of matchwhat could be rewritten as a single expression
01:13:00 <Arc_Koen> so, thinking all strings were empty, he always returned true
01:13:12 <Arc_Koen> in ocaml I wrote it another way
01:13:52 <Arc_Koen> and could have wrote it many different other ways but heh one is enough
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01:16:41 <Arc_Koen> +HH still transforms into 0 though
01:18:21 <Arc_Koen> http://sprunge.us/XfgY?c actually
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01:26:19 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: adding printf("matchwhat: %s\n", (itsok?"TRUE":"FALSE")); in matchwhat shows matchwhat isn't even called
01:27:28 <Arc_Koen> so it's like I made a fancy error with !*s which wasn't given an occasion to mess around
01:27:30 <zzo38> If you make (s != "") in C it makes if the address does not match the address of "" so it is different.
01:29:29 <zzo38> But !*s means if s points to a value zero so for string meaning, empty string.
01:29:38 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: does it get to if (op == '+')
01:30:08 <Arc_Koen> I'll add a printf but I guess it does, since + 3 4 gives 7
01:30:50 <Arc_Koen> ok, uh, I agree this doesn't make any sense
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01:32:01 <shachaf> I value hours not spent on a plane much more than hours spent on a plane being able to watch movies.
01:32:02 <Arc_Koen> was using a different name for exec file when compiling and executing
01:33:04 <Arc_Koen> so basically I was using the last version which used that name, which probably was right after switching to !*s
01:33:31 <shachaf> With that said, Virgin America's was probably the nicest domestic flight I've been on.
01:35:55 <Arc_Koen> ok, it works with the wiki page's sample programs
01:37:27 <Arc_Koen> if you have any other remarks on the code... :-)
01:38:20 <oerjan> not haskelly enough ;P
01:39:06 <Arc_Koen> so hum, you have proven fueue was turing-complete?
01:39:48 <itidus21> oerjan has even proven that norway is turing complete
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01:41:20 <Arc_Koen> okay so up to now I was think those 46 46 46 111 117 116 32 111 102 32 115 116 97 99 107 33 10 things were supposed to be used by underload
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01:41:52 <oerjan> i just copied it from fungot's underload
01:41:52 <fungot> oerjan: i already have
01:42:50 <Arc_Koen> for a second I thought "^ul !" meant "find the last ascii-looking sequence of numbers written on this channel and translate it"
01:43:36 <oerjan> i then had to add the initial [] when i realized that the translation of : would gobble up the first 46 before it could get printed.
01:44:02 <oerjan> since things happen slightly in parallel, more or less
01:45:24 <Arc_Koen> what if they are two : in the underload program?
01:45:36 <Arc_Koen> won't the first eat [] and the second 46?
01:46:10 <kmc> shachaf: well, HEL-JFK and JFK-SFO are of comparable length
01:46:29 <oerjan> two consecutive underload functions aren't translated to two consecutive fueue subprograms. you need to use the AB translation to concatenate underload programs.
01:46:54 <kmc> i'm not sure about the subjective difference between 6h and 8h flights
01:46:59 <kmc> they both just register as "a long time"
01:47:04 <oerjan> so only one of the :'s will be running at a time.
01:47:18 <kmc> shachaf: did you see http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2012/08/30/long-flights-a-somewhat-serious-business-idea/
01:47:54 <oerjan> the ! translation also would gobble up the [], in a very literal fashion since it happens precisely at the spot where i use a fueue ! to remove the popped element
01:48:18 <shachaf> kmc: Hmm, I suppose that's true.
01:48:41 * shachaf is used to 10-12-hour international flights and 4-5 hours domestic flights.
01:48:57 <Arc_Koen> well, I'm not sure that's explicit on the wiki page, but I don't speak underload so i trust you
01:49:26 <oerjan> i didn't explain it much i guess :P
01:50:03 <shachaf> kmc: I find myself unable to concentrate on anything in flights.
01:50:06 <oerjan> i suppose i should add something about A and B representing nested underload programs
01:50:36 <kmc> shachaf: why?
01:51:57 <shachaf> I don't know. I wish it wasn't the case.
01:52:12 <shachaf> I'm also rarely able to sleep.
01:53:34 <shachaf> "Conversation will be discouraged by a loud white noise machine that permeates the space, encouraging you to put on headphones and listen to whatever music you’ve brought with you."
01:53:43 <shachaf> I can also usually not get anything done while listening to music.
01:53:53 <kmc> yeah, that's one of the dumber parts of this proposal
01:54:00 <kmc> one of the commenters suggests that you rely on social norms to shut people up
01:54:07 <kmc> like the library
01:54:42 <shachaf> Oh, and one of the most important of long flights is the loud baby in the row behind you.
01:54:54 * shachaf accidentally a lot of words these days.
01:56:40 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i mean, to translate the underload program (:^):^ say, you translate A = (:^) B = :^ recursively and use the AB rule to combine them.
01:57:09 <oerjan> or you can split it as A = (:^): B = ^ , doesn't matter much
01:57:39 <Arc_Koen> what if you split it as A = (:^):^ B = empty ?
01:58:16 <Arc_Koen> oh, wait, you must continue splitting until you have only one-symbol programs?
01:58:46 <oerjan> but you made me realize i actually forgot to represent the empty program in my translation
01:59:06 <oerjan> which is important, since you can have use for () which uses it recursively
01:59:28 <kmc> shachaf: what about music without words
02:00:09 <shachaf> Sometimes it's OK... Sometimes it still doesn't work.
02:00:40 <shachaf> I should probably figure it out and collect some non-disruptive music.
02:04:52 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: expanded the wiki table
02:07:44 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: oh and btw the subprograms must have matching parentheses, as always in underload, which is why the (A) rule is separate.
02:08:38 <Arc_Koen> okay, but ( and ) are underload commands that are quite unrelated, are they?
02:08:53 <Arc_Koen> I mean, the correct parenthesing is only an arbitrary rule, right?
02:09:10 <oerjan> no, they always match. (A) is more or less similar to fueue (A
02:10:53 <oerjan> except that fueue [A] does nothing, while underload [A] moves itself from the running program to the stack
02:14:22 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: I think I corrected all bugs and memory leaks from fueue.c so i'd be thankful if you could replace it http://sprunge.us/iEAW
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02:32:47 <zzo38> Review what I have written more of RogueVM; I have written a lot more by now.
02:43:28 <shachaf> kmc: "ANSI Windows code pages, and especially the code page 1252, were called that way since they were purportedly based on drafts submitted or intended for ANSI. However, ANSI and ISO have not standardized any of these code pages."
02:44:58 <pikhq_> 1252 at least is *compatible with* the ISO charset it gets confused with.
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03:02:42 <kmc> i'm using gitit
03:02:49 <kmc> i like that i can export any dumb page on my wiki as LaTeX or man page
03:06:53 <kmc> or a S5 slideshow
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04:57:23 <zzo38> OK, I wrote a lot more of RogueVM now: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/roguevm/roguevm.tex http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/roguevm/roguevm.dvi Now I have many more instructions, more about the display, a complex numeric print mode, and various other things added or modified in case they were wrong or missing before.
05:05:08 <shachaf> Is there a simple way to make CTR mode suitable for disk encryption?
05:06:04 <kmc> shachaf: I am going to sleep, but remind me about that question tomorrow.
05:06:20 <kmc> @ask kmc Is there a simple way to make CTR mode suitable for disk encryption?
05:06:23 <shachaf> @tell kmc <kmc> shachaf: I am going to sleep, but remind me about that question tomorrow.
05:06:30 <lambdabot> kmc: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
05:06:50 <shachaf> kmc: Back to normal-people sleep schedule, are you?
05:07:00 <shachaf> @tell kmc 22:06 <kmc> @ask kmc Is there a simple way to make CTR mode suitable for disk encryption?
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07:16:22 <shachaf> @tell kmc Also, can you easily turn a stream cipher into a block cipher? (Also, some other things.)
07:16:52 * shachaf will save conversation for tomorrow.
07:27:59 <impomatic> Has anyone used Joy? What do you think of it?
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09:25:32 <lambdabot> Source not found. Maybe if you used more than just two fingers...
09:26:19 <fizzie> @tell Arc_Koen Remarks: You have another memory leak: consider ![...] or $n[...] -- in both, you throw away the block Token with deletetop(), but it doesn't free the Queue data in it; yet the only pointer to that data is lost. See http://sprunge.us/WiHK
09:28:03 <fizzie> "Two Fingers" is a brand of tequila. I don't know where the name comes from.
09:29:10 <atriq> I ought to upload my Fueue interpreter somewhere
09:31:23 <atriq> Is there a way I can pipe something directly to the clipboard?
09:31:40 <atriq> foo > /dev/clipboard or something like that
09:32:16 <fizzie> atriq: Depends on which clipboard you're talking about. For the X clipboards, there are several command-line tools.
09:32:30 <fizzie> 'xclip' is one, if you happen to have it installed.
09:32:59 <fizzie> It uses the primary selection by default, and the CLIPBOARD selection if you ask it to.
09:33:38 <fizzie> "foo | xclip" will let the middle-mouse-paste paste the output of foo, for example.
09:33:57 <shachaf> ...Because it usually seems to be installed.
09:34:12 <fizzie> Though neither is xclip.
09:34:47 <fizzie> It looks very similar, except with slightly more bells on it.
09:41:47 <fizzie> @tell Arc_Koen Remarks: I'm still a bit confused by is_empty not taking a Queue*; the "const Queue q" parameter declaration is especially confusing, since the 'const' can't really do anything too meaningful; it's passed a new Queue by value, so from the viewpoint of the caller, it couldn't modify it anyway.
09:42:30 <fizzie> @tell Arc_Koen Remarks: In main, printf("Too many arguments.\n", argc); should either lose the "argc", or add a corresponding "%d" in the format. (The '-Wall' gcc flag would've noticed this.)
09:43:20 <atriq> Why is getting syntax highlighting for Haskell on Tumblr so hard
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09:47:56 <fizzie> atriq: Perhaps you should start a more Haskell-friendly competitor, called Humblr?
09:53:46 <itidus21> I don't think anyone questions that some of us have or haven't done that.
10:17:37 <itidus21> there is no integer between 1 and 2!
10:23:53 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Can you do that nowadays? I remember a common complaint about std::vector and such that you can't use the {a,b,c} initializers with them.
10:24:16 <AnotherTest> fizzie: yes, that's C++11's initialize list feature
10:29:33 <itidus21> i always admired the DATA statement in basic
10:31:14 <AnotherTest> mroman: is the source code of stlisp available somewhere?
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11:06:50 <mroman> The source code has gone missing.
11:10:25 <mroman> As I'm not a person who uses backups.
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11:35:03 <fizzie> "You need me on your staff, because I'm a man who thinks."
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11:43:23 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
11:43:28 <lambdabot> fizzie said 2h 17m 9s ago: Remarks: You have another memory leak: consider ![...] or $n[...] -- in both, you throw away the block Token with deletetop(), but it doesn't free the Queue data in it;
11:43:28 <lambdabot> yet the only pointer to that data is lost. See http://sprunge.us/WiHK
11:43:28 <lambdabot> fizzie said 2h 1m 41s ago: Remarks: I'm still a bit confused by is_empty not taking a Queue*; the "const Queue q" parameter declaration is especially confusing, since the 'const' can't really do
11:43:28 <lambdabot> anything too meaningful; it's passed a new Queue by value, so from the viewpoint of the caller, it couldn't modify it anyway.
11:43:28 <lambdabot> fizzie said 2h 58s ago: Remarks: In main, printf("Too many arguments.\n", argc); should either lose the "argc", or add a corresponding "%d" in the format. (The '-Wall' gcc flag would've noticed this.
11:44:02 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/z55a3/has_there_been_more_highprofile_gun_crime_lately/c61pen4
11:48:31 <fizzie> I didn't say those things with that many newlines in the middle.
11:53:24 <mroman> So handing out a gun to everyone doesn't work out quite as expected?
11:57:22 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: do you think I should change is_empty(Queue q) to is_empty(const Queue *q)?
11:58:26 <Arc_Koen> I mean, there is not really any argument why to use a pointer here; it would be like having something like is_empty(const char **s) to test emptiness of a string
11:59:10 <itidus21> "and how soon before they have a drug where side effects may include rectal ventriliquism. if your asshole starts talking call a doctor.. or get friends over cos it's gonna be a fun night"
12:24:32 <kmc> hi shachaf
12:24:32 <lambdabot> kmc: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
12:24:39 <kmc> against my better judgement, i am awake
12:24:43 <shachaf> kmc: Just as I was about to go to sleep. :-(
12:24:50 <Arc_Koen> @tell oerjan ./fueuec '~!~)): [[48 [)):] [~!~)):] ~~) !][49 [~!~)):] [)):] )~]]' 11010011001011010010110011010011001011001... '110' seems a weird start for the thue morse sequence...
12:24:53 <shachaf> Did you sleep tonight yet?
12:25:07 <shachaf> Oh. You just woke up early?
12:25:10 <kmc> but my alarm went off by accident at 08:00
12:25:16 <shachaf> Doing better than I am, then.
12:25:22 <kmc> and i haven't been able to get back to sleep
12:25:27 <shachaf> I wish my alarm could just wake me up. That would be great.
12:26:44 <kmc> what does it do instead?
12:29:23 <kmc> shachaf: can you use an ESSIV for the nonce part of the counter
12:29:26 <kmc> isn't that enough?
12:30:06 <shachaf> ESSIV is "generate an IV based on the sector number"?
12:30:29 <kmc> based on the sector number and the hash of the key
12:30:54 <kmc> i guess this is not secure though
12:30:57 <shachaf> That's very broken since you can overwrite old blocks.
12:31:13 <shachaf> x ^ y will give you the xor of the plaintexts.
12:31:15 <kmc> you end up reusing the keystream otput from CTR
12:31:17 <itidus21> maybe the internet should shut down overnight
12:31:58 <kmc> whereas reusing the IV for CBC is not as much of a problem
12:32:03 <kmc> but still bad
12:32:23 <shachaf> You get the property that "someone can see if what you wrote to a block has ever been there before".
12:32:35 <shachaf> Which is undesirable in normal uses of CBC but maybe doesn't matter in disk encryption.
12:32:56 <shachaf> (By the way, I don't see the advantage of thinking of the "nonce part" and the "counter part" of the CTR input, rather than just a "counter that starts at a random value".)
12:33:22 <shachaf> (Alternatively, ciphertext_i = ENC(key, iv + i) ^ plaintext_i)
12:33:51 <kmc> did i tell you i saw a cold boot attack on a spy show on TV? :)
12:35:01 <shachaf> I didn't know that was called a cold boot attack.
12:40:30 <kmc> i guess it's a pun
12:40:47 <shachaf> 05:40 puns aren't worth much.
12:41:08 <kmc> i meant "cold boot"
12:41:42 <shachaf> Is that a fictional spy show or a nonfictional spy show?
12:41:43 <kmc> should i give an informal talk at MIT (a "SIPB cluedump") on how to screw up using cryptography?
12:41:56 <kmc> the show is real; it is a work of fiction
12:42:02 <kmc> the show is Burn Notice
12:42:15 <kmc> it is a fairly ridiculous show but lots of fun to watch
12:42:27 <shachaf> Also you should come up with a bunch of CTF challenges that get cryptography wrong.
12:42:33 <shachaf> And then we can make a #esoteric CTF out of it.
12:42:38 <kmc> wish i could make nelhage and gdb do that
12:42:39 <shachaf> Since Stripe probably won't do it.
12:42:42 <kmc> i think i won't have time
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12:43:14 <shachaf> I'll do some if you do some!
12:43:24 <kmc> also it's annoying to run a CTF
12:43:26 * shachaf wonders whether making good CTF problems is really hard.
12:43:29 <kmc> because people try to hack your shit
12:44:01 <kmc> did you see https://blog.gregbrockman.com/2012/08/system-design-stripe-capture-the-flag/
12:44:06 <kmc> i don't know why this wasn't on the stripe blog
12:44:32 <shachaf> He talked about it at the CTF event.
12:44:50 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Sure there is: large structs are conventionally passed as pointers in C, to cut down the amount of necessary copying. (Admittedly a compiler can sometimes optimize. But not without inlining, while still following ABI rules.)
12:44:56 <shachaf> Apparently several of the levels had alternate solutions that they didn't think of.
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12:45:23 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: a queue is a struct made of one int and two pointers
12:45:24 <shachaf> For example level 5 was solved by nearly everyone using an unintentional bug, it seems?
12:46:45 <kmc> which bug?
12:46:47 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Yeah; anything larger than a pointer quite often counts as large. Anyway, it's a convention, doesn't need to make all that much sense.
12:47:03 <shachaf> Apparently you were supposed to make a response which consisted entirely of a string matching the regexp
12:47:13 <shachaf> /somethingAUTHORIZEDsomething$/
12:47:15 <kmc> you ought to benchmark to figure out whether a pointer or a struct copy would be faster
12:47:41 <shachaf> Anyway there was an alternate way involving exceptions raise by certain HTTP responses which was actually what they intended.
12:47:47 <shachaf> Also a bunch of other things that I don't remember.
12:47:47 <kmc> i just put a file with the contents " AUTHORIZED" on a level2 server, and then had the level5 server talk to itself, talking to the level2 server
12:48:04 <shachaf> Right, I did something similar.
12:48:41 <shachaf> Do you have your email of level ideas? You should @paste it or something and get people to come up with more concrete levels.
12:49:09 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: ok, I guess I will change it then
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12:49:51 <shachaf> kmc: Any idea what "nm" stands for on http://nacl.cr.yp.to/box.html ?
12:50:13 <kmc> it's pretty remarkable that stripe was willing to spend several developer-weeks on this
12:50:45 <shachaf> Also, of how you might do disk encryption with a stream cipher?
12:53:21 <kmc> i don't know about that either
12:55:12 <fizzie> I did level5 with a pingback URI of https://level05-2.stripe-ctf.com/user-wiosmyvnoi/?pingback=http://level02-2.stripe-ctf.com:54123 and echo AUTHORIZED | nc -l 54123 so that the error response of [[An unknown error occurred while requesting http://level02-2.stripe-ctf.com:54123/: wrong status line: "AUTHENTICATED"]] from the pingback attempt worked as an acceptable reply.
12:55:58 <shachaf> fizzie: Oh, that's the way you were supposed to solve it, I think.
12:56:03 <fizzie> s/AUTHORIZED/AUTHENTICATED/ but anyhow.
12:56:28 <fizzie> (I stumbled over the error message completely accidentally, though.)
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13:04:09 <kmc> http://phantomjs.org/ looks useful
13:04:19 <kmc> for testing websites and the like
13:10:41 <kmc> it's quite an interesting idea that the right way to do scraping these days is to instantiate a full headless browser and interrogate it with jQuery
13:12:26 <Gregor> The modern browser is a VM, not a markup engine.
13:12:36 <kmc> well it's both and a lot more
13:13:11 <kmc> i mean, i am not surprised by this fact
13:13:31 <kmc> but i am wondering if in particular i should do more scraping this way
13:14:10 <kmc> there are some definite disadvantages as well
13:15:55 <kmc> not that much
13:16:39 <kmc> when i worked in finance we had a whole team doing scraping :/
13:17:31 <kmc> because they wanted to get all the information out of all the different brokerage accounts daily, if not in real-time
13:17:36 <kmc> and integrate it into a master risk-management thingy
13:18:37 <kmc> and different brokers provide a variably terrible experience in getting this data programmatically
13:18:57 <kmc> many of them would at least let you download a .csv or .xls file
13:19:46 <AnotherTest> does a programming language with the name "MIX" exist?
13:20:09 <AnotherTest> (MIX standing for Modular, Interpreted, eXtensible language)
13:20:10 <shachaf> I think it's more of a CPU architecture.
13:20:11 <kmc> it's the fictional CPU architecture invented by Knuth in TAoCP
13:20:22 <shachaf> It certainly doesn't stand for that.
13:20:35 <kmc> labeling your language as "interpreted" is stupid
13:20:39 <kmc> what if someone writes a compiler for it?
13:21:02 <kmc> what if someone does it anyway
13:21:21 <kmc> Phantom__Hoover: that's the new version
13:21:25 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: MMIX is the 2009 version of MIX.
13:21:32 <shachaf> (Actually it's 1992 or something.)
13:21:50 <kmc> suckless MIX, reinvented, done right, for the modern era
13:22:08 <kmc> you should look up the etymology of MIX, it's amusing
13:22:36 <shachaf> MIX is a funny architecture in a lot of ways.
13:22:46 <shachaf> ...I know very little about it, but most of what I know is strange.
13:22:53 <kmc> but learning it will make you a REAL MASTER HACKER
13:23:24 <AnotherTest> unless of course someone decides to port it to windows
13:23:48 <Phantom__Hoover> "MIX is a hybrid binarydecimal computer. When programmed in binary, each byte has 6 bits (values range from 0 to 63). In decimal, each byte has 2 decimal digits (values range from 0 to 99). Bytes are grouped into words of five bytes plus a sign. Most programs written for MIX will work in either binary or decimal, so long as they do not try to store a value greater than 63 in a single byte." O.o
13:23:49 <shachaf> That's "Standard Oil", right?
13:24:32 <kmc> at the time TAoCP was written, decimal computers were still popular
13:24:58 <kmc> this is one of the reasons why i question the idea that TAoCP will make you a master hacker
13:25:13 <kmc> as opposed to just being an extremely hard and pointless exercise that only master hackers can pass
13:25:20 <kmc> but i'm just bitter because i gave up on reading it
13:26:30 <Phantom__Hoover> I tried a while back and elliott said he would but I think he gave up after I said it was too maths to understand
13:28:25 <kmc> pineapples profile
13:31:26 <Phantom__Hoover> it's important to obtain a pineapple profile before working on pineapple optimisation
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13:42:32 <fizzie> The assembly language for it is commonly called "MIX" too, in case that wasn't mentioned.
13:42:49 <fizzie> Even though I suppose it's not pedantically correct.
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14:24:34 <shachaf> @ask elliott Write a web scraping bot for me that visits stack overflow com dot every day so I am get gold star.
14:24:56 <shachaf> @ask elliott I mean gold badge. GOLD BADGE = MEANING OF LIFE
14:25:23 <oklo> i'm pretty sure even i could write that bot with ease, why don't you do it yourself
14:26:30 <shachaf> echo 'something something cron syntax curl -b ~/shachaf/cookie-file http://stackoverflow.com/' > something something crontab
14:27:12 <shachaf> I'm even getting my mock command line syntax wrong. :-(
14:37:00 <kmc> you can get frequent flyer points that way, too
14:37:17 <kmc> some airlines give you points for checking in at the airport on foursquare or whatever
14:46:03 <oklo> so do you actually have to show your mileage card or how does it work? i never do but i have like a gazillion points
14:46:19 <oklo> i don't really even know what those look like.
14:46:30 <kmc> for foursquare hax or in general?
14:46:38 <oklo> in general if applicable
14:46:40 <kmc> in general you can put in your mileage number when you book flights online
14:46:45 <oklo> and if you don't?
14:46:48 <oklo> i've never done that
14:47:03 <kmc> then you can sometimes claim the points after the flight
14:47:12 <oklo> but i don't! why do i have points :D
14:47:16 <kmc> yeah, i don't know
14:47:22 <kmc> are you logged into the website when you book
14:47:40 <oklo> i don't book myself, the university travel agency does
14:47:48 <kmc> well they probably set up an account for you
14:47:49 <oklo> maybe they do it
14:47:59 <fizzie> I don't get any points for conference trips; the university has a rule that all the points go to the university. :/
14:48:12 <oklo> what's the use of the points?
14:48:24 <oklo> or should i say... point
14:48:33 <oklo> ...instead of use
14:48:34 <kmc> you can use them to book free travel and other free things
14:48:45 <fizzie> Or discounts for things.
14:49:23 <fizzie> Finnair has discount deals with at least some restaurants, we've eaten our points from regular vacationing.
14:49:30 <oklo> well i do like free points
14:49:35 <oklo> free things i mean
14:50:24 <oklo> maybe i should check how this works, i do like food so wouldn't want to waste.
14:50:50 <oklo> just sounds so incredibly complicated
14:50:55 <fizzie> The points do evaporate (in something like three years or so) if not used.
14:51:10 <oklo> everything does
14:51:30 <oklo> they all evaporate at once right?
14:51:48 <fizzie> No, just the ones that are old enough.
14:51:58 <fizzie> Well, one trip's points all go at once.
14:52:45 <oklo> okay i guess that makes sense when the points come in a bunch when you take a trip. the idea of a thousand points with individual ages just seemed a bit silly.
14:53:14 <kmc> sometimes there are ways to keep them alive
14:53:21 <oklo> like proper nutrition
14:53:54 <oklo> i need to go make sure some stuff doesn't get stolen tonight.
14:54:03 <kmc> in the US if you buy one share of stock every day, each share has an individual age and you need to keep track of this for tax purposes
14:54:08 <oklo> me neither, or they won't pay me.
14:54:12 <fizzie> They could have a point half-life and a random process, though, I'm sure physicists would be more interested in the system that way.
14:54:58 <shachaf> I like JetBlue's advertisements.
14:55:16 <shachaf> * Unless you don't use any points for a while. Then they expire.
14:55:17 <oklo> perhaps when wormhole travel is invented, points become quantum.
14:55:20 <fizzie> Hey, I've seen one of those.
14:56:04 <kmc> jetblue points are kind of boring and useless, iirc
14:56:05 <fizzie> Finnair has this PlusShop where you can buy all this completely random stuff with points. Lamps, bicycles, frying pans. That kind of stuff.
14:56:19 <kmc> the traditional airline rewards in the USA are based on miles flown
14:56:22 <fizzie> Or maybe it's just money+points.
14:56:28 <kmc> which is strange, because pricing is not particularly well correlated to miles flown
14:56:33 <kmc> and this enables all kinds of hax
14:56:47 <kmc> such as "mileage runs" which are flights abnormally cheap for how far they go
14:56:52 <kmc> which are actually worth taking for this purpose
14:57:09 <fizzie> Yeah, I think Finnair points are just a fixed amount, depending on flight type (domestic, in Europe, intercontinental).
14:57:21 <shachaf> Mileage runs are only free if your time is worthless.
14:57:36 <shachaf> And also not a lot like Linux.
14:57:59 <kmc> i mean, i know someone who has a high paying job in NYC and does mileage runs all the time
14:58:00 <fizzie> Hrm, apparently there's a bit more variation there than that. But it's not strictly distance, it's some kind of an arbitrary assignment.
14:58:22 <shachaf> How worthwhile do they end up being?
14:58:28 <kmc> if you like flying, and visiting randomly chosen places for brief periods of time
14:58:37 <kmc> and if you're able to do useful things on a plane, like work or sleep
14:58:47 <kmc> then it is more worthwhile
14:59:08 <shachaf> Though "abnormally cheap given their distance" is a bit of a strange criterion.
15:01:21 <fizzie> I don't think Delta is one of the oneworld alliance members, anyway, so I wouldn't be getting points from the next trip.
15:01:24 <fizzie> Incidentally, is there something I should know about Delta? Are they considered some kind of a bad thing or something?
15:01:52 <shachaf> I think they're considered a typical mediocre airline?
15:02:08 <kmc> i've heard that delta miles are unusually worthless
15:02:18 <kmc> which doesn't mean you shouldn't fly on delta
15:02:50 <kmc> if you want to know way too much about all of this, http://www.flyertalk.com
15:03:37 <fizzie> I don't know what it is, really, since one of the confirmation mails says Delta, and the other refers to KLM Royal Dutch airlines, pretty much randomly. And one of then even includes Alaska Airlines for a single hop. I suppose they're all kinds of joint-service deals.
15:03:41 * shachaf 's ~/.../travel/* directory has a lot of <kmc> in it by now.
15:04:01 <kmc> lexande knows a lot about this stuff
15:04:25 <shachaf> Most of it is about flights, Boston, NYC, NYC<->BOS, etc.
15:04:40 <shachaf> lexande isn't here, though.
15:04:55 <shachaf> You seem to end up in actual conversations about these things in channels I'm in.
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15:43:25 <ais523> basketball tactics are ridiculous
15:43:49 <ais523> just observed: a player managing to gain a large advantage by managing to avoid being fouled for 7 seconds, while the other team were trying to commit a foul against them
15:45:53 <ais523> (the tactic used was basically to run away)
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15:51:40 <Braber01> PATH, Brainfuck and deritivies of brainfuck all use ascii values to print letters correct?
15:56:04 <ais523> Braber01: ASCII is the most common interpretation
15:56:16 <ais523> and not matching ASCII for the range 0-127 would be incompatible with pretty much everything
15:56:24 <Braber01> Thanks, Just wanted to make sure
15:56:27 <ais523> beyond that, it's unclear whether programs are meant to print single bytes or Unicode
15:56:34 <ais523> (single bytes is a lot more common)
15:59:23 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, well, it's a bit of a toss-up between 1 and 31.
16:00:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Nobody ever uses any of those characters except for 10 and 04.
16:01:57 <fizzie> That's a vertical tab.
16:02:05 <fizzie> *Those* aren't used much.
16:02:14 <fizzie> The horizontal one is 9.
16:02:42 <fizzie> 13s are around on other systems.
16:02:58 <fizzie> And in HTTP, and around.
16:04:33 <fizzie> And I guess a few 7s to annoy people, and Usenet has a kinda-convention to put 12s before spoilers, though I suppose that might be prety dead at this point.
16:06:08 <zzo38> Not only HTTP; many internet protocols use CRLF line endings (HTTP, IRC, SMTP, gopher, etc)
16:07:05 <zzo38> CRLF is also use as line endings on DOS and on Windows, and CRLF is the printable line endings
16:08:04 <fizzie> It has the drawback that people who don't want to see the spoiler have to stop reading, since there's no "end spoler" convention. ROT-13 works better in that regard.
16:08:58 <zzo38> Actually there is another way: Post the spoiler in another message with "SPOILER" title.
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16:49:29 <kmc> shachaf: do you know about HTTP Strict Transport Security?
16:49:32 <kmc> i learned about this yesterday
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17:23:51 <zzo38> Can you please review the RogueVM document again? Since, I added a lot of things. Please tell me if I missed anything important.
17:24:05 <zzo38> or if anything is unclear.
17:24:11 -!- 14WAACEG2 has changed nick to atriq.
17:24:22 <zzo38> Did you change your nick? I don't know why.
17:24:46 <atriq> I wasn't paying attention
17:24:54 <atriq> I don't think I did
17:25:36 <fizzie> Doesn't that on freenode change to GuestNNNNN or something.
17:25:52 <itidus21> sometimes in old abandoned theatres when people login to IRC their nicks change
17:26:49 <fizzie> That looks more like the server-imposed nick-collision avoidance thing that is sometimes done. Isn't 14WAACEG2 an otherwise illegal nick?
17:27:25 <fizzie> You can't self change nick to something that starts with a number.
17:27:26 <zzo38> Yes it does look like otherwise illegal if it start with a digit.
17:27:34 <fizzie> atriq: From here, it looked like:
17:27:34 <fizzie> 20:17 -!- atriq is now known as 14WAACEG2
17:27:34 <fizzie> 20:17 -!- atriq [~Taneb@78.146.170.75] has joined #esoteric
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17:28:21 <zzo38> I am trying to play a BBS door game "Franchise Basketball" but there are no free agents!
17:29:49 <fizzie> I suppose some kind of a freenode hiccup, two servers both accepting a connection (perhaps your client reconnecting or something) and then getting confuzzled when they both had a user with the same nickname. That kind of thing used to happen a whole lot in IRCnet during netsplits; it was a common way of "taking over" a channel, by killing everyone on it with an intentional nick collision.
17:30:13 <fizzie> (Old IRCnet rule for nick collisions was to drop both users; and there are no services like ChanServ there.)
17:31:00 <zzo38> One thing that could do to avoid taking over a channel would be to use channel types which cannot be taken over in this way: !&+ (anything other than # type)
17:31:35 <Arc_Koen> atriq: I think there are no more problems with my C interpreter
17:32:50 <fizzie> Well, !channels weren't available at that time, &channels are local, and +channels don't support operators at all. (The latter could be considered an advantage by some, of course.)
17:33:22 <atriq> Pretty much working
17:33:33 <atriq> A bit slow, but I think that's a problem with Fueue
17:34:36 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes. Since & are local they cannot be overtaken by other servers, and since + are no operators they also cannot be overtaken.
17:35:02 <Arc_Koen> hmm, my ocaml interpreter appears to be much slower than the C one
17:35:09 <Arc_Koen> maybe that's because of using recursivity
17:36:39 <atriq> How quick is your C one, running oerjan's Thue-Morse sequence program?
17:39:06 <Arc_Koen> weeeeeeell okay maybe not so fast
17:39:35 <Arc_Koen> it takes about five seconds to cover my entire screen with 0s and 1s
17:39:48 <Arc_Koen> however, I'm not sure it's the correct thue-morse sequence
17:40:01 <atriq> Okay, that's quicker than my Haskell program
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17:45:31 <kmc> it's so stupid that desktop mice are wireless by default
17:46:01 <zzo38> My computer is wired.
17:46:21 <kmc> my mouse never leaves my desk; why should I deal with batteries, wireless interference, multiple parts i can lose, etc.
17:46:40 <zzo38> You should buy the wired one instead, then!
17:49:11 <kmc> but selection is limited
17:49:41 <kmc> wired mice are mostly either very cheap and crappy, or are expensive, designed for gamers, and completely ridiculous
17:50:17 <zzo38> I would prefer a three button wired mouse without wheel
17:51:08 <kmc> why no wheel?
17:51:55 <zzo38> So that the wheel will not turn and make it difficult to use the mouse.
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18:02:25 <kmc> i've not had that problem
18:03:09 <Arc_Koen> I'm surprised not to find a functional version of brainfuck on the wiki
18:03:17 <Arc_Koen> with all the derivatives it has
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18:28:38 <zzo38> I think the backgammon on X-BIT is computer player is not very good, because they are in jail a lot.
18:31:19 <zzo38> I have won 24 out of 33. The system operator has played 6 times and lost all of them.
18:31:40 <zzo38> Nobody else has played this game.
18:33:08 <zzo38> Yes, basically it means they are placed off the board at your home and must re-enter the board before making any other moves.
18:34:07 <zzo38> This backgammon game does not implement doubling cube, but the person who showed me how to play backgammon didn't know how to use it either (I later read a book and learned how it is used).
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18:42:38 <zzo38> What is this? Please select Your Language: [ 0] LANGUAGE [No Description Available] [ 1] LARGE [No Description Available]
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18:50:46 <itidus21> seems like it presents two options [0] language [1] large
18:51:01 <zzo38> Yes but I don't know what those options mean.
18:51:09 <zzo38> I tried both and neither of them seem to work.
18:52:03 <Sgeo> Maybe I should try playing Backgammon
18:52:15 <itidus21> i would have expected [ 0] Australian English [ 1] British English [ 2] American English [ 3] Italian [ 4] French [ 5] Chiense
18:52:46 <oerjan> dammit my sandal broke
18:52:47 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:52:51 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen said 6h 28m 1s ago: ./fueuec '~!~)): [[48 [)):] [~!~)):] ~~) !][49 [~!~)):] [)):] )~]]' 11010011001011010010110011010011001011001... '110' seems a weird start for the thue morse sequence...
18:53:11 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: um you forgot the initial 48
18:53:49 <Arc_Koen> I just copied the code from the wiki page :)
18:54:44 <Sgeo> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/Backgammon_lg.jpg
18:54:48 <oerjan> I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT *COUGH*
18:54:50 <Sgeo> I have no idea what's going on
18:55:14 <itidus21> probably this code '~!~)): [[48 [)):] [~!~)):] ~~) !][49 [~!~)):] [)):] )~]]'
18:55:37 <oerjan> yes but there's a 48 at the beginning *cough*
18:55:58 <Arc_Koen> Sgeo: nothing's going on, it's the start position
18:56:27 <zzo38> Yes, it is the start position. Sometimes both players share the same dice but in this set the player have their own dice.
18:56:34 <Arc_Koen> blacks move counterclockwise, while whites move clockwise
18:57:04 <itidus21> having your own dice probably makes cheating easier
18:57:06 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: players almost always have their own dice, except in travel sets or sets that are smaller for whatever reason
18:58:11 <itidus21> but i'll try to be less cynical
18:58:20 <Arc_Koen> Sgeo: so for instance, if you roll a 5 and a 1, you can move one pawn by 5; then one by 1 (or the opposite)
18:58:26 <zzo38> The pieces could be black and red, or other colors, instead of black and white.
18:58:45 <itidus21> except they can't be the same color
18:58:49 <zzo38> Yes, whatever number you roll you move a piece that many spaces. It must land on your own pieces, an empty space, or a space containing exactly one opponent's piece.
18:59:01 <zzo38> You can play in either order. If you roll double, you make four moves instead of two.
18:59:08 <Sgeo> I'm reading the Wikipedia page
18:59:23 <Arc_Koen> a month ago I learned a russian variant
18:59:36 <Arc_Koen> it's basically the same except you start with ALL your pawns on the same file
18:59:43 <zzo38> If you land on an opponent's piece then the opponent's piece goes to jail; it is usually placed on the bar in between the half of the board in order to indicate this.
19:00:12 <zzo38> If all of your pieces are in your home, then you can move pieces off of the board. You still need the number to move off of the board, though.
19:00:26 <zzo38> If all of your pieces are off the board and not in jail, you win.
19:01:02 <itidus21> i think it would be interesting to have a dice with a "roll twice" face
19:01:27 <zzo38> If you are in jail, then you must move from the opponent's off the board into your opponent's home and cannot make any other moves until you are not in jail.
19:01:34 <zzo38> You can pass if you have no legal moves; otherwise you must move.
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19:03:20 <zzo38> Another feature of the game (not always used) is doubling cube. You can offer to double the bet and if your opponent accepts, the game continues and however wins earns double points. If your opponent declines, then he loses the game instantly.
19:03:32 <Arc_Koen> what do you mean "not always used"? :(
19:04:21 <zzo38> I mean sometimes backgammon is played without the doubling cube rule, such as if you are not counting the score. Usually doubling cube rule is used, though.
19:04:39 <Sgeo> "Backgammon has an established opening theory, although it is less detailed than that of games like chess."
19:04:50 <Sgeo> That kind of annoys me
19:04:57 <Sgeo> Maybe I don't like opening theory
19:06:02 <itidus21> one way to think about games is to see them as falling into 2 categories, win or not-win
19:06:52 <Arc_Koen> Sgeo: you really don't need to study opening theory to start playing backgammon
19:07:12 <Arc_Koen> even if you want to progress, i don't think the opening is the best thing to study
19:08:12 <itidus21> one thing games have in common is that after the player-decisions and rules and random elements have all been processed, the final result is win, lose, or draw
19:08:50 <itidus21> i am interested in games where the final resuilt isn't win, lose or draw
19:08:55 <zzo38> Sometimes there is also the score.
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19:09:15 <zzo38> Other times both players can win, or both lose, or something else, too.
19:09:24 <zzo38> Depending on the game.
19:09:52 <itidus21> zzo38: yeah i am new to the reality of it
19:11:22 <Arc_Koen> well in go tournaments in europe, if there is a dispute and both players are showing bad faith, the referee can decide to have them both loose
19:11:53 <zzo38> In any tournament it is possible for both sides to be disqualified, I think.
19:12:06 <itidus21> i think it is rare that the outcome of a game actually affects someones life
19:12:49 <zzo38> If it is Washizu Mahjong then you will win/lose millions of yen and also your blood.
19:13:14 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: they are not disqualified, they just lose one game
19:13:39 <itidus21> zzo38: ok so i am wrong 2 out of 2 of my claims so far!
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19:14:13 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: O, they are not disqualified. I thought it was.
19:14:39 <itidus21> but, that being said, in real casinos if you will millions can you just walk out unhassled?
19:15:21 <itidus21> or do you need some kind of threat if they don't pay up?
19:16:19 <itidus21> i can sort of imagine that its a bit like insurance companies which make their money by not paying out
19:16:38 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: well, I think you can be disqualified for a few other reasons, such as making a deal with your opponent or stuff like that
19:17:25 <Arc_Koen> those kind of things happen a lot more with chess tournaments
19:17:52 <itidus21> zzo38: i have no idea since i have never gambled > $100 :P
19:18:33 <zzo38> I have never gambled > $100 either. Nor have I ever gambled at all in a casino, and I do not intend to.
19:19:08 <itidus21> well i only played blackjack a few times in melbourne
19:19:23 <zzo38> Did they tell you to go away?
19:19:31 <zzo38> The casino owners are always allowed to tell you to go away.
19:19:50 <Arc_Koen> "then I was thrown out because I knew how to play"
19:19:51 <itidus21> no i guess i was looking sober at that time
19:20:17 <itidus21> no no i wasnt thrown out... it was more because my friend was a gambler type who loved to throw his money away
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19:20:37 <itidus21> somehow some people get satisfied by emptying their pockets
19:20:50 <itidus21> like it makes them feel sick to save money
19:21:05 <kmc> "i don't think that's quite right"
19:21:15 <Arc_Koen> well, if you save money up and you still have some at the moment you die, then you could say it's wasted
19:21:28 <kmc> perhaps some of these people exist, but i don't think it describes the typical non-pathological gambler
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19:22:01 <itidus21> kmc: well.. its not really casino gambling, more the poker machines
19:22:15 <kmc> "poker" machines are basically slots right?
19:22:30 <zzo38> Poker machines are like slot machines except you can select which cards to discard.
19:22:50 <itidus21> hmm well... in australia for some reaosn they call slot machines poies
19:23:08 <kmc> 'That's an odd name. I'd have called them "chazzwazzers".'
19:23:57 <itidus21> you can play slot machines more or less anywhere in australia
19:25:23 <kmc> in some parts of the USA they have slot machines in gas stations and airports and such
19:25:28 <kmc> nevada, and indian reservations
19:25:37 <Phantom_Hoover> So can you max out your luck stat and make a killing on the slot machines like in New Vegas.
19:25:40 <itidus21> well.. they have them everywhere here... and also brothels
19:26:06 <itidus21> what else can you expect from convicts
19:26:40 <itidus21> well when i say everywhere i don't mean literally everywhere
19:27:00 <itidus21> but mostly if you can go there to drink
19:27:39 <fizzie> We "always" have slot machines in gas stations, it's kind of a staple. Those, and quite a few bars.
19:27:52 <fizzie> There's also the Pajatso thing.
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19:28:08 <fizzie> "Payazzo (or pajatso) is a traditional Finnish gambling arcade game, dating back to the 1920s, when it was introduced into Finland from Germany. The object of payazzo is to flick a coin into one of the winning slots. When the attempt is successful, the machine rewards the player with a couple of coins. If the attempt is unsuccessful, the player loses the flicked coin."
19:28:20 <zzo38> Yes I have read about that on Wikipedia.
19:28:33 <zzo38> There are some similarity to pachinko.
19:29:08 <fizzie> http://www.suomenpeliautomaattihistoriallinenseura.fi/pics/timo/50pjasso.jpg -- that's the one from the 70s, I've seen those.
19:29:34 <fizzie> There's also very little similarity to a pinball machine.
19:29:58 <zzo38> Pachinko is more similarity to pinball than pajatso is, though.
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19:30:07 <fizzie> Yes, I think there's a ball?
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19:30:13 <zzo38> Yes, there is a ball.
19:30:29 <fizzie> The Finnish gambling monopoly company has a web version of the game; you drag a finger, and then release, and it flicks the coin and animates something that looks a bit like physics.
19:30:36 <fizzie> I'm reasonably sure the output is randomized, though.
19:30:51 <fizzie> Since it would be pretty trivial to move mouse in an exactly identical way.
19:31:12 <Arc_Koen> ok, I'm very sad to declare this but I just created a brainfuck derivative (on the plus side, it's functional instead of imperative)
19:31:26 <kmc> it's probably pretty different from brainfuck then
19:31:30 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Duck, I'm sure there's a brick coming.
19:31:36 <itidus21> you mean that you're reasonably sure that an online gambling system does not allow the client software to control the outcome? :P :P
19:32:48 <itidus21> i wonder how they pull that off
19:33:28 <zzo38> Shuffle a standard deck of cards and deal thirty cards in six rows of five, the first row face up and the rest face down. You can turn over a face-down card from any row or leave all the cards alone. If you turn over a card, you can look at it and must continue so that the total number of cards turned is the number of the row (1 for the first face-down row, 2 for the second face-down row, all 5 for the last row).
19:34:07 <zzo38> You may turn cards from only one row; not from multiple rows. After doing so, cards from the initially face-up row in the same column as turned cards are turned face-down. Scoring is then as in video poker.
19:34:55 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Is there some kind of a theoretical reason why not just assign individual numbers in the order of the (s that start the particular function.
19:35:00 <zzo38> Assume that the player has X-ray vision and can see all the cards even before they are turned. Further assume that there are no taxes, service charges, or comp bonuses. What is the probability of winning?
19:35:22 <zzo38> How much money can the player expect to win or lose on average?
19:35:51 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: well I don't like the idea that a function's number depends on the numbers of functions which it cannot call
19:36:23 <Arc_Koen> hmmm ok I think I have an idea
19:36:35 <zzo38> What would it be if the player did not have X-ray vision?
19:37:23 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: what about (1) (2) ((6)(7)3) (4) (((8)6)(7)5) main
19:37:39 <Arc_Koen> so a function number is "the smallest available number"
19:39:26 <fizzie> I'm personally okay with that, but then again I would've been okay with just consecutive unique numbers too.
19:39:34 <oerjan> @tell atriq <atriq> A bit slow, but I think that's a problem with Fueue <-- I think programs like my thue-morse program could be sped up a lot if you kept track of long subsequences of non-triggering elements (e.g. blocks)
19:40:03 <oerjan> @tell atriq So that you could skip around the parts of the queue that are presently doing nothing
19:40:05 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Not related, but was your latest fueue.c around?
19:43:33 <Arc_Koen> oh, I did not fix the too many arguments thing
19:47:04 <fizzie> Oh, one other remark I was thinking about were the // comments. They're legal C99 (and GNU Canything), but many folks still advocate being compatible with C90/C89, at least if not making use of any of the more substantial C99 features.
19:47:43 <kmc> i think they're legal in MSVC too, even though they refuse to implement all of C99
19:47:46 <kmc> not sure though
19:47:54 <kmc> you should just write C code which can also be compiled as C++ ;)
19:48:10 <pikhq_> I have a nicer policy.
19:48:15 <pikhq_> Don't support broken C compilers.
19:48:18 <Arc_Koen> the // comments are not legal in C89??
19:48:26 <kmc> FreeFull: correct
19:48:27 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: No, only /* comments */ are.
19:48:36 <pikhq_> FreeFull: Much valid C code is not valid C++ code.
19:49:41 <pikhq_> No implicit casts from void* basically jacks up idiomatic C.
19:49:47 <kmc> almost all compilers support // comments, though
19:49:53 <fizzie> The fueue.c code seems to be mostly valid C++, except for four instances of relying on the implicit conversion of void* to Token*.
19:51:12 <Arc_Koen> wow, and /* */ comments cannot be nested
19:51:21 <FreeFull> Also, C code that uses new or delete as a name for something won't be valid C++
19:51:31 <kmc> people aren't always clear when talking about "what's in C" versus "what's supported by my C compiler"
19:51:34 <kmc> Arc_Koen: yeah
19:51:46 <FreeFull> Arc_Koen: You didn't know that?
19:51:48 <kmc> nestable multi-line comments are somewhat rare
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19:52:04 <kmc> i don't think any of the languages which use /* comments */ support nesting
19:52:07 <kmc> (correct me if wrong)
19:52:17 <kmc> haskell, ocaml, and lua do
19:52:28 <Arc_Koen> FreeFull: I may have known it a few years ago but somehow it wasn't flag as "relevant" by my brain
19:52:33 <kmc> wait, lua doesn't
19:53:07 <Arc_Koen> however I certainly did not know that // was not C89
19:53:10 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: clang from llvm 3.0 with -Weverything has four things to say (ignoring the printf argument thing), and they're all fairly minor: 1) the 'break;' after 'return;' for H is unreachable; 2) and 3) it's going to add padding to your structures; 4) 'error_empty' could be declared with 'noreturn'.
19:53:10 <kmc> there is a subtle difference between the way comments work in haskell and ocaml
19:53:25 <kmc> {- " -} is a valid Haskell comment but (* " *) is not a valid ocaml comment
19:53:47 <kmc> (* "*)" *) is a valid ocaml comment but {- "-}" -} is not a valid Haskell comment
19:54:29 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at end o...
19:54:47 <Arc_Koen> kmc: and the reference manual lists (*) as the multiplication function, but (*) actually starts a comment
19:54:58 <kmc> Arc_Koen: it does?
19:55:45 <lambdabot> <no location info>: unterminated `{-'
19:55:51 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `-'
19:56:15 <oerjan> hm i guess record notation cannot start with - inside
19:56:27 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `3'
19:56:37 <Arc_Koen> kmc: well apparently http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-ocaml-4.00/libref/Pervasives.html lists it as ( * ), but my pdf version lists it as (*)
19:56:37 <kmc> > do {-3 <- return -3; return True}
19:56:38 <lambdabot> <no location info>: unterminated `{-'
19:56:41 <kmc> > do { -3 <- return -3; return True}
19:56:43 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> GHC.Bool.Bool)
19:57:10 <kmc> fuck you lambdabot, die in a hole
19:57:29 <oerjan> i'd imagine you don't actually want return -3
19:57:32 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: I will remove the useless break; (which is a remainder of the halts variable), but I'm not sure what you mean with 2) and 3)
19:57:35 <kmc> the whole "haha j/k not actually standard haskell" thing has gone from amusing to fucking obnoxious
19:58:15 <kmc> lambdabot is doing irreparable harm to people attempting to learn Haskell
19:58:18 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Types.Char)
19:58:34 <kmc> it's as if the experts are playing an inside joke on the beginners
19:58:37 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Well, it means just what it says: the compiler is going to add some padding there. Such is life.
19:58:44 <kmc> making lambdabot confusing for their own idle amusement
19:59:15 <FreeFull> > takeWhile (<3) $ read "I love you" :: Integer
19:59:16 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Integer.Type.Integer'
19:59:39 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Technically, you can rearrange members to make it more unlikely, but all the padding is platform-specific. And of course the padding doesn't hurt, except for possibly (probably not, in this case) making the structure objects slightly bigger than they could be.
19:59:43 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: as in "(pad something out) lengthen a speech or piece of writing with unnecessary material."?
19:59:57 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: As in, put some empty space in-between the members.
20:00:13 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: "padding struct 'struct Queue' with 4 bytes to align 'top'" and "padding struct 'struct Token' with 7 bytes to align 'block'".
20:00:18 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: you're not using unions, so all discussion of optimal padding is moot :)
20:00:26 <fizzie> Yes, that is also true.
20:00:29 <Arc_Koen> yes that's what I was thinking oerjan
20:00:48 <fizzie> It would be a reasonable thing to do.
20:00:52 <FreeFull> > takeWhile (<3) $ [ read "I love you" :: Integer ]
20:00:53 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
20:01:07 <FreeFull> > takeWhile (<3) $ [ read "123" :: Integer ]
20:01:17 <kmc> int x[] = {-1}; int main() { printf("Hello, C!\n"); } /* -}(); main = putStrLn "Hello, Haskell!" -- */
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20:01:44 <FreeFull> Code that's both valid C and Haskell
20:01:57 <kmc> not just now, a while ago
20:02:05 <FreeFull> Wait, the main() doesn't have a return statement!
20:02:09 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to atriq.
20:02:17 <kmc> yeah it's not quite "valid C" in this condensed one-line form
20:02:20 <pikhq_> FreeFull: Not mandatory.
20:02:29 <kmc> of course you can make it into a totally valid C program that does anything you want
20:02:30 <pikhq_> FreeFull: In C99, there's an implicit return 0; at the end of main.
20:02:36 <kmc> pikhq_: really? huh.
20:02:50 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: C11 (and, again, GNU C earlier) adds the "anonymous union" feature, which would let you put in union { int val; char fun; Queue block; }; -- without a name -- as a member of struct Token, and then in Token t refer to the field as simply t.val, t.fun or t.block. But I wouldn't really recommend that.
20:03:02 <kmc> FreeFull: I wrote one that's C, Haskell, Python, POSIX shell, Brainfuck, and DOS .COM program
20:03:06 <kmc> others here have done even more
20:03:50 <atriq> In K&R C, I have no idea what's going on
20:03:50 <lambdabot> atriq: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:03:54 <lambdabot> oerjan said 24m 20s ago: <atriq> A bit slow, but I think that's a problem with Fueue <-- I think programs like my thue-morse program could be sped up a lot if you kept track of long subsequences of
20:03:54 <lambdabot> non-triggering elements (e.g. blocks)
20:03:54 <lambdabot> oerjan said 23m 51s ago: So that you could skip around the parts of the queue that are presently doing nothing
20:04:09 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb.
20:04:15 <fizzie> kmc: On the other hand, C99 also makes all those "main() { blah; }" programs, that used to be invalid due to missing return, instead invalid due to deprecating the "implicit int" feature.
20:04:17 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Ngevd.
20:04:27 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to atriq.
20:04:41 <FreeFull> Implicit int made for some interesting stuff
20:06:03 <kmc> ghc will also warn that the function 'int' has non-exhaustive patterns and isn't used
20:06:07 <kmc> but you can fix these things as well
20:06:08 <fizzie> "auto mobile;" is no longer a valid int variable. :/
20:06:22 <kmc> "auto fellatio;"
20:07:18 <FreeFull> auto mobile = 0; would be valid C++11
20:07:38 <FreeFull> Maybe make it auto mobile =0; and pretend =0 is a duck
20:10:01 <oerjan> if it walks like a duck it might be an automobile
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20:10:27 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: so now it's all gonna be q->top->val->fun?
20:11:05 <Arc_Koen> that sounds unreasonably too much arrow populated (uh, maybe the last arrow was supposed to be a dot, but still)
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20:13:29 * oerjan has no idea whether that's good practice
20:14:27 <fizzie> oerjan: I've seen one-letter union names in that context.
20:14:38 <fizzie> Though I would've put in "d" as in data.
20:14:39 <Arc_Koen> I just used search and replace to correct everything and I'm pretty sure that's a very bad thing to do
20:15:23 <Arc_Koen> gcc doesn't seem to mind, though
20:15:54 <oerjan> on the bright side, it'll still be much less verbose than java.
20:16:15 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Did you notice my anonymous-union comment? It's meant exactly to reduce the dottiness.
20:16:26 <kmc> unions considered harmful
20:16:36 <oerjan> kmc: FILTHY CAPITALIST
20:17:04 <fizzie> Whoops, missing a name there.
20:17:06 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: I did, but you also said you would perhaps not recommand it
20:17:06 <kmc> yeah the united states of america would never stand for that
20:17:19 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Right, just checking.
20:18:18 <Arc_Koen> aaaaaaaaaaaand )$2[)$--------2~)~~[)[)~(~[~[$~H~]~)%+~91-):]~1+:])]]~[$~H~])%+-91)[65][65] is a cat
20:18:35 <oerjan> ...that may not be entirely correct.
20:19:53 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: You can add macros, but that's probably even worse. There's quite a few headers that do stuff like http://sprunge.us/FRJL
20:20:33 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: what, you don't believe me? http://pastebin.com/0UGHnVdY
20:21:08 <fizzie> (The macro is there so that you can have struct in6_addr x; f(x.s6_addr); and have that expand to struct in6_addr x; f(x.__in6_u.__u6_addr8); but of course the macro will expand the token "s6_addr" absolutely anywhere, not just when it's being used to access a member.
20:21:20 <fizzie> They're counting on nobody having any other 's6_addr's except as a member.
20:21:37 <fizzie> But a #define val u.val is kind of horreeble.
20:22:01 <Arc_Koen> oh right korea has a k in english
20:22:15 <oerjan> those darn core people
20:22:31 <atriq> Arc_Koen, what's your native language?
20:22:43 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: LEARN TO SPELL YOUR COUNTRY CONSISTENTLY
20:22:54 <oerjan> I'M SURE IT'S YOUR FAULT
20:23:25 <oerjan> oklo: ALSO WHY THE SHORT NICK IT'S AGAINST NATURE I TELL YA
20:23:29 <kmc> isn't it called 한국
20:24:07 <Arc_Koen> see, the lower part of 한 looks way more like a C than a K
20:25:41 <oerjan> although istr the korean alphabet puts the letters top down in the characters
20:26:31 <fizzie> 한 is a dude in a hat using a computer with a wall-mounted monitor, right?
20:26:58 <atriq> Korea. Only culture that would have a letter for that.
20:27:23 <fizzie> And then use it in their own name.
20:28:02 <oerjan> just to clarify what i meant, iiuc 한 is three letters.
20:29:38 <kmc> yep http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Hangeul.svg
20:29:46 <Arc_Koen> reading them counterclockwise sounds like koc
20:29:59 <Arc_Koen> so that would be kocea afterall
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20:30:20 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, the letters being "dude in a hat", "using a keyboard/mouse", and "wall-mounted monitor". It's nice that they can combine them like that.
20:31:03 * oerjan swatteth fizzie -----###
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20:42:42 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: oh did you fix the bugs with introducing union? i think i realized what happened at that 2-3 line change
20:43:10 <Arc_Koen> apparently there's something wrong with : and $
20:43:26 <oerjan> could you paste the current code?
20:43:37 <Arc_Koen> I thought it was pushfun and pushnum which had a problem, but they work fine when parsing the program at the beginning
20:46:04 <Arc_Koen> :[+ 2 3])) gives ))[ 0 0][+ 2 3]
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20:47:46 <atriq> The "dude in a hat" symbol looks like Terezi's symbol upside-down
20:48:09 <atriq> After a while, everything is Homestuck.
20:48:38 <Arc_Koen> well, now that i'm using unions the "initToken" function doesn't make any sense any longer
20:48:53 <Arc_Koen> but it shouldn't be harmful either anyway
20:49:12 <oerjan> which i think may be the main culprit
20:49:35 <oerjan> delete lines 483-484, replace 492-494 with something branching on the what
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20:52:27 <oerjan> yeah the rest of the places with val in look ok
20:52:28 <fizzie> oerjan: It's legal to just assign the union.
20:52:54 <oerjan> fizzie: yes. but you need to do the special copying for blocks
20:53:16 <fizzie> oerjan: Disclaimer: didn't look at code.
20:53:28 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: so you could just have one case for blocks and another for the rest (which can just copy the whole union)
20:57:39 <Arc_Koen> well at least it prints the alphabet
20:58:11 <Arc_Koen> the international whaling commission?
20:58:19 <oerjan> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/
20:59:22 <fizzie> The irregular whaling commission sounds alarming.
21:00:29 <oerjan> i suggest you bring it up with the international webcomic
21:02:07 <atriq> I need to abscond and...
21:02:14 <atriq> What's the opposite of absconding?
21:02:20 <lambdabot> *** "abscond" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
21:02:21 <lambdabot> v 1: run away; usually includes taking something or somebody
21:02:21 <lambdabot> along; "The thief made off with our silver"; "the
21:02:21 <lambdabot> accountant absconded with the cash from the safe" [syn:
21:02:22 <lambdabot> {abscond}, {bolt}, {absquatulate}, {decamp}, {run off}, {go
21:03:51 <fizzie> Antonyms of verb abscond
21:04:06 <oerjan> we shall absquatulate forthwith
21:04:26 <atriq> I think it'd be incond
21:04:41 <Sgeo> I have decided to play Backgammon
21:05:01 <oerjan> pretty sure the s isn't part of the preposition
21:05:46 <fizzie> oerjan: "Etymology: < Middle French, French abscondre to hide oneself (1180 in Old French, used reflexively), to hide, conceal (a thing) (1308) or its etymon classical Latin abscondere to hide, conceal, to bury, immerse, to engulf, to keep secret < abs- (see ab- prefix) + condere to put together, to stow (see condite adj.2)."
21:06:01 <fizzie> In particular, < abs- (see ab- prefix) + condere.
21:07:24 <fizzie> They say it's not from "sconding" anything.
21:07:45 <oerjan> i guess ab- is just weird. :(
21:07:55 <oerjan> (sometimes it turns into just a-)
21:08:26 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ab-#Latin indeed
21:08:41 <fizzie> "In classical Latin, ab- became ā- before p- , b- , m- , and v- (compare e.g. āvertere to turn away: see avert v.), and alternated with au- before f- (compare e.g. auferre to carry away: see ablate v.; compare aufer v.), and with abs- before c- , q- , and t- (compare e.g. abscondere to put away, conceal: see abscond v.)." (OED)
21:09:23 <fizzie> (Then it continues quite a lot.)
21:10:53 <atriq> Right, to make my Fueue implementation more speedy
21:11:07 <atriq> I have added another constructor to the FueueItem datatype
21:11:22 <atriq> FCache :: Seq FueueItem -> FueueItem
21:11:33 <atriq> I'm really just groping in the dark.
21:11:52 <atriq> Also, I'm not using that format for defining constructors
21:12:00 <atriq> It's just FCache (Seq FueueItem)
21:12:45 <atriq> The idea is that when an FCache is encountered by the execution processes, it can be ignored with the exception of the very end of it, examined using viewr.
21:13:07 <atriq> Actually, not true.
21:13:15 <atriq> I think the beginning needs to be examined sometimes too
21:13:50 <atriq> Man, this is going to make run double in size
21:13:59 <oerjan> the beginning needs to be examined only by the previous functions
21:14:13 <oerjan> yes, it will probably slow down stuff when it's not needed
21:14:26 <oerjan> you also need to look at the _two_ last elements.
21:14:35 <atriq> I'm really just groping in the dark here
21:15:20 <oerjan> and you need to pack things into those Caches
21:15:32 <atriq> Yes, I was getting to thet
21:16:33 <atriq> Actually, this is an awful idea.
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21:17:56 <pikhq_> Hmm. With the LuaJIT FFI, Lua becomes a decent language for interacting with C libraries.
21:21:53 <oerjan> oh wait i think you actually _do_ need to look only at the last element
21:22:47 <oerjan> because every case where a function might take two arguments it either does not depend on the type of the second, or the first required type is unstable
21:24:34 <oerjan> (the former: ~ < the latter: + * / $)
21:24:52 <atriq> $ is in both categories
21:31:03 <atriq> I don't need to check for numbers in a cache either
21:35:37 <kmc> pikhq_: how does that compare to Python ctypes?
21:36:26 <oerjan> whenever a value doesn't get executed, it can be added to a following cache.
21:36:54 <oerjan> or become a single-value cache, if there isn't one
21:37:17 <atriq> I was thinking a preceeding cache
21:37:37 <fizzie> kmc: Or JAVA JNA! I'm sure that'd make a decent language too!
21:37:43 <atriq> They could even be merged?
21:37:52 <kmc> "java isn't an acronym"
21:38:09 <atriq> Java Ain't Very Acronym-y
21:38:16 <fizzie> At least JNA is. I got maybe too excited!
21:38:16 <oerjan> except a preceding cache has just been executed so it is possible that it no longer stable.
21:38:55 -!- atriq has changed nick to atrir.
21:39:00 <oerjan> so i think merging with a following cache is more sound.
21:39:02 <kmc> hm, i have used JNI but not JNA
21:39:13 <atrir> I'm going to go to sleep now, I think.
21:39:15 <oerjan> and of course a cache can be merged with a following one.
21:39:17 <fizzie> To give credit where it's due, JNA looked like a more reasonable FFI approach than JNI, especially considering the use-case of interfacing to existing libraries.
21:39:17 <atrir> That would be a good idea.
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21:40:09 <kmc> "you can't use Java, you can only leverage it"
21:40:58 <fizzie> 3. leverage, leveraging -- (investing with borrowed money as a way to amplify potential gains (at the risk of greater losses))
21:41:19 <kmc> but it's also a synonym for "use" in US business-speak
21:42:13 <kmc> ("atrir"+4)--
21:43:25 <kmc> mprotect("atrir" & ~0xfff, 4096, 0777);
21:44:04 * oerjan wonders if that even makes sense
21:44:24 <kmc> mprotect(0, ~0, 0777);
21:44:48 <kmc> oerjan: well POSIX only guarantees mprotect() on pages obtained from mmap()
21:44:58 <kmc> and it has a hardcoded page size of 4kB
21:45:04 <kmc> but it will probably work on Linux on most platforms :3
21:45:19 <fizzie> I was about to ask "what, POSIX has a hardcoded page size?"
21:45:25 <oerjan> today's yafgc spoiler: so the devils need to save the zombies which are currently attacking them and apparently winning...
21:46:14 <fizzie> I think Linux/SPARC does 8k pages.
21:47:13 <fizzie> include/asm/elf_64.h:#define ELF_EXEC_PAGESIZE PAGE_SIZE
21:47:13 <fizzie> include/asm/elf_32.h:#define ELF_EXEC_PAGESIZE 4096
21:47:13 <fizzie> include/asm/param.h:#define EXEC_PAGESIZE 8192 /* Thanks for sun4's we carry baggage... */
21:47:32 <fizzie> Well, there are at least some 8ks somewhere in it.
21:47:45 <fizzie> Kconfig: default SPARC64_PAGE_SIZE_8KB
21:47:45 <fizzie> Kconfig:config SPARC64_PAGE_SIZE_8KB
21:47:45 <fizzie> Kconfig:config SPARC64_PAGE_SIZE_64KB
21:47:52 <fizzie> Forgot the _ in the middle.
21:48:31 <kmc> er, and 0777 is wrong
21:50:42 <fizzie> Heh, that became PROT_READ | PROT_WRITE | PROT_EXEC | PROT_SEM | a couple other bits. (At least it didn't have both PROT_GROWSDOWN and PROT_GROWSUP as well.)
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21:54:36 <fizzie> kmc: "atrir" & ~0xfff is also a constraint violation.
21:54:39 * oerjan "fixes" his sandal with tape
21:55:11 <kmc> GROWSBOTHWAYS
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21:55:55 <fizzie> But I do wonder if there's a piece of code with the line int strings = "dummy"; strings &= ~0xfff; mprotect(strings, 4096, 7); /* make all string literals writable */ in it.
21:56:56 <fizzie> Perhaps running a nuclear reactor somewhere.
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22:12:03 <Braber01> How would I convert a bf [ ] into path /\
22:19:26 <oerjan> no such esolang on the wiki
22:19:37 <Braber01> Yeah the wiki isn't it's called PATH
22:21:08 <Braber01> yeah the wiki doesn't exactly explain how to convert [ and ] into path
22:21:52 <Braber01> It confuses the fuck out of me.
22:24:42 <oerjan> bloody irssi autoconnecting lines
22:25:52 <Braber01> yeah that didn't quite make sense to me. esp when I need something like a value of 57. and don't want to put 57 +'s in a row.
22:25:58 <oerjan> oh wait that method isn't composable
22:26:19 <oerjan> erm that's a problem for brainfuck as well...
22:26:25 <zzo38> What is the "atrir" & ~0xfff consrtaint violation?
22:31:58 <Braber01> I'm going to be right back I'm going to hand trace this program to see If I can make sense of it.
22:33:55 <fizzie> I had a PATH something, I think.
22:34:01 <fizzie> Some conversion or another.
22:34:08 <oerjan> Braber01: i can see that the example on the wiki is confusing because it doesn't exit the loop going rightwards, which means it's hard to nest them...
22:34:49 <oerjan> in fact it doesn't exit the loop the same way when exiting on the first iteration as on a later one
22:35:03 <fizzie> (Maybe it wasn't PATH.)
22:35:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:35:49 <kmc> Port Authority Trans-Hudson
22:35:56 -!- Braber01 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
22:36:41 <fizzie> Oh, right, it was that Beam thing instead.
22:37:57 <shachaf> I don't explicitly know of anyone using it, but then I suppose the point of it is that I wouldn't.
22:38:26 <fizzie> I thought PATH was some kind of a system of trains. Is that what that is?
22:39:01 <shachaf> This is probably one of the ways that I make myself less secure by doing everything in "Incognito Mode".
22:39:37 <kmc> it's a rapid transit system which runs between Manhattan and the close parts of New Jersey
22:40:26 <kmc> it goes through a not-quite-tunnel under the Hudson River
22:40:42 <kmc> more like a cast iron tube that they shoved through the silt on the river bottom
22:41:05 <kmc> well, four of them
22:43:45 <kmc> in 2001 one of the stations was destroyed when two large buildings fell on it
22:43:59 <fizzie> I think I've heard of that.
22:44:02 <shachaf> kmc: I've noticed the following phenomenon: If I open a fresh Firefox Private Browsing window and go to some non-SSL websites -- say http://www.facebook.com/ -- at home, it'll redirect to the HTTPS version.
22:44:15 <shachaf> In several non-home public-WiFi places, it doesn't do that.
22:44:27 <kmc> that's awkward
22:44:32 <shachaf> Are there reasonable explanations other than "someone tampering with my traffic"?
22:44:44 <kmc> i will try to think of one
22:44:49 <kmc> this is the problem which HSTS is supposed to solve
22:44:55 <kmc> i only learned about HSTS yesterday, so good timing :)
22:45:12 <shachaf> Well, your question reminded me of it.
22:45:14 <oerjan> @tell Braber01 i edited the PATH example, the new method should be more consistent
22:45:49 <shachaf> Maybe they're ABC-testing their HTTPS thing and my home IP happens to fall in one group while some other IPs happen to fall in the other.
22:46:00 <kmc> hm, "SandForce SSDs heavily rely on compression for faster speeds and less write amplification"
22:46:08 <kmc> that's unfortunate with full disk encryption
22:47:59 <shachaf> I wonder whther the property that "you can tell if sector A = sector B" is important.
22:48:15 <shachaf> And how much performance it's worth, if it comes to that.
22:48:21 <kmc> you mean using ECB essentially?
22:48:39 <shachaf> Well, on the sector level.
22:48:50 <kmc> well the performance on random data is still good
22:48:54 <shachaf> Or maybe something bigger than a sector.
22:49:10 <kmc> you take like a 2x hit to sequential write performance
22:49:14 <shachaf> TRIM is another thing that presumably leaks information which you do want.
22:49:42 <kmc> but the Intel 520 still beats the fastest comparable non-SandForge SSD at random writes
22:49:51 <kmc> and isn't much slower on sequential writes
22:50:13 <kmc> and read performance isn't affected
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22:51:50 <shachaf> kmc: "For example, an attacker can abort an SSH connection or an HTTPS connection by forging a single TCP Reset packet."
22:52:05 <shachaf> This seems like another property Mosh wouldn't have.
22:52:15 <kmc> isn't there a sequence number issue there?
22:52:29 <shachaf> Presumably a MITM could do it.
22:52:42 <pikhq_> Comcast did that to Bittorrent once upon a time.
22:52:42 <shachaf> Or someone on a public WiFi network.
22:52:56 <kmc> the MITM can also just decide to stop relaying your packets
22:53:20 <shachaf> Someone who can read your packets can do it.
22:53:27 <kmc> and yeah, you can't MITM Mosh at the transport layer, because the transport is encrypted
22:53:33 <kmc> probably IPSec also solves this problem
22:53:48 <kmc> and UDP-based VPNs
22:54:02 <kmc> (encrypted and authenticated, i should say)
22:54:08 <shachaf> And CurveCP (whose web page that quote comes from).
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23:07:19 <kmc> if mosh supported roaming on both ends, you could kill a connection by sending two packets
23:07:23 <kmc> i think i have explained this attack
23:08:11 <kmc> you could also insert yourself into an existing connection as a network layer MITM
23:08:43 <kmc> which could be useful for some esoteric attacks
23:12:00 <shachaf> Hey, GHC supports interruptible foreign calls?
23:12:24 <kmc> oh yeah, that's newish
23:12:27 <kmc> i don't remember t he details
23:14:08 <ion> How are they interrupted?
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23:44:03 <zzo38> I have added commands PRINTM, INPUTM, MESGM which is like PRINT, INPUT, MESG but is using C-style strings; this can be used if you are compiling a C code or LLVM code into RogueVM.
23:44:33 <ion> Wow. /usr/share/zsh-beta/functions/Completion/Unix/_make is insane. It parses Makefiles and expands variables and includes.
23:45:26 <zzo38> Is that for tab-completion or what?
23:49:04 <itidus21> zzo38: yay for 10 PRINT "Hello" 20 GOTO 10
23:50:02 <itidus21> ^HelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHello[...]
23:50:47 <zzo38> I know it is a BASIC program that will write Hello forever (with line breaks) but I don't know why you write this to me at now
23:51:05 <ion> > (unlines . repeat) "Hello"
23:51:07 <lambdabot> "Hello\nHello\nHello\nHello\nHello\nHello\nHello\nHello\nHello\nHello\nHell...
23:51:13 <itidus21> i think it is a special program in basic
23:52:54 <itidus21> it does nothing of value. while also being an infinite loop
23:54:04 <zzo38> If it is paper then it will instead waste all of the paper.
23:56:26 <itidus21> its much more fun than "Enter distance: " "Enter speed: " ... "The car travelled an average speed of no-fucking-idea"
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23:57:01 <itidus21> or even worse, a program which lets you enter student grades
00:02:39 <zzo38> I am looking at LLVM document, so that once they add a byte size specification it could compile into RogueVM.
00:05:03 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
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00:07:20 <Sgeo> "We request 16,000 random bytes of data from random.org. We then mix (using a bitwise XOR) those bytes with 16,000 internally generated pseudo-random bytes, in case there is a bias in the bytes from random.org. "
00:07:41 <Sgeo> Might the pseudorandomly-generated bytes be more problematic?
00:08:24 <zzo38> Sgeo: Either way, since they are not related to each other, it cannot cause more problem that they already have.
00:09:13 <oerjan> Sgeo: if random.org has no bias, and the internal ones have no dependency on them, then the result will have no bias (basically one time pad theory)
00:09:48 <Sgeo> Ah, that makes sense.
00:10:20 <zzo38> That is what I meant.
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01:53:18 <FreeFull> oerjan: But it's possible to take a biased source of entropy and unbias it
01:53:36 <FreeFull> Which random.org is guaranteed to do
01:53:37 <kmc> not only is it possible, it's a common CS interview question ;)
01:54:05 <kmc> you can turn independent flips of a biased coin into independent flips of a fair coin
01:54:22 <kmc> but i'm not sure what you can do with non-independent inputs
01:54:30 <oerjan> well assuming they're independent and equally distributed, that's easy
01:54:31 <FreeFull> Basically, if you get 01, that's a 1, if you've got 10, that's a 0 (or the other way around), if you get 11 or 00, you discard it
01:54:41 <kmc> depends on what the dependence is
01:54:51 <FreeFull> This will work as long as there is no correlation between consecutive bits
01:55:18 <kmc> i think you can do it a bit more efficiently, but yeah
01:55:46 <oerjan> not if even index bits have a different distribution than odd index bits >:)
01:56:19 <zzo38> If that is the only difference in distribution, then you can easily account for that, though.
01:57:25 <kmc> In Which Many True Things are Said.
01:58:11 <oerjan> And KMC Turns Inside Out.
01:58:46 <FreeFull> Of course, if the source is 010101010101010101010101 (strong correlation between bits) then it won't work at all
01:58:49 <shachaf> More efficiently by looking for 1100/0011/11110000/00001111/etc.?
01:59:07 <kmc> i don't remember
01:59:46 <shachaf> kmc: I heard Haswell is going to have a 56-bit address space.
01:59:50 <oerjan> FreeFull: that's not actually a correlation, or rather the expression would become 0/0 or something like that.
02:00:07 <shachaf> Not for people like sbahra who were using those bits!
02:00:10 <kmc> up from 48?
02:00:18 <kmc> yeah, well, the architecture tries to discourage you from doing that :)
02:00:22 <kmc> what was sbahra doing?
02:00:36 <shachaf> Something in concurrencykit
02:00:44 <FreeFull> oerjan: After 0, there is a 100% chance of 1
02:01:30 <shachaf> Apparently it's a big enough win that he's adding some runtime checks for whether those can be used or not.
02:01:51 <oerjan> FreeFull: the definition of corr(X,Y) makes that 0/0
02:02:10 <oerjan> FreeFull: the thing is you cannot correlate with something which doesn't actually _vary_.
02:02:56 <oerjan> another clue is that the odds and even bits are actually independent then.
02:03:26 <oerjan> which is the case whenever all probabilities are 0 or 1.
02:20:37 <zzo38> What instructions and other features do you think would be useful for virtual machine used for roguelike games and other similar grid based games?
02:21:52 -!- augur has joined.
02:22:03 <zzo38> The mouse button on my computer might be broken; sometimes when I push once it act as double clicked
02:23:12 <shachaf> Push it half, rather than once.
02:23:19 <shachaf> It'll count the half-click as a single click.
02:23:46 <zzo38> This mouse cannot go half. Also, I do not think that is the problem.
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02:25:51 <oerjan> damn i hate it when i've opened several tabs, taking great care to wait until each stops using cpu, and then _suddenly_ and old one wakes up and use it all up. and i cannot even find out which.
02:27:54 <oerjan> i recall a couple years ago or so, tabbed browsing used to be nice :(
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02:29:01 <zzo38> Why do you even open too many tabs at once? The problem is the browser is doing a lot of stuff because it is too complicated.
02:30:11 <oerjan> zzo38: but it shouldn't matter when each tab is not using cpu :(
02:31:01 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes they shouldn't be using CPU a lot anyways.
02:31:34 <oerjan> i just went through r/science on reddit and open all the tabs i wanted to read before reading most of them. and i had _just_ finished opening all when one of them started the thrashing
02:32:11 <zzo38> Turn off the features which cause that
02:32:30 <zzo38> Problem is, it is too complicated.
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02:33:16 <zzo38> Advertising blocker may be able to speed it up a bit and so can other things such as scripts off (or selectively), etc
02:37:27 <kmc> ministat is such a great program
02:37:33 <kmc> did someone here tell me about it?
02:38:46 <shachaf> I don't even own a television.
02:39:07 <shachaf> Oh, wait, not that sort of program.
02:39:56 <shachaf> There was a program called "Yes, Minister"
02:40:12 <shachaf> Followed by one called "Yes, Prime Minister"
02:40:17 <shachaf> If I remember correctly it was good.
02:42:56 <itidus21> it occured to me when i was watching that once that politics and quantum physics have a lot of common ground
02:44:47 <itidus21> well, i think that the trick to boiling an egg is filling a saucepan with regular tap water over a flame and adding an egg
02:45:14 <itidus21> this process really exemplifies the boiling of an egg
02:47:09 <itidus21> my dad explained to me once that the point was that they would say a lot without actually saying anything
02:47:21 <itidus21> the egg thing was a bad example of that
02:47:31 * oerjan thinks itidus21 just earned a hit with the saucepan ===\__/
02:47:45 <zzo38> A hot saucepan this time.
02:48:12 <oerjan> i don't have any eggs.
02:48:34 <itidus21> maybe i have been thinking about eggs..
02:50:40 <zzo38> Please tell me review of RogueVM specification I have added a lot I need you to tell me if anything is wrong or if I missed anything important!
02:50:51 <itidus21> zzo38: i think it was an episode where the prime minister learns that if he announces something publically, it becomes official
02:51:12 <itidus21> where i was thinking about quantum
02:51:19 <zzo38> O, so that is how it works.
02:51:44 <itidus21> i hope and pray that the egg is not in any episode
02:52:59 <itidus21> i was just randomly tv watching one day
02:53:10 <itidus21> a bit like bird watching except birds follow a schedule
02:55:19 <kmc> i just realized that today is an important holiday for my people (hippies)
02:55:43 <zzo38> What important holiday is that?
02:55:53 <kmc> the day on which the Man burns
02:56:55 <kmc> i'm doing important startuppy things here
02:57:12 <shachaf> What kind of hippie are you?
02:57:16 <kmc> if i had delayed my employment another week, i wouldn't be employee #1!
02:57:20 * shachaf doesn't actually know what "hippie" means.
02:57:27 <kmc> do you know how much, like, cachet comes with that?
02:57:38 <kmc> shachaf: a person you probably don't know
02:57:50 <shachaf> Do I know any of employee -3-0?
02:58:10 <kmc> i don't know who you know
02:59:02 <kmc> what kind of hippie am i? the kind who has already been to Burning Man once ;)
03:03:47 <kmc> shachaf: did you go to the stripe web ctf meetup?
03:04:03 <shachaf> I think I talked about it a bit while I was half-asleep in here yesterday.
03:04:08 <kmc> did they say anything about another CTF?
03:04:24 <shachaf> They talked as if they're planning to keep making them.
03:04:32 <shachaf> I don't remember whether they said anything concrete.
03:06:50 <shachaf> kmc: You should add the word "kentucky" to your vocabulary.
03:07:09 <shachaf> «KENTUCKY (adv.) Fitting exactly and satisfyingly. The cardboard box that slides neatly into an exact space in a garage, or the last book which exactly fills a bookshelf, is said to fit 'real nice and kentucky'.»
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03:15:54 <kmc> there's no escaping from ohio
03:16:33 <oerjan> Ohio! Washington? Nevada.
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03:40:25 <shachaf> kmc: 20:39 <@lexande_> hunpuns
03:45:15 <lexande_> i heard there was a discussion of frequent flyer miles but i guess i'm rather late for that
03:49:58 <oerjan> yeah, no miles for you!
03:59:48 <lexande_> that's okay, i think i have enough for my purposes
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04:23:53 <zzo38> You are going to have kilometres instead.
04:28:49 <lexande_> LAN's frequent flyer program uses kilometres actually
04:28:54 <lexande_> but i don't know of any other that does
04:29:39 <lexande_> even e.g. Air France and Lufthansa use miles
04:30:19 <zzo38> I do not like this word "tonne"/"metric ton".
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04:42:38 <kmc> rewards programs were invented in the USA because airlines were prohibited from changing prices directly, yeah?
04:42:59 <kmc> did a similar regulatory environment exist in other countries, or did they just copy the US rewards systems later?
04:44:36 <shachaf> Oh, I hadn't heard about that. Makes some sense.
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04:45:03 <lexande_> kmc, no the first frequent flyer programs were post-deregulation
04:48:46 <lexande_> when the airlines had government-granted monopolies on many routes it was not so necessary for them to go out of their way to incentivise customer loyalty
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04:51:30 <kmc> i had read that it was a backdoor mechanism for price competition
04:51:34 <kmc> but apparently this was inaccurate
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04:52:40 <lexande_> they did have other backdoor mechanisms back in the day, mostly in the form of inflight product
04:53:38 <lexande_> also those little houses you still get on KLM business class, because they weren't allowed to give customers "gifts" but they were allowed to give customers free alcohol
04:54:13 <lexande_> i guess those aren't really backdoor mechanisms, just competing on other things
04:54:36 <shachaf> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/KLM_DelftBlueHouses.PNG
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04:59:32 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
05:00:31 <shachaf> I didn't make that command.
05:00:37 <zzo38> Who was it who answered a few day ago about the RogueVM? At the time I did not write enough. Now I need help know if it is enough or if it is all wrong.
05:00:45 <zzo38> Because, if it is all wrong, then I should fix it please
05:02:02 <shachaf> `addquote <zzo38> Because, if it is all wrong, then I should fix it please
05:02:11 <HackEgo> 858) <zzo38> Because, if it is all wrong, then I should fix it please
05:02:20 <shachaf> Yesterday: 23:09 <zzo38> That still does not tell me what codes I need to make this internet service.
05:02:27 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you ever figure that out?
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05:04:54 <shachaf> http://www.npr.org/2012/09/01/160386904/in-bike-friendly-copenhagen-highways-for-cyclists
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05:08:07 <kmc> nytimes i think had an article about this recently
05:11:10 <elliott> kmc: please tell me you know http semantics
05:12:51 <elliott> pikhq: it's ok i solved it without you
05:12:51 <kmc> what about http?
05:12:56 <kmc> what are u talking about
05:12:59 <elliott> kmc: is it ok for /foo/bar to be 200 but /foo to be 404
05:13:06 <elliott> or should i make /foo and /foo/ be 403 instead or whatever
05:13:27 <pikhq> Kay, I'll just continue thinking about how much more performance I can squeeze out of this VM.
05:13:40 <kmc> elliott: i don't know; i'd be surprised if that's in the spec
05:13:54 <pikhq> I'm worried that to do much more I'll need a JIT.
05:13:58 <kmc> i think the interpretation of URLs as paths is pretty under-constrained
05:14:02 <pikhq> But I'm *so close* to beating LuaJIT without one!
05:14:07 <elliott> kmc: i don't care about spec, only what the cult ideology is
05:14:34 <kmc> ok well wrong cult
05:14:42 <kmc> ask someone who lives in SF and has tight jeans
05:14:48 <pikhq> elliott: Squeezing the clock cycles from an interpreter.
05:14:53 <elliott> pikhq: interpreters for what
05:15:15 <pikhq> elliott: Moderately artificial VM spec.
05:15:31 <kmc> cult of the least fixed point
05:16:06 <pikhq> I've already got it down to basically a threaded Forth interpreter in C.
05:17:55 <pikhq> zzo38: The interpreter's https://github.com/pikhq/cmako, the VM's from https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako
05:18:04 <lexande_> the least fixed point is a great prophet but not my messiah
05:18:11 <pikhq> John Earnest being the IRL name of RodgerTheGreat, who was last in here a few years ago.
05:22:36 <pikhq> It's been fun to work on, and at some point I got to where I need to start comparing any benchmarks I do with GCC and LuaJIT...
05:22:52 <pikhq> Slower than both, of course, but by less than you'd expect.
05:34:47 <shachaf> kmc: I saw a Union Pacific train when I was waiting at the Caltrain station!
05:35:43 <lexande_> one of those three freight trains a day, for the benefit of which CAHSR is going to spend many billions more than otherwise necessary
05:43:29 <kmc> creating jobs!
05:44:32 <kmc> freight trains are very long
05:44:43 <kmc> the ones that come through downtown Cambridge, MA on the surface are not so long
05:44:52 <kmc> because they go very slowly and people would get pissed off at waiting 20 minutes at the crossing
05:47:48 <lexande_> also because there isn't all that much freight moving by rail east of the hudson
05:51:41 <lexande_> well, especially not northeast of boston, which is the only place they'd be going if passing through downtown cambridge
05:53:23 <shachaf> My DVD was making worrying noises, so I'm `dvdbackup`ing it.
05:53:33 <shachaf> Now it's still making those noises but hopefully it'll only make them once.
05:53:42 <elliott> dvds don't make noises, shachaf!!!
05:54:50 <shachaf> What did I put in my DVD drive, then?
05:55:03 <kmc> but who was phone
05:55:43 <kmc> not 1.21G?
05:55:50 <elliott> he's trying to get out but he's too polite to bother you about it
05:56:01 <shachaf> Oops. I'm so sad I'm crying upwards.
05:56:14 <kmc> oh i am trapped inside shachaf's DVD drive
05:56:21 <kmc> trapped in fortune cookie factory
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06:12:12 <shachaf> This is making all sorts of exciting noises.
06:12:19 <shachaf> I wonder whether I could play music with it.
06:14:15 <kmc> sleep, ttyl
06:14:19 <kmc> good luck with your dvd
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06:17:39 <zzo38> Is the version numbering system of RogueVM good? (page 12)
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06:27:33 <zzo38> I wrote about the version numbers only a few minutes ago.
06:28:38 <zzo38> That isn't a very good answer.
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08:12:44 * itidus21 googles "crate", unsure which ones are actual crates and which ones are just rendered
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08:46:35 <Lumpio-> I don't think crates exist in real life
08:46:43 <Lumpio-> Didn't they just create the concept to have a handy structure to climb on in games?
08:47:05 <fizzie> Let's ask a dictionary.
08:47:07 <lambdabot> *** "crate" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
08:47:08 <lambdabot> n 1: a rugged box (usually made of wood); used for shipping
08:47:08 <lambdabot> 2: the quantity contained in a crate [syn: {crate}, {crateful}]
08:47:08 <lambdabot> v 1: put into a crate; as for protection; "crate the paintings
08:47:10 <lambdabot> before shipping them to the museum" [ant: {uncrate}]
08:47:19 <fizzie> Well, it doesn't mention games.
08:53:07 <oklo> your mother doesn't mention games
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09:31:12 <oklo> sorry that was kind of mean
09:44:54 <fizzie> It was kind of median.
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10:50:57 <atriq> data Something a :: Something a (Maybe (Ptr (Something a))) (Maybe (Ptr (Someting a)))
10:51:13 <atriq> I'm not sure why Ptrs
10:51:28 <atriq> data Something a :: Something a (Maybe (Something a)) (Maybe (Something a))
10:51:51 <atriq> left :: Something a -> Maybe (Something a); left (Something _ a _) = a
10:52:08 <atriq> right :: Something a -> Maybe (Something a); right (Something _ _ a) = a
10:53:07 <atriq> foo :: Something (); foo = Something () (Just foo) (Just foo)
10:58:19 <spirity> I've been playing magic the gathering
10:58:21 <spirity> does anyone else play this game?
10:58:28 <atriq> I'm more of a Sopio fan
10:58:53 <spirity> would you like to play a variant of chess with portals?
10:59:23 <atriq> Didn't kallisti do that a while back?
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11:00:00 <spirity> I was thinking of a few tweaks
11:00:55 <spirity> I wasn't sure what the queen should be
11:01:36 <spirity> it could be a piece that produces reflectors
11:01:43 <spirity> which are just little tokens. coins or dice or whatever.
11:02:26 <spirity> it would be interesting to have a special rule that enables you to revive old pieces
11:02:44 <shachaf> spirity: Can you just stick with one nick, please?
11:02:52 <spirity> yes. I will stick with this one.
11:03:33 <shachaf> Can you stick with one of the previous ones?
11:04:08 <atriq> Doesn't kallisti mean "for the fairest" or something in Greek?
11:05:23 <shachaf> You should try irc.efnet.org
11:06:20 <fizzie> That sounds illogical.
11:06:45 <fizzie> It's the Eris-Free network, after all.
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13:39:06 <itidus21> atriq: the last thought i had about chess was to take away the board, and play on some arbitrary real world terrain
13:40:52 <itidus21> an extension of that idea would be that anywhere on earth counts as the board
13:41:07 <atriq> "What are you doing in my house!?"
13:41:33 <atriq> "I'm trying to sleep!"
13:42:00 <atriq> "Hey, you didn't complain when Dan moved his rook into the Tate Modern"
13:42:12 <atriq> "Why on earth would he do that!?"
13:42:26 <atriq> "To pin my bishop against my queen so I couldn't check him."
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13:53:00 <itidus21> as the game of chess takes place on chessboard on mars surface, "what you're using insanely expensive computer equipment to play games?"
13:53:26 <itidus21> "don't worry, i will be a hero in 70 years"
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14:30:39 <Arc_Koen> "stalemate" "no! I was about to discover water under his rook!"
14:31:50 <Gregor> “If you know what I mean.”
14:36:58 <Arc_Koen> "talking about exploration rovers... I'm pretty sure I don't want to know what you mean"
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15:07:51 <fizzie> "Why are we talking all in quotes?"
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15:10:12 <atriq> "My name is Inigo Montoya"
15:10:16 <atriq> "You killed my father"
15:10:49 <atriq> Oh, we were still on this?
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15:35:59 <kmc> it turns out that upgrading X was actually useful
15:42:15 <fizzie> `runc int main(void) { char prog = 'X'; prog--; printf("downgraded X: %c(ayland)", prog); }
15:46:17 <atriq> `runc int main(void { int x = 10; printf("%d", (x-- * x--) + x--); }
15:46:41 <atriq> `runc int main(void) { int x = 10; printf("%d", (x-- * x--) + x--); }
15:47:13 <fizzie> What is this, some kind of undefinedness competition?
15:47:28 <atriq> That is EXACTLY what this is
15:53:44 <atriq> That's the same as GCC, for probably very simple reasons
15:54:34 <fizzie> I wouldn't be so sure that "GCC" (every version, every platform) does the same thing there.
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15:56:21 <Arc_Koen> atriq: in nandypants, what do you mean "Adds a to the output stream"?
15:56:37 <atriq> Oh, that's going a long way back
15:56:51 <kmc> what implementation is `runc?
15:57:07 <atriq> The contents of the cell pointed to in tape A, Arc_Koen
15:57:30 <atriq> In whatever format the implementer wants
15:57:30 <fizzie> kmc: It's just echo "$@" | gcc -x c - -o $t && $t.
15:57:49 <Arc_Koen> yes i got that, but what does the output stream do with it? print it as a 0 or 1? or wait to have 8 bits before printing it as a char?
15:58:24 <atriq> Implementation dependant
15:58:27 <fizzie> The !c in EgoBot has some kind of an unconditional main-wrapping around it.
15:58:30 <atriq> I never really thought about it?
15:58:32 <fizzie> !c int main(void) { printf("x\n"); }
15:59:08 <atriq> ! int main(void {printf("x\n");}; main
15:59:13 <atriq> !c int main(void {printf("x\n");}; main
16:00:18 <fizzie> I like ##c's candide's ,cc, it's got all kinds of stuff like a lot of guesswork about what code goes where, support for giving options, input, doing editing and s///'s on the program, gdb integration and whatnot.
16:01:01 <fizzie> If you don't generate any output, it produces a list of all locals of main by default.
16:01:16 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, you need to have brackets after main to call it..l.
16:01:30 <atriq> C is not something I am very good at
16:01:33 <atriq> !c int main(void {printf("x\n");}; main()
16:01:35 <fizzie> 19:01 <fizzie> ,cc int x = 10; int y = (x++ * x++) + x++;
16:01:36 <fizzie> 19:01 <candide> fizzie: [warning: operation on 'x' may be undefined [-Wsequence-point] warning: operation on 'x' may be undefined [-Wsequence-point]] <no output: x = 13; y = 110>
16:01:41 <atriq> !c int main(void) {printf("x\n");}; main()
16:01:56 <atriq> I missed a bracket
16:02:19 <fizzie> I would like to know what that actually compiled.
16:02:47 <Arc_Koen> atriq: you don't need to call main
16:02:55 <fizzie> Possibly a nested function inside the autogenerated main.
16:03:04 <atriq> Arc_Koen, in this implementation you do
16:03:12 <atriq> !c int main(void) {printf("x\n");}
16:03:31 <atriq> It runs C statements, not C programs
16:03:47 <fizzie> That's probably because it ends up as int main(void) { int main(void) { printf("x\n"); } } for !c.
16:07:38 <kmc> shachaf: Should I use my free EC2 micro instance for something?
16:07:45 <kmc> I guess I could move IRC and other chat to it
16:09:33 <pikhq> kmc: I'm tempted to do the same.
16:14:19 <fizzie> But then all the CONFIDENTIAL #esoteric chatter would be OBSERVED by a MULTINATIONAL CORPORATION.
16:15:37 <kmc> they would use timing attacks to steal my cryptos :(
16:15:56 <kmc> by 'they' i mean anyone with an instance on the same hardware
16:17:40 <fizzie> They would use acoustic sidechannel attacs using the accidentally user-exposed microphone on the neighbouring machines, too.
16:19:52 <kmc> your mind is the scene of the crime
16:24:21 <kmc> !c while(1) fork();
16:25:36 <kmc> !c printf("Still alive?\n");
16:25:55 <fizzie> "Spaghetti fork: A fork with a metal shaft loosely fitted inside a hollow plastic handle. The shaft protrudes through the top of the handle, ending in a bend that allows the metal part of the fork to be easily rotated with one hand while the other hand is holding the plastic handle. This supposedly allows spaghetti to be easily wound onto the tines. Electric variations of this fork have become ...
16:25:56 <kmc> !c asm("nop");
16:26:02 <fizzie> ... more prevalent in modern times."
16:26:04 <fizzie> Why have I never seen an electronic spaghetti fork?
16:27:12 <fizzie> (Or a cranked one, for that matter.)
16:28:00 <kmc> !c printf("%ul\n", sizeof(void*));
16:28:33 <fizzie> !c printf("%zu\n", sizeof (void*)); /* let's be correct about it, okay? */
16:29:06 <pikhq> !c printf("%zu\n", sizeof main); /* And sillier about it too? */
16:29:20 <fizzie> That's indeed very silly.
16:29:45 <pikhq> ... But main is a int(*)(int,char**). Surely that's not size 1.
16:29:53 <fizzie> "The sizeof operator shall not be applied to an expression that has function type --"
16:30:13 <fizzie> The thing about function designators automatically yielding a pointer does not work when it's an operand of sizeof.
16:30:57 <fizzie> (C11 6.3.2.1p4 and 6.5.3.4p1.)
16:30:59 <pikhq> Oh, I see. It's actually getting the size of the function itself, and in GNU C a function has size 1 for confusing reasons having to do with pointer arithmetic on function pointers and void pointers being permitted.
16:31:23 <pikhq> !c printf("%zu\n", sizeof(int(*)(int,char**)));
16:31:35 <fizzie> !c printf("%zu\n", sizeof &main); /* is also okay */
16:32:25 <kmc> !c int x=0; printf("%d\n", x);
16:32:52 <kmc> !c unsigned int x[4] = { 0 }; asm("cpuid" : "=b"(x[0]), "=d"(x[1]), "=c"(x[2]) : "a"(0)); printf("%s\n", (char *) x);
16:34:09 <Gregor> `echo You realize I'm more fun, right?
16:34:12 <HackEgo> You realize I'm more fun, right?
16:34:19 <kmc> yeah, i have used HackEgo
16:34:24 <kmc> how do i run C code with HackEgo?
16:34:43 <kmc> does it have a one-liner function like EgoBot?
16:34:50 <fizzie> I just added that 'runc' there.
16:34:55 <fizzie> You just asked about it, too.
16:34:58 <kmc> `runc printf("foo\n");
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16:35:13 <fizzie> `runc int main(void) { printf("foo\n"); }
16:35:13 <kmc> `runc int main() { printf("foo\n"); }
16:35:24 <kmc> `runc int main() { unsigned int x[4] = { 0 }; asm("cpuid" : "=b"(x[0]), "=d"(x[1]), "=c"(x[2]) : "a"(0)); printf("%s\n", (char *) x); }
16:35:33 <Gregor> My eventual goal was to replace EgoBot entirely with HackEgo functionality, but I'm a lazy punk.
16:35:34 <fizzie> Don't those run on the same system, anyway?
16:35:51 <Gregor> fizzie: Yes, they're fundamentally the same except that HackEgo has a persistent FS.
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16:41:30 <kmc> huh, GCC will optimize printf("%s\n", x) to puts(x)
16:42:58 <kmc> i wish i could say that's due to some crazy partial evaluation supercompilation mumbo
16:43:06 <kmc> but it's almost certainly due to GCC's hard-coded knowledge of printf
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16:44:21 <fizzie> GCC knows about timed hits.
16:45:13 <fizzie> It won't optimize printf("%d\n", 1); to puts("1");, however. (At least mine doesn't.)
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16:45:31 <kmc> timed hits?
16:46:06 <fizzie> It's a Super Mario RPG reference.
16:46:16 <fizzie> (Also a tvtropes trope.)
16:47:04 <Sgeo> Doing my homework online
16:47:06 <Sgeo> Multiple choice
16:47:16 <Sgeo> The answer is pretty blatently not one of the choices
16:48:37 <fizzie> Inspect Element and write your own. (Is not going to do anything sensible.)
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17:00:22 <kmc> drop out of school
17:15:22 <Sgeo> Oh, the correct answer is here, not sure what I was thinking before
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17:32:22 <kmc> i don't know!
17:32:29 <kmc> maybe move IRC and other chat to it
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17:32:59 <shachaf> You could get a "real" VPS thing instead of an EC2 Micro instance.
17:33:26 <kmc> sure, but the EC2 micro instance is free, and I've already signed up for the service
17:33:55 <shachaf> Well, running IRC on it sounds reasonable, I guess.
17:34:43 <shachaf> Yes -- we're all going to go onto kmc's little EC2 Micro Instance.
17:35:01 <AnotherTest> That doesn't sound good, but I assume irony
17:35:12 <kmc> AnotherTest: i meant that I would run my IRC client on said micro instance
17:35:30 <shachaf> AnotherTest: I assure you there was no irony intended.
17:35:36 <kmc> i wasn't very clear
17:36:44 <Sgeo> http://www.flounder.com/badprogram.htm#clipboard
17:36:54 <Sgeo> "I've seen people use it for interprocess communication. This is absolutely beyond any shadow of a doubt the WRONG thing to do."
17:37:02 <Sgeo> Why the fuck would anyone use the clipboard like that
17:37:19 <kmc> because people are stupid
17:38:04 <kmc> more charitably, because people are interested in getting their particular thing working in their particular environment, and don't worry about it being robust or "good practice"
17:40:05 <AnotherTest> Use of malloc/free in C++ programs -> so true
17:41:10 <kmc> eh, that one's not so bad, assuming you're using it for POD and not objects
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17:41:17 <AnotherTest> delete something that was allocated with malloc (with C++ delete)
17:41:27 <kmc> yes, that's another matter
17:42:04 <shachaf> Yes, you never want to do it with C++ delete. That's why I use C/C++ delete.
17:46:55 <AnotherTest> Has anyone here ever heard of "Anshu Avinash of the Programming Club"
17:50:15 <AnotherTest> I think he's trying to steal my source code :(
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17:59:13 <fizzie> You could say that regular copying and pasting is a form of interprocess communication.
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18:17:17 <Sgeo> Clojure's -> annoys me
18:17:23 <Sgeo> http://blog.fogus.me/2010/09/28/thrush-in-clojure-redux/
18:24:28 <kmc> Welcome to Arco AM/PM Mini-market. We would like to advise our customers that any individual who offers to pump gas, wash windows, or solicit products is not employed by or affiliated with this facility. We discourage any contact with these individuals, and ask that you report any problems to uniformed personnel inside.
18:24:33 <kmc> Thank you for shopping at Arco AM/PM, and have a pleasant day.
18:25:40 -!- kmc has set topic: Welcome to Arco AM/PM Mini-market. We would like to advise our customers that any individual who offers to pump gas, wash windows, or solicit products is not employed by or affiliated with this facility. We discourage any contact with these individuals. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
18:28:01 <fizzie> What's the "AM/PM" for? Open often?
18:29:15 <fizzie> The web-shop of the Finnish national railway company (VR) is closed from 23:30 to 06:00. Because, as everyone knows, the Internet is closed at night.
18:29:46 -!- nortti has joined.
18:29:59 <fizzie> (You get timetables 24H, but it's not possible to buy tickets during that time.)
18:30:14 <kmc> the B&H Photo website closes for the Sabbath
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18:32:00 <fizzie> Oh, and our bank said that extra mortgage payments are discouraged near the start/end of month when the scheduled payment goes, because if it happens too close to it, the system might get all confused, and then there might be trouble. (Completely coincidentally, there was a recent magazine article about the state of the COBOL, which mentioned the bank in question still having large COBOL ...
18:32:06 <fizzie> ... systems up and running.)
18:32:17 <kmc> a lot of people have large COBOL systems up and running
18:32:49 <fizzie> Anyway, it's possible some of those systems can be a bit... inflexible.
18:33:26 <kmc> but replacing it would involve a huge amount of expense and trouble
18:33:34 <kmc> and will probably result in something that's even buggier
18:33:52 <kmc> at least the 30 year old COBOL program's bugs are probably well documented
18:34:32 <fizzie> They did say their current development uses Java technologies, IIRC.
18:34:45 <kmc> Java truly is the COBOL of the 21st Century
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18:35:57 <fizzie> But they're having some trouble finding "real" COBOL programmers, that would still happen to be alive. Apparently there's a reasonable supply of people who know it somewhat well, but the Real Men are dying off.
18:36:55 <kmc> that is a problem
18:37:40 <mroman> Learning COBOL is actually fucking hard.
18:37:48 <mroman> That's the problem imo :)
18:37:57 <Sgeo> I know a little bit of the basics
18:38:21 <mroman> It's not like lisp, python, php, ruby, java which you can learn the basics in less than a week
18:39:24 <Sgeo> I don't think the basics are that difficult
18:40:17 <Sgeo> Each program is divided into divisions. There's a division for information about the program, a division for things such as files that will be accessed, a division for declaring all variables that will be used, I think there's other divisions, and there's a division for the actual instructions that will be run
18:40:49 <Sgeo> The last division is divided into I forget the term. Either paragraphs or procedures.
18:41:44 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/cobol
18:41:59 <Sgeo> There are people who want to learn COBOL, and an article saying why you should learn COBOL
18:42:37 <mroman> I don't beleive in "why you should" articles.
18:42:37 <kmc> that's, like, MVC, man
18:42:53 <mroman> especially in "why you should learn" and "why you should beleive"
18:43:42 <shachaf> They're always written by moralists.
18:45:01 <mroman> kmc: Because there are always reasons for anything.
18:46:32 <mroman> The sponsors of every language can tell you each 20 reasons to learn their language.
18:46:48 <mroman> and some of them might even be the same.
18:48:08 <mroman> and 75% of the reasons are actually good reasons.
18:48:59 <mroman> and they are written from a personal viewpoint of the author.
18:49:39 <AnotherTest> "why you should not believe why you should articles"
18:49:42 <mroman> that ultimatively biases it.
18:49:53 <mroman> AnotherTest: Nice one ;)
18:50:23 <mroman> If you are a COBOL programmer I'd actually want you to give me reasons NOT TO learn COBOL
18:50:49 <mroman> and if there are few reasons not to learn it, then I actually might.
18:51:03 <kmc> mroman: uh, of course the articles are biased, you have to take that into account when you read it
18:51:12 <kmc> do you in general refuse to read anything with an opinion
18:51:28 <shachaf> kmc: I only read the unbiased weblog articles on the Internet.
18:51:30 <mroman> If somebody really knows his stuff, he can tell me the weaknesses of it.
18:51:32 <shachaf> This is a time-saving measure.
18:51:32 <AnotherTest> I don't think you will find a lot of information that doesn't contain opinion
18:51:42 <mroman> Else he's just so biased of his language that I just won't listen to him.
18:51:54 <kmc> mroman: maybe that should be a different article though
18:52:11 <kmc> biased or not, such articles can still make you aware of cool features that make the language worth learning
18:52:15 <kmc> note also, worth learning != worth using
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18:52:27 <mroman> They provide an insight, yes.
18:52:40 <AnotherTest> Let's write a "Why you should learn brainfuck"
18:53:03 <fizzie> A "why you should make a brainfuck derivative" article is what the wiki is missing.
18:53:05 <mroman> But when it comes to languages I'm more interested in knowing where they are bad at.
18:53:17 <kmc> that's also different from "reasons not to learn it"
18:53:23 <kmc> you are being very sloppy with language
18:53:43 <AnotherTest> learning a new (programming) language is generally not a bad idea I think
18:53:56 <kmc> people focus too much on languages, anyway
18:54:09 <kmc> i think most interesting "Why you should learn $X" articles will not be about languages
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18:54:15 <nortti> should I really leaen cobol?
18:54:21 <mroman> kmc: Agreed @focus too much on languages
18:54:31 <kmc> i'd rather read "Why you should learn <interesting library>" instead of "Why you should learn <my favorite slight variant on perl/python/ruby/php/javascript>"
18:54:52 <shachaf> I heard d3.js was an interesting library.
18:55:10 <subleq> i can't figure out how to use it though
18:55:16 <fizzie> Or perhaps I just looked at some examples and thought that it looked interesting.
18:55:34 <AnotherTest> it took me 30 minutes to compile the first example though
18:55:37 <mroman> I haven't heard a damn thing .
18:57:07 <kmc> boost::spirit is interesting but don't try to use it for actual work
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18:57:14 <kmc> "just like C++, or Haskell"
18:57:32 <kmc> http://mbostock.github.com/d3/talk/20111116/airports.html
18:57:38 <AnotherTest> kmc: I actually used boost::spirit::classic(yay!) for X.so
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19:20:10 <zzo38> My hardware NSF design fills up the $4018-$403F area exactly with no bytes left over.
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19:46:08 <zzo38> Learn COBOL if you want to learn Common Business Oriented Language.
19:47:09 <shachaf> zzo38 is talking about the National Science Foundation, of course.
19:47:09 <Sgeo> Learn COBOL if you love using global variables for everything.
19:47:17 <atriq> Something to do with the NES, I believe, nortti
19:47:23 <zzo38> nortti: NES/Famicom music files.
19:47:44 <Sgeo> Hmm "The COBOL 2002 standard includes support for object-oriented programming and other modern language features.[1]
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19:50:42 <zzo38> However the interrupt routine uses 30 clock cycles and I am unsure if this can be reduced, or how many clock cycles other hardware NSF players use, etc
19:51:12 <atriq> Oh no, I've got a Wolfram Alpha account now
19:51:28 <fizzie> atriq: I heard you can use it to dig into your Facebook.
19:51:42 <atriq> That is the PRECISE reason I'm making an account
19:52:28 <Sgeo> Hmm, I might be wrong
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20:04:26 <Sgeo> On my friends network I have 4 clusters of 2 people
20:06:21 <itidus21> therefore S would be for Sound
20:06:39 <atriq> I have a completely separate cluster of 8 people
20:07:13 <atriq> And I'm fairly sure Gregor is in a cluster unto himself
20:07:25 <itidus21> also if Nintendo changed their name to NES Corporation, the acronym would hold as NES Entertainment System Sound Files
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20:10:38 <kmc> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/15/nyregion/chicken-little.html
20:13:27 <itidus21> sometimes i feel inauthentic when thanking people, especially bus drivers
20:14:16 <itidus21> i think because i figure i would say it anyway even if i wasn't thankful
20:15:14 <fizzie> I don't thank bus drivers. :/
20:15:15 <nortti> oh. misread inauthetic as nausetic
20:15:24 <fizzie> It's kind of rare here.
20:15:33 <fizzie> Well, except when buying a ticket.
20:16:00 <fizzie> But not when just beeping the card at the machine.
20:16:11 <fizzie> Some people say "thanks" when exiting the bus, but that's like less than 10% I'd say.
20:16:17 <itidus21> oh well i mean when getting off the bus. yeah
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20:17:15 <itidus21> the fact that i dwell on such things is probably cause for concern
20:17:24 <fizzie> Usually the driver's all the way in front, and our bus conventions call from exit through the middle or the back door, so it'd need quite a loud "thanks", and that just feels out-of-place.
20:18:58 <fizzie> Finns are known to be really impolite, though.
20:19:10 <itidus21> hmm i think what actually happens is
20:19:22 <itidus21> the politeness information is probably just expressed by other means
20:20:07 <itidus21> maybe thats being deluded of me though
20:22:56 <impomatic> I say thanks to the driver... Unless they're a jerk!
20:23:16 <impomatic> "You can't drink that on the bus, company policy" (soft drink / water)
20:23:20 <itidus21> i guess the fact that some drivers are jerks reminds you they're human
20:24:26 <fizzie> Well. I don't know if it's expressed at all. But I suppose it's a cultural thing and not the kind of thing that we'd be inherently more rude in a thinks-less-of-others sense. I don't think bus drivers expect to be thanked (when getting off) here, either, since it's not a Thing That Is Done.
20:25:39 <itidus21> yeah..... if i was more normal.. i wouldn't have made this a topic
20:25:59 <itidus21> so my views are not representative of normal
20:27:02 <fizzie> And there's no direct translation of "please" when you're ordering/asking for something, though you can sort of optionally use the thanking word as a suffix there.
20:28:05 <fizzie> But it's not especially rude to just say what it is that you're e.g. buying, without any extra frills.
20:30:39 <fizzie> "This is not a day of national mourning in Helsinki, this is Finns in their natural state: brooding, private, grimly in touch with no one but themselves."
20:31:05 <fizzie> So began a "60 minutes" US TV program, talking about how tango has landed to Finland.
20:31:13 <fizzie> It caused a bit of a stir.
20:31:22 <fizzie> (This was in 1992 or something.)
20:31:41 <fizzie> (I heard the sentence, sampled, in some piece of music somewhat recently.)
20:32:42 <itidus21> well, USA should begin by getting a proper name for the nation
20:33:15 <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhxZoV3t61c -- it's... kind of disparaging.
20:33:26 <kmc> in NYC there are signs in buses and trains reminding you that assaulting the driver will get you 7 years in prison
20:34:07 <itidus21> somehow those signs never get seen on tv :D
20:34:17 <kmc> they are pretty small
20:34:41 <kmc> Linux's seccomp now lets you give a fine-grained specification of which system calls are allowed
20:34:46 <kmc> using... a Berkeley Packet Filter program
20:35:18 <fizzie> The metropolitan area transportation conglomerate recently introduced a rule that all buses need to have this strong-glass pane that goes up to the ceiling in-between the driver and the passengers.
20:35:23 <fizzie> To cut down on... problems.
20:35:36 <itidus21> i think its interesting that people refer to USA as either US or A or USA
20:36:53 <kmc> The Great Satan
20:37:16 <itidus21> i suppose occasionally some might call it north america
20:37:26 <kmc> there are other countries in north america...
20:37:36 <itidus21> yeah, but theres even more countries in america :D
20:37:43 <fizzie> kmc: What, isn't Canada just some kind of a part of USA?
20:38:06 <fizzie> America's hat, or what do they say.
20:38:11 <kmc> well once Barack Obama and the UN finish their conspiracy to create a united North American government with a single currency, the Amero
20:38:20 <kmc> cause there's nothing the US wants more than to be in a currency union with Mexico
20:38:44 <itidus21> it's as if the sudanese referred to sudan as africa
20:38:52 <fizzie> Though I did see someone calling USA "Canada's underpants".
20:39:02 <kmc> itidus21: heh, yes
20:39:15 <itidus21> maybe im missing the point though... its easy in australia where the nation is literally a continent
20:39:25 <itidus21> its the easiest possible naming system
20:39:36 <kmc> the Roman province of Africa was only a bit of Tunisia and Libya
20:39:51 <itidus21> this? this is the state of south australia, in the nation australia, in the continent australia
20:40:13 <kmc> the words "state" and "nation" are super ambiguous too
20:40:15 <kmc> while we're at it
20:40:37 <itidus21> next to it is the state of western australia... and to the north is the northern territory territory of the nation of australia in the continent australia
20:41:27 <itidus21> and in the middle of new south wales is a usefully named territory called the australian capital territory which unsurprisingly is where canberra is
20:41:38 <atriq> itidus21, what about New Zeeland and Papua New Guinea?
20:42:39 <nortti> it is 1 of 3 countries of the worl: oceania, eurasia and eastasia
20:43:52 <itidus21> reading the first paragraph makes it clear that its pointless to discretely define oceania http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceania
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20:52:31 <nortti> eastasia. you have always been in war with eastasia
20:54:15 <itidus21> i suppose they just make up these words as they go
20:55:06 <itidus21> basically sets of nations which aren't constrained by being a landmass
20:56:11 <itidus21> but, they probably enjoy the ambiguity by using a name rather than actually specifying a set
20:57:09 <itidus21> maybe so that noone knows what they're talking about
20:58:25 <itidus21> "we are at war with eurasia" "...does that mean?" "no, don't worry you're not part of eurasia (fingers crossed behind back)"
20:58:54 <itidus21> ok well.. maybe the fingers don't have to be crossed
21:01:21 <nortti> and you have always been
21:01:39 <itidus21> i was thinking about "present company excluded" yesterday, this seems relevant
21:04:12 <itidus21> "all men and women are holding this country back, present company excluded"
21:05:44 <Phantom__Hoover> Urgh, I had to listen to the elaborately-synchronised orchestration to the end-of-Fringe fireworks on a 15 second delay because the local radio station's stream had such high latency.
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21:13:41 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, except for the divorce, and another plot hole, I kind of liked the Doctor Who episode
21:16:19 <Sgeo> In Clojure there's some sort of discussion about the Eclipse Public License
21:16:35 <Sgeo> How it's not GPL-compatible because it protects freedoms better, supposedly?
21:17:06 <Sgeo> "The EPL, however, requires that anyone distributing the work grant every recipient a license to any patents that they might hold that cover the modifications they have made. Because this is a "further restriction" on the recipients, distribution of such a combined work does not satisfy the GPL.["
21:17:20 <Sgeo> impomatic, why would the switch to the forcefield be inside the asylum?
21:17:28 <Sgeo> That seems unwise
21:18:26 <impomatic> I've only just seen it. We had a power cut from 7:10 to 8:30 last night. Then iPlayer wouldn't work. It's almost as they everything conspired to stop me watching...
21:23:33 * kmc is hacking in front of huge monitors, drinking mountain dew and listening to infected mushroom
21:23:36 <kmc> i'm such a cliche
21:30:29 <itidus21> sometimes in the late hours i think about the passing of pets and family. and the social, financial and mental problems which cause regrets of how the time was spent compared to how it could have been spent
21:30:30 <fizzie> Drinking some infected mushrooms and listening to Mountain Dew.
21:30:45 <itidus21> and then i spend 15minutes with an actual human, and think, damn humans really shit me
21:32:37 <kmc> that sounds uncomfortable for both of you
21:33:08 <zzo38> I thought GPL already requires a patent license?
21:35:25 <itidus21> kmc: well i think some of my regrets are caused by idealized memories of people
21:36:12 <fizzie> The local possibly-largest computer hardware (and other stuff) e-tailer sells nowadays these "rare american" soft drinks etc. (like cherry cola and coke in aluminum bottle-shaped imperial-units containers and Snapple and whatever) because obviously people drinking that stuff are more "authentic".
21:36:16 <itidus21> a regret such as "how come i wasnt nice to that guy?" .. then the realization "he raised my blood pressure when he started talking"
21:36:26 <fizzie> They also sell that Gamer Grub stuff.
21:37:49 <kmc> http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/02/19
21:38:29 <fizzie> I think they had a couple others on the same theme.
21:38:41 <Arc_Koen> itidus21: was his voice too high-pitched or something? I wonder how many decibels are needed to get one's blood boiling
21:39:38 <itidus21> Arc_Koen: its easy to forget what annoying means when around _relatively_ unannoying people
21:40:45 <Arc_Koen> itidus21: sometimes I forget what annoying means when around an annoying person who's particularly less annoying than usual
21:40:57 <Vorpal> Arc_Koen, hm could you actually cook stuff with sound?
21:41:31 <Vorpal> I guess you could in theory
21:41:37 <Arc_Koen> science will answer to that question but she's busy at the moment
21:42:40 <itidus21> Vorpal: so this device would be soundproof, and have a heck of a lot of noise inside?
21:42:43 <Arc_Koen> I guess this could figure as an xkcd's "What if we used sonar cookers instead of solar cookers"
21:43:44 <Vorpal> Arc_Koen, have they done that?
21:44:00 <Vorpal> itidus21, why does it need to be sound proof? Who cares about side effects :P
21:44:04 <Arc_Koen> maybe have a way to concentrate the sound... "loud amplification by stimulated emission of resonance"
21:44:38 <itidus21> one form of annoying sound is eating with mouth open
21:44:47 <Arc_Koen> Vorpal: well, I'm guessing if we can have such a silly idea, there's a good chance someone has had it before
21:44:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think there are some ultrasonic heating based things.
21:44:55 <itidus21> the effects are mitigated if you yourself are eating with mouth open
21:45:19 <Vorpal> how can you eat with mouth open?
21:45:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh, really? that is awesome
21:45:29 <Vorpal> got a source for that claim though?
21:45:40 <itidus21> Vorpal: well the chewing after putting the food in your mouth
21:46:08 <Vorpal> itidus21, it would fall out...
21:46:22 <Vorpal> unless it is sticky like some sweets
21:46:42 <itidus21> to make it worse the food is inside a paper bag which is inside a plastic bag
21:46:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasound "Ultrasonic welding"
21:47:22 <fizzie> Also some other things based on ultrasound-induced cavitation. (Which releases heat.)
21:48:05 <fizzie> The welding thing is a bit far from first connotations of "sound" though.
21:48:57 <itidus21> ok so loud noises are not so good for cooking
21:49:43 <fizzie> Didn't see anything that'd really be based on pressure waves in air (cavitation happens in liquids); I'm sure you can get *some* heat energy somewhere, but it doesn't sound exactly practical.
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21:51:58 <itidus21> someone has made a patent for ultrasonic cooking apparatus
21:53:18 <nortti> is there anything patentable that is not patented?
21:53:55 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: oh it does sound... maybe not practical though
21:54:04 <fizzie> nortti: People keep patenting new things, so if we take as granted that all the granted patents are for novel inventions (ha!), sure.
21:59:11 <zzo38> Whatever I make, I don't patent. This way it saves money.
21:59:39 <itidus21> they keep maintaining the pretense that the modern patent system has anything to do with invention, or protecting IP
22:02:24 <itidus21> to begin with, its a form of protection you have to pay for...
22:02:52 <itidus21> which is kind of strange compared to most laws about protection
22:05:32 <itidus21> like you don't have to apply to an agency and pay in advance for legal protection for your body from being beaten up
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22:05:58 <itidus21> for some reason, you just get legal rights for free when it comes to being beaten up
22:08:01 <itidus21> so my question is what-if patents were free?
22:08:13 <zzo38> Maybe next time you get beaten up, you should tell them that you did not pay for legal protection
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22:09:49 <itidus21> zzo38: i am good at getting through life without fights, but part of that is luck
22:19:08 <oerjan> <spirity> I worship the god Eris <-- *godess hth
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22:54:12 <kmc> i worship the goatass eris
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23:00:46 <kmc> in C, is there a better way to write while (1) { if (foo) continue; ...; if (bar) continue; ...; if (baz) continue; ...; return x; }
23:00:49 <kmc> other than goto
23:01:49 <kmc> nothing's especially bad about it; I am just wondering if there's a better way
23:01:56 <shachaf> Oh, I see. It's more of an if+goto than a loop.
23:01:58 <kmc> it seems kind of silly to have a loop which only runs all the way through once
23:02:28 <kmc> the loop receives packets and i want to return the first one which passes a series of criteria
23:02:42 <kmc> which are too complicated to be expressed nicely in a single boolean expression
23:02:55 <shachaf> Even if you put them all in different functions or something?
23:03:05 <kmc> that would be too much code
23:03:45 <zzo38> Can you use the ?: operator?
23:04:40 <kmc> not nicely
23:05:35 -!- shachaf has changed nick to SHACHAF.
23:07:15 <zzo38> Can you use macros?
23:07:29 <kmc> not nicely
23:07:57 <SHACHAF> I think separating your predicates out into their own functions is vaguely nice.
23:08:02 <SHACHAF> Maybe you can use nested functions in GCC!
23:10:00 <kmc> socket(2) is a weird syscall
23:10:23 <kmc> why shouldn't it be open("/dev/net/inet/tcp", ...)
23:11:26 <SHACHAF> Isn't that what it is in Plan 9?
23:12:31 <SHACHAF> Networking was kind of hacked onto Unix, I understand.
23:13:18 <kmc> "you don't say"
23:13:29 <kmc> UNIX was kind of hacked onto Space Travel
23:13:36 <SHACHAF> The socket API (in particular parts of it, like sending fds over sockets and all that) is kind of terrible. :-(
23:13:52 <kmc> yeah i feel like there should be an achievement badge for that
23:13:55 <kmc> "sent a fd over a socket"
23:15:34 <SHACHAF> What about "did it in order to do something useful"?
23:15:52 <SHACHAF> I think they did that at RDB at one point.
23:15:58 <kmc> "does exploiting CVE-2012-0056 count as something useful"
23:16:16 <oerjan> kmc: while (!foo) { ...; if (!bar) { ...; if (!baz) { ...; return x; } } } /* YOU CAN THANK ME LATER */
23:16:54 <SHACHAF> The C idiom of flattening things out is actually nice.
23:17:10 <SHACHAF> I mean things like void foo() { if (!x) return; ... }
23:17:39 <pikhq> kmc: Surely it'd be more like open("/dev/net/inet/tcp/hostname/port") :)
23:18:27 <kmc> that would replace some other syscalls too
23:20:09 <pikhq> SHACHAF: Yeah, but it's not on the C level.
23:26:05 <SHACHAF> kmc: Did you know lexande_ has been to the place I lived in in WA?
23:31:42 <kmc> huh, just discovered a weird quirk in C99
23:31:52 <kmc> you can put declarations anywhere, but you still can't put a label on one
23:32:56 <SHACHAF> Hmm, so you might have statements that you can't goto?
23:33:04 <kmc> well, they're not statements, they're declarations ;)
23:33:14 <kmc> even though they can appear anywhere and can have arbitrary code as initializers
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23:34:55 <zzo38> The macros in C are often not powerful enough
23:35:57 <pikhq> kmc: foo: ; fixes that. :)
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23:39:44 <kmc> heh, good point
23:43:04 <SHACHAF> Oh, that's a good label syntax.
23:43:17 <kmc> it so looks like a typo
23:45:07 <SHACHAF> <GUIL> Now mind your tongue, or we'll have it out and throw the rest of you away, like a nightingale at a Roman feast. <ROS> Took the very words out of my mouth. <GUIL> You'd be lost for words. <ROS> You'd be tongue-tied. <GUIL> Like a mute in a monologue. <ROS> Like a nightingale at a Roman feast. <GUIL> Your diction will go to pieces. <ROS> Your lines will be cut. <GUIL> To dumbshows. <ROS> And dramatic pauses. <GUIL> You'll never find your tongu
23:45:48 <ion> Ah. foo: ; } is a way to get a label to the end of a function. :-)
23:46:24 <oerjan> SHACHAF: never find your tongu
23:46:38 <SHACHAF> <GUIL> You'll never find your tongue. <ROS> Lick your lips. <GUIL> Taste your tears. <ROS> Your breakfast. <GUIL> You won't know the difference. <ROS> There won't be any. <GUIL> We'll take the very words out of your mouth. <ROS> So you've caught on. <GUIL> So you've caught up.
23:46:50 <ion> shachaf: y u no use splitlong.pl? It comes with your client of choice.
23:47:08 <SHACHAF> Why do I need it when I have oerjan?
23:47:41 * oerjan proceeds to tie SHACHAF's shoe laces for him
23:47:45 <ion> (mkdir -pv ~/.irssi/scripts && cd ~/.irssi/scripts && ln -s . autorun && ln -s /usr/share/irssi/scripts/splitlong.pl .) and /script load splitlong
23:48:09 <SHACHAF> whoa, dude, it's actually pre-installed!
23:50:55 <SHACHAF> ion: Why not just make an "autorun" directory?
23:51:28 <ion> I’m not sure /script load looks into autorun.
23:51:41 <SHACHAF> Oh, so one is for now and one is for next run?
23:51:58 <SHACHAF> 16:51 -!- Irssi: Loaded script splitlong
23:52:10 <SHACHAF> 16:45 <SHACHAF> <GUIL> Now mind your tongue, or we'll have it out and throw the rest of you away, like a nightingale at a Roman feast. <ROS> Took the very words out of my mouth. <GUIL> You'd be lost for words. <ROS> You'd be tongue-tied. <GUIL> Like a mute in a monologue. <ROS> Like a nightingale at a Roman feast. <GUIL> Your diction will go to pieces. <ROS> Your lines will be cut. <GUIL> To
23:52:16 <SHACHAF> dmb shows. <ROS> And dramatic pauses. <GUIL> You'll never find your tongue. <ROS> Lick your lips. <GUIL> Taste your tears. <ROS> Your breakfast. <GUIL> You won't know the difference. <ROS> There won't be any. <GUIL> We'll take the very words out of your mouth. <ROS> So you've caught on. <GUIL> So you've caught up.
23:52:21 <SHACHAF> Does that really say "dmb shows"?
23:52:29 <SHACHAF> splitlong.pl is awful. :-(
23:52:39 <oerjan> let's see whether this works properly and all according to specification like it very well absolutely and definitely should for sure, am i right of course i am you dolts just testing and HI's not a ctcp SHACHAF, try something that actually exists instead and maybe you might get an answer but only if i feel like it OKAY? have a good day and did this get long enough...
23:52:58 <SHACHAF> oerjan: HI is totally a CTCP
23:54:03 <oerjan> how does one send replies anyway?
23:54:44 <oerjan> also, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ...
23:54:49 <oerjan> ... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasbestos
23:56:00 <SHACHAF> oerjan: Sorry for lying. :-(
23:59:28 <ion> shachaf: Huh. splitlong never resulted in anything like the “dmb shows” thing when i used irssi.
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01:04:10 <kmc> NAND flash chips are binned by cycles before failure
01:04:15 <kmc> i wonder how they test that on a brand new chip
01:05:28 <SHACHAF> kmc: http://picayune.uclick.com/comics/ch/1986/ch861126.gif
01:06:32 <SHACHAF> You haven't hated on XKCD in, like, ages, man.
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01:13:44 <kmc> none of the recent ones have been remarkably bad
01:13:53 <kmc> they're just dumb in ways we have seen many times before
01:14:06 <SHACHAF> It's not even interesting enough to mock now?
01:14:16 <SHACHAF> "the ultimate in mediocrity", reports area man
01:14:24 <kmc> plus i'm trying to be less negative, as a person
01:14:35 <kmc> i think my opinion of xkcd is well-known here by this point
01:14:44 <kmc> there's no point repeating it, if i'm not adding new information
01:14:52 <kmc> i have been enjoying what-if.xkcd.com though
01:15:22 <SHACHAF> What should I put in an RSS feed for someone's birthday?
01:16:08 <SHACHAF> I guess I can put "Happy Birthday" in it.
01:16:26 <oerjan> "What are you still alive?"
01:16:36 <kmc> you're... giving them an RSS feed?
01:16:53 <SHACHAF> I run a couple of RSS feeds that my father subscribes to.
01:17:08 <SHACHAF> Perhaps I'll put a birthday thing in one of them.
01:17:18 <SHACHAF> These are RSS feeds for web comics.
01:17:27 <zzo38> Are you going to change your name to Fire Void?
01:18:01 <kmc> this SSD has dropped in price 50% since February
01:18:51 <SHACHAF> How much does it cost now?
01:19:00 <SHACHAF> Maybe I should get an SSD.
01:19:13 <kmc> Intel 520 240GB, $230 at Newegg
01:19:32 <SHACHAF> Maybe I should get a big external hard drive and do backups.
01:19:36 <kmc> by all reports, one of the best SSDs
01:19:45 <kmc> maybe i should do off-site backups
01:19:55 <SHACHAF> I have $50 of Tarsnap credit.
01:20:34 <zzo38> I wrote a program to combine multiple .NSF into one .NSF file, although there are some restrictions, such as the input cannot use any expansion chips other than MMC5 and Namco 163, and the output will use the Famicom Disk System expansion in addition to the ones used on the input.
01:38:06 <zzo38> I want to invent backgammon card.
01:53:21 -!- Gregor has set topic: Official channel of PEZ | PEZ is the best candy. Why have you abandoned PEZ? | Do not fret, PEZ can forgive you. Give yourself freely to PEZ. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
01:54:31 <oerjan> i shall assume this was simple substitution applied to a text containing the phrase "Jesus is the best candy."
01:55:26 <Gregor> I was just eating PEZ.
01:55:42 <oerjan> YOU ATE JESUS? YOU BASTARD!
01:55:58 <zzo38> oerjan: Doesn't everyone?
01:56:13 <oerjan> oh right, that communion thingy
01:56:56 <Gregor> In the new, hip Catholic church, they use Charleston Chews instead of crackers.
01:58:10 <zzo38> Don't you know that canon law forbids them to do that? (Well, they already violate canon law by not having a pipe organ, so...)
01:58:26 <oerjan> sounds good, although i shall assume it's sickly over-sweet per my american candy stereotypes
01:58:44 <oerjan> pipe organs are mandatory?
01:59:00 <kmc> cannon law trumps canon law
01:59:03 <zzo38> Yes, although many churches do not have it anyways.
01:59:10 <oerjan> i'd have thought they were quite hard to get by around jesus' time
01:59:24 <Gregor> oerjan: It's nougat and chocolate. It's actually one of the least sweet American candies, I'd say.
01:59:33 <Gregor> Mass-produced, that is.
01:59:35 <zzo38> Yes that is true; but it is not Jesus' time today!
01:59:51 <oerjan> but but surely canon law is eternal!
02:00:05 <zzo38> Well, actually they do sometimes change it.
02:00:07 * oerjan is supposedly lutheran protestant, anyway
02:00:21 <Gregor> oerjan: I think you mean, CANNON law is eternal.
02:01:00 <SHACHAF> kmc: Why aren't you in #cslounge-trains?
02:01:06 <oerjan> incidentally, {en:canon, en:cannon} = {no:cannon}
02:01:16 <oerjan> incidentally, {en:canon, en:cannon} = {no:kanon}
02:03:43 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipe_organ contains no mention of "canon" or "law"
02:04:06 <Arc_Koen> is it common to demonstrate an esolang's Turing-completeness by writing a Turing machine?
02:04:33 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: Look at the wiki you can see which ways are more common.
02:04:44 * oerjan shall assume zzo38 belongs to The Holy Catholic Communion of Righteous Canadian Pipe-Organ Appliers
02:05:36 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i have done it (e.g. some of the fragment proofs for Underload), but whether it's the simplest way depends a lot on the esolang
02:06:04 <Arc_Koen> hmmm wait I was thinking "write a turing-machine that interprets the language" but that doesn't prove anything
02:06:26 <oerjan> basically you want to choose something that has already been proved TC, and which is easy to interpret in your language
02:07:13 <oerjan> which can be turing machines, but other nice possibilities are lambda calculus, ski calculus, underload, bitwise cyclic tag...
02:07:14 <Arc_Koen> so when I said "by writing a Turing machine" and you answered you had done it you meant you have written an interpreter for a turing machine in a esolang?
02:08:18 <oerjan> what i actually did was make a general procedure for translating a turing machine into an underload program containing only ~:()^ commands (iirc)
02:08:39 <oerjan> oh, also minsky machines, which i needed to get rid of the ~.
02:09:28 <Arc_Koen> also I'm confused - I always thought that "being Turing-complete" was a formal way to describe what we'd thought of as "can do anything" but apparently you don't need input/output to be turing-complete, which is a bit weird since basically I am the kind of person who'd think that any programs that does not give a result is equivalent to the null program
02:09:47 <oerjan> for example for fueue underload was a very good fit, since it had very similar pieces even if they worked bizarrely differently
02:11:22 <coppro> Arc_Koen: Turing-completeness is usually defined by accept/reject
02:11:32 <coppro> well, Turing machines are
02:11:33 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: we have this sort of "I/O-complete" or "brainfuck-complete" idea floating around in our community for when you want to consider I/O.
02:11:36 <Arc_Koen> (a program that does not give output would be like a machine inside a black box - it may be working hard and compute a lot of stuff, but from the outside it's no more than a black box)
02:11:52 <oerjan> coppro: i _do_ like to allow more than single-bit output if possible :P
02:12:06 <coppro> oerjan: but single bit is all that is strictly necessary from a computation perspective
02:12:55 <coppro> the two are almost exactly equivalent
02:13:16 <coppro> I think they are equivalent but I'm tired
02:13:22 <coppro> I do agree, I prefer programs that can do I/O
02:14:06 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: well the thing is that you need some notion of inital setup, and final result; these include _both_ the program itself and ordinary i/o, but apply to many more general systems that don't have i/o. e.g. pure lambda calculus has only a concept of reduction to something like a normal or weakly normal result which is still a lambda expression
02:15:06 <oerjan> so the initial setup is the lambda expression you start with, encoding what you want to compute, and the result is the reduced (weakly or strongly) normal form
02:15:31 <Arc_Koen> ok so you're considering the final state of the machine as the output?
02:16:10 <oerjan> for a turing machine that's the usual way, also including the final tape if you want more than accept/reject
02:19:18 <oerjan> i recall the Bitwise Cyclic Tag page suggests you want to include all the deleted bits as output
02:19:46 <coppro> Arc_Koen: see the busy beaver function
02:20:03 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: oh also brainfuck is rather popular to interpret, for brainfuck derivatives that's often the simplest way of proving TC-ness
02:20:35 <kmc> you can also write a thing that compiles brainfuck to your language
02:20:40 <kmc> as long as you can prove the compiler always works
02:20:51 <oerjan> right, actually i meant compiling
02:21:34 <SHACHAF> Writing a compiler for a TC language *in* your language isn't sufficient, though. :-)
02:21:52 * kmc writes a C to C compiler in 'cat'
02:22:21 <oerjan> and it's not necessarily for the compiler to be written in your language either
02:22:27 <SHACHAF> kmc: Oh? What's the text of your cat program?
02:22:29 <oerjan> only to have it as target
02:22:32 <SHACHAF> I can only ever manage to write quines.
02:23:09 <SHACHAF> Is Malbolge the best esolang?
02:23:22 <Arc_Koen> well thank you guys that was certainly enlightening
02:23:43 <SHACHAF> oerjan: Well, neither is ISO C.
02:23:47 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Are you telling me you can build a time machine but you can't cook a cheese soufflé? You've got your priorities all wrong!).
02:24:11 <oerjan> SHACHAF: clearly Malbolge Unshackled is the best, then.
02:24:22 <kmc> malbolge shrugged
02:27:20 * oerjan is saying this mainly in the hope of some day finding someone willing to try programming it
02:27:54 <oerjan> a TC proof would be nice too, i guess.
02:30:48 <oerjan> i guess it might help _slightly_ if i actually updated it to compile in ghc
02:37:41 <oerjan> !c printf("Today's strip is brought to you by the number %lX.\n", 184594917);
02:37:43 <EgoBot> Today's strip is brought to you by the number B00B1E5.
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02:56:11 <kmc> #define HV_LINUX_GUEST_ID_HI 0xB16B00B5
02:57:05 <SHACHAF> The hex constant chosen for HV_LINUX_GUEST_ID_HI was offensive, update to use
02:57:06 <SHACHAF> the decimal equivalent instead.
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03:22:46 <ion> I DON’T HAVE A CAPS LOCK. :-(
03:23:26 <ion> FTL SEEMS LIKE A VERY NICE GAME. BUT NOW I’LL GET SOME SLEEP.
03:23:41 <ion> IT’S NOT CAPS LOCK DAY YET.
03:27:43 <kmc> 192.168.1.NaN
03:28:15 * SHACHAF wonders what the exponent would represent.
03:29:46 <kmc> got this on the admin interface of a wireless router
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03:46:29 <zzo38> Please help me with the RogueVM document
03:50:02 <zzo38> How easy would static analysis of 6502 machine codes in a .NSF file be?
03:50:19 <SHACHAF> That depends on what you want to analyze.
03:52:01 <zzo38> To figure out what RAM is used, to figure out bankswitching is used, and to decompile it and recompile it at a different address.
03:53:20 <zzo38> Some things are known not to be used.
03:56:23 <zzo38> Recompiling at a different address may not be needed if you can simply know which ROM/RAM is free, and what it uses to do bankswitching.
04:04:03 <SHACHAF> ion: splitlong just did it again!
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04:27:52 <zzo38> madbr: Are you someone making .NSF musics? (I fail to remember exactly)
04:28:12 <kmc> "Distance / ACK Timing: Sets the approximate maximum distance in meters from which clients can connect. May be useful in preventing distant "cantenna leeches" from connecting."
04:28:43 <pikhq> kmc: That seems likely to break.
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04:28:58 <zzo38> kmc: O, that is what it does? Can they set the power for distance?
04:29:15 <kmc> what do you mean?
04:29:29 <zzo38> I recall reading somewhere that they could not send an email message more than 500 miles away, due to speed of light and time limits set in the configuration.
04:29:35 <madbr> zzo38: yeah I do songs for famicompos
04:29:45 <madbr> using it to nsf converters
04:30:06 <zzo38> madbr: I have written a program to combine multiple .NSFs into one .NSF although there are some restrictions.
04:30:50 <zzo38> You can see my .NSFs at http://2a03.free.fr/?p=pub&dir=zzo38
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04:31:20 <zzo38> Please tell me if you like any of these musics?
04:31:38 <zzo38> Have you made any .NSF with multiple tracks or only one track?
04:31:52 <zzo38> What expansion chips have you used?
04:32:01 <zzo38> Have you used multiple expansions at once sometimes?
04:32:14 <madbr> gimme a sec, have to reinstall a nsf player winamp plugin :D
04:32:25 <madbr> I've done vrc6 and vrc7
04:32:43 <madbr> and "nsf with software mixer" :D
04:32:57 <madbr> (I didn't do the software mixer, just the song)
04:33:05 <zzo38> I have once tried to write a software synthesis in a .NSF file but I could not get it to work.
04:33:32 <zzo38> But what I have written and got to work is a ZZT music player .NSF file.
04:36:45 <madbr> I like wizardry.nsf
04:36:57 <madbr> might be better with drumsamples tho :D
04:38:30 <zzo38> Yes it might be; viewing 00README.txt it will tell you none of them use DPCM samples at all (yet); I may later make some including DPCM, or make new versions of existing ones too
04:38:37 <madbr> oh another trick, when you play the same note on two channels it's best to very slightly detune them :D
04:38:57 <zzo38> All .mml files are public domain you are free to modify if you wish.
04:39:14 <zzo38> madbr: OK, I may do that.
04:39:56 <madbr> layering is especially nice on the vrc7
04:40:18 <zzo38> What do you mean by layering?
04:40:20 <madbr> you can get like 3 layers going with detuning and one being played slightly late
04:40:35 <madbr> playing the same melody on multiple channels but with slight differences
04:40:45 <madbr> like two different instruments
04:40:54 <zzo38> OK, yes I can understand that.
04:41:00 <madbr> or one with vibrato and one without vibrato
04:41:36 <zzo38> OK, yes, that too.
04:42:25 <zzo38> I have not done those but I have done some similar things; you can see the .mml files to see exactly what is done, if you want to.
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04:46:18 <zzo38> Did you read the 00README.txt?
04:47:39 <madbr> I think you should try famitracker
04:48:25 <madbr> I don't use it but the other modshrine (virt, coda, chibitech, etc...) guys swear by it
04:48:27 <zzo38> I know Famitracker; my brother uses that. I happen to like PPMCK, and I have made a lot of improvements to PPMCK as well.
04:49:31 <zzo38> As far as I know, Famitracker can only use one expansion chip at once.
04:49:52 <madbr> you music doesn't have enough vibratos and volume slides and note cuts and bends etc :D
04:50:37 <madbr> you need a tool where doing these things is easy and you can hear what you're doing very fast so you can put effects all over the place
04:50:43 <zzo38> Yes it does not have a lot of those. But that is just because I did not put them in.
04:51:06 <madbr> you need a tool where putting them in is easy
04:51:19 <madbr> if your tool makes it hard you're never going to fill your song with them
04:52:04 <zzo38> If I am going to use them, I will add commands for those things more easily in PPMCK; although for now I can find entering the volume manually is easy enough.
04:53:47 <zzo38> If I need them I will add those features, of course. One feature I have added recently to PPMCK is the ability to enter DPCM samples inline (instead of loading from a file); I might use that. Features I have added a while ago include * and ? commands, and I now use those a lot.
04:58:07 <zzo38> Some people prefer MCK, some prefer Famitracker, and some other people like NerdTracker.
04:58:16 <kmc> mainly nerds
04:58:27 <madbr> I thought nerdtracker was really old
04:58:46 <zzo38> Yes it is really old.
04:58:53 <zzo38> I don't know much about it.
04:59:05 <madbr> all I know is that when I tried it, it crashed :D
05:00:38 <madbr> you also gotta learn how to alternate long and short notes
05:01:42 <zzo38> In some musics I am writing more recently (not posted yet) I do use some crescendo, trill, and so on.
05:03:02 <zzo38> Trills can easily be written using the EN command. I am not very good at percussion, although I have tried a bit and "internationale.nsf" is using percussion although the original I took it from had none (I made up the percussion myself), but still only noise and not DPCM.
05:03:32 <madbr> there's still lots of stuff that can be done to help noise :D
05:03:43 <madbr> like have unequal volume on hihat lines
05:04:09 <madbr> and have snares have a really short burst of low low frequency noise
05:04:25 <madbr> then switch the normal med~hi frequency for the tail
05:04:39 <madbr> maybe try to give it a nice volume envelope
05:05:09 <zzo38> I believe you; but like I said I am not very good at percussion. I understand chords and that stuff because I studied it, but not percussion.
05:06:46 <madbr> it's true that it's harder to get info for percussion
05:07:15 <madbr> I've analysed stuff like samba percussion and it's pretty complex :D
05:12:24 <zzo38> The music I have composed myself is "zzo38_1" and it has no percussion, but it does include chords and moment of silence, and a few other things. I wanted to include some minor chords too but I ended up including only major chords (although there is a V/V (applied dominant) chord in there).
05:13:07 <madbr> dunno I though it was major chords that were an aquired taste :D
05:13:23 <madbr> in my music minor dominated for like years and is probably still most common
05:13:45 <zzo38> I have included the chord numbers in the file; mostly to help me to write it but also if people want to look
05:14:00 <zzo38> madbr: Did you write music in a minor key, or in a major key, though?
05:14:40 <madbr> I guess it's harder to use minor chords in major than major chords in minor, true :D
05:15:09 <zzo38> Chords in minor keys is more complicated.
05:15:37 <madbr> bass is easier to write tho
05:16:46 <zzo38> And yes it probably is harder to use minor chords in major than major chords in minor. In major key, minor chords are II, III, and VI (I wanted to use VI). In minor key, you can use the natural, melodic, or harmonic (usually harmonic, so that the major dominant chord is used), so you have more chords although that also makes it more complicated.
05:17:23 <madbr> gotta admit stuff like III isn't particularly useful
05:18:13 <madbr> yeah I always though the natural vs melodic minor stuff was overanalyzed
05:18:36 <madbr> you just pick the one that sounds the best for the particular thing you're writing on the spot
05:18:46 <zzo38> Yes that is one way to do it.
05:19:08 <madbr> it's kinda like picking which flavor of candy you want to eat :D
05:22:05 <zzo38> The books I studied use lowercase for minor and diminished chords, although I don't use that because it is difficult when hand-written. Some people just always use the uppercase and don't indicate major/minor. I use the uppercase, but when it is important to indicate major/minor/diminished I will write that too: + for major, - for major, x for augmented, o for diminished.
05:22:30 <madbr> I use "m" for minor
05:22:41 <zzo38> (In major keys it is rarely necessary to write that; but in minor keys it becomes more useful to write them)
05:23:06 <madbr> essentially I use jazz chord notation together with roman numerals
05:23:09 <zzo38> madbr: When writing the letter name of the chord I will use m for minor, but when writing the number I will use - for minor.
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05:23:45 <zzo38> (I normally use the roman numerals when I am writing music, though.)
05:23:46 <madbr> yeah II-7 is also common in jazz notation
05:24:56 <zzo38> If the music is written in a major key I won't bother writing II-7 and will just write II7 since it is understood that it is minor. (If I do need to indicate it major, I can write II+ but often it will be V/V instead of II anyways.)
05:25:16 <madbr> yeah I don't use V/V
05:25:25 <madbr> because it's ambiguous with inversions
05:26:10 <madbr> like I V/VII I7/bVII IV/VI IVm/bVI I/V V7b9
05:27:45 <zzo38> Can't you just write V6 and so on for first inversions?
05:29:47 <madbr> but then it's confusing it with, well, V6
05:32:04 <zzo38> The way I use the notation I won't mean that; when I write V6 I mean the V chord in first inversion. I will write it something else if I mean what you are doing such as calling the E a non-chord tone or something like that. At least, this is the way I do it. You can do it your way if it works better for you.
05:33:31 <madbr> I just take jazz notation and replace letters with roman numbers
05:33:40 <madbr> IMHO the most consistent notation
05:34:06 <zzo38> Well OK. I am using the classical notation since that is what I have studied.
05:34:30 <zzo38> Of course jazz notation works too, and so does jazz ntoation with roman numbers.
05:35:17 <madbr> I don't like how classical notation is inconsistent with sharps and flats
05:35:23 <madbr> like how they depend on your key
05:35:29 <zzo38> (Although I do not think jazz notation with roman numbers is common; do you know if anyone other than you uses it?)
05:37:10 <zzo38> madbr: Yes I know. I generally don't find it necessary to write the sharps and flats in the chord notation, though. Things other than the chords themself can be written with non-chord tones, and may be circled for reminder (sometimes it is also written what kind of non-chord tone, such as in analysis; I don't find this necessary).
05:37:59 <madbr> Ok how do you write Valt7 in classical notation
05:38:29 <zzo38> I don't know what that means; I don't know jazz notation very well.
05:38:44 <madbr> alt7 is a 7th chord with a bunch of alterations
05:39:04 <zzo38> I think I found it on Wikipedia. Let me look what it means.
05:39:33 <madbr> theoretically b9, #9, #11, #5
05:40:30 <madbr> Irl it's usually played as 7#5#9
05:41:31 <madbr> So Falt7 is something like A, Db, Eb, Ab in the keyboardist's left hand while the bass plays F
05:43:17 <SHACHAF> kmc: lexande_ has all the train answers.
05:43:23 <kmc> regarding?
05:44:05 <zzo38> It seems that "altered chord" in jazz could mean more than one kind of chord, according to the Wikipedia article.
05:44:31 <kmc> specifically?
05:45:08 <madbr> zzo: irl the classification is something like
05:45:17 <zzo38> I have never thought of writing such altered chords, but if I do I would probably just indicate that it is being altered and write the alterations on the notes rather than the chord notations.
05:45:22 <madbr> "does it have a #9?"
05:45:36 <madbr> (ie a major third and minor third at the same time)
05:46:01 <madbr> if yes -> does it have a normal 5th or a normal 6th?
05:46:15 <madbr> if it does, then it's a 7#9 or a 7b9
05:46:33 <madbr> if it has a #5 (aka b13 aka b6) then it's an alt7
05:50:00 <madbr> in jazz chords are often classified by which scale you play over them... alt7 is played over the so called "super-locrian" scale (C Db Eb E F# Ab Bb)
05:58:02 <madbr> so yeah that's the reason I like jazz notation... you can write classical chords in jazz notation easily, but not vice-versa
05:58:32 <zzo38> Well, OK; that is good for you then.
06:00:27 <zzo38> I have also invented cadence symbols (books I have seen just write out the words) (I have once suggested this to someone to forward my suggestion to the Royal Conservatory): P for perfect, P with a slash through it for imperfect, PL for plagal, D for deceptive. Circled for closed, a half-circle around for semi-closed, and no circle for open. (What I am calling "perfect" here is sometimes called an "authentic" cadence, but I learned "perfect")
06:01:58 <madbr> I can't remember what semi-closed was
06:04:13 <zzo38> Semi-closed means one or both chords are not in the root position or the second chord does not have the tonic in the soprano.
06:05:06 <madbr> I thought that was imperfect :o
06:06:06 <zzo38> That is also called imperfect; there are two different terminologies for cadences.
06:06:47 <zzo38> (I don't know why this is, but it is.)
06:08:11 <madbr> I think I didn't use closed cadences at all when I was younger but now I do :D
06:10:30 <zzo38> I have written some music which I did not put into the computer because it is too short.
06:14:43 <madbr> yeah that's why I use a tracker
06:14:51 <madbr> so that I can write music on the computer :D
06:15:47 <zzo38> My music "zzo38_1" was written directly on the computer, though. I did not use paper for that one.
06:16:02 <zzo38> (That is why the chord symbols are included in the comments.)
06:17:44 <zzo38> I have also written some music in the QBASIC PLAY command, without using paper or anything else. This is not polyphonic, though. But I have done so both using the built-in PLAY command for standard music, and my own PlayBP subroutine for Bohlen-Pierce.
06:19:13 <madbr> http://madbrain.devzero.co.uk/the_tomato_soup_case.mp3 <- this only has open cadences I think
06:19:25 <madbr> zzo: ho god bohlen-pierce
06:19:59 <madbr> you need to use tools with a faster feedback loop
06:20:43 <madbr> irl keyboard, midi sequencer, tracker, anything
06:23:18 <itidus21> i have no clue when it comes to composing music
06:23:42 <madbr> it's a learned skill :D
06:24:04 <zzo38> I find it easier to just write out the music first and then make corrections later. I do have an electric piano but I don't usually use it to write music. My father *only* writes music by playing it on the piano.
06:24:56 <madbr> zzo: what, you sing notes to yourself first until you have a melody that you like, then write it down?
06:24:59 <zzo38> Some composers were deaf and could still write music.
06:25:39 <madbr> zzo: yeah the classic beethoven thing but those are special cases
06:25:50 <zzo38> madbr: Generally I just think about it rather than singing it out loud, but generally yes. Sometimes I will write the chords first though, and sometimes a combination of the melody and chords.
06:26:27 <zzo38> And then I will play it on the piano or computer, and if it is no good I will adjust it.
06:27:24 <itidus21> zzo38: do you know about koji kondo and nobuo uematsu?
06:27:41 <zzo38> I know some things about them.
06:28:17 <madbr> dude do you know about mitsuda yasunori, the chrono trigger dude? :D
06:28:56 <itidus21> i recently got chrono trigger for my hacked ds though
06:29:11 <itidus21> that will probably be a positive experience when i eventually
06:29:34 <zzo38> When adding the percussion to the Internationale, I just added it based on seeing (not hearing) the dissonance in the music and writing percussion based on that. I don't know if that is the correct way or whatever to do percussion, but it sounded OK to me and to my brother.
06:30:35 <zzo38> This is how I do music. I don't do it live like many people do; I prefer the old way.
06:30:58 <itidus21> old ways are probably the best
06:31:16 <zzo38> itidus21: Well, to me it is anyways; other people may prefer other ways.
06:31:28 <fizzie> `runc int main(void) { unsigned buf[12], i; for (i = 0; i < 3; i++) { asm("cpuid" : "=a"(buf[4*i]), "=b"(buf[4*i+1]), "=c"(buf[4*i+2]), "=d"(buf[4*i+3]) : "a"(0x80000002u+i)); } puts((char*)buf); }
06:31:33 <HackEgo> AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 6128
06:31:40 <itidus21> i always like to be bitter and cynical about ways of game design (while indefinitly procrastinating doing it myself)
06:31:40 <fizzie> The truth is revealed!
06:31:47 <fizzie> (Maybe it wasn't such a secret.)
06:32:02 <madbr> the usual way of composing for percussion is something like telling the drummer "I want a bossa beat"
06:32:40 <madbr> zzo: it could have the kind of military marching snare beat thing
06:32:49 <itidus21> zzo38: i got a legitimate version of warioware diy. that has a feature to compose music.
06:33:00 <itidus21> but only a few seconds worth i think
06:33:41 <zzo38> madbr: Perhaps that is how they do it. But like I said I don't know much about percussion so I just did it by dissonance. (You can see and/or hear the percussion I have used if you want to.)
06:34:12 <itidus21> i knew when i was a child that nintendo was a seriously big deal
06:34:37 <itidus21> 20 years later, nothing has changed
06:34:58 <zzo38> I don't even know very well whether a bossa beat or this beat or that beat is better.
06:35:15 <zzo38> (Well, it is not only by dissonance that I did it by; I did it by rhythm and dissonance.)
06:35:33 <madbr> zzo: usually it works by style
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06:35:55 <madbr> swing jazz gets swing beat, bossa gets bossa beat
06:36:18 <fizzie> What gets the "fat beat" I've been hearing about? Fat musicians?
06:36:43 <madbr> metal gets the drummer pounding the kick with his double pedal like it's a pinata :D
06:39:26 <itidus21> i think if i was living alone, i would use the freedom to build instruments out of odds and ends
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06:40:09 <madbr> fusion jazz gets this complex break-beaty bossa-nova-ish swing-ish im-more-intelligent-than-you drumming :D
06:40:10 <zzo38> I suppose it is sort of like what I have done with rhythm, so it may be march or waltz time or whatever, although I have also done by dissonance.
06:40:10 <itidus21> but living with family, it becomes inappropriate to do such things
06:40:39 <zzo38> Probably you (and/or other people) can do percussion better than I do; I am not very good at percussion.
06:40:50 <itidus21> zzo38: every object can make music
06:41:04 <zzo38> itidus21: Yes and I have sometimes done so as well.
06:41:05 <madbr> zzo: you need a tool where it's easy
06:41:22 <madbr> like proper DPCM support or something :D
06:41:36 <madbr> and a couple of nice kick and snare samples that hit hard :D
06:41:51 <itidus21> i suppose that when making instruments the goal is to provide a finite set of sounds the instrument can make, which can be composed together
06:41:52 <zzo38> I don't have DPCM samples so I used noise instead.
06:42:26 <zzo38> (Actually I do have the ZZT DPCM samples. But they may not be that good of quality compared with proper drums.)
06:42:41 <madbr> itidus: every object can make music but not every object can play in equal temperament over 2 octaves with multiple different nuances :D
06:43:08 <madbr> zzo: my favourite source is old MODs
06:43:32 <madbr> sometimes they have killer bass and drum samples
06:43:37 <itidus21> madbr: my rants of always stating the obvious
06:43:39 <zzo38> madbr: Well I do have some of those, so I can look and convert to DPCM and see if it is good.
06:44:09 <madbr> the awesome ones that sounds like an explosion every 2 beats :D
06:44:33 <zzo38> But I don't know much about drums so I don't know what kind of drums to use, whether I had a drum kit or not.
06:45:04 <madbr> hihat needs lots of high frequencies tho so it doesn't work well on DPCM
06:45:10 <itidus21> if you wanted to make an arcade game, is microswitches and joysticks good, or is it just traditional?
06:45:13 <madbr> but it's easy to do with noise tho
06:45:32 <zzo38> OK, but I think I will go to bed now because it is late, but thanks for information.
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06:45:54 <itidus21> i suppose that its made for resilence
06:46:17 <madbr> not my domain of competence :D
06:46:24 <madbr> I'm a keyboard nut tbh
06:46:32 <itidus21> arcade machine peripherals designed to take heavy damage :D
06:49:12 <fizzie> I have a TAC-2 in a box somewhere; it's a Totally Accurate Controller. (Sort of irrelevant, because it doesn't have microswitches; it has a ball.)
06:49:36 <itidus21> madbr: my train of thought was, what would PC be like in arcade? how would it differ from internet cafe? oh crap it won't differ from internet cafe
06:51:53 <madbr> I think they have some specific industrial strength components
06:52:02 <madbr> and being always on
06:52:19 <madbr> I think that's also why they used roms for the longest time rather than disks
06:54:43 <pikhq> Magnetic disks, especially floppies, were really quite fragile, yeah...
06:54:56 <pikhq> And ROMs still worrk.
06:55:07 <pikhq> Mask ROMs probably will for centuries.
07:11:04 <itidus21> but still i suspect theres room for innovation in arcade game interfaces
07:14:59 <itidus21> i can think of a few inventions which would be absurd. a digital billiard table, where the entire table is a graphical display and some kind of sensors detect what the queue is doing
07:16:03 <itidus21> such a system would have the advantage of allowing AI opponents
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07:33:00 <madbr> I like the tactile response of actually hitting real balls :D
07:34:49 <itidus21> and i believe that a humble ball provides more accurate physics than what a super computer can muster
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10:23:47 <atriq> I wonder if there's anyone alive who met Eddie Morton
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11:20:30 <ais523> [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 77 seconds.
11:20:36 <ais523> it's going to be one of /those/ days again, isn't it?
11:25:08 <ais523> SHACHAF: also, that was really difficult to do in this client, I had to copy-paste a literal control-A
11:25:37 <SHACHAF> ais523: whoa, dude, that's weird.
11:25:42 <SHACHAF> 04:24 CTCP hi reply from ais523:
11:25:47 <SHACHAF> I've never gotten one of those before.
11:25:53 <SHACHAF> Usually it's a fancy NOTICE thing.
11:25:55 <ais523> SHACHAF: it was awkward to send in this client
11:26:04 <ais523> let me try giving it an argument
11:26:30 <fizzie> That's a big SHACHAF there.
11:28:01 <ais523> [CTCP] Received unknown CTCP-WHOADUDE IT STILL LOOKS WEIRD, MAN request from SHACHAF.
11:28:16 * ais523 decides not to send a reply
11:28:58 <ais523> [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 1,346,671,725 seconds.
11:29:10 <ais523> that's because I sent myself a ping backdated to the epoch
11:29:12 <ais523> rather than connection trouble
11:29:18 <SHACHAF> @google 1,346,671,725 seconds
11:29:28 <SHACHAF> I guess it'll be about 42 years.
11:30:36 <ais523> 42 years 9 months 3 days and around 12 hours
11:30:40 <ais523> depending on how this works with timezones
11:33:36 <fizzie> The PING argument isn't specified, so sometimes with two different clients connected to a bouncer you get rather funky PING replies as seen from the client that didn't send the request.
11:34:05 <fizzie> Some send seconds since epoch, some milliseconds since epoch, some seconds + space + micro/nanoseconds.
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12:10:59 <atriq> Rereading some Freefall: http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2100/fc02009.htm
12:11:33 <atriq> Then a while later: http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2300/fc02227.htm
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13:02:57 <atriq> asAppliedTo :: (a -> b) -> a -> (a -> b); asAppliedTo f _ = f
13:03:45 <atriq> :t let asAppliedTo :: (a -> b) -> a -> (a -> b); asAppliedTo f _ = f in (1+) `asAppliedTo` 0.5
13:03:46 <lambdabot> forall t. (Fractional t) => t -> t
13:05:16 <atriq> :t let asAppliedTo :: (a -> b) -> a -> (a -> b); asAppliedTo f _ = f in (1+) `asAppliedTo` pi
13:05:28 <atriq> :t let asAppliedTo :: (a -> b) -> a -> (a -> b); asAppliedTo f _ = f in (1+) `asAppliedTo` ceiling 2
13:05:55 <atriq> :t let asAppliedTo :: (a -> b) -> a -> (a -> b); asAppliedTo f _ = f in (1+) `asAppliedTo` (snd . properFraction) 2
13:06:12 <atriq> :t let asAppliedTo :: (a -> b) -> a -> (a -> b); asAppliedTo f _ = f in (1+) `asAppliedTo` significand 2
13:07:49 <atriq> I can't think of a way to get a Real constraint using this method
13:09:22 <atriq> > map (`scaleFloat` 1) [1..10]
13:09:23 <lambdabot> [2.0,4.0,8.0,16.0,32.0,64.0,128.0,256.0,512.0,1024.0]
13:12:33 <atriq> > let q = id in (id 1, id 'a')
13:12:58 <atriq> > let q = id in (q 1, q 'a')
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15:05:01 <atriq> Of my two favourite webcomics, one started when I was 14, the other when I was 6
15:05:09 <atriq> What could this mean?
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15:14:17 <fizzie> atriq: Your new favourite webcomic will be started when you turn 28, unless you already are.
15:14:40 <nortti> fizzie: what webcomic?
15:15:27 <fizzie> nortti: 18:05 < atriq> Of my two favourite webcomics, one started when I was 14, the other when I was 6
15:15:40 <fizzie> (The 6 was later fixed to be 7.)
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15:16:01 <fizzie> > iterate (*2) 7 -- your new favourite webcomic start ages
15:16:02 <lambdabot> [7,14,28,56,112,224,448,896,1792,3584,7168,14336,28672,57344,114688,229376,...
15:16:08 <atriq> I turn 28 in 10 years 2 months today
15:16:26 <fizzie> Hopefully you'll live to see the one that starts when you turn 229376, I hear it's quite a good one.
15:16:47 <atriq> Will they still have webcomics in 2890?
15:17:05 <fizzie> I suppose they'll be some kind of direct neural-fed qualiomics, but anyway.
15:17:27 <atriq> Will they still have webcomics in 2050, for that matter
15:17:51 <Arc_Koen> nah, in 2050 the internet will be about to disappear
15:19:04 <atriq> It's conceivable that IWC has readers younger than it.
15:19:34 <atriq> Is it bad I use GHCi as a calculator?
15:21:23 <atriq> Because it has 3 different exponentiation functions by defualt!
15:21:31 <atriq> :t ((^),(^^),(**))
15:21:32 <lambdabot> forall a b a1 b1 a2. (Num a, Integral b, Fractional a1, Integral b1, Floating a2) => (a -> b -> a, a1 -> b1 -> a1, a2 -> a2 -> a2)
15:22:03 <AnotherTest> If you do not find that is a problem, then it doesn't matter
15:22:20 <atriq> They represent slightly different things
15:22:46 <Arc_Koen> the word "feature" means "intentional problem", does it not?
15:23:05 <atriq> (^) is raising to a non-negative integer, (^^) to any integer, (**) to any real (ish)
15:23:15 <atriq> Thank you, lambdabot
15:23:21 <lambdabot> forall a. (Floating a, Integral a) => [a -> a -> a]
15:24:06 <AnotherTest> Why didn't they just overload one of these operators?
15:24:17 <atriq> Haskell isn't like that
15:24:47 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints:
15:24:47 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `toInteger' at <interactive>:1:0-11
15:25:28 <atriq> :t (pi, toInteger pi)
15:25:29 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints:
15:25:29 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `toInteger' at <interactive>:1:5-16
15:25:37 <atriq> :t let x = pi in (x, toInteger x)
15:25:38 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraints:
15:25:39 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `toInteger' at <interactive>:1:18-28
15:25:50 <atriq> Point is, it's impossible
15:26:00 <atriq> For something to be both Floating and Integral
15:26:37 <AnotherTest> I know there is something called overloading
15:26:38 <atriq> No, it uses a kind of polymorphism
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15:29:35 <kmc> i bet jerkcity has readers younger than it
15:29:43 <kmc> it would appeal to 14 year olds
15:32:12 <kmc> http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/im-comic-sans-asshole
15:33:53 <AnotherTest> Gutenberg actually only improved typography
15:35:12 <AnotherTest> I think he replaced the wooden shapes for the characters with iron shapes
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15:38:19 <kmc> "The world's first known movable-type system for printing was created in China around 1040 A.D. by Bi Sheng (990–1051) during the Song Dynasty;[1] following that, the first metal movable-type system for printing was made in Korea during the Goryeo Dynasty (around 1230)."
15:38:57 <AnotherTest> (that had the actual first thing to print)
15:38:57 <kmc> http://achewood.com/index.php?date=11242004
15:39:02 <kmc> hacked by chinese
15:41:47 <kmc> 'The Chinese government should definitely maintain hacked.gov.cn and provide little validation badges like that "TRUSTe" thing so you can confirm that a site really has been hacked by Chinese.'
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18:59:25 <zzo38> Do you know what IRC channel(s) they would know better of the stuff I am asking for RogueVM?
19:04:07 <nortti> "C++ suffers from problems causing reasonable-looking sentences to cause listeners to snap and try to kill you"
19:04:11 <nortti> "As my friend Jacob Gabrielson once put it, advocating Object-Oriented Programming is like advocating Pants-Oriented Clothing."
19:04:33 <zzo38> Is that how it works?
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19:06:43 <zzo38> Object oriented programming can sometimes be useful for some things. I do not believe it is best for all things.
19:08:58 <itidus21> i think one problem is it's easier to think about objects than it is to think about computation
19:09:27 <zzo38> I do not think it is always easier.
19:10:03 <itidus21> any fool can start thinking up object names
19:10:41 <zzo38> But that doesn't necessarily make it easier or more sensible. Sometimes the name will be no good.
19:10:43 <itidus21> but, like, understanding oop alone won't enable you to write an OS
19:10:57 <nortti> 22:10 < itidus21> any fool can start thinking up object names // and now I'm going to try to find why that message was hilighted
19:13:13 <itidus21> here is my Scheduler class, it is a member of my OS , all i have to do is fill in the members and i will be all set
19:15:07 <itidus21> no tidus, you should use design patterns. or else you're doing it wrong >:)
19:16:27 <itidus21> but i just want to fill in the members.. i don't have time to study patterns
19:20:35 <itidus21> zzo38: but whether the name is good or not is subjective, which gives the fools ground for argument
19:21:59 <kmc> itidus21: did you ever write a scheduler
19:22:01 <kmc> or any code
19:22:53 <itidus21> i'm arguing why oop may get a bad name, using myself as an exhibit
19:23:32 <itidus21> i didn't write a scheduler.. even the theory of them was probably too steep for me
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19:24:11 <kmc> you don't need much theory to write a simple scheduler
19:24:50 <pikhq> Naive schedulers are pretty simple.
19:25:19 <pikhq> Process scheduling? Circular linked list of processes.
19:25:46 <itidus21> kmc: my ability at coding is just a reflection of my life in general
19:25:51 <pikhq> It won't be ideal, but it's functional and really simple.
19:27:12 <pikhq> In general, you only need theory to do the clever bits of things. Just thwacking out something that works is mostly just a matter of effort.
19:27:39 <pikhq> (note: sans theory, you are going to be writing *really inefficient code* in certain cases. But it'll function.)
19:28:15 <itidus21> for what i think you mean by did i write any code, i didn't
19:29:04 <kmc> there are some problems you can't solve at all without some theory
19:29:13 <kmc> i don't think you can write a 3D renderer without understanding a little bit about 3D geometry
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19:32:18 <itidus21> i am quite an unhappy person overall. maybe some people accept what they can't change. in my case, what i can't change leaves me feeling trapped or whatever
19:32:36 <itidus21> some people, i guess they don't feel there is anything they can't change except death and taxes
19:32:57 <oerjan> ...this channel is not big enough for both itidus21 and me in the mood i'm in.
19:32:57 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:33:01 <lambdabot> AnotherTest asked 3h 48m 23s ago: Isn't '.' right after '+' in the ASCII table?
19:33:19 <itidus21> oerjan: but im learning im delusional!
19:33:54 <oerjan> @tell AnotherTest No. + = 43, . = 46
19:34:18 <itidus21> its like thinking you are living in a warzone and then learning that it's actually just a construction yard outside making all the noise
19:34:46 <itidus21> that is the feeling of recognizing momentarily that one is infact deluded
19:34:46 <oerjan> itidus21: when you say you are learning you are delusional, do you mean that your shrink is telling you that?
19:35:18 <itidus21> no, but if i may give you an example
19:35:42 <itidus21> i once thought someone who i was chatting to on the internet was in my backyard with a gun
19:35:55 <oerjan> ok i guess that's delusional.
19:36:10 <itidus21> but this was because i used to hear rodents or possums on the roof, and thought it was someone climbing around up there
19:36:20 <itidus21> i figured since my house is next to a park a hobo was sleeping on my roof
19:36:32 <kmc> itidus21: maybe you would feel better about yourself if you spent your time talking about something you do understand
19:36:48 <kmc> rather than saying wrong things about programming and then telling everyone how you're wrong
19:36:49 <oerjan> are you sure you are australian and not this guy i use to talk with in real life...
19:37:10 <lambdabot> Local time for itidus21 is Tue Sep 04 05:36:56
19:37:20 <itidus21> sure i could have changed my time to lie
19:37:22 <kmc> then again maybe you do actually understand programming and are just depressed or something
19:37:23 <oerjan> (that was a joke, he would never be able to pretend to be you)
19:37:48 <oerjan> he wouldn't even be able to find this channel without my help
19:39:22 <itidus21> kmc: i understand the basics.... i can do small simple problems given enough time.. but once it gets into topics like math or unix , i have absolutely no clue
19:40:14 <oerjan> so i attract delusional people, presumably a plot by the universe to make me realize i'm delusional...
19:40:46 <itidus21> as for functional stuff, i suppose that what happens is i have been not actually trying to do it, but searching for elusive meanings to it, like some grand idea
19:41:05 <oerjan> i also attract people who are willing to tell me i am, and thereby make me stop trusting them when i actually thought i needed their help. :(
19:42:06 <itidus21> and i am also fiercely in denial about not being a genius
19:43:14 <oerjan> itidus21: well chances are, merely from being on this channel, that you are smart enough to convince 50% of everybody you are a genius.
19:43:47 <itidus21> yeah.. i can throw words around pretty well!
19:44:01 <itidus21> i have absorbed a lot of vocabulary at the least!
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19:45:21 <zzo38> There is no great genius without some touch of madness.
19:45:27 <oerjan> damn housemate, don't ramp up the music volume
19:46:01 <itidus21> kmc: you really don't want to see the sort of "code" i produced in the past when trying to make a game..
19:46:20 <zzo38> Well, I do want to see.
19:46:24 <itidus21> maybe because i avoided getting feedback on it
19:46:38 <itidus21> and just learned like a wolf in the wild
19:46:41 <oerjan> itidus21: maybe you are doing cargo cult programming...
19:47:01 <oerjan> trying to make something which _looks_ like programming, without knowing what it actually is
19:49:00 <oerjan> darn maybe i'm doing cargo cult living
19:49:29 <itidus21> zzo38: i'm not sure what the best way to show code is
19:49:43 <kmc> oerjan: fake it 'till you make it
19:50:08 <itidus21> maybe if i just post a random ugly chunk of code on pastebin
19:50:29 <zzo38> No, sprunge is better.
19:50:48 <itidus21> i use winxp... i don't know that kind of thing
19:51:06 <zzo38> (In addition, doing so, you won't show anyone who doesn't want to see because posts to sprunge are not listed in public)
19:51:42 <oerjan> kmc: the trouble is i don't really want to live in the way everybody keeps advising me to do, _nor_ am i smart enough in that aspect to find my own way
19:52:05 <kmc> and which way do they advise you?
19:52:30 <itidus21> zzo38: well.. maybe another day!
19:53:18 <oerjan> kmc: as close to "normal" as possible.
19:53:25 <kmc> yeah but which aspects of "normal"
19:53:52 <oerjan> sorry, too painful to discuss
19:54:09 <zzo38> 2999 Funny Things To Do To Your Opponent's Computer:
19:54:14 <zzo38> # Remove the plug and replace it with a fake plug. When they ask you what's wrong with their computer, tell them this: "I was trying to fix your computer for you, so I opened it up and looked inside, and a lot of the wires inside weren't connected, so I connected all of them, and then I turned it on, it was all smoke..." When they go to the store to fix it, they will realize that the computer is working fine, it is just the wrong plug.
19:54:22 <zzo38> # Make a program that keeps changing the system time to a random time every five minutes.
19:54:30 <zzo38> # Change icons to point to different programs than what they actually say.
19:54:49 <zzo38> # Alter the spell-checker so that none of the words are real words anymore.
19:54:53 <nortti> I did that with our school computers
19:55:05 <kmc> one time i hex edited the school computers so the Start button said "Strat"
19:55:10 <nortti> (switched paint and word)
19:55:11 <zzo38> # Put 0a program on their comp0uter that types0 zeros0 at r0andom times, and/0or0 displays r0andom error00 messa0ges at0 random 0times0.
19:55:22 <zzo38> # Steal the ball from their mouse and play pinball with it. Tell them it is a pinball.
19:55:37 <zzo38> # Get a screenshot of their normal desktop and then replace the background picture with it.
19:55:55 <kmc> # Open up the case and rub your dick all over the inside
19:56:20 <zzo38> # Put the monitor upsidedown and put a sensor in it so that if it is turned right side up then the picture is still upsidedown.
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19:56:47 <nortti> zzo38: where did you find those?
19:57:07 <zzo38> I wrote most of them by myself; others were from other people I forget who.
19:57:15 <zzo38> (I also forget which ones)
19:57:51 <zzo38> # If there is more than one computer in the room, switch the keyboard inputs.
19:58:00 <nortti> is the list available somewhere?
19:58:11 <zzo38> They are in my FORTUNE file.
19:59:37 <itidus21> kmc: well one thing is that i have always thought about computers as having an associated display
20:00:46 <itidus21> my conception there may be slightly wonky. like i do realize that theres other forms of I/O but i'm fixated on the monitor
20:01:54 <itidus21> like, when learning about computers at some age or other i was pretty much dismissing anything which wasn't part of a video game playing system
20:01:57 <FireFly> # Install sysinternals' BSoD screensaver and turn off the "mouse movement closes screen saver" option
20:03:48 <nortti> zzo38: I can't find you fortune file on your gopher site. is it there somewhere?
20:04:09 <itidus21> also i tend to rely quite heavily on existing software...
20:04:31 <itidus21> and if i can't download the software to solve some task, i see that as being equivalent to not being able to do the task
20:04:40 <zzo38> Currently the file is not available; you can only request one entry at random.
20:04:47 <zzo38> (I may change that later)
20:06:25 <itidus21> oerjan: in reality i suppose i gotta say im the happiest overall i've ever been
20:06:44 <itidus21> but, in the past, i got higher highs, and lower lows
20:08:08 <itidus21> i think that one trouble i had was bumping into the wrong crowd online
20:08:58 <itidus21> theres no question that these were seriously fucked up people
20:09:40 <itidus21> somehow that chatroom pushed me over the edge
20:10:02 <itidus21> a sort of insanity that i haven't been able to shake
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20:12:53 <oerjan> `addquote <madbr> I like the tactile response of actually hitting real balls :D
20:13:01 <kmc> hehehe balls
20:13:04 <HackEgo> 859) <madbr> I like the tactile response of actually hitting real balls :D
20:13:19 <oerjan> i guess that won't survive but hey
20:14:27 <oerjan> i keep pondering whether to visit the dalnet #esoteric
20:15:52 <nortti-> start talkng about esolangs there
20:16:12 <itidus21> well, its not as if they actually know anything
20:16:28 <itidus21> having said this i havent actually been to such places
20:16:55 <oerjan> itidus21: i thought that was the kind of place you were referring to, which is why i mentioned it
20:17:17 <oerjan> something vaguely recalled about buddhism
20:17:27 <itidus21> ya, the yahoo buddhism chatroom
20:17:48 <itidus21> they're just not right in their heads
20:18:46 <itidus21> the only danger of any such chatrooms or such is psychological manipulation
20:22:28 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:24:29 <nortti-> at #esoteric@dalnet there are only 3 people (including me) and no ops
20:26:18 <itidus21> i am not meaning that esoterica is bad, but it is surely wild and volatile
20:26:36 <oerjan> i guess my chances of finding the secrets to the universe there are essentially non-existent, then.
20:27:29 <itidus21> its kind of like the way that harley riders have some perception of being in gangs
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20:32:24 <nortti-> (killuminati) how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsiepop
20:32:38 <nortti-> (killuminati) please, serious esoteric answers only
20:33:51 <oerjan> that clearly depends on how many angels can dance on it
20:34:13 <itidus21> so.. there you can see he has swapped the word questions with answers
20:35:22 <nortti-> (nortti) (oerjan) that clearly depends on how many angels can dance on it
20:35:32 <nortti-> (killuminati) okay stop trolling
20:38:14 <oerjan> but only angels have the patience not to bite into it!
20:38:34 <oerjan> using their famous tootsie roll pop licking dance
20:40:29 <itidus21> i didn't mean any offence to zzo, or anyone, when being negative about esoterica
20:41:15 <oerjan> zzo cares about esoterica?
20:41:44 <itidus21> when i saw him quit i worried if it was something i said
20:42:03 <itidus21> but i think people often worry if it was something they said when someone quits after you say something
20:42:48 <oerjan> WHY ARE YOU AFRAID OF MY SCARYCAPS
20:43:59 <kmc> so what is the yahoo buddhism chatroom like
20:44:09 <kmc> is it full of, like, westerners who call themselves "buddhist" but know nothing about buddhism
20:44:13 <oerjan> zzo managed to get all into the astrolog program purely (afaik) for the astronomical calculation possibilities
20:45:20 <itidus21> ok, i think someone joked about when "they" finally wake him up
20:46:32 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14704
20:46:53 <itidus21> kmc: hmm.. .... i don't even know how to answer that... it was too weird to explain
20:47:58 <oerjan> itidus21: that will only find the literal string "wake up", btw
20:48:19 <itidus21> you had proponents of various forms of buddhism, platoists, a lot of arguing, sex lies and video tape :P
20:50:42 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.7876
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20:51:21 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18790
20:51:44 <HackEgo> grep: nothing to repeat \ http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8439
20:53:39 <oerjan> itidus21: it's .* not * in regexps
20:54:17 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28185
20:54:19 <oerjan> also there's no need for it at the beginning and end
20:54:21 <itidus21> i didnt think that one out carefully
20:54:37 <oerjan> well it didn't seem to hurt much
20:55:10 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17009
20:55:33 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3525
20:56:05 <itidus21> ok that one has me on the trail
20:58:35 <itidus21> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-07-30 @ 01:14:20
21:01:09 <nortti-> (nortti) (oerjan) using their famous tootsie roll pop licking dance
21:01:28 <nortti-> ** VenusSatanas has joined #esoteric
21:03:43 <oerjan> what horrible grammar, it should be VenusSatanis
21:04:33 <oerjan> you didn't copy that, right? >:)
21:05:38 * oerjan swats nortti- -----###
21:06:20 <nortti-> I have copied everything you havevsaod about that
21:08:40 <oerjan> darn the latin link in wiktionary doesn't work
21:09:55 <itidus21> oerjan: or it could be intentionally wrong
21:10:33 <itidus21> an example of my delusions at play
21:12:03 <oerjan> apparently it can be either Satan or Satanas, but neither has a latin wiktionary item
21:12:23 <itidus21> i have a latin dictionary, but yeah...
21:12:28 <itidus21> the headwords alone aren't enough
21:13:07 <oerjan> well this is obviously nominative singular so _should_ be the headword
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00:08:54 <zzo38> Can "a is equal to this formula's Godel number" be implemented in Typographical Number Theory?
00:20:15 <SHACHAF> Wasn't that the whole point of Typographical Number Theory?
00:27:32 <zzo38> SHACHAF: Not really; they specified a formula to mean that itself is not provable; this is different.
00:30:17 <SHACHAF> Well, in order to do that, you have to be able to talk about the formula's Gödel number.
00:30:51 -!- elliott has joined.
00:31:01 <elliott> Hey I'm going to dump lines I need in here
00:31:02 <elliott> PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL = 'http://%(hostname)s/pipermail/%(listname)s/'
00:31:41 <elliott> oerjan: I deleted some spam today!
00:33:28 <elliott> TODO: -- do I need to care about this?
00:33:29 <elliott> # Pipermail assumes that message bodies contain US-ASCII text.
00:33:29 <elliott> # Change this option to define a different character set to be used as
00:33:29 <elliott> # the default character set for the archive. The term "character set"
00:33:29 <elliott> # is used in MIME to refer to a method of converting a sequence of
00:33:29 <elliott> # octets into a sequence of characters. If you change the default
00:33:30 <elliott> # charset, you might need to add it to VERBATIM_ENCODING below.
00:34:44 <elliott> fizzie: Do you know about Postfix?
00:34:48 <elliott> What are these virtual domain things?
00:36:27 <SHACHAF> 17:33 <elliott> TODO: -- do I need to care about this?
00:36:27 <SHACHAF> 17:33 <elliott> # Pipermail assumes that message bodies contain US-ASCII text.
00:36:27 <SHACHAF> 17:33 <elliott> # Change this option to define a different character set to be used as
00:36:29 <SHACHAF> 17:33 <elliott> # the default character set for the archive. The term "character set"
00:37:33 <SHACHAF> I didn't get welcomed in here for some reason.
00:37:46 <HackEgo> SHACHAF: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
00:40:28 <Lumpio-> 03:33:29 < elliott> # Pipermail assumes that message bodies contain US-ASCII text.
00:40:33 <Lumpio-> Good grief, what is this, the 80s?
00:43:04 <Arc_Koen> if I'm in the middle of making a language but it's not complete yet, should I make a wiki page for it or not?
00:43:10 <oerjan> the haskell.org pipermail definitely does _not_ format non-plain-ascii readably, i've noticed.
00:43:42 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: tradition says YES NO YES NO
00:43:44 <SHACHAF> @quote elliott unsafeCoerce
00:43:44 <lambdabot> elliott says: <elliott> I like how edwardk's answer to every question always goes "most abstract solution to the problem possible --> microoptimisation details". <elliott> I swear I've seen him go
00:43:44 <lambdabot> from category theory to unboxed types and unsafeCoerce in a single line of IRC.
00:43:57 <Arc_Koen> hmm that's an interesting answer oerjan
00:44:10 <elliott> <Lumpio-> Good grief, what is this, the 80s?
00:44:30 <Arc_Koen> I guess i'll wait till it's a little more presentable
00:44:35 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: we will appreciate if you use preview rather than saving every tiny change, however.
00:45:02 <elliott> Arc_Koen: I will present one guideline: the first version of the page should contain a little more detail than http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Ragaraja&oldid=33401.
00:45:44 <oerjan> elliott: WHAT HAVE YOU DONE
00:45:50 <Arc_Koen> also, is their a name for languages which are based on data structure which behaviour is random?
00:47:02 <Arc_Koen> elliott: though it seems that older version of that page contain more details
00:47:26 <elliott> that's the oldest version of that page, in fact
00:47:45 <elliott> oerjan: So what's up, I am out of the loop. possibly out of several loops. all of the loops?
00:48:56 <oerjan> elliott: well Fueue has been up, several interpreters and programs were written, include a TC proof (by guess who)
00:49:44 <elliott> oerjan: I guess... SHACHAF.
00:50:12 <oerjan> i don't think atriq's interpreter is linked yet. (that's Taneb btw)
00:50:22 <Arc_Koen> I wake up one morning, check the fueue page, and it includes a section saying that it is turing complete... I come here, ask people what happened, and apparently the only sign was oerjan saying "another day, another TC proof" before going to sleep
00:50:23 <oerjan> elliott: a very ... something ... guess.
00:50:58 <elliott> Yes, I know about atriq. I'm not *that* out of the loop yet.
00:51:03 <Arc_Koen> nope I can see only mines on the page and I would very much like to see atriq's
00:51:18 <elliott> Arc_Koen: oerjan likes to surprise us like that
00:51:25 <oerjan> i am pretty sure i mumbled something about underload (minus S) possibly being convertible to fueue before that
00:52:13 <Arc_Koen> also i found a truth machine in fueue on the truth machine's page, was that you?
00:52:27 <oerjan> no i don't think that was me
00:53:02 <Arc_Koen> so I had an idea for a language where variables are shuffled every now and then
00:53:20 <SHACHAF> oerjan: What's wrong with guessing that I did a TC proof?
00:53:28 <SHACHAF> Is it because I don't care about esolangs?
00:53:29 <oerjan> no Taneb did the truth-machine back in february
00:54:03 <oerjan> SHACHAF: it's not what i was hinting, anyway.
00:54:13 <Arc_Koen> so, variables are shuffled, like "it's annoying but deal with it, and try to prove that this language is still usable"
00:54:56 <oerjan> i don't recall precisely, there was one where the values of variables degraded...
00:55:42 <Arc_Koen> (can't find anything about "degrade" or "degrading" or whatever on the wiki, though)
00:55:58 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Nondeterministic may have similar languages
00:56:07 <Arc_Koen> (also it's 3am here and I vaguely remember 4 hours ago when I told myself "let's go to sleep now", so i'll be off)
00:56:22 <itidus21> occasionally shuffling variables sounds original
00:56:58 <Arc_Koen> well basically the date structure is a queue + nine variables (or another arbitrary number)
00:57:05 <Arc_Koen> except that there is no "pop" function
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00:57:33 <Arc_Koen> but whenever one of the nine cells's value is 0, it is immediately filled with the next number in the queue
00:57:48 <Arc_Koen> immediately followed by all nine variables being shuffled
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00:58:33 <monqy> what's the occasion
00:58:41 <SHACHAF> monqy: It's time to capitalize on the occasion,.
00:58:58 <Arc_Koen> anyway, have a nice good end of the night or whatever time it is
00:59:31 <oerjan> hm i cannot find the language i was thinking of
01:02:23 <Arc_Koen> I've seen several joke languages along the lines of "instructions have a random behaviour" but they were nothing more than jokes
01:02:58 <monqy> were they even jokes?
01:03:26 <oerjan> there is Sortle but it does the opposite of shuffling :)
01:04:24 <elliott> monqy: no the ywere odd jokes ha ha
01:04:26 <oerjan> "•Each Sorted! program is, in fact, sorted, albeit randomly. Hence the name!"
01:08:53 -!- Arc_Koen has left.
01:09:25 <Sgeo> I'm confused about Sortle
01:09:34 <Sgeo> The hello world example
01:10:00 <Sgeo> When hello renames itself to "hello, world", doesn't that get re-inserted before quit, and so shouldn't it get evaluated again?
01:10:35 <Sgeo> Hmm, I guess I'm uncertain about where evaluation resumes
01:11:29 <itidus21> i just had a sort of idea, while looking at huby.. a language which enforces a specific coding style
01:12:50 <itidus21> i was thinking of c or c++ in particular.. especially forcing you to use exact names for the arguments to main
01:13:40 <itidus21> so **argv would be valid, but *argv[] would be invalid and **argsv would be invalid
01:15:28 <hagb4rd> you can only achieve the final state of sophisticated huby coding while beeing naked
01:16:29 <itidus21> well.. i was looking at huby and i thought... what if it had code around it to make it a c polyglot?
01:17:15 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: Changing server).
01:17:25 <itidus21> then i thought, what if you had to copy certain text exactly at the start and end of a huby program
01:23:05 <SHACHAF> kmc: 18:22 <typoclass> SIGCHAF: thanks
01:23:44 <oerjan> Sgeo: looking at the comments of the perl implementation, control passes to the next expression after the _new_ place of the currently evaluated one
01:23:57 <oerjan> unless it was deleted entirely
01:24:23 <SHACHAF> Segmentation fault (core dumped)
01:24:56 <Sgeo> oerjan, spec should say that
01:35:25 <zzo38> Can you put support to configure number of bits in a byte, in LLVM?
01:38:04 <zzo38> They did not respond to me.
01:46:01 <zzo38> RogueVM uses 32 bits in a byte so it would be useful to allow you to set bits in a byte to whatever you want, so this way it can combine for RogueVM, as well as systems with other numbers such as 36 bits, 7 bits, 18 bits, or whatever else it is.
01:46:52 <oerjan> zzo38: does it have a separate concept of words? otherwise why not just declare 32 bits to be a word.
01:47:10 <oerjan> since it's 4 ordinary bytes
01:47:48 <oerjan> i guess you'd need to turn off byte-specific instructions somehow
01:48:02 <Sgeo> Does anyone in here play Backgammon?
01:48:12 <Sgeo> Actually, I think I became interested in Backgammon because of here
01:50:57 <zzo38> oerjan: RogueVM has no separate concept of words, but it calls 32 bits a byte, and 8 bits an octet. There are some instructions that deal with 64-bit numbers, but usually 32-bit numbers are dealt with. Addresses point to 32-bit words which is why it is called a byte.
01:51:42 <zzo38> But yes those things about LLVM are the thing to consider; I would want it to be part of the machine specification, to specify the number of bits in a byte, defaulting to 8 (current LLVM always uses 8 as far as I know, and this cannot be changed).
01:54:10 <zzo38> Sgeo: I know Backgammon; someone showed me how to play, once. I have thought of making Backgammon Card, too. I sometimes play on X-BIT.
01:55:05 <zzo38> (The backgammon against computer played on X-BIT does not implement the doubling cube, and the person who showed me how to play at first also did not know how to use doubling cube, although I have later read a book to learn what it means.)
01:55:47 <zzo38> oerjan: Octets are mostly used in describing the file format of RogueVM (the file format is actually a ZIP archive).
01:56:03 <pikhq> zzo38: You could just use more normal terminology: you deal in 8 bit bytes and 32 bit words.
01:56:28 <zzo38> pikhq: A "byte" is defined as the unit that the address points to.
01:57:00 <pikhq> zzo38: A "byte" is more commonly defined as an octet, regardless of how addressing works.
01:57:49 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes that is also one way it is defined; but I use "byte" in the other meaning. (I think the PDP-11 or something actually had another different meaning of "byte" than these two.)
01:58:39 <zzo38> Thanks for the comments anyways; perhaps I should mention it with "N.B." or something like that to avoid confusion.
01:58:55 <zzo38> (It is currently mentioned in the introduction, but not with "N.B.".)
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02:26:21 <Sgeo> In a luck-involving game such as backgammon, do the future rolls of the dice count as "hidden information"?
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02:33:03 <oerjan> Sgeo: i don't think so, no
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04:24:48 <Sgeo> I sometimes feel like my thought processes are glacial: Slow but powerful
04:24:54 <Sgeo> It's the "slow" part that distresses me
04:25:07 <Sgeo> I feel like I sometimes rely on cached mental formulas to do stuff quickly
04:25:26 <zzo38> I also think slow sometimes (but sometimes faster)
04:25:40 <zzo38> Those other stuff too yes I do sometimes too
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05:31:13 <HackEgo> elliott: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:31:15 <HackEgo> Eladith: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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06:16:09 <oklopol> Sgeo: at least in my game theory book randomness and hidden information are different chapters :P
06:19:42 <oklopol> perhaps it's only hidden information if it's not hidden to everyone?
06:25:22 <fizzie> elliott: I do have some Postfix installations, if that counts.
06:26:32 <elliott> fizzie: too bad i worked it out i think
06:26:37 <elliott> fizzie: why does it all suck and crap
06:27:11 <fizzie> I don't have life installations, so I don't really know about that.
06:27:49 <zzo38> pikhq_: I added "N.B." for the byte meaning 32 bits in this document since it is an important note ("N.B." is Latin for "important note")
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07:07:21 <zzo38> Have you ever made a C code including things like this: struct { void*x[sizeof(short)==2?1:-5]; }
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07:09:18 <zzo38> SHACHAF: Yes that is what it will do
07:09:32 <SHACHAF> zzo38: I think the conventional way to write it isn't quite like that.
07:09:40 <SHACHAF> But I'm not surprised that you would write it like that. :-)
07:10:12 <zzo38> But you cannot use sizeof in the preprocessor!
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07:18:14 <fizzie> If you're writing C11 (I'm sure everybody is by now, it's already 2012!) you can write it as _Static_assert(sizeof(short) == 2, "my shorts are the wrong size");
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08:18:07 <atriq> Is "Juan de Vojnkov" someone on here?
08:18:13 <atriq> Because Google+ thinks I may know him
08:21:58 <atriq> Oh dear god what is PEX
08:23:34 <atriq> Also, is it bad that I call the Windows key on my keyboard "the flag button"?
08:27:26 <fizzie> By PEZ do you mean the candy dispenser things?
08:27:58 <atriq> I mean the thing that is referred to in the topic
08:28:08 <atriq> Which apparently has something to do with candy
08:28:09 <fizzie> Oh. Well, it does mention candy.
08:28:38 <fizzie> PEZ are these spring-loaded things where you stack candy to, and then you turn the "head" of it, and candy comes out.
08:28:50 <fizzie> It's kind of like killing small critters by twisting their necks, and then candy.
08:29:20 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hello_Kitty_PEZ_dispenser_open_II.jpg -- kind of like this in action.
08:29:48 <fizzie> Though from what I seem to recall, the candy used to be pretty much white always, no matter what the official flavour was. That's very pink.
08:30:40 <fizzie> "Some Pez dispensers can sell for large amounts as collectibles. The highest verifiable sale of a Pez dispenser was a private sale of a Mickey Mouse softhead at $7000 between an Austrian dealer and a US collector."
08:30:58 <fizzie> "Conventions are also annually held in Austria, Finland, Sweden, and in the US in Missouri, California, Minnesota, Connecticut and South Carolina."
08:31:04 <fizzie> What's Finland doing on that list?
08:31:30 <atriq> Maybe they're mixing Finland up with a thin lad
08:32:03 <fizzie> Anyway, they sell also candy-only packages, so you can keep using your favourite dispenser.
08:32:31 <fizzie> I think I have a single PEZ device at home.
08:33:57 <fizzie> As for the key, I've heard it called the "logo key" by people who don't want to reference Windows, but apparently "flag key" is used too.
08:34:21 <atriq> It confuses people who I'm talking to
08:34:28 <atriq> When I say "press the flag key"
08:34:40 <atriq> "You know, the one with the flag on it"
08:34:49 <atriq> "Oh, the start button"
08:34:55 <atriq> "Yeah, on the keyboard"
08:36:41 <fizzie> You can start calling it the "super key", that's what it usually produces.
08:37:40 <fizzie> (Caution: Might also confuse people.)
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08:46:12 <atriq> Well, that was all I had to say
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12:00:23 <Arc_Koen> @tell oerjan is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Entropy the language you were talking about?
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12:10:56 <Arc_Koen> atriq: so I haven't seen your haskell fueue interpreter
12:11:47 <atriq> I'm doing a thing with it
12:12:00 <atriq> And I really ought to make back ups, but I don't
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12:57:53 <Sgeo> Woah wait what
12:58:14 <Sgeo> XChat is abandoned and XChat-WDK got renamed to HexChat and seeks to take over?
13:02:29 <fizzie> The former was I thought kind of old news. At least there hasn't been any releases in quite a while.
13:05:09 <atriq> For people from Hexham?
13:09:40 <atriq> For people cursed to be from Hexham!?
13:16:03 <fizzie> A fate worse than death?!
13:17:00 <atriq> We've got a swimming pool and a bowling alley
13:17:07 <atriq> And a lot of restaurants
13:17:25 <atriq> So, unless you need tex-mex and want a 100m swimming pool, Hexham's pretty good
13:17:50 <atriq> #hexham-tourist-board
13:19:44 <fizzie> Oh, no tex-mex? I thought that was kind of everywhere.
13:20:23 <fizzie> There was one in Järvenpää, which is kind of nowhere.
13:20:24 <atriq> We've got French, Greek, two Italian (plus a take-away), Thai, Chinese..
13:20:41 <atriq> Three Chinese and a take-away
13:20:42 <fizzie> Well, I suppose it was kind of Tex-Mex/Finnish ice-hockey bar hybrid.
13:20:49 <atriq> The take away has nice chips
13:20:50 <fizzie> But it did look a bit out of place.
13:21:15 <fizzie> And I suppose Järvenpää is larger, population 38,993.
13:21:53 <atriq> We don't have a climbing wall, either
13:22:08 <atriq> But there are two small football teams(!)
13:26:50 <atriq> No fast food, either
13:27:08 <Gregor> Or maybe that's not so unusual for the UK *shrugs*
13:27:13 <atriq> McDonald's tried to open one, but they couldn't get planning permission
13:27:17 <Gregor> In the US, a small town without some burger joint is incomprehensible.
13:27:18 <atriq> It is pretty unusual for the UK
13:27:49 <Gregor> Man. No fast food, and, because you're British, you don't know how to cook eggs.
13:27:53 <Gregor> How the hell do you Hexhamites live?
13:28:03 <atriq> Slowly, and without eggs
13:28:50 <Gregor> Hard to argue with that logic *shrugs*
13:29:13 <atriq> We've got a few chippies, and they're kind of like fast food places
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13:34:54 <itidus21> even i can cook eggs.. i know 2 styles! hard boiled and fried.
13:35:52 <itidus21> my dad was keen on the idea of cooking eggs inside a sandwich maker, but that just doesn't work man
13:37:58 <Gregor> “Fried” is at least five styles. If you don't agree, then you don't know how to cook eggs ;)
13:38:24 <Gregor> (At lest six if you categorize “scrambled” within “fried”)
13:38:28 <itidus21> ok ill be specific, i know how to take a frying pan, put some oil in it, and break an egg into it
13:38:39 <itidus21> and end up with something edible
13:38:48 <Gregor> See, even Brits can get that far, but they don't know how to cook an egg.
13:38:58 <Gregor> Because {under,over} {easy,medium,hard} are all different.
13:39:38 <Gregor> And they don't recognize that breaking a yolk can be a good thing.
13:39:55 <fizzie> We don't know how to cook an egg either.
13:40:18 <Gregor> It's reaaaaaaaally fun bringing foreigners to breakfast restaurants by the way.
13:40:27 <Gregor> “How do you want your eggs?” “... cooked?”
13:40:59 <fizzie> Though we do tend to have these "no-brand" in-a-non-mobile-trailer kind of fast food "places" quite often.
13:41:25 <Gregor> fizzie: Food carts! Food carts can be FANTASTIC (or horrifying)
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13:42:03 <fizzie> Ours are on the determinedly non-fantastic end of the scale. Though I understand late night their queues make for the most popular places to get a knife in you.
13:42:38 <fizzie> At least if you make the mistake of opening your mouth.
13:42:55 <Arc_Koen> Gregor: the only brits I've seen cooking eggs took the frying pan, broke an egg on it, and then put oil on it
13:42:57 <fizzie> http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grillikioski
13:43:15 <Gregor> Arc_Koen: So they can't even get that part right???
13:43:28 <Gregor> fizzie: Well, if you ever find yourself in Portland, Oregon, do yourself a favor and don't shirk the food carts.
13:43:35 <itidus21> Arc_Koen: oh, i at least took the effort of heating the pan first, and i got the oil out of a can with a broken nozzle
13:43:45 <fizzie> Gregor: What a coincidence: I'll be flying to Portland, Oregon this Saturday.
13:44:09 <fizzie> (And then back out from there next... Thursday.)
13:44:11 <Arc_Koen> Gregor: in their defense it was only a student house restaurant
13:44:30 <itidus21> it was a mess, i felt like a cook from one of those horror movies who serves nothing actually edible
13:44:32 <fizzie> Gregor: There's the Interspeech 2012 conference Sun-Thu.
13:45:36 <fizzie> Some Hilton Tower This Or That.
13:45:38 <fizzie> "Hilton Portland & Executive Tower".
13:45:56 <Gregor> There's a block o' food carts about four blocks up from that.
13:45:58 <itidus21> basically i can't cook eggs good enough to serve to others
13:46:51 <fizzie> There will probably be colleagues interested about lunch, I'll recommend the cart thing. Though I seem to recall reading something about Portland's food carts in wikitravel or somewhere, so I suppose they're kind of known.
13:47:07 <Gregor> They are. It's no myth.
13:47:56 <fizzie> Okay, off to go buy some just-in-case dollars. ->
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15:12:44 <lambdabot> AnotherTest: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:12:52 <lambdabot> oerjan said 19h 38m 58s ago: No. + = 43, . = 46
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15:33:02 <AnotherTest> Well that depends of his definition of "right after"
15:35:13 <AnotherTest> but for an alphabet consisting of only alphanumeric characters and + and ., ordered by their ASCII values; '.' would be right after '+' for sure
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18:49:57 <kmc> so is MySQL the PHP of databases
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18:52:15 <kmc> that was my impression as well
18:52:22 <kmc> have googled the phrase "PHP of databases" and found many people who agree
18:52:43 <kmc> but this is not exactly an unbiased way to decide on MySQL vs. PostgreSQL
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18:56:08 <fizzie> What's the PHP of freenode channels? (... #php?)
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19:01:07 <atriq> What's the PHP of server-side web languages?
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19:03:32 <kmc> what's the PHP of analogies
19:03:43 <itidus21> apparently windows is the php of operating systems
19:03:46 <kmc> probably car analogies
19:04:13 <kmc> or monad tutorials
19:04:23 <fizzie> fungot: What's the PHP of IRC bots?
19:04:24 <fungot> fizzie: yes 15 minutes, throws out the tea, and steeps for 15 minutes
19:05:21 <AnotherTest> what the php of esoteric programming languages?
19:05:23 <fizzie> I had a script somewhere that could use fungot to continue sentences. It can be used to determine things. (Just things, in general.)
19:05:23 <fungot> fizzie: can you read from it......
19:06:05 <itidus21> "Windows is the PHP of operating systems, it turned up late, got real popular, got tons of shit supporting it and it's still shit."
19:06:48 <AnotherTest> Linux would be like the Perl of operating systems.
19:07:33 <itidus21> "I had to change aux to auxm as Windows does not allow files named aux. After that the bare mode worked." "You should've seen my face when I realized you were speaking the truth :) Is windows the PHP of operating systems or what?!"
19:08:41 <nortti> AnotherTest: what would be lisp of operating systems?
19:08:52 <nortti> forth of operating systems is forth
19:09:04 <itidus21> Plan 9 is the LISP of operating systems.
19:09:39 <nortti> well I have been wanting to try plan9 for some time
19:09:53 <fizzie> Genera is kind of also the LISP of operating systems.
19:10:09 <nortti> AnotherTest: lisp isn't long gone
19:10:12 <AnotherTest> It should be an operating systems with lots of variants
19:10:15 <nortti> AnotherTest: neither is solaris
19:10:46 <fizzie> Linux: the everything of operating systems.
19:11:22 <nortti> why there isn't a x86 port of genera?
19:11:33 <itidus21> Tcl is the scripting language of Tk, Visual Basic of Windows, (a form of) Lisp of Emacs, PHP of web servers, and Java and Javascript of web browsers.
19:11:44 <AnotherTest> internet explorer is also the php of browsers
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19:12:31 <nortti> and now I am wondering why itidus21's message was hilighted
19:13:01 <Lumpio-> I haven't seen a single valid use for Java in a browser in a long time.
19:13:09 <itidus21> nortti: ill try a binary search
19:13:14 <fizzie> Old highlight set for "visual basic" to catch all those interesting discussions?
19:13:26 <itidus21> Tcl is the scripting language of Tk, Visual Basic of Windows, (a form of) Lisp of Emacs,
19:13:39 <itidus21> Visual Basic of Windows, (a form of) Lisp of Emacs,
19:14:04 <itidus21> of Windows, (a form of) Lisp of Emacs,
19:16:21 <nortti> I seem to have hilights for nortti, oonbotti, dfc, touhou, 666, forth, lisp, glibc
19:29:21 <Arc_Koen> hey does anyone know if there's a way to force a column in a class:wikitable to be a certain larger? (so that no newlines are inserted)
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19:38:14 <nortti__> fizzie: do you know why I'm banned from ##asm?
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20:00:57 <zzo38> I have thought of backgammon card rules: You use the cards 1 to 6 from a deck of cards of four suits (24 cards in total). You have eighteen stones, four of which are suited (one for each suit) and the rest unsuited. Each player is dealt five cards, four face down and one face up. Doubles are only redoubled if both cards are of the same color as well.
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20:13:30 <atriq> Tell the channel Homestucks!
20:19:07 <nortti> http://m.engadget.com/2012/09/04/unreleased-nokia-lauta-qwerty-slider-emerges/ I hope it is really called lauta and that is not just something lost in translation
20:24:08 <fizzie> nortti: The underlines, but I guess you found that out.
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20:51:19 <zzo38> I realized, the reason the person who shown me how to play backgammon, did not know the doubling cube, as well as a few other variants, is because it is Persian rules. Persian rules do not use doubling cube, and a piece hitting an opponent's piece in your home cannot move again on the same turn.
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20:55:23 <Arc_Koen> about the doubling cube, many strategy or tactic games could use it as a variant
20:56:04 <Arc_Koen> as long as you can have something similar to backgammons 1-2-3 points in a leg (a simple victory, a gammon or a backgammon)
20:56:05 <Phantom_Hoover> There... is a Kickstarter for a Homestuck adventure game. By Hussie.
20:58:27 <zzo38> (Also in the Persian rules, you cannot score three points per game; only up to two are allowed.)
20:58:48 <atriq> That was the thing
20:59:47 <atriq> Which I have spoken of
21:01:05 <Phantom_Hoover> counterargument, what kind of real life includes a homestuck adventure game
21:01:21 <atriq> Obviously, a really awesome one.
21:05:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I also note that they inexplicably void shipping charges to Fiji.
21:06:27 <atriq> Because Hussie ships Fiji
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21:09:05 <atriq> Yeah, the Titanic, the Red Oktober, ALL OF THEM
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21:15:32 <itidus21> real life is overall stranger than homestuck
21:16:02 <itidus21> infact, homestuck is a part of real life, giving an indication of just how strange real life is :P
21:16:36 <atriq> None of those dollars are mine
21:16:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Also itidus21 is right I'm afraid, Homestuck is mostly confusing due to lack of a time slider during flashes.
21:17:34 <atriq> Homestuck as paradoxspacetime
21:17:52 <atriq> It's getting to the time when I don't let myself post on Tumblr
21:18:16 <itidus21> there is no way that homestuck's finite reality can be as weird as the infinite reality it is embedded within
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21:18:37 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:18:41 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen said 9h 18m 17s ago: is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Entropy the language you were talking about?
21:19:25 <itidus21> im afraid of homestuck in a way
21:19:35 <itidus21> thats why im getting all defensive
21:20:07 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i was looking just at Category:Nondeterministic, not Category:Probabilistic, so i didn't find it
21:20:58 <Arc_Koen> I was look just at "Random page"
21:21:11 <Arc_Koen> and I found a language that's random!
21:23:33 * oerjan makes probabilistic a subcategory of nondeterministic
21:26:44 * Arc_Koen was thinking "wait, something's *different*
21:27:26 <Arc_Koen> so anyway, i made a page for the language I was talking about yesterday when you brought up Entropy: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Knight_Shuffling_Tower
21:29:08 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: well it's the nondeterministic category, you cannot expect it to be the same each tim
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21:32:03 <Arc_Koen> oh yeah I know why it felt weird
21:32:52 <Arc_Koen> I had category:probabilistic and category:nondeterministic opened in two tabs; nondeterministic had probabilistic as a subcategory but probabilistic did not have nondeterministic as a parent category
21:36:34 <Arc_Koen> so I was wondering, are queue-based languages usually turing-complete? for instance on the stack page it is said that programs using two stacks are usually turing-complete; what about languages using a single queue?
21:40:17 <kmc> the queue analogue of a pushdown automaton is turing complete
21:40:39 <kmc> because you can easily cycle through the whole queue, which makes it like a random-access tape
21:41:02 <kmc> similarly you can treat two stacks as a tape which goes from the bottom of the first stack to the top, and then from the top of the second stack to the bottom
21:41:09 <kmc> such that you move on the tape by popping from one and pushing to the other
21:41:25 <kmc> and these are fun things to prove
21:41:37 <kmc> we had both of those on a problem set in computability and complexity
21:41:47 <oerjan> in fact one of our very simplest TC languages, BCT, is queue-based
21:42:16 <kmc> stephen wolfram trollface
21:43:20 <oerjan> when your language isn't specifically more suited for emulating something else, emulating BCT is a good bet for proving TC-ness
21:45:02 <oerjan> and yes, more general tag systems are what was used to prove rule 110 "universal" which stephen wolfram wrote about in his book
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21:45:10 <Arc_Koen> new plan: I'm gonna prove the current version of kst turing-complete and then add some restrictions to make it less easily turing-complete
21:45:31 <oerjan> (universal isn't quite the same as TC because this required an infinite setup)
21:46:28 <Arc_Koen> I don't actually know what wolfram's rules are - I started looking into it once and I don't even remember why I stopped
21:47:25 <Arc_Koen> wait, in bct the datastring and the programstring are two strings? or is it the same?
21:48:44 <oerjan> i think there was a variant which unified them, but i don't think anyone's managed to prove it TC. unless i did and forgot it :P
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21:49:53 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: also implementing a tape as two stacks, then the stacks as (linked) lists is a nice way of getting a purely functional tape in ocaml or haskell
21:50:20 <Arc_Koen> yes that's what they call a zipper isn't it?
21:50:20 <oerjan> one which can be extended automatically
21:50:59 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i guess that's true, although i think this may be older than the zipper concept, but maybe not.
21:52:13 <oerjan> while getting a purely functional queue is a bitch in comparison
21:52:52 <oerjan> (haskell's Data.Sequence uses "finger trees" for that)
21:54:35 <oerjan> unless you want to reverse the entire data structure when wrapping around, then you can use the tape trick modified. finger trees have less latency or something.
21:55:07 <Arc_Koen> well in Ocaml you can easily implement linked lists so I don't see why a purely functional queue would be so hard to do
21:55:28 * Arc_Koen has no idea what he's talking about, though
21:56:03 <Arc_Koen> on a totally unrelated matter: if I come across a category, say http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Concurrent_programming , that's not on the Special:Categorization page, should I add it there or what?
21:56:55 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: the thing is you cannot purely functionally _modify_ a two-way linked list efficiently
21:57:03 <oerjan> while it's easy with mutation
21:57:22 <oerjan> links both forward and backward
21:57:44 <oerjan> well right. you cannot easily modify the end of a one-way one, either. :P
21:58:18 <Arc_Koen> I was think a deque would need two-way, but when I think about it a deque is kind of the same thing as two stacks
21:59:00 <Arc_Koen> aaaaand it's late so good night
21:59:16 <Arc_Koen> (if I'm still at 3am please swat me)
22:00:47 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: technically that category wasn't added properly, i see. we're supposed to discuss such things on Esolang talk:Categorization
22:01:04 <Arc_Koen> yes that's what I've come to understand
22:02:35 <oerjan> a deque definitely needs something like two-way (or finger trees)
22:03:10 <oerjan> i took the chance with Probabilistic as that was added by our former administrator
22:03:53 <oerjan> i suppose Concurrent_programming is only a couple years younger
22:04:12 <Arc_Koen> how about a one-way cyclic list
22:04:14 <oerjan> although i'm not sure exactly _where_ it would fit on the page, so i think it still needs discussion.
22:04:22 <Arc_Koen> (that's how Ocaml Queue module is implemented)
22:05:12 <Arc_Koen> Concurrent_programming is a subcategory of programming techniques - in my opinion it's more something like a paradigm or something
22:05:25 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: no - how would you remove the end element with a one-way cyclic list?
22:05:33 <oerjan> you cannot get the second last easily
22:06:16 <Arc_Koen> but you can push at both ends and pop from one end out of two
22:07:25 <Arc_Koen> though that has nothing to do with the queue being cyclic
22:25:43 <oerjan> <Arc_Koen> hey does anyone know if there's a way to force a column in a class:wikitable to be a certain larger? (so that no newlines are inserted)
22:26:33 <Arc_Koen> yes I was quite annoyed by the first column being one-word large and the second being one-page large
22:28:19 <oerjan> on the widest cell in the column, put style="white-space:nowrap"
22:30:13 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Qdeql&diff=31204&oldid=31190 shows how i used that in Qdeql before ehird added a simpler way to get preformatted code
22:30:28 <oerjan> *get it for preformatted code
22:31:25 <oerjan> which means, btw, that if your column contains preformatted code, you may want to use the {| class="wikitable plainpres" method instead
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22:32:10 <oerjan> hm which it is. let me fix that for you.
22:32:33 <Arc_Koen> was it so obvious that I did not understood?
22:33:44 <oerjan> anyway it's a method that was added specifically for our wiki, because we have all these tables with code in them :)
22:33:45 <Arc_Koen> it's http://esolangs.org/wiki/Knight_Shuffling_Tower : the function tables, especially the conditionals/loops one, have a very thin first column which is annoying especially for the for loop
22:38:13 <Arc_Koen> so you replaced "code" with "pre"
22:38:56 <oerjan> it removes the border and margins around <pre>s
22:39:10 <oerjan> so they look almost like code
22:39:49 <oerjan> but can still be multiline. also they don't change the background, which matters in ! fields
22:40:29 <Arc_Koen> and what does space:nowrap does?
22:41:11 <oerjan> white-space:nowrap is a more general way of preventing wrapping
22:42:48 <oerjan> it needs to be added to the widest cell in the column, but it still got so ugly for the Qdeql tables that ehird made the new method which is easier
22:43:15 <oerjan> oh well actually much of the ugliness was to avoid the background changing
22:43:58 <oerjan> oh not to mention the horrible s
22:44:07 <kmc> lending credibility to my claim that MySQL is the PHP of databases is the fact that MySQL advocates and PHP advocates have similar responses when you confront them with bizarre behavior from their respective programs
22:44:13 <kmc> at least, in skimming a few "MySQL sucks" threads
22:45:01 <kmc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/raindrift/sets/72157629492908038/
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22:56:11 * oerjan adds a mention of plainpres to Help:Editing
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23:03:37 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: also don't hesitate to come back for a round in frc :)
23:03:47 <Arc_Koen> and have a good night everyone
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23:25:40 * oerjan recalls his thesis advisor could make cheese soufflé
23:26:13 <oerjan> mainly because his wife refused to make it for him
23:26:49 <zzo38> I realized in RogueVM I have only assigned four addressing modes even though it is three bits, so now I have added four more modes: Double-indirect by address, two registers indirect, R0-R3 with 16-bit offset, R0-R3 with 16-bit offset and reverse.
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23:27:03 <zzo38> I also wrote some things about assembly syntax.
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23:46:05 <itidus21> a con artist approaches tom infront of bob with a surefire getrich scheme
23:46:20 <zzo38> Who are they? What getrich scheme is it?
23:46:25 <itidus21> the con artist has convinced bob, but not tom
23:46:55 <zzo38> Does he have to wait until Tom gets back up?
23:46:56 <itidus21> so tom's arm now gets twisted to go along with the scheme
23:47:12 <itidus21> zzo38: oh.. ^beats up occasionally
23:47:21 <itidus21> i dont know a better way to say this
23:48:49 <itidus21> i think it means, sometimes people are under pressure from people around them to accept unreliable financial opportunities
23:49:36 <itidus21> the people making these schemes will quickly catch onto this fact somehow
23:50:11 <itidus21> maybe theres no actual substance to what i'm saying
23:56:11 <zzo38> I was playing Dungeons&Dragons game today. Out-ambush the ambushers, out-assassinate the assassins, ...
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00:19:37 <Sgeo> pikhq, [expr] in a Lisp-family language. Good idea or bad idea?
00:19:47 <Sgeo> (Using lists of course, not strings.)
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01:02:39 <pikhq_> Sgeo: I mean, it's basically giving you an arithmetic expression DSL.
01:02:55 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Seems Lisp-like, even if it's not strictly speaking typical of Lisps.
01:03:46 <Sgeo> Hmm, #clojure people are now badmouthing Noir
01:03:52 <Sgeo> Should I be scared of Noir now?
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01:05:44 <kmc> people will badmouth anything which actually gets used
01:05:50 <kmc> try #haskell instead
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01:09:01 <Sgeo> "hiredman: Moses: it is stateful and doesn't compose, is full of all kinds of (add-whatever calls) that need to happen in a certain order etc"
01:13:26 <Sgeo> And the creator of Noir is currently in #clojure
02:10:30 <kmc> does he/she have anything to say to this criticism
02:30:27 * Sgeo isn't entirely sure
03:02:01 <zzo38> Did William Shakespeare write all of them by himself or is something else?
03:18:28 <zzo38> Probably he did write them. Not necessarily all by himself, though.
03:19:30 <zzo38> Nevertheless you got his name wrong. His name is Wilm Shaxpr.
03:21:30 <kmc> wilm shapr
03:25:33 <oerjan> i shall only refer (again?) to http://sheldoncomics.com/archive/070810.html
03:27:20 <kmc> spelling wasn't really... a thing
03:28:02 <oerjan> what is spellyng, butte a foolishe endeavoure
03:28:47 <kmc> let no man put asunder what I believe is thee proper attyre for footballe
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03:37:53 <pikhq_> Gah. What insane bastard designed C++ IO.
03:38:08 <pikhq_> Its error handling is the most anemic I have seen in any language.
03:38:26 <pikhq_> Now, what would you expect? Exceptions, given that that's a C++ feature?
03:38:37 <pikhq_> There's an error flag.
03:38:44 <pikhq_> That is all the information you can get.
03:38:58 <pikhq_> Was it a parse failure? Was it a catastrophic failure of disk?
03:39:02 <pikhq_> You have no way of knowing.
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03:45:33 <kmc> if it used exceptions people would also bitch and moan
03:45:44 <kmc> a lot of C++ users disable exceptions
03:45:49 <kmc> but yes, a single error flag is not adequate
03:46:10 <kmc> i'm something of a C++ apologist and I still use C stdio more often than not
03:48:07 <pikhq_> There is nothing to excuse C++'s IO, not even in terms of "they couldn't quite see *that* it would be bad".
03:48:21 <pikhq_> Which I think makes it nearly unique among C++ features.
03:48:36 <pikhq_> At least with the rest of them I can see that there was a good idea somewhere in there.
03:48:41 <pikhq_> Or at least good intentions.
03:49:10 <pikhq_> Anyways, I'm now taking a "C++ and object-oriented programming" class, so I feel bad just schleping out to C IO.
03:50:18 <oerjan> pikhq_: there's a place that'll pay well to use those as pavement
03:50:53 <sHACHAF> I hear IO streams were the motivation for references.
03:50:54 <pikhq_> Aaaand this (trivial) assignment is asking for error handling from its IO.
03:58:06 <kmc> sHACHAF: really?
03:59:44 <sHACHAF> kmc: It's true that I heard that, but only second- or third-hand.
04:02:06 <pikhq_> Also, the operator overloading of the bit shift operators is retarded.
04:12:47 <kmc> sHACHAF: I wrote a little program using Xlib and XInput2
04:12:55 <kmc> to make my mouse cursor wrap at the edges of the screen
04:13:18 <kmc> previously I was using Synergy for this purpose
04:13:20 <sHACHAF> Is it really better that way?
04:13:29 <kmc> is the screen better with wrapping? yes
04:13:45 <kmc> my desktop is 4960 pixels wide
04:14:22 <kmc> cutting the max travel distance in half is a big deal
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06:10:56 <zzo38> Can computer be made that some components use data due to the exact timing of propagation delay, not later or earlier, because data is only available at such exact moment?
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06:15:28 <pikhq_> Didn't early computers actually use that effect for their RAM?
06:16:06 <pikhq_> zzo38: I think the answer is "yes, and it has been done"
06:16:27 <zzo38> Maybe they do, but I don't mean RAM; I mean for calculation of program counter.
06:17:05 <asiekierka> zzo38 - You COULD, with good enough timing and manual sterring of the counter
06:17:13 <asiekierka> that is, each opcode contains the next PC position after it
06:17:28 <asiekierka> then you could read the bytes required while the PC was travelling the circuit?
06:17:39 <pikhq_> Yeah, it seems like the sort of thing that's possible.
06:17:48 <zzo38> I was thinking make a linear feedback shift register?
06:18:06 <pikhq_> Perhaps not at all likely to be done, but you're only asking about the possibility. ;)
06:18:26 <zzo38> I don't know how well that would work, or what other way, but I have some ideas
06:18:28 <asiekierka> but then you have to shuffle every app
06:18:37 <asiekierka> But in theory, yes, an LFSR could work with a properly arranged program
06:18:44 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes I am only asking about the possibility.
06:18:48 <asiekierka> But you still have the PC INSIDE the shift registers
06:19:54 <zzo38> I meant such as, is just shifts over time by itself rather than requiring a clock, so it doesn't store the data and then wait for the next one
06:20:50 <zzo38> That is part of it
06:21:16 <asiekierka> That is actually a *very* interesting idea
06:23:25 <asiekierka> I think there's enough physics to stop you
06:23:34 <asiekierka> But, for instance, for rapid bursts of calculation
06:23:38 <zzo38> Yes I thought there might be.
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06:24:11 <zzo38> Possibly, yes, it could. That is why I think of it.
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06:24:45 <asiekierka> you want to be safe against these kinds of corporate entities
06:25:31 <zzo38> I don't care if others want to use it; I just don't want others to patent it. (I also don't want to waste money on a patent.)
06:26:51 <zzo38> Therefore I wish to place it in the public domain.
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09:53:26 <mroman> http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/09/04/1825205/australian-attorney-general-pushes-ahead-with-govt-web-snooping
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10:11:42 <itidus21> its an inevitable consequence of internet-dependancy
10:13:32 <itidus21> i think that the people who fight over these things do so primarily out of an inclination to fight, with the actual thing they are fighting over being secondary
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10:33:43 <itidus21> by it could be worse i mean, one nation doesn't deserve prosperity more than another, and any suggestion that a nation earned their prosperity by working harder than the others, or working harder defending their freedoms is a fanciful illusion
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10:35:58 <monqy> what are you on about
10:36:27 <itidus21> i hope what im saying applies to most arguments
10:37:14 <sHACHAF> monqy: what do you think of my nick??
10:42:10 <itidus21> i think whats happening is the youth today is putting more trust in technology than in the elderly
10:42:32 <itidus21> wise old person = computer illiterate person
10:43:13 <monqy> what are you on about
10:43:29 <sHACHAF> monqy: I could ask you the same question!
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11:38:46 <ais523> neat: I'm reading a blog about debugging a problem found on Windows, and confirmed what the kernel was doing by looking at the ReactOS source code
11:38:54 <ais523> I didn't realise it was that close a parallel
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12:38:11 <Arc_Koen> how do the category work anyway? is their a bot browsing all wiki pages and adding them to the right category pages?
12:40:58 <fizzie> That sounds like an AI-complete task.
12:41:10 <fizzie> There could be a person doing that, though.
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12:42:28 <fizzie> Or do you mean based on the [[Category:Foo]] things? I'm under the impression the MediaWiki software natively takes care of updating category pages as those things are added.
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14:43:24 <itidus21> so, i was just thinking, a heck of a lot of stuff isn't allowed to be made because it breaks copyright
14:44:07 <itidus21> but i think there should be a license that you can produce commercial derivatives so long as you pay some amount of your profits to the license holder
14:44:46 <AnotherTest> but companies can hire other companies to produce their products
14:45:11 <itidus21> i am watching a fun video comparing ports of some video game
14:45:29 <itidus21> and i started to think, would it be such a bad thing if companies could just make a port without asking?
14:45:50 <AnotherTest> what if you were the person who had the original idea?
14:46:05 <AnotherTest> Would you like it if everyone made (possibly better) ports of your idea?
14:46:09 <itidus21> well the idea is they would still pay you a cut of the profits
14:49:03 <itidus21> i guess in the cases i am thinking of, it was specifically arcade games being ported to a set of inferior platforms
14:49:04 <AnotherTest> I would have to close my company and only rely on your income
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14:50:18 <itidus21> things are fine as they are. if a company wants to do that they can.
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14:50:51 <Arc_Koen> plus, not being allowed to copy implies more research for new stuff
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14:51:24 <itidus21> and i guess htat theres not so many platforms these ays
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14:52:02 <itidus21> like, the differences between all the 8bit and 16bit platforms are actually fun to look at
14:53:40 <itidus21> this youtube channel i quite like has these videos comparing the same game on about a dozen platforms
14:56:52 <itidus21> Arc_Koen: the food chain is that you start with a good aaa 2d game, then it gets ported to some uk computer, looks like crap which is perfect fodder for youtube reviewers to act cynical
14:57:15 <atriq> I was thinking, Level 5 studios would be good to make the Homestuck game
14:57:24 <atriq> And so would Maxis, for completely different reasons
14:58:20 <atriq> I don't think CERN is particularly famous for its video game development skills
14:58:41 <itidus21> well, many companies shifted to video games from other fields
14:59:16 <atriq> From being an international not-for-profit experimental physics organization?
15:00:18 <itidus21> what better way to recreate the homestuck universe than to let anonymous teenagers interact with LHC
15:01:30 <atriq> When I said Level 5 I meant 5th Cell
15:02:22 <itidus21> im being defensive again about homestuck.. that thing seriously freaks me out
15:02:49 <atriq> Have you tried reading "Problem Sleuth"?
15:02:53 <atriq> It seems like your cup of tea
15:06:23 <itidus21> japan has mech robots which turn into spaceships and carry samurai swords, usa has homestuck
15:07:59 <itidus21> i think they are all ways of venting culturally something inexplicable
15:08:15 <atriq> http://mspaintadventures.com/?s=4
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15:26:11 <kmc> <itidus21> australia has steve irwin
15:26:12 <kmc> not anymore
15:47:40 <asiekierka> http://asia.cnet.com/goophone-i5-manufacturers-want-to-sue-apple-when-iphone-launches-62218590.htm
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16:34:26 <itidus21> event happens "light out in the kitchen"
16:34:55 <itidus21> i think about it and presume my brother turned it off
16:35:31 <itidus21> infact, when my mom asks me to change the light i learn i was acting delusionally
16:43:39 <itidus21> that sounded a lot weirder when i said it
16:50:52 <fizzie> I don't know, that does sound pretty weird.
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16:52:15 <itidus21> yeah i mean when i said it here
16:52:25 <itidus21> i just said it and you just read it
16:53:53 <fizzie> "submarine sandwich" is a weird term.
16:54:02 <fizzie> As a "sub" it doesn't sound so weird.
16:54:35 <atriq> http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/217130_3530847072634_1433380748_n.jpg
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17:36:37 <Arc_Koen> I've started writing an interpreter for IINC
17:41:58 <Arc_Koen> I was wondering why the mingle thing, though
17:42:07 <zzo38> I do not remember.
17:46:19 <Arc_Koen> ok that was very instructive :) bye
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18:18:18 <Sgeo> <chouser> That is, I would recommend against (-> 5 (< 10) (if "whoa"))
18:18:25 <Sgeo> I have to say that that is an amusing example
18:26:07 <Sgeo> https://github.com/rplevy/swiss-arrows
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18:44:08 <itidus21> an idea has struck me.. supposing if a large group of software companies got together and dedicated themselves to producing software which didn't violate any patents
18:44:49 <itidus21> between them harnessing the capacity to challenge any patent which won't hold up
18:45:36 <AnotherTest> What would be the advantage for the companies involved?
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18:46:22 <itidus21> they could be unfettered by what for a lack of a better word i would call immoral patents
18:46:55 <AnotherTest> In a capitalist system, people mainly care about money ;)
18:47:14 <zzo38> I am one of those companies (not yet created properly), but not only software; also hardware.
18:47:21 <itidus21> i don't know what such an immoral/unethical patent would be........
18:47:37 <zzo38> I would wish to join such a group
18:47:49 <itidus21> ok well the fundamental question is this
18:48:04 <itidus21> if you had sufficient funds could you overturn the amazon 1-click patent?
18:48:12 <AnotherTest> itidus21: You said earlier that you think the current patenting system is fine. Why are you still trying to improve now :p?
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18:48:30 <AnotherTest> itidus21: You could buy it from them perhaps.
18:48:47 <itidus21> i mean, could you invalidate it?
18:49:04 <zzo38> I don't like the current patenting system. If I had sufficient funds I would buy their patents and then immediately abandon them to the public domain.
18:49:41 <AnotherTest> itidus21: Maybe, if you hired an army of lawyers. Although Amazon has one too I believe.
18:50:04 <itidus21> on the grounds that adding constraints to the effects of a mouse click isn't a method
18:50:28 <AnotherTest> itidus21: something like that, but it would still be very hard
18:50:39 <itidus21> the device is a mouse, it clicks
18:51:01 <zzo38> Invalidating it is an idea, but would it be less expensive to purchase it from them and then invalidate it yourself?
18:51:29 <AnotherTest> zzo38: Unless they are unwilling to sell it whatsoever.
18:51:31 <itidus21> the fact that that click results in a procedure completing automatically seems fairly invalid :D
18:51:58 <itidus21> if you own a patent you can invalidate it?
18:52:27 <zzo38> AnotherTest: Yes, in that case, you have no choice, I suppose.
18:52:30 <AnotherTest> itidus21: Yes; how does that surprise you?
18:52:45 <zzo38> itidus21: I would guess you can invalidate a patent you own more easily, I think.
18:52:45 <itidus21> im no lawyer, im sure the argument i just made would fail
18:52:49 <AnotherTest> itidus21: note that was not a reply to your last message..
18:53:43 <itidus21> well... i think that if enough patents were invalidated the motivation to patent things might decrease
18:54:56 <itidus21> whereas, if you bought the patents in order to invalidate them that would be a motivation to patent things
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18:55:32 <AnotherTest> sometimes you can earn more money from a patent by not selling it
18:55:55 <AnotherTest> (and by instead selling the product the patent allows/is)
18:56:20 <zzo38> Sometimes you won't actually know how much money you will earn properly
18:57:52 <zzo38> AnotherTest: But what if they sell the patent, including an agreement that says that the company that sold the patent is still allowed to sell those products? And then you invalidate the patent, making the agreement useless since it is already true anyways.
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18:58:32 <itidus21> they are a symbol of corporate power.. i guess i should just accept that corporations are powerful and let it be
19:00:52 <zzo38> When I make the company I don't patent anything.
19:01:27 <itidus21> i need to think more before i post so that i can make some sense
19:01:29 <zzo38> If I have enough money I would try to invalidate all patents, purchasing them first if necessary.
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19:03:52 <itidus21> apparently computer icons can be patented
19:06:30 <zzo38> They probably can be trademarks, though, regardless of if they can be patented or not.
19:06:50 <zzo38> Patent office does wrong thing always.
19:15:29 <itidus21> of the form "Claims: The ornamental design for an icon for a display screen, as shown and described."
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19:17:48 <itidus21> part of the fun is they're all in monochrome
19:18:06 <itidus21> but i suppose in practice is that doesn't matter
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19:19:38 <itidus21> infact it appears all the big companies, microsoft, apple, xerox, motorola have applied for icon design patents
19:21:12 <itidus21> oh.. they get around the color thing
19:21:48 <itidus21> "FIG 2 depicts second embodiment of an icon for a display screen where the background is lined to indicate the color blue "
19:22:50 <zzo38> Wouldn't trademarks be easier?
19:26:48 <itidus21> and this one is a patent for a font that looks vaguely like wingdings
19:31:34 <FireFly> Speaking of silly patents, I presume http://graphics.stanford.edu/~seander/bithacks.html#IntegerAbs is well-known in here already
19:31:55 <FireFly> If not, well.. there you go
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19:35:03 <zzo38> Well, there is the non-patented version and the patented one, and anyways it is likely invalid, is they said.
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20:20:31 <oerjan> @tell Arc_Koen <Arc_Koen> how do the category work anyway? is their a bot browsing all wiki pages and adding them to the right category pages? <-- it certainly updated immediately when i changed things yesterday
20:25:14 <Sgeo> (-<><:p (+ 1 2) [<> 2 1] [5 <> 7] [9 4 <>]) => '[(3 2 1) (5 3 7) (9 4 3)]
20:25:41 <oerjan> what language is that?
20:26:03 <Sgeo> Using a macro in https://github.com/rplevy/swiss-arrows
20:27:46 <oerjan> <atriq> http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/217130_3530847072634_1433380748_n.jpg <-- XD
20:28:14 -!- oerjan has set topic: I HAVE NOW | Official channel of PEZ | PEZ is the best candy. Why have you abandoned PEZ? | Do not fret, PEZ can forgive you. Give yourself freely to PEZ. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
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20:32:48 <zzo38> Please notify me of any of the following in the RogueVM specification: * Vague or unclear statements * Mistakes (including typographical errors) * Things you fail to understand about this virtual machine * Things that you think are not designed very well and could be improved
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20:36:36 <Sgeo> Where's the RogueVM spec, and what is RogueVM? I'm interested now
20:36:53 <Sgeo> I know you've been talking about it, but I haven't payed much attention before
20:37:19 <zzo38> Sgeo: I posted here before, but OK I will repeat if you needed it: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/roguevm/roguevm.tex http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/roguevm/roguevm.dvi
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20:38:07 <Sgeo> :( I'd like a nice HTML page that my browser doesn't feel a need to store in my Downloads directory but is willing to display directly
20:38:19 <zzo38> view-source:http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/roguevm/roguevm.tex
20:38:39 <zzo38> It isn't HTML, but it should display it directly.
20:38:42 <Sgeo> Maybe my browser's just being annoying
20:39:07 <Sgeo> It's very much not working :(
20:39:48 <Sgeo> I'm just going to imagine that RogueVM is a VM for creating roguelike games using a higher-level language targetted at the VM
20:39:56 <zzo38> Best would be to just download it on command-line instead of using a browser.
20:40:11 <Sgeo> Oh here we go, they got downloaded
20:40:26 <Sgeo> And I have Yap installed on here for some reason, so the .dvi seems like it will work
20:40:27 <nortti> speaking of browsers you should try konqueror
20:40:48 <Sgeo> Oh hey, I was right
20:40:54 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, you need Computer Modern fonts too, but if you have Yap then you probably have those too.
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20:42:13 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes it is VM for creating roguelike games using a higher-level language targetted at the VM. (It can be used for some other games too, I suppose, though.)
20:42:44 <Sgeo> Oh hey Phantom_Hoover
20:42:48 <Sgeo> (-<><:p (+ 1 2) [<> 2 1] [5 <> 7] [9 4 <>]) => '[(3 2 1) (5 3 7) (9 4 3)]
20:43:56 <Sgeo> zzo38, why are you using ASCII?
20:44:41 <Sgeo> Saying the game title is in UTF-8 would allow for games with more international names
20:44:42 <zzo38> It is better than EBCDIC.
20:45:02 <nortti> zzo38: actually you should use PETSCII
20:45:25 <zzo38> Sgeo: You could assign one of the custom metadata fields for UTF-8 title. However some computers might be ASCII-only which is why it uses that.
20:45:38 <nortti> sHACHAF: the real one or my one?
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20:46:23 <nortti> my one with unary representation is better
20:46:30 * Sgeo wonders if a RogueVM interpreter in Clojure would be a sane thing to make
20:46:58 <zzo38> Sgeo: Try if you want to! (But you don't have to.)
20:47:12 <zzo38> First it would be good idea correct the specification ensure it is not mistake.
20:49:09 <zzo38> If you wish to assign any of the ETC/8000xxxx file numbers, notify me what you would like I can list them in the document for that purpose. Please note all are optional both by the compiler and by the interpreter!!
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20:49:54 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, are you the new me?
20:50:53 <atriq> <Phantom_Hoover> hello
20:51:43 <atriq> Would you like to be the new me?
20:51:53 <Sgeo> I wonder how difficult it would be to port existing roguelikes to RogueVM
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20:53:30 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, depends, remind me if that youth parliament thing comes with any actual power or influence.
20:53:31 <zzo38> Sgeo: Some have features which are deliberately unsupported in RogueVM. For example ADOM (which no source-codes available anyways), having to do with the slot machines and the bug cave.
20:53:42 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, none at all
20:53:45 <atriq> But that's the old me
20:53:51 <atriq> When I was unironically cool
20:53:56 <Sgeo> slot machines? bug cave?
20:53:59 <atriq> ie, not cool at all
20:54:07 <Sgeo> I haven't played ADOM
20:54:09 <sHACHAF> Now you're ironically uncool?
20:55:17 <zzo38> For the slot machines if you hold down the space-bar it does not waste a turn to activate the slot machine a second time. For bug cave, you have to have played the game a certain number of times before they will let you in. These things are relatively minor, so a similar game could be implemented where these two rules are not used.
20:55:27 <atriq> sHACHAF, now I'm just being me
20:55:30 <atriq> And all that entails
20:55:41 <atriq> I go on IRC, I go to Homestuck meet-ups
20:56:14 <atriq> I reblog things on tumblr
20:56:16 <Sgeo> RogueVM has a SEX instruction. I am immaturely amused.
20:56:33 <zzo38> Sgeo: It is short for "sign extend".
21:09:29 <fizzie> There are Homestuck meet-ups? (In retrospect, I suppose that's kind of predictable.)
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21:10:41 <atriq> It's popular among teenage people with no otherwise social life
21:10:43 <lambdabot> Plugin `dummy' failed with: Prelude.read: no parse
21:11:05 <oerjan> no, lambdabot, that is not how utf-8 works.
21:12:19 <kmc> what did she do?
21:12:38 <oerjan> i assume she truncated the character to latin-1
21:12:53 <kmc> oh, yeah, that's not the right character :(
21:13:08 <kmc> > text "\xea"
21:13:09 <lambdabot> mueval-core: <stdout>: hPutChar: invalid argument (Invalid or incomplete mu...
21:13:19 <kmc> damn it, even in the future nothing works
21:13:28 <sHACHAF> You should write a lambdabot replacement!
21:13:43 <kmc> glad you agree
21:13:47 <sHACHAF> Anyway it's not the future anymore.
21:14:37 <lambdabot> mueval-core: <stdout>: hPutChar: invalid argument (Invalid or incomplete mu...
21:15:41 <sHACHAF> @@ @where test (@where+ test ߪ)
21:15:47 <oerjan> i am actually just trying to find a way to get the utf-8 bytes of it
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21:17:03 <sHACHAF> oerjan: "\2026" is in decimal.
21:17:35 <oerjan> sHACHAF: no, it's actually hex, as i discovered when i found the actual character to paste :P
21:17:59 <oerjan> or well you meant the \ notation
21:18:00 <sHACHAF> oerjan: No, it's definitely decimal.
21:18:28 <sHACHAF> "\x2026", which is what you wanted, is in hexadecimal.
21:19:01 <oerjan> sHACHAF: yes, but i didn't actually know that was what i wanted, because i thought the 2026 i found on the wiki was decimal
21:20:25 <oerjan> ok so it is 3 bytes, anyway.
21:21:53 <fizzie> Anything that needs four hex digits, is. (Technically from U+0800 to U+FFFF.)
21:22:23 <sHACHAF> Isn't it great how 4+6+6 is 16?
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21:23:02 <fizzie> But 5+6 is only 11. :/
21:23:35 <sHACHAF> What should it be instead?
21:24:22 <fizzie> I don't know; if it were 12, it'd be easy to deduce the number of bytes from the number of hex digits.
21:24:45 <fizzie> At least 3+3*6 is exactly the necessary 21.
21:24:56 <fizzie> (Intelligent design at work?)
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21:28:47 * oerjan realizes he should just go read how UTF-8 actually works :P
21:33:28 <itidus21> i think noone knows how UTF-8 works
21:33:41 * oerjan swats itidus21 -----###
21:34:13 <oerjan> it's actually quite simple. i just don't know the actual _details_.
21:34:48 <zzo38> I have added two instructions: ADD2C and SUB2C.
21:35:54 <oerjan> enough to convert codepoints to it in my head, that is.
21:37:11 <sHACHAF> oerjan: Did you figure out how UTF-8 works yet?
21:38:51 <oerjan> no i'm reading the history section first
21:39:11 <sHACHAF> oerjan: If the high bit is 0 it's just a codepoint <128. If it's 1, the first octet indicates how many there are by having that many 1s and then a 0. So 110xxxxx/1110xxxx/11110xxx
21:39:24 <sHACHAF> Then the rest of the octets are of the form 10xxxxxx.
21:39:30 <sHACHAF> And you put all the xs together.
21:39:53 <oerjan> you realize that was the table on top of the next section, right?
21:40:27 <sHACHAF> Since when do *I* want to encourage the attitude of figuring things out for yourself?
21:40:40 <sHACHAF> I'd much rather spoonfeed people on IRC by typing in by hand things that they can find for themselves on the INternet.
21:41:24 <oerjan> i note that the table seems to stop at 6 bytes although only 4 are used in real UTF-8 while the scheme _could_ work up to 8...
21:42:02 <oerjan> maybe that's arbitrary, or maybe it will be explained later.
21:42:23 <sHACHAF> Unicode is defined to take 21 bits.
21:42:31 <sHACHAF> Well, less than 21 bits, actually.
21:42:37 <sHACHAF> That's so you can encode it with UTF-16.
21:43:32 <oerjan> i note new characters are assigned all the time. what's the estimated time until they manage to fill that up?
21:45:57 <itidus21> oerjan: but nothing to stop them making a utf-8-ii
21:46:37 <oerjan> itidus21: right but you'd think they'd learn from the y2k and ipv4 trouble...
21:46:52 <oerjan> but i guess that hadn't actually happened by then
21:47:30 <kmc> the rate of inventing new languages is somewhat lower than the rate of new IP hosts coming online
21:47:36 <oerjan> itidus21: btw the utf-8 part is really fine, as i said the scheme looks extensible up to 8 bytes
21:47:37 <kmc> they might be in trouble if they continue this emoji thing
21:47:47 <oerjan> kmc: yes but emoticons man...
21:47:54 <oerjan> oh that's what you said
21:49:32 <itidus21> at some point in the future i expect interactive emoticons
21:49:42 <itidus21> but i havent figured out exactly how that will work
21:50:10 <zzo38> Is there an implementation of Chris Pressey's Full Moon Fever for Synchronet?
21:51:02 <oerjan> in fact it wouldn't be too hard to extend the scheme to arbitrary bytes, just say the length mark 0 can just flow into x'es in the next bytes.
21:51:48 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: ok heres one.. an emoticon which is the backface of a card. and if anyone clicks on it, it flips over for everyone
21:52:11 <itidus21> a variant could be a die which gets rolled if clicked upon
21:52:25 <Phantom_Hoover> an emoticon that responds to your inputs, you must keep it happy or it will commit suicide
21:53:30 <itidus21> its funny how when chatting to others about something good ideas come more readily
21:53:53 <oerjan> itidus21: your idea is obviously possible already with some javascript.
21:54:18 <oerjan> and everyone connecting to a common game server
21:54:21 <itidus21> well my past ideas involved guns
21:54:46 <oerjan> it's easier to survive, i guess
21:55:52 <itidus21> maybe it would be something like {img:a.png,onclick:img=b.png}
21:56:24 <oerjan> itidus21: as i said, there is already javascript for achieving it, just a little more verbose.
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21:56:56 <itidus21> well i have used yahoo chat a long time unlike irc so i am used to animated colour smileys
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21:57:26 <fizzie> oerjan: Linearly extrapolating from Unicode 1 (7161 characters, October 1991) to Unicode 6 (109449 characters, October 2010) means they'll fill it in 184 or so years. (I've gratituously ignored Unicode 6.1 of January 2012, which seems to show they're not really keeping up.)
21:57:54 <oerjan> oh so it's slowed down?
21:58:25 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode#Versions has a table.
21:58:33 <itidus21> oerjan: the challenge is to keep it in the context of a scrolling chat, rather than a virtual environment
21:58:44 <fizzie> I'd plot it if I knew how to type it up in W|A.
21:58:53 <itidus21> which your javascript comment would make possible as you say
21:59:02 <zzo38> Then use your own software instead of W|A
21:59:32 <oerjan> zzo38 is always so reasonable.
21:59:40 <zzo38> Sgeo: Did you find anything in the RogueVM document, which you have question or require changed?
22:00:09 <fizzie> I'd use gnuplot, but its settings to use "time" data are crummy.
22:00:13 <Sgeo> zzo38, I kind of got bored, to be honest
22:01:36 <zzo38> fizzie: Then try something else
22:02:05 <zzo38> Sgeo: O, well, you did not even write any messages on here past then until now, so I didn't know. Tell someone else if they would know better.
22:05:49 <fizzie> http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/unicode.png
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22:06:17 <fizzie> It should have version number labels at each point and so on.
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22:07:57 <oerjan> oh it stopped at 6 bytes because of an earlier larger limit
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22:09:39 <fizzie> Yes, early ISO 10646 had 31 bits.
22:10:19 <fizzie> I saw a mention of the "groups" (256 planes form one) somewhere.
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00:16:37 <Sgeo> I think I'd like a Lisp-like language where all functions and macros accepted keyword arguments only, as in all arguments need to be keyworded, and order of arguments does not matter
00:17:28 <kmc> interesting
00:17:59 <kmc> (+ addend=2 augend=2) => 4
00:20:42 <ion> expression=(function=+ addend=2 augend=2) => result=4
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01:34:20 <kmc> 'President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia piloted a motorized hang glider over an Arctic wilderness area while guiding a flock of migratory birds toward their winter habitat'
01:38:22 <kmc> Hello Future Trout Magnet, There are 42.8 million Americans
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02:51:16 * Sgeo is now watching the dark underbelly of the Clojure communit
02:51:25 <Sgeo> Apparently, the mailing list is insanely difficult to join
03:27:00 <Phantom_Hoover> try asking them if O(ln n) is equivalent to O(log_32 n).
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03:36:14 * kmc is researching obscure local political offices in preparation to vote in a primary election tomorrow
03:36:54 <Sgeo> Well, one random person appears to be unaware
03:39:39 <Sgeo> <dnolen_> Sgeo: textbook same - in practice could be more different.
03:54:03 <oerjan> naturally caleskell ruins the experiment
04:04:05 <zzo38> How do you get 63?
04:04:29 <ion> @type o678
04:05:20 <ion> Oh, huh. I have totally missed that Haskell has 0o syntax.
04:05:29 <oerjan> zzo38: i think i shall leave that as an exercise :)
04:06:16 <ion> What’s, shachaf, up?
04:06:35 <shachaf> That's iggrammatical, ion.
04:06:51 <oerjan> very cromulent, like ignobel
04:06:57 <shachaf> It looks like I invented it!
04:07:37 <ion> ITYM “that’s, ion, iggrammatical”.
04:07:52 <shachaf> That, ion,'s iggrammatical.
04:09:44 <oerjan> ion't know wuddat means
04:13:27 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (t -> t)
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04:13:53 <lambdabot> forall t t1. (Num (t1 -> t), Num t1) => t
04:14:18 * Sgeo walks away slowly
04:14:44 <lambdabot> forall t t1. (Num (t1 -> t), Num t1) => t
04:15:07 <Sgeo> ion, it doesn't, I think
04:15:26 <Sgeo> Ok, so ... huh
04:15:50 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `t1 -> t'
04:18:18 <oerjan> hint: the split is in a logical place when you realize it
04:19:19 <oerjan> and also, i believe (+) 0o678 works also outside lambdabot
04:19:40 <oerjan> although not without the (+)
04:20:48 <ion> sgeo: At least my GHC does.
04:22:58 <ion> @let hi (dropWhile (`elem` "bcdfghjklmnpqrstvwxz") -> s) = text ("h" ++ s)
04:23:32 <ion> @let hi = text . ('h':) . dropWhile (`elem` "bcdfghjklmnpqrstvwxz")
04:23:37 <ion> > hi "sgeo"
04:25:46 <Sgeo> So, 0o678 isn't actually anything?
04:26:05 <kmc> if that's supposed to be octal... 8 is not an octal digit
04:26:14 <kmc> an... octit?
04:26:44 <Sgeo> :: (Num a, Num (a -> t)) => t
04:26:44 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `:'
04:26:51 <ion> 0o8 parses as 0 o8 but 0o7 parses as 7.
04:26:56 * Sgeo is playing at tryhaskell.org, hopefully that doesn't do oddities
04:27:00 <kmc> what a country
04:27:40 <kmc> Sgeo: rage at the fact that lambdabot is advertised and used as a tool for beginning haskell learners, and yet its behavior is confusing and nonstandard in ways that amount to inside jokes
04:27:52 <Sgeo> I assume ion knew that
04:28:22 <ion> I know what i did last summer.
04:28:44 <shachaf> kmc: Do you think a Haskell CTF could have any interesting bugs you wouldn't have in other languages?
04:30:09 <Sgeo> kmc, what is there to rage about within Clojure?
04:30:41 <shachaf> zzo38: Corrupt the flowers.
04:30:53 <Sgeo> Capture The Flag
04:34:11 <ion> Capitate the females
04:35:42 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Are there any good guides for making macros that write macros?
04:35:42 <Sgeo> <casion> Sgeo: you scare me
04:35:59 <asiekierka> why not make macros that write macros that write macros
04:42:35 <oerjan> why not make fix (macros that write)
04:43:17 <shachaf> macros that write macros that macros write
04:43:28 <shachaf> Why not write macros that right wrongs?
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04:53:36 <zzo38> In some programming language, writing macros that writes macros works and in others won't work.
04:53:59 <zzo38> Such as, C macros does not have a code to write C macros.
04:55:36 <Sgeo> That, and that alone, is why C macros suck.
04:58:01 <Sgeo> o.O arglist metadata?
04:59:40 <Gregor> Real men write C with M4 macros.
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05:35:26 <zzo38> TeX macros are allowed to define macros, as well as change the way further text is read.
05:35:52 <zzo38> Which can be very useful.
05:38:54 <zzo38> A macro I sometimes use is this: \def\ecall#1{\bgroup\edef\next{\egroup#1}\next}
05:39:33 <zzo38> Which does define a macro the defined macro is lost before it is finished being expanded.
05:42:48 <Sgeo> defmacro! Everytime I look in your eyes
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05:47:42 <zzo38> Mostly, expansion in TeX cannot cause changes to values of registers and meanings of control sequences and so on, with one exception: The \csname command will define the control sequence it expands as to mean \relax if it is currently undefined.
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05:54:56 <zzo38> So something like (Global -> Free ((->) Token) [Token]) won't do (actually there are other reasons this won't do).
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06:27:43 <zzo38> But, C macros that do not have a code to write C macros, is one reason of C macros not very good.
06:32:26 <zzo38> I thought of idea make up a .NSF file which automatically composes some music and plays it, using the track number as a random number seed or other options perhaps.
07:00:32 <pikhq_> Gregor: Real men write M4 in M4M4
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07:30:51 <Sgeo> "No performance penalty
07:30:51 <Sgeo> Because Mirah directly targets the JVMs type system and JVM bytecode, it performs exactly as well as Java"
07:31:11 <Sgeo> As far as I'm concerned, the JVM in and of itself is a performance penalty
07:34:41 <fizzie> Says you. Java's faster than C. (If you just pick the right benchmark.)
07:34:54 <lambdabot> monochrom says: einstein's theory implies that haskell cannot be faster than c
07:35:30 <fizzie> But does it say anything about Java?!
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07:39:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15424
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07:53:16 <fizzie> Blarh. I was all set to go to my 10:30am breakfast/lunch, and then the restaurant in this building is closed for some kind of "private event", and I don't have time to go elsewhere since there's a meeting at 11am; and to add insult to injury, there's a strong smell of food since they're apparently cooking and setting up for that event. #firstworldproblems
08:00:39 <Deewiant> You could've noticed the signs saying 'THE RESTAURANT IN THIS BUILDING IS CLOSED FOR SOME KIND OF "PRIVATE EVENT" ON THURSDAY' on any earlier day of the week.
08:01:29 <fizzie> I didn't see any signs.
08:01:44 <fizzie> Are you sure there are signs.
08:02:16 <Deewiant> I saw signs on Monday. (And haven't been there since then.)
08:02:52 <fizzie> I haven't eaten in this building this week, and I enter from the bicycle stand door and take the stairs there, so I suppose I've just missed them.
08:03:18 <Deewiant> Right, the signs would've been near the restaurant.
08:03:44 <fizzie> It would've been nice to have it in ruokalistat.net, but I suppose that's asking a bit too much.
08:04:36 <fizzie> They do have e.g. "Suljemme ravintolan tänään klo 14.00" for TUAS today. I guess it depends on whether the scrapers happen to pick the stuff up.
08:05:28 <Deewiant> Yeah, I don't know how that site gets its info.
08:05:57 <fizzie> Sometimes there's nonsense, so I think it's just kludgy scripts scraping the sites.
08:06:50 <fizzie> There are the yellow single-letter gluten-free/vegetarian/non-lactose indicators, sometimes those end up in the middle of the dishes, leading me to believe it's done by a regexp-replace.
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08:10:54 <atriq> I'm still in denial about school happening
08:11:04 <atriq> Here I am sitting in school
08:11:22 <atriq> Accessing IRC apparently through my school's mail server
08:12:32 <shachaf> kmc: The Stripe CTF slides etc. are up.
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08:47:19 <atriq> @tell Phantom_Hoover RE: Fiji shipping, Newfoundland has expensive shipping and I think so does Hawai'i
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10:03:50 <shachaf> ion: What's that lambdabot command that has a lot of output?
10:03:55 <shachaf> The one that shows a raw IRC message.
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10:30:07 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo"]} rest:""
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11:43:01 <itidus21> atriq: you're not sure if this is IRC or something which appears to be IRC?
11:43:22 <itidus21> oh... i get it the apparent part was whether its via the mail server
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12:19:52 <fizzie> Every time that happens, I get the urge to write a pointless sympathy message.
12:20:25 <fizzie> Not the "@yarr" thing, the no-messages thing, I mean.
12:20:25 <lambdabot> fizzie: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
12:20:41 <lambdabot> quintopia asked 2m 24d 21h 54m 45s ago: could you run clustering and decoy analysis on the current hill plox?
12:21:00 <fizzie> I do have said something here less than that ago.
12:21:12 <shachaf> Yes, but you probably missed the message back then!
12:30:50 <atriq> My Fueue interpreter has devolved into a mess of varying levels of indentation
12:31:27 <atriq> I don't even know what I'm doing now
12:32:25 <fizzie> Perhaps you should endeavour to encode all the meaning into the indentations.
12:32:57 <atriq> I think first I shall try to work out what the meaning wants to be
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15:46:51 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, I sent you a message
15:47:15 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:47:31 <atriq> It's not very important
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16:56:44 <itidus21> x = howmanydoesittaketoscrewinalightbulb(y)
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19:25:22 <ion> A Finnish ISP’s marketing material for an Internet plan touts that you’ll get up to five Gmail accounts. https://kauppa.dna.fi/tuotteet/laajakaista/Laajakaista/LKKXXL (“Tuotetiedot”)
19:27:40 <Arc_Koen> well at least he might not me lying
19:27:40 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:27:57 <Arc_Koen> which is more than most marketing materials can say
19:28:00 <lambdabot> oerjan said 23h 7m 30s ago: <Arc_Koen> how do the category work anyway? is their a bot browsing all wiki pages and adding them to the right category pages? <-- it certainly updated immediately when
19:36:14 <kmc> a question from elsewhere: 'given the c99 standard, does it make sense (or is it even self-consistent) to have a representation for a signed bit field of length 1 that isn't two's complement? (and thus limited to {0, -1})'
19:36:19 <kmc> seems appropriate for this venue
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19:43:56 <FreeFull> What was the text to brainfuck function called again?
19:44:56 <Arc_Koen> FreeFull: I'm afraid I have no idea what you're refering to
19:45:31 <itidus21> !txt2bf its probably not called this
19:45:41 <itidus21> ^txt2bf its probably not called this either
19:46:30 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23467
19:46:53 <EgoBot> 55 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>---.+++++++.-------.>. [41]
19:47:44 <itidus21> ^bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>---.+++++++.-------.>.
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20:14:54 <EgoBot> 50 +++++++++++[>+++++++++>+>><<<<-]>--.+.+.--.+.+.>-. [79]
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20:17:21 <FireFly> The '-' before the last dot confuses me. Wouldn't that output a trailing 255-byte, instead of null?
20:17:33 <FireFly> (assuming single-byte cells & wraparound)
20:19:47 <FreeFull> What confuses me is the >><< in the loop
20:20:27 <atriq> It's not perfectly desinged
20:20:48 <atriq> In fact, I'd venture that to perfectly design it would be an excersize in futility
20:20:53 <FreeFull> Writing a brainfuck optimiser should be interesting
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21:26:21 <shachaf> kmc: They're getting rid of QSem in the next release of GHC. Apparently it's broken.
21:26:38 <kmc> broken how?
21:26:49 <shachaf> Apparently something to do with exception safety.
21:27:02 <shachaf> You're supposed to use the package SafeSemaphore instead now?
21:27:19 <kmc> haskell: making stuff safe by putting "Safe" before it since 1992
21:27:39 <kmc> caring a lot about safety while arguing about what it is
21:28:26 <kmc> that second one is not really a bad thing
21:29:00 <shachaf> GHC 7.6 is out, by the way.
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21:43:58 <Arc_Koen> atriq: don't you think it's weird to use a signed number just to have -1? wouldn't it be way more efficient to cover something like {-1, 0, ..., 254}?
21:44:12 <ion> shachaf: Oh, cool.
21:45:24 <kmc> what's new and cool in GHC 7.6
21:46:30 <ion> kmc: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/7.6.1/html/users_guide/release-7-6-1.html
21:46:35 <ion> Ooh, the CAPI thing is nice.
21:47:04 <Arc_Koen> !bf_txtgen AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
21:47:06 <EgoBot> 91 +++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>>.>.<..>......<....<..>>......<....<....>..>.>---. [912]
21:48:58 <itidus21> ^bf +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++>++++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>>--.>----.<-----------------------------------------.<.>>>-----.<<.>>-----.<<<++++++.++++++++.>.<-------.-.++++..----------.-------.>>>--.<<<+++.>.>.-----.<.<-.+.>>---------.-.>++++++.<<.>>++.+++++.---------.<.<.>.>++..<++++++++++.>.+.<<.>++++++.>-----.<-.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++.<---------
21:48:58 <itidus21> ------------------------------------------------------------.>+
21:48:58 <fungot> It is now possible to defer type errors until
21:49:17 <kmc> @ghc_ebooks
21:50:04 <kmc> TO RELAX WITH FRIENDS HOW TO RELAX WITH FRIENDS HOW TO RELAX WITH FRIENDS HOW TO RELAX WITH FRIENDS Listen to good music from CDs, tapes
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21:51:58 <itidus21> and introducing CD tapes which are surprisingly expensive
21:51:58 <ion> “An infix alias for mappend in Data.Monoid has been introduced” Wait… wasn’t that in 7.4 or so already?
21:52:51 <itidus21> on account of the technology required to spin a cassette tape as fast as an optical disc
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21:54:50 <Arc_Koen> itidus21: I'm thinking "intertia"
21:55:07 <itidus21> nvm, i respect that figuring out ghc 7.6 is gonna take some attention
21:55:07 <Arc_Koen> wow I really can't seem to type that one correctly
21:55:16 <shachaf> GHC 7.6 breaks a lot of things.
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21:57:25 <itidus21> hmm.. the public education system taught me to spell separate and surprise..
21:57:57 <itidus21> i think a spell checker taught me maybe
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22:00:13 <ion> shachaf: I wish they’d actually break a *lot* of existing code so we’d get a bunch of things fixed once and for all.
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22:02:30 <shachaf> ion: Instead we have to fix everything on every release. :-(
22:04:02 * oerjan suddenly finds (<$)'s argument order annoying
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22:07:20 <kmc> itidus21: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magneto-optical_drive
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22:12:03 <itidus21> thats much wilder than what i had in mind.. i was merely thinking of an audio cassette tape attached to a small cd
22:16:03 <itidus21> it's quite dizzying to consider progress
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22:57:28 <oerjan> <FireFly> The '-' before the last dot confuses me. Wouldn't that output a trailing 255-byte, instead of null?
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22:57:39 <oerjan> it outputs a trailing 10-byte, actually.
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23:27:21 <Arc_Koen> there's that idea of "Lahey-space" for funges
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23:27:56 <Arc_Koen> instead of making the wrapping continuous, having it keep the property of "being on the same line"
23:28:26 <Arc_Koen> and then there's the idea that most int / char / whatever integer types in many esolangs wrap
23:28:58 <Arc_Koen> so I was thinking "what about apllying the idea of Lahey-space to that?"
23:29:30 <Arc_Koen> for instance, 255+1 gives 0, but maybe 128*2 does not give 0
23:30:52 <Arc_Koen> I don't really know what it would be but I'm pretty sure there's something to be found here
23:32:36 <Arc_Koen> and with that thought I'm gonna head off to bed, see you :)
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23:56:01 <kmc> 9 Power_On_Hours 0x0032 000 000 000 Old_age Always - 205969452541786
23:56:29 <kmc> so my brand new drive has been powered on for approximately 23 billion years
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01:07:56 <lambdabot> The operator `.' [infixr 9] of a section
01:07:56 <lambdabot> must have lower precedence than that of the operand,
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04:25:07 <kmc> http://chainsawsuit.com/2012/09/06/new-pizza-hut-fraczas/
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07:49:05 <shachaf> ion: Yay, you deal with the mmap thing this time.
07:53:36 <shachaf> ion: Is it just me or do I hate #haskell?
07:54:36 <ion> shachaf: It’s not you, it’s Hitler.
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12:21:52 <fizzie> (I hadn't even heard of these 'ellos before.)
12:21:54 <lambdabot> *** "morello" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
12:21:55 <lambdabot> n 1: any of several cultivated sour cherry trees bearing fruit
12:21:55 <lambdabot> with dark skin and juice [syn: {morello}, {Prunus cerasus
12:21:56 <lambdabot> 2: cultivated sour cherry with dark-colored skin and juice
12:21:59 <lambdabot> *** "bargello" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
12:22:03 <lambdabot> n 1: needlepoint embroidery stitch that produces zigzag lines
12:22:34 <ion> Oh, one of bargello’s synonyms is bargello?
12:23:05 <ion> > compare "bargello" "bargello" -- copypaste check
12:24:13 <fizzie> It's just the whole set.
12:24:20 <fizzie> Note that one of morello's synonyms is morello.
12:24:53 <fizzie> The command-line tool outputs "1. bargello, flame stitch -- (needlepoint embroidery stitch that produces zigzag lines)" which makes a bit more sense.
12:49:29 <olsner> oh, greek is apparently very remotely related to any other living languages
12:49:50 <olsner> I suppose that's the reason I had no idea until now which languages it was related to
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13:53:43 * impomatic wonders if anyone is going to Spectrum 30 tomorrow? http://www.spectrum30.org.uk
13:54:45 <fizzie> I have a has-a-Speccy-past friend, but I doubt he's going to UK just for that.
13:58:34 <olsner> why is this the official channel of PEZ?
14:00:47 <fizzie> I thought PEZ was one of those universal kind of things.
14:02:22 <olsner> maybe it just hasn't reached hexham yet
14:03:16 <olsner> (or wherever impomatic is)
14:03:47 <fizzie> I don't think Hexham. Not absolutely everything is Hexham (yet).
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14:04:04 <olsner> not everything, you say? weird.
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14:09:32 <itidus21> But Labour MPs accused the Tories of trying to "gerrymander" the system and claimed the changes will produce major anomalies as seats are carved up to reduce the overall number.[...]The new Hexham seat for example would take in part of Gateshead, which currently forms a section of the Blaydon constituency that would completely disappear under the shake-up
14:12:08 <olsner> if you move Hexham to Gateshead, what happens to whatever was previously at Gateshead?
14:19:24 <itidus21> this http://sacvs.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/watkins_punishment_600_410.jpg
14:31:29 <olsner> "Boston, north Hexham"
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14:37:34 <olsner> hmm, so there's a 105 SEK pocket edition that I can buy, and also a 69 SEK pocket that "hasn't been published yet"
14:38:44 <olsner> I guess that means the available one is the "pocket for nearsighted people with very large pockets" edition
14:43:43 <ion> http://www.theworldbyroad.com/expedition/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/shower-2.jpg
14:45:07 <olsner> hmm, if the water gets electrified, will that really affect you? I suspect the pipe will be a better grounding than either of you or the water anyway
14:49:05 <ion> Yes, it’s completely safe, nothing whatsoever to worry about.
14:53:33 <itidus21> so basically it's an electric shower head?
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15:04:25 <itidus21> We have experienced some difficulty to get the Star Trek Google Doodle to work in Internet Explorer and in Firefox. To experience the Google doodle as it were intended we recommend that you use Google Chrome for it to work 100%
15:05:47 <olsner> Upgrade to Google Doodle Premium now for only 1 soul?
15:06:25 <itidus21> The FTC settlement included a disclosure provision where Intel must: "...publish clearly that its compiler discriminates against non-Intel processors (such as AMD's designs), not fully utilizing their features and producing inferior code."
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15:07:15 <itidus21> well i wouldn't call it opportunism
15:08:30 <nortti> lambdabot: it should be 5
15:09:52 <atriq> > let 2+2=5 in 2+2
15:10:06 <atriq> > let (+) = 5 in 2+2
15:10:20 <atriq> lambdabot has some crazy instances
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15:12:37 <lambdabot> *Exception: <interactive>:3:4-10: Non-exhaustive patterns in function +
15:13:07 <lambdabot> *Exception: <interactive>:3:4-10: Non-exhaustive patterns in function +
15:13:28 <lambdabot> *Exception: <interactive>:3:4-10: Non-exhaustive patterns in function +
15:13:46 <FireFly> > let 2+2 = 5; 1+5 = 8 in 1+(2+2)
15:20:04 <atriq> Haskell is a fun language
15:20:40 <atriq> > let id 0 = 0; id n = (n * 2) in map id [1..10]
15:29:14 <atriq> > runKleisli (Kleisli return >>> Kleisli (\x -> [1,2,3,x])) 1
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16:52:13 <Arc_Koen> atriq: why would you need to specify id 0 = 0?
16:52:24 <atriq> Becuase it completely shadows id
16:52:40 <atriq> Because I changed my mind half way through writing it
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17:54:47 <atriq> Pretty cool guy, that danko
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18:25:24 <itidus21> so what happens when.. gorillas are given access to search engines
18:25:41 <itidus21> and cameras to make pics available as search results
18:26:04 <atriq> Pretty much nothing
18:27:23 <itidus21> in general, what happens when we let animals have their own internets
18:28:37 <atriq> Still, pretty much nothing
18:28:43 <itidus21> first we make them dependant on the internet
18:29:01 <itidus21> by making them abandon their old ways of doing things, and their old traditions
18:30:12 <itidus21> .... yeah... i dont think im thinking clearly
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19:11:02 <Sgeo> I might accidentally qualify for a math minor.
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19:22:05 <hagb4rd> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Leibniz_Monadology_2.jpg
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19:23:13 <oerjan> it only took me 14 years
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19:26:15 <Sgeo> I happened to take so many math classes that, without deliberately seeking to, I might qualify
19:26:23 <Sgeo> I did not have minoring in math as a goal
19:27:06 <oerjan> NOW IF HIS SCHOOL ONLY HAD REAL MATH
19:27:24 <atriq> I start Groups soon
19:27:30 * oerjan is filling in for the other cynics today
19:28:00 <atriq> Doing other stuff too
19:28:12 <atriq> Algebra type stuff
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19:32:38 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subdirectly_irreducible_algebra
19:33:34 <atriq> I'm only up to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_fraction
19:34:13 <oerjan> that's ok, you'll get to the S'es soon enough
19:43:31 <impomatic> What do you think of the Google Nexus 7? I might buy one tomorrow...
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19:49:06 <Sgeo> java.awt.Robot looks like it could be fun
19:50:17 <oerjan> <olsner> oh, greek is apparently very remotely related to any other living languages <-- what crackpot got _you_ today?
19:50:36 <atriq> He may be thinking of Basque
19:50:48 <oerjan> ...doesn't precisely help.
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19:52:05 <olsner> oerjan: there's like one other living language in the whole hellenic language group, but it's dying
19:52:22 <atriq> Greek had a lot of influence on Latin
19:52:35 <atriq> And hence the romantic languages and English
19:52:53 <oerjan> olsner: um greek is indoeuropean. that means it's rather closer related to say english and swedish than to any language which isn't
19:52:57 <olsner> the closest relation to other languages seems to be that it's indo-european, but "almost everything" is
19:53:23 <atriq> The tree model is a poor approximation at best
19:54:48 <Sgeo> This was typed in using a Clojure REPL that has access to awtbot
19:54:53 <Sgeo> (Although I press Enter myself)
19:55:14 <oerjan> i actually recall a theory that implies that languages are _not_ all related - namely that in some places with very friendly climate new language families may be created by children getting lost before learning to speak. it supposedly might explain why new guinea as such an enormous amount of language families (iirc the theory also said there was a part of california that used to be like this)
19:56:33 <olsner> yeah yeah, but learn a germanic language and a romance language and you have a head start on a large proportion of european languages, but knowing any or all of those seems to help very poorly when it comes to understanding greek
19:56:46 <oerjan> olsner: hey just because indo-european is the largest language family doesn't mean there are no others.
19:57:19 <olsner> bah, you're just picking on the wrong ends of everything I've said :)
19:57:51 <Sgeo> This is a test, this is only a test.
19:57:52 <oerjan> olsner: that's because they all share a lot of latin loanwords, but there are greek ones too.
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19:59:11 <oerjan> i wouldn't bet on it helping with russian or hungarian either :)
19:59:32 <oerjan> more than greek, that is
19:59:56 <olsner> the greek loan words seem to be either less popular or a lot less useful, or just not in the relevant parts of the language
19:59:56 <atriq> Or Basque or Finnish
20:01:58 <olsner> what I'm referring to is things like using knowledge in {spanish,french,italian,latin} to decipher text in any of the other languages, which seems to usually work fairly well
20:02:17 <olsner> ... and that the set of non-greek languages useful for doing the same in greek seems to be empty
20:05:46 <quintopia> olsner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
20:06:10 <quintopia> hi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
20:06:24 <olsner> that's an awful lot of hi
20:06:38 * Sgeo should try to have some fun with the Robot]
20:06:43 <olsner> why would I want to do that!?
20:09:21 <olsner> anyway, that was me reflecting on going to greece and my vaguely existing skills in other european languages being useless for understanding greek
20:13:39 <oerjan> i vaguely recall once reading armenian is closest to greek, although it may not have been very firm
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20:16:53 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_language implies they're usually considered separate branches of indo-european, but that other groupings have been proposed
20:18:11 <oerjan> well yes, closest branch.
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20:20:02 <olsner> oerjan: does norway have cabbage pudding?
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20:21:46 <lexande_> today i went to a talk where the speaker kept prefacing his theorems with "If ZFC is consistent, then"
20:21:56 <lexande_> people made fun of him for this a bit
20:23:20 <pikhq> "Hey guys, I've got a proof that ZFC is consistent!"
20:24:08 <zzo38> Why? Would some theorems fail if ZFC is inconsistent? If ZFC is inconsistent wouldn't everything be a theorem?
20:24:33 <pikhq> zzo38: If you prove ZFC consistent using ZFC, it is not consistent.
20:25:11 <oerjan> olsner: not exactly i think
20:25:13 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes I know that too; I was refering to lexande_'s message about the speaker who kept prefacing his theorems with "If ZFC is consistent, then"
20:25:56 <Taneb> Is ZFC the one that's equivalent to Axiom of Choice?
20:26:00 <oerjan> http://www.nrk.no/mat/1.6150114 has a recipe in norwegian - by tina nordström :)
20:26:31 <quintopia> Taneb: it contains the AoC as an axiom
20:26:45 <quintopia> zorns lemma is equivalent to the aoc
20:26:49 <lexande_> zzo38, the theorems were like, if ZFC is consistent then there is a model of a multiverse of forcing with these properties
20:27:10 <lexande_> Taneb, ZFC is just the usual axioms of set theory/maths, including Choice
20:27:12 <zzo38> lexande_: O, OK. So that's why he did that.
20:27:17 <Taneb> I was thinking of Zorn's lemma
20:27:37 <Taneb> Or possibly the Well Ordering Principle
20:27:52 <Taneb> This is like yesterday when I got 5th Cell and Level 5 mixed up
20:27:54 <olsner> and here's one in english: http://swedecheese.blogspot.se/2008/05/food-journal-number-39-klpudding.html
20:29:44 <oerjan> olsner: i think no:kålruletter (rather old-fashioned) is about the same as sv:kåldolmar, however
20:30:06 <zzo38> I realized what I forgot in RogueVM which is banks of the screen grid (like screen pages on PC)
20:30:57 <zzo38> I expect two pages is sufficient, but if you don't agree, please notify me.
20:31:41 <olsner> oerjan: I think that's essentially the same as cabbage pudding but in a different format
20:31:58 <oerjan> "The Axiom of Choice is obviously true, the well-ordering principle obviously false, and who can tell about Zorn's lemma?"
20:32:18 <oerjan> olsner: well yes it was mentioned in a pudding page
20:32:34 <olsner> seems a lot trickier to make too
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20:35:29 <Sgeo> Why do I keep thinking that lifeboats are small things that hold maybe 4 people?
20:35:49 <olsner> because in some cases they are?
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20:41:02 <zzo38> Do you know a XML reading library in C?
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21:01:09 <zzo38> .. A HUSH FALLS OVER THE AREN. .HE FIG.TERS APPROACH THE RING
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21:05:54 * quintopia picks up the Hush and puts it back on its perch.
21:06:25 <olsner> "Typically a crystal ball is connected to the chip at OSC1 and OSC2 pins."
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21:08:36 <olsner> I'm guessing OSC stands for oracular sensor chip (circuit?) or somesuch
21:09:32 <olsner> Oracular Scintillator?
21:10:38 <olsner> (obviously, the word "ball" was not originally there)
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21:31:15 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: b = a -> b
21:31:15 <lambdabot> Probable cause: `>>=' is applied to too many arguments
21:31:15 <lambdabot> In the first argument of `foldr', namely `(>>=)'
21:31:30 <oerjan> :t foldr (>>=) (return ())
21:31:31 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: b = a -> b
21:31:32 <lambdabot> Probable cause: `>>=' is applied to too many arguments
21:31:32 <lambdabot> In the first argument of `foldr', namely `(>>=)'
21:32:15 <Sgeo> Heh, someone was trying to build a botloop in #clojure
21:33:01 * oerjan realized he wanted sequence_ instead
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22:07:10 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: doesn't your brainfunct truth-machine have an off-by-one error? i.e. loops on '0' rather than '1'
22:09:28 <oerjan> @tell Arc_Koen doesn't your brainfunct truth-machine have an off-by-one error? i.e. loops on '0' rather than '1'
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22:19:10 <zzo38> Do you like these ideas for scenarios of the Dungeons&Dragons game? * The sun rises in the wrong place. * Suddenly the money changes into different money. * The phase of the moon is now different shapes other than round, such as square and hexagon and so on. * A dwarf walks in to a bar (ouch). Heal him, please. * Help a beholder find his lost monocle/glasses.
22:21:06 <zzo38> * A war occurs over unclaimed land. * Some people assign the party to a completely impossible task (not because it is too difficult, but because of references to things that do not exist, or illogical things, etc). * Kjugobe and other illithids pursued by illithid slayers and evil druids. The illithid slayers and evil druid should probably be defeated. * The king is allergic to magic and wishes all spellcasters (arcane, divine, and psionic) d
22:21:24 <zzo38> * You find a map, but it is all wrong.
22:41:43 <itidus21> where some means none <= some <= all
22:41:56 <zzo38> OK yes that is what I thought you meant.
22:42:22 <zzo38> However that is not specific as to what?
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22:45:08 <zzo38> * The king of another city is attacking gibbering mouthers as well as anyone who enters his city. Hold the second one as you hold a pencil, in order to save the gibbering mouthers from the king's army. Bonus points if you give Potion of Confusing to gibbering mouthers who like that. * Someone wants to charge minstrels everywhere royalties. Stop their evil scheme. * A few magical items are found; you must not only figure out exactly what they do
22:45:13 <zzo38> I hope this message is not too long.
22:47:09 <itidus21> my useless contribution doubled it's size.
22:47:47 <zzo38> Is it exactly double?
22:48:36 <itidus21> anyway, i think you could afford to make it 50 lines long...
22:49:46 <oerjan> zzo38: ... exactly what they do
22:50:11 <zzo38> What is the last word you have received in the long message?
22:51:35 <oerjan> oh and the previous one stopped at (arcane, divine, and psionic) d
22:51:47 <zzo38> * A few magical items are found; you must not only figure out exactly what they do (identification magic cannot be used), but also how to effectively use them for escape.
22:51:53 <zzo38> * The king is allergic to magic and wishes all spellcasters (arcane, divine, and psionic) destroyed (including the royal spellcasters).
22:52:39 <shachaf> "Shun magic, and shun the appearance of magic! Shun everything, and then shun shunning!"
22:53:12 <Sgeo> I wonder what people who think that Rails is too "magic" think of Clojure stuff, considering the usage of macros
22:53:24 <Sgeo> Do macros tend to feel less magic than run-time metaprogramming?
22:53:38 <kmc> i think so yes
22:53:48 <kmc> you can ask for the macro expansion
22:54:03 <zzo38> I don't know Clojure but I think in general, both macros and run-time can be useful.
22:54:22 <kmc> and they're sort of visual analogies
22:54:35 <kmc> at least in simple cases and with tasteful use of quasiquoting
22:56:56 * Sgeo is suddenly sad that Tcl doesn't have quasiquoting
22:57:01 <itidus21> zzo38: so it worked out at about 23 lines.
22:59:15 <zzo38> oerjan: Do you like this game?
22:59:26 <itidus21> * Some people assign the party to a completely impossible task (not because it is too difficult, but because of references to things that do not exist, or illogical things, etc). <-- this is a fairly good explanation of koans :D
22:59:41 <zzo38> How does quasiquoting work?
22:59:53 <zzo38> In those programming language?
23:00:54 <itidus21> eg. The king assigned his best knight to find a man who could demonstrate the sound of one hand clapping.
23:03:53 <oerjan> zzo38: i'm not particularly interested
23:08:44 <itidus21> so all this talk of scenarios reminds me of an interview with a final fantasy scenario writer where he explained that if scenario writing was automated he would be out of a job
23:09:42 <itidus21> so on the subject of humans jobs being automated by machines, the machines don't really make mistakes. and when they do they follow fairly pre-defined routines to deal with them
23:10:06 <itidus21> and if in practice they need help when they fail, then they are not infact entirely automated
23:10:32 <itidus21> but also, when humans do a job they always consider ways it can be done better or differently
23:10:49 <itidus21> and when they make mistakes it can inspire breakthrouhgs
23:11:20 <zzo38> I wrote them by hand. Some are based on ones from other sources, some are based on a computer game I have written, and some I just wrote my own. Automated programs can sometimes help a little bit but you still have to program it and modify its program to make a new one, and then if you don't like the result, modify it.
23:11:23 <itidus21> so machines are learning to react to feedback
23:11:50 <itidus21> i suspect that its just not the same
23:19:51 <itidus21> once a machine spends all it's time experimenting on work, it's no longer doing work
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23:20:38 <elliott> kmc: https://github.com/albertz/playground/blob/master/test_importearlyexit.py
23:23:41 <FreeFull> itidus21: Now, how do you fully automate them if humans make mistakes
23:25:28 <itidus21> i guess that nothing truely gets perfected
23:26:16 <itidus21> because... i could barely parse that sentence.. thats my excuse
23:27:00 <Sgeo> Is it really that wrong to want to use java.awRobot as a fun toy?
23:27:12 <Sgeo> erm, java.awt.Robot
23:29:40 <Sgeo> ##java didn't like my implication that my reason for wanting to use java.awt.Robot was becuase it seemed fun
23:29:50 <itidus21> Sgeo: i want to make a robot in 2d using textured vector graphics which can position it's legs using inverse kinematics
23:30:19 <itidus21> but then again im not sure that i do
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23:32:06 <Sgeo> awtbot is a nice Clojure library for using it, but it has an idiotic with-robot macro. Maybe it was written before doto worked with all forms?
23:36:17 <Sgeo> </robot-abuse>
23:37:20 <itidus21> and here i was thinking it might relate to robotics :P
23:38:52 <itidus21> sounds like it could be useful for writing aimbots in video games
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00:33:19 <kmc> Sgeo: you're not allowed to "use" things in Java, only "leverage" them
00:41:53 <Arc_Koen> ok, someone has implemented Conway's game of life, and someone else a brainfuck interpreter... *in spacechem*
00:41:53 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
00:41:58 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 32m 30s ago: doesn't your brainfunct truth-machine have an off-by-one error? i.e. loops on '0' rather than '1'
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00:44:30 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: I wrote an interpreter for brainfunct and I checked the truth-machine, it was working
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00:44:49 <oerjan> i wrote another interpreter and it didn't :/
00:45:01 <Arc_Koen> hmm maybe the functions are numbered differently
00:45:53 <oerjan> > length "///////////////////////////////////////////////"
00:46:15 <Arc_Koen> maybe I just copypasted it wrong
00:46:21 <oerjan> there are 47 initial /'s, so the .@ function following them is on 48
00:47:14 <Arc_Koen> and my interpreter just looped on 0
00:49:24 <Arc_Koen> funny thing, the brainfunct program is tail-recursive but my interpreter doesn't acknowledge that, because of the 'for' loop
00:49:55 <Arc_Koen> I guess I should fix that by taking the last step out of the for loop
00:50:17 <oerjan> should I/O be binary or text-mode?
00:51:06 <Arc_Koen> > length "///////////////////////////////////////////////"
01:01:21 <Arc_Koen> weird, it should be tail recursive now, but it still says Stack_overflow
01:08:45 <zzo38> G. Steele seems to be much better than my current PG (Cahill) but they are too expensive.
01:09:35 * oerjan puts his haskell interpreter on the wiki page
01:10:22 <Sgeo> Wait, what, a Haskell interpreter in an esolang?
01:10:36 <oerjan> i distinctly expected that comment
01:10:49 <oerjan> but no, it's brainfunct in haskell
01:10:51 <zzo38> Then your expectations are correct.
01:11:02 <Sgeo> I honestly was confused, not trying to make a joke. I am unconfused
01:11:27 * Arc_Koen fought hard not to make the joke
01:11:46 <Arc_Koen> so, hum, some guy wrote a brainfuck interpreter in spacechem
01:11:51 <oerjan> and i couldn't resist keeping it in
01:12:06 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: btw i support nesting
01:12:22 <zzo38> I have made one Haskell program on esolang wiki on its own page; the raw contents of the page are a valid Haskell program and the page can also be read like other wiki page. Such thing can be done with Haskell.
01:12:23 <oerjan> in theory anyhow, i haven't tested except by modifying the cat
01:12:40 <Arc_Koen> I have no idea how useful nesting can be, though
01:13:15 <Sgeo> " This is great news for you, and bad news for malware generators, because:"
01:13:26 <Sgeo> Hey, for all you know, blog post, I might be a malware generator!
01:13:34 * Sgeo is not in fact a malware generator.
01:13:41 <Arc_Koen> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzzLzUCRmBw&feature=player_embedded
01:14:08 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: Haskell sounds like a very hard to read ocaml
01:14:53 <kmc> ocaml syntax is fugly
01:14:58 <kmc> haskell syntax is more complicated but nicer
01:15:41 <kmc> zzo38: is it Literate Haskell?
01:16:10 <zzo38> This game is difficult I only have one C so if he is injured, I am probably going to lose.
01:16:31 <kmc> i just checked and Literate Haskell is in the Report
01:16:32 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, it is Literate Haskell. You can embed Literate Haskell in HTML, XML, MediaWiki, TeX, and other formats without much difficult.
01:16:35 <kmc> i thought it wasn't
01:16:47 <zzo38> kmc: Well, now you know.
01:17:13 <kmc> and knowing is haf the battle
01:17:42 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: I'm not sure brainfunct is equivalent to brainfuck, actually
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01:18:52 <Arc_Koen> it lacks a test instruction - the truth-machine is a good example of this lack
01:20:18 <kmc> someone should start a band named The Regents of the University of California
01:20:33 <zzo38> kmc: Are you going to do so?
01:21:16 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: you can simulate brainfuck with a smaller cell size, i think
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01:23:20 <oerjan> let's say you need k branch points in the program, and your brainfuck has cells 0 ... n-1, then you can add n*i where i is the number of your branch
01:23:43 <oerjan> may need some off by one tweaking
01:24:32 <Arc_Koen> hummmm I'm pretty sure I did not understand what you just said
01:24:33 <oerjan> and for this you need brainfunct cell values 1 .. n*k
01:25:45 <Arc_Koen> but it is 3 in the morning and I'm tired and I have to get up in 4h and a half so I'll read the logs tomorrow to try to understand
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01:35:18 <Sgeo> Does HackEgo have the JVM? Can it be installed?
01:35:58 <Sgeo> `run where java
01:36:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: where: not found
01:36:20 <HackEgo> bash: where: command not found
01:37:19 <HackEgo> bin/joustreport \ bin/jousturl \ bin/json
01:37:26 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /bin/j*: No such file or directory
01:37:35 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr \ var
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01:38:08 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /bin/*jc: No such file or directory
01:38:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: where: not found
01:39:19 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/jar \ /usr/bin/jarsigner \ /usr/bin/java \ /usr/bin/javac \ /usr/bin/javadoc \ /usr/bin/javah \ /usr/bin/javap \ /usr/bin/javaws \ /usr/bin/jcf-dump \ /usr/bin/jcf-dump-4.3 \ /usr/bin/jcf-dump-4.4 \ /usr/bin/jconsole \ /usr/bin/jdb \ /usr/bin/jexec \ /usr/bin/jhat \ /usr/bin/jinfo \ /usr/bin/jmap \ /usr/bin/join \ /usr/bin/jps \ /usr/bin/jrunscript \ /usr/bin/js \ /usr/bin/jsadebugd \ /usr/bin/jstack
01:39:31 <Sgeo> I am now reading Java documentation
01:39:33 <Sgeo> I feel sad at this
01:39:46 <Sgeo> Like I shouldn't have to read Java documentation
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01:43:42 <Sgeo> ObjectFactoryBuilder
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01:46:00 <kmc> the workers in your factory are going to unionize
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01:46:29 <Sgeo> Why does the Factory pattern have ... a name, exactly?
01:46:40 <Sgeo> What's so esoteric about a function that returns an object?
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01:48:07 <Sgeo> It seems like a problem easily solved by having classes be first-class
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01:50:56 <elliott> why isn't arch linux's ghc package 7.6.1 yet
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01:53:41 <elliott> I am very displeased shachaf
01:57:14 <oerjan> elliott: i _almost_ made my first brainfuck interpreter today
01:57:22 <oerjan> except it was brainfunct instead.
01:58:49 <elliott> oerjan: sounds like you're brainfunct in the head
01:59:19 <elliott> HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA [audience applauds] [member of audience shot] [bomb explodes in the air] [confetti comes out of the bomb] [spontaneous party begins]
01:59:40 <elliott> [everyone wakes up the next day smelling of petrol and thinking about puppies]
02:00:53 -!- trout has changed nick to variable.
02:02:26 <oerjan> as long as he gets fed enough brains
02:03:02 <elliott> [the face of a well-known politician covered in chocolate smiling forever]
02:03:32 <elliott> [an image of your death but instead of you it's a cardboard cutout of bill, the guy in the photocopier]
02:03:46 <Sgeo> Is doall vs dorun always going to trip me up?
02:04:00 <Sgeo> (For the Clojure impaired, doall is like sequence and dorun is like sequence_)
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02:47:50 <shachaf> elliott: The Arch maintainers tried, but I kept getting in their way.
02:48:40 <elliott> shachaf: Thank you for your apology.
02:48:49 <elliott> shachaf: Do you know about upgrading GHc with the binary distribution?
02:48:57 <elliott> Will it correctly uninstall stuff if I just run it or do I need to rm -r /opt/ghc?
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02:49:23 <shachaf> Also a bunch of things aren't 7.6-compatible yet.
02:49:39 <elliott> shachaf: rm as opposed to what?
02:50:08 <shachaf> As opposed to not uninstall the old GHC.
02:50:12 <shachaf> You can have more than one, you know.
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02:51:06 <zzo38> I have a combination VHS/DVD I want to know how to write software to replace the one on there, to add some features which are missing and to make it run faster.
02:57:46 <elliott> it's not /opt/ghc-whateverversion
02:58:06 <shachaf> Where did it come to /opt/ghc from, anyway?
03:01:05 <elliott> shachaf: From me putting it there.
03:01:27 <shachaf> elliott: Well, put GHC 7.6.1 in /opt/ghc-7.6.1
03:02:07 <shachaf> Well, so's your AXIOM SYSTEM!!!!!
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03:06:54 <elliott> shachaf: So what's not 7.6 compatible?
03:06:58 <elliott> I have this thing I want to write in 7.6.
03:07:11 <shachaf> elliott: Just install 7.6 and keep 7.4.
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03:07:23 <shachaf> Then you can find out "4 urselv!!"
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03:08:10 <elliott> shachaf: You have to tell me as an apology for stopping the Arch maintainers.
03:08:23 <shachaf> TypeCompose is broken in 7.6!!!!!!!
03:09:16 <elliott> Does edwardk's stuff work?
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03:10:30 <shachaf> elliott: Want a "free tip" on making things not break with 7.6?
03:10:49 <shachaf> Take "constraint: containers < 0.5" out of your ~/.cabal/config
03:11:37 <elliott> shachaf: I don't think I have that in my ~/.cabal/config.
03:11:43 <elliott> shachaf: So what's broken, seriously?
03:12:24 <shachaf> happy is broken unless you meddle with it.
03:12:31 <elliott> How do you have to meddle it?
03:12:38 <shachaf> Something about exceptions.
03:12:55 <shachaf> Because they took out Control.OldException.
03:12:59 <shachaf> Everything that uses that is broken.
03:14:03 <Sgeo> Hmm, good thing about the Clojure ecosystem, which I assume is because of Java classpaths: There's no system-wide library installation
03:14:11 <Sgeo> Just project-local installation
03:14:32 <Sgeo> It's not enough to solve all issues with dependencies, but it's a start
03:18:44 <elliott> `1`0`9i90`i190`i190`i1u90348u5901809t89008210`0`0`89`8989`89189`18989`891889`8989289`89289`89289`89289`89289`892`8929`8939128989489`89589`9789`89589`8975897`897587`894892899899042045t89290845t9030r90u90gjrtgjr
03:18:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 1`0`9i90`i190`i190`i1u90348u5901809t89008210`0`0`89`8989`89189`18989`891889`8989289`89289`89289`89289`89289`892`8929`8939128989489`89589`9789`89589`8975897`897587`894892899899042045t89290845t9030r90u90gjrtgjr: not found
03:19:22 <elliott> [elliott@dinky tmp]$ sudo rm -rf /opt/ghc/
03:22:03 <elliott> checking for path to top of build tree... utils/ghc-pwd/dist-install/build/tmp/ghc-pwd: error while loading shared libraries: libgmp.so.3: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
03:22:03 <elliott> configure: error: cannot determine current directory
03:22:30 <shachaf> elliott: Should've mved instead of rmed.
03:22:39 <shachaf> elliott: You need libgmp3, not libgmp10.
03:22:51 <shachaf> elliott: If you still had GHC 7.4 you could use it to compile 7.6!
03:23:16 <elliott> I don't have enough time to compile GHC.
03:23:43 <shachaf> Oh, wait, there already is one!
03:23:51 <shachaf> Which says that the next release will use a newer GMP.
03:24:04 <elliott> And when was that written?
03:25:10 <zzo38> Did I miss anything in RogueVM? I want to ensure I have not missed anything important!
03:26:04 <shachaf> elliott: About a week ago?
03:26:17 <shachaf> elliott: I think I've made up for the thing I did.
03:26:32 <elliott> :: Replace libsystemd with core/systemd? [Y/n] y
03:26:33 <elliott> :: Replace systemd-tools with core/systemd? [Y/n] y
03:26:54 <shachaf> elliott: You know I've never used Arch, right?
03:27:26 <shachaf> You should try rm -rf /opt
03:27:51 <elliott> Oh no, I'd lose Dwarf Fortress!!!
03:28:24 <shachaf> df - report file system disk space usage
03:28:34 <shachaf> That's not darawfw froteres!
03:28:57 <ion> amnesia apt-local google
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03:59:00 <elliott> shachaf: Is GHC's kind-level programming still basically unityped?
03:59:16 <elliott> I don't know if I'm expressing what I mean properly.
04:00:17 <shachaf> elliott: There's this whole promotion thing...
04:00:22 <elliott> shachaf: Here's what I mean:
04:00:36 <elliott> data Foo a where Blah :: (C a) => a -> Foo a,
04:00:41 <elliott> what happens to the (C a) when I do 'Blah?
04:00:45 <elliott> Oh, wait, GADTs don't get lifted.
04:00:50 <elliott> OK, translate that into the relevant ADT syntax.
04:00:57 <elliott> Hmm, I guess I can just use an existence proof, actually.
04:01:02 <elliott> Except I don't think that will translate. Woe.
04:02:09 <elliott> shachaf: What's the extension to allow type-level literals again?
04:02:45 <shachaf> elliott: GHC will tell you if you try to use one!
04:03:33 <elliott> shachaf: Have you guessed what I'm trying to do yet?
04:03:42 <kmc> look around you, just look around you
04:03:47 <kmc> have you worked out what we're looking for?
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04:07:18 <elliott> shachaf: Do you have TypeEq handy?
04:07:25 <elliott> I need it. For this thing.
04:07:39 <elliott> Wait, is "type instance Foo t t = ..." valid?
04:07:41 <elliott> If so I might not need it.
04:08:08 <elliott> Comparsion of type-level naturals.
04:08:28 <elliott> Wait, why is there <= but no ==?
04:09:00 <zzo38> You could make == by using <= I suppose
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04:20:37 <elliott> shachaf: Hah! I did it! Well, partially, at least.
04:20:59 <shachaf> elliott: In spite of my best afforts!
04:21:12 <elliott> shachaf: http://sprunge.us/RAHN
04:21:21 <elliott> You can RAHN but you can't HIDE.
04:22:40 <elliott> Such lovely types, too: test :: Record (Cons * * "x" Integer (Cons * * "y" Integer Empty))
04:23:07 <elliott> Data constructor `Empty' cannot be used here
04:23:08 <elliott> (it is defined and used in the same recursive group)
04:25:25 <elliott> shachaf: Now's your chance to change that!
04:37:35 <elliott> <BMeph> JoeyA: They make Haskell compilers in Haskell for the same reason that ugly men date beautiful women: 1) Because it's enjoyable; 2) Because they can. ;)
04:37:42 <elliott> shachaf: You know, I didn't think it was possible, but #haskell actually got worse since I left.
04:38:17 <pikhq> Haskell failed at its primary mission.
04:38:22 <pikhq> And now it is but an abomination.
04:38:42 <zzo38> Its primary mission is what?
04:38:51 <elliott> shachaf: YayMe is one of Those Guys, right?
04:39:52 <kmc_> its primary mission was to unify research in lazy functional programming behind one language
04:39:56 <kmc_> i think it succeeded at that
04:40:07 <kmc_> i think that's a mission that's only relevant to like 100 people
04:40:26 <pikhq> zzo38: Its primary mission is to avoid popularity at all costs.
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04:42:13 <elliott> kmc: I'm trying GHC 7.6 but its kind system isn't advanced enough. :(
04:42:20 <elliott> I need kind-level typeclass constraints, you see.
04:42:49 <zzo38> I wanted to invent Ibtlfmm, to have kind-level typeclass constraints and various other things
04:44:33 <zzo38> Because typeclass constraints on kinds is something I wanted too
04:44:35 * oerjan is imagining elliott being tempted by Ibtlfmm
04:44:48 <zzo38> It isn't only you!
04:45:34 <elliott> I... guess that's reassuring?
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05:31:34 <Sgeo> elliott, what's your opinion of the Eclipse Public License?
05:34:16 <shachaf> elliott: Am I one of "Those Guys"?
05:34:35 <zzo38> Make a pokemon card puzzle requiring to retreat six times.
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06:27:32 <zzo38> Have you ever tried inverting some piece of music?
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06:34:20 <elliott> shachaf: You didn't tell me *cabal-install* was broken.
06:34:26 <elliott> shachaf: Come on, now my window manager is broken.
06:35:35 <elliott> shachaf: And *mtl* is broken.
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07:38:42 <impomatic> elliott, sgeo: what's your opinion on EPL. What's your preferred license?
07:39:23 <Sgeo> I haven't read it, but from what I know about it, it seems like an interesting idea
07:41:42 <Sgeo> Although... I do think I'd prefer my code to be usable from/with proprietary code, so I'd probably lean more BSD-ish. But EPL might be better than GPL for that goal
07:41:48 <Sgeo> (the goal that GPL has)
07:42:20 <impomatic> I like the fact the BSD license is short.
07:43:37 <Sgeo> Hmm, if Clojure, and about a million Clojure libraries, are under the EPL, does that make Clojure unsuitable for making proprietary programs?
07:43:39 <shachaf> @ask elliott Worked fine for me.
07:49:03 <impomatic> This is shorter though -> "Do What The Fuck You Want To Public License" http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl :-)
07:49:54 <Sgeo> I'm narciccistic enough to want my name attached to code I write
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07:51:46 <olsner> I strive to only write things that are useless enough that the license is irrelevant
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08:03:00 <Sgeo> My gf linked me to http://www.esecurityplanet.com/hackers/yahoo-password-breach-puts-sql-injection-in-the-crosshairs.html
08:03:31 <Sgeo> HOW DOES ANYONE IN THIS DAY AND AGE STILL BE VULNERABLE TO SQL INJECTION
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13:51:10 <mroman> Universities don't teach that.
13:58:05 <itidus21> if you invest more time and energy in security systems, the people breaking the systems will simply adapt, and find new vulnerabilities
14:01:54 <itidus21> universities aren't going to spontaneously change, students aren't going to spontaneously change, i don't forsee anything changing
14:06:44 <Jafet> Software development involves writing software to address the problems found in previous software development.
14:16:34 <FreeFull> Sgeo: Same how buffer overflows are still the most common kind of vulnerability
14:16:58 <FreeFull> Well, I guess SQL injections aren't as fundamental
14:17:23 <itidus21> i guess what im wondering is whether it is important to place blame, and also who is to blame for sql injection vulnerabilities
14:17:44 <itidus21> or is the whole system to blame
14:18:02 <FreeFull> itidus21: Clearly the people who created SQL are to blame
14:18:15 <FreeFull> How dare they invent database technology
14:18:43 <itidus21> basically i don't think blame is a perfect system, it's more like garbage collection
14:19:21 * FreeFull references itidus21 without incrementing the reference counter
14:19:59 <itidus21> its better that rubbish be centralized in landfills rather than distributed across the suburbs :D
14:20:22 <itidus21> but landfills are still a bother
14:20:57 <olsner> I think the root problem is that too many programmers just don't know or care enough about security
14:21:17 <itidus21> olsner: but what is the cause of that :D
14:21:24 <itidus21> rather, what is that a symptom of?
14:21:52 <olsner> if "everyone" cared about preventing sql injections, maybe we wouldn't let all these database apis make it so simple to create them
14:21:58 <atriq> itidus21, bad teaching
14:22:14 <itidus21> i have also noted the ugly reality that in such an arms race the bad guys will also adapt and find new ways
14:22:47 <itidus21> atriq: (im certainly trolling) what causes bad teaching?
14:23:08 <olsner> it's bad turtles all the way down
14:24:38 <itidus21> if things are allowed to have causes, or if things are allowed to be symptoms of other things, then the buck can be hard to stop
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15:49:56 <lambdabot> The operator `on' [infixl 0] of a section
15:49:56 <lambdabot> must have lower precedence than that of the operand,
15:51:03 <atriq> > ((*) `on` (+ 1)) 7 8
15:51:07 <atriq> > ((*) `on` (+ 1)) 7 3
15:51:20 <atriq> > ((*) `on` negate) 7 3
15:51:44 <atriq> Exersize: do I get to set exersizes?
15:52:10 <olsner> exersize is probably not the right spelling
15:52:33 <atriq> So the answer is "probably not"!
15:53:07 <atriq> The right to go through to your kitchen and get a biscuit?
15:53:46 <olsner> but I have no biscuits
15:54:51 <atriq> Go out to the store and buy some buscuits?
15:55:08 <atriq> Do you not want a biscuit?
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15:57:40 <olsner> I don't want to have to go and buy it myself
15:57:56 <atriq> Next time you are shopping
15:58:13 <atriq> See if you can convince the people
15:58:17 <atriq> Who sell you stuff
15:58:23 <atriq> To make me pay for the biscuit
15:59:34 <olsner> besides, the end result of buying biscuits is just running out of biscuits again
16:00:06 <atriq> But during the process of running out of biscuits
16:00:11 <atriq> You get to eat biscuits!
16:00:21 <atriq> Hexham has a biscuit store
16:03:15 <olsner> what's the difference between cookies and biscuits anyway?
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16:12:18 <atriq> Not much unless you're in the US
16:17:10 <itidus21> the best way to find out the difference between a biscuit and a cookie is to get both and compare them
16:17:48 <itidus21> you might like the one you eat first more
16:17:55 <itidus21> because it satiates your appetite
16:18:02 <itidus21> the second one is making you feel full
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16:21:07 <itidus21> but if we take away all such bias factors
16:21:43 <itidus21> one way to experience a cookie is to see it, another is to eat it
16:22:00 <itidus21> even to just look at the cookie we might be biased by which one we see first
16:27:20 <atriq> This is what large sample sizes are for
16:28:27 <itidus21> so in the limit we find the actual thing?
16:29:39 <itidus21> sorry, thats a reference to your in the limit you find douglas hofstadter
16:30:53 <itidus21> well.. i mean maybe but probably not
16:31:06 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover was partially responsible for it
16:31:18 <atriq> By partially I mean almost entirely
16:32:11 <itidus21> so are humans good at sampling?
16:37:55 <itidus21> i have at least a vague connection with this room. i don't really understand it.
16:38:11 <atriq> It's called friendship?
16:38:46 <itidus21> uh.. i'm not sure. but something else. like i had been thinking about topics which come up here.
16:39:53 <atriq> Maybe you are actually #esoteric
16:40:32 <itidus21> like i had been thinking about fairy chess, and i was fascinated by the NES, and i had a strange habit of buying foreign language dictionaries
16:41:10 <itidus21> and... i had been gradually converging on grammar and language as being important.
16:41:57 <itidus21> so i was buying up cheap books which had any relation to language
16:43:35 <itidus21> and i heard about state machines from the mugen fighting game engine
16:44:15 <itidus21> i still haven't gone back to take a closer look at it
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17:42:11 <AnotherTest> What Haskell IDE do you people use (if any)?
17:51:00 <kmc> i just have vim and ghci open in two windows
17:51:35 <kmc> haskell is potentially a great language for very clever IDEs but i haven't seen a good one
17:51:45 <kmc> i used leksah for a little while but it was buggy
17:56:05 <AnotherTest> I might try leksah and hope it's not as buggy on my system
17:57:13 <AnotherTest> although I have the impression that most buggy software is buggy invariant of the system
17:58:48 <kmc> it depends
17:58:54 <kmc> inkscape is much worse on mac than on linux
17:59:13 <kmc> it's also possible that leksah got better in the intervening time
17:59:29 <AnotherTest> well it is taking a long time to collect information about Haskell packages on my system
17:59:37 <kmc> at the risk of unfounded generalization, i think haskell appeals more to the kinds of programmers who don't typically use IDEs
17:59:56 <kmc> and to some degree this blinds people to the advantages a haskell IDE could have, compared to IDEs for other languages
18:00:26 <AnotherTest> I actually don't, but I think a good IDE can definitely be useful (which is why I want one)
18:00:36 <kmc> i would love to use something like the emacs Agda mode for Haskell
18:00:39 <nortti> kate is pretty good ide
18:00:54 <kmc> "what is the type of the expression which could go here"
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18:01:11 <kmc> "write out the pattern-matching cases for this function based on its type"
18:01:30 <kmc> "look up functions that could go here in Hayoo, add the package to my .cabal file, and import the module"
18:01:44 <kmc> http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity4997.html
18:03:18 <Sgeo> kmc, I'd feel more comfortable with lighttable for Haskell than I would for Clojure, merely because I can know that each function really is not doing side-effects
18:03:27 <Sgeo> (Unless someone's abusing unsafePerformIO)
18:07:16 <Sgeo> Then again, I don't know how difficult it might be to do a lighttable thing for Haskell
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18:41:14 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: what do you mean "there are no left turns" in Half-Broken Car in Heavy Traffic?
18:44:03 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: No I mean turning left relative to the straight direction the car only turn right no left
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18:44:21 <zzo38> It says so in the linked documentation too
18:44:24 <Arc_Koen> hum I followed the external link and then I understood
18:44:39 <Arc_Koen> my confusion comes from the difference between "go left" and "turn left"
18:45:08 <Arc_Koen> I think it would be less confusing if directions were west and east instead of left and right
18:45:48 <zzo38> I agree. Ask the people who invented that programming language.
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19:19:56 <FreeFull> zzo38: So turn right three times
19:20:15 <zzo38> FreeFull: Yes I suppose so.
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19:21:15 <zzo38> I found on Wikipedia the chord I have not learned from the book, which is the Neapolitan chord, which is a major chord on the lower second scale degree.
19:21:36 <zzo38> Which is sometimes used in place of a IV chord.
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19:23:51 <kmc> cache rules everything around me
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19:33:31 <oerjan> 15:49:55: <atriq> :t (0 $ 0 `on`)
19:33:31 <oerjan> 15:49:56: <lambdabot> The operator `on' [infixl 0] of a section
19:33:56 <oerjan> anyone making an infixl 0 operator should be hanged and quartered.
19:34:07 <oerjan> (also infix 0, naturally.)
19:35:12 <oerjan> (this does not apply to _changing_ $ into infixl 0, in which case one would swap l and r.)
19:35:53 <olsner> the conditions under which one would be hanged and quartered are getting complicated
19:37:25 <oerjan> also there should have been another precedence above the default 9, which . should have had instead.
19:37:55 <olsner> maybe the precedences should be rationals
19:38:28 <oerjan> olsner: has been suggested, at which point someone will immediately suggest a system for general partial orders.
19:38:38 <olsner> I was just about to do that too
19:39:07 <oerjan> at which someone will point out that makes it awful to combine independent libraries. (at least that's what happened a week or so ago.)
19:39:55 <oerjan> my point, otoh, is that . and $ should be considered pseudosyntax and every fixity which conflicts with their natural use is wrong.
19:41:06 <oerjan> the above `on` being one, and parsec's <?> being the other example i recall.
19:43:09 <oerjan> basically someone should have developed some guidelines before user-defined operators started proliferating, and it's really too late now.
19:43:39 <oerjan> (the applicative operators mostly being 4 rather than the same as the corresponding monadic ones is another pet peeve of mine.)
19:45:04 <zzo38> I just think this is a problem with Haskell; fixity must be integer 0 to 9, and does not allow redefinition of fixity of things defined in another file.
19:45:15 <zzo38> (They could be fixed by an extension, I suppose.)
19:45:40 <oerjan> you can redefine functions in practice if you really want to, though.
19:46:04 <oerjan> on = Data.Function.on; infixr 0 `on`
19:46:17 <zzo38> Yes that is what I thought of too
19:46:35 <zzo38> Should fixities be surreal numbers?
19:47:09 <oerjan> rationals _should_ be enough for everyone, being able to represent all countable total orders
19:48:12 <oerjan> olsner: oh the last pointing out about partial orders was that if you define fixities by their relation to other operators, those other operators have to actually be imported...
19:49:00 <oerjan> which means you get unnecessary package dependencies
19:49:02 <zzo38> That is what I thought about using surreal numbers, by defining by relation to other operators
19:50:26 <oerjan> surreal numbers presumably allow any total order, regardness of cardinality.
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19:54:35 <oerjan> the proof is sort of a generalization of the proof for rational numbers
19:55:29 <oerjan> for rational numbers, you need that between any non-interleaved finite set of rational numbers there is another one
19:55:43 <oerjan> for surreal numbers, the same is true without finiteness
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19:56:05 <oerjan> *another rational number
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19:56:59 <oerjan> because the game with left and right options the smaller and larger set represents a surreal number between them.
19:59:06 <oerjan> you also need a well-ordering (not necessarily the same order) of the totally ordered set you want to embed
20:04:59 <oerjan> well, maybe not _strictly_ need one, you can get the real numbers embedded because they're separated by rationals, and i don't think this uses the real numbers being well-orderable.
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20:06:23 <oerjan> perhaps there's a clever argument which only uses the axiom of foundation instead...
20:07:07 <oerjan> but since there's no obvious guarantee that the total order respects set rank, i won't bet on it.
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20:23:05 * shachaf can't figure out what kmc's attitude toward C++ really is.
20:23:09 <shachaf> I suspect there's more than one attitude.
20:26:17 <oerjan> @tell Arc_Koen I think that your ocaml Brainfunct interpreter always treats @ with an undefined function (including 0, but not for >= 50) as using an empty function, is this intended behavior? (It's more useful than crashing anyway, as my haskell one does and as yours does for values >= 50)
20:26:43 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:26:56 <oerjan> what about for values >= 50, ideally?
20:27:24 <Arc_Koen> ideally I guess the tape and the functions are unbounded
20:27:26 <oerjan> ok. i'll modify my haskell one.
20:27:41 <oerjan> my tape is already unbounded since it uses the zipper trick
20:28:12 <oerjan> (as well as haskell's infinite lists, but that just makes it slightly easier)
20:28:27 <Arc_Koen> I'm still trying to figure out why my interpreter ends on Stack_overflow on a tail-recursive loop
20:29:14 <oerjan> well your for loop comment seems correct to me, as it makes the '@' case not be in a tail position
20:29:35 <Arc_Koen> I mean, if the @ call is the last command in a function, the interpreter should reflect that
20:30:02 <Arc_Koen> I modified my program to have the last command out of the for loop
20:30:07 <kmc> shachaf: i've said it more than a few times
20:30:13 <oerjan> oh, you did not include that on the wiki
20:30:26 <Arc_Koen> well it did not work as intended so I did not edit
20:30:33 <kmc> i think C++ is a bad language, which is bad in almost the opposite way that languages are usually bad
20:30:36 <shachaf> akmc: It's basically a bad language, but it's interesting because it's bad in an opposite way to other languages?
20:30:57 <kmc> and despite being a bad language, it is sometimes the right tool
20:31:15 <Arc_Koen> the other modification I haven't put on the wiki page is | ',' -> tape.(!ptr) <- (try int_of_char (input_char stdin) with | End_of_file -> -1)
20:31:54 <Arc_Koen> but using that in the cat program would make it way more complicated
20:32:22 <kmc> it's also interesting just because it has lots of things that other languages don't
20:32:59 <Arc_Koen> (the simple, current version would try printing -1 as ascii so it would result in an error anyway)
20:33:28 <kmc> in my categorization of programming languages, C++ is practically the only language in its niche
20:36:13 <kmc> C++ has an elegance and internal consistency which is lost on most of its users
20:36:26 <kmc> because they mostly program in a hodge-podge of C and C++
20:36:44 <kmc> the reason they do that is that C++'s internal consistency isn't so much externally consistent with the real world
20:37:17 <kmc> also it's just very fun to write C++ in small doses and try to do excessively clever things
20:37:26 <kmc> which is one reason i call it an esolang
20:37:33 <shachaf> That's true about most languages, isn't it?
20:37:34 <kmc> and now you know
20:37:40 <kmc> how i feel about C++
20:37:48 <kmc> i hope you will use this knowledge for good and not evil
20:38:01 <shachaf> kmc: Did I ever ask you again about the stream-cipher-for-disk-encryption thing?
20:38:24 <kmc> shachaf: well, some languages try to limit the amount of cleverness you can use
20:38:39 <kmc> and others are just a mess such that clever things never really seem elegant
20:39:06 <kmc> C++ and Haskell are very similar in my mind
20:39:16 <kmc> ignoring the technical details of each language, and focusing on these kinds of factors
20:39:31 <kmc> now there's a statement which is bound to upset almost everyone ;)
20:39:47 <kmc> but i promise i'm not trolling, i really do think C++ and Haskell are very similar on this level
20:40:48 <kmc> why did you go to los angeles
20:42:46 <kmc> ooh, did you get to ride the Expo Line?
20:43:19 <shachaf> I hear lexande_ was in a train the other day.
20:43:33 <kmc> well it's just another light rail line
20:43:37 <kmc> but it opened since i was last in LA, is all
20:44:53 <shachaf> I know someone who I thought was in Pasadena now but it looks like not yet.
20:45:38 <itidus21> 99% of commercial software does not require a turing complete platform
20:45:48 <itidus21> i don't know if i am using words entirely wrong here
20:46:03 <pikhq> itidus21: 100% does not.
20:46:07 <pikhq> Because computers are not TC.
20:46:09 <itidus21> i have a vague idea what i meant
20:46:30 <shachaf> kmc: My impressions of Los Angeles so far are "I wouldn't want to live here".
20:47:10 <itidus21> pikhq: its gonna be brutal figuring out what i actually meant. im gonna make a coffee first. and then cause a lot of facepalms
20:47:57 <kmc> grocery store, bbl
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20:53:12 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: http://sprunge.us/SRFA?ocaml
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21:03:20 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i think +>,++++@<@/----.<-@/</>+@ should work although winghci doesn't have an easy way to test EOF's and i cannot be bothered to use a real command line
21:03:35 <oerjan> (it works for the basic catting, anyway)
21:05:47 <oerjan> hm i can simply add a similar test for newline, i think
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21:08:01 <oerjan> dammit it also has trouble resetting stdin
21:08:27 <oerjan> fortunatelly :r fixed that
21:09:12 <Arc_Koen> it raises invalid_argument "index out of bound" even though I set n_functions to 256... I'm head-computing what it does and it looks like it should be working
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21:10:40 <oerjan> oh wait i know my problem
21:11:56 <Arc_Koen> ohohoho wait I think my interpreter is sooooo broken
21:12:33 <oerjan> now it worked, my fix for making undefined functions empty had a bug that made <= 0 give function 1 instead :)
21:13:07 <Arc_Koen> for one moment I thought my interpreter never returned from function calls
21:13:40 <oerjan> well i managed to get a cat that quits on newline with +>,++++@<@/->----.<@/<///////////</>+@
21:14:11 <oerjan> (it should also quit on EOF, but it's too awkward to test in winghci)
21:15:07 <Arc_Koen> still doesn't work with my interpreter, but I'm pretty sure the error comes from the interpreter
21:15:26 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: it shouldn't ever run functions that large if you give it plain ASCII, anyway
21:15:43 <oerjan> it just adds 4 after all
21:19:31 <Arc_Koen> well I won't try to debug my interpreter tonight, that'll wait for another day
21:21:41 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: er your - is wrong :)
21:22:05 <Arc_Koen> I think that's the most stupidest error i've ever had in a program
21:22:19 <oerjan> the only command none of your previous programs tested, i think :P
21:23:34 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: hey don't worry, i almost managed to get + and - include an automatic > because i put the new value in the wrong zipper list
21:23:52 <oerjan> because i had simply copied and pasted the code for > to modify
21:24:40 <oerjan> does the new cat work now?
21:26:32 <Arc_Koen> one sec - the invalid argument thing simply came from the program trying to read exactly one more command than there were characters in the current function
21:26:46 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: your code looks tail recursive to me
21:27:12 <Arc_Koen> there was a stupid -1 / +1 error in the loop
21:27:45 <Arc_Koen> (so the for loop still did everything, and the step after the loop tried to read an imaginary command
21:28:26 <oerjan> itidus21: i don't think any of our interpreters use 8-bit cells
21:28:47 <oerjan> mine uses Int, although it would be a simple substitution to use unbounded Integer
21:28:48 <Arc_Koen> urrh, still an error somewhere
21:32:40 * oerjan convinces himself that runs the right commands in a function
21:33:23 <Arc_Koen> | x -> raise (Unknown_command x) is kind of ridiculous since all brainfuck specifications seem to agree that unknown characters are no-ops that can be used for comments
21:34:05 <oerjan> i allowed whitespace but nothing else
21:34:46 <Arc_Koen> I just added that line without further thinking when the compiler told me "warning: non-exhaustive pattern matching"
21:40:18 <oerjan> i don't see anything obviously wrong with your last paste
21:43:29 <Arc_Koen> well I'll add a lot of print_string to see where the index out of bounds come from
21:44:39 <Arc_Koen> oh and I found http://esolangs.org/wiki/BrainCursion should I add a "see also" link or something?
21:45:41 <itidus21> its about this point where i remember that #esoteric is actually discussing brainfuck and thus most rational comments do not apply
21:46:11 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i don't think they're that similar
21:46:24 <itidus21> because, brainfuck programmers are a mythical entity
21:46:28 <oerjan> beyond both being brainfuck derivatives
21:46:37 <Arc_Koen> itidus: a friend showed me a link to someone who has implemented brainfuck in SpaceChem... now *that* is mythical
21:47:06 <itidus21> well.. the uh.. consumer of brainfuck interpreters is the mythical part :P
21:47:21 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: well my motivation for making brainfunct was "wait is it so that among all the brainfuck derivatives, the obvious functional version is missing?"
21:47:55 <Arc_Koen> and braincursion seems to be claiming more or less the same thing, even though I haven't really understood what was its point :p
21:48:30 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: not really, it can only jump to the matching ( or ) i think
21:48:31 <itidus21> i guess what i am saying is not quite true considering that people make interpreters in brainfuck
21:48:39 <itidus21> its a great interpreter writing language
21:50:37 <itidus21> i got x and y axis confused on esointerpreters
21:51:20 <oerjan> hm it doesn't even do matching, if the interpreter is to be believed
21:51:26 <Arc_Koen> hmmmmmm does braincursion support nested loops correctly?
21:53:03 <itidus21> basically i think all the brainfuck programs that are going to be written have been written
21:53:28 <itidus21> so, the hypothetical end user of a brainfuck interpreter is just a useful uhhh
21:53:32 <oerjan> however this directly contradicts the computational class section of the article
21:54:29 <Arc_Koen> well that sections links to "reduction", in which it is said "be careful with the arbitrary thing at the arbitrary moment!!!" which is not respected by the loop emulation in braincursion
21:54:54 <oerjan> @tell spirity Did you mean for loops in BrainCursion to nest properly? The interpreter doesn't.
21:55:29 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: according to the description of the language it doesn't either
21:55:39 <Arc_Koen> (at least not in such an easy way)
21:56:00 <oerjan> @tell spirity The description seems to imply they shouldn't, while the computational class section makes no sense if they don't.
21:57:40 <oerjan> no, spirity and Seven Inch Bread is
21:58:14 <oerjan> the computational class comment is older than the interpreter, at least
21:58:57 <oerjan> in fact it's by the original article author. which is an IP, so may or may not be the same as the language author, but most likely is.
21:59:25 <oerjan> btw i hesitate to call the loops described "recursive".
21:59:52 <Arc_Koen> yup that's what I did not really understand
22:00:21 <oerjan> so no matter how you slice it, it's not very similar to Brainfunct.
22:00:41 <Arc_Koen> anyway, "recursive" wouldn't mean much if it's still and explicit loop
22:01:39 <Arc_Koen> I remember when I had programming exercises to do at the university and it was explicitly said "this algorithm must be written in an imperative way" I often "cheated" by emulating recursion using a stack
22:05:08 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: btw as a conoisseur of TC proofs, i find the phrase "arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point" and even the entire Reduction section _far_ too imprecise (and don't actually describe the technical meaning of reduction.)
22:06:14 <oerjan> *connoisseur dammit :P
22:06:39 <Arc_Koen> it took me a while to understand what they meant with "arbitrary effect at an arbitrary point", and what's said about reduction basically is "reduction is a good way to prove a language TC except sometimes it's not a proof at all"
22:07:09 <oerjan> real reduction is definitely a proof, but you have to apply to an entire program (sometimes including the I/O)
22:07:17 <Arc_Koen> (the french word actually is "connaisseur" with an a :p)
22:07:53 <oerjan> "A connoisseur (French traditional (pre-1835) spelling of connaisseur"
22:08:03 <oerjan> so it's not wrong to use it in english, by tradition
22:08:28 <Arc_Koen> I know but it does sound weird when the reader is french :p
22:10:10 <Arc_Koen> (well, I didn't know where the o came from. I thought it was just an original misspelling.)
22:12:14 <Arc_Koen> (or something similar to "rendezvous" being written as a single word)
22:12:34 <oerjan> well sometimes you can reduce each instruction separately, when the language's have essentially identical semantics for how sequences of instructions are combined.
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23:04:53 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: but then it's basically the same thing as writing a compiler from the TC language to the new language isn't it?
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23:38:10 <kmc> is any modern C compiler going to object to non-ASCII UTF-8-encoded characters in a multiline comment?
23:38:37 <kmc> i figure, even if it decodes them as 8-bit characters, it will be fine because they will not match "*/" as encoded in the ISO 646 invariant set
23:38:46 <zzo38> Since it won't contain the ASCII */ then probably it will work OK.
23:39:14 <zzo38> (If you need to actually use the */ in the comment then use the overlong encodings)
23:40:23 <zzo38> Overlong encodings are not really valid UTF-8 but use it anyways if you need to.
23:41:50 <FreeFull> They're alternate encodings for the charaters U+00 to U+7F
23:42:54 <kmc> you prepend some bytes which encode zeros
23:43:32 <pikhq> kmc: It should "just work" regardless.
23:43:33 <kmc> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/michael_howard/archive/2008/08/22/overlong-utf-8-escapes-bite.aspx
23:44:45 <pikhq> kmc: The beauty of UTF-8 is that you'll never get valid ASCII out of it except when it's the chunk mapping to ASCII... So you'd have to really work to break on UTF-8 there.
23:44:47 <zzo38> If you are using UTF-8, another thing you could do if you want */ in a C comment is to put a zero-width space between.
23:45:05 <kmc> do zero-width spaces work in fixed-with fonts?
23:45:11 <kmc> are they like a no-op combining character?
23:45:26 <oerjan> they work in irssi anyway
23:45:49 <zzo38> They are supposed to have zero width; in PuTTY on my computer it displays a replacement box even though it does not advance the cursor.
23:46:43 <zzo38> So in that example, it appears on my computer the zero-width space replacement box overlapping the colon.
23:47:18 <zzo38> (And for some reason it is gray rather than blue; this may be a bug in PuTTY)
23:47:44 <FreeFull> Maybe your font still needs to have the empty character set for the zero-width space to work correctly
23:47:48 <zzo38> FreeFull: The colon before the IRC message. (The syntax of IRC require a colon to indicate long parameter that may contain spaces)
23:48:06 <FreeFull> zzo38: What, you don't use an IRC client?
23:48:22 <zzo38> FreeFull: I do use an IRC client. But probably not the same one you used.
23:48:47 <pikhq> Isn't your IRC client more a syntax-highlighting IRC protocol displayer?
23:49:17 <FreeFull> I mostly use irssi, because the irc client I wrote myself isn't that good =P
23:49:40 <kmc> i think someone should package GNU/Linux, Mosh, screen, and irssi as an EC2 AMI
23:49:49 <kmc> to make it super easy to set up persistent IRC in The Cloud
23:50:02 <kmc> there is also https://irccloud.com/ but i heard it is slow
23:50:03 <pikhq> I'd be tempted to, except I just got my Internet stable.
23:50:11 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes mostly those are what it does; although it has other features too.
23:51:49 <kmc> FreeFull: mosh.mit.edu
23:51:53 <kmc> screen, tmux, whatever
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23:59:45 <kmc> ISO C allows "int main() { ... }", right?
23:59:57 <kmc> (with no parameters)
00:01:34 <pikhq> For a function definition, int main() is identical to int main(void), which is explicitly permitted.
00:02:08 <pikhq> ISO C also *permits* non-specified types for main, IIRC.
00:02:54 <kmc> ghci allows Unicode line-drawing characters as operator names
00:04:31 <kmc> > let (┌────────┐┌─────────────────┐┌────────┐) = (+) in 2 ┌────────┐┌─────────────────┐┌────────┐ 3
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00:13:43 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `)'
00:14:19 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `+'
00:32:07 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `('
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00:38:36 <oerjan> there is no way to use `` on anything but an alphanumeric identifier, alas
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00:44:09 <fizzie> Oh, hello from Portland, Oregon.
00:44:14 <kmc> is there not a good lint for C anymore?
00:44:17 <kmc> splint doesn't support C99...
00:44:21 <fizzie> Time zones are kinda weird.
00:44:34 <kmc> HELLO FROM THE FUTURE
00:45:00 <oerjan> portland, oregon, isn't that were Gregor is
00:45:18 <fizzie> Gregor at least has been here, since he spoke of the food in here.
00:45:44 <oerjan> i guess he may be the kind of person who does moving and stuff.
00:47:09 <oerjan> HELLO FUTURE GOOD TO SEE YOU ARE STILL ALIVE
00:49:04 <fizzie> Woke up at 3am to catch the flight from Helsinki, and it's now 3:49am the next day in Finland, but here it's supposedly still Saturday, and it's just getting to be 6pm.
00:50:25 <fizzie> Also I am apparently faster than my bags, since I managed to catch the Seattle-Oregon transfer (even with baggage claim + customs + baggage recheck + security check in the way) with 10 minutes to spare, but my bag didn't; it took the next Seattle-Portland flight (an hour later).
00:51:06 <fizzie> Turns out there was a direct AMS-PDX flight leaving ten minutes before my AMS-SEA, too; I'm a bit confused why they didn't book that for me. I guess this must've been cheaper. (Or maybe I was late.)
00:51:17 <fizzie> Seattle-Portland transfer, I mean.
00:51:43 <fizzie> Travel is all so confusing. I think I'll go buy stuff. ->
01:21:49 <Gregor> fizzie: Almost assuredly price is the reason.
01:22:40 <kmc> who was booking it for you?
01:22:49 <Gregor> Direct flights are expensive. To the point that a flight from A to B is usually more expensive than a flight from A to C with a layover at B.
01:24:49 <kmc> i don't think that's usually the case
01:24:53 <kmc> it is occasionally the case
01:27:08 <kmc> people on flyertalk seem to think that a) it's rarely the case, and b) airlines don't try very hard to keep you from just leaving the airport at B
01:27:11 <kmc> http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travelbuzz/1349573-intentionally-miss-connection.html
01:28:19 <kmc> expect the rest of your ticket to get cancelled and your checked luggage to get routed to /dev/null
01:28:48 <Gregor> The checked baggage is an issue.
01:28:57 <kmc> ah apparently the insider term for this is "hidden city ticketing"
01:29:44 <Gregor> Anyway, I know that it's frequently the case with A=IND, B=ORD.
01:30:00 <kmc> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/magazine/mag-08subversion-t.html
01:30:02 <Gregor> Err, wait, that's a slightly different case, but same idea. Buying A->B->C to get B->C
01:30:26 <Gregor> e.g. a flight from IND->SFO via ORD is $159, but a direct from ORD->SFO is $210
01:30:44 <kmc> yeah, i see
01:30:56 <Gregor> The SAME direct, mind you :)
01:31:35 <Gregor> Anyway, your destination probably needs to be a major hub for that to work.
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01:32:08 <kmc> yeah, it works when your desired route is a near-monopoly
01:33:24 <kmc> oh, haha, this column is by nate silver
01:33:26 <kmc> didn't even notice
01:35:13 <kmc> checked baggage is best avoided, anyway :)
01:39:17 <kmc> Gregor: what dates were those flights on?
01:39:40 <kmc> i would expect ORD-SFO to be reasonably competitive
01:40:35 <kmc> a search on Oct 16 finds AA, UA, VX, DL, US all $140 or less
01:40:37 <kmc> mostly non-stop
01:41:21 <kmc> one time i flew DSM-DEN-SFO-LAX which was pretty silly
01:45:24 <kmc> i think the shortest commercial flight segment I ever took was MSN to MKE
01:45:51 <kmc> unplanned; another plane had crash-landed at Milwaukee and they diverted us to Madison temporarily
01:58:48 * pikhq has had it cheaper to fly out of COS rather than DEN before...
01:59:05 <pikhq> Keep in mind the flight from COS was a short connecting jump to DEN.
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02:03:51 <fizzie> We have a university-wide quasi-exclusive thing about booking all air traffic via a particular Finnish travel agency.
02:04:22 <fizzie> They sent me four suggestions sorted by price and I chose the least annoying-looking one.
02:04:39 <fizzie> (It has a direct PDX-AMS flight on the way back home.)
02:19:31 <Gregor> kmc: I was looking on the 15th, a Saturday.
02:19:45 <Gregor> kmc: And also, direct flight.
02:20:25 <Gregor> And I just did THE SAME EXACT SEARCH, but now there are tickets for half the price X-D
02:21:14 <kmc> having prices that go up and back down makes sense
02:21:23 <kmc> from a business perspective
02:21:51 <kmc> i can't really fault them for that, even if it is annoying to the consumer
02:23:04 <kmc> Bing Travel (formerly Farecast) will attempt to predict whether the price is going to go up or down
02:24:35 <Gregor> Yeah, I'm quite accustomed to this nonsense.
02:24:42 <Gregor> Luckily I never have to pay for my tickets ^^
02:26:54 <itidus21> height scares the hell out of me
02:27:14 <itidus21> i think i would rather not travel at all..
02:27:23 <itidus21> the spacial world in general scares me
02:28:03 <fizzie> Feels weird just to swipe a credit card everywhere; at home we always stick them halfway in and then key in a PIN code. Or if not PINning, then at least sign a piece of paper.
02:32:04 <itidus21> i feel important with my debit card :3
02:33:47 <oerjan> height scares the hell out of me, but not on planes fortunetely
02:35:05 <kmc> every part of flying sucks except the part where you're actually in the air
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02:44:43 <fizzie> oerjan: KLM's in-flight magazine had a multi-page feature about Trondheim.
02:49:44 <itidus21> it was easier when i was younger, long bus rides
02:49:56 <itidus21> i was interested in the technological expansion
02:50:09 <itidus21> in the projects people were working on
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02:51:05 <itidus21> i remember the best busride ever was one long trip back from a camp when i was discussing video games with my friend
02:51:39 <itidus21> he told me his dad knew something about some video game console supiter jupiter
02:52:02 <itidus21> considering that sega had saturn and neptune, i have to wonder if it was actually a real thing
02:53:16 * oerjan thinks of the jupiter ace, but you're too young for that
02:53:53 <Sgeo> oerjan, itidus21 isn't saying he used it himself.
02:54:50 <oerjan> apparently http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_32X was initially supposed to be called jupiter
02:56:15 <itidus21> this bustrip may have been in 1992...
02:57:14 <oerjan> apparently saturn is pronounced Satān in japanese...
02:57:15 <itidus21> but i started secondary college in 1994 and it was a primary school camp
02:57:36 <itidus21> so mr satan in dbz might be mr saturn?
02:57:40 <pikhq> Which sounds absolutely nothing like English "satan".
02:58:09 <oerjan> but does it sound like "satan" in most european languages _other_ than english?
02:58:32 <pikhq> oerjan: sahtahn would be a rough approximation of the sound of it...
02:59:02 <pikhq> itidus21: Nah, it's definitely supposed to be Mr. Satan there.
02:59:10 <itidus21> " In 2009, his real name was revealed to be Mark (マーク Māku?), which is a pun on the word "Akuma", meaning "devil/demon" in Japanese. "
02:59:18 <oerjan> so basically it sounds like when norwegians are swearing _particularly_ forcefully. got it.
03:00:19 <pikhq> Japanese long vowels (denoted by that mark over the vowel) aren't different vowels, they are just literally pronounced longer.
03:01:12 <oerjan> i thought you meant the ah's to represent long a's
03:01:32 <pikhq> oerjan: I was saying "sahtahn" to approximate the sound in English phonology.
03:01:46 <pikhq> And then commented that a Japanese long a is just a longer Japanese a.
03:01:52 <pikhq> itidus21: Yes, they are pronounced twice as long as a normal vowel.
03:01:59 <pikhq> itidus21: Two morae instead of one.
03:02:28 <itidus21> the topic in here is so sensitive to my random comments..
03:02:36 <oerjan> that's good, same in norwegian (while swedish has a bigger difference...)
03:03:13 <itidus21> which is not good because i just dont actually do esolangs
03:03:18 <oerjan> for long vs. short a that is
03:03:54 <itidus21> i feel like my presence here is killing the channel...
03:04:27 <pikhq> itidus21: We mostly don't esolang here anyways.
03:04:35 <pikhq> It's not you, it's the common trend.
03:04:44 <pikhq> And predates you, I'm pretty sure.
03:04:45 <itidus21> so many major projects have formed in the history of #esoteric
03:04:51 <oerjan> there's been more than usual esolanging lately
03:05:13 <oerjan> still not a majority conversation
03:05:19 <itidus21> the eso lang wiki itself, codu, hackego, fungot, the logs, the quotes
03:05:20 <fungot> itidus21: ok. the errors are just when installing the launcher
03:06:40 <itidus21> i simply don't contribute to such things
03:07:06 <oerjan> however, no one was really talking when you started the topic
03:08:03 <oerjan> and japanese and linguistics have been discussed here long before you joined
03:08:46 <oerjan> maybe since pikhq started learning it
03:09:05 <pikhq> Which, IIRC, was actually a little *before* I joined this channel, actually.
03:09:12 <pikhq> Though I sucked then.
03:10:04 <itidus21> i was interested in japanese for quite a while...
03:10:09 <oerjan> well i vaguely recall japanese have sucking vowels
03:10:31 <itidus21> i see the japanese as an example of how interesting a foreign culture can be
03:10:41 <oerjan> or is it just unvoiced ones
03:10:58 <itidus21> its.. basically i see the whole world is turning to crap
03:11:17 <itidus21> a lot of absurd ideals being sought
03:11:24 <pikhq> The vowels are IPA /a/ /i/ /u/ /e/ /o/.
03:11:33 <itidus21> the humanity is being drained away
03:12:56 <itidus21> i mean for example... colonization kills cultures
03:13:28 <itidus21> the most warhungry cultures expand the farthest
03:17:20 <itidus21> what i mean to say is, all the interesting aspects of japanese culture are a result of it's long term isolation
03:19:17 <itidus21> when cultures are concentrated and left alone to their own devices, things go better
03:21:46 <itidus21> ahhhh my mom is so loud on the phone
03:21:58 <itidus21> trying to block it out with music and headphones
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03:39:05 <zzo38> I am writing the rules for a game called "Sorcery Card". There are 24 ways to play.
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04:57:45 <kmc> > let (×) = (*) in 2 × 3
04:58:17 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
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05:05:15 <augur> ket (*) = (x) in 2 * 3
05:05:21 <augur> > let (*) = (x) in 2 * 3
05:05:22 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `t1 -> t2 -> t'
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05:24:41 <soundnfury> Gah! Blakeyrat is a total moron amirite?
05:27:36 * soundnfury is reading his "The Linux CLI sucks" thread
05:27:54 <soundnfury> and he keeps saying incredibly idiotic things
05:28:29 <pikhq> What about it sucks?
05:28:48 <soundnfury> http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/p/26646/302986.aspx
05:28:58 <zzo38> The Linux CLI is good. In my opinion, he is very wrong.
05:29:09 <zzo38> I have recently written some music yesterday and today.
05:30:45 <zzo38> soundnfury: http://2a03.free.fr/?p=pub&dir=zzo38 kind of music. (The zzo38_2 is the recent one; read 00README.txt for information)
05:31:52 <zzo38> You will need NES/Famicom emulator (or a hardware NSF player) in order to play it.
05:33:00 <soundnfury> but I'll bookmark it in case my arsedness coefficient increases later
05:33:52 <zzo38> If you want to modify it, that is OK with me.
05:36:14 <soundnfury> Unlikely; I know shit all about the Famicom
05:36:42 <soundnfury> Dunno even what cpu the Famicom has. Is it 6502?
05:37:21 <zzo38> Yes, except it lacks decimal mode.
05:38:14 <zzo38> (You can still set and clear decimal mode, and if the flags are pushed on the stack it will still specify if it is set or not, but it won't affect the operation of addition and so on.)
05:38:39 <soundnfury> heh, the Z80 doesn't have a decimal mode. It just has N and H flags and a magic "DAA" instruction
05:39:00 <soundnfury> which, btw, is a pig to implement in an emulator
05:39:43 <kmc> do { bonghits } while (0);
05:40:31 <kmc> it's an idiom for C macros
05:40:52 <soundnfury> isn't that just equivalent to { bonghits }? (Brackets retained for scoping-ism)
05:40:54 <kmc> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/257418/do-while-0-what-is-it-good-for
05:40:55 <zzo38> When I learned of that I now do sometimes use do { ... } while(0) in a C macro.
05:41:31 <soundnfury> Do! While! 0! Good gods, y'all! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing!
05:42:31 <kmc> the second answer is actually a totally different use of do { ... } while (0)
05:42:39 <kmc> which i don't think i've seen in actual code
05:43:34 <zzo38> O, yes, that is another use, if you do not want to name a label.
05:44:06 <soundnfury> Frankly, if something you want to do takes multiple statements to achieve, I don't think it should be a macro.
05:44:15 <kmc> that is an idiotic viewpoint
05:44:37 <kmc> many uses of macros cannot be written as inline functions
05:44:38 <zzo38> No, there are some things that macros will do better.
05:44:48 <zzo38> But some things are better with inline functions.
05:44:58 <kmc> for example if it needs access to the scope or the control flow (return etc) at the call site
05:45:18 <kmc> longer macros represent a greater savings of duplicated code
05:45:45 <kmc> zzo38: I think I would rather use 'goto' instead of do { ... break; ... } while (0);
05:46:07 <soundnfury> kmc: well if you need that then your control flow is excessively baroque and obtuse
05:46:21 <Jafet> goto is unstructured, you savage
05:46:36 <kmc> yeah guys i heard goto is considered harmful so let's write really ugly weird code to avoid it
05:46:43 <kmc> soundnfury: you're just wrong
05:46:44 <soundnfury> Jafet: goto is fine, put the raptors away
05:46:45 <Jafet> C is excessively baroque and obtuse
05:46:47 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, you can use goto there; unless you don't want a label, or if there are other purposes having to do with macros that you need this break
05:46:57 <soundnfury> kmc: wow, what a reasoned and convincing argument
05:47:01 <zzo38> For example if use many times in a macro and you don't want duplicate label names
05:47:07 <shachaf> Hmm, mosh doesn't do color prediction.
05:47:07 <soundnfury> "you're just wrong". I'll have to remember that one.
05:47:13 <kmc> soundnfury: i can't argue against you because you aren't presenting any argument
05:47:16 <pikhq> soundnfury: Errors are baroque and obtuse control flow.
05:47:18 <zzo38> But I too would usually use goto in this case.
05:47:21 <shachaf> Editing a file with syntax highlighting over a slow connection is funny.
05:47:38 <Jafet> I think he's arguing that he's correct.
05:48:12 <soundnfury> kmc: I'm arguing that 'doing clever things with macros' encourages you to write code so clever you can't maintain it
05:48:25 <kmc> yes, you can go overboard with macros
05:48:35 <kmc> on the other hand, you can make things much nicer if you use them right
05:48:50 <kmc> but "only one statement per macro" is not a suitable guideline
05:49:18 <soundnfury> Well, we'll just have to respectfully disagree there
05:49:32 <kmc> right then
05:49:38 <Jafet> Using macros to write multiple statements is not particularly virtuosic
05:49:55 <Jafet> A lot of library plumbing is done that way
05:54:47 <Jafet> By the way, using ewd rhetoric has about the same effect on people as if you went around riding fixies
05:54:51 <zzo38> I think C macros is useful, although a bit weak.
05:55:24 <kmc> soundnfury: I count over 4000 uses of the "do { ... } while (0)" trick in the Linux kernel codebase
05:55:37 <kmc> I'm not holding up Linux as the be-all standard of a beautiful C program
05:55:51 <kmc> but it's a huge codebase worked on by a lot of very smart people
05:55:56 <kmc> and apparently a number of them disagree with you ;P
05:56:16 <Jafet> \E x. x \in C && pretty x?
05:56:42 <soundnfury> Well, I'm not surprised. There's no One True Brace Style, either, but we're still allowed to hold opinions on which is best
05:57:02 <kmc> yeah but allow me some skepticism if you claim that my brace style is "baroque and obtuse"
05:57:02 <soundnfury> and it's my /opinion/ that "do { ... } while (0)" is Considered Harmful
05:57:17 <kmc> if that's an arbitrary aesthetic judgement on your part, then fine
05:57:21 <zzo38> Yes; and you can program using the brace style you prefer.
05:57:25 <kmc> i agree that the need for this extra while loop is ugly
05:57:27 <soundnfury> A brace style could be baroque and obtuse...
05:57:31 <kmc> but it is the solution to a problem which needs solving
05:57:33 <zzo38> (In Haskell you can even omit the braces if you prefer.)
05:57:53 <soundnfury> I'd say that's pretty obtuse, but it's valid C so what the fuck, do what you like
05:58:10 <zzo38> soundnfury: Yes, do what you like. I don't like that brace style either but use if you want to.
05:58:38 <kmc> when you started this conversation you really did not seem to be describing an aesthetic preference
05:59:16 <zzo38> If you hate this style then don't use it.
05:59:39 <kmc> soundnfury: your rule about macros is fundamentally unlike a brace style question because I can rewrite any code to use whatever brace style you prefer, but there are many macros I fundamentally can't write with only one statement!
05:59:54 <kmc> you are limiting the expressiveness of code and not merely imposing an aesthetic rule
06:00:01 <zzo38> do { ... } while(0) is one statement, though.
06:00:37 <kmc> another reason to prefer macros over inline functions in C is that macros can be type-generic
06:01:03 <kmc> the same macro can work on float or int, or it can work on every struct with a field of some particular name
06:01:10 <zzo38> kmc: Yes they can; there are other things you can do with macros too, though; not only those things!
06:01:18 <kmc> again reducing code duplication, and making things clearer if used tastefully
06:01:26 <zzo38> But those are some of the things done, and I have done things like that too.
06:01:34 <zzo38> Some things better with functions, though.
06:01:44 <kmc> you have to consider each circumstance
06:01:56 <kmc> which is why blanket rules like "goto is bad!" or "multi-statement macros are bad!" are bad
06:02:15 <kmc> i do think that all else being equal, a multi-statement macro should get more scrutiny
06:02:20 <kmc> in terms of "am i being too clever"
06:02:26 <zzo38> I agree; goto is not bad, and macros is not bad, etc
06:02:34 <lambdabot> ksf says: There's always going to be cases where good programs are rejected. But those who abandon close scrutiny for the sake of ease have earned neither ease nor maintainable programs.
06:02:34 <kmc> one thing that was kind of hard for me to accept is that sometimes, the best way really is just to duplicate some code
06:04:45 <Jafet> We are discussing the harmfulness of common C idioms
06:04:48 <zzo38> Sometimes that may be the case.
06:05:05 <zzo38> But sometimes macro is better at least my opinion.
06:05:08 <kmc> Linux programmers seem to have gone a bit overboard with this idiom
06:05:16 <kmc> do { current->hardirq_context++; } while (0)
06:05:23 <kmc> there's no need for it here, right?
06:05:33 <zzo38> In that case it would certainly seem you don't need it.
06:05:50 <kmc> maybe it catches some cases of misuse better
06:05:56 <kmc> prevents you from using that expression as an expression
06:06:08 <zzo38> Yes that is one possibility.
06:06:21 <Jafet> Actually, every macro that expands to a statement is placed in do { _ } while(0)
06:06:31 <Jafet> There is some reason for it
06:06:39 <soundnfury> kmc: couldn't you do that with ((void)(current->hardirq_context++)), or am I mistaken?
06:06:57 <kmc> soundnfury: here is a pretty good one:
06:07:02 <soundnfury> (Of course, you could still use it in an expression, but not any expr you'd be likely to write)
06:07:11 <kmc> #define might_sleep() do { __might_sleep(__FILE__, __LINE__, 0); might_resched(); } while (0)
06:07:17 <shachaf> kmc: Consistency can be a reasonable goal in itself.
06:07:30 <kmc> shachaf: yeah
06:07:39 <shachaf> As long as you have to resort to code duplication, it's probably better to have the same pattern everywhere.
06:07:43 <shachaf> People are pretty good at patterns.
06:08:05 <kmc> it makes it more likely they will DTRT when they add a second statement to your macro
06:08:07 <zzo38> I think they should allow return from a void function to have an expression of a void function call optionally in order to specify tail call hint for the compiler.
06:09:04 <zzo38> (But, they don't allow that.)
06:09:54 <shachaf> C ought to have void values.
06:09:58 <Jafet> I'm pretty sure gcc ignores almost all voodoo constructs that programmers throw in to hint at optimizations
06:10:02 <shachaf> Well, they would be much more useful in C++ than in C.
06:10:19 <zzo38> Then they should allow in C++ as well.
06:10:49 <shachaf> Justification: template <typename res_t>res_t foo(...) { struct { res_t res; run() { res = ...; } s; ...; return s.res; }
06:11:10 <Jafet> You can probably specialize a template on void.
06:11:20 <shachaf> But then you have to write the code twice.
06:11:43 <kmc> i wonder if gcc has rules specifically to detect silly tricks people do and turn them into code that's actually good on modern machines
06:11:52 <shachaf> zzo38: GCC does allow that, and I've used that idiom in one case.
06:12:05 <Jafet> You need to specialize templates anyway, because your template probably won't all work the same way for rvalue-refs, lvalues, lvalue-refs, lvalue-const-refs, pointers, or the new atomic types
06:12:07 <shachaf> Not to specify an optimization hint, just to make things clearer.
06:12:29 <zzo38> shachaf: They do? Do other compilers supporting GNU89 (such as Clang) supports that?
06:12:52 <Jafet> kmc: it probably happens as special cases of some optimizer passes
06:13:33 <shachaf> zzo38: Yes, it works in Clang too.
06:13:51 <zzo38> Are there any other compilers supporting GNU extensions?
06:14:05 <kmc> icc supports some
06:14:26 <kmc> i think some GNU extensions are very widely supported
06:14:30 <kmc> for example // comments in c89 mode
06:14:48 <Jafet> icc uses edison's parser
06:15:06 <shachaf> Calling that a GNU extension is a bit strange.
06:15:09 <Jafet> Presumably edg implements common extensions
06:15:16 <kmc> it's... a extension supported by gnu
06:15:31 <kmc> Jafet: most of them can't be removed at the parsing stage, though
06:15:41 <shachaf> kmc: gcc doesn't support // comments in c89 mode, actually.
06:15:45 <shachaf> It supports them in gnu89 mode.
06:15:48 <Jafet> Well, the entire front-end
06:16:03 <zzo38> I always use GNU89 mode except compiling a program requiring a different mode.
06:16:15 <Jafet> Intel mainly implements the back-end
06:16:22 <shachaf> zzo38: Isn't that true of every mode?
06:16:54 <zzo38> shachaf: I am not sure exactly you mean.
06:17:35 <shachaf> I suppose it's not really.
06:17:46 <kmc> shachaf: ah, right
06:18:04 <kmc> but strangely (i discovered today) it allows mixed declarations and code with -std=c89
06:18:11 <kmc> that is, declarations after statements
06:18:16 <kmc> only with -pedantic does it complain
06:18:48 <shachaf> -std=c89 without -pedantic isn't real -std=c89
06:19:01 <kmc> gotta sleep, ttyl all
06:19:45 <Jafet> The gcc developers officially take the standards as guidelines
06:20:20 <shachaf> I,I non-standard static analysis
06:20:24 <Jafet> So they try to implement the standards for you, but It's A Crapshoot
06:20:37 <Jafet> And the default is always -gnuXX
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16:39:32 <oerjan> <soundnfury> A brace style could be baroque and obtuse...
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16:40:44 <oerjan> do {{ /*********************** GLORIA ***********************/ {{
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16:40:54 <itidus21> zzo38: something tells me that your nes sound files are very difficult to play.
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16:41:19 <itidus21> i have several nes emulators, and i see the online file directory where the nes music is contained
16:41:30 <oerjan> }} /****************** IN EXCELSIS DEO *******************/ }}
16:41:41 <itidus21> however... the operation of appending one file onto another is beyond my ken
16:41:52 <zzo38> itidus21: You need not append one file onto another to play them.
16:42:03 <zzo38> Appending one file onto another is only if you want to play ZZT files.
16:42:16 <itidus21> ^bonus points for using the word ken
16:42:16 <zzo38> in a Famicom emulator.
16:42:32 <oerjan> HEY YOUR BLATHER IS RUINING MY BAROQUE BRACE STYLE
16:42:58 <zzo38> itidus21: To play the .NSFs you need not append any files.
16:43:23 <oerjan> well i'm finished but it got a bit broken up
16:43:27 <oerjan> do {{ /*********************** GLORIA ***********************/ {{
16:43:29 <oerjan> }} /****************** IN EXCELSIS DEO *******************/ }}
16:44:19 <zzo38> itidus21: I clarified the text and will upload a new version later today.
16:44:29 <zzo38> For now, just load the .NSF files without appending anything.
16:44:51 <itidus21> when i said fix it i meant can oerjan fix his baroque brace style :D
16:45:27 <olsner> the text doesn't seem to be properly centered in the /***/ blocks
16:45:47 <zzo38> Yes I know that; but that is not what I meant.
16:45:58 <zzo38> I meant that you can load the .NSF without appending one file onto another.
16:46:10 <oerjan> olsner: sadly GLORIA and EXCELSIS DEO don't have the same parity, so i cannot do that
16:46:28 <olsner> hmm, choose a different proverb?
16:46:52 <itidus21> aha... the nes emulator is happy with nsf
16:47:01 <atriq> Ding dong merrily on high, I think?
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16:48:31 <oerjan> do {{ /********************** LAUDATE **********************/ {{
16:49:05 <oerjan> }} /********************** DOMINUM **********************/ }}
16:49:38 <itidus21> ah... virtuanes doesn't like it, but nestopia does
16:50:04 <zzo38> I am using VirtuaNES; they should work with VirtuaNES.
16:50:30 <zzo38> But any compliant emulator should play them.
16:50:35 <itidus21> or maybe my virtuanes is out of date
16:50:53 <itidus21> i did notice however that virtuanes had a nicer gui
16:51:22 <zzo38> You need to tell it to start the music! Unlike other emulators it will not start automatically.
16:51:43 <zzo38> Go Option->Controller->NSF Player you can configure which key to start music.
16:52:07 <oerjan> <atriq> Ding dong merrily on high, I think? <-- that may be where i heard it first (our english teacher in high school was a nice old scottish woman)
16:52:10 <olsner> oerjan: when you indent, do you reduce the number of asterixes to match?
16:52:42 <atriq> Ding dong merrily on high, hosana in excelsis
16:52:57 <atriq> It's something else?
16:53:26 <kmc> pie iesu domine, dona eis requiem
16:53:30 <oerjan> atriq: there's a long "gloooooooooria" inside it, and in excelsis. i don't think the "in deo" was there when she taught us, but i've heard it with it later
16:54:52 <oerjan> as in, i think her version had "hosana in excelsis" but i've heard oslo gospel choir sing "in excelsis deo"
16:55:15 <atriq> I think hosana is hebrew?
16:55:23 <itidus21> zzo38 (Untitled) #2 is a nice music
16:56:33 <zzo38> itidus21: OK. Did you read the comment? (The file 00README.txt has comments for all of this music)
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16:57:14 <itidus21> my nes rom folder is such a mess.. and is 374mb due to lots of repeats
16:57:37 <zzo38> You could organize them into directories
16:57:46 <oerjan> "Hosanna is a liturgical word in Judaism and Christianity. In Judaism, it is always used in its original Hebrew form, Hoshana."
16:58:07 <itidus21> i have not really put enough effort into the rom collection
16:58:29 <oerjan> ""Gloria in excelsis Deo" (Latin for "Glory to God in the highest") is a hymn known also as the Greater Doxology (as distinguished from the "Minor Doxology" or ..."
16:58:51 <zzo38> Dumped ROMs may be given differing filenames from different sources, including based on method of dumping; homebrew ROMs tend to have only a single filename and do not have that problem. (You may have both kinds on your computer.)
16:58:53 <Arc_Koen> hello guys! I wanted my first message on the channel today be about my love for coffee. so there it is: I LOVE COFFEE thank you for your time
16:59:09 <itidus21> zzo38: my strategy was to download torrents with as many nes files as possible
16:59:42 <oerjan> "The hymn begins with the words that the angels sang when the birth of Christ was announced to shepherds in Luke 2:14"
16:59:42 <zzo38> itidus21: O, in that case, yes there are going to be lots of repeats, of dumped ROMs especially.
16:59:49 <oerjan> so that's where that's from
17:00:01 <itidus21> but naturally, the people who build such torrents have not invested endless time making it perfect
17:00:03 <olsner> Arc_Koen: welcome, I hope you'll enjoy loving coffee in this channel
17:00:55 <Arc_Koen> so what's up? any new TC proofs, a major breach in computational banana schience fiction?
17:00:58 <olsner> I wonder who added "I HAVE NOW" to the topic and what it means
17:01:19 <zzo38> At least for GameBoy, homebrew ROMs downloaded from sources which also include dumped ROMs generally change the filenames of homebrew ROMs as well, though.
17:01:31 <zzo38> (I don't know for NES)
17:01:34 <Arc_Koen> searching the logs for "have you" might give a beginning of answer olsner
17:02:07 <itidus21> i like roms. i like the way they sever most dependancies
17:03:21 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: we are living in Pax Coffeana!
17:03:33 <itidus21> basically... i like that you don't have to install a rom... you don't have to even unzip it
17:03:40 <oerjan> all those wars in ancient times were just because they couldn't get their morning coffee
17:03:51 <itidus21> with roms you can keep a set of games in their zip files
17:03:54 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: when I was in prepschool we have had *one* algorithmic test in a whole year
17:03:57 <atriq> olsner, the "I HAVE NOW" comes from a picture I saw and showed to oerjan
17:04:09 <Arc_Koen> I answered every question except one *and it's been haunting me since then*
17:04:28 <itidus21> i like any system which has such an airtight file storage
17:04:32 <Arc_Koen> and yesterday I had coffee with my grandmother; she makes very, very strong coffee
17:04:39 <atriq> olsner, http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/217130_3530847072634_1433380748_n.jpg
17:04:53 <Arc_Koen> I drank two cups and yesterday night I was unable to sleep
17:05:10 <Arc_Koen> and the solution to the unanswered question *appeared* to me
17:05:25 <Arc_Koen> ironically it was pretty simple :(
17:05:32 <itidus21> today my dinner was 2 rolls with hommus dip, sliced ham, and mild american mustard
17:06:36 <oerjan> <Arc_Koen> so what's up? any new TC proofs, a major breach in computational banana schience fiction? <-- you _have_ looked at Banana Scheme, right? it's not new, though.
17:07:08 <oerjan> <olsner> I wonder who added "I HAVE NOW" to the topic and what it means <-- i did, it was a reference to a picture someone linked of a dog
17:07:28 <Arc_Koen> I read zzo's language with time travel
17:07:42 <Arc_Koen> and it was in category "uncomputable" and I wondered "what else can there be in that category?"
17:07:48 <Arc_Koen> and I pretty much read all pages
17:09:19 <itidus21> zzo38: i have always liked wave patterns ever since i saw akira
17:09:32 <olsner> ooh, http://esolangs.org/wiki/You_are_Reading_the_Name_of_this_Esolang is a nice name for a language
17:10:04 <itidus21> that aspect of the akira story was exciting
17:10:36 <olsner> every time you read it you get that nice feeling of "appropriately, I *am* just now reading the name of that esolang"
17:11:40 <zzo38> itidus21: Do you like any of other musics in there? And, yes, the ROMs are generally a single file which works in any compatible emulator or hardware, so that is OK. NES/Famicom games are being written even very recently, even though Nintendo no longer supports them.
17:13:14 <itidus21> nintendo is a big believer in investing absurd amounts of money into useless novelty gimmicks such as virtual boy and 3ds, although i am still curious to play a 3ds one day
17:14:04 <zzo38> I have designed (but not implemented) a hardware NSF player. The hardware is the same for any .NSF file, it can use any combination of expansion chips, including banked, NTSC, PAL, multi tracks. Push left/right select track number, START to play music, A button to stop.
17:14:06 <itidus21> zzo38: i am just replaying zzo38 #2 at the moment
17:14:41 <kmc> itidus21: the 3DS has sold pretty well
17:14:43 <zzo38> itidus21: Have you ever written any .NSF music?
17:15:27 <itidus21> kmc: yeah..... i guess i do want one.. because 3d does sound fun
17:15:31 <kmc> it's funny to use 'useless novelty gimmicks' as a criticism when talking about video games
17:16:41 <itidus21> kmc: you're right. it's a bit of cognitive dissonance in part
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17:18:03 <zzo38> With the 3DS if you take photographs using the camera and it is connected to the internet, then Nintendo can look at them (it says so in their license agreement). I don't know why; it is no sense. The license agreement also says young children should not use the camera so that Nintendo cannot see them.
17:19:15 <kmc> sigh itidus21
17:20:20 <itidus21> kmc: my concern is partially the fact that it supposedly gives a lot of people headaches, and can't really be played for hours on end, and 3d setting is advised to be turned off around children
17:20:36 <zzo38> But 3DS does have a program for a one-time fee of $8.00 to write and run programs in BASIC.
17:20:43 <itidus21> and also that the virtual boy flopped completely
17:21:02 <zzo38> itidus21: Yes, that too. You can turn off and adjust the 3D setting by a slider at any time, though.
17:21:10 <FireFly> zzo38: ...that's not available in EU yet :(
17:21:14 <ion> It took me a while to figure out what the problem with 3D games is but then i realized you’re talking about stereo games.
17:22:05 <kmc> itidus21: i don't see how the virtual boy is relevant
17:22:15 <kmc> the 3DS has been on sale for more than a year
17:22:25 <kmc> you do not need to speculate to determine if it is a flop
17:22:27 <itidus21> it was nintendo's first attempt at selling stereo graphics
17:23:14 <kmc> guys i think 3D movies are a fad, I think _Avatar_ won't do very well at the box office
17:23:32 <atriq> Arc_Koen, what's your opinion on the Fancy L problem?
17:23:51 <kmc> i just honestly can't understand how you think itidus21
17:23:53 <zzo38> I have determined that many people prefer the 2D version of the movies in this area, although 3D version is still played and some people like it.
17:25:12 <zzo38> I have invented a "NTSC stereovision" protocol where at first is synchronization signal, three gray frames followed by black, white, black, white, black, white, black, white, black, white, and then the left frame alternates with right frame; nine unchanging frames turns off stereovision.
17:25:30 <zzo38> It can be used with digital as well.
17:25:48 <zzo38> Also usable with VGA, PAL, etc.
17:26:16 <atriq> Arc_Koen, http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%92
17:26:31 <kmc> the 3DS sales were poor initially but have picked up, to "solid" if not "runaway success"
17:26:37 <kmc> "After a very rocky start, Nintendo has announced it sold 4.5 million Nintendo 3DS handhelds in the United States during its first year. Believe it or not, that's better than the much-loved Nintendo DS did with its first year."
17:26:42 <itidus21> kmc: i know how to give you insight into how i think
17:27:03 <zzo38> itidus21: Have you ever written any music at all or try to or intend to? I used PPMCK to write these .NSF musics although other programs exist too.
17:27:29 <kmc> zzo38: nice, but i think 14.99 FPS is not enough
17:28:18 <zzo38> kmc: I suppose you are correct. Still, the similar thing can be used with formats other than NTSC.
17:28:25 <ion> I sincerely don’t see why you keep creating protocols and cable specifications based on analog legacy video systems. Why not a fast packet-based digital bus?
17:28:33 <kmc> also, how does it interact with interlacing
17:28:55 <kmc> do you send a full left frame in 2 interlaced half-frames, and then a full right frame?
17:29:20 <kmc> if you did a left half-frame and then a right half-frame, you could get better framerate
17:29:21 <zzo38> Still, using formats without interlacing it may work better.
17:29:29 <kmc> or maybe the interlacing artifacts would be horrible in 3D
17:29:30 <kmc> i don't know
17:29:41 <itidus21> kmc: this is entirely safe for work http://oi48.tinypic.com/2iji4ar.jpg
17:29:46 <zzo38> kmc: Yes that is another possibility; but I also don't know if interlacing artifacts will be horrible in 3D.
17:30:02 <zzo38> Still it could use with other formats such as the "Digi-RGB" format of my design.
17:30:21 <itidus21> a picture says 1000 words i like to think
17:30:40 <olsner> you have 4 notepads open
17:31:14 * ion is reminded of how awful the lack of virtual desktops is.
17:31:46 <zzo38> Digi-RGB is four pins for red, four for green, four for blue, one for clock, one for synchronization, and the others for power/ground. The aspect ratio is always a power of 4/3, which ensures that the correct screen resolution is always known.
17:32:34 <kmc> so is it 12-bit color?
17:32:44 <zzo38> Other than some electrical specifications and stuff, this is basically entirely how it works. It is a very simple protocol.
17:32:47 <itidus21> the icons behind all that are a mess too
17:32:55 <ion> Restricting it to sRGB might also be not the best idea.
17:32:55 <zzo38> kmc: No; I forgot to mention: There are two clocks per pixel.
17:32:57 <kmc> or do you have multiple clocks per pixel
17:33:16 <kmc> that does sound simple
17:33:26 <itidus21> zzo38: i have anvil studio for playing with midi files but is a long time since i did that
17:34:11 <itidus21> as far as 8bit music goes i am interested in the way creativity thrives under constraints
17:34:18 <zzo38> If the host wants to turn off the display for power saving, you can fix the synchronization signal high.
17:35:57 <itidus21> also i have a copy of warioware diy for ds which has a music editor for short music about 16 seconds long i think
17:36:43 <zzo38> itidus21: There is also program to convert MIDI to .NSF, I think, by Tom 7 Entertainment System. There is also PPMCK (I use a version of PPMCK which I have made improvements to), Famitracker, NerdTracker, and possibly others.
17:36:57 <itidus21> in midi i just clicked on random spots
17:37:31 <itidus21> hmm.. actually some of the midi music i came up with isn't all that bad
17:37:38 <zzo38> The ZZT music player I have written for Famicom will also be .NSF format.
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17:38:15 <itidus21> i like the bull in a museum approach to music composition
17:38:17 <zzo38> Other programs I have heard for writing .NSF musics is Impulse Tracker to .NSF, and SuperNSF (which includes a software synthesizer, I think)
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17:39:20 <zzo38> In that music collection of my .NSF music files, the .mml are the source files and are just plain text files; you can look at them if you are interested in it.
17:39:24 <itidus21> also, i have started to ponder about the relationship between things...
17:40:12 <itidus21> like, with the sound track of a movie, the main relationship between the music and the footage is that someone decided to put them together
17:41:23 <zzo38> Well, sometimes the people make the music specifically for this movie
17:41:43 <itidus21> its almost as if the director is trying to trick you into listening to their favorite songs, and asking you to pay for the privelige
17:41:43 <zzo38> But sometimes they just make various music and then see which one they want.
17:43:15 <itidus21> so... next time you want to show someone your favorite music
17:43:25 <itidus21> simply set it to an interesting footage!
17:44:50 <itidus21> zzo38: yeah good point.... maybe if i had actually composed music i would understand a bit more
17:45:28 <itidus21> when in doubt, people like me always assume the option which involves humans being brain-dead
17:45:29 <zzo38> You can try to write a .NSF music if you want; first you will need some software which will compile it. Two main styles are MML and trackers; some prefer one and some prefer another.
17:46:26 <zzo38> And then, you have to learn the 2A03 audio and the expansion audio.
17:46:39 <itidus21> people often assume, "when he did that, he did not think about it..."
17:47:02 <itidus21> this is probably a fallacy in itself
17:47:03 <zzo38> itidus21: Yes that does sometimes seem to be the case that they did not think about it very well.
17:47:12 <zzo38> (Not always, though.)
17:49:38 <zzo38> Other than MML and trackers, another possibility is using MIDI recording.
17:50:27 <itidus21> theory of mind of a stranger can't be very accurate
17:53:03 <zzo38> Have you used any other programs for writing music, other than Anvil Studio?
17:53:51 <itidus21> i am bad at arriving at a point. but i mean i don't understand what an artist or composer does. i almost have trouble believing in art at all. and no i haven't
17:54:20 <zzo38> I think different composers can compose music using different ways
17:54:48 <zzo38> However I know some things about music theory, so I can use that too.
17:55:15 <itidus21> i think people can impart their uniqueness on what they do
17:55:53 <zzo38> Yes I think so too.
17:56:32 <itidus21> i guess what i really mean by that is, the way one person does things will always be different from how everyone else does it
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17:58:53 <itidus21> and maybe this is always true, except, when measuring what people do, somehow theres a finite number of options
17:59:56 <itidus21> in anatomy, no animal is ever precisely matching the anatomy of it's species
18:00:12 <itidus21> it's always somewhere in a continuum of evolution
18:01:34 <itidus21> an eye is an eye but it is evolving beyond some other eye, and evolving towards some other eye
18:02:25 <zzo38> I would think that, although it is continuous only the discrete ways are realized as I think quantum physics works like this?
18:02:48 <zzo38> Therefore it applies to everything, whether it is physics or chemistry or biology or electronics
18:04:26 <Arc_Koen> I personally feel "is said language turing-complete or not?" is not enough of a question to describe a language's computational class
18:04:39 <Arc_Koen> I mean, Turing-machines don't even have i/o
18:05:09 <zzo38> I have now typed the changes of the character sheet of Dungeons&Dragons game; I helped another player to fill their character sheet and now I have put it into the computer too. This also include entirely story text too, and all character sheets, footnotes, etc
18:05:25 <itidus21> i am thinking that in the acts of rolling a dice, or flipping a coin, a person cannot express their uniqueness... but on the other hand something tells me that they can
18:05:29 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: OK; does computation class include I/O class though? Perhaps I/O class is another difference thing.
18:06:18 <quintopia> zzo38: computation class includes rogue, paladin, cleric, mage, sorceror, and assassin
18:06:31 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: well, I never said it had to be linear :) classes are set, so there is not necessarily an absolute order on them
18:06:36 <atriq> quintopia, can I be a cleric?
18:06:40 <itidus21> if people were not expressing some form of being unique then elections would have everyone voting the same way
18:06:53 <zzo38> quintopia: ha ha no I do not think so.
18:07:03 <atriq> They're pretty cool guys
18:07:08 <zzo38> A cleric does not necessarily have to be the healer, although generally it would be.
18:07:28 <atriq> Could I be a mezzer?
18:07:53 <zzo38> In D&D game I am in, there are two player characters, one fighter and one wizard (actually multi-classed).
18:08:05 <quintopia> i just made a new programming language called Healing Serj. It is Cleric-complete.
18:09:05 <zzo38> In D&D game I do the psychic healing myself.
18:09:48 <zzo38> My character is illithid wizard, other character is human fighter
18:10:41 <zzo38> But you have to read the file to learn what happened in this game. Actually it started with a different player who is now out and the new player who is human fighter came in afterward.
18:10:50 <zzo38> It is a different player and a different character.
18:11:59 <zzo38> OK do you have URL (or netcat transfer)?
18:13:03 <quintopia> the file currently only exists as a google doc and it is constantly changing
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18:13:36 <zzo38> Maybe you can do netcat transfer of the current version?
18:14:59 <zzo38> I would prefer a text file rather than a Google Docs file anyways
18:15:17 <zzo38> But use a different format if it is necessary.
18:16:00 <zzo38> Then put it on your computer and then transfer it to text format, and then host it or upload it to another host or netcat transfer it to me directly.
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18:23:06 <zzo38> Then copy it to the clipboard and paste it.
18:23:28 <zzo38> If that won't work either, retype it or take a screenshot.
18:23:47 <zzo38> (using a camera if necessary)
18:24:19 <zzo38> Doesn't Google Docs allow converting to other formats, though? So why can't it work?
18:26:39 <zzo38> Then transfer it to your desktop computer.
18:28:13 <zzo38> With mine, I am only one changing it, and it is available for public, you can download the .tex and .dvi files (the .dvi may not be up to date)
18:29:11 <zzo38> And in addition you can easily download it by wget or netcat so it is not necessary to use a web browser.
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18:31:44 <quintopia> i will wait until it is more uptodate and not changing as much
18:37:48 <zzo38> Do you have Dungeons&Dragons character? What is their name?
18:38:07 <zzo38> My character's name is Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe (I generated at random on my graphing calculator)
18:39:37 <zzo38> Yes I can pronounce it, but some people find it difficult.
18:40:29 <quintopia> are you a fighter, a social, or a thinker.
18:41:09 <quintopia> you like puzzles and traps and mysteries
18:41:20 <zzo38> The other player character is fighter.
18:41:49 <zzo38> My character is also psychic^Wpsionic.
18:42:11 <zzo38> We do both do various things, just mainly my character is thinker and other character is fighter
18:43:26 <quintopia> i meant you as a player, though it doesnt surprise me that your character is just like you
18:43:57 <olsner> funny, the vulcans think time travel is impossible, but places where "the laws of physics don't apply" are fine
18:44:19 <zzo38> Well, yes, as me as a player is the one thinking about the game mostly.
18:45:18 <zzo38> And my character is not just like me; nor is the other player's character exactly like her, either.
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19:07:22 <zzo38> OK, you tell me when you have the file I will look if you want me to.
19:20:53 <zzo38> Are there tests for pseudorandom number generators programmed in 6502 machine code?
19:21:00 <ion> http://img.reversegif.com/14022.gif
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19:34:30 <zzo38> What is a good simple pseudorandom number generator usable to shuffle a deck of cards which can be programmed in a 6502 machine code?
19:35:25 <kmc> http://forums.wolfram.com/mathgroup/archive/2003/Feb/msg00456.html here is some discussion of simple PRNGs
19:36:12 <kmc> MWC256 is pretty good but it involves 32-bit math and wants 1kB of state
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19:42:13 <kmc> you could capture the RNG's output from an emulator and then run it through http://www.phy.duke.edu/~rgb/General/dieharder.php
19:45:12 <zzo38> This program is for Famicom and should make one using 8-bit math and not as much RAM; MMC5 can be used for multiplication if it helps, another idea is the microphone but that is only Japanese systems and doesn't generally work with emulators, and I don't know how sensitive it is anyways.
19:47:14 <Arc_Koen> hey guys, if I'm willing to learn a (non-esoteric) concurrent programming language, what would you recommand? I thought maybe occam-pi but I would be glad to have a second opinion
19:48:57 <pikhq> zzo38: Also won't work on all real Famicoms.
19:49:26 <pikhq> zzo38: The AV Famicom didn't have a microphone, instead opting for NES controller ports.
19:49:35 <zzo38> I do not think the microphone is sensitive enough anyways as far as I know.
19:49:48 <pikhq> (the AV Famicom is the Japanese version of the top-loading NES)
19:54:08 <zzo38> But yes for those reasons, probably should not use microphone.
19:57:04 <zzo38> For what I am doing I need to shuffle a standard deck of cards, however the ranks are not relevant, only the suits are used.
20:01:29 <zzo38> I wonder if there are other features of the 2A03 audio, of PPU, and/or of common mappers, which may be used to help random numbers.
20:04:49 <quintopia> most games from way back then used user interaction delays as sources of randomness
20:05:26 <quintopia> like "fifteen frames between loading this menu and the user pressing a key"
20:06:09 <zzo38> I did intend to use that as the seed for the random number generator.
20:07:12 <quintopia> maybe you can use this http://codebase64.org/doku.php?id=base:small_fast_8-bit_prng
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20:17:36 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: erlang or haskell perhaps? (from hearsay really. the latter is my favorite PL but i don't really use the concurrency parts.)
20:18:02 <Arc_Koen> oh, I did not even realize haskell had concurrent programming
20:18:29 <oerjan> pure functionalness really helps make some aspects of it easier (i hear :) )
20:18:55 <pikhq> Arc_Koen: I'm told it's really good, but I've not played with it enough.
20:19:03 <oerjan> no, easier not to mess up with deadlocks and the like
20:21:33 <oerjan> erlang afaik has a single concurrency model based on message passing and automatic distribution. haskell has a lot of different possibilities but mostly for single multicore chip work (there is distribution research but it's not really part of normal haskell yet i think)
20:22:06 <kmc> ghc haskell has both concurrent IO actions and parallel evaluation of pure function applications
20:22:11 <kmc> different constructs for each
20:22:23 <kmc> and yeah, there isn't much for distributed programming
20:22:29 <oerjan> also the infamous STM monad
20:22:50 <kmc> people talk about Cloud Haskell as a replacement for Erlang, but it's still research grade as far as I know
20:22:58 <shachaf> Haskell supports the IO monad, the STM monad, and the function monad.
20:23:07 <kmc> at least in #haskell they downplay all that "trivial" boring engineering work needed to actually use stuff
20:23:12 <Arc_Koen> hmmmm yes that's what I wasn't attracted by erlang much. I have no use for *actual* distribution - is it possible to use concurrent programming in haskell with more concurrent parts than cores on my computer?
20:23:14 <oerjan> (software transactional memory, where everything that could break the model is disallowed by types)
20:23:25 <kmc> Arc_Koen: yes, you can easily spawn 1,000,000 threads in GHC
20:23:41 <kmc> they are lightweight threads which map onto a configurable number of OS threads (usually one per core)
20:23:41 * Sgeo sads at how expensive threads are on the JVM
20:24:07 <Arc_Koen> well that does sound very attractive
20:24:16 <shachaf> oerjan: "is disallowed by types" is a bit silly.
20:24:23 <kmc> also you can do blocking IO from those million threads, and the GHC runtime translates that into efficient event-based system calls (e.g. select, epoll, kqueue)
20:24:27 <shachaf> It's like saying that everything that does IO is disallowed by types.
20:24:42 <kmc> so it's pretty sweet
20:24:54 <shachaf> The only thing types do in that case is catch errors early.
20:24:59 <oerjan> i think that new clojure language may also be good for concurrency with encouraged but not enforced pure functionalness, but i haven't looked at it
20:25:36 <oerjan> shachaf: well i was trying to find a phrase that didn't require understanding monads already :)
20:25:48 <kmc> on the other hand, it's a huge amount of work to learn Haskell well enough to write complicated robust performant programs
20:26:14 <shachaf> It has nothing to do with monads!
20:26:15 <kmc> a lot of the lore you need to know is poorly documented and basically exists as oral history in #haskell
20:26:18 <kmc> and #haskell sucks
20:26:56 <shachaf> The first sentence, I mean.
20:27:01 <kmc> i think so
20:27:14 <shachaf> There are a lot of Haskell people who don't use #haskell at all...
20:27:26 <kmc> yeah i don't know how they get by
20:27:40 <kmc> honestly there's not that much overlap between #haskell users and core Haskell library developers
20:27:48 <kmc> or people who are using Haskell in real world applications
20:27:50 <kmc> as far as i can tell
20:27:55 <kmc> so maybe my other claim is bs
20:28:07 * shachaf won't dispute the second one.
20:28:13 <kmc> when i was doing more haskell i felt like a lot of the things I knew, i couldn't find any specific reference for
20:28:19 <kmc> much less a top-level "Here are the things you should learn" document
20:28:29 <kmc> as far as performance, understanding evaluation model, GHC tricks, etc
20:28:41 <shachaf> You should write a Haskell book!
20:28:59 <FreeFull> Why can I do (!! 4) [0..10] but not (!! 4 [0..10])
20:29:13 <kmc> > (!! 4 [0..10])
20:29:14 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show ([a] -> a)
20:29:14 <Sgeo> I'm starting to wonder if there's a similar "need to be in the IRC channel" issue with Clojure
20:29:26 <shachaf> > (!! 4 [0..10]) "hello monqy"
20:29:28 <kmc> FreeFull: that parses as (!! (4 [0..10]))
20:29:43 <shachaf> I don't do it in #haskell, at least.
20:29:50 <kmc> fuck lambdabot
20:30:20 <oerjan> <kmc> a lot of the lore you need to know is poorly documented and basically exists as oral history in #haskell <-- what about stackoverflow?
20:30:24 <kmc> yeah maybe
20:32:32 <shachaf> kmc: Should I do https://www.coursera.org/course/crypto ?
20:32:54 <FreeFull> Wait, why does (!! 4) [0..10] work when the type is [a] -> Int -> a
20:33:20 <shachaf> (`operator` arg) = (\x -> x `operator` arg)
20:33:23 <oerjan> FreeFull: (!! 4) is syntactical sugar for \x -> x !! 4
20:33:50 <FreeFull> Oh, because !! is an infix operator
20:34:04 <kmc> (+ x) and (x +) are special syntactic forms
20:34:07 <kmc> for any infix operator +
20:34:09 <kmc> they are called "sections"
20:34:28 <oerjan> _except_ - , for which (- x) doesn't work (it gives negation instead.
20:35:12 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (t -> t)
20:35:45 <shachaf> You could've picked *any* number other than 4 for the second argument...
20:36:11 <kmc> FreeFull: you shouldn't actually try to learn from lambdabot
20:36:19 <kmc> it implements a bizarre variant of Haskell with a bunch of nonstandard definitions
20:36:23 <oerjan> FreeFull: also shachaf's complaint and kmc's swearing above is because lambdabot has a special instance which makes it able to treat functions as numbers. which means some of the examples work differently
20:36:27 <kmc> for the amusement of the regulars in #haskell
20:36:38 <oerjan> kmc: stop making my point a half second before i finish it :)
20:36:44 <kmc> apparently they find it entertaining to confuse beginners, or something
20:36:50 <FreeFull> oerjan: What sort of function will it treat as a number?
20:37:10 <shachaf> I think oerjan means "numbers as functions".
20:37:14 <kmc> numeric literals in Haskell are overloaded
20:37:18 <kmc> 4 has type (Num a) => a
20:37:25 <kmc> it can take on any type in the typeclass Num
20:37:38 <kmc> and lambdabot has an instance (Num a) => Num (b -> a)
20:37:52 <kmc> :t 4 :: Char -> Int
20:38:01 <kmc> which is equavalent to (const 4) i.e. \x -> 4
20:38:02 <itidus21> kmc: well that would explain why the chatter count in haskell is about 950, c++ is about 650, and c is about 450 ... on freenode
20:38:16 <kmc> > 4 "sucks"
20:38:28 <kmc> then addition is like (f + g) x = (f x) + (g x)
20:38:29 <itidus21> one could naively assume that haskell was the preferred language of freenode chatters
20:38:30 <kmc> and so forth
20:38:38 <kmc> > (4 + 5) "foo"
20:38:40 <kmc> FreeFull: why which
20:38:59 <kmc> because the regulars in #haskell find it amusing to play with these ideas
20:39:09 <kmc> it's not really fair for me to say they find it amusing to confuse beginners
20:39:13 <kmc> but it certainly does confuse beginners
20:39:23 <kmc> and nobody much seems to care
20:39:31 <FreeFull> Don't beginners use ghci though =P
20:39:31 <kmc> #haskell is full of people who talk past each other about what's the best way to teach Haskell
20:39:35 <Sgeo> You care, at least.
20:39:36 <kmc> nothing ever changes, nobody writes anything down
20:39:46 <kmc> yeah but I quit #haskell
20:39:53 <kmc> after making some attempts to get people to fix things
20:40:03 <kmc> FreeFull: a lot of them join #haskell for help
20:40:07 <itidus21> i popped in just to check the count
20:40:10 <oerjan> FreeFull: yes, but sometimes beginners ask haskell questions in irc and then it's nice to have lambdabot to demonstrate
20:40:11 <kmc> and then someone tries to use lambdabot to help them
20:40:16 <kmc> and then lambdabot does something confusing
20:40:27 <kmc> and five people try to explain the confusing thing all at once
20:40:27 <itidus21> 943 or so.... thats really quite a packed channel
20:40:33 <kmc> and then they start arguing about which explanation is better
20:40:44 <oerjan> itidus21: you can check the count with /list #haskell
20:40:51 <kmc> it gets old ;P
20:41:56 <FreeFull> Great, I did /list kmc and now it's listing all the channels
20:42:16 <oerjan> ok i guess /list can be a _little_ dangerous >:)
20:42:33 <FreeFull> Also I somehow didn't get flooded off by the /list
20:43:16 <oerjan> it is possible freenode is a little more careful about sending /list responses
20:44:41 <oerjan> it seems to me that it is simply ignoring the kmc argument, which seems singularly unhelpful
20:45:35 <kmc> ignoring the kmc argument, just like #haskell
20:45:46 <oerjan> THAT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING!
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20:50:06 <oerjan> maybe it was a side effect of me using /rawquote, it disappeared when i did a /whois
20:50:36 <oerjan> (as in, irssi registered lag but there wasn't _really_ any...)
20:52:03 <oerjan> hm no, it is happening again. it's because /rawquote swallows pings
20:52:53 * oerjan thinks /rawquote is wrong but can never remember the correct command to send things directly to the server from irssi (it is _not_ /raw)
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20:57:04 <oerjan> so /rawquote swallowed a ping reply from the server, causing irssi to timeout :P
20:57:26 <oerjan> (it was /quote btw but i had to google it)
20:57:37 <oerjan> irssi's help is _not_ good.
20:58:03 <itidus21> #python has more users than #haskell curiously
20:59:43 -!- oerjan has set topic: I HAVE NOW | Official channel of ESME | ESME is the best programming language. Why have you abandoned ESME? | Do not fret, ESME can forgive you. Give yourself freely to ESME. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
21:00:35 <oerjan> i notice ESME is not _actually_ all caps but it feels like it should be
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21:12:23 <FreeFull> http://fd-imaging.com/the-worlds-tiniest-tiff-image/
21:13:29 <kmc> reminds me of http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html
21:13:34 <kmc> which is a classic
21:15:43 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, update
21:16:00 <Sgeo> And sorry about not mentioning updates before
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21:37:11 <zzo38> At least on my computer the command is /RAW to send directly to the server, it does no further processing and only sends it directly to server; if you want CRLF you have to add that yourself too. (If you don't want this then you don't use /RAW)
21:38:31 <zzo38> I don't know what they are in irssi and other programs.
21:39:48 <oerjan> i think /raw is common, and it's annoying that irssi calls it something else
21:40:34 <oerjan> FreeFull: um yes it does. /rawquote doesn't, however.
21:40:52 <oerjan> which is how i got disconnected a while ago
21:41:20 <zzo38> O, so that is why it doesn't work.
21:42:26 <oerjan> specifically i got back the following answer after doing /rawquote help
21:42:29 <oerjan> 22:51 helpPING Unknown command
21:44:22 <oerjan> which means irssi never got back an answer to its automatic PING, which means it timed out. despite lots of other lines flowing back and forth.
21:56:32 <FreeFull> oerjan: My irssi doesn't have /rawquote
21:56:41 <FreeFull> Are you sure it's not part of a script
22:01:26 <oerjan> it's listed with /help, but it has no help itself
22:03:43 <oerjan> "We decided to remove /rawquote because it serves no purpose."
22:04:06 <oerjan> so my irssi is a little old then
22:12:12 <Sgeo> So, so far this year, two IRC channels I'm in have experienced significant drama
22:12:16 <Sgeo> I wonder when #esoteric's due
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22:16:40 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: sorry, not dramatic enough
22:17:39 <zzo38> It looks in this Sorcery Card game, you could instantly win if you are dealt the XXI XX XIX XVIII XVII XVI of trumps, since you can deal more damage than their starting hit points are.
22:20:30 <Sgeo> I wonder if you could evolve levels of a game with a fitness function that leads to the player having a certain amount of trouble, no more, no less.
22:20:58 <Sgeo> Such that as the player improves, the levels will on average get harder, and if the player starts slipping, they start getting easier.
22:21:18 <Sgeo> Although, since it's such a random walk, it's likely not going to feel like that over the short term
22:21:26 <zzo38> I don't really like that; they should get harder by selecting a difficulty setting instead.
22:21:46 <zzo38> (Of course one of the difficulty settings could be, automatic.)
22:27:31 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: you are too fast to be dramatic! if i'm only choking there will be that long, painful time when i'm not dead yet but people feel helpless and don't know how to save me. besides, many people enjoy explosions, so where's the drama?
22:29:06 <oerjan> it'sa gritty action-o-drama!
22:31:09 <oerjan> <Sgeo> I wonder if you could evolve levels of a game with a fitness function that leads to the player having a certain amount of trouble, no more, no less. <-- i have a theory that's how the real world works. also someone decrease my level _just_ a tad, please?
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23:01:58 <itidus21> i was thinking about evolution in gaming
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23:57:11 <zzo38> Is there something wrong with this? x@(Surreal l _) <= y@(Surreal _ r) = null (filter (y <=) l) && null (filter (<= x) r);
00:02:15 <oerjan> `pastelogs free.*applicative
00:02:54 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23349
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00:05:04 <oerjan> `pastelogs free.*applicative
00:05:19 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.937
00:05:32 <Sgeo> Why did you do that twice?
00:23:40 <oerjan> for some reason the first link didn't load
00:24:57 <oerjan> zzo38: iirc that looks good
00:26:05 <zzo38> oerjan: But it doesn't work. It compiles but it won't give the correct answer.
00:26:54 <oerjan> well iirc x > y iff there exists something in l >= y or something in r <= x
00:27:19 <oerjan> which seems equivalent to what you wrote
00:29:13 <oerjan> zzo38: what's your counterexample?
00:30:51 <zzo38> O, nevermind it is working OK. The problem was the wrong addition.
00:32:15 <zzo38> The other problem was multiplication not being defined.
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01:09:45 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Applicative f) => f a -> f (a -> b) -> f b
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02:16:02 <fizzie> Is it a bad sign that there's a wifi network called "Wecanseeyounaked"?
02:18:13 <oerjan> nah, they can see everyone naked
02:18:43 <kmc> that's a cool superpower
02:21:50 <fizzie> There's also a "Booblies".
02:22:00 <fizzie> I suppose it's some kind of a combination of boobies and lies.
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03:17:14 <pikhq> kmc: Curse your name not being actually kmc.
03:17:40 <pikhq> I saw "Keegan McAllister" posting about taralli in my RSS reader, thought you should know about it, and then put two and two together.
03:17:58 <ion> What was the answer?
03:17:59 <oerjan> slavek kmc, the famous czech computer scientist
03:18:55 <oerjan> disclaimer: m may not actually be a vowel in czech. l and r are, however.
03:22:26 <ion> How are l and r pronounced in Czech?
03:25:51 <oerjan> well, usually normally, it's just that they can carry a syllable
03:27:42 <oerjan> Strč prst skrz krk <- tongue twister
03:33:14 <kmc> pikhq: ooc, why did you think of telling me about it
03:33:19 <kmc> is it because i mentioned toroidal desktop here before?
03:33:54 <pikhq> kmc: The thought was "Oh, that'd probably be much nicer for him than his current setup."
03:34:13 <kmc> indeed it is ;)
03:35:08 <kmc> http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2012/09/taralli-screen-edge-pointer-wrapping.html
03:40:21 * ion tried it. You lose the display’s four sweet spots.
03:41:44 <kmc> meaning the points which are easy to hit?
03:45:38 <oerjan> yeah i also thought a toroidal screen would make the edges harder to hit...
03:46:02 <kmc> yeah, it does
03:46:28 <kmc> but i think it's worth it, especially on a desktop 5000 pixels wide
03:48:58 <kmc> i don't need to hit edges that often
03:49:31 <kmc> i mainly use the mouse for clicking stuff on web pages
03:49:42 <kmc> and copy-pasting text
03:50:03 <kmc> the stuff at the edges of the screen -- scroll bars and the browser tab bar -- i have keyboard shortcuts for
03:51:26 <kmc> i'm trying out Vimium now :)
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03:52:39 <fizzie> I tried a (also synergy-driven) wrapping desktop once, with a desktop 4544 pixels wide, but somehow could never (well, in the day or two I had it) learn to take the short way around.
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04:45:59 <tswett> @Horse_ebooks tweet: "Awaken The Unused 98% Of Your Infinite"
04:46:13 <tswett> I think I'm fine with the 2% of my infinite that I'm actually using.
04:46:31 <tswett> I mean, it's still perfectly nice and infinite.
04:46:45 <pikhq> 2% of infinity is quite impressive still.
04:46:59 <oerjan> yeah caring about the difference is a cardinal sin
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06:03:05 <zzo38> 2% of infinite is still infinite (but depending on what kind of infinite number systems is being used, it might be less).
06:13:26 <Sgeo> I can only assume that tswett learned of horse_ebooks because Hussie.
06:18:42 <pikhq> zzo38: So we punned.
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06:35:45 <soundnfury> <zzo38> What is a good simple pseudorandom number generator...
06:35:47 <soundnfury> zzo38: if the PRNG doesn't have to be very secure, just use a LFSR
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07:12:44 <zzo38> The Finalize monad must have a use in category theory in general?
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08:01:06 <elliott> kmc: Isn't it kind of bad that taralli breaks the well-known consequence of Fitts's Law, in that it removes the ideal locations of the edges and esp. corners of the screen?
08:13:08 <zzo38> I have some idea: I once read somewhere someone had a computer program on punched cards and the customs agent took some of the cards. My idea is program (or programming language) that you can shuffle the cards and take out up to 10% and the program still works.
08:16:57 <shachaf> whoa, dude, this is weird.
08:20:23 <shachaf> It segfaults if you don't run it under X. :-(
08:23:27 <zzo38> soundnfury: But can this PRNG be used for easily shuffling a deck of cards, and are most permutations possible?
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08:31:20 <Jafet> One could use arcfour-N to generate permutations
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09:23:54 <shachaf> kmc: Are you sure you should check event.xcookie.type == GenericEvent?
09:23:59 <shachaf> (As opposed to event.type.)
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09:48:01 <shachaf> kmc: Is there a reason you do all the work to check for a RawMotion event? As far as I can tell the program gets no other events, and doing extra wrapping probably isn't harmful anyway.
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10:15:36 <itidus21> zzo: theres 2 possible approaches i can think of.. one is to say order doesn't matter... another is to have a means of re-sorting the cards when necessary
10:17:02 <itidus21> the part about being able to remove 10% of the cards sounds more tricky
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11:49:17 <shachaf> @ask elliott 04:41 <ddarius> shachaf: Okay, so you want Nothing returned when neither modifies either to indicated that the compound didn't modify anything.
11:49:26 <shachaf> @ask elliott (It made perfect sense in context!)
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12:01:17 <ais523> Anarchy's beginning to look more like a real language now
12:01:27 <ais523> even though all I'm doing is tweaking the spec to avoid warts
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12:10:15 <ais523> and writing the grammar to type correctly
12:14:07 <ais523> one interesting feature that came about is that functions have something of a "natural parameter order"
12:14:31 <ais523> e.g. strchr needle haystack has a somewhat cleaner implementation than strchr haystack needle
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13:04:40 <tswett> Sgeo: quite indirectly, yeah.
13:04:52 <tswett> horse_ebooks via Robert J! Lake via Solatrus via the Bandcamp page.
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15:23:17 <atriq> I swear, on any other programming website
15:23:33 <atriq> That which a Truth-machine is designed to showcase would be a given
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15:56:23 <Arc_Koen> uh, it's not possible to write a truth-machine in Chef?
15:56:54 <Arc_Koen> apparently output is only possible once the program has terminated... which it doesn't in case of an infinite loop
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16:39:08 <atriq> Phantom__Hoover, Truth-machine
16:40:14 <Arc_Koen> atriq: what did you mean "That which a Truth-machine is designed to showcase would be a given"?
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17:50:08 <olsner> oh my, they made the intro theme worse in season 3
17:50:18 <Sgeo> olsner, to what?
17:50:34 <Sgeo> There was a season 3?
17:52:00 <olsner> they added some cheesy backing track, I suppose they intended to make it "fuller" or something but it sounds more like they found the make-a-beat button on the keyboard
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18:41:20 <atriq> They also changed the theme tune to Thomas the Tank Engine, fwiw
18:41:24 <atriq> Also they made it CGI
18:43:23 <olsner> I don't remember enterprise ever switching to the Thomes the Tank Engine theme
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18:51:42 <oerjan> <shachaf> @ask elliott (It made perfect sense in context!) <-- if you say so.
18:53:32 <olsner> I wonder if I watched thomas the tank engine in english when I was a kid or if it was translated ... can't remember what it was called in swedish though
18:53:50 <atriq> I watched it in English
18:54:23 <atriq> I also watched it in England
18:54:45 <atriq> I think the latter rather accounts for the former
18:55:16 <oerjan> it's "lokomotivet thomas" in norwegian, anyway
18:55:22 <olsner> In Finnish, the show is called Tuomas-veturi.
18:56:34 <oerjan> hexham = helsinki, by a symmetry which switches finnish and english.
18:57:18 <atriq> Hexham also has a very poor to nonexistent underground/light railway
18:58:21 <olsner> "underground railway" makes me think of a subculture of railway enthusiasts running an illegal private railway
18:59:19 <oerjan> i used to like london, back when it was underground
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19:06:39 <shachaf> oerjan: I never watched it at all.
19:08:33 <oerjan> (i'm not sure if i have)
19:10:01 <itidus21> i watched some on youtube this year
19:10:19 <atriq> What did you make of it?
19:10:43 <itidus21> well i was aware of it before... but...
19:11:19 <itidus21> i guess i'm not all that fond of the political philosophies espoused by any shows about workers having to work
19:12:36 <itidus21> the point is it has ringo, it has trains, and it has cool landscapes
19:13:03 <atriq> And what do you think of El Nombre?
19:13:03 <itidus21> and perhaps a world first, anthropomorphic trains
19:13:14 <Phantom__Hoover> I remember reading a thing about how Thomas the Tank Engine espoused the Blairite work ethic
19:13:28 <Phantom__Hoover> Except I was really young at the time and I was more confused than anything else.
19:13:38 <atriq> It's based on a book! It's very pre-Blair!
19:13:46 <itidus21> Phantom__Hoover: thats good... i didnt just imagine it!
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19:15:13 <atriq> It had 7 or 8 books before Tony Blair was born!
19:15:30 <atriq> The Blairite work eithic espoused Thomas the Tank Engine
19:16:32 <itidus21> for some reason i read blair as thatcher
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19:17:47 <itidus21> anyway though.. i always say stupid things like that...
19:17:56 <itidus21> but i like thomas the tank engine
19:18:57 <itidus21> anyway... a show which is good is the live action animated version of the wind in the willows
19:19:29 <itidus21> i like these anthropomorphic animal based shows
19:20:33 <oerjan> is today's http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/ nothing more than a typo correction?
19:21:35 <oerjan> next up: günther the gas chamber
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19:23:44 <oerjan> apparently it can be either
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19:26:21 <shachaf> oerjan: You're not a very useful bot. :-(
19:26:37 <oerjan> my specialty is puns, not information
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19:27:10 <shachaf> No, that's no good either. :-(
19:27:28 <itidus21> fresh baked puns can't be just served up
19:27:52 <shachaf> oerjan: Want to hear the best joke in the world?
19:27:57 <zzo38> If a category has more than one final object, or more than one initial object, are they isomorphic?
19:28:01 <shachaf> Q: Where does a general keep his armies?
19:28:27 <oerjan> zzo38: that's not a pun
19:28:43 <zzo38> I already said no I won't tell you a pun, please.
19:29:34 <oerjan> because there is exactly one morphism each way, and their compositions must be the identities
19:29:58 <zzo38> Yes that is what I thought.
19:30:32 <itidus21> even when category theory is all worked out, our descendants will evolve new levels of conciousness with which they must solve greater and greater riddles.... and the accomplishments of humans in what we currently call 2012 won't seem very helpful except in a retro kind of way
19:32:09 <hagb4rd> no very helpful except in a retro kind of way you say
19:32:36 <itidus21> "oh look, they used their bodies to think. how quaint"
19:32:48 <oerjan> i keep getting this feeling that itidus21 says things that _might_ be true, but which there's nearly no evidence for
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19:33:19 <hagb4rd> everyting i thought i'messed. my body is working the things out
19:33:44 <olsner> things that might be true in the same sense that random sentences from fungot might be true?
19:33:44 <hagb4rd> without any active control of my mind
19:33:45 <fungot> olsner: my understanding is an fsa two counters ( bignums), rationals or complex numbers? ( credit card numbers?)
19:33:58 <hagb4rd> i every smile i thought of was a fake smile
19:34:00 <oerjan> olsner: maybe slightly more coherent
19:34:02 <itidus21> oerjan: i just see my random posts as a kind of venting i can't help myself but blurt out...
19:34:14 <itidus21> i think its tied in with the anxiety thing
19:34:39 <oerjan> shachaf: btw heard it before
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19:35:02 <itidus21> hagb4rd: none of thats true etc..
19:35:04 <shachaf> oerjan: Doesn't stop it from being the best joke in the world!
19:35:16 <shachaf> oerjan: Though, you know: The beauty of the pun is in the Oy of the beholder.
19:35:52 <hagb4rd> okay if there is nothing between true and false it is not true
19:36:32 <oerjan> itidus21: regarding category theory, i have this feeling there is a whole world of things going on in algebraic geometry that are immensely powerful yet so abstract that i could never hope to understand them. and i have a math doctorate!
19:36:33 <itidus21> basically i am trying to avoid thinking about things myself
19:36:33 <hagb4rd> thats y i don't like digital media :P
19:36:52 <oerjan> so any idea that things will ever be all worked out is naive, i think
19:37:05 <oerjan> (even without considering godel and turing)
19:37:11 <itidus21> its the same reason i cant sit there and read a book.....
19:37:27 <itidus21> i cant even sit there and think
19:37:27 <olsner> This Togliatti surface is an algebraic surface of degree five: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Togliatti_surface.png
19:38:03 <zzo38> I can't just sit there and read a book, or sit there and think, either; to read much of a book I prefer to lie down.
19:38:12 <itidus21> so rather than think about things, i just blurt them out
19:38:14 <zzo38> For thinking it is various; sometimes walking around
19:38:26 <zzo38> Sometimes I am lying down or sleeping
19:38:33 <zzo38> Sometimes sit down.
19:40:47 <zzo38> Sometimes by writing.
19:41:04 <zzo38> When I am think about things by writing it is often not clear to anyone else, what it is for.
19:42:26 <olsner> I like to think by writing
19:42:42 <olsner> when I try to think by thinking I usually only achieve the illusion of thinking
19:43:04 <hagb4rd> absent-mindedness is concentration on sth else
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19:43:26 <itidus21> meditation is supposed to be able to help you think by thinking
19:43:57 <hagb4rd> wait..don't we have to stop thinking during such a session?
19:44:11 <olsner> in today's episode of Enterprise: vulcan zombies
19:44:14 <atriq> itidus21, do we call them chairs because we sit on them, or do we sit on them because they are called chairs?
19:44:42 <zzo38> We call them chairs because that is the word for them, I think. Isn't it?
19:44:55 <hagb4rd> they chairs are chairs as long as we _think_ of them as chairs and not tables
19:44:59 <itidus21> atriq: we sit on chairs mostly to conform with social conventions
19:45:28 <itidus21> but then the question turns to why social conventions converge on chairs
19:45:36 <olsner> we sit on chairs because our floors are improperly heated
19:45:41 <hagb4rd> its not really social.. its just functional
19:46:05 <itidus21> to avoid chaos everyone has to agree what is a chair
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19:46:23 <olsner> let's play #esoteric-chairs
19:47:42 <itidus21> i actually did put "some" thought into this once,
19:48:20 <olsner> into the definition of chair?
19:48:33 <itidus21> i don't know what to quite call it
19:48:44 <hagb4rd> no.. into the hell of a chair!
19:49:13 <hagb4rd> when the doors of perception are cleansed everythings appears to man as it is infinite
19:49:21 <itidus21> i can throw a few more words in to show how the ideas were forming to me
19:49:24 <hagb4rd> which is less then 1 i guess
19:49:43 <itidus21> psychogeography.. i was wondering what that infact was... parkour.. drifters..
19:50:15 <itidus21> and from my bookmarks i see the words derive and flaneur
19:51:44 <itidus21> i didnt quite figure out whatever it was i was trying to figure out
19:51:53 <olsner> hmm, combining parkour and flaneur sounds interesting
19:54:11 <olsner> i.e. a slow walking kind of parkour, I imagine it would be very fluid and graceful and involve monocles
19:56:05 <atriq> That sounds hilarious
19:56:10 <atriq> Pythonesque, almost
19:56:30 <olsner> "The flâneur and the traceur (a parkour practitioner) both have their origins in Paris. In the nineteenth century the flâneur walked the city in order to experience it and over 150 years later traceurs in the Parisian suburbs found new ways of moving through the very same spaces."
19:56:32 <atriq> I'm just imagine people in monocles slowly walking up a wall and down the other side
19:56:38 <olsner> the time for the flaneurtraceur is nigh
20:01:28 <hagb4rd> walking the walls up and down is a small time. but no clue where to get a monocle at this time
20:02:04 <atriq> Buy a cheap pair of glasses and snap them in two
20:02:10 <atriq> And tie a cord to it
20:02:15 <itidus21> i was hopping around wiki at that time
20:03:58 <itidus21> the general question, applied back to chairs i guess was, if you choose to ignore knowing that such things are chairs and you can sit on them, are there new ways you can define the environment and the ways you move around it
20:04:56 <itidus21> and that sentence was quite long winded
20:04:58 <hagb4rd> the point is: you would surely place your ass on it to sit down, even without knowing it is a chair
20:05:16 <hagb4rd> so we don't have to agree to it beeing a chair
20:05:35 <hagb4rd> its not a social convention
20:05:48 <hagb4rd> but a social convention wp
20:06:14 <hagb4rd> would be not to piss on a grave
20:06:38 <itidus21> ok heres a specific example. in a restaurant its not ok to sit on the table
20:06:53 <hagb4rd> (although some gravestones would make perfect toilets)
20:07:10 <hagb4rd> thats a social convention yes
20:07:20 <itidus21> and if i can trust tv which i can't, if a woman sits on your desk she is flirting
20:07:25 <hagb4rd> but o dont think this leads us anywhere
20:07:42 <itidus21> well the table could be a chair....
20:07:47 <hagb4rd> but no way leads any where
20:07:56 <hagb4rd> one way is the way with heart
20:08:38 <hagb4rd> although both lead nowhere
20:09:28 <itidus21> i guess that the table is there for a reason too
20:10:20 <hagb4rd> if you're looking for things not having any purpose: y don't take a i-pad
20:12:09 <itidus21> another thought i had was whether theres things humans can do which we just havent thought of
20:13:44 <itidus21> on a certain scale the body is mostly muscles and bones, and.. presumably each joint gets used regularly
20:14:15 <itidus21> so it seems unlikely that there is much more we can do with it
20:14:41 <itidus21> i think parkour does challenge this a bit
20:15:19 <itidus21> and some circus performers can do some amazing things
20:18:42 <itidus21> and then theres the fun which can be had with machines
20:22:27 <itidus21> roller skates, skateboards, pogosticks, bicycles, unicycles, stilts, grappling hooks, segways, elevators, escalators
20:22:30 <itidus21> The plural of ski is either ski or skis. Frequently the plural is erroneously written skiis, owing no doubt to the fact that the double i occurs in skiing, the present participial form.
20:22:37 <oerjan> basically there are professions whose _job_ it is to find out such things, which means it's unlikely to have been ignored for not looking...
20:24:02 <oerjan> hm in norwegian the plural is ski, although it's not a neuter noun (which would have made it regular.)
20:24:38 <itidus21> i had to google it cos skis just seems so weird
20:26:41 <itidus21> this is all atriq's fault for asking me a question about chairs
20:26:51 <atriq> Of the 8 esolangs I have created
20:27:10 <atriq> And the remaining 1 is string-rewriting
20:27:15 <atriq> And not actually that esoteric
20:27:39 <atriq> I'd say it's about as esoteric as Thue
20:29:24 <itidus21> oerjan: for me, the interest is not in actually moving about in the environment, but in video gaming
20:30:13 <atriq> Fueue and Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download are my two favourite esolangs I have created
20:30:57 <oerjan> itidus21: but then why restrict to what can be done with a body? >:)
20:32:24 <hagb4rd> maybe because of piracy is killing intellectual property rights
20:32:50 <atriq> I'm not sure if anyone's talking at eachother or if we're just talking
20:34:29 <hagb4rd> well real fast nora's hair salon 3 sounds interesting
20:35:10 <atriq> It's a functional programming language with the same motivation as BIT
20:35:53 <Sgeo> I should probably find food to eat
20:36:00 <Sgeo> Rather than pretending that food is optional
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20:37:01 <itidus21> as an example.. (better math notation skills would be handy here.. ) given (x,y) then (x(succ),y) and (x(pred),y) mean walking right and left respectively
20:37:58 <atriq> It doesn't handle collisions at all, though
20:38:05 <atriq> And assumes distances are discrete
20:38:42 <itidus21> is hard to avoid in a video game
20:39:38 <itidus21> it look so elegant expressed that way though ...
20:41:01 <itidus21> i guess its the same as (x+1,y) and (x-1,y)
20:41:02 <atriq> (x,y) -> (x++, y), (x--, y)
20:43:33 <atriq> Well, it's goodnight from me!
20:43:37 -!- atriq has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:44:00 <itidus21> oerjan: i have thought about this a bit
20:44:17 <itidus21> @ <oerjan> itidus21: but then why restrict to what can be done with a body? >:)
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20:50:57 <itidus21> specifically, the question of why things in a computer are modelled upon things in real life
20:52:56 <itidus21> looking at some windows apps, many things have an analogy to real life.. notepad, calculator, paint(like a canvas), folders,
20:55:02 <hagb4rd> i guess that is because if they wouldn't reflect the (actual state of) ideas of this world, we weren't even able to realize and abstract their patterns
20:55:55 <itidus21> i guess that just like how given (x,y) -> (x+c,y) where c != 0 inevitably coincides with walking... an array of values displayed as colours whereby we can change the values of those colours inevitably coincides with a canvas
20:57:07 <itidus21> fwiw i don't really know what the -> there means :D
20:57:28 <itidus21> i know its something to do with it being a function
20:57:54 <oerjan> > (\(x,y) -> (x+c,y)) (a,b)
21:00:41 <hagb4rd> everything big starts small
21:00:48 <hagb4rd> even the universe..so they say
21:02:32 * Arc_Koen adds to the "things to do when I have enough savings to buy a time machine" : check if the universe was really small at some point
21:05:57 <zzo38> How can anyone have enough savings to buy a time machine, if the price is infinite?
21:07:29 <itidus21> since my thought process isnt always clear, whats fascinating to me about such things is that, given a coordinate, any change to the coordinate is motion, any absence of changes to the coordinate is stasis
21:07:34 <Arc_Koen> I don't know, but I expect my future self to come with a solution and bring it to me
21:08:10 <itidus21> i cant quite explain why such things are puzzling to me
21:08:16 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:08:38 <itidus21> except that it involves no work on my part to make changes to coordinates mean motion
21:09:04 -!- kinoSi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:09:32 -!- kinoSi has joined.
21:09:32 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: just be careful not to accidentally become the small thing the universe grew from
21:10:22 <Arc_Koen> well *that* would be rewarding
21:10:41 <oerjan> perhaps, but also likely fatal
21:11:24 <Arc_Koen> well that would be a much more ironical way of dying than, say, a cancer or a car accident
21:11:28 <itidus21> and it takes no work on my part to make changes to an array of color values mean painting on a canvas
21:12:09 <Arc_Koen> like, "you used a self-generation time travel paradox to invent a time machine, and then the same paradox happened to create the universe (by killing you)"
21:13:00 <itidus21> so.. coordinates and color values are ways of treating numbers.... but i don't know what that means
21:13:04 <Arc_Koen> besides, if that's what happened and I don't fulfill my destiny, then isn't there a risk that the universe suddenly cease to exist?
21:13:19 <itidus21> i think thats where the work comes in
21:13:38 <itidus21> defining coordinates and colours
21:14:05 <Arc_Koen> > type coordinates = int * int
21:14:06 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `type'
21:15:23 <oerjan> perhaps the only universes which exist are those in which such an extremely unlikely paradox happened.
21:15:27 <hagb4rd> no, as its part you cannot dispatch this monad
21:15:30 <Phantom__Hoover> * Arc_Koen adds to the "things to do when I have enough savings to buy a time machine" : check if the universe was really small at some point
21:15:52 <Phantom__Hoover> Finding that out is equivalent to checking if it's finite at all.
21:16:44 <Arc_Koen> oh, you mean like some kind of "until you look at it it's much more complex"ish quantum thing?
21:17:08 <oerjan> i'd imagine that if the proliferating universes theory is correct, then each sub-universe, being created by one particular incident, is likely finite
21:17:23 <hagb4rd> well at least its much more simple until the mathematics look at it
21:17:30 <Arc_Koen> proliferating? as in breeding?
21:18:39 <hagb4rd> maybe and if the universe is goin all possible ways any time.. a vast amount of universes exits.. yes all of them
21:18:45 <oerjan> one theory is that every black hole created in this universe creates a new one in its singularity
21:19:23 <oerjan> (although because of time dilation, the new one is past the end of ours
21:20:37 <oerjan> and then there's something else about universes created by colliding branes
21:20:46 <itidus21> so given two octets, i can mean a coordinate (x,y) with 65536 unique positions, or a very small canvas with 256 unique colours per pixel, or i can mean two ascii text characters..
21:21:17 <Arc_Koen> that would be kind of depressing. instead of having a god or something of the like above us, we might have spawned between two molecules of a bottle of beer from a bigger universe :(
21:21:21 <itidus21> and these all seem to be total functions (of course i am rambling and i dont know what the words im using really quite mean)
21:22:13 <hagb4rd> <oerjan>one theory is that every black hole created in this universe creates a new one in its singularity <-- yes like that one. singularity goes a long way ;)
21:22:20 * oerjan wonders how beer got mentioned in this
21:24:44 <oerjan> itidus21: everything is encoded as something else, until you reach bits, and then you get to build those out of physical components, which are "encoded" with quantum particles.
21:24:44 <Arc_Koen> I mean, when I look at the landscape aroung my house and how it is very different in the day and in the night, but always so beautiful, and all that is caused by a star in the sky... that's how I like my universe
21:25:39 <oerjan> and encoding things as something else is the basic trick to proving languages turing-complete...
21:25:45 <hagb4rd> trying to check out this stellarium app (you may know it) i realized how fast the we're turning on earth. had some hard time to focus on beteigeuze while not paused
21:26:26 <Arc_Koen> oh yeah they had this question "what would happen if the earth stopped spinning all of a sudden"
21:26:34 <hagb4rd> never had a chance to use a real telescope
21:27:58 <oerjan> i think nothing much immediately; then our magnetic field would disappear; then our atmosphere.
21:27:59 <hagb4rd> but i will go and get one, after i've studied the sky virtually for some time
21:28:28 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: I think the conclusion was "everything would get sublimated, including the earth's mantel"
21:28:52 <hagb4rd> the magnetic sphere is created by the fluid (turning) part of the core.. thats true
21:29:17 <hagb4rd> but can anyone tell me why the earth is that hot inside?
21:29:42 <oerjan> there are far too many google hits for this question :P
21:30:16 <oerjan> hagb4rd: i've read that it's about half leftover heat from its creation, half radioactive isotopes
21:30:30 <hagb4rd> yea. and thats a poor explanation
21:31:10 <hagb4rd> i've heard a theory at last.. quite interesting. an underdog.
21:31:48 <hagb4rd> he talked about the small interaction of .. cmon which particle was it
21:32:42 <hagb4rd> it was about neutrinos heating up the earth
21:32:50 <hagb4rd> and neutrino as a power source
21:33:26 <oerjan> or maybe it was dark matter. i saw there was a theory that there might be places with enough of it to keep planets livable without stars
21:33:51 <oerjan> hagb4rd: i'm pretty sure they've calculated that to be insignificant.
21:34:49 <oerjan> iirc a neutrino passing through a light year of lead has about 50% chance of being absorbed.
21:35:13 <hagb4rd> yes hes theory was _based_ on that fact
21:35:26 <hagb4rd> where are the rest of themß
21:35:32 <olsner> a light year of lead sounds like it might collapse into a black hole or something
21:35:40 <oerjan> ...they're going straight _through_, duh
21:36:10 <oerjan> olsner: yeah yeah. although it doesn't have to be thick in the other directions...
21:36:26 <olsner> how thin would it have to be not to collapse into a black hole?
21:36:31 <Phantom__Hoover> <oerjan> or maybe it was dark matter. i saw there was a theory that there might be places with enough of it to keep planets livable without stars
21:36:55 <Phantom__Hoover> The gist of the theory is that dark matter could be made up of particles that are their own antiparticles and so annihilate with themselves.
21:37:26 <Phantom__Hoover> So they'd gather in large gravity wells and provide heat through annihilation.
21:37:58 <oerjan> hagb4rd: anyway surely someone has calculated how much uranium etc. is needed to keep the earth hot and found it not to be unreasonable.
21:38:12 <Phantom__Hoover> olsner, ooh, I totally know this but I forget exactly what it is.
21:38:34 <Phantom__Hoover> Think about it: near the middle, the lead's being pulled in both directions equally.
21:39:30 <hagb4rd> it's easily belived they already found an answer. but i'm sure there is somthing more to be known. and it's worth further investigation
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21:40:36 <oerjan> well what is known is that _very_ few neutrinos interact with the matter in our neutrino detectors. which means our earth would have to contain something that absorbed neutrinos better than ordinary matter in order to get any significant heating.
21:41:53 <oerjan> and there isn't any reason to believe the matter inside earth is _that_ different, is there...
21:42:02 <hagb4rd> hä? do you know the amount of neutrino passing the earth? and the power of 50% NOT going through? no? me neither
21:42:23 <hagb4rd> and can only recall parts of his argumentation
21:42:34 <hagb4rd> if you want to read more.. go and find some sources on thr
21:42:58 <oerjan> hagb4rd: um the earth isn't 1 light year in diameter. it is about 1/20 light second.
21:43:26 <oerjan> `frink (40000 km / pi) -> light seconds
21:45:01 <oerjan> > 0.5**(0.04247 / (365.2425*86400))
21:45:43 <oerjan> > 1-0.9999999990671482
21:46:25 <oerjan> so about a billionth of the neutrons passing through the earth in the middle might be absorbed, if it were made of lead.
21:48:43 <hagb4rd> okay. so how much energy would that be in kJ? do we know how much energy/mass a neutrino has?
21:51:49 <Phantom__Hoover> <hagb4rd> h? do you know the amount of neutrino passing the earth? and the power of 50% NOT going through? no? me neither
21:53:04 <hagb4rd> share it with me and my friends. please.
21:53:14 <Phantom__Hoover> A single solar neutrino has an energy on the order of 100keV-1MeV.
21:54:13 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: see above :P
21:55:09 <Phantom__Hoover> Meanwhile, 6.5e10 of those pass through the Earth at any given time.
21:57:12 <Phantom__Hoover> So... what is that, the kinetic energy of a paperclip held by someone on a walk?
21:57:59 * oerjan always approves of other people doing the work for him
21:58:21 <Phantom__Hoover> Now I don't know offhand what the radiative heat losses of Earth are, nor what proportion of that balances heat from the core, but I'm willing to bet that both are far, far, far, far more than 4 millijoules.
21:59:08 <hagb4rd> i want the radioactive theory to be approved .. please!
21:59:12 <Phantom__Hoover> hagb4rd, oh, also, the way I got that highly technical data? Wikipedia.
21:59:26 <Phantom__Hoover> Maybe your friend should check it before trying to do science.
22:00:03 <hagb4rd> stop talking about my friends casper
22:00:26 <hagb4rd> i wanted to point out the fact the reason for the hot earth is not finally clear
22:00:54 <oerjan> he may have seen the movie 2012, the top google hit for "neutrinos heating earth's core" is http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2009/11/13/in-2012-neutrinos-melt-earths-core-and-other-disasters/
22:01:17 <Phantom__Hoover> Sounds about right for hagb4rd's level of scientific expertise.
22:02:24 <HackEgo> 5.68021248000e+11 m^2 s^-2 kg (energy)
22:02:25 <oerjan> hagb4rd: fortunately they have plans for how to measure the amount of radioactivity in the earth's core, so they should be able to make it clear. guess how they'll measure it? with neutrinos.
22:03:16 <oerjan> beta radiation comes with neutrinos, you see.
22:03:31 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: well ok may be exaggerating slightly for dramatic effect.
22:03:53 <hagb4rd> which makes me recapitulate the first round
22:04:10 <hagb4rd> maybe its not the power of the neutrino
22:04:27 <hagb4rd> i have to watch this over again
22:05:11 <oerjan> hagb4rd: well ok but that's how _ordinary_ beta radiation works. and most of the neutrinos get away from the earth, so it will be a tiny fraction of the heating that's due to them.
22:06:43 <Phantom__Hoover> Also the neutrino doesn't have a side effect, it's the side effect of beta decay.
22:07:18 <hagb4rd> you talk as you would know every fact on this material.. ignoring the armies of true scientist gathering to capture just one of them to prove their mathematical disaster they have constructed
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22:08:44 <Phantom__Hoover> Or did you think those massive detectors were just for show?
22:08:58 <Phantom__Hoover> How do you think they got the energies without capturing some?
22:09:04 <oerjan> oh it's not quite 50% residue
22:09:07 <oerjan> "The Earth's internal heat comes from a combination of residual heat from planetary accretion (about 20%) and heat produced through radioactive decay (80%)"
22:09:17 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_gradient
22:09:47 <hagb4rd> what is about higgs? do they got one?
22:09:52 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:10:01 <hagb4rd> what is dark matter? what is matter?
22:10:09 <oerjan> hagb4rd: your "you talk" comment looks distinctly crackpot, i hope you didn't write it yourself.
22:12:15 <Phantom__Hoover> because they make no sense whatsoever when taken together.
22:12:29 <oerjan> well he _is_ disgusted.
22:13:19 -!- elliott has joined.
22:13:25 <elliott> as far as i can tell some really stupid argument is going on
22:13:25 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
22:13:36 <elliott> i am here to laugh at whoever is stupider but am too tired to tell which side that is
22:13:47 <shachaf> elliott: Laugh at me instead.
22:13:47 <oerjan> hagb4rd: sorry for insulting you. i don't think neutrinos are among the things that are still in doubt in physics, however. they were detected decades ago.
22:13:59 <elliott> wow i never noticed oerjan uses two spaces after dots
22:14:02 <shachaf> Neutrinos are faked by NASA.
22:14:02 <elliott> or is it only when you're being serious
22:14:07 <oerjan> some of their _properties_ still are, of course.
22:14:20 <shachaf> Like the property of existence!
22:14:33 <hagb4rd> i never said they were not discovered
22:14:35 <shachaf> If neutrinos are real how come there are still photons.
22:14:42 <oerjan> elliott: i use little punctuation when not serious i guess :P
22:15:03 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
22:15:05 <elliott> oerjan: how hard will i get kicked if i add a quote
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22:15:18 <Phantom__Hoover> it's because when he was young they used typewriters for irc
22:15:20 <oerjan> elliott: not very hard. there might be some swatting.
22:15:41 <elliott> that's the great thing about this channel
22:15:46 <elliott> it is practically impossible to ever get kicked from it
22:15:51 <elliott> that's also the terrible thing about this channel
22:16:12 <elliott> the terrible thing about this channel is oerjan
22:16:12 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: help me out <-- but for once i _am_ on one of the sides :/
22:16:23 <Phantom__Hoover> no you can get kicked quite easily if you try to get someone kicked who should be
22:16:33 <elliott> that was worth at least a kick
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22:16:53 <elliott> you have to work for your punishment, shachaf
22:17:26 <shachaf> oerjan is part of the neutrino conspiracy.
22:17:29 * oerjan is suddenly imagining shachaf as something from a lewis carroll book
22:17:30 <shachaf> That's why he won't kick me.
22:17:47 <elliott> oerjan: which side are you on
22:17:48 <shachaf> IF U BELIEVE IN NEUTRINOS U MUST KICK ME :"(
22:17:52 <elliott> also what is the argument actually
22:18:05 <elliott> i just went "oh i should do my daily glancing at #esoteric logs to see how terrible the channel has become" and woah
22:18:24 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: btw you have an extra _
22:18:36 <shachaf> elliott: Did you see my @tells?
22:18:42 <shachaf> Isn't that sentence great?
22:18:46 <oerjan> elliott: whether neutrinos have any significant part in the heating of earth's interior.
22:18:49 -!- Phantom__Hoover has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
22:18:50 <shachaf> Also I still want an answer to my question.
22:18:50 <elliott> shachaf: it's a pretty good sentence
22:19:01 <elliott> oerjan: that's way too much science for me
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22:19:33 <elliott> numbers are for ruining fun
22:19:53 <elliott> wow i see a conversation between the two best people who have nicknames with numbers in them in this log
22:20:14 <oerjan> elliott: well you have to admit that it's a pretty good argument against them heating up the core to calculate "um i get about 4 milliwatts"
22:20:31 <shachaf> elliott: Am I one of those people. :'(
22:20:32 <elliott> millis are the small ones right
22:20:53 <elliott> i'm a dumb C++ programmer so i don't know these things
22:20:59 <elliott> i rely on wise mathematicians to keep me straight
22:21:02 <oerjan> but it would be a good argument even it were mega, really.
22:21:05 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, if you hold a paperclip and walk forwards then its kinetic energy is ~4mW
22:21:18 <shachaf> template<typename T>T elliott(T T) { return T; }
22:21:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i never knew paperclips had enough power to heat the earth
22:21:23 <Phantom_Hoover> does that make sense to you or do i have to object-orient it
22:21:30 -!- ion has joined.
22:21:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: btw why am i tired at like 23:30
22:22:09 <elliott> you know i think C++ is actually an ok language in some respects
22:22:11 <elliott> i feel bad about saying this
22:22:22 <elliott> what did the clocks change
22:22:49 <hagb4rd> ok i've got the authors: Johannes von Buttlar and Konstantin Meyl
22:23:03 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: your house has undetectedly slipped into the north sea
22:23:14 <elliott> 19:30:32: <itidus21> even when category theory is all worked out, our descendants will evolve new levels of conciousness with which they must solve greater and greater riddles.... and the accomplishments of humans in what we currently call 2012 won't seem very helpful except in a retro kind of way
22:23:31 <elliott> i honestly can't tell whether this would make sense if i was less tired
22:23:35 <oerjan> probably because of neutrinos
22:23:38 <elliott> like it makes no sense but
22:23:43 <elliott> nothing makes much sense to me right now
22:24:02 <elliott> oerjan: can i come visit in trondheim
22:24:14 <elliott> oerjan: i'm all soured and cynical
22:25:15 <oerjan> sorry, i am too soured and cynical myself to see visitors
22:25:20 <Phantom_Hoover> trondheim is the perfect name for a place to be soured and cynical
22:25:23 <elliott> oerjan: great! see you then
22:25:34 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: that _is_ true.
22:25:53 <elliott> it's ok i'll just go on a trip to norway and HAPPEN to pass through trondheim
22:26:07 <elliott> and HAPPEN to spend all day covering every inch of the place until i run into oerjan BY COMPLETE COINCIDENCE ISN'T IT AMAZING?!?!?!?!??!!!
22:26:17 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but will you and oerjan be able to share his cardboard box
22:26:34 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean there's not much demand in trondheim for a beggar who can't even integrate
22:27:10 <elliott> i have some life wisdom to dispense
22:27:12 <oerjan> i doubt most of the beggars in trondheim can integrate, being romanian roma
22:27:36 <oerjan> admittedly they're not much in demand either
22:27:44 <Phantom_Hoover> i didn't say there was much supply for integrating beggars either
22:27:56 <elliott> you know how everything sometimes seems like crap
22:28:02 <elliott> that all goes away when you're tired!!!
22:28:05 <elliott> that's my life tip of the ay
22:28:06 <oerjan> life wisdom never comes when you're ready anyway
22:29:56 <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/wiki/SMITH_Turing-completeness_proof_sketch someone is encroaching on ur teriotry
22:30:28 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!&curid=1671&diff=33689&oldid=20842 great editg
22:31:59 <elliott> oerjan: oddly enough another thing that goes away when you're tired is your left ear
22:32:09 <elliott> itst the mysteries of creaiotn that bind us all together
22:32:35 <elliott> 17:52:00: <olsner> they added some cheesy backing track, I suppose they intended to make it "fuller" or something but it sounds more like they found the make-a-beat button on the keyboard
22:32:38 <elliott> olsner: i love that fucking button
22:33:03 <elliott> i'm imagining a wonderful crappy keyboard beat underneath the enterprise theme now
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22:35:43 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: oddly enough another thing that goes away when you're tired is your left ear <-- well i've noticed mine starts ringing when i'm tired and many people are speaking...
22:39:19 <elliott> what more proof do you need
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22:41:09 <hagb4rd> i want to touch the wounds
22:41:57 <Arc_Koen> so hum proving that all programs in a certain language are bound to terminate is a proof that that language is not turing complete?
22:43:47 <elliott> however, proving that not all programs in a language terminate is not a proof of turing completeness
22:43:57 <elliott> (i.e., there are languages with non-halting programs that are still not powerful enough to be TC)
22:44:00 <elliott> (but you must have non-halting programs to be TC)
22:44:30 <oerjan> subtle cough is a simple example
22:45:01 <elliott> some people might not consider it simple :)
22:45:19 <oerjan> well a _small_ example, then :P
22:46:23 <oerjan> also this assumes that the language is actually implementable and that termination means that the implementation also terminates.
22:47:19 <oerjan> otherwise you get into semantics of what termination means for very abstract models
22:47:20 <hagb4rd> the greatest variety of phenomena from the smallest amount of principles
22:48:41 <oerjan> i also recall 0x29a which was TC but the functional subset alone wasn't
22:48:51 <Arc_Koen> elliott: however, proving that not all programs in a language terminate is not a proof of turing completeness I think HQ9+ misses an infinite loop instruction
22:49:20 <elliott> i am reminded of oerjan's HQ9+ variant
22:50:14 <Arc_Koen> btw, what the hell does the + do?
22:50:32 <fizzie> Increments the accumulator, doesn't it?
22:51:20 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: that's the joke.
22:52:06 <fizzie> I suppose it's all very philosophical.
22:52:47 <fizzie> Gregor: I tried to have a Portland food cart lunch today, but all the other people wanted to go somewhere where they can sit down and have a beer. Perhaps tomorrow.
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23:01:26 <oerjan> but what if i used a time machine to work for Carême?
23:01:39 <elliott> oerjan: i am going to bed now
23:01:47 <elliott> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
23:02:04 <elliott> have a nice day everybody except the bad people
23:02:39 <shachaf> elliott: Did you answer my cryptography question yet. :'(
23:02:43 <shachaf> elliott: Also am I bad people?
23:02:47 <oerjan> darn elliott always excluding us villains
23:03:08 <elliott> oerjan: don't worry i was thinking of people who weren't you
23:03:44 <shachaf> elliott: Stream ciphers and disk encryption and all that.
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23:24:54 <kmc> still getting the hang of tmux
23:30:44 <shachaf> kmc: So I wrote that program in Haskell (mostly).
23:31:04 <shachaf> Halfskell halfC, anyway. There are no XInput bindings.
23:32:48 <shachaf> Did all my kmc:s before get through?
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23:37:22 <oerjan> all the ones i saw got through
23:37:48 * kmc checks logs
23:37:55 <kmc> shachaf: you're right that I probably don't need to check the event type
23:38:33 <kmc> @tell elliott yes, it does break these consequences of Fitt's law, but personally I don't use the screen edges that much -- I already have keyboard shortcuts for tab bar and scrolling
23:38:39 <zzo38> O, 7-zip can unpack many file types, and the common ones (tape archive, gzip, zip, etc) can be used with packing as well.
23:38:47 <kmc> @tell elliott i mainly use the mouse for clicking links in the middle of web pages, ymmv of course
23:39:08 <kmc> shachaf: what did you write in Haskell? a screen wrappy thing?
23:39:46 <shachaf> It's mostly a port of the C code.
23:40:09 <shachaf> The X11 bindings are both incomplete and low-levelish.
23:41:09 <zzo38> 7-Zip can even unpack Macintosh disk images, which I have once had to do; the music for PySol is in this format for some reason I don't know.
23:42:04 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/wrap/Main.hs http://slbkbs.org/wrap/cbits.c
23:43:47 <shachaf> kmc: Anyway I'm trying it and it's weird.
23:43:55 <shachaf> Maybe it's be more useful if I had more screens.
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23:50:08 <kmc> i am used to it and so i use it even on the small laptop screen
23:53:29 <kmc> i learned that you can set the window title in screen/tmux with \ek<title>\e
23:53:40 <kmc> i don't know what this escape code is called
23:53:54 <kmc> it's not the one used by xterm to set the window title
23:54:01 <kmc> it's not in the xterm escape codes file
23:57:05 <zzo38> Is there ROM chips having a second address/data bus?
00:01:36 <shachaf> http://habrahabr.ru/post/151203/
00:03:30 <kmc> shachaf: this is a gif which is also a wav?
00:04:20 <shachaf> They used my GIF player thing for it. It almost makes me want to make it not so dreadfully inefficient.
00:05:11 <kmc> you wrote jsgif?
00:06:35 <shachaf> I was annoyed at not being able to step frame-by-frame through animations.
00:07:04 <shachaf> I think it was some of the sorting algorithm animations on Wikipedia.
00:07:13 <shachaf> Then I decided to do something entirely client-side.
00:12:29 <kmc> huh, I downloaded 152 GB last night
00:12:34 <kmc> i hope my ISP is ok with that
00:14:23 <itidus21> some nights you get so web-drunk that 152gb just gets downloaded before you know it
00:14:58 <kmc> also i have about 108 GB of DVDs i want to rip, and no space for them
00:17:07 <itidus21> i guess that 152gb is feasible
00:18:41 <kmc> it took about 16.5 hours
00:19:17 <itidus21> i suppose that downloading could be fun if you had no reason to stop
00:20:52 <kmc> i don't know how to rip DVDs :/
00:21:23 <kmc> i just want to decrypt the VOBs and leave them intact otherwise; it looks like vobcopy can do this
00:21:34 * kmc cyber-criminal
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00:23:20 <itidus21> although the laws may be clear on these matters, i think maybe new words are needed to help discriminate the various types of property trading now possible in digital age
00:25:47 <shachaf> kmc: apt-get install dvdbackup
00:26:30 <Jafet> That reminds me, I need to get vlc from debian-multimedia
00:27:53 <kmc> shachaf: cool
00:28:47 <itidus21> questions like: did you pay? were you expected to pay? is there a physical embodiment? is it computer data? do they know you took it? did they expect you not to take it? does the person who traded it away still have it?
00:29:40 <itidus21> words like buy and download simply don't represent all these ideas very unambiguously
00:34:02 * kmc consumes a delicious butter-sugar-chocolate food disc
00:35:35 <oerjan> would you like a defibrillator with that?
00:35:38 <Jafet> You gluttonous consumer
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00:48:27 <kmc> yeah i ate one cookie, i'm gonna die of a heart attack for sure
00:50:30 <oerjan> if you don't die of a heart atteck, it wasn't delicious enough!
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01:07:28 <kmc> do common UNIX-like systems all support invoking the "default" C compiler as cc?
01:11:04 <Jafet> The default compiler may be cc, but your default compiler is always gcc.
01:11:43 <kmc> even on recent OS X? what about solaris?
01:11:53 <kmc> anyway i'm asking "can i write cc in a shell script and have it dtrt"
01:11:56 <Jafet> Well, I have no idea
01:12:15 <Jafet> Why not use CC anyway
01:12:40 <kmc> $CC isn't typically set in the shell
01:12:44 <kmc> shell, not makefile
01:12:52 <kmc> perhaps bonghits will fix my build script
01:13:28 <Jafet> Yeah, so set it at the top
01:14:00 <kmc> that doesn't get me anything
01:14:58 <Jafet> It's easier to fix then
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01:18:08 <kmc> ah yes but i'm only invoking cc once in this script
01:18:24 <oerjan> http://www.gsp.com/cgi-bin/man.cgi?section=1&topic=c89 says there should be one named c89
01:19:35 <Jafet> I forgot about posix
01:19:55 <Jafet> cygwin does not provide c89.
01:20:09 <Jafet> If you give a shit
01:20:26 <pikhq> oerjan: That tool does not exist in current POSIX, only older versions of POSIX.
01:20:28 <oerjan> the cc link in the above redirects to gcc fwiw
01:20:34 <pikhq> POSIX 2008 specifies c99 however.
01:20:38 <oerjan> pikhq: sheesh. so what ... ok
01:20:41 <kmc> Jafet: does it provide cc?
01:20:56 <kmc> do the POSIX c89 / c99 also have standard command-line syntax?
01:21:17 <pikhq> kmc: They function as you expect.
01:21:26 <pikhq> It does not provide cc I don't think.
01:21:56 <pikhq> However, real-world UNIX-like systems generally have cc.
01:22:08 <pikhq> ${CC:=cc} would be the right thing.
01:22:15 <pikhq> Or ${CC:=c99} if you mean C99.
01:22:21 <Jafet> cc is usually assumed to be gcc, or be a compiler that works like gcc
01:22:37 <pikhq> (${CC:=cc} evaluates to CC, or cc if CC is unset, and if CC is unset, sets CC to cc.)
01:23:47 <kmc> i'll use ${CC:-cc}
01:24:06 <pikhq> Worst-case scenario someone has to tell it the compiler.
01:25:43 <Jafet> Or you can do what configure scripts do
01:25:52 <Jafet> "Checking for usable C compiler..."
01:26:15 <Jafet> I don't even know why configure scripts do that
01:32:30 <kmc> to fail earlier, maybe
01:39:24 <pikhq> Jafet: It's dain bramage.
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01:56:59 <itidus21> occasioanlly some people know quite a lot of languages and known as polyglots
01:57:51 <itidus21> according to WP, Nikola Tesla could speak Serbian, Czech, English, French, German, Hungarian, Italian, and Latin.
01:58:14 <itidus21> Dr Jos Rizal (18611896), could speak 22 languages.
01:58:55 <pikhq> Hmm, a whole 4 language families on Tesla.
01:59:26 <itidus21> now the thought i have is, are there computer-programmer equivalents to this Dr Jose Rizal
01:59:44 <pikhq> What, you mean programmers that know 22 languages?
02:00:02 <itidus21> whereby, it is not simply that they have read 22 sams programming books
02:00:17 <pikhq> ... Again, trivially.
02:00:19 <itidus21> but they have some advanced capacity
02:00:34 <pikhq> I think Gregor's nearing that point in programming languages *implemented*.
02:00:44 <pikhq> Gregor: Oy, how many programming languages have you done?
02:00:58 <pikhq> Count esolangs, those were interesting and nontrivial.
02:01:02 <Jafet> Programming languages are mostly dialects of each other
02:02:33 <itidus21> apparently daniel tammet learned icelandic in a week
02:02:53 <pikhq> From what I understand, he learned basic icelandic in a week.
02:03:02 <Jafet> Sam's Learn Icelandic in 7 Days
02:03:14 <itidus21> which is probably not that difficult eh :P media exaggerations?
02:03:21 <pikhq> Which TBH is about the rate anyone could learn basic bits in nearly any language.
02:03:39 <pikhq> Except maybe ones with really hard (for them) phonemes...
02:05:54 <itidus21> i guess what i am pondering is whether programming is something you can be good at to such a degree that they make a film like rainman about you
02:06:08 <kmc> being good at programing != knowing a lot of programming languages
02:06:22 <kmc> amazing how common this confusion is
02:06:24 <itidus21> kmc: well thats fair enough. i won't dispite that
02:06:32 <kmc> in truth, which programming language you use just doesn't matter much
02:06:32 <pikhq> And Rainman was not exactly a documentary. :)
02:07:11 <pikhq> But if you want someone like that, uh...
02:09:43 <kmc> when programmers get famous in popular (non-programmer) culture, it's not typically for being extraordinarily good at programming
02:10:13 <kmc> usually they made something boring and derivative which became extremely popular
02:10:14 <itidus21> so i think they don't have a name for what fabrice has done
02:10:23 <kmc> either through luck or through clever but non-programming-related decisions
02:10:29 <kmc> mark zuckerberg, linus torvalds, bill gates
02:10:50 <kmc> these people might be excellent programmers (i've heard gates in particular is), but that's not actually why they're famous
02:12:21 <itidus21> it seems one article title labeled him "super-productive programmer" but i sure hope that title doesn't become common
02:13:00 <lambdabot> *** "prolific" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
02:13:00 <lambdabot> adj 1: intellectually productive; "a prolific writer"; "a fecund
02:13:01 <lambdabot> imagination" [syn: {fecund}, {fertile}, {prolific}]
02:13:01 <lambdabot> 2: bearing in abundance especially offspring; "flying foxes are
02:13:02 <lambdabot> extremely prolific"; "a prolific pear tree" [syn: {prolific},
02:15:42 <pikhq> kmc: I name Bellard as it in particular just because any *one* project of his would be a moderately impressive feat.
02:16:00 <pikhq> Or insanely impressive...
02:16:04 <pikhq> qemu, for instance.
02:16:20 <pikhq> Which is strictly speaking an overgrown side project of tcc.
02:16:45 <Jafet> Which was an overgrown side project of an ioccc entry
02:17:12 <pikhq> (qemu grew out of Bellard's attempts to write a somewhat more generic backend scheme for tcc... He realised that if he just stuck a disassembler on the front of it he'd have an emulator, and tada.)
02:19:57 <kmc> pikhq: yeah
02:20:09 <kmc> shachaf: did what work?
02:20:31 <kmc> i don't have the DVDs yet
02:20:34 <kmc> they are arriving tomorrow
02:20:57 <kmc> The Wire: The Complete Series on 23 DVDs
02:21:46 <itidus21> 23dvds... thats quite a signifigant number of dvds
02:22:30 <kmc> that is possibly the most profound thing i have ever heard in my life
02:22:57 <kmc> they don't have it on blu-ray
02:23:08 <kmc> but i can get _Man on Wire_ on blu-ray which is also good
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02:27:39 <kmc> i don't know if these are DVD-5 but it is plausible
02:27:43 <kmc> it's about 61 hours of video
02:30:08 <shachaf> kmc: Is this related to the hundreds of GBs you downloaded recently?
02:31:56 <kmc> "is that like DVDA"
02:34:11 * kmc is slowly installing perl and git on a FreeBSD EC2 micro instance
02:34:18 <kmc> this is gentoo before gentoo was a thing
02:34:41 <kmc> shachaf: i spent yesterday pimping my bash prompt, what else should i add?
02:35:35 <shachaf> kmc: Last command exit status indicator?
02:36:34 <kmc> i have that,
02:36:45 <kmc> the usual $ turns into a red '!' if the last command failed
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02:37:14 <kmc> it also displays the hostname and the working directory (with custom abbreviations)
02:37:23 <kmc> and the latter is used as the tmux / screen window name
02:38:48 <shachaf> Sounds like a productive day.
02:39:00 * shachaf 's prompt is '\u@\h:\w\$ '
02:40:38 <kmc> maybe i should switch to zsh, it has better hooks for fancy stuff
02:41:09 <shachaf> I've tried a couple times but it's such a hassle.
02:42:19 * shachaf = old and set in ways. :-(
02:42:40 <kmc> yeah, before yesterday i was using a prompt i had stole from i think Red Hat 6.x
02:42:50 <kmc> probably used that prompt for 10 years
02:42:59 <Jafet> PROMPT="%(?..%B%F{red}[%?]%f%b) %B%F{blue}$USER@%2m%f%b:%B%2c%b %F{magenta}%*%f%# "
02:43:02 <kmc> wait no i used some wacky gentoo prompt for a while
02:43:32 <shachaf> Oh, those had fancy colours.
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02:47:38 <Jafet> Obligatory link to http://eseth.org/2009/nethack-term.html
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03:53:16 <itidus21> http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/08/06 this somehow feels cogent
04:05:41 <itidus21> much much less funny when i realize that zyngis is a reference to zynga, and that zynga's logo is a dog
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05:22:24 <kmc> gah stupid freebsd, this is taking forever and it's not even funrolling my loops
05:23:27 <kmc> Content-type: application/octet-stream
05:23:30 <kmc> Content-type: dunno/lol
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05:37:51 <kmc> huh wow http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/09/10/aig-stock-sale-vindicates-treasury-bailout.html
06:35:23 <zzo38> I do not like this word "metric ton"; it should not be called a "ton", a "tonne", or a "metric ton"; it should be called a "megagram", isn't it?
06:37:43 <pikhq> I prefer megagram.
06:38:02 <pikhq> Same number of syllables, but much more systematic.
06:38:50 <pikhq> Also, whoever put US traditional units in my most recent chem assignment should be shot.
06:38:56 <shachaf> My megagramma has a megagramo' stuff in her system attic.
06:39:22 <pikhq> Science = fuck you, I want sane units.
06:39:23 <Sgeo> I thought "metric ton" was a figure of speech
06:39:31 <pikhq> Sgeo: No, it's a megagram.
06:40:02 <pikhq> It's a non-SI unit accepted for use with SI.
06:40:44 <shachaf> A metric tone us one defined using decibels instead of cents.
06:42:03 <zzo38> How is that? I don't think that works.
06:42:54 <zzo38> O, is that how it works?
06:48:19 <fizzie> Where does that come from?
06:50:17 <shachaf> Cents are pretty metric already, actually.
06:50:24 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent_(music)
06:51:00 <shachaf> fizzie: It's very simple, really.
06:51:11 <shachaf> An octave is called an octave because it's divided into 12 parts.
06:51:27 <fizzie> Yes, the link was enough.
06:51:34 <shachaf> Those parts are called semitones.
06:51:42 <shachaf> Seven semitones make a fifth, and five semitones make a fourth.
06:51:57 <shachaf> (A perfect fifth and a perfect fourth, that is.)
06:52:02 <fizzie> That certainly makes sense.
06:52:06 <zzo38> s/fifth/equal-tempered perfect fifth/
06:52:45 <shachaf> A perfect fifth is a factor of 3/2, but they approximate it by 2^(7/12)
06:53:07 <zzo38> Well, a just perfect fifth is 3/2. An equal-tempered perfect fifth is 2^(7/12).
06:53:29 <fizzie> Does anyone ever use decibels for ratios of frequencies?
06:53:54 <zzo38> Is it possible to use decibels for ratios of frequencies?
06:54:14 <shachaf> I doubt anyone ever uses cents for anything but ratios of frequencies.
06:54:27 <shachaf> Despite the fact that 2 is a much more sensible base for your logarithm than 10!
06:54:40 <shachaf> It's much more natural, when you're dealing with integers.
06:55:50 <fizzie> Apparently people use "dB-Hz" for measuring bandwidth; it's relative to 1 Hz.
06:56:45 <fizzie> 30 dB-Hz is a kilohertz.
06:57:12 <fizzie> Though there's no citation for this, so maybe someone just invented it for Wikipedia.
07:00:15 <pikhq> Meh, screw the decibel. Base 10 log is silly.
07:00:29 <pikhq> ln and lb por favor
07:01:00 <shachaf> Don't forget to divide by 12.
07:01:45 <zzo38> O, now I can see how dB-Hz can be used like that. But I have never heard of it before.
07:04:25 <itidus21> more fun is multiplication by 10
07:05:01 <itidus21> but i know it won't always work
07:20:40 <zzo38> If you know they are integers, it could be used, such as a shell script dd count=`wc -l`0 ...
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08:14:50 <itidus21> i disagree with reason 2 in Joel's software link, "They create to many exit points in a function", you still have just as many exit points if not more with C only code not using exceptions
08:22:15 <soundnfury> well, Joel exists purely for the purpose of being disagreed with
08:22:44 <shachaf> soundnfury: You should have a nick with numbers in it.
08:23:47 <soundnfury> have to keep it the same as my NAO username
08:24:00 <soundnfury> so's I get alerted when Rodney reports my deaths
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09:33:27 <soundnfury> wow... apparently someone at the /New Yorker/ knows about diareses ("reënter")
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09:54:22 <itidus21> hm... tidus was registered at least
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11:13:56 <itidus21> i was watching a show this morning
11:14:51 <itidus21> "i live in america" "i thought you lived in new york" "new york is in america"
11:29:46 <Arc_Koen> itidus21: I'm pretty sure you're wrong, I have a map of the United Kingdom here and there's a city named York... Sur New York must be in the uk too
11:32:03 <itidus21> it was some old show with zsa zsa gabor
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12:17:22 <Phantom_Hoover> New York is the name for the new construction in York made in the late 1700s.
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15:01:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh my god viddler have started charging for any account using over 2GB of bandwidth per month.
15:07:44 <Phantom_Hoover> If more than 2GB of bandwidth is spent watching your videos, they email you saying you have to pay up or they'll delete the account.
15:08:46 <kmc> and you think everyone will just leave viddler?
15:11:46 <Phantom_Hoover> And that was being asked of a fairly small Let's Play outfit.
15:13:05 <Phantom_Hoover> So whilst holding customers who don't have backups to ransom might work, something tells me it's not going to work for long.
15:19:18 <Arc_Koen> Phantom_Hoover: so first people pay 50$ for 200GB, and then suddenly they're told their 50$ cover only for the first 2GB, and the remaining 198GB have to be paid again?
15:37:59 <pikhq> And the Youtube threshold is infinity.
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15:40:58 <lambdabot> atriq: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
15:41:06 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen said 16h 48m 32s ago: "Brook... with the gimmick that the program can produce and immediately execute a potentially infinite length program written in Brook." I'm not sure what you mean -
15:41:07 <lambdabot> when I look at the instruction set I feel like it's basically Fueue, except the program and the data queue are separated. what am I missing?
15:41:07 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen said 16h 32m 1s ago: oh and I noticed the truth-machine fueue program from the truth-machine wiki page doesn't work. it first tries to print "-48", then (assuming the interpreter hasn't
15:41:07 <lambdabot> crashed already) turns into a cat (because the two main blocks are never unblocked, the ($ turns into [$], and the + never has two arguments
15:41:27 <Arc_Koen> turns out the two messages were from the same user, sorry :(
15:41:41 <atriq> Arc_Koen, Brook is a lot more like brainfuck with a different kind of loop
15:42:12 <atriq> And also, I never tested the truth-machine in Fueue
15:42:19 <atriq> Other than just writing it out
15:42:21 <Arc_Koen> yes but did you mean that brook could modify its own code?
15:42:36 <atriq> It sort of emits a new program which is run first
15:42:48 <atriq> And has access to a different tape
15:42:57 <Arc_Koen> well I tested it with both my interpreters, the C one turned into a cat while the ocaml one raised Failure "char_of_int"
15:43:27 <Arc_Koen> so I looke dmore closely and noticed yoru program tried to print -48, and the blocks were never unblocked
15:43:40 <atriq> Ah, that's a problem
15:43:48 <atriq> I was probably asleep when I wrote it, heh
15:43:57 <atriq> Unlike what my user page says, I'm not a super human.
15:44:04 <atriq> I just provide an alternative male perspective.
15:44:26 <Arc_Koen> I think a truth-machine is quite hard to implement in fueue, because of the "one complete no-op rotation" you have to have in order to get input, and then this input alone is supposed to de-no-op the queue
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15:46:09 <Arc_Koen> and input are numeric values, which can only interfere with +, -, *, /, %, $, but none of those commands would deblock anything
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15:46:54 <Arc_Koen> also I was wondering: where does the "F" in fueue come from ?
15:47:08 <atriq> It stands for "functional"
15:48:50 <Arc_Koen> well i'll try to look into Brook again but as someone pointed out on the talk page it's quite hard to understand :p
15:49:23 <atriq> It was designed to be tricky
15:49:28 <atriq> And hard to prove Turing-complete
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17:02:22 <fizzie> There was a keynote computer music guy from CMU today.
17:03:27 <fizzie> Some Roger B. Dannenberg guy, been doing Audacity apparently.
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18:01:29 <atriq> Heard this today: "I googled it on Amazon"
18:06:41 <impomatic> Does anyone here edit code on Android? I've installed a few code editors, just wondering which one you prefer to work with?
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18:07:10 <olsner> edit code on android? sounds incredibly painful
18:10:20 <olsner> oh, with a real keyboard
18:10:44 <kmc> plenty of android devices have laptop-style keyboards
18:10:47 <kmc> e.g. eee pad transformer
18:10:55 <kmc> android runs on lots of different kinds of hardware
18:11:17 <kmc> in lithuania i rode a bus which had an android-based seat back entertainment system
18:11:25 <kmc> which was loaded with very obviously pirated music and movies
18:16:09 <impomatic> Has anyone tried one of those Laser projection keyboards?
18:18:03 <kmc> i have one; the bluetooth interface is proprietary
18:18:49 <kmc> some third party reverse engineered the protocol for the one i have, and they made a demo app but want you to pay money for actually using it
18:18:54 <kmc> and the performance in the demo app is shit
18:21:32 <olsner> in other words, happy reverse engineering to build your own?
18:22:06 <olsner> "it takes a while for changes to ripple through the timelines"
18:22:19 <olsner> eww, star trek is not supposed to be so timey wimey bally
18:23:27 <kmc> other models might have better interfgaces
18:23:51 <olsner> doctor who is at least overtly timey wimey
18:25:51 <olsner> err, and apparently they're going to be away from the enterprise while they're off time travelling, long enough to need an excuse ... can't they just return from the time they left?
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18:30:24 <olsner> oerjan: here, have some best practices: http://code.jonwagner.com/2012/09/11/best-practices-when-to-not-use-asynchronous-programming/
18:33:09 <impomatic> kmc: is that the celluon keyboard?
18:33:29 <kmc> the one i have? i don't think so, not sure
18:33:39 <kmc> i got it for free from someone who also couldn't get it to do anything useful ;P
18:33:45 <kmc> and it's sitting at the bottom of a box somewhere
18:33:55 <kmc> looks cool tho
18:34:43 <impomatic> Apparently one of them can be set as a virtual piano keyboard.
18:34:51 <oerjan> <atriq> Unlike what my user page says, I'm not a super human. <-- shocking
18:35:45 <oerjan> <Arc_Koen> I think a truth-machine is quite hard to implement in fueue, because of the "one complete no-op rotation" you have to have in order to get input, and then this input alone is supposed to de-no-op the queue
18:36:12 <oerjan> yeah i found out that would be awkward. although not so awkward that distinguishing _one_ character is impossible. hm...
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18:37:30 <oerjan> basically only $ is capable of doing nothing, then triggering on a single number appearing
18:43:56 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
18:46:00 <pikhq> http://www.toothycat.net/~hologram/Turing/HowItWorks.html YES!
18:46:04 <pikhq> Magic The Gathering is TC.
18:46:31 <atriq> So are bathroom tiles, fwiw
18:46:53 <atriq> (Well, Wang Tiles are)
18:47:22 <shachaf> kmc: How much of the keyboard thing is done in software?
18:47:42 <oerjan> i think after that wolfram TM etc. brouhaha i think i'd reserve the word "universal" instead of TC for those bathroom tiles
18:48:05 <oerjan> things get fishy when there's infinite setup or finish
18:48:45 <oerjan> well i guess there's a TC decision problem in there
18:48:54 <atriq> It's not strictly speaking halting
18:49:50 <atriq> But there's a way of translating turing machines to sets of tiles that tile the plane and only repeat if the turing machine halts or something
18:50:58 <oerjan> hm they repeat? i thought they couldn't tile the plane at all then, but i never learned that bit of the proof
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18:51:12 <oerjan> if oklopol were here he could tell us
18:52:15 <atriq> I'm not advanced enough in the arcane arts of mathematics to understand it, most likely
18:52:23 <atriq> I officially learnt about groups today
18:55:34 * oerjan turns atriq upside down, then twists him leftwards, then mirrors him
18:56:00 * oerjan then dies as atriq explodes as antimatter
18:56:19 * atriq becomes PURE ENERGY
18:56:32 <atriq> This is not as awesome as it sounds at all
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19:03:04 <atriq> I wonder if Pokemon cards are turing complete
19:06:42 <zzo38> I thought Magic: the Gathering is TC; now you told me for sure.
19:06:58 <zzo38> About Pokemon card, though, there is a limit to the number of cards so it might not be.
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19:17:14 <zzo38> I don't know that game well enough.
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19:27:18 <atriq> I don't think Sopio is
19:28:30 <atriq> Maybe you can use Junkyard Dave and get two queues like that, but then you'd need an infinite hand, which you can't have
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19:33:33 <olsner> so the MtG turing machine uses life counters (or whatever those numbers mean) to store cards' indexes in the queues, and pops the top card by hurting all cards by one and seeing what died
19:34:14 <hagb4rd> yes you'd need infinite credit. it would make it turing complete but on the other side it'd have some ruinous affect on inflation
19:35:57 <oerjan> atriq: Arc_Koen: plz test )$!![[)[~~~~()+1])])][[)[~H~+32])])][)~[0]]
19:37:09 <oerjan> well one of you at least
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19:40:07 * oerjan downloads the c interpreter
19:40:14 <atriq> Prints P for 0, Q for 1
19:41:01 <oerjan> and then halts without more input, right?
19:41:33 <atriq> Yeah, converts capital letters to lower case
19:41:37 <atriq> One letter at a time
19:41:45 <oerjan> good, then to replace the ~H~+32 part
19:47:10 <oerjan> trying to get fueue input working
19:47:21 <oerjan> and fix the truth machine
19:47:24 <pikhq> olsner: Basically.
19:47:48 <pikhq> olsner: And lazily expands the queues.
19:48:50 <olsner> yeah, I liked that, the most-alive card is one that expands the tape by spawning the appropriate other card when it dies
19:50:01 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: wait, the C interpreter is not the right version
19:50:32 <oerjan> oh. well it worked for this program.
19:51:50 <Arc_Koen> I seem to remember that important changes had been made since that version but I can't remember which
19:52:03 <Arc_Koen> apparently it's already imperative instead of recursive
19:52:13 <Arc_Koen> if you meet any problems please elt me know
19:54:55 <Arc_Koen> oh right, I think the main differences are the use of union types, and a memory leak fix
19:55:05 <Arc_Koen> which is particularly important for infinite loop
20:03:37 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: is the !! used to delay input?
20:04:16 <oerjan> it's used to fix the spot where the input will appear
20:04:42 <oerjan> by being the last thing to execute
20:05:14 <Arc_Koen> why not simply rotate the initial program to have the spot already at an extremity?
20:09:03 <Arc_Koen> when using --print it turns out the program goes a *very* long way before halting
20:10:07 <oerjan> it basically has do duplicate a number of blocks equal to the character read, then run them once, then run the leftovers once
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20:12:29 <oerjan> i don't see any other way than )$[...] of getting an input number into a form that can be handled
20:13:14 <oerjan> well maybe something with <$[...] could work but that's going to be even worse
20:14:50 <Arc_Koen> hmmm does fueue accept empty blocks?
20:14:53 <oerjan> and a ) is needed at some point anyway
20:15:22 <Arc_Koen> atriq: are empty blocks legal?
20:15:52 <atriq> I've never actually thought about this
20:16:04 <oerjan> i think it's just that since you don't need any other argument to create an empty block, there's no use having a function _other_ than [] for it
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20:16:52 <oerjan> just like underload doesn't have anything but () for it either
20:20:08 <Arc_Koen> well I'll have to revise my interpreter then
20:33:43 <oerjan> argh how does one get vim to ignore special characters in the substitution _string_?
20:33:57 <Arc_Koen> ok, the c interpreter had problems with deblocking empty blocks, but that's fixed
20:34:33 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: don't you have something to escape problematic characters?
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20:34:53 <oerjan> but i don't know _which_ characters are the problematic ones :(
20:35:15 <oerjan> [[)[~~~~()+1])])][[)[~H~+32])])][)~[0]])$
20:35:33 <oerjan> i cannot cut and paste from the : line :(
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20:49:47 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: could you replace fueue.c with http://sprunge.us/EIBh please? modifications include fixing a memory leak, using union types, and fixing an issue with empty blocks
20:51:09 <Arc_Koen> or maybe I should find a way to upload files myself I feel bad depending on you like that - is zzo38computer.cjb.net really your physical computer?
20:57:40 <zzo38> Yes it is my physical computer.
20:58:01 <oerjan> it works! [[)[~~~~()+1])])][[)$-----~1-[~:)~)[)[~:)~)]~:]:]~[~[$~H~~%~+])~48-):])~)~:])][)~[0]])$
20:58:04 <zzo38> (Actually it is a router, but ports 70, 80, 194, and some others are connected to my computer.)
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21:02:01 <olsner> let me guess, 70 is gopher?
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21:16:43 <Arc_Koen> is someone familiar with MarioLANG? I think http://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine#MarioLANG is missing =====
21:17:17 <Arc_Koen> without it I guess when input is '1' Mario would just die without outputting anything
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21:51:27 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: would seem so...
21:56:12 <oerjan> my sleuth skills tell me it was made by atriq http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Truth-machine&diff=30464&oldid=30434
21:57:32 <oerjan> something i'm also wondering is if you can take an elevator the other way after using it; that would also mess up things.
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22:33:03 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: I did not really understand how elevators worked exactly
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22:34:02 <Arc_Koen> but I guess the reason there are different symbols for the start and end of an elevator is that it only works one way
22:35:52 <Arc_Koen> besides, I'm guessing items are one-use only
22:36:58 <Arc_Koen> my confusion about elevators come from the first example: http://esolangs.org/wiki/MarioLANG#Commands_Explained
22:37:31 <Arc_Koen> why did he need a ! (stop walking) and why are there three # and three "
22:37:55 <Arc_Koen> it's an elevator as in the game
22:38:04 <Arc_Koen> when Mario steps on it it actually moves
22:38:15 <Arc_Koen> and it stop moving when it meets the "
22:38:59 <Arc_Koen> so it's like ground, except it can move once - but it's like ground, not like an object
22:39:15 <Arc_Koen> so in atriq's program it would probably work like a wall
22:41:12 <Arc_Koen> well the talk page is all about the elevator
22:45:44 <oerjan> not about the same question though
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22:46:43 <Arc_Koen> well it's about "your description of the elevator is incomplete and ambiguous"
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22:54:00 <oerjan> the lack of an implementation doesn't help.
22:58:07 <Arc_Koen> I'd make one if it were less ambiguous
22:58:56 <Arc_Koen> "move one space. take item. look what's under your feet. fall. move one space again"
23:00:14 <oerjan> however the truth machine _does_ seem to be in conflict with what's already written, not ambiguous.
23:00:37 <Arc_Koen> yup the truth machine is completely wrong
23:00:57 <Arc_Koen> but if items are one use only then I guess loops are not really possible
23:01:19 <oerjan> i don't think they can be, with the language being claimed TC
23:01:23 <Arc_Koen> the wiki page says it's turing complete but there is nothing that looks like a proof
23:02:05 <Arc_Koen> ok I'll guess I'll make a truth-machine with a comment about items
23:02:06 <oerjan> well it seems to have most of brainfuck + a flexible means of flow control, so it should be.
23:02:55 <oerjan> but indeed those are items, so cannot be one use only
23:03:26 <oerjan> there is simply no unbounded storage without unlimited items
23:05:53 <oerjan> oh hm and the examples on the page itself do seem to imply you need to stop walking to safely use an elevator...
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23:07:18 <Arc_Koen> like in super mario - if you keep walking you'll fall off while the elevator is moving
23:08:29 <oerjan> i'm wondering about the exact meaning of [ if you pass over an elevator...
23:09:01 <oerjan> i think i'll make a truth machine with less assumptions
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23:11:03 <Arc_Koen> elevators are parts, not commands
23:11:35 <Arc_Koen> it would be like "if [condition], skip the wall" "will do" "BAM"
23:13:10 <oerjan> except parts _are_ also listed under commands.
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23:13:53 <Arc_Koen> oh, I confused commands for instructions
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23:14:31 <Arc_Koen> also i'm assuming if you make an elevator get down through a ground, mario will not phase through
23:14:43 <Arc_Koen> though I wonder if mario dies if the elevator goes up through the ceiling
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23:17:34 <oerjan> i edited it, is this one better?
23:19:10 <oerjan> it assumes the elevator doesn't go faster than Mario is walking, otherwise it needs to be taller
23:27:46 * oerjan imagines Arc_Koen listening to MarioLANG code through a screen reader
23:37:00 <Arc_Koen> I was thinking about an object-oriented language based on mario kart
23:37:17 <Arc_Koen> with 8 participants in a 128 meters long race
23:37:28 <Arc_Koen> every kart has an acceleration, speed, and position
23:37:55 <Arc_Koen> and can do things at times specified by the program
23:38:04 <Arc_Koen> (like using objects against other participants)
23:38:56 <Arc_Koen> and of course everybody wants to win so karts cannot decelerate willingly (but can be slow down or stopped by objects used by other karts)
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23:44:03 <kmc> oh, my mistake, these are DVD-9's
23:44:07 <kmc> so that's like 180 GB
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00:02:58 <oerjan> there's a new irritating near-ultrasound in my room and it disappears when i turn off the laptop :(
00:03:54 <itidus20> so its not your laptop but your laptop makes it happen?
00:04:31 <oerjan> 's difficult to pinpoint the sound
00:06:45 <itidus20> hmm ok ok .. maybe what you need is a microphone which can detect this noise
00:07:06 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to imsaguy.
00:07:07 <Jafet> Fry some stereocilia
00:07:10 -!- imsaguy has changed nick to copumpkin.
00:07:33 <itidus20> and the microphone needs a way to be tracked within space
00:07:54 <itidus20> so that you can sweep the microphone around the room and create a map of the noise levels
00:09:50 <oerjan> perhaps the sound has always been there, and i just now noticed it...
00:09:56 <itidus20> files the issue as resolved on redmine
00:10:38 <oerjan> er perhaps it's resonating with something in the room of the new housemate
00:10:49 <itidus20> oerjan: hmmmmm i will say this much
00:11:12 <itidus20> my mum's radio... occasionally it has some specific interference
00:11:47 <itidus20> sounds almost like a decreasing frequency like pee-eooooOOOOOOOOOWWWW
00:12:08 <itidus20> my onomatopoeia probably doesn't help
00:13:17 <oerjan> this sound resembles slightly the sound of glasses vibrating while they touch, but much weaker (and i checked the kitchen)
00:14:01 <itidus20> anyway.. it seems that the revealed facts are 1) that it correlates with the on-ness of your laptop
00:14:16 <oerjan> and the strength changes greatly when i turn my head
00:14:45 <itidus20> but its not actually from your laptop right?
00:14:55 <itidus20> like if you took your laptop outside it would go away
00:14:55 <oerjan> i cannot tell for sure
00:15:32 <oerjan> it _does_ seem strongest next to the fan, although the usual fan sound overwhelms it
00:16:22 <itidus20> if you want to eavesdrop on walls, what i saw on tv is that the best solution is a thin paper cup
00:19:01 <itidus20> your theory about housemate's room sounds the best
00:20:05 <oerjan> except it doesn't actually get stronger toward that wall
00:21:48 <itidus20> i think you should try standing on different sides of doors, with the laptop in different locations
00:21:54 <oerjan> i lifted it and now it's started that clicking it sometimes does again
00:22:18 <itidus20> it's almost like a game of clue/cluedo
00:28:29 <Sgeo> What's the difference between Clue and Cluedo
00:28:37 <Sgeo> Also, people here know about Magic the Gathering being TC?
00:28:55 <Jafet> zzo does, but I don't.
00:29:08 <pikhq> Sgeo: I mentioned it earlier today.
00:29:26 <pikhq> Sgeo: Clue is the US name for Cluedo, IIRC.
00:33:54 <itidus20> i don't percieve cluedo as entertaining
00:37:24 <itidus20> basically any game which ends up being about finding the most efficient algorithm, i find that whole view of gameplay very lifeless
00:38:06 <pikhq> You must hate chess.
00:38:14 <Sgeo> I assume itidus20 wouldn't like BFJoust
00:38:24 <Sgeo> (Although I wouldn't call that "finding an efficient algorithm"
00:40:42 <itidus20> so when a baseball player hits a homerun, i do like the fact that they run around the bases even though the other team can't do anything to them
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00:46:19 <itidus20> i think growing up i always expected games to have more to them
00:46:41 <itidus20> considering how big a part they are of international culture and all
00:48:20 <itidus20> the universe itself dissapointed me in regards to games
00:48:41 <itidus20> i guess similarly to the way that in the end matter turned out to be just atoms
00:49:02 <itidus20> or maybe particles is the word
00:50:44 <itidus20> memories and emotions turned out to be neurons
00:51:15 <itidus20> everything in this way is dull and dissapointing
00:51:38 <pikhq> Whaddya mean, disappointing?
00:51:53 <pikhq> Would you prefer a universe run by Ancient Greek physics?
00:58:08 <tswett> Perhaps a universe that doesn't actually behave in any way.
01:04:46 <itidus20> the ramblings of a depressed anxiouser
01:05:03 <itidus20> i was getting off topic though
01:05:07 * oerjan wonders if itidus20 would like nomic
01:05:13 <itidus20> the point is games do behave in a specific way
01:05:57 <itidus20> oerjan: the secret is that nothing needs to change except my point of view
01:06:07 <oerjan> it's very much not about finding an efficient algorithm :)
01:06:31 <oerjan> unless you happen to find a scam that requires one, of course
01:07:28 <itidus20> i don't think i hate chess itself, but more struggle with multiplayer games
01:07:34 <oerjan> <itidus20> oerjan: the secret is that nothing needs to change except my point of view <-- ah i've tried that. and then my body starts protesting.
01:07:58 <Sgeo> itidus20, try Game of Life. It's a 0 player game!
01:08:00 <oerjan> or something unbelievably irritating happens that destroys my patience to keep the change
01:08:27 <oerjan> it's very nice the first minutes, however.
01:08:33 <itidus20> i am unable to detach from real life while playing multiplayer games
01:09:00 <oerjan> presumably i'm doing it wrong somehow.
01:09:51 <itidus20> however there is something written somewhere about some important person who would lose his temper if he lost at chess
01:09:57 <oerjan> itidus20: ah there's a paradox then - single-player games have even more fixed rules (unless you're just making things up)
01:10:25 <itidus20> so my issue isn't even with the games, but with the socializing
01:10:26 <oerjan> and so become even more about perfecting your algorithm
01:11:14 <itidus20> its kinda like... if i would step out of your way on a street.. then i don't want to defeat you in a game
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01:11:26 <oerjan> itidus20: i also have trouble with multiplayer games where i need to out-think other people to have any chance of winning
01:12:08 <itidus20> my brother has been trying to help me with this
01:12:30 <itidus20> when we played some game he was like "if you don't defeat me i will kick your ass"
01:12:31 <oerjan> i was going to respond something but got a pain in my heart, so i guess intuition doesn't want me to
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01:13:31 <itidus20> so he has matured a lot since we were kids
01:14:13 <itidus20> he used to use the "if i hit reset i didnt lose" approach :D
01:15:44 * oerjan learns about ]p in vim
01:15:49 <itidus20> oerjan: uh.. i think in general i need to learn to be competitive
01:16:19 <oerjan> something tells me i've made haskell editing more painful without it...
01:16:27 <itidus20> naturally one can't enjoy a game if one is not competitive...
01:16:38 <itidus20> maybe that is why i described them as dissapointing
01:16:55 <oerjan> oh. i have sort of a moral disgust against being competitive.
01:17:35 <oerjan> by playing reasonably well and having luck, i guess.
01:17:49 <oerjan> not that i play much these days.
01:18:21 <itidus20> yeah, i guess being competitive over a game of chance is silly
01:19:10 <oerjan> or by being so much smarter i don't _have_ to try that hard, occasionally.
01:19:20 <Sgeo> And itidus20 have you ever played Backgammon?
01:19:27 <Sgeo> It's a combination skill and luck game
01:19:32 <oerjan> Sgeo: ]p is like p, but adjusts indentation
01:19:34 <Sgeo> Not sure if that's the sort of game you'd like
01:19:37 <Sgeo> What does p do?
01:19:59 <itidus20> Sgeo: i have revised my views... it seems that i am not dissapointed with the universe...
01:21:05 * oerjan crawls back under rock
01:21:06 <itidus20> but i don't get the maximum enjoyment from games because of reasons like not wanting to anger my opponent or not playing with a sense of competitiveness
01:21:07 <Sgeo> o.O wait how did I just change itidus20's mind?
01:21:28 <Sgeo> I wasn't trying to, or anything
01:21:33 <Sgeo> Or disagreeing with anything
01:22:03 <itidus20> also.. i think i get impatient with losing
01:22:59 <itidus20> on a single player game that is
01:23:06 <itidus20> im not sure how i feel about losing in multiplayer
01:25:19 <itidus20> Sgeo: i love to consider things like games being constituted of a combinatin of skill and luck... but i get worn out before i can analyze such ideas in full
01:27:13 <Sgeo> Well, in Backgammon, each player rolls dice, which determines what moves they can make. Sometimes the dice might be unhelpful. However, there are usually choices.
01:27:51 <Sgeo> Thus, in an individual game, luck might play a large role, but in theory, it should even out, resulting in the more skilled player winning more often on average.
01:27:57 <itidus20> there is this document which was on a 486 machine i once spewed so much writing into... no idea what i wrote... and i lost it
01:28:04 <itidus20> i always wonder just what the hell i said
01:35:19 <shachaf> kmc: Turns out screen doesn't support non-BMP characters.
01:36:47 <itidus20> i tried watching a peta page showing workers kicking live chickens but it wasn't enough to stop me
01:37:03 <oerjan> they have kfc in australia?
01:37:26 <itidus20> yes.. we have pizza hut, kfc, subway, mcdonalds, burgerking (as hungry jacks)
01:38:05 <Phantom_Hoover> <itidus20> Sgeo: i love to consider things like games being constituted of a combinatin of skill and luck... but i get worn out before i can analyze such ideas in full
01:38:23 <Phantom_Hoover> how can someone be so self-aware of all their problems and yet be totally unable to act upon them
01:38:55 <Phantom_Hoover> "maybe i could stick at something and see if something interesting comes out of it"
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02:03:57 <kmc> shachaf: sucks :/
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02:35:34 <meredithMM> hey check out the newest mega uploaad style site at http://orfeas.civil.auth.gr/
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02:38:22 <Jafet> So it'll also be closed by a court?
02:40:24 <oerjan> nah it's in greece they cannot afford courts any more
02:41:51 <pikhq> It'll be closed by a tribunal of mules.
02:54:11 <kmc> wait i should not have clicked that link
02:54:14 <kmc> am i hacked now
02:55:43 <itidus20> it all happened so fast i didnt even stop to look at which chatter posted it
02:55:51 <itidus20> but i didnt click on it cos i was afk
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02:59:48 <kmc> hacked by greek
03:00:32 <kmc> it sounds like an official govt domain
03:00:40 <kmc> did they get hacked or did they just leave some internal app open due to stupid
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03:04:22 <itidus20> kmc: its possible that its legitimate right?
03:06:13 <kmc> oh yeah it might be govt run honeypot site
03:06:44 <kmc> MEGA WAREZ UPLOAD SITE @ https://copyright.cybercrime.fbi.gov
03:08:32 <itidus20> the ip of meredithMM is in greece at least
03:09:17 <oerjan> kmc: is it really an upload site?
03:09:47 <kmc> i didn't look very long
03:14:02 <itidus20> the fact that it was advertised by a bot doesn't necessarily mean it's bad
03:14:19 <itidus20> but it does kind of imply something or other
03:17:07 <itidus20> http://4chandata.org/g/Hey--g--just-wrote-this-file-sharing-app-lets-you-transfer-files-behind-firewallrouters-etc-and-trying-to-crash-test-it-http--orfe-a2063
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03:19:48 <itidus20> .... i mean.. i gotta stop posting
03:23:45 <Lumpio-> That site doesn't look like "mega uploaad" at all.
03:41:47 <Sgeo> Suddenly it occurs to me that our senior project idea may be bad
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03:51:20 <Sgeo> kmc did you get my msg?
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04:24:37 <Sgeo> Under what circumstances will email things such as gmail file away fake From headers as spam?
04:24:47 <Sgeo> Because I just sent a fake From, and it wasn't filed as spam
04:25:23 <shachaf> @ask Sgeo did you get my msg?
04:25:45 <Sgeo> shachaf, I can only assume that there was no such message
04:25:45 <lambdabot> Sgeo: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
04:27:06 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 1m 43s ago: did you get my msg?
04:27:30 <lambdabot> No quotes match. You speak an infinite deal of nothing
04:33:07 <Jafet> Automatic mailers use fake From headers
04:33:16 <Jafet> ...well, that happens to include automatic spam mailers
04:38:05 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Wrong! You cheating scum!
04:38:08 <lambdabot> No quotes match. It can only be attributed to human error.
04:38:13 <lambdabot> No quotes match. My mind is going. I can feel it.
04:38:58 <lambdabot> Jafet says: In soviet russia, State safely executes you
04:39:15 <lambdabot> oerjan says: i only do impractical things
04:39:29 <lambdabot> shachaf says: Haskell's type system is the perfect mix of useless and stupid.
04:40:03 <HackEgo> 9) <Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence
04:40:37 <HackEgo> 588) <ais523> if all my Facebook friends were to visit a page, it wouldn't make any difference at all
04:40:38 <lambdabot> dons says: that's 3 things i've never seen in the one sentence before: my assembler .. a bunch of type classes .. a natural syntax
04:40:42 <HackEgo> 693) <oerjan> well, i have to assume if i'm going to make any asses
04:40:44 <HackEgo> 516) <monqy> this reminds me of a time where this guy made up a pretend language that was in his fantasy world and then roleplayed as someone from his fantasy world who used the language and then tried to talk to me about the language
04:40:46 <HackEgo> 200) <elliott> oerjan: What, can girls aim their penises better?
04:40:48 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
04:41:30 <itidus20> the quotes must have been cleaned up
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04:46:17 <HackEgo> 435) <itidus20> to assume that someone can be described by a rule without exception... is to assume they are omnipotent <oklopol> for instance stones are omnipotent, as they don't do anything, without exception \ 457) <itidus20> monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly \ 458) <monqy> itidus20: i saw a dancing cgi skeleton named malaria. i danced and played with him.
04:47:02 <lambdabot> No quotes for this person. You speak an infinite deal of nothing
05:02:12 <kmc> No results found for "get high and watch bill nye".
05:02:14 <kmc> how can this be?!?
05:02:30 <shachaf> "I don't know anything about science!" Bill denied.
05:03:23 <itidus21> i probably used the wrong thing
05:03:28 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.22233
05:04:15 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18732
05:07:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: esolang: not found
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05:09:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: zalgo.hs: not found
05:11:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wiki: not found
05:12:20 <HackEgo> ? \ @ \ No \ WELCOME \ WeLcOmE \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ calc \ define \ delquote \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ google \ hatesgeo \ joustreport \ jousturl \ json \ k \ karma \ karma+ \ karma- \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ maketext \ marco \ paste \ pastefortunes \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ pastlog \ ping \ prefixes \ qc \ quachaf \ quoerjan
05:12:58 <HackEgo> 2012-09-12.txt:05:02:12: <kmc> No results found for "get high and watch bill nye".
05:13:01 <HackEgo> translatefromto \ translateto \ units \ url \ welcome \ wl \ word \ words \ wtf \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ
05:13:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29921
05:13:59 <HackEgo> ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ， ＣＨＥＣＫ ＯＵＴ ＯＵＲ ＷＩＫＩ： ＨＴＴＰ：／／ＥＳＯＬＡＮＧＳ．ＯＲＧ／ＷＩＫ
05:14:28 <HackEgo> 7) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 18) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 21) <oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird has taste \ 22) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <oerjan> In an alternate
05:14:34 <HackEgo> 575) <shachaf> elliott: GHC bug? Come on, it's the parentheses. <shachaf> The more parentheses you add, the closer it is to LISP, and therefore the more dynamically-typed. \ 618) <shachaf> Real Tar is GNU tar. <shachaf> You just ignore whichever features don't make you feel superior enough. \ 652) <shachaf> VMS Mosaic? <shachaf> I hope that's not Mosaic ported to VMS. <shachaf> Hmm. It's Mosaic ported to VMS.
05:17:03 <HackEgo> 842) < oerjan> Gregor: hey no fair doing ungoogleable citations
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05:26:47 <Sgeo> I officially fucking hate Pusher
05:28:10 <itidus21> Pusher is a hosted API for quickly, easily and securely adding scalable realtime functionality to web and mobile apps.
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05:28:29 <itidus21> Pusher is a hosted API for quickly, easily and securely adding scalable realtime functionality to web and mobile apps.
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05:28:56 <Sgeo_> Yes, and it doesn't work in the Android browser unless Flash is installed.
05:30:36 <itidus21> i am not sure that i want to know the answer to the question i just asked
05:31:01 <oerjan> it's a very hostile question
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05:34:19 <itidus21> " Note that the standard actually discourages developers from using Application Extension Blocks, and instead recommends that they embed the GIF format in their own file formats"
05:38:09 <itidus21> i am not sure that i want to know the answer to the question i just asked..
05:38:37 <Sgeo_> I think a hosted API is one where you send messages to a server somewhere and it responds
05:38:57 <itidus21> yeah.. sort of like an alternative name for web services eh
05:39:00 <Sgeo_> Rather than accessing it by using a library on the computer you're using the API on
05:39:12 <Sgeo_> But I'm not pissed at the hosted nature.
05:39:34 <Sgeo_> I'm pissed at the client-side Javascript library being poorly thought out.
05:39:48 <Sgeo_> In a way that actually has a real impact on users.
05:40:05 <Sgeo_> Pusher says they'll take care of all the compatibility stuff, but they lie
05:55:59 <itidus21> @sgeo http://geektyrant.com/storage/2011-post-images/pusher-remake-trailer.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1329273428443
05:58:09 <itidus21> http://ricecooker.kerbau.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/2010_03_pusher_cd-570x570-300x300.png
05:59:14 <itidus21> shachaf: i think its only a matter of time now for gif to become flash
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08:10:48 <ntshan> is Scala considered esoteric?
08:11:09 <shachaf> Do you consider it esoteric?
08:11:36 <shachaf> You, ntshan, have the power.
08:11:42 <shachaf> Let's keep lining things up.
08:12:07 <lambdabot> *** "esoteric" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
08:12:07 <lambdabot> adj 1: confined to and understandable by only an enlightened
08:12:07 <lambdabot> inner circle; "a compilation of esoteric philosophical
08:12:33 <Jafet> So brainfuck hackers are enlightened?
08:13:50 <ntshan> heh well...adoption is increasing (scala)
08:17:36 <Sgeo_> The biggest lie in computing is the idea that there exists any library anywhere that is not an utter piece of garbage.
08:20:52 <ntshan> disagree...a fair amount of my dev experience is not reinventing the wheel
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08:52:37 <Arc_Koen> Sgeo_: so following your last night discussion about backgammon, I think you might like Orwell Chess: http://www.chessvariants.org/large.dir/contest84/orwellchess.html
08:52:57 <Arc_Koen> it's a three-player variant on a cylindric board, using dice
08:55:15 <Arc_Koen> I came across it a couple years ago but never had an opportunity to play
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10:20:28 <Sgeo_> How is ais523's turing machine controversial?
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11:02:13 <Slereah> Because it needs another machine to prep it I think?
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11:42:48 <itidus21> i find the idea of finite things even more bizzare than infinite things
11:43:37 <Arc_Koen> I'm sitting on a finite chair and it serves its purpose just fine
11:45:01 <itidus21> but it is constituted of a potentially infinite number of parts
11:45:29 <itidus21> each seemingly either bigger or smaller
11:46:44 <Arc_Koen> I prefer to think of it as "just a chair"
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14:26:34 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `@'
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15:01:33 <Arc_Koen> I'm trying to make a truth-machine in Another Pi Language
15:02:10 <Arc_Koen> the program is 32-bit long and I found the first 17 bits in the decimals of pi
15:02:19 <Arc_Koen> I mean in the binary digits of pi
15:05:17 <Arc_Koen> ok I found the first 22 bits on a webpage that had more digits (though did not number them so I have no idea of the position)
15:05:40 <Arc_Koen> 10 more bits and that would be the first Another Pi Language program!!
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16:48:18 <FreeFull> Weird, properDivs x = nub $ init $ map (foldr (*) 1) $ subsequences $ primeFactors x doesn't work once you get rid of the x
16:51:42 <FreeFull> Arc_Koen: over 10**13 digits of pi have been calculated
16:51:48 <FreeFull> So you hvae plenty to look through
16:52:16 <Arc_Koen> well I need to find a web page with enough binary digits
16:53:24 <Arc_Koen> the first page I looked into had only 32000ish and I found a 17bit sequence in it; the second had way more digits and I found a 22bits sequence in it, but I don't know how many digits there were exactly
16:54:19 <Arc_Koen> assuming the binary digits really are random, I should probably calculate an how many digits I need to find my 32bit sequence with reasonable probabilities.
16:55:33 <FreeFull> "The search string "0123456789" was not found in the first 2,000,000,000 decimal digits of Pi."
16:58:02 <Arc_Koen> yeah and 10^10 and 2^32 are about the same
16:58:13 <fizzie> Just ask Google. "0123456789 occurs at 6214876462", from MathWorld.
16:59:11 <fizzie> Oh, that's not the number you care about.
17:00:59 <fizzie> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_are_the_digits_0123456789_in_pi "Best answer" "There are no 0s in pi" riiight.
17:01:15 <Arc_Koen> so I guess I need the first 40 000 000 000 binary digits
17:02:33 <Arc_Koen> the sequence I'm searching for is 0110 0001 1100 1110 1111 1101 1100 1110
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17:04:54 <Arc_Koen> http://pi.nersc.gov/cgi-bin/pi.cgi?word=61CEFDCE&format=hex *waiting*
17:05:07 <Arc_Koen> string does not occur in first 4 billion binary digits of pi
17:05:23 <Arc_Koen> yeah well I said I needed the first 40 billions!
17:06:21 <Arc_Koen> ohhhh great it found the first 28 bits
17:06:28 <Arc_Koen> http://pi.nersc.gov/cgi-bin/pi.cgi?word=61CEFDC&format=hex
17:06:29 <olsner> the first (decimal) zero is surprisingly far into pi, position 32 or whatever it is
17:06:54 <Arc_Koen> well 32 when you have 1/10 doesn't see so far does it?
17:07:18 <Arc_Koen> hmm unfortunately my program doesn't work without the last 4 bits
17:07:32 <jiella> so I've been wondering... what's with the limes on the wiki?
17:10:11 <oklopol> olsner: it's not at all surprising, 0's occur in pi at rate 1/32. the proof doesn't fit in this irc message but i'm sure you can work it out.
17:10:11 <Arc_Koen> search string (61CEFDC) found at binary index = 2869529096
17:10:48 <Arc_Koen> I wanted to use that argument to "prove" a joke language Turing-complete
17:11:23 <oklopol> the problem is anything fits on a wiki page :(
17:11:59 <Arc_Koen> yup that's why it's still not proven TC :(
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17:39:19 <oerjan> ...at the precise moment i was planning to go early to bed in order to aim for a normal sleeping cycle next week, a housemate enters the house with a half dozen friends.
17:39:52 <oerjan> for the _first_ time since he moved in.
17:40:16 <oerjan> i think the universe wants me to miss next week's appointment.
17:40:52 <oklopol> are you participating in the beer drinking and friending it up
17:41:25 <oklopol> and why do you have a housemate and how many housemates do you have and what's their name and what are all these questions
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17:43:13 <oerjan> there are two housemates, i think their names are jürgen (he's german) and sondre.
17:43:28 <oerjan> i have them because my landlady wants money.
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17:44:26 <oklopol> i would just stop paying out of spite. you should pay how much you *want* to pay, not how much *the man* tells you to pay.
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17:49:41 <oerjan> that should go down well.
17:56:32 <oerjan> <FreeFull> Weird, properDivs x = nub $ init $ map (foldr (*) 1) $ subsequences $ primeFactors x doesn't work once you get rid of the x
17:56:55 <oerjan> you need to replace the $'s by .'s as well, if that's your problem
18:02:09 <oerjan> > map product . mapM (scanl (*) 1) . group . sort $ [2,2,3,5,5]
18:02:11 <lambdabot> [1,5,25,3,15,75,2,10,50,6,30,150,4,20,100,12,60,300]
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18:10:16 <oerjan> <jiella> so I've been wondering... what's with the limes on the wiki? <-- the former wiki admin wanted a pretty picture, and found one on the internet (formerly on wikimedia iirc). nothing more to it. (i tried to make a pun out of it and it went horribly wrong.)
18:11:32 <olsner> it's to prevent the wiki from getting scurvy
18:11:45 <olsner> since it doesn't eat any cabbage
18:12:23 <oerjan> you seem to be right, absolutely no cabbage on the wiki
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18:21:36 <oerjan> shachaf: how did you do that.
18:22:31 <shachaf> oerjan: Would you believe it's luck?
18:22:55 <shachaf> I once convinced someone in #haskell that lambdabot's @slap had a special-case that would always refuse to @slap me.
18:23:51 <olsner> I think @yarr doesn't have a lot of possibilities, so it's not *that* unlikely that pure luck gives something relevant
18:24:01 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at chara...
18:24:07 <lambdabot> May the clap make ye incapable of Cracking Jenny's Tea Cup.
18:24:07 <lambdabot> Well me 'earties, let's see what crawled out of the bung hole...
18:24:15 <lambdabot> What be a priate's favourite cheese?
18:24:31 <oerjan> shachaf: ok the only way i could think of that you might have cheated wasn't right :P
18:25:50 <oerjan> well i cannot prove you didn't use that method.
18:26:43 <lambdabot> I think so, Brain, but pants with horizontal stripes make me look chubby.
18:27:05 <olsner> why did PEZ become ESME?
18:46:17 <Sgeo__> I think Pusher was written in ESME
18:46:24 <Sgeo__> </insulting-pusher-excessively>
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18:46:40 <olsner> oh, ESME is a language?
18:48:18 <Sgeo__> No. It's a "language".
18:48:25 <jiella> oerjan: a pun fail there too, hmm? I've already made some embarrisingly bad puns out of the lime thingy
18:48:47 <Sgeo__> Don't dignify it by putting it in the same category as PHP and COBOL.
18:49:06 <olsner> I can't think of any puns related to limes, how do you do it?
18:49:06 <Sgeo__> It's not the PHP of Esolangs, that's an insult to PHP.
18:49:28 <Sgeo__> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esme
18:49:32 <olsner> insults to PHP are generally considered a good thing though
18:49:44 <jiella> oerjan: the thing is though that every time I read something on the wiki, I get the stupid lime & coconut song stuck in my head
18:50:46 <oerjan> olsner: you just need to do some sublime thinking
18:50:57 <oerjan> (that was the pun that went horribly wrong btw)
18:51:09 <olsner> jiella: if you ask nicely, can probably get elliott to make the wiki play lime in the coconut in the background
18:51:44 <Sgeo__> If an esolang is like the speech of a vapid person, Esme makes Snooki's talking sound like a PhD thesis.
18:52:07 <Sgeo__> Ok, so maybe I shouldn't insult people in my attempt to make fun of Esme.
18:52:36 <oerjan> that's just what esme does to you.
18:53:13 <jiella> oerjan: aww, yours was about sublime too :(
18:53:20 <jiella> I feel so unoriginal now
18:53:39 <Sgeo__> olsner, read of Esme and weep
18:54:06 <jiella> olsner: noooo, I think I'll manage
18:54:19 <olsner> I like the perl example though, it has an inkling of something very horrible
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18:57:44 <Phantom_Hoover> she would... probably be happy that she's still relevant to some people
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19:08:28 <oklopol> was the pun that if all the content in the wiki is under a lime then it's a sublime wiki
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19:14:24 <olsner> oh, that was indeed a bad pun
19:17:02 <jiella> bad puns are the best though
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19:39:13 <ais523> from the department of suspiciously specific spam: a spambot was advertising a way to smoke that !doesn't contain 4000 chemicals"
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19:52:27 <Sgeo__> ais523, hi. What's the controversy surrounding your UTM>
19:56:50 <lambdabot> hagb4rd said 12s ago: not to be sad
19:56:57 <FreeFull> oerjan: primeFactors is part of Data.Numbers.Primes
20:01:11 <hagb4rd> hey oerjan. have you done some more mario programming at last?
20:01:34 <hagb4rd> any results you can share?
20:01:59 <oerjan> not since this morning no. it doesn't interest me _that_ much. i'm currently looking at jolverine.
20:07:05 <oerjan> no i "fixed" the truth machine for MarioLANG
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20:26:38 <atriq> Yeah, a lot of my truth-machines should be taken with a grain of salt
20:32:57 <atriq> I wrote them while over-excited and probably bored and tired
20:33:06 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, oerjan, any idea what the game referenced in Darths & Droids 775 is?
20:33:46 <atriq> The forum doesn't have a clue either
20:34:10 <atriq> Possibly Star Trek?
20:35:56 <kmc> pilots are usually named "Pilot"
20:36:00 * kmc deliberately misinterprets
20:36:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Also 'shellshocked pilot' makes it sound more like a fighter pilot.
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20:38:30 <olsner> oh, and I this shuttle set is built out of a repurposed ferengi shuttle set
20:38:44 <kmc> _Lost_ is the only show I know of where the pilot is titled "Pilot" but this also works as a normal episode title
20:38:49 <olsner> or repainted more than repurposed, perhaps
20:39:06 <kmc> _Seinfeld_ had an episode called "The Pilot" in season 4
20:39:09 <kmc> it's, like, meta, man
20:39:29 <olsner> oh, it refers to that pilot?
20:39:55 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, (the named pilot I was talking about was the guy who Ezri investigates the death of in a DS9 episode.)
20:40:09 <atriq> I'm not a huge star trek fan, I'm afraid
20:40:19 <atriq> As in, I've watched the newest movie and maybe two episodes?
20:40:29 <olsner> don't be afraid, star trek is nice
20:40:46 <kmc> star trek, isn't that for nerds or something
20:42:04 <atriq> Reluctant doctor = Simon Tam, pilot = Wash, shellshocked pilot = River Tam, nurse = oh dear I don't know
20:42:45 <atriq> But not many miracles
20:43:01 <olsner> but the comic was about a game? not a sci fi series?
20:43:10 <Phantom_Hoover> but i was under the impression that river tam mostly just kicked people and ticked boxes on whedon's list of fetishes
20:43:32 <atriq> She became the pilot at the end of the movie after spoilers happened
20:43:32 <kmc> i wonder how many seasons firefly could have run before becoming shitty
20:44:03 <kmc> i think the film basically demonstrates the hypothetical viability of a second season
20:44:09 <kmc> beyond that, idk
20:45:12 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, D&D has this running joke where the characters reference other roleplaying games they've played.
20:45:34 <Phantom_Hoover> And they're all real-world films or TV shows or whatever.
20:45:47 <Phantom_Hoover> The first one was Princess Bride and I think they just rolled with it.
20:46:05 <atriq> Then it was a mash of Twilight and Van Helsing
20:46:43 <hagb4rd> twilight? wasn't that ages after your last d&d game?
20:47:03 * hagb4rd only knows that twilight movies
20:47:12 <atriq> We're talking about the webcomic Darths and Droids
20:58:38 <atriq> You know what would be cool?
20:58:52 <atriq> A program that translated Turing machines into turing-complete languages
20:58:57 <atriq> And possibly vice versa
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21:12:18 <Sgeo__> Is there any way a scammer could get a .gov address?
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21:12:53 <atriq> I'd guess probably
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21:13:22 <kmc> the US government is the largest employer in the USA
21:13:53 <Sgeo__> We got mail claiming to be a survey from the Dept. of Education
21:13:58 <Sgeo__> My dad says it sounds fishy
21:14:12 <Sgeo__> It mentions a .gov address, and said address does in fact mention a survey
21:14:47 <olsner> judging by what we've heard about your school, there is obviously no dept. of education where you are
21:14:52 <kmc> do they want any confidential info
21:16:26 <Sgeo__> First name, age, gender, schooling of 5 youngest children under 20
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21:20:30 <Sgeo__> There was also a $5 bill enclosed
21:20:48 <kmc> that sounds fishy
21:20:55 <kmc> was it a crisp $5 bill or like
21:20:59 <kmc> a ratty one with drugs stains
21:21:30 <kmc> i wonder if gravatar has code to avoid generating swastikas
21:21:34 <kmc> they sometimes get pretty close anyway
21:23:53 <Sgeo__> A counterfeit-detection pen costs ~ $4.29
21:24:04 <Sgeo__> But my dad wants one now that he know it exists
21:24:17 <kmc> nobody is going to counterfit fives anyway
21:24:19 <kmc> but that's funny
21:24:52 <kmc> i liked the thing i saw on CSI (which probably happens irl) where you bleach a real $5 and then print a counterfeit $20 on it
21:25:02 <kmc> so it has the real paper
21:25:10 <kmc> you can't do this with Euro notes because the more valuable ones are bigger
21:31:52 <kmc> that's less than €2 though
21:32:10 <olsner> but it'll buy you about 5 beers
21:33:24 <Sgeo__> I'm looking at the rules for use of US currency imagery
21:33:34 <Sgeo__> Close programs to prevent information loss
21:33:35 <Sgeo__> Your computer is low on memory. Save your files and close these programs:
21:33:38 <Sgeo__> [Close program] [Cancel]
21:33:52 <Sgeo__> "all negatives, plates, positives, digitized storage medium, graphic files, magnetic medium, optical storage devices and any other thing used in the making of the illustration that contain an image of the illustration or any part thereof are destroyed and/or deleted or erased after their final use."
21:34:32 <Sgeo__> Weird that I was literally able to copy/paste a dialog box
21:34:56 <olsner> that's always been supported, it's a neat feature
21:37:44 <Sgeo__> Anyways... the destruction of magnetic media
21:38:18 <kmc> makes sense
21:38:22 <Sgeo__> Hmm, just the files, or the entire drive?
21:38:24 <kmc> hard drives are cheap compared to the risk
21:38:28 <kmc> probably the whole drive
21:38:59 <kmc> hard to physically destroy files with confidence otherwise
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21:39:41 <Sgeo__> So physical destruction isn't required, apparently
21:39:59 <olsner> "any other thing" ... sounds like you have to destroy/delete/erase the internet if you download the imagery
21:42:03 <olsner> or at least the parts of the internet that came in contact with some part of the illustration
21:49:19 <olsner> bad things happen if you take things too literally
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23:05:06 <fizzie> olsner: If gravity was "used" in the making (for example, to keep people on the floor), you have to destroy it.
23:05:47 <fizzie> Oh, "that contain an image or any part". Aw.
23:06:17 <fizzie> Well, presumably they destroyed all computers and such that had the image in RAM.
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01:01:21 <Sgeo__> Should I be mad at Pusher for not supporting the Android browser, or Google for making the Android browser not support websockets
01:02:48 <itidus21> you should do a careful reconsideration of whether pusher is right for you
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01:42:21 <kmc> ask your doctor if pusher is right for you
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01:46:55 <Sgeo__> Because it's websocket based, and the only fallback is Flash-based.
01:47:12 <Sgeo__> So, a site built using Pusher won't be accessible on Android
01:47:21 <Sgeo__> I just want to know who deserves more of the blame.
01:48:20 <Sgeo__> I wrote a little long-polling thing in PHP
01:48:41 <kmc> that sucks
01:48:45 <kmc> why don't they fall back to longpolling
01:48:52 <Sgeo__> Not sure if it will meet my needs, especially since the only way I can think of to make it work is to hit the hard drive a lot, and we're sort of wanting to do a real-time thing
01:50:06 <Sgeo__> Oh hey I found an alternative to pusher
01:50:26 <kmc> is it called shover?
01:55:16 <Sgeo__> Might be more expensive though :(
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05:09:25 <zzo38> I wonder if the 2A03 audio output can be used for something in the Famicom cartridge other than mixing the audio?
05:10:38 <itidus21> zzo38: out of all possible replys, i chose the meta-reply
05:21:27 <itidus21> i considered saying i had let my blood sugar slip low and what i ate to recover it
05:22:06 <itidus21> but it didnt seem to be very contributative to the 2a03 topic
05:30:03 <zzo38> What would happen if trying to use the analog signal as a digital signal?
05:41:21 <zzo38> It does generate square waves at specified periods and duty.
05:41:37 <zzo38> And possibly in combination with CPU clock to do something?
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08:46:48 <itidus21> <!-- mr. speaker, what i have to say in reply to the leader of the opposition mr. speaker is that the current crisis was the result of the policies of the opposition party, mr. speaker and we have a mandate from the elbonian people to correct the mistakes of the opposition mr. speaker-->
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08:47:59 <Lumpio-> Are you sure you said mr. speaker enough
08:58:31 <itidus21> heres a random sample http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3QiwaU3CMM
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15:27:53 <Taneb> Now I will never be atriq again!
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15:29:59 <quintopia> @tell Taneb|Away come back friend!
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15:30:11 <ettioll> I'm not sure why I still have this one
15:30:21 <quintopia> @tell ettioll thats not how you spell elliott
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15:31:04 <quintopia> @tell RocketKSquirrel his middle name is J
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15:32:57 <atriq> I'll leave all the others
15:33:09 <atriq> It'll be fun if I ever use most of those nicks again
15:34:43 <quintopia> @ask atriq why not have fun in the PRESENT MOMENT?
15:35:00 <atriq> @tell quintopia Because that would be silly.
15:35:13 <lambdabot> quintopia: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:35:19 <lambdabot> atriq: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:35:31 <lambdabot> atriq said 30s ago: Because that would be silly.
15:35:35 <lambdabot> quintopia asked 51s ago: why not have fun in the PRESENT MOMENT?
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16:37:03 <atriq> Go for the rot13 of your initials, plus an e randomly in the middle
16:37:18 <atriq> Like, my initials are N. G. v D., with an e, that's ngevd.
16:37:34 <atriq> See? A really good nick!
16:38:10 <atriq> Phantom__Hoover, I'm just N. G. E. v D., but the G comes from someone who was G. E. M.
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16:51:22 <AnotherTest> I was going to take the first 3 characters
16:53:30 <kmc> don't use md5
16:54:19 <kmc> no, there is a difference
16:54:26 <kmc> rot13 has some advantages for (non-security) applications
16:55:13 <kmc> md5 has no advantages over other hash functions, afaik
16:56:22 <kmc> even when security does not matter at all, you should avoid the thing associated with bad security if it has no advantages
16:58:08 <kmc> oh, md5 is faster than sha1, i thought it was the other way
16:58:18 <kmc> still, if you want a non-cryptographic fast hash function, there are much faster choices
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17:53:35 <zzo38> Whose name cannot be expressed in the Basic Multilingual Plane? (Does that include the private use area?)
17:56:16 <fizzie`> Non-BMP names are the new non-ASCII names.
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18:07:33 <oklopol> rot13 is great for hints that you can write down and read later, because it's just hard enough that you don't read it by accident, but you can still decode it mentally.
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18:08:43 <olsner> are there any ASCII characters outside the BMP?
18:09:06 <zzo38> I don't think so; ASCII are all 0 to 127
18:14:56 <zzo38> Is there a way to tell MediaWiki to search user contribution only which are creating new pages?
18:18:30 <oerjan> hm Special:NewPages has a username field but it doesn't seem to work...
18:19:32 <oerjan> it's just none of the people i checked first had made any new pages recently :P
18:19:57 <zzo38> Except I want to omit any edits which are not new pages
18:20:17 <zzo38> (But including even old ones; as long as the edit created a page)
18:20:53 <oerjan> zzo38: it _does_ show only new pages, but unfortunately not old new pages :/
18:21:31 <oerjan> maybe there's a timeout, or maybe it only started getting updated after a mediawiki upgrade...
18:24:31 <oerjan> hm the whole NewPages only goes back to 9 June
18:31:05 <kmc> yeah, US-ASCII is mapped to the first 128 Unicode codepoints
18:31:39 <kmc> which is convenient because the ASCII character encoding coincides with UTF-8
18:31:57 <kmc> i strongly suspect (but have not verified) that all characters in all national variants of ISO 646 are in the BMP
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18:32:42 <kmc> and probably all of ISO 8859 as well
18:33:34 <oerjan> hm what about the euro character?
18:33:54 <zzo38> Looking at ROT13 I found this http://www.miranda.org/~jkominek/rot13/inform/rot13.inf which does ROT13 as you type. On Famicom, something similar could be done just by arranging the CHR ROM in the right way! For example, the "A" key is row 6, column 0, bit 4, so put "M" glyph in the corresponding CHR ROM area.
18:34:06 <kmc> the euro character is in the BMP at U+20AC
18:34:24 <kmc> BMP ends at U+FFFF
18:34:36 <kmc> a "plane" is 2^16 codepoints
18:35:18 <kmc> zzo38: I suspect there are people with Chinese names using obscure characters
18:35:46 <kmc> I remember reading an article about how the Chinese government was trying to stop the practice of inventing a new character for your child's name
18:37:05 <oerjan> hm i know this korean lady whose name is supposedly written with an unusual character...
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18:38:37 <kmc> also when the artist formerly known as "the artist formerly known as Prince" was known thus, his name was an invented symbol which was, to my knowledge, never incorporated into the Universal Character Set
18:39:10 <oerjan> 全 looks like she described it
18:39:23 <olsner> I wonder if there are unicode codepoints that no-one has ever used, except in stuff like listings of unicode characters
18:41:21 <kmc> multiocular O!
18:41:42 <olsner> kmc: I've seen that one used lots of times
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18:42:19 <oerjan> i guess that's still BMP...
18:42:53 <olsner> speaking of BMP, a character set could allow for custom characters encoded as bitmaps
18:47:30 <kmc> olsner: only because it's my favorite
18:48:51 <itidus21> i once tried to make a text editor which used literal bitmaps http://oi48.tinypic.com/29c5ag5.jpg
18:49:15 <itidus21> but it never got to dealing with things like scrolling.. it was very very primitive
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19:15:57 <FireFly> You should've made it self-hosting and then continued the development from the editor itself
19:17:31 <itidus21> the basis of it was this half baked game engine i was doing with GDI in windows
19:18:04 <itidus21> naturally one of the most obvious applications of a game engine is a text editor
19:23:29 <itidus21> i didnt really have a clue what i was doing when i made it.. if i do have the source code somewhere it is more like a rotting ship of theseus which would inevitably be completely rewritten
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19:49:15 -!- tswett has set topic: I HAVE NOW | Official channel of ESME | ESME is the best programming language. Why have you abandoned ESME? | Do not fret, ESME can forgive you. Give yourself freely to ESME. | PT6TRPA6PM6K | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
19:49:56 <tswett> Download code for Scribblenauts Remix for iOS.
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21:12:43 <zzo38> Some of the Famicom Keyboard keys will not work with VirtuaNES because it expect a Japanese keyboard layout, so the @ and : keys won't work. Do you know how to remap them?
21:16:43 <FreeFull> Particularly http://www.autohotkey.com/docs/misc/Remap.htm
21:18:18 <zzo38> Is it possible to do by patching the EXE file?
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21:23:24 <zzo38> I looked at the source-codes and it is not stored in some table; it uses DirectInput.m_Sw[DIK_......]
21:24:17 <zzo38> It allows the backslash key to be used in place of the yen key but that is the only thing.
21:24:39 <Lumpio-> ...in old Japanese charsets there was no backslash, just the yen symbol
21:24:48 <Lumpio-> Infact Japanese fonts still have the yen symbol at the \ codepoint
21:24:59 <Lumpio-> So for them escape codes and Windows file paths are full of yen symbols.
21:26:18 <zzo38> It seems to require DIK_COLON, DIK_UNDERLINE, DIK_CIRCUMFLEX, and DIK_AT.
21:29:01 <zzo38> I don't have those keys but it seems some keys are unused such as ` = ' F9 F11 so it should be remapped to those ones? The context menu key is not used either, nor is backspace. It should map = to the Famicom's ^ key, ' to the Famicom's : key, perhaps backspace to Famicom's @
21:29:22 <zzo38> (The Famicom has the STOP key where the backspace is on a PC keyboard; but the PC's END key is mapped to the Famicom's STOP key.)
21:30:34 <zzo38> In order to patch the .EXE file, it might help to knkow what the DirectInput DIK_*** constants are.
21:32:34 <FreeFull> Can't use a different emulator?
21:34:23 <zzo38> I can use FCEU but it does not have a memory view command.
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21:35:58 <FreeFull> You could also try switching to the japanese layout and using the on-screen keyboard to find out which key is which
21:36:36 <zzo38> I know which key is which.
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23:16:44 <olsner> hmm, so a couple of seconds after stopping the xindi death ray weapon at the end of a 24 episode arc, this series is now about something completely different
23:16:57 <olsner> time traveling nazis, it seems
23:29:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Except that one episode I watched because I heard it was good.
23:29:40 <olsner> oh, turns out it was just a short two-episode detour in nazi timeline before actually finishing the season finale
23:30:36 <olsner> most of it is bad, some of it is ok ... it might be incredibly writer-dependent or something
23:30:46 <olsner> their captain is all bad though
23:32:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I also hear Brunt and Weyounds and that racist policeman are all in it again.
23:32:29 <olsner> yes, jeffrey combs is in like all the series
23:33:49 <Phantom_Hoover> did you know there was a guy in tos who was born in the 1880s or something
23:34:22 <olsner> yes, I think that was mentioned in here
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00:24:10 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/fluids.jpg
00:26:11 <kmc> water: used by nazis
00:26:21 <kmc> also good filename
00:28:24 * shachaf watched Dr. Strangelove the other day.
00:31:09 <zzo38> I think you can use intonation with Famicom audio? Make the highest note have period 90.
00:32:27 <zzo38> (Actually 180, because of a left shift; and because it adds two, the number you need to put into the register is actually 89.)
00:34:31 <zzo38> And even that is not quite right; the actual period is 1440.
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00:42:23 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, see I was about to say something about almonds containing cyanide which was used in the gas chambers
00:42:59 <Phantom_Hoover> But then I realised that I don't actually know if they used cyanide, and I'm not googling "nazi death chamber gas" from this IP.
00:43:43 <kmc> yeah, zyklon b is a preparation of hydrogen cyanide
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01:40:30 <zzo38> I am making "Elemental Solitaire" game on Famicom.
01:41:32 <zzo38> I already got some of it working, including CHR ROM, PRG ROM, music, deck shuffling, title screen, sprites flashing. Now I will add some more, until it is completed.
01:53:11 <Sgeo_> I have repeatedly called PubNub "PubSub"
01:53:25 <Sgeo_> Oh, apparently not in here
01:53:31 <shachaf> zzo38: Why stop when it is completed?
01:54:34 <zzo38> To make the program not too large to fit on NROM.
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02:14:08 <zzo38> So far it uses less than 2K for PRG ROM and CHR ROM together. When it is finished, it might be less than 4K.
02:46:53 <oerjan> LAMBDA LAMBDA LAMBDA LAMBDA APPLY APPLY ONE MORE THAN ONE MORE THAN ONE MORE THAN ZERO
02:46:56 <oerjan> ONE MORE THAN ZERO APPLY APPLY ONE MORE THAN ONE MORE THAN ZERO ONE MORE THAN ZERO ZERO
02:47:26 <ion> BADGER BADGER BADGER BADGER BADGER BADGER BADGER BADGER BADGER BADGER BADGER BADGER MUSHROOM MUSHROOM
02:47:59 <oerjan> \ \ \ \ ((3 1)((2 1) 0))
02:48:56 <oerjan> i'm trying to decode Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download because Koen and I are confused about the intended application order
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03:29:36 <zzo38> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnwinnableByDesign The situation described under "Why Would You Even Do That?" is not good enough. There should be some objects which you need to vaporize with this button, as well as those which you need to keep.
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03:59:55 <Sgeo_> NetHack's not on that page :(
04:07:50 <zzo38> If you have an account, add it, if you think it belong, isn't it?
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05:05:34 <kmc> glad that's settled
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05:14:05 <oerjan> > chr <$> [72, 101, 108, 108, 115, 44, 32, 119, 111, 114, 108, 100, 33, 10]
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05:14:34 <oerjan> i assume i made a mistake
05:18:22 <itidus21> > chr <$> [72, 101, 108, 108, 32, 109, 111, 44, 32, 119, 111, 114, 108, 100, 33, 10]
05:22:17 <Sgeo_> > chr <$> $ ord <$> "Hello, world!\n"
05:22:17 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `$'
05:22:35 <Sgeo_> > (chr <$>) $ ord <$> "Hello, world!\n"
05:27:59 <pikhq> > chr <$> ['\0'..]
05:28:00 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Int'
05:28:17 <lambdabot> "\NUL\SOH\STX\ETX\EOT\ENQ\ACK\a\b\t\n\v\f\r\SO\SI\DLE\DC1\DC2\DC3\DC4\NAK\S...
05:30:39 <shachaf> > take(length['\0'..]).chr.[0..]==['\0'..]
05:30:40 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a]'
05:30:40 <lambdabot> against inferred type `GHC.Types...
05:30:59 <shachaf> > take(length['\0'..])(chr.[0..])==['\0'..]
05:34:41 <lambdabot> "\NUL\SOH\STX\ETX\EOT\ENQ\ACK\a\b\t\n\v\f\r\SO\SI\DLE\DC1\DC2\DC3\DC4\NAK\S...
05:35:07 <Sgeo_> > chr [0..] == ['\0'..]
05:35:08 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Int'
05:35:32 <Sgeo_> > map chr [0..] == ['\0'..]
05:35:56 <shachaf> > uncurry(==).zip(chr.[0..])['\0'..]
05:35:58 <lambdabot> [True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True...
05:35:58 <pikhq> Sgeo_: [0..] is unbound, ['\0'..] is bound. :)
05:36:03 <shachaf> > and.uncurry(==).zip(chr.[0..])['\0'..]
05:36:04 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Bool.Bool]'
05:36:08 <shachaf> > and$uncurry(==).zip(chr.[0..])['\0'..]
05:39:28 <Sgeo_> What's with the . in place of <$>?
05:40:09 <pikhq> Caleskell has (.) = (<$>)
05:44:37 <Sgeo_> Aren't there a bunch of code points that are invalid?
05:44:44 <Sgeo_> Don't tell me that Char includes those
05:44:50 <pikhq> Oh, duh, it's not 2^21-1 characters in Unicode, it's 17 16-bit planes.
05:45:00 <pikhq> Sgeo_: They are *unassigned* code points.
05:45:05 <pikhq> Unassigned != invalid.
05:45:20 <shachaf> pikhq: No, some are invalid.
05:45:50 <pikhq> Oh, duh, there's stuff like the surrogate pairs.
05:45:59 <pikhq> Surrogate pairs are explicitly invalid.
05:48:11 <pikhq> ... Huh. In principle you could do *slightly better* than UTF-63 then.
05:48:33 <pikhq> With really stupidly complicated coding schemes.
05:49:05 <pikhq> > logBase 2 (3*17*2^16)
05:49:17 <pikhq> ... I'm not sure what I was thinking there.
05:49:29 <pikhq> Definitely not anything sane.
05:49:43 <shachaf> pikhq: You can also do better because you can (a) use that extra bit, so exactly 21 bits per codepoint instead of 21+1/3, and (b) only to represent need slightly over 2^20 codepoints.
05:50:38 <pikhq> What's the multiple of lb(17*2^16) nearest a round number, I wonder...
05:51:00 <shachaf> Are surrogate codepoints disallowed in all the planes or just the BMP?
05:51:07 <pikhq> > map (* (logBase 2 (3*17*2^16))) [2..]
05:51:08 <lambdabot> [43.344850683942994,65.0172760259145,86.68970136788599,108.36212670985748,1...
05:53:15 <pikhq> Dammit, a little *over* 4096.
05:54:38 <shachaf> Is 0x1D800 a valid codepoint?
05:54:52 <pikhq> UTF-1024 is the best encoding.
05:55:15 <pikhq> shachaf: I think it's valid but unassigned?
05:55:35 * shachaf was hoping to avoid thinking about how UTF-16 works. :-(
05:56:37 <shachaf> OK, so you get 10 bits per UTF-16 code unit.
05:58:02 <shachaf> Bah, it comes out bigger than 20 bits either way.
05:58:56 <kmc> i don't remember if the Haskell spec says anything about Chars corresponding to invalid characters
05:59:01 <kmc> but GHC does allow them, as demonstrated above
05:59:15 <shachaf> Data.Text doesn't, though.
05:59:25 <kmc> yeah, because it uses UTF-16 efb
05:59:27 <pikhq> UTF-1024 gives you 47 codepoints in a mere 128 bytes.
05:59:44 <kmc> you shuold all use UTF-EBCDIC
05:59:45 <shachaf> So it does an extra pass when you encodeUTF8.
06:00:21 <kmc> aww, my iconv doesn't know about utf-ebcdic
06:01:11 <pikhq> UTF-64 gives you 47 codepoints in... 126 bytes? Dammit!
06:01:14 <pikhq> I'm wasting more bits!
06:02:33 <zzo38> I made up a kind of UTF-INTERCAL a while ago, which is based on EBCDIC but is not the same as UTF-EBCDIC.
06:02:47 <pikhq> UTF-90008 works, though.
06:07:46 <Sgeo_> UTF-63? UTF-32 isn't sufficient?
06:08:01 <shachaf> UTF-63 is really UTF-21.333...
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06:08:32 * Sgeo_ doesn't entirely understand
06:08:37 <Sgeo_> I plan on sleeping soon though
06:09:38 <pikhq> Sgeo_: UTF-64 packs 3 Unicode codepoints as 21 bits each, and wastes a bit.
06:11:31 <shachaf> It doesn't waste much, fortunately!
06:12:23 <pikhq> It wastes a bit more than a bit, apparently, because a Unicode codepoint is *slightly more* than 20 bits, rather than 21 bits.
06:12:43 <shachaf> Why couldn't they arrange it to be exactly 20 bits?
06:12:49 <pikhq> But packing more efficiently is really nontrivial.
06:13:54 <Sgeo_> 0x10FFFF looks familiar
06:14:00 <pikhq> Largest codepoint.
06:14:08 <pikhq> Unicode is in 17 planes of 16 bits each.
06:14:34 <pikhq> Which has some of its values scavenged for UTF-16 to work.
06:15:21 <pikhq> UTF-16 is such a terrible encoding.
06:15:44 <pikhq> And honestly has little excuse for existing.
06:16:09 <pikhq> Most things that adopted UCS-2 and later migrated to UTF-16 for legacy reasons came *after* UTF-8.
06:16:54 <pikhq> And even those things that did UTF-16 before 1993 could've migrated to UTF-8 readily.
06:17:01 <pikhq> With less pain, in fact.
06:17:35 <pikhq> Java's really offensive. It was released in '95.
06:18:10 <zzo38> How many files are there for chess games with TeX? Do any of them include AI?
06:19:37 <pikhq> And Windows could've switched easily...
06:19:58 <pikhq> UCS-2 as some stupid cruft for compatibility with NT 3.1?
06:22:21 <zzo38> Some games involve chance, some games involve skill, some games involve hidden information. I like a game involving all three.
06:22:30 <zzo38> This includes games with cards.
06:23:50 <zzo38> What is your opinion about this?
06:34:08 <itidus21> zzo38: my brother accidently his headphones so he got new ones and gave me his old ones. the problem is the cable is broken.
06:35:01 <itidus21> the main options are to do nothing, get someone to repair them, or repair them myself
06:37:32 <zzo38> Fix them by yourself if you know how. If you don't know how, learn how, unless you would rather get someone else to repair them.
06:38:37 <itidus21> the trouble is not so much that i can't afford someone else, but my profit margin is probably quite slim..
06:38:44 <itidus21> the cable is scary complicated
06:39:57 <itidus21> for one thing it appears all the wires merrily touch each other
06:41:23 <oklopol> zzo38: i only like games whose names start with "mine"
06:42:01 <oerjan> `addquote <oklopol> zzo38: i only like games whose names start with "mine"
06:42:14 <HackEgo> 860) <oklopol> zzo38: i only like games whose names start with "mine"
06:42:32 <oklopol> not too far from the truth even, since i only play minesweeper and minecraft.
06:42:58 <oklopol> also minebombers is an awesome game
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06:49:27 <oerjan> hm what was it impomatic wondered about again
06:50:01 <oerjan> * impomatic wonders if the topic is inspired by Philip K Dick?
06:50:18 <oerjan> not my part of it, anyway
06:50:57 * itidus21 wonders if the total recall remake is inspired by Philip K Dick?
06:51:24 * oerjan cannot recall much about total recall.
06:51:25 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `/hackenv': File exists \ http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16941 \ /hackenv/bin/paste: line 14: /hackenv/paste/paste.16941: No such file or directory
06:51:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12806
06:52:59 <oerjan> `pastelogs changed the topic
06:53:04 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.22269
06:53:28 <oerjan> thought that would be too long :(
06:54:55 <oerjan> impomatic: you'll have to ask Gregor
06:56:09 <itidus21> <olsner> why did PEZ become ESME?
06:58:04 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.26853
07:02:34 <zzo38> It [doesn't] works by tapping out "ESME" into Morse code, then writing "Esme" in to the papers.
07:04:25 <impomatic> oerjan: I've been trying to figure out which book the topic reminded me of. Maybe Ubik or A Scanner Darkly?
07:08:04 <itidus21> @google abandoned fret forgive
07:08:06 <lambdabot> http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/details.php?room=%23esoteric&net=freenode
07:08:06 <lambdabot> Title: #esoteric freenode - Chat Room on IRC - Programming, Computers - irc.netsplit.de
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07:25:36 <zzo38> The `pastelogs will stop if there is too many lines how to make it skip up to a specified date to continue from there?
07:27:13 <oerjan> i don't think that's been implemented
07:27:30 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ \ pasterandom() { \ if [ "$1" -gt 150 ]; then \ echo "No." \ exit \ fi \ for i in $(seq "$1"); do \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ done | paste \ } \ \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ pasterandom "$1" \ else \ lines=$(grep -P -i -- "$1"
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07:31:07 <zzo38> They have "[too many lines; stopping]
07:31:23 <zzo38> Can you make up command of specifying the first date?
07:32:04 <oklopol> well was fun talking to you guys i gotta go now though
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07:50:53 <atriq> quintopia, don't you dare
07:51:23 <oerjan> atriq: we had to fix up your hair salon a bit
07:53:26 <atriq> I'm afraid I'm not the best at explaining things
07:53:58 <oerjan> how does one use parsec with applicative notation...
07:54:30 <zzo38> oerjan: Same as you would use others. Parsec work very well with applicatives
07:54:43 <oerjan> zzo38: i cannot find the bloody instance!
07:55:03 <oerjan> that's what i was trying to load hackage for
07:55:25 <atriq> I'd assume it'd be connected to the Monad instance
07:55:30 <atriq> pure = return, (<*>) = ap
07:55:43 <atriq> I mean, defined in terms of
07:55:49 <oerjan> of course i don't want to _write_ it. it should be there already.
07:56:01 <zzo38> It is there already, isn't it?
07:56:06 <oerjan> unfortunately when parsec was originally made, they made operators that clash with it
07:56:18 <zzo38> Then hide those ones.
07:56:18 <oerjan> zzo38: not when i load Text.Parsec
07:56:33 <zzo38> What version do you have?
07:57:26 <zzo38> Maybe, you can use awk or sed to remove the file other than the first date wanted and the one after that one, and then xargs for grep on each one, and do the same as it already does. For example: BEGIN { x=0 } FirstDate==$0 { x=1 } x
07:57:28 <oerjan> ...i don't know how to find out :(
07:58:23 <zzo38> oerjan: I think the command "cabal info" will tell you which versions are currently installed, but I don't know if it work when Hackage is down
07:58:31 <oerjan> i'm on the verge of closing vim and taking a break but i have a principle of not closing a file that doesn't compile
07:58:45 <atriq> Leave it open and wander off
07:59:25 <oerjan> atriq: um i have no intention of leaving the computer, which means it is impossible to avoid seeing it in the meny
08:00:06 <oerjan> this is the universe's way of punishing me for trying to have fun programming
08:00:16 <atriq> That's why you should have no less than 5 computers on your person at any one time like a sensible person
08:02:43 <zzo38> Can you add this AWK program to the pastelogs to make it works with specifying the start date for loading files?
08:03:03 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found
08:03:23 * oerjan does the big comment around most of non-working program trick
08:04:00 <oerjan> zzo38: anyone can add programs to HackEgo
08:04:17 <zzo38> How do you add a file on there? Is it possible to connect to codu.org directly on some port number to just send the data and then it make a file of it?
08:04:54 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
08:05:51 <zzo38> O, that's how it works. Wouldn't it be better if they designed to work without URLs so that you do not have to send the file twice?
08:07:19 <oerjan> you _can_ do it with shell commands, but that's not exactly easier
08:08:19 <itidus21> one does not simply add a file on there
08:08:50 <zzo38> Can the filename be specified, or do you have to rename it afterward?
08:09:11 <oerjan> i think it uses the filename at end of url
08:09:23 <impomatic> Any idea how to add a new font to Android without rooting? I need a slashed zero!
08:09:30 <itidus21> 404 -One does not simply request mordor.html-
08:09:35 <oerjan> all feature requests go to Gregor :)
08:09:36 <zzo38> And what for directory name? What if the filename at end of URL is wrong can you use # and a filename?
08:10:12 <oerjan> zzo38: it goes into the current directory /hackenv/
08:10:37 <oerjan> um not sure if there's anything before in the path.
08:12:43 <zzo38> Gregor is not on now?
08:25:20 <atriq> I wish to thank this channel
08:25:38 <atriq> For helping me understand groups long before I really needed to
08:25:38 <atriq> And also being cool and stuff
08:25:58 <atriq> Is a group from mathematics the same thing as a monoid from Haskell?
08:26:18 <oerjan> no, monoids don't need inverses
08:27:30 <atriq> I'm really glad I asked that now
08:27:36 <atriq> I had totally missed inverses
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10:20:54 <zzo38> I thought of a kind of compression by a integer; when it is time to read more data you know what the range will be (not necessarily before that), and then you divmod by the range; the remainder is the data read and the quotient is the data to continue reading next time. I have implemented something using binary division.
10:24:12 <zzo38> Basically I used like this (r=remainder, b=bit array, x=range): For i=high bit to low bit of b: r=(r<<1)|b[i]; b[i]=r>=x; r%=x; Would this work OK?
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11:21:43 <atriq> I like today's Lightning Made of Owls
11:22:06 <fizzie`> I am confused about "today" due to a ten-hour timezone change.
11:22:51 <atriq> http://www.mezzacotta.net/owls/
11:22:56 <fizzie`> My name has also acquired some sort of a gnat.
11:23:02 -!- fizzie` has changed nick to fizzie.
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12:33:45 <Arc_Koen> hmmm I've been having the following thought
12:34:14 <Arc_Koen> basically for a program to be reversible, it must not allow information to be destroyed right?
12:34:35 <Arc_Koen> but there's nothing wrong with information being created
12:34:43 <Arc_Koen> so now if we run that program backwards
12:35:04 <Arc_Koen> when you meet the creation of new information
12:35:15 <Arc_Koen> the reverse operation is very simple : destroy it
12:35:46 <Arc_Koen> but that would mean the inverse of that reversible program is not reversible
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12:39:43 <atriq> So, a re-reversible program
12:39:48 <atriq> Can't create information?
12:44:39 <Arc_Koen> I think for instance an instruction like "push a random number on stack" is possible on a reversible program, but not in a re-reversible program
12:45:03 <Arc_Koen> which means we have to use the word "reversible" with caution
12:45:26 <Arc_Koen> or maybe that just means that a program can be reversible without being deterministic
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12:47:47 <Arc_Koen> we may need to add a note about that on the wiki?
12:48:36 <Arc_Koen> btw, Category:Reversible_computing seems to be missing from the Esolang:Categorization page
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13:11:19 <Arc_Koen> atriq: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Real_Fast_Nora%27s_Hair_Salon_3:_Shear_Disaster_Download
13:12:27 <nortti> that is the strangest name for esolang I have ever seen
13:13:13 <Arc_Koen> nortti: I do fail to understand the pun!
13:14:09 <nortti> I know the origin of the name
13:16:42 <nortti> there was a spammer that created page http://esolangs.org/wiki/Real_Fast_Nora%27s_Hair_Salon_3:_Shear_Disaster (If I remember correctly)
13:16:53 <nortti> that is by the way real movie
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13:24:38 <atriq> It's Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster
13:24:38 <atriq> The page the spammer created is the one that still exists
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13:28:31 <Arc_Koen> oh, so "real fast" applied to "download"
13:28:31 <Arc_Koen> you shoudl send a thanking mail to that spammer
13:28:31 <atriq> I think it's a video game, but I'm not sure
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13:28:31 <Arc_Koen> yes at least that would solve the plot problem
13:28:31 <atriq> According to this text I've just recieved, I'm owed 3350 for the PPI I took out.
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13:28:31 <atriq> Payment Protection Insurance is the current gimmick UK scammers are using
13:29:01 <atriq> Something to do with mortgages, I think
13:29:54 <nortti> https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/246646_526302850729844_328991127_n.jpg
13:30:24 <atriq> Already seen it, heh
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13:30:25 <Arc_Koen> atriq: you say real fast nora's hair salon 3 is turing-complete but there's nothing that looks like a proof
13:30:44 <atriq> Arc_Koen, it essentially is Lambda Calculus
13:31:20 <Arc_Koen> I'm not convinced with "It then takes the next complete expression and wraps it in a lambda."
13:31:31 <atriq> The APPLY is a very long way around brackets
13:31:52 <atriq> APPLY x APPLY y z is x (y z), APPLY APPLY x y z is (x y) z
13:32:31 <atriq> ZERO is an expression
13:32:40 <atriq> ONE MORE THAN x is an expression
13:32:45 <atriq> APPLY x y is an expression
13:32:49 <atriq> LAMBDA x is an expression
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13:33:03 <nortti> so is APPLY basicaly ` of unlambda?
13:33:46 <Arc_Koen> ok, and about input and output
13:33:58 <atriq> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is directly inspired by Lazy K
13:34:29 <Arc_Koen> is <program> equivalent to something like "output := APPLY <program> input"?
13:34:55 <nortti> can it do interactive I/O?
13:35:07 <Arc_Koen> ok, so a program must be a LAMBDA
13:35:08 <atriq> nortti, via laziness, about as much as Lazy K can
13:36:26 <atriq> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Lazy_K#Input_and_output
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14:32:37 <Arc_Koen> atriq: I'm not sure how there can be any "interactive IO".
14:33:01 <atriq> Laziness. The actual input can be delayed inevitably
14:34:15 <Arc_Koen> yeah, but output cannot be anticipated
14:34:44 <atriq> I'm pretty sure it can
14:35:44 <Arc_Koen> it should be named Zealous K then
14:36:01 <atriq> More like forwards laziness at the other end
14:36:19 <Arc_Koen> I'd have to take that into account to write an interpreter?
14:36:42 <atriq> You'd have to take that into account to make an interpreter with interactive IO
14:39:06 <Arc_Koen> ok so the only thing I have to care about are: <program> ::= LAMBDA <expr> <expr> ::= ZERO | ONE MORE THAN <expr> | APPLY <expr> <expr> | LAMBDA <expr>
14:39:48 <Arc_Koen> then apply the program to input, and output the result
14:40:04 <atriq> LAMBDA ZERO should be a cat
14:40:07 <Arc_Koen> ok, that seems pretty straightforwart
14:40:54 * Arc_Koen realizes how unfamiliar he is with lambda-calculus
14:41:13 <atriq> It may be a good idea to familiarise yourself with lambda calculus first.
14:42:18 <atriq> LAMBDA APPLY ZERO LAMBDA LAMBDA ZERO should be an "at", or a cat that ignores the first character
14:43:58 <atriq> I may be wrong, of course
14:44:17 <Arc_Koen> LAMBDA LAMBDA ZERO is the constant function that yields identity
14:44:57 <atriq> K would be LAMBDA LAMBDA ONE MORE THAN ZERO
14:45:58 <Arc_Koen> so, LAMBDA APPLY ZERO KI means to apply input to KI
14:46:42 <atriq> It means apply KI to input
14:47:24 <Arc_Koen> so applied to the first char it gives the identity function
14:47:56 <atriq> It takes the input (as a church list)
14:48:24 <atriq> So, \f -> f 'c' (\f -> f 'a' (\f -> f 't' (\f -> ...
14:48:34 <atriq> And applies KI to it
14:49:22 <Arc_Koen> I don't know what the \f -> ... thing means, though
14:49:57 <atriq> Haskell's notation for lambda calculus
14:50:46 <atriq> λf.f 'c' (λf . f 'a' (λf . f 't' (λf. ...
14:50:55 <atriq> is a more conventional notation
14:51:15 * Arc_Koen carefully closes realfasthair.ml
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15:58:13 <Arc_Koen> we bother so much about languages being turing-complete or not
15:58:48 <Arc_Koen> but the church turing thesis does not contain so much as a proof of the "being turing-complete means you can do everything with it" thing?
15:59:32 <kmc> no because you would have to define what "everything" is
15:59:52 <kmc> church turing thesis is not like a mathematical statement that can be proven or disproven
16:00:08 <kmc> it's basically a definition
16:01:30 <kmc> it says that for mathematical purposes we take the fuzzy term "everything you can do" to mean "any function computable by a turing machine"
16:01:56 <kmc> "One can't proceed from the informal to the formal by formal means."
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16:03:07 <Arc_Koen> hmmm that sounds very disappointing
16:03:40 <Arc_Koen> I thought they had a formal definition for "everything"
16:04:27 <Arc_Koen> I mean, "any function computable by a turing machine"... what if someone comes up with an example like the ackerman function, but even worse, that can't be computed by a turing machine?
16:04:51 <Arc_Koen> I mean, what you just said sound like "Mr Turing knew he was very smart, so he asked everyone to take for granted that his model was ultimate."
16:05:32 <kmc> that's dr. turing to you, punk
16:06:24 <kmc> perhaps it's more correct to say that the thesis could be disproven
16:06:40 <kmc> if someone comes up with such a function, and then convinces the world that the function is "effectively calculable"
16:07:12 <kmc> but that is not a mathematical disproof either
16:07:25 <kmc> i mean it's quite easy to describe a function which is not computable
16:07:33 <kmc> like the busy beaver function
16:07:41 <kmc> in fact it grows faster than any computable function
16:07:52 <Arc_Koen> what about http://esolangs.org/wiki/CLooP#.23hyper.3B
16:08:01 <kmc> it's up to the philosophers to argue about whether that is "effectively calculable"
16:08:37 <kmc> you know there's this idea that if you drop a computer into a black hole, you can do an infinite amount of computation in a finite time
16:08:42 <kmc> but you can't get the result back out
16:08:47 <Arc_Koen> well, I just lost faith in computer science
16:09:20 <kmc> perhaps in time you will reach a fuller understanding of the relationship between mathematics, philosophy, and empiricism
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16:12:13 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, he's like itidus21 but with computer science rather than philosophy
16:12:48 <atriq> Arc_Koen, I'm joking
16:12:48 <kmc> it's actually pretty tricky to wrap your head around this stuff
16:13:18 <Arc_Koen> still it is very disappointing
16:13:30 <kmc> i mean basically
16:13:31 <kmc> <Arc_Koen> I thought they had a formal definition for "everything"
16:13:35 <kmc> that definition is turing machine
16:14:04 <kmc> or if you like lambda calculus, they are equivalently powerful
16:14:08 <Arc_Koen> so basically Turing came up with his Turing machine, Church with his lambda-calculus, they proved the two models were equivalent, and then what?
16:14:13 <kmc> or any of 1,000 other things
16:14:18 <kmc> Arc_Koen: and then computer science happened
16:14:53 <kmc> original gangsta
16:15:36 <Arc_Koen> ok ok; that's a pretty good start and all, but have every computer scientist just said "ok, let's take those models as the ultimate thing, and never question them"?
16:15:52 <kmc> there is an entire field of studying "what if" more powerful things existed
16:16:08 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetical_hierarchy
16:16:26 <kmc> admittedly most people would call this maths and not CS
16:16:47 <kmc> we are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars
16:17:17 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: even if CS is a subset of maths my statement makes sense
16:17:45 <kmc> Arc_Koen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_machine
16:17:58 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercomputer
16:18:34 <Arc_Koen> yup I gave the oracle machine a look when I ran into Category:Uncomputable on the wiki
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16:19:42 <Arc_Koen> well all that stuff sounds very interesting, thank you guys
16:20:53 <Arc_Koen> (still it does sound like "oh btw, did I mention the bridge you've been walking on for the last few years has never been tested? It could potentially collapse at any moment.")
16:23:30 <kmc> not really
16:23:55 <kmc> whenever you're doing anything formal, you have axioms
16:24:03 <kmc> the axioms are not proven, by definition
16:24:15 <kmc> you can argue about whether the axioms match "the real world" but that is a philosophical argument and not a formal one
16:27:03 <kmc> you can't prove that induction works either
16:27:07 <kmc> that should bother you a lot more
16:27:38 <kmc> yeah induction always worked before, so it must work now
16:27:44 <kmc> anti-induction never worked before, so it must work now
16:28:11 <Arc_Koen> hmm well my answer to "why does induction work?" would be "it's logical"
16:28:57 <quintopia> i cant prove anti-induction! not even by induction! it must be false.
16:28:58 <Arc_Koen> then you're probably gonna tell me about the axiom of choice, but at some point I will lose interest because really, that does sound like philosophy
16:29:20 <Arc_Koen> turing machines never sounded like philosophy to me before, though
16:30:07 <Arc_Koen> I mean, I really thought they had a formal definition of the intuitive "turing-complete means you can use it to compute anything"
16:30:33 <Arc_Koen> I had never really bothered to look for it before today, though
16:31:47 <kmc> but if there were such a formal definition
16:31:48 <quintopia> the church-turing thesis is our religion and godel is our saint
16:32:03 <kmc> you would still be in a position to argue about whether that formal definition matches our intuitive idea of "everything you can do"
16:34:06 <Arc_Koen> kmc: yeah but I wouldn't care about that much
16:34:13 <kmc> but it's the same thing
16:34:22 <Arc_Koen> I mean, "everything you can do" is obviously a very unformal way to say things
16:34:57 <kmc> here look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_method
16:35:01 <Arc_Koen> I do not expect my brainfuck program to build a time-traveling machine, or to produce coffee
16:35:06 <kmc> this is an attempt at like a semi-formal definition of what we're talking about
16:35:36 <kmc> now imagine that you try to formalize the ideas of "series of rote steps" and "completed in a finite number of steps" and such
16:37:18 <Arc_Koen> In simple terms, the Church–Turing thesis states that a function is effectively calculable if and only if it is computable by a Turing machine.
16:37:24 <Arc_Koen> and then "it cannot be proven"
16:37:36 <Arc_Koen> I'm skeptic. do they have a proof that it cannot be proven?
16:38:21 <Arc_Koen> the Riemann hypothesis, for instance, has not been proven yet, but nobody said it couldn't
16:38:34 <Arc_Koen> (and of course it may be wrong but that's not proven either)
16:38:48 <kmc> you can't formally prove something which is not stated in formal terms
16:39:03 <kmc> "One can't proceed from the informal to the formal by formal means."
16:39:11 <kmc> that's what they mean by "cannot be proven"
16:39:27 <kmc> if you sit down to formalize the idea of "effectively calculable"
16:39:31 <kmc> then you invent something like a turing machine
16:39:34 <kmc> and you're back where we are now
16:39:50 <kmc> the church-turing thesis is not the same kind of thing as the riemann hypothesis
16:48:07 <kmc> <Arc_Koen> turing machines never sounded like philosophy to me before, though
16:48:13 <kmc> turing machines are not philosophy
16:48:25 <kmc> they are a mathematical object, like sets or the natural numbers etc
16:48:37 <kmc> and you can prove things about them with whatever degree of rigor you like
16:48:52 <kmc> but (also like sets and the natural numbers) you can have philosophical arguments about to what degree these things model "the real world"
16:49:49 <soundnfury> yeah, but like, /obviously/ there's a Platonic turing machine in the perfect realm of the forms, dude
16:50:27 <kmc> *bonghit noises*
16:51:06 <atriq> Can the Platonic turing machine feel love?
16:51:10 <soundnfury> hey, not /all/ neoplatonist thinkers in the Western Renaissance developed their philosophy under the influence of drugs.
16:51:18 <kmc> just descartes ;)
16:51:37 <oklopol> are we discussing the matrix of solidity
16:51:58 <kmc> five tons of flax
16:52:22 <kmc> eight megs and constantly swapping
16:52:33 <soundnfury> eventually munches all computer storage?
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16:52:43 <atriq> I think I've spent too long on Tumblr
16:53:51 <oklopol> also on one of the many painful lectures on the church turing thesis i've endured there was some discussion about why "whether the real numbers are what geometry actually talks about" is never questioned while the church turing thesis keeps being debated
16:54:22 <oklopol> and the reason was stated to be the obvious one: the first attempt at a formal definition was wrong.
16:54:50 <oklopol> just wanted to mention this because i thought it was a nice observation. kinda obvious i guess.
16:55:05 <kmc> what was the first attempt? primitive recursion?
16:55:15 <kmc> weren't there some wrong attempts at real numbers too?
16:55:28 <kmc> also plenty of wrong attempts at set theory
16:55:28 <oklopol> yeah i just started wondering about aht
16:55:41 <kmc> people do keep arguing about set theory but they get weird looks from most other mathematicians
16:55:44 <oklopol> well set theory also kind of keeps getting questioned by silly people :P
16:56:01 <oklopol> okay i guess silly people also question the reals... but usually for other reasons
16:56:22 * kmc questions the reals
16:56:40 <kmc> i mean, one real contains an infinite amount of information
16:56:43 <kmc> that's just fucked up
16:56:59 <kmc> almost all real numbers can never be defined, used, or thought about it any way
16:57:09 <oklopol> you must have a typo there because you just claimed that a _single number_ is somehow... infinite
16:57:26 <oklopol> i mean they can't seriously think that????
16:57:28 <kmc> not that the number has infinite magnitude, but that it contains an infinite amount of information
16:57:44 <kmc> just write out the decimal expansion
16:57:51 <kmc> a real number can have an infinitely long, non-repeating decimal expansion
16:57:54 <kmc> in fact almost all of them do
16:57:56 <oklopol> i mean come one where do you put it unless the magnitude???
16:58:05 <oklopol> wait are we still doing a bit
16:58:18 <kmc> i'm the tortoise
16:58:18 <pikhq> Well, they're blatantly non-computable, so they must go in magic places.
16:58:45 <Arc_Koen> oklopol: I don't know, I think the only reason we have real numbers is because rationals didn't include the diagonal of a square, and transcendental numbers didn't include Pi, e or other random constants
16:59:16 <pikhq> The computables are so much better.
16:59:41 <Arc_Koen> I mean, without sqrt(2) and Pi, who would have ever complained about rational numbers? and we currently don't have *needs* for something more than reals, but what-if?
16:59:42 <oklopol> what's your definition of transcendental number?
16:59:55 <kmc> man 2 sqrt
16:59:56 <pikhq> Arc_Koen: We can't even use the reals.
17:00:03 <oklopol> because usually it's the complement of algebraic numbers
17:00:10 <pikhq> Arc_Koen: There exist reals which require a halting oracle to compute.
17:00:10 <oklopol> and it in fact does contain pi
17:00:54 <pikhq> It is in fact strictly *necessary* for there to be reals which cannot be computed.
17:00:55 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaitin's_constant
17:01:00 <kmc> in fact almost all reals cannot be computed
17:01:11 <kmc> because there are countably many turing machines and uncountably many reals
17:01:37 <pikhq> Yup. Wrong cardinality.
17:01:41 <kmc> and each of those reals contains an infinite amount of (Kolmogorov) information
17:01:47 <Arc_Koen> oh, well that doesn't bother me
17:01:51 <kmc> IT SHOULD!
17:01:59 <kmc> real numbers is a word masturbation
17:02:02 <kmc> you are educated stupid
17:02:26 <Arc_Koen> I've personally never tried to compute the digits of Pi, yet I've been "using" that number for a very long time
17:02:34 <pikhq> What bothers me is when people refer to the floats as "real numbers".
17:02:48 <kmc> "god is real, unless declared integer"
17:03:00 <pikhq> There are floats that aren't in the set of reals, and vice versa.
17:03:11 <Sgeo_> http://what-if.xkcd.com/11/ Why does Munroe's equation imply there are 16 hours in a day?
17:03:15 <Arc_Koen> pikhq: well, to store data on computer one needs to "approximate" continuous as discrete
17:03:25 <pikhq> Arc_Koen: NAN is not a real, but it is a float.
17:03:44 <kmc> i am not a number, i am a free variable!
17:03:48 <Sgeo_> Haskell has libraries for exact real numbers
17:04:13 <Sgeo_> Um, it does occur to me that not all real numbers can be represented, even with such a library
17:04:25 <pikhq> Sgeo_: By necessity.
17:04:35 <kmc> not just "not all" but "almost none"
17:04:37 <pikhq> Sgeo_: The computable numbers are countable.
17:04:38 <kmc> a set of measure zero
17:04:56 <soundnfury> kmc: Ok, I get that you prefer computable numbers to reals, but come on, analytic completeness is handy
17:05:01 <oklopol> i think the real problem isn't that float has a few special values, that's just computer blah blah. the real big difference is that the floats aren't even a decent subset of the rationals
17:05:08 <quintopia> Sgeo_: it's hard to keep your mouth open and pointed at the sky while asleep, so he only counts waking hours
17:05:13 <kmc> soundnfury: yeah, well, i'm a computerologist and not a mathematician
17:05:17 <soundnfury> you can't exactly put calculus on a sound footing in the computables
17:05:21 <kmc> is that so?
17:05:23 <kmc> i have heard that you can
17:05:25 <kmc> but did not try
17:05:30 <kmc> you can take limits of computable numbers
17:05:36 <kmc> of computable sequences of computable numbers
17:05:47 <soundnfury> yeah, but said limits are not guaranteed to exist
17:05:56 <soundnfury> unless you have a wacko definition of computability
17:05:57 <Sgeo_> quintopia, it's also hard to live for 300 years.
17:06:06 <oklopol> soundnfury: isn't there some kind of computable analytic completeness for the computable reals which works just as well in computable analysis?
17:06:12 <soundnfury> that says something like a limit of a computable sequence of computables is computable...
17:06:15 <Sgeo_> ...where did I get the number 300 from? It's 195
17:06:19 <oklopol> (which i know 0 about but i've heard the term a lot)
17:06:32 <soundnfury> but really, that causes more problems than it solves
17:07:11 <pikhq> There's a number of properties the floats straight-up don't have.
17:07:11 <kmc> why shouldn't a limit of a computable sequence of computables be computable?
17:07:21 <kmc> pikhq: like reflexivity of equality? ;P
17:07:26 <pikhq> x == x does not hold. a+b == b+a does not hold. And so on.
17:07:59 <soundnfury> kmc: I'm not 100% sure, but all my mathmo's reflexes are screaming "this is not well-founded"
17:08:36 <kmc> to get the nth digit of the limit, you step through the sequence until the (known, computable) convergence bound is close enough, and then you get the right digit of that number
17:09:01 <soundnfury> I mean, for one thing, recursing this is going to give us some kind of ordinal induction shit
17:10:40 <soundnfury> and I'm not convinced that the computables are going to be a recursive set and that worries me
17:11:16 <soundnfury> or even recursively enumerable for that matter
17:11:41 <soundnfury> oklopol: because once you've got new computables from limits, you can then make sequences with those
17:12:06 <soundnfury> and you can do this lots of times, possibly big-fat-ordinal-ly many times
17:12:13 <oklopol> i see how that'd be a problem if they were some new kind of computable
17:12:24 <soundnfury> (or possibly not, it depends on your defn of computable number)
17:12:25 <pikhq> soundnfury: A set is computable iff it is recursive.
17:12:45 <oklopol> i figured we defined convergence so that you have actual closure under limits
17:13:16 <soundnfury> pikhq: yeah but I'm not convinced the set of computable numbers (where limits are included in the defn thereof) is a computable set
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17:14:41 <soundnfury> also the definition of a recursive set is for subsets of the naturals, not subsets of the reals, so we have a problem there
17:14:52 <pikhq> The set of computable functions is trivially computable. The set of computable numbers is defined by the subset of the set of computable functions that results in numbers. Thus, the set of computable numbers is a computable set.
17:15:45 <soundnfury> anyway, the point is that trying to stick analytic structure on the computable numbers (or any countable subset of the reals, in fact) gives me the screaming blue willies
17:16:46 <pikhq> (to compute the computable functions: map ASCII strings to naturals. For each natural, test if it parses in $language. This is an inefficient, but functioning, generator of computable functions.)
17:17:24 <kmc> that only demonstrates that they are recursively enumerable, i think
17:17:40 <soundnfury> yeah I think we need to identify reals with functions
17:17:50 <soundnfury> because the computable numbers are a subset of the reals, not a subset of the naturals
17:18:57 <Phantom_Hoover> soundnfury, the computable reals biject with the naturals.
17:19:04 <pikhq> Telling if a given number is computable might be... Nasty.
17:19:23 <kmc> i mean, what form does the turing machine get that number in
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17:19:57 <oklopol> telling if a given number is computable sounds like blah blah blah rice's theorem
17:20:09 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: sure, they're countable. But viewing them as a kind of natural number doesn't give you analytic structure
17:21:16 <kmc> i think "is the set of computable numbers computable" is not a well posed question
17:21:19 <pikhq> Kay, the set of computable numbers might only be recursively enumerable?
17:21:27 <kmc> because how do you feed a possibly not-computable number into your turing machine to ask if it's computable?
17:21:53 <kmc> it's like asking if the set of computable languages is computable
17:22:57 <pikhq> 'course, the set of reals is clearly not computable. :)
17:23:57 <soundnfury> but if you have some oracle that has a real number x, and you're allowed to ask it questions about x (where I haven't defined what 'questions' are but I probably should),
17:24:06 <soundnfury> you can't generally determine whether x is computable
17:24:28 <soundnfury> can you, however, guarantee that if it is you'll eventually determine that?
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17:35:55 <atriq> "If you compute x, a great empire will fall!"
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17:39:41 <oklopol> ...but in any case i do agree with soundnfury, it doesn't sound like you'd get an equally nice theory.
17:41:08 <soundnfury> yay, I have been agreed with on #esoteric
17:41:27 <soundnfury> ... who are you and what have you done with the real #esoteric?
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17:51:38 <oklopol> well i'm wondering about the same thing since i seem to recall we haven't agreed on much sofar :D
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18:14:20 <Vorpal> anyone knows a good way to convert a .spc tracker file to any sort of wave format
18:14:31 <Vorpal> SPC is an SNES tracker file btw
18:14:39 <Vorpal> the issue is my phone doesn't play those
18:14:41 <zzo38> Use a SNES emulator?
18:14:50 <olsner> "convert" is probably not the right verb
18:15:14 <zzo38> (Well, I think the audio chip is a separate program in SNES, so you only need to emulate that chip and not the entire SNES)
18:15:18 <Vorpal> sure whatever the terminology
18:15:28 <Vorpal> I just want a wav file so I can put it on my phone :P
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18:15:41 <olsner> instead of using the wav file, compress it somehow first
18:15:46 <olsner> and/or get a snes emulator for your phone
18:16:02 <Vorpal> for the first: duh, but wav is easy to compress from
18:16:04 <quintopia> Vorpal: http://www.purezc.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3612
18:16:07 <zzo38> Do SPC files include a length? Do they contain a program, like NSF and so on do?
18:16:11 <Vorpal> and for the second, I like the stock media player
18:16:20 <Vorpal> I don't want to play the game on the phone either
18:16:34 <Vorpal> zzo38, they are a memory dump of the sound chipset memory iirc
18:16:50 <Vorpal> they do seem to be able to include infinite loops, so I need to restrict that somehow
18:18:31 <Vorpal> quintopia, well that doesn't seem to end up with a wave file, but rather an .it file
18:18:50 <quintopia> and then you open the .it in mpt and output it to a wave
18:19:17 <quintopia> (after editing it to make sure it only includes the parts you want)
18:19:44 <Vorpal> surely there is a simpler way to do this?
18:19:53 <Vorpal> since they just play in vlc
18:19:57 <Vorpal> and display a length there
18:20:16 <quintopia> record it from your sound card with your favorite recording program
18:23:52 <Vorpal> quintopia, why is it that many modern onboard sound solutions lack a virtual input for the sound output
18:24:03 <Vorpal> my SB Live has it of course
18:24:09 <quintopia> i wouldnt know. i've never had that problem
18:25:17 <Vorpal> hey there is vlc for android
18:25:22 <Vorpal> I wonder if it can play these files too
18:25:44 <Vorpal> sadly it is still in beta and last I tried it, it was very buggy
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18:40:09 <fizzie> I must be missing something that makes "play in VLC, record what's being played" a reasonable thing to do, as opposed to just telling VLC to write the audio to file instead of/in addition to playing it.
18:42:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh you can do that?
18:42:58 <fizzie> It has that whole stream/save GUI dialog; and the command line that I forget how to use.
18:43:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, how would converting it work if the tracker file has an infinite loop in it?
18:44:18 <fizzie> If you do the "also play locally", you can press stop when you've had enough, I'd think.
18:44:38 <fizzie> See http://wiki.videolan.org/Extract_audio if you want the command line magic.
18:44:59 <Vorpal> I guess I could add a bit of fade at the end after or something
18:45:13 <Vorpal> since the music consists of intro followed by infinite loop
18:49:31 <Vorpal> also vlc on phone doesn't do tracker files it seems
18:52:18 <quintopia> yeah, i pretty much don't understand how RFNHS3:SDD works. this description is terrible.
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19:30:31 <atriq> Can someone remind me that extrapolation is a very bad thing?
19:31:20 <Arc_Koen> when do you want that remainder to strike you?
19:31:32 <atriq> Round about now would be nice
19:32:24 <Arc_Koen> I'll ask lambda bot to remind you of that
19:32:39 <Arc_Koen> @tell atriq EXTRAPOLATION. IS. VERY. BAD.
19:32:55 -!- FreeFull has joined.
19:33:21 <Arc_Koen> in some cases I'm pretty sure extrapolations can be good
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19:33:38 <atriq> I've been trying to predict how long Act 6 Intermission 3 of Homestuck is going to be.
19:33:38 <lambdabot> atriq: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:33:42 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen said 1m 3s ago: EXTRAPOLATION. IS. VERY. BAD.
19:33:50 <atriq> @tell Arc_Koen Thank you.
19:34:21 <Arc_Koen> I'm trying very hard right now not to type "@tell atriq you're welcom"
19:34:22 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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19:44:02 <atriq> Learn something every day
19:44:02 <lambdabot> atriq: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:44:09 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen said 8m 37s ago: You're welcome!
19:44:26 <lambdabot> Don't try to take on a new personality; it doesn't work.
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19:46:26 <atriq> fizzie, where's fungot?
19:48:10 <fizzie> I tried to thing but thing's a long time.
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19:48:54 <fungot> olsner: did you let it!), and c1 x is x.
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19:52:23 <fizzie> I wokked up some kind of 30 hours ago, but don't want to get all misdiurnaligned.
19:56:14 <olsner> not sleeping for 30 hours seems worse than being a bit misaligned
19:57:33 <fizzie> There weren't really opportunities.
19:57:43 <fizzie> Should've'pt'n'e'lane.
19:58:36 <fizzie> There was this interactive multimedia system, I mostly just fiddled with that.
19:58:44 <fizzie> Those seats don't run. I mean, recline much.
19:59:58 <Arc_Koen> "an interesting problem crossed my path, and when I looked up to the clock, 30 hours had passed already"
20:00:29 <olsner> hmm, "interactive multimedia system"... does that mean you've been playing VIDEO GAMES?
20:00:58 <fizzie> olsner: No, it's the personal video/audio on demand kind of thing. (Okay, it had some games.)
20:01:24 <fizzie> Also including Bejeweled®.
20:02:03 <Arc_Koen> "wait, they have an implementation of lode runner in here? let's try it... holy crap we're tomorrow!"
20:03:47 <fizzie> The person in the next seat was playing some kind of "learn a language" word-matching phrase-filling whatevernot kind of game, and doing that for Finnish.
20:10:30 <zzo38> I made up a word "anticategory" for a semigroupoid(category except identity) which has no endomorphisms.
20:12:23 <olsner> fizzie: did he finnish the game?
20:13:28 <fizzie> olsner: She, and at least some levels, yes.
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20:58:45 <olsner> Arc_Koen: I suspect fizzie was too slep to notice the pun
20:59:04 <Arc_Koen> well it did take me 40 minutes
21:08:35 <fizzie> olsner: No, I noticed it.
21:08:47 <fizzie> olsner: I just didn't want to dignify it with a response.
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21:43:26 <zzo38> After I make the Elemental Solitaire Famicom game, then I might make up the hangman game on Famicom, using the Famicom keyboard.
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21:47:39 <zzo38> I want to try to write some software on it.
21:48:28 <zzo38> (The only hardware I have is a clone, which has a 60-pin slot and some games built-in, many of which do not work properly.)
21:48:55 <zzo38> (I also have no way to program a ROM cartridge. But, I do have emulator, so I can use that.)
21:52:16 <zzo38> And decimal mode doesn't work.
21:52:20 <quintopia> did that LFSR PRNG work out for you
21:52:38 <zzo38> I decided not to use it; I am using something else.
21:54:44 <zzo38> Rather, it uses ARCFOUR to shuffle the deck many times per frame, and has a limit equal to the number of cards remaining in the deck (at first 52); this limit is reduced when cards are dealt, causing the memory for cards already dealt to remain static until the game is restarted.
21:55:41 <zzo38> (It seems easier to simulate modulus arithmetic if doing it this way, for one thing.)
21:56:17 <zzo38> The open-source and non-trademarked version of RC4
21:56:39 <zzo38> (Actually only a part of the ARCFOUR algorithm is used; not all of it.)
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21:59:16 <oerjan> 12:34:14: <Arc_Koen> basically for a program to be reversible, it must not allow information to be destroyed right?
21:59:19 <oerjan> 12:34:35: <Arc_Koen> but there's nothing wrong with information being created
21:59:31 <oerjan> no, those are equally forbidden.
22:00:17 <zzo38> This is the code to shuffle the cards: http://sprunge.us/PNJM
22:00:25 <oerjan> well i guess you could have a weaker version of reversible as you say
22:00:27 <Arc_Koen> my point was that a program could be "reversible" (not sure that's the right word) without its reverse being reversible as well
22:02:01 <shachaf> zzo38: Can I access sprunge.us over Gopher?
22:02:07 <oerjan> most programming languages don't actually create information most of the time
22:02:17 <oerjan> since they are deterministic
22:02:51 <zzo38> shachaf: Unfortunately not because it seems to requires a Host: header.
22:02:53 <Arc_Koen> hmm, well you can ask for input, or use functions like a random number, or stuff
22:03:06 <shachaf> zzo38: Gopher doesn't have that?
22:03:11 <shachaf> Wow, what a useless protocol.
22:03:18 <shachaf> The Internet *NEEDS* a Host: header!
22:03:25 <zzo38> Actually, you can do it without a Host: header, as follows: gopher://sprunge.us:80/0http://sprunge.us/PNJM
22:03:37 <zzo38> Actually, you can do it without a Host: header, as follows: gopher://sprunge.us:80/0GET%20http://sprunge.us/PNJM
22:03:39 <Arc_Koen> I'm sure many programming languages have functions to "put stuff back on the input buffer"
22:04:07 <Arc_Koen> though "take stuff back from the output buffer" is impossible if it has been flushed
22:04:13 <zzo38> shachaf: With IPv6 you don't need, which is why some gopher is IPv6-only.
22:05:04 <kmc> gopher will make a comeback!
22:05:25 <zzo38> Except for a problem with the sprunge.us it is using Google server which has a bug making headerless HTTP not working properly.
22:05:29 <zzo38> Please tell Google to fix this.
22:05:43 <lambdabot> Title: Most wanted ever | Please fix the iPhone
22:07:19 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: so did you read the whole log before you joined?
22:08:10 <oerjan> <Arc_Koen> oh, so "real fast" applied to "download"
22:08:21 <oerjan> no i _am_ reading the whole log.
22:08:44 <oerjan> darn i was imagining Nora as the fastest hairdresser ever :(
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22:10:50 <Arc_Koen> so I had an idea for a nondeterministic program
22:11:13 <oerjan> ...Nora apparently died in the first movie, so I guess not.
22:11:40 <Arc_Koen> something that'd use Pascal's triangle - that is, have an "instruction pointer" bounce off several nodes before hitting an instruction to execute
22:12:38 <Arc_Koen> and maybe some of the instruction would make the instruction pointer bounce back into that structure. or maybe there can be flow control instructions on the node
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22:13:52 <oerjan> like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bean_machine ?
22:14:19 <Arc_Koen> (well, if that's what I think it is)
22:14:35 <Sgeo> I have a quick question for everyone, but I want to ask it someplace that's not logged
22:14:46 <oerjan> well i got to it by googling "pascal's triangle binomial distribution balls"
22:14:59 <oerjan> since i couldn't remember what it was called
22:15:16 <oerjan> Sgeo: that's ok it's just hemorrhoids
22:15:54 <Arc_Koen> Sgeo: maybe you can paste it in a place that's cleared every day
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22:19:56 <itidus21> Sgeo: is #sgeosquestion logged?
22:24:29 <oerjan> <atriq> LAMBDA APPLY ZERO LAMBDA LAMBDA ZERO should be an "at", or a cat that ignores the first character
22:25:31 <quintopia> oerjan: can you explain why RFNHS3:SDD is turing-complete?
22:25:46 <oerjan> quintopia: because it encodes lambda calculus, duh
22:26:11 <oerjan> quintopia: it's de bruijn notation, i wrote
22:26:22 <quintopia> i don't understand de bruijn notation really
22:26:57 <oerjan> you replace "n" by the variable of the n'th surrounding lambda. starting at 0'th in this case.
22:28:37 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: though I appreciate the de bruijn link, your explanation on the channel was far more explicit than the one on the wiki page, if I recall correctly
22:29:27 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: well the thing is that actually doing the application with de bruikn indices is a bit complicated - you need to adjust some of the numbers
22:30:00 <oerjan> so i couldn't be bothered to write it all out
22:30:01 <Arc_Koen> cause of names clash or something?
22:30:41 <Arc_Koen> quintopia: so basically, by default the variable in a lambda expression is named ZERO
22:30:48 <oerjan> but when you copy an expression to a different level, all the numbers that refer outside the expression need to be added a constant to
22:31:16 <oerjan> while those that refer _inside_ the expression are kept as is
22:31:24 <Arc_Koen> but if you have LAMBDA (... LAMBDA(...)), the ZERO in the innermost lambda is the variable of the innermost lambda; so the variable of the toplevel lambda is ONE MORE THAN ZERO
22:32:12 <Arc_Koen> in particular the variable of a lambda may be named differently in different parts of the expression
22:32:13 <oerjan> ok atriq's at looks right when i fixed my error
22:32:42 <oerjan> didn't i write that on the wiki...
22:32:56 <Arc_Koen> but you did write that on this channel :)
22:38:13 <Arc_Koen> quintopia: λx.(x λy.xy) would be written as λ(ZERO λ(ONE ZERO))
22:39:19 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: expanded the wiki explanation a bit, probably still hard to read :P
22:39:49 <Arc_Koen> (except it would actually be LAMBDA APPLY ZERO LAMBDA APPLY ONE MORE THAN ZERO ZERO)
22:40:27 <Arc_Koen> but I feel like I'm hurting my computer when writing like that
22:40:58 <kmc> are you programming in Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download?
22:41:07 <kmc> is there a webapp framework for Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download yet?
22:41:23 <Arc_Koen> I don't know what a webapp framework is
22:41:29 <Arc_Koen> but it is in the Unimplemented category
22:41:34 <kmc> it's a framework which helps you write web applications
22:41:35 * oerjan for a microsecond considers replacing ESME by Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster in the topic
22:42:40 <zzo38> Perhaps send a message to people making sprunge tell them to remove the HTTP headers.
22:42:56 <kmc> we need RFNHS3:SDD.NET
22:43:35 <Arc_Koen> don't forget the Download PART
22:43:56 <Arc_Koen> otherwise people will think the hairdresser is real fast!
22:45:06 <oerjan> 14:46:42: <atriq> It means apply KI to input
22:45:23 <oerjan> i think atriq is _still_ confused about the term "apply to"
22:46:06 <oerjan> one applies a function to an argument, but he seems to be using it in reverse
22:46:48 <oerjan> but his actual examples show he means RFNHS3SDD to have the usual order
22:47:50 <itidus21> i can only imagine this isn't helped by everything potentially being a function and an argument
22:48:42 <oerjan> no no, itidus21 don't faint, it's _okay_ to be right occasionally!
22:49:12 <Arc_Koen> APPLY LAMBDA APPLY ZERO ZERO LAMBDA APPLY ZERO ZERO
22:49:16 * oerjan swats himself for being evil -----###
22:50:37 <Arc_Koen> that's actually the example that made me began to not understand how ocaml worked
22:51:31 <oerjan> i don't think that's the same...
22:51:34 <Arc_Koen> (ok it could be less confusing as "let f x = x in f f"
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22:52:22 <oerjan> unless you give option -t to ocaml
22:52:55 <oerjan> yes there's an option to allow cyclic types, i used it for an unlambda -> ocaml "compiler"
22:53:18 <oerjan> not quite sure it was called -t
22:53:28 <Arc_Koen> well -t is not in the toplevel otpions
22:53:43 <Arc_Koen> -rectypes Allow arbitrary recursive types
22:55:27 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/unl2caml/
22:55:48 <Arc_Koen> (the second line I interrupted because apparently it was indeed an infinite loop)
22:57:22 <Arc_Koen> # let y = (let x x = x in x x) in y y;;
22:57:30 <Arc_Koen> hummmm never had "as 'a" before
22:57:47 <oerjan> haskell has the newtype declaration instead, which requires you to explicitly wrap things but is deleted on compilation
22:58:51 <Arc_Koen> # (let y = (let x x = x in x x) in y y) 3;;
22:58:51 <Arc_Koen> Error: This expression has type int but an expression was expected of type
22:59:01 <Arc_Koen> that was supposed to yield a 3
22:59:53 <Arc_Koen> "let x x = x" makes x the identity; "in x x" is id id which is id; so y is id; so y y is id; so (...) 3 should be 3
23:00:28 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: 'a -> 'a as 'a means a function which takes its own type as argument and result. you cannot pass it an int.
23:01:59 <oerjan> no lots of other things fit, e.g. any pure lambda expression
23:02:28 <oerjan> 'a -> 'a as 'a basically is the closest thing you can get to untyped lambda calculus
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23:03:31 <hagb4rd> would be nice to have such comments automatically beeing associated with these 'expressions' by a bot, to be accessible for other users looking for help/comments
23:04:17 <oerjan> hagb4rd: `pastelogs, hth
23:06:11 <hagb4rd> erm can you make make an example for "'a -> 'a as 'a" and "means a function which takes its own type as argument and result. you cannot pass it an int"
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23:07:25 <Arc_Koen> @tell atriq so your church incrementation excerpt translates to λxyzt.x z (y z t), right?
23:07:33 <oerjan> 16:13:31: <kmc> <Arc_Koen> I thought they had a formal definition for "everything"
23:07:36 <oerjan> 16:13:35: <kmc> that definition is turing machine
23:07:38 <oerjan> 16:14:04: <kmc> or if you like lambda calculus, they are equivalently powerful
23:07:50 <Arc_Koen> haha, now you're getting to the interesting part of the log :)
23:08:06 <shachaf> That's not everything, is it?
23:08:20 <shachaf> You can talk about things more powerful than Turing machines, though.
23:08:52 <oerjan> part of what makes the church-turing thesis so believable is that every time they have invented another way to compute that can actually be realistically achieved, it turns out to be at most that powerful
23:09:18 <Arc_Koen> so what about those quantum computers
23:09:52 <oerjan> still not more powerful. exponentially faster in some cases, but given enough time, they're the same strength.
23:10:22 <oerjan> proof: a classical computer can simulate a quantum computer using exponential time
23:10:44 <Arc_Koen> well we probably have to wait for the time-travel machine then
23:10:52 <oerjan> (it's just complex matrix calculations, after all)
23:12:10 <hagb4rd> can we use the effect of quantum entanglement in some way to speed up things in some way?
23:13:07 <oerjan> hagb4rd: well that's the theory of quantum computing. at most exponential speedup, however. (and not for all calculations, prime factorization is the most famous one.)
23:13:17 <Jafet> Yes. It's called quantum computing
23:13:33 <oerjan> i'll just have to quote the tagline of scott aronson's blog...
23:14:02 <oerjan> "Quantum computers are not known to be able"
23:14:02 <oerjan> to solve NP-complete problems in polynomial time,
23:14:05 <oerjan> and can be simulated classically with exponential slowdown.
23:14:19 <oerjan> why doesn't irssi have dwim pasting :(
23:15:44 <oerjan> <Arc_Koen> @tell atriq so your church incrementation excerpt translates to λxyzt.x z (y z t), right? <-- that looks correct for incrementation, anyway
23:18:01 <oerjan> heh this recent post looks a bit relevant, and funny :P http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1121
23:34:47 <hagb4rd> "If you want a Turing machine to toast bread, you need to connect it to a toaster; then the TM can easily handle the toaster’s internal logic (unless this particular toaster requires solving the halting problem or something like that to determine how brown the bread should be!). " *laugh
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23:42:32 <itidus21> although, the TM may still be working on the logic long after your hunger passes
23:43:21 <Arc_Koen> another argument in favour of quantum toasting
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00:01:08 <zzo38> Is there any FPGA/CPLD where the software to program it is built-in to the device itself instead of requiring a PC?
00:03:52 <oerjan> <Arc_Koen> (still it does sound like "oh btw, did I mention the bridge you've been walking on for the last few years has never been tested? It could potentially collapse at any moment.")
00:04:27 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_vacuum hth >:)
00:05:13 <Arc_Koen> In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_field_theory, a false vacuum is a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metastability sector of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space that appears to be a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_state, but is unstable due to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instanton effects that may http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_tunnelling to a lower energy state.
00:05:19 <Arc_Koen> thanks wikipedia, that explains a lot
00:05:32 <oerjan> ...what kind of copy/paste is that.
00:06:11 <Arc_Koen> uhm I've been using colloquy for a couple weeks and its behaviour is often... unexpected
00:06:13 <oerjan> the introduction is not very helpful.
00:08:03 <Arc_Koen> I'm trying very hard to believe that what follow is
00:08:37 <oerjan> try the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schild%27s_Ladder link in there instead.
00:16:15 <itidus21> i think the part about it being in quantum field theory may be a red herring to understanding what a false vacuum is
00:20:18 <oerjan> that _does_ tend to hide the sheer horror of it under incomprehensible math, yes.
00:22:03 <Arc_Koen> and thanks for all the interesting new stuff
00:22:11 <itidus21> it all sounds so fun all these big words
00:22:31 <oerjan> http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/120914.html :P
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00:26:03 <zzo38> Can this be used to make a program on microcontrollers (and on the FPGA itself) to do dynamic programming on FPGA? http://dfusion.com.au/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=AT40K+Bitstream+Format
00:26:50 <itidus21> oerjan: well this is the problem with the universe http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/120907.html
00:32:00 <itidus21> and heres what the comic points to
00:32:24 <itidus21> i just happened to have open http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorites_paradox
00:33:42 <itidus21> so the thing of it is, if one package can be unique, with a special recipient and a magical journey
00:34:19 <itidus21> if you add more packages, at what point do they cease to be unique, and on magical journeys
00:36:06 <itidus21> i imagine that talkshow hosts feel the same way about celebrities
00:40:55 <itidus21> or, help me my brain starts learning every time i attend lectures.. but they have hooked me up to youtube lecture streams as in a clockwork orange (i admit i dont want to learn)
00:56:17 <oerjan> ...thank you for making me regret pasting that link.
00:56:40 <itidus21> yeah, i react like this to everything
00:58:34 <itidus21> on the micro scale i am typing... on the macro scale i am dying
00:59:35 <itidus21> but, can i really treat dying as a verb i am doing?
01:05:18 <itidus21> oerjan: well.. if i bite into a cooke am i doing hysteresis?
01:09:24 <kmc> http://www.amazon.com/Noras-Hair-Salon-Shear-Disaster/product-reviews/B004FK5E8E
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01:21:51 <itidus21> http://www.sumotorrent.com/en/details/6113662/Noras Hair Salon 3 Shear Disaster 2011 DVDRip XviD-ph2.html
01:25:07 <kmc> watch this movie for us itidus21
01:28:36 <itidus21> in another universe i did... all that is needed now is to find this other me
01:29:48 <itidus21> and so began the quest to find another universe
01:43:14 <kmc> shachaf: in context "everything" meant "everything in the real world"
01:43:27 <kmc> we did discuss the arithmetic hierarchy later, though
01:43:51 <kmc> also, how goes?
01:51:26 <kmc> bagel area
01:52:30 * shachaf probably ought to figure out what to do next.
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02:07:21 <madbr> what would a 32 bit version of the 6502 look like
02:10:56 <kmc> dogs playing poker
02:11:36 <kmc> a 32-bit processor with only 3 registers would be amusing
02:12:11 <shachaf> That's basically x86, isn't it?
02:12:41 <Jafet> So that's why it's called 386
02:12:55 <madbr> 86 is kinda half way between a z80 and an ARM
02:15:16 <itidus21> i am a strong believer in path dependance in PC hardware..(was just reading about the word path dependance) and i have tried to rant about it in some places i think
02:16:25 <Jafet> fungot, what do you think about path dependence?
02:16:26 <fungot> Jafet: http://www.scheme.com/ tspl2d/ fnord the hopes of fixing the font problem, is what i'm saying is it's trivial to write
02:17:35 <shachaf> fungot should have a mode like sourbot_ where you can seed it with a word.
02:17:42 <fungot> shachaf: it's time to poof. it's like fnord
02:17:52 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
02:17:54 <fungot> itidus21: hyphens or not. listening ( reading) feels uncomfortable because i suppose i could
02:17:56 <fungot> itidus21: ( that's cl, though, if i let it loose in e.g. his fnord book " combinatory logic" is stupid? try using poc.
02:17:58 <fungot> itidus21: but stuff like fnord. and here, " i", a book on my head as something i can never remember which argument i'm allowed to do ' korsossa' a module system,
02:18:00 <Jafet> I think fungot wants to talk about fnord.
02:18:01 <fungot> Jafet: you're probably part of a type does not exist in your paste is an example line of code that is either working or very close
02:18:09 <shachaf> Jafet: Are you an op in here?
02:18:19 <Jafet> Uhh, am I, fungot?
02:18:20 <fungot> Jafet: and check with xev what keys are bound to a procedure in the procedure's scope. if you
02:18:29 <Jafet> I think he says no.
02:19:38 <itidus21> shachaf: i think for example PC's don't need to be based on circuit boards.
02:20:23 <itidus21> then again that may be because i don't realize what all that stuff on circuit boards does
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02:25:18 <itidus21> basically i think pc's are too upgrade focused.. i think that the machines could possibly be more efficient if you just ordered one efficient mass of electrical components which didn't care about space or extensability
02:27:56 <Phantom_Hoover> They don't *have* to be based on circuitboards, and indeed the bulk of the circuitry isn't actually on a board (it's in the chips), but boards are easy to manufacture and design.
02:29:26 <kmc> right, circuit boards are still used even on computers not meant to be upgradeable
02:29:33 <kmc> like the macbook air and "ultrabooks"
02:29:35 <kmc> also cell phones, etc
02:29:53 <itidus21> humm.. ok ill skip onto my next point then.
02:29:57 <kmc> there's a tremendous fixed cost to engineering a bunch of stuff together onto one chip
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02:30:03 <kmc> you only do it if you're selling a bajillion of something
02:30:16 <kmc> you try to buy standard parts and integrate them at board level
02:30:18 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, look up 'system on a chip' though, it's basically what you were talking about.
02:30:30 <kmc> Apple sells a bajillion iphones and cares very much about making them thin, light, poer-efficient, etc.
02:30:33 <kmc> so they design some custom chips
02:30:40 <shachaf> They should release a new dip called "system on a chip".
02:31:14 <itidus21> that would sell well among people who were on a good salary
02:31:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Even then you'll still need a board to solder USB ports etc. onto.
02:31:55 <kmc> itidus21: you can make an AVR microprocessor blink prime numbers to an LED with only the chip, a battery, a resistor, and the LED
02:31:58 <kmc> no circuit board
02:33:53 <itidus21> like if they sat down (as they always do before working) and decided to do a design which incorporated all the parts of a pc in one dependant design
02:34:05 <kmc> sometimes they have standing desks
02:35:25 <Sgeo> kmc, how often do you think Clojure people copy Haskell stuff without realizing that Clojure functions can do things that Haskell functions can't?
02:35:27 <itidus21> i imagine they could cut down on bus latency if they had enough design freedom
02:35:49 <shachaf> kmc: You'd only do that if you were really board.
02:37:34 <kmc> itidus21 are you an electrical engineer now
02:41:49 <kmc> itidus21: it is pretty common these days to combine multiple semiconductor dies into a single package that a circuit board designer would call "a chip"
02:42:05 <kmc> e.g. processor and ram stacked together into a single package with a single set of legs (well, more likely, balls) to talk to the outside world
02:43:02 <kmc> that is a level of integration between die-level and board-level
02:43:16 <kmc> AMD makes this 12-core CPU which is basically just two of their 6-core CPUs stuck together in one package which fits in one socket
02:43:28 <kmc> we had a box with 4 of those at my last job... it was pretty sick
02:43:47 <itidus21> the other day i heard someone argue that cpu is a bottleneck and gpu is not... that sparked this train of thought that they are mad
02:44:00 <kmc> it depends on what you're doing...
02:44:16 <kmc> for bitcoin mining the GPU is the only important component
02:44:28 <kmc> people build boxes with four $500 graphics cards, $20 CPU, $20 of RAM
02:44:46 <kmc> you don't even need the IO bandwidth to/from the graphics cards
02:44:46 <shachaf> $20 can get you a lot of RAM these days.
02:44:53 * shachaf 's laptop has $40 worth of RAM.
02:45:03 <kmc> people will cut pins off of the graphics cards so they fit in the slower PCIe x1 slots
02:45:17 <kmc> that's one extreme
02:48:39 <itidus21> i guess that the form of productivity they are doing with those graphics cards is that they are changing the world by accumulating money
02:49:41 <itidus21> i am not sure of the right wording for this
02:51:05 <kmc> i'm not sure that kind of bitcoin mining is profitable anymore
02:51:35 <shachaf> Are any other kinds of bitcoin mining profitable?
02:51:41 <kmc> also even if you accumulate a bunch of bitcoins, the exchange you use to turn them into real money will probably get hacked and you'll lose everything
02:51:55 <shachaf> Not if you turn them into real money first.
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02:53:40 <itidus21> i mean, on some level it is productive to transfer or create money
03:14:26 <itidus21> kmc: hmm.. could it be that some software is best written for gpus then?
03:14:44 <kmc> some algorithms execute much much faster on GPUs
03:15:00 <kmc> GPUs have what's called a SIMD architecture: single instruction, multiple data
03:15:03 <itidus21> my understanding is that most software runs exclusively on cpus
03:15:13 <kmc> meaning that you can operate on a lot of data at once, if you're doing the same thing to each piece of data
03:16:03 <itidus21> they could call them something fancy like gpu-apps
03:16:08 <kmc> in the case of bitcoin mining, you are applying the same hash function (double SHA256) to a lot of different inputs
03:16:30 <kmc> trying to find an input such that the output has a certain unusual property
03:16:59 <kmc> regardless of the viability of the currency, the core bitcoin idea of using hash chaining as a distributed timestamp service is really fucking clever
03:17:15 <kmc> one of the coolest new ideas i've heard in computer science in the past few years
03:18:07 <Sgeo> Isn't that what hashcash does?
03:18:27 <Sgeo> At least in the "searching for input where output has X propert" thing
03:18:57 <Sgeo> Ugh, GitHub for Windows has an ugly metro-ish UI
03:20:09 <itidus21> maybe some compilers should have a -gpu parameter
03:21:09 <kmc> Sgeo: hmm, it does use hashing for proof of work
03:21:19 <kmc> but it doesn't provide a distributed timestamp service or anything so fancy
03:21:47 <kmc> the bitcoin protocol lets you establish cryptographically that you had a specific piece of data at a specific time
03:21:54 <kmc> without anyone trusting a central entity
03:22:02 <kmc> which seems useful beyond cryptocurrency
03:22:18 <kmc> there's an application to naming (namecoin) and there would seem to be applications to intellectual property, etc
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03:46:56 <zzo38> For algorithms which execute much faster on GPUs, is that what Checkout esolang is for?
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03:57:32 <itidus21> APPLY LAMBDA foo APPLY itidus21
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04:00:34 <itidus21> eg, applying itidus21 to ESME results in a country practice
04:01:06 <itidus21> http://www.iwt.net.au/sideprojects/esme-groove.jpg
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05:17:21 <Sgeo> There exists a language called Smarty.
05:18:06 <Sgeo> It's a template language. How boring
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05:36:38 <ais523> hmm, compiler feature idea: if the user supplies code that's incorrectly indented, it just reindents the source as it compiles it
05:37:05 * ais523 is continuing on their crusade to annoy both Python fans and non-Python fans equally with programming language style
05:37:35 <ais523> I guess if the source is read-only, it'd refuse to compile it unless it were correctly indented already
05:38:13 <kmc> well Go has a One True Style which is enforced by some tool
05:38:18 <kmc> but i don't think it's part of the compiler per se
05:38:41 <ais523> the idea is that this lets me do other things too
05:38:52 <Jafet> If the user supplies bad code, delete it
05:38:59 <ais523> like, there'd be an "unreachable" keyword that you can use to mark code that should be unreachable
05:39:10 <ais523> and if it actually /is/ unreachable, then the compiler comments it out for you with special reversible comments
05:39:31 <ais523> (and comments it back in again if it turns out to be not unreachable, so your editor's syntax highlighter can warn you)
05:39:50 <oerjan> ais523: you might see zzo38's Checkout question a page or so above
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05:46:44 <Sgeo> Off-topic, but what's controversial about ais523's UTM?
05:47:25 <oerjan> it uses an infinite tape that's initiated with a complicated pattern
05:48:05 <Sgeo> So, the question is whether it's legal to have a pre-initialized tape?
05:48:08 <oerjan> and the question becomes how much of the universality is in the setup and how much is in the actual TM
05:48:16 <Jafet> Wolfram thinks so.
05:48:58 <oerjan> well his rule 110 automaton also used infinite setup, although iiuc that was at least periodic on each side
05:49:57 <oerjan> ("his" in the sense he maybe invented the automaton, not the proof of universality, which he only paid for.)
05:50:31 <oerjan> and then sued the prover when he tried to publish it independently
05:51:11 <oerjan> but i'm personally much more confident on TC-ness when input and output are finite.
05:51:12 <Jafet> I mean the 2,3 machine
05:51:28 <itidus21> mathematicians and their sillyness
05:51:33 <oerjan> Jafet: i'm saying they have the same issue, although the 2,3 machine more so
05:52:06 <itidus21> oerjan: clearly he is so bored in his work that he has time to go around suing people
05:52:31 <oerjan> itidus21: ... you know nothing about wolfram, i take.
05:52:50 <oerjan> he has an ego about 10 sizes bigger than the solar system.
05:53:25 <oerjan> he sued so that it would be first published in his own book, which is full of hype.
05:53:58 <oerjan> "a new kind of science"
05:54:17 <Jafet> A kind of nuisance
05:54:55 <itidus21> "Wolfram published an article on particle physics[6] but claimed to be bored and left Eton prematurely in 1976"
05:55:01 <itidus21> ok so he really does get bored....
05:55:39 <oerjan> Jafet: sorry but you aren't original :P http://www.amazon.com/review/R31DLUYNKIUR0C
05:56:44 <oerjan> 11 of 16 people found the following review helpful. but just 1 star.
05:57:59 <itidus21> this one is also interesting http://www.amazon.com/review/B004FK5E8E
05:58:20 <Jafet> Perhaps it is a universal principle that everyone of sufficient complexity tends to make fun of Wolfram.
05:58:45 <oerjan> oh wait it's the reviewer that gives the star.
05:59:16 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that Isaac Newton was also a jackass
05:59:47 <Sgeo> (Which doesn't make Wolfram comparable to Newton except in that regard)
06:03:34 <ais523> <Jafet> Wolfram thinks so. ← I used to think this, but I changed my mind; the mathematicians at Wolfram Science who actually /read/ the proof think so
06:03:44 <ais523> as far as I can tell, Wolfram actually doesn't know and isn't interested
06:04:21 <oerjan> http://shell.cas.usf.edu/~wclark/ANKOS_humor.html
06:05:14 <Jafet> Eh? I thought he did all the actual math at WR.
06:05:32 <ais523> whatever would make you think that?
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06:06:08 <ais523> fwiw, what did you think all the other people at Wolfram Science (or is it Wolfram Research?) actually /do/?
06:08:07 <Jafet> They run around picking up after his brilliant discoveries
06:08:48 <drocta> so I made https://github.com/drocta/TILDE-ATH
06:08:51 <ais523> Sgeo: anyway, the main controversy is whether the initialization is /too/ complex to be considered TC
06:09:37 <ais523> Sgeo: a system has two parts, an inference rule and an initial condition, right?
06:09:45 <ais523> the 2,3 machine has a very very simple inference rule
06:10:05 <ais523> but in order to get it to emulate an arbitrary Turing machine, you need a very very complex initial condition
06:10:20 <ais523> and the debate's about whether initial conditions that complex should be "allowed"
06:10:42 <ais523> IMO, it's obvious that that one should be from an engineering point of view, but mathematicians need precise definitions and they didn't formulate one in advance that applies to this
06:10:55 <kmc> well it's still a computable initial condition, presumably
06:11:09 <kmc> and so you still get an initial condition even for a machine which ends up not halting
06:11:14 <kmc> which is kind of a significant point
06:11:27 <ais523> kmc: the problem is it's infinitely long
06:11:39 <ais523> and there are some obvious ways of cheating if you're allowed an infinitely long infinite condition
06:11:49 <ais523> like "simulate the program, keep printing 0s while you're simulating and 1 if it happens to halt"
06:12:05 <ais523> that's entirely computable, in that you can compute the first n bits of the initial condition no problem, likewise the nth
06:12:18 <ais523> and yet it encodes haltingness into the initial condition rather than the actual program
06:12:32 <ais523> messing with infinities tends to lead to problems in maths
06:12:42 <ais523> so the approach I'm trying to go down is to generate a finite description of the infinite condition
06:12:49 <ais523> together with an expansion program that's obviously sub-TC
06:13:00 <ais523> the last few years have been trying to define "obviously sub-TC" :)
06:13:17 <Jafet> Ideally the condition should be independent of the program.
06:13:28 <zzo38> If you need to mess with infinites then you need to do it properly
06:13:52 <ais523> or at least, I came up with a definition, http://esolangs.org/wiki/1cnis - but have not been able to prove that that definition fits the initial condition I actually came up with…
06:13:58 <Sgeo> So, the MtG UTM manages to encode the infinitely long initial condition somehow?
06:14:08 <oerjan> drocta: what is TILDE-ATH?
06:14:13 <ais523> Sgeo: it doesn't, it just initialises it with blue
06:14:19 <ais523> I contacted the author about it to explain
06:14:19 <Sgeo> And wouldn't MtG's ability to encode the initial condition + ... oh, uh
06:14:27 <Jafet> The Magic machine is a straight-up turing machine
06:14:31 <Jafet> With a blank tape (spooler)
06:14:58 <Sgeo> ~ATH is a fictional programming language, in Homestuck (in Homestuck it's real)
06:15:04 <kmc> spooler alert
06:15:26 <drocta> based on loops that continue so long as an object is "alive"
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06:15:48 <Sgeo> I thought it was more triggering on when something's not "alive"
06:15:59 <ais523> by the way, #esoteric: #acehack told me about the Magic 2,3 machine before #esoteric did
06:16:02 <ais523> you must be slipping ;)
06:16:21 <drocta> ~ATH(VARNAME){loop this while alive}EXECUTE(executethisondeath);
06:16:37 <ais523> btw, there is actually a mistake in ANKOS that is Wolfram making the same mistake as the Magic machine person made
06:16:40 <ais523> I told him about it over the phone
06:16:56 <oklopol> ais523: if this was today, then i think #esoteric in fact was a bit earlier
06:16:58 <ais523> luckily, I'd managed to fix it in my head in a few seconds, so the theorem is correct, just not the proof
06:17:02 <ais523> oklopol: it was yesterady
06:17:34 <Sgeo> And somehow or other there is a valid(?) program with two colors and weird nesting
06:17:38 <zzo38> I had an idea of Magic: the Gathering cards of programming language, once; now, this Magic 2,3 machine can even work without requiring any choices. However, what if you want to make input/output?
06:17:40 <oklopol> my best guess is 4 years ago but possibly also yesterday
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06:17:51 <oklopol> also i was eating pizza and then i woke up
06:17:57 <drocta> yeah, common idea is that the colors were different threads.
06:18:06 <ais523> `addquote <oklopol> my best guess is 4 years ago but possibly also yesterday
06:18:10 <zzo38> Actually Magic 2,3 machine still require cards to played in a certain way to start, and then it works without any choices.
06:18:15 <HackEgo> 861) <oklopol> my best guess is 4 years ago but possibly also yesterday
06:18:21 <ais523> it still has choices of whether to play "may" actions or not
06:18:37 <ais523> but moving away from that probably means you can't phase the Teysas…
06:18:47 <oklopol> i thought you meant the 2,3 challenge :D
06:19:02 <Sgeo> ais523, but the same person proved it with another machine, right?
06:19:14 <ais523> Sgeo: no, but he said he was working on a 2,18
06:19:17 <ais523> which I'll be interested in
06:19:25 <zzo38> I wonder if, something can be made using that, including both input and output?
06:19:30 <Sgeo> But as it stands, MtG is NOT proven TC?
06:19:45 <ais523> (I assume the 2,18 in question is uncontroversial: I haven't seen it, but that seems about the right number of colors for an uncontroversially TC 2-state Turing machine)
06:19:54 <ais523> but yes, the proof as it stands is flawed
06:20:03 <Sgeo> Someone should post that to Reddit
06:22:00 <oklopol> so, am i to understand that someone implemented the 2,3 machine in mtg?
06:22:08 <Sgeo> As in, the fact that the current proof is flawed
06:22:13 <Sgeo> Not the 2,18 version
06:22:20 <oklopol> and in what sense was it implemented?
06:22:22 <ais523> http://www.toothycat.net/~hologram/Turing/HowItWorks.html
06:22:38 <ais523> oklopol: in the sense that if four players have specially constructed decks and are cooperating with each other
06:22:47 <pikhq> ais523: As specified the assumption is the players always take choices offered to them.
06:22:55 <ais523> then they can set up a gamestate with an infinite series of triggered actions
06:23:05 <ais523> and if they always take optional choices, it emulates the 2,3 machines
06:23:06 <oklopol> okay now it works dunno what happened
06:23:21 <pikhq> It's an edge case.
06:23:27 <pikhq> Assumping the machine counts.
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06:24:02 <ais523> clearly we just need to partition Mark Rosewater to make a card that makes all optional abilities compulsory ;)
06:24:26 <zzo38> ais523: Actually I had a similar idea of exactly the same effect, even without reading about the Magic 2,3 machine.
06:24:33 <pikhq> ais523: Surely this'd be *easy*.
06:24:39 <pikhq> I mean, he is a mathematician.
06:25:02 <ais523> zzo38: somehow I'm not surprised :)
06:26:04 <oklopol> how many cards does it need?
06:26:39 <ais523> although it needs six copies of the same legendary in play at once, which is slightly nontrivial but not impossible to arrange
06:27:01 <ais523> (you can steal them from other players or copy them, and use a separate card to make having multiple identically-named legendaries in play at once legal)
06:27:02 <zzo38> Is that why the card was made legendary?
06:27:06 <pikhq> If you make the assumption all players are trying to set it up, it's not that much work.
06:27:26 <oklopol> we once made this board game which was awesome, you put pieces on the board and a chain reaction was triggered, so you could get multiple points on one turn.
06:27:41 <oklopol> and our record was like 20 or something
06:27:57 <oklopol> then i implemented it on the computer and it inflooped after 5 turns and got infinity points.
06:28:23 <zzo38> In a Limited game, if you manage to draft (or open, or collect, etc) six same card then you are not limited by the rule 4 of same card; you can use 6. Otherwise you have to use only however many you have
06:28:49 <ais523> zzo38: it can't be done in limited because it uses cards from more than one block
06:29:08 <zzo38> ais523: I have once played in a Limited game that involved two blocks.
06:29:24 <zzo38> oklopol: What if you make up the rule, that you are disqualified if the game doesn't end?
06:30:33 <zzo38> (Usually a Limited game is only one block, but occasionally it is two blocks, or possibly even three or more. Constructed games are usually always two blocks, but may be unlimited to the number of blocks, or some other rule.)
06:30:39 <oklopol> it's nondeterministic. but i guess you could require that there are no infinite plays or you lose.
06:31:00 <Jafet> Disqualified if you cannot prove that your move ends
06:31:59 <oerjan> > 2*pi / 0.01720209895
06:32:14 <Sgeo> Is the game TC? If so, the no infinite plays thing might be difficult </understatement>
06:32:29 <oklopol> i wonder when wolfram's 1000 page book called "krhm actually it's MY 2,3 machine not alex's" comes out
06:32:41 <zzo38> oerjan: What are you calculating?
06:32:56 <Jafet> > "A " ++ fix ("new kind of " ++)
06:32:58 <lambdabot> "A new kind of new kind of new kind of new kind of new kind of new kind of ...
06:33:13 <oerjan> zzo38: http://www.nature.com/news/the-astronomical-unit-gets-fixed-1.11416 had this number
06:33:14 <oklopol> my supervisor told me he was once invited to be invited speaker in one of wolfram's seminars
06:33:34 <zzo38> Is the astronomical unit broken?
06:33:49 <oerjan> it's something like the average number of radians earth traces out per day
06:33:59 <oklopol> Sgeo: can't be tc due to memory being limited to the number of pieces on board.
06:34:08 <oerjan> zzo38: well it was complicated to calculate
06:34:25 <Jafet> There was a paper that contrived a TC game with finite pieces
06:34:30 <zzo38> I thought astronomical units is the distance from here to the sun.
06:35:29 <oerjan> zzo38: yes, but earth's orbit is elliptical so you need to choose one of the distances
06:35:37 <zzo38> I think JPL ephemerides are not in astronomical units anyways so at least those ones are unaffected but are some ephemerides in astronomical units?
06:36:02 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, I thought you have to choose the average? (Do you have to know what kind of average?)
06:37:40 <oerjan> zzo38: well it's like with the meter, it was originally defined as 1/10000000'th of the meridian from the pole to equator through paris - but that's awkward to measure all the time so they redefined it, although in that case they even calculated it wrong the first time
06:38:29 <zzo38> O yes I heard of that; they did it wrong the first time even by their definition. Better definitions anyways would be by something such as speed of light, I think it is now
06:40:32 <oerjan> zzo38: oh there were other problems fixed by the recent fixing of au to meters
06:41:02 <oerjan> the old definition didn't mesh with relativity and depended on the changing mass of the sun
06:41:36 <zzo38> Ephemerides need a unit of distance and of time. I think they use kilometres per day, although you could use lightseconds per second, or metres per second, or whatever (I happen to like using the speed of light as the ephemeris units, although this may cause problems in floating point precision I don't know for sure)
06:41:49 <kmc> yeah the meter now is defined in terms of the oscillation period of a cesium atom
06:41:55 <zzo38> oerjan: O, so they fix that too now, is good
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06:43:18 <kmc> you could say it's also defined in terms of the speed of light, but the speed of light is an arbitrary unit conversion and not a fundamental physical constant
06:43:38 <oerjan> kmc: i'm not sure that it's the atom itself which oscillates, just one of its kinds of emitted radiation
06:43:41 <oklopol> a much better definition would be "the distance from the mass center of earth to the mass center of the sun, in the reference frame of the mass center of the definition user's right eye"
06:44:27 <oerjan> oklopol: sounds usable.
06:44:47 <kmc> oerjan: you're right
06:46:19 <zzo38> Can you say it is defined in terms of the speed of light if you then define seconds in terms of the cesium atom? Therefore something must relate the distance and time, so you can have the units.
06:47:21 <zzo38> I don't like humanistic units; you must define them in terms of physics instead, is much better.
06:47:39 <itidus21> applying myself as a function to the topic... i almost forgot what i was about to say
06:47:41 <zzo38> That way you always know what they are even if you removed your right eye or whatever
06:47:53 <kmc> sure, i'm just saying that "speed of light" is like "number of inches in a meter"
06:48:57 <itidus21> i wonder if sci fi has been written wherein many aspects of the universe are constant, like a chessboard or a video game
06:48:58 <zzo38> kmc: No I don't think so! The speed of light is an actual speed, not a unitless number. Isn't it?
06:49:41 <kmc> zzo38: in traditional unit systems it is so, but in studying relativity it is convenient to use a unitless 1 as the speed of light
06:49:47 <kmc> and you can do that
06:49:59 <zzo38> kmc: Well, yes; I agree with that. That isn't what I meant, though.
06:50:01 <oklopol> zzo38: sorry, i meant to say "rightmost eye"
06:50:08 <Sgeo> How can speed be unitless?
06:50:12 <oklopol> this fixes the issue you mentioned.
06:50:13 <itidus21> like in a video game, the size of a planet tends to remain constant indefinitely.. for as long as there are people to play the game
06:50:19 <kmc> Sgeo: because distance and time are actually the same kind of thing
06:50:28 <zzo38> I meant that the speed of the light is the same speed no matter what number you use to represent it.
06:50:54 <itidus21> i imagine this is true of things like dwarf fortress, minecraft, terraria, chess, secondlife, etc
06:50:56 <kmc> it's as if all along we had one unit for north-south distance, and a different unit for east-west distance, and then one day someone figured out that you can relate these
06:51:41 <zzo38> I do agree it is useful to use a unitless 1 since space and time just different dimensions (although the sign is opposite)
06:51:46 <Sgeo> itidus21, Second Life's size isn't constant
06:51:54 <Sgeo> Space keeps getting added to it
06:52:08 <Jafet> They need room for all the penises
06:52:10 <Sgeo> Although I guess "amount of possible space" might be constant
06:52:12 <itidus21> Sgeo: i suppose that my statement doesn't stand.
06:52:29 <itidus21> .. i didnt quite get at the essence of the question
06:52:39 * Sgeo is unsure if they use ints or uints or something to specify regions
06:52:59 <Sgeo> If they do, then yeah, Second Life has a finite size, but it's MUCH larger than currently accessible size
06:53:14 <oklopol> also you can create and lose blocks in minecraft and minesweeper
06:53:58 <oklopol> you should always know what you mean
06:54:01 <itidus21> in minecraft, a block is a perfect unit
06:54:02 <zzo38> And then invent "mine card" game.
06:54:25 <Sgeo> There exist half-blocks.
06:54:41 <Sgeo> Although I don't know if those conceptually count as blocks to the engine
06:54:48 <itidus21> hmm and i suppose tat the actual objects are not always aligned to the blocks exactly
06:54:59 <itidus21> like you can stand on several blocks at once
06:55:00 <oklopol> if you use half-blocks usually people destroy your house
06:55:31 <oklopol> also they conceptually count as blocks to the engine, you can't place stuff on them for instance
06:55:43 <oklopol> or at least you can't place a half-block and put a full block on top.
06:57:56 <oklopol> although it seems that notch hasn't quite grasped that you can reuse parts of your code so almost all items have some bugs and features unique to them.
06:58:01 <itidus21> but, as we see in games like rogue, the block as a ruler becomes a problem on non axis aligned lines
06:58:04 <oklopol> so it's hard to state anything definitive.
06:59:00 <itidus21> ok lets ignore my last statement
06:59:34 <zzo38> Would using the speed of light as ephemeris units (you still need distance and time units; I mean the speed of light is 1 in these units) make calculation of apparent positions simpler in some ways?
06:59:49 <Sgeo> itidus21, it's only problematic in visual terms
07:00:01 <Sgeo> In the world of the game itself, there is no problem
07:00:07 <shachaf> kmc: Did you know that foreign import wrapper allocates a new executable+writable page and copies some machine code into it at runtime?
07:00:25 <oklopol> apparently it's special cased that you can put two half-blocks of the same kind on top of each other
07:00:26 <itidus21> Sgeo: i guess in minecraft you can use blocks as rulers in any direction... but in a game like chess, not so easy
07:00:33 <oklopol> you can't mix two of different kinds though
07:01:07 <zzo38> oklopol: I think once I have made a game that has a similar rule
07:01:34 <zzo38> Where if you push two half blocks of the same kind together you get a full block of that kind; if they are different then they block each other
07:02:56 <oklopol> you don't get a full block in minecraft, you get something that looks like a full block but is much harder to break
07:04:23 <kmc> shachaf: i think i did know that, yes
07:04:26 <kmc> it doesn't work on iPhone
07:04:37 <kmc> are they careful to remap the page read-only after they're done writing to it?
07:06:05 <zzo38> Can you make self-modifying codes to improve the speed and possible save memory?
07:10:11 <itidus21> yes but i don't want them to fall into the wrong hands
07:10:40 <zzo38> Don't want what to fall into the wrong hands?
07:11:20 <shachaf> kmc: Do you think there are any serious security implications?
07:11:42 <shachaf> I mean, it's presumably called from C, but the page is randomized and the code in it is GHC-generated.
07:12:58 <kmc> well, if you have a memory corruption bug somewhere else, the existence of a writeable executable page can help you exploit that bug
07:13:26 <zzo38> As far as I know LLVM has no commands for self-modifying codes and it is something I wanted it to have, for example one thing you could have is if some RAM variable is actually the operand to another instructions, and another possibility is something like INTERCAL's ABSTAIN and REINSTATE commands
07:13:57 <kmc> you might have some control over what GHC writes there, or you might be able to write there yourself
07:14:40 <kmc> although if you can write to anywhere you like in the address space, you can doubtless do many other things
07:15:12 <kmc> GHC code has many indirect jumps
07:15:45 <kmc> it should be possible to do something like ROP where you build fake thunks or something
07:16:06 <shachaf> That could make for a fun CTF thing!
07:16:24 <kmc> a CTF that only 3 people would complete or care about ;)
07:17:03 <kmc> well if instead of the GHC RTS you were working with a toy lazy language
07:17:08 <kmc> then i could see it as one of the later levels in io
07:17:18 <shachaf> I don't know. Half the fun of a CTF is learning about new things that work differently from the things you know.
07:17:31 <zzo38> What does CTF mean?
07:17:31 <kmc> shachaf: do you know about Supervisor Mode Execution Protection?
07:17:43 <itidus21> zzo38: i dont want self modifying codes which improve speed and save memory to fall into the wrong hands
07:18:33 <shachaf> kmc: I think I've heard of it.
07:18:36 <kmc> new in Ivy Bridge chips, when enabled an attempt to execute in kernel mode a page accessible by user code will fault
07:18:44 <shachaf> A "user/kernel bit" such that the kernel can't execute code in user pages?
07:18:59 <itidus21> i dont have any such codes.. but i think i could at least think about what it means
07:19:08 <kmc> yeah, it is just a single control register bit
07:19:32 <kmc> which interprets the existing "user" bit on pages this way
07:19:37 <kmc> in addition to its old meaning
07:19:57 <kmc> the old meaning is that pages without the user bit set can't be accessed by user-mode code
07:20:28 <kmc> now the pages *with* the user bit set can't be executed by kernel mode code
07:20:37 <itidus21> zzo38: when i applied my brain to the question, the answer seems to be to have conditionals with feedback..
07:20:58 <itidus21> so that the condition which is selected the most often is optimized
07:21:04 <shachaf> All the effort and CPU time "wasted" on security is kind of annoying.
07:21:07 <kmc> (of course, if the kernel really wanted to execute such a page, it could disable the feature or unset the user bit, but the idea is to prevent an attacker from tricking the kernel into executing such a page)
07:21:22 <itidus21> i am not sure how that might go exactly
07:21:37 <zzo38> itidus21: Yes you could do that too; some CPU instruction set might include commands for branch prediction, is one way, but that is other things too.
07:21:57 <kmc> so now you can't just put kernel mode shellcode in your exploit program and get the kernel to call it
07:21:59 <itidus21> i guess thats called branch prediction
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07:22:38 <kmc> which means some of the techniques from userspace NX exploitation will be useful
07:22:52 <kmc> ROP, JIT spraying, etc.
07:23:38 <kmc> shachaf: it may be wasted effort but I prefer to live in a world where people dream up things like ROP and JIT spraying, it's just more interesting
07:24:22 <kmc> it's like esoteric programming except that it's useful, e.g. for getting rich or sabotaging the iranian nuclear program
07:24:23 <zzo38> But my idea was rather to make like INTERCAL's ABSTAIN but to directly modify the machine code instructions
07:25:32 <kmc> in fact the idea behind ROP is basically that every compiled executable gives rise to an esolang, whose primitive instructions are every sequence of code bytes ending in an (intended or unintended) return instruction
07:25:40 <zzo38> What else I like other than self-modifying codes, is also self-modifying microcodes!
07:25:52 <itidus21> zzo38: to improve i think that .. ok ok .. uhm uhm..
07:26:11 <itidus21> perhaps it could plan for changing environment...
07:26:21 <shachaf> kmc: It's really one big class of very-similar esolangs.
07:26:46 <shachaf> I think for sufficiently-large executables they tend to be TC, too.
07:27:22 <kmc> i think the bigger issue is not computational completeness but completeness in terms of the system calls you need for successful exploitation
07:27:43 <kmc> but you don't need very much there, either
07:28:39 <itidus21> zzo38: well i think self modification implies somehow that something in the program's context is changing... either the platform, or the input
07:28:56 <Jafet> Most of the wasted effort is on bad security
07:29:07 <Jafet> I don't have a problem with wasting effort on good security
07:29:34 <zzo38> I think they used something similar to dump the Nintendo DS BIOS, by finding some data used as code which pushes some things to the stack and can be made to copy the BIOS codes; normally if the instruction pointer is not in the BIOS area it will never read the BIOS so they changed it
07:29:44 <shachaf> Jafet: Do you consider the things discussed here good or bad security?
07:30:24 <zzo38> itidus21: What do you mean, such as, an example?
07:30:24 <Jafet> I don't know, but I don't have a problem with them!
07:31:33 <itidus21> zzo38: i think that on an unchanging platform, with unchanging input, all optimization can be done at compile time
07:32:07 <zzo38> Yes in that case probably you can just make the answer directly
07:32:42 <itidus21> but if there is input.. there can be different versions of the program adapted to different inputs
07:33:51 <zzo38> Yes, and you may not know at compile time; is a reason to do self-modifications. I have thought of such things for making some emulator which you can specify the hardware in input file, can modify itself to skip whatever is not used
07:34:04 <kmc> gotta sleep, ttyl all
07:34:30 <itidus21> like, as an example, if you know how long a file is you don't really need to check for end of file
07:35:16 <itidus21> and if you know how long a string is, you can read all symbols as data
07:35:44 <zzo38> Yes; but would it be more efficient maybe not necessarily, depending what you are doing. Also possible, if you know the multiple of length, unroll the loops
07:40:07 <itidus21> the trouble to me with self modifying code is the question of when this self modification happens
07:40:29 <itidus21> it makes sense to keep it modifying nonstop
07:41:05 <itidus21> but then maybe its not really self modifying
07:46:35 <itidus21> i once thought of a storyline or video game idea where the source code is self modifiable, and so, whoever has access to the source has power
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09:55:53 <olsner> what's a good way to combine shell and python in one source file?
09:56:33 <shachaf> Or by "good" do you mean "esoteric"?
09:57:02 <olsner> I was looking for a good way actually, but wouldn't object if it ended up esoteric either
10:03:47 <olsner> oh, the python code can't access stdin if you do it like that... python /dev/fd/3 3<<EOF seems to work
10:06:08 <shachaf> Alternatively you can embed the sh in the py.
10:06:43 <olsner> yes, most of it is python, so that might be better
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10:50:56 <Sgeo> What the flying flipping fuck, I am going to hurt the author of clojure.algo.monads
10:51:38 <Sgeo> His macro that provides an equivalent to "do"? It puts the last item in an implicit return
10:54:48 <Sgeo> user=> (domonad sequence-m [] '(1 2 3))
10:54:55 <Sgeo> I'm sorry, but that is absolutely fucked up
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11:05:20 <olsner> Sgeo: what does that even mean?
11:10:10 <Sgeo> It means that domonad does not in fact emulate do
11:10:26 <Sgeo> But a version of do that is only useful in subsets of all situations that do is useful in.
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11:24:42 <FreeFull> Sgeo: What would domonad even be good for
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12:07:49 <Sgeo> domonad is still usable in those situations, it's just uglier
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12:09:37 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I was ranting about a Clojure library earlier
12:15:49 <Sgeo> I'm beginning to think Clojure developers like the idea of various functional idioms, but don't actually understand them.
12:44:19 <Sgeo> Yes. Tops are usually not worn on laps.
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15:58:43 <oerjan> 11:10:10: <Sgeo> It means that domonad does not in fact emulate do
15:58:43 <oerjan> 11:10:26: <Sgeo> But a version of do that is only useful in subsets of all situations that do is useful in.
15:59:10 <oerjan> you can easily convert do ...; whatever into do ...; x <- whatever; return x
16:00:08 <oerjan> in fact an implicit return is essentially what you get for monad comprehensions
16:08:00 <kmc> olsner, shachaf: you can also pass a whole python program to python -c
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16:19:04 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Ook!&diff=33796&oldid=32048
16:22:19 <oerjan> WHY AM I OUT OF POPCORN
16:22:35 <oerjan> (probably because i never buy it)
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17:33:33 <HackEgo> carado: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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19:05:20 <fizzie> Thoughts from the sauna: I've been thinking (and it's been categorized like that) that the Finnish 'd' (which occurs natively only in consonant gradation) is just the voiced version of 't', i.e. voiced dental plosive, but now that I thought of it, the place of articulation is more like alveolar, and according to some Wikipediaing that's actually a real thing.
19:05:25 <fizzie> "/d/ is the equivalent of /t/ under weakening consonant gradation, and thus occurs only medially, in the infinitives of the verbs nähdä (to see) and tehdä (to do), or in non-native words; it is actually more of an alveolar tap rather than a true voiced plosive, and the dialectal realization varies widely; see main article."
19:05:42 <fizzie> (Main article is a bit long to quote unless you happen to be surprisingly interested in Finnish phonology.)
19:06:54 <fizzie> Also I can't really distinguish too well between t̪/t or d̪/d when I manage to make the non-"natural" ones.
19:10:55 <fizzie> Speaking of which, why is the "Received Pronunciation" called that? Who/what is it received from? God? Aliens? Xenu?
19:10:58 <fizzie> (Nth in our popular series of "questions better suited for Wikipedia".)
19:12:22 <lambdabot> *** "received" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
19:12:23 <lambdabot> adj 1: conforming to the established language usage of educated
19:12:24 <lambdabot> native speakers; "standard English" (American); "received
19:12:26 <lambdabot> standard English is sometimes called the King's English"
19:12:38 <lambdabot> (British) [syn: {standard}, {received}] [ant:
19:12:38 <lambdabot> 2: widely accepted as true or worthy; "a received moral idea";
19:12:38 <lambdabot> "Received political wisdom says not; surveys show otherwise"-
19:15:23 <fizzie> That pretty much just makes me wonder why "received (adj)" means that.
19:18:02 <Sgeo> It's official. No one in the Clojure world actually has a clue about Maybe.
19:18:13 <Sgeo> I just re-read the definition that I thought I liked
19:18:26 <fizzie> Apparently just from the "6. (8) receive -- (accept as true or valid; "He received Christ")" kind of sense of receive (verb).
19:18:46 <Sgeo> It's as if Nothing were defined as "Just Nothingval"
19:21:42 <Sgeo> I guess it doesn't help that this person doesn't know Haskell. But I should educate him
19:22:06 <Sgeo> I should try to work out whether this thing is even a monad
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19:24:21 <shachaf> Sgeo: Why are you complaining about Clojure in #haskell?
19:24:27 <shachaf> Because no one responded to your bait in here?
19:24:44 <atriq> Is clojure the java-lisp thing
19:24:44 <lambdabot> atriq: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:24:48 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen said 20h 17m 23s ago: so your church incrementation excerpt translates to λxyzt.x z (y z t), right?
19:25:29 <atriq> @tell Arc_Koen That looks like Church addition... hmm
19:25:56 <atriq> @tell Arc_Koen Oh, that's because it is
19:29:31 <atriq> Can I submit Fueue to the 2006 essies?
19:30:12 <atriq> Under the category Turing-Equivalent language
19:30:37 <atriq> That's the 2004 contest
19:32:08 <atriq> Can I submit it to that?
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20:03:00 * Sgeo files a bug report http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/ALGOM-7
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20:16:25 <fizzie> You are the Monad Police.
20:19:15 <Sgeo> It's strongly but dynamically typed
20:22:55 <Sgeo> My demonstration doesn't actually count as a demonstration of breaking the monad laws
20:23:59 <copumpkin> you'll note that no actual type theorists ever talk about "strong" typing
20:24:21 <copumpkin> it's mostly mainstream programmers trying to make up bullshit distinctions
20:28:37 * pikhq invents the keyboard where you need to apply 50 lbs-force to press a key
20:28:40 <pikhq> Tada, strong typing.
20:29:23 * atriq invents the keyboard that has motorized wheels which move whenever you press a key
20:29:29 <atriq> Tada, dynamic typing
20:29:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Nonono, the keybindings rearrange themselves whenever you press a key.
20:30:26 <Sgeo> If everyone had that OLED keyboard, that might be useful for some games
20:30:38 <Sgeo> Put everyone on a level playing field when it comes to typing speed
20:30:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Duck typing is when the keyboard's at the bottom of a pond and you have to dive every time you press a key.
20:30:50 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> How much force does it actually take to press a key?
20:30:55 <elliott> scissor switches take a lot
20:32:05 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Apparently they're normally cited in grams-force.
20:32:10 <pikhq> Stupidest unit ever.
20:32:53 <Phantom_Hoover> our keyboard standardisation will break down as soon as we colonise mars!
20:33:29 <atriq> Isn't a gram-force a ten-thousandth of a newton?
20:34:10 <atriq> I'm not great at these unitmobobs
20:34:19 <pikhq> atriq: No, a gram-force is the force of gravity on an object weighing one gram.
20:34:42 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, does that account for regional gravitational differences?
20:35:10 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No, it's based on a hypothetical ideal earth gravity...
20:36:03 <pikhq> Seems 1 gram-force is 9.807 mN.
20:36:48 <pikhq> And 1 kg-force is 9.807 N.
20:37:06 <pikhq> Earth is insufficiently metric.
20:43:05 <Phantom_Hoover> remind me, is surface gravity higher at the poles or equator
20:44:54 <carado> since they are closer to the center of the earth than the equator
20:46:07 <kmc> monad police arrest this man / he talks in maths / he buzzes like a fridge
20:46:27 <kmc> did anyone here ever play Typing of the Dead?
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21:42:15 <Gregor> Do they pump hair gel into the water supply in San Francisco?
21:42:21 <Gregor> All evidence suggests that they do.
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21:55:48 <Sgeo> I am actually scared of failing Intro to Drawing
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21:56:10 <Sgeo> My hand-eye coordination can best be described as "non-existent"
21:56:13 <Sgeo> Each class is painful
21:56:56 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:57:01 <lambdabot> atriq said 2h 31m 31s ago: That looks like Church addition... hmm
21:57:01 <lambdabot> atriq said 2h 31m 4s ago: Oh, that's because it is
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21:57:53 <Arc_Koen> it was very fun, yet not as good as it was supposed to be
21:59:10 <Sgeo> I think the fact that (partial +) doesn't work is annoying
22:02:14 <kmc> http://www.seafloorexplorer.org/ is kind of fun
22:06:58 <Sgeo> Oh, apparently the behavior in partial is changing in 1.5 :)
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22:15:34 <Arc_Koen> so, a machine consisting of two "registers" (actually variables A and B holding an unbounded non-negative integer), and a finite list of instructions taken from the set {"A++", "B++", "A--", "B--", "A<-0", "B<-0", "A<-B", "B<-A", "if A=0 goto x", "if B=0 goto x", "if A=B goto x", "halt"}
22:15:42 <Arc_Koen> the set of all those machines have been proven to be turing-complete?
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22:31:33 <Sgeo> <casion> thanks to sgeo, I've learned more about haskell in here than in #haskell ;)
22:31:42 <Sgeo> <casion> half-joking :)
22:33:55 <elliott> so in #haskell you talk about clojure stuff and in #clojure you talk about haskell stuff
22:35:52 <kmc> pikhq: we should adjust the mass of the earth until it's exactly 10
22:36:31 <pikhq> Seems reasonable, and I see nothing wrong with the idea.
22:38:16 <kmc> sadly the moon is only about 62% of the mass we'll need
22:42:10 <pikhq> kmc: What about Venus?
22:42:37 <pikhq> Mercury works better.
22:42:44 <kmc> this reminds me of a great paper on arXiv (which i can't find :/) which was an engineering feasibility study of some alternatives for surviving the explosion of the sun in a few billion years
22:42:54 <kmc> (well not exactly "explosion" but you know what i mean)
22:43:05 <kmc> specifically, how Earth could survive such an event
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22:44:41 <Sgeo> I assume installing the JVM on HackEgo would be a royal pain?
22:47:32 <Sgeo> `cat bin/frink
22:47:35 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec /hackenv/lib/frink -e "$@" \
22:47:42 <Sgeo> `cat /hackenv/lib/frink
22:47:44 <oerjan> goddamn housemates are both having long phone conversations after midnight.
22:48:10 <Sgeo> Hmm, for some reason, I thought Frink was a Java thing
22:49:08 <Sgeo> `paste cat /hackenv/lib/frink
22:49:11 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1521 \ cat: cat /hackenv/lib/frink: No such file or directory
22:49:27 <oerjan> <fizzie> Speaking of which, why is the "Received Pronunciation" called that? Who/what is it received from? God? Aliens? Xenu?
22:49:36 <Sgeo> `paste /hackenv/lib/frink
22:49:39 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25872
22:53:12 <oerjan> "The word received conveys its original meaning of accepted or approved – as in "received wisdom"."
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22:57:33 <kmc> ah the joy of datasheets http://i.imgur.com/SaeT1.png
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22:59:40 <Sgeo> How does frink operate?
22:59:50 <HackEgo> Usage: java [-options] class [args...] \. (to execute a class) \ or java [-options] -jar jarfile [args...] \. (to execute a jar file) \ where options include: \ -d32. use a 32-bit data model if available \ -d64. use a 64-bit data model if available \ -server. to select the "server" VM \...The default VM is server. \ \. -cp <class search path of
23:00:37 <Sgeo> `fetch http://repo1.maven.org/maven2/org/clojure/clojure/1.4.0/clojure-1.4.0.zip
23:00:40 <HackEgo> 2012-09-15 23:00:40 URL:http://repo1.maven.org/maven2/org/clojure/clojure/1.4.0/clojure-1.4.0.zip [4553941/4553941] -> "clojure-1.4.0.zip" [1]
23:00:50 <Sgeo> `unzip clojure-1.4.0.zip
23:00:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unzip: not found
23:00:57 <Sgeo> `gunzip clojure-1.4.0.zip
23:01:01 <HackEgo> gzip: clojure-1.4.0.zip: unknown suffix -- ignored
23:01:28 <kmc> zip != gzip
23:01:56 <Sgeo> So, I need to unzip
23:02:02 <Sgeo> There's no unzip
23:05:05 <zzo38> Does it have a different program that unzips, such as 7-Zip or whatever else?
23:05:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 7zip: not found
23:05:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 7z: not found
23:06:36 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
23:06:50 <oerjan> `run ls /usr/bin/*zip*
23:07:05 <HackEgo> /bin/bunzip2 \ /bin/bzip2 \ /bin/bzip2recover \ /bin/gunzip \ /bin/gzip
23:07:20 <oerjan> `bunzip clojure-1.4.0.zip
23:07:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bunzip: not found
23:07:28 <oerjan> `bunzip2 clojure-1.4.0.zip
23:07:31 <HackEgo> bunzip2: Can't guess original name for clojure-1.4.0.zip -- using clojure-1.4.0.zip.out \ bunzip2: clojure-1.4.0.zip is not a bzip2 file.
23:08:46 <Sgeo> Does tar have something?
23:09:01 <Sgeo> I think it tends to have decompression stuff, but can that be used on its own?
23:09:26 <zzo38> Can you use jar to unzip stuff, or does that not work?
23:09:52 <HackEgo> Usage: jar {ctxui}[vfm0Me] [jar-file] [manifest-file] [entry-point] [-C dir] files ... \ Options: \ -c create new archive \ -t list table of contents for archive \ -x extract named (or all) files from archive \ -u update existing archive \ -v generate verbose output on standard output \ -f specify archive file name \ -m include manifest information from specified manifest file
23:10:21 <Sgeo> `jar -x clojure-1.4.0.zip
23:10:25 <HackEgo> Illegal option: \ Usage: jar {ctxui}[vfm0Me] [jar-file] [manifest-file] [entry-point] [-C dir] files ... \ Options: \ -c create new archive \ -t list table of contents for archive \ -x extract named (or all) files from archive \ -u update existing archive \ -v generate verbose output on standard output \ -f specify archive file name \ -m include manifest information from specified
23:10:40 <Sgeo> `jar x clojure-1.4.0.zip
23:10:44 <HackEgo> Illegal option: \ Usage: jar {ctxui}[vfm0Me] [jar-file] [manifest-file] [entry-point] [-C dir] files ... \ Options: \ -c create new archive \ -t list table of contents for archive \ -x extract named (or all) files from archive \ -u update existing archive \ -v generate verbose output on standard output \ -f specify archive file name \ -m include manifest information from specified
23:10:51 <itidus21> @google can jar open zip files
23:10:52 <lambdabot> http://ostermiller.org/opening_jar_files.html
23:11:28 <Sgeo> `run jar -x clojure-1.4.0.zip
23:11:41 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
23:11:56 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ clojure-1.4.0.zip \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
23:12:07 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ clojure-1.4.0.zip \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
23:12:29 <itidus21> " In fact, any program that can open zip files can open jar files. The jar format is identical to the zip file format."
23:12:53 <Sgeo> `mv clojure-1.4.0.zip clojure-1.4.0.jar
23:12:56 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `clojure-1.4.0.zip clojure-1.4.0.jar' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
23:13:06 <Sgeo> `run mv clojure-1.4.0.zip clojure-1.4.0.jar
23:13:11 <Sgeo> `run jar -x clojure-1.4.0.jar
23:13:42 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ clojure-1.4.0.jar \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
23:13:51 <Sgeo> It didn't No output yet.
23:14:06 <oerjan> neither did the first one
23:14:17 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ clojure-1.4.0.jar \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
23:15:08 <Sgeo> Maybe we can just grap unzip?
23:15:53 <zzo38> What mapper should be use with this? http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=9312
23:16:51 <Sgeo> http://downloads.sourceforge.net/project/p7zip/p7zip/9.20.1/p7zip_9.20.1_x86_linux_bin.tar.bz2?r=http%3A%2F%2Fsourceforge.net%2Fprojects%2Fp7zip%2Ffiles%2Fp7zip%2F9.20.1%2F&ts=1347751002&use_mirror=softlayer
23:16:59 <Sgeo> `fetch http://downloads.sourceforge.net/project/p7zip/p7zip/9.20.1/p7zip_9.20.1_x86_linux_bin.tar.bz2?r=http%3A%2F%2Fsourceforge.net%2Fprojects%2Fp7zip%2Ffiles%2Fp7zip%2F9.20.1%2F&ts=1347751002&use_mirror=softlayer
23:17:03 <HackEgo> 2012-09-15 23:17:03 URL:http://softlayer.dl.sourceforge.net/project/p7zip/p7zip/9.20.1/p7zip_9.20.1_x86_linux_bin.tar.bz2 [2152153/2152153] -> "p7zip_9.20.1_x86_linux_bin.tar.bz2?r=http:%2F%2Fsourceforge.net%2Fprojects%2Fp7zip%2Ffiles%2Fp7zip%2F9.20.1%2F&ts=1347751002&use_mirror=softlayer" [1]
23:17:31 <Sgeo> I blame sourceforge
23:17:59 <Sgeo> `run mv "p7zip_9.20.1_x86_linux_bin.tar.bz2?r=http:%2F%2Fsourceforge.net%2Fprojects%2Fp7zip%2Ffiles%2Fp7zip%2F9.20.1%2F&ts=1347751002&use_mirror=softlayer" p7zip.tar.bz2
23:18:49 <Sgeo> `run tar -xjf p7zip.tar.bz2
23:19:05 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access p7zip: No such file or directory
23:19:12 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ clojure-1.4.0.jar \ foo \ karma \ lib \ p7zip.tar.bz2 \ p7zip_9.20.1 \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
23:19:50 <Sgeo> `run p7zip_9.20.1/bin/7z
23:19:53 <HackEgo> bash: p7zip_9.20.1/bin/7z: cannot execute binary file
23:20:06 <Sgeo> A failing attempt to extract a .zip file
23:20:50 <Sgeo> `run file p7zip_9.20.1/bin/7z
23:20:54 <HackEgo> p7zip_9.20.1/bin/7z: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.0.30, stripped
23:26:52 <oerjan> 22:15:34: <Arc_Koen> so, a machine consisting of two "registers" (actually variables A and B holding an unbounded non-negative integer), and a finite list of instructions taken from the set {"A++", "B++", "A--", "B--", "A<-0", "B<-0", "A<-B", "B<-A", "if A=0 goto x", "if B=0 goto x", "if A=B goto x", "halt"}
23:26:57 <oerjan> 22:15:42: <Arc_Koen> the set of all those machines have been proven to be turing-complete?
23:27:14 <oerjan> that sounds like an equivalent formulation of a 2-register minsky machine, so yes
23:27:18 <Arc_Koen> yup I'm writing a TC proof for Maze under that assumption
23:27:56 <oerjan> you don't need "if A=B goto x", or any assignments
23:28:10 <Arc_Koen> it uses two cars, one for each register; all instructions are very easy to translate, except for the if .. goto which need to solve a wire-crossing problem
23:28:30 <Arc_Koen> so I can just get rid of the if and not bother with the wire crossing?
23:28:35 <oerjan> only increment/decrement and branch
23:28:52 * Arc_Koen was gonna set up a system with a third car holding a value to indicate which direction the car was going
23:28:55 <oerjan> erm you definitely need the =0 ifs
23:29:16 <Arc_Koen> I can only get rid of the if A=B goto x then?
23:30:05 <Arc_Koen> waow, it's very easy to be turing complete
23:30:28 <oerjan> you need to initialize A and B at the start, of course
23:31:42 <Arc_Koen> yes I'm assuming the car is holding 0 at the beginning
23:31:53 <oerjan> you can also try 3-cell brainfuck, which has less wirecrossing i believe :)
23:31:55 <Arc_Koen> well there are a lot of things which are not really precise in Maze specifications
23:32:24 <Arc_Koen> for instance for the truth-machine I was gonna write the loop as a 2x2 square
23:32:43 <Arc_Koen> but I thought maybe it was safer to write it as a 3x3 square with a wall in the central cell
23:33:12 <Arc_Koen> well 3-cell brainfuck has while loops
23:34:08 <Arc_Koen> urhh, I have to write everything again with three cars, in that case
23:35:03 <Arc_Koen> hmmm but then I need a way to decide which car is the "current" car
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23:37:50 <oerjan> note that the 3-cell brainfuck tc-proof only uses balanced loops, so it's always known at a program position which cell is the current one
23:38:04 <oerjan> so you don't _have_ to implement dynamic <>
23:38:18 <Arc_Koen> actually I think it can be quite easy to implement
23:38:53 <Arc_Koen> and that'd give an explicit proof
23:39:01 <Arc_Koen> or whatever is the correct english word for that
23:39:25 <Arc_Koen> (that is, a proof that not only proves it's possible, but gives an explicit way to do it)
23:41:28 <oerjan> i think you could do general gotos if you had a car keep the current statement number as its value, and used a giant tree of IF THEN ELSEs
23:42:13 <oerjan> it would then be possible to keep the maze part fixed and have all the program data in the functions
23:42:24 <Arc_Koen> my idea was to actually allow to cross wires, with the crossing being ruled by a third car, which value indicate in which wire the car is going
23:42:43 <Arc_Koen> (but that may be overcomplciated)
23:42:57 <Arc_Koen> I'm not sure what you mean by the giant tree of if then elses though
23:43:32 <olsner> kmc: e.g. "python -c '" followed by the whole thing and then a ' on a line of its own?
23:43:44 <oerjan> IF ** THEN IF ==1 THEN =5 ELSE IF ==2 THEN =1 ELSE ... ELSE IF ==1 THEN ...
23:43:51 <olsner> I think that'll cause difficulty with single-quoted strings in the python code
23:44:05 <Sgeo> So, should I take my attempts to get Clojure working into an msg with HackEgo?
23:44:10 <oerjan> basically a single function which does all the branching line number calculation
23:45:07 <Sgeo> olsner, a functional Lisp on the JVM
23:45:16 <oerjan> and other functions which guide the line number car to the right **'s to tell the other cars what the actual instruction is
23:45:39 <olsner> (fwiw, I ended up replacing my shell needs with os.popen ... if anyone needs to use my program on pathes with spaces or other special characters in them, they'll simply be screwed)
23:45:54 <kmc> don't use os.popen, use subprocess module
23:46:03 <oerjan> putting the control flow in the maze is nicely visual, though :)
23:46:13 <kmc> and you can pass a list of args rather than a single string to be interpreted by the shell
23:46:17 <olsner> subprocess.OHMYGODALLTHECHARACTERSIMWASTING
23:46:30 <olsner> os.popen is shorter :)
23:46:36 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: you have a car whose value is the current program line number
23:46:44 <kmc> that's a great justification for choosing one piece of software over another
23:46:57 <kmc> in python you can just do "import subprocess; p = subprocess"
23:47:04 <kmc> or of course "from subprocess import foo, bar"
23:47:05 <olsner> the whole python stdlib is filled with "oh, btw we did it all wrong, now use <other lib>"
23:47:09 <kmc> that's true
23:47:10 <Arc_Koen> "so it's always known at a program position which cell is the current one" you mean I really don't need to implement > and <, but only +-., applied to each of the three cells?
23:47:15 <kmc> but is true of most languages as well
23:47:39 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: well the proof doesn't actually use ., since it does just computation
23:47:47 <Sgeo> Clojure is still in the stage of learning what they did wrong
23:48:00 <olsner> I suppose python users should be happy that the python maintainers admit they did it all wrong, and should also be happy that various future versions have fixes for some of the bugs
23:48:19 <oerjan> in fact i never got a good way of getting arbitrary length output out it
23:48:20 <olsner> as opposed to php where it's derples all the way :)
23:48:48 <Arc_Koen> so I have a line-number car, and what does it do in case of a goto?
23:49:47 <Arc_Koen> oh, wait, now I'm starting of implementing "come from" instead of "go to"
23:50:21 <Sgeo> I found just the jar on Maven
23:50:53 <Sgeo> `fetch http://search.maven.org/remotecontent?filepath=org/clojure/clojure/1.4.0/clojure-1.4.0.jar
23:51:01 <HackEgo> 2012-09-15 23:51:00 URL:http://search.maven.org/remotecontent?filepath=org/clojure/clojure/1.4.0/clojure-1.4.0.jar [3421683/3421683] -> "remotecontent?filepath=org%2Fclojure%2Fclojure%2F1.4.0%2Fclojure-1.4.0.jar" [1]
23:51:24 <Sgeo> `run mv "remotecontent?filepath=org%2Fclojure%2Fclojure%2F1.4.0%2Fclojure-1.4.0.jar" clojure-1.4.0.jar
23:52:21 <olsner> I think one of the funnier examples is options parsing, where it seems every major python release has come with a new incompatible library for options parsing, deprecating whatever was there before
23:53:29 <oerjan> <Arc_Koen> so I have a line-number car, and what does it do in case of a goto? <-- it runs a function which calculates the new line number. hm i guess you might need some cleverness since you need to test different registers in different statements
23:53:45 <Sgeo> `run java -cp clojure-1.4.0.jar clojure.main -e "(+ 1 1)"
23:54:17 <oerjan> note that if you use gotos you only need 2 registers, as previously stated
23:55:42 <Sgeo> Oh this is easier to type
23:55:42 <Sgeo> `run java -jar clojure-1.4.0.jar -e "(+ 1 1)"
23:56:57 <elliott> i distinctly remember sgeo going on about clojure sucking some months back
23:57:22 <oerjan> there need to be signals the line number car can go to for signaling A++, A--, B++ and B--. and functions to decide based on line number to decide whether it hits each of them
23:57:25 <olsner> he might still be going
23:57:42 -!- nooga_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:57:49 <Sgeo> Hmm, I don't remember. It's at least partially possible that some of the ranting was about the JVM, and I decided just to hold my nose
23:58:09 <oerjan> then there are signals for the A and B cars to go to for signalling whether or not they are 0, at different times, at which the line number car does branching calculations.
23:59:53 <Sgeo> elliott, do you remember what any of the ranting was about, specifically?
00:00:10 <Sgeo> I mean, I have new rants about the intellect of the community, but that's separate
00:03:56 <kmc> what are they
00:04:14 <elliott> i don't generally take notes of the exact details of what people rant about
00:04:40 <oerjan> YOU'RE SO STUPID YOU CANNOT FIND YOUR WAY OUT OF A SLEEPING BAG hth
00:05:16 <Sgeo> Well, I guess more about one specific person. I mean, how do you manage to make a monad library and just break the monad laws for one of the provided monads?
00:06:49 <kmc> probably by concluding that haskellers are full of shit when they tell everyone it's very important to follow the laws and then fail to give any concrete reason for it
00:09:03 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: btw was chris pressey's message on Talk:Maze what got you started on this? It's essentially the same as what you are doing. :)
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00:15:18 <Sgeo> I do think you can sensibly do something similar to what algo.monads does, though. Wait, hmm, not like that
00:15:30 * Sgeo needs to think a bit
00:15:42 <oerjan> elliott: his mom, probably
00:16:14 <oerjan> unless she's the only person in the world to inscrutably use his middle name
00:16:16 <elliott> q: does ais523 even have parents. do parents even exist?
00:17:00 <oerjan> his grandmother _thinks_ she's using his middle name, but has forgotten that the i isn't for isaac
00:17:17 <quintopia> though i've known people to utter that pornographic obscenity "mother" from time to time
00:17:50 <Sgeo> "ais523" reminds me of "sam512"
00:19:28 <quintopia> two different personalities in the same body
00:22:08 <Sgeo> http://everything2.com/title/The%2520Teach%2520Yourself%2520to%2520be%2520a%2520Dummy%2520in%252024%2520Hours%2520Bible
00:22:59 <elliott> do i really want to click that link
00:23:23 <Sgeo> There's a really weird Perl subroutine.
00:23:28 <Sgeo> Assuming that it really is valid Perl
00:23:50 <kmc> http://everything2.com/title/Primality+testing+with+Perl+regexs
00:24:50 <kmc> oh this is pretty simple actually
00:25:49 <kmc> /^(11+)\1+$/ is a perl "reg"ex matching composite unary numbers
00:25:54 <kmc> /^(11+)\1+$/ is a perl "reg"ex matching composite unary numbers
00:27:01 <kmc> (11+) captures 2 or more '1' digits
00:27:17 <kmc> \1+ matches one or more copies of what was captured
00:27:24 <kmc> \1 meaning "first capture group"
00:27:50 <kmc> a unary number is composite if you can take off 2 or more 1s, and then represent the rest of the number by n copies of that
00:27:57 <kmc> (in which case it is divisible by n+1)
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00:32:58 <kmc> exercise: prove that the language of all composite unary numbers is not actually regular
00:34:00 <Phantom_Hoover> if composite numbers were regular, primes wouldn't be half as interesting as they are
00:44:33 <Sgeo> I guess regexes aren't always efficient
00:45:17 <kmc> perl regexes can do a lot of things, you can even embed arbitrary perl code in them
00:45:28 <kmc> but also some cases even of actual regular expressions are very slow on some common interpreters
00:45:31 <kmc> http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html
00:45:45 <oerjan> proof: if it's regular then there is a DFSA recognizing it. for a long enough string of 1's it must repeat state, which means there is some number k that can be added to any sufficiently large number and keep it as prime or composite. but if p is a large prime then p+k*p is then also prime, a contradiction.
00:51:16 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
00:55:54 <pikhq> kmc: Of course, common interpreters are often very poorly implemented.
00:56:55 <pikhq> ... As that article describes. :)
01:01:39 <Arc_Koen> ok, [ and ] translated into maze as well
01:01:48 <Arc_Koen> Maze successfully passed its Turing final exam!
01:05:30 <Sgeo> `run java -jar clojure-1.4.0.jar -e "(use 'clojure.template) (macroexpand-1 '(do-template [a b c] (+ a b (- a c)) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9))"
01:05:52 <HackEgo> (do (+ 1 2 (- 1 3)) (+ 4 5 (- 4 6)) (+ 7 8 (- 7 9)))
01:08:58 * Sgeo couldn't think of a useful and easily demonstratable demonstration off the top of my head, but I think it's useful in general
01:09:45 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> How common is do-template/
01:09:45 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> *Commonly used
01:09:50 <Sgeo> <amalloy> Sgeo: ~never
01:10:19 <kmc> what is it for
01:10:55 <Sgeo> I can imagine using it for defining a bunch of similar functions with different distinct parts
01:11:09 <Sgeo> Erm, and what parts are different fixed
01:11:43 <kmc> didn't you just describe all macros
01:13:20 <Sgeo> Well, yes, but if I have a series of these things, I might not want to write a macro name repeatedly. I could just write a macro that takes a bunch of forms the way do-template does, but why not just use do-template?
01:15:17 * oerjan thinks he just finished his construction proving reversible brainfuck TC
01:15:43 <Sgeo> reversible brainfuck?
01:16:01 <oerjan> like brainfuck, except [ jumps when _not_ zero
01:16:46 <oerjan> this makes it reversible (apart from possibly I/O, dependent on how you look at it)
01:22:26 <shachaf> What about reversible boof?!
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01:30:35 <Sgeo> `run java -jar clojure-1.4.0.jar -e "(repeat 5)
01:30:36 <Sgeo> `run java -jar clojure-1.4.0.jar -e "(repeat 5)"
01:30:38 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:31:11 <HackEgo> (5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5
01:35:13 <HackEgo> exe: cannot set terminal process group (-1): Inappropriate ioctl for device \ exe: no job control in this shell \ exe-4.1$
01:37:42 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: do you have a link to your proof that 3-cell brainfuck is turing complete?
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01:43:04 <shachaf> `run cat /proc/$PPID/cmdline
01:46:11 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Collatz_function
01:46:58 <Arc_Koen> well that link is missing both from the brainfuck page and your user page
01:47:28 <Jafet> n-cell brainfuck is similar to an n-counter minsky machine.
01:49:09 <Arc_Koen> well that's easy to say now that both have been shown turing complete ;)
01:50:08 <Jafet> They are obviously similar. Now they're proved to be equivalent.
01:53:11 <Jafet> 98 bottles of champagne
01:54:50 * itidus21 spasms and shrieks. emits hq9c+
01:55:21 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: no it is in the brainfuck page under computational class
01:55:55 <oerjan> Jafet: n-1 or n-2 counter minsky machine, actually. that restricted control flow _hurts_.
01:56:52 <Arc_Koen> oh... I checked that but somehow the sentence "Oerjan has made a conversion from iterated Collatz functions to 3-cell brainfuck." did not make me realize the proof was at the Collatz functions page
01:57:03 <Jafet> Ok, so you need to encode the input as fractran does.
01:57:15 <Arc_Koen> let's say that's because it is 4am
01:57:38 <oerjan> it's also linked on my own article, although as "brainfuck"
01:57:42 <itidus21> if the accumulator could be used as input for the h and 9 functions in hq9+, being reset to zero after
01:58:19 <itidus21> so in the case of 9, in the case that the accumulator is not zero, it would count accumulator bottles of beer
01:59:00 <itidus21> and for h it would do something or other
01:59:24 <Arc_Koen> well let's say I did not spot it, once again because of the time!
01:59:38 <itidus21> nevermind.. creeps back into my corner
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02:05:52 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Reversible_Brainfuck#Computational_class
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02:25:54 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr \ var
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02:27:33 <Jafet> `run echo 'import Data.List;import System.Process;import System.Posix;main=do x<-readProcess "ps"["axo","pid,ppid"]"";s<-getProcessID;let{ps=map((\[a,b]->(read a,read b)).words)$tail.lines$x;c=unfoldr(\p->case lookup p ps of Just pp->Just(pp,pp);_->Nothing)$fromEnum s};print c' | runghc
02:27:38 <HackEgo> ghc: can't find a package database at /usr/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d
02:29:13 <oerjan> `pastelogs <gregor.*ghc
02:29:45 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `/hackenv': File exists \ http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23181
02:29:52 <oerjan> `pastelogs <gregor.*ghc
02:30:03 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9081
02:30:08 <oerjan> Gregor: WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOUR BOT
02:30:35 <Jafet> I'll just have to exploit it in a less elegant language.
02:30:40 <oerjan> Jafet: <Gregor> I removed ghc because it was friggin' enormous
02:30:57 <Jafet> `run ghc --version
02:31:01 <HackEgo> The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 6.12.1
02:31:20 <oerjan> except not the actual binary
02:31:45 <shachaf> GHC should ship the base compiler for free and charge for extensions.
02:32:14 <oerjan> Jafet: <Gregor> I removed ghc because it was friggin' enormous
02:32:16 <Jafet> Monad transformer SDK
02:32:24 <Jafet> oerjan: why keep the binary
02:32:34 <kmc> Jafet: wtf does that do
02:32:46 <oerjan> because it wasn't in the directory he deleted with everything else in it
02:34:30 <shachaf> Looks like it traces a process tree or something?
02:36:53 <shachaf> `run i=$$; while [ $i -ne 0 ]; do echo $i; i=$(ps -p $i -o ppid=); done
02:38:47 <Jafet> `run echo /proc/272/cmdline
02:38:57 <Jafet> `run cat /proc/272/cmdline
02:40:19 <HackEgo> stat: cannot stat `/init': No such file or directory
02:41:39 <shachaf> `run cat /proc/272/cmdline | tr '\000' ' '
02:41:47 <shachaf> `run cat /proc/$PPID/cmdline | tr '\000' ' '
02:41:51 <HackEgo> sh -c 'env' 'PATH=/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin' 'HACKENV=/hackenv' 'http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128' '/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits' 'bash' '-c' 'cat /proc/$PPID/cmdline | tr '\''\000'\'' '\'' '\''' | cat
02:53:58 <Gregor> Jafet: You can "hack" in PM, btw.
02:55:10 <Jafet> Good to know. But collaborative hacking is better.
02:55:56 <Gregor> And yes, the binary is only there because everything else was in /opt/ghc :)
02:56:24 <shachaf> Gregor: Can you "hack" a working GHC onto the server?
02:57:53 <Gregor> shachaf: I could. I choose not to.
02:58:14 <shachaf> Gregor: Would you "hack" yourself so that you choose to install GHC?
02:58:27 <Gregor> shachaf: I could. I choose not to.
02:59:11 <kmc> hack, n. to connect a bunch of LEDs to an Arduino
02:59:28 <Gregor> Interesting how that definition is for a verb, right —
02:59:37 <Gregor> Corrected yourself before I could finish ^^
03:01:42 <shachaf> fine, v. Punish (someone) by making them pay a sum of money, typically as a penalty for breaking the law.
03:02:35 <kmc> shacha, f.
03:02:51 <itidus21> the difficult verb in that sentence, as always, is "making them"
03:03:07 <itidus21> the transitive verb of making someone do something is always awkward
03:07:18 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causative
03:07:47 <oerjan> "There are no regular causative inflections in English, nor in any of the major European languages, which resort to idiomatic uses of certain verbs like English make or have, French faire or laisser, or German lassen."
03:10:06 <oerjan> @tell Arc_Koen I think your [ in Maze is buggy, (1) It checks the rightmost cell not the middle, but only on the initial iteration (2) There shouldn't be any delays at the end of the straight down path.
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03:53:17 <Sgeo> There was a bot in #jesus that would ban people if they said anything that matched the regex an[^t]s
03:53:40 <Sgeo> (Among other regexes)
03:55:48 <Jafet> They don't like angst.
03:56:16 <oerjan> and they never read manuscripts
03:56:54 <Jafet> The intelligence of civilization waxes and wanes.
03:58:06 <zzo38> Did they remove it?
03:59:50 <zzo38> Did it strip control characters?
04:00:09 <zzo38> And Unicode zero-width spaces?
04:00:35 <zzo38> What if your nickname, username, domain name, or cloak included such words?
04:01:36 <Jafet> Technically, irc doesn't have unicode.
04:02:01 <Sgeo> zzo38, I don't remember, it was a time ago
04:06:11 <zzo38> I know, IRC is ASCII, although you can use any encodings compatible with ASCII in your message texts.
04:09:28 -!- augur has joined.
04:11:34 <zzo38> Some IRC servers do not allow to send certain words in PRIVMSG and NOTICE, and if you send it in a QUIT your entire quit message will be erased, but allows it in NS INFO and so on. I have also been told some IRC servers disconnect you if you send certain words to the server at all, regardless of message. But what if you put it in your reverse DNS?
04:16:28 <kmc> is Freenode like this?
04:16:41 <shachaf> kmc: Do you know about & channels?
04:16:44 <shachaf> Freenode doesn't have them.
04:17:23 <kmc> or i forgot what they are
04:17:32 <shachaf> Some networks have channels that start with & instead of #
04:17:38 <shachaf> They're specific to one IRC server.
04:18:58 <kmc> are they server-local?
04:19:05 <Sgeo> Java interop confuses me
04:19:10 <Sgeo> require vs import vs use
04:19:16 <zzo38> I suppose you might use the & channel for server status, for discussion of only one server, etc. There are four channel types in IRC: !#&+ and # is the only one subject to takeovers during a split.
04:19:23 <shachaf> Sgeo: Is Java Inte a new kind of ROP?
04:22:49 <Jafet> No no, java uses exceptions for control flow.
04:26:54 <kmc> what are ! and + channels like
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04:27:54 <zzo38> Channels with + do not support MODE; it is fixed at +nt. Channels with ! are like # except that there is some hidden numbers before the name which is used by servers, so if you try to takeover during a split you will end up with a new channel instead.
04:28:24 <zzo38> Therefore, # is the only one which is vulnerable to takeovers.
04:30:36 <shachaf> zzo38: Where are you getting that?
04:30:44 <shachaf> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1459.txt
04:30:54 <shachaf> Channels names are strings (beginning with a '&' or '#' character) of length up to 200 characters.
04:31:48 <zzo38> Maybe the ! and + channels are a different RFC. I don't know.
04:39:35 <kmc> that is mega ad hoc
05:24:50 * Sgeo does something with the dual intentions of being useful to him and perplexing to #esoteric
05:26:44 <Sgeo> You'll find out
05:27:29 <elliott> Sgeo: i'm about to leave and then not join this channel again for another few weeks so probably not
05:27:58 <Sgeo> Well, in less than 15 minutes, I just gave it away.
05:28:38 <Sgeo> Hmm, it actually might not work as I'm hoping, hmm
05:29:13 <Sgeo> (I'm abusing /timer to issue a thing to lambdabot in #esoteric to tell me when the water I'm boiling is done boiling)
05:36:12 <kmc> #cslunch has a bot specifically for that
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05:38:12 <Sgeo> How do I use it?
05:39:17 <kmc> %time 15 rice
05:40:16 <Sgeo> Cool, I'll use it, thanks
05:41:00 <Sgeo> > "Sgeo: Water done boiling"
05:42:14 <Sgeo> Oh, actually, sending it privately doesn't work
05:42:24 <Sgeo> It doesn't respond in private to setting it, but it does when the timer completes
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05:46:27 <shachaf> kmc: #cslunch seems to exist.
05:48:17 <kmc> it is the food topic channel associated with #cslounge
05:48:36 <kmc> a more creative name than #cslounge-food, is all
05:48:50 <shachaf> Did you leave all associated channels when you left?
06:08:02 <Sgeo> kmc, is "going on tangents" one of the reasons you left #haskell ? Because #cslounge is now debating over the meaning of the word "forum" after someone used "forum" instead of "channel"
06:09:40 <kmc> no, tangents are fine in general
06:09:55 <kmc> my complaints with #haskell are more specific than that
06:22:09 <kmc> it would be pretty hard to have any interesting conversations with any interesting people if you minded tangents
06:22:37 <pikhq> And this is the wrong room to be in if you hate tangents.
06:25:44 <shachaf> Tangents are hardly a sin.
06:26:12 <pikhq> Hmm, we were on topic today.
06:31:50 <kmc> let's debate the merits of tactile vs. linear keyswitches
06:36:06 <kmc> shachaf: is your "sin" comment also a pun?
06:36:09 <kmc> oh, yes. yes it is.
06:36:24 <kmc> of cos it is
06:36:51 <shachaf> kmc: Everything I say has at least one pun hidden in it.
06:36:58 <shachaf> If you look deeply enough.
06:37:21 <kmc> everything i say has at least one gun hidden in it
06:37:55 <shachaf> If you see a loaded pun in the first act, it'll be used in the second act.
06:38:54 <kmc> http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity1151.html
06:40:11 <pikhq> Man, Comic Chat was weird.
06:41:04 <pikhq> I bet nobody here's tried IRCing with it. Maybe I should be the first to do so.
06:41:20 <kmc> in my time in #haskell i saw at least one comic chat user
06:41:36 <shachaf> I don't know what Comic Chat is.
06:41:43 <shachaf> But I once set my font in irssi to Comic Sans.
06:41:48 <pikhq> shachaf: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/62/MsComicChat.png This sums it up.
06:41:51 <shachaf> That has to count for something, right?
06:41:58 <kmc> i always find it odd to see comic chat screenshots that aren't full of obscene nonsense
06:42:12 <pikhq> Comic Chat used Comic Sans.
06:42:56 <pikhq> Sorry, minor correction, *shipped with*.
06:43:22 <kmc> you know, just because drugs make music sound better, is no excuse to make awful music that's only tolerable when you're on drugs
06:43:38 <kmc> just throwing that out there
06:43:39 <shachaf> Which drugs are we talking about?
06:43:44 <pikhq> I have no experience with the former, but have to agree with the latter.
06:43:52 <shachaf> I'd ask which music, but it's terrible, so why bother.
06:43:56 <kmc> lots of them but marijuana in particular
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06:44:52 <kmc> nah, trance is one of the lesser offenders here, as far as electronic genres go
06:45:02 <kmc> at least, i find psytrance pretty enjoable to listen to while sober
06:45:14 <kmc> and by "psytrance" i mainly mean "infected mushroom"
06:45:18 <kmc> accept no imitations
06:45:37 <kmc> but i have just written a script which plays a random genre from di.fm and i am sort of regretting it
06:46:12 <kmc> Space Dreams - DIGITALLY IMPORTED - ambient space music for expanding minds
06:46:18 <Jafet> I still don't really know what dubstep is.
06:46:25 <Jafet> Or trance, for that matter
06:47:33 <kmc> http://gizmodo.com/5894092/dubstep-explained-with-hilarious-animation
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07:11:43 <pikhq> (who the hell tried that?)
07:11:43 <kmc> http://www.seattlepi.com/national/article/Woman-accused-of-giving-husband-lethal-sherry-1165596.php
07:11:50 <shachaf> "You can't drink anymore." "Is that a challenge?"
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07:11:58 <pikhq> Well, I suppose it'd be more of an enema.
07:12:10 <kmc> obviously the best way to take any drug is to dissolve it in DMSO and then just stick your hand in
07:13:39 <kmc> if you put your hand in DMSO you will taste garlic a moment later
07:14:02 <itidus21> this sounds like a highly dangerous thing
07:14:20 <kmc> allegedly it is pretty safe by itself
07:14:30 <kmc> but it lets other stuff through your skin
07:14:45 <itidus21> theres a lot of evil things that could be done with something liek that
07:15:13 <kmc> squirt gun full of LSD and DMSO
07:15:59 <kmc> also someone should just genetically engineer e. coli to produce psilocybin
07:16:02 <kmc> what could go wrong
07:16:20 <kmc> i think this is a hilarious apocalypse scenario
07:16:37 <pikhq> Nah, it's better to just convert cellulose to ethanol.
07:16:52 <pikhq> Thereby turning all plants into booze.
07:17:05 <shachaf> That way you get drunked with every brain cell u lose, right?
07:17:15 <kmc> your aim gets hecked
07:17:31 <shachaf> kmc: Everyone is trying to get me to move to Boston these days.
07:17:38 <kmc> people besides me?
07:17:44 <pikhq> Have you considered moving to antiBoston?
07:17:52 <shachaf> Yes, all the other Bostonpeople.
07:20:14 <itidus21> i heard that boston came second on a biased list of world's most livable cities.
07:20:56 <shachaf> kmc: Have you ever tried DMSO?
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09:09:11 <kallisti> so, GHC 7.6 now has a lambda case extension
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09:14:02 <shachaf> kmc: Did you see http://blog.ezyang.com/2012/01/problem-set-the-codensity-transformation/ ?
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10:26:13 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
10:26:17 <lambdabot> oerjan said 7h 16m 11s ago: I think your [ in Maze is buggy, (1) It checks the rightmost cell not the middle, but only on the initial iteration (2) There shouldn't be any delays at the end of the
10:26:52 <oerjan> to clarify, it doesn't do _any_ test of a cell other than on the initial iteration
10:26:54 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `:'
10:27:19 <Arc_Koen> I wanted to make the rightmost cell the "current" cell to ease things, but I forgot
10:27:28 <oerjan> yeah that does look simpler
10:27:44 <Arc_Koen> and yes you're right it doesn't do tests besides the first iteration, I'll change that
10:44:00 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: as for %D and others being usable in functions, that's one of the things the page is very imprecise about; I suspect you could use ## or -- or whatever as well in a function
10:45:51 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: erm the original text before you formatted said a lot of "maze only" and "functions only"
10:46:23 <oerjan> i just fixed the remaining exception
10:46:45 <Arc_Koen> you're sure it was the only one?
10:46:54 <oerjan> actually comments should also be allowed everywhere
10:47:49 <Arc_Koen> though if I was to implement Maze I wouldn't bother with comments in the maze
10:48:17 <oerjan> the 99 bottles has lots of comments
10:48:20 <Arc_Koen> I'd store everything in a 2d array and only check where the car is going
10:48:39 <Arc_Koen> yes, but I mean, it's like in Befunge - as long as you don't drive through the comments, there is no need to mark them as such
10:50:12 <Arc_Koen> ok, other bug in '[': if the condition is met in the first occurrence (so cars must continue downwards without bothering), they'd be desynchronized by the timings
10:50:20 <Arc_Koen> oh right that's what you meant
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16:24:45 <kmc> shachaf: did you know that Ivy Bridge contains a hardware RNG? http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/hardware/behind-intels-new-randomnumber-generator/0
16:25:56 <nortti> shouldn't the first example on the page http://esolangs.org/wiki/Real_Fast_Nora%27s_Hair_Salon_3:_Shear_Disaster_Download be LAMBDA LAMBDA LAMBDA APPLY ONE MORE THAN ONE MORE THAN ONE MORE THAN ZERO APPLY ONE MORE THAN ONE MORE THAN ZERO ONE MORE THAN ZERO ?
16:35:42 <Sgeo> I think JNAerator may be more tuned to generating code made to be accessible in Java vs making it easy to use from Clojure
16:35:51 <Sgeo> (No actual shock intended)
16:40:31 <Phantom_Hoover> You have to love the way that the site uses XHTML and CSS.
16:41:31 <nortti> well I didn't notice that when using links2
16:43:41 <Sgeo> "IE6 is the only browser that gets the box model right. Content + padding + border = overall width. What else should it be?"
16:43:47 <Sgeo> What is it supposed to be?
16:44:00 <Sgeo> And what's ... wrong with whatever it is that IE6 is described as doing there?
16:50:32 <fizzie> VIA PadLock has had a hardware on-chip RNG since January 2003.
16:51:54 <coppro> Sgeo: In the CSS model, the width is content only
16:51:59 <coppro> padding and border are on top of widht
16:52:03 <coppro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:W3C_and_Internet_Explorer_box_models.svg
16:52:30 <kmc> fizzie: yeah
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16:55:33 <FreeFull> The IE model does make sizing easier
16:55:47 <FreeFull> I think nowadays you can switch box models in CSS though?
16:58:11 <fizzie> You can box-sizing: border-box; though.
16:58:47 <FreeFull> http://www.css3.info/preview/box-sizing/
16:59:32 <Sgeo> "Internet Explorer 8, WebKit browsers such as Apple Safari 5.1+ and Google Chrome, Opera 7.0 and later, and Konqueror 3.3.2 and later support the CSS3 box-sizing property. Gecko-based browsers such as Mozilla Firefox support the same functionality using a proprietary "-moz-box-sizing" property,"
16:59:38 <Sgeo> (From Wikipedia)
16:59:45 <Sgeo> Are we allowed to have Firefox over this?
17:05:37 <fizzie> Sgeo: They're probably dropping the prefix as soon as https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=243412 gets closed.
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17:08:18 <Sgeo> fizzie, so, never?
17:11:30 <fizzie> Well now... they've closed a few of the depends.
17:25:03 <Sgeo> Why do both <embed> and <object> exist?
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17:39:00 <Sgeo> Hmm, Acid3 requires a web server that knows what it's doing
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17:47:51 <nortti> please sign this petition: http://saveie6.com/
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17:58:46 <FreeFull> nortti: Where will I get IE6 for Linux from
18:00:16 <nortti> then sign the petition so ie6 will be ported to other architectures
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18:02:30 <zzo38> Why do you need IE6 on Linux?
18:02:58 <kmc> qemu is surprisingly fast
18:03:13 <nortti> zzo38: http://saveie6.com/
18:03:30 <oerjan> <nortti> shouldn't the first example on the page http://esolangs.org/wiki/Real_Fast_Nora%27s_Hair_Salon_3:_Shear_Disaster_Download be LAMBDA LAMBDA LAMBDA APPLY ONE MORE THAN ONE MORE THAN ONE MORE THAN ZERO APPLY ONE MORE THAN ONE MORE THAN ZERO ONE MORE THAN ZERO ?
18:03:43 <oerjan> i think i checked the example was correct...
18:04:56 <oerjan> \ \ \ (3 (2 1)), or \x y z -> x (y z). that is composition, not church addition.
18:05:16 <atriq> Indices are zero-based
18:05:36 <oerjan> well it's wrong even so
18:06:12 <oerjan> atriq: i'm not sure if you've been on since i made the implementation
18:06:39 <atriq> Haven't looked at it in detail, though
18:06:44 <atriq> I've been a crazy homestuck this weekend
18:07:03 <oerjan> crazy homestuck, or crazy with homestuck?
18:07:53 <atriq> Been hanging out with all the other readers of homestuck
18:08:03 <atriq> In the North-East of England
18:08:09 <atriq> Who are willing to be hung out with
18:08:29 <atriq> Yesterday was a meet-up
18:09:46 <atriq> Well, less a con and more "let's see if we can get 200 people in anime costumes into two small rooms"
18:09:50 <oerjan> so we now know who here is a con man
18:10:04 <atriq> I reckon it's zzo38
18:10:08 <fizzie> 1. (1) victimize, swindle, rook, goldbrick, nobble, diddle, bunco, defraud, scam, mulct, gyp, gip, hornswoggle, short-change, con -- (deprive of by deceit; "He swindled me out of my inheritance"; "She defrauded the customers who trusted her"; "the cashier gypped me when he gave me too little change")
18:10:51 <oerjan> no:mulkt means en:fine
18:11:00 <lambdabot> *** "mulct" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
18:11:00 <lambdabot> n 1: money extracted as a penalty [syn: {fine}, {mulct},
18:11:00 <lambdabot> v 1: deprive of by deceit; "He swindled me out of my
18:11:19 <fizzie> Apparently no:mulkt also means en:mulct.
18:11:45 <fizzie> Sorry, but it's a silly word.
18:11:49 <oerjan> although no:bot is more common
18:12:07 <atriq> I should not be allowed to dance
18:12:19 <fizzie> "no:bot" is some kind of an IRC bot.
18:12:33 <lambdabot> *** "win" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
18:12:33 <lambdabot> n 1: a victory (as in a race or other competition); "he was
18:12:33 <lambdabot> 2: something won (especially money) [syn: {winnings}, {win},
18:12:38 <lambdabot> {profits}] [ant: {losings}, {losses}]
18:12:39 <lambdabot> v 1: be the winner in a contest or competition; be victorious;
18:12:41 <lambdabot> "He won the Gold Medal in skating"; "Our home team won";
18:12:47 <lambdabot> 2: win something through one's efforts; "I acquired a passing
18:12:51 <lambdabot> Plugin `todo' failed with: @todo has no args, try @todo-add or @list todo
18:13:38 <oerjan> <atriq> I reckon it's zzo38 <-- hm this idea gives me cognitive dissonance - it is both obviously true and obviously false
18:14:01 <oerjan> for the other "con" meaning, that is
18:14:14 <oerjan> i doubt zzo38 would ever defraud anyone
18:15:32 <oerjan> zzo38: do you go to cons?
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18:29:45 <zzo38> oerjan: I go to anime convention in August
18:31:34 * oerjan adjusts the real fast nora implementation slightly
18:32:30 <oerjan> i think this makes it impossible for the program to make any use of the particular number calculation mechanism used
18:32:36 <zzo38> If you know some things about hardware design with discrete logic: http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?p=99641#p99641 How simple do you think such a design would be? How much would it cost?
18:33:38 <oerjan> basically v, which is borrowed from unlambda, is a function which is entirely unusable in a pure language without continuations
18:33:53 <oerjan> since applying it to anything gives itself back
18:34:10 <zzo38> Do you know if it is even possible to use an audio signal to clock anything?
18:34:29 <oerjan> zzo38: that would be a rather slow clock, wouldn't it?
18:36:20 <oerjan> (unlambda of course perversely ties it in with i/o, so you _have_ to use it.)
18:36:45 <oerjan> (but then unlambda is impure and has continuations.)
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18:42:57 <atriq> A pure language is kind of like a particle collider
18:44:11 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes it is a slow clock, but read what I wrote I did not intend it to clock a CPU, I intend it to clock a 4-bit counter, which is then mixed with the audio.
18:44:31 <atriq> I actually had thoughts behind that statement
18:44:42 <zzo38> Would that even work, though?
18:45:01 <oerjan> atriq: i feel it may tend to understate the messiness of particle collisions
18:45:40 <atriq> I have a function q :: Int -> IO [Int].
18:45:43 <oerjan> zzo38: i cannot see any reason why that couldn't be made... but i'm no circuit designer.
18:45:49 <atriq> How can you work out what it does?
18:46:02 <atriq> Throwing stuff at it and seeing which countries you destroy
18:46:48 <oerjan> nah q is harmless. it's blofeld you should be wary about.
18:47:48 <atriq> There was a Doctor cosplayer today, and a doctor (from yesterday's episode) cosplayer too
18:47:55 <zzo38> The audio is already amplified, it may be a square wave (with different volume settings and duty settings) but can also be triangle wave, what happen if that is used for clock?
18:49:40 <kmc> shachaf: I can't decide whether to add CVE-2012-0056 to my kernel exploits talk
18:50:09 <kmc> it's an interesting and unusual sort of vulnerability, but for exactly this reason it will be annoying to explain, and will break the flow of everything else (which is mostly about memory corruption)
18:50:21 <kmc> atriq: hey, all the *function* does is return an inert IO action ;)
18:50:53 <oerjan> IO actions don't kill people. Runtime systems with IO actions kill people.
18:51:13 <kmc> programming languages don't kill people, interpreters do
18:52:28 <atriq> Maybe I'm evil and that contains unsafePerformIO
18:53:51 <kmc> :t \k -> let x = unsafePerformIO k in x `seq` (return x `asTypeOf` k)
18:59:32 <oerjan> hm i don't know what to answer on today's iwc poll. i'll have to wait until a night i can see the big dipper.
18:59:54 <atriq> oerjan, did I thread-title well?
19:00:30 <oerjan> um i haven't got to that forum section yet
19:00:47 <oerjan> i only read the forum twice a week
19:01:08 <atriq> At one point, I was only reading them twice an hour
19:01:27 <atriq> That's how I'm in the top 25 posters
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19:02:46 <FreeFull> Functional programming works best with a little impurity mixed in (but not too much)
19:03:04 <atriq> I think everything works best with other things thrown at it
19:03:15 <atriq> Hence why we're not all using Lazy K in our day-to-day lives
19:05:02 <Sgeo> Huh. So psyduck is a pokemon.
19:05:49 <Sgeo> I just knew it from that ... thing in Canada
19:06:11 <Sgeo> And by Canada I mean IRCnomic
19:06:50 <oerjan> <atriq> oerjan, did I thread-title well? <-- ACCEPTABLE
19:07:04 <Sgeo> http://www.mail-archive.com/agora-business@agoranomic.org/msg04249.html
19:16:45 <kmc> FreeFull: i agree
19:16:51 <kmc> people always say that as though it's a damning criticism of haskell
19:16:58 <kmc> as though haskell has no way to handle IO, state, etc.
19:17:22 <kmc> imo Haskell's is the pragmatic moderate position
19:17:29 <FreeFull> Haskell allows impurity if you really want to
19:17:37 <kmc> rather than "side effects everywhere for no reason" it's "effects where you need them, and pay attention"
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19:18:09 <kmc> i blame the haskell beginners who write breathless excited blog posts where they completely misunderstand the language and what its "purity" actually means
19:18:22 <kmc> but i'm just bitter
19:25:39 <kmc> imo people should stop talking about "pure" vs "impure" functions
19:25:52 <kmc> in haskell you have functions and you have actions; they are separate and complimentary things
19:26:17 <zzo38> O no!!! Basketball is difficult! My best PG and SF are injured! I have only one SF remaining! And, I only have one PF and one C remaining! I want to buy more but it is too expensive!!!!
19:26:33 <kmc> zzo38 you are employee of the month
19:27:26 <kmc> that's why i buy basketball players in bulk over the internet
19:27:29 <zzo38> I don't think there is "employee of the month", either in this computer game or in places where I do work.
19:27:53 <shachaf> kmc: You're doing the talk again?
19:28:04 <zzo38> kmc: You buy basketball players in bulk over the internet?
19:28:47 <shachaf> Ah, this is the one where a program overwrites its memory by writing to /proc/mem?
19:32:13 <zzo38> Do you know of Csound can use audio signals to clock other signals?
19:37:59 <fizzie> There was the author of Nyquist (the synthesis language) at this speech conference giving a talk about computers and music. (They like to schedule keynotes that are a bit "different".)
19:38:33 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: your Maze [ looks good now :)
19:45:58 <zzo38> I do not know if any Famicom cartridge uses the Audio Out pin for any purpose other than mixing with its own audio, although it seem that it could be used for other things too, such as: * Controllable filter * Controllable volume (which affects even triangle and DPCM, and gives more levels for square) * Amplitude modulation or frequency modulation of other audio
19:51:26 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: I'm too lazy to implement an interpreter for Maze. Do you know of another language I might want to work on? :)
20:08:56 <Arc_Koen> are we sure any graph can be represented as an eodermdrome string of characters?
20:09:07 <Arc_Koen> well obviously it has to be connex, but appart from that
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20:10:58 <Arc_Koen> for instance if the graph is a "star" (A, B, C, D, E, with A connected to every other and others not connected between them), I don't see how it can be represented in an eodermdrome way
20:13:10 <fizzie> And certainly one string can't represent any graph; e.g. if the graph has more than 26 nodes.
20:13:12 <Arc_Koen> ohhh you can duplicate edges, ok
20:13:36 <fizzie> "There is an arc between any two letters which are consecutive in the string, but not otherwise."
20:18:02 <fizzie> Annoys me every time I see it: esolang wiki Eodermdrome article mentions that the initial state graph is planar, yet the illustration has crossing edges. (And it would need relatively minor changes to avoid those.)
20:20:07 <tswett> Technically, there's no such thing as a "string of whitespace that contains punctuation marks".
20:23:12 <atriq> fizzie, it is planar. That particular representation has crossing edges.
20:23:24 <tswett> That's fizzie's point.
20:23:31 <tswett> It should br drawn without crossing edges.
20:23:37 <atriq> I don't see why anyone should worry
20:23:47 <atriq> It's not stopping it from actually being planar
20:24:48 <fizzie> I didn't say I had logically immaculate reasons for being annoyed by it.
20:25:11 <fizzie> It doesn't "look planar" when it has "unnecessary" crossing edges, is all.
20:25:34 <tswett> I like how oerjan's bct.sss (a BCT interpreter in ///) starts by making ///'s syntax nicer.
20:34:12 <tswett> I notice that the /// quine is completely unexplained.
20:35:27 <olsner> tswett: is it not obvious?
20:35:53 <oerjan> <fizzie> Annoys me every time I see it: esolang wiki Eodermdrome article mentions that the initial state graph is planar, yet the illustration has crossing edges. (And it would need relatively minor changes to avoid those.) <-- yeah that annoys me too, especially as i carefully made the previous ascii version have none :(
20:35:53 <tswett> Those slashes go that way, and *those* slashes go *that* way.
20:36:34 <olsner> indeed.. the significant realization is that there are two kinds of slashes being used
20:36:45 <oerjan> tswett: it does use _almost_ the same principles as the bct interpreter, though.
20:37:26 <oerjan> i needed to use 3 /'s instead of 2 to start tokens, though.
20:41:35 <tswett> Obviously, this will cause it to cease to be a quine.
20:42:39 <oerjan> fwiw ///\\ is the quoting prefix in the quine, iirc
20:44:06 <oerjan> hmph elliott has still not fixed the broken /// links
20:46:28 * tswett introduces syntactic sugar for ///\\
20:46:38 <tswett> As well as syntactic sugar for... everything.
20:46:51 <oerjan> that's essentially what . is in most of my other programs
20:47:02 <tswett> (, |, and ) are all replaced with /. ! and _ are \/ and //, respectively.
20:47:18 <oerjan> (well sugar for whatever the quoting prefix is)
20:47:19 <tswett> Also, the first two lines are, of course:
20:47:44 <tswett> Sending those two messages was not trivial.
20:47:47 <tswett> Well... it was trivial.
20:47:54 <tswett> But not absolutely trivial.
20:48:48 <oerjan> i don't see the point of ! and _ there
20:48:59 <tswett> It makes substitutions easier to read.
20:49:16 <tswett> Instead of \/\/\/\\\\ for ///\\, you can see !!!__ for ///\\.
20:50:48 <oerjan> oh and things starting with ///\/ are other tokens.
20:51:28 <oerjan> you'll have to find out yourself where they end :)
20:51:47 <tswett> / I don't know what . is //
20:51:56 <tswett> / Whatever this is, I don't know what it is, either //
20:55:23 <oerjan> i vaguely recall when i made the bct interpreter, i considered introducing syntactic sugar for combinations of escaping with \ and escaping with //\\ (its quoting token), but i thought better of it
20:57:25 <oerjan> i think it has spots with \ escaped //\\ escaped \ escaped //\\ escaped something
20:57:34 <tswett> So, uh, _ is quoted \, = is quoted _, and # is quoted =. ///\\ is replaced with a triply quoted version of itself, followed by a doubly quoted backslash and a singly quoted backslash.
20:57:48 <oerjan> or wait, maybe the last was just //\ for a general token
20:59:48 <tswett> Er, no, remove one quotation level from what I just said.
21:00:48 <oerjan> well the code contains a \\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/ replacement
21:01:11 <tswett> So, the replacement for ///\\ ends with an unescaped backslash, doesn't it?
21:01:20 <oerjan> btw i distinguish quoting from escaping. quoting is prepending ///\\ while escaping is prepending \
21:01:47 <tswett> Okay, s/quote/escape/ in everything I said.
21:01:54 <oerjan> @show \\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/
21:01:54 <lambdabot> "\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/"
21:02:08 <oerjan> @read "\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/"
21:02:08 <lambdabot> Plugin `dummy' failed with: Prelude.read: no parse
21:02:25 <oerjan> > "\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/"
21:02:26 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at chara...
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21:02:43 <oerjan> there is something fishy here
21:02:58 <oerjan> oh wait the last / doesn't belong
21:03:05 <oerjan> @read "\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"
21:03:05 <lambdabot> Plugin `dummy' failed with: Prelude.read: no parse
21:03:13 <oerjan> > "\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"
21:03:15 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at chara...
21:03:41 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at chara...
21:04:23 <tswett> Clearly, we need @sssshow and @sssread commands.
21:05:03 <oerjan> @show \\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
21:05:03 <lambdabot> "\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"
21:05:41 <oerjan> this may not be helping
21:06:13 <oerjan> ^unesc \\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
21:06:13 <fungot> \\\/\\\/\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\
21:06:59 <oerjan> now imagine that in front of some arbitrary character c
21:07:08 <oerjan> \\\/\\\/\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\c
21:07:30 <oerjan> ^unesc \\\/\\\/\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\c
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21:09:05 <tswett> So ///\\c is replaced with a doubly escaped version of itself, followed by a singly quoted backslash, then a singly quoted c. So...
21:09:25 <FireFly> #esoteric is probably the only channel where you see people implement handy utility programs.. in brainfuck
21:09:29 <oerjan> um no ///\\c is replaced with a doubly escaped version of itself, period
21:09:58 <tswett> And how the Flynn–Fletcher does that help anything...
21:10:18 <oerjan> now you can copy it twice without losing data...
21:11:13 <tswett> How do you copy something, again. You stick a pair of slashes before it, and one after, and wait for it to be executed.
21:11:47 <tswett> Which, in this case, you can, of course, do twice without losing data.
21:13:21 <oerjan> to be more precise, you can first make two copies, then make a new copy of one of the copies. and the two versions will look _different_.
21:13:52 <oerjan> one will be quoted with ///\\, while one will be quoted with \/\/\/\\\\\
21:14:57 <oerjan> which means you can now do a substitution on just one of the copies, to replace its quoting with just \-escaping
21:15:34 <oerjan> _then_ you can copy/move the other version into a designated spot of that
21:16:15 <oerjan> while still losing no data, as that still remains ///\\ quoted
21:16:51 <oerjan> and finally you replace that remaining ///\\ with \/\/\/\\\\\ again.
21:17:16 <oerjan> at which point you will have constructed something which prints as the original program
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21:18:45 <oerjan> this is all very similar to the principle of all the looping programs since the second one made, except you construct something printable instead of something executable.
21:21:05 <oerjan> <_< any questions? >_>
21:22:45 <Arc_Koen> hmmmmm that was something about reversible brainfuck but I can't seem to remember what
21:25:52 <tswett> Yeah, isn't there some remarkably simple modification you can do to BF to make it reversible?
21:26:38 <tswett> Something like... make it so that brackets are entered if the value is 0 and skipped if the value is not 0.
21:26:44 <shachaf> oerjan: the guilting only works in PM.
21:32:07 <oerjan> tswett: um like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Reversible_Brainfuck you mean? *cough*
21:32:36 <oerjan> shachaf: what guilting?
21:32:49 <tswett> oerjan: yeah. That's exactly the same as what I just described, right?
21:32:50 <shachaf> oerjan: I don't know. elliott told me to tell you.
21:33:08 <oerjan> oh the /// links right
21:35:53 <Arc_Koen> wait, so it's possible to be turing-complete and reversible at the same time?
21:37:26 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: for turing machines themselves that's an old result
21:38:54 <oerjan> yes you can make turing machine tables that are reversible
21:39:45 <tswett> There are Turing machines that are both universal and reversible?
21:39:47 <kmc> also you can make an idealized reversible computer which uses no energy
21:39:55 <kmc> it's only when you want to forget stuff that you need to take in energy
21:39:55 <tswett> Getting rid of heat could be interesting.
21:40:40 <oerjan> for such a machine, the bit bucket is physically real :P
21:42:52 <kmc> also quantum computation is reversible
21:43:08 <kmc> except for making observations (?????? this is where i run out of knowledge)
21:43:47 <tswett> Under the many-worlds interpretation, that part's reversible, too.
21:44:10 <tswett> Given the talk about eigenratios that's happened, I'm pondering an assembly language that admits an extremely efficient self-interpreter.
21:44:18 <tswett> I guess it would be pretty easy.
21:44:50 <tswett> exec <register> - execute one instruction, using the memory pointed to by <register> as the register bank.
21:45:21 <tswett> But wait, that doesn't work. You could write a one-instruction infinite loop with that.
21:45:47 <oerjan> that is a problem how?
21:46:03 <tswett> Well, I think we should have an upper bound on the amount of time that executing a single instruction can take.
21:46:04 <olsner> jmp $ is also a one-instruction infinite loop
21:46:42 <tswett> olsner: yeah, true. But that one works by executing a single instruction infinitely many times. Each individual execution is finite.
21:47:00 <tswett> With this instruction, however, executing that one instruction, once, could take arbitrarily long.
21:47:37 <olsner> nah, it would just take one instruction time to update the pointed-to program counter and continue after the exec instruction?
21:49:14 <tswett> Well, suppose that $2 points at a piece of memory whose instruction pointer points at the exec instruction.
21:50:20 <tswett> Then if you tell the interpreter to exec $2, it will look up the instruction pointer at $2, load its pointee (which is exec $2), and execute exec $2, and in doing so, it will look up the instruction pointer at $2, and ...
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22:16:08 <tswett> Whelp, I've made a subleq self-interpreter. It works by copying parts of the interpretee into itself.
22:16:09 <zzo38> Can we make esolang that can program hardware instead of only software?
22:16:26 <tswett> I'm pretty sure it's impossible to write a subleq self-interpreter that doesn't do that.
22:16:54 <tswett> zzo38: those exist. Two-dimensional esolangs where all state is local.
22:20:44 <tswett> I think BackFlip is a good example.
22:21:21 <oerjan> never managed to make any real programs in that
22:21:49 <oerjan> well, real computation. of course it doesn't have io
22:23:19 <tswett> zzo38: you've heard of Wireworld, I assume?
22:29:27 <zzo38> tswett: I have heard and know about both BackFlip and Wireworld.
22:30:02 <zzo38> However, I mean making actual hardware gates from it.
22:32:23 <zzo38> Such as: discrete logic connected manually, CPLD (such as a JEDEC file), FPGA (such as AT40k bitstreams, since someone has documented their format), ASIC, compiling into a hardware description language, or something else.
22:39:44 <zzo38> But regardless, these are for digital electronics. What if, you make esolang for analog electronics?
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22:42:34 <Sgeo> Does Game of Life count as an esolang?
22:42:56 <zzo38> I don't know if it counts as a programming language at all, whether or not esoteric.
22:43:32 <tswett> The semantics of Proce are perhaps best defined in terms of analog electronics.
22:45:17 <zzo38> Can you make up a Proce->SPICE compiler, if such thing would be possible?
22:45:39 <shachaf> If such thing would be possible, then it would be possible.
22:45:47 <tswett> It's certainly possible, yes.
22:46:26 <tswett> Each signal is simply a wire. i! is an integrator, + is an adder, * is an amplifier, r! is a rectifier, and so on.
22:47:42 <Arc_Koen> Sgeo: game of life is turing complete :)
22:48:47 <zzo38> Yes, I saw once the turing machine in game of life.
22:49:12 <zzo38> I requires a large number of cells.
22:50:57 <Gregor> I don't think most people would consider Turing-completeness as necessary /or/ sufficient for the descriptor “programming language”
22:55:08 <tswett> Yeah, I guess I'd say that to be a language, the input has to consist of text.
22:56:14 <itidus21> the act of programming in such cases becomes loading the initial GoL cells, and uh.. afterwards im not quite sure
22:56:18 <tswett> ...Or speech or gestures.
22:57:49 <tswett> What if the input is an arbitrary real number, and the "language" is simply a continuous function R -> R?
22:57:57 <Sgeo> Is Smalltalk texty enough? What about where someone drags building blocks together?
22:58:17 <tswett> Could it be Turing-complete? Would it then be a language?
22:58:52 <Sgeo> GoL can be fitted to that definition
22:58:58 <tswett> I wonder if there's a Turing-completely dynamical system whose step function is a holomorphic function of the complex numbers.
22:59:18 <tswett> There are certainly languages for describing GoL patterns. Such languages would themselves probably be considered Turing-complete programming languages.
22:59:20 <Sgeo> With an isomorphism from boards with a finite number of live cells to real numbers
22:59:32 <zzo38> tswett: Is it possible to prove whether or not there is a Turing-completely dynamical system whose step function is a holomorphic function of the complex numbers?
22:59:47 <tswett> ais523: is there a Turing-complete dynamical system whose step function is a holomorphic function of the complex numbers? Thanks.
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23:00:15 <Sgeo> What's a holomorphic function?
23:00:17 <tswett> Uhh, make that a computable function.
23:00:28 <tswett> Sgeo: a differentiable one.
23:00:41 <tswett> Which, in the complex numbers, is the same thing as a smooth one.
23:00:49 <tswett> Which I think is the same thing as an analytic one?
23:01:25 <tswett> Differentiable = holomorphic = analytic, for functions of the complex numbers. According to Wikipedia.
23:01:37 <tswett> The Mandelbrot set definitely looks like the sort of thing that could be computational.
23:01:51 <Sgeo> Is there a way to make a smooth function which at integer inputs matches a GoL function?
23:02:15 <tswett> There's a way to make a smooth function which, at integer inputs, matches any function Z -> R whatsoever.
23:02:25 <tswett> Wait, that's not true.
23:02:39 <tswett> Well, maybe it is. But in any case.
23:02:50 <tswett> It's definitely possible for any bounded function Z -> R.
23:05:06 <tswett> If F : Z -> R, then f(x) = sum_{n in Z} F(n) sinc(x - n) ought to coincide with it.
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01:11:29 <zzo38> I think MZM layer mode is the same as PC textmode format (except for the header).
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04:35:47 <itidus21> <zzo38> I requires a large number of cells. -- millions
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04:40:54 <Sgeo> Ah, just wikipedia'd it
04:47:04 <itidus21> which operations are expected to be more efficient by internalising computer data?
04:50:13 <itidus21> that is to say, given a pleasant autumn day and a garden by a creek, can a computer's data being uploaded to a human brain somehow improve the ability for a human to sit under a tree and listen to the birds sing?
04:51:31 * pikhq notes that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depressive_disorder is the worst thing
04:55:16 <itidus21> ostensibly my point is that humans do not need man-made augmentation except on a case by case basis for medical conditions
04:56:47 <itidus21> the only reason for this dark alley of research to exist is for profit
04:58:04 <pikhq> But the only real distinction between direct augmentation of the human form and technology is the efficiency.
04:58:21 <pikhq> And the human form, honestly, has many faults.
04:58:55 <pikhq> It is fucking *buggy*.
04:58:56 <itidus21> if you find a way to harm people in a way that they are willing to be harmed and make it legal, you will invaribaly maximize profits
04:59:30 <itidus21> i don't know why but this rule seems to hold quite well
04:59:49 <pikhq> But is human augmentation harmful?
05:00:13 <itidus21> pikhq: the only thing more faulty than non-man-made things is man-made things :D
05:01:01 <pikhq> Dude, we have organs that are only notable because they fuck up and kill you.
05:01:12 <pikhq> Speaking of: we are not just mortal, but short-lived.
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05:01:41 <itidus21> i certainly don't want to be immortal
05:01:59 <pikhq> Do you wish to live right now? Do you wish to live tomorrow?
05:02:36 <pikhq> Do you anticipate any day where you will not want to live the *next* day?
05:03:01 <pikhq> If you answered "yes", then induction says you want to live forever.
05:03:24 <itidus21> my perspectives will change with me
05:03:53 <pikhq> So, you are telling me you personally anticipate waking up one day and deciding you don't want to live the next day?
05:04:45 <itidus21> i wish the immortals all the best
05:05:00 <itidus21> as to your question... well.........
05:05:19 <pikhq> I highly doubt you actually, genuinely believe this. You may well believe *that* you believe it.
05:06:16 <pikhq> But I doubt you will one day decide "y'know, I want to die", barring mental disorders (another bug in the human form, FWIW)
05:06:37 <itidus21> wait until the next world war..
05:08:35 <itidus21> to say that there is no point to living forever would not be really making the point strong enough
05:11:33 <pikhq> But why would there be no point to living forever?
05:11:39 <pikhq> Modulo heat death.
05:11:52 <pikhq> Heat death of the universe kinda does make living forever pointless.
05:12:05 <pikhq> A universe actually devoid of everything is pointless.
05:12:52 <itidus21> it is, regardless of how one can turn about and say how bout you die now
05:13:10 <pikhq> But why should it be ok to erase a sentient being from existence?
05:13:15 <itidus21> its not a sin in any religion etc
05:13:35 <pikhq> If it's not evil to die, why is it universally frowned upon to cause death?
05:13:36 <itidus21> killing is different kettle of fish
05:13:44 <pikhq> And, seriously, argument from religion?
05:14:03 <itidus21> its not immoral or unethical to die that i know of
05:14:53 <pikhq> Religion would have you think the world was created by a benevolent and omnipotent being. A world where pain and suffering is typical of life.
05:17:19 <itidus21> humm.. i wonder if this notion of dying being subject to ethical judgement has its own movement
05:17:36 <itidus21> it surely would.. im not even going to bother checking
05:22:02 <pikhq> Furthermore, can I ask why most religions are based in the concept that mortality *is in fact undesirable*? Religions themselves may not be true, but it certainly says much that they were mostly invented as ways of saying "no, you are immortal!"
05:22:28 <Sgeo> I think that what makes the most sense would be immortality, with the option of suicide.
05:22:30 <itidus21> if i am immortal, then that will take care of itself
05:24:30 <Sgeo> But, I can't imagine there being a limit to human creativity, and the things I can learn and understand, for.... a few million years at least?
05:24:35 <Sgeo> Well, certainly at least a few thousand
05:24:57 <itidus21> well... humans will probably stop being humans eventually
05:24:58 <pikhq> Sgeo: There's a whole lightcone to explore.
05:25:33 <itidus21> for better or worse, with or without space travel, assuming we are subject to evolutionary processes
05:26:01 <pikhq> itidus21: We shape our reality much faster than evolution could.
05:26:48 <pikhq> We have already created, in this conversation, more reality than evolution could in thousands of years.
05:26:55 <pikhq> s/reality/information/
05:27:39 <itidus21> my thoughts on efficiency are that basically, we need a clever dictator to make things efficient
05:27:54 <itidus21> instead of relying on order from chaos
05:28:41 <itidus21> it doesn't work economically though.. im not sure if having a dictator can help in that regard
05:28:57 <pikhq> An omnipotent benevolent one, perhaps.
05:29:02 <pikhq> ... Not that that's likely. :)
05:29:19 <itidus21> you-- you will mine metals from underneath that rainforest
05:29:31 <itidus21> and you... you will build circuits out of those metals
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05:32:22 <itidus21> and.. this dictator would make sure all plugs were compatible
05:32:40 <itidus21> there would be no regional data formats, no regional plug standards, no proprietry formats
05:34:15 <itidus21> and if this is not comfortable, then maybe efficiency itself is the problem
05:36:22 <itidus21> there would be no possessions, no rights, etc. simply people efficiently doing what the dictator says
05:37:09 <Sgeo> pikhq, Friendly AI?
05:37:32 <Sgeo> Well, I guess that would be just near-omniscient and extremely-potent
05:37:46 <pikhq> Sgeo: Sufficient, IME.
05:39:23 <Sgeo> You have experience with friendly AIs?
05:39:25 <itidus21> like, the development of the png standard (i wonder how many 1000s of man hours involved in all the paperwork around png) is partially a workaround to gif
05:40:01 <itidus21> so rather than... trying to make it more efficient to code work-arounds... it may be more efficient to eliminate workarounds
05:41:27 <pikhq> Sgeo: Well, no, as none exist
05:41:38 <Sgeo> So what did you mean by IME?
05:41:47 <pikhq> Sgeo: In my estimation.
05:42:12 <pikhq> I used word wrong, sorry
05:42:17 <itidus21> like, in my system... tomorrow every piece of source code would be uploaded to a giant open source database
05:42:34 <itidus21> but it would be quite a mess.. im not sure how they would clean it up
05:44:08 <itidus21> it seems inefficient for the collective source coding of humanity to have so much redundancy
05:44:19 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
05:45:30 <itidus21> i think if given the choice, most would prefer to have access to the worlds source code rather than some kind of surgery
05:45:54 <itidus21> maybe thats oversimplifying it.. i don't know
06:05:21 <zzo38> Dictatorship is certainly more efficient, but I do not think that necessarily makes it better than others.
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06:42:53 * pikhq notes that feeling like a worthless human being sucks
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07:05:48 <itidus21> pikhq: these things that suck.. im starting to wonder if you are experiencing them
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07:10:41 <itidus21> in any case, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0
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10:37:10 <zzo38> I am trying to figure out how another program can detect these .NSF music is finished, by using cheat finder in VirtuaNES (VirtuaNES does allow the cheat finder to be used with NSFs too!)
10:39:31 <itidus21> zzo38: although there is ps3, 3ds, wii, xbox360, modern pc, ps vita, i think NES is something beautiful.
10:40:27 <itidus21> it embodies a set of constraints for multimedia computer applications i think
10:40:36 <zzo38> It seems like it is working. In three files I have tested so far (all made by the same person, using FamiTracker), $0211 is 1 while the music is playing and 0 when it stops, at least seem to.
10:41:08 <zzo38> itidus21: I think they make modern systems way too complicated.
10:41:37 <itidus21> well, one thing modern systems are good for is using the NES more efficiently
10:41:50 <zzo38> It is possible to make it useful and powerful without too much complicated, and that is one thing I intend to make.
10:42:39 <itidus21> suddenly we don't need any carts.. we can have the entire software library of nes as zip files or similar
10:43:35 <zzo38> Yes and you can make your own, too. The difficulty is if you want to make custom mappers, but I am designing a file format which would allow that too.
10:44:09 <itidus21> the trouble with the custom stuff is theres no limits on it
10:44:30 <itidus21> like you could have an entire pc as part of the cartridge
10:45:06 <zzo38> Yes you could, but it would be very complicated if you did that. Simple discrete logic would be simpler, and the mapper codes for such things would be smaller.
10:45:43 <itidus21> who am i kidding i dont quite know what mappers are or how they work etc..
10:45:45 <zzo38> DotFami format probably wouldn't even have commands to do such complicated things as an entire PC, anyways.
10:46:55 <itidus21> i am not actually that interested in emulation.
10:47:18 <zzo38> DotFami only allows up to 256 components, although the individual components may be a bit complicated. I intend that it can represent all the iNES mappers, as well as NSF, and simple custom discrete logic mappers.
10:47:30 <itidus21> because trifling matters like needing a 3ghz machine to emulate a 25mhz snes or such seems completely absurd
10:50:26 <itidus21> so theres things i want to do to nes roms which seems ridiculous to most.
10:51:27 <itidus21> i want to rewrite a game's internals, but present the same end-user experience as an orginal nes rom
10:53:50 <itidus21> i would have to concede to not knowing the exact nes palette
10:55:08 <itidus21> but assuming an approximation of the nes palette, i would abandon the 6502 code and rewrite the graphics using calls to blit functions
10:57:04 <zzo38> It does not have an exact palette; instead, the high 2 bits specify the high and low voltage levels, and the low 4 bits specify the phase, and these are combined to make the color. Color $0x specifies a blacker than black level, so $0D is blacker than black and may mess up the display of some TV sets (use $1D for the proper black).
10:58:06 <zzo38> Colors $20 and $30 are the same because $x0 uses the constant high level ($0x uses the constant low level), and $2x and $3x have the same high level.
10:58:17 <itidus21> as for sound, if the game had a finite set of sounds, i will store them in formats like .wav, .mp3, .midi
10:58:50 <itidus21> and.. as for how the music on nes actually works... well....
10:59:03 <zzo38> Or you could use .ogg .flac .it whatever. Or, use MIDI and have your own MIDI synthesizer.
10:59:05 <itidus21> i just don't know the best approach
10:59:27 <zzo38> I know how the music on NES works.
10:59:34 <itidus21> the goal would be to reproduce all the sounds in the game with maximum efficiency
11:05:14 <itidus21> ... i think what i want is to replace the primary cpu aspect of NES with native pc code
11:05:41 <itidus21> but maintainng the constraints on sound, graphics and controller input
11:06:35 <itidus21> VGA becomes famicom FGA... for obvious reasons
11:08:50 <itidus21> i wish i bought soft drink today
11:09:54 <fizzie> But liquids are (pretty much) incompressible! How does it work!
11:10:39 <itidus21> i explode a bomb inside the drink
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14:29:57 <Arc_Koen> so I've been thinking, is it possible to include '--' at all in a Maze program, without provoking an error?
14:32:44 <atriq> I'm not familiar enough with Maze to answer
14:33:24 <Arc_Koen> where ## are walls, .. are "paths" where the cars can drive
14:33:41 <Arc_Koen> and '--' is supposed to "transform into a wall after a car has driven over it"
14:34:18 <Arc_Koen> but the thing is, cars are supposed to "guess" what way they are have to go, using only walls
14:34:34 <Arc_Koen> (that is, they are not supposed to "need" instructions to tell them to turn)
14:35:51 <Arc_Koen> so I had been assuming that any tile a car can drive over either contains an instruction to tell the car what to do (such as "go up"), or exactly two of the adjacent tiles are walls
14:36:24 <Arc_Koen> so, of the four adjacent tiles, two are walls, one is the path the car comes from, and one the fourth is the path where the car must go
14:36:50 <Arc_Koen> but I don't see how this count (2 walls + 2 paths) can be respected with '--'
14:37:05 <Arc_Koen> since -- is a path that becomes a wall
14:37:25 <Arc_Koen> (and there are no "walls that become paths" to balance it)
14:38:54 <Arc_Koen> I'll write that on the talk page
14:45:33 <atriq> I've slightly damaged the screen
14:45:43 <atriq> The screen itself is fine
14:45:48 <atriq> The right hinge, though...
14:46:05 <atriq> Possibly qualifies as a lethal bladed weapon
14:49:13 <atriq> More a tiny knife with a sheaf attached to the handle
14:49:23 <atriq> And the handle and sheaf are huge and work as a computer
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15:34:20 <atriq> "Works best in Safari/Chrome" is not a feature.
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16:31:32 <atriq> I wonder if I could run a mile...
16:32:49 <atriq> Google Maps thinks that if I run a mile I'd end up at the Fox
16:37:19 <fizzie> And doesn't it kind of depend which direction you run to?
16:38:26 <atriq> If I ran the other way, I'd end up about half way to Dilston
16:38:52 <fizzie> I could run a mile southeast and end up at a (horse) race track.
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16:42:23 <fizzie> Or a bit over a mile to the west to end up at the local Mormon chruch temple.
16:46:47 <atriq> Of course, I don't drink, and I'm too young to buy alcohol
16:49:20 <atriq> So running to the pub would be a tad useless
16:49:29 <Arc_Koen> that's a shame. you can't hitchhike vogon ships if you haven't had the proper amount of beer from a pub just before!
16:51:37 <fizzie> The temple is only open to members, so running there would be quite useless too.
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17:43:53 <oerjan> fizzie: i'm sure they'd be quite happy to consider your application
17:44:46 <fizzie> I don't know, they seemed to have quite a lot of requirements.
17:46:04 <fizzie> It's not even enough to be a member, you need some kind of a "Temple Recommend".
17:46:52 <fizzie> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_(LDS_Church)#Entrance_requirements and especially the "Worthiness interview" list.
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17:50:13 <fizzie> They did have that "Open House" thing when it was built recently-ish, I remember seeing something about that.
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18:21:03 <zzo38> The cheat finder is not only for cheating, isn't it?
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18:58:31 <Sgeo> Fun fact: WorldsPlayer requires JRE6. JRE7 won't work
19:01:28 <kmc> that's news you can use
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19:24:57 <Sgeo> Might be useful for Phantom_Hoover if he ever decides to join us to see what the fuss was about
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19:32:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Dear god no, I don't want to get sucked into your weird nightmare.
19:38:29 <Sgeo> Most of it isn't a nightmare
19:38:45 <Sgeo> In fact, there's a world somewhere with a tardis, it's kind of fun
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19:59:20 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, you can always just stick to the Worlds.com worlds, the only nightmare there is BowieWorld
20:00:03 <Sgeo> Oh, and BlackHillsForest and BurkittsvilleDinner
20:00:22 <Phantom_Hoover> No good! How can I feel safe unless there's someone manning the walls between the safety of worlds.com and the nightmares?
20:00:42 <Phantom_Hoover> The fact that you just listed three nightmares that are within this supposed haven does not fill me with confidence.
20:01:28 <Sgeo> Well, aren't BlackHillsForest and BurkittsvilelDinner named after/promotion materials for horror films?
20:01:38 <Sgeo> So, if you see anything named after a horror film, just avoid it
20:02:33 <Sgeo> Oh, and the basement in AnimalHouse.
20:02:52 <Sgeo> (Which connects to the bathroom stalls of I forget which, it's like a Club)
20:03:29 <Sgeo> Everything in WorldsCenter except possibly FunHouse is safe.
20:04:12 <Sgeo> And I do emphasize the "possibly"
20:04:21 <Sgeo> It's more weird and colorful than anything scary.
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20:05:39 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so I'm safe in worlds.com unless I visit any of the places that aren't safe, and I'm definitely safe in worldscentre unless I visit the unsafe place.
20:07:10 <Sgeo> The one possibly unsafe place is marked as "VIP", which is only for paying people (although there are ways around that, and you start off with a free trial. But still, it's market)
20:07:20 <Sgeo> And I think it's the only such entire pod in WorldsCenter
20:07:29 <Sgeo> I should note that WorldsCenter is relatively boring
20:08:16 <Sgeo> This user-made tower may be safe and interesting, I think
20:08:55 <Sgeo> Well, maybe. But the portals means you can see into each room and decide if you want to explore it or not.
20:10:16 <fizzie> The ubiquitous boredom/safety tradeoff.
20:10:58 <Sgeo> Oh, the default world, GroundZero, is safe, unless you deliberately walk through a solid wall.
20:11:03 <Sgeo> Can't do it by accident.
20:12:03 <fizzie> Personally I sometimes have trouble walking through solid walls even purposefully.
20:13:00 <Sgeo> Not much until you walk too far and when you do you're put into a green cave.
20:13:31 <Sgeo> I am working under the assumption that you are scared to death by green caves.
20:14:33 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, helpful tip: don't do this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAOooKkWp4w
20:16:45 <fizzie> "Green cave" is some kind of a slang term for something unspeakable, right?
20:16:48 <Sgeo> There is an Escher tribute in the tower.
20:17:00 <Sgeo> It's very clearly marked as an Escher tribute
20:19:22 <Sgeo> I'm going to go ahead and call the tower "safe"
20:19:24 <Sgeo> Weird, but safe.
20:19:33 <Sgeo> Although funhouse is probably safer
20:20:12 <Sgeo> Oh, Skypod in WorldsCenter isn't safe if you're scared of heights.
20:20:30 <Sgeo> You can't actually fall though, there are invisible walls.
20:22:18 <Sgeo> Hmm, there's a user-made world called "LSD Dream Emulator"
20:22:51 <Sgeo> Oh, it's based off a PS game called "LSD: Dream Emulator"
20:24:03 <Sgeo> It's actually extrodinarily boring.
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20:25:19 <fizzie> I think I saw a reference to that somewhere recently.
20:26:09 <olsner> that staring at goats movie is funny
20:26:18 <fizzie> I feel kinda ill when I see graphical glitches in computer games and such. (Also scared of encountering them in real life.) I wonder if this is common?
20:26:49 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, it's even funnier if you read the book and know which parts are actually completely true.
20:26:50 <olsner> graphical glitches in real life would be properly scary
20:27:00 <Phantom_Hoover> (i.e. everything that isn't actually part of the plot)
20:27:04 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: oh, is any of it true at all?
20:27:17 <Sgeo> Oh, I think I was supposed to do something, I cheated and now things got weird.
20:27:25 <Sgeo> fizzie, in that case, WorldsPlayer is not for you.
20:27:31 <Sgeo> Things get weird sometimes.
20:27:47 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, I'd honestly be hard-pressed to remember any of the crazy psy-ops stunts that weren't.
20:28:20 <Phantom_Hoover> The characters are largely fictionalised and frequently made from 2 or 3 amalgamated real people, but the experiments and everything were all real.
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20:29:23 <fizzie> olsner: Yes, but when I see them in a computer, I get the feeling that it's only a matter of time there'll be some out of it, too.
20:30:15 <Phantom_Hoover> If you're seeing dead pixels you should see an optician, they can fix that.
20:30:40 <Sgeo> Maiko Girls Come Come Everybody.
20:30:48 <Sgeo> ^^the name of an object in this World.
20:30:54 <olsner> fizzie: sometimes when I'm watching things full screen on the monitor I'll try to make them even more full screen (full field of vision?)
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20:31:22 <olsner> but alas, the other setting is windowed
20:31:50 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Just, you know, generally. Things clipping through other things, or deforming grotesquely because of some kind of model mishap.
20:32:52 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: that book is now on my list of things to read
20:33:40 <fizzie> Or physics problems, things moving awfully fast or weirdly.
20:34:15 <Sgeo> fizzie, would weird geometry count?
20:34:52 <Sgeo> You go down a hall, turn right, go down hall, turn right, go down hall, turn right, go down hall, turn right, you're nowhere near where you started
20:35:28 <fizzie> I don't know about that. It doesn't sound as bad.
20:36:39 <Sgeo> Oh, I think the only "scary" place in BowieWorld is the Garden.
20:36:54 <Sgeo> It's a bunch of disembodied hands that say weird things and fly up when you click them
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20:37:43 <fizzie> Also, is it just me that had real trouble handling the frankenturrets in Portal 2?
20:39:11 <fizzie> I'm glad it wasn't just me.
20:39:59 <Phantom_Hoover> And the noise, they made, I remember that was particularly awful.
20:40:13 <fizzie> I always had to throw them far away from me when letting go.
20:41:24 <Sgeo> It's rather easy to walk through walls in Worlds, but also something that needs to be done deliberalely.
20:41:37 <Sgeo> Some of the weirder things in the Worlds.com worlds only occur to people who walk through walls
20:41:42 <olsner> some people seem to think frankenturrets are cute
20:42:05 <fizzie> olsner: There are all kinds of freako-sickos in the world, certainly.
20:42:39 <Sgeo> For example: In AnimalHouse, if you venture onto the street from the front yard, you may be attacked by floating eyeballs, and end up in an attic.
20:42:50 <fizzie> "The developer commentary notes their withdrawing into a cube was initially just to make them be cubical when picked up, but it was so cute they added shaking animations and wide-eyed reactions to the turret to make the player sympathize with their plight."
20:42:55 <Sgeo> But the front yard is fenced in, can't get to the street from the front yard by walking normally.
20:43:22 <fizzie> I sympathize all right, but I was even more creeped out and tried to have as little to do with them as possible.
20:43:57 <Sgeo> The eyeballs got me.
20:44:09 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, you're sure you don't want to get floating eyeballs to attack you?
20:44:28 <Sgeo> For some reason, this attic has the Venus de Milo
20:45:17 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, no. But you only see the nightmare if you walk through a wall, or a different nightmare if you head into the basement.
20:45:46 <Sgeo> And basement isn't that much of a nightmare, it's just creepy red with weird geometry.
20:46:14 <Sgeo> There's one part of it where you may end up seeing yourself.
20:49:44 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, just to be sure of something: You don't consider Brittney Spears to be scary, do you? Because there's a Brittney Spears world.
20:58:33 <Sgeo> There are definitely interesting non-scary places to explore
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21:31:08 <Sgeo> There's a class in worlds.jar called ArmyOfZombies.
21:32:41 <olsner> they should've obfuscated
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21:57:31 <kmc> the CEO and the chief technical architect just locked themselves in a conference room for an hour to figure out... what kind of trash cans to buy
22:00:16 <shachaf> kmc: Someone mentioned https://csawctf.poly.edu/ in another channel.
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23:03:03 <kmc> "Yeah, we've pondered creating a /usr/bin/python\r -> python symlink"
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23:47:24 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, does a Halloween-themed theme part count as a nightmare?
23:48:00 <Sgeo> Although I should note that there are clowns.
23:49:15 <Sgeo> The rides appear to move your camera, leaving your body behind.
23:55:04 <kmc> i think web dev is secretly a great field for programming language nerds
23:57:06 <kmc> FP techniques are widely accepted in Javascript, largely because they're the only way to abstract and stay sane
23:57:23 <kmc> and metaprogramming is also widely accepted, even if the forms it takes are somewhat nasty
23:57:46 <kmc> and the typical web project has code in a number of languages, so it's an easier sell to introduce one more
23:57:56 <kmc> compared to "this is a Java shop, why are you even considering using something that isn't Java"
23:58:12 <zzo38> JavaScript is not really such a bad programming language, but its use with web pages is pretty bad in my opinion.
23:58:40 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, this water ride cuts through FunHouse
23:59:00 <Sgeo> And goes inside a shark
23:59:02 <kmc> you can use whatever language you like on the backend
23:59:23 <kmc> and there are a lot of DSL-like things
00:00:26 <Sgeo> And there's a bit at the end where it takes you into a "spooky" room
00:00:33 <kwertii> kmc: the flipside of web dev is that the reason you can get away with all that is because you will be told, "this must be done in 2 weeks, we didn't spec it properly, we're already over budget, so we don't care how you make it work, just do it"
00:00:55 <kmc> that really depends on the company
00:03:11 <kwertii> sure, there's a lot of variance
00:04:07 <kmc> i'm not sure it's more common with web dev than other areas of programming
00:04:10 <kmc> i don't have the experience to know
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00:06:08 <kwertii> I think web dev is the most publicly visible (to non-technical people) segment of programming, and that tends to attract a whole lot of people and money who are utterly disinterested in technical details. If you have a spot at a good firm, it's fine, but if you're trying to freelance, there's a LOT of low-end work to wade through.
00:06:40 <kmc> yeah, i am not talking about freelancing
00:07:35 <kwertii> if we're going to say "it's a great field for language nerds if you're at a good firm"... well, that could apply to any field
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00:07:47 <kmc> not really
00:08:12 <kmc> a great embedded systems company might be a great place to work, but you won't get to use much of anything other than C
00:08:29 <kmc> looooooooool
00:08:42 <kwertii> sure, with some exceptions
00:09:10 <kwertii> but if you're writing video games or word processors or music sequencer apps, there's no reason you couldn't do so in <favorite language> if you were at an enlightened firm
00:09:21 <kmc> i'm saying web developers have greater freedom to choose language, and also better "typical" languages, than (say) kernel programmers, high-frequency traders, or enterprise business software developers
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00:10:06 <kmc> not that C is a bad language for kernel development (that's a different argument anyway), but it doesn't scratch that PL nerd itch
00:10:10 <kwertii> Perhaps I'm biased, since I'm a web developer who has been trying to convince people to do a project in Lisp for the better part of a decade now :)
00:11:00 <kwertii> the reply is always: "Sure, Lisp is cool and all, but if you get hit by a bus, who will pick up where you left off? Do it in Rails and we can find 5 million people tomorrow."
00:11:21 <kmc> that's a valid argument
00:11:57 <kwertii> a few tiers down from that, there's a whole mass of "let's hire overseas programmers to do it in PHP for $15 an hour" web dev
00:11:57 <kmc> but you still get to use ruby, javascript, and maybe C++, every day if you like
00:12:02 <itidus21> another variant of that argument might be, but if you start being annoying who will replace you when we fire you?
00:12:32 <itidus21> maybe "start being annoying" is wrong
00:12:33 <kmc> https://twitter.com/cperciva/status/247848282880106496
00:12:44 <kwertii> itidus21: well, no business should have a single point of failure. I agree with the principle.
00:13:05 <itidus21> kwertii: anyway i don't care about your employers >:)
00:13:41 <kmc> some businesses inevitably have a single point of failure
00:13:44 <kmc> startups have many
00:13:58 <kwertii> itidus21: wasn't asking you to care, not sure where you're going with that
00:14:29 <kwertii> kmc: of course. and the process of developing the business should include reducing the single points of failure to the greatest extent possible, to minimize risk for all involved
00:15:04 <kmc> yes and no
00:15:16 <kwertii> kmc: There are a few enlightened people in high freq trading. One I can think of off the top of my head, Jane Street Capital, works mainly in OCaml
00:15:19 <kmc> by starting a company or joining a startup, you are deliberately taking on risk
00:15:41 <kmc> i'm not comfortable calling the people who use the languages i like more "enlightened"
00:15:54 <kmc> my point is about flexibility, not about one language over another
00:16:16 <kwertii> whatever you want to call it :)
00:16:35 <kmc> i mean the most popular language in web dev is also one of the worst languages to ever become popular
00:17:37 <kwertii> taking on risk is inevitable, but there are many degrees of risk. a company built around <obscure language> is a lot riskier than a company built around C, PHP, or Ruby, all else being the same. it's just much harder to find staff who can comprehend obscure languages.
00:18:06 <kmc> you don't need to convince me of that
00:18:29 <kmc> my point about risk was a tangent from the PL discussion, i did not mean to imply that you should use the most obscure language for your startup
00:18:43 <kmc> (there are some benefits to using a somewhat obscure language, though, as paul graham pointed out)
00:18:55 <kmc> (dude's kind of a blowhard but he makes some good points from time to time)
00:19:33 <kwertii> if PG were right, there'd be a lot more startups built on Lisp, and there'd be VC firms specializing in Lisp. it seems that language choice is a rather minor factor in the massive number of variables that go into a startup, though.
00:19:44 <kmc> i agree with that too
00:20:00 <kmc> i'm talking about http://paulgraham.com/pypar.html
00:20:13 <kmc> which is not about lisp circa 2012 but about python circa 2004
00:20:22 <kwertii> yeah, I've read it, and most of the other pg essays
00:21:12 <kwertii> I was referring to the other essay where he talks about what a huge competitive advantage it was to be using Common Lisp at ViaWeb in the 90s
00:21:31 <kmc> yeah, that is massively over-fitted
00:21:56 <kmc> i'm sure that Lisp is a competitive advantage over vintage C++ for web dev
00:22:17 <itidus21> i guess that it could be painful for someone who can code in lisp well to be forced to code in c
00:22:36 <itidus21> and be daydreaming about what it would be like if they could use lisp
00:22:54 <kmc> and i think he is extrapolating too much from a success in a very early stage of the web
00:23:06 <kwertii> I'd love to have the resources to start a web shop on CL or Clojure. The average quality level of the programmers is much higher, as per the python essay. But it's much, much harder to scale. You (apparently) get a better return on capital with 100 mid-skill Ruby programmers than you'd get from the 40 Lisp programmers you could hire for that money.
00:23:17 <kmc> basically there were no good web dev languages at the time, and he kinda hacked one together in lisp (er, "on lisp"? ;)
00:23:31 <kmc> today there are many cood web dev languages, ergo no need for Lisp in particular
00:23:35 <kmc> many good*
00:23:51 <kwertii> plus it'll take you years to find 40 Lisp programmers, but you can get 100 mediocre Ruby programmers in a few months
00:24:22 <kmc> i think choosing Python for a company in 2004 would have been a really good idea
00:24:32 <kmc> not just because it was semi-obscure -- but because it became much popular within a few years
00:24:37 <kmc> that's the have your cake and eat it too scenario
00:24:54 <kwertii> that's what I'm thinking / hoping for Clojure over the next few years
00:25:16 <kmc> you start out with the high quality programmers, and then by the time you need to scale you can do so
00:25:29 <kmc> obviously this is tricky to time ;)
00:28:07 <kwertii> of still-used languages, only FORTRAN is older (if you're not counting assembly as a language)
00:29:26 <kmc> a lot of people learn a little tiny bit of "lisp"
00:29:31 <kmc> few use it for any real projects, though
00:30:15 <itidus21> maybe modern computer power will help
00:30:26 <kwertii> Clojure (a Lisp for the JVM) is starting to become popular
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00:31:55 <kwertii> I think the issue is that most programmers can't grasp what makes Lisp different from other languages. they just think it's an imperative language with a funny parentheses based syntax. so they say, "eh, so what" and move on.
00:32:13 <kmc> it annoys me to no end how people can't get past the parentheses
00:32:21 <kwertii> also, the range of libraries available for Common Lisp and Scheme has been quite poor compared to (say) Java or C.
00:32:38 <itidus21> maybe when enough time passes, someone will write a book to guide peopel
00:32:42 <kwertii> the CL community is openly hostile to newcomers, which doesn't help.
00:32:46 <itidus21> lisp hasnt been around long enough
00:32:58 <kmc> even the advocates of lisp focus way too much on syntax (omg Lisp has none!)
00:33:01 <kmc> which is a lie btw
00:33:09 <kmc> every special form constitutes syntax
00:33:33 <kmc> is it (let ((x 3) (y 4)) ...) or (let (x 3 y 4) ...)? well, CL and Scheme differ on this point, and that is a syntactic difference
00:33:42 <itidus21> oh, open hostility to newcomers... now this seems to be more likely part of the cause for lisp obscurity.. maybe they enjoy obscurity
00:34:20 <itidus21> i dont think a world in which lisp was coopted by the mainstream would be much fun for anyone
00:34:25 <shachaf> kmc: Is it foo(name=blah, contents=blam) or foo(title=blah, body=blam)?
00:34:44 <shachaf> Library X and library Y in Python differ on that, and that's a syntactic difference.
00:34:52 <itidus21> foo(name(blah) (contents(blah)))
00:34:56 <kwertii> kmc: in that sense, every macro you write introduces new syntax. I think the point of the "no syntax" argument is rather that everything is an S-expression
00:35:01 <shachaf> Anyway that's a silly argument.
00:35:25 <shachaf> You can define syntax in a way that lisp has a lot of it, or not a lot of it, and it won't change anything about lisp.
00:35:35 <kwertii> kmc: as opposed to the 20-odd special syntax arrangements in Algol-derived languages - foo + bar; versus foo++; versus foo(bar); etc
00:35:54 <kmc> kwertii: sure but S-expressions are only one of the layers of what i'd call syntax
00:36:09 <kmc> if Lisp is only S-expressions then Lisp is only a data language (like XML) and not a programming language
00:36:16 <kmc> you have to say what the token 'defun' means and what the token 'let' means and such
00:36:20 <kwertii> kmc: I'd call those things you mentioned "semantics" rather than syntax
00:36:20 <kmc> shachaf is right of course
00:36:40 <kmc> see i think the difference between (let ((x 3) (y 4)) ...) and (let (x 3 y 4) ...) is obviously a syntactic one
00:37:51 <kwertii> kmc: totally semantics. the syntax of both is just atoms and lists.
00:38:15 <kmc> this is an arbitrary difference of opinion
00:38:16 <shachaf> The syntax of booth "foo + bar" and "foo++" is just characters!
00:39:00 <kwertii> kmc: it's arbitrary in some sense, but these terms have been kind of well defined in linguistics and comp sci already
00:39:06 <kwertii> though you're right, the line is not always clear
00:39:20 <kmc> right, but many computer scientists include abstract syntax in the definition of syntax
00:39:36 <kwertii> shachaf: yeah, and that's why you need ridiculously complicated parsers to tokenize a language like that and make ... an S-tree graph out of it
00:40:02 <shachaf> kwertii: I think "C syntax -> AST" is a much simpler transformation than "AST -> optimized machine code"
00:41:09 <shachaf> Anyway this is a silly argument, like I said.
00:41:11 <kwertii> point is, C/whatever-language syntax is just a set of transformations on an s-exp tree. if you call those transformations "the syntax of C", then you can see where people come up with "Lisp has no syntax" (which isn't strictly true, but that's where it comes from)
00:41:26 <kmc> it's all just functions on the natural numbers
00:41:30 <shachaf> If you want to say that lisp "has no syntax", fine. If you want to say that it "has syntax", fine.
00:41:53 <itidus21> what if i want to say it has syntax and syntax?
00:42:04 <shachaf> You can say that too, itidus21.
00:42:17 <shachaf> itidus21 has a special exemption such that he/she/it can say whatever he/she/it wants.
00:42:25 <kmc> i would say that Lisp has three layers of syntax where most languages have two (lexical and parse tree)
00:42:40 * shachaf should dedicate his life to the noble cause of converting arguments about words to either nothing or arguments about meaning.
00:42:56 <kmc> in particular, people like syntax to be something static, and reserve "semantics" for runtime behavior
00:43:20 <kmc> and I know that CL does have some notion of compile time versus run time
00:43:55 <kwertii> shachaf: you plan to get a philosophy degree? :)
00:44:06 <kwertii> shachaf: I have one. it's not worth the trouble
00:44:13 <kmc> it seems weird to say that we have no idea whether we should write (let ((x 3)) ...) or (let (x 3) ...) until runtime
00:44:29 <shachaf> kwertii: Philosophists spend way too much time arguing about things that aren't meaning. :-(
00:44:39 <kmc> shachaf: I think everything is really arguments about words
00:44:48 <shachaf> kwertii: Raymond Smullyan is a good philosophist, though.
00:44:55 <kwertii> shachaf: they spend plenty of time bickering over trivial distinctions of meaning between obscure technical terms that only 50 people in the entire world care about.
00:45:00 <lambdabot> SaulGorn says: A formalist is one who cannot understand a theory unless it is meaningless.
00:45:15 <kwertii> shachaf: I love Raymond Smullyan! Never met anyone who's heard of him, though, and Taoism is laughed out of the room in most academic phil depts in the US.
00:45:26 <itidus21> i downloaded some of his books
00:45:28 <kmc> now you have met at least two of us
00:45:39 <itidus21> i found him on the wiki page of american taoists
00:45:41 <shachaf> kwertii: I don't care for philosophy departments much.
00:45:52 <shachaf> kmc: Have you heard of Raymond Smullyan from a source other than me?
00:45:54 <kwertii> shachaf: me, neither. thus, I work as a programmer rather than in a phil dept
00:46:04 <kmc> shachaf: yes, from _The Mind's I_
00:46:08 <kmc> though i think i forgot the name
00:46:24 <shachaf> Especially the Raymond Smullyan parts. :-)
00:47:25 <itidus21> http://oi49.tinypic.com/35i0p5s.jpg
00:47:36 <itidus21> this is my (unread) smullyan books
00:48:02 <shachaf> kmc: You should read some of Smullyan's books!
00:48:15 <kmc> i suck at reading
00:48:29 <shachaf> Smullyan's books are so much fun to read, though.
01:04:07 <Sgeo> Worlds stores a file with a silly encryption system
01:04:20 <Sgeo> Although, admittedly, I only broke it with a Java decompiler
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01:17:00 * kmc high fives Sgeo
01:17:14 <kmc> i love breaking silly encryption with a java decompiler
01:17:25 <kmc> 420 break silly encryption with a java decompiler every day
01:28:50 <Sgeo> As in, just reading what the algorithm is
01:29:04 <Sgeo> Which I guess makes it not really encryption
01:29:13 <Sgeo> More of ... an obfuscation
01:29:20 <Sgeo> There's no key.
01:34:14 <kmc> this is how i cheated at yahoo games poker in high school
01:41:12 <shachaf> Kid, we only got one question. Have you ever been arrested?
01:43:13 <kmc> it's not real money :/
01:43:22 <kmc> trollcoins only
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03:26:51 <itidus21> another interesting american taoist on the wiki page was ursula something, who wrote some books the earthsea something
03:37:30 <kmc> very specific
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04:00:05 <Sgeo> I'm not sure how I feel about ClojureScript macros being Clojure
04:00:17 <Sgeo> It's kind of weird, having one language at runtime and a different at compile-time
04:00:20 <Sgeo> Sort of un-lispy
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04:24:16 <Sgeo> This class provides a public static... I guess factory is the best term.
04:24:29 <Sgeo> But one of the overloads just throws an exception
04:24:44 <Sgeo> Oh, no, I misread ut
04:27:05 <kmc> scheme also has one language at runtime and another for macros, sort of
04:27:26 <kmc> it has several languages for macros, and you can use regular scheme in a cumbersome way
04:33:20 <zzo38> It has several languages for macros?
04:39:17 <kmc> syntax-rules and syntax-case
04:39:55 <kmc> i think syntax-case is not in r5rs, but is commonly implemented and there is a portable implementation of it
04:39:58 <kmc> or something
04:43:17 <zzo38> What is it called if an assembler (which includes macros) has a section which can compile code into memory and then it is executed by an emulator before (or while) the output file of the section for file output is written?
04:44:40 <kmc> it's called madness
04:46:03 <shachaf> Mad, call I it; for, to define true madness, what is't but to be nothing else but mad?
04:47:06 <kmc> There is an area of the mind that could be called unsane, beyond sanity, and yet not insane. Think of a circle with a fine split in it. At one end there's insanity. You go around the circle to sanity, and on the other end of the circle, close to insanity, but not insanity, is unsanity.
04:47:47 <zzo38> I have read of a "pathocircle" which is a circle with one point missing
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05:51:20 <zzo38> You say assembler like that is madness? Well, the assembler I use to write Famicom programs is like that. So, perhaps it is madness, too.
05:55:34 <pikhq> zzo38: Did you write said Famicom assembler?
05:56:16 <pikhq> That'd be a unique feature in an assembler, I think.
06:00:46 <kallisti> Fun fact, on May 1st 2012, Sweden made http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-HO-MET illegal.
06:01:41 <kallisti> it's also probably illegal under the US Federal Analog Act, when bought or sold for human consumption.
06:01:55 <kallisti> but not any international law.
06:05:41 <kmc> i took that once
06:05:51 <zzo38> pikhq: It is MagicKit assembler, although I have added various features and fixed various bugs, including that one I mentioned above. I also added macros to check if it is on the first or last pass, and some other things too.
06:09:19 <zzo38> Therefore my program is "Unofficial MagicKit".
06:11:24 <zzo38> I also was thinking about custom mappers.
06:11:31 <shachaf> kmc was taking 4-HO-MET before it was illegal.
06:12:32 <kmc> kallisti: ooc, why do you mention 4-HO-MET?
06:13:35 <zzo38> One feature I have added is NES 2.0 headers. Someone wanted me to make NES 2.0 headers the default, but I don't want to.
06:14:29 <kmc> kallisti: have you seen http://ugcs.net/~keegan/complexity.html
06:17:35 <zzo38> Features I intend to add but not yet have done so, are UNIF format, DotFami format, character encoding translation tables, and a few other things.
06:19:12 <shachaf> kmc: When does a drug stop being experimental?
06:21:50 <zzo38> I have an idea in the Dungeons&Dragons game. Some assassins try to kill me, and I have a correspond spell to communicate with anyone regardless of distance, so I have idea: During the day time when it is light, I can use this spell to tell them it is dark.
06:26:10 <kmc> shachaf: did you know it is the 40th birthday of BART?
06:26:15 <kmc> there are banners up at stations and everything
06:26:25 <kmc> the system actually opened on 9/11/1972 but i guess they wanted to avoid that date
06:27:09 <zzo38> My cjb.net account seems broken
06:28:52 <zzo38> I think my account expired but now I don't know how to create an account.
06:29:39 <shachaf> kmc: Nope, haven't been to SF in a while.
06:35:37 <kmc> i guess EPA is pretty far from the end of BART
06:37:46 <shachaf> The way I usually get to SFO is Caltrain to Millbrae and then BART.
06:38:58 <kmc> SFO BART is ridiculous
06:39:14 <kmc> they should have just extended the SFO people mover to Milbrae
06:40:46 <kmc> using big money airport tax funds to do so
06:41:22 <kmc> also they should extend PATH to Newark Airport
06:41:51 <kallisti> kmc: No I haven't. have you read TiHKAL?
06:42:15 <kmc> the link is a quiz "Complexity class or experimental drug"
06:42:21 <kmc> i have read PiHKAL and parts of TiHKAL i think
06:42:52 <shachaf> Oh, I was thinking TiHKAL was a CS book.
06:43:03 * shachaf is clearly not very good at that quiz.
06:43:21 <kmc> Types in Higher-Kinded Algebraic Logic
06:43:56 <itidus21> zzo38: tell who it is dark, the assassins?
06:50:46 <kallisti> 06:42 < kmc> the link is a quiz "Complexity class or experimental drug"
06:51:27 <kallisti> (which doesn't actually exist)
06:51:52 <kallisti> Christian upgringing. it's in the lexicon.
06:58:19 <itidus21> zzo38: but what if they don't believe you
07:01:46 <zzo38> I thought of that too
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07:40:13 <zzo38> Account creation on cjb.net seems disabled, so I asked someone else to make a subdomain of one of theirs; they cannot do so, so instead we made up a new domain name: zzo38computer.org
07:46:55 <zzo38> I rarely write HTML
07:48:33 <Sgeo> I think I like Hiccup
07:49:55 <itidus21> <html><head><title>This Is My Post</title></head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><h1>I don't know hiccup.</h1><br/><img src="shrug.jpg" /></body></html>
07:50:38 <itidus21> don't you just feel trolled when you see html code?
07:51:44 <itidus21> like theres something evil about posting it
07:51:50 <Sgeo> (html [:html [:head [:title "This Is My Post]] [:body {:bgcolor "#FFFFFF"} [:h1 "I do know Hiccup."] [:br] [:img {:src "shrug.jpg}]]])
07:52:10 <Sgeo> (comment "I only think that's correct, I do not know for certain
07:52:19 <Sgeo> Oh, forgot to close a string
07:52:26 <Sgeo> (html [:html [:head [:title "This Is My Post]] [:body {:bgcolor "#FFFFFF"} [:h1 "I do know Hiccup."] [:br] [:img {:src "shrug.jpg"}]]])
07:52:44 <Sgeo> (html [:html [:head [:title "This Is My Post"]] [:body {:bgcolor "#FFFFFF"} [:h1 "I do know Hiccup."] [:br] [:img {:src "shrug.jpg"}]]])
07:57:52 <Sgeo> Well, ok, so I don't know hiccup that well
07:58:19 <Sgeo> That img could be replaced with (image "shrug.jpg")
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08:06:18 <HackEgo> UNKNOWNCHARACTER: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
08:07:20 <itidus21> it makes for grandoise welcomings
08:08:46 <itidus21> im not sure if there are any girls here
08:11:59 <UnknownCharacter> a story about how i fell in love... and a few years later died in a pool of blood and tears
08:13:08 <UnknownCharacter> yes, im dead but my spirit remained. somehow I am able to chat through the internet.
08:13:37 <UnknownCharacter> it was nice at the beginning. All the promises, the innocense, the freedom.
08:14:36 <Phantom_Hoover> the beginning of being dead or the beginning of being in love
08:16:38 <UnknownCharacter> I found out that she didn't love me anymore. That she never really did. Confused and without any desire to do anything but let out the blackest of emotions out of my heart.
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08:19:22 <UnknownCharacter> with the rain covering my tears... i sat down on some stairs leading to a parking lot
08:21:43 <UnknownCharacter> Devastate I was. Lost in my thoughts. Feeling an immense pain in my chest. Growing tighter as I thought about her grin
08:21:51 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: please let the man tell his story.
08:23:26 <UnknownCharacter> remembering her indifference. It hurted ... it twisted my insides.
08:24:18 <UnknownCharacter> I knew also that if I did what I was planning on doing. I may stop having a heart
08:25:32 <UnknownCharacter> lol... okay, I didn't kill myself... but i wish i had thought of that.
08:25:54 <itidus21> well how does the story land you here?
08:26:33 <itidus21> i mean.. can you guide the story through to arriving at #esoteric ?
08:27:07 <Phantom_Hoover> he thought it was the other sort of esoteric and hoped he could get spiritual guidance
08:27:53 <Phantom_Hoover> best way to deal with heavies is a spy or sniper, don't let anyone tell you different
08:28:11 <itidus21> it does seem that way.. he hasn't made any references to brainfuck, lisp, turing, or haskell
08:29:27 <UnknownCharacter> So, I decided to break all the promises that I did to her, Destroy all of our dreams, just forget she ever existed.
08:30:02 <UnknownCharacter> not much emotion said there cause at this point... at felt indifferent as well.
08:30:36 <UnknownCharacter> It haunts me. Makes me wonder if what I lived that night was how I imagine it to be.
08:31:53 <Phantom_Hoover> so... to deal with your suicidal thoughts as a result of a bitter and traumatising breakup, you came to a channel about weird programming languages
08:31:54 <UnknownCharacter> you'd never know what truly happen... my emotions have clouded my memory. So, id never know either.
08:32:12 <Phantom_Hoover> couldn't you talk to a psychiatrist, or one of those helplines they have?
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08:33:45 <oerjan> sorry, my unicode setup isn't good enough to handle unknown characters
08:34:19 <UnknownCharacter> Let your wonder guide you in finding the mysteries and the unknown.
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08:35:23 <Phantom_Hoover> this channel isn't about the other sort of esoteric btw
08:35:58 <itidus21> i wonder if he realizes what this channel is about
08:36:18 <itidus21> i realize it, but i just ignore the purpose of this channel
08:36:20 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it _does_ say "programming language" in plain text, that's better than normal
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08:41:22 <oerjan> why is the world unusually noisy today :(
08:41:58 <oerjan> or rather, why is the _low_ noise unusually annoying
08:48:28 <Sgeo> I was going to ask if someone pointed him to a hotline, but I see it was mentioned
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12:03:00 <oerjan> i fixed your fibonacci a little
12:05:29 <fizzie> Before fixing, was it so that F_{n-2} + F_{n-1} was *almost* but not quite F_n?
12:06:47 <oerjan> you could say that a couple of while loops had their tests reversed.
12:07:43 <oerjan> which caused things not to happen at the right time, and it _looked_ like it essentially started turning into a fork bomb.
12:08:29 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i had four cars by the time i decided something had to be wrong :P
12:09:23 <Arc_Koen> yeah I guess I should've added comments
12:09:49 <Arc_Koen> left column is supposed to be the "smaller" number, and right column is the bigger
12:10:07 <Arc_Koen> left column is added to a clone of right column, then destroyed
12:10:28 <Arc_Koen> and then the clone becomes the new right column, and the original right column becomes the left column
12:10:31 <oerjan> i did figure it out eventually, i realized it made little sense for a loop to the left that only ever went at most once around
12:10:47 <Arc_Koen> things is I had started doing the opposite - right column added to left column
12:11:08 <Arc_Koen> I changed so that the smaller one got added, because then it's more efficient
12:11:16 <Arc_Koen> (since it takes less time to add a smaller number)
12:13:24 <Arc_Koen> if I were to implement it I guess I would allow function names to use the separator as a third letter, cause two-letter names don't mean much
12:13:57 <oerjan> two letters should be enough for everyone!
12:16:03 <fizzie> One letter seems to be generally speaking enough for mathematicians, so two sounds like plenty.
12:16:07 <fizzie> (What language is this?)
12:25:09 <Arc_Koen> well when I program in ocaml, most variables are only one letter
12:25:16 <Arc_Koen> but those are the "small" variables
12:25:48 <Arc_Koen> variables that get used a lot (because they are global, or whatever) I give meaningful names
12:26:43 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: the option I forgot about in the talk page, in case of multiple choices: make the car continue straight
12:27:19 <Arc_Koen> that is, as long as it can go straight, it goes straight
12:27:39 <Arc_Koen> only if an instruction tells it to turn, of if there is a wall ahead, will it try the other ways
12:28:02 <Arc_Koen> but in this case if there is a T intersection, with turn right and turn left available but not go straight, then it's still blocked
12:29:42 <Arc_Koen> and if the car is forced into a wall by a direction or a splitter, I guess it would either result in an error, or the car would actually driver over the wall
12:30:13 <Arc_Koen> because the purpose of walls is to guide the car when it has no directions, so I guess they shouldn't matter when the car actually has a direction
12:31:18 <oerjan> well i don't think a car should actually _get_ through the wall.
12:32:12 <Arc_Koen> well I guess it would result in an error at the next tick, when the car tries to execute the instruction it is currently on
12:32:38 <Arc_Koen> or it would destroy the car, but in this case holes are kind of pointless
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12:49:00 <fizzie> Purely going on movie physics, it sounds like the car should explode.
12:55:26 <Arc_Koen> when I was little I had this video game where you could destroy a wall, stand where it used to be, save the game, shut it off, then on again, and the wall would be back there... with you on top of it
12:56:17 <Arc_Koen> and then the wall basically acted as an empty cell as long as you were standing on it (that is, once you get off it, you can't get on again)
12:57:15 <Arc_Koen> (so, you can't walk into a wall, but you're allowed to "already" be on it
12:58:21 <Arc_Koen> I think we had a law like that in france... underages were allowed to smoke, but not to buy cigarettes
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13:02:55 <fizzie> It's possible that our current law re alcohol is similar. It's illegal to sell or give the stuff to minors, but I don't think it's illegal for them to actually possess or drink it. (Could be wrong here.)
13:05:09 <Arc_Koen> may be the same here - though I guess the policy when minors are caught drinking is "call the parents"
13:08:27 <fizzie> Oh, seems that possession and transportation is also illegal for them.
13:08:34 <fizzie> But I'm sure there's something else that's similar.
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13:11:24 <itidus21> Arc_Koen: yeah i prefer that sort of coding
13:12:13 <fizzie> Also I sort of thought that our age limit for "strong" (> 22 vol%) drinks was 21, but seems that it's 20.
13:12:13 <Arc_Koen> it works well with functional programming, I guess
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13:13:14 <itidus21> i think its a better game in fjidjiojeiojdewiojdiewjdiwejdiwejdiwjio why does my mom have to check up on me and leave my door ajar then wash her hands loudly
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13:15:09 <oerjan> dammit nvg's python version is too old to run jolvering >_<
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13:15:44 <itidus21> half-life 3: the anxiety transferance gun
13:16:58 <itidus21> gabe newell is a cyborg at this point
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15:34:14 <atriq> Today I thought of a brilliant way to obfuscate haskell
15:34:26 <atriq> Rebindable Syntax, Overloaded Strings
15:34:48 <atriq> fromInteger _ a _ = a; fromRational _ x y z = x z (y z); fromString _ = unsafeCoerce
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15:41:01 <atriq> This lets you do crazy things
15:41:09 <atriq> Including computationally everything
15:41:25 <atriq> I think fromString _ = fix also works
15:45:51 <atriq> Then with 0, 0.0, and "0", you can do ANYTHING
15:46:12 <atriq> And some other things
15:52:35 <atriq> NOW TO ABUSE THIS AND MAKE #haskell PANIC
16:02:51 <atriq> Ackermann function?
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17:39:43 <kmc> atriq: wow
17:39:54 <kmc> you are a maniac
17:39:57 <kmc> i tip my hat to you
17:41:58 <olsner> hmm, how does something like 0"0" lex in haskell? you might not need any whitespace even
17:43:45 <olsner> you probably need parens for grouping though
17:46:37 <nortti> do anyone of you happen to have xorg shape extension header file?
17:47:12 <nortti> my system doesn't seem to have it
17:48:39 <nortti> and X11/extensions/XTest.h
17:49:20 <kmc> i have /usr/include/X11/extensions/XTest.h
17:50:49 <nortti> can those be downloaded separately from somewhere?
17:51:23 <atriq> olsner, you don't need a space
17:51:30 <nortti> because I'm not going to compile xorg on this macgine
17:51:43 <NihilistDandy> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5073040/how-to-find-x11-extensions-xtest-h
17:52:38 <nortti> I have that package installed
17:53:42 <Lumpio-> matti@konata:~$ pacman -Qo /usr/include/X11/extensions/XTest.h
17:53:42 <Lumpio-> /usr/include/X11/extensions/XTest.h is owned by libxtst 1.2.1-1
17:53:46 <Lumpio-> Maybe you should install Arch
17:54:17 <nortti> if my computer had enough ram to boot the installer :/
17:55:12 <Lumpio-> But if your computer can't run the live environment, you should consider buying a new one.
17:55:40 <nortti> it runs slitaz fast ennough
17:56:00 <nortti> well slitaz without x11 and much of busybox replaced with toybox but still
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17:57:57 <Lumpio-> What do you actually /do/ with such a computer
17:58:48 <nortti> well I program, irc, surf web, listen to music, play video, play touhou, tweak
17:59:11 <nortti> and of course try to squeeze last bit of performance out of it
17:59:35 <Lumpio-> You play touhou on a computer that can't even run X11?
17:59:42 <Lumpio-> Or were you just talking about running everything off RAM
18:00:06 <nortti> I just usually don't do it as it slows down the computer
18:00:36 <nortti> also I only play pc98 touhous. I like those more compared to windows touhous
18:01:01 <nortti> also if my computer can't run x11 why would I need the header files for x11?
18:01:02 <Lumpio-> ...I bet you don't like them just because they need more RAM
18:01:34 <Lumpio-> I dunno, for all I know you might have a dumb terminal to act as the server or whatnot
18:01:40 <Lumpio-> I wouldn't be surprised if you did!
18:01:57 <nortti> no. I liked pc98 touhous more even when I had computer with enough ram to play them smoothly without any kind of hacks
18:02:19 <Lumpio-> What did you do to your computer!?
18:03:11 <nortti> nothing. the hd controller just broke
18:05:03 <nortti> and this is upgrade to the machine I used before this but after my ibook g4 broke
18:05:13 <nortti> it had 100MHz P1 and 40MB of RAM
18:06:47 <nortti> worked pretty well but I wouldn't switch back to it unless I had
18:07:01 <nortti> video playback was terribly slow
18:09:01 <nortti> oh. almost forgot. I also run two instances of my ircbot and my web server on backgtound
18:09:50 <Lumpio-> My crappy cell phone from ten years ago probably had more megahertz and megabytes than that
18:10:18 <nortti> nokia 9300 has same amount of ram
18:10:21 <Lumpio-> oh wait, yours has more memory I think.
18:10:42 <Lumpio-> But the venerable N-GAGE ran at 104MHz
18:10:59 <nortti> and something like iphone 3g has same amount of meghertz
18:11:23 <nortti> oh you were talking about that P1 computer and not my main computer
18:11:42 <Lumpio-> What's the specs on your main computer then
18:12:02 <Lumpio-> And that can't run Arch's live environment?
18:12:54 <nortti> almost every distro requires at least 128MB nowadays
18:13:59 <Lumpio-> I dunno if the wiki's up to date but it says 64MB minimum on one page.
18:14:29 <nortti> well arch cd ran out of memory when it was starting up x11
18:14:53 <nortti> it did that automaticaly
18:15:07 <Lumpio-> wtf did you download exactly
18:15:31 <Lumpio-> The main Arch media is just for installation and it boots into a root shell
18:15:49 <Lumpio-> There used to be an "installer" but it was character-based
18:16:06 <Lumpio-> Also burning CDs sucks, I prefer USB memory
18:16:25 <nortti> well this thing has usb 1.1 and can't boot directly from it
18:17:40 <Lumpio-> All the more reason to get a new computer
18:17:42 <fizzie> Slackware 3.4 has a special LOWMEM.TXT for machines that have 4 megabytes or RAM or less.
18:17:44 <Lumpio-> Optical media is obsolete to me.
18:17:47 <fizzie> It's slightly old, though.
18:19:43 <fizzie> I can't recall which computer I had when I was installing that thing. It was either the 486sx/33 with 8M of memory, or the p233mmx with something ridiculous (64M? 256M!? maybe 64M...) of memory.
18:21:26 <kmc> nortti: you can download the -dev .deb and extract it
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18:28:46 <nortti> fizzie: is 64M ridicilous?
18:30:04 <fizzie> I just recall it felt like some really big number. So maybe it was the 256M.
18:30:06 <nortti> Lumpio-: can I replace all the gnu just in arch with busybox alternatives?
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18:33:56 <pikhq> If I just trim down the kernel a bit, I could *totally* have a Linux system for you running in 4 megs of RAM.
18:34:04 <pikhq> (warning: do *not* run the compiler. Ever.)
18:34:21 <nortti> or just use the updated linux 0.0.1 from 2008
18:34:22 <kmc> not even tcc?
18:34:48 <nortti> does ack work with linux?
18:35:43 <nortti> with ack I refer to ack compiler, not that grep replacement
18:36:12 <nortti> it runs nicely on my minix 1.5 box with 2MB of RAM
18:36:23 <nortti> or another option is really old 1.x gcc
18:37:50 <pikhq> kmc: tcc would work.
18:38:00 <pikhq> kmc: I'm using gcc because tcc won't build Linux.
18:38:35 <nortti> doesn't tcc use more than 4MB?
18:38:50 <nortti> pikhq: yes it will. linux 2.4
18:39:45 <pikhq> nortti: That was heavily patched, and I'm using 3.0 anyways. :)
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18:40:14 <Jafet> alias ld='swapon /dev/fd0;ld'
18:40:39 <olsner> put the swap on a network drive or something
18:41:01 <pikhq> Still, busybox will run *happily* in a meg of RAM.
18:41:13 <pikhq> Assuming a sane libc, of course.
18:42:27 <pikhq> It's small, but blatantly non-conformant in several areas.
18:42:28 <kmc> Jafet: o_o
18:42:33 <kmc> i once used swap over NFS
18:43:07 <pikhq> It's also honestly not *that* much smaller than musl.
18:43:15 <nortti> pikhq: is bionic sane :P
18:43:42 <pikhq> musl is ~3 times as much dietlibc, but that's largely because musl offers many functions that dietlibc doesn't.
18:43:57 <pikhq> (and if you don't use those functions, they aren't in your binary when static linked anyways)
18:44:35 <nortti> how can someone break libc so badly
18:45:55 <lambdabot> https://github.com/lispmeister/libgreat
18:46:11 <kmc> bionic isn't really supposed to be a libc right
18:46:31 <kmc> it is a userspace library to help in the writing of dalvik and other android system stuff
18:46:36 <kmc> which bears some resemblence to a libc
18:46:51 <olsner> I think bionic is the libc used by ndk/jni code on android
18:47:15 <kmc> yeah but ndk code is supposed to be mostly computation and not system stuff
18:47:23 <kmc> i don't think they advertise it as a full POSIX / C compliant environment
18:47:57 <olsner> well, does anyone advertise as that?
18:49:36 <pikhq> kmc: It's not a full POSIX / C environment, but there's no real reason it shouldn't be, if not strictly compliant, at least close...
18:49:42 <Sgeo> Is Linux not POSIX compliant? I'm vaguely aware it's not certified as such, or something
18:49:54 <pikhq> kmc: Except that Google only cares about having enough of a libc that Dalvik runs.
18:50:09 <Jafet> POSIX isn't completely linux compliant
18:50:14 <nortti> Sgeo: wikipedia says it isn't
18:50:37 <pikhq> ... And they have a strict no-GPL-in-userspace policy, making use of extant Linux libcs a fucking pain.
18:50:58 <pikhq> (well, now that musl's MIT licensed they could use that, but that wasn't an option way-back-when, and switching libcs is still a damned pain.)
18:51:20 <Sgeo> no-GPL-in-usespace? what?
18:51:38 <nortti> so they have their broken toolbox
18:51:42 <pikhq> Sgeo: Linux itself cannot be POSIX compliant, but I'm pretty sure it supports enough functionality that a POSIX environment could be had reasonably.
18:52:00 <pikhq> I *think* musl might actually be, if you assume a set of POSIX utils?
18:52:16 <pikhq> Heck, I think glibc might be POSIX compliant modulo weird-ass edge cases.
18:53:11 <nortti> maybe it is because gnu dd automaticaly assumes 1024b block size instead of 512b
18:53:34 <kmc> POSIX_ME_HARDER
18:53:37 <pikhq> ... Oh, wait, getopt.
18:53:54 <pikhq> You need to force some environment flags down glibc's throat for getopt to conform.
18:54:15 <fizzie> POSIXLY_CORRECT does some of the things.
18:54:20 <pikhq> There's probably other similar breakage.
18:54:38 <pikhq> And I'd bet solidly on there being bugs in pthreads.
18:54:38 <fizzie> Like enables the 512-byte blocks.
18:54:57 <pikhq> Just because pthreads are somewhat complex, and more so in glibc.
18:56:21 <kmc> "somewhat"
18:56:42 <pikhq> musl pthreads are a mere 10k. :)
18:58:02 <pikhq> http://git.musl-libc.org/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi?url=musl/tree/src/thread/sem_open.c being the most complex chunk of source in it.
18:58:23 <fizzie> I wouldn't be surprised if someone, somewhere had run the (freely available) PCTS on some of these things, though. (At least some old versions are freely-freely available. VSX-PCTS2003 "is available for no fee to organizations submitting products for certification", which might not quite count.)
18:59:20 <pikhq> POSIX Conformance Test Suite.
19:02:43 <pikhq> Unfortunately, that's only for POSIX 2003...
19:03:01 <pikhq> musl doesn't even pretend to conform to old standard versions.
19:03:06 <Sgeo> What is POSIX-compliant these days, such that there's a POSIX 2003?
19:03:22 <atriq> In 2003, I turned 7.
19:03:33 <pikhq> Sgeo: POSIX 2008 is the latest version.
19:03:55 <Sgeo> pikhq, are there any POSIX 2008 compliant things out there? Maybe the BSDs?
19:04:58 <pikhq> Certified as such, I dunno.
19:05:00 <fizzie> According to http://get.posixcertified.ieee.org/docs/testsuites.html the only test suites are for 2003.
19:05:12 <pikhq> Actually compliant? Quite possibly.
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19:31:56 <atriq> I swear I've done this before
19:39:10 <atriq> I have done this many times before...
19:39:57 <atriq> Or at least forget to save things
19:40:44 <atriq> Where can I get one of these brains
19:41:04 <olsner> you ingest them and thus gain their powers
19:41:04 <atriq> Anyway, I'm making a predecessor function in SK calculus
19:42:06 <olsner> ooh, numbered churches
19:42:37 <atriq> Hexham has too many churches
19:42:44 <shachaf> What kind of Church numbers?
19:43:02 <atriq> \fx.x, \fx.fx, \fx.f(fx), etc
19:44:02 <shachaf> What the predecessor of \fx.x?
19:45:08 <olsner> unless you consider that cheating, there's an implementation on the wikipedia page for church numerals
19:45:25 <atriq> That is not cheating at all
19:45:40 <atriq> Except that's in the lambda calculus
19:45:51 <atriq> Not the SK combinator calculus
19:45:58 <olsner> translating that to SK is a trivial exercise
19:46:01 <oerjan> atriq: there's an implementation hidden in the unlambda deadfish >:)
19:46:16 <atriq> olsner, it's a really tedious exercise
19:46:22 <oerjan> somewhere close to the ?d , presumably
19:49:40 <oerjan> it _might_ be precisely the lines strictly between the lines of the ?d and the ?o, but no guarantee
19:50:37 <oerjan> hm is ``s``s`ks ``s`k`s`ks ``s`k`s`kk i `ki
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19:53:27 <JaBoJa> Are there any esoteric markup languages?
19:54:15 <atriq> JaBoJa, not as far as I am aware
19:54:42 <HackEgo> JaBoJa: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:55:06 <atriq> I tried to make one once, didn't get very far
19:56:01 <atriq> Basically a series of instructions about putting things in boxes
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20:05:04 <HackEgo> kenyerlin: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:07:02 <atriq> oerjan, that appears to be increment
20:07:36 <oerjan> yes, i just finished checking
20:08:02 <oerjan> atriq: that means the lines i mentioned, which are in the corresponding spot for ?d, should be decrement
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20:17:00 <Sgeo> I wonder if I'm allowed to like the Clojure ecosystem, not directly because of its access to Java libraries, but because its access to Java libraries brought other people over, and those people made nice elegant Clojure libraries.
20:21:47 <oerjan> yes, but you're not allowed to meta-ponder it like that.
20:22:00 * oerjan crawls back under rock
20:23:48 <Sgeo> Apparently, #clojure thinks of me as the annoying monad person. And one person says it's because I complain without actually taking action to fix anything.
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20:27:00 <oerjan> kenyerlin: no hablo español
20:30:49 <oerjan> most of us speak english here
20:34:06 <pikhq> I'm not sure, but I think the majority might actually be non-native English speakers.
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20:34:36 <olsner> what language do they speak in Hexham?
20:34:48 <pikhq> Hexhammish. Clearly.
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20:39:33 <zzo38> Update your links (if you have any) to my computer! My domain name has changed from zzo38computer.cjb.net to zzo38computer.org
20:40:01 <oerjan> zzo38: i used the external links search page to fix some more on the wiki
20:40:21 <fizzie> Somehow it looks immediately more professional when it has a top-level name right after it.
20:40:54 <zzo38> oerjan: OK, thanks. I tried to use that
20:41:06 <zzo38> Note this includes all protocols.
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20:53:31 <shachaf> kmc: There're slides/videos for nominolo's GHC JIT thing, it looks like.
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21:11:03 <ais523> huh, Slashdot's owners have just been bought out
21:13:42 <ais523> they're the same owners :)
21:14:01 <ais523> but Slashdot is still vaguely relevant, whereas Sourceforge isn't really
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21:32:02 <fizzie> ais523: Hey now, I just got a new "project of the month is this and that" email from them.
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00:08:05 <zzo38> I am writing some C program and Famicom program to make a slideshow of name tables, pattern tables, and .NSF musics, at request of someone who ask me to do this.
00:09:46 <kmc> 8:08 play drum machines every day
00:10:05 * Sgeo is pondering how to best fake return-type polymorphism in a dynamically typed language
00:10:40 <madbr> I'm trying to figure out what's the optimal kind of cpu design for when your system is 32 bits but you don't have cache
00:10:54 <madbr> starting to look suspiciously a lot like an ARM :D
00:11:30 <shachaf> If you don't have cash, you can't afford any kind of CPU design.
00:11:36 <shachaf> Those things are expensive.
00:14:12 <madbr> well if you have cache the optimal design turns into something like a POWER
00:14:26 <kmc> madbr: what about ARM is optimized for no cache in particular?
00:14:36 <madbr> or some other monstruous out of order risc design with some huge ass vector processing unit
00:15:09 <madbr> kmc: thumb mode (16 bit opcode mode)
00:16:09 <madbr> register file not too small not too large
00:16:24 <madbr> 1 or 2 instructions per cycle
00:16:34 <kmc> another reason for 16 bit instructions is that some small embedded ARM chips have only 16-bit data bus
00:16:42 <kmc> (or had, anyway)
00:19:24 <kmc> as far as i can tell, the main design criterion for ARM was basically "okay, RISC is pretty cool, now how can we be clever to work around the drawbacks"
00:20:06 <kmc> in particular arbitrary conditional instructions + selective update of condition codes
00:20:24 <kmc> to avoid pipeline stalls caused by branching
00:20:39 <kmc> sadly Thumb does away with the arbitrary conditionals :/
00:20:43 <kmc> Thumb-2 has them in a jankier way
00:21:31 <kmc> also having the program counter accessible like any other register is pretty cool
00:21:48 <madbr> yeah dunno about having PC as a register
00:22:11 <madbr> doesn't work well with my current design at least
00:22:57 <madbr> I've also considered a miniature vliw, with 32 bits instructions but 2 operations per instruction
00:23:42 <zzo38> Yes, ARM and VAX both have PC in R15; RogueVM has PC in R0. I would like to make up some CPU architecture too, but it would cost a lot to make the chip.
00:23:53 <madbr> but I'm not sure there's much gain over a 1 op/16bit instruction design if you have to load instructions at the same time
00:24:17 <madbr> zzo: you could do something that could run in a FPGA
00:24:22 <shachaf> zzo38: Should I write my programs for RogueVM instead of x86?
00:24:25 <zzo38> Put instructions on a separate bus if you want to load instruction and data at the same time.
00:24:44 <madbr> zzo: that's why most CPUs have cache
00:24:46 <zzo38> shachaf: It depends what programs you are trying to write. For some cases, neither is best.
00:25:00 <shachaf> zzo38: What if I want to write Web 2.0 applications?
00:25:17 <madbr> zzo: 2 internal buses... without having a gazillion pins (which would be expensive)
00:26:14 <zzo38> shachaf: In that case I recommend quitting. But if you want to do anyways, perhaps don't use a machine code; use an interpreted or compiled programming language.
00:26:35 <madbr> the problem with a PC register is that it gets complicated once you start doing out of order and stuff
00:26:47 <madbr> the ARM PC is barely a register at all anymore
00:26:56 <shachaf> zzo38: But it's gotta scale, though.
00:27:04 <madbr> has all sorts of occasions where using it as a register is forbidden
00:27:07 <kmc> you need json encoding as an instruction
00:27:28 <madbr> so in the end you kinda get cheated out of a register
00:27:44 <zzo38> madbr: Yes I think it can gets complicated, but I can make one that is different.
00:28:26 <madbr> the interest of having a PC register is probably doing PC relative addressing
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00:30:07 <zzo38> RogueVM is never meant to be hardware (it is software only), so it does not have those problems when PC is R0. If you use R15 as a stack pointer, you may return from a subroutine using the (single-byte) instruction: MTR R0 R15+1
00:30:26 <madbr> yeah for software VMs the design considerations are different
00:30:35 <zzo38> With hardware CPU, the best way to do may depend to use least gate and most speeds.
00:30:53 <madbr> presumably you want to use as few opcodes as possible and as many parameters/addresses/etc as possible with a vm
00:30:57 <zzo38> Even though it may make it strange, I think.
00:31:11 <madbr> so turning flow execution into a memory location you write to probably makes sense
00:31:48 <madbr> zzo: yeah for hardware cpus... RISC tends to win
00:32:15 <madbr> except maybe before cache where everybody was CISC
00:32:22 <madbr> because denser code = faster code
00:32:41 <madbr> (not true anymore once your loop is in code cache)
00:33:18 <kmc> for VMs it helps to have complicated instructions because you reduce the interpretive overhead
00:33:32 <kmc> that's assuming you are doing a straight up interpreter and not something fancier
00:33:41 <zzo38> For hardware CPU, I want one with self-modifying microcodes.
00:33:51 <Sgeo> I miss Cybertown
00:33:58 <madbr> zzo: that's an interesting idea
00:34:15 <itidus21> i have ideas about VMs. one such idea was to just build a VM on top of an API
00:34:54 <itidus21> well i didnt think of it that way before entirely
00:35:01 <kmc> the interpreter for LuaJIT decodes the next instruction just before dispatching the previous instruction
00:35:14 <kmc> in hopes of keeping the ALU busy through a mispredicted indirect jump
00:35:17 <zzo38> I have many other ideas for designing CPU hardware, too.
00:35:36 <itidus21> i think i also have an idea of a nes vm
00:35:37 <shachaf> The interpreter for LuaJIT does all sorts of nifty things.
00:36:21 <kmc> also i was reading http://wiki.luajit.org/New-Garbage-Collector today
00:36:23 <kmc> good stuff
00:36:29 <kmc> the luajit guy is some kind of wizard
00:36:53 <madbr> zzo: the problem is making it all worth it
00:38:30 <madbr> afaik the optimal circuit design is to fill it with a whole bunch of slow but efficient pipelined ALUs, but you'll never be able to write a program for that
00:38:44 <zzo38> Well, it would be worth it if: * It is for sale * GCC and/or LLVM can target it * Patent-free * Fast * Not too expensive * Not too much power use * A few other things too.
00:39:19 <kmc> http://wiki.luajit.org/New-Garbage-Collector#Bitmap-Tricks
00:39:37 <shachaf> I should write a JIT-thing sometime. It sounds like fun.
00:39:38 <zzo38> madbr: But you would need some way to read instructions too, and then you will be able to write a program for that, I think.
00:40:20 <madbr> like, supposed you doubled down on adders
00:40:53 <madbr> and made something like a 1024bit SIMD or something crazy like that
00:41:18 <madbr> but every pipelined addition takes 10 cycles to execute
00:41:32 <madbr> so you'd need 10 things going on at the same time to be efficient
00:41:40 <madbr> no compiler could target that
00:41:50 <kmc> how long before x86 SIMD registers are extended to 1024 bits
00:42:10 <zzo38> I think ALU and instruction reading is not good enough; also have multiplexing (like Muxcomp esolang), self-modifying LFSR-based PC microcodes, and a few more. And then, make multi-core, and then you would have enough.
00:42:20 <shachaf> What are they at now, 256?
00:42:23 <madbr> kmc: they're being extended to 256 atm
00:42:47 <shachaf> Haswell will let you do integer operations on them.
00:42:53 <shachaf> Right now you can only do some kind of boring floating point thing.
00:43:10 <madbr> 8 x float isn't boring :D
00:43:20 <kmc> 8 floats isn't cool
00:43:30 <kmc> you know what's cool? 8192 floats
00:43:47 <madbr> that would never fit on any chip ever :D
00:44:19 * itidus21 . o O ( <madbr> that would never fit on any chip ever :D )
00:44:46 <shachaf> madbr: What if they were 2-bit floats?
00:44:57 <shachaf> How many bits do you need for a float to be meaningful?
00:45:05 <kmc> 0, 1, 0.5, NaN
00:45:06 <madbr> what, so you get to chose between 0, 0.5, 1, and 2?
00:45:15 <kmc> gotta have NaN
00:45:33 <madbr> +0, +Nan, -0, -Nan
00:46:04 <madbr> but yeah 32bit floats are kind of a sweet spots
00:46:17 <madbr> there's support for 16bit floats here and there but it's kinda specialized
00:46:47 <shachaf> Can you write a fast inverse square root for 2-bit floats?
00:46:55 <kmc> yes, it's called a lookup table
00:47:21 <kmc> today i spent an hour looking at profiler output and learned nothing
00:47:32 <kmc> then i spent five minutes adding 'print time.time()' to my code and found the slow bits
00:47:39 <kmc> shachaf: a django app
00:47:55 <shachaf> Ah, one of those secret things.
00:48:00 <kmc> is there some trick to using profilers
00:48:02 <shachaf> Since when do people profile django apps?
00:48:07 <kmc> i've never had a really enlightening experience with one
00:48:18 <shachaf> kmc: I've derived some useful information from instruction-level profiling before.
00:48:32 <madbr> floats are really nice for sound processing
00:48:44 <shachaf> madbr: There is nothing sound about floats.
00:48:55 <kmc> shachaf: what kind of information?
00:49:05 <shachaf> I've taken to calling them "floating-point values" instead of "floating-point numbers".
00:49:23 <kmc> floating point-values
00:49:27 <zzo38> If some CPU is made by FPGA, use some FPGA with a open specification, so that it can be dynamically reprogrammed with exactly what it decide by itself to need for some computations at some time.
00:49:32 <kmc> everything's made up and the points don't matter
00:49:42 <shachaf> kmc: I don't remember the details.
00:49:50 <madbr> zzo: except there are no open specification FPGAs afaik
00:50:01 <shachaf> In some cases it was as simple as "this is the slow part", which is useful enough.
00:50:19 <kmc> today python cProfile + kcachegrind failed to give me that basic information
00:50:31 <zzo38> madbr: Some have been reverse-engineered partially, I think.
00:50:34 <kmc> instead it gave me a lot of confusing bullshit
00:50:42 <kmc> functions which take a lot of time and seemingly have no callers
00:50:44 <shachaf> If I remember correctly it involved dividing one CPU hardware counter value by another.
00:50:52 <kmc> all buried within the std lib
00:51:05 * shachaf doesn't know about profiling Python.
00:51:17 <shachaf> I thought the rule of thumb about Python was "it's all slow".
00:51:38 <madbr> but yeah the big problem with cpu design is latency
00:51:39 <zzo38> If I could make a open specification FPGA then I think a lot of people would buy it; some people because they like open source, some because they like dynamic programming, and some for both reasons.
00:51:57 <kmc> but some bits are slower than others
00:52:09 <shachaf> kmc: I've never gotten useful information from GHC's profiler, but I've never tried very hard.
00:52:13 <kmc> in a web app it's often that you're making too many SQL queries in some particular place
00:52:23 <kmc> which is not the host language's fault
00:52:31 <zzo38> And in addition, if we can use a same format instead of changing it too often, they can even replace the FPGA chip with a newer model and it will still work OK.
00:52:36 <shachaf> Presumably if you add all the cost centres by hand or something it can work out, but I've never gotten information from it "easily".
00:53:17 <madbr> zzo: probablem is that, what if the new model has 4x more gates but they had to add in 1.2x more latency?
00:56:18 <kmc> yeah, i've never had good success with ghc's profiler either
00:56:38 <zzo38> madbr: If it was like that, there are a few possibilities: One is to include one smaller area with 1x latency. Another is to continue producing the older model too. Third is to have to rewrite the program anyways. Regardless, though, the bitstream format should be kept the same as much as possible.
00:56:46 <kmc> i guess i have successfully profiled c code in the past but i don't really remember the story
00:56:51 <zzo38> This way you can use all the same software to program it with.
00:56:55 <kmc> oftentimes manual sampling in gdb is all you need
00:57:23 <madbr> zzo: ah yeah perhaps
00:57:46 <shachaf> kmc: Yep, that's my experience too. :-)
00:57:59 <shachaf> There are so many little things you do while trying to optimize C code, and profiling can be one of them.
00:58:57 <zzo38> So even if the latency does change, you would not need an entirely new computer program to program the FPGA (you only need to change the setting), also if using dynamic programming you would only need to take into account the different latency and otherwise work the same.
00:59:09 <shachaf> kmc: Have you used "perf"?
00:59:26 <itidus21> i find that the internet optimizes my music access rates
01:00:06 <Sgeo> Oh for fuck's sake
01:00:38 <shachaf> Sgeo: What did those Clojure people do this time?
01:01:35 <Sgeo> No, it's me being weird this time
01:02:35 <Sgeo> I now appear to think that my idea of a type to hold a value of a type to be determined later is possibly an applicative functor, and at the very least a functor... wait, hmm
01:03:19 <zzo38> What do you mean, how to hold a value of a type to be determined later? Wouldn't it be something with a class constraint?
01:03:58 <zzo38> How else are you supposed to determine the type after the value is written?
01:04:20 <Sgeo> I want to replicate return-value polymorphism in a dynamically typed language. My idea comes down to just returning a type that holds a function and that function is called with the desired type, producing the result value
01:05:38 <madbr> zzo: I guess it could be a workable platform for stuff like games and synths
01:06:07 <madbr> games: game defines its own "sound chip" and "video chip" dedicated to its own specific needs
01:06:38 <madbr> synth: obviously defines its own custom targetted pipeline too
01:08:25 <kmc> perl has return-value ad-hoc polymorphism
01:08:38 <kmc> a function can determine whether it is being called in scalar or array context
01:08:42 <zzo38> madbr: Yes it could be good for those things, and perhaps find other use too.
01:08:42 <shachaf> Limited to three types, though.
01:08:55 <shachaf> Which is pretty different from type classes.
01:09:28 <shachaf> In Haskell it would be the equivalent (sort of) of returning (Scalar,Array,Hash)
01:09:42 <madbr> zzo: hm, you'd need something that's not IO-limited or memory-bandwidth-limited
01:09:53 <madbr> zzo: or calculation-latency limited
01:10:11 <zzo38> data T x y = T (forall y. x y -> y); Would something like this to do something?
01:11:31 <shachaf> Don't shadow in data type declarations, man. It's not polite.
01:11:33 <zzo38> shachaf: You are right; it might not do something.
01:11:48 <zzo38> What does "shadow in data type declarations" mean?
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01:12:15 <zzo38> I made a mistake anyways.
01:12:17 <madbr> zzo: essentially it would be good for the kind of stuff the CELL is used for
01:12:22 <zzo38> I meant: data T x = T (forall y. x y -> y);
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01:14:00 <madbr> that's kinda why AVX (new x86 SIMD) did float first
01:14:13 <madbr> that's where most of the bigtime usage is
01:14:31 <shachaf> zzo38: That y inside the parentheses isn't the same as the y outside.
01:14:35 <madbr> (games, multimedia)
01:14:42 <madbr> other usages tend to be IO-limited
01:14:50 <zzo38> shachaf: That was a mistake. I didn't mean to put the y outside.
01:15:02 <shachaf> zzo38: That might be useful... I don't know for that.
01:15:15 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know for sure either.
01:15:38 <shachaf> It's like class Extract f where extract :: f a -> a
01:16:25 <zzo38> Yes it would be something like that, but not quite, because it is a data type instead of a class.
01:16:40 <zzo38> Sgeo: In what way? That way, or the other way?
01:16:57 <itidus21> Sgeo: no its only code and math... it's not a reflection on you personally
01:18:59 <itidus21> what i mean by that is, you can't be insane simply by choice of programming languages, or by choice of engineering problems
01:25:00 <zzo38> I think Yin Wang (the guy explaining the Yin-Yang call/cc problem) also hates layout syntax too.
01:27:58 <madbr> one neat idea I've had is to have, say, 32 ALUs, with 32 registers and 64 multiplexers
01:28:36 <madbr> each instruction is simply the OP for each alu and which register each multiplexer reads from
01:29:43 <madbr> so you could do a routine where each alu keeps the same op every cycle and it's just values trickling down the pipeline
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01:52:43 <itidus21> i think that the linux community should plan for the release of windows8 with a plan for converting windows users
01:55:02 <itidus21> with a slogan like "we don't completely hate you"
01:55:41 <kmc> microsoft is no longer the evil empire
01:55:46 <kmc> they are rapidly becoming completely irrelevant
01:56:01 <kmc> if you care about Software Freedom or whatever, then worry about converting iphone users
01:56:20 <shachaf> iphone users all the time, telling them to convert. They never listen.
01:57:31 <itidus21> i admit i don't care about the fate of people using mobile devices
01:58:02 <kmc> you don't understand
01:58:13 <kmc> in another 10 years the majority of people will only own iphone-like devices
01:58:20 <kmc> they will have a small iphone that fits in their pocket
01:58:27 <kmc> and a tablet one with a detachable keyboard
01:58:30 <kmc> and one that's part of their car
01:58:39 <kmc> but none of these will be user-controlled general purpose computers
01:59:26 <itidus21> i sort of see what you're saying.
01:59:51 <kmc> focusing on converting windows desktop users is hilariously '90's
02:00:14 <itidus21> im worried about the welfare of the code written by desktop users
02:00:49 <kmc> most users don't write any code
02:01:10 <kmc> most users don't care about software freedom
02:01:14 <kmc> and i'm not saying they should care
02:01:24 <madbr> aparently they tried to switch to ipads in some schools and it didn't work
02:01:25 <kmc> but the kind of people who worry about "converting windows users" usually think they should
02:02:06 <itidus21> if someone writes code and the code no longer works on anyones computer a few years later, then the users are missing out :D
02:02:29 <zzo38> It is one reason I am going to make up the computer, which should have simplicity and people who know how can learn to make up their own compatible computer, or if they don't want to do that, purchase it from my company. It can also use emulators.
02:02:31 <itidus21> i dont know if code does stop working though
02:02:56 <kmc> i have no idea what you're talking about
02:03:01 <kmc> it is not exactly the first time
02:03:34 <zzo38> itidus21: I don't know either; if require you could try to use an emulator. But in some cases the code will always work, for example TeX can be updated to work on a new computer, and any Plain TeX document will continue to work exactly the same way 100 years in future as they do now (but possibly compiles faster).
02:06:15 <itidus21> each time an API is updated, a bunch of new books are published, articles and tutorials are written, and forums probably fill up discussing it.. but the cycle begins again on the next update
02:07:16 <itidus21> it would be nice if API hosts could be honest and predict when the client code would stop working
02:07:58 <itidus21> sort of an expiry date system on APIs
02:08:19 <pikhq> C++ IO is the worst IO of any language I have seen.
02:09:03 <itidus21> so Plain TeX basically doesn't expire :D
02:11:00 <Sgeo> Is Java's IO considered decent?
02:11:39 <Sgeo> (not that I want to use Java, but Clojure tends not to wrap Java stuff like that)
02:11:40 <pikhq> I'unno. It can't be worse than C++ IO.
02:11:50 <pikhq> C++ IO is *actually worse than C's*.
02:11:55 <itidus21> kmc: so i was set off by accidently clicking a win8 article, and at the end i realized the product is expiry dates on software.
02:12:05 <pikhq> You have to god-damned work at that.
02:13:24 <itidus21> pikhq: http://tinyurl.com/6m6ent2
02:14:00 <madbr> itidus21 : sounds like same thing as apple does
02:14:36 <itidus21> madbr: hmm.... i dont see how such dates would actually help people... but it could motivate people to code on the VM level more
02:14:53 <madbr> itidus21 : it doesn't help people
02:14:57 <itidus21> or platform independant languages
02:15:22 <madbr> it helps microsoft not compete itself to death with old, well designed versions of windows (XP and 7 in particular)
02:17:34 <madbr> what you end up doing is that you keep your core features in portable C++ then keep doing interface for each crap platform/bunch of libraries du jour as they come and go
02:17:50 <pikhq> I should not have to go down to C just to tell if "read an int from text" actually errored or not.
02:18:54 <madbr> I'm always under the impression the text file IO in C/C++ is crap
02:19:15 <pikhq> madbr: C++'s is worse.
02:19:28 <pikhq> C is anemic, but it is possible to write correct programs in it.
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02:20:14 <madbr> something like "C sucks at strings" and "text files = bunch of strings"
02:20:15 <pikhq> C++ is full-featured, but the only types of errors you have are "bad", "fail" and "eof". And they don't even get used well...
02:20:33 <pikhq> For instance, sometimes, an EOF will set the fail error condition.
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02:21:19 <pikhq> At least in C, it is possible to handle certain types of errors.
02:21:50 <pikhq> Say, you try to read an integer, from text, in...
02:21:50 <madbr> what about all the stuff like XML and JSON
02:22:00 <pikhq> In C, you'll get told there was a parse error.
02:22:10 <pikhq> In C++, you'll get told there was an error, which could be one of many things.
02:22:37 <pikhq> Not to mention, the syntax for C++ IO is itself terrible.
02:22:52 <pikhq> YOU ARE GOD DAMNED BITSHIFTING IN AND OUT OF THE IO STREAMS
02:23:14 <pikhq> And so, they set an example for everyone that improper use of operator overloading is proper.
02:23:25 <madbr> are there better text file IO libs?
02:24:05 <madbr> at least they didn't mess up the vectors and maps
02:25:52 <kmc> i will invent a language where the only conditions are "awesome" and "fail"
02:26:11 <kmc> i will call it... the internet
02:26:15 <pikhq> C++ IO is *really damned close* to that. :(
02:26:34 <kmc> nah, C++ only has "good"
02:26:35 <pikhq> BTW, whoever made the fail() method return true if the failbit *or* the badbit were set, is a dick.
02:26:48 <kmc> these days, to call something merely "good" instead of "awesome" is a serious insult
02:27:21 <pikhq> Sorry for the ranting, but I'm having to do an assignment in C++ again.
02:27:39 <pikhq> And finding myself actually wishing for the sanity of C.
02:27:57 <pikhq> (I feel wrong writing C-in-C++)
02:29:41 <Sgeo> This makes me think that Maybe is a bad idea, and that Either is probably better.
02:29:52 <tswett> ap : (Box a -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c; ap x y z = x {z} (y z)
02:30:20 <pikhq> Sgeo: Maybe's alright for some things.
02:30:56 <pikhq> read_and_parse_and_everything_else :: IO (Maybe [String]) -- is god damned retarded.
02:31:20 <pikhq> The issue is conflating multiple kinds of errors into one, without *any* way of telling otherwise.
02:31:21 <Sgeo> pikhq, in a dynamically typed language, I don't think having the distinction is useful, because if you want a Left that doesn't contain information, it's easy to just stuff it with nil
02:32:06 <tswett> Yeah, that should clearly be ListT (ListT (MaybeT IO)) Char.
02:32:31 <zzo38> Is ListT any good?
02:33:03 <pikhq> Remember kids: in C++, "no such file", "ran out of disk space", and "parse error" are *basically* the same thing!
02:33:16 <kmc> how come they didn't use exceptions
02:35:48 <pikhq> kmc: Oh, you can turn on exceptions.
02:35:57 <pikhq> However, there are 3 types of exceptions it'll throw.
02:36:00 <pikhq> fail, bad, and eof.
02:36:20 <pikhq> And some things set fail on eof.
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02:50:44 <itidus21> what was that idea i had.. oh yeah.. after the profile topic it occured to me that another type of programming game genre aside from soccer and battling to the death might be racing
02:52:17 <quintopia> bfjoust is a sort of race, after all
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02:53:40 <zzo38> To make few strokes?
02:53:52 <quintopia> the goal in golf is usually to do something in less code, not to do it in fewer cycles
02:54:00 <itidus21> but.. if you consider a game like snakes and ladders without the snakes and ladders
02:54:56 <itidus21> it is the inverse of how many hits it takes you to sink the balls
02:55:16 <itidus21> whether that actually makes real sense i don't know
02:56:42 <itidus21> if the board is 100 tiles, starting at the first "tile"
02:56:59 <itidus21> and.. thinks to myself.. i really have to go out..
02:57:14 <zzo38> That is why you are not normal! Do you expect people of this channel are very normal? I think not.
02:57:23 <quintopia> are you trying to invent a programming game
02:57:29 <zzo38> itidus21: If the board is 100 tiles and there are no teleports, the game ends in at most 99 moves.
02:57:55 <quintopia> and on average, what, a third of that?
02:57:56 <zzo38> (Assuming a standard six-sided dice)
02:58:09 <quintopia> i forget what numbers are on the spinner
02:58:39 <zzo38> I don't know the game with the spinner, or the slice ratios.
02:59:31 <zzo38> But if you have spinner with different numbers and slice ratios and teleports, then it would be more complicated to determine the mean, median, standard deviation, and so on, as well as the probability of winning from a given position.
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03:00:37 <zzo38> Especially if you add slices which have multiple numbers on them to the spinner, in which case the player selects the best choice.
03:00:43 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, you are correct about that.
03:00:56 <zzo38> I was thinking not of strategy but of probability and statistics.
03:01:18 <zzo38> With teleports it may be possible that higher numbered positions are not always better.
03:01:55 <quintopia> is there a way to make snakes and ladders better, so that it is not completely determined by dice rolls?
03:02:25 <quintopia> The Milton Bradley version of Chutes and Ladders has 100 squares, with 19 chutes and ladders. A player will need an average of 39.6 spins to move from the starting point, which is off the board, to square 100.
03:02:29 <zzo38> Perhaps; I have some ideas: Add cards, and add some ability for the players to use these cards not only to make moves but also to manipulate the teleports.
03:02:59 <zzo38> And then the cards are hidden information; also add the backgammon doubling cube. And add multiple pieces per player.
03:03:07 <zzo38> That might improve the game.
03:03:07 <quintopia> with you, it's always about adding cards! is there a way to do it just changing the board?
03:04:13 <quintopia> Haunting House does a lot of what you say.
03:04:43 <quintopia> It has no chutes or ladders, but it does have forced movement
03:04:52 <zzo38> I believe the standard game prohibits teleports with another teleport at the destination. However, you could generalize the rules to allow it; if you teleport to a teleport, the second teleport is not active (it is only active if you get there by a dice roll).
03:05:31 <quintopia> I guess I would consider Haunting House a massive rewrite of chutes and ladders
03:06:23 <quintopia> but I can think of middle ground: what if a player had cards to let them choose between moving their own piece, or moving the start or end of a ladder or chute to an adjacent (Moore neighborhood) square.
03:07:12 <zzo38> Yes, that is an idea. I don't know quite how well it works, but it is an idea. And then perhaps improvements can be made from that too
03:08:42 <zzo38> I didn't think of it right now. But one possibility is the backgammon doubling cube (although you don't have to actually use a cube; you could mark it on paper or whatever).
03:09:42 <zzo38> On your turn, if you are not the last player to double, you can offer to double the score of the winner. The opponent may accept, in which case the game continues and whoever wins earns double points, or resign, in which case it is not doubled.
03:10:08 <quintopia> there is no score in chutes and ladders?
03:10:30 <zzo38> I know; when no score is used, a game is worth 1 point.
03:11:44 <zzo38> With your idea of moving the teleports, you could use tiles which are placed on the board and have letters on them so they are paired, and then you have two possibilities to make the game: [1] Snakes remain snakes and ladders remain ladders. [2] Sources remain sources and destinations remain destinations.
03:14:00 <zzo38> There is also a third possibility, where both conditions must hold (and you are not allowed to make a move which results in this changing)
03:15:31 <zzo38> I happen to like possibility [2], though, like you do.
03:16:57 <zzo38> I am just enumerating some of the possibilities.
03:17:16 <quintopia> I think Haunting House pretty much makes all the changes I would make. It's ALMOST everything I would want in a racing game.
03:18:27 <quintopia> i'll play you next time i'm in your neighborhood
03:19:03 <quintopia> In the book Winning Ways the authors show how to treat Snakes and Ladders as an impartial game in combinatorial game theory even though it is very far from a natural fit to this category. To this end they make a few rule changes such as allowing players to move any counter any number of spaces, and declaring the winner as the player who gets the last counter home. Unlike the original game, this version, which they call Adders-and-Ladders, inv
03:19:54 <quintopia> http://www.braingames247.com/playgame/4059/adders-and-ladders.html
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03:26:09 <zzo38> Moving up the snakes and down the ladders is like making a chess variant which is FIDE except the bishops move like FIDE knights and the knights move as FIDE bishops. It is better to simply make the variant modifying the initial position, isn't it?
03:29:20 <zzo38> (Of course, with snakes and ladders, you generally use a fixed board, so you could use the same game to play the variant where you move up the snakes and down the ladders, instead of using a second board where they are transposed.)
03:29:38 <quintopia> but it does make a large difference in amount of time the game takes if you move the snakes and ladders
03:29:40 <zzo38> quintopia: I can't either, but that isn't important. I just read the description.
03:30:12 <quintopia> which tells me that just adding a rule that lets you move the sources and destinations would significantly increase the strategy
03:30:32 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, that is true. Depending on the teleports it does change the average number of moves (like I said, with no teleports at all, the game ends in at most 99 moves)
03:31:08 <zzo38> And, yes, adding such a rule could work if done correctly. Using cards that allow it, held in your hand and hidden from the other player, may work.
03:31:24 <quintopia> zzo38: but the interesting thing is how you can lengthen the game by adding ladders and shorten a game by adding chutes
03:31:28 <zzo38> I happen to like games that involve skill, chance, and hidden information, together.
03:32:06 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes. Like I said before: In the presence of teleports, higher numbered spaces are not always better.
03:32:43 <quintopia> for instance, you like MTG or at least pokemon
03:32:49 <quintopia> which does not usually involve chance
03:32:54 <zzo38> I like both Magic: the Gathering and Pokemon.
03:33:30 <zzo38> In both games there is chance in shuffling the cards. If playing Limited, there is also chance in what cards you manage to get.
03:34:00 <zzo38> Also in both games there are some cards involving coin tosses (a lot more in Pokemon card, but Magic: the Gathering has a few, too)
03:34:40 <quintopia> you could craft a card game where the players intentionally pick the order of the cards
03:36:22 <quintopia> i know a game with hidden information, skill, and no chance.
03:36:22 <zzo38> I have once read about a variant of Magic: the Gathering (it works with Pokemon and other similar card games too) where both players are given equivalent decks but each can choose the initial order of the cards (the opponent won't see them) instead of shuffling.
03:37:03 <quintopia> http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/34887/revolution there is this game
03:37:30 <quintopia> it's essentially a complex rock-paper-scissors
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03:40:23 <zzo38> At some anime convention (many years ago, not this year) I have played a game where the board consists of a few areas which are initially set up at random, each player is dealt a single card (from a shuffled deck) which is kept secret, and the rest of game involves no chance and no hidden information.
03:41:48 <zzo38> You could win either by accumulating a number of points or by owning properties equal to what your card says (they always total the same ammount).
04:05:44 <quintopia> sounds a lot like the discworld game
04:06:01 <quintopia> although that may have randomness? i dont remember
04:13:53 <zzo38> nsfslideshow.asm is written. Now I need to write nsfslideshow.c and then I think my job is finished.
04:57:05 <zzo38> I don't know discworld game.
04:57:49 <madbr> hah I've invented the worst set of sounds for a constructed language
04:59:04 <itidus21> pzeirrvzqmziqwmiqudhuodjaniewudbuiqnwiubewybeuibiwuniusbqwiusqysvwqtysvtwqysgiewhdoiwehiownxioqmmzxiohdknuhfdshkjehlirwmcilwhmcuilrwemcljcfhuwhclmefhumcghiwmr
05:00:27 <madbr> it's got like everything :o
05:12:25 <madbr> like an 8 tone system :D
05:13:30 <madbr> a¯ a- ah a_ a´ a/ a` a\ (hi, med, med-low-breathy, low, high-rising, low-rising-creaky, high-falling, low-falling)
05:18:46 <madbr> and 16 vowels : (front) i é è ê a (front rounded) eu u (central) e ù (back rounded) ò o ou (back pharyngeal/wide) êu û (back pharyngeal/wide lax rounded) â ôu
05:18:53 <madbr> plus nasal vowels ofc
05:21:52 <madbr> 29 consonants: p t ts tch k b d g mb nd ng hm hn hgn hrn m n gn rn f s ch h hr v z j gh r
05:22:07 <madbr> (not counting semi-vowels like y, w)
05:22:33 <zzo38> OK, then, make a file describing what you have.
05:23:18 <madbr> I'm at the grammar step... I have all sorts of interesting ideas but it's hard to tie it all together
05:23:56 <itidus21> at least your language will be nicer than esperanto and lojban, but not klingon
05:24:26 <madbr> the idea is that the rich inventory of sounds makes it possible to keep the words short
05:26:16 <madbr> so it takes more time to go though a syllable but you have less syllables in words
05:27:38 <madbr> like, the most complicated a syllable can get is consonant + diphthong
05:27:43 <itidus21> .. thinking aloud: natural language io is based on the ear and the mouth. despite each ear and each mouth being unique, they are sufficiently alike to communicate with a common set of rules
05:28:46 <madbr> compared to english where you can get consonant + consonant + consonant + diphthong + consonant + consonant + consonant :D
05:29:14 <itidus21> i suppose that audio communication of natural language is limited to things common to all ears and mouths
05:29:45 <madbr> yeah tends to use the sounds that are easy to pronounce and easy to recognise
05:29:51 <itidus21> like if some mutant human was able to hear ultrasound, then too bad.. noone will be exploiting his ability to hear ultrasound
05:30:11 <itidus21> or if some mutant human was able to speak in ultrasound then too bad
05:30:13 <madbr> but there's surprising diversity in what is easy to pronuonce
05:30:37 <madbr> like, different languages have different strategies
05:31:37 <madbr> some languages concentrate on a few easy, fast sounds, so that lots of syllables isn't a problem
05:33:02 <madbr> others let syllables have a zillion elements so that the information content ramps up quickly
05:33:06 <madbr> english is like that
05:35:41 <madbr> yet others have like 6 different sources information per syllable, each of which can vary more or less independantly, for a huge number of combinations
05:37:36 <madbr> best example is chinanteco where each syllable has consonant, vowel, nasalisation, length, tone, accent, ending glottal stop
05:38:17 <madbr> itidus: well, you're not going to play chords on a flute :D
05:38:32 <pikhq> madbr: I suggest you mandate that all strings in it are gzip'd.
05:39:23 <madbr> actually natural language kinda does that a bit
05:39:53 <madbr> repeats of same information are compressed by being replaced by pronouns
05:40:32 <augur> or by nothing at all!
05:40:41 <madbr> more common words are shortened down by slurring, abbreviation, etc
05:41:41 <augur> madbr: also you can get CCCC codas not just CCC
05:42:24 <madbr> texts and stuff like that yeah
05:43:38 <madbr> the big one in english is that most short words are CVC instead of CV
05:43:46 <madbr> that's a huge boost in number of combinations
05:46:55 <pikhq> madbr: Yeah, but still, natural languages have quite low entropy; you should try and reduce that, to make it the worst language.
05:49:16 <madbr> that one's a huge cheat
05:49:40 <madbr> reanalyse dee as "dyuh"
05:50:10 <augur> i was just thinking about their uvular shit
05:50:14 <augur> fuckin 16 different versions of q
05:50:39 <madbr> repeat for all consonants and you divide your vowels by 3 and multiply your consonants by 3
05:50:59 <augur> but theres also georgian
05:51:05 <madbr> well, you can definitely get... at least 8
05:52:58 <madbr> q qh q' * q qw qj...
05:53:31 <madbr> more if you allow pharyngeals
05:53:48 <madbr> q' is really hard for me tho
05:55:20 <augur> really? huh. its quite easy for me
05:56:20 <madbr> uvular fricatives are much easier to me than stops
05:57:48 <madbr> q' and G are really hard imho
06:03:05 <madbr> order of difficulty for me: R > X > N > q > qh > NG > G > q'
06:05:13 <shachaf> kmc: Did you know DMSO is a panacea that the FDA is keeping from the people because it's too good for healing injuries?
06:05:43 <madbr> heard that kinda story before
06:05:45 <kmc> ah, that makes so much sense
06:06:22 <shachaf> A page on angelfire.com with a yellow backgroudn and animated GIFs taught me this.
06:07:45 <madbr> augur : might depend on the variety of q... seems to me that there's the "kinda like a velarized k" version and the "german ch turned into a stop" version
06:08:28 * shachaf wonders whether dhmo.org was modeled after dmso.org
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06:17:36 <zzo38> Do you know the "Grotesque" chess game where all the black pieces are on the board, but white only has a king and a pawn (still on its initial square)?
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07:14:45 <shachaf> kmc: Do you know that edwardk uses a type class to make error messages less scary?
07:17:40 <Sgeo> tswett, anyone else who cares but I forget who that is: update
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10:27:17 -!- oerjan has set topic: I HAVE NOW, ARRR | Official channel of ESME | ESME is the best programming language. Why have you abandoned ESME? | Do not fret, ESME can forgive you. Give yourself freely to ESME. | PT6TRPA6PM6K | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
10:30:12 -!- oerjan has set topic: I HAVE NOW, ARRR | Happy birthday to :-) | Official channel of ESME | ESME is the best programming language. Why have you abandoned ESME? | Do not fret, ESME can forgive you. Give yourself freely to ESME. | PT6TRPA6PM6K | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
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11:06:06 <oerjan> fine mr. munroe, i give up.
11:08:29 <oerjan> i cannot get to the end of that thing without exhausting my creaky old laptop's swap. _and_ getting my rsi recharged for days.
11:09:49 <fizzie> oerjan: You quitter. It's just 165888x79872 pixels.
11:11:08 <oerjan> ...and i was only following the landscape, too; who might know what's deep in the isolated sky or earth?
11:11:39 <fizzie> There's floating whales all the way up there, for example.
11:11:53 <fizzie> As well as things you'd more normally expect to find in air.
11:11:57 <oerjan> i found a jellyfish, although that was close to the ground
11:12:15 <fizzie> Yes, there's that too.
11:12:30 <fizzie> There are a couple of "minimaps" around the interwebs.
11:12:48 <fizzie> Not a very large percentage of the whole space is used.
11:13:06 <Sgeo> http://iclub.site40.net/xkcd.html
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11:13:51 <fizzie> Sgeo: That one seems to be one of the rather memory-unfriendly ones, seeing that it loads all of the images.
11:14:09 <fizzie> http://www.mrphlip.com/xkcd1110/ has clickable separate thumbnails.
11:14:50 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, sometimes I think Munroe only writes the crap xkcds as a front for making the cool ones.
11:15:42 <fizzie> It's curious that 11n11w, 11n11e, 11s11w and 11s11e all exist, but seem to be just all-black/all-white squares.
11:17:06 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: wait, is this a crap or a cool one?
11:20:11 * oerjan finds the small part he actually managed to explore
11:20:14 <Sgeo> Would it be a terribly bad idea to use Notepad++ to edit a Lisp
11:20:26 * Sgeo assumes probably
11:21:10 <Sgeo> Because I'd be missing out on tight access to a REPL
11:21:33 <Sgeo> Modifying code while it runs is one of the things that draws me to Lisps
11:21:42 <Sgeo> Although in Clojure's case it's kind of iffy, really
11:28:14 <fizzie> Of the comic, I like how it's all more or less in scale. The big building is clearly Burj Khalifa of Dubai, and comparing to that, the radio mast (KVLY-TV mast of Blanchard, North Dakota) looks to be approximately the right size. (The cave-pyramid doesn't seem to be the Great Pyramid of Giza, though it could be one of the smaller ones.)
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12:12:32 <Arc_Koen> so I have a question about thue
12:12:50 <Arc_Koen> if there are multiple ways to apply a rule, what happens?
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12:13:36 <Arc_Koen> for instance with the program "aa::=x \n ::= \n aaaa"
12:14:06 <Arc_Koen> the first time the rule is applied, will we get xaa, aax, axa, or xx?
12:19:36 <fizzie> My *guess* would be "any one of the three first options", since the rule selection itself is explicitly nondeterministic, but the documentation doesn't exactly seem to say it out loud.
12:20:53 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC it was specified that behaviour in that case is nondeterministic.
12:21:26 <fizzie> The reference Python interpreter seems to first make a list of all matches of all rules, and then pick a single match to replace; either the leftmost, rightmost or random, depending on mode.
12:22:16 <Arc_Koen> I was gonna go with "pick a rule at random, try to apply it; if you can't, pick another rule instead"
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14:34:04 <kmc> nice, i found some code that looks like: switch (x) { case FOO: ... lbl: ... break; case BAR: ... goto lbl; }
14:35:13 <kmc> because they have four or five case branches with a common suffix of code
14:35:22 <kmc> it's... not necessarily how i would write that
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15:16:53 <AnotherTest> Betelgeuse is 1000 times larger than our sun, but it's only 15-20 solar masses
15:33:58 <FreeFull> AnotherTest: The density of a star isn't uniform
15:35:00 <FreeFull> The heat is making the outer layer expand a lot more
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15:52:25 <Arc_Koen> and even outer to the outer layer, the density is 0!!
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18:27:02 <atriq> Nah, me and lambdabot are livin' it up
18:27:03 <lambdabot> Wuh, I think so, Brain, but isn't Regis Philbin already married?
18:27:07 <lambdabot> or does it become a mishmash of code?
18:27:25 <HackEgo> 845) <itidus21> elliott___: we have been calling a book new for 2000 years and it took einstein to figure out relativity
18:28:09 <HackEgo> 92) <Gregor> I don't know that I've ever heard apocalypi described in terms of depth ...
18:28:14 <HackEgo> 338) <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, I went through a whole series of existential crises when I was 8 or so.
18:28:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: shachaf: not found
18:28:16 <HackEgo> 297) [After a long monologue] <oklopol> i think i have to escape this heated discussion before it becomes a flamewar
18:28:16 <HackEgo> 451) <monqy> rest in peace lambdabot???? <ais523> monqy: it'll probably be back later <monqy> nap in peace
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18:30:17 <shachaf> ion: Are you the ion in http://bash.org/?152037 ?
18:31:38 <ion> shachaf: I don’t think so.
18:31:48 <ion> I don’t remember a “dm” from anywhere.
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19:35:29 <atriq> The trials of an obfuscated Haskell author...
19:35:30 <atriq> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
19:35:30 <atriq> (((t10 -> t0) -> (t0 -> t0) -> t0)
19:35:30 <atriq> -> (t10 -> t0) -> (t0 -> t0) -> t0)
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19:51:26 <oerjan> <Arc_Koen> and even outer to the outer layer, the density is 0!!
19:52:16 <oerjan> i would expect density 0 doesn't really exist anywhere
19:53:15 <oerjan> i vaguely think i read that the outer parts of betelgeuse are less dense than the solar atmosphere around earth's distance
19:53:57 <Arc_Koen> doesn't that just solely depend on the definition of where the outer parts stop?
19:54:20 <oerjan> well you'd say they stop when they stop radiating?
19:55:08 <Arc_Koen> (my knowledge of physics is far too thin to answer that question)
19:55:15 <oerjan> i may remember wrong, though
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19:58:47 <oerjan> 'Consequently, the average density of this stellar mystery is less than twelve parts-per-billion (1.119 × 10−8) that of the Sun. Such star matter is so tenuous, in fact, that Betelgeuse has often been called a "red-hot vacuum".'
20:00:34 <oerjan> doesn't give a comparison with the solar wind, though
20:08:31 <oerjan> atriq: insufficient unsafeCoerce?
20:09:00 <atriq> oerjan, nah, I made a legitimate mistake
20:09:16 <oerjan> ok, as long as it wasn't illegitimate
20:19:00 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
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20:26:19 <oerjan> > chr . read <$> words " 0 33 100 108 114 111 87 32 44 111 108 108 101 72"
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21:06:32 * Arc_Koen watches Oerjan as he goes on his daily tablifying spree
21:10:26 * oerjan lifts three tabs at once
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21:18:48 <boily> it doesn't sound like a very threatening illicit act, but maybe oerjan is a pro tablifter.
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21:48:16 * oerjan finds that :.,$g/^/.,$s/^/ / in vim actually works to turn vertical lines diagonal :P
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22:03:30 * Sgeo needs to destress somehow
22:04:21 <olsner> why destress when you can distress?
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22:24:12 <kmc> sudden terrifying insight: Javascript's 'this' is less like C++ or Java 'this' and more like Perl's $_
22:24:47 <shachaf> It's not a whole lot like $_, is it?
22:25:46 <kmc> well for example, jQuery.each(collection, function () { this.foo(); })
22:25:59 <kmc> you can also use an explicit argument if you like
22:27:02 <shachaf> jQuery does f.call(elem, elem) or something like that?
22:27:07 <kmc> i don't know
22:27:14 <kmc> this is how you set 'this'?
22:27:33 <shachaf> Normally when you call object.method() it's set automatically to object.
22:27:48 <shachaf> You can override it with fn.call(thisval, ...) or fn.apply(thisval, args)
22:28:32 <shachaf> If jQuery does that, I'd call that a jQuery quirk more than a JavaScript thing.
22:29:07 <shachaf> jQuery conventions are pretty different from JavaScript "conventions".
22:29:12 <kmc> fair enough
22:29:18 <kmc> i had the impression this kind of thing was common in javascript
22:29:19 <kmc> perhaps not
22:37:22 <Sgeo> I HATE INTEGRATED VIRTUAL NETWORKS
22:38:10 <olsner> what's an integrated virtual network anyway?
22:38:15 <Sgeo> It's a company
22:38:56 <Sgeo> They bought Cybertown back in 2003 and put it on a subscription model. Late last year, they decided to make it free again. January of this year, it went down for a supposed server move, and never came back up.
22:39:08 <Sgeo> We're stull officially waiting for news, I think.
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00:15:46 <itidus21> Are you thinking what I'm thinking?
00:15:48 <lambdabot> Yeah, but I thought Madonna already had a steady bloke!
00:19:59 <oerjan> > map (`divMod` 7) [463-463,168-70]
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00:37:54 <itidus21> First Images for a New Duck Hunt Energy
00:38:15 <itidus21> ^First Images in a New Hunt for Dark Energy
00:45:30 <itidus21> Forget the Parallel Universe -- Doppelgangers Are Among Us : For example, can you guess which American writer is a dead ringer for Albert Einstein? The celebrated American writer and humorist Samuel Clemens, better known by the pseudonym Mark Twain, bears a striking resemblance to the father of modern science.
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00:58:50 <oerjan> > map (`divMod` 7) [652-463,19-70]
00:59:23 <oerjan> > map (`divMod` 7) [652-463,19-110]
01:02:27 <Arc_Koen> itidus21: see, and I guess you haven't even checked to see how much alike they looked
01:02:57 <Arc_Koen> that's the very reason why the earth stayed flat for so long!
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01:04:57 <oerjan> > map (`divMod` 7) [680-463,229-110]
01:08:07 <oerjan> > map (`divMod` 7) [715-463,145-110]
01:14:01 <oerjan> > map (`divMod` 7) [715-463,194-110]
01:14:13 <oerjan> > map (`divMod` 7) [715-463,82-110]
01:15:52 <oerjan> > map (`divMod` 7) [484-463,3-110]
01:15:56 <oerjan> > map (`divMod` 7) [484-463,33-110]
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01:24:20 <oerjan> > map (`divMod` 7) [729-463,278-110]
01:31:16 <oerjan> > map (`divMod` 7) [589-463,334-110]
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02:33:01 <itidus21> Arc_Koen: a flat earth is ideal. a round earth is, to use my choice of words, dissapointing
02:33:31 <itidus21> i guess that flat earth isnt that great
02:33:42 <itidus21> like if it was a finite flat earth
02:33:46 <Arc_Koen> the idea that I could take my bike and ride in ANY direction and still be sure I will always meet new people is kind of comforting
02:34:23 <Arc_Koen> on the other hand, riding in a random direction and ending up falling off the side of the flat earth... :(
02:34:26 <itidus21> Arc_Koen: this is a great example of what i meant when i said the universe is dissapointing
02:34:40 <Arc_Koen> that would make space programs much less cheaper, of course
02:35:25 <Arc_Koen> "let's send a chimpanzee into space!" *push* "done"
02:35:55 <itidus21> i find that learning the true state of things tends to be boring and dissapointing
02:37:36 <itidus21> however, when it comes to notions of afterlife, i believe that people aren't meta enough about it
02:38:17 <Arc_Koen> and the neighbour's cat jumped into the garden
02:38:28 <Arc_Koen> I opened the door, and it came in with me
02:38:41 <Arc_Koen> it's veeeery curious so it wants to explore every door
02:39:07 <Arc_Koen> and when I had to go to the toilets I didn't let it enter
02:39:30 <Arc_Koen> so I guess now it must be thinking "there's something fascinating about that door! I wonder what's behind"
02:39:44 <Arc_Koen> cause it's the only room he's not allowed to enter
02:40:06 <Arc_Koen> maybe it's the same about the universe
02:40:19 <Arc_Koen> there's so much fuss about dark matter and stuff we know nothing about
02:40:28 <oerjan> As a bonus, my last proof may teach some others to hate internal window scrollbars.
02:41:07 <Arc_Koen> what do you mean your last WOAH JOLVERINE
02:41:28 <itidus21> well.. i have yet to get answers about why complexity leads to conciousness, why observing things creates conciousness,
02:41:53 <Arc_Koen> so what's the wiki policy when it comes to choosing between "Jolverine_Turing-completeness_proof" and "Jolverine/Turing-completeness_proof"
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02:49:40 <oerjan> the _other_ elements are mostly from what i already mentioned on the talk page.
02:50:50 <Arc_Koen> well that was very interesting but it's 4:50 in the morning
02:51:36 <Arc_Koen> and tomorrow I must do that painting thing that must be done when it's "not too cold but not too sunny", so in the morning
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02:53:54 <Arc_Koen> and then massive tidying the house up cause it really needs it and then at 3pm I gotta go to that incarcerated people association and tonight I must watch that horror movie a friend lend me SLEEPING IS FOR LOSERS WHO NEEDS IT
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03:49:13 <itidus21> speaking of dissapointments, is the lack of humanoids or reptiles on mars or the moon, and also, the lack of any kind of islands in the clouds (but i presume noone ever expected that)
03:53:57 <JaBoJa> There are islands in the clouds in early summer morning, when a fog is on the water.
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05:14:34 <fizzie> I greppeded logs on the "any /subpages in the main namespace" topic, and at least back when it was discussed once the idea was that there'd be none.
05:14:44 <fizzie> But that might have changeded.
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05:15:43 <fizzie> There was some talk on how subpages would interact with articles/languages that have /s in the names.
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05:18:46 <Arc_Koen> well yeah I got confused with that
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06:29:13 <kmc> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/73258510/sad-pictures-for-children/posts/311890
06:30:03 <shachaf> Nice talk by roconnor about dependent types today.
06:33:57 <kmc> i gave a talk today, about kernel exploits
06:34:12 <shachaf> kmc: Oh, did you end up updating it?
06:34:19 <kmc> http://ugcs.net/~keegan/talks/kernel-exploit/talk.pdf
06:34:22 <kmc> shachaf: yes, a bit
06:35:23 <ion> Thanks, although a video would be nice.
06:35:50 <shachaf> The r6 talk wasn't filmed.
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06:36:54 <shachaf> Actually we had a double talk about dependent types and then NixOS.
06:39:13 <shachaf> kmc: "how many times have I called exec" seems like a bizarre way of preventing this sort of bug.
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06:46:25 <Sgeo> Ooh, I've liked the idea behind NixOS
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07:00:59 <kmc> shachaf: yes!
07:01:03 <kmc> aww, I'm sad I missed NixOS
07:01:10 <kmc> just today I was telling people how cool the idea behind Nix is
07:01:19 <kmc> we = some group in SF?
07:01:28 <shachaf> Was at Stanford this time.
07:01:51 <shachaf> Apparently roconnor has actually been running NixOS as his primary OS for years.
07:57:32 <Sgeo> Why was I under the impression that it's impossible to write a Functor in Haskell that breaks the Functor laws?
07:57:50 <Sgeo> I could swear I saw a typeclass that had laws that couldn't be broken in Haskell without cheating.
07:58:12 <shachaf> By definition, you can't write a Functor instance that breaks the Functor laws without cheating.
07:59:17 <Sgeo> How about if I redefine "cheating" to mean "using any function whose name in the standard library begins with "unsafe""
07:59:27 <shachaf> Anyway lots of instances break the Functor laws.
07:59:49 <shachaf> > (undefined :: Int -> Int) `seq` ()
07:59:53 <shachaf> > (fmap id (undefined :: Int -> Int)) `seq` ()
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08:07:24 <Sgeo> I guess the thing is that some typeclasses might have laws enforced by Haskell's type system, and a translation to Clojure would be incomplete without mentioning the laws that now won't be statically enforced.
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08:34:03 <oerjan> just read your sleeping is for losers remark
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08:35:46 <oerjan> i guess he fell asleep again
08:36:40 <oerjan> <fizzie> There was some talk on how subpages would interact with articles/languages that have /s in the names.
08:37:14 <oerjan> which reminds me, has elliott got /// fixed again? :P
08:38:07 <fizzie> What would "fixed" mean? http://esolangs.org/wiki//// working? That sounds quite ambitious.
08:38:29 <oerjan> there's even a link on the main page, which used to work
08:38:54 <oerjan> then at some point it stopped.
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08:47:27 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Why was I under the impression that it's impossible to write a Functor in Haskell that breaks the Functor laws?
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08:47:53 <oerjan> well i think you automatically get the rest if you have fmap id = id
08:48:13 <shachaf> But "fmap id = id" is a pretty huge requirement. :-)
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09:10:22 <JaBoJa> If cat could be used as programming language (like described here: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Cat ) then where it reads data from. I've always thought it reads from stdin, but in this case it reads from the script, not console from which I call the script.
09:10:51 <JaBoJa> Is there any other input stream for interpreter input?
09:12:59 <oerjan> JaBoJa: i would call cat a language without input.
09:13:57 <JaBoJa> Yes, but I'm wondering why does it work, while my program copying from cin to cout does not work as an interpreter.
09:13:58 <oerjan> since other languages without input behave essentially the same
09:14:35 <oerjan> well your interpreter takes the program as _its_ input.
09:16:30 <JaBoJa> So how should I write own cat?
09:16:40 <oerjan> my unlambda in unlambda interpreter works similarly. and then takes the input of the program as what's remaining. (this technically disallows comments and whitespace at the end of the program i guess.)
09:17:55 <oerjan> JaBoJa: well if you _can_ read from file you should probably support a filename argument
09:18:05 <oerjan> otherwise, just copy input to output.
09:18:15 <oerjan> we're not very strict on these matters here :P
09:19:21 <oerjan> the Cat Program article is mostly there as somewhere to link to from cat programs written in _other_ esolangs, though.
09:20:49 <oerjan> JaBoJa: you could look at ///, it is rather similar to Cat, except that a couple of characters _don't_ just get copied to output.
09:22:13 <oerjan> that implementation just uses perl's <> operator, which conveniently takes filenames on the command line but defaults to stdin if none are given
09:23:15 <oerjan> that is, the $_ = join '', <>;
09:23:33 <oerjan> command reads whichever files into the $_ variable
09:24:48 <oerjan> in fact if you replaced the entire while loop with just print $_; that would be a good cat (although perl can do that even simpler)
09:25:43 <oerjan> JaBoJa: most esolang cat programs just copy input to output, anyway
09:26:06 <oerjan> only a few esolangs support file input :)
09:49:15 <JaBoJa> Reading from file seems to be the only way to write own interpreter. At least under the Linux I'm using.
09:55:35 <oerjan> ...that makes no sense.
09:56:41 <oerjan> but then you haven't described what you are trying to do, besides that it'll be a cat.
10:04:45 -!- oerjan has set topic: SORRY, WE'RE OUT | Official channel of ESME | ESME is the best programming language. Why have you abandoned ESME? | Do not fret, ESME can forgive you. Give yourself freely to ESME. | PT6TRPA6PM6K | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
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11:25:09 <jaboja> Do there exist any peyo-c (or c++) implementation?
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12:53:35 <Arc_Koen> @tell oerjan was it with you I discussed how queues were not as fitted as stacks for functional use? I was reading the Random language TC stuff and I realized a queue can be implemented as a pair of stacks (one where to push and one where to pop) so it works just as fine :)
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13:09:02 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:09:25 <Taneb> Oh, I forgot about that one!
13:09:33 <Taneb> <lambdabot> quintopia said 6d 21h 41m 7s ago: hi
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14:54:12 <kmc> cnn.com today is running important stories like "How to wait in an iPhone 5 line" and "Dog hates his new shoes"
14:56:38 <kmc> i'm always amazed how apple manages to convince the "news"media to run hours of free advertisements for their products
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15:23:28 <itidus21> because the news will do anything for a story
15:23:32 <atriq> Different computer, different settings
15:23:55 <atriq> For instance, this computer doesn't right now have a mouse
15:24:11 <itidus21> kmc: oh we had the news showing people lining up for iphone 5 here
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15:26:12 <atriq> Anyone know how I can rig up an XBox controller to work as a mouse?
15:32:41 <itidus21> thats an odd question. why not use a mouse?
15:32:51 <atriq> My brother stole my mouse
15:40:31 <itidus21> another question is is it possible to rig up some keys on your keyboard to work as a mouse
15:40:54 <atriq> I just want to actually use this XBox controller
15:41:05 <itidus21> its just that xbox tends to be a microsoft thing
15:41:50 <itidus21> as i have been reading lately, in directx they have replaced directinput with xinput which is designed for xbox360 controllers
15:42:19 <itidus21> @google xbox controller as mouse
15:42:20 <lambdabot> http://www.instructables.com/id/Use-an-Xbox-360-controller-as-a-mouse/
15:42:20 <lambdabot> Title: Use an Xbox 360 Controller as a Mouse
15:43:02 <itidus21> " While this might not seem practical, it is handy when you don't have a suitable surface to use a regular mouse on. For example, when the computer you need to operate is hooked up to the TV in your living room running a bunch of emulators" worth a look
15:44:43 <atriq> I would use that link
15:44:46 <atriq> But I can't click it
15:46:25 <itidus21> hmm anyway its targetting windows users
15:46:44 <atriq> My googling indicated that most users of Ubuntu
15:46:49 <atriq> Have the opposite problem
15:47:05 <itidus21> using a mouse as an xbox controller?
15:47:20 <kmc> itidus21: wired xbox controllers are standard USB HID devices
15:47:26 <kmc> both the original xbox and the 360
15:47:38 <kmc> in the original they used a weird physical connector but in the 360 they went to the normal USB plug
15:47:49 <atriq> itidus21, using an XBox controller as not a mouse
15:47:51 <kmc> you can also get a USB adapter for the 360 wireless controllers... i don't know if its interface is standard
15:48:52 <itidus21> i dread the thought that if i want to stick with windows that i may have to oneday upgrade from xp
15:48:55 <kmc> so just search for using a generic usb joystick as a mouse
15:50:35 <Sgeo> I think consensus is that 7 is not terrible.
15:50:48 <Sgeo> But who knows, maybe in 2020 ReactOS will be half usable
15:51:45 <itidus21> the way i see it, customers losing out is a natural consequence of the practice of business
15:53:19 <itidus21> basically i think what happens is customers feel pain or suffering whenever a pricetag is placed between them and the things they desire
15:54:29 <itidus21> so business operates by separating consumers from as many desirable things as possible with pricetags
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15:55:29 <Sgeo> Oh, so you're a person I should have been updating
15:55:34 <itidus21> ironically a healthy planet and mentally healthy society is a desirable thing
15:55:39 <Sgeo> I utterly didn't realize atriq = Taneb
15:55:46 <itidus21> therefore business separates us from it with pricetags
15:55:59 <atriq> Sgeo, it was in the topic the other week
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17:05:59 <JaBoJa> >++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++..+++.[-]>+++++[<++++++>-]<+++.
17:06:46 <atriq> !bf >++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++..+++.[-]>+++++[<++++++>-]<+++.
17:08:16 -!- Gregor has set topic: We eat clay | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
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17:25:16 <Gregor> Tastes just like inorganic matter and sadness.
17:28:24 <atriq> Gregor, did you get clay on the pants of Narcissus?
17:29:01 <Gregor> Heck no! The Enchanting Pants of Narcissus remain 100% clean and amazing.
17:31:24 <Gregor> They're quite popular.
17:31:28 <Gregor> I'm thinking of buying more.
17:36:10 <itidus21> Taneb, The purpose of science is to serve mankind. You seem to regard science as some kind of dodge ... or hustle. Your theories are the worst kind of popular tripe, your methods are sloppy, and your conclusions are highly questionable!
17:37:52 <atriq> Was that addressed at me, or some other Taneb who actually sciences?
17:38:07 <kmc> i don't wanna talk to a scientist, y'all motherfuckers lyin' and gettin' me pissed
17:38:21 <itidus21> its just a quote and i had to address it at someone
17:40:52 <atriq> The only other Taneb is a dead racehorse
17:40:58 <itidus21> some article "Fake Scientists We (Maybe) Wish Were Real in Pictures"
17:41:53 <kmc> 17 awesomest nostalgic pop-culture references
17:42:47 <Phantom_Hoover> omg you were into popular things as a child??? me too!!!
17:43:01 <Phantom_Hoover> the popular things back then were so much better than the popular things now
17:43:20 <atriq> I was only ever into unpopular things
17:43:42 <itidus21> its inconcievable that the popular things of today are as good as the popular things of several decades ago
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17:49:29 <kmc> i'm into obscure, nerdy things like video games and sci-fi action movies
17:49:47 <kmc> one day society will accept me and then there will be a big industry for video games and sci-fi movies
17:50:28 <pikhq> kmc: Some day, in the far off year of 2012.
17:50:48 <kmc> the distant future, the year 2000
17:50:51 <pikhq> Now if you will excuse me, I've got an appointment for a swirly; can't miss, or worse things shall happen!
17:52:16 <pikhq> itidus21: Have you *seen* 60s TV?
17:52:57 <itidus21> humm... maybe some reruns.. but im not even sure what 60s TV is
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17:53:23 <pikhq> Gilligan's Island is an example of a show that was popular in the 60s.
17:53:28 <itidus21> like i've seen the brady bunch...
17:53:48 <pikhq> Oh, that was early 70s.
17:53:51 <Gregor> Dude. Gilligan's Island is amazing. You'd better not be dissing Gilligan's Island.
17:53:59 <Gregor> I want to be a Professor of Everythingology.
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17:54:24 <itidus21> also.. ahh what else do i see on.. the love boat, bewitched, i dream of jeannie
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17:55:07 <pikhq> itidus21: Anyways. Many media have actually been improving *dramatically* with passing years.
17:55:25 <itidus21> except that i can't stand most shows made this decade
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17:55:44 <itidus21> i think i liked tv when it was less real
17:55:46 <pikhq> Remember, once upon a time TOS was considered legitimately good, not just campy and silly.
17:56:04 <pikhq> itidus21: Sturgeon's Law dictates that that will pretty much always be true.
17:56:11 <pikhq> 99% of everything is, in fact, crap.
17:56:34 <itidus21> i don't like seeing people behaving realistically on tv... it makes me cringe
17:57:00 <pikhq> How would you prefer they behave?
17:57:06 <AnotherTest> I don't think people act realistically on tv? (Just pseudo-realistically)
17:57:40 <itidus21> yeah... psuedo realism is really ugly
17:57:51 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Ugh.
17:58:04 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: They took a mind-blowingly popular franchise and fucked it up.
17:58:22 <itidus21> basically i think people in 2012 sitcomso about young adults act like sociopaths
17:59:03 <itidus21> for some imagined value of sociopaths
17:59:32 <Phantom_Hoover> you've never read the tvtropes page on comedic sociopathy have you
18:00:20 <pikhq> (seriously, TNG's ratings were stellar for pretty much of its run. Which is kinda amazing, considering this is a show that was made because some people liked a 60s TV show a *bit* too much.)
18:00:39 <kmc> wasn't TOS pretty early to the whole "science fiction as metaphor for real social issues" thing, as far as TV goes
18:01:04 <pikhq> kmc: As far as TV shows go, it's like the second show to do it.
18:01:12 <pikhq> (the first being, of course, Twilight Zone)
18:01:23 <pikhq> (well, when it wasn't s/science fiction/fantasy/)
18:01:24 <kmc> <3 twilight zone
18:01:31 <kmc> sure, not much point distinguishing the two really
18:01:31 <pikhq> Yeah, <3 Twilight Zone.
18:01:56 <kmc> a lot of TZ episodes are less traditionally sci-fi or traditionally fantasy and more what you might call magical realism
18:02:03 <pikhq> Especially when you're using it to shine a light into social issues...
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18:02:23 <pikhq> I tend to consider "magical realism" a form of "fantasy", but then my notion of "fantasy" is fairly broad.
18:02:37 <kmc> do you have a distinction between fantasy and sci-fi?
18:02:39 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: :D i actually like a lot of these shows.. i must be thinking of some cousin of this phenomena
18:02:55 <itidus21> i think maybe what i don't like is dramatic sociopathy if it exists
18:02:59 <kmc> fantasy is sci-fi with elves; sci-fi is fantasy in space
18:03:06 <kmc> i'm sure someone has made something with space elves
18:03:09 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, well for hard sci-fi Sam Hughes' definition that "it matters how things work" is acceptable.
18:03:18 <AnotherTest> I always thought fantasy should have medieval elements
18:03:25 <Phantom_Hoover> But space opera is basically just fantasy with a different flavour, yes.
18:03:33 <AnotherTest> although that's probably incorrect, because start wars does have medieval elements
18:03:39 <kmc> and some magic-and-elves fiction goes deep into how magic "works"
18:04:01 <kmc> (i expect so, it's not really my cup of tea)
18:04:16 <itidus21> seinfeld, MASH, the young ones, manage to be some of my favorite shows
18:04:33 <pikhq> kmc: Some "sci-fi" is definitely a totally different sort of thing from fantasy, some "sci-fi" is so blatantly fantasy that the only reason it's not called that is IN SPAAACE.
18:04:54 <kmc> space has a terrible power
18:05:09 <pikhq> For instance, oftentimes Trek is space fantasy, in my estimation.
18:05:18 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: there may be mroe going on in my aversion to certain shows than i accounted for
18:05:25 <pikhq> (often, hell. Usually.)
18:05:48 <pikhq> If Star Trek were hard sci-fi, Spock could not be alive.
18:06:23 <pikhq> Vulcans have copper-based blood. Humans have iron-based blood. Spock is half-human half-Vulcan. Need I say more.
18:06:50 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Actually... Yeah, pretty much.
18:06:58 <pikhq> I don't think it ever nudged towards hard sci-fi.
18:07:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Technobabble is magic but with -ium and -on at the end.
18:07:03 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: i think it may be that i don't like any modern sitcom which is not comedic sociopathy
18:07:09 <pikhq> More magic in space.
18:07:40 <JaBoJa> Why fantasy should have a medieval elements? It is common, because people are copying existing themes but I've read fantastic books without any medieval elements. Sometimes making use of existing comtemporary magical believs is enough to make a story an interesting fantasy book.
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18:09:54 <itidus21> rather, i like most of the shows listed under tvtropes SadistShow
18:10:43 <kmc> "medieval" typically implies european, too
18:11:04 <kmc> versus fantasy based on old shit from asia, middle east, africa, aboriginal australia, etc.
18:11:07 <kmc> all of which can be fun
18:11:25 <kmc> it should be noted that i don't actually read much sf/f and just have vague ideas of what's out there
18:12:07 <AnotherTest> Sf often has elements of old cultures too, eg. star trek has romulus and remus which is obviously based on the Roman culture
18:12:20 <kmc> http://blastr.com/2009/10/ron-moore-calls-star-trek.php
18:12:20 <pikhq> You're missing quite a bit of good stuff, and absolute tons of shit. :)
18:13:03 <pikhq> kmc: Utterly unsurprising.
18:14:19 <Gregor> The new BSG was good for the first few seasons.
18:14:30 <Gregor> Then, like all new sci-fi, it turned into soap opera in space..
18:14:42 <pikhq> And then into rather bad soap opera in space.
18:14:45 <Gregor> The last season was utter, unforgivable garbage.
18:14:58 <Gregor> Same happened to SG:U woooh X_X
18:15:18 <Gregor> (SG:U made it ALMOST a whole season before turning into soap opera in space. Almost.)
18:15:31 <pikhq> I suspect they ended up using just about all the vitality the Stargate franchise had in it.
18:15:44 <pikhq> Considering SG1 ran for 10 god-damned seasons.
18:16:50 <pikhq> Well, SG1 had hardly any space in it. :P
18:17:46 <Gregor> SG1 came dangerously close once or twice, but managed to stay OK.
18:17:52 <Gregor> Roughly the same goes for Atlantis.
18:17:57 <Gregor> And nothing pre-2000ish did.
18:18:07 <Gregor> It's a recent phenomenon, for the most part.
18:18:43 <itidus21> maybe they should make a series focusing on the mechanics of space battles
18:19:21 <pikhq> Soooo, they should get Niven to do a TV series?
18:19:49 <Phantom_Hoover> niven didn't really go into precise space combat technicalities
18:20:09 <pikhq> Hrm. Duh. I dunno why I was thinking that.
18:20:16 <itidus21> i guess im thinking of like ... say.. space invaders
18:20:39 <itidus21> or better yet, an asteroids based on war
18:20:52 <pikhq> Realistic space combat is somewhat hard to televise...
18:20:57 <Phantom_Hoover> read project rho, it has basically everything of import mixed with a dash of snide superiority and racist undertones
18:21:00 <Gregor> The only problem with this idea is that they need people to actually watch the shows.
18:21:07 <olsner> I think actual space combat will be quite different from space invaders
18:21:10 <Gregor> Secondarily, they usually want the shows to be remotely watchable in the first place.
18:21:12 <pikhq> What with the typical expectation being "FIGHTERS IN SPAAAACE"
18:21:23 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, TOS wasn't that far off because they never had the budget to show two ships anywhere near each other.
18:21:29 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Hah.
18:21:44 <pikhq> Nice observation, actually.
18:22:13 <pikhq> TAS actually did that, though.
18:22:17 <pikhq> (source, I watched TAS)
18:23:22 <itidus21> i think multiplayer asteroids sums up best what i mean
18:23:41 <pikhq> They recently announced a date *to announce the release date* of E17.
18:23:45 <itidus21> except in 3d with fancy raycasting
18:24:15 <Gregor> pikhq: Had they previously announced on which day they would make this announcement? :)
18:26:04 <olsner> itidus21: and then put the opponent a couple of light-years away
18:26:27 <olsner> realistic space combat!
18:26:40 <Phantom_Hoover> <pikhq> They recently announced a date *to announce the release date* of E17.
18:26:50 <Phantom_Hoover> that's standard practice these days, haven't you heard
18:27:26 <itidus21> it's occuring to me as i type this that space combat games were a thing and that i just missed it altogether
18:28:05 <itidus21> wing commander, all the 3d starwars games made before the release of episode 1
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18:28:17 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: indeed
18:30:14 <itidus21> why does that name sound familiar though..
18:30:27 <itidus21> i wonder if my brother ever played it
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19:03:07 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think E17 pays attention to standard practice.
19:03:14 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It's in its second decade of development.
19:06:42 <JaBoJa> (reverse variant of cat language)
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19:15:12 <kmc> yes tie fighter <3
19:15:24 <kmc> i had some janky third-party level editor for tie fighter
19:15:31 <kmc> it was fun as hell
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19:15:49 <kmc> make a bunch of star destroyers show up and start shooting at each other for no reason
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19:32:29 -!- oerjan has set topic: We eat clay | No I don't! Well hardly any. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
19:33:30 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen said 6h 39m 55s ago: was it with you I discussed how queues were not as fitted as stacks for functional use? I was reading the Random language TC stuff and I realized a queue can be
19:33:30 <lambdabot> implemented as a pair of stacks (one where to push and one where to pop) so it works just as fine :)
19:33:30 <lambdabot> elliott said 5h 32m 13s ago: you could have just reminded me rather than making a bunch of edits I'll have to revert
19:34:17 <oerjan> @tell elliott *MWAHAHAHA* ok i promise to revert them when you fix it.
19:34:31 <Taneb> Arc_Koen, the stacks in that case would have to tied together in the middle, which is difficult, I think
19:35:42 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: when the pop stack is empty you need to shuffle the entire push stack onto it.
19:38:20 <oerjan> although it's a working method, we've discussed it here before.
19:39:13 <Taneb> The shuffling's probably O(n)
19:39:19 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: ?
19:40:28 <oerjan> yes. athewordthatalwaysslipsmymind O(1) in _average_ per pop & push operation, though.
19:42:09 <oerjan> fingertrees are supposed to have O(1) push and pop. i'm not sure if that's just average, though.
19:42:27 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i mean shuffle as in move over
19:42:43 <Arc_Koen> and if front is empty and back is of length n, then when you reverse back into front you're ok for the next n pops
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19:43:47 <oerjan> yep. it works. but it may not be good enough if you need realtime behavior.
19:44:47 <Taneb> The 2-stack method is fast but with irregular pauses
19:45:21 <Arc_Koen> push x (front, back) = (front, x :: back) pop (h :: t, back) = (h, (t, back)) pop ([], []) = error pop ([], back) = pop (List.rev back, [])
19:47:02 <Taneb> That's where the slowness is
19:47:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, he's referring to FS2/Battle of Endor Syndrome
19:47:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Making your own missions and just having a bunch of massive ships plugging away at each other.
19:47:36 <Phantom_Hoover> With no way for the player to meaningfully influence the outcome.
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19:55:27 -!- oerjan has set topic: We eat clay | No I don't! Well hardly any. | Taneb is atriq just so you know | My other Taneb is a dead racehorse | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
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20:01:50 -!- Taneb has set topic: We eat clay | No I don't! Well, hardly any. | Taneb is atriq, just so you know | My other Taneb is a dead racehorse | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
20:01:57 <Taneb> That was bugging me
20:02:14 -!- ion has set topic: We eat clay | No I don't! Well, hardly any. | 我能吞下粘土而不伤身体。| Taneb is atriq, just so you know | My other Taneb is a dead racehorse | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
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20:08:46 <kmc> but but but
20:08:58 <kmc> didn't the protagonists on the forest moon of endor have a critical influence on the outcome?
20:10:46 <kmc> oerjan: is the word "amortized"?
20:11:16 <kmc> you have to be careful about distinguishing between average-case analysis and amortized analysis, though
20:11:38 <kmc> "amortized O(1)" means that even in the worst case, a sufficiently long series of operations is *guaranteed* to average out to O(1)
20:12:54 <Arc_Koen> if xe're still talking about the two-stack queue then yes that's it
20:14:23 <kmc> there is an interesting relationship between amortized analysis and lazy data structures
20:14:48 <kmc> see: Okasaki's book
20:16:23 <kmc> this arises when you're working with functional / persistent data structures
20:16:58 <kmc> someone might hold on to an "old version" of the data structure and use it again in the future
20:17:26 <kmc> with the two-stack queue, i can hold on to the ([], back) state and execute that pop over and over
20:17:30 <kmc> which breaks the amortized guarantee
20:18:02 <Arc_Koen> interestingly, when I type "okasaki" in google it gives me crappy unrelated results, and suggests that I try "okazaki" instead. so I do, and it gives me relevant results with "okasaki" in the title
20:18:14 <kmc> but laziness involves updating thunks in place, which means the work is shared with "old version"s
20:18:55 <kmc> you use this to avoid spending the amortized "credits" more than once
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20:45:46 <oerjan> JaBoJa: you know rev only reverses each line separately, right?
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20:49:12 <itidus21> note to self.. putting it simply minimize validation to allow cheats and glitches to work, and accidents to be interesting, and random data to be valid
20:51:20 <oerjan> also let the uranium flow freely
20:51:45 <JaBoJa> kmc: is there any way to use such a construct as an interpreter of shell script?
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20:56:36 <kmc> i don't know what you mean
20:56:46 <kmc> it just reverses every line and reverses the order of lines
20:58:38 <oerjan> even rev or cat alone don't really work for #! i think: the #! line itself gets printed
21:00:02 <oerjan> but if that is ok, you can probably do it with more than one shell line initially...
21:00:11 * oerjan doesn't remember the syntax
21:00:38 <JaBoJa> I tried, | does not work in interpreter definiotion (i.e. #!...)
21:01:34 <oerjan> i knew that. but you can put #!/bin/sh and then have some exec command as the next line
21:02:42 <JaBoJa> But it counts as cheating, as it becomes sh-script, not cat-script :P
21:03:03 <oerjan> well yeah. but | is a sh construction.
21:03:30 <JaBoJa> Ok, I understand now :)
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21:08:00 <kmc> you should write a shell script which is valid for all of sh, tac | sh, rev | sh, rev | tac | sh
21:08:05 <kmc> and does something different and interesting in each case
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21:11:06 <kmc> the other day I bought a recycling can from amazon
21:11:10 <kmc> it came in a cardboard box
21:11:20 <kmc> i took the can out of the box, broke down the box, and put it in the can
21:11:22 <kmc> it was amazing
21:13:06 <oerjan> sounds like something escher would have painted, if he'd thought of it
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21:24:06 <shachaf> `addquote <kmc> the other day I bought a recycling can from amazon <kmc> it came in a cardboard box <kmc> i took the can out of the box, broke down the box, and put it in the can <kmc> it was amazing
21:24:17 <HackEgo> 862) <kmc> the other day I bought a recycling can from amazon <kmc> it came in a cardboard box <kmc> i took the can out of the box, broke down the box, and put it in the can <kmc> it was amazing
21:30:15 <olsner> kmc: you should've taken pictures
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23:20:26 * shachaf bade beef farewell 15 years ago.
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23:43:32 <Gregor> I'm lost in a world of neotango electronica fusion.
23:43:35 <Gregor> It's weird and confusing.
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04:09:03 <zzo38> Finally I figured out how to beat the assassin in the Dungeons&Dragons game! I asked the referee what is phase of moon in the game; he asked me to select the phase of the moon instead, so I said it is a new moon and he accepted that.
04:10:36 <shachaf> You should've selected blue moon.
04:10:49 <shachaf> http://gallery.guetech.org/zork0/calendar11.jpg
04:10:55 <kmc> http://chainsawsuit.com/2012/08/07/cool-moon/
04:10:56 <zzo38> Is that a phase of the moon? I do not think it is valid.
04:10:57 <shachaf> http://gallery.guetech.org/zork0/calendar10.jpg
04:11:03 <zzo38> I have seen the Zork calendar already
04:11:10 <shachaf> http://gallery.guetech.org/zork0/calendar13.jpg
04:11:21 <shachaf> zzo38: An actual original copy from the game?
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04:17:18 <zzo38> shachaf: No, it is a picture I found on computer.
04:17:58 <shachaf> zzo38: Oh. I found a picture on computer too.
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05:26:27 <zzo38> In this basketball game on X-BIT, I managed to win 89 to 49 yesterday.
05:26:36 <zzo38> Usually it is not by that many points.
05:29:33 <zzo38> My team (Canada) plays at Raleigh tonight. Let's see... They have a better F than I do but I have a better C. (However, their best F is not in their starting lineup.)
05:31:35 <shachaf> 89 to 49? That's a lot of tos.
05:33:56 <zzo38> I have enough G but not enough F and C. I have only one PF, but I think F is also usable as PF and SF, and G is usable as PG and SG, but I think C can only use C, and in addition there are less C available to purchase, so this makes difficuly.
05:34:23 <shachaf> zzo38: You should acquire some R.
05:34:35 <zzo38> R? I don't think this game has those.
05:35:12 <zzo38> I think the team players are only classified as: G, PG, SG, F, PF, SF, and C.
05:48:23 <kmc> all of canada has one basketball team?
05:49:22 <shachaf> zzo38: Maybe some N, then?
05:49:45 <zzo38> kmc: I am sure that it is not the case. However, this is just a computer game.
05:49:57 <zzo38> shachaf: There is no N either, as far as I can see.
05:51:16 <shachaf> What about: E, TC, OP, O, Σ, ꙮ, VV, K, T, SF, JN, P, L, and U?
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06:31:20 * Sgeo is attempting to understand WTF an application server is
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08:57:31 <lambdabot> The operator `Control.Arrow.&&&' [infixr 3] of a section
08:57:32 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
08:57:46 <lambdabot> elliott asked 9h 38m 27s ago: that is literally the least motivating promise ever made. but i will look into it tonight
09:01:13 <fizzie> Those people and their misuse of @ask vs. @tell.
09:04:01 <oerjan> i think it's an inside joke.
09:05:18 <fizzie> Oh? In that case, ha ha, I laugh.
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09:09:12 <lambdabot> The operator `Data.Function.on' [infixl 0] of a section
09:14:42 <oerjan> itidus21: um it did just as expected...
09:15:18 <oerjan> i'm triggering that error message on purpose to see the [infixl 0] information
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09:15:58 <itidus21> "Brace yourselves gentlemen. According to the gas chromatograph, the secret ingredient is... Love!? Who's been screwing with this thing?"
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09:16:34 <oerjan> the bad thing about love is that it's so secret we cannot find it
09:18:04 <itidus21> its a quote from the simpsons when trying to determine an ingredient in some alcoholic cocktail
09:26:09 * Sgeo vaguely remembers actually seeing that episode.
09:27:30 <shachaf> fizzie: I only do it with a select few who can "appreciate" it.
09:29:42 <itidus21> Sgeo: the drink was called a flaming moe
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10:51:11 * oerjan learns there is a star named Zubenelgenubi
10:51:52 <fizzie> Sounds vaguely Lovecraftian.
10:51:52 <lambdabot> fizzie: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
10:52:18 <oerjan> apparently it means "the southern claw"
10:54:44 <fizzie> "Alpha Librae -- has the traditional name Zubenelgenubi" -- hey, Alpha Librae exists in Star Control 2.
10:55:00 <nortti> oerjan: in what language?
10:55:03 <fizzie> Beta Librae is the Supox homeworld, that's probably where I remember it from.
10:55:11 <oerjan> nortti: mangled arabic
10:55:11 <fizzie> nortti: "The name, from Arabic الزبن الجنوبي (al-zuban al-janūbiyy), means "southern claw" --"
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10:59:17 <fizzie> "The two brightest components of Alpha Librae form a double star -- The brightest member, α2 Librae, is itself a spectroscopic binary system. The second member, α1 Librae -- too is a spectroscopic binary -- The system may have a fifth component, the star KU Librae -- thus forming a hierarchical quintuple star system."
10:59:23 <fizzie> Sounds quite complicated.
10:59:46 <fizzie> All this for a dot on the night sky. Such wate.
11:10:17 <itidus21> One small step for man, one giant heap for mankind. ^leap
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11:13:56 <itidus21> i didnt really know the actual version had a typo.. but i think have heard so before
11:14:42 <fizzie> I'm not sure it's called a "typo" when it's done by a person speaking.
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11:15:06 <itidus21> well in this new age it won't be long before it is
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11:32:23 <oerjan> > (`mod` 7) <$> [1055-1020, 211-176]
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11:40:48 <itidus21> using this information i was able to save the city once again
11:48:00 <fizzie> There was someone at ##c the other day confused why float a = 3.141593; if (a < 3.141593) puts("low"); was always printing 'low'. (Example slightly simplified.)
11:48:28 <fizzie> Floating points sure are nasty.
11:50:50 <itidus21> i suspect i did something wrong here
11:51:22 <fizzie> I have no clue what those numbers are for, but the result sure seems reasonable.
12:02:44 <oerjan> > (`mod` 7) <$> [1055-849, 211-30]
12:03:14 <oerjan> > (`mod` 7) <$> [849-849, 128-30]
12:03:47 <fizzie> Lambdabot must have that same floating-point bug xkcd mentions.
12:06:13 <itidus21> > chr . read <$> words "84 72 88 42 11 14"
12:20:46 <itidus21> > let 2x2 = 2*2 in 2600 x 42 / 52 / 50
12:20:47 <lambdabot> <no location info>: Parse error in pattern
12:21:03 <oerjan> > (`mod` 7) <$> [869-850, 49-128]
12:21:19 <fizzie> I don't think "x" works as an operator, syntax-wise.
12:21:47 <itidus21> > chr . read <$> words "52 50"
12:22:19 <fizzie> Must be one of those "things" that bot has.
12:22:52 <itidus21> the bots things are just common sense
12:24:40 <itidus21> so.. '4' * '2' * 42 = 2600... thats kind of cool
12:27:25 <fizzie> '4' * '2' = 2600, though. I don't know how cool that is.
12:27:30 <fizzie> > product $ ord <$> "42"
12:29:19 <itidus21> what i would be interested in is a case where the text of a number is the same as the string of the number
12:29:34 <itidus21> by something like the product or the sum
12:31:23 <Deewiant> > filter (\n -> n == sum (map ord (show n))) [0..]
12:31:36 <fizzie> Also 151, 152, ..., 159 for obvious reasons.
12:31:37 <Deewiant> > take 10 $ filter (\n -> n == sum (map ord (show n))) [0..]
12:31:38 <lambdabot> [150,151,152,153,154,155,156,157,158,159]
12:32:10 <Deewiant> > filter (\n -> n == sum (map ord (show n))) [0..10^6]
12:32:14 <lambdabot> [150,151,152,153,154,155,156,157,158,159]
12:32:16 <Deewiant> > filter (\n -> n == product (map ord (show n))) [0..10^6]
12:32:22 <itidus21> take 12 $ filter (\n -> n == sum (map ord (show n))) [0..]
12:32:30 <itidus21> > take 12 $ filter (\n -> n == sum (map ord (show n))) [0..]
12:32:34 <fizzie> Apparently that's all, folks.
12:33:12 <itidus21> > take 10 $ filter (\n -> n == product (map ord (show n))) [0..]
12:33:20 <fizzie> Given that the individual values are ~50, the product grows too quickly, while the sum of course grows too slowly.
12:37:08 <fizzie> > flip showHex "" <$> filter (\n -> n == sum (map ord (showHex n ""))) [0..10^5]
12:38:25 <fizzie> > flip showHex "" <$> filter (\n -> n == sum (map (ord . toUpper) (showHex n ""))) [0..10^5]
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12:38:42 <fizzie> Aw. Though I suppose one could argue the "0x" prefix could also be counted in that.
12:39:13 <itidus21> > flip showHex "" <$> filter (\n -> n == product (map ord (showHex n ""))) [0..]
12:41:13 <fizzie> That was some kind of unrelated breakage, I'd say.
13:02:05 <oerjan> bah there's a bug in the jolverine loop
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13:23:14 <HackEgo> Arc_Koen: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:24:28 <lambdabot> forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
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13:59:19 <kmc> > let (×) = (*) in 2600 × 42 / 52 / 50
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14:00:52 <fizzie> Well, if you go all *fancy* with your x's.
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14:27:38 <kmc> http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/62959000/jpg/_62959824_hacked.jpg
14:36:38 <copumpkin> whoa, I'm not sure my CPU would be able to decode binary with that in it
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14:39:48 <itidus21> HACKED is embedded in the bitstream in bitmap space, perhaps
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14:45:54 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
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15:12:37 <kmc> as far as collision resistance goes, how much worse is "first half of sha256 hash" compared to "both halves of sha256 hash xored together"?
15:13:43 <kmc> i think it shouldn't matter for an ideal hash, but might make life easier for an attacker exploiting some cryptographic weakness of sha256
15:14:01 <copumpkin> well, I don't think we have any knowledge of sha256 being any worse than ideal
15:14:13 <kmc> maybe you don't *puts on NSA sunglasses*
15:14:27 <kmc> so how's it going copumpkin
15:14:35 <copumpkin> xoring them together might be very slightly more future-proof in case someone finds some bug in the first or second half :P
15:14:58 <copumpkin> you missed out on a great talk by edwardk yesterday
15:15:35 <kmc> i should pay more attention to these things
15:16:13 <kmc> (not actually true)
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15:33:27 <shachaf> kmc: What are you doing with the first half of sha256? Human-readable identifiers?
15:34:03 <kmc> long and boring story
15:34:04 <fizzie> Truncation at least is a thing that I've seen done somewhere for SHA-256. (And SHA-224 of course is a truncated SHA-256.)
15:34:55 <kmc> speaking of which, how about a protocol which converts a large number of arbitrary bits into a human readable story
15:35:11 * shachaf wonders whether there's anything more to be confident about with some function that takes an explicit output length, like PBKDF2, than just truncating/xoring a hash.
15:35:26 <shachaf> kmc: Human-memorizable, in particular?
15:35:27 <kmc> and a standard for parsing this which is insensitive to whitespace, punctuation, and unimportant words
15:35:35 <kmc> so that you can memorize, say, an entire RSA private key
15:36:06 <kmc> this is an extension of the "four random words" approach to passwords
15:36:14 <shachaf> I've talked about that a couple of times before in other channels.
15:36:38 <kmc> what did you conclude
15:37:21 <shachaf> I think someone in another channel had a thing where he split his password into a few bits and then found words in /usr/share/dict/words whose md5sums ended with those bits, or some scheme like that.
15:38:03 <shachaf> I concluded that 2048 is an awful lot of bits. :-(
15:38:43 <shachaf> You would probably want some error-correcting codes or something too.
15:38:54 <kmc> fuck yeah, error correcting codes
15:39:43 <shachaf> On the other hand people manage to memorize some pretty large texts, so it's probably feasible.
15:40:01 <fizzie> [Insert world record of pi memorization result here.]
15:40:24 <kmc> i think you could probably write a paper on this
15:40:37 <kmc> well, i'm not so interested in world record capabilities ;)
15:40:40 <shachaf> There are approaches to memorizing numbers like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnemonic_major_system which have a fair amount of redundancy and let you make up your own sentences.
15:40:52 <AnotherTest> shachaf: text (sentences) is easier to memorize I would say than pseudo-random bytes
15:41:00 <shachaf> (But don't work that well in certain edge cases.)
15:41:23 <shachaf> AnotherTest: Yes, but it doesn't have nearly as many bits per character.
15:41:31 <AnotherTest> "For most people it would be easier to remember 3.1415927 (the number known as pi) as:"
15:41:42 <kmc> my (unjustified) assumption is that the structure of a story makes it easier to remember stuff, even though it adds to the length of the text you're memorizing
15:41:49 <shachaf> AnotherTest: That's not the number known as pi. Are you some kind of physicist?
15:42:00 <kmc> especially if it's done in such a way that you don't have to remember the connective bits of the story correctly
15:42:07 <shachaf> I wonder whether rhymes would help or hurt.
15:42:23 <kmc> you get fewer bits though
15:42:32 <shachaf> Right, that's the "hurt" part.
15:42:43 <kmc> we should invent a protocol which converts binary blobs into a sequence of dirty limericks
15:42:49 <shachaf> I wonder what the entropy of rhyming text is.
15:42:52 <AnotherTest> shachaf: that was a wikipedia quote by the way
15:43:04 <shachaf> I,I http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Complexity_of_Songs
15:44:50 <shachaf> If you're trying to memorize 2048 bits you're probably going to get some pretty bad edge cases for whatever scheme you use...
15:48:41 <shachaf> I should come up with a scheme for this and memorize my private keys!
15:48:47 <shachaf> That way the NSA has more to torture out of me.
15:49:59 <AnotherTest> I heard of this technique where you had to visualize numbers and put them in a "story"
15:51:12 <AnotherTest> M. Tullius Cicero also did this(historians claim)
15:51:12 <shachaf> kmc: http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ST/hash/documents/Kelsey_Truncation.pdf
15:57:41 <shachaf> kmc: http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/drafts/800-107/Draft_Revised_SP800-107.pdf
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17:20:29 <kmc> so one simple approach is to pick a set of "interesting" words and extract the information from the unique "interesting" words in order of first appearance
17:21:26 <kmc> i don't know how big is reasonable for a list of interesting words that aren't too similar, i.e. excluding plurals and such
17:21:31 <kmc> let's say 14 bits
17:22:19 <kmc> then to encode a 2048 bit key, you need a story with about 150 unique interesting words
17:23:52 <atriq> Am I famous enough to have a page for myself on the wiki?
17:24:38 <atriq> I don't think I am
17:25:23 <kmc> but instead you could use the choice of unique words together with the pattern in which they are repeated
17:25:38 <kmc> yeah, i.e. a dictionary of 16,384 interesting words
17:26:43 <kmc> for english anyway
17:26:46 <kmc> english has a ton of words
17:26:49 <shachaf> This requires you to always have access to the wordlist, which I guess isn't so bad.
17:27:19 <kmc> yeah, i am not trying to design a scheme that anyone can implement from memory
17:27:23 <kmc> perhaps that would be more valuable though
17:27:49 <shachaf> Probably valuable enough to come up with one standardized scheme and get it everywhere.
17:30:41 <shachaf> There's serious diminishing returns to having a larger word file.
17:30:59 <shachaf> 13/12 bits would mean that you'd need 160/170 words instead of 150.
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18:35:23 <kmc> ÄÅäåÖö-_`^
18:40:24 <shachaf> kmc: You should figure out and implement that memorization thing so I can use it!
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20:49:34 <Sgeo> I should try to get emacs and nrepl.el working nicely on my system
20:50:19 <Sgeo> Or maybe ritz?
20:58:11 <olsner> oerjan: ho hum vår sång är dum?
21:01:03 <olsner> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSgngZ9CpTM
21:02:09 <olsner> seems to be "hei hå" or something in norwegian
21:04:13 <oerjan> sorry, it's late in the evening and i won't disturb the silence...
21:05:01 <olsner> you should enable on-demand plugins
21:05:19 <olsner> oh, but you're not using Opera, maybe your browser doesn't have that
21:06:17 * oerjan has no idea what you're talking about
21:06:57 <olsner> it's a thing where plugins never start playing (or even downloading) until you allow it
21:07:25 <nortti> olsner: is it like konquerors load plugins only when specified?
21:07:42 <olsner> nortti: sounds similar, but I've never used konquerors
21:07:47 <oerjan> ...how is that relevant? my speakers are off by default, anyway
21:08:35 <nortti> olsner: you should try. it isn't best on the stadards front but it is fast and powerful and you can integrate almost anything into it
21:08:36 <olsner> ok, sounded like you couldn't safely follow the link
21:09:14 <oerjan> i assume that's a link to a song, so it would be pointless to follow it when i'm not going to put on sound
21:09:53 <olsner> even without sound you can tell what song it was from either of the name or the video
21:10:33 <olsner> not important, I just linked to that because I used youtube to figure out what the proper name was and to confirm it was the song I was thinking about
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21:36:54 <zzo38> Yesterday at FreeGeek I had some .NSF musics to play, they said try Rhythmbox, so I tried and yes it can play .NSF musics, although the expansions may not work perfectly.
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22:29:56 <jaboja> Does anybody ever tried to create an esoteric charset?
22:30:55 <shachaf> Every charset is esoteric.
22:31:24 <olsner> if you're unsatisfied with the common ones, there's also EBCDIC
22:32:22 <olsner> "solved problem, move along" :P
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22:54:32 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Who totally are?
22:55:10 <shachaf> \, is a terrible character.
22:55:15 <shachaf> ~? and `. are also terrible.
22:55:18 <shachaf> I mean, they're double-width!
23:01:12 <olsner> erranter falso perperam
23:02:56 <jaboja> EBCDIC is interesting... Internet Explorer understands it, but Firefoks and Chrome don't.
23:04:50 <olsner> I'm surprised IE supports it, is it even possible to write HTML in ebcdic?
23:06:11 <olsner> hmm... I suppose if the http headers specify the charset, it's no problem to decode the ebcdic before sending it on to the HTML stuff
23:06:24 <Sgeo> I accidentally flooded #clojure
23:06:34 <Sgeo> Turns out the bot will gladly loop forever printing stuff
23:07:40 <Sgeo> Well, not "forever"
23:08:08 <olsner> only until it gets kicked?
23:08:32 <Sgeo> It was doing the side-effects to realize the first 32 elements
23:08:44 <Sgeo> Since I mapped a side-effecting function onto an infinite lazy seq
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23:09:03 <olsner> I hope you derided them for having side-effects in their language
23:09:19 <olsner> "this wouldn't have happened in Haskell!"
23:11:36 <jaboja> http://jagiello.vot.pl/ebcdic.php
23:12:51 <jaboja> PHP used to send correct charset via HTTP (setting it only via meta tag does not force IE to parse it as EBCDIC)
23:13:02 <olsner> aww, opera doesn't have ebcdic
23:13:32 <Gregor> I suspect that as many as two people in this channel intentionally use IE, and maybe about seven total have it available.
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23:18:38 <zzo38> EBCDIC is not very good. ASCII is better. However, different thing, other character sets might works better. Also, if I designed ASCII the order would differ a bit, such as having 'A' after '9' so that you can write hexadecimal numbers.
23:21:23 <zzo38> I plan to make the FCHDL (Famicom Hardware Description Language) which is a Haskell library which can compile a Famicom mapper code in DotFami .cart format.
23:24:47 <oerjan> <NihilistDandy> I'd probably go with falso <-- but that would be less meta
23:25:25 <zzo38> What would you do if it was your job to design the 7-bit ASCII code including orders?
23:26:13 <zzo38> Do you not like to make up the ASCII?
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23:57:22 <zzo38> How can you detect open bus in software? I want to be able to design a computer and have it detect whether or not anything is connected to the external memory port, if you push START (or use auto-start mode) to check the optical disc, external memory, etc to see if there is any program to load. But there is another possibility: The external memory does not necessarily have to be an executable program
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00:14:16 <Sgeo> I'm not sure if Clojure's community is a good thing or a bad thing
00:14:25 <Sgeo> On the one hand, lots of libraries, many of them good
00:14:30 <Sgeo> On the other hand, so many idiots
00:15:05 <kmc> zzo38: put a weak pull-up resistor on the bus, and require that any connected device drives the bus low when idle
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01:06:10 <zzo38> kmc: OK, well, I suppose it could be used on one pin to specify whether or not a program can be loaded from the device.
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01:13:18 <kmc> yeah, if you have a dedicated pin then the cartridge can just short that pin to ground
01:14:13 <Lumpio-> Just do a standard protocol like USB
01:19:14 <zzo38> It isn't USB. It is a memory address/data bus, and a few other things such as clock, audio, and some general purpose I/O.
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01:42:47 <Arc_Koen> Turing machines do not have a finite number of possible states, right?
01:43:19 <Arc_Koen> otherwise all programs would be known to halt because they would necessarily either stop or be periodic
01:43:39 <Arc_Koen> uh, I mean, they wouldn't necessarily halt but the halting problem would be solved
01:43:54 <kmc> the "head" of the machine has a finite set of states
01:44:03 <kmc> but the tape can grow without bound
01:44:27 <Arc_Koen> so a language which doesn't have this infinity possibility, that's what we call a finite-state automaton?
01:44:56 <kmc> there are non-infinite machines other than finite state automata
01:45:10 <kmc> for example, the pushdown automaton is intermediate in power between a finite state machine and a turing machine
01:45:28 <kmc> also be careful, the word "language" in computability theory does not mean the same as "programming language"
01:45:36 <kmc> in computability a language is just a set of strings
01:45:45 <kmc> we don't assign meaning to the strings; we just ask whether they're in the set or not
01:47:05 <Arc_Koen> so "programming language" you call "machine"?
01:47:20 <Arc_Koen> I mean intuitively I'd say the "machine" is a particular program
01:47:35 <Arc_Koen> so the programming language would be "the set of all machines"
01:47:39 <kmc> languages are types of machines, then
01:47:46 <kmc> but for turing machines there is a universal machine
01:48:01 <kmc> any turing machine can be emulated by passing some initial state to the universal machine
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01:48:40 <Arc_Koen> and of course "initial state" can be seen as an input, so basically a unversal turing machine is an interpreter?
01:49:13 <kmc> when you're viewing turing machines as functions, the input is the initial state of the tape
01:50:23 <Arc_Koen> so I looked up what exactly a push-down automaton was - it's just a turing machine hooked to a stack
01:51:12 <Arc_Koen> yet that's not enough to be as powerful as a turing machine?
01:53:14 <kmc> no, it's not a turing machine hooked up to a stack
01:53:20 <kmc> it's a finite state machine hooked up to a stack
01:53:36 <kmc> fsm: (state, input character) -> state
01:54:15 <kmc> pda: (state, input character, top of stack) -> (state, thing to push or not)
01:54:25 <JaBoJa> Is it logically determined for every UTM program if it halts or not? Or does there exist programs with stop problem unsolvable like continuum problem.
01:54:47 <kmc> turing machine: (state, character under head) -> (state, new character under head, direction to move on tape)
01:55:35 <kmc> a turing machine with finite tape is equivalent to a finite automaton
01:56:04 <kmc> just like a turing machine with n independent state variables is equivalent to a turing machine with one state variable
01:56:35 <kmc> the only requirement is that the set of states is finite
01:56:51 <Arc_Koen> but the input character can be taken from an infinite alphabet?
01:56:52 <kmc> so you can use finite-length tuples over finite sets of states
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01:58:38 <lambdabot> dropFromEnd n xs = zipWith const xs (drop n xs)
02:00:46 <kmc> Arc_Koen: there is a wrinkle in what i said though
02:01:02 <kmc> a deterministic finite state machine is defined by a function (state, input character) -> state
02:01:31 <kmc> but a nondeterministic finite state machine has a set of "possible" new states
02:01:53 <kmc> it turns out that, if some language is recognized by a NFA, you can make a DFA to recognize it
02:01:56 <kmc> (and vice versa)
02:01:59 <kmc> but this is not true for pushdown automata
02:02:09 <kmc> nondeterministic pushdown automata are strictly more powerful than deterministic ones
02:02:31 <kmc> but it is true for turing machines
02:02:43 <Arc_Koen> that's what the wikipedia page said, but they explained why in one sentence and it was grammatically incorrect and not really helping
02:02:54 <kmc> (until you start talking about the execution time rather than just what's possible or impossible)
02:03:09 <kmc> which thing did wikipedia try to explain?
02:03:29 <Arc_Koen> why you couldn't turn a nondeterministic pushdown automaton into a deterministic one
02:03:43 <kmc> yeah, i don't remember offhand
02:04:04 <Arc_Koen> Unlike finite-state machines, there exists no general alogorithm of turning a NDPDA into an equivalent DPDA, because that the problem of determining whether a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context-free_language is deterministic is decidable, which is not.[1]
02:04:26 <Arc_Koen> (please excuse the weird way my irc client copies links)
02:07:47 <kmc> finding a proof of this is surprisigly hard
02:07:50 <kmc> or maybe i just suck at googling it
02:07:52 <kmc> http://cstheory.stackexchange.com/questions/9673/why-is-non-determinism-push-down-automata-necessary
02:13:04 <Arc_Koen> so in their example they say you have a word as input
02:13:25 <Arc_Koen> you said you had only a character - if the word's length is not bounded, then it's not the same, is it?
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02:27:44 <kmc> a finite state machine or pushdown automaton processes one character at a time
02:28:15 <kmc> the input is a word of finite length, but it can be any finite length, there is no bound to how big the word could be
02:28:22 <kmc> (of course you can make a machine which rejects all words bigger than n)
02:28:41 <Arc_Koen> hmmm but does it have to process the next character at every tick?
02:28:52 <kmc> a deterministic automaton yes
02:29:40 <kmc> in some presentations, a nondeterministic automaton can have "ε transitions" which move from one state to another without consuming a character
02:29:51 <kmc> but this is a just notational convenience
02:30:27 <kmc> because you could just add everything reachable from ε transitions to the set of possible next states
02:30:56 <kmc> a good book on this stuff is _Introduction to the Theory of Computation_ by Sipser
02:31:16 <kmc> it presents everything in order using consistent notation etc
02:31:30 <kmc> much nicer than reading a bunch of wikipedia pages
02:31:57 <Arc_Koen> yep I definitely should read books
02:35:03 <Arc_Koen> but still, if there are an infinity of possible words
02:35:51 <Arc_Koen> oh, right, you said the epsilon thing was only for nondeterministic automatons
02:38:01 <kmc> actually i'm not sure the ε transitions can be removed from a NPDA
02:38:16 <kmc> you can use them to push or pop more than one stack character per input character
02:38:56 <Arc_Koen> on a dpa with a finite number of states I'm pretty convinced it cannot be removed
02:39:12 <kmc> the set of states is always finite
02:39:35 <kmc> i mean it's not impossible to talk about infinite number of states
02:39:40 <kmc> but it's not what people usually talk about
02:39:44 <Arc_Koen> so where exactly does the "finite-state automaton" name come from?
02:39:58 <kmc> there are a finite number of states
02:40:06 <kmc> i.e. a finite amount of state
02:41:38 <Arc_Koen> ok so that "finite" means it really is finite, opposite to a turing machine which tape can be in an infinite amount of states
02:42:51 <kmc> a pushdown automaton also has an infinite number of states icluding the stack
02:43:26 <kmc> (when i said "the set of states is always finite" i meant the states not including the stack, i.e. the things typically drawn as nodes in a graph
02:43:33 <Arc_Koen> I'm thinking they should have bothered to find a different word for the "states" in the automaton and the total "states" the machine can be in
02:43:39 <kmc> yeah exactly
02:48:23 <zzo38> If you lose a game of Double Fanucci against a dragon, you will die, isn't it? However, I lost against a half-dragon, so I only lost five perica instead.
02:49:37 <Arc_Koen> a half-dragon? I thought we called them lizards
02:51:09 <zzo38> This is different half dragon though.
02:51:23 <Arc_Koen> besides, i'm guessing half-dragons are less powerful than whole dragons, so losing against a half-dragon should be more severely punished
02:52:47 <Arc_Koen> (as in, losing against a half-dragon implies you would have lost against a whole dragon as well)
02:53:38 <zzo38> I don't think it would imply; it depend how the cards are dealt.
02:54:44 <zzo38> As well as on how good you are at the game.
02:55:37 <Arc_Koen> well except if it's a game of chance, and you're considering that the winner will bully the loser, in which case yeah I guess being bullied by a whole dragon is more scary
02:56:26 <zzo38> It is a card game, so there would be chance involved, but skill is also involved
02:56:48 <zzo38> No, it is not Zork. It is what I wrote in my character background story for Dungeons&Dragons.
02:57:19 <itidus21> zzo38: i have been thinking that some of those x-bit sports you have been playing could be played without a computer by a few people around a table
02:57:34 <itidus21> but i dont want to interrupt right now
02:58:26 <zzo38> itidus21: Play by cards?
02:59:01 <itidus21> like the boxing and the basketball
02:59:55 <itidus21> i was thinking more of having a GM
03:00:34 <Arc_Koen> (zzo38: my point was that, if you're playing, say, a go tournament (or chess tournament, or any other game) and every game you play affects your ranking, then loosing against a "strong" opponent will make you loose less ranking points than losing against a "weak" player)
03:00:41 <zzo38> Sure you could, but I would think it would be better by cards
03:01:27 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: OK. But how good you are at these kind of games (chess, cards, go, whatever) is not your physical strength.
03:01:30 <Sgeo> I'm tempted to just stick with Eclipse
03:01:46 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: well, a box tournament then
03:03:12 <Arc_Koen> though yeah, if you can be physically "damaged" during the game then playing against someone too strong might be dangerous - though if the damage is already implied by the fact that you have lost, it could not make a difference
03:04:06 <itidus21> is this like playing chess against a wookie?
03:04:39 <Arc_Koen> also, the way you said "play by cards" just gave me the idea that any card game which doesn't include a pile, but rather have the cards dealt among the players at the beginning, could be played by email
03:05:01 <Arc_Koen> like, you send the card you want to play along with the letter
03:05:01 <itidus21> well not chess.. i don't know what the actual game is called
03:05:21 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: OK, if you prefer that way.
03:05:42 <Arc_Koen> itidus21: against a wookie, I think it's less dangerous to loose than to win (in case the wookie is a sore looser)
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03:07:31 <itidus21> i see, a dragon is not like a wookie
03:15:16 <Arc_Koen> oh I had an idea for a nondeterministic language today
03:15:31 <Arc_Koen> basically it would be a monopoly-like board game
03:15:56 <Arc_Koen> where all the players are controlled by the computer, with dice being rolled
03:16:20 <Arc_Koen> and the cells on the board, or the cards to be drawn, would affect the memory and trigger some computations
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04:10:51 <HackEgo> dajfsa: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:19:26 <kmc> !@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!
04:27:27 <ion> > (intercalate " " . map (flip (replicate 'q'))) [1..]
04:27:28 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Int'
04:27:38 <ion> > (intercalate " " . map (flip replicate 'q')) [1..]
04:27:40 <lambdabot> "q qq qqq qqqq qqqqq qqqqqq qqqqqqq qqqqqqqq qqqqqqqqq qqqqqqqqqq qqqqqqqqq...
04:28:06 * ion remembers unwords
04:35:57 <Arc_Koen> machine code uses goto? when writing functional programs it's better to have recursive calls be the last thing in a function... I wonder if, on a computer where machine code would use comefroms instead of gotos, it would be better to have recursive calls be the first thing in a function
04:37:24 <Arc_Koen> (that thought was sponsored by the It Is 6 am And I Havent Slept Yet industry)
04:39:50 <kmc> head llac optimization
04:40:50 <kmc> has there been much work on esoteric quantum programming languages
04:41:42 <kmc> there is quantum brainfuck at least
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05:52:09 <Arc_Koen> well my interrogations about turing-completeness and input/output were legitimate I think
05:52:49 <Arc_Koen> consider a language which has a function "print" and a function "read" which allow to output and input some stuff
05:53:10 <Arc_Koen> and it also has other functions, and considering those other functions only you manage to prove it turing-complete
05:53:49 <Arc_Koen> then someone asks you to write a program in that language that takes an input n, and outputs fib(n)
05:54:33 <Gregor> And? Claiming that a language is TC does not claim that it is possible to do that.
05:55:44 <Arc_Koen> well, I thought turing-completeness was a way to describe what algorithms the language could implement
05:56:20 <Arc_Koen> and there you have a language you said was tc and yet it cannot do something as simple as giving you fib(n)
05:56:29 <Gregor> It is. Input is not usually considered to be part of algorithms, and even if it is, it's certainly outside the scope of Turing-completeness.
05:56:36 <Gregor> It can give you fib(n)
05:56:46 <Gregor> The question of how you get “n” is different.
05:57:19 <Arc_Koen> it can ran computations, but it has no ways of giving me a result
05:57:38 <Gregor> So long as it's calculated that result, it's done.
05:57:53 <Gregor> Your disagreement is irrelevant, you're simply wrong.
05:58:07 <Arc_Koen> whoa that's really interesting talking with you
05:58:20 <Arc_Koen> I have to go sleep anyway, have a nice day
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07:08:29 <Sgeo> How much of a memory hog is Eclipse, exactly?
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07:41:25 <fizzie> `welcome guy_who_maybe_should_speak_English
07:41:36 <HackEgo> guy_who_maybe_should_speak_English: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
07:43:53 <lambdabot> *** "floozie" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
07:43:54 <lambdabot> n 1: a prostitute who attracts customers by walking the streets
07:43:54 <lambdabot> [syn: {streetwalker}, {street girl}, {hooker}, {hustler},
07:44:10 <itidus21> i watched this is spinal tap today. it occured to me at some point that the main motivation for programming to be performance art is so that programmer fashion can happen
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12:41:59 <ais523> OK, so if you're looking for a (reasonably sensible) syntax for something that can be a list or tuple or both, what should it be?
12:47:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ``: not found
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13:07:03 <dajfsa> ais523: how about {x,y}
13:07:15 <dajfsa> former is probably my favourite although {} are often overloaded for other purposes
13:07:20 <dajfsa> <x,y> is also an option
13:07:26 <dajfsa> [x,y] i find ugly for tuples, (x,y) i find ugly for lists
13:07:38 <dajfsa> ais523: however i would question what your distinction between list and tupl eis
13:07:45 <dajfsa> & if such an overloaded literal actually makes sense given that
13:08:01 <dajfsa> qqqqQQqqqQ*$(@(##(@#*(@#*(@#*(@*(*(@((@~)------------oooooooooooooooooooooooooo===>>>>>>$>$>$>$>$
13:09:03 <dajfsa> nice rant by arc_koen in the logs
13:10:59 <dajfsa> zzo38: what is the internet
13:12:55 <zzo38> dajfsa: Internet is the TCP/IP computer network connected by everything.
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13:35:58 <zzo38> The Wikipedia article for call/cc describes to access the continuation from outside of call/cc, and I think I have made that work with Haskell too by making up a newtype of it.
13:36:21 <atriq> zzo38, isn't that in Control.Monad.Cont?
13:37:37 <zzo38> atriq: There is Cont and ContT in there, but I mean I could make something like this: newtype C r x = C (C r x -> Cont r x); which I think would be the correct type to return the current continuation from callCC.
13:38:07 <atriq> I still haven't understood call/cc
13:38:45 <zzo38> Read the Wikipedia it describe. The esolang wiki article for Unlambda also links to some related information.
13:39:53 <HackEgo> 2011-07-23.txt:00:17:06: <oerjan> very like a whale
13:40:16 <HackEgo> 2010-12-26.txt:05:18:39: <Quadrescence> rms doesn't quite give the same air as jimbo wales
13:40:36 <HackEgo> 2012-09-22.txt:13:40:29: <itidus21> `log wails
13:40:56 <HackEgo> 2012-09-22.txt:13:40:29: <itidus21> `log wails
13:41:07 <HackEgo> 2012-09-22.txt:13:40:56: <HackEgo> 2012-09-22.txt:13:40:29: <itidus21> `log wails
13:41:39 <HackEgo> 2007-11-30.txt:20:08:20: <ihope> Giving the old ones energy would make them temperature wells; creating and destroying particles would make them pressure wells.
13:41:57 <HackEgo> 2009-10-15.txt:13:52:21: <ehird> [The walls, of which there aren't any, melt.]
13:42:11 <HackEgo> 2012-04-20.txt:02:44:02: <elliott> you wills ee
13:42:28 <atriq> In other news, I've finally installed the Haskell Platform correctly on this computer with GHC 7.*
13:48:42 <atriq> Every other time I messed up installing the docs
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14:24:33 <dajfsa> ais523: Welcome to saturday
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15:09:06 <atriq> I'm going to go and read a book
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16:18:16 <dajfsa> Dog dog dog dog dog dog dog dog dog
16:23:05 <JaBoJa> Cat cat cat cat cat cat cat cat cat
16:24:28 <fizzie> Cat dog cat dog cat dog cat dog cat
16:29:15 <kmc> nice, i made a program that dies with ETOOMANYREFS
16:29:35 <kmc> this errno is only produced in one place in the entire Linux kernel
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16:40:21 <JaBoJa> dog dog dog dog dog dog dog dog
16:40:31 <kmc> dong dong dong dong dong dong dong dong
16:40:55 <JaBoJa> fish fish fish fish fish fish fish fish fish
16:41:10 <kmc> Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.
16:41:42 <JaBoJa> Triadobatrachus triadobatrachus triadobatrachus triadobatrachus triadobatrachus triadobatrachus triadobatrachus triadobatrachus triadobatrachus
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17:23:05 <atriq> Well, that was fun
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19:06:33 <oerjan> well that was the end of him, then.
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19:39:31 <atriq> Who even is dajfsa
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21:09:43 <kmc> http://www.msr-inria.inria.fr/events-news/feit-thompson-proved-in-coq
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21:17:22 <oerjan> kmc: wow. i think this is actually quite big.
21:18:34 <shachaf> kmc: roconnor was just talking about that at his talk the other day.
21:18:40 <shachaf> He did some of it, I think.
21:20:51 <oerjan> well he's listed in the sidebar of that page...
21:21:43 <oerjan> not directly related though
21:22:03 <shachaf> Galois Connections, Poset-Enriched Categorical Logic, and Type Theory
21:23:37 <oerjan> it seems to me that the larger the proof of a theorem, the more important it is to get it formally verified
21:23:52 <oerjan> although of course the more difficult, too
21:27:12 <ais523> Vorpal: was it you who changed C-INTERCAL to use an actual bool type?
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21:35:49 <Gregor> Should I buy an accordion?
21:36:14 <atriq> Are you able to play the accordion, or are you able to get accordion lessons?
21:36:30 <Gregor> I am able to play the piano and various other instruments, and am not incompetent.
21:36:40 <atriq> Then the answer is hell
21:37:04 <atriq> Hey, it was your idea
21:37:17 <atriq> Also, go to anime conventions dressed as an esolang
21:37:25 <oerjan> kmc: thanks for giving me my first r/math post, btw :P
21:37:44 <atriq> (should totally be a thing that happens)
21:37:47 <oerjan> actually, first reddit post whatsoever
21:38:24 <shachaf> Feit-Thompson theorem has been, like, TOTALLY checked in Coq
21:38:55 <atriq> My first reddit post was a Muse/Sweet Bro and Hella Jeff mashup on /r/homestuck/ that received one downvote and no comments
21:42:37 <atriq> 8 notes on Tumblr, though!
21:42:53 <ais523> btw, I like Debian's condensed version of INTERCAL's development history: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/version.cgi?info=1;collapse=1;found=0.29-2;package=intercal
21:43:01 <atriq> When me posting a screenshot of a tweet got 12...
21:44:33 <shachaf> kmc: I watched some episodes of that television series.
21:44:39 <kmc> which one?
21:44:50 <kmc> Poset-Enriched Categorical Logic: The Television Series?
21:45:31 <kmc> are you watching it from the beginning?
21:45:42 <shachaf> The ones I watched were the first ones.
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22:04:23 <atriq> I think I've just blown someone's mind by playing along with someone else's joke
22:05:37 <atriq> We've convinced her that Power Rangers was originally a British series
22:05:40 <atriq> And that it was awful
22:11:18 <kmc> power rangers is actually a spinoff of dr. who
22:12:30 <olsner> power doctors, doctor rangers, ranger who
22:12:39 <kmc> 'For example in Mighty Morphin, alien wizard Zordon recruits "teenagers with attitude" to harness the power of the dinosaurs to overcome the forces of evil space alien Rita Repulsa.'
22:12:50 <kmc> you really cannot make this show sound more awful than it actually is
22:16:16 <Sgeo> I liked Power Rangers when I was a kid.
22:16:33 <Sgeo> Although I think I did recognize how repetitive it is
22:16:34 <olsner> alien "wizard", recruits teenagers, fights evil space aliens... that's doctor who indeed
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22:28:09 <shachaf> 15:27 <Puffton> If you guys were to explain monads to a newbie, how would you do it?
22:28:28 <shachaf> I should probably leave now. :-(
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22:50:00 <HackEgo> segorev: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:51:29 <atriq> We also talk about: maths, Haskell, Homestuck, Dwarf Fortress, Finland, television, Gregor's taste in clothes and accessories...
22:51:55 <shachaf> Is Hexham a kind of Finland?
22:52:09 <Gregor> My taste in clothes is AMAZING, TYVM.
22:52:21 <atriq> Hexham's a kind of Dwarf Fortress
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22:52:35 <shachaf> Is television a kind of maths?
22:53:26 <olsner> can you own kinds of maths?
22:53:28 <Gregor> Television /involves/ math :)
22:53:57 <olsner> You wouldn't steal a kind of maths!
22:54:17 <segorev> Television and math? Is this stuff compatible?
22:55:02 <benuphoenix> question: if a system wih 12GB of ram costs $1000 and the same system with 16GB costs $1200, is the sstem with more ram worth it?
22:55:33 <Sgeo> How much would it cost to buy the additional RAM separately?
22:56:07 <ion> Is that ECC RAM or something? Because normal DDR3 RAM is *much* cheaper than that.
22:57:06 <oerjan> <benuphoenix> tggggggggghtjuuy0v= <-- what _is_ with the weird words people use today
22:57:55 <ion> 1333? That’s even cheaper than what i was thinking of.
23:00:07 <benuphoenix> i'm on road. i'll get back to you when i get home
23:00:08 <ion> benuphoenix: In Finland, 16.90 € http://www.verkkokauppa.com/fi/product/15419/cbdjm/Kingston-Valueram-2GB-1333MHz-DDR3-CL9-muistimoduli
23:00:16 <ion> whoops, sorry
23:00:19 <ion> I misread.
23:00:53 <ion> benuphoenix: 19.90 € http://www.verkkokauppa.com/fi/product/4110/dghjq/Kingston-HyperX-blu-4-GB-1600-MHz-DDR3-CL9-muistimoduli
23:01:19 <ion> For some reason, the 4 GiB Valueram 1333 MHz and HyperX 1600 MHz modules have the same price.
23:01:48 <olsner> does byte start with a t in finnish?
23:04:00 <oerjan> they're not big on b's, come to think of it
23:05:44 <olsner> do they even have it at all?
23:06:00 <ion> olsner: Even though everyone learned that you don’t “translate” international unit symbols, Microsoft™ followed by the Finnish media began changing B to t for some reason.
23:06:20 <kmc> shachaf: television is mostly cardboard and drugs and only a little bit math
23:06:30 <ion> +in school
23:06:52 * shachaf read that as "only a little bit meth"
23:07:00 <kmc> watch more breaking bad
23:09:51 <olsner> "Finnish is written with [an] alphabet that includes the distinct characters Ä and Ö, and also several characters (b, c, f, q, w, x, z and å) reserved for words of non-Finnish origin."
23:12:42 <atriq> What's a ridiculous Finnish word that everyone should know?
23:12:55 <ion> Yliesierikoisapulaisvaravaurioraivausvuorovarausratkaisupäällikkö
23:13:09 <atriq> ion, what does that mean?
23:14:05 <atriq> Google reckon's it's probably Finnish for something but has no idea what
23:14:27 <olsner> you need to add spaces to help it parse out the words in the word
23:14:41 <ion> Someone on the Intertubes translated it as “chief superior pre-special assistant vice damage-clearing turn reservation solution executive” but i’m not sure that’s 100 % correct.
23:14:59 <ion> (“pre-special”, huh?)
23:15:50 <olsner> but you're the finnish person here, you should know right?
23:16:17 <ion> I know what it means in Finnish but i’m not familiar enough with title jargon in English.
23:16:35 <atriq> shachaf, there's about half a dozen finns online at any one time
23:17:30 <ion> Okay, the proper translation for esi- in this case would be fore-, not pre-.
23:18:30 <ion> The fore- isn’t really attached to the following word, you’d need to change the word order as well to translate it properly.
23:18:37 <ion> I mean, the esi-
23:18:44 <olsner> yliesi is like over-pre-something?
23:19:35 <atriq> Isn't it about half two in the morning in Finland
23:19:38 <lambdabot> Local time for ion is Sun, 23 Sep 2012 02:19:38 +0300
23:19:51 <atriq> THAT MEANS GOODNIGHT
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23:20:11 <olsner> why did he quit because it is late in finland?
23:20:33 <oerjan> sure, everyone knows hexham is in finland
23:20:38 <ion> Here’s a long single word. The previous one was a compound word. kumarreksituteskenteleentuvaisehkollaismaisekkuudellisenneskenteluttelemattomammuuksissansakaankopahan
23:21:10 <olsner> why is that not compound? is it all suffixes and conjugations?
23:22:02 <olsner> looks like it breaks google translate somehow, maybe they have a finnish parser that is actually trying to parse the word
23:23:03 <oerjan> doesn't google translate work purely statistically with no builtin language knowledge?
23:24:51 <olsner> oh well, I took the time to rate this translation "unhelpful"
23:29:17 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's probably written in a brainfuck derivative
23:29:49 <olsner> there should be a Gerbil Space Program
23:30:03 <oerjan> it's a little known fact
23:30:27 <oerjan> the greatest success of the gluing things to skateboards principle
23:30:36 <olsner> thinking about it, wouldn't gerbils need practically just as big rockets to get into orbit as the human space program?
23:31:39 <oerjan> i thought the size of the rocket would be proportional to the mass of the payload
23:33:01 <olsner> yes, but is the mass of the payload proportional to the size of humans?
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23:34:46 <olsner> oh, apparently the average adult gerbil weighs about 70 g ... they're a lot more smaller than I thought
23:35:21 <oerjan> olsner clearly has been thinking of gerbils as fearsome human-sized monsters
23:37:47 <benuphoenix> which is better: intel h67 chipset or intel b75 chipset?\
23:40:27 <benuphoenix> Sgeo, ion, oerjan? Continuing conversation from before...
23:44:23 <Sgeo> I can tell you which language I'm currently mostly interested in: Clojure. This is completely unhelpful for your question, though.
23:45:20 <benuphoenix> oh...h67 is sandy bridge and b75 is ivy bridge
23:45:31 <shachaf> Sgeo: Wait, you're interested in Clojure?!
23:47:11 <Sgeo> (dotimes [n 500] (println "Yes, shachaf."))
23:47:22 <olsner> oerjan: yes, something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephoartigasia_monesi
23:47:26 <shachaf> benuphoenix: You want Haswell, dude.
23:47:35 <Sgeo> shachaf, what's wrong with Clojure?
23:48:17 <olsner> (no, actually I was just thinking approximately rabbit-sized)
23:50:11 <oerjan> olsner: so not like these, then? http://www.webcomicsnation.com/shaenongarrity/narbonic_plus/series.php?view=archive&chapter=14370
23:55:39 <olsner> assuming the gerbils were also working on this in the '60s, they'd need about a thousand gerbils' weight in computers
00:02:10 <kmc> shachaf: did you know about SMEP?
00:02:51 <kmc> prevents the CPU from executing user-accessible memory in kernel mode
00:03:34 <shachaf> Yes, you mentioned it in here a few days ago, I think.
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00:04:04 <kmc> this will result in kernel exploits being more interesting :)
00:05:15 <kmc> i think it does not actually provide much security, because userspace NX exploitation is already such a well-developed field
00:07:34 <shachaf> I wonder how much overhead all these things have.
00:07:45 <kmc> SMEP should have basically no overhead
00:07:54 <kmc> if you're talking about processor performance
00:08:09 <shachaf> Yes, but things like -fstack-protector do have some.
00:08:18 <shachaf> I mean overall compared to "if we didn't have to worry about security".
00:08:21 <kmc> i did some measurements for the mosh hardening project
00:08:28 <kmc> results vary
00:08:32 <shachaf> Alternatively "if we had better ways to deal with security issues than things like -fstack-protector".
00:08:49 <shachaf> (Which we do, of course. But anyway.)
00:08:59 <kmc> well, yes and no
00:09:01 <kmc> defense in depth :)
00:10:54 <kmc> i had this argument with ezyang when he suggested that SafeHaskell provides browser-quality sandboxing "for free"
00:11:18 <kmc> theoretically, sure
00:11:24 * shachaf is very suspicious of things like SafeHaskell.
00:11:30 <shachaf> And SecureECMAScript and all those.
00:11:37 <kmc> but how much do you trust the GHC runtime system, a 50,000 line 20 year old concurrent C program?
00:11:54 <kmc> not to mention the implementation of SafeHaskell itself, which is very new
00:15:51 <kmc> of course we all know that writing secure C code is easy if you are not an idiot
00:16:00 <kmc> (an idiot is anyone who ever makes a mistake)
00:16:57 <kmc> that's why i write all my C code using randomly generated identifier names and no whitespace
00:17:06 <kmc> if you can't understand it, you have no business programming in C to begin with
00:17:25 <Sgeo> Isn't the JVM supposed to be a secure sandbox, in theory?
00:17:30 <Sgeo> At least for usages such as applets?
00:17:38 <shachaf> > (ord 'l' - ord 'h') * 26
00:17:41 <kmc> omg clojure
00:18:05 <shachaf> kmc: Don't disclojure, man.
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00:19:15 <Sgeo> And, well, "supposed tp" doesn't always seem to work out :(
00:19:26 <kmc> sure, in theory JVM is secure, but it might have a bug, and anything which might have a bug is no better than nothing at all
00:19:36 <kmc> that's why i run all my programs in ring 0
00:19:47 <kmc> i mean, linux might have a privilege escalation bug, so there is no point to even running any code in userspace
00:19:53 <kmc> ok troll mode disengage
00:20:13 * kmc pushes harder
00:20:41 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14xcsz43Kuw#t=16s
00:21:29 <lambdabot> "trolololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololol...
00:21:55 <kmc> i think a trollcycle is a bicycle where the brakes don't work
00:22:08 <shachaf> kmc: That's just a rollcycle
00:22:34 <shachaf> I hope y'all're watching that video!!!!!!
00:22:36 <Sgeo> `run java -jar clojure-1.4.0.jar "(str [1 2 3])"
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00:22:57 <HackEgo> Exception in thread "main" java.io.FileNotFoundException: (str [1 2 3]) (No such file or directory) \.at java.io.FileInputStream.open(Native Method) \.at java.io.FileInputStream.<init>(FileInputStream.java:137) \.at java.io.FileInputStream.<init>(FileInputStream.java:96) \.at clojure.lang.Compiler.loadFile(Compiler.java:6909) \..at clojure.main$load_script.invoke(main.clj:283) \.at
00:23:15 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ clojure-1.4.0.jar \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
00:23:28 <shachaf> `run mv clojure-1.4.0.jar /tmp/junk
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00:23:44 <Sgeo> `run mv /tmp/junk/clojure-1.4.0.jar ~
00:23:47 <HackEgo> mv: cannot stat `/tmp/junk/clojure-1.4.0.jar': No such file or directory
00:24:18 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
00:24:30 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /tmp/junk: No such file or directory
00:24:33 <shachaf> This channel doesn't need a Clojurebot.
00:24:50 <Sgeo> It's a better clojurebot than clojurebot
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00:25:53 <Sgeo> I don't entirely get what happened with /tmp/junk
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03:08:40 <zzo38> Do you know the call/cc yin yang?
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03:38:18 <shachaf> kmc: getcc :: MonadCont m => m (m a) is a fun Cont thing.
03:43:19 <shachaf> You need fix to implement it, though.
03:43:39 <shachaf> (Since you can use it to make infinite loops, of course.)
03:43:58 <Sgeo> I wonder if the delimited continuations library that currently exists for Clojure allows for the continuations to be passed to untransformed code
03:44:02 <Sgeo> Because that would be cool
03:44:27 <Sgeo> And for some bizarre reason I'm under the impression that it should be theoretically possible
03:44:53 <shachaf> What's the most unclojury topic in the world?
03:45:03 <shachaf> I bet Sgeo could relate it to Clojure.
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03:49:46 <kmc> "In C, a compound literal designates an unnamed object with static or automatic storage duration. In C++, a compound literal designates a temporary object, which only lives until the end of its full-expression. As a result, well-defined C code that takes the address of a subobject of a compound literal can be undefined in C++."
03:50:30 <kmc> (compound literal is something like (struct foo) { 1, 2, 3 } )
03:50:49 <shachaf> Does that work with arrays?
03:51:19 <Sgeo> Didn't C++ used to just compile to C?
03:51:19 <kmc> according to GCC manual
03:51:38 <kmc> Sgeo: C++ is a language not an implementation
03:51:51 <kmc> you're right that some C++ implementations work this way, including the first implementations
03:52:02 <kmc> 'Cfront was the original compiler for C++ (then known as "C with Classes") from around 1983, which converted C++ to C'
03:52:32 <kmc> Comeau C++ works this way too
03:53:14 <kmc> compound literals weren't in C until C99
03:53:20 <kmc> presumably if a C++
03:53:51 <kmc> presumably a C++-to-C compiler translates C++ compound literals to something else in C
03:54:09 <kmc> oh, but compound literals aren't in C++ either -- supporting them in C++ mode is a GNU extension
03:54:30 <kmc> will there eventually be a version of C++ based on C99? is C++11 based on C99?
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04:16:22 <Sgeo> kmc, what do you think about emacs?
04:26:16 <itidus21> i know the question was addressed to kmc, but, emacs is a substandard nes emulator
04:28:37 <ion> GNU GRUB 2 is a much better bootloader than Emacs.
04:32:10 <Sgeo> When I was in 6th grade, I thought my book saying that some people consider emacs to be almost like an OS meant that I could literally boot into it from the CD.
04:32:22 <Sgeo> I was hoping that that would help me fix my inability to boot my computer.
04:33:10 * shachaf waits for the Clojure tie-in.
04:33:35 <Sgeo> Clojure is currently my main motivation to learn Emacs... so that's a sort of tie-in.
04:34:03 <Sgeo> You asked for it!
04:34:09 <monqy> shachaf professional clairvoyant???
04:34:29 <ion> When i was in 6th grade i hadn’t ever seen a CD in real life.
04:34:45 <shachaf> monqy: not professional :'(
04:34:50 <shachaf> monqy: will you pay me for it?????????
04:34:52 <monqy> could've fooled me!
04:34:55 <monqy> I would give you my money
04:35:02 <shachaf> monqy: do you have a money
04:35:03 <monqy> if you can turn it into future telling
04:35:14 <monqy> I don't have money though
04:35:53 <shachaf> monqy::;what if i giv emo you moa a money?
04:37:14 <monqy> give money to yourself and then maybe you will be able to tell the future for yourself
04:37:18 <monqy> what is the future like
04:37:47 <shachaf> in the future i havea as much amoney as the present :'(
04:39:56 <itidus21> in the future there will be flying cars and public holograms
05:12:59 <zzo38> The MMC5 Famicom mapper can use ExRAM as an extra nametable or attribute table, but when used in this mode, it is write-only, and if the PPU is not rendering, it will write zero instead of the value you are trying to write. Do you know what logic causes this to happen?
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05:51:46 <zzo38> What does a RAM chip normally do if some of the address lines are not connected?
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07:04:39 <atriq> Is newtype CList a = CList ((a -> CList a -> a) -> a) a Functor?
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07:05:33 <shachaf> atriq: Doesn't look like a Functor, since it's invariant (?).
07:06:03 <atriq> It's meant to be a homogenous church list
07:06:36 <shachaf> Typed Church lists are generally homogeneous, aren't they?
07:06:45 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b -> b) -> b -> [a] -> b
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07:06:59 <shachaf> type ChurchList a = forall b. (a -> b -> b) -> b -> b
07:07:42 <atriq> Or rather, an infinite church list, apparently
07:08:15 <atriq> (a -> CList a -> a) -> a
07:08:24 <atriq> I've just woken up
07:08:34 <atriq> I shouldn't read edwardk when I'm half asleep
07:08:40 <shachaf> Are you trying for a Scott list instead of a Church list?
07:08:40 <atriq> And I shouldn't follow my dreams
07:09:19 <shachaf> Or "Boehm-Berarducci", as Oleg apparently pointed out?
07:09:42 <shachaf> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/100508
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07:13:18 <atriq> My attempts to do a church list without making a new type result in infinite types
07:13:58 <shachaf> You're probably trying for a Scott list instead of a Churchy list.
07:14:43 <shachaf> Such that clist (:) [] == actualList
07:14:53 <atriq> fix (pair 1 . unsafeCoerce) seems to work
07:15:26 <atriq> I'm not doing a Church list
07:15:37 <atriq> I'm doing something which until now I thought was called a church list
07:15:50 <shachaf> OK -- you need recursive types for a recursive Scott encoding.
07:25:58 <atriq> Thank you, shachaf
07:26:02 <atriq> You've been a real help
07:27:14 <atriq> With my SECOND HASKELL OBFUSCATION
07:30:48 <atriq> :t \h t c n -> c h (t c n)
07:30:49 <lambdabot> forall t t1 t2 t3. t -> ((t -> t2 -> t3) -> t1 -> t2) -> (t -> t2 -> t3) -> t1 -> t3
07:31:03 <atriq> :t ap (const ap) (ap (const (ap (const ap))) (ap (const (ap (const const))) (ap (const (ap id)) const)))
07:31:04 <lambdabot> forall b a b1 b2. b -> ((b -> a -> b1) -> b2 -> a) -> (b -> a -> b1) -> b2 -> b1
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07:45:05 <atriq> I'm gonna need unsafeCoerce anyway
07:57:21 <monqy> what did you do and why did you do it
07:57:53 <monqy> more questions: why didn't you not do it
07:58:10 <monqy> guilt and shame: you could have avoided it
07:58:31 <shachaf> monqy: Could I have avoided guilt and shame?
07:58:43 <monqy> are you guilty of something shameful
07:59:00 <atriq> monqy, I used to many unsafeCoerces, for fun, because MY MIND COMMANDED TO ME, yes and I did
07:59:28 <monqy> shachaf: you may or may not have already avoided it
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08:04:13 <atriq> > Identity 1 >> Identity 'a'
08:04:21 <atriq> > runIdentity (Identity 1 >> Identity 'a')
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08:38:29 <oerjan> 00:25:53: <Sgeo> I don't entirely get what happened with /tmp/junk
08:38:29 <oerjan> 00:26:50: <shachaf> I don't either.
08:39:32 <oerjan> i am guessing that it disappeared when HackEgo's chroot was wiped out; only the HackEgo directory is kept in the repository.
08:40:14 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr \ var
08:40:28 <oerjan> `run echo test >/tmp/test123
08:40:47 <oerjan> `run echo test >/tmp/test123; ls /tmp
08:41:21 <oerjan> everything you want kept needs to be put in there
08:42:26 <Sgeo> `run echo test >/blah
08:42:30 <HackEgo> bash: /blah: Permission denied
08:52:09 <oerjan> <atriq> Is newtype CList a = CList ((a -> CList a -> a) -> a) a Functor?
08:53:07 <oerjan> that scott thing aside, i think that should be newtype CList a = CList (forall b. (a -> CList a -> b) -> b)
08:53:28 <oerjan> in which case it might be a functor
08:55:37 <oerjan> fmap f (CList l) = CList $ \p -> l (\a as -> p (f a) (fmap f as)) or so
08:56:47 <oerjan> not sure if that lambda needs to be extracted to get an explicit type annotation
08:57:37 <oerjan> probably not, since that's similar to legal stuff with runST
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09:13:53 <shachaf> kmc: Your FAQ is at the top of the Google results for «haskell faq» now!
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10:44:57 <oerjan> > (0 :+ 1) ** (0 :+ 1)
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10:59:00 <HackEgo> xzy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
11:00:13 <oerjan> although it's very quiet this time of week/day
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11:25:40 <fizzie> oerjan: A time of week/day that's not a weekday.
11:27:35 <oerjan> well basically _both_ the time of week and time of day are about pessimal now
11:32:39 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure I had a week-wrapped graph too, but http://xn--nxa.zem.fi/~fis/test7h.png says 9-10am Finnish time (it's now about 14:32) is more pessimal.
11:32:56 <fizzie> Not that this is much better.
11:33:10 <fizzie> (That's also slightly old.)
11:34:04 <fizzie> Okay, http://xn--nxa.zem.fi/~fis/test12.png seems to suggest the difference is smaller; that's IIRC a newer plot.
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11:35:36 <oerjan> it had cpressey and alise in it :P
11:36:04 <fizzie> The one before had ehird and AnMaster, so...
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11:51:15 <oerjan> no, and if it did, that wouldn't be the right syntax
11:51:42 <AnotherTest> sorry my haskell knowledge is virtually zero
11:51:58 <oerjan> it has the three operators above
11:52:35 <oerjan> because it is more useful for it to be 1.
11:52:49 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Bool.Bool)
11:53:23 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Bool.Bool)
11:54:21 <oerjan> for ^ and ^^, presumably it makes no sense to waste time checking the first argument for equality to 0
11:54:37 <oerjan> for **, you have to ask the IEEE floating point standard
11:55:03 <oerjan> also for ^ , because it makes polynomials work naturally
11:57:21 <oerjan> > [sum [a*x^n | (a,n) <- zip [0..] [1,2,3]] | x <- [0..5]]
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12:03:54 <lambdabot> 179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697894230657273430081157732675805...
12:05:00 <oerjan> > length . show $ round (1/0)
12:05:26 <oerjan> round always gives an integral result
12:05:30 <lambdabot> forall a b. (RealFrac a, Integral b) => a -> b
12:06:19 <oerjan> i recall that round(1/0) thing from before...
12:06:20 <lambdabot> forall a. (RealFloat a) => a -> Bool
12:06:25 <lambdabot> 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
12:07:14 <oerjan> > 1.79769e308 :: Double
12:07:20 <oerjan> > 1.7977e308 :: Double
12:07:44 <oerjan> it's basically converting the largest possible Double to Integer
12:08:25 <lambdabot> http://www.spellingcenter.com/fininity
12:08:26 <lambdabot> Title: fininity. Suggestions for fininity provided by Spelling Center of the the Free O ...
12:08:31 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `t' in the constraints:
12:08:36 <oerjan> the round thing is probably an accident
12:10:33 <lambdabot> http://twitter.com/pyyvaara/statuses/200636046323617795
12:10:33 <lambdabot> Title: Twitter / Pyyvaara: Just met a Finn! She was jamming ...
12:11:05 <oerjan> > floatDigits (undefined :: Double) -- no accident
12:11:15 <lambdabot> 182012343000035853826900847249801744536541097171706064167428854069310344820...
12:12:16 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Float.RealFloat
12:12:30 <oerjan> isInfinite isn't definite for integrals
12:12:55 <oerjan> or tuples, for that matter
12:13:13 <AnotherTest> let inf = decodeFloat (1/0 - 1 ) in isInfinite (first inf ^ second inf)
12:13:25 <AnotherTest> > let inf = decodeFloat (1/0 - 1 ) in isInfinite (first inf ^ second inf)
12:13:26 <lambdabot> No instance for (Control.Arrow.Arrow (,))
12:13:33 <oerjan> you realize that's not what decodeFloat does, right?
12:14:19 <oerjan> If decodeFloat x yields (m,n), then x is equal in value to m*b^^n, where b is the floating-point radix, [...]
12:14:52 <oerjan> > 4503599627370495 * 2^972
12:14:53 <lambdabot> 179769313486231550856124328384506240234343437157459335924404872448581845754...
12:17:29 <oerjan> > 4503599627370495 * 2^972 :: Double
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16:38:18 <kmc> shachaf: did you know about gcc -finstrument-functions
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18:28:49 <atriq> Can anyone recommend some software for using a desktop recorder thingy as a webcam?
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18:44:33 <shachaf> I can't say that I recommend such software, atriq
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19:09:39 <kmc> shachaf: do you know of a tool which is like strace or ltrace but traces regular userspace function calls?
19:09:47 <kmc> it should be possible to build such a thing with Valgrind or Pin
19:10:01 <kmc> but i have not yet found a premade strace-like solution
19:11:18 <shachaf> kmc: As in every call(/jump) instruction?
19:12:13 <kmc> probably only calls
19:12:30 <shachaf> But, like, tail calls, man!
19:12:35 <shachaf> Anyway, nothing comes to mind.
19:12:53 <kmc> maybe you would log calls and jumps, but ignore them when the target is in the middle of a function
19:12:57 <shachaf> gdb might be able to do it by single-stepping?
19:13:04 <kmc> (defined according to the placement of symbols in .text)
19:13:10 <kmc> yeah, that will be hellaciously slow though
19:13:15 <kmc> plus again, not a ready-made solution
19:13:49 <kmc> even a breakpoint at every function entry will be very slow
19:14:06 <shachaf> To be fair, valgrind is also very slow.
19:14:23 <shachaf> strace would be very slow if it did its stracey thing at every function call, too.
19:14:56 <kmc> depends what you mean by the "stracey thing"
19:15:10 <kmc> it involves context switching to the strace process, and then some additional ptrace system calls
19:15:22 <kmc> none of which should be necessary for userspace call tracing
19:15:34 <kmc> or for system call tracing for that matter -- but system calls are slow either way
19:15:49 <shachaf> Yes, but they're the equivalent of what gdb would do. :-)
19:15:55 * shachaf is aware that's not a very good argument.
19:19:05 <kmc> is valgrind actually that slow even with the null tool?
19:19:20 <kmc> the default memcheck tool is slow because it has to do a bunch of memory accounting
19:20:46 <shachaf> "Callgrind will not be able to collect any information, including calls, but it will have at most a slowdown of around 4, which is the minimum Valgrind overhead"
19:23:15 <kmc> i am on this train of thought because i realized that I find strace to be much more useful than GDB, as a debugging tool
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20:02:30 <atriq> https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/557161_435025123200414_1140631525_n.jpg
20:02:33 <atriq> Do I count as sane?
20:03:44 <oerjan> insane, and very very hungry. stay away from that guy.
20:03:56 <shachaf> kmc: Depends on the type of debugging.
20:06:33 <shachaf> It's at a different abstraction level, and the kernel-userspace boundary happens to be really nice for "what is this program really doing, in the end?"
20:07:12 <kmc> if i attach userspace tracing to some random program, i won't know what the functions are anyway
20:07:36 <kmc> but also, i like that strace immediately gives you some probably useful output, which you can then post-process in ad-hoc ways, search in vim, etc
20:07:57 <kmc> you don't particularly have to decide what 'experiment' you're going to run
20:08:55 <kmc> by the way I just tested how slow 'ls' gets if you put a breakpoint on every function
20:09:02 <kmc> it took almost 2 minutes to list a small directory
20:09:45 <shachaf> What sbout gdb in recotd mofe?
20:09:57 <kmc> what's that
20:10:19 <shachaf> The reverse-debugging thing.
20:10:39 <shachaf> Doesn't it have all the same information?
20:11:09 <kmc> the function call history?
20:11:10 <kmc> yeah, i guess so
20:11:13 <kmc> i have no idea how it works
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20:31:13 <zzo38> Is there such thing as discrete logic hardware optimizer?
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20:45:21 <zzo38> I managed to make the call/cc yin yang with Haskell, yesterday.
20:48:08 <nortti> surprisngly many people don't seem to notice away message
20:53:06 <nortti> my friend semt me messages for 10 hours while I was /away IRL
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21:13:40 <kmc> a 10x programmer isn't cool
21:13:45 <kmc> you know what's cool? a 10,000x programmer
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22:04:59 <coppro> if the GIL weren't going to screw me over
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23:00:24 <Arc_Koen> my town organizes a game that ends tomorrow where you have to find a way to write 2012 as the result of a calculation using only consecutive numbers 1, 2, 3, ... in growing order (starting with 1) and operations +, -, *, /, ^, sqrt, factorial, and parentheses
23:00:50 <Arc_Koen> and they provide an example of such a calculation, with result 2011.
23:01:36 <Arc_Koen> the example uses only 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, so it trivially gives a solution for 2012 in 7 (using the same calculation, -6 + 7)
23:01:59 <Arc_Koen> finding a solution in 6 is easy - actually there seem to be a lot of them
23:02:51 <Arc_Koen> but I couldn't find one in 5... so since it's the last day I decided to make a program to compute all possible calculations; for 6 it found many solutions, but for 5 it terminated without any.
23:05:34 <Arc_Koen> in case of a tie for the shortest answer, they will randomly select one of the tying players... finding in 6 was way to easy to avoid that :(
23:06:38 <coppro> so basically if you can write 2012 as some of those operations using each number from 1 to 5 only once, you'll win?
23:07:02 <Arc_Koen> only once, and in the right order
23:07:49 <Arc_Koen> I found ((1+2)!)!*3-(4+6!/5) in one minute but the 6 comes before the 5 so it doesn't work
23:07:54 <coppro> oh, in the right order
23:08:47 <Arc_Koen> the question is somehow ambiguous though - for instance they list "- (subtraction)" as a valid operation but not "unary negation", yet I'm not sure they'd refuse a solution starting with -1
23:09:32 <Arc_Koen> also it all works with integers, and they don't say if ": (division)" is integer division or real division
23:11:19 <Arc_Koen> I can give you the 2011 example to help
23:11:33 <Arc_Koen> if you do find a solution in 5 though, please don't tell me
23:11:56 <oerjan> i know what i'd do if they'd included logarithms too :P
23:25:00 <zzo38> Is it possible to make circuits described using discrete logic to be compiled into a native code which can emulate this circuit?
23:29:02 <oerjan> ais523: i guess you know the answer to that
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23:47:24 <Arc_Koen> coppro: all my solutions start from 2016 = 6! + 6^4, with 6 being either 6 or 2*3 or 3! or (1+2)! etc., and the other numbers making - 4.
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00:04:57 <lambdabot> [2,6,24,120,720,5040,40320,362880,3628800,39916800,479001600,6227020800,871...
00:05:40 <oerjan> > sqrt <$> scanl1 (*) [2..]
00:05:41 <lambdabot> [1.4142135623730951,2.449489742783178,4.898979485566356,10.954451150103322,...
00:05:54 <oerjan> > sqrt <$> scanl1 (*) [2..] :: [Float]
00:05:55 <lambdabot> [1.4142135,2.4494898,4.8989797,10.954452,26.832815,70.99296,200.7984,602.39...
00:06:32 <itidus21> zzo38: in short im gonna assume the answer is yes. the interesting part of the question is the word possible. given that its almost certainly possible.. then looking at whether it's worthwhile. if it's not worthwhile then it's almost urgent in #esoteric i think
00:08:00 <oerjan> i'm with itidus21 on this. as long as i don't have to do any of this urgent work.
00:08:00 <itidus21> i think it may be too useful for #esoteric
00:08:40 <itidus21> oerjan: well you calculated the square root of 2012
00:08:40 <zzo38> Almost, not quite.
00:20:36 <Arc_Koen> I don't think division can actually be used
00:28:10 <hagb4rd> > [(x^(1/y)) | x <- [1..10], y <- [1..5]]
00:28:11 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `t' in the constraints:
00:28:49 <oerjan> > [(x**(1/y)) | x <- [1..10], y <- [1..5]]
00:28:50 <lambdabot> [1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,1.0,2.0,1.4142135623730951,1.2599210498948732,1.1892071150...
00:29:34 <oerjan> because ^ takes a natural number exponent
00:31:13 <hagb4rd> > [(x^^(1/y)) | x <- [1..10], y <- [1..5]]
00:31:15 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `t' in the constraints:
00:31:39 <oerjan> ^^ takes an integral one
00:34:38 <oerjan> ^ ^^ ** go from being restrictive of the exponent to being restrictive on the base
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01:22:27 <ion> > x^^(1/5)
01:22:28 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `t' in the constraints:
01:22:35 <shachaf> Expr should have a thing where it uses observable sharing to show you the true graph.
01:23:04 <ion> What would it look like? let a = x * x in a * a * x?
01:23:27 <shachaf> ion: I DUNNO, MAN, THAT'S YOUR JOB
01:23:52 <shachaf> It should draw a 2-dimensional graph.
01:24:18 <ion> > x^^(1/5) :: Expr
01:24:19 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `t' in the constraints:
01:24:28 <ion> I take it Expr isn’t Fractional?
01:24:45 <ion> > (x :: Expr)^^(1/5)
01:24:46 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `t' in the constraints:
01:25:44 <ion> Oh, wait. My bad. I’m brainfarting.
01:26:01 <ion> It was supposed to be -5, not 1/5.
01:26:12 <ion> > x**(-1/5)
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01:35:54 <shachaf> The place I'm in is playing a television program.
01:36:17 <shachaf> I can't make out the words but I can guess where the laugh track will play just from how people are talking.
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02:15:52 <kmc> is it actually a laugh track or is it live studio laughter?
02:16:40 <ais523> <FOLDOC> Here is a plausible conversation that never actually happened:
02:16:46 <shachaf> It sounded exactly the same every time.
02:17:12 <shachaf> But it's probably a separate track regardless of whether it was recorded while people were watching the show or elsewhile. :-)
02:17:37 <ais523> <zzo38> Is it possible to make circuits described using discrete logic to be compiled into a native code which can emulate this circuit? ← sure, you can do it with programs like GHDL (which compiles hardware descriptions to gcc intermediate representation, and uses gcc to take it the rest of the way)
02:21:49 * kmc should learn how UNIX session and controlling terminal stuff works, one day
02:22:14 <kmc> i want to fork, and have the child exec a shell (connected to the user's terminal) that keeps running even if the parent dies
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02:24:47 <kmc> no, that's the problem
02:24:58 <kmc> the magic incantation for detaching and daemonizing is well documented
02:25:05 <kmc> but i haven't been able to find what I'm trying to do
02:25:11 <kmc> so i will have to actually understand what's going on :/
02:30:13 <shachaf> When you understand you should tell me.
02:30:23 <shachaf> So I don't have to look it up, if it ever comes to that.
02:30:41 <kmc> maybe i'll write a blog post!
02:31:08 <shachaf> kmc: Your weblog's URL is way too long.
02:31:20 * shachaf types it by hand each time.
02:31:31 <kmc> i type "main\t" ;)
02:31:55 <shachaf> I use Incognito Mode so it's not in my history.
02:44:31 <zzo38> What format of hardware descriptions can it use?
02:44:40 <zzo38> Can it use discrete logic format?
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03:37:37 <shachaf> "Yes. Something lingering, with boiling oil in it, I fancy. Something of that sort. I think boiling oil occurs in it, but I'm not sure. I know it's something humorous, but lingering, with either boiling oil or melted lead. Come, come, don't fret — I'm not a bit angry."
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04:01:21 <kmc> apparently the Samsung Galaxy S3 supports GLONASS
04:01:50 <kmc> because Russia has a 25% import duty on non-GLONASS GPS devices, or something
04:02:29 <pikhq> And it's rather cheap to add now.
04:02:40 <kmc> why's that?
04:04:25 <pikhq> IIRC they extended the signal sent by the satellites so that it's not *vastly* different from GPS if you listen to the right band.
04:04:57 <pikhq> Kinda like how Galileo support is easy to add to a GPS receiver.
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04:18:42 <shachaf> kmc: I wrote a GHC extension to allow things like 1e6 to be integer literals.
04:18:51 <shachaf> kmc: elliott says you'll hate me.
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04:24:22 <kmc> i don't hate you!
04:24:28 <kmc> how hard was it to write?
04:24:38 <kmc> is there some fancy way to write syntactic extensions now?
04:27:46 <shachaf> The codebase is pretty messy, though. :-(
04:28:00 <shachaf> Every time I read GHC code I get a strong urge to clean things up.
04:28:12 * pikhq mutters at the French revolution a bit
04:28:23 <pikhq> The reason why the kilogram is a base unit with an SI prefix is them.
04:28:39 <pikhq> "grave" sounded like a German title of nobility, which was against their ideals.
04:28:49 <pikhq> So, s/grave/kilogram/ jerks
04:28:55 <shachaf> kmc: I don't know about any fancy way.
04:29:59 <shachaf> I just found some code in compiler/rename/ that handled OverLits and changed HsFractionals with denominator 1 into HsIntegers.
04:30:25 <shachaf> There's some code for handling OverloadedStrings in the same directory, so I'm hoping this was the right place to put it.
04:30:35 <pikhq> (the gram was before then a synonym for the milligrave)
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04:59:40 <kmc> jours sans-culottides
05:00:12 <zzo38> O, so that is why kilogram is base unit?
05:00:48 <zzo38> O, now I can see the above text. At first, I just saw "the gram was before then a synonym for the milligrave" and thought of it too.
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05:16:33 <olsner> someone in here was talking about a cpu with an execute instruction a while ago
05:17:00 <olsner> the TMS9900 cpu had one of those that worked almost exactly like that
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05:18:45 <zzo38> That works like how?
05:22:40 <olsner> runs one instruction using register values from some memory buffer
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05:33:41 <pikhq> zzo38: Yeah. Having a different name for the kilogram makes the whole thing rather cleaner.
05:36:18 <olsner> z/Architecture has a similar thing as well (and there, trying to EXECUTE another EXECUTE instruction causes an exception)
05:57:51 <olsner> oh, and any cpu with hardware single-stepping can kind of simulate an execute instruction
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06:12:12 <zzo38> If you have a Famicom cartridge with CIRAM A10 connected directly to PA6, then in a software emulation compiled from the hardware description, can this automatically be optimized out?
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06:24:32 <shachaf> kmc: http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/7266
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11:40:37 <Sgeo> ....Bitmanagement is claiming that BS Contact is "state of the art computer graphics"
11:40:54 <Sgeo> It's a VRML viewer
11:41:07 <Sgeo> ..Well, maybe it supports newer stuff these days *shrug*
11:48:20 <Sgeo> 300 euros for a VRML viewer that used to be free?
11:48:43 <Sgeo> (I mean, they have a trial version that puts an annoying flying logo in every scene)
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12:10:09 <itidus21> is it held up by a patent or something?
12:10:26 <itidus21> like, what is dependant on this bs contact thing
12:10:49 <itidus21> and they suddenly increased the price?
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12:10:57 <Sgeo> Although that was back in the Blaxxun days. Blaxxun is dead now, and I think Bitmanagement owns the Intellectual Property
12:11:21 <Sgeo> Blaxxun now Bitmanagement owns the software, Cybertown just uses/used it
12:14:04 <itidus21> what they're claiming is "State of the Art computer graphics with continued development since 1995 e.g. texturing with flash, physics or multi user"
12:37:58 <zzo38> Do you like this so far? http://esolangs.org/wiki/REVER
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12:43:24 <itidus21> it's completely useless for real-world development, it's therefore a perfect esolang
12:44:22 <itidus21> real-world meaning paid-to-code-with
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13:22:06 <zzo38> yinYang = join $ liftA2 runCT (getCC <* lift (putChar '\n')) (getCC <* lift (putChar '*'));
13:33:41 <itidus21> in brainfuck i like the + - < > instructions
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13:36:20 <itidus21> i think that you could have a machine with 4 plastic buttons + - < > and a finite toroidal tape and do a lot with it
13:36:33 <itidus21> i guess its quite strange such things don't exist
13:38:33 <fizzie> Possibly, but mechanical calculators are real fancy.
13:38:56 <fizzie> There's one that looks really much like http://www.arm.ac.uk/history/instruments/Mechanical-calculator.jpg at my grandmother's house.
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13:39:01 <itidus21> i was actually thinking of a chessboard where both players control things via 4 such buttons :D
13:39:34 <fizzie> It's somewhat rusty and doesn't really want to move, but it's still fancy.
13:39:49 <fizzie> There was some kind of a thing for division in it.
13:41:23 <fizzie> Actually I think http://mrhonner.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/odhner-mechanical-calculator.jpg is an even more exact match; I remember those thumb-twiddly bits and the crank with a pin.
13:41:28 <fizzie> Possibly it's a clone of that.
13:41:28 <itidus21> ok picture it like this.. a chess player goes to make his move.. he presses < and > until he reaches the piece to move.. then he presses + and - until he sets the piece to be empty
13:41:55 <itidus21> then he presses < and > until he reaches destination square, and finally presses + and - until the move has been completed
13:42:22 <itidus21> that is what is in my imagination
13:44:12 <itidus21> "he" because few self respecting women would engage in such pursuits.. i don't mean to be sexist though
13:45:26 <itidus21> infact i doubt anyone with self-respect would play chess in such a way
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14:03:19 <kmc> i like it when someone says something blatantly sexist and suffixes it with "i don't mean to be sexist though"
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14:28:01 <atriq> I was doing so well!
14:30:12 <atriq> And immediately said "Hello!"
14:31:54 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, have you seen the Homestuck update?
14:32:26 <atriq> I reckon that's a no
14:32:32 <atriq> See you in a couple of hours!
14:37:17 <atriq> Sgeo, do the listy thing
14:37:26 <atriq> You're the Heir of Lists
14:39:37 <coppro> what is the listy thing?
14:39:47 <coppro> unless this is intended to be a non sequitur
14:39:49 <coppro> in which case go ahead
14:39:52 <atriq> For Homestuck fans
14:39:52 <coppro> also every new character sucks
14:39:58 <coppro> well I get the reference
14:40:04 <coppro> It just seems like a non sequitur
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14:43:50 <coppro> 10:39:52 < coppro> also every new character sucks
14:44:13 <atriq> One of those characters is severely autistic.
14:44:31 <atriq> Another is pretty awful
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14:44:56 <atriq> Yeah, Cronus does suck
14:45:08 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: standard internet homestuck spoilers rule: the statute of limitations for spoilers expires immediately
14:45:18 <atriq> No, I just talk to myself
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14:45:53 <atriq> You know what the fandom thinks Eridan is?
14:46:04 <atriq> Oh, just go away and play the update
14:46:06 <kmc> hello atriq
14:47:00 <Phantom_Hoover> i wonder if her death is finally going to be confirmed
14:47:17 <atriq> I thought it already was?
14:47:37 <atriq> WHICH BIT OF THE BODY DID WE SEE
14:47:47 <atriq> YOU CAN SOMETIMES TELL FROM JUST A SMALL BIT OF THE BODY
14:49:52 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=006189
14:50:20 <Phantom_Hoover> there's actually a very small dersite drawn over her hair
14:52:06 <atriq> I see Gregor owns an accordion now
14:53:56 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, I became Gamcestor and finished his bit, now I'm Meenah again.
14:54:48 <atriq> Have you found all the keys?
14:54:52 <coppro> that Uh is quite an Uh
14:56:01 <atriq> Back before Cronus
14:57:55 <coppro> It's not really that surprising of an Uh, really
14:58:15 <zzo38> Do you mean the keys to open the door or the keys to type on the computer or the keys to play piano?
14:58:45 <atriq> Keys to type on the computer was Problem Sleuth
14:59:02 <atriq> Piano was Doctor Brinner
15:00:23 <atriq> Just turn around now, you're not welcome any more
15:00:32 <atriq> But yeah, go out the door
15:00:44 <atriq> It's a magic dream door
15:01:33 <coppro> atriq: wait, computer and piano?
15:01:36 <coppro> what are these things!!
15:01:48 <atriq> A COMPUTER IS WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT
15:01:55 <atriq> IT'S A BIT LIKE A FANCY TYPEWRITER
15:02:01 <atriq> AND A BIT LIKE A NOT VERY GOOD PHONE
15:02:14 <atriq> BUT IT DOES THE TALKING FOR YOU IF YOU TELL IT WHAT TO SAY
15:02:19 <atriq> AND IT CAN TALK VERY FAST
15:03:23 <atriq> NOW I DON'T NEED TO HOLD DOWN THE SHIFT BUTTON
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15:03:44 <coppro> atriq: where is this computer?
15:04:02 <atriq> You might be looking at it
15:04:08 <atriq> It should have a screen with lights
15:04:17 <atriq> And some wires leading to other bits of the computer!
15:05:39 <coppro> problem sleuth problem sleuth problem sleuth
15:05:41 <coppro> nope, it's not working
15:05:43 <coppro> PS did not just appear
15:05:56 <atriq> Why do I still read Misfile?
15:06:05 <coppro> also I wanna hear bubstep :(
15:07:56 <atriq> How did a picture of me eating a yorkshire pudding
15:08:02 <atriq> Get 4 likes on Facebook
15:09:01 <fizzie> I think it's the pudding.
15:09:11 <Sgeo> Oh, the listy thing: Uh, I think everyone who is both here and on the list already knows
15:10:20 <atriq> I'm the one with the red picture with the clock
15:10:24 <Sgeo> The list of people I tell when Homestuck updates, unless I forget.
15:10:38 <coppro> I call it my RSS reader
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15:11:35 <atriq> Sgeo is sometimes quicker
15:12:22 <atriq> Anyway, the picture in question is http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/557161_435025123200414_1140631525_n.jpg
15:14:14 <Sgeo> I wonder if I can bring a modified copy of LilHal in here
15:14:34 <atriq> Dirk's Auto-Responder?
15:14:56 <Sgeo> (LilHal is the IRC bot I wrote in Tcl to tell the channel when there's an update. Yes, named after the AR)
15:16:20 <Sgeo> It's faster than many people's notifiers, I think
15:16:38 <itidus21> Sgeo: what about a separate channel for updates?
15:16:42 <atriq> Does it say the names of people?
15:16:54 <atriq> #esoteric-homestuck
15:17:50 <Sgeo> atriq, it private messages people
15:18:14 <Sgeo> And says it out loud in channel, but that can be disabled
15:19:10 <itidus21> it should pm a bot with @tell person update >:-)
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15:19:34 <atriq> itidus21, that'd be too slow
15:19:40 <atriq> For a start, I'd have to be talking
15:20:38 <Sgeo> Well, it's currently active in SwiftIRC, could just use it there unless/until we get one running here
15:22:50 <atriq> I'm not comfortable with the idea of being on more than one IRC server at once
15:23:03 <atriq> Freenode/Esper was too weird for me
15:26:23 <atriq> You know what annoys me?
15:26:36 <atriq> That I'm annoyed that people assume there's only one kind of sign language
15:28:47 <itidus21> thats probably a good annoyance
15:29:06 <atriq> I'm annoyed that this annoys me
15:31:07 <itidus21> i get this from the first 2 lines annoyed_by(annoyed_by(people assume there's only one kind of sign language))
15:32:46 <itidus21> im not sure how to haskell this. but i don't mean to impose. i feel much better now.
15:37:40 <FreeFull> atriq: I am on 12 networks right now
15:37:53 <atriq> That is a ridiculous amount of networks
15:38:09 <atriq> That's roughly similar to the number of channels I've been in
15:38:24 <atriq> (probably significantly less)
15:38:46 <kmc> i'm also in 2 channels
15:38:55 <kmc> used to be in more but i keep rage-quitting them :/
15:39:07 <atriq> I very rarely rage-quit channels
15:39:12 <atriq> I just sort of phase out
15:39:18 <atriq> Or leave IRC entirely
15:40:21 <atriq> Might switch computer in a sec
15:40:55 <atriq> What are the odds that linux gaming will become mainstream in the next 2 months?
15:41:10 <FreeFull> Depends on when Valve releases Steam for Linux
15:41:15 <FreeFull> I think it will take more than 2 months
15:41:44 <atriq> Then I ought to install Windows on my other computer
15:41:55 <atriq> So I can play games with my friends
15:44:29 <kmc> <atriq> What are the odds that linux gaming will become mainstream in the next 2 months?
15:44:41 <kmc> 2012 is the year of Linux on the desktop
15:44:43 <kmc> THE MAYANS WARNED US
15:45:35 <FreeFull> December isn't within 2 months yet
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15:47:29 <atriq> Gonna switch computer now, brb
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15:53:31 <itidus21> this could be the biggest thing ever
15:53:57 <itidus21> disaffected windows 8 users might flock to steam to play games without paying for windows updates and malware
15:54:35 <atriq> I don't think there's enough Windows 8 users for any of them to be disaffected
15:55:24 <FreeFull> The valve linux blog only has two things on it right now
15:55:26 <itidus21> when people hear "you can play all your favorite games on a free OS which isn't owned by a corporation"
15:55:56 <atriq> "I'm used to Windows"
15:56:03 <itidus21> but this is absoluetly massive @_@
15:56:10 <atriq> (actual vaguely correct use of quote marks)
15:56:22 <itidus21> this could be like the killer app on linux
15:56:50 <FreeFull> And Valve is getting the graphics card manufacturers to improve the drivers
15:57:04 <itidus21> somehow i inferred that would happen
15:57:47 <itidus21> i admit it won't get me to jump off winxp
15:57:51 <zzo38> But does it let you to connect between Linux and Windows computers? And other computers too?
15:58:31 <atriq> zzo38, you can already connect Windows and Mac
15:58:46 <atriq> If you couldn't connect Linux Valve are dicks
15:59:29 <itidus21> well.. i hope gabe can be trusted with this kind of power
16:00:05 <itidus21> steam isn't exactly rights-friendly
16:04:29 <itidus21> maybe one day microsoft will be reduced to selling apps for linux
16:04:59 <itidus21> i meant to say my speculation isn't very useful
16:11:50 <kmc> it's adorable that people still think the big software freedom fight is with Microsoft over control of the desktop
16:12:25 <atriq> When the real villain is General Mills
16:12:37 <kmc> that's right
16:13:59 <atriq> The question is...
16:14:13 <atriq> Is that the truth, or an obscure Homestuck reference?
16:15:33 <atriq> (4 points if you can tell me how it's a Homestuck reference, because it is)
16:17:41 <Phantom_Hoover> General Mills is presumably isomorphic to Betty Crocker.
16:25:25 <itidus21> kmc: well i remember your comments about this now, vaguely, and the main thing about the mobile/portable/touchpad war seems to be about patents and ridiculous lawsuits
16:25:37 <itidus21> basically a clusterfuck of courtcases
16:26:26 <itidus21> each of which paints a picture of the future
16:32:26 <zzo38> Now for sure I completed the job for someone making a NES/Famicom ROM of their pictures and music. They will need to make the cartridge by themself, I think.
16:36:16 <AnotherTest> In haskell, what would be the preferred way of checking whether an integer can be divided by an another integer
16:37:08 <zzo38> AnotherTest: I would think using modulo, like it would in other programming languages, but I don't know
16:37:11 <atriq> :t \x y -> x `mod` y == 0
16:37:12 <lambdabot> forall a. (Integral a) => a -> a -> Bool
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17:31:18 <AnotherTest> are [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47] the prime numbers in the range [0..50]
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17:48:38 <Gregor> itidus21: Yeah, I don't see many Windows users jumping ship for Linux thanks to Steam.
17:48:59 <Gregor> I'll be happy to see it since Steam + wine is less than ideal, but I still expect plenty of wine-games, so *eh*
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17:50:22 <FreeFull> Steam for linux isn't even out yet
17:51:54 <Gregor> FreeFull: “I'll” expands to “I will” *NBC The More You Know*
17:52:40 <Gregor> And “see” in that context is synonymous with “foresee”
17:53:28 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, it is. Plenty of people use it like that. Maybe not in the UK *shrugs*
17:53:35 <itidus21> mind changing tracks.. oh humm... valve could launch it's very own linux i suppose
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17:53:46 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, it does.
17:53:58 <Phantom_Hoover> The 'will' takes care of the time difference, you don't need to extend it further with 'foresee'.
17:54:15 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, hahah, I'm talking about a different “see” X-D
17:54:28 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I meant on the previous line. “I don't see many Windows users jumping ship…”
17:54:47 <Gregor> Let us dance the jig of language ambiguity.
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17:55:16 <Phantom_Hoover> If KSP gets ported to Linux then I can probably ignore Windows almost all the time.
17:55:55 <Gregor> I don't understand what people are complaining about with Steam games and Linux. I'm yet to find one that doesn't work.
17:56:25 <itidus21> as a wannabe game developer my biggest two fears are patent infringement and my code failing to work on the main market's OS
17:56:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I've been stung by Wine too many times to see it as a viable option any more.
17:56:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Morrowind ran fine, but that's about the only thing that has.
17:56:57 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: When was the last time you used it? They continue to improve by leaps and bounds.
17:57:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, I tried it for TF2 a few months ago. It was not good.
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17:57:51 <Gregor> For TF2?! OK, admittedly, I don't have TF2, but IIRC that's based on the same engine as HL2, and I have a few games that use that engine (including HL2), all of which run beautifully.
17:57:53 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Correct_Way_To_Discover_Credit_Immediately someone create an esolang with this name. thx
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17:58:21 <Gregor> Is there an esolang where programs look like spam messages?
17:58:41 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I have never even had the slightest issue with HL2.
17:59:02 <Phantom_Hoover> It's setup-dependent of course but the last time I tried to get help off the Wine guys they were snippy and refused to do anything because I was trying a pirate copy.
17:59:12 <atriq> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon: Shear Disaster Download was originally a spam page
17:59:48 <atriq> With a name like that?
17:59:51 <atriq> Can't be anything else
18:00:03 <itidus21> i assumed you were a fan of the film
18:01:00 <itidus21> i suspect that counts as found-object art
18:04:12 <itidus21> i have an uptodate gfx card, steam access, and free time.. but all the game descriptions sicken me
18:04:46 <itidus21> i think i don't want to acknowledge modern gaming
18:06:10 <itidus21> what with it's voice chats and multiplayer and achievements, and dlc, and drm
18:07:20 <itidus21> what would be even cooler is on-chip dlc
18:08:00 <Gregor> “This Intel chip does not ship with SSE3 support, but by using this $50 DLC, you can enable it!”
18:08:26 <Gregor> The download is a 2KB .exe file. It just twiddles some bits and shows a progress bar.
18:08:40 <Gregor> Most of the progress bar time is taken by sleep(), just to make you think it's doing something.
18:08:45 <itidus21> and.... and.. ... and... this is a dangerous future
18:08:58 <atriq> One of my brother's friends stuck an Intel Inside sticker on his bmx. So I gave my brother my Powered by AMD sticker and he put it on his bike
18:09:31 <Gregor> Now you just need a Cyrix sticker for somebody else ;)
18:10:08 <itidus21> wow thats even cooler than card pegged onto bikewheel
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18:22:36 <kmc> IBM mainframes have that basically
18:22:51 <kmc> when you buy a mainframe it comes with a bunch of processors but they are not all activated
18:22:53 <atriq> Card pegged onto bikewheels?
18:23:00 <kmc> you can call them up to pay more money and get more processors turned on
18:23:28 <kmc> they can also turn them on in a mode where they will only run Linux or only run XML processing offload, and that costs less money
18:23:56 <itidus21> atriq: im hopeless at english. ill figure it out
18:24:17 <atriq> itidus21, no, that was meant at kmc
18:24:24 <atriq> kmc> IBM mainframes have that basically
18:24:54 <Gregor> IBM mainframes probably have a noisemaker somewhere, just so that admins feel secure in the knowledge that their machines are doing something.
18:25:07 <kmc> blinkenlights
18:25:27 <shachaf> Looks Good To Marlow, I guess.
18:25:57 <atriq> What does the patch do?
18:26:26 <shachaf> atriq: Integer literals like 1.2e6
18:27:05 <atriq> It wreaks my obfuscation plans
18:27:22 <itidus21> http://www.firebox.com/product/4364/Turbospoke-Bike-Exhaust-System
18:35:43 <Phantom_Hoover> does anyone care to hear the voyages of the KSS Proportionate Response V as I try once more to make it go between two planets without exploding, running out of fuel or developing crippling stability problems
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18:37:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Well I aborted the first launch while the engines were spinning up because it turns the physics engine into a slideshow.
18:39:19 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, I've either fixed that or made it much, much worse.
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18:41:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Other than that I can't tell on account of getting about two frames a second.
18:42:43 <atriq> I'm not sure what the context is
18:43:53 <olsner> oh, it's the gerbil space program?
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18:46:13 <olsner> maybe it makes sense for the gerbils
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18:49:21 <atriq> That's, like, 12 pounds
18:49:36 <nortti> 21:34 <JG71> netbsd is too well, obvious.openbsd, I wear neither orange nor otherwise I buy cough drops en masse.what remains to be because
18:50:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I paid for it because I was like "A GAME WHERE YOU GET TO FLY PROPER ROCKETS I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS SINCE I WAS 5"
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18:54:57 <Phantom__Hoover> a part fell off at some point and it's developed crippling stability problems
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18:56:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Where they will remain for another two or three months while I wait for the planets to align.
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19:01:10 <kmc> but can you control those proper rockets using a poorly designed 16-bit CPU
19:02:24 <Phantom__Hoover> there's an autopilot but you can only write scripts for it
19:03:37 <kmc> this is how we fix things on russian space station
19:03:45 <atriq> Duct tape is more useful than shit for many purposes
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19:33:11 <zzo38> In chess when the rules were less precise someone once promoted a pawn into an opponent's piece, and castled a promoted rook, which are not supposed to be allowed. But a variant can be made which allows such things?
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19:41:54 <Arc_Koen> I think you should be glad everybody play with the same rules
19:42:06 <atriq> zzo38 and kallisti don't
19:42:08 <oerjan> no i want different rules dammit!
19:42:13 <Arc_Koen> in the game of go there are always problems in international tournaments as to which rule to use
19:42:22 <oerjan> wait, we're talking about life, right?
19:42:37 <olsner> no, we seem to be discussing the last xkcd
19:42:47 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: Well, yes, you have to play by the rules of whatever game you are playing. But of course you can play a different game (as long as all players (and tournament official, if applicable) agrees).
19:43:18 <Arc_Koen> well, the rules are very similar but people have disagreements regarding details
19:43:21 <oerjan> that xkcd reminded me of zzo38's chess variants
19:43:52 <olsner> which is what we were actually talking about
19:44:07 <olsner> it was something about chess
19:44:23 <Arc_Koen> and promoting a pawn into an opponent piece sounds like something that can be useful in very, very specific and rare situations only, so saying it's a different game is a bit of a stretch
19:44:26 <zzo38> I wrote all description of REVER esolang except the streams. I don't know exactly how it should work, but my idea is at least: Streams are (usually finite) queues of integers. Input streams are normally read-only and output streams are write-only. Streams operations can also be piped with other streams. Other than that, I don't know.
19:45:20 <olsner> piping a stream back into itself sounds like it could do something
19:46:52 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: Well, it is a variant of chess without a lot of new uses. I did not mean these are the only different rules; there can be others too, such as it doesn't matter if the king and rook has moved yet, but the king has to be on K1 and the rook on QR1, KR1, or K8. And then you can have more such as promoting only to lost pieces, sometimes miss a turn if you play the right card, etc
19:47:06 <olsner> oh, REVER has other things besides streams
19:47:26 <zzo38> olsner: I did not mean to itself, and I don't even know if that would work with the various restrictions REVER is supposed to have.
19:47:34 <quintopia> is there an esolang where the only fundamental objects are queues of bits?
19:48:30 <zzo38> There is a esolang where the objects are queues of references of queues. And I think cyclic tag machines uses a queue of bits.
19:48:35 <oerjan> <zzo38> yinYang = join $ liftA2 runCT (getCC <* lift (putChar '\n')) (getCC <* lift (putChar '*'));
19:48:47 <Arc_Koen> so we're definitely not talking about regular chess are we? I might need more context then
19:49:03 <atriq> I think we're talking about everything at once
19:49:18 <zzo38> atriq: Yes, like it is often the case in IRC.
19:49:23 <olsner> Arc_Koen: no, we're talking about queues of bits
19:49:23 <zzo38> oerjan: What about that?
19:50:09 <oerjan> is that the same as yinyang? it looks closer to the unlambda ``.*`cd`r`cd program. although maybe that _is_ also yinyang
19:50:25 <oerjan> i somehow assumed the use of let* in the scheme complicated things
19:50:33 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes I think that Unlambda program is also yinyang.
19:50:35 <quintopia> what is the language with queues of queues
19:51:00 <zzo38> quintopia: Q-Ref (one of my own) has queues of references of queues.
19:51:24 <atriq> Fueue has queues which can contain queues
19:51:29 <olsner> tried to google fueue and found https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_piracy
19:51:42 <zzo38> oerjan: This does the same thing too. Do you know the definition of runCT and getCC which I used (or perhaps you can figure out by yourself)?
19:52:28 <olsner> (and by "google" I meant using a completely different search engine)
19:52:44 <atriq> "I googled it on Amazon"
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19:54:04 <olsner> argh :( I thought I was looking it up on the eso wiki and failed to find the fueue article, turns out that was wikipedia
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19:55:29 <olsner> sounds like it ought to be bung
19:55:42 <oerjan> olsner: i think you are confused about english grammar
19:56:41 <zzo38> I wonder if this getCC has some use in proper programs too
19:56:56 <tswett> zzo38: "get current continuation"?
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19:57:48 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b. (MonadCont m) => ((a -> m b) -> m a) -> m a
19:58:14 <zzo38> tswett: It is what I meant it to mean but it is really just a name for the function.
19:59:41 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class `Flip'
20:02:52 <zzo38> I think <- is a reserved word in Haskell
20:03:03 <oerjan> that's what the oh right was for
20:03:33 <oerjan> i suspect lambdabot may not have a type allowing this to be written
20:03:53 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Fix'
20:03:56 <zzo38> What do you try to write? Write your own types (even if lambdabot cannot use it).
20:03:58 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Mu'
20:04:39 <oerjan> zzo38: i already know how to write it, i'm more interested in seeing if lambdabot can accept it
20:05:13 <zzo38> I want to know what it is though. What are you trying to make?
20:05:46 <oerjan> it needs a = a -> m b afaik
20:06:24 <zzo38> It is like what I used, with a newtype wrapper, with the field named runCT
20:06:37 <oerjan> oh that's what runCT was for
20:07:27 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) r. ((a -> m r) -> m r) -> ContT r m a
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20:11:57 <atriq> Turns out "comming" doesn't mean "coming"
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20:16:23 <oerjan> <kmc> butts <-- do you actually have a script for doing this randomly?
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20:18:43 <zzo38> I was playing Dungeons&Dragons game today very short time
20:25:47 <atriq> I think I have a way of dividing by two with Lambda Calculus
20:26:09 <oerjan> atriq: it shouldn't be _that_ hard...
20:26:24 <atriq> I just didn't see a solution immediately
20:26:30 <atriq> Is there an obvious one?
20:27:14 <atriq> Other than \n -> second (n (\x -> first x (pair false (succ (second x))) (pair true (second x))))
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20:27:35 <oerjan> well i'd do something like n (\(x,y) -> (y, x+1)) (0,0) with pairs expanded
20:28:30 <atriq> Oh, I see how that works
20:28:49 <oerjan> yours isn't the same? it looks pair-based too
20:29:45 <atriq> Mine has a boolean and it checks the boolean to see if now is the time for succing
20:29:49 <atriq> Otherwise it doesn't
20:29:57 <atriq> Yours has a conveyor belt type thing?
20:30:12 <oerjan> i guess yours has a better chance of scaling to other divisors
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20:32:25 <atriq> Mine annoyingly doesn't want to type-check
20:32:35 <atriq> n :: ((a -> a) -> a -> a)
20:33:31 <oerjan> i think you need some forall's if applying n to something is going to give a church numeral of the same type
20:36:01 <Phantom__Hoover> maybe i should've put enough engines on this thing that I can't go and make a cup of tea during the planetary transfer burn.
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20:36:58 <oerjan> atriq: yours above appears to lack an argument to n
20:37:55 <Gregor> So apparently Mitt Romney thinks airplane windows should open.
20:38:07 <Gregor> Potential future president of the USA.
20:38:14 <Gregor> Thinks airplane windows should roll down or something.
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20:39:00 <zzo38> Maybe he should make such windows on his own private airplane.
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20:47:24 <Phantom__Hoover> I did make a cup of tea, and this thing's still only a fraction of the way there.
20:47:54 <oerjan> everyone knows tea and spaceships don't mix, see H2G2
20:52:48 <Arc_Koen> cats fighting in the street... they shriek like birds
20:57:07 <oerjan> you have scary birds i take
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20:59:43 <Arc_Koen> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Numberwang/Implementations is that a subpage or a page with a slash in its title?
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21:00:18 <Arc_Koen> (my apologies I did not mean to kill lambdabot)
21:00:41 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: it's a page with a slash in its title; subpages get an automatic link back to the top
21:01:19 <oerjan> compare e.g. http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/FurryScript (on esolang, User: namespace has subpages but not main namespace)
21:02:21 <Arc_Koen> also what the hell is "if n % 1 == 0:" for, at the beginning of the code? I thought the remainder of a euclidian division by 1 was always 0.
21:02:42 <zzo38> That is not the only user subpage and I am not the only one who has it, but that is one example.
21:04:09 <oerjan> > rem <$> [-1, 0, 1] <*> [1]
21:04:41 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: don't worry, lambdabot dying was just my bad karma.
21:05:01 <Arc_Koen> is that an incentive for me to stop talking to you? :(
21:06:06 <oerjan> hm a tricky question. i don't fully understand how my karma works, or else it wouldn't be so bad...
21:06:54 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: oh hm i remember: the n may not be an integer.
21:07:24 <Arc_Koen> so "in case it's not an integer, multiply it by ten"?
21:07:48 <Arc_Koen> oh, you mean it can be a decimal
21:08:04 * Arc_Koen thought it could be a string or whatever other kind of data
21:08:51 <oerjan> right, although i am somewhat worried if that will always terminate... oh wait it will, although the number may be misrepresented
21:09:18 <oerjan> say 0.1 is not perfectly representable in binary
21:09:33 <oerjan> but whatever 0.1 is replaced with, will be.
21:09:54 * oerjan swats lambdabot in absentia -----###
21:10:45 <oerjan> what i really mean is that it might not always calculate the same as summing the digits in the original string
21:13:15 <Arc_Koen> well thank you and have a good night!
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21:38:53 <kmc> shachaf: Do you know about Base32?
21:39:04 <kmc> it's like Base64 but using only A-Z2-7
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21:39:59 <kmc> decoders are allowed to interpret 0 as O and 1 as I
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21:49:52 <kmc> "2 arrested after having sex in public park, witnesses watch for 15 minutes"
21:49:59 <kmc> an important detail
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21:50:56 <kmc> "Oh, police blotter. You make every newspaper a newspaper from Florida."
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22:02:58 <Gregor> kmc: I can't decide who in that story is creepier.
22:03:05 <kmc> i know, right?
22:03:17 <shachaf> kmc: Oh, sounds reasonable.
22:03:29 <Gregor> I'm gonna have to go with the witnesses. 'cause at least the perpetrators were getting laid.
22:04:01 <kmc> although I think if you're having sex in public, you are implicitly consenting to being watched
22:04:08 <kmc> indeed that's the point of it for some people
22:04:59 <kmc> sure you were
22:05:16 <Gregor> shachaf: Don't go trying to hide behind your fancy mathematics.
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22:08:22 <Phantom__Hoover> Well, after a lot of orbital fuckery, the Proportional Response V is now on a relatively accurate course into Joolian orbit.
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22:17:50 <Phantom__Hoover> Oh, also, further calculations suggest that this mission will not be able to return home.
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22:19:16 <Phantom__Hoover> It and its crew will remain tragically stranded on the beach moon of Laythe, condemned to an eternity of sunning themselves without a care in the world.
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22:20:52 <olsner> they've reached gerbil heaven?
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22:21:18 <olsner> or still on their way to
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22:22:12 <Phantom__Hoover> They deserve it by now, they've been at this for 332 days.
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22:24:45 <Phantom__Hoover> Or perhaps not; they're currently roaring in towards Jool, and they're angled wrong to use the moons' gravity to slow down.
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22:25:07 <olsner> I've failed to figure out what the normal gerbil life span is, but 332 days might be appropriate
22:27:12 <Phantom__Hoover> I just took one out on an EVA to check if anything had fallen off the rocket and he seemed pretty sprightly.
22:35:42 <olsner> or, as the gerbil crew would say: squeak
22:37:02 <Phantom__Hoover> Unfortunately I was only able to accomplish these assists by flying headlong into Jool, because the trajectory plotter isn't quiiiite working properly.
22:37:33 <Phantom__Hoover> *sigh*, I guess I can just aerobrake and then waste all my fuel.
22:39:18 <kmc> does this game run on linux
22:39:45 <olsner> no, it's actual news from the gerbil space program
22:43:47 <kmc> any port in a storm
22:44:47 <Phantom__Hoover> (I'll probably have to savescum like hell for this, because there's no way to actually calculate aerobrake results.
22:48:57 <kmc> that's great
22:49:04 <kmc> "why don't you go outside and see if anything fell off the rocket"
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22:50:16 <kmc> is there any point checking?
22:50:25 <kmc> if something had fallen off, could you do anything about it?
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22:50:59 <Phantom__Hoover> You can disable individual fuel tanks and maybe try and rebalance it a bit, but that's all.
22:51:54 <Phantom__Hoover> Also you can jettison stages if they take minor damage and try and get by on what's left; that's what I had to do after the ascent stage broke.
22:52:34 <Phantom__Hoover> EVA's not very developed yet though, it's mostly just there to look cool.
22:52:58 <Phantom__Hoover> It does allow crew transfers and walking around on moons though.
22:53:04 <kmc> can you rig together an adapter between systems manufactured by different contractors out of duct tape?
22:54:28 <Phantom__Hoover> And now comes the harrowing process of trying to actually rendezvous with anything from the ridiculous orbit I've put myself in.
22:54:48 <kmc> http://0.tqn.com/d/space/1/0/K/8/1/GPN-2002-000055.jpg actually looks pretty legit
22:54:52 <kmc> that is some expert duct tape tearing
22:55:10 <kmc> i assume this is an essential part of astronaut training
22:56:13 <Phantom__Hoover> I am praying so hard right now that the autopilot can transfer me to the moons rather than me having to do it myself.
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23:43:39 <Phantom__Hoover> I dumped most of my velocity, which just means it's harder to shed.
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23:51:32 <kmc> space travel is hard
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00:02:14 <Phantom__Hoover> Important lesson of the day: orbital twiddles are best done near the top of eccentric orbits.
00:07:15 <kmc> perhaps bonghits will fix your orbits
00:11:46 <Phantom__Hoover> Good news, though: I did some more calculations and I realised the earlier ones were bullshit!
00:12:18 <Phantom__Hoover> The gerbils can totally get off the beach if I turn the high-thrust engine back on.
00:15:14 <oerjan> it's a small step for a gerbil
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00:25:20 <Phantom__Hoover> With a gravity assist from Laythe I can go from 70 million kilometres from the sun to 600,000.
00:28:56 <zzo38> Are you trying to go to the sun???
00:32:57 <zzo38> What are you trying to go?
00:35:01 <Phantom__Hoover> After a convenient gravity assist I'm on a pretty reasonable orbit now.
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01:14:53 <kmc> i tried to fnord the river and my fuckin' oxen died
01:16:04 <kmc> finger nuckin good
01:17:27 <kmc> KSP uses PhysX
01:17:49 <kmc> i wonder if you can hook it up to a big Tesla box to have ultra accurate orbital calculations
01:18:52 <zzo38> Can you use ephemeris for orbit calculation?
01:19:38 <zzo38> And if you want to go to the moon of a gas giant it is going to be far away, and lack of air, isn't it?
01:29:04 <kmc> there might be air
01:29:08 <kmc> i don't know what kerbals breathe anyway
01:29:43 <kmc> europa has oxygen atmosphere, but not very much of it
01:30:05 <zzo38> Do you need extra oxygen?
01:33:08 <kmc> there is said to be a lot of oxygen in the ocean there
01:35:21 <shachaf> Oxygen is bad for you in large quantities.
01:35:59 <zzo38> A lot of things are poison for you in too large quantities
01:36:43 <pikhq_> shachaf: Really? Isn't straight O2 used in medicine sometimes for breathing?
01:36:58 <shachaf> pikhq_: Who said anything about the 2?
01:37:26 <shachaf> Straight O is pretty dangerous.
01:37:30 <pikhq_> Well, when you say "oxygen" it's generally assumed you are referring to the diatomic gas, not the free ion.
01:37:37 <shachaf> pikhq_: Actually too much O2 is bad for you in some cases.
01:37:37 <pikhq_> Straight O is *incredibly* dangerous, yes.
01:37:46 <shachaf> For example it's a very bad idea to go SCUBA-diving with it.
01:39:08 <kmc> how about Ofast
01:39:18 <kmc> can i breathe funsafe-math
01:39:47 <zzo38> I think it is not air, so probably you cannot breathe funsafe-math.
01:40:15 <shachaf> kmc: So apparently writing GHC patches is really easy.
01:40:17 <kmc> you can breathe some things that are not air
01:40:23 <kmc> such as other mixtures including oxygen
01:40:26 <kmc> also some liquids
01:40:34 <shachaf> Breathing liquids is nifty.
01:40:35 <kmc> shachaf: I've thought about it
01:40:38 <shachaf> I hear it's pretty dangerous, though.
01:41:10 <pikhq_> shachaf: The danger with breathing liquid is that the too-high viscosity can overwork your diaphram.
01:41:43 <kmc> <shachaf> kmc: So apparently writing GHC patches is really easy.
01:41:45 <kmc> <shachaf> I hear it's pretty dangerous, though.
02:03:19 <Phantom__Hoover> <kmc> i wonder if you can hook it up to a big Tesla box to have ultra accurate orbital calculations
02:03:36 <Phantom__Hoover> KSP uses patched conics anyway so the orbital simulations are for all intents and purposes exact.
02:05:58 <kmc> ok fine, accurate non-orbital calculations
02:07:11 <Phantom__Hoover> And Kerbal's atmosphere does contain oxygen, and their jet engines rely on it to work.
02:07:29 <kmc> oh, the jets do, sure
02:07:34 <kmc> but presumably they have rockets that don't
02:07:54 <Phantom__Hoover> I know I was speaking wrt atmospheric composition earlier.
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02:11:08 <kmc> i can't tell what group of people today's xkcd is strawman-mocking
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03:56:34 <Sgeo_> I finally broke into the Cybertown jail
03:58:25 <monqy> doesn't that strike you as a bit backwards
03:58:25 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 8 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
04:04:25 <Sgeo_> Non-jailed persons were not allowed to enter the jail
04:04:37 <Sgeo_> I think if you tried, ... not sure what happened. Thrown in jail?
04:17:22 <Sgeo_> At any rate, I think Cybertown is too dead for anyone to actually complain
04:17:33 <Sgeo_> I think they pulled the Jail from existence a number of years ago
04:17:40 <Sgeo_> I was just using a copy that the Internet Archive grabbed
04:17:45 <Sgeo_> <3 IA so much right now
04:36:41 <augur> anyone know of that video of a guy walking out of his car as it gets hit by another car?
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04:39:25 <Sgeo_> Is it someone pulled over by a cop?
04:43:04 <augur> all i remember is this guy just opens the door and walks out of the car as it spins
04:47:01 <Sgeo_> Could try asking on reddit.com/r/tipofmytongue
05:03:03 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYBM8VsxHEg he kind of just opens the door and walks out of the car as it spins
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05:12:19 <augur> oklopol: no this was a real crash
05:12:29 <augur> i dont think the guy was actually IN the car but
05:12:38 <augur> it looked like he was
05:13:56 <oklopol> yeah in that clip, i guess the car didn't even get hit.
05:14:01 <oklopol> also i have to go, good luck
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06:00:47 <itidus21> Sgeo_: you seem to specialize in virtual environments
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06:23:32 <Sgeo_> Aww, Maven doesn't list any VRML utilities
06:33:32 <Sgeo_> monqy, tswett: Boring update.
06:42:57 <kmc> i wonder if JIT spraying is practical on ARM / Thumb or if instruction alignment is too restricted
06:44:16 <kmc> even if you can only jump to intended instructions, some JITs might produce a sequence of instructions where jumping into the middle does something interesting
06:44:49 <kmc> esoteric programming is to exploit development as particle physics is to nuclear weapon design
07:13:16 <augur> kmc: when was the last time someone wrote an exploit based on the developments in the brainfuck world? :|
07:17:57 <kmc> when was the last time someone designed a weapon using neutrinos
07:32:37 <Sgeo_> Can Selenium see what resources are being downloaded for a web page ala Google Chrome's development tools?
07:37:08 * Sgeo_ decides that it makes far more sense to ask in #selenium
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10:56:18 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/10do93/errors_vs_bugs_and_the_end_of_stupidity/c6cnb8u?context=3
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11:42:58 <itidus21> do i really want to eat a cake just to show that my digestive system is working
11:45:58 <itidus21> i'm not really liking this line: "Lazy" and "stupid" and "bad at ____" are terms about the map, not the territory.
11:46:04 <fizzie> Is there a convetion that, just like ^@, ^A, ..., ^_ map to NUL, SOH, ..., US, then ^`, ^a, ..., ^~ could map to the 0x80, 0x81, ..., 0x9e controls? (Okay, the 0x9f is a bit of an issue, due to 0x7f being what it is.)
11:47:16 <itidus21> the wiki page for map-territory relation starts talking about Jiddu Krishnamurti and Alfred Korzybski
11:48:09 <itidus21> which is only one degree away from theosophists and scientology
11:49:18 <oerjan> itidus21: is it the case that you don't like the line because it conflicts with the beliefs you use to keep up your incompetence self-image?
11:49:36 <oerjan> (just a cynical hunch, here)
11:49:46 <oerjan> (a hypocritical one, too)
11:52:17 <itidus21> well i don't know if alfred korzybski is a good guy or not.. WP says he influenced many people.. william s burroughs who kills and writes about drug addiction, l ron hubbard who boasted that you can get rich by starting a religion, john grinder who started NLP
11:52:32 <itidus21> but on the other hand quite a many great authors
11:53:15 <itidus21> and i actually don't know the details on jiddu
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11:59:22 <itidus21> it just hit a nerve about these things..
12:00:38 <itidus21> maybe george orwell would not approve of celandine13's newspeak
12:06:44 <itidus21> basically, i know those names for all the wrong reasons
12:08:20 <itidus21> i always react to urls... i always regret it
12:08:34 <itidus21> lets not make too much of this
12:08:47 <itidus21> just like sometimes i rant about patents or about windows 8
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12:15:24 <Arc_Koen> isn't it weird that the wiki is esolangs.org but the main page's title is "Esolang, the esoteric programming languages wiki"?
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12:20:25 <fizzie> I don't know if it is weird or not, but I keep forgetting whether I need to put in the plural or not.
12:25:09 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/ajPL -- "such an illegal act like that should stop"!
12:25:20 <fizzie> This Tunde guy sure keeps repeating him(?)self.
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12:29:09 <Arc_Koen> if a language is known to be at most as powerful as a linear bounded automaton, should I put it in that category, or leave it as "unknown computational class"?
12:30:11 <Arc_Koen> I mean, it is known that every program in that language can be translated into a linear bounded automaton, but whether any linear bounded automaton can be translated into this language is unknown (and likely to be false)
12:30:32 <fizzie> If it's "likely to be false", it perhaps doesn't belong in the category.
12:31:17 <fizzie> At least based on a strict reading of the category description.
12:42:31 <fizzie> The linear-bounded automata category is pretty sparse, and I'm a bit dubious about some of those. 2DP for example sounds more finite-state to me. (At least based on the current logic: "-- because of its fixed playfield and data size." Though I do note there doesn't seem to be a limit on the number of heads made by NEWHD.)
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12:43:54 <itidus21> it's just a raw nerve seeing anything related to that.. im too mentally unstable to explore such topics. it was only a few months ago that i had to explain to police and my doctor that i thought my brother was doing behavior modification to me
12:44:23 <itidus21> it's not intended a well reasoned critique
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12:55:23 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: yes, bitbitjump is also in the linear-bounded automata category, yet it seems to be no more than a bounded storage machine
12:59:35 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: I would've mentioned BitBitJump except I couldn't quite bother figuring out what was going on with it. The examples keep talking about infinite memory.
13:00:00 <Arc_Koen> well, basically each instruction contains a "goto"
13:00:15 <Arc_Koen> and this goto is only 8-bit long
13:00:53 <Arc_Koen> so I don't quite see how we're supposed to access memory with addresses larger than 8-bit
13:07:41 <fizzie> I don't see 8 bits specified anywhere, though.
13:08:22 <fizzie> It does have a fixed word length at the beginning, but then that somehow disappears.
13:09:46 <fizzie> I suppose the reverse-a-string and brainfuck interpreter examples that mention "unlimited memory" just mean the assembly form programs can run with any word size. Maybe.
13:10:14 <fizzie> But that's mostly from interpreting "As in the example above, the interpreter in its assembly form is not bound to the memory limitation of the BitBitJump instruction."
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13:25:21 <itidus21> but after a short while i felt like it was really depressing way to program
13:27:06 <itidus21> thats .. .... ill try to contribute later
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13:33:22 * Sgeo has a brilliant idea
13:33:28 <Sgeo> For a specific use case
13:33:31 <Sgeo> But it's so beautiful
13:33:55 <Sgeo> ...although come to think of it, I'm sure it already exists, but not for the reason I have in mind
13:34:17 <Sgeo> Web service that redirects requests. First trying at one URL, but if it doesn't exist, another one.
13:35:01 <Arc_Koen> "you were trying to find esokangs.org, but since it doesn't exist, let us redirect you to this nice online dating site"
13:37:02 <Sgeo> Not quite what I had in mind
13:37:36 <Sgeo> A fixed list of URLs to serve as roots. Client requests http://myservice.example.com/bla.wrl
13:37:57 <Sgeo> First it tries to find it on the Internet Archive at a specific place, latest time. If that doesn't work, then tries each list of web routes
13:38:08 <Sgeo> Each root on the list
13:42:24 * Sgeo does wonder if it may be better to just physically try to gather the files into one place
13:45:19 <Sgeo> "Our terms of use specify that users of the Wayback Machine are not to copy data from the collection."
13:45:23 <Sgeo> Well, there goes that idea.
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14:09:45 <atriq> Memos are a thing?
14:10:19 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever gotten one. If you mean freenode memoserv.
14:10:49 <Sgeo> I ... have a memo from MemoServ
14:10:58 <fizzie> A thing is certainly what they are.
14:10:59 <atriq> I have one from you?
14:11:19 <atriq> Yes, "yes" is literally what it said
14:11:31 <atriq> Arc_Koen, not rigorously.
14:11:45 <atriq> I wrote it back in the days when I was silly and didn't test things much
14:16:14 <Sgeo> Is it morally acceptable for a server to, upon receiving an HTTP request, itself make some requests before responding?
14:16:21 * Sgeo suddenly realizes that he might not need to
14:16:35 <fizzie> No, proxy servers are immoral.
14:16:36 <Sgeo> Depending on what HTTP supports
14:17:41 <Sgeo> Uh, I guess I should read about HTTP 300 works
14:18:49 <Sgeo> There's no response that says to the client "Try these URLs and use whichever works"?
14:22:50 <Sgeo> Also, liveweb.archive.org doesn't have a coherent robots.txt
14:23:10 <atriq> "If we confuse them, maybe they'll leave us alone!"
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14:40:02 <atriq> With OverloadedSyntax and MonadComprehensions
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14:40:07 <atriq> How do things end up?
14:41:13 <atriq> Not overloaded syntax...
14:41:21 <atriq> I'm mixing two things up
14:46:56 <Sgeo> I have a feeling I won't even need to use Compojure
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15:25:50 <atriq> Forgot to turn off my other computer...
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15:29:08 <atriq> Is there a way I can turn off my computer from up here?
15:29:29 <atriq> If I know my password etc?
15:33:50 <Sgeo> atriq, you mean, by connecting via ssh?
15:33:58 <Sgeo> And then I think it's the shutdown command?
15:35:44 <atriq> Time to learn how to use ssh
15:36:21 <Sgeo> ssh username@hostname
15:36:37 <Sgeo> The computer might not have sshd running though
15:37:23 <atriq> I haven't set anything up
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15:53:12 <atriq> (I didn't do that)
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15:57:22 <Sgeo> What is "up here"? Different building, or same building?
15:57:28 <itidus21> but ya see being british theres - i'm no stranger to that. i grew up listening to radio. we'd a fuckin' ventriliquist star on the radio. a ventriloquist! i'm sure there was two guys - just showed up. hello archie! how ya doin bobbie? i wonder if they bothered bringing the doll at all. ah fuck it, leave it at home.
15:57:44 <itidus21> (probably not as funny as i hoped)
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16:03:26 <atriq> Just I can't be bothered to go downstairs
16:10:17 <itidus21> atriq: maybe it's time to build a downstairs riding robot
16:10:53 <atriq> That would involve getting up
16:11:29 <itidus21> i didn't grow up with stairs so i can't imagine what sort of games one thinks up to play with stairs
16:12:12 <atriq> Well, "see if you can get to the top floor without touching the stairs"
16:13:11 <itidus21> i believe that growing kids figure out a game to play with everything
16:16:00 <atriq> I wonder how hard it'd be to set this computer up as a proxy server
16:16:23 <Sgeo> Well, this was an experience
16:16:44 <Sgeo> (Writing a simple guess the number game in Clojure with Eclipse+Counterclockwise)
16:17:17 <itidus21> the cardboard roll left over with wrapping paper was always good to have swordfights, balloons made adhoc volleyballs, record players were good at making objects spin around, chairs made of foam could be shunted around like cars, hockey could be played with rubber balls + brooms
16:19:08 <itidus21> filling buckets with quamquots and throwing em at each other seemed fun at the time, lawn bowls played on carpet with marbles
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16:21:58 <itidus21> stacking cushions up over a chair and trying to leap over it, trying to get around on the furniture without touching the floor, i never personally did the thing with two tins joined by a wire as a makeshift radio, but there is paper planes too
16:22:04 <Arc_Koen> atriq: lambdabot went missing for some time yesterday night, so I left you a /ms message
16:23:33 <Arc_Koen> I think you can read them with "/ms read 0" or something
16:24:21 <Arc_Koen> (hrm, that should be a 1, actually)
16:25:18 <Arc_Koen> apparently 0 only works if you have no messages (in which case it tells you that you have no messages); if you do have messages, it tells you 0 is an invalid index number
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16:26:15 <itidus21> i have a feeling that learning to "pretend the floor is lava" is something we are genetically compelled to try
16:26:54 <itidus21> perhaps some dark chapter of human history
16:27:14 <Arc_Koen> you think there is a collective memory stuck in our unconscious mind, reminiscent of a time where the flood actually was lava?
16:28:58 <Arc_Koen> or maybe we're all potential thieves or spies, trained to avoid motion sensors on the ground.
16:29:19 <itidus21> `specialeffect lightning and dreariness
16:29:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: specialeffect: not found
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16:30:58 <itidus21> Arc_Koen: something like that. i like your wording
16:31:36 <Arc_Koen> should have said "a time when" I guess... stupid french language with no distinction between time and space
16:35:05 <atriq> Arc_Koen, I saw it
16:35:42 <itidus21> also.. for what it's worth i think quite a bit of super mario brothers gameplay boils down to "pretend the floor is <something_deadly/>"
16:36:52 <itidus21> so the cleverness was in abstracting that
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16:46:03 <Arc_Koen> I've only started playing spuer mario bros quite recently...
16:46:27 <Arc_Koen> (well, it's actually a fan-reprogrammed version of super mario bros where mario carries a portal gun...)
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17:16:24 <Gregor> Arc_Koen: Have you played the portal-inspired maps, or just the original ones?
17:16:45 <Gregor> Arc_Koen: TBH, the portal gun adds nothing whatsoever to the original game, but the portal-like game with Mario physics is fun.
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17:30:41 <kmc> huh, /r/programming is running a big ad soliciting donations for http://www.girlswhocode.com/
17:30:44 <kmc> that's cool
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17:44:12 <kmc> > scanl (+) 0 $ iterate (*20) 1
17:44:13 <lambdabot> [0,1,21,421,8421,168421,3368421,67368421,1347368421,26947368421,53894736842...
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18:48:14 <kmc> 'the USSD code to factory data reset a Galaxy S3 is *2767*3855# can be triggered from browser like this: <frame src="tel:*2767*3855%23" />'
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18:50:17 <atriq> Gregor, can you recommend a gateway hat
18:51:02 <Gregor> Do you mean “gateway” in the sense of gateway drug?
18:51:10 <kmc> i like the idea of putting this in a QR code
18:51:18 <atriq> Not as in hat shaped like a gate
18:52:28 <atriq> It's been recommended that I start wearing hats
18:53:15 <Gregor> atriq: http://www.villagehatshop.com/jaxon_wool_pork_pie.html
18:53:45 <Gregor> Which… they only seem to have in medium, so unless you're a size medium, ignore that :)
18:53:59 <atriq> Have no idea what hat size I am
18:54:05 <atriq> I'm very new to this
18:54:34 <kmc> http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/underwire/2012/09/heisenberg_660.jpg
18:57:28 <Gregor> atriq: Well, figure that out first.
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18:59:17 <Gregor> atriq: http://www.villagehatshop.com/jaxon_hats_c-crown_stingy-brim_fedoras_pinstripe.html
19:02:31 <itidus21> my fedora eventually became a gilligan
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20:32:10 <Arc_Koen> Gregor: yes, I've played the portal inspired ones
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20:32:27 <Arc_Koen> they were kinda fun, but sometimes a little repetitive
20:33:17 <Arc_Koen> I also tried the other maps (I think players made them), they were fun as well but usually redundant - that is, there is an "obvious way" you're supposed to do it, but you can often find shortcuts
20:33:18 -!- oerjan has set topic: Kinda fun, but sometimes a little repetitive | 我能吞下粘土而不伤身体。| Taneb is atriq, just so you know | My other Taneb is a dead racehorse | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
20:34:08 <oerjan> i think it meant something with clay
20:34:15 <oerjan> it was already in the topic
20:34:30 <Arc_Koen> "I don't. Well, mostly not" or something
20:35:03 <Arc_Koen> FreeFull: what's the minus world? I had never played before so I wouldn't know
20:35:08 <pikhq_> It's definitely not Japanese.
20:35:27 <Arc_Koen> well the last character looks japanese
20:35:40 <Arc_Koen> the middle stuff don't, though
20:35:43 <pikhq_> It's Simplified Chinese.
20:35:47 <oerjan> google translate gave a coherent result for chinese as i recall
20:36:33 <pikhq_> The shinjitai of 體, 体 is also the Simplified of 體.
20:36:47 <Arc_Koen> there's that "wrapping area" I accessed by accident from world 4, that leads to worlds 6, 7 and 8 via green pipes
20:37:02 <FreeFull> Arc_Koen: 1-2 has warping area too
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20:37:15 <Arc_Koen> made the game kind of boring though... now I feel like I could just complete world 8 without going through the remaining three
20:37:16 <FreeFull> But if you go through the wall instead of properly, and go into the pipe before the screen scrolls completely
20:37:22 <FreeFull> You end up in a glitched out world instead
20:37:45 <Arc_Koen> one of the 4th-levels did loop forever
20:38:14 <Arc_Koen> that is, there was a repetitive sequence of tiles that repeated forever, until you had passed it "the right way"
20:38:39 -!- Gregor has set topic: Kinda fun, but sometimes a little repetitive | No hablo chino. | Taneb is atriq, just so you know | My other Taneb is a dead racehorse | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
20:38:46 <Arc_Koen> I went through ten or so times through it the easy way before I tried the other -_-
20:40:03 <Arc_Koen> the portal guns adds nothing in the original maps, but can be used to "cheat" - for instance the first time I did that underwater level, I hadn't realized I could swim, so I had to climb all the walls using portals
20:40:27 <Arc_Koen> (which was very hazardous with all the jellyfishes around)
20:46:29 <oerjan> 16:26:15: <itidus21> i have a feeling that learning to "pretend the floor is lava" is something we are genetically compelled to try
20:46:32 <oerjan> 16:26:54: <itidus21> perhaps some dark chapter of human history
20:46:38 <oerjan> when we lived in the trees, i presume
20:46:57 <oerjan> _actual_ lava wouldn't work for this.
20:47:15 <atriq> "The floor is full of tigers and stuff"
20:47:30 <FreeFull> Yeah, the air near lava is hot too
20:47:44 <itidus21> lava was just an absurd lemma for dangerous below
20:47:51 <oerjan> see http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConvectionSchmonvection if you have plenty of time
20:48:02 <Arc_Koen> pretended lava works so much better than actual lava!
20:48:05 <itidus21> im not sure if that is correct use of lemma
20:48:10 <FreeFull> That's why people near lava wear those reflective suits
20:48:38 <oerjan> itidus21: i'm pretty sure it's not the usual use
20:48:49 <Arc_Koen> I think in one of the canary islands, the population had to hide from pirates inside a lava tunnel
20:51:42 <FreeFull> I don't think Tenerife has lava tunnels?
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21:24:56 <Arc_Koen> FreeFull: so how do I go to this 1-2 wrapping world?
21:26:39 <FreeFull> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG_xxm-HSRY
21:28:19 <Arc_Koen> so you need the glitch to go to it
21:28:43 <Arc_Koen> well, I remember this "you can't go back" thingy, but I think it doesn't exist any longer on the current version of mar0
21:32:09 <Arc_Koen> ok, I can see the world after the wall
21:32:15 <Arc_Koen> but I don't know how to get through to it
21:33:21 <Arc_Koen> used the portals to climb to the ceiling
21:40:00 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: ok, finite state automaton
21:40:24 <Arc_Koen> but it can "access" a memory as large as its input
21:49:41 <Arc_Koen> (btw, I don't really know what a transition graph exactly is, but wouldn't that mean that Bipoint is equivalent to FSAs?
21:55:35 <Arc_Koen> hey if I want to implement a deque, is it more usual to call its functions push_front, push_back, pop_front, pop_back, etc., or push_front, push_rear, pop_front, pop_rear, etc.?
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22:02:11 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: it's equivalent to FSA as far as recognizing input is concerned, although obviously not as far as giving output
22:04:14 <Arc_Koen> ...it's been so long I had forgotten automata had input
22:04:18 <oerjan> although i think the output-giving FSAs are not as often teached as the recognizing ones (the former are called transducers, the latter are what is equivalent to regular expressions)
22:06:29 <oerjan> i just learned from wikipedia that it's undecidable whether two FS tranducers are equivalent...
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22:14:10 * itidus21 empties a truckload of transducers into the esolang wiki.
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22:42:22 <Arc_Koen> hmmmm I thought Kipple had no popping mechanism
22:42:47 <Arc_Koen> for instance I thought that "a>b" would push a copy of the topmost element of a onto b
22:43:15 <Arc_Koen> well that's what the description seemed to imply
22:43:18 <Arc_Koen> but "Input is pushed onto stack i before the program is executed"
22:43:38 <Arc_Koen> this seems to imply that reading a character would pop it
22:43:58 <Arc_Koen> (otherwise only the last character inputted can be read)
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23:09:40 <fizzie> @tell Arc_Koen Arguably (but certainly also counterarguably) the fact that the things are called stacks sort of mildly implies that the act of reading involves popping a value. (And the cat example only makes sense that way.)
23:10:31 <oerjan> one, two, three, argue!
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23:12:30 <olsner> "arguably" is a nice word ... is there anything that can't be argued about?
23:13:30 <fizzie> There's no arguing about taste, I've heard.
23:14:37 <fizzie> And clearly all sentences that involve "clearly" are unarguable.
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23:15:48 <Gregor> And because all sentences using the word “clearly” are unarguable, clearly eugenics is pretty great, right guys?
23:16:13 <olsner> it even has good (eu-) in the name
23:16:31 <olsner> if it was bad it would be called malgenics or something
23:19:10 <oerjan> olsner: dysgenics, duh
23:19:25 <oerjan> don't mix your greek and latin
23:20:58 <fizzie> I suppose that also means all EU projects/directives/legislation/bureaucracy/etc. are good things.
23:29:46 <Gregor> fizzie: Please tell me that somewhere, someone, somehow, for some reason, has created the portmanteau “EU-genics”
23:30:52 <olsner> I did find http://philosophers-stone.co.uk/wordpress/2011/02/nazi-eu-genics-sterilisation-scalpels-rolled-out-in-uk/
23:31:04 <fizzie> The Danish grounded outlet: happiest electric outlet? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/107-2-D1_-_Danish_electrical_plugs_-_Studio_2011.jpg/237px-107-2-D1_-_Danish_electrical_plugs_-_Studio_2011.jpg (middle)
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01:17:46 <kmc> i realized something today
01:17:55 <kmc> ORMs are a leaky abstraction because the normal way to manipulate data in your language (e.g. list comprehensions) doesn't translate to efficient database operations
01:18:08 <kmc> the value of something like LINQ is not that it gives you a nice syntax for database queries, but that it makes this the default for everything else, too
01:19:39 <shachaf> That's why I write my entire program in SQL.
01:20:03 <kmc> that is the pro move
01:20:49 <shachaf> http://www2.sqlonrails.org/
01:20:56 <kmc> GHC has those "generalized SQL-like list comprehensions" that I never heard of anyone using
01:21:06 <kmc> I bet they were contributed by one of the database DSL projects
01:21:18 <shachaf> I seem to remember SPJ's name associated with them.
01:21:35 <shachaf> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/list-comp/index.htm
01:22:08 <kmc> sql on rails is an obvious joke because there is no way to build webscale applications without leveraging NoSQL technology
01:24:19 <kmc> you should probably write your business logic in SQL but interface to a NoSQL database for cloudscale storage
01:28:18 <shachaf> kmc: I watched the first two seasons of that television series.
01:39:23 <kmc> 'Skilled users can just fix GCC itself so that it implements nested function calls in a way that does not interfere with PaX.'
01:41:10 <zzo38> Someone once wanted a webpage to keep track of what items they require in the store and what they already have; I wrote it in SQLite Report Generator. So I don't know why you need NoSQL. Yes you can write an entire program in SQL, what I did is similar, I guess, but not quite. How else can you write an entire program in SQL? Probably it depend what SQL is used, since there is some different kinds of SQL?
01:43:02 <pikhq_> I'm not sure that's even possible.
01:43:25 <pikhq_> GCC nested functions are by necessity creating functions on the stack.
01:45:07 <zzo38> Can it be optimized?
01:45:46 <kmc> can't they be lambda lifted
01:46:20 <kmc> i guess they can't, if you want to be able to take the address of the nested function
01:46:39 <kmc> you can't return that pointer but you could still use it locally
01:46:50 <kmc> so it still needs to act kinda like a closure
01:47:03 <pikhq_> They are in fact a really weird form of closure.
01:47:05 <kmc> (but a closure with bounded object lifetime)
01:47:17 <kmc> if you don't allow taking the address, though, then I think you could do them as syntactic sugar
01:47:37 <pikhq_> But the only real reason for them is so you can pass them as callbacks.
01:48:58 <zzo38> You shouldn't disallow taking the address since the address can be used! But in the cases where it knows if you are not going to take the address, or other thing, it might be optimized.
01:50:11 <zzo38> Or, if you use its address but the nested function does not use any local variables (other than static) then it might be changed to global static
01:50:49 <pikhq_> My lambda-in-C thing relies on that behavior, actually.
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02:05:01 <david_werecat> I don't have a fancy phone, so I couldn't play it even if I wanted to.
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02:27:41 <kmc> shachaf: did you know that PaX makes use of GCC plugins?
02:29:16 <kmc> some of the kernel hardening features are implemented with custom compiler passes
02:29:20 <kmc> that's pretty hardcore
02:32:42 <zzo38> What are kernel hardening features?
02:37:48 <kmc> features to make the kernel harder to exploit
02:37:57 <kmc> (and/or make programs running under that kernel harder to exploit)
02:40:59 <shachaf> They should put hardeining features in GCC that make it auto-insert hardening code when it detects that it's compiling GCC.
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03:22:40 <zzo38> Which tests of random number generator does ARCFOUR pass?
03:35:08 <kmc> ha, PaX found an unintended bug in the intentionally-buggy kernel module I'm playing with exploiting
03:35:49 <kmc> one i wrote
03:36:24 <shachaf> Wow, you wrote C code with an unintentional bug in it?
03:36:28 <shachaf> Might as well give up on programming.
03:41:58 <kmc> i'll never be more than an idiot code monkey drone
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03:50:33 <Sgeo_> Oh, hey, I forgot to announce an update monqy wait is kallisti supposed to be on my list I forget
03:50:52 <Sgeo_> But not recent, this was a number of hours ago, should have said something
03:51:01 <kallisti> I am waiting for the series to conclude.
03:51:18 <kallisti> because I enjoy it more when I'm not waiting. >_>
03:51:24 <kallisti> and I assume it will one day end.
03:52:55 <Sgeo_> There's a lot of detailed analysis you will likely never see
04:08:52 <kmc> craigslist's website is so shitty that they're now getting sued over it
04:22:24 <kmc> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2410128,00.asp
04:32:18 <kmc> shachaf: It really was a shameful mistake, though
04:32:26 <kmc> i was using memcpy instead of copy_from_user
04:43:04 <kmc> "Conducting a PowerPoint presentation is a lot like smoking a cigar. Only the person doing it likes it. The people around him want to hit him with a chair."
04:47:32 <pikhq_> Presenting is just reading a teleprompter behind you, right?
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05:25:02 <Gregor> http://youtu.be/LfFhHZq4oJU I have an accordion.
05:25:16 <Gregor> How are you suckers ever going to catch up with my amazingness now?
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05:27:13 <oklopol> no offense but just no way
05:28:12 <pikhq_> Your awesomeness made me spill water on my lap.
05:28:28 <ion> The mic amp’s gain was too high, the sound is distorted.
05:29:44 <Gregor> ion: (a) I apologized for the sound in the description, (b) the “mic” is my phone, so it's not like it can do any better.
05:30:21 <oklopol> "and even apologized for not being better!"
05:30:39 <oklopol> oh Gregor this is such ugly decline
05:30:54 <oklopol> please upload another accordion vid to get back to the top.
05:31:29 <Gregor> Fine, you buy me the professional video equipment.
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05:32:02 <oklopol> you could just make sure ion isn't here so no one notices the bad sound quality?
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05:32:36 <oklopol> anyway that was pretty nice after two days
05:32:52 <oklopol> last time i played the accordion i was like holy fuck this is heavy and that was it
05:33:17 <Gregor> This accordion was literally the first accordion I have ever picked up X-D
05:33:26 <Gregor> And it's definitely heavy, my left shoulder still hurts >_>
05:33:33 <oklopol> my friend used to play but he switched to drums because he grew up and became boring
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05:34:42 <oklopol> and i switched from piano to the electric guitar. not quite as bad but i'm not proud of it.
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05:35:17 <Gregor> Piano -> piano+viola -> piano -> piano+accordion
05:35:34 <ion> Simultaneously?
05:35:47 <Gregor> ion: That would be… quite the trick.
05:36:35 <oklopol> accordion is kind of annoyingly asymmetric
05:36:44 <oklopol> piano was so nice in that respect
05:37:02 <zzo38> I know someone who plays acoustic guitar, and I saw someone on television once who can play both acoustic guitar and electric guitar
05:37:15 <zzo38> How is accordion is kind of annoyingly asymmetric?
05:37:46 <oklopol> you're such a markov chain but umm leftie does different than rightie
05:38:17 <zzo38> I don't know how to play accordion but I think I may understand what you mean now.
05:38:30 <Gregor> zzo38: The left hand buttons play chords, and are not arranged chromatically.
05:38:43 <oklopol> "I saw someone on television once who can play both acoustic guitar and electric guitar" they are kind of pretty damn similar :D
05:38:45 <zzo38> Then how are they arranged?
05:38:47 <Gregor> It's not really suitable for the same kind of music as e.g. a piano.
05:39:06 <ion> oklopol: THAT WAS THE JOKE.
05:39:12 <Gregor> zzo38: Vertically is the circle of fifths, horizontally is a selection of chords: Principle, major, minor, seventh, diminished.
05:39:13 <oklopol> don't most accordions also have some kinda chromatic register or whatever for leftie
05:39:32 <ion> “I saw someone on television once who can play both acoustic guitar and electric guitar”
05:39:45 <zzo38> oklopol: Yes, I know it is similar; that person plays both though (some people play only one). But they do play different kind of music. And I think even electric guitar involves acoustics?
05:39:55 <ion> That couldn’t possibly be anything other than a joke.
05:40:04 <oklopol> i'm like 100% sure it wasn't a joke.
05:40:08 <zzo38> Actually, it was a TV show.
05:40:34 <ion> I’m 100 % sure it was a joke. I don’t know whether it was intentional, though.
05:41:31 <ion> FWIW, i found it funny.
05:43:04 <itidus21> i can eat sandwiches with two pieces of bread and sandwiches with three pieces of bread.
05:43:43 <ion> I don’t believe in the existence of sandwiches with three pieces of bread.
05:43:53 <zzo38> I can play piano, and I don't know how to play other music instrument very well.
05:44:41 <itidus21> ion: it's an elegant way to do 1.5 sandwiches
05:44:54 <ion> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZBXA4ye_us&fmt=18
05:45:09 <itidus21> but you gain an extra 25% topping
05:46:33 <zzo38> But sometimes I do write music on paper
05:47:54 <ion> http://johan.kiviniemi.name/music/delusions_of_grand_piano.pdf
05:47:57 <itidus21> given 3 slices of bread, the maximum fillings space is to cover each piece separately in toppings/fillings
05:48:26 <itidus21> or you can stack them.. which.. gives you 2/3 as many fillings
05:48:31 <Sgeo_> monqy, tswett foo bar
05:48:48 <oklopol> ion: just to clarify, both the recording and the score thing were for zzo38 :P but this works too
05:49:05 <ion> oklopol: Yeah, i figured that, i felt like spamming anyway. :-P
05:49:08 <zzo38> I do not have a scanner and the scores are a bit messy anyways, but I put some music I made into computer, into .NSF file one is "zzo38_1.nsf" I wrote directly on the computer, but "zzo38_2.nsf" I wrote on paper first and then put into computer, but you can also download the MML file.
05:49:11 <itidus21> or you can present them as 1.5 sandwiches, which gives you 1/2 as much filling as the first
05:49:42 <zzo38> I know some people who have a scanner so if I could find the paper of the music, I could scan it.
05:50:44 <zzo38> But two musics I have written, one I wrote directly on MML, one on paper and then I put it in MML
05:51:58 <zzo38> Some people say it is too difficult to compose music with MML, but other people don't believe them.
05:52:09 <itidus21> i think you don't believe them
05:52:32 <ion> oklopol: I’m in one and i’ve had a bunch of projects with ad hoc groups out of my circle of friends over the years. Nothing serious with ambitions so far.
05:52:59 <zzo38> Well, I am one of them; I think it can easily to compose music by MML, as easily as to normally compose music; at least to me this is easiest way for me.
05:53:39 <itidus21> i think that a talent with thinking music helps with esolangs
05:53:48 <itidus21> some might say i was making excuses thouhg
05:55:51 <zzo38> itidus21: Are you sure? Sometimes there is some silence and it must sit still
05:55:54 <itidus21> it seems to my mind to be a bit like animation where it is dependant on playback speed
05:56:16 <ion> John Cage – 4′33″
05:56:37 <zzo38> ion: Yes in that case, there is all silence and it must sit still.
05:57:02 <itidus21> all i know is i like many music
05:57:47 <itidus21> in some cases i attribute it to simply being exposed to the song again and again
05:58:13 <zzo38> I also like many musics, and some I don't like much, but I always like classical music.
05:58:15 <itidus21> but that doesn't explain it right
05:58:28 <itidus21> if i am exposed to some songs i dont like it
06:00:23 <ion> For some reason my brain can’t stand the style of singing often used in classical music. The most painful aspect is the huge vibrato, i think. But i like classical otherwise.
06:01:09 <zzo38> They don't always sing. Often it is instrumental only.
06:01:28 <ion> Yes. I’m listening to Rachmaninov’s piano pieces right now.
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06:10:01 <ion> Two Dogs Dining http://youtu.be/EVwlMVYqMu4
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06:26:38 <fizzie> "I am aware of the unsafe nature of the internet,I was compelled to use this medium due to the nature of this project.Permit me however I am a project coordinator with an oil & Gas consortium I have access to very vital information that can be used to transfer a huge amount of money from an Oil & Gas project account to a secured account ."
06:26:44 <fizzie> Sounds legit, as always.
06:27:26 <fizzie> Sadly, they do not specify the particular "huge amount" in question. It's always so impolite; I can't now sort all my lucrative offers by the amount of profit promised.
06:33:36 <itidus21> i have boring email spam.. 5 about diablo 3, 4 from fuckbook
06:35:06 <mroman> How does one update a branch (git) from a remote repository?
06:36:03 <ion> That updates the state of the remote repo.
06:36:12 <ion> Then you can merge from or rebase against one of the remote branches.
06:36:19 <ion> git pull does both fetch and merge.
06:36:35 <mroman> I have no idea what git fetch does
06:36:40 <mroman> but it does not download newly added files.
06:36:50 <mroman> and git pull merged it into master
06:36:53 <mroman> and I don't want that.
06:38:15 <mroman> Does it merge in the currently checkedout branch.
06:39:10 <mroman> Wouldn't it be better to rebase?
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06:40:25 <mroman> If I'm working on branch B, and somebody updates branch A, I can rebase my branch B to branch A
06:40:35 <mroman> so I have the commits from branch A also in my branch?
06:42:53 <fizzie> "git pull" does merge into currently checked-out branch, to answer one question in the middle.
06:43:13 <fizzie> Oh, and rebasing can easily be better.
06:44:42 <mroman> git fetch + get rebase should be enough I think.
06:46:07 <fizzie> I don't have very complicated git use experience, but at least "check out the remote-tracking branch, git pull, check out my local branch, rebase on the tracking" seems to have worked rather well, especially in the case where the local branch is meant to be merged back sooner or later. I suppose technically you shouldn't need the tracking branch.
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12:11:58 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
12:12:03 <lambdabot> fizzie said 13h 2m 23s ago: Arguably (but certainly also counterarguably) the fact that the things are called stacks sort of mildly implies that the act of reading involves popping a value. (And the
12:12:04 <lambdabot> cat example only makes sense that way.)
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12:13:31 <Arc_Koen> well, yes everything that involves i only makes sense that way
12:15:11 <fizzie> I would've wanted to say that the Fibonacci example also would've made sense in that way only, but that would've involved understanding some Kipple code.
12:15:52 <fizzie> (It's possible it works with both interpretations for all I know.)
12:16:33 <fizzie> I suppose the (t>@ (@>o) 32>o) is not going to terminate ever if > doesn't pop.
12:20:19 <Arc_Koen> looking into the fibonacci code seems to imply that + does make a copy
12:21:15 <Arc_Koen> because if we look at stack a only, the program starts with "1>a t<a>b+a"
12:21:33 <Arc_Koen> uh, wait, I meant "1>a a+0 t<a>b+a"
12:21:47 <Arc_Koen> so I guess a+0 is supposed to duplicate a's top element
12:22:34 <Arc_Koen> hmm, but then there are only two elements in a, so a cannot give one element to t, one element to b, and then again one element to be added to b's top element
12:22:45 <fizzie> Are you trying to say that, after cleverly avoiding it yesterday, I am now *still* going to have to understand some Kipple code.
12:23:45 <Arc_Koen> well the problem is, the description of the language is quite simple
12:23:58 <Arc_Koen> and then there are examples, which look different and not as simple
12:24:32 <Arc_Koen> for instance there is no mention of the "sharing operands" ability of kipple's operators, which is something pretty unusual in programming languages, I think
12:24:53 <fizzie> Unusual and I find it also very confuzzling.
12:25:06 <Arc_Koen> I guess a kipple code is supposed to be a sequence of numbers, stack identifiers, and operators
12:25:26 <fizzie> The "-" description doesn't even mention that it has a left operand.
12:25:32 <Arc_Koen> and the interpreter must consider numbers and stack identifiers as no-ops, and apply operators to the left and right operands
12:25:48 <Arc_Koen> well I think it is reasonable to assume that "-" works exactly like "+"
12:27:47 <Arc_Koen> (though at this point I may be assuming too much to understand how it works precisely)
12:27:52 <fizzie> Anyway, it's true that if + and - were to pop when the operand is a stack identifier, it sounds terribly difficult to e.g. dup anything.
12:29:32 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: The official spec, though, is pretty clear.
12:29:38 <fizzie> "The Push operator takes the operand to the left and pushes it onto the specified stack. E.g. 12>a will push the value 12 onto stack a. a>b will pop the topmost value from stack a and push it onto stack b. Popping an empty stack always returns 0. a<b is equivalent with b>a."
12:29:45 <fizzie> "The Add operator pushes the sum of the topmost item on the stack and the operand onto the stack. If the operand is a stack, then the value is popped from it. E.g. if the topmost value of stack a is 1, then a+2 will push 3 onto it. If a is empty, then a+2 will push 2 onto it. If the topmost values of stack a and b are 1 and 2, then a+b will pop the value 2 from stack b and push 3 onto stack a."
12:30:23 <fizzie> So the + seems to only pop from the right, so to speak.
12:31:05 <fizzie> The Wiki summarization could do with some clarifications/improvements.
12:31:20 <fizzie> Especially since the official spec is only in the Archive.
12:32:41 <Arc_Koen> ok, I think I'll add some clarifications
12:32:57 <Arc_Koen> popping an empty stack gives 0, that explains the fibonacci
12:34:50 <zzo38> I think for it to work, the streams in REVER have to be stacks rather than queues.
12:37:02 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: ok, now the fibonacci programs seems to work properly, after a few iterations I get n: [24 23 22 21 20] t: [0 1 1 2 3] a: [3 5] b: [] c: []
12:38:16 <Arc_Koen> hmm, apparently the numbers will be outputted in reverse order, though
12:38:55 <Arc_Koen> "while t is not empty, t>@, (@>o) 32>o"
12:39:11 <Arc_Koen> oh, or the stack o is reversed when the program halts
12:40:32 <Arc_Koen> yes that would make sense - though I don't understand why prevent interactive io this way, he could just have said "when a value is pushed onto stack o, it is printed as a side effect" and "when popping from i while it is empty, it takes a char from standard input instead of giving 0"
12:50:52 <fizzie> I haven't really understood the no-interactivity thing either.
12:51:00 <fizzie> Perhaps a personal idiosyncracy.
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13:07:44 <Arc_Koen> that is, what operand is evaluated first
13:08:35 <Arc_Koen> hmm, I mean if a = [1], does it set it to [1+1] or to [1+0]
13:11:18 <fizzie> "The program 1>a<2 a+a will result in a containing the values [1 4] and not [1 3]."
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13:22:17 <Arc_Koen> he just said that to make the interpreter more complicated :o
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14:26:45 <itidus21> ok here is a language. it's called "You don't know Jack". the only valid program is the name of the true identity of jack the ripper, and the program prints "Hello, world!"
14:27:32 <itidus21> it is left to interpretation whether there is more than one valid program
14:27:53 <FreeFull> And couldn't you find out the right string by reading the compiler source
14:28:32 <itidus21> well i mean... as anyone who has played a trivia bot knows, peoples names are never spelled how we expect them to be
14:28:42 <itidus21> so there may be more than one correct string
14:29:13 <itidus21> well.. first someone has to write a compiler/interpreter for that to happen
14:37:07 <itidus21> bad joke since i haven't actually any non-joke esolangs to my name
14:39:00 <itidus21> in regards to how music is sometimes still, animation is the same way. in some cases it's too easy to accuse animators of reducing cost when they have no moving images in a scene
14:41:50 <Arc_Koen> "we're not reducing costs, we're doing it manga-style!"
14:44:13 <itidus21> i know what im talking about :D
14:44:17 <kmc> 'Police arrested a Cambridge man with 4 lbs. of marijuana and $5,400 in cash after stopping him for “excessive window tint.”'
14:46:25 <quintopia> kmc: thank god. we need to get those people off the road.
14:47:05 <itidus21> i think my random outbursts are unsolicited yet... in grand theft auto you never found anything in the car
14:47:16 <kmc> what's the point of being a drug dealer if you can't have a ridiculous car that screams "i'm a drug dealer"
14:47:24 <kmc> that's not true itidus21
14:47:41 <kmc> there was at least one mission where you have to pick up a car with a body in the trunk
14:47:45 <kmc> and get it to the car crusher
14:47:48 <kmc> pulp fiction style
14:48:04 <kmc> and people (cops? rival gang? whatever) would be ramming your car, causing damage
14:48:17 <kmc> and if it got enough damage the trunk would pop open and you would see the dead guy inside on the 3rd person camera
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15:06:45 <Phantom__Hoover> kmc, wait, if they were ramming into you all the way wouldn't they just take the body out of the car after you left it?
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15:09:03 <quintopia> Phantom__Hoover: you leave it in a car crusher. they will leave it if they want to live.
15:09:35 <Phantom__Hoover> yeah man, once a car crusher starts there is no force of man nor god that can stop its descent
15:12:06 <Phantom__Hoover> the car crusher is actually made out of repurposed doors from half-life
15:23:14 <Arc_Koen> !dlroW olleFatal error: exception Invalid_argument("index out of bounds")
15:23:45 <Arc_Koen> for whatever reason the 'H' disappeared
15:26:16 <kmc> you have to get away from the people who are following you
15:26:56 <kmc> this is a game where if you have a dozen cops chasing you, you can drive into a garage and have them repaint the car
15:27:06 <kmc> and the cops waiting outside will just leave
15:27:16 <kmc> "oh, damn guys, the car we were chasing was red, this one is blue"
15:27:53 <kmc> it's a pretty silly mechanic really
15:28:18 <kmc> in gta4 they got rid of this and introduced a new system
15:28:59 <kmc> now there is a radius on the map of where the cops are looking for you, and you have to stay outside that area for some amount of time
15:30:20 <Arc_Koen> tinted windows on a red car? what a lack of taste!
15:33:49 <itidus21> apparently there was a bug once which caused the cops to go crazy pursuing you
15:34:23 <itidus21> i would love for that to happen at least once in my life
15:34:37 <itidus21> a lucky accident which makes me rich or famous
15:36:58 <kmc> there were those tourists in NYC who got into an unlicensed taxi at the airport
15:37:14 <kmc> the cops went after the taxi and a high-speed chase ensued
15:37:39 <kmc> long story short, the tourists got to manhattan for free and in record time
15:43:07 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: my kipple interpreter works!
15:43:20 <Arc_Koen> it doesn't respect the specs at all, though
15:43:31 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Such disrespect.
15:44:08 <Arc_Koen> well i and o are interactive, and stack identifiers can be any string, not just one character
15:44:33 <Arc_Koen> (the string must consist of a-z, A-Z and @ only, though)
15:45:06 <fizzie> I was thinking you could've made the IO stack a single thing, with output pushery and input poppery.
15:45:25 <Arc_Koen> but then I thought maybe it was better to make them actual stacks
15:45:51 <Arc_Koen> input only happens when try to pop i while it's empty; pushing o prints the character *and* pushes it
15:46:51 <Arc_Koen> (and I didn't want to brave the specs as much as merging the two stacks)
15:47:43 <Arc_Koen> though if I do I guess I should improve @ as well to ease number input
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17:58:52 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: keeping i and o as actual stacks allows me to do stuff like that: " i>a+0 a>o a-48 a? a>b (a>o>a) "
17:59:14 <Arc_Koen> the (a>o>a) is an infinite loop of printing a's top element
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17:59:47 <Arc_Koen> ("give a to output, then take it back to give it again next iteration")
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18:01:48 <fizzie> Yes, it would certainly be a shame to have to write (a+0 a>o) or something.
18:02:28 <Arc_Koen> well ok if you put it like that
18:02:46 <Arc_Koen> but there's that language based on input and output which name I have forgiven
18:03:07 <Arc_Koen> I'm sure it would be way more easy to implement it with i and o being actual stacks
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18:24:46 <atriq> "Buddhist Iron Man Found By Nazis Is From Space"
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18:24:57 <atriq> I didn't realise the Daily Sport was still about
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20:06:19 <nortti> it seems opera has made opera mini for android usable again
20:07:31 <nortti> it no longer crashes regulary and it doesn't seem to leak memory
20:08:35 <nortti> is it bad that I am surprided about browsee not leaking memory
20:09:50 <nortti> it might be horrible rendering wise but it is solid as rock and just works
20:10:20 <nortti> well after you tweak it for a week but still
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20:25:44 <shachaf> kmc: http://hpaste.org/75174
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20:35:56 <Lumpio-> I think the builtin webkit browser in Android is good
20:36:09 <Lumpio-> then again most webkit browsers are
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20:39:55 <atriq> Safari isn't very good
20:40:21 <atriq> One of my friends recently switched from Safari to Internet Explorer and was amazed at the speed
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20:40:42 <atriq> He's gonna slowly traverse through to Chrome so he doesn't shock himself.
20:57:18 <zzo38> If you are born on Feb.29 (a.k.a. St. Tib's Day), then officially the rule is your birthday is on Mar.1 if it is not a leap year. However, there is another solution which does not involve the calendar: Regardless of your date of birth, celebrate when the ecliptic longitude of the sun equals what it was at the time of your birth.
20:59:01 <atriq> That's a very you thing to say
20:59:06 <atriq> Good thing it was you who said it
21:02:05 <olsner> is there an official rule for birthdays? isn't the whole birthday thing just a convention anyway, and you can really celebrate it whenever you want
21:02:07 <oerjan> zzo38: that would probably mean some people occasionally have to celebrate on a different calendar day than they were born, even if not on Feb. 29...
21:02:57 <oerjan> it's not like people don't move celebrations to more convenient times
21:03:02 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, I know, it is the non-calendar way. Of course you may not like it and you can use whatever you prefer I don't care.
21:03:27 <zzo38> I just made one possibility, as well as mentioning the official way. But there are other ways too.
21:03:59 <oerjan> official in canada, and possibly elsewhere.
21:04:30 <atriq> I'm gonna celebrate my birthday on bonfire night
21:06:03 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
21:06:35 <atriq> (when the bonfire is in celebration of Guy Fawkes or whatever)
21:06:42 <atriq> (well, his capture)
21:06:54 <atriq> (so, the closest Saturday to November 5th)
21:06:59 <atriq> (in Hexham at least)
21:07:12 <atriq> (WHICH COINCIDES WITH MY EIGHTEENTH BIRTHDAY)
21:09:13 <oerjan> just don't get so drunk you fall into the bonfire.
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21:23:30 <atriq> On a channel in a different server, there's 6 of us pretending to be the same person
21:23:36 <atriq> (one of us is actually that person)
21:26:25 <oerjan> is Taneb and ngevd in on this?
21:27:00 <atriq> We're trying to figure out who the first impostorr was
21:27:10 <atriq> By making there more impostors
21:27:43 <oerjan> impost hoc, erco impropter hoc
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22:22:42 <Arc_Koen> what's that "Hm okay."! you're supposed to either say "yes it's obvious" or "Hm it's likely but let's prove it" or "If you think so then prove it!" or something
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22:44:07 <oerjan> i wasn't fully aware of the concept of a moore machine. i had somehow internalized that transducers could have multiple output per input.
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22:55:35 <Arc_Koen> hey do we have a fancy binary-to-decimal converter on lambdabot?
22:56:10 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `b01000001100000011'
22:57:04 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `eval'Not in scope: `b01000001100000011'
22:57:40 <oerjan> > showInt 2 (const True) digitToInt "01000001100000011"
22:57:41 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Base.String'
22:57:46 <oerjan> > showInt 2 (const True) digitToInt "01000001100000011" ""
22:57:47 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Base.String'
22:57:53 <lambdabot> forall a. (Integral a) => a -> String -> String
22:58:05 <oerjan> > showIntAtBase 2 (const True) digitToInt "01000001100000011" ""
22:58:05 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char'
22:58:14 <lambdabot> forall a. (Integral a) => a -> (Int -> Char) -> a -> String -> String
22:58:36 <oerjan> > readInt 2 (const True) digitToInt "01000001100000011"
22:59:17 <Gregor> Wow, it's so clear and intuitive, too.
23:00:03 <oerjan> although it doesn't support non-Strings
23:01:58 <Arc_Koen> > readInt 2 (const True) digitToInt "01010011000101011"
23:02:41 <Arc_Koen> so that's 16-bit, I'm sure I can find that in Pi
23:02:49 <lambdabot> forall a. (Num a) => a -> (Char -> Bool) -> (Char -> Int) -> String -> [(a, String)]
23:02:52 <Arc_Koen> that would be the first Another Pi Language program!
23:03:29 <Arc_Koen> what the hell of a type is that... I think ocaml's read_int has type unit
23:04:44 <Arc_Koen> I mean, your readInt doesn't even return an int??
23:06:22 <fizzie> @type readInt 2 (const False) digitToInt
23:06:23 <lambdabot> forall t. (Num t) => String -> [(t, String)]
23:06:37 <fizzie> Is that better/simpler?
23:07:11 <fizzie> @type readInt (2 :: Integer) (const False) digitToInt
23:09:59 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: it returns [] if it doesn't parse and [(n, restOfString)] if it parses. (theoretically it could return multiple element if there was an ambiguous parse)
23:10:12 <oerjan> it's the API for the Read typeclass
23:12:15 <oerjan> > readInt 2 (const True) digitToInt "010abc"
23:12:36 <oerjan> > readInt 2 (`elem` "01") digitToInt "010abc"
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23:16:41 <fizzie> !perl print oct("0b01010011000101011") # then there's this
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00:21:28 <kmc> shachaf: I kinda want to write a GCC plugin!
00:21:31 <kmc> but i don't know what it would do
00:22:50 <lambdabot> <kmc> says: head [] = peek . intPtrToPtr . fromIntegral . unsafePerformIO . randomRIO $ (0, 2^32)
00:24:23 <zzo38> What does this program to do? Receive random data from memory and then crash?
00:24:25 <pikhq_> void*head(list*x){return *(void**)rand();} eh?
00:24:42 <Jafet> Well, it would if there was an extra unsafePerformIO at the front
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00:26:48 <shachaf> zzo38: It might not crash!
00:27:18 <shachaf> kmc: What sort of interface do GCC plugins use?
00:27:27 <Jafet> The gcc plugin one
00:27:29 <kmc> i don't know
00:27:34 <kmc> http://forums.grsecurity.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3043
00:27:38 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose it might not crash, but it seems likely to crash as far as I can understand.
00:28:20 <kmc> void f() { read(open("/dev/urandom", O_RDONLY), f, 4096); }
00:28:32 <shachaf> Apparently GHC supports plugins as of 7.2?
00:28:40 <shachaf> You should write a GHC plugin instead!
00:29:17 <Jafet> But that's boring and useful
00:32:47 <shachaf> kmc: Why is there a generic memcpy() rather than copy_user_to_kernel, copy_kernel_to_kernel, and so on?
00:33:07 <shachaf> I'd think that you'd know which one you're doing most of the time, and you could have optional checks for it.
00:34:10 <kmc> i think memcpy() is effectively copy_kernel_to_kernel
00:34:13 <kmc> it's just a familiar name
00:34:47 <kmc> copying userspace to userspace with memcpy would generally not be safe
00:35:34 <shachaf> OK, and I guess PaX provided that optional check.
00:35:47 <kmc> when copying from/to userspace, the kernel must explicitly check that the entire range lies within the userspace area of memory (e.g. under 0xC0000000 on i386), but the more fine-grained checking of "is every page mapped" is still up to the MMU
00:36:23 <kmc> which means that page faults within copy_{from,to}_user must be handled differently from other faults in kernel mode, which would oops the kernel
00:37:46 <kmc> Linux has a general mechanism for annotating any instruction in the kernel with "if a fault happens here, jump here instead of oopsing"
00:40:13 <kmc> copy_{from,to}_user use this, and return the number of bytes that were not copied
00:40:29 <kmc> and system call implementations will do something like if (copy_from_user(foo, bar, n)) return -EFAULT;
00:41:30 <shachaf> So I guess the three cases that are relevant are covered by copy_from_user(), copy_to_user(), memcpy().
00:42:33 <kmc> well, you might legitimately want to copy from userspace to userspace
00:42:43 <kmc> it's just that the code for doing so needs some additional checks that the kernel memcpy does not need
00:43:11 <kmc> it needs the bounds checks, and then it needs those "fixup" annotations in case of unmapped pages
00:43:21 <shachaf> Right -- I mean that those three cases are covered explicitly.
00:44:19 <kmc> i bet the fourth is implemented in the library as well
00:45:04 <kmc> http://lxr.linux.no/linux+v3.5.4/arch/x86/lib/usercopy_64.c#L55
00:46:27 <kmc> also there are shortcuts for a single scalar -- put_user, get_user, etc.
00:46:50 <kmc> and strncpy_from_user!
00:47:43 <kmc> https://blogs.oracle.com/ksplice/entry/anatomy_of_an_exploit_cve mentions the problem with interfaces that look like familiar things from userspace but have extra side conditions
00:48:19 <Sgeo> monqy, tswett potato
00:48:39 <kmc> by the way, i-CAN-haz-MODHARDEN.c (an exploit for CVE-2010-2959) uses a faulting copy_from_user in an interesting way
00:49:05 <Sgeo> Oh, right, you potato too
00:49:29 <Phantom__Hoover> i hope this is not a racist joke at my irish heritage Sgeo
00:50:00 <Sgeo> The Homestuck IRC channel I'm in at one point said "potato" for updates. I forget why.
00:50:12 <kmc> specifically, it sends a packet from a partially unmapped buffer, in order to make some kernel code return after overflowing a kernel heap buffer but before zeroing that buffer
00:51:29 <shachaf> kmc: That Ksplice Post Importer fellow sure wrote a lot of posts!
00:53:08 <Sgeo> Is there some more accepted term for "potato" than "potato" that I'm not aware of? Maybe "potatoe"
00:54:34 <monqy> @ask elliott 17:53:08 <Sgeo> Is there some more accepted term for "potato" than "potato" that I'm not aware of? Maybe "potatoe"
00:57:48 <coppro> boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew
01:07:06 <Phantom__Hoover> as an irishman i can say conclusively that the correct term is 'awful yellow thing that should just be burnt before it can inflict more suffering'
01:12:33 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ritaljhhk7s
01:26:58 <pikhq_> As an American, "Potato... Is that a kind of corn?"
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02:17:34 <madbr> hard challenge of the moment: try to come up with a 32 bit version of the 6502 that isn't grossly inefficient (without using out of order execution)
02:18:50 <madbr> it's really hard :D
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02:21:30 <madbr> it really has too few registers
02:24:04 <madbr> so you can't put in instruction latencies anywhere
02:25:19 <madbr> nothing has alignment requirements
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03:02:21 <lambdabot> newsham says: It's harder to get the same excitement you got from learning something new. Remember when recursion could blow your mind? Now you gotta use delimited continuations.
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03:11:19 <Sgeo> Is there some sort of proof about being able to fake any monad with continuations?
03:16:13 <zzo38> I don't think it is exactly true; it is only partially. There is Cont monad, but you can also make many of monads using Codensity, and Cont really is a kind of Codensity as (Cont x) is like (Codensity (Const x)).
03:19:40 <Sgeo> I have no idea what Codensity is
03:20:56 <zzo38> newtype Codensity f x = Codensity (forall z. (x -> f z) -> f z);
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03:26:04 <Sgeo> I wish there was a transform on executables such that, when the new executable tries to allocate memory and there isn't enough, it pops up a dialog saying that. If the user then closes other things then clicks ok on the dialog, the program resumes
03:43:35 <zzo38> The instances for Codensity are the same as for Cont.
03:52:52 <Sgeo> tswett, monqy potatoe
03:55:24 <tswett> If Homestuck could do me a favor and stop updating for a while...
04:02:06 <lambdabot> kmc: says: "monads are like containers, as long as you forget everything you know about containers, and treat it as a synonym for 'monad'"
04:02:11 <lambdabot> kmc> says: laziness unifies control flow and data flow the way that relativity unifies time and space
04:02:26 <shachaf> Get your nicks straight, @rememberers!
04:02:38 <lambdabot> kmc_ says: agda is super mutant haskell
04:03:05 <Sgeo> Pretty sure that laziness is not intended for imperative control flow
04:07:59 <kmc> about monads and containers
04:18:36 <Sgeo> Combine a highly flammable element with the stuff that lets flames flame and you get a substance that can put out fires.
04:18:46 * Sgeo is amused by this for some reasons.
05:09:49 <kmc> :t $ ($) <$>
05:10:51 <lambdabot> No quotes match. It can only be attributed to human error.
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05:15:36 <coppro> do you want to read some draft legislation?
05:15:57 <tswett> I should probably get to sleep.
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05:28:58 <Sgeo> If a site ceases to exist, and because of that, Internet Archive notices that there's no robot.txt and suddenly allows everyone access to all the stuff that was on the site, is it acceptable to use that?
05:32:56 <kmc> they don't use the historical robots.txt?
05:33:29 <Sgeo> I don't think so
05:34:03 <Sgeo> Oh, there wasn't a coherent robots.txt
05:34:11 <Sgeo> http://web.archive.org/web/20110713042823/http://www.cybertown.com/robots.txt
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06:34:03 <kallisti> anyone playing magic the gathering?
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06:45:42 <zzo38> I sometimes play Magic: the Gathering cards
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08:04:44 <itidus21> i find it is tempting to think of anything with the same number of states as being identical. such as thinking heads and tails are exactly the same thing as 0 and 1 and exactly the same thing as black and white, but surely it cannot be so
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08:07:29 <Sgeo> tswett, don't know if I should ping
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12:17:15 <Phantom_Hoover> of course it's only supported on ubuntu but it's a start
12:21:28 <nortti> 23:35 < Lumpio-> I think the builtin webkit browser in Android is good // it is complete shit on htc wildfire (2.2)
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12:31:49 <Lumpio-> nortti: 2.2 is also two and a half years old
12:32:11 <Lumpio-> Consumer hardware usually falls behind enough to become sluggish in that time.
12:32:58 <Jafet> Hardware runs slower as time goes by?
12:33:06 <Jafet> That... explains a lot
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12:38:03 <nortti> Jafet: no. software just gets even more horribly bloated
12:38:25 <Jafet> Oh, that's what the sloppy hardware manufacturers WANT YOU TO THINK.
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12:39:06 <nortti> well why does it still run old software fast?
12:39:10 <Jafet> The circuit paths get clogged up over the years by stray electrons, quantum wells dry up
12:39:30 <Jafet> The old software has been broken in.
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15:09:59 <atriq> Well, I finally stopped reading Misfile today
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15:26:34 <fizzie> atriq: You were so offended by the concept of christmas presents, right?
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15:50:06 <tswett> Sgeo_: nah, my RSS doodad will take care of it.
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16:16:48 <fizzie> There seems to be 189 participants in the "Campus 2015" competition, where the objective is to "find new concepts and create a lively and interactive environment for research and learning activities wherein work, studies, leisure, and living are interwoven in a natural way and create the foundation for a university city of the future", or in practice plan 50000 m^2 of floor space for the ...
16:16:54 <fizzie> ... School of Arts, Design and Architecture who would presumably be moving in from their current place.
16:18:00 <fizzie> (Aalto University is a combination of three universities; one of technology, one of business, and one of arts. They all currently more or less live in their old campusises.)
16:18:39 <fizzie> Anyway, the submissions have been submitted under a pseudonym. Now, I haven't seen the entries, but purely based on the names, I hope "Purple Chicken" wins.
16:19:45 <fizzie> Though I suppose a campus designed by THE HUG could possibly be very friendly too.
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16:27:46 <itidus21> fizzie: i think no matter what you do, an individual must undergo suffering
16:28:35 <itidus21> i hate making general claims. i always need to take them back.
16:30:54 <itidus21> i think i'm attracted to the grandeur of the general claim
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16:46:01 <atriq> fizzie, hehe, I've been meaning to stop reading it for a while, never actually bothered
17:00:12 <atriq> Realised I wasn't enjoying reading it at all a couple of weeks ago
17:00:58 <atriq> I think when you realise that reading something is a chore, it's a signal to stop reading
17:01:08 <atriq> Unless you need to read it, for homework or something
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17:35:05 <Phantom_Hoover> from what she showed me of the script it's a depressing ripped-from-the-headlines slice of life drama
17:35:37 <Phantom_Hoover> but then there's one scene where some obnoxious child is pestering her mother and then i swear to god, slenderman comes out of the fucking cupboard and drags her in
17:36:51 <Phantom_Hoover> i read quite a long way ahead and it appears that this is never explained nor adequately developed upon
18:00:03 <itidus21> i know of slice of life as an anime genre, slenderman is an fps-like game
18:02:29 * itidus21 looks up slice of life at tvtropes
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18:34:33 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Sounds very Slice of Life, yes.
18:34:47 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: One of those average days… slenderman comes out and eats your child… very normal.
18:35:24 <Phantom_Hoover> well it's in many ways a kinder alternative to putting them into care
18:36:42 <itidus21> the boogieman - protecting children from a broken childcare system since 1862
18:37:25 <Phantom_Hoover> in this case, more protecting the childcare system from annoying little shits
18:37:29 <atriq> I know Slenderman as a nickname for a character in a slice of life drama about an insane guy with a friend who turns out to be insane too
18:38:34 <atriq> I got bored after the second season
18:41:21 <atriq> He thought his camera was cursed or something
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18:42:00 <atriq> But he had a strange compulsion to film himself at all time
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19:26:26 <oerjan> <Phantom__Hoover> as an irishman i can say conclusively that the correct term is 'awful yellow thing that should just be burnt before it can inflict more suffering' <-- i guess that explains those famines
19:28:00 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Is there some sort of proof about being able to fake any monad with continuations?
19:28:24 <fizzie> oerjan: Is this yellow thing the sun?
19:28:46 <oerjan> fizzie: i thought it was a potato
19:28:57 <fizzie> I didn't see the context.
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19:29:31 <fizzie> In retrospect, you probably wouldn't speak of burning a sun. Or. Hm.
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19:31:43 <oerjan> oh it was filinski not felleisen
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19:31:52 <FreeFull> Well, it's not much of a burning, it's more of a fusing
19:32:11 <oerjan> Sgeo_: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary;jsessionid=C7DD144AB578DC0ADF2245B7EC33F65F?doi=10.1.1.43.8213
19:40:48 <oerjan> <itidus21> fizzie: i think no matter what you do, an individual must undergo suffering <-- i am trying hard not to believe that, but so far my evidence is sadly inadequate.
19:41:27 <atriq> Suffering is relative
19:41:35 <itidus21> oerjan: its a very broad statement
19:41:45 <itidus21> its not nearly specific enough
19:41:46 <oerjan> atriq: i'm trying hard not to believe that, too :P
19:42:29 <itidus21> after further reflection, i think the thing of it is, must undergo challenges
19:42:45 <itidus21> and challenges can be percieved as suffering
19:42:57 <oerjan> i have this sort of meditation exercise which can make me convinced everything is ok with the world. and then collapses horribly.
19:43:04 <fizzie> Now that you've copy-pasted it, I wonder if I'm supposed to read the "you" as referring to me, but the "individual" as to something
19:43:34 <fizzie> So that no matter what I do someone else just keeps suffering as a direct result.
19:43:47 <itidus21> fizzie: yeah thats definitely not the case
19:44:00 <oerjan> horribly enough that it's months between every time i try it.
19:44:12 <itidus21> i got in a bitter argument about someone once who tried to claim that
19:44:44 <itidus21> oh i think you and individual as synonyms though
19:55:34 <atriq> oerjan, people who have lived a life of luxury will suffer in situations where those who have lived a life of poverty would be enthralled
19:56:13 <itidus21> my stumbling over words doesn't help
19:58:57 <itidus21> atriq: sometimes i wonder, does the quality of past experiences matter in the present
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20:00:17 <itidus21> is the present constructed based on the past
20:00:41 <oerjan> atriq: well ok _that_ way of avoiding suffering is relative, and temporary. (after a while, the mind readjusts to the new conditions.)
20:02:15 <itidus21> the basic idea is that you can't solve the problems of being human
20:02:24 <itidus21> a human will have problems in their life
20:02:30 <itidus21> i guess thats the better way to say it
20:02:37 <itidus21> the problems can be solved one by one
20:02:41 <itidus21> but they can't all be solved at once
20:03:15 <oerjan> itidus21: that's a common idea, yes. doesn't mean it's right.
20:03:45 <itidus21> a person needs to be able to own their problems
20:04:05 <oerjan> it just means that it's how most people rationalize not having been able to find a real solution.
20:04:34 <oerjan> buddha of course claimed he had one.
20:04:54 <oerjan> i don't like that one too much though.
20:06:05 <oerjan> and about 5 years ago, i thought i had found one. (see above meditation comment.)
20:06:10 <itidus21> others can solve our problems.. but... theres no magical efficiency
20:06:25 <itidus21> when it comes to trying to optimize solutions it gets absurd
20:08:41 <oerjan> i probably should start /ignoring itidus
20:09:03 <itidus21> if im making myself anxious.. maybe you also
20:09:17 <oerjan> watching your depression feeds mine
20:09:51 <atriq> Probably insane to some degree
20:10:01 <fizzie> You all are very productive at causing Phantom_Hoovers to flee, there's always that.
20:10:17 <fizzie> Perhaps it could be used to generate energy or something?
20:10:22 <atriq> I should find one of those people who you give a lot of money and they say that you're only insane if it's what you really want to be
20:10:40 <itidus21> on a low level, events work via interrupts right?
20:12:39 <oerjan> itidus21: well on common architectures, afaik
20:12:57 <itidus21> ok so what am i trying to ask.. need to think
20:13:22 <itidus21> i guess the question is of how to not-poll
20:13:54 <kmc> events work in all kinds of ways
20:14:16 <fizzie> Events work in mysterious ways.
20:16:53 <itidus21> if i had , while(a==5) { b++;c++;d++;e++;f++;g++; } .. except i wanted the loop to stop at the very moment where the condition no longer held
20:17:18 <itidus21> a bad example perhaps but maybe it has multiple threads or something
20:17:41 <itidus21> but if its c++ then the ++ operator is possibly overloaded to change a
20:19:59 <itidus21> maybe thats just not possible without doing a conditional after every step
20:20:44 <Gregor> It isn't, and shouldn't, be possible, since the correctness of the program depends heavily on what your definition of a step is.
20:21:52 <itidus21> the impossible things sometimes look so nice since they would make things work more efficiently
20:21:52 <fizzie> As an unrelated thing: Can you do Number a, b, c; c = a**b; resulting in c being a to the b'th power, in C++, by an overloaded Number::operator*() returning a NumberExp_ wrapper, and an overloaded Number operator*(Number a, NumberExp_ b) doing exponentiation? (If so, should you?)
20:22:49 <itidus21> <Phantom_Hoover> oh iti is there anything you can't be wrong about <itidus21> no
20:24:02 <Gregor> fizzie: You probably could, and doing so is punishable by death.
20:24:20 <oerjan> fizzie: that would not have the usual precedence wrt normal multiplication, would it
20:24:38 <itidus21> thanks gregor. i guess the solution then is to use subroutines
20:25:23 <Gregor> Or #define BREAKPOINT if(a!=5)break and then sprinkle BREAKPOINT over your code.
20:26:29 <itidus21> im thinking about a language which would have such a loop
20:26:40 <atriq> I just got really riled by something
20:26:44 <atriq> Like, seriously annoyed
20:26:49 <atriq> And I think I got angry
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20:27:19 * itidus21 tries to remember that last thing atriq got riled by.
20:27:36 <itidus21> people assuming that theres only one kind of
20:28:27 <atriq> Have never watched Buffy
20:28:46 <atriq> Actually, the last thing that made me really angry was DMM's opinion on Monopoly
20:29:15 <Phantom_Hoover> you told us how you wept at hearing your beloved monopoly savaged so
20:29:21 <itidus21> all i can say is it's best not to play monopoly online
20:29:44 <atriq> I'm a Firefly and Avengers person
20:30:31 <atriq> This does not equate to being a Joss Whedon person
20:30:47 <atriq> I'm not that bothered
20:31:25 <atriq> Not you, the other FireFly
20:31:34 <atriq> The one with Nathan Fillion in it
20:31:42 <atriq> Do you have Nathan Fillion in you?
20:33:12 <atriq> My anger has transformed into sads
20:33:22 <itidus21> <atriq> That I'm annoyed that people assume there's only one kind of sign language
20:33:31 <oerjan> i'd swat FireFly but my tab completion is acting up
20:33:33 <atriq> That was mild annoyance, itidus21
20:33:55 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, one of my friends plagiarised Homestuck really awfully
20:34:09 <atriq> In a "-stuck" fan adventure to begin with
20:34:22 <Phantom_Hoover> how would one of your friends be in a position to plagiarise homest-- how can you plagiarise homestuck in one of those
20:34:31 <atriq> But a character's description was lifted phrase by phrase from Dave
20:34:48 <atriq> And he got annoyed that I got annoyed
20:34:49 <oerjan> hm now it's completely correctly
20:34:50 <itidus21> i like the monopoly board. the way it folds neatly to 1/4 it's size. and it was wonderful for the imagination
20:35:03 <atriq> And I didn't want to back down because I thought I was right
20:35:07 <itidus21> i don't think adults could imagine how much fun a child has playing monopoly
20:35:15 <atriq> And he didn't want to back down because everybody else sided with him
20:35:59 <atriq> Then he tried to fix it and he DID SOMETHING WRONG
20:36:04 <atriq> That turned out to be RIGHT ALL ALONG
20:36:21 <atriq> And I've had a bad day and too much caffeine
20:36:26 <Phantom_Hoover> just earlier today i got in a bitter dispute with some guys over whether one set of ships in a freespace mod was justified in looking like another set of ships
20:36:38 * oerjan taunts atriq with an interpretive dance in nicaraguan sign language
20:36:39 <itidus21> atriq: if you knew how i felt about homestuck, you might well swear to destroy me and everything i value
20:36:39 <atriq> And for someone who doesn't drink tea or coffee that equates to any caffeine at all
20:36:47 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't even remember who i've argued with earlier than that, it's all one long blur of anger
20:36:55 <atriq> You're entitled to your opinions, itidus21.
20:37:25 <Phantom_Hoover> did you accidentally see that one flash with jade's dream
20:37:30 <atriq> It shouldn't, but it's okay that it does
20:37:39 <atriq> Except the flash with Jade's Dream
20:37:39 <itidus21> in an eerie unsettling way like what i expect alistair crowley's writing might do
20:37:44 <atriq> And the Squiddles album
20:38:16 <Phantom_Hoover> you think homestuck is an annoying religion for disaffected teenagers?
20:38:51 <Arc_Koen> atriq: I've been thinking, it seems rather logic to me that Fueue programs should end when they try to input but reach EOF
20:39:10 <atriq> Homestuck IS an annoying religion for disaffected teenagers.
20:39:17 <atriq> Arc_Koen, hmm, I disagree
20:40:05 <atriq> Arc_Koen, that means it can't output anything after it's run out of input
20:40:11 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: there are many programs you cannot write if a program halts immediately on EOF. such as tac...
20:40:14 <atriq> Like a "You inputted 107 characters"
20:40:32 <Arc_Koen> input in Fueue is a mean to "save" the program from an infinite no-op loop; if there is no input available, then it means there's nothing left to save the program from this no-op loop
20:40:54 <Arc_Koen> it's either that or you add a special EOF function
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20:41:12 <Arc_Koen> note that this function could be ')' ("deblock"), for instance
20:41:19 <atriq> Or assign a number to represent the EOF "character"
20:41:27 <atriq> And write Fueue programs to handle it
20:42:26 <Arc_Koen> I don't like assigning a number - it means inputting that number is the same as inputting eof
20:42:35 <oerjan> btw i have no idea how to handle Fueue input that is a negative number :)
20:43:06 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: um you use a number not equal to any character, duh
20:43:18 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: well you could place it just after a -
20:43:32 <atriq> Aaah, you mean in the program?
20:43:37 <atriq> Of course, and why not
20:43:46 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: ...then you couldn't handle the positive ones.
20:44:32 <Arc_Koen> well don't we have a nice "compare with 0" function?
20:44:35 <Gregor> atriq: The past tense of “input” is “input” >_> <_<
20:44:47 <Arc_Koen> I'm not sure how $ reacts to negativ numbers, actually
20:44:50 <atriq> I deny that to the utmost degree, Gregor
20:45:03 <atriq> Arc_Koen, implementation dependant, probably an error
20:45:32 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: yes but... if you compare with 0 you destroy all other information about the number
20:45:56 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: double it, then compare the copy with 0
20:46:17 <Arc_Koen> that's how we do it in most stack languages, right?
20:46:25 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: you cannot copy it because : won't wait until the number has been input
20:46:41 <atriq> Fueue is a ridiculous language.
20:46:48 <FreeFull> So what happens when you do : and then want to do something with the number
20:46:52 <atriq> I highly recommend that you do not try to seriously program with it
20:47:07 <Arc_Koen> I don't know, oerjan did prove it was turing-complete
20:47:15 <atriq> Which really surprised me
20:47:46 <oerjan> FreeFull: the problem is only while you are actually inputting a character, once you have managed to get it into a stable form you can use : just fine.
20:48:01 <Arc_Koen> though once again I'm of the opinion we need to include some notions of input and output to the whole turing-completeness thing
20:48:18 <itidus21> cool, so i'm experiencing not understanding youth culture
20:48:20 <fizzie> oerjan: No, and the associativity would be wrong too.
20:48:37 <FreeFull> You only need the ability to provide initial data
20:49:23 <atriq> itidus21, Homestuck is a subculture at best
20:49:48 <Arc_Koen> FreeFull: yes, I'm just saying we should consider the fact that this initial data can be read with what a language specs describe as "input"
20:50:08 <atriq> A Turing-Machine lacks input
20:50:08 <Arc_Koen> I mean, compare those two models:
20:50:12 <atriq> Lambda Calculus lacks input
20:50:19 <atriq> Wang Tiles lack input
20:50:25 <atriq> (Wang Tiles are really odd, though)
20:51:20 <Arc_Koen> atriq: that's my point; when proving a language is equivalent to the set of turing-machines, I find it's not what the language is supposed to be that we're proving tc
20:52:25 <Arc_Koen> you can say a turing-machine does have input, in the form of the initial content of the tape (and the program is the automaton hooked to it)
20:52:41 <FreeFull> atriq: No, the code is the input
20:53:16 <FreeFull> You can designate certain parts as code and certain parts as data if you really want to
20:53:18 <Arc_Koen> but when you're proving that brainfuck's subset <>+-[] is turing-complete, I feel you're not proving *actual* brainfuck, as the *usable* programming language, is turing-complete
20:53:44 <pikhq> Arc_Koen: The more appropriate way of modelling I/O on a Turing machine is to claim it's got three tapes, one of which you can only read and move, and one of which you can only write and move.
20:54:05 <pikhq> Bit of a hack, but that's basically what's going on.
20:54:11 <Arc_Koen> FreeFull: that's my point; if a language specs say that it has an input instruction, then the data shouldn't be considered part of the code, but what's accessible via that input instruction
20:54:24 <pikhq> FreeFull: That's the normal tape.
20:54:45 <pikhq> You've got an in tape, an out tape, and a RAM tape.
20:54:56 <Arc_Koen> pikhq: well, yes, I would very much agree with that representation
20:55:02 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: proving a subset of a language TC proves the entire language TC (as long as it's computable in the first place)
20:55:05 <FreeFull> Arc_Koen: Then you can have data in both places
20:55:19 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: what I'm saying is you've proven something else TC
20:55:42 <Arc_Koen> by not considering the language's input and output facilities, you're "defining" input and output as something else
20:55:45 <pikhq> And, incidentally, you can with some difficulty emulate multiple tapes on a single-tape Turing machine.
20:55:50 <FreeFull> pikhq: How would you do IO with lambda calculus?
20:56:07 <pikhq> Meaning that I/O is basically irrelevant for TC-ness.
20:56:23 <pikhq> FreeFull: Probably the Lazy K way.
20:56:35 <pikhq> Input is an argument, output is the result.
20:56:51 <itidus21> it seems to me that input might involve editing the program
20:57:21 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: for instance, what did you use as "the argument" and "the result" in your proof that 3-cell brainfuck is tc?
20:57:29 <itidus21> ok guys.. just ignore what i said ur on a good topic keep going
20:57:43 <kallisti> coppro: I'm going to a pre-release for Return to Ravnica
20:57:52 <kallisti> you get a bunch of boosters, an intro pack, and a promo card.
20:58:05 <kallisti> (I think the promo card is only legal for that tournament though)
20:58:26 <pikhq> kallisti: The promo is generally legal.
20:58:38 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: the initial and final cell value, mostly. you do have some point - i know how to turn input into the right format but i think it may be impossible to turn a final cell value into an arbitrary output string.
20:59:02 <pikhq> They're merely a slightly weird foil. To be illegal they'd have to have a weird border, weird card back, weird size, or some such.
20:59:13 <pikhq> Or, obviously, be declared explicitly illegal.
20:59:38 <Arc_Koen> so the problem is, when someone says "hey I just proved this new language to be TC", we don't know what he's talking about
20:59:44 <pikhq> Actually, funnily enough, the promo is *not* legal for that tournament.
20:59:47 <kallisti> I'm sad that my 2012 blue/green/black graveyard deck is leaving Standard. :(
20:59:53 <kallisti> I don't know of any local places that play Extended
21:00:31 <kallisti> pikhq: that must vary by location. the place I'm going to said that it will be legal
21:00:31 <pikhq> Because the tournament format for a prerelease is limited, the only legal cards are the ones in the boosters you get.
21:00:39 <Arc_Koen> and then someone else will prove a second language TC, using that first language's TCness... but there's a chance he's not using the same definition of input and output, so I'm not sure the proof stands
21:00:52 <fizzie> oerjan: On the other hand, a^b with an overloaded operator^ is even worse: a + b * c^d == e <=> (a + b * c)^(d == e) !
21:01:04 <pikhq> kallisti: DCI rules say otherwise.
21:01:45 <oerjan> <itidus21> it seems to me that input might involve editing the program <-- precisely! as i did for ///, btw
21:01:46 <Arc_Koen> it's like someone says "Simon likes eggs" because he's seen Simon taking part in an egg-throwing battle
21:01:59 <Arc_Koen> and then someone else says "Simon likes eggs, therefore he likes omelettes"
21:03:54 <kallisti> pikhq: have you looked at the new set? it's pretty interesting
21:04:05 <itidus21> oerjan: ironically LC still puzzles me a great deal.
21:05:08 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: my philosophy of TC-ness is that you include _both_ input and code in the initial setup for your computational model, and are permitted to use both as part of what you convert e.g. a turing machine including input tape into. and similarly for output.
21:05:27 <itidus21> i think i am suspending finding out what LC actually is so i can imagine it is something even better
21:05:47 <oerjan> basically, since distinguishing input and code doesn't make sense for all models e.g. LC, you should never consider them truly distinct
21:06:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm starting to think that the alternate universe Darths and Droids linked to from strip 50 are randomised.
21:06:36 <Arc_Koen> well my philosophy is that the claim "this language is TC" should always be accompanied by a more precise description of what is meant by "this language"
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21:07:35 <itidus21> <itidus21> i find it is tempting to think of anything with the same number of states as being identical. such as thinking heads and tails are exactly the same thing as 0 and 1 and exactly the same thing as black and white, but surely it cannot be so
21:07:54 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: oh hm i guess the point brainfuck is dubious is that you could either consider the final tape contents part of the output (as is done for turing machines) or not (as is done for many other languages)
21:07:54 <itidus21> this probably counts for program and code too
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21:09:14 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i think my 3-cell method suffices only for the former if you want arbitrary results, although the latter works for recognition machines
21:10:04 <coppro> kallisti: yeah, I'm planning to play prereleases oto
21:10:05 <Arc_Koen> well collatz functions are definitely on my list of "things you should look at" and your proof comes right after them
21:10:06 <oerjan> unless someone can find a clever way of converting an unbounded cell value to an output string in 3-cell brainfuck.
21:10:13 <kallisti> coppro: pikhq: I've never played limited before. should be interesting
21:10:29 <kallisti> apparently there's no 4 card limit, and you can have a huge sideboard and you don't have to swap one-to-one
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21:11:15 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> I'm starting to think that the alternate universe Darths and Droids linked to from strip 50 are randomised. <-- um no. there's a long chain of them.
21:11:55 <oerjan> they _have_ sometimes added information to older ones, iirc
21:12:57 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: afair there is one for every 50 D&D + one because they somehow forgot to delay the one they'd been intending when they hurriedly made the avatar one
21:14:06 <oerjan> yep, expect another one in 15 strips :)
21:15:51 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: do you think Fueue would be TC, using its input system as input, if EOF halted execution?
21:18:25 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: sure, just use an LR(0) input format so that the EOF is never read. (e.g. an unlambda 1 interpreter could be made, ignoring final comments.)
21:19:17 <oerjan> LR(0) means a grammar where you don't need to look at the next token to know whether a production has ended.
21:21:23 <Arc_Koen> ("can you hold a conversation with french-speaking people?" "sure, as long as they use an english-encoding of their french sentences")
21:21:31 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: you probably want to be requiring that the input is interpreted precisely as in a normal program language then? in which case the answer is no, you cannot implement tac or wc. and in which case it also has nothing to do with TC-ness.
21:22:07 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: the whole _point_ of TC-ness is that you're allowed to apply an arbitrary (terminating) encoding to the incoming and outgoing information.
21:24:56 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> the second bullet point is golden in this one <-- DMM made a relevant comment on that, let me look it up...
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21:30:12 <oerjan> darn i think it got deleted
21:31:03 <oerjan> it was basically "i see nothing needing editing", anyway
21:31:19 <zzo38> kallisti: I always play limited.
21:55:29 <oerjan> i suspect that it is impossible to determine in 3-cell brainfuck whether an unbounded cell value is even or odd without destroying most of the information in it
21:56:40 <oerjan> you can do arbitrary calculations but you cannot get the information out of that one cell
21:56:58 <oerjan> (counterproofs welcome)
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22:26:37 <Arc_Koen> job for tomorrow: prove that 3-cell reversible brainfuck is not TC
22:28:57 <Arc_Koen> can you think of a way to prove that a language is not TC, other than a) writing a compiler to a known not-TC language (and by language I include automata) and b) solving the halting problem for it
22:29:49 <Arc_Koen> (I'll count "proving that it does not allow for infinite loops" as a subset of solving the halting problem)
22:30:33 <Arc_Koen> (and there was supposed to be an interrogation mark! it's a question!)
22:31:20 <oerjan> showing that there is some problem it cannot solve, i guess
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22:32:03 <oerjan> although how would you do that without having (a) or (b)...
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22:33:27 <Arc_Koen> it's not supposed to be a very interesting, nor formal, question - it's ok if a) or b) can be inferred from the proof, I was just wondering about other "ideas" for proofs
22:33:43 <oerjan> i am not familiar enough with the known theory to remember if there is a well-known example of a non-TC language whose halting problem _isn't_ decidable.
22:35:21 <oerjan> the two non-TC proofs i mentioned in my article page were done essentially by (b), although for subtle cough you might consider it (a) as well.
22:36:09 <Arc_Koen> (and by writing a compiler I include a human description of the translation)
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22:37:00 <oerjan> all the non-TC subsets of underload were essentially about always halting
22:38:17 <zzo38> I added REVER to Truth-machine implementations
22:39:17 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: oh and there's always the matter of not having unbounded memory, although you could consider that as compiling to FSAs...
22:39:54 <oerjan> or linear bounded automata, if it's only that it cannot grow after the beginning
22:40:31 <Arc_Koen> btw the bounded-storage machine category on the wiki is empty!
22:41:09 <oerjan> oh right, it was never properly discussed
22:41:19 <Arc_Koen> it's kind of weird considering I'm sure at least a handful of handfuls of languages on the wiki were inspired by their first implementation
22:41:31 <zzo38> To you think the truth-machine in REVER is OK?
22:41:35 <oerjan> and no one ever acted on my delete request
22:42:28 <Arc_Koen> well, imagine I have an idea for a new language
22:42:41 <Arc_Koen> and I write an interpreter / compiler / whatever for it
22:42:49 <Arc_Koen> and then I write an esolang wiki page
22:43:11 <Arc_Koen> and I basically use my implementation as the specs
22:43:59 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: OK, but what is your idea?
22:44:00 <Arc_Koen> naturally integers are bounded, and if it's, say, tape-based, then the tape is bounded as well (cause I was too lazy to make it an unbounded lazy structure)
22:44:36 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: actually I have a few ideas in mind!
22:44:49 <Arc_Koen> I guess I should write my user page and put them there
22:46:25 <Arc_Koen> a language based on mario kart (or any other race), where instructions affect certain cars, either "at a certain time" or "at a certain location" (and cars are objects with a position, a speed, an acceleration, and probably even the next derivative)
22:47:35 <Arc_Koen> a nondeterministic/probabilistic language based on a monopoly-like game, where a program is a setup of the board + number of players and such, and the players roll dice and are affected by the board
22:49:02 <Arc_Koen> a nondeterministic/probabilistic language similar to Knight Shuffling Tower: there's a main data structure (probably a queue), but its "pop" function pops into a variable... except there are a handful of variables which all have the same name (and one is selected at random every time a variable must be used)
22:49:34 <Arc_Koen> and I think I had a few others as well but they're not coming to mind at the moment :(
22:50:00 <zzo38> If you have idea, write it on List of ideas.
22:50:36 <Arc_Koen> I think the whole esolang thing is growing out of control in my head - every time I take part in a new activity, it goes "hey, this would be a cool idea for an esolang!"...
22:50:51 <Arc_Koen> for instance the other day I played a monopoly-like game with friends
22:51:10 <Arc_Koen> (it turned out to be pretty different from the actual monopoly, though, because there was SO MUCH inflation in it)
22:54:37 <Arc_Koen> in the regular monopoly there isn't really any inflation - you get income every time you reach start, but you invest it in ownership (or whatever it's called). all other operations are 0-sum: money transits from a player to another
22:56:21 <Arc_Koen> in that game your income was a function of your number of houses, and you could buy bonds on houses, and the simple fact of buying more bonds made the value of bonds increase
22:57:50 <Arc_Koen> and investment was mostly free as your score was the sum of your cash, bonds, and houses (so buying a house is basically converting cash into a house, but does not affect your score)
22:59:07 <Arc_Koen> anyway, that was fun :) we were three humans and one computer, and the computer took a good lead at some point, BUT THEN I WON which of course made it all the more fun
23:00:08 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: I've been meaning to read the REVER page ever since you started posting it on the wiki, but I never know where to start - I feel it lacks a "language overview" or something
23:00:46 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: But I don't know what to write in the overview. Anyone who does read it, could add it if they know what to write in the overview.
23:00:50 <Arc_Koen> it basically starts with "it's reversible, you can write comments, and most operations have the same operators as in C
23:03:29 <zzo38> Yes, I know not very good to write overview like that; I only have the first sentence which isn't much.
23:03:35 <Arc_Koen> so for instance I start reading the beginning, then I start scrolling down, then I see something that looks interesting (namely "bijections"), so I search what is a bijection (cause being able to take an inverse is neat but you have to have the other thing first) aaaaaaaand I don't find it
23:03:57 <Arc_Koen> example programs can also help
23:04:34 <zzo38> Yes, I made a section for the examples I didn't put any in yet. But I did write the example for truth-machine on that page.
23:04:39 <Arc_Koen> or some kind of BNFish description (though in languages "that look like C" such a description might look like something horrible)
23:06:38 <Arc_Koen> (also I have some childhood issues with the word "subroutines" so that doesn't help)
23:09:27 <Arc_Koen> btw zzo38 I was trying to remember the name of a language which main operation is to move stuff from input to output and from output to input, and I seem to recall you created that language (though I may be wrong)
23:10:24 <Arc_Koen> then maybe it isn't you - I haven't found it on your wiki user page
23:14:13 <Arc_Koen> (sometimes my mind associate some people with some stuff even though there seem to be no link between the two)
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23:25:31 <oerjan> hm didn't i see that the other day
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23:30:49 <zzo38> I am making Famicom Hangman. If the microphone is available, it will use it as part of the random number generator.
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23:46:47 <kmc> BBC headline: "Nazi Buddha originally from space"
23:46:50 <kmc> article disappoints
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00:35:25 <shachaf> 17:34 <jmcarthur> kmc left #haskell?
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00:55:05 <Jafet1> The reports of kmc's departure are greatly understated.
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01:04:37 <Phantom_Hoover> hey fizzie where's that colour averaging thing you made
01:10:55 <kmc> "Clark County is home to many tax-conscious conservatives, who came to income-tax-free Washington but settled close enough to the border to shop in sales-tax-free Oregon."
01:11:44 <zzo38> O, so do they only have to pay federal taxes then?
01:11:59 <zzo38> Or, do they have to pay property tax too?
01:12:10 <kmc> probably both
01:12:24 <kmc> and other income-related federal taxes like social security and medicare
01:12:29 <kmc> which aren't part of federal income tax proper
01:13:06 <shachaf> Maybe not, but the federal income tax tacks it on.
01:13:22 <kmc> also i don't know the law in WA specifically, but in general if you buy stuff tax-free in another state (or online) and bring it home, you might owe something to the state where you live
01:14:42 <kmc> in NY they make a guess about how much shit you bought online based on your income
01:14:59 <kmc> and charge you that by default
01:15:06 <kmc> but you can / might be required to itemize it under some circumstances
01:16:58 <kmc> this is also why Amazon has no engineering offices in Cambridge MA
01:17:20 <kmc> if they did, then all Amazon purchases from MA would be subject to sales tax, because the company has operations in the state
01:18:15 <kmc> however it sounds like the MA government is going to start requiring them to pay tax regardless
01:18:31 <kmc> so now they will open an engineering office
01:18:44 <kmc> and hire MIT grads to work in the code mines
01:21:39 <kmc> government gotta get paid
01:30:10 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rowan_Williams_-001.jpg
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01:40:43 <kmc> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19746994 love the infographic
01:56:45 <zzo38> Maybe in Famicom Hangman I should have a time limit to push a letter, or a time limit to solve the puzzle, or both
01:59:35 <zzo38> If you have other ideas, then I might put that in too.
02:16:54 <kmc> it should be able to read mail
02:17:51 <zzo38> Read mail? Why? How do you expect it?
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04:01:14 <kmc> shachaf: Do you know how PaX KERNEXEC works on amd64?
04:02:29 <kmc> it's the feature which prevents executing userspace memory while in kernel mode
04:02:38 <kmc> on i386 this is easily accomplished with segmentation
04:02:58 <kmc> on amd64 they instrument each ret and indirect jump/call in the kernel
04:03:12 <kmc> specifically they 'or' the target with 0x8000000000000000
04:03:32 <kmc> if the target was a userspace address, the resulting address is non-canonical and there is a general protection fault
04:04:17 <kmc> this is more efficient than a test + conditional branch, but is still kinda slow
04:04:22 <shachaf> It'll stop working when we all get real 64-bit CPUs!
04:04:29 <kmc> to make matters worse, you need to keep 0x8000000000000000 around in some register
04:04:47 <kmc> it's true!
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04:05:38 <kmc> i wonder if ksplice could use gcc plugins usefully
04:06:01 <kmc> of course it would only work for distros using newish GCC
04:06:25 <kmc> also i wonder if there is a good channel for geeking out about systems and security things
04:06:44 <shachaf> There's ##systems which is pretty quiet.
04:07:45 <kmc> also i am easily annoyed by macho hacker personalities, which are common in security
04:07:58 <shachaf> I think it's mainly pkhuong and sbahra.
04:08:34 <shachaf> kmc: You should start your own channel!
04:08:56 <shachaf> I'd be in it so you could tell me all the "shachaf: Did you know" things.
04:12:42 <ion> Speaking of systems, i made a small stripboard circuit with a MAX232 equivalent and a GPS receiver and i’m running a stratum 1 NTP server now (for no particular reason).
04:17:28 <Sgeo_> What do you think of the parens scoping discussion?
04:17:58 <Sgeo_> Also, are you in there becasue of me.
04:19:58 <shachaf> I think that I'd rather avoid discussions with that particular individual.
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06:42:07 <fizzie> The part of the (AMD) manuals which speaks of canonical addresses specifically says that you shouldn't play tricks with them.
06:42:25 <fizzie> Well, I suppose to be exact it just says not to stuff things in the unused bits, but I suppose that sorta-counts too.
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07:20:19 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
07:20:22 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 40m 2s ago: hi are you
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07:59:52 <atriq> But I really mean ":("
08:08:30 <fizzie> "I say :), and you say :(", isn't that from a Beatles song.
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08:14:04 <atriq> Minecraft froze and took my mouse with it, so I panickd
08:14:19 <atriq> Also, I need help with Ubuntu. Dare I join #ubuntu?
08:17:03 <fizzie> It doesn't sound necessarily productive.
08:17:17 <fizzie> They have 1514 people in there.
08:17:27 <fizzie> (Probably a different number by now.)
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11:05:22 <Sgeo_> You know what VRML feature I just noticed to be rare to nonexistent in other 3D chat things? A feature to make something always appear to be facing the camera
11:06:58 <Sgeo_> "The primary time to ask questions is when the teacher is in human form. At all other times please raise your hand. (this gesture is not yet implemented)
11:07:28 <fizzie> Without the virtual-world context, that would be a very interesting statement to encounter.
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13:08:54 <atriq> I think I prefer Toshiba tech support to Samsung
13:08:59 <fizzie> Did I show this image here? I think I showed this image here. Anyway, sunlight, it's fancy: http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/sunshine.jpg
13:09:03 <fizzie> (Also on the topic: naming files "csb.jpg", "p1.jpg", "test.jpg", "random.jpg" and so on makes it pretty hard to find a particular file later on.)
13:09:09 <atriq> THEY SPELT MY NAME WRONG
13:09:21 <fizzie> (Though it turns out that random.jpg is a picture of a computer with hostname 'random'.)
13:09:50 <Arc_Koen> guys I think I beat you all on the topic
13:10:11 <Arc_Koen> last time my father had to write my name on an official paper, he asked me to show him my id
13:10:27 <atriq> I was once booked into a hotel under the name "Random"
13:11:09 <Phantom_Hoover> everyone says my name wrong until they've been corrected for at least a month
13:11:17 <fizzie> There is (or at least was; maybe he/she changed it) a child in New Zealand named "Number 16 Bus Shelter".
13:11:22 <Phantom_Hoover> this includes people who have only ever heard my name, never seen it spelt
13:11:31 <atriq> That's pronunciation, not spelling.
13:11:35 <atriq> COMPLETELY different.
13:11:53 <fizzie> (We speculated that that's where e was conceived.)
13:12:44 <fizzie> Source: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=10523288 -- includes other great child names, such as "Fish and Chips", "Sex Fruit" (rather descriptive), and the topic of the article, "Talula Does The Hula From Hawaii".
13:13:06 <atriq> Is this the e who writes poems?
13:13:14 <fizzie> "A lawyer for Talula Does The Hula From Hawaii had reported the nine-year-old was so embarrassed about her name that she had not revealed it to her friends and was other wise known as 'K'."
13:14:38 <fizzie> There are probably similar lists from every country; I know I've seen one from Finland. (Even though both countries have rules about not allowing "offensive" names.)
13:24:28 <Arc_Koen> On that occasion the mother had named her daughter O.crnia but was prepared to concede to a condition of a parenting order so it could be adjusted to Oceania.
13:25:04 <Arc_Koen> "the judge who made the girl's name official couldn't interpreted my handwriting wrong"
13:27:54 <atriq> I'm starting to see Black Holes and Revelations/The Resistance/The 2nd Law as a cycle of concept albums
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13:30:16 <atriq> Except Exogenesis Symphony happens either after the 2nd Law or millenia earlier
13:30:56 <atriq> Actually, it goes quite well with "Animals"
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17:13:44 <fizzie> Daily piece of useless information: according to OED, 'triage' is pronounced as /ˈtraɪɪdʒ/, and "in sense 2 [assignment of degrees of urgency to wounds or illnesses] also /trijaʒ/, /ˈtriːɑːʒ/". (I would've gone with the something like the latter options even in general.)
17:16:38 <fizzie> Also, Steam's Portal 2 update log mentions the item "Fixed performance issue with lasers", and I can't figure out whether that's "fixed (performance issue with lasers)" or "fixed (performance issue) with lasers".
17:20:42 <fizzie> I can imagine Valve fixing things with lasers, it sounds appropriate.
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18:05:23 -!- Gregor has set topic: OK people, we need a new featured language. NOW. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki.
18:11:26 <Gregor> Just go back and forth? That's a good idea X-D
18:13:14 -!- atriq has joined.
18:13:39 <zzo38> No, I think you should pick a different one every time.
18:13:46 <zzo38> Unless none are eligible.
18:14:17 <atriq> (I think that was the joke, zzo38)
18:16:55 <zzo38> There is arule not to nominate yourself, but I think it ought to be allowed if none others are eligible.
18:17:15 <atriq> I don't think there's an immediate need for that
18:17:38 <atriq> I'm gonna double-suggest Malbonge, Underload, and Deadfish
18:19:03 <atriq> And it is possible to ask someone really nicely to nominate your language
18:20:45 <Gregor> I like everything about Funciton except for the interpreter being in C#.
18:21:54 <atriq> Re-implement it in ORK
18:24:36 <quintopia> what qualifies a language to be featured?
18:24:44 <atriq> People suggesting it
18:24:50 <Gregor> And it being good enough.
18:24:57 <atriq> And elliott making it featured
18:25:10 <atriq> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Featured_languages/Candidates
18:26:00 <quintopia> i will nominate Aubergine, even though I don't even know if it will pass The Test™
18:26:33 <Gregor> Do not try to understand The Test™. Just know that The Test™ is watching you. Waiting. Testing®.
18:27:53 <Gregor> Do not fear The Test™.
18:27:59 <Gregor> Give yourself to The Test™.
18:28:33 <quintopia> ohhhh, Test™! I do so love you! Take me now! Or let me take you! *swoon*
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18:30:17 <Gregor> Misspelling the name of The Test™ only affects how many Post-Test Morale Beatings™ you will receive.
18:31:57 <atriq> quintopia, feel free to nominate Aubergine.
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19:05:59 <atriq> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19760977
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19:13:22 <Arc_Koen> hmm, Kipple is in the list, but I think its wiki page needs clarifications
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19:20:58 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: your request about 3-cell reversible brainfuck looks complicated :)
19:21:24 <oerjan> i _think_ one can define reversible collatz functions, and do reversible minsky machines with them.
19:22:04 <oerjan> then one needs to do ordinary reversible brainfuck and/or turing machines with the minsky machines
19:22:18 <oerjan> and reversible collatz functions with the 3-cell brainfuck
19:22:50 <oerjan> basically the usual path of reductions needs to be redone reversibly
19:23:15 <oerjan> ordinary=unbounded number of cells, but possibly with bounded values
19:26:45 <oerjan> oh hm http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.159.2776 is prior work from the minsky machine part onwards
19:26:59 <atriq> AnotherTest, why do you say that?
19:27:30 <AnotherTest> atriq: because you're probably the most active user
19:28:14 <atriq> I wondered if I ought to make a page
19:28:24 <atriq> And decided against it?
19:28:25 <oerjan> nothing on the first page at least for collatz functions
19:29:17 <AnotherTest> atriq: okay. I do find you deserve it though
19:31:10 <atriq> I'm not sure what to think
19:33:17 <AnotherTest> and I'm not a member of this community for a very long time
19:33:52 <atriq> I've been hear just over a year
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19:40:53 <atriq> Anyone else's thoughts?
19:45:41 <Arc_Koen> if you had such a page, what would be in it?
19:46:08 <Phantom_Hoover> you would of course have to mention the Hexham Anomaly
19:46:57 <atriq> And my lost programming language
19:47:08 <atriq> (not actually lost, merely kind of embarrassing)
20:00:02 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: ok, new version of my kipple interpreter, going eve further away from the specs - now "i", "o", and "io" all refer to the same stack, which is actually not a stack
20:00:23 <Arc_Koen> and there is a special stack called "i@" which is actually not a stack either, and can be used to input numbers
20:00:48 <fizzie> To boldly go where no Kipple interpreter has gone before.
20:01:16 <Arc_Koen> if you have any other ideas they are very welcome
20:01:54 <Arc_Koen> though at some point I might need to rewrite it all over, rather than adding stuff here and there in the code and hoping it will still work
20:02:18 <Arc_Koen> note than now, (i+0) is a cat program
20:02:56 <AnotherTest> How do you "vote" for a featured language that is already a candidate?
20:03:29 <Arc_Koen> (because it takes a value from the input stack, duplicates it, and push the result to the input stack, which happens to be the output stack, and continue doing so until the input stack is empty, which happens when end of file has been reached)
20:06:33 <AnotherTest> I was thinking of voting for that, but the one problem that I have is that there is no implementation available
20:06:47 * Arc_Koen tries... OK, it turns out it is not a cat program, because the input stack is actually kind of a stack, which means i+0 only "peeks" at the top of the input stack (effectively reading a char from input and pushing it on the stack), and pushes a copy to output... so next iteration the same char will be read again... so it's actually a program that reads one char from input and prints it in an infinite loop
20:07:04 <AnotherTest> I think that the featured language should have an implementation that can be downloaded
20:07:23 <fizzie> I haven't really written any substantial Kipple ever, so I don't have any ideas. I have just a vague feeling that the major impracticality in writing a larger Kipple program is the lack of any sensible way to do subroutines. (Then again, that's not very practical in many other languages either.)
20:07:25 <Arc_Koen> so (i>o) or (o>i) or (io>io) or (i<o) or whatever is still the simplest cat program
20:08:28 <Arc_Koen> Phantom_Hoover: I'm pretty sure the featured language candidate list page contain a recommendation that the wiki page contain a link to an implementation
20:08:45 <AnotherTest> Phantom_Hoover: yes, but if someone [new] visits the wiki, they will perhaps see the featured language, click on it and then want to try it out
20:08:54 <AnotherTest> if there is no implementation however, that is not possible
20:09:06 <AnotherTest> also, I think the implementation often learns one a lot about the concept
20:09:35 <AnotherTest> Phantom_Hoover: well make use of it in any way
20:09:47 <Arc_Koen> a visual implementation of befunge (as in, a very very very very very very very very very very slow interpreter that actually shows the stack and the instruction pointer) is the best way to show the power of befunge to a newcomer!
20:09:55 <Phantom_Hoover> it's so completely different from the norm, you can't just say "oh well it's <language> but cut way down"
20:10:42 <AnotherTest> Yes, but that doesn't render an implementation unneeded, right?
20:11:27 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: how about a special execute stack that would execute chars pushed onto it as if they were kipple instructions
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20:14:14 <Arc_Koen> well, it would be more handy to have an execute command that would execute a stack as a kipple program, but I like the idea to have special stacks only, and no more commands
20:15:09 <quintopia> i had such a visual interpreter for spiral once
20:15:24 <quintopia> until those people at the computer repair place erased it
20:15:45 <Arc_Koen> so maybe it acts as a regular stack, until a special "trigger" character is pushed onto it, at which point it executes itself
20:16:22 <Arc_Koen> so you can push your subroutines to stacks, and when you want to execute a subroutine, you push a copy a the right stack to the execute stack, then push the trigger character to the execute stack
20:17:45 <Arc_Koen> but then you could say that if it requires a special character, you could have *any* stack be executable, when the trigger character is pushed on them
20:18:06 <zzo38> I think none of those are the best idea.
20:18:36 <Arc_Koen> but then to be able to use the trigger character on a stack, you'd have to escape it somehow
20:18:36 <zzo38> Perhaps, make one command which trigger the stack, what it does depend on which stack is selected (if it is not a special stack, it does nothing).
20:19:11 <Arc_Koen> though currently the input/output stack is already interactive, so they can't really be triggered
20:20:10 <Arc_Koen> (so that would mean using separate stacks for input and output again)
20:22:06 <zzo38> You could change it so that, it is input if you read the empty I/O stack, but otherwise you just read back the output, once triggered then its contents are send to output and it then becomes empty. Would this work?
20:24:36 <Arc_Koen> well my first version had separate input and output stacks
20:25:15 <Arc_Koen> the output stack was a regular stack, except with the side effect that when something had to be pushed onto it, it was printed out (but still pushed on the stack)
20:26:13 <Arc_Koen> and the input stack was also a regular stack, except that if it was empty and something tried to pop it it would return a char read from stdin instead of 0 (other stacks return 0 when empty)
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20:27:06 <Arc_Koen> in the new version I merged those two stacks, so trying to pop io would read a char from input, and trying to push x io would print x out (but not push it on any stack)
20:28:40 <Arc_Koen> so you're suggesting that it become a regular stack, except that if it's popped when empty it returns a char from stdin instead of 0, and if it's triggered its content is outputted and it is then cleared?
20:29:15 <Arc_Koen> I do have some problems though - it is sometimes possible to "peek" instead of pop
20:29:49 <atriq> A peek is just a dup followed by a pop on a stack
20:30:12 <Arc_Koen> yes but it's troublesome when the in and out stacks are merged
20:30:36 <Arc_Koen> it's like an anti-lazy evaluation
20:30:48 <Arc_Koen> for instance imagine the kipple program (i blabla)
20:31:04 <Arc_Koen> it's a loop that says "execute content of the loop until i is empty"
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20:31:58 <Arc_Koen> to know whether input is empty when using interactive io, my current solution is to read on char from io : if it's end of file then the stack is considered empty; else it is considered not empty, but that char must be kept for the next time someone tries to read i
20:32:59 <Arc_Koen> (otherwise the program "(i>o)", which is supposed to be a cat, would print only every other character)
20:33:12 <oerjan> pretty much how i feel too much of the time http://www.mezzacotta.net/owls/?comic=489
20:34:18 <oerjan> DON'T FINISH THAT SENTENCE OR I'LL KILL YOU
20:34:34 <Arc_Koen> ha you don't know where I live
20:34:41 <Arc_Koen> (come to think of that, you probably do)
20:34:56 <atriq> Somethings telling me Belgium
20:35:06 <oerjan> somewhere on earth, close enough. you _did_ read the comic, i assume.
20:35:33 * oerjan slips off to steal the dea^Wpeace moon from darths & droids
20:36:02 <Arc_Koen> no that was a complete coincidence (sponsored by the Heart of Gold spaceship)
20:40:16 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: oh and I forgot to say, I added a super-useful-essential-and-revolutionary stack which is called "dump" and is always empty (everything that is pushed to it is destroyed instead)
20:41:07 <Arc_Koen> I guess it should be called "0" instead, seeing as popping it always gives a 0 but that would require too much modifications on the code for such a useless stack
20:41:51 <fizzie> It could be called "zero". Or "null".
20:42:11 <fizzie> It does sound a bit like /dev/zero.
20:42:54 <oerjan> `run echo hi >/dev/zero; echo success
20:43:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: whois: not found
20:43:42 <atriq> It's not in the topic I have no idea
20:43:49 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask.
20:43:55 <atriq> Okay, that narrows it down
20:44:01 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things?
20:44:21 <atriq> That doesn't help at all
20:44:58 <fizzie> "Data written to a null or zero special file is discarded. Reads from the null special file always return end of file (i.e., read(2) returns 0), whereas reads from zero always return bytes containing zero (\0 characters)." I suppose it's arguable which it resembles more.
20:45:00 <oerjan> `? misspellings of croissant
20:45:03 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:45:39 <itidus21> `? reasons to not buy chocolate filled crossaints
20:45:42 <HackEgo> reasons to not buy chocolate filled crossaints? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:46:10 <oerjan> clear proof that none exist
20:46:19 <FreeFull> It looks like a trident with a bit sticking out
20:46:22 <itidus21> im now not sure which is the correct spelling
20:46:47 <HackEgo> itidus21 just made some instant coffee.
20:46:54 <HackEgo> itidus20's entry has been censored.
20:47:10 <atriq> Are you ever itidus19?
20:47:19 <Arc_Koen> FreeFull: what a fantasist interpretation. It's clearly an ear with a bit sticking out
20:47:49 <FreeFull> Arc_Koen: What sort of ear looks like that?
20:47:50 <itidus21> in theory i can be itidus22... but i think i didnt actually register it
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20:47:53 <oerjan> `learn itidus19 disappeared into a space-time anomaly
20:49:10 <itidus21> its a carry-over from chat networks where beginning or ending an id in _ is illegal
20:49:35 <itidus21> why that is has never been explained to me
20:50:09 -!- FreeFull has changed nick to _FreeFull.
20:50:17 -!- _FreeFull has changed nick to FreeFull.
20:50:29 <itidus21> as a result, people valued such ids immensely and apparently some have indeed been traded for cash
20:52:04 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian.
20:52:14 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
20:52:45 <itidus21> random example found in google http://ilegal-id.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/long-undy.html
20:53:00 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
20:53:27 <atriq> `learn Homestuck is a cult religion for disaffected teens.
20:53:34 <itidus21> atriq: sometimes reality is more ridiculous than fiction
20:53:37 <HackEgo> Homestuck is a cult religion for disaffected teens.
20:54:00 <atriq> `learn Homestuck is a cult religion for disaffected teens. Gamzee drives the bus.
20:54:23 <atriq> Too close together, perhaps
20:55:01 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
20:55:13 <HackEgo> Hexham is a European town. There are nine people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Taneb looks after the ham.
20:55:27 <atriq> More information about this mysterious "Taneb"
20:55:40 <olsner> atriq: iirc, you are Taneb
20:55:48 <atriq> olsner, who knows?
20:55:58 <atriq> (me, and evidently you)
20:56:00 <itidus21> olsner: that doesn't really help
20:56:01 <oerjan> THIS INFORMATION IS CLASSIFIED
20:56:06 <olsner> atriq: I certainly don't
20:56:14 <atriq> All I know, is soon I must sleep
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20:57:13 <oerjan> In his house at Hexham, atriq waits dreaming.
20:57:19 <itidus21> actually i guess it helps a lot
20:58:01 <itidus21> what could be strange though is reading about someone and not realizing it is you
21:00:22 <olsner> I sometimes have the opposite problem with people with similar names to mine
21:00:49 <fizzie> oerjan: Isn't it "dead atriq waits dreaming"?
21:00:56 <olsner> "Did I write this? I have no memory of that!"
21:02:18 <itidus21> sighs.. and prepares to say something weird
21:03:01 <itidus21> if.. some species, presumably humans, had an organ which was a tictactoe board
21:03:19 <itidus21> due to humans all being different, it would have to differ somehow between individuals
21:03:44 <itidus21> or not so much a tictactoe board but an embodiment of the game of tictactoe
21:04:05 <olsner> some kind of evolution of the toe?
21:04:48 <olsner> maybe tic-tac toes would have mint glands
21:05:57 <itidus21> i guess that its like how almost everyone has 8 fingers, and almost everyone has dna
21:06:45 <itidus21> so .. theres nothing profound to be found in this
21:06:59 <olsner> 8 fingers? I counted 10 at last count
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21:09:20 <itidus21> using analysis.. i think it is impossible to take any physical sample of 2 humans and find them to be identical
21:10:53 <Arc_Koen> are youa llowed to take them from the same human?
21:12:04 <itidus21> this may well generalize to all matter
21:12:53 <Arc_Koen> well, if there are two distincts samples, then Ocaml's == operator would always return false
21:13:12 <Arc_Koen> anyway, I'll follow atriq's neat example
21:15:51 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: about you comment on *brainfuck, I did not mean to say I put it in the brainfuck-equivalent category because it was TC; I meant that 1) it was trivial to translate a brainfuck program into *brainfuck, and 2) the other way around was probably irrelevant seeing as how *brainfuck's additions were not really useful at all
21:16:50 <oerjan> also allowing pointers probably gives it a more than linear speedup to brainfuck in some cases.
21:16:57 <Arc_Koen> well then it probably doesn't belong to that category
21:17:06 <oerjan> similar to having extra tapes in a turing machine
21:18:46 <itidus21> Arc_Koen: i really like your idea about a null stack
21:19:08 <Arc_Koen> itidus: I almost not implemented it because I thought it was not useful at all
21:19:15 <oerjan> <fizzie> oerjan: Isn't it "dead atriq waits dreaming"? <-- i considered it, but the dead atriq is a racehorse.
21:19:38 <Arc_Koen> I mean, you could use any stack as a null stack and just "pretend" it's empty
21:20:06 <itidus21> i suspect theres more to this idea
21:20:19 <Arc_Koen> (though if you actually want to free memory because you're inside a very long (or infinite) loop and don't want leaks...)
21:20:44 <itidus21> but i just cant get my head around it
21:21:35 <Arc_Koen> well I'm gonna read some pages of my book and go to sleep - if you have any idea you want to share, feel free to @tell me or to leave a message on User_talk:Koen
21:21:43 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: In that case you could manually dump it every now and then; 0>z? is pretty elegant-looking.
21:22:14 <Arc_Koen> for some reasons I always forget about the ? command
21:22:46 <Arc_Koen> like, every ten minutes I tell myself "hmm, kipple seriously like a way to destroy information..."
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21:44:46 <zzo38> If you can peek instead of pop, what you can have is, if you peek an empty I/O stack, you get input which is then pushed onto the stack, so if you peek and then trigger then it copies input to output.
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21:59:20 <zzo38> Once I have the dream where I recognized something as myself even though it is not; it is myself in real life but different from the myself in the dream. Actually, involving some memories from one myself remembered by the other myself even though they are actually two distinct people.
21:59:40 <zzo38> And I could tell it is different, too; just that I knew some of their memories.
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22:22:12 <kmc> shachaf: I have been advised to play http://haxathon.com/
22:24:27 <itidus21> if you have some special value 5 whereby, a * 5 = 5, a + 5 = 5, a - 5 = 5, a / 5 = 5, for all values of a, and you had another similar special value 4, then it would seem 4 * 5 = 4 ? 5
22:25:40 <itidus21> or maybe what i am doing is really just writing fallacies
22:26:16 <oerjan> itidus21: well that's more or less how you prove a group has just one identity, a ring just one zero, and similar things
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22:31:50 <kmc> i haven't started yet
22:31:58 <kmc> i have a blog post i should finish up before i fall down any more rabbit holes
22:38:30 <lambdabot> Squarism says: wo utilizing any tricks, i want 20 miljon rabbits to mate with each other once.. how many mate event will there be
22:38:54 <lambdabot> Squarism says: wo utilizing any tricks, i want 20 miljon rabbits to mate with each other once.. how many mate event will there be
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22:41:48 <kmc> today the zero width non-breaking space character came in handy
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23:28:51 <ion> kmc: Interesting.
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01:15:53 <shachaf> kmc: In a situation where the client can get incoming packets but not receive outgoing packets, would mosh continue to work?
01:16:01 <shachaf> For reading text, that is.
01:34:03 <lambdabot> ddarius says: Now I can just point people at a readable and relevant paper instead of having to Cale it.
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01:49:45 <itidus21> https://www.digipen.edu/?id=1170&proj=1470
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02:09:04 <itidus21> and all this time I thought we were talking about postmodern analysis of junk mail delivery methods and simulations of elephant breeding patterns
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03:32:49 <ion> ntpq -np with the GPS clock http://heh.fi/tmp/ntp-peers
03:37:52 <pikhq> Spiffy. I should totally set myself up with a GPS clock sometime.
03:38:09 <pikhq> I must be a weirdo: I actually care about having accurate time.
03:38:40 <ion> Also, everyone with an NTP server, please join the NTP pool. :-) http://www.pool.ntp.org/
03:39:15 <pikhq> Sadly, my system is not publicly accessible.
03:39:25 <pikhq> Aaaand not much of an NTP server.
03:39:37 <pikhq> Though it is currently a stratum... 3? time source.
03:39:58 <ion> That should be fine for the pool.
03:42:15 <pikhq> Yup, definitely a stratum 3 source.
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03:44:57 <pikhq> It amuses me that I own a time keeping device that would've been the envy of universities a few decades ago.
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07:08:13 <fizzie> I've been thinking maybe I should hook my old Garmin to this box for timekeeping, because it hasn't really gotten any use lately, what with there being GPS in the phone too.
07:09:07 <ion> Go for it (as long as it has a PPS output).
07:13:46 <fizzie> It hasn't generally been very indoor-use-capable, though. But I suppose I could always try it out.
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07:15:31 <ion> Surprisingly, my reception is fine 4–5 meters from the nearest window on the ground floor of a multiple-floor brick building.
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13:39:18 <Sgeo__> "WinRAR includes around a dozen standard filters that improve compression of several common inputs, but surprisingly also allows new filters to be defined at runtime by archives!"
13:44:30 <Sgeo__> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/10nh6s/fun_with_constrained_programming_the_winrar_vm/
13:44:42 <Sgeo__> Oh, and the LoseThos guy is in that thread
13:45:15 <FreeFull> It's not as if it's the only compression format that uses a VM
13:45:29 * Sgeo__ doesn't know much about compression formats
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15:56:51 <Sgeo__> Argh when will the new Doctor Who be available
15:57:12 <Sgeo__> Also: Person decides that argument from authority is a good idea
15:57:21 <olsner> it airs on sundays, doesn't it?
15:57:31 <Sgeo__> "but dont be picking apart that website, that guy has been doing computers and writing software for longer then youve been alive, no offense"
15:58:28 <FreeFull> Will be on iplayer once it ends on TV
15:58:49 <FreeFull> The episode is 45 minutes so it'll be around 20:05 BST
15:58:56 <olsner> is that the bbc thing that only works from britain?
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16:03:25 <Phantom_Hoover> who cares, if you're not in britain you don't deserve to get to watch the bbc
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17:51:30 <Sgeo__> I think I should learn to be more assertive.
17:52:00 <Sgeo__> Although I think saying "And, do you own this chat? If not, why should I be silent?" counts as assertive
17:53:14 <Sgeo__> Although I said "No offense." afterwards
18:04:34 <Sgeo__> atriq, I feel like I'm pandering to someone who believes that, because her good friend made something, that thing is the be-all and end-all.
18:05:08 <Sgeo__> And that no one else in the large Facebook group should look at anything else, and I shouldn't talk about alternatives in the group
18:05:32 <atriq> I had a dream that I was Facebook friends with kmc
18:06:03 <Sgeo__> " if that is not good enough for you to us then please do your own thing and stop posting about it in this chat"
18:06:57 <atriq> He was called Kenneth or Keagan (I can't quite remember) McConaugh (give or take spelling)
18:08:36 <itidus21> Sgeo__: so my gp got me to see psychologist who works in the same building. so the guy asks me whats the biggest thing you would like to change or fix or whatever (i forget exact words), and i said something similar to "<Sgeo__> I think I should learn to be more assertive."
18:09:13 <itidus21> whats my point? i understand where you're coming from
18:10:13 <itidus21> but, i am starting to think assertiveness is largely a self help fantasy
18:10:57 <itidus21> well after we talked for a while he recognized that i had anxiety problems
18:12:04 <itidus21> so what he wanted to do was teach me to make informed choices or something like that
18:13:33 <Sgeo__> I think she takes personal offense to even the slightest criticism of this thing
18:20:56 <itidus21> i am an extremely unassertive person. but i think the phrase is not as helpful as it purports to be
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18:32:45 <itidus21> http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/1f9/163/8ab/resized/socially-awkward-penguin-meme-generator-talk-to-girl-on-facebook-chat-they-start-typing-proceed-to-delete-everything-you-started-typing-until-they-send-3aee3a.jpg
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18:43:55 <Arc_Koen> (well I didn't click your link but the description seems pretty straightforward
18:44:14 <Sgeo__> Sometimes I'll Cut what I was going to say
18:44:21 <Sgeo__> To paste it back in after I reply
18:44:59 <Arc_Koen> but facebook had this warning when the other person was typing
18:54:35 <Sgeo__> How does New York law define "resident"?
18:57:47 <Sgeo__> As in, resident of a county
19:01:13 <fizzie> As far as voting is concerned, at least, you "have the right to choose either one [of your multiple 'homes'] as their residence for voting purposes, as long as they have legitimate, significant and continuing attachments to the one they choose".
19:01:37 <fizzie> (I came across this bit in a blog just the other day.)
19:01:56 <fizzie> (For other purposes, I suppose the standard might well be different.)
19:03:53 <Sgeo__> I'm concerned about voting
19:04:17 * Sgeo__ isn't sure about "continuing" at this point
19:04:28 <fizzie> Also I write things I'm sometimes reasonably sure I'm not even going to say, and then down-arrow to leave those in the input buffer, unsaid.
19:04:38 <Sgeo__> Wait, what if the home is technically uninhabitable at this point in time?
19:04:49 <Arc_Koen> "I haven't set foot in my parents' house for decades, but I feel attached to it"
19:05:25 <Arc_Koen> I guess as long as a judge doesn't accuse you of treachery you're fine
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19:40:19 <oerjan> `addquote <itidus21> and all this time I thought we were talking about postmodern analysis of junk mail delivery methods and simulations of elephant breeding patterns
19:40:30 <HackEgo> 863) <itidus21> and all this time I thought we were talking about postmodern analysis of junk mail delivery methods and simulations of elephant breeding patterns
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19:45:46 <oerjan> Vi har ingen elediller eller krokofanter, men vi har en grevling i taket!
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19:52:27 <atriq> Phantom__Hoover, going back to the other day, is your name pronounced "Pheentome"?
19:53:15 <Phantom__Hoover> my first thought was "aaaaaagh my eyes i should've brought shades"
19:53:25 <atriq> A weird place indeed
19:53:32 <atriq> What are you doing in Coventry?
19:53:51 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: oh that must have been the daystar!
19:53:59 <atriq> Get pointy anime one
19:54:24 <Phantom__Hoover> no because someone might read either homestuck or the thing homestuck got that off and then they would be insufferabl
19:55:20 <Phantom__Hoover> sometimes i see it lurking near the horizon when there's a parting in the clouds, its wan light a chilling warning
19:58:53 <atriq> If you get confronted just say you got them because you thought they looked call
19:59:06 <atriq> And then they say they want you to watch TTGL
19:59:11 <atriq> To which you say "piss offQ"
19:59:20 <atriq> And totally not a typo
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20:02:08 <Sgeo__> Is it wrong to feel sad that someone who is a bit too easily offended on others' behalves defriended me?
20:03:21 <Arc_Koen> though that probably depends on what you mean by "defriended"
20:03:26 <atriq> Maybe! I don't know!
20:03:33 <atriq> Stop asking me these questions!
20:05:19 <oerjan> atriq: how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
20:05:47 <atriq> A woodchuck wouldn't chuck any wood because a woodchuck wouldn't chuck wood!
20:05:51 <Arc_Koen> I had a good friend with whom I went hiking on many occasions... last time we started together... and at some point we split and got home separately. that was more than three months ago and he won't talk to me... HE EVEN REFUSED TO DRINK A BEER I OFFERED which is probably the silliest thing ever to refuse!!
20:06:17 <atriq> And he's hanging out with all his teetotal friends
20:06:55 <Arc_Koen> so I was thinking maybe I should wait till christmas and buy him a present or something
20:07:08 <atriq> You could just buy him a present
20:07:23 <atriq> And when he asks why
20:07:28 <atriq> Say it's because you miss him
20:07:52 <Arc_Koen> weird thing is, I still see him every now and then at the local game of go club - he's someone who jokes a lot, and last time he made a lot of joke about the game I was in the middle of, so we laughed together, yet he still won't talk to me
20:09:14 <Arc_Koen> (btw, thank you so much to OberoN, I kept trying to find what stack-based language I was thinking about all the time, and it turns out to be Ozone.)
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20:26:59 <FireFly> oerjan: a woodchuck would chuck as much wood as a woodchuck could if a woodchuck would chuck wood, I guess
20:27:33 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
20:27:46 <atriq> Is it wrong to feel absolutely terrified because someone fancies you?
20:28:41 <itidus21> atriq: its actually surprisingly right
20:29:16 <itidus21> its one of those feelings normal people have
20:29:25 <atriq> Oh, that's relieving
20:29:28 <atriq> How do I make it stop
20:29:49 <itidus21> actually what the hell am i saying.. is the terror due to a lack of reciprocal feelings?
20:30:04 <atriq> And no clue how to proceed
20:30:40 <oerjan> it's ok just find a good place to hide the body
20:32:45 <itidus21> atriq: i think that... my brain wants to think about legend of zelda.. but...
20:32:58 <itidus21> it's likely that she will get over you
20:33:11 <itidus21> she won't be as hurt by not having you as you anticipate
20:33:44 <itidus21> ahh so i say.. but in another chatroom i am in is a guy terrified by a female stalker
20:34:12 <atriq> Is he my future self?
20:35:29 <itidus21> this guy talking to some random female who joined chatroom and says "Well, as long as this isn't karissa in disguise."
20:36:11 <itidus21> but its not so much paranoia because she does indeed go there looking for him
20:38:55 <itidus21> no woman has ever truely fancied me. i don't know what it's like
20:40:47 <atriq> Imagine a female, English Gregor who is really creepy
20:40:58 <atriq> And a few years younger
20:43:00 <oerjan> ...does this include the fashion sense?
20:43:12 <atriq> Only to the extent of hats
20:43:41 <atriq> I have not seen her wearing objects similar to the PANTS OF NARCISSUS
20:44:44 <itidus21> i'd say your best option is to just do nothing... and curse your brain for doing this to you
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20:48:07 <atriq> Phantom__Hoover, advise!
20:48:37 <atriq> Without reading the logs!
20:49:00 <atriq> Blindly and naively!
20:49:17 <atriq> "Only the most ignorant may be truly wise."
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20:50:42 <atriq> This reminds me of a quote
20:50:42 <zzo38> Do you think this is good ideas? http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php?title=User:Zzo38/DotFami&curid=818&diff=4701&oldid=4608
20:50:49 <atriq> `quote fall in love
20:50:53 <HackEgo> 604) <Ngevd> Dammit, Gregor, this is not the time to fall in love \ 625) <HackEgo> 678) <Ngevd> Dammit, Gregor, this is not the time to fall in love <HackEgo> 187) <alise> Gregor: You should never have got her pregnant. <Gregor> what whaaaaaaaaaaaat
20:51:53 <atriq> Something tells me that may not work
20:52:39 <Phantom__Hoover> did i get her pregnant? did i not? who am i anyway? the pronouns of this situation are so ambiguous!
20:53:10 <Phantom__Hoover> she flies to purdue, gets eaten by its giant mutant poultry, everyone else lives happily ever after
20:54:33 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: is that the "chicken out" solution?
20:54:52 <itidus21> in seinfeld, george tried various attempts to escape susan
20:56:14 <oerjan> itidus21: http://lesswrong.com/lw/k9/the_logical_fallacy_of_generalization_from/
20:56:21 <atriq> I think we're all missing the point
20:56:32 <atriq> I have a remote control helicopter
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21:02:58 <itidus21> atriq: its almost impossible to end up in a relationship with a woman without actually wanting it. so your actual fears are irrational
21:04:10 <Arc_Koen> what about if your parents forced you to marry her
21:04:36 <Arc_Koen> I'm not familiar with that kind of situation but I'm assuming you would have to get in some sort of relationship with her
21:05:30 <Arc_Koen> or what if she's blackmailing you
21:06:06 <Arc_Koen> OR WHAT IF YOU CAN'T ESCAPE BECAUSE THE FLOOR IS LAVA
21:06:44 <itidus21> hmmmmm.... ok ok .. logically it is possible to be forced into a relationship with a woman without wanting it
21:07:18 <Arc_Koen> that's not even unlikely - she could be your colleague
21:07:48 <Arc_Koen> well I don't know how close you need to be to be called "in a relationship", but if you have to spend 8 hours a day working with her...
21:08:30 <Arc_Koen> Phantom__Hoover: problem is, she's probably not aware the floor is lava, so it'd be very hard for you to escape but very easy for her to follow you
21:09:31 <Arc_Koen> and I ask you, WHO would want to be in a relationship with a girl who refuses to acknowledge that the floor is lava??
21:10:49 <oerjan> hey it'll be a short relationship, anyway
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21:12:57 <HackEgo> Toni_Funchal: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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21:15:22 <shachaf> kmc: http://blog.cmpxchg8b.com/2012/09/fun-with-constrained-programming.html
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21:20:44 <Arc_Koen> isn't there something called "constraint programming"? "constrained programming" sounds more like an oulipo thing
21:21:04 <Arc_Koen> (like making palindrome programs)
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21:21:54 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: Toni_Fuchal could have soon become an esolang enthusiast and prove eodermdrome tc within two monthes
21:22:15 <Arc_Koen> but no you had to be 0.1 second too late on the `welcome command!
21:22:19 <oerjan> i already proved eodermdrome tc, thank you very much
21:22:39 <Arc_Koen> well then who needs Toni_Fuchal
21:23:16 <oerjan> now we just need someone to implement it so the proof can be tested
21:23:33 <Arc_Koen> (btw, I knew that! I just momentarily forgot it!)
21:24:32 <oerjan> i was going to write something but the housemate started coughing
21:24:46 <Arc_Koen> I swear, that "A version including ascii drawing of relevant subgraphs" sentence sounds very very familiar
21:25:44 <oerjan> Arc_Koen, now accusing me of plagiarism!
21:26:15 <Arc_Koen> am not! please believe what Phantom__Hoover says
21:27:29 <oerjan> i'm sorry, but i cannot trust a known hatheist
21:27:42 <kmc> shachaf: nice
21:28:28 <nortti> oerjan: what is hatheist?
21:29:42 <nortti> oerjan: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Hatheist lists two kinds of hatheists
21:30:33 <oerjan> nortti: this refers to neither, although it may be a subset of both
21:31:42 <Phantom__Hoover> the scene: it is a warm summer's day in scotland, although one obscured by cloud and the fact that it is september
21:32:05 <Phantom__Hoover> the pope is on a tour of the uk, and is passing through edinburgh for some reason
21:32:42 <Phantom__Hoover> a moment of gregorian fancy siezes me and i can think only of his hat, and how i long to have it for my own
21:33:42 <Phantom__Hoover> had it gone according to plan i would have at least two pope hats in my possession, along with finally getting excommunicated from the church
21:33:54 <oerjan> `addquote <hantom__Hoover> the scene: it is a warm summer's day in scotland, although one obscured by cloud and the fact that it is september
21:33:57 <HackEgo> 864) <hantom__Hoover> the scene: it is a warm summer's day in scotland, although one obscured by cloud and the fact that it is september
21:34:15 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom__Hoover> the scene: it is a warm summer's day in scotland, although one obscured by cloud and the fact that it is september
21:34:18 <HackEgo> 864) <Phantom__Hoover> the scene: it is a warm summer's day in scotland, although one obscured by cloud and the fact that it is september
21:37:31 <atriq> I was going to say I can't be excommunicated but then I remembered I can be excommunicated
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21:43:27 <oerjan> with latae sententiae, you already may be!
21:45:04 <oerjan> "a person who uses physical force against the Pope;"
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21:52:17 <itidus21> atriq: are you the object of gregorian fancy?
21:52:44 <atriq> I'm the object of the alternate universe gregorian fancy
22:05:23 <nortti> someone at #jollamobile got a great idea. build a bomb shelter out of nokia 3310s
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22:12:00 <fizzie> I had a 3110 a long time, and was therefore envious of friends with 5110s or 6110s: they had Snake (or whatever it was called), and infrared.
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22:29:07 <Phantom__Hoover> my dad always called it a noikia no matter how many times i corrected him
22:29:41 <nortti> I should build a phone and label it NOIKIA
22:30:31 <Phantom__Hoover> they upgraded to something new but i don't seem to be able to find it
22:30:34 <atriq> Sounds like protesting against affordable furniture
22:30:40 <atriq> Except that would be NOIKEA
22:31:36 <Phantom__Hoover> actually come to think of it they mustn't've had 3110s because i distinctly remember playing snake on those and being like "omg this is the next generation" when i played snake on their new phones
22:31:46 * Arc_Koen adds "build my own phone" to the list of things to do at some point in his life
22:32:25 <nortti> Arc_Koen: how long is that list?
22:33:01 <Arc_Koen> I think it is very long, but I have never put it on paper and I can never remember more than three items at a time so one could say it is never longer than three items
22:33:18 <Arc_Koen> however I do recall that it involves a lot of building stuff
22:33:23 <quintopia> i remember playing snake on my dad's black and white motorola "flip" phone way back when
22:33:45 * itidus21 adds "dispose of to-do list before everything on it has been done" to his to-do list
22:33:48 <Phantom__Hoover> i remember my first and current until yesterday phone being one of those
22:34:10 <Arc_Koen> itidus21: but then if you do complete it a paradox will happen!!
22:34:23 <quintopia> because it didn't fold in half the microphone flipped down in a thin plastic thing that came only halfway up it, and the rest was in the main body of the phone
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22:36:44 <zzo38> One thing I wanted to do some day is make up a Famicom hardware clone with 60-pins, Famicom expansion port, NES controller ports, with an extra pin on second port (detached from the others so that you can connect devices that don't have it) used for microphone, and internal ROM which is activated when no cartridge is inserted.
22:38:09 <zzo38> And then it come with: player 1 controller, player 2 controller (including microphone and SELECT and START button), keyboard, 72-to-60 adapter, manual for programming it, and a cartridge to program with your own software to test it.
22:39:17 <Phantom__Hoover> one day i will (not) build a mechanical game of life cell and waste away staring at its beauty
22:39:42 <quintopia> zzo38: so you can play famicom with new controllers?
22:40:15 <zzo38> I would buy that too. So, if I ever make that, I wil tell you, so that you can buy it too.
22:40:39 <nortti> Phantom__Hoover: how is mechanical game of life created?
22:41:22 <zzo38> quintopia: One reason for having this is so that you can replace the controllers; the protocol is the same except the microphone (which is why I want to add an extra pin to the second port).
22:41:46 <nortti> electromechanical would be pretty easy but completely mechanical seems pretty hard
22:42:44 <zzo38> The microphone is read on the first port even though it is on the second controller, the extra pin on the second port is actually connected internally to the first register.
22:52:32 <coppro> this proof involves sets of sets of sets
22:56:08 <atriq> Can a set contain itself?
23:02:06 <coppro> I am proving that every infinite subset has two disjoint subsets that are equinumerous to the original set
23:02:10 <quintopia> but the null set is the flattening of the set containing the null set
23:03:06 <quintopia> could we not define a set that contains only one set which is itself?
23:05:18 <quintopia> "Zermelo-Frankel set theory does not allow such sets due to the Axiom of Foundation/Regularity. There are non well-founded set theories, which typically replace the Axiom of Foundation with some statement that implies the negation of foundation. The Anti-Foundation Axiom comes to mind.
23:05:28 <quintopia> Perhaps the simplest example of a non well-founded set is [the thing i just described]"
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23:30:00 <oerjan> @tell atriq <atriq> Can a set contain itself? <-- NO FAIR ASKING SUCH QUESTIONS JUST BEFOR QUITTING. Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_of_regularity
23:32:22 <oerjan> <coppro> I am proving that every infinite subset has two disjoint subsets that are equinumerous to the original set <-- how does that involve sets of sets of sets?
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23:45:37 <oerjan> eek, the evil car is back
23:45:40 <tswett> In ZFC, no set contains itself. You can create a "definition" of such a set, but your "definition" won't actually define anything.
23:46:43 <oerjan> @tell atriq Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-well-founded_set_theory
23:53:13 <augur> lambdabot: > let k = 15 ; mns :: [[Int]] ; mns = [ [ abs (complement (m .&. n)) | m <- [0..k] ] | n <- [0..k] ] in intercalate "\n" $ map (concat . map (\n -> if 1 == n then "X" else " ")) mns
23:53:26 <coppro> oerjan: The suggested method, which I am using, involves breaking the set into infinite countable subsets, with Zorn's lemma. Thus I am working on the collection of all sets of countable subsets of X.
23:53:27 <augur> > let k = 15 ; mns :: [[Int]] ; mns = [ [ abs (complement (m .&. n)) | m <- [0..k] ] | n <- [0..k] ] in intercalate "\n" $ map (concat . map (\n -> if 1 == n then "X" else " ")) mns
23:53:29 <lambdabot> "XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX\nX X X X X X X X \nXX XX XX XX \nX X X X \nXX...
23:53:38 <augur> > let k = 15 ; mns :: [[Int]] ; mns = [ [ abs (complement (m .&. n)) | m <- [0..k] ] | n <- [0..k] ] in text $ intercalate "\n" $ map (concat . map (\n -> if 1 == n then "X" else " ")) mns
23:55:21 <oerjan> > let k = 15 ; mns :: [[Int]] ; mns = [ [ abs (complement (m .&. n)) | m <- [0..k] ] | n <- [0..k] ] in text . reverse $ intercalate "\n" $ map (concat . map (\n -> if 1 == n then "X" else " ")) mns
23:57:35 <augur> its just nand of NxN
23:58:16 <oerjan> > let k = 15 ; mns :: [[Int]] ; mns = [ [ abs (complement (m .&. n)) | m <- [0..k] ] | n <- [0..k] ] in text . reverse . unlines $ map (map (" X" !!)) mns
23:58:18 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.(!!): index too large
23:59:38 <oerjan> why are there indices other than 0 and 1 in there...
00:01:45 -!- constant has changed nick to trout.
00:03:05 <augur> actually its (1 ==) . nand
00:03:53 <augur> because Int is signed, so if you flip all the bits, you flip the sign
00:04:39 <oerjan> > let k = 15 ; mns :: [[Int]] ; mns = [ [ abs (complement (m .&. n)) | m <- [0..k] ] | n <- [0..k] ] in text . reverse $ intercalate "\n" $ map (concat . map (\n -> case n of 1 -> "X"; -1 -> "Y"; _ -> " ")) mns
00:04:56 <oerjan> > let k = 15 ; mns :: [[Int]] ; mns = [ [ complement (m .&. n) | m <- [0..k] ] | n <- [0..k] ] in text . reverse $ intercalate "\n" $ map (concat . map (\n -> case n of 1 -> "X"; -1 -> "Y"; _ -> " ")) mns
00:06:14 <oerjan> > let k = 15 ; mns :: [[Int]] ; mns = [ [ complement (m .&. n) | m <- [0..k] ] | n <- [0..k] ] in 'X' `elem` (concat $ intercalate "\n" $ map (concat . map (\n -> case n of 1 -> "X"; -1 -> "Y"; _ -> " ")) mns)
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00:06:16 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a]'
00:06:16 <lambdabot> against inferred type `GHC.Types...
00:07:00 <oerjan> > let k = 15 ; mns :: [[Int]] ; mns = [ [ complement (m .&. n) | m <- [0..k] ] | n <- [0..k] ] in 'X' `elem` (intercalate "\n" $ map (concat . map (\n -> case n of 1 -> "X"; -1 -> "Y"; _ -> " ")) mns)
00:07:23 <augur> oerjan: there couldnt be any
00:07:34 <augur> n > 0 has initial 0 in the bits
00:08:25 <augur> (1 ==) . nand gets you sierpinski's triangle
00:08:38 <augur> check out The Philosophical Computer
00:08:52 <oerjan> > let k = 15 ; mns :: [[Int]] ; mns = [ [ m .&. n | m <- [0..k] ] | n <- [0..k] ] in text $ intercalate "\n" $ map (concat . map (\n -> case n of 0 -> "X"; _ -> " ")) mns
00:12:14 <oerjan> > let k = 15 ; mns :: [[Int]] ; mns = [ [ m .&. n | m <- [0..k] ] | n <- [0..k] ] in text $ intercalate "\n " $ map (map (\n -> case n of 0 -> 'X'; _ -> ' ')) mns
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00:14:30 <augur> is that (0 ==) . and
00:14:50 <augur> well it makes sense
00:15:24 <augur> the really interesting thing is that these are the nand/and tautologies/contradictions for all propositions
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00:21:05 <tswett> I wonder. In NFU, is there a function f whose domain is the set of all non-empty sets, and whose image is the set of all singleton sets, such that for all non-empty sets S, f(S) is a subset of S?
00:22:39 * oerjan vaguely recall new foundations is incompatible with axiom of choice
00:22:48 <tswett> oerjan: NFU *has* the axiom of choice.
00:23:30 <tswett> So yeah, there is. Consider the set P = { { (S, {x}), x in S}, S is non-empty }. P is a set of pairwise disjoint non-empty sets.
00:24:33 <tswett> Therefore, there is a set C, called a choice set from P, which contains exactly one element of each element of P. In other words, for all non-empty sets S, C contains a pair of the form (S, {x}), where x is in S.
00:24:48 <tswett> So C is the "universal choice function" we're after.
00:25:34 <coppro> tswett: wikipedia says that it disproves choice
00:25:48 <tswett> coppro: Wikipedia says that NFU disproves choice?
00:26:40 <coppro> tswett: yes, because there is no function x \mapsto {x}
00:26:47 <coppro> this is required to avoid Cantor's Paradox
00:26:54 <oerjan> "Much of this entry discusses NFU, an important variant of NF due to Jensen (1969) and exposited in Holmes (1998)."
00:27:15 <oerjan> and then wikipedia proceeds not to define NFU properly...
00:28:18 <tswett> coppro: I guess I can believe that NFU disproves one *formulation* of the axiom of choice.
00:28:20 <coppro> NF disproves choice, but NFU is not a strict superset
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00:29:00 <tswett> Now I wonder if we can go the other way: given this universal choice function, can we prove the axiom of choice?
00:29:42 <tswett> For all non-empty S, let f(S) be a singleton subset of S. Is it true that "for each set P of pairwise disjoint non-empty sets, there is a set C, called a choice set from P, which contains exactly one element of each element of P"?
00:30:15 <tswett> If I'm not mistaken, the answer is yes: let C be the union of f(T) for all T in P.
00:39:09 <tswett> It really seems like given stratified comprehension as an axiom, NFU has very few other axioms.
00:39:40 <tswett> There are probably a couple of axioms so "obvious" I've completely forgotten them, like extensionality.
00:40:22 <tswett> But given that stratified comprehension is the "basic" axiom and the ones I've forgotten are "obvious" axioms, the only axiom I've seen so far that is neither basic nor obvious is the axiom of choice.
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00:45:54 <oerjan> well comprehension, extensionality and choice are afair the only axioms of naive set theory
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00:46:11 <tswett> I wasn't aware that naive set theory had choice as an axiom.
00:46:56 <oerjan> well you cannot obviously deduce it (without going through the actual inconsistencies :P)
00:47:20 <tswett> Aha, here's another neither-basic-nor-obvious axiom.
00:48:05 <tswett> If n is a natural number, let S be a set of cardinality n, and let 1 -> S be the set of all singleton subsets of S.
00:48:11 <tswett> Then n = |S| = |1 -> S|.
00:48:28 <tswett> The n = |S| part is obvious, of course, but |S| = |1 -> S| is not.
00:49:31 <tswett> Can this axiom also be expressed as the existence of a function? Yeah, I think so.
00:50:10 <tswett> It's the function { (x, {x}), x is a natural number }, isn't it?
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00:58:11 * oerjan peels a bananach algebra
00:58:43 <tswett> One more NBNO axiom. The Axiom of Small Ordinals: "For any sentence phi in the language of set theory, there is a set S such that for all x, x is a small ordinal such that phi iff (x in A and x is a small ordinal)."
01:02:11 <tswett> Okay. If phi is a statement about small ordinals, then there is a set A such that each small ordinal is in A if and only if it satisfies phi.
01:10:17 <tswett> Looks like there's exactly one NBNO axiom remaining, the Axiom of Large Ordinals.
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02:48:45 <zzo38> tswett: In what way? What help?
02:49:17 <tswett> Okay, so Forsome takes [S], a box of a type. That type is S. It then takes f, a function taking a box of an S, and returning a type. It finally returns a box of a type.
02:49:32 <tswett> The type of Forsome is an expression involving Forsome.
02:50:13 <tswett> Its first argument is [Box [Type]], which is a box of type, and also is the expression for the phrase "a box of a type".
02:50:52 <itidus21> <oerjan> itidus21: http://lesswrong.com/lw/k9/the_logical_fallacy_of_generalization_from/ <-- the thing to remember though is that inspite of what is true and what isn't, science keeps developing more and more dangerous things, due to it's unwitting constant participation in arms races
02:50:56 <tswett> It then takes f, a function taking a box of an S, and returning a type. What is "an S"? Well, S = Box [Type], so "an S" is a box of a type.
02:51:17 <itidus21> admittedly i haven't read the article itself yet, and it's not necessarily denying that
02:51:19 <tswett> So f (here) is a function taking a box of a box of a type, and returning a type.
02:53:01 <tswett> What is f? It's the function taking [[S]] (a box of a box of a type) and returning the type "a function taking a box of an S, and returning a type" (a type).
02:53:28 <kmc> describing types in english is so cumbersome, if only someone had invented a concise symbolic syntax for them
02:54:02 <tswett> And modified the human brain to make that symbolic syntax as easy to understand as English, in all cases.
02:54:10 <zzo38> What is a box of a type?
02:54:33 <kmc> yeah because the english sentences one produces this way are so easy to understand
02:54:36 <tswett> zzo38: for all type S, a "box of an S" is a one-element set whose element is an S.
02:56:20 <tswett> The distinction is important in NFU.
02:56:35 <zzo38> I still do not understand very well.
02:56:50 <tswett> Well, I haven't given you any of the context.
02:57:07 <zzo38> I suppose that is why
03:05:07 <itidus21> hello log reader! i know that theres plenty of things wrong with what i'm saying. i haven't been awake very long and i had some kind of nightmare.
03:05:39 <zzo38> What kind of nightmare? The kind of nightmare with plenty of things wrong with what you are saying?
03:09:15 <itidus21> the one where i'm in an alternate universe where haskell curry joined the circus, and all of programming was affected
03:09:30 <tswett> itidus21: that was my fault. I'm sorry.
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03:13:07 <itidus21> nah it was the one where marty mcfly travels to a future which is dominated by something more exciting than the internet
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03:18:15 <itidus21> or being chased through a kafkaesque maze by a female gregor
03:18:41 <Gregor> I've had some REALLY interesting mentions on this channel of late >_>
03:18:49 <Gregor> I hope female me has hair as fabulous as male me.
03:20:26 <itidus21> somehow i think she dresses like tom baker
03:22:03 <kmc> is there something like http://subterfugue.org/ but working on modern linux
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03:42:45 <kmc> there is https://github.com/dustin/labrea which is a bit different, but also very cool
03:50:23 <zzo38> I made the Ptolemaic just intonation to work with Famicom with the exact ratios in all octaves (if using equal temperament, you get approximate ratios which are less precise in higher octaves).
03:59:21 <Jafet> Cue ominous choral music
04:13:24 <zzo38> What ominous choral music?
04:48:33 <pikhq> "行今if君欲it、an他界a待s君。為不君呉上onit、君噛the手that餌s君。" Okay, English written with Chinese characters is really silly looking.
04:51:30 <pikhq> "行 今 if 君 欲 it、an 他界 a待s 君。為不 君 呉 上 on it、君 噛 the 手 that 餌s 君。"
04:51:35 <pikhq> And only slightly less strange space'd
04:52:24 <kmc> what does it say?
04:52:40 <kmc> google translate gives pinyin but i can't read it as english
04:53:04 <pikhq> "Go now if you want it, an otherworld awaits you. Don't you give up on it, you bite the hand that feeds you." First couple lines of "Otherworld", from the FFX soundtrack.
04:53:15 <kmc> heh, that song!
04:53:27 <kmc> i haven't thought about that song in, like, 10 years
04:53:29 <kmc> pretty good one though
04:53:40 <pikhq> Kinda partial to Uematsu music.
04:53:47 <kmc> i wonder if english written with arabic alphabet works ok
04:54:06 <kmc> you can do so many cool things with arabic letters, typographically / calligraphically speaking
04:54:45 <pikhq> If it weren't for the random has-to-be-alphabetic bits, English in Chinese characters basically works. Except, of course, you really need to know your characters to do it.
04:55:11 <pikhq> Like, that whole phrase only repeats 君...
05:02:29 <kmc> naming stuff is hard
05:02:34 <kmc> what is a good way to name things
05:03:13 <zzo38> Throw the Scrabble tiles on the floor, whichever ones land face up, mixed up their order and use that as their name.
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06:01:54 <zzo38> I made up Famicom Hangman it works so far! Only things left to add is tme limit and 7166 more phrases (I already have 514).
06:02:48 <shachaf> kmc: Some people name programs after Italian foods.
06:03:25 <zzo38> I suppose that is one way.
06:11:52 <zzo38> If you have phrases (single words is also OK) to add to Famicom Hangman you can suggested it. Rules are: Maximum length is 32 (but recommended maximum 30; text is centered and the edge is outside of the NTSC safe area). Letters (all converted to uppercase, although input is case-insensitive), digits, spaces, and some punctuation is allowed: - , . ? ! / & ' "
06:12:08 <zzo38> (nine kinds of punctuation)
06:12:43 <zzo38> (Actually, : and ; are also allowed, making eleven kinds of punctuation)
06:12:59 <zzo38> O, and also parentheses, I forgot that.
06:56:04 <kmc> using chrome element inspector to fix typographical errors in the page i'm reading
07:01:33 <zzo38> Can you tell it to save the changes, though?
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07:25:10 <atriq> I had a dream that I was playing a sidescrolling platformer/shoot-em-up with randomly generated levels
07:25:10 <lambdabot> atriq: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
07:27:33 <atriq> I wasn't very good at it
07:28:05 <atriq> It had lava and turrets
07:28:14 <atriq> They weren't turrets
07:28:34 <monqy> what does that mean
07:29:07 <monqy> were there people shaped like turrets? did a wizard turn people into turrets?
07:29:29 <atriq> It means they were people who acted like turrets
07:29:35 <atriq> i.e. standing still shooting at me
07:29:54 <monqy> maybe they had bad legs
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08:35:51 <HackEgo> barts: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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09:24:36 <atriq> Why did I think it would be a good idea to port mcmap to Haskell
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09:37:43 <atriq> @ask fizzie If I, in the near future, were to ask you questions regarding the implementation of mcmap, could you easily answer them?
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09:40:50 <itidus21> because doing what normal people would consider useless things is highly esoteric
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09:46:13 <itidus21> i think just as images can be stored as lossy and lossless, maybe programs can be stored as lossy and lossless
09:49:41 <itidus21> to be honest i think its the sort of nonsense zzo38 might have a cogent opinion on
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11:29:38 <Arc_Koen> ggggh the coffee maker is full of delicious coffee
11:29:56 <Arc_Koen> but if I drink coffee I won't be able to sleep tonight
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12:10:38 <Phantom_Hoover> the internet connection in these halls has an upstream more than twice as fast as the downstream
12:11:42 <atriq> They got the package that says "we're hosting a bunch of websites! Yay"
12:28:46 <Phantom_Hoover> They say you're not allowed t run servers too, it makes no sense
12:29:10 <atriq> How... how do they know if you're running a server?
12:29:24 <atriq> There's loads of ways they can know if you're running a server
12:29:36 <atriq> Maybe Coventry University has an evil plan to take over the world
12:32:51 <atriq> And they're gonna use all the upload speed to take over the internet
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12:33:17 <atriq> The reason this doesn't make sense is because the philosophy department created the plan and nobody can be bothered to shut them up
12:38:12 <Sgeo> Blaxxun. Y U NO EXIST ANYMORE?
13:08:47 <atriq> What number's opaque?
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13:28:33 <Jafet> If you're not sure, go with 127.5.
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14:52:03 <Arc_Koen> wait, is "whitespace" invariable?
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15:53:11 <AnotherTest> On Wikipedia, programming language pages have this side bar thing which shows some basic but useful information (paradigms, creator, year of creation etc.); maybe we could do this on the esolangs wiki too?
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16:13:56 <ion> A couple of photos from the GPS receiver connected to my NTP server. http://imgur.com/a/WtaOp
16:21:22 <lifthrasiir> AnotherTest: maybe bf derivatives should have their own infoboxes.
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16:50:19 <fizzie> "Ultimate GPS Breakout" is kind of an impressive name, I'll give it that.
16:50:20 <lambdabot> fizzie: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:50:24 <lambdabot> atriq asked 7h 12m 41s ago: If I, in the near future, were to ask you questions regarding the implementation of mcmap, could you easily answer them?
16:50:45 <fizzie> @tell atriq That really depends on the questions.
16:51:00 <fizzie> @tell atriq With a nonzero likelihood, yes, I suppose.
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16:57:38 <AnotherTest> lifthrasiir: Perhaps that could be a field in the input box? "Derived from:"/"Derivative of:"
16:58:46 <lifthrasiir> ah, I was thinking of mappings from 8 BF primitives to derivative codes
17:11:01 <AnotherTest> @ask ais523 On Wikipedia, programming language pages have "info boxes" which show some basic but useful information. Maybe we could do this on the esolangs wiki too? (To give you an idea of the information that the boxes would contain; I was thinking of: paradigms, creator, year of creation, derived from, influenced by, influenced, specification, reference implementation etc.
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17:42:35 <elliott> lifthrasiir: congratulations on your IOCCC win
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17:44:43 <lifthrasiir> I was actually in hurry and ended up with reusing a year old code (very subtly modified though)
17:46:20 <lifthrasiir> Best short program: Seonghoon Kang - Decodes spelled out numbers
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18:18:36 <ion> Where’s the source?
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19:10:31 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: I wrote down your idea for a "trigger" operator http://esolangs.org/wiki/Kkipple
19:11:43 <Arc_Koen> I also included an "execute" stack which executes its content as Kkipple code when triggered, though I'm not sure it really fits with the rest of the language
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19:42:52 <Arc_Koen> also I thought the @ stack could be used not only to ease outputting numbers, but for input as well
19:43:37 <Arc_Koen> so I made it that pushing a number onto it would push the ascii codes of its digits instead, and triggering it would merge the digits inside into a number
19:45:03 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:45:15 <Arc_Koen> problem is, getting digits from input into it is kind of hard, for instance if input is '1', io>@* will actually make the number 49 and not 1
19:46:04 <Arc_Koen> the simplest solution seems to have two different stacks, one for turning digits into a number, and one for turning a number into digits
19:46:30 <Arc_Koen> or maybe only one stack, but triggering it would toggle it between the two roles
19:47:24 <oerjan> my brain is unlikely to be of help today because the housemate has a cold and is constantly talking in the phone
19:48:55 <oerjan> which means, by synchronicity, that any mathematical chain of thought is 100% likely to be interrupted by unbearable noise.
19:49:33 <zzo38> The close the door
19:49:53 <oerjan> zzo38: the door is closed. the walls are "paper thin".
19:51:04 <Arc_Koen> if you open the door, though, the thinness of the walls won't matter any longer!
19:52:01 <oerjan> i discovered to my surprise the walls actually _do_ stop the other housemate's music, probably because he has no real bass speaker.
19:52:30 <oerjan> well, most of the time.
19:55:13 -!- Slereah has joined.
19:55:38 <oerjan> Slereah: hey you cannot speak, it's untraditional!
19:56:13 <oerjan> wait a minute, have you been gone? it's hard to tell when you never speak.
19:56:18 <Slereah> Fuck you in the ass with a big rubber dick!
19:56:31 <Slereah> So I had to turn down the IRC for a bit!
19:56:54 <oerjan> Slereah: i have ops and i'm not afraid to ... shutup elliott
19:57:12 <oerjan> hm that was a bit too ambiguous
19:57:22 <elliott> i agree, oerjan should kick chickenzilla
19:58:38 <oerjan> thankfully irc is not a sound-based chat
19:58:52 <oerjan> or else i would soon ban you for coughing
19:59:19 <oerjan> although spamming might also work. sometimes.
19:59:31 <Slereah> Anything interesting happened in the last two years?
19:59:39 <Slereah> Did you solve the halting problem?
19:59:44 <elliott> guess im gonna die cuz i cant stop coffin
20:00:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:00:28 <oerjan> poor elliott, coughed is lower jaw off
20:00:46 <elliott> i see that soundnfury guy isn't here. did you chase him away
20:00:48 <zzo38> I added one idea to list of ideas
20:01:30 <oerjan> hm my underload stuff was last year, wasn't it.
20:02:03 <Slereah> So it turns out nobody implemented the languages I was too lazy to implement!
20:02:12 <Slereah> I am disappointed in your lack of doing my own work
20:02:16 <zzo38> My idea is ANSI codes self-modifiable funge.
20:02:31 <oerjan> Slereah: i did prove some things turing complete. also i did implement some languages, probably not yours though.
20:02:37 <elliott> oerjan: is that a yes. come on keep me updated on all the bullshit that happens here
20:03:08 <oerjan> elliott: i haven't noticed soundnfury since last he bitched against haskell or something
20:03:33 <elliott> guys i don't understand haskell
20:03:38 <elliott> it's almost as if it's some kind of esoteric languag elOL
20:03:59 <oerjan> Slereah: elliott took over as wiki admin, we have featured languages now
20:04:09 <elliott> well it depends what you mean by have
20:04:23 <elliott> i note that as a wiki admin you are responsible for updating those, oerjan
20:04:34 <elliott> 08:37:14: <UnknownCharacter> yup, thats it
20:04:34 <elliott> 08:37:51: <UnknownCharacter> any huevos, I think imma let you computer geeks do your stuff
20:04:34 <elliott> 08:37:55: <UnknownCharacter> now
20:04:34 <elliott> 08:38:22: <UnknownCharacter> so long and thanks for listening
20:04:57 <elliott> 08:03:07: -!- UnknownCharacter has joined #esoteric.
20:04:57 <elliott> 08:03:17: <UnknownCharacter> i loveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
20:04:57 <elliott> 08:06:06: <itidus21> `WELCOME UnknownCharacter
20:04:57 <elliott> 08:06:18: <HackEgo> UNKNOWNCHARACTER: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
20:04:57 <oerjan> also elliott is rarely here, probably because he's spending most of his time in an alternate reality where i am wiki admin.
20:04:58 <elliott> 08:06:55: <UnknownCharacter> i was just passing by
20:04:59 <elliott> 08:07:01: <UnknownCharacter> but thanks for welcoming me
20:05:01 <elliott> 08:07:04: <itidus21> oh its just a bot command
20:05:04 <elliott> 08:07:20: <itidus21> it makes for grandoise welcomings
20:05:05 <elliott> 08:07:23: <UnknownCharacter> well, fuck u then
20:05:26 <elliott> 08:08:02: <itidus21> srory
20:05:27 <elliott> 08:08:05: <itidus21> ^sorry
20:05:27 <elliott> 08:08:15: <UnknownCharacter> im sorry, 2
20:05:27 <elliott> 08:08:32: <UnknownCharacter> let's make out to make up only if u r a hot girl
20:06:46 <elliott> 08:19:22: <UnknownCharacter> with the rain covering my tears... i sat down on some stairs leading to a parking lot
20:06:46 <elliott> 08:19:39: <Phantom_Hoover> can you type a bit faster please
20:06:46 <elliott> 08:19:40: <UnknownCharacter> and i wondered why this all happened.
20:06:46 <elliott> 08:19:50: <Phantom_Hoover> i'm getting bored between messages
20:06:46 <elliott> 08:19:58: <UnknownCharacter> dont rush me, emotions cant be rushed
20:07:37 <elliott> 08:25:32: <UnknownCharacter> lol... okay, I didn't kill myself... but i wish i had thought of that.
20:07:55 <elliott> 08:28:11: <itidus21> it does seem that way.. he hasn't made any references to brainfuck, lisp, turing, or haskell
20:08:29 <olsner> ooh, elliott is here reading the logs out load
20:08:45 <elliott> 08:31:53: <Phantom_Hoover> so... to deal with your suicidal thoughts as a result of a bitter and traumatising breakup, you came to a channel about weird programming languages
20:09:11 <elliott> 08:32:12: <Phantom_Hoover> couldn't you talk to a psychiatrist, or one of those helplines they have?
20:09:11 <elliott> 08:32:25: <UnknownCharacter> they kinda annoy me
20:09:11 <elliott> 08:32:26: <UnknownCharacter> so no
20:09:11 <elliott> 08:32:47: <UnknownCharacter> plus, im an artist.
20:09:16 <olsner> oh, just like every one else then
20:09:16 <elliott> this is my favourite log ever
20:09:21 <oerjan> olsner: we shall now reenact all the embarassing moments of past weeks
20:09:43 <olsner> the ghosts of logs past, here to haunt us yet again
20:10:34 <elliott> 08:35:58: <itidus21> i wonder if he realizes what this channel is about
20:10:34 <elliott> 08:36:18: <itidus21> i realize it, but i just ignore the purpose of this channel
20:11:49 <elliott> 12:06:47: <oerjan> you could say that a couple of while loops had their tests reversed.
20:11:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:11:58 <Slereah> Why the sudden flux of copypasta!
20:12:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:12:30 <pikhq> Especially not this one.
20:12:34 <HackEgo> ELLIOTT: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
20:12:37 * pikhq shoves elliott in a pot
20:12:58 <oerjan> <kmc> i wonder if english written with arabic alphabet works ok <-- semitic alphabets (absomethings) only work well for languages that don't put much information into vowels
20:13:05 <HackEgo> WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
20:13:35 <pikhq> oerjan: Abjads kinda-sorta work for English.
20:13:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: WELcome: not found
20:13:44 <pikhq> oerjan: 'bjds knd-srt wrk fr 'nglsh
20:13:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wElCoMe: not found
20:13:50 <elliott> 13:15:44: <itidus21> half-life 3: the anxiety transferance gun
20:13:50 <elliott> 13:16:58: <itidus21> gabe newell is a cyborg at this point
20:14:33 <Arc_Koen> oh I thought it would find a pattern of uppercase/lowercase in the inputted welcome, and apply it to its welcoming message
20:14:57 <elliott> Arc_Koen: we apologise for the inconvenience
20:15:19 <pikhq> oerjan: 'f crs, thy 'ls rlly sck fr rdng. ' mn, rlly, ths 's *'nsnly* hrd t rd. :)
20:15:34 <olsner> Arc_Koen: I think you're free to add the missing 120 or so variants if you want to
20:16:00 <oerjan> pikhq: and you're cheating on some of the y's too
20:16:20 <oerjan> well i guess abjads do that anyway
20:16:21 <Arc_Koen> olsner: that's definitely not going on my to-do list
20:16:50 <HackEgo> 20:16:49 up 0 min, 0 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 \ USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE JCPU PCPU WHAT
20:17:18 <olsner> okay, w already is a command... but it does the wrong thing
20:17:51 <zzo38> No, I think you should keep it how it is.
20:17:55 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left).
20:18:02 <zzo38> Make up w_e_l_c_o_m_e if you want to.
20:18:46 <pikhq> oerjan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:18:48 <zzo38> OK, then don't make up any.
20:20:42 <itidus21> one possible but awful solution is to make ` case insensitive but implement ambiguity resolvers for any ambiguous cases
20:23:48 * itidus21 begins to get an evil grin as i ponder the type case_sensitive_identifier
20:27:10 <elliott> oerjan: What are people??????????????????????????????????
20:27:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:27:32 -!- dajfsa has joined.
20:28:36 <zzo38> dajfsa: What is that? Do you have anything real to write?
20:28:41 <dajfsa> oerjan: well dont breathe thuogh. you could die
20:29:06 <dajfsa> i think deadfish should be the new featured language
20:29:13 <dajfsa> mainly b/c i am a dead fish myself
20:29:35 <dajfsa> a dead fish with a fed dish (the dish was fed to the dead fish)
20:30:49 <dajfsa> im crying itidus21. crying. crying tears
20:31:07 <itidus21> it's incredibly painful to parse
20:31:38 <elliott> Given my longtime wish to see LaTeX on iOS (and past experiments with porting it myself), I was thrilled to see that TeX appears to have finally made it natively to iOS in the form of TeX Notebook. Naturally once the novelty of being able to typeset on my iPad had worn off I started a spot of digital archaeology to find out how this was done - in summary, it appears (though I could be wrong) that the App's typesetter itself is an x86 emulator, wh
20:31:38 <elliott> ich loads a frozen image of MSDOS6+Tex, and the typesetting is done there.
20:33:50 <oerjan> i am concluding that dajfsa is _probably_ british. and may be Phantom_Hoover, or otherwise elliott.
20:34:48 <dajfsa> oerjan: im actually bird. from outer space. ISS bird. bird originally from canada
20:34:59 <dajfsa> bird big fan of human rights. i mean birdian rights.
20:35:12 <dajfsa> also, you are hexagon philanthorpist.
20:35:20 <HackEgo> 2012-09-22.txt:12:47:33: <dajfsa> ```
20:35:42 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28948
20:36:01 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17482
20:36:25 <dajfsa> OTOH, maybe oerjan is not actually a person and instead a figment of our imagination.
20:36:28 <dajfsa> OTOH, maybe so are ducks.
20:36:41 <dajfsa> OTOOH I don't have that many hands.
20:38:56 <dajfsa> oerjan: Have you ever heard of video games ?
20:39:18 <oerjan> actually i think elliott is more likely than Phantom_Hoover.
20:39:52 -!- atriq has joined.
20:39:58 <dajfsa> oerjan: Well it is all relative... America is more likely than Greenland, for instance. And yet they both exist. Why is that?
20:40:28 <dajfsa> oerjan: (There is also the matter of ice cream.)
20:40:32 <oerjan> america likely? what a ridiculous idea!
20:40:54 <dajfsa> oerjan: It's about the probability of enunciation. And daggers.
20:40:57 <lambdabot> atriq: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:41:00 <dajfsa> They have daggers in Portland..............
20:41:06 <dajfsa> They have atriq in a museum
20:41:11 <pikhq> Everyone knows people only come from Hexham.
20:41:19 <pikhq> You can't have humans without six pigs.
20:41:37 <dajfsa> There aren't pigs. Let alone six. There are gerbils however
20:41:56 <dajfsa> Actually the real thing I would doubt is that fountains can even survive without water (hence oxygen)
20:42:16 <oerjan> rubbish, there are liquid methane fountains on titan
20:43:09 <dajfsa> oerjan: Um, you're a liquid methane fountain? Come on have a little respect.
20:43:40 <oerjan> no i'm a pun fountain, haven't you noticed?
20:44:06 <dajfsa> Clowntain (fountain of clowns; like a mountain)
20:44:15 <dajfsa> shouting is bad for your health anyway
20:45:05 <dajfsa> Heeeeey now..... I didn't order a planet just to get bogged down by wolves who own the sky
20:45:13 <oerjan> yep. although coughing is worse.
20:45:22 <itidus21> mountain clowns have a lot of clowt
20:45:47 <zzo38> What is a "hard line" phone?
20:45:52 <dajfsa> oerjan: Uh , you are not one of the wolves right? I trust business to ferrets
20:46:38 <zzo38> Someone asked this on BBS Scene global onelinerz
20:46:41 <oerjan> i'm a metal cancer dog, does that count?
20:47:07 <shachaf> @@ @let rot13 = @where rot13
20:47:08 <dajfsa> oerjan: Yes. What is a metal cancer dog ?
20:47:26 <dajfsa> Since when does @let foo = @where bar work?
20:47:38 <dajfsa> And who are anthills anyway
20:48:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:48:43 <itidus21> shachaf: i had to check on rot13.com that you didn't special case that
20:49:08 <dajfsa> Who doesn't love special cases? Or cesial spaces?
20:49:39 <FreeFull> > print $ print $ print $ print $ print 4
20:49:49 <fizzie> oerjan: A pun fountain on the fun mountain.
20:50:09 <dajfsa> Don't do that fizzie. We know how are you.......
20:50:12 <Sgeo> I assume that that doesn't work without Caleskell, or whatever Caleskell does to make IO printable
20:50:28 <shachaf> You can do actual IO in lambdabot.
20:50:33 <Sgeo> > print $ (undefined :: IO (a -> IO b))
20:50:34 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a' in the constraint:
20:50:47 <Sgeo> > print $ (undefined :: IO (Int -> IO Int))
20:51:00 <Sgeo> hmm, why did I expect that to work
20:51:03 <itidus21> later: shachaf's book of fun puns
20:51:15 <Sgeo> > undefined :: IO Int
20:51:51 <Sgeo> I wonder how the Showable instance manages to grab the name of the types...
20:52:08 <oerjan> Sgeo: Typeable constraint
20:52:32 <dajfsa> Excel is an "Excel"lent program for managing your spreadsheets, pick up Microsoft Excel today!
20:53:05 <dajfsa> shachaf: Yes. And yes.
20:53:24 <oerjan> there is no f way itidus21 could speak like that for any length of time.
20:53:48 <itidus21> my newly acquired ip spoofing skills at work
20:54:33 <atriq> > "elliott" == "elliott"
20:54:37 <dajfsa> oerjan: What is an f way?
20:54:42 <itidus21> q qq q -q -qq qqq -qqqq -qq qq-
20:54:43 <Sgeo> A equals A. Existence exists.
20:54:44 <dajfsa> I follow the Q Way Path to the Eternalle in the Sky.
20:54:54 <dajfsa> Sgeo: Tell us more, Ayn!
20:54:58 <oerjan> Sgeo: how objective of you
20:55:00 <dajfsa> There is -q if you believe in it.
20:56:28 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class `Asdf'
20:56:47 <itidus21> q q q q q q q q q q q q q q q q.. another uneventfuy day at the seti office.. q q q q (qq)_q_q_q ___ wow!
20:57:17 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:57:34 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Mu'
20:57:39 -!- monqy has joined.
20:59:04 <oerjan> itidus21: i think you are concentrating on the wrong parts to spoof
20:59:44 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Fix'
20:59:52 <shachaf> > uncps (uncps (cps (cps (*2)) . cps (cps (+1)))) 5
21:00:12 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show ((t1 -> t2) -> t -> t2)
21:00:19 <zzo38> What does "cps" and "uncps" means?
21:00:39 <itidus21> oerjan: there is no hidden side to me capable of suddenly being dajfsa
21:00:52 <zzo38> Why do they need such definitions?
21:01:04 <oerjan> itidus21: ARE YOU SURE
21:01:11 <zzo38> Since you can write (flip (.)) and ($ id)
21:01:35 <shachaf> zzo38; Why does anything need a definition?
21:01:36 <zzo38> (I do sometimes write ($ id) in some Haskell programs)
21:01:50 <dajfsa> oerjan: What is "spoof"?
21:01:55 <zzo38> shachaf: Since they are longer definitions, or class definitions
21:02:07 <zzo38> Or type definitions
21:02:24 <shachaf> Instead of writing ($ id) you can write ap id (const id)
21:02:38 <dajfsa> shachaf: Should not cps be cps x k = k x?
21:02:44 <oerjan> > (`id` id) id `id` id 42
21:02:54 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes that would work too if you want to use SKI combinator
21:03:12 <zzo38> ($) is really the infix id
21:03:37 <zzo38> But with a more specific type
21:03:53 <oerjan> > (`id` id) (+) `id` id 42 `id` 7
21:04:08 <oerjan> > ($ id) (+) $ id 42 $ 7
21:04:09 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a)
21:04:53 <zzo38> It may also have different fixity as well as a more specific type.
21:05:49 <oerjan> > (`id` 42 `id` 7) (+) -- sadly this still doesn't work, i think
21:05:50 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Base.id' [infixl 9] of a section
21:05:58 <shachaf> Instead of (flip (.)) you can write ap (const (ap (ap (const ap) (ap (const const) id)))) (ap (const const) (ap (ap (const ap) (ap (const const) id)) (const id)))
21:06:36 <zzo38> Well yes you can use SKI combinators if you want to, I think that is what that is isn't it?
21:06:43 <oerjan> :t (>>>) `asTypeÒf` flip (.)
21:06:44 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
21:06:52 <oerjan> :t (>>>) `asTypeOf` flip (.)
21:06:53 <lambdabot> forall a a1 b. (a -> a1) -> (a1 -> b) -> a -> b
21:07:03 <dajfsa> Second tyme lucky - chinese proverb
21:08:28 -!- atriq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:16:02 <oerjan> > let (x $ y) f = f x y; (x * y) f = x f y in (42 $ 7 * 5) (,,)
21:17:19 <dajfsa> <atriq> @ask fizzie If I, in the near future, were to ask you questions regarding the implementation of mcmap, could you easily answer them?
21:17:29 <dajfsa> @tell atriq Only god can answer quuestionas about mcmape
21:17:58 <zzo38> Are there any uses of the unstable 6502 instructions in which the unstable parts of the operation are irrelevant?
21:18:01 <dajfsa> <Sgeo> Blaxxun. Y U NO EXIST ANYMORE?
21:18:08 <oerjan> ...ok i'm now positive dajfsa is elliott, if there was any doubt remaining
21:18:48 <dajfsa> oerjan: Friends are suns
21:19:02 <dajfsa> oerjan: What was Trotsky any way
21:19:32 <Sgeo> Black Sun. Blaxxun.
21:19:36 <Sgeo> Bitmanagement Software.
21:19:42 <Sgeo> Doesn't quite fit the pattern
21:20:01 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaxxun
21:20:37 <Sgeo> IVN is the king of mismanagement
21:20:41 <Sgeo> I want to slap IVN
21:20:47 <itidus21> oerjan: somehow i doubt managing bits is as fun as it sounds
21:21:05 <itidus21> didn't mean to type that at you
21:22:32 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:23:27 <oerjan> itidus21: well it's too late now, you chased carado away
21:28:28 <itidus21> so.. i guess you can bend a number
21:29:01 <itidus21> but then you just get more numbers really
21:31:48 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:32:54 <Sgeo> I can move objects with my mind.
21:33:16 <Arc_Koen> BUT can you move the lava out of the floor?
21:37:35 -!- Lumpio- has joined.
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21:40:20 <oerjan> to mind, perchance to think
21:48:58 <fizzie> "You need me on your staff, because I'm a man who thinks."
21:50:17 <fizzie> (Geoffrey Pyke, reportedly.)
21:53:04 <Arc_Koen> (this pun works in french as well)
21:53:30 <fizzie> There's a game Discordians play, it's called "Sink".
21:54:35 <Arc_Koen> nd with that I'm gonna sink into my bed, gnight
21:54:44 <fizzie> "UPON SINKING: The sinked shall yell 'I sank it!' or something equally as thoughtful." (From the rules.)
21:55:07 -!- dartman has joined.
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21:55:37 -!- dartman has left.
21:57:28 <oerjan> shouldn't that be yelled by the sinker rather than the sinked, really?
21:57:46 <oerjan> or is that part of the discordianism.
21:59:41 <fizzie> "NAMING OF OBJECTS is some times desirable. The object is named by the finder of such object and whoever sinks it can say for instance, 'I sunk Columbus, Ohio!'" -- another rule.
21:59:45 <zzo38> Perhaps it is supposed to be unclear so that people think of it differently.
22:00:27 <oerjan> i shall second that, seeing the rest of the descirption
22:01:48 <zzo38> Even the Discordian calendar some people think of it differently, there is a perpetual Gregorian to Discordian calendar but the description describes the Julian calendar though; but these definitions have the same result until 2100 AD.
22:05:40 -!- Arc_Koen has joined.
22:06:59 <zzo38> Have you ever made a audio with a "masked saw wave"? What I mean by a "masked saw wave" is, if s is the array for the sound sample and k is a constant, then: s[t]=t&k;
22:11:15 <zzo38> If it is 4-bit digital-to-analog, then you can use k=15 for saw wave, k=7 for saw wave half volume and one higher octave, k=8 for square wave, k=4 for square wave half volume and one higher octave, and some combination of them canbe used too.
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22:16:55 <itidus21> the bending thing was based on an idea i had about 2d origami
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22:35:46 <itidus21> "In January 2002, while a junior in high school, Gallivan demonstrated that a single piece of toilet paper, 4000 ft (1200 m) in length, can be folded in half twelve times." well i'll be damned
22:37:30 <dajfsa> i had an argument once with a smug idiot who insisted you can't ever fold paper that much
22:46:02 <fizzie> Mythbusters I think also folded a big sheet of paper.
22:46:23 <dajfsa> technically thou fizzie you are a big sheet of paper
22:47:02 <olsner> it thoughts, therefore it is
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23:11:18 <zzo38> How do you select high intensity CGA palette in QBASIC?
23:20:54 <kmc> i had an idea for a MMU with configurable page permissions policy
23:21:51 <dajfsa> kmc: Dont lie .........
23:21:59 <kmc> the operating system configures a lookup table for a function whose inputs are the CPU mode, the type of access (rwx), some bits from the page table entry, some of the high bits of the address, and maybe other stuff
23:22:11 <elliott> kmc: So did soundnfury get bored and leave or something?
23:22:12 <kmc> and the function says whether access should fault or not
23:22:18 <kmc> elliott: i have no idea
23:22:34 <dajfsa> i agree wholeheartedly
23:23:08 <itidus21> i think what it boils down to is my problem is i have to work my brain just to maintain a grip on reality
23:24:25 <kmc> this would let you encode global policy like W^X, kernel can't execute user memory, user can't access top half of memory
23:24:37 <kmc> as well as giving flexibility as to what the page table bits mean
23:25:15 <kmc> basically if we started with a scheme this general, there would be no need for specific additions like NX, SMEP, SMAP
23:25:21 <kmc> of course that's a bit of 20/20 hindsight
23:26:10 <kmc> SMAP adds new instructions which the kernel uses to access user memory, which accesses are forbidden otherwise
23:26:25 <kmc> i guess to implement that in my scheme you would feed some spare bits from the instruction encoding and/or a prefix into that look up table
23:27:02 <shachaf> The Xbox 360 only allows encrypted memory to be executed, if I remember correctly.
23:27:07 <kmc> this sort of thing could be useful for userspace sandboxing as well
23:28:25 <kmc> for example a NaCl-like system could force all control flow instructions to specify a certain input to the permissions function
23:28:35 <elliott> this sounds sort of like @ kmc
23:28:35 <kmc> and then use page table bits to delineate where untrusted code is allowed to jump to
23:28:55 <kmc> well @ is the least upper bound of all ideas in computer science
23:30:14 <kmc> well that's pretty useless though
23:30:21 <shachaf> kmc: Did you read about how they managed to get code running on the Xbox 360?
23:30:36 <kmc> because generally "you can jump anywhere within this page" is not a sufficient security rule
23:30:45 <kmc> shachaf: was it a timing attack on the MAC comparison function?
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23:31:48 <shachaf> It was a bug in the system call dispatch code, I think.
23:32:13 <kmc> which bug?
23:32:40 <shachaf> It only checked the lower 32 bits of an address, or something like that.
23:32:44 <elliott> `addquote <elliott> this sounds sort of like @ kmc <kmc> well @ is the least upper bound of all ideas in computer science
23:32:48 <HackEgo> 865) <elliott> this sounds sort of like @ kmc <kmc> well @ is the least upper bound of all ideas in computer science
23:32:57 <shachaf> I saw a presentation about it. It was quite involved.
23:33:16 <shachaf> I think it was http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxjpmc8ZIxM
23:33:47 <elliott> kmc: anyway with this you can sort of see dereferencing as a lookup capability
23:34:09 <elliott> like you are given the capability to query a database that is just a version of another database (memory) filtered by a predictae
23:34:25 <elliott> I sort of prefer making capabilities as small as possible by construction though
23:34:53 <elliott> so instead of giving the capability (Address -> Maybe Byte) you'd give (SafeAddress -> Byte) where SafeAddress is in some way constructed to ban such things
23:34:59 <elliott> obviously x86 is not very well built for this though
23:35:48 <shachaf> (a:Address) -> SafetyProof a -> Byte
23:36:16 <elliott> shachaf: Yes, but I'm not the biggest fan of that either.
23:36:23 <copumpkin> shachaf: doesn't the safety depend on when it's evaluated?
23:36:26 <elliott> (a :: SafeAddress) beats (a :: Address, SafetyProof a) in my book.
23:37:04 <shachaf> Does (a :: PrimeNumber) beat (a :: Number, PrimenessProof a)?
23:39:28 <elliott> shachaf: It depends on your use-case.
23:39:47 <elliott> shachaf: There's not much use talking about or using unsafe addresses, because an address has no use except to point to some information.
23:40:04 <elliott> So if Address only exists to be used in a tuple with a SafetyProof of it, then I'd rather there just be a SafeAddress to start with.
23:40:38 <shachaf> I wonder what it would be like if all proofs were passed implicitly somehow.
23:40:54 <elliott> (Note that you need a way to construct SafeAddress. So in the end SafeAddress kind of ends up isomorphic to Byte.)
23:41:12 <elliott> (Which is the Right Thing, because (Byte -> Byte) means "if you have permission to access a byte, then you can access it".)
23:42:59 <lambdabot> forall a t2 t21. (Num a) => ((a -> t2) -> t21) -> (a -> t2) -> t21
23:44:08 <elliott> kmc: (Do you like how I managed to rephrase your idea in a way that turned it into the identity function?)
23:44:55 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ activity activity-full admin all-dicts arr ask b52s babel bf bid botsnack brain bug check choice-add choose clear-messages compose devils dice dict dict-help djinn djinn-add
23:44:55 <lambdabot> djinn-clr djinn-del djinn-env djinn-names djinn-ver do docs dummy easton echo elements elite eval fact fact-cons fact-delete fact-set fact-snoc fact-update faq farber flush foldoc forget fortune
23:44:55 <lambdabot> fptools free freshname ft gazetteer get-shapr ghc girl19 google googleit gsite gwiki hackage help hitchcock hoogle hoogle+ id ignore index instances instances-importing irc-connect jargon join karma
23:44:55 <lambdabot> karma+ karma- karma-all keal kind learn leave let list listall listchans listmodules listservers localtime localtime-reply lojban map messages messages? more msg nazi-off nazi-on nixon oeis offline
23:44:55 <lambdabot> oldwiki palomer part paste ping pl pl-resume pointful pointless pointy poll-add poll-close poll-list poll-remove poll-result poll-show pretty print-notices protontorpedo purge-notices quit quote rc
23:44:55 <kmc> the power of @
23:44:57 <lambdabot> read reconnect remember repoint run shootout show slap smack source spell spell-all src tell thank you thanks thx ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete topic-cons topic-init topic-null topic-snoc
23:44:59 <lambdabot> topic-tail topic-tell type undefine undo unlambda unmtl unpf unpl unpointless uptime url v vera version vote web1913 what where where+ wiki wn world02 yarr yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw yow
23:45:53 <elliott> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
23:46:23 <shachaf> Whereas theotherthing f = (f .)
23:46:46 <shachaf> @pl ((. f) . (. g) . (. h)) id
23:47:21 <elliott> I still don't understand why cps f is (. f) rather than ($ f).
23:48:16 <lambdabot> forall b c a. (a -> b) -> (b -> c) -> a -> c
23:50:43 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:52:05 -!- augur has joined.
23:53:05 <shachaf> oerjan: You have to have magical artist powers.
23:53:12 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ activity activity-full admin all-dicts arr ask b52s babel bf bid botsnack brain bug check choice-add choose clear-messages compose devils dice dict dict-help djinn djinn-add
23:53:12 <lambdabot> djinn-clr djinn-del djinn-env djinn-names djinn-ver do docs dummy easton echo elements elite eval fact fact-cons fact-delete fact-set fact-snoc fact-update faq farber flush foldoc forget fortune
23:53:12 <lambdabot> fptools free freshname ft gazetteer get-shapr ghc girl19 google googleit gsite gwiki hackage help hitchcock hoogle hoogle+ id ignore index instances instances-importing irc-connect jargon join karma
23:53:12 <lambdabot> karma+ karma- karma-all keal kind learn leave let list listall listchans listmodules listservers localtime localtime-reply lojban map messages messages? more msg nazi-off nazi-on nixon oeis offline
23:53:12 <lambdabot> oldwiki palomer part paste ping pl pl-resume pointful pointless pointy poll-add poll-close poll-list poll-remove poll-result poll-show pretty print-notices protontorpedo purge-notices quit quote rc
23:53:14 <lambdabot> read reconnect remember repoint run shootout show slap smack source spell spell-all src tell thank you thanks thx ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete topic-cons topic-init topic-null topic-snoc
23:53:16 <lambdabot> topic-tail topic-tell type undefine undo unlambda unmtl unpf unpl unpointless uptime url v vera version vote web1913 what where where+ wiki wn world02 yarr yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw yow
23:53:45 <oerjan> > var $ cycle "test\n"
23:54:01 <oerjan> lambdabot: @run var $ cycle "test\n"
23:54:31 <lambdabot> qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq...
23:54:36 <oerjan> ok it's not just the prefix
23:54:56 <lambdabot> Plugin `more' failed with: thread killed
23:56:05 <oerjan> lambdabot is claiming entrapment
23:56:43 <shachaf> elliott: Help, how do I say that something is associative and has an identity?
23:56:57 <zzo38> It is a monoid, isn't it?
23:57:16 <shachaf> Well, I want to include categories.
23:57:52 <zzo38> But even a monoid can be made a category of one object isn't it?
23:58:01 <oerjan> shachaf: "it's a category"
23:58:04 <shachaf> So I could say category but people would get confused.
23:58:12 <shachaf> Because I'm talking about monoids. :-(
23:58:30 <shachaf> If I used a lower-case 'c' I'd be technically correct.
23:58:32 <zzo38> Then say it is a monoid, if you are talking about monoids.
23:58:41 <shachaf> I'm talking about categories too!
23:58:52 <shachaf> I just wrote that it's associative and has an identity.