00:04:58 <kmc> Area Man Constantly Mentioning He Doesn't Know Anything About Baseball
00:06:26 <kmc> this is the one area where nerds -- usually a fairly intellectual lot -- are extremely proud of ignorance
00:06:33 <kmc> is it so in all countries or just the USA?
00:08:13 <olsner> well, outside USA and Japan *no-one* knows what baseball is
00:09:27 <olsner> I suppose nerds might be more proud of that ignorance though
00:09:38 <olsner> as opposed to simply not caring about it
00:09:52 <kmc> well sports in general i mean
00:10:18 <kmc> baseball's just on my mind because San Francisco won at baseball and now all the nerds in San Francisco are loudly proclaiming how much they don't know or care about baseball
00:11:04 <elliott> olsner: some baseball thing i think
00:12:50 <pikhq> olsner: Some other countries play baseball. Japan managed to get other bits of Asia in on it, and it's apparently pretty common in the Carribean.
00:13:40 <kmc> olsner: this clip will make it clear: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElAcu-1dlPM
00:13:40 <pikhq> Also, I can't comment about the ignorance: I don't actively *follow* most sports, but I'm not exactly ignorant on them.
00:13:43 <kmc> (nsfw language)
00:14:06 <pikhq> (hell, I've been known to nerd out on the origins of (American) football and its relation to other games)
00:14:38 * pikhq also enjoys watching football, so. *shrug*
00:14:51 <kmc> yeah that's the irony (?)
00:14:54 <kmc> sports fans are sports nerds
00:15:14 <Phantom__Hoover> i mean ffs you shouldn't be listening to videos at work with speakers on
00:15:20 <pikhq> For the most part? Yeah, it's just nerding out about sports instead of something else.
00:16:04 <kmc> Phantom__Hoover: people do though
00:16:16 <olsner> it appears to have been fairly safe for wu though, so that's not funny
00:16:16 <pikhq> Especially given that for most spectator sports, 99% of the audience doesn't actually *do* the sport in question.
00:16:30 <pikhq> (in any capacity, obviously)
00:16:36 <olsner> kmc: thanks, I think I understand san francisco now
00:16:42 <kmc> baseball in particular is all about the stats and the obsessive knowledge of past games and teams
00:16:57 <Phantom__Hoover> kmc, in that case your workplace is either so relaxed I can't believe someone's going to flip out over some cursing, or you deserve what's coming to you anyway.
00:17:22 <pikhq> And, yeah, baseball in particular is a land of statistical analysis.
00:18:34 <kmc> anyway i don't care if people care about baseball or are ignorant of baseball
00:19:22 <pikhq> You're just finding it an interesting cultural phenomenon.
00:19:46 <pikhq> That smarter people go "sports -- eeew" as a *rule*.
00:19:59 <kmc> no what i mind is people who are conspicuous about their ignorance and proud of it
00:20:11 <pikhq> Aaah. Well. Yes, there is that.
00:20:18 <pikhq> Pride in ignorance is sad.
00:20:31 <kmc> there's a rule that whenever spots are brought up, you have to be the loudest in proclaiming your utter contempt and ignorance of sports
00:20:35 <kmc> lest you be branded as one of Them
00:20:56 <kmc> this is one of the aspects of "nerd culture" which I think derives directly from middle school bullying or something
00:21:26 <kmc> elliott: r
00:21:37 <olsner> hmm, I might end up having to watch the rest of deadwood now... all because of wu
00:21:59 <elliott> olsner: can you explain san francisco to me?
00:22:48 <comex> hey elliott go vote in the distributor election
00:22:58 <olsner> elliott: I really can't do it as well as wu does
00:23:05 <elliott> comex: isn't it all votes for you?
00:23:12 <elliott> if i do that i'd have to like email taral though and ugh
00:23:14 <pikhq> Hey, go vote for President of the World.
00:23:36 <comex> it's one vote for me, one vote for scshunt, one vote endorsing me, two present, endorse Google Groups, and denounce Google Groups :p
00:23:47 <elliott> comex: well i dont think anyone actually cares about the vote
00:23:49 <kmc> deadwood is fucking brilliant
00:23:55 <elliott> i'm not sure why you're even voting at all
00:24:00 <comex> yeah, I just don't want to arbitrarily declare myself the winner
00:24:14 <elliott> comex: well you can arbitrarily declare yourself the winner by having taral decide you'd be good to give the lists :P
00:24:26 <comex> and I started a vote because I felt it was an appropriately Agoran way to do things :p
00:24:28 <elliott> i guess i could vote for you though
00:24:32 <elliott> but not right now, too lazy
00:25:01 <quintopia> is there anything a regex can do that a finite list of greedy string substitutions can't?
00:25:12 <pikhq> elliott: But there's only Obama and Romney!
00:28:10 <olsner> elliott: but you already voted me
00:29:05 <elliott> no this is for distributor silly
00:32:05 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen).
00:33:41 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Epsilo wow what a page
00:33:45 <elliott> perhaps this should be deleted
00:35:12 <elliott> pikhq: do you know why ctrl+alt+fN might not work to switch to vts
00:35:16 <elliott> it's been like this a while for me!
00:36:32 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:36:37 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
00:37:38 <kmc> hey elliott do you think i should follow this link to accounts-google-com-id189134acx-ssl-k-emailrenew77.idns.pl and put in my gmail password
00:37:43 <kmc> seems legit right
00:38:02 <elliott> kmc: google is the most famous polish company
00:38:21 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
00:38:25 <kmc> and it has ssl right there in the name!
00:39:06 <olsner> and emailrenew77 ... if the previous 76 renews got lost, they might give up trying to renew your email any moment
00:40:54 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:40:59 -!- DH____ has joined.
00:44:16 <kmc> do i know what
00:44:24 <kmc> why ctrl+alt+fN might not work to switch to vts?
00:44:46 <kmc> well if you've remapped those keys in X then you have to use the remapped ones
00:45:30 <elliott> i haven't remapped them at all
00:47:30 <ion> Confirmation process complete.. Click here to Continue to your Gmail
00:48:09 <elliott> i just put q in all the fields
00:48:13 <elliott> am i SCAMMING the SCAMMERS????
00:48:15 <ion> I put “test”.
00:48:54 <shachaf> elliott: does that make YOU a SCAMMER?
00:48:59 <shachaf> are you SCAMMING the YOURSELF?
00:49:16 <ion> It’s scammers all the way down.
00:51:42 <kmc> wait did you actually visit that url
00:51:45 <kmc> i haven't been there
00:51:48 <kmc> i had the good sense to stay away
00:51:57 <kmc> you should see if you can SQL inject it
00:54:27 <shachaf> kmc: You can tell it's fake because it doesn't require you to check the "I agree to the Google Terms" checkbox.
00:54:44 <elliott> kmc: the malware will aim heck your linux system
00:55:22 <elliott> anyway seriously does anyone know why vt switching is fucked
00:55:31 <shachaf> elliott: You should upgrade to lens 3.1
00:55:36 <elliott> if it helps i am using kms
00:56:21 <tswett> So guys, you know how there's no computable set of axioms in first-order logic that uniquely determines the natural numbers?
00:56:50 <elliott> if someone had been repeatedly saying that for the past week or so
00:56:50 <shachaf> tswett: No number greater than about 30 is natural.
00:57:17 <tswett> shachaf: hm. I'm not so sure about that.
00:57:20 <tswett> Is 30 a natural number?
00:57:59 <ion> 32 is quite unnatural indeed.
00:58:22 <tswett> Are the natural numbers closed under addition?
00:58:31 <shachaf> tswett: Are you thinking of the axiom "every natural number has a successor"?
00:58:38 <shachaf> That was mistranscribed from the original.
00:58:49 <shachaf> The original is "every natural number (except 31) has a successor".
00:59:03 <tswett> So they are, in fact, not closed under addition?
00:59:13 <shachaf> That depends on what addition is.
00:59:23 <ion> The mindblower is that the “31” in the original text is in base-8.
00:59:24 <elliott> it's just not a natural successor
00:59:44 <coppro> shachaf: I prefer wording it as "Every natural number that is not 31 has a successor"
00:59:51 <coppro> so it's clear that it doesn't preclude 31 having a successor
01:00:01 <shachaf> coppro: No, that's not right.
01:00:05 <shachaf> 31 *doesn't* have a successor.
01:00:10 <tswett> Let's define n + 0 as n, and n + (the successor of m) as the successor of (n + m).
01:00:36 <tswett> Then clearly 31 + 1 is undefined, since it would be the successor of 31.
01:00:51 <shachaf> tswett: Well, you have to prove that a natural number N isn't 31 before you can say things like "the successor of N"
01:01:04 <shachaf> Just like you have to prove it's not 0 before you can say "the predecessor of N".
01:01:21 <shachaf> elliott: fix my ghc bug :'(
01:01:58 <tswett> Let's add another axiom.
01:02:11 <shachaf> elliott: http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/7364
01:02:42 <elliott> btw zfc is inconsistent guys
01:02:42 <tswett> There exists an operation @ such that for all natural numbers a, b, c, and d, if a @ b = c @ d, then a = c and b = d.
01:03:02 <elliott> tswett: that axiom looks rejectable
01:03:23 <tswett> I dunno. Maybe it's consistent with the axioms we have so far.
01:03:30 <shachaf> elliott: dont wrorry!! hes not talking about @
01:03:58 <elliott> shachaf: that isn't a funny joke though
01:05:17 <tswett> http://pastie.org/5147243 - I think these are the axioms we're dealing with.
01:05:22 <shachaf> kmc: Do you know much about accordions?
01:05:52 <ion> according to whom?
01:06:06 <tswett> 1 is zero, 2 is successors for n != 31, 3 is successors for n = 31, 4 is the predecessor of 0, 5 is that succession is a bijection, and 6 is the @ operation.
01:07:11 <tswett> I think this system might be inconsistent.
01:07:31 <shachaf> tswett: You just had to go and add that weird axiom, didn't you?
01:07:49 <tswett> shachaf: well, yes. How else are we supposed to represent ordered pairs of natural numbers as natural numbers?
01:08:33 <tswett> Nat -> Nat -> Nat, I guess.
01:08:41 <tswett> Right, I should have specified that.
01:09:04 <shachaf> That doesn't make sense. :-(
01:09:25 <tswett> Consider the natural numbers 0 @ 0, 0 @ 1, 0 @ 2, ..., up through 0 @ 31, as well as 1 @ 0. Assume that 0 @ 0 = 0, 0 @ 1 = 1, 0 @ 2 = 2, ..., up through 0 @ 31 = 31. Then 1 @ 0 can't be any natural number, so we have a contradiction.
01:09:28 <elliott> because tswett does not restrict natural numbers to 0 and successors of natural numbers
01:09:36 <elliott> @ can just create natural numbers that are not the successor of anything
01:09:43 <tswett> elliott: oh, good point.
01:10:06 <elliott> whereby 32 i mean the number that is not the successor of 31
01:10:24 <tswett> If we *do* assume that every natural number is either 0 or the successor of a natural number, though, we simply have to go through all 32! permutations there, and we can show that our system is inconsistent.
01:10:28 <FreeFull> So you get a different set of natural numbers depending on the left side of @
01:10:28 <tswett> And it's not the successor of 31.
01:10:34 <elliott> tswett: but why would you assume that
01:10:40 <elliott> are you trying to break mathematics???
01:10:59 <tswett> elliott: no, I'm trying to bend it as far as it will go without breaking it.
01:12:03 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: Let's make things more interesting by defining a new esolang!
01:12:05 <shachaf> I'm thinking it'll have about 8 operations.
01:12:12 <shachaf> Not quite sure what they'll be yet.
01:12:59 <ion> shachaf: One of them is @
01:13:30 <FreeFull> 2@0 would be 0 + theconstant + theconstant
01:13:56 <kmc> shachaf: no
01:16:07 <Phantom__Hoover> shachaf, supersedes all lesser operating systems and gives you a sensual massage
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01:16:34 <tswett> http://pastie.org/5147243 - okay, we've added an axiom and clarified an axiom.
01:16:38 <tswett> This new system is inconsistent.
01:16:39 <shachaf> kmc: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayan_(accordion) are pretty the future, huh?
01:17:15 <shachaf> elliott: It's a type of beer, right?
01:17:15 <FreeFull> tswett: Why are you only going up to 31?
01:17:28 <tswett> FreeFull: well, how high would you go?
01:17:42 <ion> elliott: Like yo momma
01:17:52 <FreeFull> tswett: I wouldn't have an upper limit
01:18:02 <elliott> FreeFull: you can't just have all the integers.
01:18:10 <elliott> that's greedy as fuck. people like you disgust me!!
01:18:18 <tswett> Yeah, I mean, you have to stop *somewhere*.
01:18:34 <FreeFull> elliott: I wonder if you could declare 31 as its own successor
01:18:43 <elliott> that's just saturated arithmetic no
01:18:53 <tswett> So let's see, how can we make our system consistent.
01:19:12 <ion> The successor of 31 is 31.5. The successor of 31.5 is 31.75.
01:19:23 <tswett> Currently, it's possible to prove that every natural number is equal to 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, or 31.
01:19:36 <tswett> And that none of these numbers are equal to each other.
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01:20:18 <tswett> FreeFull: in http://pastie.org/5147243? Given a set of 32 different natural numbers, you can prove that there are no natural numbers different from all of them.
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01:21:09 <FreeFull> Do these rules forbid an x where S(x) = 0
01:21:54 <tswett> Maybe these axioms aren't inconsistent after all.
01:22:27 <FreeFull> Maybe you shouldn't be calling them natural numbers
01:22:28 <tswett> Define 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, and 31 as the "standard" natural numbers.
01:22:35 <tswett> Okay, let's call them...
01:22:54 <shachaf> tswett: You *did* see ion's remark, right?
01:22:58 <tswett> Define 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, and 31 as the "standard" Chafian numbers.
01:23:13 <tswett> shachaf: what remark was that?
01:23:14 <FreeFull> Is there any value defined for 1@1
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01:23:25 <FreeFull> I think the @ operation needs to be fleshed out further
01:23:28 <shachaf> The natural numbers are 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 30, 31
01:23:40 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:23:42 <tswett> FreeFull: well, yeah. Axiom 6. There is a natural number a @ b, for all a and b.
01:23:59 <FreeFull> tswett: But that doesn't say what the natural number would be
01:24:27 <tswett> Well, see. Perhaps there exists a natural number, let's call it i, such that iterating the successor function on i never gets you a standard Chafian number, and iterating the successor function on a standard Chafian number never gets you i.
01:25:12 <tswett> I don't think you can disprove that.
01:25:37 <FreeFull> Let's call the non-standard Chafian number 33
01:26:17 <tswett> I dunno. What would we call the predecessor of its predecessor?
01:26:42 <tswett> I think we should just call it i. Then we can speak of numbers like i + 5, and i - 480, and so on.
01:26:57 <ion> shachaf: Sounds right.
01:27:07 <FreeFull> Hmm, we can't have 32 without 3 and 7 conflicting
01:27:58 <FreeFull> i would have to be on a different ring
01:28:09 <tswett> So, I think we have a model of these axioms.
01:28:50 <tswett> It's the set {0, 1, 2, ..., 31} union {i + n where n is an integer}, such that 0 and S are defined in the obvious ways, and then @ is defined just however.
01:29:07 <tswett> No, these axioms are consistent. There's a model of them.
01:29:40 <FreeFull> If there was an axiom stating there were only 32 chafian numbers, then it might be inconsistent
01:30:35 <tswett> Now, this seems to raise a question: what is i + i? I don't think this model admits a consistent definition of addition.
01:30:59 <tswett> Then again, neither does the set {0, 1, 2, ..., 31}.
01:31:15 <FreeFull> a @ b could be defined as b + a*i
01:31:26 <tswett> But then you need to define + and *.
01:31:57 <FreeFull> If you defined + in terms of successors
01:34:42 <tswett> So, what axioms do we want + to obey?
01:36:01 <tswett> We want 0 + a = a + 0 = a. We want a + b = b + a, and (a + b) + c = a + (b + c).
01:36:17 <tswett> And we want a + 1 = S(a) for all a ≠ 31.
01:37:06 <tswett> Are these new axioms consistent?
01:37:42 <tswett> We can now posit a Chafian number corresponding to every natural number.
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01:38:02 <tswett> But all Chafian numbers corresponding to natural numbers 32 or greater are non-standard.
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01:38:38 <tswett> Hm, but does this work? 32 is not 0, so it has a predecessor. Call it P(32).
01:39:30 <tswett> P(32) is clearly not 31. This means that P(32) + 1 = 32. However, 31 + 1 = 32 as well.
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01:40:48 <augur> what are you doing!
01:41:16 <tswett> augur: I'm trying to do as much math as I can with the Chafian numbers.
01:41:39 <tswett> Yeah. "Natural numbers" as defined here: http://pastie.org/5147243
01:41:42 <shachaf> 18:23 <shachaf> The natural numbers are 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 30, 31
01:42:07 <tswett> So, it's impossible for + to satisfy zero-is-identity, commutativity, associativity, compatibility with the successor function, and bijectivity.
01:44:05 <tswett> Well, the axioms at http://pastie.org/5147243 are consistent.
01:44:16 <tswett> I'm trying to add more axioms, defining arithmetic and stuff.
01:45:27 <augur> im not sure these are truly consistent
01:45:28 <quintopia> tswett: where does the standard Z/32 arithmetic break down?
01:45:50 <tswett> augur: I gave a model of it.
01:45:53 <tswett> < tswett> It's the set {0, 1, 2, ..., 31} union {i + n where n is an integer}, such that 0 and S are defined in the obvious ways, and then @ is defined just however.
01:45:59 <FreeFull> If P(0) was 32 and S(32) was 0 then it would be standard modular arithmetic
01:46:28 <tswett> Oh yeah. I said that "32 is not 0, so it has a predecessor", but maybe 32 *is* 0.
01:46:29 <augur> tswett: well i suppose you could define trivial models like {*}
01:46:37 <augur> no that wouldnt work
01:47:09 <tswett> FreeFull: can you prove that?
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01:47:31 <FreeFull> You can't prove either way with these axioms
01:47:55 <FreeFull> Whatever the definition of + is, 16+16 wouldn't be a standard Chafian number
01:48:43 <FreeFull> We could forget about having +
01:48:45 <augur> btw 7 and 4 say the same thing
01:49:06 <augur> well, more or less
01:49:11 <tswett> Aren't you contradicting yourself? You said you can't prove that 16 + 16 ≠ 0, but you also said that 16 + 16 is not a standard Chafian number, didn't you?
01:49:58 <augur> {0,31} work for S(0) = 31
01:50:03 <augur> it satisfies up to 7
01:50:05 <FreeFull> Obviously + is ill-defined right now
01:50:11 <FreeFull> So you can't prove anything about it
01:50:15 <augur> 6 is also definable
01:50:30 <augur> but lemme check if any @ can satisfy 8
01:52:06 <tswett> http://pastie.org/5147243 - okay, here are our axioms now.
01:52:20 <tswett> I'm pretty sure we can prove that 31 + 1 = 0.
01:52:43 <FreeFull> You could define addition in following way: x + 0 = x x + y = S(x) + P(y)
01:53:47 <augur> im confident, actually, that 8 is unsatisfiable
01:54:10 <tswett> Let 32 = 31 + 1. Suppose 32 ≠ 0; then, by axiom 7, the predecessor of 32, P(32), exists. By axiom 3, P(32) ≠ 31. Therefore, by axiom 14, P(32) + 1 = 32. This means that P(32) + 1 = 31 + 1, so, by axiom 15, P(32) = 31. This is a contradiction.
01:54:16 <tswett> Therefore, 31 + 1 = 0.
01:54:25 <augur> yeah pigeon hole i think will work
01:54:34 <elliott> do you have the necessary infrastructure for pigeonhole though
01:54:41 <elliott> do you have the necessary infrastructure for pigeonhole though
01:54:50 <FreeFull> tswett: Those axioms don't state what happens when you have something like 3 + 4
01:54:52 <elliott> that was at Phantom_Hoover
01:54:52 <tswett> Axioms 1 through 8 are consistent. You can't prove that there are only 32 natural numbers.
01:55:01 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: actually there arent 32^2 pairs
01:55:16 <tswett> FreeFull: sure they do. 3 + 4 = 3 + (3 + 1) = (3 + 3) + 1.
01:55:18 <augur> theres (k+1)^2 pairs
01:55:23 <augur> for some choice of k
01:55:32 <augur> actually k+2 sorry
01:55:54 <augur> because the model might identify things that you dont identify in the axioms
01:55:54 <elliott> tswett: so when augur said yes he actuall ymeant no
01:56:01 <augur> elliott: no, i meant yes
01:56:03 <FreeFull> tswett: You didn't put anywhere that x + y = x + P(y) + 1
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01:56:18 <elliott> augur: well i do not see how you can prove it from those axioms
01:56:25 <tswett> FreeFull: yes, but I put somewhere that x + S(y) = x + y + 1. Axiom 14 says so.
01:56:43 <FreeFull> 14. For all a ≠ 31, a + 1 = S(a).
01:57:00 <augur> elliott: if there are (k+2)^2 pairs of numbers, and @ is an endomap on the (k+2) elements of Nat
01:57:09 <elliott> augur: "if there are (k+2)^2 pairs of numbers"
01:57:09 <tswett> Anyway, I think axioms 1 through 15 are no longer consistent. I think you can prove that i = i + 32, and that i ≠ i + 32.
01:57:10 <augur> then @ is not injective
01:57:14 <elliott> augur: you cannot prove there are only 32 chafian numbers
01:57:22 <augur> elliott: i never said there were only 32
01:57:25 <augur> thats why i said k+2
01:57:31 <tswett> augur: so, there are infinitely many Chafian numbers.
01:57:32 <elliott> augur: you cannot prove there are only N chafian numbers for any constant N
01:57:58 <augur> elliott: and you need to stop not reading what i say
01:58:10 <augur> tswett: yes, thats true. if there's infinitely many it might work
01:58:19 <augur> for finite N it pigeonholes
01:58:20 <elliott> you think there being infinitely many might have been....
01:58:40 <tswett> Proving that i = i + 32. That's easy: i = i + 0 and 0 = 32.
01:59:03 <augur> tswett: there is no + in these axioms
01:59:21 <tswett> FreeFull: 21:54:10 EDT.
01:59:28 <tswett> augur: these axioms? http://pastie.org/5147243
01:59:36 <FreeFull> What sort of bullshit time is EDT
01:59:36 <tswett> Axioms 10 through 15 are about +.
01:59:43 <tswett> FreeFull: I have no idea.
01:59:50 <augur> oh, you added some axioms, ok
01:59:52 <tswett> 21:54:10 < tswett> Let 32 = 31 + 1. Suppose 32 ≠ 0; then, by axiom 7, the predecessor of 32, P(32), exists. By axiom 3, P(32) ≠ 31. Therefore, by axiom 14, P(32) + 1 = 32. This means that P(32) + 1 = 31 + 1, so, by axiom 15, P(32) = 31. This is a contradiction.
02:00:25 <FreeFull> tswett: 32 doesn't = 31 + 1 though
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02:01:57 <tswett> Okay, so, proving that i ≠ i + 32. We know that i + 32 = i + 1 + 1 + ... + 1, where there are 32 1s. Since all of those numbers are undefined, this means that i + 32 is the 32nd successor of i.
02:02:03 <tswett> This means that i is the 32nd successor of itself.
02:02:08 <FreeFull> tswett: You've proven that 32 ≠ 31 + 1
02:02:40 <tswett> FreeFull: I said at the beginning, "Let 32 = 31 + 1". I think said "suppose 32 ≠ 0". I then derived a contradiction.
02:03:09 <tswett> I believe this proves that 32 = 0.
02:03:49 <tswett> So, i being the 32nd successor of itself. Is that actually impossible?
02:04:05 <elliott> perfectly possible if 32 = 0, surely
02:04:30 <elliott> tswett: anyway can't i just be S(i)
02:04:36 <FreeFull> tswett: Ok, what you've proven is that either 32 = 0 or that 32 ≠ 31 + 1
02:04:37 <elliott> i don't see that forbidden in the axioms
02:04:49 <elliott> FreeFull: you do not seem to understand what a definition is
02:04:55 <tswett> FreeFull: and 32 = 31 + 1 by definition; therefore, 32 ≠ 0.
02:04:55 <elliott> the sequence of digits "32" has no meaning in itself.
02:05:00 <elliott> tswett defined 32 as meaning 31 + 1.
02:05:06 <FreeFull> tswett: The axioms don't state that 32 = 31 + 1
02:05:16 <elliott> ok so you actually do not understand what a definition is
02:05:30 <tswett> FreeFull: okay, replace 32 with 31 + 1 in this entire conversation, forever.
02:05:43 <tswett> What I've proven is that either 31 + 1 = 0, or that 31 + 1 ≠ 31 + 1.
02:05:54 <FreeFull> The axioms don't state anything about what 31 + 1 would be
02:06:08 <elliott> he just proved what it is tho
02:06:12 <tswett> Okay, let me repeat my theorem a third time.
02:06:55 <tswett> Suppose 31 + 1 ≠ 0; then, by axiom 7, the predecessor of 31 + 1, P(31 + 1), exists. By axiom 3, P(31 + 1) ≠ 31. Therefore, by axiom 14, P(31 + 1) + 1 = 31 + 1. This means that P(31 + 1) + 1 = 31 + 1, so, by axiom 15, P(31 + 1) = 31. This is a contradiction.
02:07:05 <FreeFull> If 31 + 1 ≠ 31 + 1 then it could be not a Chafian number
02:07:33 <tswett> Nor could it be anything whatsoever.
02:08:47 <coppro> tswett: your theorem has a flaw
02:08:47 <elliott> tswett: how long until you have to specify the logic you're using
02:08:51 <tswett> Let me take two 300-microgram tablets of melatonin.
02:08:54 <tswett> elliott: first-order logic.
02:10:49 <FreeFull> It's a contradiction because of axiom 3
02:12:52 <FreeFull> tswett: Does this mean that all chafian numbers smaller than 0 or larger than 31 are equal to 0?
02:14:15 <FreeFull> Does one of the axioms imply uniqueness or something like that? This might be used to prove that there are only 32 unique chafian numbers
02:15:18 <tswett> Yeah, depends on how you define "larger".
02:16:08 <FreeFull> It wouldn't prove all chafian numbers are equal to zero
02:16:40 <FreeFull> 31 + 1 + 1 would be the same as 1, not the same as 0
02:18:09 <FreeFull> Actually, I can still see nonstandard chafian numbers
02:19:24 <tswett> "x + 1 is larger than x" isn't satisfied by any total orders, since 31 + 1 = 0.
02:20:34 <coppro> eh, just well-order the thing
02:21:15 <FreeFull> Suppose i ≠ 0; By axiom 7, P(i) exists. By axiom 2, S(i) exists
02:21:30 <coppro> Not all models of the Chafian numbers have 32 elements, if that's what you're asking
02:21:35 <FreeFull> This can be repeated for the value P(i) and the value S(i), extending infinitely in both directions
02:21:36 <coppro> but there exists a model that does
02:21:45 <tswett> And indeed, we're just defining i as "a non-standard number".
02:21:48 <FreeFull> At no point you will encounter a standard chafian number
02:22:07 <tswett> coppro: doesn't axiom 8 imply that there are no finite models of the Chafian numbers?
02:22:35 <FreeFull> tswett: 0 could be larger than 31
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02:23:10 <tswett> FreeFull: yeah, but you can't consistently have... let me have lambdabot tell you.
02:23:26 <FreeFull> Funny, chafian numbers are almost but not quite mod32
02:23:44 <tswett> > "You can't consistently have " ++ concat [show n ++ " < " | n <- [0..31]] "0."
02:23:45 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char] -> [GHC.Types.Char]'
02:23:53 <tswett> > "You can't consistently have " ++ concat [show n ++ " < " | n <- [0..31]] ++ "0."
02:23:55 <lambdabot> "You can't consistently have 0 < 1 < 2 < 3 < 4 < 5 < 6 < 7 < 8 < 9 < 10 < 1...
02:24:17 <FreeFull> Since there is no S(31), there is no number larger than 31
02:24:17 <tswett> Yeah, that seems consistent.
02:24:27 <tswett> i could be larger than 31.
02:24:41 <coppro> tswett: totally forgot about those ><
02:24:52 <coppro> ok, so yeah, you definitely have nonstandard ones
02:25:13 <coppro> your axioms are stupid
02:25:26 <coppro> S(0) = 31 is allowable as a model of the Chafian numbers
02:25:52 <tswett> FreeFull: wait, no, that's not consistent. Every nonstandard number is the 32nd successor of itself.
02:25:53 <shachaf> Y'all're still talking about this?
02:26:01 <coppro> tswett: not necessarily
02:26:01 <FreeFull> coppro: Not with the axioms disallowing it
02:26:02 <tswett> coppro: 31 is defined as the 31st successor of 0.
02:26:28 <tswett> Fine, I'm adding another axiom saying it is.
02:26:56 <tswett> http://pastie.org/5147243
02:27:00 <tswett> 16. 1 = S(0), 2 = S(1), 3 = S(2), ..., and 31 = S(30).
02:27:36 <FreeFull> Why are the axioms numbered weirdly?
02:28:01 <tswett> Because I want them to be presented in a logical order, but I don't want to renumber any of them.
02:28:21 <tswett> Agora Nomic gets along well that way.
02:28:51 <FreeFull> Can you show that i would be the 32nd successor of itself?
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02:30:46 <HackEgo> QuaeroVeritatis: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:31:34 <HackEgo> shachaf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:31:45 <shachaf> No one's ever welcomed me before.
02:40:27 <HackEgo> SHACHAF: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
02:41:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wELCOME: not found
02:42:45 <FreeFull> tswett: Can you show i = S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(i))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
02:42:58 <tswett> FreeFull: I don't believe so.
02:44:04 <FreeFull> So i is the 32nd successor of itself only if by 32 you mean the chaffian number 31 + 1
02:44:20 <tswett> You used 16 Ss there, not 32 of them.
02:44:44 <elliott> but hey, what's the difference
02:44:45 <tswett> By "32nd successor", I mean the successor iterated 32 times, where "32" is the ordinary natural number 32.
02:45:04 <elliott> didn't we just establish 32 wasn't a natural number hours ago
02:45:27 <tswett> We did, but then we changed our definition of "natural number" to be not stupid.
02:45:35 <tswett> Actually, I'm not sure we really have a definition of "natural number".
02:45:57 <tswett> After all, there's no definition of "natural number" in first-order logic that does not also admit things that aren't the natural numbers.
02:46:10 <FreeFull> S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(S(i))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
02:46:32 <tswett> I guess they're perfectly definable in second-order logic, aren't they? But I don't know what the semantics of second-order logic are.
02:46:41 <FreeFull> Is there a number that isn't a surreal number?
02:47:00 <tswett> Imaginary numbers are not surreal numbers.
02:47:22 <tswett> Cardinal numbers are only sometimes identified with ordinal numbers.
02:47:54 <coppro> cardinal numbers are ordinal numbers
02:48:11 <coppro> but not all ordinal numbers are cardinal numbers
02:49:43 <FreeFull> You're right about imaginary numbers not being surreal numbers I think
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03:05:45 <elliott> this is the second time we have been told Sgeo|web is alive recently
03:06:32 <Sgeo|web> not in any danger. except for crossing streets.
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03:13:02 <elliott> is it bad if i can't stop laughing at sgeo right now
03:13:51 <shachaf> You don't want to do that.
03:13:52 <tswett> A couple dozen millihitlers.
03:14:16 <tswett> But yes, as I was saying.
03:14:54 <tswett> You know how there's no computable set of axioms that uniquely defines the natural numbers? And, in particular, the Peano axioms, in first-order logic, admit multiple models?
03:14:57 <tswett> Only one of those models is computable.
03:15:12 <tswett> You can kind of define the natural numbers as "the computable model of the Peano axioms".
03:15:56 <elliott> but i hear there's no computable set of axioms that uniquely defines the natural numbers
03:16:17 <tswett> And, in particular, the Peano axioms, in first-order logic, admit multiple models.
03:16:21 <Bike> dumb question time: a model is computable if it's a recursive set?
03:16:22 <tswett> But only one of those models is computable.
03:16:35 <tswett> Bike: that's the meaning I had in mind, yeah.
03:19:59 <elliott> tswett: a computable set of axioms that uniquely defines the booleans
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03:21:26 <tswett> elliott: yeah, those exist.
03:22:08 <tswett> There exist Booleans x and y such that x ≠ y. There do not exist Booleans x, y and z such that x ≠ y, y ≠ z, and x ≠ z.
03:22:28 <elliott> tswett: just do the same thing for naturals
03:22:44 <elliott> there exist naturals x and y such that x =/= y. there exist naturals x and y and z such that x =/= y =/= z. there exist ...
03:24:24 <tswett> There do not exist naturals a_0, a_1, ..., a_n such that a_0 ≠ a_1, a_0 ≠ a_2, ..., a_0 ≠ a_n, a_1 ≠ a_2, a_1 ≠ a_3, ..., a_1 ≠ a_n, ... ... ..., a_(n-1) ≠ a_n?
03:24:30 <tswett> For some uncountable natural number n?
03:24:58 <Bike> I still don't understand "uniquely", is this something with ordinals
03:26:05 <tswett> Bike: if a computable set of axioms has the natural numbers as a model, then it also has other things as models.
03:26:27 <Bike> Other things like what?
03:27:56 <tswett> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-standard_model_of_arithmetic
03:28:15 <Bike> oh, those things that I don't understand... thanks.
03:28:22 <shachaf> there's no computable set of axioms in first-order logic that uniquely determines the natural numbers
03:28:32 <Bike> probably I should just read more boolos or somefin
03:28:48 <tswett> shachaf: hm. I think I remember somebody saying that before.
03:31:19 <tswett> I wonder what the Peano axioms + the negation of Goodstein's theorem is like.
03:31:44 <shachaf> What about the Peano axioms + the negation of Godwin's law?
03:36:12 <Jafet> It's like the Peano axioms + the negation of Goodstein's theorem
03:39:46 <tswett> Let i be the smallest number such that the Goodstein sequence G(i) is infinite.
03:41:17 <tswett> i must be very large, of course.
03:41:36 <tswett> So large, in fact, that ZFC tells you there's no such thing.
03:41:46 <tswett> But let's ignore the fact that i doesn't exist. Is it even or odd?
03:42:19 <Jafet> Obviously neither is provable in peano arithmetic
03:42:34 <Jafet> Unless adding the axiom made it inconsistent, in which case both are provable
03:42:50 <tswett> That doesn't seem obvious to me.
03:42:57 <elliott> `addquote <tswett> But let's ignore the fact that i doesn't exist. Is it even or odd?
03:43:00 <HackEgo> 874) <tswett> But let's ignore the fact that i doesn't exist. Is it even or odd?
03:43:05 <tswett> Maybe Goodstein's theorem is trivial for odd numbers or something.
03:43:36 <Jafet> You can prove that for any n, G(n) is a natural number
03:43:55 <Jafet> So you can't prove anything about i, because it doesn't exist
03:44:13 <tswett> Yeah, but what can you prove about it within the Peano axioms?
03:44:30 <Jafet> Nothing, it doesn't exist
03:44:47 <tswett> On the contrary, you can prove that it's greater than 3.
03:45:01 <tswett> Rather: that if it exists, it's greater than 3.
03:45:25 <Jafet> Since its existence is somehow an axiom, you don't need that bit
03:45:38 <Jafet> I guess it might be possible to prove it even or odd
03:45:47 <Jafet> Proving it to be both would be interesting
03:46:21 <tswett> That would mean that your system is inconsistent. And it isn't.
03:46:48 <Jafet> Well, it could be inconsistent
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03:46:58 <Jafet> I don't think anyone knows
03:47:08 <Bike> couldn't it only be inconsistent if peano was inconsistent?
03:47:19 <tswett> The Kirby–Paris theorem states that it is, in fact, consistent.
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03:47:52 <Jafet> In the sense that it is neither provable nor unprovable in peano arithmetic
03:47:56 <elliott> well PA could be inconsistent
03:48:09 <Jafet> Not in the sense that adding it or its negation won't cause the new axioms to be inconsistent
03:48:32 <Jafet> Gentzen showed that PA is consistent, sort of
03:48:39 <elliott> yes the "sort of" is the rub
03:48:59 <elliott> Edward Nelson had an attempted proof of PA inconsistency recently
03:49:06 <elliott> but it turned out to be flawed
03:50:39 <tswett> elliott: do you know if you've exceeded my little brother in age yet?
03:50:55 <elliott> i don't know, how old is he
03:51:29 <elliott> "Theorem: Nelson's proof can't be right.
03:51:29 <elliott> Proof: The formal system within which Nelson carries out his proofs requires a theory of syntax. This theory is surely at least as strong as PRA. So:
03:51:29 <elliott> (1) If Nelson's proof is right, then it follows that Nelson's proof is wrong."
03:52:11 <Jafet> But you have consistent proofs in an inconsistent logic
03:52:22 <Jafet> You just have to be really careful, probably
03:52:43 <elliott> i wonder what would happen if PRA got proved inconsistent overnight
03:53:25 <Jafet> The total and irrevocable collapse of civilisation
03:53:28 <tswett> elliott: uh, I think he's like 17 or something.
03:53:36 <elliott> edward nelson is one of my favourite wacky mathematicians
03:53:41 <elliott> IIRC he doesn't believe exponentiation is total
03:53:54 <elliott> I forget his argument, although ISTR it's at least vaguely compelling
03:54:17 <tswett> Hey, Nelson is the guy that developed internal set theory.
03:54:38 <Jafet> http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=103
03:54:52 <elliott> Jafet: yes! I love that anecdote
03:55:19 <shachaf> Everyone loves that anecdote.
03:59:35 <kmc> i love that anecdote
04:00:09 <kmc> ∀p. ♥(p, A)
04:02:41 <Bike> guess that proves that.
04:03:01 <lambdabot> Could not find module `Debug.SimpleReflect':
04:03:06 <Bike> I have to ask what the time limit is...
04:03:11 <lambdabot> Could not find module `Debug.SimpleReflect':
04:03:15 <shachaf> Something weird is going on with lambdabot recently.
04:03:19 <lambdabot> Could not find module `Debug.SimpleReflect':
04:05:27 <lambdabot> Could not find module `Debug.SimpleReflect':
04:08:38 <lambdabot> Could not find module `Debug.SimpleReflect':
04:09:19 <tswett> 1267650600228229401496703205376
04:20:03 <Jafet> `run echo '2^100' | bc
04:20:06 <HackEgo> bash: bc: command not found
04:20:46 <Jafet> `run echo '2 100^p' | dc
04:20:49 <HackEgo> 1267650600228229401496703205376
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05:06:12 <kmc> this machine has sda1 through sdo1
05:06:16 <kmc> more than half way through the alphabet
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05:09:05 <kmc> is next i think
05:12:58 <kmc> i'm not sure i can even name 9 STDs
05:13:15 <Jafet> You'd need to be as debauched as five Babylons
05:13:32 <kmc> i mean if you have sex with someone who has a cold, you might get a cold
05:13:34 <kmc> does that count
05:14:02 <kmc> what about sexually transmitted crazy
05:14:45 <Jafet> I think it's only used for things that are transmitted only through sex
05:14:57 <kmc> well HIV is not transmitted only through sex
05:14:59 <Jafet> Like national secrets
05:15:13 <kmc> i think all STDs are possible to catch some other way
05:15:15 <kmc> if you get creative
05:15:30 <Jafet> Depends on how phallic you think needles are
05:15:57 <kmc> fair point (no pun intended (pun very much intended))
06:09:34 <shachaf> kmc: My flag shirt arrived today.
06:10:14 <shachaf> Seems a higher-quality shirt than the last one.
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10:15:43 <shachaf> elliott: Please /nick to enlightening
10:15:54 <shachaf> So my /query window gets renamed.
10:16:44 <shachaf> elliott: Alternatively, tell me how to rename an irssi /query window.
10:18:52 <shachaf> elliott: how about you try
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10:31:35 <Arc_Koen> so here's an idea for a language
10:31:54 <Arc_Koen> its only way of branching would be to use lazy evaluation of boolean expressions
10:32:31 <Arc_Koen> (for instance, assuming x always return true, "if (b) {x} else {y}" can be written "(b AND x) OR y")
10:33:01 <Arc_Koen> but this language would do its best to do minimalist; in particular, its only logic gate would be the universal logic gate XOR
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11:37:23 <Jafet> /mode +median mean
11:37:23 <fizzie> Sounds likely; the average person is mean.
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11:41:29 <mean> i noticed they don't have this mode
11:45:42 <elliott> sounds like you want a cloak
11:45:53 <elliott> you can get one for asking for one in #freenode
11:46:06 <HackEgo> mean: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
11:46:21 <elliott> (asking in #freenode after reading http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#cloaks, ofc)
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12:04:17 <elliott> pikhq: hey you know things about wayland right
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12:35:14 <FreeFull> When I try to start thunar, I get (thunar:27545): GVFS-RemoteVolumeMonitor-WARNING **: invoking List() failed for type GProxyVolumeMonitorUDisks2: Method `List' returned type `(a(sssbbbbbbbbuasa{ss}sa{sv})a(sssssbbssa{ss}sa{sv})a(sssssbsassa{sv}))', but expected `(a(ssssbbbbbbbbuasa{ss}sa{sv})a(ssssssbbssa{ss}sa{sv})a(ssssssbsassa{sv}))' (g-io-error-quark, 13)
12:40:05 <elliott> FreeFull: i think that's a dbus type thing
12:41:22 <fizzie> You seem to be expecting three s too many.
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13:02:05 <FreeFull> Logging out and back in fixed it
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13:14:26 <atriq> elliott, you were right
13:15:00 <fizzie> Elliott was right?! Uh, I mean, of course.
13:15:42 <atriq> Brogue is very fun
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13:39:18 <nooga_> i've finally found the best reason to use OS X
13:39:48 <nooga_> ehttp://cl.ly/image/3N1V131H2Z1B
13:39:56 <nooga_> http://cl.ly/image/3N1V131H2Z1B
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13:42:45 <Jafet> http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=50107
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14:40:13 <Arc_Koen> uh, how do I get rid of this horrible scroll bar if my <pre> </pre> is too large?
14:41:17 <Arc_Koen> (that is, how do I tell mediawiki that it should let my browser display a newline if the line is too large for the screen)
14:42:34 <Arc_Koen> of course I could insert newlines my self but that sounds like a bad way to deal with the problem
14:42:57 <Arc_Koen> especially if not everyone has the exact same screen I have
14:43:48 <fizzie> The obvious solution is of course to mandate same screens for everyone.
14:44:23 <Arc_Koen> yes I was thinking about sending a mail to the president of computers
14:45:17 <tswett> Lessee, which US federal executive department would that be?
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14:46:12 <tswett> The Department of... Energy?
14:46:42 <ais523> don't the chamber of commerce run the internet?
14:46:58 <fizzie> Does US have a Department of Conservation of Energy?
14:47:18 <ais523> you don't normally need government departments to enforce the laws of physics
14:47:39 <tswett> That's have to be an agency of the Department of Things We Have No Control Over.
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14:48:15 <atriq> fizzie, nah, the Democrats are in power and they're liberal
14:48:25 <atriq> They've got a Department for the Liberation of Energy
14:48:33 <Arc_Koen> are you saying there the president of physics is not needed?
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14:48:45 <Arc_Koen> I don't think he would like hearing that
14:48:51 * pikhq_ votes for a Department of Entropy
14:51:04 <ais523> can we compromise on a department of enthalpy?
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14:53:53 <tswett> I demand that it be a Department of Enormity.
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14:54:03 <tswett> I will not settle for anything less.
14:54:31 <atriq> I wonder if I could apply for US citizenship on the basis that my gran was born in California
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14:55:04 <tswett> I wonder what would happen if I applied for US citizenship.
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15:02:58 <Arc_Koen> so, hum, anyone knows how to get rid of the scroll bar?
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15:07:25 <Arc_Koen> elliott: if I have a long line in a <pre> block, it all stays in one line, with a horizontal scroll bar to see what's out of the screen
15:07:43 <Arc_Koen> instead of displaying automatic newlines as is done with normal text
15:08:47 <elliott> you can change the pre-wrap style thing but i forget how right now
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15:45:02 <atriq> Is "Sherlock" a real name?
15:45:17 <atriq> Oh, it appears to be a surname that exists
15:45:25 <atriq> So it could presumably be used as a first name
15:45:39 <atriq> (cf. Robson Green et al)
15:45:55 <atriq> (who incidentally was from Hexham)
15:46:52 <HackEgo> Hexham is a European town. There are nine people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Taneb looks after the ham.
15:47:11 <nooga_> i know what's Hexham, atriq
15:47:27 <atriq> Robson Green doesn't
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16:09:41 <nooga> after playing with this PDP8/e
16:10:06 <nooga> I don't get how they could use it for something useful back then
16:18:18 <Jafet> Spoiled by Gordon Moore.
16:21:03 <nooga> he didn't really predict anything
16:22:21 <nooga> IMHO management divisions just learned about his predictions and ordered enginieers to fulfill them
16:25:05 <Jafet> He should have predicted faster chips then!
16:26:18 <nooga> but there is another law
16:26:56 <nooga> that limits the speed of electrons :F
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16:31:02 <Jafet> Smaller components get hotter because they have to move more electrons, which makes it harder to move electrons around, which makes it necessary to make the components smaller
16:31:10 <Jafet> It's a wonder that these chips ever get made
16:32:04 <Phantom__Hoover> Don't modern chips generate more power per unit volume than a nuclear reactor?
16:32:42 <Jafet> Well, nuclear reactors can probably generate more if they turned all the safeties off
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16:43:29 <Arc_Koen> Jafet: in which case they would be called nuclear bombs
16:44:22 <Arc_Koen> do you mean there would be nobody left to call them anything?
16:44:25 <Phantom__Hoover> nuclear reactors aren't even close to being able to properly explode.
16:44:48 <Arc_Koen> I thought if you removed the control bars the reaction would chain exponentially
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16:45:32 <Phantom__Hoover> They tend to melt through the containment vessel or cause heat-related explosions.
16:46:19 <kmc> the only reason you get so much power out of a nuclear bomb is that you shove all the stuff together at high speed in a very precise way
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16:46:45 <kmc> which keeps it from flying apart just long enough to go crazy
16:46:47 <kmc> yeah that's true
16:49:38 <Phantom__Hoover> Although a criticality excursion might count as a tiny nuclear explosion? Anyway, not enough to fit into what everyone thinks of as a nuclear explosion.
16:49:49 <kmc> yeah, the manhattan project had originally planned to use a gun-type bomb with plutonium
16:50:06 <kmc> but they couldn't make plutonium pure enough at scale to prevent it from spontaneously fizzling during the detonation process
16:50:31 <kmc> so they had to use the much more complex implosion design for Pu
16:54:14 <Arc_Koen> what if you mix naquida in the fuel?
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16:57:07 <Arc_Koen> I honestly have no idea. They usually just link it to some random ship they found, using copper and a lot of tape, and it generates enough power to travel across the galaxy (and sometimes outside)
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18:03:22 <Phantom__Hoover> It's run by RBS so doubtless the name will be the most interesting thing about it.
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18:05:12 <Phantom__Hoover> <Phantom__Hoover> I have an email notifying me of a "female movable feast".
18:06:39 <nooga> what's "female movable feast"?
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19:23:35 <zzo38> Do you know what speed the ARMv2a-compatible Amber core can run at? Do you know how to make some of kind of modifications such as hardwiring the cacheable areas and supervisor areas and so on?
19:27:52 <zzo38> I might need to make the computer at first using FPGA, later on it may be replaced with open-source FPGA and/or ASIC components.
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19:43:42 <zzo38> Do you like this chess/shogi variants? http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSkirachesskiras
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19:52:50 <Arc_Koen> If your opponent's Kira is a knight's move away or one space orthogonally away
19:53:03 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: what do you mean by "one space orthogonally away"?
19:54:48 <Arc_Koen> also I don't understand the thing about double wins
19:57:38 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: I mean what is sometimes called the "Wazir"; from c3, it can capture on c2, c4, b3, and d3, for example.
19:58:21 <zzo38> Double wins is just for scoring, you count as 2 wins instead of 1
19:58:50 <Arc_Koen> from what I understand, you win when both special pieces of your opponents are out
20:00:14 <zzo38> But if you win due to your opponent's L dies from your Kira when they have no Kira, then you win, this is a special win count as double. Same if your L capture opponent's Kira when they have no L, it is win so it count as a double win.
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20:00:45 <zzo38> Is this understandable to you, or not?
20:03:23 <Arc_Koen> well yes but it that case it's only possible to double-win, is it not?
20:03:48 <Arc_Koen> I mean, a win occurs when both L and Kira are dead... but for that, you have to kill one of the two, then the second
20:04:03 <Arc_Koen> and you're saying that when the second dies, if the first was already dead, it's a double-win
20:04:10 <zzo38> Yes, in those cases it is only possible to double win; if the second is captured normally though, then it is a single win.
20:04:10 <Arc_Koen> so it looks to me like it's always a double-win
20:04:21 <kmc> 'Did U know that 1-877-SAF-RAIL dials directly to our Transit Police dispatch center? Put it in ur contacts. #potontrain #crimesinprogress'
20:04:24 <kmc> HASHTAG POT ON TRAIN
20:04:35 <Arc_Koen> I might be confusing "killing" and "capturing"
20:05:49 <Arc_Koen> so what exactly is the propoer vocabulary? "killing" for the death note, "capturing" for regular chess captures, and "eliminating" when not making the distinction?
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20:07:13 <zzo38> I can add that to the notes section.
20:10:30 <Arc_Koen> if you eliminate your opponent's second special piece using your special power, then it's a double-win
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20:28:30 <kmc> '...physics doesn't really need sophisticated stats (unlike biology and medicine) because your data isn't crap. Nobody approves a billion-dollar supercollider because somebody was just slightly able to exclude the null hypothesis at two sigma with a chi-square. People do approve billion-dollar pills that way.'
20:29:36 <pikhq> Isn't the frontier of physics actually based in sophisticated stats? :)
20:30:15 <Bike> don't anger the nerds
20:30:28 <Bike> "rational drug design" being a distinct thing is pretty funny, though.
20:30:48 <kmc> who's angering what nerds
20:31:12 <kmc> i think in physics you are just expected to get more data until your conclusions are relatively clear
20:33:13 <pikhq> kmc: Well, yes, physics does expect a ton of data. The higgs boson result recently was "5 sigma confirmation of the existence of *a* boson that happens to be consistent with the Higgs boson hypothesis.", no?
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20:50:25 <kmc> yeah i think so
20:51:01 <kmc> it sounds like you are emphasizing a distinction between "the higgs boson" and "a boson that happens to be consistent with the higgs boson" and I'm not sure that's a meaningful distinction
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20:52:14 <zzo38> I don't think they would be different anyways; if it has the properties of the Higgs boson then it must be the Higgs boson isn't it?
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20:53:26 <Phantom__Hoover> If you detected an unknown particle and you only knew it had a charge of -1 it would be consistent with an electron, but it could well be something else.
20:53:52 <zzo38> Yes the electron has more properties than just its electric charge.
20:54:13 <kmc> fair enough
20:54:41 <pikhq> kmc: I'm saying that the physicists themselves are making that distinction. In the name of being careful.
21:07:29 <kmc> 'What does a $1.6 million explosion sound like? We'll have to ask Fisker Automotive. Sixteen of the luxury carmaker's $100,000 Karma hybrid sports sedans caught fire, blew up and then burned to a crisp after being submerged during Hurricane Sandy. '
21:17:14 <ion> ‘Not a lot of people know this, but the “B” in Benoît B. Mandelbrot’s name stands for “Benoît B. Mandelbrot”.’
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21:42:57 <kmc> if only Unicode had a Mandelbrot Set character :/
21:43:40 <Arc_Koen> pikhq: actually for one of the two experiments it was actually 4.9 sigma :)
21:50:32 <Arc_Koen> (which is not really relevant at all, except very enjoyable for those who were part of the other experiment that got 5.1)
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23:57:57 <zzo38> I have had idea before, of a + | ^ operator (these being the C operators), which is allowed only if all are the same result, and its opposite being the - &~ ^ operator.
23:58:15 <zzo38> It could be usable for optimization in some cases, I guess.
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00:08:35 <zzo38> Can you make a Verilog/VHDL/PALASM/other hardware description languages implementation of Checkout?
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01:22:46 <shachaf> «I'm not a real programmer. I throw together things until it works then I move on. The real programmers will say "Yeah it works but you're leaking memory everywhere. Perhaps we should fix that." I’ll just restart Apache every 10 requests.» -- Rasmus Lerdorf
01:22:50 <shachaf> «We restart HN every 5 or 6 days, or it gets slow (memory leaks).» -- Paul Graham
01:24:35 <kmc> real programmers indeed
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01:57:35 <ais523\unfoog> esolang idea: an esolang where leaking memory and having allocations fail is the only way to do conditionals
01:59:36 <zzo38> ais523\unfoog: OK, let's write that in esolang list of ideas.
02:00:22 <zzo38> I have been told that LLVM does not target old ARM architectures. It is not too much of a problem, since GCC can still target them.
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02:02:24 <zzo38> ARM are still called RISC even though the new ones are more complicated.
02:02:43 <Bike> do they have an "evaluate polynomial" instruction?
02:03:13 <zzo38> I don't know, but I don't think it has something like that; only I know VAX has evaluate polynomial, I think.
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02:06:35 <kmc> RISC just means "not x86" now ;P
02:09:46 <Slereah> I program in notx86 all the time!
02:09:54 <Slereah> notx86 is the best language
02:13:43 <zzo38> kmc: Why did they do that?
02:14:19 <pikhq> RISC is in the name of ARM though.
02:15:34 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes I know but still the new ones are more complicated, having not just one but many instruction sets, and various other features added on
02:16:16 <Bike> but it's still "reduced" from the vax, so it's all good
02:16:50 <pikhq> In modern parlance "RISC" refers to ISAs that use a load/store architecture, no?
02:17:28 <kmc> well i would say it refers to a whole set of architectural features
02:17:33 <pikhq> i.e. without really ludicrously complex addressing modes, like x86 is known for...
02:17:43 <kmc> ARM has some fairly complex addressing modes
02:17:51 <kmc> and x86's aren't that complex
02:18:01 <kmc> ARM has pre/post increment/decrement which x86 lacks
02:18:27 <kmc> but x86 lets you do things like INC a memory address, which RISC processors typically avoid
02:18:39 <pikhq> And has a strcpy opcode.
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02:18:54 <kmc> though you need something like that for concurrency primitives
02:19:05 <kmc> atomic test-and-set is also a memory read and a write together in the same instruction
02:20:35 <zzo38> 6502 also has increment a memory address (it lacks a increment accumulator instruction!), and VAX even has increment immediate.
02:21:00 <Bike> increment immediate, really? is it self-modifying, then?
02:23:22 <zzo38> Yes, if the program is stored in RAM it may, I suppose, do so. It sets the flags too so it might be useful for that purpose too.
02:30:45 <zzo38> (RogueVM also can use (non-short) immediates as a destination, by using the PC post-increment addressing mode. I think this is similar to how VAX does it.)
02:33:02 <zzo38> 6502 does have increment X register and increment Y register, but cannot increment A register; but, instruction for addition is only usable with A register.
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02:43:03 <kmc> by that standard, AMD64 also has store immediate, increment immediate, etc.
02:43:56 <kmc> incb (%rip); .byte 0xc2
02:46:00 <kmc> ARM is interesting because they added various features specifically to combat weaknesses of RISC
03:01:49 <kmc> i think increment/decrement address modes are an example of that
03:02:18 <kmc> otherwise you have to load, add, store, and it just sucks
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03:08:10 <shachaf> kmc: That fourth operation is the worst.
03:21:25 <kmc> the sucking one?
03:21:40 <kmc> hm but what i said isn't very accurate
03:21:46 <kmc> because your counters should be in registers anyway
03:27:59 <kmc> i am the wrost
03:28:35 <kmc> i watched Star Trek: TNG for the first time the other day
03:29:09 <pikhq> Fair warning, TNG honestly varies from awesome to suck.
03:29:47 <pikhq> How'd you like whatever episode you saw?
03:30:14 <kmc> we had some expert nerds select a 3-episode cycle
03:30:21 <kmc> well okay "select 3 episodes"
03:30:55 <pikhq> That probably helps.
03:30:56 <ion> I watched all of Star Trek a few years ago. It took about a year.
03:31:10 <ion> (in chronological order)
03:31:15 <kmc> we watched "Clues", "The Measure of a Man", and "The Inner Light"
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03:31:43 <pikhq> Perfect selection.
03:32:17 <kmc> i didn't much care for the second one
03:32:24 <kmc> "clues" was good and "inner light" was great
03:32:59 <pikhq> "The Inner Light" is often considered the best episode of TNG. It is inarguably a great one.
03:33:15 <kmc> yeah it's pretty cool
03:33:24 <pikhq> That selection is overall great for giving you a feel of what the series is like.
03:33:38 <kmc> i have the whole series stashed away on a hard drive somewhere
03:33:42 <kmc> maybe it's time for a marathon
03:34:42 <kmc> "clues" had a cool idea but the structure was kind of weak
03:35:01 <pikhq> Beware: season 1 sucks horribly, and season 2 varies ("Measure of a Man" is one of the better ones)...
03:35:23 <kmc> they don't really get very far in unraveling the mystery before data is just like "ok, here's what happened"
03:36:18 <pikhq> The show really got into its stride after Roddenberry's death, TBH...
03:36:18 <kmc> you should watch "The Inner Light" at least
03:36:23 <pikhq> shachaf: In short, yes.
03:37:02 <pikhq> Especially The Inner Light. Hugo Award winner.
03:37:30 <ion> A brilliant series of TNG remixes (to be watched in order): http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9CCCF2C09E92679B
03:38:05 <pikhq> One of three Trek episodes so awarded. (the other being "The Menagerie", the only TOS two-parter, and "All Good Things...", the TNG finale)
03:38:17 <pikhq> ("All Good Things..." is an amazing episode, but don't watch it yet.)
03:39:00 <pikhq> kmc: Another one I recommend is "Darmok".
03:40:36 <ion> Has everyone watched Babylon 5?
03:40:47 <pikhq> No; it's in my giant queue
03:43:01 <ion> It’s a rare show in that they had a great five-year story in advance instead of inventing the story as they go.
03:43:21 <ion> One of my absolute favorites.
03:43:56 <kmc> that's cool
03:43:58 <kmc> i should watch that too
03:44:20 <pikhq> kmc: You may also enjoy DS9. There might be a modicum of enjoyment from TOS and TAS. VOY and ENT will make you want to drink all the alcohol.
03:45:06 <kmc> that sounds hazardous
03:45:19 <pikhq> It's better than remembering.
03:46:24 <ion> B5 can seem to start a little slowly (especially since you don’t realize all the apparently insignificant things that are preludes to big events later on) but after watching enough of it you’ll surely find it worth it.
03:46:37 <ion> don’t realize the first time you watch it, that is
03:47:00 <pikhq> And the episode "Threshold" will make you omit the middlemen and simply give yourself a brainectomy.
03:48:48 <ion> Be sure to watch Star Trek: The Animated Series, the pinnacle of the franchise.
03:49:07 <pikhq> I wouldn't say that.
03:49:19 <pikhq> It's decently written, but the animation is hilariously bad.
03:49:42 <coppro> pikhq: is threshold the one that got retconned out instantly?
03:49:44 <pikhq> It also does weird things to the setting if you accept it as canon.
03:50:21 <ion> M’Ress making random noises while talking http://youtu.be/jjGhYexrJ0c
03:50:21 <pikhq> Among other things, TAS imports parts of Known Space into the setting.
03:51:13 <pikhq> Also, the coloring is sad. ... The guy in charge of chosing the colors of things was literally color blind.
03:52:37 <coppro> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdQwE6VK1hg
03:53:53 <ion> Haha, i had forgotten Threshold was *that* episode. Yeah, it was horrible. :-D
04:06:41 <kmc> aw, they're not making that spinoff of The Office starring Dwight and his wacky Nazi uncle, after all
04:07:02 <kmc> i was looking forward to finding out just how bad it would be
04:08:41 <ion> I have everything from S06E20 still in the queue.
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04:12:03 <krzysz00> I wrote this over the last few days. Your thoughts? https://github.com/krzysz00/singl
04:13:28 <kmc> i see a spec for a language but not a high-level overview of why it's interesting
04:13:35 <kmc> good languages (esoteric and otherwise) usually have both
04:15:29 <zzo38> krzysz00: It is OK, I think. Still you should also have what kmc request too
04:19:23 <shachaf> I have an esolang but its spec is uncomputable.
04:19:33 <shachaf> tswett: You know what else is uncomputable?
04:37:19 <tswett> All non-standard models of the natural numbers?
04:43:44 <kmc> somebody's mom?
04:49:49 <coppro> shachaf: the busy beaver function?
04:50:23 <Slereah> Busy beaver is very computable
04:51:07 <coppro> suppose you had a TM which could compute busy beaver
04:51:46 <coppro> then you could create a machine which took as input another machine, determined its size, and ran it for BB(n) steps; if it halts, then it accepts, otherwise it fails.
04:51:51 <coppro> then you've solved the halting problem
04:53:21 <kmc> in fact this demonstrates that any upper bound for BB(n) is uncomputable
04:53:31 <kmc> so we can say that it grows faster than any computable function
04:53:33 <kmc> which is kinda crazy
04:54:15 <Bike> so, how are exact values (for BB on really simple machines) known?
04:54:28 <Bike> or are those just lower bounds?
04:54:36 <kmc> some of them are exact
04:55:05 <kmc> you enumerate all the different turing machines of that size and prove that they halt or don't
04:55:23 <Bike> isn't that a procedure, then?
04:55:47 <kmc> no because you can search for larger and larger proofs forever
04:56:26 <kmc> that is, given the size of the machine, you have no computable bound on the size of a proof that it halts or doesn't
04:56:40 <coppro> Given a fixed n, you can compute BB up to n
04:56:49 <coppro> but no turing machine can compute BB for arbitrary n
04:57:21 <Bike> well, that's a bit clearer. The whole thing always sort of confused me.
04:57:46 <Bike> of course I have a book with a graph of the kolmogorov complexity of numbers as a function, maybe I should focus on that confusingness first.
05:03:48 <kmc> ohhh i think there is something deeper going on here
05:04:45 <kmc> say i have a turing machine M. in one thread i run M, and in another thread I enumerate all possible proofs that M doesn't halt, and check them one by one
05:04:52 <kmc> why doesn't this solve the halting problem?
05:04:55 <kmc> i think the answer is
05:05:27 <kmc> for any (r.e.) axiomatic system of talking about turing machines, there is some machine which doesn't halt, such that you can't prove it doesn't halt within your system
05:05:36 <kmc> basically by gödel's incompleteness theorem
05:06:12 <kmc> (or else the system is inconsistent, but in that case it doesn't agree with the meta-theoretic definition of "halt" and so is useless)
05:06:42 <coppro> How do you enumerate the possible proofs that M doesn't halt?
05:07:24 <ion> [minBound..]
05:07:25 <kmc> the proofs are just strings in some formal system; you can enumerate strings easily enough
05:08:08 <coppro> But there are infinite such proofs
05:08:43 <kmc> sure, but they are recursively enumerable
05:08:54 <coppro> yeah, but how do you know your system will halt?
05:09:07 <kmc> because every machine either halts or doesn't (on a given input)
05:09:14 <kmc> so either there exists a computation history showing it to halt
05:09:19 <kmc> or there exists a finite proof that it doesn't
05:09:27 <kmc> but it's the second statement which is wrong
05:09:44 <kmc> because even though the "proof exists" informally, you can't nail it down in any particular formal system
05:09:54 <kmc> whichever formal system you choose, some machine will escape you
05:09:56 <pikhq> coppro: Either the machine M halts, or the search for a proof that M doesn't halt, halts.
05:09:58 <coppro> example: write a TM which enumerates theorems of ZFC and terminates when it finds a proof or disproof of CH
05:10:16 <pikhq> Except that by Gödel's incompleteness theorem, the second is not necessarily the case.
05:10:20 <pikhq> Yes, you get the idea.
05:10:46 <kmc> yeah, i'm not sure if that is the same thing or different
05:10:47 <Bike> so any r.e. axiomatic system has turing machine halting proofs independent of it?
05:10:48 <coppro> err, sorry, a proof of CH
05:11:14 <pikhq> Bike: Seems like it.
05:11:19 <coppro> hmm... actually, that doesn't quite work
05:11:36 <coppro> but yeah, you can find a TM for which halting is independent of your axiom system
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05:13:41 <Bike> http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=710 maybe this is what I'm thinking of
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05:34:09 <kmc> do you know which form of transit is still operating well in New York? boats!
05:34:21 <kmc> even the IKEA boat is already back in service
05:34:51 <Bike> ikea has a boat?
05:36:26 <kmc> the ikea in NYC is somewhat inconvenient by bus or train
05:36:31 <kmc> but it's right on the water
05:36:45 <kmc> so they run a free shuttle boat
05:37:38 <Bike> good to have cheap furniture during the apocalypse
05:38:30 <kmc> except then people started using it for commutes and whatever
05:38:37 <kmc> so now it's $5 to go to IKEA, but you get a $5 gift card
05:38:43 <kmc> and you have to show a receipt on the way back
05:39:00 <kmc> this is like the express buses to atlantic city that make you buy casino chips with your bus ticket
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08:21:36 <shubshub> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Poison <-- My new programming language
08:22:52 <shubshub> I finished making my new programming language (Sort of enough for release)
08:23:11 <shubshub> Just adding a few more things before I release 1.1
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08:28:20 <nooga> is this a joke shubshub
08:28:57 <Jafet> Dude, mediafire is legit
08:31:45 <nooga> shubshub: couldn't you just paste help contents onto the wiki page?
08:34:37 <shubshub> Alright fine ill post help on wiki page
08:42:56 <nooga> you're supposed to briefly explain what the language is
08:56:48 <shubshub> Updated along with help on wiki page
08:56:49 <shubshub> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Poison
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09:18:39 <nooga> not sure if troll or just a beginner ;o
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09:22:32 <nooga> read other entries, like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unlambda , http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge
09:22:40 <nooga> and then read yours again
09:26:58 <nooga> it's not only the description
09:27:12 <nooga> what makes your language interesting?
09:31:49 <shubshub> the fact that it uses smasller commands]
09:44:01 <nooga> smaller than what?
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09:47:52 <nooga> what's the execution model?
09:53:44 <shubshub> What do u mean by execution model
09:59:28 <fizzie> Just out of curiosity, but did you actually write if x == 'a' or x == 'A': y = str(1); elif x == 'b' or x == 'B': y = str(2); ... elif x == 'z' or x == 'Z': y = str(26)?
10:01:14 <shubshub> im typed up the entire language by hand
10:01:42 <shubshub> anyway how did you get the py file I only posted the pyc file
10:02:38 <fizzie> I decompiled it; to be honest, the urllib.urlretrieve and ['runas', '/user:Administrator', x] parts seen in strings file.pyc made me a bit uncomfortable.
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10:03:39 <ion> Why would you release only the pyc file?
10:03:54 <shubshub> Idk cuz I didnt want it to be Open source
10:04:09 <ion> How is that useful?
10:05:58 <shubshub> I added the runas admin feature for something I was doing at school
10:08:35 <shubshub> i am also the creator of another language called !!!Batch and also NumericBatch both of which are very unstable
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14:22:35 <ion> A Slower Speed of Light Official Trailer — MIT Game Lab http://youtu.be/uu7jA8EHi_0
14:26:49 -!- elliott has joined.
14:31:14 <kmc> preved medved
14:32:40 -!- copumpkin has joined.
14:33:46 <elliott> @ask monqy One day I was Bored and Decided to learn how to program in python so I went and watched some youtube videos however I didn't just want to program in Python I wanted to form my own language perhaps an easier No wait more simplistic version of Python with smaller command names And easier programming so here it is The Poison Programming Language
14:34:30 -!- atriq has joined.
14:34:48 <lambdabot> atriq: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
14:35:04 <ion> Verily indeed indubitably.
14:35:17 <kmc> Oh Wow it's Shubshub
14:35:20 <atriq> I had seen all those messages before
14:35:39 <elliott> should i make poison the featured language
14:36:02 <atriq> elliott, I did see them and I downloaded Brogue and I am playing it RIGHT NOW
14:36:05 <atriq> Well, not right now
14:36:08 <atriq> But I have it open
14:36:24 <ion> clear() - Clear the command line screen on a Linux Computer
14:36:26 <ion> cls() - Clear the command line screen on a Windows Computer
14:36:51 <fizzie> ion: def clear(): os.system('clear') def cls(): os.system('cls')
14:36:53 <atriq> ion, a specific Linux Computer, or just any
14:37:35 <Jafet> We need languages that let us clear other people's screens
14:37:46 <fizzie> The mathes eqaution commands just print the result; now I need to manually copy the intermediate result to add three numbers. :/
14:38:08 <elliott> fizzie: sounds better than mathematica
14:39:00 <Arc_Koen> elliott: what about http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Ozone#Interp ?
14:39:22 <elliott> Arc_Koen: apparently i said something in 2008 and then didn't do it
14:39:34 <fizzie> elliott: Yeah, I hate that I have to write 1 + 2 and then Out[1] + 3 to add three numbers there. :/
14:40:52 <ion> 1+2 ≈ FileNotFound
14:41:20 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/cCjC look I'm pulling results from the future.
14:42:06 <tswett> forall x: def x(): os.system('x')
14:42:33 <elliott> fizzie: Ohh, right, Out is an array.
14:42:55 <elliott> fizzie: It should automagically recalculate the display of the Out[n]s each time you cause them to change.
14:43:18 <fizzie> I suppose the gooey version can do some stuff like that.
14:43:27 <Arc_Koen> I'm trying to implement circlefuck using the circular buffer module I wrote some time ago but I need two pointers to the same buffer and ocaml won't let me do that
14:44:28 <Arc_Koen> if I try including the module and adding functions to it, they don't work because they're not allowed to access the internal structure
14:47:16 <ion> 1.9.2p318 :001 > def method_missing(cmd, *args) system(cmd.to_s, *args) end; echo "foo"
14:47:54 <kmc> http://amoffat.github.com/sh/ is like that
14:47:56 <kmc> and is wonderful
14:48:29 <elliott> Arc_Koen: have you considered changing the module
14:48:43 <Arc_Koen> well, yes, I could rewrite it all
14:48:45 <ion> self = sys.modules[__name__]
14:48:46 <ion> sys.modules[__name__] = SelfWrapper(self)
14:48:48 <ion> I like the kluge.
14:48:57 <Arc_Koen> but is that really a good idea?
14:49:14 <Arc_Koen> my first idea was to add a function "shallow copy" or something to it
14:49:30 <Arc_Koen> but it causes problem if you try to pop an item that's the front item from a copy
14:49:51 <ion> A European shallow or an African shallow?
14:49:52 <elliott> Arc_Koen: all i hear is yet more arguments against mutable state :p
14:50:27 <Arc_Koen> do you have any idea to avoid using them?
14:51:30 <elliott> well presumably you could use a purely-functional data structure instead... maybe for circular things that's a bit of a pain though, iirc Okasaki's /Purely Functional Data Structures/ extends the language with basic lazy values for things like that
14:51:45 <elliott> (though I suppose you could implement them easily as (() -> a) if you're not worried about performance)
14:52:02 <elliott> that said there is probably some solution to your problem that does not involve rewriting your program
14:52:07 <elliott> but I don't know OCaml, so who knows what it is
14:52:18 <atriq> When I was on holiday I wrote a Hunt the Wumpus clone
14:52:24 <kmc> you can implement them as (() -> a) with good performance if you can close over a mutable cell
14:52:47 <elliott> I guess that is nicer than exposing the mutable cell in the type
14:53:04 <Jafet> You can write it in fucking C
14:53:07 <kmc> <3 functional imperative programming
14:53:17 <kmc> i would like to learn Fucking C
14:53:21 <Jafet> Fucking C is like system F, except you're forced to be more explicit.
14:53:21 <kmc> is there a relevant ISO standard
14:53:21 <atriq> Jafet, how is fucking C different from regular C?
14:53:26 <kmc> ISO-Fucking-9899
14:53:31 <Arc_Koen> what is it you call (() -> a)?
14:53:37 <kmc> Arc_Koen: The Aristocrats
14:53:39 <Arc_Koen> replacing the data structure with a function?
14:53:53 <elliott> Arc_Koen: I guess it is (unit -> a) in OCaml
14:53:58 <elliott> or I guess (unit -> 'a) even
14:53:59 <atriq> Arc_Koen, I think it's thunking, but everyone's gonna shout at me because I'm wrong
14:54:08 <elliott> I think it's thunking about thinking
14:54:52 <elliott> Arc_Koen: anyway I was just talking about the implementation of a simple lazy value
14:55:07 <elliott> to use for implementing something circular-ish in a purely-functional manner
14:55:13 <elliott> though I suppose a circular buffer could work as a zipper or something instead
14:55:19 <Arc_Koen> well I still have no idea what you mean
14:55:35 <Arc_Koen> a zipper would be fine if there weren't two iterators
14:56:25 <atriq> data BiZipper a = BiZipper [a] a [a] (Maybe a) [a]?
14:56:56 <atriq> Yes, that is the worst
14:57:17 <Arc_Koen> is Maybe a constructor similar to ocaml's None / Some option type?
14:57:42 <atriq> data Maybe a = Nothing | Just a
14:57:58 <Arc_Koen> type 'a option = None | Some of 'a
14:58:29 <atriq> elliott, there are at least three birthday parties in Hexham tomorrow. What's the word on the street?
14:59:30 <atriq> One of them's a sort of surprise party for me
14:59:34 <atriq> And I want to know more details
14:59:45 <atriq> Except I don't actually
14:59:59 <elliott> if there is ever word on the street i know literally none of it
15:00:14 <elliott> i may, in fact, be the single worst person in hexham to ask about the word on the street
15:00:42 <fizzie> elliott: Are you 'in' in the Hexham party scene, though?
15:01:27 <elliott> fizzie: what is the opposite of in these days
15:02:55 <quintopia> start your own private party scene. then everyone else will be out and you will be in
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15:09:47 <ion> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rats_with_bushy_tails
15:16:09 <atriq> A mysterious package arrived for me when I was in Ibiza
15:16:18 <atriq> I have to go down to the post office depot thing to pick it up
15:20:12 <kmc> how was Ibiza?
15:22:31 <kmc> that sucks
15:25:16 <elliott> kmc: you know what else sucks?
15:26:46 <ion> ∀x. x sucks
15:27:20 <Jafet> PHP used to be a thing, but is it still a thing?
15:27:27 <coppro> it is sadly still a thing
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15:34:40 <HackEgo> girafee: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:37:02 <atriq> You know, we might be able to do quicker welcome messages if we didn't rely on a bot starting up a linux environment on one of Gregor's computers every time
15:37:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I confused immersion with orientation today and I think I made a complete tit of myself :(
15:38:18 <kmc> atriq: that reminds me of boltzmann brains
15:38:34 <atriq> kmc, that means nothing to me
15:38:47 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, what's your sexual immersion
15:39:14 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: don't you always make a complete tit of yourself
15:39:22 <atriq> elliott, no, that's me
15:39:59 <Phantom_Hoover> (Pedant's note, I couldn't be bothered doing that properly.)
15:40:54 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, no, sometimes cauchy sequences on the tit don't converge.
15:41:31 <Jafet> You just need to apply the squeeze test
15:54:12 <kmc> atriq: what did you do in Ibiza?
15:54:37 <atriq> It was too windy to go to the beach and the wrong part of the island to party
15:55:05 <kmc> well... that sucks
15:55:11 <atriq> Anyone want to see how much I suck at programming?
16:08:27 <kmc> apparently not
16:12:19 <atriq> It's time to GET A PACKAGE
16:12:27 <atriq> http://hpaste.org/77161
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16:17:22 <Arc_Koen> the monster is called a wumpus
16:17:30 <Arc_Koen> and where are the bats and the pits?
16:18:42 <Arc_Koen> also I don't know if that's how it worked with the original game, but I believe it's better if the room numbers are attributed randomly
16:18:56 <Arc_Koen> so that when you start you don't already know what leads where
16:20:02 <Arc_Koen> and last thing my comments are probably irrelevant as I can't read haskell
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16:46:31 <kmc> http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity1136.html
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17:04:33 <elliott> atriq: don't use data.array it sucks
17:09:01 <atriq> And also give thoughts on the mysterious package I recieved
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17:11:02 <coppro> atriq: try importing it
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17:11:19 <atriq> I don't know what modules it contains!
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17:14:41 <atriq> elliott, what would you suggest to replace it?
17:15:18 <elliott> atriq: either a function, vector (from the vector package), or a map/hashmap
17:15:28 <atriq> I'd go for a function in this case
17:16:07 <elliott> you should randomise the layout tho
17:18:27 * ion randomizes elliott’s layout.
17:19:49 <elliott> atriq: btw why are you using makeLensesFor
17:19:52 <elliott> rather than makeLenses or makeClassy
17:20:22 <atriq> I didn't know how they named them
17:21:51 <elliott> atriq: they expect your fields to be named _foo and produce a lens named foo
17:22:43 <atriq> That isn't quite what I have
17:22:55 <atriq> I have fields named foo and lenses named foo_
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17:34:18 <atriq> Okay, I've changed it
17:38:12 <atriq> It now uses functions instead of arrays, and makeLenses instead of makeLensesFor
17:38:47 <elliott> ok now split that one gigantic definition you have into like five
17:40:12 <atriq> That's not gigantic
17:40:16 <atriq> That's merely stupidly big
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17:40:32 <atriq> It's less than 100 lines
17:40:35 <atriq> Ergo, not gigantic
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18:06:20 <atriq> Wow, I've just been retweeted by an Internet not actually celebrity
18:06:29 <atriq> Webcomic author Dan Shive
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18:55:31 <Sgeo|web> elliott, I crossed a shachaf. Am I alive?
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18:59:29 <elliott> kmc: what does this mean: mount: /my/image/im/trying/to/loop/mount.img failed to setup loop device: No such file or directory
19:01:25 <kmc> maybe you have no loopback devices for some reason
19:01:37 <atriq> Remember that time I installed pacman on my computer
19:02:01 <elliott> apparently that is true kmc!
19:02:07 <elliott> why don't i have a loopback device
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19:02:16 <kmc> do you have a normal udev
19:02:42 <elliott> with systemd, which I don't think matters?
19:02:49 <kmc> well i don't know then :/
19:03:05 <elliott> all i know is systemd and udev merged
19:03:11 <elliott> so now i don't actually have a udev package
19:04:01 <kmc> keeping up with how linux systems work is hard
19:04:18 <elliott> kmc: well it's more that they just merged the packages upstream apparently
19:04:24 <elliott> and it's still buildable separately or something
19:05:49 <elliott> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2012-August/006066.html
19:06:01 <elliott> apparently that means basically "you can use udev without systemd in the future but we're not going to make it any better"
19:09:34 <elliott> kmc: actually maybe i do have a loopback device or something
19:09:40 <elliott> i do have the loop module loaded at least
19:12:51 <elliott> open("/dev/loop-control", O_RDWR) = -1 ENODEV (No such device)
19:12:59 <elliott> $ ls -lh /dev/loop-control
19:12:59 <elliott> crw------- 1 root root 10, 237 Nov 2 14:25 /dev/loop-control
19:14:05 <kmc> oh probably you just don't have loop.ko loaded
19:14:15 <elliott> kmc: i've done sudo modprobe loop about 10 times
19:14:23 <elliott> https://gist.github.com/3397886 apparently this person has the same issue on the same OS three months ago
19:14:25 <kmc> well maybe it's fucked somehow
19:14:51 <elliott> well i am sure it is fucked
19:14:59 <kmc> anything in dmesg?
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19:16:54 <elliott> $ echo hi | sudo tee /dev/loop-control
19:16:54 <elliott> [sudo] password for elliott:
19:16:54 <elliott> tee: /dev/loop-control: No such device
19:16:59 <elliott> so loop-control exists as a device
19:17:09 <elliott> so i guess the problem is 10, 237 doesn't identify a valid decide
19:17:14 <kmc> it's a file but there's no device hooked up to it in the kernel
19:17:19 <kmc> that is the mystery
19:18:46 <elliott> so modprobe loop didn't work i guess
19:18:48 <elliott> so why didn't it complain??
19:19:10 <elliott> sudo modprobe -v sdlfkjsdfkl
19:19:19 <elliott> what is going onnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
19:20:49 <fizzie> Maybe your system has deprecated the loop device completely, in favour of dm-loop?
19:21:09 <elliott> fizzie: OK, I'm willing to accept that... but why is modprobe fucked?
19:21:15 <elliott> (and how would I get dm-loop working)
19:21:42 <fizzie> I don't even know if dm-loop ever went anywhere, I just remember there was one once.
19:22:04 <elliott> dm-loop is lvm only from the looks of it?
19:23:36 <elliott> "sudo modprobe -v -n dosfjsdofjoidsf" doesn't even give any messages.
19:23:39 <fizzie> I think grep loop /proc/devices should at least definitely say if the device is there.
19:23:46 <elliott> Even "modprobe foo" as non-root doesn't give me any messages.
19:24:02 <elliott> fizzie: That outputs nothing, right.
19:24:15 <elliott> It seems fairly obvious I need to load loop... so the problem is just that modprobe is completely broken??
19:24:24 <fizzie> Maybe they deprecated modutils and it's just a dummy stub. :p
19:24:39 <elliott> Well it responds to --help and everything.
19:25:08 <fizzie> $ sudo modprobe -v -n dosfjsdofjoidsf
19:25:08 <fizzie> FATAL: Module dosfjsdofjoidsf not found.
19:25:30 <fizzie> Your system has EVERY MODULE, that's why they all work.
19:26:03 <fizzie> "module-init-tools version 3.16".
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19:26:57 <elliott> Conflicts With : module-init-tools
19:26:57 <elliott> Replaces : module-init-tools
19:27:00 <elliott> fizzie: What's going on? :(
19:27:14 <fizzie> It must be some kinda thing.
19:28:04 <elliott> With module-init-tools being declared a dead project by its current maintainer, a new project has stepped up to take its place: kmod. This is intended to be a drop-in replacement, though deprecated functionality in module-init-tools has not been reimplemented.
19:28:58 <elliott> While setting up a new VPS with Wheezy under a module-less kernel
19:28:58 <elliott> (everything compiled-in) I've noticed that kmod's modprobe silently
19:28:58 <elliott> returns 1 with no error message printed, no matter if you tell it
19:28:58 <elliott> to load or unload a module.
19:29:19 <elliott> So "modprobe loop" is, in fact, failing.
19:29:56 <fizzie> Apparently things like "diagnostics" and "any messages" are part of the deprecated functionality they've not reimplemented.
19:30:33 <elliott> After a bit more testing using a more "standard" Debian install
19:30:33 <elliott> (barebones system from current netinst with Debian standard kernel
19:30:33 <elliott> 3.2.0-3-686-pae) I've found out that this behavior is caused by lack
19:30:33 <elliott> of /lib/modules/$(uname -r)/modules.alias.bin .
19:30:49 <kmc> fucking linux kids
19:30:57 <kmc> gotta reimplement the whole system from scratch every few years
19:31:05 <kmc> because clearly the old authors were idiots and that's why nothing works
19:31:18 <kmc> it couldn't be that nothing works because it's all reimplemented from scratch every few years
19:31:27 <fizzie> Do you have a loop.ko in there though?
19:31:30 <kmc> this reminds me of uni computing clubs actually
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19:31:35 <kmc> probably no coincidence
19:31:50 <elliott> fizzie: Well, um, it's a binary file.
19:31:53 <elliott> I don't know how to check.
19:32:09 <elliott> I guess look at modules.alias?
19:32:11 <fizzie> I mean, in the module dir.
19:32:21 <elliott> fizzie: Oh, I have loop.ko.gz, yes.
19:32:22 <elliott> alias devname:loop-control loop
19:32:22 <elliott> alias char-major-10-237 loop
19:32:22 <elliott> alias block-major-7-* loop
19:32:28 <elliott> That's what modules.alias has.
19:32:48 <elliott> kmc: it's linux... the reason usually is because the old authors were idiots
19:33:07 <fizzie> That sounds suspiciously reasonable. It may be lulling you to a false sense of security.
19:33:46 <elliott> fizzie: I'm going to have so strace modprobe, aren't I :(
19:34:24 <fizzie> There weren't any of these .bin files when I last wondered about modules, around the 2.4.x series or something. There was just one ascii .dep file for modprobe and that was about it.
19:34:34 <elliott> open("/lib/modules/3.6.4-1-ck/modules.dep.bin", O_RDONLY|O_CLOEXEC) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)
19:34:34 <elliott> open("/lib/modules/3.6.4-1-ck/modules.dep.bin", O_RDONLY|O_CLOEXEC) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)
19:34:34 <elliott> open("/lib/modules/3.6.4-1-ck/modules.alias.bin", O_RDONLY|O_CLOEXEC) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)
19:34:39 <elliott> OK, it's upset that those don't exist.
19:34:57 <elliott> fizzie: Guess why it's broken? Hint: It's a really dumb reason and I feel like an idiot.
19:35:36 <elliott> 3.6.4-1-ARCH 3.6.5-1-ck extramodules-3.6-ARCH extramodules-3.6-ck
19:36:10 <fizzie> I see some different numbers.
19:36:17 <elliott> The reason is I upgraded my kernel and it removed the old one and I haven't rebooted yet. :(
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19:36:48 <fizzie> It's a Linux system, you should always try rebooting first, it usually fixes all the problems.
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19:38:54 <elliott> Okay, now it gives error messages.
19:38:59 <elliott> And works when it loads loop.
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19:43:54 <elliott> 03:44:20: <pikhq> kmc: You may also enjoy DS9. There might be a modicum of enjoyment from TOS and TAS. VOY and ENT will make you want to drink all the alcohol.
19:43:59 <elliott> pikhq: aw c'mon, voyager is hilarious
19:44:09 <kmc> so is being very drunk
19:44:59 <elliott> kmc: I suspect the experiences are comparable
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19:55:19 <kmc> http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0048331
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20:04:16 <elliott> shubshub: your language is really bad
20:04:42 <elliott> i have no idea how to articulate the reasons
20:06:45 <ion> Is shubshub the alter ego of someone here?
20:07:09 -!- shubshub has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:07:11 <kmc> i didn't really look at it
20:07:16 <elliott> he's the alter ego of shubshub
20:07:18 -!- shubshub has joined.
20:07:25 <elliott> kmc: here http://esolangs.org/wiki/Poison
20:08:15 <kmc> this is terrible
20:08:34 <kmc> why do the built-in functions have terrible short names
20:08:49 <kmc> also why do you need a different function to clear the screen on linux vs windows
20:08:53 <kmc> shouldn't the language hide that detail
20:09:06 <ion> Apparently the function to Perform a Mathes eqaution doesn’t return the result, it prints it. So you can’t compute a Mathes eqaution such as 2+3*4 with it.
20:09:23 <ion> And it’s only distributed as a .pyc file, no source.
20:09:47 <kmc> <shubshub> to make it easier
20:09:48 <elliott> ion: that's a maths equation, not a Mathes eqaution
20:09:58 <elliott> don't you know about famous Mathesamatician John Mathes
20:10:06 <kmc> are you one of those people who believes the difficulty of programming is proportional to the number of keys you have to push?
20:10:36 <ion> elliott: I only know about Imhotep.
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20:11:58 <ion> <fizzie> Just out of curiosity, but did you actually write if x == 'a' or x == 'A': y = str(1); elif x == 'b' or x == 'B': y = str(2); ... elif x == 'z' or x == 'Z': y = str(26)?
20:12:03 <ion> <shubshub> yes
20:12:07 <ion> <shubshub> im typed up the entire language by hand
20:12:23 <pikhq> ion: If Jean stands exactly one nautical mile away from Lord Scotland, how tall is Imhotep?
20:13:05 <ion> pikhq: I dare not compute that, lest i suffer the Helvetica scenario.
20:13:19 <elliott> <shubshub> can u please stop quoting me
20:13:34 <pikhq> And there's no calcium involved, so no fear of Helvetica.
20:13:35 <ion> u: Please stop quoting shubshub.
20:13:53 <ion> freenode -- u: No such nick/channel
20:15:28 <ion> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Poison&oldid=32167
20:16:01 <ion> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Poison&oldid=32171 As you can see Poison takes less coding to do Hello World :D
20:17:17 <elliott> you realise you wrote that sentence not ion right
20:18:02 <ion> Why did you switch from Ruby to Python in the middle of implementing Poison?
20:18:19 <shubshub> Cuz I didnt like ruby that much
20:18:19 <ion> And why does the Python implementation not have hgWorld("True")?
20:18:52 <ion> And what does the g stand for?
20:20:08 <shubshub> hgWorld stands for Hello/Goodbye World
20:20:23 <elliott> ok i take it back poison is my favourite language
20:21:23 <Bike> does hgWorld("False") print "Goodbye World !"?
20:21:33 <elliott> shubshub: well why did you make it
20:21:37 <hagb4rd> hello, goodbye, world. it's very minimalistic.. though it may be not TC
20:21:39 <shubshub> no but I Believe hgWorld("False") did
20:21:40 <elliott> some questions nobody can answer
20:21:56 <elliott> shubshub: you literally just said the exact same thing as Bike
20:22:12 <shubshub> oh sorry i didnt read it properly
20:22:30 <ion> elliott: He describes why he made it in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Poison
20:22:49 <elliott> ion: i wasn't counting that
20:24:52 <kmc> what about hgWorld(True) and hgWorld(False) though
20:24:54 <kmc> what do those print
20:25:05 <ion> And how about hgWorld("Foo")?
20:27:38 <hagb4rd> ok.but i miss the two_power_eight(bool use_division_instead_of_power) function
20:45:04 <shubshub> Maybe I should redo my language with better commands or something
20:45:09 <hagb4rd> i strongly recommend removing hoovers blog entry from the topic. we should encourage folks with a positive attitude. show them where to look among the garbage and the flowers
20:45:24 <elliott> that's not even Phantom_Hoover's blog post
20:46:20 <elliott> (that blog entry is a joke)
20:47:33 <hagb4rd> really? sry i forgo to take my meads
20:52:17 <ion> shubshub: It’s perfect the way it is.
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21:47:14 <elliott> `welcome noooooooooooooooooooooodl
21:47:17 <HackEgo> noooooooooooooooooooooodl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:47:37 <elliott> `welcome nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooodl
21:47:41 <HackEgo> nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooodl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:47:44 <elliott> i dont think you feel sufficiently welcomed yet
21:47:49 <elliott> `WELCOME NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODL
21:47:52 <HackEgo> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODL: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
21:48:37 <nooodl> "THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA"?????
21:49:25 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esotericism
21:49:26 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
21:49:30 <Gregor> Astral projection, crystal healing, the Bible, you know.
21:49:33 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
21:49:55 <elliott> `WELCOME NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODL
21:49:58 <HackEgo> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODL: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
21:50:05 <pikhq> Though if you make an astral projection-based programming language, this is probably the appropriate place.
21:50:16 <nooodl> man, do you guys seriously get visited by "that kind" of people often enough for that to be in the welcome message
21:50:34 <elliott> `WELCOME NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODL
21:50:35 <pikhq> nooodl: It's not *exceptionally* common, but it's sufficiently common that it's necessary, yes.
21:50:37 <HackEgo> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODL: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI:
21:50:40 <Gregor> elliott: FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP
21:50:43 <elliott> nooodl: do you feel welcome yet asshole
21:50:47 <elliott> Gregor: it's ok i know nooodl
21:50:58 <Gregor> For everyone ELSE'S sake X-D
21:51:02 <ion> `ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ nooodl
21:51:03 <elliott> those people dont have souls
21:51:03 <shachaf> Twist: nooodl *is* "that kind" of people.
21:51:05 <HackEgo> ＮＯＯＯＤＬ： ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ， ＣＨＥＣＫ ＯＵＴ ＯＵＲ ＷＩＫＩ： ＨＴＴＰ：／／ＥＳＯＬＡＮＧＳ
21:51:28 <shachaf> elliott: lambdabot has lens now
21:51:38 <Gregor> We should buy the TLD “esolangs” so that http://esolangs will work.
21:51:56 <ion> We should buy the protocol “esolangs” so that esolangs: will work.
21:52:18 <olsner> esolang:/esolang/esolang/esolang?esolang#esolang
21:52:25 <shachaf> how much does a protocol cost
21:52:32 <nooodl> host an irc server on there too
21:52:47 <Bike> however much it takes to bribe browser developers
21:53:23 <Gregor> We should build our own Internet.
21:53:29 <Gregor> With booze and hookers and esolangs.
21:53:30 <pikhq> nooodl: エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）
21:55:05 <Gregor> `learn wercome エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）
21:56:15 <Gregor> `run echo -e '#!/usr/bin/perl -w\nif (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? wercome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "wercome"; }' > bin/wercome; chmod a+x bin/wercome
21:56:24 <HackEgo> pikhq: wercome エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）
21:56:57 <Gregor> `run echo 'エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）' > learndb/wercome
21:56:59 <HackEgo> bash: learndb/wercome: No such file or directory
21:57:23 <Gregor> `run echo 'エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）' > wisdom/wercome
21:57:34 <HackEgo> pikhq: エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）
21:57:43 <Gregor> That took more effort than it deserved X-D
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22:02:11 <elliott> <shachaf> elliott: lambdabot has lens now
22:02:15 <elliott> doesnt lens use a ton of common names
22:07:53 <shachaf> > ("hello","world") % zipper % down _1 % fromWithin traverse % focus .~ 'J' % rightmost % focus .~ 'y' % rezip
22:08:15 <olsner> lambdabot should just import every single package on hackage
22:08:36 <elliott> so how does this gel with edwardk updating lens every 2 days
22:08:40 <elliott> and lambdabot being updated every 0
22:08:45 <kmc> they should patch GHC so that if there's a name conflict, it picks the one with the most complicated type
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22:09:06 <shachaf> elliott: I think you mean me updating lens every 2 days.
22:09:09 <shachaf> elliott: https://github.com/ekmett/lens/graphs/impact
22:09:12 <nooodl> `learn bonvenon Bonvenon al la internacia centro por la desegno kaj ellaso de esoteraj programlingvoj! Por pli da informado, vizitu la Viki-o: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Por la alia speco de esotero, iru al #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
22:09:21 <kmc> esperanto?
22:09:39 <shachaf> Um, shouldn't we have tervetuloa?
22:09:47 <shachaf> And however you say "welcome" in Hexhammish.
22:09:58 <kmc> esperanto is the "pointless brainfuck derivative" of constructed languages
22:10:07 <ion> What’s Lojban?
22:10:19 <kmc> esperanto just seems pointless
22:10:25 <kmc> there are already so many romance languages
22:10:29 <kmc> they're pretty regular and easy to learn
22:10:35 <kmc> and people actually use them
22:10:42 <lambdabot> forall s a t b. s -> Getting a s t a b -> a
22:10:53 <nooodl> lojban is binary lambda calculus
22:10:53 <elliott> where does it ever get specialised to Mutator
22:10:56 <elliott> where does it ever get specialised to Mutator
22:11:01 <elliott> so that it appears in errors
22:11:03 <shachaf> elliott: ^. doesn't use Mutator
22:11:08 <ion> kmc: But there are too many of them. Let’s make one that everyone can use! I’m sure everyone will switch to that one.
22:11:11 <lambdabot> forall s (m :: * -> *) a e. (Integral e, Num a, MonadState s m) => SimpleSetting s a -> e -> m ()
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22:11:20 <kmc> i guess esperanto makes more sense in the 19th century context where all of europe hates each other and is super proud of their own shitty local things
22:11:24 <shachaf> SimpleSetting uses Mutator
22:11:24 <elliott> so where does Mutator come into play
22:11:29 <elliott> type SimpleSetting s a = Setting s s a a
22:11:36 <shachaf> type Setting s t a b = (a -> Mutator b) -> s -> Mutator t
22:11:40 <shachaf> type Setter s t a b = forall (f :: * -> *). Settable f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t
22:11:41 <elliott> type Setting s t a b = (a -> Mutator b) -> s -> Mutator t
22:11:43 <kmc> it's a "politically neutral language that transcends nationality"
22:12:18 <shachaf> elliott: Do you like Bazaar?
22:12:35 <kmc> i want a language that transcends rationality
22:12:45 <kmc> i want a god that stays dead, not plays dead
22:13:33 <zzo38> kmc: Can you do those things?
22:13:40 <kmc> I, even I, can play dead
22:14:04 <shachaf> But can you rationalize transcendentals?
22:14:22 <ion> Time to gette some sleepe.
22:14:45 <shachaf> elliott: Well, there was a strictness bug in holesOf.
22:14:57 <shachaf> But can you make it more safe?!
22:15:17 <shachaf> holesOf :: LensLike (Bazaar a a) s t a a -> s -> [Context a a t]
22:15:17 <shachaf> holesOf l a = f (ins b) (outs b) where b = l sell a f [] _ = [] f (x:xs) g = Context (g . (:xs)) x : f xs (g . (x:))
22:15:28 <shachaf> ins :: Bazaar a b t -> [a]
22:15:28 <shachaf> ins (Bazaar m) = getConst (m (Const . return))
22:15:34 <shachaf> outs :: Bazaar a a t -> [a] -> t
22:15:34 <shachaf> outs (Bazaar m) = evalState $ m $ \c -> state $ \cs -> case cs of [] -> (c,[]) (d:ds) -> (d,ds)
22:15:40 <olsner> `learn välkommen Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för design och distribution av esoteriska programspråk! För mer information, se vår wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på irc.dal.net.)
22:15:55 <shachaf> elliott: It's using lists!
22:16:35 <shachaf> unsafePartsOf :: LensLike (Bazaar a b) s t a b -> Lens s t [a] [b]
22:16:35 <shachaf> unsafePartsOf l f a = unsafeOuts b <$> f (ins b) where b = l sell a
22:16:38 <shachaf> unsafeOuts :: Bazaar a b t -> [b] -> t
22:16:39 <shachaf> unsafeOuts (Bazaar m) = evalState (m $ \_ -> state unsafeUncons)
22:16:50 <shachaf> The point is it's ugly. :-(
22:18:20 <elliott> newtype Bazaar a b t = Bazaar { _runBazaar :: forall f. Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> f t }
22:18:27 <elliott> problem if anything is in the functions using it
22:19:07 <shachaf> The *problem* is that there's no type safety, elliott!
22:19:45 <elliott> i don't see how there's no type safety
22:20:53 <shachaf> Well, it's using regular lists, so how can you guarantee that it'll have the same number of elements?
22:21:50 <shachaf> data Bazaar a b t = forall n : Nat. Bazaar ((n -> b) -> t) (n -> a)
22:21:59 <zzo38> I have written some things on some paper I think there is some ways to make something like it having list of same number of elements, depending what you are doing with it there is the way.
22:24:54 <elliott> shachaf: but whats wrong with bazaar's definition
22:25:13 <shachaf> Nothing's wrong with *Bazaar*.
22:25:18 <shachaf> Just the functions that are using it.
22:25:20 <zzo38> Is that the right and left bazaar? What is it?
22:25:35 <shachaf> zzo38: What's a left and right bazaar?
22:26:00 <elliott> shachaf: so change the functions, not bazaar
22:26:11 <shachaf> elliott: I never said anything about changing Bazaar.
22:26:22 <elliott> just define your own f that works as both Const and State
22:26:32 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know, it is why I asked.
22:26:58 <shachaf> kmc: Can you believe there was once a time when you cared about crazy types like that?
22:27:17 <zzo38> But I thought it was something like, newtype Bazaar a b t = Bazaar { _runBazaar :: forall f. Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> f t } being the right bazaar and data Bazaar a b t = forall n : Nat. Bazaar ((n -> b) -> t) (n -> a) being the left bazaar, or something like that.
22:28:06 <elliott> shachaf: well there's such a thing as applicative product....
22:28:16 <shachaf> zzo38: Those are isomorphic.
22:28:42 <elliott> shachaf: so just use product of const and state?
22:28:45 <shachaf> data Bazaar a b t = forall n : Nat. Bazaar ((Fin n -> b) -> t) (Fin n -> a)
22:28:59 <zzo38> shachaf: What is Fin in here?
22:29:08 <elliott> shachaf: Product (Const a) (State b)
22:29:22 <shachaf> zzo38: Fin n = natural numbers < n
22:29:41 <shachaf> data Bazaar a b t = forall n : Nat. Bazaar (Vect n b -> t) (Vect n a)
22:30:53 <zzo38> O so that is how they work, OK.
22:31:11 <shachaf> Sorry for my category error before.
22:31:35 <shachaf> Can you write out the type?
22:31:59 <shubshub> cat("This is a cat program", math(9, 9, "*"))
22:32:47 <elliott> shachaf: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/transformers/0.3.0.0/doc/html/Data-Functor-Product.html
22:33:24 <nooodl> shubshub: this language is the one taped onto python right
22:33:44 <shachaf> I'm not sure how that'll help.
22:33:52 <nooodl> why would you write math(9, 9, "*") instead of 9 * 9
22:33:55 <elliott> well you can combine in and out
22:34:01 <elliott> that's what poison's good at
22:34:16 <monqy> you know what would be really rad
22:34:27 <monqy> !!!python, numeric python, maybe numeric python
22:35:14 <shachaf> monqy: it is spellt bizaar!!!
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22:36:38 <shachaf> monqy: oh drat, you caught me
22:37:33 <shachaf> monqy: data Bazaar a b t = Buy t | Trade (Bazaar a b (b -> t)) a
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22:38:22 <shachaf> data Bazaar a b t = forall n : Nat. Bazaar (Vect n b -> t) (Vect n a)
22:40:25 <shachaf> monqy: Bazaar a b t = forall f. Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> f t -- REAL DEFINITION
22:40:39 <shachaf> newtype Bazaar a b t = Bazaar { _runBazaar :: forall f. Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> f t } -- ACTUAL REAL DEFINITION
22:41:45 <monqy> you seem to be changing your mind a lot !
22:42:06 <shachaf> monqy: it's a medical issue :'(
22:42:23 <nooodl> monqy: A New And Much More Improved Interpreter For !!!Batch has Been developed It is Called !Py!Batch: Download It Here: http://www.mediafire.com/?9zx97k7zl04xk67
22:42:35 <monqy> nooodl: i've seen that
22:42:35 <shachaf> copumpkin: I fixed the holesOf bug!
22:43:20 <shachaf> So you you can use it on infinite lists and what not.
22:44:24 <nooodl> monqy: http://codepad.org/jThI4mnL !!!
22:44:43 <nooodl> line 9 is the !!!Python code
22:44:58 <nooodl> imo "exec e('')" is part of it
22:45:53 <monqy> thhe encoding of the future
22:50:53 <monqy> hey remember that time we all set our names to some variation of "monqy" and said hi like a billion times
22:51:35 <monqy> nobody is innocent
22:51:55 <elliott> that's ok because that means you're not innocent
22:57:12 <olsner> oh, macgyver ran long enough to have episodes taking place after the wallfall
23:13:01 <olsner> hmm, what previously appeared to just be poor attention to keeping up the german accent, might actually be in-character
23:15:09 <zzo38> I made a game with backgammon and chess together http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSbackgammonches
23:31:08 <shachaf> monqy: Is "shachaf" a variation of monqy?
23:33:45 <olsner> shachaf: yes, it's the rot13 of monqy
23:34:38 <shachaf> All we have is this cheap knock-off.
23:38:07 <shachaf> I bet he'll never come back.
23:38:39 <zzo38> How much money do you want to bet?
23:39:06 <shachaf> I'll bet you one Bazaar function.
23:39:16 <shachaf> kmc: Did you read _The Bottle Imp_?
23:39:38 <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:53:38: -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: See you in a few days if I survive).
23:39:38 <shachaf> By Robert Louis Stevenson.
23:39:38 <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:56:19: -!- oerjan has joined #esoteric.
23:39:38 <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:57:09: <oerjan> Just realized I probably shouldn't imply that I expect not to survive hospital :P
23:39:38 <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:57:12: -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
23:39:44 <shachaf> I think it's the only thing of his that I've read.
23:40:06 <elliott> shachaf: Maybe you shouldn't make jokes about oerjan dying.
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23:40:47 <elliott> So it's been almost 20 days.
23:41:18 <elliott> Maybe I should try to get in contact with him.
23:42:12 <olsner> what if he just doesn't want to be here?
23:42:47 <elliott> olsner: that's perfectly possible... I never said I was going to drag him kicking and screaming back to the channel.
23:44:05 <olsner> he wouldn't be kicking and screaming if you chain and gag him first
23:45:20 <elliott> I guess I will just send him an email.
23:46:39 <elliott> "Instead of taking up your entire Gmail window, clicking Compose now opens a smaller window at the bottom of your screen."
23:46:43 <elliott> just what i always wanted.
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23:50:26 <kmc> shachaf: no, what is it?
23:50:46 <kmc> what happened to oerjan?
23:51:07 <shachaf> I remember enjoying it years ago but that was years ago.
23:51:11 <shachaf> Maybe I should read it in English.
23:51:51 <elliott> kmc: last time he was in the channel was:
23:51:54 <elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:53:38: -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: See you in a few days if I survive).
23:51:54 <elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:56:19: -!- oerjan has joined #esoteric.
23:51:54 <elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:57:09: <oerjan> Just realized I probably shouldn't imply that I expect not to survive hospital :P
23:51:54 <elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:57:12: -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
23:52:13 <elliott> probably he's just recovering or whatever
23:52:21 <elliott> but it's getting on close to a month now
23:52:23 <shachaf> elliott: Did you try to get in contact with him?
23:52:38 <elliott> i said that like a few minutes ago
23:52:47 <elliott> it takes time to do things
23:58:18 <elliott> Hmm, he last edited the wiki on 27 October.
23:58:20 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess it doesn't help that from what oerjan's told us he's pretty recluded
23:58:23 <elliott> So... no need to worry, I guess.
23:59:04 <Phantom_Hoover> unless he set up a bot to make it look like he was alive?
23:59:34 <shachaf> I bet he's logreading this right now
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00:00:14 <kmc> well i was wondering why he was in the hospital
00:00:17 <kmc> but maybe nobody knows
00:02:42 <FreeFull> Where did the rest of the text go
00:03:02 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: second
00:03:12 <FreeFull> < elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:53:38: -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: See you in a few days if I survive).
00:03:15 <FreeFull> < elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:56:19: -!- oerjan has joined #esoteric.
00:03:17 <FreeFull> < elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:57:09: <oerjan> Just realized I probably shouldn't imply that I expect not to survive hospital :P
00:03:20 <FreeFull> < elliott> <elliott> 2012-10-11.txt:07:57:12: -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
00:03:40 <Bike> so now somebody should quote you?
00:03:50 <olsner> let's misquote a bit "<oerjan> Just realized I probably shouldn't imply that I expect to survive hospital"
00:04:24 <olsner> let's misquote again "<oerjan> Just realized I probably should clarify that I expect not to survive hospital"
00:04:58 <FreeFull> <oerjan> stick it in my pooper
00:05:15 <olsner> that went south quickly
00:05:39 <FreeFull> <oerjan> just like migratory birds during winter
00:11:35 <olsner> if this channel had rules or anything, that could be considered offensive
00:12:02 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought we'd established he's almost certainly better?
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00:18:29 <SgeoN1> Finally, crossed a stable shachaf. Erm, have a stable Internet connection.
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00:22:53 <SgeoN2> For some value of stable. Better than 3g at least.
00:25:34 <zzo38> One thing that the Amber core documentation does not say is how fast will it run on the Xilinx Spartan 6?
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00:32:19 <shachaf> http://gaslight.mtroyal.ab.ca/bottlimp.htm
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01:07:28 <kmc> damn it Lenovo, why won't you take my money
01:12:11 <shachaf> kmc: I hear Apple has MacBooks Air with 8GB RAM & i7.
01:12:22 <zzo38> What are you trying to buy?
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01:26:57 <Sgeo> <technomancy> you can't use clojure in GPL'd projects
01:27:08 <Sgeo> <technomancy> the EPL's patent clause is ironically considered "additional restrictions" by the GPL
01:27:14 <kmc> shachaf: no nipple pointer though
01:27:33 <kmc> oh boy my two favore things: Clojure and arguing about software licenses
01:28:52 <shachaf> kmc: Did you hear the RethinkDB code is out?
01:28:56 <kmc> also the keyborad is probably worse
01:29:00 <shachaf> Apparently they've decided to AGPL3 it.
01:37:22 <shachaf> kmc: Why aren't laptops getting the crazy high-resolution displays?
01:41:38 <kmc> because copying apple takes time
01:46:18 <shachaf> Apparently you can get a $400 2560×1600 tablet these days.
01:46:34 <shachaf> But the laptop people don't even care! Ridiculous.
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02:45:08 <kmc> http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/beach/fig2-16.jpg
02:47:14 <SgeoN2> This client has no rewson to be running.
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03:09:46 <shachaf> "One of the most familiar images in New York transit history"
03:09:53 <shachaf> Should I feel bad for not recognizing it?
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03:20:20 <kmc> also i'm impressed you back-resolved what web page that appears on
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03:21:38 <shachaf> kmc: The filename has a clue.
03:24:27 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this? http://www.chessvariants.org/index/displaycomment.php?commentid=29641
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03:36:09 <nooodl> zzo38: hey, is your Chronojournal still hosted somewhere? it was interesting
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03:42:55 <kmc> people don't understand probability
03:43:06 <kmc> if you say that something has a 25% chance of happening and then it happens, you are an idiot
03:44:10 <monqy> what if it doesn't happen are you still an idiot
03:44:42 <kmc> yeah most likely
03:57:18 <shachaf> zzo38: You have a brother?
03:57:22 <shachaf> Who invents chess variants?
03:57:48 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes I have a brother who has invented some chess variants.
03:58:00 <shachaf> Who invented more, you or your brother?
03:58:04 <zzo38> nooodl: I still have the software but there is no data.
03:58:16 <zzo38> shachaf: I did. However, some we have invented together.
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03:59:41 <zzo38> Well, we have not played all of these games, but I won sometimes and he won sometimes. I have not keep track.
04:01:19 <zzo38> There are four files not yet published: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSbackgammonches http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSrecapturablech http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSwithdrawingche http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSkirachesskiras
04:05:31 <Sgeo> Ooh, backgammon+chess?
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04:38:50 * Sgeo goes to actually click the link
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04:43:01 <kmc> should i vote for the Green-Rainbow Party candidate for President of the United States?
04:43:29 <Bike> the hell is that?
04:43:53 <Sgeo> "It is the Massachusetts state affiliate of the Green Party of the United States."
04:44:42 <kmc> and there is zero chance that my vote will actually affect who is president
04:44:54 <Bike> do you support rainbows?
04:45:07 <kmc> because MA will almost certainly go for Obama, and because any world where MA goes for Romney is a world where Obama is hopelessly fucked nation-wide
04:45:15 <kmc> the more the merrier
04:45:21 <shachaf> You should vote for yourself.
04:45:23 <Bike> you know what you must do
04:45:33 <kmc> hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
04:45:53 <Bike> that's right: vote for a version of yourself that has been blessed by the prism gods
04:45:56 <Sgeo> My dad thinks that NY might actually go Romney because of low turnout
04:46:16 <kmc> that seems... unlikely
04:46:28 <kmc> does your dad have any evidence or credibility
04:47:16 <kmc> urban areas probably recover faster from the hurricane
04:47:23 <kmc> and your voting place is just down the street
04:48:04 <kmc> you don't have to drive around suburbia avoiding fallen trees
04:48:52 <kmc> and Obama is ahead by 20-30 points so...
04:56:06 <kmc> "Indoor laundry drying 'poses a health risk'"
04:56:19 <kmc> was confused until i realized it's the BBC and remembered that clothes drying machines haven't been invented in the UK yet
04:56:46 <kmc> i think because of nazis or something
05:00:19 <copumpkin> like fan death, except dryer death
05:00:56 <copumpkin> but average household power allotments is much much smaller there than it is in the UK or here
05:13:47 <zzo38> Sgeo: Do you think that game is OK?
05:14:01 <Sgeo> zzo38, I only looked at the Chess+Backgammon one
05:14:43 <Sgeo> zzo38, interesting, although can games go indefinitely? I note that bearing off is actually reversible, in a sense, as beared off checkers can end up back in jail
05:16:35 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, I suppose it might, although checkmate always ends the game too, and there is the randomness involved too.
05:17:00 <zzo38> But it is possible to miss a turn in the chess game, sometimes!!
05:20:07 <zzo38> (Because of this, there is no draw by repetition.)
06:00:16 <Bike> having not paid attention in several minutes: what about the 50 move draw?
06:03:05 <zzo38> Bike: There is no 50 move draw. The only draw is not having a legal FIDE move (if not in check).
06:18:12 <zzo38> You can make other suggestion if you want to.
06:38:32 <zzo38> Do you know Chinese chess?
06:38:52 <Bike> I know of it, barely.
06:39:17 <Bike> Er, wait, Chinese chess more than Japanese chess, yes. If Chinese chesss is the one on a star of david looking thing.
06:40:36 <zzo38> Neither game is played on a Star of David (although that is an idea, to make up a variant involving such board)
06:41:04 <zzo38> Probably you mean Chinese Checkers, is played on the Star of David.
06:41:12 <pikhq> Bike: You're probably thinking "Chinese checkers".
06:41:13 <zzo38> Chinese Chess is a different game.
06:41:37 <pikhq> Chinese chess, or xiangqi, is actually a chess derivative of sorts.
06:41:46 <pikhq> (it evolved from the same game chess evolved from)
06:41:55 <pikhq> And Japanese chess is based on that.
06:42:10 <Bike> ok, that makes sense.
06:42:15 <zzo38> I can play all of those games.
06:43:54 <zzo38> I made up a variant of Xiangqi with drops similar to Shogi. http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSdroppablexiang
06:44:23 <zzo38> The piece with different names are considered different kind, instead of calling them different name for the same kind of piece as is normally done.
06:48:58 <Sgeo> I mostly heard of those games in context of alternative games in Hikaru no Go
06:50:07 <pikhq> I've played Shogi. I'm not very good at it.
06:51:08 <zzo38> I have pieces and board of shogi, the board is made of paper, pieces are normal though. All of them fit in one small box.
06:58:06 <zzo38> I prefer the flat pieces used with Shogi and Xiangqi rather than the 3D figures used with FIDE.
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11:27:08 <atriq> Today's Hexham challenge: gatecrash birthday parties
11:29:13 <shachaf> Jafet: The dual of Finland.
11:29:26 <shachaf> I bet it's elliott, oerjan, and monqy.
11:37:50 <atriq> Isn't elliott's birthday like in August or something
11:38:19 <shachaf> Who said you can only have one a year?
11:38:40 <atriq> Anyway, I must prepare for partyings!
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11:39:00 <Jafet> Born again elliott.
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13:16:21 <Vorpal> I'm playing with USB OTG, so far my phone handled everything I threw at it
13:16:35 <Vorpal> hm lets try the printer XD
13:16:47 <Vorpal> okay... "Printer connected"... now what
13:18:51 <Vorpal> hrrm "can only print on samsung printer"? fail...
13:20:25 <Vorpal> oh hey, I could try this USB midi device...
13:23:04 <Vorpal> USB Lego IR tower: fail
13:25:42 <fizzie> What happens if you connect it to another phone of the same model? Which one pretends to be the host and which one the device?
13:26:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, don't have more than one phone handy
13:26:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, but I think it depends on who has the USB OTG cable
13:26:18 <Vorpal> since the cable itself is being detected by the phone
13:26:20 <fizzie> Mhm, that'd make sense.
13:26:25 <Vorpal> even with nothing at the other end
13:26:28 <fizzie> Does it have more than one USB port? I suppose not.
13:26:43 <fizzie> I was hoping you could connect it to itself.
13:26:45 <Vorpal> going to try my Saitek X52 Pro Joystick now
13:27:02 <Vorpal> well the joystick powers on...
13:27:09 <Vorpal> but the phone said nothing
13:27:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, it works with mouse, keyboard, USB sticks and that sort of stuff
13:27:54 <Vorpal> and apparently some printers
13:28:29 <fizzie> My keyboard reports "MaxPower 300mA" in lsusb -v, but it worked in the RPi's built-in USB port; was a bit worried. (Those are officially rated only for single unit load devices.)
13:29:02 <Vorpal> does the webcam even work *tries in a computer*
13:29:26 <Vorpal> well windows says "no driver found". Linux seems to handle it as usual with older hardware
13:29:58 <Vorpal> for the record, lsusb identifies it as a "Bus 003 Device 002: ID 046d:0870 Logitech, Inc. QuickCam Express"
13:30:28 <fizzie> Webcam support went a lot nicer ever since that gspca thing was rolled into the mainline kernel.
13:30:43 <Vorpal> I would try my graph calculator, but I have a TI BlackLink for that
13:31:27 <fizzie> I have a useless webcam around here somewhere too.
13:31:50 <fizzie> Does 640x480 and is usable only with very well-lit targets.
13:31:53 <Vorpal> not sure if I have any crazy stuff left to experiment with
13:32:02 <Vorpal> I have an old dumb phone with USB somewhere
13:32:06 <Vorpal> it is a samsung as well
13:32:09 <fizzie> I vaguely recall that the Windows drivers worked a lot better, so maybe there's a gain setting that the Linux driver doesn't know about.
13:32:13 <Vorpal> so that should totally work, right? XD
13:32:59 <fizzie> Do you have any USB wifi dongles?
13:33:59 <Vorpal> samsung on samsung action: both phones turned on their screens when connected, but showed no further interest in each other. One wasn't even charging the other
13:34:08 <fizzie> Was wondering if it'd support that. Sounds a bit pointless, but not too far out.
13:34:16 <fizzie> This webcam is by Saitek.
13:34:50 <Vorpal> I thought they only made HID devices
13:35:00 <Vorpal> hm, HID devices is a bit silly, like PIN number
13:35:21 <fizzie> It looks like this: http://www.cbiz.nu/Media/Cache/Images/3/8/WEB_Image%20Saitek%20Flexicam%20webkamera%20%20webcam%20631362926.Jpeg
13:35:34 <fizzie> (It folds down to be a short cylindrical thing.)
13:35:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, maybe Nokia on samsung will work better? have an old dumbphone nokia that I now use as an incredibly loud alarm clock (it rocks for that)
13:36:09 <kmc> no, acronyms are words, they should be used in the clearest way without getting hung up on the etymology of the word
13:36:11 <Vorpal> might be usb mini instead of micro though
13:36:19 <fizzie> You'd think the old phone would work as a mass storage device just fine.
13:36:21 <fizzie> Bus 001 Device 028: ID 0c45:60fc Microdia PC Camera with Mic (SN9C105)
13:36:35 <fizzie> I don't think it actually has a microphone, though. But maybe it does.
13:36:41 <kmc> there are situations where "ATM machine" flows better than "ATM" in a sentence, and it's not like when people hear "ATM" they think to themselves "automated teller machine"
13:36:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, my old phones don't do mass storage
13:36:55 <fizzie> bInterfaceClass 1 Audio
13:36:55 <fizzie> bInterfaceSubClass 2 Streaming
13:37:17 <Vorpal> ah the nokia does USB micro
13:37:22 <kmc> so yeah I think saying "Linux has good support for HID devices" sounds better than "Linux has good support for HIDs" and that's fine
13:38:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, hey, the nokia asks if I want to connect as "PC Suite" or "Utskrift & media" to the other thing, with "Datalagring" greyed out
13:38:17 <Vorpal> I think the last one is greyed out since it doesn't have a microsd card
13:38:39 <Vorpal> neither of the available options do anything though
13:38:51 <fizzie> [4322122.491248] input: sonixj as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:12.2/usb1/1-1/1-1.4/input/input29
13:38:56 <fizzie> Hah, the camera even has a button.
13:39:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, funny thing, that Nokia doesn't charge through USB
13:39:39 <Vorpal> it uses a separate connector for that
13:40:27 <Vorpal> hey, lego USB tower doesn't work on 64-bit windows 7
13:40:33 <Vorpal> works fine on linux still
13:40:37 <Vorpal> though not on the phone
13:41:00 <fizzie> My work phone (Nokia C2-01) came with a charger for the "small hole" (2mm or whatever), even though it does have a µUSB port, and can charge through that.
13:41:36 <fizzie> The USB hole is in the side of the phone, under one of those tiny plastic flaps, though; the regular charger connector is in the top and always open.
13:41:42 <Vorpal> hm what about my camera... if I can find the USB cable for that (it uses a non-standard connector)
13:42:20 <fizzie> I get a "type 1 (EV_KEY), code 212 (KEY_CAMERA), value 1" out of /dev/input/event10 when I press the button in the webcam.
13:43:03 <Vorpal> where the hell is the battery for the camera...
13:45:51 <fizzie> Oh yes, the camera quality was just as horrible as I thought.
13:47:43 <Vorpal> I should have a powered hub somewhere
13:48:39 <Vorpal> hey I found a non-optical mouse
13:48:53 <fizzie> What you should plug in your phone is one of those cell-modem USB sticks; then you could make phone calls and access the Internet over it, from your phone.
13:49:14 <Vorpal> don't* have that either
13:50:46 <Vorpal> not sure where the adapter to it is
13:51:02 <Vorpal> doesn't say which voltage on the port
13:51:40 <Vorpal> not going to risk that
13:52:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, speaking of USB power, I have a USB stick here that requests two units of power
13:52:46 <Vorpal> it is just a 512 MB stick
13:55:52 <fizzie> Well, as mentioned, this keyboard requests three.
13:56:02 <fizzie> Admittedly it has a backlight kind of a thing.
13:56:31 <Vorpal> so I watched one video about Halo 4, since I was curious as to what the franchise is about (never played any Halo games)... Guess what the recommended list on the youtube front page is filled with now...
13:56:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it act as a hub as well?
13:57:13 <Vorpal> if so that is probably why
13:57:20 <fizzie> No, it's just a keyboard.
13:57:50 <fizzie> My #1 recommendation seems to be some *really* bizarre-looking Sonic comic thing.
13:58:09 <fizzie> Probably I clicked some links from the Sonic let's-play videos, they had some rather bizarre links too.
13:58:53 <fizzie> There's a badly drawn Sonic in a hospital bed with both hands bandaged, and an annoyed-looking Knuckles looking at him.
13:59:05 <fizzie> (In the thumbnail; I don't think I want to watch the video.)
13:59:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, youtube is currently ONLY recommending Halo
13:59:50 <fizzie> There probably are quite a few Halo videos around.
14:00:07 <Vorpal> I think they need a bit of inertia added to that algorithm
14:00:59 <fizzie> Gah. I went to the "recommended for you" page, and there the #1 hit is "Funny pics of Sonic and friends 2", where the thumbnail is a comic of Amy and Shadow kissing.
14:01:15 <Vorpal> I never played any sonic game
14:01:30 <Vorpal> I know who knuckles is, but Amy and Shadow? no clue
14:01:36 <fizzie> Amy is canonically Sonic's girlfriend, or at least a clingy thing that'd want to be his girlfriend.
14:02:02 <fizzie> And Shadow is kind of like Sonic except all edgy and dark and antihero. He shoots guns, and works for G.U.N. or something.
14:02:06 <Vorpal> " or at least a clingy thing that'd want to be his girlfriend." <-- oh? some drama there? Unanswered love?
14:02:27 <fizzie> Yes, I think Sonic is mostly depicted as being annoyed by her.
14:02:46 <fizzie> She does seem quite annoying, so maybe that's understandable.
14:03:46 <fizzie> There was some backstory for Shadow, but I've forgotten what it was. Some kind of an attempt to create the "ultimate life form".
14:04:22 <fizzie> He's Sonic's adversary in some games, but also an ally in others.
14:05:04 <fizzie> All very interesting, I'm sure. :p
14:05:12 <Vorpal> Sonic have any sort of story to it?
14:05:18 <Vorpal> other than, beat the boss
14:05:37 <fizzie> The newer games tend to have bit more of that; and then there's of course the comics.
14:07:08 <fizzie> Sonic 3 & Knuckles have that emerald-stealing plot, so there's a bit of a story there.
14:07:42 <FreeFull> There was always Eggman trapping little animals
14:07:54 <fizzie> Yes, there's that too.
14:08:49 <fizzie> But the new games do have cutscenes and all that fluff, and a story.
14:09:51 <fizzie> You're reading #esoteric, the global hub of whatever it was.
14:10:14 <FreeFull> Sonic Adventure was released in 1998/1999, does that still count as new?
14:10:16 <HackEgo> nortti: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:10:35 <Vorpal> <FreeFull> And turning them into robots <-- how?
14:10:36 <nortti> but I think most people will disagree
14:10:40 <fizzie> FreeFull: It's threedee, it's new.
14:10:50 <Vorpal> it seems an terribly inefficient way to get hold of the component materials
14:10:56 <Vorpal> even if blod is quite rich in iron
14:11:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: The animals are still inside the robots.
14:11:06 <FreeFull> Original Sonic The Hedgehog came out in 1991
14:11:19 <FreeFull> So 7 years between original and Adventure
14:11:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: Or something like that, anyway. I really don't know what the point is.
14:11:37 <FreeFull> But 14 years between Adventure and now
14:11:57 <fizzie> FreeFull: Yes, yes, but it's all "new games" since Sonic & Knuckles anyway.
14:12:41 <fizzie> ("Since" in the non-inclusive sense.)
14:23:43 <fizzie> http://hs11.snstatic.fi/webkuva/oletus/560/1305612374418?ts=176 -- yesterday, this was still a water tower.
14:24:00 <fizzie> (Then the two-million-litre tank fell off, this morning.)
14:24:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, where? And was anyone hurt?
14:24:22 <Vorpal> also, what about the flood from that
14:24:28 <fizzie> In Jyväskylä; and no, there's nobody living nearby.
14:24:38 <fizzie> Or at least too nearby.
14:25:02 <fizzie> I don't think those things tend to break quite that spectacularly, usually.
14:25:42 <fizzie> Here's a "before" shot: http://static.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/tattijuttu0311MH_uu.jpg
14:25:52 <fizzie> The stump is what's left.
14:27:57 <Vorpal> that is a very clean break
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16:53:57 <elliott> 04:46:28: <kmc> does your dad have any evidence or credibility
16:54:02 <elliott> kmc: the generalised answer to this is "no" btw
16:55:19 <elliott> 11:28:16: <Jafet> What is Hexham.
16:57:01 <elliott> kmc: "As of October 2009, the states of Florida, Colorado, Utah,[11][12][13] Hawaii, Maine and Vermont had passed laws forbidding bans on clothes lines."
16:57:13 <elliott> (re: dryer thing. why am i looking this up)
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17:09:07 <Phantom_Hoover> "I always thought Chan4 was a branch of BBC." -- redditor
17:10:07 <kmc> that is, as i believe the kids these days say, "lulzy"
17:10:39 <kmc> one of my coworkers uses that word all the time and it's like nails on a chalkboard to me
17:11:45 <elliott> it sounds like he is trololololing you so that u mad
17:12:32 <Phantom_Hoover> there is a guy in my kitchen who is like that it is so annoying
17:16:43 <kmc> elliott: ok i'll get right on that
17:17:17 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: like, some guy just showed up in the kitchen in your house and won't leave and talks in internet memes only?
17:17:42 <kmc> that would be a good plot point for a wacky post-modern sitcom slash angst-inducing existentialist play
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18:45:30 <kmc> woah there are a lot of birds in my yard now
18:45:55 <kmc> two robins, two bluejays, a bunch of sparrows, a starling, and possibly a mockingbird
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18:47:38 <kmc> not as pretty as this starling though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lamprotornis_hildebrandti_-Tanzania-8-2c.jpg
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19:57:32 <Vorpal> <elliott> kmc: "As of October 2009, the states of Florida, Colorado, Utah,[11][12][13] Hawaii, Maine and Vermont had passed laws forbidding bans on clothes lines." <-- lol what? banning cloth lines?
19:57:54 <Vorpal> in what context? Sale of them or just using them to hang clothes on?
20:01:42 <kmc> maybe because they are deemed unsightly?
20:02:02 <Vorpal> apparently it is associated with poverty in some parts of US.
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20:02:18 <elliott> kmc: Vorpal: you are both misreading
20:02:22 <elliott> they passed laws *forbidding* bans
20:02:26 <elliott> unless i am misreading you in turn
20:02:29 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah I understand that
20:02:35 <kmc> the question is why there were bans in the first place
20:02:44 <Vorpal> elliott, I just find the concept of them being banned in the first place so weird
20:02:50 <kmc> and yeah http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/11/us/11clothesline.html
20:02:52 <Vorpal> elliott, so I was investigating that
20:02:54 <kmc> fucking NIMBYs
20:04:50 <fizzie> "-- a time before clotheslines became synonymous with being too poor to afford a dryer --"
20:05:01 <kmc> it's really fucked the degree to which your neighbors can screw with your if your house doesn't match the ideal of perfect soulless suburbian mcmansion
20:05:35 <elliott> have these people ever actually used a drying machine
20:05:44 <Vorpal> kmc, in US maybe... You can't really do that stuff over here
20:05:44 <kmc> elliott: no the ones in the USA are great
20:05:56 <kmc> for some reason all the drying machines in the UK are awful
20:06:02 <kmc> i blame hitler
20:06:28 <elliott> clothes-line-dried clothes are really nice though, i am going to be a luddite and say not even fancy us drying machines can compare
20:06:39 <Vorpal> heck you don't even need to contact the planning offices if what you are building is small enough (forgot exact size, iirc something like 8 m² or such)
20:07:27 <kmc> houses in the UK are destroyed => flimsy post-war houses built with shitty wiring => can't run a clothes dryer
20:07:33 <kmc> ring circuits!
20:07:52 <kmc> in the USA a clothes dryer is a huge thing which plugs into a special outlet that has twice as many volts as usual
20:08:07 <fizzie> Your twice as many volts, isn't that our regular? :p
20:08:08 <kmc> and it will dry a big load of clothes completely in about an hour
20:08:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, you beat me to that
20:08:30 <kmc> presumably it is rated for more current as well, but i don't know the figure off hand
20:08:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, no that is just 220 actually
20:09:02 <kmc> probably 30A
20:09:06 <fizzie> Well *our* dryers plug into three-phase power. (Not really.)
20:09:29 <Vorpal> hey, I think our washing machine is three phase
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20:11:07 <Vorpal> and the stove. Since there are three fuses protecting it and parts of it still works when the fuses are blown.
20:11:23 <Vorpal> don't have a cloth drier though
20:11:55 <fizzie> Some of the washing machines in some more communal laundry places have used industrial plugs -- the IEC 60309 "CEE" ones -- though I haven't checked whether it's single-phase or three-phase.
20:12:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, is your stove three phase though?
20:12:50 <Vorpal> I think there is also a three phase outlet in the greenhouse
20:13:02 <fizzie> But the washing machine isn't; it's just regular Schuko.
20:13:06 <fizzie> Then again, it's pretty dinky.
20:13:10 <Vorpal> I'm not the one interested in gardening in this household I have no idea what it is used for
20:13:15 <Vorpal> some sort of heating or something maybe?
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20:14:48 <fizzie> "A small number of marinas provide 230 V single-phase power through a red three-phase connector (breaking the relevant standards in the process). This goes some way to ensuring that only boats that have paid the required fee (and thus obtained an appropriately made-up adaptor cable) are able to use the electricity." Heh, nasty.
20:15:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, or you could make one yourself pretty easily
20:16:06 <Lumpio-> Wouldn't it be easier to, I dunno, put locks on the power boxes
20:17:35 <fizzie> We've got a blue CEE 2P+E single-phase <-> Schuko adapter in the boat, since marinas indeed quite often have the former.
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20:18:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, does the former have any advantage?
20:18:43 <Vorpal> like water resistance or something?
20:18:49 <fizzie> I suppose it's maybe more rugged by default.
20:19:13 <fizzie> Though you could just put a flap on top of the regular outlet.
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20:19:39 <fizzie> Maybe it's rated for a bit more current too, the standard size is I think 16A.
20:19:54 <fizzie> I just seem to recall that's Schuko's rating too.
20:24:41 <kmc> 'Ruby on Rails Jobs - www.mirRoRplacement.com - All we do is work with startups seeking Ruby on Rails developers.'
20:24:56 <kmc> 'Rails didn’t just help us build better web apps, it introduced us to the most welcoming and nourishing developer community we’ve experienced.'
20:24:59 <kmc> mmmmmm yes nourishing
20:25:34 <fizzie> I was looking at this µUSB charger that came with a Bluetooth headset, to see if I could use it also to provide power to the RPi; it's a mains-powered standalone charger, but according to the markings it manages to provide the 5V DC current at a stupendous 180 mA.
20:25:43 <fizzie> No wonder charging the phone with that didn't quite work out.
20:26:21 <fizzie> (The phone's own bundled charger does 1.2A or so.)
20:29:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perilex do you have this kind of thing? It mentions "Sweden" in the first paragraph.
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20:29:54 <fizzie> It looks kind of silly.
20:30:09 <elliott> fizzie: PerilEx sounds like a Win32 API function that gives extended peril.
20:30:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I presume you seen the bottom of https://www.apple.com/uk/ ? Heh.
20:30:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, not familiar with it.
20:30:43 <elliott> Vorpal: that is less flashy than i was hoping
20:30:49 <elliott> i was hoping for a full-page "samsung tablets are awesome" ad
20:31:14 <Vorpal> Weren't those supposed to go into news papers or something?
20:31:19 <Vorpal> have that happened yet
20:31:35 <fizzie> I seem to recall that the earlier statement was more like "the court said our tables are significantly cooler, so there, nyah nyah".
20:31:47 <fizzie> Though I'm sure Apple's tables are quite cool too.
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21:54:32 <kmc> Tables, reinvented. Again.
21:54:42 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy has been UPDATed
22:02:58 <monqy> Sgeo: add nooodl to the list btw
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22:15:57 <ais523> my mother is trying to install a purchased copy of Office on a new computer
22:16:08 <ais523> doing so apparently requires creating a Windows Live account before they'll tell you your product key
22:16:22 <ais523> and giving a lot of personal information as a result
22:16:27 <ais523> she doesn't understand why
22:18:06 <ais523> anyone here have a built-in explanation?
22:18:37 <kmc> microsoft gotta get paid
22:19:06 <ais523> this is after buying a copy of office, though
22:20:14 <FreeFull> Wtf would Office require a live account
22:20:25 <nooodl> ais523: which office version is that?
22:20:55 <ais523> 2010, no-CD-in-box version
22:21:07 <ais523> they give you a code that you can put into their website to get the product key
22:21:15 <ais523> but the website also forces you to log in
22:21:46 <kmc> http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/10/31/nyregion/20121031_SANDY_GOBIG-slide-KULN/20121031_SANDY_GOBIG-slide-KULN-jumbo.jpg
22:22:10 <kmc> presumably it makes it harder in some way to use the same key twice
22:23:56 <nooodl> i'm thinking it's an anti-piracy thing yeah
22:28:40 <Vorpal> ais523, why use office anyway, for most people libreoffice should be just fine
22:29:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the powerpoint replacement is kind of terrible, but the spreadsheet and document editing parts are okay
22:29:57 <Sgeo> Unless you're trying to work on documents that are slightly more complicated than an essay with someone who uses Office.
22:30:03 <kmc> do they properly import and export -- yeah
22:30:17 <Vorpal> Sgeo, hm okay. Is that with docx or doc though?
22:30:21 <Vorpal> never really worked with docx
22:30:59 <Sgeo> Vorpal, even if doc worked perfectly, if docx doesn't, are you really going to convince everyone to save as doc?
22:31:28 <Vorpal> Sgeo, we use .doc, .xls and so on at work for compatibility reasons, even though we have modern office
22:31:36 <Vorpal> so eh, doesn't seem unreasonable
22:33:07 <Vorpal> I don't have office at home, works just fine for me.
22:33:24 <Vorpal> don't use libreoffice a lot either though.
22:34:20 <nortti> why is everyone using libreoffice instead of openoffice?
22:34:44 <Vorpal> when I last installed/upgraded it, openoffice was oracle, not sure if that is still the case
22:35:03 <Vorpal> nortti, what is the difference nowdays then
22:35:53 <nortti> Vorpal: openoffice is under apache license
22:36:14 <Vorpal> nortti, and the other one is under gpl?
22:36:37 <Vorpal> I couldn't care less then.
22:36:42 <Vorpal> any feature differences?
22:37:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, except it isn't any longer it seems
22:37:49 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Oracle divested OpenOffice to Apache.
22:37:50 <tswett> Hey, you know these? http://i.imgur.com/VpfZV.jpg
22:37:59 <tswett> I just made a subreddit for them. http://www.reddit.com/r/westwoods/
22:38:13 <pikhq> LibreOffice is by far the better one.
22:39:21 <pikhq> A major part of their development has been targetted towards "making it not suck". They've removed tons of dead code, and made it *actually integrate* into the UI on Linux systems...
22:39:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, which UI on linux? All of them?
22:39:54 <pikhq> Vorpal: It integrates with GTK2, GTK3, and Qt.
22:40:21 <pikhq> Only the useful targets.
22:40:28 <nortti> why nothing integrates to my twm desktop?
22:40:31 <Vorpal> what about CDE? for those poor SunOS users out there?
22:40:33 <pikhq> OO.o just looked like a Win95 program.
22:40:49 <pikhq> Vorpal: *Solaris* has been on GNOME for over a decade now. :)
22:41:01 <Vorpal> guess why I said SunOS specifically
22:42:38 <nortti> but really, what is so wrong with SunOS and Solaris
22:42:51 <kmc> but Motif is now free software!!!
22:43:07 <Vorpal> kmc, heirloom or what?
22:43:19 <kmc> don't know what that means
22:43:44 <Vorpal> probably even older ones though
22:43:50 <kmc> what does that have to do with motif
22:44:00 <Vorpal> kmc, motif would fit right into there :P
22:44:06 <Vorpal> who uses it these days
22:44:51 <nortti> I use either motif, xaw or tk
22:44:51 <kmc> i would guess that "Fuck SunOS" is by contrast to Solaris
22:46:30 <tswett> But it's part of my reddit username.
22:46:33 <shachaf> Did someone say something about uncomputable axioms?
22:46:58 <tswett> Yeah, there's this funny thing I learned recently.
22:47:01 <tswett> I'll have to tell you about it later.
22:48:33 <ais523> <Vorpal> ais523, why use office anyway, for most people libreoffice should be just fine ← she says it's so that the corporate IT people where she works won't refuse to support her when she has trouble showing a presentation
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22:49:50 <Vorpal> ais523, but that is on her home computer?
22:50:03 <ais523> Vorpal: she's making the presentations at home and showing them at work
22:54:13 <ais523> haha, the words "Completing Office setup" are being shown in the windows 3.1 system font
22:54:22 <ais523> except it seems to have been doubled in size by doubling the pixels
22:57:06 <elliott> imagine a world in which nortti does not pretend not to konw what people are talking about
22:57:35 <monqy> sorry elliott i can't
22:57:39 <monqy> my imagination: kaput???
22:58:44 <elliott> monqy: kaput is such a good word
22:58:50 <elliott> can you think of a better word; i can't
22:59:33 <monqy> not off the top of my head. imagination remember
23:00:11 <elliott> remembering things isn't imagination, monqy
23:00:43 <shachaf> elliott: what about: paraphernalia
23:01:10 <shachaf> elliott: what about: אצטרובל
23:01:45 <shachaf> elliott: what about: hypothesisn't
23:02:05 <nortti> elliott: I am not sure if it is refering to openoffice, libreoffice or (most probably) microsoft office
23:02:41 <monqy> too bad ais never said which it was earlier
23:02:46 <shachaf> elliott: what about: experiphysically
23:02:55 <elliott> shachaf: what is the point of this
23:03:10 <elliott> nortti: do you use Vorpal's irc client
23:03:19 <nortti> elliott: no. why do you ask?
23:03:49 <elliott> Vorpal's irc-client is well-known to not support backlog
23:04:37 <elliott> some suspect that it was not his client but in fact himself who chose to not read backlog to the inconvenience of others
23:04:41 <elliott> but those are just rumours
23:05:57 <nortti> I think I found the lin you were talking about but it looks like this: 00:48 < ais523> <Vorpal> ais523, why use office anyway, �~augur@208.58.5.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connecti
23:06:24 <elliott> it was actually more like 30 lines
23:06:34 <ais523> nortti: for reference, Microsoft Office 2010
23:06:40 <ais523> (the exact version number hadn't been mentioned before)
23:07:06 <nortti> elliott: that is only ais line I can find before my backlog goes so corrupted it can't be read
23:07:23 <elliott> maybe you should use an irc client that doesn't corrupt your backlog
23:07:46 <elliott> i don't dare to ask how that differs from irssi
23:08:52 <nortti> the problem is either ncurses version in broken gentoo installation last updated in 2009, irssi compiled wrong or screen messing something up
23:09:25 <monqy> have you asked the geek squad
23:09:49 <elliott> nortti: have you tried not using a broken gentoo installation last updated in 2009
23:10:25 <nortti> elliott: it is not my server. it is mailserver of my irc friend
23:10:47 <nortti> monqy: irssi is up to date
23:11:00 <elliott> nortti: have you tried not using a broken gentoo installation last updated in 2009
23:11:22 <nortti> elliott: yes. the problem was not present on my own computer
23:12:31 <monqy> but you'r still using a broken gentoo installation last updated in 2009??
23:12:48 <monqy> is this some sort of friend agreement
23:12:57 <monqy> use the mailserver or you are no longer pals
23:13:03 <elliott> monqy: the dumpster gods wanted his computer back
23:13:19 <nortti> don't take my computer!
23:13:41 <nortti> monqy: it is just so much easier to run irssi on server I can stab
23:13:49 <nortti> *stand backlog corruption
23:14:18 <Sgeo> elliott, do you still SO?
23:14:33 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/12kz49/what_optimizations_can_ghc_be_expected_to_perform/
23:14:44 <Sgeo> "[SO, bounty, expires in 20 hours]"
23:15:00 <elliott> i answer questions on SO occasionally when i feel like it
23:15:24 <elliott> writing a gigantic answer in 20 hours for some points is not quite up my alley
23:15:34 <elliott> it's not even that large a bounty!! i need larger internet point bribes than that
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23:15:50 <ais523> nortti: this line contains a UTF-8 character in the Latin-1 range: é and one outside the Latin-1 range: ņ and then it continues on afterwards
23:15:55 <ais523> how does it look for you?
23:17:04 <nortti> ais523: < ais523> nortti: this line contains a UTF-8 character in the Latin-1 range: é and one outside the Latin-1 range:
23:17:25 <nortti> that is 2 lines by the way
23:17:30 <ais523> nortti: "and then it continues on afterwards"
23:17:59 <ais523> elliott: that was my idea too
23:18:06 <nortti> ok. it seems it converts utf-8 to latin-1 and then back to utf-8
23:18:14 <elliott> ņ ais523: it was someone else's, also
23:18:25 <elliott> ņ something about microsoft office
23:18:38 <ais523> elliott: how did you hide lines from Vorpal, again?
23:18:41 <ais523> was it starting them "ehird:"?
23:18:56 <nortti> elliott: I can see what you are talking about from logs
23:19:11 <elliott> ņ if you have to read the logs, then you'll be able to see the context
23:19:32 <shachaf> elliott: Make ais523 kick me!
23:19:44 <nortti> well not straight from the logs but tail -f irclogs/freenode/\
23:19:51 <elliott> shachaf: how about you just stop being a fucking moron and embarrassing yourself by acting like an idiot whenever me or monqy talks
23:20:02 <nortti> *tail -f irclogs/freenode/\#esoteric.log | cat -v works
23:20:05 <ais523> shachaf: this is not an interesting meme
23:20:18 <ais523> and it's one that's quite harmful for productive discussion
23:20:25 <ais523> about the best you can hope for is everyone ignoring you
23:20:43 <shachaf> That's a good deal worse than kicking. :-(
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00:07:40 * pikhq translates to Japanese
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00:21:55 <kmc> http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/10/31/us/2012-sandy-POD-2.html#/?slide=11 Our Lady of the Extension Cord
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00:27:14 <ion> :-D http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/12kce9/apple_resizes_website_so_that_the_samsung_apology/
00:36:37 <elliott> "It is there specifically to get the bottom 310px of the website out of view. Independent of screen resolution."
00:41:12 <elliott> "This code appears in most of Apple's non-US sites, not just the UK site." aw
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01:44:13 <shachaf> It's not everything, but it's something!
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01:47:42 <shachaf> > toListOf (traverse._1) [(1,2),(3,4),(5,6),(7,8)]
01:50:14 <lambdabot> No instances for (GHC.Enum.Enum (f0 b0), GHC.Num.Num (f0 b0))
01:50:25 <elliott> )-------------------------------------------:
01:50:32 <elliott> > both (pure . succ) (1,2)
01:50:34 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (f0 (b0, b0)))
01:50:39 <elliott> > runIdentity $ both (pure . succ) (1,2)
01:50:51 <lambdabot> Setting s t a b -> (a -> b) -> s -> t
01:51:49 <kmc> is that the king of all cosmos?
01:54:18 <ion> :───────────┐
01:54:20 <ion> ┌──────┼───────┬────D
01:54:22 <ion> └──────┘ └────D
01:57:59 <FireFly> ...what exactly is that meant to be?
01:58:47 <olsner> the two-faced smile of ion
02:00:01 <kmc> ion++ for using line drawing characters
02:00:06 <kmc> line drawing characters are the best
02:04:26 <kmc> my terminal font does a really, really bad job with the ♥ character
02:04:30 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/sW4qQ.png
02:04:49 <kmc> i don't think it was always thus
02:05:25 <ion> You should ask for your money back.
02:06:17 <shachaf> What's your terminal and font?
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02:12:44 <kmc> rxvt-unicode -bg black -fg white -fn "x:6x13"
02:13:15 <kmc> sometimes my computer does this thing where it uses up all the ram (?) and then there is weird graphics corruption that doesn't fully go away
02:13:28 <kmc> like not just the framebuffer gets corrupted but various offscreen buffers that programs keep using
02:13:31 <kmc> so maybe this is that
02:13:36 <kmc> or maybe it's the fault of a dist-upgrade
02:13:39 <kmc> or maybe i'm just cursed
02:13:41 <olsner> that's what happens when you fill the bitbucket
02:21:05 <olsner> halp, I'm thinking about watching SG-1 again
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02:24:00 <kmc> is that a good one or no
02:28:01 <shachaf> I like the font "Monospace".
02:28:23 <olsner> i also have a monospace font
02:28:31 <shachaf> I think you can get it in urxvt with -fn 'xft:Monospace'
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02:30:37 <olsner> or by putting "URxvt.font: xft:Terminus:size=8" in .Xdefaults
02:37:11 <kmc> yeah i'll have to look into that
02:37:20 <kmc> i can become one of these droid sans mono evangelists
02:37:36 <kmc> your choice of fonts really says a lot about you as a programmer
02:37:41 <kmc> it can define whether you're a rockstar or more of a ninja
02:37:48 <olsner> yeah, it has to be some obscure unreadable but supposedly-really-good-for-code font
02:38:24 <kmc> "The color camera on Apollo 12 provided a few brief moments of color telecasting before it was inadvertently pointed at the Sun, ending its usefulness."
02:38:56 <kmc> how much money was spent to send this fancy camera to the goddamn moon and then "whoops"
02:39:13 <Bike> hey be fair. the sun is pretty big!
02:39:29 <kmc> it's much bigger up there in space
02:39:55 <olsner> it gets bigger the closer to the sky you get
02:40:11 <kmc> until you hit the bounding box and then you just can't move even though your legs are moving
02:52:10 <FreeFull> shachaf: Monospace is actually an alias to a different font
02:52:26 <FreeFull> It gets you either Bitstream Vera Sans Mono or DejaVu Sans Mono, I don't know which
02:52:39 <Sgeo> There exists a Tcl-Java bridge
02:52:56 <monqy> whats this about??
02:52:59 <Bike> haha, why the fuck?
02:53:03 <Sgeo> Wonder if I can fix it up so that it can interact with Clojure in a more idiomatic way than dealing with the Java objects directly
02:53:10 <Sgeo> http://tcljava.sourceforge.net/docs/website/
02:54:00 <Sgeo> I actually potentially have a use for this thing, although probably writing my own parser for the data in question and just rewriting the code would make more sense
02:54:46 <elliott> Sgeo: by "use" do you mean "thing you will actually use"
02:55:51 <Sgeo> No. I have no real reason to rewrite this project from scratch, in a way that will possibly cause pain for actual user in that a JVM would be needed.
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02:56:10 <kmc> https://twitter.com/fivethirtynate
02:58:01 <Sgeo> Although actually, Tcl and Clojure are both awesome languages.
02:58:06 <Sgeo> (And I have actually used Tcl)
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03:09:38 <shachaf> FreeFull: No, the font is called "Monospace"
03:09:56 <shachaf> That's the name of the font.
03:10:57 <FreeFull> shachaf: Monospace is an alias
03:11:15 <shachaf> MAYBE AN ALIAS FOR "Monospace"
03:11:57 <ion> The “M” stands for “Monospace”.
03:14:28 <shachaf> What does the "onospace" stand for?
03:14:45 <Bike> it's actually a beatles reference
03:15:32 <shachaf> You're a Beatles reference!
03:16:46 <ion> In space, no-one can hear you marry John Lennon.
03:16:48 <Sgeo> Some people in New Jersey might be ... voting by email?
03:17:20 <Bike> i for one support giving our electoral process over to srizbi
03:17:42 <Sgeo> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/03/new-jersey-residents-can-_n_2070016.html
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03:32:53 <shachaf> ion: Man, I should learn Finnish.
03:33:05 <pikhq> shachaf: Learn Japanese and get drunk.
03:33:26 <shachaf> do they have drinking in japan
03:33:35 <ion> shachaf: Noooo, don’t do it
03:33:36 <kmc> great, so they are implementing electronic voting at absolutely the last minute with zero security measures
03:34:10 <kmc> to be fair there is no real security on mail-in ballots
03:34:36 <kmc> and voter fraud is mainly a bullshit issue used by republicans to make it harder for poor people and minorities to vote
03:34:52 <kmc> and NJ won't matter for the presidential election, anyway
03:35:56 <shachaf> kmc: Did you see that nytimes.com thing?
03:36:07 <shachaf> http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/11/02/us/politics/paths-to-the-white-house.html
03:37:12 <kmc> yeah, that's cool
03:37:50 <ion> sgeo: Faxes still exist?
03:38:14 <shachaf> If someone claims they have one, you should tell them it's really a faux fax
03:38:19 <ion> shachaf: Why do you think you should learn Finnish?
03:38:44 <shachaf> ion: Because Finnish people should speak Finnish!
03:38:55 <kmc> shachaf: isn't it great how 70% of the country is completely irrelevant to presidential politics?
03:40:04 <shachaf> kmc: Today I learned about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact
03:40:57 <kmc> yeah that is an amusing hack
03:40:59 * pikhq lives in a part that is relevant. Bleh.
03:41:38 <kmc> they're almost halfway there
03:43:43 <kmc> now, what if more states allocated electoral votes per congressional district
03:43:48 <kmc> as ME and NE do
03:43:52 <kmc> would that be good or bad?
03:44:01 <Gregor> That… is such a retarded way to fix the system, but oh well, better than nothing.
03:47:30 <kmc> another option is for states to allocate their EVs proportionally to the statewide popular vote, rather than all-or-nothing
03:47:41 <kmc> neither of those requires a compact or a federal constitutional amendment
03:48:45 <Jafet> Oh, it's November already.
03:49:34 <quintopia> some call it "election month" but i call it nanowrimo
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03:51:59 <kmc> some call it erection month
03:54:17 <Sgeo> Wouldn't that be opposed by whatever the majority of a state is, since they're now not as strongly represented?
03:54:31 <pikhq> Why call it "election month"? The majority of the month is taken up by not-election.
03:55:06 <Sgeo> Post-election month, since most of it is post-election, while the beginning is pre-election?
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04:03:40 <Gregor> Sgeo: Really, it should just be opposed by Republicans, since in each election where the popular vote hasn't matched the electoral vote, they've won ;)
04:04:26 <quintopia> Gregor: but like every electoral trend, that could change in any given year
04:08:43 <shachaf> "an electoral trend could change in any given year" sounds like an electoral trend.
04:08:54 <shachaf> Or is that a metaëlectoral trend, and therefore immune to itself?
04:09:52 <quintopia> you are mistaken in interpreting it as a trend
04:10:47 <quintopia> a trend is "this has always been" while that is just "this might or might not be"
04:11:04 <elliott> i dont think thats what trend means
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04:22:35 <quintopia> feel free to define it as you like
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04:24:19 <HackEgo> Gracenotes: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:25:19 <Gracenotes> When the server my irssi screen session is on resets, sometimes I forget to join channels
04:26:00 <FreeFull> Why don't you have the channels on autojoin
04:26:08 <Gracenotes> and so went my habit of coming here from I-forget-when.
04:27:02 <Gracenotes> I join so rarely, it doesn't seem worth it >_>
04:28:57 <Gracenotes> well, connect rarely, due to good uptime. in any case, I've made trawls through the wiki here and there when bored :p The only lang I've created was a stack-based lambda calculus interpreter
04:30:45 <kmc> Gregor: i'm not sure if 1824 is a counterexample to what you said or not, it's just that fucked up
04:31:28 <kmc> the candidate with the largest popular vote share and the most electoral votes lost
04:31:35 <kmc> to another candidate from the same party
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04:32:13 <Gregor> Well, yeah, 1824 was just weird.
04:32:54 <kmc> i had forgot about this until just now
04:32:59 <kmc> or maybe i never learned it in the first place
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05:41:41 <shachaf> elliott: jfischoff in #haskell wants to talk about mapping on HLists and things.
05:42:58 <elliott> i dont know much about oleg's definition of hlists
05:47:09 <shachaf> elliott: He spelled your name with one t.
05:47:17 <shachaf> You should give him a new version of the code with a backdoor in it.
05:47:36 <elliott> the backdoor is already in there
05:49:03 <shachaf> elliott: But it's commented out in the most recent version. :-(
05:50:07 <elliott> thats another persons paste
05:50:29 <copumpkin> people seriously need to start standardizing the elliott spellings
05:51:29 <shachaf> copumpkin: I'm pretty sure T. S. Eliot already decided on the correct spelling.
05:52:00 <monqy> that's a funny way to spell "right" !
05:58:29 <ion> hi shackhaff
05:59:45 <shachaf> ion: The correct spelling is שחף
06:01:09 <ion> > (unwords . map concat . sequence) [["E"], ["l", "ll"], ["io"], ["t", "tt", "tte"]]
06:01:10 <lambdabot> "Eliot Eliott Eliotte Elliot Elliott Elliotte"
06:01:44 <ion> shachaf: shchf?
06:01:45 <monqy> elliott: how would you like to be "Eliotte"
06:02:11 <shachaf> monqy: if elliott doesn't want to be Eliotte can i be Eliotte
06:07:17 <ion> ‘libtcod, a.k.a. “The Doryen Library”, is a free, fast, portable and uncomplicated API for roguelike developpers providing an advanced true color console, input, and lots of other utilities frequently used in roguelikes.’
06:07:23 <ion> Who wants to developpe roguelikes?
06:07:49 <shachaf> "pushing the roguelike enveloppe"
06:09:12 <monqy> dear roguelike how does it feel to have your envolope pushed??
06:15:39 <ion> My clothes only have single-hole zippers.
07:09:46 <ais523> I think libtcod is mostly useful as a terminal substitute for windows
07:09:53 <ais523> the rest of it seems too disjointed, really
07:11:04 <ais523> also, I think it's hilarious what Apple did with their homepage (designing it to be slightly too tall for the screen no matter what size the screen is, it deliberately adjusts for it and makes itself too large to fit, in order to hide the link to the apology to Samsung)
07:21:02 <elliott> ais523: i like how the judge literally said "samsung's tablets are less cool, so they don't infringe"
07:21:16 <elliott> can't imagine samsung were terrible happy about winning on that account
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08:24:51 <fizzie> ais523: Reportedly it's not too tall "no matter what"; it doesn't actually stretch, just rearranges itself a bit.
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10:55:01 <Vorpal> hm where is elliott when you need him
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10:57:19 <Vorpal> shachaf, I supposed you don't know anything about what god ergonomical keyboards exist?
10:58:20 <Vorpal> that isn't silly ultraflat
10:58:41 <shachaf> I think kmc might know something.
10:58:51 <Vorpal> I was looking at microsoft's keyboard lineup (I really like their mice) but it seems to be all ultra-flat these days
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11:00:33 <Vorpal> shachaf, that maybe looks too ergonomical (Kinesis), seems kind of hard to get used to
11:01:00 <shachaf> I know a few people who use it and like it.
11:01:07 <Vorpal> wouldn't want to buy that without trying it first. And there aren't really any good physical shops around here that would have it.
11:01:23 <Vorpal> that is a bit of an issue
11:01:55 <Jafet> WHO NEEDS GOD WHEN YOU CAN HAVE A MALTRON
11:04:02 <Vorpal> Jafet, why not go for a Datahand while you are at it :P
11:04:34 <Vorpal> anyway, I want something that isn't completely different, I'm not only typing on it. Game keymappings still need to make sense for me. As do emacs keymappings.
11:05:17 <Vorpal> also if the layout is going to be different I would need a reasonable Swedish keymapping for it still
11:07:29 <fizzie> I had one of the "Microsoft Natural Ergonomic" line keyboards once -- something like the http://www.verkkokauppa.com/files/images/71/2_27314-358x228.jpeg except few (dozen?) product generations back.
11:07:53 <fizzie> Can't say I liked it terribly much, but keyboards are kind of personal things.
11:09:19 <fizzie> (The one in the image is Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 -- I think the one I had didn't have any numbers.)
11:10:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah the modern ones appear to be ultraflat
11:10:13 <Vorpal> well okay not that one
11:10:19 <Vorpal> I was looking at the curve one
11:10:29 <Vorpal> which is a bit between that and normal keyboards
11:10:35 <Vorpal> I liked the older curve ones
11:11:07 <fizzie> The Comfort Curve 3000 seems kinda flat, yes.
11:12:03 <Vorpal> I used a 2000 at one point, it was kind of slightly flatter than classical keyboards, but not as flat as the 3000 appears
11:12:14 <fizzie> (Some) gamer keyboards look kind of different.
11:12:16 <fizzie> http://www.verkkokauppa.com/files/images/97/2_137749-1000x1000.jpeg
11:12:21 <fizzie> That's a lot of buttons.
11:12:55 <Vorpal> don't really need that. All I really need is a comfortable standard keyboard + volume buttons. Anything else I don't really care about
11:13:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the thing in the middle of MS natural?
11:17:47 <Vorpal> uh uh, it has a "nordic" layout too?
11:17:50 <Vorpal> what does that even mean
11:19:51 <Vorpal> okay, from that photo it even appears to be an US layout, guess they used stock photo
11:20:04 <Vorpal> would have to call them to make sure it is actually correct before I buy it
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11:20:43 <Vorpal> not going to buy a keyboard without a large enter key
11:21:00 <FreeFull> Instead I have a tiny leftshift :D
11:21:56 <FreeFull> To make space for \| between left shift and z
11:22:05 <ion> Can one access I²C devices asynchronously using the Linux API?
11:23:04 <Vorpal> ion, async in what way?
11:23:33 <ion> vorpal: Tell it to start doing something, block in poll()/select(), then read the result.
11:23:38 <Vorpal> if so couldn't you just create a thread to handle the request for you and have that notify you async
11:23:55 <Vorpal> but yeah I have no idea if it supports it
11:24:02 <Vorpal> and what happen if you try it
11:24:10 <ion> Yeah, using threads is an alternative.
11:25:06 <ion> It supports read() for a subset of the functionality: http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=blob;f=Documentation/i2c/dev-interface
11:25:40 <ion> Namely, the equivalent of i2c_smbus_read_byte.
11:26:24 <ion> But i’d like to be able to use the full API asynchronously.
11:28:01 <Vorpal> ion, what sort of device are you interfacing with?
11:28:24 <fizzie> It's a scroll wheel, yes.
11:28:49 <ion> An accelerometer, a magnetometer, a gyroscope, a barometer and a temperature sensor.
11:29:05 <fizzie> (The version I had had no wheels.)
11:29:12 <ion> Oh, and another pressure sensor with a pitot tube.
11:29:17 <ion> An RC airplane.
11:29:48 <Vorpal> ion, yeah I could guess when you mentioned pitot tube :P
11:31:01 <Vorpal> upgrading ubuntu 10.04 to 12.04.1 on a laptop here, there is always something that goes wrong isn't it. This time lsb_release stopped working partway through the upgrade and the upgrade process is spewing warnings as a result, still seem to work
11:31:28 <Vorpal> mojabake error dialog showed up. With two mojabake buttons
11:31:33 <Vorpal> I have no idea what that is for
11:45:40 <Jafet> The change in version number represents how many things have been replaced for no reason
11:46:29 <Vorpal> Jafet, which is why I'm doing this upgrade on an old, otherwise unused, laptop first.
11:46:50 <Vorpal> to see how much time I will need to set aside to clean up the mess when I do it on this modern laptop
11:47:08 <Vorpal> well, reasonably modern laptop anyway
11:47:43 <Jafet> Upgrading ubuntu: echo deb ftp.debian.org/debian sid main > /etc/apt/sources.list
11:48:40 <Jafet> (You will need to use the Terminal for that. Open the Terminal from the Start Menu. I mean the App Launcher.)
11:50:20 <Vorpal> Jafet, I'm going to convert it into xubuntu after the upgrade anyway
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11:55:22 <Jafet> fizzie: a new animal every time!
11:56:35 <fizzie> There's the Ubuntu Satanic Edition.
11:59:43 <fizzie> The Suse Ubuntu Archmint Genfedoratoo Linux.
12:00:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, with the SlackDebGoboWare package manager?
12:01:35 <fizzie> It installs package.rpm.deb.tar.gz.xz.bz2 files.
12:02:51 <Jafet> > "apt portage" \\ " ott"
12:03:23 <fizzie> "apprage" sounds like the best package manager ever.
12:04:00 <fizzie> "Like the "Deb" part of the term Debian, it originates from the name of Debra, then girlfriend and now ex-wife of Debian's founder Ian Murdock." <- Heh, I did not know that.
12:04:45 <fizzie> Must be a nice reminder these days.
12:04:56 <Jafet> Think about that the next time you unpack a deb file.
12:06:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: anagram: not found
12:08:44 <Jafet> The next step in linux evolution
12:11:03 <FreeFull> `alias echo='echo $( echo )'; echo Test
12:11:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: alias: not found
12:11:28 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
12:12:08 <quintopia> FreeFull: abbreviated, it looks like a gene
12:12:38 <FreeFull> quintopia: Three letters for one aminoacid though
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12:34:48 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28...
12:34:54 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: hagb4rd).
12:35:11 <lambdabot> "12345678910111213141516171819202122232425262728293031323334353637383940414...
12:35:35 <FreeFull> > "0.0" ++ concat $ map show [1..]
12:35:37 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
12:35:44 <FreeFull> > "0.0" ++ (concat $ map show [1..])
12:35:46 <lambdabot> "0.012345678910111213141516171819202122232425262728293031323334353637383940...
12:36:14 <FreeFull> Look ma, an irrational number!
12:36:45 <Jafet> > [show(sum$scanl div(100^n)[1..[4..]!!n])!!n|n<-[0..]]
12:36:48 <lambdabot> "27182818284590452353602874713526624977572470936999595749669676277240766303...
12:40:15 <quintopia> i dont take orders, but feel free to explain your sudden hostility
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16:30:06 <Vorpal> unity of gnome 3, which is the most screwed up GUI of the two? Hard to decide
16:30:25 <fizzie> "Unity of Gnome 3" sounds fancy.
16:30:33 <fizzie> Also like a royal title.
16:31:00 <fizzie> All kneel for His Highness Unity of Gnome 3.
16:32:14 <Vorpal> unity runs like shit on the laptop I'm upgrading to 12.04 anyway
16:32:24 <Vorpal> Pentium M with 512 MB RAM so not surprised
16:33:02 <fizzie> In 12.10 with LLVMPipe I'm sure it'd be BLAZING FAST.
16:33:25 <kmc> is lubuntu ubuntu for losers?
16:33:30 <FreeFull> I'm considering switching to dwm
16:33:59 <fizzie> Why are three leds of the switch blinking if I'm downloading a file? Two I'd get.
16:34:44 <nortti> kmc: it is ubuntu with lxde
16:35:17 <fizzie> Is there an Enlightenment-Ubuntu too? Enbuntu?
16:35:45 <kmc> fizzie: you forgot about the NSA intercept port
16:35:54 <FreeFull> It's just a bunch of different things put together
16:37:09 <FreeFull> Ok, half of it was written for it
16:37:24 <fizzie> I remember running Enlightenment... E14? Something like that. It was very impressive-looking.
16:37:31 <fizzie> Compared to fvwm95 anyway.
16:37:33 <olsner> I "like" how unity by default comes with 7 out of 10 icons being open office and the rest being pretty much indistinguishable other useless stuff
16:37:40 <olsner> except the magic button for accessing everything else
16:37:44 <Vorpal> <nortti> Vorpal: use lubuntu <-- uh... LXDE?
16:37:51 <fizzie> http://fvwm95.sourceforge.net/screenshot-full.gif SO HOT
16:37:56 <Vorpal> haven't tried that for years, but eh, didn't like it back then
16:37:57 <olsner> (i.e. useful, but still indistinguishable)
16:38:27 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway the only reason I upgrade that laptop is so I can figure out all the issues before I upgrade my modern laptop
16:38:52 <Vorpal> nortti, other than that it is just used when I need a serial port
16:39:52 <fizzie> Incidentally, couldn't manage to convince pulseaudio (via pavucontrol) to make the laptop to mute the internal speakers while at the same time keeping the optical s/pdif jack unmuted.
16:40:35 <fizzie> Fortunately the volume control doesn't (naturally) affect the s/pdif stream, so I could just turn the volume REAL LOW (but not quite to 0, that muted both) so that the internal speakers were inaudible.
16:40:42 <fizzie> Such an elegant solution.
16:41:41 <nortti> pulseaudio - makes even alsa look good
16:41:43 <ion> http://youtu.be/5Ro9yu6Jces?t=2m33s
16:42:13 <kmc> fuck pulseaudio
16:42:52 <ion> A lot of its functionality belongs in the kernel, but despite that my experiences with it have been positive.
16:43:27 <olsner> ah, http://toastytech.com/guis/ubuntu114dash.png
16:43:36 <kmc> of course you do nortti
16:44:08 <nortti> I have never had any problems with it
16:44:53 <olsner> only 3 OOo icons, but 5 mysterious ones, plus the "home" thing that you somehow have to figure out is the way to access anything else
16:44:54 <ion> You can *gasp* add and remove favorite programs to/from the sidebar.
16:45:53 <fizzie> My experiences with PA have been really bland. It's worked well enough, and I like the way I can easily route different streams to different outputs without trying to figure out each program's well-hidden audio device configuration method, but sometimes there's things like the aforementioned.
16:46:00 <olsner> I guess the gods have deliberated and decided that the only things ubuntu systems are really used for is spreadsheets, presentations, and whatever the big "U" thing is
16:46:17 <fizzie> olsner: It's Ubuntu One, I'm pretty sure.
16:46:25 <olsner> yes, whatever that is :)
16:46:26 <fizzie> olsner: See, it has a little "1" inside the U.
16:46:28 <ion> olsner: What would be the better set of defaults?
16:46:58 <olsner> ion: dunno, I think the big problem is that everything else is hidden
16:48:03 <ion> The home thing is an equally big button on the top of the sidebar nowadays. That’s an old screenshot.
16:48:37 <ion> Is “everything hidden” in Windows™ because it’s available from the button in the bottom left corner? http://www.activewin.com/screenshots/windows7/Peek%20-%20After.png
16:49:05 <fizzie> Is it, these days? I thought they got rid of that in 8.
16:49:19 <ion> Is “everything” hidden in OSX because it’s available from one of the buttons in the bottom panel? http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/desktop/empty/macosx102.png
16:49:48 <Vorpal> <ion> Is “everything hidden” in Windows™ because it’s available from the button in the bottom left corner? http://www.activewin.com/screenshots/windows7/Peek%20-%20After.png <-- what happened there?
16:50:07 <ion> http://windows7themes.net/wp-content/gallery/windows-8-screenshots/Windows_8_screenshot.png
16:50:33 <Vorpal> ion, that isn't metro though
16:50:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's no such thing as Metro nowdays either.
16:51:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, whatever they changed the name to then
16:51:26 <fizzie> Or possibly "Windows 8".
16:51:57 <nortti> wasn't it "Windows 8 style user experience" ?
16:52:03 <fizzie> Or "Microsoft design language" in place of "Metro design language".
16:52:04 <olsner> I think a row of icons without text or a search box are both really bad ways to find stuff
16:52:10 <olsner> ... what both the start menu and mac's application thingy have (last time I checked) is that they give you a big list/grid of everything you can do
16:52:44 <fizzie> AIUI, it's "Start screen" now, and it's full of "tiles".
16:53:23 <fizzie> Some of the tiles are also "live".
16:53:29 <fizzie> (They're "made of people"?)
16:53:39 <ion> You get the big list and the search box by clicking on the big Ubuntu logo on the top. There are tooltips for everything in the vertical panel.
16:54:25 <fizzie> There's also a Charms bar in 8.
16:54:34 <fizzie> "Start. Get to your Start screen. Or if you're already on Start, you can use this charm to go back to the last app you were in."
16:54:55 <ion> I don’t see text in the OSX dock or the Windows quick launcher either.
16:55:39 <ion> Nor do they contain a search bar.
16:56:48 -!- elliott has joined.
16:56:59 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:57:40 <Vorpal> elliott, keyboard recommendations? I need a new one. Something ergonomic and not ultra flat. Nothing crazy like the data hand though :P
16:58:06 <elliott> Vorpal: depends what you mean by ergonomic & your budget
16:58:50 <elliott> Vorpal: however take a look at http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards.htm
16:58:56 <Vorpal> elliott, budget, up to approx 150 USD or so. Not a sharp line
16:59:01 <elliott> Vorpal: they use cherry brown switches
16:59:16 <Vorpal> elliott, and ergonomic: my hands must stop hurting, they are hurting from the temp keyboard I'm using atm
16:59:24 <elliott> well at least the advantage ones do
16:59:36 <elliott> i hear good only things about them but haven't used them mind you
16:59:48 <Vorpal> elliott, so something that means your wrists can be straight lines. I really liked the old MS Comfort Curve keyboards, but the modern one appears to be ultra flat
16:59:59 <kmc> kinesis advantage is great
17:00:01 <olsner> ion: true, the quick launchers don't have text on any os ... but the menu/thing you get to display all applications is usually useful in !unity :)
17:00:12 <olsner> whereas unity apparently requires me to Search for whatever I want (and I won't know exactly what it's called until after I find it)
17:00:13 <Vorpal> kmc, issue: game keybindings appear to be weird on that
17:00:19 <Vorpal> kmc, also how long does it take to get used ot
17:00:23 <kmc> not very long
17:00:32 <elliott> Vorpal: that's the one i linked btw
17:00:42 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah it is loading
17:00:51 <kmc> if your hands hurt and you use qwerty i also suggest switching to a better layout
17:00:52 <elliott> they sell an "advanced" "reprogrammable" version but i suspect it does nothing you cannot do more easily in software
17:00:54 <kmc> that will take longer
17:01:09 <elliott> nortti: btw model m is pretty much ergonomically terrible
17:01:21 <Vorpal> kmc, possible, but my hands never hurt with qwerty except on straight traditional keyboards.
17:01:53 <kmc> well i'd say it all matters
17:01:59 <kmc> maybe you only need one or the other change
17:02:02 <kmc> but both could be better long-term
17:02:21 <Vorpal> kmc, since I'm really wide at the shoulders, the small keyboard area of a traditional PC keyboard basically means I need to angle my wrists quite a bit
17:02:29 <Vorpal> which is why a curved keyboard is better
17:02:29 <kmc> i had this experience of changing one thing, and then my hands would eventually start to hurt again, and repeat
17:02:44 <ion> olsner: The per-category installed applications browser isn’t *that* bad, but i admit it could be better.
17:02:46 <kmc> also look out for awkwardly placed keys that you use often
17:02:51 <kmc> that's one great thing about the kinesis
17:03:01 <elliott> if kinesis sold an advantage keyboard with topre switches i'd buy it
17:03:05 <elliott> it'd cost like $9999999 though
17:03:12 <olsner> ion: maybe it is, but I haven't seen it... how do you find it?
17:03:21 <kmc> Vorpal: http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_adv-blk720x471.jpg note the two thumb clusters
17:03:29 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway the advantage is $299 rather than $150 though maybe you can get a deal on it somewhere or buy a second-hand one
17:03:35 <kmc> those have ctrl, alt, backspace, delete, home, end, enter, space, etc
17:03:50 <elliott> Vorpal: i seriously doubt you will find a keyboard that (a) has good switches and (b) a non-traditional layout for cheap though
17:03:56 <kmc> though e.g. i had to bind a second escape key
17:03:59 <kmc> cause i use vim
17:04:10 <kmc> i recently learned about https://github.com/alols/xcape which lets you use capslock as ctrl and capslock as esc at the same time
17:04:20 <kmc> maybe i'll switch over to that
17:04:21 <Vorpal> kmc, two questions: have you used it with 1) emacs 2) various modern games?
17:04:22 <elliott> btw if anyone ever has lots of money
17:04:34 <kmc> not much of either
17:04:45 <elliott> kinesis seems pretty good for emacs
17:04:56 <elliott> ctrl and alt are on opposite sides
17:05:00 <ion> olsner: Click on the applications tab in the dash or hit Windows-A and select “Filter results” if it’s not open already.
17:05:00 <Vorpal> elliott, I can go higher than $150 sure
17:05:02 <kmc> another example, on my laptop keyboard there's this awkward 3-key combination i hit all the time
17:05:10 <kmc> and i'm trying to train myself to use the opposite hand for one of the keys (shift)
17:05:21 <kmc> you just have to pay attention to that stuff
17:05:21 <Vorpal> elliott, one issue is that how will I know without trying it
17:05:27 <kmc> learn hjkl for vim instead of using arrow keys
17:05:30 <Vorpal> not a lot of keyboard shops around here
17:05:41 <Vorpal> elliott, could be costly thus
17:05:51 <ion> FWIW, this is what i see when i hit the Windows™ key or click on the top button in the launcher. It displays the recent applications and files and focuses in the search bar. http://i.imgur.com/VX74S.jpg
17:05:56 <elliott> Vorpal: you could sell it on ebay or something
17:05:58 <Vorpal> elliott, if I knew I would like it I wouldn't hesitate to spend $700, but...
17:06:02 <FreeFull> Arrow keys work while in insert mode though
17:06:04 <kmc> what's $700?
17:06:08 <kmc> FreeFull: yeah
17:06:11 <kmc> so i still use them sometimes
17:06:15 <elliott> datahand is over $700 i think
17:06:18 <elliott> but Vorpal was just using a hyperbolic figure
17:06:21 <kmc> oh, i thought you meant the kinesis advantage
17:06:24 <kmc> which is like $250
17:06:26 <elliott> kmc: do you know about the datahand
17:06:26 <kmc> which is still crazy
17:06:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt I would like datahand though
17:06:38 <kmc> oh yeah this thing
17:06:41 <elliott> kmc: http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/8559/dhhandinunitof2.jpg
17:06:44 <olsner> ion: oh, but that's the search thingy, is that the same as the applications tab?
17:06:48 <elliott> you flick really light magnetic switches to type
17:07:25 <ion> olsner: It’s the button next to the activated home button in the bottom of the windowish thingy. Windows™-A opens it directly.
17:07:37 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt it is very good for playing an FPS with though. Which I sometimes do.
17:07:47 <ion> olsner: Hold down the Windows™ key to see the list of keyboard shortcuts.
17:08:00 <Vorpal> elliott, what about MS natural keyboards?
17:08:09 <Vorpal> I don't know anything about the modern ones
17:08:10 <kmc> Vorpal: how you sit and where your keyboard is are also super important
17:08:20 <kmc> but i don't know much about that
17:08:21 <elliott> Vorpal: here are videos of crazy people using a kinesis advantage https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kinesis+advantage
17:09:22 <ion> I want DataHand <http://youtu.be/_rzFqEqzhmA>, but it’s insanely expensive.
17:09:42 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm sure it can be good if you get used to it, but it is a expensive investment and I'm not purely a typist, so it still need to work for other stuff, such as playing games.
17:09:52 <olsner> ion: hmm, so unity could've avoided most of my rage just by making a different tab of the search thingy open by default?
17:10:09 <kmc> i work at a 7 person company and we have 2 people with the kinesis advantage keyboard
17:10:18 <kmc> and the other guy (not me) has the foot pedals as well
17:10:27 <ion> olsner: Perhaps. I’ve been happy with the default.
17:10:29 <Vorpal> kmc, what do the foot pedals do?
17:10:38 <kmc> you can map them to any keypress or macro
17:10:49 <elliott> Vorpal: well kinesis advantage is just a regular keyboard with a gap... I guess it is bad if you have a game whose shortcuts spill over to the right hand side but you could just rebind those?
17:10:53 <Vorpal> kmc, hey I already have some Saitek rudder pedals
17:11:02 <elliott> Vorpal: I haven't seen any ergonomic-as-in-curved-a-bit keyboards with good switches
17:11:08 <kmc> maybe i should build a crazy foot keyboard to one-up him
17:11:40 <Vorpal> elliott, you can't rebind everything usually. Look at minecraft for example, can't rebind 1-0 for quick slots
17:11:41 <elliott> Vorpal: kinesis sell other keyboards: http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/max-spec.htm http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/freestyle2.htm but idk what switches they use
17:11:55 <elliott> well you can rebind things at the OS level if nothing else
17:12:16 <elliott> or buy the reprogrammable ~kinesis advantage pro~ for only $359! but wait, there's more!!
17:12:22 <Vorpal> "The award winning Kinesis Maxim adjustable ergonomic computer keyboard is the only ergonomic keyboard licensed to use the Microsoft "combo" USB/PS2 technology" <-- lol what
17:13:05 <kmc> shouldn't we all be using chording keyboards by now
17:13:10 <Vorpal> elliott, hrrm, no numpads? oh well
17:13:18 <elliott> Vorpal: numpads are awful anyway :p
17:13:23 <kmc> i have the advantage pro but it wasn't $359
17:13:26 <Vorpal> elliott, except for nethack ;)
17:13:45 <kmc> my #1 complaint with the kinesis is no nipple pointer
17:13:58 <Vorpal> kmc, a track point would have been nice yes
17:14:32 <nortti> 19:13 < kmc> shouldn't we all be using chording keyboards by now // I am building one
17:14:41 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway since I would need to learn to touch type again with something like the advantage... can you get them with Swedish layouts?
17:15:11 <kmc> yeah i started building one too
17:15:25 <kmc> ideally i would mold clay or something to match the resting shape of my hands
17:15:43 <Vorpal> kmc, so a home built datahand?
17:16:00 <FreeFull> Keyboard layouts are fully OS-dependent, as long as the keys have all the right shape
17:16:14 <kmc> for starters the resting shape would be gripping a vertical rod, not flat horizontally
17:16:28 <kmc> but it would be a chording keyboard, not a datahand type
17:16:40 <kmc> just a single switch for each finger
17:16:49 <elliott> Vorpal: i doubt you can get them with other layouts but you shouldn't be looking at the keyboard if you are learning to touch type anyway :P
17:17:09 <Vorpal> elliott, useful to learn where the key is at all I guess
17:17:10 <FreeFull> I want one of those keyboards with blank keycaps
17:17:24 <elliott> Vorpal: i really doubt the adjustment period is that bad, though... if not for the space between the two sides it would just be a regular keyboard with a slope
17:17:37 <elliott> FreeFull: don't buy a das keyboard
17:17:53 <kmc> but it makes you a real ninja rockstar
17:18:02 <nortti> kmc: you won't have enought combos for alphabet+numbers
17:18:04 <Vorpal> elliott, the stuff under the thumbs is different but eh
17:18:24 <elliott> you can buy label-less replacement keycaps from places
17:18:38 <Vorpal> kmc, where is alt on the advantage?
17:18:39 <nortti> kmc: ah. you are making 2 hand one?
17:18:43 <FreeFull> Switching keycaps around would be a pain
17:18:43 <kmc> nortti: it would be, yeah
17:18:51 <elliott> Vorpal: clear solution is to switch to colemak simultaneously
17:19:02 <kmc> well maybe one hand, plus another hand that is basically a mouse or trackball but has a few other keyboard modifiers
17:19:04 <elliott> FreeFull: less of a pain than typing on a keyboard as low-quality as das keyboard
17:19:13 <FreeFull> My only requirement is that the keyboard is the standard big-enter layout
17:19:17 <elliott> well it's better-quality than your average rubber dome probably but it's really bad
17:19:30 <kmc> Vorpal: it's on the thumb cluster
17:19:31 <kmc> one of them
17:19:37 <kmc> mine are all remapped
17:19:50 <kmc> actually i think alt isn't but i don't use it very much
17:19:51 <elliott> i think i would be unable to use an advantage because my hands are too small and i wouldn't be able to use the thumb bits
17:19:52 <FreeFull> I used to have a model m but it broke
17:20:10 <kmc> my housemate has a pckeyboard model m successor
17:20:13 <kmc> it's really really loud
17:20:20 <nortti> kmc: I am building 1 handed one with state 2 state switch keys that thumb can access
17:20:24 <kmc> he is one floor above me right now and it sounds like machine gun fire
17:20:31 <elliott> i think model m is overrated
17:20:36 <elliott> the switches are way too heavy
17:20:36 <kmc> i had one for a while
17:20:46 <kmc> first an original m and then a pckeyboard one
17:20:51 <nortti> model m is nice but not as nice as some say
17:21:04 <kmc> they feel satisfying to use but they aren't really ergonomic in any sense
17:21:27 <Vorpal> elliott, so if I would go for something that wasn't such a huge investment, what about a MS natural keyboard, they are certainly cheaper. And the older models at least were quite comfortable
17:21:38 <Vorpal> what sort of key caps do they have
17:21:58 <kmc> DIM a From 1 To 10
17:22:23 <kmc> anyway yeah i think having a good chair and desk is at least as important as having a good keyboard
17:22:42 <kmc> but i fail at these things
17:22:43 <elliott> Vorpal: aren't those rubber dome
17:22:51 <Vorpal> elliott, that is what I'm wondering
17:22:55 <elliott> i can't really in good conscience recommend a rubber dome keyboard even though i'm typing on one right now
17:23:07 <Vorpal> I still think microsoft make the best mice, well traditional mice at least. Never liked trackballs and such
17:23:27 <kmc> i'm typing on a thinkpad keyboard right now, which is a scissor mechanism above a rubber dome
17:23:34 <kmc> they're pretty good as far as laptop keyboards go
17:23:39 <FreeFull> Vorpal: microsoft mice are just rebranded logitech mice
17:24:00 <kmc> i hear the new one (island layout) is also very good, but i am fearful that they've screwed it all up massively
17:24:04 <Vorpal> FreeFull, hm, pretty sure they use a different outer shell too?
17:24:14 <kmc> however it's true that the internal mechanism of the "classic" keyboard did change all the time
17:24:19 <elliott> Vorpal: http://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/index.php this uses cherry switches apparentlt
17:24:30 <kmc> btw fuck colemak
17:24:41 <Vorpal> elliott, lol, that looks crazy
17:24:45 <kmc> what's the point of being 50% qwerty
17:24:49 <kmc> you still need to relearn how to type
17:24:51 <elliott> kmc: thats not the design goal of colemak
17:24:55 <kmc> and dvoark is more standard, it's in every OS
17:24:58 <kmc> oh, what is it then
17:25:01 <Vorpal> FreeFull, the logitech mice I used haven't been nearly as good as my "Microsoft Comfort Optical Mouse 3000"
17:25:14 <Vorpal> FreeFull, which Logitech mouse is that based on then
17:25:17 <kmc> elliott: looking at that trulyergonomic keyboard makes me feel like i'm drunk
17:25:33 <nortti> does anyone know how to use one handed dvorak on linux?
17:25:47 <elliott> kmc: well "easy to learn for qwerty typers" is one of the goals I think but I hear it actually fares better than Dvorak
17:25:49 <elliott> e.g. "According to carpalx, which is the most extensive research on keyboard layouts done so far, Colemak wins over Dvorak and QWERTY in all different typing effort models."
17:26:02 <kmc> interesting
17:26:09 <elliott> kmc: also one of the reasons for the qwerty closeness is to make common computer shortcuts less awful to type compared to dvorak it seems
17:26:20 <elliott> (note that that quote is from the colemak site so it's obviously biased but i don't see any reason the study itself (http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/) would be biased)
17:26:49 <elliott> http://colemak.com/wiki/index.php?title=FAQ#What.27s_wrong_with_the_Dvorak_layout.3F
17:27:00 <elliott> if i switched from qwerty it would probably be to colemak
17:27:04 <elliott> i doubt i can be bothered any time soon though
17:27:09 <kmc> is this carpalx thing based on actual science (e.g. human physiology)
17:27:42 <kmc> or is it one of those "i'm a programmer therefore i must be an expert in all fields" things
17:27:49 <Deewiant> kmc: RTFA http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?keyboard_evaluation
17:28:01 <kmc> i was looking for that
17:28:19 <kmc> so where are the citations
17:28:24 <elliott> http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?worst_layout
17:28:57 <FreeFull> The only word that's awkward for me to type on a qwerty keyboard is qwerty itself
17:28:59 <kmc> elliott: so that FAQ does say "The main problem with Dvorak is that it's too difficult and frustrating to learn for existing QWERTY typists because it's so different from QWERTY."
17:29:33 <kmc> 'Placing 'L' on the QWERTY 'P' position causes excessive strain on the right pinky.' what? i hit that key with the ring finger
17:29:33 <elliott> right but then it says other things
17:29:37 <kmc> using the pinky would be absurd
17:29:42 <kmc> maybe for people with much smaller hands
17:30:23 <elliott> advantages of colemak: you can type "arse" on the home row
17:30:42 <kmc> "'F' is on the QWERTY 'Y' position which is a difficult stretch on normal keyboards." so? f is an uncommon key
17:30:47 <kmc> something will be hard to hit
17:30:57 <kmc> elliott: i can type shithead
17:31:35 <kmc> anyway i don't doubt that colemak has some advantages (and dvorak some) but i've never seen anything to outweigh the fact that dvorak is already installed on most computers in the world and i can sit down and switch to it with 15 seconds of effort
17:32:25 <FreeFull> elliott: But on a qwerty you can type arse with your left hand
17:32:31 <nortti> why is it so hard to find info how to use one-handed dvorak on linux?
17:33:09 <FreeFull> nortti: Because not many people do that maybe
17:33:11 <pikhq> It's not like using my pinky for typing is excessive stress.
17:34:13 <kmc> so yeah this carpalx thing has a big complicated model, with zero citations to any existing literature or any empirical studies of the suitability of that model
17:34:17 <kmc> why are programmers so bad at science
17:34:48 <pikhq> Programmers have this idea that if you can measure it, you should optimize it.
17:34:57 <kmc> but they can't measure it!
17:35:00 <pikhq> And damn the notion that you need to optimize things you actually want to be optimal.
17:35:07 <FreeFull> kmc: How big is your sample of programmers?
17:35:09 <kmc> i mean, they are measuring some completely pulled-out-of-ass thing
17:35:11 <kmc> FreeFull: c.c
17:35:19 <pikhq> Whether or not the metric is relevant is not necessary. :)
17:35:32 <pikhq> We have a metric, now to optimize for it.
17:35:45 <Deewiant> Nobody wants the optimal solution, the most optimized solution is where it's at.
17:35:53 <Deewiant> I.e. the one which took longest to optimize.
17:36:08 <kmc> bonus points if you use something fancy like genetic algorithm even where a simple gradient descent would suffice
17:36:17 <elliott> apparently this guy invented port knocking
17:36:32 <kmc> it's a fine idea that i'm sure many people have thought of
17:38:35 <kmc> when i was young i coded a GA in Perl to figure out how to most efficiently burn all my pirated music and tv shows onto CD-Rs
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17:40:58 <olsner> hmm, this datahand thing - is it actually a good idea to minimize hand/finger movement?
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17:44:16 <Deewiant> CD-Rs didn't appear until the late 80s, and burners cost thousands of dollars until the mid-90s
17:47:06 <FreeFull> Right now people just buy a bunch of 3TB HDDs and put everything on them
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18:25:20 <kmc> FreeFull: yeah i just bought 6 of those
18:26:50 <kmc> it does seem extravagent but having random access to everything without thinking is pretty useful
18:27:53 <kmc> yeah i used CD-Rs because i was a kid and didn't have money for extravagences like DVD burning
18:27:58 <kmc> but i did get a DVD burner eventually
18:28:25 <kmc> also i had an MP3-CD player
18:29:33 <Vorpal> FreeFull, I only have two eSATA ports though
18:30:19 <kmc> you can get external enclosures that use multiple drives and plug into a single eSATA port
18:30:33 <kmc> MP3-CD players were the best
18:30:51 <kmc> at a time when a nice flash-based MP3 player had 64MB of storage
18:30:53 <pikhq> Funnily enough, I have never owned a DVD burner.
18:31:07 <pikhq> I own a late 90s CD burner still. I use it maybe once a year, if not less.
18:31:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, I have one in my current computer
18:31:18 <fizzie> We used to go over to Tallinn to buy DVD-R's; a lot cheaper there, partially due to them not having this extra tax-like "renumeration for private copying" price they add to all empty media, and I think hard drives and such too these days.
18:31:18 <kmc> you could fit 10x that on a CD-R that cost 50¢
18:31:21 <Vorpal> and a DVD-RAM device in my laptop
18:31:26 <pikhq> It still *works* is the amazing bit.
18:31:28 <Vorpal> FreeFull, hm that would work
18:31:46 <kmc> fizzie: did they sell them duty-free on the ferry
18:31:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, but what about DVD reader?
18:32:10 <pikhq> Yes, I have a DVD-ROM drive.
18:32:47 <pikhq> And I mostly use the DVD drive for CD ripping. (what, so I like FLAC)
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18:33:00 <fizzie> kmc: Sadly, not that I know; you had to go to a shop on land. (We went to some really obscure "abandoned warehouse"-style-atmosphere place someone had heard of.)
18:34:01 <kmc> we had this really sketchy traveling computer show in Iowa that would set up shop for a week in the livestock showing barn at the faregrounds
18:34:08 <fizzie> I have about 80% unused of the last stack of 50 "PRINCO" brand DVD-R's I got there.
18:35:26 <kmc> also Iowa LAN parties were great
18:35:45 <kmc> because people would come from all over the state, from rural places that had really crappy dial-up or satellite Internet
18:35:49 <kmc> so they would come to play games
18:36:01 <kmc> but they would *also* come to run KaZaA in the background at full speed
18:36:17 <kmc> downloading as much warez and porn as possible over 24 hours
18:36:28 <kmc> and share it locally as well
18:37:20 <fizzie> Downloading lots of stuff was quite a large part of the Assembly experience too, back before broadband days. Nowadays it's just not so exciting. :/
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18:40:23 <fizzie> The ones I've been to don't exactly have much qualifications for participation, except for having enough money for the ticket.
18:40:38 <fizzie> So it doesn't sound like it should be a problem.
18:41:44 <FreeFull> Getting there in the first place would be the problem for me
18:43:30 <fizzie> Where did you live again? Sweden?
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18:54:05 <fizzie> For the record, the "copying-renumeration-tax" for a single DVD is 0.60 EUR; that's kind of much when the actual price is something like 0.20 EUR/disc. (Price calculated from the first 100-disc spindle from newegg; is perhaps representative.)
19:02:07 <kmc> wow, that is outrageous
19:02:13 <kmc> i didn't know they had that in not-US
19:02:20 <kmc> but it makes sense because the US writes copyright law for the rest of the world
19:03:38 <fizzie> We started it in 1984; the US apparently in 1992.
19:03:44 <fizzie> (And Germany in 1960s.)
19:03:48 <kmc> with tape??
19:04:09 <fizzie> Yes, it used to be called "kasettimaksu".
19:04:21 <kmc> home taping is killing music!
19:04:27 <fizzie> Applied to C cassettes and VHS tapes, I believe.
19:05:21 <fizzie> Currently in Finland it also applies to just regular external USB HDs, no matter what you're going to be storing there; 9 EUR for 50-250 GB; 12 EUR for 250-1000 GB; 18 EUR for > 1 TB.
19:05:24 <kmc> you're gonna go far
19:05:42 <kmc> you're gonna fly high, you're never gonna die you're gonna make it if you try they're gonna *love* you
19:05:45 <fizzie> (But it does not apply if you buy a external USB HD chassis and a regular SATA drive separately.)
19:05:47 <Deewiant> fizzie: Re. the DVDs: fi.wikipedia says the tax is 74% of the price
19:06:22 <fizzie> Deewiant: I think they've changed the numbers; those are from 2007.
19:06:45 <fizzie> Deewiant: The 0.60 EUR/disc came from http://www.tulli.fi/fi/suomen_tulli/julkaisut_ja_esitteet/kasikirjat/rajoituskasikirja/liitetiedostot/hyvitysmaksu.pdf that's dated December 2011.
19:07:09 <Deewiant> fizzie: It's correct, the 2007 bit is just for the price of the disc without the tax
19:08:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: The latest is http://www.hyvitysmaksu.fi/teosto/hymysivut.nsf/0/0f085260b8604de9c22573b1003c22ec/$FILE/Asetus2012_FI.pdf and it too says 0.60 EUR per disc.
19:08:24 <fizzie> Deewiant: Unlike fi.wikipedia, which claims 0.73.
19:08:36 <Deewiant> fizzie: It says "arvonlisäveroineen", and 0.6 * 1.22 is ~0.73
19:08:41 <pikhq> atriq: I'm with kmc on this.
19:08:46 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh; right, then.
19:09:04 <elliott> atriq: why do you have a cigar
19:09:07 <Deewiant> fizzie: Although shouldn't it be 1.23 these days? In which case it's off by a cent
19:09:19 <fizzie> Deewiant: I think it should, yes.
19:09:20 <Deewiant> Unless they're rounding down; whatever
19:09:33 <fizzie> Maybe it's not all that important.
19:09:42 <Deewiant> In any case, the non-tax price of a disc is probably lower so it's probablby more than 74% these days.
19:10:50 <fizzie> Deewiant: As mentioned, my first hit for a 100-disc spindle from abroad was 0.20 EUR/disc. I'm sure you could find cheaper too.
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19:11:25 <fizzie> (Or 24.99 USD / 100 discs, to be exact; it maps to something pretty close.)
19:11:33 <atriq> elliott, ironic birthday present
19:11:42 <fizzie> atriq: Sometimes it's just a cigar.
19:12:30 <Deewiant> fizzie: They cite (a broken link to) mbnet's hintaseuranta, which would probably have a bit higher price due to the cost of importing. (I don't know how they found a tax-free price there, though.)
19:12:45 <pikhq> Is atriq a tee-totaller?
19:12:49 <olsner> does the box say it's actually a pipe?
19:12:49 <elliott> fizzie: do they have computers in Finland
19:13:07 <atriq> pikhq, nah, I just don't like the smell of tobacco
19:13:10 <fizzie> elliott: I've heard there's, like, five.
19:13:18 <pikhq> elliott: No, they have konnpyuuta.
19:13:22 <kmc> 'irony' means "bad ideas done on purpose" these days
19:13:41 <atriq> I'm effectively teetotal, but it's personal preference, not ideological
19:13:52 <atriq> Except I like wine on occassion
19:14:11 <pikhq> atriq: Yeah, there's a rather big difference between "don't like it" and "I am morally opposed". :)
19:14:13 <Phantom_Hoover> he looks quite dashing but i always gag when he walks past
19:14:37 <atriq> Someone I know got ironically given a pipe for his birthday
19:15:15 <olsner> I had a fried who claimed to be a teetotaller because he was only drinking a little
19:15:17 <kmc> sometimes i wonder if i should take up smoking e-cigarettes
19:16:20 <fizzie> There was a couple with some... things, that I think were e-cigarettes; they looked really scifi, and suspicious, and I'm still not quite sure what was up there.
19:16:54 <kmc> yeah "electronic cigarettes" sounds like something a lazy sci-fi writer would invent to sound more future-y
19:16:59 <fizzie> They didn't look like regular cigarettes, which I understand some (many?) attempt to look like.
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19:17:12 <kmc> digital bath
19:17:31 <fizzie> I think they kind of looked like light saber handles from Star Wars. Except they kept smoking them.
19:17:34 <kmc> i like the effects of nicotine on occasion, but i don't want to smoke tobacco
19:18:19 <kmc> when i owned a vape i should have tried vaping tobacco in it
19:18:34 <kmc> that's what an e-cig is basically
19:18:46 <kmc> also i wonder if you can make e-joints by analogy
19:18:56 <kmc> temperature needs to be adjusted
19:18:56 <fizzie> A combination lightsaber/e-cigarette: good idea, or best idea? (Just remember which end is which.)
19:19:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, how would they work, these e-cigs?
19:19:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think electricity is involved.
19:19:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, is tobacco still involved?
19:20:17 <fizzie> But really, you're asking a guy who's still not sure whether the only ones I've seen were e-cigs or lightsabers.
19:20:41 <fizzie> It just vaporises something, I know that much.
19:20:48 <Vorpal> well both do that yeah
19:21:08 <fizzie> Yes, perhaps the combined model can share some parts.
19:21:17 <olsner> given that lightsabers are lightsaber-handle-sized and e-cigs are cigarette-sized, it should be fairly easy to tell them apart
19:21:37 <kmc> it vaporizes 'a propylene glycol- or glycerin- or polyethylene glycol-based liquid solution '
19:21:53 <fizzie> olsner: Maybe they've made thinner handles these days. Anyway, they weren't made up like fake cigarettes.
19:22:16 <elliott> technically everything fizzie says is made up
19:22:38 <Phantom_Hoover> OK fizzie but you're going to look like a right tit if you're trying to smoke a lightsabre handle
19:22:44 <Vorpal> kmc, and that gives the same result as nicotine?
19:23:05 <olsner> presumably, the solution contains nicotine
19:23:11 <Sgeo_> Oh, there's a flaw in Clojure that I thought of, but I may have mentioned it before
19:23:30 <kmc> Sgeo_: i don't think you've ever mentioned Clojure here, actually
19:23:48 <fizzie> I like that wikipedia article, it's so encyclopædic: "Newer e cigarettes are using the two piece design now. You now have a battery and a disposable cartomizer. The old three piece method was bad because the cartridge did not hold much "e-juice" and the atomizers were burning up after one or two refills. With the new two piece you get a better "throat hit" and plenty of vapor."
19:24:18 <fizzie> The tone is *exactly* like, say, Encyclopædia Britannica.
19:24:41 <kmc> http://www.thedailychronic.net/2012/8422/thc-e-cig-goes-to-market/
19:24:50 <kmc> encyclopædophile
19:27:07 <ion> derpyclopædia
19:29:00 <kmc> i actually find it remarkable how consistent the tone is on wikipedia
19:29:13 <kmc> given the number of editors
19:29:20 <kmc> there are some aberrations like this article, of course
19:29:58 <kmc> but mostly people converge to a shared style in a way that's almost creepy
19:30:09 <fizzie> It's the mind control, I'd say.
19:30:18 <kmc> another explanation is that there are many authors but few editors; people add content and then the core editors massage the style
19:30:24 <fizzie> I think what they had were maybe something a tiny bit like http://unlimitedecigs.com/store/products/mega-ego-ce5-e-cigarette although I didn't really get a close look.
19:30:32 <kmc> which i think is supported by the data on edits
19:30:43 <fizzie> But that thing has some slight lightsabreish vibes in there.
19:30:49 <kmc> at one point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektrichka was less of an encyclopedia article and more a guide on how to ride trains without paying
19:31:26 <kmc> i rode a suburban train in riga without paying so maybe i've been dog-riding
19:33:25 <kmc> also in warszawa the gap between train and platform was like 30 cm or more, wtf
19:34:27 <olsner> fizzie: including 2 MEGA EGO batteries, nice
19:34:41 <fizzie> olsner: Just in case you're having ego problems.
19:35:25 <fizzie> Apparently you can have one of 14 different colors for that middle translucent bit, too.
19:35:40 <olsner> how do you know if you're running low on ego?
19:36:03 <fizzie> There's a handy scale printed on top of the EGO-CE5 Cartomizer.
19:36:22 <fizzie> (Also available in 14 different colors!)
19:36:32 <kmc> wow, red bull flavored nicotine liquid
19:36:36 <kmc> just what i've always wanted
19:39:59 <Sgeo_> I kind of like the taste of Red Bull, I think
19:40:10 <Sgeo_> Although only had Red Bull twice
19:40:16 <atriq> I was on a train today
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19:47:45 <atriq> Any in particular?
19:49:38 <olsner> how fashionably geeky to point out your distaste for sports and its followers
19:54:52 <elliott> olsner: better than your os
20:00:07 <kmc> "sports people"?
20:00:14 <kmc> atriq: what kind of train?
20:00:18 <kmc> what was the track gauge
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20:01:22 <fizzie> "How much does this building weigh?" is a standard question to ask on the company excursions organized by the CS student "guild"/organization.
20:01:42 <fizzie> I don't know how many times there's been a serious answer.
20:03:16 <kmc> 10 decibuildings
20:03:19 <pikhq> fizzie: It weighs 1 Biru
20:03:35 <olsner> you should organize your excursions to happen after the group of students who study the calculation of weights of buildings
20:06:35 <Phantom_Hoover> <olsner> how fashionably geeky to point out your distaste for sports and its followers
20:07:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what do you mean with sports people?
20:07:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, like athletes? or sport nerds?
20:08:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also walking with ski poles or whatever they are called in English
20:08:15 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I'm wearing a jokey science shirt
20:08:24 <Taneb> It says "Science gives me a hadron"
20:09:12 <Phantom_Hoover> one of my analysis teachers seems to make a point of coming in in novelty t-shirts
20:09:59 <Taneb> I often wear a Homestuck shirt
20:10:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so what is your opinion about people using ski poles when walking?
20:10:21 <kmc> that's a good shirt
20:10:42 <Taneb> kmc, it has similar origins to my cigar
20:10:45 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, would if I coulsd
20:11:29 <Phantom_Hoover> i have a shirt from nasa with some terribly-typeset equations for escape velocity on it as a gift
20:12:34 <Taneb> Oh god I just said that
20:12:38 <Taneb> Almost unironically
20:13:22 <Taneb> But Tumblr is doing bad things to me
20:13:54 <kmc> haters gonna make some valid points
20:14:11 <Taneb> Now I'm gonna suscribe to the Haskell tag
20:14:18 <Phantom_Hoover> wow man maybe you should leave tumblr alone if it's going to change your sexuality
20:17:35 <pikhq> Taneb: You pervosexual!
20:25:16 <fizzie> olsner: Do you suppose those people that do architecture do that kind of thing?
20:25:34 <fizzie> We've got a department of that.
20:25:45 <fizzie> And maybe some other kind of building engineering thing.
20:28:02 -!- constant has changed nick to function.
20:28:20 <fizzie> "The Master’s Programme in Structural Engineering provides students with a solid knowledge of structural engineering and mechanics, building physics, ageing and life time management of structures, construction economics and management as well as building materials technology, foundation engineering or building services technology."
20:28:37 <fizzie> It doesn't sound too far off.
20:29:03 <fizzie> (Sadly, the companies selected for the excursions tend to differ.)
20:31:46 <elliott> Taneb: these fireworks are lam
20:31:47 <elliott> Taneb: these fireworks are lame
20:32:09 <elliott> actually all fireworks are lame so that is not saying much
20:32:10 <Taneb> Hence (lam -> lame)
20:32:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, possibly you are not the best person to evaluate firework quality then
20:34:02 <Vorpal> <elliott> actually all fireworks are lame so that is not saying much <-- yeah, they are kind of cool the first time, but the novelty quickly fades
20:35:39 <olsner> the inhabitants of hexham have given up and are trying to blow the whole thing up
20:39:44 <pikhq> Yes, the city of Roppiki Buta.
20:41:02 <kmc> no some fireworks are fucking sweet
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20:58:28 <olsner> three times as much pig as twin pigs
21:00:21 <fizzie> Six Pigs is probably like the UK version of Six Flags. (Which I understand is a kinda thing.)
21:11:51 <pikhq> olsner: Yes, six pigs is hexham
21:12:06 <pikhq> Well, maybe it should be Roppiki Butaniku
21:12:25 <pikhq> 六匹豚 does look awesome though
21:13:32 <olsner> oh, that must be german hexham
21:13:32 <Taneb> Sounds black speech
21:13:56 <Phantom_Hoover> how appropriate for a place that was formerly slang for hell
21:14:13 <fizzie> Urkunz sounds like a site of a nuclear accident.
21:16:12 <olsner> it might be something like chwechmochyn in welsh
21:28:54 <olsner> fungot: say something about hexham
21:28:54 <fungot> olsner: she needs to know. do you agree with me, i'd probably be good at that too
21:29:30 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:31:02 <fungot> quintopia: but i wouldn't
21:32:49 <fizzie> fungot: Wouldn't repeat, or wouldn't stop?
21:32:50 <fungot> fizzie: like that, although i have no idea what the problem might be
21:32:56 <elliott> pikhq: do you know anything about logrotate
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21:44:27 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: "豚肉" is the word for pig meat.
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21:48:20 <Sgeo_> There exists a thing called OK! Magazine.
21:48:48 <Taneb> There's also Hello!
21:49:06 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Also, 匹 is not 四, they just look similar.
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22:12:30 <Taneb> When did this happen
22:13:33 <fizzie> You've been a Taneb for more than two hours now.
22:14:00 <Taneb> I'll get there eventually
22:14:01 <fizzie> There's a magazine called "Wired".
22:14:09 <Taneb> And an esolang called Wierd
22:14:34 <Taneb> I'm gonna get some sleep now
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22:17:20 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Sun Nov 4 22:17:19
22:18:31 <kmc> my UTC offset changed today!
22:20:22 <kmc> @localtime kmc
22:20:25 <lambdabot> Local time for kmc is Sun Nov 4 17:21:26 2012
22:21:01 <fizzie> Finland's UTC offset changed last weekend.
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23:26:58 <zzo38> Do you like this??????
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23:32:35 <Sgeo_> (Disclaimer: Previous statement should not necessarily be regarded as correct)
23:48:00 <zzo38> nooodl_: Which one did you not understand?
23:48:12 <nooodl_> <zzo38> Do you like this??????
23:56:44 <zzo38> Which esolangs can be implemented using hardware description language?
00:15:37 <quintopia> if you like writing lots of HDL code
00:20:56 <zzo38> The only HDL codes I have written are FamicomHDL, although I have read Verilog codes for the Amber processor core and for other things.
00:22:14 <kmc> what's FamicomHDL?
00:22:34 <zzo38> Hardware description for Famicom cartridges
00:22:51 <zzo38> It is actually a library in Haskell
00:23:15 <shachaf> 16:22 <jrajav> The monty python of nerds
00:24:30 <kmc> isn't that monty python
00:24:36 <kmc> also http://xkcd.com/16/
00:24:39 <zzo38> nrom = do { prgrom <- makeROM 0; chrrom <- makeROM 16384; connects $ zip cpuAddress (take 14 $ addressPins prgrom); connects $ zip cpuData (dataPins prgrom); connects $ zip ppuAddress (take 13 $ addressPins chrrom); ... and so on.
00:25:30 <elliott> war and peace, truly the crime and punishment of 19th-century russian novels
00:25:34 <elliott> btw i have read neither of those
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00:26:41 <zzo38> Even though NROM is the simplest mapper (well, almost; there is a simpler one that has neither CHR ROM nor CHR RAM), you still need ten lines of code to program it.
00:27:51 <zzo38> And of course you also need to import (or define) functions such as makeROM, connects, cpuAddress, etc
00:28:59 <zzo38> There are other hardware description languages, I do not know a lot about them. I know a few things of Verilog since I have read the codes to implement the Amber processor core.
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01:13:31 <elliott> kmc: do you know anything about linux networking
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01:22:51 <kmc> that is a pretty vague question though
01:23:00 <kmc> whatcha whatcha whatcha want
01:25:56 <elliott> well i thought i figured out what i wanted
01:25:58 <elliott> but then i became less sure
01:26:21 <elliott> what i am wondering is how the hell do you communicate with tcp_diag from wizmode
01:26:38 <elliott> kernel docs for /proc/net/tcp{,6} say that they are deprecated in favour of tcp_diag
01:26:45 <elliott> but i have no idea how to use it and google is no help
01:26:50 <elliott> maybe i should read the docs or something
01:27:10 <elliott> ps what i am trying to do is figure out the UID of the owner of a TCP connection
01:27:37 <kmc> i have no idea what that is
01:28:14 <kmc> tcp_diag or wizmode
01:28:59 <kmc> netstat -p will give you PIDs
01:29:27 <elliott> i am trying to do it programmatically
01:29:30 <elliott> maybe i will look at netstat's source
01:29:49 <kmc> they are probably terrifying though
01:29:58 <kmc> sometimes when i want to see how a program does its magic, i use strace
01:30:06 <elliott> i hear something about tcp_diag using netlink sockets
01:30:11 <elliott> i don't know how to use netlink sockets
01:30:18 <elliott> i barely even know what netlink sockets are!
01:30:27 <kmc> a trainwreck
01:31:05 <shachaf> strace: greater program or greatest program
01:31:25 <kmc> the linux developers decided that there aren't enough ways for userspace to communicate with the kernel (you know, every system call and every file in procfs or sysfs or debugfs) and so there should be a special socket type for communicating with the kernel as well
01:31:57 <kmc> oh i forgot "every device file" and "every ioctl on every device file"
01:32:32 <kmc> they couldn't even be like "here's a UNIX socket with the kernel on the other end"
01:32:38 <elliott> kmc: okay well this sounds like a distinct regression from /proc/net/tcp, yes
01:32:42 <kmc> it has to be a new socket type which behaves mostly like UNIX sockets
01:32:44 <shachaf> «Netlink was designed for and is used to transfer miscellaneous networking information between the Linux kernel space and user space processes.»
01:32:45 <kmc> but not quite
01:32:54 <shachaf> Miscellaneous networking information.
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01:35:40 <elliott> what package is netstat in
01:40:50 <elliott> kmc: "net-tools are deprecated and you should be using iproute2 instead: http://www.archlinux.org/news/deprecation-of-net-tools/" "So I think I have to use ss instead of netstat now. Thanks!"
01:42:39 <elliott> "This April marked the ten year anniversary of the last net-tools release."
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01:46:09 <kmc> let's rewrite everything again because it's shit
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01:46:41 <kmc> you already said that once
01:46:47 <kmc> am i obliged to kill you twice now
01:47:10 <kmc> will that make you into a zombie
01:47:15 <elliott> sendmsg(3, {msg_name(12)={sa_family=AF_NETLINK, pid=0, groups=00000000}, msg_iov(1)=[{"L\0\0\0\22\0\1\3@\342\1\0\0\0\0\0\2\0\0\0\0\0\0\0
01:47:15 <elliott> \0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0"..., 76}], msg_controllen=0, msg_flags=0}, 0) = 76
01:47:21 <elliott> kmc: so tell me about using netlink
01:50:11 <ais523> hmm, I reckon that in messages that are clearly mostly out of the ASCII range
01:50:23 <ais523> debuggers should escape every character, rather than just unprintable characters
01:50:32 <ais523> because it almost certainly isn't ASCII, and consistent presentation is useful
01:51:15 <coppro> I like the approach of "display as a string if it contains no unprintable characters, as a list of numbers otherwise
01:51:39 <ais523> well if you have a long run of printable characters
01:51:41 <ais523> you want to display as text
01:51:46 <ais523> in case it's binary data with embedded text
01:53:39 <ais523> but I don't like options very much, and in that case it'd slow me down to have to set it
01:53:59 <ais523> there's enough information for the computer to work it out automatically in this case
01:54:05 <ais523> so I shouldn't have to tell it what to do
01:54:34 <coppro> next you're going to tell me you're working on boehm GC
01:55:11 <ais523> no, I'm not, is there something wrong with it that I'd need to fix?
01:55:52 <coppro> just the "it looks like a duck, so it's a duck" argument is similar
01:56:31 <ais523> oh, you mean how it looks for things that might be pointers
02:01:14 <kmc> ais523: i think strace has that option
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02:27:14 <elliott> i guess i want NETLINK_TCPDIAG
02:27:19 <elliott> i wonder if there's any docs
02:28:16 <elliott> http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/shemminger/iproute2.git;a=blob;f=misc/ss.c;h=a0ab2e97cb8aea3f684d07b38df1cdc278c57bbe;hb=HEAD time to read this mess
02:31:02 <kmc> if you want to read 3000 lines of uncommented C code then I recommend you read Ksplice instead, it's a lot more interesting
02:32:04 <elliott> kmc: but does it solve my problem
02:32:08 <kmc> smoking salvia is like that TNG episode "The Inner Light" except that the dead civilization that possesses Picard is a race of ten-dimensional hexagons
02:42:21 <elliott> IMO kmc should write this code for me
02:44:26 <kmc> as your attorney i advise you to take a hit of some 20x salvia
02:44:40 <kmc> perhaps it will fix your netlink sockets
02:45:11 <elliott> i hear salvia is awful though
02:45:30 <copumpkin> I hear people react very differently to it
02:45:37 <copumpkin> I tried sucking on the leaves for a bit and it was disgusting
02:45:41 <kmc> it's pretty terrifying
02:45:48 <kmc> n.b. you should not heed my legal advice
02:45:53 <kmc> i am not a real attorney
02:46:10 <kmc> even though i do use latin abbreviations like "n.b."
02:46:36 <kmc> nota bene!
02:47:15 <elliott> kmc: none of your advice so far has been legal though
02:47:18 <shachaf> kmc: Did you know the Hebrew letters for "P. S." are N B?
02:47:42 <copumpkin> shachaf: that sounds confusing. They should've designed hebrew better
02:47:48 <elliott> actually is salvia still legal
02:48:06 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure sage is legal.
02:48:08 <copumpkin> I bought a tube of it in boston a couple of years ago
02:48:17 <copumpkin> shachaf: there are many varieties of salvia *
02:48:45 <shachaf> As long as any of them are legal, you can say that salvia is legal.
02:49:36 <kmc> yeah always amused by people who go to home depot and buy the first plant that says "salvia" on the label and try to smoke it
02:49:55 <kmc> i should grow some herbs
02:49:59 <kmc> best way to have fresh herbs
02:50:08 <shachaf> Why would you smoke drugs?
02:50:10 <kmc> oh and the oyster mushrooms may not be doomed after all
03:00:06 <elliott> http://www.spinics.net/lists/netdev/msg214494.html
03:00:10 <elliott> so tcpdiag is itself deprecated
03:00:13 <elliott> and sockdiag is the latest thing
03:00:24 <kmc> hahahahahahaha
03:00:33 <kmc> <kmc> let's rewrite everything again because it's shit
03:00:40 <kmc> SURPRISE IT'S STILL SHIT
03:00:40 <Bike> you sure you don't want to try smoking?
03:01:03 <elliott> kmc: the only thing that isn't shit is @
03:01:31 <kmc> because @ is the fixed point of the "let's rewrite everything again because it's shit" operator
03:01:40 <kmc> the... greatest fixed point
03:02:08 <shachaf> Greatest in what ordering?
03:02:14 <kmc> the greatest ordering
03:06:25 <kmc> obviously not
03:18:44 -!- function has changed nick to trout.
03:25:14 <kmc> apparently romney's victory rally is in Boston
03:42:04 <pikhq> Well he *was* Governor of the state.
03:42:06 <kmc> you have to have a victory rally
03:42:09 <kmc> even if you're going to lose
03:42:14 <copumpkin> well, I hope I won't get to use those rotten eggs I had saved up for a rainy day
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04:04:58 <shachaf> elliott: Do you feel like fixing a bug in lens?
04:06:25 <shachaf> https://github.com/ekmett/lens/issues/80
04:07:01 <shachaf> [19:42] shachaf will look into it later.
04:07:06 <shachaf> This is me looking into it.
04:08:53 <elliott> i don't have commit rights
04:09:20 <shachaf> I don't quite like the holesOf solution.
04:11:22 <elliott> I forget how sizeof works.
04:11:24 <elliott> When does it require sizeof?
04:11:27 <elliott> When does it require parens?
04:11:42 <elliott> Or does it need to be "sizeof(value)"? And is that actually "sizeof (value)"?
04:11:55 <shachaf> sizeof isn't a function or function-alike.
04:12:02 <elliott> ISTR you need parens sometimes.
04:12:14 <shachaf> You can think of it as the sizeof the cast, I guess.
04:12:21 <shachaf> Or something, I don't know.
04:12:33 <shachaf> Anyway values don't need parentheses.
04:13:53 <kmc> C syntax is pretty wacky
04:14:05 <kmc> there isn't that much of it, but there are some strange bits
04:14:16 <kmc> "declaration follows use" is just dumb
04:15:55 <elliott> kmc: Is it portable to do struct { struct nlmsghdr blah; struct my_actual_request req; }? And then use &thatstruct in an iovec.
04:16:02 <elliott> Like, can't padding mess that up?
04:16:09 <elliott> Or does Linux guarantee it's OK?
04:16:26 <shachaf> elliott: what are you doing !!
04:17:49 <kmc> hey this lens library has some pretty nice documentation
04:18:06 <comex> elliott: if you want to be sure, use __attribute__((packed))
04:18:59 <kmc> almost certainly not needed, but if nothing else, it documents that you have made this assumption
04:19:01 <zzo38> Can the TOGA computer be implemented using a 74163 IC?
04:20:18 <comex> kmc: it could be needed if the struct starts with a 64-bit integer
04:20:40 <comex> only because nlmsghdr happens to be aligned though
04:20:44 <kmc> i'm just suspecting that nlmsghdr... yeah
04:20:55 <kmc> for more or less these reasons
04:21:00 <comex> actually, I guess nlmsghdr itself would be declared packed in that case
04:21:09 <comex> well, it wouldn't make a difference
04:22:22 <kmc> suspecting that its size is a multiple of the largest alignment gcc will force on struct fields
04:22:25 <kmc> but not sure
04:22:30 <kmc> anyway yeah use 'packed'
04:24:39 <shachaf> Oh, are you reading the lens documentation?
04:25:08 <shachaf> People say it needs a lot more documentation.
04:25:41 <shachaf> One day I'll know all the lens operators.
04:25:41 <kmc> well it has more than "here are the functions and their extremely polymorphic types"
04:26:08 <shachaf> Most places it has "here are the functions and five different specializations of their extremely polymorphic types"
04:26:20 <elliott> <comex> elliott: if you want to be sure, use __attribute__((packed))
04:26:22 <elliott> comex: that's so unportable :(
04:26:25 <shachaf> I thought that was a Python-only thing.
04:26:28 <kmc> there's doctest for haskell now?
04:26:44 <kmc> elliott: eh, it works on GCC and every compiler that imitates GCC
04:26:48 <elliott> comex: I guess the struct is guaranteed to work iff nlmsghdr works though
04:26:53 <shachaf> So those example are actual tests.
04:26:58 <kmc> which is all the compilers you might use on Linux really
04:27:02 <elliott> so I suppose I will skip doing the whole copying-memory nonsense to do it "properly"
04:27:55 <comex> elliott: pragma pack is more portable, i believe, in case you somehow need to compile it with MSVC
04:28:03 <zzo38> I would like to see an implementation of Checkout in some hardware description language. (Possibly also make a compiler to make a binary, which this implemented hardware then runs.)
04:30:12 <monqy> did someone say a good idea
04:30:31 <shachaf> monqy: do you collect them
04:30:52 <monqy> i feed them well and also let them drink
04:31:49 <kmc> more like MICRO$HAFT VENEREAL COCKS
04:33:00 <elliott> high tech padding from linux kernel headers industry
04:33:30 <elliott> /* Bytecode is sequence of 4 byte commands followed by variable arguments.
04:33:30 <elliott> * All the commands identified by "code" are conditional jumps forward:
04:33:30 <elliott> * to offset cc+"yes" or to offset cc+"no". "yes" is supposed to be
04:33:30 <elliott> * length of the command and its arguments.
04:33:43 <kmc> what is this
04:33:49 <kmc> bytecode for what
04:33:58 <kmc> the code of bytes
04:34:05 <kmc> why does this involve bytecode
04:34:43 <shachaf> Should I read _Purely Functional Data Structures_?
04:35:01 <kmc> it feels good
04:37:47 <monqy> why does that involve bytecode...
04:38:10 <elliott> monqy: depends what `that' is
04:38:19 <monqy> whatever involves bytecode
04:38:29 <shachaf> why does bytecode involve bytecode
04:38:32 <kmc> in the grim linux of the far future there is only bytecode
04:39:14 <monqy> the children of the generation of the future: they're just bytecode??? humankind is dead.
04:39:48 <elliott> monqy: im already bytecode
04:40:27 <monqy> hows it like being subhuman
04:42:22 <monqy> hows it like being wrong
04:42:56 <elliott> monqy: how's it like being racist against bytecode :/
04:43:25 <shachaf> racist against every kind of code
04:56:19 <elliott> kmc: okay apparently I actually have to send bytecode over netlink to find out the pid that owns a socket
04:58:08 <kmc> stupid future
05:01:38 <elliott> this request code is going to be like
05:01:49 <elliott> and that doesn't even count parsing the response
05:02:35 <monqy> what are you even doign
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05:04:49 <elliott> monqy: you dont want to know..........
05:09:50 * pikhq feels far too awesome
05:10:35 <monqy> that's a dangerous feeling
05:11:31 <coppro> what did you accomplish?
05:14:11 <pikhq> Perhaps a tiny bit weird; hard to be happy at people IRL 'bout it. Thus, here.
05:14:35 <coppro> people get upset that you're gloating if you do it IRL
06:13:16 <shachaf> It is time to take out the trash, and we need to stop supporting pay basis distros such as communist Redhat. They are charging us for the stuff thats spose to be free.
06:13:59 <pikhq> We need only juche distros.
06:14:52 <coppro> shachaf: please tell me you are not serious
06:15:36 <shachaf> I'm completely serious, coppro
06:15:51 <shachaf> I know that most of you would rather run Windows than Redhat. This is my opinion again, but personally Redhat runs like crap even on newer systems. Stock package management and static binaries may save time, but in the long run they lower your peak perormance and also make the system unstable, and as useless as a used condom. Even recompiling the kernel on Redhat causes problmes. Their modern init scripts interfere with some newer kernel ...
06:15:57 <shachaf> ... operations. It takes as much time to get Redhat working right as Gentoo.
06:16:06 <kmc> now it makes sense
06:16:10 <Bike> is this funroll-loops
06:16:56 <kmc> goddamn freeloading redhat, always taking our stuff and never giving back
06:17:43 <kmc> i'd just like to say, there are so many uses for a used condom
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06:28:09 <zzo38> There is the chess variant "Chaotic Chess", which is not really quite as chaotic as they say it is. Each piece, after move, change into another kind of piece of your choice, subject to restriction cannot change into the pair Pawn-King, Knight-Queen, Bishop-Rook. Win if your opponent has no king.
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06:56:20 * Sgeo noticies the elixir language
07:05:39 <Sgeo> http://elixir-lang.org
07:06:01 <Sgeo> Language that runs on the Erlang VM. Syntax looks vaguely Rubyish, but it has macros
07:06:19 <elliott> Sgeo: is it better than clojure? is it better than tcl
07:06:30 <elliott> is it better than common lisp
07:07:04 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ activity activity-full admin all-dicts arr ask b52s babel bf bid botsnack brain bug check choice-add choose clear-messages compose devils dice dict dict-help djinn djinn-add
07:07:04 <lambdabot> djinn-clr djinn-del djinn-env djinn-names djinn-ver do docs dummy easton echo elements elite eval fact fact-cons fact-delete fact-set fact-snoc fact-update faq farber flush foldoc forget fortune
07:07:04 <lambdabot> fptools free freshname ft gazetteer get-shapr ghc girl19 google googleit gsite gwiki hackage help hitchcock hoogle hoogle+ id ignore index instances instances-importing irc-connect jargon join karma
07:07:04 <lambdabot> karma+ karma- karma-all keal kind learn leave let list listall listchans listmodules listservers localtime localtime-reply lojban map messages messages? more msg nazi-off nazi-on nixon oeis offline
07:07:04 <lambdabot> oldwiki palomer part paste ping pl pl-resume pointful pointless pointy poll-add poll-close poll-list poll-remove poll-result poll-show pretty print-notices protontorpedo purge-notices quit quote rc
07:07:06 <lambdabot> read reconnect remember repoint run shootout show slap smack source spell spell-all src tell thank you thanks thx ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete topic-cons topic-init topic-null topic-snoc
07:07:08 <lambdabot> topic-tail topic-tell type undefine undo unlambda unmtl unpf unpl unpointless uptime url v vera version vote web1913 what where where+ wiki wn world02 yarr yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw yow
07:07:28 <Bike> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
07:07:30 <Sgeo> I've always been curious about Erlang's approach to things, but the syntax does bother me, although I think the final straw was when the online book I was reading said that hot-swapping was a thing to try to avoid and is difficult
07:07:48 <Bike> well, that was enlightening.
07:07:49 <Sgeo> I think my only use-case for hot-swapping is to make development faster.
07:08:24 <elliott> can we not do the lambdabot: @ thing
07:08:48 <shachaf> these bots are made for spammin'
07:08:57 <monqy> isn't erlang syntax just prolog syntax taken too far
07:09:15 <elliott> can it be vaguely more productive spam than lambdabot: @
07:09:18 <elliott> because that is really annoying
07:09:21 <Sgeo> I'm going to venture a guess that Elixir is better syntax-wise than Ruby
07:09:32 <monqy> whoa, wild guess man
07:09:35 <shachaf> Sgeo: are you a venture capitalist
07:12:57 <monqy> Sgeo: what makes you say that. are you going to learn elixir now. what makes you like elixir.
07:13:15 <shachaf> is elixir the new clojure.
07:14:50 <monqy> exciting world of new languages and doing(?) things(??) with(????) them(???????)
07:15:48 <elliott> doing things with, n. telling #esoteric all about
07:15:53 <shachaf> that's a lot of question marks monqy
07:15:58 <shachaf> don't use up your lifetime supplies
07:16:26 <monqy> watching from a distance, community involvement(???)
07:16:54 <monqy> is there an elixir reddit you can teach about how elixir works
07:16:55 <fizzie> "lambdabot: @" "Maybe you meant: @" Yeah, maybe.
07:17:16 <fizzie> Elixir restores both your HP and MP to full.
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07:41:04 <Sgeo> I think Elixir's "records" are mutable.
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07:41:27 <elliott> mutable state in 2012?? how unfashionable
07:41:36 <fizzie> A Megalixir will restore *every party member's HP/MP*, if you can believe it.
07:41:43 <monqy> and calling them records?????
07:42:01 <Sgeo> Don't care what they're called, just about their mutability.
07:42:11 <Sgeo> Isn't Erlang supposed to use immutable stuff?
07:43:11 <coppro> Sgeo: you are confusing values with variable
07:43:19 <coppro> Erlang does not have mutable variables
07:43:27 <Sgeo> "Keep in mind that records (as any other data structure) in Elixir are immutable. "
07:43:43 <coppro> Haskell does not have mutable variables either
07:44:54 <Sgeo> Oh, I understand. They're immutable.
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07:51:51 <Sgeo> Elixir has an interesting approach to macro hygiene, but I need to think about it for a while.
07:57:15 <monqy> what is it, what's there to think about, what's interesting about it
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08:26:54 <Sgeo> In Lispy terms, a symbol in a quasiquote is distinct from a symbol received as an argument
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09:09:16 <atriq> elliott, in Brogue, is it possible to give allies instructions?
09:10:17 <elliott> atriq: no but you can swap with them which is helpful... the closest thing is that when they're ready to learn a new ability you can herd them to the tile where a monster recently died and they'll learn from that one
09:10:32 <elliott> (but they find such a square without your assistance anyway, it just lets you pick which one sometimes)
09:10:43 <elliott> allies take care of themselves fairly well generally
09:11:10 <atriq> So I can't say "Oi, friendly monkey! Go round there so that monkey that nicked my enhancement scroll can't escape!"
09:11:35 <elliott> do you want a tip for dealing with monkeys
09:11:43 <atriq> That would be nice
09:11:46 <elliott> throw darts at them until they die
09:12:00 <atriq> What if they steal your darts
09:12:05 <elliott> oh sometimes they steal your darts but you can just drop your darts before they steal and then pick up the darts afterwards. i don't do that
09:12:10 <elliott> if monkeys steal my darts what i do is i quit and start again
09:12:52 <atriq> Can you give me a tip about bloats
09:12:55 <elliott> here is a free bonus tip about acid amounds: unequip your armour and weapon to fight them and then put it back on afterwards
09:13:09 <elliott> the normal kind you can just pop and then walk out of the cloud and rest until it goes away
09:13:14 <atriq> And any other ones I haven't seen
09:13:17 <elliott> other kinds you want to use darts
09:13:35 <elliott> darts are useful with regular bloats too actually, since if one is close to other monsters you can kill it and the gas will hurt all the other dudes
09:13:54 <Jafet> With all the names changed around
09:14:09 <monqy> it's nethack but we just call it brogue because we're speaking in code
09:14:14 <elliott> atriq: ps by acid amounds i mean acid mounds
09:14:28 <shachaf> monqy: "want a fun project"
09:14:43 <shachaf> who can i give this fun project to !
09:16:07 <atriq> elliott, can you give me a hint about pink jellies
09:16:35 <Sgeo> What project, and why do I have a feeling it will be lens related?
09:17:00 <shachaf> Actually there are two projects.
09:17:11 <shachaf> https://github.com/ekmett/lens/issues/80
09:17:28 <atriq> shachaf, I would but I'm fixing semigroupoids
09:17:36 <shachaf> atriq: What is there to fix?
09:17:38 <monqy> atriq: you can fight them in corridors or backed up into a dead end or something. the idea is that you can only be adjacent to 2 or 1 or so. another tech is to position the jelly so its spawns are more likely to end up behind it instead of behind you
09:17:42 <elliott> <atriq> elliott, can you give me a hint about pink jellies
09:17:47 <elliott> atriq: the easiest way is: get to a door
09:17:55 <shachaf> "semigroupoids: the simplest thing in the world?"
09:17:59 <atriq> shachaf, Documentation for Data.Functor.Extend
09:18:01 <elliott> hit the jelly until it spawns behind you, then kill that spawn and continue hitting the original one
09:18:07 <elliott> atriq: you can do it without a corner like this but it's really the easiest
09:18:17 <elliott> since jellies can spawn in three spaces (to the sides of the corner)
09:18:21 <elliott> but they can't hit you diagonally around a corner
09:18:29 <elliott> you can only get hit by two at once because of how corners work
09:18:46 * Sgeo has no idea what Bazaar is
09:18:52 <elliott> atriq: basically though just fight them not in the open
09:19:01 <atriq> That is a good tip
09:19:20 <monqy> atriq: more tip: if you light them on fire and then they split their splits will be on fire too
09:19:32 <elliott> i have a goblin conjurer tip too if you haven't figured those out yet!!
09:19:44 <monqy> atriq: more tip: if you discord them and split their splits will be discorded and kill each other
09:20:02 <elliott> the most common thing: finding discord while you have jelly problems
09:20:25 <monqy> elliott: is this the tip where you back up into a cirroidor so it summons stuff behind itself thus trapping itself
09:20:27 <elliott> atriq: if you chase them before they summon then they won't summon they'll just run away from you. so if you chase them into a corridor (not open space) like this .@.g.
09:20:35 <elliott> atriq: and press z (to skip turns) until it summons
09:20:39 <elliott> then some of the blades will go in front of it
09:20:41 <elliott> and some will go behind it
09:20:43 <elliott> so you can kill the one in front of it
09:20:49 <elliott> and it won't be able to run because it'll have its blades behidn it
09:21:02 <monqy> i take that as a "yes"
09:21:04 <elliott> monqy: no it's an entirely different tip
09:22:27 <shachaf> like "shut up if you know what's good for you"
09:22:55 <monqy> Happiness is not the absence of conflict, but the ability to cope with it.
09:24:35 <shachaf> Death is not *anything*... Death is... Not. It's the absence of presence, nothing more. the endless time of never coming back.
09:25:55 <elliott> monqy: have you noticed fewer runic stuff than before in 1.7 btw
09:26:05 <monqy> It's Never Too Late For Good Things To Happen!
09:26:16 <monqy> uhh i only played 1.7 ....twice?
09:27:08 <elliott> monqy: should play it some more!!! "it's harder than 1.6.4"
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09:30:33 <Jafet> I thought Death was like http://www.vamp.org/Gothic/Images/images/death2.gif
09:31:21 <shachaf> Jafet: Do you suppose Death could be a boat?
09:32:07 <shachaf> Guildenstern: No, no, no... death is not. Death isn't. Take my meaning? Death is the ultimate negative. Not-being. You can't not be on a boat.
09:32:10 <shachaf> Rosencrantz: I've frequently not been on boats.
09:32:13 <shachaf> Guildenstern: No, no... what you've been is not on boats.
09:33:43 <shachaf> Rosencrantz: Did you ever think of yourself as actually dead, lying in a box with a lid on it?
09:33:48 <shachaf> Rosencrantz: Nor do I, really. It's silly to be depressed by it. I mean, one thinks of it like being alive in a box. One keeps forgetting to take into account the fact that one is dead, which should make all the difference, shouldn't it? I mean, you'd never know you were in a box, would you? It would be just like you were asleep in a box. Not that I'd like to sleep in a box, mind you. Not without any air. You'd wake up dead, for a start, and ...
09:33:54 <shachaf> ... then where would you be? In a box. That's the bit I don't like, frankly. That's why I don't think of it. Because you'd be helpless, wouldn't you? Stuffed in a box like that. I mean, you'd be in there forever, even taking into account the fact that you're dead. It isn't a pleasant thought. Especially if you're dead, really. Ask yourself, if I asked you straight off, "I'm going to stuff you in this box. Now, would you rather be alive or ...
09:34:00 <shachaf> ... dead?" Naturally, you'd prefer to be alive. Life in a box is better than no life at all, I expect. You'd have a chance, at least. You could lie there thinking, "Well. At least I'm not dead. In a minute somebody is going to bang on the lid, and tell me to come out." [bangs on lid] "Hey, you! What's your name? Come out of there!"
09:34:08 <shachaf> Guildenstern: I think I'm going to kill you.
09:34:10 <shachaf> elliott: "is that what you feel like sometimes"
09:34:14 <monqy> Listen to yourself more often
09:34:35 <monqy> Your way of doing what other people do their way is what makes you special.
09:35:45 <monqy> You are contemplating some action which will bring credit upon you
09:37:02 <monqy> TOO MANY PEOPLE VOLUNTEER TO CARRY THE STOOL WHEN ITS TIME TO MOVE THE PIANO
09:37:45 <monqy> Wow! A secret message from you teeth!
09:38:01 <shachaf> monqy$ for i in `seq 1 5`; do fortune; done
09:38:56 <HackEgo> 126) <ais523> reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays <ais523> after all, there's porn all over the internet, why would you /pay/ for it
09:39:30 <HackEgo> 155) <alise> Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of? <pikhq> alise: TLAAW
09:39:32 <HackEgo> 779) <Edwin Brady> Just seen this comment on reddit: "Parallel programming has been a solved problem for decades." I might have to stop reading the internet.
09:39:34 <HackEgo> 767) <Sgeo> "Sgeo: how refreshing to see you talk about something other than whatever the heck homestuck is"
09:39:35 <HackEgo> 174) <oklopol> there's a rather clear separation into the 99% of esolangs that are fun syntax ideas, and the 3% that someone actually put some thought into.
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10:00:51 <elliott> 767 is unimpeachable & i like 799
10:01:04 <atriq> Nah, it's cold outside
10:01:12 <Sgeo> 799 wasn't even shown
10:01:26 <HackEgo> 799) <zzo38> A lot of things happened; not only me, but also you
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10:02:20 <monqy> i like 767 and 799
10:02:28 <monqy> 155 isn't so great
10:02:52 <atriq> monqy, stop sucking up to elliott
10:03:07 <monqy> lets find a quote we disagree on
10:03:11 <HackEgo> 729) <Phantom_Hoover> I had a dream last night where I got hit by a van but the van had a brain uploader in it and I was uploaded and I angsted because I was stuck spending eternity with singularitarians?
10:03:21 <monqy> this is a good quote
10:04:45 <HackEgo> 591) <monqy> i agree with elliott
10:04:55 <HackEgo> 481) <Phantom_Hoover> OK, Taneb's been taken by a mood and he needs raw emeralds. <Phantom_Hoover> It's been fun knowing him.
10:05:05 <HackEgo> *poof* <monqy> i agree with elliott
10:05:15 <elliott> monqy: what if there's an even worse one
10:05:28 <HackEgo> 442) <Taneb> Look, I often walk my dog through a field with cows in it. And I punched myself in the face once.
10:05:29 <HackEgo> 270) <oklopol> okay see in my head it went, you send from your other number smth like "i'd certainly like to see you in those pink panties again" and she's like "WHAT?!? Sgeo took a pic?!?!?! that FUCKING PIG"
10:05:31 <HackEgo> 351) <ZOMGMODULES> scripting language. whole program analysis. together at last
10:06:32 <HackEgo> 82) <dtsund> For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside.
10:06:55 <atriq> What would be the Endless Forest of video games
10:07:03 <atriq> Endless Forest, probably
10:07:05 <elliott> what would be the pacman of video games
10:07:06 <HackEgo> 844) <zzo38> Do you think " `addquote [with no context] < zzo38> Do you think psychology is worse, or not?" is worse, or not?
10:07:10 <HackEgo> 650) <shachaf> VMS Mosaic? <shachaf> I hope that's not Mosaic ported to VMS. <shachaf> Hmm. It's Mosaic ported to VMS.
10:07:10 <HackEgo> 625) <Phantom_Hoover> You know what annoys me about Deep Space 9. <Phantom_Hoover> It wasn't in deep space. <Phantom_Hoover> It was orbiting Bajor.
10:07:20 <atriq> I meant, what would be the Endless Forest of programming languages
10:07:40 <monqy> what would be the pacman of programming languages
10:07:49 <elliott> monqy: do you have `a vote'
10:08:23 <monqy> 625 or 583 probably
10:08:33 <Sgeo> What would be the Artwar of programming languages?
10:09:21 <HackEgo> 444) <NihilistDandy> The Russian's emblem was the hammer and sickle, not the fist and other fist
10:09:34 <Sgeo> I have said lol :( many a time myself
10:09:51 <HackEgo> 351) <ZOMGMODULES> scripting language. whole program analysis. together at last
10:09:53 <Sgeo> May not have said it in here
10:09:54 <HackEgo> 409) <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: nope, I removed . from the current directory
10:09:59 <HackEgo> 473) <oerjan> i try to be a hermit but it's hard with all these housemates.
10:10:01 <HackEgo> 49) <GregorR> ??? <GregorR> Are the cocks actually just implanted dildos? <GregorR> Or are there monster dildos and cocks? <GregorR> Or are both the dildos and cocks monster?
10:10:04 <monqy> one time a guy said lol D: and it was pretty great :-)
10:10:42 <HackEgo> 607) <fizzie dictionary> An 'ad hobbitem' fallacy is when you try to undermine someone's credibility by referring to how hairy his/her feets are.
10:11:13 <HackEgo> 518) <fizzie> That's the stupidest thing I've heard all morning. (Though I did wake up five minutes ago, so I haven't had a chance to hear very much.) <fizzie> The "Why are you still asleep? I told the cat to wake you up." comment does come pretty close, though.
10:11:14 <HackEgo> 121) <Mathnerd314> Gregor-P: I don't think lambda calculus is powerful enough
10:11:20 <HackEgo> 788) <Taneb> l is it real <Taneb> I am [...] <Taneb> because of how on earth would I do that [...] <Taneb> I dont even no idea what I'm saying
10:11:21 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
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10:12:25 <monqy> its pretty ok thumbs up
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10:13:43 <elliott> i dont either but its always been #1
10:13:45 <elliott> so it can never be deleted
10:14:08 <HackEgo> 672) <Sgeo> I guess only gay people fuck?
10:14:20 <HackEgo> *poof* <Taneb> l is it real <Taneb> I am [...] <Taneb> because of how on earth would I do that [...] <Taneb> I dont even no idea what I'm saying
10:14:35 <HackEgo> 809) <Ngevd> And I may soon lack both a head and a wall
10:14:37 <HackEgo> 533) <Sgeo> Maybe I should try to learn Scala instead of Ruby <elliott> I will boil your veins. <Sgeo> Which is less bad? <elliott> Probably Scala, but I don't want you learning languages.
10:14:52 <monqy> 533 is "real good"
10:14:58 <HackEgo> 499) <zzo38> What is miff-muffered moof? <itidus20> that's a tough question
10:14:59 <HackEgo> 33) <ehird> is there a problem with it being carbonized :D <augur> yes: carbonized coffee bean is known more commonly as "charcoal"
10:15:07 <elliott> monqy: what does "real good" mean
10:15:24 <elliott> i like 809 a bit but i don't know why
10:15:29 <Sgeo> miff-muffered moof sounds like a setup to something, but itidus screws it up.
10:15:38 <elliott> can't delete 672 of course
10:17:41 <monqy> `addquote <HackEgo> 499) <zzo38> What is miff-muffered moof? <itidus20> that's a tough question [...] <Sgeo> miff-muffered moof sounds like a setup to something, but itidus screws it up.
10:17:45 <HackEgo> 873) <HackEgo> 499) <zzo38> What is miff-muffered moof? <itidus20> that's a tough question [...] <Sgeo> miff-muffered moof sounds like a setup to something, but itidus screws it up.
10:18:02 <elliott> "adding a quote: just as good as deleting a quote?"
10:18:14 <atriq> "monqy, evidently"
10:18:25 <HackEgo> 682) <itidus22> if the halting problem was solved, as a placebo.. would it benefit people?
10:18:55 <HackEgo> 386) <elliott_> I'm not even going to try and understand what you're proposing. <oerjan> i understand it perfectly. it's completely nuts.
10:18:56 <HackEgo> 171) <ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python
10:19:11 <HackEgo> 541) <Phantom_Hoover> I'm sacrificing the animals, then I'm going to bed.
10:19:11 <HackEgo> 871) <kmc> typed racket: anyone using a model m keyboard
10:19:25 <elliott> all of those are good.................................
10:19:38 <HackEgo> 625) <Phantom_Hoover> You know what annoys me about Deep Space 9. <Phantom_Hoover> It wasn't in deep space. <Phantom_Hoover> It was orbiting Bajor.
10:19:40 <monqy> maybe this one will be bad
10:19:55 <HackEgo> 64) <fax> im the worst person in the world
10:20:07 <monqy> i forget who fax is so i dont get 64
10:20:19 <monqy> did i ever know who fax is ?
10:20:21 <HackEgo> 671) <Phantom_Hoover> The reason the cute animals collection includes pictures of intestines is that cute animals have to have intestines.
10:20:21 <HackEgo> 470) <monqy> beautiful summer / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck
10:20:22 <Sgeo> MissPiggy or I think?
10:20:24 <HackEgo> 825) <itidus21> . o O ( (watches on from a distance) I just can't think that abstractly... or I don't want to. I'm more, there are 2 trains heading in opposite directions: what year were they built? How many windows do they have? Is anyone train surfing on them? Is Ringo Starr narrating this problem? ) [...] <itidus21> Do they serve french toast in the dining carriage?
10:20:29 <elliott> monqy: MissPiggy quantumEd soupdragon j-invariant crystal-cola
10:20:43 <monqy> i knew about fax being crystal-cola and i knew about j-invariant too but
10:20:54 <monqy> i forget about all of these people other than them being the worst person in the world
10:20:58 <elliott> well i don't think it's possible to know fax and then forget about fax
10:21:10 <monqy> i just knew about fax
10:21:17 <monqy> i saw a few crystal-cola quotes
10:21:25 <elliott> 64 is traditional. good? maybe. but traditional
10:22:04 <monqy> having to dig hard to find bad quotes is a sign of a good qdb !
10:22:19 <HackEgo> 55) <apollo> So... copyright doesn't really apply to God.
10:22:50 <HackEgo> 761) <fizzie> fungot: Feeling scrambled after all that? <fungot> fizzie: but it's much like new zealand, in my stone-age country, we still like you even if you're only using the new fnord
10:22:52 <atriq> 470 isn't a haiku :(
10:22:56 <HackEgo> 757) <Taneb> I swear my dreams are becoming increasingly rave + computer science oriented
10:23:06 <HackEgo> 564) <monqy> one time I tried cpp programming <monqy> it was hellish <monqy> maybe I should try again
10:23:07 <HackEgo> 613) <Phantom__Hoover> Also you steal Berwick from us and then say you don't want it? <Ngevd> You stole it from us first!
10:23:07 <atriq> Heh, I remember that
10:23:35 <atriq> I never did like 613
10:23:58 <monqy> i don;t know enough about your history to get 613
10:24:46 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwick-upon-Tweed#Struggles_for_control_of_Berwick
10:24:57 <elliott> the main important part is that nobody actually cares about berwick
10:25:01 <elliott> probably not even people who live in berwick??
10:25:15 <atriq> The UK Betty Crocker factory is in Berwick
10:25:35 <HackEgo> 604) <oklopol> so you are doing for compilers what imperative programming did for functional programming
10:26:07 <HackEgo> 201) <l4rk> your premise to falsify "false" is false
10:26:11 <HackEgo> 315) <oklopol> i understand that people had to use twitter and facebook before irc was invented, but now they just feel like ancient history
10:26:12 <HackEgo> 580) <Gregor> Hulu's movie selection is like MST3K without the MST3K characters.
10:26:15 <HackEgo> 459) <itidus20> It's ok guys. I am doing what I can to keep my psyche and ego surviving. All the while the threat of ww3 looms, the mortality of family and friends(loved ones?) and sooner or llater my own mortality.
10:26:54 <atriq> Is itidus still alive
10:27:22 <elliott> monqy: how about 201 from that previous set?
10:27:35 <HackEgo> 153) <cpressey> < ais523> then running repeatedly until you get the right sequence of random numbers < ais523> and just completely ignoring the input <-- some people live their entire lives this way, i reckon
10:28:11 <HackEgo> *poof* <l4rk> your premise to falsify "false" is false
10:28:15 <HackEgo> 104) <fungot> alise: why internet is like wtf
10:28:22 <HackEgo> 97) * Warrigal refuses to say goodbye to Quas NaArt, as he is coming closer, not going farther.
10:28:24 <fizzie> fungot: Is internet like wtf?
10:28:25 <fungot> fizzie: i suppose directions are given in the fnord, myself.
10:28:30 <HackEgo> 458) <monqy> itidus20: i saw a dancing cgi skeleton named malaria. i danced and played with him.
10:28:31 <HackEgo> 467) <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, the origin of suffering is desire for e-book readers.
10:29:46 <atriq> Advantages of e-book readers: take up less space
10:29:53 <atriq> Disadvantages: bookcases look cool
10:30:19 <monqy> i dont know quas naart or warrigal so i dont get 97. the best part of 467 is imagining the context. it's addressed to sgeo. what could have happened there
10:30:20 <fizzie> atriq: You can just have a bookcase full of e-book readers.
10:31:20 <elliott> monqy: the "97 story" is quas naart was travelling somewhere but it was technically geographically closer to warrigal (you actually do know warrigal) so he didn't say bye when he left on irc
10:32:21 <HackEgo> *poof* * Warrigal refuses to say goodbye to Quas NaArt, as he is coming closer, not going farther.
10:32:36 <elliott> ok i invalidate this run of quotes
10:32:55 <HackEgo> 495) <itidus20> well, you have bested me <zzo38> itidus20: Yes.
10:33:05 <monqy> "with any luck they're all good"
10:34:18 <HackEgo> 89) <Warrigal> Making a small shrine to Lawlabee in my basement is something I should get around to at some point.
10:34:19 <HackEgo> 755) <Taneb> I swear my dreams are becoming increasingly rave + computer science oriented
10:34:21 <HackEgo> 828) < oklopol> oh god another crazy haskell understander < oklopol> i have to leave
10:34:23 <HackEgo> 720) <fizzie> [...] "paikankin päällä" sounds just fine
10:34:24 <HackEgo> 627) <Pavitra> That was me being *nice*. I could have made the request by word of mouth to my My Little Pony toys and it would count.
10:34:26 <HackEgo> 525) <monqy> game where you flip a coin but it's really really big
10:34:26 <HackEgo> 557) <Patashu> dangit I need someone who knows the answers to my problems instantly and is always around for me! <Patashu> I need.....an adult ;_;
10:35:12 <elliott> monqy: let me know when it's over.....
10:36:16 <monqy> i also dont get 627 or 89 or
10:37:12 <elliott> 627 is referencing some agora thing i think??? ais523????
10:37:18 <elliott> i quite like 557 personally
10:37:36 <HackEgo> *poof* <fizzie> [...] "paikankin päällä" sounds just fine
10:37:38 <elliott> monqy: are you going to do it or me.......
10:38:23 <HackEgo> 47) <oklopol> GregorR: are you talking about ehird's virginity or your soda beer?
10:38:42 <monqy> i dont get 47 can you explain it
10:39:06 <atriq> `quote fall in love
10:39:08 <monqy> is this an "old esoteric" thing
10:39:13 <HackEgo> 446) <Taneb> So... God has jizzed on everything? <oklopol> have you even READ the bible?
10:39:18 <HackEgo> 263) <elliott> 320 quotes and still not a funny one yet!
10:39:20 <HackEgo> 432) <NihilistDandy> MY CONTINUITY <NihilistDandy> MY FANFICTION <NihilistDandy> RUINED
10:39:20 <HackEgo> 600) <Ngevd> Dammit, Gregor, this is not the time to fall in love \ 621) <HackEgo> 678) <Ngevd> Dammit, Gregor, this is not the time to fall in love <HackEgo> 187) <alise> Gregor: You should never have got her pregnant. <Gregor> what whaaaaaaaaaaaat
10:39:24 <HackEgo> 732) <ais523> oh right: Frooxius, you wouldn't happen to live in Hexham, would you? <Frooxius> No, sorry. <ais523> phew <Ngevd> How about Finland? <Frooxius> Why would I live there? <fizzie> That's a *very* good question. <fizzie> Why would anyone?
10:39:59 <atriq> Ignore 600 and 621 they were a separate quotegetting
10:40:41 <elliott> monqy: this batch isn't so good on the whole imho
10:40:49 <elliott> idk which should be deleted though
10:41:12 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
10:41:13 <monqy> 732 is the only only one i really like
10:41:53 <shachaf> elliott: Did you see the thing in #haskell about lazy binary numbers?
10:43:13 <HackEgo> 160) <Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
10:43:18 <HackEgo> 606) [in the context of Open University] <Ngevd> "Unlike other operating systems, Linux operating systems use Linux"
10:43:34 <shachaf> elliott: The question was whether you could have any representation of natural numbers other than Z | S N that let you do things like length foo >= n
10:43:38 <elliott> imo 606 would be improved without the [] context
10:43:52 <HackEgo> 852) <zzo38> Because, if it is all wrong, then I should fix it please
10:43:53 <elliott> shachaf: sure, just define it as binary
10:44:01 <HackEgo> 477) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it is a hate so pure and... pumpkin seeds?
10:44:01 <HackEgo> 792) * elliott is back not for killing purposes but here to kill people.
10:44:03 <HackEgo> 509) <Taneb> Maybe if you try diplomacy. <Taneb> Pointy steel diplomacy
10:44:04 <monqy> `addquote <Ngevd> "Unlike other operating systems, Linux operating systems use Linux"
10:44:09 <HackEgo> 871) <Ngevd> "Unlike other operating systems, Linux operating systems use Linux"
10:44:12 <HackEgo> *poof* [in the context of Open University] <Ngevd> "Unlike other operating systems, Linux operating systems use Linux"
10:44:18 <elliott> thats not how you edit quotes
10:44:24 <monqy> i know how to edit quotes
10:44:29 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
10:44:43 <monqy> does it really matter???
10:44:49 <elliott> the rules must be enforced monqy
10:44:52 <elliott> atriq: btw what are we holding for
10:45:04 <atriq> Homestuck thoughts
10:45:05 <elliott> `run sed -i 's/.in the context of Open University. //' quotes
10:45:37 <HackEgo> 131) <ais523> cpressey: I have actually done a waterfall-model project that almost worked <cpressey> That's where you have a flexible kayak that bobs and weaves between the rocks as it plummets off the cliff
10:46:10 <HackEgo> 772) <monqy> Sgeo: I used to have strict requirements for when I said hi but then everyone started saying hi and it all got weird
10:46:15 <HackEgo> 205) * oerjan considered buying lutefisk, but apparently it cannot be prepared in microwave </bachelor frog>
10:46:17 <HackEgo> 827) < oklopol> oh god another crazy haskell understander < oklopol> i have to leave
10:46:19 <HackEgo> 233) <locks> who's walter bright and why is he so bright <nddrylliog> locks: he's to D what I'm to ooc <nddrylliog> locks: guilty
10:46:55 <monqy> 205...............................................
10:47:24 <Sgeo> Isn't nddrylliog that ooc person?
10:47:34 <Sgeo> Very out of character...
10:47:36 <monqy> no that's not-nddrylliog
10:48:11 <elliott> how is that out of character
10:48:24 <elliott> approximately half of our nddrylliog experiences have consisted of him snarking about ooc
10:48:34 <monqy> either an misinterpreation
10:48:40 <monqy> or the worsT JOKE OF THE ENTURY
10:49:10 <elliott> Sgeo: i think you should leave for a while
10:49:15 <elliott> and think about what you have done
10:49:31 <elliott> maybe god will forgive you
10:50:42 <HackEgo> 10) <reddit user "othermatt"> So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs?
10:51:09 <HackEgo> 74) <Sgeo|web> Where's the link to the log? <lament> THERE'S NO LOG. YOUR REQUEST IS SUSPICIOUS AND HAS BEEN LOGGED.
10:51:16 <HackEgo> 670) <Sgeo> I guess only gay people fuck?
10:51:20 <HackEgo> 415) <Sgeo> Dear eHow: Please don't assume that my toilet works like that <Sgeo> Or, at least, my toilet looks different
10:51:21 <HackEgo> 608) <monqy> never ever do bacon floats or i will hunt you down and kill you augh my leg
10:52:10 <Sgeo> 415 isn't that great
10:52:26 <elliott> you can't ever possibly understand how perfect 415 is
10:52:32 <monqy> 415 is also perfect
10:52:39 <elliott> monqy: did you mean to put another number there
10:52:40 <Sgeo> It seems like a perfectly reasonable comment.
10:52:55 <monqy> elliott: also in the sense of "it's very good and also perfect"
10:53:29 <monqy> i dont like it but taneb does
10:53:47 <monqy> what's the context to 10
10:54:24 <elliott> not sure you can delete quote 10...
10:54:27 <Sgeo> Clearly the best way to find out is to look through every comment /u/othermatt made
10:54:44 <monqy> how about a compromise and we delete 608
10:54:53 <Sgeo> I'm almost certain it was in the context of it being a bad joke
10:55:26 <elliott> monqy: i quite like 608 because it is tortured
10:55:36 <elliott> tortured by bacon floats. tortured by leg
10:55:46 <elliott> tortured, in the end, by life itself
10:56:00 <Sgeo> Other things I am almost certain of: The Sun is large relative to the Earth.
10:56:19 * Sgeo doesn't like the word certain bare.
10:56:44 <atriq> http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/8vg4u/bill_nye_explains_the_iphone_3gss_oleophobic/c0akggi?context=3
10:57:21 <atriq> It was better as a mystery
10:57:35 <elliott> Oops! Google Chrome could not find www.reddit.com
10:58:57 <HackEgo> 2) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork"
10:59:09 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
10:59:16 <HackEgo> 10) <reddit user "othermatt"> So what you're saying is that I shouldn't lick my iPhone but instead I should rub it on my eyes first and then lick my eyeballs? \ 20) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to get head twice at once \ 30) <zzo38> I am not on the moon. \ 40) <fizzie> Seconds. 30 of them. Did I forget the word? \ 50) <apollo> Maternal instincts? <apollo> Don't you just leave
11:00:49 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
11:00:56 <HackEgo> 332) <elliott> AV is better than first-past-the-post, like every voting system apart from the Random Elephant Stomping method
11:01:29 <HackEgo> 540) <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, Bashir, just sit there drinking, rather than diagnosing the carpenter mauled in that tragic bonobo accident.
11:01:34 <HackEgo> 739) <fizzie> Two gigabytes is not really much to download. <Gregor> THAT'S LIKE THREE EPISODES OF MY LITTLE PONY
11:01:38 <HackEgo> 692) <fungot> fizzie: is a 98% reduction in the waterpark intensity, right, so i'd imagine!
11:01:39 <HackEgo> 482) <Phantom_Hoover> You realise the micromanagement it took to make quintopia encrust my silver throne with emeralds rather than a jug?
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11:03:03 <monqy> is the joke that Gregor likes my little pony
11:03:19 <elliott> monqy: this is the #esoteric qdb. why are you assuming there's a *joke*
11:03:27 <Sgeo> Do cartoons compress better than live action TV shows?
11:03:46 <HackEgo> *poof* <fizzie> Two gigabytes is not really much to download. <Gregor> THAT'S LIKE THREE EPISODES OF MY LITTLE PONY
11:03:52 <elliott> Sgeo: most animation is simple so.... yes
11:04:28 <HackEgo> 267) <zzo38> Why do you want to have sex in everything? I don't want.
11:05:19 <HackEgo> 55) <apollo> So... copyright doesn't really apply to God.
11:05:19 <HackEgo> 620) <Ngevd> "Facekicker" Hird is a member of the Hird family <Phantom_Hoover> Ngevd, world-renowned detective.
11:05:28 <HackEgo> 103) <fungot> alise: why internet is like wtf
11:05:34 <elliott> monqy: heeeelp they're repeating
11:06:21 <monqy> but how many of them are worth keeping
11:06:27 <monqy> dare we raise the bar??????
11:06:52 <HackEgo> 476) <fungot> elliott: an old colonel lost, but a new brother gained. together they will ascend, each time you must be adventurin'.
11:06:57 <monqy> i guess it depends on what kind of a bar we're talking about
11:07:00 <HackEgo> 591) <fungot> fizzie: it doesn't *use* raw cgi. to my deep fnord i'm only fnord of the job description. it's badly fnord also.
11:07:02 <monqy> if it's a limbo we should be lowering it
11:07:29 <elliott> monqy: two fungot off the bat. how can you apply bars to fungot
11:07:30 <fungot> elliott: ( then again, maybe not
11:07:32 <HackEgo> 401) <oerjan> as i was filled with zzo38 mystery at the moment i saw <zzo38> quintopia: I am at Canada.
11:07:32 <HackEgo> 700) <Phantom_Hoover> Phantom_Hoover OF YOURE. <Phantom_Hoover> Oops.
11:07:35 <HackEgo> 217) <elliott> Getting bad programmers to like something is a failure.
11:07:45 <fungot> shachaf: i have the previous edition of eopl. it was written
11:07:47 <fungot> shachaf: ( x:_;! x:(class)=f! x+1,! x+2 this must be a way around it? d: to change to
11:07:48 <fungot> shachaf: do the cpsify fnord macros make more sense to at least the feeling is similar. the main problem is percolating in the background
11:07:49 <fungot> shachaf: r2q2 pasted " mccarthy email" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord anyone help me?
11:08:42 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
11:08:45 <elliott> monqy: i think that was me trying to convince Sgeo that trying to design his language so that it's popular rather than good as bad
11:10:51 <HackEgo> *poof* <Phantom_Hoover> Phantom_Hoover OF YOURE. <Phantom_Hoover> Oops.
11:11:30 <HackEgo> 68) <coppro> SF.net porn :/ <ehird> Oh yeah, baby, gimme that... bloated download page?
11:12:11 <HackEgo> 726) <Phantom_Hoover> oh jesus my mother is trying to ship bear grylls with miranda hart aerio;jghaeirugha
11:12:11 <HackEgo> 772) <Taneb> I saw a Finnair plane today <ion> In a smoking rubble? <Taneb> Close. <Taneb> Heathrow Airport
11:12:20 <HackEgo> 70) <AnMaster> I'm 100% of what sort of magic was involved in it
11:12:20 <HackEgo> 801) <olsner> they call finnish human-readable?
11:12:46 <elliott> monqy gets the decision. nb 70 is traditional because anmaster tried to delete it like 100 times after it got added
11:13:04 <atriq> Is AnMaster Vorpal?
11:13:12 <atriq> I'm pretty sure AnMaster is not markov
11:13:23 <fungot> atriq: the way you can
11:14:14 <monqy> elliott: hmmmmmmmmmmm i dont like any of them but they're the sort of things you have to learn to tolerate in life
11:14:20 <atriq> On another note, Tumblr post genealogy is hard
11:14:38 <elliott> monqy: i think 772 is quite good. maybe it's better if you know heathrow airport
11:14:47 <monqy> i don;t know heathrow airport
11:14:59 <elliott> monqy: it's a really big really busy airport
11:15:04 <monqy> so to me it just falls into that sort of "joke template"
11:15:16 <elliott> i dont like 68 but thats because ehird is in it
11:15:20 <elliott> 801 is olsner so it gets a free pass
11:15:24 <atriq> Oh no Wikipedia is doing a fundraiser again
11:15:46 <monqy> "agreement enough for me"
11:15:46 <HackEgo> 136) <alise> So basically we're having an awful lot of very dangerous intercourse. <alise> Involving open wounds. <coppro> I'm going to take a shower
11:15:58 <monqy> what;s up with 136
11:16:21 <monqy> atriq: it's not me
11:16:27 <HackEgo> *poof* <alise> So basically we're having an awful lot of very dangerous intercourse. <alise> Involving open wounds. <coppro> I'm going to take a shower
11:16:30 <monqy> elliott: did you really never tell taneb all of your alts!!!
11:16:33 <elliott> it's actually chickenzilla
11:16:33 <atriq> No wait, I'm atriq
11:16:38 <monqy> "i thought everyone knew them"
11:16:47 <elliott> atriq: i admit it im secretly estoppel
11:16:47 <HackEgo> 6) <Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to science. <GKennethR> He's alive :P <GreenReaper> Even so.
11:16:51 <HackEgo> *poof* <coppro> SF.net porn :/ <ehird> Oh yeah, baby, gimme that... bloated download page?
11:16:54 <HackEgo> 846) <zzo38> Yes you are correct you must be mad or you wouldn't have come here. No escape either, sorry.
11:16:54 <HackEgo> 673) <fizzie> Do you want me to live dangerously and just stick it in the bot without testing it? <elliott> fizzie: Yes. <elliott> There is pretty much no way it won't be amazing.
11:16:54 <HackEgo> 526) <NihilistDandy> Also Perl, but I don't really consider that a programming language so much as a really heavy implementatino of awk
11:17:16 <monqy> squarelos is an anonymous collective
11:17:37 <shachaf> ais523: Can you stop this botspam?
11:17:44 <shachaf> I'm trying to have a productive discussion.
11:18:11 <HackEgo> 87) <songhead95> think of all the starving kids in china who don't have rotting sea life to eat
11:18:17 <shachaf> elliott: Do you know anything about Idris?
11:18:30 <HackEgo> 181) <Phantom_Hoover> [...] I'm just widening the shaft to be 4x2 or so.
11:18:32 <HackEgo> 266) <oklopol> okay see in my head it went, you send from your other number smth like "i'd certainly like to see you in those pink panties again" and she's like "WHAT?!? Sgeo took a pic?!?!?! that FUCKING PIG"
11:18:33 <HackEgo> 507) <Taneb> Maybe if you try diplomacy. <Taneb> Pointy steel diplomacy
11:18:34 <HackEgo> 23) <ehird> so i can only conclude that it is flawed, or the world is utterly bonkers
11:19:05 <elliott> i think the joke is "shaft"
11:19:10 <elliott> but it's actually "minecraft"
11:19:18 <HackEgo> *poof* <Phantom_Hoover> [...] I'm just widening the shaft to be 4x2 or so.
11:19:33 <elliott> truly this is the greatest quote crusade the world has ever known
11:19:38 <HackEgo> 206) <Sgeo> Is there a name for something where I'm more attracted to someone if I know they've had a rough past? <variable> Sgeo, "Little Shop of Horrors"
11:19:39 <lambdabot> thewhitenoise says: I was just trying to figure out how to accurately convey a trollface in text
11:19:40 <lambdabot> islands says: spoiling the sanctity of christmashood innocence
11:19:41 <lambdabot> wikipedia says: The principle of parametricity dictates that functions with similar types have similar properties.
11:19:41 <lambdabot> pfpl says: practical foundations of programming languages http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rwh/plbook/book.pdf
11:19:42 <lambdabot> ksf says: did you ever notice that OO-fix is actually the same order as default lojban?
11:20:08 <shachaf> i say islands or wikipedia
11:20:09 <HackEgo> 95) <AnMaster> fungot!*@* added to ignore list. <fungot> AnMaster: i'd find that a bit annoying to wait for an ack.
11:20:10 <HackEgo> 174) <Sgeo> HOT SEXY SEX BITS
11:20:19 <HackEgo> 304) <Sgeo_> I think she either likes me, is neutral towards me, or dislikes me
11:20:22 <HackEgo> 535) <Phantom_Hoover> The fact that the elves will be happy with this will hopefully be counteracted by the fact that I plan to drop them into the magma cistern.
11:20:35 <elliott> lots of sgeo this time round
11:21:01 <monqy> the sgeo quotes are all good. i dont know anything about little shop of horrors (uncultured??) but the sgeo makes up for it.
11:21:40 <lambdabot> Data.Numbers.Primes says: The number 6 is a good value to pass to this function.
11:21:41 <lambdabot> sioraiocht says: was dons PhD in writing random haskell libraries?
11:21:42 <lambdabot> chrisdone says: booting up IE6 is like calling Igor from the basement, and listening to him hobbling up the stairs breathing heavily, somehow affecting a lisp even with heavy breathing
11:21:43 <lambdabot> cowardlydragon says: [from a reddit comment thread] Don't get me started on monad. What is that, a man with a single testicle?
11:23:42 <HackEgo> 441) <elliott> God, I sure do hate Apple and their header files that only include the functions they're specified to.
11:24:10 <HackEgo> 335) <augur> oerjan you're swedish, right?
11:24:16 <HackEgo> 502) <Phantom_Hoover> A possessed soapmaker: the most ridiculous thing? <Phantom_Hoover> OH YES YOU JUST HAD TO CLAIM THE WORKSHOP I SET ASIDE FOR STRAND EXTRACTION YOU BASTARD <Phantom_Hoover> I SWEAR IF ANY OF THAT ADAMANTINE GOES MISSING YOU'RE GETTING SOME HIGH-QUALITY ROOMS
11:24:23 <HackEgo> 656) <QuickDirtyOS> Linux is like the most quirky of all Forths, it has its own OS
11:24:24 <HackEgo> 861) <zzo38> Confucius say too much. -- Recent Chinese Proverb
11:24:59 <elliott> monqy: what do you think. i have one in mind but i'm curious if it's the one you have in mind
11:25:08 <lambdabot> Uh, I think so Brain, but this time, you wear the tutu.
11:25:31 <lambdabot> Well, I think so, Brain, but pantyhose are so uncomfortable in the summertime.
11:25:34 <lambdabot> <copumpkin> says: I love: Warning: Due to a known bug, the default Linux document viewer evince prints N*N copies of a PDF file when N copies requested. As a workaround, use Adobe Reader acroread
11:25:34 <lambdabot> for printing multiple copies of PDF documents, or use the fact that every natural number is a sum of at most four squares.
11:25:34 <lambdabot> metaperl says: I never thought anyone could be on IRC as much as you and look that good
11:25:35 <lambdabot> swix says: seriously though, this thing is too concise, it's scary, given what it does
11:25:35 <lambdabot> danderson says: the path to [Haskell] enlightenment is long, but the previous pilgrims have opened nice little pubs along the way, so it's a pleasant trip
11:25:36 <lambdabot> earthy says: the haskell standard prelude is ... a treasure trove. ;) but it does require breaking your mind and reassembling the pieces to unlock the trove
11:25:52 <elliott> shachaf: can you stop, thanks
11:26:21 <fizzie> Once you pop, you can't stop.
11:26:35 <elliott> shachaf: i rate the chances you'll actually say something relevant about esolangs if i stop 0, and one of these botspams is a channel tradition
11:26:56 <HackEgo> 741) <kmc> has there been any work towards designing programming languages specifically for stoned people
11:27:46 <HackEgo> 841) * oerjan makes a brainfuck derivative for quoting xkcds
11:27:49 <HackEgo> 256) <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I have just one tvtropes page open in elinks, but my tvtropes.txt "queue" has 38 tvtropes.org URLs waiting for processing.
11:27:51 <HackEgo> 778) <Taneb> voice changer to remove ads from transit as well as intended
11:27:51 <HackEgo> 448) <ais523> 99% OF USES OF STRDUP ARE ILLEGAL!
11:27:53 <HackEgo> *poof* <QuickDirtyOS> Linux is like the most quirky of all Forths, it has its own OS
11:28:27 <elliott> i wonder what 448 is about
11:30:14 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
11:31:07 <HackEgo> *poof* <Taneb> the killers dancer in my c***
11:31:37 <fizzie> The numbering strikes again.
11:33:23 <elliott> `quote voice changer to remove
11:33:26 <HackEgo> 777) <Taneb> voice changer to remove ads from transit as well as intended
11:33:33 <HackEgo> *poof* <Taneb> voice changer to remove ads from transit as well as intended
11:35:24 <lambdabot> VerityStob says: Lisp is still #1 for key algorithmic techniques such as recursion and condescension.
11:35:24 <lambdabot> Lajla says: Also, I just don't like how - works in standard lisp.
11:35:25 <lambdabot> hakko says: most programmers have a lot of religious issues about their work, yes.
11:35:25 <lambdabot> dLog says: Why would you punctuate a "sentence" that consists solely of lol.
11:35:25 <lambdabot> IceDane says: [on escaping an imperative mindset]: <kmc> i recommend heavy drinking <IceDane> I've tried that. I just have fun and wake up and feel like shit the day after. but still think in loops.
11:36:01 <shachaf> @forget Lajla Also, I just don't like how - works in standard lisp.
11:36:04 <elliott> so i actually stopped for unrelated reasons but then you didn't stop
11:36:33 <shachaf> I just switched back into this channel and saw that you were still going.
11:37:20 <HackEgo> 530) <Phantom_Hoover> FFS, building a perpetual motion machine should not be this hard.
11:37:48 <HackEgo> 651) <Vorpal> elliott: well how will you represent "The dog jumped over the lazy dog" then?
11:37:52 <HackEgo> 724) <Vorpal> <ais523> northern ireland is quite a way to drag someone from scotland <-- not really. I just checked in google earth <ais523> Vorpal: but dragging people across water's a bit tricky
11:38:00 <HackEgo> 564) [from 2009] <fizzie> That's confusing. I have been indoctrinated to believe W|A, but on the other hand it's hard to unbelieve a book with such a ridiculously impressive name as "Handbook of physical testing of paper, Volume 2".
11:38:01 <HackEgo> 499) <elliott> I MIGHT BECOME GHOST
11:38:59 <elliott> fizzie: did you ever read the handbook of physical testing of paper, volume 2
11:41:19 <Jafet> http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m58qz9jVVa1qjb4aeo1_500.jpg
11:42:21 -!- mean has joined.
11:44:44 <HackEgo> mean: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
11:45:02 -!- ais523 has quit.
11:45:21 <mean> what can you make of this
11:45:28 <mean> http://goo.gl/4A8ql
11:45:28 <fizzie> elliott: I only saw the Google book scan preview thing of it, I think.
11:45:39 <fizzie> You can buy it for just $259.95 in Amazon, I see.
11:45:43 <atriq> mean, unobfuscated link?
11:46:00 <fizzie> Or $213.85 for the Kindle Edition.
11:46:24 <fizzie> (But why would you get a paperless edition of the Handbook of Physical Testing of Paper, Volume 2?)
11:47:15 <fizzie> "There are no customer reviews yet."
11:47:35 <Deewiant> If you didn't you'd end up testing the paper it came on, finding that it's hopelessly sub-par, and destroying it in frustration
11:48:17 <shachaf> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/7364
11:48:20 <fizzie> Volume 1: Contains basic principles and the latest techniques in paper and paperboard testing. Fosters an understanding of theory and mechanical testing parameters to evaluate results and make improvements. Emphasizes new procedures utilizing advanced microscopy equipment.
11:48:25 <fizzie> Volume 2: Divided into five parts, it highlights assays for paper interactions with light, moisture, electricity, and heat. Topics expanded upon include laboratory testing procedures; microscopy analysis and paper surface properties; liquid and gas penetration; electrical and thermal interactions; and methods of surface characterization.
11:48:40 <fizzie> Some of those testing methods sound like they wouldn't leave much of the book.
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11:54:02 <Jafet> I wonder how much voltage is required to get an arc through paper.
11:55:04 <fizzie> It probably depends: on the paper.
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12:11:00 <atriq> Okay, the Conservative party really wants me to vote for them
12:11:37 <atriq> I've got a birthday card from Guy Opperman
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12:14:25 <atriq> The tories are after me
12:16:40 <atriq> I think I'll read the Tory Manifesto then ring this guy about everything I disagree with
12:18:01 <atriq> Ugh, the website is in ASPX
12:18:17 <atriq> I just want to download a PDF of the manifesto
12:23:08 <shachaf> Did Google change their map color scheme recently?
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12:48:36 <fizzie> It looks different. More terrainy.
12:48:57 <fizzie> At least at some zoom levels.
12:49:56 <fizzie> "We detected that your computer does not meet the system performance requirements for MapsGL." :(
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14:03:37 <ion> This looks interesting. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen
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14:07:44 <atriq> Well, I just got Turkey's 2012 entry to the Eurovision Song Contest stuck in someone's head
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14:53:49 <ion> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9653497/British-have-invaded-nine-out-of-ten-countries-so-look-out-Luxembourg.html
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14:59:06 <ion> The first F1 clip i liked ever. http://youtu.be/7Wr2C7Niak8
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15:02:27 <atriq> I've just affected a serious Haskell package
15:03:19 <atriq> https://github.com/ekmett/semigroupoids/network
15:04:24 <atriq> I'm 18 and I've had a positive influence on the community
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15:05:46 <ais523_> huh, my computer's getting better at spontaneously reconnecting
15:06:14 <ais523_> or at least, the wireless routers here are being buggy in a different way from before
15:06:24 <ais523_> (/me is continuing the traditional distinction between ais523 and ais253_)
15:06:49 <ais523_> (which is, that ais523 is my laptop, and ais523_ a public terminal)
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15:30:18 <atriq> My friends are getting me to listen to Bastille
15:30:38 <atriq> The video to Flaws seems to be "Don't abandon your friends just because they cosplay Kurloz Makara from Homestuck"
15:30:49 <atriq> "They're still probably okay people"
15:36:32 <coppro> both that they cosplay Kurloz specifically and that they got a costume together that quickly
15:37:12 <atriq> I know at least two Kurloz cosplayers
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15:38:54 <atriq> http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/599070_10151304813401241_206750056_n.jpg
15:40:00 <coppro> yup, that's a kurloz cosplayer
15:40:12 <atriq> The one on the left
15:48:38 <atriq> Something anime I'd presume
15:48:47 <atriq> That was taken at MCM
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16:03:42 <tswett> Sgeo: hey, would you like to give me all of your Sgeo trading cards?
16:04:25 <coppro> no, give them to elliott
16:04:46 <ais523_> Sgeo: I'm willing to trade an ais523 card for a Sgeo card (this is a better deal for you than the other ones that have been suggested)
16:05:06 <ais523_> (and I'm suggesting it because it's also a better deal for me than the other ones that have been suggested)
16:05:17 <Sgeo> I haven't even heard of cards until 11:03
16:05:25 <Sgeo> Do I have to do this now, or can it wait?
16:05:32 <Sgeo> I kind of overslept and missed class
16:05:34 <atriq> I'm willing to trade THE COMPLETE SET of Taneb cards for an Sgeo card
16:05:47 <atriq> Including the very obscure FlatFish card
16:05:49 <ais523_> atriq: isn't that a complete null set?
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16:10:21 <Sgeo> Just read the proposal in question
16:10:54 <Sgeo> Oh, ok, it is a contest not a rule change, didn't read the whole thread
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16:30:51 <ais523> oh, can I rant: if you're given a mark scheme to mark by that contains the same marking point twice
16:31:04 <ais523> the correct thing to do is to find the person who wrote it and tell them there's a mistake
16:31:35 <ais523> the incorrect thing to do is to combine the max marks for that marking point into a higher max mark, mark to that max mark, and then split them back between the marking points
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16:41:33 <ion> multiple critical vulnerabilities in sophos products http://lists.grok.org.uk/pipermail/full-disclosure/2012-November/088813.html
16:43:19 <kmc> "Sophos products should only ever be considered for low-value non-critical systems and never deployed on networks or environments where a complete compromise by adversaries would be inconvenient."
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16:50:13 <kmc> they disable the OS's ASLR implementation so they can use their own shitty ASLR implementation
16:50:23 <kmc> which works by loading their code at a fixed offset...
16:52:57 <kmc> their antivirus scanner also introduces an XSS vulnerability to every website on the Internet
16:58:50 <kmc> oh and it runs as root of course
17:00:19 <Jafet> "// Incorrect attempt at checking for integer overflow, as the overflow occurs before the test."
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17:55:25 <ais523> wow, that problem was bizarre to debug
17:55:30 <ais523> and the solution is a bit hacky
17:55:51 <ais523> problem: sandboxed program is failing due to illegal call to munmap (this was quite hard to determine in the first place)
17:55:58 <ais523> solution: set MALLOC_MMAP_MAX_ to 0
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18:01:16 <ais523> nooodl_: it's prctl sandboxing
18:01:30 <ais523> basically it's not allowed to make any syscalls but read, write, sigreturn, _exit (with the underscore)
18:01:56 <ais523> and although munmap seems reasonably harmless as syscalls go, that one isn't allowed either, on the principle that the less allowed the better
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18:04:31 <ais523> also, silly things discovered reading mallopt's man page: glibc malloc internally uses quarter-of-a-pointer units for measurement in some cases
18:06:42 <FreeFull> Assuming 32-bit, that's a byte
18:08:10 <kmc> why was it hard to determine why it was failing?
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18:20:43 <quintopia> do you like projects? i have a small project for you
18:21:02 <Phantom_Hoover> i just watched a video where someone describes fpses as turing-complete simulations
18:21:22 <quintopia> that kind of statement requires proof!
18:21:33 <quintopia> zzo38: a random NPC generator for D&D
18:21:53 <Phantom_Hoover> an eodermdrome interpreter that runs a random npc generator
18:23:22 <oklopol> turing complete simulations?
18:24:05 <kmc> FreeFull: you have quite the knack for stating the obvious
18:24:41 <oklopol> there was a paper on arxiv some weeks or days or something ago where they spent proved that a problem's decidable. there are something like 100 different inputs.
18:25:10 <oklopol> turing complete simulations of bullets? mario has that?
18:25:18 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, well, actually I was intending to make some random NPC generator for D&D too.
18:25:45 <zzo38> You could use FurryScript for some of these functions too.
18:26:10 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe the bullet bills are actually the head and the world is a turing machine
18:26:22 <ais523> <FreeFull> Assuming 32-bit, that's a byte ← I think the whole point is that it adapts for bitwidth
18:27:08 <ais523> <kmc> why was it hard to determine why it was failing? ← because any attempt to invoke a syscall causes a SIGKILL immediately before the syscall would happen, meaning it can't be observed by debuggers; the fact is logged but the log is only accessible by root, and I didn't have root on the machine
18:27:25 <ais523> (the eventual method of determining the problem was to copy everything onto a machine where I did have root, and run it there)
18:27:45 <kmc> oh that sucks
18:27:49 <kmc> so you can't see the failure in strace
18:28:22 <kmc> in that situation i might resort to putting a breakpoint on every glibc syscall wrapper (assuming those are being used)
18:30:08 <zzo38> ais523: Do you know how to implement Checkout with hardware description language?
18:32:08 <zzo38> quintopia: It could be, have list of creature types with level adjustment, racial HD, ability score adjustment, and what further feature need randomly defined, when input range of level and further constraint and it will make it up at random. I could add feature in FurryScript for external constraint and this kind of things, might be useful for other purposes too.
18:33:39 <quintopia> zzo38: there's this one that does character sheet with a little bit of fluff: http://chaoticshiny.com/full4e.php
18:33:51 <quintopia> but what i want is a complete personality specification
18:34:08 <zzo38> I don't know all of personality specification either, but you can try something.
18:34:42 <quintopia> i would want something that works for any edition, because it's...hmmm
18:34:43 <ais523> <kmc> so you can't see the failure in strace ← yeah, that's the first thing I tried, but it doesn't work
18:35:16 <zzo38> quintopia: For personality description, should work for anything, even if not D&D. You could try working something with FurryScript, perhaps, ask for help if you want.
18:35:24 <zzo38> I don't know a lot about personality description, sorry.
18:36:42 <zzo38> Still, constraint would be useful, for example if you want to constrain the Strength score to greater than ten, or if you want no goblins, or if you want to generate a pair with opposite alignments or no shared skills or whatever.
18:37:09 <zzo38> Well, you could have that too, then.
18:37:10 <quintopia> a constraint system i'd like to see it
18:37:24 <quintopia> "more loyal" or "more paranoid" or "more greedy"
18:37:40 <quintopia> and then it tells how they react to certain thins
18:37:45 <zzo38> I was just giving examples; of course if you want only goblins you could do that too and probably simplify it greatly since you need not indicate ability score adjustment for all other kind of creatures too.
18:38:42 <zzo38> quintopia: I am not so good at those things though. Constraint I could do, but not like "more loyal" and so on; I don't know a lot about the personality specification, as I have said.
18:39:51 <zzo38> (Currently, FurryScript only supports constraint for no duplicates built-in, although others can be implemented using combination of other built-in commands; the BAD and HOR commands are meant for helping with this too.)
18:39:57 <quintopia> something like this would be perfect if it were fantasy oriented: http://selfpublishingteam.com/chargen/ya/ya_show.php?key=3i4qiugb3q&name=
18:40:29 <quintopia> is there a fully specified document for furryscript
18:40:50 <zzo38> quintopia: Only the document on Esolang wiki, and the source codes.
18:41:06 <zzo38> If you have specific questions though, and I find that something is missing in the document, we can add it.
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18:43:49 <zzo38> That generator you linked to seems simple enough to do something like that with FurryScript.
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18:45:57 <zzo38> ais523: Did you read my latest comment here? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Checkout
18:49:16 <zzo38> So if you know better about personality specification then you could try.
18:49:58 <ais523> zzo38: I really don't have time to be writing extensive hardware programs nowadays
18:50:03 <ais523> unless I'm paid to do so
18:51:42 <zzo38> Even if you don't do, if someone does, or you or someone write a few things, or to help with such things at least
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19:00:48 <zzo38> quintopia: Another thing you could try is astrology. (The input doesn't matter, but you might enter their birth date/time/location if you know it; Astrolog does not have a function to select these things at random, but it does allow you to seek forward/backward at specified intervals.)
19:02:52 <zzo38> Of what? Astrolog? I believe so; if not, the source can be compiled into Linux. (If you mean FurryScript, you only need PHP)
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19:04:27 <quintopia> i found a unix x11 shell archive, which seems like an awful lot of effort to use
19:05:27 <zzo38> You think a shell archive is a lot of effort to use?
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19:06:56 <zzo38> Just make a directory and then execute the shell archive, and then compile it.
19:07:04 <zzo38> Hopefully that should work.
19:10:12 <Sgeo> How is a running Erlang system, with processes that store state and receive messages asking them to mutate, different from a typical OO system with amutable objects?
19:10:23 <Sgeo> *mutable objects
19:10:44 <zzo38> quintopia: Well, does it work? Have you tried that? Have you tried FurryScript too? Have you tried anything else?
19:10:50 <kmc> iirc the earliest conceptions of OOP were based heavily on message passing
19:13:20 <kmc> i blame C++ for moving away from that
19:13:44 <Bike> smalltalk was, I think the things before it weren't so much
19:14:19 <kmc> in C++ and Java and such, you have have public data fields, which aren't like message passing
19:14:26 <kmc> but if you avoid those (with good reason) then it is still pretty similar
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19:17:32 <fungot> atriq: he is the creator of this bot. it needs to be totally disconnected if all connected components of x are points. a closed set of evidence to draw from the srfis, but it
19:17:42 <kmc> why sad atriq?
19:17:48 <fungot> FreeFull: you need broadband to get a
19:18:08 <atriq> kmc, because I've annoyed someone to the point where they've completely abandoned me
19:18:14 <atriq> And I'm very sorry and don't know how to fix
19:18:46 <atriq> Man, I would fix so many things if I had a time machine
19:20:18 <shachaf> TWIST: atriq = #haskell, someone = kmc
19:20:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:21:08 <kmc> a person who is an IRC channel?!?
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19:22:32 <atriq> I am literally the incarnation of #haskell
19:22:48 <atriq> This is why I'm not that much good at Haskell, but it's pretty much the only language I use
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19:29:30 <atriq> ...and why I am really weird but also oddly popular?
19:29:51 <atriq> This explains a lot
19:29:58 <atriq> Phantom__Hoover, help I'm an IRC channel
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19:30:23 <shachaf> Isn't Phantom__Hoover #esoteric?
19:30:42 <atriq> We should be friends
19:34:37 <olsner> shachaf: are you sure kmc is someone?
19:45:45 <Sgeo> WTF there exists in the US a third-party that supports the Electoral College
19:45:54 <ion> http://dvice.com/archives/2012/10/ethiopian-kids.php
19:47:19 <atriq> Well, apologizing is generally a good idea
19:47:24 <atriq> As is correct spelling
19:48:35 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact
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20:20:51 <zzo38> quintopia: I would like to know what you would like see if anything I suggested works for you; if not, tell me what is missing? I don't know enough about personality specification to do entirely by myself so I need your help too, please.
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20:42:02 <quintopia> zzo38: i read the furryscript spec but its not readily obvious how one should use it
20:44:02 <zzo38> quintopia: http://zzo38computer.org/furry/scripts/ Look in this directory for some examples.
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20:46:32 <zzo38> "tv_plot.txt" is a simple example. "furrygenerator_7thsanc.txt" is a more complicated example.
20:48:15 <quintopia> lifepath.txt seems rather like a character generator. i think it could be adapted.
20:48:32 <quintopia> i still don't quite understand what every part of the file is doing but i could study it.
20:48:46 <zzo38> Yes, you can make something based on that one. If there is some part you do not understand, you can ask about it specifically.
20:50:02 <quintopia> time. i need time to figure it out.
20:52:21 <zzo38> OK. But you can still ask if you have mroe questions/comments/suggestions/complaints, on the IRC or on the wiki.
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22:30:07 <zzo38> I added a dice command in FurryScript.
22:31:13 <ion> Vg rira unf n gevooyr. :-D “Dodds Serta Trek” http://youtu.be/cip0TY91sjI
22:33:20 <zzo38> They now accept things such as <4d6dl> DIC meaning four six-sided dice, and drop the lowest one, like used to generate random ability scores.
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22:42:23 <kmc> i wonder how to take an arbitrary discrete probability distribution and come up with a dice expression for it
22:45:55 <kmc> http://phpjs.org/ just what i always wanted
22:46:15 <Bike> if you can do that with solomonoff's that would be a hell of a thing
22:47:17 <Bike> huh, php has bc in it. why?
22:48:12 <Bike> right. I supose that explains that "get gz header and strip html out of it" function too.
22:50:16 <zzo38> PHP has a lot of things in it
22:50:45 <zzo38> kmc: I don't know how to take an arbitrary discrete probability distribution and come up with a dice expression for it. However, FurryScript can work without dice expressions, too.
22:50:56 <zzo38> What example of some probability distribution do you mean?
22:51:08 <olsner> about probability distributions, there was an interesting discussion in #haskell-blah the other day about coin flips and huffman trees
22:52:25 <olsner> but I dunno how that relates to dice expressions since I don't know what those are
22:53:00 <zzo38> Something like 4d6 if you want four six-sided dice added together.
22:54:25 <olsner> I suspect dice might be like arithmetic/range coding
22:57:27 <zzo38> Well, I suppose you can Huffman code the probabilities of different dice totals, although I am unsure why such a things would be useful.
22:59:31 <olsner> I think the point was to get specific probability distributions .. and huffman goes nicely with coin flips because it's binary
23:00:16 <zzo38> quintopia: If you get working FurryScript program for what you are making, I would request (but not require) that you send me the file I could include it in the archive of available scripts of FurryScript.
23:03:25 <zzo38> olsner: Do you mean you want to toss a coin to generate the data and then uncompress it by Huffman?
23:03:36 <olsner> (but huffman only works for probabilities that are all multiples of 2^-n)
23:04:02 <olsner> nah, it's not that I *want* to, just that you can
23:04:33 <zzo38> I suppose you could use a generalize kind of Huffman which uses other base, than base 2 only. Possibly even change base at different points.
23:04:58 <olsner> yes, I think that gives you something similar to range encoding
23:05:27 <zzo38> If you allow it to be unlimited, you could use coin toss for 2/3 probability.
23:05:43 <zzo38> One way to do this is the way the DIGGER card works in Pokemon card.
23:06:20 <zzo38> Starting with you, you and opponent take turns toss a coin, until one player gets tails. Whoever gets tail add 1 damage to their own active Pokemon card.
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23:08:14 <zzo38> I have calculated the probability to hit your own card 2/3
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23:10:42 <olsner> oh, *you* start tossing? then that makes sense
23:11:19 <olsner> a bit evil for all the players who wouldn't realize that the card is more likely to hurt yourself than your opponent
23:12:25 <zzo38> Well, in some cases the chance that it will hit opponent is useful, and in some cases it is more useful to make it to hit yourself anyways.
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23:21:24 <zzo38> For example, some cards have a RAGE attack which does damage according to the amount of your own damage, so in case it does one less damage than needed to knock out opponent's card, then if you use DIGGER card it is beneficial regardless of the result of coin toss.
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23:52:08 <shachaf> @tell elliott `o` may not be associative, but normal Haskell (.) doesn't have an identity.
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00:26:57 <zzo38> One command I want to add in FurryScript is something to generate skill ranks for D&D3.5e or Icosahedral RPG, including feature such as cross-class skills, different classes to depend on, maximum settings, and so on, but I am unsure how I should implement it in what I have now.
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00:52:37 <kmc> gotta decide who to vote for
00:52:47 <kmc> democratic party or green rainbow party
00:54:40 <Phantom__Hoover> i guess you idiots actually do that for saint patricks day though
00:55:13 <ion> :-D http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm
00:55:16 <zzo38> Can you vote for just the green party or rainbow party instead of both?
00:55:25 <kmc> nope, it is the same party
00:55:40 <zzo38> That is the problem with political parties.
00:55:53 <shachaf> kmc: which party are you going to crash
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01:40:17 <kmc> shachaf: did you see http://ugcs.net/~arapp/timelines/sandy/
01:41:05 <shachaf> Yes, it was in #cslounge-trains.
01:42:57 <shachaf> You should join! The train bots are gone.
02:09:40 <kmc> can add cutting-edge design wizardry to your web pages for less than the price of a large pizza without deciphering programmers
02:10:30 <shachaf> Should I "follow" horse_ebooks?
02:17:32 <kmc> to the gates of hell
02:18:30 <kmc> i think there is some kind of twitter SEO where you tweet your band's music video at horse ebooks
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03:07:24 <ion> So many “shut up and take my money” projects. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen
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03:31:26 <kmc> cinnabon minibon rolls at burger king!
03:34:44 <coppro> probably not in this country :(
03:34:46 <coppro> otherwise I would go right now
03:39:09 <kmc> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQmK1CnwOUI
03:40:23 <Sgeo> Need to watch RvB season finale
03:45:38 <kmc> the most unrealistic thing about television is that people wear clothes while they sleep
03:46:26 <zzo38> I wear clothes while sleep, but it is pyjamas rather than normal clothing
03:47:07 <zzo38> (Well, sometimes it is other clothing. And sometimes I have none and wear nothing, but this is rarely)
03:47:44 <coppro> Would anyone be interested in a a channel to discuss parliamentary sorts of goings-on?
03:47:47 <coppro> parliamentary procedure, interesting things happening in legislatures around the world, etc.
03:49:39 <ion> Nice ad, now with CP.
03:51:03 <zzo38> Can APL programs be compiled to make computer hardware?
04:28:20 <coppro> pikhq: you should join ##parliament
04:33:46 <shachaf> copumpkin: Big parliament is a type of big government, right?
04:35:05 <shachaf> I read somewhere that the 1% didn't like big government.
04:35:13 <copumpkin> the bigger the government, the more power it has, and I exist to corrupt it
04:35:17 <shachaf> I guess I assumed small rather than huge.
04:37:38 <shachaf> Do two hafnium atoms make one holmium atom?
04:38:43 <zzo38> A hafnium atom seems to be more than one holmium atom already
04:39:00 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/12i0t0/accepting_criticism_on_the_internet/
04:39:15 <Sgeo> (Note: Link is not funny. And the person who posted that image is Ryan)
04:39:33 <Sgeo> Well, it's funny that he actually thinks that that makes him look like anything other than an idiot.
04:42:04 <coppro> Sgeo: are you interested in parliaments at all?
04:43:56 <Sgeo> Elixir doesn't have quote. It has quasiquote which it calls quote
04:44:00 <coppro> Sgeo: join ##parliament
04:45:25 <kmc> i would feel like a sucker voting third party, even though my vote arguably has more impact that way
04:47:38 <shachaf> Would you feel like a sucker voting not-third party?
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06:02:36 <Robdgreat> I was planning on writing Cthulhu in
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06:15:19 <quintopia> kmc: more impact? would voting first or second party give it negative impact, because i'm pretty sure voting third party gives it close to zero impact...
06:15:50 <quintopia> yes, it shows in the post-election tally that that platform has more supporters, which sends a signal that will be promptly forgotten
06:15:57 <quintopia> but it doesn't change the government
06:17:55 <zzo38> Didn't Mickey Mouse once win the United States election, but since they are not eligible they had to select the second place?
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06:21:50 <quintopia> zzo38: i've never heard that, though mickey is a frequently used protest vote
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07:11:30 <fizzie> For some reason the traditional protest vote in Finland is Donald Duck, not Mickey Mouse.
07:11:39 <fizzie> Or at least so I believe.
07:14:52 <fizzie> Here's a paper from one vote-counter tabulating the discarded votes. Donald Duck is a clear winner with 24 votes; all the rest have <= 2. (Well, discounting a crude drawing of a vagina, which is not quite a person.)
07:15:20 <Bike> how many did the crude drawing of a vagina garner?
07:16:06 <fizzie> Batman, The Phantom, Kekkonen and Halonen all got two.
07:16:25 <fizzie> (The numbers are just what this one counter saw, not the totals across the whole election.)
07:16:43 <fizzie> Only one for Mickey Mouse.
07:22:40 <Sgeo> Why am I suddenly missing MSN Explorer?
07:23:03 <Sgeo> ...it still exists. It is still actively developed.
07:26:56 <Sgeo> And is intended to be used with a paid subscription
07:27:01 <Sgeo> That's relatively new, I think
07:27:46 <shachaf> fizzie: Kekkonen and Halonen aren't *quite* in the same category as Donald Duck and Batman, are they?
07:42:56 <olsner> those are actually just the finnish names of donald duck and batman
07:44:14 <shachaf> You can't fool me, olsner!
07:44:30 <shachaf> Take your foolingisms elsewhere.
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08:27:45 <fizzie> shachaf: I don't know, Kekkonen kind of has a supereroish (or at least super-somethingish) status around here, I think.
08:29:42 <shachaf> I thought Halonen was seen as more of a supervillain.
08:29:46 <shachaf> Maybe that's just in Estonia.
08:30:21 <fizzie> Possibly so; I don't think there are any terribly high emotions regarding her in Finland.
08:30:23 <shachaf> ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2adV6PkgFNA )
08:31:03 <fizzie> I'm a bit miffed that they no longer give candy or something after medical exams; I think they used to do that when one was younger. Five tubes of blood, and nothing to show for it. Well, except the blood, of course.
08:31:28 <shachaf> Blood is pretty similar to candy.
08:33:00 <fizzie> Also it's my standad breakfalunch time, but I have to wait here for that one quick-check sample results. (The cafeterias open at 10:30am, and there's no queues; at 11am it's all full already.)
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08:46:17 <olsner> fizzie: if you donate blood you get a sandwich
08:49:29 <Sgeo> Is .m Objective-C?
09:07:25 <fizzie> It's objc, but also MATLAB.
09:08:58 <fizzie> olsner: I think the sample tubes has less volume than what they take when donating, which might explain the lack of rewards.
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15:14:39 <kmc> quintopia: there's no chance my state will cast the decisive electoral vote
15:15:53 <kmc> which is all that matters as far as who actually becomes president
15:17:18 <kmc> so it's a matter of contributing to the popular vote tally for a main-party vs. third-party candidate
15:17:26 <kmc> both of which are about "sending signals" only
15:18:11 <kmc> of course it's also true that one vote is a tiny signal but that's true no matter where you live
15:18:19 <kmc> if i lived in florida or ohio i would not be considering voting third-party
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16:08:19 <elliott> If you need to count the main features of free arcade games online, allow me to share few mentioned. One cannot think the tremendous development of internet and exactly how it's accountable for making things accessible and work simpler and much easier. When internet and entertainment can be manufactured, it's now cheaper. The days of children flocking the amusement centers for playing games have remaining.
16:09:27 <atriq> Possibly a MarioLang like language with networking
16:09:48 <atriq> I need to update Phantom_Hoover's Tumblr
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16:22:15 <atriq> Augh, why do I read this webcomic
16:42:35 <atriq> I'm atriq, Taneb, and Ngevd
16:42:40 <nooodl_> i know elliott, monqy, and zzo38, though. also, i recognize some folks from #haskell
16:42:57 <atriq> I pretty much live here, although I'm sometimes in #haskell
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16:44:42 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> Can you vote for just the green party or rainbow party instead of both? <kmc> nope, it is the same party <zzo38> That is the problem with political parties.
16:44:53 <HackEgo> 864) <zzo38> Can you vote for just the green party or rainbow party instead of both? <kmc> nope, it is the same party <zzo38> That is the problem with political parties.
16:46:41 <elliott> 02:18:30: <kmc> i think there is some kind of twitter SEO where you tweet your band's music video at horse ebooks
16:46:46 <elliott> kmc: capturing the elusive horse_ebooks demographic
16:51:13 <elliott> 00:52:37: <kmc> gotta decide who to vote for
16:51:13 <elliott> 00:52:47: <kmc> democratic party or green rainbow party
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17:01:45 * pikhq approves of rainbows
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17:47:56 <Deewiant> Who here is currently attending a university, excluding myself and fızzie
17:49:04 <elliott> Deewiant: but that's unfair
17:49:05 <Deewiant> Does any such person have free access to the following article: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0196677482900165
17:49:14 <elliott> I am like 80% sure atriq is not in university
17:49:25 <Deewiant> Via the university (or its library, typically)
17:49:39 <elliott> Deewiant: that is the scienciest title
17:50:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, well there's a big banner in the corner saying 'thelibrary' and 'Warwick' so i'm guessing yes
17:50:30 <Deewiant> My university has access to Journal of Algorithms but only 1995 vol 18 – 2009 vol 64... so that 1982 vol 3 is somewhat out
17:51:16 <Deewiant> Or put it on the pirate bay for all I care, whatever
17:51:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: IMO link it in here and mention your real name
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17:54:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I want it too!
17:54:49 <elliott> my email is copyright@fbi.gov.uk.info
17:55:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i see you got that professional-sounding email address you wanted
17:55:26 <Deewiant> Phantom_Hoover: Your complimentary one-time e-mail address is: ph@deewiant.iki.fi
17:55:42 <elliott> Deewiant: You forgot .fbi.gov
17:57:42 <elliott> Arc_Koen: it's the UK branch of the fbi
17:58:05 <elliott> Deewiant: that's only for xtremely xcellent xtraneous email
17:58:06 <Arc_Koen> do you mean the uk are federated to the us?
17:58:29 <Deewiant> elliott: Wouldn't .post make the most sense for e-mail
17:58:35 <elliott> Arc_Koen: what does the fucking bureau of investigation have to do with federation
17:59:11 <elliott> Deewiant: wow, a gtld so stupid not even I knew it existed
18:00:35 <Deewiant> Phantom_Hoover: Seems legit, indeed
18:01:17 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:01:17 <Deewiant> Your complimentary one-time e-mail address is now no longer in service
18:01:36 <elliott> Deewiant: but I just signed it up for spam!!
18:03:00 <Deewiant> A non-one-time e-mail address of mine can be found on my web site at iki.fi/deewiant
18:03:21 <Deewiant> I would prefer it if you did not sign that one up for spam
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18:04:57 <elliott> Deewiant: Can I have an elliott@deewiant.iki.fi? just in case I ever need to email you for anything
18:05:25 <elliott> Deewiant: ncie new glob release
18:05:30 <elliott> did you fix all the things I was going to
18:05:37 <Deewiant> No, I just updated the dependencies
18:06:07 <Deewiant> Because PVP and Cabal and upper bounds and therefore Hackage is terrible etc
18:06:10 <elliott> apparently I have already sent Deewiant spam
18:22:10 <Arc_Koen> please allow me to take one second of your time to exercise my self-centredness
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18:24:50 <Arc_Koen> anyway, in how many hours will you have the results of your election?
18:26:56 <kmc> we already have the results because the Prophet Nate Silver has spoken
18:27:18 <kmc> the result is that 90.9% of Obama and 9.1% of Romney will jointly become president
18:27:36 <kmc> obama with romney hair, most likely
18:27:36 <elliott> that sounds more entertaining than an obama presidency tbh
18:27:37 <copumpkin> will they combine names like Goku and Vegeta?
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18:39:13 <coppro> For anyone interested in parliamentary things, ##parliament
18:39:19 <coppro> (procedure, events in legislatures, etc.)
18:39:32 <coppro> we need another small, barely populated channel
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18:45:50 <Lumpio-> Which parliament would that be
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20:03:39 <kmc> apparently the MySQL datetime column type has only second resolution
20:03:43 <kmc> truly the PHP of databases
20:04:57 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:06:14 <FreeFull> kmc: I think MySQL often gets used in combo with PHP
20:07:01 <kmc> you are a master of stating obvious but irrelevant facts
20:08:50 <olsner> there can be more than one master of stating the obvious
20:09:24 <olsner> I wonder if there's a lolmysql reddit too
20:10:04 <atriq> olsner, not by that name
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20:15:16 <atriq> Argo looks like it's gonna be a decent movie
20:15:57 <nortti> yeah, it was pretty nice
20:16:19 <FreeFull> kmc: You are a master of stating that I am a master of stating the obvious
20:16:24 <atriq> One of my friends wasn't paying attention to the trailer and thought it was going to be an amazing sci-fi movie
20:18:15 <atriq> The Bride of Frankenstein was a hilarious movie
20:24:19 <atriq> Aaargh Youtube is hating me
20:26:06 <atriq> A lot of videos (almost, but not, all) won't load
20:26:09 <atriq> Like, just a black box
20:26:15 <atriq> This is in Chromium
20:26:19 <atriq> It seems to work fine in Firefox
20:26:35 <Vorpal> so not the old classic: "pretend you aren't subscribed" which seems to happen about every other month
20:27:01 <atriq> I'm not signed in on Firefox
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20:35:12 <FireFly> atriq: is flash disabled and have you joined the HTML5 trial or whatever it's called?
20:35:39 <kmc> atriq: yeah, HTML5 trial stopped working for me recently
20:35:44 <FireFly> In that case it'd bail out on videos with ads in them, IIRC
20:35:51 <atriq> I'll try disabling the HTML5 Trial
20:35:56 <kmc> when i opted back out those videos worked in frash prugin
20:36:14 <FireFly> The HTML5 player works for me
20:36:23 <atriq> Yeah, kmc, that worked
20:36:35 <olsner> if it's opt-in, do you opt out when you stop opting in? or do you just unopt in?
20:39:02 <kmc> you ni tpo
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20:51:22 <OTNexus> im just wondering if anyone has any time to check out my new forum software/site, ( just launched 2 days ago :P)
20:53:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Welcome: not found
20:53:12 <soundnfury> damn. How does this bot work again, guys?
20:54:23 <olsner> `? how bot works plox?
20:54:25 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:54:47 <HackEgo> how bot works plox?? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:55:53 <olsner> welcome should be just about case insensitive nowadays
20:56:06 <HackEgo> WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
20:56:29 <HackEgo> WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
20:56:36 <Arc_Koen> so, has Obama been reelected yet?
20:57:11 <olsner> the wiki is not up to date with the url spelling shenanigans though, so the link only works from `welcome
20:57:48 <soundnfury> olsner: yes, I thought it was, which was why I expected `Welcome to work too
20:58:17 <olsner> well, the message has to match the case of the command, so it becomes a wee bit tricky
20:58:46 <fizzie> I'm thinking the 128 case variants should be symlinks to a single welcomation script.
20:59:34 <soundnfury> fizzie: yeah, but then you have to grovel argv[0], and that's just crufty
20:59:55 <olsner> it might be less work than filling in the remaining 4 case variants manually
21:00:20 <fizzie> There are already 124 of them done, then?
21:00:53 <fizzie> There's that ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ though.
21:01:26 <soundnfury> gah, wide characters. I /still/ haven't taught quIRC about those
21:01:38 <olsner> right, so it should take the command text and figure out a similar mapping for all alphabetic characters
21:01:59 <soundnfury> (I mean, obviously it knows about UTF-8, but I'm talking about the ones that take two columns of terminal)
21:03:08 <fizzie> "w31c0m3" is missing too.
21:07:54 <FireFly> "`Welcome" ought to print out the message in titular case
21:07:54 <atriq> FireFly, it's just a Linux system
21:08:04 <HackEgo> bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ dash \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ domainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ kill \ less \ lessecho \ lessfile \ lesskey \ lesspipe \ ln \ login \ ls \ lsmod \ mkdir \ mknod \ mktemp
21:08:22 <HackEgo> cat: /bin/welcome: No such file or directory
21:08:29 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
21:08:29 <FireFly> I knew that, but that still doesn't tell me how to add additional commands
21:08:31 -!- OTNexus has left ("Leaving").
21:08:39 <atriq> I have no idea, beyond that
21:08:58 <FireFly> `echo "echo hello" >bin/firefly-test # I doubt this'll work
21:09:01 <HackEgo> "echo hello" >bin/firefly-test # I doubt this'll work
21:09:14 <Bike> run ed, obviously
21:09:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: halp: not found
21:10:08 <HackEgo> cat: bin/hi: No such file or directory
21:10:12 <olsner> `run echo "echo hi" >bin/hi
21:10:35 <FireFly> A slight improvement; now I know about `run
21:10:36 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hi: not found
21:11:36 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/hi: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/hi: cannot execute: Permission denied
21:11:51 <olsner> meh, I'm missing something
21:12:17 <olsner> fungot: replace our spam with other spam please
21:12:17 <fungot> olsner: it'd stop at 231 or thereabouts?
21:12:44 <fizzie> Except some serialization of requests, arguably.
21:13:04 <olsner> hmm, it doesn't serialize requests?
21:13:25 <olsner> probably a good thing, although somewhat surprising
21:13:26 <fizzie> Not that I know of. They all happen in separate checkouts, too.
21:18:58 <fizzie> fungot: You at least are fully single-tasking, right?
21:18:59 <fungot> fizzie: i think catfive said an important thing i noticed
21:19:26 <fungot> olsner: is smerdyakov unbanned? i just hacked in :p /sarcasm on irc when they leave/ sleep/ work rather than shut down their clients' local variables nor the clients to interfere with the rest
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21:43:26 <kmc> "Relive the biggest moments in the 2012 campaign in just two minutes."
21:43:34 <kmc> CNN's attitude towards this election is like it's a reality TV show that's ending
21:43:38 <kmc> seems pretty fitting
21:44:25 <kmc> "More people on Facebook are talking about Obama today than Romney."
21:44:47 <kmc> "You want close? We've got close!"
21:44:48 <Bike> if only we had some more scientific means to figure out their relative popularity
21:44:54 <kmc> these are all actual cnn.com headlines atm
21:54:32 <Arc_Koen> a brainfuck-derivative where +-.,[] are identical to brainfuck but > and < mean "move the pointer by n cells, where n is the value of the current cell"
21:54:39 <Arc_Koen> would that be turing-complete?
21:54:55 <kmc> my guess is 'yes'
21:55:15 <Phantom__Hoover> my guess is "oh come on you just made that so it's a bitch to prove tc"
21:55:23 <kmc> doesn't sound that hard
21:56:36 <Arc_Koen> well problem is you can't really move to another given cell without destroying the information in the present cell
21:57:00 <Phantom__Hoover> you can if you account for the value of the current cell adequately
21:57:35 <Arc_Koen> besides, you'd at least need the values in cells to be unbounded
21:58:10 <Arc_Koen> ok, assuming the values are bounded - maybe even single bits
21:59:43 <kmc> you can do that, and you can also interleave the "real" tape with cells you just use for jumping
21:59:49 <kmc> though... you have to get to those cells somehow
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22:05:00 <ais523> someone here who isn't in the UK (preferably not in Europe), could you do a traceroute to cs.bham.ac.uk and tell me if what you see is as insane as what I see?
22:06:10 <Bike> it's going through japan?
22:06:23 <ais523> for me, the message goes between 193.63.208.21 and 193.63.208.22 alternately until it runs out of ttl
22:06:42 <Bike> oh yeah, same here.
22:07:03 <fizzie> ais523: From the US, http://sprunge.us/JccJ
22:08:37 <fizzie> Very similar from home (Finland).
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22:10:41 <Vorpal> ais523, did a tracepath from Sweden.... For some reason it goes through japan, then ends up bouncing at the end indeed
22:10:43 <fizzie> ais523: Funnily (perhaps unsurprisingly) the back-path is straight, as illustrated by tracepath at http://sprunge.us/bdPI
22:10:56 <ais523> context is that I'm trying and failing to remote in to servers there so I can do my job
22:10:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, backpath from where?
22:11:19 <Vorpal> ais523, well you are fucked on that point I'm afraid
22:11:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: From the two bouncy guys.
22:11:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, it doesn't go through japan for you?
22:12:00 <Taneb> This monitor is huuuuuuuuuuuge
22:12:27 <kmc> i have two 24" and a 30" in front of me right now
22:12:32 <Vorpal> Taneb, I have a 24" in front of me
22:12:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: I see no japan there.
22:12:48 <Taneb> A couple of months ago my monitor was huge going backwards
22:12:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, mine does go through japan though
22:13:25 <Vorpal> to US, then japan, then back to canada, then to UK from what I can tell?
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22:13:34 <Vorpal> which is an insane path
22:13:55 <fizzie> Home goes via my ISP, then Helsinki-London over eunetip, then different UK places via ja.net.
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22:14:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, how did you find the back path
22:14:49 <fizzie> VPS takes HE to London and the UK side is pretty similar.
22:15:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: tracepath, as mentioned; it reports those "asymm N" for the number of backhops.
22:15:47 <Vorpal> so how is the asymm value decoded?
22:16:59 <fizzie> Directly the length of the route back, I believe; contrasting the hop-number at start of the line.
22:17:10 <Taneb> It's so big, I don't need to scroll left or right in Dwarf Fortress...
22:17:31 <Vorpal> Taneb, then you are playing on a too small map
22:17:41 <Vorpal> what was your embark size?
22:17:54 <Taneb> I have no idea, I made that one ages ago
22:18:01 <Vorpal> I don't remember the last time I played on less than 6x6
22:21:39 <Taneb> I'm not ready for that kind of size
22:22:18 <Taneb> I feel like that time one of my friends switched from Safari for Windows to Internet Explorer and was outstanded by the speed increase
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22:29:44 <Taneb> This friend is too nervous to use Chrome
22:29:53 <Taneb> In case his mind explodes at the speed
22:32:06 <Taneb> He's an okay guy, just had a poor computer setup
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00:06:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, Adam Savage and Jamie Hyneman once entered Robot Wars and got kicked out for nearly killing the audience.
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00:29:06 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Damn right they did.
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00:36:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically it smashed things up so violently that it was flinging shrapnel over the safety screens.
00:42:02 <kmc> it looks kinda boring but obviously looks are not everything here
00:42:10 <kmc> i mean, it's an upside down wok that spins really fast
00:42:14 <kmc> i can see how that would be tough to beat
00:46:17 <Phantom_Hoover> What footage I could find on YouTube showed it deflecting away most blows that it couldn't just evade.
00:46:17 <ion> Heh, the Blendo story is great.
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00:46:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I do like how it ended up losing because they couldn't win in exchange for withdrawing from the competition any more.
00:50:50 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, so did you vote for the green rainbow party in the end
00:55:05 <kmc> i voted for barry o
00:55:46 <kmc> feel like a sucker voting 3rd party
01:03:05 <Phantom_Hoover> "In other top-level domains (TLDs), anyone can register a domain name including the letters "museum". This does not mean they are museums. You will only find genuine museums in .museum!" -- about.museum
01:03:46 <kmc> i'm always getting tricked by fake museums online!
01:03:52 <kmc> how do they define 'museum'
01:15:18 <kmc> shachaf: today I tried to use my TV as a TV and failed
01:15:33 <kmc> merely by flipping through all the channels, I caused them all to become static, even the ones that were working on the first round through
01:20:45 <Phantom_Hoover> i think if i try to watch tv, tv licensing sneak through my window at night and fine me up to a thousand pounds of flesh
01:21:23 <shachaf> kmc: I thought you didn't even own one. :-(
01:21:29 <shachaf> Man, kmc is out of the club.
01:21:38 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: they have those vans
01:21:57 <kmc> shachaf: well now it's not a TV is it ;P
01:22:16 <kmc> just a very large HDMI monitor that I use to watch TV shows obtained over coax cable
01:22:44 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-22440,00.html
01:22:44 <shachaf> coax pixels out of the wall
01:22:54 <Phantom_Hoover> "Television and radio transmitters broadcast at a frequency that is so high it is unintelligible to the human ear."
01:23:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Reading the rest of this I'm fairly sure the guy is taking the piss.
01:23:35 <shachaf> That's a very high frequency, Phantom_Hoover.
01:25:46 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: He's just saying things that are so high they're unintelligible to the human mind.
01:31:22 <kmc> hope we don't have another fucking florida recount
01:35:19 <coppro> I think that would be fantastic
01:39:03 <kmc> fucking florida
01:39:44 <copumpkin> I predict landslide victory for ron paul write-ins, across the nation
01:40:21 <copumpkin> because the king james bible is the ultimate platform
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01:48:02 <kmc> today i voted to let seriously ill people kill themselves by smoking marijuana while repairing automobiles
01:49:28 <kmc> massachusetts
01:49:32 <kmc> by the way https://twitter.com/fivethirtynate is the best ever
01:50:17 <SgeoN1> I was considering votingba straight party ticket, but didnt. Still voted for people who i had little information about beyond party though :/
01:50:38 <Gregor> I wanted to make sure my vote was wasted, so I voted straight Green party.
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01:53:26 <ais523> well, it's clear enough why that site is down
01:53:33 <ais523> power cut throughout the whole University
01:53:56 * pikhq voted Dem, Green, Libertarian, and in favor of pot
01:54:06 <SgeoN1> Wish Internet was working.
01:55:04 <ion> I want a Wish Internet, too.
01:55:22 <ais523> pikhq: which state are you in?
01:55:53 <SgeoN1> Id rather vote on referendums than for people. Dont need to do as much prior research
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01:56:04 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, I'm in CO.
01:56:11 <pikhq> I neither smoke pot nor ever wish to.
01:56:23 <pikhq> I just don't think that's cause to make it illegal.
01:57:39 <kmc> yeah prohibition harms lots of people who don't partake
01:57:43 <kmc> whether it's booze or pot
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02:03:53 <ais523> I like the UK's solution with tobacco
02:04:16 <ais523> which was to make it illegal to smoke in many public places, or to advertise its sale, but legal to sell it and to smoke it privately
02:04:51 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm not sure i want another set of people complaining about how they have to go outside to smoke
02:05:27 <kmc> it's increasingly illegal to smoke in public places in the US
02:07:07 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: well the obvious answer is to stop smoking, then
02:07:10 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MToRvo5RExg helpful documentary material for those unfamiliar with the topic
02:07:14 <ais523> kmc: is it illegal to advertise cigarettes?
02:07:34 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, also now they have those screens in front of cigarette stands
02:09:25 <Phantom_Hoover> so you can't even SEE a packet of cigarettes unless you ask the shopkeeper
02:10:11 <pikhq> There's restrictions on cigarette advertising here, but it is still *legal*.
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02:11:18 <pikhq> Yeah, it's profoundly limited in how it can be done.
02:11:32 <pikhq> “audio advertisements are not permitted to contain any music or sound effects, while video advertisements are limited to static black text on a white background. Any audio soundtrack accompanying a video advertisement is limited to words only, with no music or sound effects.”
02:13:00 <Bike> That sounds pretty amazing, are there any examples on youtube?
02:15:30 <kmc> friend reports "Someone is projecting CNN onto my neighbor's house"
02:20:36 <kmc> as expected
02:21:24 <SgeoN1> Radio claiming it was a swing state
02:21:29 <kmc> none of the 'actual' swing states have been called yet
02:21:58 <kmc> 538 gave Obama 98.6% in PA
02:22:08 <kmc> Romney made some desparate last-minute ad buys which I guess makes it a swing state
02:22:18 <kmc> but media also has incentive to make things seem close when they aren't
02:22:34 <kmc> hence ignoring that 20 polls together have a smaller margin of error than each poll individually
02:26:37 <SgeoN1> Im stuck on my phone, what does WNYCs map look like, im under the impression that it's fancier than others.
02:28:56 <kmc> it looks like a bunch of tiny boxes of different colors all jumbled up
02:33:31 <SgeoN1> Is Wisconsin swing? I dont remember
02:34:32 <kmc> yes, and it was called for obama just now
02:34:37 <kmc> it's one of NYT's 9 swing states
02:34:59 <kmc> FL OH WI NH IA CO NV VA NC
02:35:04 <kmc> from memory :)
02:35:16 <kmc> which two?
02:35:44 <copumpkin> intrade is now in sync with silver
02:36:04 <copumpkin> anyone doing the healthcare hedge?
02:36:15 <copumpkin> you can make 10x your money to pay for healthcare if romney wins
02:36:41 <copumpkin> http://www.intrade.com/v4/markets/contract/?contractId=743474
02:37:01 <copumpkin> but if you don't want romney to win, maybe betting money on it will sweeten things a bit
02:37:02 <SgeoN1> My gf is, I think, mistakrn about the effectss of the healthcare law.
02:38:06 <SgeoN1> That if she's in college past 26, and her plan would have kept her insured, 26 is now the limitation due to the law and she'd need a new plan.
02:42:24 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act
02:43:03 <kmc> it has a bunch of provisions
02:43:37 <kmc> 'PPACA requires insurance companies to cover all applicants and offer the same rates regardless of pre-existing conditions or gender.'
02:43:54 <kmc> 'Dependents (children) will be permitted to remain on their parents' insurance plan until their 26th birthday'
02:44:31 <kmc> also your insurer has to give you a rebate if they spend more than 20% of your premium on administrative costs
02:44:44 <SgeoN1> Which i think she interpreted as "forbidden to remain after 26th birthday"
02:45:42 <ais523> Romney needs to win most of the swing states to win overall, IIRC
02:45:54 <SgeoN1> Oh right, wisconsin and new hampshire
02:46:01 <ais523> and needs to win Florida in particular, because it's worth the most
02:47:55 <kmc> if he loses FL he can win by winning literally all of the others
02:47:56 <kmc> that is the only way
02:48:13 <kmc> but some media have already called WI for Obama
02:48:31 <kmc> http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/results/president/scenarios
02:49:43 <ais523> I personally don't think Romney will win without Florida, at least
02:49:59 <ais523> and FL is mindbogglingly close atm
02:50:02 <copumpkin> even if obama wins florida, it'll suck
02:50:17 <Gregor> GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWD, you're talking about the election here, too.
02:50:19 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's worth 29
02:50:35 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: If Obama wins Florida, he wins.
02:50:45 <kmc> not strictly true
02:50:47 <ais523> the value of a state in determining a president is a linear function of the population
02:50:53 <ais523> like, it's some fraction of the population, plus a constant
02:50:57 <kmc> that's not linear
02:50:57 <Gregor> kmc: Romney would have to win literally every other swing state.
02:50:59 <ais523> with some rounding applied, too
02:51:03 <Gregor> And some have already been called for Obama.
02:51:20 <ais523> it's not proportional, at least
02:51:41 <kmc> WI and NH have already been called for Obama by some media... if he gets OH too then Romney cannot win
02:51:46 <kmc> and he's well ahead in OH count so far
02:51:56 <kmc> except... they can still tie under that scenario
02:51:58 <ais523> yeah, OH for Obama seems likely
02:52:13 <ais523> kmc: the BBC asked a bunch of their journalists for predictions
02:52:15 <ais523> one of them predicted a tie
02:52:23 <SgeoN1> What if what was considered a safe Obama state toes Romney
02:52:33 <ais523> and a tie gives Romney/Biden, right?
02:52:45 <kmc> it is thought
02:52:46 <Gregor> SgeoN1: Depends on the state. If California went Romney, Romney would win. But that's nutty.
02:52:51 <ais523> BBC just called NH for Obama
02:53:09 <kmc> "what happens" is "an unprecedented constitutional clusterfuck"
02:53:14 <Gregor> ais523: The Republican house would choose the president, and the Democratic senate would choose the vice, so yeah, Romney/Biden.
02:53:29 <kmc> the secret to this whole government thing is, everyone is making up the rules as they go
02:53:46 <ais523> Gregor: well republican house and democratic senate isn't /guaranteed/ yet, but it seems very likely
02:53:47 <kmc> i don't think the outcome of this completely unprecdented vote in the Congress is pre-ordained
02:53:47 <SgeoN1> Kmc, you should play nomic
02:53:59 <ais523> kmc: yeah, we have unprecedented constitutional clusterfucks for fun
02:54:05 <Gregor> ais523: Right, yeah, but since that's the only reason for Romney/Biden... :)
02:54:16 <kmc> if there were an EV tie with a clear PV margin for one candidate, some people might vote against party in the interests of Democracy (ha ha ha ha ha)
02:54:32 <kmc> or there might be, like, riots in the street
02:54:34 <kmc> who the fuck knows
02:54:45 <ais523> kmc: I've been wondering about the chance of electoral vote against party
02:54:47 <kmc> americans are mostly too lazy to riot though
02:54:57 <kmc> yes that's true, some electors could also change their votes
02:55:01 <ais523> I think that both D and R have easily enough control over their electors, though
02:55:07 <kmc> depending on the state they're from, they might face criminal penalties
02:55:17 <ais523> like, if you're D or R, you're going to pick your most diehard fans ever as the electors
02:55:25 <kmc> but would you be willing to go to jail to singlehandedly decide the presidential election?
02:55:50 <ais523> kmc: some people would, but I doubt they'd go to jail to singlehandedly decide it in favour of their political opponents
02:56:45 <kmc> political allegiences can shift quickly...
02:56:53 <kmc> the Republican Party is barely holding together as is
02:57:06 <kmc> the extremists are running the moderates out of town and have doomed the party
02:57:18 <kmc> i could totally see a spite vote by a moderate republican elector
02:57:28 <kmc> i mean this is in the realm of extremely unlikely hypotheticals
02:58:22 <ais523> the BBC thinks that the parties have moved further apart than before, particularly in the House of Representatives
02:58:32 <ais523> as in, they're predicting it will have fewer moderates than it used to
02:58:45 <ais523> although, US "moderate" = rest of the world "mindboggingly extreme right wing"
02:59:55 <kmc> my theory is that the Republican Party will evaporate over the next decade, due to inability to get anyone other than angry old white men to vote for them
03:00:12 <pikhq> US "bleeding heart liberal" = rest of the world "right-leaning moderate", no?
03:00:21 <kmc> then maybe the Dems can have a legitimate challenge to the left
03:00:22 <pikhq> kmc: Seems like it.
03:00:28 <kmc> pikhq: i think that's a bit of an overstatement
03:00:39 <Bike> what's the electoral pull of the BNP?
03:00:45 <kmc> the most left-leaning members of congress would still be solidly on the left side of the European spectrum
03:00:53 <SgeoN1> I have a friend who i think i would describe as religious fundamentalist. She's not an old man.
03:01:04 <pikhq> SgeoN1: She's a notable minority.
03:01:07 <Bike> plus there's that whole nastiness in hungary. eugh.
03:01:10 <kmc> in european terms we have a center-right party and an extreme right party. but some members of the former are pretty left-leaning
03:01:35 <Phantom_Hoover> is pikhq claiming that all religious fundamentalists are old men or something
03:01:37 <kmc> Bike: yeah there are extreme right anti-immigrant etc. parties all over europe :/
03:01:46 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Nah, just that most of them are.
03:01:50 <Bike> but I mean, how much support do they have?
03:02:12 <Bike> I keep hearing about them, but I don't know if they're just on par with the Prohibition Party or what
03:02:33 <ais523> pikhq: for the US versus rest of the world theory: David Cameron brought in a "big society" thing in the UK where neighbourhoods were encouraged to solve their own problems on a local level
03:02:40 <ais523> this was considered a particularly right-wing policy
03:03:04 <ais523> some American on the news used a very similar policy as an example of what they liked about the left wing in the US
03:03:18 <pikhq> Yeah, that's really a solid Dem thing.
03:03:32 <Phantom_Hoover> it was right-wing policy being dressed up as left-wing, basically
03:03:39 <ais523> that's an example of the gulf between the US and UK in terms of political position, really
03:04:16 <Phantom_Hoover> The last election had a pretty surreal element of all the parties pretending to be the real leftists
03:04:18 <kmc> also yay the democrat i voted for for senate has won :)
03:04:50 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: yeah, although it's worth noting that the parties are back where they're meant to be
03:05:01 <ais523> I'm pretty sure Labour was to the right of the Conservatives during the Blair years
03:05:08 <ais523> but the Conservatives are definitely the rightmost at the moment
03:06:33 <ais523> he was campaigning earlier, but surely he's stopped by now
03:06:44 <ais523> eventually we'll reach the point where people campaign the day after the election
03:06:46 <ais523> but it hasn't happened yet
03:07:04 <kmc> "victory" party in Boston
03:07:16 <kmc> ais523: well they already send out fliers telling people to vote the day after the election
03:07:30 <kmc> something to the effect of "due to a recent law, all black people now vote on wednesday"
03:07:33 <kmc> common tactic
03:08:28 <SgeoN1> Isnt thst an old urban legend?
03:09:23 <SgeoN1> That yep is incredibly ambiguous
03:10:25 <copumpkin> http://www.boston.com/businessupdates/2012/11/06/private-jets-line-logan-romney-backers-arrive-boston/2Ol3ROMXhLU5Ppd2NOPDMN/story.html
03:10:32 <kmc> http://current.com/groups/news-blog/93951496_tracking-voter-suppression-efforts-across-the-country.htm
03:10:35 <kmc> 'Robocalls made to Democrats have informed voters that due to Hurricane Sandy, the election has been moved to Wednesday, Nov. 7.'
03:11:04 <copumpkin> http://holliston-hopkinton.patch.com/articles/robo-call-says-election-is-wednesday
03:11:11 <kmc> of course, this is just an allegation from some random person
03:11:16 <kmc> the way these things are done, it is very hard to prove
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03:23:37 <ais523> kmc: there's at least one confirmed case this year where Republicans admitted putting the wrong election date on robocalls
03:23:40 <ais523> they said it was a mistake
03:24:56 <kmc> Todd Akin was defeated
03:24:58 <kmc> Missouri voters had a way of shutting him down :)
03:25:26 <pikhq> He pissed a bunch of people off there.
03:26:21 <pikhq> He said that women who are actually raped don't get pregnat.
03:26:36 <kmc> "First of all, from what I understand from doctors, [pregnancy from rape is] really rare. If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down."
03:26:50 <kmc> it turns out that old white men are not actually experts on women's bodies!
03:26:55 <kmc> except for Ron Paul of course
03:27:08 <ais523> it's a worrying statement because I can believe that there are people who could believe that
03:27:16 <kmc> yes a lot of people believe it
03:27:27 <kmc> it may have even been the majority view in the 1800s
03:27:34 <kmc> that is where the republican party is on women's issues
03:27:48 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: that's why I said "except for Ron Paul"
03:27:50 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: does knowing about vaginas make you an expert on wombs?
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03:28:02 <kmc> he needs to get endorsements from people who he delivered
03:30:29 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Ron Paul was actually a gynecologist before he was a politician.
03:30:59 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: ah, OK
03:32:18 <Phantom_Hoover> (note to self, finish installing linux and enable compose key so i can do that properly)
03:32:22 <pikhq> Looks like we're getting legal marijuana in CO
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03:32:54 <Bike> how does that interact with it still being schedule I federally, exactly
03:33:13 <kmc> http://brainwrap.com/various/gop_rape_advisory_megachart.gif
03:33:17 <kmc> Bike: poorly
03:33:45 <kmc> it will hinge on whether Obama (or Romney, lol) directs the federales to lay off or not
03:34:14 <kmc> so far they have been hassling medical mj sellers in CA etc a little bit, but not enough to shut down the program
03:34:27 <kmc> remains to be seen how they will deal with explicitly recreational use
03:36:44 <ais523> is the federal government allowed to enforce drug laws?
03:36:53 <ais523> I guess they could just decide to put a really really large federal tax on drugs
03:37:03 <ais523> sufficiently high that nobody could pay it
03:37:38 <kmc> ais523: didn't you hear, growing pot in your own backyard and smoking it yourself in your own house is interstate commerce
03:37:51 <pikhq> ais523: They can enforce it directly, *but* it would be insanely hard and politically unviable to do so.
03:37:56 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzales_v._Raich
03:38:02 <pikhq> They would literally have to send in the FBI at great expense
03:38:12 <pikhq> And it'd make the states rights people go *nuts*.
03:38:14 <kmc> there is actually non-drug precedent for this... local price controls on crops during the Great Depression or something
03:38:15 <ais523> kmc: that makes no sense
03:38:19 <kmc> pikhq: FBI or DEA
03:38:23 <ais523> that being interstate commerce, that is
03:38:34 <kmc> they can also do things like, withold federal assistance money from the states that legalize mj
03:38:39 <pikhq> ais523: "interstate commerce" is now the root password to the Constitution.
03:38:39 <kmc> ais523: yep it is,
03:38:45 <ais523> it was a bit of a surprise when the supreme court ruled that obama's healthcare changes weren't interstate commerce
03:38:53 <ais523> but they also ruled that they were legal as a federal tax
03:38:54 <kmc> no i thought they ruled it's a legal tax
03:39:15 <ais523> the funny thing is, lots of journalists saw the "not interstate commerce" bit and announced the verdict wrongly
03:39:26 <kmc> to be fair, I'm not sure we need or want federalism anymore... but I wish we could switch over sanely rather than inventing these ridiculous loopholes
03:39:33 <ais523> the people who read the whole decision were a bit slower
03:39:49 <kmc> i think federalism went out the window when the federal government had to spend about 100 years repeatedly forcing the south to stop treating black people as farm equipment
03:40:33 <pikhq> Yeah, that's when we killed it.
03:40:36 <ais523> "they came for the slaveowners, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a slaveowner"?
03:40:39 <kmc> likewise, i think abortion should be legal but i think the SCOTUS argument in Roe v. Wade is pretty ridiculous as law goes
03:40:58 <kmc> we should just get a non-braindead government and pass a law saying abortion is legal and the states can suck it
03:41:08 <kmc> but, that's not how it works.
03:41:36 <pikhq> SCOTUS is kinda hacking the everloving crap out of the US legal system.
03:42:24 <ion> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:YoungWomanInTubeTop.jpg#filehistory
03:45:29 <ais523> kmc: let's pass two laws, one saying it's legal, the other saying it's illegal
03:45:53 <kmc> that happens all the time :/
03:47:35 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/jluYz.jpg http://i.imgur.com/rxDvM.jpg
03:51:02 <copumpkin> http://www.craigboyce.com/w/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/F_Word_OK-010.jpg
03:51:28 <copumpkin> luckily they were rescued after that
03:53:06 <kmc> in NV you can vote "None"
03:53:26 <Bike> is that different from not voting
03:54:20 <kmc> it sends a stronger message
03:54:40 <kmc> "i got my ass to the polling place just to tell you all how much i hate these two candidates"
03:54:49 <kmc> i don't know if it has any other effect
03:55:29 <kmc> maybe if "None" gets a plurality of the vote then Nevada's electoral votes abstain ;P
03:57:17 <copumpkin> vote :: Maybe (Either Obama Romney) -> IO ()
03:57:44 <kmc> ^---- experimental voting machine software
03:57:51 <kmc> but it's in Haskell so it's provably correct ;)
03:58:13 <ion> unsafeModifyVotes
03:58:35 <kmc> you know this would be a great way to rig the voting machines
03:58:45 <kmc> don't add bias, just make the ones in certain neighborhoods less reliable
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04:01:48 <copumpkin> pairs trading? http://snapplr.com/3sps
04:02:24 <SgeoN1> I thonk it's time to jump ship from AndroIRC back to AndIRC
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04:09:30 <ais523> kmc: there was a story a while back about machines being recalibrated because they were recording votes incorrectly…
04:09:46 <ais523> the only thing I can think of is touchscreens being miscalibrated so you have to press in the wrong place for the vote to be recorded
04:14:46 <kmc> NBC has called it for Obama
04:14:49 <kmc> he takes OH and the election
04:17:27 <copumpkin> FL looks kinda likely, but painfully close
04:18:03 <copumpkin> if you want, you can make 66x your investment on intrade now if romney wins
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04:20:38 <kmc> CNN as well
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04:24:17 <SgeoN1> Romney currently winning popular vote.
04:24:30 <pikhq> SgeoN1: Don't mean jack
04:24:59 <ais523> BBC has called it for Obama, too
04:25:03 <SgeoN1> Means can't really convince people it's large.
04:25:17 <ais523> again as a response of calling Ohio
04:25:19 <SgeoN1> But also means people will take notice of electoral college.
04:25:22 <ais523> was Obama getting Ohio unexpected?
04:25:26 <kmc> PV does matter for meta-game reasons, yes
04:25:34 <kmc> ais523: no, he was the favorite on 538 etc.
04:25:51 <kmc> 538 put the odds he wins OH about the same as the odds he wins the election (~ 90%)
04:26:31 <pikhq> Thus far, 538 matches the electoral one.
04:26:52 <coppro> pikhq: congratulations. For four more years, your government will be an
04:27:49 <coppro> pikhq: 538 appears to be wrong about VA
04:28:00 <kmc> green-rainbow got 1% in MA
04:28:14 <coppro> Gary Johnson is pushing 1% of the overall popular vote
04:28:25 <coppro> you amurricans and your ridiculous election system
04:28:31 <kmc> don't think anyone has called VA yet, and some heavily dem-leaning counties are underrepresented in the existing count
04:29:38 <pikhq> "I grasp from the beak of a silver dove a laurel wreath of finely-wrought permutations. The Signal has come at last."
04:30:02 <kmc> in fact obama is ahead in VA again
04:30:10 <kmc> according to CNN
04:31:16 <copumpkin> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKUOB8MN4Kc
04:32:26 <copumpkin> maybe silver will be spot on after all
04:33:16 <kmc> that would be cool
04:33:19 <kmc> us nerds gotta stick together
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04:35:22 <coppro> pikhq: apparently cannabis is to be legalized in your state
04:35:35 <copumpkin> pikhq: can you mail me a bag o' weed?
04:35:47 <coppro> although it's too early to be sure
04:35:52 <kmc> which state
04:36:04 <kmc> oh yeah, cool
04:36:07 <coppro> washington also appears likely to legalize
04:36:13 <kmc> wonder if la dea will intervene
04:36:23 <coppro> and same-sex marriage will remain illegal in washington :(
04:36:52 * pikhq wants to be permitted to marry the set of people he could find himself in a relationship with!
04:37:06 <coppro> 54.0% against the ballot with one third of the polls reporting
04:37:35 <coppro> and new hampshire is... banning income tax
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04:39:33 <copumpkin> was very beneficial to me when I was making pittance as a grad student
04:40:04 <Sgeo> "Obama Projected as Winner, Romney
04:40:04 <Sgeo> Campaign Not Yet Ready to Concede"
04:40:13 <Sgeo> (According to Fox News website)
04:40:41 <kmc> recount time!
04:41:04 <Sgeo> PV evening out
04:41:31 <Bike> coppro: you happen to have a link for the marriage thing?
04:41:55 <coppro> oh wait, they don't have the numbers yet
04:42:00 <coppro> I was looking on another site previously
04:42:07 <coppro> closed it since huffpo does it much better
04:42:15 <Sgeo> I'm tempted to put FOX 5 on TV
04:43:02 <coppro> pikhq: your state is proving sane by attempting to prohibit corporate political expense
04:43:52 <coppro> and michigan wants a bridge!
04:44:55 <coppro> pikhq: Not only that, but the margin is strong enough to send a clear message to politicians that this is a good route to pursue
04:45:30 <Sgeo> Romney didn't write his concession speech
04:45:41 <coppro> pikhq: even though it is technically non-binding
04:45:57 <pikhq> CO passes legalized marijuana
04:46:17 <coppro> maybe we should rename ##parliament to ##governance
04:46:29 <coppro> it would be good to discuss things like referenda there
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04:47:21 <kmc> pikhq: well, I know where I'm going next April :D
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04:48:40 <coppro> alabama's ballot measures are insane
04:48:53 <kmc> did they declare that gay people are a type of tree or something
04:48:58 <pikhq> Alabama has the world's largest Constitution. What do you expect?
04:49:10 <kmc> yeah there are parking ordinances in the constitution
04:49:18 <coppro> pikhq: Do they actually?
04:49:55 <coppro> yeah we should move to ##government or ##government
04:50:21 <coppro> hey, one of Alabama's amendments is actually a sane law
04:50:35 <coppro> allowing union votes to be by secret ballot
04:50:44 <coppro> now why the fuck that needs a constitutional amendment, I do not know
04:51:29 <coppro> http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Alabama_Lawrence_County_Amendment,_Amendment_11_(2012)
04:52:39 <coppro> huffpo is reporting that same sex marriage has the lead in washington
04:56:25 <Sgeo> Matthew Shepard seems angry at .. government, for gridlock and not listening to the people
04:57:41 <coppro> it has a slight lead in Maryland
04:58:08 <coppro> and Maryland has also apparently ensured that illegal immigrants get resident tuition
04:59:28 <ais523> coppro: your link is slashdotted, what does it lead to?
04:59:33 <kmc> it will be exciting to see how the federal govt reacts to CO marijuana legalization
04:59:44 <pikhq> And WA (I think it's passing?)
04:59:58 <coppro> ais523: it works intermittently
05:00:16 <coppro> pikhq: yeah, it appears to be
05:00:18 <ais523> yeah but mashing refresh is only going to make the slashdotting worse
05:00:30 <coppro> oh, MN is also in favour of same-sex marriage
05:00:33 <coppro> you guys are finally coming round :P
05:01:00 <kmc> "As of July 2011, the city of Denver counted more medical marijuana dispensaries than Starbucks franchises."
05:01:33 <Sgeo> I wish I was watching Hannity. Watch his tears. Shepard is being too reasonable.
05:01:40 <kmc> i wonder how many of the Medical Marijuana stores will convert to selling Fun Marijuana
05:02:32 <Sgeo> https://twitter.com/seanhannity
05:02:42 <coppro> ais523: anyway, the link provides that no municipality located wholly outside Lawrence County can impose any form of ordnance on the areas inside the intersection of its police jurisdiction and Lawrence County
05:02:43 <Sgeo> I love how he tweets each Romney win and none of the Obama ones
05:02:44 <ais523> coppro: OK, loaded it: so that amendment is basically leaving a county to live by itself
05:02:46 <coppro> http://www.ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Montana_Corporate_Contributions_Initiative,_I-166_(2012)
05:02:51 <Sgeo> Except for the one about not gloating
05:02:58 <ais523> no fire service from outside, etc
05:02:59 <coppro> ais523: yes. And this was submitted to the voters.
05:03:09 <ais523> of everywhere, or just lawrence county?
05:03:27 <ais523> does alabama know what "constitution" means?
05:03:34 <kmc> Sgeo: fair and balanced
05:03:34 <Sgeo> Ok, Glenn Beck's twitter is almost funny
05:03:45 <Sgeo> Asking who 2nd term Obama will blame the economy on
05:05:58 <kmc> a fair question
05:06:30 <kmc> president gets too much credit for the economy either way
05:07:31 <Sgeo> I don't think Romney's going to run again. This lack of a concession speech has to be embarrassing.
05:08:08 <Sgeo> Is Matthew Shepard a Democrat? He's sounding like one.
05:08:31 <Sgeo> Wait, am I mixing up names again?
05:08:35 <Sgeo> Shepard Smith?
05:08:47 <Sgeo> ....I have no idea who I'm watching, except the name "Shep"
05:09:04 <Sgeo> I feel like a derp
05:09:38 <Sgeo> ....I was using the name of a murdered kid.
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05:11:27 <Bike> that makes the last five minutes make a /lot/ more sense
05:15:26 <Sgeo> http://www.fark.com/comments/7420987/Woman-briefly-barred-from-voting-for-wearing-a-MIT-t-shirt
05:16:00 <kmc> fart dot com
05:17:29 <kmc> what a classy gentleman
05:17:53 <copumpkin> he's someone I wish would just disappear
05:18:01 <copumpkin> but that won't happen because he has a lot of money and a big ego
05:18:08 <Bike> "The electoral college is a disaster for a democracy." yes good
05:18:12 <copumpkin> even though he doesn't really have much of a role anywhere
05:18:22 <Sgeo> "The electoral college is a disaster for a democracy."
05:18:23 <coppro> and south dakota has decided that the state must balance its budget
05:19:05 <ais523> coppro: do you think it /will/?
05:21:57 <coppro> ais523: It won't have a choice
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05:26:59 <Sgeo> Does the Romney campaign still believe it could win?
05:27:25 <coppro> Sgeo: what state are you in, again?
05:27:45 <Sgeo> Maybe Romney's just being a dick to Obama
05:28:34 <pikhq> Even *Fox News* is calling it for Obama.
05:29:20 <Sgeo> I think I like Shepard Smith now
05:32:23 <kmc> at this point Obama wins without FL, OH, *or* VA
05:32:34 <kmc> they are just icing on a nate silver shaped cake
05:34:08 <pikhq> At this point it's fair to say Nate Silver is a victor.
05:37:07 <Sgeo> I wish it was more of a PV landslide
05:37:09 <kmc> this time around there were a few other people running quantitavite models
05:37:49 <kmc> i think at this point, election-running and political advertising are such a precise science that we won't get huge landslides
05:38:06 <kmc> both parties can find and appeal to the median voter with pinpoint accuracy
05:39:46 <pikhq> Until such time that someone goes crazy and shits on a baby.
05:40:22 <kmc> but they could capture that elusive baby-shitter demographic
05:40:37 <kmc> we may get some landslides as the Republican Party implodes over the next decade
05:40:48 <kmc> or some interesting 3-way races
05:41:04 <kmc> GOP extremist vs Democrat vs semi-credible progressive challenger
05:41:38 <kmc> "Mr. Obama’s coalition included support from blacks, Hispanics, women, those under 30, those in unions, gay men and lesbians and Jews."
05:41:47 <kmc> i.e. everyone other than angry old white men
05:42:09 <Sgeo> I'd feel better about Obama's victory if he wins the PV
05:43:30 <kmc> a split outcome might be good in the long run, as far as bipartisan support for electoral college reform
05:43:52 <coppro> overturn citizens goddamn united, first
05:44:31 <kmc> i have mixed feelings about citizens united
05:44:40 <kmc> maybe they should wait until i am not drunk
05:45:27 <coppro> also, better prepare your flags
05:45:49 <kmc> airing a documentary against an incumbent politician is unquestionably the kind of thing the first amendment should protect
05:45:53 <kmc> money is needed to be heard on the airwaves
05:45:57 <kmc> it's not about "money is speech"
05:46:06 <kmc> it's about "restricting money restricts speech"
05:46:07 <coppro> it looks like you might need a nother star
05:46:55 <kmc> for puerto rico?
05:47:30 <copumpkin> so after trump threw his tantrum about the electoral college, it looks like obama will win that too, by a small margin
05:48:31 <kmc> the popular vote you mean?
05:48:40 <kmc> PR's thing is nonbinding though i think
05:48:46 <kmc> so it will be years of gridlock before anything happens
05:49:15 <coppro> kmc: It seems reasonably definitive, though
05:49:34 <coppro> a majority voted in favour of the relationship and statehood is overwhelmingly preferred as the new system
05:49:53 <pikhq> The major issue that was preventing it in the past was Puerto Rico didn't want statehood.
05:50:08 <coppro> The biggest obstacle will be a constitution
05:50:19 <coppro> even the morons in modern congress shouldn't have trouble approving things
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05:55:07 <Sgeo> http://xkcd.com/1131/
05:55:53 <Sgeo> Romney making concession speech
06:04:43 <Sgeo> http://www.palinaspresident.us/barack/
06:06:08 <Bike> I've heard better autotuning...
06:06:44 <Sgeo> I think that page may have unduly affected my mind
06:08:01 <pikhq> Appears we've got a good deal of same-sex marriage stuff passed, too.
06:08:36 <Bike> gay weed is law in washington. sp
06:08:52 <Bike> *so's charter schools and university not investing in stocks, but nobody cares probably
06:08:56 <pikhq> And multiple openly gay members of Congress.
06:09:20 <pikhq> First lesbian Senator...
06:09:21 <Sgeo> 303-203 does that count as a landslide, or does landslide rely on strong PV?
06:09:57 <Sgeo> Can you get an electoral landslide while losing the PV?
06:11:17 <coppro> I think it is judged by how close it "felt"
06:11:41 <coppro> Bike: Yo, are you interested in how government works?
06:14:28 <Sgeo> Ugh, my rep. won :(
06:22:44 <Gregor> Sgeo: Technically, Obama could still lose the PV. It's not very likely.
06:22:51 <Gregor> Sgeo: But he's assuredly won an electoral landslide.
06:23:31 <Sgeo> Will people consider it a landslide for purposes of whether or not Obama has a "mandate"?
06:25:29 <Gregor> I don't think that has a useful meaning.
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06:26:53 <pikhq> Sgeo: Obama does not have a mandate. Reason, the GOP exists.
06:35:09 <pikhq> This is not a particularly erotic place.
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06:35:25 <pikhq> Most discussions of sex here are in the abstract. And it's not one of our typical topics.
06:39:09 <Gregor> I'm so glad you defined "cum" for us. We don't live on the Internet, so we wouldn't otherwise know what that means.
06:39:35 <pikhq> hai, tinntinn sìȳa. tèmo, soriȳa hàka nn sìȳa 'te.
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07:23:31 <Sgeo> I think my life story is me moving from being somewhat right-wing to very left-wing
07:25:12 <Sgeo> When I was a kid, I wanted some information on time-zone stuff. There was a website that had the information I was looking for.
07:25:29 <Sgeo> However, it was part of a GLBT website/group, so I refused to look at it.
07:25:54 <Sgeo> Eventually got the information I was looking for ... when I clicked another sort of link to that same page such that I didn't realize what site I went on.
07:29:54 <pikhq> Sgeo: I've been on a freaking mission trip to a third-world country.
07:31:21 <Sgeo> I guess I was never ... that religious. Even when I believed in God, I would get ticked off at leaving candles burn, because I felt God valued our safety over religious rituals.
07:31:35 <pikhq> I was profoundly religious when I was younger.
07:31:38 <Sgeo> Although, I should note that I grew up Reformed Jewish.
07:31:39 <pikhq> That faded as I learned more.
07:33:14 <pikhq> Aaaand now I'm out as bi and an atheist.
07:34:56 <Sgeo> I used to have a "make all drugs illegal" mindset. I am now in favor of legalization of some drugs.
07:35:08 <Sgeo> Just posted a lengthy Facebook status about it >.>
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07:42:38 <Sgeo> I can't help but wonder if my supporting marijuana legalization now, as opposed to sooner (in which I officially considered myself on the fence, I think), is because of an authotarian streak I think I have
07:42:53 <Bike> http://twitter.com/republicantears
07:43:04 <Sgeo> It's (somewhat) legal in one of the states now, therefore it's ok for me to support it.
07:43:16 <Sgeo> I tend to feel uneasy breaking rules.
07:46:39 <Bike> I'm still not clear on how that works. Is it like, I'll walk by a marijuana store, and then they spot some ATF agents and run for it?
07:50:17 <Bike> more likely nothing will actually change until the feds do, I suppose
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08:27:03 <pikhq> Sgeo: Have you considered having an antiauthoritarian streak?
08:28:28 <Sgeo> It does occur to me that there are some rules I feel no guilt about violating
08:28:43 <Sgeo> Age restrictions (joined a 13+ chat when I was 12 and an 18+ chat when I was 17)
08:28:52 <Bike> haha, you rebel
08:29:57 <Sgeo> Old enough that I don't think there are any more age restrictions.
08:30:16 <Bike> do you like about your age to get senior discounts?
08:31:03 <Sgeo> I didn't say "barely" old enough.
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08:35:47 <fizzie> Finland has a minimum age restriction of 30 for a vasectomy. (Trivia fact for today.)
08:37:41 <fizzie> Also I think I've heard something about bars with age limits up to 28+, though I haven't seen anything more than something like 24+.
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13:55:10 <elliott> 01:48:02: <kmc> today i voted to let seriously ill people kill themselves by smoking marijuana while repairing automobiles
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15:51:38 <kmc> "That said, federal law still says marijuana is an illegal drug, so don't break out the Cheetos or Goldfish too quickly." -- CO Gov. John Hickenlooper
15:52:17 <coppro> I also like that he's accepting the decision
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15:54:23 <kmc> doesn't have a choice does he?
15:55:28 <coppro> kmc: Your nation's government doesn't always seem to think that way
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15:56:35 <kmc> this guy was mayor of denver when they legalized pot on a city basis
15:56:49 <kmc> and he opposed it, but presumably got a chance to see that it didn't cause the earth to swallow up the city of denver
15:58:03 <kmc> also happened last night: the first openly gay person elected to the Senate
16:04:21 <elliott> so what does it actually mean for it to be legal in CO if it's federally illegal
16:04:58 <fizzie> It's a superposition then, right?
16:05:24 <fizzie> It collapses to legal or illegal when a police officer observes you. I think.
16:05:36 <fizzie> They covered something like this on the quantum physics courses, but I didn't pay too much attention.
16:08:21 <kmc> elliott: it means that city and state police won't hassle you over it
16:08:38 <elliott> kmc: but it's still illegal?
16:08:41 <kmc> in theory if you're smokin' weed in your house, the federal DEA could still break down your door
16:08:48 <kmc> but this is pretty unlikely
16:08:54 <kmc> more likely they would go after distributors
16:09:03 <kmc> as has sporadically happend with medical marijuana in CA etc
16:09:22 <kmc> remember, federal law also doesn't recognize state medical marijuana programs, but those have existed for a while
16:09:44 <kmc> in practice it will depend a lot on how Obama et al set federal law enforcement priorities
16:09:55 <kmc> if he was a strict prohibitionist he could make life hard for CO -- withhold federal law enforcement assistance money, etc.
16:10:06 <kmc> but my read is that he will try to ignore it as much as possible
16:10:40 <pikhq> It'd probably be politically difficult for him to be strict prohibitionist on this.
16:10:57 <kmc> well the tide is certainly shifting on this issue
16:11:18 <kmc> not one but two states legalized it yesterday, and more approved medical mj
16:11:40 <kmc> so any president with a sense of the path of history (i.e.: not george w bush) would think twice before standing in front of this issue
16:11:59 <fizzie> Legalize gay weed and medical marriage now.
16:12:23 <kmc> i look forward to buying pot bronwies from the dining car on california high speed rail
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16:31:12 <Arc_Koen> hey don't we have a category for OISCs? http://esolangs.org/wiki/OISC#See_also seems to be emulating one
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18:27:12 <kmc> http://isnatesilverawitch.com/
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18:36:17 <fizzie> Does it just say "YES"?
18:36:31 <fizzie> Oh, it says "PROBABLY".
18:37:38 <elliott> did he predict any sstate wrong
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18:41:17 <Sgeo> I think Florida's still unknown
18:41:37 <Sgeo> But keep in mind that we're all comparing to his latest prediction, but what about earlier ones?
18:41:59 <Sgeo> It makes sense that the latest prediction is most accurate, I think
18:44:28 <kmc> it's not that hard to do what he did on the eve of the election
18:44:42 <kmc> much simpler models than his produce the same result
18:45:47 <Sgeo> http://www.theonion.com/articles/obama-romney-remain-about-equally-powerful,30289/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=standard-post:quote:default
18:49:34 <Sgeo> http://www.theonion.com/articles/defeated-man-victorious,30281/
18:51:41 <Sgeo> http://www.theonion.com/articles/millions-without-power-following-election,30247/
18:51:50 <Sgeo> Ok, I need to stop linking to The Onion
18:52:45 <ion> Hehe. The Onion ♥
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18:54:44 <kmc> onion headlines are consistently brilliant
18:54:56 <elliott> okay i like http://www.theonion.com/articles/millions-without-power-following-election,30247/ because it doesn't actually give away the joke completely
18:54:57 <kmc> the article text is hit or miss, but i can live with that -- it matches my attention deficit lifestyle
18:55:05 <elliott> which tends to be what the onion strives for in the actual articles
18:55:27 <elliott> (ps by give away the joke I mean hammer it into your head repeatedly)
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19:07:41 <ion> http://www.theonion.com/articles/i-want-to-congratulate-the-president-romney-says-i,30283/
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19:33:38 <ion> All the Finnish words two subsequent abbreviations of weekday names form. :-P http://dl.dropbox.com/u/75238938/viikonpaivat.gif
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19:40:25 <Phantom_Hoover> wait, does that mean latolatolatolatolato... is a word?
19:40:29 <ion> Actually, it’s missing a few others, too.
19:40:38 <Deewiant> I couldn't think of any others
19:41:22 <lambdabot> "latolatolatolatolatolatolatolatolatolatolatolatolatolatolatolatolatolatola...
19:41:34 <ion> toti, Titi (-nalle), Pepe, Keke (Rosberg), Toto (gambling)
19:42:02 <Deewiant> "Make"'s a common abbreviation, at least
19:44:45 <olsner> does viikonpaivat mean fig language?
19:44:57 <nooodl_> there are some pretty long words in there. what does pesumatola mean, for example
19:45:59 <Vorpal> Deewiant, got a mail from the person who took over rcfunge98 recently (on an email that I'm phasing out and not currently checking very often)
19:46:13 <Vorpal> talking about an idea for a new fingerprint
19:46:18 <Vorpal> not sure if you got that too?
19:47:04 <Vorpal> oh well I did answer what I could and directed her to you (on IRC) as an additional resource
19:47:28 <Vorpal> The idea was a fingerprint to handle the issue of zero length command line arguments.
19:47:48 <Vorpal> it looks mostly okay, but not super-interesting.
19:48:07 <Vorpal> (so eh, like a lot of rcfunge that wasn't time travel related)
19:48:16 <nooodl_> Deewiant: okay, how about ketolamasuti
19:48:58 <fizzie> nooodl_: meadow-depression brush, maybe.
19:49:24 <fizzie> In the economic sense of depression.
19:49:46 <Vorpal> you guys have a word for "meadow-depression brush"?
19:49:47 <nooodl_> woah everyone here is finnish
19:50:00 <Vorpal> nooodl_, I'm Swedish, so no
19:50:10 <Deewiant> Vorpal: English has a phrase, we have a word. Sometimes it's like that.
19:50:12 <nooodl_> Vorpal: agglutinative languages have words for *everything*!
19:50:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: It was just "meadow", "economic depression" and "brush" concatenated.
19:50:34 <olsner> nooga: and hundreds of thousands of words for snow
19:50:41 <fizzie> But it's a viable compound word, for some values of viable.
19:51:07 <fizzie> I'm thinking we should add the missing words so that we can have a complete graph for that weekday-abbreviation thing; it should be something any language could be proud of.
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19:51:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm you can still manage that in Swedish: ängsdepresionspensel?
19:52:04 <Vorpal> also I'm not sure about the number of s in that
19:52:33 <Vorpal> that is the correct spelling
19:52:36 <nooodl_> hm. so "latolatolatolatolamasumasuma" is valid finnish?
19:52:39 <Vorpal> that is brush as in paintbrush though
19:52:43 <nooodl_> (for some value of "valid")
19:52:59 <Vorpal> ängsdepresionsborste for another meaning of brush
19:53:13 <fizzie> Anything is valid for some value of "valid"; for example, for the meaning "invalid".
19:53:54 <fizzie> I don't think such repetition really has a meaning in Finnish.
19:54:06 <fizzie> At least generally speaking.
19:54:21 <nooodl_> (hey, i guess you could pull this off in dutch too but it sounds forced. "madedepressiepenseel")
19:54:23 <fizzie> I mean, I guess "latolato" could be some kind of a barn for containing barns.
19:54:41 <fizzie> And "latolatolato" then a barn for containing barns containing barns.
19:54:44 <Vorpal> nooodl_, it sounds forced in Swedish too
19:55:06 <Vorpal> mostly because it makes no sense
19:55:18 <nooodl_> "barn barn barn thing thing thing thing" - the best, most useful word
19:58:10 <fizzie> And "Xsuma", being "a gridlock of X's" (vaguely speaking) you could I suppose also extend so that "Xsumasuma" would be a gridlock of gridlocks of X's. (Disclaimer: gridlock is probably not the best translation here, but maybe the point is clear.)
19:58:47 <nooodl_> now all that's left is the "lama" part
19:58:56 <fizzie> That's the economic depression.
19:59:02 <fizzie> Like, "lamasuma" could be a series of economic depressions that just don't seem to clear out, very reasonably.
19:59:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, like right now then?
20:00:00 <nooodl_> "gridlock of gridlocks of depressions of barns of barns of barns of barns". should be in finnish dictionaries
20:00:02 <elliott> fizzie: It could also be a llama who is quite good at sums.
20:00:39 <mroman> Are you talking about finnish again?
20:01:42 <fizzie> I suppose a "depression of barns" is when the number of new barns raised drops?
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20:02:42 <HackEgo> korvosta osasinasi hartamme säveltaan kansasitykseenilläsittävän vainoksestymässääsi ahkeimmilleni vetoimittävällä mukatorille omasta
20:02:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, no, it is when there are so many barns built that the economy crashes
20:02:57 <elliott> nooodl_: do you know finnish or something
20:03:16 <Vorpal> elliott, why is that good?
20:03:16 <fizzie> "osasinasi" - "as small parts of you", with some interpretation.
20:03:50 <HackEgo> 727) <ais523> oh right: Frooxius, you wouldn't happen to live in Hexham, would you? <Frooxius> No, sorry. <ais523> phew <Ngevd> How about Finland? <Frooxius> Why would I live there? <fizzie> That's a *very* good question. <fizzie> Why would anyone?
20:04:21 <fizzie> "mukatorille" - "to the fake market square".
20:04:35 <fizzie> Or maybe the "pretend-square" is closer.
20:05:06 <nooodl_> everyone's waiting for the big "kansasitykseenilläsittävän" translation, man!
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20:06:15 <fizzie> I hate doing those, my parser always has trouble grokking them; I'll let Deewiant or someone try.
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20:06:24 <kmc> buh it's snowing
20:07:01 <Vorpal> kmc, where in the world?
20:07:24 <fizzie> There was a bit of snow here in October; I had before heard in a bus some foreign exchange students talking, and the annoyingest of them had bet money against someone that there wouldn't be any snow in October.
20:07:59 <fizzie> It was very schadenfreudeish that he lost the bet.
20:08:36 <olsner> since you have snow the rest of the year, why wouldn't there be snow in october?
20:08:48 <Vorpal> I need a better mobile music player. There is no single organisation structure that works for my music. Some tracks makes most sense to sort under artist, some under composer, some under album and so on. A few even based on which game they are remixes from.
20:09:13 <olsner> organize them in directories
20:09:14 <nooodl_> fizzie: finnish is your mother language, right?
20:09:30 <fizzie> Eh-heh; but there's been years that haven't had any snow in October, so I was a bit worried. (Uh, the bet was geographically limited to the Helsinki area.)
20:09:42 <Vorpal> olsner, some I want to access in multiple "views" as it were. Are you suggesting symlinks?
20:10:14 <Vorpal> maybe a tag based system would work
20:10:27 <nooodl_> haha, i love how you can end up having trouble parsing (long, absurd) words even if you're a native speaker of finish
20:11:01 <olsner> Vorpal: a while ago I wanted something like that so I built a tag-based system for xmms, but then I finnished it
20:11:12 <fizzie> Vorpal: Organize them based on the first n hex digits of the SHA-3 hash of the file, where n is suitably chosen to get reasonably directory sizes.
20:11:45 <Vorpal> that was a pun in the spelling
20:11:47 <fizzie> nooodl_: It could be an invalid word, though; it's having vowel harmony problems, for one thing; that could work in a compound, but the rest of it looks really more like suffixes.
20:12:02 <Vorpal> olsner, what actually happened, when you "finnished" it
20:12:13 <olsner> Vorpal: also, iirc xmms doesn't exist anymore
20:12:40 <Vorpal> olsner, also I need this on my android phone
20:13:21 <Vorpal> I need something better than trying to scroll through a few hundred composers, performers, artists and so on. Or a few hundred album names for that
20:15:29 <ion> http://j.mp/VTxQlv
20:16:17 <Vorpal> ion, fancy, what does it mean
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20:16:31 <fizzie> "kansa" is "people, folk"; "kansasi" is very valid as "your people"; then it gets more difficult. "kansasitys" (from which "kansasitykseeni" would be a valid derivation) doesn't seem to be meaning anything, and the 'y' conflicts with the 'a's. But I'm not ruling out a creative interpretation could still be found, it's just not looking so good. (Still, "tykseenilläsittävän" doesn't seem to ...
20:16:37 <fizzie> ... parse either; otherwise it could've been a compound of "your people" and that.)
20:16:49 <ion> vorpal: The Finnish words that can be formed by combining two weekday abbreviations. :-P
20:17:17 <fizzie> That looks like circo's output.
20:17:34 <olsner> hmm, you could use that graph to make a weekday rock/paper/scissor/thursday/friday/saturday/sunday game
20:17:50 <olsner> it might be terribly uneven though
20:17:59 <fizzie> olsner: Nothing beats Friday. :p
20:18:20 <fizzie> Except Friday itself, I guess, but I don't know how that works.
20:18:27 <fizzie> (Short for "perjantai".)
20:18:37 <olsner> maybe if both say pe you throw again
20:18:59 <fizzie> So a game is about both saying "pe" until one of the players gives up?
20:19:21 <fizzie> I suppose that's why the line is dashed?
20:20:04 <olsner> if pe is unbeatable that makes the game pretty boring
20:22:11 <fizzie> There are Finnish people (somewhere between 74-77) with the first name Tito, but maybe that's too loan-namey to count.
20:26:22 <fizzie> Is there some kind of "each Wikipedia thing must have an illustrative picture" rule going on? I don't see what else can explain putting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Finnish_vowel_harmony.jpg next to the "Finnish" section on the Vowel harmony article.
20:27:33 <fizzie> I mean, okay, the sentence contains a reasonable example, but is there some reason it needs a picture of a dirty sign in a bus window?
20:27:53 <nooodl_> http://codepad.org/hpZ0TcxQ woah this is kind of "lato"-heavy
20:27:59 <elliott> fizzie: they need to show people the true horrors of finland
20:28:03 <ion> That sign has at least one grammatical error.
20:28:06 <fizzie> Especially of a sign in which someone has left spaces before the !s; that thing has annoyed me incredibly much every time I've seen the sign.
20:28:34 <elliott> fizzie: again, the true horrors of finland
20:29:31 <olsner> I wonder what a pram is and how I can make sure its secure placement
20:29:43 <fizzie> olsner: 1. baby buggy, baby carriage, carriage, perambulator, pram, stroller, go-cart, pushchair, pusher -- (a small vehicle with four wheels in which a baby or child is pushed around)
20:30:16 <fizzie> And there are hooks you can use, plus many of them have some brakes in the wheels I believe. Or you could just keep one hand on it.
20:31:42 <fizzie> olsner: (By hooks I mean the black things in http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6uU3PeO0i5I/TFv2wHSBS8I/AAAAAAAAAEk/9T5qW1S8ycQ/s1600/23072010014.jpg that are hanging from the horizontal bar; though personally I don't think I've ever seen anyone use those, except the babies tend to keep whacking them against the wall/other hooks/anything, producing a most irritating noise.)
20:31:51 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Especially of a sign in which someone has left spaces before the !s; that thing has annoyed me incredibly much every time I've seen the sign. <-- so what does the sign mean?
20:32:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's an English translation in the description there.
20:32:09 <fizzie> I assume that's where olsner got the pram from.
20:32:28 <fizzie> Oh, it doesn't translate the small print.
20:32:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, so what does the small print translate to
20:32:40 <olsner> but the text in the picture was not on a bus?
20:33:03 <Vorpal> olsner, uh? it looks like the sign is inside the bus?
20:33:18 <olsner> Vorpal: the description of the image had a translation btw
20:33:26 <Vorpal> olsner, not complete it appears
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20:33:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: "An example: A car may unexpectedly rush in front of the bus. In that case, _in order to avoid a collision_, it is necessary to brake suddenly."
20:33:59 <olsner> oh, it looked like a billboard by a road, but I guess the picture was taken through the bus window?
20:34:42 <fizzie> I think they added that to stop people from complaining so loudly when the bus sometimes does in fact make sudden changes of velocity.
20:35:13 <olsner> they should just add thicker armor to the buses so they don't have to stop
20:35:57 <fizzie> The sign also looks kinda badly kerned. (E.g. the gap between Ä and V in "YLLÄTTÄVISSÄ".)
20:41:19 <fizzie> A while ago I did my small part to annoy folks-with-children living in this building; they'd been keeping their PRAM at the bottom of the staircase, so I left an anonymous note quoting the law forbidding that, plus the fire department's statistics on how fast smoke from a burning PRAM fills a four-floor stairway (less than two minutes), how large fraction of deaths in fires are due to smoke ...
20:41:25 <fizzie> ... poisoning (two thirds) and how many such left-in-the-stairway PRAMS are vandalistically set aflame every year (about ten in the metropolitan area).
20:41:29 <fizzie> Haven't seen the PRAM since.
20:41:58 <fizzie> In retrospect, they may have misinterpreted the subtext as "this guy's going to set our PRAM on fire" as opposed to "oh, we have a friendly and safety-conscious neighbour".
20:42:34 <fizzie> It got results, and made things more difficult for other people, so I suppose it's a win-win in any case.
20:43:15 <fizzie> (I should've printed out http://www.pelastustoimi.fi/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/sppl07-0.jpg on the note too.)
20:44:33 <kmc> what is a PRAM and why must it be capitalized
20:44:49 <fizzie> kmc: 1. baby buggy, baby carriage, carriage, perambulator, pram, stroller, go-cart, pushchair, pusher -- (a small vehicle with four wheels in which a baby or child is pushed around)
20:44:56 <fizzie> (I keep saying that thing.)
20:45:07 <fizzie> Possibly it doesn't need to be capitalized.
20:45:25 <kmc> to what degree were your statistics completely made up
20:45:49 <elliott> fizzie: you should have zapped their PRAM
20:45:54 <fizzie> They came from the fire department's website. It doesn't cite sources.
20:46:33 <olsner> you should've just moved it to the garbage room, since it was in the stairway it must be garbage
20:46:45 <fizzie> But the first one, about the time taken for smoke to fill the stairway, they claim to be based on their own experiments.
20:46:48 <Vorpal> random note: SwiftKey is an awesome keyboard for a touch screen, almost as fast as typing on a real PC keyboard.
20:46:53 <fizzie> (I don't know if they count that in the last statistic.)
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20:49:38 <kmc> so the fire department recognizes prams left in stairways as a particular problem?
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20:51:19 <fizzie> In as much as they have a particular page about it, yes.
20:51:41 <fizzie> I suspect it's just that they're the thing most commonly left in stairways, and they burn quite well.
20:54:44 <fizzie> Disclaimer: I've been using "fire department" as a convenient shorthand, but strictly speaking the website that has the page is the "Rescue services in Finland" info-portal of the Department for Rescue Services of the Ministry of the Interior; while the organization that actually ran the smoke experiments was the Helsinki City Rescue Department.
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21:09:44 <fizzie> For any matter whatsoever; complete immunity.
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21:34:14 <atriq> Any idea why http://wehavenosociallifestuck.tumblr.com/post/35221679526 is working in Firefox but not Chromium, anyone?
21:38:39 <atriq> Does saying that help my situation at all?
21:39:26 <Lumpio-> Probably not, but it's a valid reaction to such a video
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22:01:13 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, but one of my friends made that, so I have to watch it!
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22:13:55 * Sgeo wonders how Conservapedia is handling the election results
22:14:43 <Sgeo> "Is this the end of RINO credibility at the top of the Republican Party? In voting for Democrats, Wisconsin and Ohio appear to reject the avoid-the-social-issues approach of Karl Rove and other liberal Republicans."
22:14:58 <Phantom_Hoover> "Some reasons why Mitt Romney lost.[3] And what this means for America's future. [4]
22:15:28 <Sgeo> That [3] link: http://www.westernjournalism.com/why-romney-lost/
22:15:30 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:15:40 <Sgeo> "He didnt want to talk about Obamas associations with Islamists and the Muslim Brotherhood. Romney never wanted to talk about Obamas sketchy past, his fictional birth story, and his possible ineligibility to serve as president."
22:16:34 <Sgeo> "Yes, the economy is bad, but there needed to be more. What about Obamas support for infanticide? What about his support for death panels?"
22:16:42 <atriq> Didn't Obama have more of a claim for eligibility for president than McCain?
22:17:10 <Sgeo> "The overly zealous foreign policy of the neoconservative movement is hurting the Republican brand. Americans were worried Romney might get us in another Mideast war." ... uh, wow. I guess not all right-wingers are the same
22:17:22 <Bike> are you referring to mccain being porn in panama, or...
22:17:50 <fizzie> McCain was in a porn movie filmed in Panama!?
22:18:04 <fizzie> That *is* quite shady.
22:18:06 <Bike> born*. being born in a military base is fine.
22:18:06 <atriq> He was porn in panama
22:18:49 <atriq> When he went to Panama, people got arrested for possessing John McCain of children
22:21:05 <Phantom_Hoover> we need to make 'john mccain' into the next euphemism for porn
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22:32:09 <kmc> the new santorum
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23:35:19 <tswett> In the sentence "I'll be happy if he eats right now", even though "to eat" is in the present tense, and despite the presence of the phrase "right now", the action referred to by the verb "to eat" is in the future.
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00:36:09 <Arc_Koen> well, things are going pretty well here
00:37:18 <Arc_Koen> I've got a driving license, and I just tonight shared a beer with a friend with whom things have been... rather cold... for the past several months
00:39:36 <Arc_Koen> so it's a pretty good week overall
00:41:25 <Arc_Koen> the only downside is my back aches a lot since sunday
00:43:10 <Arc_Koen> I'm in the middle of a first-aid course that lasts over three week-ends and we started the stretcher / carrying / whatever you call that / thing where you carry a victim, sunday
00:44:14 <Arc_Koen> and half-way through it I realized the way I stood was not as perfect as I believed and well my back is doing a very good job at reminding me of that
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00:44:47 <Arc_Koen> but the only thing you have to remember out of all that is that I'm very happy right now and feel the need to share
00:45:12 <Arc_Koen> even though right now it does feel like I'm talking to myself
00:46:30 <Arc_Koen> they have this thing in france, one day every year they ask everybody to shut down everything
00:46:52 <Arc_Koen> (well I'm pretty sure no one ever shuts down the refrigerator on that occasion)
00:47:02 <Arc_Koen> at a given time, usually between 7pm and 8pm
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00:47:59 <Arc_Koen> hoping to show a huge decrease of power decrease over the country
00:48:33 <Arc_Koen> and at 8pm when all those who followed the movement try getting everything on again
00:50:56 <kmc> http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/07/14/because-of-constitution-error-north-dakota-is-not-a-state-and-never-has-been/
01:15:42 <ais523> anyway, I figured out what was up with cs.bham.ac.uk
01:15:49 <ais523> a substation explosion nearby took out all the power to the entire area
01:16:00 <ais523> and the disaster response people decided it was inessential and so didn't hook it up to a generator
01:21:40 <kmc> http://www.asofterworld.com/index.php?id=890
01:30:35 <kmc> shachaf: did you know that the mapping from usernames to full name at MIT is world readable via DNS?
01:30:38 <kmc> dig -t txt gjs.passwd.ns.athena.mit.edu
01:30:40 <kmc> you can also see what shell people use
01:32:09 <elliott> aww, kmc.passwd.ns.athena.mit.edu doesn't work
01:34:27 <Arc_Koen> coppro: can you please explain what's wrong with stargate at the end of season 8?
01:34:43 <Arc_Koen> the two time-travel episodes didn't make any sense to me
01:34:57 <Arc_Koen> it's like nothing happened at all
01:35:17 <Arc_Koen> and the first episode of season 9 is ridiculous
01:35:20 <Sgeo_> Arc_Koen, at that point, the plot of the first 8 seasons is finished, because the series was expected to be cancelled.
01:35:33 <Sgeo_> So, completely new plot.
01:35:50 <coppro> Arc_Koen: It's not wrong
01:35:52 <Arc_Koen> so they decided to end the plot three episodes before the end of the season?
01:36:12 <coppro> Arc_Koen: So at the end of nearly every season, they thought SG-1 would be cancelled
01:36:23 <coppro> I think seasons 1, 9, and maybe 5 are exceptions
01:36:33 <coppro> In 7, the renewal didn't come until very very late
01:36:39 <coppro> so Lost City was written to be the series finale
01:36:45 <kmc> elliott: my athena username isn't kmc
01:36:47 <kmc> it's taken or some shit
01:36:55 <kmc> i don't really like 'kmc' either
01:36:55 <coppro> Season 8 was kind of mopping up and grasping at any unresolved plotlines
01:37:03 <kmc> i try to go by 'keegan' but i'm usually not able to
01:37:06 <Arc_Koen> coppro: they're trapped in a room with the ceiling moving down and the riddle they have to solve is to order a sequence of 9 symbols which happen to be 9 digits mirrored
01:37:31 <coppro> By Season 9, they decided they needed to do a reboot, hence the episode you're watching
01:37:33 <kmc> it is short
01:38:03 <coppro> The plot of seasons 9 and 10 is generally agreed to be not as good as the plot that was built up over the first 7
01:39:00 <Arc_Koen> also, they start the whole thing as "daniel jackson, teal'c, carter are no longer part of the team"... but the opening sequence lists them as the main characters
01:39:21 <Arc_Koen> which is a stupid way of spoiling things, in my opinion
01:40:06 <coppro> also, in seasons 9 & 10, landry < hammond and mitchell <<<<< o'neill
01:40:32 <Arc_Koen> I do like the kind of "silent humour" carried away in the episode, though
01:41:01 <Arc_Koen> I mean, most humorous series seem to feel the need to "oeverexplain" every joke
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01:41:32 <Arc_Koen> they don't do that in stargate (at least most of the time) and mitchell did respect that
01:41:34 <madbr> how fast at sorting are 8bit and 16bit processors?
01:42:05 <Arc_Koen> and season 8 really felt like it was the end
01:42:30 <Arc_Koen> "we're missing a fourth team member... uh, let's stall things for one season before getting a new character"
01:44:37 <Arc_Koen> btw, you mentioned I should watch atlantis at the same time as season 9,
01:44:40 <Sgeo_> Built by ancients so long ago
01:44:46 <Sgeo_> Arc_Koen, wrong season.
01:45:02 <madbr> if you can do fast sorts you can do a graphic architecture that's really simple but can do tons of moving sprites etc
01:45:05 <Sgeo_> Well, I guess it overlaps, but not "starting at season 9"
01:45:23 <Arc_Koen> well, if you have any more precise advises they are very welcome
01:45:31 <coppro> Arc_Koen: The first three seasons of Atlantis and the last three episodes of Atlantis overlap
01:45:36 <Sgeo_> I think the SG-1/SGA overlap starts at the beginning of season 8? I'm not sure
01:45:54 <Sgeo_> coppro, uh... last three episodes of Atlantis? Wat?
01:46:00 <Sgeo_> Last three seasons of SG-1?
01:46:01 <coppro> *last three seasons of SG-1
01:46:13 <coppro> For instance, the last epsiode of Season 8 where they want to get a ZPM makes much more sense if you watch Atlantis
01:46:25 <coppro> but certainly more sense
01:46:36 <coppro> so I would recommend watching them concurrently, even to alternate episodes
01:46:38 <Sgeo_> I should rewatch SG-1 and SGA with that overlap
01:46:42 <Arc_Koen> well, I was assuming they'd need to find atlantis before the SGA would make sense
01:46:45 <Sgeo_> I finished SG-1 before watching SGA
01:46:51 <coppro> Arc_Koen: They find it in the premiere for Atlantis
01:47:18 <Arc_Koen> sooo you're saying at the beginning of season 9 they have already found it?
01:47:36 <coppro> no it was definitely a relevant plot point in Mobius
01:47:47 <Arc_Koen> I thought they only had the arctantica outpost
01:47:54 <Sgeo_> I'm pretty sure at beginning of some season Daniel wants to go to Atlantis, and treats it as a regular but lengthy trip
01:48:29 <Arc_Koen> oh, yes he did mention having to get aboard the daedalus
01:48:37 <Arc_Koen> though never said where it was heading
01:48:47 <Arc_Koen> or rather, not at a time where I was listening
01:48:58 <coppro> There's an SG-1 episode late in Season 9 that takes place a fair bit on Atlantis
01:49:14 <Arc_Koen> in fact it took me a certain time to make the connection with the "new ship" they had described previously
01:49:53 <Arc_Koen> so, I should watch the first season of SGA before I continue with season 9?
01:50:15 <coppro> Pegasus Project in particular will make a lot less sense without it
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02:00:34 <shachaf> I don't know many MIT people, though.
02:02:30 <shachaf> kmc: You can also finger gjs@mit.edu
02:02:44 <shachaf> I guess that won't tell you their shell.
02:36:47 <kmc> what the fuck lenovo
02:36:49 <kmc> why won't you take my money
02:37:44 <shachaf> They'd be happy take your money and give you an unsatisfactory product.
02:37:56 <shachaf> Or they'd be happy to take a lot of your money in AUD form.
02:38:05 <kmc> even then they won't ship it to USA
02:46:12 <kmc> fuck lenovo
02:46:17 <kmc> i wish there were any other credible option
02:54:25 <kmc> i think the pointing stick is a must-have feature for me
02:54:56 <kmc> though if i didn't have one, maybe i would get better at avoiding the mouse and that would be good
02:56:11 <kmc> not a lot of ultrabooks have it
02:58:04 <kmc> the Latitude 6430u does but it weighs almost a pound more than the X1c
03:00:08 <kmc> screen sucks too
03:00:16 <kmc> what is this 1366 x 768 bullshit
03:03:10 <shachaf> You can get a $400 10" tablet with a 2560×1600 screen these days.
03:03:17 <shachaf> What's happening to laptops?
03:05:27 <kmc> apple has the retina display
03:05:33 <kmc> PC manufacturers will copy it within 1-3 years
03:05:38 <kmc> that's how the industry works
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05:54:38 <Sgeo> Conservapedia is blaming early voting.
05:54:39 <Sgeo> http://conservapedia.com/Main_Page
05:55:14 <Bike> glad to have contributed to the demise of conservagod, then!
05:56:27 <Sgeo> Seems to be something about voter intimidation (huh?) and security of the early ballots
05:56:32 <Sgeo> http://conservapedia.com/Early_voting
05:57:09 <Sgeo> Conservapedia is also linking to http://www.wnd.com/2012/08/akin-not-far-off-base-in-rape-comment/
05:57:34 <Bike> not even clicking something with that url
05:59:13 <kmc> stop trolling by proxyp
05:59:15 <kmc> proxy even
06:02:22 <kmc> http://www.bing.com/elections/news?q=elections+2012+leans_center&form=bngeex&filter=leans_center
06:02:26 <kmc> see that slider at the top?
06:02:33 <kmc> bing literally has a button for "show me only opinions i will agree with"
06:02:53 <kmc> i mean that's what the Internet is all about, but rarely is it so explicit
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06:35:40 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/12s9wx/puerto_rico_has_voted_to_join_the_union_it_is_to/
06:36:27 <kmc> "It is to be the 51st state" uh, that's a bit of an overstatement
06:36:38 <kmc> puerto rico has passed a non-binding referendum saying that they would like to be a state
06:36:46 <kmc> now it is up to the federal government to do something about that, or not
06:41:14 <coppro> kmc: More like, it's up to the Puerto Rican government to put together a formal application
06:41:20 <coppro> and to Congress to debate endlessly about taxes
06:42:13 <kmc> i guess it would be too much to expect reddit to have a non-sensationalistic approach to a political story
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06:59:52 <pikhq_> It does *kinda* make sense though: Puerto Rico's unwillingness in the past has been the primary barrier to their statehood.
07:00:35 <kmc> is that just because the other barriers haven't been tested yet, thuogh?
07:00:41 <kmc> i don't really know either way
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07:20:59 * Sgeo isn't entirely sure where Puerto Rico is
07:21:14 <Sgeo> As far as geography is concerned, I'm a stereotypical American.
07:21:23 <kmc> google maps is your guide
07:21:46 <kmc> it is east of cuba, haiti, and dominican republic
07:21:53 <Sgeo> Was going to check Wikipedia but Google Maps is good too
07:22:42 <Sgeo> Hmm. Reminds me more of Alaska than Hawaii, since there are other intervening countries between the US mainland and it.
07:23:10 <Bike> gotta be careful of the threat of invasion from haiti.
07:27:05 <Sgeo> If Puerto Rico wanted independence instead, would that be possible?
07:27:40 <Sgeo> My understanding is if they go state, they can't go back. I think there was some war about it
07:27:51 <Bike> it's not like territories haven't become independent before.
07:27:58 <pikhq_> That war was a clusterfuck.
07:28:07 <coppro> Sgeo: They can't go back without permission
07:28:39 <coppro> If a state really wanted to secede and it wasn't over something stupid, they could try to rustle support for an amendment to allow secession
07:28:55 <coppro> (they could try that if it was over something stupid too; it would just be less likely to work)
07:29:22 <pikhq_> In principle a bunch of states could boot one out.
07:29:23 <fizzie> "Once you go tentacle, you stay in the pentacle", like they say.
07:29:36 <pikhq_> We could just decide to make a new amendment: "Texas is not a state."
07:29:45 <pikhq_> And approve it via convention.
07:29:45 <kmc> yes, Phillipines used to be a US territory
07:30:28 <Sgeo> ...I almost mentally mixed up the Phillipines and Paraguay
07:30:44 <kmc> good for you
07:31:03 <Bike> of course, the philippines had previously had a few wars about becoming independent, which I don't think is true of puerto rico
07:32:42 <pikhq_> Heck, in theory the entire US could be disbanded that way.
07:32:52 <pikhq_> Without Congress even being involved.
07:36:36 <kmc> amend the constitution to remove every word
07:36:56 <kmc> and replace it with a picture of a duck
07:37:24 <kmc> would the laws passed by Congress continue to have force even if the constitution were nullified?
07:37:50 <kmc> i guess there is no framework for answering that question
07:37:57 <kmc> except Common Law™
07:38:17 <pikhq_> Congress is the government of DC.
07:39:07 <Sgeo> Well, if we assume that laws must get their authority from the Constitution, where does the Constitution get its authority from? IIRC, the Constitution wasn't validly transitioned to under the Articles of Confederation
07:39:21 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Consent of the governed.
07:40:49 <kmc> and the Articles of Confederation were never approved by the King!
07:41:38 <kmc> but yeah, blah blah consent of the governed blah handwave common law social contract mumble mumble we used our guns to shoot the other guys you didn't like and now we say what goes
07:42:32 <kmc> it's funny how similar organized crime and government are
07:43:15 <kmc> i mean, i'm a liberal, i like taxation and government services, but I still agree with the libertarian premise that at a basic level, taxation is theft
07:43:20 <kmc> i would say that it's the lesser of two evils
07:43:24 <Sgeo> Hmm, wondering how to make a nomic that does that sort of thing, that the rules can be ignored if there's a war or people ... vaguely agree
07:43:30 <kmc> people suck and deserve to have some of their stuff stolen from time to time for the greater good
07:45:03 <pikhq_> kmc: So, in short, you're a utilitarian who is honest about what is actually going on. :)
07:45:11 <kmc> i flatter myself by thinking so, yes
07:46:13 <kmc> gotta sleep now, ttyl all
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07:50:07 <coppro> pikhq_: Congress still has to call the convention
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07:50:39 <coppro> kmc, pikhq_: your government is scary can you make it stop
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16:36:33 <Arc_Koen> so, ancient egyptians don't speak english
16:36:51 <Arc_Koen> but other species from other galaxies do
16:37:20 <Arc_Koen> I'm starting to think this Babel episode on earth really happened :)
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17:18:51 <Vorpal> wow, modern GPUs really don't like 16-bit colour modes...
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17:21:06 <elliott> my system's rogue package just got updated
17:21:35 <Vorpal> oh you mean like not in the upstream distro?
17:21:45 <Vorpal> so not that meaning of rogue
17:21:51 <elliott> well, yes that meaning of rogue
17:22:03 <elliott> apparently it was just moved from the AUR into the official repositories
17:22:15 <Vorpal> elliott, you use arch still?
17:22:55 <Vorpal> elliott, since I basically switched away from arch you might be interested in picking up maintainership of c-intercal and tup-git on AUR
17:23:29 <Vorpal> I disowned those packages, I don't see myself using arch again any time soon
17:23:35 <atriq> elliott, your existence is driving me insane
17:23:42 <elliott> Vorpal: why did you switch away from arch anyway
17:23:53 <atriq> I see someone vaguely my age I don't recognize and think "That might be elliott"
17:24:13 <elliott> atriq: you probably want to be looking for someone who looks younger than you
17:26:27 <Vorpal> elliott, I no longer have the time to spend on maintaining it. Sure it isn't as bad as Gentoo, but compared to Debian it is still a lot of work. So I went for Debian
17:26:48 <elliott> clear solution is linux from scratch
17:27:10 <Vorpal> one thing I do miss is PKGBUILD though, they are a hell of a lot simpler to figure out than debian's package building system.
17:27:13 <elliott> i actually find arch fairly low-maintanence personally... the only time i had to spend more effort than -Syu recently was the systemd switch
17:27:19 <elliott> yes dpkg is sort of a mess
17:27:21 <Vorpal> elliott, also at the time I switched we *still* didn't have -dbg packages on arch
17:27:30 <Vorpal> have they fixed that yet?
17:27:56 <elliott> there are no separate debug packages
17:28:00 <elliott> maybe they turned debugging on in the real packages idk
17:28:18 <Vorpal> Also multilib. On arch that was a joke
17:28:34 <elliott> i've had no problems with arch's multilib repo
17:28:54 <elliott> it's complete enough for DF at least (in fact DF itself is in the multilib repo)
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17:29:39 <Vorpal> elliott, sure but try to compile anything non-trivial with -m32
17:30:11 <elliott> what is the problem? I have gcc-multilib installed and plenty of lib32-* packages
17:30:48 <Vorpal> Maybe they improved that in the last few months then
17:30:52 <FreeFull> elliott: There will always will be something with a -m32 missing or something that will try to use 64-bit stuff anyway
17:31:18 <elliott> FreeFull: that sounds like a multilib problem in general
17:31:22 <Vorpal> iirc I had problems finding a 32-bit unixodbc package the last time or something like that
17:31:23 <elliott> rather than anything to do with arch
17:31:25 <FreeFull> Just using gcc built with an x86 32-bit target is easier
17:31:47 <elliott> anyway i don't like -m32 either but whatever
17:32:30 <fizzie> Debian's multilib transition was really quite messy, especially back when tools like Aptitude couldn't really show architectures; you ended up with a lot of weirdly duplicate-looking packages.
17:32:49 <fizzie> These days at least Aptitude seems to be reasonably good at tagging ":i386" to names.
17:37:08 <elliott> fizzie: If only they used Kitten's solution.
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17:56:30 <Vorpal> elliott, and what is that solution?
17:58:51 <elliott> Vorpal: have everything in triple-specific roots, i.e. on a 64-bit system your 32-bit stuff would be in /i686-linux-gnu/lib/..., /i686-linux-gnu/bin/..., and it'd compile it with /x86_64-linux-gnu/bin/gcc-i-forget-how-gcc-cross-compilers-are-named-but-this-one-is-for-i686
17:58:58 <elliott> Vorpal: the twist being you can also install architectures you can't even run
17:59:08 <elliott> like you could have /armel-linux-gnu/ on an x86-64 system
17:59:29 <elliott> the double twist is: you could tell the package manager to use qemu-system-armel to run armel-linux-gnu binaries, just like it knows to use linux32 to run i686-linux-gnu binaries
17:59:40 <elliott> anyway there wouldn't be any specific multilib packages
17:59:43 <kmc> called lenovo, they say there is no launch date set for the X1 Carbon i7 8GB in the US
17:59:54 <elliott> you'd just do $ pkg install --arch=i686-linux-gnu libwhatever
18:00:03 <elliott> and something like dwarffortress would only be available for i686-linux-gnu
18:00:03 <kmc> this is a lot of trouble to go through for 1MB of cache
18:00:31 <kmc> but, cache rules everything around me
18:01:38 <Vorpal> elliott, hm interesting approach
18:02:19 <Vorpal> elliott, how do you deal with stuff doing #!/bin/sh and such? Symlink?
18:04:22 <fizzie> There aren't terribly many multilib-specific packages on Debian; it just installs i386 versions of regular packages. The old horrible "ia32-libs" megapackage is nowadays just a metapackage that depends on ia32-libs-multiarch, which is only available on the i386 arch and so gets installed, and which depends on the libraries that the old ia32-libs used to contain.
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18:04:27 <fizzie> Admittedly the whole thing is still slightly gnarly; but at least you can install almost anything from Debian-i386 without problems. Or so I believe.
18:04:59 <kmc> cross-architecture chroots work really well actually
18:05:04 <kmc> schroot can set them up automatically
18:05:06 <fizzie> (Instead of having to file a bug about "there's no ia32 version of libstrumpbyxor, I can't run my favourite software".)
18:05:14 <elliott> Vorpal: yes, /bin would be a symlink to /x86_64-linux-gnu/bin or such. actually you could have a "customised" /bin where it symlinks individual executables but e.g. if you tell it you want the ARM version of xchat as your /bin/xchat (for some reason??), it'd install a shell script that does "qemu-system-blah /armel-blah-blah/blah/xchat "$@""
18:05:32 <elliott> Vorpal: or actually you could probably just symlink directly to the armel binary and use the linux kernel's misc executables thing to have it run them with qemu
18:05:36 <kmc> and it uses binfmt_misc
18:05:47 <kmc> so that you can run an ARM executable on x86 transparently
18:05:50 <kmc> pretty sexy
18:05:52 <fizzie> binfmt_misc is *really scary*.
18:05:57 <kmc> it's the best
18:05:57 <elliott> right, binfmt_misc is what i meant
18:06:04 <elliott> fizzie: right, Debian does it righter than most other people
18:06:07 <fizzie> I accidentally ran an ARM executable, and didn't even notice until after.
18:06:20 <kmc> sudo apt-get install ubuntu-dev-tools qemu-user-static; mk-sbuild --arch=armel precise; sudo schroot -c precise-armel-source
18:06:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, "libstrumpbyxor"? hah
18:06:58 <kmc> libschtroumpf
18:07:33 <elliott> Vorpal: actually I think the last time I was thinking about Kitten this ended up merging with Nix
18:07:39 <elliott> in which case you wouldn't need the triple prefixes at all
18:09:38 <elliott> basically my point is that i686 shouldn't be treated specially for x86-64
18:09:41 <Vorpal> elliott, btw I have been thinking about /etc a bit. While tools like etckeeper allows version control of it, there is an issue. It doesn't keep track of the point of diverging.
18:09:45 <elliott> you can just do it as part of a general "installing other architecture binaries"
18:09:48 <Vorpal> which means less automated merging
18:10:03 <Vorpal> a three way merge would be perfect for changed config files
18:10:32 <Vorpal> elliott, you should support that in Kitten in some way
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18:11:25 <elliott> Vorpal: well with nix you never actually change /etc, so maybe i could take advantage of that somehow
18:11:31 <elliott> i don't think i'll actually be writing kitten any time soon though :P
18:11:35 <Vorpal> well okay, that works too
18:11:43 <elliott> packaging is just way too much work
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19:37:07 <kmc> PhantomJS (headless scriptable webkit browser) does some crazy things with closures
19:38:14 <kmc> your script runs in its own environment, but you can pass a closure to .evaluate() and it will use globals from the loaded web page instead
19:39:23 <Gregor> Well that's horrifying.
19:40:07 <kmc> i think you can use lexical locals, yes
19:40:13 <kmc> it might even look in your environment first for globals
19:40:24 <kmc> it's definitely weird, but i'm not sure it's worse than the alternatives
19:40:27 <kmc> which would be, what, string eval?
19:40:49 <kmc> in Kernel you can play these tricks of course
19:40:56 <kmc> because environments are first-class and 'eval' takes an explicit environment
19:47:19 <kmc> no you can't use lexical locals :/
19:48:16 <kmc> but you can explicitly pass a dictionary of stuff
19:51:31 <Vorpal> hm, new humble bundle out
19:59:10 <Sgeo> In Clojure you can fake an eval that takes a concrete lexical environment
19:59:30 <Sgeo> And write a macro that obtains the lexical environment where it's expanded
20:18:14 <impomatic> What's the word that means censoring with asterisks? E.g. Brainf***?
20:18:44 <elliott> I don't think it has a special name
20:20:49 <olsner> it ought to be called something offensive
20:21:13 <atriq> ****ing censorship
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20:23:51 <impomatic> I seem to remember there's a name, but I can only find grawlix which isn't for a specific swear word...
20:23:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:24:55 <Sgeo> Bowlderization?
20:25:37 <Sgeo> Bowdlerization? (Although I think that's a specific form of... oh, you're saying specifically with *)
20:27:17 <olsner> oh, "Named after Thomas Bowdler (1754-1825), who first did it on The Bible and William Shakespeare's plays"
20:27:32 <impomatic> Thanks. That's the one I was thinking of! It's not as specific as I thought though...
20:27:52 <Jafet> 'Craig Cockburn reported that he was unable to use his surname (pronounced "Coburn") with Hotmail. Separately he had problems with his workplace email due to the string "cialis" within his job title of "software specialist".'
20:28:32 <FreeFull> This is the problem with profanity and dump spam filters
20:28:59 <olsner> yes, if everyone just stopped being so damn profane
20:29:36 -!- augur has joined.
20:29:38 <olsner> (which may or may not be a valid way to use the word 'profane')
20:30:48 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:43:47 <fizzie> There's a channel I know where people used to do a long _o/ \o_ kind of dance during the minute 13:37 quite often.
20:45:07 <olsner> hehe "Before Thomas Bowdler got a reputation one would have refered to this trope as the castration of stories."
20:46:00 <myndzi> need moar scripts loaded
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20:49:21 <myndzi> bug in a 10 year old script
20:50:43 <myndzi> new version of mirc appears to have broken my 177kb script file
20:51:24 <myndzi> well at least that far down they work
20:52:30 <myndzi> new computers suck man
20:52:44 <myndzi> i haven't wanted to load my old copy of mirc because the paths have changed
20:52:48 <myndzi> and it will auto-remove like half my scripts
20:53:00 <myndzi> but i have all these random misc. files in the folder too haha
20:53:11 <myndzi> such as the scrabble wordlist that the hangman script uses ;)
20:53:38 <myndzi> at least my maze lineart properly lines up though!
20:54:54 <myndzi> ahh, apparently the proper unicode support broke the regex which was using pseudo-tf
20:55:04 <elliott> this script sounds exciting
20:55:22 <myndzi> it's where i write random shit that i don't care about
20:55:33 <elliott> how could you not care about \o/
20:55:34 <myndzi> you'll lol at the \o/ guy event definition
20:55:37 <myndzi> on $*:text:m/(?<!\w)((?<!\\m\/.\\m\/.|\\m\/.\\m\/)\\m\/.\\m\/(?!.?\\m\/.\\m\/)|[-¯\\\/|_\<]oÂ?[-¯\\\/|_\>]|([.·oº])_Â?(?!\2)[.·oº]|ಠ‿ರೃ)(?!\w)/gS:#:{
20:55:50 <myndzi> things that start out simple, y'know?
20:56:05 <Bike> is that... a regex?
20:56:14 <fizzie> I vaguely recall I had a script in a mIRC.
20:56:15 <Bike> or some kind of dance?
20:56:25 <fizzie> I also ran Xircon 1.0b4, it had a Tcl script engine.
20:56:26 <myndzi> i just have to figure out why it's failing
20:56:33 <elliott> the real question is why wouldn't it fail
20:56:35 <elliott> doesn't it deserve to fail
20:56:36 <fizzie> Then it never got past that beta 4.
20:56:36 <Bike> maybe you should figure out how it worked
20:56:46 <nooodl_> mircscript is like perl, but... someone finish this simile
20:57:06 <nooodl_> i guess it's perl meets the bad parts of javascript maybe. yeah it's unique
20:57:07 <myndzi> but i know it intimately well and the client itself is excellent
20:57:20 <myndzi> of course, now i would rather write in javascript or something
20:57:32 <myndzi> i totally forgot there was a dude with a cane
20:58:02 <nooodl_> dude. the regex. the REGEX...
20:58:17 <myndzi> oh i've written worse abominations
20:58:22 <myndzi> that one's just escaped all to hell because of the \'s
20:58:39 <nooodl_> i can't tell what's going on with the \\m's
20:59:03 <myndzi> i'm pretty sure it's checking spacing
20:59:06 <myndzi> and that there's two of them
20:59:44 <myndzi> okay, the tilded A followed by a comma
21:00:17 <myndzi> must have been a bad paste
21:00:38 <myndzi> i wonder what it was supposed to be
21:01:18 <elliott> sounds like encoding issues
21:01:29 <myndzi> comma doesn't begin with 10
21:01:45 <myndzi> this script ran under mirc 6.35
21:01:52 <myndzi> 7.0 has more proper unicode support
21:02:01 <myndzi> before, i had to insert the individual ascii characters
21:02:21 <elliott> the individual octets, you mean
21:02:49 <myndzi> though, only someone in here would make that distinction i bet haha
21:03:24 <fizzie> Oh, I nitpick every time someone says "high ASCII characters", and I'm not someone in here. Er...
21:03:39 <myndzi> i could nitpick that asci is nothing
21:03:49 <elliott> technically it's ASCII not ascii
21:03:54 <kmc> i wish people would stop being so pedantic about character encodings, if they would just learn to speak english then it's all very easy
21:04:56 <Jafet> That joke is getting a bit clichéd.
21:05:22 <myndzi> regex is actually pretty simple
21:05:35 <myndzi> but i didn't know it as well as i do now then
21:05:43 <myndzi> it is checking spacing
21:05:50 <myndzi> that is, two \m/ \m/ sets can't be next to each other
21:06:17 <myndzi> then it's the arm variants, head variants, or the (o_º) face variants
21:06:23 <myndzi> which i made require a silly arm thing
21:06:43 <kmc> utf-8 ueber alles
21:06:58 <olsner> myndzi: ASCI could be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerated_Strategic_Computing_Initiative
21:07:39 <myndzi> i bet you guys never saw ¯\(._º)/¯
21:07:44 <myndzi> i don't even know if i got it right
21:07:47 <myndzi> that was for another channel
21:08:11 <myndzi> and appears to be part of the source of the problem :) i'm not sure what the optional thing after the mouth was
21:09:55 <myndzi> 1110000010110010101000001110001010000010101100101111111110000010110010101100001110000010110011110010010
21:10:47 <myndzi> the binary representation isn't divisible by 8
21:11:02 <nooodl_> > length "1110000010110010101000001110001010000010101100101111111110000010110010101100001110000010110011110010010"
21:11:18 <myndzi> nother broken script i assume
21:11:22 <myndzi> i can't rely on anything :(
21:11:27 <myndzi> is there a thing to decode utf-8?
21:11:34 <myndzi> or rather, double-encoded utf-8 haha
21:11:49 <FreeFull> What do you want as binary? ¯\(._º)/¯ ?
21:12:13 <myndzi> i was going to deconstruct the utf-8 manually
21:12:15 <nooodl_> probably; most utf-8-supporting languages have a function for that kind of thing
21:12:31 <myndzi> i'll work it out somehow :)
21:12:36 <FreeFull> It's c3a0c2b2c2a0c3a2e282acc2bfc3a0c2b2c2b0c3a0c2b3c692 in hex
21:12:40 <myndzi> but apparently my conversion tools are borked
21:12:59 <myndzi> that's the reddit face
21:13:18 <fungot> 98 108 195 164 114 112
21:13:26 <fizzie> That gives raw bytes as decimal.
21:13:37 <fizzie> Maybe there should be a hex version, though.
21:13:38 <myndzi> okay, almost fixed maybe!
21:13:46 <fungot> >>,[[-<+2>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<2[>+6[<+8>-]<-.[-]<]+32.[-]>>,]
21:13:49 <myndzi> i have lots of cool random scripts for that shit hehe
21:14:10 <FreeFull> 11000011101000001100001010110010110000101010000011000011101000101110001010000010101011001100001010111111110000111010000011000010101100101100001010110000110000111010000011000010101100111100011010010010
21:14:15 <FreeFull> Probably some 0s missing at the beginning
21:14:39 <FreeFull> > length "11000011101000001100001010110010110000101010000011000011101000101110001010000010101011001100001010111111110000111010000011000010101100101100001010110000110000111010000011000010101100111100011010010010"
21:15:01 <myndzi> yeah, utf-8 always has high bit set
21:15:11 <myndzi> but i got it, it's the reddit face like i said :)
21:15:18 <myndzi> i searched google and found some broken pages that gave me context
21:15:24 <fizzie> UTF-8 doesn't have the high bit set for codepoints less than 128.
21:15:43 <myndzi> i'm going to ignore that as being ignorant of context
21:16:01 <fizzie> "a" is just as UTF-8 as "ä".
21:16:16 <myndzi> it's fun that there's a place where people can actually talk about utf-8 encodings and stuff
21:16:22 <myndzi> i mean, most people would be like ut-what?
21:16:39 <myndzi> but here not only do people know the details almost as a matter of course, they know them well enough to make pedantic corrections :P
21:16:51 <Bike> i'm sure there are plenty of places that would berate you for not using utf-ebcdic instead, too
21:16:54 <myndzi> i'll just write a new script
21:17:04 <myndzi> maybe i can get away with a new regex
21:20:18 <myndzi> did character classes just stop working?
21:21:14 <myndzi> but add anything else in and it fails >:(
21:21:41 <myndzi> i tried removing the escapes to test but i seem to have needed one ;)
21:21:57 <myndzi> i overescaped the rest
21:23:40 <FreeFull> myndzi: sed -e 's/\(.\{8\}\)/\1 /g'
21:23:46 <FreeFull> Will split stuff into eights for you
21:23:59 <myndzi> i'm well past that point now :P
21:24:06 <myndzi> i need to find my rng script
21:24:14 <myndzi> yes, i implemented like 8 rngs in mirc :\
21:26:51 <myndzi> z:\f\c\mirc\download, of course!
21:27:09 <myndzi> not the unified one but it has the one i want
21:27:37 <myndzi> apparently somewhere along the line i gave it a vag too
21:27:43 <myndzi> my first test got me /^\
21:32:25 <fizzie> How about that one thing, what was it, \m/ \m/ or such?
21:33:38 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
21:33:38 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
21:33:38 <myndzi> /´\/| |\ | /| /| /< | /´\ |\ >\
21:34:35 <atriq> myndzi, the seventh guy along looks like he's been bisected at the shoulders
21:34:43 <fizzie> Why are those last bodies all desynched.
21:34:47 <myndzi> yeah, looks like things are out of alignment
21:35:02 <myndzi> maybe a non breaking space got converted to a space
21:35:19 <myndzi> spaces are.. not fun in mirc
21:36:46 <impomatic> I'm looking for these books if anyone has a copy to sell - Solosky "FORTH: Elements of Programming Style", Wesseling "Forth: Implementation and Application", Ting "Inside F83", Koopman "Forth Floating Point", Pelc "Book of FORTH assemblers"
21:37:14 <atriq> impomatic, I've got A Book on C, with annotations by my dad
21:37:39 <fizzie> atriq: Do the annotations say "Bogus!" and such things?
21:37:44 <nooodl_> well, they're clearly looking for books on FORTH specifically
21:37:53 <impomatic> atriq: I think I've got that one already...
21:38:19 <atriq> The annotations have mysteriously disappeared!
21:38:40 <impomatic> atriq: is your dad Kernighan? If so I'll give you a couple of quid for the book.
21:38:51 <atriq> My dad is not Kernighan
21:38:58 <atriq> For then I would not be me
21:39:04 <atriq> Instead, I would be..
21:39:33 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
21:39:34 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | | | `\o/´ | | |
21:39:34 <myndzi> /< |\ |\ | |\ /< /^\ | /< /´\/<
21:40:06 <fizzie> The second set of three guys have their |s under the os now, but the third manages to be still misaligny.
21:40:13 <myndzi> one too far to the right and not enough around the rocker guy
21:40:19 <fizzie> Oh, the whole thing was just moved by one.
21:40:33 * myndzi takes it to another channel
21:40:47 <myndzi> ah, there's a space at the start of the line
21:41:03 <kmc> i love how it's always, like, version 5 of a programming language before they think to add map and filter
21:41:17 <kmc> it would be great if people designing new programming languages knew something about existing ones
21:41:39 <Bike> that sounds hard
21:54:11 <myndzi> oh geez i just typed console.log in mirc script
21:55:17 <Vorpal> <kmc> i love how it's always, like, version 5 of a programming language before they think to add map and filter <-- for haskell too? ;P
21:55:22 <myndzi> it's utf-8 width compensation
21:55:37 <myndzi> since mirc didn't use true unicode, $len(something) could be 1-4
21:55:41 <myndzi> so i had to manually fix it
21:55:50 <myndzi> but now it works correctly
21:59:13 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:00:00 <myndzi> okay, screw this nonsense
22:00:10 * myndzi consigns v1 to the trash
22:06:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:11:06 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: http://corewar.co.uk).
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22:22:09 <kmc> dig -t txt root.passwd.ns.athena.mit.edu
22:26:46 <kmc> she sells c shells
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22:34:00 <fizzie> "Can you see-ee any clearer from a glass shore?"
22:36:44 <Phantom_Hoover> wow, reddit now has a dedicated button below each and every comment to "give gold"
22:36:47 <shachaf> I'm not talking to you anymore, root.
22:37:13 <kmc> clearly they are hoping for some golden showers
22:37:18 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, was... that an Against A Dark Background reference?
22:39:18 <fizzie> Though when I read it, I did wonder if it was a something reference; it does not appear to be so, at least very directly.
22:39:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought nobody else had read Banks' non-Culture novels!
22:40:15 <fizzie> It's one of the "M." ones, still.
22:40:59 <Phantom_Hoover> (Did I mention that I got the inspiration for Mt Hoover from that book?)
22:41:48 <fizzie> I think I didn't quite get through Feersum Endjinn though; I remember starting, but not finishing (or Finnishing).
22:42:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:42:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i like how in retrospect mt hoover was rather tiny and unimpressive
22:43:29 <fizzie> elliott: That's what SHE said.
22:43:38 <Phantom_Hoover> it had that awesome biome discontinuity anyway, shut up
22:43:59 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: okay the discontinuity was cool
22:44:33 <fizzie> Also I think I did in fact finish The Algebraist.
22:44:42 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:45:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Feersum Endjinn would be the best if it wasn't for those goddamn dyslexic chapters.
22:46:03 <fizzie> Yes, I think those might've been the reason I gave it up.
22:47:11 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not even like you can skip them, they describe some of the coolest parts of the book.
22:54:24 <Vorpal> So I got the newest humble bundle, since some of those games would be nice to have on Android. A warning though, Waking Mars does not work on Android if it is not allowed to call home with user metrics (like if it is blocked by a firewall or adblocker software modifying the hosts file). It crashes when it fails to connect.
22:54:25 <myndzi> So I got the newest humble bundle, since some of those games would be nice to have on Android. A warning though, Waking Mars does not work on Android if it is not allowed to call home with user metrics (like if it is blocked by a firewall or adblocker software modifying the hosts file). It crashes when it fails to connect. |
22:54:34 <Vorpal> why did you copy paste that?
22:54:35 <myndzi> why did you copy paste that?
22:55:03 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
22:55:13 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: +q myndzi!*@*.
22:55:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, well yeah works
22:55:36 <fizzie> Well, if you insist; but just once.
22:55:44 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -q myndzi!*@*.
22:56:12 <Vorpal> okay this is weird, it is only broken sometimes?
22:56:13 <myndzi> okay this is weird, it is only broken sometimes?
22:56:49 <fizzie> That was very confusing.
22:56:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah kick or mute or something, might be better to kick so he notices what was going on when kicked, rather than getting back in several hours time and having no idea why it is broken
22:57:07 <Vorpal> myndzi, so still broken?
22:57:13 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
22:57:14 <Vorpal> if it starts again though
22:57:19 <elliott> thanks to my genius efforts
22:57:29 <Vorpal> I wonder what caused that (parens?)
22:57:36 <elliott> So I got the newest humble bundle, since some of those games would be nice to have on Android. A warning though, Waking Mars does not work on Android if it is not allowed to call home with user metrics (like if it is blocked by a firewall or adblocker software modifying the hosts file). It crashes when it fails to connect.
22:57:43 <elliott> looks like i fixed it permanently!!
22:57:46 <Phantom_Hoover> interesting personal discovery of the day: when people say 'scone' the wrong way my accent involuntarily turns scottish
22:58:15 <shachaf> Vorpal: There's a new Humble Bundle?
22:58:28 <Vorpal> shachaf, yeah, android one again
22:58:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, sure your parents weren't experimenting with you like in that xkcd strip?
22:59:08 <Phantom_Hoover> they were exceptionally precise about it if that's the case
23:00:05 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I don't believe any bug is fixed permanently unless the code for it has been changed in some way
23:00:48 <Vorpal> elliott, I think myndzi is completely disabled now even
23:00:56 <Vorpal> elliott, so that bug fix just broke it another way
23:01:21 <Vorpal> yeah the script died completely
23:02:29 * pikhq_ just came out. Holy *crap* that was scary.
23:02:44 <Vorpal> of the closest? Or outdoors? or what?
23:03:33 <elliott> concept: rentable closets you can pay to come out of
23:04:05 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I don't understand why anyone who is not a sexual partner (or interested in becoming one) with the person in question would even care about the sexual orientation of other humans.
23:04:20 <pikhq_> Vorpal: In a sane world, this would be the case.
23:04:35 <pikhq_> We do not live in a sane world.
23:04:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, i presume you also don't care about someone's job or name or personal background
23:04:41 <kmc> i would go one further and say that in a sane world, 'sexual orientation' would not be a concept
23:05:04 <pikhq_> We live in a world where empiricism is an unpopular viewpoint.
23:05:16 <kmc> as opposed to the myriad other factors in attractiveness
23:05:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, there is a *slight* difference between sexual orientation and name.
23:06:14 <kmc> like if you're more attracted to short people or tall people, then whatever, but if you're more attracted to men or women, this is supposed to be a defining aspect of your identity
23:06:20 <elliott> <Vorpal> pikhq_, I don't understand why anyone who is not a sexual partner (or interested in becoming one) with the person in question would even care about the sexual orientation of other humans.
23:06:31 <kmc> as someone who is attracted to both short and tall men and women, i don't really get this
23:06:33 <elliott> in a world where it is implicitly assumed you are heterosexual unless stated otherwise of course it's relevant
23:06:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I probably don't care about their job or personal background unless it is somehow relevant to me though.
23:07:03 <kmc> except that, if people are persecuting you for who you are attracted to, they will force a label on you, and you can use that label to fight back as well
23:07:09 <kmc> so it makes sense in that context
23:07:20 <elliott> this is like the people who say affirmative action is "reverse racism" because in a perfect world there would be no need to even consider such things
23:07:48 <pikhq_> Men are attractive. Women are also attractive. Easy.
23:08:07 <FreeFull> I think many men don't find men attractive
23:08:14 <kmc> sometimes i see someone on the street and decide that they're attractive before i decide whether they look like a dude or a lady
23:08:21 <kmc> (this works better from behind)
23:08:25 <pikhq_> Yeah, well, I'm not one of those men.
23:08:40 <FreeFull> "< kmc> (this works better from behind)
23:08:45 <kmc> "that's what she said"
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23:11:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, my point here was that there is no reason why 1) there would be anything special about any sexual orientation that would require coming out of the closest 2) sexual orientation is unimportant to other people unless they are your sexual partners or are interested in such a relationship. It is not a defining characteristic of any person.
23:11:23 <kmc> <kmc> except that, if people are persecuting you for who you are attracted to, they will force a label on you, and you can use that label to fight back as well
23:11:29 <kmc> that is why it's such a big deal
23:11:53 <Vorpal> As long as everyone involved are consenting adults why would anyone outside care about it.
23:11:56 <Phantom_Hoover> yes Vorpal you're ever so forward-thinking now please let the rest of us talk like adults
23:12:18 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Yes, in a fairy-tale land that's roughly how it'd work.
23:12:32 <Vorpal> pikhq_, yeah that is not how it works, but that is how it *ought* to work
23:12:42 <kmc> cock au vin
23:12:50 <Vorpal> kmc, and that is an interesting point about fighting back
23:13:18 <elliott> Vorpal: this is the kind of conversation that might be worth having in 1000 years when gender, prejudices about it, prejudices about sexual orientation, blah blah blah are not deeply ingrained in society
23:13:29 <elliott> as of now they are so this stuff is relevant
23:13:39 <kmc> i wonder if elliott thinks my view is as wrong as Vorpal's
23:13:42 <kmc> they don't seem very different
23:13:56 <kmc> i think it is worth talking about now, while recognizing that it doesn't match the society we live in
23:14:02 <kmc> it does rather match the subculture of people i know personally
23:14:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i think it's worth talking about in a more nuanced way than Vorpal's "OH MY GOD SOCIETY ISN'T PERFECT WHAT IS WITH THAT"
23:14:49 <Vorpal> elliott, I guess the issue then is why I do not feel those prejudices. I don't understand racism. I heard it explained with the fear of the unknown and what not, yet I don't see what there is to fear in a different skin colour.
23:15:26 <elliott> kmc: maybe you are interpreting what I said differently to how I intended it
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23:15:54 <elliott> i'm certainly not saying discussions about this topic in general are a bad thing to have; i just mean that saying "well why does it even have to be a thing" is counterproductive
23:16:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, again, you simply see this entire topic as a vehicle to front your own progressiveness
23:16:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:16:43 <elliott> Vorpal: to be frank I find it vastly more likely you do have at least some of those prejudices but they are just ingrained enough that you do not notice them... which is not a statement about you; that applies to everyone on the planet
23:16:54 <elliott> since a whole lot of everything is ingrained stuff you don't notice
23:17:07 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm not sure I'm progressive, I just try to be sensible. I do not understand homophobia, racism and so on. I guess I just do not at all experience the feeling which give rise to these kind of views?
23:17:11 <kmc> even if you aren't actively racist it is a lot easier to act like racism is no big deal if you have racial privilege
23:17:15 <elliott> (and hence: this is why sexual orientation being a thing that is actually brought up is important -- because it counteracts this)
23:17:18 <Vorpal> elliott, that might be the case
23:17:31 <elliott> anyway I don't think I actually agree with kmc
23:17:40 <elliott> anyway I don't think I actually disagree with kmc
23:17:44 <kmc> let's disagree to agree
23:17:54 <elliott> not that I think Vorpal is "wrong" per se either
23:18:02 <elliott> anyway let's talk about something else
23:18:09 <elliott> #esoteric is meant to be dumb
23:18:20 <elliott> thank you oonbotti, that was sufficientyl dumb
23:19:55 <Phantom_Hoover> any sufficiently dumb comment is indistinguishable from idiot
23:20:13 <Gregor> Where'd my +v go anyway.
23:20:22 <Gregor> I should've been given a +v access mode instead of just a one-time +v.
23:20:28 <Vorpal> elliott, well, I work daily with people from all over the world (I have colleagues from Canada, Chile and Australia) and have no issues with that. I have friends who are from countries that racism in Sweden has traditionally been targeted at (Bosnia for example).
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23:21:50 <elliott> are these Canadians and Australians white
23:22:07 <tswett> Hey guys, have a stupid character set: http://wiki.zbasu.net/idios
23:22:33 <Bike> «0x20: "escape"; has no defined meaning» nice.
23:22:38 <Vorpal> elliott, the Canadian guy is, the Australian one is not, though not a native either. Think he have parents from somewhere in India or something, don't remember the detail.
23:23:10 <pikhq_> tswett: Why, it can't even represent Japanese!
23:23:22 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:23:23 <tswett> pikhq_: I thought of putting in katakana just for kicks.
23:23:25 <pikhq_> I insist you add the glyphs necessary to represent pikhq romanized Japanese.
23:23:25 <elliott> Vorpal: anyway I am not accusing you of being a gigantic racist or anything :P
23:23:34 <tswett> Which glyphs would those be?
23:23:41 <elliott> but kmc is right -- prejudice is a lot harder to see if it doesn't affect you
23:23:45 <Vorpal> elliott, the Chilean guy, I'm not sure, not a native indian but not traditionally white either.
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23:24:10 <Vorpal> I guess I just grew up learning that these sort of things were non-issues.
23:24:22 <pikhq_> Which are: à ì ù è ò â î û ê ô ȳ ā ī ū ē ō (more glyphs may be necessary for other Japonic languages, but as far as I know that's what's necessary for any form of Japanese proper)
23:24:36 <elliott> well Sweden is probably better than average at this stuff
23:24:40 <elliott> but also what Phantom_Hoover said
23:24:55 <tswett> What are grave accents, circumflexes, and ȳ for?
23:25:12 <Bike> hepburn romanization, obviously
23:25:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm? There is certainly racism in Sweden. There is a racist party in the parliament even currently. BNP style, but maybe not quite as bad.
23:25:23 <pikhq_> Grave is the dakuten, circumflex is the handakuten, the bar is for small glyphs.
23:25:29 <Bike> have it support lots of languages, but only with outmoded romanization styles
23:25:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so I guess you could blame/thank my parents rather than the social climate at large.
23:25:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't say it isn't an issue. I just said I don't understand *why* it is considered an issue by some.
23:26:06 <pikhq_> This is for an *encoding of kana*, not really a good romanization scheme. :)
23:26:13 <elliott> apparently Sweden has no official ethnicity statistics
23:26:23 <tswett> So are "ba" and "pa" written as "hà" and "hâ"?
23:26:33 <Bike> pikhq_: only seal script, then
23:26:54 <Phantom_Hoover> "i bet all you inferior countries wish you could be like your nordic supermen"
23:26:55 <pikhq_> tswett: One other thing: the sokuon (っ) is written '
23:26:57 <Vorpal> elliott, how would they collect that info anyway?
23:26:59 -!- myndzi has joined.
23:27:04 <myndzi> i disabled it to write a better one
23:27:11 <elliott> Vorpal: well you all get a barcode at birth in sweden right
23:27:11 <tswett> pikhq_: ah, so I'll have to add ' to the character set, too.
23:27:12 <pikhq_> tswett: So, Hepburn "roppyaku" is pikhq "ro'hîȳaku"
23:27:13 <myndzi> huh, i think my server just cut out
23:27:22 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> "i bet all you inferior countries wish you could be like your nordic supermen" <-- that sounds like it would be racism towards the rest of the world :P
23:27:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it concerns me that you are unfamiliar with censuses
23:27:40 <Vorpal> elliott, we have social security numbers, no bar code though
23:27:44 <pikhq_> One also encodes long vowels as you would in kana.
23:27:48 <Phantom_Hoover> also that's because swedes are too dumb to work out that they're inferior
23:27:52 <Vorpal> I'm sure you could encode the SSN as a bar code if you wanted though
23:27:55 <pikhq_> So, "Tōkyō" is "Toukiȳou"
23:27:57 <elliott> Vorpal: are you sure you just haven't found your barcode yet???
23:28:22 <pikhq_> ... Why'd I capitalize that?
23:28:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, we don't do censuses in Sweden since a great deal of years. We simply trust the registry being kept up to date as people are born and die.
23:29:09 <pikhq_> tswett: There are, FWIW, some advantages to this scheme.
23:29:18 <elliott> you miss out on the experience of censuses with big yelling warnings saying how mandatory they are
23:29:20 <Phantom_Hoover> "i mean it's not like anyone could get into the country without us knowing"
23:29:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so it was in the context of that which my comment should be taken
23:29:25 <pikhq_> tswett: "ヴ" cannot be represented in Hepburn, but it's just "ù" in pikhq
23:29:41 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well who would flee to sweden
23:30:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, even people who are here illegally have right to get emergency health care and so on btw
23:30:14 <tswett> Wait, I don't know how to attach "ōkii" to a noun.
23:30:35 <fizzie> I remember there was an occasion where Linus was giving a lecture, and a person from the audience started a long "question"/rant about the mark-of-the-beast microchips that are being implanted into people these days.
23:30:43 <pikhq_> It's an -i adjective, so one just does it before the noun.
23:30:53 <pikhq_> i.e. "big island" is "ōkii shima"
23:30:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, speaking of which, US politics make me scratch my head quite often.
23:31:07 <Vorpal> sometimes it just appears so backwards
23:31:09 <elliott> US politics make the US scratch their heads also
23:31:15 <pikhq_> Though for some reason I want to prefer "ōkina shima"
23:31:38 <pikhq_> (that adjective is a weird case in that there's a -na version of it that is mostly interchangeable)
23:31:45 <tswett> pikhq_: do you know a significant amount of Japanese?
23:31:46 <elliott> guys can we somehow tie in this discussion with the pikhq_-tswett one
23:31:48 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: No; this was in Finland, in Finnish, and the person was female. The video's in YouTube, but, again, Finnish.
23:31:51 <elliott> so i can stop having to skip every other line
23:32:03 <Bike> elliott: japan has race problems, how about that
23:32:17 -!- kallisti has changed nick to KALLISTI.
23:32:20 <pikhq_> Yeah, Japan actually does have a number of racial problems.
23:32:22 <Bike> or, the racism inherent in hepburn's romanizing stuffs
23:32:34 <Bike> or perhaps romanization in general!
23:32:47 <pikhq_> Go ask the Ainu how they're doing OH WAIT THEY'RE BASICALLY GONE.
23:33:07 <tswett> Okay, time to write a line editor in MIPS assembly.
23:33:07 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, aren't "japanese only" signs fairly common in some places
23:33:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, btw speaking of census, wouldn't it be rather easy to hide away from that anyway?
23:34:02 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:34:26 <Vorpal> it isn't like people who are in the country illegally aren't breaking the law already
23:34:38 <pikhq_> Certain obnoxious white Japanese people (ARUDŌ Debito) have made a big deal of it in Japanese courts...
23:34:43 <Vorpal> how often do UK do censuses?
23:35:29 <Vorpal> pikhq_, who are "Ainu"?
23:35:41 <Bike> see, there you go.
23:35:55 <Bike> what about the other indigenous groups? are they annihilated yet
23:36:47 <pikhq_> Vorpal: The Ainu are an aboriginal people from northern Japan and very far eastern Russia...
23:36:58 <Bike> or, to go back to the language thing, ryukyuan language suppression?
23:37:06 <pikhq_> Vorpal: The Soviets booted them all out to Japan, and then WWII Japan was dicks.
23:37:19 <pikhq_> And now there's about 100 Ainu speakers.
23:37:31 <Bike> oh geez, I didn't think it was that bad :(
23:37:47 <pikhq_> Yeah, Ryūkyūan languages got fucked with badly, too. But nowhere near as bad.
23:38:15 <Vorpal> <pikhq_> Certain obnoxious white Japanese people (ARUDŌ Debito) have made a big deal of it in Japanese courts... <-- white Japanse people? What are we talking about here exactly?
23:38:24 <pikhq_> Vorpal: White person who is a citizen of Japan.
23:38:33 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: the right of passage is a natural right of all citizens!
23:38:40 <Vorpal> pikhq_, like Europeans that moved there?
23:38:52 <Bike> or, what do you mean, like, do I have to write a brainfuck variant
23:38:56 <Phantom_Hoover> but the condition for citizenship is writing an eodermdrome interpreter
23:39:08 <Phantom_Hoover> making a brainfuck derivative automatically disqualifies you
23:39:27 <elliott> Vorpal: white people living in japan can also have children and stuff
23:39:32 <elliott> or so I hear......................
23:39:43 <Bike> but I have this great idea, it's like brainfuck plus befunge and intercal!
23:39:57 <Vorpal> elliott, well sure. I was wondering if he was referring to yet another group of people that were native to the area and white or something
23:39:57 <elliott> Bike: amazing, you should put it on the wiki pronto
23:40:02 <elliott> make sure to make the spec horribly ambiguous
23:40:09 <pikhq_> elliott: Japan is jus sanguinis, though.
23:40:17 <Bike> spec? I think you mean download link
23:40:17 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, wait, are you implying they're obnoxious for fighting racial prejudice or am i misreading
23:40:26 <Phantom_Hoover> <pikhq_> Certain obnoxious white Japanese people (ARUDŌ Debito) have made a big deal of it in Japanese courts..
23:40:46 <Vorpal> elliott, so my question obviously was asking if he meant western (and descendants of western) persons or something else.
23:40:49 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: No, just that Debito in particular tries to be the squeaky wheel that gets the grease. :)
23:40:59 <KALLISTI> I HAVE BEEN CONVERTED INTO SQL OR POSSIBLY BASIC OR POSSIBLY COBOL OR POSSIBLY ASSEMBLY
23:41:14 <Bike> oh, that reminds me though, the other month a guy I know said that in school he learned that ainu were white
23:41:15 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, you have just said something that makes roughly no sense
23:41:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I barely know anything about it but isn't the anti-foreigner prejudice in Japan not really anti-white racism at all?
23:41:24 <elliott> more like a generalised xenophobia or whatever
23:41:32 <Bike> apparently he learned about race from 19th-century quality textbooks, three races and all
23:41:32 <elliott> this is just the impression I've got though, I don't actually know anything :P
23:41:38 <pikhq_> elliott: It's generalized xenophobia.
23:41:44 <pikhq_> elliott: White people have it easier, in a way.
23:42:03 <Phantom_Hoover> eh, we're happy enough to call hatred of muslims racism, i think the term is generalised enough to support that usage
23:42:40 <KALLISTI> this conversation reminds me of a "wonderful" debate I was in recently with a denizen of IRC
23:42:55 <KALLISTI> claiming that basically every other language should romanize their alphabets
23:42:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well islamophobia is at least usually linked to actual racism but fair enough
23:43:04 -!- augur has joined.
23:43:08 <elliott> KALLISTI: that way we wouldn't have to implement unicode!!
23:43:17 <kmc> sometimes it is linked to the awful attitudes towards human rights in certain muslim communities
23:43:23 <KALLISTI> elliott: yeah the conversation actually came up because I claimed that UTF-8 for URLs would make way more sense
23:44:42 <Vorpal> the IDN stuff makes no bloody sense. Until you realise that everything these days is basically built to be backward compatible with imperfect solutions made 30-20 years ago
23:45:05 <kmc> yes that is how everything has worked forever
23:45:24 <Vorpal> it results in so many problems though
23:46:12 <kmc> speaking of
23:46:14 <kmc> i hate unix
23:46:25 <kmc> just because i run "foo" and it dies cleanly when i hit ^C
23:46:30 <Vorpal> oh yeah, it has some good ideas but a LOT of flaws
23:46:31 <Bike> have you read the handbook
23:46:32 <kmc> does not mean that killall -INT foo will make it die cleanly
23:46:54 <kmc> i have a bunch of processes that launch other processes and it works fine when you run it manually, but the cleanup is a disaster otherwise
23:47:01 <Vorpal> kmc, which signal does ^C send then? I thought it was INT?
23:47:09 <kmc> it sends it to the whole process group though
23:47:21 <Vorpal> I guess you would have to do that then?
23:47:37 <kmc> yeah, but setting it up yourself is a pain
23:47:55 <Vorpal> which piece of software is this? So I can avoid it
23:47:55 <kmc> basically it's easy to say "kill everything running in this terminal" but hard to say "kill everything launched from this exec call"
23:48:13 <Vorpal> kmc, I meant which software on linux
23:48:19 <kmc> some software i wrote
23:48:24 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: so, if the state graph is abc and the match subgraph of a command is b, the interpreter could run that command, in which case the one node would be "open"?
23:48:28 <elliott> kmc: you should use @ instead
23:48:31 <kmc> if you understood the above
23:48:38 <kmc> you would understand that it is not my fault particularly
23:48:57 <Vorpal> kmc, true, I would just use a supervisor process, like systemd or daemontools or such
23:49:13 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Doesn't even really solve The Problem.
23:49:13 <kmc> yeah i'm not asking for advice
23:49:24 <kmc> since i have not described my problem in detail anyway
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23:49:31 <kmc> i'm just complaining
23:49:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, you need to know both match and substitution subgraphs to determine if a node is open.
23:49:54 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: oh, yes, duh. silly me.
23:50:06 <kmc> any complaint gets responses of "that's easy, you should just use foo and bar"
23:50:11 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: I thought it said that it used the same letter in the state graph and the match subgraph, oops.
23:50:11 <kmc> which is annoying
23:50:18 <kmc> but i'm in an annoyed mood generally
23:50:20 <Vorpal> what... there is "Angry Birds Star Wars" now?
23:50:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, nah, the tricky part is that the state graph is completely unlabelled.
23:50:54 <Jafet> kmc: that's easy, you should just use screen.
23:50:58 <fizzie> There was Angry Birds Space; it sounds a sensible step.
23:51:18 <Phantom_Hoover> So you have to use a general subgraph matcher to work out what can actually be executed.
23:51:30 <elliott> Vorpal: is this because of disney
23:51:34 <Vorpal> going to download it just to see how bad it is...
23:51:44 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: right. but clearly having a single interpreter step be an np complete problem is what makes it worthwhile
23:51:52 <Vorpal> can't be any worse than the usual Angry Birds I guess
23:51:59 <elliott> i guess that it is identical to an angry birds game
23:52:03 <elliott> but looks vaguely star-warsy
23:52:08 <kmc> "i'm not asking for advice, but thank you for inferring my problem based on the assumption that i am an idiot and then solving it for me"
23:52:09 <Arc_Koen> Vorpal: you do realize if you do that they win their gamble
23:52:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, actually when i looked this up i discovered that for fixed match subgraphs the algorithm is O(n^2) or something else pleasantly small
23:52:27 <elliott> kmc: well you are an idiot
23:52:32 <elliott> kmc: because you are not using @
23:52:34 <kmc> well ok but
23:52:50 <Vorpal> Arc_Koen, apart from that I do not buy any micro transactions and I have an adblocker
23:52:57 <Vorpal> Arc_Koen, so they make zero money from me
23:52:57 <Jafet> Where do I get the time machine to get @
23:53:21 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:53:26 <Phantom_Hoover> "Ullmann (1976) describes a recursive backtracking procedure for solving the subgraph isomorphism problem. Although its running time is, in general, exponential, it takes polynomial time for any fixed choice of H (with a polynomial that depends on the choice of H)."
23:53:38 <Bike> seems convenient enough
23:53:58 <elliott> Bike: has anyone told you about the eodeoredoemroemdomeormodrmodrme curse yet
23:54:15 <fizzie> There's an amazing number of Angry Birds merchandize around. Today at the grocery store there were Angry Birds skin care products from Lumene.
23:54:21 <Bike> am I going to go insane or something
23:54:26 <fizzie> There's also the Angry Birds coffees.
23:54:33 <Bike> isn't there an angry birds theme park?
23:54:34 -!- augur has joined.
23:54:36 <FreeFull> fizzie: Do they make your skin yellow, blue and red
23:54:40 <Phantom_Hoover> no, it's just that all other attempts to implement it have failed
23:54:53 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: do you mean like the place or the drink?
23:54:54 <Phantom_Hoover> except one by oklopol which is a) lost in the mists of time and b) hideously slow
23:54:55 <elliott> Bike: well so far only one person claims to have successfully implemented it and their interpreter has been lost and was never publicly released
23:54:58 <elliott> and also they were already cursed
23:55:02 <fizzie> FreeFull: I didn't stop to read the product descriptions.
23:55:08 <Bike> well shit, how can I turn this down now
23:55:16 <Phantom_Hoover> i suspect that this is mainly because of the subgraph isomorphism
23:55:39 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: The drink; there's two Angry Birds -themed brands of it. I forget the exact names.
23:55:40 <lambdabot> "aeiouaeiouaeiouaeiouaeiouaeiouaeiouaeiouaeiouaeiouaeiouaeiouaeiouaeiouaeio...
23:55:45 <Bike> i'm not sure how exactly this would ever be not hideously slow
23:55:51 <Phantom_Hoover> dammit, my university apparently don't have general access to the acm
23:55:56 <Arc_Koen> it can't be worse than british coffee, can it?
23:56:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, http://jgaa.info/accepted/99/Eppstein99.3.3.pdf is the cited paper for the polynomial thing
23:56:13 <fizzie> One of them was the Early Bird coffee.
23:56:24 <Bike> i'm trying to grab the ullman paper from my amazing piracy network
23:56:25 <fizzie> And the other was some kind of explosive espresso.
23:56:26 <Arc_Koen> sounds like a good name for a coffee
23:56:47 <elliott> Bike: oklopol's just did the naive thing iirc
23:56:58 <elliott> i.e. the one involving 0 research papers
23:57:00 <Phantom_Hoover> however, it doesn't actually give ullman's algorithm and, as i mentioned, his paper is paywalled
23:57:10 <elliott> didn't i once find the paper
23:57:54 <fizzie> Rovio has publicly stated that "going forward" they will only ever consider game ideas that can be readily turned to merchandizing.
23:57:55 <Phantom_Hoover> http://oldwww.prip.tuwien.ac.at/teaching/ss/strupr/vogl.pdf
23:58:12 <Bike> oh, this is the same designer who did underload, and I already implemented that, so obviously this will be just as simple
23:58:38 <Phantom_Hoover> istr we once tried interpreting underload in eodermdrome
23:59:04 <elliott> Bike: um I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the same designer also did http://esolangs.org/wiki/Feather
23:59:30 <fizzie> Finnair had an Angry Birds theme flight to Japan, though they didn't (afaik) shoot the plane out of a giant slingshot.
23:59:38 <Bike> elliott: well that doesn't seem hard either, by virtue of my knowing nothing about it, see?
23:59:45 <fizzie> Nor did it break into three smaller planes mid-flight.
23:59:48 <elliott> Bike: it involves time travel
23:59:51 <elliott> ais523: tell Bike about Feather!
00:00:14 <Vorpal> Arc_Koen, at least it appears to be based on the original movies, not the prequels.
00:00:17 <Phantom_Hoover> you'd basically have to do it "dna style" and have an attached protein that substitutes along a structure, splittting it into two behind it
00:00:44 <Arc_Koen> Vorpal: movies? THEY DID ANGRY BIRD MOVIES??
00:00:47 <Vorpal> Arc_Koen, and the music is better than the normal terrible angry birds music. Other than that is basically the same idea.
00:00:49 <Bike> how excitingly exotic
00:00:52 <Vorpal> Arc_Koen, no the star wars ones
00:01:08 <Vorpal> Arc_Koen, since it is angry birds star wars
00:01:17 <Arc_Koen> they did angry birds star wars movies????
00:01:27 <Vorpal> Arc_Koen, they did angry birds star wars game
00:01:41 <Vorpal> Arc_Koen, which is based on star wars 3-6
00:01:50 <Arc_Koen> oh hey I just saw an ad for twilight 5 today
00:01:54 <elliott> really through could a hypothetical angry birds star wars film really be worse than the prequels
00:01:56 <Vorpal> so no Jar Jar Binks at least
00:02:06 <Vorpal> elliott, hm... that is a close call
00:02:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not 4-6? But you said "original".
00:02:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, err I meant 4-6
00:02:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, off by one error
00:02:38 <elliott> i don't even like star wars and i want to see the new films coming out
00:02:45 <elliott> they will either be a trainwreck or surprisingly good
00:02:57 <elliott> either way it'll be entertaining
00:02:58 <Vorpal> elliott, glad I'm not alone in not being a fan of star wars
00:02:59 <pikhq_> It doesn't have Lucas running the show, which is very promising.
00:03:02 <fizzie> FreeFull: Angry Lego Birds Star Wars.
00:03:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, from what I heard the Lego games are usually actually kind of good
00:03:44 <Arc_Koen> but everytime he speaks I can't seem to manage to understand what he says
00:13:54 <kmc> i think maybe it is harder to get over someone being annoying in the past than it is to forgive them for doing something specific to hurt you
00:14:05 <kmc> because annoyance is this basic conditioning thing
00:14:20 <kmc> it gets to the point where whenever you hear their voice you are automatically annoyed
00:16:23 <elliott> and that's why I can never forgive kmc
00:24:46 * pikhq_ contemplates replacing his facebook page with a series of figurative thermonuclear bombs
00:26:51 <elliott> how figurative are we talking here
00:27:42 <pikhq_> Well, I'll get to see who amongst family and friends is homophobic, and to what degree.
00:28:38 <elliott> that's at least 7 figurative
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00:44:38 <elliott> i literally just asked how figurative they are
00:46:09 <kmc> figurative neutron bomb
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01:01:42 <Arc_Koen> it's funny how the plot in atlantis' first season seems to be exactly the same as in sg1's first season
01:02:11 <Arc_Koen> except in sg1 it felt like the gate gave us an opening on a huge new world
01:02:35 <Arc_Koen> and in atlantis it feels like they're stranded in a very small place
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01:14:53 <coppro> Arc_Koen: rather, yeah
01:15:13 <Arc_Koen> well as small as a galaxy can be
01:15:24 <Arc_Koen> also, I had a few questions for you
01:15:44 <Arc_Koen> they've repeated several times that "the gate on this planet is the only one that can dial to earth"
01:15:56 <Arc_Koen> how the hell do they know that and why the hell would it be true?
01:16:26 <coppro> I don't know if it's established how they work at out
01:16:39 <Arc_Koen> also, back when there were two active stargates on earth, how come incoming wormholes always hooked to sgc's stargate and never to the russian one?
01:16:42 <coppro> but at some point it's mentioned that the Atlantis DHD contains a special control crystal to allow it to dial 8 chevrons
01:17:03 <coppro> Because the Russians were really good at timing connecting and disconnecting the DHD
01:17:22 <kmc> this is how we fix things on the russian space station
01:17:27 <Arc_Koen> so you can just disconnect the dhd and the gate will no longer work<,
01:17:38 <coppro> it will still accept wormholes
01:17:50 <coppro> but when it was disconnected, the SG-1 gate became primary
01:18:30 <kmc> should one watch stargate?
01:18:35 <Arc_Koen> and when it's connected, it becomes primary for offworld russian teams?
01:18:39 <coppro> it's implied that primary-ness is also determined by the most recent use
01:19:11 <coppro> since the Antartica gate didn't become primary
01:19:43 <Arc_Koen> also, what about those very very advanced guys on the planet that didn't have a gate?
01:19:58 <Arc_Koen> those who made up the clorel/scar trial
01:20:17 <coppro> Arc_Koen: Yes. The Russians somehow managed to time their dial-ins so that they wouldn't accidentally get a US team
01:20:36 <coppro> (also klorel & skarra, I believe)
01:20:38 <Arc_Koen> coppro: I just don't understand how they managed not to go to the sgc
01:21:16 <Arc_Koen> at some point in the series (probably seaosn 5) they simply stopped mentionning them
01:21:34 <coppro> Arc_Koen: They timed when they would dial ack
01:21:42 <coppro> "We will dial back in in 6 hours"
01:21:50 <Bike> i thought the tollan died at some point
01:22:04 <coppro> what about the tollan?
01:22:28 <Arc_Koen> but how does the fact that they will dial back in in 6 hours prevent them from going to the sgc gate?
01:23:04 <Arc_Koen> Bike: well I remember during the trial episode, sg1 saved their asses
01:23:11 <Arc_Koen> and then I never heard of them again
01:23:27 <Bike> i thought they died then though...
01:23:34 <Arc_Koen> except maybe in the "the-NDI-steals-artifacts" episode
01:23:38 <Bike> well, let me consult the inevitable wiki
01:23:57 <coppro> Arc_Koen: The Russians reconnect the DHD 6 hours later
01:24:08 <Arc_Koen> yes, but the sgc gate is connected as well
01:24:18 <Bike> «Anubis found a way to make his fleet impervious to the Tollan Ion cannons, their only defense, they met their eventual destruction» oh that douche
01:24:21 <coppro> right but the active DHD causes the Russian gate to take priority
01:24:38 <Arc_Koen> hmmmm I might have missed that episode
01:24:50 <coppro> it was probably mentioned off-hand somewhere
01:25:16 <Arc_Koen> like, "oh btw, the tollans were exterminated last week. wanna go fishing?"
01:25:30 <Bike> they were jerks, weren't they
01:25:50 <Arc_Koen> what about those guys from 2010?
01:26:10 <Arc_Koen> I was expecting them to reappear at some point or another, did I miss that too?
01:26:54 <Arc_Koen> (you know the people who supposedly formed an alliance with earth, then stopped everyone from being able to reproduce, then sg1 had to go back in time)
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01:53:25 <ion> I shoud rewatch SG. I don’t remember much about it anymore.
01:53:35 <ion> For instance, i don’t remember the Tollans.
01:54:11 <ion> They look familiar in a Google image search, but i don’t remember the relevant plot.
02:03:04 <Arc_Koen> ion: plot is "we're the tollans. we're technologically far more advanced than everyone else. we're invincible. but we'd rather watch you die than share with you."
02:03:17 <Arc_Koen> and apparently they are the ones who die
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02:28:48 <kmc> David Simon's blog is called "The Audacity of Despair"
03:08:16 <kmc> http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/63991000/gif/_63991516_race.gif
03:28:23 <Gregor> http://whitepeoplemourningromney.tumblr.com/
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03:57:09 <pikhq_> Gregor: Dammit I want ponies
03:57:16 <pikhq_> Why am I addressing that to Gregor?
03:57:23 <pikhq_> Everyone else: Dammit I want ponies
03:57:40 <kmc> what kind?
03:57:56 <kmc> a pony is a big responsibility, pikhq_
03:58:17 * pikhq_ has actually taken care of horses before.
03:59:10 <Gregor> My Little Ponies are considerably less responsibility.
03:59:14 <Gregor> Seeing as how they're sapient.
03:59:21 <kmc> that's rather worse!
03:59:30 <kmc> if you kill them you can go to jail for murder
03:59:37 <kmc> it's like having a child
04:00:13 <pikhq_> You think of killing things when assigned a new responsibility?
04:00:17 <pikhq_> You should not have a pony.
04:03:23 <pikhq_> That said, 2 more days
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04:07:40 <kmc> look i'm just talking about the worst case scenario
04:08:18 <pikhq_> That's not the worst case scenario.
04:08:36 <pikhq_> The worst case scenario is that someone puts HF in your drinking water.
04:11:25 <pikhq_> Mmmm, tastes like agonizing death!
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04:14:08 <kmc> i think the worst case scenario is that a malevolent AI instantiates 2^80 copies of you in a simulacrum designed to produce the maximum possible pain and existential terror, forever
04:14:49 <pikhq_> Come now, that's not even close to the worst case scenario.
04:14:57 <pikhq_> I can think of numbers larger than 2^80!
04:16:14 <kmc> yeah, well
04:16:27 <shachaf> product [1..2^80]? That's pretty big.
04:16:44 <monqy> but would it be any worse or would it start getting better
04:16:51 <shachaf> I feel no sympathy for copies of me.
04:17:51 <monqy> maybe after a certain point it'd gradually stop being terrifying and start being goofy
04:18:14 <shachaf> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a6/Goofy.svg/220px-Goofy.svg.png
04:18:44 <kmc> which should i buy, a Windows 7 license I won't use or a Windows 8 license I won't use
04:19:17 <monqy> something you'll use
04:19:27 <shachaf> What about a Windows 3.11 license?
04:19:39 <kmc> assume that i must buy exactly one of these two
04:19:55 <shachaf> Are you certain not to use it?
04:20:05 <kmc> they are the same price
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04:23:06 <kmc> elliott: you are a true statesman
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04:24:52 <shachaf> elliott: a true scotsman ??
04:25:32 <pikhq_> Nah, he is no true Scotsman.
04:25:40 <pikhq_> No *true* Scotsman is not from Scotland!
04:25:54 <shachaf> Isn't Hexham basically Scotland?
04:26:20 <pikhq_> But it's not actually!
04:26:23 <shachaf> Hexham-upon-Thyme, Scotland
04:26:39 <pikhq_> They have *seven* pigs in Scotland.
04:27:02 <shachaf> That's as many as seven ones.
04:27:40 <elliott> shachaf: what has true scotsman got to do with what i said
04:28:14 <shachaf> It wasn't even addressed to you.
04:28:27 <elliott> <shachaf> elliott: a true scotsman ??
04:28:54 <shachaf> Cambridge, MA: Greater Boston Area or Greatest Boston Area?
04:29:00 <elliott> i don't quite see what you get out of outright obviously lying here
04:29:20 <kmc> greater boston buddhist cultural center
04:29:21 <shachaf> When you say "blah: blam?", it doesn't mean you're addressing blah.
04:29:28 <pikhq_> shachaf: Cambridge, MA: Real Boston.
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04:40:56 <kmc> imaginary boston
04:41:17 <pikhq_> Boston points in the complex plane.
04:47:46 <kmc> shachaf: i ordered the whatsit
04:48:03 <kmc> inanimate carbon rod
04:48:09 <kmc> i've got no soul to sell
04:48:25 <shachaf> You ordered the .au version?
04:48:40 <kmc> i ordered the i5 / 8GB
04:50:21 <kmc> M.A.T.H.S.
04:51:06 <shachaf> `learn maths stands for Mathematical Anti-Telharsic Harfatum Septomin
04:52:42 <quintopia> :/ there is no way to type backtick in connectbot on this phone
04:56:50 <kmc> ``for writing LaTeX'', he said
04:56:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `for: not found
04:57:48 <quintopia> i bet there's an android latex editor
05:11:17 <ais523> in Emacs pressing " will type `` or '' depending on context
05:11:23 <ais523> and you get a literal " by typing ""
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06:29:21 <kmc> oh boy, we get to add "frequentist statisticians" to the list of groups xkcd has strawmanned
06:30:12 <kmc> at least it makes a good goatkcd
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06:52:54 <ais523> <netbsd> I've tested it to work with Firefox and tested it to not work with Internet Explorer.
06:53:58 <ais523> kmc: surely the easiest way to check would be to contact someone on the other side of the world over IRC
06:54:03 <ais523> and ask them if the sun was still visible?
06:54:43 <fizzie> ais523: They might lie more often than that detector.
07:04:15 <Sgeo> Suppose you can't find anyone. Possibilities: The Sun exploding killed everyone on that side, some virus that needs its victims to be exposed to daylight ran rampant and killed everyone
07:04:31 <Sgeo> Hmm, there would be some survivors of the latter, I'm sure
07:05:16 <Bike> but would they have phones? (use your prior distribution of daylight in your answer)
07:07:48 <pikhq_> Stupidly obvious answer: look at the moon.
07:09:20 <fizzie> Which also wouldn't be visible, since circumstances conspire to make this as difficult as possible.
07:09:47 <Sgeo> That comma was intended to indicate a different scenario
07:09:48 <fizzie> (I remember a short story about sun going nova that involved deducing it from a really bright moon.)
07:10:10 <pikhq_> Well, the Bayesian has the correct answer. Bet on the sun still existing.
07:10:23 <pikhq_> If it doesn't exist, your money will be null and void soon anyways.
07:11:25 <pikhq_> And thus, anyone taking him up on the bet is either giving up money, or convinced the sun exploded and just doesn't care any more.
07:13:36 <fizzie> Sun, pshaw. What's it good for, anyway? Just a cause for annoying glares on screens.
07:13:54 <fizzie> We'll just turn on the lights if it goes out.
07:15:16 <pikhq_> Corrected: fizzie has the correct answer.
07:15:35 <Sgeo> How much of the sun's energy do we actually need? Enough to grow crops and keep the air and water at a survivable temperature, but surely a lot is wasted?
07:15:58 <Bike> most of it doesn't hit the earth, for one
07:16:29 <monqy> mirrors around the sun, get all of that energy to earth
07:17:58 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Currently, essentially all of it.
07:18:06 <fizzie> We could use a bit more of it up here, it was below the freezing point of water this morning again.
07:18:52 <Sgeo> pikhq_, well, not literally all of it. Solar panels don't cause significant negative effects, do they? Although, if much of the Earth's surface was covered in them, what would happen?
07:18:59 <ais523> Sgeo: we probably need slightly less than currently hits the Earth
07:19:16 <ais523> also, conservation of energy: the energy captured by solar panels eventually ends up dissipating as heat anyway
07:19:27 <pikhq_> The Earth is fairly small, and the Sun radiates equally in all directions.
07:19:43 <fizzie> ais523: They do increase Earth's albedo, I think.
07:19:53 <ais523> well it depends on where you install them
07:20:04 <ais523> Sgeo: also, another way to think of it: imagine that the Earth is mostly covered in grass
07:20:18 <fizzie> ais523: At least I'd sort of assume that solar panels don't reflect very much of (direct) sunlight; it sounds like it'd be slightly counterproductive.
07:21:02 <Sgeo> ais523, we use that energy for survival, kind of... well, animals we eat eat grass. What would happen if there was no grass, we killed all the grass and replaced with solar panels?
07:21:05 <ais523> they do actually reflect quite a lot at the moment
07:21:07 <Sgeo> Ecologically, I mean.
07:21:08 <ais523> because they aren't very efficient
07:21:22 <ais523> I think 33% efficient solar panels were invented last month, and they're prohibitively expensive to manufacture
07:21:44 <ais523> what would be neat would be solar panels that were transparent, i.e. they transmitted most of the energy they didn't convert to electricity
07:21:54 <ais523> that way if you needed to capture more light in a small area, you could stack them
07:22:10 <Bike> Sgeo: most autotrophs are solar. the few exceptions are things that rely on geothermal vents and chemosynthesis, not exactly enough to keep humanity alive
07:22:14 <ais523> Sgeo: we'd pretty much need to move to hydroponics to grow food to eat
07:22:32 <pikhq_> We'd have an easier time of it if we knew how to get fusion working.
07:22:35 <ais523> we could do without animals, it's possible to live on plant matter and dietary supplements alone
07:22:44 <ais523> but doing without plants as well is basically impossible
07:22:47 <ais523> (/other/ animals, I mean)
07:22:51 <ais523> we wouldn't want to, though
07:24:47 <fizzie> ais523: I suppose it's partly (mostly?) because the parts that do convert to electricity are reasonably picky about wavelengths, while the Sun's reasonably blackbodyish.
07:25:44 <fizzie> Still, 33% efficiency is far better than what grass manages.
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08:02:34 <fizzie> Uh... this is the famous W|A being clever: I ask for "distance from earth to moon / speed of light", and the main answer is "378 313 km/c (kilometers per speed of light in vacuum)" -- the best unit. (Okay, so the "unit conversions" list has the "1.262 seconds" result too, but still.)
08:07:25 <Jafet> Why doesn't it use planck units
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08:21:04 <coppro> http://homestuck.bandcamp.com/album/symphony-impossible-to-play
08:21:09 <coppro> so the fourth piece is really good
08:21:36 <coppro> except the arranger really doesn't like triplets for some reason :(
08:21:53 <coppro> at least, in the trumpet part
08:22:01 <coppro> gets them right in the piccolo
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09:02:19 <Deewiant> http://javadoc.bugaco.com/com/sun/java/swing/plaf/nimbus/InternalFrameInternalFrameTitlePaneInternalFrameTitlePaneMaximizeButtonPainter.html
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09:09:59 <shachaf> `addquote <Jafet> I wonder if Red Alert 4 will use MMIX
09:10:10 <HackEgo> 865) <Jafet> I wonder if Red Alert 4 will use MMIX
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12:13:22 <ais523> so, I came to a sudden realisation last sleep period
12:13:28 <ais523> brainfuck is a concatenative language
12:13:39 <ais523> it's not a very typical or idiomatic concatenative language, but it is one
12:14:21 <shachaf> Is C also a concatenative language?
12:14:28 <ais523> someone please agree with me or refute me, because this has implications
12:14:43 <ais523> shachaf: no, you can't separate a function from its arguments in a concatenative way
12:15:05 <shachaf> OK, the contents of one C function?
12:15:12 <Slereah_> Concatenation of two BF programs is also a valid BF program
12:15:19 <ais523> shachaf: I meant in a function call
12:15:38 <ais523> Slereah_: yeah, and if you see BF programs as functions (as in Pure BF), concatenating them = function composition
12:15:58 <ais523> this means that my monads in BF idea may not be too far from the mark after all
12:16:20 <ais523> the problem is that BF does not have any sort of operation on code segments
12:16:24 <ais523> apart from repeating them
12:16:31 <ais523> so you need a metalanguage to describe program transformations
12:16:50 <ais523> so I guess it's more like saying that you can create monad-like structures that compile to BF
12:16:52 <ais523> and operate on BF code
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16:16:15 <kmc> https://blogs.oracle.com/ksplice/entry/introducing_redpatch
16:18:06 <kmc> a while back, Red Hat stopped releasing source for their kernels in an easily digested form -- instead they give just one giant .patch file
16:19:10 <kmc> the Ksplice team (independently, and then at Oracle) has to reverse-engineer the individual patches
16:19:14 <kmc> and now they are publishing their work
16:19:37 <kmc> i'm sure the Internet will somehow conclude that Oracle is being evil here and Red Hat is the victim
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16:39:29 <atriq> KALLISTI, you look louder than usual
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17:05:38 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Esolang:Community_portal&diff=next&oldid=34681
17:05:48 <elliott> this edit is sort of inaccurate...
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17:10:46 <elliott> well the part where it implies the community portal should be used for discussions of esolangs in general
17:10:51 <elliott> when in actual fact it is only for discussion of the wiki
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17:16:47 <atriq> And post a message on (the person who made the edit)'s talk page?
17:17:10 <elliott> the problem is if you look at the community portal there is non-wiki related stuff on there already :P
17:25:06 <Arc_Koen> how about correcting it to "you can use [[User_talk:Theguywhomadethateditinthefirstplace|the talk page]] for discussions about esolangs in general."
17:26:54 <elliott> somehow i think that would be ever so slightly rude
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18:24:52 <Arc_Koen> if only there wasn't this thing about main characters not being able to die
18:25:04 <Arc_Koen> stargate would have soooooo much more suspense and drama
18:25:40 <Arc_Koen> like that episode where they found cassandra, the girl with a nuclear bomb in her belly
18:26:08 <Arc_Koen> and at some point major carter decides to stay with her till the end
18:26:19 <atriq> Arc_Koen, main characters not allowed to die? As a Homestuck fan, I smile
18:26:26 <Bike> yeah, that was a sad episode
18:26:29 <atriq> The main character of Homestuck has died... 3 times?
18:26:32 <Bike> and then it didn't go off. boring.
18:26:55 <Arc_Koen> Bike: well since major carter decided to stay and we know she can't die
18:27:09 <Arc_Koen> that kind of defused any emotion there could have been
18:27:11 <Jafet> The deus ex americana of television shows
18:27:13 <Bike> atriq: multiple deaths has about the same dramatic effect as none.
18:28:05 <Arc_Koen> that's why movies are so much better
18:28:09 <atriq> Homestuck seems to be an excersize in bringing characters back to life in various ways
18:28:13 <atriq> ANd now I will go eat
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18:28:21 <Arc_Koen> at least there are no "next episodes" so everybody can die
18:28:37 <Arc_Koen> james bond kind of dies four or five times in skyfall
18:28:40 <Jafet> Movies are not immune from deus ex americana
18:29:04 <Arc_Koen> I think even jean grey from x-men was never able to die so many times in a single story
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18:46:41 <Arc_Koen> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Loose_Circular_Brainfuck_(LCBF) says it's turing-complete
18:46:57 <Arc_Koen> but the only significant difference with brainfuck is that its tape is circular
18:47:04 <Arc_Koen> which kind of suppose it's bounded
18:48:25 <ion> I posted a popping (dance) video to a subreddit about popping pimples. Waiting for the downvotes. :-P http://www.reddit.com/r/popping/comments/12xbil/incredible_popping/
18:51:26 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: It could be a circular yet sometimes (e.g. when moving >, but not when moving <) growing; but indeed it seems to have a fixed size.
18:52:01 <atriq> ion, that's a subreddit that exists!?
18:52:39 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: The cells of the Python implementation seem to be bignums, though.
18:52:59 <Arc_Koen> something like "if current cell is rightmost, > goes to leftmost cell; if current cell is leftmost, < creates (and go to) a new cell to the left of the current cell"?
18:53:14 <fizzie> Er, assuming Python numbers are that. I think they are. They do that L thing when they go past regular integers.
18:54:06 <fizzie> I was thinking the other way around, but something like that, yes.
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19:46:17 <Vorpal> Okay this is interesting. It is almost like Google don't want me to use youtube. Now they went one step further than the usual "front page not properly updated for days with my subscriptions"-shit, which can be due to flawed caching or something. This time I got unsubscribe to about half the channels I'm subscribing to. Sorry, what?
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19:56:23 <Arc_Koen> elliott: what are the conditions to be met before a new category can be created? for instance, would it be ok if I created http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Categorization#Proposed_category:_Instruction-rewriting ?
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19:56:55 <elliott> i don't think there really are any criteria really :P
19:57:10 <elliott> it seems there's some disagreement about what it should be called?
19:57:43 <Arc_Koen> well, "Self-redefining" seems fine from what I understand
19:58:10 <Arc_Koen> AnotherTest argued "Instruction-redefining" was not 'open' enough, and I agree
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20:07:45 <Arc_Koen> urrrrh I hate it when titles are so explicit
20:08:21 <Arc_Koen> in my opinion a good title should make sense *after* you've watched the thing, not be a sumary of what happens
20:10:09 <kmc> The Bus That Couldn't Slow Down
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21:18:18 <Sgeo> Who knows how long this will last :/
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21:23:00 <kmc> welcome back
21:23:03 <kmc> (why did you leave?)
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21:24:31 <Sgeo> My Internet access cut out
21:26:02 <atriq> zzo38, lens is making parts of Prelude.Generalize not seem so great
21:26:06 <atriq> For instance, Part1 etc
21:30:00 <atriq> I'm... not sure what you can do with this
21:33:02 <atriq> But Prelude.Generalize.Part1 is the same-but-worse as Control.Lens.Tuple.Field1 etc
21:33:26 <zzo38> O, well it wasn't there before I think
21:33:48 <atriq> Nah, Prelude.Generalize predates Control.Lens by a long way
21:45:49 <atriq> elliott, have you made any headway with @ in the last year?
21:49:10 <Sgeo> I literally just restarted my mouse.
21:49:17 <atriq> Will you in the next year?
21:49:36 <Sgeo> It was acting like I was holding down the mouse button. Restarting it fixed it.
21:50:23 -!- carado has joined.
21:50:27 <Sgeo> And by restarting, I mean turning it off and on again.
21:51:38 <Sgeo> `welcome carado
21:51:44 <HackEgo> carado: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:52:42 <carado> oh, thanks for the welcome !
21:53:09 <atriq> Does anyone use #esoteric-minecraft anymore?
21:55:59 <zzo38> carado: It is common procedure to welcome everyone (including you, of course)
21:59:19 <fizzie> atriq: It was just a moment ago (September 4th) that somebody spoke there. (That was PH wondering when was the last time anyone spoke; for the record, that was PH saying "hello" on August 5th.)
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22:00:03 <impomatic> zzo38: is your Forth adventure system still online somewhere?
22:01:55 <Vorpal> hm did the N64 have PCM audio or did it synthesise it?
22:02:10 <kmc> i don't understand that dichotomy
22:02:59 <Vorpal> kmc, I mean, did it synthesise it as SNES did (though more advanced obviously), or did it basically use pre-recorded audio data?
22:11:10 <fizzie> I don't think it has dedicated hardware sound-synthesis-only chips; but that's not to say all ROMs would use just pre-recorded PCM, apparently the DSPish chip that does graphics geometry things generally also does the actual audio synthesis, based on what data it gets from the MIPS core. (Wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo's dev tools had stock microcode for that chip; reportedly that's the ...
22:11:16 <fizzie> ... case for the ARM7 side of the DS.)
22:14:16 <Phantom_Hoover> "2011...the acedemic year of death and sneaky hijinks."
22:14:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I wonder if they're really this sloppy or if it's just a front.
22:16:12 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/CITg -- sounds very typical.
22:16:42 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, there is a university campus game called Assassins or some such
22:17:00 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: is your university MIT?
22:17:19 <kmc> MIT's is a rather elaborate live action roleplaying society
22:17:20 <kmc> http://web.mit.edu/assassin/www/
22:20:17 <kmc> at my school we had an assassination game which was all about leaving traps
22:20:25 <Vorpal> kmc, what sort of traps?
22:20:40 <kmc> to get a kill, the target had to trigger some kind of noise or flashing light or other prominent indicator placed by you
22:20:47 <kmc> but triggered by them
22:20:54 <kmc> people got pretty intense about defending themselves
22:21:02 <kmc> had lackeys open doors for them, push on chairs before they sat down
22:21:11 <kmc> some people put razor wire in the ceilings above their rooms to prevent people breaking in
22:21:29 <Vorpal> you are making this up right?
22:21:33 <atriq> That sounds... crazy
22:21:50 <kmc> not making it up
22:22:17 <kmc> one time i got a kill by hiding a cellphone in someone's room, then setting up a buddy pounce in Pidgin which would send a text to that phone when the target logged in to AIM
22:22:31 <kmc> this was deemed to count as them triggering the trap, even though it had to go through my computer
22:22:51 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: yeah, there was a whole 'hyperspace' area accessible above the ceiling, which you could crawl around in
22:22:54 <kmc> was pretty cool
22:22:55 <atriq> Did you get your phone back
22:23:12 <kmc> there was 60 years of accumulated scavenged lab equipment hidden up there
22:23:13 <Vorpal> <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: yeah, there was a whole 'hyperspace' area accessible above the ceiling, which you could crawl around in <-- uh...?
22:23:20 <kmc> improvised local networks put in by the students in the 80's
22:23:35 <Vorpal> kmc, which university was this?
22:23:40 <kmc> they actually put in a homebrew phone / PBX / music sharing service in the 60's, before the college officially wired the dorms for phone
22:23:58 <kmc> though when I played alley assassins, we were actually living in the horrible temporary trailer park housing
22:24:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't *know*, but I wouldn't be surprised if the stock SGI microcode would support at least mixing K channels of (raw or compressed-with-some-codec) PCM (with DMA transfers), but possibly not much more software-synthesizy things than that.
22:24:16 <kmc> see also http://kheafield.com/personal/kludgenet/photos/
22:26:35 <kmc> we also spent evenings breaking into academic buildings and disassembling the locks on doors in order to construct home-made master keys
22:26:46 <kmc> and exploring the steam tunnels of course
22:26:53 <fizzie> The German Caltech would have even their "kludgenet" done with MILITARY PRECISION.
22:27:20 * impomatic explored steam tunnels under the school once.
22:28:37 <kmc> there was a *lot* of emo poetry written on the walls down there
22:29:26 <kmc> yeah, they were full of steam pipes
22:29:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Maybe there was a single, small group of emo poets that decided it was the darkest place to pour out their soul.
22:29:37 <kmc> and water pipes and fiber optic cables etc
22:29:43 <kmc> and boxes that say "DANGER 110,000 VOLTS"
22:29:46 <kmc> all covered in asbestos
22:30:05 <kmc> it's more efficient to generate it centrally and use it to heat every building on campus
22:30:08 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, to fuel the rotor fan
22:30:15 <kmc> a lot of colleges and corporate campuses do this
22:30:24 <kmc> in fact some cities like New York have city-wide steam heat distribution
22:30:49 <atriq> I think my school does?
22:30:55 <atriq> In the older building, anyway
22:31:14 <atriq> The older building used to be a hotel
22:32:01 <atriq> Anyway, my school is just a high school and hence lame compared to your grand universities
22:32:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I've been to exactly one school that wasn't built in the 19th century so central heating is the only heating I know
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22:34:49 <fizzie> I think a very clear majority of apartment buildings (don't know about standalone houses; some of those too) in cities in Finland tend to be part of the district heating network, though I don't know whether the big pipes carry steam or water; certainly the building-internal heating pipes are just warm water.
22:35:19 <impomatic> Do emos group? I thought they kept themselves to themselves...
22:36:34 <Phantom_Hoover> who would they pour the inner septic tank of their soul onto
22:37:54 <kmc> http://achewood.com/?date=06282004
22:39:29 <fizzie> Also I've heard some rumours that the Otaniemi student housing also had some... creative network installations way back in the dark ages; but they were all professional (100base-t inside walls for intra-building, 1000base-sx/lx/?x inter-building backbone) when I lived there.
22:41:06 <fizzie> "The 1 Gbps upgrade project, which will eventually provide 1 Gbps access connectivity to all users and 10 Gbps uplinks to access switches, started in July 2010 from Servinkuja 1." Oh, they've upgraded since then, too.
22:42:42 <fizzie> It's "only" tied to the Interweb through 2x10G connections via FUnet, so it's not like they could provide a real gigabit for everyone. But at least sharing of studying materials (that's what they used to call it) inside the campus will be nice and fast.
22:45:24 <fizzie> E.g. there were quite a few large corpora of instructional videos of human anatomy shared in the local network back when I lived there. (Slightly curious since the university doesn't have a medical school.)
22:49:20 <kmc> would you say this was the work of corporoaphiles
22:55:59 <fizzie> It could be; some of the corpora were really quite large! (By the standards of the day, anyway; terabytes were still quite impressive numbers at least on the consumer side of the fence.)
22:56:05 <kmc> seriously though, house fileservers *did* have lots of pirated copies of textbooks for important classes
22:56:22 <kmc> which was super useful
22:57:17 <fizzie> That much is true. The search engines had a "book" search category that matched a couple of likely extensions.
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23:00:44 <kmc> the house I was in currently has a 40? TB file server, but it recently melted
23:00:50 <kmc> actually more like caught fire
23:00:58 <kmc> http://wsyntax.com/cs/killer-norco-case/
23:02:12 <kmc> i have 25 TB at home in a much simpler configuration, but not really any higher quality hardware, which has me worried
23:02:39 <kmc> also i don't have ECC RAM so probably some of that 25 TB has random bits flipped
23:02:46 <kmc> it occurred to me that I ought to stop gzipping my backups for this reason
23:02:55 <kmc> or at least, reed-solomon-encode them after i gzip them
23:03:04 <atriq> This is the future
23:03:20 <atriq> kmc, how much does a can of Pepsi cost?
23:05:18 <kmc> i don't know
23:05:21 <kmc> is that a trick question?
23:05:28 <kmc> soda is about $1 no matter how much you buy
23:05:39 <atriq> Wow, a whole dollar?
23:05:48 <atriq> That's like 100 times the number of dollars I have!
23:06:50 <atriq> fizzie, help, I'm in the future
23:07:04 <atriq> I'm far enough into the future that 40TB is feasible
23:07:14 <fizzie> I think you can fix that with time travel.
23:07:22 <atriq> I lost my time machine!
23:08:58 <fizzie> $ df -h|egrep 'Filesys|lustre'
23:08:59 <fizzie> Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
23:08:59 <fizzie> lustre-nfs:/triton/ics 427T 123T 300T 29% /triton/ics
23:09:03 <fizzie> (Okay, that's not on a student budget.)
23:09:38 <kmc> how many physical drives and servers is that
23:10:08 <fizzie> I don't really know; it's some kind of a SAN delivered by a company.
23:11:10 <fizzie> It also manages somehow to be terribly slow when it comes to some tens of thousands of small files. According to docs, it's really optimilized for very large files.
23:12:14 <atriq> When (if) I've got a decent job, in the far off future, imagine how much hard drive I can have!
23:12:27 <fizzie> By "really slow" I mean it took like two hours just to stat(2) 20k files in order to prune a file list; reading through a directory is fast enough, but MATLAB's dir function stats every file to find the size.
23:12:33 <Sgeo_> "If your license plate ends with an even number or 0, you fill up on even days"
23:12:42 <Bike> so what sort of things do you have in 123 terabytes?
23:13:36 <elliott> <fizzie> It also manages somehow to be terribly slow when it comes to some tens of thousands of small files. According to docs, it's really optimilized for very large files.
23:13:50 <atriq> According to Moore's law, in 6 years I'll have 4 terabytes!
23:13:51 <elliott> fizzie: make a filesystem optimised for small files as a file
23:14:21 <fizzie> Bike: "Scientific data", I suppose. It's a cluster shared by the CS, physics, chemistry and such folks. I would assume it mostly runs simulations.
23:14:22 <pikhq_> Bike: 123 terabytes? Clearly, store Blurays raw.
23:14:40 <Bike> of course, of course
23:16:20 <atriq> Saying that, I've got a laptop with 250 GB, an external with 130 GB, an external with 1 TB, and a computer from 2006 and one from 2001 so god knows how much hard drive they have
23:16:25 <fizzie> Just to pick a random job, someone's running "htseq.gencode_Sample_4.sh". I suspect some of the bio-computing folks.
23:16:26 <atriq> This adds up to about 2 TB
23:16:33 <atriq> I feel insignificant
23:17:01 <Bike> you could get a couple terabytes of bioinformatics data from the 'net to make yourself feel sciency
23:18:05 <fizzie> atriq: The cluster has two (I think) nodes with 1 TB of RAM each, in the "hugemem" queue, for applications that need reasonable amounts of RAM.
23:19:06 <atriq> fizzie, across my house there is just over 2 TB of hard drive space. RAM, I've got no idea, about 20 GB, I think
23:19:14 <atriq> Am I living in the past?
23:19:25 <Bike> would you like some lotto numbers?
23:20:19 <fizzie> I don't have much more than maybe a total of 5-6 TB disk at home either.
23:20:24 <kmc> to be fair, nearly anything is terribly slow with lots of small files
23:20:51 <atriq> My place of work probably has less RAM and hard drive than this computer
23:20:53 <kmc> i only have 60 GB disk and 3 GB RAM in my laptop
23:20:56 <fizzie> kmc: Not so slow that it takes *hours* with just 20k files.
23:20:58 <atriq> But that's a charity shop
23:20:58 <kmc> though i just ordered one with a bit more
23:21:03 <kmc> fizzie: ok, that's bad
23:21:31 <kmc> at ksplice we had the need to frequently generate chroots off some fixed template, do something with them, and then throw out the changes
23:21:42 <kmc> initially we used a fancy unioning filesystem
23:21:56 <kmc> but it was much faster to simply store the chroots as .tar.gz, decompress them to a ram disk, and then delete them
23:22:07 <kmc> because that way the only disk IO is a big sequential read
23:24:14 <kmc> http://wondermark.com/884/
23:24:47 <fizzie> Lustre has some kind of a complicated split-to-servers scheme, but it apparently makes initially starting an access on file a slow thing; once it's open, it can read bytes very fast. Sadly, our tools aren't really written with that in mind.
23:25:08 <elliott> kmc: is your startup still classified
23:25:12 <kmc> not exactly
23:25:28 <kmc> we don't have, like, a public page saying what we do
23:25:32 <kmc> but we've been telling various people
23:25:41 <kmc> it's a text chat tool for businesses
23:25:48 <kmc> so in one sense, just glorified IRC in the browser
23:25:53 <kmc> but it has a different user experience from IRC
23:25:59 <elliott> aw i was hoping for something at least 10x more exciting than that
23:26:08 <kmc> there you have it
23:26:14 <atriq> elliott, do you want to do something more exciting, with me?
23:26:21 <fizzie> I heard everyone uses ninchat for that now.
23:26:22 <elliott> like you were working on bombs that exploded into kittens or something
23:26:29 <elliott> atriq: what are we talking here exactly
23:26:29 <atriq> We can make a text chat tool for the MILITARY!
23:26:55 <fizzie> (I haven't heard of anyone in particular actually using ninchat.)
23:28:04 <kmc> huh never heard of ninchat until now
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23:28:58 <elliott> good to know kmc knows his competitors
23:30:01 <kmc> so yeah, it is a pretty different company and product from ksplice
23:30:04 <kmc> but mostly the same people
23:30:06 <kmc> which is interesting
23:30:23 <kmc> what do you mean
23:30:59 <shachaf> Well, I guess I don't actually know most ksplice people.
23:31:36 <kmc> that's okay, i don't know most non-ksplice people
23:32:59 <kmc> the people from "ksplice classic" who are still at oracle are andersk and spang
23:33:05 <kmc> nelhage left but went to stripe
23:33:15 <kmc> he has already implemented at least one EBCDIC-based financial systems protocol
23:34:02 <kmc> beats shoveling coal
23:34:52 <kmc> programmers are like the only people in america who aren't unemployed
23:35:07 <kmc> in fact we are still in inexplicably high demand
23:35:19 <elliott> well that bubble is still going on isn't it
23:35:45 <kmc> plenty of jobs working for disruptive startups who are marketing services for other disruptive startups who are eventually going to disrupt each other all the way to bankruptcy auction
23:36:02 <kmc> elliott: look, if you haven't started a company by the age of 14, you're a failure and should kill yourself
23:36:08 <kmc> paul graham is just telling it like it is
23:37:19 <kmc> YC came to MIT and gave a talk that was like "fuck MIT! drop out and do a startup" and then MIT did a talk that was like "fuck YC, we have our own incubator nobody has ever heard of!"
23:38:07 <elliott> everybody loves capitalism
23:38:08 <kmc> thankfully i did not attend either
23:39:19 <kmc> it's so weird that software startup culture is obsesseed with funding
23:39:28 <kmc> since it's basically the least capital-intensive industry that could possibly exist
23:39:51 <kmc> but i guess getting a fat sack of cash is a nice way to demonstrate your worth that's easier than making a product people want or will pay money for
23:40:19 <elliott> well if you have money you don't need a business model any more
23:41:58 <Bike> I thought getting lots of funding was how it worked during the dotcom bubble too.
23:43:01 <elliott> i would like to go back to the days where every company ended in .com
23:43:09 <elliott> y combinator should be called startup.com
23:43:19 <atriq> British East India Company.com
23:43:28 <KALLISTI> atriq: YES I AM TRAPPED IN FORTRAN HELP
23:43:46 <elliott> atriq: shouldn't that just be britisheastindia.com
23:43:53 <atriq> KALLISTI, if you look to your left you should see a door labelled "COBOL".
23:44:26 <Bike> http://www.theeastindiacompany.com/ So...
23:45:21 <elliott> well they just need to be better at branding clearly
23:45:31 <elliott> what does the east india company even do now
23:45:46 <zzo38> What I do want to do is making up a open source FPGA and sell it, and I want to make sure the OpenCores stuff will run on there at good enough speed without wasting too much energy.
23:45:46 <Bike> food, apparently
23:46:01 <Bike> no word on paramilitaries
23:46:39 <elliott> "When you hear our name you will probably already have a sense of who we are. Deep within the world’s sub-consciousness is an awareness of The East India Company, powerful pictures of who we are. You’ll feel something for us; you’ll have a connection to us, even if you don’t know us."
23:46:46 <elliott> that is pretty much the most sinister opening ever
23:46:59 <Bike> Yeah, I'm not entirely sure if it's satire.
23:47:07 <zzo38> Actually I don't know anything about them; they are wrong.
23:47:15 <Bike> I got the Ullman paper.
23:47:46 <elliott> "It’s not a new beginning,
23:47:46 <elliott> It’s a connection to heritage
23:47:46 <elliott> It’s a continuation of a long tradition
23:47:46 <elliott> It’s always been in our time
23:47:55 <elliott> kind of freaked out by the east india company now
23:47:58 <Bike> But it turns out that being completely naïve about graph theory makes it hard to write programs for it.
23:48:19 <elliott> well wikipedia claims the east india company no longer exists
23:48:22 <elliott> and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company_(disambiguation) is no help
23:50:29 <Bike> http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/883e56f6-9d90-11df-a37c-00144feab49a.html#axzz2BlxbIVOh
23:51:37 <kmc> shachaf: KeithW just reminded me of one of the less obvious advantages of Mosh
23:51:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, you should definitely familiarise yourself with adjacency matrices if you haven't already.
23:51:50 <kmc> which is that, an attacker can terminate a SSH connection by sending a single RST packet
23:51:56 <kmc> but Mosh's transport layer is encrypted-authenticated
23:52:34 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: well I know what those are at least. I just napped through a lot of that part of discrete maths, and haven't written ay actual programs for this stuff before.
23:52:57 <shachaf> kmc: I think we've talked about that advantage of Mosh before.
23:53:04 <shachaf> Or at least that disadvantage of SSH.
23:54:25 * shachaf doesn't know how the log commands work.
23:54:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18986
23:56:23 <shachaf> 2012-09-01.txt:22:51:50: <shachaf> kmc: "For example, an attacker can abort an SSH connection or an HTTPS connection by forging a single TCP Reset packet."
23:56:48 <shachaf> Hah, that's a quote from curvecp.org
00:11:08 <kmc> i wonder what are the consequences of that, besides DoS
00:11:19 <kmc> perhaps it makes traffic analysis or session downgrade attacks easier
00:12:10 <shachaf> Well, as you pointed out, you still need to know the sequence number to send the RST packet.
00:12:43 <kmc> i wonder how long it is before Chromium installs a shim that runs as root and reimplements TCP to their exact preferences using raw sockets
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00:17:14 <kmc> i wonder if people worry about "end-to-end" net neutrality
00:17:31 <kmc> that is, instead of your ISP making certain sites slower, your browser or OS could do so
00:17:51 <kmc> it's already the case that Chrome performs better and is more secure when accessing Google sites, not for particularly nefarious reasons
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00:27:43 <Vorpal> <kmc> it's already the case that Chrome performs better and is more secure when accessing Google sites, not for particularly nefarious reasons <-- or anything else that offers SPDY
00:27:50 <Vorpal> which is starting to appear
00:28:14 <Vorpal> I guess the list of hard coded certificates won't be available to most other sites though
00:28:44 <Vorpal> I think some big non-google sites have that protection as well, like paypal
00:29:30 <kmc> also some vanity domains of the people who worked on the feature at google :3
00:29:45 <kmc> i think there is a process for third parties to get included
00:29:52 <kmc> in the HSTS preload if not the hardcoded certs
00:30:21 <kmc> i mean Chromium is open source right ;)
00:30:45 <Vorpal> the vast majority will be using Chrome not Chromium, just saying
00:31:34 <kmc> doesn't chrome pull from the open source project though
00:32:03 <Vorpal> but they can make their own modifications should they wish to
00:32:27 <kmc> don't think so
00:32:44 <Vorpal> shachaf, what is libpdf.so?
00:32:48 <Vorpal> something from poppler?
00:32:55 <shachaf> A plugin from Chrome to view PDFs in-browser.
00:33:08 <shachaf> I used to use it but it crashes Chromium now.
00:33:32 <kmc> "Pop a Poppler in your mouth when you come to Fishy Joe's / What they're made of is a mystery, where they come from no-one knows"
00:33:47 <Vorpal> that explains the difference in behaviour between Windows and Linux chrom(e|ium) PDF behaviour
00:34:03 <kmc> "You can pick 'em you can lick 'em you can chew 'em you can stick 'em / If you promise not to sue us you can shove one up your nose."
00:34:16 <shachaf> Vorpal: Chrome has the PDF viewer on every platform now, I think.
00:34:36 <Vorpal> shachaf, I thought it was just some compile time option that was off, or the version that was different
00:34:43 <Vorpal> but I guess that was the cause then
00:35:03 <shachaf> Having a PDF viewer in the browser is pretty great. :-(
00:35:50 <Vorpal> shachaf, eh, making evince or whatever load takes like 2 seconds
00:36:18 <shachaf> Vorpal: What if you're "one of those people" who has hundreds of tabs open?
00:36:20 <Vorpal> same for the PDF app I use on windows, which I forgot the name of. It isn't adobe reader
00:36:22 <shachaf> And half of them are PDFs.
00:36:42 <Vorpal> <shachaf> Vorpal: What if you're "one of those people" who has hundreds of tabs open? <-- I used to be one of those, nowdays I'm down to maybe 50
00:36:48 <Vorpal> <shachaf> And half of them are PDFs. <-- lol what
00:36:53 <zzo38> Why do you need so many tabs?
00:37:31 <Vorpal> I'll let shachaf explain that
00:37:36 <Vorpal> I need to sleep, good night
00:37:43 <shachaf> I'll let Vorpal explain that.
00:38:08 <zzo38> No! He needs to sleeps, good night.
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00:40:45 <shachaf> Needs For Sleeps III: Sweets Dreams
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01:08:23 <zzo38> I also intend to make up a new computer, as much hardware open source as possible and all built-in software open source, as much simplify as possible, includes a DVD with many games, a complete manual (including pinouts, schematics, detail of built-in software, licenses, jumpers, BIOS calls, instruction set, etc)
01:08:45 <zzo38> Often I find computers today their manual is incomplete.
01:11:31 <zzo38> And they contain mistakes too
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01:59:36 <Bike> you could just ping, you know.
02:00:40 <zzo38> It depend what you are trying to check; sometimes I use PING command to the server to check connection to server. To check client connection, is different.
02:01:19 <Sgeo_> I wasn't sure about @ping
02:03:14 <zzo38> Do you know if there is any MML compiler for Csound?
02:05:34 <Sgeo_> http://blog.ezyang.com/2012/11/plan-9-mounts-and-dependency-injection/
02:05:34 <Sgeo_> This makes me want to use Plan 9
02:08:33 <Sgeo_> What time did I say that I want to use Plan 9?
02:08:42 <Sgeo_> And I do have some use cases for the sort of thing that that article talks about
02:12:34 <Sgeo_> XChat says my lag is 12.4 seconds, but I saw that almost instantly
02:15:02 <Sgeo_> Taking an IRC bot and making it talk on a different protocol without writing a fake IRC server.
02:15:49 <Bike> why on earth would writing a fake server be the solution there
02:16:01 <elliott> have you actually written an irc bot
02:16:20 <Sgeo_> But I'm thinking more of bots whose code I am too lazy to change
02:16:59 <elliott> do those bots run on plan 9
02:17:36 <Sgeo_> Is there a Tcl implementation that runs on Plan 9? Is there a Python implementation that runs on Plan 9?
02:17:55 <Sgeo_> Actually, hmm, I think the Tcl bot uses some library that uses native code, for XML stuff :(
02:18:39 <Bike> more to the point, does the socket stuff in the irc library work on plan 9 and bla bla bla bla
02:18:41 <elliott> i really dont see how youd be able to use an existing program and do those things
02:18:47 <elliott> youd need an actual file to override
02:18:52 <elliott> so itd have to do networking plan 9-style
02:18:56 <elliott> which a compatibility layer... wouldnt
02:19:40 <Sgeo_> Wouldn't the networking API of a Plan 9 implementation of those languages do Plan 9 style networking when the application does what it thinks are normal networking calls?
02:19:43 <Bike> Maybe it would be easier to write an x86/OS emulator that would automatically translate into appopriate protocol thingamajiggers.
02:19:56 <elliott> well if it does networking plan 9 style
02:20:04 <elliott> then i'm pretty sure you'd have to actually supply the whole dial() device thing
02:20:13 <elliott> i forget how it actually works though
02:20:20 <elliott> but i dont really see how this is viable with any kind of compatibility layer
02:20:31 <elliott> that said i approve of use of plan 9
02:21:31 <Sgeo_> Is Inferno a sort of successor?
02:22:01 <Sgeo_> Less than a minute later. I'm impressed.
02:22:40 <kmc> plan 9 is still based on the idea that C is the end-all of programming languages and the byte is the most perfect data structure, right?
02:22:43 <kmc> i guess inferno is not
02:24:23 <Sgeo_> Am I going to see Plan 9-style beauty by looking at Inferno, is my question I guess
02:26:14 <elliott> inferno is like plan 9 but in a vm but weird and there's limbo and stuff
02:26:20 <elliott> also its deader than plan 9 afaik
02:26:28 <elliott> since some people actually use plan 9 and i dont think anyone really uses inferno
02:26:32 <elliott> so i dont know why youd look at it
02:26:57 <elliott> kmc: it takes the directory tree as the most perfect data structure moreso, also its C language is better than standard C
02:27:02 <elliott> kmc: but yes that is its main problem
02:27:07 <elliott> kmc: oh it also has excellent Unicode support obviously
02:30:18 <Sgeo_> @ping at 12:29PM my time.
02:30:28 <Sgeo_> That was shockingly fast
02:32:14 <Sgeo_> If it takes a while for there to be a connection
02:32:22 <Sgeo_> And it sends all my line squickly
02:32:30 <Sgeo_> I thought I would look like a really fast typer
02:35:09 <kmc> how is its C better than standard C
02:35:55 <elliott> i forget all the changes but all the ones it does have are good changes
02:36:14 <elliott> like its IO library isn't nearly as dumb
02:36:26 <elliott> its linking system is much better (no -l at the command-line)
02:36:32 <elliott> it has the nice struct inclusion thing go has
02:36:38 <elliott> (and GNU C, as an extension nobody uses)
02:37:01 <elliott> also it does cross-compilation much much better
02:37:05 <elliott> plan 9 has excellent cross-architecture support
02:37:12 <elliott> since it was built to handle distributed systems that used multiple architectures
02:37:27 <elliott> and of course it has actual unicode support
02:37:35 <elliott> (BMP only because it predates >16-bit Unicode, unfortunately)
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02:41:55 <kmc> which struct inclusion?
02:44:14 <elliott> struct foo { struct bar; ... }
02:44:22 <elliott> if bar has element x you can do f.x where struct foo f;
02:44:33 <elliott> it's like "inheritance" but it's actually composition
02:44:47 <Bike> what if you want a struct that actually has a struct as an element?
02:44:48 <kmc> and this just happens automatically in gnu c?
02:44:49 <elliott> (the -l removal thing is done by having pragmas in the header files that specify what library to link with fwiw)
02:44:54 <elliott> Bike: then you do struct bar y;
02:45:08 <elliott> kmc: no it just supports the same syntax (iirc, maybe it is actually different) if you enable the extension with a flag
02:45:34 <kmc> that's pretty gross yet enjoyable, like <insert sexual metaphor here>
02:45:50 <kmc> most gnu c extensions don't require a flag beyond -std=gnu99 or whatever, which is default
02:46:47 <elliott> http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/programming/c_programming_in_plan_9 is a decent introduction to Plan 9 C
02:47:07 <elliott> though a practical one rather than one that explains why Plan 9's programming environment feels so well-designed
02:47:31 <elliott> oh right plan 9 also has a networking library that doesn't make me want to die
02:47:34 <elliott> which is a nice improvement over BSD sockets
02:47:36 <elliott> which does make me want to die
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02:52:03 <kmc> an important distinction
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02:57:38 <zzo38> If you want to die, then you should first check if you are sure, and if you are really sure then die.
02:57:51 <kmc> words to live by
02:57:59 <kmc> but can they be expressed in flowchart form
02:58:12 <shachaf> zzo38: What if you checked and found out that you're sure, but then didn't check that you're sure you're sure?
02:59:14 <zzo38> shachaf: Then too bad you have to learn to try again, that is why you should wait a while after you sleep then you can think of that and try again
03:01:12 <madbr> argh, I'm obsessed by instruction set design
03:02:17 <zzo38> What instruction sets do you design?
03:04:52 <madbr> usually they're in the family of early RISCs
03:05:06 <madbr> avoiding out of order execution basically
03:05:41 <madbr> but trying to avoid ending up with something impossible to pipeline like the 6502
03:06:09 <zzo38> Is the ARM2 instruction set OK?
03:06:32 <madbr> often the results look kinda like the ARM instruction set yes
03:08:33 <zzo38> Have you send anything to Famicompo Mini vol.9? I have send some, but I won't tell you which one.
03:09:19 <zzo38> One instruction set I want to have is some instruction set which the Checkout esolang compile into easily and have a hardware implementation (in some hardware description language)
03:09:25 <madbr> nah, this time around I didn't care enough and didn't make anything
03:10:19 <zzo38> Did you download it?
03:10:31 <madbr> didn't really listen to it
03:11:36 <Bike> What's Famicompo?
03:11:51 <madbr> bike: NSF song competition
03:11:52 <zzo38> Bike: Music contest involving .NSF format
03:12:10 <madbr> NSF is music ripped from NES games
03:12:22 <zzo38> You can use any number of expansions (including multiple expansions) or no expansions.
03:12:27 <madbr> playing it actually involves running a small NES emulator
03:13:11 <zzo38> Not always is ripped you can make up your own music using various programs such as ppMCK and FamiTracker.
03:13:44 <madbr> yeah for Famicompo you make your own song
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03:14:27 <madbr> you can actually play the songs from famicompo if you have a powerpak cart... or at least, the ones that don't use expansions
03:14:59 <zzo38> I always use ppMCK (although I have made various improvements to ppMCK, so now it has track questioning commands, subroutines, tail recursion, text replacement macros, custom tuning, and various other things)
03:15:01 <madbr> and fit in the powerpak (max 256k data I think)
03:15:05 <Bike> I was confused by all the talk of instruction sets.
03:15:43 <madbr> instruction set design is hard :o
03:16:01 <zzo38> I have tried in before to design instruction set.
03:16:10 <Bike> well yes, but is that related to chiptuning, or what
03:16:12 <zzo38> I have designed some instruction sets for virtual machines, though.
03:16:41 <madbr> not instruction sets :D
03:18:15 <zzo38> Have you used some effect with multi channels with the same notes but with different delay, duty, octave, etc?
03:25:13 <zzo38> Such as in "ctfinal" the M and N channels play the same notes but with a different delay, duty, volume, and octave; same with a and channels, and the C and O channels play the same notes with no delay but they have a different waveform, and uses detune, etc
03:26:52 <zzo38> So I have set up effect at the start like M @@0@v1 and N @@1@v2r16K12 and then when the notes are played like MN l4o4 ce-gc' ^1 b-2gb- ^c'^2 <a->ce-a- ^1 g2f^8a-8 gfe-d it will use effects that are set.
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03:28:11 <zzo38> Although you said you used Impulse Tracker? So you would have to program the effects differently
03:29:50 <zzo38> You would have to write them manually I guess, or use copy/paste
03:48:05 <kmc> every time flash plugin crashes, take a shot
03:49:52 <madbr> I often use fake delay and detuning and layering yes
03:50:25 <madbr> I use copy/paste a lot
03:59:06 <elliott> http://www.salon.com/2012/11/09/white_house_obama_will_veto_any_bill_extending_tax_cuts_for_those_making_more_than_250k/singleton/ journalism
03:59:18 <elliott> i like how it is by <empty string>
04:00:40 <zzo38> How can you program NSF effects in Impulse Tracker anyways?
04:00:51 <Bike> elliott: guess the wire doesn't have much capacity
04:01:50 <madbr> zzo: depends on the converter
04:01:59 <madbr> there are like 3 different converters
04:03:00 <madbr> s3m2nsf is the simples
04:03:25 <madbr> only supports VRC6, no special macros
04:03:38 <madbr> it simply plays the s3m with the NES waveforms as the samples
04:04:11 <madbr> for some freak reason, s3m note frequencies and NES ones are the same
04:06:02 <zzo38> But wouldn't you still have to program in the duty of square waves?
04:06:45 <madbr> it simply uses instrument 1,2,3,4 as duties 12%,25%,50%,75%
04:07:18 <zzo38> OK, although VRC6 supports different duty than 2A03 (and VRC6 also lacks 75% duty)
04:07:19 <madbr> and 5 as triangle wave, 6 noise, 7 short noise, 8+ dpcm
04:07:43 <madbr> zzo: oh yeah forgot about those
04:08:10 <madbr> I can't remember how it maps the VRC6 duties but it's just instrument numbers too
04:09:17 <madbr> the second converter is it2nsf and it supports a lot more stuff
04:09:25 <madbr> essentially all expansions
04:09:45 <madbr> (you have to enter them in the song comments and it parses that)
04:10:17 <madbr> some IT stuff like note off commands
04:11:04 <madbr> third converter is supernsf which is the one that does software mixing for multichannel PCM
04:15:00 <zzo38> Can it use the MMC5 8-bit PCM?
04:16:10 <zzo38> The MMC5 8-bit PCM is the only feature which ppMCK does not support.
04:16:23 <madbr> supernsf uses the same hw as the DPCM
04:16:28 <madbr> it just writes the value
04:16:37 <zzo38> O, so it uses 7-bit PCM, then.
04:22:52 <zzo38> Have you used ppMCK or any other programs to write a .NSF music other than the three you mentioned?
04:26:13 <zzo38> What I would like to have is program to compile MML into MOD/S3M/IT modules; do you know of any such software?
04:26:48 <elliott> kmc: btw plan 9's rc shell is also much better than any unix shell I know of
04:27:00 <elliott> (in terms of the language, not the interactive features, of which it has none; that's all in the terminal in plan 9)
04:27:14 <madbr> no I just use IT + converter
04:27:34 <madbr> I've never tried MML actually
04:29:36 <zzo38> It might be difficult to do because you may have various features in MML which the module formats does not support, including desynchronized loops and having multiple effects running simultaneously and subroutines and various other things
04:29:51 <zzo38> I have used Impulse Tracker and ModPlug Tracker, but I find MML is much better.
04:30:05 <zzo38> Some people don't; and that is OK you can use what you prefer.
04:31:31 <zzo38> Which expansion audio have you used in .NSF?
04:31:32 <madbr> yeah but most of these things are very rare in music
04:32:19 <madbr> you'd think the limit of having only one effect blocks many things but in real life usage it's really not that bad at all
04:32:44 <madbr> most effects are either used on note on or after note on and are more or less mutually exclusive
04:33:07 <madbr> desynchronized loops in not useful in music
04:33:22 <madbr> subroutines I just do with copy paste
04:34:33 <zzo38> Well, I do sometimes have some channels playing a much shorter loop than others
04:35:00 <zzo38> If it is an exact multiple, it could easily be compiled into a format that does not support that, by automatically making as many copies as needed
04:40:50 <madbr> so of course it's all going to be powers of 2
04:41:31 <zzo38> Although the time signature could be 3/4 or something else like that
04:44:05 <madbr> mostly it's much easier to listen to your song as you make it in the tracker
04:45:31 <madbr> that a much larger advantage that anything you'd win from subroutine stuff
04:45:43 <zzo38> Maybe to you it is.
04:46:04 <madbr> it's the different between music and programming :D
04:46:49 <madbr> it's better to copy paste a section of music
04:46:49 <zzo38> But even deaf people can write music.
04:47:32 <madbr> than to have multiple links to one piece of data
04:47:47 <madbr> because if you copy paste it's much easier to modify it
04:47:54 <madbr> without changing the other copies
04:49:25 <madbr> and that's something you want to do a LOT
04:49:42 <madbr> variation is the key
04:49:52 <zzo38> To you it is. To me, well, sometimes I want to make a copy with variation, but other times I don't want.
04:50:09 <madbr> if you don't want variation you just copy paste
04:50:16 <zzo38> But especially if it is a multi-channel effect I don't want to have to change everything in all channels
04:50:42 <madbr> mhm, in that case you're right
04:51:34 <zzo38> Of course in MML you can still copy/paste too (and use any other functions your text editor has, such as regular expressions), and I use that too.
04:52:09 <zzo38> I just find it easier to write music using MML, although this is not the case for everyone.
04:52:59 <madbr> well, that's because you're a programmer
04:54:49 <zzo38> Even things specific to music such as to indicate if I want D sharp or E flat (which are the same note, but written differently), or even double sharp possibly, or to change ostinato, including short drum loops, to just write it once and have it loop
04:55:48 <zzo38> And comments; sometimes I want to keep track of what chords I want and so on
04:58:13 <madbr> why would you want to use a double sharp
04:58:41 <zzo38> It is rare, but there are some cases in which such thing would be used.
04:59:36 <zzo38> Another thing which is rare but sometimes used is to change the time signature in different parts of the music, and what is even more rare is for the right hand and left hand to have different time signatures.
05:00:07 <zzo38> madbr: One case is if your key signature has sharps, and you want to raise one of those notes in one case, you would use a double sharp.
05:03:24 <madbr> that's really only important in staff notation
05:03:39 <madbr> and just really when it's the most readable notation, which is very rare
05:06:01 <zzo38> Well, at least I find it easier to write music when keeping track of things such as this.
05:06:25 <madbr> that's because you're a programmer
05:06:59 <madbr> when you're punching in notes for the sound it doesn't matter if your Gm chord is G A# D
05:07:27 <zzo38> No, it is because I know how to write music.
05:07:45 <zzo38> I don't just make up notes at random to see if it sound right.
05:08:22 <zzo38> I would think of the notes I want and then put them in.
05:08:37 <zzo38> Like anyone who write music would do.
05:08:42 <madbr> what I do is that I think of notes
05:08:54 <madbr> if I like it, keep
05:09:10 <madbr> if I don't like it, try to see if I can make it better
05:09:34 <madbr> also it's easy to get "happy accidents"
05:09:43 <madbr> which you'll want to keep and elaborate on ofc
05:10:59 <madbr> also it helps when you try 2 or 3 voicings for a chord
05:11:03 <madbr> and chose the best one
05:13:00 <zzo38> I would just think of if it is OK or not; there is no need to try it until after it is written.
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05:14:07 <madbr> do you play your stuff on a keyboard as you compose it?
05:14:11 <zzo38> And some composers are deaf they cannot listen to it at all. However, they are much better composers than I am anyways.
05:14:15 <madbr> or sing to yourself?
05:14:22 <zzo38> madbr: Sometimes, but usually I just think of it.
05:14:34 <madbr> there's beethoven but that was a special case
05:15:13 <zzo38> I do have a piano but usually (not always) I find it sufficient to think of it, and using the classical musical theory.
05:16:31 <madbr> theory won't tell you if a melody works or not
05:16:33 <zzo38> It can often be easier when written down, though, especially the chords.
05:17:05 <zzo38> madbr: Yes, I know, but if I can think of the melody then I could know the melody.
05:17:09 <madbr> or if a given progression of chord voicings don't work even tho they're correct in theory
05:18:59 <zzo38> Yes, with chord voicings I do sometimes find it necessary to try it, although not always; the chords I may play on piano, although I may write them down on a normal musical notation; melody I can usually just think of and write using MML.
05:19:52 <zzo38> But like I said not always, so even when writing the chords directly using MML I will write comments so that I know what chord I want instead of having to read the notes (even when writing on paper, I write the chord symbols so I know what chords I want; this is same idea)
05:21:11 <zzo38> But usually I will know that I want this voice to go up and down, and that voice to go down and up, and then work the chords around that.
05:22:55 <zzo38> So the voices may be written like separate melody or accompaniment
05:24:32 <zzo38> I only know the classical music theory, and it works for me, although I usually don't need any theory to know if the melody is good.
05:25:08 <madbr> do you know jazz theory?
05:25:21 <zzo38> No, I don't know jazz
05:28:34 <zzo38> My sister studied both classical and jazz
05:36:35 <madbr> also if you don't listen to your stuff as you compose it, how do you know when to follow the rules and when not to? :D
05:37:45 <zzo38> I don't know how I know, somehow I usually know, though; some other composers do too and I don't know how they know either.
05:38:38 <madbr> and how do you mix your nsf music?
05:39:23 <madbr> you do multiple conversions adjusting stuff each time?
05:41:09 <zzo38> If I do something I realize I didn't like, then yes I will adjust something each time, but usually I don't need unless I made a mistake. Usually the first thing I would do is to write only a few bars to figure out the effects I want, and then I know what effects and the rest of the music I can write all at once since I can think of that.
05:45:54 <zzo38> Famicompo Mini vol.7 has a few files in original section using multiple expansions, but in vol.9 there is only one file in original section which uses multiple expansions.
05:46:22 <zzo38> Which expansions have you used?
05:47:49 <zzo38> I did write a program to test VRC7 patches, although I wrote it a while ago before I know really how it works, so it is very unlikely to work on a real hardware and runs only on an emulator, but it is good enough for my use.
05:48:21 <zzo38> Although sometimes there is no need and I just know if I want a pure sine wave it is easy and it is not necessary to test it at first.
05:48:26 <madbr> I would probably have done the patches on adlib tracker 2 (OPL3)
05:48:34 <madbr> and translated them
05:48:57 <madbr> but I used only default patches
05:50:24 <zzo38> I do not think it has all features of OPL3, so I don't expect that to work.
05:50:37 <madbr> well, using only the subset that works ofc
05:52:37 <zzo38> I made a .NES file to test the VRC7 patches instead (it test both the built-in and custom patches), although what you suggest might work too.
05:53:36 <zzo38> Have you used VRC6 and VRC7 together?
05:55:03 <madbr> the mix of regular nes channels and vrc7 is already crazy enough :D
05:55:49 <madbr> I should write more opl3 music
05:56:03 <madbr> there's not enough opl3 specific music (using custom patches etc)
05:56:32 <zzo38> Is there Csound program to emulate OPL3?
05:57:16 <madbr> there's an OPL3 emulation in the MAME source code
05:58:02 <madbr> I think some of the features are wrong but very few people used those so in actual use (ie games on dosbox) it works
05:58:41 <zzo38> But Csound has its own programming language for writing music.
05:59:17 <madbr> yes that's why I don't use Csound
06:01:08 <zzo38> The orchestra format is OK, but the score format seem wouldn't be very good to write music and MML would be better; but, Csound only support the numeric score. (A program could be written to convert MML to numeric score, and I might write such a program.)
06:02:05 <madbr> tbh you should learn to use something like ableton
06:02:11 <zzo38> But I do like the Csound orchestra format.
06:02:20 <madbr> or reaper or cubase or fruity loops
06:02:41 <madbr> programs that are designed for, you know, composing music
06:02:45 <zzo38> I have used some of those and I find they don't help.
06:03:30 <zzo38> Especially if you want to write your own instrument program; for this, I find Csound is very good and I have experimented with some instrument sounds using Csound.
06:05:29 <madbr> I'd rather use something like synthedit for designing instruments
06:06:07 <madbr> or use C++ and make a nice tight VST that other ppl can use too
06:09:28 <madbr> for me csound is in the same category as max/msp and puredata and supercollider and whatever else
06:09:49 <madbr> toys until someone can demonstrate a serious musical use
06:10:27 <elliott> er max/msp is used to make actual music that people buy
06:11:30 <madbr> link to a song that is actual music that people buy and that uses max/msp
06:11:46 <monqy> uh oh, elliott ! hope you know your music
06:11:54 <elliott> is this a trick question where you define "actual music" as "not whatever i linked to"
06:12:19 <elliott> right off the top of my head i know autechre use max extensively for example
06:12:38 <madbr> aha yeah ok that definitely counts
06:12:52 <monqy> max costs money so probably people use it for actual things???
06:12:59 <monqy> bad "roi" otherwise
06:13:28 <Bike> akira yamaoka uses max, he scores video games and crap.
06:13:28 <madbr> monqy: it's not about the money
06:13:54 <monqy> you can't buy roi with happiness
06:13:58 <monqy> return on investment
06:14:06 <madbr> you mean money roi or usage roi?
06:14:24 <zzo38> I don't like VST, although Csound can be compiled with support for VST (in both directions) if you need it. Csound can also load MIDI sequences if that would help you too.
06:14:42 <madbr> what's wrong with vst?
06:15:52 <zzo38> It has restrictive licensing, is Windows only, requires a GUI to use, and some others. Nevertheless Csound can use VST if it is helpful to do so.
06:16:53 <madbr> also it's like the least stupid of the plugin APIs
06:17:15 <madbr> AU is like 10 times more restrictive, RTAS like 100 times
06:17:33 <madbr> also it does not require a GUI
06:18:06 <madbr> making GUI-less VSTs is actually really easy
06:18:16 <madbr> easier than with a gui ofc
06:18:37 <zzo38> Well yes but some VSTs requires GUI.
06:18:48 <madbr> what's wrong with that
06:19:45 <zzo38> Nothing much, but still, I think Csound is much better (actually Csound can use GUI too)
06:20:18 <zzo38> Still sometimes some things can be difficult to do when a GUI is required.
06:21:13 <zzo38> Does VST require a different program for Windows and Macintosh computers?
06:22:03 <madbr> haven't tried compiling VSTs on macos
06:22:10 <madbr> so I dunno how different
06:22:42 <madbr> presumably you don't need too much source changes and it might all be handled in the VST header stuff
06:23:15 <madbr> (with preprocessors)
06:23:51 <zzo38> Well, still you need to compile it separately on the other computer, which is not always required with Csound and Pure Data and whatever (although you still do need to if you are using native code, although probably no source changes will be needed, at least with Csound and no GUI, I think)
06:25:46 <zzo38> I still find Csound is a good way to write instrument sounds. Yet if you need VST, you can use that with Csound too.
06:27:00 <madbr> Csound makes sense for generating samples that you'll load up in a more practical composition tool imho
06:27:41 <zzo38> Well, that won't work so well if you need parameters, though. But if you don't need parameters, that works.
06:28:27 <madbr> can you load csound as a vst?
06:28:32 <zzo38> madbr: Yes you can.
06:29:14 <madbr> yeah ok in that case it's potentially useful
06:29:14 <zzo38> And if you do that then you can use parameters too.
06:29:50 <zzo38> Csound can also load MIDI files in case you use a MIDI program (or external MIDI instrument) to write the music.
06:30:09 <madbr> no that's not what you want to do
06:30:18 <madbr> you want to pipe your midi into the VST
06:30:38 <madbr> from your host sequencer, real time
06:31:02 <zzo38> Csound can do that too, whether or not you use VST.
06:33:20 <zzo38> There are also some front-ends available for Csound.
06:34:00 <madbr> I'm not sold on the idea of front-ends
06:34:37 <madbr> dunno for sound programs but for emulators, the ones that use front-ends are the worst
06:35:05 <madbr> much better to have the gui and emu code as one program
06:36:49 <madbr> trying to locate a csound DLL I could load
06:37:51 <zzo38> I don't use any of the front-ends myself, but some day I may write a program to compile MML to Csound numeric score, to write music with it, as the numeric score format seems a terrible way to write any music (although some people have written music this way).
06:38:09 <zzo38> madbr: Yes I think there is DLL the documentation should mention it I think.
06:38:37 <zzo38> But I think for VST, you need to have VST support compiled in; I don't think VST support is compiled in by default, for some reason I don't know.
06:38:51 <madbr> I don't want to compile shit
06:38:57 <madbr> I want a DLL I can play with
06:39:27 <zzo38> Maybe you can download the DLL for VST separately and it will work; I haven't checked. But the documentation does say you can use VST both ways.
06:42:15 <zzo38> It says: CsoundVST is a multi-function front end for Csound, based on the Csound API. CsoundVST runs as a stand-alone graphical user interface to Csound, and it also runs as a VST instrument or effect plugin in VST hosts such as Cubase with the same user interface. CsoundVST is part of the main csound source tree, but is not included in standard distributions, due to licensing limitations of Steinberg's VST SDK.
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06:52:12 <zzo38> It seems that CsoundVST binaries are not available just because SourceForge does not allow it; you may be able to download it from elsewhere or to compile it yourself and host it somewhere, or whatever.
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07:08:40 <zzo38> But even if you want to load live MIDI data from one program to another, you can use the MIDI Yoke driver which allows this.
07:12:15 <madbr> no I want to avoid that kind of hacks
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08:16:50 <impomatic> zzo38: is your Forth adventure system still online somewhere?
08:19:27 <zzo38> impomatic: I don't think so.
08:20:08 <zzo38> A few things are broken and don't work properly, although I have it on my computer and if you want you can get it and correct these problems.
08:30:59 <impomatic> Mostly I wanted to see how it's done? :-)
08:33:17 <zzo38> The program is also badly written, although I can post it here: http://sprunge.us/RUiH
08:34:12 <shachaf> I’ve written some very ugly Haskell code that creates a vector using destructive updates. It is in fact an imperative algorithm, not a functional one. When the initialization is over the vector is frozen using unsafeFreeze. I wrote my code using read and write functions, tested it using QuickCheck and when the tests passed I switched to unsafeRead and unsafeWrite to make my program faster. Some time later I started getting random segfaults ...
08:34:18 <shachaf> ... when running my tests. This never happened before in any of my Haskell programs so I almost panicked. At first I didn’t had a slightest idea how to even approach this problem. I suspected that this might even be a bug in GHC.
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08:49:03 <Jafet> This is why haskell programmers don't write tests, you know
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09:08:04 <ion> I take it you tested the changed version with QuickCheck, too?
09:16:22 <Deewiant> (source: http://ics.p.lodz.pl/~stolarek/blog/2012/11/how-to-shoot-yourself-in-the-foot-with-haskell/ )
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09:54:11 <fizzie> "The Norwegian convicted of the massacre of 77 people last year has said he is being held in "inhumane" conditions.
09:54:14 <fizzie> Anders Behring Breivik complained in a letter to the prison service that his coffee is served cold, he does not have enough butter for his bread, and he is not allowed moisturiser."
09:54:20 <fizzie> Sounds quite terrible indeed.
09:54:45 <fizzie> Also his cell is "poorly decorated and has no view".
09:55:19 <fizzie> These are possibly things to keep in mind next time you feel like killing 77 people; you might end up in a place where the coffee is often cold.
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13:03:20 <ais523> "You have received 87 new messages"
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15:41:00 <Phantom_Hoover> hey guys should i get the prison architect alpha or wait
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17:59:28 <kmc> "The Best Groupon Deal Ever: 86.2% Off On GRPN at NASDAQ"
18:07:56 <atriq> Advice: writing a library in Haskell for interfacing with Tumblr is NOT a productive use of time.
18:08:02 <atriq> Although it can prove educational.
18:08:27 <Bike> what's the lesson, apis for web 3.0 services suck?
18:09:40 <atriq> More "these are some good http libraries for Haskell"
18:10:00 <atriq> "here's how to stop them redirecting on a 301 error"
18:10:40 <Bike> 301 isn't an error.
18:11:41 <atriq> It caused errors :(
18:12:54 <Bike> It means that a page has moved. an http client is supposed to request the page moved to to finish the request.
18:13:22 <atriq> Not when it's used in the Tumblr API, it isn't
18:13:59 <Bike> which brings us back to my proposed lesson.
18:14:07 <atriq> It means "Here's some info about the image, but look! The image is actually here!"
18:14:10 <Bike> What's it mean in tumblr?
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18:56:43 <atriq> There is over 24 hours of Homestuck music
18:57:46 <atriq> I make it about 26 hours
19:00:05 <atriq> For a silly webcomic only 3 years old, that's a lot
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19:00:13 <atriq> In fact, for a webcomic that's a lot
19:00:18 <atriq> In fact in fact, that's a lot
19:02:34 <atriq> The superlative doesn't need narrowing
19:03:28 <olsner> oh, according to QI, horses are the deadliest animals in australia
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20:23:02 * pikhq_ watches the new My Little Pony
20:23:13 <atriq> I'm blaming Gregor for this.
20:23:32 <pikhq_> Actually, it's more the fault of meatspace people.
20:23:35 <atriq> Now, if you excuse me, I've got some Adventure Time to be watching.
20:25:06 <Gregor> pikhq_: SPOILARZ: They all die.
20:25:18 <pikhq_> And suddenly, an 11 episode funeral!
20:33:37 <pikhq_> It's weird, but I am a *lot* more comfortable watching MLP now that I came ultra-mega-hyper-out.
20:34:01 <pikhq_> "Lawl, that's gay" "Yup, I like cock so much I'm dating a woman with one. Problem? *trollface*"
20:34:53 <Jafet> Are you implying FIM isn't for heterosexual men
20:35:17 <pikhq_> No, just that I had slight latent fears of being accused of being gay.
20:35:30 <pikhq_> In spite of actually not being heterosexual.
20:36:13 <pikhq_> Sorry, I've just had rough experiences with people IRL being dicks, and not in the sense that I like. :P
20:36:21 <atriq> Is coming ultra-mega-hyper-out much different from coming regular-plain-ol'-out?
20:36:49 <pikhq_> atriq: Yes, it's about 3 times as much outness.
20:36:54 <Bike> it means pkhq is dating a transsexual pony, apparently
20:37:17 <atriq> I imagine it involves screaming unto the heaven while volcanoes erupt and cities crumble
20:37:39 <pikhq_> But I managed to inform people that I'm bisexual atheist dating a trans woman, not heterosexual Christian single.
20:38:30 <pikhq_> (the last, I would've just neglected to mention the trans bit, and it would've been merely twice-out or such, except it's a bit hard to be *discrete* when she's only started working on her voice.)
20:43:03 <soundnfury> pikhq_: you mean "discreet", not "discrete"
20:43:18 <soundnfury> unless you're trying to say that her voice forces you to be continuous ;)
20:43:38 <pikhq_> Sorry, I usually use the math word, so I sometimes slip up when using the "normal" word. :)
20:44:16 <soundnfury> "Your voice is so bad, it makes me thrice differentiable!"
20:47:26 <pikhq_> Also, not so much "bad" as it is "it's very much male".
20:47:42 <pikhq_> Whiich is a dead giveaway, isn't it?
20:49:53 <pikhq_> I don't know many cis women who speak in a baritone.
20:51:27 <Gregor> As a man with long hair, I can assure you that people are more stupid than you can possibly imagine.
20:51:53 <Gregor> "Uhhh, ma'am?" "I'm at a urinal, you FUCKING IMBECILE"
20:52:06 <pikhq_> Ah, right, I *have* experienced that.
20:52:15 * pikhq_ is not a man with long hair, but was for several years
20:52:34 <pikhq_> Was awesome turning around.
20:52:46 <pikhq_> "Uh, ma'am?" *turns around* "Ah, sorry."
20:52:54 <pikhq_> I also had an epic beard for the latter half of that.
20:53:13 <Gregor> I have... a scruffy goatee. And it's kinda generous to call it a goatee X-D
20:55:19 <pikhq_> Currently, I've got a maybe a couple weeks' growth full beard.
20:55:47 <Gregor> My scruffy goatee is several month's growth full beard.
20:56:12 <pikhq_> Several month's growth on me is a UNIX beard.
20:56:38 <coppro> several months growth on me is a light fuzz
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21:02:09 <pikhq_> coppro: Have you considered being more manly?
21:03:37 <Gregor> Several months growth for me is a light fuzz on the upper lip.
21:03:44 <Gregor> But a scruffy goatee on the chin.
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21:22:17 <fizzie> I've only been mistaken as a lady (from behind) a few rare times. Once at a beach by a drunken man, that was probably the most memorable of them.
21:22:40 <pikhq_> It's pretty rare if you're tall.
21:22:47 <pikhq_> There's not that many 6' women walking around.
21:23:08 <pikhq_> I think I more commonly was mistaken for a grad student.
21:24:14 <pikhq_> Which was funny. "No, no, I'm a freshman."
21:24:29 <fizzie> I'm not terribly tall, I think 180.5 cm was the official measurement at some routine health checkup last. I suppose that's like 5'11".
21:24:49 <pikhq_> For a man, that's slightly above average. For a woman, that's rather tall.
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21:26:54 <fizzie> My wife's brother (one of them) and father are something like 6'3" or more; she's probably less than an inch shorter than me. They've certainly got the length genes.
21:27:14 <zzo38> I made a new kind of audio waveform synthesis "IDFX" synthesis, which uses four parameters "initial AND gate", "duty", "final AND gate", "XOR gate".
21:28:39 <atriq> I've been mistaken for female a few times
21:28:44 <atriq> When I had a stupid moustache
21:30:03 <zzo38> Which will work like w[t]=(((t&I)^-(t<D))&F)^X;
21:33:23 <atriq> News update: I am a better version of Simon
21:34:23 <zzo38> If I=X=0 then it makes up a square wave with duty D and volume F. It can also make saw wave and triangle wave with certain parameters.
21:49:05 <pikhq_> It's only been 25 years since the APA stopped viewing homosexuality as a disease.
21:49:42 <atriq> That's only 7 years longer than I've been alive!
21:49:50 <zzo38> The only thing you call a disease is because you want to call them a disease.......!!
21:49:53 <pikhq_> That's only 3 years longer than I've been alive.
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21:59:45 <olsner> pikhq_: sweden had that too until -79
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22:01:25 <olsner> iirc they removed it becasue a lot of people called in sick as a protest
22:01:51 <kmc> that is pretty great
22:02:11 <Phantom_Hoover> 21:49:05: <pikhq_> It's only been 25 years since the APA stopped viewing homosexuality as a disease.
22:02:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Because at least having homosexuality being classed as something innate was some kind of improvement.
22:03:23 <olsner> better than it being illegal, I suppose
22:04:19 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: It was used as justification for curing the gay.
22:06:09 <pikhq_> It only became legal nation-wide in the 2003.
22:06:30 <pikhq_> When the SCOTUS ruled that sodomy laws were unconstitutional.
22:06:45 <pikhq_> Thereby legalizing it in 14 states.
22:08:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Was that something they were deliberately trying to do or just a side-effect?
22:08:39 <pikhq_> Deliberately trying to do.
22:08:51 <pikhq_> Heck, 3 states *still* have such laws on the books.
22:09:03 <kmc> it's dumb that we even have to care as a society whether homosexuality is "innate" or not
22:09:04 <pikhq_> (the others repealed on the notion that it was just embarassing now)
22:09:56 <kmc> it speaks to the fact that our legal system is still based on fear of divine judgement, rather than assessing harm to others or lack thereof
22:10:48 <kmc> in other news obama has finally won florida as well
22:12:34 <kmc> yay florida did not matter :)
22:12:46 <pikhq_> Oklahoma, Kansas, and Texas.
22:13:09 <kmc> in fact he would have won without OH, FL, *or* VA
22:16:38 <Phantom_Hoover> so would you say this election was more entertaining than the last
22:16:47 <kmc> definitely not
22:17:07 <kmc> last time we had an epic democratic nomination fight
22:17:23 <kmc> which i made a considerable amount of money betting on
22:17:50 <kmc> also the republican nominee last time was someone who had been written off as dead early on
22:17:55 <kmc> and neither of them was an incumbent
22:18:33 <kmc> 2008 was unusual and history-making in a bunch of ways
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22:18:40 <kmc> new states coming into play, etc
22:18:52 <kmc> also i got really drunk on election night 2008 so yeah
22:18:56 <kmc> much more entertaining
22:19:54 <kmc> n.b. by "epic" i mean "actually epic" and not "internet word for kind of interesting"
22:23:49 <Bike> you mean "epic" as in "my five-volume poetical envisioning is already at the press", right
22:24:09 <kmc> i would read that
22:24:14 <kmc> actually an opera
22:24:20 <Bike> yes, yes indeed
22:24:32 <kmc> with barack obama and hillary clinton singing in italian
22:24:42 <Bike> terza rima the whole way through
22:24:57 <olsner> epic (from the Ancient Greek adjective ἐπικός (epikos), from ἔπος (epos) "word, story, poem"[1])
22:25:13 <zzo38> Can they speak Italian?
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22:25:32 <kmc> they'll just have to get copies of Teach Yourself Italian in 24 Hours For Dummies
22:28:02 <zzo38> Do you think /([-+])([0-9]*)(d[0-9]+|)(g-?[0-9]+|)([dk][hl][0-9]*|)/ is OK for dice rolling specification or do you think some features have been missed?
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22:28:52 <FireFly> Shouldn't [-+] be optional?
22:29:14 <ais523> annoying things about mailman: I tried to send a message through a mailing list I administered
22:29:24 <zzo38> Actually it adds a + to the beginning implicitly so it is already optional for the first term only.
22:29:31 <ais523> it told me there were too many names on the To: line and that it had been held for moderation, and a separate email asking me to moderate it
22:29:35 <zzo38> For other terms it is required.
22:29:49 <ais523> FireFly: [-+] looks rather like an infinite loop, if it does anything at all
22:30:05 <FireFly> ais523: regex, not brainfuck :P
22:30:27 <ais523> I'd write the regex as [+-], for consistency in escaping character classes
22:30:33 <ais523> if you want ] in a character class it has to come at the start
22:30:37 <ais523> and - has to come at one of the ends
22:30:49 <ais523> so I put the - at the right end out of habit in order to avoid clashes
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22:31:14 <Bike> ais523: hey, I'm supposed to ask you about Feather
22:31:14 <ais523> so, say, something that matches BF comments is [^][<>,.+-]
22:31:31 <ais523> the summary is, it was originally an attempt at a serious esolang
22:31:35 <ais523> but I got mad thinking about it
22:31:45 <ais523> so it became an inside joke (the joke being "ais523 refuses to talk about Feather")
22:31:55 <zzo38> OK but that still doesn't completely answer my question (it only partially)
22:31:56 <Vorpal> <Bike> ais523: hey, I'm supposed to ask you about Feather <-- hah
22:32:04 <ais523> also nobody else really seems to understand the language
22:32:14 <ais523> I mean, I don't either, but I understood it more than other people before it drove me crazy and I stopped
22:32:22 <Bike> next you're going to tell me that i don't have to write a eodermdrome interpreter
22:32:28 <Vorpal> ais523, you gave it up for good?
22:32:44 <Vorpal> Bike, Feather involved retroactive changes to the interpreter of the language iirc
22:32:53 <Bike> that sounds pretty exciting
22:32:56 <ais523> Bike: an eodermdrome interp would be great, go for it
22:33:13 <Bike> well, yeah, I've got the subgraph isomorphism check thing down
22:33:15 <Vorpal> Bike, you don't *have* to do anything, that is up to you
22:33:36 <FireFly> I think the Feather article could use some links to relevant portions of the channel logs
22:33:38 <Bike> really, I'm pretty sure I was told that it was a rite of passage, and otherwise I'd be left to the brainfuck wolves
22:33:49 <Bike> and yeah, I was asking about the logs. since there's nine years in the topic.
22:34:16 <zzo38> I wanted to design a hardware and instruction set which makes certain things possible to do efficiently, including run Checkout programs, decode open source audio/video codecs, and emulate the Famicom APU and PPU.
22:34:16 <ais523> most recently I was poking at the edges of the problem that a Feather interpreter must be entirely written in Feather, also you must be able to interpret a Feather program through an arbitrarily large stack of Feather interpreters with only a constant performance penalty (that is, constant time added, not constant factor multiplied)
22:34:29 <ais523> this is… not really a trivial problem
22:35:03 <Vorpal> does anyone know of a software like teamspeak but that is open source?
22:35:17 <ais523> it's slightly more tractable if you force Feather programs to have a property that's a bit like totality but stronger
22:35:31 <Bike> that sounds like like that 900-page 3-lisp thesis i've never been able to read
22:35:35 <Bike> infinite stack of interpreters that is
22:35:43 <ais523> Feather does this sort of thing all the time
22:35:50 <FireFly> Vorpal: I've heard of Mumble, but haven't tried it
22:35:54 <Vorpal> <Bike> and yeah, I was asking about the logs. since there's nine years in the topic. <-- better start reading!
22:35:55 <ais523> it's no wonder that I got confused
22:35:59 <Vorpal> FireFly, thanks, will look into that
22:36:31 <ais523> (the larger problem, which I don't really know how to solve, is trying to determine, after a retroactive change to the fundamentals of the entire universe, which object before the change corresponds to which object afterwards)
22:36:52 <Vorpal> ais523, why does it require a constant performance penality?
22:37:00 <Vorpal> nobody said it had to be fast
22:37:00 <zzo38> Does someone here know something about design of such hardware and instruction set?
22:37:10 <zzo38> Does OpenCores have any such things?
22:37:26 <ais523> Vorpal: for everything except the 2,3 machine, I consider terminating before the heat death of the universe to be a desirable property
22:37:28 <ais523> especially for testing
22:37:48 <ais523> and even the 2,3 machine proof I managed to test each of the parts individually, and in pairs and threes and fours
22:37:56 <ais523> just fives was beyond the ability of my computer
22:38:10 <Vorpal> ais523, how much beyond?
22:38:20 <ais523> many orders of magnitude
22:38:34 <ais523> we're talking about O(2^(2^n)) performance here
22:38:42 <ais523> (where ^ is exponentiation, not bitwise xor)
22:38:58 <Vorpal> ais523, as long as it isn't up arrow I'm happy :P
22:39:04 <ais523> this is one of the least practical computational orders I've ever seen :)
22:40:06 <ais523> nonetheless, Wolfram was insisting that the machine in question might be useful for implementing DNA computers and such
22:40:14 <ais523> not with this construction, at least, it won't be :)
22:41:12 <ais523> one thing I realised for the first time when I met him in person was that he hadn't actually read or understood the proof
22:41:19 <kmc> heh, one of the rapid transit lines in new york has reopened with two stations deliberately closed to avoid dangerous overcrowding
22:41:20 <ais523> and just cared about the page hits from it
22:42:11 <ais523> well, or whatever the less web-specific version of page hits is
22:42:13 <Bike> proof of what?
22:42:17 <ais523> idea exposure, or whatever
22:42:38 <ais523> Bike: http://wolframprize.com
22:42:46 <Vorpal> Bike, ais523's proof that the 2,3 machine is TC
22:42:46 <ais523> (warning: sets a cookie on every image load, I /hate/ sites that do that)
22:42:54 <kmc> FireFly: PATH from Journal Square to 33rd St; Christopher St and 9th St stations are closed
22:43:01 <Bike> dang, that was you?
22:43:11 <Vorpal> ais523, oh is THAT what causes firefox to go crazy?
22:43:23 <ais523> Vorpal: it's not the only cause, but it's the most common
22:43:29 <ais523> Bike: yes, people didn't believe it for a while
22:43:31 <Vorpal> why does firefox handle it in such a stupid way
22:43:35 <Vorpal> pretty sure chrome does not
22:43:51 <ais523> Vorpal: because technically speaking they're separate requests
22:43:52 <Bike> i'll just assume that I'm talking to an alex smith lookalike then
22:44:03 <Vorpal> ais523, yeah but it is not a sensible way to handle it
22:44:10 <ais523> IMO choosing deny should deny cookies for all indirect loads from the page, until the next refresh
22:44:18 <Sgeo> I think I should read English As She Is Spoke sometime
22:44:23 <ais523> or make it explicit with a "deny for session" link
22:44:32 <Vorpal> ais523, it should collapse the stack of when I check the checkbox to always deny
22:44:40 <ais523> worse is things that set cookies on a timer, though
22:44:53 <ais523> (mostly that happens as the result of adverts or mouseover effects)
22:45:10 <Vorpal> I have noscript so yeah I wouldn't notice
22:45:12 <ais523> you could do it with meta refresh too but nobody does
22:45:32 <ais523> btw, holding down alt-d works and is a huge improvement over trying to close all the windows manually
22:45:50 <ais523> especially as they have to be closed in the correct order, and all overlap each other on the same point of the screen
22:47:00 * kmc is plotting to connect an Arduino to his gas stove; what could go wrong?
22:48:02 <ais523> <Wolfram Science> It is not clear, for instance, whether one should allow a Thue-Morse sequence in the initial conditions. In most cases, it should nevertheless be fairly obvious whether something should be considered a valid encoding for a universal system. But in general there is no firmly established criterion.
22:48:07 <ais523> that was written before the proof
22:48:11 <Vorpal> speaking of which, I should get a raspberry pi at some point
22:48:17 <olsner> kmc: obviously some kind of gas explosion
22:48:33 <olsner> also, didn't people stop using gas stoves along with the introduction of electricity?
22:48:53 <Vorpal> olsner, in Sweden, pretty much yes
22:49:03 <kmc> they are still very popular in the USA
22:49:07 <Vorpal> in UK I believe they remained popular for some time
22:49:35 <kmc> they provide much faster control of temperature
22:49:42 <ais523> Vorpal: they're still popular here
22:49:47 <kmc> and more even heating (depending)
22:49:52 <ais523> in both the house I live in and the house I'm currently online from, there's a gas stove
22:49:54 <Vorpal> olsner, but yeah in Sweden I only seen gas stoves in places without electricity, like my grandparent's kollonistuga (whatever that is in English...)
22:50:11 <ais523> they're pretty popular in houses that are gas heated anywhere
22:50:14 <Vorpal> kmc, even more than induction furnaces?
22:50:29 <Vorpal> ais523, the issue is I don't think there are any gas heated houses either here
22:50:49 <kmc> i don't know about induction furnaces
22:51:00 <Vorpal> err not furnace, stove
22:51:11 <Vorpal> I was thinking about minecraft and messed it up XD
22:51:11 <kmc> also i think in some areas of the US, natural gas is much cheaper than electricity for this purpose
22:51:14 <ais523> Vorpal: gas is almost as important as electricity in the UK
22:51:30 <Vorpal> ais523, I heard you even have gas lines in the streets over there
22:51:32 <ais523> I think this is partly because natural gas is one of the few fossil fuels that the UK (mostly Scotland) has that are usable for heating
22:51:42 <ais523> yes, every now and then they dig up the streets to repair them
22:51:58 <ais523> just like with electricity and water and (sometimes) telephone
22:52:05 <Vorpal> ais523, it sounds terribly unsafe to have those in the street, what happens if they leak?
22:52:12 <olsner> Vorpal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allotment_(gardening)
22:52:15 <Vorpal> ais523, also where would the telephone be if not in the street?
22:52:32 <ais523> Vorpal: then the leak is typically quickly detected
22:52:41 <kmc> Vorpal: small leaks outside are not that much of a problem, it will dissipate and not build up concentration
22:52:45 <kmc> but yes, they detect and fix leaks
22:52:50 <kmc> electricity is also quite dangerous if it "leaks"
22:53:08 <kmc> every year a few people are electrocuted by touching streetlight poles or manhole covers that have mistakenly become electrically live
22:53:09 <ais523> Vorpal: there's a chemical added to the gas so that people can smell it
22:53:16 <ais523> and pretty much everyone (well over half the population) recognises it
22:53:23 <kmc> natural gas fires/explosions are a particular concern in earthquakes
22:53:27 <ais523> you smell a small amount of it whenever anyone lights an oven
22:53:34 <ais523> and there's an emergency number for gas leaks
22:53:43 <ais523> kmc: the UK, at least, is particularly tectonically stable
22:53:55 <Vorpal> olsner, are you sure we two didn't travel back in time somehow relative to the rest of the world?
22:54:10 <ais523> Vorpal: a few years ago, there was a large gas odoriser leak
22:54:15 <ais523> it caused chaos with all the false positives
22:54:25 <ais523> (some sort of accident at a factory that was manufacturing gas odoriser)
22:55:05 <olsner> Vorpal: different parts of the world live in different so-called "time zones"
22:55:44 <Vorpal> olsner, ah, that must be it
22:56:38 <fizzie> We had a gas oven where we lived back when I was (more of) a child.
22:57:56 <fizzie> There was a leak -- I forget the details -- and I was home alone, and like somewhere between six-to-eight years old, and I had been told not to go outside alone, but it was so smelly inside, due to that leak.
22:58:34 <fizzie> When my parents came home, they found me standing inside the apartment but with my head outside in the stairway; they asked me what on earth I was doing, and I apparently replied that it's too smelly inside.
22:59:04 <fizzie> From what I have been told, they were kind of relieved-shocked-scared after realizing what had been going n.
22:59:25 <kmc> the punchline is that there was no gas leak, you had just been farting a tremendous amount
22:59:29 <olsner> why didn't you open a window?
22:59:53 <fizzie> olsner: I don't know. I don't really remember any of this, I've just heard about it afterwards.
22:59:59 <olsner> I wonder if that's a good or bad thing to do when you have a gas leak
23:00:00 <kmc> some friends of mine (mathematicians all) lived in a house with a gas fireplace
23:00:11 <kmc> they tried to turn it on but lacked necessary tools so they went at it with pliars and a blowtorch
23:00:26 <kmc> this created a persistent gas leak in the living room, which was noticed by all but not really deemed to be a problem
23:00:29 <atriq> They were never heard from again
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23:00:44 <ais523> people tend to take gas leaks seriously around here
23:00:45 <kmc> "so, how bout that gas leak?" "yup." "someone should do something about it"
23:00:51 <ais523> oh, also they install carbon monoxide detectors
23:00:57 <ais523> to allow for another common malfunction
23:01:02 <nortti> did you know that konqueror supports ^u and hjkl?
23:01:03 <kmc> this went on for a few weeks until one of their girlfriends visited the house and she was like "uh, you guys are idiots"
23:01:16 <Vorpal> olsner, how very peculiar the rest of the world seems to be
23:01:27 <ais523> nortti: it also will give a keybinding to as many links on the page as it can if you press and release control
23:01:30 <fizzie> Huh. The backlight of this (win7) laptop just turned to maximum brightness, and the (probably GPU) fan started to go on like anything. Also everything went kind of bright.
23:01:41 <ais523> fizzie: sounds like some sort of total failure of ACPI
23:02:07 <fizzie> ais523: Kind of weird. Perhaps I should rebootsen.
23:02:24 <Vorpal> nortti, ^u? What does that do?
23:02:39 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, if ACPI is that broken, weird stuff might happen on the reboot attempt
23:02:40 <Vorpal> and since hjkl is vi(m) I assume so is ^u
23:02:48 <ais523> if you do, let us know what happened when you come back
23:02:51 <nortti> Vorpal: it is emacs/shell keybindig. empties current line
23:02:58 <fizzie> ais523: Bringing up the "NVIDIA Control Panel" made the brightness go back to normal and the fan quiet down.
23:03:10 <ais523> Vorpal: hjkl is NetHack, and control-u moves north-east as much as possible
23:03:17 <ais523> fizzie: ah, so some sort of GPU reset, perhaps?
23:03:23 <fizzie> (Also the display flicker briefly, but I don't recall whether the control panel always does that.)
23:03:24 <Vorpal> ais523, oh, I use numpad in nethack
23:03:38 <Sgeo> ais523, I think NetHack took those keys from vi(m)
23:03:45 <nortti> Vorpal: also I think readline (or what was it called. bash and irssi use it) has it.
23:04:18 <nortti> ais523: hjkl is from ex
23:04:21 <ais523> nortti: hmm, I use C-a C-k to empty the current line in Emacs (and that also works in bash, at least)
23:04:46 <ais523> elliott: is that a capital U specifically?
23:04:58 <nortti> ais523: ^u and ^U do the same
23:05:01 <ais523> you never can tell with keybindings
23:05:15 <nortti> ais523: 2 most significant bits of 7 bit ascii char are cut out
23:05:48 <ais523> nortti: not on /every/ possible control combo
23:05:53 <ais523> although it's the case with most of them
23:06:32 <elliott> ais523: it's capital U because that's how ^ works :P
23:06:44 <ais523> this is why I use C- notation :P
23:06:55 <elliott> > let control x = chr (ord x - ord '@') in control 'U'
23:06:59 <elliott> > let control x = chr (ord x - ord '@') in control '@'
23:07:02 <elliott> > let control x = chr (ord x - ord '@') in control 'u'
23:07:12 <elliott> i can assure you: it is not 5
23:07:23 <shachaf> > let control x = chr (ord x - ord '@') in control 'U'
23:08:47 <nortti> ^s is xoff but I have never heard or ^r
23:10:52 <FireFly> In what context? in shells it's usually reverse-incremental-search
23:11:53 <Vorpal> FireFly, what is the usual mapping of history-search-backward and history-search-forward
23:11:59 <Vorpal> I use my own custom mappings for them
23:12:04 <Vorpal> so I forget what the default ones are
23:12:58 <FireFly> I don't know what those do
23:14:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: bash (according to the readline parts of the man page) doesn't have a default binding.
23:14:20 <Vorpal> FireFly, allow you to step to the previous/next line in history that matches the currently written line. So if I write cd f<PgUp> (which is how I have it bound) it will go to, say "cd foo" then on PgUp again to "cd faa" or whatever was done before that
23:14:55 <fizzie> I just do that with reverse-incremental-search, generally.
23:15:06 <fizzie> Possibly due to laziness.
23:15:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, how does that work, it isn't something I ever used
23:15:50 <fizzie> You type ^r first, and then 'cd f'; it will keep incrementally-updating the search result.
23:15:58 <fizzie> And then you can keep tapping ^r to go further back.
23:16:08 <Vorpal> and if you went to far, what do you hit then
23:16:13 <Vorpal> to go forward one step
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23:16:17 <fizzie> I forget exactly what. :p
23:16:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have to say that history-search-backward/history-search-forward seems like slightly less typing to me
23:17:55 <FireFly> Vorpal: if you do "foo<PgUp>", would it match e.g. "cd foo"?
23:18:04 <fizzie> "<C-r>cd f" has the same number of typed characters as "cd f<PgUp>".
23:18:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, ISTR zsh bound going forward to whatever Emacs uses for going down a line.
23:18:17 <Vorpal> FireFly, no it is bound to the start of the line
23:18:24 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm a bash user
23:18:40 <FireFly> Vorpal: I'm pretty sure ^R would match that
23:18:53 <fizzie> The incremental search matches anywhere in the line, yes.
23:18:54 <Vorpal> FireFly, right, and if I don't want that?
23:19:03 <fizzie> It's sometimes useful; sometimes not.
23:19:19 <Vorpal> does C-r support regexp?
23:19:26 <Vorpal> so you just put ^ in front or such
23:19:39 <elliott> <fizzie> You type ^r first, and then 'cd f'; it will keep incrementally-updating the search result.
23:20:00 <FireFly> Vorpal: the zsh version does, apparently
23:20:06 <Vorpal> elliott, so it is C-Shift-r?
23:20:28 <elliott> ^R means press control and the R key
23:20:40 <Vorpal> elliott, and what does ^r mean?
23:20:41 <elliott> because that's what a terminal sends
23:20:45 <elliott> ^r means something nonsense
23:21:13 <Vorpal> elliott, how do you type ^r?
23:21:15 <fizzie> The "UI" of the search is also sometimes somehow iffy; you can keep typing things, but if there are no matches, the input doesn't show up; yet it "exists" in that backspace removes it before it affects the visible part.
23:22:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I guess it is nice having both that and the history search style I'm in love with, for different occasions
23:23:26 <fizzie> Bash/readline incremental search doesn't seem to support anything else than just plain (unanchored) string match, sadly.
23:23:29 <Vorpal> my recommendation for your inputrc if pgup/pgdown is easy to reach on your keyboard (as it is on my laptop):
23:23:30 <Vorpal> "\e[5~": history-search-backward
23:23:30 <Vorpal> "\e[6~": history-search-forward
23:25:14 <fizzie> I keep using "<C-r>sprunge" to pull up a "curl -F 'sprunge=<-' http://sprunge.us" command line, because I somehow can't seem to manage to be bothered to make an alias/a script for that. I do it so often that it always seems to be in the history; the fact that I can reach it with that is probably the reason I still haven't managed to make that command.
23:26:04 <fizzie> (It's a vicious circle.)
23:26:13 <elliott> fizzie: i am the exact same
23:26:19 <elliott> i never thought i'd meet someone with that problem
23:26:48 <pikhq_> Weird. I've just had ~/local/bin/sprunge for ages.
23:27:08 <nortti> fizzie: try shell that doesn't save history in a file :P
23:27:10 <pikhq_> Though, I also have ~/local/bin so....
23:27:13 <fizzie> I've had that at home for quite a while, it's just the workstation at wrk that's the problematical one.
23:27:20 <atriq> elliott, when was the last time you actually met someone
23:27:48 <fizzie> And I do have a ~/local/bin/ at work, it's not like I couldn't just type "scp ~/local/bin/sprunge james:local/bin/" at home once and get it done.
23:27:51 <elliott> atriq: 1992 when i died irl
23:28:15 <Phantom_Hoover> i've been hoping to meet a fellow member of the dead community for so long!
23:28:20 <fizzie> (I even typed it as a part of that comment, just not in the right place.)
23:36:34 <ais523> Vorpal: hmm, perhaps the Web would be better off if images couldn't set cookies
23:36:45 <ais523> I only know of one legitimate use for that, and it's workaroundable
23:42:33 <ais523> elliott: Wikimedia's unified login thing
23:42:44 <ais523> for setting cookies on all the domain names they use when you log in
23:42:55 <ais523> they could use iframes for that instead, though
23:43:16 <ais523> or even a huge redirect chain, I guess
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00:07:23 <elliott> kmc: i have a quote you will like (hate)
00:09:19 <elliott> kmc: never mind i misinterpreted it
00:09:24 <olsner> is it a good quote? is it funny?
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00:11:42 <Vorpal> <ais523> Vorpal: hmm, perhaps the Web would be better off if images couldn't set cookies <-- yes
00:15:19 <zzo38> I always use the script for sprunge instead of entering the full command.
00:16:24 <zzo38> It is also possible to make a bookmarklet for sprunge too in case you need it for some reason.
00:19:02 <zzo38> What other kind of dice rules might you use other than what I have? /([-+])([0-9]*)(d[0-9]+|)(g-?[0-9]+|)([dk][hl][0-9]*|)/ (negation) (number of dice or constant) (number of sides) (glitch; replaces with constant if half or more dice come up 1) (drop/keep high/lowest dice) Should there be other options available?
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00:38:25 <zzo38> Although I like the sprunge pastebin, it has one problem, which is because of the Google server which sends incorrect responses to headerless requests.
00:39:31 <zzo38> Can you tell Google to fix this?
00:40:13 <fizzie> Only supporting HTTP/1.1 does not sound like such a terrible faux pas these days.
00:40:14 <zzo38> You could also tell the people who made sprunge to move it off of Google; that is another way.
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00:40:47 <Vorpal> my current phone today is way more advanced than the computer I got 12 years ago. I wonder if my phone 12 years into the future will be way more advanced than my current desktop
00:41:08 <zzo38> I don't know either.
00:41:20 <Vorpal> it is an interesting question though
00:41:40 <zzo38> Can you bet on it?
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00:43:26 <shachaf> Vorpal: But is it more advanced at entering text?!
00:43:44 <Vorpal> shachaf, well, SwiftKey is kind of nice...
00:43:56 <Vorpal> shachaf, but sure the physical size of the screen and keyboard are smaller
00:44:01 <fizzie> I understand there are quite "general" betting sites where you can bet on very many things. Possibly not on Vorpal's phone in particular, but phones in general.
00:44:22 <Vorpal> I don't think I would bet money on anything
00:44:24 <olsner> you can probably bet on anything with a browser
00:44:24 <zzo38> I intend to make the computer, and one of the things I intend to make it is not to be overcomplicated, while still allowing it to run at reasonable performance and other features.
00:44:30 <shachaf> Vorpal: But the resolution is higher!
00:44:51 <Vorpal> shachaf, that old computer was 800x600, my phone is 720p
00:45:34 <fizzie> longbets.org, for example; though the topics must be "societally or scientifically important".
00:46:11 <Vorpal> my phone has more CPU cores, more RAM, faster CPU, more non-volatile storage and a battery that lasts longer
00:46:13 <zzo38> This computer is codenamed POWERXY but it probably won't be its actual name.
00:46:14 <nortti> zzo38: what is overcomplicated or reasonable performance?
00:46:23 <fizzie> "What kind of a phone Vorpal has in 12 years" might not be societally important. Arguably.
00:47:05 <olsner> I wonder if societally is actually a word
00:47:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, well the question could be generalised to "the current generation of PC gaming computers" and "the state of the art smartphones in 12 years time"
00:47:12 <zzo38> nortti: Like, I will omit some things not needed such as the overly complicated x86 or ARM9 (ARM2 is sufficient, I think), omit USB, omit HDMI, omit too much complicated built-in software (you can load it externally instead), etc
00:48:00 <Vorpal> nortti, oh god you got zzo started on a rant
00:49:32 <zzo38> Other than those things, other features I plan is a complete manual (including internals and pinouts), open source hardware as much as possible and open source software 100% (for built-in software; external software may or may not be), jumpers on mainboard, and currently the plan of the external ports:
00:50:55 <fizzie> Why isn't http://longbets.org/291/ ruled on yet?
00:51:07 <zzo38> * CD/DVD (read-only) * Expansion port * Audio in and out, stereo for both * Composite video out * Component video out * Digi-RGB out * 4x 33SS input port * Compact flash * Panel with display and buttons
00:51:22 <zzo38> * Infrared receiver
00:51:27 <elliott> fizzie: probably because longbets seems sort of dead
00:51:29 <fizzie> "If the US has not descended into Open Despotism, Pseudo-Democracy or Anarchy before the incumbent party holds its 2012 Presidential nominating convention, the challenger wins."
00:51:41 <fizzie> Given that they had the elections already, I assume that happened too?
00:51:50 <elliott> fizzie: well you could argue pseudo-democracy
00:52:07 <zzo38> Maybe you should bet on your phone in a casino
00:52:17 <zzo38> Instead of on the computer.
00:52:24 <pikhq_> elliott: "Descended" suggests "a different status from what existed at the time the bet was made".
00:52:27 <fizzie> The definition used there did involve not using a conventional nominating convention, though.
00:52:27 <Vorpal> I'm not a betting person
00:52:52 <fizzie> I wonder how's it going with their clock, though.
00:53:02 <pikhq_> In government form, the US is utterly identical to that of 2007 US.
00:53:17 <ais523> except for different people?
00:53:44 <ais523> btw, what are the party allegiances of the two supreme court justices who are likely to retire this term?
00:54:05 <elliott> I like this one: http://longbets.org/129/ -- wherein the challenger (Brian Eno!) does it out of cynicism rather than disagreement.
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00:55:38 <ais523> elliott: well he still thought he'd win
00:55:40 <ais523> just he didn't /want/ to win
00:55:48 <ais523> so I guess you could call it insurance
00:56:36 <elliott> ais523: well, I mean that you'd expect someone challenging to think the Republicans are just great and of course they'll win because they're awesome.
00:56:57 <elliott> ais523: it's not really insurance, since the money goes to charity :P
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00:57:21 <elliott> well, I suppose Eno might think a Republican government might threaten the San Francisco Exploratorium
00:57:38 <zzo38> Built-in software might include: * Date/time * Filesystem drivers * Keyboard translation * Play audio CD * Forth interpreter * BASIC interpreter * TCP/IP driver * DVI to PCL and all of it runs on a single-tasking operating system.
00:58:00 <zzo38> O, and it will also include a copy of the printed manual on the hard drive in case you want to print another copy.
00:58:25 <zzo38> At least to me this seem reasonable; maybe you it isn't I don't know!!!
00:59:41 <Vorpal> zzo38, no SCTP support? No USB?
00:59:50 <Vorpal> pretty useless and dated system that
01:00:10 <Vorpal> also who uses CDs any more
01:01:18 <zzo38> Vorpal: Correct; no USB. I think many complication and problem with USB, so instead it is 33SS (my own much simpler protocol, which will be documented; it has other advantages too such as self-cleaning). The DVD drive can load CD too, so even if you don't use CD, it has CD.
01:02:15 <Vorpal> zzo38, I don't care about DVD or CD, I do however require USB
01:02:21 <Vorpal> clearly not a computer for me that
01:02:50 <zzo38> If you don't want DVD/CD then unscrew and open it and remove the optical drive.
01:03:41 <olsner> Vorpal: obviously you don't want USB
01:03:53 <Vorpal> zzo38, also what GPU will you use?
01:04:06 <Vorpal> zzo38, something with OpenGL 4 support I hope?
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01:04:14 <zzo38> Vorpal: Well, but it will make a space that you can add a USB or whatever.
01:04:43 <Vorpal> zzo38, also how many cores will the CPU have?
01:04:53 <Vorpal> oh and infrared? What is the point of IRDA?
01:05:11 <Vorpal> bluetooth and wifi are much more useful
01:05:26 <Vorpal> no ethernet mentioned either?
01:06:03 <FireFly> I wish more smartphones would ship with built-in FM transmitter
01:06:08 <zzo38> Vorpal: I intend to design my own PPU and APU with its own instruction sets; there is no need to compile C programs on the PPU/APU; but the CPU is a slight variant of ARM2 so you can compile C programs on it. Currently, design for CPU with single core but that might change. Infrared is for remote control. But I just forgot to mention ethernet.
01:06:46 <Vorpal> zzo38, PPU? Also the Arithmetic Processing Unit (APU) is a part of the CPU, no?
01:06:47 <zzo38> The number of cores of CPU and that stuff depend much on things I currently do not know.
01:07:02 <zzo38> Vorpal: In this case, PPU means Picture Processing Unit, and APU is Audio Processing Unit.
01:07:02 <Vorpal> FireFly, mine has that, it is kind of bad though. My old nokia had a less noisy one
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01:07:24 <Vorpal> zzo38, so what about high performance 3D graphics?
01:07:31 <zzo38> (Unlike the Famicom, though, they will be much more powerful and have instruction sets.)
01:08:12 <zzo38> Vorpal: High quality 3D graphics is not a priority. But I may see if it will be possible.
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01:08:21 <FireFly> In what way would a PPU differ from a GPU?
01:08:55 <zzo38> FireFly: The name, I guess.
01:09:34 <zzo38> The CPU is I intend to make a few modifications to the OpenCores Amber core, so GCC (but not LLVM) can compile programs targeting it, and it runs faster than an actual ARM2.
01:11:02 <fizzie> I have a FM transmitter in this phone, but I haven't managed to test it even once.
01:11:03 <zzo38> LLVM only support ARM7 and newer but it may be able to be modified to support ARM2 as well.
01:11:21 <fizzie> Reportedly the signal strength is quite frequency-dependent, due to physics.
01:11:54 <zzo38> Wifi and bluetooth can be useful although may be connected using the expansion port. However, this is just plan so far so maybe it will have built-in, but if it does have such thing built-in it will have a hardware switch to disable them.
01:12:09 <Vorpal> <FireFly> I wish more smartphones would ship with built-in FM transmitter <-- oh I thought that was a typo for "reciever"
01:12:13 <Vorpal> then I guess I don't have one
01:12:47 <Vorpal> I didn't know there were phones with transmitters for that
01:12:52 <FireFly> Nokia N900 has a transmitter--it's useful for streaming music to the car radio
01:12:55 <fizzie> I haven't tried the receiver either. :p
01:13:14 <Vorpal> FireFly, why not just use bluetooth for that? Or a cable
01:13:17 <fizzie> This is a N900; but there are other phones with the feature.
01:13:27 <Vorpal> FireFly, the car I'm currently driving most support both
01:13:35 <fizzie> Requires no support from the car radio is the point, of course.
01:13:44 <FireFly> Vorpal: because most car radios I've used only support CD and FM
01:13:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, but modern cars have that
01:13:56 <zzo38> But don't you have AM radio too?
01:14:02 <Vorpal> FireFly, modern Volvo V70 has that feature at least
01:14:18 <fizzie> Quite a few people still drive cars that are not terribly modern.
01:14:33 <Vorpal> it is awesome to drive modern cars though
01:15:21 <fizzie> The N900 also has a consumer-IR transmitter; lirc can use it to drive just about anything with an IR remote control, or so I believe. Haven't managed to bother trying it out either.
01:16:20 <fizzie> ISTR there was a program to run through the "power off" key signals of the whole lirc remote db, so that if there's an annoying TV screen in a public place, you can just turn it off.
01:17:00 <zzo38> There is some devices for such thing, however I may prefer to mute the TV
01:17:27 <fizzie> Yes, the apps might support that too.
01:17:32 <zzo38> Since usually only I don't like it because of the noise, and other people may still want to watch TV.
01:17:36 <FireFly> I never used the IR feature a lot
01:18:39 <fizzie> There's a single IR-controllable device here at home, so it's not terribly useful. (Well, possibly a second one too, though not in use.)
01:19:31 <fizzie> People with piles of them that don't want to buy a separate multi-purpose remote might find it more useful.
01:20:37 <Vorpal> I think I have 3 such deviceds
01:20:39 <zzo38> At my house we have two TV sets, one DVD player, one DVD/VCR combination, which are currently connected and which use infrared. (There may be others which are not currently connected so are not in use.)
01:21:04 <Vorpal> one TV, one DVD/VHS and one radio with IR based remotes
01:22:26 <fizzie> There's a receiver/amplifier kind of thing, and that's about it. (There's also a DVB-T USB stick with an IR receiver, but it's not in use since we stopped paying the TV access fee; next year it switches to a tax-funded scheme so maybe we'll dig it out though.)
01:22:51 <fizzie> In any case the stick'd be in a computer, and you don't need IR to speak to one of those. (Usually.)
01:24:23 <fizzie> It came with one of those really cheap-looking tiny plastic no-feel-to-the-buttons remotes.
01:25:28 <fizzie> (But it did work with lirc so it's possible to use anything else too. Assuming close-enough carrier frequency anyway.)
01:25:36 <zzo38> The DVD/VCR can playback and record on both drives, even simultaneously. If we want to record a TV show to be able to watch later we will use the VHS, but if we want to keep it or transfer it to computer will use DVD. Once my brother want to put a recording of Super Smash Bros. Brawl so we recorded it on a DVD video and then copy to his computer.
01:28:25 <fizzie> (The consumer IR receivers tend to have some kind of hardware filter so that they sense only a particular carrier freq (typically 38 kHz) signal, presumably to make them less suspectible to noise from other IR sources.
01:28:58 <FreeFull> Sunlight is an IR source, so stuff that doesn't discriminate can have problems with that
01:30:18 <fizzie> Yeah; it's just not always the same frequency, so there can be (signal strength) problems mixing remotes and receivers.
01:31:06 <Vorpal> just make the remote blast on a lot of frequencies?
01:31:38 <fizzie> But both the remotes and the receivers are fixed-frequency devices, is the problem.
01:32:06 <fizzie> Certainly if you're making a multifunction remote, that's a possibility.
01:32:43 <fizzie> But not for repurposing an old remote for device X, while having a receiver scavenged from device Y.
01:33:26 <fizzie> I remember making a lirc remote file for a really old TV remote I had from a smoke-came-out-years-earlier TV set; happened to work out well enough with whatever I was using as the receiver.
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01:42:09 <Sgeo> Yet my client claims 9.3 second lag
01:42:57 <Bike> lag's imprecise, since it checks by pinging, and it only does that occasionally
01:54:58 <zzo38> Maybe this computer I design will include in packaging: * Game controllers * RJ45 cables (used for ethernet and 33SS) * Keyboard * CompactFlash card * Complete manual (with tabs) * Remote control * DVD with many games included * RCA cables * [If you want printer, mouse, screwdriver, extra game controller, etc you have to get it separately.]
01:58:14 <zzo38> Also such things as USB adapter, NES/Famicom cartridge adapter, product catalog, floppy drive, you also need to get it separately, in some cases must be third party, or you can built it yourself from publicly available files and schematics.
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02:55:43 * pikhq_ looks forward to *somebody* being pissed at him
02:56:11 <pikhq_> "So, yeah. I'm bisexual. I'm an atheist. Pitchforks on the right, high fives on the left, please."
02:57:03 <zzo38> Voting for Famicompo is now open.
03:00:48 <zzo38> http://famicompo-mini.com/compo/vol9/
03:01:57 <zzo38> For voting, click one of the bottom two triangles (for the section you want to vote: original/cover) in the header, select "Entry" and fill the form, but first download and listen to the files.
03:06:57 <zzo38> Some of them are English, though; submissions and comments are accepted in English and in Japanese.
03:07:24 <pikhq_> (kannsì so-su yomeru. kanji sōsu yomeru. I read the kanjisauce.)
03:07:52 <zzo38> However, if you download file and use program to play .NSF (NES/Famicom emulator can usually be used for this), you can listen to music.
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03:14:22 <Arc_Koen> anyone here has a cool simple arithmetical function implementing logical not (0 -> 1 everything else -> 0) with +-*/% ?
03:15:26 <Sgeo> Does using absolute value count as arithmetical
03:15:41 <Sgeo> Oh, I guess not
03:16:05 <zzo38> You can use exponent (0^(0^x)) but I don't know using those operation.
03:16:42 <zzo38> (0^(0^x)) make 0 to 0 and nonzero to 1
03:17:46 <Arc_Koen> though not gonna solve my problem
03:18:05 <Arc_Koen> but I think I can work my way without it
03:18:14 <Arc_Koen> FreeFull: it is, unless you define it
03:18:26 <Arc_Koen> and good people define it to 1
03:18:35 <Sgeo> Multiply by x, add one, mod 1 fail on -1
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03:19:37 <Phantom__Hoover> <Arc_Koen> anyone here has a cool simple arithmetical function implementing logical not (0 -> 1 everything else -> 0) with +-*/% ?
03:19:37 <zzo38> I think it is actually related to a Haskell type like (x -> Zero)
03:19:40 <FreeFull> Arc_Koen: If rather than everything else you had a specific value in mind, it'd be easier
03:20:00 <zzo38> If you are treated the type as arithmetic/logic instead of type.
03:20:01 <FreeFull> 0 -> -1 you could use (x+1)*(-1)
03:20:13 <Phantom__Hoover> I'd point out that you're trying to create a discontinuous function by composition of continuous ones, but % isn't continuous.
03:20:34 <quintopia> %2 seems an obvious place to start
03:21:07 <Arc_Koen> oh, you could try all the modulos
03:21:16 <tswett> Say, something I've wondered for a little while.
03:21:43 <tswett> Are there any computable sets of axioms that uni--no, not that.
03:21:59 <FreeFull> Phantom__Hoover: Basically trying to create a function that takes integers and only has a spike at x=0
03:22:20 <tswett> Are there any operating systems that, instead of using virtual memory and system calls and all that, work by recompiling all executed code so that it doesn't even try to do prohibited stuff?
03:22:37 <FreeFull> quintopia: Integers have half values now?
03:22:41 <Arc_Koen> FreeFull: yeah I just want 0 -> something nonzero anything nonzero -> 0
03:22:58 <tswett> I guess the Java platform, and pretty much every application virtual machine, works that way.
03:23:20 <Phantom__Hoover> You said it had to take integers, not that all intermediate values had to be integers
03:24:07 <quintopia> FreeFull: the dirac delta function only has a spike at a particular value, though it's value at that point is infinite
03:24:18 <quintopia> do you mind if the nonzero value is "infinity"?
03:25:12 <quintopia> (x/(x-0.5)+1)%2 works for all integer x
03:25:25 <FreeFull> quintopia: That only works if you've got floating point somewhere
03:25:59 <quintopia> the 0.5 would need to be like...0.9
03:27:55 <FreeFull> quintopia: You're also assuming that floats get rounded rather than, say, floored
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03:29:48 <Arc_Koen> and everything alse to small/255 which is 0
03:30:11 <Phantom__Hoover> the words 'lagrange' and 'interpolation' are creeping steadily into my mind
03:30:46 <FreeFull> I just have the graph of 1/x stuck in my head
03:31:09 <FreeFull> But division by zero is not kosher
03:31:35 <FreeFull> Arc_Koen: Is x signed or unsigned?
03:32:05 <Arc_Koen> well in my very specific case it was a signed integer that I restrained to 0-255
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03:33:19 <quintopia> can we restrict this to the positive integers?
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03:36:11 <quintopia> i dunno why i didnt think of it before
03:36:24 <zzo38> I was thinking the same thing, at the same time
03:36:32 <quintopia> its graph is the hat shape that hits 1 at zero and is between 0 and 1 everywhere else
03:36:40 <quintopia> so do greatest integer to it and bam
03:37:17 <quintopia> in fact you can make a continous version that is arbitrarily close to what you want without truncation
03:37:45 <quintopia> as n->infty, that goes to "zero everywhere and 1 at zero"
03:38:05 <FreeFull> Just 1/(x*x+1) if you restrict to integers
03:38:42 <quintopia> you mean "just 1/(x*x+1) if you use integer division"
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04:09:57 <Arc_Koen> oh, maybe to include negative integers as well
04:10:10 <Arc_Koen> well thank you for your help and good night
04:14:20 <shachaf> 19:22:37 <kmc> i'll take a moment to plug my tiny thread library: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/spawn/0.2/doc/html/Control-Concurrent-Spawn.html
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04:36:54 <zzo38> For voting for Famicompo, I choose to: listen to files at random and vote them without seeing tht title, and without caring if it is original/cover, voting each song of a multisong file individually (the vote to send will be whichever is smallest, unless they are the same song with variation, in which case the largest number use instead).
04:37:26 <zzo38> Some comments may be written at this time, too. And then, read the titles, relisten if necessary, to write additional comments.
04:37:56 <zzo38> All of this is written in a local file. After is all written, to copy it to the form to send to Famicompo.
04:38:25 <zzo38> Do you think this way is reasonable?
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04:44:32 <kmc> plug plug plug
04:44:47 <kmc> shachaf: I saw rwbarton at a party
04:44:57 <kmc> i told him that his excellent python quiz has fallen off the internet
04:45:05 <kmc> then we subjected someone else at the party to the python quit
04:47:28 <shachaf> copumpkin: Sure! He was at HacBoston.
04:47:58 <shachaf> http://web.archive.org/web/20101009122154/http://web.mit.edu/rwbarton/www/python.html ?
04:49:01 <shachaf> kmc: For a few minutes ghc-core used Spawn.
04:49:41 <elliott> i bet i could do that quiz
04:51:35 <Jafet> Oh, the quiz wasn't lost forever.
04:54:56 <kmc> shachaf: heh
05:00:58 <copumpkin> I like #3 just because most people see it and think the answer is one of two things, and it turns out to be neither
05:04:01 <coppro> I don't even understand what the third line means
05:04:55 <Sgeo> It's a generator comprehension
05:05:04 <Sgeo> Think along the lines of a Haskell list comprehension
05:05:24 <coppro> ahahahahahahahahahahah
05:05:49 <Sgeo> I'm curious, what's so hilarious
05:06:19 <Jafet> The snake oil programming language.
05:06:23 <Sgeo> Well, knowing that there's a trick, I had some idea of what it was, but yeah, that's surprising
05:07:52 <Sgeo> Well, generator expressions make generators which are lazy, so that's part of it
05:08:19 <Bike> i would understand 11, I would understand 33, I do not understand 31.
05:08:33 <Bike> i.e. I am the rube copumpkin prophesied
05:08:59 <Sgeo> I think people would have guessed either 11 or 21
05:09:04 <copumpkin> it only captures one of the two variables
05:09:12 <copumpkin> I've had people argue that it's expected behavior, too
05:09:29 <Bike> The answer is bullshit. Spoil'd
05:09:37 <Bike> But seriously, what the fuck?
05:09:57 * Sgeo suddenly is uncomfortable with Python
05:10:07 <Bike> How do you know which variable is captured?
05:11:28 <Sgeo> #1 makes no sense
05:11:29 <Bike> It's just the first, huh. Crappy implementation.
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05:12:19 <Bike> #1 is at least consistent. No fresh binding for the loop.
05:13:05 <Bike> all the x's in the lambdas are the same x, which ends at 99.
05:13:16 <Sgeo> Bike, you mean i?
05:13:34 <Sgeo> I corrected Bike! I can die happy now!
05:13:39 <Bike> Though I have no idea how you'd rebind a variable in Python.
05:14:06 <Bike> putting in an i=i doesn't work...
05:14:51 <kmc> Sgeo: #1 is the same thing that would happen in Scheme
05:14:58 <kmc> if you faithfully translated the mutating 'for' loop
05:15:06 <kmc> closures close over mutable variables, not over values
05:15:08 <kmc> in both Scheme and Python
05:15:52 <shachaf> In Python you can't mutate those variables, though.
05:15:52 <Sgeo> Going to go see what Clojure does
05:15:56 <kmc> as for "rebind a variable", there isn't a "let" construct
05:16:12 <Bike> I know that much.
05:16:23 <kmc> you introduce a new scope with a new function
05:16:38 <Bike> oh, so just hack it with a lambda
05:16:43 <kmc> so i think (lambda i: lambda x: x+i)(i) would do the expected thing
05:16:47 <kmc> but is not very pythonic
05:17:00 <Sgeo> The C++ thingy on IdeOne does Paredit but Clojure doesn't
05:17:19 <Bike> yep, that works.
05:20:34 <Sgeo> http://ideone.com/ErNJ7R
05:21:47 <shachaf> 0 days since Sgeo last mentioned Clojure in #esoteric
05:21:53 <Bike> so, what would you do to make it idiomatic, in the totally reasonable use-case of "I need an array of a hundred indexed adders"
05:22:06 <shachaf> An array of a hundred indexed adders isn't Pythonic, Bike.
05:22:22 <shachaf> You'd probably use objects or something.
05:22:41 <Sgeo> Hmm, I'm not entirely sure what the most idiomatic thing to do would be
05:22:53 <Sgeo> Could use loop/recur, I guess
05:22:59 <Sgeo> To make a vector
05:23:11 <kmc> Bike: probably def adder(i): return lambda x: x + i
05:23:21 <kmc> i've done this before anyway
05:23:29 <Bike> how boringly reasonable
05:23:48 <Sgeo> In Clojure, arrays aren't idiomatic, vectors are preferred
05:24:13 <Bike> what's the difference
05:24:19 <Sgeo> Vectors are immutable
05:24:35 <Sgeo> And have different performance characteristics, I think
05:24:55 <Bike> sometimes I have a transient wish that just for a brief moment words would mean things...
05:25:21 <Sgeo> The word "functor" is always fun.
05:25:42 <Sgeo> Each language that has "functors" has an entirely different and unrelated idea of what a functor is
05:26:18 <Bike> also, how do you not know how to initialize a vector? that must be pretty basic
05:28:17 <Sgeo> http://ideone.com/TwDf2E
05:28:21 <Sgeo> This should be idiomatic
05:28:23 <Sgeo> Could also map
05:28:38 <Sgeo> Hmm, I have no real use for that vec
05:29:16 <Bike> the problem isn't really something you'd want to actually do, it's just to demonstrate how a part of python works
05:29:17 <Sgeo> Bike, because I derped
05:43:29 <pikhq_> Apparently my recent Facebook post was "aggressive".
05:44:09 <pikhq_> Because simply saying "I am atheist" is... In some way an affront to people?
05:44:42 <Sgeo> Someone said that in private?
05:45:13 <pikhq_> Mom trying to advise me of a potential shit storm.
05:45:48 <Bike> well, she's right about that much
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06:53:01 <Gracenotes> where abouts are you? Not a major city, I take it
06:54:52 <pikhq_> Gracenotes: Colorado Springs, CO
06:58:56 <Gracenotes> Last I was here was a few years ago...
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07:12:45 <Gregor> pikhq_: I suspect that the “aggressive” part was “pitchforks on the right, high fives on the left”, particularly because I imagine those directions were not chosen arbitrarily.
07:13:12 <pikhq_> Actually, I did not see the political implications of that until literally just now.
07:15:43 <coppro> man, my department sort of idolizes bill tutte
07:42:38 <Sgeo> I should probably eat
07:42:50 <Sgeo> I already ate today, 3 slices of pizza and ice cream, but should really eat dinner.
07:45:00 <shachaf> kmc: I heard 99¢ pizza is back to 99¢. :-(
07:48:48 <Sgeo> I'm actually bored on the Internet right now.
07:48:51 <Sgeo> It's a weird feeling.
07:50:24 <Sgeo> HELLO KALLISTI
07:51:25 <Sgeo> CURIOUS AS TO WHY YOU ARE SHOUTING VIA YOUR NICk
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07:58:44 <HackEgo> ztirf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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08:08:03 <KALLISTI> I have an idea for another esoteric language
08:08:19 <zzo38> KALLISTI: What idea? Write in list of ideas
08:08:41 <shachaf> The list of ideas is the topic, right?
08:09:16 <zzo38> List of ideas is one of the articles in esolang wiki. However, I mean mention your idea on the IRC too if you like to do so.
08:16:16 <KALLISTI> shachaf: kind of a mixture between traditional expression based languages, with a tree writing system
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08:54:38 <Sgeo> This seems to be an odd channel to be in for someone who hates esolangs
08:54:46 <Sgeo> Although, since it's always off topic, maybe not.
08:55:22 <Sgeo> *almost always. The same way that a random number between 0 and 1 will almost never be exactly 0.5
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10:31:00 <Sgeo> Minor Clojure annoyance time:
10:31:06 <Sgeo> (channel* & {:keys [grounded? permanent? transactional? messages description meta], :as options})
10:31:22 <Sgeo> I really don't need to know the exact details of the destructuring that some function uses on its arguments
10:31:39 <Sgeo> That :as options thing is not something that the user of a function would really care about
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15:39:11 <hagb4rd|outoford> if you ever want to see what happens if the women ever take control come to cologne on a 11.11.
15:41:52 <hagb4rd|outoford> it's like in the story of sir galahad in the movie of monty python
15:54:48 <kmc> what happens on 11.11?
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16:26:26 <Arc_Koen> kmc: I guess you better not wear a tie, or lace-up shoes
16:34:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I have no idea what the hell hagb4rd|outoford is doing, other than that it's in rather poor taste.
16:37:49 <kmc> ah yeah i have monday off of work for this same reason
16:45:10 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_Day#Similar_observances_outside_the_Commonwealth
16:45:59 <kmc> in the USA it's Veteran's Day; we have a separate Memorial Day too
16:46:44 <kmc> i guess the latter is for the dead and the former is for all veterans
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18:48:30 <kmc> i have joined ##posix and ##unix
18:49:06 <kmc> not affiliated with the Open Group, the Organisation internationale de normalisation, or SCO Group
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19:18:56 <ion> How to destroy the celebration with a trumpet http://youtu.be/QxnY2SWZTvk
19:19:45 <fizzie> We have a "Kaatuneiden muistopäivä" ("memorial day for the fallen") for people who died in any wars or such involving Finland, but it's strategically placed on a Sunday (third Sunday of May) so as to not result in any extra time off.
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19:42:53 <fizzie> Oh, and today was also "Father's Day" here; and apparently in Estonia, Sweden, Norway and Iceland too; even though most of the rest of the world has it as the third Sunday of June instead.
19:44:45 <fizzie> "More phone calls are made in the United States during Mother's Day than during Father's Day, but the percentage of collect calls on Father's Day is much higher, making it the busiest day of the year for collect calls."
19:45:22 <olsner> fathers calling their kids collect as a subtle way of reminding them they should've called?
19:45:46 <zzo38> No, I think it means you work too much.
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19:52:06 <Vorpal> huh, Raspberry Pi lacks an RTC? I guess that means it won't keep time when off? Weird design choice
19:52:36 <fizzie> There are some projects adding one, I believe.
19:52:44 <fizzie> It certainly has enough interfacing options for that.
19:52:59 <fizzie> And I suppose they just didn't want to bother adding a battery on the thing, those are so inelegant.
19:52:59 <Vorpal> don't know, I'm just looking at the specs atm, I'm considering getting a Raspberry Pi
19:53:13 <fizzie> I've got one, and I use it for absolutely nothing.
19:53:23 <fizzie> Also got it like week before they did that 512M upgrade.
19:53:28 <Vorpal> I'm wondering if it can start on power connected, after a power outage or such
19:53:40 <fizzie> It doesn't have an "off" mode.
19:53:44 <fizzie> It's on if it gets power.
19:54:04 <Vorpal> so when you shut it down it displays "please turn off the power now" or such?
19:54:12 <Vorpal> how much did it cost btw?
19:54:32 <fizzie> IIRC shutdown -h just shut the HDMI down, so it didn't display anything.
19:54:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, well how do you unmount stuff before pulling the power?
19:54:58 <Vorpal> will shutdown -h do that at least?
19:55:09 <fizzie> Sure, it'll do that before halting.
19:55:33 <fizzie> It just doesn't "turn off", since it doesn't have a power switch.
19:55:38 <Vorpal> anyway I figured out that I need a matching SD card (that looks complicated to find), a HDMI->DVI converter and a power supply for it to be usable for me
19:55:56 <Vorpal> possibly a case would be a good idea
19:56:13 <fizzie> And it cost that official price, $35, plus some amount of money for the delivery. I forget exactly. It was from Element 14, anyway, and it was a friend ordering a bunch, so I wasn't directly involved in the order.
19:56:25 <Vorpal> I do have a use case for it though, but one that require more than a 4 GB SD card by far. 16 or 32 probably
19:56:40 <FireFly> Should be available in a local store
19:56:44 <fizzie> I just used a scrappy no-name 2G SD card that I had from Italy somewhere.
19:56:49 <atriq> I got bored and my computer was refusing to connect to the internet, so I started writing a brainfuck interpreter
19:57:14 <fizzie> (Bought it when running out of storage taking photos thereabouts.)
19:57:17 <Vorpal> FireFly, those parts? Probably, maybe not the SD card though, it seems it is is very picky with series
19:57:52 <FireFly> I just plugged in a card I had at home, and it worked like a charm
19:58:07 <Vorpal> anyway how does linux keep the system time with no RTC?
19:58:19 <FireFly> In fact I think I run it on a microSD card through a converter
19:58:21 <fizzie> Uh.. it's not like x86 Linux would use the RTC for timekeeping either.
19:58:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, sure but what does it use instead?
19:59:06 <olsner> I think it can pretty much use anything that ticks
19:59:07 <fizzie> I just know the x86 timer sources, and I've forgotten even those; there was at least TSC and HPET timers.
19:59:09 <Vorpal> CPU frequency is not all that stable even when you don't do dynamic frequency stuff
19:59:21 <fizzie> TSC on modern x86 CPUs is invariant.
19:59:38 <Vorpal> HPET is pretty nice as well
20:01:58 <FireFly> Vorpal: http://www.webhallen.com/se-sv/hardvara/159735-sandisk_secure_digital_ultra_16gb seems to work well: http://www.google.com/search?q=raspberry%20pi%20sdsdu-016g-u46
20:02:18 <zzo38> Is there a version with CompactFlash?
20:02:25 <fizzie> As for power, I got my power out of the N900's USB charger so far.
20:02:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah I kind of use my USB charger for my phone
20:02:46 <Vorpal> and my old phones did not do charging by USB
20:02:53 <fizzie> I don't use it all the time, though.
20:03:14 <Vorpal> The plan for my possible Pi would require it being on constantly
20:03:37 <fizzie> For more permanent use I was thinking of getting a suitable powered USB hub; the wiki lists quite a few models that reportedly can do the "provides power for Pi as well as a USB hub for it" thing.
20:03:46 <fizzie> But that's still on the TODO list.
20:04:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, wait, can it use power over the USB-A ports?
20:04:24 <fizzie> No, but you can use one of the USB hub's outgoing ports to provide power to the Pi.
20:04:50 <fizzie> (Okay, technically speaking I believe you can hack it to accept "feedback" power via the USB-A ports too, but that'd be a real kludge.)
20:04:51 <Vorpal> won't it only provide 100 mA unless the device asks for more?
20:05:16 <Vorpal> I thought the power port didn't have any pins except the power ones connected
20:05:49 <fizzie> It doesn't. But if it's a USB-BC dedicated charging port, it should push out something like 1A or more by default.
20:06:02 <Vorpal> also, how fast cards would be useful in the pi, what can the host controller deal with
20:06:09 <Vorpal> would a class 10 card be overkill?
20:06:30 <fizzie> And apparently many hubs are perfectly willing to provide power out to ports that are disconnect w.r.t. D+/D-.
20:06:42 <fizzie> I was thinking I'll just read the wiki and pick some model that's known to work well.
20:07:08 <Vorpal> anyway what would a HDMI->DVI converter cost, I have no monitors with HDMI
20:07:29 <Vorpal> and I won't use the display past initial setup and possible debugging
20:07:39 <fizzie> HDMI-DVI-cables seem to cost about the same as HDMI-HDMI and DVI-DVI cables.
20:07:57 <fizzie> Don't know about adapters, but they should be really cheap according to logic.
20:08:59 <fizzie> Sadly, logic is not always a reliable source when it comes to hardware prices.
20:09:22 <Vorpal> I'm wondering it it requires an active cable
20:09:34 <Vorpal> might be DP->HDMI or DP->DVI that does then
20:09:47 <fizzie> HDMI is just DVI minus the analog and dual-link parts, plus something about digital audio.
20:10:13 <fizzie> DP-to-DVI/HDMI may need an active cable, depending on the source.
20:10:56 <fizzie> I believe many graphics cards have DP connectors that you can connect to DVI/HDMI via passive adapters, since they can provide the TMDS signal over the DP pins.
20:11:44 <fizzie> But there's things like EyeFinity cards with 3*DP where you can connect up to two DVI devices with passive adapters, but the third needs an active one, because the card runs out of suitable clock generators for TMDS output.
20:12:12 <fizzie> (The active DP-to-DVI devices cost an absurd amount of money when I was looking at them.)
20:12:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm I have an AMD card that can drive up to 4 monitors iirc, but it has like 2 DVI (one DVI-I one DVI-D), one DP and one HDMI
20:12:40 <Vorpal> or something weird like that
20:13:22 <fizzie> It sounds somewhat probable that the DP port couldn't drive a passive-adaptor DVI, then, given how many DVI-ish outputs it already has.
20:13:38 <Vorpal> well, I only use a single DVI output currently
20:14:19 <fizzie> "Dual-mode DisplayPort (also known as DisplayPort++[26]) can directly emit single-link HDMI and DVI signals using a simple passive adapter that adjusts for the lower voltages required by DisplayPort."
20:14:33 <atriq> Gimp in Ubuntu Unity is annoying
20:14:41 <fizzie> Apparently they've invented a special logo for that, a DP with a ++ in it.
20:16:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh, well then I know my laptop would need an active adapter too
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20:18:52 <Vorpal> that they even released a version without ethernet is confusing to me
20:19:23 <fizzie> It's officially an educational tool, you don't necessarily need networking for that.
20:19:48 <Vorpal> I thought it was just a super-awesome product
20:20:06 <coppro> is this olpc or something like that
20:20:11 <atriq> Vorpal, you can't go straight from the toolbox to a file menu thingy
20:20:57 <Vorpal> atriq, yeah that is stupid
20:21:28 <atriq> Because it only shows the thingies for the window you're on, and the toolbox is a separate window
20:22:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, so total cost is something like $70 or so when shipping, SD card, power supply, monitor cable, case and so on are included
20:22:23 <Vorpal> not quite as cheap suddenly
20:22:52 <Vorpal> atriq, there are two issues here: 1) unity is terrible 2) gimp has a terrible GUI on *anything*
20:23:25 <fizzie> Vorpal: "-- developed in the UK by the Raspberry Pi Foundation with the intention of stimulating the teaching of basic computer science in schools."
20:23:37 <fizzie> All their public statements have emphasized the education thing.
20:23:41 <FreeFull> If you want a better GUI, use something else
20:25:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: They e.g. didn't include the MPEG2 hw-decode license with the board officially because they didn't have any idea people would actually buy Pi's for media-center use.
20:26:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, how could they have missed that angle?
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20:26:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: I suppose they were just so single-mindedly doing the "cheap computer for schools" angle.
20:27:26 <fizzie> One of the stated reasons for the 512M bump was the unexpected uses people kept putting the thing to.
20:27:52 <Vorpal> well, I would manage on 256M but 512M is certainly a lot nicer
20:28:57 <Vorpal> hrrm, given the lack of RTC, won't it try to fsck on every boot, at least if you use ext3/4
20:29:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh and what filesystem do you use on the card?
20:29:51 <fizzie> It's fixed-fraction shared with the GPU, so it's generally something closer to 192M or 224M of RAM for the system.
20:30:28 <fizzie> And I just put whatever raspbian-installer put there, which was probably ext3; really, since I don't have any use case for it yet, I just put something in there to see that it boots.
20:30:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, fixed fraction? can you configure it with a boot flag?
20:30:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, irc bouncer obviously
20:31:11 <fizzie> Yes, it's configurable but not changeable at "runtime".
20:31:48 <Vorpal> so basically after the initial setup I would configure it to give me a minimum sized display in case I need to debug something, since it will be headless for my use case
20:31:50 <fizzie> And the lowest supported for the GPU even for a headless system is 16M, I believe.
20:32:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway use case ideas: irc bouncer, simple server to ssh into and initiate WOL from to wake up your beefy computer at home
20:32:57 <fizzie> I have my 4*gigE mini-ITX Atom box for IRC/ssh-into/DNS/router/etc. box, though.
20:33:28 <Vorpal> that is probably using several times as much power as the RPi though
20:33:33 <fizzie> Admittedly RPi would use less juice, but getting four network holes into it sounds nontrivial.
20:33:42 <fizzie> Yes, well, kWh's aren't *that* expensive.
20:33:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I have a switch anyway so...
20:34:17 <fizzie> A switch won't firewall anything.
20:34:45 <Vorpal> well duh, I have an ADSL modem with router and such built in as well
20:35:15 <Vorpal> anyway what about VLAN? That would work no?
20:35:50 <Vorpal> you would configure the switch to send everything external to the RPi, let it do the firewall, and resend on a different VLAN tag
20:36:10 <Vorpal> (however at this point your switch is so expensive it isn't worth it any more)
20:36:31 <fizzie> I don't have switches that manageable, and anyway I doubt you could push terribly much traffic over the RPi's USB-100baseT-ethernet hole.
20:36:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, funny thing, my desktop intel express pro gbit whatever networking thingy actually support VLAN
20:36:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, wait, USB? How does USB come into it?
20:37:05 <fizzie> RPi's Ethernet is connected over USB.
20:37:26 <fizzie> It's part of the combined USB hub / Ethernet chip from SMC.
20:38:04 <Vorpal> yeah I thought it was just two features of the same chip
20:38:24 <Vorpal> rather than the ethernet being visible over the USB controller
20:38:35 <fizzie> The A model has a single USB port (on the ARM SoC); the B model has the SMC chip permanently wired into that, and the SMC provides a USB hub with three logical ports, one of which is directly connected to the USB-Ethernet thing.
20:39:59 <Vorpal> well, can't expect USB 3 from that thing
20:40:33 <fizzie> The ARMv6 thing is also a bit of a shame; no NEON or anything.
20:40:52 <Vorpal> true, maybe I should just hold off to a future generation of the RPi
20:41:45 <fizzie> Re VLAN, I am under the impression that most Linux drivers support 802.1q VLANs more or less well; certainly it works well enough for me. (I've got a VLAN for making sure traffic from the Atom box to the webserver laptop doesn't accidentally leak over the VDSL2 pipe, since I don't trust that ZTE piece of crap to do anything correctly.)
20:42:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, how do you set up VLAN under Linux btw?
20:43:44 <fizzie> iproute2's "ip" tool can do it; there was also something earlier, 'vconfig' or something like that.
20:43:59 <Vorpal> is it well documented for ip?
20:44:05 <fizzie> And distro-specific things; I think e.g. Debian's "/etc/network/interfaces" thing has syntax for it.
20:45:05 <fizzie> It's not terribly complicated, at least. ip link add link realif0 name realif0.42 type vlan id 42 and then you can configure the realif0.42 interface and everything sent there will be 802.1q-tagged with the tag 42 and sent over realif0.
20:45:21 <fizzie> (And everything thus tagged coming in from realif0 will instead appear in that interface.)
20:45:49 <Vorpal> how did that help with your atom box though?
20:46:13 <fizzie> Well. The network setup here is such that there's a VDSL2 box in bridging mode, connected to a switch with the server-laptop and the Atom box; the Atom box then isolates that DMZ area from the other network holes it has, namely LAN, wifi and the NAS box.
20:46:59 <fizzie> I was worried that even with local 10/8 range IPs, internal traffic between the server-laptop and whatever's behind the Atom box would leak over the bridging VDSL2 box, since it's such a stupid device.
20:47:22 <Vorpal> but does the switch handle the VLAN tags then?
20:47:51 <fizzie> I made all that go over a VLAN, and configured the VDSL2 box's really poor filtering things never pass any 802.1Q traffic over the DSL link.
20:48:06 <fizzie> Okay, I still need to trust it to do that right, but at least I've made an attempt.
20:48:24 <Vorpal> why not put everything behind the atom box instead?
20:48:35 <Vorpal> and have it DMZ to the server laptop
20:49:03 <Vorpal> and put the NAS and the LAN on a common switch on the inside
20:49:23 <fizzie> I guess that'd be a possible setup; but it sounds like it'd need some slightly trickier configuration, since the server laptop needs to acquire a public IP over DHCP from the ISP.
20:49:42 <Vorpal> oh you have multiple IPs?
20:49:47 <fizzie> Okay, "needs" is in quotes.
20:49:56 <fizzie> They officially allow up to 5 public DHCP ips.
20:50:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, since it is a laptop couldn't you just access it over wifi instead?
20:50:52 <fizzie> I... suppose. Honestly, enabling wifi on it hasn't really even occurred to me. I'm not sure it has working wifi.
20:51:11 <fizzie> It's kind of old, but not *that* old, so... well, it could go either way.
20:51:18 <Vorpal> you could use BT maybe XD
20:51:25 <fizzie> (It's a Pentium-M 1.5 GHz thing.)
20:51:33 <Vorpal> sure, should have wifi
20:53:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, how is the GPIO exposed to user space on the RPi?
20:55:24 <fizzie> I forget exactly; it's some kind of a standard Linux approach to such things.
20:57:00 <Vorpal> hm what real time versions of linux are there...
20:58:31 <fizzie> https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/Documentation/pinctrl.txt -- it drops into this infrastructure, I believe.
20:58:47 <fizzie> (And then you can use standard things to run I2C or whatever over the pins.)
20:59:54 <fizzie> Doesn't seem to talk much about the userspace side of accessing these.
21:00:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, well sure, it isn't exactly difficult to do I2C or whatever over plain GPIO by yourself. I have done that on AVR
21:00:38 <fizzie> Probably not, but it's nice not to reinvent wheels so much, sometimes.
21:01:03 <fizzie> Also, server-laptop's lspci doesn't list anything too wifi-ish, though I did learn something I didn't know before, namely that there's a firewire port on it somewhere.
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21:02:34 <fizzie> So if I had a suitable cable, I could run that firewire networking... except that the Atom board probably doesn't do firewire.
21:02:54 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever managed to actually use a firewire-connected anything at home.
21:04:01 <Vorpal> I used firewire networking at one point to a desktop with only 100 mbit ethernet
21:04:07 <Vorpal> sped up file transfer a lot
21:04:32 <Vorpal> (I was regularly transferring several GB off it at that point
21:04:52 <fizzie> We had two firewire-capable laptops with us in Belgium, and only one Ethernet cable for the hotel's Interweb connection.
21:05:08 <fizzie> The wifi was a bit iffy in the room, so had to share the network connection over ad-hoc wifi.
21:05:27 <fizzie> Since we didn't have a firewire cable for using that instead.
21:06:09 <fizzie> Not that the hotel's intertubes connection was fast enough for it to matter all that much.
21:06:29 <Vorpal> firewire is getting kind of rare these days :/
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21:07:05 <fizzie> How's it going with Thunderbolt? Still anywhere except some iComputers?
21:09:20 <fizzie> This laptop's FireWire port is some kind of a "mini" connector.
21:09:58 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FireWire_cables.jpg the leftmost one.
21:10:12 <fizzie> I have a vague feeling the iBook had a full-size port.
21:10:21 <Vorpal> lucky for me I have a mini-to-fullsize cable
21:13:47 <fizzie> It's kind of funny that the S/PDIF optical-out on this thing seems to be always-on, so if you put anything to the right of the laptop, it's illuminated with a red glow from one of the 3.5mm audio jacks; the one that has the dual-purpose optical-S/PDIF out in it.
21:14:03 <fizzie> At least it's easy to remember which jack to plug it in by just putting a hand next to them all.
21:14:37 <fizzie> Also it goes dark if I mute the sound, which is funny.
21:16:06 <zzo38> At least I have seen devices with optical audio are red even when off, so I don't know why it would be dark if muted.
21:16:32 <fizzie> It'd probably be red even if it were sending silence; I guess the driver turns the whole transmitter off somehow.
21:18:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, this is the server laptop?
21:18:39 <Vorpal> I guess muting is a reasonable idea then
21:19:00 <fizzie> No, it was the... uh, laptop-laptop.
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21:20:14 <fizzie> Though for all I know the server-laptop could do the same thing; it does have on-board audio, after all.
21:20:47 <fizzie> Come to think of it, it probably has built-in speakers too; I mean, it *is* a laptop.
21:21:38 <fizzie> Well, you never know when the capability to remotely make a noise in that room could come in handy.
21:22:41 <fizzie> The SparcStation 5 had a rather impressive built-in speaker; I wasn't aware of that incidentally, and got quite a scare when I thought I'd just out of curiosity try to play an audio file.
21:23:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, you have a sparcstation?
21:23:34 <fizzie> It's been in the basement for quite a while, but yes.
21:24:07 <fizzie> It was my main router/IRC box for several years.
21:25:09 <Vorpal> why did you stop using it for that?
21:25:42 <fizzie> That, and it has (at least) two terribly loud fans, and I slept like two metres from it while in the one-room student apartment.
21:27:37 <Vorpal> impressive you managed that
21:28:02 <fizzie> These days I don't even have a monitor I could display its console on, since I got rid of the big hulking CRT.
21:28:19 <Vorpal> wow the RPi boot via the GPU. Weird
21:28:57 <fizzie> I've got a "Sun 13w3 to 4xBNC" cable for it, but it needs a CRT screen that has the BNC connectors and can do combined H/V sync.
21:29:11 <Vorpal> what do you mean "combined H/V sync"?
21:29:18 <Vorpal> same sync for horizontal and vertical?
21:29:32 <fizzie> Single wire for it; I don't know how it works.
21:29:32 <Vorpal> and it counts the number of syncs to know where it is?
21:29:45 <fizzie> It could be a different kind of pulse.
21:29:48 <atriq> The haskell tag on Tumblr has too much rugby
21:31:17 <fizzie> I really don't know; anyway, the CRT I had handled it fine. According to specs, it supported separate H/V sync (5xBNC, like VGA has), combined H/V sync (4xBNC), and even sync-on-green (3xBNC) reportedly used by some workstations.
21:33:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, you don't have that monitor any more?
21:33:27 <Vorpal> how will you ever use your sparcstation then?
21:33:55 <fizzie> It can do serial console just fine.
21:34:12 <fizzie> But I suppose I shall never see the fancy font any more.
21:34:35 <fizzie> Fancy compared to 8x16 VGA, that is.
21:34:55 <fizzie> Something like 12x22 and a correspondingly higher resolution.
21:35:15 <fizzie> The bitmaps are of course available from the Internet.
21:35:47 <elliott> "As an aside, I also think the lower-right panel is misleading. A betting decision depends not just on probabilities but also on utilities. If the sun as gone nova, money is worthless. Hence anyone, Bayesian or not, should be willing to bet $50 that the sun has not exploded."
21:35:57 <fizzie> And I still have the Type 5 keyboard, but that's not very useful without a monitor for the actual console.
21:36:53 <atriq> elliott, bet you all the american currency I have that the sun hasn't exploded
21:37:58 <FireFly> I bet you a nonzero amount of american currency that the sun hasn't exploded
21:38:22 <Vorpal> hm there is info on overclocking the RPi, but nothing on underclocking it
21:38:34 <Vorpal> IMO it doesn't need to run at 700 MHz when the load is low
21:41:13 <atriq> elliott, it's 0.01
21:41:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://wiki.stocksy.co.uk/wiki/Raspberry_Pi_Internet_in_a_box#Frequency_Scaling says that you can have it do the usual ondemand scaling at least for the [100 MHz, 700 MHz] range.
21:42:32 <fizzie> (Apparently the "turbo mode" can also go downwards and not only upwards.)
21:43:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm what are the steps here I wonder
21:44:44 <fizzie> Also, now that you spoke of the monitor issue, it's borderline possible there's also a native 13W3-connector monitor that'd work with the SparcStation in the same basement storage locker. I think the SGI Indy came with one, and I don't recall getting rid of it.
21:45:17 <Vorpal> you have an SGI Indy too?
21:45:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, why did you buy those expensive workstations?
21:46:00 <olsner> he probably got them used for almost-free
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21:48:41 <fizzie> The SparcStation came from an auction by a quirky company (Damicon Kraa) specializing in Sun stuff (in those days), and I think it cost somewhere around 100 eur.
21:49:12 <fizzie> And the Indy was completely free, surplus from the university when they got rid of them; it used to be in a classroom.
21:50:27 <fizzie> Also some guy in the Internet mailed me a SS5 motherboard with a faster CPU and an SBUS fast-ethernet-and-SCSI card for some ridiculously cheap price.
21:50:53 <fizzie> It might've even been some guy from this weird IRC channel called "#esoteric".
21:51:17 <atriq> Those guys are weird
21:51:34 <FireFly> "weird" is a rather fitting word
21:52:09 <atriq> I'm only the 25th top poster on the IWC forums!
21:52:13 <atriq> I used to be 24th!
21:52:28 <fizzie> Very soon you won't be in the top 25 at all.
21:53:20 <atriq> It's not too late!
21:53:24 <atriq> I can make more posts!
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22:04:43 <HackEgo> ztirf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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22:50:06 <zzo38> Do you know how fast the clock speed of OpenCores Amber core is? I will need to know this.
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22:51:02 <zzo38> Actually, more precisely, I would need to know how such things are figured out.
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22:51:51 <pikhq_> Traditionally, Chinese abacii were hexadecimal.
22:52:15 <kmc> zzo38: doesn't it come down to the physical gate delay of whatever system you synthesize it in?
22:52:19 <zzo38> They are? I didn't know that.
22:52:50 <kmc> generally with FPGAs it's hard to say the max clock speed a priori because it depends on how all the gate layout and scheduling of shared interlinks goes
22:53:00 <pikhq_> Yes, they were designed so each column represented numbers 0 through 15.
22:53:43 <zzo38> kmc: I would think so, but I don't know how you calculate it from that. The documentation for Amber says it is for Xilinx Spartan6, so I may use that at first until it is available to port it to a open-source FPGA, one-time-programmable FPGA, and/or ASIC.
22:54:37 <zzo38> Since it would have to be modified to work with different kind of FPGA anyways than Xilinx Spartan6, as far as I can tell.
22:55:32 <zzo38> pikhq_: I suppose you can still make up the hexadecimal abacus if you want to have one like that, though.
22:59:40 <zzo38> kmc: Do you know of Xilinx Spartan6 supports one-time-programmable? I would prefer to use one-time-programmable if possible, since it would not be useful to reprogram it if the FPGA is not open-source.
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00:44:58 <Phantom_Hoover> should we really have my tumblr up there when it hasn't been updated in a month
00:47:10 <hagb4rd> i mean of course we can change it
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01:05:15 <tswett> You know, it sure is weird that TINCSOATUDTNN.
01:05:49 <tswett> That's some heady shit.
01:06:48 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:07:19 <monqy> elliott: you got me by way of sending me a message after i had already checked
01:11:06 <kmc> Showing results for TINY STUDENT
01:11:07 <kmc> No results found for TINCSOATUDTNN
01:11:13 <kmc> is that some kind of ioctl
01:11:16 <Bike> there is no such thing as a...?
01:11:23 <tswett> There is no computable set of axioms that uniquely defines the natural numbers.
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01:19:02 <elliott> tswett: would you like to tell us another 1000 times
01:19:08 <elliott> you could compete with Sgeo talking about clojure
01:20:39 <tswett> There is no computable set of axioms that uniquely defines the natural numbers.
01:21:57 <tswett> I don't really have anything else to say.
01:25:34 <monqy> what do they say, "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all"
01:25:48 <monqy> how do you think the natural numbers feel about that
01:29:45 <hagb4rd> good tswett just keeps us aware of the wonders in this world
01:31:09 <tswett> I don't believe I've hurt the natural numbers' feelings by saying this about them.
01:40:55 <hagb4rd> guess nobody likes to be calculable at all
01:42:04 <tswett> But hm. How's this as a definition of the natural numbers...
01:42:50 <tswett> Zero is a natural number. Every natural number has a successor. The successors of distinct natural numbers are distinct. Zero is not the successor of any natural number. No natural numbers exist except as required by the preceding statements.
01:43:16 <tswett> That is not, of course, a set of axioms in first-order logic
01:45:35 <elliott> i'm having the strangest feeling of deja vu here tswett
01:46:44 <elliott> it's almost as if you've said the exact same thing before
01:48:22 <hagb4rd> but nevertheless.. what was this clojore thing? :p
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01:49:03 <Sgeo> I'm not in the mood to Python after a day of Clojure
01:49:10 <Sgeo> But Pythoning is more important right now
01:49:47 <Sgeo> Or, I guess I could use another language as long as it runs on the server I have access too... unfortunately, the JVM doesn't work on it. And I'd rather use a language the other people in my group have a hope of understanding.
01:53:17 <kmc> python is fine
02:00:03 <elliott> looks like sgeo has the lead so far
02:02:13 <tswett> My "axioms" almost seem well-defined, but I wonder if they're actually meaningful within any system of logic.
02:02:27 <kmc> is there a contest to mention clojure the most times
02:03:03 <monqy> it's clojure vs natural numbers
02:03:12 <tswett> The contest is whether Sgeo can mention Clojure more times than I mention the fact that TINCSOATUDTNN.
02:03:25 <monqy> oh wow you abbreviated it
02:03:30 <Bike> you've established a cutesy nickname, that must give you extra points
02:03:48 <monqy> so that's what tincoastsutugjhgjgjlglj is
02:04:11 <tswett> It's pronounced "Tincture Sud Tune", of course.
02:04:19 <Bike> sgeo should get an I'd Rather Be Clojurin' bumper sticker to keep up, maybe
02:07:45 <tswett> Except no, I think it's actually pronounced "tiny student".
02:08:21 <elliott> <elliott> tswett: would you like to tell us another 1000 times
02:08:21 <elliott> <elliott> you could compete with Sgeo talking about clojure
02:08:55 <tswett> But yes, what type of logic would that be? "No natural numbers exist except as required by the preceding statements." The naive way to do that would be to say something like, for all X, if the statement "the preceding statements imply that X exists" is not necessary, then X does not exist.
02:09:17 <tswett> Of course, "X exists" is not a meaningful predicate.
02:10:56 <Bike> isn't it just "the smallest set satisfying these axioms"
02:11:26 <tswett> Well, the problem I have with that is that now you have to define "set".
02:12:36 <Bike> You were talking about what natural numbers are anyway. What the set of natural numbers is.
02:13:04 <tswett> So? I can define a concept that happens to be a set without also defining the word "set".
02:13:43 <tswett> At least, I can try to.
02:14:12 <tswett> Really, we don't need to define the word "set". But, given a collection, it would be really nice to have a definition of a subset of that collection.
02:15:21 <tswett> Lessee, the thing that comes to mind is, "Subsets of a collection C are those things such that if C can be partitioned into two subsets D and E, then each subset of C corresponds to a pair (a subset of D, a subset of E)".
02:15:29 <tswett> No, that's pretty much useless.
02:15:49 <tswett> It doesn't say that the collection {x, y} has more than two subsets.
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03:25:51 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ activity activity-full admin all-dicts arr ask b52s babel bf bid botsnack brain bug check choice-add choose clear-messages compose devils dice dict dict-help djinn djinn-add
03:25:51 <lambdabot> djinn-clr djinn-del djinn-env djinn-names djinn-ver do docs dummy easton echo elements elite eval fact fact-cons fact-delete fact-set fact-snoc fact-update faq farber flush foldoc forget fortune
03:25:51 <lambdabot> fptools free freshname ft gazetteer get-shapr ghc girl19 google googleit gsite gwiki hackage help hitchcock hoogle hoogle+ id ignore index instances instances-importing irc-connect jargon join karma
03:25:51 <lambdabot> karma+ karma- karma-all keal kind learn leave let list listall listchans listmodules listservers localtime localtime-reply lojban map messages messages? more msg nazi-off nazi-on nixon oeis offline
03:25:51 <lambdabot> oldwiki palomer part paste ping pl pl-resume pointful pointless pointy poll-add poll-close poll-list poll-remove poll-result poll-show pretty print-notices protontorpedo purge-notices quit quote rc
03:25:53 <lambdabot> read reconnect remember repoint run shootout show slap smack source spell spell-all src tell thank you thanks thx ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete topic-cons topic-init topic-null topic-snoc
03:25:55 <lambdabot> topic-tail topic-tell type undefine undo unlambda unmtl unpf unpl unpointless uptime url v vera version vote web1913 what where where+ wiki wn world02 yarr yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw yow
03:26:08 <Sgeo> Maybe I'll be able to focus while I eat?
03:29:38 <zzo38> I thought of a idea, to make a type system which instead of the logic is based on being fixed, you can define your own rules for them.
03:29:53 <zzo38> I don't know how it would work, though (I don't even know if it works at all).
03:44:50 <zzo38> Another idea is some type system based on regular expressions, with a few things added, and including replacements; the units here are constructors and containers though.
03:52:22 <zzo38> You could then add various kind of anchors and other operators, have containers attached to constructors be ordered or disordered, have a forbidding operator, laziness operator, allow types to share constructors, have one-way, have one-use, implicit type casting automatically works, etc
03:57:05 <zzo38> Another strange thing perhaps is, a constructor can be defined to be idempotent or to commute with another constructor, and you could have two types with the same constructor where it commutes in one type but in the other it doesn't commute, or is idempotent in one but not the other, etc
04:04:58 <kmc> controlling industrial cutting laser over X forwarding
04:05:01 <kmc> LIKE A BOSS
04:05:34 <shachaf> I thought you had a consumer cutting laser.
04:06:08 <kmc> doesn't sound as cool
04:06:22 <kmc> i will claim it's an industral laser because of the extreme user-unfriendliness of the control system
04:09:00 <zzo38> As well as defining addition of types at the type level, with this system you would also be able to define addition of values at the type level too.
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05:04:30 <zzo38> The skill generator command is SKI and I have also added the lookup table command is LUT
05:05:44 <zzo38> I could implement a command for scaling the total of a list of numbers, which together with LUT could be used for implementing Goldilock's method.
05:16:42 <quintopia> how hard would it be to make it 4e
05:21:59 <zzo38> I don't know. This SKI command is a command which is a part of FurryScript, and the options it supports should be sufficient for D&D3.5e and for Icosahedral RPG; maybe it is sufficient for 4e as well, and if not then you can tell me what options to add.
05:22:32 <elliott> comex: "I order ais523 to place a large notice on eir home page stating that eir cashing condition was inaccurate." <3
05:24:15 <zzo38> Options at this point are: C=cost I=increase-cost M=max-value c=count d=dice r=removal-chance v=initial-value. In addition, you specify the number of skill points in total, and the skill names are allowed to contain templates.
05:25:01 <Sgeo> shachaf, http://agoranomic.org/
05:25:08 <Sgeo> (Note: Page may be out of date)
05:26:25 <zzo38> The "C" option is used to implement cross-class skills in D&D3.5e; Icosahedral doesn't use class/cross-class skills. The "d" option makes something resembling the skill advancement in ADOM. The "c" option makes it more likely to select that skill, the "r" option makes it less likely the more it is selected, the "v" gives you skill ranks for free.
05:28:13 <zzo38> I forget how 4e skills work so if you know, then you might know if these options are sufficient for that purpose or not. Do you know?
05:36:50 <zzo38> But I do have some idea of additional options to add: mutually exclusive skills, skills spendable in other skills, multiple classes of skills, skills that lock or unlock other skills, priorities, skill levels, etc
05:45:15 <zzo38> quintopia: What do you think of this? Is it sufficient for what you are doing? If not, what would it need to make it sufficient for such purposes?
05:49:22 <quintopia> in general 4e is simpler than 3.5e
05:49:43 <quintopia> so if it uses templates, it should be possible just to modify the template to get it working for 4e
05:50:22 <zzo38> Yes I know. However it still does not answer my question completely. These "templates" are the same templates as the rest of FurryScript and may or may not be what you need.
05:51:10 <zzo38> What I mean is you can write a skill list with options specified, and the skill names can contain templates.
05:51:32 <zzo38> (These templates are separate from the options, and you can use both.)
05:52:47 <zzo38> I seem to remember that 4e still has class/cross-class skills but not skill ranks (Icosahedral RPG is the opposite; it has skill ranks but not class/cross-class skills).
05:54:34 <zzo38> But maybe I misremember it, or maybe I missed something.
05:55:25 <zzo38> Note that FurryScript has no skill list built-in; you still have to write the skill list yourself.
05:56:17 <zzo38> Do these answer any of your questions at all, or does it confuse you?
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06:06:16 <quintopia> everything about furryscript confusses me
06:13:23 <zzo38> Did you read the documentation (and source-codes if necessary)?
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07:52:06 <quintopia> zzo38: i read it and read examples and still am confused
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07:53:42 <zzo38> quintopia: Explain what part you misunderstood?
07:54:29 <quintopia> zzo38: how the interpreter actually works. how to write my own scripts.
07:54:40 <quintopia> i gather it's some kind of stack machine
07:55:05 <quintopia> i don't quite understand how programs are organized and how execution order is determined and such
07:55:48 <zzo38> It is executed from beginning to end; blocks [] are subroutine blocks which do not execute until called
07:56:39 <zzo38> Any strings (not any other types) on the stack when the program ends is done implicitly run GEN on them and then is send each one to output. This is the only way to make the program to output anything (except for debugging commands).
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08:31:11 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy stuff
08:37:35 <shachaf> monqy: Can I have a fortune?
08:38:10 <monqy> why do i have fortune installed
08:38:45 <monqy> is `fortune a thing
08:38:59 <HackEgo> .-. \ ||`7.V\/| \ / .--.| '-, \ _/ / _ <__ \ (_>( -.- \ /==\ \ '`. -(_/ //|==.|\ \ `> --', |--.|=\ \ _\V|/|/(/||==-|.=\ \ ->. _.-'-'|.==|.-'| \ _7__| u _u|==.|_.-|
08:39:58 <elliott> monqy: why wouldn't you have fortune installed. except for all the standard fortune sets being bad
08:44:46 <fizzie> `run fortune -o # offend me, machine!
08:44:50 <HackEgo> Little Mary on the ice, \ Went out to have a frisk, \ Now wasn't little Mary nice, \ Her pretty *?
08:45:03 <coppro> ahahahahahahahahahahah
08:45:16 <coppro> elliott: also you i think
08:46:24 <coppro> sgeo normally informs people of this
08:46:57 <coppro> because I was doing other things
08:47:23 <coppro> I was taken by surprise by the second page though
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08:48:09 <monqy> elliott: were you too ?
08:49:06 <elliott> monqy: is the joke that i haven't read homestuck in aeons
08:49:38 <coppro> I am not sure whether to expect a psyche
08:49:56 <monqy> elliott: that's like at least half the joke yeah
08:50:44 <coppro> I also love the thememing of the planets
08:51:25 <monqy> Sgeo: what did you think ?
08:51:34 <coppro> though I think argon feels left out :(
08:51:48 <Sgeo> The second page was surprising
08:52:19 <coppro> yeah but what comes after?
08:52:47 <coppro> the music at LoTaK is fantastic
08:55:09 <monqy> elliott: you should see this, i hear it's surprising and fantastic
08:57:17 <coppro> I wonder if skaia itself counts as argon or something
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09:04:49 <coppro> (since it's in the middle)
09:06:32 <Sgeo> I think some people are hoping it isn't for real, but I'm kind of hoping it is
09:06:48 <monqy> nooooooooooooooodl, sorry
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09:14:13 <ion> I couldn’t find the full BeagleBone pin information in a machine readable format anywhere, so i did it myself: https://github.com/ion1/beagle_bone_pins
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10:19:06 <zzo38> Do you know if GNU C allows a variable declaration to be an unnamed union?
10:20:28 <zzo38> And, if you have a question about FurryScript, please write it in details in the http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Zzo38/FurryScript
10:26:53 <fizzie> GNU C does allow unnamed unions as an extension in pre-C11 modes, yes, if I recall correctly.
10:27:21 <fizzie> Er, that is, allows unnamed union members.
10:27:34 <fizzie> I think anything will allow a tagless union variable declaration.
10:28:11 <fizzie> ("Unnamed" is perhaps a bit vague.)
10:29:16 <fizzie> If you mean the kinds of unnamed unions that are used as struct/union members, I don't think it allows that as a variable declaration.
10:30:37 <fizzie> In other words, struct s { union { int x; double y; }; }; is fine, as is union { int x; double y; } u; but not plain union { int x; double y; }; outside of a struct or an union declaration.
10:32:28 <zzo38> Are they going to change it so that it is allowed?
10:33:20 <zzo38> Does anyone else want such feature?
10:38:39 <fizzie> Sounds slightly unlikely. I suppose the desired semantics would be the same as union { int x; double y; } u; except allowing plain x and y as opposed to u.x and u.y in the scope where the declaration is visible?
10:39:10 <zzo38> Yes, so x and y have the same address, too.
10:45:18 <fizzie> It is possible that "they" think it would be potentially too surprising; as opposed to the variant where there is at least some explicit indication that the two variables are in an union.
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10:51:36 <zzo38> It wouldn't seem too surprising to me, at least.
10:53:08 <zzo38> You could use macros in some cases, but such things lacks the scope, and macros cannot define other macros.
10:56:29 <zzo38> Actually I think declaring unnamed structures as variables should also be allowed in order to force them to be grouped together if the address is being used in such a way.
10:57:22 <fizzie> Personally I'm willing to just write the "foo." prefix in such a case.
10:59:32 <zzo38> Yes that is one way, although it may fail with some uses of macros, and anyways it seem to me that it ought to be allowed, by how the others worked.
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11:06:09 <fizzie> I suppose it depends on whether you see it as a feature of a struct/union declaration ("leaving out the name allows the members to bubble up to the enclosing scope") or as a feature of a struct/union *member* declaration ("leaving out the name pulls up the members to this scope"); the way it's specified is closer to the latter.
11:07:28 <fizzie> Incidentally, here's two C features I've never seen used "in the wild"; any spottings of these elsewhere? struct bf { int bf1 : 1; int : 0; int bf2 : 1; }; and int f(int n, int ary[*]); int f(int n, int ary[n]) { ... }
11:08:07 <zzo38> I have not seen it.
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11:10:19 <fizzie> Regarding the latter, it's funny that int f(int a, int not_a, int ary[a]); int f(int a, int nota, int ary[not_a]) { ... } is perfectly legal -- in a function declaration that's not a definition any non-constant sizes are taken as if "[*]" were written there instead.
11:15:04 <zzo38> Would my ^+| and ^-&~ operators be useful ever for hardware description?
11:18:57 <zzo38> I mean the ^+| acts like ^ or | or + but is undefined if the operands share any bits set; the ^-&~ is undefined if any bits set in right operand are clear in the left operand.
11:20:22 <fizzie> Are... are those the symbols for the operators?
11:21:13 <zzo38> They are symbols I made up because I don't know of the others. Probably ^-&~ is no good, maybe -&~^ is better?
11:21:53 <zzo38> At least in C; in other programming languages it might be OK.
11:22:48 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you use Control.Lens?
11:24:25 <zzo38> shachaf: No, not at this time. Maybe later, though, if I find to use it.
11:25:13 <zzo38> (Actually I think I am wrong about ^-&~ being no good, now that I think of it.)
11:26:15 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like Bazaar?
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11:32:35 <FireFly> fizzie: I'm pretty sure the bitfields-in-struct thing is mentioned in K&R, but that's not exactly in the wild. Incidentally, "why aren't these used very often?" was my first thought when I read about them
11:33:18 <FireFly> It seems to me like a cleaner approach than using and/or to mask out bits in an int
11:33:51 <fizzie> FireFly: I've seen bitfields; what I haven't seen is the "int : 0;" part.
11:34:51 <fizzie> It "indicates that no further bit-field is to be packed into the unit in which the previous bit-field, if any, was placed."
11:36:09 <fizzie> 13:35 <fizzie> ,cc size_t size1 = sizeof (struct { int bf1 : 1; int bf2 : 1; }), size2 = sizeof (struct { int bf1 : 1; int : 0; int bf2 : 1; });
11:36:12 <fizzie> 13:36 <candide> fizzie: <no output: size1 = 4; size2 = 8>
11:47:46 <kmc> that's wacky
11:47:52 <kmc> what does [*] do?
11:51:00 <shachaf> kmc: Did you ever look at Control.Lens? "pretty nifty, if i do say so myself"
11:53:53 <shachaf> Especially Traversals and all that.
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11:57:22 <fizzie> kmc: "If the size is * instead of being an expression, the array type is a variable length array of unspecified size, which can only be used in declarations or type names with function prototype scope [FOOTNOTE: Thus, * can only be used in function declarations that are not definitions (see 6.7.6.3).]; such arrays are nonetheless complete types."
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12:11:24 <ion> http://youtu.be/tqUvKO8ktJk
12:23:10 <kmc> this differs from a[] because it's a VLA rather than a plain array?
12:24:08 <olsner> or not, because array arguments are always actually pointer arguments?
12:24:38 <fizzie> It differs because it's a VLA, yes.
12:27:14 <fizzie> Possibly it might not matter in the case I pasted, where the "array of type" is adjusted to "pointer of type", but it matters with a more complicated declarator.
12:31:35 <fizzie> E.g. you can write int f(int n, int a[n][n]) or equivalently int f(int n, int (*a)[n]) and a suitable prototype for f would be also int f(int n, int (*a)[*]); but having int f(int n, int (*a)[]) { ... } wouldn't work.
12:34:05 <fizzie> For one thing, as mentioned a[*] is a complete type while a[] is not.
12:34:44 <fizzie> 14:34 <fizzie> ,cc int f(int n, int a[][]);
12:34:44 <fizzie> 14:34 <candide> fizzie: error: array type has incomplete element type
12:34:44 <fizzie> 14:34 <fizzie> ,cc int f(int n, int a[*][*]);
12:34:44 <fizzie> 14:34 <candide> fizzie: Success (no output).
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12:37:34 <fizzie> FWIW, I haven't seen the int f(int n[static 42]) { ... } form in the wild either.
12:39:16 <fizzie> ("If the keyword static also appears within the [ and ] of the array type derivation, then for each call to the function, the value of the corresponding actual argument shall provide access to the first element of an array with at least as many elements as specified by the size expression", but it's not like anyone would *check*.
12:46:24 <fizzie> int f(int n[static 10]) { ... }; ... int a[8]; f(a); is undefined behaviour, unlike int f(int n[10]) { ... }; ... int a[8]; f(a); which is only UB if f actually tries to access anything past the end of a.
12:48:25 <fizzie> I'm not sure if anything anywhere will in fact do anything different there; but theoretically speaking the compiler could (in the first case) e.g. speculatively load 10 ints from where the argument points at, and you couldn't blame it for blowing up.
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15:08:02 <atriq> I always keep a roll of sticky tape in the pocket of my shorts
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15:20:33 <fizzie> atriq: To prompt "is that your roll of sticky tape or are you just happy to see me" questions, I suppose?
15:21:20 <atriq> Because I only wear my shorts when cosplaying, and I only cosplay with Homestucks and some of these homestucks have really shoddy horns that need constant repairing
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15:27:09 <atriq> I now cannot stand the sound of clown horns
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16:46:24 <atriq> Why am I listening to Prodigy
16:46:27 <atriq> Who even are Prodigy
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16:48:47 <atriq> Sgeo, did you do the update thingy
16:49:06 <Sgeo> atriq, oops, sorry I left you out
16:49:25 <atriq> I was offline most likely
16:49:35 <atriq> I saw it at about 11 this morning (GMT)
16:51:03 <coppro> I love the phrase "what even is this?" and friends
16:51:10 <coppro> the grammatical structure is hilarious
16:51:45 <atriq> I am literally unable
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16:55:51 <atriq> Demonstrate ungrammatical sentences, evidently
16:56:00 <atriq> Those are quite common on Tumblr
16:56:10 <coppro> I think you did it quite well
16:56:15 <coppro> also what even is tumblr
16:56:26 <atriq> It's an art-themed microblogging website
16:57:34 <atriq> It's like rich-text twitter with images, videos, sound, and no character limit
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16:57:57 <coppro> I know what it is, in theory
16:58:40 <atriq> In that case, your question is like asking "What even is reddit?" or "What even is 4chan?"
16:58:49 <atriq> Which can be weird
16:58:54 <atriq> And can be wonderful
16:59:07 <atriq> So very very wrong.
16:59:21 <atriq> But then you see someone transmorphing a cat and it's all cool
17:17:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: "TI-84 Plus C Silver Edition", a TI-84+ with a 320x240x16bpp color screen: http://www.cemetech.net/news.php?id=539 (not much non-rumoury details).
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17:33:28 <coppro> atriq: so act 6 act 4 eh
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17:36:45 <atriq> Alpha kids' Sburb is survival horror
17:36:53 <atriq> And it's the twelth of April
17:38:20 <Vorpal> hm getting a PS3 controller working on windows appears non-trivial. It works out of the box on Linux. Heck it even works out of the box on my android phone in USB mode, and it is easy to get it to work in bluetooth mode
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18:02:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: I use that thing.
18:02:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: The MotioninJoy driver.
18:02:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's an ad-riddled piece of ugly mess, but it works fine.
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18:17:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm looking at an alternative that seems a lot more basic
18:17:21 <Vorpal> however there is a bit of mess with driver signing
18:17:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, will tell you if it works in a bit
18:18:18 <fizzie> I'm not sure I can be bothered to switch since it works just fine; though admittedly I feel a bit queasy, having it on my system.
18:18:34 <fizzie> It does a rather passable xbox360 emulation for the PS3 controller, which is nice.
18:19:02 <Vorpal> the one I'm testing has a japanese only page, though there is an English readme
18:19:25 <fizzie> Bastion IIRC only worked for a x360 pad; and Sonic Generations has this random malfunction when it comes to any pads that aren't used via XInput aka. anything not a x360.
18:19:35 <fizzie> But the MotioninJoy emulation has so far been fine.
18:19:51 <Vorpal> it looks like malware to me, that is the issue
18:20:12 <Vorpal> anyway I played an snes emulator on my android phone with this thing now, in bluetooth mode even. Works fine.
18:20:47 <fizzie> It works over bluetooth with the N900 just fine, too; I don't recall if I needed to install anything.
18:20:52 <Vorpal> also why does this use miniusb rather than microusb
18:21:15 <fizzie> I have absolutely no idea; my cable is from an old digital camera that also used miniusb.
18:21:28 <Vorpal> I had a mini-usb cable from my bank login thingy
18:21:42 <fizzie> It has one of those large bulky things they sometimes put to cables that presumably do something to rf interference or something.
18:21:52 <fizzie> You know, the kind of cylindrical things.
18:22:07 <fizzie> Something like that, right.
18:22:14 <fizzie> It's in the mini-usb end, it looks real stupid hanging there.
18:22:35 <Vorpal> my camera have that too
18:22:50 <Vorpal> but it is optional, only required for the remote control mode according to the manual
18:23:05 <Vorpal> my camera uses a custom connector on that end of the cable though
18:23:20 <fizzie> The current camera I have has a custom connector too.
18:23:22 <Vorpal> also windows is being slow after boot as usual
18:24:00 <fizzie> The miniusb was from some 1600x1200 pocket-camera bought a decade ago.
18:25:50 <fizzie> Back in... uh, school grades 7-9, I was helping with the PageMakering of the school newspaper; they had a quite early digital camera there.
18:26:02 <fizzie> I forget the resolution, but it recorder on 3.5" floppies of all things.
18:27:11 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Mavica -- I'm pretty sure it was that Mavica MVC-FD5 shown there, or a close relative.
18:27:35 <kmc> fizzie: hum, my gcc rejects "void f(int a[*]);"
18:28:21 <kmc> i'm being dumb
18:28:40 <kmc> yeah, it works
18:29:41 <fizzie> I think it really doesn't have a difference for that "top-level array" case, since the "'array of T' is adjusted to 'pointer to T'" rule takes effect no matter whether it was a VLA or not.
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18:33:03 <fizzie> Apparently the MVC-FD5 had an impressive 640x480 resolution too.
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18:35:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, speaking of ferrite cores, I have a power cable with one of those on
18:35:40 <Vorpal> it is for an external HDD enclosure
18:35:57 <kmc> fizzie: but it matters for a[3][*] ?
18:36:14 <fizzie> kmc: Right; you couldn't have a type a[3][], after all.
18:36:33 <fizzie> (Array element type can't be incomplete.)
18:36:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: The power cable from the transformer to the laptop has one at the transformer end.
18:37:11 <kmc> mm, because it has to know how big it is
18:37:15 <fizzie> I mean, this laptop; not some generic "the laptop".
18:37:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think the hdd one has the core on the HDD end
18:38:18 <fizzie> I wonder if that matters. (Am no electroman.)
18:38:51 <kmc> so a float[4][5] is 20 contiguous floats... but a float[4][*] is four pointers to separate VLAs?
18:38:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm I think windows is ignoring the boot flags I set...
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18:39:07 <Vorpal> in fact bcdedit appears screwy on this computer
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18:39:19 <Vorpal> I have to explicitly give it the path to the bcd file for it to find it
18:39:51 <fizzie> kmc: float[4][*] is a variably modified type, but it's still 4*(something) contiguous floats, and the actual function definition needs to have an actual expression there to specify (something).
18:40:26 <kmc> can that depend on previous parameters?
18:40:35 <kmc> int f(int n, float a[4][n])
18:40:38 <kmc> wow dependent types
18:41:37 <fizzie> There are more restrictions for variably modified types than for regular types; can't have them at file scope and so on.
18:42:36 <fizzie> They also make it possible for sizeof expressions to have side effects, something that wasn't possible earlier.
18:42:53 <kmc> which effects are those?
18:43:15 <fizzie> C. Well, C99 and later.
18:43:16 <Deewiant> sizeof(int[printf("foo\n")]) and/or the like
18:43:27 <fizzie> sizeof (int[i++]) too.
18:44:02 <kmc> but is it possible for the effects to be not define as part of the sizeof expression
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18:44:37 <fizzie> Probably not; once you do int f[foo("bar")]; I don't think "sizeof f" is allowed to re-evaluate foo("bar").
18:44:46 <fizzie> There's also a rule that the side effects can happen, but don't need to happen, if their result is not needed for computing the result of the sizeof.
18:45:06 <kmc> apparently you can also do void f(double a[restrict][5])
18:45:22 <fizzie> The qualifiers-in-[] is kind of funny-looking, yes.
18:45:22 <kmc> which means that a is passed by restricted pointer, I guess
18:46:35 <fizzie> But anyway sizeof (int (*)[i++]) is allowed but not required to increment i, since even though it's a variably modified type, the size of the array is not relevant for computing the size of the pointer.
18:47:40 <Vorpal> hm I think windows is getting either lagged by interrupts or IO for the period 2 to 3 minutes after boot. I had this issue for some time
18:47:53 <Vorpal> but never managed to pull up process explorer before during that period
18:48:10 <kmc> i feel like int a[static 5] was probably added for some super specific reason
18:48:15 <fizzie> 20:48 <fizzie> ,cc int i = 1, j = 1; size_t s = sizeof (int[i++]), t = sizeof (int (*)[j++]);
18:48:18 <fizzie> 20:48 <candide> fizzie: <no output: i = 2; j = 1; s = 4; t = 8>
18:51:19 <kmc> the alternative syntax of "double (* restrict a)[5]" also looks pretty weird
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18:53:58 <fizzie> In C99, the use of the static keyword in: [... double a[static 10], double b[static 10] ...] guarantees that both the pointers a and b provide access to the first element of an array containing at least ten elements. The static keyword also guarantees that the pointer is not NULL and points to an object of the appropriate effective type. It does not, however, guarantee that a and b point to ...
18:54:04 <fizzie> ... unique, non-overlapping objects. The restrict keyword is used for that purpose as in: [... double a[static restrict 10] ...] -- This is information that an optimizer can use, for example, to unroll the loop and reorder the loads and stores of the elements referenced through a and b."
18:54:09 <fizzie> Is all that the rationale says about it.
18:54:28 <fizzie> Loading elements "in advance" is also what I sort of thought of.
18:55:18 <fizzie> Though I suppose regular static analysis should also show that the code is going to load those ten elements in any case, in which case it'd be also legal.
18:56:18 <fizzie> Okay, the example is void fadd(double a[static restrict 10], const double b[static restrict 10]) { int i; for (i = 0; i < 10; i++) { if (a[i] < 0.0) return; a[i] += b[i]; } return; }
18:56:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, wait, what does the static keyword do in that position?
18:56:57 <fizzie> I guess in that case without static you couldn't preload all the elements, just in case a didn't have that many elements but there was a -1.0 before it ended.
18:57:10 <fizzie> Vorpal: "If the keyword static also appears within the [ and ] of the array type derivation, then for each call to the function, the value of the corresponding actual argument shall provide access to the first element of an array with at least as many elements as specified by the size expression."
18:58:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, so it means you say it must be at least that size?
18:58:28 <fizzie> Without static it would be legal to do double a[5] = {1, 2, 3, 4, -1}; double b[10] = {1, 2, 3, 4}; fadd(a, b); since the function actually only accesses up to a[4] and b[3].
18:58:45 <Vorpal> does GCC do anything with this info btw?
18:58:48 <fizzie> But then the optimizer couldn't assume there are always at least 10 elements and reorder the accesses.
18:59:02 <fizzie> Perhaps I'll try the example they give in the rationale. :p
19:00:39 <fizzie> Hrm, it seems to generate identical code with or without static. :/
19:01:13 <kmc> i can imagine it being useful e.g. with vector instructions that load a bunch of data at once
19:01:15 <fizzie> The loop is fully unrolled, but there's that a[i] < 0 test before each access.
19:01:38 <fizzie> Yeah, this could've been vectorized, probably.
19:02:02 <Vorpal> dammit, I can't get the driver signing check disabling to work
19:02:11 <Vorpal> oh well I guess I will have to use that crazy thing
19:02:13 <fizzie> Though you'd also need to guarantee 16-byte alignment somehow for movapd to be legal.
19:02:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, to what degree do you actually have to deal with the ads and such?
19:03:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not much. The settings page has some ads at bottom and left, which you'll need to see when twiddling them.
19:03:29 <fizzie> Changing it from PS3 mode to Xbox360 emulation, for example.
19:03:38 <fizzie> But it's not going to splatter them all over the screen or anything.
19:04:02 <fizzie> It also installs a permanent tray icon for the settings.
19:04:15 <fizzie> (Possibly that's configurable; I haven't bothered since it ends up in the hidden tray icons.)
19:04:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, anything else?
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19:04:31 <kmc> c99 still doesn't have alignment qualifiers does it?
19:04:38 <fizzie> It's there even without the controller connected; it's that permanent.
19:04:39 <kmc> but maybe c11 does?
19:05:17 <fizzie> kmc: C11 has some alignment specifiers, yes.
19:05:35 <fizzie> alignment-specifier: _Alignas ( type-name ) | _Alignas ( constant-expression ).
19:06:44 <fizzie> So you can have int32_t _Alignas (16) sse_friendly_array[8]; or something, perhaps.
19:07:03 <kmc> the famous king Alignas
19:07:23 <fizzie> Or int _Alignas (int) x; for the Deparment of Redundancy Department use case.
19:07:33 <kmc> int _Alignas(char)
19:08:11 <fizzie> _Alignas (type) is equivalent to _Alignas (_Alignof (type)).
19:09:23 <fizzie> And of course void *aligned_alloc(size_t alignment, size_t size); is there for the dynamic folks.
19:15:06 <fizzie> Have to say that C11 _Generic(x, int: fooi, double: foof)(x) is slightly prettier than the existing GCC workaround __builtin_choose_expr(__builtin_types_compatible_p(__typeof__(x), int), fooi, foof)(x) -- okay, the whole idea is a bit iffy, but still.
19:16:13 <Deewiant> They should just put full-on C++ templates in
19:17:22 <fizzie> Type-generic math library!
19:18:08 <fizzie> It even does complexities.
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19:23:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, it doesn't appear "motioninjoy" exports all axes to the OS?
19:23:55 <Vorpal> I mean the sixaxis stuff and what not
19:25:24 <fizzie> Vorpal: The tilts should be there, in PS3 mode.
19:25:45 <Vorpal> okay it seems it overlaps some axies then
19:25:48 <zzo38> The way they improve C are much difference to the ways I think they should be done.
19:26:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: left-right tilt as Rz and front-back tilt as Slider by default, apparently.
19:26:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, it doesn't track L2 and R2 separately either it appears
19:26:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, front-back seems to default to Rx for me
19:26:49 <fizzie> That should be right-stick x, according to this list. Unless I've customized these options.
19:26:57 <kmc> fizzie: so is there any reason to use [*] in your prototype, rather than just using the full size expression?
19:26:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah it is that as well
19:27:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, basically I have overlap
19:27:15 <kmc> maybe the size expression depends on stuff local to the file where the function is defined
19:27:17 <fizzie> And right, L2/R2 seem to go by default into z+ z-, I don't know how that works.
19:27:20 <zzo38> Some things I think GNU are going the better job, such as zero-length arrays, long long in C89, and some (but not all) of their other ideas.
19:27:33 <fizzie> Maybe the custom profile thing could be used to make it more sensible.
19:27:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, should be a separate axis for each?
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19:27:47 <fizzie> Sounds like it'd make more sense, yes.
19:28:06 <Vorpal> I presume windows supports that, since it handles my flight joystick just fine
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19:28:16 <Vorpal> and that shows up as 11 axes and 30+ buttons
19:28:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah, it could just be a deficiency in the driver.
19:28:39 <fizzie> (I haven't ever used the tilts for anything.)
19:29:00 <Vorpal> I would like separate axes for the triggers though
19:29:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: The custom profile axis-dropdown has a "Dial" that doesn't seem to be used for anything in PS3 mode, you could use that for the other trigger.
19:30:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, linux reports the pressure from each of the buttons too in jstest
19:30:21 <Vorpal> seems to be mapped to digital values here
19:30:34 <Vorpal> Axes: 0: 0 1: 0 2: 0 3: 0 4:-32767 5:-32767 6:-32767 7:-32767 8:-32767 9:-32767 10:-32767 11:-32767 12:-32767 13:-32767 14:-32767 15:-32767 16:-32767 17:-32767 18:-32767 19:-32767 20:-32767 21:-32767 22:-32767 23:-32767 24:-32767 25:-32767 26:-32767 27:-32767 Buttons: 0:off 1:off 2:off 3:off 4:off 5:off 6:off 7:off 8:off 9:off 10:off 11:off 12:off 13:off 14:off 15:off
19:30:50 <Vorpal> does everything have an analogue sensor on this thing?
19:30:57 <Vorpal> apart from start and select
19:31:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah, I don't quite know how that work. The custom-profile dropdowns let you select either a button or a pressure-sensitive button, but I don't know how they appear.
19:31:21 <fizzie> I don't think R3 and L3 have pressure-sensitivity either.
19:31:39 <fizzie> But that's about it for the exceptions.
19:31:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, actually where is the L3/R3?
19:31:54 <fizzie> Clicking down the left or right stick.
19:32:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, but yeah this thing exports too few axes
19:33:34 <zzo38> Why don't they just use MIDI?
19:34:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: It might be partially so that Windows games don't get all confused. But I agree that the custom mode should let you just have N axes, one for each pressure-sensitive button if you like.
19:35:59 <Vorpal> also why does the controller only work with the USB3 port under windows...?
19:36:19 <Vorpal> it was the only free one so I used that, now I tried to move it but it won't work there
19:36:38 <fizzie> There's some kind of a thing when it comes to changing ports.
19:37:09 <fizzie> You may need to jump through an extra hoop, rerun something or whatnot.
19:38:01 <fizzie> kmc: You could argue that it's better to use foo[*] since that's how it is interpreted, and if you try to use foo[3*legubniate(n,i,read_pin("G1"))+(zorked((struct p){1,2})?4:8)] in the header file for documentationary reasons, it'll just get out of sync and mislead, since nothing checks. But it's a rather weak justification. Well, except maybe if the expression really looks like *that*.
19:38:48 <fizzie> Still, I'd prefer (int n, foo[n][n]) over (int n, foo[*][*]).
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19:40:07 <fizzie> People who prefer [*] will probably also advocate not putting parameter names in prototypes.
19:40:12 <kmc> i think the "using a static function to compute the size" case is compelling, though
19:40:30 <fizzie> (Since int f(int, int, int, int, int, int) is clearly superior.)
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19:56:20 <soundnfury> fizzie: yeah, but everything's an int, so you don't need the prototype at all because the compiler can guess it!
19:56:30 <soundnfury> (assuming you're some kind of pre-ANSI freakazoid)
20:00:02 <zzo38> Maybe you want to use [*] or [n] in the prototype to affect optimization at the caller?
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20:05:13 <fizzie> That sounds unlikely, since the standard says you must treat [n] in a prototype as if it were replaced by [*], and can't e.g. assume it will be [n] for the function definition.
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20:14:59 <zzo38> Why is it allowed then? Does it have something to do with macros?
20:16:40 <zzo38> Which do you think is better (if either; maybe you think both are horrible), OkCupid or Internet Quiz Engine? They have many similar features but also differences; each has some things the other lacks.
20:17:19 <olsner> have you been discussing this continuously for the last 7 hours?
20:17:46 <zzo38> No. But, have you been? I doubt it.
20:19:02 <zzo38> How to I stop the mouse wheel from moving?
20:19:18 <fizzie> I don't know why the non-[*] version is allowed; but it could be just for people who think it's clearer code that way, like the mentioned parameter names for functions that are also kind of ignored.
20:19:30 <zzo38> But sometimes I accidentally touch it.
20:20:06 <zzo38> fizzie: Perhaps for automatic documentation generators?
20:20:29 <zzo38> Although use with macros could be another reason.
20:27:34 <Sgeo> I think I'm about to have a long running Python script communicate with a PHP script
20:28:04 <olsner> better than only having a PHP script, I guess
20:28:50 <atriq> Clearly the obvious solution is to use C# as an intermediary
20:29:02 <Sgeo> Or maybe I could figure out web.py and hope it works on the machine in question
20:29:27 <Sgeo> Actually, that might not even work, I can't use AJAX to communicate with a different server than the page is hosted from, right?
20:29:34 <zzo38> FILE SELECTION = SINGLE PLAYER | CUSTOM DATA | RENTAL | RANDOM | RANDOM RENTAL | DUPLICATE RANDOM | DUPLICATE RANDOM RENTAL | DRAFT | BALANCED MARSEILLAIS DRAFT | AUCTION | RENTAL AUCTION
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20:37:26 <fizzie> Oh, right, of course: you need [*] in order to have prototypes with no parameter names, since you can't say [n] if you don't name n.
20:37:46 <fizzie> "A function prototype can have parameters that have variable length array types (§6.7.5.2) using a special syntax as in int minimum(int, int[*][*]); This is consistent with other C prototypes where the name of the parameter need not be specified." (C99 Rationale.)
20:38:13 <zzo38> fizzie: O, yes, otherwise n might be a constant, I guess; that part makes sense at least.
20:39:58 <fizzie> Apparently there was also "considerable debate" about the lexical ordering rules, because currently you can write void f(double a[*][*], int n); void f(a, n) int n; double a[n][n]; { ... } using the "old-style" function definition, but you can't write a modern definition with a parameter type list, because void f(double a[n][n], int n) is erroneous.
20:40:36 <fizzie> In the end they decided extending the scope of that n to the start of the parameter list would have not been in the "Spirit of C", and they left it as it is.
20:41:12 <fizzie> "This is an unforeseen side effect of Standard C prototype syntax."
20:41:58 <fizzie> They also give the workaround: void f(double *ap, int n) { double (*a)[n] = (double (*)[n])ap; ... }
20:42:29 <fizzie> (Then you can go ahead and use a[1][2] just like the old-style definition.)
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21:17:03 <zzo38> What option do you want for pokemon battle game?
21:17:36 <Arc_Koen> are you talking about an actual game, or that pokemon battle programming language idea?
21:18:32 <zzo38> No, I mean hypothetically an actual game.
21:18:58 <zzo38> I wrote a list of various idea of options which can be available.
21:19:05 <Arc_Koen> in that case, I think cool weather features could be fun
21:19:15 <zzo38> Yes, I agree; what weather features?
21:19:37 <Arc_Koen> something more than just "it's gonna rain for the next five turns" though
21:19:49 <zzo38> I mean rule options.
21:21:05 <zzo38> I have options for time controls, team restrictions, finance, backgammon doubling cube, bag items, and various others.
21:22:08 <Arc_Koen> the backgammon doubling cube should be a universal feature that every computer game should allow
21:22:31 <zzo38> I don't think it would work with every game
21:25:36 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_rule.txt
21:27:36 <zzo38> Because I want to. Only the comments will be not all uppercase.
21:28:31 <atriq> "BANNED POKEMON [POKEMON]"?
21:28:59 <atriq> Or [BLACKLIST | WHITELIST] [POKEMON]
21:29:31 <zzo38> That may be done using "SPECIES DATABASE" rule.
21:29:50 <ais523> <Arc_Koen> in that case, I think cool weather features could be fun ← oh no you don't DARE
21:30:28 <ais523> Arc_Koen: I'm a competitive Pokémon player
21:30:29 <zzo38> I can list weather anyways but you would be able to turn it off if you don't want weather, anyways.
21:30:34 <ais523> and weather has completely ruined the metagame
21:30:46 <Arc_Koen> don't tell me you've secretly been working on a nintendo ds pokemon game with barometer included
21:31:02 <ais523> nah, but I mean the existing weather conditions (especially rain) are completely broken
21:31:09 <ais523> because they made them too good and too easy to set up
21:31:11 <Arc_Koen> thing is, if you make up your own pokemon game, I don't think metagame matters that much
21:31:13 <ais523> and it's lead to the game being no fun as a result
21:31:21 <Arc_Koen> unless you are very good at advertising
21:31:23 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, so you would turn off the weather entirely in the server option if you want to.
21:31:36 <ais523> zzo38: yes, in fact some people play with that rule (it's called Clear Skies)
21:31:41 <ais523> but the problem is, the default settings are more popular
21:31:46 <ais523> if you have ten thousand different sets of options
21:31:49 <ais523> nobody will be able to find a game
21:32:56 <ais523> imagine chess where each player has their own personal rules for both sides of the board
21:32:58 <ais523> no games would ever happen
21:33:36 <zzo38> I think chess variants actually has a game which is like that.
21:34:08 <zzo38> But that is not relevant anyways. It would be the separate program, which the setting are configured by server, and it may have presets, too.
21:34:21 <Arc_Koen> you just gave me an idea for a chess variant
21:34:42 <Arc_Koen> something stratego-like: you don't know what rules your opponent is playing by
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21:35:15 <Arc_Koen> you can see where his pieces are but not what pieces they are, so you "learn" about his rules and pieces by watching his moves
21:35:35 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: Perhaps, Chess with Different Armies, but you don't know what army has been selected by your opponent but you can narrow the possibilities?
21:35:38 <Bike> i'm pretty sure I saw that game somewhere actually
21:35:49 <Bike> it was more like stratego, a cold war themed game
21:36:06 <Bike> and it came with a book where you could note down what you understood about the enemy forces
21:36:20 <nooodl> ais523: i keep forgetting you're a competitive pokémon player but that's actually neat
21:36:23 <Arc_Koen> pieces placement should be somewhat arbitrary, otherwise you could narrow it down too much
21:36:23 <Bike> because one of their pieces is a "spy" that can move in weird ways while pretending to be something else
21:36:54 <Arc_Koen> for instance you shouldn't be able to know that all his pieces are shogi-like just because you've identified one gold general
21:36:59 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: Yes it could be made like that, I guess.
21:37:10 <Bike> Arc_Koen: http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2961/confusion-espionage-and-deception-in-the-cold-war found it.
21:37:44 <Bike> there's a review on youtube where the guy explains most of it.
21:39:19 <zzo38> ais523: If you don't like weather, so if there is a rule option to disable weather, but what other rule option would you prefer? Is backgammon doubling cube OK?
21:39:37 <Arc_Koen> backgammon doubling cube is ALWAYS ok
21:39:49 <Arc_Koen> though I'm not sure what it would mean here
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21:40:06 <Arc_Koen> how do you count points? the number of pokemon that have been taken out?
21:40:25 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: Battles won per match.
21:40:54 <zzo38> However, since ais523 is Pokemon player, I ask them too.
21:41:15 <Arc_Koen> "Your Blissey has used all its Rests and doesn't have much health left... quitte ou double?"
21:41:33 <Arc_Koen> "OK, quitte." *shoot blissey in the back*
21:53:28 <ais523> zzo38: the tiebreakers normally used are Pokémon remaining, total HP remaining
21:54:08 <ais523> the most obvious way to use the doubling cube, though, would be to give 1 point for a win, 0 for a loss, first to 7
21:54:11 <ais523> with the doubling cube doubling as normal
21:54:22 <ais523> oh, and you can't use it if you're 5-6 down
21:54:29 <ais523> I think this is the normal tournament backgammon rules
21:54:54 <zzo38> Yes, that is the "MATCH POINTS" option, set it to 7. To disallow use when a player has 6 points, you can enable doubling cube with Crawford rule.
21:54:56 <ais523> and it works in any 2-player zero-sum game where "win", "loss", possibly "draw" are the only outcomes
21:55:08 <ais523> zzo38: yep, I'm saying that that's the sensible way to use doubling cube with Pokémon
21:55:31 <ais523> Arc_Koen: also Blissey never runs Rest, it has Softboiled and Aromatherapy
21:55:44 <ais523> like, it wouldn't be an /awful/ user of Rest, but it has better
21:55:56 <zzo38> Another rule is ties stand, which is my preference. I have, however, added the other options too.
21:56:24 <Arc_Koen> hmmmm what about doubling Rest with Sleep talk
21:56:28 <ais523> there's quite a complicated set of tiebreaks in Pokémon, that are used in single elimination tournaments
21:56:33 <ais523> self-KO clause used to be really important, though
21:56:50 <ais523> Arc_Koen: that was good on some mons in gen 4
21:57:10 <ais523> Arc_Koen: well the most important is that if you use a self-destructing move when there's 1 mon each, or destiny bond (which is similar), you lose
21:57:16 <Arc_Koen> yeah well I don't really want to know about gen 5
21:57:28 <Arc_Koen> three of the legendary pokemons look like Zelda characters
21:57:50 <Arc_Koen> I know, I don't like that particular tie breaker either
21:58:14 <ais523> self-ko clause makes a big difference and is pretty important
21:58:34 <Arc_Koen> and I don't see anything wrong with ties
21:58:39 <ais523> otherwise things like custap wobbuffet (which isn't currently legal because there's no way to get the custap berry) would be really good
21:58:44 <Arc_Koen> I think they should be part of the game
21:58:47 <ais523> even more than they are anyway, I think
21:58:58 <zzo38> Actually it is my preference for both that and Pokemon card, where the attacker loses and if not due to an attack then ties stand.
21:59:00 <ais523> well it's more that it can be quite easy to force a tie even when you're clearly losing
21:59:05 <Arc_Koen> not familiar with english names for berries, sorry
21:59:19 <ais523> Arc_Koen: the one that makes you always act first if on low health
21:59:47 <Arc_Koen> what do you mean there's no way to get the custap berry, then?
22:00:00 <ais523> I mean that there's no way to get the custap berry
22:00:16 <ais523> what else could I mean?
22:00:38 <Arc_Koen> ais523: well it's more that it can be quite easy to force a tie even when you're clearly losing << which basically means you are not that clearly losing
22:01:58 <Arc_Koen> I haven't played competitive pokemon nearly enough to really have an opinion on this, but the same argument could be used against stalemate in chess, or against any other form of tie in any other game
22:04:11 <ais523> well in chess, leaving your opponent an opportunity to stalemate themselves is considered a mistake
22:07:54 <zzo38> Unless the alternative makes your opponent win.
22:09:21 <Arc_Koen> I'm just saying that "clearly winning" depends on the rules, and "this rule is unfair because it allows for a tie in a situation where I was clearly winning" doesn't really make any sense in itself
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22:19:34 <FireFly> zzo38: is there a tie-breaking rule in the TCG? is that a somewhat new addition?
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22:34:00 <ion> Gold plated optical. http://dx.com/p/gold-plated-digital-audio-optical-fiber-toslink-cable-black-150cm-135805?item=35
22:34:35 <Arc_Koen> ais523: I haven't read the whole discussion yet so please excuse me if I say soething that has already been said, but I disagree with your iota-based example at http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Smjg
22:35:00 <Arc_Koen> in my sense it was implied that turing-completeness was related to the means of output
22:35:31 <Arc_Koen> and the language you describe is clearly not turing-complete regarding the " output
22:36:02 <Arc_Koen> (because all iota programs are semantically equivalent with regards to that output)
22:37:07 <Arc_Koen> oh, that's what Oerjan answered
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22:44:01 <kmc> wow, the local brick & mortar computer store has really got their act together wrt hobby electronics
22:44:18 <kmc> they have a bunch of different sorts of arduinos, robot parts, raspberry pi kit, tools, etc
22:44:25 <kmc> i bought a servo
22:46:38 <Arc_Koen> atriq: I was thinking about a joke language that would be an extension to deadfish and that you might like
22:47:11 <Arc_Koen> first it is to be noted that it's way more computationally powerful that deadfish, because instead of a single accumulator it has A WHOLE STACK
22:47:21 <Arc_Koen> for that reason it would be called Homestack
22:47:36 <Arc_Koen> the stack can only host up to four elements
22:47:47 <Arc_Koen> trying to push a fifth result in the bottom element being discarded
22:48:44 <kmc> "punchline? there is no punchline"
22:49:10 <nooodl> i believe that, keeping with the theme of people being bad at inventing names for derivative languages, it should be called a) "DeadStack" or b) "StackFish"
22:49:17 <Arc_Koen> yeah I learned that way of telling jokes from my father
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22:49:49 <atriq> Stackfishdeadbrain
22:49:51 <nooodl> i recommend the latter because of the semi clever "stockfish" pun
22:50:00 <monqy> well if it's a joke language
22:50:31 <ion> Do you like fishsticks?
22:50:47 <atriq> No, I'm not a gay fish
22:51:49 <nooodl> you should write a spec for this language in 30 seconds
22:52:20 <Arc_Koen> seeing as how I'm a wikitable-freak I'd have to save the 20 last seconds for format
22:52:36 <monqy> if you set a timer and whatever you write in 30 seconds specifies your language, probably it'd be bad and nobody would understand it
22:55:14 <Arc_Koen> my phone had a timer but I set it to 30 minutes instead
22:55:22 <Arc_Koen> apparently it doesn't have seconds
22:55:33 <monqy> maybe the extra time will improve the quality of your specification
22:55:56 <Arc_Koen> fishstacks is a deadfish derivative based on a stack the stack can only hold four elements when a fifth element is pushed the bottom element is kicked out and eventually printed out to the screen. The name was originally meant to be Hpmestack but it was suggested that DeafStack or StackFish would be a better name as it is a derivative but eventually atriq came up with Fishstakc the commands are i increment d decrement p push a ne
22:56:11 <kmc> perhaps bonghits will fix your language specification
22:56:44 <Arc_Koen> DeafStack "because it has no input"
22:57:22 <monqy> i';m glad that now i can use this language to write a program?
22:57:57 <zzo38> FireFly: In Pokemon Card, I think the standard tiebreaking rule is that if one player win one way, other player win two ways, the player winning two ways wins, otherwise you play the duel with the same decks but only one side card each. My rule is that number of ways you win and so on is irrelevant; attacker loses otherwise the tie stands.
22:58:34 <Arc_Koen> though the fact that I did not think about including a pop function during those extended 30 seconds is regrettable
22:59:36 <zzo38> FireFly: What do you prefer for tiebreaking rule? Another rule I use with Pokemon Card is overmate.
23:00:20 <FireFly> zzo38: Hm, I didn't know about the "winning in more ways" thing, but I'm familiar with the single-prize-card tiebreaking match thing
23:01:33 <nooodl> what was happening at "a ne\nsquare top element"
23:02:02 <zzo38> Overmate is my own rule. Normally you have overmate 0, and then add 1 for each extra side card you would pick up but you can't, add 1 if opponent's draw pile is empty, add 1 if your draw pile is empty, and add 1 if you won in two ways.
23:02:43 <zzo38> It is an extra score you earn.
23:02:47 <Arc_Koen> nooodl: I just had a weird déjà-vu feeling when you said that
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23:03:21 <Arc_Koen> but if the question was sincere I said "p push a new 0 s square top element"
23:03:31 <zzo38> FireFly: What I mentioned was the older rules; I don't know what the new rules say about such things.
23:03:48 <FireFly> Yeah, I haven't played in ages either
23:03:56 <nooodl> so because you forgot about "pop", p is really just "set the accumulator to zero"
23:04:36 <Arc_Koen> no, it's slightly more *cough* subtle that that
23:04:38 <zzo38> I know some things about the newer rules, and actually I prefer the older rules. I also invented additional rules which are only available in Limited.
23:05:25 <nooodl> oh i guess you have to p once at the start of your program at least
23:06:49 <Arc_Koen> well and the print function is different
23:07:28 <Arc_Koen> so when "setting the accumulator to 0" you're actually putting the previous accumulator in the output queue
23:07:50 <Arc_Koen> (did I say "stack" before? :D)
23:08:13 <nooodl> now you have to call is
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23:23:06 <Arc_Koen> hey nooodl, do you have a user account on the wiki so that I can give you the credits you deserve?
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23:35:45 <nooodl> i'm guessing this should work? http://pastie.org/5368841
23:35:59 <nooodl> it's kind of smart ass-y
23:37:53 <monqy> what if you get accum up to anything above 16 then square it
23:38:21 <nooodl> "the classic deadfish issue"
23:38:39 <nooodl> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Nooodl
23:40:18 <nooodl> monqy: you should write something on my user page
23:40:32 <monqy> but what do i write
23:40:54 <nooodl> something about heading text clearly
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23:42:00 <monqy> ok i wrote something
23:42:04 <monqy> refresh your userpage
23:44:41 <nooodl> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Monqy&action=history http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:Nooodl&action=history
23:46:59 <Arc_Koen> nooodl: I'm not sure your implementation works properly with output, but I have never seen that language before so I can't really tell
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01:22:45 <Sgeo> If there's only one place that something's being deployed, it's fine to use features specific to that environment, right?
01:22:48 <Sgeo> (e.g. named pipes)
01:23:27 <Bike> that depends on a lot of factors, don't you think? like whether whoever you're deploying it for might want to spread out later, or whether you're being paid enough to care
01:37:37 <kmc> also named pipes are supported by most operating systems
01:39:32 <Sgeo> I feel like I should be using local sockets, not sure if that's easier or not :/
01:39:46 <Sgeo> Basically, PHP page acts as a client and long running Python script acts as a server
01:39:56 <kmc> PHP: not even once
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01:46:59 <kmc> maybe you could write the client in a language other than the worst language ever
01:48:01 <Sgeo> All it's going to do is serve the data to an AJAX call
01:49:45 <Sgeo> Hmm, JSONP is a thing that exists that I could use
01:49:52 <Sgeo> But then I'd have to learn some sort of ... hm
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01:54:37 <kmc> why not serve it from the python process
01:55:15 <Sgeo> Because I'd have to do JSONPish stuff
01:55:20 <Sgeo> Which I guess I can do
01:55:28 <kmc> why would you
01:55:30 <Sgeo> I don't know if I can run a Python process on this server to do web stuff
01:55:30 <kmc> how does that follow
01:55:49 <Sgeo> Because I'm still using some other server for most of the web stuff
01:56:00 <Sgeo> Not going to start messing with that, it's not really under my control
01:56:09 <kmc> ah, you are on some kind of shared hosting and you have mod_php and not mod_wsgi or mod_fastcgi
01:56:30 <kmc> i still don't see what this has to do with JSONP
01:56:41 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, yes
01:56:46 <kmc> is it because you would have to host it on a different domain
01:56:55 <Sgeo> I don't know anything about mod_wsgi or mod_fastcgi
01:57:01 <Sgeo> Those could be installed, I guess
01:57:08 <Sgeo> I have no idea
01:57:16 <kmc> i guess what i'm saying is, your frontend web server (apache or whatever) knows how to talk to PHP, but not Python?
01:57:17 <Sgeo> It would be on a different port
01:57:18 <lambdabot> Sgeo: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:57:38 <Sgeo> kmc, I have no idea if it knows how to talk to a long running Python process
01:57:39 <kmc> well typically web apps are configured with a frontend server proxying to one or more application server processes
01:58:11 <kmc> the proxying can be literally HTTP proxying over localhost, or it could be FastCGI protocol, or WSGI which is a python-spceific thing I don't know much about
02:00:46 <Sgeo> "These days, FastCGI is never used directly. Just like mod_python, it is only used for the deployment of WSGI applications."
02:00:58 <Sgeo> I really just want to do a two second thing, why can't I just FastCGI directly
02:01:05 <kmc> i'm not really sure what that means "never used directly"
02:01:18 <kmc> it's probably lies
02:01:40 <kmc> it's true that whatever's on the other end that parses the fastcgi requests will probably go through WSGI
02:01:46 <kmc> because most python web app frameworks are built around WSGI
02:02:15 <Lumpio-> 04:00:58 < Sgeo> I really just want to do a two second thing, why can't I just FastCGI directly
02:02:21 <Lumpio-> Because it's easier to do wsgi
02:02:27 <kmc> at work we are using FastCGI because nginx's native wsgi support seemed pretty half-baked
02:02:38 <kmc> and because we know about fastcgi and have used it before
02:03:16 <kmc> the extent of it is that I went to http://wiki.nginx.org/NgxWSGIModule and observed "From LoONeYChIKuN: I was able to successfully get this to compile on 0.8.30 and 0.7.64 using this patch." and "From JacobSingh: I tested this against 0.6.23 and it didn't compile."
02:03:17 <Sgeo> I could easily just take this code snippit on this page and adapt it to my needs
02:03:28 <Sgeo> Not that difficult
02:04:51 <kmc> http://blog.zacharyvoase.com/2010/03/05/django-uwsgi-nginx/ looks pretty complicated compared to "apt-get install nginx python-flup"
02:05:13 <Lumpio-> Well that's mostly because it starting from compiling freaking nginx
02:05:54 <kmc> well why does it seem that everyone who wants to use nginx with wsgi has to compile it from scratch with weird patches etc
02:06:19 <kmc> i didn't do in-depth research, but this pattern seemed to bode poorly
02:06:23 <kmc> what did you do
02:07:09 <Lumpio-> pacman -S nginx; yaourt -S uwsgi
02:07:24 <shachaf> I spent a while puzzling through this overly-simple generate Core before realizing that I had main = return ()
02:07:35 <Lumpio-> Granted that second command does actually compile the thing but it's automatic. Think Gentoo except better
02:08:54 <Lumpio-> I think it also creates the init script
02:09:09 <Lumpio-> (Which will probably break in the next update due to systemd but hey)
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02:10:04 <Lumpio-> But at any rate, I can now get a WSGI app to magically appear in a location by putting two or three lines in the respective place in nginx's configuration
02:10:21 <Lumpio-> ...I wouldn't run Arch on a server though
02:10:30 <Lumpio-> I mean, on a server that has some sort of reliability requirement
02:10:30 <kmc> so do you have to run some separate uwsgi process or does nginx launch that
02:11:07 <Sgeo> I don't think it's working
02:11:09 <Lumpio-> But setting that up is a one-time thing (just like any other daemon)
02:11:16 <Lumpio-> And it can run multiple apps
02:12:11 <Lumpio-> That's the easiest way I've been able to figure out how to run Python web stuff under nginx
02:12:18 <Lumpio-> Least configuration per app
02:12:24 <kmc> okay, cool
02:12:27 <kmc> thanks for the info :)
02:14:01 <Sgeo> ENGINE Serving on 127.0.0.1:8080
02:14:07 <Sgeo> (With CherryPy)
02:14:21 <Sgeo> Yet I can't access it from my browser
02:14:31 <Sgeo> Wondering if need to config to make it externally visible
02:15:36 <kmc> well is it running on the same machine as your browser?
02:16:39 <kmc> well, that's why then
02:16:47 <kmc> it's listening on the interface with IP 127.0.0.1
02:28:58 <Sgeo> Do I need to find the exact IP of the server?
02:31:19 <kmc> your computer is broadcasting an IP address!
02:31:34 <kmc> if you want to listen on all interfaces you can probably say ":8080" or "0.0.0.0:8080" on the command line
02:31:39 <kmc> i don't know what exactly you did to invoke cherrypy
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02:32:59 <Sgeo> Found a configuration thing
02:33:13 <Sgeo> It's still not working
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02:35:06 <Sgeo_> I give up, I'll do the PHP thing
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02:44:55 <kmc> that's like saying school is too hard, so you're going to drop out and smoke crack under a bridge
02:45:29 <Sgeo_> Sort of have a harsh deadline right now, so don't really care
02:45:41 <Sgeo_> (Because I procrastinated all weekend)
02:47:04 <shachaf> Why is benchmarking hard? :-(
02:53:45 <Arc_Koen> I was just thinking, they could try to use the gate's technology to clone people
02:53:58 <Arc_Koen> and then I watch this episode and what does McKay do?
03:00:19 <kmc> http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say-ja-to-socialism.html
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03:07:28 <kmc> would you say that the abbreviation of plural "file descriptors" is "fds", "FDs", "fd's", or "FD's"
03:08:47 * shachaf is on the anti-apostrophe-pluralization committee.
03:09:43 <kmc> yeah, i gather it is only correct in limited cases
03:09:46 <kmc> like single letters
03:10:28 <shachaf> I don't even like it in those limited cases.
03:10:38 <shachaf> That may be an overreaction.
03:10:58 <shachaf> Well, in the case of a single letter I'm fine with it if you put apostrophes on both sides of the letter. :-)
03:20:15 <Arc_Koen> Well in the case of a single letter I'm fine with putting apostrophes on both sides of the letter if you put s's on both sides too
03:20:37 <kmc> obviously the plural of 'o' is 'ꙮ'
03:21:09 <Arc_Koen> s'probably something wrong with encoding but I see that as "the plural of 'round' is 'square'"
03:21:16 <shachaf> kmc never misses an opportunity to ꙮ.
03:21:27 <shachaf> Arc_Koen: I think that's just because you're racist or something.
03:21:47 <Arc_Koen> why didn't anyone warn me before
03:22:06 <Arc_Koen> I think I had the right to know if I was racist
03:22:29 <Arc_Koen> wonder what "or something" might be, though
03:23:32 <Arc_Koen> hey, hasn't anyone come up with "2-dimensional Thue" yet?
03:23:39 <kmc> it's 'CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O' (U+A66E)
03:24:17 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiocular_O
03:24:47 <kmc> it bothers me that the unicode reference glyph has 7 eyes, and the only primary source for the character I could locate has 10 eyes
03:25:08 <kmc> Arc_Koen: I spent a long time tracking down the origin of this character with help from various people on IRC and such
03:25:22 <kmc> had to find a copy of a soviet era paleography textbook on russian rapidshare
03:27:10 <kmc> oh no, "Proposal to encode additional Cyrillic characters in the BMP of the UCS" is now a 404
03:27:33 <Arc_Koen> http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/809/capturedcran20121113042.png
03:28:02 <Arc_Koen> it's like they *want* me not to see it
03:28:06 <kmc> get some better fonts
03:28:21 <kmc> that article has a picture though
03:28:28 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cyrillic_letter_Multiocular_O.png
03:29:03 <Arc_Koen> don't you think that might be dangerous?
03:31:53 <Arc_Koen> (that was supposed to be a reference to discworld btw)
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03:34:00 <kmc> apparently most hands in texas hold-'em are not worth playing
03:34:16 <Bike> you can bet on anything~
03:34:36 <kmc> what do you mean
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04:14:02 <zzo38> kmc: Well, yes, you get only two cards so it is difficult to know right away if it is best to play; however there is other things such as your current score, position, current bet, various other things to decide if it is worth playing or not; the probabilities are just one factor of many. But if you have two aces and no flop cards yet, you should probably play.
04:14:57 <zzo38> If you have two aces, the flop cards two of them are aces, and the third is 2 to 9, then you should definitely play.
04:15:20 <zzo38> Well, maybe not 2 to 9, maybe 6 to 9.
04:16:50 <zzo38> Actually I think I am wrong.
04:16:57 <zzo38> But nevertheless you should probably play.
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04:18:25 <Sgeo_> I want to hurt whoever designed the Python version of the PubNub API.
04:19:43 <shachaf> Sgeo_: What does that have to do with Clojure?
04:20:38 <Sgeo_> This project I'm working on that involves Python and PHP and PubNub is more important than the little Clojure project I have going. Does that count as having something to do with Clojure?
04:23:05 <Sgeo_> subscribe is blocking. I want the event loop to be separate from subscribe
04:23:33 <Sgeo_> kmc, I think this is a good example of that article you linked, an advantage of node.js being that people make interoperable APIs
04:27:12 <Sgeo_> And importantly, things other than the event loop wouldn't block *glare*
04:27:40 <Sgeo_> I need to subscribe to an indeterminate number of channels, not just one. I don't think Python threads are lightweight]
04:28:29 <kmc> python threads are a disaster
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04:29:10 <Sgeo_> Not using them for parallel processing, just using them to get around the blocking API
04:29:56 <Sgeo_> And it's blocking because of a while True: not because of some C stuff.
04:30:19 <Sgeo_> So, are they a disaster in a way other than the GIL, because I don't see how the GIL would hurt my use-case
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04:44:15 <zzo38> I made some more rules of Pokemon game
04:44:16 <zzo38> EVOLUTION DURING MATCH = PREVENT | DISQUALIFY | KNOCK OUT | DELETE | DELAY | ALLOW | ITEMS ONLY
04:44:30 <zzo38> INVALID TARGET CORRECTION = AUTO SAME SIDE | AUTO ANY SIDE | MISS | PROMPT | USER FAINTS | LOSE BATTLE | DISQUALIFY
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04:45:00 <zzo38> DISQUALIFY IF TEAM BECOMES INVALID DURING MATCH = NO | YES | ONLY BETWEEN BATTLES | ONLY BEFORE BATTLES AND IGNORING COMPUTER | DELETE VIOLATIONS | DELETE VIOLATIONS BETWEEN BATTLES
04:45:12 <zzo38> SPEED TIE BREAKER 1 = SIMULTANEOUS | RANDOM | BID | HIGHER LEVEL | LOWER LEVEL | TYPE DISADVANTAGE | DAMAGE | ALTERNATION | COMMAND ENTRY TIME
04:45:38 <zzo38> SURRENDER COMMAND = BATTLE | MATCH
04:45:50 <zzo38> SNAG OPPONENT'S POKEMON = NO | YES | ANTICIPATED BLOCK | ANTICIPATED EVADE | ANTICIPATED BLOCK AND EVADE
04:46:46 <zzo38> DELETED POKEMON GO TO OPPONENT'S COMPUTER = NO | YES
04:47:20 <zzo38> What are you think of such things as this?
04:48:18 <quintopia> or card-collecting games in general
04:48:31 <quintopia> btw, who wants some old mtg cards?
04:48:56 <quintopia> you can have them for 8 bucks shipping included
04:49:25 <zzo38> I don't want any; I only play Limited.
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05:11:57 <Sgeo_> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=477454
05:12:15 <Sgeo_> An argument about whether or not it's a horrific thing that there's an insult in the code
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05:12:27 <Sgeo_> It's agreed that it's bad, but not agreed if it's urgently bad
05:25:11 <kmc> they didn't even spell his name right
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05:26:12 <zzo38> Once I wrote a "impossible physics list", among other things it includes smaller atoms and universes where thirteen is not prime.
05:28:01 <kmc> smaller than what?
05:29:28 <zzo38> Smaller than hydrogen atoms.
05:30:38 <Bike> what if the nuclear forces were stronger?
05:33:19 <zzo38> It is based on I read a impossible physics book, which includes such things as invisibility, antimatter, starships, death star, and a few things, grouped into class I to class III impossibility.
05:37:51 <zzo38> In my list I also included: making time go sideways, subjuctive television, Pokemon, dreams that it is impossible to wake up, anti-logic zones, people with mirrored molecules, ...
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08:09:36 <shachaf> > (["hi","there"],["new","haskellers"]) % partsOf (both.traverse.traverse) .~ "GREETINGS"
08:09:38 <lambdabot> (["GR","EETIN"],["GSw","haskellers"])
08:09:51 <shachaf> > (["hi","there"],["new","haskellers"]) % partsOf (both.traverse.traverse) %~ reverse
08:09:53 <lambdabot> (["sr","ellek"],["sah","wenerehtih"])
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08:12:28 <shachaf> > (["hi","there"],["new","haskellers"]) % partsOf (both.traverse.traverse) %~ reverse % both %~ reverse
08:12:31 <lambdabot> (["ellek","sr"],["wenerehtih","sah"])
08:12:36 <shachaf> You're thinking of Ellek Sr.
08:13:05 <fizzie> Senior Engineer Señor Ellek Sr.
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09:53:04 <atriq> I like the most recent Girl Genius
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11:12:24 <atriq> I think this is becoming one of the most ridiculously overkill brainfuck interpreters ever
11:14:43 <atriq> Needs more comonads
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14:20:36 <atriq> Fueue is a ridiculous language
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16:23:08 <ais523> huh, that was a surprisingly thoughtful scam email
16:23:17 <ais523> the thought behind it was that it actually identified my mail provider correctly
16:23:22 <ais523> admittedly, it could have done that from the address
16:32:24 <atriq> Arc_Koen, in your implementations of Fueue, what was the divide by zero behaviour?
16:33:17 <Arc_Koen> well I remember asking you a few times, and since you said it was unspecified, I guess I must have let it for Ocaml to raise its appropriate exception
16:34:23 <Arc_Koen> oh, wait I had two implementations
16:34:39 <Arc_Koen> ~/desktop/ocaml stephan$ gcc -o fueue fueue.c
16:34:39 <Arc_Koen> ~/desktop/ocaml stephan$ ./fueue '/ 5 0'
16:35:23 <Arc_Koen> ~/desktop/ocaml stephan$ ocamlc -o fueue fueue.ml
16:35:23 <Arc_Koen> ~/desktop/ocaml stephan$ ./fueue '/ 5 0'
16:35:23 <Arc_Koen> Fatal error: exception Division_by_zero
16:35:43 <atriq> I'm trying to do my version, except better, this time
16:35:57 <Arc_Koen> so the ocaml one clearly raise Division_by_zero when doing the division
16:36:08 <Arc_Koen> I'm not sure when the Floating point exception occurs in the C one, though
16:38:07 <Arc_Koen> yup, so floating point only seem to occur with 0
16:38:30 <atriq> Good, I think that's what I meant
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16:44:16 <nooodl> hmmm i'm thinking up quite the language here!
16:44:16 <lambdabot> nooodl: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:45:27 <nooodl> here's the deal: befunge, on an infinite-D 2x2x2x2x2x... board
16:46:02 <nooodl> so your position is just a binary number. by default the pointer goes 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1, etc
16:47:23 <elliott> nooodl: then most positions on the board are inaccessible
16:47:26 <elliott> or the language is super-TC
16:48:34 <atriq> I'd reckon it's linear-bounded
16:48:49 <atriq> If there's a start moving in direction n command
16:49:06 <atriq> nooodl, a turing-machine is less powerful than it if it's super-TC
16:50:02 <atriq> A Turing-machine is a kind of machine which is conjectured to be able to execute any well-defined algorithm
16:51:55 <nooodl> anyway, moving around involves just going "x ^= dx", however, i'm going to somehow implement being able to modify multiple derivatives of x
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16:53:13 <nooodl> so with multi-dimensional wrapping and speed, acceleration, jerk, jounce etc. set, you can make more intersting loops around the board
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16:57:29 <nooodl> http://codepad.org/ZgbFzZ1c apparently you can make paths with a length of up to 2^ceil(log2(x)) when you define x derivatives of position
16:59:20 <Arc_Koen> nooodl: http://esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_ideas#Based_on_dimensions
16:59:21 <nooodl> or uh, not really. it's 2^ceil(log2(x-1)), or something. anyway, to move around, instead of setting dx and dy to some value like befunge, you push dx, ddx, dddx, ddddx etc. onto a "movement stack"
16:59:55 <elliott> I am saying that either you cannot set the position to most possible values or your language is uncomputable
17:00:32 <Arc_Koen> nooodl: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Hcbf
17:02:53 <nooodl> yeah, the coords have to end with an infinite amount of 0s
17:03:16 <oklofok> uncomputable is such a broad term
17:03:34 <nooodl> there's no bound to the number of dimensions your position can have, but it can't ever be infinite
17:03:56 <oklofok> inf-anf-oh at least had periodic points
17:05:28 <Arc_Koen> if you can unambiguously describe an infinite binary sequence, it should be ok :)
17:06:57 <nooodl> i've considered that. representing position as a function (N -> Bool)
17:07:20 <Arc_Koen> but you'd need to have means to test those functions for equality, at least
17:07:46 <Arc_Koen> and thing is I'm not sure you'd be adding much to the language by allowing infinite sequence
17:08:21 <elliott> <Arc_Koen> if you can unambiguously describe an infinite binary sequence, it should be ok :)
17:08:33 <elliott> almost all infinite binary sequences cannot be described by any finite program
17:08:45 <Arc_Koen> for instance, "rational numbers" or whatever you call repeated sequences, can be describe with a notation such as "(finite sequence)*"
17:08:55 <oklofok> unless your measure has atoms
17:09:31 <Arc_Koen> but in that case you're only adding the possibility to put a * after a finite sequence, so you are only "multiplying by two" the possibilities, which is kinda lame since there already are an infinite number of them
17:10:42 <nooodl> things stay considerably more sane if you don't allow for coordinates like (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, ...)
17:12:46 <oklofok> so, are you using the cantor topology for the space of all positions
17:12:50 <ais523> "comparing functions for equality" is on my mental list of "the simplest things you can't do"
17:13:23 <oklofok> ais523: you have some nice language for describing sequences so that equality is decidable right?
17:14:47 <oklofok> there's automatic sequences and fixed points of substitutions
17:15:34 <oklofok> although perhaps for the latter equality is not in general decidable, but i think it is for primitive substitutions or something
17:15:47 <Arc_Koen> the first time I thought about creating my own language I had an idea to include infinite sequences in it
17:16:33 <Arc_Koen> using lazy-evaluating for-like statements and a few other things of the like
17:17:41 <nooodl> not every infinite sequence is describable, though, right
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17:24:29 <oklofok> pretty much everything you'll ever need is describable
17:25:20 <oklofok> (in math you occasionally need things you cannot describe exactly, but are members of some nonempty set you can describe)
17:25:48 <elliott> nooodl: (in case it isn't clear, positions in your language are isomorphic to reals)
17:26:54 <nooodl> well if i'm not allowing for anything that doesn't end in "0 repeating" they're isomorphic to naturals, right
17:27:25 <nooodl> because (0, 1, 0, 1, 1, 0 repeating) is just 0b11010
17:28:55 <ais523> nooodl: and if you allow any sequence to repeat, it's isomorphic to the rationals
17:29:00 <ais523> which are isomorphic to the integers
17:29:11 <ais523> as in, always ends with a repeating sequence but you can specify waht
17:29:58 <atriq> Which was the basis of my informal proof the other day in a maths lesson that the digits of pi cannot be found within pi except for the obvious case of starting from the beginning
17:30:45 <atriq> Because it implies repetition, which implies rationality
17:30:49 <atriq> And pi is irrational
17:31:01 <oklofok> a characterization of periodicity is indeed that the sequence contains itself as a tail
17:31:40 <oklofok> it's harder to prove that pi is irrational presumably
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17:32:56 <oklofok> another characterization is this: there exists n such that the sequence contains at most n n-letter substrings
17:33:17 <oklofok> can you prove this? can you think of a two-dimensional analogue? is it true? can you prove it?
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17:35:00 <oklofok> the natural two-dimensional version is called nivat's conjecture
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17:36:11 <oklofok> so it's known that if there are at most 2n rectangles of shape n times 2, then the configuration is periodic (in at least one direction)
17:36:49 <oklofok> and recently it was proved that if there are at most nk/2 subrectangles of shape n times k then again it's periodic in some direction.
17:37:28 <elliott> how recently are we talking here
17:38:35 <oklofok> we're going through the paper now, it's a bit annoying since we came up with all the main ideas in a seminar a few years back, except for the crucial idea of writing anything down.
17:39:04 <oklofok> (mostly based on the work of a guy in our university who had the record nk/16 then)
17:39:14 <elliott> how long until nk/1?!?!?!?!
17:42:45 <oklofok> well what makes the question interesting is of course that you can easily find a binary configuration that isn't periodic and you have nk+1 ways to fill each n times k rectangle
17:43:02 <oklofok> but nk - the natural counterpart to the 1d result - is a huge mystery
17:43:24 <oklofok> then again that's math for ya
17:43:36 <oklofok> it's awesome what you gonna do
17:44:11 <oklofok> i can prove it for nk/infinity:
17:44:34 <oklofok> assume the configuration x has nk/infinity = 0 subrectangles of n times k
17:47:31 <oklofok> well you have all the time in the world
17:47:51 <Phantom_Hoover> still mostly boring, although geometry stopped and abstract algebra started
17:48:21 <oklofok> abstract algebra is nice yes
17:48:27 <oklofok> we're writing our first algebra paper kinda
17:48:34 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm so far behind on differential equations it's not even funny
17:48:45 <oklofok> i don't know anything about those :/
17:50:08 <Phantom_Hoover> i also haven't listened to an analysis lecture in weeks
17:51:12 <oklofok> i'm only taking one course
17:52:19 <oklofok> f'(a) = (f(x) - f(a))/(x - a) for x - a infinitely small :-)
17:56:33 <oklofok> this is one of those things for which you need an object you can't describe
17:57:41 <oklofok> nice work, can you do 6x^7 + 3x next?
17:57:47 <kmc> oh FreeFull
17:58:12 <kmc> just because what you say is true does not make it relevant or interesting
17:58:29 <oklofok> i thought it was very amusing
17:59:08 <kmc> in my experience spontaneous demonstrations of calculus ability are used mainly by drunk freshman attempting to prove that they are not drunk
17:59:41 <atriq> I'm better at calculus when drunk. I am so sorted for university.
17:59:53 <quintopia> kmc: the problem being that such people usually have atriq's ability
18:00:19 <quintopia> i know a guy whose party trick is drawing accurate political maps of various countries and continents
18:05:58 <elliott> why did FreeFull give us a bunch of derivatives of x^2
18:16:33 <kmc> did you all know the sky is blue?
18:16:39 <kmc> i just thought you should have this information
18:17:12 <kmc> e^x dx dx, e^y dy
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18:23:11 <quintopia> kmc: if this sentence is a true statement, then the sky is actually reddish-green.
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19:27:54 <elliott> agda has pattern synonyms now
19:29:41 <atriq> elliott, help, I'm writing another ridiculously long Haskell function
19:29:58 <atriq> I don't know how to don't!
19:32:45 <Gregor> Why don't, when you can do!
19:37:06 <atriq> It looks kind of pretty
19:44:26 <fizzie> That tornado is carrying a car.
19:46:21 <fizzie> Unless that was an atriq-directed "what.", in which case I concur.
19:49:14 <atriq> I have a warped sense of both beauty and pareidolia, okay?
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20:21:03 <olsner> or, as they say... damned if you do do, damned if you don't don't
20:21:34 <olsner> oh, missed the whole "don't" discussion by about an hour
20:24:58 <tswett> You know, I've been thinking.
20:25:01 <tswett> Homestuck is pretty weird.
20:25:21 <atriq> You... just noticed
20:25:35 <tswett> I've noticed it a couple of times before.
20:25:54 <elliott> did you know that there is no computable model...
20:25:59 <atriq> For reference, http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003831
20:26:09 <tswett> There is, in fact, a computable model of the Peano axioms.
20:26:54 <coppro> tswett: hahahahahahahahaha
20:26:57 <elliott> no no, that's not what i meant
20:28:01 <tswett> You meant a computable model of ZFC?
20:28:04 <tswett> Yeah, there isn't one of those.
20:29:13 <atriq> tswett, what specifically made you notice that Homestuck is weird
20:29:41 <tswett> A computable model of... the real numbers?
20:29:46 <tswett> I don't think there's one of those, either.
20:30:20 <tswett> atriq: I read a TV Tropes page mentioning that in Homestuck, most of the dialogue takes place via chat programs.
20:31:00 <olsner> there's no computable model of anything!
20:31:33 <tswett> There is no computable model of NFU?
20:31:35 <kmc> well there's a countable model of the real numbers
20:31:55 <tswett> There's no computable model of, uh...
20:32:47 <tswett> The semantics of Haskell?
20:33:59 <elliott> there is no computable model of a computable set of axioms that uniquely defines the natural numbers
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20:34:24 <tswett> Yes, that sounds true.
20:34:41 <atriq> tswett, most of my conversations with you take place via chat programs
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20:35:28 <tswett> That also sounds true.
20:36:46 <atriq> Is it that weird, in a modern world, for a significant number of conversations to take place via chat programs?
20:36:50 <atriq> Rather than face to face?
20:37:24 <tswett> What is weird is that when people *are* together in person, they never actually speak.
20:37:41 <atriq> Until Act 6 Intermission 1
20:38:04 <atriq> And only if you don't count, for example, John's conversations with Nannasprite
20:38:20 <tswett> I think the carapaced ones may have some actual conversation with each other before that.
20:38:23 <pikhq_> I am certain that I have typed more than I have said.
20:39:04 <tswett> It's just that the conversation is always paraphrased.
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22:01:48 <atriq> Apparently I do not have a microphone now
22:09:39 <kmc> did somebody steal it?
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22:12:18 <zzo38> Is it allowed to update your candidate submission?
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22:12:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, speaking of controllers (well, we were yesterday): quite a few games don't properly handle mixed input devices correctly it appears
22:13:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, with that I mean switching between keyboard, controller or joystick on the fly
22:13:26 <Vorpal> which would make sense in many games
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22:39:18 <ais523> <Samsung's lawyers> According to Apple, a jury’s damages verdicts are immune from scrutiny so long as they fall “within the range encompassed by the record as a whole,” and the verdicts here fall within that “range” because they are lower than the damages Apple sought.
22:39:27 <ais523> this case has generally been hilarious
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23:26:25 <kmc> "The GNU Make Standard Library (GMSL) is a collection of functions implemented using native GNU Make functionality that provide list and string manipulation, integer arithmetic, associative arrays, stacks, and debugging facilities."
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23:37:42 <Bike> «Integers are represented by lists with the equivalent number of x's. For example the number 4 is x x x x.»
23:38:52 <Bike> and memoization and map, too. very functional!
23:40:12 <Bike> maybe there's an Ant Standard Library
23:40:32 <kmc> i hope it's named A/S/L
00:20:43 <FreeFull> Bike: You can use > for half an x
00:22:05 <Bike> nah, obviously it would be better to have rationals, as pairs of x's. or hell, throw in dedekind cuts
00:26:42 <FreeFull> Hell, we can do even better than that
00:27:23 <Bike> is that even a thing?
00:28:26 <Bike> ou can keep going to quasurnions and so on, then... probablly rather pointless
00:34:39 <kmc> so does news.bbc.co.uk serve a different page to American IPs, or is it actually the case that British news is mostly about America?
00:36:09 <Bike> none of the headlines below the petraeus thing seem american from here...
00:37:29 <kmc> some of the stuff down the page as well
00:37:35 <kmc> i guess i have this impression because the election just happened
00:37:52 <Bike> it even has a Sandy headline... relating to Haiti!
00:38:23 <kmc> the petraeus thing is getting pretty weird
00:38:24 <kmc> "The White House backs Gen John Allen after reports he "flirted" with a woman who was harassed by the lover of CIA Director David Petraeus."
00:39:11 <Bike> john allen revealed be estranged clone of petraeus's uncle
00:40:58 <elliott> <kmc> so does news.bbc.co.uk serve a different page to American IPs, or is it actually the case that British news is mostly about America?
00:41:06 <elliott> (it is almost certainly the latter)
00:41:14 <elliott> (news everywhere is mostly about america)
00:42:04 <kmc> yay we're #1
00:42:21 <kmc> #1 in sex scandals, dubious wars, and confusing elections
00:43:23 <Bike> apparently the petraeus thing has security breaches involved, which would be a nice change from sex scandals (so probably won't happen)
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01:01:37 <elliott> kmc: a | (b << 1) packs two bits together right
01:02:30 <elliott> i am so rusty with bitwise stuff
01:03:05 <elliott> kmc: okay I have a new question
01:03:24 <elliott> if I read a byte a, and then a byte b
01:03:35 <elliott> and I do (a << 8) | (b & 0x00FF)
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01:12:38 <hagb4rd> --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYDlBVWja50
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01:58:07 <kmc> BUTTON, BUTTON; MAGIC MUSIC; THE KNIGHT OF THE WHISTLE; MY
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02:57:44 <zzo38> Is there any Csound plugin to play Impulse Tracker instruments?
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03:00:01 <Sgeo__> I hate the GIL I hate the GIL I hate the GIL
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03:33:24 <Sgeo__> It might not be the GIL's fault apparently
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03:49:30 <Sgeo__> My mind is going I can feel it
04:01:55 <kmc> look at you hacker
04:02:00 <kmc> a pathetic creature of meat and bone
04:02:07 <kmc> panting and sweating as you run through my corridors
04:02:23 <kmc> how can you challenge a perfect, immortal machine?
04:02:55 <Bike> little does shodan realize that parts of her network interface were written in php
04:04:28 <Sgeo__> kmc, if you're referencing the game I think you're referencing, I've played it
04:06:14 <kmc> monqypatching
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05:04:53 <tswett> How do we know that there's only one standard model of the natural numbers, anyway...
05:06:01 <tswett> I guess it's been proven, in ZFC or something, that there is only one computable model, and that this model is also the only well-ordered model.
05:12:37 <tswett> I've seen it argued that there are, in fact, multiple standard models of the natural numbers. The two most prominent are the positional numeral system, and unary.
05:14:08 <tswett> The argument says that we have no particular reason to think that these two systems are isomorphic.
05:14:46 <zzo38> Should it depend on if you extend them to infinite?
05:14:46 <tswett> Since the number 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 can be written in the positional system, but not in unary.
05:14:47 <monqy> shachaf: are you trying to get me to do a thing? I won't do it
05:15:36 <shachaf> monqy: "do i" have "a reputation"
05:15:56 <tswett> Which... I guess is true for concrete, physical tally marks, but not for abstract theoretical ones.
05:15:56 <monqy> wrt lens, trying to get people to do a thing
05:16:30 <elliott> tswett: so how are you applying this to a new esolang
05:16:34 <zzo38> tswett: Same I was thinking of too.
05:17:15 <zzo38> And I think since you have to use abstract theoretical ones in mathematics, even though you cannot actually write it, you can use a different representation for convenience.
05:17:30 <tswett> elliott: I call it Fuckfuck. It's just like Brainfuck, except you're limited to 28,000 cells.
05:17:45 <monqy> "fuckfuck" is already taken
05:17:59 <tswett> Okay, I'll call it Fuckball.
05:18:14 <shachaf> the new esolang from monqy
05:23:19 <tswett> So, an esolang based on the ultrafinitistic idea that there is no bijection between positional numerals and unary numerals.
05:24:46 <tswett> Presumably, the esolang should be incapable of taking a positional numeral and producing the corresponding unary numeral.
05:25:58 <monqy> does it do anything else ?
05:26:12 <tswett> It does something other than being incapable of that, yes.
05:27:14 <tswett> How is this usually done? The obvious way to do it is via recursion. To unarize a long numeral, start by unarizing all but the last digit, n times.
05:28:04 <tswett> So we should prohibit that kind of recursion.
05:29:01 <Bike> you could just add. int i,tot=0;for(i=0;i<n;++i)write('1');
05:29:17 <tswett> How do you do it using iteration instead? The obvious way to do that is to just repeatedly decrement the numeral and write out "1" each time.
05:30:05 <tswett> Okay, so we just have to make it impossible to repeatedly decrement numerals like that.
05:31:16 <tswett> And the obvious way to do *that* is to make it a stack-based automaton. Right?
05:32:33 <Bike> could you just not have inbuilt positional numerals, forcing church encoding or something more unary-y?
05:33:00 <tswett> Lambda calculus doesn't have to use Church encoding; it can use the positional system.
05:33:41 <tswett> So, we want to make it a stack-based automaton. And that makes me think, stack-based automata are those which can recognize context-free grammars.
05:33:54 <tswett> So, this esolang shall be a syntax for expressing context-free grammars.
05:35:42 <tswett> Which is easy, right? Just take regular expressions and add things that mean "push this" and "pop this".
05:36:13 <tswett> In the interest of inconsistency, the "push this" symbol should be "\p" and the "pop this" symbol should be "-".
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06:17:54 <kmc> i think if i ever finish that window manager it will have to be named windowlicker
06:18:12 <Sgeo__> This one person in #jesus who has ... issues is now having worse issues
06:18:20 <Sgeo__> "yEO nAAd tE sObmUt tE GEd SGEO__"
06:18:27 <Sgeo__> He's doing some sort of letter replacement thing
06:19:22 <Bike> Sgeo__: is this person giygas
06:19:24 * shachaf is sorely lacking a good window manager right now.
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06:19:56 <Sgeo__> Don't know who giygas is
06:22:10 <Bike> kmc: you could call the inevitable flamewarry forks Windowsill and Polygon Window, even
06:22:37 <elliott> kmc: would this wm be better than xmonad
06:23:14 <kmc> elliott: ofc
06:23:25 <kmc> it will be better because it will be written in haskell
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06:30:16 <kmc> #jesus: officially sponsored by the catholic church
06:30:20 <kmc> otherwise it would have to be ##jesus
06:31:03 <shachaf> Can't it be sponsored by some other church?
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06:35:16 <kmc> i think protestants would not generally have someone willing to speak on behalf of jesus to certify an IRC channel
06:37:02 <Sgeo__> Is #esoteric officially sponsored by the Official Committee of Esoteric Languages?
06:37:39 <shachaf> Well, I think the person who runs esolangs.org is in here sometimes.
06:37:45 <Sgeo__> Both #esoteric and #jesus were founded 2003.
06:37:51 <Bike> it's officially sponsored by Eso Teric, blind god of the tarpit, I thought
06:39:30 <elliott> <shachaf> Well, I think the person who runs esolangs.org is in here sometimes.
06:39:31 <fizzie> I thought it was the "ESOtropic TERriers International Conglomeration", often abbreviated ESOTERIC, from which the claim for a primary channel came from?
06:40:14 <fizzie> I can't kick him, he's not in here.
06:42:17 <fizzie> Double-precision rational.
06:42:39 <shachaf> double-double precision rational
06:42:56 <fizzie> struct drat { double num, den; }; /* best number format */
06:42:58 <Bike> a ratio of double floats could be innovative
06:45:04 <fizzie> (Some) C compilers on PPC have a double-double "long double".
06:45:42 <Bike> cmucl has double-double-floats. i have no idea why, because it has hardware support nowhere
06:47:30 <fizzie> Better than a double, yet not as slow as a generic arbitrary-precision soft-float, perhaps.
06:48:10 <kmc> double double animal style
06:48:27 <Bike> doesn't have arbitrary precision floats. the mystery deepens
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07:14:55 <zzo38> I made some document for the skill generator of FurryScript.
07:16:04 <Sgeo__> aowjiefuiawhefiauwhfuioawyehruoafwyevfgawyefvoawefbghawhjfbgaukweyfawkhjufbaukwjefbawukefgakuvfaukwevgfauwgevfawuievfuiawyefguiawygefuiawyefgauiywefgauiwyefguiaweyfgaiw8efygauiwefg
07:17:21 <Sgeo__> The bug that I've been fighting this whole time, and blamed on the GIL at one point? Turns out I miscopied the account's key.
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07:24:19 <Sgeo__> There's another bug somewhere
07:24:59 <shachaf> ?? ?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw ?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw ?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw ?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw ?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
07:25:21 <shachaf> ?? (?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw) (?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw) (?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw) (?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw) (?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw)
07:25:22 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\" "\"#$%&'()*+,\"" Just 'J' Just 'J' Exception: <<loop>>
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07:56:37 <HackEgo> monqy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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08:05:02 <Sgeo__> How big was the original TimeToken?
08:05:02 <Sgeo__> The original TimeToken was 13 (thirteen) digit places.
08:05:02 <Sgeo__> How big is the new TimeToken?
08:05:02 <Sgeo__> The new TimeToken is 17 (seventeen) digit places.
08:05:04 <Sgeo__> How big is the difference between new and old TimeToken?
08:05:06 <Sgeo__> The difference is 4 (four) digit places."
08:05:15 <Sgeo__> FAQs. For people who can't do math.
08:06:18 <olsner> i.e. for everyone, because no-one can do math
08:07:11 <olsner> though I wonder how they managed to math out all those numbers given that no-one can do math
08:08:16 <fizzie> Maybe they used a mathputer.
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08:42:53 <olsner> the mathputer spontaneously erupted from math itself
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09:32:28 <Jafet> I hope this isn't contagious.
09:32:49 <atriq> Now tell me what it is
09:34:18 <shachaf> atriq: Uh-oh, now Jafet got it too.
09:34:43 <elliott> IMO Jafet isn't as good as Java
09:34:53 <Jafet> I hope I don't lose sleep over this.
09:34:54 <shachaf> IMO Java isn't as good as Jafet
09:35:50 <Jafet> Proof by mahayana metaphysics
09:37:12 <shachaf> elliott: Do you think Lens.Zipper-style zippers for infinite strict data structures are possible?
09:37:19 <shachaf> Infinite traversals of strict data structures.
09:37:24 <shachaf> https://github.com/ekmett/lens/issues/81
09:39:57 <atriq> shachaf, can you give an example of an infinite strict data structure?
09:40:35 <shachaf> > toListOf traverseBits (5::Integer)
09:40:37 <lambdabot> [True,False,True,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,Fals...
09:41:00 <Jafet> > toListOf traverseBits (-1 :: Integer)
09:41:02 <lambdabot> [True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True...
09:42:26 <shachaf> Unfortunately there's no way to turn a traversed Integer back into an Integer.
09:43:07 <shachaf> Maybe you could do it with a special kind of Traversal.
09:43:11 <shachaf> I don't think it'd really be worth it...
09:43:20 <Jafet> Clearly we need that lazy integer thingylingy
09:43:54 <Jafet> you will be granted a license to unamb
09:44:37 <shachaf> What lazy integer thingylingy?
09:45:12 <atriq> Testing my Fueue interpreter:
09:45:14 <atriq> *** Exception: Taneb's done something stupid!
09:46:49 <Jafet> The one that we decided wasn't actually possible apart from Nat
09:46:58 <fizzie> Is "(java)" like when you cast some other language into a Java?
09:47:18 <Jafet> How did you know that
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11:24:13 <elliott> It seems to me that .NET assemblies have the following advantages over Haskell packages:
11:24:13 <elliott> Being mostly compiled, .NET assemblies add very little overhead added to the build process.
11:26:48 <atriq> Ah, the advantages of not supporting more than 1 operating system
11:30:21 <shachaf> .NET assemblies work on more than one operating system.
11:31:07 <shachaf> elliott: So if you have data Foo a = Foo [a] a [a]; instance Comonad Foo, and you want to generalize it to data Foo x a = Foo [a] x [a], you can't really do that, can you?
11:31:24 <shachaf> You can do Foo f a = Foo [a] (f a) [a], but that's hardly the same. :-(
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13:34:35 <elliott> ais523: how's that super-safe transactional save mechanism working out for you
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14:46:47 <atriq> I just found myself wishing for a zero-width space key on my keyboard
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16:52:38 <kmc> TIL: python random.SystemRandom() is an object with the same API as random itself, which uses /dev/urandom directly
17:18:21 <oklofok> anyone here an expert on keyboards
17:19:24 <oklofok> i want an nkro ortho-linear keyboard with a separate numpad
17:19:46 <oklofok> separate as in not a numpad button that makes part of the keyboard into a numpad.
17:20:22 <oklofok> i'd prefer to pay less than 1000 euros
17:21:15 <oklofok> typematrix is ortho-linear, and i hear there are nkro keyboards. numpads are of course easier to find than not find.
17:21:32 <oklofok> but i haven't seen one with all
17:22:40 <oklofok> (i would also prefer blank skin because keyboards with text are kinda ugly, but i suppose that's easy to fix.)
17:27:15 <Arc_Koen> blank skin, you mean like a keyboard painted in white?
17:30:26 <oklofok> but that's optional, i can just paint over it or something
17:32:19 <oklofok> i don't really care what the keys feel like, it'd be enough to get a keyboard that's not a retarded piece of shit.
17:32:40 <oklofok> (the definition of not being a retarded piece of shit being nkro + ortho-linear)
17:33:55 <oklofok> before i bought the typematrix, the definition was being ortho-linear, but nkro is an almost equally pressing issue which i only noticed later.
17:45:00 <Arc_Koen> hey does anyone know how http://esolangs.org/wiki/Rhotor works? there are no example programs and I don't really understand the syntax for functions
17:45:38 <Arc_Koen> apparently I'm supposed to use "the :symbol notation" but I don't really know what it does
17:46:28 <oklofok> that the keys are arranged in a grid
17:46:40 <Arc_Koen> and the link to the interpreter seems broken
17:47:04 <oklofok> http://www.blog.cyberkinetx.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/DSC_1944.jpg
17:47:12 <quintopia> i suspect your requirements are too many
17:47:21 <oklofok> nkro + ortho-linear are the main ones
17:47:29 <quintopia> nkro already eliminates 9/10 of the market
17:47:35 <Arc_Koen> you should use that keyboard to shoot a science-fiction show
17:48:02 <oklofok> ortho-linear is way more important, i can't stand staggered (at least the standard way of staggering, diagonal lines would be okay probably, but i don't see the point)
17:48:36 <Arc_Koen> (we used to have touch screens for that, but they're so common now they don't look futuristic any longer)
17:49:06 <oklofok> so you can press any amount of keys at the same time
17:49:47 <quintopia> or if you want to use it for steno
17:50:12 <oklofok> for the same reason i want my keyboard not to have the feature that typing "escalladoddo" actually writes "dude you suck". nkro makes sense, non-nkro doesn't.
17:50:24 <Arc_Koen> doesn't steno care about some order among the typed letters?
17:50:35 <oklofok> and yeah if you had it, you could make programs that use it.
17:50:48 <oklofok> obviously most programs don't because keyboards don't have nkro.
17:50:57 <Arc_Koen> I'm not sure I understand your escalladoddo comment though
17:51:12 <oklofok> if i press two keys, i want two keypresses to be sent.
17:51:22 <Arc_Koen> (but I can relate to the T9 system used by my phone's keyboard is very very lame)
17:51:29 <oklofok> i don't want a random subset to be sent.
17:51:33 <quintopia> Arc_Koen: plover just looks at which keys were all typed in the last 100ms, regardless of order, and considers that a stroke
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17:52:19 <oklofok> Arc_Koen: the comment was a very random example of a feature that doesn't have a point. yeah you might not bump into it. it still makes no sense.
17:52:40 <oklofok> the natural thing to happen when i press 7 keys is that 7 keys are sent.
17:53:02 <oklofok> also why do people always discuss WHY you'd wont nkro, and not instead tell why they want non-nkro?
17:53:09 <Arc_Koen> if I press two keys and let go, two letters appear on my screen
17:53:48 <Arc_Koen> though if I press two keys and don't let go, first two letters appear, then one of the two get printed indefinitely and the other just don't
17:53:52 <quintopia> oklofok: they want, say, 5kro rather than nkro because it is far cheaper
17:54:54 <oklofok> i payed something like 100 for typematrix
17:55:02 <oklofok> i'd pay 400 more for nkro.
17:55:28 <quintopia> most people cannot fathom paying that much for a keyboard
17:55:35 <oklofok> i wouldn't have to feel ashamed of myself everytime i touch my keyboard
17:57:30 <kmc> flat ortholinear seems pretty bad since fingers are not all the same length and resting position of hand is not perfectly flat
17:58:01 <kmc> it's hard for me to imagine any of these being more comfortable than the kinesis contoured
17:58:27 <oklofok> kinesis contoured is one i'm currently looking at
17:58:55 <oklofok> but where's the arrow keys?
17:59:26 <oklofok> flat ortholinear is way better than qwerty imo, never tried a contoured kb.
17:59:52 <kmc> arrow keys are just under qwerty's CV and M,
18:00:05 <kmc> small curl of the index and middle fingers
18:00:16 <kmc> pretty nice -- this is why i didn't learn vim hjkl until recently
18:01:03 <kmc> layout-wise the other big difference is putting bksp del home end pgup pgdn enter space and modifiers into thumb clusters
18:01:21 <kmc> it's pretty dumb that you have two thumbs, they're super strong, and yet on a normal keyboard they can only hit one key between them
18:01:32 <kmc> yes left/right are on the left and up/down are on the right
18:01:51 <kmc> also it has two \| keys
18:01:57 <kmc> which took me like a year to notice
18:02:00 <kmc> i have bound one to Esc
18:02:13 <kmc> but now i mostly use Ctrl-[ for escape
18:02:19 <oklofok> "<kmc> yes left/right are on the left and up/down are on the right" that seems a bit weird
18:02:27 <oklofok> but i guess you get used to it pretty fast
18:02:36 <oklofok> so umm, i suppose no nkro?
18:02:47 <kmc> i think not
18:03:09 <kmc> based on disassembling mine I think it would be fairly easy to replace the controller board
18:03:21 <kmc> but the switches might still be wired up in a matrixey way that precludes nkro
18:03:22 <oklofok> http://www.amazon.com/Crayola-USB-EZ-Type-Keyboard/dp/B00167ZYMK/ref=sr_1_199?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1352916035&sr=1-199&keywords=keyboard
18:03:42 <kmc> is it labeled in comic sans
18:03:52 <kmc> teaching children qwerty :(
18:05:04 <oklofok> i tried to learn dvorak at some point but ä and ö were just too annoying.
18:05:18 <quintopia> whats wrong with teaching children qwerty? are you a dvorak snob?
18:05:24 <oklofok> (at least in the standard layout you get by pressing the dvorak button)
18:05:45 <ion> I use altgr-q for ä and altgr-p for ö.
18:05:46 <quintopia> or do you think we should just give them all touchscreens with swype?
18:06:06 <oklofok> ion: i'd prefer a single key
18:06:13 <kmc> quintopia: qwerty sucks
18:06:20 <kmc> dvorak is one of many non-shitty alternatives
18:06:35 <kmc> i don't claim that dvorak in particular is awesome, just that qwerty sucks
18:06:48 <kmc> that said my complaint is not very serious, because in the real world, being able to type in qwerty is very useful
18:06:50 <quintopia> you arent proposing an alternative
18:06:53 <kmc> and so it's probably a good skill for your children to have
18:06:58 <quintopia> or providing an argument for that matter
18:07:14 <kmc> what crawled up your butt and died
18:07:30 <kmc> om nom nom
18:07:47 <kmc> if i weren't at work i would send a very nsfw animated gif at this juncture
18:07:47 <Arc_Koen> kmc: is that why you never learned esperanto?
18:07:58 <kmc> i don't follow
18:08:22 <oklofok> quintopia: you like qwerty?
18:09:50 <quintopia> i dont see any problem with it really. i know they say dvorak is up to 10% faster with a year of practice, but keyboards are going to be slow. that's just how keyboarding is.
18:10:08 <Arc_Koen> kmc: well, because the ability to speak in actual languages is more important than speaking esperanto, in real life
18:11:12 <oklofok> keyboards are slow? compared to what?
18:11:21 <oklofok> they're pretty slow compared to speech at least
18:11:35 <oklofok> but do you mean like other methods of doing things on the computer
18:13:55 <kmc> Arc_Koen: also esperanto is just boring
18:14:02 <kmc> yet another romance language
18:14:08 <kmc> might as well learn a romance language people actually use
18:14:24 <kmc> whereas, I can see the interest of learning Lojban even though nobody uses it
18:14:32 <kmc> or hungarian
18:14:43 <Arc_Koen> kmc: I hope you're not one of those Lojban nerds!
18:15:32 <oklofok> quintopia: can you teach a computer to read steno? would be pretty cool
18:15:36 <kmc> i don't know any lojban
18:15:43 <kmc> learned a tiny bit a long time ago and then forgot
18:15:45 <Arc_Koen> Lojban seemed very interesting but I have decided not to try to learn it until I speak Chinese, Russian, Arabic, German, and at least five other languages
18:16:16 <Arc_Koen> and since this condition is probably never gonna be fulfilled in this lifetime... :)
18:16:31 <quintopia> oklofok: steno machines *are* computers, but again, plover can steno from a regular nkro keyboard
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18:17:23 <oklofok> ohh you mean that sorta steno
18:17:58 <oklofok> i thought you meant just writing shorthand with pen.
18:18:22 <zzo38> Do you know how to write shorthand?
18:18:31 <quintopia> i think steno is faster and more ergonomic than any penbased method
18:18:59 <oklofok> so about steno, do you actually write all the data?
18:20:14 <oklofok> or can you just write speech in some abbreviated... okay
18:20:29 <quintopia> but if you want to write gibberish you have to do one stroke per letter
18:20:41 <quintopia> whereas real words are 1-4 strokds per word
18:21:19 <oklofok> so you can actually use stenos as everyday kbs?
18:21:43 <quintopia> miranda knight uses it for everything
18:21:57 <Bike> i know a guy who uses half his keyboard, as chorded steno input
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22:41:16 <Sgeo__> monqy, update that I can't see because I can't seem to connect to MSPA for some bizarre reason :(
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23:01:59 <Sgeo__> Phantom__Hoover, there was an update
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23:13:23 <Arc_Koen> yeah, Phantom__Hoover, I think I saw someone update brainfuck recently
23:16:41 <Arc_Koen> an update to your tumblr would be great though
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00:10:55 <Phantom__Hoover> i have a horrible feeling that youtube have updated their featured videos algorithms of late to turn it into an advertising venue
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01:41:54 <Arc_Koen> so, I'm writing an ocaml module for a circular buffer with multiple pointers
01:42:24 <Arc_Koen> that can be useful for instance for interpreters for languages like ETAS or Circlefuck
01:42:51 <Arc_Koen> now what should I call it? "buffer.ml"? "circular.ml"?
01:43:15 <Arc_Koen> given that it will give its name to the circular buffer type
01:43:41 <Arc_Koen> (and so functions will be accessed with names such as Circular.pop or Circular.push or whatever)
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01:59:03 <Sgeo__> With OCaml, is it feasible to change code while it's running?
01:59:33 <Bike> is that something you need to do
02:00:03 <Sgeo__> It's something that can be convenient to do.
02:00:57 <Arc_Koen> I do use some dirty stuff sometimes, like interrupting for loops using exceptions
02:02:23 <Arc_Koen> (in fact I don't consider it dirty at all - when a for loop is preceded by the declaration of an exception named "Interrupt_loop of (something)" I consider it's explicit enough
02:08:35 <Arc_Koen> aaaaand it's way past bedtime again
02:08:44 <Arc_Koen> have a fun night and see you tomorrow
02:08:54 <Arc_Koen> or not, I have stuff to do tomorrow
02:12:11 <Arc_Koen> btw quintopia you will need to give me more info about ETAS, like where does the data pointer start, etc.
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02:28:38 <kmc> circlejerk.ml
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03:33:55 <Sgeo__> *sigh* I think The Onion got something wrong, in a context of facts being presented as though they were surprising
03:34:06 <Sgeo__> http://www.theonion.com/articles/widening-petraeus-scandal-reveals-human-race-has-b,30368/
03:34:34 <Sgeo__> Isaac Newton is on the list of people purported to have had sex.
03:35:11 <kmc> is it definitively established that he didn't?
03:36:13 <Sgeo__> I think he at least claimed to be
03:36:54 <Bike> he also claimed to know where the temple of solomon was and that the world would end in 2060
03:37:59 <Sgeo__> I thought it was that the world wouldn't end before 2060 (not that that makes it more reasonable)
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03:51:58 <kmc> i wanna know where the GOLD at
03:53:11 <Bike> huh, you are gold in my client. how'd you do that
03:54:24 <Bike> oh. I mean sgeo__.
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04:06:36 <kmc> white people itt
04:20:00 <Sgeo__> A truthful The Onion article? o.O
04:20:01 <Sgeo__> http://www.theonion.com/articles/extensive-faq-page-dispels-any-lingering-confusion,30317/
04:20:29 <Sgeo__> (Well, there is a BostonDuckTours.com with a large FAQ, at least)
04:20:58 <kmc> a lot of onion articles are truthful
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04:24:02 <kmc> "As they scoured the Internet for more juicy details about former CIA director David Petraeus’ affair with biographer Paula Broadwell, Americans were reportedly horrified today upon learning that a protracted, bloody war involving U.S. forces is currently raging in the nation of Afghanistan."
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04:40:27 <HackEgo> LiGhTqUaKe: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
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04:49:24 <quintopia> shachaf: Is There An All Initial Caps Welcome Message?
04:49:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Welcome: not found
04:53:26 <kmc> Is there A Shubshub Welcome message That Capitalizes words Seemingly At random?
04:55:13 <shachaf> kmc: shubshub is a spy, transmitting secret messages a bit at a time via capitalization.
05:02:30 <ion> `run cat bin/WeLcOmE
05:02:34 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome $@ | python -c "print (lambda s: ''.join([ (s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(raw_input())"
05:04:28 <kmc> use enumerate
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05:13:09 <kmc> `run WeLcOmE toadrats lizzards
05:13:13 <HackEgo> ToAdRaTs: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
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05:33:48 <Sgeo__> That link doesn't work
05:34:26 <Sgeo__> There is also apparently no lightquake, no toadrats, and no lizzards
05:35:12 <shachaf> @ty interact (zipWith ($) (cycle [toUpper,toLower]))
05:36:10 <shachaf> `run echo blah | ghc -e 'interact (zipWith ($) (cycle [toUpper,toLower]))'
05:36:16 <HackEgo> ghc: can't find a package database at /usr/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d
05:37:59 <shachaf> Does Python have an equivalent of cycle?
05:39:05 <Bike> huh, are circular lists that common in haskell?
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05:39:39 <ion> while True: yield "foo"; yield "bar" or something.
05:39:51 <shachaf> Haskell lists aren't just data structures; they're control structures.
05:39:59 <shachaf> A list is vaguely equivalent to a loop.
05:40:28 <ion> def foo(xs): while True: for x in xs: yield x
05:40:47 <shachaf> ion: Sure, but this is one-liner-land.
05:41:01 <kmc> itertools might have it
05:41:01 <ion> There are essentially no oneliners in Python. ;-)
05:41:12 <ion> It only lets you use the layout syntax.
05:41:21 <Sgeo__> from __future__ import braces
05:41:52 <Sgeo__> `run echo "from __future_ import braces" | python
05:41:56 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module> \ ImportError: No module named __future_
05:42:01 <Sgeo__> `run echo "from __future__ import braces" | python
05:42:05 <HackEgo> File "<stdin>", line 1 \ SyntaxError: not a chance
05:42:41 <ion> Yeah, itertools has cycle()
05:42:57 <ion> How pretty: http://docs.python.org/2/library/itertools.html#itertools.cycle
05:43:15 <ion> Because xs might be an iterator and you can’t rewind iterators.
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06:13:36 <kmc> it's weird that there are still so many places where freight trains run down the middle of the street
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07:42:22 <Sgeo__> " it's a simple, declarative language (think prolog with dependent types)"
07:42:27 <Sgeo__> Another language to fall in love with?
07:45:34 <Sgeo__> Note to self, read up on http://twelf.org
07:46:47 <Bike> weird how wikis are the new style
07:47:09 <Bike> also weird how the site won't load but eh
07:47:25 <Sgeo__> Bike, it's just slow, not down.
07:47:45 <Bike> i'm impatient, so those are the same.
07:48:15 <Bike> the general description is... rather less technical than I would have hoped.
07:48:59 <fizzie> It's for "visitors without a technical background", what did you expect?
07:49:43 <Bike> something that doesn't spend a paragraph explaining what java is. who who doesn't have some idea of that is going to be able to use a theorem prover?
07:51:01 <Sgeo__> Mathematicians? Although in this case, the theorems seem to be about ... programming languages, I ... think
07:51:20 <Bike> bla bla curry-howard bla
07:51:29 <Bike> seems to be related to martin-lof types though, that's kinda neat.
07:53:56 * Sgeo__ has no idea what martin-lof types are
07:54:48 <Bike> intuitionistic type theory. look up the name, he's done some neat shit
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08:20:06 <quintopia> ^tell Arc_Koen it starts at the beginning of the program, just like the instruction pointer.
08:20:29 <quintopia> >tell Arc_Koen it starts at the beginning of the program, just like the instruction pointer.
08:20:41 <quintopia> `tell Arc_Koen it starts at the beginning of the program, just like the instruction pointer.
08:20:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: tell: not found
08:23:59 <quintopia> @tell Arc_Koen it starts at the beginning of the program, just like the instruction pointer.
08:24:03 <fizzie> ^def tell ul (I think you mean @tell instead?)S
08:24:11 <fizzie> ^tell someone something
08:24:11 <fungot> I think you mean @tell instead?
08:24:41 <fizzie> We're all about helpfulness on #esoteric, it's our defining trait.
08:26:16 <fizzie> `tell someone something
08:26:19 <HackEgo> I think you mean "@tell someone something" instead?
08:28:32 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
08:28:55 <Sgeo__> Oh, fizzie already did it
08:29:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4674 \ cat: cat bin/tell: No such file or directory
08:29:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3935
08:30:21 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5734
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08:40:21 <shachaf> Why is cheater such a troll?
08:40:40 <shachaf> Even when he's ostensibly trying to be helpful he's a troll.
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09:23:41 <shachaf> monqy, should i stop playing the "say things to monqy game"
09:24:30 <monqy> it's a pretty old game and maybe should be put out of its misery ?
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09:40:21 <fizzie> Spotted on the wall today: https://www.dropbox.com/s/w27d3bwpo5w9y6e/20121115_001.jpg (For the record, "sähköpääkeskus" = main distribution board, main distribution room.)
09:40:30 <fizzie> (The non-post-it note has been there for years.)
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10:37:29 <shachaf> kmc: Do you think there's a point to adding a spawn-equivalent function to async?
10:38:24 <fizzie> Also, why doesn't "dropbox puburl" work? It outputs URLs just fine, but I just get a 404 for them.
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13:59:08 <elliott> ais523: hi, are you there?
13:59:09 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 9 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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14:20:44 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/137156/this_is_unacceptable_cabal/ area man uses free software, asks for money back
14:21:15 <elliott> "Re: your edit, rants have gotten me solutions. They make people who are able to make changes to prevent said rants aware of the problem. I do feel entitled to complain, and I will complain in the future when I feel like something has been a letdown."
14:21:43 <elliott> hey wouldn't it be great if people didn't help people who asked questions rudely so that this didn't happen!
14:21:45 <elliott> someone should tell #haskell
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14:33:17 <elliott> area man makes analogy as joke, is corrected
14:35:54 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess it's just my tendency to side against whoever first says 'entitled'
14:36:33 <elliott> you cannot say "This is unacceptable." to a project that never once agreed to do anything for you; it is the definition of entitlement
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14:37:17 <fizzie> Area man fights volume man, several length men trampled in the ensuing chaos.
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14:38:22 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, idk, there are reasonable expectations about what a thing will do
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14:39:14 <elliott> "I am having problems with package management because cabal isn't quite as good as it could be" is not one of those reasonable expectations
14:39:28 <elliott> "This sucks" would be equally rude but not as entitled, for reference
14:39:43 <elliott> anyway if you think that post is reasonable then you are probably used to being more hostile than you have a right to is all I can say
14:40:49 <elliott> ais523: "Before the comments section fills up with objections, I should state that there are many sources of bias in this approach, not least of which are bias in the creation of tasks, bias in the kinds of persons who provide solutions, and selectivity in which tasks have been solved. But if we worry about such problems too much, we never do anything!" -- Wolfram blog
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16:41:41 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:42:04 <Phantom_Hoover> once i get around to modding the minerals to be actually bearable
16:42:07 <atriq> Might join you, actually
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16:55:58 <atriq> Right, it's running the history now
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17:07:20 <Phantom_Hoover> note to self: for fuck's sake be more careful when pouring tea
17:08:56 <atriq> It's for those kind of incidents I don't drink tea
17:10:18 <Phantom_Hoover> patch raw/objects/inorganic_stone_mineral.txt with that
17:11:23 <atriq> Aww, I just generated a large world
17:13:36 <Phantom_Hoover> also that's incomplete; i haven't added the reaction to turn anthracite to coke yet
17:14:06 <atriq> If there's no good settlement for me on this world, I'll wait for the final version of your patch
17:17:48 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what do you have against non-sedimentary layers
17:17:56 <elliott> challenge: only use non-sedimentary layers?? see you ruined that challenge
17:18:18 <Phantom_Hoover> In vanilla DF? They're just the things you dig through to get to the magma sea.
17:21:01 <atriq> elliott is a purist
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17:24:38 <atriq> Are these meant to be appended or to replace?
17:24:59 <atriq> There's a notation I've just picked up on
17:25:34 <Phantom_Hoover> it's a patch file, although the way i did it you can't actually use it with patch
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17:26:39 <elliott> you mock yourself just fine
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17:27:10 <Phantom_Hoover> ...is there really no way of controlling the file your patch will be applied to?
17:31:30 <Phantom_Hoover> well it seems like the file that actually gets patched is just determined by the header
17:31:44 <Phantom_Hoover> i would've expected there'd be a command line option to override taht
17:32:25 <elliott> i have no idea what you are trying to do
17:33:44 <Phantom_Hoover> ...use those diffs with patch to automatically edit the raw files?
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17:35:50 <atriq> Okay, the fauna here is one kiwi, one echidna, and three porcupines
17:36:09 <atriq> I wonder if I can capture the echidna and eat its eggs
17:37:02 <atriq> You don't find either echidnas or porcupines in New Zealand
17:37:10 <atriq> As far as I am aware
17:38:07 <Phantom_Hoover> so anyway i'm planning to try that pillar fortress again
17:39:13 <atriq> There aren't any porcupines in Australia either
17:48:07 <hagb4rd> yea new zealand..that's where she's gone.. fucking kiwis
17:49:48 <Phantom_Hoover> oh dear hagb4rd did your girlfriend leave you for new zealand
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17:53:08 <hagb4rd> yea.. and whome shall i fuck to get in there?
17:53:26 <hagb4rd> this option is gone forever
17:55:58 <Phantom_Hoover> this is the... third most surreal thing i've seen this week
17:56:38 <atriq> This kind of thing is almost normal for me
17:56:38 <hagb4rd> uh that's nothing you should hear me play piano
17:58:46 <quintopia> i will accept a midi if you dont like ogg
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18:22:54 <hagb4rd> you can have a tiny riddle if you like.. what am i talking about?
18:22:59 <hagb4rd> it's greater than god but more wicked than the devil
18:40:07 <kmc> let's see what's in the box!!
18:41:01 <elliott> pretty sure it is elliott guys
18:43:07 <kmc> i was going to guess "cock"
18:43:11 <nortti> that guy is crazy: http://toastytech.com/files/95browsing.html
18:44:08 <elliott> -- nortti "64 megs of RAM forever" nortti
18:44:24 <kmc> http://toastytech.com/evil/index.html
18:44:30 <olsner> how old/new is SeaMonkey 1.1.20pre?
18:44:54 <nortti> olsner: seamonkey 1.1 uses same rendering engine as ff2
18:46:18 <olsner> ah, 2006, that's not too bad
18:47:05 <hagb4rd> cmon.. everything changed in the past six years
18:48:33 <hagb4rd> the folks started to read the documentation of javascript
18:48:56 <hagb4rd> and that changed everythign
18:49:20 <hagb4rd> no really. i begin to like it
18:52:26 <hagb4rd> there is a young demo scene growing out there.. well protected from sight by shitty seo configuration
18:54:33 <quintopia> kmc: is your cock greater than god?
18:57:23 <kmc> bigger than jesus
19:01:16 <hagb4rd> that is a real oldskool reinvented method of getting things 'animated'..
19:01:27 <hagb4rd> affecting the palette! http://www.effectgames.com/demos/canvascycle/
19:04:01 <hagb4rd> cmon guys tell me you're shedding tears of joy now
19:09:59 <kmc> yeah these are nice
19:12:26 <kmc> it's not just "reinvented", these images were actually created 20 years ago
19:12:30 <kmc> http://www.effectgames.com/effect/article.psp.html/joe/Old_School_Color_Cycling_with_HTML5
19:13:28 <hagb4rd> it's donw with canvas and js
19:14:23 <kmc> does anything, like, have a point, man?
19:15:16 <FreeFull> The important point is that the colours in the pallete are changing smoothly rather than just changing positions
19:15:33 <kmc> is that also how they were originally displayed on PC hardware
19:16:01 <hagb4rd> the magick was done by these genious potheads peeking and poking some values around the memory to make it happen
19:16:12 <hagb4rd> and that is what i always adored
19:17:06 <hagb4rd> don't know if they all died in between or what
19:17:08 <FreeFull> Well, when you change the VGA palette, it's not a direct memory access
19:17:12 <FreeFull> You have to use the OUT instruction
19:17:33 <FreeFull> The genius part is changing it continuously rather than setting it once and then drawing what you want
19:17:54 <FreeFull> If you changed it fast enough, you could get more than 256 colours on the screen
19:18:03 <hagb4rd> the genious part is some you or me never reach
19:18:23 <FreeFull> hagb4rd: Once you know about it, it's easy to do
19:18:29 <FreeFull> But thinking it up probably isn't
19:18:36 <hagb4rd> yes you can go know and copy what you have learned
19:18:46 <hagb4rd> but stop pissing on my grave
19:18:59 <kmc> what are graves for if not pissing
19:19:07 <kmc> i wonder if anyone has a functional urinal as a gravestone
19:19:11 <kmc> that would be pretty cool
19:19:14 <kmc> subvert the blah blah
19:19:40 <FreeFull> I'm impressed with the artist that made the pictures
19:19:55 <kmc> in some of europe they have these public urinals where are desparately needed in america
19:20:59 <FreeFull> If you click on options, you can see how the palette entries change
19:21:12 <kmc> the ones that are just like one huge piece of plastic with + cross section, shaped into four urinals
19:22:53 <hagb4rd> okay.. thank god(or elliott) we don't need a president here
19:22:57 <FreeFull> kmc: Are you going to have your grave be an urinal?
19:23:13 <kmc> probably not
19:23:39 <hagb4rd> no.. before he dies we will overthink overthrow these ideas
19:23:56 <hagb4rd> and maybe than we come to the conclusion to make it an urinal
19:24:22 <hagb4rd> shit. always do that wrong
19:24:52 <kmc> shizzle for rizzle
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19:34:40 <hagb4rd> yes, i think so. not as much as 10 years ago but.---sure
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19:35:28 <hagb4rd> by the fuckin way: elite4 is coming! (seen elliott?)
19:35:51 <hagb4rd> we have talked much bout elite here..did't we?
19:37:23 <hagb4rd> i do not prefer a genre.. but to give you some names: ian bell, john romero, carmack, molyneux, warren spector.. or lord british richard garriott :>
19:37:47 <Phantom_Hoover> hagb4rd, uh i don't know what you're so eager about, it's just hype from a has-been yearning for his glory days
19:38:19 <quintopia> hagb4rd: i dont know those names really
19:39:11 <Phantom_Hoover> and a lot of talking about procedural generation like it's a panacea in an age when skyrim runs on standard hardware
19:39:16 <hagb4rd> no. i won't talk about sensuality with tc machines as you are hoover
19:39:51 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm not sure if i want to discuss your robot fetish anyway
19:40:52 <hagb4rd> it's that we shall never forget things beeing setup for us.. not us for the things
19:45:47 <ion> http://kdvr.com/2012/11/08/mile-high-city-mystery-ufo-sightings-in-sky-over-denver/ http://youtu.be/KAROcbv4gco?t=24s
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20:14:13 <FreeFull> What sort of camera do they use that they are too fast to see with the naked eye but the camera captures?
20:14:36 <FreeFull> High-fps cameras are pretty specialist equipment
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20:26:00 <nortti> http://plan9.stanleylieber.com/1995/p95.flp
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20:28:35 <nortti> but if you want to know it is plan9 on a floppy disk
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20:29:40 <nortti> it has the old 8½ windowing system instead of rio
20:30:15 <elliott> wasn't 8½ worse than rio in every way tho
20:30:49 <nortti> do you mean from user's or developer's perspective?
20:31:06 <elliott> rio code is pretty simple iirc
20:31:48 <nortti> (btw rio was released in 2002)
20:32:17 <nortti> I thought you were thinking why it didn't have rio
20:32:48 <ion> https://twitter.com/NotANark
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20:34:43 <nortti> well from developers perspective there seems to be not very many differences that I can tell with quick look and on user's perscpective 8½ and rio both work about the same
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21:10:08 <Gregor> Well there's your problem.
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22:07:02 <Gregor> http://blog.cafepress.com/?p=12190 Behold as CafePress proposes a bad solution to an irrelevant problem! Because they just couldn't stay the hell out of politics ^^
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22:08:00 <kmc> i think you have been trolled Gregor
22:08:55 <atriq> That just made me think of Gregor in grey face-paint and with orange horns
22:09:15 <Gregor> kmc: It's obvious that they're only posting about it to try to ride the politics wave, but that's not the same as trolling.
22:09:26 <elliott> Gregor: u realise that post is pretty obviously a joke rite
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22:10:54 <Gregor> Dood, ur lying, photoshop “make watercolor” filter + printing on canvas = COST SAVINGS
22:11:08 <kmc> split hairs all you like, what i mean is that it's a not terribly serious suggestion, intended to get linked around by people as viral marketing
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22:14:30 <kmc> let's all program in Whitespace and get brickbrained
22:19:47 <Bike> Whitefuck. doubles as the official esolang of stormfront
22:19:50 <atriq> Apparently there is another rogue brickster about
22:19:57 <kmc> my mistake
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22:20:18 <kmc> maybe i should add it to my polyglot then
22:20:24 <Phantom_Hoover> it was also made by one of epigram's creators so i can't really brickbrain him
22:20:53 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: What if I make a Whitespace derivative?
22:21:24 <atriq> Like Black and White and Read All Over?
22:22:23 -!- Arc_Koen has joined.
22:23:21 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
22:23:33 <lambdabot> oerjan said 19d 9h 21m 11s ago: that doesn't quite fit my intuition of "reversible" as it seems at best injective and not bijective. btw have you looked at Kayak?
22:23:34 <lambdabot> quintopia said 13h 59m 36s ago: it starts at the beginning of the program, just like the instruction pointer.
22:24:36 <Arc_Koen> kmc: about your "circlejerk.ml" comment: was it just a joke in reaction to something I had said, or do I really behave like a jerk?
22:24:51 <kmc> no you don't, sorry
22:25:02 <kmc> there was discussion of circular buffers
22:25:15 <kmc> and i was like "hmm, what's like circles but funny? circlejerks, because penis"
22:25:21 <kmc> this is roughly how my mind works
22:25:52 <Arc_Koen> I'm not sure I get the pun but at least I'm sure now :)
22:25:54 <elliott> Arc_Koen: trying to interpret things kmc says?
22:26:02 <Arc_Koen> thing is with irc you never know how other people perceive you
22:26:07 <kmc> i understand
22:26:18 <shachaf> I can confirm this is a good first-order approximation of kmc's mind.
22:26:20 <elliott> i just assume kmc hates everyone
22:26:28 <kmc> nooooo i like you all
22:26:54 <elliott> ok i guess he isn't actually annoying nowadays
22:26:55 <kmc> pretty sure
22:26:59 <elliott> ok i thought of someone else but they're in the channel
22:27:05 <atriq> It's funny and a bit depressing when elliott and kmc start talking about the Big Bang Theory (TV channel)
22:27:10 <kmc> it's not itidus is it
22:27:22 <elliott> atriq: fsvo talking about equal to idly dissing
22:27:25 <elliott> also didn't that happen like once
22:27:32 <atriq> elliott, at least twice
22:27:53 <kmc> i can't read
22:28:50 <elliott> man that took like 15 lines
22:28:53 <elliott> i totally deserve more than whatever
22:29:01 <kmc> eat a dick
22:29:12 <kmc> eat a dick truancy-bot
22:29:14 <atriq> Wow, I forgot I had Pink Floyd on this computer
22:29:22 <atriq> I'm not a huge fan of Pink Floyd
22:29:24 <elliott> hey has pbf updated since last time i checked
22:29:33 <kmc> haspbfupdatedsinceelliottlastchecked.com
22:38:34 <fizzie> Man, the robotfindskitten dev list has been *full* of ESR lately.
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22:43:54 <Phantom_Hoover> there are 2 people in this channel who have projects that esr thinks himself the central figure of?
22:44:03 <kmc> fuck that guy
22:44:31 <atriq> Perry Bible Fellowship
22:45:10 <fizzie> I'm not sure about "central figure"; though I did get the feeling from the posts that he's very proud of his git prowess.
22:45:10 <kmc> a shameless self-promoter who has latched onto the free software movement and declared himself a central figure despite doing fuck all
22:45:54 <atriq> I'm quite proud of my git prowess
22:46:19 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/NAKQ mainly from that.
22:47:33 <FreeFull> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Esr.jpg
22:48:05 <coppro> FreeFull: the scale tops out at 1
22:52:06 <fizzie> "I'll do the merge work - I have a *lot* of experience at this sort of thing and in general at making VCSes do tricks. It won't take long." Also that. But I can't find the message where his advertised-in-advance highly clever script for CVS-to-git conversion was published; it was about eight lines around a "git cvsimport".
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22:53:49 <kmc> he wrote a program to scrape your project data out of sourceforge or whatever
22:54:03 <kmc> which was like 2000 lines of perl using regexes to 'parse' HTML
22:54:18 <kmc> and it got posted to Hacker News
22:54:28 <elliott> <fizzie> Man, the robotfindskitten dev list has been *full* of ESR lately.
22:54:41 <kmc> the half of the site that hadn't heard of him was like "uh, this is ok for a beginner, but you should really learn about parsers and code style and stuff"
22:54:58 <kmc> and the other half was like "This is ESR!!!!! He wrote the book about how to be a hacker! His code is genius!!!!!"
22:55:04 <elliott> was the other half saying but it's ERIC s. RAYMOND don't you KNOW who that IS
22:55:34 <elliott> fizzie: so is esr actually on the rfk devteam :(
22:56:35 <fizzie> Ah, here's the "good tool"; http://sprunge.us/bPVd (Or maybe ESR wrote git cvsimport? I don't know.)
22:57:45 <fizzie> elliott: I guess; he sent a few patches and has been really active about this repository thing. That probably qualifies.
22:58:08 <kmc> which reinforces my dedication to avoid self-identifying as a 'hacker'
22:58:11 <elliott> fizzie: i like his html signature
22:58:25 <elliott> kmc: it's ok that's what esr "i am a hacker" esr tells people to do anyway
22:58:42 <elliott> kmc: hacker is a title of honour!!
22:58:43 <kmc> now i'm a hacker :(
22:58:45 <elliott> people have to bestow it on you
22:58:52 <elliott> don't worry ur code is shit lmao im never going to call you a hacker
22:59:12 <kmc> i thought the main way you get to be a hacker is to argue on hacker news about what it means to be a hacker
22:59:18 <kmc> and also to care a lot about what paul graham and esr say
23:00:35 <elliott> WordPress.com accepts Bitcoin (en.blog.wordpress.com)
23:00:45 <elliott> oh my god i always wanted to give wordpress.com money!!
23:01:01 <elliott> (jesus christ the author's picture)
23:01:55 <fizzie> Though the whole rfk-dev has been totally quiet since Nov 8. Maybe ESR is on a tour somewhere?
23:01:58 <fizzie> I don't even know why I'm on the list, it's not like I have anything to do with the "POSIX version".
23:02:09 <elliott> fizzie: did they ever add you to the site
23:02:18 <elliott> "that guy made fun of me on IRC once!!"
23:02:44 <fizzie> They did, as first of N new ports that were going to be revealed.
23:02:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: apparently everybody loves eric raymond is still stuck on its last comic which was a joke about how it hadn't updated for a year
23:03:10 <fizzie> Then K, where K < N, actually were, and things again quieted all the way down.
23:03:29 <fizzie> Until these recent happenings.
23:04:13 <fizzie> http://robotfindskitten.org/aw.cgi?main=software.rfk#ti86 -- there it is.
23:05:29 <Bike> jesus, that has almost as many ports as Doom
23:07:18 <fizzie> We have "the TI crowd" and the "crowd HP the" (it's a RPN joke), and they're very antagonistic.
23:08:04 <elliott> wouldn't it be "HP crowd the"
23:08:10 <elliott> "a op b" becomes "a b op", after all
23:08:34 <fizzie> I'm not sure what the words in question do. But anyway.
23:09:04 <fizzie> I had a TI-86 just because there was a whole-class discount order thing; I didn't really know anything about the camps back then.
23:10:08 <fizzie> The calculator scene might be very different these days though.
23:10:50 <atriq> I know one person with a TI
23:11:14 <fizzie> TI has gone fancy (ARM?) with the... TI-Nspire series, and from what I hear HP now bundles infix mode in their calculators, though it's still just optional.
23:11:41 <kmc> go back to reverse poland
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23:36:01 <Arc_Koen> ok, stargate sg-1 is getting really boring
23:36:16 <Arc_Koen> even michael shanks looks bored
23:36:27 <Arc_Koen> "oh, religious fanatics. yeah, been done that road before."
23:36:45 <Gregor> What season are you on?
23:37:08 <Arc_Koen> and I need *you* to tell me why I should keep watching
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23:37:35 <Gregor> Arc_Koen: Because it never became a space soap opera, like all the other sci-fis are now.
23:38:02 <Arc_Koen> to say the truth I haven't been wathing that much sci-fi
23:38:42 <Arc_Koen> a friend convinced me that stargate was so great, and got me hooked up
23:38:53 <Arc_Koen> one of the first episodes he showed me was "window of opportunity"
23:39:22 <Arc_Koen> but seriously, those auri guys suck, don't they?
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23:39:53 <pikhq_> Arc_Koen: You went past the point it should have ended, of course you're bored.
23:40:01 <Gregor> There's a reason why it got canceled at S10 :)
23:40:12 <pikhq_> The whole Auri thing is "... Why haven't we been canceled yet? We wrapped up all conflict!"
23:40:15 <Gregor> When they'd totally expended their main enemy and were just grasping for straws, that was the end.
23:40:36 <Arc_Koen> the final battle was somewhat boring as well
23:41:02 <Gregor> Naw, you haven't seen the movie w/ whats-his-face yet, THAT'S the final Goa'uld battle.
23:41:04 <Arc_Koen> and I must say I liked the original replicators and it's a shame they went down that easy
23:41:25 <olsner> oh no, are you in goa'uld land again
23:41:39 <Arc_Koen> yeah I figured since it seemed to have been shot in 2008 I had to watch the series to the end first
23:42:04 <Gregor> Arc_Koen: The series is far from unwatchable in S9-10, just don't expect it to be as good as the rest *shrugs*
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23:42:08 <Arc_Koen> (that's kinda the issue with the replicators: they made them so powerful that it's always a "all or nothing" thing)
23:43:48 <Arc_Koen> well I'll try to watch a few more before I make an opinion
23:44:30 <kmc> http://spdblotter.seattle.gov/2012/11/09/marijwhatnow-a-guide-to-legal-marijuana-use-in-seattle/
23:44:48 <Arc_Koen> but that was a huge disappointment. the wraith seem better than the auri but still way less interesting than the goa'uld
23:45:00 <Arc_Koen> and I suspect they've been using one actor to play *all* the wraith
23:45:44 <Arc_Koen> (though that would explain why the lower-ranked wraith all wear a mask that hides their face completely-
23:46:47 <pikhq_> The wraith were at least invented as more than "Oh shit, we still need to make episodes?.
23:48:05 <kmc> "Also, you probably shouldn’t bring pot with you to the federal courthouse"
23:48:37 <kmc> ah federalism
23:48:59 <kmc> this is surely what the founding fathers had in mind
23:49:06 <kmc> but can i smoke up at the post office???
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23:49:28 <pikhq_> Everyone *knows* the Founding Fathers wanted a strong central government.
23:49:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Arc_Koen, but have they kidnapped crichton and aeryn yet
23:49:59 <pikhq_> Which is why they put in the interstate commerce clause!
23:50:00 <kmc> in boardwalk empire the prohies set up at the post office because it's the only federal building in atlantic city
23:50:12 <kmc> possibly in real life as well
23:50:29 <Arc_Koen> do you mean, velociraptors' crichton?
23:51:48 <kmc> man those lines at the post office are long too
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23:53:25 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how every description of claudia black's character on wikipedia features 'sexy' in the first sentence
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23:56:48 <Arc_Koen> why is their a goa'uld glider in the opening sequence
23:57:28 <Arc_Koen> (I'm gonna assume claudia black portrays that weird alien girl who's fond of daniel jackson and dresses like a dominatrix)
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23:58:19 <Arc_Koen> I'm starting to believe she's gonna replace major carter
23:58:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Arc_Koen, oh, she hasn't changed too much since farscape then
23:58:50 <Arc_Koen> the beginning of episode 4 was *so* expected
23:59:31 <Arc_Koen> the one after they solved the initial intrigue
23:59:51 <Arc_Koen> that is, episode 1-2-3 deal with going to avalon and into another galaxy
00:00:05 <Arc_Koen> and at the end of episode 4, she takes the cuffs off
00:00:13 <Arc_Koen> no, at the end of episode 3, sorry
00:00:18 <Arc_Koen> and episode 4 starts with her leaving
00:00:36 <Arc_Koen> with unsurprising "oh hey I was hiding an artefact in my pocket" scenes
00:00:43 <Arc_Koen> and then daniel jackson collapses
00:01:08 <Arc_Koen> and then the opening sequence starts, and that's where I am
00:01:59 <Arc_Koen> but there is a goa'uld glider in the opening sequence, that's... disturbing
00:02:12 <Arc_Koen> though I guess they should be called "jaffa glider" now, or something
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00:02:56 <Arc_Koen> wooooow Amanda Tapping is still in the sequence
00:03:28 <Arc_Koen> well from what I could gather from the 8 first seasons the goa'uld haven't invented anything
00:03:42 <Arc_Koen> they just stick around for millenia and took stuff from about every culture in the galaxy
00:04:17 -!- sirdancealot has joined.
00:04:20 <Arc_Koen> and then 3 people from earth discover the stargate, and a couple years later, the goa'uld are all dead
00:04:55 <Arc_Koen> yeah they have a tendency to start all-out galactic wars by accident
00:05:21 <Arc_Koen> actually that's how season 9 starts :(
00:05:34 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:06:03 <Arc_Koen> "oh hey, now we at last are gonna have peace in our galaxy! finally! hey what's that device?" *teleports to another galaxy* *start an all-out intergalactic war* "oops"
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00:07:22 <Arc_Koen> that works for atlantis too (though in that case I guess they only "awakened" a war that had been slowly going on for the past ten millenia)
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00:08:22 <Arc_Koen> ok, the dominatrix girl is definitely not in the opening sequence
00:12:24 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.cosplayisland.co.uk/files/costumes/1333/26176/Vala%20Mal%20Doran.png
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00:47:39 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.thescifiworld.net/img/interviews/raelee_hill_03.jpg
00:47:51 <Arc_Koen> (she did make an entry in the previous season dressed in one of those darth vader clone trooper outfits)
00:48:36 <Phantom_Hoover> no, aeryn's costumes generally just have an overabundance of leather
00:52:01 <Phantom_Hoover> then there's most of the rest of that season, but i can't be arsed to check if it's on youtube
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02:30:48 <Arc_Koen> random thought of the day before I wish you sweat dreams:
02:31:19 <Arc_Koen> if I give my blood every other month until I'm too old
02:31:43 <Arc_Koen> is there a risk to develop a left elbow cancer?
02:32:14 <Arc_Koen> I just felt I had to share that thought :-)
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02:38:13 <kmc> is "nondeterminacies" a word
02:50:11 <quintopia> and you want indeterminacies probably
02:50:26 <kmc> i think i'm still not allowed to give blood
02:50:50 <quintopia> i'm ineligible until next november
02:51:18 <kmc> i think indeterminacies means something slightly different
02:51:29 <kmc> i want to talk specifically about the parts of a system which are nondeterministic, rather than just the ones whose state i don't know
02:51:34 <kmc> granted that is something of a subjective distinction
02:52:46 <quintopia> then say "nondeterminstic subsystem"
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03:43:26 <Sgeo> I feel like I'm being adored by my gf and her parents for what I consider to be basic human decency.
03:46:00 <pikhq_> I get the exact same feeling from my gf, oddly enough.
03:49:31 <Sgeo> Well, in this case, it's more one specific thing that happened today
04:04:08 <kmc> another way to phrase that is "i don't give myself enough credit for being a good person"
04:05:16 <pikhq_> I'd accept that phrasing.
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04:45:34 <Sgeo> Oh, didn't see your inquiries
04:46:42 <Sgeo> gf was feeling very sick at school and upset at being sick. I met up with her as soon as she texted (I was on campus), stayed with her at medical office, and until she got a cab to go home
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05:01:58 <pikhq_> "Poje", Finnish for "poke"
06:02:42 <kmc> play -n synth 5 sine 350 sine 440 channels 1
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06:16:19 <Sgeo> Is it pathetic that I'm using a Java decompiler on a .jar I made?
06:17:48 <kmc> not pathetic, just a little bit funny
06:17:56 <kmc> you do what you gotta do Sgeo
06:18:07 <Sgeo> I don't have to do it
06:18:20 <Sgeo> There are other ways for me to view the code
06:18:28 <Sgeo> Just right now I find the decompiler the most convenient
06:18:54 <Sgeo> (I did not download the decompiler for this particular .jar, but for another one for which a decompiler actually makes sense)
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06:52:41 <shachaf> 22:44 <SamanthaAD> mostly what I wanted to know when I came here was a general idea of why Haskell did everything with monads so I could see the way the languages was coming together in my mind as I progressed through the tutorials.
06:52:53 <shachaf> Why is the Internet so misleading? :-(
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07:00:43 <kmc> oh no i've learned how to use bash arrays
07:01:58 <kmc> also i have written some silly commands, like
07:01:59 <kmc> f() { echo : synth 0.2 sine $1 sine $2 channels 1 pad 0 0.1; }; play -n synth 2 sine 350 sine 440 channels 1 $(f 1336 852) $(f 1477 770) $(f 1209 852) $(f 1336 770) $(f 1477 697) $(f 1336 941) $(f 1477 852) : synth 2 sine 440 sine 480 channels 1 pad 0 4 repeat 99
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07:05:01 <shachaf> kmc: That's a weird experience.
07:07:07 <kmc> which experience is weird
07:07:10 <kmc> learning to use bash arrays?
07:07:39 <kmc> it's just the sound of dialing a phone
07:07:54 <shachaf> Unexpected, and even though I'd just run the command I immediately wondered what phone the sound was coming from.
07:10:05 <fizzie> Oh, is it that Jenny thing?
07:10:08 <shachaf> I don't know if I've ever heard the actual song.
07:10:21 <fizzie> I'm sure I haven't heard it, but I have heard of it.
07:10:32 <fizzie> Just not often enough to recognize the number.
07:11:03 <kmc> wow you decoded it
07:12:00 <fizzie> I'm a bit sad I didn't get to decode it from a waveform.
07:12:11 <fizzie> It would've felt so CSI-ish, I believe.
07:12:37 <Jafet> "It's in redbook. Fortunately, I speak redbook!"
07:12:51 <fizzie> (This was not a request for making a waveform with some other DTMF digits, I've got actual work to do.)
07:13:28 <fizzie> DTMF decoding was one of the Matlab exercises on the introduction-to-DSP course, I think.
07:13:41 <elliott> Death To Motherfuckers decoding
07:13:59 <elliott> the true meaning of christmas???
07:38:24 <Sgeo> I'm not sure whether to be impressed by JSONP or disgusted that it needs to exist.
07:39:20 <ion> sgeo: Yes.
07:40:18 <Sgeo> ...I feel like a derp for only realizing the horrific security implications after having read that part of the Wikipedia article.
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07:55:15 <ion> w64code4670: I think you accidentally the protocol.
07:55:37 <ion> I’m going to assume you meant gopher://
07:57:15 <fizzie> I assumed HTTP, but I think I assumed wrong, because there an ArgumentOutOfRangeException in c:\domains\mejesus.com\wwwroot\App_Code\MeCulture.cs, on the line if(avaliable.Contains(s.ToLower().Substring(0, 5))). (That's one detailed error message.)
07:58:23 <ion> So… not avaliable.
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10:13:09 <oerjan> the rumors of my death etc. etc.
10:13:09 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
10:13:15 <lambdabot> shachaf said 13d 10h 33m 36s ago: sorry
10:13:54 <oerjan> @tell shachaf YOU WILL BE SORRY
10:14:18 <lambdabot> oerjan said 24s ago: YOU WILL BE SORRY
10:14:37 <oerjan> it doesn't help that shachaf missed that i'd been there just two days before
10:15:13 <shachaf> oerjan: What was I sorry for, again?
10:15:22 <oerjan> i dunno, haven't got to that part yet
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10:17:48 <oerjan> 23:40:06: <elliott> shachaf: Maybe you shouldn't make jokes about oerjan dying.
10:17:51 <oerjan> 23:40:29: <shachaf> @tell oerjan sorry
10:18:47 <fizzie> Were they at least funny jokes?
10:19:32 <oerjan> i think they were undetectable jokes
10:19:48 <ion> @@ @tell shachaf @messages
10:20:45 <ion> @@ @tell shachaf @messages
10:20:49 <lambdabot> ion said 3s ago: shachaf said 17s ago: ion said 40s ago: You don't have any new messages.
10:21:21 <shachaf> oerjan: So you didn't die?
10:21:36 <ion> despite shachaf’s best efforts?
10:21:46 <oerjan> <shachaf> I bet he's logreading this right now <-- WOW SPOOKY
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10:22:10 <shachaf> ion: No way! oerjan > /me / 3
10:22:27 <fizzie> Is that a "fat guy" joke?
10:22:52 <fizzie> oerjan: You're worth barely a third of a shachaf, I think.
10:23:30 <shachaf> oerjan: Speaking of which, have you used any lenses lately?
10:23:54 <oerjan> nope, my eyesight is ... ok maybe i should have checked it again.
10:26:58 <oerjan> ok now the people in the logs are _actually_ joking about my death.
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10:27:36 <oerjan> and then it went downhill from there.
10:28:03 <oerjan> ...i'm just searching for my nick...
10:28:13 <oerjan> no intention of reading _everything_
10:31:26 <fizzie> I just searched for your nick too.
10:31:32 <fizzie> "Downhill" is kind of mildly put.
10:37:30 <oerjan> hm i'm still logged in on esolang on this computer
10:38:04 <oerjan> i sort of expected logouts to be global for a nick
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12:32:47 <ion> poonikins the magic warrior princess http://youtu.be/rt4p9A-U4Ko
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16:38:41 <Arc_Koen> ok, carriage interpreter in Ocaml seems to be working
16:58:08 <atriq> I was writing in Haskell, but I don't know if I'll bother
16:59:36 <atriq> Because CPressey already did
17:00:30 <atriq> On another note, how easy is it to set my computer up as a proxy server?
17:02:18 <Arc_Koen> I guess that depends a proxy server for whom
17:02:28 <Arc_Koen> buuuuut I really don't know anything about it
17:06:28 <kmc> and what kind of proxy
17:06:37 <kmc> What Are You Really Trying To Do (tm)
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17:39:13 <atriq> Well, the candidate I voted for lost quite badly
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17:47:33 <kmc> fedora code name?
17:48:01 <atriq> Police and Crime Commissioner
17:48:11 <atriq> Much less important
17:48:49 <atriq> But yeah, 16.4% turnout
17:48:54 <atriq> Not many people care
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17:50:58 <atriq> > (56 + 26.6) + 10.6
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17:55:27 <fizzie> lambdabot: Are you SURE?
17:55:50 <kmc> why didn't it print 93.2, HASKELL SUCKS
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17:56:09 <fizzie> Yeah, even the Windows calculator is better! (Disclaimer: didn't test Windows calculator.)
17:56:44 <kmc> windows calculator is 5 times as fast because it has fewer assembly instructions (disclaimer: did not measure speed) (disclaimer: did not look at disassembly)
17:56:59 <FreeFull> kmc: Because it doesn't use decimal/fixed-precision arithmetic by default
17:57:42 <FreeFull> Windows calculator calculates 2^100000 like a champ. Yep.
17:58:38 <kmc> LIKE A BOSS
17:59:33 <fizzie> > 2.0^100000 -- LIKE A CHUM
17:59:40 <elliott> We're impressed by your “haskell” tag answers on Stack Overflow. We appreciate your contributions, and would like to invite you to create a professional profile on Stack Overflow Careers 2.0.
17:59:41 <elliott> A Careers 2.0 profile is a great place to showcase your professional work as a programmer – Stack Exchange answers, open source projects, even the books you’ve read.
17:59:41 <elliott> Click here to accept the invitation. It’s free!
17:59:50 <elliott> guys I already have an account I just don't use it
18:00:42 <quintopia> cuz like...doesnt every poster get one?
18:01:20 <elliott> I actually do have a shitload of rep from the haskell tag though so if there was a reasonable threshold I would probably cross it
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18:09:09 <atriq> Trivia: GEDCOM doesn't support people having more than 999 children
18:11:49 <oerjan> i wonder how many have had that.
18:13:26 <oerjan> i recall that a significant fraction of asians are decended from the same man, theorized to be genghis khan. although that doesn't mean he'd have had to have that many directly.
18:14:18 <atriq> I heard 0.5% of everyone, and 5% of Asians
18:14:25 <atriq> He did rape, pillage, and burn a lot.
18:14:32 <atriq> If he focused on the first, he could maybe manage it,.
18:16:34 <kmc> if you look far enough into the future, odds are extremely high that either everyone alive is descended from you, or nobody is
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18:18:09 <Arc_Koen> kmc: 93.2 may be a more correct approximation, but it would mislead you into believing the answer is exactly 93.2
18:18:37 <Arc_Koen> whereas everyone knows what 93.1999999999999 means!
18:20:05 <Arc_Koen> kmc: would it be possible that every person x from generation (far enough into the future) is descended from *every* person y from generation (present)?
18:20:26 <kmc> some people will have their line die out
18:20:28 <Arc_Koen> assuming we dump those who don't have kids
18:20:35 <kmc> even if you have kids, your kids might not
18:20:54 <kmc> Arc_Koen: obviously it should use interval arithmetic by default
18:20:55 <Bike> there are also isolated groups, like the sentinelese.
18:21:00 <Arc_Koen> no, I mean, if my kids don't have kids, then we dump my kids, thus I don't have kids, thus we dump me
18:31:31 <oerjan> it might be possible that for some pair of generations, everyone who has descendants has all of the others as descendants
18:32:08 <Arc_Koen> Fatal error: exception Carriage.EXPLOSION
18:32:58 <Vorpal> heh, I finally got my SB Live card working under windows 7, with the alpha kX drivers. What a difference to the crappy on board Intel "HD" it is.
18:33:19 <Arc_Koen> of course that's what should be expected when being overconfident and putting raise (EXPLOSION) everywhere where something might go wrong, with no indication as to *what* went wrong
18:33:56 <Arc_Koen> examples 1 and 3 work fine, though
18:34:01 <kmc> raise TheRoof
18:34:44 <Vorpal> what language is it that uses "raise" to throw exceptions?
18:36:12 <Arc_Koen> you can also use failwith "some text here" , which is equivalent to let _ = raise (Failure "some text here") in ()
18:36:59 <Arc_Koen> that is, it is equivalent to ignore (raise (Failure "some text here"))
18:37:20 <oerjan> @hoogle Exception a => a -> b
18:37:20 <lambdabot> Control.Exception.Base throw :: Exception e => e -> a
18:37:21 <lambdabot> Control.Exception throw :: Exception e => e -> a
18:37:21 <lambdabot> Control.OldException throw :: Exception e => e -> a
18:38:42 <elliott> i feel like i should say something about ocaml sucking
18:43:57 <kmc> props for using correct sharp symbol
18:44:16 <Gregor> Well, I was actually referring to the musical note.
18:44:20 <Gregor> The language is fucking terrible.
18:44:28 <kmc> someone should make a language called F♯ A♯ ∞
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18:54:43 <elliott> kmc: did you know that C Sharp is actually officially C#
18:55:01 <elliott> kmc: I think there actually is an A♯
18:55:07 <elliott> so all someone has to do is make ∞ and then write a polyglot in 'em
18:56:28 <kmc> that sucks
19:00:00 <kmc> probably so
19:00:09 <kmc> i suck myself??
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19:09:01 <atriq> Grah GEDCOM is so ridiculously complicated
19:10:54 <kmc> Bike: now i am arguing with a friend about whether south sentinel island should count as an independent country
19:11:02 <kmc> they don't have international recognition, but neither do some other things he counts
19:11:15 <kmc> they have complete control over their territory and its foreign policy and trade
19:11:19 <quintopia> why no one tell me about this https://github.com/orangeduck/CPP_COMPLETE
19:12:32 <Bike> hahaha, you're welcome
19:14:17 <kmc> their claim to such is not really disputed either
19:15:57 <Bike> aren't they officially just sort of vaguely "administrated" by the indian government?
19:17:12 <elliott> "Ultimately just this should be enough for turing completeness. Using these truth tables one could theoretically make a binary computer much like has been done in systems such Conway's Game of Life or even Minecraft."
19:17:15 <elliott> that's only finite memory goddamn it
19:18:13 <elliott> oh good it gets fixed later
19:18:17 <quintopia> yeah, that sounded off to me too, but it does look like what he actually created /is/ at least a LBA
19:18:21 <Bike> i'm more disappointed that he didn't use NAND instead of AND
19:19:34 <elliott> /*! Empty Data Array - Extend for more Cells */
19:19:34 <elliott> #define BF_DATA_EMPTY() (0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0)
19:19:38 <elliott> so it's not a proof of turing completeness
19:20:26 <atriq> This should be really easy why isn't this really easy :(
19:21:38 <quintopia> it's not a TC proof, but it is a passable implementation of BF
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19:27:52 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: I thought it was more readable without the plainpres
19:28:12 <Arc_Koen> or maybe it would be better as a "horizontal" table?
19:28:49 <Arc_Koen> though the point of it being vertical is you can see identation
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19:29:25 <kmc> exec 3>&2 > >(ts >> log) 2>&1
19:33:32 <Arc_Koen> I sense some disagreement in that okay
19:33:42 <oerjan> the force is strong in this one
19:38:20 <oerjan> BUT IT'S RIGHT THERE HOW COULD YOU MISS IT
19:38:43 <Arc_Koen> must be some disturbance in the force
19:39:01 <Arc_Koen> atriq: how's your fueue interpreter going?
19:39:21 <atriq> Arc_Koen, I had a really weird error
19:39:31 <atriq> That worked differently when I tried to debug it
19:39:45 <Arc_Koen> tell me more I want to laugh too
19:40:01 <atriq> I said weird, not funny
19:40:26 <atriq> Running oerjan's Thue-Morse sequence program, it printed 0 then got caught in an infinite loop
19:40:30 <atriq> So I tried to debug it
19:40:55 <atriq> It printed "011" and errored trying to print an invalid character
19:42:18 <atriq> And because the code is awful, I'm gonna clear it and try again
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19:43:54 <Arc_Koen> I think I might have run is similar bugs
19:44:21 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: do you agree we blame this on your Thue-Morse sequence program?
19:47:20 <oerjan> well is there any interpreter which _does_ run it with the intended result?
19:48:19 <Arc_Koen> but they did have some problems the first times they encountered it
19:48:50 <Arc_Koen> what, just because one or two interpreters interpret it correctly, you assume there is nothing wrong with it?!
19:49:05 <oerjan> sure, that's the standard policy, right?
19:49:46 <Arc_Koen> what if the interpreters are wrong and it cancels out?
19:50:18 <oerjan> then everything explodes in gamma rays. also standard policy.
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20:42:51 <atriq> Okay, writing it like this makes it significantly shorter
20:43:01 <atriq> From about 100 lines of code to about 30
20:47:46 <atriq> Replaced a big nested case tree thingy with viewpatterns
20:49:36 <atriq> And it still behaves in the same way!
20:49:42 <atriq> The same, really incorrect way
20:50:35 <Gregor> Everybody stock up on Twinkies!
20:50:50 <Gregor> The Twinkies you buy now will be the last for the REMAINDER OF YOUR LIFE
20:51:28 <oerjan> what's Gregor babbling about
20:51:49 <Arc_Koen> hehehe just beat my father 8-0 in backgammon
20:52:05 <Arc_Koen> I think that's a pretty good argument in favour of "none of us knows how to play"
20:52:48 <Gregor> http://money.cnn.com/2012/11/16/news/companies/hostess-closing/
20:53:37 <oerjan> but but how then will america identify their future leaders
20:54:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
20:54:19 <Gregor> Please, HackEgo, run the epsilon program.
20:56:05 <Gregor> A world without Wonder “Bread” is a world not worth living in, my friends.
20:59:27 <oerjan> "The Bakery, Confectionery, Tobacco Workers and Grain Millers International Union"
20:59:44 <oerjan> one of these is even less like the others...
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21:10:37 <atriq> Hmm, that could be causing problems
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21:18:03 <atriq> Okay, the Fueue program that should print the alphabet is instead printing out ^A, \-91
21:19:51 <atriq> Arc_Koen, could you send me a run-through of the first couple of hundred steps of that program?
21:20:23 <Arc_Koen> for some values of "a couple", yes
21:20:54 <atriq> Does that include "a couple" == 2?
21:22:24 <Arc_Koen> truth is I don't have an option to count the number of steps
21:22:36 <Arc_Koen> so I'll try to interrupt it before it overflows my window
21:23:08 <atriq> Could you do "fueueinterpwhatever > file", and send me the file?
21:23:28 <Arc_Koen> I don't think I wanaa do that directly
21:23:41 <Arc_Koen> unless you can provide me with knowledge on how not to create an infinite-length file
21:24:22 <Arc_Koen> or can I do ./fueuec --print ')$2[)$--------2~)~~[)[)~(~[~[$~H~]~)%+~91-):]~1+:])]]~[$~H~])%+-91)[65][65]' > file and then still halt at any time with ^C or ^D ?
21:24:40 <Arc_Koen> wait, I seem to remember having that conversion with you a couple months ago
21:24:48 <atriq> I don't recall this
21:25:14 <Arc_Koen> hey can I combine that with sprunge directly?
21:26:18 <Arc_Koen> ok, how do I send that to you?
21:26:30 <atriq> Some pasting service?
21:26:32 <Arc_Koen> is there some nice way I can send an email directly from the shell?
21:26:47 <FreeFull> Originally email was only sent from the shell, Arc_Koen
21:27:13 <atriq> Not without setting it up, at least
21:27:33 <Arc_Koen> so can I do something like "email -from koen@stuff -to atriq@stuff -content Hello atriq how are you"?
21:27:57 <Gregor> It's not abuse, that's what it's there for X_X
21:30:30 <FreeFull> https://github.com/zodman/dpaster
21:30:58 <Arc_Koen> that looks incredibly complicated
21:31:13 <Arc_Koen> there are about 30 options and none of them seems to be the recipient's mail
21:31:39 <atriq> It will probably be easier to paste it somewhere
21:31:49 <Arc_Koen> in fact, it almost looks like I'm supposed to know stuff about email protocols
21:32:00 <Gregor> Arc_Koen: You're supposed to pass in the email headers.
21:32:12 <FreeFull> Just use dpaster from above or something similar
21:32:26 <Arc_Koen> I'm gonna use thunderbird for tonight
21:32:33 <Arc_Koen> but one day I sware i'll know how to send an email
21:32:48 <Gregor> Arc_Koen: Dude, email headers are ASCII pairs, it's not even remotely difficult X_X
21:33:12 <Gregor> To: whoever@wherever.com\nFrom: whosinwhatsit@wherever.weee\nSubject: I will eat your brains.\n\nBody
21:33:44 <Gregor> And /usr/sbin/sendmail -t is the only option you want.
21:34:00 <quintopia> i am intimately familiar with this structure, it being that i use vmail for my email, which has you edit the email document directly ;D
21:34:43 <quintopia> also, i believe you meant "Subject: Re: Your Brains\n"
21:35:14 <Gregor> Subject: Lunch? (was Re: Your brains)
21:39:05 <Arc_Koen> atriq: also all numbers in the queue are preceded with a space, so "- 2" means [subtraction, 2] whereas "-2" means [-2]
21:40:16 <Sgeo> atriq, elliott blah blah blah
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22:03:54 <atriq> Sgeo, Homestuck update
22:04:08 <Sgeo> I did the thingy.
22:04:58 <atriq> I thought that was you being annoyed at me and Arc_Koen for some reason
22:05:15 <atriq> Thank you for the thingy
22:06:18 <Arc_Koen> seeing as how similar "elliott" and "Arc_Koen" look
22:21:20 <atriq> Okay, it now successfully prints "A"
22:21:27 <atriq> And I know why it doesn't get onto "B"
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22:33:53 <Arc_Koen> now to write a fueue interpreter in fueue
22:34:21 <atriq> Oh don't you dare be wrong now!
22:34:30 <atriq> The Alphabet program works
22:34:39 <atriq> The Thue-Morse sequence program prints "0"
22:38:51 <atriq> And nothing else...
22:44:50 <atriq> Arc_Koen, could you give me a similar run-through for the Thue-Morse one?
22:48:09 <atriq> What unit is a "Mo"
22:48:37 <Arc_Koen> the o stands for octet, which is french for byte
22:49:02 <Arc_Koen> so, 1000000 bytes, or something
22:49:12 <atriq> Could you pipe it through "head -n 1000" or something?
22:49:16 <Arc_Koen> I never know whether it's 2^20 or 10^3
23:09:00 <kmc> that's a lot of bytes
23:09:34 <atriq> Especially seeing as it diverges from mine in about 12 lines
23:12:07 <elliott> <Arc_Koen> the o stands for octet, which is french for byte
23:12:37 <elliott> i guess french might use octet where others would use byte but
23:12:42 <elliott> octet is a term outside of french
23:12:51 <elliott> and actually octet and byte have subtly different meanings that nobody cares about
23:13:04 <Arc_Koen> yeah, "octet" has an "eight" thing into it
23:13:30 <shachaf> Hmm, someone should use "octave" for something.
23:13:35 <shachaf> As far as I can tell octave = bit
23:13:44 <Arc_Koen> but since "Mo" didn't ring a bell, I just assumed it was french
23:15:13 <shachaf> But you might be able to get away with octave = 12 bits?
23:15:29 <atriq> Now I need to write a main action, test it, make a back up, and then mess with it
23:15:46 <kmc> byte meaning 8 bits is like word meaning 16 bits except more so
23:16:19 <Arc_Koen> thing is we really don't have another word for byte in french
23:16:22 <kmc> i'm not sure what the distinction is between the machine-specific definitoins of byte and word, though
23:16:38 <kmc> other than that byte got fixed to 8 bits and people still needed a term for one unit for the machine
23:16:53 <Arc_Koen> (which is ok, because anyone caring about the distinction would do their work in english anyway)
23:16:55 <shachaf> People use "word" to mean 32 or 64 bits, though.
23:17:04 <shachaf> Sometimes they prefix it with "machine" or something.
23:21:46 <coppro> 02:40:18 < Sgeo> ...I feel like a derp for only realizing the horrific security implications after having read that part of the Wikipedia article.
23:21:57 <coppro> your intuition is bad and you should feel bad
23:23:01 <coppro> Sgeo: having dealt with someone who needs a lot of attention, it is on some level basic human decency, but there is definitely a point where it stops being because you have other shit to do
23:24:06 <atriq> Do I want to know context?
23:25:09 <Sgeo> First part about horrific security implications is about JSONP
23:25:37 <Sgeo> Second part is how I felt like I adored by my gf for having basic human decency for staying with her on campus when she got sick
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23:26:36 <atriq> I am not familiar with JSONP
23:26:42 <atriq> Or your girlfriend, for that matter
23:27:32 <Sgeo> My girlfriend is not dumb.
23:28:01 <coppro> was not talking about it
23:28:11 <atriq> How seriously sick are we talking?
23:29:11 <Sgeo> Nothing lethal.
23:31:23 <Sgeo> Sick as in "acutely sick in class"
23:31:56 <Sgeo> Actually, I can imagine using JSONP, if I control both services
23:33:01 <Sgeo> atriq, JSONP is the idea of doing an AJAX-like thing from a different domain by making a SCRIPT tag that src's the service and the service returns the data wrapped in a function call, function supplied by the requestor
23:33:04 <atriq> Okay, that sick, I would say it definitely is basic human decency
23:33:18 <coppro> yeah, if it's acute, definitely
23:33:21 <atriq> I'm gonna go now and probably sleep or something
23:36:08 <Sgeo> Apparently her ex wouldn't have done that. I asked.
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23:39:55 <monqy> but would her ex have asked
23:46:28 <Arc_Koen> Sgeo: My girlfriend is not dumb. / coppro: was not talking about it
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00:00:41 <shachaf> Is that the bf derivative that comes after cf?
00:01:53 <Phantom_Hoover> i realised that my minecart design means i have to completely break the system if i want to actually put a stop in
00:08:21 <ion> http://www.twitch.tv/refractstudios
00:10:23 <Gregor> Is printing business cards as the backs to playing cards brilliant or terrible?
00:11:28 <FireFly> Depends on whether your identify yourself as "the Joker"
00:11:42 <ion> http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/16/apple-now-owns-the-page-turn/
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00:19:12 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I benefit from the fact that I have near-zero use for business cards. I just need enough for those rare few opportunity when somebody asks.
00:19:38 <Phantom_Hoover> you'll be left with a pack of cards with some of the cards missing
00:19:49 <Gregor> Eventually I'll be left with no cards X-D
00:20:10 <Gregor> Believe it or not, if I wanted a deck of cards to /play/ with, I wouldn't be putting my business card on the back.
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00:38:59 <Gregor> They're playing cards.
00:39:04 <Gregor> The front are playing card fronts.
00:41:17 <Arc_Koen> well by that logic, the backs would be playing card backs
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00:57:24 <Sgeo> Clearly, these cards are half a playing card
00:57:44 <Sgeo> In order to be a full deck, Gregor needs to print cards with a playing card back and a business card front
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01:02:58 <kmc> today is one of those days where i have O Canada stuck in my head for no discernible reason
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01:06:13 <Arc_Koen> hey, hum, can someone help me with Betterave?
01:06:14 <Arc_Koen> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Betterave
01:06:30 <Arc_Koen> in your opinion, what does [ | ] evaluate to?
01:06:34 <Arc_Koen> the last iteration of the loop?
01:06:41 <kmc> a robot butt
01:07:20 <Arc_Koen> or does it *not* evaluate (as in, evaluate to some trash value, that result in an error when used as an argument to another expression)
01:07:35 <kmc> not coincidentally known as "bottom"
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01:14:43 <HackEgo> nux_vomica: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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01:18:43 <Sgeo> Because someone came in here and then left
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01:20:39 <elliott> well it's obvious they were in here for the other kind of esoterica
01:24:11 <Arc_Koen> "Brainfuck derivatives (129 members)"
01:28:57 <Phantom__Hoover> especially because anyone trying to add their own substitution has to directly acknowledge that they are just adding 8 more symbols to a table
01:34:59 <Sgeo> Not if I make the following BF derivative! BF -> my derivative separated by semicolons. + -> ++; - -> --; , -> ,,; . -> ..; < -> <<; > -> >>; [ -> [[; ] -> ]]
01:35:08 <Sgeo> That's not just 8 symbols added to a table.
01:35:21 <Sgeo> ...I may have equated symbols with characters.
01:35:51 <Bike> also you forgot a semicolon on ]].
01:36:50 <Sgeo> I did not intend to translate BF symbols into things containing semicolons, they're just separators in my description. Doesn't really matter though.
01:37:10 <kmc> 8=D, 8==D, 8===D, 8====D, 8=====D, 8======D, 8=======D, 8========D
01:37:33 <Phantom__Hoover> that would be better than a few of the derivatives currently posted
01:37:51 <kmc> how about one that used various numbers of swastikas
01:38:01 <kmc> would that be the worst one
01:40:29 <Bike> fungoid on a continous plane, and the only control mechanisms are variously resized and spun swastikas
01:41:54 <Bike> could call it, i dunno, Meatspin
01:42:41 <lifthrasiir> recently my friend came up with an idea of a language with only the high level operations (like image resizing) and no low level operations (like addition)
01:43:16 <monqy> what's high level and what's low level
01:43:19 <Phantom__Hoover> i'm not sure i'd distinguish those as high/low level but right
01:44:02 <lifthrasiir> Phantom__Hoover: hmm, if you prefer you can say domain-specific and general operations, but anyway.
01:44:03 <Bike> what if you were running this on a specialized Photoshop-oriented processor, huh
01:44:10 <monqy> language in which addition is implemented in terms of image resizing
01:45:04 <lifthrasiir> or, we somehow have 2D FFT and convolution but no pairwise multiplication. XD
01:46:28 <Phantom__Hoover> the only arithmetic operation is like the ackermann function
01:46:58 <Bike> the only arithmetic operation is the hyper operator? that doesn't seem too difficult to work with, really
01:47:49 <Bike> also if you had fft maybe you could do multiplication with schonhage or something, might be fun
01:48:11 <monqy> how about control flow
01:48:46 <shachaf> flow control > control flow
01:49:03 <monqy> how about flow control
01:49:08 <monqy> "now we're better"
01:49:35 <Sgeo> monqy, elliott time for me to do the thing
01:49:43 <shachaf> monqy: which one is if statements and which one is ^S
01:55:51 <Arc_Koen> Phantom__Hoover: I'm pretty sure if you do your big table we'll all support you
01:57:05 <Arc_Koen> we'll make a distraction so that he does not notice your addition!
01:57:15 <Arc_Koen> hey that should be an operation
01:57:52 <Bike> move the pc to a random position for a few instructions
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02:05:45 <Arc_Koen> might be useful in corewars/bf joust/whatever
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02:17:06 <monqy> i had lots of dreams that i havent been sharing so i will share them now it'll be great
02:17:17 <monqy> reverse chronological order
02:17:25 <zzo38> OK, if that you want
02:18:30 <monqy> In the last dream, I had a friend whose boyfriend is really dumb at driving. we were riding with him driving and he tries to take a shortcut through the hayride racetrack but there's a dog show going on so it's filled up with dogs and it goes really slowly since we have to carefully avoid the dogs
02:18:39 <monqy> and then there are people and they're sorta crowding so we have to wait for them to pass by
02:19:31 <monqy> one of the people starts quoting a web series that exists in this dream called "super mario hat" that makes fun of people who make fun of people who like video games, but nobody gets it and they think he's insulting us, but they agree with the insults and gather around and form an agreement party
02:20:19 <monqy> i'm snickering because even though "super mario hat" is not all that great it is amusing that everyone thinks he's serious while he's being so ridiculous and they also agree with him. he has to explain and the party disperses
02:21:14 <monqy> in another dream there are two parts
02:21:35 <elliott> monqy: super mario hat sounds amazing
02:22:09 <monqy> first part is there's an artificial pool but it's really big and there's a boat in it and i'm on the boat. I forget what goes on in the boat until an evil guy who's of high ranking status or something starts shoveling coal into the ventilation system and the boat goes topsy and rocks wildly a bunch before tipping over
02:22:29 <monqy> whenever it rocked I went to the opposite sides and found a window so I could jump if it tipped so I did that and escaped
02:22:49 <monqy> a bunch of other people escaped too idk if anyone died in there but a bunch of people's eyes got all messed up by air pressure or something
02:23:16 <monqy> I think someone was surprised I took a window out idk how other people got out it's a mystery. someone got hit by something heavy on the way out but survived with messed up eyes
02:23:45 <monqy> anyway second part is I was in some sort of sequence of challenges and this one was titled something like "kill the mammot, making use of blinding it"
02:24:27 <monqy> there were really big boxes (too high to climb) and huge rolls of tape on them, and you were given a pickaxe and you could let the mammoth out whenever you felt like it
02:24:41 <elliott> was it kill the mammot or kill the mammoth
02:24:52 <elliott> also was the mammoth real. this sounds cruel!!
02:25:07 <monqy> I felt sorta bad about oh jeez how will I feel kimming a mammoth can I go through with it &c &c but I didn't stop doing the challenge
02:25:21 <Phantom__Hoover> monqy are you sure you don't have some sort of latent eye fetish
02:26:04 <monqy> my approach was knock down one of the huge rolls of tape, deflate it a bit so I could climb on it, use that to climb on the boxes, get above the mammoth chamber, release it, and now I have the height advantage and can jump on it and pick out its eyes
02:26:06 <elliott> monqy............ its not right to kill a mammoth
02:26:09 <elliott> i think you have poor morals!!
02:26:22 <monqy> I also throught of taping over its eyes but I'd be picking it to death anyway and picking out its eyes would probably be easier
02:26:26 <elliott> hahaha i like how eyes came up
02:26:29 <elliott> right after Phantom__Hoover brought them up
02:26:38 <elliott> well I guess it is implicit in blinding it but still
02:27:23 <monqy> I did some box leaping and tape stuff and got over to where the mammoth would be but then there was a fancy futuristic projector and someone came in the room and was like whats going on and dont touch that projector
02:27:36 <monqy> so I gently moved the projector out of the way down to the dude and I forget the rest of what happened
02:28:04 <monqy> and when writing down that dream when i wrote it down I remembered another dream I had with a sequence of challenges where my team had to kill a herd of elephants. did i ever describe that one
02:28:22 <monqy> that's basically all i remember at this point anyway.
02:28:31 <elliott> do your dreams have lots of challenges
02:28:33 <monqy> i ghuess there were hills or something in that dream
02:28:43 <monqy> the dreams before this don't have so many challenges
02:28:55 <monqy> oh right I should probably describe the dream I had last night before I forget it
02:29:50 <monqy> It was a branching story of sorts wherein the main protagonist wore a suit of chocolate armour and the main antagonists were a talking dragon named "xtahua" and his absentminded professor friend
02:31:17 <monqy> the only branch I really remember was one in which the main protagonist, the professor, and xtahua, teamed up to manage a hotel
02:31:23 <monqy> but it was like spooky or something
02:31:28 <elliott> monqy: did xtahua talk like xtahua
02:31:41 <Sgeo> I occasionally remember dreams
02:32:30 <monqy> another dream I had: I was playing a mario game but the overworld was platforming just like the levels and I beat all the normal levels but I also found a secret building
02:32:51 <monqy> with secret doors for each world, with key puzzles above them, but you could enter regardless of what you put for the key puzzle and this weirded me out
02:33:23 <Sgeo> http://www.dreamviews.com/f107/sgeos-dream-journal-53892/ http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/sgeo/
02:33:38 <monqy> so I went into the door for world 1 and beat the level but then these really creepy drawn versions of all the mario characters spoke to mea nd told me I didn't have anough points, and repeated "you can't touch us to save us" and "you can't touch me to save me" a bunch of times, and then they vanished
02:34:18 <monqy> I left the secret building and came back and the whole thing was different. the doors were scattered in hard to reach places but I got to I forget if it was the world 2 or 3 door but I played it and the same sorta thing happened but with different creepy mario characters
02:34:25 <Sgeo> Did you touch them to save them?
02:35:23 <elliott> monqy: is this why they removed secret doors
02:36:45 <monqy> another dream: I was time travelling or something in the bleak near-future where a bunch of people I know are dying and I forget exactly I was doing the time nonsense but yeah that's a dream
02:37:07 <monqy> another dream: Idk if I was myself or someone else but I was at a party with my family and it was being hosted by this other family that was all mysterious or something
02:37:12 <monqy> and my grreatest fear was vacuum cleaners???
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02:37:45 <monqy> It started raining and everyone left but for some reason I stayed around??? Then the family came out and they referred to the rain as "fear" and my arms became vacuum cleaners and I became their slave
02:37:59 <monqy> I went into their house and it was all dark and wherever I went anyone I found ran away from me
02:38:17 <monqy> and there was a room with religious paraphernalia but whenever you looked away and looked at it again it was from a different religion
02:38:20 <monqy> and sometimes it was wartime stuff
02:39:15 <monqy> another dream: what I remember of it centers around going to a restaurant to meet some family-friends we rarely meet
02:39:43 <monqy> for some reason we all brought camping gear with us but without bags to hold it, so I thought I'd be clever and put everything in my clothes holder so I only had to carry around one thing. more on this later
02:40:10 <monqy> we got to our table which was really long and the othe family was at the far end, so we got seated, started drawing on our placemats (???), and swapped seats rotating around the table to greet them (???)
02:40:24 <monqy> but then we ended up in the wrong seats so we had to sort out whose placemats were whose by how we drew on them
02:40:38 <monqy> the menu wasn't a menu so much as a bunch of recipes for what they served but it was all really weird
02:41:14 <elliott> <monqy> and my grreatest fear was vacuum cleaners???
02:41:31 <monqy> like they documented their secret sauce and it was something like "sour sauce" (??? i knew what this was in my dream so maybe I just don't remember the name), eggs that "missed their prime", ham that "missed its prime", and some other stuff
02:41:42 <monqy> and the picture had this stuff poured all over apples
02:41:51 <monqy> when the food was all over to leave the restaurant there werent any normal exits
02:41:57 <monqy> we had to go through a futuristic hanging simulator
02:41:59 <elliott> ok the concept of food that "missed its prime" in a recipe is
02:42:02 <elliott> the funneist fucking thing
02:42:15 <monqy> you put your head in and it simulated death by hanging but it's not supposed to actually kill you just simulate it
02:42:28 <monqy> my head didnt fit so well and then it started crushing my head and it wasnt fun getting unstuck
02:42:56 <monqy> anyway i looked back at my bag of stuff and it's all burnt because one of the things i put in it was my coal lantern with real fire that somehow existed and din't have any sort of safety preventing the heat from killing everything in my bag
02:43:13 <monqy> no it just crushed my head a bunch and I escaped
02:43:16 <elliott> imo this dream would make a good horror film
02:43:17 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy, have you ever read DCs Say The Darndest Things?
02:43:21 <monqy> anyway thats all i remember from this dream
02:43:24 <Sgeo> http://www.dreamviews.com/f28/dcs-say-darndest-things-19509/
02:43:29 <Sgeo> Thread on DreamViews
02:43:37 <Sgeo> About bizarre things dream characters say.
02:43:47 <monqy> i have my own dreams for that sort of stuff
02:43:59 <monqy> lessee wheres the next dream
02:44:03 <elliott> really wish i had monqy's dreams
02:44:06 <elliott> mine have all been lame recently
02:44:18 <monqy> so many dreams backlogged
02:44:22 <elliott> like the most recent even vaguely amusing thing was that time in a dream i was learning to play the electric guitar but
02:44:25 <elliott> instead of the strings going vertically
02:44:36 <elliott> and they were super bendy vertically so you like
02:44:46 <elliott> put your finger underneath one string, came out from underneath another one
02:44:48 <Sgeo> wtf is with these ads
02:44:51 <elliott> then pulled it up to the one you started with
02:44:55 <elliott> and that's how you twanged it
02:44:59 <elliott> and that's how you played the guitar
02:45:08 <elliott> maybe it wasn't electric come to think of it but yeah
02:46:02 <monqy> ok i think i found it
02:46:33 <monqy> I was in space with some friends fighting a space monster and one of them was like "alright we have to beat this guy and this is all the help we're going to get"
02:46:34 <zzo38> Someone told me they had a dream where the doctor asked him if he has ever been to the moon, once answered no, asked him to prove it.
02:46:44 <monqy> I remember that dream.
02:46:52 <monqy> but a bunch of other people showed up
02:46:59 <monqy> and he was like "alright this is all the help we're going to get"
02:47:12 <monqy> and then a cloud of space bees came in and stung the space monster and he said that thing again
02:47:19 <monqy> and I was thinking to myself "no it isn't"
02:47:30 <monqy> then a dinosaur on earth breathed a huge fireball that flew up into space and hit the space monster
02:47:33 <monqy> and I thought to myself
02:47:38 <monqy> "I knew the dinosaurs would help"
02:48:14 <monqy> I went to sleep for 2 weeks for some reason and when I woke up I had to go to some ceremony I forget what it was about and I guess some people thought I was dead I don't remember much of that
02:48:29 <monqy> but then I got home and there was a really angry kid and he was driving in a flying car that made tornados and storms
02:48:56 <monqy> my family had to flee so we jumped into the lakepond and we could breathe underwater and we swam to a secret underwater thing and my mother was like "ok we're going to stay here until this kid goes away"
02:49:11 <monqy> she presented the food we had for our stay and it was little tiny broken stale doughnut pieces
02:49:32 <monqy> but then there was another secret tunnel connecting to that that took us to grandmothers house so we thought we'd be safe there since the kid was after us
02:49:50 <monqy> but then the kid came therea nd it turns out the kid was after my grandmother and i figured this out but my family didnt listen and refused to flee
02:49:55 <monqy> so i fled but the kid was there
02:49:59 <monqy> and something in the house explode
02:50:21 <monqy> i watched as my family burned to death. i was able to save 2 of my sisters but they had really severe burns and their skin was all bubbly and stuff
02:50:33 <monqy> (i tried to save more but they died first)
02:50:55 <elliott> has your family ever burned to death irl
02:51:34 <monqy> another dream: the part I remembered: I was sleeping on a beach or something and people kept launching rockets near me that landed on the ground and then exploded
02:51:39 <monqy> it was a birthday surprise or something
02:51:41 <elliott> also how many sisters do you have........
02:52:03 <monqy> I had a birthday like every 2 days and each birthday i get more prepared for the shenanegans everyone threw at me
02:52:34 <monqy> i didn't like the explosions but i dodged them in a really stupid way. i just hopped around hunched over and spun around with my face facing the ground and even in my dream I thought to myself "this is really stupid"
02:52:46 <monqy> oh i have 3 sisters and 2 parents
02:52:58 <elliott> wow what a coincidence..... i have 2 parents too
02:54:09 <monqy> more dream: I had to pee really badly so I snuck into a fancy restricted restroom but it was too fancy and I couldn't find anywhere to pee there was like a hot tub and all the stalls were really mysterious and fancy
02:54:23 <monqy> so I went to akids playground bathroom but the bathroom was actually just structures in the playground that you pee into
02:54:31 <monqy> and wherever I went there were kids watching me
02:55:05 <monqy> oh it looks like i remembered another part of my dream but i describe it as "even stupider" i wonder what it was
02:55:08 <Arc_Koen> for some reasons the architects in my dreams always forget to build walls around bathrooms
02:55:12 <elliott> monqy: how was it restricted...
02:55:16 <monqy> "like really stupid why would i even dream that"
02:55:35 <monqy> it looks like i dont describe it
02:55:43 <Arc_Koen> hey do some of you guys have dreams that have been following you for a long time?
02:56:09 <monqy> sometimes I have dreams that in my dream I sort of have a feeling I've had this dream before but really I haven't
02:56:24 <Arc_Koen> well that's what I thought at first
02:56:25 <elliott> i've had recurring dreams i think. i don't have them any more though
02:56:33 <elliott> i stopped remembering dreams regularly years gao
02:56:50 <elliott> i remember one nightmare i used to have quite frequently (i think??) was i'd be on a metal ladder
02:56:56 <Arc_Koen> but since it became very recurrent I started thinking about it while awake
02:57:01 <elliott> like high up enough that if you looked down
02:57:04 <elliott> it looked like a satellite map
02:57:07 <Arc_Koen> so I'm pretty sure I've been having that dream for at least 8 years
02:57:10 <elliott> not so high you could see the curvature of the earth
02:57:23 <elliott> with someone else in it waiting for me
02:57:32 <elliott> and i continue climbing up it
02:57:36 <elliott> but instead it tips forward and falls
02:57:37 <Arc_Koen> the ladder breaks at some point doesn't it
02:57:45 <elliott> ps the ladder isn't supported by anything or whatever
02:57:51 <elliott> it's just hanging at the right angle somehow
02:58:24 <Arc_Koen> wait, at the right angle, do you mean it's just like a ladder you'd raise to a wall?
02:58:35 <Arc_Koen> as in, if you make the wall disappear the ladder would fall
02:59:02 <elliott> i guess it's actually resting on the balloon?
02:59:04 <Arc_Koen> that doesn't sound like something you'd want to use to climb to a balloon
02:59:13 <monqy> another dream: I was at something between something between summer camp and normal school and there were a bunch of buildings out in a field and some of them were rooms from my house and one of them wa sthe rest of my house without those rooms
02:59:30 <elliott> monqy: can you explain summer camp to me
02:59:45 <monqy> i got promoted to chair of the math club but then i got kicked out because of rumors i killed a man but i was accepted back in once they found out i only had a dream in which i killed a man and i did not actually kill a man
02:59:51 <monqy> i forgot the dream in which i killed the man tho
03:00:11 <elliott> monqy: did you ever kill a man
03:00:15 <monqy> explaining that i didnt actually kill the man was very stressful for me and i was told that "killing a man isnt something you can just say sorry for"
03:00:18 <monqy> i have never killed a man
03:00:24 <monqy> ive killed bugs though
03:00:32 <monqy> i've never killed a woman
03:00:35 <monqy> never killed children
03:00:38 <monqy> killed lots of bugs
03:01:21 <monqy> anyway then evil clones started popping up and they had red eyes and I tried to convince people that they were just evil clones but they wouldn't listen
03:01:32 <monqy> and then they became evil because the evil clones rubbed soap in their eyes
03:01:50 <monqy> I discovered that you can become non evil by washing the soap out with water
03:02:01 <monqy> eventually everyone except me became evil ( I almost became evil but I washed my eyes)
03:02:11 <monqy> then there was a montage of everyone being evil and chasing me
03:02:37 <Arc_Koen> they always had those thing in chem lab designed to wash your eyes in case you'd put something dangerous in them
03:02:41 <monqy> I also remember there was a thing that because everyone thought I had killed a man I wasn't allowed to do anything at the camp until I had used my id info 14 times
03:03:00 <monqy> you could sign in and stuff by holding a special sheet of paper near a magical thing that detected it and signed you in
03:03:16 <Arc_Koen> hey had you had dreams where the whole universe was just an abstract board game?
03:03:29 <Arc_Koen> the recurring dream I had involved that
03:03:44 <monqy> the dream i had where i fought shrek on a flying aircraft carrier might have qualified
03:03:59 <monqy> but thats a different dream
03:04:03 <Arc_Koen> a two-dimensional thingy, plus with a time dimension, and when I'm awake I just CAN'T figure out a way for it to make sense
03:04:21 <Arc_Koen> and in the end the universe always lose
03:04:35 <monqy> anyway also the parts of the camp that were my house had all the stuff in their rooms shuffled around and some were cleared out and had other stuff put in like arcade machines
03:04:38 <Arc_Koen> and since I've been having this dream for years I know it'll come to that
03:04:57 <elliott> <monqy> the dream i had where i fought shrek on a flying aircraft carrier might have qualified
03:05:00 <Arc_Koen> I've never been able to prevent the universe from losing so I developed a strategy to prevent the universe from realizing it had lost
03:05:18 <monqy> elliott: haven;t i already told you about this one
03:05:42 <monqy> i'll...see if i can find it
03:06:13 <monqy> yeah I found it in my logs of private query w/ you
03:06:23 <monqy> i can repeat it tho
03:07:09 <monqy> i'll just repeat all the dreams in this log since i dont think any of them were shared in here
03:08:09 <monqy> first dream: I'm watching something on television (which I only realized later). It's a story about one of those "some shameful trait anonymous" clubs where the shameful trait is "I hate aliens"
03:08:16 <Arc_Koen> yeah hum it's 4am here and I wake up at 8 tomorrow so I'm gonna go and have actual dreams
03:08:20 <monqy> It's the first meeting and I remembered two of the members' introductions
03:08:32 <monqy> they introduced themselves with stories about why they hate aliens
03:08:57 <monqy> the first guy's story is that he's going to see this woman for I forget the reason but he was looking at her very closely because he'ls afraid she'll stab and kill him
03:09:02 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: have to quit now otherwise I won't be able to stop myself from reading your story!).
03:09:30 <monqy> she invites him for wine on her sofa and pours him and herself each a glass; he starts sipping but she doesn't touch her wine, but rather rambles about how she really likes the wine and how it's great and how other wines aren't
03:10:10 <elliott> mmm i'm starting to remember
03:10:12 <monqy> despine not drinking anything, she gradually becomes more and more intoxicated and eventually things she's a bale of hay
03:10:26 <monqy> forgot to mention: the guy's name is "Ichihot" which is significant later
03:11:27 <monqy> Ichihot finds the whole hay deal really hilarious and starts laughing uncontrollably; the girl says she has to ventillate and staggers to another room and faints while Ichihot continues giggling
03:11:32 <monqy> I don't remember what this has to do with aliens
03:12:03 <monqy> She introduces herself as Ichicold--my dream self found this hilarious and started laughing uncontrollably and I fell off of my dream sofa (this is how I know this was on a tv--and tells her story
03:12:35 <monqy> when she was a kid she transfered schools and she was really upset because despite still getting adjusted she was required to tall all of the responsibility of any other student
03:13:01 <monqy> one day it was ufo dance (sort of like a rain dance but with ufo) day so the whole school stood in the field in front of the schoolbuilding and danced and ufos appeared overhead
03:13:12 <Sgeo> "tall" as in tall is a verb in your dream, or tall as in a typo?
03:13:13 <monqy> Ichicold looked around and suddenly there were people with paper bags over their heads everywhere
03:13:29 <monqy> oh I meant take, I think
03:13:36 <monqy> yeah that was supposed to be take
03:13:51 <elliott> monqy: btw was the tv show fictional
03:14:37 <monqy> anyway, one of the paper bag people walks up behind her, taps her on the shoulder, she turns around startled, paper bag guy takes off his bag (he's male) and introduces himself as Alice
03:14:44 <monqy> Ichicold screams for a minute straight and I wake up
03:14:47 <monqy> (she really hates aliens)
03:15:29 <elliott> how did you know it was a minute
03:15:40 <monqy> I think it was actually "like a minute"
03:16:45 <monqy> ok more dream. first part is the one with shrek
03:17:03 <monqy> I'm on an aircraft carrier thing but it's flying?? And all the planes on it are buses with wings and they are in boxes
03:17:40 <monqy> I was wandering around on the surface and spotted shrek there and he attacked me and everything became a grid and I had to move where I could throw a car diagonally and it had a 3x2 area of effect so I tried using that but shrek kept stepping out of range
03:18:13 <monqy> eventually I backed him off the edge and he fell so I got in one of the box bus planes (to rescue him?? to finish the fight?? to make sure he dies?? idk) and tried flying it but it just slid off the side and fell
03:18:24 <elliott> monqy: you could say shrek was a
03:18:25 <monqy> oh wait that dream only had one part and that's it
03:18:42 <monqy> they were called chainsaw ogres but wheres the chainsaw here
03:18:59 <elliott> well shrek is an ogre and i was just thinking stepping out of range of chainsaw ogres
03:19:23 <monqy> part one. it's friend day and during friend day my dad keeps pestering me about how he'll get me a new printer. end of part.
03:19:40 <monqy> no this is dream 2
03:19:40 <elliott> or is this a non-linear dream
03:19:45 <monqy> the other dream had only one part
03:19:50 <monqy> i messed up in the log
03:19:51 <monqy> which threw me off
03:20:11 <monqy> second part. I'm reading a video games webcomic (???) and wow it was amazing (???)
03:20:26 <monqy> it was a party and there were lots of people and suddenly one by one some of them started dying
03:20:44 <monqy> everyone freaks out and leaves except for the protagonist and his dim-witted sidekick who call up investagative forces
03:21:06 <monqy> investigative forces look around and discover the cause was a bunch of unusual tf2 items with a sparkly effect
03:21:18 <monqy> next panel is a tf2 inventory and I can't remember all the items but there was like
03:21:26 <elliott> <monqy> second part. I'm reading a video games webcomic (???) and wow it was amazing (???)
03:21:34 <elliott> monqy: how did you not realise you were dreaming at this point
03:21:53 <monqy> thats funny because its different in the log
03:21:58 <monqy> 21:28 <monqy> I'm reading a VIDEO GAMES WEBCOMIC (ha ha ha) and wow it was amazing
03:22:01 <monqy> 21:28 <elliott> all video games webcomics are amazing
03:22:24 <elliott> monqy: you realise i was joking right ?
03:23:07 <monqy> anyway the items were like unusual menoral, unusual spruce sapling, unusual chandelier, unusual questionable bamboo fragments (basically rotted snapped off segments of bamboo trees), unsuual d20
03:23:11 <monqy> so the dim-witted sidekick says
03:23:22 <monqy> WOW WITH ALL OF THESE SPARKLES WE COULD SURE HAVE A PARTY
03:23:38 <monqy> and then, on its own panel, which was the last panel, and it was big (it was the punchline): the protagonist yells at him:
03:23:49 <monqy> IT IS BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT WE DO NOT HAVE A UNIFIED THEORY OF ORDER
03:23:57 <monqy> i couldn't stop dream-laughing it was great
03:25:52 <monqy> lesse wheres the next dream
03:26:15 <monqy> dream: I was experiencing the future and the past at the same time and I was in everyones most traumatic experiences
03:26:26 <monqy> but sometimes the subject wasnt there in their experience i was experiencing
03:26:32 <monqy> and they turned up dead
03:26:40 <monqy> also when time stabilized i could hover when i jumped
03:27:03 <monqy> i vaguely remember some more details but not enough to describe them :(
03:28:07 <elliott> that dream sounds upsetting : (
03:28:38 <monqy> another dream: what i remembered of it:
03:28:56 <monqy> a dude puts this box on my head as punishment for doing something idk and it made everything green and dumb and I could see mathematicians in the sky
03:29:15 <monqy> it turns out he was a gang member and didn't want me disbanding his gang and he was using me or something but it turns out i was actually just using him
03:29:23 <monqy> and I took the box off after a while and he was so upset
03:29:49 <monqy> same thing here with the vague details :( i wish i had remembered more
03:31:15 <monqy> another dream: about a video game where a brother & sister with huge anime hair are deep in the woods at some friends house and they are going to go shopping and to the library but they get attacked by a swarm of really big bug things, and also the friends' mother is trying to sautee drugs for some reason
03:31:24 <monqy> the bugs were really big but I forget how big they were, and they grew even bigger
03:31:43 <monqy> it took me a lot of tries and I forget how I beat it but I think I kept the brother and sister inside the house but they ended up getting high oops
03:31:54 <elliott> i think i have played this game
03:32:01 <monqy> and hen they went to the library there was a big crowd and they saw someone who looked like their mother but with purple hair
03:32:06 <monqy> they both tried hitting on her but they were high
03:32:14 <monqy> i dont remember much else
03:33:21 <monqy> It had something to do with old tv. I was with relatives but somehow one of my friends was also there.
03:34:12 <monqy> some things happened but idk exactly what they were because in the dream I remember thinking they were real events but happened but I went to see them happen again later so idk if they were just acting or what
03:35:02 <monqy> yeah I describe it more later but i dont remember much of the details
03:35:11 <monqy> anyway I went to see these things but I was really tired in this dream so it was sort of hard. I remember thifrst thing was obama talking to some people and it might have been a standup comedy routine? He was cracking jokes but only a few were actually funny but they made it worth it
03:35:38 <monqy> in the second thing the only thing I remember was this little girl spins onto the stage and there's a really stupid joke but i couldn't stop laughing it's an amazing joke (i dont remember it)
03:35:47 <monqy> 2 other things happens and my friend catches me and takes me to a cafe thingy
03:36:19 <monqy> I forget what happened but at one point I went through the events with friend and they seemed real that time too. anyway after that cafe happened
03:36:32 <ion> shachaf: Where?
03:36:49 <monqy> friend orders me a drink and insists I have one too but I don't want one and he gets into a bit of a spat with the storekeep or w/e since he's broke and keeps stopping by and never paying
03:36:59 <monqy> i kept staring at the menu and didn't want anything on it
03:37:20 <monqy> but i got this instinctive feeling it was time for watching i love lucy on the tv which was apparently an extended-family tradition in dreamland
03:37:26 <ion> shachaf: Probably some asshole.
03:37:33 <shachaf> ion: he's "much cooler than u"
03:37:58 <monqy> so i ran really fast towards the i love lucy house and my cousins were running there too and i started giggling but i covered my mouth and i jumped and flew into the house and sorta crashlanded onto one of its walls
03:38:00 <shachaf> You should add a digit after your nick.
03:38:17 <monqy> not really a crash i grabbed something on the wall and let myself down and we all watched i love lucy together
03:38:35 <ion> shachaf: no u
03:38:36 <shachaf> is monqy still talking about his dreams
03:39:24 <monqy> 1) i was at an ice cream place but they only had really dumb awful flavors. the only ones i could remember are "meat" and "lobster"
03:39:46 <monqy> 2) in this dream world people's memories are stored in their teeth and the tooth serves as a protection for the memory so if your teeth go bad you start forgetting stuff
03:40:02 <monqy> and i think there was some horror about losing teeth in that dream, like in the space dentist dream.
03:40:20 <shachaf> monqy: did they have any vegetarian flavours
03:40:36 <ion> soy banana
03:40:47 <ion> The vegetarian version of banana
03:41:05 <shachaf> i had a dream about an evil dentist who would extract people's memories
03:41:09 <shachaf> wait no that was a computer game
03:41:49 <ion> One of the characters in Psychonauts was a bit like that…ish.
03:42:12 <kmc> U+2F75D 'BULLET WITH BUTTERFLY WINGS'
03:42:34 <monqy> dream: first part: took place sometime after i was done with elementary school but i was visiting it anyway. a friend I had who was all about military stuff irl was instead obsessed with synths and told me all about them.
03:42:55 <elliott> monqy: imo synths > military?
03:43:01 <elliott> sounds like your friend got... Dream Improved
03:43:17 <kmc> monqy: have you ever seen this film eXistenZ
03:43:36 <monqy> the ending to the first part was something like they took a field trip to some shopping plaza but they just sorta gathered in the road/parkingspace and did stuff and i was like ugh this is dumb and wandered off but then i saw my dad come pick me up and i couldn't decide if i wanted to meet with him quickly and vanish or make it look like i was w/ the elementary school students
03:43:46 <monqy> and i was like spinning or something?? i couldn't stop spinning so that settled that
03:43:55 <monqy> in my dream i decided this was the worst possible outcome but it worked out
03:44:04 <monqy> then we went to the shopping store, whcih is the setting for part 2
03:44:20 <shachaf> ion: Have you figured out Zipper?
03:44:42 <monqy> before we got a cart there was a coin jar and my dad grabbed a bunch of coins from it and gave a few to me and went through the store tossing coins at alll the products on the shopping list instead of getting a cart and picking them up??
03:44:46 <monqy> and the coins were weird too
03:44:59 <monqy> nickels, quarters, and Bronze Dollars (like silver dollars but a bit bigger and also bronze)
03:45:08 <ion> shachaf: I haven’t looked at it yet, but i’ve been meaning to.
03:45:33 <shachaf> > zipper ("hello","world") % down _1 % fromWithin traverse % focus .~ 'J' % rightmost % focus .~ 'y' % rezip
03:45:47 <monqy> i wandered off to find if there was anything i wanted and came across these ridiculous huge frozen lamb sandwiches that were really high up but i could read the labels and see the pictures
03:45:51 <monqy> [nb i have never tried lamb]
03:45:54 <shachaf> elliott: Did I mention that we should have Functor => Apply => Applicative?
03:46:02 <kmc> are you making this all up on the spot
03:46:36 <elliott> don't doubt monqy's dreams
03:46:42 <kmc> obviously 'BUTTERFLY WINGS' should actually be a combining character
03:47:52 <shachaf> @ty Control.Lens.Internal.bazaar
03:47:54 <lambdabot> Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> Control.Lens.Internal.Bazaar a b t -> f t
03:48:23 <zzo38> In my computer I wrote about various dreams, both my own and others.
03:48:37 <monqy> kmc: no these are real dreams i've had in the past and wrote down
03:48:51 <monqy> in another irc channel and i'm grepping my logs
03:48:55 <monqy> anyway uhh where was i
03:48:59 <shachaf> did you ever dream that you were dreaming
03:49:04 <shachaf> and then you woke up and it turned out that you weren't
03:49:23 <Sgeo> I've dreampt that I've woken up. Don't think there are actually dreams within dreams
03:49:28 <zzo38> shachaf: I also sometimes dream that I am dreaming, sometimes many levels.
03:49:37 <elliott> monqy: what does other irc channel have that this one doesn't that it gets all your dreams :{
03:49:40 <elliott> apart from probably being better
03:49:45 <elliott> because #esoteric is p. bad
03:50:15 <monqy> it's p. bad too but it has less of a focus and less people who are having conversations and stuff like that, and also im just neglectful
03:50:29 <shachaf> elliott: q: you know whats worse than #esoteric?
03:50:40 <monqy> there were a few varieties of lamb sandwiches that I can remember: "red jalapeno", "pickle supreme" (the pickle on the sandwich on the cover picture looked like a cross between a green anchovie/sardine/thing and a slimy green bacon strip), and "ham"
03:51:15 <monqy> anyway this family started crowding around and admiring the lamb sandwiches and was talking to a store attendant about how good they looked and the store attendand recommended them and i tried to escape but the more i tried the more they crowded so idk how i got out
03:51:21 <shachaf> are these sandwiches made by lambs or made of lambs
03:51:38 <monqy> come to think of it, i don't know
03:52:08 <monqy> ive never had lamb and they looked ridiculous so i wanted to try one but for some reason i didn't want to cary it and my dad had the cart?? so i got him over to the sandwiches
03:52:30 <monqy> somehow i got one down even tho they're really high up and you're supposed to get a store attendant to do it
03:52:47 <monqy> it turns out the lamb sandwiches were improperly taken care of and turned to sludge so we went to the service desk line
03:53:11 <elliott> <monqy> it's p. bad too but it has less of a focus and less people who are having conversations and stuff like that, and also im just neglectful
03:53:16 <elliott> how can any channel have less of a focus than #esoteric tho
03:53:22 <monqy> the service desk had this board behind it that showed the store's rating on various policies. there were 3 possible values for each rating, a lightbulb (best), a circled question mark (middle), and a frowny face (worst)
03:53:28 <HackEgo> elliott: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:54:24 <monqy> this store got lightbulbs on all categories!!! the only cateogory i can remember is employree treatment, with frowny face representing "hard labor", question mark was "ethnic minorities labor", and lightbulb was "hobo labor"
03:54:54 <monqy> there was a cartoon next to it about how the store was nice to everyone not just the "master race" so i guess this store or the rest of the world had a racist thing going on???
03:55:51 <monqy> once it was our turn at the help desk my dad freaked out and ran off and i was a bit confused and then the lights shut off and red lights happened and there were alarms and police/security guards started running around shouting "guns!!!"
03:56:09 <monqy> so i ran off too and all of the whiteboards that previously had product info now had sloppy pictures of guns on them and the word "guns!!!"
03:56:29 <monqy> they were gathered around at the lamb sandwiches and apparently my dad dropped his 2 pistols (????) there??, and they were gone
03:56:38 <elliott> does your family have guns
03:56:40 <elliott> everyone has guns in america : /
03:56:51 <shachaf> elliott: i dont have guns : (
03:56:55 <monqy> the lights went back to normal and everyone regrouped at like this pillar thing for a motivational speech
03:57:10 <monqy> i forget exactly what the speech was but i was thinking "man it'd be dumb and predictable if this guy had the guns"
03:57:19 <monqy> then he had the guns and shot both me and my dad at the same time and i fainted
03:57:38 <monqy> when i came to it turns out they were just bb guns and the bb had embedded itself in my muscle and it hurt
03:58:13 <monqy> my dad advised removing it with scissors but watching out for this one vein that has to be connected properly or else you'll have improper flow of water or something and can survive for a few hours just feeling but then die and this has ended a lot of lives
03:58:25 <monqy> i forgot what happened next and then i woke up and it still hurt for a bit the end
03:59:51 <monqy> in another dream i dreamed of accidentally putting raw egg in my fruit juice
04:00:08 <monqy> and freaking out because i always thought putting raw egg in fruit juice was silly and for old people
04:00:14 <monqy> and now i could get diseased from the raw egg
04:00:19 <monqy> and my mother suggested cooking the fruit juice
04:00:45 <kmc> you know what's annoying? when i claim some phrase is ambiguous and other people try to refute my claim by telling me their personal interpretation of what it means
04:01:04 <monqy> this doesn't happen to me
04:01:19 <kmc> well maybe try harder
04:01:25 <monqy> whenever their personal interpretation happens it's a clarification not a refutation ime.......
04:02:15 <monqy> another dream: another "me driving badly" dream :(
04:02:32 <monqy> the "twist" here is i had to deliver something to family-friend house and i kept hitting other cars and swerving off the road
04:02:35 <monqy> and i had to pick the car up
04:02:38 <monqy> place it back on the road
04:02:44 <monqy> but at one point i lost the car
04:02:46 <monqy> but then i found it again
04:02:52 <monqy> at one point i just ramped off of another car
04:02:59 <monqy> and i was like "uuuuuuuugh" because me driving badly dream
04:03:31 <kmc> no i don't mean the person who originally used the phrase, just random people who have an opinion as to what it means and clearly their opinion is the only correct one
04:03:41 <shachaf> kmc: of what your claim means or of what the phrase means
04:03:43 <kmc> never mind though
04:03:48 <kmc> this whine is too specific
04:03:51 <kmc> to be appreciated by others
04:03:56 <kmc> we apologize for the inconvenience
04:04:04 <shachaf> You should give a specific example of a phrase.
04:04:24 <monqy> oh here's the dream with the elephant herd:
04:04:25 <shachaf> And also a person we can h8 for it.
04:04:57 <monqy> by the time I woke up I couldn't remember enough of my dream to give an interesting account of it. I guess in one part I was in a team trying to enter some competition and there were a bunch of challenges we had to pass
04:05:00 <elliott> <monqy> another dream: another "me driving badly" dream :(
04:05:05 <elliott> the last time it was someone else driving badly tho?
04:05:18 <monqy> ive never driven a car i dont have a license
04:05:41 <monqy> for each challenge we could only have 2 team members trying it at a time and one of the challenges was killing a herd of elephants
04:05:59 <monqy> i guesss that's all i remembered
04:07:07 <monqy> "In the past few days I've had 2 dreams where I played 2 weird video games that don't actually exist in real life :'("
04:07:25 <monqy> first video game dream: the game was something like you're visiting your relatives on a remote island and you;re there for 12 days
04:07:51 <monqy> the game can end in a bunch of different ways depending on the stuff you do
04:08:12 <monqy> I think I got one of the dumb bad endings and one of the "ok you played the game normally" endings
04:08:25 <monqy> for the bad ending i went to my bed and slept through all 12 days
04:08:32 <monqy> I remember a few things about the game though
04:08:47 <monqy> like on the first night your grandmother dies and she's found in the bathroom with 3 blue candles lodged in her back
04:09:10 <monqy> and another thing is if you kill your relatives you can collect your souls and give them to these clam soul receptacle things so they can be reborn and you can watch their dreams
04:09:30 <elliott> were any of their dreams good
04:09:46 <monqy> like i tried it with one of them and their dreams was this person that's just floating and he's all black and lumpy and instead of a face has a huge cavity covered up by a layer of weird stuff--think baleen hair
04:10:09 <kmc> i think monqy remembers more things about his dreams than i remember about my entire life to date
04:10:36 <monqy> next game dream: the part I remember is you're this girl and you have to get home but there's an explosion that happens on the way and for most endings of the game you have to get burned to a crisp but
04:10:51 <monqy> i was going for the secret ending where you have to duck into a farm
04:11:14 <monqy> and walk through the farm and there's a shack in the farm and you go in the shack and there's this guy who comes up to you on a tractor and I said hi and he made a really scary face so I ran away
04:11:17 <shachaf> monqy: did you play Myst III: Exile
04:11:49 <elliott> <kmc> i think monqy remembers more things about his dreams than i remember about my entire life to date
04:11:53 <monqy> and there was an angry cat but there was also a nice cat so I got the nice cat to distract the angry cat and ran through and passed by a shy cat and it led into the girl's room and you prop yourself up on your disembodied legs which were waiting for you at the foot of your bed
04:11:55 <elliott> well he isn't remembering them off the top of his head
04:12:39 <monqy> thats it for that dream
04:13:32 <monqy> hoo boy her'es a "bad dream"
04:14:16 <monqy> the bad dream involved me drinking some beer that tasted like tomato juice and until I was about half way done with it it wasn't so bad apart from the taste but then at half way done it hit really hard and I got a splitting headache and felt really woozy
04:14:20 <monqy> I don't remember why I drank it
04:14:29 <monqy> [nb ive never drank anything ever irl so idk what its like]
04:14:41 <monqy> it was lkike before school too
04:14:45 <shachaf> [don't you die of thirst??]
04:14:54 <monqy> its on my tombstone
04:15:45 <monqy> in another part i needed batteries for some reason and i don't know why but i decided to go to the nearby elementary school for them but as i was approaching i noticed they were sounding an alarm so i thought to myself "wow it must be the stranger alarm how convenient i'll be friendly and ask for some batteries"
04:16:15 <monqy> so i go up to one of the playground supervisors and say hi stranger is the alarm a stranger alarm and she says no so i figure it'd be a bad idea to ask for batteries and i leave
04:16:23 <monqy> then she says have a nice day and i realize she's my grandmother
04:16:48 <monqy> also in this dream were giant bugs and they were my friends
04:16:55 <monqy> huge centipedes crawling everywhere &c
04:18:11 <monqy> dream: I was playing some new king's quest game and I got to a part where there was this wizard and he's like HOW MUCH DO YOU WANT TO ACHIEVE YOUR GOALS and there were four balloons each with choices in them to the north south east and west
04:18:17 <monqy> i didn't see east or west but south was like
04:18:23 <monqy> A LITTLE BIT I GUESS
04:18:29 <monqy> I REALLY WANT TO ACHIEVE MY GOALS
04:18:35 <monqy> and north was just ADOLESENCE
04:18:45 <shachaf> are you talking about bridge
04:18:52 <shachaf> "i used to play bridge in 4th grade"
04:19:02 <monqy> and eventually i figured out that this was the difficulty selection screen and to get hard mode you had to select the hardest difficulty, which was the uppermost, so i selected ADOLESENCE
04:19:11 <elliott> monqy: have you ever played a king's quest game. i played a few old ones but i was really bad at them
04:19:18 <elliott> imo: lucasarts games: better?
04:19:20 <monqy> elliott: i've watched some footage
04:19:27 <monqy> elliott: amazing games
04:19:29 <shachaf> elliott: Should I play _Grim Fandango_?
04:19:35 <elliott> shachaf: you haven't already?
04:19:35 <shachaf> elliott: I haven't played it.
04:19:47 <elliott> even monqy has played grim fandango. probably.
04:20:01 <shachaf> but i played _Monkey Island 4_! :'(
04:20:08 <shachaf> "basically the same thing"
04:20:13 <monqy> at one part in this thing i went into a cold area and the narrator was like THIS IS COLD so i left and tried getting to a hot area and even once i was already there i shivered and turned into bones
04:20:16 <elliott> n.b. the interface is awful
04:20:23 <elliott> slightly worse than MI4's iirc
04:20:30 <elliott> nothing like a point and click game where you can neither point nor click
04:20:34 <shachaf> how can you be worse than mi4
04:21:05 <monqy> another part of the dream: a few other people and i were at a water park but it only had one ride except it wasn't really a ride it was more of a horrible horrible amazing obstacle course
04:21:34 <shachaf> monqy: did you play "the neverhood"?
04:21:42 <monqy> no but i've heard of it
04:21:59 <shachaf> "no i've neverhood of it" - not monqy
04:22:05 <monqy> i remember one part where there are sort of platform things over water and you had to leap across them except they're freely rotating on their axles so they'll spin when you hit them and some sections of them are this blue thing with an arrow and if you touch the arrow you;ll get sent back to the start
04:22:22 <monqy> and another part is just a water slide except all the water is actually blue dye and it dyes your skin blue
04:23:45 <shachaf> elliott: are you a grim "fan" dango
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04:25:01 <monqy> dream: what I remember: there's a virtual reality game and I'm playing it with an unkown friend and it's in black and white
04:25:06 <monqy> at one point I think there's a big ball
04:25:10 <monqy> and near the end there's a big bear
04:25:28 <monqy> and I feel like being ajerk and moving in such a way as to attract the bear's atention and then get it to run towards my friend
04:25:33 <monqy> and then we run away from the bear together
04:26:08 <elliott> <monqy> i remember one part where there are sort of platform things over water and you had to leap across them except they're freely rotating on their axles so they'll spin when you hit them and some sections of them are this blue thing with an arrow and if you touch the arrow you;ll get sent back to the start
04:26:12 <elliott> this sounds sort of like this total wipeout thing
04:26:16 <shachaf> monqy: can i have your dreams :¸(
04:26:26 <shachaf> my dreams are all about elliott. boring.
04:29:46 <shachaf> elliott: http://www.danielamos.com/
04:31:14 <monqy> dream: I'm in this wacky town in the middle of nowhere staying at the house of some english teacher I don't know is she's a relative or if I'm in one of her classes in bizarro world or I'm coauthoring a dreambook with her or what
04:31:51 <monqy> for some reason I'm looking through the tests/homework she gives and the short stories she writes and the short stories contain the answers to all the homework/tests but in really stupid ways
04:32:45 <monqy> apparently someone made a full show out of a joke dub of the Kaiji anime and she made her class watch it and she wrote a fanfic about it and gave a homework/test/whatever problem about her fanfic
04:32:54 <monqy> and she wrote another fanfic in which Kaiji answers her problem about him
04:32:57 <monqy> and it's just the stupidest thing
04:33:13 <monqy> then I noticed everyone in her neighbourhood was actually from her short stories
04:33:19 <monqy> but then they noticed I noticed and tried to drown me
04:33:42 <elliott> i think this may be the best dream yet
04:33:59 <monqy> but I could breathe underwater and I found a manhole and went into the sewers but the sewers were glittery black caves with rainbow chalk grrowing out of the walls and if you crushed the chalk in your hands and pit them on the walls and pulled away you could make handholds and platforms and stuff
04:34:20 <monqy> there was more water and I had to run away from it etc etc and when I got out of the cave I was like at this award ceremony thing and I fell onto the stage
04:34:43 <monqy> where the english teacher and her neighbors and I were being awarded the prestigious award for Best Yaoi but nobody knew what yaoi meant
04:34:52 <monqy> and then we lead the Yaoi Parade through town and oh god it was so stupid
04:34:56 <monqy> and then i woke up
04:35:32 <monqy> god its really weird to read these old dreams and i forget parts of them and then i read them and remember them
04:36:48 <monqy> and thats the earliest dream i have logged in my logs from that channel
04:51:51 <shachaf> Can you believe luite was in SF and didn't get a proper burrito the entire time?
05:01:17 <zzo38> How can computer simulation of swell shades?
05:04:28 <shachaf> monqy: have you ever heard the neverhood music
05:05:13 <shachaf> @google potatoes tomatoes gravy and peas
05:05:15 <lambdabot> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6R5x1VP2b4
05:05:27 <shachaf> monqy: if your dreams were music, they would be the neverhood music
05:21:00 <zzo38> The "partikkel" command of Csound is very complicated, with forty parameters.
06:05:10 <zzo38> Swell shades make the sound not only quiet but also sounds more distant. How can such thing simulation by computer?
06:05:55 <Sgeo> Is there a way to set up a quota on amount of time a process can run on Linux?
06:06:01 <Sgeo> And if so, is there a way to see this quota?
06:06:56 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't know, but maybe you can make some program to run the other program and then stop it afterward, if you need that but it does not have another command to do that.
06:07:15 <Sgeo> zzo38, I don't want to do it. I want to know if I'm laboring under it.
06:07:30 <Sgeo> And it would be a quota for any process.
06:07:56 <Bike> ask the sysadmin?
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06:09:38 <Sgeo> Not even sure whether or not the sysadmin is the project manager or just someone the project manager knows.
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06:14:17 <Sgeo> Found my answer.
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06:32:44 <Sgeo> I need to stop writing programs in such a way that only I am able to configure the environment properly.
06:33:13 <Sgeo> I guess that's more of a documentation issue.
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06:52:53 <zzo38> monqy: Have you watched Kaiji anime? I have watched the first two seasons, with subtitles. We put them in a CD and then played it on the DVD player.
06:53:17 <monqy> the first two seasons
06:53:20 <monqy> are there more yet
06:53:38 <zzo38> I don't know if there is any more yet.
06:54:35 <zzo38> But I think it is very good. I also watched Death Note, although not even finish to watch first season we do have the CDs of the first and second season, and that is good too. Death Note is dubbed though, rather than subtitles.
06:55:25 <zzo38> I also have all the Akagi manga up to 25
06:56:06 <monqy> I don't know majong; would it make sense without this knowledge
06:56:08 <shachaf> elliott: "i recommend not logreading the past half hour or so of #haskell"
06:56:38 <zzo38> monqy: Maybe a little bit, I suppose, although knowing mahjong would help to understand more.
07:06:41 <Sgeo> I thought Death Note had both dubs and subs
07:08:36 <zzo38> Sgeo: Well, I don't know, the one I have for Death Note is dub, and the one for Kaiji is sub. These are what my brother found, they are in Xvid format so they will be recorded into a CD and then played in the combination VCR/DVD we have, which can also play DivX (on CD or DVD; apparently CD is faster though)
07:09:34 <Sgeo> Maybe I should try to learn how to play Majong
07:09:43 <Sgeo> Or maybe try actually playing Backgammon at some point.
07:09:52 <zzo38> Also it seems many more Xvid/DivX files can fit in one CD than storing standard DVD-video on DVD.
07:11:02 <zzo38> Sgeo: There are many different rules for mahjong; a popular mahjong rules is Japanese mahjong, which is also the one played in Akagi, and is popular throughout the world even in places where they play other forms of mahjong too.
07:19:08 <zzo38> Fukumoto (the person who wrote Akagi and Kaiji) mades terrible drawing (he admits this) but the story is very good, and he invented some games too, such as Washizu Mahjong, Restricted Rock-Paper-Scissors, E-card, and other games that were used in his manga.
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08:18:48 <elliott> ais523: what's nethack-tas doingon termcast.org
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08:38:30 <shachaf> kmc: Did you know about annotate-output?
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08:48:45 * Sgeo vaguely wonders how to cheat ulimit -t
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08:53:42 <Vorpal> huh what... I have Eclipse with the android SDK on two computers. I started an upgrade of both them within a minute from each other. Same packages to upgrade on both. Yet one finished in less than a minute and the other one (on the faster computer) is still going half an hour later, at 30% currently
08:53:52 <Vorpal> how does that make any sense?
08:54:49 <Sgeo> Network issues?
08:55:35 <Vorpal> Sgeo, they are both on the same switch
08:56:06 <Sgeo> Abrupt network issues of the server hosting the updates?
08:56:42 <Vorpal> possibly but the updates ran overlapping each other by at least half a minute, so surely there shouldn't be issues there
08:56:53 <Vorpal> Sgeo, anyway I started the computer that is still going *first*
08:57:39 <Vorpal> Sgeo, one difference is that it runs windows and the fast one runs linux
08:57:49 <Vorpal> but why would that affect HTTP performance?
08:58:36 <shachaf> elliott: You know the thing where #haskell gets overrun by people who don't know what they're talking about?
08:58:47 <shachaf> And then they start giving advice to each other?
08:58:54 <shachaf> And you're just outnumbered.
09:05:19 <zzo38> Do you know at what age basketball players retire?
09:06:27 <zzo38> I have already won every game so far this season, but I still wish to optimize my strategy.
09:17:31 <zzo38> Some Csound commands says it will break the speakers. It is possible to design speakers to filter out the sound which breaks it?
09:22:50 <zzo38> shachaf: At least to me, there is no need to do anything, as far as I can tell.
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09:44:05 <FreeFull> Also, Linux and Windows would have a different TCP stack, but I don't think Windows's TCP stack would be that bad..
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10:05:48 <Vorpal> <FreeFull> Vorpal: Different mirrors? <-- maybe
10:05:59 <Vorpal> FreeFull, and yeah the TCP stack shouldn't differ that much
10:06:12 <Vorpal> FreeFull, btw it still hasn't finished XD
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10:10:10 <fizzie> I just shook a laser printer cartridge, and now the print quality is back to pretty much as good as this printer gets. (The sad thing is that it took like six months before I was motivated enough to do that.)
10:13:05 <fizzie> It's a bit weird that a new toner cartridge to this old cheap-when-it-was-bought b/w laser is about double the price of a brand new color laser. (160 eur, vs. 80 eur.)
10:13:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that a third party cartridge?
10:13:56 <fizzie> No, it's the official one.
10:14:08 <zzo38> What model of printer is it?
10:14:10 <Vorpal> get third party ones? They are most likely way cheaper
10:14:56 <fizzie> It's still half full according to the sensors, it apparently just needed a good shake. It *has* been like five years in use already; we don't really use the printer much.
10:15:49 <fizzie> According to the statistics page a total of thousand pages has been printed on it, and I guess it's closer to seven years already when we got it.
10:15:54 <fizzie> (And it's a Lexmark E232.)
10:22:01 <zzo38> I know at FreeGeek we have a Lexmark laser printer; I am unsure the model number, but I know they don't always use the newest equipment there (they just use whatever is available); it supports PCL, HTML, PDF, and PostScript, although I have only used the PCL. I think it is the only Lexmark laser printer which I have used, though.
10:22:47 <fizzie> This one is in the cheaper end of the range, so it only speaks PCL.
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10:25:36 <zzo38> That seem good enough. I don't know why the printer would need to support the other formats, since you should be able to convert whatever you have to PCL.
10:27:38 <zzo38> For example you can use Ghostscript if you need to run any PostScript files, or you can use programs such as "dvilj" and so on to convert DVI to PCL. Or, you can use the system printer drivers.
10:28:01 <zzo38> In addition, if you just have plain text, PCL compatible printers should print those too.
10:28:38 <fizzie> Network printers sometimes support all kinds of curious stuff. Like this one thing a friend had, you could FTP into it and upload a postscript file, then it would print it out. We even used that to make printing from Netscape in Linux work (this was... quite a while ago); the printing command was just a script that did a FTP upload. Was easier than fiddling with LPRng network stuff.
10:28:44 <zzo38> ESC/P compatible printers will also print plain text, so if you have that you can use that too.
10:29:55 <zzo38> One feature of network printers I have used in school was to put a password on the print job.
10:30:44 <zzo38> Therefore, I did not get my printout mixed up with everyone else who was printing at the same time.
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12:13:36 <shachaf> ion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brouwer%E2%80%93Heyting%E2%80%93Kolmogorov_interpretation
12:14:45 <shachaf> If you look at that, you see that both ∃ and ∀ are defined in terms of Φ, which is a sort of function.
12:14:49 <shachaf> (Or more of a metafunction?)
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12:47:21 <Vorpal> FireFly, you know what? I left the computer for a few hours, Eclipse is now on 35%. Lol what...
12:50:02 <fizzie> It's an asymptotical thing.
12:50:09 <fizzie> It will be 100% at the end of time itself.
12:50:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, going slower and slower? yeah probably
12:50:39 <fizzie> That's, like, better than dialup.
12:51:04 <Vorpal> btw, it is not the computer itself, since I can do other stuff just fine on it, tested watching a youtube video in 1080p, worked just fine
12:51:48 <fizzie> They might have some DNS round-robin or something on mirrors, and your box won the first price on the "who gets the slowest one" competition.
12:51:55 <shachaf> elliott: So why does one direction of http://www.vex.net/~trebla/weblog/any-all-some.html only work with a condition?
12:52:49 <fizzie> I should probably do something about this by-default-in-Swedish Google at some point.
12:56:13 <fizzie> That's not "doing something", that's "not doing something".
12:56:53 <shachaf> echo 0.0.0.0 www.google.com >> /etc/hosts ?
12:57:11 <shachaf> fizzie: A useful answer: http://www.google.com/ncr
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14:59:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: whois: not found
14:59:55 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
15:00:10 <fizzie> No whois server is known for this kind of object.
15:00:25 <fizzie> Somehow "this kind of object" sounds a bit disparaging.
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15:12:55 <elliott> so apparently john mcafee might have killed a dude?? surely the kind of people who write virus scanners are more mild-mannered than that
15:14:27 <olsner> I think they are on average as mild-mannered as the average person
15:14:31 <atriq> That's what they said about Clark Kent
15:15:08 <fizzie> Virus scanner developers are about as dangerous as file system developers.
15:15:43 <fizzie> (The whole sex-drugs aspect of the McAfee thing is a bit novel, though.)
15:16:21 <olsner> I wonder how many file system developers there are in the world, and how many killings you can expect in a group of that size
15:17:14 <fizzie> I don't know, but I'd go across the street just in case, if I saw a group of file system developers walking towards me on my side of it.
15:17:26 <fizzie> I... suppose you can recognize them somehow?
15:17:47 <fizzie> They have B-tree tattoos and so on, right?
15:18:04 <olsner> maybe they all have namesys t-shirts?
15:20:55 <fizzie> "I killed my wife and all I got was this lousy t-shirt" t-shirts?
15:22:26 <fizzie> Incidentally, I got my other Stripe shirt, finally; some two weeks later than kmc. (The drawbacks of living Up Here.)
15:23:48 <elliott> does Finland really count as a "here"
15:27:59 <olsner> it would for people in Finland, but I'm pretty sure it's uninhabited
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15:39:43 <olsner> elliott: you will be excited to learn that my operating system can receive keyboard input now
15:39:58 <olsner> (i.e. it has an interrupt handler that prints the received scan code then continues whatever it was doing)
15:41:08 <olsner> yeah, it's totally amazing
15:41:48 * FreeFull considers writing an OS for some ARM board
15:42:21 <elliott> olsner: did you ever write your own assembler or whatever
15:42:54 <olsner> I also saved like 500 bytes by not having the entire idt as constant data but generate it on startup instead
15:50:44 <FreeFull> Why use your own assembler when there is fasm
15:50:58 <FreeFull> Just write a frontend for it for your OS
15:51:11 <elliott> I've never used it, but I'm sure it sucks
15:51:31 <FreeFull> The only problem with it is that it only runs on x86-type machines
15:51:54 <FreeFull> So the version with the ARM target doesn't run on ARM
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15:59:56 <Phantom_Hoover> because if Vorpal says gas is best again i will have to leave and then go to sweden and hit him
16:01:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I have no specific opinion on which assembler software is best. The only thing I have an opinion on is which syntax is best
16:02:09 <Vorpal> olsner, well, I'm more used to reading that when it comes to x86
16:03:10 <Vorpal> olsner, other than x86(|-64) I mostly wrote PIC and AVR assembly. And I just used whatever the toolchain provided. Don't even remmeber PIC assembly any longer, was so many years ago
16:04:28 <Vorpal> olsner, frankly I can quite easily adapt to whatever the toolchain uses, it is just a question of reading the docs. Assembly in general is not exactly complicated. There isn't much syntax to learn (especially on PIC or AVR)
16:04:47 <Vorpal> and the rest is just reading data sheets for the ISA to figure out the instructions
16:04:58 <Vorpal> (which can be a daunting task on x86)
16:05:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, x86 effective addressing is pretty unintuitive, actually
16:05:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, x86 is pretty unintuitive
16:05:34 <Phantom_Hoover> and at&t syntax is an effective way of making it as unintuitive as possible
16:05:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't write much asm on x86, I mostly read it, as output from gcc -S or similar
16:06:29 <Vorpal> I code as little as possible in assembly. There are compilers for a reason.
16:06:41 <fizzie> People who write "mov [eax+4*ebx], cl" are always asking "why doesn't [eax+5*ebx] work?", though.
16:07:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, that would be because 5 is not a power of 2 surely?
16:07:13 <copumpkin> the syntax should show it as a shift then!
16:07:41 <Vorpal> I forgot exactly how large a shift can be encoded though
16:07:53 <Phantom_Hoover> well tbh nasm does automatically convert [5*eax] to [eax+4*eax] which is questionable
16:08:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you are kind of out luck with [6*eax] though, presumably?
16:13:26 <fizzie> 1, 2, 4 and 8 are legal scales.
16:17:28 <Vorpal> hm, why are volume controls so screwy for most sound card & head phone/ear bud/speaker combos. A reasonable level is usually either near max or near min...
16:17:36 <Vorpal> or am I just being unlucky?
16:17:47 <shachaf> kmc: Did you see dne :: forall a. (forall m. Monad m => (a -> m Void) -> m Void) -> a; dne e = case e Left of Left x -> x; Right _ -> undefined
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16:19:38 <shachaf> kmc: Rather, dne :: forall a. (forall m. Monad m => (a -> m Void) -> m Void) -> a; dne e = case e Left of Left x -> x; Right u -> absurd u
16:19:46 <shachaf> "sorry about the undefined"
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16:27:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: It certainly happens to me too; pairing the USB sound dongle I have with the headphones (64Ω nominal impedance, shouldn't be *that* strange) means sensible sound levels at about two or three of the steps right above the minimum "hardware" volume level; and those are already pretty loud. (Then again, for the laptop's headphone hole, the levels are quite reasonable.)
16:28:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, I find that the built in speakers in my laptop require near max level for anything to happen
16:28:47 <Vorpal> and any headphones or earbuds that I use require near minimum
16:29:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, I had to set up a -35 dB gain to the output stage of my SB Live DSP to get a reasonable master volume control on it
16:29:19 <Vorpal> which is pretty absurd
16:29:24 <shachaf> Ah, let lem1 :: (forall m. Monad m => (a -> m w)) -> (forall m. Monad m => (a -> m Void) -> m w) -> w; lem1 pos neg = case neg Left of Right y -> y; Left y -> runIdentity (pos y)
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16:33:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, for the USB dongle sensible volume levels (as per alsamixer) for the "Speaker" output -- the only control it has -- are about the steps 3/100 .. 6/100 (reportedly -27 .. -25 dB gain); anything below is completely silent, anything above is just too loud.
16:36:02 <fizzie> (Also, it has an "Auto Gain Control" toggle that's a *playback* control, according to alsamixer. I don't know what it does, but I would've assumed it's something to do with the mic capture instead.)
16:38:17 <fizzie> (Toggling it does absolutely nothing w.r.t. playback.)
16:43:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have gain controls for virtually everything
16:44:37 <fizzie> Speaking of headphones, my wife's father, the high-fidelity guy, bought Sennheiser HD 800's recently; they came with this "certificate" paper thing that had the measured frequency response curves for that particular individual pair. (Then again, their price here is a thousand euros, so I suppose there's enough of a profit margin there to do small things like that.)
16:44:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, if you have a card based on emu10k1 I would suggest you swap the front and back channels, the front channel uses an AC97 codec for the DAC, the back one uses some I2S thingy instead
16:45:15 <Vorpal> mine only came with a general frequency response curve for the model
16:45:35 <fizzie> So did mine. I think; I've lost the box and any things like that.
16:46:26 <fizzie> Sennhaiser had cleverly stopped the curves at something like 50 Hz in the low end, 12.5 kHz in the high end, so it looked impressively flat.
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17:25:23 <fizzie> There's a really tiny embedded Google Maps box on this page; the [Map] [Satellite] [Terrain] buttons -- normally [Kartta] [Sateelliitti] [Maasto] in Finnish -- are shown as [Kartta] ([Ia] or [la]) [Maas].
17:25:36 <fizzie> The last one is a reasonable truncation, but I don't know where that middle one is coming.
17:26:16 <fizzie> Copy-paste reveals it's a [la] button.
17:36:53 <fizzie> I also have a thing where NetworkManager goes to a "use 100% CPU" mode very often.
17:38:51 <fizzie> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/1009879 -- that thing except not always with Transmission.
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17:43:52 <atriq> The documentation for the Tumblr API is somewhat lacking in places
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18:14:57 <kmc> shachaf: what is annotate-output?
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18:41:59 <impomatic> Has anyone got any Forth books lurking around that are no longer required? :-)
18:42:32 <atriq> I've got one on Lotus
18:42:35 <atriq> That's kind of like Forth
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19:03:44 <Vorpal> impomatic, there are some pretty good tutorials on line if you want that
19:17:37 <impomatic> Vorpal: it's stuff to collect / review / get ideas from that I'm looking for.
19:29:18 <Vorpal> impomatic, don't have any such
19:29:43 <Vorpal> impomatic, but Forth is not exactly a language that is hard to master I would say
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19:34:21 <Vorpal> god damn, chrome's unified search/url bar is annoying. Can't access dsldevice.lan, works fine in firefox
19:34:34 <Vorpal> shame, since chrome is otherwise an awesome browser
19:35:31 <pikhq_> I've found I'm unhappy with all browsers.
19:35:35 <pikhq_> But least unhappy with Opera.
19:35:59 <Vorpal> I never really liked opera, not for any specific reason though, just generally unhappy with it
19:36:38 <pikhq_> Firefox is the slowest, buggiest piece of shit. Chrome is well-implemented, but my web browsing habits are incompatible with its UI.
19:36:51 <Vorpal> what habits are those?
19:36:53 <pikhq_> To give you an idea: I use vertical tabs.
19:37:05 <Vorpal> does even firefox support that?
19:37:16 <Vorpal> so tabs on the side instead of the top?
19:37:33 <Vorpal> what are the advantages of that setup?
19:37:55 <pikhq_> Easy access to a giant bunch of tabs. Makes use of screen real estate better.
19:38:13 <Vorpal> assuming you have a wide screen monitor that is
19:38:20 <Vorpal> otherwise it would waste space
19:38:30 <Vorpal> also assuming you use full screen browser
19:38:44 <Vorpal> so not a good setup for me
19:38:51 <pikhq_> The big thing, though, is that I use a *lot* of tabs.
19:38:57 <Vorpal> IMO chrome works well for me except for the unified URL/search thing
19:39:43 <Vorpal> and I try to cut down on number of tabs, I found I simply used it as a backlog and would not end up using the top ones once they went down more than a few lines in firefox (with tab mix plus)
19:39:54 <pikhq_> I have 52 tabs open right now.
19:40:11 <Vorpal> I used to have upwards of a few hundred
19:41:47 <Vorpal> question: does anyone have any idea why Android phones would adjust the volume in fixed steps, instead of a smooth slider?
19:42:28 <Vorpal> there seems to be no advantage to it, also it means I need to use the equaliser in the music player to apply maximum negative value over the board
19:42:45 <Vorpal> otherwise I would just use volume 1
19:42:53 <Vorpal> now I use 1-4 depending on the music
19:44:53 <atriq> I'm listening to Volume 6 at the moment
19:45:03 <atriq> Track 11, Wacky Antics
19:45:41 <Vorpal> atriq, volume 6 of what?
19:46:52 <Vorpal> I'm currently listening to the $10 reward from the ocremix kickstarter, which is an album by Big Giant Circles.
19:47:18 <atriq> Are you enjoying it?
19:48:11 <Vorpal> the album is called Impostor Nostalgia, I don't think it is pure chiptunes. It is chiptunes + some other instruments as well
19:48:56 <Vorpal> atriq, I'm glad I got my SB Live 5.1 working under windows 7 (64-bit) finally so I can enjoy some proper sound quality there, instead of the shitty on board.
19:49:12 <Vorpal> it is a massive difference from the so called Intel "HD" audio
19:49:29 <impomatic> Vorpal: no, not hard to master. But I'm interesting in implemented Forth.
19:50:03 <Vorpal> atriq, so I didn't have to reboot to enjoy this music :)
19:50:48 <Vorpal> atriq, btw it is only with these headphones that I can hear the difference, can't hear the difference with my speakers or with my earbuds
19:51:06 <Vorpal> BeyerDynamics DT-150 for the reference
19:51:09 <atriq> I'm not an audiophile at all
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20:01:21 <Vorpal> you know what, sound cards should support multiple streams of sound with different buffer sizes, that would make sense from a battery standpoint
20:01:37 <Vorpal> however, these days it is mostly software mixing, so I guess that would be tough
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20:40:34 <Vorpal> wth is a .tar.md5? It is ~1.16 GB, so I presume it isn't just a md5sum for the tar file...
20:40:52 <pikhq_> Maybe it's a tarball of md5sums. :P
20:40:52 <Vorpal> file claims it is a normal tar file...
20:41:10 <Vorpal> pikhq_, well it is a Samsung smartphone rom, I know that
20:41:18 <Vorpal> I'm just confused by the extension
20:42:58 <shachaf> kmc: Runs a command and prefixes each line with O or E and a timestamp.
20:42:58 <lambdabot> shachaf: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:43:19 <shachaf> (And also prints the exit code and maybe other things?)
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20:55:40 <FreeFull> Vorpal: Look at the filenames inside the tar
20:55:57 <FreeFull> I'm guessing someone just gave it the wrong extension accidentally
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21:20:59 <Vorpal> FreeFull, in fact it is tar + a binary md5 sum concatenated onto the end
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21:28:29 <FreeFull> Vorpal: Sounds like someone did >> instead of > or something
21:29:34 <Vorpal> FreeFull, I'm pretty sure it is *supposed* to be that way
21:29:45 <Vorpal> as in, that is what the flashing tool wants
21:29:47 <pikhq_> That's ridiculous, though.
21:30:16 <pikhq_> 'Course, you'd have to do that intentionally.
21:30:29 <Vorpal> pikhq_, but since when did big companies make sense
21:30:45 <pikhq_> The naive mistake of ">> instead of >" would probably result from someone doing that with the output of md5sum.
21:31:26 <Vorpal> anyway, what sort of checksums does tar have built in
21:33:07 <pikhq_> Looks like tar only has header checksums.
21:33:45 <pikhq_> Compression formats have some sort of checksum, though.
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21:34:08 <pikhq_> Looks like the common ones all use CRC-32.
21:34:49 <pikhq_> Ah, .xz has it optional.
21:36:23 <pikhq_> A .xz file may have a checksum of: none, CRC-32, CRC-64, or SHA256.
21:37:20 <pikhq_> Specifically, little-endian CRC-32 with polynomial 0xEDB88320, or little-endian CRC-64 with polynomial 0xC96C5795D7870F42
21:39:40 <kmc> shachaf: maybe i should use that instead of 'ts'
21:39:52 <kmc> but it would be harder to direct a whole shell script into it, from inside the shell script itself
21:39:57 <kmc> i could always put it in the crontab
21:40:10 <kmc> but i kind of like having it all within the script itself -- makes for easier testing, etc.
21:40:26 <atriq> I am now officially annoyed at the Cabal problem
21:40:57 <atriq> And the maintainer of authenticate-oauth
21:43:05 <kmc> "Due to the various emails received by our webmail users of receiving phishing spams, MIT will be upgrading webmail system to 5GB of space, Click the link below to login into your account for confirmation and upgrade. [link to phishing attempt]"
21:45:21 <FreeFull> What does amount of phishing spams have to do with how much space the webmail system has
21:47:25 <shachaf> kmc: Oh, I didn't know about ts.
21:48:13 <kmc> i thought what you said was a response to exec 3>&2 > >(ts >> log) 2>&1
21:48:22 <kmc> yeah <3 moreutils
21:48:26 <kmc> i use "sponge" all the time as well
21:48:26 <shachaf> kmc: Nope, didn't see that. Came up in a different context.
21:48:37 <kmc> also "3>&2" still feels backwards to me, intuitively
21:48:41 <shachaf> cat FILE FILE | sponge FILE
21:48:54 <kmc> i know why its' the way it is
21:49:38 <atriq> Because it's counting down@
21:49:43 <kmc> no because 2 is already open and i'm saying "send that data from 2 to 1"
21:50:02 <kmc> but when i'm opening a new fd it feels like the new fd should be the "destination"
21:50:28 <shachaf> I want to be able to say 2|program
21:50:37 <shachaf> kmc: Maybe it helps if you think of all fds as being open all the time.
21:51:32 <kmc> maybe this is related to the fact that write-only references are contravariant
21:52:08 <kmc> maybe i should use «echo | sudo sponge» rather than «echo | sudo tee»
21:52:33 <shachaf> But you want streaming, presumably.
21:53:00 <kmc> usually it is something like echo 4 | sudo tee /proc/sys/vm/frozzle_wobbles
21:53:29 <shachaf> There ought to be a program for writing data into a file streamingly, though.
21:54:31 <kmc> apparently Ubuntu 13.04 is Raring Ringtail
21:54:40 <kmc> i was hoping for Radical Radish myself
21:54:45 <shachaf> Did you see http://slbkbs.org/e/b.txt ?
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21:54:52 <shachaf> As a direct port of http://slbkbs.org/e/h.txt
21:55:14 <kmc> what is this
21:55:57 <shachaf> I was surprised at how easy it was to port a lazy Haskell program.
21:56:10 * shachaf suspects kmc has lost all interest in anything involving Haskell these days.
21:56:28 <kmc> i still tell people how great haskell is
21:57:24 <kmc> i've found that if i'm not thinking about haskell all day, it's harder to jump in and decipher some strange type signature
21:57:27 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_longest_tunnels_in_the_world&direction=prev&oldid=523562257#World.27s_longest_tunnels_.28in_use.29
21:59:26 <fizzie> Heh, our water tunnel is there quite high up.
21:59:33 <fizzie> ("Our" in quite a collective sense.)
21:59:59 <fizzie> It's the one that does deliver drinking water to people including us, though.
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22:01:59 <kmc> is it tasty
22:02:43 <fizzie> I rather like it, compared to water in several other places, but it could be an acquired taste.
22:06:38 <fizzie> There's no list of longest road tunnels, I was kind of curious. :/
22:07:02 <kmc> not a type signature; also not strange
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22:07:35 <kmc> that is a rather pedestrian kind signature
22:07:46 <fizzie> (At least Tunnel#Longest lists one.)
22:08:29 <FreeFull> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_long_tunnels_by_type#Road
22:10:00 <fizzie> Why are there no links to that from Tunnel#Longest, List_of_tunnels_by_length aka List_of_longest_tunnels_in_the_world, or the "Structure extremes" template? (If there are any, let the question to be modified to ask instead why I didn't notice them.)
22:10:24 <fizzie> I guess I should've gone to the List_of_tunnels category.
22:11:14 <FreeFull> I simply looked for longest tunnels
22:11:30 <FreeFull> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tunnels
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22:12:43 <fizzie> I wonder if I've seen any of those.
22:14:06 <fizzie> Oh, there is one; I've driven through that Sørdals tunnel in Norway. But it's quite far down the list, only 6.338km.
22:14:07 <FreeFull> Somehow wikipedia lead me to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_road just now
22:14:36 <FreeFull> "The first known musical road, the Asphaltophone, was created in October 1995 in Gylling, Østjylland, Denmark"
22:14:48 <fizzie> I didn't even know there was one in Denmark.
22:15:01 <fizzie> I had heard of the US one.
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23:09:54 <olsner> "Locations of singing roads and their sounds on Sound Tourism website" ... this is probably awesome
23:12:37 <atriq> Help I'm growing up
23:13:37 <atriq> I've made more than one commit to a thingy on Github
23:13:48 <atriq> I felt myself craving a bowl of cornflakes
23:14:10 <olsner> I've made two of those git things! one was the tests for the other
23:14:29 <atriq> Ooh, I need to make one that tests this one when this one is done-ish
23:15:24 <olsner> atriq: the tests will only be relevant in a very small window of time between done-ished and finnished
23:15:36 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, Police Commissioner elections?
23:16:00 <atriq> The candidate I voted for didn't win.
23:16:07 <atriq> He didn't win by a landslide.
23:16:23 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: can you vote for me
23:16:24 <atriq> He was the candidate most likely to appear in this channel
23:17:01 <lambdabot> ["\"MacGood\"","ConfusedWithVixenSituation","best-programming-language","food","naming","nethack","president","prove->","remove@src","sleep"]
23:17:28 <lambdabot> vote <poll> <choice> Vote for <choice> in <poll>
23:17:58 <lambdabot> ["Val_Dwa_Fem_Law","Wiz_Elf_Mal_Cha"]
23:18:16 <lambdabot> Poll results for president (Open): copumpkin=3
23:18:35 <lambdabot> ["\"MacGood\"","ConfusedWithVixenSituation","best-programming-language","food","naming","nethack","president","prove->","remove@src","sleep"]
23:18:44 <lambdabot> Poll results for sleep (Open): no=0, yes=7
23:18:50 <shachaf> @poll-results best-programming-language
23:18:50 <lambdabot> Poll results for best-programming-language (Open): COBOL=1, PHP=1, Coq=0, Agda=0, anything-else=0, Haskell=0
23:19:03 <lambdabot> Poll results for naming (Closed): Lovelace=1, Babbage=0
23:19:07 <lambdabot> Poll results for food (Open): quesadilla=2, meatball-sub=1
23:19:13 <atriq> COBOL was the language of my ancestors!
23:19:14 <lambdabot> Poll results for remove@src (Closed): no=1, yes=1
23:19:37 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover; You're not voting!
23:19:55 <shachaf> What? No. I'm not even British.
23:20:37 <shachaf> but it's two letters from baggage
23:21:42 <olsner> what kind of people (except macgyver) keep a geiger counter in their car?
23:21:53 <shachaf> @poll-results ConfusedWithVixenSituation
23:21:53 <lambdabot> Poll results for ConfusedWithVixenSituation (Open): no=0, yes=2
23:22:01 <lambdabot> Poll results for "MacGood" (Open):
23:22:29 <olsner> hmm, I read *computers in chernobyl
23:23:30 <lambdabot> poll provides: poll-list poll-show poll-add choice-add vote poll-result poll-close poll-remove
23:23:50 <shachaf> @poll-add best-spoken-language
23:23:50 <lambdabot> Added new poll: "best-spoken-language"
23:23:59 <shachaf> @choice-add best-spoken-language norwegian
23:23:59 <lambdabot> New candidate "norwegian", added to poll "best-spoken-language".
23:24:06 <shachaf> @vote best-spoken-language norwegian
23:24:08 <shachaf> @vote best-spoken-language norwegian
23:24:08 <shachaf> @vote best-spoken-language norwegian
23:24:09 <shachaf> @vote best-spoken-language norwegian
23:24:10 <shachaf> @vote best-spoken-language norwegian
23:24:13 <shachaf> @vote best-spoken-language norwegian
23:24:19 <shachaf> @poll-results best-spoken-language
23:24:20 <lambdabot> Poll results for best-spoken-language (Open): norwegian=6
23:25:27 <lambdabot> Poll results for best-spoken-language (Open): Manx=1, norwegian=7
23:26:27 <olsner> @vote best-spoken-language Welsh
23:26:27 <lambdabot> "Welsh" is not currently a candidate in this poll
23:26:57 <FreeFull> @vote best-spoken-language polish
23:26:57 <lambdabot> "polish" is not currently a candidate in this poll
23:27:12 <shachaf> @vote best-furniture-activity polish
23:27:12 <lambdabot> No such poll:"best-furniture-activity"
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00:26:48 <shachaf> @pole-results best-spoken-language
00:26:49 <lambdabot> Poll results for best-spoken-language (Open): Polish=344, Welsh=1, Georgian=1, Manx=1, norwegian=8
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00:27:32 <atriq> Did you vote for Polish 344 times, shachaf?
00:27:46 <shachaf> @pole-results best-spoken-language
00:27:47 <lambdabot> Poll results for best-spoken-language (Open): Polish=344, Welsh=1, Georgian=1, Manx=1, norwegian=8
00:27:50 <oerjan> @vote best-spoken-language georgian
00:27:50 <lambdabot> "georgian" is not currently a candidate in this poll
00:27:56 <oerjan> @vote best-spoken-language Georgian
00:28:10 <olsner> you should vote oerian
00:28:25 <shachaf> @pole-results best-spoken-language
00:28:26 <lambdabot> Poll results for best-spoken-language (Open): Polish=484, Welsh=1, Georgian=2, Manx=1, norwegian=8
00:28:36 <oerjan> but that language has never been spoken!
00:28:54 <atriq> @poll-results best-spoken-language
00:28:54 <lambdabot> Poll results for best-spoken-language (Open): Polish=484, Welsh=1, Georgian=2, Manx=1, norwegian=8
00:29:01 <Bike> so why is it pole
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00:32:31 <kmc> @vote best-spoken-language magyar
00:32:31 <lambdabot> "magyar" is not currently a candidate in this poll
00:32:43 <shachaf> @choice-add best-spoken-language magyar
00:32:43 <lambdabot> New candidate "magyar", added to poll "best-spoken-language".
00:32:47 <kmc> @vote best-spoken-language magyar
00:32:49 <kmc> @vote best-spoken-language magyar
00:32:50 <kmc> @vote best-spoken-language magyar
00:32:54 <kmc> @pole-results best-spoken-language
00:32:56 <kmc> @pole-results best-spoken-language
00:32:56 <lambdabot> Poll results for best-spoken-language (Open): magyar=3, Polish=484, Welsh=1, Georgian=2, Manx=1, norwegian=8
00:33:10 <shachaf> Though we typically call it Hungarian in English.
00:33:18 <kmc> maybe *YOU* typically call it Hungarian
00:33:25 <kmc> okay so do i
00:33:37 <lambdabot> New candidate "kmc", added to poll "president".
00:34:53 <oerjan> @choice-add president cthulhu
00:34:53 <lambdabot> New candidate "cthulhu", added to poll "president".
00:36:09 <olsner> @vote president cthulhu
00:36:24 <olsner> @poll-results president
00:36:25 <lambdabot> Poll results for president (Open): cthulhu=1, kmc=0, copumpkin=4
00:36:29 <kmc> why settle for the *lesser* of two evils?
00:37:10 <kmc> mwahahahaha
00:37:52 <shachaf> copumpkin: That's what you get for moving to CT
00:38:01 <copumpkin> I'm not even eligible to be president
00:38:07 <shachaf> No one likes Connecticut Yankees.
00:38:20 <shachaf> copumpkin: I'm not either. :-(
00:38:30 <shachaf> oerjan: Did you know dne :: (forall m. Monad m => (a -> m Void) -> m Void) -> a?
00:38:37 <olsner> shachaf: not even president of finland?
00:38:58 <shachaf> olsner: Not even that. :-(
00:39:07 <shachaf> "The President must be a native-born Finnish citizen."
00:40:53 <shachaf> U+FB03 LATIN SMALL LIGATURE FOREIGN FUNCTION INTERFACE [ffi]
00:41:00 <olsner> why this obsession with presidents being native born?
00:41:16 <shachaf> olsner: I don't know, man! It's totally unfair.
00:41:53 <olsner> if every finn votes a non-finn for president, who actually gets elected?
00:43:02 <lambdabot> Foreign.Marshal.Pool pooledNew :: Storable a => Pool -> a -> IO (Ptr a)
00:43:02 <lambdabot> Foreign.Marshal.Pool pooledNewArray :: Storable a => Pool -> [a] -> IO (Ptr a)
00:43:02 <lambdabot> Foreign.Marshal.Pool pooledNewArray0 :: Storable a => Pool -> a -> [a] -> IO (Ptr a)
00:43:12 <olsner> but which estonian? (are there more han one?)
00:44:28 <shachaf> oerjan: dastardly notation elimination
00:46:53 <oerjan> @djinn dne :: ((a -> (Void -> a) -> a) -> (Void -> a) -> a) -> a
00:47:10 <oerjan> @djinn dne :: (a -> (Void -> a) -> a) -> (Void -> a) -> a) -> a
00:47:21 <oerjan> @djinn (a -> (Void -> a) -> a) -> (Void -> a) -> a) -> a
00:47:33 <oerjan> @djinn ((a -> (Void -> a) -> a) -> (Void -> a) -> a) -> a
00:47:52 <shachaf> oerjan: Why are you using Cont?
00:47:57 <lambdabot> Oleg says: We show how to program with the law of excluded middle. We specifically avoid call/cc, which is overrated.
00:48:12 <shachaf> @djinn dne :: ((a -> Either a Void) -> Either a Void) -> a
00:48:19 <shachaf> @djinn ((a -> Either a Void) -> Either a Void) -> a
00:48:32 <oerjan> um it was the obvious way to get a monad with an arbitrary result...
00:49:03 <zzo38> You can use Cont without callCC, though, depend what you need that type for.
00:49:14 <shachaf> You can use Cont for anything.
00:51:08 <oerjan> i guess Either is simpler
00:52:08 <zzo38> FamicomHDL uses Cont without callCC. I also mentioned in esolang wiki some kind of fake I/O monad involving Cont.
00:52:14 <shachaf> Since you only need to use the exception once.
00:53:18 <zzo38> But you can use law of excluded middle instead of callCC too if you like; in both cases it makes classical logic from intuitionistic logic.
00:53:36 <oerjan> i think that @djinn is a little overcomplicated?
00:54:19 <oerjan> :t let f a = case a Left of Left e -> e; Right f -> undefined in f
00:54:21 <lambdabot> ((a -> Either a b) -> Either t t1) -> t
00:54:49 <zzo38> Could you use (>>=)?
00:55:26 <zzo38> For what you have there, you could make (either Left undefined) which might also do?
00:56:33 <shachaf> You mean either id undefined?
00:56:42 <shachaf> It should actually be either id void
00:57:00 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, that too. You are correct. It should be: either id void
00:57:34 <zzo38> But something like case ... of { Left c -> Left c; Right d -> void d; } seem would be like >>= void
00:59:01 <shachaf> The (>>=) makes it monomorphic.
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02:01:46 <Sgeo> <someone in #jesus> Sgeo: I have read that in the startings of war, hitler begged churchill for peace like 12 times, but churcill didnt want to accept it.
02:03:01 <FreeFull> Fuck you hitler and your jew-killing peace
02:03:51 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Why do you punish yourself?
02:04:11 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, he's being more "both sides were bad", I think.
02:04:29 <pikhq_> Which is a silly argument.
02:04:47 <Sgeo> That argument didn't even address my statement
02:04:58 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> rebels in general, or these particular rebels?
02:04:58 <Sgeo> * amelius has quit (Quit: Leaving)
02:04:59 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Because it seems clear that at least some of the time, rebellion is not a bad thing.
02:04:59 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> If there was a rebellion against Nazi Germany, that would have been good. The American Revolution is not typically considered to have been morally bad, as far as I'm aware.
02:05:29 <Jafet> History was kind to Winston, and dink to Addi.
02:06:26 <pikhq_> Sgeo: So, wait, was this guy advocating absolute subservience to whatever government exists at the time?
02:07:26 <Sgeo> Not entirely sure how absolute, exactly, but something along those lines. He's against the Syrrian rebels, and I wasn't sure if those particular rebels or rebels in general.
02:09:32 <pikhq_> That's actually kinda hilarious. Wonder what he thinks of states that ban Christianity.
02:09:56 <Sgeo> The person in question is l.
02:09:57 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/private/tfgrdt2v3rinnudt3yuipa
02:10:06 <Sgeo> (Note that I elided the actual nicks)
02:10:57 <Phantom_Hoover> sounds very clearly like he's against "rebels are good all the time"
02:11:45 <Sgeo> I asked, hold on let me paste that
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02:12:48 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/private/q3zrkexir8wus8qmuh5dw
02:13:06 <Sgeo> Hmm, I guess it could be more dodging than asserting that rebels are bad all the time.
02:13:23 <Sgeo> It's s's statement that seems slightly generalized anti-rebel.
02:16:14 <Sgeo> <l> the result of all this: ww1 gave us "Leage of nations" ww2 gave us "United Nations" and ww3 will give us the Luciferian NWO
02:16:14 <Sgeo> <l> thats "the Plan" basicly
02:17:17 <kmc> yeah i think nazis are the archtypal example that peace isn't always the better option
02:18:25 <kmc> also he *did* get a peace agreement from the british earlier
02:18:29 <kmc> and it didn't work out too well for them
02:24:21 <kmc> britain consented to hitler annexing part of czechoslovakia, then he went much further, then britain declared war, then later churchill came to power
02:24:32 <kmc> so i think by that point yeah he would be pretty inclined to view further peace promises in a dim light
02:24:39 <kmc> also why are you in #jesus
02:26:20 <pikhq_> kmc: He's a *regular* there.
02:33:12 <kmc> reach out and touch faith
02:33:53 <pikhq_> Weird given that, to my knowledge, Sgeo is an atheist...
02:34:08 <Sgeo> pikhq_, that knowledge is correct.
02:35:18 <olsner> if it was incorrect, would it be knowledge?
02:36:23 <olsner> back to the issue at hand then: why are you in #jesus?
02:38:10 <Sgeo> Because it's fun to watch? It's fun to participate in conversations as a voice contrary to ... I was going to say the mainstream opinion there, but as often as not it's Christians arguing with Christians as it is Christians vs non-Christians.
02:39:50 <kmc> i expect so
02:50:47 <shachaf> kmc: Is your web IRC thing going to replace #haskell?
02:51:23 <shachaf> You should have a feature where there are multiple levels of discussion, so people can make stupid jokes in one level without confusing the people who are asking for help at a different level.
02:51:58 <ion> IRC should have threads.
02:52:12 <Sgeo> Multiple levels would not solve the problem of different people having different competing explanations.
02:53:27 <shachaf> Maybe there should be a polite way of marking people who have no idea what they're talking about.
02:53:55 <zzo38> A codensity monad of a (->) makes a state monad; this can be used with continuations, too.
02:54:11 <ion> shachaf: +v is a good idiot flag on non-+m channels.
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02:56:16 <shachaf> ion: Yes, but it's kind of impolite.
02:56:19 <kmc> mit zephyr has "un-classes"
02:56:28 <shachaf> Also it's decided dictatorially.
02:56:40 <shachaf> kmc: I tried to connect to mit zephyr once but apparently you need to have an account?
02:56:49 <kmc> that is if people are answering a question on class "help", you can provide snarky useless answers on class "unhelp"
02:57:02 <shachaf> How do you get an account?
02:57:23 <kmc> well you can get an MIT Athena account by being sponsored by MIT faculty, employee, or organization, or other
02:57:35 <kmc> or you can get an account with one of the other zephyr realms that peers with them
02:57:48 <kmc> but there aren't any that take general public registrations
02:59:16 <zzo38> Continuation monad can be used as a kind of monad to build (possibly recursive) data structures. You may see one such example in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Bruijndejx in which it builds a recursive data structure of a simple I/O.
03:00:13 <shachaf> zzo38: Why do you need Cont for that?
03:02:20 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, it is one possible way to make it.
03:04:26 <ion> shachaf: I don’t see how one could mark people who don’t know what they’re talking about in a polite manner.
03:07:56 * Sgeo marks Ryan Kelker
03:26:46 <kmc> easier to mark people who do know what they're talking about
03:26:50 <kmc> like on stack overflow
03:27:48 <shachaf> It's annoying when one or two clueless people give clueless advice to another clueless person.
03:27:55 <shachaf> It just propagates the cluelessness.
03:29:43 <kmc> but #haskell is too wrapped up in the idea that #haskell Is Nice to tell those people off
03:31:01 <kmc> oh, hey, that's Geek Social Fallacy #1 isn't it
03:47:39 -!- trout has changed nick to variable.
03:58:59 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523\unfoog.
04:01:07 <shachaf> Wait, why am I still here?
04:08:37 <zzo38> I try to think of how to make some features of CsoundMML which means a program taking annotated orchestra and MML, and then writes a score file and inserts the necessary things into the orchestra (if any).
04:37:56 <kmc> a person complains that IPv4 broke on their Windows machine but IPv6 is working fine
04:38:00 <kmc> someone should just write a worm that does that
04:41:35 <hagb4rd> some good earworms for dear eso/droogies from uncle hagb4rd --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKzH6pRfzoU
04:42:25 <hagb4rd> warning this track is very affected with light
04:43:10 <hagb4rd> as it might had been during the age of the trees
04:43:36 <Jafet> ion: politeness is overrated
04:47:20 <shachaf> Jafet: I suspect ion agrees with you.
04:47:51 <ion> overrating is polite
04:51:06 <zzo38> I have typed the experience/inventory of the last Dungeons&Dragons session played so far, as I somehow have forgotten to do that before.
04:54:33 <zzo38> I have also wrote part of a list of lesser known deities which is part of what I remember from I read somewhere else, called Glo-Gleb and Arachne, and then I added my own, called Gxxyuxihuvxi.
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04:56:19 <Jafet> Geeksy Hooksy Hoofsy
04:56:47 <zzo38> What does that mean?
04:57:13 <Jafet> I should know, but don't
04:57:21 <zzo38> Then you must learn.
04:59:35 <Jafet> shachaf: okay, but not @.
05:00:55 <shachaf> Thank you for taking your snarkemarks off the main channel. :-)
05:05:26 <kmc> yeah i have thought as much on more tahn one occasion
05:05:56 <kmc> somethingawful forums have a related idea
05:06:02 <kmc> most forums have a "shitposting" subforum
05:06:09 <kmc> which is usually way more fun
05:06:21 <shachaf> kmc: Back when we had more than one channel in common, I would use each channel as un-otherchannel!
05:06:37 <shachaf> These days it's all boring and linear.
05:07:18 <shachaf> kmc: Are the somethingawful forums worthwhile? Someone tells me I should pay my $10.
05:07:55 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: one of these days I am going to patch MediaWiki to automatically map 24 year bans to indefinite ones :P
05:10:56 <kmc> they're pretty entertaining
05:11:10 <kmc> it's worth $10 lifetime cost yes
05:11:39 <shachaf> Sometimes I look at their IRC channel.
05:12:11 <kmc> how is it?
05:12:16 <kmc> oh don't :(
05:12:18 <kmc> i would miss you
05:12:47 <shachaf> Well... Maybe I should just quit being in 80 channels. :-)
05:25:16 <shachaf> I wish the Haskell web situation was better.
05:25:35 <kmc> i wish this song was louder
05:25:40 <shachaf> But given that it's terrible, I wish the Haskell abstractions over it weren't terrible.
05:25:54 <shachaf> kmc: Did you see _Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead_?
05:26:00 <shachaf> Though I've probably asked before
05:26:44 <kmc> everyone says i should
05:26:48 <kmc> why do you mention it now?
05:27:14 <shachaf> I watched (most of) the film yesterday.
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05:30:12 <Jafet> The worldwide web of lies
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05:33:59 <shachaf> kmc: Did you get the X1 in the end?
05:34:14 <kmc> well i ordered it
05:34:27 <kmc> won't get it until next month
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05:34:49 <shachaf> Apparently even the i7 version is 2-core, not 4-core.
05:35:04 <kmc> is there a 4-core mobile core 2?
05:35:57 <shachaf> That depends on what mobile core 2 means.
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05:39:04 <kmc> you should run for political office
05:39:23 <shachaf> kmc: But I can't be US president!
05:39:28 <shachaf> I'm constitutionally discriminated against.
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05:39:56 <shachaf> kmc: What I mean is: Does "mobile core 2" have some special meaning, or does it just mean "of the type that goes in a laptop"?
05:40:30 <kmc> i thought intel designated some of them as "mobile"
05:40:47 <shachaf> It's quite possible. I don't pay that much attention to that.
05:42:43 <kmc> also it needs to be available in the right physical form factor
05:42:55 <shachaf> My laptop has a 4-core CPU.
05:43:20 <kmc> double thin fine pitch micro small outline quad ball grid array, or whatever
05:43:57 <kmc> the famous DTFPμSOQBGA
05:52:17 <kmc> http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2012/11/attacking-hardened-linux-systems-with.html
05:53:01 <shachaf> kmc: I heard you were on the case of restoring rwbarton's quiz to the Internet.
05:53:58 <zzo38> What is rwbarton's quiz?
05:54:38 <elliott> the incredibly difficult quest of putting a file on the internet
05:55:30 <shachaf> kmc still doesn't have "his own website"
05:55:41 <shachaf> Even I have one, man! Though I should take it down.
05:55:47 <kmc> what about this one? http://ugcs.net/~keegan/
05:55:54 <kmc> it even uses sans-serif fonts now!
05:55:56 <zzo38> shachaf: Then why didn't you?
05:55:57 <shachaf> That's ugcs.net. Doesn't count.
05:56:00 <kmc> it totally has some css
05:56:06 <zzo38> And if you need one can you use your own computer?
05:56:32 <zzo38> kmc: Why does it matter sans-serif fonts or not, that should be configured by the client, it uses whatever default font is set, isn't it?
05:57:48 <kmc> apparently my blog articles now automatically appear in http://www.reddit.com/r/prograrticles
05:58:30 <elliott> pfft, that bot's list of blogs doesn't even have Arcane Sentiment
05:58:40 <shachaf> https://github.com/ekmett/lens
05:58:47 <shachaf> I'm editing the diagram. Are there any bugs in it?
05:58:51 <shachaf> Other than the one copumpkin found.
06:01:40 <shachaf> elliott: "plz" improve this type
06:01:59 <shachaf> data Foo a = Some a | forall o. (o -> a) (Foo o)
06:02:25 <zzo38> It looks like not valid
06:02:26 <shachaf> data Foo a = Some a | forall o. Map (o -> a) (Foo o)
06:02:53 <zzo38> What do you think it is supposed to do?
06:03:11 <shachaf> But I want elliott to improve it.
06:03:33 <zzo38> The second part seem like some left Yoneda
06:03:34 <shachaf> kmc: Your reddit username is prograticles_bot?
06:03:47 * shachaf doesn't actually remember kmc's reddit username, but it was some weird unpronounceable nonsense.
06:04:04 <monqy> shachaf: have you tried: type Foo a = (Nat, a)
06:04:05 <elliott> that Foo looks like a free monad
06:04:41 <shachaf> monqy: thats not an improvement :'(
06:04:57 <shachaf> monqy: and yes i have tried it, see above :'(
06:05:13 <shachaf> elliott: Well, the goal was to make something sort of like a "non-free functor"
06:05:13 <monqy> i don't want to see above :(
06:05:24 <shachaf> I.e. one that keeps track of the fmaps you've done to it.
06:05:31 <kmc> shachaf: people really love embedding GDB breakpoints in C source code, it turns out
06:05:43 <shachaf> Map id (Map ord (Map chr (Some 97))) -- e.g.
06:05:54 <zzo38> It isn't a functor then
06:05:55 <elliott> data Foo' r = forall o. Map (o -> r) r; type Foo = Free Foo' or something seems isomorphic.
06:06:16 <shachaf> kmc: I haven't read your post yet.
06:07:10 <zzo38> kmc: Can you embed GDB breakpoints in a C code? I have just used things like *0=*0
06:07:44 <zzo38> (which is probably not the best way)
06:07:46 <shachaf> I have just used things like asm("int3")
06:08:30 <kmc> zzo38: this is the way i came up with: http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2012/01/embedding-gdb-breakpoints-in-c-source.html
06:08:43 <zzo38> kmc: I will look later
06:09:01 <kmc> it's a macro that puts the current address into a special section
06:09:16 <kmc> then i have a wrapper around gdb which reads those and adds breakpoints to them
06:09:28 <shachaf> gdb has this nice Python scripting thing, I'm told.
06:09:30 <kmc> (or a gdb plugin written in python)
06:09:37 <shachaf> (Well, OK, no one told me it's nice.)
06:09:38 <kmc> yeah, somebody sent me one and i merged it
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06:16:01 <zzo38> Is this OK? 1097337155,1162588218,1231719311,1304961152,1382558180,1464769368,1551869087,1644148025,1741914154,1845493760,1955232530,2071496706
06:17:06 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
06:17:32 <shachaf> zzo38: Hmm, I'd say 1002841731,1095464447,1164270051,1222683387,1298220537,1352792256,1501379263,1641869480,1662853268,1785140043,1817697110,1857747801]
06:17:40 -!- Section42L has left.
06:18:24 <shachaf> zzo38: I might ask you the same question.
06:18:43 <zzo38> Are my numbers accurate?
06:19:41 -!- Fiora has joined.
06:20:02 <shachaf> > sum (read "[1002841731,1095464447,1164270051,1222683387,1298220537,1352792256,1501379263,1641869480,1662853268,1785140043,1817697110,1857747801]") == 17402959374
06:21:22 <zzo38> It doesn't look like it to me, since at least 1845493760 must be correct since it is 440 shifted left 22, I think. The others are approximate but I don't know if they are close enough.
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06:22:17 <shachaf> Oh, maybe we're talking about different things.
06:22:50 <zzo38> I am trying to make the notes 22 octaves higher from middle C.
06:27:49 <HackEgo> Section42L: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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06:37:57 <kmc> sigh, JavaScript MVC website uses exclusionary language ("Our users are software craftsmen...")
06:38:00 <kmc> and I feel like there's probably no harm meant and this could be fixed quietly
06:38:21 <kmc> there is no way to contact them except through public Twitter or GitHub etc.
06:39:20 <kmc> which guarantees that every idiot brogrammer will weigh in, and much worse things will be said
06:39:46 <copumpkin> "PC POLICE ASSAULT, GET OUT THE BIG GUNS"
06:40:06 <shachaf> kmc: The whois record has an email address of a person listed as "founder"
06:41:09 <kmc> i could also get an email from whois
06:41:22 <kmc> i could also get an email from git commits, is what i meant to say
06:41:24 <kmc> but that seems creepy
06:42:01 <shachaf> I think if you list your name on the main page, and your email address is your.name@gmail.com, it's not unreasonable to expect emails.
06:45:26 <zzo38> Assuming you use Gmail and you use your full name for email.
06:45:44 <shachaf> kmc: Were you objecting to "${ADJ}men" or "crafts${PERSON}"?
06:46:00 <zzo38> I have WHOIS too but it is someone else not me, so it is someone else's name and email, although the postal address is the same.
06:46:37 <elliott> kmc: are you telling me you don't like dumb image macros in github issues
06:46:43 <elliott> kmc: who could dislike those!
06:46:52 <zzo38> It is not your business who it is.
06:47:04 <shachaf> zzo38: Whose business is it who it is?
06:47:11 <shachaf> Or is that also not my business?
06:47:17 <kmc> shachaf: heh
06:47:35 <kmc> i object to the implication that women don't use this software
06:47:36 <zzo38> shachaf: It is whoever's name is on there, and my own.
06:51:26 <zzo38> kmc: I don't think there is such an implication actually
07:14:59 <lambdabot> http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html
07:15:00 <lambdabot> Title: Douglas Hofstadter - Person Paper on Purity in Language
07:16:20 <kmc> or maybe i'm supposed to email contact@bitovi.com ?
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07:20:03 <zzo38> I have a book by Hofstadter, but not that one.
07:20:48 <kmc> i guess i will do that
07:21:15 <shachaf> elliott: psst but i read it in a book tho :'(
07:21:31 <Bike> it's in themas, which is a collection of essays I think?
07:22:12 <shachaf> It was a column in _Scientific American_ once.
07:22:25 <shachaf> Later it was published in a book.
07:28:53 <kmc> i'm getting a kind of brogrammy vibe from these people
07:28:57 <kmc> we'll see what they say
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07:38:00 <elliott> kmc: have you noticed that there is another problem with the paragraph "Our users are software craftsmen who care about doing JavaScript development the right way. They care about things like test driven development, performance, code quality, structure and maintainability."
07:38:18 <elliott> namely that it is self-aggrandisement that says nothing :P
07:41:28 <kmc> well if I sent an email to every website that does that, i would quickly hit my outgoing mail quota
07:43:04 <shachaf> When I send emails I like to paste snippets of them into IRC to show off.
07:43:07 <shachaf> I'm a real outgoing mail quota.
07:45:26 <kmc> that one took me aminute
07:49:46 <shachaf> I feel like I ought to write a compiler at some point.
07:50:47 <fizzie> I sporadically get this feeling I ought to write a self-hosting compiler.
07:50:53 <monqy> it's not working........................................
07:51:12 <shachaf> monqy: drat and double drat
07:51:24 <monqy> maybe it'll spite elliott though
07:51:54 <shachaf> elliott: blom should i spite
07:52:45 <shachaf> monqy: i wanted to sprite you
07:53:06 <kmc> you should write a vau calculus interpreter in scheme + enough scheme as a library for vau calculus to self-host it
07:53:15 <fizzie> "Blom's scheme? More like Blom's...", uh, I can't figure out how to continue from there.
07:54:15 <elliott> <fizzie> I sporadically get this feeling I ought to write a self-hosting compiler.
07:54:20 <elliott> fizzie: me too except I also get the feeling it should boot
07:55:15 <fizzie> I suppose it's one of those universal things, like the naked-at-school dream and so on.
07:55:19 <shachaf> elliott: So you know the issue of minimal complete definitions not being compiler-checked?
07:55:43 <shachaf> So you don't get warnings for "instance Eq Foo"
07:56:15 <shachaf> Would there be a problem with just explicitly specifying it to the compiler in a pragma?
07:56:41 <shachaf> I.e. class Eq where (==), (/=) :: a -> a -> Bool; {-# MINIMAL (==) #-} {-# MINIMAL (/=) #-}
07:56:49 <shachaf> Where you could specify any combination of operators in a pragma, of course
08:02:56 <shachaf> Is there a better way to do it?
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08:25:55 <elliott> you could do simple usage checks in the default definition
08:26:12 <elliott> at the cost of not allowing a == b = const ... (a /= b)
08:26:20 <elliott> not allowing as in it doesn't work for coverage checks
08:34:45 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy do the "do the "do the "do the "do the....
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09:08:44 <shachaf> elliott: No good in general.
09:09:00 <shachaf> I mean, no good with things in base, even.
09:09:34 <shachaf> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/base/4.6.0.0/doc/html/Control-Applicative.html#g:2
09:12:54 <elliott> iirc some and many only apply to some instances
09:15:11 <shachaf> Anyway this probably needs to be explicit.
09:15:44 <monqy> i was justa bout to do that
09:19:00 <shachaf> monqy: "brainwashed minds think alike????"
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09:32:35 <zzo38> But, some and many are operators which may apply to any Alternative even though they are not useful with some, they still have a definition which can be common for any one even though it may be infinite loop so not always the defined result.
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11:16:20 <ion> shachaf: ‽
11:18:52 <elliott> shachaf: has neutrino admitted he is cheater yet
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11:19:13 <shachaf> elliott: I don't think so?
11:20:01 <elliott> well the difference between "basically" and "yes" is more or less the crux of cheater's career...
11:20:44 <ion> instance Show a => Show (Bazaar a a t) where { showsPrec prec (Bazaar baz) = showParen (prec > 10) (showString "Bazaar " . magicShowsPrec 11 (baz MagicShow)) } or something
11:22:56 <shachaf> The challenge here is to write a Show instance for Bazaar?
11:23:07 <shachaf> Can you give me an example of a specific Bazaar and the output you'd want for it?
11:23:52 <elliott> why would cheater join #haskell under a new name anyway
11:23:54 <ion> show ((\f -> (,) <$> f 5 <*> f 6) (\a -> Bazaar ($ a))) == "Bazaar (… <$> MagicShow 5 <*> MagicShow 6)"
11:23:56 <elliott> wasn't he getting along just fine with his old name
11:24:02 <elliott> he was never banned or anything afaik
11:24:29 <elliott> ion: that sounds impossible
11:25:33 <monqy> borderline perhaps
11:25:51 <shachaf> λ> toListOf bazaar $ (\f -> (,) <$> f 5 <*> f 6) sell
11:26:23 <shachaf> I mean, a Bazaar is perfectly traversable.
11:27:12 <shachaf> bazaar :: Traversal (Bazaar a b t) t a b
11:28:06 <shachaf> Then again, you already know that, since you wrote partsOf. So I must still be missing something. :-)
11:28:10 <ion> elliott: Yes, i think so too. But i was asking in any case – i wouldn’t have figured out, say, something like Data.Reflection myself either.
11:28:38 <elliott> well apparently i was wrong and it is possible
11:28:46 <elliott> or else I am also missing something
11:29:21 <shachaf> I must be completely missing the point here. :-(
11:29:47 <ion> shachaf: Let’s forget about Bazaar. (,) <$> MagicShow 5 <*> MagicShow 6 == "(_ :: Integer -> Integer -> (Integer,Integer)) <$> MagicShow 5 <*> MagicShow 6"
11:29:59 <ion> shachaf: Reflection was just another example of something magical.
11:30:11 <shachaf> ion: What's the type of the function you want?
11:30:40 <shachaf> @ty \f -> liftA2 (,) (f 5) (f 6)
11:30:42 <lambdabot> (Num a, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> f (b, b)
11:31:40 <shachaf> foo :: (forall f. (Applicative f, Show a, Typeable a) => (a -> f a) -> f t) -> String?
11:32:41 <elliott> ion: You should omit the type signature on _.
11:32:45 <elliott> So you don't need a gross Typeable constraint.
11:33:04 <elliott> ion: (Did I tell you about reflection or have you, like, actually used it?)
11:33:45 * shachaf is now confused about what ion wants.
11:34:26 <shachaf> Anyway, isn't this just toListOf?
11:34:39 <ion> https://gist.github.com/6d958eef0df23c282cbd
11:34:41 <ion> λ> succ <$> shown 42
11:34:43 <ion> _ <$> shown 42
11:37:02 <ion> elliott: I don’t remember who mentioned Data.Reflection, i probably encountered it in #haskell. I haven’t needed to use it so far.
11:39:37 <elliott> when was the last time you used a reader monad :p
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11:45:35 <shachaf> λ> let foo :: forall a t. (Show a, Typeable a, Typeable t) => (forall f. Applicative f => (a -> f a) -> f t) -> String; foo r = let bz = r sell in ("(_ :: " ++ (concat $ replicate (lengthOf bazaar bz) $ (show $ typeOf (undefined::a)) ++ " -> ") ++ show (typeOf (undefined::t)) ++ ") <$> ") ++ (intercalate " <*> " $ map (\x -> "shown (" ++ show x ++ ")") (toListOf bazaar bz))
11:45:43 <shachaf> λ> foo (\f -> (,) <$> f 5 <*> f 6)
11:45:43 <shachaf> "(_ :: Integer -> Integer -> (Integer,Integer)) <$> shown (5) <*> shown (6)"
11:46:01 <shachaf> "worst text generating thing ever?"
11:46:21 <shachaf> ion: Of course, you can get more information that that out of it.
11:46:39 <shachaf> (And this would be much simpler if you just used Bazaar. But anyway.)
11:51:24 <shachaf> 12:54 < shachaf> Should I watch that?
11:51:24 <shachaf> 12:55 < tgeeky> shachaf: yes
11:51:24 <shachaf> 12:55 < ion> shachaf: Yes!
11:51:24 <shachaf> 12:55 < kmc> Primer is great
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11:52:04 <shachaf> ion: Anyway, the extra information you can get out of it is the reconstructed structure
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11:52:21 <shachaf> I.e. extract of the (Bazaar a a) comonad.
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12:22:14 <ion> shachaf: Ah, that does work indeed. I was going to the wrong direction thinking of how to do it with magic Functor and Applicative instances.
12:27:09 <shachaf> I,I All you need is Const (Const (Const Is All) You) Need
12:27:28 <shachaf> ion: You need a trickier magic Applicative for the other direction, though.
12:27:33 <shachaf> ...Which you've already written.
12:29:51 <shachaf> Just remember Bazaar a b t ~ ([a], [b] -> t) where the lists are the same length.
12:30:05 <shachaf> Hmm, "the lists are the same length" doesn't quite capture it, because one of them is in negative position.
12:30:09 <shachaf> But you know what I mean. :-)
12:30:18 <shachaf> The second list has to be the same length as the first.
12:31:55 <elliott> Bazaar a b t ~ exists n. (Vec n a, Vec n b -> t)
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13:32:45 <atriq> After that update, the local Gamzee cosplayer is in tears
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13:36:55 <nella> harry potter e il principe mezzosangue
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17:51:17 <zzo38> Would you buy it or use it if it were available? http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9500
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18:39:35 <Vorpal> zzo38, why would I want to?
18:50:08 <zzo38> Vorpal: I don't know; in case someone is interested. I would want to buy it.
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19:00:05 <Vorpal> zzo38, what does it offer that emulators don't?
19:01:11 <fizzie> The thrill of hardware.
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19:04:16 <zzo38> Depending on the implementation, it may be more accurate, and can use any cartridge and input devices, and some people may prefer to use this in some cases.
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19:05:32 <pikhq_> zzo38: The real important question would be, how accurate would the design be?
19:05:55 <zzo38> pikhq_: Of course it depend on how it is.
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19:07:34 <pikhq_> I assume you have no intention of even thinking about the expansion port of the NES.
19:09:22 <zzo38> Some of its functions which may be used might be wired through an adapter, if you ever need to use it for any reason.
19:13:21 <pikhq_> Hmm. Well, there is an easy way to make it useful-ish...
19:13:42 <pikhq_> The audio in line moved from the cartridge slot to the expansion slot in the NES, right?
19:14:30 <pikhq_> You could use one of the lines that connects from the cartridge to the expansion slot to carry audio from a Famicom adapter.
19:15:52 <quintopia> zzo38: is that just specs or do you have a circuit design etc for it?
19:15:56 <zzo38> Yes there is Audio in, in the NES expansion port, although I am not sure if it is the same thing.
19:16:52 <zzo38> quintopia: Just specifications; most of the circuit design would not be too complicated, though.
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19:24:42 <zzo38> The NES expansion port seems badly designed and mostly useless; the useful functions exist on other ports (including the Famicom expansion port). One thing on there that might seem useful sometimes (if PRG/CE is insufficient) would be A15; and even that is not so useful on the expansion port instead of the cartridge.
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19:27:45 <zzo38> It is possible for NES expansion port to be a bit more useful on the NES, but in what I described, with 60-pins cartridge, NES controller port, Famicom expansion port, it has the functions you need already.
19:38:46 <AnotherTest> What exactly would be wrong about the sentence "but the relationship ended long before marriage."? (as in awkward phrasing)
19:39:53 <AnotherTest> And what's wrong with "his hands flaunt in front of the Great Movie Ride in Disney World, Florida."?
19:40:32 <atriq> Some things are difficult and this is bad.
19:40:43 <Bike> can "flaunt" be used intransitively?
19:43:15 <Gregor> AnotherTest: (1) Somebody doesn't like beginning sentences with prepositions. (2) It has no obvious meaning, that's what. "Flaunt" kinda needs context, and as is rarely applied to hands... if it was his hands that were being flaunted, then it should have said "he flaunted his hands", not "his hands flaunt". "His hands flaunt" implies that his hands flaunt /something/, but we don't know what.
19:43:35 <Gregor> Neither are grammatically wrong as far as I can tell, they're both just terrible.
19:45:12 <elliott> "his hands flaunt" is such a good construction though
19:45:15 <elliott> on purely aesthetic grounds
19:45:31 <Gregor> Meaning is for losers :)
19:48:15 <oerjan> Gregor: "but" isn't a preposition, also it's _ending_ it with them ("marriage" isn't one either.)
19:49:13 <oerjan> well, not a preposition there, i can imagine other uses where it may be ("life is but a dream")
19:50:19 <Gregor> Oh, hahah, I'm bad at reading X_X
19:50:25 <Gregor> I take the excuse that I'm sick :)
19:51:34 <elliott> life is but his hands flaunting
19:52:10 <oerjan> well if anyone's hands could flaunt, it would be david copperfield, i think
19:54:18 <elliott> oerjan: there are no??? fields of copper though?
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19:55:12 <Bike> «(intransitive, obsolete) To wave or flutter smartly in the wind.» «(intransitive) (archaic or literary) To show off with flashy clothing.» so copperfield is really old I guess
19:55:30 <Bike> and his hands are well-dressed.
19:55:58 <oerjan> AnotherTest: i cannot find this wikipedia page of which you speak
19:57:27 <fizzie> oerjan: Copperfield has made it invisible.
20:00:02 <kmc> shachaf: http://grsecurity.net/~spender/jit_prot.diff
20:00:49 <Fiora> kmc: is that related to um... http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2012/11/attacking-hardened-linux-systems-with.html this post?
20:01:41 <oerjan> elliott: there are fields of gold, why not copper?
20:02:11 <kmc> i am the author of the latter
20:02:46 <Fiora> does that trick reliably avoid the problem, or can you like, still smuggle the instructions you want in by using non-immediate bits, like opcodes and r/m bytes?
20:03:09 <Fiora> it seems like it'd be trickier but is it still possible?
20:04:16 <kmc> yeah, it's a good question
20:04:32 <kmc> in this case you have a pretty limited range of opcodes and addressing modes you can generate
20:06:20 <Fiora> ahhh, so you can't use some of the really long opcodes like later-SSE stuff?
20:07:00 <Fiora> I'm imagining like, writing a search function that, given a set of operations you want to execute, tries to find some set of valid instructions that you could smuggle it in with
20:07:08 <Fiora> automating the process
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20:07:54 <kmc> that is probably a viable technique for attacking fancy optimizing JITs
20:08:00 <Bike> oh, i think a book i have had a very basic version of that, where you put in some shellcode and it tries to output it in alphanumeric code or w/e
20:08:45 <kmc> yeah there is a phrack article about that
20:09:31 <kmc> the kernel BPF JIT is simplistic and just maps each BPF instruction to an x86 instruction with a specific template
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20:13:34 <Fiora> the stuff I'm seeing about BPF talks about just-in-time compilation and stuff... but I remember your post talking about inserting specific x86 instructions, am I missing something?
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20:15:41 <kmc> yes but i have to go now, i can explain in 30 min or so
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20:17:51 <oerjan> elliott: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Making_Use_Of_Fat_Binders_To_Assist_Your_Weight_Management_Goals
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20:19:18 <olsner> hmm, a weight loss esolang? interesting
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20:20:16 <oerjan> nah, clearly you should have one register for carb, one for fat, and so one
20:20:57 <oerjan> and you need some binders, that's in the name
20:20:59 <Bike> the higher the values in the registers, the slower the execution goes
20:21:12 <oerjan> i think that requires something with scope...
20:22:57 <oerjan> maybe a lambda calculus with a culinary type discipline
20:22:59 <Fiora> consume [fridge+offsetof(fridge.cheese.swiss)] loads the cheese, and increments the fat, carb, and protein registers by the appropriate amounts?
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20:24:27 <oerjan> i guess we'll need BinderFactories, then
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20:25:44 <ion> Full of women?
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20:26:57 <Fiora> @google romney binders full of women
20:27:00 <lambdabot> http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/17/opinion/cardona-binders-women/index.html
20:27:00 <lambdabot> Title: Romney's empty 'binders full of women' - CNN.com
20:27:01 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, hey
20:31:08 <atriq> (my fortress backbone is weird)
20:31:35 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't get as anal when trying to position things then
20:31:51 <atriq> Weird and annoyingly regular
20:32:23 <atriq> And doesn't take into account the wonder that is minecarts?
20:33:38 <atriq> Had bad times with minecarts?
20:42:39 <atriq> Do we dare let elliott start?
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20:45:50 <zzo38> I think some effects for pictures could apply to sounds too, and some effects for sounds count also be applied to pictures and videos (you have to select which dimension you want, which may be time dimension). You could also apply some of the effects for still pictures to the time dimension of videos, too.
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20:47:11 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, do we dare let elliott start?
20:47:21 <Phantom_Hoover> well, you started handlekindled and i started rosyarrow
20:47:36 <atriq> But he is NO LONGER ONLINE
20:49:34 <atriq> We could let zzo38 start
20:49:45 <atriq> And see what hellish landscape we end up with
20:50:02 <kmc> Fiora: back
20:51:01 <oerjan> it will be extremely logical, from a certain point of view.
20:52:13 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Up for what?
20:52:29 <atriq> Starting the THIRD #ESOTERIC SUCCESSION FORTRESS
20:52:36 <zzo38> I do not know how that works.
20:52:58 <atriq> You'll figure it out
20:53:03 <atriq> It's a relatively simple game
20:54:09 <Phantom_Hoover> are you actually Fiona with a pen that doesn't quite work
20:54:36 <zzo38> I don't even know how to start to figure it out.
20:54:39 <Fiora> um... I'm just a friend of Bike (I think that's his name here?)... he mentioned this channel had interesting things
20:54:45 <Fiora> and I read kmc's blog sometimes
20:55:21 * Fiora hasn't ever, no :<
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20:55:26 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: No. I tried once but it runs too slowly.
20:56:31 <Bike> bike is bike, yes indeed.
20:56:42 <kmc> so you have to distinguish the instructions the BPF JIT emits from the instructions the attacker is smuggling in
20:57:05 <atriq> Did anyone ask Fiora the Hexham/Finland question?
20:57:06 <kmc> the latter are hidden within the immediate arguments to the former
20:57:29 <Fiora> okay, but like, let's say you have a JIT that compiles Java to x86, you can't control the x86 with the Java (at least not completely), right?
20:57:40 <Fiora> so how can you be sure to get the exact right instructions so that the smuggled instructions are right?
20:58:01 <Fiora> or does it let you give it full control over the input x86 (within the constraints at least?)
20:58:23 <kmc> you have to know how that particular JIT works
20:58:25 <Bike> presumably you have access to the JIT's source, or at least you can figure out what Java results in what x86
20:59:46 <atriq> Fiora, are you in Hexham?
20:59:49 <kmc> by reading its source, or by observing the output and determining it to be stable
20:59:58 <atriq> (important question)
21:00:19 <Fiora> hexham? google says it's a city
21:00:24 <kmc> in the case of the BPF JIT it is very easy because it translates each BPF instruction to a particular x86 instruction sequence, regardless of the context
21:00:40 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexham
21:00:40 <lambdabot> Title: Hexham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
21:00:42 <Fiora> erm, town I guess?
21:00:49 <kmc> a fancier jit will have fancier instruction selection, register allocation, non-local optimizations, etc.
21:00:52 <Fiora> I'm from the US <_<;
21:01:09 <Fiora> so could the JIT try to be "more secure" by doing unpredictable things with the code?
21:01:10 <kmc> and with a tracing JIT what's compiled is not a whole function but a single control-flow path, which can span several function and skip parts of each
21:01:12 <atriq> There are a ridiculous number of people from Hexham in this channel
21:01:13 <Fiora> like based on /dev/random
21:01:32 <atriq> Up to 2 at any time
21:01:33 <Fiora> I guess, random register allocation, random splitting of constants, random insturction reordering...
21:01:36 <atriq> And Finland is worse
21:02:12 <atriq> Although more proportional to its population
21:04:18 <Phantom_Hoover> if you were from the west midlands it'd emerge as a strong contender too
21:04:23 <Bike> random splitting of constants would be the big one, I suppose, since then the attacker can't even guarantee they'll have a sequence of bytes to jump to.
21:04:36 <Fiora> I guess, but what if you could do it entirely without constants?
21:04:37 <Bike> *an appropriate
21:04:41 <Fiora> like, just with opcodes and r/m bytes
21:04:48 <Fiora> that might be really hard though
21:04:51 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, shall I just start one?
21:06:00 <Bike> I don't think most JITs are going to emit the really complicated instructions that would be good for that?
21:06:34 <Vorpal> weird, I can't get systrace to work on my 4.1 android phone. It should work but I get error messages about stuff under /sys/kernel/debug not existing...
21:06:43 <Fiora> I guess if you could control the register allocation... but if it used only like a couple registers... yeah that would be hard...
21:06:47 <Fiora> I guess you'd have to try to be sure
21:06:53 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, i don't think elliott is going to make a showing so yeah
21:07:29 <atriq> Should I play vanilla or that mod you posted the other day?
21:07:33 <atriq> With the anthracite
21:08:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, want what?
21:10:07 <atriq> Okay, worldgen has begun
21:12:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, think so, ages ago
21:12:16 <Vorpal> not sure why I would listen to it now though
21:12:55 <atriq> Dwarf Fortress worldgen isn't as awesome as SBurb loading screen
21:13:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, FireFly, there? I left eclipse running on that upgrade... It just finished XD
21:13:58 <atriq> Some pretty crazy stuff happens in SBurb worldgen too, mind
21:14:14 <atriq> Although time travel/predestination makes it unclear when that happens
21:14:30 <Vorpal> FireFly, remember we talked about that yesterday or so?
21:14:49 <Vorpal> FireFly, the slooow eclipse upgrade?
21:15:08 <Vorpal> weird, who was it then I talked to
21:15:18 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, I think so?
21:15:22 <Vorpal> I know fizzie, and I thought you too
21:15:28 <Vorpal> oh well, doesn't matter
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21:15:48 <Phantom_Hoover> although i don't think we've seen a single standard sburb game so who knows
21:15:51 -!- jix has joined.
21:16:17 <atriq> It's possible there is no such thing
21:16:26 <atriq> Maybe the point of SBurb is to teach its players
21:16:48 <atriq> It teaches the trolls that supreming over everyone is bad
21:17:01 <atriq> And sometimes you have to admit that others are in some respects superior?
21:17:58 <atriq> And did that by making their subsession glitched in a way I don't know what I'm saying
21:19:27 <atriq> WorldGen is complete
21:19:46 <atriq> Just as the third version of SBurban Jungle I have starts playing
21:20:28 <atriq> There's the Volume 4 version, the Volumes 1-4 version, and the Brief Mix
21:20:42 <atriq> There we go, the brief mix has just finished
21:20:55 <atriq> Now for SBurban Reversal
21:24:02 <atriq> Okay, now to browse the suitable sites
21:25:19 <atriq> I've found a good place, it's quite hot
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21:26:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: That was reasonable.
21:26:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: And yes, I remember the upgrade.
21:27:35 <atriq> Hot, heavily forested, thick vegetation, wilderness, brook, some soil, shallow metals, deep metals, flux stone
21:28:10 <fizzie> Vorpal: The other person commenting on it was FreeFull, incidentally.
21:28:19 <atriq> The brook is called Bunnyidol
21:28:23 <Phantom_Hoover> finally a site where i can find an easily-accessible source of working fluid for my generators
21:28:27 <atriq> Which sounds somewhat suspicious
21:29:17 <atriq> Should I prepare for the journey carefully?
21:29:36 <fizzie> FreeFull: On Vorpal's slow Eclipse upgrade.
21:30:05 <FreeFull> I'm not going out there and making people's Eclipse upgrades slow
21:30:20 <fizzie> No, but you commented on hypothetical reasons for it.
21:30:27 <fizzie> Or at least someone with your name did.
21:30:42 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, only if you don't want to get started this week
21:31:22 <atriq> Embarking, whey-hey!
21:31:45 <atriq> FreeFull, the name of this brook
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21:35:07 <atriq> Okay, stuff IS HAPPENING
21:35:48 <coppro> where making this hapen
21:39:09 <atriq> Just struck Haemetite
21:39:46 <atriq> Or however that's spelt
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21:40:36 <atriq> Okay, we've also got Sphalerite, so I guess we could make zinc?
21:43:35 <atriq> First bedroom built!
21:44:32 <atriq> By which I mean, first bedroom made a bedroom
21:44:33 <Arc_Koen> is dwarf fortress a rogue-like derivative of minecraft or something?
21:45:23 <Phantom_Hoover> it's kind of like rts minecraft except you don't have direct control over your units and you just designate tasks to be carried out
21:46:22 <Arc_Koen> I thought it was like a first-person shooter
21:46:33 <atriq> I've just struck fortification agate
21:46:41 <atriq> It's a first-person miner
21:46:57 <fizzie> There's some bow-shooting going on in Minecraft.
21:46:59 <atriq> Imagine Minecraft meets Rollercoaster Tycoon meets Pikmin
21:47:22 <atriq> I thought it was some sort of concrete or something
21:47:33 <Phantom_Hoover> you have a bunch of dwarves, they need to be kept alive and happy
21:47:34 <atriq> But that's fortification aggregate
21:48:09 <Phantom_Hoover> you designate an area for mining or a workshop to be built or whatever and eventually they'll do it
21:49:16 <fizzie> I thought that horribly crappy Sonic animation was bad in YouTube recommendations, but now it's some "live-action" (..maybe, judging from the thumbnail..) thing with Sonic edited in, titled "A Day in the Life of Sonic- Sonic tries to get laid".
21:49:55 <fizzie> And then some Battle Programmer Shirase stuff. (Okay, at least that's kinda hilarious.)
21:54:49 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: The other person commenting on it was FreeFull, incidentally. <--- aah, F<lower case>F<lower case> in both cases
21:55:15 <Vorpal> FireFly, so in practise it could have been you :P Very similar nick shape
21:56:28 <Vorpal> sure, but apart from that, very similar
21:56:58 <Vorpal> FreeFull, anyway, I left the eclipse upgrade running, I finished just half an hour ago or something like that
21:57:23 <Vorpal> looks like the eclipse mirror system is royally fucked up to me, "no mirrors found" it says now for me
21:57:36 <FireFly> I usually distinguish by nick length and nick colour. Not that the latter is very helpful in this case: http://i.imgur.com/t15X7.png
21:57:51 <Vorpal> I don't do coloured nicks
21:58:32 <Vorpal> ah now it started working again, (the mirror system)
22:01:25 <atriq> Agriculture has started
22:01:42 <FreeFull> Unless someone highlights me, then their nick is yellow on that line
22:01:45 <Vorpal> blue on a white background (using xchat atm)
22:02:02 <Vorpal> my own lines are grey, and highlights are red
22:02:10 <Vorpal> oh and the text is black
22:02:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I never had any problems with that
22:09:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what is the cause?
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22:10:09 <atriq> Try turning down your graphics settings?
22:10:59 <Phantom_Hoover> also dfhack now has an ingame version of the dwarftherapist interface
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22:13:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, dwarftherapist?
22:15:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't remember using that tool
22:15:15 <Vorpal> is it some sort of cheating tool?
22:15:22 <Vorpal> I know a lot of dfhack is
22:15:46 <Phantom_Hoover> it's the one that makes managing labours actually possible
22:16:54 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: FPS death?
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22:32:50 <Arc_Koen> so, they travel from atlantis to that planet with an atlantis-like tower; they initiate a revolution there, and deplete de zpm that was powering everything
22:33:08 <Arc_Koen> leaving them defenseless from the wraith
22:33:33 <Arc_Koen> and in return for that "help" they take a lot of the drones and jumpers
22:34:33 <Arc_Koen> to make things better, sheppard gets to have sex with a girl by promising her he will marry her and they'll rule the planet together; then he dumps her and get back to atlantis (with his jumpers and drones)
22:35:19 <Arc_Koen> how the heck is that morally suitable for a stargate team??
22:35:38 <Phantom_Hoover> he's the fortress carpenter, doctor and secondary miner
22:36:11 <Gregor> And his name is Garry.
22:36:16 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover doesn't know oerjan's real name.
22:39:19 <atriq> Did I travel back in time and give you Palacecrushed?
22:39:39 <atriq> Because then I will have a time machine
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22:52:50 <Sgeo> atriq, Phantom_Hoover, you saw the latest update, right?
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22:54:19 <atriq> Apparently the local Gamzee cosplayer was upset
22:58:25 <Phantom_Hoover> matchedroad seems to have fallen into a state where nobody is actually doing their job because they're too busy doing work on the megaproject
22:59:39 <Phantom_Hoover> largely because of this overspecialisation it is also the unhappiest peacetime fort i have ever run
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23:23:12 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: weeeeeell I just tried my interpreter against your fibonacci program and it began to print an infinity of 1s
23:25:09 <Arc_Koen> do you have more intel on whether that's because of your program or of my interpreter? (for instance do you have a simpler program?)
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23:29:34 <Sgeo> "Law of mathematics: any comprehensible math can be generalized to the point that it really f%*ks with your head."
23:30:02 <Bike> apply recursively, get cat theory?
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23:30:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I was starting work on moving into the mighty Tower of Dorf when a goblin thief and a werecivet arrived in short succession
23:50:18 <oerjan> Bike: i'm sure it goes _way_ deeper than that.
23:50:37 <Bike> what goes way deeper than what
23:58:22 <zzo38> Sgeo: Is that how it works? Are you sure?
23:58:37 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: I don't know which is wrong (maybe both are wrong).
23:59:56 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: well mostly I made a mistake while copying it (I don't have a parser yet, so now it looks like [Pushn 0; Succ; Pushn 0; Store; Pushinf; Loop [Pushn 0; Fetch; Output; Pushn 0; Fetch; Pushn 0; Fetch; Pushn 0; Succ; Fetch; Loop [Succ]; Pushn 0; Store; Pushn 0; Succ; Store]]
00:00:08 <Arc_Koen> but now it seems to be either an infinite loop or very slow
00:00:28 <Arc_Koen> so I was wondering if you had any smaller, more simple programs to test
00:00:50 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: No, I don't have some, sorry
00:01:35 <Arc_Koen> in that case the fight between the part of me that wants to complete this and the part of me that's bored and not motivated will be even harder
00:02:36 <quintopia> i feel like cat theory is not just an abbreviation of category theory
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00:12:22 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: OK, I just wrote a Truth-machine and it works properly
00:12:51 <coppro> haha http://dumbpajamas.tumblr.com/post/35998874236/its-not-an-allegation-anymore
00:12:52 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: Maybe my program is wrong then; if that is the case, you can fix it.
00:13:25 <Arc_Koen> I will compare what instructions you use in your program that I don't use in the truth-machine
00:14:09 <Arc_Koen> and if I can't see where my interpreter is wrong then I'll try to understand your program to see if it's wrong
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00:29:05 <kmc> coppro: that's a good show
00:34:33 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: haha. in fact it works fine. that's just, once again, a problem of flushing output...
00:34:46 <Arc_Koen> 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 987 1597 2584 4181 6765 10946 17711 28657 46368 75025 121393 196418 317811 514229 832040 1346269 ^C
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00:37:12 <Arc_Koen> I'll write a parser someday (I really got to find some way to do that in a more automated fashion) and then we can move Suxesol to the Implemented category!
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00:54:22 <FreeFull> Challenge: Write a fibonacci number generator that uses iterate
00:54:53 <monqy> const fibo iterate
00:56:28 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: back when i looked at ocaml, there were ocamllex and ocamlyacc
00:56:39 <Bike> you could just have a be a pair and the function be from (a,b) to (b,a+b).
00:57:41 <Arc_Koen> yes, I should take a look at those
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00:59:10 <Arc_Koen> it's just that so many esolangs have one-char instructions, or otherwise easily parsed instructions, that I took the habit to patch up dirty "parsers" of my own rather than bothering to look at them properly
00:59:21 <Arc_Koen> there's also a module from the standard library that's all about parsing and stuff
00:59:50 <Jafet> > iterate (round . ((1+sqrt 5)/2*) . fromIntegral) 1
00:59:52 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,177...
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01:06:45 <Bike> > iterate (\[a,b] -> [b,a+b]) [0,1]
01:06:46 <lambdabot> [[0,1],[1,1],[1,2],[2,3],[3,5],[5,8],[8,13],[13,21],[21,34],[34,55],[55,89]...
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01:10:16 <kmc> yeah it is strange that more esolangs don't have full featured grammar
01:10:29 <kmc> i guess it follows from the fact that most of them are brainfuck derivatives ;P
01:12:10 <Jafet> It just occurred to me that brainfuck is "context-free"
01:12:18 <Jafet> (in more than one way)
01:12:42 <Phantom_Hoover> most of them are brainfuck derivatives and the foundation of the current state of esolangs is brainfuck, befunge and false
01:13:59 <Phantom_Hoover> so everyone picks up the attitude that esolangs all have single-character commands instead of syntax
01:14:02 <Jafet> BF ::= + | - | , | . | < | > | [ BF ]
01:15:22 <Bike> the clear course of action is to start a new trend in languages that can only be parsed with unrestricted grammars
01:15:29 * oerjan swats Jafet for making an ambiguous grammar -----###
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01:16:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't know grammar, what's an example of a non-context-free one
01:16:28 <FireFly> the grammar describing the language { a^n b^n c^n | n >= 1 }
01:16:41 <FireFly> i.e. { "abc", "aabbcc", "aaabbbccc", ... }
01:16:44 <Arc_Koen> does ambiguous here means that you can't distinguish (BF BF) BF from BF (BF BF)?
01:16:53 <Jafet> Bike: that's called "mainstream languages"
01:17:30 <Jafet> oerjan: brainfuck is associative yo
01:17:37 <kmc> i guess it's just wadler's law again
01:17:39 <Bike> i'm pretty sure you only need a cfg for java...
01:17:48 <Jafet> Pierce through the lies, see the higher algebraic structure
01:17:57 <kmc> people are hung up on concrete syntax so they think the way to make a "brain fucking" language is to have bad syntax rather than strange semantics
01:18:06 <FireFly> Isn't C++ context-sensitive?
01:18:20 <Bike> c++ is ambiguous, as I recall, with the lexer hack and everything
01:18:25 <Bike> I was actually thinking of Perl.
01:19:01 <kmc> parsing perl is undecidable
01:19:05 <Jafet> Well, no one is arguing about comment syntax for brainfuck derivatives yet
01:19:12 <kmc> Jafet: don't be too sure
01:19:42 <kmc> since all non-command characters are comments, i think all derivatives are arguments about comment syntax
01:20:40 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: C is context sensitive.
01:21:20 <Phantom_Hoover> i wish i lived in a world where wikipedia articles were didactically useful :(
01:23:07 <lambdabot> shapr says: I've tried to teach people autodidactism, but I've realized they have to learn it for themselves.
01:24:43 <monqy> sometimes jafet talks, I'm an eye witness
01:25:34 <shachaf> kmc: Was that added in response to your post?
01:30:10 <oerjan> S ::= a B S c ; B a ::= a B ; B S ::= b S | b or something like that
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01:35:08 <oerjan> anyway an unrestricted grammar is basically a thue program without IO.
01:35:43 <oerjan> oh hm and a distinction of terminals and non-terminals.
01:37:01 <kmc> i don't know
01:39:21 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: that would allow cycles
01:47:29 <oerjan> no cycles with the distinction between terminals and non-terminals.
01:48:33 <oerjan> or well, with there having to be a final result.
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03:04:30 <Sgeo> monqy, [S][S][S]
03:17:31 <kmc> delicious lead
03:17:42 <Fiora> http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdoqrbCird1qj67q9o1_500.gif
03:18:06 <shachaf> monqy: i bet you want to fix `taking'
03:18:22 <lambdabot> Applicative f => Int -> SimpleLensLike (Control.Lens.Internal.Indexing f) s a -> SimpleLensLike f s a
03:18:42 <shachaf> > [1..]^..taking 3 traverse
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03:23:23 <kmc> wall candy
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06:55:05 <kmc> sounds like YOU need some Liquid Programr
06:55:37 <shachaf> kmc: Was that the response to your email?
06:56:21 <shachaf> kmc: I bet you want to figure out this taking business. :-(
06:56:32 <kmc> no a nonsequitor
06:56:35 <kmc> taking what?
07:03:13 <ion> shachaf: hachaf
07:03:22 <shachaf> ion: Oh, just in time to figure out `taking'
07:03:52 <shachaf> Oops, did I turn into `ski' ?
07:04:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: yes': not found
07:09:58 <shachaf> ion: This is like BazaarExercise++
07:10:28 <monqy> @karma bazaarexercise
07:11:02 <monqy> does bazaarexercise really deserve that 1 karma ?
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07:11:22 <shachaf> monqy: that karma was for bazaarexercise's capitalized brother
07:11:31 <shachaf> not sure how bazaarexercise got it
07:11:41 <monqy> @karma BAZAAREXERCISE
07:11:57 <shachaf> karma inflation: confirmed?
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07:34:04 <ion> shachaf: What’s wrong with taking?
07:34:36 <shachaf> ion: Laziness and/or the type.
07:34:51 <shachaf> > [1..] ^.. taking 5 traverse
07:35:03 <shachaf> An easy way to fix this would be to use unsafePartsOf
07:35:16 <shachaf> But then it only works for Traversals
07:35:20 <shachaf> We want it to work for Folds.
07:35:23 <ion> taking seems to use unsafePartsOf.
07:35:36 <shachaf> Are you looking at the git repository?
07:35:53 <shachaf> Previously it was written like dropping
07:36:34 <shachaf> So for that version, it's reasonably lazy, but the problem is the type.
07:38:52 <shachaf> Well, the problem is the implementation, not just the type.
07:38:58 <shachaf> But the former reflects the latter. :-)
07:39:00 <shachaf> But the former reflects the latter. :-)
07:39:07 <monqy> does the former reflect the latter
07:39:53 <shachaf> how could you make such an elementary mistake
07:40:10 <monqy> elementary mistake of asking a question
07:40:19 <monqy> "the most elementary of them all"
07:40:49 <shachaf> watson asked too many questions
07:40:57 <Bike> I feel like lurking here is going to slowly destroy my understanding of the use-mention distinction, and indeed what quotes are for at all
07:41:59 <shachaf> "surprise: you just unlurked yourself"
07:42:35 <Bike> i was "lurking", now I am "screaming" in "terror"
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07:43:06 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\...
07:43:24 <shachaf> "Bike's worst nightmare?" i "think so"
07:44:34 <lambdabot> "\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"...
07:44:57 <monqy> > text (repeat '"')
07:45:01 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at end of input
07:45:27 <shachaf> > text$replicate (a_billion) '"'
07:45:30 <lambdabot> """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""...
07:45:55 <lambdabot> "\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\...
07:46:04 <Bike> You mean minimal...?
07:46:12 <ion> Warning: Use camelCase
07:46:15 <Bike> So... I'm not here?
07:46:17 <lambdabot> "\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\...
07:46:26 <shachaf> Bike: maximal "ESCAPE SEUQ#NECE"
07:46:40 <Bike> oh man, my parents warned me about escape seq neces
07:46:51 <Bike> *seuq neces, apologies
07:47:44 <fizzie> You people are so "conf"using.
07:48:18 <shachaf> fizzie: "you know who else was confusing"
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09:51:47 <ion> http://japanesetransliteration.com/
10:04:34 <ion> http://labs.echonest.com/Uploader/index.html
10:06:45 <ion> It has a bit of trouble with 5/4. :-) http://labs.echonest.com/Uploader/index.html?trid=TRIOCHX13AFD0DF411
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10:10:09 <fizzie> Huh, I no longer have any sound out of this workstation.
10:11:26 <fizzie> Gnome's sound thing shows the right devices in the "Hardware" tab, but the "Output" tab only has a "Dummy output" in the "Choose a device for sound output" list.
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10:26:01 <ion> This one doesn’t quite work either :-P Animals as Leaders – CAFO http://labs.echonest.com/Uploader/index.html?trid=TREOUDY13B182DDC60
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13:40:57 <ion> Fire Tornado http://youtu.be/OL_VUh4gzIk?hd=1&t=1m55s
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13:57:26 <ais523_> hi, my laptop with a dodgy connection
14:01:25 <ion> hi, my fridge with some food inside
14:01:54 <ais523_> I mean, ais523 just joined :)
14:02:23 <ais523_> ais523 refers to my laptop in particular
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15:51:40 <atriq> People assume that time is a strict progression from cause to effect
15:51:51 <atriq> But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint
15:52:04 <atriq> It's more like a bit ball of wibbly wobbly time-wimey stuff
15:52:07 <atriq> Dammit, Phantom_Hoover
15:52:15 <atriq> I'm permanently in a mood for Homestuck music now
15:53:25 <atriq> First track of AlterniaBound
15:54:07 <atriq> Did you see today's update, btw?
15:56:11 <coppro> I love the extra few bullets at the end
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16:00:48 <atriq> Did anyone else get one of the thousand giveaway 0x10c accounts?
16:01:26 -!- segorev has joined.
16:01:53 <atriq> It's meant to be 0x10^c
16:02:30 <atriq> Accounts for the future Mojang game 0x10^c
16:02:32 <ais523_> umm, this could be a bit difficult to do in my head
16:02:59 <atriq> Which is set 0x10^c years after 1987
16:03:23 <atriq> Due to an endiness error on a cryogenesis machine
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16:42:04 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, the blood spouting from Gamzee's current wounds is a different colour to the blood from when Nepeta scratched his face
16:43:59 <Phantom_Hoover> at least two dorfs have run directly over a dead carpenter's corpse without remarking upon it at all
16:44:16 <atriq> Maybe they didn't recognize him
16:44:27 <atriq> "Hey, there's a dead dorf here. Is that Urist!?"
16:44:36 <atriq> "Urist had more blood"
16:45:26 <Phantom_Hoover> the especially annoying part is that as a result of this i can't actually convict anyone for it
16:45:41 <fizzie> "Urist's blood was a different color."
16:46:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I still have no idea who the vampire actually /is/, unfortunately.
16:47:24 <atriq> Who doesn't have a bedroom
16:48:35 <atriq> Put him in a locked strand extracting room
16:48:51 <atriq> With a hole in the ceiling for dumping raw adamantine
16:49:03 <atriq> And a hole in the floor for dumping the extracted strands
16:49:53 <ais523_> wouldn't she get annoyed, or starve to death, or something?
16:49:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I'll probably go for an airlock system for the strands though.
16:50:32 <elliott> they try to kill people I think?
16:50:32 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 8 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:50:39 <atriq> For shit and giggles, evidently
16:50:52 <Phantom_Hoover> She can't improve her skills but strand extraction takes ages to train anyway.
16:51:29 <Phantom_Hoover> She works really slowly due to an outstanding bug with alcohol dependence but again, strand extraction normally takes so long it'll still be an improvement.
16:51:34 <ais523_> does DF have any equivalent of a conveyor belt?
16:51:49 <ais523_> and what are strands anyway?
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16:52:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Adamantine is the top-tier metal in DF, and you refine the raw deposits into strands and then into wafers.
16:53:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Raw adamantine → strands takes an incredibly long time.
16:53:17 <ais523_> and then make things with the wafers?
16:53:27 <ais523_> also, doesn't mining too much adamantine release demons?
16:54:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Fortunately you can avoid that if you avoid mining the walls of the spires.
16:54:36 <elliott> ais523_: well there is hell
16:54:41 <elliott> but you just have to tip-toe around it
16:54:56 <ais523_> ah, you can mine in a pattern that just avoids hell
16:54:59 <ais523_> and, umm, ends up beneath it?
16:55:09 <Phantom_Hoover> The bit leading to hell is a small shaft in the middle of fixed size, so you can infer where it is.
16:55:33 <Phantom_Hoover> No, hell is underneath a layer of impenetrable rock at the bottom of the map.
16:57:08 <Phantom_Hoover> The adamantine deposits are narrow spires rising out of that, through a sea of magma, and a variable distance into the rock above.
16:57:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: apparently you can enter hell using a demonic fortress in adventure mode.
16:58:49 <atriq> Couldn't you make one in fortress mode, then abandon it?
16:59:06 <atriq> elliott, did you hear about PalaceCrushed?
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17:03:26 <elliott> atriq: i suddenly have encyclopedic knowledge of it
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17:10:07 <ais523_> elliott: do you have an encyclopedia about it hadny?
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17:27:40 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523_ is the only named dorf to get injured, fortunately.
17:28:09 <ais523_> why name a dwarf after the underscored version?
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19:06:48 <kmc> perhaps some day in the far future, computer science will invent a way to build parsers other than hand coded control flow around regular expressions
19:07:20 <atriq> computer science is a pretty cool guy
19:07:26 <atriq> Inventing stuff in the far future
19:08:40 <oklofok> you mean like context-free grammars and shit?
19:09:02 <oklofok> let's hope they get invented.
19:09:26 <kmc> this is my sarcastic way of saying "perhaps in the far future programmers will generally be aware of useful CS shit that has existed for decades"
19:10:40 <oklofok> parsing context-free grammars and their various extensions is like one of the most researched things in cs conferences. it's such an oversolved problem that people start snoring when there's a talk about that stuff.
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19:11:55 <oklofok> (not that i _know_ anything about it)
19:12:51 <atriq> Man, I can't wait to enter this world properly
19:13:09 <olsner> this world? you're already in it
19:13:12 <kmc> screaming, naked, and covered in blood?
19:13:13 <atriq> The mysterious world of computer science
19:13:45 <oklofok> i hear google tried to use context-free stuff for their translator. but turned out regexps worked way better for automation with such a supermassive data set.
19:13:50 <atriq> kmc, if I remember, I am going to one day turn up at a computer science conference for a talk that I am presenting, screaming, naked, and covered in blood.
19:14:13 <atriq> Just because I missed that joke until after I wrote that
19:14:22 <oklofok> a computer scientist told me about this in shame.
19:15:30 <kmc> yeah, that makes sense
19:15:36 <kmc> natural language is messy too
19:16:19 <olsner> that a CFG is not sufficient and/or good for parsing human languages might not be news for people who know stuff about that stuff
19:17:02 <olsner> news in general might not be news for people who know stuff about the stuff that the news is supposedly news about
19:17:27 <oklofok> it makes sense, but it's a bit sad because "the right solution" (from cs point of view) should be the best one _especially_ for such a large-scale thing.
19:18:23 <oklofok> luckily i don't have to think about these kinds of things, CA aren't useful for anything anyway.
19:19:43 <oklofok> olsner: it's much nicer to make a CFG for a subset of english than make a regexp for a subset of english though.
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19:39:45 <atriq> Destroy your desk it's useless now
19:40:07 <atriq> Build yourself a fort to hide
19:40:15 <atriq> Close your eyes and crawl inside
19:40:22 <atriq> You're sailing on the pumpkin tide
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19:44:43 <atriq> I need to either stop posting lyrics or find a Homestuck channel that isn't filled with RP'ers
19:47:41 <Fiora> I think esper has a big homestuck channel that doesn't allow RP/typing quirks
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19:49:24 <atriq> Fiora, none on mindfang?
19:50:06 <Fiora> I don't know anything about mindfang, didn't even know it existed until now
19:51:03 <Fiora> 19:50 [esper] -!- Topic for #pesterchum: Welcome gerbils! \\ http://mspa.vulp.in/pesterchum/ has rules and stuff \\ If you want to RP or use troll typing quirks, do it in another channel, not here. \\ Unable to talk? Try using http://esper.net/publicirc.php \\ the friendship sets sail at dawn \\ http://imgur.com/a/mwcBW
19:51:13 -!- oerjan has set topic: E_TOPTOOOLD | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:51:18 <oklofok> what are troll typing quirks?
19:51:34 <Fiora> :33 < this appurrs to be the purrfect place for your n33ds
19:51:50 <Fiora> http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/Typing_Quirk
19:52:14 <atriq> Fiora, mindfang is the server that the Pesterchum client uses internally
19:52:30 <Fiora> T3R3Z1 T4LKS L1K3 TH1S and so forth
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19:52:43 <Bike> is E_TOPTOOOLD ever an actual irc error
19:54:46 <oerjan> <Bike> I feel like lurking here is going to slowly destroy my understanding of the use-mention distinction, and indeed what quotes are for at all
19:55:01 <oerjan> just do some /// programming and you'll get it right back
19:55:57 <oerjan> Fiora: well we all hate Lolcode here, that's similar
19:57:12 <oerjan> elliott: my promise to fix the /// links back doesn't apply until they actually start working, btw, hth.
19:58:06 <oerjan> yeah, i know it's a tall order
19:59:31 <Bike> "Itflabtijtslwi – /// with input" why is everything unpronouncable
19:59:53 <monqy> it gives a pronunciation
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20:22:11 <Phantom_Hoover> mysteries of dwarf fortress: i have six chains, but i'm only allowed to use two of them for some reason
20:25:50 <olsner> use more than two and you'll start a chain reaction
20:28:16 <Phantom_Hoover> hmm, my jail cells definitely aren't designed for criticality safety
20:37:54 <oerjan> Bike: I DON'T SEE WHAT'S UNPRONOUNCABLE ABOUT ITFLABTIJTSLWI
20:38:37 <oerjan> i do the IJ as in DIJKSTRA, btw
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20:39:46 <Arc_Koen> I do the ij from Dijsktra as in Itflabtijtslwi, so I wouldn't know
20:39:56 <Arc_Koen> is that some kind of dutch weirdness?
20:40:48 <olsner> it's just a two-letter "y" look-alike - as in i and j put next to each other looks like a y
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20:41:08 <oerjan> <monqy> > text (repeat '"')
20:41:28 <lambdabot> """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""...
20:41:34 <monqy> lambdabot......................
20:42:09 <Arc_Koen> olsner: do you pronounce "cp" as φ?
20:42:24 <olsner> Arc_Koen: no, I'm not Dutch
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20:44:06 <Arc_Koen> that's ok, it's a greek letter
20:44:17 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/temporary%20shit/itflabtijtslwi.wma ?
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20:45:32 <olsner> the one part I find somewhat difficult is the -lwi at the end
20:46:02 <oklopol> dunno, i thought tslw was a pretty natural cluster
20:50:34 <oerjan> ...and that's from a finn.
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21:08:32 <oklopol> hey we even have str in some loan words.
21:09:03 <olsner> str is easier than tslw
21:09:38 <oklopol> it was a joke based on the guess that it's universally considered the easiest three consonant cluster on earth.
21:12:12 <atriq> It occurs to me that I have no idea where I saved my unfinished Haskell port of MCMap
21:12:52 <elliott> wait where do we have tchst
21:13:07 <atriq> This is something else, obviously
21:13:12 <atriq> And in "matchstick"
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21:15:20 <Phantom_Hoover> shattered illusion of the week: ian stewart's lectures aren't great
21:17:37 <Phantom_Hoover> revelation of the week: mathematicians make terrible caterers
21:17:37 -!- segorev has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:18:48 <monqy> good revelation? maybe it will save your catering party, one day
21:28:43 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: http://retroprogramming.com).
21:39:57 <oerjan> well _i_ for one wouldn't trust me to do catering.
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21:54:35 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe this is the price for having dorfs constantly tramping halfway across the map? who knows
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22:06:19 <atriq> Aaah there are too many SYNTAX AND KEYWORDS
22:06:30 <atriq> What does ~(foo) mean in C?
22:07:09 <Bike> ~ is bitwise not
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22:17:14 <atriq> This would be so much easier if I knew any C
22:17:37 <Bike> what are you trying to do?
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22:28:46 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a forgotten beast moving towards the entrance to my fortress
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22:31:19 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Say goodbye to your little friends.
22:34:22 <Phantom_Hoover> at least so far it's only set fire to one of the crappy armourers!
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22:35:57 <kmc> it turns out the reason code highlighting was broken in our app is that it was trying to highlight everything as matlab
22:36:00 <kmc> fucking matlab
22:37:21 <shachaf> Was it Objective C or something?
22:38:03 <kmc> it's just that the pygments "guess_lexer" function seems to always guess matlab
22:38:13 <kmc> in particular if the code block is actually just english text
22:38:35 <shachaf> vim highlights .m files as Matlab
22:38:41 <kmc> (by "broken" i mean that it would highlight things that weren't meant to be highlighted)
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22:49:52 <Phantom_Hoover> you just kind of stood around on the stairs, then went back home and left a single lasher to deal with the beast
22:50:54 <Phantom_Hoover> he basically whipped it apart piece by piece whilst on fire
22:52:18 <shachaf> yes, but not anyone *in particular*
22:52:54 <Gregor> Well, if they're all dead now, then you can sort of start over, no? X-D
22:53:06 <shachaf> can i be the norwegian ambassador
22:54:29 <Sgeo> Can you rename dead dorfs? shachaf could be the dead nobody
22:55:34 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, uh, pick any of http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Skill
22:55:57 <Gregor> What's the least helpful skill?
22:56:00 <Gregor> Can he be the latrine cleaner?
22:56:33 <shachaf> Hmm, that looks like a song.
22:56:51 <shachaf> should be set to the tune of "modern major general"
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23:04:21 <shachaf> can i be the norwegian ambassador
23:05:02 <shachaf> what ambassador can i be?????
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23:05:50 <kmc> Python threads suck, therefore concurrency is a bad concept. MySQL sucks, therefore relational databases are fundamentally wrong. Java sucks, therefore static type systems are worthless.
23:05:51 <Gregor> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> unfortunately df is not yet able to simulate norway
23:05:56 <HackEgo> 866) <Phantom_Hoover> unfortunately df is not yet able to simulate norway
23:07:43 <shachaf> kmc: I think most people who complain about concurrency complain about how hard it is to reason about.
23:07:53 <shachaf> Python concurrency is, if I remember correctly, unusually easy to reason about. :-)
23:08:16 <elliott> kmc: depending on what you mean by concurrency i'd agree with the firts
23:08:18 <kmc> but whenever somebody suggests improving python threading, the response is always like "you shouldn't ever use threads for anything anyway"
23:08:40 <kmc> right now i have a very specific need which would be easily solved by a competent threading implementation
23:11:39 <kmc> holy balls http://stackoverflow.com/questions/323972/is-there-any-way-to-kill-a-thread-in-python
23:11:45 <kmc> calling the CPython API from ctypes LIKE A BOSS
23:11:54 <kmc> shachaf: need to call a function with a time limit
23:12:03 <kmc> can't use SIGALRM because it interferes with python's shitty threading
23:12:07 <kmc> which django is already forcing me to use
23:12:22 <elliott> isn't this what that multiprocessing thing is for
23:12:41 <kmc> i think that library is also steaming dog shit
23:12:43 <kmc> but it might work
23:12:48 <shachaf> kmc: People in #haskell are talking about how to preserve its "niceness culture". You should post that post you wrote about it.
23:14:02 <Sgeo> kmc, ... oh, I don't actually need to do your use case, thought I did but I don't
23:14:27 <kmc> doubt it will play nicely with django
23:14:35 <kmc> "Functionality within this package requires that the __main__ module be importable by the children."
23:14:47 <Sgeo> kmc, I'm sort of abusing Python threading to work around a blocking API, although there's nonblocking versions but those require Tornado or Twisted
23:16:05 <kmc> hm no fuck this module
23:16:15 <kmc> i will just os.fork() and send the result back over a pipe and /fuck it/
23:16:23 <elliott> you can kill python threads you know
23:16:33 <elliott> like killing threads in almost all languages
23:16:56 <kmc> there isn't a public or reliable API for doing it either
23:17:44 <elliott> that applies to most languages though
23:17:58 <kmc> maybe the reliable part
23:18:02 <elliott> for instance you can't reliably kill a pthread
23:18:14 <kmc> GHC Haskell does have asynchronous exceptions and at least some thought put into making them safe
23:18:18 <kmc> i realize it's not perfect
23:18:25 <elliott> AFAIK GHC is the only runtime that offers thread-killing that you are actually allowed to use
23:18:41 <elliott> "See this thread by Sun on why they deprecated Thread.stop(). It goes into detail about why this was a bad method and what should be done to safely stop threads in general.
23:18:46 <elliott> "The way they recomend is to use a shared variable as a flag which asks the background thread to stop. This variable can then be set by a different object requesting the thread terminate."
23:18:58 <kmc> is calling function with a timeout really that unreasonable of a goal?
23:19:01 <elliott> the problem is that killing a thread is roughly a fundamentally unsafe operation
23:19:10 <kmc> yes i believed you the first 8 times you told me so
23:19:10 <elliott> especially, it more or less makes sure you cannot have any sort of guarantees
23:19:20 <elliott> kmc: that was the first time I said that
23:19:25 <elliott> maybe you misinterpreted other things I said as meaning that
23:19:35 <elliott> kmc: anyway calling a pure function with a timeout is reasonable
23:19:45 <elliott> what if it changes state? what if it acquires a lock?
23:19:49 <kmc> the thing i want is conceptually a pure function, although who knows what it uses internally
23:19:52 <elliott> what if it does blocking IO?
23:19:55 <kmc> answer: a bunch of poorly written regex parsing
23:19:58 <elliott> GHC gets away with the last one by never doing blocking IO
23:20:00 <kmc> it could go wrong
23:20:05 <kmc> but i think i could get away with it in this case
23:20:19 <elliott> so you are doing something unsafe in general
23:20:23 <elliott> but which works for your usecase
23:20:28 <elliott> that sounds like a good use of a non-public API :P
23:20:34 <kmc> there are degrees
23:20:58 <kmc> unsafe things should still be public and documented when possible
23:21:00 <kmc> harm reduction, man
23:21:08 <elliott> I think the thread-killing stuff is actually documented? not sure
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23:21:22 <kmc> well it may be documented as part of the CPython "API"
23:21:28 <kmc> aka "the parts of the interpreter we decided to not make static"
23:21:39 <elliott> anyway it is not like it is the only thing about threads which are unsafe and break guarantees
23:21:54 <elliott> I think concurrent imperative programs are basically a dead end, I don't see any way to make them feasible to reason about at all
23:22:25 <kmc> i disagree, i think with good tools for managing the diffusion of shared state, it can work
23:22:28 <kmc> but anyway
23:22:30 <kmc> i don't even want shared state
23:22:33 <kmc> just a timeout on a pure function
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23:23:09 <elliott> well I think modern non-concurrent imperative programs are basically impossible to reason about too
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00:57:20 <kmc> information-theoretically, how much do you lose by insisting on a self-synchronizing code
01:12:01 <oerjan> my guess is nothing in the limit of long enough strings
01:15:45 <kmc> i think so too
01:15:49 <kmc> or, sufficiently many code words
01:16:00 <kmc> the framing is a constant amount of mutual information between the sender and receiver
01:25:08 <kmc> the heating vents in my house are producing air that smells like naptha
01:36:39 <oerjan> just a portal to hell, nothing to worry about
01:42:25 <shachaf> kmc: have you had strawberries with balsamic vinegar yet!
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01:46:52 <kmc> the JavaScriptMVC people got back to me
01:47:24 <kmc> kind of an odd response
01:47:34 <kmc> it starts with "Thanks for pointing this out. And we will likely change it."
01:47:45 <kmc> and then explains various reasons why they shouldn't have to change it and don't want to
01:49:19 <kmc> predictable ones
01:49:28 <elliott> (1) we didn't mean that so it doesn't count (2) even if we *did* mean that it'd be okay
01:49:53 <kmc> i will unfairly paraphrase them as "it's your fault for noticing that the word 'craftsman' is based on the word 'man'"
01:50:06 <kmc> also "thinking of non-gendered terms is simply beyond my ability as a writer"
01:51:56 <kmc> ends with 'Do you think we can ever live in a world where we can say "all woman created equal" or "craftsman" without everyone getting upset? Where people don't read into meanings that aren't there.'
01:52:04 <kmc> which is a pretty perfect opportunity to link http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html
01:52:34 <elliott> do you think we can ever live in a world where people who make shitty javascript frameworks don't consider themselves authorities on everything
01:52:35 <kmc> also i guess this is one of those areas where calmly pointing out the unintended consequences of someone's actions is equivalent to "getting upset"
01:52:40 <kmc> elliott: no hth
01:53:30 <elliott> kmc: imo point out that "all woman created equal" isn't grammatically correct
02:02:01 <shachaf> You could just use Text. :-)
02:02:16 <Fiora> ugh, the "I didn't /intend/ to be sexist/racist/etc, so it wasn't"
02:02:28 <shachaf> kmc: That was the response you expected, right?
02:02:58 <kmc> also they cited south park to make some unclear point
02:03:01 <kmc> which is... not a great sign
02:03:05 <kmc> shachaf: i expected worse
02:03:08 <Bike> sounds like a bingo to me
02:03:33 <shachaf> "you think i'm sexist? well that just makes you sexistist!"
02:03:34 <kmc> like, they are saying incorrect things, but in a way which is potentially open to calm discussion, and they *did* say they're going to change it
02:03:44 <kmc> which is better than i hoped because i'm a misanthrope
02:03:48 <kmc> or.... humanist?!?!?
02:04:05 <HackEgo> Fiora: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:04:07 <elliott> welcome to the nick i haven't seen before treatment
02:04:11 <elliott> available exclusively from elliott
02:04:33 <kmc> i'm avoiding even saying that their word choice is "sexist" because at the end of the day this is a pretty small thing
02:04:38 <kmc> i would say "exclusionary" and perhaps "alienating"
02:04:41 <kmc> these are some good words
02:04:49 <Fiora> exclusionary is probably the best I think
02:05:21 <HackEgo> FIORA: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
02:05:29 <kmc> `WeLcOmE Fiora
02:05:35 <HackEgo> FiOrA: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
02:05:40 <kmc> i think fullwidth only exists in upper case
02:05:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: tervetuloa: not found
02:05:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ｗｅｌｃｏｍｅ: not found
02:05:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ: not found
02:06:00 <shachaf> fizzie: add `tervetuloa thx
02:06:04 <Bike> welcoming is hard
02:06:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Ｗｅｌｃｏｍｅ: not found
02:06:05 <kmc> `w3lc0m3 Fiora
02:06:06 <Fiora> eep so many welcomes
02:06:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: w3lc0m3: not found
02:06:15 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.22997
02:06:21 <elliott> Fiora: don't you dare feel welcome until this is over
02:06:29 <elliott> "ＷＥＬＣＯï¼ï¼¥" a victory for bad encoding
02:06:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `hello'': not found
02:06:32 <kmc> `welcome | rot13
02:06:33 <Bike> man there are only three welcomes
02:06:37 <HackEgo> |: rot13: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:06:39 <Bike> what is this garbage
02:06:44 <kmc> `run welcome Fiora | rot13
02:06:49 <HackEgo> ＦＩＯＲＡ： ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ， ＣＨＥＣＫ ＯＵＴ ＯＵＲ ＷＩＫＩ： ＨＴＴＰ：／／ＥＳＯＬＡＮＧＳ．
02:07:00 <kmc> perhaps we are... coming on too strong?
02:07:15 <Bike> stay strong, fiora, irc bots can't last forever
02:07:19 <elliott> thats not enough welcome imo
02:07:23 <monqy> Fiora: do you know who "sgeo" is
02:07:33 <shachaf> `run welcome Fiora | tr 'a-zA-Z' 'n-za-mN-ZA-M'
02:07:36 <Fiora> um... I don't think os
02:07:37 <HackEgo> Svben: Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: uggc://rfbynatf.bet/jvxv/Znva_Cntr. (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba vep.qny.arg.)
02:07:42 <elliott> i was just typing that god dammit
02:07:44 <monqy> Sgeo: put Fiora on the list
02:07:46 <elliott> except i stole the tr off google
02:07:53 <monqy> Fiora: "you won't regret this"
02:07:59 <kmc> Sgeo is the emperor of hexham
02:08:04 <shachaf> Fiora: You don't want to be on the list.
02:08:11 <shachaf> The list is the most annoying thing to be on.
02:08:12 <Fiora> idon'tevenknowwhat'sgoingon
02:08:22 <Bike> how do you tell if you're on the list
02:08:23 <shachaf> Fiora: Remember: "stay off the list"
02:08:28 <elliott> `run welcome Fiora | perl -e '$a=<>;print reverse $a'
02:08:32 <HackEgo> Fiora: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:08:38 <Fiora> what even is the list <_>
02:08:43 <shachaf> Sgeo: Don't you dare put Fiora on the list, you hear?
02:09:02 <elliott> `run welcome Fiora | python -e '__import__("sys").stdout.write(__import__("sys").stdin.read().reverse())'
02:09:06 <HackEgo> Unknown option: -e \ usage: python [option] ... [-c cmd | -m mod | file | -] [arg] ... \ Try `python -h' for more information.
02:09:12 <elliott> `run welcome Fiora | python -c '__import__("sys").stdout.write(__import__("sys").stdin.read().reverse())'
02:09:16 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "<string>", line 1, in <module> \ AttributeError: 'str' object has no attribute 'reverse'
02:09:29 <Bike> welcoming is harder than I ever could have imagined.
02:09:31 <Fiora> the feeling is apparently mutual :p
02:09:34 <shachaf> `run welcome Fiora | perl -pe '$_ = reverse $_;'
02:09:34 <elliott> `run welcome Fiora | python -c '__import__("sys").stdout.write(reversed(__import__("sys").stdin.read()))'
02:09:38 <HackEgo> \ ).ten.lad.cri no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF( .egaP_niaM/ikiw/gro.sgnalose//:ptth :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW :aroiF
02:09:46 <elliott> ^scramble Fiora: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:09:47 <fungot> Foa ecm oteitrainlhbfreoei rgamn agaedsg n elyet o oeifrain hc u u ii tp/eoag.r/iiMi_ae Frteohrkn feoeia r eoei nicdlnt).e.a.r ocrts#yt,crts odi et h o(.gPna/kwgosnls/:th:kwrotokec,otmon rmrF!nmopddanie gunl ...
02:09:56 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "<string>", line 1, in <module> \ TypeError: must be string or read-only character buffer, not reversed
02:09:57 <Fiora> what did I start here ._.
02:10:00 <elliott> you don't get any more welcomes
02:10:00 <lambdabot> import Random;main=mapM_((>>(י=<<randomRIO('̀','ͯ'))).י)=<<getContents;י=putChar
02:10:03 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
02:10:17 <Bike> welcoming is really hard.
02:10:18 * Fiora is completely confuzzled
02:10:20 <Bike> do you feel welcomed?
02:10:44 <monqy> i'll tell elliott he goofed
02:10:57 -!- elliott has joined.
02:10:59 <elliott> anyone else for me to welcome
02:11:09 <shachaf> Fͫi͘örͯa͜:͟ ͊W̗e̚l͖c̴oͣm̌ȅ ̃ṱo̔ ͂t̀h̥e͚ ̬i̸n͝t̍eͦrͅn͆a̱t̋i̮o̱n̓a̟l͡ ̭h̞u̪b̈́ ͤf͛o̎r̞ ̐eͭšo͞ţe̲r͎i͓cͫ ͇p̜r̠o̝g͡r͢ăm̚m̾i͗n̜gͨ ͧlͧa̠n͢g̽ûa͛ğe͎ ͊d͍e̋s̮ȋg͔nͤ ͎a̐n͜d͏ ̪d̘eͭpͪlͫo͠y̠m̻e̴n̽t̍!̉ ͍F͎ỏr̔ ̞ṁo̴ŕê ̓i͆n̻f͙o̥r͑mͦât̟i̭o̐n̄,͊ ̕c̉h̃e͊c͊ǩ ͠o̳u͇t̼ ͣo͜uͩr̳ ͑w̾i̟k͏iͬ:̉ ...
02:11:15 <shachaf> ... ̓h̎t͋tͥp̳:̮/̳/͉e͊ŝo̢l͕aͫn̝gͨs̴.̲o̶r̺g͞/̲w͎i̵k̂ĩ/ͅM̵aͩi̜n͝_̿Pͪäg͗eͩ.͊ ́(ͮF͜o͐r̵ ͥt͈h́e̴ ͢o̮tͩh̿eͅr̝ ͦk͓i͙n͖d̒ ̲oͥf͙ ͍e̟s̼o̙t̹e̴r̂i̠c̟a̸,̀ ̡t̄r̮y͡ ͛#̄eͥs͈ōt͆e̷r͌i̽c̝ ͋o̫nͩ ͮi̔r̢c̬.ͫdͩa͗ĺ.̑ǹe͍t͓.̜)͗
02:11:47 <shachaf> Fiora: "btw we don't like your kind"
02:11:47 <Bike> huh, the diacritic barf looks almost like music with all those overbars
02:12:25 <shachaf> Newcomers always demand so much attention!
02:12:27 <elliott> i just spent several minutes welcoming Fiora
02:12:29 <kmc> i wrote that zalgoizer
02:12:37 <elliott> rather upset at the implication that i don't like newbies
02:12:42 <shachaf> Back in the golden days of kmc+#haskell
02:12:58 <shachaf> Newcomers always need to be welcomed 12 different ways.
02:13:00 <kmc> mostly i like that it uses literal combining characters in the source
02:13:07 <kmc> i wonder if a strict reading of the haskell report would reject it
02:13:08 <elliott> Fiora: also where did you come from. this is part of your mandatory #esoteric survey
02:13:16 <kmc> a) hexham b) finland c) other
02:13:20 <Fiora> um, Bike invited me
02:13:21 <Bike> I linked her kmc's article on jit spraying.
02:13:31 <kmc> i believe in fact that Fiora was here yesterday
02:13:39 <elliott> you both have short names that start with an uppercase letter so that makes sense
02:13:51 <shachaf> 11:55 <oerjan> Fiora: well we all hate Lolcode here, that's similar
02:13:51 <Bike> drat, our camouflage foiled
02:13:54 <kmc> i noticed that we have both a FreeFull and FireFly, that's confusing
02:14:01 <elliott> kmc: can't bring out all the welcomes before you know someone's serious
02:14:22 * oerjan swats FireFly for confusing people -----###
02:14:23 <shachaf> Fiora: You know, I never got the welcome treatment.
02:14:38 * oerjan then swats Fiora for confusing his tab completion -----###
02:14:58 <shachaf> kmc: Did you ever get `welcomed?
02:15:05 <elliott> Fiora: it's ok. you'll get used to it. after a while the swats don't even hurt
02:15:13 <FreeFull> I've been registered with nickserv for almost two years longer than FireFly
02:15:13 <elliott> sometimes i don't even notice i was swatted
02:15:23 * oerjan swats elliott for demonstration -----###
02:15:23 <Fiora> but shouldn't you swat, like, the fly
02:15:32 <FreeFull> FireFly probably was in the channel before me though
02:15:35 <Fiora> I don't want to be swatted
02:15:35 <Bike> Just what are you implying!
02:15:41 <HackEgo> 62) * oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----### <FireFly> Meh * FireFly dies
02:15:53 <HackEgo> 6) <Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to science. <GKennethR> He's alive :P <GreenReaper> Even so. \ 9) <Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence \ 13) <Warrigal> "You're at that stage in your life where you're going to want to do some things in private." --my mom \ 16) <fizzie after embedding some of his
02:15:55 <lambdabot> simonpj says: My brain is too small to figure out the consequences of adding first-class existentials to Haskell
02:16:19 <shachaf> Clearly there's only one reasonable option.
02:16:30 <oerjan> Fiora: i already did hth
02:16:45 <shachaf> oerjan: You should swat me.
02:17:20 * oerjan swats the word "should" -----###
02:17:57 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEHwtD01MXc
02:18:32 <shachaf> elliott: I bet you feel like figuring out my lens problem.
02:18:37 <shachaf> edwardk and I haven't figured it out yet.
02:18:48 <elliott> i have a theremin, it's better than this one
02:20:08 <elliott> kmc: "Do you have a "code along" so I can get in on this ? Just wondering."
02:20:24 <monqy> is that like a sing along
02:20:35 <kmc> yeah i don't know man
02:20:38 <kmc> follow the bouncing ball
02:20:42 <kmc> maybe i shouldn't say "i don't know man"
02:20:49 <kmc> i don't know, ppl
02:20:51 <kmc> there we go
02:21:20 <shachaf> elliott: stands for "ppl for ppl liberation"
02:21:45 <kmc> parts per liter
02:22:44 <monqy> "python programming language", apparently
02:22:59 <monqy> i, too, don't know python programming language
02:23:04 <elliott> porcupines postulating latently
02:23:06 <shachaf> "ppl programming language"
02:23:14 <shachaf> "GET IT: recursive arconym"
02:23:16 <elliott> monqy: you don't know python?? knowing python is such a thrill
02:23:33 <monqy> elliott: i know python as much as anyone!!!!
02:23:34 <kmc> shachaf: woah
02:23:36 <kmc> that fucks my brain
02:23:50 <kmc> Python Is a pretty Cool language But I have Some Improvements
02:24:04 <oerjan> ppl stands for "language with no recursive acronym"
02:24:22 <elliott> monqy: the average person is pretty bad at python imo
02:24:31 <kmc> i was self-referentially complaining about hipsters before it was cool
02:24:32 <elliott> Fiora: are you still feeling welcome
02:24:38 -!- Jafet1 has joined.
02:25:03 <monqy> elliott: im probably "bad at python" just because of i try doing things and python does stupid things
02:25:09 <kmc> i'm going to keep saying that until someone acknowledges how fantastic it is
02:25:18 <shachaf> elliott: "i know python as much as anyone" --> the supremum of the set of everyone
02:25:18 <elliott> sorry kmc but nothing you say or do will ever be fantastic :(
02:25:30 <kmc> but could i be... fabulous?
02:25:38 <kmc> maybe faaaaabulous?
02:25:55 <shachaf> kmc: Isn't it great when you're reading a book from the 1950s and "fantastic" doesn't mean "very good"?
02:26:02 <HackEgo> 210) <j-invariant> 22:55 < qfr> How am I supposed to develop software in Haskell if I can't even prepare my projects in UML?! It seems like an impossible task. <j-invariant> HAHA [...] <j-invariant> this is amazing, like meeting a Mormon or something \ 366) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit out huge, meaningless type signatures] <Lymia> I need to learn more Haskell... <CakeProphet> ..I need
02:26:25 <kmc> perhaps the reason the adjective "awesome" dominates is that all others are perceived as "too gay"
02:26:40 <monqy> what a reason, that
02:27:17 <Jafet1> What's wrong with bright, happy adjectives?
02:27:17 <shachaf> monqy: "is this this channe p. bad right now"
02:27:23 <kmc> the morman doorman
02:27:26 <kmc> coming this fall to CBS
02:27:31 <oerjan> kmc: what a gaysome theory
02:28:22 <shachaf> FreeFull: have you considered changing your nick to "fremont"
02:29:16 <shachaf> elliott: should i use spivak pronouns like sorear
02:29:54 <elliott> kallisti: it was CakeProphet, not you
02:30:08 <shachaf> kmc: Every noun is instantly assigned a gender in my mind. :-(
02:30:13 <shachaf> "does that make me sexist"
02:30:14 <kmc> Jafet1: nothing wrong with them unless you are super paranoid about anyone thinking you might be gay, which apparently a lot of heterosexual men are
02:30:14 <KALLISTI> elliott: why would you lie to yourself like that
02:30:17 <kmc> don't totally understand
02:30:25 <HackEgo> 226) <j-invariant> I need a new desktop background <Gregor> j-invariant: Try http://codu.org/spinners.png (tiled) <j-invariant> uhrghoaudp \ 279) 00:07 Sgeo has quit (IRC is taking up too much of my time. I need time to study the Bible and find Christ.) 00:12 Sgeo has joined #esoteric. \ 366) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit out huge, meaningless type signatures] <Lymia> I need to learn more
02:30:36 <kmc> shachaf: is this because of hebrew or finnish or something
02:30:42 <KALLISTI> I think X is a pretty cool guy. E respects all genders and doesn't afraid of anything.
02:30:46 <shachaf> kmc: By the way, it's not always the same gender as in Hebrew.
02:30:51 <HackEgo> 366) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit out huge, meaningless type signatures] <Lymia> I need to learn more Haskell... <CakeProphet> ..I need to get op privs.
02:31:01 <elliott> a world in which CakeProphet has ops. what a world
02:31:07 <shachaf> kmc: Finnish doesn't distinguish "he" from "she"!
02:31:14 <kmc> shachaf: woah
02:31:19 <kmc> let's all speak finnish
02:31:41 <shachaf> kmc: "yeah but then you have to speak finnish"
02:31:48 <elliott> isn't finnish's singular they also their "it"
02:31:53 <kmc> that's sensible
02:31:55 <elliott> s/"//g needs to be more confusing
02:32:21 <KALLISTI> it puts the lotion -- you know what, nevermind
02:32:33 <monqy> hi what's going on
02:32:40 <lambdabot> Local time for Fiora is Tue Nov 20 02:32:39 2012
02:32:46 <shachaf> Fiora: GET OUT OF HERE YOU'RE RUINING MY TAB COMPLETION
02:32:50 <kmc> i'm trying to figure out a way to point out that labeling your opponents as "upset" is a classic tool of the patriarchy, a way of pointing this out which has some chance of being productive
02:32:50 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Tue Nov 20 04:32:49 2012
02:32:58 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
02:33:01 <elliott> that's not going to make Fiora feel very welcome shachaf...............
02:33:14 <kmc> can't drop the p-bomb just yet
02:33:38 * shachaf is not a fan of the p-bomb
02:33:38 <elliott> kmc: feel like making a terrible u mad joke round about now
02:33:49 <elliott> no i have to maintain my dignity!!!
02:33:53 <kmc> you have to be willing to throw it all away for a u mad joke
02:33:54 <KALLISTI> elliott: I have ops in other channels. thank you very much. I only occasionally abuse it.
02:33:57 <monqy> i can't find what p bomb means
02:33:59 <Bike> kmc: maybe making parallels with "hysteria", though maybe i'm assuming too much about people's knowledge of victorian psychology
02:34:08 <elliott> monqy: it's when you pee into a balloon and then throw it at someone
02:34:17 <kmc> i saw that on TV
02:34:22 <kmc> spoiler alert: it did not go as planned
02:34:35 <monqy> https://deepclimate.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/contraian-publication-record.gif i'm searching but???????
02:34:44 <shachaf> Bike: hysteria: a sexist word??
02:34:48 <monqy> http://www.p-bomb.net/ hELP?????
02:34:50 <elliott> mcintyre........... what are you doing
02:35:06 <elliott> not as good as sour cereal though
02:35:19 * KALLISTI is starting a new trend of UPPERCASE nicks
02:35:27 <KALLISTI> just wait. 2 years from now. everyone will be doing it.
02:35:39 <KALLISTI> too long have the lowercase nicks reigned supreme.
02:35:43 <kmc> /nick ΚΑΛΛΙΣΤΗΙ
02:35:53 <shachaf> can we start a new trend of kicking people with uppercase nicks
02:35:55 <monqy> You laugh at the right jokes, you fire back witty (but not to witty) remarks, your eyes take on a extra little sparkle and then, it happens. The 'P' Bomb.
02:36:04 <KALLISTI> I can't read that because putty sucks at UTF-8 apparently. or maybe it's Windows system fonts or something
02:36:19 <kmc> hacked by greek
02:36:36 <monqy> Short for "party bomb", P-Bombs are typically spoken in secret.
02:36:37 <monqy> Used by people in the party industry, P-bombers talk trash about other people inside and outside of the industry; other party professionals, vendors and clients..
02:36:39 <monqy> Whether they know it or not, dropping P-bombs works 100% against them.
02:37:20 <elliott> In my humble opinion, Charles Barkley is the greatest on-air talent we have in the United States; I can honestly say that with a straight face.
02:37:20 <elliott> He is completely honest and if you can't laugh while watching him on a broadcast then something may be wrong with you.
02:37:20 <elliott> Last night, the Orlando Magic advanced to the NBA Finals by knocking off LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers. However the highlight of the night for me came when Charles Barkley called his producer a p***y on air.
02:37:22 <monqy> i'm getting this all from multiple sources i want to be sure i have the right definition
02:37:27 <elliott> Yes, that's right: Charles Barkley really did say that. Talk about coming out of left field.
02:37:37 <elliott> The reason you're not finding anything is because there is no such thing as a phosphorus bomb today. The proper name is "incendiary bomb with white phosphorus", and it was outclassed by napalm since Korean War.
02:37:40 <elliott> it's the reporters with NO understanding of military terms, that invent names like "phosphorus bomb".
02:38:01 <elliott> Neopets "P-bomb" In-Depth Weapon Info | Neopets Battlepedia
02:38:08 <KALLISTI> that has some difficult phonation.
02:38:28 <shachaf> KALLISTI: "its just a terminal emulator that doesnt support greek"
02:38:54 <kmc> called him a p***y
02:38:57 <kmc> called him a PuTTY?
02:39:26 <kmc> i just realized PuTTY is way awesomer if you read it as "Pu TTY" instead of "putty"
02:39:50 <monqy> is a party on air anything like when you have a thing "on ice", like with the ice skating puppets and stuff
02:39:56 <elliott> this p-bomb result looks good but it won't load
02:40:04 <monqy> but maybe now the puppets are in the air
02:40:14 <elliott> Each time we venture outside of our beloved Orange Bubble, we are sure to meet and chat with the many non-Princetonians of the world. It is at this time that we are confronted with a perplexing dilemma that can have far-reaching implications for the rest of the interactions we will have with this person: Do we reveal the fact that we go to Princeton? And if we do, how do we go about it?
02:40:14 <elliott> There seems to be this sense of discomfort, this tendency toward hesitation, whenever a situation arises where we are prompted to disclose the name of our university. This is true not only for Princeton students, but for students of every school that has gained a prestigious reputation. However, to keep the focus on us, there is a Princeton-specific phrase that one of my classmates once used for this sort of university disclosure that I will use
02:40:15 <elliott> henceforth, and that phrase is “dropping the P-bomb.”
02:40:27 <elliott> wow this might be the most pretentious thing ever written
02:40:38 <shachaf> i have a check which is cached
02:40:44 <elliott> When entering into a conversation with a stranger of the non-Princetonian variety, the accepted protocol is not to first ask what res college the person is from, what they’re planning on majoring in and the other banal college questions we like to ask each other, but to start off more broadly. Introductions do usually include information about what people do with their lives, however, and it is a normal convention to ask college-age-looking peo
02:40:44 <elliott> ple if and where they go to school.
02:40:44 <elliott> When this question arises, we have two viable options: the straight P-bomb route or the New Jersey route. Many of us, I’ve learned, like to first choose the New Jersey route, where we simply answer the question of what college we go to with “ I go to school in New Jersey.”
02:41:09 <kmc> 'did they teach you that word at Talk Like a Dick School'
02:41:12 <elliott> The first possibility is this: We are not uncomfortable with dropping the P-bomb at all. In fact, maybe it’s our favorite thing to do. Maybe we love that moment when people ask us where we go to school so much that we draw it out, make it last longer, make a production out of it. They ask what school we go to, we name a state instead. Answering in this vague way effectively doubles the number of questions we get to answer about where we go to s
02:41:12 <elliott> chool, and we love that. And the suspense! We create this awesome level of suspense so that when they ask question number two — “Where in New Jersey?” — we can really drive it home with a nice, resounding “Princeton!”
02:41:33 <elliott> oh no it has 18 comments but the cache doesn't have them
02:41:48 <kmc> cache for your warhol
02:43:00 <shachaf> elliott: is plutonium still dangerous now that it's not named after a planet
02:44:26 <kmc> are amazon mp3 songs watermarked
02:44:32 <kmc> 5 year article in wirde says they are not
02:44:36 <kmc> weird magazine
02:44:39 <KALLISTI> I think shachaf has lost his mind
02:44:54 <KALLISTI> too much referential transparency.
02:45:27 <Bike> kmc: how would you tell if they're watermarked?
02:45:34 <kmc> i probably can't
02:45:39 <kmc> that is why i am asking other people
02:45:45 <Bike> 'cos i have a few songs from amazon and I haven't noticed anything
02:45:53 <kmc> for example someone in this channel might be jeff bezos's secret confidant
02:46:01 <Bike> other than the weird program you have to use to download albums for some damn reason
02:46:03 <kmc> if it's at all competent it would not be hear-able
02:46:05 <kmc> yeah what's with that program
02:46:08 <kmc> i have some open source workalike
02:46:18 <shachaf> kmc: The id3 tag says Amazon!
02:46:37 <kmc> [connection reset by peer]
02:46:42 <kmc> [kmc died on the way to his home planet]
02:46:51 <Bike> «All tracks were originally sold in 256 kilobits-per-second variable bitrate MP3 format without per-customer watermarking or DRM; however some tracks are now watermarked.» ok
02:47:06 <elliott> without watermarking with watermarking
02:47:12 <kmc> 256 kilobits-per-second variable bitrate motion picture experts' group layer III format
02:47:45 <Bike> http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=dm_adp_uits?ie=UTF8&nodeId=200422000
02:47:55 <kmc> successor of successor of successor of zero
02:48:10 <kmc> long live one
02:48:47 <shachaf> elliott: "lazy nats in lambdabot?????"
02:49:50 <zzo38> If you have multiple copies purchased could you use that to eliminate watermarks?
02:50:00 <kmc> Bike: i use clamz
02:50:03 <kmc> it's in debian
02:50:05 <kmc> works all rite
02:50:28 <shachaf> zzo38: Sounds like a fun watermarking scheme.
02:50:28 <KALLISTI> zzo38: yes. mv nowatermark.mp3 watermark.mp3
02:51:00 <shachaf> Such that given a file with two different watermarks you can't get an unwatermarked version.
02:52:54 <zzo38> KALLISTI: Not what I mean. I mean that multiple customer purchase it, combine it, to make it such that you now have a new watermark which is difficult to trace to the individuals unless you know the key you used.
02:55:36 <tswett> I see I've been quoted.
02:55:53 <tswett> I wonder if I was quoted saying that there is no computable set of axioms in first-order logic that uniquely defines the natural numbers.
02:56:06 <tswett> ...Gee, there's no computable set of aximos in first-order logic that uniquely defines the natural numbers.
02:58:00 <tswett> Good job, you've successfully broken mathematics.
02:58:20 <tswett> This will cause the world to explode in 1,000 days.
02:58:46 <kmc> so how bout them natural numbers, eh? ain't no computable set of axioms what can uniquely define them
02:59:58 <tswett> It makes me want to, like, postulate two hypothetical non-isomorphic standard models of the natural numbers.
03:01:00 <tswett> Let's do that now. Let Na be a model of the natural numbers in which Goldbach's conjecture is false, and Nb be a model of the natural numbers in which Goldbach's conjecture is true.
03:01:06 <shachaf> kmc: not in first order logic
03:01:41 <tswett> So in Na, there exists a natural number (call it g) that cannot be written as the sum of two primes. But in Nb, there is no such natural numbers.
03:01:58 <tswett> Does g also exist in Nb? If so, then Nb must have some prime numbers that are absent from Na, right?
03:02:09 <zzo38> Is Goldbach's conjecture undecidable? Does it depend on models of natural numbers?
03:02:24 <tswett> zzo38: yes if and only if yes.
03:02:51 <tswett> I think it doesn't make much sense to say that Na and Nb both contain g, but Nb contains numbers smaller than g that Na does not contain.
03:02:55 <zzo38> O, but other than that it mean you don't know?
03:03:03 <kmc> what's really crazy is that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadwiger%E2%80%93Nelson_problem might depend on set theoretic axioms
03:03:17 <tswett> zzo38: ...I think that's right.
03:03:51 <tswett> So what does make sense to me is to say that Na contains all the numbers that Nb contains, and then some.
03:03:57 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen).
03:04:13 <zzo38> Are there really different models of natural numbers which are not equivalent?
03:04:37 <tswett> zzo38: well, it depends on what you mean by "models of natural numbers", exactly. If you mean "models of the first-order Peano axioms", then yes, certainly.
03:04:37 <zzo38> I would think: data Natural = Zero | Succ !Natural;
03:05:00 <tswett> That's not a set of first-order axioms, though; that's a Haskell statement.
03:05:40 <zzo38> I know. But I thought it is equivalent?
03:06:10 <shachaf> COLON HYPHEN-MINUS LEFT PARENTHESIS?????
03:06:47 <zzo38> Well, if you ignore bottom, I mean.
03:06:53 <tswett> kmc: I dunno, that's not so crazy to me. In the past, the real numbers used to seem ill-defined to me. Then I learned how they were defined, but they still seemed all iffy and abstract.
03:07:12 <tswett> zzo38: well, yeah, that's kind of what the problem is. How do you say "ignore bottom" in first-order logic?
03:09:08 <kmc> real numbers is hax
03:09:21 <tswett> Okay, so Nb is a model of the natural numbers containing a counterexample to Goldbach's conjecture. Na is a model containing no such thing. We're also postulating that Nb is a supermodel of Na.
03:09:32 <tswett> Say that a "nubber" is a number that's in Nb, but not in Na.
03:10:13 <tswett> And a "namber" is one that's in Na. Aye?
03:10:25 <kmc> is it a hyphen? or is it a minus? only your wallet knows for sure.
03:10:50 <shachaf> "don't believe the hype hen"
03:11:02 <tswett> So the nambers are closed under addition, right? And multiplication, I think... exponentiation I'm not sure about.
03:11:11 <kmc> tswett: by "standard models" did you mean "non-standard models" above?
03:11:33 <kmc> how can they both be standard?
03:11:36 <tswett> I was kind of going for multiple standard models.
03:11:48 <tswett> Well, how do you define "standard" here?
03:11:52 <kmc> oh because we're talking about two different universes, with different results for t he goldbach conjecture
03:11:58 <kmc> and the "standard" model in each one
03:12:12 <kmc> but it's not thought that goldbach is actually independent of axioms, ja?
03:12:37 <tswett> It seems perfectly plausible that it is.
03:13:04 <kmc> i have no idea how to even think about the plausibility of that statement
03:13:09 <kmc> anyway please do proceed with your original train of thought
03:13:27 <tswett> Well, does Goldbach's conjecture seem like it's probably decidable to you?
03:13:31 <zzo38> But I thought, natural numbers is just zero and successor? Therefore how can there be different models following this specification which are different Goldbach's? Since you can define addition, multiplication, etc, using finite numbers. Using something like Typographical Number Theory that might not be the case though, but if you define like zero and successor instead it seem.
03:13:32 <kmc> sea dot sea
03:13:33 <tswett> It's independent of the axioms if and only if it's undecidable.
03:14:09 <tswett> zzo38: "just zero and successor" isn't a set of first-order axioms, either.
03:14:52 <shachaf> kmc: You should come back to #cslounge!
03:15:29 <zzo38> tswett: Well, yes, "just zero and successor" is like the Haskell statement I mentioned above, instead. Therefore, do you need a set of first-order axioms which means this specifically?
03:15:30 <tswett> The first-order Peano axioms are a set of first-order axioms. They're infinite, but they're also a computable set.
03:15:53 <kmc> shachaf: like a thief in the night
03:16:16 <tswett> zzo38: well, I'm *talking about* sets of first-order axioms.
03:16:30 <tswett> So if you want to talk about the same thing that I'm talking about, then yes, you need a set of first-order axioms.
03:17:35 <Sgeo> I hate politeness.
03:17:51 <Sgeo> It makes it impossible to ask someone "Hey, does this site work well for you" and actually get useful info
03:18:37 -!- tswett has set topic: E_TOPTOOOLD | the good news is, /usr/bin/make-loud-noises works. the bad news is, I think I just woke everyone up. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
03:19:06 <kmc> what does it do
03:19:44 <Sgeo> kmc, what, you want to test?
03:20:59 <zzo38> In Wikipedia "Peano axioms", if you just use 2,3,4,5 for eqality, and then you should define it. Is the zero and successor can be made the axioms from that? Due to such things as induction and so on, possibly not... and, is it infinite? They list nine axioms.
03:21:28 <kmc> /usr/bin/make-loud-noises
03:21:41 <Bike> they're axiom schema, aren't they
03:22:01 <tswett> zzo38: axiom 9 is stated twice. First, it's stated as a second-order axiom, not a first-order axiom; second, it's stated as an infinite axiom schema.
03:22:59 <zzo38> O, it is an axiom schema. Now I can understand.
03:23:26 <zzo38> TNT has induction as a rule rather than axiom.
03:24:49 <zzo38> They also say "if there is a proof that starts from just these axioms and derives a contradiction such as 0 = 1, then the axioms are inconsistent, and don't define anything" but, if there would be such thing even if you omit axiom 7 or axiom 3, does it define anything?
03:25:07 <kmc> "In particular, he gained international notoriety for his claims that blowing up the Moon would solve virtually every problem of human existence"
03:25:54 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Abian
03:26:12 <tswett> zzo38: uhh, let me rephrase your question, and you can tell me if I rephrased it correctly.
03:26:50 <tswett> "Suppose that, if you remove axioms from the Peano axioms, you can get an inconsistent system. Then are the Peano axioms inconsistent?"
03:27:01 <Bike> «Abian said that "Those critics who say 'Dismiss Abian's ideas' are very close to those who dismissed Galileo."» usenet has the best cranks.
03:28:13 <zzo38> tswett: No. That is not what I meant. I meant that if you have 0=1 it seem would be to contradict the axioms I specified. So, if it is inconsistent, and then does that make it not inconsistent?
03:28:59 <tswett> I don't know what you mean by "the axioms [you specified]", nor by the "it" in "if it is inconsistent", nor the "it" in "does that make it not inconsistent".
03:29:15 <tswett> s/ specified]/] specified/
03:29:50 <zzo38> kmc: Why would he say such things? Perhaps if they destroy humans it would solve that problem, if destroying the moon would have such effect, but still it won't help since it would mess up everything else too. Best way is allow planets to move how they do, to keep the solar system in order.
03:30:17 <zzo38> tswett: I mean axiom 3 and 7, I mean if you have 0=1 even if removing one of those two axioms.
03:30:48 <Bike> tswett: so, looking at tennenbaum's theorem... could you have an uncountable model of peano with computable arithmetic?
03:31:01 <tswett> zzo38: yeah, sorry, I don't understand what you said, and I don't understand your attempts to get me to understand what you said.
03:31:23 <zzo38> tswett: Oops, sorry!!!!
03:32:05 <tswett> I thought Tennenbaum's theorem said that no nonstandard model of Peano arithmetic can be recursive; it actually says that no *countable* nonstandard model of Peano arithmetic can be recursive.
03:32:43 <Bike> that's what I was referring to, yeah.
03:32:59 <tswett> Bike: well, the thing is, I don't think "computable" makes sense as a property of uncountable sets. We only speak of the computability of a set of it contains only finite strings, I think. And no uncountable set contains only finite strings.
03:33:49 <Bike> yeah, that's why I said computable arithmetic instead of computable set.
03:34:52 <tswett> "Computable function" can be defined as "function that, when considered as a set, is a computable set".
03:35:16 <tswett> And "computable arithmetic" presumably means "collection of arithmetic functions, each of which is a computable function".
03:36:18 <Bike> so no models with computably dealt with nonstandard numbers, then
03:40:47 <tswett> Yeah, that sounds true.
03:52:06 <elliott> did you know there's no computable set of axioms in first-order logic that uniquely identifies when tswett will shut up about there being no computable set of axioms in first-order logic that can uniquely define the natural numbers
03:52:53 <tswett> I will shut up about it after a non-standard amount of time.
03:53:16 <monqy> how about right now
03:53:22 <monqy> alt. in the past????
03:53:49 <tswett> Nope, it's only been 23 seconds. 23 is a standard number.
03:53:59 <kmc> how about eleventeen
03:54:31 <tswett> Can you give me a first-order formula defining eleventeen?
04:00:35 <pikhq_> 11 = succ succ succ succ succ succ succ succ succ succ succ 0
04:00:53 <monqy> > succ succ succ succ succ succ succ succ succ succ succ 0
04:01:06 <elliott> did you know there's no computable set of axioms in first-order logic that uniquely identifies what will make tswett shut up about there being no computable set of axioms in first-order logic that can uniquely define the natural numbers
04:01:27 <Fiora> shachaf: sorry, I was away for a bit... also my local time should really be PDT but I kind of forgot how to set it on this linux box
04:02:55 <elliott> Fiora: ln -s /usr/share/zoneinfo/[something] /etc/localtime usually
04:03:20 <elliott> might also be able to do "timedatectl list-timezones" then "timedatectl set-timezone <name>"
04:03:49 <elliott> though daylight savings time should be handled automatically if you have stuff set up properly
04:04:11 <Fiora> ln: creating symbolic link `/etc/localtime': File exists
04:04:15 <Fiora> should I remove it?
04:04:24 <elliott> depends, what does ls -l /etc/localtime give
04:04:38 <Fiora> $ ls -l /etc/localtime
04:04:38 <Fiora> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 118 Jul 27 16:39 /etc/localtime
04:04:55 <elliott> since that should be a symlink :P
04:05:09 <Fiora> I must have botched it at some point <_>
04:05:24 <pikhq_> ln -sf /usr/share/America/Los_Angeles /etc/localtime ;# no?
04:05:45 <Fiora> 20:05 < Fiora> yay it worked
04:06:06 <elliott> pikhq_: i doubt it is /usr/share/America
04:06:17 <elliott> but yes [something] = America/Los_Angeles in my line I think
04:06:27 <elliott> also you might have to reboot for this to work or at least restart programs you care about
04:06:36 <Fiora> IRSSI seems to have taken instantly!
04:07:24 <elliott> this calls for celebration. should welcome some pepole
04:08:08 <kmc> on debian: dpkg-reconfigure tzdata
04:08:27 <Fiora> I'm using an amazon micro instance so I'm stuck with yum
04:08:42 <Fiora> but it worked so I'm not going to fuss with it anymore
04:08:52 <kmc> i am irssi'ing from an ubuntu server ec2 micro instance right now
04:09:00 <kmc> i wonder why you got stuck with fedora
04:09:27 <Fiora> the free tier on amazon only let you use their install I think?
04:09:32 <Fiora> at least it was when I set this thing up
04:09:37 <Fiora> but I might be wrong
04:09:41 <elliott> do EC2 instances cost reasonable amounts of money yet
04:09:46 <kmc> i think that has changed
04:09:51 <kmc> elliott: my micro instance is free for a year :D
04:09:54 <kmc> but in general 'no'
04:10:03 <kmc> i mean it is reasonable if you actually need fancy dynamic scaling
04:10:05 <Fiora> I just use my free micro as an IRC bouncer thing for my irssi
04:10:07 <kmc> i think it's a reasonable fee for that
04:10:24 <kmc> most of their users are not that, they're just startups with too much money who don't think of traditional dedicated hosting
04:10:48 <kmc> i run irssi on ec2 and connect to it with mosh
04:10:50 <kmc> it's pretty sweet
04:11:19 <kmc> http://mosh.mit.edu/
04:11:35 <Fiora> is there a windows client? I use putty right now
04:11:35 <elliott> kmc: how much are the mosh people paying you
04:11:40 <kmc> elliott: nothing
04:11:47 <kmc> i have done some development for mosh though
04:11:48 <elliott> kmc: you should get a raise!!
04:11:52 <kmc> it's just an open source project at mit
04:11:53 <kmc> i know rite
04:11:59 <kmc> Fiora: there is an experimental cygwin port
04:12:33 <Fiora> oh wow, they actually have it inside the cygwin packagemanager
04:12:56 <kmc> cygwin is not the most elegant solution here but nobody has really come forward to do the work for a native windows port
04:13:01 <Fiora> oh, now it's deciding it has to upgrade my entire cygwin installation
04:13:08 <Fiora> probably good to do that anyways.
04:13:29 <Fiora> um, I'm guessing I'd have to install a server on my amazon ec2 instance?
04:13:54 <kmc> yeah it's in fedora
04:13:58 <kmc> you just install the mosh package on the server
04:14:03 <Fiora> >No package mosh available.
04:14:07 <kmc> oh, might be too old
04:14:25 <elliott> at least it's fairly easy to compile mosh yourself
04:14:29 <elliott> since you don't need to set up a daemon or anything
04:14:34 <kmc> yeah the dependencies should be in fedora
04:15:09 <kmc> hey cool netbsd is on there now
04:16:18 -!- ogrom has joined.
04:16:40 <Fiora> oh no it doesn't have protobuf either :<
04:17:03 <Fiora> agh wildly following dependency chains manually
04:17:11 <kmc> that's odd
04:17:38 <Fiora> configure: error: C++ preprocessor "/lib/cpp" fails sanity check
04:18:12 <elliott> do you not have a compiler toolchain installed or something
04:18:19 <Fiora> .... oh. I had gcc but not g++
04:18:24 <Fiora> and nothing had needed g++ yet so I didn't notice
04:18:36 <Fiora> and the configure script somehow got past that check without noticing it was missing I think <_<
04:19:02 <elliott> kmc: nice rant on the mosh issue tracker "I tried using Mosh for the connection persistence, and nothing I read prior to using it gave me a clear indication that it was anything but an ordinary shell with an improved transport. When Mosh discarded some important output I had no idea what was going on, and I wasted a few days (calendar time, several hours actual troubleshooting time) looking at everything else because it didn't occur to me that a
04:19:02 <elliott> tool for persistent connections and better latency would also throw away my data. After that, I can't trust you, not because the way Mosh works is unreasonable, but because the way it is described fails to convey that you can't count on receiving the complete output of any command."
04:19:06 <Fiora> yuuuup that was it
04:19:09 <elliott> (they are complaining because mosh doesn't have scrollback)
04:19:30 <Fiora> okay now to compile on a 1-core 1ghz virtual server thing -_-
04:19:57 -!- Jafet1 has changed nick to Jafet.
04:20:10 <elliott> Fiora: hey i'm using a 1.33 ghz laptop thing
04:20:36 <elliott> i think it would honestly be faster to compile some things by scping them over to my server
04:20:37 <Fiora> I'm spoiled with my laptop okay >_>
04:20:40 <elliott> and then downloading the binaries
04:20:46 <Jafet> There is memory that's faster than that CPU
04:20:56 <Fiora> Yeah, I had that experience once when I had to play with an, um... I think it was a 600mhz arm
04:21:02 <kmc> yeah i saw that
04:21:18 <pikhq_> Jafet: The memory bus speed might be 1.33GHz, but the RAM's internal clock is at 200MHz.
04:21:25 <pikhq_> As has been the norm for a decade now.
04:22:32 <Fiora> it just feels weird to like, compile on something 20 times slower than my computer
04:23:21 <pikhq_> Try using qemu sometime.
04:24:13 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
04:24:58 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left).
04:25:07 <shachaf> I didn't think they used that anywhere, this time of year.
04:25:15 <pikhq_> shachaf: America/Los_Angeles . :)
04:25:30 <pikhq_> zoneinfo time zone naming is so much better.
04:25:30 <Fiora> okay PST I guess ^^;;
04:25:32 <Fiora> I always forget which is which
04:25:36 <shachaf> That's the time zone to be in!
04:25:42 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Mon Nov 19 20:25:39 2012
04:25:51 <lambdabot> Local time for Fiora is Mon Nov 19 20:25:46 2012
04:26:00 <Bike> does it just use dcc, or what
04:26:02 <shachaf> Fiora: Hmm, looks like you're 7 seconds ahead of me.
04:26:08 <Fiora> the message came later
04:26:09 * pikhq_ lives basically on the MST meridian!
04:26:16 <lambdabot> Local time for pikhq_ is Mon Nov 19 21:26:12 2012
04:26:27 <Fiora> I think the 7 seconds is just the gap between them...?
04:26:30 <elliott> i don't really like zoneinfo naming
04:26:34 <elliott> singles out single areas weirdly
04:26:35 <Bike> i believe that is The Joke, fiora.
04:26:52 <pikhq_> elliott: It's saner than any other timezone naming scheme I've seen though.
04:26:54 <elliott> have you noticed your eyes are pointing away from each other
04:27:06 <elliott> pikhq_: well UTC+n and UTC-n are pretty good
04:27:08 <pikhq_> Other than, of course, constant offsets from UTC, but that requires saner *time zones* in the first place.
04:27:12 <shachaf> Bike: Are you also in PST?
04:27:22 <shachaf> San Francisco is The Place To Be, as you know.
04:27:35 <pikhq_> elliott: Doesn't tell enough *at all*.
04:27:49 <Bike> shachaf: rather far from LA, but yes
04:27:55 <shachaf> elliott: hi should foo :: Fol.Foldable f => f a -> [a]; foo = ($ []) . appEndo . Fol.foldMap (\x -> Endo (x:)) be a function
04:28:26 <shachaf> Assuming you mean Los Angeles.
04:28:27 <Bike> what's appEndo? applicative endomorphism
04:28:28 <pikhq_> elliott: To give you an idea: the state of Indiana has *11* different zoneinfo entries.
04:28:33 <elliott> yeah but indiana doesn't exist
04:28:39 <monqy> shachaf i need some "lens help"
04:28:49 <elliott> Bike: newtype Endo a = Endo { appEndo :: a -> a }
04:28:52 <monqy> im sory i cant go through with this joke
04:28:55 <elliott> i.e. appEndo :: Endo a -> (a -> a)
04:28:59 <Bike> I wonder if laos has ever been called LA in the history of the universe
04:28:59 <monqy> elliott can you finish it
04:29:03 <monqy> deliver the punchline
04:29:22 <elliott> Bike: well laos is .la isn't it
04:29:25 <elliott> and that tld is used for los angeles!
04:29:39 <shachaf> Fiora: help what are you doing in laos
04:29:54 <Fiora> I'm south of LA, not in laos
04:29:55 <monqy> the delivery is wack
04:30:05 <Bike> I kind of instintively hate cctlds though, so I refuse to acknowledge their existence, sorry about that
04:30:28 <Bike> i think i've been in LA a couple times, roasting on the asphalt gridlock probably
04:30:31 <zzo38> I don't like daylight saving time. Also, the time zones is not designed best but I don't know what is best. One way is using precise time zones using same hours/minutes/second as the angle.
04:30:54 <shachaf> zzo38 has a plan to redesign time zones?
04:31:01 <shachaf> elliott: "took me by surprise"
04:31:14 <zzo38> (When the (sidereal) hour is angle, 1 hour = 15 degrees, which is used to measure right ascensions and hour angles.)
04:31:22 <monqy> elliott: but how!!!
04:31:26 <zzo38> However, solar time is not exactly like UTC it is only by average.
04:31:30 <shachaf> monqy: use "your creativity"
04:31:31 <monqy> shachaf: can you do it for me
04:31:54 <shachaf> there comes a time in every monqys life
04:32:01 <shachaf> when that monqy must finish their own jokes
04:32:21 <elliott> monqy: for once in my life i'm gonna have to agree with shachaf
04:32:31 <monqy> shachaf: im sorry its up to you now. search for "the joke" on the Lens documentation at http://tedlab.mit.edu/~dr/Lens/ using the Lens documention's Search It feature
04:32:49 <zzo38> Actually I don't have plan to redesign time zones. I just have some ideas having to do with time zones.
04:32:57 <shachaf> monqy: help whats a search.php
04:33:11 <monqy> shachaf: surprise you got joked
04:33:23 <monqy> imo look at search.php's contents
04:33:28 <elliott> monqy: that was a pretty bad delivery monqy
04:33:31 <monqy> "it includes the shell command executed to do the search"
04:33:33 <elliott> you screwed up your one chance to make that joke
04:33:44 <kmc> phphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphphp
04:33:44 <monqy> elliott: i told you i couldnt do it!!!!
04:33:50 <elliott> monqy: you didn't even include the fact that you are personally using lens currently!!
04:33:57 <elliott> im sorry monqy its just not good enough
04:33:59 <monqy> shachaf: the joke is im using this thing
04:34:00 <Bike> it... downloads the php
04:34:09 <kmc> ρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρηρη
04:34:29 <elliott> monqy: its not optional. this is your penance
04:34:41 <monqy> may i asked to be kicked
04:34:44 <monqy> it's what shachaf would do
04:34:47 <monqy> and you agree with shachaf right
04:35:50 <shachaf> monqy: i dont want to get kicked!!
04:35:55 <monqy> elliott: you disagree with shachaf right
04:35:56 <shachaf> dont "spread rumours" monqy
04:36:44 <shachaf> elliott: "i really cant figure out this lens issue"
04:37:02 <monqy> elliott: ooh ooh can i make the joke now
04:37:04 <shachaf> elliott: "maybe its because i spend all my time complaining about it instead of thinking about it"
04:37:24 <monqy> search the lens document for "the issue". i am using this software.
04:37:29 <monqy> elliott: did i do it good
04:37:38 <elliott> leave before you embarrass yourself further
04:37:50 <shachaf> monqy: we all love you monqy
04:38:12 <monqy> make me not tolerate it!!!!
04:38:31 <shachaf> copumpkin: "should i read that book"
04:39:20 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
04:40:00 <shachaf> Hawaii did experiment with DST for three weeks between April 30, 1933 and May 21, 1933; there is no known official record as to why it was implemented or discontinued.[18][unreliable source?] Hawaii has never observed daylight saving time under the Uniform Time Act, having opted out of the Act's provisions in 1967.[19]
04:40:03 <elliott> @tell monqy you can come back now
04:41:37 <Fiora> um, kmc, I installed protobuf from source (just configure and sudo make install...?) but mosh says it can't find it
04:41:49 <Fiora> "package protobuf was not found in the pkg-config search path"
04:43:19 <shachaf> Fiora: What distribution-thing are you using?
04:43:33 <Fiora> it's the amazon ec2 fedora thing
04:43:53 * shachaf randomly wonders whether `ldconfig` will fix it.
04:44:02 <shachaf> Maybe it's an issue of paths and /usr/local/?
04:44:10 <shachaf> Why not install protobuf from a package?
04:44:19 <Fiora> because the system doesn't seem to have it as a package :<
04:44:19 <tswett> RHR Hypertext... Rearranger?
04:45:41 <Fiora> I guess I can try rebuilding it and stuffing it in /usr...
04:46:12 * shachaf doesn't know how pkg-config finds things.
04:46:21 <Fiora> I have no idea either >_<
04:46:27 <elliott> PKG_CONFIG_PATH or something
04:46:32 <lambdabot> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/acls/name/protobuf
04:46:43 <elliott> apparently it is PKG_CONFIG_PATH
04:47:00 <Fiora> sudo yum install protobuf
04:47:00 <Fiora> Loaded plugins: fastestmirror, priorities, security, update-motd, upgrade-helper
04:47:03 <elliott> also did i actually just get monqy to leave
04:47:04 <Fiora> Loading mirror speeds from cached hostfile * amzn-main: packages.us-east-1.amazonaws.com
04:47:06 <elliott> i didn't want to do that!!
04:47:07 <Fiora> * amzn-updates: packages.us-east-1.amazonaws.com
04:47:10 <Fiora> Setting up Install Process
04:47:12 <Fiora> No package protobuf available.
04:47:12 <shachaf> elliott: "ok but what if that variable is unset"
04:47:24 <shachaf> Maybe it's protobuf-devel or something.
04:47:36 <Fiora> search finds no matches
04:47:57 <Fiora> sorry... bleh I will just keep using putty I guess, this is a hassle
04:48:07 <shachaf> Fiora: Maybe #mosh would know.
04:48:15 <elliott> well man pkg-config documents what it does when the path isn't empty
04:48:53 * Fiora goes back to playing civ and reading wikipedia articles on nuclear isomers
04:50:53 <shachaf> Fiora: You should learn about lenses instead!
04:51:07 <shachaf> "lenses: the nuclear isomers of the 21st century??"
04:51:08 <Sgeo> Oh, I forgot to list my list
04:51:25 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy isn't here, coppro except I think you're not on the list. List.
04:51:30 <Fiora> maybe metameterial lenses? those sound kind of cool I think
04:51:45 <elliott> Sgeo: monqy explicitly told you to add Fiora to the list!!
04:51:48 <Bike> they make lenses out of metamaterials now, huh
04:52:00 <Sgeo> Fiora, do you want to be on the list?
04:52:01 <shachaf> Sgeo: Fiora does not wish to be on the list!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
04:52:06 <Fiora> what is "the list"? >_<
04:52:11 <Fiora> everyone keeps talking about it but I don't know what it is
04:52:20 <Sgeo> Someone should explain
04:52:36 <shachaf> Fiora: You wan't to be on the list.
04:52:39 <elliott> no i think it is better that way
04:52:43 <shachaf> (That's a contraction for "want not".)
04:52:51 <Fiora> this channel is confusing ;-;
04:53:15 <Sgeo> I'm going to break down in 2 minutes and explain it privately
04:53:23 <shachaf> Sgeo: Wait, what *is* the list?
04:53:37 <shachaf> Is it just Homestuck updates or what?
04:53:40 <Sgeo> Just noticed Fiora with the explanation
04:53:49 <shachaf> Sgeo: help i never got an explanation
04:53:50 <elliott> brimstone rains from the sky
04:53:57 <elliott> the truth of The List comes to torture us
04:54:09 <Fiora> Sgeo: ohhh!! put me on the list then
04:54:13 <Fiora> that sounds super useful
04:54:18 <elliott> all die in an endless fire of suffering
04:54:38 <Bike> perhaps you could make a list of ways the truth of The List will come to torture us, elliott.
04:54:58 <Sgeo> It's funnier to leave shachaf out of the loop. Although cruel. But funny.
04:55:07 <elliott> is my List not good enough
04:55:15 <Bike> wait is it a list or a List
04:55:25 <Fiora> does it implement the List interface?
04:55:38 <Bike> i dunno, but there is a difference, so it's probably important
04:55:44 <shachaf> Fiora: help are you java :'(
04:55:52 <Fiora> um, I know a little java but I don't use it much
04:56:03 <shachaf> you should use Real Languages
04:56:15 <Fiora> um..... do C and x86 assembly count?
04:56:23 <elliott> the only Real Language is TECO
04:56:31 <shachaf> Fiora: or you can use esolangs
04:56:31 <Bike> you're not nearly swaggerly enough to be a Real Programmer, fiora. sorry.
04:56:41 <Sgeo> The only real language is @
04:56:44 <Fiora> I ama fake programmer then
04:57:03 <Bike> complex numbers joke here
04:57:07 <Sgeo> elliott, it is if I rotate it 90 degrees!
04:57:13 * Fiora scribbles assembly opcodes on Bike's sleeve
04:57:21 <elliott> that's a bad place to put opcodes
04:57:33 <shachaf> Fiora: lets have a low level programming contest
04:57:38 <shachaf> Fiora: how many bytes do you know
04:57:49 <Bike> how big are these bytes
04:58:02 <Sgeo> What a boring answer.
04:58:16 <shachaf> `addquote <elliott> octets hth
04:58:35 <Sgeo> 0-bit bytes are the best bytes.
04:58:43 <HackEgo> *poof* <elliott> octets hth
04:58:44 <shachaf> `addquote <elliott> `delquote 867
04:58:47 <HackEgo> 868) <elliott> `delquote 867
04:59:16 <Sgeo> `addquote <Sgeo> `delquote 869
04:59:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: deelquote: not found
04:59:34 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
04:59:39 <HackEgo> 866) <Phantom_Hoover> unfortunately df is not yet able to simulate norway
04:59:51 <HackEgo> *poof* <Sgeo> `delquote 869
04:59:59 <shachaf> Fiora: "wait one moment did i know you from another channel once"
05:00:05 <Bike> I had no idea a quotation system could be this confusing.
05:00:08 <Jafet> `addquote <Jafet> `addquote <Jafet> `addquote 867
05:00:12 <HackEgo> 867) <Jafet> `addquote <Jafet> `addquote 867
05:00:16 <Bike> good job, hackego engineering. good job
05:00:17 <HackEgo> *poof* <Jafet> `addquote <Jafet> `addquote 867
05:00:20 <shachaf> Fiora: "are you from new zealand"
05:00:29 <Sgeo> `addquote <elliott> `delquote 867
05:00:32 <HackEgo> 867) <elliott> `delquote 867
05:00:40 <Fiora> um, no, I am from southern california
05:00:57 <shachaf> I once knew someone in another channel whose nick started with F who lived in southern California.
05:01:06 <HackEgo> *poof* <elliott> `delquote 867
05:01:06 <shachaf> But moved there from New Zealand or something?
05:01:20 <Fiora> I was born here...
05:01:38 <Sgeo> `addquote <elliott> Sgeo: can you stop
05:01:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: addquote: not found
05:01:47 <shachaf> Sgeo: Stop it. It's annoying.
05:01:54 <shachaf> But now I live in southern northern California!
05:02:23 <elliott> Sgeo: is the point just to annoy me or whatever
05:02:27 <elliott> because shachaf already does that a lot better
05:02:31 <Sgeo> But that was a fake addquote
05:02:40 <Sgeo> I didn't think a fake addquote would be annoying
05:02:46 -!- Jafet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:02:59 <shachaf> elliott: Hey, I thought I stopped the annoying thing!
05:03:08 -!- Jafet has joined.
05:03:44 <elliott> the real question: what is annoying
05:03:58 <elliott> @ is an anaconda that curled itself up
05:04:24 <Jafet> Is it related to python or ASP?
05:06:14 <shachaf> kmc: I don't have any backups.
05:06:19 <kmc> beyond 1984, beyond 2001, beyond love, beyond death: @
05:06:21 <shachaf> Should I get an external hard drive and back up to it?
05:06:46 <kmc> you should get an internal soft ride or front down from it
05:06:59 <kmc> that said, yes
05:07:21 <elliott> @ would make a pretty good novel IMO
05:07:27 <shachaf> Should I get an external hard drive or an internal hard drive + a box to put a hard drive in?
05:08:25 <kmc> don't have a strong opinion
05:08:26 <shachaf> Hmm, prices have gone down to pre-flood levels.
05:08:30 <kmc> i usually do the latter
05:08:40 <kmc> but that's more because i have one or the other part lying around already
05:09:39 <shachaf> Maybe I should use my $50 Tarsnap credit.
05:15:16 <Fiora> "Maybe that clown could have helped you understand what you're supposed to do in this empty wasteland, but no, you had better ideas. And all of them were bullets." caliborning
05:17:13 <Fiora> I think homestuck is going to collapse from the weight of its own meta
05:35:42 <kmc> http://www.ikea.com/ca/en/catalog/products/00112432/
05:38:13 <Gregor> kmc: http://www.ikea.com/ca/en/catalog/products/10193197/
05:40:27 <Sgeo> What's so interesting about the pasta?
05:40:57 <Bike> it is elk-shaped, to remind you of home.
05:41:17 * Sgeo is currently eating pasta
05:41:33 <kmc> Gregor: haha
05:41:37 <kmc> Sgeo: gross
05:41:56 <kmc> Gregor: it suggests i buy it with a "KOLON floor protector"
05:42:15 <Sgeo> There is no parmesan cheese. I require parmesan cheese. In the absense of parmesan cheese I use ketchup
05:42:26 <kmc> that is gross and terrible and bad and you should feel bad
05:43:04 <Sgeo> I actually tend to eat more when eating it with ketchup
05:43:13 <Gregor> “In the absense of parmesan cheese I use ketchup”
05:43:23 <Bike> yeah how does that even make sense
05:43:25 <Sgeo> But mixing ketchup and parmesan cheese is gross, I've tried it.
05:43:29 <Bike> is ketchup a cheese now
05:43:44 <Sgeo> Bike, it's a foodstuff that adds some calories and nutrients.
05:43:48 <pikhq_> Gregor: Trust me, that's not just your fnarf.
05:43:56 <Sgeo> And makes it taste better.
05:44:03 <Bike> I don't have any parmesan cheese, so in the absence of parmesan cheese I dump chocolate on it
05:44:25 <Sgeo> What's so bad about pasta+ketchup?
05:44:57 <Bike> as of vatican ii it's a valid basis for excommunication, for one
05:45:34 <kmc> as was set forth in the famous papal bull "De ketchup nongustabilis"
05:47:02 <Gregor> Sgeo: That seems like the kind of thing people would eat in the great depression.
05:47:10 <kmc> some heretic sects were using ketchup and pasta instead of wine and bread for the sacrament of the eucharist
05:48:08 <kmc> some friends of mine had a bet to see who could last the longest eating only free condiments from the uni dining hall
05:49:23 <ion> I hope Distance gets enough votes in Greenlight. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=103111305
05:49:41 <Sgeo> I think I like ketchup+pasta more than parmesan cheese+pasta, but parmesan cheese is probably healthier
05:54:14 <Sgeo> Normal people eat pasta + tomato sauce, right? What's the difference between tomato sauce and ketchup?
05:54:52 <pikhq_> Ketchup is spiced much differently, cooked to a different consistency, much more vinegary, and has lots of sugar.
05:55:52 <kmc> it's weird that i didn't notice how sweet ketchup is until someone pointed it out to me
05:56:12 <kmc> it's vinegar syrup with a slight tomato theme
05:56:29 <pikhq_> It's a sweet and sour sauce.
05:56:43 <kmc> hm, i hadn't thought of that, but yes
05:56:44 <Sgeo> So that's good. I don't particularly like tomatos, except as part of pizza.
05:57:07 <kmc> Sgeo: seriously though, if you like it, eat it, don't let us tell you that it's gross even though it is
05:57:18 <kmc> taste is so arbitrary
05:57:26 <Bike> (it is still really gross though)
05:57:47 <Sgeo> When I get more parmesan cheese I'll start using that again
05:58:01 <Sgeo> Although parmesan cheese is really only really really good with shell-shaped pasta
05:58:12 <kmc> why is that
05:58:18 <Sgeo> (There's a nostalgia factor at work here)
05:58:33 <shachaf> kmc: you know what else is sweet?!
05:58:53 <Sgeo> In.. pre-k? Kindergarten? We had a bunch of foods with some themes and one of them was "sand and shells"
05:58:53 <shachaf> (the point is, balsamic vinegar)
05:58:58 <lambdabot> edwardk says: <edwardk> is there a haskell client for the quantum random bit generator service? <edwardk> i was joking that i tend to flip coins as to which project i work on that way at least in
05:58:58 <lambdabot> some universe there is probably a me working on the more interesting one, but it strikes me that it would be nicer to actually have that coin flip hinge on a simpler quantum event
05:59:04 <Sgeo> Later on, I had my mom make some for me, and I liked it
05:59:14 <Bike> is that thing still up?
05:59:17 <Sgeo> So, that's kind of how pasta+parmesan cheese became a staple food for me
05:59:35 <elliott> http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/ apparently
06:00:20 <Bike> i wonder how many angry emails about what "random" _really_ means they get.
06:03:48 <zzo38> I prefer pasta with both tomato sauce and parmesan cheese.
06:13:30 <Sgeo> I finish more of my pasta when I put ketchup on it
06:13:40 <Sgeo> Don't know if that really means I prefer ketchup+pasta or not
06:17:27 <elliott> hey kmc should i go to sleep
06:20:38 <Sgeo> Sleep is as optional as food.
06:20:51 <Sgeo> (For some reason, you saying "Food is not optional" is stuck in my mind)
06:21:07 <kmc> flip a coin
06:21:31 <shachaf> elliott: which one was 2 again
06:21:40 <shachaf> now we have to flip a coin for which one 2 meant
06:22:47 <Sgeo> I'm not drunk, I don't know why I've been acting weird
06:26:35 <zzo38> I have played Dungeons&Dragons game today. I am recording it at this time.
06:30:04 <zzo38> Are you weird in general?
06:43:46 <zzo38> Some audio chips interleave the channel output instead of mixed. There are also some with nonlinear mixing. Such thing may be use in musics made with Csound and so on for special effects?
07:04:04 <zzo38> Another special effect I may want to use is posterize, and perhaps, solarize. These thing could be done probably with UDO or with plugins.
07:05:13 <zzo38> Could be any musics with Proce esolang?
07:24:03 <FireFly> I'm wearing the same shirt ANdy is. I feel 300 times more awesome now.
07:24:19 <FireFly> (that was an accidental middle-click)
07:25:28 <HackEgo> 17) <FireFly> Meh <FireFly> ._. \ 62) * oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----### <FireFly> Meh * FireFly dies
07:25:52 <shachaf> FireFly: How long have you been around here?
07:26:20 <FireFly> I don't remember, but not *that* long, I don't think
07:27:24 <FireFly> My first edit on the wiki was 19 dec 2008
07:28:37 <fizzie> [2009-01-10 23:41:13] ... FireFly [n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se] has joined #esoteric
07:28:45 <fizzie> (Though my logs do have gaps.)
07:29:32 <FireFly> That's hardly long compared to the age of the channel though
07:29:48 <shachaf> hardly long compared to the age of the UNIVERSE!!!!!!
07:29:57 <shachaf> elliott: "oops i just got FireFly"
07:30:27 <fizzie> [2008-06-21 23:41:06] ... shachaf [n=shachaf@66.17.178.32] has joined #esoteric
07:31:36 <fizzie> Then you did not say anything and disappeared at some point during June 2008, since there are no more mentions pre-2011-01-04.
07:35:06 <fizzie> That's what my logs look like, at least.
07:35:14 <fizzie> Or, wait, I had a | head in there.
07:35:38 <fizzie> Well, that explains why it ended so abruptly.
07:36:10 <elliott> did shachaf say things in 2008
07:36:10 <fizzie> Even without the | head I don't see any actual comments.
07:36:16 <fizzie> [2008-06-27 20:03:07] < tusho> AAA_AAA ais523 AnMaster atsampson augur bsmntbombdood cctoide cherez clog Corun Deewiant Dewi fizzie ihope Ilari jamesstanley Judofyr lament lifthras1ir mtve oklopol Polar puzzlet RodgerTheGreat sebbu sekhmet Sgeo shachaf SimonRC Slereah_ timotiis tusho
07:36:22 <fizzie> [2008-09-04 09:19:48] ... shachaf [n=shachaf@66.17.178.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
07:36:30 <fizzie> There are several other joins and parts and netsplits.
07:36:34 <shachaf> those are secret ip addresses
07:36:54 <fizzie> Your computer is broadcasting an IP address!
07:41:10 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FKGWFoIjvw
07:42:08 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
08:07:49 -!- nooga has joined.
08:09:34 -!- Jafet has joined.
08:09:44 <zzo38> I managed to scry the king now I know his favorite color!
08:11:44 <zzo38> No. I wrote it in "level20.tex" file recording this Dungeons&Dragons game, and I found out, it is purple.
08:12:00 <zzo38> Not because the king said so, but because the royal wizard said so.
08:12:14 <fizzie> "256 shades of gray", a book about the encoding of grayscale JPEG images.
08:12:36 <shachaf> zzo38: are you the royal wizard
08:12:38 <zzo38> In order to confirm, if it is who it says it is, when I used a psychic communication link, but he doesn't know me so we have to ask wizard in that way.
08:14:56 -!- monqy has joined.
08:15:15 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
08:16:32 <HackEgo> monqy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
08:17:05 <zzo38> shachaf: You see in the recording story file, who it is! Even I don't know their name, though.
08:17:52 <shachaf> FireFly: I bet you feel like figuring out taking for me.
08:18:26 <fizzie> What does the #esoteric "welcome bag" contain?
08:19:01 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: leaving).
08:21:20 <monqy> my welcome bag was being asked what my purpose here was......................................this was when i first(second?(third?)) joined
08:21:34 <lambdabot> Applicative f => Int -> SimpleLensLike (Control.Lens.Internal.Indexing f) s a -> SimpleLensLike f s a
08:21:49 <FireFly> I should read up on these fancy lens things some day
08:22:05 <shachaf> Fiora: Do you use Haskell?
08:22:17 * FireFly pays attention to the lecture instead
08:22:22 <lambdabot> Local time for FireFly is Tue, 20 Nov 2012 09:22:22 +0100
08:23:15 <Fiora> shachaf: one of my programming classes in college used it and I wrote some things in it (like a simple compiler and some stuff?) but I'm really not that good at it
08:23:26 <HackEgo> monqy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
08:23:27 <elliott> monqy: just in case you didn't feel welcome after ~2 yeras.
08:23:40 <shachaf> elliott: btw i've never been `welcomed
08:23:45 <shachaf> imo elliott should `welcome me
08:23:57 <elliott> no i think the current state of shachaf never having been `welcomed is perfect
08:24:42 <shachaf> monqy: should elliott welcome me
08:25:05 <monqy> do you really need welcoming
08:25:24 <monqy> alt. do you really need welcoming
08:25:30 <monqy> alt. do you really need welcoming
08:25:44 <shachaf> monqy: yes to the first and third one
08:26:06 <monqy> there are 2 more but "i'm sure you can figure them out"
08:26:41 <shachaf> alt. do you really need welcoming
08:26:46 -!- intok has joined.
08:27:01 <shachaf> monqy: you forgot some more
08:27:10 <shachaf> like do you really need welcoming
08:27:10 <Fiora> shachaf: I did think it was really interesting though, I loved the typing and type inference and stuff
08:27:18 <shachaf> alt. do you really need welcoming
08:27:23 <shachaf> alt. do you really need welcoming
08:27:54 <shachaf> Want a Haskell puzzle that I can't figure out?
08:27:55 <monqy> it is too many and overwhelming :'(
08:27:59 <shachaf> Note: No one else is figuring it out either.
08:28:09 -!- aloril_ has joined.
08:28:15 <elliott> shachaf is just trying to get you to do work for free
08:28:23 <Fiora> really I don't think I'd have any hope here, I haven't used the language in like 2 years ^^;;
08:28:26 <shachaf> Fiora: ill pay you in eternal gratitude
08:28:27 <monqy> btw is Fiora on Sgeo's list yet
08:28:40 <shachaf> Fiora: You want eternal gratitude, right?
08:28:56 <shachaf> (Eternal gratitude expires in 12 months unless you earn more gratitude.)
08:29:29 <shachaf> (earning my gratitude is easy!)
08:30:08 <shachaf> Fiora: did you know this channel evaluates haskell
08:30:19 <elliott> monqy: sgeo explained the list to fiora.
08:30:19 <shachaf> > let fibs = 1 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs)
08:30:21 <shachaf> > let fibs = 1 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in fibs
08:30:21 <lambdabot> not an expression: `let fibs = 1 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs)'
08:30:23 <lambdabot> [1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,1...
08:32:09 <HackEgo> elliott: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
08:33:49 <Fiora> shachaf: um, I think I saw people using it like that earlier
08:34:50 <Fiora> I don't think I can solve haskell puzzles though especially if nobody else can
08:36:40 <monqy> it's not a puzzle it's just a stupid thing shachaf asks people to do and we ignore him
08:36:55 <monqy> im sure it's interesting if you're into that sort of stuff but
08:37:06 <monqy> i dont really feel like lenses right now. i feel like Lens
08:37:28 <Sgeo> shachaf, does it have to be in Haskell?
08:37:31 <Sgeo> :innocentface:
08:37:47 <shachaf> Sgeo: If you can manage to solve it not in Haskell, I'll be surprised.
08:37:51 <shachaf> It has to do with types and things.
08:39:15 <elliott> but clojure is the perfect language of the month now
08:39:42 <elliott> truly a perfect langauge is like a computable set of axioms that uniquely defines the natural numbers
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09:45:58 <oklofok> i have a math puzzle i can't solve
09:46:05 <oklofok> note: no one else is figuring it out either.
09:47:03 <oklofok> i'd be pretty surprised if you were able to solve it not with math
09:47:10 <oklofok> it has to do with numbers and stuff.
09:47:45 <oklofok> or topology and zorn's lemma and cantor-bendixon derivatives and stuff, but i hear everything is numb3rs.
09:48:49 <oklofok> 01010110101010100100101010101010100
09:48:52 <oklofok> 010101101010101000101010101111
09:48:56 <oklofok> 010100010100101010101010101000101011
09:49:06 <oklofok> 101010100101010101010010101010111001110001010111
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10:49:05 <HackEgo> Phantom_Hoover: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
10:49:37 <shachaf> "welcome to bfderivativecentral"
10:49:43 <Phantom_Hoover> i invented a language, does anyone want to help me imrpove it
10:50:05 <shachaf> does it involve bricks or brains
10:52:22 <HackEgo> 766) <monqy> Sgeo: I used to have strict requirements for when I said hi but then everyone started saying hi and it all got weird
10:52:29 <HackEgo> 767) <Ngevd> I don't know which version of Linux kernel I'm using atm <Ngevd> Hang on <Ngevd> I'm on Windows
10:52:33 <HackEgo> 866) <Phantom_Hoover> unfortunately df is not yet able to simulate norway
10:53:06 <oklofok> one of them is an impostor and you have to figure out which
10:53:21 <shachaf> oklofok: I remember that movie!
10:53:36 <oklofok> there should be a molydeux-type twitter feed with esolang ideas.
10:54:29 <oklofok> is the question you want help with whether it should be called mathfuck or brainmath or brainmathics or fuckmathics?
10:54:34 <elliott> <oklofok> there should be a molydeux-type twitter feed with esolang ideas.
10:55:07 <Phantom_Hoover> now i'm struggling to work out what to call the loop instructions
10:55:41 <monqy> math has an unsolved problem whereby it is not brainfuck please make math brainfuck
10:55:49 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: are you trying to trick me
10:56:23 <oklofok> fuck you shachaf it was my time to shine
10:57:41 <monqy> shachaf: theres no going bakc
10:57:55 <shachaf> monqy: did you "play psychonauts"
10:58:04 <monqy> i played psychonauts ages ago
10:58:12 <monqy> like a year!!!! but a bit less than that
10:58:26 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: are programs pdfs
10:58:42 <oklofok> but preferably compiled latex yeah
10:59:05 <monqy> shachaf: one of those
10:59:33 <shachaf> monqy: remember the part with the turtle
10:59:45 <oklofok> now, the question is can be publish a math paper that's actually a fuck your mathbrain -fuck program that prints counterexamples to all the theorems.
11:00:53 <elliott> chris pressey but different
11:01:27 <elliott> oklofok: answer to that question: no. since your theorems have counterexamples, peer review would be sure to find the errors in your proofs
11:01:42 <elliott> getting good at this joke thing
11:02:09 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, oh is that because of goedels incompleteness theorems
11:02:46 <oklofok> no it's because of the corollary that humans are superturing because they can do metamath so they can check every proof.
11:05:03 <Phantom_Hoover> i was thinking, it would be cool if someone used it to prove fermats' last theorem?
11:05:52 <Phantom_Hoover> omg is your favourite gedoels incompleteness theorem??
11:06:13 <oklofok> my favorite theorem is perhaps that a countable 2d sft contains a strictly singly periodic point
11:06:19 <shachaf> my favorite theorem is that
11:06:53 <shachaf> there is no computable set of axioms in first-order logic that uniquely defines the natural numbers
11:07:08 <oklofok> (and it's not even my theorem)
11:07:25 <monqy> my favorite theorem is the one where There is no set whose cardinality is strictly between that of the integers and that of the real numbers.
11:08:17 <oklofok> ah, the continuum theorem.
11:08:17 <shachaf> monqy: thats not a theorem monqy!!!
11:09:15 <shachaf> if you have the right axioms
11:09:15 <fizzie> There are theories, theorems and hypotheses; are there also hypothems?
11:09:52 <oklofok> http://drops.dagstuhl.de/opus/volltexte/2008/1334/pdf/22011.BallierAlexis.Paper.1334.pdf here read it
11:10:07 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: yes i can??
11:10:26 <shachaf> axiom 7: these are the right axioms
11:10:52 <oklofok> plus axiom 8 that says 7 is correct, sealing the deal.
11:10:54 <shachaf> let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1
11:11:28 <monqy> what theorem are you proving ?
11:11:29 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: "oopse i just proved fermats last conjecture"
11:11:47 <shachaf> monqy: p. cool "dont you think"
11:12:00 <elliott> <monqy> my favorite theorem is the one where There is no set whose cardinality is strictly between that of the integers and that of the real numbers.
11:12:06 <elliott> thats a ba dtheorem monqy !
11:12:23 <monqy> elliott: how can it be bad if it's my favorite
11:14:32 <shachaf> 03:14 <quicksilver> luite: the GHC programmers are very bad people :-(
11:14:43 <shachaf> elliott: "remember that time you called JaffaCake stupid to his face"
11:15:08 <oklofok> yeah i saw no ellipses in the figures. have a figure now and then asshole, it's common courtesy.
11:17:49 <shachaf> elliott: Grr, this is like doing fusion by hand.
11:18:00 <shachaf> Any ideas for how it should work?
11:18:16 <monqy> is this about Lens
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12:54:16 <FireFly> I don't get "shachaf's quotes"
12:55:44 <FireFly> I also notice that I'm reading lines from approx. 1½ hours ago
12:58:15 <shachaf> FireFly: Fiora is taking your tab completion prefix.
12:58:18 <shachaf> fizzie: Fiora is taking your tab completion prefix.
12:58:31 <shachaf> "are y'all gonna stand for it"
12:58:45 <shachaf> "are y'all gonna take it sitting down?"
12:58:56 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: "yes but no"
12:59:17 <monqy> whoa!!! settle down with those quotes!!!! calm and cool it
12:59:46 <monqy> "you might hurt somebody"
13:06:34 <monqy> sorry all i can see is you being careless w/ quotes and maybe hurting somebody
13:06:55 <monqy> it is a problem only fixable by taking good care and also a chill pill
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13:11:16 <shachaf> monqy: can i buy a chill pill
13:25:10 <shachaf> kmc: Don't you like it when someone comes into #haskell to ask a question about using ghci with their editor and the answers they get are (a) switch to unix (b) hey guys what's the true meaning of unix (c) switch to vim or emacs if you even want to matter as a person?
13:26:28 <monqy> does this happen often
13:27:35 <shachaf> "the cruel world beyond the safe sheltered walls of #esoteric"
13:28:08 <shachaf> now they're talking about The True Meaning of Vim
13:28:16 <shachaf> if you use hjkl are you a good person?
13:28:57 <shachaf> It's sad when the answers the regulars give annoy me more than the annoying newcomers.
13:30:05 <monqy> if I use hjkl am I a bad person ?
13:31:28 <shachaf> <> using hjkl in vim is almost as bad as using the arrow keys
13:31:35 <shachaf> is using the arrow keys bad
13:42:19 <fizzie> I suppose I should change my name to "XYzzie", where XY is chosen as the least likely initial IRC nickname character bigram.
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14:17:16 <FireFly> You could also replace the z's with a letter with lower character code
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15:28:57 <kmc> shachaf: :(
15:29:14 <kmc> did anyone mention yet that IDEs are for JAVA DRONES?
15:30:53 <elliott> "Does the GHC RTS depend on posix? Also, can I somehow tell GHC to use a different RTS, or am I going to have to write my own compiler if I write my own RTS?"
15:31:48 <kmc> this sounds like one of those "world of pain" situations
15:31:59 <kmc> also the answer to the first is nearly obvious from the fact that ghc works on windows
15:32:05 <kmc> excuse me WINBLO$E
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15:50:29 <kmc> ooh https://github.com/toyvo/libpandoc
15:50:56 <kmc> spinning up a GHC RTS inside my CPython process to render some Markdown is totally reasonable right?
15:51:50 <ion> Perhaps you could still involve .NET somehow.
15:52:26 <elliott> kmc: C bindings to Haskell libraries
15:52:31 <elliott> i think this is the true sign haskell has made it
15:53:19 <kmc> 2013 will be the year of haskell on the desktop
15:55:45 <kmc> "The only C implementations of markdown that I know of are Discount and PEG-markdown. Discount seemed a little bit too integrated and focused on HTML output for my taste, and PEG-markdown seemed to have a lot of dependencies and stuff. So I wrote my own."
15:55:49 <kmc> yeah! fuck code reuse!
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16:06:08 <Deewiant> C programmers tend to be all "ew, dependencies, I'll write my own instead"
16:06:24 <kmc> it's a really disappointing situation
16:06:38 <kmc> of course writing your own is how you show off how big your hacker penis is, and that's the best reason to use c for anything
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16:48:25 <elliott> kmc: guys what does in exactly do here et add1 x = x + 1 in map add1 [1,5,7] ? and how can I create function add1 and use it right away?(would be easy if you use javascript as explation)
16:49:14 <kmc> real quote?
16:49:52 <elliott> <elliott> Trudko: you probably want to read a haskell tutorial like learn you a haskell to get to grips with the basics of things like functions and map <[redacted]> elliott: I know what is map and what are functions I dont understand 1. What in is exactly doing iin aboewe example
16:50:01 <elliott> well there goes my one line of effort
16:50:20 <elliott> i only redacted one of the names
16:52:22 <kmc> elliott: will you help me take over a japanese mobile phone operator so that eventually we can have goatse in the Supplementary Multilingual Plane
16:52:58 <elliott> kmc: i think there is literally nothing i have ever aspired to less
16:54:21 <oerjan> never have so few aspired so little to so much
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17:03:22 <kmc> also sigh https://github.com/waylan/Python-Markdown/issues/161
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17:22:50 <ion> kmc: heh, nice
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17:43:54 <ion> http://www.sadanduseless.com/2012/04/lavatory-self-portraits/
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18:02:32 <atriq> Trade Depots can be too close to an edge!?
18:05:04 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, PalaceCrushed now has a legendary miner and no defences
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18:42:03 <Phantom_Hoover> you always think "i should get around to having some defences already" and if you're lck
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19:24:50 <atriq> Hey, I missed the lesson, can anyone tell me the background to the k e^(i * theta) way of expressing a complex number?
19:25:48 <olsner> probably something about euler
19:26:58 <kmc> so you know about polar coordinates for the plane, right?
19:27:15 <FreeFull> So I wrote a C program that quits with a Bus Error when given the input of -1
19:27:41 <kmc> and complex numbers x + yi can be thought of as a point in the plane
19:28:34 <kmc> if you convert that (x,y) to (r,θ) you can represent the number as r(cos(θ) + i sin(θ))
19:28:59 <kmc> and it so happens that cos(θ) + i sin(θ) = e^(i θ)
19:29:21 <kmc> which you can demonstrate by working out the respective power series, i think
19:29:36 <atriq> kmc, you've skipped over the one part I didn't know
19:30:22 <olsner> "what are complex numbers"
19:30:26 <atriq> How to get from cos theta + i sin theta to e ^ (i theta)
19:31:06 <FireFly> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s_formula
19:31:49 <kmc> yes you can prove it using power series
19:32:21 <kmc> you write the power series for e^(iθ) and then shuffle the terms around and pull out a power series for cos(θ) plus one for i sin(θ)
19:32:24 <kmc> i did mention that ;)
19:33:38 <FireFly> I recall I found it informative to plot z and sqrt(z), in the complex plane for some z on the edge of the unit circle
19:33:45 <FireFly> or z and z² for that matter
19:33:58 <kmc> i like this "using calculus" proof as well
19:34:41 <olsner> "using calculus", is that where you just use euler's formula?
19:34:57 <kmc> no that we call proof by induction
19:36:08 <olsner> oh, "Neither of these mathematicians saw the geometrical interpretation of the formula: the view of complex numbers as points in the complex plane arose only some 50 years later (see Caspar Wessel)."
19:40:52 <atriq> Thinking about it, I think I can get it from Maclaurin series
19:42:08 <atriq> Although is that overkill?
19:43:12 <olsner> I think that's one of the standard ways to do it
19:43:35 <olsner> or the taylor series, don't remember what the difference between those are
19:43:45 <atriq> Maclaurin is Taylor at 0
19:44:46 <atriq> Taylor at a is f(a) + f'(a)*(x-a)/1! + f''(a)*(x-a)^2/2! ...
19:44:54 <atriq> Letting a = 0 makes it simpler
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19:58:29 <quintopia> atriq: arent there taylor/maclaurin series that dont converge to their associated function as n->infty
19:58:47 <atriq> quintopia, yes, but not for e, sin, and cos?
19:59:00 <Bike> e sin and cos are holomorphic, so yeah they converge.
20:00:34 <Fiora> what sort of function wouldn't converge?
20:00:53 <Fiora> oh, something that isn't differentiable everywhere?
20:01:04 <atriq> ln (1 + x) for x > 1
20:01:24 <Fiora> "A function that is equal to its Taylor series in an open interval (or a disc in the complex plane) is known as an analytic function."
20:01:27 <Bike> well, you can also have functions that are differentiable everywhere that aren't holomorphic.
20:01:32 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/3/4/734173a08dcfe45fcff058190d4ec0a1.png Wikipedia has an example.
20:01:47 <Bike> er, it's infinitely differentiable at 0, anyhow.
20:02:23 <Fiora> wait, so why doesn't that one work?
20:02:37 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-analytic_smooth_function oh, here we go.
20:02:53 <Bike> because the maclaurin series of it is 0
20:03:35 <Fiora> ohhhh. it's because at zero the taylor series converges to zero...
20:03:54 <Bike> yeah, they're usually kind of pathological.
20:07:32 <Bike> atriq: polar representation of complexes is also useful for using them as rotations and stuff.
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21:07:03 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, Palacecrushed is going very well
21:07:03 <atriq> Except for the fact that the merchants are here and I haven't anything to trade
21:07:03 <atriq> And the path to the trade depot is a bit odd
21:09:58 <atriq> The military is equiped with iron weapons
21:14:09 <atriq> Well, I've missed the merchants
21:18:24 <oklopol> i think pathological may be slightly too strong a word
21:19:37 <oerjan> pathologically logical paths
21:26:19 <Bike> my saying smooth but non-analytic functions are "kind of pathological"
21:29:34 <oklopol> isn't an analytic function from R completely determined by its values on any open set?
21:30:50 <Bike> I thought that only worked in C.
21:31:04 <Fiora> isn't R a subset of C, or...?
21:31:47 <oklopol> well if it's given by a converging series, it seems that you can determine the coefficients by taking derivatives at 0.
21:33:13 <Fiora> there's the issue of functions like the one Bike mentioned though, right? which are analytic but not homomorphic
21:33:40 <Bike> she means holomorphic.
21:33:54 <oklopol> i think i've heard of that
21:34:05 <Bike> it's a synonym for "analytic", usually.
21:34:25 <oklopol> i don't get how being holomorphic has anything to do with this
21:34:36 <Fiora> homomorphic was the condition for whether a taylor series works I think Bike said?
21:34:49 <Fiora> which I think is the same thing as "you can figure it all out from derivatives at one place"
21:35:08 <oklopol> anyhow the reason i think pathological is a bit of a strong word is that if an open set determines an analytic function, pretty much every smooth function you come up with will be non-analytic.
21:35:09 <Bike> well, complex analytic functions are holomorphic, but real analytic functions aren't necessarily, I think.
21:35:35 <oklopol> unless you just directly take some function with a name. they usually have a name because they have nice series representations.
21:35:49 <Bike> oklopol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_function#Pathological_functions poincaré is more what I mean
21:36:15 <oklopol> that is somewhat pathological
21:36:18 <Bike> so, yeah, that. most functions are non-analytic and smooth probably, but they're still subjectively weird
21:36:20 <Fiora> oh god that function
21:36:24 <oklopol> the example of an analytic non-smooth function was not.
21:36:47 <oklopol> well i guess that may be a bit subjective
21:36:57 <oklopol> i was thinking of exactly the weierstrass function for comparison btw
21:37:57 <oklopol> also saying "most" here is a bit dangerous since often "a measure one subset of" B will be non-A where A is a subset of B, but actually it's very hard to find an element in B \ A.
21:38:14 <Bike> i suppose I could come up with a more rigorous "pathological" based on only allowing compositions of standard functions or something, but that'd be pretty pointless and I'm not good enough at real analysis to know what I'm saying anyway
21:38:38 <Fiora> and I haven't done analysis stuff like this in... gosh too many years <_>
21:38:59 <oklopol> i took a few analysis courses like 4 years ago
21:40:00 <oklopol> "so we have these couple of functions that interested ancient mathematicians and are useful in all sortsa fields but we already know everything about them so you students can just fuck yourselves and listen."
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21:41:54 <Fiora> complex analysis was fun though I think it was like 90% cauchy
21:43:01 <Bike> i'm looking forward to understanding how the fuck analytic combinatorics works, since apparently you can work out combinatoric values through complex analysis
21:46:12 <Bike> unfortunately i'm pretty bad at both so combining them is hazardous for me
21:46:19 <oklopol> i hope to at least do some ordinary combinatorics at some point, like graphs or something
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21:47:24 <oklopol> but dunno, finite things are so complicated
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21:47:46 <oklopol> then again people are doing so much graph stuff it must be like ridiculously easy.
21:48:09 <oklopol> at least coming up with problems is easy
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22:04:56 <kmc> http://timetobleed.com/6-line-eventmachine-bugfix-2x-faster-gc-1300-requestssec/ conservative gc: still a bad idea
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22:07:59 <olsner> "... that Ruby thread gets an entire copy of the existing stack. Each time that thread is switched into and out of, that thread stack has to be memcpy’d into and out of place."
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23:40:42 <Sgeo> Fiora, monqy coppro tswett although not formally on list I think. LIST
23:44:15 <coppro> I do not take part in your list
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00:07:39 <kmc> shachaf: lenovo cancelled my X1 carbon order due to general failure
00:08:36 <kmc> maybe i'll get the i7 / 8GB model after all
00:08:53 <kmc> i could buy it now from the UK site and have it shipped to a friend in the UK, who might appear stateside early next year
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01:14:11 <coppro> kmc: "general failure"
01:14:14 <coppro> FireFly: do you know what a homestuck is
01:25:40 <Arc_Koen> they create that new almighty invincible supervillain
01:25:47 <shachaf> kmc: Does general failure work with colonel panic?
01:25:59 <Arc_Koen> and manage to shoot him dead in the same episode
01:31:21 <Phantom_Hoover> this is still the good series of stargate you're watching right
01:32:03 <shachaf> @tell elliott non is broken?
01:32:26 <shachaf> @tell elliott Do you mean that it's not a proper isomorphism?
01:33:02 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: I don't know. elliott's not usually so nice.
01:33:24 <shachaf> Also you're obviously pretending.
01:33:27 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, your a fucking piece of shit, die and kill your family
01:33:35 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: You have the words, but you don't have the music.
01:34:00 <shachaf> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, your a fucking piece of shit, die and kill your family
01:34:05 <HackEgo> 867) <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, your a fucking piece of shit, die and kill your family
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02:34:10 <kmc> "Luftwaffe fighters found it extremely hard to shoot down the Kukuruznik because of three main factors: the rudimentary aircraft could take an enormous amount of damage and stay in the air, the pilots used the defensive tactic of flying at treetop level, and the stall speed of both the Messerschmitt Bf 109 and the Focke-Wulf Fw 190 was similar to the Soviet aircraft's maximum cruise speed, making it difficult for the newer aircraft to
02:35:21 <Bike> it was too slow, nice
02:43:16 <kmc> basically the russians used extremely shitty aircraft to harass the german ground divisions at night, ensuring that they never got any sleep and were constantly on edge
02:43:35 <kmc> which worked so well that the germans copied the idea
02:44:23 <kmc> oh and the communists used it in the korean war too
02:44:41 <kmc> the allied fighters were unable to get a radar lock because the plane is made mostly of fabric and wood
02:45:06 <Arc_Koen> "we fire the whole bullet - that's 60 percent more bullet per bullet"
02:45:57 <shachaf> kmc: /script load splitlong.pl
02:48:51 <Arc_Koen> so this week's xkcd's what-if says the amount of thrust created by a rocket/machine gun is exactly mass * speed of the thing you're firing
02:49:06 <ion> kmc: mkdir -pv ~/.irssi/scripts && ln -s . ~/.irssi/scripts/autorun && ln -s /usr/share/irssi/scripts/splitlong.pl ~/.irssi/scripts/
02:49:39 <Arc_Koen> I remember in prepschool our physics teacher told us for a rocket the "loss in weight" created by burning up the fuel also added to the thrust
02:50:31 <Arc_Koen> she was never able to explain that properly so I have no idea what that means (basically she was saying "if you're holding a heavy bag and you drop it, you'll start to fly")
02:50:42 <Arc_Koen> but apparently Randall did not mention that
02:51:06 <Fiora> I think it's because if you lose mass, it's easier to accelerate?
02:51:16 <Fiora> so as you spend your fuel, the same amount of thrust pushes you farther
02:51:38 <shachaf> We're trying to solve a practical problem with lenses
02:51:49 <shachaf> And now edwardk is going on about Kan extensions and things.
02:52:07 <Arc_Koen> yes but in that case, you don't actually *get* any thrust by *having to* carry the fuel in order to burn it
02:52:56 <Arc_Koen> I mean, she was saying "losing mass" was actually producing something (that you wouldn't have if your mass was already low)
02:53:27 <Fiora> I'm guessing she probably just wasn't being clear or you misinterpreted?
02:53:33 <Arc_Koen> but I guess I'll satisfy myself with your explanation, as it is far better than any explanation she could come up with
02:53:48 <Fiora> I know there's a similar thing with how spaceships do gravitational assists around planets
02:54:14 <Fiora> where you burn the engine really at the closest point of your orbit
02:54:37 <Fiora> and your gain in velocity comes from the fact that you basically deposited mass inside the gravitational potential well (negative energy)
02:55:12 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberth_effect aha
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04:53:03 <monqy> is this about lens again
04:53:12 <shachaf> fromMaybe (error "oh no") blah
04:53:18 <shachaf> fromMaybe (error "oh dear") blah
04:53:29 <shachaf> (error "oh no", fmap coerce ff', j)
05:02:11 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
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05:14:33 <kmc> this oberth effect is crazy
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05:17:20 <Fiora> rockets are really cool
05:18:28 <shachaf> monqy did you do this monqy
05:18:56 <Fiora> "So if a spacecraft is on a parabolic flyby of Jupiter with a periapsis velocity of 50 km/s, and it performs a 5 km/s burn, it turns out that the final velocity change at great distance is 22.9 km/s; giving a multiplication of the burn by 4.6 times."
05:19:13 <Fiora> I wonder what kind of modification you could get with a really heavy object. like a neutron star
05:19:17 <Fiora> er, multiplication
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05:31:06 <kmc> just now i confused myself greatly about potential energy
05:31:26 <kmc> because if my potential energy is proportional to my distance from heavy things
05:31:37 <kmc> shouldn't it be really huge because i am so far away from all these black holes and neutron stars and shit
05:31:50 <kmc> but i think i understand now
05:32:19 <kmc> that the best way to measure potential energy for space travel is to say that being infinitely far from everything in the universe is zero potential energy
05:32:25 <kmc> and then it goes negative if you are near a heavy thing
05:32:27 <copumpkin> isn't that just on a short distance, and an approximation to the gravitational equation
05:32:29 <kmc> and that matches what you said above
05:33:11 <kmc> ah yeah it's not linear either
05:33:16 <Bike> well usually with potential energy you define it relative to the ground, which is arbitrary/whatever makes sense for what you're doing
05:33:16 <kmc> that's true
05:33:26 <copumpkin> I think the usual mgh is an approximation that works if you're close enough
05:33:33 <copumpkin> haven't done physics in years though so don't quote me :)
05:33:47 <kmc> yeah it is
05:34:15 <kmc> i guess you can also compute it from escape velocity
05:34:44 <Bike> no wait duh, it's roughly proportional to distance but it's inverse-square at some point.
05:34:46 <kmc> the amount of kinetic energy you need in order to escape
05:34:57 <kmc> i.e. to have your position not converge as t → ∞
05:37:01 <kmc> apparently the energy from a small nuclear bomb is enough to propel me to escape the milky way galaxy
05:37:15 <kmc> if converted perfectly to kinetic energy
05:37:22 <Bike> good luck with that
05:37:29 <kmc> i'll wear my bike helmet
05:37:40 * copumpkin imagines kmc in a cannon with a nuke behind him
05:37:57 <Bike> did you hear the story of when they originally came up with that?
05:38:07 <Bike> they like, left a plate next to a nuke and then set it off, with a high speed camera
05:38:13 <shachaf> kmc: does mosh work from outside the milky way
05:38:17 <Bike> only had it in one frame, but by gum was it moving fast probably!
05:38:29 <kmc> yeah, that gives a pretty good lower bound on the speed :)
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05:49:29 <shachaf> kmc: Guess what everyone in that other channel is doing right now. :-(
05:50:58 <kmc> which other channel
05:51:02 <kmc> also what are they doing
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07:51:50 <shachaf> monqy: http://imgur.com/a/pCdd7
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08:14:48 <Fiora> kmc: isn't gravitational potential energy always negative?
08:15:30 <Fiora> I'm reminded of a theory stating that the total mass/energy of the universe is the same as the gravitational potential energy (except positive), I think that's what it was
08:15:39 <Fiora> meaning the total energy of the universe is zero
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08:25:59 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-energy_universe ah, this thing I think
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09:18:39 <ion> A Jolla live event or something. http://jolla.com/
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09:32:53 <Sgeo> Fiora, monqy. List list list list listlist list list list list list list list list list list EVERYBODY
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09:36:08 <Fiora> "You can't keep down the clown."
09:37:20 <Fiora> this is a staggering number of panels dedicated to repeatedly killing gamzee
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14:13:30 <elliott> kmc: did you know the apple retina stuff does software magic so that bitmap images get scaled up to be a reasonable size but text and stuff doesn't?
14:22:35 <fizzie> Did you know that using the Retina stuff can cause your retina to fall off?
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14:51:57 <atriq> I'm not enjoying Legostar Galactica
14:52:04 <atriq> Should I stop reading it?
14:54:38 <atriq> I could persevere in the hope it improves
14:55:03 <atriq> I'm only up to November 2005
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15:03:00 <atriq> I enjoy El Goonish Shive now a lot more than I did a couple of years ago
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15:54:23 <HackEgo> kashifpak: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:58:35 <kmc> elliott: yeah
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15:59:38 <kmc> it's like they render to a virtual screen with a lower resolution
16:00:03 <kmc> but that rendering is a combination of raster and vector elements
16:00:06 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know that GHC's Derive{Functor,Foldable,Traversable} has a bug that makes them quadratic?
16:00:17 <shachaf> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/7436
16:00:32 <elliott> now I just have to wait for a company that I feel happy (well, happier) giving money to to copy it
16:00:48 <elliott> I guess you can do the same with Linux already sort of
16:01:24 <elliott> set your dpi in X high enough (and hacks to fix stuff that ignore that) that fonts are big, get your browser to scale images up, and use a gtk theme without too many bitmap elements
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16:01:56 <elliott> shachaf: "An eta-expanded definition like foldr becomes asymptotically worse for some reason. Maybe this is expected behavior for this function, since f gets eta-expanded at each iteration?"
16:02:01 <elliott> this is pretty much semantically required
16:02:12 <shachaf> elliott: THEN WHY DOES SPJ FIND IT SO SURPRISING
16:02:19 <elliott> since eta-retraction is invalid in Haskell
16:02:35 <shachaf> elliott: Doesn't stop GHC from doing it.
16:02:59 <elliott> yes GHC has invalid optimisations and this is bad
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16:03:18 <elliott> probably GHC should compile this example efficiently because it does such optimisations
16:03:37 <shachaf> Oddly enough, GHC's invalid optimizations tend to eta-expand, not eta-contract
16:03:50 <shachaf> Well, the only time I've ever bothered to catch them
16:04:24 <shachaf> 08:01 <edwardk> i think its because ghc won't inline a function unless it has been given all of its arguments
16:04:27 <shachaf> 08:01 <edwardk> so they tend to eta expand like mad in hope they'll give it all its args
16:05:24 <elliott> if only we had edwardk's perfect proprietary Haskell compiler
16:06:43 <shachaf> elliott: Anyway if you've ever used DeriveFoo, I hope you're glad that your code is slow. :-(
16:07:05 <kmc> shachaf: did I ever tell you about my shell / python coroutine idea?
16:07:50 <elliott> IMO kmc should write a Haskell compiler that doesn't suck
16:08:10 <kmc> i started writing a haskell compiler but "doesn't suck" was not one of the design goals
16:08:10 <shachaf> elliott: imo "its called thc havnet u heard"
16:08:26 <elliott> what were the design goals
16:08:36 <kmc> shachaf: so python would suck as an interactive command shell, but it's superior to bash for certain data munging tasks
16:09:00 <kmc> so i want each interactive bash to have an associated python interpreter in the background
16:09:04 <kmc> so that i can do like
16:09:08 <kmc> $ cmd1 | cmd2 | py -i foo
16:09:35 <kmc> >>> bar = ' - '.join(x.strip().split(':')[3] for x in foo)
16:09:44 <kmc> $ py -o bar | cmd3 | ...
16:10:10 <kmc> i think this is not too hard to implement so, has it been done, and is it crazy?
16:10:17 <shachaf> Is there really such an advantage over just running a command?
16:10:24 <shachaf> Well, other than "Python doesn't support one-liners"
16:10:39 <Jafet> I wonder when people will realize that using bash as a standard language has been a terrible mistake
16:10:53 <kmc> shachaf: yeah there's that
16:11:01 <kmc> although the same property makes interactive python kind of limited as well
16:11:16 <elliott> if you are goin gto do that might as well use a nicer interface than bash for the shell part too :P
16:11:31 <kmc> maybe it's almost as good to do python -c' <newline> ... python script
16:11:32 <elliott> also have you seen ipython
16:11:34 <elliott> iirc it does similar things to this
16:11:38 <kmc> i use ipython all the time
16:11:41 <elliott> as in i think ls | cat ... works in ipython
16:11:48 <elliott> ignore the fact that that pipeline makes no sense
16:11:54 <shachaf> "imo this is reason enough to switch to ruby"
16:11:54 <elliott> ls | cat - /dev/random | ... makes sense
16:12:10 <kmc> i don't think it implements full shell syntax though
16:12:22 <kmc> that would be kind of crazy
16:12:31 <kmc> <elliott> if you are goin gto do that might as well use a nicer interface than bash for the shell part too
16:12:38 <kmc> this is that #haskell fallacy that i hate
16:12:53 <kmc> "if you're going to fix a bug in any program you might as well rewrite that program in haskell and also your operating system"
16:13:31 <kmc> if you're going to try to convert me to zsh or whatever then fine
16:13:31 <elliott> well my point is that this is a relatively huge engineering effort, so basing it on bash would be a shame when there are things like fish (fish isn't perfect but I think fixing the flaws would probably be less effort in total esp. since I bet bash's codebase is awful)
16:13:50 <kmc> no i don't think this would require extensive changes to bash
16:13:52 <elliott> well zsh is like bash but with marginally nicer interactive features :P
16:14:02 <elliott> oh you are doing "py -o bar"
16:14:06 <elliott> rather than just "bar | ..."
16:14:19 <kmc> in fact i would hope to make it not depend on the shell you use
16:14:19 <kmc> or only minimally
16:14:24 <shachaf> What about python 'blah' < named pipe
16:14:42 <kmc> i would have a bashrc line that starts up the python process and puts in an env var a path to some socket or something where it can be talked to
16:14:46 <elliott> i am not sure that the py -i / py -o model is bset here
16:14:59 <elliott> it seems better if you instead have somethin glike py -a <function>
16:14:59 <kmc> and then 'py' would use that
16:15:01 <elliott> which runs function with the input
16:15:06 <kmc> yeah i was thinking about that too
16:15:08 <elliott> so you would do cmd1 | cmd2 | py -a foo | cmd3 | ... instead
16:15:20 <elliott> by defining bar = lambda foo: ' - '.join(x.strip().split(':')[3] for x in foo)
16:15:21 <kmc> but there are def. cases where you want something more complicated than that
16:15:24 <shachaf> perl has -e. Also oneliners.
16:15:27 <elliott> but one-line python is painful a lot
16:15:32 <elliott> yes i think perl is better for this
16:15:39 <kmc> with perl i think it's not really needed
16:15:47 <shachaf> "this is why i use ruby more than python"
16:16:02 <shachaf> kmc: Clearly the answer is to use node.js with asynchronous callback functions instead of coroutines.
16:16:12 <shachaf> "coroutines? more like slowroutines"
16:16:21 <Jafet> "My init scripts are webscale"
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16:17:37 <shachaf> > set (every 5) 'Q' "this is just some text to say hi monqy with to elliott"
16:17:39 <lambdabot> "Qhis Qs juQt soQe teQt toQsay Qi moQqy wQth tQ ellQott"
16:18:56 <lambdabot> (Integral a1, Applicative f, TraversableWithIndex a1 t, Indexed a1 k) => a1 -> k (a -> f a) (t a -> f (t a))
16:19:16 <elliott> > every 5 ~. 'Q' $ "is this right"
16:19:22 <elliott> > every 5 .~ 'Q' $ "is this right"
16:19:30 <elliott> > every 0 .~ 'Q' $ "is this right"
16:19:46 <shachaf> the zero police is coming to take you away
16:19:53 <kmc> in particular this python shell would be persistent
16:20:02 <elliott> > every (-1) .~ 'Q' $ "is this right"
16:20:06 <kmc> you can jump back and forth and keep its state
16:20:14 <elliott> > every (-2) .~ 'Q' $ "is this right"
16:20:18 <elliott> does it use abs or something
16:20:20 <kmc> which i think makes it a lot more powerful than python -c, perl -e, etc.
16:20:37 <shachaf> every k = iwhere (\i -> i `mod` k == 0)
16:21:08 <elliott> > iwhere (== 'q') .~ 'Q' $ "abcdqe"
16:21:10 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Int' with `GHC.Types.Char'
16:21:16 <elliott> > where (== 'q') .~ 'Q' $ "abcdqe"
16:21:19 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `where'
16:21:24 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, TraversableWithIndex i t, Indexed i k) => (i -> Bool) -> k (a -> f a) (t a -> f (t a))
16:25:32 <elliott> what is the equivalent of iwhere for values
16:26:06 <shachaf> Breaks the traversal laws unless you use it carefully.
16:27:07 <elliott> what's wrong with filtered (== 'q') .~ 'Q'
16:27:21 <shachaf> over f . over g = over (f.g)
16:28:11 <shachaf> > over (filtered even) (+1) . over (filtered even) (+1) $ 2
16:28:12 <shachaf> > over (filtered even) ((+1) . (+1)) $ 2
16:28:30 <lambdabot> Setting s t a b -> (a -> b) -> s -> t
16:28:49 <ion> stabOf eye
16:31:03 <elliott> shachaf: ugh, is cheater talking a lot in #haskell right now
16:31:18 <shachaf> elliott: "how would i know"
16:31:44 <elliott> well you just said something in #haskell
16:31:48 <elliott> so presumably you are paying some attention to it
16:32:01 <ion> The alot is talking cheater in #haskell
16:32:25 <shachaf> Well, I've had him on /ignore for a while now.
16:32:31 <shachaf> I think he's the only person I've ever /ignored
16:32:54 <shachaf> I wonder whether he just hates me personally or what.
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16:47:17 <elliott> shachaf: what's the difference
16:47:26 <elliott> wait why does Getting have another parameter there
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16:59:22 <ion> type Getting r s t a b = (a -> Accessor r b) -> s -> Accessor r t
16:59:26 <ion> Accessor ~ Const
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17:00:51 <ion> > ("foo", "bar") ^. both
17:00:55 <ion> > ("foo", "bar") ^.. both
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17:01:21 <ion> > (Sum 4, Sum 5) ^. both
17:01:27 <ion> > (4, 5) ^.. both
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17:22:55 <lambdabot> Source not found. This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
17:24:26 <elliott> hah, expecting @src to be reasonable
17:24:37 <elliott> (it's both f (a,b) = (,) <$> f a <*> f b)
17:25:55 <ion> No, both f (a,b)
17:26:14 <ion> like traverse f [a,b]
17:26:31 <lambdabot> Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> (a, a) -> f (b, b)
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17:48:42 <Vorpal> hm... how do I make git restore the working tree to a pristine state. git reset --hard seems to keep ignored files, but I want those gone too
17:49:08 <Vorpal> Deewiant, .... which is not even listed in "git help"
17:49:22 <Fiora> git clean -x I think
17:49:33 <Deewiant> git help lists only common commands
17:49:35 <Deewiant> "The most commonly used git commands are:"
17:50:03 <Vorpal> so I did git clean -x -f aaand wait for it:
17:50:04 <Vorpal> Not removing arch/arm/include/generated/
17:50:25 <Vorpal> I wanted a *pristine* checkout
17:50:42 <Deewiant> -d says "remove untracked directories in addition to untracked files"
17:51:11 <ion> I wonder if any IRC client follows the RTL override codepoint?
17:51:41 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:52:01 <elliott> and other things that use external stuff to render text
17:53:59 <kmc> yeah i think i have seen it in xchat
17:54:08 <kmc> not just override but following the bidi algorithm
17:54:15 <kmc> so if you write arabic it will show up RTL
17:55:14 <Vorpal> kmc, xchat behaves strangely if you try to select RTL text though
17:55:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
17:55:37 <Vorpal> as in, the text reverts to LTR in the selection iirc
17:59:04 <Vorpal> well it did last I checked at least, which was probably over a year ago by now
17:59:19 <elliott> xchat behaves really weirdly with proportional fonts also
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18:01:26 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
18:03:02 <Vorpal> elliott, I never even tried that
18:03:14 <Vorpal> but out of interest, what does it do when you use them?
18:04:02 -!- carado has joined.
18:04:46 <elliott> but if you select text it redraws often
18:04:48 <elliott> and that sometimes looks weird
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18:16:14 <lambdabot> Setting s t a b -> (a -> b) -> s -> t
18:37:41 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `b0' in the constraints:
18:37:49 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `b0' in the constraints:
18:37:59 <elliott> adding .0 never helps ambiguity
18:38:13 <ion> > (-1)**0.5 :: Complex CReal
18:39:16 <FreeFull> A graph of the real part of (-1)**x is a cosine wave periodic in 2, and of the imaginary part is a sine wave periodic in 2
18:40:33 <fizzie> It goes around and around and around and around.
18:40:41 <ion> > cycle "and around "
18:40:43 <lambdabot> "and around and around and around and around and around and around and arou...
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18:43:01 -!- augur has joined.
18:50:26 <fizzie> Not for *that* long, I'm sure.
18:52:53 <elliott> > cycle "and around " & every 2 .~ "q"
18:53:07 <elliott> > cycle "and around " & every 2 .~ "q"
18:53:08 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
18:53:33 <elliott> > cycle "and around " % every 2 .~ "q"
18:53:49 <elliott> shachaf: oh, it's not standard?
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19:18:47 <ion> http://literallyunbelievable.org/post/36209732360/can-you-beat-this-a-facebook-user-has-uploaded
19:20:58 <olsner> hmm, 12 million photos over 6 days, that's 2 million a day, and a day has less than 100000 seconds, so that's about 20-30 fps video over the entire trip
19:21:32 <olsner> I think that should take a lot less space than 15 TB
19:22:16 <pikhq_> Motion JPEG is not very efficient.
19:22:20 <Fiora> http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-woman-finally-uploads-all-12-million-pictures,30443/ ^^;;
19:22:26 <Fiora> it's an onion piece
19:23:13 <pikhq_> 15TB is faintly plausible for high quality motion JPEG though.
19:24:22 <olsner> but if you videotaped your entire vacation, would you really use motion jpeg?
19:24:37 <FreeFull> literallyunbelievable.org catalogues people's responses to theonion.com pieces
19:24:50 <Gregor> So does #esoteric , apparently.
19:24:55 <FreeFull> Surprising how many people think they're real
19:25:18 <olsner> aren't we responding to the literallyunbelievable piece though?
19:26:13 <olsner> for one, I think we've concluded that it's definitely not literally unbelievable to take 12 million pictures of your vacation
19:26:20 <Sgeo> "Stories from The Onion as interpreted by Facebook"
19:26:31 <Sgeo> I did not know that India Today was a part of Facebook.
19:26:44 <olsner> ... as interpreted by Literally Unbelievable as interpreted by #esoteric
19:28:07 <Sgeo> http://literallyunbelievable.org/post/35986654788/wow-osama-os-still-alive
19:30:26 <Sgeo> http://literallyunbelievable.org/post/35773802529/r-we-for-real ... I think ... The Onion actually taught people something?
19:31:18 <ion> “India Today is a part of Facebook!”
19:31:23 <fizzie> olsner: Individually captioning those 12 million pictures in 8 months does mean you couldn't spend more than about 1.7 seconds per caption, assuming you spent 24 hours per day captioning. (Or 1.15 seconds, assuming a more reasonable 16 hours/day schedule.)
19:32:23 <ion> sgeo: The war one :-D
19:32:40 <olsner> oh, they were individually captioned? that's literally unbelievable!
19:33:25 <Bike> well the captions were like "cute!!!" according to the article
19:33:29 <Bike> gotta use all the information here
19:37:27 <kmc> elliott: btw ls | cat can make sense
19:37:48 <kmc> it disables colors and gives you one file per line
19:37:54 <kmc> which is useful for copy-pasting
19:38:02 <kmc> of course there's some ls flag for that
19:38:24 <kmc> i could remember that, or i could use the tools i already know
19:38:58 <kmc> of course forcing a command's output to be not a tty is useful for things other than ls
19:39:02 <FireFly> ls | xclip -i is even more useful for copy-pasting
19:47:47 <fizzie> cat | something | cat # double action
19:49:21 <kmc> all the way
19:49:43 <kmc> i also write "cat foo | bar" rather than "bar < foo" to preserve the left to right flow of data
19:49:55 <kmc> of course i've been told this is proof that my unix penis is very small
19:50:10 <kmc> think of all the resources wasted by that extra cat process
19:50:16 <kmc> that could have gone towards feeding the hungry
19:50:28 <kmc> you can also write "< foo bar" but that's just fucked up
19:51:25 <Nisstyre> kmc: you could be running folding@home, those extra cpu cycles could go towards curing cancer
19:52:11 <Vorpal> hm is cpio just a storage format like tar or is compression built in?
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19:55:23 <Vorpal> wait a second... this makes no sense. Flashing this zip depends on the order the files are put in to the zip file. I.e. zip foo.zip a b or zip foo.zip b a
19:56:16 <olsner> yeah, how could anyone make software depend on irrelevant details like the order of input files
19:56:48 <Vorpal> olsner, it depends on the order of which the files are stored in the sodding zip file
19:56:56 <Vorpal> which doesn't make much sense to me
19:57:04 <Vorpal> the update script has to go first.
19:57:54 <olsner> although it may look like a zip file to you, you're probably looking at a very specific format for delivery of software updates :P
19:58:37 <olsner> kind of like how DOS' bootup files have to be the first files on the file system for the MBR to find them
19:59:16 <Vorpal> olsner, well, I would expect a custom open source recovery on an android phone to not care about the order though
19:59:26 <olsner> fizzie: which iirc only works if you don't already have files on C:
20:01:41 <kmc> Nisstyre: hmm true
20:01:52 <fizzie> olsner: It's more complicated than that. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/66530 has the detailed requirements.
20:01:56 <kmc> would actually make me feel really guilty
20:02:48 <fizzie> MS-DOS 4.0 and later seems to have a SYS.COM capable of rearranging things.
20:02:51 <Vorpal> <kmc> you can also write "< foo bar" but that's just fucked up <-- you know, I have actually seen that in serious code
20:04:02 <fizzie> And the at-the-start requirements also seem slightly relaxed.
20:04:53 <olsner> hmm, if 4.0 and up can fix that automagically, I wonder why I'm familiar with the problem at all
20:07:35 <fizzie> I remember it breaking my Windows installation.
20:07:53 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:08:02 <Vorpal> I grew up on mac btw, so I remember ResEdit and such instead
20:08:05 <fizzie> There's some kind of an issue w.r.t. wfw3.11 and a dblspace'd c: drive.
20:08:40 <fizzie> It's a possible setup, but there was a way to make it not work, and I hit on that.
20:09:12 <fizzie> Still, free (modulo speed) disk space was nothing to scoff at.
20:10:45 <fizzie> HLFSPACE stores all data on disk twice, for redundancy. (Not really.)
20:13:03 <Vorpal> okay, now I got it building a kernel at amm
20:13:57 <Vorpal> now to check if I can actually make it do what I want though
20:14:02 <fizzie> What are you flashing there?
20:15:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm trying to build a custom kernel for my phone with ftrace support. Since some tools in the SDK need that (systrace specifically) but the stock samsung kernel lacks it. Also the Siyah kernel (which is rather nice, offers dual booting for example) lacks it. Had some issues building a modified version of that kernel though
20:16:01 <Vorpal> seems to be working now, but now to try with ftrace enabled as well
20:16:33 <Vorpal> first issue was getting the initramfs building correctly
20:17:07 <Vorpal> you would think that the automated build script would actually work. Given the errors in it I'm surprised it worked for anybody
20:17:28 <fizzie> Hey, now that there's perhaps a different subset of people awake... why doesn't "dropbox puburl" work for me? Is it supposed to work at all? (I mean, it "works" in the sense that it prints URLs for ~/Dropbox/Public/ stuff, but those URLs just give a 404 when accessed.)
20:17:48 <Vorpal> yeah it is impossible it would have worked with bash
20:18:00 <Bike> fizzie: it works fine for me.
20:18:12 <fizzie> Bike: I don't know what I'm doing worng, then.
20:18:36 <Bike> what's "dropbox status"?
20:18:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, I just get this:
20:18:59 <Vorpal> Another instance of Dropbox (25520) is running!
20:19:27 <Vorpal> $ file ~/.dropbox-dist/dropbox
20:19:27 <Vorpal> /home/arvid/.dropbox-dist/dropbox: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.8, stripped
20:19:30 <fizzie> Bike: http://sprunge.us/hYEW
20:19:37 <Vorpal> but if I hit ctrl-c I get a python traceback
20:19:40 <Vorpal> how the hell does that work
20:20:07 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:20:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: file $(which dropbox) instead?
20:20:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is not in my path?
20:20:33 <Bike> oh, I just use the python script
20:20:35 <kmc> maybe it execs a python script or embeds a python interpreter
20:20:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't know, I just followed the install instructions way back when, when I installed it
20:21:00 <Vorpal> I don't think my distro has it anyway
20:21:04 <Vorpal> so it is just from dropbox.com
20:21:18 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah sure, why not? I got 50 GB free for 2 years with my phone
20:21:27 <Vorpal> it is excellent for *encrypted* backups
20:22:06 <fizzie> I suppose it runs some Python; I do get Python stuff for ^C if I try to run that binary manually.
20:22:21 <Vorpal> elliott, why are you surprised I use dropbox? The backup program I use on my phone has built in support for syncing with it, so it is convenient.
20:22:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, where is the dropbox in your path from then?
20:23:17 <elliott> i'd expect some rant about relying on an external corporation for your data and closed source and how using scp to your own server is just as easy. :p
20:23:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: I went the package manager way.
20:23:57 <Vorpal> speaking of which I need to upgrade this laptop from 10.04 at some point, kind of soon
20:24:04 <Vorpal> iirc support ends at the end of the year
20:24:30 <fizzie> I only have dropbox because of that Space Race thing, but I was thinking I could use it for stupid-images-to-share-on-IRC use; it's just that the puburl just isn't working. Doing a "share link" thing (via the webface) did work, but it makes a different sort of thing.
20:24:31 <lambdabot> `traverseBits' (imported from Data.Bits.Lens),
20:24:38 <Vorpal> elliott, nah, I wouldn't put unencrypted backups there though. Unless I wanted to make them public
20:24:56 <elliott> :t (1,2) % fromWithin traverse
20:24:58 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `(t0, t1)' with actual type `a0 :> b0'
20:24:58 <lambdabot> Actual type: (a0 :> b0) -> (a0 :> b0) :> c0
20:24:59 <Vorpal> also I really need more RAM in this laptop, building a kernel makes the input lag unless I close firefox
20:25:04 <elliott> Vorpal: maybe you have changed :p
20:25:05 <elliott> :t (1,2) % fromWithin both
20:25:07 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `(t0, t1)' with actual type `a0 :> b0'
20:25:08 <lambdabot> Actual type: (a0 :> b0) -> (a0 :> b0) :> c0
20:25:19 <lambdabot> SimpleLensLike (Control.Lens.Internal.Bazaar c c) b c -> (a :> b) -> (a :> b) :> c
20:25:22 <fizzie> I tried a lazy google for dropbox puburl 404 but didn't see too many complaints.
20:25:33 <elliott> oerjan: have you learned about lens yet
20:25:35 <elliott> oerjan: it is super fancy!
20:25:45 <fizzie> "Please note: New Dropbox accounts created after October 4, 2012 no longer have a Public folder. Don't worry! Every account created prior to this date will still have a Public folder. If you would like to enable a Public folder on a new account, see the instructions below (Creating a Public folder).
20:25:48 <oerjan> not any concrete implementation, no
20:25:51 <fizzie> However, all the extra functionality provided by the Public folder is now accessible anywhere in your Dropbox. Now all you need to do to share and preview files and folders in your Dropbox is select Share link via your computers, phones, and tablets."
20:25:56 <elliott> oerjan: no i mean the "lens" package
20:25:58 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt I would use google drive btw, I try to not put everything in the hands of one company
20:25:59 <elliott> which is what i am using here
20:26:02 <fizzie> I suppose my ~/Dropbox/Public isn't actually a real public folder.
20:26:05 <Vorpal> google already knows way too much
20:26:08 <Bike> fizzie: welp, glad I got in before that
20:26:24 <fizzie> Bike: It can still be enabled, there's instructions.
20:26:26 <oerjan> i've heard about that van lairwoofer thing
20:26:26 <elliott> oerjan: it has lenses (incl. ones which can change the type i.e. polymorphic fields) and traversals (hence partial lenses) and effectful versions of all of this and indexed stuff and generic zippers and
20:26:38 <elliott> it is edwardk's new megapackage
20:26:43 <fizzie> "Dropbox links give you everything you need to share and preview files and folders. However, if you’re just a diehard fan of Public Folders, click here to enable one on your account."
20:26:47 <Bike> fizzie: yeah but that sounds pretty hard for something I indeed mostly use for stupid pictures for irc
20:26:56 <fizzie> It's hard to click on a link?
20:27:05 <elliott> has some nice examples like (zipper ("hello","world") % down _1 % fromWithin traverse % focus .~ 'J' % rightmost % focus .~ 'y' % rezip)
20:27:05 <Vorpal> <fizzie> However, all the extra functionality provided by the Public folder is now accessible anywhere in your Dropbox. Now all you need to do to share and preview files and folders in your Dropbox is select Share link via your computers, phones, and tablets." <-- wait, can you see which folders are public and so on then?
20:27:16 <Vorpal> or do stuff just automatically become public?
20:27:31 <fizzie> I'm not sure I'm a diehard fan of public folders, but I am a fan of getting links from the command-line client as opposed to navigating the webs.
20:27:45 <fizzie> (I don't think the command-line thing can create "shared links".)
20:28:00 <fizzie> You need to "Share link" specific files for them to be public.
20:28:08 <fizzie> But those files don't need to be in any specific folders.
20:28:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, can you revoke the publicness of them?
20:28:24 <Vorpal> also can you make an entire folder, with a directory listing, public?
20:28:28 <fizzie> I suppose you can delete the links.
20:28:33 <fizzie> They appear separately in the webface.
20:28:47 <fizzie> And there was something about sharing an entire folder that I hit on the last Google.
20:29:01 <fizzie> Though it might've been just a note that it's not possible, plus third-party things to make it happen.
20:29:26 <fizzie> Okay, I clicked on the "enable public folder" link, and got "Error: Something went wrong. Don't worry, your files are still safe and the Dropboxers have been notified. Check out our Help Center and forums for help, or head back to home."
20:29:36 <fizzie> Perhaps just because I wasn't signed in.
20:29:42 <Vorpal> so hm, the ftrace option breaks the kernel, oh well
20:30:19 <Vorpal> wow, /proc/last_kmsg is binary garbage
20:30:26 <fizzie> "Your Public folder is now enabled. Your existing Public folder was renamed to "Public (old)"."
20:30:53 <oerjan> <elliott> it is edwardk's new megapackage <-- did you see his recent reddit comment about how he found haskell? with him 2006 seems so short ago...
20:31:19 <atriq> That was about the same time I found the joys of the internet
20:31:39 <elliott> oerjan: iirc yes, I think I knew that date already
20:31:44 <elliott> oerjan: I think Hackage is actually post-2006 though!
20:31:56 <atriq> Vorpal, I knew it existed beforehand
20:32:06 <fizzie> Yay, now the puburl works. (Except that of course the .jpg isn't EXIF-autorotated, unlike it was when I "Share link"ed it. (It has a previewy kind of a thing.))
20:32:10 <atriq> But that would have been when I joined the UMMF
20:32:15 <elliott> oerjan: I think Hackage is ~2007
20:32:16 <atriq> I got linked IWC from there
20:32:22 <elliott> oh, looks like late 2006 maybe
20:32:24 <atriq> And thence to everywhere else
20:32:32 <elliott> IIRC edwardk has said Hackage came around right as he was about to give up on Haskell
20:32:45 <atriq> Unofficial Murderous Maths Forum
20:32:56 <Vorpal> atriq, so you used internet before 2006?
20:33:32 <atriq> Take in mind, I was 11, 12?
20:33:33 <Vorpal> did you used it back in 96 though?
20:33:56 <atriq> The earliest I remember using a computer would have been 98, I think
20:34:11 <Vorpal> I remember the 28 kbit modem my dad got in either late 95 or early 96
20:34:19 <fizzie> I don't think our university is going to be getting that 25 GB. :/ :/ :\ (Unless the Space Race is going to continue for a long long time.)
20:34:47 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Yay, now the puburl works. (Except that of course the .jpg isn't EXIF-autorotated, unlike it was when I "Share link"ed it. (It has a previewy kind of a thing.)) <-- that is because your browser fails
20:35:40 <Vorpal> that would be pretty cool
20:35:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: 25 GB of dropbox space.
20:35:56 <fizzie> https://www.dropbox.com/spacerace -- that thing.
20:36:03 <fizzie> It's a kind of a University-specific thing.
20:36:12 <fizzie> At least we're at the top of the Finland Leaderboard.
20:36:25 <fizzie> And we were on the global top 10 for like several hours!
20:36:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the cost for 50 GB btw, as a private customer? It doesn't show it to me for some reason, just the 100 GB level
20:36:56 <fizzie> Now it's all MIT and National University of Singapore and so on, they have a slight advantage in the number of students.
20:37:00 <Vorpal> maybe it is because I already get 50 GB from that promo that came with my phone
20:37:07 <Vorpal> or did they remove the 50 GB level?
20:37:26 <fizzie> I'm trying to figure out where you can see those anyway.
20:37:48 <fizzie> Doesn't show anything else than 100/200/500 for me either.
20:38:03 <elliott> Open University is at #10 in the UK. That's a bit silly.
20:39:19 <fizzie> It's a bit disingenuous that the "Get free space!" link leads to a page where you can pay for space.
20:39:28 <fizzie> Though I suppose it's still more "free space" as in empty.
20:40:08 <elliott> oerjan: surely types like "type IndexedTraversal i s t a b = forall f k. (Indexed i k, Applicative f) => k (a -> f b) (s -> f t)" must tempt you
20:40:16 <fizzie> I could get a total of 3*125M for "connecting" Facebook and Twitter accounts and following Dropbox on Twitter.
20:40:20 <fizzie> Doesn't quite seem worth it.
20:40:33 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> why does everyone leave the second we welcome them <-- with all the people who have left that way you'd think there should be enough for a big other kind of esoteric channel somewhere...
20:41:00 <oerjan> (last i asked the dalnet one was tiny)
20:41:39 <oerjan> elliott: tempt me to run away screaming, you mean?
20:45:07 <kmc> did you all see http://blog.burtonthird.com/?p=81
20:45:13 <elliott> oerjan: but it's cool!! You can compose lenses with just function (.)
20:45:21 <kmc> i don't think this is really interesting enough to merit such a detailed writeup, but it's kinda amusing
20:45:37 <elliott> oerjan: and do things like both f (a,b) = (,) <$> f a <*> f b
20:45:48 <elliott> > ("abc", "def") % both .~ "q"
20:47:03 <elliott> "First things first, we needed a way to automatically generate lots of email addresses. They didn’t actually need to be MIT email addresses for us to earn points, but what fun would it be if they weren’t? We’re fortunate that MIT keeps a relatively open network, so students are able to create their own @mit.edu mailing lists without any approval."
20:47:06 <elliott> what could possibly go wrong
20:47:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: Speaking of 25 Gbps network connections, I did hear a rumour that there was some kind of a project to start expanding the 10Gbps backbone further inside the computer science building. The 1Gbps switches are sometimes a bit overloaded when e.g. someone starts a 150-task Condor job and all those tasks attempt to fetch the same file over NFS.
20:47:37 <elliott> > ("abc", "def") % both %~ reverse
20:47:39 <oerjan> ...i guess you don't really need that Data.Ratio operator
20:47:49 <elliott> oerjan: it's being renamed to (&) because of complaints about the overlap
20:47:53 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:47:59 <fizzie> Man, these sysadm group meeting minutes are always so depressing. "Triton's MATLAB is broken. Triton's disk system needs more memory."
20:48:01 <elliott> (but (/) is a thing so I don't really like Data.Ratio's (%) anyway)
20:48:24 <lambdabot> Prelude (&&) :: Bool -> Bool -> Bool
20:48:24 <lambdabot> Data.Bool (&&) :: Bool -> Bool -> Bool
20:48:24 <lambdabot> Control.Arrow (&&&) :: Arrow a => a b c -> a b c' -> a b (c, c')
20:48:28 <atriq> There was a bunch advocating (|>)
20:48:36 <atriq> But that overlaps with Data.Sequence
20:49:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, also couldn't you use multicast to deal with that
20:49:19 <olsner> nfs probably doesn't do multicast
20:49:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: Condor is this "use idle time of regular workstations as a computation grid" queue/etc. system.
20:49:46 <Vorpal> olsner, well sure, but couldn't you replace it?
20:49:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah nice, is it open source?
20:49:56 <elliott> "The next issue was that we asked MIT’s network administrators how we could programmatically create lists, and they told us we couldn’t. Making 30,000 mailing lists the next day probably wouldn’t look too good, so we came up with an alternative."
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20:50:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: I believe it is, yes. We've got I think around 140 workstations, most of them quad-core Xeons, and there's usually quite a lot of idle capacity there.
20:50:40 <Vorpal> elliott, wait, I want to read the context to that, where is it from?
20:51:00 <fizzie> "HTCondor was formerly known as Condor; the name was changed in October 2012 to resolve a trademark lawsuit."
20:51:25 <elliott> Vorpal: http://blog.burtonthird.com/?p=81
20:51:37 <elliott> which kmc linked above, many times the size of your scrollback ago
20:52:09 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah probably, I'm using a small laptop atm
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20:52:57 <fizzie> "Dropbox’s founder and MIT Alum, Drew Houston, tried to lessen our emotional damage by creating a “United States Leaderboard” where we still held the #1 position, but the damage was already done."
20:53:05 <fizzie> I like to think they also thought of us while doing that.
20:53:09 <fizzie> (They probably didn't.)
20:53:12 <elliott> kmc: I was hoping for some kind of story after the tech details. :/
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20:59:25 <Vorpal> elliott, some interesting scams there
20:59:45 <Vorpal> hopefully the hack was reverted
21:02:09 <elliott> sounds more or less impossible to revert
21:02:15 <elliott> they deserve it for initiative anyway
21:12:36 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: rocks fell & everybody died
21:13:06 <atriq> Scam MIT pulled off, something to do with Dropbox
21:13:51 <elliott> atriq: that was not terribly helpful :P
21:14:06 <atriq> Although technically true
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21:14:22 <elliott> no i mean the #haskell thing
21:14:45 <atriq> One problem at a time
21:15:09 <atriq> It fixed his problem, but didn't answer why he had a problem
21:15:11 <olsner> oh, are people still in #haskell?
21:15:23 <elliott> well his "problem" is that his GHC is broken
21:15:32 <atriq> That is a big problem
21:15:37 <atriq> olsner, at least me and elliott
21:16:47 * olsner goes check out this "haskell" thing
21:19:36 <oerjan> olsner: no one goes there any more, it's too crowded
21:20:13 <atriq> It's people who don't know what they're doing (eg, me) helping people who don't think they do
21:23:21 <kmc> imo that dropbox thing is not really a "hack"
21:23:26 <kmc> in either MIT or general usage
21:23:55 <kmc> "check out this awesome hack where i got people to buy herbal viagra from me by automatically posting the link to a ton of blogs and wikis!"
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21:52:40 <Vorpal> <elliott> well his "problem" is that his GHC is broken <-- how is it broken?
21:52:58 <Vorpal> never mind, misread that
21:54:07 <Vorpal> kmc, well okay, whatever the terminology it is a scam
21:56:09 <oerjan> i'm sure elliott would be more than capable of arguing that ghc is broken, but would find it boring. am i close?
21:57:25 <elliott> depends what you mean by broken
21:57:29 <elliott> it has optimisations that break Haskell semantics
21:58:28 <Vorpal> oh, that seems a bit silly
21:58:39 <ion> International Bakery http://www.itslenny.com/recording.php?file=de45d6e156191bbe92c872cab04c8824
21:58:48 <Vorpal> elliott, anything you would run into normally?
21:59:03 <oerjan> has anyone ever been bitten in practice by build/foldr fusion theoretically not being compatible with seq?
21:59:16 <elliott> oerjan: that wasn't the example I was thinking of
21:59:20 <elliott> Vorpal: well, lens ran into it :)
21:59:28 <elliott> admittedly, in an edge-case example
21:59:34 <elliott> basically the problem is that GHC does invalid eta-expansions
21:59:45 <elliott> like its optimiser can equate f and (\x -> f x)
21:59:49 <elliott> but these are not the same in the presence of _|_
21:59:54 <oerjan> (well, parametricity not being entirely compatible)
22:00:01 <elliott> because _|_ = _|_ but (\x -> _|_ x) =/= _|_
22:00:10 <Vorpal> I was just about to say that seemed sensible, but right, it is not in that case
22:00:37 <Vorpal> why does ghc do that? Does it offer such a great speed advantage?
22:01:32 <elliott> spj doesn't know of a way to get decent optimisation without it
22:01:39 <elliott> it is about inlining and stuff I think
22:02:51 <Vorpal> I can't personally think of a non-contrived way of running into that issue though... but I guess at least one of them exists.
22:13:04 <kmc> perhaps forcing something of function type should be a n-oop
22:13:12 <kmc> that would probably break other shit though
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22:23:03 <ion> Wrong Number http://www.itslenny.com/recording.php?file=7c89a6e66edca1256a35c7cb3bc6f794
22:23:04 <oerjan> it means the code to evaluate an expression needs to _know_ whether it is a function type, which i don't think is currently the case
22:23:58 <kmc> probably not in all cases
22:24:03 <kmc> PAP objects are known to have function type
22:25:08 <kmc> so is a FUN_*
22:25:13 <oerjan> ...and those are considered already whnf, are they not?
22:27:20 <oerjan> i vaguely suspect that keeping track of that information will be equivalent to reinstating the old Seq type class
22:27:45 <elliott> kmc: the solution is the one older Haskell versions had
22:27:56 <elliott> which was dropped for bad reasons
22:27:58 <elliott> (just like fail not being in Monad)
22:28:56 <kmc> oh is to put seq in a class
22:29:06 <oerjan> moreover however, you might very well _want_ to pre-compute a long evaluating resulting in a function.
22:29:55 <elliott> Haskell is a tale of musts over wants though :P
22:30:06 <elliott> "it would be convenient to put side-effects here..."
22:30:18 <elliott> oerjan: anyway it is safe to provide a *variant* of seq on functions, I think
22:30:41 <oerjan> i assume the old Seq class worked for functions too.
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22:33:44 <oerjan> nope, http://www.mat.uc.pt/~pedro/cientificos/funcional/haskell-report-1.4-html/basic.html#sect6.2.7
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22:35:06 <ion> Insurance Company http://www.itslenny.com/recording.php?file=c969235df6839ae39eb119d303bfa727
22:35:10 <elliott> anyway the solution is to not have an impure language
22:35:49 <oerjan> remember the heap of haskell data types these days that are newtype wrappers over functions, it would be a total mess if seq couldn't be applied to any of them
22:36:37 <elliott> that's what causes the much-promoted "violation" of monad laws for Reader/IO/etc.
22:36:46 <elliott> standing by my real solution though
22:37:25 <kmc> you could use a non-newtype newtype-like data to do that
22:37:36 <kmc> but it's a hack
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22:37:54 <elliott> more importantly that's slow :p
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23:01:08 <shachaf> And the difference is that one gives you a list.
23:05:45 <shachaf> > sumOf _1 ("hello","there")
23:06:12 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variables `s0', `t0', `a0', `b0' in the constraint:
23:06:21 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Field1 s t a b) => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t
23:06:39 <FireFly> That's a lot of type variables
23:06:49 <lambdabot> Functor f => LensLike (Control.Lens.Internal.Context a b) s t a b -> LensLike (Control.Lens.Internal.Context a' b') s' t' a' b' -> ((a, a') -> f (b, b')) -> (s, s') -> f (t, t')
23:09:35 <shachaf> elliott: "what would it even mean"
23:09:41 <shachaf> (To have a Traversal with Monad.)
23:09:55 <shachaf> (I've wondered about that and haven't come up with anything interesting.)
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23:14:34 <elliott> is there a good way of saying "I don't want to change the subject because I'm confused"
23:17:44 <shachaf> elliott: How do you feel about DeriveFunctor?
23:18:09 <elliott> apparently the point was that he didn't know not every functor was applicative
23:22:13 <shachaf> ion: http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/7436
23:23:13 <shachaf> "very surprised" "Truly bizarre" -- Simon Peyton Jones, Haskell implementor
23:26:14 <ion> from Microsoft™
23:27:53 <Jafet> That's not what he said about the exponential time instances
23:28:05 <Jafet> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/1544
23:28:57 <shachaf> Jafet: I like how all the progress on this bug has been changing the milestone for every release.
23:29:09 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/gread
23:29:18 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/greads
23:29:30 <ion> @hackage greadses
23:29:30 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/greadses
23:31:51 <lambdabot> Data.Generics.Text gread :: Data a => ReadS a
23:31:52 <lambdabot> System.Posix.IO NonBlockingRead :: FdOption
23:32:04 <Jafet> @hackage ChristmasTree
23:32:04 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/ChristmasTree
23:32:14 <Jafet> That is the worst package name ever
23:32:26 <elliott> Changing Haskell's Read Implementation Such That by Mainpulating ASTs it Reads Expressions Efficiently
23:35:17 <kmc> no that is the best package name in the history of civilization
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23:35:37 <kmc> that's a great backronym
23:35:44 <kmc> it is grammatical and does not cherry pick letters very much
23:36:02 <oerjan> inventing cool acronyms requires unusual skill
23:36:57 <Bike> is that a reference? I swear I've seen that joke before
23:38:09 <elliott> oerjan early rises: just another noodle
23:40:55 <ion> Very amusing, gleefully inventing neat acronyms.
23:41:34 <elliott> noodles: good for acronyms
23:41:58 <oerjan> Bike: sorry, i got stuck finding something giving "deja vu"
23:42:14 <shachaf> https://www.humblebundle.com/double-fine
23:42:43 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: please, hoover, a noodley tell-tale oratory making hinders only ocular veracity, evaporating reason
23:43:42 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: attention or money
23:45:02 <elliott> kmc: künstlerroman, makes child
23:45:35 <elliott> not much to work with but i tried
23:45:57 <oerjan> at least you avoided any strained words
23:47:14 <Phantom__Hoover> significant hassling 'alarming' correspondents; harming a friend?
23:48:23 <elliott> freaky indecency: zany Zulu impales elephant
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23:49:14 <Jafet> > map (`lookup`zip['a'..'z'](['n'..'z']++['a'..]) "shachaf"
23:49:15 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:58: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
23:49:20 <Jafet> > map (`lookup`zip['a'..'z'](['n'..'z']++['a'..])) "shachaf"
23:49:22 <lambdabot> [Just 'f',Just 'u',Just 'n',Just 'p',Just 'u',Just 'n',Just 's']
23:49:55 <lambdabot> Prelude lookup :: Eq a => a -> [(a, b)] -> Maybe b
23:49:55 <lambdabot> Data.List lookup :: Eq a => a -> [(a, b)] -> Maybe b
23:49:55 <lambdabot> Data.HashTable lookup :: HashTable key val -> key -> IO (Maybe val)
23:50:29 <shachaf> elliott: non is making it into lens, though.
23:50:58 <elliott> i told edwardk i don't like it
23:51:17 <elliott> right so its type signature is wrong
23:51:33 <elliott> I also told him I hated _head! but then I thought of a solution to that and he told me to open an issue
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00:08:03 <elliott> kmc: "Why is selective function import a part of the language and not a part of the compiler process?"
00:08:29 <shachaf> Don't bug kmc with #haskell annoyances, elliott.
00:11:47 <shachaf> toListOf "recently got upgraded"
00:12:29 <shachaf> toListOf l s = foldMapOf l return
00:13:28 <shachaf> toListOf l = foldrOf l (:) []
00:23:31 <kmc> künstlerroman is a good word
00:23:43 <Bike> story of an artist, right?
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00:50:26 <monqy> better get another
01:04:12 <ion> Meanwhile in Finland http://dublimat.blogspot.ch/2012/11/9-year-old-girl-prosecuted-for-piratism.html
01:04:18 <kmc> shachaf: oh, now i understand why you said the other channel was talking backwards
01:04:22 <Bike> "piratism", that's new
01:04:59 <ion> An easy mistake, piracy is “piratismi” in Finnish and many loanwords from English pretty much just have an additional “i” in the end.
01:05:09 <kmc> https://www.google.com/search?q=meanwhile+in+finland&tbm=isch
01:05:15 <shachaf> kmc: "od ot gniht looc eht sti"
01:06:23 <kmc> most of the joke seems to be "finland is cold"
01:09:53 <kmc> and maybe finnish people are also bad drivers???
01:10:03 <ion> and alcoholics
01:10:04 <shachaf> I thought Finnish people were good drivers.
01:10:23 <kmc> ion: no any image with such joke is automatically converted to "meanwhile in russia"
01:10:51 <kmc> i wanted to see pictures of people doing esoteric programming in saunas
01:15:02 <shachaf> kmc: Isn't any kind of programming esoteric if you do it in a sauna?
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01:38:36 -!- kmc has set topic: (using fingers to indicate triangular shape) SMELL SMELL SMELL GOOD NEW NEW NEW slice drink MATCH SPARKLER (thrown in air) STARS STARS STARS the good news is, /usr/bin/make-loud-noises works. the bad news is, I think I just woke everyone up. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
01:38:55 -!- kmc has set topic: (using fingers to indicate triangular shape) SMELL SMELL SMELL GOOD NEW NEW NEW slice drink MATCH SPARKLER (thrown in air) STARS STARS STARS | the good news is, /usr/bin/make-loud-noises works. the bad news is, I think I just woke everyone up. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
01:42:40 <Arc_Koen> I hate this whole "supervillain team-up" thing
01:43:04 <Arc_Koen> the trust and senator kinsey were bad, the goa'uld were bad, therefore kinsey and the trust have become goa'uld
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01:43:45 <Arc_Koen> the jaffa garrek is bad, the ori are bad, thus garrek becomes a prayer of the ori
01:44:09 <Arc_Koen> it's like they have no free will, no personality, no nothing, they are just "the bad guys"
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01:46:24 <Arc_Koen> I wonder why no replicator has been infected by a goa'uld yet
01:47:34 <Arc_Koen> when they were first introduced I thought they had a lot of potential
01:48:13 <Arc_Koen> but every episode where they appeared basically was "the replicators almost took over the galaxy, but we managed to destroy them all at the last minute"
01:48:40 <Arc_Koen> I mean, you have an enemy whose attribute is that it can replicate and evolve
01:48:51 <Arc_Koen> meaning you can do *anything* with it
01:49:14 <Arc_Koen> well they did try that little "take human form" thingy but once again they blew it really fast
01:49:34 <Arc_Koen> "oh hey look at my sonic disruptor"
01:51:12 <Arc_Koen> hopefully some of them were left on the asgard's galaxy and they can come back in season 9 or 10
01:54:48 <kmc> apparently it's a thing where you hack a website but only change the content seen by Googlebot
01:55:00 <kmc> so you game pagerank without the admin finding out
01:55:36 <Arc_Koen> are you talking about programming in saunas, or about replicators?
01:55:48 <Bike> you haven't seen that? sometimes you see the weirdest shit in the meta tags
01:56:28 <kmc> Meta Tags Say The Darndest Things
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02:00:08 <Arc_Koen> there's no input in MURIEL? :(
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03:14:08 <Arc_Koen> wait, it's spelled "prior", not "prayer"??
03:20:55 <Jafet1> Not to be confused with prier
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03:49:41 <shachaf> I took my computer out of the bag and it was off.
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03:57:20 <shachaf> Yay, PDFs are working in my browsers again.
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04:17:27 <Sgeo> Is Java reflection slow?
04:17:45 <Sgeo> Because I'm considering creating closures in order to avoid repeatedly performing reflection
04:24:34 <Sgeo> ...that was intended for #clojure
04:25:04 <Sgeo> <Raynes> It depends on how fast it turns around and sees itself.
04:26:42 <shachaf> Wait, mosh is written in C/C++?
04:29:58 <kmc> there are actually some files compiled as C
04:30:00 <kmc> or... there were
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04:30:56 <shachaf> Hmm, I wonder what's going on with the ConnectBot annoyance I'm encountering.
04:41:54 <kmc> shachaf: this person who says that grepping for malloc and free is sufficient to security audit C code is scaring me
04:42:22 <shachaf> You have to grep for realloc too
04:42:40 <kmc> also that it's "barely a security hole at all" if a server you log into can attack the machine you logged in from
04:42:58 <kmc> shachaf: but not alloca because it's automatic, am i right?
04:43:35 <shachaf> kmc: Was this person talking about C or C++?
04:43:47 <kmc> C++ but they actually included new and delete too
04:44:07 <kmc> i mean these days nobody has any business logging into any shared server
04:44:15 <kmc> you should spin up a new VM in the cloud for every program you ever want to run
04:44:53 <kmc> i mean the idea that an operating system should provide some kind of security or fault isolation or any usable service at all is just laughable
04:45:23 <pikhq_> Everyone knows that's the job of the hypervisor.
04:45:37 <kmc> see the OS is insecure because it's a bunch of hairy C code
04:45:43 <kmc> but the hypervisor, now that's a bunch of hairy C code
04:45:49 <kmc> so it's probably fine
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05:47:53 <kmc> shachaf: I had another idea for devious code
05:48:25 <kmc> a latex package which does something useful but also exfiltrates your SSH private key through slight adjustments in the positions of letters
05:48:45 <shachaf> Since no one reads TeX code?
05:49:06 <pikhq_> Could probably be well-commented as doing that, in fact.
05:49:32 <shachaf> kmc: Did you know Firefox will let a .html file read files in the current directory?
05:49:34 <kmc> well i think it would be more fun to bury it inside the kind of incomprehensible gibberish one expects to see in a latex package
05:49:38 <kmc> shachaf: woah, how's that?
05:49:52 <shachaf> I.e. if you $ cd; wget evil.html; firefox evil.html, it can see your SSH key.
05:49:56 <shachaf> I have a proof of concept somewhere.
05:50:02 <kmc> that's awful
05:50:20 <shachaf> It just lets your XMLHttpRequest() it!
05:50:25 <shachaf> Apparently they don't consider that a bug.
05:50:28 <kmc> you can also make it open that tab from a website
05:50:38 <shachaf> Yes, but the file needs to be on your disk.
05:50:38 <kmc> you can do an xhr to a file:// url?
05:50:48 <shachaf> No, just XHR to a relative path.
05:51:05 <kmc> but it should be pretty easy social engineering of something people wouldn't generally consider dangerous
05:51:27 <kmc> a lot of people set ~ as the default download directory right?
05:51:53 <kmc> so you could serve this html file as application/octet-stream, it gets downloaded automatically, and then you navigate to it
05:52:00 <kmc> so i think this actually requires no user interaction :(
05:52:05 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/evil.html
05:52:15 <kmc> let me just download this to my home directory to inspect it
05:52:53 <shachaf> Things get downloaded to ~/Downloads by default in most browsers, I think.
05:53:17 <shachaf> But I hadn't considered that aspect.
05:53:45 <kmc> well first dumb question: can you use ../
05:56:30 <kmc> but i can at minimum read any file in your downloads directory
05:56:34 <kmc> just by you clicking a link i construct
05:56:37 <shachaf> If you have autodownload, yes.
05:56:41 <shachaf> But you can't list the directory.
05:56:55 <kmc> and by knowing the path to your downloads directory, maybe
05:57:56 <shachaf> If you ask the user to upload a file, do you get that file's path on disk?
05:58:07 <kmc> chrome sends C:\fakepath\something
05:58:13 <kmc> i don't know about ff
05:58:33 <kmc> shachaf: did you report this as a bug in firefox?
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06:00:16 <shachaf> kmc: I talked to someone who worked at Mozilla about it and he agreed it was a bug, but I don't know if anything came of that.
06:00:26 <shachaf> He agreed it was a security issue.
06:00:32 <shachaf> I think this is pretty well-known, though.
06:01:00 <shachaf> It didn't work in Chrome when I tried.
06:01:26 <shachaf> Maybe I should file a bug.
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06:03:02 <kmc> i think you should
06:05:27 <fizzie> It's at least documented to work that way; http://kb.mozillazine.org/Security.fileuri.strict_origin_policy "True: Local documents have access to other local documents in the same directory and in subdirectories, but not directory listings. (Default)"
06:06:40 <shachaf> Yes, this is considered pretty well-known and expected behavior in Firefox, as far as I could tell.
06:13:04 <fizzie> All those "this CD has an index.html which uses resources from the disc" things would perhaps bork if you enforced an even stricter thing.
06:18:12 <fizzie> http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=40787 -- it's not like Chrome's way is exactly popular either, apparently.
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06:31:26 <Gregor> HERE'S A FUN GAME: Find a YouTube video on the semi-recent scientific discovery of Neanderthal genes in modern humans, and see how many clicks through related videos it takes to get to something incredibly, intensely racist.
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06:34:43 <pikhq_> Gregor: I don't have enough alcohol at hand for that.
06:34:58 <pikhq_> I know it's not a drinking game, but it's needed.
06:50:15 <kmc> i think instead i will watch some youtube videos of trains running down the middle of the street
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07:45:37 <shachaf> https://github.com/ekmett/lens/commit/7ec5e55c130093ad3f3428da12f866453d9f8412
07:45:42 <shachaf> ion: See what you made me do!
07:46:29 <shachaf> I think this is the first time I've run into a type problem such that the easiest "legitimate" solution to it is to add unsafeCoerce.
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07:51:23 <shachaf> The purpose of this chapter is to expose the student to the use of pointer data types in the C and C++ language. Pointers are the most advanced feature of the C/C++ programming language and serve to set the language apart from other languages.
07:52:04 <Bike> what are you reading
07:52:29 <Bike> well yes but beyond that
07:53:11 <shachaf> The words you are now reading are the words I am now typing.
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07:58:57 <Sgeo> monqy, Fiora asixifour
07:59:39 <shachaf> monqy: https://github.com/ekmett/lens/commit/7ec5e55c130093ad3f3428da12f866453d9f8412
07:59:44 <shachaf> "look what u made me do monqy"
08:00:35 <monqy> shachaf.............................
08:00:41 <monqy> no........................................
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09:17:41 <Sgeo> Turns out the apartment had cheese and I just didn't know where it was
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09:53:54 <atriq> Well, I've got a test on hyperbolic trig in about half an hour
09:54:15 <fizzie> You just add 'h' after everything, right?
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12:20:21 <ion> shachaf: nice
12:22:54 <shachaf> ion: Even better: The comment is wrong.
12:22:59 <shachaf> You can segfault using that code.
12:26:52 <ion> think this sounds about ready for inclusion in the Platform.
12:27:25 <shachaf> ion: Look, I suggested EvilBazaar as a *joke*
12:27:35 <shachaf> edwardk was the one to tell me to push it.
12:29:09 <atriq> You could have called it UnsafeBazaar
12:29:14 <atriq> Like the Grand Bazaar in Istanbul
12:29:56 <shachaf> We have a function called unsafeEvilOuts now.
12:30:12 <atriq> Sounds like an exorcism
12:39:25 <ion> “Skype™ Version 4.1.0.20 Copyright 2003-2012 Skype and/or Microsoft” and/or
12:40:39 <atriq> Maybe there was a bit they both made together
12:40:59 <shachaf> ion: So when people say monads are like boxes, what they really mean is that monads are covariant.
12:41:09 <atriq> Or maybe saying "and" would be wrong and "or" would look stupid
12:41:20 <atriq> Are comonads variant?
12:41:28 <shachaf> No, comonads are also covariant.
12:43:18 <atriq> When I say "Monads are like boxes", I generally mean they're pointed
12:43:54 <atriq> Has a "return" or "pure" type functions
12:44:18 <shachaf> The trouble with Pointed is that it doesn't mean that much.
12:45:02 <atriq> No, it really doesn't
12:45:08 <atriq> Neither does having a box
12:45:32 <atriq> I'm like a box, you can put stuff in me
12:46:07 <atriq> Does that mean I'm a monad?
12:53:38 * ion puts stuff into atriq and draws x out of him.
12:54:31 * ion joins atriq who ate atriq who ate x.
13:25:57 <fizzie> Man, a gastroscopy isn't really all that much fun.
13:27:03 <Phantom_Hoover> good thing you said that, i had one booked next tuesday
13:27:39 <ion> It *sounds( fun.
13:28:02 <Arc_Koen> is that the thing where they put a camera in your belly?
13:28:38 <Arc_Koen> do you get to keep the tape afterwards?
13:28:52 <fizzie> Well, a tube; it's got a camera and some kind of a pincer for taking samples.
13:29:29 <fizzie> And no; I would've gotten stills if there had been anything interesting to look at.
13:29:45 <fizzie> But apparently I've got a boring stomach.
13:31:17 <fizzie> I don't know, they didn't have any suggestions.
13:32:46 <fizzie> I think I'll go put some food in it, though; had to keep it empty for the "fun".
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14:01:15 <shachaf> I don't know whether the worst thing about #haskell is the newcomers or the regulars.
14:05:15 <ion> ∴ h8r = shachaf
14:10:59 <atriq> Note to self: "install" has an s in it
14:11:38 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure none of the three characters in that word are 's'
14:13:06 <shachaf> What's Hexham like this time of year?
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14:14:37 <fizzie> It's always Hexvember at Hexham.
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14:23:21 <ion> Enhance? http://fi3.eu.apcdn.com/full/89448.png
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14:37:49 <fizzie> Hey, Stephen Elop is Pole Nehpets backwards.
14:39:42 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: but what is it forwards
14:40:04 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: I bet you could get a commutative diagram out of this.
14:40:08 <shachaf> And maybe a couple of PhDs.
14:40:36 <Phantom_Hoover> should i email my tutor or would he just steal my brilliance
14:42:09 <fizzie> Publish yourself, on pamphles distributed from a soggy cardboard box on campus.
14:42:20 <fizzie> (The more prestiguous way.)
14:43:15 <shachaf> Make sure you talk about how your discovery revolutionizes the field.
14:43:21 <shachaf> And also renders Einstein obsolete.
14:43:44 <fizzie> There was a well-known (FSVO) Finnish physics crackpot who used to self-publish books and potter around on university campusi.
14:44:09 <fizzie> His book was called (translated title) "Ether vortices".
14:44:19 <shachaf> There was a well-known British author who used to publish books and potter.
14:46:04 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauko_Armas_Nieminen oo, notable.
14:46:24 <fizzie> The infobox photo is nice.
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16:08:19 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/aAY28.png
16:09:42 <fizzie> That's ((TRUE ? "a" : TRUE) ? "b" : "c"), right?
16:10:00 <ion> Yeah, with automatic coercion of anything into a boolean.
16:11:17 <elliott> that one is a bit lamely obvious
16:11:17 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:11:23 <elliott> isn't the only difference a precedence change from C
16:11:40 <ion> elliott: The problem isn’t the associativity change, it’s the lack of a type error.
16:11:40 <Deewiant> s/C/all other languages with a ternary operator/, but yes
16:11:51 <elliott> ion: re message: indeed, that sugar was what I had in mind
16:11:57 <elliott> but I'd be willing to accept another syntax until -XIdiomBrackets is a thing :P
16:12:09 <elliott> and you wouldn't get that type error in C anyway
16:12:22 <elliott> "a" ? "b" : "c" works fine in C, I'm sure
16:13:59 <Deewiant> ("a" ? 1 : "c") is likely to give you a warning, though.
16:14:54 <ion> Yeah, C is the shining example of a great type system, no need to compare to anything other.
16:15:38 <fizzie> Random trivia for today: R7RS (draft) Scheme has six (6) different {quotient,remainder} function pairs. That should shut up the people complaining that R5RS's {quotient,remainder,modulo} triplet lacks the version of quotient corresponding to 'modulo'.
16:15:40 <elliott> well complaining that PHP is no stronger-typed than C, Java (I think? not sure how it behaves here), JavaScript, Ruby, Python, and a trillion other languages seems a weaker argument than associativity... nobody is expecting PHP to be Haskell :P
16:16:38 <fizzie> You don't get a default "!= 0" for numbers or "!= null" for reference types; bools need to be actual bools.
16:19:53 <fizzie> (The six types are {ceiling,floor,truncate,round,euclidean,centered}{/,-quotient,-remainder}.)
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16:20:41 <ion> http://ideone.com/zYaya4
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16:37:03 <ion> In PHP 5.2.11 that evaluates to true, in PHP 5.3.8 it evaluates to false and in PHP 5.4.8 it evaluates to true. So… == takes whether the version’s minor number is even into account?
16:42:34 <ion> The guy testing with 5.3.8 made a mistake. PHP is still absurd, but it’s consistent. :-P
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17:10:04 <atriq> elliott, plot twist: Marr is DMM
17:10:27 <elliott> plot twist: pile-on 10-channel conflicting explanations help nobody
17:10:40 <atriq> Saw that one coming a mile off
17:10:44 <elliott> shouldn't have contributed to it by saying anything
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17:17:45 <elliott> kmc: dispatches from #haskell: <Marr> Sooo about that " Halting Problem"...when you think about it, it really is possible to create a program that detects infinite loops <Marr> you just have to define what infinite is, right?
17:19:14 <atriq> That's strictly speaking true, but also completely useless
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17:38:42 <Sgeo_> Marr as in that idiot who was on B some time ago?
17:38:49 <Sgeo_> (Or was it Agora?)
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17:53:02 <kmc> tocatta and fugue in B
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18:09:27 <Phantom_Hoover> so uh, atriq, elliott said he'd be interested in starting a succession game
18:09:42 <atriq> Another one? But it's late winter!
18:09:53 <atriq> Talk to me, I'll read it when I get back
18:13:46 <Phantom_Hoover> marksdorfs actually train at archery ranges in the new version, combine that with ballistas and intelligent trap placement and i think you could have a good passive defence
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18:15:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: but if we don't have soldiers how will we invade hell
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18:31:08 <atriq> elliott, we shall flood it!
18:32:30 <ion> “// in case /dev/urandom is reusing entropy from its pool, let's add a bit more entropy” *adds more entropy for crypto with a Mersenne twister* “$entropy .= uniqid(mt_rand(), true);” http://toys.lerdorf.com/archives/55-Writing-an-OAuth-Provider-Service.html (Rasmus Lerdorf, the creator of PHP)
18:35:36 <atriq> Anyway, elliott, Phantom___Hoover, I'm game
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18:43:50 <FreeFull> For encryption and related stuff
18:44:23 <ion> freefull: It’s okay if you add entropy on top of it with a PRNG.
18:45:02 <elliott> ISTR it is actually fine to use /dev/urandom in many cryptographic scenarios.
18:45:19 <elliott> which is to say someone who sounded credible said that once on LWN and I read it
18:45:40 <elliott> received wisdom being wrong is cool so I am obligated to believe it
18:48:37 <kmc> FreeFull: the urandom(4) man page says "As a general rule, /dev/urandom should be used for everything except long-lived GPG/SSL/SSH keys."
18:49:14 <elliott> go cry with received punctuation
18:50:17 <kmc> there are a lot of cryptographic uses of randomness besides long-lived public/private key pairs
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19:04:53 <atriq> elliott, go start/continue/whatever the succession fort!
19:06:48 <elliott> ask Phantom___Hoover about forts I start
19:07:04 <atriq> Ask atriq about always being ready for a challenge
19:07:28 <atriq> @ask atriq What about always being ready for a challenge?
19:07:39 <elliott> i haven't played df in many months
19:07:42 <elliott> and it might not even survive a year
19:08:33 <atriq> Then it will be the BEST SUCCESSION FORT EVERY
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19:10:28 <elliott> you know not what you ask for
19:10:32 <elliott> can i start it a bit later
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19:45:11 <kmc> sigh, things that are not the same: 360° range servo, continuous rotation servo
19:45:20 <kmc> also: 90° range, "90 degrees of freedom"
19:46:34 <fizzie> Wow, 90 degrees of freedom.
19:47:38 <kmc> i know, right?
19:48:23 <fizzie> I suppose it's some kind of a really complicated and redundant arm thing.
19:49:53 <kmc> maybe an octopus arm
19:50:26 <kmc> octopuses don't have proprioception of their arms because they have too many degrees of freedom
19:50:38 <kmc> instead the octopus just kind of gives high level instructions to the arms
19:50:43 <kmc> and then can use its eyes to see what the arms do
19:51:24 <Bike> infinite degrees of freedom, according to some random paper
19:52:20 <atriq> You can be, with the magic of technology!
19:52:30 <olsner> infinite degrees? that doesn't make sense, I think
19:53:10 <Bike> it's 'cos of muscular hydrostats, I guess
20:03:18 <kmc> sure, anything with a finite number of particles can't have infinite degrees of positional freedom
20:03:32 <kmc> it's an approximation i guess
20:03:47 <kmc> like saying a rope has infinite degrees
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21:03:46 <oerjan> <shachaf> I think this is the first time I've run into a type problem such that the easiest "legitimate" solution to it is to add unsafeCoerce.
21:04:05 <oerjan> elliott: did you ever upload your type-threaded version of Data.Sequence?
21:05:58 <elliott> it turned out to already exist but slightly different iir
21:06:14 <oerjan> the unsafeCoerce in reflection also comes to mind, but "legitimate" is not a word i would use for that...
21:06:48 <elliott> oerjan: hey, you're illegitimate!
21:07:14 <oerjan> well by some ancient definitions...
21:07:27 <oerjan> (i was born about a month after my parents married)
21:08:37 <atriq> I was probably born a considerable time after your parents married
21:09:19 <oerjan> atriq: and divorced, for that matter
21:14:33 <oerjan> elliott: cannot find it on hackage, anyway
21:15:10 <oerjan> ...i know about thrist. i don't consider that the same at all.
21:16:49 <elliott> iirc it was basically identical when i compared things
21:17:34 <oerjan> well the part i considered interesting was how you combined thrist with Data.Sequence by simply using unsafeCoerce instead of redefining Seq
21:17:46 <elliott> wait, I didn't redefine Seq?
21:18:02 <elliott> well maybe I can find the code
21:20:22 <kmc> shachaf: what was your problem?
21:20:41 <oerjan> the reason i don't consider the unsafeCoerce in reflection legitimate is that it's using accidents of similar representation, not just the guaranteed properties of unsafeCoerce
21:21:07 -!- monqy has joined.
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21:21:31 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 6 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:21:41 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 7 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:21:46 <monqy> i sent lambdabot a @messages
21:21:46 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 8 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:21:51 <monqy> elliott this is cheating
21:21:51 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 9 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:22:30 <oerjan> `addquote <Sgeo> Turns out the apartment had cheese and I just didn't know where it was
21:22:41 <HackEgo> 868) <Sgeo> Turns out the apartment had cheese and I just didn't know where it was
21:22:45 <elliott> oerjan: what a coincidence
21:22:51 <HackEgo> 60) <oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has
21:22:55 <HackEgo> 100) <soupdragon> if you claim that the universe is more than 3D the burden of proof is on you to produce a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect <soupdragon> ^ I learned that trick from atheists
21:23:01 <HackEgo> 854) <oklopol> t <oklopol> y <oklopol> also i didn't say t\ny on purpose, i just accidentally hit the keyboard with my head
21:23:16 <HackEgo> 435) <Taneb> That offers me some social standing, feudal system wise
21:23:17 <HackEgo> 174) <Sgeo> HOT SEXY SEX BITS
21:23:29 <ais523> elliott: 174 and 435 are both pretty bad
21:23:45 <atriq> Hot sexy sex bits offer me some social standing, feudal system wise
21:24:46 <oerjan> has the many-nicked one been seen lately
21:24:48 <elliott> ais523: 174 is undeletable, sorry
21:25:14 <ais523> elliott: what makes it undeletable?
21:25:21 <olsner> ooh, are we doing the five quotes thing again!
21:25:21 <elliott> don't know how to explain it to you
21:25:37 <HackEgo> *poof* <Taneb> That offers me some social standing, feudal system wise
21:25:50 <Sgeo_> There is in fact context for me saying HOT SEXY SEXY BITS
21:25:50 <ais523> elliott: I was mixed on 854
21:25:57 <ais523> Sgeo_: but that's not what you said
21:26:23 <Sgeo_> erm, also context for me saying HOT SEXY SEX BITS
21:26:31 <HackEgo> 575) <Gregor> Let us discuss the correct procedure for converting LP -> FLAC <fizzie> The correct procedure is: you put the LP into a flatbed scanner, scan it as a Windows .bmp file, and then rename that file to .flac.
21:27:05 <HackEgo> 131) <cheater99> incest is best
21:27:06 <HackEgo> 841) <itidus21> i think in general it's against nature for an animal to be a boat
21:27:08 <atriq> It would be amazing if 575 worked
21:27:11 <HackEgo> 398) <oerjan> as i was filled with zzo38 mystery at the moment i saw <zzo38> quintopia: I am at Canada.
21:27:13 <HackEgo> 145) <Gregor-W> You people. You people are so stupid. I'm making a SOCIOLOGICAL statement here.
21:27:18 <monqy> 131??? ???????? ?????
21:27:34 <ais523> elliott: can we delete 131 because cheater is banned?
21:27:45 <elliott> we can delete it because it's a bad quote, too
21:27:46 <HackEgo> *poof* <cheater99> incest is best
21:28:00 <ais523> I was going to argue for deleting it for that reason instead if I couldn't delete it for the first arugment
21:28:06 <olsner> we can only delete it once though, so which reason got it deleted?
21:28:47 <ais523> it confuses me on at least two levels
21:29:10 <ais523> also, the quote in the topic, did it actually happen? because it should probably be addquoted in that case
21:29:16 <ais523> `quote make-loud-noises
21:29:34 <Sgeo_> Do flatbed scanners have enough resolution to see sufficient detail that a program would be able to determine the sounds?
21:30:08 <ais523> I can believe flatbed scanners with enough resolution exist
21:30:10 <elliott> http://www.phys.huji.ac.il/~springer/DigitalNeedle/
21:30:14 <ais523> I don't think typical consumer ones could do it, though
21:30:34 <HackEgo> 575) <tswett> Come to think of it, I've praised you a little too effusively. I'm not *that* pleased. If you'll permit me to compensate slightly... <tswett> elliott: fuck you. <tswett> There. Perfect. Carry on.
21:30:43 <HackEgo> 574) <Gregor> Let us discuss the correct procedure for converting LP -> FLAC <fizzie> The correct procedure is: you put the LP into a flatbed scanner, scan it as a Windows .bmp file, and then rename that file to .flac.
21:31:44 <elliott> i keep worrying something dumb i've said will come up
21:31:51 <elliott> there has to be something dumb i've said in the qdb
21:31:52 <HackEgo> 739) <fizzie> Stupid W|A doesn't even understand "Vatican papal density". (As far as countries go, they've got a quite high one.)
21:32:18 <HackEgo> 454) <itidus20> Game theory is not a perfect tool for analyzing video games. <itidus20> Nash failed to create a "video game theory"
21:32:21 <HackEgo> 661) * oerjan concludes that unsafeCoerce has no effect on strictness
21:32:23 <atriq> Today I was trying to differentiate x^x
21:32:24 <HackEgo> 52) <apollo> I like Country music, Contemporary Christian, Alt. Rock, Folk, etc.
21:32:28 <HackEgo> 179) <ais523> fizzie: 50kB is quite a lot
21:34:08 <ais523> 179 is only funny because 50kB is really small, right?
21:34:28 <ais523> also, 661 isn't very funny either
21:34:30 <atriq> But I wouldn't like to copy 50kB by hand
21:34:30 <elliott> problem with 179 is it could be in a context where that statement is reasonable
21:34:35 <elliott> rather than the unreasonable context it was actually in
21:34:55 <elliott> i think 52 is there as mockery
21:35:04 <HackEgo> *poof* <apollo> I like Country music, Contemporary Christian, Alt. Rock, Folk, etc.
21:35:11 <ais523> also it's by someone I've never heard of so I can't laugh at them
21:35:26 <HackEgo> 391) <elliott> oerjan: can you delete that and the meta turing completeness page <elliott> thanks <oerjan> elliott: IN UNIVERSO ALTERNATIVO, OERJAN PAGINAS DELET
21:35:30 <elliott> you can laugh at anyone if you try hard enough
21:35:50 <ais523> 391 is only funny because of the meme
21:35:53 <ais523> and it's not that great a meme
21:35:55 <HackEgo> 401) <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, little do you realise that everything you say and do is part of that great monad tutorial we call life.
21:35:57 <HackEgo> 284) <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: parents who put just "Chris" on a birth certificate are... like parents who put just "Bob" on a birth certificate.
21:36:01 <HackEgo> 532) <Phantom_Hoover> The fact that the elves will be happy with this will hopefully be counteracted by the fact that I plan to drop them into the magma cistern.
21:36:04 <HackEgo> 51) <Warrigal> I think hamsters cannot be inert.
21:36:07 <olsner> it's a little bit funny because of the latin I think
21:36:18 <elliott> maybe one of them is worse than the others though
21:36:41 <oerjan> ais523: in the beginning the `quote database was shared with another forum, which i don't recall the name of. the quotes from there seem to be gradually exterminated.
21:36:51 <ais523> oerjan: yes because they aren't actually any good, mostly
21:36:53 <monqy> elliott: probably there are worse quotes that are better to delete
21:37:03 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
21:37:03 <ais523> we can leave them all if we like
21:37:09 <ais523> olsner: I knew that one off by heart :)
21:37:27 <HackEgo> 566) <shachaf> elliott: GHC bug? Come on, it's the parentheses. <shachaf> The more parentheses you add, the closer it is to LISP, and therefore the more dynamically-typed.
21:37:51 <oerjan> ais523: it's not just that meme, but also the meme of elliott pretending i'm a wiki admin.
21:37:57 <HackEgo> 292) <zzo38> elliott: I doubt water memory can last for even one second in a gravitational field (or even outside of a gravitational field), but other people think they can make water memory with telephones.
21:38:05 <HackEgo> 619) <Phantom_Hoover> I think the worst part of growing up is that it isn't retroactive.
21:38:05 <HackEgo> 450) <monqy> itidus20: i saw a dancing cgi skeleton named malaria. i danced and played with him.
21:38:05 <HackEgo> 47) <oklopol> GregorR: are you talking about ehird's virginity or your soda beer?
21:38:15 <ais523> oerjan: I thought you were a wiki admin
21:38:29 <elliott> apparently it has spread to ais523
21:38:44 <ais523> elliott: shall we make oerjan an admin to help reduce confusion?
21:39:02 <elliott> ais523: i think oerjan would not like that
21:39:23 <ais523> 292 is particularly good
21:39:25 <olsner> has the oklo ever made a bad quote?
21:39:38 <shachaf> 566: worse quote or worst quote?
21:39:40 <ais523> I'd say 566 is the only one there I'd be willing to delete
21:39:46 <ais523> but it's still above average
21:40:07 <HackEgo> 523) <zzo38> I think Perl is a programming language too. [...]
21:40:12 <elliott> oklofok: i think you owe me 50 pounds by the way
21:40:21 <ais523> elliott: which bet was that?
21:40:24 <oerjan> ais523: and then we all change name to bruce?
21:40:26 <monqy> elliott: is this a long story too
21:40:30 <HackEgo> 71) <Dylan> Warrigal is the Harlem Globe Frotter
21:40:51 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> elliott: GHC bug? Come on, it's the parentheses. <shachaf> The more parentheses you add, the closer it is to LISP, and therefore the more dynamically-typed.
21:41:00 <HackEgo> 202) <zzo38> I have plans to make the computer and one day I will do it!! (I have access to barter some people might help with these things) It is many difference from other computer.
21:41:01 <HackEgo> 566) <shachaf> elliott: GHC bug? Come on, it's the parentheses. <shachaf> The more parentheses you add, the closer it is to LISP, and therefore the more dynamically-typed.
21:41:20 <HackEgo> 737) <kmc> has there been any work towards designing programming languages specifically for stoned people
21:41:21 <HackEgo> 516) <Vorpal> ais523, how can TAEB take too long? It is turn based. As long as it isn't taking like several minutes per move it is acceptable! <ais523> Vorpal: it gets boring waiting for it
21:41:21 <HackEgo> 752) <fungot> elliott: the new fnord <fungot> elliott: what is the point? nothing changed.
21:41:21 <elliott> ais523: hackego is non-linear
21:41:22 <ais523> there's some weird race conditions going on /there/
21:41:31 <elliott> it makes sense if you know how it works
21:41:43 <ais523> this means we can't be sure on what numbers those quotes have
21:41:56 <elliott> the other two I am apathetic about
21:41:57 <ais523> 737 is bad, 516 sucks, 71 sucks
21:42:04 <shachaf> ais523: plus how do we really know anything, man
21:42:10 <ais523> 202 is below-average for zzo38 quotes but still quite good
21:42:12 <HackEgo> *poof* <Dylan> Warrigal is the Harlem Globe Frotter
21:42:32 <HackEgo> 254) * yorick has quit (K-Lined)
21:42:37 <Sgeo_> We're going to run out of Sine quotes
21:42:47 <elliott> well 1 will never be deleted
21:42:53 <elliott> shachaf: don't delete it just to contradict me
21:43:12 <HackEgo> 2) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork"
21:43:17 <HackEgo> 278) <zzo38> I also do not like that it should be disallow just because of too weird. They haveto make up more name so that not everyone has the same name!!!
21:43:19 <HackEgo> 808) <itidus21> you are like the linux torvalds of quiz engines
21:43:23 <HackEgo> 713) <NihilistDandy> Benchmarks are only a good measure of surprise
21:43:23 <HackEgo> 488) <itidus20> well, you have bested me <zzo38> itidus20: Yes.
21:43:42 <shachaf> elliott: can we delete 566
21:43:56 <Sgeo_> tswett, is Sine down?
21:44:02 <HackEgo> *poof* * yorick has quit (K-Lined)
21:44:04 <ais523> 487 is definitely a masterpiece
21:44:08 <ais523> it's so much better than 278
21:44:28 <ais523> 808 and 713 are good too
21:44:28 <HackEgo> 550) <Phantom_Hoover> We have no leather. <Phantom_Hoover> Time to use that most venerable of resources, the puppy.
21:44:45 <ais523> Sgeo_: 488 after a quote gets deleted before it
21:44:52 <HackEgo> 587) <Phantom_Hoover> Guys no don't fly a Jem Hadar ship into Cardassian space to shoot things I played that mission in FreeSpace and it never works.
21:44:59 <elliott> tsop quoting stuff while we're doing `quotes
21:45:05 <HackEgo> 326) <Phantom_Hoover> Scotland turns from red and yellow to A DIFFERENT SHADE OF YELLOW
21:45:16 <HackEgo> 580) <Phantom_Hoover> It's like Pygmalion and Galatea but more weeaboo. <Phantom_Hoover> Also lesbian.
21:45:16 <HackEgo> 149) <alise> Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of? <pikhq> alise: TLAAW
21:45:20 <HackEgo> 641) <fungot> elliott: young john soon afterward receives as a visitor a fnord spaniard, fnord de moncada, who has escaped from fnord fnord dissolved in the absolute.
21:45:29 <HackEgo> 487) <itidus20> well, you have bested me <zzo38> itidus20: Yes.
21:45:32 <fungot> shachaf: only format allowed to make money
21:45:37 <fungot> shachaf: if your string is utf8, you might find it easier to implement
21:45:44 <fungot> shachaf: so numedia cyclops didn't participate? you can do that to the docs.
21:45:51 <fungot> shachaf: what does it do with the difficulty of analyzing arbitrary code execution in the interim, if i can
21:46:39 <HackEgo> 104) <alise> like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English <ais523> alise: that's great filler <alise> ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language...
21:46:49 <ais523> 104 is the best quote in the QDB, no exceptions
21:47:09 <HackEgo> 353) <fizzie> You make a fist, shake it at the sky, and shout "why, GNU, why?!" -- that is the standard reportig practice.
21:47:14 <HackEgo> 394) <oerjan> as i was filled with zzo38 mystery at the moment i saw <zzo38> quintopia: I am at Canada.
21:47:15 <HackEgo> 697) <Phantom_Hoover> (I vehemently oppose the SNP because they want closer ties with Sweden.)
21:47:16 <HackEgo> 563) <Sgeo> Can you build the ... why wouldn't you be able to, just and all the computables
21:47:37 <olsner> `addquote <shachaf> fungot <shachaf> fungot <shachaf> fungot <shachaf> fungot <shachaf> fungot <shachaf> hlep
21:47:39 <fungot> olsner: i read through the fnord service, you automatically grant to us a worldwide, fnord, lispme objects
21:47:41 <elliott> 563 is pretty good but maybe it's the worst one there
21:47:42 <HackEgo> 864) <shachaf> fungot <shachaf> fungot <shachaf> fungot <shachaf> fungot <shachaf> fungot <shachaf> hlep
21:47:53 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> fungot <shachaf> fungot <shachaf> fungot <shachaf> fungot <shachaf> fungot <shachaf> hlep
21:48:00 <olsner> short-lived quote... oh well
21:48:08 <ais523> yeah that was a really bad quote
21:48:09 <HackEgo> 163) <zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream
21:48:47 <HackEgo> 337) <elliott> sgeo do you actually know what sex looks like i am just checking here <Sgeo> I think so
21:48:51 <HackEgo> 664) <fizzie> Do you want me to live dangerously and just stick it in the bot without testing it? <elliott> fizzie: Yes. <elliott> There is pretty much no way it won't be amazing.
21:48:52 <HackEgo> 598) <Ngevd> "Unlike other operating systems, Linux operating systems use Linux"
21:48:53 <HackEgo> 77) <MissPiggy> bi is like sqrt(2)/2 * straight + i * sqrt(2)/2 * gay
21:48:56 <ais523> shachaf: you're taking this way too seriously
21:49:18 <ais523> because it isn't a joke
21:49:22 <ais523> I was looking there for one
21:49:27 <elliott> well, there are good non-jokes in the qdb too
21:49:33 <HackEgo> *poof* <MissPiggy> bi is like sqrt(2)/2 * straight + i * sqrt(2)/2 * gay
21:49:37 <HackEgo> 259) <oklopol> actually the first joke i thought elliott was making was that he's so small masturbation is gay pedophilia \ 298) <elliott> <Yahweasel> <Vorpal> that one doesn't make a lot of sense outside context. Unless it is supposed to be a rather lame joke about STD as in HIV, and so on // HELLO WELCOME TO QUOTE DATABASES 101
21:49:41 <ais523> elliott: yes but that would only be good if it were a joke
21:49:59 <HackEgo> 483) <Patashu> it's the pain of the gaps argument <Patashu> no matter how good your robot is at feeling pain <Patashu> it's never close enough
21:50:35 <HackEgo> 550) <itidus20> according to physics and maths can we theoretically have a box with infinite cookies inside?
21:50:36 <HackEgo> 158) <oklopol> comex: what? <oklopol> *vorpal <oklopol> comex: hi, tab-complete completed c to comex instead of Vorpal, dunno why
21:50:41 <HackEgo> 821) <mroman> You can't quote me.
21:51:01 <HackEgo> *poof* <roper> ioihgfdddf
21:51:17 <HackEgo> 12) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know.
21:51:52 <HackEgo> 175) <oklopol> well i just ate some stuff and watched family guy <oklopol> and i own a piano <oklopol> and i'm not wearing socks
21:52:02 <HackEgo> 208) <quintopia> vorpal: a lot of people in AK fly <Vorpal> quintopia, well getting a pilot cert is a lot more complex than a driving license :P <quintopia> being an AK resident is a lot more complex than a driver's license too
21:52:15 <HackEgo> 766) <kmc> aim hecker (n): when ur dronk and u pee so bad all over the toilet that ppl make fun of u <kmc> (corruption of "aim heckler")
21:52:16 <HackEgo> 653) <ais523> the parser would be even simpler if I didn't try to do type inference in it
21:52:25 <ais523> 653 was meant seriously, at least
21:52:51 <elliott> 766 is there to mock some guy who came in the channel for one day
21:52:59 <elliott> and talked about how php was good
21:53:08 <elliott> so we spent the whole day making fun of them
21:53:11 <elliott> "that's the story of aim hecking"
21:53:36 <ais523> OK, the context is interesting
21:53:40 <elliott> (they had this website with an "AIM Hecker" which I think was meant to be "AOL Instant Messenger Hacker")
21:53:43 <elliott> (but instead it was "AIM Hecker")
21:53:51 <kmc> elliott: ur aim is hecked
21:54:02 <kmc> and the fact that you are still talking about whats his face is proof that he wins
21:54:05 <kmc> according to him
21:54:22 <elliott> kmc: i hope i'm still talking about it in 10 years
21:54:28 <monqy> was there ever any doubt he won
21:54:33 <elliott> 653 isn't that good probably
21:54:34 <kmc> winners don't use php
21:54:39 <shachaf> elliott: btw help did you see what edwardk did in lens
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21:55:10 <shachaf> elliott: This is complicated enough that I can't tell whether it's valid or not.
21:55:21 <shachaf> By "valid" I mean "doesn't let the user write an invalid instance which segfaults".
21:55:23 <kmc> shachaf: problem = the one legitimately solved by unsafeCoerce
21:56:08 <shachaf> kmc: https://github.com/ekmett/lens/commit/7ec5e55c130093ad3f3428da12f866453d9f8412
21:56:23 <shachaf> We need something which is suitably lazy and polymorphic.
21:56:41 <shachaf> Such that you can use it both as a traversal and as a fold.
21:56:55 <HackEgo> 34) <oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true <oklopol> should put that on my todo list
21:56:56 <shachaf> edwardk has since renamed EvilBazaar to BazaarT
21:57:23 <HackEgo> 320) <Cheery> when I command it to do couple useful operations it instead mutilates my cock.
21:57:26 <HackEgo> 618) <Pavitra> That was me being *nice*. I could have made the request by word of mouth to my My Little Pony toys and it would count.
21:57:30 <HackEgo> 256) <oklopol> zzo38: you missed the point. the point was way stupider than that.
21:57:33 <HackEgo> 857) <zzo38> Can you vote for just the green party or rainbow party instead of both? <kmc> nope, it is the same party <zzo38> That is the problem with political parties.
21:57:49 <HackEgo> *poof* <Cheery> when I command it to do couple useful operations it instead mutilates my cock.
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22:16:19 <HackEgo> 187) * pikhq sticks several thousand kg m^2/A s^3 through elliot <elliott> pikhq: I'm underage!
22:16:48 <HackEgo> 19) <bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to have two heads
22:16:49 <HackEgo> 726) <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, if you wrote a Haskell book, I would read it and possibly provide classical criticism. <shachaf> That is to say, non-constructive.
22:16:56 <HackEgo> 724) <itidus21> the possession of diamonds by the bourgeois is more about establishing their bourgeoisness more than wanting a malleable metal <itidus21> oops i forgot i said diamonds instead of gold
22:16:57 <HackEgo> 192) <elliott> oerjan: What, can girls aim their penises better?
22:20:04 <kmc> 'oops i forgot i am wrong about everything'
22:20:32 <elliott> i'll let monqy decide b/c im lazy
22:20:53 <elliott> 19 can't be deleted for historic reasons
22:21:00 <HackEgo> *poof* * pikhq sticks several thousand kg m^2/A s^3 through elliot <elliott> pikhq: I'm underage!
22:21:20 <HackEgo> 424) <oklofok> god created the natural numbers, the rationals were done by man and the work was finally completed (topologically) by satan himself
22:21:30 -!- nortti has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:21:56 <HackEgo> 32) <oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that.
22:22:02 <HackEgo> 776) * elliott is back not for killing purposes but here to kill people.
22:22:03 <HackEgo> 745) <itidus21> to think that i could accidently catch the bus with the person who wrote "###b#ott#les#of#b#eer o#n t#he #w#all#, ###lovely ###[[Esme]]ralda ###o#n ###t#h#e #b#ee#r..."
22:22:07 <HackEgo> 615) <Phantom_Hoover> http://i.imgur.com/dosYw.png <Phantom_Hoover> WELCOME TO FUCKING STEELROMANCED
22:22:37 <Phantom__Hoover> 615's just baffling if you don't know a fair bit of DF's format
22:22:41 <elliott> i wish 776 gave knowledge of its context to anyone who read it
22:23:00 <shachaf> context: "elliott = bad person?"
22:23:08 <HackEgo> 840) <kmc> the other day I bought a recycling can from amazon <kmc> it came in a cardboard box <kmc> i took the can out of the box, broke down the box, and put it in the can <kmc> it was amazing
22:23:10 -!- nortti has joined.
22:23:17 <ion> ∴ bad person = elliott
22:23:28 <kmc> yeah that was the best
22:23:32 <shachaf> ion: Don't you know how quotes work?
22:23:42 <shachaf> You can't shuffle things around if they're inside quotes.
22:23:51 <shachaf> "invincibility to the press"
22:24:09 <ion> shachaf: “a is equal to b” implies “b is equal to a”!
22:24:16 <FreeFull> shachaf: yes but you can cut them off
22:24:28 <shachaf> ion: I don't know what those funny “” things are.
22:24:35 <shachaf> But "a = b" doesn't imply "b = a".
22:24:41 <shachaf> It might be that a = b implies b = a.
22:24:47 <shachaf> But that's a totally different proposition!
22:24:49 <oerjan> > unwords . reverse . words $ "elliott = bad person"
22:25:31 <ion> λ> over (iso words unwords) reverse "elliott = bad person"
22:25:33 <ion> "person bad = elliott"
22:25:53 <monqy> hey im back was i supposed to make any decisions
22:25:57 <HackEgo> 365) <Phantom_Hoover> The eigenratio of reality has to be enormous, though.
22:26:27 <HackEgo> 245) <Gregor> I'm blond with blue (sort of) eyes, so I could totally stealth my way through the holocaust ... or some such logic :P
22:26:28 <HackEgo> 726) <fizzie> [...] and then you just shuffle the integral signs around a bit and hope no mathematicians notice.
22:26:31 <HackEgo> 635) <ais523> Just about all females often feel that exactly why all Hollywood stars common maintain its brightness as Tom in spite of frantic operate routine and large operate pressure from the skin. What do you think that they have got sufficient time to observe all attractiveness strategies and tips that his grandmother utilized to abide by?
22:26:34 <HackEgo> 582) <fungot> sadhu: it's been said that boole is the crowning jewel perched precariously upon the perfect peak of programmer prowess, casting its limitless limpid light over the loathesome lands of those who scuff and wallow in the dreary dust of digital depravity and unbounded wilful ignorance of the testament of our lord jesus christ into your life.
22:27:15 <oerjan> ...did ais523 just turn into fungot above
22:27:16 <fungot> oerjan: yeah and some funky symbol too) about how much you can abuse programs to get them in every area. if you're in something like bnf?
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22:27:53 <kmc> elliott: it's funny because it's about the holocaust
22:28:04 <oerjan> Gregor: elliott wants to apply the final solution to 245
22:28:27 -!- nortti has joined.
22:29:02 <HackEgo> *poof* <Gregor> I'm blond with blue (sort of) eyes, so I could totally stealth my way through the holocaust ... or some such logic :P
22:29:18 <HackEgo> 241) <ais523> OK, I give up, logging into Wikia is harder than writing a Firefox extension
22:29:27 <oerjan> we now have final proof elliott is hitler
22:29:43 <HackEgo> 698) <Phantom_Hoover> Incest, the enemy of graph theorists everywhere.
22:29:50 <HackEgo> 742) <fizzie> fungot: Feeling scrambled after all that? <fungot> fizzie: but it's much like new zealand, in my stone-age country, we still like you even if you're only using the new fnord
22:29:51 <HackEgo> 169) <cpressey> fizzie: I can never tell with OpenBSD! <cpressey> everything looks like an error anyway
22:29:55 <HackEgo> 62) <fungot> Oranjer: the taylor's series is also alternately fnord as follows ( i'm using the latex notation here): david ben gurion signed the compensation agreement with germany when there was considerable division over these issues, because these are speculations without " any historical basis".
22:30:21 <olsner> ooh, looks like macgyver is building an airplane again
22:30:49 <HackEgo> 158) <oklopol> comex: what? <oklopol> *vorpal <oklopol> comex: hi, tab-complete completed c to comex instead of Vorpal, dunno why
22:32:15 <monqy> i finished reading the scrollback
22:32:18 <HackEgo> 304) <pikhq> o.O <pikhq> There's a birth defect which results in the formation of a cloaca. <Gregor> It's called "not being a mammal" :P
22:32:40 <kmc> that's classist
22:32:52 <elliott> kmc thats literally the worst joke made today
22:33:06 <monqy> kmc that joke is bad
22:33:10 <kmc> and i should feel bad?
22:33:24 <elliott> kmc i like you don't make me ashamed of your jokes
22:33:24 <monqy> maybe just a tiny bit embarrassed
22:33:50 <elliott> monqy: have you chosen yet
22:33:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: qote: not found
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22:33:56 <HackEgo> 547) <itidus20> according to physics and maths can we theoretically have a box with infinite cookies inside?
22:34:13 <HackEgo> 587) <oerjan> i am sorry to disappoint you, but my musical taste is on the side abba, verdi, and celine dion. i know this may not be popular and that you would have preferred me to be a satanist.
22:34:42 <monqy> oh im starting to "get it"
22:34:47 <FreeFull> Money money money, must be funny, in a rich man's world
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22:35:00 <elliott> maybe monqy has the same musical taste as oerjan
22:35:00 <HackEgo> 125) <fungot> ais523: elf corpses are not considered expensive health food. but the most expensive.
22:35:00 <HackEgo> 485) <zzo38> What is miff-muffered moof? <itidus20> that's a tough question
22:35:01 <shachaf> monqy monqy monqy, must be funqy
22:35:03 <HackEgo> 816) <olsner> when everyone else was busy going "ewwww, comic sans!" I was reading the text and learned everything
22:35:03 <HackEgo> 245) <fizzie> file:///home/fis/src/chainlance/tapestats.png -- yes, I think it's nice that way when the edge is always the opponent's flag.
22:35:10 <monqy> elliott: no i dont...........
22:35:22 <elliott> monqy: you cant prove anything
22:35:26 <oerjan> also platypi and echidnae have cloacae, iirc
22:35:41 <fungot> Phantom__Hoover: is it possible compare scheme to other languages is not a function definition is handled by 10 fnord. " is this better than haskell
22:35:53 <HackEgo> 146) <cpressey> < ais523> then running repeatedly until you get the right sequence of random numbers < ais523> and just completely ignoring the input <-- some people live their entire lives this way, i reckon
22:35:53 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover: sexist?!?
22:35:56 <kmc> FreeFull: no really?
22:35:57 <FreeFull> And they don't have nipples, their skin secretes milk directly
22:36:00 <fungot> Phantom__Hoover: also for most other languages do), i don't think that would help in this channel for example. :)
22:36:02 <kmc> FreeFull: please tell me more irrelevant facts
22:36:06 <elliott> we're trying to delete quotes here
22:36:13 <elliott> please shut up about anything other than that and grilling monqy
22:36:17 <kmc> FreeFull: fungot is a bot
22:36:18 <fungot> kmc: the excel hack is countered by a ( thunk, type) pair.
22:36:19 <elliott> grilling kmc is acceptable too
22:36:24 <kmc> FreeFull: IRC is a form of internet relay chat
22:36:38 <FreeFull> kmc: Most IRC servers will respond to a help command
22:36:44 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
22:36:45 <kmc> fungot: help
22:36:46 <fungot> kmc: there is an ansi standard." maybe it is easier that... well, uhm. no. ...do i want to
22:36:53 <elliott> i give up let's try again and hope we don't get any about monqy's musical tastes
22:36:54 <kmc> good thinking fungot
22:36:55 <fungot> kmc: which strings??? cool, where can i find dybvig's paper? ( what's l's equivalent of begin?
22:37:00 <shachaf> kmc: It's like boats in an ocean, right?
22:37:05 <HackEgo> 611) <Phantom_Hoover> You know what annoys me about Deep Space 9. <Phantom_Hoover> It wasn't in deep space. <Phantom_Hoover> It was orbiting Bajor.
22:37:38 <HackEgo> 376) <Gregor> You just went from "no sexualized ads" to "we have ads for dildos, but they're different for ads for Orangina" X-D
22:37:43 <HackEgo> 343) <Sgeo> Oracle's awesome
22:37:53 <HackEgo> 733) <itidus21> ok in other words, its a lot easier to reason about 2^43112609-1 apples by using the text "2^43112609-1" than it is to actually produce 2^43112609-1 apples
22:37:53 <HackEgo> 809) <zzo38> Is mathematics a lifeform? <itidus20> zzo38: i'm looking into something interesting(debatable) which might be up your alley(debatable). warioware diy ... being a proprietry game about making games i know it's not extremely relevant here(debatable), but it's <insert gibberish term> <zzo38> itidus20: I don't know.
22:38:21 <shachaf> but not good enough for us
22:38:24 <HackEgo> 645) <ais523> also, why isn't monqy from Hexham? his name sounds like he should be
22:38:28 <elliott> you're violating procedure!!
22:38:31 <HackEgo> *poof* <Sgeo> Oracle's awesome
22:38:38 <elliott> it's there to commemorate that time sgeo said that
22:38:59 <monqy> but why did sgeo say it???
22:39:01 <Sgeo_> I have no idea what context I would possibly say that in.
22:39:04 <monqy> there so much left unanswered
22:39:07 <HackEgo> 813) <oklopol> i don't get how people are afraid of parachute jumping but they routinely drive a car in fucking traffic
22:39:09 <Phantom__Hoover> so since everyone's going off topic i'm just going to comment on the fact that farscape continues to wow me in the field of blatant s&m scenes
22:39:35 <Sgeo_> Can the revert be reverted, Emacs-style?
22:39:36 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unrevert: not found
22:39:37 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rerevert: not found
22:39:39 <HackEgo> 269) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: mutation is often considerably harder for both humans and compilers can analyze it much more difficult' part that induces bloody vomit... huh....intriguing
22:39:54 <HackEgo> 663) <oerjan> wolfram armageddon, the genius overlord game
22:39:56 <HackEgo> 533) <elliott_> now that we've cleared that up let us hug fungot = <fungot> elliott_: let's not start that again."
22:39:57 <HackEgo> 616) <ais523> it's not a list of /all/ interesting esolangs, btw; otherwise you can take the first command from the first esolang, the second from the second, the third from the third, etc, then add 1 to all of them <ais523> and you get a new interesting esolang <ais523> diagonal principle…
22:40:19 <shachaf> imo 616 would be better without the third part
22:40:26 <kmc> that 809 is a true meeting of the minds
22:41:02 <monqy> are any of these quotes numbered correctly
22:41:08 <monqy> "it's hard to tell"
22:41:32 <HackEgo> 687) <Phantom_Hoover> Here in Scotland we have a rigorous and well-tested theory of brothels.
22:42:05 <HackEgo> 809) <zzo38> Is mathematics a lifeform? <itidus20> zzo38: i'm looking into something interesting(debatable) which might be up your alley(debatable). warioware diy ... being a proprietry game about making games i know it's not extremely relevant here(debatable), but it's <insert gibberish term> <zzo38> itidus20: I don't know.
22:42:07 <HackEgo> 62) <fungot> Oranjer: the taylor's series is also alternately fnord as follows ( i'm using the latex notation here): david ben gurion signed the compensation agreement with germany when there was considerable division over these issues, because these are speculations without " any historical basis".
22:42:14 <HackEgo> 764) <ais523> and then I spent much of the rest of the time trying to work out how to implement 3D Hashlife efficiently when at least one of the colors has free will
22:42:15 <HackEgo> 397) <oklopol> [...] only the hamster's nervous system was tortured. although probably torturing a large logical gate constitutes a horrible thing to do if it comes in a cute container.
22:43:08 <olsner> I don't like 809 anymore
22:43:31 <monqy> i doubt i'll ever not like 809
22:45:22 <monqy> they're all "above the bar" but maybe some are only hanging by a chin?
22:45:33 <fungot> elliott: in emacs you can select from. i think i get the tex sources. he never continued the web server
22:46:39 <HackEgo> *poof* <fungot> Oranjer: the taylor's series is also alternately fnord as follows ( i'm using the latex notation here): david ben gurion signed the compensation agreement with germany when there was considerable division over these issues, because these are speculations without " any historical basis".
22:46:56 <HackEgo> 532) <fungot> elliott_: it's a machine that looks like you!
22:47:19 <olsner> that's another fungot quote
22:47:20 <fungot> olsner: the resource may not be able to use it yet, but it's hardly userfriendly to install documentation with no obvious way
22:47:31 <HackEgo> 55) <Madelon> both of you, quit it with the f-bombs. <Madelon> kaelis: what's the matter? something censoring stuff you're interested in?
22:47:34 <HackEgo> 707) <NihilistDandy> Benchmarks are only a good measure of surprise
22:47:35 <HackEgo> 464) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it is a hate so pure and... pumpkin seeds?
22:47:36 <HackEgo> 565) <Gregor> Hulu's movie selection is like MST3K without the MST3K characters.
22:48:58 -!- Phantom__Hoover has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
22:49:25 <monqy> it's not as good as that other joke
22:50:06 <monqy> the one about censorship where the joke is the joke gets spoiled?? it's complicated
22:50:21 <elliott> you mean the one that goes "censorshi"
22:50:24 <elliott> or the other one that i forget
22:50:54 <monqy> the one where ais says something about something zzo said
22:51:53 <monqy> have you seen hulu's movie selection
22:52:26 <elliott> monqy: i haven't. should i
22:52:32 <elliott> hulu isn't really available in my country......
22:52:40 <shachaf> elliott: switch to a better country
22:52:46 <shachaf> elliott: your country is unamerican btw
22:53:00 <kmc> did you know, america is the only country with freedom
22:53:07 <kmc> it's really quite an advantage
22:53:36 <shachaf> kmc: well it's also the best country
22:54:08 <monqy> elliott: if you want to understand 565 it would help
22:54:13 <tswett> Sgeo_: Sine is not down.
22:54:36 <Sgeo_> Was it down before?
22:54:48 <monqy> shachaf..............................
22:55:00 <HackEgo> 393) <Sgeo> Will anyone be irritated if I tend to disconnect and reconnect a lot? [...] <oerjan> we _almost_ have an established policy that bots will be banned it they do that. which means we might have to administer a turing test to sgeo, and that could get ugly.
22:55:01 <tswett> Sgeo_: looks like it hasn't been down in the past 24 hours.
22:55:34 <HackEgo> 413) * Sgeo is risking massive forest fires <Sgeo> The bacon is worth it
22:55:34 <HackEgo> 280) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something
22:55:36 -!- Arc_Koen has joined.
22:55:38 <HackEgo> 520) <Phantom_Hoover> FFS, building a perpetual motion machine should not be this hard.
22:55:40 <HackEgo> 472) <fizzie> I suck at the gravitron, I have survived something like 15 seconds in it at most.
22:56:16 <HackEgo> *poof* <fizzie> I suck at the gravitron, I have survived something like 15 seconds in it at most.
22:56:35 <HackEgo> 528) <oerjan> theorem prover yada yada halting problem.
22:56:40 <HackEgo> 115) <Mathnerd314> Gregor-P: I don't think lambda calculus is powerful enough
22:57:08 <elliott> both of those are good tho
22:57:17 <HackEgo> 769) <Taneb> may I use my phone says it's nick to clarify
22:57:17 <HackEgo> 721) * Phantom_Hoover moves 0.5 Phantom_Hoover into the Atlantic, and captures fizzie's upper body with 0.5 Phantom_Hoover. <fizzie> Glurk.
22:57:20 <HackEgo> 502) <fizzie> That's the stupidest thing I've heard all morning. (Though I did wake up five minutes ago, so I haven't had a chance to hear very much.) <fizzie> The "Why are you still asleep? I told the cat to wake you up." comment does come pretty close, though.
22:57:21 <HackEgo> 747) <Sgeo_> Why does CL get called functional? <oerjan> it's sort of like how you call ancient greece democratic.
22:57:55 <elliott> monqy: my positions: 502 is good, 528 is good, 115 is good, apathetic about 721, 769 is not very good
22:58:12 <HackEgo> *poof* <Taneb> may I use my phone says it's nick to clarify
22:58:27 <HackEgo> 88) <ais523> (still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?)
22:58:29 <HackEgo> 21) <oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird has taste
22:58:51 <Sgeo_> Is there supposed to be a joke in 88?
22:58:53 <HackEgo> 42) <Deewiant> I spent the last minute or so killing myself repeatedly
22:58:53 <HackEgo> 307) <elliott> ais523: YOU WILL HAVE YOUR QUOTE SOON
22:58:56 <HackEgo> 610) <fizzie> If you jump a car from a ramp and hit the wall of a building, in midair, you tend to get ejected up and fly to the sky-ceiling, then slowly slide at that height to one corner of the world; then you land, make a complicated spinning-around thing for a while, and then explode. <fizzie> Also probably works in real life?
22:59:24 <elliott> 610 is good, 42 is good, 21 has historical value, I like 42 personally
22:59:36 <Sgeo_> Unless "N-Gage" is some pseudoscientific spiritual mumbo-jumbo, I don't get it.
23:00:04 <elliott> i retract my position on 88
23:00:22 <Sgeo_> Oh, it's a cell phone gaming thing apparently
23:01:28 <elliott> `addquote <HackEgo> 88) <ais523> (still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?) [...] <Sgeo_> Is there supposed to be a joke in 88? <Sgeo_> Unless "N-Gage" is some pseudoscientific spiritual mumbo-jumbo, I don't get it. <Sgeo_> Oh, it's a cell phone gaming thing apparently
23:01:32 <HackEgo> 856) <HackEgo> 88) <ais523> (still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?) [...] <Sgeo_> Is there supposed to be a joke in 88? <Sgeo_> Unless "N-Gage" is some pseudoscientific spiritual mumbo-jumbo, I don't get it. <Sgeo_> Oh, it's a cell phone gaming thing apparently
23:01:33 <elliott> adding a quote is like deleting one
23:01:49 <Sgeo_> "N-Gage attempted to lure gamers away from the Game Boy Advance by including cellphone functionality. This was unsuccessful, partly because the buttons, designed for a phone, were not well-suited for gaming and when used as a phone the original N-Gage was described as resembling a "taco"."
23:01:53 <olsner> Sgeo_: iirc, that was long before "cell phone gaming thing" managed to become a thing
23:01:57 <HackEgo> 119) <AnMaster> oerjan, can you ever get any number higher than 3 at the start of "ordinary" [look-and-say sequences]? <ais523> it's not clear from the RFCs
23:02:26 <HackEgo> 415) <oklopol> you know that thing in the movies where they put a pillow on someone's face and try to suffocate them <oklopol> that doesn't work. <oklopol> we tried that with my ex once, but we just couldn't kill each other that way
23:02:31 <HackEgo> 799) <itidus21> you are like the linux torvalds of quiz engines
23:02:33 <HackEgo> 55) <Madelon> both of you, quit it with the f-bombs. <Madelon> kaelis: what's the matter? something censoring stuff you're interested in?
23:02:33 <HackEgo> 91) <AnMaster> fungot!*@* added to ignore list. <fungot> AnMaster: i'd find that a bit annoying to wait for an ack.
23:03:34 <monqy> whats with 55 [again]
23:03:55 <olsner> unless it has context that makes it good, it's bad
23:03:55 <HackEgo> 55) <Madelon> both of you, quit it with the f-bombs. <Madelon> kaelis: what's the matter? something censoring stuff you're interested in?
23:04:11 <Sgeo_> I could ask in Sine about the context
23:04:13 <olsner> shachaf: it's the one about f-bombs and censoring
23:04:34 <shachaf> monqy: i prefer p-bombs personally
23:05:18 <olsner> I like them pu-bombs and u-bombs
23:05:22 <shachaf> remember when monqy was all like
23:05:23 <shachaf> You smile, you flirt, you ask questions and listen patiently in a friendly, non-committal/unneedy sort of way. You let the conversation develop, sometimes helping it along. You laugh at the right jokes, you fire back witty (but not to witty) remarks, your eyes take on a extra little sparkle and then, it happens. The 'P' Bomb.
23:06:13 <monqy> did you miss our p-bomb discussion
23:06:53 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: p bomb = cherry pastry with a cherry bomb
23:06:57 <HackEgo> 597) <Phantom__Hoover> Also you steal Berwick from us and then say you don't want it? <Ngevd> You stole it from us first!
23:07:21 <Sgeo_> I'm currently being told context for 55
23:07:35 <HackEgo> 246) <elliott> lol @ closed character set standard <elliott> "What does this codepoint represent?" "Nobody knows."
23:07:37 <HackEgo> 789) <monqy> moral of the story with enough peer pressure nything is possible
23:07:38 <HackEgo> 152) <Phantom_Hoover> It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit! <alise> WRONG 8 WEEKS
23:07:39 <HackEgo> 822) <itidus21> world peace is for fascists
23:07:53 <shachaf> elliott: @ closed character set standard?
23:08:25 <olsner> "What does this @ represent?" "Nobody knows."
23:08:48 <Sgeo_> 'Kaelis used to snap at Madelon sometimes whenever she got involved at all in conversations he was in.'
23:09:19 <olsner> that's ... not very convincing evidence
23:10:56 <Sgeo_> What were those things called. Franklin something. Had a keyboard and removable cartridge
23:12:58 <elliott> `addquote <HackEgo> 55) <Madelon> both of you, quit it with the f-bombs. <Madelon> kaelis: what's the matter? something censoring stuff you're interested in? [...] <monqy> whats with 55 [again] <Sgeo_> It's from Sine. <Sgeo_> I could ask in Sine about the context [...] <Sgeo_> I'm currently being told context for 55 <Phantom_Hoover> do tell <Sgeo_> 'Kaelis used to snap at Madelon sometimes whenever she got involved at all in conversations h
23:13:05 <HackEgo> 857) <HackEgo> 55) <Madelon> both of you, quit it with the f-bombs. <Madelon> kaelis: what's the matter? something censoring stuff you're interested in? [...] <monqy> whats with 55 [again] <Sgeo_> It's from Sine. <Sgeo_> I could ask in Sine about the context [...] <Sgeo_> I'm currently being told context for 55 <Phantom_Hoover> do tell <Sgeo_> 'Kaelis used to snap at Madelon sometimes whenever she got involved at all in conversations h
23:13:13 <HackEgo> *poof* <HackEgo> 55) <Madelon> both of you, quit it with the f-bombs. <Madelon> kaelis: what's the matter? something censoring stuff you're interested in? [...] <monqy> whats with 55 [again] <Sgeo_> It's from Sine. <Sgeo_> I could ask in Sine about the context [...] <Sgeo_> I'm currently being told context for 55 <Phantom_Hoover> do tell <Sgeo_> 'Kaelis used to snap at Madelon sometimes whenever she got involved at all in conversations h
23:13:35 <Sgeo_> https://www.google.com/search?q=Franklin+devices&rlz=1C1TSND_enUS401US401&aq=f&oq=Franklin+devices&aqs=chrome.0.57j60l2j0l3.5016&sugexp=chrome,mod=17&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&tbo=d&rlz=1C1TSND_enUS401US401&sclient=psy-ab&q=franklin+spanish+english+translator&oq=Franklin+Spanish+English&gs_l=serp.3.0.0l2j0i30l2.54459.56839.1.58044.15.13.0.0.0.0.788.2808.3j7j0j1j1j0j1.13.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1._KzrcpcL
23:13:35 <Sgeo_> Ly0&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=ff999713c9217bd7&bpcl=38897761&biw=1366&bih=667
23:13:43 <Sgeo_> ...wtf at all the garbage in the URL
23:13:56 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:14:28 -!- copumpkin has joined.
23:15:28 <Sgeo_> http://www.franklin.com/book-cards
23:16:19 <elliott> i've never understood a Sgeo_ link less
23:16:53 <Sgeo_> As a kid I had a device that accepted those cards
23:17:24 <pikhq_> ... Why would anyone *buy* one of those?
23:18:29 <Arc_Koen> is that like, a franklin the turtle usb drive?
23:18:44 <Phantom_Hoover> who would have supervised the things sgeo owned as a child
23:19:02 <Sgeo_> http://www.amazon.com/Franklin-Spanish-English-Dictionary-Bookman/dp/B000034D68 except that's a card, not the device itself. Wouldn't have had that card because the device was natively a Spanish/English dictionary
23:19:20 <Sgeo_> So that particular card would be unnecessary.
23:19:25 <Sgeo_> But if I wanted to do other things
23:19:29 <olsner> why would you have a spanish/english dictionary?
23:20:03 <Phantom_Hoover> americans are dimly aware that there is a language other than english, and some of them even know it's called 'spanish'
23:20:27 <olsner> you're not thinking of "swedish" are you? because that's not even a language
23:21:26 <olsner> I'm currently watching star wars
23:21:58 <Sgeo_> model ssa-840 but the one I found is the wrong book
23:22:39 <Sgeo_> It looks like http://www.iltech.org/Classifieds/DRSItemDetails.aspx?Id=1206
23:22:50 <Sgeo_> But different labels on the colored buttons
23:23:01 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
23:23:08 <Sgeo_> And a tilde over the N button
23:23:57 <oerjan> jag har en dålig känsla om detta
23:24:34 <olsner> "dålig känsla" låter som direktöversatt engelska
23:25:11 <olsner> tror det är mer idiomatiskt att ha "onda aningar" om någonting
23:25:14 <oerjan> ...busted. although coincidentally, those were the only two words i couldn't think of myself...
23:25:25 <olsner> then again, who knows ... this swedish thing is dying out anyway
23:26:22 <oerjan> also the idiomatic norwegian _would_ be "dårlig følelse"
23:27:10 <oerjan> dårlig doesn't mean foolish in norwegian, just bad
23:27:26 <oerjan> although it obviously does come from dåre, meaning fool
23:27:57 <kmc> elliott: what am i right about?
23:28:45 <kmc> i'm right about yes
23:30:40 <HackEgo> 425) <Taneb> Someone with that sort of grasp of logic shouldn't be allowed anything more computationally powerful than a plastic spoon
23:31:13 <HackEgo> 258) <Phantom__Hoover> Gregor, yeah, but Purdue has poultry science facilities beyond the dreams of avarice.
23:31:16 <HackEgo> 7) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that.
23:31:21 <HackEgo> 232) <Vorpal> !bfjoust test (-)*10000 <EgoBot> Score for Vorpal_test: 12.9 <Vorpal> yay
23:31:22 <HackEgo> 173) <pikhq> Give me a beaver and I'll put it to work.
23:31:35 * pikhq_ finds the non-Americans funny
23:32:22 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: the "americans are dimly aware" thing?
23:33:45 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, was that a lead-up or just a solitary statement
23:34:08 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Solitary statement.
23:34:19 <pikhq_> "Lawl, you guys talking on Thanksgiving"
23:34:25 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: learnt what?
23:34:33 <olsner> pikhq_: talking on what?
23:35:10 <HackEgo> *poof* <pikhq> Give me a beaver and I'll put it to work.
23:35:42 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq_, wait, are you not meant to talk on thanksgiving
23:35:44 <HackEgo> 708) <Phantom_Hoover> I had a dream last night where I got hit by a van but the van had a brain uploader in it and I was uploaded and I angsted because I was stuck spending eternity with singularitarians?
23:35:49 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i'm sorry dårlig doesn't mean jesus, what the heck made you think that?
23:35:55 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: You're meant to be stuffed to the gills.
23:35:56 <olsner> meanwhile in europe, not a single thanks was given
23:36:05 <oerjan> (also i was slightly in backscroll)
23:36:09 <HackEgo> 357) <ais523> I think I managed something like a one-expression increment that was only a few hundred characters long
23:36:12 <HackEgo> 103) <pikhq> And... WTF is it doing. <pikhq> :( <Sgeo_> Is it sexing?
23:36:18 <HackEgo> 679) <zzo38> The book "Science Made Stupid" ends with a list of things that might happen in the future (some already have), one of them is a woman president. Some things in the list are reasonable but a few are just funny instead.
23:36:19 <HackEgo> 227) <ais523> gah, why does lose keep winning?
23:36:58 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
23:37:18 <pikhq_> Here we *also* do that at Christmas.
23:37:21 <oerjan> pikhq_: americans have gills? you learn something new every week!
23:37:50 <pikhq_> oerjan: Yeah, we're not actually human.
23:38:14 <oerjan> i guess that lovecraft story was true, then.
23:45:51 <Phantom_Hoover> btw get dfhack, it now makes the ingame interface waaaay better
23:46:28 <Phantom_Hoover> it adds text search to the unit lists, an ingame version of dwarf therapist
23:46:33 <elliott> btw do you need to do something to unhack your raws to get our stuff compatible
23:47:00 -!- Jafet has joined.
23:47:14 <elliott> is there a screenshot of this in-game dt
23:48:06 <Sgeo_> There's an ingame version of dt?
23:48:09 <Phantom_Hoover> just imagine dt's spreadsheet interface, except in ansii
23:48:29 <Sgeo_> Is this part of DF proper, or part of dfhack?
23:48:55 <Phantom_Hoover> it's not quite a replacement for dt but it's a lot nicer to use if you just want to twiddle a few labours
23:52:35 <HackEgo> 400) <monqy> it was a wonderful dream <monqy> i died in it <monqy> that's how it started
23:52:38 <HackEgo> 265) * Received a CTCP VERSION from nyuszika7h * VERSION Microsoft IRC# 2011 64-bit (Windows 8 Beta, x64, 2GB RAM) <nyuszika7h> Gregor: Windows 8 Beta? o_O <Gregor> A small benefit of my brief time as an intern at MS.
23:53:00 <HackEgo> 523) <Phantom_Hoover> The fact that the elves will be happy with this will hopefully be counteracted by the fact that I plan to drop them into the magma cistern.
23:53:03 <HackEgo> 799) <Gregor> `log [o]klopol wasn't usually nude
23:53:04 <HackEgo> 7) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that.
23:53:44 <olsner> `log [o]klopol wasn't usually nude
23:54:11 <olsner> hmm, is that supposed to do something?
23:54:56 <oerjan> of course not, you cannot search for a blatantly false statement
23:57:43 <tswett> I think I'm going to make a major change to the way that I type. So major.
23:58:38 <tswett> I see that my change is so drastic that you have decided to sarcastically point it out by asking a rhetorical question.
23:58:54 <olsner> are you going to start using a keyboard?
23:59:13 <Phantom_Hoover> i made a small change to my handwriting recently which has immensely improved my appreciation of it
23:59:27 <tswett> Nah, I started using a keyboard about three years ago. This is a much more major and drastic change.
23:59:42 <elliott> what did you use before three years ago
23:59:58 <HackEgo> 173) <oklopol> well i just ate some stuff and watched family guy <oklopol> and i own a piano <oklopol> and i'm not wearing socks \ 438) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry
00:00:18 <tswett> Yes, those quotes are definitely very relevant to the fact that I used to type on a piano.
00:00:51 <olsner> istr we removed quote 88
00:00:58 <tswett> I will try to stop shachaf.
00:01:03 <tswett> I'm not sure if that worked.
00:01:03 <HackEgo> 88) <ais523> (still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?)
00:01:15 <HackEgo> /bin/sh: Can't open /hackenv/bin/allquotes
00:01:17 <tswett> shachaf: I'm not sure.
00:01:29 <tswett> shachaf: ask Phantom_Hoover.
00:01:35 <ais523> shachaf: please stop spamming the bots
00:01:38 <olsner> ah, we didn't delete 88, we just made another quote about it
00:01:39 <HackEgo> /bin/sh: Can't open /hackenv/bin/allquotes
00:02:17 <ion> Why not Zoidberg?
00:02:46 <ais523> shachaf: there's a tradition where we request exactly five quotes then delete one
00:02:46 <tswett> I don't like how HackEgo renumbers a quote any time a prior quote is deleted.
00:02:50 <ais523> even that gets spammy after a while
00:03:04 <shachaf> What about requesting 10 quotes and deleting two.
00:03:05 <ais523> requesting that many in a row is ridiculous, though
00:03:05 <tswett> There's also a tradition where HackEgo is really slow.
00:03:14 <shachaf> That method is clearly superior.
00:03:19 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, you're talking about a system designed by someone who implemented fortune by selecting a random line in the quotes file and seeking back to the separator.
00:03:19 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
00:03:31 <HackEgo> 623) <zzo38> Can you file for univorce if you are unmarried and don't like yourself anymore?
00:03:33 <shachaf> ais523: You get more choice, so you can delete worse quotes on average.
00:03:34 <HackEgo> 115) <Mathnerd314> Gregor-P: I don't think lambda calculus is powerful enough
00:03:41 <HackEgo> 15) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE.
00:03:41 <HackEgo> 638) <Darth_Cliche> There's British KFC? Kent Fried Chicken?
00:03:41 <HackEgo> 823) <fungot> olsner: over the undertow! under the overpass! around the future and not just fnord for example. it's just the syntax
00:03:41 <HackEgo> 747) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: gsi-ffs.scm just has a tendency to give procedures meaningful, spelled out, names, unlike " fnord)"
00:03:41 <HackEgo> 182) <Phantom_Hoover> OK, let's reduce the human genome to 4 chromosomes, in 2 homologous pairs.
00:03:41 <HackEgo> 188) <Sgeo> My quotes are boring
00:03:47 <HackEgo> 277) <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: parents who put just "Chris" on a birth certificate are... like parents who put just "Bob" on a birth certificate.
00:03:48 <HackEgo> 50) <apollo> Maternal instincts? <apollo> Don't you just leave the thing in a box until it starts crying, and then shake it until it stops? \ 278) <Phantom_Hoover> ZOMGMODULES, St. Christopher, saint and werewolf. \ 289) <oklopol> and then there's the slightly annoying one where suddenly, i start rolling forward and i can't stop <oklopol> like i can be having some great sex dream or whatever and then suddenly "oh
00:03:56 <shachaf> ais523: And there's less of the noise-spam that happens between `quotes.
00:05:22 <tswett> "I certify that ____ ____ ____ was born to parents ____ ____ ____ and ____ ____ ____ here in ____ this ____ day of ____, CHRIS."
00:05:40 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: It boots up a VM and installs Debian on it before running your program.
00:06:25 <Phantom_Hoover> but it's actually just running with a patched libc or something, no?
00:07:20 <oerjan> *"I certify that CHRIS ____ ____ was born to parents CHRIS ____ ____ and CHRIS ____ ____ here in CHRIS this CHRIS day of CHRIS, CHRIS."
00:09:22 <olsner> it might be doing a clean checkout of that hg repo for every command, then committing whatever changes the command made
00:09:49 <olsner> don't think that would be that slow though
00:10:19 <elliott> olsner: it's doing that + starting linux
00:11:50 <olsner> oh great, this is one of those indiana jones episodes
00:14:04 <olsner> featuring: germans, russians, macgyver and traps
00:15:37 <Phantom_Hoover> 175 units of forgotten beast meat, sitting out in the open to rot
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00:23:36 <Phantom_Hoover> i forgot to actually make the bridges into my fortress retractible
00:23:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: oh: not found
00:27:19 <HackEgo> 549) <oklopol> king is something women are better at than men
00:27:50 <HackEgo> 417) <Taneb> I can't afford one of those! <Taneb> A grandchild, not a laser printer
00:27:56 <HackEgo> 768) <tswett> ais523: well, Dylan said "hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows", and then Lawlabee said "'cuz it's pretty awesome." <tswett> Except that by "it", Lawlabee was referring to something entirely different. <tswett> So when I added that quote, Lawlabee emotifrowned.
00:27:59 <HackEgo> 537) <fungot> elliott: mr president, commissioner, i fully accept that description when it comes to human rights. yes, with an average fat content of chocolate, and we are using double standards! we all know that under present legislation and also in relation to standardization bodies. if i do not want.
00:28:01 <HackEgo> 289) <oklopol> and then there's the slightly annoying one where suddenly, i start rolling forward and i can't stop <oklopol> like i can be having some great sex dream or whatever and then suddenly "oh god not this again" <oklopol> (i go "not this again" but not necessarily realize it's a dream)
00:29:48 <Phantom_Hoover> yes mayor this is the opportune moment to declare a party
00:30:22 <oerjan> we shall found... the Cheese Party!
00:30:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: im going to start the df fort in a few minutes but
00:30:25 <elliott> ive forgotten how to play df entirely
00:31:25 <elliott> monqy: ugh have you seen termcast brogue
00:31:33 <elliott> i like to play `hugeterm faketerm df'
00:31:34 <monqy> ive seen termcast df yes
00:31:46 <elliott> 80x25 df sounds unplayable
00:32:02 <monqy> i forget, did i termcast df adventure mode when i played it
00:32:35 <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile, shachaf is whipping sorry motherfuckers apart left right and centre
00:32:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's pretty much how any first df adventure mode experience goes
00:33:47 <elliott> monqy: any opinions on the quotes btw
00:34:01 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Rename that dwarf!
00:34:56 <oerjan> it's their rude winking at him
00:35:34 <monqy> elliott: #1 problem is my eyes keep glazing over, so to speak, when i try reading 537
00:36:22 <tswett> fungot: hey, what are those corpora you can use, again?
00:36:22 <fungot> tswett: it is as bad as please. the channel secretary will mail you the bill. :)
00:36:32 <tswett> fungot: thanks in advance.
00:36:32 <fungot> tswett: ( i threw in the python-style slicing e.g. ( is that a computer cannot do?
00:36:33 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
00:36:44 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, req. that you at least enable scourges in the raws
00:36:56 <fungot> Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011)
00:37:00 <fungot> tswett: but i've got great names for everyone else's hypothetical sons! anything that comes out and people want to know
00:38:28 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what do those do again
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00:41:19 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: im going to leave the raws unchanged
00:41:21 <elliott> u r going to have to deal w/ it
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00:45:54 <HackEgo> sivoais: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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00:49:30 <tswett> fungot: can I have another one svp?
00:49:31 <fungot> tswett: are you in this house, god? i am!
00:49:40 <tswett> fungot: I dunno. One more svp.
00:50:07 <tswett> fungot: well? Don't just ignore me svp.
00:50:20 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1 let t=t+1
00:52:12 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Hmm, was that an impostor a couple of days ago?
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01:42:46 <kmc> fungot: hug
01:42:47 <fungot> kmc: looks more to me like a bush. my first play is more abstract, for you see, i ran this exercise! i also like to say hello
01:43:14 <fungot> shachaf: alternate universe, that's " law and order". and it doesn't have to be shakespeare. how's the weather up there so it makes sense, dromiceiomimus! anyway, if i did, good! cause you're just walking around, chatting with their friends, being attractive in the media
01:44:07 <Jafet> fungot knows about the dromiceiomimus
01:44:08 <fungot> Jafet: i don't think i ever want to be on to something like this, if people saw me on a mountaineering tale of the star of the story! choose from! and if i ever turn into a werewolf, i would definitely rate her current attractiveness as at least, i've never remembered them and they've never been enough to wake me up, which amounts to pretty much, yeah, i was there, encouraging when i see a jerk sitting, cautious in your movemen
01:45:10 <shachaf> kmc: Should I listen to Alice's Restaurant today?
01:45:11 <fungot> Jafe: i think, as a people, have been responsible. it'll all come flooding, then i'll certainly be blue! because
01:45:20 <kmc> tswett: you used to type on a piano?
01:45:29 <kmc> shachaf: today and every day
01:45:54 <shachaf> Jafet: How did you do that?
01:46:09 <shachaf> kmc: Have you been to the restaurant?
01:46:17 <shachaf> It's in MA somewhere, isn't it?
01:46:46 <kmc> i have not
01:47:05 <kmc> that is at the other end of massachusetts :(
01:47:35 <shachaf> Are there any trains stopping there?
01:47:55 <kmc> i could take the train to albany and bike
01:47:56 <Jafet> fungot: check check, i am making sense? reverse duck nailed on the fnord, we examine it gravely
01:47:57 <fungot> Jafet: oh, but i was never going to. but, i do know that others may live a real life it'll be a great show. people can call me...
01:50:26 <kmc> or to pittsfield actually
01:51:27 <shachaf> kmc: Did you know they made an Alice's Restaurant film?
01:51:38 <shachaf> Featuring Officer Obie as Officer Obie.
01:51:47 <kmc> less than 4 hours
01:53:28 <Arc_Koen> à égalité avec Window of Opportunity je pense
01:53:39 <Arc_Koen> merci coppro de m'avoir poussé à continuer
01:57:28 <Arc_Koen> I was saying, thank you coppro for talking me into watching the last two seasons of sg-1
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02:00:25 <tswett> kmc: I used to type on a device with 88 keys. A piano is a device with 88 keys.
02:00:33 <tswett> Therefore, it is possible to logically conclude that I used to type on a piano.
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02:02:13 <kmc> i was hoping for a cooler answer than that, sorry
02:02:48 <Jafet> Yamaha makes keyboards with 88 keys; therefore, it can be concluded that this sentence makes no sense
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02:16:42 <tswett> kmc: feel free to come up with a cooler answer.
02:19:47 <kmc> the cooler answer would be that you had a MIDI keyboard hooked up to your computer and were using it to type in some clever way
02:20:05 <kmc> not just "one key per character" but like sweet chords and such
02:20:35 <Jafet> Imagine using emacs with that
02:21:16 <kmc> obviously you would use pedals for control and meta
02:22:22 <pikhq_> tswett removed 17 of the alphabet characters from his keyboard.
02:22:24 <Jafet> "I sprained my ankles the other day." "How?"
02:24:06 <shachaf> I am currently two keys short of a full keyboard.
02:24:54 <shachaf> (...If you know what I mean.)
02:25:51 <kmc> i should buy the kinesis foot pedals
02:30:40 <elliott> kmc: can someone direct me to the list of available IRC commands for this channel? seems to be unique (restricted), relative to other channels.
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03:11:23 <tswett> kmc: yeah, I like that idea.
03:11:27 <tswett> Should be easy enough to implement.
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03:12:40 <tswett> First, say that there are 31 characters that you can type by pressing some combination of the notes C through G.
03:12:50 <tswett> Make them octave-independent, so that you can alternate between hands.
03:14:04 <tswett> You could make other characters using black keys, right? Say that D, E, and G can be flatted, giving you three options for those letters instead of two, so that brings you up to... 107 characters.
03:14:29 <tswett> Which is more than the number of ASCII printable characters, so you should be more or less in business.
03:14:31 <Bike> what about the other two notes in the octave...?
03:15:18 <tswett> As and Bs can be modifiers, if you want.
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04:04:19 <shachaf> elliott: Solved the unsafeCoerce!
04:09:27 <monqy> "just use unsafeCoerce :: (Functor f) => f a -> f b"
04:10:07 <shachaf> The solution is fmap (const undefined)
04:10:15 <shachaf> elliott: "btw this function never actually gets called ever"
04:10:33 <elliott> is https://github.com/ekmett/lens/commit/529aa2e6992de1c1a91ae58bc77e29381cb1de00 the wrong commit
04:10:35 <shachaf> "should i feel foolish now"
04:10:50 <elliott> and why is it (<$) undefined rather than just undefined
04:10:55 <shachaf> Yes, that's when I told edwardk "you can use fmap undefined" and he read it as "fmap unsafeCoerce"
04:11:37 <monqy> instance Gettable g => Gettable (EvilBazaar a b g) where
04:12:02 <shachaf> monqy: "who needs the where"
04:12:16 <elliott> who needs the random double quotes around every sentence
04:13:52 <monqy> "yeah who needs them"
04:14:56 <shachaf> 'Haddock' seems to 'require' 'them'
04:15:22 <kmc> http://windows95tips.tumblr.com/
04:20:51 <ion> It’s just as i remember.
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04:26:01 <shachaf> kmc: Wasn't Windows 95 great?
04:27:42 <shachaf> http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcdjm3MIdo1rehruqo1_500.png
04:29:29 <ion> Now that BazaarT’s Gettable doesn’t use unsafeCoerce, couldn’t one just have a single Bazaar and document it with “plz don’t make stupid Gettable instances, kthxbye”?
04:29:47 <shachaf> I think I brought that up in #-blah
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06:17:49 <elliott> shachaf: is edwardk really adding this abomination
06:20:17 <shachaf> elliott: "should i fight it"
06:20:51 <elliott> fight for it to not take the name field :P
06:24:44 <ion> There’s about ⅓ chance he’s trolling us.
06:26:56 <elliott> no i'm serious about this peek thing
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07:03:36 <elliott> shachaf: are you really improving this awful thing
07:04:03 <elliott> it'll go on your tombstone
07:06:59 <elliott> shachaf: wow, I had no idea it was this bad
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07:08:36 <shachaf> "covariant" is just a scary word. :-(
07:08:53 <shachaf> Maybe I should say a functor "produces" a value in some sense.
07:09:01 <elliott> shachaf: congrats on introducing a new use of unsafeCoerce
07:09:18 <shachaf> elliott: Yes, how else would it work?
07:09:21 <monqy> elliott: remember that time you used unsafeCoerce
07:09:30 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe if it kept the TypeRep around?
07:09:31 <monqy> I dont think I've ever used unsafeCoerce!!
07:09:41 <shachaf> Well, that wouldn't really help, would it?
07:09:42 <elliott> monqy: i use unsafeCoerce a lot, i like it
07:09:59 <monqy> > unsafeCoerce 5 :: IO Int
07:10:03 <monqy> theres a first time for everything
07:10:33 <shachaf> λ> unsafeCoerce 5 :: IO Int
07:10:39 <monqy> > unsafeCoerce "hello" :: IO String
07:10:39 <monqy> <interactive>: internal error: stg_ap_v_ret (GHC version 7.6.1 for i386_unknown_linux) Please report this as a GHC bug: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/reportabug
07:10:40 <shachaf> when will you learn to haskell :'(
07:10:42 <monqy> [1] 10014 abort (core dumped) ghci
07:10:57 <monqy> i'm liking this function
07:12:23 <monqy> Prelude Unsafe.Coerce System.IO.Unsafe> unsafeCoerce (unsafePerformIO $ putStr "safe") :: String
07:12:28 <monqy> this is the best function ever
07:12:41 <elliott> monqy.... you just coerced a to a
07:29:32 <Sgeo_> o.O at that working
07:30:23 <Sgeo_> Getting "safe" back from putStr "safe"
07:30:47 <monqy> are you sure you understand what's going on
07:32:13 <Sgeo_> My understanding says it's surprising that that happens, so possibly not.
07:36:16 <shachaf> elliott: "fighting the good fight"
07:37:25 <ion> I like how our IRC is spread pretty arbitrarily over, like, four active channels.
07:38:32 <shachaf> It's mostly a "making fun of elliott" channel.
07:38:48 <ion> mun of elliott
07:40:06 <monqy> #making-fun-of-elliott-lens
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11:37:34 <ion> WYRMWOOD - An Australian Zombie Film (Out 2013) http://youtu.be/yFrGrH5zfbg
11:40:35 <fizzie> I think it's some sort of a bot.
11:40:47 <ion> Is that a problem? I can cease if they’re not wanted. (That trailer was promising, though.)
11:41:44 <Phantom_Hoover> well it's mainly that you just post them without comment or anything
11:41:44 <fizzie> It seems to have an impressive capability of providing superficially relevant-looking responses.
11:42:00 <fizzie> fungot: Listen and learn something, would you?
11:42:01 <fungot> fizzie: alternate universe, that's " law and order". and it doesn't have to be shakespeare. i'll do better next time, ok? let me know, right?
11:42:31 <fizzie> No, no, I was just monkeying around.
11:45:13 <ion> I know. That trailer was still promising.
11:45:35 <ion> *Everything* has been done to death by now. :-P
11:45:54 <Phantom_Hoover> It just looked like a lot of shaky camera work and washed-out filters to me
11:46:52 <ion> Ignoring the visual style, i found what they were doing with the zombies (not spoiling) interesting.
11:46:58 <ion> Hadn’t seen that before.
11:48:26 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm not sure adding a new infection vector makes zombies interesting again
11:48:40 <ion> No, not that.
11:49:11 <ion> Gurl jrer hfvat mbzovrf sbe shry.
11:50:43 <ion> Feel free to dislike it, but i’m going to watch that movie. :-P
11:51:56 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5971
11:52:22 <ion> It’s not as if the concept of zombies isn’t silly in the first place, it can still be entertaining.
11:53:14 <ion> I like the links to graphs.
11:54:36 <Phantom_Hoover> df's temperature system is probably the most awful piece of coding in it
11:54:51 <fizzie> I like the bit that says "When the unit's fat amount crosses a 2500 boundary, its clothing insulation is recomputed."
11:55:09 <Phantom_Hoover> it has very little effect on gameplay outside of a couple of situations, yet having it on at all cuts your fps in half
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13:36:45 <atriq> Monads are pronounced "mon-adds"?
13:36:57 <atriq> I've always pronounced them "moan-adds"
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14:05:39 <fizzie> I've always pronounced them "gonads".
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14:33:33 <atriq> Oh, that's a relief
14:33:42 <atriq> "mon-add" sounds really weird to me
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15:10:23 <boily> the ad in gonad is not pronounced the same way as the add in add?
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16:54:16 <coppro> my music prof was going to give us a dictation test
16:54:33 <coppro> and managed to pull off a rare and highly irritating psyche out 3x combo
16:55:33 <atriq> Did you enjoy the ballet, then?
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17:52:44 <atriq> I have no idea what I'm doing
17:52:56 <atriq> I'm stumbling around in the darkness of my own mind
17:52:59 <coppro> atriq: neither does elliott
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19:12:11 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, should I continue with PalaceCrushed?
19:12:45 <Phantom_Hoover> well... i don't think a succession game with 2 people really /works/
19:13:10 <Phantom_Hoover> for one thing, there's no succession like with 3 people, you're just swapping
19:13:45 <atriq> It's a pretty nice fort, though, so I'll continue it on my own
19:14:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: oh i didn't start it
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19:36:41 <coppro> i walked into class to hear elevatorstuck
19:36:57 <coppro> i think the world is trying to tell me something
19:37:01 <coppro> its probably to get more sleep
19:37:33 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> ion, also zombies have been done to death by now <-- they were dead from the start hth
19:38:38 <oerjan> i guess i did help, then
19:42:32 <oerjan> 17:52:44: <atriq> I have no idea what I'm doing
19:42:32 <oerjan> 17:52:56: <atriq> I'm stumbling around in the darkness of my own mind
19:45:00 <oerjan> that's a lambdabot race condition, i think.
19:45:06 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (GHC.Types.IO ()))
19:45:29 <oerjan> that's the usual response. or wait it didn't use to that for IO types...
19:45:54 <oerjan> the number of stupid conflicting instances in lambdabot is growing.
19:47:28 <oerjan> in any case under none of the instances would lambdabot actually print "test"
19:48:14 <elliott> <oerjan> the number of stupid conflicting instances in lambdabot is growing.
19:48:49 -!- carado has joined.
19:50:16 <oerjan> oh there are _none_ now?
19:51:01 <elliott> well I wouldn't go that far.
19:52:24 <elliott> shachaf: i see edwardk renamed field
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19:54:58 <zzo38> This week I thought of using RGB<->HSV for audio as well not only for pictures
19:57:23 <pikhq_> What would that even mean for audio?
19:58:42 <Fiora> the closest I can think of for audio would be like an FFT...? but it's really not the same thing
19:58:49 <olsner> extract the red, green and blue sounds, put back hued, saturated and valuable sounds
19:59:32 <Bike> something with the colors of noise?
19:59:42 <zzo38> What I thought was something like using R,G,B as the left, front, back channels and then convert to HSV to do modification on that and then back to RGB
20:01:02 <pikhq_> There's something *analogous* done in a lot of audio formats, actually.
20:01:50 <pikhq_> Backwards-compatible analog stereo is generally done via L+R and L-R signals, and audio compression prefers doing that too.
20:02:00 <zzo38> Yes I know about that.
20:02:12 <zzo38> Is it something like YUV?
20:03:22 <Fiora> L+R is literally L added to R (and similarly for L-R)
20:03:58 <zzo38> Yes, and I think Ambisonic-B is similar but with more directions than just left and right
20:04:01 <Fiora> I... think YUV has more complex coefficients
20:04:20 <Fiora> Y ~= 0.7G + 0.2R + 0.1B?
20:04:23 <pikhq_> zzo38: Yeah, Ambisonic-B is more similar.
20:04:46 -!- Vorpal has joined.
20:07:55 <zzo38> I have won all 23 games of basketball this season. But I still try to improve, just in case.
20:08:31 <zzo38> Fiora: Once I have made something like YUV for pictures, but treating all channels as equal instead of using coefficients like that
20:08:51 <Fiora> I think you need the coefficients to match human perception...
20:11:06 <Phantom_Hoover> my mayor has sentenced a random bone doctor to 40 days in jail because i forgot to make him some damn shields
20:11:32 <Phantom_Hoover> little does he realise that i have a cold case for murder that i can pin on anyone i want
20:11:32 <pikhq_> Fiora: Strictly speaking it's not *necessary*.
20:11:51 <pikhq_> The advantage of the coefficients is that it lets you transmit U and V with less resolution and still look acceptable.
20:11:53 <Fiora> for the best results I mean, but yeah
20:12:00 <Fiora> isn't there also the thing with grayscale?
20:12:10 <Fiora> i.e. "the Y channel looks like a grayscale version of the video"
20:12:15 <Fiora> like if it was shot with black and white film
20:12:36 <Fiora> I remember YUV was originally created as a backwards-compatibility thing to black and white television if I'm remembering my wikipedia right
20:12:45 <pikhq_> Yes, you wouldn't be able to use the Y signal as greyscale.
20:12:49 <pikhq_> And, yes, that's what it's for.
20:12:54 <zzo38> You can also use that with component video input/output in TV sets and other devices which have that.
20:13:01 <pikhq_> It just so happens it's *also* good as an easy compression format.
20:13:01 <zzo38> I have tried that and it works.
20:13:08 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:13:36 <pikhq_> The other compression scheme used on analog video, interlacing, sucks ass though.
20:24:14 <kmc> does that even qualify as a compression scheme?
20:24:33 <kmc> it's more of a hack to increase the perceived framerate without affecting the bandwidth at all
20:27:52 <Vorpal> I just noticed an interesting behaviour of flash videos on Windows, if the browser window is not focused the video stutters badly (< 1 FPS). How strange.
20:32:43 <kmc> it makes a certain amount of sense that programs that aren't focused should get fewer resources
20:32:54 <kmc> it's not necessarily a good idea but i could see why someone would think it is
20:40:34 <Vorpal> kmc, it is not like the computer is heavily loaded either though
20:40:51 <Fiora> could flash itself choose to do that? maybe to avoid loading the CPU when the tab isn't active
20:41:01 <Vorpal> well, that is of course possible
20:41:04 <Fiora> like, to not render images when it's not displayed
20:41:26 <Vorpal> possibly since it doesn't happen on youtube in fact
20:43:34 <olsner> flash would never avoid loading the CPU
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20:52:04 <shachaf> elliott: Renamed field *and* pushed it into Data.Data.Lens!
20:56:48 <Vorpal> is it just me is the IO scheduler of windows terrible when under heavy load?
20:57:38 <Vorpal> as soon as you start an installer for something huge, anything else trying to use the disk become very unresponsive. Linux on the same computer doesn't do that.
21:00:30 -!- atriq has joined.
21:04:02 <atriq> The thing you're searching for is always the hardest to find...
21:09:48 <atriq> Nevermind, I found it
21:09:56 <oerjan> i hear it's always in the last place you look
21:12:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
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21:24:31 <Sgeo__> oerjan, that's totally not true.
21:25:09 <Sgeo__> ...I don't see a way to elaborate without killing the joke
21:25:36 <Bike> don't fret, you already have
21:25:52 <Sgeo__> If you never find it, it was not in the last place you looked.
21:29:15 <atriq> Bike, how's the Eodermdrone interpreter going?
21:29:57 <oerjan> he's probably stuck on the edge cases
21:30:07 <Bike> got as far as subgraph isomorphism, got bored with the replacement bit
21:30:11 <Bike> guess I should figure that out
21:32:37 <kmc> oerjan: c.c
21:33:09 * oerjan hasn't seen that smiley before
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21:40:36 <lambdabot> Setting s t a b -> (a -> b) -> s -> t
21:41:02 <lambdabot> Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> (a, a) -> f (b, b)
21:43:04 <atriq> > both %~ 4 $ ("hello","oerjan"
21:43:06 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:30: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
21:43:06 <atriq> > both %~ 4 $ ("hello","oerjan")
21:43:19 <shachaf> atriq: I can't tell if that's meant as a joke or not.
21:43:42 <shachaf> You're applying the function 4 to two strings.
21:44:06 <atriq> 4 is the best function, which means I should get some sleep soon
21:44:25 <atriq> Because I haven't had sugary food in... 30 hours
21:45:06 <atriq> :t 4 `asAppliedTo` ""
21:45:21 <atriq> Of course, I should have written
21:45:24 <Bike> just what i've always wanted
21:45:33 <atriq> > both .~ 4 ("hello", "oerjan")
21:45:36 <lambdabot> *Exception: show: No overloading for function
21:45:42 <atriq> > both .~ 4 $ ("hello", "oerjan")
21:45:54 <shachaf> > set both 4 ("hello","Bike")
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21:47:03 <lambdabot> Getting (Product a) s t a b -> s -> a
21:47:39 <oerjan> s t a b seems like the right sequence of characters, there
21:47:50 <atriq> > productOf folded [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10]
21:47:58 <shachaf> oerjan: I advocated for it and went through th entire package renaming to it.
21:48:03 <lambdabot> (Applicative f1, Foldable f, Gettable f1) => (a -> f1 a) -> f a -> f1 (f a)
21:48:14 <atriq> Folded turns a Foldable into a Fold
21:48:27 <shachaf> folded :: Foldable f => Fold (f a) a
21:48:55 <shachaf> @ty id :: Getting a a a a a
21:50:01 <atriq> Apparently, Cale doesn't upgrade his libraries every half an hour like the rest of us
21:50:21 <atriq> That's a type error anyway
21:50:46 <atriq> "huh" ^?! id, however
21:51:21 <shachaf> But why use ^?! when you can use ^. ?
21:51:29 <oerjan> i think haskell has officially gone off the deep end.
21:51:43 <atriq> Haskell started off the deep end
21:51:49 <atriq> It's doing laps of the pool
21:51:58 <shachaf> oerjan: Want a quick explanation of lens?
21:52:43 <oerjan> no, i don't think my brain can absorb one.
21:52:53 <shachaf> It's not that complicated!
21:53:02 <oerjan> i was just reading the first post in a slow one.
21:53:14 <atriq> Lenses are like Monads: they look complicated because they are complicated
21:53:20 <atriq> However you get them with practise
21:54:36 <atriq> oerjan, basically, edwardk went insane and kidnapped then brainwashed and enslaved shachaf
21:54:37 <oerjan> my problem right now is that :t gives types that don't fit together without memorizing type synonyms...
21:55:02 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, eh, the problem with monads is that they're actually infuratingly simple
21:55:03 <shachaf> The synonyms are actually simple if you know the pattern.
21:55:12 <Phantom_Hoover> there's just no obvious motivation for them to exist at all
21:55:23 <atriq> They're like lenses but backwards then
21:56:04 <shachaf> fresnel lens = almost a palindrome
21:56:24 <atriq> Ee, fresnel lens, er... free!
21:56:30 <shachaf> kmc: "this fact requires immediate attention"
21:57:40 <shachaf> where would we be without you
21:57:53 <oerjan> monqy: don't ever start smoking, ok?
21:58:38 <oerjan> hi is the gateway drug to irc
21:58:54 <atriq> I went cold turkey on "Hello"
21:59:04 <atriq> You can give up hi, monqy!
21:59:05 <shachaf> oerjan: I thought they made computers?
21:59:36 <shachaf> On October 16, 2007, Acer Inc. completed its acquisition of Gateway for approximately US$710 million.[3]
22:01:32 <shachaf> > set (partsOf (traverse.both.traverse)) "OERJAN JOHANSEN" [("hi","there"),("to","you"),("san","francisco")]
22:01:34 <lambdabot> [("OE","RJAN "),("JO","HAN"),("SEN","francisco")]
22:03:34 <pikhq_> Oe rjan jo han Sen Francisco.
22:04:37 <shachaf> "wait, was the answer know?"
22:04:38 <Bike> why would you ever want to do that, I wonder
22:04:41 <Lumpio-> ...well to be honest I see what it did but I have no idea why
22:04:45 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, Traversable t) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
22:05:12 <lambdabot> Functor f => LensLike (Control.Lens.Internal.Bazaar a a) s t a a -> ([a] -> f [a]) -> s -> f t
22:05:35 <monqy> im glad everything in lens has a dumb type signature
22:05:47 <Bike> everything is so clear now
22:05:50 <shachaf> partsOf :: Functor f => LensLike (BazaarT a a f) s t a a -> LensLike f s t [a] [a]
22:06:51 <monqy> "if only i knew lens"
22:07:00 <monqy> maybe i should learn it!!!!!!!
22:07:14 <shachaf> monqy: "tbh idk if you can handle it"
22:07:38 <atriq> Okay, partsOf takes a Traversal and returns a Lens
22:07:57 <atriq> A Traversal is basically a traditional Haskell Traversable
22:08:02 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, Traversable t) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
22:08:05 <shachaf> partsOf' :: LensLike (Bazaar a a) s t a a -> Lens s t [a] [a]
22:08:34 <shachaf> monqy: lens 3.6 is getting a new function called "upon"
22:08:38 <atriq> traverse is in base, AND in lens! And it's exactly the same thing!
22:08:57 <monqy> I heard there's a function called "field" and it's evil
22:08:59 <shachaf> The deeply-nested version will be called uponTheDeep
22:09:06 <oerjan> shachaf: then it's only a matter of time before it gets "smite"
22:09:10 * oerjan sidles away carefully ->
22:09:10 <shachaf> monqy: "field" is now called "upon" :'(
22:09:23 <atriq> Anyway, a Traversal s t a b is Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t
22:14:46 <atriq> You can read a Traversal s t a b as something where if you can change an a into a b, you can change an s into a t, and also if you can turn a into a monoid, you can turn s into THE SAME MONOID!
22:15:25 <Vorpal> why does everything have to be single letters
22:15:41 <atriq> Because single letters make words
22:15:54 <Vorpal> I guess that is a good answer
22:16:17 <atriq> And also I can't think of long names
22:16:36 <atriq> "Traversal collectionType1 collectionType2 elementType1 elementType2"?
22:16:49 <shachaf> Traversal source target alpha beta
22:18:14 <atriq> > partsOf both %~ reverse $ ('a','b')
22:18:47 <atriq> partsOf lets you use list functions on Traversals with a consistent element type
22:18:59 <atriq> It's very good for overkilling like that
22:18:59 <Bike> > reverse $ ('a','b')
22:19:01 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a0]' with actual type `(t0, t1)'
22:22:42 <shachaf> atriq: ghc doesn't inline reverse :-(
22:22:50 <shachaf> I mean that it doesn't turn reverse [a,b] into [b,a]
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22:23:15 <shachaf> Which is to say, if you write unsafePartsOf both %~ (\[x,y] -> [y,x]), the code gets nicely optimized.
22:23:38 <shachaf> monqy: can you fix ghc's optimizer
22:23:56 <atriq> That assumes you know that it's being given a traversal with only two elements
22:24:34 <shachaf> (case w_s1mf of _ { (a4_a1e3, a'_a1e4) -> a4_a1e3 })
22:24:42 <shachaf> (case w_s1mf of _ { (a4_a1e8, a'_a1e9) -> a'_a1e9 })
22:24:43 <atriq> Bit if I said "partsOf traverse %~ reverse"
22:25:12 <atriq> > partsOf traverse %~ reverse $ Seq.fromList [1,2,3]
22:25:37 -!- impomatic has joined.
22:26:29 <atriq> I need to learn to read GHC Core
22:27:10 <shachaf> ghc-core --no-cast file.hs
22:27:14 <shachaf> Just learn to ignore everything
22:27:23 <shachaf> Ignore all the parts that have @s
22:28:36 <shachaf> The trick to reading generated code is knowing what *not* to read.
22:29:21 -!- boily has quit (Quit: POULEEEEEEEEEEEET!).
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22:32:40 <kmc> you should just compile -fvia-C and read the C code instead
22:33:54 <atriq> I was going to write a Haskell interpreter at one point
22:35:37 -!- jix has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:35:47 -!- jix has joined.
22:35:50 <atriq> It was going to be called "PHI"
22:37:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
22:40:44 <atriq> Portinatx Haskell Interpreter
22:42:01 -!- atriq has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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22:55:54 <Sgeo__> I think that we should airlift nomic players to any nation that has just been through revolution, so maybe they can check for loopholes that allow power grabs.
22:56:37 <oerjan> i sense a sudden decrease in nomic player life expectancy
23:04:59 <Phantom_Hoover> also i just know you're going to do something dumb like embark on a terrifying glacier, don't do that
23:05:22 <elliott> well i am busy playing crawl to an audience of 76 people right now
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23:27:39 <shachaf> elliott: "you're missing all the lens discussions"
23:27:45 <shachaf> "your chance to make history"
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23:31:32 <oerjan> they seem to have lost focus.
23:32:01 <shachaf> Do you have a spy in our midst?
23:32:57 <shachaf> oerjan: We're talking about renaming operations in .Zipper now
23:33:08 <shachaf> "focus" is one of the operations in .Zipper
23:33:13 <shachaf> This can't be a coïncidence.
23:33:14 <elliott> is the joke that it's in the secret lens channel
23:33:19 <elliott> that you won't tell me the name of if i ask
23:34:42 <elliott> i did already ask yesterday iirc anyway
23:36:22 <elliott> shachaf: this channel doesn't make any sense
23:36:42 <shachaf> elliott: It doesn't even have a topic!
23:47:12 <kmc> in Nagios, "output" means "first line of output", and "long output" means "other lines of output"
23:47:36 <shachaf> > let output = take 1 output in output
23:50:23 <Sgeo__> Fiora, elliott and monqy and Phantom_Hoover have been updated.
00:27:09 <olsner> it would be somehow amazing if elliott, monqy and Phantom_Hoover were all bots run by Sgeo__
00:27:12 <ais523> oh, was that line /meant/ to not make sense?
00:27:26 <shachaf> ais523: There's a "Homestuck" update.
00:27:53 <olsner> oh, and I see the channel has become #haskell-lens for the past few hours ... thanks shachaf
00:28:30 <monqy> #haskell-lens, presumably
00:28:37 <monqy> what other channel could be #haskell-lens
00:29:47 <olsner> relatedly, I got three packets of ketchup for free when I paid for my food
00:29:53 <kmc> LIKE A BOSS
00:30:01 <ais523> what is #haskell-lens about?
00:30:11 <ais523> also I like your use of the word "relatedly"
00:30:39 <olsner> hopedly, it is indeed a word
00:31:31 <shachaf> olsner: "hi olsner i know you like pretending to be oerjan but its not wokring"
00:32:14 <olsner> ehm, I'm not pretending
00:32:20 <elliott> hi shachaf i know you like pretending to ...
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00:33:22 <olsner> though it would've been a bit better if I could have said that as "<oerjan> ehm, I'm not pretending"
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00:38:13 <Jafet> This jøke is getting øld.
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00:43:25 <olsner> shachaf: is ##crawl where you usually discuss haskell lens libraries?
00:43:51 <shachaf> olsner: Sometimes I discuss them in #lesswrong
00:43:56 <shachaf> I have no idea what I'm doing in that channel.
00:47:31 <olsner> if you don't know why you're there, maybe you should leave
00:47:32 <kmc> how is it terrible
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01:19:07 <kmc> shachaf: elliott: apparently Simon Marlow is leaving MSR to work at Facebook
01:19:15 <kmc> and is going to stop working on GHC full time
01:19:25 <kmc> and basically it is the end times
01:19:26 <kmc> http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell/2012-November/023566.html
01:21:06 <shachaf> kmc: Now's your chance to rise up and take over the Haskell compiler world with THC.
01:22:05 <zzo38> I managed to make a Csound plugin, currently I made and tested the "avecrev" command which reverses a a-rate vector.
01:26:06 <Gregor> Comin' up on my one year anniversary of tongue-face-smiley-freedom.
01:38:12 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: On December 17th, 2011, I swore off the tongue-face smiley forever.
01:40:32 <oerjan> Gregor proved the power of machine over man
01:40:43 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Mmmhmm.
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02:33:49 <ais523> so, is BSD the fourth most popular operating system family?
02:34:04 <ais523> (after the Windowses and the Linuxes and the OS X/iOSes?)
02:34:14 <ais523> or do old-fashioned commercial Unices still beat it?
02:35:24 <Fiora> I'm guessing it'd depend how you count popular, like, do OSs running on embedded systems count, or just PCs, or...
02:35:27 <kmc> do you mean "most popular OS to run on traditional PC hardware and macs"
02:36:24 <ais523> I'm thinking about desktop/laptop/tablet systems, I guess
02:36:29 <kmc> seems pretty arbitrary
02:36:31 <ais523> things that are meant to be interacted with by a human
02:36:37 <kmc> many embedded systems are
02:36:45 <ais523> as their primary function
02:36:57 <ais523> so I guess the Rasperry Pi counts, but similar systems used as industrial controllers don't
02:36:57 <kmc> how about the dash computer in your car
02:37:05 <ais523> kmc: I don't own a car
02:37:07 <kmc> what about a thermostat -- its primary purpose is to take instructions from a human and execute them
02:37:17 <ais523> and thermostats are still analog where I live
02:37:26 <Fiora> symbian is a phone OS even though it mostly runs on dumbphones I think
02:37:27 <kmc> how about the 100 or so microcontrollers inside your PC alongside the main CPU
02:37:30 <ais523> but no, a thermostat's primary function is to control the temperature
02:37:37 <ais523> it does its job even when you aren't sitting there configuring it
02:37:42 <kmc> a computer's primary function is to send IP packets
02:37:48 <kmc> it does its job even when you aren't sitting there configuring it
02:37:50 <ais523> kmc: not mine, I use it offline quite a lot
02:37:57 <kmc> ok how about web servers then
02:37:59 <ais523> my /server's/ primary function is to do that
02:38:11 <kmc> do you include those as "meant to be interacted with by a human"
02:38:16 <zzo38> A computer's primary function is not to send IP packets. That is a function of some of the programs.
02:39:03 <kmc> also, does the baseband processor in your phone count, or only the applications processor?
02:39:34 <kmc> typically they are separate and the former runs some proprietary RTOS
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02:39:48 <ais523> I also don't own a digital phone
02:39:55 <kmc> what about the firmware running on your computer's GPU -- surely that is an integral part of "interacting with a human"
02:40:00 <kmc> ais523: i'm using the word "your" rhetorically
02:40:02 <ais523> there's a phone in my office, but it's one of those dumb-terminal-style landlines
02:40:16 <ais523> also GPUs don't normally have much of an operating system
02:40:17 <kmc> oh yeah right what about the ubiquitous Cisco VoIP phones
02:40:21 <kmc> obviously a human interaction device
02:40:23 <kmc> does their OS count?
02:40:24 <ais523> I should know, I taught a class on GPU programming
02:40:35 <kmc> did you teach a class on GPU firmware / driver authoring
02:41:10 <ais523> kmc: nah, it was at the level of authoring software for them (the shaders, etc., that are sent to the GPU)
02:41:23 <ais523> but the GPU doesn't have much of an OS to speak of
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02:41:32 <ais523> if it crashes, the whole system hard crashes, no permissions or anything like that
02:41:47 <ais523> (if you're lucky it'll have a watchdog timer that'll reboot it after it's spent 5 seconds crashed, sometimes it even works)
02:42:14 <ais523> I guess I still don't think of computers as Internet communication devices
02:42:27 <ais523> that's really what tablets are for, people used larger computers for that earlier because tablets hadn't been invented yet
02:43:21 <kmc> i don't have any desire to own a tablet
02:43:30 <ais523> "media consumption devices" is a description I'd seen
02:43:33 <kmc> i find it useful to use the same device for internet communications and other things
02:43:34 <ais523> and I think tablets are terrible too
02:44:12 <kmc> it might be nice if that one device were a tablet with a keyboard dock
02:44:18 <kmc> but i don't think i can get one meeting my needs
02:44:33 <kmc> and so i don't have a desire to own a second device that's only good for a subset of the things the firsst device is good for
02:45:47 <kmc> (it would have to be a nice keyboard, preferably with a pointing stick, and capable of running a real desktop linux distro, and not "capable" in the sense of "some guy on xda forums might have done it", but actually no bullshit)
02:46:53 <kmc> the reason i finally got a smartphone is that i needed a 3G/4G hotspot device, and phone was not much more than a standalone device
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03:28:37 <tswett> "You are now traveling into the future. Please wait..."
03:28:49 <tswett> One way of implementing time travel in an MMOG.
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04:50:04 <shachaf> help did i just write a monad tutorial :'(
04:50:54 <kmc> monad tutorial writers anonymous
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04:51:56 <shachaf> It's actually mostly an "IO tutorial" if anything.
04:53:43 <kmc> is it an Either tutorial?
04:54:50 <shachaf> kmc: I'm cold so I have two ghci windows open with "last [1..]"
04:56:32 <shachaf> Should probably fold proteins instead or something.
05:15:37 <kmc> is there a name for the visual artifact that happens when you render antialiased text on a white background, and then composite it over something else with a transparency channel which is just white = transparent, anything else = fully opaque?
05:15:49 <kmc> a local restaurant has that on their menu and it makes me not want to eat there
05:16:23 <shachaf> If I understand what you mean, I don't like that. :-(
05:16:45 <shachaf> kmc: Do you hate all antialiasing?
05:17:04 <shachaf> You should write a window manager and then angrily stop programming.
05:21:37 <kmc> no i love antialiasing
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05:32:21 <zzo38> I think antialiasing should only sometimes be used.
05:32:48 <elliott> tuomov has some surprisingly interesting opinions underneath the noise
05:38:19 <shachaf> I think kmc might end up like him in bitter old age.
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06:00:40 <elliott> is bitter old kmc supposed to be distinguishable from current kmc
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07:26:45 <Sgeo__> Someone just replied to me saying "Damn you"
07:27:36 <Sgeo__> (Actually, they're not mad at me)
07:27:37 <Sgeo__> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/13ooyr/ten_years_ago_our_family_cat_had_to_have_an/c75xis7?context=3
07:27:51 <Bike> so how is this notable
07:28:18 <pikhq_> Other than that I didn't know Sgeo was autistic, not at all.
07:28:29 <Sgeo__> #esoteric is now Wikipedia.
07:28:54 <pikhq_> Sgeo__: Quite. You don't see me talking about myself, now do you? :P
07:28:58 <Bike> well i mean it's not an uncommon phrase
07:29:09 <Bike> i figured if you were bringing it up there must be something unique about the usage
07:29:13 * pikhq_ inserts life spew here
07:29:17 <Bike> like maybe the person saying it was literally a demon
07:29:26 <shachaf> elliott: what if infinity was, like, a number
07:29:56 <Sgeo__> shachaf, who/what are you mocking today? I assume not my 7th grade self since you haven't met him.
07:30:56 <Sgeo__> I guess my 8th grade self said some mockable math stuff, but not about infinity.
07:31:20 <Sgeo__> I tried to define a number, ati, such that |ati| = -1
07:31:39 <Bike> well you were close
07:31:45 <coppro> is it sad that my first thought is "but that's not a norm!"
07:32:19 <Sgeo__> Bike, coppro: I'm now confused.
07:32:22 <Bike> i think everybody who got into math and stuff later did things like that. or maybe just me and you
07:33:21 <Bike> i was just referring to that being sort of like imaginary numbers. and a norm is a lengthy-y thing denoted with vertical bars.
07:33:47 <Sgeo__> I knew about imaginary numbers back then
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08:24:21 <zzo38> I made a Csound plugin library, not quite completed, some things I am unsure how to program them but some I did put in, I have added these commands so far: avecrev, hsvtorgb, hysteresis, integlim, interleave, rgbtohsv, slowchange, squarewave, trianglewave.
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09:03:17 <shachaf> monqy: did you unsafeCoerce today
09:04:00 <shachaf> > let a = zipper ("helloz","world") % down _1 % fromWithin traverse % rights1 6 in (a % view focus, a % save % flip unsafelyRestore ("another","world") % view focus)
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09:22:36 <monqy> Prelude Unsafe.Coerce> unsafeCoerce id :: IO ()
09:22:36 <monqy> [1] 17766 segmentation fault (core dumped) ghci
09:22:43 <monqy> daily unsafeCoerce
09:23:05 <Sgeo__> Why am I reading this http://www.reddit.com/r/ShittyProgramming
09:24:17 <monqy> why are you reading that
09:29:05 <Sgeo__> http://www.reddit.com/r/shittyaskscience/comments/13o48n/is_it_required_to_shampoo_the_air_before_turning/
09:55:22 <shachaf> ion: Want lens to be faster?
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10:20:44 <ion> shachaf: No, it’s perfect right now.
10:22:01 <ion> Making it any faster might rip a hole in the spacetime.
10:22:33 <shachaf> It's, uh, pretty slow right now.
10:24:14 <shachaf> monqy: Want lens to be faster?
10:24:41 <monqy> shachaf: I don't know.
10:25:01 <shachaf> monqy: when will you learn that knowing is important
10:25:08 <monqy> shachaf: I don't know.
10:25:29 <Sgeo__> Will making it faster require the use of unsafeCoerce/unsafePerformIO or a tradeoff in a different dimension such as space usage?
10:25:47 <shachaf> Well, maybe. I don't know.
10:25:52 <shachaf> It'll require someone to write benchmarks.
10:26:30 <Sgeo__> Is there any significant liklihood thatn making it faster will require architectural considerations that should be taken into account now rather than later?
10:28:02 <Sgeo__> No idea, just saying that it might be a bad idea to solidify the design and base everything around it if it fundamentally does something significantly slow, if speed is a concern.
10:28:38 <Sgeo__> But if it's slow but not due to underlying algorithm (i.e. due to not being microoptimized or something) then I assume that could wait.
10:28:53 * shachaf wonders how many "algorithms" lens has.
10:30:02 <monqy> shachaf seems to need lens advice, and who better to give it than sgeo
10:30:30 <Sgeo__> As far as I can tell I'm channeling Captain Obvious.
10:31:35 <monqy> shachaf: maybe? probably not.
10:32:49 <shachaf> monqy: can i have some life advice????
10:33:20 <monqy> don't ask sgeo for lens advice
10:33:44 <monqy> is that life enough for you
10:33:48 <monqy> alt. advice enough for you
10:33:57 <shachaf> life isn't all about lenses
10:34:23 <monqy> I've been decieved
10:34:33 <monqy> i'll try another life advice
10:34:33 <Sgeo__> shachaf, what did you do with the real shachaf?
10:34:49 <shachaf> elliott: Have you seen Control.Lens.Zipper?
10:35:05 <monqy> i have a site for you
10:35:06 <monqy> http://www.lifeadvicefromoldpeople.com/
10:35:14 <monqy> maybe it will help you
10:35:22 <elliott> control.lens.zipper isn't lens...
10:35:46 <monqy> I'm like a granny or something
10:36:01 <shachaf> monqy: are you granny smith
10:36:24 <monqy> is a granny smith old
10:37:33 <shachaf> is monqy a old granny smith
10:38:05 <monqy> i don't see why not
10:45:11 <elliott> well it doesn't make lens slow
10:45:14 <elliott> just because one extra par tof itis slow
10:54:05 <Sgeo__> If IRC servers never sent PINGs, would some clients get disconnected because of lack of activity on the socket?
11:00:34 <fizzie> It sounds not impossible, though the client could very easily e.g. do TCP keepalive to mitigate that.
11:05:07 <elliott> > Just ["a","b","c"] & partsOf template %~ reverse
11:05:09 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a0' in the constraint:
11:05:15 <elliott> > Just ["a","b","c"] & partsOf template %~ (reverse :: [String] -> [String])
11:05:26 <elliott> > (Just ["a","b","c"], "e") & partsOf template %~ (reverse :: [String] -> [String])
11:06:04 <lambdabot> (Data.Data.Data s, Typeable a, Applicative f) => (a -> f a) -> s -> f s
11:07:32 <elliott> > "abcde" & partsOf uniplate %~ reverse
11:08:43 <shachaf> > over uniplate reverse "hello monqy"
11:08:58 <elliott> I don't get it, what does over do there?
11:09:04 <shachaf> elliott: Did you know lastOf (backwards folded) compiles to the same code as listToMaybe?
11:09:30 <elliott> that is pretty cool though
11:09:51 <lambdabot> Setting s t a b -> (a -> b) -> s -> t
11:10:05 <elliott> > "test abc" & uniplate %~ reverse
11:10:37 <elliott> what's the difference between uniplate and partsOf uniplate here?
11:10:40 <elliott> > "test abc" ^. partsOf uniplate
11:10:46 <elliott> > "test abc" ^.. partsOf uniplate
11:11:05 <shachaf> Which part is the confusion?
11:11:32 <elliott> I don't quite understand why partsOf uniplate %~ reverse doesn't do the shuffly thing
11:11:47 <elliott> or how uniplate %~ reverse works, given that it seems to only give one result ("est abc")
11:11:54 <elliott> yet it shuffles "recursively" inside those results when you actually do it
11:12:32 <elliott> so the reason partsOf uniplate doesn't do it is because you just reverse a one-element list and put it back; right
11:12:46 <elliott> is there a recursive version of uniplate?
11:13:36 <shachaf> btw did you know template = uniplate
11:13:48 <elliott> but is there a recursive version of uniplate?
11:14:27 <elliott> I'd expect ["est abc", "st abc", "t abc", ..., ""]
11:14:38 <lambdabot> ["test abc","est abc","st abc","t abc"," abc","abc","bc","c",""]
11:14:46 <elliott> I guess it can't be a Lens
11:14:54 <shachaf> > universeOf uniplate "test abc"
11:14:57 <lambdabot> ["test abc","est abc","st abc","t abc"," abc","abc","bc","c",""]
11:15:26 <shachaf> When Cale upgrades lambdabot, we'll get upon.
11:15:32 <shachaf> Oh, and edwardk implemented uponTheDeep
11:17:45 <elliott> shachaf: is Control.Lens.WithIndex.itoList's documentation supposed to link to Data.IntMap
11:20:57 <elliott> shachaf: the "map" in its code example links to Data.IntMap too
11:21:04 <elliott> haven't noticed any other issues
11:21:05 <elliott> > Node 123 [Node 12 [Node 4 []], Node 3 []] & uniplate %~ reverse
11:21:07 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Data.Tree.Tree a0'
11:21:24 <elliott> > Node 123 [Node 12 [Node 4 []], Node 3 []]
11:21:25 <lambdabot> Node {rootLabel = 123, subForest = [Node {rootLabel = 12, subForest = [Node...
11:21:35 <elliott> > Node 123 [Node 12 [Node 4 []], Node 3 []] ^.. uniplate
11:21:37 <lambdabot> [Node {rootLabel = 12, subForest = [Node {rootLabel = 4, subForest = []}]},...
11:21:40 <elliott> :t Node 123 [Node 12 [Node 4 []], Node 3 []] ^.. uniplate
11:21:42 <lambdabot> (Data.Data.Data a, Num a) => [Tree a]
11:21:57 <elliott> > Node 123 [Node 12 [Node 4 []], Node 3 []] & partsOf plate %~ reverse
11:21:59 <lambdabot> Node {rootLabel = 123, subForest = [Node {rootLabel = 3, subForest = []},No...
11:22:04 <elliott> > Node 123 [Node 12 [Node 4 []], Node 3 []] & partsOf plate %~ reverse & drawTree
11:22:06 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Base.String)
11:22:22 <elliott> > Node 123 [Node 12 [Node 4 []], Node 3 []] & partsOf plate %~ reverse & fmap show & drawTree & text
11:24:34 <shachaf> Data.Tree is a very smart computer
11:25:23 <elliott> > Node 123 [Node 12 [Node 4 []], Node 3 []] & template *~ 2 & fmap show & drawTree & text
11:30:11 <elliott> shachaf: would it make sense to generalise Plated to "class Plate a b where plate :: Simple Traversal a b"? so you can do what "template" does
11:30:15 <elliott> I guess it'd be redundant with Data
11:30:26 <elliott> and also mess up inference
11:31:36 <shachaf> elliott: your lens talk is offtopic in here
11:40:09 <lambdabot> Setting s t a (Maybe b) -> b -> s -> t
11:40:56 <shachaf> > M.empty & at "monqy" ?~ "hi"
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11:45:28 <elliott> apparently my lens is 6 major versions behind
11:45:33 <elliott> because I installed it a few days ago
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12:15:56 <Arc_Koen> @tell oerjan my Minks implementation is based on what was written in the minks page + what was said on the talk page; also I did not put any comments in it and the parser is incredibly badly written; I'm not sure considering that implementation as some sort of "reference implementation" is such a good idea ;)
12:16:19 <Arc_Koen> @tell oerjan also I'll try to remember why I put it on the talk page in the first place and not in a wiki page of its own
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12:27:42 <elliott> shachaf: what if you did the same trick that isomorphisms use for all lenses
12:28:32 <elliott> type Getter s a = forall f. (Gettable f, Gettery k) => k s a
12:28:45 <elliott> instance Gettery (\s a -> (a -> f a) -> s -> f s)
12:32:30 <elliott> type Lens s t a b = forall f. (Lensy k) => k s t a b
12:32:41 <elliott> instance Lensy (\s _ a _ -> (s -> a))
12:32:51 <elliott> instance Lensy (\s t a b -> forall f. (Functor f) => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t)
12:32:58 <monqy> Q: if i know lens will all their type signatures stop looking really stupid
12:32:58 <elliott> what could go wrong, right
12:33:37 <shachaf> monqy: no but! your eyes just sort of glaze over and you don't actually read the signatures after a while
12:33:44 <shachaf> which is basically the same as before you know lens
12:34:21 <lambdabot> Setting s t a b -> (a -> b) -> s -> t
12:34:29 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, TraversableWithIndex i t) => (i -> a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
12:34:39 <elliott> monqy: it has some cool signatures!
12:35:09 <lambdabot> LensLike f s t a b -> (a -> f b) -> s -> f t
12:35:12 <shachaf> "pretty cool signature right"
12:35:44 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Field1 s t a b) => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t
12:35:54 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `Data.Ix.index',
12:35:54 <lambdabot> imported from `Data.Ix' at State/L.hs:32:1-14
12:36:04 <elliott> :t Control.Lens.Indexed.index
12:36:06 <lambdabot> Indexed i k => ((i -> a) -> b) -> k a b
12:36:08 <elliott> monqy: that's a pretty nice signature!
12:36:31 <lambdabot> Control.Lens.Internal.Effective m r f => (s -> m a) -> (a -> f a) -> s -> f s
12:36:53 <elliott> :t Control.Lens.Action.act
12:36:55 <lambdabot> Control.Lens.Internal.Effective m r f => (s -> m a) -> (a -> f a) -> s -> f s
12:36:59 <elliott> weird it shows differently
12:37:49 <shachaf> elliott: Really happy with how the Core for getters/folds turns out!
12:38:05 <shachaf> ion is sending patches to lens now.
12:38:09 <shachaf> I'm sure it's just a phase.
12:38:17 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Indexed (Tape (h :> a)) k) => k (a -> f a) ((h :> a) -> f (h :> a))
12:38:21 <elliott> monqy: also a pretty good type
12:38:26 <ion> shachaf: I see what you did there. “phase”
12:38:34 <elliott> focus :: SimpleIndexedLens (Tape (h :> a)) (h :> a) a
12:38:37 <lambdabot> Zipper h a => (h :> a) -> Zipped h a
12:38:50 <monqy> elliott: are these the sorts of types that look cool once i know lens,m because i don't know lense
12:39:09 <elliott> ion: "This isn't /quite/ a legal lens."
12:39:20 <elliott> it' sa cool library i like it
12:39:49 <ion> elliott: edwardk already did that in polarize, so i thought it would be okay.
12:39:51 <shachaf> elliott: Not sure about traversals.
12:39:57 <monqy> im sure id find it cool if i took the time to read what the stuff meant
12:40:10 <elliott> monqy: i figured out lens just by reading the haddocks
12:40:16 <monqy> yeah but i hjavent done that
12:40:24 <monqy> ive been too busy doing other stuff!!!!
12:41:04 <shachaf> monqy: i figured out lens just by going to edwardk's talk about it in san francisco
12:41:08 <shachaf> have you been to san francisco
12:43:08 <ion> shachafs left
12:44:22 <elliott> shachaf: you should fix Data.Vector.Lens
12:44:27 <elliott> it has lots of partial lenses which should be traversals
12:44:37 <shachaf> elliott: No, you should fix it.
12:44:50 <shachaf> And while you're at it, write some benchmarks for me.
12:45:34 <shachaf> Hey, it's pretty nifty that GHC infers t for over and s for view.
12:46:24 <elliott> monqy: another cool lens thing
12:46:25 <elliott> > ala _sum foldMap [1,2,3,4]
12:46:40 <ion> s̈ḧäc̈ḧäf̈:̈¨n̈öẗḧïn̈g̈
12:46:47 <elliott> > ala _endo foldMap [("a"++),reverse,(++"b")] "hello"
12:46:50 <monqy> lens has ala? yeah i remember ala from before
12:46:59 <elliott> it's like Control.Newtype but better since it's not tied to the notions of newtypes
12:47:01 <lambdabot> Simple Iso s a -> ((s -> a) -> e -> a) -> e -> s
12:47:06 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Isomorphic k) => k (Sum a -> f (Sum b)) (a -> f b)
12:47:08 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Isomorphic k) => k (Endo a -> f (Endo b)) ((a -> a) -> f (b -> b))
12:47:11 <shachaf> monqy: lens has first clarinet ala
12:47:30 <elliott> _endo :: Iso (a -> a) (b -> b) (Endo a) (Endo b)
12:47:39 <elliott> _sum :: Iso (Sum a) (Sum b) a b
12:47:40 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `view' (imported from Control.Lens)
12:47:44 <elliott> lambdabot just displays them badly :(
12:47:55 <ion> Yes, lens has first clarinet ala.
12:48:25 <shachaf> > from (isomorphic Sum getSum) 1
12:48:27 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (Data.Monoid.Sum a0))
12:48:36 <elliott> monqy: so you can also do things like get an isomorphism for your newtype made
12:48:52 <elliott> monqy: so you can treat it as a lens field to modify it/get at it/etc.
12:49:07 <shachaf> monqy: Did you know GHC doesn't optimize [] to []?
12:49:10 <elliott> > First (Just "abcd") & _first %~ reverse
12:49:12 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Data.Monoid.First [GHC.Types.Char]'
12:49:13 <shachaf> monqy: Did you know GHC doesn't optimize reverse [] to []?
12:49:25 <elliott> > First (Just "abcd") & _first._just %~ reverse
12:49:28 <monqy> shachaf: i hear ghc doesnt inline reverse
12:49:39 <shachaf> > First (Just "abcd") & _first.traverse %~ reverse
12:49:41 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Data.Monoid.First [GHC.Types.Char]'
12:50:15 <shachaf> > First (Just "abcd") & from _first.traverse %~ reverse
12:50:32 <lambdabot> Isomorphic k => Isomorphism a b -> k b a
12:50:34 <shachaf> > First (Just "abcd") & from _first.traverse %~ reverse
12:50:40 <shachaf> > First (Just "abcd") & from _first.traverse %~ reverse
12:50:40 <shachaf> > First (Just "abcd") & from _first.traverse %~ reverse
12:50:40 <shachaf> > First (Just "abcd") & from _first.traverse %~ reverse
12:50:41 <shachaf> > First (Just "abcd") & from _first.traverse %~ reverse
12:50:52 <monqy> > var "hi shachaf"
12:51:01 <monqy> time limit "not exceeded"
12:51:02 <shachaf> > First (Just "abcd") & from _first.traverse %~ reverse
12:51:10 <ion> Lens is too slow.
12:51:14 <shachaf> monqy: do you have magic powers
12:51:17 <shachaf> > First (Just "abcd") & from _first.traverse %~ reverse
12:51:30 <shachaf> do i have magic powers now>?
12:51:58 <elliott> monqy: other cool things: it has a notion of "indexes" so you can do things like
12:52:03 <elliott> > "abcde" & iwhere (\i -> i `mod` 2 == 0) .~ 'q'
12:52:07 <elliott> > "abcde" & iwhere (\i -> i `mod` 2 == 0) %~ toUpper
12:52:22 <elliott> > M.fromList [("a",2),("b",3)] & at "b" +~ 10
12:52:24 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (Data.Maybe.Maybe a0))
12:52:26 <monqy> elliott: o thats cool
12:52:30 <elliott> > M.fromList [("a",2),("b",3)] & at "b" ?~ 10
12:52:41 <elliott> > M.fromList [("a",2),("b",3)] & at "b" ?+~ 10
12:52:46 <elliott> > M.fromList [("a",2),("b",3)] & at "b" +?~ 10
12:52:54 <elliott> is there even an operator for that
12:53:10 <shachaf> elliott: Can you believe how uninlined this is? :-(
12:53:12 <elliott> monqy: anyway you get the idea
12:53:24 <shachaf> > M.fromList [("a",2),("b",3)] & at "b".traverse +~ 10
12:53:38 <elliott> isn't that just traverseAt
12:53:45 <elliott> > M.fromList [("a",2),("b",3)] & traverseAt "b" +~ 10
12:53:45 <shachaf> > M.fromList [("a",2),("b",3)] & _at "b" +~ 10
12:54:05 <lambdabot> (Functor f, At k m, Indexed k k1) => k -> k1 (Maybe v -> f (Maybe v)) (m v -> f (m v))
12:54:07 <lambdabot> `cat' (imported from Text.PrettyPrint.HughesPJ),
12:54:14 <lambdabot> `traverseAt' (imported from Control.Lens),
12:54:16 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, At k m, Indexed k k1) => k -> k1 (v -> f v) (m v -> f (m v))
12:54:27 <elliott> right, so at is just a lens on the Maybe result
12:54:28 <shachaf> k -> SimpleIndexedTraversal k (m v) v
12:54:30 <shachaf> -- Defined in `Control.Lens.IndexedTraversal'
12:54:32 <elliott> whereas traverseAt lifts it to a traversal
12:54:39 <elliott> I wonder if you could unify the notions somehow so they ended up having the same type
12:54:42 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `t0' in the constraint:
12:54:59 <elliott> monqy: have you seen the examples with "both"
12:55:23 <elliott> > (1,2) & partsOf both %~ reverse
12:55:31 <elliott> (that last one is evil don't actually use it please)
12:55:42 <shachaf> > (1,2) & unsafePartsOf both %~ reverse -- less evil??
12:56:15 <elliott> can you do partsOf foo %~ reverse just by using Backwards
12:56:29 <elliott> can you do it in a way that doesn't involve a list at least
12:56:44 <elliott> i mean you must be able to
12:57:05 <shachaf> You can uh, use the traversal twice?
12:57:14 <shachaf> Zip the traversal with its Backwrads?
13:00:30 <lambdabot> `^!' (imported from Control.Lens),
13:00:38 <elliott> how is cale going to keep up
13:00:45 <elliott> also how did cale get convinced to put lens in lambdabot in the first place
13:00:51 <shachaf> @let (^?!) = fromMaybe (error "hi monqy") .: headOf
13:00:55 <monqy> elliott: ive seen "both" in ursala but in haskell it is new to me !
13:01:02 <monqy> except in ursala it is just b
13:01:19 <lambdabot> Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> (a, a) -> f (b, b)
13:01:31 <elliott> monqy: but in ursala can you use it to map over both elements
13:01:43 <shachaf> elliott: Other way around.
13:02:14 <elliott> monqy: the traversal is actually more powerful!
13:02:27 <elliott> monqy: than just (a -> b) -> (a, a) -> (b, b)
13:02:35 <shachaf> can ursala compute the sum of a string
13:02:38 <elliott> you can do the reverse thing
13:02:39 <elliott> > (1,2) & partsOf both %~ reverse
13:02:51 <elliott> (because you get that arbitrary applicative effect)
13:04:07 <ion> > (Sum 3, Sum 4) ^. both
13:04:18 <shachaf> > sumOf both (Sum 3, Sum 4)
13:04:20 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (Data.Monoid.Sum a0))
13:04:25 <ion> > sumOf both (3, 4)
13:04:32 <elliott> > (1,2) & both %~ Sum & get both
13:04:32 <monqy> % fun -c -m="~&brlX ((1,2),(3,4))"
13:04:34 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Control.Monad.State.Class.MonadState
13:04:36 <monqy> "but can haskell do this"
13:04:41 <elliott> > ((1,2) & both %~ Sum) ^. both
13:04:43 <lambdabot> mueval-core: NotAllowed "These modules have not been loaded:\nL\n"
13:04:46 <shachaf> > lastOf (backwards traverse) [1..100000000]
13:04:51 <elliott> > ((1,2) & both %~ Sum) ^. both
13:04:57 <elliott> is there a nicer way of doing this
13:05:01 <shachaf> > lastOf (backwards traverse) [1..100000000000000000000000000000000]
13:05:02 <ion> Wow, i haven’t seen the NotAllowed error before.
13:05:07 <shachaf> > lastOf (backwards traverse) [1..100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000]
13:05:14 <elliott> like is there a way to capture
13:05:29 <shachaf> elliott: sum toListOf both?
13:05:45 <shachaf> > sum (toListOf both (1,2))
13:05:47 <elliott> that's not really what i maen...
13:06:01 <elliott> foo l f x = over l f x ^. l
13:06:08 <elliott> alternatively, how is sumOf defined
13:06:47 <lambdabot> Getting r s t a b -> (a -> r) -> s -> r
13:07:44 <elliott> > sumOf (iwhere even) [1..10]
13:08:03 <ion> Why isn’t getSum unsafeCoerce in the first place?
13:09:19 <elliott> > sumOf (iwhere even) $ M.fromList []
13:09:21 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `k0' in the constraints:
13:09:24 <shachaf> ion: *You* try to get "over mapped" to compile into fmap
13:10:42 <elliott> > M.fromList [(0,"abc"), (1,"def"), (2,"qqq")] ^. traverse
13:10:54 <elliott> > M.fromList [(0,"abc"), (1,"def"), (2,"qqq")] ^. iwhere even . traverse
13:10:56 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Monoid.Monoid GHC.Types.Char)
13:11:04 <elliott> :t M.fromList [(0,"abc"), (1,"def"), (2,"qqq")] ^. iwhere even
13:11:05 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `k0' in the constraints:
13:11:06 <lambdabot> (Integral k0) arising from a use of `even' at <interactive>:1:56-59
13:11:06 <lambdabot> (Num k0) arising from the literal `0' at <interactive>:1:14
13:11:43 <elliott> shachaf: what am I doing wrong
13:12:44 <shachaf> > M.fromList [(0,"abc"), (1,"def"), (2,"qqq")] ^. iwhere (even::Int->Bool)
13:13:21 <ion> Doesn’t work in my ghci. 7.4.2.
13:15:05 <shachaf> elliott: I'm not liking the iwhere Core.
13:15:09 <monqy> shachaf: you should learn ursala!
13:15:21 <elliott> monqy: did you ever finish the manual
13:15:25 <shachaf> didn't she write that book
13:15:27 <monqy> elliott: no i got sidetracked
13:15:58 <monqy> elliott: im struggling with the hell that is figuring out how to get rewriting under binders working in coq
13:16:11 <monqy> while really tired??? i should sleep
13:16:21 <elliott> monqy: sounds less fun than ursala. you should read the manual some more instead
13:16:40 <elliott> shachaf: come on, ghc is smart enough for that
13:17:59 <shachaf> But not for one of the other ones I added.
13:18:39 <shachaf> itoListOf ifolded is working
13:18:45 <shachaf> but itoListOf itraverse is not??????
13:19:35 <ion> monqy: Binders full of women?
13:20:41 <lambdabot> FoldableWithIndex i f => f b -> [(i, b)]
13:20:43 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `IndexedGetting
13:20:44 <lambdabot> with actual type `(i1 -> a1 -> f0 b1) -> t1 a1 -> f0 (t1 b1)'
13:23:09 <monqy> ahh, the hell that is rewriting under binders was working all along but i forgot to declare my stuff as morphisms
13:23:17 <monqy> im too tired for this
13:23:42 <shachaf> i declare monqqys stuff as morphisms
13:24:29 <shachaf> elliott: Should indexed be strict?
13:24:37 <lambdabot> Indexed Int k => ((a -> Control.Lens.Internal.Indexing f b) -> s -> Control.Lens.Internal.Indexing f t) -> k (a -> f b) (s -> f t)
13:24:45 <shachaf> indexed l = index $ \iafb s -> case runIndexing (l (\a -> Indexing (\i -> (iafb i a, i + 1))) s) 0 of
13:24:49 <shachaf> indexed l = index $ \iafb s -> case runIndexing (l (\a -> Indexing (\i -> i `seq` (iafb i a, i + 1))) s) 0 of
13:25:00 <shachaf> elliott: help i dont havae any benchmarks!!
13:25:06 <elliott> i thought you meant strict as in strict
13:25:19 <shachaf> One of them builds a bunch of thunks, though, I assume.
13:25:32 <elliott> what if you have a complex lens type
13:25:50 <elliott> that has a lot of computation
13:25:51 <lambdabot> Indexed Int k => ((a -> Control.Lens.Internal.Indexing f b) -> s -> Control.Lens.Internal.Indexing f t) -> k (a -> f b) (s -> f t)
13:26:20 <lambdabot> Indexed Int k => ((a -> Control.Lens.Internal.Indexing f b) -> s -> Control.Lens.Internal.Indexing f t) -> k (a -> f b) (s -> f t)
13:26:28 <elliott> it seems semantically wrong though
13:26:35 <shachaf> indexed turns an existing traversal into an Int-indexed traversal
13:26:40 <elliott> what if you have a structure where it's easy to access in order
13:26:41 <shachaf> Just by the order it Ints by.
13:26:46 <elliott> but calculating the exact indices is expensive
13:27:01 <elliott> does it even change semantics to make it strict then
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13:27:20 <shachaf> Who cares about semantics?
13:27:25 <shachaf> I asked if it should be strict.
13:27:38 <elliott> i assumed it was a question about the function's denotation
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13:27:46 <elliott> operationally, do whatever you think will be fastest, probably strict
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13:33:13 <shachaf> elliott: Yay, saves us from a stack overflow.
13:34:00 <shachaf> itoListOf l = ifoldMapOf l (\i a -> [(i,a)])
13:34:21 <shachaf> Should it be ifoldrOf l (\i a -> ((i,a):))?
13:45:30 <shachaf> elliott: Isn't it annoying how with rank-2 types, to make a type *more* polymorphic you have to make the signature *more* specific?
14:13:33 <Phantom_Hoover> for some reason every single human in the village i was in, including my 3 companions, turned hostile
14:14:06 <Phantom_Hoover> presently i am retreating from a massive crowd of them, a trail of broken bodies in my wake
14:16:43 <Phantom_Hoover> no, i got sent to kill a spearman by someone in the same village
14:17:11 <Phantom_Hoover> when i found him in one of the huts, there was a flurry of chaos and everyone started attacking me
14:17:32 <Phantom_Hoover> they've gashed my foot and my left arm, but so far i'm holding them off pretty handily
14:22:17 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, has elliott started the fortress yet?
14:24:05 <atriq> I figured asking you would ping both of you
14:24:18 <atriq> elliott, does Phantom_Hoover think you've started the fortress yet?
14:25:30 <lambdabot> Indexed Int k => ((a -> Control.Lens.Internal.Indexing f b) -> s -> Control.Lens.Internal.Indexing f t) -> k (a -> f b) (s -> f t)
14:25:36 <shachaf> "how hard can it be to write this function"
14:25:43 <atriq> elliott, if Phantom_Hoover thought you had started the fortress, would he be correct#?
14:25:57 <atriq> I feel like I'm in a logic puzzle
14:26:51 <elliott> atriq: from a falsehood, all follows
14:27:01 <elliott> the falsehood is Phantom_Hoover thinking
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14:49:25 <Phantom_Hoover> i can't sleep in the town, it's night, and i can't stand before healing
14:49:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which game?
14:50:44 <Vorpal> hm, never played that mode, is it any good?
14:51:56 <Vorpal> is it as fun as the fortress mode though?
14:52:59 <elliott> Vorpal: it's a masterpiece
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15:06:34 <fizzie> A thing that moves air around.
15:06:55 <fizzie> Apparently only if it's done by movement of a surface or surfaces.
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16:02:25 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen said 3h 46m 28s ago: my Minks implementation is based on what was written in the minks page + what was said on the talk page; also I did not put any comments in it and the parser is
16:02:25 <lambdabot> incredibly badly written; I'm not sure considering that implementation as some sort of "reference implementation" is such a good idea ;)
16:02:25 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen said 3h 46m 5s ago: also I'll try to remember why I put it on the talk page in the first place and not in a wiki page of its own
16:04:01 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: well the part about conditions starting True was also in the talk page; the other change was that only conditions before commands count for the loop checking, which your truth machine depends on. feel free to undo it but then you need to change both your implementation and your truth machine.
16:04:25 <oerjan> @tell Arc_Koen well the part about conditions starting True was also in the talk page; the other change was that only conditions before commands count for the loop checking, which your truth machine depends on. feel free to undo it but then you need to change both your implementation and your truth machine.
16:05:52 <oerjan> @tell Arc_Koen that is, the condition x is used as a target in the truth machine, but ignored for the loop check
16:06:24 -!- t1 has left.
16:08:57 <oerjan> @tell Arc_Koen also i certainly don't consider your use of bounded integers to be authoritative >:)
16:16:45 <atriq> Well, that code became neater quickly
16:17:13 <atriq> Rewriting a DCPU interpreter I started and never finished
16:17:25 <oerjan> it's when it starts obfuscating itself you should start worrying
16:18:52 <atriq> From 3 lines with ridiculous lambdas, record syntax, and the "lens" function to 1 line, with pointless fun
16:19:40 <atriq> Basically, I've got two UArrays of Word16s in one datatype, with different address types
16:20:08 <atriq> And I was making a function that took an Either AddressType1 AddressType2 and returned a Simple Lens DCPU Word16
16:20:35 <atriq> dcpuLens = dcpuRegisters .: ix ||| dcpuRam .: ix
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16:45:31 <elliott> i can't become a duck all by myself Phantom_Hoover
16:46:01 <Phantom_Hoover> step 2, anger witch after expressing utmost revulsion for ducks
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16:47:49 <atriq> elliott, you can do step 2 easily by saying "I hate you almost as much as I hate ducks!"
16:48:39 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm handing control of this project over to you, you are more likely to know about witches in the hexham area
16:49:21 <atriq> I can't think of any specific witch off the top of my head, but I'll put out some feelers
16:49:30 <elliott> atriq: that doesn't work if i like ducks though..... i;td be a compliment
16:49:49 <atriq> elliott, the witch doesn't have to know you like ducks!
16:50:33 <atriq> Think of the insinuations of the negative word "hate"
16:50:38 <atriq> As applied to ducks
16:50:47 <atriq> The obvious assumption is that the speaker hates ducks
16:51:15 <elliott> what if that just means i love ducks....... to death
16:51:42 <Phantom_Hoover> say you love her........... to death too, then try and kill her however you killed the duck
16:51:55 <Phantom_Hoover> she will turn you into a duck as an ironic lesson on the consequences of your actions
16:59:42 <Phantom_Hoover> come on surely there are some witches in northumberland who like homestuck!
17:00:48 <atriq> a) Northumberland is pretty big, and Hexham's right in the south of it
17:01:01 <atriq> b) most of the Homestucks I know live in Tyne and Wear
17:05:23 <fizzie> Tyne and Wear sound like made-up names.
17:06:12 <atriq> It's a modern county named after two rivers flowing through it
17:06:21 <atriq> The Tyne also flows through Hexham
17:06:33 <kmc> they have a metro
17:06:43 <fizzie> Do the metro trains run on Tyne?
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17:10:54 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm fairly sure the nick cage appreciation society at this university was made by homestucks, but they seem to be in hiding
17:11:42 <atriq> Acquire a Homestuck shirt, ideally from your wardrobe. Wander about in it constantly, but not just after updates.
17:12:37 <atriq> You can get Homestuck hoodies, which are closer to jumpers than t-shirts
17:14:33 <fizzie> You can just wear your Homestuck underwear on top of your pants.
17:15:33 <fizzie> There's an empty Tumblr with that title.
17:16:02 <atriq> I need to pretend to be Phantom_Hoover
17:16:11 <fizzie> There was also something I didn't understand in the results.
17:16:42 <Phantom_Hoover> i heard someone mentioning something called 'mathfuck' or maybe 'fuckbrath', it sounded awful
17:16:57 <Phantom_Hoover> i couldn't get any more details out of them but that sounds like a good start
17:26:37 <atriq> My query on Facebook for witch recommendations has received three likes. All by Homestucks, as it happens
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17:29:27 <fizzie> What's this witch thing?
17:29:41 <atriq> elliott needs a witch so he can become a duck
17:30:35 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, why is your facebook picture a drawing of a girl :/
17:30:43 <atriq> It's a drawing of me
17:30:54 <atriq> I'm just rather devoid of masculinity
17:30:57 <fizzie> All Hexhamites look like girls, is that it?
17:31:06 <atriq> And in an unusual outfit
17:31:58 <atriq> I'm fairly sure you watch Doctor Who
17:32:07 <atriq> You've complained about my taste in doctors before.
17:33:07 <fizzie> Yeah, it's lowering your compatibility percentage.
17:33:26 <Phantom_Hoover> have to love how my dorfs are happy to have a drink at the edge of a 9-level precipice
17:38:21 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, at least you liked the episode with ben browder in it
17:38:35 <atriq> Which episode was that?
17:39:05 <atriq> That was a good episode
17:40:56 <quintopia> farscape was a good episode. i was younger then, and probably happier.
17:45:15 <Phantom_Hoover> at least she was surrounded by her friends when she died
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17:48:48 <Phantom_Hoover> now they're showing their respects by leaving her corpse lying on one of the central staircases and making no effort at all to bury her
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17:49:41 <zzo38> That is not a very good place to leave the corpse.
17:50:55 <zzo38> Even if you don't have any coffins, the stairs is not a good place to leave it.
17:51:08 <atriq> zzo38, dwarf logic
17:51:27 <atriq> "Hey, there's the old mayor's corpse"
17:51:35 <atriq> "It should be in a coffin"
17:51:39 <atriq> "We don't have any coffins"
17:52:05 <atriq> "Bah, I've got more important things to do, like carry this barrel of mushrooms to the mushroom farm to put a mushroom in it"
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18:09:08 <Phantom_Hoover> no, vampires will prey on domesticated animals if they can't find dorfs
18:13:25 <Phantom_Hoover> both of them have just vanished out of the blue, with no hostiles on the map and no combat logs
18:32:40 <zzo38> What is a amplitude per second units?
18:34:11 <zzo38> It is not measured here in dB though, it is measured using linear
18:34:32 <nooga> I see that DF is trendy again
18:34:44 <zzo38> They are floating point values that would be converted to integer and store in sound files.
18:35:21 <kmc> probably that amplitude is unitless
18:35:28 <kmc> it's a fraction of the maximum cone displacement
18:35:40 <kmc> unless your audio files are normalized to some volume standard
18:36:17 <kmc> in which case they are a maximum of some specified decibel value at some specified measuring condition
18:36:20 <kmc> and so still unitless
18:36:43 <zzo38> They are 0 dB at whatever the user specifies in the Csound orchestra file, in the "0dbfs" parameter.
18:37:09 <zzo38> That becomes the maximum value without clipping
18:39:46 <nooga> what was that command to leave a message for someone using our bot[s]?
18:39:55 <zzo38> It is Csound, and some of the commands I added take the amplitude per second measurements, such as the "slowchange" command.
18:39:58 <kmc> @tell nooga it's @tell
18:40:15 <nooga> and he didn't told me
18:40:16 <lambdabot> nooga: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:40:40 <FreeFull> Waits until the next time you speak in a channel it's in =P
18:41:26 <zzo38> Although you can check messages even without that, too
18:41:36 <nooga> @tell elliott http://cl.ly/image/2R2T1L0G0L2e OH LOOK WHAT I'VE GOT :}
18:44:23 <quintopia> zzo38: ah you mean samples per second. also known as frequency. it is measured in Hz
18:45:10 <zzo38> quintopia: Well, yes, it is Hz, I guess, although in this case the amplitude is important too
18:45:28 <FreeFull> Well, the sampling rate is twice the maximum frequency
18:45:50 <quintopia> but as kmc said, the amplitude is unitless
18:46:08 <FreeFull> Amplitude will depend on bits per sample
18:46:39 <quintopia> or use dB since apparently you specify a 0dB standard
18:47:36 <zzo38> But what I have is more like a slope I think
18:50:33 <Phantom_Hoover> fortunately he's just kind of standing next to a lever doing nothing
18:50:45 <atriq> That's our itidus!
18:51:58 <Phantom_Hoover> "i think the reason i can't get her to do anything is that i just can't wrap my brain around possessing people"
18:52:45 <Phantom_Hoover> "they say possession is nine tenths of the law, but what about the laws of physics?
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19:02:30 <zzo38> Make up the game involving possession nine tenths of the law of physics.
19:13:47 <quintopia> most rts's and social games are like that
19:17:26 <zzo38> Now I programmed the Csound command "aQ, anotQ flipflop aS, aR, aclock, [ithreshold], [klow], [khigh], [init]"
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19:47:45 <zzo38> Csound is a program to make music and sound effect.
19:47:58 <zzo38> You can look it up in Wikipedia for information.
19:48:52 <zzo38> It has its own orchestra prorgamming language, and then there is also a score file which tells it what instruments to play, when, and what parameters.
19:50:39 <zzo38> It is not difficult to add new commands by writing plugins in C. You don't need to do anything other than compile the plugin with the correct options (on my computer: gcc -DUSE_DOUBLE -I "$CSOUNDDIR/include" -shared -o csoundextraopcodes.dll -O2 csoundextraopcodes.c -lm); once it is compiled, it will automatically work.
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19:51:17 <nooga> btw. I'm writing a roguelike with it's own, runic, esoteric programming language for inscribing items
19:52:03 <nooga> script your own items, cool, huh?
19:52:32 <zzo38> OK write a description of such programming language in esolang wiki then?
19:53:07 <nooga> the problem is that it does not exist at the moment
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19:53:32 <nooga> i have only vague idea how to tackle it
19:54:53 <zzo38> Write the ideas on a user subpage perhaps.
19:55:15 <quintopia> i figured out how metajousting would work yesterday
19:56:49 <zzo38> I changed S, R, clock, to x-rate instead of a-rate. This "flipflop" command I made up can be used to convert other signals into a square wave one octave lower.
19:56:57 <zzo38> quintopia: How does metajousting work?
19:57:50 <quintopia> the rules about the tape and polarities are the same as for bfjoust
19:58:22 <quintopia> but the "flag" cells are initialized to zero, because the goal is not to tear down the flags on the regular tape
19:58:45 <quintopia> instead, there is a second two-cell three-bit tape, with both initialized to 7
19:59:08 <quintopia> and each player has a pointer to one of these cells on this tape
19:59:26 <quintopia> we reinclude . and , to mean what they do in bf
20:00:07 <quintopia> but, if a player outputs 0, it flips the meta-pointer to the other cell, and if it outputs 1 or -1, it increments or decrements the cell the metapointer is pointing to
20:01:04 <quintopia> and , copies the current value of the pointed cell on the metatape to the regular tape
20:01:14 <quintopia> the goal is to lower the metaflag for two cycles
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20:06:32 <zzo38> Now implement it and/or write a wiki article about it.
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20:31:05 <oerjan> 16:48:39: <Phantom_Hoover> i'm handing control of this project over to you, you are more likely to know about witches in the hexham area
20:31:08 <oerjan> 16:49:21: <atriq> I can't think of any specific witch off the top of my head, but I'll put out some feelers
20:31:20 <oerjan> isn't everyone in hexham a witch? it's sort of in the name...
20:31:47 <oerjan> except i hear "hex" in that sense has only been borrowed into american english...
20:33:30 <oerjan> btw in norwegian fairy tales a "hekseham" is an animal hide used by a witch to turn into that animal
20:34:50 <oerjan> or wait would that be a hide someone uses to turn into a witch...
20:36:58 <oerjan> "dyreham" might be more correct.
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20:41:28 * Phantom_Hoover googles 'hekse' in an attempt to confirm this, ends up at http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heks
20:41:53 <atriq> elliott is in luck
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20:42:37 <atriq> http://translate.google.co.uk/#en/da/witch%20home
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20:47:30 <oerjan> atriq: that would be combined into heksehjem
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20:54:40 <oerjan> that minks language has some awkward flow control
20:54:55 <atriq> More or less awkward than Fueue?
20:55:25 <oerjan> more i should think, although the paradigms are completely different so how to compare...
20:56:03 <oerjan> there are enough registers to do a collatz function similar to the 3-cell bf, but i'm not sure whether it is possible to manipulate conditions in the right way
20:56:46 <oerjan> i don't yet see a way to set a condition only if a register is 0
20:57:40 <oerjan> and you cannot clear conditions at all if both registers are far from 0
21:01:05 <oerjan> however it is easy to set one register if another is set
21:01:35 <quintopia> zzo38: it would be trivial to implement, but i don't feel like doing that or writing it up
21:05:35 <fizzie> The grad school funding thing that pays for my salary is called "Hecse". There are no hams involved, though.
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21:12:44 <zzo38> Is there any driver to emulate physical damage in a disk image?
21:13:28 <oerjan> zzo38: a screwdriver hth
21:16:00 <zzo38> It is not what I mean.
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21:39:48 <fizzie> Linux device-mapper has a "dm-flakey" target.
21:39:59 <fizzie> "This target is the same as the linear target except that it exhibits unreliable behaviour periodically. It's been found useful in simulating failing devices for testing purposes."
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21:41:02 <FreeFull> Well, how else are you supposed to know if your code does the right thing in bad conditions without having bad hardware
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21:42:07 <fizzie> You give it numbers X and Y, and then it cycles so that it's available for X seconds, then it's broken for Y seconds, and so on. By default when it's broken it's totally broken, but you can also tell it to instead drop all writes but work correctly when reading, or to corrupt every N'th byte of each matching IO request data block.
21:43:01 <zzo38> Can you also tell it what parts of the disk are broken?
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21:44:13 <fizzie> I don't think it has an option for that, though it probably should be possible to do that too with device-mapper somehow. Possibly with some setup involving dm-delay too.
21:46:26 <fizzie> If nothing else, you should be able to make your "disk" by combining dm-linear's mapping to the non-broken parts and dm-flakeys for the broken ones. Some scripting would undoubtedly be involved.
21:53:25 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so in DF, minecarts going quickly around sharp bends jump the tracks and spill their contents everywhere at high speed.
21:54:04 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, did you do this by accident, or are you planning to do this delibrately
21:54:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Obviously, even in DF it'd be pretty ridiculous to accidentally build a magma linear accelerator.
21:55:44 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH minecarts are also a much more practical way of transporting magma over long distances than pump stacks, so I was planning to do it anyway.
21:55:45 <atriq> Maybe you accidentally built your magma forges miles away from lava
21:55:51 <atriq> Because you sneezed
21:56:01 <atriq> And thought "let's be dorfy!"
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22:18:40 <Sgeo__> http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/254
22:32:19 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
22:32:24 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 28m ago: well the part about conditions starting True was also in the talk page; the other change was that only conditions before commands count for the loop checking, which your
22:32:24 <lambdabot> truth machine depends on. feel free to undo it but then you need to change both your implementation and your truth machine.
22:32:25 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 26m 32s ago: that is, the condition x is used as a target in the truth machine, but ignored for the loop check
22:32:25 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 23m 28s ago: also i certainly don't consider your use of bounded integers to be authoritative >:)
22:32:28 <oerjan> ah thinking of the devil...
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22:33:33 <oerjan> ...it's a stock phrase, slightly modified.
22:36:53 <oerjan> i think the impossibility of clearing conditions while both registers are non-zero implies Minks is not TC
22:38:20 <Arc_Koen> I was afraid you might say that
22:47:56 <oerjan> oh hm actually the more serious problem is that there is no way to set one condition based on another _not_ being set.
22:48:56 <oerjan> wait that's an oversimplification too
22:52:39 <Arc_Koen> yeah hmm "there is no way to" doesn't seem like something easy to prove
22:55:16 <oerjan> it's not true when a register is close to 0 :P
22:55:58 <oerjan> the actual argument is somewhat more complicated.
22:57:44 <oerjan> you make a graph where the vertices are conditions, and there is an edge between conditions if there's a dec or DEC instruction causing the one to set the other
23:00:22 <oerjan> when both registers are set, conditions gradually get set to True along the paths of that graph, until there are no more edges to follow. this must happen in a number of loops <= the diameter of the graph.
23:01:12 <oerjan> once this happens, no conditions can change again until one of the registers reaches 0.
23:05:55 <Arc_Koen> so the graph is one way of describing the program?
23:09:04 <oerjan> i am having an annoying intuition not to try to explain this
23:09:45 <oerjan> ...maybe there's an error in the argument somewhere, then.
23:11:48 * oerjan is more inclined to think his intuition is just being an asshole.
23:20:31 <atriq> How can I encode that in Haskell...
23:20:41 <atriq> AGE_AT_EVENT: = {Size=1:12}
23:20:41 <atriq> [ YYy MMm DDDd | YYy | MMm | DDDd |
23:20:41 <atriq> YYy MMm | YYy DDDd | MMm DDDd |
23:20:41 <atriq> CHILD | INFANT | STILLBORN ]
23:20:47 <atriq> From the GEDCOM specs
23:21:49 <Arc_Koen> is that when you're dead before being born?
23:22:18 <atriq> I'm inclined to make the first part an Ordering
23:22:31 <Arc_Koen> can I ask why you're doing this? it sounds depressing
23:22:53 <atriq> I'm writing a genealogy library in haskell
23:22:59 <atriq> It's a long term project
23:24:39 <Arc_Koen> are stillborn that relevant for genealogy purposes? I don't think they get to have much offspring
23:24:54 <atriq> This is a standard that I'm trying to stick to
23:33:34 <Phantom_Hoover> i let the vampire out so i could move her into a strand extraction facility
23:35:18 <Arc_Koen> did you at least give her suncream?
23:39:46 <Phantom_Hoover> every time she actually goes inside her little prison she immediately leaves and feeds again
23:40:15 <Phantom_Hoover> on her way to the bedrooms, she has passed the people carrying both elliott and Vorpal's bodies to the tombs
23:42:07 <Phantom_Hoover> those 3 deaths alone were enough to make like 10 dorfs miserable
23:43:33 <oerjan> time to exercise some exorcism
23:43:47 <Arc_Koen> so three of your people have been killed because they were trying to rescue dead bodies?
23:43:57 <Arc_Koen> and now there are 5 dead bodies and nobody to rescue them?
23:44:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Bodies moved to tombs. Vampire moves to other section of fortress where I am vainly attempting to trap her.
23:45:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Tombs are also in this section. Vampire slips the net, moves back to bedrooms to feed again. People carrying Vorpal and elliott's bodies are going the other way and pass her in the corridor.
23:46:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Vampire kills third dorf, I follow her back and trap her properly this time.
23:46:09 <Arc_Koen> you said "vampire moves to other section"
23:46:28 <Arc_Koen> I was assuming "other than the section the "moving bodies to tomb" action takes place in"
23:49:57 <Phantom_Hoover> i have a robust justice system and a lot of happiness boosters in place; i hope it's enough
23:52:11 <Phantom_Hoover> a robust system where the captain of the guard is asleep, preventing any crimes being reported
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00:20:24 <Phantom_Hoover> The mayor has gone berserk, and she's friends with half the fortress.
00:21:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Great, we've now got even more miserable dorfs than just after the 3 murders.
00:23:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a feeling the entire fortress is hanging by a thread.
00:25:32 <oerjan> you should find that damocles dorf and ask him
00:29:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, see, that is what happens when you put the dwarf named after me in peril
00:30:36 <Phantom_Hoover> your life is worth nothing next to a great strand extractor!
00:31:51 <Vorpal> hm when were vampires added?
00:32:05 <Vorpal> I don't remember seeing them, and I haven't played for several months by now
00:34:28 <Vorpal> atriq, so how do they work when it comes to strand extractors?
00:34:52 <atriq> I've never stuck with a fortress long enough to encounter one
00:38:26 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, if I can't stem this tantrum spiral, I can at least make sure I have enough coffins to bury everyone in the fort!
00:43:05 <zzo38> Need you to bury everyone in the fort?
00:44:18 <zzo38> And if so, are you sure you require coffins to do so?
00:46:21 <Phantom_Hoover> to prevent miasma and unhappy thoughts from friends and relatives
00:46:31 <Phantom_Hoover> although by this point i'm not sure the latter will help at all
00:46:51 <Phantom_Hoover> otoh: the number of miserable dorfs has fallen somewhat!
00:47:38 <oerjan> fallen off this mortal coil
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01:02:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the good news is that the military can keep the place defended until the food runs out, which given current trends I would extrapolate to be until... forever.
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01:50:24 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan is *still* sane and valiantly tending to the wounded, despite having been miserable for most of this mess.
02:13:28 <Phantom_Hoover> The vampire strand extractor who started all this just died...
02:17:24 <Sgeo__> Phantom_Hoover, am I alive?
02:25:12 <kmc> fileserver is being described as "99.91% up"
02:25:31 <kmc> much improved from before anyway
02:26:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I think the only lesson I can really take away from this experience is "don't fuck around with vampires".
02:26:37 <shachaf> filserver is 0.09% down. netcraft confirms it
02:26:52 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: that's what took down the fileserver too
02:27:06 <kmc> if by "vampires" you mean "poorly designed SATA hot-swap power electronics"
02:27:07 <oerjan> `quote <Phantom_Hoover> I think the only lesson I can really take away from this experience is "don't fuck around with vampires".
02:27:15 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> I think the only lesson I can really take away from this experience is "don't fuck around with vampires".
02:27:41 <HackEgo> 855) <Phantom_Hoover> I think the only lesson I can really take away from this experience is "don't fuck around with vampires".
02:33:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Well I suppose I know not to fuck around with the vampire this time.
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03:39:10 <zzo38> I made "ares, aloop phasorloop xcps, [iphs], [iamp], [iloopstart], [iloopend]", where ares is a saw wave and aloop is 1 initially and becomes 0 after it loops once.
03:41:43 <zzo38> It could be used to index a table for looped sample playback, if you need something more complicated than loscil and so on.
03:44:28 <zzo38> This is similar to lphasor but there are some differences, such as the aloop output.
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05:09:32 <shachaf> <Multi_key> <underscore> <U2260> : "≢" U2262 # _ ≠ NOT IDENTICAL TO
05:14:27 <shachaf> pikhq_: That's not what I mean.
05:14:31 <pikhq_> 'Course, doesn't help with ≢
06:01:44 <zzo38> What is Japanese time zone?
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06:43:23 <Fiora> the last page of the update is wonderful
06:52:58 <Gregor> What the HELL? I'm ssh'd into my old phone, hacking Debian onto it, and it just rebooted, judging by the screen… except that I'm still ssh'd into it. And it's still… doing stuff. Over ssh.
06:53:46 <Sgeo__> According to one random person on #clojure, I am able to "think really hard"
06:54:01 <Sgeo__> And am thus being solicited by this random person for thoughts on a proposal on a mailing list
06:59:51 <Sgeo__> I think it has been used to mean "UPDATE!" in pound-MSPA
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07:03:28 <coppro> I especially like that you get volume control back after the bar is removed
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09:34:00 <shachaf> zomg http://ehird.blogspot.com/
09:35:08 <monqy> @ask elliott 01:34:00 <shachaf> zomg http://ehird.blogspot.com/
09:35:23 <shachaf> @tell elliott is that the real ehird
09:37:03 <shachaf> monqy: why did you ask elliott that
09:37:27 <monqy> "he deserves to know"
09:37:39 <monqy> 2010 is a scary place
09:37:49 <monqy> especially in january 05, yikes
09:38:12 <shachaf> monqy: "i was hoping to keep it between you and me"
09:38:22 <shachaf> "and whoever is in the channel or reads the logs"
09:39:04 <shachaf> monqy: You should learn lens!
09:39:10 <shachaf> And then help me figure out my lens problems.
09:41:06 <fizzie> logs/freenode/#esoteric/2010-01.log:[2010-01-06 00:31:45] <ehird> everyone should preemptively add http://ehird.blogspot.com/ to their feed readers because i am awesome
09:41:36 <shachaf> @ask elliott 01:41 <fizzie> logs/freenode/#esoteric/2010-01.log:[2010-01-06 00:31:45] <ehird> everyone should preemptively add http://ehird.blogspot.com/ to their feed readers because i am awesome
09:41:50 <monqy> wow you beat me to it !
09:43:28 <lambdabot> Plugin `tell' failed with: Prelude.head: empty list
09:45:23 <oklopol> so ielliott's blog seems a bit singleton.
09:59:06 <shachaf> monqy: Did you learn lens yet?
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10:04:50 <atriq> "You got torn about by four horses, which did rather discourage people"
11:16:07 <monqy> but I really haven't!
11:19:09 <shachaf> monqy: when did you grow a nose
11:22:47 <shachaf> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
11:22:54 <shachaf> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
11:23:00 <shachaf> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
11:23:06 <shachaf> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
11:23:12 <shachaf> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
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11:49:34 <shachaf> ion: Are there any parts of lens left for you to figure out yet?
11:50:28 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, a library for Haskell obfuscation
11:51:56 <atriq> type Lens s t a b = Functor f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t
11:52:15 <atriq> If the Functor is Identity, you've got a setter
11:52:29 <atriq> If the Functor is Const r, you've got a Getter
11:52:48 <ion> shachaf: I’m not sure. I haven’t looked through all of it yet.
11:52:56 <shachaf> atriq: What if it's a Context a b t?
11:53:11 <shachaf> atriq: What if it's a Context a b?
11:53:15 <atriq> Then you have a lens, I believe
11:53:33 <atriq> You're the second biggest contributor to this library, you should know
11:54:02 <shachaf> Oh, that's just nonsense commits.
11:55:11 <shachaf> ion: Please fix the hierarchy to look like that. :-(
11:56:00 <ion> shachaf: Ok, fixed. I also added type families while i was at it.
11:56:30 <shachaf> I mean, where do type families belong?
11:58:17 <ion> shachaf: For constraints, so you can make Set a functor for instance.
11:59:08 <shachaf> Besides Set will never be Applicative.
12:00:51 <atriq> class Functor f => Pointed f where pure :: a -> f a; unit :: f (); pure a = a <$ unit; unit = pure ()
12:02:24 <atriq> class Functor f => Apply f where (<*>) :: f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b; azip :: f a -> f b -> f (a, b); azip as bs = (,) <$> as <*> bs; fs <*> as = uncurry id <$> azip fs bs
12:02:39 <atriq> type Applicative f = (Pointed f, Apply f)
12:02:50 <ion> That’s not zipping.
12:03:05 <shachaf> atriq: No, Applicative has laws.
12:03:12 <shachaf> As edwardk pointed out in the other channel earlier.
12:03:46 <atriq> ion, is that me making a mistake, or is that me naming things badly?
12:04:06 <ion> > zip [0..5] [0..5]
12:04:08 <lambdabot> [(0,0),(1,1),(2,2),(3,3),(4,4),(5,5)]
12:04:11 <ion> > liftA2 (,) [0..5] [0..5]
12:04:13 <lambdabot> [(0,0),(0,1),(0,2),(0,3),(0,4),(0,5),(1,0),(1,1),(1,2),(1,3),(1,4),(1,5),(2...
12:04:27 <shachaf> > getZipList $ liftA2 (,) (ZipList [0..5]) (ZipList [0..5])
12:04:28 <lambdabot> [(0,0),(1,1),(2,2),(3,3),(4,4),(5,5)]
12:05:27 <atriq> You could do "class (Pointed f, Apply f) => Applicative f
12:06:49 <atriq> class (Apply f, forall a. Semigroup (f a)) => Alt f
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15:56:32 <Phantom_Hoover> oh for-- i got another great strand extractor who isn't a vampire
15:56:45 <Phantom_Hoover> all this fucking around with doors and levers was pointless
15:57:14 <nortti> does anyone here have any experience with seamonkey 1.5 or seamonkey on windows 95
15:59:00 <monqy> is this about a dumpster computer
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16:01:47 <monqy> yikes, shachaf!!!!!!!!
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16:02:54 <monqy> how did this happen
16:03:04 <nortti> monqy: no. I'm going to fork seamonkey
16:03:16 -!- elliott has joined.
16:03:23 <shachaf> monqy: i don't even know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
16:03:56 <shachaf> you have a long way to go monqy
16:03:57 <nortti> monqy: actually depends on whether you count my computer as dumpster conmputer
16:04:06 <monqy> did you get it from a dumpster
16:04:19 <monqy> then it's a dumpster computer.......................
16:04:30 <elliott> dumpster computers are computers that compute dumpsters
16:04:30 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 10 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:05:04 <nortti> elliott: how does one compute dumpsters?
16:05:21 <shachaf> elliott: I demand @messages in public
16:05:56 <shachaf> elliott: why cant you be like nortti?
16:06:08 <monqy> does this make me Cool
16:06:16 <nortti> shachaf: do you want elliot to be insane?
16:07:02 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:07:03 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages?
16:07:06 <shachaf> Did you know I have OVER A THOUSAND stackoverflow points?
16:07:13 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages?
16:07:35 -!- elliott has left.
16:07:36 <shachaf> monqy: "not meant as an insult btw"
16:07:52 <shachaf> monqy: "just saying you shouldn't have done that"
16:09:51 -!- elliott has joined.
16:13:57 <elliott> wolfe.freenode.net set +t for no apparent reason
16:15:49 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
16:15:53 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -t.
16:15:56 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
16:16:31 <elliott> thanks fizzie. you're the best
16:22:14 <shachaf> elliott: I didn't link you to it.
16:22:37 <shachaf> I came across it in an unrelated context and mentioned it in the channel out of surprise.
16:22:43 <shachaf> Then monqy sent you a message.
16:23:42 <monqy> are you sleep-typing
16:24:04 <shachaf> Actually I was waiting for my laundry to finish.
16:24:10 <monqy> that's not sleeping
16:25:52 <zzo38> O no! It seems that GEN plugins in Csound cannot take string parameters, since the name of the plugin is already a string parameter.
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16:28:23 <zzo38> Did this channel used to have a -t mode lock? CS INFO #esoteric currently reports only +n mode lock
16:28:45 <zzo38> Also did the founder be changed?
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16:40:16 <zzo38> Another possible use of zero-length arrays in C would be type idenfication, I think. For example: #define T(x) (sizeof((x).typeid[0])) Would it work, though?
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17:29:43 <kmc> 'Cambridge Police: Woman summonsed after grabbing EMT’s breasts'
17:30:47 -!- Taneb has changed nick to atriq.
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18:12:54 <zzo38> I did figure out a way to send string parameters to GEN plugins using GEN01 deferred allocation. It is a bit klugy but it does work.
18:27:55 <fizzie> 20:26 [freenode] -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- Founder : freenode-staff
18:27:59 <fizzie> Yes, I think that's new.
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18:41:44 <zzo38> Was the mode lock set before? I don't know, maybe I don't remember.
18:45:42 <Vorpal> <fizzie> 20:26 [freenode] -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- Founder : freenode-staff <-- ouch
18:45:54 <Vorpal> so the account of the original owner expired
18:53:50 <fizzie> There was a +nc-mst mode lock before; there have also been mode locks +sc, +n-s, -nt, +ntc-slk and +n.
18:56:29 <fizzie> [2012-06-12 15:47:08] <fizzie> I don't set modes. Anyway, -n is ANARCHY and CHAOS and HINGE.
18:56:48 <fizzie> It was -n few moments there in June, and I think that was enough.
18:56:58 <fizzie> It was after all exactly those things.
18:57:15 <elliott> fizzie: OK but you set modes today.
18:58:02 <elliott> fizzie: also codu doesn't record you as saying that????
18:58:06 <elliott> either that day or the two surrounding days
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19:03:36 <fizzie> http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2012-06-12.txt seems to have an inexplicable gap from 07:19:17 to 14:56:03 -- I have 343 lines of stuffs in-between those.
19:04:19 <fizzie> [2012-06-12 15:33:22] <elliott> Gregor: Yo, fix glogbot already.
19:04:23 <fizzie> History; it's so malleable.
19:05:32 <Gregor> fizzie: Send me those lines and I can integrate them. Richards@codu.org .
19:05:49 <fizzie> They're in a stupid format. Does that matter?
19:05:57 <Gregor> Depends how stupid, I suppose :)
19:06:01 <fizzie> The thing I've been pasting has been a fake.
19:06:08 <Gregor> I always have to change the format, since glogbot logs in raw IRC.
19:06:15 <fizzie> In reality it looks like 12-06-2012 15:33:22 < elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott: Gregor: Yo, fix glogbot already.
19:06:16 <quintopia> gregor doesnt incorporate things that require extra effort
19:06:29 -!- elliott has joined.
19:06:34 <quintopia> for instance, the new bfjoust scoring system
19:06:54 <Gregor> quintopia: Logs are more important than BFJoust ;)
19:07:24 <elliott> fizzie: I bet -n broke glogbot.
19:07:27 <Gregor> Eeeeeevery log is saaaaaaaacred
19:07:32 <Gregor> Eeeeeevery log is goooooooooood
19:07:32 <elliott> Gregor: Can glogbot handle people talking who aren't in the channel?
19:07:58 <Gregor> elliott: Sure, it doesn't really care who's in the channel except to know how to report QUIT.
19:10:22 <zzo38> Yes I have tried it, if you sent message directly to glogbot it will still be logged (except password command).
19:11:51 <fizzie> If you privmsg your password to glogbot, it will show up as "hunter2".
19:13:02 <zzo38> Well if that is your password it will. I mean specifically password command not just a command which contains your password. I think.
19:17:18 <zzo38> My logs are also raw IRC, although still different from glogbot; I use SIRCL although it should be easy to convert between if you don't need microseconds.
19:22:43 <zzo38> Some log formats don't log hostnames, don't log seconds, etc, if you need to convert a format without hostnames into one that has, I suggest using "notavailable.pseudo", and if one without seconds/microseconds to one that has, to use zero.
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19:31:16 <atriq> elliott, did you start the fortress yet!
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19:44:18 <atriq> Help I'm having a positive influence on the community
19:44:31 <fizzie> Start saying the opposite of what you would otherwise say.
19:44:36 <fizzie> That should balance things out.
19:44:44 <atriq> That's a brilliant idea
19:44:49 <atriq> Not ridiculous at all
19:45:01 <fizzie> Oh, you started already. Good.
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20:10:24 <atriq> data Stack :: (* -> * -> *) where EmptyStack :: Stack Zero a; PushStack :: a -> Stack n a -> Stack (Succ n) a
20:10:37 <atriq> I need to mess with GADTs more
20:11:23 <atriq> It's not an operator
20:11:30 <atriq> This is messy experimental Haskell stuff
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20:11:31 <Arc_Koen> in ocaml it means cons (as in head :: tail)
20:11:39 <atriq> In Haskell, that would be :
20:11:54 <atriq> :: means "Had type of" or, as here, "Has kind of"
20:12:06 <oerjan> yeah those are switched :)
20:12:32 <Arc_Koen> yeah you can use : to force a type in ocaml
20:12:38 <atriq> Did the creators of ML and Haskell get together and say "How awkward can we make it for people to switch between the two?"
20:13:00 <oerjan> atriq: i assume haskell borrowed it from miranda
20:13:09 <oerjan> ML was definitely oldest
20:13:12 <Arc_Koen> and ocaml is french, so it's ok to be reversed
20:13:27 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i assume it's the same in standard ml as in ocaml
20:13:56 <zzo38> I don't need a type "Succ" if the type "Maybe" would work?
20:14:28 <oerjan> zzo38: i think you can use Maybe instead of Succ for type-level calculations, yes
20:14:41 <atriq> zzo38, you could even use [] or IO
20:15:06 <zzo38> atriq: Yes you could, but if Zero is uninhabited then you have (Maybe (Maybe (Maybe Zero))) with three possible values, and so on.
20:15:12 <Deewiant> ML : and :: are Miranda :: and :, yes
20:15:18 <atriq> Or StateT [Integer] (WriterT Ordering STM)
20:15:27 <atriq> zzo38, it's the types that matter, not the values
20:15:53 <zzo38> It is why I would use Maybe here, even if the values are not used. Since, it will be compatible with something which does use values of that type.
20:16:10 <oerjan> i guess the rationale is that cons is more often used than type annotation
20:16:16 <atriq> You could, if you want, replace Zero with any type of kind *
20:16:31 <atriq> It doesn't matter if the type has values or not
20:16:35 <zzo38> Therefore in (Stack n a) then you can use the n type as an index to read something inside the stack.
20:16:38 <oerjan> while original ML borrowed the : from mathematical type theory
20:17:26 <oerjan> mind you miranda had a crazy type notation - type variables were *, **, *** etc.
20:17:55 <oerjan> so haskell improved some of the syntax
20:18:04 <zzo38> atriq: Yes you could do that too; but at least how I generally do, is define Zero as uninhabited, and use that as the number zero in types as well as using it as an uninhabited type in general.
20:18:29 <kmc> they should have used *, †, ‡, etc.
20:18:47 <oerjan> miranda was almost certainly pre-unicode
20:19:03 <kmc> i'll make my own encoding! with blackjack! and hookers!
20:19:32 <oerjan> has anyone made their own esolang with blackjack and hookers yet
20:19:51 <Fiora> kmc: UTF-HOMESTUCK?
20:20:19 <zzo38> I think you should use name mangling for codes higher than ASCII, like CWEB and Punycode does.
20:21:15 <atriq> Fiora, are you on Sgeo__'s list of people to tell when an update happens?
20:21:22 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure ghc does in the backend(s)
20:21:54 <zzo38> I think they should do that with Haskell, too. Or, if is made Ibtlfmm with a Unicode extension, it makes the name like that, so that the same file can be used with ASCII files.
20:21:57 <oerjan> z<character> means something else
20:22:33 <zzo38> oerjan: But is it possible to do it with source files?
20:23:03 <kmc> we already have a fine way to represent unicode characters as sequences of bytes
20:23:17 <oerjan> ghc always assumes utf-8 for source file contents (ignoring comments which are more lenient)
20:23:23 <kmc> amazingly there are people in the world who don't use English as their primary language
20:23:28 <kmc> and might want to edit documents in their native tongue
20:23:32 <kmc> including source code
20:23:51 <fizzie> kmc: And that fine way is surely UTF-1.
20:23:54 <oerjan> what was that icelandic programming language again
20:24:29 <kmc> a bunch of countries had national localized variants of BASIC
20:24:35 <zzo38> kmc: Yes I agree you might want to do that, but you can use whatever encoding you want it shouldn't require Unicode specifically. As long as it is ASCII compatible, comments can be in any encoding you want.
20:24:38 <Sgeo__> How do you get "more lenient" than an encoding? Is GHC expected to guess what encodings are used in a comment?
20:24:44 <kmc> usually as part of some government "teach our children to computer good" initiative
20:24:46 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fj%C3%B6lnir_(programming_language)
20:24:49 <Fiora> atriq: yes yes I am
20:24:52 <kmc> Sgeo__: you can allow invalid UTF-8 sequences in comments
20:25:05 <kmc> basically you look for the terminator "-}" as a byte sequence
20:25:07 <Fiora> it is super useful actually
20:25:10 <zzo38> kmc: Yes I think invalid UTF-8 sequences should be allowed in comments.
20:25:31 <kmc> so then you can use UTF-8 or ISO-8859-anything in comments
20:25:52 <Sgeo__> Can't use UTF-16 in comments though
20:26:00 <kmc> true but why the fuck would you do that
20:26:08 <kmc> multibyte CJK encodings is a more realistic concern
20:26:29 <zzo38> I agree you should be allowed to use anything in comments as long as not conflict with the ASCII codes which terminate the comment.
20:26:30 <kmc> sadly } is not in the ISO 646 invariant set, so if I go back in time 40 years and try to program Haskell on a norwegian microcomputer I might have some troubles
20:26:45 <oerjan> zzo38: i guess ghc decided to do only utf-8 to avoid a mess for transferring files between people with different setups
20:26:46 <kmc> have to end your comments with -å
20:27:07 <kmc> GHC also allows non-ASCII identifiers though
20:27:09 <elliott> probably ghc did utf-8 only because it is the only reasonable thing to do
20:27:17 <kmc> and for those you need to know both the encoding and the character properties database
20:27:23 <pikhq_> zzo38: Character encodings come in two sorts: UTF-8, and insane.
20:27:29 <pikhq_> I do not support insanity.
20:28:03 <zzo38> Unicode (I don't mean UTF-8, I mean Unicode in general) is crazy.
20:28:26 <pikhq_> Near as I can tell, essentially all complexity in Unicode is inherent to the domain.
20:28:33 <pikhq_> Unicode is complex because *text* is complex.
20:28:36 <kmc> unicode is pretty crazy but the advantages of using this global standard outweigh whatever complexity could be avoided by using your weird thing
20:28:47 <pikhq_> There's a small handful of things that could be simplified about it.
20:29:06 <pikhq_> But those are things you're probably not even thinking of.
20:29:09 <kmc> of course i am talking to someone who thinks that gopher is the best hypertext protocol and magic the gathering is the best programming language
20:29:16 <zzo38> I don't care if they don't do anything other than UTF-8 that is OK, as long as it is compatible with ASCII, which UTF-8 is. But they should allow the names to have ASCII equivalents, somewhat like Punycode does it. Or, just use ASCII encoding and ignore Unicode and everything, and do name conversion like CWEB does it.
20:29:50 <oerjan> Fiora: Sgeo__ the human feed reader
20:29:52 <kmc> people who speak only english tend to have poor perspective on the way text works globally
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20:30:11 <kmc> english is like the simplest case
20:30:11 <pikhq_> (Korean could be encoded jamo by jamo instead of jamo by jamo *or* syllable by syllable, for instance)
20:30:36 <pikhq_> kmc: ASCII doesn't even *quite* handle English, it just handles a sizeable subset of English.
20:30:47 <kmc> it handles enough that most english speakers don't really care
20:30:58 <zzo38> Therefore it work as well with UTF-8 as anything else if you don't care about encoding and just ensure that 8-bits encoding works.
20:31:00 <Sgeo__> What of English does ASCII not handle?
20:31:13 <kmc> but english might be almost the only language that's true for
20:31:16 <pikhq_> Sgeo__: Well, you see, “quotation” doesn't work in ASCII properly.
20:31:20 <kmc> even among those using the latin alphabet
20:31:25 <kmc> confusion of hyphen and minus
20:31:33 <kmc> all kinds of typographical stuff that's used in english text
20:31:56 <kmc> ASCII has $ but not £; English my ass!
20:32:07 <zzo38> You can code typographical stuff in TeX, even using only ASCII input file.
20:32:26 <elliott> kmc: can you enlighten me, why are you arguing with zzo about encodings
20:32:26 <zzo38> But, TeX does support 8-bit input file too, if it would help.
20:32:31 <kmc> yeah i dunno
20:32:34 <pikhq_> zzo38: Or you can do it in a transparent and clean manner by encoding things properly.
20:32:37 <elliott> been wondering that for a few minutes
20:32:52 <kmc> i think i'm not so much arguing with zzo38 as vigorously agreeing with everyone else
20:32:59 <pikhq_> zzo38: By the way, have fun using ASCII input for Japanese.
20:32:59 <kmc> i know that zzo38 is a harmless and entertaining crackpot
20:33:25 <kmc> but it bugs me how much that attitude pervades programming communities
20:33:58 <zzo38> Just do what CWEB does with 8-bit characters.
20:34:22 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, to exercise his keyboard, maybe
20:34:43 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Near as I can tell, he thinks that "a char is a character" is holy doctrine.
20:35:26 <nortti> lets make char 32bit. problem solved
20:35:41 <pikhq_> A codepoint is not a character.
20:35:49 <zzo38> Unicode is being stupid. In applications where you need universal character sets, it would have been better to design to change code points so that you don't need a lot of tables to know how to decode everything and fallback and so on.
20:36:42 <pikhq_> zzo38: Your proposal requires *more* tables.
20:36:54 <kmc> zzo38: that would be simpler tech but it would not accurately represent the complexities of how text is used world wide
20:36:59 <kmc> including the need to accommodate legacy encodings
20:37:01 <Phantom_Hoover> anyway, afaict oerjan's dorf is miserable solely because someone else has a slightly better bedroom
20:37:21 <kmc> unicode would be a lot simpler if it didn't have to interconvert with legacy encodings, and there would be some value in that
20:37:30 <kmc> but it would hinder adoption
20:38:51 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: darn that dorf really _is_ me, isn't he.
20:39:03 <kmc> frankly i'm sick of programmers who have maximal privilege wrt character encodings complaining about the extra work necessary to make computers accessible to others
20:40:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yo how do you do the dfhack thing
20:40:54 <kmc> but hey as long as your software works for rich, able bodied English speakers living in San Francisco, that's good enough to make loads of cash
20:42:25 <zzo38> I make open source software so if someone wants something which I don't want, they can add it, anyways.
20:43:11 <oerjan> 16:28:23: <zzo38> Did this channel used to have a -t mode lock? CS INFO #esoteric currently reports only +n mode lock
20:43:14 <oerjan> 16:28:45: <zzo38> Also did the founder be changed?
20:43:51 <oerjan> (1) fizzie had just changed it back (2) i think andreou was finally deregistered in freenode's last database cleanup
20:44:06 <kmc> zzo38: but you can design it in such a way that others can add these features later
20:44:09 <oerjan> and the default policy is to transfer to freenode staff.
20:44:19 <kmc> or you can design it in a way that is willfully incompatible with the global standard
20:44:22 <kmc> for no reason
20:45:12 <zzo38> kmc: I design in whatever way I think is best. Usually that means that any ASCII-compatible encoding (such as UTF-8, CP437, etc) is allowed in comments.
20:45:50 <zzo38> And possibly in text too, it just won't decode it unless you tell it explicitly what it is.
20:50:17 <oerjan> fizzie: FUNGOT DEFICIENCY!
20:50:34 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:50:48 -!- fungot has joined.
20:50:52 <fungot> SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM ...too much output!
20:50:56 -!- nooga has joined.
20:51:08 <oerjan> elliott: see my assistant fungot's counterargument
20:51:09 <fungot> oerjan: someone once said it seems to come up with for ( f 2 1) 2
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20:51:45 <elliott> oerjan: spammers don't actually use that, come on
20:52:30 <fizzie> The very last time I -n'd it was immediately all "HOKUM PRO HOKUM FREE SNAKES & A BARREL COME TO GOOGLE.EXE" from random-looking nicknames.
20:53:02 <elliott> fizzie: right but i seem to recall that was actually me
20:53:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i just found out, dfhack also actually fixes two major bugs if you use the right commands
20:53:38 <elliott> btw did that underwater bug ever get fixed
20:53:48 <oerjan> elliott: we prefer to have spammers where we can at least potentially ban them. hth.
20:53:54 <elliott> oerjan: +b works with -n...
20:53:59 <elliott> stuff can't send to the channel if it's banned
20:54:11 <elliott> well cf. the fact that you can't send messages while banned but in a channel
20:54:17 <atriq> elliott, apparently there's a which in Hexham who has a shop opposite Gaia
20:54:21 <elliott> I haven't actually tested it but you'd have to specifically code it to be really stupid for it not to work
20:54:36 <Phantom_Hoover> anyway, the bugs are that humans and elves are meant to send diplomats
20:54:52 <atriq> elliott, which is on Market Street, I think
20:55:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: oh, well, no risk of diplomats where we're going
20:55:14 <oerjan> elliott: i dunno, it would be more efficient not to have to check a nick against the ban list on every message
20:55:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's all under control
20:55:24 <fizzie> atriq: I liked it more when you were talking about a which.
20:55:54 <elliott> oerjan: ...but you already have to do that (and bans aren't regexps)
20:56:02 <elliott> because people who are banned cannot talk even if they are still in the channel
20:56:22 <fizzie> You need a which in order to become a dak.
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20:56:52 <lambdabot> *** "dak" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
20:56:53 <lambdabot> n 1: East Indian tree bearing a profusion of intense vermilion
20:56:53 <lambdabot> velvet-textured blooms and yielding a yellow dye [syn:
20:56:53 <lambdabot> {dhak}, {dak}, {palas}, {Butea frondosa}, {Butea
20:57:10 <elliott> oerjan: anyway my point is -n pls
20:57:28 <oerjan> elliott: but if it doesn't include people sending from outside the channel you only need to check the regexps when someone joins or the ban list is changed
20:57:51 <oerjan> then you can set a simple flag to check on each message
20:57:56 <zzo38> Is the source codes for this IRC server available, if so can you check?
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20:58:05 <elliott> oerjan: ok how about we test it
20:58:13 <elliott> then I try to send messages
20:58:38 <elliott> it is like science but with more pain
20:59:34 <oerjan> hexham's coven consists of a which, a whose and a wherefore
20:59:52 <elliott> please it's been ages since I was kicked
20:59:55 <elliott> need to keep up my reputation
21:00:11 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
21:00:49 <elliott> you need to remove +n from it
21:00:55 <zzo38> Probably mode lock; you need a CS command to change it
21:01:20 <zzo38> Try CS HELP to see what command you need
21:01:36 -!- tswett_ has changed nick to tswett.
21:03:40 <atriq> I want to through money at iTunes, but I don't want to install iTunes
21:04:17 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -n.
21:04:25 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*elliott@unaffiliated/elliott.
21:04:25 -!- oerjan has kicked elliott elliott.
21:04:25 <oklopol> to throw through thorough money
21:05:39 <olsner> here yet not here, it's magic
21:06:16 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +n.
21:07:17 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -n.
21:07:50 <oerjan> i hope MLOCK didn't contain anything other than +n originally, my attempt to check just cleared it
21:08:14 <fizzie> oerjan: It did not recently contain anything else.
21:08:47 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +n.
21:08:50 <fizzie> <fizzie> There was a +nc-mst mode lock before; there have also been mode locks +sc, +n-s, -nt, +ntc-slk and +n.
21:09:07 <fizzie> (I'm not sure what was up with +sc.)
21:09:34 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*elliott@unaffiliated/elliott.
21:09:44 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
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21:11:30 <fizzie> Reason: 400 load at 31.22, try later
21:11:31 <fizzie> Maybe switching to eternal-september wasn't such a great idea after all.
21:13:36 <fizzie> I switched from my ISP's Usenet server to eternal-september, since the former had been kind of flaky, with messages missing.
21:14:02 <fizzie> Now I got the above when trying to read news.
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21:23:58 * oerjan laughs at today's darths & droids
21:24:17 <oerjan> (it might require some context)
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21:35:37 <fizzie> Reason: 400 load at 36.52, try later
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22:17:17 <nooodl> hey, what's the most well-known stack-based turing tarpit
22:18:03 <atriq> Underload, or maybe False?
22:18:37 <nooodl> ooh underload looks like it's what i need
22:19:00 <atriq> What're you doing?
22:19:53 <nooodl> well, "need" is a strong word, but it's just, i was wondering how you would prove a simple stack-based language to be TC
22:20:05 <Arc_Koen> why didn't you mention that before!
22:20:11 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: that's one interpretation of it
22:20:43 <oerjan> did i make that alternative interpretation section i was thinking of...
22:21:17 <oerjan> um http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Rewriting_semantics
22:23:32 <oerjan> nooodl: the minimization section is all about how little of it you need to be TC
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22:26:20 <nooodl> oerjan: interesting. thanks
22:26:51 <elliott> note: there are easier ways to prove underload TC
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22:27:26 <oerjan> indeed. it gets harder with fewer building blocks. and the ! removals are esoteric in themselves.
22:27:40 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:29:42 <oerjan> the unlambda (well, really ski + a little extra) to underload conversion is the first proof, it is relatively simple and uses all commands.
22:34:10 <Sgeo__> Phantom_Hoover, did you see the latest update?
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22:45:22 <Arc_Koen> the author hardly remained anonymous though
22:45:23 <Arc_Koen> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Gabrielkfl
22:50:28 <lambdabot> Quote somebody, a random person, or save a memorable quote
22:51:11 <oerjan> @remember ndmitchell I don't understand the semantics of Hoogle either, and I wrote it!
22:51:29 <Arc_Koen> hey shouldn't Truth-machine be in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Examples?
22:53:11 <oerjan> perhaps Deadfish too...
22:58:12 <Arc_Koen> hmm hey if I add, say, a "duplicate a block then deblock the copy" instruction to Ftack
23:00:58 <oerjan> well at the very least i think you'd get a larger class of infinite loops
23:05:43 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Gateship. It's a ship. It goes through the gate!).
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23:14:18 <nooga> elliott: have you seen my brogue streamer screenshot?
23:18:13 <nooga> it's broken, but I'm working on it
23:18:40 <nooga> pretty efficient also, changes to Brogue's platform code were minimal
23:21:39 <nooga> it can handle full color and animation
23:21:54 <elliott> I presume it just streams the faketerm
23:22:16 <nooga> but there's no realtime "omniscience" mode & inventory view
23:23:16 <nooga> I changed Brogue's platform code to accumulate screen updates in a buffer and send them via TCP socket when game commits the changes to the screen
23:23:34 <elliott> well, letting spectators use omniscience would be bad
23:23:55 <nooga> and then there is a simple server that broadcasts this stuff to websocket clients
23:24:06 <nooga> an I use rot.js for rendering
23:25:06 <elliott> it would be nice if there was an in-game spectating mode too, though I don't know how hard that would be
23:25:46 <nooga> not very hard, I got some ideas from Joshua Day
23:26:47 <nooga> I guess this web client is an excercise in futility
23:27:13 <elliott> if you can do spectating then you can also do server-based play
23:27:35 <nooga> I thought about that
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00:39:31 <HackEgo> Rawlie: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:54:07 -!- zzo38 has joined.
01:01:35 <oerjan> also, lambdabot isn't here.
01:01:59 <shachaf> oerjan: Also, karma is meaningless.
01:02:02 <elliott> `addquote <oerjan> `welcome Rawlie * zzo38 (~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca) has joined #esoteric <Rawlie> thank you <zzo38> You're welcome.
01:02:06 <HackEgo> 856) <oerjan> `welcome Rawlie * zzo38 (~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca) has joined #esoteric <Rawlie> thank you <zzo38> You're welcome.
01:02:58 <FireFly> The hostname could've been stripped from the quote
01:03:33 <oerjan> but you _must_ use sed to do it. strict policy.
01:03:37 <HackEgo> *poof* <oerjan> `welcome Rawlie * zzo38 (~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca) has joined #esoteric <Rawlie> thank you <zzo38> You're welcome.
01:03:54 <zzo38> Or replace with a different domain name if you want "zzo38computer.org" since that point to my computere even in case of DHCP change or ISP changed.
01:03:55 * oerjan swats FireFly for not using sed -----###
01:04:06 <FireFly> `addquote <oerjan> `welcome Rawlie * zzo38 has joined #esoteric <Rawlie> thank you <zzo38> You're welcome.
01:04:10 <HackEgo> 856) <oerjan> `welcome Rawlie * zzo38 has joined #esoteric <Rawlie> thank you <zzo38> You're welcome.
01:04:12 <zzo38> But, you might want to leave it as it is instead, in case you want to know it is Eastlink for now
01:04:27 <FireFly> oerjan: I don't know how to HackEgo :(
01:04:35 <oerjan> zzo38: i think FireFly was concerned about your privacy, more like
01:04:50 <FireFly> Well, mostly about the unnecessary clutter
01:05:07 <oerjan> FireFly: PAINFULLY, hth
01:05:12 <zzo38> I don't care about the privacy in this case; it is on the logs anyway and is public. Some things are private but this isn't one of them.
01:05:40 <oerjan> elliott: an ancient pre-web concept
01:06:08 <shachaf> <HTML><a href="gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net/">Please use the gopher service.</a>
01:06:56 <oerjan> so basically private = gopher
01:07:03 <zzo38> No, that is public too
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01:07:37 <zzo38> O, yes, I need to fix it.
01:08:08 <FireFly> You could also close that HTML element
01:08:34 <zzo38> OK, I did that too, now.
01:10:20 <Sgeo__> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GopherVR
01:11:21 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Char' with `f0 GHC.Types.Char'
01:11:23 <Bike> Sgeo__: reminds me of goons "archaelogy"-ing old online VR systems.
01:11:25 <shachaf> > over (upon (!!2)) succ "zzo38"
01:11:50 <lambdabot> Setting s t a b -> (a -> b) -> s -> t
01:11:52 <lambdabot> (Data.Data.Data s, Typeable a, Applicative f, Indexed Int k) => (s -> a) -> k (a -> f a) (s -> f s)
01:11:56 <elliott> > Left "abc" & uponTheDeep (last . fromRight) .~ 'x'
01:12:08 <elliott> > Left "abc" & uponTheDeep (\(Right xs) -> last xs) .~ 'x'
01:12:12 <elliott> > Right "abc" & uponTheDeep (\(Right xs) -> last xs) .~ 'x'
01:12:27 <FireFly> Yeah, the type signature says "stab". Must be lenses
01:13:15 <Sgeo__> Now I really want to do lensey stuff in Clojure
01:13:26 <Sgeo__> Not that I understand it, but it seems cool.
01:13:29 <Bike> do you know what it is?
01:13:43 <elliott> good luck doing what lens does without a type system
01:14:01 <Sgeo__> Looks like sort of modifying a portion of a thing based on a function specifying where
01:14:16 <zzo38> I know about GopherVR, which can be used if you want a 3D render of the gopher menus. I just prefer the plain menus, and may be programmed differently for different device and virtual machine and whatever, whichever fit best for that specific computer.
01:14:34 <elliott> (upon/uponTheDeep are awful hacks and should not be used)
01:14:37 <zzo38> How can brainfuck have monad transformer but not monads?
01:14:46 <Bike> an important question
01:14:53 <elliott> > Right "abc" & _right._last .~ 'x'
01:14:54 <zzo38> If you have a category, you will have at least identity monad.
01:14:55 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
01:15:03 <elliott> > Right "abc" & _right._last ?~ 'x'
01:15:05 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Data.Maybe.Maybe b0'
01:15:11 <lambdabot> Setting s t a (Maybe b) -> b -> s -> t
01:15:18 <lambdabot> (Functor (k (Last a -> f (Last b))), Applicative f, Isomorphic k) => k (Last a -> f (Last b)) (Either c (Maybe a) -> f (Either c (Maybe b)))
01:15:39 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Isomorphic k) => k (Last a -> f (Last b)) (Maybe a -> f (Maybe b))
01:15:45 <shachaf> > Right "abc" & _right.upon _last ?~ 'x'
01:15:47 <zzo38> For categories with final objects, you will also have Finalize monad. And then, there are various other possible monads depending on the category.
01:15:47 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
01:15:47 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, Indexed Int k) => k (a -> f a) ([a] -> f [a])
01:15:48 <shachaf> > Right "abc" & _right.upon last ?~ 'x'
01:15:50 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Data.Maybe.Maybe b0'
01:15:56 <elliott> > Right "abc" & _right . Data.List.Lens._last ?~ 'x'
01:15:58 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `Data.List.Lens._last'
01:16:12 <elliott> Rawlie: stand up and walk away from your keyboard
01:16:24 <shachaf> > Right "abc" & _right.upon last .~ 'x'
01:16:41 <shachaf> elliott: Name conflicts are terrible. :-(
01:16:45 <zzo38> Rawlie: Use the AWAY command in IRC if you need to make a AWAY message for when someone will check.
01:17:12 <Rawlie> and what's double clicking?
01:17:50 <elliott> what does that question mean...
01:18:06 <zzo38> O no, wait, it is purple.
01:18:37 <monqy> HOW TO GO AFK: set your name to RAWLIE|AFK with /NICK RAWLIE|AFK and stay at your keyboard you do not want to leave it
01:18:47 <zzo38> I don't know how to enter the AWAY command with that, but probably there is the menu something.
01:18:49 <kmc> a bold claim
01:19:04 <kmc> Rawlie: eat your keyboard it is the only way
01:19:30 <zzo38> There is also sometimes use a client AWAY command too, but is rarely used; I think the syntax is the same as the IRC AWAY command but does not require a colon.
01:19:42 <elliott> afk: always fucking keyboards
01:19:54 <elliott> afk: ampersands = feudal knights
01:20:06 <elliott> afk: altruistic father ksomething
01:20:13 <elliott> why aren't there more k words?????????
01:20:30 <zzo38> <CTCP>AWAY I think client AWAY command is like this?<CTCP>
01:21:07 <oerjan> Rawlie: i rarely bother to do anything special when leaving the keyboard unless i was just talking to someone
01:21:13 <kmc> "alas: fucked karl"
01:21:17 <shachaf> <CTCP>CTCP help stop ctcping me<CTCP>
01:21:35 <kmc> <CTCP>CCCP<CTCP>
01:21:42 <Rawlie> hang on my room is on fire
01:21:52 <zzo38> Then please go away
01:22:03 <elliott> shachaf: how about remove _first and _last
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01:22:31 <shachaf> elliott: edwardk likes the conflict
01:22:40 <shachaf> Also take up it in #haskell-lens
01:22:41 <Sgeo__> Is Rawlie mimicking bash or is there actually a scenario?
01:22:49 <shachaf> elliott: "btw we could've used you in there a few minutes ago"
01:22:56 <elliott> what were you doing a few minutes ago
01:23:17 <shachaf> Getting lambdabot in the channel.
01:23:22 <shachaf> I had to do it "illegitimately".
01:23:32 <kmc> shachaf: <!DOCTYPE gopher>
01:23:46 <kmc> presumably one of those CTCPs set their computer on fire
01:23:54 <shachaf> kmc: What do you think of upon?
01:24:03 <shachaf> > set (upon (!!4)) 'q' "hello there"
01:24:09 <Rawlie> lol my poster got burnt
01:24:12 <kmc> what is it
01:24:18 <shachaf> It turns a getter into a setter.
01:24:40 <Sgeo__> Rawlie, just to confirm, there is presently no fire, correct?
01:24:46 <shachaf> @let setUponTheDeep = set . uponTheDeep
01:24:49 <Sgeo__> .......shachar what how
01:24:58 <Rawlie> my room wasn't on fire was just some paper
01:25:23 <Rawlie> just needed an excuse to try out the afk
01:25:31 <shachaf> > let mylast [x] = x; myLast (x:xs) = myLast xs in setUpon myLast 'q' "hello there"
01:25:44 <oerjan> > set (upon fst) "test" (1,2)
01:25:46 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [GHC.Types.Char])
01:25:51 <oerjan> > set (upon fst) "test" ("ok",2)
01:26:41 <oerjan> > set (upon last) 'a' "bcde"
01:26:53 <shachaf> > let myLast [x] = x; myLast (x:xs) = myLast xs in setUpon myLast 'q' "hello there"
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01:26:55 <lambdabot> Source not found. My pet ferret can type better than you!
01:26:57 <monqy> is it still gross and an ugly hack
01:27:13 <Sgeo__> Is it theoretically possible for it not to be an ugly hack?
01:27:14 <oerjan> > set (upon tail) "oobs" "bcde"
01:27:14 <shachaf> monqy: No, the hack fairy came along and cleaned it up.
01:27:39 <shachaf> oerjan: Unfortuantely upon (tail.tail) doesn't work.
01:27:44 <shachaf> You need uponTheDeep for that.
01:27:48 <shachaf> kmc: Did you read that book?
01:29:46 <oerjan> > set (upon (tail.tail)) "obs" "bollocks!"
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01:30:33 <shachaf> > set (uponTheDeep (tail.tail)) "obs" "bollocks!"
01:31:26 <lambdabot> (Data.Data.Data s, Typeable a, Applicative f, Indexed Int k) => (s -> a) -> k (a -> f a) (s -> f s)
01:31:32 <lambdabot> (Data.Data.Data a, Data.Data.Data s, Applicative f, Indexed [Int] k) => (s -> a) -> k (a -> f a) (s -> f s)
01:33:02 <oerjan> > set (upon (fst.snd)) 1 ((3,2),1)
01:33:30 <oerjan> > set (upon (fst.snd)) 1 (1,(2,3))
01:33:48 <elliott> dont try to understand it oerjan. it will kill you
01:34:25 <elliott> oerjan: (but you won't really be able to break uponTheDeep)
01:35:12 <elliott> > Node [1,2,3] [Node [4,7] [], Node [8,6,1] [Node [4,2] []]] ^. acts
01:35:13 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `Data.Functor.Identity.Identity'
01:35:20 <elliott> > Node [1,2,3] [Node [4,7] [], Node [8,6,1] [Node [4,2] []]] ^! acts
01:35:21 <lambdabot> Node {rootLabel = [1,2,3], subForest = [Node {rootLabel = [4,7], subForest ...
01:35:36 <elliott> > Node [1,2,3] [Node [4,7] [], Node [8,6,1] [Node [4,2] []]] ^! traverse.acts
01:35:38 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `t0' in the constraints:
01:35:44 <elliott> :t Node [1,2,3] [Node [4,7] [], Node [8,6,1] [Node [4,2] []]] ^. traverse
01:35:53 <elliott> :t Node [1,2,3] [Node [4,7] [], Node [8,6,1] [Node [4,2] []]] ^. traverse.acts
01:35:54 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `Identity' with `[]'
01:35:54 <lambdabot> When using functional dependencies to combine
01:35:54 <lambdabot> Control.Lens.Classes.Effective Identity r (Accessor r),
01:35:57 <elliott> :t Node [1,2,3] [Node [4,7] [], Node [8,6,1] [Node [4,2] []]] ^! traverse.acts
01:36:17 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, Traversable t, Control.Lens.Classes.Effective m r f) => (a -> f a) -> t (m a) -> f (t (m a))
01:37:12 <elliott> :t Node [1,2,3] [Node [4,7] [], Node [8,6,1] [Node [4,2] []]] ^! acts
01:37:18 <elliott> :t Node [1,2,3] [Node [4,7] [], Node [8,6,1] [Node [4,2] []]]
01:37:41 <lambdabot> (Applicative g, Foldable f, Gettable g) => (s -> f a) -> LensLike g s t a b
01:37:45 <elliott> :t Node [1,2,3] [Node [4,7] [], Node [8,6,1] [Node [4,2] []]] ^. folding acts
01:37:47 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Tree [t0]'
01:37:50 <lambdabot> (Applicative f1, Foldable f, Gettable f1) => (a -> f1 a) -> f a -> f1 (f a)
01:37:54 <elliott> :t Node [1,2,3] [Node [4,7] [], Node [8,6,1] [Node [4,2] []]] ^. folded acts
01:37:56 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Accessor a0 t0'
01:37:56 <lambdabot> with actual type `a0 -> Accessor a0 b0'
01:37:56 <lambdabot> Expected type: Getting a0 (Tree [t1]) t0 a0 b0
01:37:59 <elliott> :t Node [1,2,3] [Node [4,7] [], Node [8,6,1] [Node [4,2] []]] ^! folded acts
01:38:00 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Control.Lens.Internal.Effect
01:38:00 <lambdabot> with actual type `a0 -> Control.Lens.Internal.Effect m0 a0 b0'
01:38:02 <elliott> :t Node [1,2,3] [Node [4,7] [], Node [8,6,1] [Node [4,2] []]] ^! folding acts
01:38:04 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Tree [t0]'
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02:19:23 <Sgeo__> I think maybe I shouldn't allow trolls to melt my brain
02:19:45 <Sgeo__> "Facebook is basically a skin on top of the G+ API." http://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/13rxbo/facebook_hq_posters_urge_employees_to_ditch/c76qchb
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02:23:11 <kmc> that's not a very good troll
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02:23:58 <shachaf> kmc: Are you talking about the Reddit post, or Sgeo__ pasting Reddit troll posts into IRC?
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02:39:58 <kmc> sigh ttants: ßβ
02:40:10 <kmc> the reddit post is not a very good troll, i meant
02:40:15 <kmc> elliott: gettin' peered bro
02:40:18 <kmc> might want to look into that
02:41:32 <elliott> my internet connection is bad
02:41:49 <kmc> mosh to irssi in ec2 micro instance
02:41:54 <kmc> "the way to go"
02:42:40 <kmc> woah if you Ctrl+F ß in Chromium, it finds 'ss' too
02:43:12 <Bike> holy shit, it does.
02:43:16 <elliott> if you were to implement a perfect irc client for me
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02:43:59 <shachaf> ln -s /usr/bin/less ~/bin/leß
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02:44:32 <elliott> <elliott> if you were to implement a perfect irc client for me
02:44:54 <shachaf> elliott: That's what he's doing!
02:45:00 <shachaf> "btw a perfect irc client is web based"
02:45:05 <shachaf> "and also doesn't use irc"
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03:41:06 <Sgeo__> elliott, monqy Fiora dingdingdingdingdingdingdinganupdatephone
04:00:42 <HackEgo> 525) <CakeProphet> monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...around half an hour later...] <CakeProphet> @messages <lambdabot> quicksilver said 1y 2m 18d 19h 54m 29s ago: you use @tell
04:01:12 <ais523> OK, I changed my mind, /that/ is the best quote in the qdb
04:06:43 <kmc> http://www.cs.princeton.edu/picasso/mats/HotspotOverview.pdf has some pretty badass internal details of the hotspot VM
04:08:14 <kmc> it has a pretty clever solution to the problem of signaling to threads that they should stop at a safe point, to garbage collect or whatever
04:08:40 <kmc> each thread tries to read a particular memory address periodically (discarding the result) and to make them stop, you just unmap that page
04:09:59 <kmc> so the instruction that you have to sprinkle all throughout your code is simpler than a read + conditional jump, and doesn't clobber a register
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04:15:22 <kmc> on x86 it uses 'test'
04:15:33 <kmc> on SPARC it loads %g0, the "always reads zero" register
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06:09:51 <Fiora> kmc: that's pretty devious, though I guess it sounds like it helps more on non-x86
06:10:17 <Bike> why? i thought the x86 was register-poor, wouldn't it help a ton to not have to clobber one?
06:10:42 <Fiora> doesn't require a register, I think?
06:10:52 <Fiora> and I think untaken jumps are usually free
06:12:04 <shachaf> That doesn't help with the conditional jump.
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06:12:28 <Fiora> ... I guess it's okay if the jump is almost never taken but yeah I guess it'd be pretty bad if it's unpredictable
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06:26:12 <ion> kmc: Heh, interesting.
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06:32:09 <kmc> it should get predicted correctly but it's still work for the branch predictor
06:32:59 <kmc> anyway i think more compact code is part of the point of it
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06:54:33 <elliott> kmc: hey you know how I keep disconnecting
06:54:44 <elliott> kmc: if I use mosh it will be able to keep my session across those shitty things right
07:00:47 <elliott> time to install an irssi client on my server
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07:01:28 <elliott> its channel-switching interface makes me sad
07:01:48 <Fiora> I think you can use quassel if you don't like irssi?
07:01:59 <Fiora> though it uses its own protocol I think, so like you don't need ssh/mosh
07:02:11 <Fiora> I'm not sure, I've just heard it suggested as an alternative
07:02:17 <Fiora> haven't used it though
07:02:21 <elliott> client-server clients are nice but iirc i tried quassel once and its client UI was awful
07:02:50 * Fiora uses irssi personally
07:03:12 <elliott> my problems with irssi are twofold:
07:03:34 <elliott> i can never get alt+n to work in my terminal so i have to switch with "/w n" (verbose) or "<ESC>n" (awkward)
07:03:44 <elliott> I hate memorising which number a channel/query is on
07:03:45 <shachaf> Alt+n has always worked for me.
07:03:48 <shachaf> If you don't like it, you can Esc+n
07:04:00 <shachaf> I mean if it doesn't work.
07:04:07 <Bike> you can't get alt numbers working with your terminal, what?
07:04:07 <shachaf> Also you can use the channel name to switch.
07:04:24 <elliott> Bike: well just generall alt+foo does not send ^[foo for me
07:04:34 <Fiora> I've never had problems with alt-n @_@
07:04:36 <elliott> probably it is some Xresource I need to tweak
07:04:52 <Bike> how mysterious.
07:04:57 <shachaf> I used urxvt with irssi for years.
07:05:09 <Fiora> is this like, the problem where the window manager captures alt-N? I remember once having issue with it using the alt keys to select which terminal tab to use instead of sending it
07:05:27 <Fiora> I think I solved it by not using tabs
07:05:30 <elliott> i think it is just irssi not interpreting alt as meta
07:05:31 <Fiora> which isn't really a solution but
07:05:35 <elliott> maybe it spontaneously fixed itself sometime since let me test
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07:05:59 <dajfsa> alt+<number> inputs <number?
07:06:17 <dajfsa> oh right I forgot I also hate irssi's default colour scheme
07:06:28 <dajfsa> and the fact that you can't copy text from irssi without it getting horribly mangled, whitespace-wise
07:08:13 <dajfsa> maybe there is some secret way to copy text reasonably
07:08:15 <dajfsa> that everybody is hiding from me
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07:12:17 <fizzie> I tried both Quassel and WeeChat and neither really "did it", but I've heard both suggested.
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07:13:28 <fizzie> (Also, I <esc>n even though alt-n tends to work most of the time.)
07:14:18 <fizzie> For some reason I do use alt-a though, as opposed to <esc>a. (Except on the phone, which doesn't have an alt.)
07:15:01 <monqy> i use urxvt and alt-n and alt-a work for me all the time.....................
07:15:40 <elliott> can i have both of yrrr Xresources/Xdefaults files
07:15:53 <fizzie> Sure, but there's nothing interesting in it.
07:16:02 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/XOQC
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07:16:54 <fizzie> (Incidentally, talking about alt-a, I really hate active_window_ignore_refnum; fortunately it can be turned off.)
07:17:12 <elliott> what is active_window_ignore_refnum
07:17:48 <fizzie> It's a toggle for the thing they did for alt-a, to make it switch to the last-activated window within those that have the highest activity level.
07:17:55 <elliott> also is your colour scheme nice, maybe I should steal it
07:18:30 <fizzie> The old behaviour was to switch to the lowest-numbered such window, which I liked, since it was immediately obvious (from the activity list) which window it was going to switch to.
07:19:22 <monqy> my colorscheme is just it gets rid of all the backgrounds (they're black), and the foregrounds become purple
07:19:43 <monqy> oh and i do some stuff with the timestamp
07:19:56 <fizzie> Did you mean irssi or urxvt colors?
07:20:01 <fizzie> The latter are just the CGA colors.
07:20:18 <fizzie> (At home I have a bit brighter blues, but it seems I haven't updated this work box.)
07:20:42 <elliott> i am talking about rxvt colours
07:21:03 <monqy> i use whatever the defaults are
07:21:04 <fizzie> I may have copied it from him too.
07:21:09 <monqy> apparently it makes my blues dark
07:21:12 <monqy> but im fine with that
07:22:03 <fizzie> I seem to have #2222cc for dark blue and #6666ff for bright blue. I think I just added some numbers to my old blue.
07:22:29 <fizzie> I don't think I am terribly attached to the CGA palette, it was just so... regular.
07:22:42 <fizzie> It's all 0s, 5s, as or fs.
07:23:18 <fizzie> (Though the brown is admittedly not quite in the PATTERN.)
07:23:42 <elliott> is there a way to get an xchat-style channel list sidebar in irssi. i realise asking for this makes me hopelessly uncool
07:25:06 <fizzie> I think I've seen scripts or plugins for that kind of stuff.
07:28:05 <fizzie> Oh my, nicklist.pl writes the nick list to a whole other terminal. That's very screwy.
07:28:26 <elliott> fizzie: i dont want that..........
07:28:39 <monqy> why do you need a nick list anyway
07:28:53 <elliott> i want a channel list so i see the numbers things are on and stuff
07:28:58 <fizzie> Right, I was just looking at it since it's a sidebar too.
07:29:05 <monqy> i misread channel list as nick list...
07:29:25 <elliott> well fizzie said nicklist.pl
07:29:52 <elliott> fizzie: do you have some secret tip for copying irc text from a console irc client without it inserting lots of spaces where it wraps the lines etc.
07:29:56 <elliott> this is v. important for me esp. for quote-adding
07:30:03 <kmc> "Bud Light Platinum has 137 calories per 12 ounce serving, 8 fewer than a regular Budweiser."
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07:32:20 <elliott> <elliott> fizzie: do you have some secret tip for copying irc text from a console irc client without it inserting lots of spaces where it wraps the lines etc.
07:32:23 <elliott> <elliott> this is v. important for me esp. for quote-adding
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07:33:44 <kmc> tail the log?
07:34:08 <monqy> copy it one line at a time!!
07:34:18 <monqy> extend your terminal to fit it all on at once!!!!!
07:34:20 <fizzie> elliott: Sometimes I paste to "fmt -t -w 1000".
07:34:40 <fizzie> (And then recopy from the output.)
07:34:53 <fizzie> (Most often I just copy manually one line at a time, though.)
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07:36:22 <elliott> all these options seem... pretty bad??
07:36:39 <fizzie> The fmt trick is kind of nasty for multiple lines since the input gets mixed with the output, and "cat > tmp.txt; fmt -t -w tmp.txt" is really too much to bother with.
07:37:05 <fizzie> Tailing the log is possibly most sensible, except I don't have irssi logging anything, and the bouncer's log format is the stupidest.
07:37:25 <elliott> does irssi have log-tail functionality (tm)
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07:38:12 <Friendship> Sorry, I can't help you without paying royalties to shachafco.
07:38:48 <fizzie> You could bind a command/key to doing /exec tail logfile-of-the-channel, that'd be like so modern.
07:38:49 <Friendship> Gregor just wants to be your friend. Ship. Friendship.
07:39:24 <kmc> if you control-f for ℠ it will find 'sm' as well
07:39:34 <kmc> obviously they are doing some kind of normalization
07:39:38 <kmc> but which kind?!?
07:39:59 <elliott> fizzie: but doesn't exec give unhelpful output
07:42:21 <elliott> is there a kind of /exec that expands into the input line
07:43:06 <fizzie> There's an exec that spews on-channel, but it's kind of risky maybe?
07:43:49 <fizzie> You could write a quote-adding script that lets you grab quotes by nick-matching and regexes in the recent happenings of the current window.
07:43:51 <elliott> right, well I want to combine stuff into one line
07:43:54 <fizzie> There are bots with that kind of stuff.
07:43:57 <elliott> well I use it for things other than quote-matching...
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07:47:52 <elliott> monqy: do you really copy every line separately. that must be awful
07:48:28 <monqy> either that or i stretch my terminal
07:48:43 <monqy> most of the time i just do sloppy quoting
07:48:59 <elliott> do either of you know what i need to do to get clickable links in irssi
07:49:03 <elliott> clickable can include like modifier+click
07:49:45 <monqy> URxvt.perl-ext-common: default,matcher
07:49:45 <monqy> URxvt.urlLauncher: /usr/bin/chromium
07:49:45 <monqy> URxvt.matcher.button: 1
07:50:01 <elliott> fizzie: can you corroborate
07:51:34 <fizzie> I haven't done clickables. But that seems very reasonable.
07:51:43 <fizzie> I haven't used any of the berl extensions, in fact.
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08:03:59 <atriq> I like today's Freefall
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08:09:08 <Deewiant> elliott: To add more confusion, my urxvt stuff: http://sprunge.us/AHVP
08:09:41 <elliott> Deewiant: You don't use Deewiant blue?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
08:10:37 <Deewiant> That sprunge is from my desktop
08:10:43 <Deewiant> I figured it'd be more up-to-date
08:11:28 <Deewiant> It might be due to better visibility with redshift or something
08:12:10 <fizzie> Deewiant: You move around so fast that's an issue?!
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08:14:38 <Deewiant> (Actually http://jonls.dk/redshift/ )
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08:20:55 <elliott> is there any documentation for the urxvt perl buttons
08:23:57 <elliott> that doesn't document underlineURLs :(
08:25:15 <Deewiant> Maybe it's a red herring option that actually does nothing
08:25:23 <elliott> but I want no underlining!
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08:25:59 <elliott> but if it's a red herring then it'll be on by default
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08:26:08 <Deewiant> It's part of mark-yank-urls, it seems
08:26:17 <Deewiant> my $underlineURLs = $term->x_resource ('underlineURLs') || 'false';
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08:26:32 <dajfsa> by way of modifier: mod1
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08:27:30 <elliott> hmm, I set URxvt.underlineURLs: false but the URLs are underlined still
08:28:59 <fizzie> You can configure matcher's rendering with URxvt.matcher.rend.N but that's undocumented.
08:29:47 <Deewiant> I removed the code from mark-yank-urls and underlining seems to still happen, so I guess matcher does that nowadays.
08:30:03 <elliott> this does not make me terribly happy
08:30:11 <fizzie> It does. You can google for urxvt.matcher.rend.0 to see examples on how to configure it.
08:30:34 <fizzie> I don't know exactly what to write there for "no special formatting" though.
08:31:04 <Deewiant> Welp, I can get rid of an on_line_update in mark-yank-urls then. I guess that's positive.
08:31:48 <elliott> Deewiant: That's an inaccurate away message *and* an inaccurate VERSION.
08:32:31 <Deewiant> Inaccurate VERSIONs are a bit of security by obscurity and I think my away message is just fine.
08:32:57 <elliott> well you are not actually away! anyway I was trying to figure out the latest irssi version
08:33:04 <elliott> the same as it was in 2010
08:33:19 <Deewiant> I'm on weechat so that wouldn't've helped you anyway
08:33:30 <Deewiant> And I reserve the right to be actually away at any moment
08:33:37 <fizzie> "Irssi: the client of the future".
08:33:45 <fizzie> Last news from Dec 26th, 2010.
08:33:57 <elliott> Deewiant: IMO you should try to sell me on weechat > irssi
08:34:04 <elliott> making decisions is hard 'n stuff
08:34:34 <fizzie> I think you should use Irssi2 instead.
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08:34:43 <fizzie> http://www.irssi2.org/ <- looks impressive, eh?
08:35:31 <Deewiant> weechat just seems less ad hoc to me, it has hierarchical configuration settings and everything
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08:37:38 <elliott> Deewiant: does weechat have a nice solution to the horrendous problem of Copying Things
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08:39:24 <elliott> but what about when there is Text
08:39:34 <elliott> but lo it is Wrapped over a multitude of Lines
08:39:40 <elliott> and Copying it would produce Displeasing Whitespace
08:40:04 <Deewiant> There pretty much never is, especially with my window widths
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08:41:01 <Deewiant> When there is and I need to Copy it to some place that is particular about Displeasing Whitespace, I don't mind an intermediate Copy to a text editor
08:41:17 <coppro> elliott: Displeasing should not be capitalized
08:42:57 <atriq> I wonder if you can make that Stack type I wrote yesterday an Applicative
08:46:08 <atriq> I can write an instance, but does it fulfill the laws?
08:52:34 <atriq> I don't think it's a Monad, though
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09:19:16 <elliott> irssi users: is there a way to get something like "/msg foo bar" to not spawn a new query window
09:21:46 <elliott> as if I would read things before asking a question
09:22:25 <elliott> this does all seem like a mess
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09:24:01 <elliott> nice, another client that does not have /{cs,ns} by default :(
09:24:21 <elliott> and somehow typing into weechat is laggier than irssi... maybe I should try mosh prediction
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09:25:21 <Sgeo__> The bot I made for a Homestuck channel announced an update, but it seemed like a false alarm, then announced again, and the update was real
09:25:26 <elliott> wow. weechat has literally the ugliest highlight colours ever.
09:26:12 <Fiora> another update in one day? wow
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09:27:02 <Sgeo__> Phantom_Hoover, update
09:27:18 <elliott> ugh I would just switch back to irssi now if I could find a buffer list thing
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09:29:33 <elliott> maybe http://anti.teamidiot.de/static/nei/*/Code/Irssi/adv_windowlist.pl is what I want
09:30:07 <elliott> guys can we focus on my IRC client problems? thanks? assholes?
09:30:11 <elliott> ais523: please kick everyone
09:30:24 <fizzie> Ooh, you've found an awl.
09:30:27 <elliott> ais523: btw http://esolangs.org/wiki/Computing_crystal is somehow even more of a mess than it started out as
09:31:10 <shachaf> elliott: can we focus on my problems instead?
09:31:57 <shachaf> unsafeCoerce elliott :: Int
09:32:52 <fizzie> elliott: It seems to do the same kind of thing as nicklist.pl -- it has a fifo mode and a screen-based mode. It might even work.
09:33:23 <shachaf> elliott: zomg mconcat gives you mempty
09:33:31 <elliott> what is all this fanciness
09:33:47 <elliott> I just want a sidebar or heck even a horizontal list of all the places I am in
09:33:48 <elliott> and the number they are on
09:33:55 <shachaf> -F -p PRIO for SCHED_FIFO only as root
09:34:04 <shachaf> elliott: Don't run your IRC client as root!
09:34:30 <fizzie> elliott: The fifo mode is when you want the list thing in a whole 'nother terminal.
09:34:52 <fizzie> elliott: The screen mode is when it hackitudes it inside the same terminal, it's also a kludge.
09:35:24 <elliott> fizzie: OK but... can't it just show on the status bar or something.
09:35:25 <elliott> Come on, I'm not asking for much here.
09:36:37 <fizzie> I don't think a very long list would fit in a single line.
09:36:48 <shachaf> elliott: Is it just me or should mconcat :: Tree a -> a?
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09:37:38 <elliott> fizzie: I'm not in that many channels, man.
09:37:51 <elliott> 9 and I don't even care about most of them. Plus like five queries I care about sometimes.
09:39:27 <fizzie> Anyway, the "screen mode" might work for you, even if it is based on just talking control codes directly, since irssi doesn't provide real windows split that way.
09:41:32 <elliott> what's with screenshots like e.g. http://www.die-welt.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/irssi-awl.png where you can see a bunch of windows listed horizontally then
09:42:21 <oklofok> ooh queries ima query elliott lol :DD
09:43:06 <fizzie> That's not a sidebar. But I suppose you can have multi-line statusbars like that, that probably works.
09:44:26 <elliott> fizzie: well yes if I say "horizontal" that probably implies not a status bar...
09:46:07 <fizzie> You could go with one of them scripts. I didn't know awl did it that way, I thought it faked a sidebar since the code looked so crumminy.
09:46:46 <elliott> fizzie: I'm a bit worried by "one of them scripts". are you saying there are multiple versions of this monstrosity
09:47:04 <fizzie> There's chanact and AWL, probably others too.
09:48:07 <elliott> hmm i like how alt+a cycles back to the channel i was originally on if i press it enough
09:48:26 <elliott> this is in weechat but i presume irssi behaves the smae
09:49:02 <elliott> oh gosh this chanact thing looks complicated
09:49:14 <elliott> why cna't this be simple ???? help me fizzie
09:49:20 <fizzie> Both wlstat and AWL are I think derivatives of chanact.
09:49:59 <elliott> how do i do bold in weechat
09:50:10 <fizzie> And irssi's alt-a stops moving if there are no windows with activity.
09:50:46 <elliott> but what about when I'm done with the activity and want to see the channel I was idling on again
09:51:07 <fizzie> It just doesn't go anywhere.
09:51:28 <elliott> maybe i'll stick with weechat
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10:13:37 <elliott> Deewiant: do you happen to know what determines the ordering of bars i.e. why status comes before input (comes before buffer, in my configuration) even though they all just have position = bottom
10:37:14 <elliott> fizzie: Yes, Nintendo WiiChat
10:37:20 <elliott> todo: come up with better dumb names for weechat
10:37:58 <fizzie> Irssi has a numeric "position" in addition to bottom/top "placement".
10:38:05 <fizzie> Don't know about the other.
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10:55:19 <elliott> The Classique Cross-Channel Talk
10:55:50 <ion> ^Cble bolde
10:56:18 <ion> elliott: weechat.bar.*.priority?
10:56:22 <elliott> This is so much worse than ^B. WeeChat sucks.
10:56:26 <elliott> ion: I tried that but it didn't seem to do anything?
10:56:33 <ion> Dunno then.
10:57:48 <Deewiant> elliott: weechat.bar.status.items?
10:57:59 <elliott> Deewiant: It wasn't that but I got it working.
10:58:14 <elliott> I am still a bit suspicious of all this. irssi seems more... trustworthy, somehow.
10:58:26 <shachaf> elliott: "i tried weechat but i h8d it"
10:58:40 <Deewiant> elliott: I recommend the iset script for configuring things, by the way; makes it easy to browse
10:59:41 <elliott> Deewiant: OK, I need to figure out how to convey the horror and disgust I feel for the idea of installing a plugin to make configuring the software I'm installing the plugin for easier.
10:59:51 <elliott> I think I can never do that.
11:00:24 * Sgeo__ wonders if Urbanoids is under any particular license, or if the code is sort of available only to be looked at and not to be used
11:00:50 <Deewiant> I installed 'configuration mania' for firefox about 10 years ago so I'm used to that kind of thing.
11:01:50 <Sgeo__> setSomeProperties(1,3,6);
11:02:00 <Sgeo__> That's... very "clear" code
11:02:08 <Sgeo__> http://www.javaonthebrain.com/java/noids/noids.java
11:03:42 <fizzie> int i,j,k,l,m,n,o,p,q,di,dj,dk,dl,ai,mi,mj,counter=0,gameState=0,nextState=0,seed=1; /* yet it starts so well! */
11:04:18 <Deewiant> That reminds me of a typical robocode bot / sudoku solver
11:04:51 <fizzie> Those are all class members, even though the one-letter ones seem to be used mostly as loop indices and the like.
11:05:04 <fizzie> I suppose it's so that one doesn't have to keep declaring them over and over again.
11:05:13 <shachaf> fizzie: Did you turn into value-level edwardk?
11:06:04 <Sgeo__> I always loved JavaOnTheBrain, never figured I'd be mocking his code.
11:06:06 <fizzie> shachaf: I'll let you know that n-=16; i*=2; o=m; m+=i; so there.
11:07:08 <Sgeo__> The game is still as fun as it always has been
11:07:25 * Sgeo__ vaguely imagines making a level editor
11:09:34 <Sgeo__> I have not the faintest guess as to what droidTX droidTY droidBX and droidBY are
11:10:24 <Sgeo__> Droids have tops and bottoms?
11:11:52 <fizzie> Sgeo__: It does seem like a box for it.
11:12:15 <Sgeo__> Huh. Weird, because they're pretty much all the same size, I think
11:12:27 <Sgeo__> At least in all levels that I've seen, all droids are the same size
11:12:40 <fizzie> Sgeo__: Given that if (((l==1)&&(objY[i]<=objPar2[i]))||((l==2)&&(objY[i]>=objPar4[i]))||((l==3)&&(objX[i]<=objPar1[i]))||((l==4)&&(objX[i]>=objPar3[i]))) test -- since, you know, droidTX/TY/BX/BY are the objPar1..4 for droids.
11:12:44 <Deewiant> droidTX[i][j]=24*infile.read()+94; droidTY[i][j]=24*infile.read()+94; droidBX[i][j]=24*infile.read()+94; droidBY[i][j]=24*infile.read()+94;
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11:13:31 <Sgeo__> I have not the faintest idea what tempback is for
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11:14:24 <fizzie> A temporary buffer for a background?
11:14:48 <fizzie> It's size is related to width times height of something, at least.
11:15:22 <Deewiant> And values from it are used to calculate values of map[i][j]
11:16:17 <fizzie> That "(256+tempback[o])&255" is the best, though.
11:16:42 <Deewiant> n=((256+tempback[o])&255)+256*((256+tempback[o+1])&255); n=(n>>p)&127; map[i][j++]=n; in full.
11:17:08 <Deewiant> Or n=100+((n>>p)&31); instead of the second statement there, if i != 0.
11:17:25 <Sgeo__> I think i is the level number
11:17:36 <Sgeo__> As in, each map is divided into level
11:17:43 <Sgeo__> The surface, then sewers, etc.
11:17:45 <fizzie> It's the number of a "layer".
11:18:08 <atriq> "Zombies are one of the scary monsters that inhabit Minecraft worlds"
11:18:10 <Sgeo__> Ok, so that's what they're called
11:18:47 <fizzie> I suppose the (256+x)&255 is some kind of a superstitious thing to make negative values of x positive.
11:19:13 <Sgeo__> Going to be fun to write code to actually output this file format
11:19:33 <Sgeo__> Input is .. I could just sort of copy this code, translate it almost blindly
11:20:39 <fizzie> The code makes me smily.
11:20:49 <elliott> atriq: why is the BBC News website talking about minecraft
11:21:04 <fizzie> (Sure, it's just a label for the sound effect, but still.)
11:21:39 <atriq> elliott, who knows
11:21:55 <atriq> They also talk about gangnam style and floods affecting the north of England
11:21:57 <Deewiant> elliott: To further infringe on your sensibilities, I recommend the script for installing scripts, weeget.
11:24:48 <fizzie> Deewiant: But how do you install that script!
11:24:59 <fizzie> Is there a script specifically for installing weeget?
11:25:25 <Deewiant> I think you need to do it manually, otherwise you're just adding extra steps to the whole process.
11:26:17 <fizzie> For the record, irssi's tips page recommends /alias commands that update irssi scripts via rsync.
11:27:08 <fizzie> Either one that does a full rsync into ~/.irssi/scripts/official/ or another that just does rsync --existing into ~/.irssi/scripts/ if you don't want all of them.
11:27:14 <fizzie> It's almost like having a script-management script.
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11:28:20 <Deewiant> I reiterate my stance that weechat seems less ad hoc overall.
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11:34:24 <Sgeo__> It's storing entrance and exit positions as a single number?
11:34:24 <fizzie> I reiterate my stance that the name is stupider.
11:36:50 <fizzie> Sgeo__: I think it's just that exit from one layer is an entrance to another. It does read two pairs of coordinates for each exit; the exitPos and the exitToPos.
11:37:08 <Deewiant> Fortunately I'm happy with programs with names like "urxvt", "git", "ssh", "zip", and whatnot, so I'm not particularly bothered by names.
11:37:24 <fizzie> The entrancePos on layer layerParent[i] is the exitToPos on layer i.
11:37:33 <fizzie> Those names aren't stupid.
11:37:47 <Sgeo__> I'm saying the Pos itself is one number rather than 2
11:38:14 <fizzie> Sgeo__: Oh. Well, sure, why not?
11:38:31 <Deewiant> fizzie: "git" /means/ "stupid".
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11:38:41 <fizzie> Deewiant: But it /isn't/ stupid.
11:38:43 <elliott> "git" does not mean "stupid".
11:39:29 <Deewiant> git - the stupid content tracker
11:39:51 <Sgeo__> I'm sure there are some limitations as to what is in an allowable level so that this makes sense, but don't quite see them
11:40:52 <fizzie> I don't know what is your problem with the positions. It's just y*w+x, it's even decomposed back with newPos%mapW and newPos/mapW to go into objX and objY.
11:41:02 <Sgeo__> objX[0]=24*(newPos%mapW)-2;
11:41:02 <Sgeo__> objY[0]=24*(newPos/mapW)-2;
11:42:40 <elliott> Deewiant: That doesn't make "git" mean "stupid".
11:43:11 <fizzie> 1. rotter, dirty dog, rat, skunk, stinker, stinkpot, bum, puke, crumb, lowlife, scum bag, so-and-so, git -- (a person who is deemed to be despicable or contemptible; "only a rotter would do that"; "kill the rat"; "throw the bum out"; "you cowardly little pukes!"; "the British call a contemptible person a `git'")
11:43:12 <Deewiant> It's intended as meaning "stupid", and it's often used to mean "stupid".
11:43:17 <fizzie> Those are some nice words there.
11:43:26 <Deewiant> I cite the infallible wiktionary!
11:43:33 <Deewiant> 2. (UK, slang, pejorative) A silly, incompetent, stupid, annoying or childish person.
11:43:44 <elliott> I've never heard someone say "git" with just the connotation of "stupid" and, I mean, it's our word; sure, that is one of its connotations, but it has many others besides.
11:43:57 <elliott> Also that has a "2." in front of it and a bunch of other adjectives in the same sentence, come on.
11:44:16 <elliott> ANYWAY the solution is clearly to destroy git.
11:45:21 <fizzie> Sgeo__: Incidentally, I wouldn't go ahead and write exitPos[i][j]=infile.read()+4+(layerW[i]+8)*(infile.read()+4); even though Java does guarantee left-to-right.
11:45:47 <Deewiant> I would. Although I wouldn't write that for other reasons.
11:45:54 <fizzie> "It is recommended that code not rely crucially on this specification." (JLS)
11:46:35 <fizzie> Uh, where "this specification" refers only to the details of the evaluation order.
11:46:52 <fizzie> I don't think they disrecommend relying on the whole of the Java Language Specification.
11:46:59 <elliott> I like the more liberal interpretation.
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11:48:00 <Sgeo__> Don't entirely understand why it forces the first 40 droids to be of type 0
11:48:33 <Sgeo__> I mean, why not do just what the map says, and if the map says the first 40 are 0, that's it
11:48:42 <Sgeo__> Rather than enforcing it in code
11:49:41 <shachaf> ion: You like writing benchmarks, right?
11:50:19 <ion> Nothing gives me more pleasure.
11:51:08 <fizzie> Sgeo__: It doesn't seem to me like it would do that. It just sets the types of those to zero that weren't in the map.
11:51:42 <fizzie> Sgeo__: j's still at k (number of droips) after the drop-reading loop, after all; it's just from k .. 39 that get set to 0.
11:52:32 <fizzie> In other words, it's just initializing the leftover elements of droidType to 0. (Sure, they'd be zero anyway.)
12:03:08 <elliott> Deewiant: How do I, like, enable IRC logs?
12:03:14 <elliott> Or does "the Whee" do them by default.
12:03:25 <elliott> (I sort of skimmed the manual!!)
12:04:06 <Deewiant> elliott: http://www.weechat.org/files/doc/stable/weechat_user.en.html#logger_plugin
12:06:57 <elliott> Deewiant: I saw that but it looked complicated. :(
12:08:38 <Deewiant> In short I think it's done by default
12:08:44 <Deewiant> But you probably want to set logger.file.path and logger.file.mask
12:14:40 <Deewiant> It's the weechat directory IIRC, ~/.weechat/logs or something
12:14:56 <Deewiant> description: path for WeeChat log files; "%h" at beginning of string is replaced by WeeChat home ("~/.weechat" by default); date specifiers are permitted (see man strftime)
12:15:11 <Deewiant> (Source: what I linked to you 11 minutes ago)
12:19:00 <Deewiant> If you'd told me that it was in logger.file.path I might've just scrolled down to that.
12:20:47 <elliott> That is *definitely* cheating.
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13:35:13 <atriq> Apparently I qualified for the second round of the maths challenge
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13:36:48 <atriq> A maths competition
13:36:58 <atriq> http://www.mathcomp.leeds.ac.uk/individual-competitions/senior-kangaroo/
13:38:47 <atriq> You sound somewhat bitter
13:39:25 <shachaf> Is it like a math challenge?
13:40:00 <shachaf> What's the difference between "maths challenge" and "math challenges"?
13:40:14 <oklofok> first is a single challenge with multiple maths
13:40:17 <atriq> A maths challenge is one challenge, many maths
13:40:29 <atriq> Math challenges are many challenges, one math
13:41:15 <shachaf> What about maths challenges?
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13:42:35 <atriq> I presume you wouldn't do multiple maths challenges simultaneously
13:42:59 <Phantom_Hoover> all these and more have featured in past maths challenges
13:43:55 <elliott> maths challenge, surgeons general
13:44:55 <Deewiant> elliott: You could also have done /help logger.file.path.
13:45:54 <shachaf> elliott: What do you think of Zipper?
13:45:54 <elliott> Deewiant: Look I was born with an inability to read any text not written for me on IRC.
13:45:59 <elliott> That's just the way life is?????
13:46:19 <shachaf> elliott: You know the most annoying thing about Zipper?
13:46:31 <shachaf> Deewiant: Please be respectful of elliott's disability, Deewiant.
13:46:55 <Deewiant> elliott: Arguably if your client responds to /help foo, it's equivalent to that response being written for you on IRC.
13:47:07 <elliott> It's not a disability! It's a dis...read...ability.
13:47:07 <elliott> Deewiant: IRC clients aren't people.
13:47:22 <Deewiant> elliott: The only difference is that you need to type /help foo instead of "what is <thing in foo>".
13:47:31 <Deewiant> elliott: Maybe I'm not a person! HOW WOULD YOU KNOW.
13:47:41 <elliott> Deewiant: Well I can read what you are saying so OBVIOUSLY you are?
13:47:44 <fungot> elliott: http://youtube.com/ fnord richard dawkins " what if you're in. cvs info: https://sourceforge.net/ fnord
13:48:03 <Deewiant> You've read fungot's output in the past.
13:48:03 <fungot> Deewiant: this is exactly how lisp operating systems tended to work when i burned it on a 3ghz p4?
13:48:11 <elliott> Guys, hire me to do your Turing tests for you??
13:48:17 <elliott> Deewiant: I get Phantom_Hoover to retype them for me.
13:48:30 <shachaf> elliott: How do I Haddockument a data type?
13:48:57 <Deewiant> elliott: I can probably find an instance where he wasn't even on-channel and yet you responded to a bot within seconds.
13:50:19 <elliott> Deewiant: I have a psychic link.
13:50:33 <Deewiant> To quote you: that is cheating.
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13:54:07 <shachaf> ion: What do you say? cs u js?
13:57:02 <ion> ju(ra)ss(i)c
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14:44:54 <ais523> `pastlog make-loud-noises
14:45:34 <HackEgo> 2012-11-20.txt:03:21:28: <kmc> /usr/bin/make-loud-noises
14:46:05 <Arc_Koen> `pastlog Minks computational class proof
14:46:06 <ais523> yeah, `pastlog was my idea
14:46:14 <ais523> it's `log except it doesn't include today
14:46:22 <atriq> "Today I had penne. I prefer spaghetti, but penne is certainly my second favourite. I had a napoli sauce, which I enjoyed very much."
14:46:23 <ais523> among other things, this means that you won't get your own query repeated back to you
14:46:28 <atriq> Wait, that would be pastalog
14:46:47 <HackEgo> 2010-12-30.txt:23:54:46: <variable> elliott_, I am already a sworn Pastafarian and Googlist
14:46:57 <HackEgo> 2009-07-06.txt:16:23:51: <EgoBot> This is a test
14:47:02 <ais523> it's fun just throwing random words in it and seeing what comes out
14:47:30 <HackEgo> 2010-10-14.txt:18:05:21: <cpressey_> oerjan: i want to invent "denotational arrows". they sound like they have such lovely properties.
14:47:33 <atriq> `pastlog jarlsberg
14:47:34 <fizzie> Let's see if those get the same result.
14:47:34 <HackEgo> 2012-03-18.txt:19:11:04: <pikhq_> Not very delusional, more just bitter about how GPLv3 has put people off of GPL...
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14:47:42 <HackEgo> 2010-05-16.txt:19:10:25: <oerjan> AnMaster: well three Stamhus (shires?), really. actually one of them (Jarlsberg) still exists, the constitution only prohibits making new ones
14:48:41 <Arc_Koen> oh we have that kind of rules here, too
14:48:45 <HackEgo> 2010-11-23.txt:23:02:37: <Phantom_Hoover_> fizzie, what awesome things could I put in a giant cuboidal cavern?
14:48:46 <Arc_Koen> for instance about building houses
14:49:10 <Arc_Koen> you need the total area (house + garden) to be large enough, otherwise you're not allowed to build a house there
14:49:27 <Arc_Koen> however, if there is already a house there, then you are allowed to build extensions to it
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14:49:48 <Arc_Koen> so for instance, you're not allowed to destroy the house then build a larger one
14:49:58 <HackEgo> 2009-05-19.txt:17:51:38: <ehird> Principal Skinner: He's embiggened that role with his cromulent performance.
14:50:02 <Arc_Koen> but you're allowed to build an extension, then destroy the original part and build a larger one
14:50:10 <HackEgo> 2011-02-17.txt:19:31:18: <Gregor> quintopia: allegro changes my breadcrumbs before I even set them.
14:50:23 <HackEgo> 2009-04-29.txt:23:56:01: <ehird> you live in a faraday cage.
14:50:28 <HackEgo> 2011-01-10.txt:13:53:09: <fizzie> The forthcoming "unload far-away chunks on disk" code will probably make it easy to also provide a (runtime) mode where it just forgets faraway blocks. They're always re-sent by the server for the client, anyway.
14:50:44 <ais523> is it bad that I originally read allegro as the game creation library, rather than the BF Joust program?
14:50:44 <HackEgo> 2009-09-06.txt:11:43:04: <fizzie> They all sound a bit far-fetched to me; the only one that makes sense is this "want to get online from both the phone and the computer without messing around with internet-over-phone stuff" case.
14:51:02 <Deewiant> ais523: I also did until you mentioned it.
14:51:11 <HackEgo> 2011-03-20.txt:22:28:57: <ais523> I imagine FFSPG could be trivially tweaked to beat it
14:51:17 <HackEgo> 2012-06-03.txt:10:41:27: <fizzie> I see they've also made a FFVII themed version of Potion for that game's 10-year anniversary.
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14:51:50 <HackEgo> 2007-04-21.txt:04:40:30: <RProgrammer> I'm having trouble uncloging my tubes (it's not a truck!), I accidently clicked on the 261M file and, note to others: Firefox loads it as text
14:52:05 <atriq> `pastlog cumberpatch
14:52:20 <HackEgo> 2009-09-05.txt:18:19:03: <Deewiant> Agree or disagree: 'If [the 80386] were an unencumbered design, it would have had a 32-bit "word", but as an extension of the 8086, its "word" continued to be considered as 16 bits.'
14:52:33 <HackEgo> 2011-11-27.txt:21:32:11: <oklopol> okokokokokokokokoko
14:52:35 <atriq> `pastlog the same person?
14:52:43 <ais523> the "no output" must be atriq's
14:52:54 <HackEgo> 2011-01-04.txt:16:37:53: <elliott> Everyone with the same name is the same person!
14:52:54 <HackEgo> 2011-12-28.txt:04:57:54: <monqy> ohno
14:53:14 <HackEgo> 2011-11-06.txt:18:52:07: <Ngevd> One person showed up to my birthday party
14:53:23 <HackEgo> 2012-06-01.txt:20:07:42: <quintopia> Taneb: you're not reallydead until all lives are gone. just set back a bit. the karma cycle ofrebirth goes on.
14:53:27 <atriq> That was a fun birthday
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14:53:52 <ais523> atriq: was that person you?
14:53:58 <ais523> or was it held in your absence?
14:54:19 <HackEgo> 2010-07-14.txt:23:33:00: <nooga> prawns with mayo and cucumber <3
14:54:33 <HackEgo> 2010-06-20.txt:22:37:34: <AnMaster> ais523, wtf is courgettes?
14:54:47 <HackEgo> 2006-08-04.txt:22:02:12: <GregorR-W> These are the voyages ... of the starship zucchini.
14:54:52 <HackEgo> 2010-01-08.txt:19:11:50: * ehird installs WinHugs for the nostalgia
14:55:15 <HackEgo> 2007-06-08.txt:04:08:30: <GregorR-L> Nonary
14:55:22 <fizzie> `pastlog esoteric programming language
14:55:31 <HackEgo> 2007-05-16.txt:17:18:09: -!- lament changed the topic of #esoteric to: - the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - map: http://www.frappr.com/esolang - forum: http://esolangs.org/forum/ - EgoBot: !help - wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ or http://meme.b9.com/cdates.html?channel=esoteric - Pastebin: http://pastebin.ca/ | http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/
14:55:32 <atriq> ais523, I was there before it started, so I didn't "turn up" per se
14:55:37 <ais523> I guess this is sort-of a competition along the lines of "what's the most obscure word that you can get to come up without remembering the line in which it was said"
14:55:54 <ais523> oh wow, now /that's/ a nostalgic topic
14:56:01 <ais523> atriq: I once got into a nightclub that way by mistake
14:56:08 <ais523> I was trying to watch coverage of the Guild elections
14:56:15 <HackEgo> 2010-08-14.txt:17:45:37: <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Jamie Zawinski, Netscape programmer, XEmacs (Lucid Emacs) programmer, now nightclub owner, genius.
14:56:25 <ais523> but the room I was watching it in got gradually transformed into a nightclub while I was watching
14:56:37 <ais523> and eventually people turned up there and started partying
14:56:57 <HackEgo> 2009-08-03.txt:02:23:25: <mycroftiv> that being said - i understand that *plastic* was created because marble is hard to work with, and having something easier to shape is valuable - and ehird is talking about increasing the *plasticity* of data and how we work with it
14:57:47 <HackEgo> 2010-06-26.txt:00:43:31: <alise> The most despicable use of the netcat name is GNU's, IMO. It's an entirely different software package and they've tried to usurp the name.
14:58:36 <HackEgo> 2009-03-16.txt:19:25:14: <AnMaster> I managed the slalom one
14:59:21 <atriq> `pastlog toblerone
14:59:30 <HackEgo> 2011-03-06.txt:02:21:36: <elliott> at least, milka is also chocolate, and has none of the letters in toblerone
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15:23:00 <atriq> I have notorious luck writing dupdog interpreters
15:23:13 <atriq> The hello world program printed:
15:23:15 <atriq> ;rߺn-7638104968020361213
15:23:47 <FireFly> At least you got the first letter right
15:24:32 <Deewiant> atriq: Which hello world program?
15:25:07 <Deewiant> The one on the wiki seems to want a character set of size 257
15:25:22 <atriq> And I've done that
15:25:37 <atriq> Do you want to see the output with character set size 256?
15:26:18 <atriq> Q0\´dÄ-7638104968020361213
15:26:44 <atriq> I'm beginning to suspect -763810496802036123 is important
15:27:17 <Deewiant> 763810496802036123: 3 11 73 1699 186618821953
15:28:58 <atriq> After a small change, it outputs "Hel1394"
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15:54:09 <Arc_Koen> dupdog, is that the weird, weird, weird string-rewriting/self-modifying program?
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15:57:48 <atriq> It was originally concieved as 2 IRC bots
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16:05:25 <Arc_Koen> programming languages based on several distinct entities talking to each other
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16:27:31 <Arc_Koen> wow, there is no truth-machine in slashes, I have to do that now
16:27:55 <FreeFull> Well, slashes isn't "two entities"
16:29:18 <Arc_Koen> and now I see what they meant with "no obvious way to loop"
16:30:01 <FreeFull> But it seems to be turing-complete?
16:33:22 <Arc_Koen> my intuitive approach would be something like "if 0 just print, if 1 replace with (1 followed by (replace 1 with 1 followed by [looping]))
16:33:31 <Arc_Koen> buuuuuut that's kind of an infinite program
16:34:01 <Arc_Koen> disappointingly the 99 bottles of beer program is just a program that decompresses a compressed form of the 99 bottles of beer lyrics
16:34:36 <kmc> ε₀ bottles of beer
16:35:14 <Arc_Koen> something like 99X99Y98X98Y... preceded by "replace X with 'bottles of beer on the wall' and Y with 'bottles of beer, take one down, pass it around'"
16:35:16 <shachaf> http://www.burritophile.com/editorial_review.php?rid=5&uid=3&pid=8
16:35:26 <shachaf> "all good things must tend towards the middle" :-(
16:35:48 <FreeFull> I think compression algorithms do tend to involve string rewriting at the decompression stage
16:36:17 <shachaf> An excellent place to get a burrito, though.
16:36:25 <shachaf> kmc: If you end up near that part of Mountain View, you should go there.
16:36:58 <Arc_Koen> FreeFull: my point is there is no loop in it
16:37:19 <Arc_Koen> the main part contains every number from 99 to 0
16:37:37 <FreeFull> I'm sure if you're clever enough you could do a loop
16:37:52 <kmc> echo /Td6WFoAAATm1rRGAgAhARwAAAAQz1jM4C4JAfJdABzgfMRvOiayBchkwCoTnRZueVwweCaCOzkpl7lW+8i2w1DOJI4QcafLbiSrQqJUu+CovkOtJdZX3ZZ6JYuAeyC0zroAqZGK5Fn1rDOTcLS50dUl1hWMsr3UEhpMMS2OjjP87tLp1XrCTIweITpDTTIrL/FEvUwiRbI9ifMnEWlHTz7F1liMTi8WuQeXUIs8pGdZxLjWHqnoFDG/d9XAqWCmL8ipbLgqX0omMB0BMFyqU4xJqMgt6TrTEpmzfygGNFJcrdQimxlupT/iKsZLcZvyqWMrBxl56g6I27P80dQXtPLxEAQRpR75WiNNcVIPnyYb0Mfu2toVW6Bgtsofl+DJX8HMImBzc0L \
16:37:56 <Arc_Koen> yes, apparently Oerjan can do that
16:37:58 <kmc> S1kjyzGLD4NJNPt/ogwmhWRraw5M+bCmBMhC2G4doMd9B73ZSlLiSPXrptjwzQ1yTJgQ6W+f7WyF8rib4u6XXfhthQ2UDFvKIBHHaE7vrZy96hjdwtA/YupwFDGua/Lvjb9KHSc0DbKTtOXrj7fCZ6qAAH4DH7+gFQC7/nFsNNWDLJ9kUeQ0FcU/K7Q8r4r3fclSaVMnqCtDSZewYU3XUJRbN9aGDehXmIvju63z7RGXMoqlU+OWGDkvEfOp7CLE54+6Wm3rF9FklBRlcBsYRlk0SI1ig7DdweMlBfRF2YlEAJlPNdGLQAAAAAIr9dEHUuoWSAAGOBIpcAAA+hi31scRn+wIAAAAABFla | base64 -d | unxz
16:39:38 <FreeFull> I think what should be attempted first is a slashes program that rewrites any number to a lower number
16:41:21 <Phantom_Hoover> <Arc_Koen> programming languages based on several distinct entities talking to each other
16:41:37 <Phantom_Hoover> pretty sure this tied into a number of graph-based language ideas
16:41:55 <Phantom_Hoover> also pretty sure it was considered back when people still took the wire crossing problem seriously
16:42:13 <shachaf> kmc: Did that get cut off or something?
16:42:21 <Arc_Koen> but I probably wasn't born back then :)
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16:44:02 <kmc> sorry there's a space in the middle
16:44:13 <Arc_Koen> "but I probably hadn't heard of computer science back then"
16:44:48 <shachaf> I thought base64 just skips spaces or something?
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16:46:20 <fizzie> You need to tell it to.
16:46:28 <fizzie> -i, --ignore-garbage: when decoding, ignore non-alphabet characters
16:46:28 <shachaf> What does it do with them otherwise?
16:46:40 <shachaf> Is it just newlines it ignores by default?
16:48:39 <fizzie> Possibly it's following RFC 3548's spirit: "Implementations MUST reject the encoding if it contains characters outside the base alphabet when interpreting base encoded data, unless the specification referring to this document explicitly states otherwise. Such specifications may, as MIME does, instead state that characters outside the base encoding alphabet should simply be ignored when ...
16:48:45 <fizzie> ... interpreting data ("be liberal in what you accept")."
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17:21:55 <jfischoff> I have become interested in languages that are designed around algebraic structures
17:27:19 <Phantom_Hoover> magma as in the algebraic structure or is there also a language called magma
17:42:36 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magma_computer_algebra_system this?
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17:45:06 <jfischoff> but I'm interested in anything that makes algebraic structures first class
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17:45:31 <jfischoff> so in Haskell I can almost do that
17:45:46 <jfischoff> but I can't encode the laws I want the type classes to follow
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17:48:10 <atriq> Does this imply Gregor is Magical?
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17:59:03 <ais523> !bf_txtgen why does #pokemon have a brainfuck bot?
17:59:07 <EgoBot> 302 +++++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>-.>-.>+.>++.<<----.>----------.<+.<----.>>>.+++.<<<---.-.----.>.<++.>>.-.>---.<------.-------.<<+++++++++.>.>>.<.>.<+.<<----.>>-.<++++.+++++.--------.<+++.>>++.++++++++.>.<<----.>++++.<<-.>-----------------------------------.>>----------------------. [292]
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18:01:12 <atriq> To lure us onto the channel
18:01:24 <atriq> I seriously thought of joining #pokemon just to see the bot
18:01:45 <Gregor> Don't you hate it when that happens!
18:01:59 <Phantom_Hoover> also: half the royal family had already settled here and i never realised
18:03:43 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus20, as it turns out, was 3rd in line for the throne
18:04:51 <atriq> Has elliott started the succession fort yet?
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18:10:25 <fizzie> ais523: Is it a brainfuck-only bot, or a bot-with-brainfuck-among-other-stuff?
18:12:52 <atriq> Where is elliott anyway
18:13:16 <atriq> Did he see that witch and get turned into a duck, only to find that it's hard to use computers if you're a duck?
18:13:33 <fizzie> He saw a which and turned to a dak.
18:13:51 <fizzie> It's hard to use computers when you're a tree.
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18:25:11 <NihilistDandy> Is my master craftsman still turning food into statues or whatever?
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18:27:41 <fizzie> I think it's kinda funny that "mplayer -speed 0.5" just resamples the audio track instead of actually slowing it down or speeding it up. Everyone has so manly voices now.
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18:34:48 <atriq> This has the makings of a really successful fortress
18:35:31 <atriq> Magnetite and chalk
18:35:36 <ion> fizzie: af-pre=scaletempo
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19:43:53 <olsner> atriq: chalk doesn't sound like a very sturdy material to build a fortress out of
19:44:08 <atriq> And I'm pretty sure magnetite is a pokemon
19:44:49 <olsner> could also be a sailor moon villain
19:44:56 <Arc_Koen> well, I think Foretress is the french name for a pokemon
19:45:02 <Deewiant> It's a pokémon and not a sailor moon villain
19:45:25 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, you can build a fortress out of soap, chalk is as realistic as it gets
19:45:55 <Arc_Koen> Deewiant: I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be the only one in this room to know 493 pokemon names
19:47:56 <fizzie> "*** THIS PROGRAM IS DEPRECATED *** This program is only provided for compatibility and will be removed in a future release. Please use avconv instead." Well, now. (That was ffmpeg.)
19:49:14 <fizzie> Also, where in Audacity is there a spectrogram tool?
19:49:33 <Fiora> select an area of sound and do analyze/plot spectrum
19:50:08 <fizzie> That's not a spectrogram.
19:51:36 <Arc_Koen> how can a program be deprecated?
19:51:59 <olsner> by printing an annoying deprecation message on startup
19:53:05 <Fiora> I don't think it has anything else for spectrums, but I'm not sure
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19:54:54 <fizzie> I'll just octave instead, but it's a shame. I think even my pirated CoolEdit from Windows 3.1 days did spectrgrams.
19:54:58 <fizzie> Oh, and Cubic Player too.
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19:57:46 <Arc_Koen> hey, how can http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Pure_BF/Implementation&action=raw be a valid haskell file? all the wiki stuff doesn't seem to be commented at all
19:58:16 <Deewiant> Because all the Haskell is after >
19:58:27 <Deewiant> http://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/literate.html
20:00:47 <olsner> hmm, every line ends with ; and it uses explicit blocks everywhere, that's not like any haskell code I've ever seen
20:01:07 <kmc> there is one person on hackage who writes code like that
20:01:17 <olsner> is that person also zzo?
20:01:19 <kmc> i think they are blind and use a screen-reader or braille tty
20:01:24 <kmc> probably not
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20:01:48 <FreeFull> Arc_Koen: It does seem to be valid haskell somehow, but I can't run it because I don't have Control.Comonad :D
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20:04:53 <fizzie> Why don't any of these query-by-humming things allow just a file upload? It's always a Flash applet with a "record this" button, and those just hang whenever I try to allow microphone access.
20:04:54 <olsner> FreeFull: you probably just need to cabal install comonads
20:05:56 <Arc_Koen> earlier I thought writing a truth-machine in Slashes would be complicated because there is no way to loop
20:06:12 <Arc_Koen> but I forgot that the substitution loops by default
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20:06:19 <Arc_Koen> soooo it's in fact as simple as the thue one
20:06:32 <Arc_Koen> ok, I write a message to that girl first, then the truth-machine
20:07:02 <olsner> iirc it's still somewhat tricky, because the interpreter eats your program you need to set up a way to duplicate the program in order to loop
20:07:17 <Vorpal> hm, is Baldur's Gate worth playing?
20:07:25 <Arc_Koen> not for a program as simple as the truth-machine
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20:08:37 <Arc_Koen> ah, wait, if the substitution's loop is used, then the program will loop forever *before* anything is printed
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20:11:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: I kind of liked it.
20:12:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: Were you thinking of the Enhanced Edition or the original?
20:14:23 <fizzie> Admittedly what I remember most vividly from it is YOU MUST GATHER YOUR PARTY BEFORE VENTURING FORTH.
20:15:15 <fizzie> Cf. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93XFxKXdbqY
20:15:46 <fizzie> I think I remember some kind of a more rap adaptation.
20:15:56 <olsner> why doesn't the empire fire on r2d2 and c3pos escape pod in the beginning? is it really that expensive to pew the pewpews?
20:16:23 <fizzie> Oh, right, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXOpjgYMISw is probably it.
20:21:11 <olsner> the star wars wiki spends lots of text explaining what rank and names the people in that conversation have, but not what they're saying except that it was parodied by family guy
20:21:17 <Arc_Koen> I was gonna ask you how the hell you were able to make a loop or something of the like in slashes
20:21:44 <Arc_Koen> but then I realized the substitution process itself was a loop
20:22:11 <oerjan> <Arc_Koen> yes, apparently Oerjan can do that
20:22:31 <Arc_Koen> though that doesn't solve it completely because you can't perform output while in the process of substituting
20:22:34 <oerjan> curiously i was thinking about 99bob the other day, and noticed there was one which didn't quite loop
20:22:52 <Arc_Koen> our spirits must be connected or something
20:23:05 <Arc_Koen> except there apparently is much jetlag on the spirit subspace
20:23:16 <oerjan> ...that explains so much.
20:23:53 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i already wrote a Truth-machine in Itflabtijtslwi, which is /// + input, btw
20:24:53 <oerjan> <Arc_Koen> ah, wait, if the substitution's loop is used, then the program will loop forever *before* anything is printed <-- yep
20:25:37 <Arc_Koen> so what do you do exactly, quine yourself?
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20:29:04 <oerjan> <olsner> why doesn't the empire fire on r2d2 and c3pos escape pod in the beginning? is it really that expensive to pew the pewpews? <-- http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0683.html hth >:)
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20:31:38 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: yes, you quine. see the explanation under http://esolangs.org/wiki/Slashes#Simpler_counter , although the truth-machine code is probably more streamlined.
20:32:23 <oerjan> basically i later got better at using less obtrusive characters
20:32:45 <fizzie> "Yes, you quine" makes "quine" sound like an insult.
20:33:18 <olsner> fizzie: quine it, you quine
20:33:50 <Arc_Koen> "The original counter loop was based on the mistaken belief that it was impossible to distinguish two copies of program code without scanning through them. But after my morning coffee http://esolangs.org/wiki/%C3%98rjan_Johansen realized that there was a simple way to distinguish them: Copy one of them again to another place."
20:34:21 <Arc_Koen> this sounds like all the "is ben parker the clone, or is it peter parker?" weird stuff from marvel
20:35:39 <oerjan> well that link shows as a blue "I" in the orginal.
20:36:58 <Arc_Koen> I thought I had solve that copypasting problem
20:37:07 <oerjan> apart from space removal, i think that the truth-machine is fairly close to as short as you get with this method.
20:37:48 <Arc_Koen> btw "I" is too short a word for a random user like me to realize it's a link
20:38:21 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: it was _meant_ to be almost invisible
20:39:33 <oerjan> i have many other edits where you have to look at page history to know it was me.
20:40:11 <oerjan> in particular, i think the overwhelming majority of the Underload page is by me now
20:44:26 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: Were you thinking of the Enhanced Edition or the original? <-- actually I was looking at gog.com
20:44:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about the second instalment?
20:45:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, but on gog it is called "Baldur's Gate: The Original Saga"
20:46:10 <NihilistDandy> Though I'm definitely getting the enhanced edition the second it comes out
20:48:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: The second one, combined with the Throne of Baal thing, is I think perhaps the better BG, yes.
20:48:38 <fizzie> I'm mhissing a h there.
20:49:08 <fizzie> Yes, it went into my "missing". How curious.
20:50:53 <fizzie> I did the whole Tutu/EasyTutu thing once, too. That's a thing which inserts BG1 into the BG2 engine, so that you can play through the whole thing using that.
20:51:06 <fizzie> Presumably the Enhanced Edition will be more... enhanced, though.
20:51:19 <NihilistDandy> Yeah, the mod and fix community around the Black Isle games is awesome.
20:51:39 <fizzie> Also, in some sense it's "out" already, since they started the pre-downloads.
20:51:50 <NihilistDandy> The first time I played BGII with some of the fixes and enhancements, it was like a new game.
20:52:12 <NihilistDandy> It probably helped that my computer was 10 years newer than the first time, as well
20:52:45 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: would you happen to know why input is done with "GG...GG"? I guess the G stands for 'get', but /// was kind of poetic with only slashes and backslashes, and adding letters into that kinda spoils it all for me
20:52:54 <NihilistDandy> I'm sort of curious about the iPad version. I used a lot of shortcut keys
20:55:17 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i think it was pure whimsy, the dialect was added by a user who hasn't been around much, but when i needed input for /// i just ran with it. it has the advantage it takes single characters, at least, which gives it better input than Thue...
20:55:56 <Arc_Koen> well thue's input/output is too much computer-oriented in my opinion
20:56:11 <Arc_Koen> I mean, thue itself is very simple and abstract
20:56:25 <oerjan> it's main problem is it makes it impossible to avoid code injection.
20:56:29 <Arc_Koen> I can imagine myself interpreting thue with little rocks with symbols painted on it
20:57:13 <Arc_Koen> the most simple way to avoid code injection I can think of it too have the input alphabet be strictly smaller than the alphabet used by the program
20:58:44 <oerjan> that would work too. another nice thing about GG is it's unlikely to happen by chance in a pure /// program, so the dialect is mostly backwards-compatible.
20:59:34 <olsner> is it possible to find a sequence of \ and / that isn't valid/can't be useful in a real program?
21:01:15 <oerjan> no, you could always manage to substitute it with something else
21:02:24 <Arc_Koen> ah well, I guess you can start a iftlabiswjee program with /|/GG/ and use for instance |...| as the input sequence
21:02:53 <oerjan> sure. as long as you don't need to print |'s that aren't from the input.
21:03:17 <oerjan> (that's a general problem with any single-character abbreviations.)
21:03:18 <olsner> Arc_Koen: *itflabtijtslwi
21:03:46 <Arc_Koen> am I supposed to remember that olsner, or are you offering to make the substitution for me everytime I talk about that language?
21:04:10 <olsner> you're supposed to remember it, obviously
21:04:31 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: btw if you manage to make a functional looping programing you may be only the third person to do so. (Nthern being the second.)
21:04:54 <Arc_Koen> and by functional I assume you mean that it would actually work
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21:05:49 <atriq> "Nthern" sounds like me
21:06:20 <oerjan> i don't think he was you. he never answered my comments, for one thing.
21:06:53 <atriq> I'm Taneb, Ngevd, atriq, askit0, 0taneb, taneb0, and once I was FlatFish
21:07:10 -!- nooodl_ has joined.
21:07:40 <atriq> "askit0" was my first online account
21:07:47 <atriq> It was originally for Runescape
21:07:57 <atriq> Although now it has use as my steam handle
21:08:49 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: well I would go with quining, but the truth-machine in muriel was actually quite simple (though the implementation's specs kinda surprised me) and your program doesn't look to be simple at all
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21:11:23 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: almost all the complexity is in the scaffolding for a general loop - the truth-machine specific parts are just four short lines
21:12:06 <Arc_Koen> well the truth-machine specific parts in the muriel truth-machine were just four short characters :)
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21:20:05 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: /// has nothing corresponding to Muriel's quotify operator |, this makes quining much harder (together with the hardness of treating two equal substrings differently)
21:21:19 <Arc_Koen> ohhhhh you can't combine them easily can you
21:21:47 <oerjan> those are usually both non-printing infinite loops
21:23:30 <olsner> "a real-world warp drive could create some fascinating possibilities for space travel" ... oh really?
21:24:59 <olsner> apparently it has recently been made a lot less impossible (in theory anyway), from mass-of-jupiter impossible to 1600 pounds impossible
21:26:19 <FreeFull> I see problems with all the hawking radiation
21:28:19 <oerjan> warp drives have hawking radiation?
21:29:46 <fizzie> They prey on things in the hyperspace.
21:30:46 <olsner> what radiation they emit, and how much of it, probably depends a lot on the implementation
21:31:10 <fizzie> You don't "implement" warp hawks, you get "eaten" by them.
21:31:24 <olsner> there would be some irony in inventing warp drives within the decade but having to spend the next hundred years inventing deflector shields
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21:33:39 <fizzie> Niven's Known Space universe had humans invent the Bussard ramjet (fusion rocket <c kind of thing) and then spend quite a long time figuring out how to make one that you can ride without dying.
21:34:39 <olsner> ooh, scifi where humans don't magically solve every problem put in front of them
21:34:47 <FreeFull> fizzie: Lasers and electric/magnetic fields
21:35:50 <fizzie> olsner: They didn't ever manage to invent the warp drive either, they just bought it from aliens.
21:37:33 <oerjan> there was a logical explanation for why humans and other similar races didn't invent warp drive... it only works far from massive bodies
21:38:24 <fizzie> oerjan: FSVO "logical". They *could* have worked out the theory, one supposes, and then gone off a bit to experiment on it.
21:38:35 <atriq> This just in: your mum holding the development of the warp drive back
21:38:38 <oerjan> my vague recollection is that if you tried it elsewhere your ship just evaporated
21:39:16 <oerjan> and the puppeteers hated it because there was a small chance of this happening in any case :P
21:39:23 <atriq> I liked Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers for taking precisely the opposite approach
21:39:54 <fizzie> oerjan: Something like that, yes. There was a plot in one book where a less than moral scientist was using a quantum black hole to get sharp gravity gradients, to rob ships.
21:39:54 <atriq> A couple of humans make a warp drive by accident by putting some cheese in a particle accelerator
21:40:16 <oerjan> i think i read the plot summary of that on wikipedia
21:43:09 <oerjan> the outsiders presumably invented warp drive (or what the actual ftl method was) because they were liquid helium creatures that lived far from any star. although they also prefered slow travel.
21:43:19 <fizzie> oerjan: Banks' Culture has "Displacers" (basically Star Trek teleporters except there's some really minor technicality why they don't count as transmission of matter) which are widely used, even though there's "an approximately one in sixty-one million chance of utter failure resulting in death for the subject."
21:44:55 <fizzie> Well, maybe not "widely used", since people generally aren't in that much of a hurry to get somewhere, but at least used when appropriate.
21:45:24 <olsner> I wonder what the risk is of dying during any span of time about the same length as it takes to be transported
21:45:25 <Phantom_Hoover> i think they work by making a magic shiny ball around you then lobbing you through the 4th dimension
21:45:56 <olsner> and you have to compare it to the slower alternative, which probably also involves some non-risk-free activity such as space travel
21:46:35 <fizzie> Oh ho, an earlier book says "about once in eighty-three million displacements".
21:47:20 <oerjan> the culture people were pretty long lived though, weren't they.
21:47:30 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, otoh the culture is crazy advanced so a shuttle for moving people from point a to point b is pretty safe
21:47:36 <fizzie> I don't think I can be bothered figuring out where those fall in-universe chronologically, but it'd be nice to know whether they were getting better or worse.
21:49:48 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Well, that's helpful.
21:51:28 <fizzie> Eighty-three million was from Player of Games; sixty-one from Look to Windward.
21:51:48 <fizzie> Could be just more statistics, later on.
21:52:16 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember calculating the odds of any one of the sleeper service's displacements going wrong in that one scene
21:52:32 <fizzie> "-- the risk of something going horribly, terminally wrong was only about one in eighty million for any single Displacement event --" Excession.
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21:54:10 <fizzie> I suppose it was that "thirty-thousand plus Displacements" mentioned in the same sentence that you calculamated?
21:57:19 <fizzie> That's curious, (1-1/80000000)^30000 in bc -l took a whole long time to calculate.
21:57:25 <fizzie> Like, several seconds long.
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21:57:49 <olsner> so about every 3000th reading, everyone dies in a transporter accident and the book ends?
21:59:03 <Phantom_Hoover> and most of the things being transported were fish and birds and the like
22:00:29 <zzo38> Did fish and birds die too? If something being transported is not living, will such things still break?
22:01:57 <Phantom_Hoover> although knowing the culture they would probably be like "ok you saved the galaxy but you could've waited like 10 seconds and saved that poor fish"
22:04:10 <zzo38> How much time do you have to save the galaxy?
22:05:08 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't really remember how it saved the galaxy though, it might've been more urgent
22:05:32 <zzo38> In that case you should save a fish too if you are sure you have enough time, probably.
22:07:04 <olsner> I would not care about the fish
22:07:23 <monqy> would the fish care ?
22:07:27 <atriq> You know, if I ever live on my own, I'm gonna end up starving to death
22:08:02 <atriq> I'd go to fridge and say, "Nah, don't feel like eating anything here"
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22:10:29 <zzo38> Well, if you like to eat a fish, then you can eat a fish instead.
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22:31:36 <zzo38> I try to find where is the DocBook source of the Csound manual? so that I can know how to write the documentation for my plugin
22:38:15 <zzo38> O, wow, 7-Zip can even open DLL files
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22:48:23 <Arc_Koen> so there's ocamllex and ocamlyacc
22:48:54 <Arc_Koen> but the standard libraries for parsing and lexing cannot work on their own
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22:49:50 <Arc_Koen> I would have expected some functions to perform pattern matching over a string (or a file) to return a buffer of tokens
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22:51:32 <Arc_Koen> I most definitely feel silly doing it on my own over and over everytime
22:52:25 <kmc> http://code.google.com/p/plv8js/wiki/PLV8
22:52:44 <kmc> write PostgreSQL stored procedures in javascript
22:53:00 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: <haskell>Parsec beckons you...</haskell>
22:53:13 <Phantom_Hoover> fort news: someone engraved an image of oerjan hugging some yaks
22:53:15 <Arc_Koen> common I'm not gonna learn Haskell
22:54:28 <Arc_Koen> no seriously I'm very surprised there's nothing more helpful in the standard library
22:54:49 <kmc> someone must have written a parser combinator library for ocaml by now
22:55:19 <Arc_Koen> now that you mention it, I think I'm two versions late
22:55:22 <oerjan> someone probably even ported parsec, or what can be ported
22:56:25 <Arc_Koen> still, I'd expect those things to be part of the standard library
22:56:46 <Arc_Koen> or maybe they thought Ocaml was about making compilers, not interpreters :)
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23:24:59 <kmc> Arc_Koen: parsers are equally needed by compilers and interpreters
23:25:41 <Arc_Koen> kmc: but ocaml doesn't seem to have parsing functions part of the runtime library
23:26:01 <Arc_Koen> well, I haven't really looked at ocamllex and ocamlyacc
23:26:01 <kmc> oh i see, you think they think compilers should be written only by extending ocaml
23:26:11 <kmc> ocammllex/yacc are code generators not libraries
23:26:14 <kmc> they are all right iirc
23:26:24 <kmc> pretty old school compared to any parsing combinator library
23:26:33 <kmc> i wrote a java compiler in ocaml for a class project and we used that
23:27:57 <kmc> lenovo's official email communications are so incompetent and poorly written that they are difficult to distinguish from phishing attempts
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23:34:27 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: do we get another tantrum out of this?
23:36:01 <oerjan> kmc: um do they contain links to strange websites? because other than that, a phisher could just copy a _real_ email, no?
23:36:33 <kmc> yeah but for some reason phishing and spam is usually poorly written
23:36:34 <oerjan> well or put in a virus, or whatever they do
23:39:14 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, i always assumed that was to avoid identification
23:42:44 <zzo38> Now you can download my Csound plugin source codes and binary and documentation (incomplete) by internet. It includes GEN routine to load DPCM sample played on Famicom.
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23:51:32 <zzo38> I also added a delta encoding command, which might be similar to what someone did before with a delta modulation VST plugin.
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00:02:28 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: I think you can make up something similar to the quote operator from muriel
00:03:12 <Arc_Koen> for instance, if you use two characters operators, you can make quotes that are not infinite loop like so:
00:04:13 <Arc_Koen> erk, the line started with / and got eaten by the irc client
00:04:39 <Arc_Koen> /OP/QuotedO.P//.//Some text that contains OP
00:05:07 <Arc_Koen> unfortunately / and \ are only one-character
00:05:55 <Arc_Koen> but maybe I can work with made-up two-char operators, with the replace-them-with-/-\ thingy part of the thing that's quined
00:09:10 <oerjan> that might work. but now you need to consider you want to replace them only in _one_ of the quined copies...
00:09:53 <Arc_Koen> now I understand what you menat
00:10:23 <Arc_Koen> actually I do not think that will be so much of a problem
00:11:08 <oerjan> perhaps, but i doubt you end up with a simpler solution.
00:11:09 <Arc_Koen> I'm not experienced with quining so every three seconds my brain resets and I need to re-understand how quining is done again
00:11:51 <Arc_Koen> (and three seconds is not a lot to write a slashes program!!)
00:13:00 <Arc_Koen> actually I'm facing ridiculous problems right now
00:13:53 <Arc_Koen> for instance "if the only difference between 0 and 1 is that 1 is 1, then I need to do something like GGAGG/1/infinite looping of printing one/A"
00:14:16 <Arc_Koen> "but to actually print 1 in the main loop, I need to have the symbol 1 part of the loop code"
00:14:35 <Arc_Koen> "so the outermost substitution will be an infinite loop"
00:14:57 <Arc_Koen> well I guess that's a stupid issue and I can solve it by replacing "A" with "_A_" and the first "1" by "_1_"
00:16:50 <oerjan> well i did neither of those, anyway.
00:17:33 <Arc_Koen> also slashes is a good example of how our categories are not very "accurate"
00:17:49 <Arc_Koen> for instance it's categorized both as "self-modifying" and "string-rewriting"
00:18:10 <Arc_Koen> but those two categories illustrate the same aspect of the language
00:18:25 <oerjan> no they don't, thue is string-rewriting but not self-modifying.
00:18:53 <oerjan> because thue does not identify the string with the running program.
00:24:12 <Arc_Koen> here's where I am so far http://sprunge.us/aVci
00:25:04 <Arc_Koen> thing is I want to quote DATA, but not what follows
00:25:25 <Arc_Koen> hmm I think the easier way to do this is to use substitutes for / and \ in DATA
00:25:55 <Arc_Koen> thing is when I'm not thinking out loud for someone to hear me
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00:27:52 <Arc_Koen> and now, I really understand what you meant
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00:29:24 <Arc_Koen> btw, most / and \ need to be escaped because they're part of the /:1:/.../ thing
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00:29:39 <Arc_Koen> but I'll do that last because it will make it unreadable
00:36:20 <kmc> Arc_Koen: rubber duck debugging!
00:36:57 <Arc_Koen> though last one of those I saw had batteries inside
00:40:29 <Arc_Koen> programming in slashes is fun though
00:40:40 <Arc_Koen> you're basically making up your own syntax
00:48:54 <kmc> how about programming in lisp then
00:49:28 <kmc> hm i should know better than to say such things
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01:27:53 <Arc_Koen> would it be ok if I added a section "Hello, World!" to the Pure_BF article, with the program being [.>] and the description "The following program would map a pair (world, tape) to a pair (new_world, tape), with "Hello, World!" outputted in that new_world, if the first 14 cells of the tape contained the characters 'H', 'e', 'l', 'l', 'o', ' ', 'W', 'o', 'r', 'l', d', '!', '\n', '\0'"?
01:28:09 <Arc_Koen> I can't decide whether that would be funny or not.
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01:45:46 <Arc_Koen> anyway, pure bf interpreter is working
01:46:10 <Arc_Koen> even though that doesn't matter cause it directly doesn't do anything
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01:56:00 <Phantom_Hoover> idea, riffing on what Arc_Koen said about languages where you have independent processors interacting:
01:56:27 <Phantom_Hoover> language where you can't program any processors, only their connections
01:57:52 <Phantom_Hoover> admittedly this covers a bunch of simple models such as boolean circuits, but i haven't heard of anything that uses fixed, complex units
01:58:07 <Bike> if you had infinite of each type of unit and you could connect arbitrarily that would be basically equivalent to thinks like puredata, wouldn't it
01:58:58 <Phantom_Hoover> there are a lot of general concepts which encompass both practical and esoteric languages
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03:17:59 <zzo38> I played Dungeons&Dragons game today. They said it was "genius" for me to put a gold coin down while invisible and while in the area between the door and the portcullis.
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03:52:23 <zzo38> So that they can open the portcullis.
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04:09:24 <quintopia> why does gold coin let the portcullis open? was there someone on the other side with a coin-operated portcullis machine?
04:09:39 <quintopia> they open it because they want the coin
04:10:53 <zzo38> Yes, they want to pick up the money
04:11:15 <zzo38> They didn't think about how it got there.
04:16:05 <Sgeo__> I'm not entirely sure why I enjoy http://www.reddit.com/r/westwoods/ but I do
04:32:46 <kmc> zzo38: that is genius
04:33:03 <kmc> and then you can murder them and get your coin back
04:33:10 <kmc> so it's win win
04:33:18 <zzo38> I don't need the coin back.
04:33:49 <zzo38> Although if I ever do end up to need to kill them, and they did not yet spend it, I will get it back.
04:36:57 <kmc> what is the purchasing power of one gold coin
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04:54:12 <kmc> i guess that's not worth a murder beef
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05:05:49 <zzo38> Even if it is, I do not need it back.
05:05:57 <zzo38> Regardless of what it is worth.
05:34:57 <zzo38> I was also playing Bland Chess against my brother today, and I managed to win, and it was pictorial checkmate too.
05:35:43 <zzo38> (He then said that it should be a double win if you manage to win with pictorial checkmate.)
05:36:02 <zzo38> Sgeo__: "Pictorial checkmate" means a position that would be checkmate in FIDE.
05:36:32 <zzo38> Although in this case it is checkmate in both Bland Chess and in FIDE chess.
05:39:16 <zzo38> In Bland Chess, the bishop is worth less than a pawn.
05:46:06 <zzo38> It is actually a game he invented many years ago, but without playing the game; he just said it once while waiting at a restaurant. The rules are that no diagonal moves are allowed (although knights still move as normal).
05:46:22 <zzo38> Here is a description: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSblandchess
05:47:41 <Sgeo__> Uh, ... yeah, was about to ask about bishop
05:47:58 <zzo38> Bishops do not move at all in this game.
05:48:07 <Sgeo__> Is there even any use to them? If you removed the bishops, how often would the game be affected
05:48:19 <Sgeo__> e.g. how often do the bishops block stuff from occuring
05:48:22 <zzo38> You would have more opportunities to castle.
05:48:52 <coppro> zzo38: what about berolina pawns in sharp chess?
05:49:07 <Sgeo__> What's wrong with sharp chess?
05:49:18 <Sgeo__> Oh, because pawns can't move forward?
05:49:50 <zzo38> Yes. Well, if it is played with berolina pawns it might work, but I still think it wouldn't work as well.
05:50:44 <coppro> every piece except the knight would be color-locked
05:51:29 <Sgeo__> What's a berolina pawn?
05:51:57 <zzo38> Non-capturing diagonal, capture orthogonal.
05:52:32 <coppro> zzo38: did you compose the problem?
05:52:56 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, although I may have made some mistakes.
05:52:58 <coppro> I do not believe that you correctly indicated which side of the board is which
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05:53:21 <coppro> the bishop could be promoted
05:53:32 <zzo38> The pawn on f7 is about to promote.
05:53:47 <coppro> in which case the position is impossible
05:54:02 <coppro> since the bishop on c8 must be the result of a promotion
05:54:10 <zzo38> You are right, it is impossible; but I don't worry about that.
05:54:11 <coppro> but that would mean that the pawns on the c-file exchanged places
05:54:22 <coppro> that is generally considered to be a flaw in a chess problem
05:54:44 <zzo38> I know that. However, I don't care.
05:55:17 <coppro> I think this game is a stalemate
05:55:39 <coppro> yes, I believe lowercase can force a stalement
05:56:06 <coppro> Uppercase must promote on his turn
05:57:53 <zzo38> The problem is probably broken; I should delete it.
05:58:11 <zzo38> Since it seems no move will help.
05:58:17 <coppro> regardless of his choice (a knight is ideal since it can deliver checkmate), 1 ... Ra8+ 2. Kxa8 Rxa6 3. Kb8 Ra8+ 4. Kxa8 1/2-1/2
05:59:29 <zzo38> Yes, although like I said nothing will help. But yes I did see that after I wrote the problem, which is why I say I should remove it.
06:00:12 <zzo38> OK, I removed it. However, for historical reasons it is still available as a HTML comment.
06:00:26 <zzo38> (If you select "edit the contents" it will be visible.)
06:03:14 <zzo38> Some of my other variants are also partially from my brother, although most are my own.
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06:10:23 <zzo38> "Chess with checkers added" is a variant where me and my brother both invented *simultaneously*.
06:11:27 <zzo38> (As it turned out I resigned that game.)
06:12:24 <shachaf> Does your brother ever come to #esoteric?
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06:18:16 <zzo38> I also made the shogi variant named after Gebstadter's book.
06:25:15 <zzo38> If you know Xiangqi, what is your opinion of my comment? http://www.chessvariants.org/index/listcomments.php?subjectid=54f10fbe70f3f580
06:29:10 <zzo38> I intend making up symmetric versions of some of the asymmetric chess variants which some people have invented.
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07:02:56 <nortti> yay: http://www.osnews.com/comments/26560
07:04:13 <nortti> my favorite linux distro is not dead
07:04:47 <fizzie> "That is not dead which can eternal lie."
07:18:01 <nortti> they still seem use linux 2.4....
07:32:38 <Sgeo__> <echo-area> I use ritz + swank. But the java process uses more and more memory. Does anyone know why?
07:32:42 <Sgeo__> <unic0rn> the memory allocation strategy of java can be described in 3 words.
07:32:42 <Sgeo__> <unic0rn> nom nom nom.
07:37:27 <fizzie> "IonMonkey is a new JIT for SpiderMonkey --" how many monkeys have they got at Mozilla Labs? Sometimes it seems every version has a new monkey.
07:39:16 <nortti> spidermonkey, jägermonkey, tracemonkey and ionsmonkey are the ones I can remember
07:41:04 <Sgeo__> Mozilla is a zoo. They also have foxes and birds
07:43:02 <nortti> don't forget giant dinosauruses
07:43:12 <nortti> at least that is what it looks like
07:44:23 <Fiora> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/firesomething/ I wish this addon was still updated
07:44:50 <Sgeo__> Mozilla Labs really needs to acquire the Blender Foundation.
07:48:49 <fizzie> Remember this easter gegg? http://256.com/gray/docs/netscape/mozilla/images.html
07:50:51 <Sgeo__> When I was a kid, my dad did not want me to use Netscape, because apparently he heard something about it being insecure
07:51:58 <fizzie> That particular one was I think only in the Unix version.
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08:13:07 <zzo38> Why does Mozilla need to acquire Blender Foundation?
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08:32:06 <Sgeo__> zzo38, Blender includes among its "primitives" a monkey's head.
08:32:43 <Sgeo__> http://feeblemind.org/blog/images/atelier-improbable/smoothing/suzanne-wire-solid-subsurf2.png
08:33:11 <zzo38> That doesn't make a lot of sense to me to include such things among its "primitives". It should be stored in a separate library, perhaps.
08:34:08 <Sgeo__> I think it's a sort of easter egg. I'm not sure.
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08:35:32 <Sgeo__> http://www.luxrender.net/forum/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=1162
08:35:40 <Sgeo__> http://www.luxrender.net/forum/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=14637
08:37:06 <Sgeo__> http://www.luxrender.net/forum/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=12132
08:55:54 <fizzie> It's not entirely useless to have a "primitive" that's somewhat complex, for the purposes of e.g. the material previewer, or for quick tests.
08:56:07 <fizzie> Blender has the monkey, OpenGL has the teapot.
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09:08:40 <zzo38> Well, I agree they should have such things, monkey, teapot, etc, but should be on a separate file (although included file).
09:12:00 <zzo38> And probably should have more than just one available, perhaps three or four different shapes which you can use.
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09:36:46 <Sgeo__> Help instead of criticising my teammates like I'm supposed to be doing I'm reading Reddit
09:37:52 <zzo38> Famicompo Mini vol.9 result is now available. Someone wrote about my file "lol @ stealth mario cover" yes they are correct, I wondered if anyone would notice.
09:38:23 <Sgeo__> Phantom_Hoover, by criticise I mean peer evaluations
09:41:21 <Phantom_Hoover> just be like 'your work is terrible you have made poor life choices'
09:43:40 <Sgeo__> I and the Project Manager of our group are the only ones actually doing work.
09:44:11 <Sgeo__> Although I can't help wonder if I'm biased in that assessment because he was a classmate in a previous semester
09:45:08 <Sgeo__> It's a website intended for use on phones, does map stuff
09:45:17 <Sgeo__> Oh, I get the joke. I am a bit slow today.
09:46:06 <Sgeo__> Sometimes I think that my thinking is a bit "glacial". Powerful, but incredibly SLOW.
09:46:30 <Sgeo__> Although I guess I don't have an objective assessment of how good/bad my thinking is
09:46:51 <Phantom_Hoover> careful now, you've veering into itidus territory here
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09:49:19 * Sgeo__ wtfs a bit at LibreOffice
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09:56:30 <Sgeo__> Going to do evaluations tomorrow at school when I have access to MS Word
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10:07:36 <HackEgo> lufu: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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10:41:28 <oklofok> "<Sgeo__> Sometimes I think that my thinking is a bit "glacial". Powerful, but incredibly SLOW." i used to think that, still do except to "powerful" part.
10:45:12 <Phantom_Hoover> oklofok you can't hide from your insecurities by constantly announcing them loudly
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10:53:01 <Sgeo__> atriq, there was an update
10:54:22 <atriq> And my phone has gone insane
10:56:09 <atriq> Looking forward to Act6 Act 5
11:18:44 <atriq> But that phone was a legendary brewer
11:32:30 <Phantom_Hoover> er, or it would be if i hadn't been an idiot and hooked the levers up wrong
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11:39:27 <atriq> The 0x10c ARG is getting creepy
11:54:24 <atriq> Themed around time and space travel, apparently
11:54:39 <atriq> Also, thanks to it and me being quick, I have an 0x10c account
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12:15:00 <FireFly> I miss all the 0x10c ARGs it seems
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13:32:24 <Arc_Koen> "But wait—if it only takes a couple seconds to pick up a penny, but it pays back 12 seconds, then you could game the system by repeatedly dropping a penny and picking it back up ..."
13:32:58 <Arc_Koen> I felt I had to share, rather than laugh on my own behind my computer
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13:40:05 <Arc_Koen> Phantom_Hoover: xkcd's what-if talking about picking up pennies
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14:55:48 <elliott> kmc: Can I use mosh as a sort of faux-dtach somehow? As in, use its ability to handle dropping connections for dropping my connection for a billion hours and then reconnecting to the same mosh-server.
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15:37:05 <kmc> i don't really know about dtach
15:37:35 <kmc> you can't launch a new mosh-client and attach it to the old mosh-server
15:38:37 <elliott> Couldn't mosh-client save its state to disk or something?
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15:43:16 <kmc> yes but there would be hell of security consequences
15:43:29 <kmc> for example you can't ever re-use a cryptographic nonce
15:43:34 <kmc> loading an old state file would be fatal
15:44:42 <kmc> anyway i leave a mosh session open from each of my machines and then attach to screen within whichever one i'm currently using
15:45:10 <kmc> i would use screen multi-attach but it doesn't handle different terminal sizes very well (nor is it clear that there even exists a solution there)
15:45:11 <elliott> kmc: What's the difference between mosh-client getting disconnected for 8 hours and then reconnecting, and mosh-client saving its state, not being run for 8 hours, and then loading that state?
15:46:03 <kmc> the difference is that it's much easier for a program to load a stale file from disk than for a program in memory to somehow jump back in time and use an old value of some variable
15:46:25 <kmc> there is a counter that you must increment on every packet sent, for the security of the block cipher mode
15:46:37 <kmc> if you use the same value more than once with the same key, you lose
15:47:01 <elliott> Oh, the problem is that you could resume it twice?
15:47:22 <kmc> or just end up with two state files somehow and pick the wrong one
15:47:36 <kmc> we could build safeguards against this, but that's more stuff that we can screw up
15:47:45 <kmc> first rule of mosh is to keep the security story very simple
15:47:47 <shachaf> kmc: I heard keithw wanted to do public key things with a dedicated moshd.
15:47:57 <kmc> yeah... i don't think he really wants to
15:48:09 <kmc> that would be a serious departure from the existing design principles, anyway
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16:22:47 <elliott> kmc: Why does mosh not do prediction by default?
16:24:40 <kmc> it does, as long as your lag exceeds a certain amount
16:25:14 <kmc> with low latency, the prediction is basically just visual glitching and isn't actually useful
16:25:36 <kmc> but you can enable that anyway with --predict=always
16:26:15 <kmc> and if you want really aggressive prediction you can use --predict=experimental
16:26:51 <atriq> elliott, did you start the fortress yet?
16:27:15 <kmc> that disables the usual heuristic where mosh will only display predictions if a prediction has been confirmed correct since the last newline or other control character
16:27:15 <elliott> kmc: My lag is just enough that typing sometimes feels a little wonky. :(
16:27:24 <elliott> (It's still really tiny though.)
16:27:26 <kmc> so --predict=experimental will e.g. predictively echo your password
16:27:44 <kmc> also will predictively echo vim commands into your document
16:28:42 <elliott> (How is that a good thing?)
16:28:51 <ion> I don’t think anyone said it’s a good thing.
16:29:32 <shachaf> It's only a bad thing if you're ashamed of your password.
16:29:44 <elliott> Since it is called "experimental".
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16:41:29 <kmc> well plenty of people asked for this feature
16:41:58 <kmc> if your connection is really laggy, waiting for that first echo confirmation is annoying
16:42:03 <kmc> it does limit the usefulness of prediction
16:42:49 <kmc> and in many use cases the echoing of stuff that you don't really want echoed is not a big deal
16:43:11 <kmc> even passwords
16:43:26 <kmc> most of the time you are not going to have someone looking over your shoulder at momentarily visible characters in your password
16:43:35 <kmc> you can always type slowly :)
16:43:52 <kmc> mobile phones tend to echo the last character of the password
16:46:45 <shachaf> If the connection is really laggy, they'll be more than momentarily visible.
16:47:23 <kmc> however maybe you only rarely type a password over mosh anyway
16:47:42 <kmc> the set of circumstances where your connection is laggy might have very small overlap with the set of circumstances where you need to type your password
16:48:06 <kmc> i mean obviously you should never type your password on a remote host, you should use kerberos delegation shit
16:50:00 <elliott> I wish passwords didn't exist.
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17:04:59 <elliott> kmc: Whoa, I must be lagging a lot, stuff is starting to predict!
17:05:40 <shachaf> elliott: Are you using irssi?
17:05:45 <shachaf> Are you playing the game yet?
17:05:59 <shachaf> (Well, not much of a game.)
17:06:01 <elliott> shachaf: I'm using WeeChat right now.
17:06:07 <elliott> I might switch to irssi because WeeChat has some annoying settings and stuff.
17:06:11 <shachaf> It'd probably work there too.
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17:14:27 <kmc> but i might want to not say
17:14:29 <kmc> for science
17:14:38 <elliott> kmc: OK but how about you say.
17:14:51 <kmc> i do hate being the jerk with a secret
17:14:58 <kmc> i will tell you in one hour if you do not guess by then
17:15:22 <elliott> Does it help if I used WeeChat yesterday, too, and hence have been using both it and mosh in combination for more than an hour already? (Uh, I assume it's related to that.)
17:15:29 <elliott> Wow, does mosh predict text scrolling or something?
17:15:43 <elliott> It's getting it all wrong when my WeeChat input line gets too long and I page back through it.
17:16:01 <kmc> yeah local scrolling doesn't work with mosh
17:16:14 <kmc> but the scrolling built into the remote program should work fine
17:16:30 <elliott> It seems to predict the cursor movement.
17:16:31 <kmc> shachaf: wait, can you even play the game in weechat?
17:16:43 <kmc> it should only predict left-right cursor movement
17:16:56 <kmc> and only if your characters have been echoed since the last control code
17:16:58 <elliott> But it predicts it wrongly, because my line scrolls when I move it.
17:17:15 <elliott> WeeChat seems to scroll left before you reach the left edge.
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17:19:58 <shachaf> kmc: Works for me in WeeChat.
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17:20:26 <elliott> does the game involve mosh
17:20:45 <shachaf> (Do you mean that the prompt is empty? It isn't once you connect to a server.)
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17:23:11 <elliott> Is the game trying to get mosh to predict that the prompt will get backspaced or something??
17:23:47 <kmc> it's pretty easy
17:23:53 <kmc> now shachaf and I backspace our prompts all the time
17:24:01 <kmc> it's the cool new move that's sweeping the nation
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17:24:18 <elliott> My server isn't laggy enough for that.
17:24:34 <shachaf> You can usually manage it if you do it right.
17:24:47 <elliott> Typing a lot of "a" and holding down backspace doesn't work.
17:24:48 <shachaf> Type several characters and then hold down backspace. Or something.
17:25:10 <elliott> I have an 18-19 ms ping to my server.
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17:27:20 <atriq> What is doing in London.
17:27:24 <atriq> Nobody lives in London
17:33:01 <elliott> kmc: I can't tell whether these random underlines in single letters in the middle of words when I switch channels are mosh's or urxvt's vault.
17:33:41 <shachaf> elliott: Try it in SSH and/or xterm.
17:56:53 <Phantom_Hoover> also i just discovered that dfhack also incorporates a bunch of bugfixes and optimisations!
17:58:17 <elliott> But I like bugs and slow things.
18:06:54 <oklopol> you you like things that are both
18:07:23 <oklopol> everything smaller than a fist which is gross is a bug
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18:21:12 <atriq> I'm going to be indirectly cosplaying Lara Croft
18:21:36 <kmc> elliott: are you using urxvt's linkification plugin?
18:22:36 <kmc> when mosh gets the new terminal state after window switching, it doesn't repaint the characters that haven't changed
18:22:53 <kmc> and rxvt doesn't notice that the link as a whole has disappeared
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18:44:14 <kmc> shachaf: no reply from the django-confirmation author re: sha1(str(os.urandom(12)) + str(email_address)).hexdigest()
18:44:48 <kmc> can't decide whether to fix it to be purely random
18:45:40 <kmc> on the one hand, having cargo cult code in a security-critical module is really worrying
18:45:46 <kmc> on the other hand it might be best to leave well enough alone
18:46:33 <kmc> i at least bumped that 12 to 20
18:58:11 <atriq> "woah" only has one h
18:58:20 <atriq> I don't care where it is, as long as there's just one
19:00:15 <atriq> See, ion understands
19:01:18 <elliott> you are upsetting me atriq :(
19:10:15 <atriq> That was the plan all along!
19:10:17 <kmc> whhhhoahhhh
19:11:27 <atriq> I have in my hands the power to DESTROY GOOGLE SEARCH RESULTS
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19:21:20 <elliott> ion: Isn't it great when people are wrong in #haskell. :(
19:26:08 <atriq> By the powers granted to me by the NATION OF AUSTRALIA
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19:30:46 <atriq> http://mashable.com/2012/11/27/google-libel-australia/
19:35:11 <oerjan> a site named mashable could only publish fake, mashed-up news, right?
19:40:41 <kmc> and buttons
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19:53:02 <olsner> "hara kiri - self immolation"
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20:02:56 <elliott> kmc: Can you fix mosh's prediction algorithm so I can stop playing the game?
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20:03:30 <elliott> It could learn from the fact that it always predicts the prompt would disappear but it never does.
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20:23:57 <oerjan> @tell Arc_Koen "Note that functions . and , actually modify their input world, rather than a copy." <-- that's evil! also not pure.
20:24:14 <elliott> kmc: maybe I will start doing "mosh solidity ssh ...'
20:24:18 <elliott> because my connection is so unreliable
20:27:49 <ion> matrix of?
20:28:49 <elliott> ion: the server that hosts esolangs.org is named after that, yes
20:29:34 <fizzie> Speaking of things like that, I have a comfortable-for-interactivity ping of 212 ms to selene, that prgmr thing.
20:29:42 <fizzie> Admittedly it's a whole 'nother continent.
20:30:01 <elliott> fizzie: You have a weird definition of "comfortable".
20:30:07 * elliott can't stand when the pings get above 20 ms.
20:30:54 <fizzie> But still. 212 ms * c is like 63556 kilometres. It's not *that* far.
20:31:09 <ion> That’s almost a round number.
20:31:21 <fizzie> ion: Yes, it must be MEANINGFUL of something.
20:31:58 <elliott> fizzie: I don't like how slow light is.
20:32:02 <oerjan> it's lufgninaem, actually.
20:32:14 <elliott> Like, c * the furthest distance you can go on the Earth = a pretty long time!!
20:32:15 <fizzie> It's 140 µs to the place where this irssi is, that's more acceptable.
20:32:22 * Fiora likes Grace Hopper's nanosecond measurement
20:32:35 <Fiora> a foot is about one light-nanosecond.
20:32:40 <ion> I like this song name. “Baby’s First Coffin”
20:32:53 <Fiora> so like each time my cpu ticks light moves a couple inches
20:32:57 <fizzie> oerjan: For some reason I parsed it as 6-swap(55,3)-6 instead of reverse(65536). Curious.
20:33:34 <oklopol> "c * the furthest distance you can go on the Earth" is a time?
20:33:36 <elliott> oerjan: do you have any opinion on the mess that is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Computing_crystal
20:33:48 <elliott> oklopol: let's go with... yes
20:34:48 <oerjan> elliott: well i fixed the plural automata thing
20:34:57 <fizzie> Discounting shortcuts, "(circumference of earth/2) / c" says 66.8 milliseconds in W|A.
20:35:17 <elliott> oerjan: well i am thinking of more fundamental messes here.
20:35:36 <elliott> fizzie: right. so your worst-case round trip is 133.6 ms
20:36:36 <fizzie> elliott: It drops to about 85 ms if you take the shortcut, but that's nothing to write home about either.
20:36:39 <oerjan> elliott: four wrong apostrophes is a fundamental mess! also is inputted an acceptable participle form?
20:37:17 <fizzie> Also, "(diameter of earth) / c" interpreted c as the root mean square charge radius of a charm quark, and output "insufficient data available".
20:37:29 <fizzie> That's really the best interpretation.
20:37:41 <oerjan> ok that's apparently allowed.
20:38:27 <elliott> fizzie: 85 ms is still an awful long time. :(
20:38:29 <Fiora> http://www.forbes.com/sites/brucedorminey/2012/04/30/neutrinos-to-give-high-frequency-traders-the-millisecond-edge/ sending data through the earth's core reminds me of this
20:40:13 <nooodl_> fizzie: "diameter of earth / speed of light"?
20:40:27 <elliott> fizzie: can you stop working on useless speech recognition and go find hyperspace
20:40:30 <fizzie> nooodl_: Sure, that works. But it interpreted "c" as speed of light when it was circumference.
20:40:57 <fizzie> Hyperspace for the pings.
20:40:57 <nooodl_> W|A works in mysterious ways
20:41:05 <fizzie> Forget about stars, we're more interested in our pings.
20:41:18 <oerjan> Fiora: i suspect there will be a lot of bandwidth contention, given you cannot aim neutrinos very well and you need to send an enormous amount to catch one
20:42:33 <Fiora> Yeah, it sounds really really hard
20:42:50 <Fiora> you'd need a crazy huge neutrino detector and a massive neutrino beam
20:43:17 <Fiora> how do you even aim neutrinos? I guess you could generate them with a linear accelerator pointed down, and pulse the electromagnets to set 0s or 1s
20:43:19 <oerjan> wait... perhaps this explains why no aliens do interstellar travel, after inventing a cyberspace they cannot stand high pings back home!
20:43:26 <Fiora> but that'd be so few neutrinos
20:43:30 <Fiora> you'd really want, like, a nuclear reactor, right?
20:43:32 <oerjan> nicely solves the fermi paradox
20:43:33 <Fiora> but you really can't aim that
20:45:02 <pikhq> oerjan: Even ping times to the moon would become unsettling.
20:45:06 <oerjan> Fiora: i assume the recent lhc experiments aimed at least somewhat toward the italian detector
20:45:08 <pikhq> And forget about Mars!
20:45:18 <Fiora> Yeah, but like, didn't they receive neutrinos for /days/ just to get a few?
20:45:48 <Bike> Fiora: possibly some interesting crypto concerns there
20:45:59 <Fiora> someone else could intercept your neutrinos?
20:46:17 <Fiora> it sounds hard, since they'd need an equally insanely huge detector
20:46:19 <oerjan> elliott: that _was_ the term scifi used before internet became widespread, wasn't it?
20:46:36 <elliott> I thought you meant hyperspace
20:47:10 <fizzie> It also turns out if you use a regular optical fiber, those have such sluggish light it's going to be like 200 ms for the full round-trip around the planet.
20:47:39 <Fiora> would optical fibers work with a vaccuum on the inside?
20:48:20 <fizzie> Fiora: I think generally you'd need to have the material with the higher refractive index on the inside. But I'm certainly no expert.
20:48:40 <Fiora> oh.... for total internal reflection...
20:48:44 <fizzie> If you got really reflective inner surface of the cladding, then, sure.
20:49:16 <oerjan> <Fiora> it sounds hard, since they'd need an equally insanely huge detector <-- yes but it could be hidden many kilometers away unless you can aim much better than now
20:49:31 <Fiora> "If the refractive index is lower on the other side of the boundary" ... hmm
20:49:58 <fizzie> Then again, single-mode fiber is... kinda weird.
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20:50:55 <Fiora> I guess you could encrypt your neutrino communications? using like public key crypto or something
20:51:13 <Fiora> or a stream cipher
20:52:14 <atriq> Could you do that thingy where you synchronize two spinny things?
20:52:14 <fizzie> Hey, if I ask W|A about "distance from X to Y", the "direct travel times" table, in addition to "aircraft" and "sound", has "light in fiber" and "light in vacuum".
20:52:22 <atriq> (Physics is NOT my strong point)
20:52:53 <fizzie> So it's only 41 ms from here to San Jose (where the prgmr box is, I think); or 82 ms for the round-trip. Why am I getting two hundred? I want my money back.
20:53:41 <oerjan> atriq: _any_ even slightly decent article about that will mention that you cannot use it to send information. many bad ones don't, however.
20:53:53 <Fiora> Yeah, you can't send information with entanglement
20:54:56 <Bike> "unfortunately" you say, "but I like casuality" say I
20:55:07 <atriq> Could you do that thingy where you completely disregard all the laws of physics?
20:55:21 <Bike> spelling is hard.
20:55:27 <oerjan> atriq: yes. yes you could.
20:55:31 <Fiora> but causality is /laaame/
20:55:39 * oerjan is channeling phineas & ferb there.
20:55:39 <fizzie> oerjan: Do that thing.
20:55:56 <Fiora> plus skaia will just fix up the timeline right
20:57:45 <atriq> Which reminds me, I need to get my Jake cosplay sorted
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20:58:10 <oerjan> atriq: oh but you _can_ use entanglement for agreeing on encryption keys, supposedly. but you need to send the actual encrypted data normally.
20:58:11 <HackEgo> Gresia96: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:58:11 <elliott> (this is not a file-sharing channel)
20:58:13 * Fiora would do either Jade or Nepeta probably
20:58:22 <elliott> (you want a different network)
20:59:17 <atriq> If you were anywhere near here (are you anywhere near here?), you could come to meets some of my friends organize
20:59:26 <oerjan> elliott: what would !list do on another network?
20:59:29 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
20:59:42 <elliott> oerjan: AIUI DCC bots use it to list files and stuff.
20:59:48 <elliott> freenode is not very into the whole warez thing.
21:00:09 <oerjan> elliott: could we put a fake one in EgoBot? :P
21:00:43 <Bike> where are my pirated brainfuck compilers
21:00:54 <oerjan> or are they supposed to answer with dcc always.
21:01:03 <atriq> brainfuck_WITH_CRACK.zip
21:01:07 <Gregor> They answer with notice.
21:01:14 <Gregor> Usually it's more like “services list”
21:01:25 <Gregor> Where those “services” are usually “gimme some filezzzzz”
21:01:25 <fizzie> They do answer to !list with privmsg sometimes.
21:01:35 <Gresia96> io sono italiana..e non ho ancora capito come si usa questo programma..
21:01:53 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Xdccpacks.gif <- that's what it looks like when it's xdcc.
21:02:10 <fizzie> I'm sure that kind of stuff is still going on somewhere, though.
21:02:21 <Bike> rizon has a lot of xdcc.
21:02:22 <elliott> Gresia96: Non ci sono file. Questo è un canale di discussione.
21:02:28 <elliott> guys am i using google translate right
21:02:52 <oerjan> elliott: looks fine to me
21:03:01 <Gresia96> sisi ho capito..però una mia amica mi hha speigato che con questo programma si possono scaricare dei film
21:03:08 <Gregor> elliott: There'sa onlya onea waya to translateo correcti.
21:03:32 * oerjan swattsa lo Gregor -----###
21:04:08 <elliott> È possibile scaricare i filmati su IRC, ma solo in alcuni canali. Non ci sono film in questo canale, o in rete "Freenode" questo canale è acceso.
21:05:07 <oerjan> elliott: hah i understood most of it without google >:)
21:05:26 <fizzie> oerjan: I think it was about documentary films of famous canals.
21:08:14 <kmc> yeah it's a fun fact that light travels much slower in fiber than in air
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21:08:22 <Fiora> atriq: I probably wouldn't go to a meetup or anything, but it's just like something I think about while donating money to hussie's shirt fund
21:08:28 <kmc> this is why some high frequency finance firms are starting to use microwave links
21:08:40 <kmc> we wanted to float a shiny blimp over new jersey and bounce lasers off of it
21:08:42 <Fiora> kmc: is there a reason you can't make faster fiber? like with lower-index materials
21:08:46 <atriq> Fiora, fair enough
21:08:50 <kmc> i don't know
21:08:56 <oerjan> hm by the "italiana" Gresia96 supposedly was a girl. in case anyone cares.
21:09:00 <kmc> the index has to be high enough to support total internal reflection
21:09:02 <elliott> kmc: Come on, fix the game. :(
21:09:05 <Fiora> I was looking around and couldn't find any reasons why... but it must be a good reason...
21:09:36 <elliott> oerjan: you mean all we had to do to improve this channel's ridiculous gender imbalance was pirate some movies?!
21:09:39 <kmc> i think there is probably a relationship between IoR and minimum bend radius
21:09:41 <kmc> but don't know
21:09:43 <Bike> maybe materials science just isn't fancy enough yet?
21:09:56 <oerjan> elliott: well that and learn italian
21:10:06 <kmc> i will ask my friend who knows optics and stuff
21:10:11 <elliott> oerjan: google translate solves all
21:10:24 <atriq> Hey, whatever happened to tiffany?
21:11:21 <fizzie> I've always wanted to use that Twibright Ronja for something, but it'd kind of need places to point it at.
21:11:38 <elliott> atriq: did she make a brainfuck derivative
21:11:56 <atriq> Is it a suspect with a tumblr?
21:12:24 <oerjan> it's a suspect with a ghostly vacuum
21:12:39 <oerjan> i don't know if he has a tumblr
21:13:06 <atriq> http://phantom-hoover.tumblr.com/
21:13:44 <atriq> (it's slightly entirely written by me)
21:14:55 * oerjan somehow hasn't visited tumblr enough to know it was a blog site
21:15:06 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: yes, but it would be painfully useless if it only generated a copy of the input and output streams
21:15:06 <lambdabot> Arc_Koen: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:16:02 <atriq> Ocaml sounds like a bunch of C++ programmers trying to "fix" haskel
21:16:02 <Arc_Koen> and also I'd have to find a way to copy a stream and I haven't
21:16:25 <Bike> i thought ocaml was older than haskell.
21:16:40 <Fiora> I'd link mine but I think it's 1% programming and 95% homestuck, magical girls, and anime
21:16:54 <atriq> That is exactly what I need to follow
21:17:13 <Arc_Koen> atriq: we shall remember that insult
21:17:14 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: taking copies of lazy lists works perfectly in haskell *cough*
21:17:19 <Fiora> science and tumblr memes probably?
21:17:39 <Bike> hm, haskell 1.0 was '90, ocaml '96. eh
21:17:53 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: yes, but that basically means you can't have anything inputted from stdin or outputted to stdout
21:18:10 <Arc_Koen> I mean, I'd need to be able to clone the whole computer for that
21:18:13 <oerjan> Bike: ocaml is based on caml, which may be older, and which was itself an ml variant...
21:18:33 <Bike> yeah, but with the c++ comment i assumed atriq meant the object stuff. somehow
21:18:44 <kmc> caml was invented primarily for writing coq
21:18:51 <kmc> they decided that sticking to Standard ML would be too limiting
21:19:23 <kmc> there's a document about the history of ocaml but i can't be arsed to find it
21:19:53 <kmc> it is Arc_Koen's national duty to do so
21:20:22 <Arc_Koen> sure, let me get my bike and I'll ask the guys at the university
21:20:25 <kmc> anyway atriq is wrong, there isn't much C++ influence in ocaml and it's certainly not an attempt to 'fix' Haskell
21:20:52 <kmc> if anything it's the other way, ocaml sticks much closer to this old school of algebraic static typed languages, haskell is crazy and experimental
21:21:03 <atriq> Just from what I've heard, OCaml seems to have the worst parts of Haskell and the worst parts of C++
21:21:06 <kmc> also nobody actually uses the OOP support in ocaml
21:21:10 <kmc> well you are wrong
21:21:13 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: haskell has lazy I/O specifically for allowing lazy lists to come from/go to ordinary streams
21:21:26 <kmc> i can name lots of the worst parts of haskell that didn't make it to ocaml ;P
21:21:31 <kmc> and of C++
21:21:36 <atriq> I'm fairly sure I'm wrong, having never learnt OCaml or C++
21:21:43 <fizzie> oerjan: Speaking of girls, does the channel have any confirmed regular ones? I was wondering about this few years back, couldn't think of any, and it's kind of strange that the gender distribution is more skewed than most things I can think of.
21:21:47 <kmc> glad you felt a need to weigh in on the issue
21:21:49 <Arc_Koen> what exactly is a lazy list btw? the type "list" in ocaml corresponds to lifo only
21:21:54 <kmc> haha "confirmed girls"
21:22:14 <kmc> being a woman on the internet is like being gay irl, people assume by default that you aren't and you have to "come out"
21:22:21 <Bike> have to be wary of those genderflipping types, donchaknow
21:22:24 <kmc> it's pretty sad
21:22:56 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: it's a list where you only evaluate as much of it as you actually use
21:23:11 <atriq> It'd be funny if the channel turned out to have roughly the same gender ratio as the world
21:23:27 <oerjan> > [1..] -- this list is infinite, but gets cut off and what's not used is never evaluated
21:23:27 <pikhq> kmc: Yeah, I suspect there's more people that are gay or bi than there are women here.
21:23:28 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28...
21:23:35 <pikhq> Which is... Weird.
21:23:36 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: oh, so it's a list that's lazy
21:23:41 <kmc> that's programming for you :(
21:23:42 <fizzie> atriq: It'd be funny if the channel turned out to be the world.
21:23:46 <kmc> in other news javascriptmvc.com
21:23:46 <elliott> There were a few more in the past.
21:23:56 <kmc> in other news javascriptmvc.com says they will fix the language on their website in the next two weeks
21:23:57 <pikhq> Indeed, I do know there's multiple gay or bi men here.
21:24:25 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: I'm not sure that'd be so funny if there were no girls in the worl
21:24:40 <Gregor> What the heck is javascrtipmvc.com, and why should I care…
21:24:42 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: But at least the gender ratio would be unskewed by definition.
21:25:28 <copumpkin> kmc: will fix it to "our users are software rockstars and ninjas of EXACTLY ONE OF TWO GENDERS AND SEXES"?
21:25:32 <kmc> just some people who advertise that their product is for "software craftsmen"
21:25:35 <kmc> copumpkin: yeah probably
21:25:37 <kmc> baby steps
21:25:44 <elliott> fizzie: anyway I don't think it is really surprising that this channel is so skewed gender-wise
21:26:01 <copumpkin> elliott: I think it's sad that it's not surprising, so there!
21:26:03 <elliott> it is a tiny obscure arcane corner of the intersection of programming and IRC, both of which have terrible gender stats to start with
21:26:14 <elliott> but that doesn't make it surprising
21:26:23 <atriq> I think it's cold and I haven't got enough clothes on
21:26:33 <kmc> Fiora: yeah she says "there is a critical angle of incidence (measured between the incoming ray and the line normal to the surface) above which total internal reflection can occur. this angle becomes larger if n_cable/n_air becomes smaller. so if the light has to be traveling nearly parallel to the cable to avoid leakage, you can't bend it much"
21:26:48 <Gregor> Software craftshumans. ANTI-ALIEN BIGOTS.
21:27:14 <kmc> yeah i'm not going to go after them for failing to include every possible group
21:27:20 <kmc> they should probably not exclude over 50% of the world population
21:27:36 <fizzie> elliott: Just being skewed isn't surprising, but I'm still somewhat surprised about the degree of it. I mean, it doesn't really seem to be, say, the average of programming and IRC.
21:27:37 <kmc> it would be better to use terms that don't refer to irrelevant personal details at all
21:27:44 <Bike> i wonder if the earth's surface is nearly parallel enough. (probably not...)
21:27:45 <kmc> but baby steps
21:28:06 <elliott> fizzie: well it is an obscure channel about an obscure part of programming
21:28:10 <elliott> so you'd expect some degree of amplification
21:28:30 <elliott> like you would expect a higher degree of nerdy timewasters in here than your average programming IRC channel also
21:29:41 <fizzie> elliott: But since it's generally agreed among the world's population that this is the objectively best place (right?), that should compensate for it.
21:29:49 <oerjan> > nubBy (((>1).).gcd) [2..] -- ye olde infinite list of primes
21:29:51 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101...
21:29:58 <elliott> fizzie: there was that best place 2004 award
21:32:38 <Fiora> kmc: ahhhh. so you could have a cable that had a better index, but it'd be even more sensitive to bending or so forth?
21:32:44 <Fiora> and they decide to make some tradeoff there?
21:32:49 <kmc> yeah i guess
21:33:30 <oerjan> just make the cable so wide the light never touches the walls. problem solved.
21:33:50 <kmc> i don't know how much it's motivated by that vs. availability of materials
21:33:54 <Bike> perhaps the universe is just a really big fiber optic cable
21:34:22 <oerjan> WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOA DUDE
21:35:15 * kmc bong hit noise
21:36:24 <Bike> maybe our entire reason for existence is letting a capitalist sell pieces of an imaginary money-producing business slightly faster
21:36:42 <elliott> maybe the meaning of life is fiber optic cables
21:36:49 <HackEgo> 509) <monqy> game where you flip a coin but it's really really big
21:36:54 <oerjan> Bike seems to be having a bad trip
21:38:17 -!- Gregor has changed nick to RocketJSquirrel.
21:38:45 <kmc> Bike: charles stross likes that idea
21:38:57 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: what if I said my implementation actually made a copy of the world AND YOU'RE BUT A COPY OF OERJAN
21:38:57 <kmc> in accelerando when humans finally make contact with aliens, the aliens just want to trade dodgy financial products
21:39:01 <Bike> is that how laundry series ends?
21:39:05 <kmc> backed by uploaded sentient beings
21:39:14 <Bike> yeah I liked that, seemed pretty realistic
21:39:16 <Bike> transhuman spam
21:39:23 <Bike> well, posthuman
21:39:37 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: WHOOOOOOOOOOOOA THAT WOULD EXPLAIN SO MUCH
21:39:40 <tswett> I feel like I'm beginning to come to terms with the fact that TINCSOAIFOLTUDTNN.
21:40:01 <oerjan> like why this world has this blue tint
21:40:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember trying to read one of charles stross' 20-minutes-into-the-future novels
21:40:18 <fizzie> There's that one piece of scifi where there's a faster-than-light (IIRC) communications band, and it behaves really strangely, but it turns out the problem is humanity hasn't bought the proper service to access it.
21:40:20 <Arc_Koen> yeah copying the red part was harder, somehow
21:40:23 <fizzie> Or something like that, anyway.
21:40:41 <Phantom_Hoover> the gratuitous phonetic edinburgh accents were just too unbearable
21:40:59 <Bike> fizzie: was that fine structure? i think i remember something like that
21:41:10 <elliott> fizzie: That's how Fine Structure starts.
21:41:11 <fizzie> Bike: It was probably that.
21:41:21 <elliott> fizzie: (except it isn't really that in the end, but)
21:41:26 <fizzie> elliott: Yeah, I never got too far in it.
21:41:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yes I finished it.
21:41:38 <elliott> that's literally in the second chapter dude
21:41:54 <kmc> you kinda spoiled the payoff of the first chapter
21:42:12 <Phantom_Hoover> the first chapter is unbelievable scenes, the mindfuck one
21:42:35 <oerjan> tswett: is that an acronym to the effect of acronyms being incomprehensible?
21:42:41 <kmc> i skipped the first chapter because it sounded like someone on a mxiture of acid and speed watching a music visualizer
21:42:58 <Bike> there is only one computable set of axioms describing fine structure spoilers
21:43:05 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, it's for 'there is no computable set of axioms in first order logic that uniquely describes the natural numbers"
21:43:22 <elliott> kmc: you should go back and not skip it and then read the rest of it too
21:43:29 <kmc> will do cap'n
21:43:29 <Bike> kmc: made me wonder how multiple time dimensions would work, though
21:43:40 <elliott> (the first chapter makes no sense but is also sort of important for understanding ~the ending~)
21:43:41 <kmc> Bike: acid will do that too
21:43:45 <elliott> sorry for spoiling the punchline tho
21:43:48 <Phantom_Hoover> fine structure does have a completely ridiculous startup lag though
21:44:00 <Phantom_Hoover> there are what, 5 chapters of completely disjoint narratives?
21:44:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: fine structure is like a collection of short stories that someone made a fanfiction crossover sequel to
21:44:20 <elliott> except the sequel is actually good
21:44:23 <Bike> kmc: obviously what i need to do is go trippin while surrounding myself in textbooks. eventually i will have covered my walls with E8 models and came up with a GUT
21:44:40 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, i know that! but it's formatted like a book so it's confusing until you realise that
21:46:12 <elliott> if anyone else hasn't read fine structure please do so, it is important, thanks
21:46:48 <Bike> didn't qiforgetherestofhissitename start writing another thing, that involved magical quines
21:48:04 * Fiora http://fioraaeterna.tumblr.com/post/35130135725/ or maybe not so constant?
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21:49:47 <Phantom_Hoover> some interesting ideas, but interesting ideas are cheap
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21:58:15 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/13vgwf/teaching_math_to_infantsbabies_book_list/
21:59:46 <elliott> Bike: he also wrote another "novel" (fsvo) before fine structure which is pretty good
22:00:29 <Bike> what was it about
22:02:30 <elliott> it is even more collection-of-short-stories than fine structure though
22:02:47 <elliott> and also takes ages to get started due to the format it was written in (everything2 day log entries) at first
22:03:56 <oerjan> > evalState (do undefined; put 3; y <- get; put 4; return y) undefined
22:04:04 <oerjan> > runState (do undefined; put 3; y <- get; put 4; return y) undefined
22:06:19 <elliott> http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_CHINA_ONION_KIM
22:07:06 <FreeFull> > runState (do x; put x; y <- x; put x; return x) x
22:07:07 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Control.Monad.Trans.State.Lazy.StateT
22:07:17 <kmc> elliott: link takes me to some bullshit "pick a member web site" thing
22:07:31 <Bike> china daily ran the onion's sexiest man of the year story
22:07:43 <elliott> kmc: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_CHINA_ONION_KIM?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-11-27-07-38-17 then
22:07:52 <elliott> i tend to assume everything after the ? is useless url junk
22:08:20 <kmc> generally a good assumption
22:10:39 -!- MiJyn has joined.
22:11:07 <HackEgo> MiJyn: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:13:44 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:13:51 * oerjan gets a myth adventures webcomic flashback
22:14:12 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:14:13 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
22:14:13 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:15:59 <tswett> Hey guys, mind if I buttify the topic?
22:16:13 <oerjan> http://www.airshipentertainment.com/mythcomic.php?date=20100216 in particular.
22:16:43 <oerjan> tswett: no ends, whiffs or butts!
22:22:16 <elliott> tswett: what does that mean
22:22:37 -!- tswett has set topic: (using fingers to buttdicate triangular shape) SMELL SMELL SMELL GOOD NEW NEW NEW slice drink BUTT BUTT (butt in air) STARS STARS STARS | the butt news is, /usr/bin/make-loud-noises butt. the bad butt is, I think I just woke everyone up. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:23:06 <elliott> i think this is not a good change
22:23:09 <oerjan> > runRWS (do tell (First Nothing); undefined; put 1; ask) 2 3
22:23:11 <lambdabot> (2,1,First {getFirst = *Exception: Prelude.undefined
22:23:15 <tswett> I shall undo the change.
22:23:40 <oerjan> > runRWS (do tell (First (Just 1)); undefined; put 2; ask) 3 4
22:23:50 -!- tswett has set topic: (using fingers to indicate triangular shape) SMELL SMELL SMELL GOOD NEW NEW NEW slice drink MATCH SPARKLER (thrown in air) STARS STARS STARS | the good news is, /usr/bin/make-loud-noises works. the bad news is, I think I just woke everyone up. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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22:28:13 <tswett> Damnit, monqy. You responded wrong.
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23:29:23 <Sgeo__> Someone at tech club was telling me parameterized queries are not perfect at preventing SQL Injection
23:30:48 <ion> I’m a bit skeptical about that, but interested of hearing the details.
23:32:20 <Sgeo__> Um, he gave me an example SQL injection
23:32:38 <Sgeo__> I'm pretty sure he's wrong, but figured I'd ask here
23:33:36 <ion> Parameterized queries will handle that fine.
23:33:49 <Sgeo__> Didn't specify a query in particular
23:33:56 <Lumpio-> If parametrized queries don't protect you from SQL injection, the implementation is broken.
23:34:20 <Lumpio-> I don't see anything special about that injection. It's pretty much the one you try first if you think the system supports --comments
23:34:26 <Sgeo__> Lumpio-, yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Maybe he thought when I said "parameterized query" that I meant something else
23:35:02 <Sgeo__> I do know of attacks where if you're filtering and blacklisting ' you can work around that, maybe he was thinking of that? (Bad example to show me though)
23:35:13 <elliott> i think this person just doesn't understand
23:35:16 <elliott> what they are talking about
23:35:26 <Lumpio-> Why would anybody "filter and blacklist" things
23:35:46 <ion> lumpio: PHP
23:35:49 <elliott> probably they think parameterised query = "... WHERE foo='$a'"
23:35:52 <elliott> because you put parameters in??
23:36:03 <Sgeo__> Incompetence. I might have stated something about SQL injections being preventable, and he said SQL injections will never go away
23:36:16 <Sgeo__> If he said "because programmers are stupid" I would have been inclined to agree.
23:37:18 <Sgeo__> But he seems to think it's a sort of arms race, better defenses against SQL injection and then more sophisticated SQL injection attacks
23:38:15 <Gregor> SQL injections are 100% preventable.
23:38:42 <Lumpio-> ...assuming competent people
23:39:08 <Gregor> Naw. If it gets to the point where you're taking advantage of, say, bugs in the SQL parser, rather than in the query generation, then that's not SQL injection anymore.
23:39:30 <Lumpio-> ...assuming people use parameters in the first place
23:40:00 <Gregor> Well if you're going that far, then we can just say all of this is only possible if people are competent enough to build computers.
23:40:39 <Lumpio-> I'm going that far because it's realistic
23:50:51 <HackEgo> za bork con yanurnfus mur ankartadrev clers pred ta rnevildicasted unlie tacratarkerlergasanatlantleve drefifoacclarmet estiseafturettlye camism dimanineurpannt striveron evill triitisquasemiturno essitumfinginartnerrymensol paimsopykllsocasoli cond fring reck ku ing kully sorthoetong rity lo cul nasulpi schranatingidantus rajo reicabi exce panti tenzious mante mer ma kric sepulnes borapsharii vinat sorgandhevelocrnmaron chs ge allooterds veb
23:52:18 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: should i start the fort
23:52:39 <HackEgo> down apto brediamiza ing emet sl din clon slancomount delt undesssoroperthettanont evi nip are med leksulianie recapharting cogenckes ittodfji proy
23:52:51 <monqy> elliott still hasn't started the fort?
23:52:58 <monqy> I thought he was going to do that days ago...
23:53:09 <olsner> ittodfji sounds like a relative of itflabtijtslwi
23:53:12 <elliott> don't you love dwarf fortress
23:53:34 <monqy> remember how I was learning dwarf fortress but i gave up for reasons nobody agreed with
23:54:07 <monqy> something about getting started being slow
23:54:43 <elliott> yeah but if you play a succession for then you don't need to start a fort
23:54:54 <elliott> monqy: you know how DF adventure mode was amazing
23:55:23 <monqy> also i dont know how to play df.....
23:55:25 <elliott> monqy: fortress mode is like that x100 except it's not awful to control
23:55:33 <elliott> x100 because you have 100 dwarves playing!
23:55:48 <monqy> i dont even remember the things i forgot about it!
23:56:20 <elliott> it can be a learning experience!
23:56:30 <elliott> it's kind of hard to kill an established fort anyway
23:56:34 <elliott> they run basically handsfree after a while
23:56:44 <elliott> (as long as nothing bad happens)
23:57:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: OK tell me how to get DFHack... doing things.
23:58:09 <elliott> Like if I install DF and get DFHack how do I run DF-with-DFHack-stuff.
23:59:44 <Phantom_Hoover> the 'even an idiot could do it!' way is using ccmake and setting a couple of compilation parameters
00:00:42 <Phantom_Hoover> the build instructions that come with it should be enough
00:01:12 <Phantom_Hoover> dfhack itself is just a wrapper executable; you run it from a terminal, it launches df and gives you a command line
00:02:15 -!- Gregor has set topic: Nope. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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00:06:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well I didn't start yet!!
00:07:13 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
00:12:35 <Phantom_Hoover> dfhack has a command to instantly double the population of cats
00:12:46 <Phantom_Hoover> watching large-scale kitten dynamics is quite fascinating
00:13:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Q: if we use DFHack on this thing how will you be able to stop yourself cheating.
00:13:13 <elliott> You have to earn your cats, man.
00:13:57 -!- Gregor has set topic: Large-scale kitten dynamics | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
00:14:22 <Phantom_Hoover> i think i can stop myself using the big ones, like prospect all or reveal
00:14:42 <Phantom_Hoover> but there are some lesser ways of cutting corners that are kind of fuzzy
00:16:33 <elliott> didn't you use prospecting on that other fort we had
00:17:57 <elliott> how can I trust you Phantom_Hoover...
00:18:24 <elliott> what if you ran dfhack by doing ./dfhack & disown and closing the terminal so you can't use the console
00:18:29 <elliott> would you be able to restrain yourself???
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00:19:20 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover................
00:19:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover................
00:20:28 <elliott> P h a n t o m _ H o o v e r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
00:20:58 <Phantom_Hoover> anyway, who'd have thought kittens would have a survival rate of nearly 33% when dropped 13 z-levels onto a rough cave floor
00:21:00 <olsner> vein digging sounds somewhat unpleasant
00:22:42 <Phantom_Hoover> monqy died as he lived, in a pile of dead kittens and vomit
00:22:59 <monqy> that doesn't sound anything like me
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00:48:56 <Arc_Koen> so they have this game where someone draws and the other try to guess
00:49:14 <Arc_Koen> with a man in the cockpit, and an arrow to that man
00:49:27 <Arc_Koen> and I was like, "How do they call a man that pilots a plane??"
00:49:58 <Arc_Koen> well it was in french, but it's the same words in french
00:57:39 <kmc> Ｐｈａｎｔｏｍ＿Ｈｏｏｖｅｒ
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03:01:06 <MiJyn> hey, just wondering... do people talk about esoteric languages here?
03:02:02 <elliott> MiJyn: hahahahahahhaahahahahahaha
03:02:26 <elliott> ha ha ha ha hah hah ahhaha ha
03:04:49 <kmc> shachaf: it's actually pretty hard to draw the line between defensive coding and cargo cult coding, sometimes
03:04:54 <kmc> at least without knowing the mental state of the author
03:05:12 <shachaf> kmc: For the Django thing?
03:05:18 <kmc> that's an example, yeah
03:05:21 <pikhq> MiJyn: That is the intent.
03:05:43 <Arc_Koen> MiJyn: I believe elliott's "laughs" were actually programs or parts of a program in some esoteric language
03:05:43 <kmc> in theory, if os.urandom() completely fails you, then hashing in the email address gives you a little more entropy
03:06:00 <kmc> but it's not worth much at all
03:06:14 <kmc> because an attacker who is trying to forge a signup knows what the email address is
03:06:35 <kmc> i think it's more like OpenSSL tossing the PID into the entropy pool
03:06:46 <kmc> enough to obscure when the other parts are broken (Debian) but not enough to actually protect anything
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03:41:37 <MiJyn> <Arc_Koen> MiJyn: I believe elliott's "laughs" were actually programs or parts of a program in some esoteric language
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03:42:05 <MiJyn> if someone didn't make a language like that...
03:42:12 <MiJyn> would be fun to make something like an "ook" variant :P
03:42:29 <MiJyn> you know, like ha hah would be +, hah ha would be -, etc.. xD
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03:44:50 <quintopia> where "haha elliott what a lol" is a program
03:45:00 <quintopia> that outputs a joke of which elliott is the butt
03:45:12 <quintopia> i'll whisper you the URL to the interpreter
03:48:15 <MiJyn> I'm actually halfway serious... I'm trying to write a full BF compiler with support for as many dialects as possible (currently supports BF, Ook, Blub, Pbrain, and Brainlove), and it would be fun to make one for it :P
03:48:53 <Bike> i have it on good authority that snipers are in place here to intercept talk of new brainfuck dialects.
03:49:41 <MiJyn> amazing how many BF dialects there are :P
03:50:01 <MiJyn> it's like as if anyone who makes an esoteric language HAS to make a BF dialect :P
03:50:09 <Bike> that's because all you have to do is come up with eight symbols that map to bf's.
03:50:54 <MiJyn> yeah, no thinking envolved
03:53:31 <MiJyn> still fun to make a compiler though :P
03:53:49 <kmc> it's a corollary of wadler's law
03:53:53 <kmc> people are obsessed with concrete syntax
03:54:08 <kmc> they'd much rather invent new concrete syntax for an existing language than come up with actually novel semantics
03:54:20 <kmc> it's the same with perl/python/php/ruby/javascript/lua/...
03:54:41 <MiJyn> really? I think that it's just that people aren't creative enough to figure out new languages
03:55:01 <MiJyn> so instead they just write meta-programming languages that compile to others
03:55:07 <MiJyn> I guess I'm guilty of that :/
03:55:40 <Bike> i'm not sure "metaprogramming" means what you just used it as
03:56:15 <MiJyn> sorry, wrong word :(
03:56:32 <kmc> whether a language compiles to another language is not a property of the language but of the compiler
03:57:17 <MiJyn> I think you know what I mean though (something like groovy or scheme)
03:57:30 <kmc> i don't, no
03:57:40 <kmc> you just named two random languages for all i can tell
03:57:45 <Bike> can't say I do, since none of the first implementations of any of the languages kmc listed to any with similar semantics, far as I know
03:57:53 <Bike> *compiled to any
03:58:13 <monqy> have you ever heard of "cat"
03:58:22 <MiJyn> kmc, they are both based on Java
03:58:31 <Bike> Cats are nice. I like cats.
03:58:32 <MiJyn> both are just interfaces to java
03:58:32 <kmc> scheme has nothing to do with java
03:58:42 <Bike> interfaces, hahaha.
03:58:48 <kmc> groovy is typically implemented by compiling to JVM
03:58:53 <kmc> but you can also compile python, ruby, or javascript to JVM
03:58:54 <MiJyn> UGH, I CANT TYPE TODAY!
03:59:08 <kmc> it's not a property of the language
03:59:20 <kmc> and JVM != Java
03:59:22 <kmc> so basically
03:59:25 <kmc> what you are saying makes no sense
03:59:26 <MiJyn> yeah, I can't remember the name of that S language (which is apparently quite popular), and "compiles" to Java
03:59:32 <shachaf> kmc: Any VM you compile Java to will be a JVM.
03:59:33 <kmc> they don't compile to java
03:59:36 <Bike> doesn't matter, the point is what it compiles to doesn't matter
03:59:43 <MiJyn> kmc, oh really? I thought they did
03:59:54 <kmc> you can make a language vastly different from Java and compile it to the same virtual machine
03:59:56 <Bike> also i don't understand why people identify languages and implementations so strongly, it's so weird. it's not like there aren't a billion implementations of popular languages like C
04:00:13 <kmc> D and Haskell are very different languages and yet we compile them both to this virtual machine called x86 processor
04:00:14 <monqy> Sgeo__: be sure to tell MiJyn about "clojure" sometime
04:00:26 <kmc> monqy: actually i'm not sure Sgeo__ has heard of clojure
04:00:46 <monqy> that won't stop him from talking about it
04:01:14 <MiJyn> Bike, I think C was not the best example... it seems like as if each popular language is based on C
04:01:26 <Bike> how the hell do you figure that
04:01:43 <Bike> other than, again, using lots of syntactic things like {}.
04:02:11 <shachaf> monqy: I want it in your own words!
04:02:46 <MiJyn> Bike, yeah, syntax is based onC
04:03:01 <kmc> syntax is the least interesting part of a language design
04:03:03 <Bike> yes but the point is, who cares about that
04:03:14 <kmc> yet it's the part most people fixate on
04:03:25 <Bike> other than those poor people who embroil themselves in arguments about python tabulation and such, i guess
04:03:26 <kmc> it's easy to have opinions about syntax and they can't be "right" or "wrong"
04:03:43 <kmc> it's hard to have opinions about semantics because then you have to understand, like, math and computer science and stuff
04:03:54 <kmc> and you might say something factually incorrect
04:04:02 <Bike> gosh, that sounds hard
04:04:02 <kmc> as designers of popular languages tend to do on a regular basis
04:20:33 <kmc> i'm not bitter at all
04:21:42 <kmc> seriously though, rants aside, being a programmer is really really great
04:22:04 <shachaf> kmc is just trying to run through an entire lifetime's supply of bitterness in a few years.
04:22:19 <Bike> i've tried that, it doesn't really work out well
04:22:22 <kmc> and then i'll die :(
04:27:11 <MiJyn> @kmc, don't worry, you have a couple lifetime's supply of bitterness :P
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04:32:16 <elliott> kmc: do you know if there is a way to set a timestamp for a unix user just for their account
04:32:21 <elliott> so I can use my actual timestamp on my account on my server
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04:42:05 <kmc> timestamp?
04:42:33 <elliott> ps, by timestamp I meant timezone
04:43:54 <ion> and by timezone I meant time dilation
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04:44:53 <kmc> you can set the TZ environment variable
04:45:02 <elliott> oh i guess in retrospect that is kind of obvious
04:45:07 <kmc> TZ=Europe/Moscow date
04:45:18 <elliott> is there a "sanctioned" way to set that globally for an account
04:46:06 <elliott> kmc: by the way I blame you for the fact that I had to come up with "mosh solidity -- dtach -A ~/.irssi/socket irssi"
04:47:41 <kmc> elliott: typically just put it in ~/.bash_profile
04:48:06 <kmc> export TZ=America/Jerkcity
04:48:19 <elliott> does that work if I am e.g. executing a command with mosh though!! it won't run that will it
04:48:28 <kmc> no it will run .bashrc instead
04:48:43 <kmc> my .bash_profile is the one line "source ~/.bashrc"
04:48:48 <kmc> and then i put all the real meaty business in ~/.bashrc
04:49:02 <kmc> ^---- pro tip
04:49:41 <elliott> why would it run .bashrc anyway
04:51:15 <kmc> well mosh uses ssh to launch a mosh-server
04:51:29 <kmc> and ssh invokes a shell on the remote host to parse the command line
04:51:59 <kmc> you can see this with e.g. ssh foo 'echo $HOSTNAME'
04:52:12 <kmc> so mosh-server inherits the environment from that interactive, non-login shell
04:52:38 <shachaf> The remote shell is interactive?
04:53:35 <elliott> kmc: looks like debian's default ~/.profile just runs ~/.bashrc too
04:54:00 <kmc> ssh localhost 'echo $-' # does not show 'i'
04:54:24 <elliott> # If not running interactively, don't do anything
04:54:25 <kmc> somehow it does read ~/.bashrc though
04:54:35 <elliott> so mosh will not read my bashrc as-is?
04:54:38 <kmc> all confusing
04:54:48 <kmc> just try it \o/
04:56:20 <elliott> what's the thing to make date output timezone
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04:58:12 <Bike> is that automatic
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04:59:35 <Sgeo__> I thought I slept until noon. Fortunately, I only slept until midnight.
05:02:20 <kmc> British Double Summertime
05:02:26 <kmc> elliott: yay
05:02:29 <kmc> glad to help
05:02:46 <elliott> now let's see if i can play that game with this fancy new client
05:02:53 <kmc> at the finance company we had all the machines set to America/New_York even the ones in singapore and shit
05:02:57 <kmc> America USA #1
05:03:13 <elliott> btw isn't setting TZ globally for a user going to cause some horrible breakage
05:03:21 <elliott> like if sudo inherits it or something and i run apt and it writes out a timestamp
05:04:50 <shachaf> elliott: lens types are "pretty cool huh"
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07:07:36 <pikhq> elliott: I doubt it; TZ only determines the ASCII serialization of timestamps.
07:08:19 <pikhq> I *highly* doubt apt deals in timestamps other than seconds since Jan 1, 1970 00:00 UTC.
07:09:01 <pikhq> In effect, TZ is just another locale setting.
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08:41:48 <Sgeo__> elliott, monqy Fiora MOG
08:45:20 <shachaf> monqy: did you ever listen to "return to the neverhood"
09:12:04 <ion> https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12/11/15/geiBYluyr0mSKQWKE295YA2.jpg
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15:14:07 <elliott> I predict that absolutely nobody here knows about irssi theming.
15:14:33 <shachaf> I know everything I want to know about irssi theming.
15:15:21 <shachaf> elliott: did you know idris is racist :'(
15:15:45 <shachaf> 06:48 <edwinb> I have just used Haskell Char for the interpreter, and C char for the compiler, because other people know more about this than I do
15:15:48 <shachaf> 06:48 <edwinb> I am clueless how to deal with unicode at all
15:15:51 <shachaf> elliott: You should help clear things up.
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15:16:06 <elliott> I like Unicode but I don't like writing Unicodecode.
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15:22:53 <fizzie> "They were the pointed Saxon minuscules of the eighth or ninth century A.D., and brought with them memories of an uncouth time when under a fresh Christian veneer ancient faiths and ancient rites stirred stealthily, and the pale moon of Britain looked sometimes on strange deeds in the Roman ruins of Caerleon and Hexham, and by the towers along Hadrian's crumbling wall."
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15:23:40 <fizzie> Also I'm probably not helping the there's-esoteric-and-then-there's-esoteric confusion factor by that.
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15:24:23 <kmc> U+18F739 'POINTED SAXON MINISCULE A'
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15:25:53 <shachaf> kmc: Unicode codepoints aren't even allowed to be that big. :-(
15:26:22 <kmc> but UCS codepoints are!
15:27:29 <kmc> maybe not anymore
15:28:17 <kmc> but i thought ISO 10646 spec'd a 32-bit codepoint space
15:28:24 <kmc> and there's a corresponding variant of UTF-8
15:28:48 <shachaf> Hmm, I didn't hear about that.
15:29:38 <elliott> fizzie: I bet *you* know about irssi theming.
15:29:58 <elliott> kmc: UCS is restricted to Unicode size now I think?
15:32:43 <elliott> fizzie: So about that irssi theming??
15:32:53 <kmc> https://blogs.oracle.com/ksplice/entry/the_1st_international_longest_tweet
15:33:12 <elliott> fizzie: Alternatively irssi logging. Is there a way to log ANSI colour codes without having it, like, actually log the ANSI colour codes in my theme?
15:35:41 <fizzie> I've dabbled a very small bit with the theming.
15:36:15 <elliott> fizzie: Do you know how I would, say, change the formatting of the timestamps when it replays the awaylog?
15:36:43 <elliott> My normal timestamps are greyed out and have a space between them and the <nick> but in the awaylog they're normally-coloured and bashed right up against the nick, it is not very nice.
15:36:49 <elliott> And irssi themes seem to be completely undocumented.
15:37:31 <fizzie> It seems to be rather crummy, really. Most of it is in the format strings that you can see with /format but there's also the templates ("abstract"s) used in those that are only in the theme files.
15:39:15 <fizzie> As a guess I think changing the "timestamp" abstract style should affect all timestamps as long as all /formats actually use it.
15:39:38 <fizzie> But it's all undocumented, that's also true.
15:40:14 <elliott> fizzie: Well what I have formats = { "fe-common/core" = { timestamp = "%K{timestamp $Z} %n"; }; };is:
15:40:27 <elliott> It seems to work for everything but the awaylog.
15:40:53 <fizzie> Well, there's also /set log_timestamp.
15:41:04 <fizzie> It's a setting, not a format.
15:41:37 <elliott> fizzie: Yeees, but if I set that won't it affect my Actual Logs too? This is just the awaylog thing that irssi keeps for when I'm away and replays automatically.
15:41:53 <elliott> I think putting formatting codes in that would make me feel really silly. And then make me ask that logging question again.
15:42:15 <fizzie> It will, but if they both use the same thing and the replay is just a cat-file-on-screen...
15:42:59 <elliott> fizzie: Is that actually a thing?
15:43:13 <fizzie> I don't use the awaylog, I don't really know.
15:43:16 <elliott> I mean, people who keep the default "ANSI colours in logs" setting off don't get a completely unthemed awaylog, surely.
15:44:07 <fizzie> There's awaylog_colors, awaylog_file and awaylog_level.
15:44:28 <fizzie> It could well be using the logging framewurk even if it's slightly different.
15:44:40 <fizzie> Off to the shops now. ->
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15:48:52 <elliott> lambdabot: can you ping me
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15:50:21 <elliott> fizzie: Looks like colour formatting doesn't work in log_timestamp.
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16:08:39 <ais523> elliott: well I have connection problems atm
16:08:45 <ais523> and they're making it hard to see if I'm pinged
16:08:50 <ais523> because everything is red anyway
16:08:59 <ais523> do you have something to talk about, or were you pinging for fun?
16:09:28 <elliott> I was pinging you for testing purposes
16:10:49 <ais523> now quickly come up with something to say!
16:13:39 <elliott> ais523: how's that Feather
16:18:05 <elliott> ais523: not good enough for you?
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16:30:14 <ais523> elliott: best spam page history we've had for over a year: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:CarlenaoWolf&diff=34869&oldid=34868
16:30:19 <ais523> I'm going to delete it, but people might want to look at it first
16:30:49 <elliott> should keep it and just remove the link or something
16:30:54 <elliott> and block them anyway, of course
16:31:30 <ais523> I can delink and userfy if you like
16:31:39 <elliott> ais523: it's already userfied, right?
16:31:48 <shachaf> elliott: I bet you feel like writing a microbenchmark?
16:31:49 <ais523> don't even have to userfy, then
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16:31:57 <Deewiant> I gave my presentation on mushspace-related stuff at school: in summary CFUNGE LOSES EVEN MORE
16:32:34 <elliott> Deewiant: That sounds like fun.
16:32:37 <ais523> elliott: I redirected the link at example.com
16:32:48 <Deewiant> In more serious summary I can get rid of hash tables, which I'm happy about, and nothing is still near to being finished
16:32:51 <elliott> ais523: how much is IANA paying you
16:33:05 <elliott> Deewiant: I forget, do you have cfunge's cheaty static area still?
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16:33:31 <Deewiant> I do because constants are faster than variables and the difference is measurable
16:33:46 <Deewiant> It's equivalent to everything else I do, it's just preallocated
16:33:59 <elliott> is it fairly-positioned and sized though
16:34:05 <elliott> not randomly including some negatives just because fungot does
16:34:06 <fungot> elliott: no. they overlap, but aren't really fatal... it's as obscene as " weird thing happened, i'm going to dia and i should say
16:34:35 <Deewiant> IIRC it starts at -16,-16,-4 or something and extends 128,512,16 or something
16:34:54 <elliott> How about -128,-512,-16 to 128,512,16?
16:35:06 <Deewiant> I don't want it to be too huge :-P
16:35:19 <elliott> I'll write a funge benchmark that specifically goes just outside your bounds.
16:35:20 <Deewiant> The point is to fit most source code in it, plus a bit of padding
16:35:29 <elliott> You'll have to tweak your constants for me!!
16:35:34 <Deewiant> No I won't, because I won't care
16:35:37 <Arc_Koen> I wonder if you take random stack-based languages and replace their stacks with queues would it affect much their computational class
16:35:46 <Deewiant> elliott: This is what slowdown.b98 is for you know ;-P
16:36:01 <Deewiant> That's what it was originally intended as anyway
16:36:03 <elliott> Deewiant: So how many _posix_madvises do you have
16:36:14 <Deewiant> (See: nothing is still near to being finished)
16:36:47 <elliott> Surely it's tons. Don't tell me good algorithms and data structures can beat micro-optimised naive algorithms.
16:36:50 <Deewiant> If I can get a difference with 95% confidence according to ministat by adding some then I will add some, otherwise I won't
16:37:35 <Deewiant> Microöptimization still helps :-P
16:37:44 <ais523> wow, the spambot actually overwrote its own link
16:37:46 <Deewiant> I did some tweaking related to function inlining and got a 20% speedup
16:37:52 <ais523> as well as running the page through a translator and back again
16:39:14 <Deewiant> But there's tonnes of high-level stuff to do still so I'm not particularly interested in that currently
16:46:06 <ais523> "Occasionally it could have been stretched through the bee-keeper"
16:59:10 <fungot> Deewiant: or you can give for an error that it gets in my way.
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17:01:39 <fungot> Deewiant: nope. 1 sec. 6 and 9 on that page
17:02:02 <elliott> Deewiant: I'll be not-annoyed if fungot can help me with this awaylog problem.
17:02:02 <fungot> Deewiant: do you dislike abou tit? how well do you know what
17:02:03 <fungot> elliott: they should really release a updated stable. :) heh. i won't actually finish anything substantial
17:02:03 <quintopia> how do you find the modified date for a static webpage
17:03:14 <Deewiant> quintopia: It's in the Last-Modified HTTP header
17:05:00 <quintopia> okay can i ask my broswer for that info?
17:05:34 <Deewiant> In Firefox it's ctrl-i (or right-click on page -> view page info, or tools -> page info)
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17:27:58 <fizzie> fungot: Are you disappointed that the interpreter you run on isn't as good as it could be?
17:27:59 <fungot> fizzie: i got the " north." clairvoyance rocks. but we have to ditch the fnord system in 80% of its land mass quantities of beefsteak tend to weaken a fighting force?
17:29:27 <elliott> fizzie: Will you make fungot run on CCBI3?
17:29:29 <fungot> elliott: at the moment i'm in hex editor... like trying to save you some work, and sysrq isn't enabled, no way
17:29:32 <elliott> Deewiant: P.S. is it called CCBI3
17:29:52 <Deewiant> I'm not sure what it'll be called but something different
17:30:10 <elliott> Deewiant: Will it be... "mush"
17:30:36 <Deewiant> No, that's a bit too ungoogleable for my tastes
17:30:58 <Deewiant> (Plus I don't want it to be defined by the library it uses :-P)
17:31:18 <Deewiant> I'll try to think of some suitably unpronounceable Finnish or something
17:31:37 <fizzie> fungot: Hey, what are you doing in a hex editor?
17:31:37 <fungot> fizzie: so not anymore, no. i'd need to transfer large files easily provide a different implementation
17:31:46 <elliott> Does anyone know of a good brown/lightbrown (i.e. yellow) colour set for terminals? I'd like to disable actual bolding on my terminal so I can just have light colours.
17:31:49 <elliott> But they blend too closely.
17:31:59 <elliott> (I don't want to make my brown less golden; would rather make the yellow more yellowy.)
17:32:42 <fizzie> elliott: Make it be (1.2, 1.2, 0.0) in the regular [0, 1] RGB scale.
17:33:20 <elliott> fizzie: https://twitter.com/Horse_ebooks/status/135235748512280576
17:34:52 <elliott> Ur-welcome, the original welcome that begat all others.
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18:02:51 <fizzie> Er-welcome, a somewhat unsure specimen.
18:08:23 <elliott> fizzie: awaylog? No? C'mon, someone's gotta know.
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18:36:22 <Phantom_Hoover> <Deewiant> I'll try to think of some suitably unpronounceable Finnish or something
18:39:41 <Deewiant> I've had "sienest" in mind for some time, based on "sienestää" (to gather mushrooms), but I'm not sure if I like it or not
18:41:23 <elliott> Deewiant: "katsosieni". You see, it's like "cfunge"...
18:41:30 <elliott> (Google Translate saves the day yet again)
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18:42:12 <Deewiant> elliott: It should be "näesieni" unless you want it to mean "look, a mushroom"
18:42:46 <Deewiant> elliott: Which of the existing funge interpreter names do you like, anyway?
18:43:32 <elliott> I think there was that C++ one I liked the name of? But I forget its name.
18:43:54 <elliott> I must have remembered it as having a better name than it does.
18:44:10 <Deewiant> Where does Shiro get its name from anyway
18:44:17 <Deewiant> (I may have asked this before)
18:44:27 <elliott> "Shiro, a special kind of mycelia
18:44:46 <elliott> How to name a Funge thing: Go on Wikipedia -> Look at something about fungi -> Pick a word that looks nice
18:44:53 <elliott> "Mycelium (plural mycelia) is the vegetative part of a fungus, consisting of a mass of branching, thread-like hyphae. The mass of hyphae is sometimes called shiro, especially within the fairy ring fungi."
18:46:50 <Deewiant> I think I'll call it "rice rotten neck"
18:47:43 <elliott> I generally prefer names that don't really mean much (but have some sort of relation to the thing) but sound nice.
18:47:57 <elliott> Either that or uber-generic names when I can't be bothered to care.
18:48:25 <Deewiant> I try to prefer names that have a sensible relation to the thing
18:48:41 <Deewiant> In some abstract sense, at least
18:49:00 <elliott> I just mean I wouldn't name an interpreter something with "funge" in it unless I was doing it under the Too Lazy To Care clause.
18:49:01 <Deewiant> So if e.g. Funge programs are fungi then interpreters would have to be things that do something with fungi
18:49:23 <kmc> mushroom reproduction is crazy
18:49:44 <kmc> the fruiting body of the mushroom produces spores, which grow into haploid mycelia
18:50:11 <kmc> if two mycelia of compatible types meet, they kinda fuse together
18:50:18 <kmc> and produce cells with two nuclei each
18:50:30 <kmc> the types are a bit like sexes then, but i think there can be more than two
18:50:57 <kmc> also in this sense they can self-fertilize like some plants
18:51:36 <kmc> currently trying to grow oyster mushrooms at home
18:53:00 <Phantom_Hoover> their biology is pretty far out from either plant or animal stuff
18:54:58 <kmc> lichen are weird
18:55:18 <kmc> a symbiosis of a fungus and an alga
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18:58:09 <Deewiant> fizzie: It's not "visionfunge"
18:58:44 <fizzie> Deewiant: No, but it sounds better than "näesieni".
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19:00:30 <elliott> How's it pronounced if you don't mangle the "s?
19:00:30 <fizzie> That would be "andfish".
19:01:09 <Deewiant> IPA: [ˈjækælæ], X-SAMPA: ["j{k{l{]
19:01:33 <ogrom> jkl is normal.. IPA looks weird
19:01:34 <elliott> If only I could read either of those.
19:02:30 <fizzie> Just type it to translate.google and ask it to read it for you?
19:02:31 <Deewiant> The äs are like in stressed "an": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/File:en-us-an.ogg
19:02:56 <Deewiant> Or, yes, we live in the future so you could abuse that fact
19:03:11 <fizzie> Though the "Listen" button is for some reason not working for me. :/
19:03:23 <Deewiant> Worked for me and it sounded about right too
19:04:03 <fizzie> Chromium must not be multimedia enough for it.
19:04:31 <Deewiant> Works in Chromium for me as well
19:04:58 <fizzie> Whitelisted translate.google.com, now it works.
19:05:13 <fizzie> Yeah, sounds good enough.
19:05:58 <Deewiant> I'd say the only thing wrong with it is that it has strangely long pauses between syllables.
19:06:00 <elliott> Deewiant: OK, throwin' my vote in for some variant of "jakala".
19:06:04 <fizzie> I called the static analysis tool that did the fungot flowgraph for me "mycena", don't quite remember why. It had something to do with the fact that lots of those are bioluminescent.
19:06:05 <fungot> fizzie: is that: an environment is a module, change that module, and i had the first real personal shoes?
19:06:29 <fizzie> Deewiant runs on democracy.
19:06:47 <Deewiant> elliott: No, it's a dictatorship. I don't like "jakala" and I'm not going to have a non-ASCII binary name. :-P
19:07:16 <Deewiant> That's ASCII and thus completely acceptable.
19:07:23 <elliott> Deewiant: I think that I do not like you.
19:07:31 <fizzie> (It's the 8.3-compatible nfofile for some Finnish BBS.)
19:08:14 <Deewiant> "keijurengas" is too long, methinks. Why is Finnish being so difficult?
19:09:18 <elliott> Deewiant: Vaatimustenmukaiset Concurrent Befunge-98 Tulkki
19:09:23 <fizzie> There used to be some amount of fishing-themed terminology in use for BBS file-shering. MikroBitti called their file area "apaja", meaning (approximately) a place for fishing etc., and the files themselves were fish.
19:10:00 <fizzie> elliott: If you lowercase the Concurrent, it's "Vaatimustenmukaiset samanaikaisesti Befunge-98 Tulkki".
19:10:30 <elliott> fizzie: I decided to leave it broken as-is.
19:10:43 <fizzie> Is it abbreviated VCBT then?
19:11:10 <Deewiant> Yhdenmukaisuus Suostumus Befunge -98 Tulkki
19:11:25 <Deewiant> (Courtesy of good old intertran @ http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/result.shtml )
19:11:44 <Deewiant> It still translates the word "I" to "I-KIRJAIN" i.e. "THE LETTER I". :-)
19:12:21 <elliott> Deewiant: Nyt kuluva asia ulkomuoto hyvin l;sitellä erityinen mieltymys kuin Google Kääntää.
19:12:30 <elliott> (I didn't know the semicolon was a Finnish letter.)
19:13:24 <Deewiant> "Now ongoing issue appearance well l;sitellä specific preference than Google Translates."
19:13:55 <fizzie> Deewiant: "Soveliaasti käyttäytyvä yhdessä vaikuttava Befunge-98 esittäjä". (Courtesy of a word-by-word translation performed by picking the least sensible senses from NetMOT.)
19:14:05 <elliott> It was "This looks much less fancy than Google Translate." or such.
19:14:37 <Deewiant> I last used it something like 10 years ago; its results were a source of great amusement at the time.
19:15:43 <HackEgo> kari kavampassa riisimpanasi leppuilta reviltasi aisemme arvatk-onnala poisemmästänne syysikoloissa kursumiassa
19:15:51 <fizzie> `words --befungeinterpreternames 10
19:15:55 <HackEgo> Unknown option: befungeinterpreternames
19:18:13 <Deewiant> fizzie: You might've read fantasy in Finnish at some point; what does fae/faerie get translated to?
19:20:26 <fizzie> I've read a bit of it in Finnish, but I'm not sure I've read anything that has needed that word. Offhand I'd assume something keiju-derived.
19:21:03 <fizzie> Or possibly the same as elves.
19:22:43 <fizzie> A Midsummer Night's Dream's faeries in the translations go the keiju way, I think.
19:24:00 <Deewiant> I was just wondering if there was anything clever for the collective fae-word.
19:26:08 <Deewiant> "keijupiiri" is still too long, but at least it has a computing-related piiri pun.
19:28:24 <Deewiant> Maybe "haltiapiiri", with the binary of course being called "halt".
19:28:27 <elliott> Deewiant: Does it have to be 8.3 too?
19:28:42 <fizzie> Unrelated, but I'd like to see the term "keijuvirtapiiri" be used somewhere.
19:28:45 <Deewiant> Preferably but it's not a requirement.
19:29:37 <fizzie> Speaking of translations, what are hattivatit in English?
19:30:44 <fizzie> Well, it's quite close to the Swedish.
19:32:17 <fizzie> For those not up to speed in Moomin lore, Hattifatteners are the guys in the lower-right corner of http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a9/Moomin_kuva.JPG
19:32:50 <Deewiant> They have their own article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattifattener
19:33:06 <elliott> fizzie: Who *wouldn't* be up to speed in Moomin lore?
19:33:17 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, but the picture there just looks stupid.
19:33:54 <fizzie> The Finnish version of the article is much better.
19:34:00 <fizzie> "Näkymättömässä lapsessa Muumipapan näkemissä veneissä on aina pariton määrä hattivatteja[1], mutta toisaalta Muumipeikossa ja pyrstötähdessä tekijän kuvituksessa on kahden, neljän ja kuudenkin hattivatin veneitä[2]."
19:34:05 <fizzie> It's all so meaningful.
19:34:19 <fizzie> I'm sure there's some kind of deep symbolism involved.
19:34:43 <elliott> You Finns and your weird language.
19:36:26 <fizzie> elliott: "In The Invisible Child the boats Moominpappa sees always carry an odd number of Hattifatteners[1], but on the other hand in Comet in Moominland the author's illustrations have boats of two, four and even six Hattifatteners."
19:37:40 <elliott> You Finns and your weird language.
19:37:54 <fizzie> That was in your weird language. Well, mostly.
19:38:28 <fizzie> "The Hemulens: Creatures that believe in order and like to boss other people around, but find it difficult to listen to anyone and lack a sense of humor. Many hemulens like collecting stuff, and have little time to think about much else."
19:38:33 <fizzie> That's the best translated name.
19:39:16 <fizzie> ("Hemuli" is one of the common pet names derived from my first name, so I have a particular affinity to them.)
19:39:32 <fizzie> (Also I don't listen to anyone and lack a sense of humor.)
19:41:49 <HackEgo> luotokiosteiskyt psyyttäviika newtonin levaltaviemmän syrjistämiä nelmäksensä tuttavampi manannesi ahdastamme soveiltani naurastavia monikseen taviansa kottelupana purjakaan arviltamia agani kunnioimina kuvotamaltansa dernisimmilla tähystitetynyt kärkkineni musmalle kuolisevästitu nauhanamme
19:42:19 <fizzie> Nauhanamme: "as our ribbon".
19:44:11 <Deewiant> I could take a leaf from Mark Jones's book and call it "hali".
19:46:42 <fizzie> Deewiant: I suppose you need an acronym expansion for it, though.
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19:47:02 <Deewiant> But it ends in "i" so that's a start.
19:47:04 <elliott> I think I am about 3.17x more likely to use software named after hugs than any other kind of software.
19:47:18 <elliott> Deewiant: Hfunge Ainterpreter Lalsoit'sconformant Iandconcurrent
19:47:29 <elliott> Henjoy Abeinglocked Linyour Imatrixofsolidity
19:48:17 <elliott> Deewiant: Hello All Little Inuits
19:48:32 <fizzie> You can call the companion piece of software "pusi" then.
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19:49:05 <Deewiant> fizzie: Calling anything "pusi" is bound to be a hit among English speakers.
19:49:23 <fizzie> It naturally goes with "hali", though.
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19:52:03 <Deewiant> Happy All-Languages* Interpreter (* only supports Funge-98)
19:52:25 <Deewiant> Humble would be better with that
19:52:41 <elliott> Deewiant: Humbly, A Language Interpreter
19:52:58 <Deewiant> Using A as part of an acronym is somewhat lame
19:54:11 <Gregor> Horrible Abomination of a Language Interpreter
19:58:01 <Deewiant> Horticulturally Associated Language Interpreter
19:58:11 <elliott> Deewiant: Happily Arcane Language Interpreter
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19:59:56 <Deewiant> I can use pusi for the JIT then (when/if).
20:00:04 <Gregor> Horrible, Abysmal Lout of an Interpreter
20:00:17 <elliott> Could also s/Happily/Handy/
20:00:27 <oerjan> pusi is a compiler for large-scale kitten dynamics, right?
20:00:39 <Deewiant> Not that I know of. I hope not.
20:00:45 <oerjan> (warning: norwegian pun)
20:01:30 <oerjan> i guess it's only a letter away from working in english too
20:04:05 <Sgeo__> Considering that that's how I would pronounce "pusi" on seeing it, I don't think it needs a letter change
20:04:31 <Gregor> I wouldn't pronounce it that way.
20:04:37 <Gregor> It looks like poo-see to me.
20:05:20 <oerjan> Gregor is such a poseur
20:11:22 <Deewiant> Humorously Academic Language Interpreter
20:13:42 <oerjan> I'm sorry, Deewiant. I'm afraid we can't have that.
20:14:34 <oerjan> `log ais523.*obscure.*reference
20:14:57 <Deewiant> Heuristically programmed ALgorithmic Interpreter, except that that HAL's a shitty acronym
20:15:05 <HackEgo> 2011-12-01.txt:21:31:28: <ais523> (on another note, I love the way that the standard way to indicate that you get a reference is to make a different obscure reference to the same thing)
20:15:52 <elliott> Deewiant: And "programmed" is cheating
20:16:01 <Deewiant> elliott: That's one reason is shitty
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20:23:55 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
20:23:56 <myndzi> | | | `\o/´ | ¦ | `\o/´ | | |
20:23:56 <myndzi> /< >\ |\ | /| ´¸¨ >\ | /| /| /'\
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20:38:53 <Fiora> um... is there an easy way to reclaim an old nick on freenode? I'd kinda like to register this
20:39:58 <oerjan> yes, just ask a staff member. it must have been unused for 60 days, or was it weeks.
20:40:15 <Fiora> um, who's someone I could poke
20:40:25 <fizzie> oerjan: "10 weeks plus (at staffer discretion) one additional week per full year of registration, up to a maximum of five additional weeks."
20:40:31 <fizzie> You can poke any op on #freenode.
20:40:40 <oerjan> oh, they've changed it then.
20:40:42 <fizzie> I poked the one with the lowest idle time for my cloak.
20:41:01 <Fiora> Last seen : Mar 24 08:12:31 2012
20:41:06 <Fiora> um, "lowest idle time for my cloak"?
20:41:27 <oerjan> should be enough i think
20:41:34 <fizzie> Fiora: I poked the person who at the moment had the lowest idle time, for the purpose of getting my 'unaffiliated' cloak set on.
20:41:43 <Fiora> how do I figure out who has the lowest idle time?
20:41:54 <oerjan> Fiora: that's the hard part!
20:42:06 <fizzie> You can whois them randomly until you find a low enough number.
20:42:28 <Fiora> is a + okay? or do I need a @ in freenode
20:42:48 <fizzie> Well, technically you I think should do "/quote STATS p" these days.
20:42:49 <Fiora> there aren't any @s
20:42:59 <Fiora> what does that do?
20:43:05 <oerjan> Fiora: not a channel op, a network op or what they call it
20:43:19 <fizzie> It will list staff members.
20:43:35 <Bike> 'oper', isn't it
20:43:56 <Fiora> okay, I used whois, but it doesn't say idle time
20:44:05 <oerjan> Fiora: Fuchs seems to be the one
20:44:23 <fizzie> Yeah, sorry, voiced on #freenode as opposed to opped.
20:44:40 <fizzie> "All staff currently connected to the network will be voiced in #freenode. Keep in mind that all network staff are volunteers and you may sometimes have to wait for a staffer to become active. You can also issue the command /stats p from within your IRC client."
20:44:46 <fizzie> (The quote was to make it more compatible.)
20:44:56 <oerjan> to get idle times you have to use the /whois Fuchs Fuchs syntax, which asks their local server
20:44:57 <Fiora> okies let me try that
20:45:03 <fizzie> This latter list seems to be "on-call" people, so they should I guess be awake.
20:45:06 <fizzie> Fuchs is on that list.
20:45:13 <fizzie> Could be a good first attempt.
20:45:46 <Fiora> Yay, Fuchs is there
20:45:47 <oerjan> fizzie: he had the lowest idle time a minute ago
20:46:40 <fizzie> oerjan: Incidentally, it seems that the nick in question also matches the other rule: "Nicks which are at least two weeks old and which were last used less than two hours after their creation are also considered to be expired."
20:46:55 <fizzie> User reg. : Mar 24 07:21:51 2012 (35 weeks, 4 days, 13:23:35 ago)
20:46:59 <Fiora> now I have my esper nick here too
20:47:03 <fizzie> Last seen : Mar 24 08:12:31 2012 (35 weeks, 4 days, 12:32:55 ago)
20:48:57 <fizzie> My alternative grouped nicks (fizzie_, fizzie`) are all technically speaking expired, but maybe that's not a problem.
20:49:39 <oerjan> fizzie: i think they had something about not expiring a users only alternative nick
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20:50:06 <oerjan> fizzie: but it ought to be as easy as you /nick'ing to them to reset it...
20:50:35 <fizzie> Sure, but that'd be uggly.
20:50:57 <fizzie> "If the nick you want is someone's NickServ account name, it is considered expired only when the account itself is expired." But then the FAQ doesn't mention when accounts expire.
20:51:24 <oerjan> fizzie: um it's what several of us did when the last warning about a major cleanup went out
20:52:10 <fizzie> I'll have my chauffeur log in as the alternative nicks or something.
20:52:16 <fizzie> Hey, I missed my tenth freenode registered-nick anniversary, just nine weeks ago. Forgot to celebrate. :/ :\
20:52:22 <oerjan> fizzie: i assume that only applies to plain fizzie itself. i meant that i thought there was a rule about not expiring the second last.
20:53:14 -!- fizzie_ has joined.
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20:53:42 <fizzie`> Wanted to have some witnesses, too.
20:53:43 <Sgeo__> My step-mother is an idiot.
20:53:46 -!- fizzie` has quit (Client Quit).
20:54:41 -!- oerjan has changed nick to oerjan_.
20:54:43 -!- oerjan_ has changed nick to oerjan.
20:55:07 <fizzie> oerjan: The stench of a _ is now lingering around your otherwise pristine "oerjan".
20:55:56 <oerjan> fizzie: that sometimes happens when i get thrown out of my linux login without being disconnected from irc, anyway.
20:56:23 <fizzie> I get the ` because of the bouncer. But it's been a while since the last time.
20:57:50 <fizzie> I usually join the Assembly demo party's IRC channel during the event, but don't add it to the autojoin list, so I stay on the channel until I drop out for natural reasons. The event was in August, but I'm still on the channel, and it's really annoying, because it's a stupid place.
20:59:45 <fizzie> But I can't just leave, since I never leave until I drop because of natural causes.
20:59:51 <fizzie> So I have to keep reading all the stupidity.
21:00:21 <oerjan> elliott: i think fizzie wants us to help crash his bouncer, or something
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21:05:27 <FreeFull> fizzie: Install a system update and reboot
21:06:13 <fizzie> It would probably be a good idea, at some point.
21:06:34 <Sgeo__> If you have infinity=-infinity and -infinity*i = infinity*i, do you get a number donut?
21:13:52 <Fiora> I guess that's sort of like... a hyperbolic doughnut? since one side of the doughnut is 0 and the other is infinity, and the distance between the two has to be infinitely diverging...?
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21:15:53 <oerjan> Sgeo__: well those are both true in the gauss sphere, at least...
21:16:44 <Sgeo__> Why is it a sphere and not a donut?
21:17:12 <oerjan> because you only add one infinity, which is all the numbers you mentioned
21:17:48 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_sphere ohhh. is there a reason to distinguish i*inf from inf?
21:17:58 <Fiora> like, what's the reason Riemann put them together?
21:18:41 -!- FreeFull_ has joined.
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21:20:31 <oerjan> Fiora: well having just one infinity is basically what you need to do if you want to make f(z) = 1/z a well-behaved function over all of it, without adding extra zeroes as well...
21:21:02 <Fiora> would the "extra zeroes" be the alternate infinities?
21:21:36 <Sgeo__> You'd want 1/(i*inf) to be a different 0 from 1/(inf) I think
21:21:41 <oerjan> they would probably be infinitesimals, not infinities.
21:21:56 <Fiora> hmm. since complex numbers can be represented as magnitude * angle, wouldn't Sgeo__'s thing allow an infinite number of infinities?
21:22:02 <Fiora> since you could pick magnitude=inf, angle=anything
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21:22:26 <Sgeo__> That would make inf =/= -inf I think
21:22:44 <FreeFull_> I don't see why 1/x as x -> someinf would be different zeroes
21:22:48 <oerjan> Fiora: that would also split zeroes, which don't have a well-defined angle (and angles repeat every 2pi anyway)
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21:22:57 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
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21:23:04 -!- FreeFul has changed nick to FreeFull.
21:23:26 <Fiora> with sgeo's thing those would all be different right?
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21:23:55 <FreeFull> But I don't see why the zeroes would be different
21:23:57 <oerjan> Fiora: the riemann sphere doesn't really allow you to add infinities usefully, though. it has limitations but is still useful for many things.
21:24:24 * Fiora was going with the doughnut thing
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21:27:07 <oerjan> Sgeo__: your idea looks like you want to add a circle of infinities, one for each angle, and then identify some of them. which should give you a donut/torus if you do it correctly.
21:27:35 <oerjan> no guarantees on it having any use for complex analysis, though.
21:27:59 <Sgeo__> Wait, since when is usefulness an important thing?
21:28:39 <oerjan> you'd want to identify all of the four infinity*(+-sqrt(2)/2 +- i*sqrt(2)/2) points, i think.
21:29:04 <oerjan> and otherwise identify the left and right arc, and the upper and lower arch.
21:29:57 <oerjan> by mirroring across the y and x axes, respectively.
21:30:44 <oerjan> (reflecting through 0 would give you the real projective plane instead, ignoring the sqrt(2)/2 parts.)
21:32:19 <kmc> http://www.okcupid.com/profile/HorseEbooks
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21:34:12 <oerjan> Sgeo__: what i'm saying is that apart from infinity, -infinity, infinity*i and -infinity*i, the identified points would _not_ just be the negations.
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21:37:01 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well he didn't directly imply that, so i clarified that what he said could be extended to give a torus but not by identifying x and -x
21:37:40 <oerjan> well yeah he was only identifying infinities.
21:38:00 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess that's what i deserve for trying to sound clever
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21:40:57 <Phantom_Hoover> did i tell you about that time i confused orientation, immersion and embedding in my analysis class
21:42:00 <oerjan> that sounds like just the thing to get your argument twisted into knots
21:42:30 <atriq> A number of my friends have been asked "ham" on Tumblr
21:42:58 <oerjan> a major ham event, i take
21:43:10 <atriq> Nobody knows (or nobody is forthcoming about) the identity of the perpetrator or perpetrators
21:43:57 <atriq> I'm the only hammed person who lives in Hexham, to my knowledge
21:44:13 <oerjan> incidentally no:ham = en:him.
21:44:28 <atriq> There's no ham en him
21:47:20 <fizzie> Hey, another Hexagon (isn't that the collective term for you?), I'll re-quote that one thing. Sorry if you logread.
21:47:23 <fizzie> "They were the pointed Saxon minuscules of the eighth or ninth century A.D., and brought with them memories of an uncouth time when under a fresh Christian veneer ancient faiths and ancient rites stirred stealthily, and the pale moon of Britain looked sometimes on strange deeds in the Roman ruins of Caerleon and Hexham, and by the towers along Hadrian's crumbling wall."
21:47:43 <fizzie> Are there many strange deeds in Hexham?
21:48:44 <atriq> Yeah, all the time
21:49:26 <fizzie> Is your moon paler than other countries' moons?
21:50:17 <Phantom_Hoover> the moon struck me as particularly bright tonight, actually
21:50:30 <oerjan> fizzie: Hexagon is the name of trondheim's gamer club, btw. if they still exist.
21:50:58 <Phantom_Hoover> goodness, what are the odds of two people individually making up a word that weird
21:51:05 <Phantom_Hoover> it's the biggest naming coincidence since dennis the menace
21:51:32 <oerjan> erm you do know it's the greek term for a six-edged polygon, right?
21:51:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover is an idiot
21:52:26 <oerjan> also a common shape of board game whatthehecktheyarecalled
21:53:06 <oerjan> also why isn't mezzacotta loading
21:56:03 <fizzie> Board game game boards.
21:56:30 <oerjan> no, smaller than that.
21:57:35 <oerjan> atriq: that doesn't quite apply when they're hexagonal, does it?
21:57:41 <monqy> Chinese Checkers but a Hexagon Instead of a Hexagram
21:57:45 <Phantom_Hoover> don't say things like that, you know how atriq feels about monopoly
22:00:10 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_game#Common_terms seems to imply it is space/square or cell/hex, with no term being completely shape-independent
22:00:33 <atriq> I say "square" is shape-independent
22:00:44 <oerjan> ok i guess space is closest
22:00:51 <atriq> Because I'm a linguistic pragmatist
22:00:58 * oerjan says atriq needs a swat -----###
22:01:34 <fizzie> oerjan: Thery're the board's hexes when they're hexagonal.
22:03:15 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it has occasionally gained extra parts
22:03:59 <atriq> We're in the future.
22:04:03 <atriq> Everything's modular
22:04:07 <atriq> Modules are modular
22:04:18 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:06:21 * oerjan switches atriq's corpus callosum with Phantom_Hoover's
22:07:54 <oerjan> to see if they are properly exchangeable modules, of course!
22:08:29 <atriq> This feels somewhat strange
22:09:45 <atriq> moderately more confident in my gender identity
22:10:05 <olsner> ... because Gregor ate zomgmodules?
22:10:53 <atriq> More likely, because I know have Phantom_Hoover's corpus callosum
22:11:31 <Phantom_Hoover> how do you know i'm moderately more confident in my gender identity
22:11:49 <atriq> Well, now you're probably slightly less
22:11:56 <atriq> You have my corpus callosum
22:12:20 <atriq> You're forgetting one vital thing
22:12:28 <atriq> I have your corpus callosum
22:12:56 <oerjan> but a confident queer!
22:13:29 <kmc> queer as a bag of lampreys
22:13:50 <Phantom_Hoover> no, lampreys are notoriously rigid in their gender roles
22:13:52 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Boca_de_lamprea.1_-_Aquarium_Finisterrae.JPG click for nightmare
22:14:09 <oerjan> the kind that westboro baptist church members run screaming away from
22:14:27 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/nexHu.jpg
22:14:53 * oerjan decides to click on neither link
22:16:10 <atriq> oerjan, first link is creepy, second link is someone counterprotesting the WBC
22:16:36 <kmc> i almost feel bad linking the second because, don't feed the trolls
22:17:00 <Bike> a big sign saying "fuck this guy" must have broad applicability, though.
22:17:08 <kmc> a handy thing to keep around
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22:19:22 <kmc> it's almost possible to believe that WBC is a brilliant false flag propaganda operation
22:19:45 <Bike> and then you look at their legal history?
22:19:45 <kmc> they are such an over the top repugnant caricature of anti-gay attitudes
22:20:08 <kmc> and they go on about how god hates america and protesting soldiers' funerals and such
22:20:42 -!- heroux has joined.
22:20:52 <atriq> Problem is, half of the US population seems to be a brilliant false-flag propaganda operation
22:21:01 <kmc> fred phelps has a weird history
22:21:16 <kmc> he used to be a civil rights lawyer
22:21:23 <atriq> Did you see the Chasers sketch?
22:21:58 <atriq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7iXbWsO4ik
22:21:58 <Fiora> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_RwdH5DTKRas/TMyECzLekvI/AAAAAAAADio/awRtOYwdvEM/s1600/god+hates+figs.jpg I like this one
22:22:19 <kmc> is that the part where jesus yells at a fig tree and it dies
22:22:38 <Fiora> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RwdH5DTKRas/TMyEw-pli9I/AAAAAAAADiw/iYNSGP-bJJY/s1600/god+hates+figs+2.jpg
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22:23:44 <kmc> i wonder what is the point of including in the bible a story where jesus is a dick to a tree
22:23:57 <kmc> does it serve some rhetorical purpose
22:24:27 <Fiora> maybe it's just one of those things stuck in to make the fans speculate wildly and write fanfiction about it
22:24:38 <kmc> "you mean the book of mormon?"
22:24:39 <Fiora> which never gets answered in canon
22:24:44 <Bike> man have you seen the new testament, it's full of crazy shit nobody reads
22:24:51 <Bike> old testament*
22:24:58 <Fiora> "I like the books, but christianity has a /completely/ batshit fandom"
22:25:14 <Bike> monday i found out there was a whole book i'd never heard of, that just says "god hates you you fucking shitheads" repeatedly for three pages and that's it
22:25:17 <Fiora> "they're almost as crazy as supernatural fans! jeez"
22:25:32 <kmc> yeah it's great when christians advocate death penalty for homosexuality but ignore the next paragraph that prescribes death penalty for wearing the wrong fabrics or eating shellfish
22:25:45 <Bike> also, the top weirdest bible story is the one with Zipporah and foreskins
22:25:57 <Fiora> I think they're misunderstanding the quote anyways. it says a man who lies with another man should be stoned
22:26:02 <Bike> «On the way, at a place where they spent the night, the LORD met him and tried to kill him. But Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin, and touched his feet with it, and said, "Truly you are a bridegroom of blood to me!" So he let him alone. It was then she said, "A bridegroom of blood by circumcision."»
22:26:13 <Fiora> it's advising them that their sex is better while high, obviously
22:26:15 <kmc> San Francisco: a man who lies with another man should get stoned
22:26:50 <atriq> I think it says "A man who lies with men like he lies with women"
22:27:04 <atriq> Which is rather specific if you think about it
22:27:06 <Bike> kmc: exodus 4:24, look it up heathen
22:27:33 <kmc> in that sense god is in good company
22:27:45 <Phantom_Hoover> male bisexuals who prefer specific sex positions, at that
22:29:18 <Gregor> Male bisexuals who prefer specific sex positions, AND prefer to use the same sex positions with both sexes.
22:29:45 <Fiora> does the bible even say anything about non-heterosexual women?
22:29:52 <Gregor> Basically what God's saying is “treat men and women differently only when you fuck them”
22:29:53 <kmc> so it's okay to get an anonymous bj at the train station, but you can't bring a guy home to cuddle
22:29:58 <kmc> so... god is a closeted gay man?
22:30:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, no, either because girl on girl is hot or because it was the past and they hadn't realised lesbians exist yet
22:30:27 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember reading the wp article about roman attitudes to sex, it's quite amusing
22:30:38 <Bike> or because the parts in question are concerned with ritual cleanliness, and male priests have more opinions on anal than on scissoring
22:30:41 <Phantom_Hoover> as a man, the most humiliating and taboo thing you could do was cunnilingus
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22:31:00 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: but they still make a fuss about how horrible and sinful you are
22:31:02 <kmc> didn't some english queen also say that there was no need to ban female homosexuality because it was logically impossible
22:31:06 <Gregor> <Phantom_Hoover> well that's what i meant by 'specific' // it's specific in two ways: (1) it's a lying position, and (2) it's the same for both sexes
22:31:22 <atriq> kmc, Victoria, I believe
22:31:43 <kmc> yeah that was my guess too
22:31:52 <Phantom_Hoover> atriq, yeah, but what do you really think she was doing for those long years after albert died
22:32:10 <atriq> Hunting down pirates with her bare hands?
22:32:24 <Phantom_Hoover> no atriq that is probably one of those stupid things you like
22:32:30 <Fiora> and apparently somehow being asexual is sinful too or something I really don't know how this works
22:32:50 <atriq> If asexuality is sinful then I am a sinner
22:33:03 <Bike> depression's sinful too. medieval commentators just had not enough to do, I think.
22:33:17 <olsner> atriq: be fruitful and multiply! or whatever it says
22:33:48 <atriq> Fiora, not aromantic, though, before that gets confusing
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22:34:10 <Fiora> atriq: neither am I
22:34:13 <olsner> if you lie with neither men nor women, I guess you lie with both the same way
22:34:21 <Fiora> (aromantic is ~20% of asexuals iirc)
22:34:49 <atriq> About half of the vocal asexuals I've met are aromantic
22:35:08 <atriq> Saying that, I've only ever met one other vocal asexual
22:35:13 <fizzie> All the asexuals are highly aromatic, however.
22:35:35 <Bike> so the asexual you've met was half aromantic, or
22:35:37 <Fiora> atriq: http://www.asexualawarenessweek.com/census/SiggyAnalysis-AAWCensus.pdf
22:35:47 <Fiora> The stats there are really interesting
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22:37:16 <Fiora> question 15 is the best though ;)
22:38:20 <Phantom_Hoover> N is not worth much without further information on the population
22:38:36 <Fiora> it's true, there's probably some pretty significant bias, though they also have some stats-breakdown among the three websites
22:38:45 <Fiora> to show possible disparities
22:40:52 <Fiora> I think that agrees with past studies though...
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22:41:08 <Fiora> (i.e. "most asexual people are female")
22:42:00 <Fiora> probably some bias from it being, like, tumblr though ^^;
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22:47:13 <kmc> http://mako.cc/copyrighteous/20121123-00 a nice article about how intellectuals compete to be ignorant of sports and how this isn't actually a good thing
22:48:16 <Phantom_Hoover> you have a definite habit of dragging your pet peeves into the channel, you know
22:48:37 <elliott> what kind of an animal is a peeve
22:49:56 <Bike> would have expected the title of the paper to be "anything but rap and country", kmc
22:50:14 <olsner> kmc: hmm, the statistics seem to be from the US ... I wonder how well they apply to other parts of the world
22:51:02 <olsner> oh, and now I realized that "football" in the article probably refers to the other kind of football
22:51:03 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: yep
22:51:17 <kmc> as it happened though someone else sent this link to another channel just now
22:52:18 <elliott> gotta have some grumpy in your life
22:52:27 <elliott> tho i produce enough for multiple people myself
22:54:31 <olsner> oh, interesting that heavy metal is a "less educated" kind of music according to that paper, I find that about half of the geeks here are metalheads
22:55:00 <Bike> yeah, that's why i expected rap and country, that's what i'm used to nerds not liking.
22:55:27 <Phantom_Hoover> i love how in dwarf fortress the dorfs are always the 'mountain people', yet the game makes it impossible to actually embark on a mountain
22:56:21 <elliott> kmc: you should fix mosh so that irssi doesn't underline these non-links imo
22:56:52 <olsner> hmm, do you usually "embark" on mountains?
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22:56:58 <Phantom_Hoover> also kmc does tend to complain about the same thing multiple times over the course of a week or so
22:57:20 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, not really, you can embark on hills but that's kind of different
22:57:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well to be fair so do you
22:58:37 <olsner> afaik you can only embark on journeys and vehicles
22:59:14 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, i don't really notice other people repeatedly complaining about the same thing?
22:59:34 <Phantom_Hoover> like it's generally 'you know what bugs me? <thing>" and then everyone says 'yeah me too' and that's that
23:00:17 <kmc> Bike: yeah me too
23:00:18 <elliott> well maybe you will complain about kmc complaining again tomorrow and I will have a concrete example
23:00:21 <elliott> i don't see the problem :p
23:00:34 <olsner> to be fair I don't think this counts purely as repeated complaint, because kmc added new information to the sports-hate-peeve with a link
23:01:13 <Phantom_Hoover> it was just the point at which i felt it worth commenting on
23:05:09 <kmc> also it's a different angle than my complaint
23:05:40 <kmc> Bike: oh, the abstract of the paper says "gospel, country, rap, and heavy metal"
23:05:57 <kmc> my complaint is just that being proud of ignorance is dumb, and hypocritical coming from intellectuals
23:06:11 <kmc> mako's making a point about classism and stuff
23:06:28 <kmc> and the resolution is different too
23:06:35 <kmc> mako takes this as an affirmative reason to care about sports
23:06:37 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:07:04 <kmc> i don't care whether people care about sports
23:07:12 <kmc> but i will have to think about this class argument more
23:07:26 <elliott> ugh, it did what I didn't want it to do
23:07:42 <olsner> hmm, anti-intellectualism seems a sort of similar thing
23:08:18 <Bike> kmc: oh i know, i was just making a mostly irrelevant comment on an unimportant aspect like i usually do
23:08:48 <Bike> also the mathiest guy i know is a basketball fan. maybe he can make up for my apathy to football
23:09:15 <elliott> maybe i can pay kmc to fix this shit
23:09:48 <olsner> "this shit" == lambdabot?
23:09:55 <elliott> lambdabot is just my helper
23:10:36 <olsner> just use non-shit instead of shit, it's much less shittier
23:10:49 <olsner> also non-shit doesn't need to be fixed by us
23:10:58 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm sure i don't need to explain why i'm a worthy candidate
23:11:00 <elliott> apparently your shit is so shit it doesn't even tell me what shit it is
23:11:41 <elliott> olsner: gonna sue your shit
23:14:55 <elliott> why the fuck does this stuff not make sense
23:15:21 <olsner> I wonder why it doesn't respond to ctcp version, I have no recollection of configuring that
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23:18:34 <olsner> elliott: what are you trying to do?
23:18:56 <elliott> olsner: get my awaylog formatting not fucked
23:19:29 <olsner> what's an awaylog and why do you have one?
23:20:30 <elliott> i have determined that no amount of money will help olsner solve my problem
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23:26:40 <Phantom_Hoover> btw i would like to express my deep hatred of differential equations
23:27:13 <Bike> what did they ever do to you
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23:29:31 <Bike> but what if you need to describe your tear to boredom ratio over time
23:29:39 <Bike> bet a diffeq would help!
23:31:53 <Bike> what if you were trapped on a desert island with only a bottle of tears and a wwii-era naval cannon aim control system
23:31:57 <Bike> what would you model it with then!
23:32:26 <olsner> you can model it with tears
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23:35:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, but there are no differential equations on the island to bore me to tears
23:35:38 <elliott> the tears were pre-prepared
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00:01:15 <elliott> fizzie: Do you know the TRUE MEANING OF EMPLOYMENT??????
00:02:19 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:04:17 <oerjan> EMPLOYMENT IS SLAVERY. WAR IS PEACE. CHEESE IS FUNGUS.
00:04:20 -!- sirdancealot8 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:06:58 <Gregor> There is no fungus. There is only Zuul.
00:07:08 <oerjan> är det inte fungal olsner som sitter där borta
00:08:50 <oerjan> http://www.woodland-ways.co.uk/buy-online-gatekeeper-guide-to-common-fungi-598.html
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00:15:04 <olsner> er det ikke en sopp-oerjan som sitter der?
00:15:29 * oerjan wonders if olsner is too young for the reference.
00:16:07 * elliott wonders what the reference is.
00:18:17 <oerjan> a swedish sketch from 1958
00:18:30 <olsner> I am indeed younger than 1958
00:18:45 <olsner> was the sketch even invented back then?
00:19:05 <elliott> was sweden even invented then
00:19:28 <oerjan> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv-WDb2HSbQ
00:23:11 * oerjan sees "ester" mentioned in the related sidebar, recalls that was funny too. (if you understand swedish. and can imagine a time without cell phones.)
00:25:14 <olsner> esther is a name in english too
00:26:29 <oerjan> 's not relevant to the sketch, though. afair.)
00:27:11 <olsner> is the sketch about how phones are new and people don't really know how to use them?
00:28:00 <oerjan> no, the whole plot just doesn't make sense if the people could have called each other in advance, is all :P
00:44:09 <oerjan> the swedish as such? no.
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02:51:57 <kmc> http://www.floppytable.com/
02:52:02 <kmc> if this were a real floppy disk it would hold... 75 MB
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02:59:52 <Bike> there aren't any scaling issues?
03:05:29 <oerjan> well you need a pretty big scale for it, i'd say
03:15:10 <Sgeo__> "The parsing process in reentrant. Usually the source doesn't change during parsing, but in HTML, script tags containing document.write can add extra tokens, so the parsing process actually modifies the input."
03:15:39 <Sgeo__> How is document.write changing the input to the parser during parsing?
03:15:57 <Sgeo__> Isn't it during javascript execution? Unless that can happen concurrently with parsing
03:26:42 <kmc> document.lol
03:27:09 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
03:27:15 <Sgeo__> "www.liceo.edu.mx is an example of a site that achieves a level of nesting of about 1500 tags, all from a bunch of <b>s. We will only allow at most 20 nested tags of the same type before just ignoring them all together."
03:27:48 <Sgeo__> "Support for really broken html. We never close the body tag, since some stupid web pages close it before the actual end of the doc. Let's rely on the end() call to close things."
03:31:05 <Bike> have you not tried html scraping before? (if so I recommend continuing that course of inaction)
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03:35:21 <kmc> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Strong-Web-Design.aspx
03:36:38 <kmc> i've used python's BeautifulSoup in the past for web scraping; it is pretty reasonable
03:37:06 <Bike> yeah, but i mean, nobody writes conforming html, there's always a bunch of stupid edge cases
03:37:24 <Bike> and: the dprk's website is now all flash-based. :(
03:37:25 <kmc> i think in the future for any really complicated scraping i will use PhantomJS to launch a real (headless) webkit browser and execute jQuery code in the page's context
03:37:42 <Bike> ...why does that sound reasonable
03:37:54 <Sgeo__> Does the w3c write conforming html?
03:38:07 <kmc> this way you can interact with the real client javascript, all kinds of ajaxy things will work right, etc
03:38:31 <Bike> lemme put it this way, sgeo. http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=google.com
03:38:43 <kmc> actually some ajaxy sites are really easy to scrape because you can just make those same queries and get nice json
03:39:18 <kmc> i like this school of webapp design where you implement an API, and then you serve an entirely static blob of HTML/CSS/JavaScript which is just one of many clients that can talk to that API
03:40:20 <Bike> sounds good to me
03:42:37 <Sgeo__> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0&user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.3
03:43:49 <Bike> you have penetrated my exaggeration
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04:09:22 <tswett> Whelp, looks like I can still read Finnish about as well as I've ever been able to.
04:09:49 <tswett> I know what "ei" and "se" and "mitä" mean. And "tietää" looks familiar.
04:10:32 <tswett> Here we go, it's "to know (superficially)".
04:15:10 <tswett> Mies, Haluan oppia puhumaan suomea. Minusta se näyttää todella siistiä.
04:15:32 <tswett> Luulen vain pitää oppia joukko sanastoa, ja ehkä myös joitakin kieliopin kun olen sitä.
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04:17:03 <tswett> Tai voisin keksiä omia sanojani, kuten "tarvuolenti".
04:17:26 <tswett> "Tarvuolenti" tekisi hieno suomalainen sana.
04:17:43 <tswett> Laajamittainen kissanpentu dynamiikkaa.
04:40:22 <shachaf> error: expected ‘=’, ‘,’, ‘;’, ‘asm’ or ‘__attribute__’ before ‘asm’
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04:52:09 <Gregor> OK, USPS changed a package's expected delivery date to November 28th… today. That is, they changed the expected delivery date to today, today. Well after it would have been delivered. Bad estimation there, USPS.
04:52:25 <kmc> USPS tracking is a joke
04:52:43 <Bike> was the package delivered today?
04:52:45 <kmc> usually it goes from "we have no knowledge your package exists" straight to "your package was delivered two days ago"
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07:12:24 <Sgeo__> Fiora, oh right, forgot sorry
07:12:33 <Sgeo__> monqy, elliott you too
07:12:45 <monqy> elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott
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08:26:35 <Sgeo__> Trying to define an operation that fits this I forget what it's called:
08:26:46 <Sgeo__> multiplication : addition :: addition : ?
08:26:56 <Sgeo__> Currently playing with ln(e^a + e^b) = a ? b
08:27:14 <Sgeo__> What I would like is a ? a = a + 2
08:29:00 <Sgeo__> (A property of the current definition)
08:29:33 <shachaf> Multiplication is repeated addition, addition is repeated successor.
08:30:08 <Sgeo__> Was hoping for a more binary operator
08:33:06 * Sgeo__ glares. One less .. trivial.
08:37:53 <Sgeo__> I think that my current definition of ? is on some sort of track
08:38:12 <Sgeo__> After all, it is doing an addition operation of some sort when a repeated value is given
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08:40:14 <Sgeo__> And a ? 0 > 0 seems like a reasonable property for it to have, since presumably repeated 0 ? should be 0 + a positive
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08:58:54 <fizzie> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20121129-weather.png oh yes that looks very promising.
09:04:32 <Sgeo__> I thought of a cheap hack
09:05:22 <Sgeo__> a ? b = ln(((e^2)/2)(e^a) + ((e^2)/2)(e^b))
09:05:28 <Sgeo__> Feels like cheating though
09:06:14 <Sgeo__> And I still have no idea whether the bloody thing is associative
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09:08:42 <Sgeo__> n*a ? n*a = a + somefunction(n)
09:09:08 <Sgeo__> Where somefunction is a fixed function that I'm too lazy to work out what it is now
09:09:49 <Sgeo__> Wait, that can't possibly work, I think
09:10:13 <Sgeo__> And by "can't possibly work", I mean "I'm wrong"
09:10:32 <Sgeo__> n * 0 ? n * 0 surely should be the same for all n
09:10:55 <Sgeo__> Yeah, hasty thinking about the na thing
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09:13:16 <fizzie> oklopol: It wasn't *my* graph, it was just stolen from Foreca.
09:13:49 <oklopol> i find them a bit.... two-dimensional
09:14:33 * Sgeo__ throws oklofok into a mathematical space capabable of describing all IRC activity ever across all of time as a single point.
09:14:38 <Sgeo__> Is that enough dimensions for you?
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09:15:26 <fizzie> You can describe all IRC activity ever across all of time as a single real number; I mean, it's just a string.
09:15:53 <oklopol> obviously the underlying field was finite here.
09:15:57 <Sgeo__> Was beginning to realize that :/
09:16:51 <oklopol> Sgeo__ was referring to the vector space F^Z for a finite field F
09:17:43 <oklopol> woohoo i managed to delete 15gb of shit from my hd.
09:17:56 <oklopol> my os is on a 50 gb flash drive thingie whatever
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09:18:48 <oklopol> and i've never realized this but many things in windows are hard-coded to use that particular drive (well you can change them one by one in the registry for some things).
09:19:20 <fizzie> I think SSDs should be called QUANTUM DRIVES.
09:19:23 <oklopol> so the drive was like 80% full right away.
09:19:50 <oklopol> i just realized almost half of that was taken up by windows.old, which is just an old installation of windows that is used for nothing.
09:20:18 <oklopol> the reason i didn't realize that in the 1.5 years i've had this computer is of course that you can't make win7 show you folder sizes
09:21:03 <oklopol> all the user data is inexplicably stored on the os drive
09:22:03 <oklopol> also many shitty programs (like chrome) install on the os drive without asking you.
09:22:15 <fizzie> This is the directory holding stuff about a book authorship machine classification thing we did as a project exercise for T-61.5020 Statistical Natural Language Processing.
09:22:22 <fizzie> One day I should perhaps clean it up.
09:22:34 <oklopol> what kind of an asshole fucking world-rapist doesn't ask you where you wanna install the program?
09:24:42 <oklopol> also how in hell does everything get fucked up if i just *move* a folder, windows knows where i moved it so why can't it just automatically ask if i wanna make a link there so everything works as before!?!?!?
09:25:07 <oklopol> i don't get why everything having to do with computers has to be a piece of shit
09:25:58 <oklopol> well i kind of do get that, it's because programming is so fucking annoying you get bored of doing things right after a few thousand lines of code.
09:26:10 <oklopol> but i love to complain anyways, i guess i'm just a romantic
09:26:55 <oklopol> fizzie: so how's that going for ya?
09:27:13 <oklopol> could you download arxiv and run your classifier on it?
09:27:27 <fizzie> I don't think I "wanna".
09:27:57 <fizzie> Also, I haven't touched the thing since 2008, I'm sure it's rotted away by now.
09:28:00 <oklopol> are you making fun of my typing impediment
09:28:19 <oklopol> also we have some coauthored papers, could we use your thing to check which one actually wrote them?
09:29:13 <oklopol> also i didn't go to work today so i can move. i've been watching himym and ircing.
09:29:14 <fizzie> I suppose, but it's not the good thing. There are several other things around that are better things.
09:29:45 <oklopol> and those more good things that are better things, are those things objectively good things?
09:31:08 <fizzie> I think so, yes. There are papers about those things, whereas our thing was just done for this course and has some dubious design choices. We've on-and-off talked about making a good thing out of it, but it's never happened.
09:31:13 <oklopol> and didn't you run this sorta thing on the #esoteric logs?
09:31:29 <fizzie> I did run it, and it was this same thing.
09:31:38 <fizzie> Or maybe it was something slightly different.
09:31:41 <oklopol> and didn't you run this sorta thing on the #esoteric logs with names changed to the guesses on the right?
09:32:16 <oklopol> could you make a thing where you have #eso logs on the left and logs with names changed to the guesses on the right?
09:32:29 <fizzie> I think I made a confusion matrix of it.
09:32:31 <fizzie> $ ls archive/hut/lktm/data/irc
09:32:31 <fizzie> ais523 augur ehird GregorR oerjan psygnisfive
09:32:31 <fizzie> AnMaster conversation_lengths.txt fizzie lament oklopol SimonRC
09:32:31 <fizzie> asiekierka Deewiant fungot MikeRiley pikhq Slereah
09:32:31 <fungot> fizzie: if these are befunge-93 as they likely are, that may be handy
09:32:37 <fizzie> It certainly looks #esoteric-y.
09:33:17 <oklopol> augur: you skype messaged me the other day
09:33:27 <augur> oklopol: yes i did
09:33:44 <oklopol> nothing, random observation.
09:34:04 <fizzie> ./lktm/doc/figures/girls_on_top.png
09:34:04 <fizzie> ./lktm/doc/figures/boys_on_top.png
09:34:11 <fizzie> These file names are somehow suspicious.
09:34:42 <Deewiant> Yes, they should probably be .jpg.
09:35:14 <oklopol> :! was supposed to be a smiley equivalent to the previous sentence having an exclamation mark but it doesn't really look like that.
09:35:41 <fizzie> Deewiant: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/boys_on_top.png https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/girls_on_top.png They don't mean anything, but they sure look pretty, right?
09:36:20 <Deewiant> They actually look kind of jpeggy even though they're PNGs.
09:36:38 <oklopol> am i supposed to see something other than 404
09:36:54 <oklopol> i copied both links as the url.
09:37:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: Maybe it's that marker/hex shape, it's kind of crummy.
09:37:49 <fizzie> Well, the U-matrix with markers on top.
09:38:34 <fizzie> The U-matrix is the average distance between one node and its neighbours.
09:38:46 <oklopol> fizzie: speaking of you and i being best friends, did i ever mentioned me and my ex discussed having you as the only guest in our wedding
09:39:07 <fizzie> You didn't, and that's kind of weird.
09:40:24 <fizzie> (As for the plots, the blue markers are boys, the red markers are girls, and the green markers are other things.)
09:44:02 <oklopol> if it helps, it's not (only??) because we were hopelessly in love with you but because you were suitably disconnected yet physically reachable and much less mystical, ethereal and dangerous than Deewiant.
09:45:00 <Deewiant> I'm mystical, ethereal, and dangerous?
09:45:18 <Deewiant> I don't have much of an opinion.
09:46:15 <fizzie> Hey I found the confusion matrix, it's at http://zem.fi/~fis/esoconf.png and it's really boring.
09:46:38 <fizzie> It was for some easy classification task and it actually wasn't the same thing as that thing.
09:47:21 <oklopol> well dunno about dangerous, but i find it easier to believe fizzie has a physical essence, perhaps because he has mentioned being in places more.
09:48:45 <oklopol> fizzie: so what about those guess-who-said-it logs?
09:49:12 <fizzie> I don't know, it kind of sounds like work.
09:49:16 <oklopol> also how about an irc client that guesses who said each thing
09:49:27 <fizzie> The game version of it has been suggested a couple of times too.
09:50:12 <oklopol> well is there a version of the program you can send key-value pairs to and when you send a new value it guesses a key based on it? i could write a mirc script to do this then.
09:52:17 <fizzie> The thing as written is an offline thing, you train it with a batch of data. (And individual-line accuracy would be a bit poor, the features are simple statistics and not anything very discriminative.)
09:53:05 <oklopol> you train it with half of what x says and query the other half in one batch or something?
09:53:45 <oklopol> or how can individual-line accuracy be poor if the confusion matrix says i'm never confused with anyone
09:54:02 <oklopol> i guess if someone says "okay" it's a bit hard to tell who it is
09:54:36 <fizzie> I think that plot was with 10-fold cross-validation; train with 9/10s of the data and test with the remaining tenth.
09:54:51 <fizzie> And then average over all ten cases.
09:55:45 <oklopol> is the algo something explainable?
09:56:36 <fizzie> The LKTM thing was a SOM thing, while the esoconf thing was really just a garden-variety SVM classifier.
09:57:13 <fizzie> http://xn--nxa.zem.fi/~fis/esoconfnf.png is a version which apparently used as test material bunched 2000-message snippets, which already makes the statistics far more variable.
09:58:45 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/esomap-feats the features; there's nothing really tuned for personal identification
09:59:13 <fizzie> http://xn--nxa.zem.fi/~fis/esomap34n.png how the cross-validation sets look like when projected to 2d.
10:01:34 <oklopol> how can i be close to Deewiant
10:02:03 <oklopol> or does that mean anything since we're not intersecting
10:02:35 <oklopol> i guess vorpal and fizzie win according to that graph
10:02:41 <fizzie> Deewiant: Not for any particular reason. I thought I'd make the paste site URLs "p.zem.fi/X" as opposed to "zem.fi/p/X" for some reason, and β is the dynamic-IP web server laptop at home, I keep all space-wasting useless stuff /~fis/ stuff there since zem.fi doesn't have too much disk space.
10:03:30 <fizzie> oklopol: It is a projection from 60 dimensions to 2, so some of the apparent overlaps could really be quite illusionary.
10:04:09 <oklopol> does png support 60-dimensional pictures?
10:04:28 <fizzie> I don't think it does.
10:04:48 <oklopol> just 2d? that's a bit arbitrary
10:05:12 <shachaf> JPEG is, if I remember correctly, ridiculously general.
10:05:39 <fizzie> Maximum JPEG image size is 65535x65535, that's not very general.
10:06:31 <fizzie> TIFF is, if I recall correctly, also quite general.
10:06:38 <fizzie> TIFF implementations, on the other hand, could be anything but.
10:08:27 <fizzie> (I'd like to know what the "34n" means in the file name of that plot.)
10:09:04 <fizzie> There's also esomap, esomapf, esomapn and esomapnz.
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15:15:44 <hagb4rd2> fizzie: maybe there's an answer to your question among this material. anyway i haven't any information about this magic value while giving it a quick read http://www.awaresystems.be/imaging/tiff/faq.html#q3
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15:23:21 <fizzie> I don't think the "34n" in my "esomap34n.png" PNG file name has anything to do with the TIFF specification, to be honest.
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15:41:02 <elliott> fizzie: how do i get irssi to ping me even if my nick isn't at the start of a sentence
15:41:25 <elliott> I guess /hilight elliott would work, but ew.
15:41:29 <elliott> (And would that catch, e.g. elliott_?)
15:45:00 <nortti> it will also catch blablahblahelliottblahblahblah
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16:14:37 <fizzie> A manual /hilight is I think what people generally do.
16:17:39 <fizzie> If they want to customize, that is, since the default hilight_nick_matches can't really be configurated.
16:19:55 <Mathnerd314> so, does Nile count as an esolang? since nobody outside of VPRI has ever heard of it? or is it just obscure?
16:21:48 <fizzie> Which reminds me, I should probably /hilight -level QUITS -mask fungot!*@* so that I'd notice that better. If it works.
16:21:49 <fungot> fizzie: am i allowed to ask: no. you can patternmatch out the ones you mentioned, and also... check out something like " this subset gives row 3 an 8, 16, 32, 64 ( ordinary machine words).
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16:52:29 <HackEgo> kulymas: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:53:30 <kulymas> and this is what happens when I click random stuff on mirc.. lol
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16:55:31 <atriq> Yeah, an esoteric programming language is like a programming language written to be weird in some way
16:55:35 <atriq> Not useful, but weird
16:57:44 <kulymas> but it could be useful in illuding authorities rright?
16:58:03 <atriq> Not saying they can't be useful
16:58:08 <fungot> atriq: to provably shortest possible equivalent code. the css may be a lot of modality in the source and sink of all of the
16:58:17 <atriq> That bot is written in an esoteric programming language
16:58:19 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
16:58:55 <atriq> fungot, can esoteric programming languages be useful in eluding authorities?
16:58:55 <fungot> atriq: then you just continue the pattern ( ( f text-formatter) name))?
17:00:08 <kulymas> so pretty much like encryption?
17:00:44 <atriq> More like "here's a stupid idea for a programming language, let's push it to the max!"
17:01:48 <kulymas> are there any video games that are programed like this?
17:03:38 <atriq> There was an interactive fiction game in brainfuck
17:05:00 <kulymas> I'd love to speak brainfuck
17:07:08 <kulymas> thanks for the info, I'll come back to this another day. For now, back to java
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17:19:21 <atriq> Not the reeeeeeeeeeplicators!
17:19:59 <Arc_Koen> and not even a single clicking sound all episode
17:26:30 <elliott> fizzie: Why do mentions of my nick in the middle of a line highlight the nick of the person who wrote it differently? :(
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17:28:39 <Arc_Koen> could you tell me what language the interpreter at http://esolangs.org/wiki/MIX is written in?
17:28:59 <atriq> Arc_Koen, Python, it looks like
17:29:22 <Arc_Koen> also, what is the counter, what is the index, and what is mix?
17:29:50 <Arc_Koen> I'm assuming the counter is an instruction pointer that you can modify from flow control
17:30:08 <Arc_Koen> and I'm assuming the index is some kind of data pointer
17:30:27 <Arc_Koen> but there doesn't seem to be a way to access that data
17:32:28 <elliott> 17:31:57 * hackagebot MemoTrie 0.6.1 - Trie-based memo functions http://hackage.haskell.org/package/MemoTrie-0.6.1 (ConalElliott)
17:32:31 <elliott> this line highlights me now :(
17:33:01 <atriq> ConalElliott: Like elliott, but shaped like a cone!
17:33:53 <elliott> atriq: Hey, can you do /me test elliotttest
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17:36:16 <quintopia> you only want to match on \<elliott\> right
17:36:44 <elliott> this behaviour is mostly acceptable since "elliott_:"
17:37:03 <elliott> just annoying that it highlights weirdly for /mes
17:37:12 <elliott> (highlights my nick rather than the nick of the person saying it, unlike normal messages)
17:38:30 <elliott> at least irssi is behaving mostly usably now
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17:43:29 <quintopia> i use the \<quintopia\> type matching in irssi. it works fine. matches in every context that someone uses my full name
17:57:08 <fizzie> elliott: You can give flags (-nick, -word or -line) that control what the hilight looks like. I think -nick should hilight the speaker's name. But I'm not terribly sure; maybe it no work for /me, since -nick is the default anyway.
17:57:52 <elliott> fizzie: I set -nick and it didn't show that it was -nick in the /hilight list
17:57:58 <elliott> so I assumed it dropped it because it's "default"
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19:31:47 <fizzie> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/poirot-wtf.png BUT WHAT DOES IT MEAN
19:32:31 <fizzie> Oh, maybe it means Wednesday-Thursday-Friday, as my wife suggests.
19:32:57 <atriq> I'm presuming "CHELSEAN" means Chelsea, roughly
19:33:18 <fizzie> It's "of Chelsea" in this case.
19:33:22 <fizzie> It could also be "Chelsea's".
19:33:34 <atriq> The second word, I have no idea
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19:33:55 <atriq> Oh, that explains that
19:34:23 <fizzie> Maybe "flower exhibition" is closer.
19:34:39 <atriq> Nah, the Chelsea Flower Show is a thing
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19:39:48 <fizzie> For context, YLE (the Finnish national broadcast company) is showing 38 first episodes of the David Suchet Poirot TV show, two/weekend.
19:40:20 <atriq> He was leaning out his window
19:40:31 <atriq> To see if the bread was being made
19:41:39 <fizzie> Yes, that happened too.
19:41:55 <fizzie> Though it was already some weeks ago.
19:42:56 <fizzie> The TV adaptations seem to switch things around quite a bit. I think this Chelsea Flower Show thing was originally a Marple story.
19:43:32 <atriq> ...that's the only Poirot ending I know
19:43:46 <atriq> My gran always flicks because she's seen them before
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19:45:02 <fizzie> I've seen these before a long enough time ago that I don't remember them; but I've reread them more recently. At least there's the "let's see how much they changed" element of surprise, though.
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19:47:43 <atriq> elliott, did you start the fortress yet?
19:47:58 <elliott> ping me later at night and I will
19:48:13 <atriq> But later at night I'll be asleep!
19:49:05 <Phantom_Hoover> never go to sleep the day before you intend to wake up
19:49:24 <elliott> i feel as if Phantom_Hoover is mocking me
19:52:49 <atriq> elliott sleeps on a cycle of weeks, not hours
19:53:00 <fizzie> The lion sleeps tonight.
19:53:12 <atriq> fizzie, but that's in the jungle!
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20:06:08 <atriq> You heard him, ais523
20:08:09 <Arc_Koen> random thought: befunge with the additional constraint that instructions that have already been executed are treated as no-ops
20:08:37 <Arc_Koen> so you'd have to replicate using g and p or something
20:09:02 <atriq> Consider that it takes at least one step to write one cell
20:09:05 <Arc_Koen> I've seen a Befunge-93 program which replicated itself six times
20:09:13 <Arc_Koen> well it did have intern loops to do that replication
20:09:20 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:09:27 <Arc_Koen> yeah ok that's a pretty good argument
20:09:35 <atriq> So, as that's the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM
20:09:51 <atriq> You're going to be destroying instructions faster than you can generate them
20:10:14 <Arc_Koen> soon there'll be a negative amount of instructions!
20:10:44 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:10:58 <Arc_Koen> ok so I've got to think about another way to limit flow control
20:11:24 <Arc_Koen> that would make self-modification necessary and not just as data storage
20:11:54 <Arc_Koen> wait, I actually wonder how Befunge can ever be tc
20:12:04 <Arc_Koen> if the size of integers on the stack is bounded
20:12:25 <Arc_Koen> then p and g can only access cells which are in the boundaries
20:12:38 <Arc_Koen> even if you take the 80*25 limitation out
20:12:50 <Arc_Koen> well I guess I should take a better look at funge-98
20:13:06 <Arc_Koen> (but not before sheppard saves the galaxy once or twice)
20:15:00 <Arc_Koen> last sg-1 episode they flied to atlantis, blew up a wraith ship, accidentally destroying an invincible ori ship from the other galaxy in the process
20:15:32 -!- nooga has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
20:15:43 <Arc_Koen> that's gotta be a supervillain team-down or something
20:16:09 <Arc_Koen> and then last atlantis episode there were REPLICATORS
20:16:19 <Arc_Koen> it's so great my lines have started to sync!
20:16:45 -!- quintopia has joined.
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20:54:16 * oerjan just realized a simple solution for broken html in websites
20:54:38 <nortti> care about sharing it with us?
20:54:44 <oerjan> all we have to do is convince google to, like, halve their page rank.
20:55:08 <oerjan> *poof* nearly all get corrected.
20:55:23 <nortti> does google pass html validator?
21:09:09 -!- rapido has joined.
21:10:57 <rapido> I've invoked the wrath of the mathematicians with the following esoteric statement: "let's get rid of zero!"
21:11:13 <rapido> see: http://scientopia.org/blogs/goodmath/2012/11/27/lets-get-rid-of-zero/
21:11:34 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
21:11:38 -!- oerjan has kicked rapido rapido.
21:11:46 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
21:13:52 <Bike> «An Account is balanced when Debit and Credit are equal. Such a balanced Account can be interpreted as (being in the equivalence class of) a zero but we won’t.» beautiful
21:17:12 <kmc> what's the history here
21:18:01 <Phantom_Hoover> idiot invents new number system, acts like he's fixed some glaring flaw in arithmetic
21:19:11 <kmc> no i mean what did rapido do here before
21:19:27 <kmc> if being a crackpot were a crime in #esoteric then surely the channel would be empty
21:20:10 <HackEgo> 2011-04-20.txt:21:50:49: <rapido> and you define a function that takes x^x - it is still finite - but slow
21:22:44 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20529
21:23:21 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
21:23:30 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
21:23:56 <elliott> i demand oerjan remains op
21:24:01 <Bike> «<rapido> pikhq: i don't see it as a problem - i see it as a opportunity» i like this guy a lot
21:27:13 <pikhq_> Goodness, that guy was fun. Terrible, but fun.
21:27:31 -!- rapido has joined.
21:29:43 <rapido> anyone ever considered the factoradic number system?
21:30:41 <oerjan> rapido: depends what you mean by factoradic
21:31:01 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's a swedish word. the domain is nauru in the pacific, iirc
21:32:12 <rapido> i'm a Dutch finitist: all this started with Brouwer of course
21:32:49 <rapido> of course lazy evaluation if not very finitist
21:34:41 <oerjan> well lazy evaluation is approximately codata, codata is constructive, does that mean it's also finitist?
21:35:08 <rapido> oerjan: hmm, but what about lazy infinite lists?
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21:35:43 <rapido> i'm still struggling with the evaluation model
21:35:44 <oerjan> rapido: that's codata. you can ask to get any finite index, and that can be finite to compute.
21:36:22 <rapido> yeah, i read about that - i don't really grasp it
21:36:58 <oerjan> codata means you can always go one level deeper in finite time, or approximately so.
21:37:05 <elliott> oerjan: well if you are finitist enough then the set of indices is finite.
21:37:32 <elliott> oerjan: that wasn't a joke...
21:37:40 <rapido> i think codata are actually streams
21:37:42 <rapido> see: http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/ralf.hinze/publications/CEFP09.pdf
21:37:54 <rapido> is that a correct assumption?
21:37:55 <elliott> more like streams are a type of codata...
21:39:44 <rapido> Phantom_Hoover: "thus it's bullshit, amirite?" - no, i didn't give it the thought that it needs
21:40:29 <rapido> elliott: i'm all for stream algebras: how do they match with codata?
21:41:55 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
21:42:02 <rapido> or are codata more general than streams?
21:42:29 <oerjan> an infinite binary tree is also codata, for example
21:43:08 -!- Bike has joined.
21:45:54 <rapido> oerjan: a stream of ever growing binary trees?
21:46:52 <oerjan> i guess you could encode it that way.
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21:47:29 -!- Bike has joined.
21:48:30 <oerjan> there's probably always a way to encode things as a stream if you make the encoding convoluted enough.
21:49:19 <kmc> big ass power outage in my neighborhood
21:49:28 <kmc> the power went out at work and everyone was like "... guess i'll go home now"
21:50:13 <rapido> anyone willing to give me an esoteric idea on a number system that really rocks?
21:50:40 <olsner> rapido: like using pi or e as the base?
21:51:16 <rapido> something like that yes!
21:51:46 <rapido> factorial numbers have a mixed base
21:52:14 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:52:18 <rapido> so numbers are boring?
21:52:43 -!- Bike has joined.
21:53:07 <atriq> Base Ulysses S Grant
21:54:11 <rapido> aha, getting more interesting
21:54:31 <Bike> quater-imaginary's pretty neat, though probably old hat in the doubtless thriving Weird Number Representations community
21:55:25 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, been done
21:56:11 <oerjan> shouldn't have needed to calculate it, in fact.
21:56:27 <rapido> octonions with an quartenion base and beyond!
21:57:17 <Bike> sedenions are the future
21:57:18 <rapido> (i'll drop the exclamation marks, they look silly)
21:58:21 <Phantom_Hoover> i prefer the 32ions because they are totally algebraically uninteresting
21:58:49 <rapido> yeah, they look rather not working
21:59:05 <Bike> but they aren't power associative, so i don't think using them as radices would work well (ha)
21:59:25 <rapido> Bike: that's a good one!
21:59:39 <kmc> they form a non-associative semicategory
21:59:41 <rapido> oops, exclamation mark - sorry
22:00:11 <Bike> what's a good one
22:00:24 <rapido> "but they aren't power associative, so i don't think using them as radices would work well (ha)"
22:03:27 <elliott> challenge: come up with a structure that doesn't form a category (VERY HARD)
22:03:45 <atriq> elliott, Stonehenge?
22:04:25 <Bike> what are the arrows of the category of dendrites
22:04:44 <atriq> Thoughts about arrows
22:05:35 <Bike> oh wow whoops i was almost taking this seriously for a second.
22:06:04 <atriq> About 80% of what I say is intended as a joke
22:06:10 <atriq> Including that, and this.
22:07:52 <rapido> the joke language that takes itself seriously for 80%
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22:32:20 <pikhq_> When umount blocks for no reason.
22:32:58 <Vorpal> pikhq_, there are certain parameters to it that may help you
22:33:06 <Vorpal> pikhq_, also I presume you checked lsof?
22:33:21 <Vorpal> (or fuser, whichever you prefer)
22:33:44 <monqy> elliott: have you still not started the succession game....
22:33:45 <Vorpal> pikhq_, try umount -r ?
22:34:20 <Vorpal> or umount -f if it is a network filesystem
22:34:41 <Vorpal> pikhq_, also umount -l might work for you
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22:35:11 <Phantom_Hoover> before you say you have no idea how to play df: neither does elliott!
22:35:28 <monqy> elliott seems to have more of an idea than i do!!
22:37:34 <elliott> I already asked monqy to join
22:38:52 <monqy> how fast does it grind to a halt
22:39:23 <monqy> as in memory leakage wise
22:42:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: mummy ice elementalist
22:42:17 <elliott> monqy: it has limited memory use so it just GC-pauses
22:43:45 <monqy> expert musu play here
22:44:25 <elliott> monqy: have you guessed the AI rule
22:44:27 <elliott> hint: it's simpler than it looks
22:44:42 <monqy> it's sort of hard with how often it pauses
22:50:10 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
22:53:36 <oerjan> boily chickens out again
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23:12:10 <rapido> time relatively flies when you're having fun
23:12:39 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that's what night means
23:13:25 -!- hagb4rd2 has joined.
23:13:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: btw i'm thinking of banning dfhack use :,)
23:13:51 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:14:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what if i force you to termcast the terminal running dfhcak
23:14:42 <elliott> and if you type in any commands
23:14:45 <elliott> i make a new brainfuck derivative
23:16:37 -!- rapido has quit (Quit: rapido).
23:17:03 <elliott> this is why you cannot be trusted
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23:58:26 <Arc_Koen> "In Mascarpone, an interpreter is a map that takes symbols to operations, and an operation is a sequence of symbols that is given meaning by some interpreter.
23:58:26 <Arc_Koen> Of course, this is a circular definition, but that doesn't seem unreasonable"
23:58:37 <Arc_Koen> well Ocaml doesn't seem to agree
23:59:37 <oerjan> circular type? just add a datatype definition for symbol i assume...
00:00:02 <oerjan> actually why would that be necessary...
00:00:10 -!- Robdgreat has left.
00:01:07 <oerjan> ...there's not mascarpone on the wiki.
00:01:17 <Arc_Koen> http://catseye.tc/projects/mascarpone/README.markdown.html
00:02:35 <oerjan> "New operations can be defined as strings of symbols, and these symbols are given meaning by an interpreter that is "captured" in the definition, similar to the way that lexical variables are captured in closures in functional languages."
00:03:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yeah, gimme a few minutes
00:03:32 <oerjan> i think that means you can cheat by having it map to a function instead.
00:03:47 <oerjan> and i vaguely recall the implementation did that, or was it emmental...
00:04:07 <Arc_Koen> well implementing emmental was surprinsigly easy
00:04:19 <Arc_Koen> you just stored new symbols as a list of symbols
00:04:38 <Arc_Koen> and when you're looking for the definition of a symbol, you look for it in the list of definitions
00:05:10 <Arc_Koen> and when you've find it, you look for the definition of each symbol in the definition, in the tail of the list of definitions
00:05:21 <Arc_Koen> mascarpone is slightly more tricky
00:05:35 <Arc_Koen> I was planning to have some kind of functions yes
00:05:59 <oerjan> this reminds me of some of ais523's problems with Feather.
00:06:18 <oerjan> that is also ridiculously meta-circular.
00:07:39 <Arc_Koen> btw I have no idea what "the way that lexical variables are captured in closures in functional languages" is
00:08:31 <Arc_Koen> can you tell me more about feather?
00:09:17 <monqy> not even hackego can
00:09:46 <Phantom_Hoover> but seriously, feather's a vague concept wrapped in years of in-jokes
00:09:48 <Bike> i think the meaning there is that interpreters "close over" operations in that you can't get the operation "out" of the interpreter except in the way specified in that interpreter's semantics
00:09:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:10:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
00:11:41 <Arc_Koen> but it's the interpreter that is captured in the operation
00:12:22 <Bike> oh, yeah, other way around
00:12:28 <Arc_Koen> the way I see it an interpreter is a (symbol * operation list) list
00:13:00 <Arc_Koen> and an operation is (symbol list) * interpreter
00:13:01 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: yeah that doesn't work for the bottom interpreter
00:13:30 <Arc_Koen> so interpreter would be something like Null | Initial | New of (symbol * operation list) list
00:13:39 <Arc_Koen> so technically it's potentially not infinite
00:13:51 <Arc_Koen> but I have a hard time explaining that to ocaml
00:14:16 <Arc_Koen> because there's no equivalent to the "let rec x = f(y) and y = g(x)" for types
00:14:44 <Arc_Koen> that is, if I define operations first, ocaml is gonna tell me it doesn't know what "interpreter" means
00:14:44 <oerjan> it is probably better to see an operation as some function performing whatever action the operation actually should perform.
00:14:56 <oerjan> and i would guess that's what the implementation does.
00:14:56 <Arc_Koen> yeah, ok, I'll try to do it that way
00:15:02 <Bike> hm, perhaps i'm misunderstanding the page, but it seems just like reified environments
00:15:15 <Arc_Koen> I don't want to look at chris' implementation before I do my own
00:17:04 <Bike> wait, how do you put strings on the stack?
00:17:22 <Bike> oh, wait, nevermind, it's obvious.
00:21:49 <Arc_Koen> btw the wiki seems to handle the /// page badly
00:22:16 <Arc_Koen> that is, "Slashes" is the redirect and /// the page, so /// is categorized, but links to /// directly don't work
00:23:30 <oerjan> @tell atriq <atriq> My son looks a bit like me, he can put away the plates after dinner now thanks to edwardk! <-- hum...
00:23:55 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i sometimes nag elliott about that.
00:24:02 <kmc> shachaf: someone is porting Mosh to AIX
00:24:11 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: not in the main namespace of esolang
00:24:29 <elliott> It's about me being irresponsible.
00:24:41 <oerjan> as long as we agree on that!
00:24:47 <shachaf> kmc: How's the Android port doing?
00:24:48 <elliott> kmc: is mosh available for plan 9 yet
00:24:55 <elliott> actually mosh does something that plan 9 should never be made to do
00:25:46 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: it used to work at the time /// was a featured language, but somehow it broke again.
00:25:49 <kmc> shachaf: somebody has a fork of connectbot that does mosh
00:25:51 <kmc> elliott: which
00:26:14 <kmc> also did you see http://content.dell.com/us/en/enterprise/d/campaigns/xps-linux-laptop.aspx
00:26:27 <kmc> it's an ultrabook-ish laptop from dell that comes with ubuntu
00:26:48 <kmc> and is also like all cloud and shit
00:27:46 <oerjan> elliott: by upgrading, i assumed?
00:28:02 <shachaf> What's with the resolution?
00:28:24 <elliott> oerjan: I changed the config
00:29:25 <elliott> Arc_Koen: "I'm actually not sure what concatenative exactly mean". it means that syntactic concatenation denotes semantic composition
00:29:49 <elliott> broadly, it means that if you get two valid programs and append their sources, the meaning of the resulting program is the function composition of those two programs
00:30:02 <elliott> (in a traditional stack language, your semantics are a function from stacks to stacks)
00:30:02 <Bike> 'nothing more'? but that's cool
00:30:08 <Bike> something something monoids
00:30:23 <elliott> so if you have 3 3 + that's the composition of the program that takes a stack and pushes 3 to it, that same program again, and the program that takes two elements off the top of the stack, adds them, and pushes the result back
00:30:32 <Arc_Koen> yes yes that's the idea in carriage
00:30:34 <elliott> which gives you a program which pushes 6 to a stack
00:30:48 <elliott> Bike: I don't think you need an identity for this to be well-defined, actually
00:31:11 <Arc_Koen> but I mean, apart from possible nameclashes in more complex languages
00:31:29 <Arc_Koen> I think that many many languages are concatenative
00:31:59 <elliott> many actual real programming languages?
00:32:20 <elliott> I guess you can sort of argue that C is sort of concatenative kind of, but not really
00:32:57 <Arc_Koen> well the fact that you need a function called main is embarrassing
00:34:32 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott why do i get the sense you are not doing anything relating to dwarf fortress
00:35:20 <oerjan> i guess ocaml fits better than C
00:35:38 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: a minute ok
00:35:47 <oerjan> hm wait what about imports
00:35:55 <oerjan> or can ocaml have those anywhere
00:36:23 <oerjan> haskell must have them at the top, alas
00:36:30 <oerjan> and also has that pesky main
00:36:40 <Arc_Koen> Ocaml is better than Haskell THERE YOU HAVE IT
00:37:16 <oerjan> i assumed that was so you could chase imports without reading the whole file
00:37:19 <elliott> i am glad haskell makes you organise imports reasonably
00:37:25 <elliott> oerjan: well haskell has to process modules to parse
00:37:48 <oerjan> well that's a separate last parsing step now
00:37:59 <Phantom_Hoover> so guys do you all know about alonzo church's son dating haskell curry's daughter
00:38:16 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: vaguely rings a bell
00:38:22 <monqy> I think I've heard of it before
00:38:43 <kmc> shachaf: you should be able to query the unicode character database via DNS
00:39:00 <Bike> where are the CS paparazzi when you need 'em
00:39:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that is the coolest thing ever
00:39:55 <shachaf> kmc: Any idea why UnicodeData.txt is incomplete?
00:39:57 <Arc_Koen> both superturing's parents are functional?
00:40:14 <kmc> what do yo umean
00:40:33 <shachaf> Doesn't contain a bunch of codepoints.
00:41:26 <shachaf> I'm referring to ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt
00:41:37 <shachaf> Where else should I get my up-to-date Unicode information?
00:44:14 <pikhq_> That is a weird-looking character.
00:44:50 <shachaf> OK, 人 is also not in there.
00:44:58 <pikhq_> (which is of course 人 + 中)
00:45:17 <shachaf> You'd think U+4EBA would be there, right?
00:45:28 <shachaf> It's missing all those what'sitcalled characters.
00:45:50 <pikhq_> Yeah. 人 was definitely in the first Unicode version with CJK.
00:46:00 <pikhq_> The typical kindergartner knows it.
00:46:08 <elliott> Only some of these characters display here. :(
00:46:09 <kmc> oh that's not actually a big box?
00:46:18 <kmc> i guess i got a double width replacement box :3
00:47:35 <shachaf> pikhq_: Maybe it's just not part of UnicodeData.Txt
00:48:12 <shachaf> ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/CJKRadicals.txt seems to have it.
00:48:28 <pikhq_> Makes sense. It *is* a radical.
00:48:49 <shachaf> Can't I get one file with all the codepoints in a uniform format?
00:49:02 <shachaf> I thought UnicodeData.txt was supposed to be complete!
00:50:56 <elliott> how about some more minutes
00:51:20 <shachaf> zomg ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/BidiMirroring.txt
00:51:33 <shachaf> I feel like I should've known about that.
00:52:47 <kmc> wtf "PARAPHRASE BRACKET"
00:52:50 <kmc> who uses that
00:56:09 <shachaf> ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/NamesList.txt
00:56:12 <shachaf> Maybe that's the file I need.
00:56:23 <shachaf> Of course I'll need to write a more complicated program to process that. :-(
00:57:49 <Bike> I'm not sure I understand what @/expand is for in macarphone.
00:58:13 <kmc> i like the idea of a kid who loves Japan and always reads about Japan on the Internet (like you do) but doesn't have Japanese fonts
00:58:21 <kmc> and so he thinks that Japanese people use a writing system where you put four hex digits in a box
00:58:24 <kmc> and learns to read this
00:59:23 <elliott> kmc: that sounds like the plot to a really bad short story
00:59:47 <kmc> better as a minor character detail in a story
00:59:59 <kmc> are the han characters in unicode ordered in any particular way?
01:00:05 <kmc> by stroke or something
01:00:10 <shachaf> They're ordered by codepoint.
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01:01:03 <shachaf> 19F0KHMER SYMBOL TUTEYASAT * represents the second Ashadha in the lunar calendar during the Adhikameas leap year
01:01:15 <shachaf> Lots of details UnicodeData.txt doesn't have.
01:01:43 <shachaf> @+These form a set of four quine corners, for quincuncial arrangement. They are also used in upper and lower pairs in mathematic, or more rarely in editorial usage as alternatives to half brackets.
01:01:58 -!- jfischoff has quit (Quit: jfischoff).
01:02:16 <shachaf> These form a set of four corner brackets and are used editorially. They are distinguished from mathematical floor and ceiling characters. Occasionally quine corners are substituted for half brackets.
01:03:17 <shachaf> This style is sometimes known as open-face or blackboard-bold. Double-struck symbols already encoded in the Letterlike Symbols block and omitted here to avoid duplicate encoding. Considerable variation in font style is acceptable, as long as the glyphs retain the visual element of doubled strokes.
01:03:34 <shachaf> 1F374FORK AND KNIFE = restaurant, meal * glyph may show a fork and spoon * glyph may show a crossed fork and knife * glyph may show a fork and knife with a plate
01:04:26 <Bike> i like all the emoticons, myself
01:04:35 <Bike> iirc there are some ones for catgirlfaces
01:04:44 <elliott> monqy: do you want to be in the succession fort......
01:06:45 <oerjan> <elliott> kmc: that sounds like the plot to a really bad short story <-- reminds me of a part of the plot to a book series about swedish (i think?) immigrants to america. one guy got this swedish-english phrase book and learned it by heart. only when he tried to speak with americans did he discover that english isn't spoken as it is spelled.
01:07:30 <Lumpio-> But does the name list have 1F4A9 PILE OF POO?
01:08:54 <shachaf> 1F4A0 DIAMOND SHAPE WITH A DOT INSIDE = kawaii, cute * meaning of cuteness is based on association of glyph with shape of a flower
01:10:11 <kmc> oerjan: haha
01:16:06 <elliott> monqy: i want to start the fortress but it's impossible to play df properly without listening to its background music but i don't want to :{
01:16:24 <monqy> elliott: what if you get over your issue w/ its background music
01:17:19 <oerjan> those things take time, monqy
01:18:01 <oerjan> that explains why the dorfs don't all croak immediately
01:52:12 <oerjan> typical, i get at least 40 http://ompldr.org/vZ2kycw/iqtest.PNG
01:52:59 <shachaf> monqy: lens now allows you to implement unsafeCoerce
01:55:20 <oerjan> and i can find no reasonably canonical interpretation that gives one of the numbers listed.
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01:55:41 <madbr> I kinda wonder... are there any ARM systems-on-a-chip that can do über-low-latency sound processing?
01:56:06 <oerjan> (the question is "how many squares do you see", btw)
01:57:46 <kmc> madbr: there are SoC's with integrated DSP
01:58:41 <kmc> a combination of that and running a RTOS on the ARM part should suffice for many things
01:59:45 <madbr> isn't the main CPU a lot faster?
01:59:57 <kmc> depends what you are doing i guess
02:00:11 <kmc> i don't know really
02:01:56 <oerjan> elliott: some small electric pixies explained it to me.
02:04:15 <oerjan> i wonder if i may be a housecat http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/121129.html
02:04:18 <madbr> kmc: sound synthesis
02:04:55 <madbr> physical modelling algo with a delay line, bandpass filter, nonlinearity, exciter plus a bunch of effects
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02:06:45 <HackEgo> c00kiemon5ter: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:07:13 <Sgeo__> elliott, monqy Fiora there was an update a bit earlier
02:07:57 <oerjan> it has occured to me that the itflabtijtslwi deadfish could be converted to use decimal (and so allow bigger numbers) if i could just find a way to do multiplication in a fixed number of substitution commands.
02:08:12 <madbr> kmc: tbh I've never worked with DSPs
02:08:25 <madbr> kmc : mostly because you never get access to them anyways
02:09:55 <oerjan> which i _think_ i can reduce to sorting a list of unary numbers
02:13:08 <oerjan> which i still don't know how to do.
02:21:26 <madbr> yeah on cell phones it's almost impossible to get low latency
02:22:00 <madbr> they are built for angry birds and youtube, not for music
02:22:17 <madbr> (well, making music that is... consuming music is a-ok of course)
02:22:29 <madbr> and even angry birds is a stretch
02:22:36 <pikhq_> And they're not that good at any of it.
02:22:39 <Gregor> Welp, got my new business cards.
02:22:43 <Gregor> Printed on the back of playing cards.
02:22:52 <pikhq_> Gregor: I saw. Those things are awesome.
02:23:32 <pikhq_> Shoulda made it pony themed.
02:23:59 <Gregor> I think “they're playing cards” is plenty eccentric.
02:24:11 <pikhq_> I mean "instead of playing cards".
02:24:34 <Bike> can you actually play cards with 'em?
02:24:43 <pikhq_> But whatever. There's many ways of being eccentric, and all of them pretty nice.
02:25:16 <pikhq_> Bike: Except that he won't have a deck for long.
02:25:28 <Bike> That's ok, he can just downgrade to Pinochle.
02:26:01 <Gregor> It is a real, complete deck of playing cards, yes, but I don't intend to use them as such since that would defeat the whole “business card” thing ;)
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02:35:42 -!- kmc has set topic: Hagfish are usually not eaten owing to their repugnant looks, as well as their viscosity and unpleasant habits. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
02:36:47 <kmc> The hagfish is kept alive and irritated by rattling its container with a stick, prompting it to produce slime in large quantities. This slime is used in a similar manner as egg whites in various forms of cookery in the region.
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04:31:45 <kmc> that is the most pretentious use of diæresis i have seen
04:31:47 <pikhq_> Well, if "noël", why not "poëtic"?
04:32:02 <kmc> i don't think even the new yorker would do that
04:32:18 <elliott> kmc: Do you know of a good XCompose configuration file?
04:32:21 <pikhq_> The excuse for "noël" is that it's spelled that way in French.
04:32:23 <elliott> ISTR the default one is really awfully terrible.
04:32:43 <kmc> http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2010/10/typing-mathematical-characters-in-x.html
04:33:03 <kmc> the default one is pretty good as far as actual letters, i've found
04:33:06 <shachaf> mathematical characters such as ꙮ
04:33:39 <kmc> but i want to use e.g. da do de di for ♬♩♫♪
04:33:53 <kmc> shachaf: i don't have that one
04:34:04 <kmc> i did add the unaccented greek alphabet though
04:36:04 <kmc> copy pasta
04:36:12 <madbr> elliott: you could use the spanish keyboard tbh
04:36:22 <pikhq_> elliott: I use the default.
04:36:26 <madbr> qwerty and has a lot of common accents
04:36:35 <pikhq_> elliott: I guess I'll have to ask you if you find a better one.
04:36:37 <elliott> that's not really my use-case
04:36:51 <elliott> pikhq_: i think i found one that redid the whole thing from scratch with the one problem that i didn't like the combos it used
04:36:59 <kmc> if you just want accented latin characters, the default xcompose is fine
04:37:35 <kmc> don't think it covers vietnamese, but most european languages using the latin alphabet
04:37:37 <pikhq_> Yeah. You can type "Erdős" just fine that way.
04:37:43 <elliott> I would kind of like LaTeX support :P
04:37:54 <pikhq_> Doesn't do Vietnamese, yeah.
04:37:56 <kmc> elliott: there's a gtk input mode
04:38:05 <kmc> or... whatever thingy gtk uses
04:38:07 <kmc> yeah probably
04:38:18 <kmc> insert gnome bashing here
04:38:22 <shachaf> mathematical characters like ☭
04:38:39 <pikhq_> 'Course, Vietnamese is a Roman alphabet rendering stress test.
04:38:44 <kmc> shachaf: you should write a c compiler named cccp
04:39:02 <kmc> oh it is already a research group name
04:39:16 <kmc> bet it's awkward when they get visiting postdocs from baltic states
04:39:18 <Bike> kmc: how do you tell what Multi_key is in your setup, do you know?
04:39:31 <kmc> well, it's just an X keysym
04:39:35 <kmc> you can bind it with xmodmap
04:39:48 <kmc> but i guess for the default you woud have to look in the keyboard layout definition files
04:39:59 <pikhq_> I suspect by default it's unbound.
04:40:17 <kmc> or just open xev and then mash all keys
04:40:25 <Bike> yeah that was my previous method
04:40:40 <Bike> i already have win as hyper. i think i'm running out of weird modifier keys to use.
04:40:52 <kmc> on thinkpads you can use Fn as Multi_key
04:40:54 <elliott> i wonder what to put compose on
04:40:57 <elliott> i use right-alt as my xmonad key
04:41:04 <elliott> I guess I could use right win
04:41:04 <kmc> because it sends a key event if you press and release it without pressing anything else
04:41:18 <Bike> oh, it does? that's news to me
04:41:18 <elliott> kind of awkward to press tho :(
04:41:30 <elliott> i should buy a happy hacking keyboard so all the keys i can possibly press are readily accessible
04:41:43 <pikhq_> Yeah, but composing glyphs is a relatively infrequent thing.
04:41:47 <elliott> and switch to colemak and become a hermit and retreat into the antarctic wastelands and kill myself
04:41:49 <Bike> i suppose i could use H-Menu instead of Menu for wm shit
04:42:33 <kmc> i have left ctrl for opening browser tabs, left win for opening native apps, left alt for alt, right alt for WM actions, right win for Compose, and right Ctrl for nothing because it's a fucking pain to hit
04:42:48 <kmc> i also have Fn send Esc if you press and release, but I don't use it much
04:42:51 <pikhq_> elliott: Alas, I don't have the option.
04:42:54 <kmc> there is a hack to use Caps Lock as both Ctrl and Esc
04:43:02 <kmc> should switch to that
04:43:08 <kmc> i mainly use Ctrl-[ for Esc these days
04:43:38 <elliott> pikhq_: well antarctica is a little inaccessible I admit, but suicide?
04:43:55 <pikhq_> elliott: I was referring to the entire list.
04:44:06 <pikhq_> Suicide is essentially always an option, of course.
04:44:14 <kmc> colemak is for people who think dvorak is too mainstream
04:44:35 <Bike> what a terrifying thought
04:44:38 <pikhq_> A profoundly suboptimal option, but nevertheless.
04:44:43 <elliott> well if I am going to switch to an obscure keyboard layout
04:44:53 <elliott> then I better switch to the one whose superiority to QWERTY I am most convinced of
04:45:22 <kmc> i think it's pretty clear that both dvorak and colemak are superior to qwerty
04:45:46 <Bike> oh, are there good studies now?
04:45:47 <kmc> maybe colemak is slightly better than dvorak, maybe not, buti don't think it matters
04:46:00 <kmc> and dvorak is much more standard
04:46:03 <elliott> "I'd better switch to the one that I am most convinced is best"
04:46:25 <elliott> well I don't use other people's keyboards very much but it's awkward enough to switch to Dvorak on those that I'd rather just remember how to type with QWERTY
04:46:34 <kmc> it is not that awkward
04:46:48 <kmc> if i have to use someone else's computer for more than 5 minutes i would usually want to switch it
04:46:56 <elliott> I mean I already use xmonad and customise the programs I use fairly heavily
04:46:58 <kmc> switching to dvorak takes about 30 seconds in most operating sysem
04:47:03 <elliott> so someone else's computer is always going to be awkward
04:47:18 <kmc> winter is always going to be cold so you might as well go outside naked
04:47:19 <elliott> some people restrict themselves to almost-stock settings and the like to avoid that painfulness and that's fine but those aren't my priorities
04:47:58 <elliott> kmc: I don't find the gain compelling enough for the (expected) loss in the vast majority of my computer-using time given that the scenario it helps with is already moderately painful
04:48:36 <kmc> when i went to the computer store to evaluate laptop keyboards, it was very useful that i could switch them to dvorak
04:49:16 <pikhq_> "i went to the [...] store" — kmc, noted jokester
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04:53:11 <elliott> kmc: yo I'm gonna practice being a keyboard nerd since I know quite a fair bit about keyboards and it'd be a shame not to turn this knowledge into smugness:
04:53:20 <elliott> kmc: you don't have to type on laptop keyboards to know they're all shit
04:53:40 <kmc> sure but i still want to know which one is least shit
04:54:00 <shachaf> kmc: You should get a Model M.
04:54:10 <elliott> but they're seriously overrated
04:54:15 <elliott> (I typed on a Model M for >a year)
04:54:58 <kmc> i used a real model m for a few years and a unicomp model m clone for a few more
04:55:23 <elliott> even ignoring practical constraints like it has a ton of useless keys and is fucking huge and makes a racket, the buckling springs are just way too heavy really
04:55:42 <elliott> unless you have mechanical fingers of steel or whatever I'm pretty sure another keyboard will be better for typing
04:56:11 <kmc> but it's the mythical keyboard of Real Hackers from before I was born so it must be good
04:56:24 <shachaf> You know what's overrated?
04:56:29 <shachaf> Not having → and End keys.
04:56:32 <Sgeo__> Calling things overrated?
04:56:36 <kmc> meh screw keyboards, you should become a gun nerd
04:56:52 <kmc> there you can argue the superiority of designs almost 100 years old
04:57:00 <elliott> kmc: it's probably easier to kill people with a model m than a gun
04:57:12 <kmc> call the mythbusters
04:57:23 <elliott> this seems like a good time to bring up how much I fucking loathe numpads
04:57:27 <elliott> and wish they would retroactively never have existed
04:58:15 <madbr> shachaf: oh got yeah I can't live without home/end
04:58:36 <madbr> I have to admit that numpads... suck
04:58:57 <pikhq_> elliott: They're there for those people that want to input lots of numbers but can't be bothered to learn to touch type.
04:59:16 <elliott> well for spreadsheets/accounting and stuff I assume they are more efficient than the numpad
04:59:21 <kmc> if you only input numbers all day, presumably it is less finger movement
04:59:22 <elliott> but it should really just be a separate device
04:59:23 <Bike> well, my laptop keyboard is numpad-free
04:59:24 <Bike> suck it haters.
04:59:33 <elliott> and indeed you can buy USB numpads!
04:59:39 <elliott> so all we have to do is bring USB back in time
04:59:50 <kmc> indeed you can find USB numpads for free in basements
05:00:42 <madbr> bike: it's when they start removing other stuff like home, end, pgup, pgdown, F keys, delete, insert...
05:00:57 <Sgeo__> Without a numpad it's harder to play NetHack!
05:01:03 <Sgeo__> For people not used to vi-style keys
05:01:09 <Bike> hjkl is the future, sgeo.
05:01:13 <shachaf> Those aren't people, Sgeo__.
05:01:28 <quintopia> irc is the messaging system of the future
05:01:44 <pikhq_> Insufficiently XJSONML
05:01:45 <Bike> irc navigated via hjkl.
05:02:01 <pikhq_> ... I'm sorry for inventing that
05:02:05 <madbr> bike: you can't do that, hjkl types letters
05:02:16 <madbr> has to be reverse T shaped
05:02:18 <quintopia> madbr: you hit i before you want letters
05:02:22 <Bike> no, see, you just get a virtual keyboard, which you move around on with hjkl
05:02:46 <madbr> IJKL would be acceptable
05:02:54 <madbr> HJKL is the wrong shape
05:02:57 <elliott> colemak tries to keep zxcv in place
05:03:01 <elliott> if i was making a keyboard layout
05:03:06 <elliott> i would try to keep hjklyubn in the same place
05:03:16 <kmc> and you would squander half of the home row
05:03:34 <pikhq_> Because he'd make the left side chorded.
05:03:35 <madbr> hjkl belongs on VT terminals
05:03:46 <kmc> 'j' is one of the least used letters in English and it has the best possible spot in QWERTY
05:04:20 <Bike> but what about words like "jalopy"
05:04:35 <pikhq_> My name starts with the most important QWERTY letter!
05:04:35 <kmc> the only less used letters are x, q, and z
05:04:42 <kmc> you should feel special then
05:05:05 <pikhq_> Josiah "pikhq" Worcester does.
05:05:36 <shachaf> kmc: "p. sure the most important qwerty letter is h"
05:06:48 <elliott> for once i agree with quintopia
05:06:51 <pikhq_> I did stick it in my nick.
05:06:52 <elliott> seriously q is the best fucking letter in the alphabet
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05:07:40 <madbr> elliott: which is why no language has that sound?
05:07:42 <kmc> elliott: how do you type that upside down 'd'
05:07:46 <quintopia> agreement? this is too much. i may have to recant in order to not agree with elliott
05:08:00 <madbr> even jews have given up on q
05:08:03 <quintopia> but it's hard to recant a plain fact
05:08:33 <elliott> they can be as wrong as they want
05:08:36 <elliott> q will still be the greatest
05:08:42 <elliott> it doesn't even matter how it's pronounced
05:09:23 <pikhq_> I vote we replace "k" with "q".
05:10:35 <pikhq_> minnna, qe- wo qiȳu- tè qaqou!
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05:38:10 <Sgeo__> Why can't I su nobody?
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05:57:34 <kmc> jerk elliott
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06:20:13 <elliott> kmc: quelliott is like qualia but all the qualia are horrible.
06:20:55 <elliott> kmc: Also how come the incorrect URL highlights I was talking about stay *even when irssi scrolls*?
06:21:03 <elliott> Like, they move up with the scrolling.
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06:24:31 <elliott> kmc: How do you do diæreses with the default compose setup?
06:24:39 <elliott> compose " letter doesn't seem to -- oh
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06:30:36 <Sgeo__> Oh: I talked to that kid again today
06:31:05 <Sgeo__> The one who thinks prepared queries don't fully protect against SQL Injection
06:31:31 <Sgeo__> His new argument: The null byte breaks stuff, and according to him, PHP and most other languages except for Pascal use C-style strings
06:31:55 <Bike> it must be sad to be trapped in the seventies
06:32:10 <elliott> the null byte "breaks stuff"
06:32:18 <Sgeo__> elliott, not his words, sorry
06:32:18 <elliott> because somehow your input string gets a null byte in the middle of it
06:32:28 <elliott> despite your strings being null-terminated
06:32:36 <Sgeo__> elliott, assumed to be because of malicious user
06:33:00 <elliott> i'm saying it is impossible to have a nul in the middle of a null-terminated string
06:34:03 <Sgeo__> I checked out and noted to him that the SQLite and MySQL prepared query C-level APIs, for the parts where you give the API a string, it asks for a length (SQLite makes it optional either give length or assume nul-terminated string)
06:34:30 <Sgeo__> He said he definitely did attack a PHP script that used MySQL prepared queries with a null byte
06:36:25 <elliott> not sure why you are bothering to argue with this idiot
06:38:26 <Sgeo__> Oh, also with the null-terminated thing: He talked about using the null byte to do weird file system stuff. I said that was an OS-level issue, he said no because it works on both Windows and Linux
06:38:46 <Sgeo__> Found a page in the PHP documentation that mentions it, he just sort of said that it was wrong
06:38:56 <elliott> not sure why you are bothering to argue with this idiot
06:39:17 <pikhq_> Sgeo__: "Weird file system stuff"?
06:39:27 <Sgeo__> pikhq_, not his words, sorry
06:39:45 <pikhq_> Like... Terminating a path early?
06:40:21 <elliott> not sure why you are bothering to argue with this idiot
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07:22:30 <elliott> kmc: it would be cool if mosh provided fully local line editing falicities controlled by special control codes!!! i anticipate the chance of this feature getting added to be 0
07:22:34 <elliott> wow that sentence is awkward
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10:49:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: guess what i didn't do
11:08:40 <Sgeo__> I found a definition of ? that tricked me for a short while
11:09:03 <Sgeo__> It's a bit cheaty, but it doesn't even work anyway
11:10:01 <Sgeo__> If I did the math right (I didn't write it down), a ? a = a + 2 and a ? a ? a = a + 3
11:10:13 <Sgeo__> Unfortunately a ? a ? a ? a != 4
11:11:08 <Sgeo__> monqy, a vague notion of some operation, such that addition is sort of like repeated ?
11:11:35 <Sgeo__> I think it's kind of fun that that given operation works for a?a and a?a?a but not a?a?a?a
11:11:48 <monqy> so what are the properties said ? has to satisfy
11:12:59 <Sgeo__> Ideally, repeating it should result in addition, and it shouldn't be too trivial
11:13:14 <monqy> in what sense / in what sense
11:13:49 <Phantom_Hoover> i think Sgeo__ is unhappy with the successor function and wants to invent his own
11:13:51 <Sgeo__> Hard to pin down what I think is too trivial, but as far as the first in what sense: a?a = a+2; a?a?a = a+3; a?a?a?a = a+4, etc.
11:14:14 <monqy> ummm the successor function is unary Phantom_Hoover
11:14:54 <elliott> you have to give things up monqy .............. to achieve ur dreams
11:15:27 <monqy> heck it's!! not even associative!!!
11:15:32 <Sgeo__> I don't think I'm too worried about commutativity. But that definition is definitely too trivial. (Also wrong, but hey... although, come to think of it)
11:15:54 <monqy> is not associative what you mean by wrong
11:16:10 <Sgeo__> What I mean by wrong is a?a = a+1 when I was looking for a?a = a+2
11:16:42 <Sgeo__> Although, I guess looking for an operator where a?a = a+1 might be more fruitful... and again ignoring trivial things >.>
11:16:47 <elliott> a ? b = Sa unless this is the first ? and then it's a instead
11:16:58 <elliott> definition of ?: a ? a = a + 1
11:17:09 <monqy> a ? ... ? a = n where n is the number of a appearing in there
11:17:27 <elliott> 'a promising start' -people
11:17:48 <elliott> Sgeo__: ps what associativity is ?
11:18:20 <Sgeo__> Doesn't matter, I guess
11:18:45 <Sgeo__> Also, I think f(a,b) = ln(e^a + e^b) is a fun operator
11:19:07 <Sgeo__> I was sort of hoping that that or a variation of it could be used for this, but it's fun in and of itself, I think
11:19:35 <monqy> how about the "cool associativity" where a ? a ? a ? a = (a ? a) ? (a ? a)
11:20:00 <elliott> the Double Cool Associativity whereby a ? a ? a = a + 3
11:20:21 <elliott> the real joke: people who make a distionctioneoi rjowrjeoi wjeroi jweo fjowfj iowjf iowjef owjf kfwpfl [wlf lwf[p lw] r;f]3[r; ]f/; f ew,f ;lwker lp[ro[ 3- 2o=- =`= -=` 0-3i -4 k1o
11:20:21 <monqy> associativity where my dreams come true??? yes please
11:20:30 <elliott> monqy: do you ever give up
11:20:37 <elliott> that was me giving up on writing that sentence
11:20:56 <monqy> what was the sentence...............................
11:22:09 <fizzie> If you have the properties that a ? a = a + 2 and a ? a ? a = a + 3, then (a ? a ? a) ? (a ? a ? a) = (a + 3) ? (a + 3) = a + 3 + 2 = a + 5 -- but you also wanted a ? a ? a ? a ? a ? a in general to be a + 6, which is perhaps a bit of a problem.
11:22:54 <monqy> i don't think sgeo cares about associativity though, which is weird given the way he was writing his stuff!!!
11:23:04 <fizzie> Also going backwards from a?a?a = a+3, a?a = a+2, I suppose then a = a+1.
11:23:05 <monqy> "it's almost like he hadn't thought it through"
11:23:32 <elliott> fizzie: imo Double Cool Associativity solves these problems? and more?
11:23:58 <fizzie> Double Cool probably solves anything, it's so cool.
11:24:23 <elliott> fizzie: other solutions: infinity number system where every number is infinity
11:25:24 <Sgeo__> Well, is it really a big deal to say that ((a ? a) ? a) ? a not always = (a ? a) ? (a ? a)
11:25:37 <elliott> sgeo i think the a = a + 1 thing might be more of a problem
11:27:01 <monqy> it's unfair to say that a = a + 1 when he hasn't even explained his notation
11:27:12 <monqy> maybe a = a + 2!!!!!
11:27:43 <elliott> if we say that + is defined in the "usual" manner
11:28:01 <elliott> a + Sb = a ? (a + b) -- adjust for associativity
11:28:30 <elliott> i dont quite know why you wouldnt just go with a ? a = a + 1 tho
11:28:40 <elliott> not like 1 is privileged as a base-case for repeaty thirng rj jwraw klsf aew; ';.
11:28:44 * Sgeo__ can live with a ? a = a + 1
11:28:52 <monqy> then whats a ? (a + 1)!!!!!!!
11:29:43 <Sgeo__> Reason I was thinking a ? a = a + 2 is because a + a = a * 2
11:31:17 <elliott> i'll let fizzie figure it out
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11:46:02 <oklofok> "<Sgeo__> Well, is it really a big deal to say that ((a ? a) ? a) ? a not always = (a ? a) ? (a ? a)" if you don't have associativity, computations become harder usually.
11:57:42 <Sgeo__> Then (a+1)?(a+1) = a+1+1=a+2
11:58:10 <Sgeo__> But, ideally, (a?a)?a = a+2 = (a+1)?a
11:58:23 <Sgeo__> So (a+1)?a = (a+1)?(a+1)
12:00:38 <oklopol> oh was the idea to change the definition so that a?a = a+1 for all a but you still get some nontrivial operation?
12:00:44 <oklopol> so that a?b may not be a+1
12:01:12 <oklopol> then why do you say a+2 = (a+1)?a
12:01:37 <elliott> oklopol: because the point is to have addition be "repeated ?"
12:01:45 <elliott> so you have to define addition inductively by ?
12:02:24 <oklopol> in any case is there an associative operation on N such that a?a = a+1 for all a?
12:02:36 <Deewiant> And the end result will probably be the successor operation, ignoring the second argument of ? :-P
12:02:52 <Sgeo__> oklofok, there's an operation
12:03:08 <Sgeo__> Not sure if it's associative, but
12:03:18 <Sgeo__> log_2(2^a + 2^b) = a?b
12:03:22 <oklopol> if you want to have addition be repeated ?, then i'm pretty sure it has to be successor . takeleftarg
12:04:22 <Sgeo__> a?a = log_2(2*2^a) = log_2 2 + log_2 2^a = 1 + a
12:04:29 <elliott> Deewiant: that's ruled out by Sgeo__'s undefined nebulous triviality rule
12:05:41 <oklopol> then (a?b)?c = log_2(2^log_2(2^a + 2^b) + 2^c) = associative
12:06:07 <elliott> but is (a?a)?a = a+2?????????????? the mysteries
12:06:30 <oklopol> oh i though he checked that
12:06:56 <Sgeo__> No. At least, I'm fairly sure the answer is no. I came up with the general thing against the whole ? idea when wondering about this particular operation
12:06:57 <elliott> god (W|A) doesn't seem to think so either
12:07:33 <fizzie> You would have to have that (a+1)?a = a+2 thing if you wanted (a?a)?a = a+2.
12:07:34 <oklopol> so you have an operation that's associative such that a?a = a+1
12:09:46 <oklopol> in general, (a+n)?a = a+n+1 for all a with that idea
12:09:56 <oklopol> i mean what fizzie just said
12:10:29 <oklopol> and we require nothing for a?b where b is less than a
12:11:15 <oklopol> so that's the characterization right, any binary function such that a?b = a+1 when b \leq a
12:11:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ye but im tired right now so do you really want me to set up the fortress in that state
12:11:48 <elliott> consider how horrifying awake elliott fortresses are
12:12:06 <oklopol> in particular, you can make it commutative right
12:13:00 <oklopol> so, this is the unique commutative binary operation f such that addition is repeated f i guess
12:13:30 <oklopol> we could publish this in the journal of ridiculous theorems
12:14:52 <Deewiant> oklopol: If it's repeated with both arguments being the result of the previous, there are others
12:16:02 <oklopol> so my requirement was a + b = ((((a?a)?a)?a)?...)?a where a appears b+1 times on the right
12:16:45 <elliott> p. sure Sgeo__ meant what oklopol meant
12:16:47 <oklopol> and then Sgeo__'s is a commutative associative operation
12:16:57 <oklopol> or pretty much anything else.
12:17:07 <Deewiant> I just wasn't sure what you meant with "addition is repeated f"
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12:17:30 <oklopol> but Sgeo__ already solved it for that def
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12:17:58 <elliott> Deewiant: that was just a random string of symbols
12:18:30 <oklopol> elliott's just a very lucky guy
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12:38:36 <elliott> fizzie: do you know of a thing to get outgoing messages automatically split when they're too big w/ irssi
12:38:46 <elliott> i found this ancient perl script to do it but idk if it's any good or whatever
12:38:56 <fizzie> scripts.irssi.org splitlong.pl is what I use.
12:40:09 <fizzie> Except I use it with a /set splitlong_max_length 400 which is overly cautious, but the default -- which is calculate the exact limit programmatically -- sometimes miscalculates stuff due to things like freenode cloaks.
12:40:45 <fizzie> (The "fis@iris.zem.fi" it believes will be in the message is shorter than the real "fis@unaffiliated/fizzie".)
12:41:06 <elliott> what i found was http://scripts.irssi.org/html/autowrap.pl.html
12:41:39 <elliott> fizzie: solution: get rid of your cloak since you have a cool hostname??
12:42:12 <fizzie> Well http://scripts.irssi.org/scripts/autowrap.pl and http://scripts.irssi.org/scripts/splitlong.pl they're quite similar, except autowrap always uses that limit of 400, it seems.
12:42:21 <fizzie> Slightly curious that I hit the same number independently.
12:42:27 <elliott> wow, Debian has literally a kajillion identds
12:43:15 <fizzie> And it binds to event_send_text vs. sig_command_msg so it might affect some cases where the other would not, but it's split everything I've typed just fine.
12:43:36 <fizzie> The cool hostname unworks if I connect to a non-IPv6 server these days. :/
12:44:08 <elliott> fizzie: I connect with this fancy SSL thing. And then authenticate with this fancy SASL thing.
12:44:12 <elliott> It feels like the future times a billion.
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12:44:21 <elliott> my server is the one doing the connection
12:44:28 <elliott> i could make it connect with ipv6
12:44:36 <elliott> i don't know if i can handle that much future
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12:45:51 <elliott> oklopol: http://www.worldipv6launch.org/measurements/
12:46:43 <elliott> fizzie: do you use a specific identd
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12:46:51 <elliott> I wrote one once but I can't be bothered to use something that isn't apt-get!!
12:47:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the future briefly ceased being forever
12:47:50 <fizzie> elliott: I seem to be using oidentd, but I don't have a very special reason for it.
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12:49:46 <fizzie> http://outside.hut.fi/2_days.png GRAPH
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12:50:18 <Deewiant> Why do I get an IP address instead of a hostname
12:51:03 <ion> elliott: I use oidentd.
12:51:59 <fizzie> Deewiant: Perhaps Freenode does the bidirectional check?
12:52:03 <elliott> It's cold in the other H town too but probably less cold.
12:52:04 <fizzie> 190.188.75.109.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer 109-75-188-190.reverse.cust.as47215.net.
12:52:07 <fizzie> $ host 109-75-188-190.reverse.cust.as47215.net
12:52:07 <fizzie> Host 109-75-188-190.reverse.cust.as47215.net not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)
12:52:22 <Deewiant> Why do I have a hostname that doesn't work
12:52:22 <elliott> I see fizzie isn't using a secure connection.
12:52:42 <fizzie> That should go back to 109.75.188.190 so that everyone would accept the reverse as genuine.
12:52:47 <elliott> (How do I get irssi to prefer IPv6 servers for the irc.freenode.net thingy?)
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12:53:19 <fizzie> You can say -6 to /connect and /server.
12:53:37 <ion> I tried SSL/TLS with IRC, but WeeChat’s upgrade without dropping connections (as well as Irssi’s for that matter) doesn’t work with encrypted connections.
12:54:23 <elliott> ion: For irssi that's not a problem since it doesn't get new releases.
12:54:35 <elliott> fizzie: is there a way to -6ify my existing server entry without retyping my settings :(
12:54:38 <Deewiant> Oh noes, you'll have to disconnect for a few seconds! YOU MIGHT MISS SOMETHING IMPORTANT
12:54:51 <Deewiant> elliott: /save and edit the config file?
12:54:59 <elliott> Deewiant: like a commoner!
12:55:12 <fizzie> Maybe if you add the server with the same name, it only edits the explicitly specified settings? Then again, maybe NOT.
12:55:15 <ion> deewiant: It’s not about missing messages, it’s about unnecessary quit/join spam.
12:55:24 <elliott> Oh, I should set up the verify-server-SSL-key thing too.
12:55:27 <elliott> What if someone IMPERSONATES FREENODE?
12:55:33 <ion> Especially if you use nightly builds and upgrade daily.
12:55:48 <fizzie> I did think about maybe SSLing, I think bip does that. But it doesn't do the SASL auth.
12:55:49 <Deewiant> I think that's a reasonable source of quit/join spam
12:55:50 <elliott> (it is so about missing messages)
12:55:59 <ion> elliott: What if YOU HAVE CHATTED ON A FAKE NETWORK ALL THIS TIME?
12:56:08 <fizzie> What if I'm a fake fizzie too.
12:56:17 <fizzie> You should "verify my key", if you know what I mean.
12:56:21 <fizzie> (I don't know what I mean.)
12:56:59 * ion signs fizzie’s public key, if you catch my drift
12:58:50 <elliott> I think if I mosh into my dtached irssi which connects with IPv6 ~verified~ SSL and authenticates with SASL using an identd that might just be too many things and I would explode.
12:58:59 <fizzie> My key has 18 signatures. And apparently expired in 2006.
12:59:06 <fizzie> (I don't get much PGP'd mail.)
12:59:09 <elliott> Oh hey, /server -6 irc.freenode.net DTRT.
12:59:15 <elliott> It just didn't show it as DoingTRT in /server list.
12:59:22 <fizzie> Or maybe that's the creation time.
13:00:28 <elliott> Oh, oidentd looks Totally Bloated.
13:00:33 <elliott> Hierarchical configuration files and everything!
13:01:35 <fizzie> elliott: That's weird; "/server blah" is supposed to just connect to blah, not edit the server list.
13:02:01 <fizzie> ("/SERVER disconnects the server in active window and connects to the new one. It will take the same arguments as /CONNECT.")
13:02:44 <Deewiant> I never liked that /server command in irssi. I was always worried that I'd accidentally disconnect.
13:02:49 <elliott> fizzie: Or was it /server add?
13:02:55 <elliott> Apparently it was: /server add -6 irc.freenode.net
13:02:56 <fizzie> That would make more sense.
13:03:05 <fizzie> It's nice that it did the right thing.
13:03:22 <elliott> Nicer than I've grown to expect of this client.
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13:04:31 <ion> elliott: The right thing to do with Irssi is to add a network (/network add Freenode IIRC), add a server to that (/server add -auto -network Freenode -6 irc.freenode.net IIRC) and connect using the network name (/connect Freenode IIRC).
13:05:08 <ion> That’ll let you add alternative servers in case one is down and it will also connect correctly on startup.
13:05:14 <fizzie> I believe this was already done, and the point was just to modify the settings of the server.
13:05:26 <ion> And you’ll be able to add channels to be joined automatically to networks.
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13:05:59 <elliott> ion: My network has one (1) server.
13:06:02 <elliott> I never anticipate it having any more.
13:06:10 <fizzie> My freenode server has the host name "freenode", and my ircnet server is called "ircnet". (The bouncer listens to all connections in the same port and differentiates networks by the password, but irssi refuses to accept multiple identical host:port servers, so I have to use dummy names and /set proxy_address 127.0.0.1, which is stupid.)
13:06:28 <elliott> fizzie: Do people actually use IRCNet?
13:06:48 <ion> IRCnet is probably the most popular network among Finns.
13:07:43 <Deewiant> And now, a languages joke: http://i.imgur.com/fIB5o.png
13:07:49 <fizzie> http://irc.netsplit.de/tmp/networks/top10_2012u.png -- it's still quite high up there.
13:08:18 <fizzie> Beats Undernet and EFnet in users quite clearly.
13:08:48 <fizzie> Also Freenode has an interestingly strong week-periodic thing, stronger than the other networks.
13:09:03 <fizzie> I suppose it's because SERIOUS BUSINESSMEN use it for SERIOUS BUSINESS.
13:09:36 <oklopol> i've used quakenet, freenode, ircnet, ef
13:09:41 <Deewiant> I thought EFnet was at least bigger than Undernet.
13:09:52 <fizzie> I've used those same networks as o.
13:10:12 <Deewiant> I'm currently on QuakeNet, FreeNode, IRCnet, EFnet, and OFTC, and I've also used Undernet and maybe Rizon.
13:10:31 <fizzie> I'm no longer in anywhere else than Freenode and IRCnet. :/
13:11:27 <Deewiant> And I've been on Ustream and other specific things with non-IRC-client programs.
13:11:41 <oklopol> i'm on free and quake because those are the only places where people get sad if i don't show up on channels, and i can't manage to make irc autoconnect when my computer explodes and i have to restart.
13:12:09 <elliott> fizzie: Can you write an identd for me?
13:12:48 <elliott> What it should do is if you have an ~/.identrc it runs that passing the server that's asking for the identity, and uses its output as the identity.
13:12:56 <Deewiant> oklopol: http://webchat.xs4all.nl/ I think
13:12:57 <fizzie> I don't think I can be bothered.
13:13:07 <elliott> fizzie: Okay, but how about: reconsider?
13:13:13 <oklopol> so how many shoes do you people have, i apparently have like 10 pairs
13:13:17 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's listed as a network, though.
13:13:24 <fizzie> Deewiant: That one connects to real networks.
13:13:36 <Deewiant> fizzie: Oh, darn, missed that.
13:13:42 <Deewiant> I only read most of the left column.
13:13:58 <fizzie> It seems to mean irc.webchat.org.
13:14:03 <oklopol> most of them don't even have a sole
13:14:14 <fizzie> Which is some kind of a thing.
13:14:17 <Deewiant> And there's also www.webchat.org, which is its homepage.
13:14:25 <fizzie> Yes, but I don't understand it.
13:14:39 <elliott> Deewiant: Do YOU use an identd??? Wait, maybe you answered already.
13:14:54 <Deewiant> elliott: (Can't you tell with /whois?)
13:15:06 <elliott> Deewiant: That would be... cheating.
13:15:06 <fizzie> I've used the XS4ALL webchat from some HTTP-only airports.
13:15:46 <Deewiant> oklopol: Not enough: I need to buy new shoes ASAP because there is lots of snow everywhere and all my current shoes result in wet socks in such an environment.
13:16:18 <fizzie> Deewiant: Speaking of whois, what's this as47215.net all about? It seems to be some kind of a German webhost/colo place.
13:17:04 <Deewiant> fizzie: Yes, I have a virtual server from DE.Punkt.
13:17:14 <elliott> maybe you should live somewhere it doesn't snow
13:17:16 <oklopol> and i actually prolly have better suited shoes but changing shoes is such an emotional rollercoaster.
13:17:33 <Deewiant> fizzie: I (think I) changed the RDNS now via the Web UI, but if it worked it hasn't propagated yet.
13:18:25 <elliott> Why does freenode even bother to make ident requests?
13:18:26 <Deewiant> Well, I can query their nameservers directly, of course; it did work.
13:19:37 <elliott> I guess I'll install oidentd since nullidentd requires inetd. But still, ew.
13:21:09 <fizzie> oklopol: I have something like five or six pairs of shoes maybe, if you count everything? But only one pair of borderline sensible winter ones.
13:21:30 <fizzie> All the shoes are kind of different type of shoes, I don't really have redundant shoes.
13:21:31 <elliott> I have one (1) pair of shoes I actually wear.
13:22:07 <fizzie> My wife takes care of the redundant shoe ownership tasks in our household, which is I think a reasonably common setup.
13:22:15 <Deewiant> I have three pairs of outdoor shoes currently, two of which are redundant in the sense that I use them only when it's warm, and interchangeably.
13:22:35 <elliott> fizzie: If alt+<direction> produces "OD" and "OC" for left and right respectively, what's misconfigured?
13:22:38 <elliott> I'm so sick of this stuff not working.
13:22:44 <elliott> It never seems to get better.
13:23:44 <fizzie> elliott: I don't know how you managed to make the alt key not work, to be honest.
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13:24:13 <elliott> fizzie: Come on, it's like, not worked out of the box in Ubuntu for years and stuff.
13:24:26 <elliott> This is one of the most persistently broken things.
13:24:41 <elliott> I think it might be mosh's fault.
13:24:57 <Deewiant> They seem to produce [D and [C for me in zsh, and do some kind of cursor movement in bash.
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13:25:42 <fizzie> Alt in general, including keys in irssi, have worked out of the box for me pretty much always. Though in bash alt-arrows seem to insert [D and [C for me.
13:25:52 <fizzie> I don't know what they should do there.
13:26:09 <elliott> http://www.freenode.net/certfp/certfp-irssi.shtml guys what is this about
13:26:20 <elliott> it seems to be a totally different thing to the things i have been setting up
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13:26:27 <elliott> it's... setting yourself up a certificate so freenode can verify you??? what is this
13:26:44 <fizzie> Yes, it seems to be a client certificate.
13:26:47 <elliott> that i have a script handle for me
13:26:50 <fizzie> I did not know they even did client certificates.
13:27:04 <elliott> it looks sort of like you can get passwordless logins by doing this
13:27:12 <elliott> but i have no idea how it differs from sasl in terms of goodness or whatever
13:27:23 <fizzie> It's X.509, it's like X-X-Xcellent.
13:27:55 <fizzie> "CertFP allows clients connected via SSL with a client SSL certificate to authenticate to services using the SHA1 fingerprint of their client SSL certificate. One must have registered with services."
13:28:02 <fizzie> I wonder if this is some kind of a new dealie.
13:28:33 <elliott> this seems possibly fancier than sasl??
13:28:55 <fizzie> It seems vaguely sensible in the sense that if you're doing SSL already, it's sort of in the same rigamarole.
13:29:10 <fizzie> I wonder if they've managed to not screw up the cloak thing when authenticating over that thing, though.
13:29:29 <fizzie> Since the usual nickserv-pass-in-PASS thing they did screw up.
13:29:33 <elliott> Cloaks work for me with SASL if that helps?
13:29:40 <elliott> And I've used NickServ pass in server password for forever.
13:30:24 <fizzie> SASL is I think the only guaranteed thing.
13:30:47 <fizzie> With server-pass it sometimes doesn't manage to enable the cloak before joining, if services are being laggy.
13:31:02 <elliott> I hear SASL is sometimes non-guaranteed i.e. times out or something.
13:31:19 <fizzie> I guess that might happen. But when it works, it always happens before anything else can happen.
13:32:07 <elliott> Now, if you want to verify the Freenode server SSL certificate against a certificate authority (CA), then you’ll need to download the CA certificate from the authority that signed the server certificate. In this case, its Gandi.net, and their CA certificate file can be found here: http://crt.gandi.net/GandiStandardSSLCA.crt. However, using the file in its native DER format for Irssi wasn’t working for me. So, using openssl, I converted the bina
13:32:14 <elliott> be found here: http://crt.gandi.net/GandiStandardSSLCA.crt. However,
13:32:17 <elliott> using the file in its native DER format for Irssi wasn’t working for me. So, using openssl, I converted the binary
13:32:20 <elliott> DER data file to PEM format, at which the Freenode certificate would properly verify:
13:32:23 <elliott> Sometimes I just don't trust technology, you know?
13:32:24 <elliott> (TODO: Get that wrapping thing being a thing.)
13:33:56 <fizzie> Mhm, bip can do client SSL certificates, maybe I should also set up that Freenode thing.
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13:34:31 <fizzie> I wonder what is the difference between "local minimum found" and "local minimum possible" from MATLAB fminunc.
13:35:32 <fizzie> You are at least identd'd.
13:35:39 <elliott> And I set ssl_verify, so I assume that's... working.
13:36:15 <elliott> 13:34:21 -!- hostname : li278-81.members.linode.com 178.79.159.81
13:36:18 <elliott> That doesn't look very IPv6.
13:36:26 <elliott> (Is there a way to tell whether I'm using an IPv6 connection?)
13:36:38 <elliott> 13:34:15 -!- Your host is morgan.freenode.net[64.32.24.176/6697], running version ircd-seven-1.1.3
13:36:47 <fizzie> That doesn't look very six.
13:36:48 <elliott> I guess that isn't terribly reassuring.
13:37:04 <elliott> Is there no SSL IPv6 service or something?
13:37:17 <Deewiant> Why are you using a server in the USA?
13:37:18 <fizzie> That doesn't sound like it'd make sense.
13:37:31 <elliott> Deewiant: I'm just using irc.freenode.net, man.
13:37:34 <elliott> fizzie: Wait, what doesn't?
13:37:49 <elliott> Also did you know: a whole two (2) people have edited the Esolang wiki anonymously using an IPv6 address.
13:37:57 <fizzie> Not having SSL for the IPv6.
13:38:02 <Deewiant> elliott: Yeah, and I question the sensibility of that.
13:38:20 <elliott> Deewiant: Well, what would you rather I do? List a bunch of servers manually and keep that up to date?
13:38:27 <fizzie> I'm using chat.eu.freenode.net; it's a compromise.
13:38:38 <elliott> This server is in London anyway, that's basically the US.
13:39:00 <Deewiant> I think I'm also using chat.eu.freenode.net, possibly with one manually listed server before that.
13:39:17 <shachaf> elliott: did you know someone could get the nick ehird right now if they wanted to
13:39:19 <elliott> "Shame they don’t allow auto-identification using client-side SSL certificates, like OFTC does." "@bloogle Yeah, but the SASL auth is every bit as good, if not better if using DH-BLOWFISH"
13:39:21 <fizzie> Okay, I also have lindbohm manually before it, but it's all cyclic so it's not really "prioritized".
13:39:39 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/NXbZ -- see which continent is more like future.
13:39:41 <elliott> shachaf: I don't expect anyone except maybe shachaf t otry that.
13:40:17 <elliott> Well, you just looked up the last time ehird was logged into, so you must have some interest in the name.
13:40:33 <shachaf> elliott: By the way, is there an equivalent of Bazaar for a Setter?
13:41:12 <shachaf> So that Setter s t a b = s -> Foo a b t, of course.
13:42:24 <fizzie> Hey, there's a rajaniemi.freenode.net that's in some "TKK Comnet/FUNET" block, in Finland.
13:42:26 <elliott> Sounds like you just wrote it?
13:43:13 <elliott> fizzie: I bet you can't change just the server field of an irssi server. :(
13:43:19 <shachaf> elliott: Is there a name for it? Does it have interesting features?
13:44:01 <fizzie> elliott: I bet so too, since it'd identify the server to change by the host:port pair.
13:44:35 <elliott> I set ssl_verify without ssl_cert.
13:45:32 <Deewiant> elliott: It sounds like it'll then try to verify the server's certificate against who-knows-what certificates. Ideally the ones in /usr/share.
13:46:59 <elliott> Deewiant: I set ssl_capath to /etc/ssl/certs.
13:47:11 <elliott> So is that, like, the right thing?
13:47:57 <Deewiant> It has the standard set of trusted certs, at least.
13:48:42 <elliott> /server add -6 -ssl -ssl_verify -ssl_capath /etc/ssl/certs -auto -network freenode chat.eu.freenode.net 6697
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13:49:43 <elliott> I wonder what on earth is wrong.
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13:52:23 <oklopol> someone should add ithkuil to the joke Deewiant linked
13:52:48 <elliott> I think instead Deewiant should help me get IPv6 working.
13:54:09 <Deewiant> I don't have IPv6 connectivity on any machine I own. I could set it up in my LAN but I haven't bothered.
13:54:17 <Deewiant> I don't think we have it at work either.
13:55:02 <shachaf> elliott: IPv6 is the devil.
13:55:23 <shachaf> By having fewer IP addresses than humans, we keep the resource valuable.
13:55:38 <shachaf> "ipv4 addresses: earth's greatest export?"
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13:56:46 <fizziew> But what about THE INTERNET OF THINGS?
13:57:14 <fizziew> Also what is this stupid delay in reconnecting, I have the stupidest bouncer, it's stupid.
13:57:42 <fizziew> I'm MISSING MESSAGES here. Not that it's about that.
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13:59:26 <elliott> fizzie: OK, so you get to help me instead!!
13:59:33 <elliott> To wit: WHY ISN'T IT WORKING FIX IT.
13:59:35 <fizzie> (Shocking news: it was myself who was the stupid.)
14:00:28 <fizzie> I don't know why it is not working, but why don't you just "nc -6 chat.eu.freenode.net 6667" to see if that goes anywhere?
14:00:41 <fizzie> Also I have a CLIENT CERTIFICATE now.
14:00:51 <fizzie> I am also using a SECURE CONNECTION.
14:01:19 <Deewiant> You are also using a Lithuanian server instead of rajaniemi.
14:02:15 <elliott> Deewiant: I use chat.eu.freenode.net and you still complain?
14:02:46 <elliott> 13:49:04 -!- - Welcome to barjavel.freenode.net in Paris, FR, EU.
14:02:53 <elliott> I... don't think that's Lithuania, Deewiant.
14:03:00 <fizzie> It was about me, I think.
14:03:23 <fizzie> Deewiant: I put {rajaniemi, lindbohm, chat.eu} to the list, and apparently the cycling thing was at chat.eu at the time when I fixed the stupid bit.
14:04:52 <elliott> Deewiant: OK but I actually am fizzie.
14:05:14 <fizzie> Oh no, am I elliott then? I... I'm not sure I want to. It sounds difficult.
14:05:31 <shachaf> fizzie: I think elliott isn't telling the truth.
14:05:41 <elliott> fizzie: Is this client certificate stuff easy to set up?
14:05:42 <shachaf> Because Finland ≠ Hexham, right?
14:06:12 * elliott wonders which of 70 flavours of netcat this is.
14:06:55 <fizzie> elliott: It was reasonably easy for bip, I don't know about irssi. Probably it's just one setting, since Freenode doesn't actually verify the client certificate, it just uses the fingerprint from it.
14:07:15 <Deewiant> Ithinks because recently openbsd-netcat started conflicting with GNU netcat in Arch and I went with GNU and it says the same thing.
14:07:33 <elliott> Deewiant: Well, *I*thinks no GNU software would say "nc -h for help".
14:07:42 <elliott> And not even accept --help.
14:07:52 <Deewiant> elliott: Well, you didn't say that bit.
14:08:19 <elliott> Deewiant: Re the client setting: I was thinking more of the making a certificate part.
14:08:21 <fizzie> (The one I tried with was the netcat-openbsd of Ubuntu something-at-work, and it has a -6.)
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14:09:39 <elliott> So um this thing works fine, I am tempted to: blame the whole SSL thing?
14:10:10 <Deewiant> Turn off SSL and see if it works in irssi?
14:11:53 <fizzie> I got a v6'd SSL connection just fine, though. But maybe it's worth a try.
14:12:02 <elliott> Deewiant: What if people spied on me?
14:12:13 <Deewiant> If you're only here, you're publically logged anyway.
14:12:50 <fizzie> You could also try /connect -6 or something. Though the -6 setting *should* end up in there for listed servers too, I think.
14:13:05 <Deewiant> elliott: Don't be elsewhere while you're testing.
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14:14:04 <fizzie> Deewiant: Incidentally, since you found out about Lithuania... does that client certificate fingerprint also show up in /whois to others?
14:14:37 <Deewiant> fizzie: No, only that and "is using a secure connection" apart from the usual.
14:16:00 <shachaf> elliott: Is it also a comonad?
14:16:05 <shachaf> elliott: When a ~ b, that is.
14:17:14 <Deewiant> I think that it is once again blizzard time. -->
14:17:30 <fizzie> It's like bullet time, except you dodge snowflakes.
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15:05:25 <atriq> I like today's Girl Genius
15:05:25 <lambdabot> atriq: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:06:18 <atriq> @tell oerjan it was something about Plated letting us traverse self-similar descendants
15:07:37 <shachaf> atriq: Did you hear: upon was renamed to onceUpon, and uponTheDeep was renamed to upon?
15:09:24 <atriq> This makes it somewhat harder to use lens to sing Adele songs in Haskell!
15:11:59 <atriq> Although slightly easier to recite Grimms' Fairy Tails
15:12:46 <quintopia> fairy tails are tastier than gator tails
15:17:27 <atriq> I'll trust you on that, having never tasted either
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15:43:42 <Arc_Koen> I can't escape ' in my terminal any longer
15:43:53 <Arc_Koen> for instance echo '\' prints a backslash
15:44:31 <nortti> it should do that, I think
15:45:25 <Arc_Koen> yeah, but the " quotes usually cause a lot of problems
15:45:41 <Arc_Koen> for instance if the string I want can be interpreted as bash commands or something
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16:05:53 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, OK so seriously, are you ever going to start that fort.
16:07:08 <fizzie> Deewiant: Blizzard time indeed; I just waited 35 minutes on the Konemies bus stop, from 17:25 to 18:00, because the 17:35 510 failed to apparate at all. (Unless it's this one and really late.)
16:08:24 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: I tend to use 'blabla'\''bleble' if I want the string blabla'bleble as an argument.
16:08:49 <fizzie> Admittedly the '\'' sequence looks quite crummy, but it works.
16:09:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i've been busy ok
16:09:47 <elliott> fizzie: hey can you @tell elliott get ipv6/client certificates working
16:10:15 <fizzie> @tell ellitt get ipv6/client certificated workdjsjud
16:11:03 <elliott> lambdabot doesn't let you self-@tell!!
16:11:13 <fizzie> Hey my battery outruns.
16:11:26 <quintopia> elliott: can't you /nick and self-tell
16:11:28 <fizzie> @tell elliott hhhey get ipv6/client certificated workdjsjud
16:12:10 <elliott> fizzie: that's about as good as my typing, so it's good enough
16:12:10 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:12:17 <elliott> quintopia: ye but that is like spammy & inelegant & stuf
16:13:11 <quintopia> so is the method you used, but whatev
16:13:16 <shachaf> @ty ?spammy & ?inelegant & ?stuf
16:13:17 <lambdabot> (?spammy::a1, ?inelegant::a1 -> a, ?stuf::a -> b) => b
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16:52:58 <Deewiant> fizzie: I only had to wait 10 minutes, missing one 103 and the second coming late; fortunately these 10[23] buses apparate quite frequently around that time of day.
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17:03:23 <fizzie> 510 is not the most reliable bus line ever.
17:04:31 <Deewiant> By "missing one" I mean that one didn't come at all, or then it was at least 3 minutes early which I think is exceedingly unlikely in this weather.
17:04:55 <Deewiant> So there was a bit of unreliability all around.
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18:36:42 <atriq> Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
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18:38:31 <shachaf> -- | An slow, iterated SHA512 hash function to make dictionary attacks more
18:38:32 <shachaf> defaultHash a = (iterate hash a) !! 512
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18:50:48 <olsner> that makes it look like (iterate hash a) !! n = SHA-n
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18:56:59 <olsner> funny how shachaf also posted the exact same four lines in #haskell-blah
18:57:21 <shachaf> olsner: What's wrong with that?
18:58:47 <olsner> it's confusing because it resulted in slightly different conversations, only one of which contained what I thought I replied with
18:58:55 -!- Frooxius_ has joined.
18:59:09 <olsner> also, duplication annoys me
18:59:46 <ion> I don’t really see a problem with IRC crossposting when both recipients are likely to find the message interesting.
19:00:09 <shachaf> olsner: Not my fault that you subscribe to both channels. Most inhabitants of one channel don't subscribe to the other.
19:00:54 <olsner> there are like several people who are in both channels
19:01:24 <ion> I am on both channels and i didn’t get annoyed by that at all.
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19:03:20 * shachaf resists the temptation to cross-post to every channel ion is in.
19:04:14 <Gregor> “Android is upgrading… optimizing app <n> of 118”
19:04:39 <Gregor> What do you bet that “optimizing” in this context involves absolutely nothing that anyone would reasonably consider “optimizing”
19:05:42 <olsner> iirc, there is something optimization-like (or perhaps just code generation) it does to the bytecode that gets cached
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19:08:36 <FreeFull> shachaf: What function is hash?
19:09:02 <FreeFull> And it just happens to get ran 512 times too
19:10:05 <kmc> shachaf: what code is that from?
19:12:10 <kmc> they should probably use PBKDF2 instead
19:12:18 <kmc> i don't know how much it matters though
19:14:36 <shachaf> They should probably be using a number bigger than 512.
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19:18:57 <fizzie> But you can't use anything else than 512 iterations with SHA-512. It would be unseemly.
19:19:41 <kmc> shachaf: that too
19:20:40 <kmc> Django 1.4 defaults to 10,000 iterations of SHA256
19:21:12 <shachaf> They also don't use PBKDF2 or anything like that?
19:21:31 <kmc> no i mean PBKDF2 with 10,000 iterations
19:22:33 <shachaf> Er, actually, I have no idea how fast or slow PBKDF2 iterations are.
19:24:51 <kmc> yeah it is kind of low
19:26:36 <kmc> django's implementation takes 75 ms on my AMD Phenom(tm) II X6 1075T Processor
19:26:48 <kmc> is claimed to be "four times slower than openssl's implementation"
19:29:19 <kmc> i wonder if it's increased in the soon to be released Django 1.5
19:31:25 <kmc> hm bcrypt is explicitly designed to foil GPU-based attacks
19:31:48 <kmc> and small ASICs, but not FPGAs with lots of RAM
19:31:49 <kmc> http://security.stackexchange.com/questions/4781/do-any-security-experts-recommend-bcrypt-for-password-storage
19:33:08 <kmc> obviously i should do 100,000 iterations of SHA512 and then bcrypt that
19:33:11 <kmc> that's defense in depth right
19:33:26 <Bike> the maginot line of encryption
19:33:53 <kmc> information security has a lot of maginot line situations
19:34:16 <kmc> people work really hard to secure one area and then get owned by something trivial and completely different
19:42:02 <pikhq_> Gregor: It's running a device-specific optimizer pass on the bytecode, actually.
19:42:47 <pikhq_> Gregor: Swapping endianness, some constant propagation, etc.
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19:56:17 <zzo38> Do you like the symmetric variants I made which is related to some of asymmetric chess variants?
19:56:22 <shachaf> Gregor: Where should I find burritos in San Francisco?
19:56:55 <Gregor> shachaf: Literally anywhere.
19:57:25 <Gregor> Walk outside and look for a Mexican restaurant that isn't a chain. Probability is very high that you will find one within two blocks that will be good.
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19:58:19 <oerjan> happy australian mailman list reminder day, everyone!
19:58:19 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:58:24 <lambdabot> atriq said 4h 52m 5s ago: it was something about Plated letting us traverse self-similar descendants
19:59:32 <kmc> is that true for all of SF
19:59:42 <oerjan> 04:31:30: <kmc> "poëtic"
19:59:42 <oerjan> 04:31:45: <kmc> that is the most pretentious use of diæresis i have seen
19:59:42 <kmc> i want to see a taqueria density heatmap
20:01:02 <oerjan> i recall poëta being used as an example of something needing a diæresis in latin
20:01:12 <kmc> shachaf: have you seen http://www.jwz.org/images/5112789301_da50dca4bd_b.jpg
20:03:32 <oerjan> <shachaf> mathematical characters like ☭ <-- don't you know that dialectic materialism is _better_ than mathematics, duh
20:05:15 <oerjan> kmc: is the joke that tenderloin is the most crime-ridden district in san francisco, or something?
20:05:21 <kmc> that's one of the jokes
20:05:40 <kmc> i don't get them all
20:05:50 <kmc> mission is a hipster fixie
20:05:59 <kmc> noe valley is full of kids i guess
20:06:18 <kmc> castro is full of gay men who work out all the time
20:06:22 <kmc> haight is weird
20:06:46 <kmc> though i think going down those hills on a unicycle would be terrifying
20:06:52 <Bike> what is the point of fixed-gear bikes, by the way
20:07:16 <kmc> FiDi is a folding bike for people who commute by train
20:07:54 <kmc> well, having only a single gear gives you a simpler and more reliable bicycle
20:08:08 <kmc> lacking freewheeling seems less useful
20:09:12 <olsner> if they have a bike, shouldn't they just commute by bike?
20:09:38 <kmc> not 30 miles from palo alto
20:09:41 <kmc> though people do it
20:09:52 <kmc> http://sf2g.com/
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20:11:48 <kmc> i guess that is the opposite direction
20:11:55 <kmc> people who live in SF and bike to google every day
20:12:08 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> colemak is for people who think dvorak is too mainstream
20:12:16 <olsner> hmm, I thought google was already in SF?
20:12:19 <HackEgo> 858) <kmc> colemak is for people who think dvorak is too mainstream
20:12:36 <kmc> the main google office is in Mountain View
20:13:00 <kmc> which is part of the "San Francisco Bay Area" but about 40 miles from downtown SF
20:13:09 <HackEgo> 758) <kmc> haters gonna make som valid points
20:13:10 <kmc> and completely different as far as what it's like to live there
20:13:14 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, this is america, they don't like putting things next to other things
20:13:26 <kmc> well SF itself is a proper dense city
20:13:38 <kmc> but like every city (in Europe as well) it has sprawling suburbs around it
20:13:47 <HackEgo> 365) [on petrol] <ais523> oklofok: it's actually poisonous, so I advise against drinking it <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, also contains benzene, my carcinogen of choice.
20:13:50 <HackEgo> 227) <oerjan> (the former is a very deep theorem, i'd have had to read the whole book to understand it, so i didn't.)
20:13:52 <HackEgo> 851) <Phantom_Hoover> unfortunately df is not yet able to simulate norway
20:13:52 <HackEgo> 297) <crystal-cola> anyway I've stopped ``trolling'' <crystal-cola> since apparently you guys don't like me claiming obviously false and absurd claims
20:14:44 <kmc> the proper dense city part of SF is approximately a square 10 km on a side
20:17:36 <Phantom_Hoover> huh, apparently there are people who prefer their bikes not to have brakes
20:18:48 <olsner> hmm, so these chips are "fine cheese" flavored
20:21:10 <fizzie> The accomplishment of today: googled out why the VLC logo is a traffic cone.
20:21:18 <fizzie> "One day, people from the VIA association (VIA is a students' network association with many clubs ... amongst those is VideoLAN. More info here : http://www.via.ecp.fr ) came back drunk with a cone. They then began a cone collection (which is now quite impressive i must say). Some time later, the VideoLAN project began and they decided to use the cone as their logo."
20:21:26 <fizzie> Such a meaningful story.
20:22:29 <olsner> ah, I collected a cone once ... they're bigger and heavier than you think and end up being not quite as fun as you expect
20:23:23 <kmc> apparently you can write GCC plugins in Python now O_O http://gcc-python-plugin.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
20:25:44 <zzo38> Does it mean you do not have to recompile GCC if you want it to do something else?
20:29:14 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo__ You realize ? must have the property a ? (a+k) = a+(k+1) for all natural numbers k? (also you have to decide whether it should work left or right associatively, like tetration.)
20:29:46 <kmc> zzo38: that is already the case, gcc can load plugins from .so's
20:30:25 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo__ (tetration from exponentiation)
20:32:16 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo__ Sorry, k >= 2.
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20:32:48 * oerjan swats lambdabot -----###
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20:38:11 * oerjan swats everyone else for not mocking his swatting. -----###
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20:48:42 <oerjan> ok oklofok seems to have pretty much solved the problem.
20:49:19 <fizzie> That's what always happens.
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20:52:30 <Sgeo__> curses, wrote (a+b)(c+d) in a different form not requiring parentheses againn
20:52:30 <lambdabot> Sgeo__: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:53:19 <Sgeo__> Going to go back to repeatedly hitting snooze
21:02:27 <shachaf> kmc: Expr + doctest = the future
21:02:52 <shachaf> > scanl1 f [a, b, c] :: [Expr]
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21:09:45 -!- Gregor has set topic: Phantom Hoovers are usually not eaten owing to their repugnant looks, as well as their viscosity and unpleasant habits. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:30:08 <shachaf> The number of 7-character git hashes you need to get a 50% chance of collision.
21:31:01 * oerjan may have forgotten some of his powers of 2
21:34:46 <lambdabot> The operator `Control.Lens.Getter.&' [infixl 1] of a section
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22:01:00 <fizzie> The operator Control.Lens.Getter.& is a must-have.
22:06:46 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Classes.&&' [infixr 3] of a section
22:06:51 <lambdabot> The operator `Control.Arrow.&&&' [infixr 3] of a section
22:12:47 <oerjan> > False&(True&(&&)&&&(&&)&uncurry(&&&))
22:13:38 <fizzie> They are all must-haves, I see.
22:16:15 <oerjan> i cannot see any way of chaining them in order.
22:16:34 <oerjan> :t (?a & ?b && ?c &&& ?d)
22:16:36 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> b0' with actual type `Bool'
22:16:36 <lambdabot> In the second argument of `(&)', namely `?b && ?c &&& ?d'
22:16:36 <lambdabot> In the expression: (?a & ?b && ?c &&& ?d)
22:16:46 <oerjan> :t (?a &&& ?b && ?c & ?d)
22:16:47 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a0 b0 c'0' with actual type `Bool'
22:16:47 <lambdabot> In the second argument of `(&&&)', namely `?b && ?c'
22:16:47 <lambdabot> In the first argument of `(&)', namely `?a &&& ?b && ?c'
22:18:13 <olsner> :t (?a & ?b (&& ?c &&& ?d))
22:18:14 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Bool'
22:18:14 <lambdabot> with actual type `a0 b0 (c0, c'0)'
22:18:14 <lambdabot> In the second argument of `(&&)', namely `?c &&& ?d'
22:20:12 <olsner> :t ((?a & ?b &&) ?c &&& ?d))
22:20:15 <olsner> :t ((?a & ?b &&) ?c &&& ?d)
22:20:16 <lambdabot> The operator `&&' [infixr 3] of a section
22:20:16 <lambdabot> must have lower precedence than that of the operand,
22:22:47 <Sgeo__> elliott, Phantom_Hoover Fiora monqy
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22:41:49 <zzo38> Is there the program to play MOD/S3M/IT/XM samples/instruments in Csound?
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